00:00:04 <rdococ> I tried making a Sonic game in it but it was too slow
00:00:18 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: They're "markov sequences" all right, though it's not quite the most common implementation, where you have a bunch of text and then jump around; instead, it's just generating word by word from a variable-length n-gram model trained with https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN and stored in a I-think-it's-nifty-but-for-some-reason-haven't-much-seen-it-around data structure that I call ...
00:00:22 <rdococ> but it was called Quite Basic
00:00:24 <fizzie> ... a reverse-context tree for lack of a better name.
00:00:26 <fizzie> It's like a word trie except so that if your model has, say, information about the contexts "baz bar foo", "quux bar foo" and "zuul foo", the trie has the form (foo (bar (baz [..]) (quux [..])) (zuul [...])).
00:00:29 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: this is of course inspired by "halt and catch fire", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire
00:00:30 <fizzie> The idea being that it's easy to synthesize from -- you just descend the tree while reading backwards from the end of the text you've generated so far, and once you no longer find a leaf for the "next" (previous) word, you've arrived at the longest prefix in the variKN model, and can read its list of frequencies for following words.
00:00:35 <fizzie> (For extra credit, also account for backoff weights by having a probability for going back up one level.)
00:01:39 <rdococ> If I had to choose a few esoteric assembly instructions, they would be, um
00:01:48 <fizzie> For some reason most things dealing with n-gram models I've seen have tended to put things in a trie, yes, but the "right way around". Which I guess is just fine for a fixed-length model, but much less convenient for a variable-length one.
00:02:10 <rdococ> I'm in the mood to talk about numbers right now
00:03:13 <fizzie> And I had a lot of fun writing the Funge code. It's a language that's generally much easier to write than read.
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00:03:57 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Something that randomly chooses a register, and start executing the instruction at the specified address. An instruction that moves memory from a specified location to a random location somewhere else. An instruction that reads the specified memory address, and multiplies it by a random prime number. Other useless things.
00:04:44 <rdococ> we can take any condition and turn it into a number...
00:04:59 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Why not?
00:05:12 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Because @ isn't based on squaring, it's based on absing
00:06:05 <rdococ> now I want to invent one
00:06:19 <HackEgo> @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
00:06:19 <shachaf> p. sure it wasn't Sgeo__ who invented @
00:06:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Just don't make it absy, make it something new
00:06:34 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|@| = -1
00:06:45 <rdococ> but that means $ = 1...
00:07:18 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It has to behave reasonably like a number, but not quite, or else it's no fun
00:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You can do the reverse of @'s creation process to
00:08:05 * zgrep still doesn't see why |
00:08:09 * zgrep still doesn't see why |-@| = 1... :(
00:08:44 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Because |n*@| = -n, -@ = -1*a, and -(-1) = 1
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00:09:48 <boily> explore quaternions.
00:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: @ was made by taking an unsatisfiable expression and making a new number that satisfies it. The reverse is taking an expression with no solution and making a solution
00:10:06 <rdococ> should I do the inverse/
00:10:22 <rdococ> what's the notta constant?
00:11:03 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: |n*@| = -n, so |@*@| = -@... What'd I do wrong? :P
00:11:45 <rdococ> so I will make up an unsatisfiable expression
00:11:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You can also invent completely baffling things that look like numbers at first, but aren't quite
00:12:18 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's like the bigns, AKA the reals. I'll leave you to extrapolate.
00:12:43 <rdococ> plus, negative and trign?
00:12:47 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, or more accurately, 2 new signs that replace -
00:12:57 <rdococ> what are those signs called?
00:13:41 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: |n|^2 ≠ |n^2|, right?
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00:13:55 <rdococ> my new number would be %, and 0^% = 1
00:14:05 <zgrep> rdococ: Isn't that 0?
00:14:17 <rdococ> hppa: isn't that another infinity?
00:14:41 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Oh, heh. Good point.
00:14:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Though I have a nagging feeling that it's related to η
00:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You should probably give it a less mathematical name
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00:16:08 <rdococ> I was originally going for $ but way too mathy
00:16:50 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: |n^2| ≠ |n|^2 if you've got an @ somewhere in there.
00:17:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The simplest solution is x^ry = y(x+1) = xy+y, but that's a bit strange
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00:17:44 <rdococ> how'd you get that solution?
00:18:01 <zgrep> |@^2| = |@*@| = -@, but |@|^2 = 1. So |n^2| ≠ |n|^2, right?
00:18:10 <rdococ> you moved the y down like I moved the x down when I was doing 0^rx
00:18:27 <rdococ> it's interesting though
00:18:43 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's not very good (too functional, not numbery enough), but it's the best I can think of
00:19:01 <rdococ> let's think of a different simpler one then
00:20:31 <zgrep> In fact, |ab| ≠ |a|*|b| when @'s involved.
00:21:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I guess we shouldn't use ≠, we should use !<=
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00:21:50 <rdococ> looks like an infinitesimal
00:22:38 <HackEgo> [U+1D13 LATIN SMALL LETTER SIDEWAYS O WITH STROKE]
00:23:12 <rdococ> but flipped horizontally
00:24:26 <rdococ> what about xξ and yξ for different x and y?
00:25:17 <rdococ> well, 3 > 2 and 2 < 3, and 3 = 3
00:25:29 <rdococ> does ξ = ξ + x for any particular x?
00:26:46 <zgrep> What is ξ, in this case?
00:27:05 <zgrep> Ahah. So then ξ < ξ as well.
00:27:19 <rdococ> nope, that rule was broken
00:27:58 <rdococ> so does x < ξ for any x?
00:28:13 <zgrep> But if ξ > ξ... why isn't ξ < ξ?
00:28:26 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: This is me asking you.
00:28:27 <rdococ> my original idea was just ξ =/= ξ
00:29:09 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: rdococ: x : x≰x
00:29:37 <rdococ> but ξ > ξwas also yours
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00:31:06 <zgrep> |@*@*@| = -@*@... ||@*@*@|| = @, then?
00:31:23 <zgrep> Where that's [[@*@*@]] not, []@*@*@[]. :P
00:32:28 <zgrep> No, I don't want to vote more.
00:33:35 <zgrep> @|@| = -@... and |@*@| = -@... uh... :/
00:33:36 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "..."
00:34:19 <rdococ> Ω > n for any finite n, but Ω < infinity? so Ω is the largest finite number
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00:35:15 <boily> so the lambdie answers to most about anything, except @. very peculiar.
00:35:36 <zgrep> boily: I'm assuming that @'s the prefix, whatever comes after that's considered the command. But just @ is ignored.
00:36:10 <lambdabot> <no location info>: not an expression: ‘’
00:36:21 <zgrep> Huh. "@ " doesn't trigger, but "> " does.
00:37:25 <zgrep> rdococ: Becomes weird, because then Ω = x^-2
00:37:42 <zgrep> Though I guess it wouldn't be number, just an operation.
00:38:05 * zgrep has no clue what zgrep is talking about...
00:39:39 <zgrep> This look simple: -0 [something] n = 0 [something] (-1 * n).
00:39:57 <zgrep> rdococ: I... don't exactly get what that is...
00:40:33 <rdococ> hppa: I was discussing another idea for a number
00:43:09 <zgrep> How how did you get an upside-down omega. o.o
00:43:21 <HackEgo> [U+01B1 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER UPSILON]
00:45:01 <zgrep> Technically, 🐈 could work as a great name too. It would also help annoy others who want to type about it. :P
00:45:04 <rdococ> xΨ + y(1-Ψ) = random probability of being either x or y
00:45:14 <rdococ> what symbol is that? it doesn't showu p on mine
00:45:20 <zgrep> It's a unicode cat.
00:46:03 <rdococ> Ψ = random probability of being either 0 or 1
00:46:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Ψ: Doing any math involving Ψ comes at the expense of your sanity
00:46:19 <rdococ> because it is random and unpredictable
00:46:29 <rdococ> Ψ+1 = random probability of being either 1 or 2
00:46:38 <hppavilion[1]> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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00:47:06 <rdococ> doing any math with x comes at the expense of your sanity...
00:47:16 <rdococ> does that mean I have no sanity?
00:47:31 <zgrep> Oh, wait, I cut out too many words. Damn it.
00:48:21 <rdococ> ms/s/with x.*your///s/with x//
00:48:31 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Really? I usually either ignore the first regex I made, fix the resulting string as if the regexes were applied in a row, or I write a regex to fix the regex as a regular regex.
00:49:01 <rdococ> so Ψ = 0, no wait it's 1, 0, 1, 0 wait what is it
00:49:04 <zgrep> A regular regex expression! :P
00:49:05 <coppro> zgrep: new processors for an architecture may support additional features that their predecessors did not in a backwards-incompatible way, but when people make new architectures like ARM, they aren't backwards-compatile with other architectures
00:49:56 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: It doesn't end up calling our evil Microsoft overlords?
00:49:57 <boily> are there irregular expressions?
00:50:14 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Oh, okay. Good.
00:50:23 <hppavilion[1]> boily: alksfdjaoisdf matches "walrus", but not "oerjan"
00:50:39 <zgrep> It does match "oerjans", though.
00:51:19 <zgrep> Though alksfdjaoisde would match all of the above.
00:52:17 <fizzie> You can say "it's not rocket surgery" as an amusing combination of the two idioms, but saying "it's not brain science" works much less well.
00:52:40 <boily> @ask oerjan do you feel matched?
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00:54:43 <zgrep> fizzie: Between a rock and a pickle? :P
00:55:29 <zgrep> rdococ: Err... yes.
00:56:00 <rdococ> sure, all numbers satisfy that property, but
00:56:12 <rdococ> χ is algebra without algebra
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00:56:59 <rdococ> hppa: it is meant for substitution
00:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Is it a number that satisfies all properties the reals satisfy (and no others), but that isn't a real?
00:57:14 <zgrep> rdococ: You're trying to turn math into C macros? D:
00:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: There's a difference between weird numbers and weird function call syntax
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01:02:32 <rdococ> should I just google a random function, find a spot where the function doesn't havw a value, and make a spot there?
01:05:24 <zgrep> (although not completely, but almost)
01:05:51 <zgrep> I wonder if it's possible to somehow teach mathematica what @ is...
01:06:53 <zgrep> Expression cannot begin with "Abs[@]=-1". :P
01:07:16 <rdococ> try a different symbol like x
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01:08:08 <zgrep> I'm wondering, how would I begin to figure out what |@+k| would be...
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01:09:28 <rdococ> |@+k| = |@| + |k| = -@ + |k|
01:09:37 <zgrep> |a| + |b| ≠ |a + b|
01:10:23 <myname> why is |@| = -@, i thought it'd be -1
01:11:22 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n
01:11:46 <zgrep> `tomfoolery random number
01:11:55 <zgrep> `tomfoolery random
01:12:00 <rdococ> what is |-@|? is it |-1@| = 1?
01:12:03 <zgrep> Eh, I guess that's no longer there.
01:12:17 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
01:12:27 <zgrep> Oh, it worked, just slowly.
01:12:34 <zgrep> `tomfoolery random number
01:13:19 <rdococ> I would assume the k part gets absed
01:13:40 <rdococ> if I had my way, |-@| = -1
01:14:28 <rdococ> Ψ is far more interesting
01:14:37 <rdococ> `tomfoolery random number
01:15:09 <zgrep> `cat tmflry/random number
01:16:50 <myname> that would make @ pretty pointless
01:17:00 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Heheh.
01:17:14 <zgrep> Err... how did you mistype 42 as 19?
01:17:36 <zgrep> "The answer to life, the universe, and everything"? = 42 :P
01:18:43 <zgrep> (?) (+5) (-5) = 42?
01:18:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: When you said "Ψ is far more interesting", what does Ψ equal?
01:19:22 <rdococ> Ψ = a superposition of 0 and 1
01:19:37 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: A superposition? Are you sure it isn't just 0 or 1 at random?
01:19:47 <rdococ> okay it's 0 or 1 at random
01:20:00 <zgrep> |@|*|@| = 1... |@*@| = -@. <-- Why does this have to ruin everything. :(
01:20:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: math : Computer math :: Quantum math : Quantum computer math
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01:20:34 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: But it ruins ease of use. :P
01:20:43 <rdococ> zgrep: you made mathematica learn @?!!!
01:20:49 <myname> zgrep: because @ is atupid
01:20:55 <zgrep> I feel welcome here.
01:21:02 <zgrep> myname: It's not tupid? Okay.
01:21:40 <rdococ> hppa: it is xtupid for any x
01:22:57 <myname> the existence of @ would make 1 = -1
01:23:18 <zgrep> "hppa" makes me want to pronounce it "хпавилион". :P
01:23:24 <myname> which makes 2 equal to either 2, -2 or 0
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01:25:43 <myname> hppavilion[1]: but 1 = -1 is fine?
01:25:59 <zgrep> myname: I'm assuming that they consider |a|*|b| ≠ |a*b| to be fine.
01:26:44 <myname> zgrep: it will most likely brealk at |@+k| nontheless
01:26:47 <zgrep> Well, for all reals, |a|*|b| = |a*b|, I think.
01:26:59 <zgrep> myname: Well, if k = @, then |@+@| = -2 :P
01:27:11 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Probably something like that.
01:28:10 <myname> that depends on what norm you are using
01:28:11 <hppavilion[1]> Usually, |x| = ||x||, but not when dealing with sgeoids
01:28:21 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Wait, but why is |i| = 1?
01:29:01 <zgrep> @ introduces negative distances... does that simply mean going backwards in time? :P
01:29:05 <myname> because the dostance between i and 0 is i
01:29:29 <rdococ> what about a number j which relates to hyperbolic trig?
01:29:45 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that depends
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01:30:24 <myname> |a + bi| = |a| + |b| is as valid as |a + bi| = sqrt(a^2 + b^2)
01:30:34 <myname> both of them are well defined
01:31:35 <rdococ> no, the complex plane is like an x/y plane - the distance from i to 0 is 1
01:31:59 <rdococ> and from 1+i to 0 is sqrt(2)
01:32:36 <myname> as long as it follows some rules, anything is fine really
01:32:58 <rdococ> but those are the rules of the complex system
01:33:18 <myname> like, |x| = 0 => x = 0
01:34:18 <rdococ> but I have the idea of a hyperbolic complex plane where e^jx = sin(x) + icosh(x)
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01:41:14 <zgrep> |k@| ≠ |k||@|... argh! If only this weren't true, then things with @ would be much easier to think about.
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01:42:15 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: True...
01:42:17 <myname> that would break math for k = @
01:42:33 <zgrep> I don't see it breaking math for k = @...
01:42:42 <zgrep> Well, what I wrote, yes. Not what hppavilion[1] wrote.
01:43:44 <rdococ> omg that actually make sense
01:46:04 <zgrep> myname: Exactly. :/
01:47:56 <myname> asume k = @, that would make |@+k| = -2
01:48:20 <myname> k = -@ would make it 0
01:49:26 <myname> k = n@ -> |@+k| = -(n+1)
01:50:24 <myname> k = -n@ -> |@+k| = -n+1
01:51:50 <rdococ> k = n -> |@+k| = -1 - ((n/@)+1)...?
01:52:46 <rdococ> n = @ -> |@+n| = -1 - ((n/@)+1) -> -3...?
01:53:32 <rdococ> k = n@ -> |@+k| = -(n+1)
01:53:33 <myname> k = -(n+2)k -> |@+k| = -(n+2)+1 = -(n+1)
01:54:03 <myname> so |@ + k| = |@ - k + 2|
01:54:09 <rdococ> k = (1/@)@ -> |@+k| = -((1/@)+1)
01:57:22 <\oren\> The enigma machine had a keyboard that was qwertzuio asdfghjk pyxcvbnml
01:59:28 <myname> |x| = |-x| -> |k + @| = |k - 2 - @| -> @ = -2 - @ -> 2@ = -2 -> @ = -1
02:00:20 <myname> how should (a+b)/b = a?
02:00:32 <myname> that would make a + b = a * b
02:01:09 <zgrep> \oren\: Intriguing.
02:02:36 <myname> what are you trying to do
02:02:47 <zgrep> Oh, that's interesting.
02:03:13 <zgrep> |n@|=-n; n=(@+x)/@; |@+x| = -(@+x)/@... huh.
02:04:04 <myname> i don't quite get where these division rules came from
02:04:24 <zgrep> Are you saying I'm assuming @/@ = 1?
02:04:54 <myname> i don't get what made you assume n = (@+x)/@
02:05:51 <zgrep> Who cares, it works?
02:06:06 <zgrep> And it was rdococ that made me assume. :P
02:06:14 <zgrep> It figures out what |@+k| is.
02:06:29 <rdococ> So we want to know |@ + x|.
02:06:38 <rdococ> Let's divide both sides by @. |(1 + x/@)@|
02:06:45 <rdococ> Apply the rule. -(1 + x/@)
02:06:57 <rdococ> Simplify. -1 - x/@ Assuming my knowledge of parentheses are correct.
02:07:15 <zgrep> It works, of coures. :)
02:07:24 <zgrep> Or, wait... does it?
02:08:24 <myname> i am not sure if that somehow breaks my contradiction above
02:08:28 <rdococ> I've known that a + b = (1 + b/a)a for ages now.
02:08:30 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -(@+k)/@
02:09:07 <zgrep> myname: Hm, which contradiction?
02:09:11 <rdococ> a + b = (a/a + b/a)a = (1 + b/a)a
02:09:22 <rdococ> I dunno if it applies to @, but I don't see why otherwise.
02:09:43 <myname> |x| = |-x| -> |k + @| = |k - 2 - @| -> @ = -2 - @ -> 2@ = -2 -> @ = -1
02:09:54 <zgrep> Why does |k + @| = |k - 2 - @|?
02:09:59 <zgrep> Or are we assuming that?
02:10:32 <myname> because |k + @| = |-(k + 2) + @|
02:11:05 <rdococ> |5 + @| = |-7 + @|... nope, does not make sense, unless that's why it's contradictory
02:12:03 <rdococ> |5 + @| = -1 - 5/@, meanwhile |-7 + @| = -1 + 7/@. One's less than -1, and the other's more. That's assuming @ > 0.
02:12:10 <HackEgo> |n@| = -n; |@+k| = -(@+k)/@
02:12:12 <myname> because |k + @| = -(n + 1) for k = n@ and |-(k+2) + @| = -(k+2) + 1
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02:12:36 <zgrep> Err, no, I'm wrong, sorry.
02:13:11 <zgrep> So the assumption is that k = n@..., then |k + @| = |n@ + @| = |(n+1)@| = -n-1
02:13:50 <rdococ> so wait, |k + @| = -(k/@ + 1), right? that follows what I got, then |-(k+2)+@| = -(k+2) + 1...wait, what?
02:14:17 <zgrep> |5@ + @| ≠ |-7@ + @| because |a@| ≠ |a||@|
02:15:04 <myname> but |-n@ + @| = -n + 1
02:15:14 <rdococ> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@
02:15:29 <HackEgo> |n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@
02:15:35 <rdococ> I didn't get your version so I put my own
02:15:45 <zgrep> |-n@ + @| = |(1-n)@| = n-1
02:16:24 <zgrep> rdococ: Same thing. :P
02:16:54 <zgrep> (that's with regards to |@+k|)
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02:21:04 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: H444444444444444XXX11111N444444770000000000R
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02:25:09 <zgrep> I think it'd look nicer if rephrased: |@-k| = k/@ - 1 :P
02:25:15 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: not having guarantees for these things is sensible. thread-terminate! brings nothing but trouble...? or am i screwing something up. b.
02:27:13 <zgrep> So what'd |1/@| be...
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02:27:56 <myname> for that we have to know what |@^k| is
02:28:36 <myname> well, but we want it nontheless
02:28:43 <zgrep> Inverse isn't exactly the same thing as power, not completely/exactly. As far as I know.
02:29:12 <zgrep> Hm... |@| = -1, |@@| = -@, |@@@| = -@@, etc.
02:29:55 <zgrep> Please put some parens there. :P
02:32:58 <zgrep> Seems like that's it.
02:35:01 <HackEgo> |n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@
02:35:32 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1))
02:38:42 <myname> like, |x^@| could be x^@
02:39:17 <myname> i don't see how thatwould break anything since that exists für even exponents
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02:39:56 <myname> |@^@| also is a nice emoticon
02:41:35 <myname> |x@^y| = x|@^y| = -x@^(y-1)?
02:41:53 <zgrep> Do you mean x(@^y) or (x@)^y?
02:45:25 <zgrep> |((k^@)/@)@| = |k^@| = -((k^@)/@)
02:47:33 <myname> is there any way tp make it be 1?
02:48:27 <zgrep> |ab@| = a|b@|, right?
02:50:06 <zgrep> myname: I guess that |@^0| simply isn't 1...
02:51:05 <zgrep> myname: It works out: |@^1| = -(@^0), so @^0 = -|@^1| = -|@| = 1
02:51:33 <zgrep> |@^q| = -(@^(q-1)), q = 1
02:53:32 <myname> but i donjt like how |@^0| != |1|
02:53:42 <zgrep> Let's assume that it is...
02:53:43 <zgrep> But 1 = |1|... and -(@^(-1)) = |@^0|... so -1 = @^(-1)...
02:54:31 <zgrep> That doesn't work, does it?
02:55:22 <zgrep> Because @ ≠ -1, right...
02:55:36 <zgrep> Where did I mess u.
02:55:50 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
02:56:12 <zgrep> myname: No, @^0 seems to be 1... just |@^0| doesn't seem to be 1... :(
02:56:23 <zgrep> ...unless @^0 isn't 1, because @^1 ≠ 1...
02:56:37 <zgrep> How's that fine, though... |1| ≠ 1, then?
02:57:37 <myname> but that may imply @^1 is not @
02:57:42 <HackEgo> I have nothing to tell you.
02:57:42 <HackEgo> |n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1))
02:57:59 <zgrep> |@^1| = -(@^(-2))...
02:59:05 <myname> well, but as you said, |@^1| = -(@^0)
02:59:32 <myname> if @^1 were @, that would mean @^0 is 1
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03:00:22 <myname> so we either have to define |@^x| somehow else or we have to say that @^0 is not 1 and @^1 is not @
03:00:32 <myname> i don't like the second part, though
03:01:21 <myname> so the exponential rule is wrong
03:01:39 <zgrep> I mean, it works out that @^0 = 1 and @^1 = 1, they work together... but they end up giving @ a wrong value...
03:02:02 <myname> we may do something like ^(sqrt(x)) to work around these sneaky 0 and 1 edge cases
03:04:30 <zgrep> a^b = a*a*a... b times, right? That's the definition we're going with?
03:04:34 <zgrep> Or something else.
03:04:36 <myname> wait, how did your 1/@ worked above
03:05:18 <zgrep> I'm not sure what I did above... I've lost my train(s) of thought.
03:05:45 <zgrep> https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/f/8/7f80d3b6fbe1d4e35eca5022242872bf.png <-- that's the definition we're going with, right?
03:06:01 <myname> -1 = |@| = |@^1| = -(@^0)
03:07:26 <myname> i do think you made an error above but i am quite unsure
03:07:38 <zgrep> I probably made a few errors above.
03:07:42 <zgrep> |@^k| = @^(k-1) * |@|, right?
03:08:10 <zgrep> Simply because of the fact that |a@| = a|@|
03:08:34 <zgrep> So |@^k| = -(@^(k-1))
03:08:52 <zgrep> If @^0 = 1, then 1 = |@^0| = -(@^(-1))...
03:09:34 <rdococ> 1 = -(1/@)... that means 1/@ = -1...???
03:10:18 <rdococ> that's... weird - I heard you talking about it above but never stopped to read
03:10:50 <zgrep> If @^1 = @, then -1 = |@^1| = -(@^0), then 1 = @^0...
03:11:18 <rdococ> @^0 = 1, @^-1 = -1, and @^1 = @.
03:11:18 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
03:11:43 <rdococ> I guess 1/-1 has two solutions now
03:12:21 <zgrep> So how did I show that @ is a number...
03:12:35 <myname> but does this imply it for any division?
03:12:51 <myname> like, is 1/-2 equal to some @ thing?
03:13:19 <zgrep> |@^(-2)| = -(@^(-3))...
03:13:47 <zgrep> |@^-1| = |-1| = 1... so -(@^(-2)) = 1?
03:14:03 <myname> that would make -1 may or may not be @
03:15:24 <zgrep> If @^-2 = -1, then -1*(@^2) = 1, then @^2 = -1... D:
03:15:48 <rdococ> ...then that means sqrt(-1) = @ and @ = i...
03:16:23 <rdococ> indeed, bordering on ridiculous
03:16:31 <rdococ> but interesting enough to keep around
03:16:34 <zgrep> Something weird is going on here with powers... :(
03:17:07 <myname> but that would mean |i| = -1
03:17:27 <myname> rdococ: ot depends on how you calculate
03:17:58 <rdococ> if we assume that @^-1 = -1, then (@^-1)^-1 = -1 too, so @^-2 = -1...
03:18:05 -!- earendel has joined.
03:18:38 <zgrep> I'm going to take a break from @ for now.
03:19:24 <rdococ> I think the problem lies in the absolute value function of x@
03:19:25 <zgrep> What if we just say that |n@| = n|@| instead of -1...
03:19:37 <zgrep> Err, instead of -n.
03:19:49 <rdococ> since f(x) = |x@| doesn't swap slopes at the origin
03:20:18 <rdococ> I mean, |x@| = -x, but |x| = x if x >= 0, and -x otherwise
03:20:23 <rdococ> no such conditional in the @
03:20:24 <myname> rdococ: i don't get ypur (@^-1)^-1 = -1
03:20:33 <zgrep> Something makes me think this is simply a problem of choosing absolute value, something related to distances...
03:21:10 <rdococ> then we complicate things a lot
03:22:19 <myname> we may need to start from stratch
03:22:28 <rdococ> I'm going to make a small adjustment to @'s behaviour, and call the new one ©.
03:23:28 <rdococ> if we try © instead of @, do you think it will turn out with less contradictions?
03:23:30 <earendel> is @ something in particulatr already?
03:23:43 <HackEgo> |n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1))
03:23:47 <rdococ> © is different in that |-©| < 0
03:24:01 <pikhq> Every time I see @ I think ehird. Alas.
03:24:44 <rdococ> |©+k| = -1 - k/©, there's no change there, infact it works with any variable or constant
03:24:46 <myname> rdococ: which is also true for @
03:25:01 <rdococ> but |-©| = -1 where |-@| = 1
03:25:06 <zgrep> |n©| = -|n|... hm...
03:25:53 <rdococ> |©©| = -|©| = 1... interesting, difference already - it almost looks recursive
03:25:56 <myname> but i am way to lazy to type a copyright symbol
03:26:04 <zgrep> |n©| = -|n|, |((©+n)/©)©| = |©+n| = -|((©+n)/©)|
03:26:23 <zgrep> Different n's, sorry.
03:27:01 <myname> we might as well call it @ and remove out old draft
03:27:13 <rdococ> nah, incase © runs into problems too
03:27:20 <zgrep> -|((©+n)/©)| = -|1 + n/©|... I don't see how this is still the same as @?
03:28:07 <myname> not the same, but we basically made all the rules up from a wrong first definition
03:28:25 <myname> we might as well change that definition and start over still calling it @
03:29:07 <zgrep> I don't see how to unwrap it from the absolute value, though, which could be what makes it work, but still...
03:29:15 <zgrep> ...sort-of sad. :(
03:29:15 <rdococ> |© + k| = |(1 + k/©)/©|. Using the rule where |n©| = -|n|, we get -|1 + k/©|
03:29:21 <myname> or choose some symbol that's on an ordinary keyboard
03:30:39 <zgrep> myname: Use the all-mighty compose key! :P
03:30:51 <rdococ> |n©| = -|n|; |© + n| = -|1 + n/©|; |©^n|?
03:30:55 <myname> that's a pain in the ass on a software keyboard
03:31:16 <zgrep> myname: Oh... software keyboard? Those have © somewhere, but yeah, it's annoying to get to usually.
03:31:26 <zgrep> Try clicking and holding on 'c' or 'g'?
03:31:42 <zgrep> Or use c. Or `. Or any symbol, really. :P
03:31:47 <myname> i have it in a seperate menu on ,
03:32:19 <zgrep> |©^n| = -|©^(n-1)| I thknk.
03:32:41 <zgrep> But ∆ is taken for small changes.
03:32:47 <myname> and while we are at it, let's define the ― operation
03:33:13 <rdococ> |©^2| = -|©^1| = |©^0| = 1
03:33:56 <myname> works nice for multiplication
03:34:03 <zgrep> This is a nice symbol for a variable, right: ‰ ? :P
03:34:49 <zgrep> -5 = |5©|... hm...
03:35:11 <rdococ> |©^x| is -1 for an odd number but 1 for an even one... weird
03:35:18 <zgrep> Sort-of bland, though.
03:35:20 <rdococ> |©^0| = 1 works though
03:35:46 <earendel> what's a software keyboard? like onscreen interface?
03:36:04 <myname> pretty normal on smartphones
03:36:12 * zgrep takes a break from this to eat some cake
03:36:18 <zgrep> But |1| = 1, therefore ©© = 1
03:37:28 <rdococ> |©©| = 1, surprisingly
03:37:32 <zgrep> myname: Obviously -© = 1
03:37:46 <zgrep> If trying to find |@©| you get that. :P
03:37:57 <zgrep> But I think that's because we don't have a working @.
03:38:22 <zgrep> © = 1 or i... depending on the context? :P
03:38:42 * zgrep really goes away now
03:38:59 <zgrep> ...I cheated and reversed an absolute value... :P
03:39:05 <rdococ> then |©©| = 1...huh, it is
03:39:36 <zgrep> The only way to win is to cheat...
03:39:55 <rdococ> so you mean 1 = -1 now?
03:40:14 <rdococ> you can't reverse an absolute value, like you did anyway, whether © exists or not
03:42:42 <rdococ> we made a modified version of @ called ©, and |x©| = -|x|...hello?
04:00:01 <zgrep> @tell Sgeo__ @ seems to fail with regards to exponents... at least, it doesn't do too well...
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04:01:35 <Sgeo__> zgrep, what's going on?
04:03:02 <zgrep> Sgeo__: So exponents, as in |@^k|. If we assume that |n@| = -n, and n = (@^k)/@, then |@^k| = -(@^k)/@ = -(@^(k-1))
04:06:10 <zgrep> |@^1| = -(@^0); @^1 = @ (because of https://goo.gl/XMm8lT); So |@| = -1 = -(@^0); so @^0 = 1, so far so good...
04:07:31 <zgrep> |@^0| = |1| = 1 = -(@^(-1)); so (1/@) = -1. Therefore -@ = 1, and @ = -1... :/
04:08:02 <zgrep> Sgeo__: Which it isn't.
04:08:46 <zgrep> rdococ: Suggested |n©| = -|n|, which seems to do the trick.
04:08:59 <Sgeo__> Where does |n@| = -n come from? Was that my original definiton, or was it |n@| = -|n|? If i remember my most recent proposed definiton for |a+b@| properly, it would be the second, I think
04:09:57 <zgrep> Sgeo__: I don't know what your original definition was, but I know that I first heard of it as |@| = -1.
04:10:15 <zgrep> Sgeo__: What was your most recent definition?
04:11:13 <Sgeo__> |a+b@| = sqrt(a^2 - b^2) if a^2 - b^2 is positive, i*sqrt(a^2 - b^2) if a^2 - b^2 is negative. Or something like that
04:11:37 <zgrep> Eek. More if statements, atop the absolute value... :(
04:12:39 <zgrep> So theoretically I could have |3+4i+5@+6i@|? :D
04:12:53 <Sgeo__> Not sure if my definition extends to cover that
04:13:10 <zgrep> If a and b can be complex, then yes.
04:14:12 <zgrep> |a+b@| = |√(a²+b²)| ?
04:14:26 <zgrep> |a+b@| = √(|a²-b²|) ?
04:15:16 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|a+b@| = √(|a²-b²|)
04:15:33 <zgrep> HackEgo is slower than I last recall...
04:17:25 <zgrep> ...either that, or it's my connection.
04:17:42 <rdococ> So |0+1@| = sqrt(|0 - 1|) = 1???
04:18:40 <zgrep> Hm... or I'm wrong...
04:19:03 <zgrep> i*sqrt(a^2-b^2) = i*sqrt(-1) = i^2 = -1... :/
04:19:42 <zgrep> But i = sqrt(-1) so i*sqrt(a^2-b^2) = sqrt(b^2 - a^2), no?
04:22:06 <rdococ> so @ is a time dimension?
04:22:37 <zgrep> But... I*Sqrt[b] == Sqrt[-b] ???
04:22:54 <zgrep> Why isn't this working, then?
04:23:22 <zgrep> a = 0; b = 1; I*Sqrt[a^2 - b^2] => -1; Sqrt[b^2 - a^2] => 1; :(
04:23:38 <rdococ> but I love the idea of a complex hyperplane that takes place in 2 dimensions of space and 1 of time
04:24:17 <rdococ> Sgeo__: was that your intention? a time dimension?
04:24:45 <zgrep> Well, that's what a negative result from absolute value ends up being.
04:24:54 <zgrep> Though not exactly.
04:25:03 <Sgeo__> My recent definition of |a+b@| was inspired by the time dimension, which I believe could be described with a numvber # such that |#| = i
04:25:49 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|a+b@| = { √(a²-b²) if a²-b² ≥ 0 ; i√(a²-b²) if a²-b² < 0 }
04:26:31 <rdococ> |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²)
04:26:41 <rdococ> three dimensional tau space
04:26:47 <rdococ> tau representing time dimension
04:27:22 <rdococ> |τ| = sqrt(-1) = i, so it fits your definition too
04:27:42 <zgrep> a + bi + cj + dk <-- 3 dimensions + time?
04:28:30 <rdococ> the time dimension is negative
04:28:51 <rdococ> distance is a measure of how hard it is to get to somewhere, so more time allowed, the easier it is
04:29:47 <zgrep> Hm.... hmmmmm.... :D
04:29:57 <rdococ> |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²) if √(a² + b² - c²) >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
04:30:10 <zgrep> Wait... so if I have 4τ, then |4τ| = ???
04:30:44 <zgrep> Err. No. I can't think.
04:30:55 <zgrep> But... how is 4i easier than 3i?
04:31:12 <rdococ> i is basically the negatives
04:31:32 <rdococ> because square roots are like that
04:31:55 <rdococ> because x*x=-1 doesn't have any real solution
04:32:23 <rdococ> using my adjusted formula, |4t| = i*sqrt(-16) = 4ii = -4
04:32:29 <rdococ> which is easier than -3
04:32:43 <zgrep> But... why's it adjusted that way?
04:32:56 <zgrep> I guess you could say it just, err, is that way... but...
04:33:11 <zgrep> I didn't finish reading the line.
04:33:44 <rdococ> but mine is basically the same as Sgeo__'s @
04:34:05 <rdococ> except that I think tau would be a better symbol to fit it than @
04:34:17 <zgrep> Huh. Is this tau known by any other, more widely accepted names?
04:34:23 <zgrep> tau / @ / whatever.
04:34:53 <zgrep> I meant more as in, is there a wikipedia page with a snippet about it? Or any other links?
04:35:11 <rdococ> nah, idk if anyone thought of it yet
04:36:43 <zgrep> This is pretty neat.
04:37:22 <rdococ> well, I did have a similar idea
04:37:38 <rdococ> a number y where e^yx = sinh(x) + ycosh(x)
04:38:28 <rdococ> so I guess |@| = -1 after all, since it's time and all
04:39:57 <Sgeo__> I should read these logs at some point
04:40:13 <Sgeo__> I'm only half paying attention, and it involves stuff I'm involved with
04:40:31 <rdococ> we should popularise this @ or tau idea
04:41:03 <zgrep> Damn, autocorrect.
04:42:14 <Sgeo__> I'm confused by rdococ's definition... sqrt is always (normally) >= 0 unless comparison is undefined
04:42:37 <Sgeo__> Should it be read as just a^2 + b^2 - c^2 in the conditional?
04:42:41 <rdococ> |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
04:43:01 <rdococ> but it's basically the same as yours, with i added on top
04:43:27 <rdococ> I think this kind of stuff is used, just not in this format
04:43:54 <Sgeo__> Is there a way to get the result to be imaginary? Because afaict exactly that is used as the time dimension
04:43:56 <rdococ> also, since it's mostly position, not rotation, if we add a third dimension they don't have to be quarternions
04:44:13 <rdococ> then just remove the conditional
04:44:50 <Sgeo__> But then we exclude negatives
04:45:10 <Sgeo__> |a + bi + c@ + d#| = ?
04:45:10 <rdococ> what would it mean for the result to be imaginary?
04:45:47 <rdococ> what would # mean then?
04:46:22 <zgrep> Sgeo__: You mean this thing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion
04:46:36 <Sgeo__> hppavilion[1], there's an argument for why |n@| = -n is not a good idea
04:46:52 <Sgeo__> And that |n@| = -|n| makes more sense. Something to do with exponentiation
04:46:56 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: yeah, but if it's part of a system where everything else means something, then it's weird
04:47:05 <rdococ> I had the |n@| = -|n| idea
04:47:20 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/VqUBVapD/
04:47:21 <rdococ> before we realized it was about the time dimension
04:47:56 <Sgeo__> I'm still convinced that $ or # is time and @ or tau is something else
04:48:41 <rdococ> distance is a measure of how easy it is to get to somewhere
04:49:03 <rdococ> if you need to be there in a larger time, then it's easier because you have more time to spare
04:49:12 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Also, we need to standardize terms instead of saying "x or y"
04:49:13 <Sgeo__> hppavilion[1], you just tried to define $ which I tended to call #
04:49:20 <rdococ> so that's why tau makes distances lower - getting over there in a day is easier than a minute
04:49:45 <rdococ> it's used in other areas
04:49:54 <rdococ> time as a negative dimension isn't a new idea
04:49:59 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: How about we give all the esonums Georgian names?
04:50:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/georgian.html
04:50:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Greek letters are waaaaaaay overused, and Hebrew is reserved for cardinality
04:51:02 <rdococ> I have an even better idea
04:51:09 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
04:51:55 <hppavilion[1]> But... neoletters doesn't render Goergian. Of course.
04:52:13 <rdococ> but I'm sticking with t
04:52:18 <Sgeo__> What's wrong with @ similar to ai for something similar to i except with absolute
04:52:26 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: you should update your neoletters
04:52:45 <\oren\> it's supported Georgian for a while
04:53:10 <rdococ> does this chat even support emojis?
04:53:16 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
04:53:53 <Sgeo__> Some clients might not display it nicely
04:54:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:54:57 <zgrep> rdococAbs[a_, b_, c_] := Module[{s}, s = a^2 + b^2 - c^2; If[s < 0, I*Sqrt[s], Sqrt[s]]]
04:55:13 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
04:55:28 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:56:09 <hppavilion[1]> Open the "THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG" window that Windows gives me (sorry)
04:56:28 <rdococ> Sgeo__: if $ was time, then what's # or t?
04:56:37 <\oren\> try restarting your caht app
04:57:03 <Sgeo__> rdococ, not really sure. A time dimension that doesn't get weird past the speed of light?
04:57:14 <Sgeo__> Or it gets weird in a different way from reality
04:58:08 <rdococ> |$| = i, but |t| = -1... what is imaginary distance anyway
04:58:58 <\oren\> try setting your font to another one and back to neoletters?
04:59:14 <\oren\> I do that in my terminal each time I update it
05:00:03 -!- variable has joined.
05:00:57 <\oren\> IRC is a very simple protocol, easy to implement
05:01:15 <myname> i'd use ii as a foundation
05:02:14 <\oren\> there are well-known libraries in Perl and Python for IRC
05:02:52 <variable> hppavilion[1]: yeah, IRC is fairly easy to write a client for
05:02:56 <variable> look at the sheer number of bots
05:03:04 <myname> http://tools.suckless.org/ii/
05:05:39 <zgrep> \oren\, can you guess which is the number 3 and which is the russian letter 'eh'? https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/YIDcIFry/3eh.png
05:05:52 <zgrep> Without trying it yourself, that is. :P
05:06:49 <myname> i'd say the left one is a 3
05:07:58 <\oren\> myname: you are correct
05:11:46 <\oren\> neoletters also has ↋ƐɛɜɝꜾꜿεЄԐԑЗз
05:11:50 <rdococ> should I implement t into Squeak?
05:13:52 <rdococ> |a + bi + cj + ... + zt| = √(a² + b² + c² + ... - z²) if a² + b² + c² + ... - z² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² + c² + ... - z²)
05:14:02 <rdococ> generalized to n dimensions
05:14:37 <rdococ> but help me discover t*t
05:15:56 -!- Lilly_Goodman has joined.
05:16:48 <rdococ> |1 + 1i + 2t| = isqrt(1 + 1 - 4) = -2
05:17:51 -!- Lyka has joined.
05:18:16 <Lyka> update on hexadec: made a "reduced" form
05:18:16 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: make sure in the font menu you select neoletters Regular?
05:18:31 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/49wLRcB3
05:19:52 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: well that's a prblem. it should be "Regular" nd not "Normal"
05:20:27 <\oren\> the earlier versions had "Normal" the newer ones have "Regular"
05:21:33 <\oren\> hmm maybe go to the controlpanel->fonts and find neoletters and delete it?
05:24:48 <Lyka> so, um, does the language make any sense now?
05:25:01 <\oren\> hmm I wonder why installing the new version over the old doesn't work when the naming of the subfonts changed?
05:29:23 <Lyka> is this a bad time to ask about a language i made?
05:29:39 <rdococ> can you help me determine what t*t is?
05:29:40 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
05:30:12 <zgrep> Dang. Perl6 has a bunch of neat things it can do... http://tpm2016.zoffix.com/
05:30:20 <rdococ> I can't seem to figure it out
05:31:27 <rdococ> also, how is getting to (5, 5) in 6 seconds as easy as getting to 50, 50 in 51 seconds?
05:31:45 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² / c²) if a² + b² / c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² / c²)
05:32:00 <zgrep> rdococ: Well, what's t?
05:32:19 <rdococ> |5, 5i, 6t| = sqrt(25 + 25 / 36) = sqrt(50 / 36)
05:33:03 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
05:33:07 <Lyka> (5*sqrt(2)) / (50*sqrt(2)) == 1/10
05:33:22 <zgrep> rdococAbs[5, 5, 6] = Sqrt[14]
05:33:45 <Lyka> i'm not good at math
05:34:20 <Lyka> passed calc 1 by sucking up during the last 5 weeks
05:34:41 <Lyka> passed calc 2 by dropping out of college
05:34:47 <rdococ> then |1 + 1i + 2t| = sqrt(1 + 1 - 4) = sqrt(-2) but |2 + 2i + 4t| = sqrt(4 + 4 - 16) = sqrt(...oh
05:35:06 <zgrep> rdococAbs[1, 1, 2] = -Sqrt[2]
05:35:40 <rdococ> should it be - c^2 or / c^2?
05:35:57 <zgrep> rdococAbs is written with - c^2... division?
05:36:09 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² / c²)
05:36:24 <rdococ> getting there in 5 seconds is twice as hard as 10 seconds, same as if you double the distance
05:36:34 <zgrep> Or (a^2+b^2)/(c^2)
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05:37:03 <rdococ> I think that will work better
05:37:14 <zgrep> rdococAbs2[1, 2, I] = -Sqrt[5] :P
05:37:43 <rdococ> well, Abs2[1, 1, 2] should be 1 + 1 / 4, or 1/2
05:38:12 <rdococ> |1 + 1i + 2t| = sqrt(1 + 1 / 4) = sqrt(1/2)
05:38:36 <rdococ> |2 + 2i + 4t| = sqrt(4 + 4 / 16) = sqrt(1/2)
05:40:20 <rdococ> what software are you using? Mathematica?
05:40:30 <zgrep> Unfortunately, no.
05:40:35 <rdococ> how much does it cost?
05:40:55 <zgrep> I get it free, courtesy of school.
05:41:06 <rdococ> I ask how much money something will cost and you give me the vaguest answer.
05:41:28 <zgrep> http://www.wolfram.com/mathematica/pricing/
05:42:18 <zgrep> Though technically, your function is easily written in K...
05:42:43 <rdococ> or any other language really
05:42:58 <rdococ> just need to figure out t*t
05:43:34 <rdococ> well, multiplying by a unit like 1, i or t should keep the magnitude the same
05:45:43 <Lyka> great.... |x|-rated conversation
05:46:53 <rdococ> a space angle is rotation
05:46:58 <rdococ> a space time angle is velocity
05:46:58 <zgrep> rdococ: Mathematica can *sometimes* be fed into Mathics, and perhaps even into WolframAlpha sometimes.
05:48:01 <zgrep> Mathics is this thing: https://mathics.angusgriffith.com/
05:49:08 <zgrep> Lyka: kparc.com/k.txt
05:49:26 <zgrep> Though I don't know if it'd work with imaginary numbers. It wasn't exactly designed for those, I don't think.
05:49:33 <zgrep> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_%28programming_language%29
05:54:55 <Lyka> solve for x where x^0 != 1
05:59:24 * Lyka imagines sheep with numbers on them
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06:16:42 <b_jonas> Internet is full of April's fools jokes now. http://www.questionablecontent.net/ has one.
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06:50:07 <b_jonas> In underload, is it possible to store data in the source code at four bits per source code character density such that the program can decode it unambiguously?
07:08:05 <b_jonas> I think it's possible. I'll have to try to make a proof.
07:09:14 <dos> Someone should write a Hello, World with 1000000% cruft, MVC, etc.
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07:10:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46711&oldid=46710 * Kc kennylau * (+47) /* 0 to 255 using only a, e, u, z (To be completed) */
07:11:49 <Taneb> Today's GG is probably very good for certain shippers
07:13:44 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: I'm absolutely certain that's been done... http://www.ariel.com.au/jokes/The_Evolution_of_a_Programmer.html
07:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Perhaps we should make the world's most absurdly bloated Beginning Projects Repo
07:16:26 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: https://github.com/fwilson42/SimpleJavaEasyNumber
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08:07:09 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/snoopavision?v=MU39xSNukfg
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09:31:55 <lambdabot> boily asked 8h 39m 14s ago: do you feel matched?
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09:37:16 * oerjan realizes he just did something he's been annoyed at others doing.
09:37:27 <oerjan> @tell boily RE: matching.
09:40:03 <zgrep> oerjan: You're unmatched?
09:43:57 <zgrep> That's both happy and sad. :|
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10:19:56 <FireFly> I guess unmatched is better than mismatched (maybe(
10:20:07 <FireFly> Hm, that should probably have been (maybe]
10:31:01 <b_jonas> Are there any vim users here? Vim has a jump list where it tracks big moves, but that's not really what I need. Is there an edit location list where I can find the places I've edited in the file previously?
10:31:26 <zgrep> FireFly: Agh! [)))
10:32:22 <FireFly> b_jonas: well, it has an undo tree that you can query for some info, maybe it includes position
10:32:28 <FireFly> I wouldn't know how to use it though
10:33:14 <FireFly> There's a plugin called gundo that visualizes the undo tree and allows you to jump around in it
10:34:09 <b_jonas> I'd like commands like prevpos and nextpos in joe-editor, which let me quickly jump to places of previous edits. It's very convenient but few editors seem to have it.
10:34:26 <b_jonas> Lets you avoid setting bookmarks a lot.
10:35:37 <FireFly> http://stackoverflow.com/a/2131407/1267058 oh.
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10:37:15 <b_jonas> FireFly: ah, that says g, might do that
10:37:49 <FireFly> It seems to work, toyed around with it a bit
10:37:50 <b_jonas> g ; for previous and g , for next. strange assignments
10:38:25 <FireFly> Probably related to the ; , commands that repeat f/F/t/T forwward/backward
10:38:44 <FireFly> But vim's assignments can be pretty weird and arbitrary sometimes
10:39:04 <FireFly> You could always remap them to something else prefixed by <Leader> if you prefer
10:51:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 14m 27s ago: RE: matching.
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15:33:35 <rdococ> |1 + tt| = sqrt(1 / t^2)
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15:45:37 <rdococ> sgeo told us that @ was inspired by time dimension and so we come up with |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b| --- the last part was someone else's idea from another channel
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16:32:40 <izabera> http://senseis.xmp.net/?TerritoryScoringOnGoServersConsideredHarmful oh em gee
16:32:47 <izabera> considered harmful essays everywhere
16:36:36 <rdococ> |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b|
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16:38:50 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: help me with this- |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b|
16:38:56 <rdococ> I want to find out t^2
16:39:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Try defining a and b to appropriate numbers and working from there
16:39:50 <rdococ> no, t is like i but different
16:40:24 <rdococ> |t| = sqrt(0 / 1) = |0|/|1| = 0 now
16:40:44 <rdococ> and |a + 0t| = sqrt(a^2 / 0) = sqrt(infinity)
16:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: If |t|=0, then doesn't that just make t=0?
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16:42:19 <hppavilion[1]> "And now there is non-binary sex. I guess that would be "analog sex"..."
16:42:25 <rdococ> in my system |0| =/= 0
16:42:56 <myname> so... |2t| = 0, but |t + t| = -1
16:43:01 <hppavilion[1]> (sex is gender in this case, not the act between bored teenagers)
16:43:15 <rdococ> |t + t| = sqrt(0 / 2^2) = 0
16:43:31 <rdococ> |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b|
16:43:56 <myname> in t+t, a is t and b is 1, in 2t, a is 0 and b is 2
16:44:41 <rdococ> |t + t| = sqrt(t^2 / 1) = t...
16:45:03 <rdococ> |2t| = sqrt(0 / 4) = |t + t| = sqrt(t^2 / 1)
16:45:31 <rdococ> sqrt(0 / 4) = sqrt(t^2) = t...??????? what
16:46:07 <rdococ> my original definition was |a + bt| = √(a² - b²)
16:47:24 <rdococ> but that would make it as easy to go 10000 miles in 10001 seconds than to go 1 miles in 2 seconds, whereas the second one is much harder
16:47:33 <rdococ> so I changed it to |a + bt| = √(a² / b²)
16:48:34 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: One of the benefits of @ that t seems to lack is that @ is logical and straightforward; it just has one little gotcha that makes it different, but that can be explained in a single equation with exactly 1 operation (assuming -1 is syntactically a number, not "apply negation to 1")
16:49:13 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: And you have to establish all these other rules in the process
16:49:30 <rdococ> we recently found out that sgeo's latest definition for @ is |a + b@| = √(a² - b²)
16:49:44 <hppavilion[1]> There are other subtleties, but the straightforward part of i is just i=sqrt(-1)
16:50:41 <rdococ> but it's not exactly the same as t
16:51:07 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: it should be equal difficulty to go 100 miles in 200 seconds as it is to go 10 miles in 20 seconds, t does this but @ doesn't
16:51:26 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Beautiful esonums can be explained as a single operation on them equaling a number that operation usually cannot produce
16:51:42 <rdococ> |10 + 20t| = |100 + 200t| but |10 + 20@| =/= |100 + 200@|
16:52:13 <rdococ> that's why I changed it to /
16:53:02 <rdococ> another idea I had was e^fx = sinh(x) + rcosh(x) where the esonum is f
16:53:21 <rdococ> hyperbolic sine and cosine
16:53:32 <rdococ> so it's a hyperbolic i
16:53:38 <rdococ> should I change the definition to that?
16:54:11 <\oren\> we REALLY need to make templates compile faster
16:55:19 <\oren\> @1337 i am a leet haxor
16:56:32 <rdococ> e ͭ ͯ = sinh(x) + tcosh(x)
17:00:29 <rdococ> what about this instead - e ͭ ͯ = sinh(x) + tcosh(x)
17:00:45 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The two characters after e aren't rendering
17:01:21 <rdococ> how'd you figure it out?
17:01:38 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: My browser still renders them, and I have the godlike powers of COPY AND PASTE
17:02:03 <rdococ> e^tx = sinh(x) + tcosh(x)
17:02:19 <rdococ> do you think the idea is better than my other one?
17:02:51 <oerjan> i'm not sure there isn't already a t which matches there
17:03:09 <rdococ> but the t is an esonum
17:03:12 <\oren\> hppavilion ypu really neeed an update
17:03:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: what's j
17:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I was typing it, but people kept talking :P
17:04:06 <\oren\> try deleting the font in the vontrl$panel and reintaling it
17:04:31 <\oren\> sorry fpr bad spelibg[im on my phone
17:04:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: try plugging it into the series for e^x, that's my goto-definition for whether that makes sense.
17:05:05 <oerjan> (of course then you have to define the limits too)
17:05:19 -!- vanila has joined.
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17:05:43 <oerjan> > [(exp x, sinh x + cosh x) | x <- [0, 0.1 ..]]
17:05:44 <lambdabot> [(1.0,1.0),(1.1051709180756477,1.1051709180756475),(1.2214027581601699,1.221...
17:06:37 <rdococ> e^1x = sinh(x) + cosh(x)?
17:06:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
17:06:44 <\oren\> the build failed again
17:08:12 <rdococ> e^tx = sinh(x) + tcosh(x), t =/= 1
17:08:28 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Also, the name changed from "normal" to "medium"
17:09:05 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: good it shoukd at least work with georgian noe
17:09:13 <oerjan> rdococ: the hyperbolic functions are pretty much what you get when you take the expressions for the trigonometric ones in terms of exp and remove i's everywhere
17:09:32 <\oren\> ill add those superscripts[when i get home ftom work
17:09:37 <oerjan> > [(exp (-x), sinh x - cosh x) | x <- [0, 0.1 ..]] -- testing another
17:09:38 <lambdabot> [(1.0,-1.0),(0.9048374180359595,-0.9048374180359595),(0.8187307530779818,-0....
17:09:54 <rdococ> how does time rotation work
17:09:59 <oerjan> hm needs switching order, i think
17:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> (In retrospect, the reason it wouldn't update the font was probably because I had applications with it open
17:12:38 <oerjan> @check \x -> exp x == sinh x + cosh (x :: Double) -- wondering if ghc uses this exactly
17:12:39 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
17:12:55 <\oren\> nah i did a tesy it is a bug in windows where it won't ovrwrite a otf with a ttf
17:13:28 <oerjan> @check \x -> exp x == sinh x + cosh (x :: Double)
17:13:30 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 3 tests and 4 shrinks):
17:13:37 <\oren\> for some goddamn reason
17:13:52 <rdococ> what about this instead? t = i^2, t =/= -1
17:15:11 <oerjan> rdococ: that violates basic equality laws, which are logic not arithmetic.
17:15:35 <rdococ> I don't see that stopping any other people from doing stuff like it
17:15:45 <oerjan> thataway lies NaN and other madness.
17:15:52 <rdococ> like I saw an esonum where q^2 = 1 but q =/= 1
17:16:25 <oerjan> rdococ: that doesn't violate equality. you can have as many solutions to q^2 = 1 as you want in a general algebra.
17:16:39 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's one of the three 2d real algebras (or something)
17:16:45 <oerjan> of course it won't be a field if there's more than two.
17:16:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The other two are the complexes and k, which is like j but for 0
17:17:22 <rdococ> oerjan: so why can't I do sqrt(t) = i then and t =/= -1?
17:17:27 <oerjan> rdococ: but t = i^2 and i^2 = -1 imply t = -1 from pure logic.
17:17:54 <rdococ> q^2 = 1 and sqrt(1) = q
17:18:09 <rdococ> mine isn't any different
17:18:15 <vanila> ??????????????????????????????????
17:18:50 <rdococ> or ti = -i, but t =/= -1
17:19:28 <oerjan> rdococ: because sqrt a = x, is not the unique solution to x^2 = a, but if you don't have (sqrt a)^2 = a then it's not a square root.
17:20:07 <vanila> then take the 'algebraic esoclosure'
17:20:13 <rdococ> okay, I'm using the ti = -i definition along with t =/= -1
17:20:20 <vanila> which is where you add infinityl many distinct solutions to every algebraic equation
17:20:26 <oerjan> rdococ: the point is, to get i^2 to be t you have to redefine i^2 which already exists.
17:21:11 <rdococ> but there's nothing stopping me from breaking that rule and giving it two solutions
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17:21:45 <rdococ> ti = -i but t =/= -1...
17:22:50 <oerjan> rdococ: ok, just define 2+2 = t while you're at it.
17:24:07 <oerjan> vanila: way ahead of you, it seems.
17:24:20 <oerjan> or perhaps crashing high speed into the same point.
17:25:07 <oerjan> (as usual, the real challenge is to end up with anything actually interesting.)
17:25:40 <oerjan> rather than a chaotic mess where everything is equally true.
17:27:12 <oerjan> make it 1=2 and we can summon pope russell
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17:29:21 <rdococ> here it says that in the Minkowski metric, time is imaginary
17:30:16 <rdococ> |x + (y + ti)i| = |x + yi - t|...
17:33:47 * oerjan summons john cleese to teach quintopia
17:34:21 <oerjan> WITHOUT WHICH THEY ALL IT IS?
17:34:55 <oerjan> actually the IT is redundant
17:37:20 <HackEgo> 1274) <coca-cola> bite the wax tadpole
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17:57:08 <quintopia> i probably meant sine qua omnia est
17:57:28 <oerjan> quintopia: still using a singular verb, there
17:57:57 <oerjan> you just changed the gender of omnia
17:57:57 <b_jonas> no, it's fastened with a staple
17:58:27 <oerjan> quintopia: no, it is neuter plural nominative
17:58:37 <prooftechnique> omnia is plural in nominative, accusative, and vocative
17:59:05 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/omnis#Declension
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17:59:37 <quintopia> i want the equivalent of english "everything"
17:59:52 <oerjan> quintopia: omne, then.
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18:04:12 <prooftechnique> Oh, duh. There are like 3 quis in Latin, and I mixed them up
18:04:55 <oerjan> `le/rn LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI
18:05:04 <oerjan> `learn LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI
18:05:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'latina': LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI
18:05:10 <shachaf> le/rn: print better output twh
18:05:24 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/latin{a,}
18:06:46 <shachaf> even your beloved learn is not immune
18:10:03 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
18:10:23 <shachaf> That wisdom entry is outdated now.
18:10:24 <oerjan> <b_jonas> In underload, is it possible to store data in the source code at four bits per source code character density such that the program can decode it unambiguously? <-- of course not, there are only 9 command characters and no way to decode non-command ones. also some combinations are nops or infinite loops so you have to avoid them.
18:10:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: disce: not found
18:10:59 <oerjan> you can store 1 bit per character, though, as i did in the rule 110 program.
18:11:50 <Caesura> Daoyu commands fill the 4-bit space
18:12:07 <oerjan> maybe you can find a code that gives 2, i'd be surprised if 3 were possible (you'd need to be able to lose only one character possibility on average)
18:12:37 <Caesura> If the specification is unclear, please tell me so I can improve it
18:12:58 <Caesura> Ah, I'll fix that right now
18:13:05 <Caesura> They were a bit of a rush job
18:14:36 <oerjan> prooftechnique: ooh you meant that disco literally
18:14:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: Aut disce aut discede | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Budapest.
18:15:07 <prooftechnique> I guess really the gerund is discere, but whatever hth
18:17:31 <Caesura> disco, discere, dedici, no PPP
18:17:52 <quintopia> prooftechnique except the new ones
18:18:34 <Caesura> Doceo, docere, docui, doctus
18:19:03 <Caesura> 3rd person plural indicative active present
18:19:12 <oerjan> prooftechnique: i think "discere" is the infinitive, but wiktionary's table lists it as nominative gerund which it sort of logically is
18:19:13 <Caesura> Hence doctor, one who teaches
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18:19:41 <Caesura> Infinitives as gerunds can be done... but there isn't anything like "discendus"
18:20:11 <oerjan> Caesura: because the real gerund is not used in the nominative...
18:20:32 <Caesura> This is where I realize that I have spent the last two years unlearning the latin from the three years prior
18:20:44 <prooftechnique> I think they call it a degenerate form or something? My Latin grammar is a little hazy
18:21:59 <prooftechnique> I wish I knew more Ancient Greek, but I don't think any time I spent learning Latin was wasted
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18:22:43 <Caesura> I learned a bit of Attic Greek under the notion that it would be easier
18:22:49 <Caesura> It is not. It is not easier than Latin.
18:22:59 <oerjan> Caesura: funny, virtually all my latin grammar i learned ~ 30 years ago from a grammar i found in the town library. and i still remember much of it.
18:23:34 <Caesura> Aeorist prefixing was such a pain with greek
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18:23:48 <Caesura> I won awards in state and national competitions on Latin
18:24:10 <prooftechnique> I would really like to know what it is in the human brain that seems to lead to the mutation of "to be" and "to go" in so many languages.
18:24:11 <quintopia> wow i wouldnt have guessed you were as old as that implies.
18:24:34 <Caesura> I should try and keep Latin fresh in my memory with a bit more effort, hm
18:25:03 <quintopia> i learned it in two year-long classes 15 years ago and remember little besides vocabulary and 1st and 2nd declension suffices
18:25:40 <Caesura> I think I spent my fifth year of latin unlearning it, the more I think about that
18:25:59 <Caesura> The gerundive / gerund distinction never really sunk into my memory, I think :x
18:26:14 <Caesura> Gerundive is the non-nominative, the noun of "to verb," right
18:28:04 <oerjan> <Caesura> disco, discere, dedici, no PPP <-- hm are you saying wiktionary's table is erroneous, then
18:28:20 <prooftechnique> Though Romans were goofs and sometimes used the gerundive in place of the gerund for euphony
18:28:27 <ais523> any april 1 stuff worth checking out this year?
18:29:19 <prooftechnique> Personally, I can't wait to see what my talky box from Amazon has cooked up while I've been at work. It has the power to call my phone, so I expect prank calls.
18:30:31 <prooftechnique> oerjan: PPP is the past participle, which disco does not have.
18:30:47 <vanila> ais523, you can telnet read wikipedia
18:31:04 <vanila> and this https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7511
18:31:26 <fungot> prooftechnique: i have a drug overdose? wah, that spoils it even more simply in our new language
18:31:37 <ais523> vanila: telnet wikipedia actually seems potentially useful
18:31:41 <ais523> I hope they keep it around
18:31:48 <vanila> ais523, there is already a gopher wikipedia
18:31:50 <ais523> I mean, you could telnet to port 80 but it's annoying
18:32:48 <ais523> huh, RFC MMI syntax has a MIGHT?
18:32:54 <ais523> Agora uses MAY for that
18:34:15 <ais523> someone posted a patch for a leftpad(2) syscall to the Linux kernel
18:34:25 <ais523> that was at least mildly amusing
18:34:25 <Caesura> The wikipedia table lists the supine... hmmm
18:34:34 <ais523> the kernel devs are pretending to take it seriously
18:35:09 <Caesura> We were taught with the fourth principal part as the PPP
18:36:21 <b_jonas> did they also post a libc wrapper with userspace emulation as fallback to the gnu libc mailing lists?
18:36:32 <ais523> come to think of it they shuld probably implement it in the vDSO
18:36:36 <ais523> b_jonas: not that I saw
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18:50:23 <rdococ> what about an esoteric programming language that's turing complete because of its esonums
18:51:09 <rdococ> a number defined to behave like a number, but slightly different
18:51:22 <APic> Marvin Minsky ♥
18:51:28 <vanila> rdococ, that's a really cool idea i like it
18:51:33 <rdococ> e.g. an esonum called @ could do this - |@| = -1
18:51:47 <vanila> rdococ, did you hear my idea about alg. esoclosure
18:51:53 <rdococ> don't think it was my idea
18:52:44 <rdococ> an esolang with addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponentiation and i
18:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> p sure you can have a TC esolang just with reals and equality...
18:53:26 <vanila> what about a programing lanugage based on counter examples to tarskis high school algebra problem?
18:53:52 <vanila> those are surely esonumbers
18:54:04 <rdococ> a programming language that doesn't need to evaluate things to manipulate them
18:54:27 <rdococ> it would be able to detect that 3+2 = 4+1 without evaluating either for example
18:54:55 <rdococ> a better example is 3+2+x = 5+x
18:55:12 <rdococ> it would be able to do that without evaluating x
18:56:40 <rdococ> super lazy evaluation - if there's any way round evaluating something, do that way
18:57:00 <rdococ> 3+2+x = 5+x for example - you might need to evaluate 3+2, but not x
18:57:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daoyu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46712&oldid=46696 * Kaynato * (+1059) Clarifications (replaced diagrams)
18:57:53 <rdococ> e^sqrt(-1)x would equal sin(x) + sqrt(-1)cos(x) without evaluating sqrt(-1)
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18:58:06 <rdococ> say |@| = -1, no error there either
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18:59:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Kaynato * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Daoyu Symbol Table.png]]": Irrelevant information removed
18:59:39 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: we were just discussing super lazy evaluation - an idea where a programming language would try its absolute hardest not to evaluate something, it's almost not lazy
19:00:08 <vanila> how would it know what not to evaluate?
19:00:11 <rdococ> e.g. in such a language, a computer would detect that e^sqrt(-1)x = sin(x) + sqrt(-1)cos(x) without ever knowing that sqrt(-1) = i
19:00:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Ultimate Lazy Evaluation just prints out the program and tells you to "do it your fucking self"
19:00:22 <Caesura> quintopia: Is this better?
19:00:35 <rdococ> vanila: it wouldn't evaluate anything, just manipulate, simplify and stuff
19:01:21 <rdococ> (1/0)/0 = 1, and it wouldn't even know that 1/0 evaluates to an error
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19:01:38 <Caesura> You're talking about symbolic computation?
19:01:49 <Caesura> Pretty sure you can set that up with Wolfram
19:02:07 <rdococ> yes but it detects stuff like 1/0
19:02:19 <rdococ> mine would be too lazy to realize that 1/0 evaluates to an error
19:02:25 <\oren\> huh theres a vuln in emacs this time?
19:02:27 <Caesura> With some redefinitions you coul do that also
19:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, so i guess you just try every evaluation order possible until you get a normalised expression?
19:03:36 <rdococ> maybe it could use substitution
19:04:01 <Caesura> Wolfram evaluates 1/(1/0) to be 0, it seems
19:04:24 <Caesura> Although it also WARNS you that 1/0 is encountered, it doesn't break the entire thing
19:05:12 <Caesura> It is very powerful for symbolic computation
19:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, well i mean at this stage it's not actually true
19:05:13 <rdococ> but it's eager enough to warn you
19:06:37 <rdococ> you need to add them, right?
19:06:55 <Caesura> No, that's for multiplying exponents of equal bases
19:07:15 <Phantom_Hoover> the issue with doing e.g. the 1/0 trick you mentioned is that if you specify all these substitution rules you can evaluate 1/0 to get contradictory values
19:07:29 <Caesura> @PH Yes, thus indeterminate forms
19:07:29 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
19:08:49 <rdococ> infact, why not make the numbers mathematical symbols?
19:08:59 <\oren\> prooftechnique: i just got a work email saying dont use emacs
19:11:14 <rdococ> who knew sqrt(-1) could be so useful
19:12:10 <Caesura> You have heard of Cayley-Dickson construction?
19:12:19 <Caesura> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%E2%80%93Dickson_construction
19:12:46 <vanila> would you recommend it?
19:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but after a certai point the results of that can't be called 'numbers'
19:13:04 <vanila> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski%27s_high_school_algebra_problem
19:13:13 <Caesura> Yes, true, but the first few steps provide useful constructs
19:13:31 <Caesura> The Geometric Algebra is much more powerful, however, in my own personal opinion
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19:17:29 <Caesura> Anyway, if I could ask for feedback
19:17:43 <Caesura> Is the current specification of Daoyu understandable and clear
19:17:46 <\oren\> that list of axioms is bullshit. i was taught plenty about subtraction and negative numbrts in high school
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19:18:15 <rdococ> isn't subtraction just adding negative numbers?
19:19:14 <\oren\> right. but that list is missing --x = x for example
19:26:29 <\oren\> it shoukd be called tarskis alternate universe high school problem, where subtraction is a university discipline
19:29:25 <\oren\> ofc one day we might consider complex numbers to be a high school subject
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19:38:31 <hppavilion[1]> (y/// is less well-known, and m// is not used at all)
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20:03:44 <rdococ> what about a language where there are no conditionals and you have to execute arbritary code stored in lookup tables
20:06:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:09:32 <b_jonas> ais523: have anyone examined how densely you can embed information in underload source code such that the underload program can decode it?
20:09:52 <ais523> b_jonas: it's possible to manage at least one bit per character
20:10:07 <b_jonas> ais523: I think you can manage two bits per char at least, but I haven't made a proof
20:10:08 <ais523> IIRC somewhere oerjan made a parser for strings of : and ^
20:10:28 <ais523> going higher there isn't an obvious method, but that doesn't mean there isn't a non-obvious one
20:10:29 <b_jonas> I should examine it, I don't understand underload enough and this seems like a thing that lets me explore it
20:11:14 <ais523> well reaching three bits per character is obviously impossible
20:11:20 <b_jonas> ais523: I think I'll try to decode strings made of ~ ! : *
20:11:24 <ais523> so the true value is ≥ 1 and < 3
20:11:32 <b_jonas> ais523: you could receive fractional bits
20:11:40 <ais523> b_jonas: !~~ and ~~! are eqivalent
20:11:45 <b_jonas> and it doesn't have to be stateless, if parenthesis are involved
20:11:46 <ais523> b_jonas: sure, I expect the number of bits to be fractional
20:11:59 <ais523> also ~~ and :! are equivalent
20:12:12 <ais523> and :*:* is equivalent to :::***
20:12:17 <b_jonas> ais523: no no, if the string (supposed you know the length) is parenthisized, you execute it, then the characters get pushed into the stack, and you can execute them one by one
20:12:25 <b_jonas> ais523: as in, you can use a to parenthisize them
20:12:41 <ais523> b_jonas: a parameterizes an entire stack element, it doesn't break the string into characters
20:12:49 <ais523> ~~ and :! are equivalent; (~~) and (:!) are also equivalent
20:12:53 <ais523> and both equivalent to ()
20:12:58 <b_jonas> you, but ^ opens the parenthesis, doesn't it?
20:13:14 <ais523> b_jonas: it just moves the contents of the TOS onto the program
20:13:27 <ais523> (~~)^ is equivalent to (:!)^ is equivalent to ~~ is equivalent to :!
20:13:32 <ais523> none of them do anything :-P
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20:13:51 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and if that element it moved is a parenthesisized block, then doesn't executing the block push each of the elements to the stack?
20:14:07 <oerjan> b_jonas: you did notice my comment about underload to you above, right?
20:14:31 <ais523> b_jonas: if you move ((~~)) to the program you end up with (~~) in the program, which then pushes (~~) to the stack
20:14:45 <ais523> can you give an example of what you're /expecting/ to happen? it feels like you have some sort of fundamental misconception here
20:14:51 <oerjan> that rule 110 program is the :^ parser
20:16:02 <ais523> come to think of it, I suspect that strings of :^a are parseable
20:16:07 <ais523> I'd be pretty surprised if they weren't
20:16:19 <ais523> oh, except if you have a then ^
20:16:22 <ais523> with nothing in between
20:16:59 <oerjan> i concluded : and a were parseable, but more complicated than what i did, and also uglier.
20:17:00 <ais523> and strings like a:^ would also cause problems
20:17:16 <oerjan> but no other 2 character combinations work
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20:17:24 <ais523> :a is obviously parseable, because the result of a never affects the second stack element
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20:17:40 <ais523> meaning that you can create a sentinel value that does to act as your zero
20:17:40 <b_jonas> ais523: I expect that the program (xy) puts x and y to the stack (x on top), so (xy)!^ will try to execute y, and (xy)~!^ will try to execute x
20:18:00 <ais523> b_jonas: ah, right, your problem is that the stack isn't a stack of characters
20:18:03 <ais523> it's a stack of strings
20:18:12 <ais523> (xy) pushes a single element, xy, to the stack
20:18:17 <ais523> then ^ moves that element as a whole into the program
20:18:22 <b_jonas> sure, it's a stack of strings because ((xy)) pushes a single string (xy) to the stack
20:18:38 <ais523> normally we put parens around each stack element when discussing Underload
20:18:39 <b_jonas> doesn't executing a parenthesis open it to the stack?
20:18:42 <oerjan> i forgot that S is useless, so you have only 8 usable chars, so clearly 3 bits is impossible, right
20:18:52 <b_jonas> what the heck is the point of that?
20:18:53 <ais523> oerjan: and ( and ) have to be paired
20:18:57 <b_jonas> why doesn't it open the parens
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20:19:05 <ais523> b_jonas: because that would be an entirely different language
20:19:08 <b_jonas> I mean, if you don't want to open the parens, you can just a^ instead of ^
20:19:27 <ais523> actually in Underlambda I'm going the other way, removing S
20:19:45 <b_jonas> this makes underload much harder to program
20:19:47 <ais523> this allows you to optimize code both inside the stack and inside the program
20:19:48 <ais523> it becomes a pure functional language because the stack elemenets are entirely opaque
20:20:29 <oerjan> ais523: ( and ) pairing is not _really_ a problem as i think that gives only o(something) contribution to the no. of bits.
20:20:42 <oerjan> but any nop like :! is fatal
20:21:01 <ais523> b_jonas: Underload's meant to be about function representation, not string manipulation
20:21:18 <b_jonas> ais523: it's not "string manipulation", more like tree manipulation
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20:21:34 <b_jonas> because it manipulates elements that are either letters or parenthisized trees
20:21:45 <b_jonas> it doesn't manipulate individual characters of a tree
20:21:55 <ais523> actually Overload worked like that
20:22:12 <b_jonas> did I accidentally invent a language?
20:23:19 <ais523> perhaps, I don't like it though :-(
20:23:23 <rdococ> what about a language where a sentence is an array of words
20:23:26 <ais523> the set of commands doesn't make much sense in this language
20:23:27 <rdococ> and a word has a meaning
20:23:31 <ais523> you'd probably want a string compare command too, at least
20:23:56 <rdococ> cat is the noun, ate is the verb, dog is the subject, or victim
20:24:17 <b_jonas> ais523: no no, not a string compare command
20:24:25 <b_jonas> I'd want a nop command though, probably space and newline
20:24:42 <b_jonas> make that space, tab, lf, cr
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20:25:22 <ais523> b_jonas: this is like having C, plus a command that breaks a function pointers into individual asm opcodes in the function it points to
20:25:30 <ais523> and yet have no way to determine what those opcodes are other than executing them
20:26:22 <b_jonas> I'm reminded to two obfus in other languages: the lua one I wrote that uses the same string as both code and data so that if you try to tamper with the code then the output breaks completely, and pts's obfu in dc which uses the same strings as both code and data: dc can't really examined things so I thought that was impossible, but it turns out dc has a length command that queries the length of a string
20:27:28 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I can see why you don't like that concept
20:27:51 <ais523> it's just a mix of paradigms that doesn't make sense
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20:36:13 <HackEgo> 471) <itidus20> lets not wander around the mulberry bush beating our heads
20:36:29 <int-e> fungot: do you know any berries?
20:36:29 <fungot> int-e: ( and i've only seen ocean from far above in a positive light)
20:37:02 <oerjan> perhaps it was deleted.
20:37:02 <b_jonas> so in the description of Underload at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Commands , the stack top is on the right, not on the left like other such descriptions usually denote, right?
20:37:18 <int-e> that sounds very malancholic, fungot.
20:37:18 <fungot> int-e: the description sounds like fnord talk to me instead
20:37:21 <fungot> b_jonas: proposals only last 15 minutes of fame? guile? you don't get special food, but they look exactly the same for cl, not fnord two of those
20:37:37 <b_jonas> fungot: have you read the SIGBOVIK 2016 proceedings?
20:37:37 <fungot> b_jonas: http://www.fourmilab.ch/ hotbits/ with fnord key and browser with fnord?) has a problem. whom should it be:
20:37:39 <oerjan> b_jonas: i thought on the right was standard forth-notation?
20:38:28 <oerjan> int-e: will you show them all?
20:38:41 <int-e> oerjan: no I'm just waiting for this stupid day to pass.
20:39:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: I guess top on right makes sense in a forth/postscript-like language where lots of statements are literal so just push on the stack, so the stack often looks similar to the code
20:40:08 <shachaf> int-e: What's wrong with today?
20:40:16 <HackEgo> olist 1032: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:40:31 <oerjan> b_jonas: anyway half the point of the notation we've settled on is that it makes it easy to see underload execution as a program transformation - where stack elements don't need to be distinguished from the program.
20:41:07 <b_jonas> and it seems that http://www.cs.cornell.edu/icfp/task.htm puts the stack top on the right as well
20:41:38 <b_jonas> it's just not so obvious from descriptions like this because most operations would make sense to define with the inputs in any order
20:41:40 <FireFly> int-e: #ircpuzzles is a good way to spend April 1 (and 2 and 3 and.. well, it usually takes a while to solve them)
20:41:49 <b_jonas> and in any case you can permute the stack top elements before running the command
20:41:52 <FireFly> (it's a yearly tradition to have puzzles on April 1)
20:41:57 <Taneb> I am awful at writing documentation]
20:42:07 <Taneb> Especially when it's a program which I know how it works
20:42:27 <Taneb> And didn't intend anyone else to use it when I was writing it
20:42:53 <FireFly> noh that was an evil olist
20:44:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46714&oldid=40261 * B jonas * (+5)
20:44:58 <oerjan> shachaf: you may have had your fun, but what about YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL?
20:45:28 <oerjan> it may be in peril tdnh
20:45:58 <shachaf> didn't you just say it was immortal
20:47:00 <oerjan> yes, but not pain resistant
20:47:26 * Taneb is finally writing a page for COMPLEX
20:48:12 * Taneb has largely forgotten the art of wiki page writing
20:51:21 <rdococ> who needs conditionals
20:51:39 * Taneb needs conditionals
20:52:00 <rdococ> you could remove the IF from Lua and it'd still be turing complete
20:53:15 <rdococ> proof: local code = {true = function () print("yay") end, false = function () print("nay") end}; code[3 > 2]
20:53:56 <rdococ> say bye to for loops too
20:54:18 <rdococ> and any other non-necessary construct
20:54:34 <rdococ> I will strip Lua and make a turing tarpit called TarLua... or EsoLua...
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20:57:42 <b_jonas> ais523: it turns out that one thing that confused me about underload is this: in the (stackbefore – stackafter) style description of stack-based language operations, including underload at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Commands , the stack is listed with the top of stack on the right, but this isn't obvious at first.
20:58:08 <ais523> b_jonas: this is standard for Underload; I'm not sure if it's mentioned on the page
20:58:13 <ais523> I write it in most of my writing about it though
21:01:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46715&oldid=46711 * Iconmaster * (+2538) Got a lot of information from the site onto the wiki
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21:14:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46716&oldid=46714 * Iconmaster * (+10) Stub'd
21:15:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pylongolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46717&oldid=46708 * Iconmaster * (+34) Stub'd
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21:16:11 <Taneb> Do we have a stub template?
21:16:19 <Taneb> I can't be bothered to write this article right now
21:16:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46718&oldid=46707 * Iconmaster * (+10) Stub'd
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21:19:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Iconmaster]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46719&oldid=37163 * Iconmaster * (-75)
21:22:41 <iconmaster> Hello. Suddenly felt like coming back and helping with some wiki stuff. How's it going?
21:24:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bulan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46720 * Rdococ * (+925) It's still Turing complete. I think. I'll leave the exercise of proving that it's TC up to you.
21:24:58 <myname> https://youtu.be/QScVVDwxSWA procrastinating like a pro
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21:29:49 <\oren\> i ordered a elektronika mk-61 calculator
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21:39:27 <zgrep> \oren\: A soviet calculator, neat.
21:40:11 <Taneb> oerjan, how do I apply the stub template
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21:44:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[COMPLEX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46721 * Taneb * (+345) Start making this article
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21:46:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46722&oldid=46691 * Taneb * (+14) /* C */ Add COMPLEX
21:47:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nathan van Doorn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46723&oldid=35933 * Taneb * (+13) Add COMPLEX
21:48:01 <hppavilion[1]> I'm attempting to make a regex family called Irgex, with support for 2D matching and TC matching and all of these nice things
21:48:34 <myname> actually, there are 2d regex
21:48:37 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Why limit it to the Gaussian Integers? Why not allow real values in general?
21:50:05 <myname> i actually used these in my thesis
21:52:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm trying to find different classes of expressions
21:53:09 <hppavilion[1]> The first I define is the π-expression, which is the traditional x+y, -z, [i], etc.
21:53:36 <hppavilion[1]> There's also the α-expression, which is a generalization of s/// and y///
21:53:38 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], reasons
21:54:10 <hppavilion[1]> I'm stuck there though. Are there any other fairly general types of expression?
21:56:22 <zgrep> For a group of esoteric language creators, I'm surprised that the wiki doesn't auto-generate the list of languages...
21:57:04 <zgrep> All pages that are programming languages should be put in a category (or tagged, or something) "language", and the list would automatically update...
21:57:37 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Do you know of any other types of expression besides the traditional arithmetical and x///?
21:57:53 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Not sure exactly what you mean...
21:58:16 <zgrep> Regular expressions?
21:58:24 <zgrep> Yes, but I don't know what an expression is...
21:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: An expression is some predefined set of symbols combined with more expressions, basically
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21:59:06 <zgrep> Ah. How... how... [insert word here].
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22:08:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fuun DNA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46724 * B jonas * (+3506) Created page with "'''Fuun DNA''' is a self-modifying string-rewriting language. It was defined for the task of the ICFP contest 2007 (“Morph Endo”). == Description == The DNA of the extr..."
22:10:11 -!- boily has joined.
22:10:17 <lambdabot> CYUL 012200Z 27020G27KT 15SM FEW030 FEW045 10/03 A2941 RMK CU1SC2 CU TR SLP963
22:10:24 <lambdabot> ENVA 012150Z 08003KT 9999 SCT045 BKN060 04/M03 Q1011 RMK WIND 670FT 18006KT
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22:13:13 <oerjan> boily: there was snow on the ground this morning
22:13:29 <boily> WE DON'T HAVE SNOW ANYMORE! WE'RE FREE! MWAH AH AH AH AH AH!
22:13:38 <oerjan> new snow, that is. there's some old in parts.
22:14:20 <Taneb> I haven't seen snow since... last Tuesday
22:14:25 <Taneb> But that was up on some high hills
22:15:38 <boily> Tanelle. there's snow where you are at?
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22:16:35 <lambdabot> EGNT 012150Z 18010KT 150V220 9999 SCT023 08/04 Q1007
22:16:50 <Taneb> boily, it was in the Lake District
22:17:06 <lambdabot> KOAK 012153Z 25012KT 10SM FEW025 17/08 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP222 T01670083
22:17:11 <Taneb> The bit of England with things that are almost mountains
22:17:38 <shachaf> Taneb: Is that like the Lake Union district in Seattle?
22:18:06 <shachaf> You did mention something about using Seattle public transit the other day.
22:18:40 <Taneb> I distinctly mentioned not using Seattle public transit
22:21:13 <shachaf> So how do you get around the Lake Union district?
22:21:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fuun RNA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46725 * B jonas * (+1034) Created page with "'''Fuun RNA''' is a graphic description language. It was defined for the task of the ICFP contest 2007 (“Morph Endo”). == Description == The RNA of the extraterrestrial..."
22:21:34 <oerjan> i've used seattle public transit. i think.
22:21:35 <Taneb> shachaf, solid boots
22:21:41 <Phantom_Hoover> the room i ended up in got two pianists who are now playing live
22:22:11 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What's this chat thing?
22:22:22 <shachaf> oerjan: was it before i was born or something
22:22:40 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Can I find out about it without logging in?
22:22:59 <oerjan> shachaf: were you born in 1996?
22:23:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46726&oldid=46722 * B jonas * (+30) + Fuun DNA, RNA
22:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, not without scraping a bunch of idiots trying to work it out
22:25:23 * boily carbon dates shachaf
22:26:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46727&oldid=46672 * B jonas * (-95)
22:26:10 <shachaf> you can't just carbon date people
22:26:40 <shachaf> oerjan: not more than one at a time, if you're carbonogamous
22:27:07 <oerjan> i think you are switching the wrong part of the word tdnh
22:27:44 <shachaf> i got a pun quota to meet here
22:28:23 <b_jonas> oerjan, ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal has a webchat link to here through qwebirc. I prefer the kiwi irc webchat to qwebirc. Should I replace the webchat link, replace the webchat link but mention qwebirc as an alternative, add a kiwi irc link as an alternative, or do nothing?
22:28:23 <oerjan> well you're doing the pun equivalent of cockney rhyming
22:28:49 <b_jonas> Note that kiwi irc doesn't require people to fill a captcha, which can be considered either an advantage or a disadvantage.
22:29:04 <shachaf> oerjan: you can only carbon date people if you're carbonogamous
22:29:13 <b_jonas> Do we have a category for a language that is known to be weaker than Turing complete?
22:29:27 <b_jonas> Fuun RNA is not turing complete.
22:29:38 <b_jonas> boily: it's not equivalent to a PDA
22:29:42 <boily> shachaf: the original pun was 0.9 shachafs, but the remastered version... 0.55 shachafs.
22:29:47 <ais523> b_jonas: if there are multiple working webchats you should probably list all of them and put your favourite first
22:30:22 <b_jonas> boily: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_RNA although that page doesn't tell enough to glaen the computational strength, you have to read the specs
22:30:46 <fungot> boily: oh yeah?! well you're a funny guy, though.)
22:31:11 <b_jonas> ais523: ok. I'll test if it still works first though.
22:31:53 <oerjan> b_jonas: i thought the one that was listed was freenode's official webchat. they've blocked others on occasion i think.
22:32:18 <shachaf> boily: what's the threshold for a mapoling
22:32:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, qwebirc is what the freenode admins themselves run, and they suggest it on their homepage
22:33:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: as in, freenode runs a qwebirc webchat server itself which lets you connect to freenode
22:33:25 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Do we have a category for a language that is known to be weaker than Turing complete? <-- not a general one, no
22:33:34 <b_jonas> But I prefer kiwiirc. Advantages include that it lets you connect to any irc network.
22:33:35 <ais523> we have specific sub-TC categories
22:33:45 <ais523> and most sub-TC languages are either in one of them or very very weak
22:34:09 <oerjan> <boily> fungot: glaen? <-- like glean, but you might get a leprechaun curse if you're not careful.
22:34:10 <fungot> oerjan: oh ok. they are comparable. the resistance is useless. it's not all that magical.), tell me
22:34:28 <boily> shachaf: somewhere below 0.5, give or take a few subjective centishachafs.
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22:34:49 <shachaf> is this a logarithmic unit or what
22:34:57 <b_jonas> ais523: Fuun RNA is very weak in some sense, yes
22:35:12 <b_jonas> But it has a high constant factor
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22:35:54 <b_jonas> It can be executed in linear amount of memory, but the constant factor is quite high because it involves 600x600 pixel 4 channel 8 bit image canvases.
22:36:03 <boily> shachaf: it's a semilogarithmic one hth
22:36:18 <hppavilion[1]> One that can be used to generate language descriptions automatically. Then I'll make it so Hackego can spit them out
22:36:18 <b_jonas> At least so I think. I'm not quote sure how Fuun RNA works really.
22:36:24 <b_jonas> You'd have ot read the specs.
22:36:33 <b_jonas> But I'm quite sure it's weaker than turing
22:36:59 <shachaf> boily: how does that work fcir
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22:37:55 <oerjan> b_jonas: linear memory fits the bounded-storage machine category
22:38:25 <boily> shachaf: it's logarithmic for the most part, but then it gets linear for things approaching zero. avoids problems with derivatives and infinite slopes.
22:38:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: which category is that? link?
22:38:54 <oerjan> it's an unofficial one
22:38:56 <b_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Bounded-storage_machine
22:39:09 <oerjan> the last edit was me trying to get rid of it...
22:39:19 <b_jonas> That doesn't really say what it means, and I'd think it means constant bounded
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22:39:55 <b_jonas> 003624 < b_jonas> You'd have ot read the specs.
22:40:17 <b_jonas> url is https://kiwiirc.com/client/chat.freenode.net/#esoteric by the way
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22:41:37 <hppavilion[1]> What is the maximum length hackego can send as a message?
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22:42:16 <shachaf> boily: 15:40 <shachaf> Oracle deprecated the Java browser plugin this year. :-(
22:42:20 <oerjan> b_jonas: ok you want linear bounded automata
22:42:24 <shachaf> 15:40 <shachaf> javascript more like java's crypt
22:42:40 <shachaf> gotta calibrate this thing
22:42:46 <hppavilion[1]> (That moment when you search for how do do something in bash for HackEgo, but you look up how to do it in HackEgo specifically and thus get no relevant results)
22:42:53 <b_jonas> What's with xkcd today? All it says is “The xkcd April 1st comic is currently experiencing technical difficulties.” and shows wednesday's comic.
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22:43:43 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Either the xkcd April 1st comic is currently experiencing technical difficulties, or that's the joke
22:44:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, but Fuun RNA is probably actually weaker than a PDA (I'm not quite sure), and definitely weaker than arbitrary linear bounded machine, probably can be executed in linear time.
22:44:39 <hppavilion[1]> `` cat /dev/urandom | tr -dc 'a-zA-Z0-9' | fold -w 200 | head -n 1
22:44:41 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: that can't be the joke. there have never been a MWF with no strip.
22:44:50 <boily> hppavilion[1]: that feels weird. Randall always had nice Apriljokes.
22:45:01 <HackEgo> Mx6laZBPgxJpUlcgwwSY1G7kHxefQnSM6PVVhkb9G5OJBeDSnhKXXXBMa5v7MnG7SSirBK2SYXdYRZT9lpdeOeOS3YVRWNQ22lY7uFjAjHdf3nMFqs3UqtC6Ob5aH5kTf5bGLDUvKwDq3gJrJdZdPHr8YDxO0dFXH7hFHmiElMFP7vuRXrUUZOYFXQso6I9NSLguieFJ
22:45:06 <b_jonas> And xkcd is never experiencing technical difficulties.
22:45:14 <b_jonas> I think there's probably a comic, it's just well hidden so I can't see it.
22:45:37 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> What is the maximum length hackego can send as a message? <-- 350 bytes
22:45:38 <hppavilion[1]> One of my teachers shaved his glorious lumberjack beard, making him look 10 years younger so he could pretend to be a new student at the beginning of class by just sitting at a desk
22:45:52 <b_jonas> But the problem is, either the explainxkcd.com folks can't see it either, or for some reason they thought the joke of hiding it is funny and don't want to spoil it (yet).
22:45:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm pondering making `longcat, which prints out multiple messages
22:46:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: longcat: not found
22:46:49 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I somehow did that without realizing the pun xD
22:47:04 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oh, you're "pondering making"
22:47:13 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: `longcat would be like cat, but it prints multiple messages to show the whole file.
22:47:21 <oerjan> b_jonas: anyway, most of the categories are upper bounds, so it's fine to be weaker.
22:47:26 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: yeah, but it doesn't exist
22:47:34 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: we have a command that pastes to a website instead
22:47:37 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: But would also be useful for long HackEgo messages
22:47:52 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: The problem is I don't think there's a way to make HackEgo print more than one message
22:48:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: but the wiki says the linear bounded automata is an equivalence actegory, not an upper bound
22:48:59 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Unless HackEgo has some direct-to-IRC command <-- nope.
22:49:01 <b_jonas> anyway, if any of you figure out which category applies (for which you may have to read and ponder the spec very carefully, for it's an esolang so the comp class may not be obvious, even after the definition), and read the wiki descriptions of categories, feel free to add it
22:50:22 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: jevalbot is also bounded output, it won't print more than 6 lines of output per evaluation command (in my default config and in evalj; j-bot has the limit raised to I don't know how many lines)
22:52:07 <b_jonas> You can print 6 full lines instead of an ellipsis in the sixth line, but you can't print more than six
22:52:12 <Taneb> ...do we have two different bots specifically for evaluating J
22:52:20 <b_jonas> Taneb: no, it's the same bot, two instances
22:52:26 <evalj> b_jonas, jevalbot source is http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz
22:52:31 <j-bot> b_jonas, jevalbot source is http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz
22:52:49 <Taneb> b_jonas, I think I was using "bot" to mean "account associated with an instance of a bot"
22:53:28 <b_jonas> We used to have three different irc bots that can evaluate J, namely besides jevalbot, buubot used to be able to evaluate it (I wrote the J evaluator plugin myself), plus NotJack had a bot he wrote in J.
22:53:56 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: evalj is my instance but I don't run it constantly, only very occasionally start it up and then stop it within a day when I turn off my home computer
22:53:59 <Taneb> Can EgoBot? If not, why not?
22:54:22 <b_jonas> Taneb: it would probably be possible to install a J interpreter to hackego
22:54:33 <hppavilion[1]> I can't get my IRC client to work for some reason...
22:54:34 <b_jonas> we could even do it as a user
22:54:42 <b_jonas> but it would output only 1 line per command of course
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22:58:00 <Taneb> I'm heading to bed now
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23:02:50 <boily> @localtime shachaf
23:02:52 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Fri Apr 1 16:02:50 2016
23:10:58 <zgrep> @localtime lambdabot
23:10:58 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
23:11:25 <lambdabot> Local time for zgrep is Fri, 01 Apr 2016 23:11:25 GMT
23:18:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NetBytes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46728 * Iconmaster * (+4415) Created page with "'''NetBytes''' is a language created by [[User:iconmaster]] in [[:Category:2016|2016]]. It severely limits the available memory and program length of programs, instead requir..."
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23:20:06 <iconmaster> Well, it's been years, but I'm finally making another esolang.
23:20:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Iconmaster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46729&oldid=46719 * Iconmaster * (+64)
23:23:39 <hppavilion[1]> For some reason, my IRC client won't connect properly. It times out
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23:42:51 <boily> you lack ambition. test more! FOR SCIENCE!
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23:54:25 <fungot> prooftechnique: hm. that's not hardcore enough for you... but unfortunately, regardless of whether i _think_ i want a glass of merlot.
23:55:41 <fungot> test stringtest stringtest string
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00:01:43 <boily> quintopia: you know that kind of feeling when the features you've been slaving on for the past months suddenly stop working for no apparent reason?
00:12:29 <HackEgo> |a+b@| = { √(a²-b²) if a²-b² ≥ 0 ; i√(a²-b²) if a²-b² < 0 }
00:12:31 <boily> what the? being hacked?
00:13:01 <quintopia> and then i opened a new terminal and connected again and suddenly it turns out they had been
00:13:38 <boily> and rdococ hies again.
00:13:48 <boily> this chännel seems to be temporally misaligned...
00:14:27 <quintopia> well tell me all about these features
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00:14:47 <boily> didn't start the day very well, but at least I got stuff back in order. superhackmode overclocking! and now I'm completely drained.
00:15:03 <HackEgo> `mk/Everything's better with `mk.
00:15:06 <HackEgo> eto/Eto is the ageless laughing first minister.
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00:15:27 <boily> quintopia: my team and I work with everything related to interchange of information between dentists, labs, manufacturers, production centers...
00:15:46 <HackEgo> zkstr/zkstr is a common consonant cluster at the start of Russian words, see eg. http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/metro-typo-2
00:15:48 <zgrep> It's surprisingly difficult to get a rubber egg to type things on my keyboard by bouncing on it...
00:16:02 <zgrep> zkstr... heheheh. :D
00:16:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So do you have any interest in that hacking game?
00:16:25 <boily> quintopia: subcontracting some kinds of orders. our software supports crowns, bridges, implants, bite splints, orthodontic models, partials, full dentures... if a dentist can jack that stuff in your mouth, we do it.
00:16:41 <hppavilion[1]> We could generalize it to a GameOS (not a real OS, of course. I'm far too stupid for that.)
00:17:17 <boily> quintopia: some order types got suddenly broken because we've been working on new ID tracking features in the background, with more complex management features.
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00:18:00 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
00:18:11 <HackEgo> `learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
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00:18:21 <boily> quintopia: so I committed atrocities in our codebase. there's duplicative code repetetition, but at least it has the merit to be explicit. and properly spelled!
00:19:09 <boily> (there are some code snippets we like to circle around on Slack. sometimes, programmers aren't in the sanest of mindsets, and you can glimpse half-self-discussions in comments.)
00:19:51 <quintopia> will you get a chance to dry out the code later?
00:20:08 <boily> after the release!
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00:21:14 <boily> the softeng VP agrees that whole part is bonkers, and that we should rig it with shaped explosives as soon as we can.
00:21:56 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Hm?
00:22:27 <boily> quintopia: the problem is that the first layers were quickly hacked as an afterthought by interns some years ago, then left to ferment and sediment.
00:22:41 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: It should be neither Von Neumann nor Harvard
00:26:17 <boily> quintopia: I shouldn't complain much, really. all in all, it's a pretty sweet gig I got, and devs aren't treated as meager code monkeys.
00:26:34 <boily> (I'm informally known as the Electric Octopus guy instead :D)
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00:28:08 <boily> quintopia: Octopus because I like Japanese culture, Electric because in dry weather I'm prone to ESD.
00:29:07 <hppavilion[1]> There is a bus from the memory to the CPU AND the ALU
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00:29:28 <hppavilion[1]> And from the CPU to the output, and the input to the CPU
00:30:11 <quintopia> boily: is octopus the eternal symbol of japan?
00:30:22 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: I want it to be stored-program unless there's some more eso idea
00:30:29 <boily> it is, in my cow orkers' minds...
00:30:46 <rdococ> is that how you treat your co workers?
00:31:00 <boily> rdococ: our team lead is Goat :D
00:31:49 <boily> we have emoji injokes. a loaf of bread symbolizes acceptance. an orange (fruit) means you are late.
00:32:14 <quintopia> is that why your steam avatar is orangey
00:32:21 <boily> we sacrifice eggplants when we cast votes to know what we are going to eat for lunch.
00:32:31 <boily> ah no, that's a kaki. much difference.
00:34:16 <tswett> Taunt (Characters you control that don't have taunt can't be attacked.)
00:35:58 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What kind of architecture would an esoteric processor use?
00:36:04 <boily> wait. steam avatar. I got oranges over there...
00:39:24 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~wl/icprojects/papers/reduceron08.pdf might be of interest here
00:42:04 <boily> we don't have any lime emoji yet. if I remember to, I'll add one next Monday ^^
00:42:16 <boily> rdococ: in which context twh
00:42:43 <rdococ> your name was kaki in chat, so I assumed that's what it meant
00:48:15 <boily> I think we have a chili emoji somewhere. haven't been used much afaik.
00:48:27 <boily> no snails either. lots of cats on the other hand.
00:49:02 <zgrep> quintopia: Acute angles and judging books by their covers, respectively.
00:49:15 <boily> there's the Bell of Shame, the Kleenex Box of Bad Pun Retribution...
00:50:51 <quintopia> what does the blurry face of mr. boily represent
00:50:56 <tswett> Why are there squirrels?
00:51:15 <boily> eh? there's a blurry face of me?
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00:53:58 <hppavilion[1]> boily: My family has in-jokes in the form of finite strings of english letters and punctuation
00:54:02 <boily> there's a custom boilyface emoji we have. generally used when someone does something boilylike...
00:54:19 <boily> I give you a hamburger. the world is in sepia. a mime cries.
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01:03:58 <quintopia> work over, which means boily may sleep soon...but who knows on friday
01:04:16 <boily> only about 15 minutes left for me.
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01:20:29 <boily> horizontal time. 'night all!
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01:43:56 <rdococ> what does youtube's "snoopavision" look like?"
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02:19:38 <Sgeo__> rdococ, a 360 video of the video in a theater with Snoop Dogg commenting on it
02:19:49 <Sgeo__> It's only supported for a few videos
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02:55:29 <FreeFull> https://github.com/olofson/audiality2 Making music with this could be interesting
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03:49:14 <rdococ> how was the first assembler programmed?
03:50:03 <shachaf> it's one of the great unsolved mysteries
03:50:54 <rdococ> I'm trying to think of esoteric versions of assembly instructions
03:51:17 <rdococ> what about MOV but with line numbers
03:51:30 <pikhq> By assembling by hand, I believe.
03:51:48 <pikhq> Which isn't that *hard*, just tedious.
03:52:19 <shachaf> Assembling is a task like any other task.
03:52:32 <rdococ> the assembly would be called ASS, because it should be a real pain in the ass to program in
03:52:49 <rdococ> and before you complain, brainfuck.
03:55:56 <pikhq> I'm afraid ASS is already a subtitle format.
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04:23:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seriously]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46730&oldid=46208 * Mego * (-50) Heroku is defunct
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04:45:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46731&oldid=45779 * Ais523 * (+698) the computational class issues here are actually at least mildly interesting
04:46:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46732&oldid=46731 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Reference implementation */ I know I made a typo, but MediaWiki's response to it was weird
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04:49:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BASICER]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46733 * Ais523 * (+388) another "language" with the same computational class
04:54:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!Tautologos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46734 * Rdococ * (+1434) !Tautologos == false
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04:55:26 <rdococ> so you're saying my languages aren't really languages?
05:00:11 <rdococ> but they're better than derivatives of brainfuck
05:04:05 <ais523> Wizards' April Fools joke has a Momir Basic decklist
05:04:14 <ais523> and talks about how innovative it is for playing only four of the five basic lands
05:04:22 <ais523> there are 11 basic lands :-(
05:04:32 <ais523> and they added one only last set!
05:04:39 <ais523> which surely they should have remembered about
05:06:55 <rdococ> I don't have a good imagination...
05:07:45 <ais523> rdococ: I wasn't accusing your language of not being a language
05:07:55 <rdococ> I want a good imagination
05:07:57 <ais523> I was accusing PowerPoint, which has the same computational class, as not being a language
05:08:09 <ais523> i.e. your language and a non-language have the same capabilities
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05:22:45 <rdococ> My emotions are way out of whack when I need sleep.
05:22:54 <rdococ> So I act weirdly. Yay!
05:23:43 <rdococ> Error: "SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP" is not a valid instruction
05:24:34 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: *Sigh*. What kind of language are you running?
05:24:52 <rdococ> Error: SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP is not a valid instruction
05:25:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP: not found
05:25:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP: not found
05:25:28 <rdococ> Perhaps you mean "sleep" instead?
05:26:59 <rdococ> What? How do you even call a dictionary?
05:27:20 <izabera> "hey dictionary come here"
05:27:22 <rdococ> AbstractRdococFactory.sleep?
05:27:39 <rdococ> Haha, very fun--er, I mean, Hey is an invalid instruction.
05:28:01 <rdococ> AbstractRdococFactory is an associative array.
05:28:06 <rdococ> Or dictionary, or table.
05:28:30 <rdococ> It has a few functions, one of which is :CreateRdococ()
05:28:45 <rdococ> To get the current instance of me, use :GetCurrentRdococ()
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05:29:38 <rdococ> No, AbstractRdococFactory isn't a function to make a new factory. It is one.
05:30:07 <rdococ> What you wanted was AbstractRdococFactory.GetCurrentRdococ.sleep(28800000).
05:30:41 <rdococ> No, I meant AbstractRdococFactory.GetCurrentRdococ().sleep(28800000).
05:31:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: AbstractRdococFactory.DestroyCurrentRdococ()
05:31:39 <ais523> huh, you can overload main in perl 6
05:31:39 <rdococ> Error: Cannot destruct Rdococ without something to take its place
05:31:53 <ais523> a different main runs depending on which one can parse the command line arguments
05:31:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: AbstractRdococFactory.DestroyCurrentRdococ(AbstractComputerFactory.GetCurrentHppavilion()[1])
05:32:26 * ais523 wonders who was being …ed at
05:32:27 <rdococ> rdococ: AbstractRdococFactory.DestroyCurrentRdococ(AbstractComputerFactory.GetCurrentHppavilion()[1])
05:32:29 <ais523> it could have been either of us
05:33:26 <hppavilion[1]> A factory is a pattern to replace constructors (IWINLTM)
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05:33:43 <hppavilion[1]> Is a treatment plant a pattern to replace destructors?
05:34:56 <ais523> you could actually do that in Rust
05:35:06 <ais523> you can't easily do it in Java or the like though because it's GCed
05:35:32 <ais523> (where "that" = "create an object that has a method you can pass an object to to destroy it in a custom way")
05:35:39 <rdococ> But doesn't that mean I des⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎWhat in the hell?
05:35:49 <rdococ> I nearly got collected by the garbage collector.
05:35:58 <rdococ> Thank goodness I could outrun it.
05:36:04 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: How long did you spend making that message?
05:36:21 <rdococ> Um...├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎYou mean me?
05:36:33 <rdococ> ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐Stop it, hppavilion[2]!├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐No!
05:36:36 <ais523> @łe¶ŧ←↓→øþþþþþþþþþþþþþþ
05:36:51 <rdococ> Who are you ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐talking to?
05:37:06 <rdococ> S ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐e ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐r ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐i ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐o ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐u ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐s ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐l ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐y
05:37:23 <rdococ> I would love to design an esoteric processor.
05:37:33 * rdococ is now googling a processor
05:37:54 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I don't want to use Von Neumann or Harvard if I can avoid it, but I still want it to be stored-program, as unstored-program is stupid
05:37:59 <rdococ> what kind of processor?
05:38:24 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Stored-program means the program is loaded from memory
05:38:47 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Not really "unstored", but "stored somewhere else"
05:38:58 <rdococ> what about a processor which doesn't have transistors?
05:39:11 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: We're emulating it, so transistors don't matter
05:39:18 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Look at the diagrams for Von Neumann and Harvard
05:39:59 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Von_Neumann_Architecture.svg and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Harvard_architecture.svg
05:40:46 <rdococ> "A central processing unit (CPU) is the electronic circuitry within a computer that carries out the instructions of a computer program by performing the basic arithmetic, logical, control and input/output (I/O) operations specified by the instructions."
05:40:52 <rdococ> You mean that kind of processor?
05:41:21 <rdococ> The ones that have assembly programming languages?
05:41:26 <ais523> clearly we need an esoteric food processir
05:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, that kind of processor. But memory is part of this processor
05:43:26 <rdococ> Unless esometer is the name of your esounit.
05:43:44 <rdococ> This is getting more and more esoteric as time goes on. Esotime.
05:43:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: An esometer measures distance from metal and distance apart relative to the metal
05:44:17 <rdococ> Esolet's esoprefix esoevery esoword esowith esoeso.
05:44:19 <hppavilion[1]> Haskell is far above the metal, python less far, C fairly close, ASM a single esometer, and electrons are 0
05:46:23 <rdococ> Are we actually going to emulate the actual units themselves - something like Logisim, or just draw it?
05:47:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Do you know of any online notepad++-like collaborative editors?
05:47:25 <rdococ> Also, what exactly does control mean?
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05:49:06 <rdococ> My connection died on me...?
05:49:11 <rdococ> What was the quit message?
05:49:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Pierce is the God of Freenode. He randomly kills connections for fun.
05:50:06 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
05:50:26 <hppavilion[1]> It's definitely a meme and totally not something I just made up.
05:50:34 <rdococ> Sounds like such a jerk. *gets disconnected*
05:51:12 <rdococ> So if I ask someone else about it, they'll say he exists?
05:52:08 <hppavilion[1]> (It's no longer April Fool's where I live, so you're safe)
05:52:23 <rdococ> (6:51:56 AM) Catelite: No
05:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: If you like, we can have complex opcodes if you can figure out a way to accomplish it
05:53:57 <rdococ> I think we shouldn't implement arithmetic.
05:54:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: We should, but it should treat all numbers as imaginaries
05:54:26 <rdococ> That would certainly be weird.
05:54:47 <hppavilion[1]> So instead of 256 sequential opcodes, we can have something like a 16x16 array of opcodes
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05:56:43 <rdococ> That's it, I'm connecting an alt to see my disconnect messages.
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05:57:28 <rdococ> Well, if Pierce does it for the second time, then I know.
05:57:55 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: He usually only does it to a user once every few years
05:58:44 <rdococ> How did he manage to pick me of all people?
05:58:56 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No, he does it to /all/ users once every 1 or 2 years
05:59:10 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: He has a list that he shuffles then iterates over
05:59:30 <rdococ> How are we going to collaborate on the processor?
06:00:08 <zzo38> I have made many of farbfeld utility programs. It includes ffpng and pngff (similar to the ones on their webpage but don't require libpng), as well as: ff-back, ff-bright, ff-colorkey, ff-composite, ff-enlarge, ff-info, ff-matrix, ff-padsynth, ff-poster, ff-printf, ff-scanf, ff-solar, ff-turn.
06:00:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: There's an "Arithmetic and Logic unit" in most processors. Why don't we also have an "Algebra and Nonsense Unit"?
06:00:32 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, we should split the ALU into the AU and the LU
06:01:14 <rdococ> Or, why not make things awkward by removing the LU, but not the AU?
06:02:25 <rdococ> Why not make a GPU that's intended to be used as a CPU?
06:04:14 <rdococ> Why not have multiple processors that work together?
06:04:50 <rdococ> The RWPU, the APU, the LPU, the NPU, the GPU, the SPU, the ZPU, the HPU, the RPU...
06:05:53 <rdococ> Read & Write Processing Unit, the Arithmetic Processing Unit, Logic Processing Unit, Nonsense Processing Unit, um
06:06:30 <rdococ> Or let's get rid of the control unit and make a declarative esoprocessor?
06:08:14 <rdococ> I'm leaning towards Prosembly
06:08:26 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: How does it process in a machine-doable way without a list of sequential instructions w/ jumps?
06:08:46 <rdococ> I'm thinking about that.
06:09:40 <rdococ> Well, first it evaluates the output. To do that, it needs to check the rules to see if they apply. If they do apply, apply them.
06:10:56 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Oh! A language based on looping through a list of possible conditional transformations and applying them until a termination case is reached!
06:11:39 <rdococ> Isn't that basically Prolog?
06:12:22 <rdococ> Well, either way, its assembly could go like this-
06:12:51 <rdococ> mov father, (parent, male) or something?
06:13:19 <rdococ> That's pseudo assembly for copying the meaning of being a parent, and being male, to being a father.
06:13:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Uhuh. And how the hell does that work on a machine level? With binary registers and shit?
06:14:19 <rdococ> What if father, parent and male are memory addresses?
06:14:38 <rdococ> What if we need to make father point to both parent and male?
06:15:52 <rdococ> father (0000) -> parent (0001), male (0010)... then in pseudo assembly, mov father 0011?
06:16:08 <rdococ> well, flag like things.
06:19:40 <rdococ> But my mov [0000] 0011 makes sense, right?
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08:10:48 <zgrep> rdococ: mov or or?
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10:06:21 <ais523> huh, so on a whim, I decided to look up virustotal's results for the eicar test file
10:06:33 <ais523> two scanners failed to detect it, and one false-positive detected it as something else (!)
10:07:13 <ais523> that is some level of failure
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12:37:29 <myname> rdococ: are you still trying to make your own wannabe-prolog?
12:40:35 <b_jonas> ais523: is it at least possible to decode strings that are made of arbitrary combinations of ^ ~^ :^ !^ ? Because that would already be slightly more than a bit of information per source byte.
12:41:50 <ais523> ooh, good catch, I think it is
12:42:06 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it might be extendible
12:42:21 <b_jonas> I'm just trying to set a baseline first
12:42:38 <ais523> seems possible but also seems like a pain
12:42:58 <ais523> probably you could do : ^ ~^ :^ !^ *^
12:43:10 <ais523> err, not :^ in addition to : and ^ obviously
12:43:28 <b_jonas> Maybe I should try and write a decoder. (Then you'll also need to write a channel encoder, possibly an arithmetic compression one, in underload, but that shouldn't be VERY hard.)
12:44:01 <ais523> I shouldn't work on this when tired
12:44:02 <b_jonas> ais523: well, I was thinking of !!^ as an addition
12:44:25 <ais523> you could probably make it work with any specific finite number of ! actually
12:44:33 <b_jonas> But first I should try to decode JUST the four clusters ^ ~^ :^ !^
12:44:41 <ais523> and any specific finite number of :
12:44:53 <ais523> (and any specific finite number of ! followed by any specific finie number of :, perhaps?)
12:45:15 <b_jonas> ais523: well sure, but just any finite number of ! tends to a finite limit of information, so it's not worth to go very far.
12:45:39 <oerjan> ending things with ^ seems like a good idea because that's sort of the point where you hand control back to the decoder
12:45:41 <b_jonas> Well, obviously, since you certainly can't go above four bits per source bytes in information density.
12:45:55 <b_jonas> I dunno, I should try a basic one first
12:46:02 <b_jonas> to learn how underload works
12:46:26 <b_jonas> Is there a good underload interpreter that's fast, and one that helps debugging?
12:46:43 <ais523> JS interpreter on the esoteric files archive is good for debugging but slow
12:46:44 <b_jonas> I mean ones that are known to be correct on all inputs.
12:47:07 <ais523> well nobody implements the escape syntax
12:47:24 <b_jonas> I can also try to write an interpreter myself of course, because why not.
12:47:46 <oerjan> you could have the top of the stack be something like ((:*:*)P)((::**)P)((:*)P)(()P)
12:48:06 <oerjan> where P is a program that checks what numbers are on the stack in the known positions
12:48:22 <oerjan> and decodes what the part of your code before ^ did from that
12:48:46 <oerjan> that doesn't work as written
12:49:03 <oerjan> because P cannot find the numbers without executing the P's inside
12:49:04 <b_jonas> no no, don't tell me, I'll try to figure out myself, that way I'll learn more of how underload works.
12:49:27 <b_jonas> But of course feel free to implement something like this yourself if you want.
12:49:31 <oerjan> i was just trying to think of a general scheme that could work with many ...^ codes
12:51:20 <oerjan> hm that kind of scheme only really handles : ! and ~
12:51:40 <oerjan> oh which is what you were trying, essentially
12:51:48 <b_jonas> the interesting thing would be to find a code that involves some parenthisized sequences too, like ()~^ I'm not sure if that's possible (at least in a meaningful way where you could't just write : instead of ()
12:52:53 <b_jonas> it could even be sequences that have something in the parenthesis, possibly even a sequence of parenthisized stuff without any ^ outside
12:53:13 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Well, obviously, since you certainly can't go above four bits per source bytes in information density. <-- three
12:53:14 <b_jonas> but that's not likely to be more efficient than the simple het thing
12:53:36 <b_jonas> oerjan: I don't remember how many valid characters there are exactly
12:54:00 <b_jonas> S can probably be ignored because a program can't distinguish it form !
12:54:22 <oerjan> b_jonas: right, and then there are 8 remaining
12:54:25 <b_jonas> so apart from that there's ~ : ! * ( ) a ^ that's eigh characters indeed
12:54:35 <b_jonas> yup, then definitely below 3 bits per source char
12:55:36 <oerjan> obviously the true limit _will_ hit the halting problem at some point, when you start trying to include as arbitrary nested programs as you can
12:56:38 <oerjan> (intuitively, that is. not a proof.)
12:58:19 <oerjan> <prooftechnique> Does HackEgo evaluate underload? <-- it does.
12:58:45 <oerjan> `! underload (:aSS):aSS
12:59:09 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, but I need something with lower latency than HackEgo
12:59:10 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/ul: not found
12:59:30 <ais523> oerjan: I was about to do that :-D
13:00:04 <oerjan> but fungot is probably most convenient for irc lines
13:00:04 <fungot> oerjan: well it depends on which implementation you are using?"?
13:00:28 <oerjan> i guess EgoBot is better if you want to do something heavy...
13:00:49 <oerjan> since iirc it uses ais523's C implementation
13:01:08 <ais523> that impl isn't hyperoptimized, IIRC
13:01:22 <oerjan> you'd imagine it beating befunge, still
13:01:48 <ais523> oh, it is a pretty optimized one
13:04:19 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> this chännel seems to be temporally misaligned... <-- helloily
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13:08:49 <HackEgo> `learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
13:09:10 <oerjan> it looked in the logs like i'd put space between [s] and [punctuation]
13:11:57 <HackEgo> disflagrate/disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized.
13:12:52 <HackEgo> Defenestration is the traditional Czech system for voting out government officials.
13:12:57 <HackEgo> 916) <olsner> boily: the man eating chicken is just a normal man, it's quite common to eat chicken in some parts of the world
13:13:49 <HackEgo> wat/Angkor Wat is a famous temple complex in Cambodia. It is the largest religious monument in the world.
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13:36:36 <olsner> (and a humorous review of the inconsistent type conversion practices of ancient cambodia)
13:37:52 <int-e> is the "u" one funnny?
13:37:57 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/u
13:38:22 <HackEgo> oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
13:38:39 <int-e> seems to have historical value of sorts..
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13:45:16 <int-e> hmm, sourts is an acidic version of sorts.
13:45:42 <HackEgo> Brains are just receptacles for bricks.
13:46:57 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; echo *blaster*
13:47:27 <HackEgo> brainf**k/There is no such thing as brainf**k. You may be thinking of brainfuck.
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14:23:06 <zzo38> ais523: In Magic: the Gathering there are eleven basic lands but I would call the five of them the "conventional basic lands".
14:23:43 <ais523> apparently there's some debate about whether Wastes is actually useful in Momir Basic
14:23:46 <ais523> it theoretically could be
14:25:11 <zzo38> Does Momir Basic allow all basic lands or only conventional basic lands?
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14:25:35 <b_jonas> What's your starting life total and effective starting hand size in Momir Basic?
14:25:54 <b_jonas> It's an online-only format so I haven't paid much attention to it.
14:27:33 <zzo38> Actually it is possible to play with cards too; you would have to make up your own list of valid cards otherwise you might have too many
14:29:11 <b_jonas> Wait wait, does the Momir avatar card have exactly the same English name as the real black-bordered card of Momir Vig from the Ravnica block?
14:29:20 <b_jonas> How can they have the same names?
14:30:43 <b_jonas> are all avatar cards like that?
14:34:57 <b_jonas> I assumed they had different suffixes, just like how different cards representing the same in-story famous characters have different suffixes
14:35:15 <zzo38> The avatar has the word "Avatar" at the end, apparently
14:35:35 <zzo38> So the name is not the same
14:36:21 <zzo38> (It has a different printed name from canonical name it seems)
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14:39:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: whoa... there are very few cards with a different printed name from canonical name. There's the Ærathi Berserker in legends, Atinlay Igpay from unhinged, the BFG from unhinged, and... I don't know if there's more
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14:44:26 <rdococ> so all the cards have a picture of a cannon on them?
14:44:37 <b_jonas> rdococ: no, but Goblin Cannon has one
14:44:57 <b_jonas> I like that card for a nostaligic reason.
14:45:12 <rdococ> a cannon made out of goblins?
14:45:42 <b_jonas> rdococ: no, only the cannonball is
14:45:50 <b_jonas> it's a cannon that fires a goblin
14:46:28 <b_jonas> Although maybe it's Goblin Artillery that fires goblins
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14:53:58 <int-e> Love this sentence. "The Heise Method is an intuitive method for solving the whole cube, but is very difficult to understand."
14:55:04 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, “intuitive” is used in a technical sense by cubers, although I think it's a manager style of word that tries to sound good but actually means something bad
14:58:48 <int-e> I like the sentence because it hilights that fact.
15:02:24 <int-e> hmm. "F (R U R' U') F' f (R U R' U') f'" ... F is awkward enough, but how do they even dream of doing f quickly...
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15:22:48 <zzo38> The printed text on the Alpha "Birds of Paradise" card does not match what Gatherer says the printed text is.
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15:37:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: does it match on the Beta version?
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16:32:00 <zzo38> The YZIP picture library format supports pictures with up to sixteen colours (one of which may be transparent), and stores each pixel as the current colour index XOR the one above, and then run-length-encodes the result, and then the result of that is huffed. What is the way to optimize the order of colours in the palette (and if less than sixteen, which ones to duplicate, if any)?
16:40:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46735&oldid=46625 * 95.103.41.106 * (+476) Added Kotlin implementation
16:48:25 <zzo38> Is there any better way than just trying all combinations?
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17:22:16 <quintopia> flight cancelled, flight delayed, by the time we get on the plane, we could have driven
17:22:39 <zzo38> I have been told that this document is difficult to understand by some people: https://www.npmjs.com/package/genasync How would you suggest to make improved document?
17:23:23 <quintopia> replace it with a harry potter fanfic. everyone understands harry potter
17:25:02 <Kaynato> Hello, quintopia, have you seen the changes to the Daoyu specification? Is it better now?
17:26:06 <zzo38> No, it is a JavaScript package
17:29:06 <quintopia> Kaynato: can you annotate some example progs to explain how they work? that would be a lot clearer than trying to interrupt what paths do
17:30:17 <Kaynato> Alright, I'll do that ASAP
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18:19:18 <b_jonas> Can git use checksums other than sha-1 these days? Obviously you can't just convert all existing objects, but maybe there's a sane migration path?
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18:34:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daoyu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46736&oldid=46712 * Kaynato * (+10985)
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19:01:01 <Kaynato> Is that better, quintopia?
19:02:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daoyu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46737&oldid=46736 * Kaynato * (+12) minor formatting
19:05:14 <Kaynato> May be of interest: http://phys.org/news/2016-03-language-cells.html
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19:14:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46738&oldid=46349 * 79.213.190.167 * (-3) /* External resources */ linkfix
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20:20:16 <b_jonas> argh! why's my comupter slow?
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21:06:45 <zzo38> Do you have any ideas about the optimization of YZIP picture libraries?
21:10:34 <int-e> is this part of your X11 redesign or have you moved on?
21:10:59 <zzo38> No it is unrelated
21:15:12 <int-e> oh this is part of the infocom thread?
21:16:57 <zzo38> It does have to do with Infocom
21:23:31 <int-e> I really wish you would establish some context for your questions. The first thing I found in this case was a program called "YZIP" by a company called "Yellow Software", apparently for Symbian...
21:24:08 <int-e> (And no, I don't.)
21:27:05 <zzo38> Z-machine does not require specific formats to be used for picture libraries. I am calling this format "YZIP picture library" because it is documented together with that Z-machine version. (The other format is "XZIP picture library" format, which does not support compression or colours, and as far as I know is not in use.)
21:28:56 <zzo38> (A few XZIP implementations even use YZIP picture libraries. "XZIP" and "YZIP" here are versions of Z-machine code, although they are not related to the picture library formats except by being documented together.)
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21:32:14 <zzo38> One idea I did think of is two pass compression, where it first encodes in the simple way and calculates the Huffman tree, and then encodes again by using RLE codes that compensate for the generated Huffman tree and then create a new tree.
21:33:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: that might work, I dunno
21:33:48 <b_jonas> wait, it's using RLE only, not general copies from back?
21:33:57 <b_jonas> (as in, copy from any previous offset)
21:34:11 <b_jonas> (at least within some distance limit)
21:34:23 <b_jonas> then I'm not sure it helps much
21:44:30 <zzo38> It is not DEFLATE; only RLE and Huffman, although each scanline is XOR by the scanline above
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21:48:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: it needn't be deflate specifically, there are also simple compression schemes with copying from back but a simple fixed encoding of the references and literals instead of a variable huffman coding.
21:49:27 <zzo38> Yes I suppose LZ77, although in this case I would want to figure out optimization with this particular scheme and not DEFLATE or LZ77.
21:49:37 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: do you mean that the RLE code itself is going to be a part of tree?
21:50:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's at least easier to solve
21:50:48 <b_jonas> although you may need something more tricky to find the optimal huffman table
21:51:02 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Both the pixel values (the ones XOR with the above) and the RLE codes are part of the Huffman tree
21:51:34 <lifthrasiir> (or residual coding, whichever you prefer)
21:52:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: how many different pixel values (colors) are there?
21:52:12 <zzo38> b_jonas: Up to sixteen.
21:52:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: are you allowed to break the image to chunks with different huffman tables?
21:53:21 <zzo38> No, although different pictures can share tables or use different ones
21:54:27 <b_jonas> Hmm, are you allowed to change the huffman table in the middle of a JPEG image? I think you're not allowed to change the _quantization table_ which is a big problem.
21:54:49 <zzo38> I don't know how JPEG works, although I could try to look up to see
21:54:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: what size are these pictures?
21:56:18 <zzo38> The Z-machine pictures may be of any size, but are generally of low resolution
21:57:59 <boily> @tell oerjan hellørjan.
22:09:24 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+036D COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+036F COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER X]
22:09:24 <pikhq> If I'm reading this right, you can change both the Huffman *and* quantization tables in JPEG.
22:09:24 <b_jonas> pikhq: in the middle of an image? really?
22:09:28 <b_jonas> (although it's probably hard to find an encoder that can actually produce such a jpeg)
22:10:01 <b_jonas> There's an image I'd really like to encode that way.
22:10:48 <b_jonas> (Well, ideally I'd like browsers to just start supporting more modern image formats so that I don't have to stick to jpeg and png and gif, but you get the idea.)
22:16:51 <pikhq> Yeah, it certainly looks as though the spec permits you to insert a new quantization table between DCT blocks.
22:17:06 <pikhq> (from a somewhat quick reading of the relevant section of the JPEG spec)
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23:17:30 <boily> homemade miso soup is good ^^
23:17:36 <lambdabot> oerjan said 10h 13m 17s ago: <boily> this chännel seems to be temporally misaligned... <-- helloily
23:17:36 <lambdabot> shachaf said 4h 45m 10s ago: please don't read this message in public twh
23:17:53 <boily> shachaf: hellochaf. sorry.
23:25:33 <Sgeo__> What's the list for Homestuck?
23:29:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lists: not found
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23:32:38 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
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23:39:19 <Sgeo__> `slist Homestuck has been updating since 3/28
23:39:22 <HackEgo> slist Homestuck has been updating since 3/28: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:39:46 <Sgeo__> I wasn't aware until today
23:42:32 <olsner> http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.se/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
23:45:32 <Taneb> Sgeo__, it's not going to update tomorrow, but EOA6 will be Tuesday I think
23:45:33 <int-e> hmm. <oerjan> sed -i \'s/elliot *$/alot/\' bin/list
23:47:15 <olsner> hmm, what did happen to elliott? any particular calamity that made him disappear or did he just find something better to do?
23:47:31 <int-e> codu's logs are letting me down
23:48:49 <boily> can you download codu's logs for offline grepping?
23:49:14 <int-e> it used to support rsync, but these days I have to use wget...
23:49:36 <int-e> Gregor's letting us down!
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00:03:55 <boily> `relcome Lilly_Goodman
00:04:13 <HackEgo> Lilly_Goodman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:04:16 <boily> and where's that Spanish version again...
00:04:21 <boily> `welcome.es Lilly_Goodman
00:04:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome.es: not found
00:04:27 <boily> `bienvenido Lilly_Goodman
00:04:34 <HackEgo> Lilly_Goodman: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
00:08:09 <int-e> olsner: I'll stop digging... that "alot" link came after the "alot" entry in bin/list (later to become bin/slist)... reading logs I believe Bike added el liot to that list against his wishes and oerjan defused it (in a private message, 2 days later).
00:09:13 <int-e> (this kind of archeology is fun but takes too much time...)
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00:12:54 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Probably because of the massive botnet I'm subhosting through it
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00:27:23 <boily> hppavellon[1]. b_jonas says "argh"?
00:27:56 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Yeah, b_jonas is a pirate. Did you not know?
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00:32:14 <boily> b_jonas: b_jellonaaaaaarghs.
00:32:27 <boily> hppavilion[1]: somebody you know?
00:33:29 <boily> hppavilion[1] (~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net) a quitté (Quit: Connection reset by Pierce)
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01:26:25 <HackEgo> precision/78.75211317% of the time precision is totally overrated.
01:27:02 <HackEgo> Elronnd desperately wants this entry to say something.
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01:27:26 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
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01:53:22 <Anarchokawaii> has anyone ever thought of making a scope oriented language
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01:58:26 <\oren\> maybe I should add phoenician
01:59:42 <\oren\> no i apparently speled it right the first time
01:59:53 <\oren\> it's just a weird looking word
02:02:09 <\oren\> scope oriented? what would that mean?
02:03:08 <Anarchokawaii> would be oriented about which scope something is in
02:03:50 <Anarchokawaii> i just think it kinda is annoying that you are limited to 3 scopes in most programming languages
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02:21:32 <zzo38> What would the other scope be?
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02:27:37 <Anarchokawaii> like if you had some like : if(if(if(if()))). you could make the variable using in the first and third if statements
02:29:53 <Kaynato> had some fun :) https://i.gyazo.com/8433cd03d9dcefe42e89123c3d8af385.png
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02:33:25 <zzo38> I suppose the syntax highlighter does not work with trigraphs?
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02:56:53 <rdococ> Anarchokawaii: why not make scopes the reason the language is TC?
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02:57:41 <zzo38> rdococ: If there is a way to do that, then OK
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03:42:40 <zzo38> BlooP/FlooP is still just as powerful if the IF command is removed
03:43:14 <Kaynato> The last obfuscation couldn't run with -O3 enabled! I touched it up and now it's good https://i.gyazo.com/83683468854e449240973064166db01b.png
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03:59:43 <izabera> does anyone know the gif format well enough to write a gif mostly by hand?
04:00:02 <izabera> http://giflib.sourceforge.net/whatsinagif/bits_and_bytes.html i'm reading these docs and some things are confusing
04:00:51 <izabera> like, what's the difference between the color resolution and the size of the color table? :\
04:00:57 <izabera> in their example it's the same value
04:01:00 <zzo38> I don't know it well enough, although I have once written a program to alter the palette of a GIF picture
04:01:49 <izabera> i'm just writing a program to generate a gif from a go match
04:02:33 <quintopia> izabera: i suppose one could write an uncompressed gif by hand, but i aint gonna try to get optimal lzw compression with mental math :p
04:02:54 <izabera> well i'll do uncompressed first
04:03:57 <izabera> surely it won't take too much space anyway, it uses like only 3 colors and at most ~300 frames
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04:11:54 <quintopia> if i wanted to generate go gifs from move lists
04:12:20 <quintopia> because it is easy to output animated gifs
04:13:49 <izabera> but i want to do it by hand :3
04:14:09 <izabera> like learning purposes i guess
04:14:23 <quintopia> by typing bytes into a text editor one by one?
04:14:57 <izabera> just generating them will be fine
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04:16:30 <izabera> i already have a way to do it, with a program called sgf2misc
04:17:00 <rdococ> you know how there are games of "werewolf" in irc channels?
04:17:00 <izabera> and it outputs separate gif files and you have to create the animation with imagemagick
04:17:16 <rdococ> why hasn't a murder mystery game been ported to irc yet?
04:17:37 <zzo38> You could also to output PNG or Farbfeld, and then combine with ImageMagick (and ffpng if necessary)
04:17:39 <izabera> https://i.imgur.com/9L90oYk.gif sample output
04:18:06 <quintopia> https://github.com/quintopia/gifslideshow
04:19:16 <zzo38> Yes it is big endian, although it can still be use
04:19:51 <izabera> zzo38: too late i've already wrote like 5 lines of code so i have to finish this now
04:20:50 <izabera> and i just downloaded a 3mb gif of quintopia's dog and i'm tethering on my mobile
04:21:13 <quintopia> hope you bought a lot of bandwidth
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04:28:24 <quintopia> izabera: heres a better example at only 80mb! http://rutteric.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/river_crossing.gif
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04:30:17 <quintopia> dolphin crashes trying to load and display it
04:32:05 <quintopia> izabera: heres a small one showing all the frames of the gif blended together: http://rutteric.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/action_river_crossing.png
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05:42:33 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 44m 34s ago: hellørjan.
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06:08:32 <pikhq> Hum. There's actually an SSH client for DOS.
06:08:39 <pikhq> This oddly doesn't surprise me.
06:14:43 <oerjan> Kaynato> May be of interest: http://phys.org/news/2016-03-language-cells.html <-- definitely suspicious about the date, here
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07:43:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daoyu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46739&oldid=46737 * Oerjan * (+2) Tone marks, just because
08:16:44 * oerjan thinks his brain won't understand Daoyu on the first few iterations.
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09:22:00 <Taneb> If a language is 1-dimensional textually but 2-dimensional conceptually
09:22:22 <Taneb> Should it be categorized as "Two-dimensional languages"?
09:23:39 <ais523> Taneb: see how I categorised Formula :-D
09:24:33 <Taneb> The language I'm thinking about is COMPLEX, which I need to finish the article for but is described on my esolangs page
09:24:37 <ais523> more seriously, Paintfuck fits your description and doesn't seem to be categorized as multi-dimensional
09:25:06 <ais523> I'd call COMPLEX two-dimensional
09:25:13 <Taneb> Instructions are conceptually laid out on a grid but written sequentially with line numbers describing their location a la BASIC
09:26:28 <Taneb> I feel like COMPLEX is the language of mine I'd have the easiest time writing a compiler for
09:28:10 <Taneb> I might give it ago after my exam on the 15th
09:28:25 <ais523> well, the physical order of the source doesn't matter, right?
09:28:37 <ais523> just like you can line-permute a BASIC program and it doesn't change the meaning
09:29:22 <Taneb> I ran the example program through shuf
09:29:48 <Taneb> Is this a "syntax is the least important part of a language" situation?
09:31:01 <ais523> I think so, unless you're trying very hard to make it relevant
09:31:10 <ais523> (which in this case you might be; I'm not sure)
09:31:45 <Taneb> The syntax was where I started with the language
09:31:59 <Taneb> I wanted BASIC but with complex line numbers, and a way to make them useful
09:32:31 <Taneb> And then I added features until I thought it had enough features
09:32:41 <Taneb> And then I removed GOTO because I realised it wasn't necessary
09:33:25 <Taneb> That's basically how the language happened
09:34:50 <Taneb> I mostly did it to see how easy it was to use Alex and Happy for lexing and parsing in Haskell
09:35:31 <Taneb> (the answer is "easier than I expected, and for this an awful lot easier than parsec"
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10:11:37 <rdococ> ugh, I'm trying this old "mirc" client again because I want to make an IRC bot and I'm too lazy to use anything that's actually remotely useful
10:17:33 <rdococ> ais, I'm not actually using it right now
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13:08:20 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
13:08:24 <boily> I'm out of coffee!
13:28:10 <int-e> must be a glitch in the matrix -- watch out for agents!
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13:38:09 <\oren\> boily: quick , to the national coffee repository in Alert!
13:41:33 <boily> Alert is far, and cold, and I need to take a shower, and...
13:42:10 <boily> I'll simply go to that new hipster café on the corner.
13:43:02 <boily> all because my favourite place to get freshly ground beans is closed on Sundays.
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14:11:32 <\oren\> I prefer Italian coffeeshops
14:12:05 <\oren\> mostly for familiarity
14:13:15 <\oren\> I wonder where the Georgian alphabet came from?
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14:17:07 <b_jonas> \oren\: someone saw the rich history of the {Phoenician, Greek, Coptic, Latin, Blackletter, Old Church Slavonic, Russian, Serbian} family of alphabets, with all the crazy variants of cursive writing that gave rise to different sets of lowercase letters, and decided to one-up it,
14:17:14 <b_jonas> just to show that he's the best conscripter ever.
14:18:03 <b_jonas> \oren\: and they hid a lot of evidence to fool archeologists that it has a two thousand year old history, plus mind controlled ten thousand people to start teaching it.
14:18:46 <b_jonas> \oren\: She probably also saw the Armenian alphabet, and correctly figured out that that's the *wrong* way to create an alphabet not derived from phoenician.
14:21:25 <Taneb> That does not render for me
14:22:27 <Taneb> I went to look at the alphabet on Wikipedia
14:22:29 <\oren\> I recently noticed that my font is missing some Georgian letters
14:22:45 <Taneb> It looks... influenced by Cyrillic/Greek/Latin
14:23:39 <\oren\> yah, armenian looks like alternate-universe latin or something, while georgian looks like nothing I can describe
14:24:12 <b_jonas> Taneb: the typography of Georgian is influenced a lot by Greek, Latin, Cyrillic, whereas Hebrew and Arabic and Braille and the American Sign Language fingerspelling have completely different typographical conventions from Latin.
14:25:00 <Taneb> \oren\, Georgian and Burmese I get mixed up
14:25:11 <b_jonas> Taneb: However, the letter shapes of Georgian aren't derived from Phoenician, Greek, Latin etc, whereas the letter shapes (and alphabetic order where approperiate) of Hebrew, Arabic, and some of european Braille and ASL fingerspelling _are_ derived from it.
14:25:29 <b_jonas> The typography and the letters are two different dimensions.
14:26:04 <\oren\> Taneb: ooh, interesting
14:26:31 <Taneb> I'd be extremely surprised if they share a common influence, though
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14:28:17 <\oren\> ⤴⤵⤶⤷ <- unicode doesn't appear to have the reverses of any of these arrows
14:28:27 <b_jonas> And just like how Latin and Cyrillic had tons of different historical variants that look unlike each other at first, Georgian does too.
14:28:53 <Taneb> I do find it interesting that Hangul (Korean alphabet) was designed specifically and intentionally to be easy to learn
14:29:21 <int-e> \oren\: it would be fun if LTR/RTL switched the directions of arrows
14:30:41 <HackEgo> Duck typing means typing on a terminal blinding without an echo.
14:31:58 <int-e> duck typing is a survival competition involving typewriters on a shooting range
14:32:13 <b_jonas> `slashlearn duck typing/Duck typing means typing on a terminal blindly without an echo.
14:32:24 <HackEgo> Duck typing means typing on a terminal blindly without an echo.
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14:33:46 <int-e> Duck typing is the art of telling apart members of the anatidae family.
14:36:42 <\oren\> I can't even teel the difference between geese and swans
14:37:32 <Taneb> \oren\, you should go to the other York University
14:37:40 <Taneb> We've got thousands of the blighters
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14:38:20 <\oren\> the best I can do in identifying them is "look it's a big duck"
14:38:51 <Taneb> (you are at York University, Toronto, right? Or am I getting you mixed up?)
14:39:09 <\oren\> you're getting me mixed up with my dad
14:39:23 <Taneb> I knew there was a connection
14:39:33 <Taneb> I'd like to visit, mostly to annoy my friends at uni
14:39:46 <Taneb> I'm a student at University of York, York
14:40:30 <\oren\> my dad has gone to University of York, deliberately to cause confusion
14:41:02 <Taneb> There's one person in the computer science department here who is apparently a professor at both
14:42:01 <Taneb> https://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~paige/
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14:49:10 <HackEgo> York used to be known as Amsterdam.
14:49:28 <b_jonas> I assumed he meant a professor of both computer science and some other science.
14:49:39 <b_jonas> Like mathematics or birdology.
14:50:27 <int-e> surely you mean numerology
14:50:49 <b_jonas> No, birdology. The science of duck typing.
14:52:01 <Taneb> b_jonas, both universities, I should have been clearer, sorry
14:53:09 <int-e> the "at" should've been enough of a hint
14:55:04 <Taneb> int-e, not necessarily, one can be an attorney at law
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14:55:28 <Taneb> I wouldn't be surprised if there was an English dialect wherein one could be a professor at computer science
14:56:19 <b_jonas> maybe I didn't read careful enough to pick that up, or maybe I just don't read English well enough to pick that up
14:56:39 <int-e> "Usually, if born in a multiple-of-12 year, like 1980, you’re a Monkey."
14:57:24 <b_jonas> This interpretation game can be much funnier when you read an unclear sentence in an old book where you can't ask the writer, and try to figure out what he meant by grammatical nuances
14:57:58 <b_jonas> I played it at http://french.stackexchange.com/q/12410/6114
14:59:02 <Taneb> int-e, Chinese zodiac?
14:59:10 <Taneb> I'm year-of-the-dog, I think
15:00:06 <int-e> wtf, https://missashleyfirstgrade.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/prepositions.png
15:02:46 <int-e> And yes, Chinese zodiac. I was curious what the animal of the year is.
15:03:25 <b_jonas> int-e: that reminds me to bonsaikitten
15:04:23 * int-e is failing to parse "bonsaikitten" as a verb
15:04:46 <b_jonas> `learn Bonsaikitten is the cat typing behind the glass of the CRT when you run the cat command.
15:04:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'bonsaikitten': Bonsaikitten is the cat typing behind the glass of the CRT when you run the cat command.
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15:10:29 <int-e> so apparently there's a german punk rock band called "Bonsai Kitten" ... inspired by the hoax, of course.
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16:18:45 <\oren\> prepositioning is the art of placing troops in strategically advantageous places efore the outbreak of conflict. Joseph Stalin was total fail at this.
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17:10:07 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> olsner: I'll stop digging... [...] <-- pretty much as i remember it, anyway.
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17:43:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merthese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46740&oldid=40960 * 50.160.119.44 * (+70) Add Tari's LLVM-backed compiler
17:45:22 * oerjan saw this in norwegian and managed to google the english version http://www.gocomics.com/wumo/2016/03/28
17:47:42 <oerjan> (oh and it's political hth)
17:54:51 <boily> a race of Trump hairdos? what next will come out of Norway...
17:55:11 <oerjan> boily: denmark, actually
17:55:34 <oerjan> <\oren\> I work at Soundhound <-- you should design a digital duck whistle for Taneb twh
17:56:16 <oerjan> actually, soundhound should be something that can track ducks by sound.
18:00:05 <fizzie> SoundHound's Android app has annoying notifications.
18:00:48 <oerjan> <Taneb> I'm year-of-the-dog, I think <-- hey me too! that means you're 24 years younger than me hth
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18:11:52 <HackEgo> [U+26E8 BLACK CROSS ON SHIELD]
18:12:32 <\oren\> hmm is that a unicode symbol for crusades?
18:12:51 <oerjan> you'd think that should be red cross
18:14:28 <oerjan> hm knights templar seem to be red, while knights hospitaller are white on black
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18:19:58 <oerjan> \oren\: oh, the teutonic order is black on white. not quite the same style though.
18:24:01 <boily> 24? aren't there only twelve Chinese zodiac signs?
18:24:48 <oerjan> boily: yes, but i don't think Taneb is 12 years younger than me.
18:25:13 <oerjan> or 36, for that matter.
18:26:32 <boily> one never knows! Tanebiology is a weird domain.
18:26:51 <boily> also, any other dragons in this chännel?
18:26:59 <int-e> twist: Taneb is 24 years older than oerjan and has been fooling us all about his age.
18:28:09 <HackEgo> wisdom/thanks ants \ wisdom/thausiblee \ wisdom/the \ wisdom/thé \ wisdom/the meaning of life \ wisdom/the neverending work \ wisdom/theory \ wisdom/the question \ wisdom/the reals \ wisdom/the them \ wisdom/the torus \ wisdom/the u \ wisdom/the universe \ wisdom/the us \ wisdom/things boily likes \ wisdom/thirt \ wisdom/this \ wisdom/this sentenc
18:28:18 <HackEgo> A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action.
18:28:31 <HackEgo> Thé is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in the Commonwealth.
18:29:18 <oerjan> `learn Caffè is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in Italy.
18:29:25 <HackEgo> Learned 'caffè': Caffè is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in Italy.
18:30:40 <\oren\> I have no idea if there is a difference between é and è or what that difference might be
18:30:59 <int-e> è is much more grave.
18:31:02 <\oren\> To me they're all "e with a thingy on top"
18:31:50 <\oren\> I can tell the difference between e with a thingy and e with two thingies on top though
18:32:19 <b_jonas> \oren\: but they're completely different things! the grave accent is what Italian uses to mark the stressed syllable, the acute accent is what Russian uses to mark the stressed syllable. Isn't that obvious?
18:32:34 <ais523> I'm trying to work out what circumstances in which the name "thausiblee" would be useful
18:32:45 <ais523> "thausible" is mostly used for hypothetical actions, right?
18:33:04 <ais523> it means that ignoring practical implications, there isn't an obvious reason why the action couldn't be taken
18:33:15 <ais523> so is "thausiblee" for hypothetical situations too?
18:33:51 <\oren\> speaking of accents why does ÿ exist?
18:34:18 <\oren\> does german umlaut y into like a u or something
18:34:43 <ais523> "replacing someone's brain with a brick is difficult, but if you're talking about placing a brick in their stomach, person X would make a good thausiblee"
18:35:11 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think the y with umlaut is messed up in my font
18:35:53 <b_jonas> \oren\: and it exists but it's VERY RARE. like, it occurs in French place names and other proper nouns that they didn't want to spell normally, just for the kicks. there's no point to actually have that letter, compared to y
18:36:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NetBytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46741&oldid=46728 * Iconmaster * (+200) Added the connection stack. I think it's necessary for any interesting computational class.
18:37:07 <ais523> could it be used as a diaresis?
18:37:15 <ais523> when vowel-y immediately precedes another vowel?
18:37:21 * ais523 tries to think of a word where that happens
18:37:46 <b_jonas> hmm, ỳ and ý and ŷ are messed up too
18:38:19 <b_jonas> ais523: what diphtongue would that prevent?
18:38:39 <boily> \oren\: ÿ exists in French for extremely uncommon village names hth
18:38:40 <ais523> I'm not sure if there are any dipthongs that start with y
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18:39:32 <ais523> hmm, how is "ayy" (as in "ayy lmao") pronounced?
18:39:34 <boily> é represents a é sound, where è is è hth
18:39:36 <ais523> in particular, is it a tripthong?
18:40:04 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it would be the same as ay
18:40:27 <b_jonas> ais523: that is, probably something like /ɛi/ or /ei/
18:40:37 <ais523> b_jonas: in which case, a ÿ would be theoretically useful in the sequence aÿy
18:40:45 <boily> \oren\: /lai.lɛ.ʁoz/
18:41:01 <ais523> because it'd be pronounced as ay-y, not ayy
18:41:03 <iconmaster> Of course, I also pronounce "lmao" like "luh-mouh", so don't trust me here.
18:41:06 <b_jonas> ais523: would it make multiple /i/ sounds one after the other? I don't think that's actually a pronunciation distinction they pronounce
18:41:18 <b_jonas> wait, let me look up, there are conjugated verbs with "ii" in the written form
18:41:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mychal * New user account
18:41:39 <boily> b_jonas: in French? yes, there are.
18:41:43 <b_jonas> also, there was a relevant entry on David Madore's blog with a word that he thinks should be spelled with ö
18:42:03 <b_jonas> (which is not a letter than normally exists in French)
18:42:32 <ais523> b_jonas: ay-y where the second y is a consonant, as opposed to ayy which is one vowel
18:43:43 <ais523> like, say you pay someone in yams
18:43:45 <b_jonas> ais523: /i/ is either a vowel, or a semi-vowel spelled /j/, which is just /i/ but shorter. I don't think /ij/ would be distinguished from /i/ thus.
18:43:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FISHQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46742&oldid=46267 * Mychal * (+1843) Added Kotlin implementation
18:43:59 <ais523> those would be paÿyams, whereas "payyams" might be pronounced "paiams"
18:44:09 <\oren\> I thought ayy was pronounced like the letter A as /ej/
18:44:44 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, you might be right
18:45:10 <b_jonas> ais523: https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Annexe:Conjugaison_en_fran%C3%A7ais/rire says riiez is pronounced /ʁij.je/
18:46:01 <b_jonas> well, I never really understood how the french semi-vowels are supposed to work
18:46:19 <\oren\> maybe the /i/ is a bit more toaward /ɪ/ and glides up toward /i/?
18:46:38 <\oren\> and they write that as /ij/
18:46:52 <b_jonas> I pretend they're just variants of vowels that the linguists invented to claim that the two meanings of "suis" are distinguished in pronunciations
18:47:12 <oerjan> <b_jonas> is this about thaums <-- no, we're just splitting hairs. at least in the realities that survived, hth.
18:49:23 <oerjan> * ais523 tries to think of a word where that happens <-- cyanide hth
18:49:45 <ais523> oerjan: doesn't really work because "ya" doesn't have a pronounciation as a single vowel
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18:54:17 <b_jonas> ah, found it! it's http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-08-07.2061.html#d.2012-08-07.2061 and it's even more ridiculous than I remembered
18:55:06 <b_jonas> he suggests the spelling “arguë́”, with an e with diæresis and acute accent, as well as “arguöns” with an o with diæresis
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19:02:22 <b_jonas> (he also suggests a new grammatical tense for verbs, and I know way too little about the already existing grammatical tenses in French to be able to make sense of what that even means)
19:16:39 <oerjan> for actions that are _quite_ finished.
19:17:17 <oerjan> wait, composter doesn't mean that in french?
19:19:28 <oerjan> hm wiktionary is _very_ confusing on the issue.
19:20:10 <oerjan> ah french wiktionary is better, it does mean that too.
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20:00:50 <hppavilion[1]> I have a theory about time travel in (this) universe
20:01:05 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: is the theory that it's impossible?
20:01:06 <hppavilion[1]> I call it the "Continuational Theory of Temporal Anomalies"
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20:01:43 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: My theory goes that, when the proper conditions arise, a new sort of particle is created
20:01:51 <hppavilion[1]> This particle is called the "Continuation Particle"
20:02:07 <hppavilion[1]> The continuation particle drifts through the universe like any other particle
20:02:35 <hppavilion[1]> Except, when it interacts in the proper way with another particle (probably getting close enough)
20:02:47 <hppavilion[1]> The universe reverts to the moment that the continuation particle was created
20:03:06 <hppavilion[1]> And everything continues the same way, EXCEPT that the continuation particle is replaced with the particle it collided with
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20:04:46 <HackEgo> call-with-current-continuation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:04:56 <ais523> we all know what call/cc does anyway, or should
20:05:10 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, but that's the perfect opportunity for a call/cc joke
20:05:28 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Sort of like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_evaluation
20:06:04 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: this is how time travel works in Feather
20:15:07 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn lisp/(eq "lisp" (proglang-with (use-lots ["(" ")"]) (paradigm functional) (notation-type prefix)))
20:15:16 <HackEgo> (eq "lisp" (proglang-with (use-lots ["(" ")"]) (paradigm functional) (notation-type prefix)))
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20:15:38 <ais523> does proglang-with autoquote its arguments?
20:16:37 <ais523> I considered that but decided it was excessively Java
20:16:52 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: And proglang-with combines those attributes to yield a programming language
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20:18:22 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: (paradigm x) and (notation-type x) are actually semi-sugar for dictionary lookups
20:18:31 <ais523> yes but you're still writing a function that returns data values that are then used to construct an object
20:18:40 <ais523> in other words, you have a factory attribute factory
20:19:19 <ais523> I'd just have added a few apostrophes
20:19:31 <ais523> or written it as cons cells
20:19:56 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn lisp/(eq "lisp" (proglang-with '(use-lots ["(" ")"]) '(paradigm functional) '(notation-type prefix)))
20:20:35 <HackEgo> (eq "lisp" (proglang-with '(use-lots ["(" ")"]) '(paradigm functional) '(notation-type prefix)))
20:21:22 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn python := ProgrammingLanguage(plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE
20:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn python/python = ProgrammingLanguage(attrs=[plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE'], plattrs['INTERPRETED'], *plparadigms['IMPERATIVE', 'FUNCTIONAL']])
20:22:48 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn python/python = ProgrammingLanguage(attrs=[plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE'], plattrs['INTERPRETED'], *plparadigms['IMPERATIVE', 'FUNCTIONAL']])
20:22:55 <HackEgo> python = ProgrammingLanguage(attrs=[plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE'], plattrs['INTERPRETED'], *plparadigms['IMPERATIVE', 'FUNCTIONAL']])
20:23:31 <hppavilion[1]> And plparadigms[x, y] is nice because it demonstrates the use of the __getitem__ method for custom objects
20:23:48 <Taneb> oerjan, that'd make you... 45?
20:24:37 <int-e> I hate it when X11 breaks.
20:25:05 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
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20:25:27 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn_append brainfuck/bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang
20:25:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'brainfuck': brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang
20:25:34 -!- totally_heddwch has changed nick to shikhin.
20:26:47 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 20: unterminated `s' command
20:26:57 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed -i "s/mklang/mklang_arry/" wisdom/brainfuck
20:27:13 <b_jonas> well, someone did make a trivial brainfuck substitution generator once
20:27:38 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed -i "s/mklang_arry/mklang --array" wisdom/brainfuck
20:27:39 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 28: unterminated `s' command
20:27:57 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed -i "s/mklang_arry/mklang --array/" wisdom/brainfuck
20:28:06 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
20:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> Note that the `bf` command is, of course, a brainfuck interpreter
20:28:45 <hppavilion[1]> The -c flag obviously interprets its argument directly, and -t makes it return its tape
20:29:04 <shachaf> Why are you doing these things to the wisdom database?
20:29:27 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm making definitions of languages in the languages themselves
20:29:46 <oerjan> Taneb: excellent arithmetic would buy again
20:30:15 <shachaf> Maybe put those somewhere else? They don't really fit in.
20:30:15 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: brainfuck had to be *nix'd though, because it doesn't have support for the libraries that would be necessary for this
20:30:46 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well, it started with lisp, because lisp didn't have a wisdom entry
20:31:06 <HackEgo> (eq "lisp" (proglang-with '(use-lots ["(" ")"]) '(paradigm functional) '(notation-type prefix)))
20:31:26 <Taneb> oerjan, sorry for the slow response, I was having an accidental nap then getting a drink of water and otherwise not paying attention to IRC
20:31:52 <Taneb> oerjan, when is your birthday?
20:32:46 <int-e> . o O ( after christmas )
20:33:22 <oerjan> i was born on a perfect day hth
20:33:29 <ais523> oerjan: the 6th and/or 28th?
20:34:14 <oerjan> it could only go downhill from there, really.
20:34:17 <rdococ> I forgot how to list all the channels I havr egistered
20:34:44 <rdococ> wow, shachaf was born on tau day?
20:35:03 <rdococ> who's the one who was born on a perfect day?
20:35:03 <ais523> rdococ: /ns listchans is the closest I can see
20:35:14 <int-e> That may be the best argument pro tau that I've seen so far.
20:35:21 <ais523> look for channels where you have +F permission
20:35:24 <shachaf> please see the two words preceding "born on a perfect day" hth
20:35:27 <oerjan> int-e: well it doesn't work on me
20:35:50 <shachaf> oerjan: presumably you were born on 496-06-28
20:36:08 <shachaf> so all will be right again on 8128-06-28
20:36:34 <int-e> tsk, what was I thinking... Channel #realworld created Tue Dec 29 05:00:21 2009
20:37:15 <rdococ> oerjan was born on tau day omg
20:37:37 * oerjan swats rdococ again for good measure -----###
20:37:37 * rdococ slaps oerjan with a trout ><>
20:38:09 <oerjan> shachaf: maybe not _that_ perfect.
20:38:40 <rdococ> I'm testing a new bot I just made, using a terrible scripting language - you get three guesses as to what it is
20:39:03 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Maybe rdococ just has absurdly short scrollback?
20:39:28 <int-e> rdococ: php, lua, javascript, ruby... oops.
20:39:29 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: nah, I was typing as I was reading
20:39:39 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: That would mean they couldn't see "I was born on a perfect day"
20:39:52 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: but they responded to that comment
20:40:04 <rdococ> I was just reading while I typed it
20:40:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes, but they may have read it and then forgot who sent it
20:40:31 <Taneb> oerjan, I was born on a prime day
20:40:50 <rdococ> no, I didn't read the part about oerjan until it was too late
20:40:53 <oerjan> well we now have proof rdococ is not a goldfish, since goldfish have reasonably good memory hth
20:41:15 <rdococ> oerjan: what? I didn't forget anything...
20:41:20 <rdococ> int-e: nope, evener worser
20:41:24 <oerjan> rdococ: that's what you think
20:41:28 <int-e> (impossible, sadly)
20:41:36 <rdococ> int-e: so mSL is better than dc?
20:41:42 <Taneb> Conclusion: rdococ is actually a goldfish?
20:41:51 <int-e> (at least as far as I can see, dc cannot parse arbitrary input)
20:41:52 <rdococ> why would I be a goldfish?
20:42:05 <rdococ> int-e: MSL IS BETTER THAN SOMETHING?!
20:42:35 <rdococ> as I was saying, I'm testing my new murder mystery game on ##murder
20:43:15 <int-e> rdococ: to be fair, dc wasn't designed to be a scripting language
20:43:25 <rdococ> mSL wasn't either by the looks of it
20:43:34 <rdococ> it has the weirdest syntax
20:45:26 <Taneb> rdococ, use Awk instead
20:46:31 <rdococ> I hope I don't give people the wrong impression by calling my murder mystery game bot murderbot
20:46:40 <rdococ> it just got disconnected
21:09:23 <oerjan> what was the quit message
21:40:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
21:40:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
21:40:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host).
21:40:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
21:41:39 <fungot> That Pong alone cannot stop!
21:41:50 <ais523> that… is not what I was expecting
21:41:54 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
21:42:00 <fungot> (That Pong alone cannot stop!)S
21:42:09 <ais523> well, that's the obvious way to write it in fungot
21:42:09 <fungot> ais523: i have only seen the movie yet, but the result will come out first :) i am happy that you seem to prefer to use plain 32-bit rgb values
21:42:15 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
21:42:34 <ais523> hmm, 32-bit rgb, what are the other 8 bits? 2⅔ bits for each channel? alpha? gamma?
21:42:37 <b_jonas> help, fungot is making sense!
21:42:37 <fungot> b_jonas: right click and choose a simplistic implementation ( conses or vectors) you'd need 3 primitives. the word " fry" makes me nervous!!
21:43:03 <b_jonas> ais523: 8 unused values usually; or 10+12+10 bits for rgb
21:43:05 <int-e> fungot: would you prefer to be boiled?
21:43:05 <fungot> int-e: you guys ever considered the concept, whereas partial continuations refers to the same port) or just use pastebin? can i borrow it?
21:43:13 <ais523> b_jonas: why does the green get more bits?
21:43:33 <ais523> is it just because it's double 5:6:5?
21:43:35 <int-e> fungot: no, that thought had not occurred to me
21:43:36 <fungot> int-e: here's the problem with that is you need to use set-car! and set-cdr! too. i tried ( set!...
21:43:46 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:43:54 <ais523> right, that's what I thought it was
21:44:00 <ais523> fungot's irc style normally produces the best results
21:44:00 <fungot> ais523: the bash scripts in the language
21:44:26 <ais523> now I'm wondering what esoteric subsets of bash exist
21:44:30 <ais523> there's ddsh, at least
21:44:40 <ais523> which the author of CLC-INTERCAL has used as an esolang
21:44:57 <b_jonas> ais523: green matters more for the human eyes, that's why it gets more bits. but 8 bits for each of rgb and 8 unused bits is much more common
21:46:32 <ais523> b_jonas: right, this is something I discovered during the palette tests
21:46:49 <b_jonas> ais523: one esoteric subset of bash is bash without execing anything else
21:46:52 <ais523> dark greens are easier to see than dark reds or blues at a similar brightness
21:46:59 <ais523> thus darker colours are more usable with green
21:47:05 <b_jonas> people implement stuff in that sometimes, even when it doesn't make sense
21:47:13 <ais523> b_jonas: ddsh is basically that, except a) you can exec dd, and b) you can only use the subset that exists in sh
21:47:14 <b_jonas> (sometimes it can make sense, when forking and execing is slow)
21:47:28 <fizzie> It's strange, because the irc style's also one of those I trained using my own, very crude fixed-length n-gram model collector, instead of the VariKN toolkit I used for most of the rest.
21:47:31 <hppavilion[1]> I'm implementing a BF interpreter and compiler, and I want the standard getch()-style input because it's better than buffering
21:47:32 <rdococ> I swear my internet just stopped for a minute
21:47:52 <oerjan> rdococ: mine too, if you mean irc
21:47:55 <fizzie> On the other hand, it's also much larger than the other styles.
21:48:01 <oerjan> and it's the second time
21:48:02 <hppavilion[1]> But I also want it to be able to set the input to a file instead of the stdin
21:48:02 <rdococ> oerjan: no, everything else
21:48:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh, being bigger helps a lot
21:48:19 <hppavilion[1]> And if it's a file, it will work the same but read from the file
21:48:28 <rdococ> oerjan: wait, you mean it did take a whole minute for another person to say something?
21:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> But python has the stdin AS a file, so I cannot distinguish them
21:48:45 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
21:48:46 <hppavilion[1]> But I want to, because if they're- oh, I think I know nhow
21:48:52 <fizzie> That one's approximately the same size.
21:49:03 <fizzie> And I like it quite a lot, although it's pretty predictable.
21:49:03 <rdococ> internet's broken, but irc is fine?
21:49:19 <fizzie> fungot: What's your take on the migrant crisis?
21:49:20 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, mrs cerdeira morterero' s report takes the same line, which caused such an uproar and upheaval that there are many, the people who suffer distress or die, and indirectly through greater transparency, even in the european union
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21:51:38 <oerjan> rdococ: it was more that a lot came through at once.
21:52:20 <rdococ> oerjan: nah, what happened was that the game I was playing froze - I could still move or jump or stuff, but everyone was walking in place, then eventually, it disconnected
21:52:47 <oerjan> <rdococ> internet's broken, but irc is fine? <-- DNS trouble?
21:53:14 <rdococ> I'll use Window's terrible diagnosis thing
21:53:32 <oerjan> although that _shouldn't_ matter for an ongoing game unless it's badly written?
21:54:01 <oerjan> DNS should only matter if you need to make new connections
21:54:25 <rdococ> are you saying that if I disconnect from this irc server, I won't be able to reconnect?
21:54:37 <rdococ> that makes sense about something that happened a few years ago
21:54:52 <rdococ> chrome mentions the dns
21:54:54 <rdococ> "DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN"
21:54:59 <oerjan> it's happened to me before.
21:55:17 <rdococ> the game was multiplayer
21:55:24 <oerjan> if so, try setting your DNS to something wellknown like 8.8.8.8
21:55:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: retrain it with even more irc data! and train one from the lolcat bible
21:55:53 <oerjan> that's one of google's
21:56:22 <oerjan> rdococ: can you open web pages, or are you still having trouble?
21:57:15 <b_jonas> oh, is this the kind of problem where you have to hope you're not disconnected from irc because you wouldn't be able to disconnect?
21:57:28 <rdococ> reconnect*? if so, yes
21:57:30 <b_jonas> rdococ: turn off "Work offline" in the File menu
21:58:01 <rdococ> it's chrome, it has no file menu
21:59:26 <rdococ> it is that kind of problem
21:59:45 <rdococ> disconnected and tried to reconnect my bot
22:00:27 <oerjan> it's not in the browser
22:00:35 <oerjan> but i'm having trouble refinding it
22:00:51 <rdococ> no, I mean, it might have a file menu
22:01:16 <fizzie> You can try opening a site by IP to verify whether it's indeed DNS trouble. Say, navigate to http://178.62.79.47/ in Chrome.
22:02:14 <fizzie> Then the 8.8.8.8 trick is likely to work, but I can't really comment on how to set it in Windows, I'm sure they've moved the setting around in every version of it.
22:02:36 <oerjan> i found how to display what the DNS server is, but not how to set it. i'm on W10
22:02:45 <fizzie> Well, I've got a page.
22:02:45 <rdococ> tell me how to display it
22:02:50 <fizzie> "This article will advise how to change your computer's IP address and DNS servers on Windows 8. This article applies to any version of Windows 8."
22:02:55 <fizzie> It has a lot of screenshots.
22:03:12 <fizzie> Well, they're mostly blue. There's a nice picture of a daisy as a background.
22:04:11 <rdococ> come on, it shouldn't take that long, and I'm worrying
22:04:12 <fizzie> The screenshots go Control Panel -> "Network and Sharing Center" -> "Change adapter settings" -> right-click on the network -> Properties -> Internet Protocol Version 4 (TCIP/IPv4) -> Properties -> "Use the following DNS server addresses".
22:05:33 <oerjan> i didn't try to click on the Internet Protocol item
22:06:18 <fizzie> (Interestingly enough, the top hit for me for "windows 8 set dns server" -- the page I was quoting from -- was from the support site from the ISP I'm using. I wonder if that's just targeted ranking, or if they're just that good.)
22:06:22 <oerjan> so it works in Windows 10 too
22:10:31 <Taneb> Can anyone think of a stupider sounding maths word than "clopen"?
22:11:44 <coppro> not off the top of my head
22:11:48 <coppro> but I feel like I've encountered some
22:16:44 <Taneb> rdococ, it comes up in topology which has technical definitions for closed and open sets
22:16:49 <Taneb> That aren't mutually exclusive
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00:07:46 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I may have asked this before, but what strategies are used when generating brainfuck code?
00:08:42 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], you need to keep in mind your data structure is a tape, and the only loop you have is a fairly simple while loop
00:09:12 <Taneb> Design your data structure carefully and don't be afraid to change it if it isn't working
00:10:03 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: For a compiled-to-brainfuck language, would data markup be useful?
00:10:20 <Taneb> I don't know, that's not something I have any experience with
00:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, a way to tell it to set certain cells to values before initialization?
00:13:46 <rdococ> what about a looped tape?
00:14:11 <lambdabot> ‘arr’ (imported from Control.Arrow),
00:14:35 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Seems like it would trivially reduce to BF, but it's actually very different
00:14:38 <rdococ> so you can add and remove stuff in tapes?
00:14:53 <rdococ> I mean increment or decrement the value
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00:15:10 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: + pops a value and pushes its successor, - does the same with predecessor
00:15:14 <rdococ> what if the program was looped?
00:15:14 <j-bot> hppavilion[1]: and ] are the same
00:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> , and . are the same (usually, though you may want to make them different)
00:15:39 <rdococ> like what we were discussing about a prolog processor
00:16:55 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Or like this language I made which's name has slipped my mind?
00:18:30 <boily> speaking of fueue, where's mroman now?
00:19:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Do you want to design a FORTH-like language?
00:21:14 <boily> @ask mroman hello? hello? hello?
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00:21:58 <rdococ> there's one called FIFTH
00:24:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It'd be eso- by virtue of being a FORTH, and would have optional esoteric features, but it would also be quite straightforward
00:24:27 <hppavilion[1]> In theory, it'd be suitable for a wide range of applications, from hobbyist OS dev to systems programming to space flight
00:24:59 <rdococ> so it'd be stack based
00:25:24 <ais523> I recently came across a language called 8th, which is apparently a commercial FORTH with big ambitions
00:25:30 <ais523> it's unclear whether anyone actually uses it
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00:27:28 <rdococ> and it would do stuff like maths and input
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00:27:56 <b_jonas> ais523: is it trying to add some safeguards to detect stuff early (possibly at compile time), like unpaired push/pop on the main stack or wrong types?
00:28:12 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't know the details
00:28:30 <ais523> nothing in the tutorial looked different from actual Forth except that it appeared to have a type system, and I suspect one that isn't checked at any point
00:28:35 <ais523> you just have to write the types correctly
00:28:55 <b_jonas> I should add that language that tries to pretend it's forth-like to the esowiki because it probably counts as an esolang
00:29:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46743&oldid=46727 * B jonas * (+143)
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00:36:59 <rdococ> not infinity 1d stacks
00:37:13 <rdococ> you could have horizontal stack
00:38:06 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Because it matters what direction the stack grows in
00:38:06 <rdococ> but then you could change a stack's direction and make it a snake
00:38:36 <rdococ> what about a branching stack?
00:38:58 <rdococ> add (mult 3 2) (div 2 3) would branch into two branches
00:39:02 <rdococ> mult branch and div branch
00:39:08 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent_pointer_tree
00:39:16 <rdococ> but it sounds less esoteric and more useful
00:39:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: This is meant to be useful while preserving roots in esotericness
00:39:33 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=%73%70%61%67%68%65%74%74%69%20%73%74%61%63%6b' \ Alert!: Unable to access
00:39:38 <zzo38> Are there any Magic: the Gathering cards which create new state-based actions?
00:40:19 <hppavilion[1]> Because you can do things other than arithmetic, which still works in prefix, but is much more confusing
00:40:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So the instructions I'm already thinking of are:
00:40:42 <rdococ> pls give me an example
00:40:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: $ or DROP makes sense in postfix, but not as much in prefix
00:42:16 <hppavilion[1]> It seems useless, but it doesn't have to be a scalar like 4
00:42:36 <boily> int-e: int-ello. I seem to have begun binging QC. welp.
00:42:54 <hppavilion[1]> That will add 2 and 3, but not until you approve of it
00:43:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Want me to make a full list of instructions?
00:43:16 <rdococ> never thought of it that way
00:43:55 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: , gets a single character of input (a single keypress) and PUSHes its ord() onto the stack
00:44:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So , $ is a GETCH that doesn't change the stack
00:44:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But $ only drops one value; if it's an instruction that creates two new values (e.g. , ,), you need two $s
00:44:43 <rdococ> so . pops and outputs the string?
00:44:55 <rdococ> that was pushed before it
00:45:15 <rdococ> so is FORTH all like this, or does it have other things?
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00:47:29 <rdococ> hmm by the looks of it, it's all in that stack based no--hey, what about brainstack? stack based brainfuck!
00:48:04 <rdococ> I have not made a single bf derivative in my time here
00:48:18 <rdococ> mine are not that esoteric
00:48:41 <\oren\> my brainfuck interpreter uses a stack
00:49:03 <rdococ> what other paradigms are there?
00:49:13 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm
00:51:58 <boily> holy syntax highlighting batman! those are some saturated colours!
00:52:05 <rdococ> a stack based language which is a more esoteric version of forth
00:52:24 <boily> also, you use tabs. tabs are evil. four spaces!
00:52:54 <rdococ> tabs are sometimes 4 spaces, sometimes 8!
00:53:04 <rdococ> I prefer 4. 8 looks like someone stretched it into spaghetti
00:53:15 <boily> four. spaces. 0x20. four of 'em.
00:53:18 <rdococ> and 2 looks like msl aaaaaaaaaaaaaah
00:53:31 <hppavilion[1]> boily: You can tell it how wide you want your tabs to be in spaces. So tabs allow better personal preferences
00:53:52 <rdococ> Iwillusetabsfromnowontoannoyboily
00:54:17 <boily> and then you're going to tell me that braces go alone on their own lines.
00:54:32 <rdococ> braces don't need to exist
00:56:53 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, I don't really care whether tabs or spaces are used; just do whatever your dev environment spits out when you hit newline
00:58:15 <zzo38> When I push newline it results in newline!
00:58:44 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: How would one typecheck an imperative stack-based language? Row polymorphism doesn't seem like it would help unless the language is functional.
00:59:09 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That will be a feature, but not the core of the langauge
00:59:32 <zzo38> (However, I generally use two spaces for indent, and put the brace on the same line as if/function/while/whatever.)
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01:00:15 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I will accept your "four spaces" theology if you're willing to use as your space
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01:00:29 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you seem to have accidentaly a word.
01:01:41 <HackEgo> [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S]
01:01:46 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: declarative FORTH
01:02:25 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: FORTH is good because it's fast and works well with the low-level system, which does /not/ go well declarative languages
01:02:34 <rdococ> declarative prologassembly?
01:02:51 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Granted, if you can make a schema for a low-level language that works well on bare metal, I will concede
01:03:20 <rdococ> basically, the prolog processor would take data, then apply all the substitution rules in a loop
01:03:34 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It has to work well on arbitrary, typical processors
01:03:53 <zzo38> I think Forth is probably good for including in ROM BIOS (some old computers include BASIC), and can also be used as the built-in programming environment of a system that doesn't otherwise have one it can work good too
01:04:02 <rdococ> you mean a language, not the processor we were gonna design
01:05:04 <rdococ> declarative languages still have some form of order to them, just not top to bottom
01:05:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But if you can find a way to (abstractly) make a declarative language that works well on bare metal, I will concede and help you design implement the rest of it
01:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Church encoding is best to avoid in actual computing
01:05:51 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Practically speaking, using church encoding is horribly inefficient. It's much better to just let the language access the actual computer.
01:05:53 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: church numerals would be really slow, wouldn't support fractions
01:06:10 <rdococ> it can, but it'd still be slow
01:07:53 <rdococ> every instruction is bound to have a side effect when it's machine code
01:08:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86#Basic_properties_of_the_architecture
01:08:46 <hppavilion[1]> x64 is the 64-bit variant of x86, which is 32-bit (originally 16-bit)
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01:11:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You are correct that at ASM levels, all instructions tend to have side effects. This is why you should start with a robust framework for allowing side effects in your BMDL (bare-metal declarative language. Feel free to rename it now)
01:11:58 <hppavilion[1]> I would recommend naming it after a bird of prey for now, or a mythical creature
01:12:12 <rdococ> both bird and mythical
01:13:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So what kind of language do you want this to be? Most declarative languages are functional, logical, or functional-logic (which is the one I know the least about, despite being literally just functional+logic)
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01:14:24 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You might want to choose to do something marginally declarative to start, like using FSMs for CF
01:14:49 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's going to be a MASSIVE pain to pull off, as most low-level architectures don't do strings very well
01:15:01 <rdococ> well, apply that string substitution idea
01:15:17 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Consider that a string will almost always change length when substituted
01:16:37 <rdococ> so it has to be easily convertible into machine code, and yet a non-imperative flow
01:17:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I would just choose Logic or Functional. Functional is better understood by most people (including me), so I'd stick with that.
01:17:45 <rdococ> which one would be easier to pull off in a low level language?
01:18:48 <rdococ> "functional programming uses functions while logic programming uses predicates. A predicate is not a function; it does not have a return value. Depending on the value of it's arguments it may be true or false; if some values are undefined it will try to find the values that would make the predicate true."
01:19:00 <rdococ> I guess functional is the way to go then
01:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I seem to have forgotten, what are we trying to do? xD
01:22:34 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: We're making a bare-metal declarative language, aren't we
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01:24:15 <rdococ> all of the memory in a Pheonix program would be local to their "functions"
01:24:37 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So we want this to be the kind of thing you might write an OS with?
01:24:40 <rdococ> all memory is cleared when you enter a goto?
01:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Functional languages generally don't /have/ gotos
01:24:57 <Taneb> For any graph does there exist a topology in which it is planar?
01:25:08 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: They have call/cc sometimes, but that's as close as it gets
01:25:27 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], counterpoint: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/GotoT-transformers-1.0.0.1/docs/Control-Monad-Trans-Goto.html
01:25:29 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: but they have functions which don't fit a low level language, so goto is the closest we'll get
01:25:51 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Do we want the language to directly manipulate memory?
01:26:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: e.g. should it be like a declarative ASM, or more like a declarative C?
01:27:25 <rdococ> should we define "declarative" as a different kind of control flow, or as no side effects?
01:27:50 <rdococ> that's bound to be impossible if we want to keep it low level
01:27:56 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: "Declarative" is really just "not imperative"
01:28:02 <rdococ> we could do declarative with side effects
01:28:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's not "No side effects" so much as "side effects are done in a way that makes it fit certain properties"
01:29:43 <rdococ> basically, Pheonix would be an ASM-like language with a declarative control flow.
01:29:56 <rdococ> instead of going top to bottom with gotos and a loop
01:31:55 <rdococ> the way I see it, functional is just no memory
01:32:32 <rdococ> what would a node look like? one line? or like a subroutine but different
01:33:04 <hppavilion[1]> Along with various functionalized ASM instructions
01:33:25 <rdococ> they'd be able to return values to their caller, right?
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01:35:01 <boily> hppavilion[1]: Zucchini.
01:35:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But they'd only be able to return 64-bit integers
01:35:20 <rdococ> so f(g(3, h())) would activate node f, which would activate g, which would activate h, which would return...
01:35:40 <rdococ> but of course it would be ASMized
01:36:11 <rdococ> nodes would have access to some operations, like addition
01:37:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, but they are limited to side effect-reduced instructions
01:37:19 <rdococ> and they wouldn't have as much side effects
01:37:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So things like MOV are handled by the compiler, rather than by the programmer
01:37:42 <rdococ> even though it's an ASM like language
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01:38:06 <rdococ> it hardly sounds like assembly :/
01:38:33 <rdococ> also, i/o is important
01:39:43 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, I/O would be handled by special nodes I think
01:40:37 <rdococ> so this is like little ASM programs that activate other little program nodes or return to their caller
01:40:51 <rdococ> wait, can a node activate other nodes and return at the same time?
01:41:03 <rdococ> or return after activating other nodes
01:41:17 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: (a) It is like that (b) It can't activate other nodes while returning
01:41:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: "Activate" was poor word choice on my part
01:41:44 <rdococ> that's how I imagined it
01:41:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Let's translate http://wiki.osdev.org/Bare_bones into a mockup in this language
01:42:32 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Do you know of any online collaborative compilers?
01:42:46 <rdococ> output is usually where most functional languages can't avoid side effects
01:42:49 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You call a special node with desired output
01:43:01 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Input is where the issues lie; output is just fine
01:43:29 <rdococ> I guess the only "memory" this would have is which node is activated
01:43:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So to print "A", you'd do something like `out(65)' with
01:44:13 <rdococ> one issue is that if you need to use input for more than one thing - like 3 + (x - (5 + 2x))
01:44:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Everything memorial is dealt with by the compiler
01:44:32 * boily is singing mrs. robinson ♪
01:44:50 <rdococ> but how would you tell the compiler that we need a previous input?
01:45:11 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I would have something like a "one-shot input function"
01:45:26 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It gets input the first time it's called, and on all subsequent calls it returns that value
01:45:58 <rdococ> but then how do you get another input?
01:46:05 <rdococ> would you be able to call things with values?
01:46:18 <rdococ> e.g. pass arguments like f(3, g(2))
01:47:39 <rdococ> that editor is terrible, I can't even chat properly
01:47:53 <rdococ> just remembered titanpad
01:48:38 <rdococ> no sign up, instantly start typing
01:49:02 <rdococ> https://titanpad.com/fHMbT3YH5G
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02:08:26 <rdococ> connection keeps cutting off
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02:30:57 <zzo38> The documentation of new version of SmileBASIC does not mention any QR codes, but it does seem it may be possible to store a program on a tape.
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02:54:18 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0mXCnzisV4
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02:59:08 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I'm designing an IL/Processor and trying to figure out what I'm missing...
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03:13:40 <zzo38> What do you have so far?
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03:26:08 <zzo38> What do you have so far?
03:29:34 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of want to adapt the processor into a full emulated computer...
03:31:29 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: For the processor, I have registers, a memory model, and a collection of instructions
03:33:09 <zzo38> Does it use any special registers?
03:34:11 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Special registers as in things like an accumulator?
03:34:46 <zzo38> What do those registers do?
03:34:58 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: ACC is where all arithmetic operations are done
03:35:32 <hppavilion[1]> And CDE and ARG are for syscalls or whatever. For messing with BIOS or something.
03:35:59 <zzo38> I don't know what is Mill CPU?
03:37:00 <zzo38> I found some information of Mill CPU on Wikipedia
03:40:09 <shachaf> zzo38: You can find some more information at millcomputing.com
03:40:35 <shachaf> zzo38: It's a CPU architecture with all sorts of exciting features. You should watch the talks on the website, if you do video.
03:41:43 <zzo38> I like some of the ideas
03:52:52 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x0363 0x036f | sed s/../ &/g
03:52:55 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 5: unterminated `s' command \ /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /g: No such file or directory
03:53:03 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x0363 0x036f | sed 's/../ &/g'
03:53:12 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x0363 0x036f | sed 's/./ &/g'
03:53:15 <HackEgo> ͣ ͤ ͥ ͦ ͧ ͨ ͩ ͪ ͫ ͬ ͭ ͮ ͯ
03:56:11 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x10900 0x10915
03:56:12 <HackEgo> 𐤀𐤁𐤂𐤃𐤄𐤅𐤆𐤇𐤈𐤉𐤊𐤋𐤌𐤍𐤎𐤏 \ 𐤐𐤑𐤒𐤓𐤔𐤕
03:57:23 <\oren\> why won't my phoenician show up
03:57:49 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x10900 0x10915
03:57:50 <HackEgo> 𐤀𐤁𐤂𐤃𐤄𐤅𐤆𐤇𐤈𐤉𐤊𐤋𐤌𐤍𐤎𐤏 \ 𐤐𐤑𐤒𐤓𐤔𐤕
03:58:45 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x1d434 0x1d467
03:58:47 <HackEgo> 𝐴𝐵𝐶𝐷𝐸𝐹𝐺𝐻𝐼𝐽𝐾𝐿 \ 𝑀𝑁𝑂𝑃𝑄𝑅𝑆𝑇𝑈𝑉𝑊𝑋𝑌𝑍𝑎𝑏 \ 𝑐𝑑𝑒𝑓𝑔𝑖𝑗𝑘𝑙𝑚𝑛𝑜𝑝𝑞𝑟 \ 𝑠𝑡𝑢𝑣𝑤𝑥𝑦𝑧
03:59:06 <ais523> huh, my client can render all of those apart from the lowercase h
03:59:30 <\oren\> the h is a noncharacter
04:00:12 <\oren\> it is filled by the ℎ in letterlike symbols
04:02:48 <HackEgo> ⴀⴁⴂⴃⴄⴅⴆⴇⴈⴉⴊⴋⴌⴍⴎⴏ \ ⴐⴑⴒⴓⴔⴕⴖⴗⴘⴙⴚⴛⴜⴝⴞⴟ \ ⴠⴡⴢⴣⴤⴥ
04:07:56 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/u8tbl: line 1: 293 Segmentation fault u8tbl.exe $@
04:12:53 <\oren\> ok so some characters need fixing...
04:23:44 <\oren\> oh I see why phoenician doesnt work!
04:27:20 <\oren\> and irssi desn't know that it exists
04:28:16 <\oren\> whatever, i added 𐤀𐤁𐤂𐤃𐤄𐤅𐤆𐤇𐤈𐤉𐤊𐤋𐤌𐤍𐤎𐤏𐤐𐤑𐤒𐤓𐤔𐤕 to the font demo anyway
04:28:54 <HackEgo> [U+10900 PHOENICIAN LETTER ALF] [U+10901 PHOENICIAN LETTER BET] [U+10902 PHOENICIAN LETTER GAML] [U+10903 PHOENICIAN LETTER DELT]
04:30:23 <\oren\> Hackygo knows phoenician
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04:36:03 <hppavilion[1]> (with (both (* 1000 lie) good-disguise) (hit him (between (get-attr him eyes))))
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05:31:06 <hppavilion[1]> In the process, I invented a simple program that allows me to generate memory files with a simple hex-based syntax
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05:51:03 <zgrep> The esobell shakes a bit, then sends out three notes of silence.
06:09:27 <hppavilion[1]> I've only implemented MOV, SWP, and NOP so far, but it's getting there
06:09:51 <zgrep> But those instructions are far too normal. :P
06:10:06 <zgrep> They're already too normal. :P
06:10:13 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Also, this is more a target platform than an esolang
06:10:25 <zgrep> People don't want to be able to *use* things, not really. :P
06:17:11 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: One of my goals is to make a low-level functional language that compiles to it, thus allowing me to make the OS partially in something like Haskell
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08:55:26 <zzo38> An alternative XML representation for RDF could be made up in order to make it easier to use with XSLT, since the standard RDF/XML isn't suitable for this purpose.
09:03:56 <zzo38> (There otherwise probably isn't much point in using XML)
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09:49:04 <int-e> clog is there though
09:49:25 <int-e> (good *yawn* morning)
09:49:43 <oerjan> yes, but it's so much less readable to my eyes
09:51:20 <shachaf> you can postprocess the logs hth
09:51:36 <shachaf> i think postprocessing is just called processing
09:52:25 <shachaf> does glog stand for gregor log
09:52:40 <oerjan> :%s/\(.\{85\}\) /\1^M /
09:52:52 <oerjan> just do that enough times, and i get wrapping
09:53:06 <oerjan> shachaf: quite possible
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10:08:59 <zzo38> You can use the "fmt" program to implement word wrapping
10:15:26 <oerjan> also, i don't see fmt supporting my need to have the continuation lines be indented more
10:15:49 <oerjan> (otherwise it's even more unreadable than unformatted)
10:26:06 <oerjan> `le/rn spaghetti stack/A spaghetti stack is the most edible data structure.
10:27:19 <shachaf> A spaghetti stack is what a Haskell programmer would call a linked list, right?
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10:41:14 <oerjan> @tell rdococ It's spelled "Phoenix" hth
10:43:24 <oerjan> <Taneb> For any graph does there exist a topology in which it is planar? <-- wat. "planar" means in the plane, no other topology allowed hth
10:44:26 <oerjan> @tell Taneb Not every graph can be embedded in the plane. Every (finite) graph can be embedded in R^3.
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11:30:29 <int-e> oerjan: oooh, does it still work when the graph has the same cardinality as R? (assuming the axiom of choice... I suppose it does but it's a bit tricky to argue about it.
11:31:48 <oerjan> int-e: hm i vaguely think i saw a trick where you use two planes and straight lines between them
11:32:09 <oerjan> and with a bit of care the lines never cross outside the planes
11:32:27 <oerjan> (one plane for edges and one for nodes, i guess)
11:32:49 <oerjan> might not even need AoC
11:32:51 <int-e> oh, I realize I was hoping to use straight lines for the edges
11:34:39 <oerjan> hm you just need a line for the nodes, maybe.
11:35:40 <oerjan> then an edge from not x to node y consists of a line from (0,0,x) to (x,y,0) and a line from (x,y,0) to (0,0,y). or something like that.
11:41:11 <oerjan> int-e: oh. don't about a single straight line per edge.
11:43:25 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_embedding#Embeddings_of_graphs_into_higher-dimensional_spaces has a method.
11:43:29 <int-e> ah, you can just put the nodes on the curve (x,x^2,x^3).
11:46:18 <int-e> damn what is this kind of matrix called again... [1,x,x^2;1,y,y^2;1,z,z^2]
11:47:26 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandermonde_matrix
11:47:42 <int-e> (found it via polynomial interpolation)
11:48:20 <int-e> anyway, the 4-D case shows that no 4 distinct points of (x,x^2,x^3) lie in a plane... this generalizes to arbitrary dimensions.
11:49:51 <oerjan> that doesn't quite imply no intersections.
11:49:56 <int-e> (hmm, there's some projective geometry element in there. nice.)
11:50:53 <oerjan> bah of course it does.
11:52:15 <int-e> in projective coordinates, (x^3,x^2,x,1), (y^3,y^2,y,1), (z^3,z^2,z,1), (t^3,t^2,t,1) lie in the same plane if they are linearly dependent... but the determinant is (x-y)(x-z)(x-t)(y-z)(y-t)(z-t), which is only 0 if two of the points are the same.
11:52:29 <int-e> (modulo sign of the determinant... I didn't check that)
11:53:20 <b_jonas> I just had the stupidest idea for an M:tG card ever.
11:53:37 <zzo38> I have written some program dealing with farbfeld and one thing is that the command "ff-gradient 100 100 r FF0000 DDDDDD 0000FF | ff-paeth e | ff-bright a 1 | ffpng > /var/www/img_19/example1.png" results in this picture: http://zzo38computer.org/img_19/example1.png
11:53:43 <zzo38> b_jonas: What idea is it?
11:56:41 <b_jonas> It's a split card. Slough | G | Sorcery | You may put a Swamp from your hand onto the battlefield tapped. || Slough | G | Sorcery | Tap target Snake. It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
11:58:47 <zzo38> I would think that each half should have a different name?
11:59:02 <zzo38> (Although a similar effect could also be made as a modal spell)
12:01:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's part of why it's stupid. Runed Halo needs you to be able to name half of a split card.
12:03:33 <b_jonas> I guess a modal spell could work. So that would be. Slough | G | Sorcery | Choose one. / - You may put a Swamp from your hand onto the battlefield tapped. / - Tap target Snake. It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
12:06:25 <zzo38> Runed Halo would still work though even if both half have the same name; it give you protection from both (although your card does not target, damage, or become attached to players; also it seem to me that half of split card are supposed to have two different names anyways)
12:06:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: how does Conjurer's Ban work?
12:07:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: or Pithing Needle ... although an activated ability would hardly fit on half of a split card
12:09:04 <zzo38> While on the stack it only has one name; in all other zones the split card has two names, is I think how it is working.
12:11:44 <b_jonas> Hmm, actually, looking at existing split cards, I think you could fit a sorcery ability and an activated channel or forecast or cycling ability on a split card. Channel would be a bad match for other reasons, but forecast or cycling could go into a fuse bar.
12:12:14 <b_jonas> Although that would require a two line high fuse bar.
12:12:35 <b_jonas> Well, forecast would. Cycle would fit in one line.
12:12:56 <zzo38> (So if it is a permanent card (although no existing split cards are), then regardless of which half is cast, it is both while in play.)
12:13:26 <b_jonas> Um, permanent cards don't get to be split cards, they get to be primal clay instead, which is even more confusing.
12:14:16 <b_jonas> Just like split cards and morph cards and flip cards and double-sided cards, primal clay cards have their *copiable* characteristics changing.
12:14:41 <b_jonas> And it's not just one very old card (Primal Clay), they printed another one recently
12:16:05 <b_jonas> Oh, and they reprinted the actual Primal Clay in M13
12:16:27 <b_jonas> Making it a split card or flip card would have been less confusing.
12:17:05 <b_jonas> No wait, Primal Clay has three modes. Then you're screwed anyway, it can't be represented as a split or flip card.
12:21:00 <zzo38> Primal Clay function in battlefield
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12:36:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: and split cards on the stack.
12:37:09 <b_jonas> but they basically do the same thing: multiple sets of characteristics, one of which is active in that zone.
12:37:37 <b_jonas> flip and transform and morph also do that, only those change within that battlefield without becoming a new object (but possibly gaining a new timestamp)
12:46:20 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 1m 54s ago: Not every graph can be embedded in the plane. Every (finite) graph can be embedded in R^3.
12:46:40 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, I think I was asking the wrong question
12:46:42 <oerjan> Taneb: see discussion above
12:47:47 <oerjan> Taneb: i can think of one alternative interpretation, although that one's also pretty trivial (make tubes)
12:48:02 <Taneb> I think that was what I meant
12:49:49 <oerjan> you can put some graphs on the torus that aren't planar, was that what you were thinking of?
12:50:08 <oerjan> but if you just glue more tubes on, you can embed any graph.
12:53:44 <oerjan> eek is xkcd having one of those big explorable ones again
12:57:23 <oerjan> am i suppose to watch the plants grow, or what.
12:59:03 * int-e finally reads oerjan's link on graph embedding and learns about the "moment curve" name.
13:03:14 <oerjan> oh. i'd somehow missed that it listed the same thing you did.
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13:05:53 <oerjan> (the answer to the plant question is apparently yes.)
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13:09:07 <oerjan> oh something faster growing
13:09:09 <fizzie> On my phone there was just a tree (or something; forgot already) repeatedly flipping (horizontally); on this workstation there's nothing.
13:09:14 <b_jonas> oerjan: is taht still the april fools one?
13:09:32 <oerjan> b_jonas: i have no idea. but there are plants growing.
13:09:45 <oerjan> up to three trees now, one pretty large
13:10:17 <oerjan> i never saw anything other than excuses for being broken
13:10:44 <oerjan> fizzie: it starts very slowly. also you should add more lights.
13:11:02 * oerjan went to explainxkcd, although that's about all it said.
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13:11:47 <oerjan> (and they never mentioned anything about april fool)
13:12:09 <oerjan> you can also adjust direction and color.
13:12:51 <oerjan> i don't see any flipping btw, just general waving in the wind
13:13:00 <oerjan> (and sudden spurts of growth)
13:13:48 <oerjan> sometimes _really_ sudden. the entire trunks seem to happen instantly
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13:22:36 <oerjan> wait what, it seems to have reset while i was browsing elsewhere.
13:44:04 <fizzie> oerjan: By "nothing", I mean the top navigation bar is immediately adjacent to the bottom navigation bar.
13:45:43 <fizzie> The flipping seems to have been a "loading" screen that got stuck; on my phone it now shows up briefly, before showing what I think is what you're talking about. (At least there's a bit of ground and a lamp.)
13:45:52 <fizzie> (On the desktop there's still nothing.)
13:47:10 <oerjan> getting the readers to watch grass grow certainly seems like an april fools joke.
13:47:36 <fizzie> Better than watching paint dry.
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13:47:40 <oerjan> especially when it's buggy.
13:48:47 <zgrep> fizzie: Depends on the paint.
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14:26:35 <int-e> hmm, my garden is growing aninmals. a man, a turtle, a doe?
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16:48:57 <lynn> `? continuous chess
16:49:25 <HackEgo> continuous chess? ¯\(°_o)/¯
16:49:40 <lynn> Where are the rules for that? It was so good
16:55:21 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
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17:45:02 <int-e> It's a good wisdom, a nice mix of facts and fiction.
17:45:44 <HackEgo> agdq/AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever winter, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
17:45:54 <HackEgo> catamorphism/A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep.
17:46:09 <int-e> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2013-08-27.txt has some more information about chess
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18:42:01 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You load os.mem and it starts executing from location 0xF0000
18:42:34 <hppavilion[1]> (os.mem is a binary file holding the bytes of non-volatile memory for Gryphon)
18:43:52 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: And no memory protection, though that might be a thing the OS does (I'm not sure how that works)
18:44:02 <hppavilion[1]> So you can write self-modifying code if you're feeling diabolical
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18:45:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I'm still trying to figure out how IO is accomplished. I can't take advantage of anything the host OS has, so I'm thinking pixel drawing
18:45:26 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No, it's been done before, and it's objectively evil
18:45:52 <rdococ> how is self modifying code objectively evil?
18:47:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Because you can't read it before compiling without deep thought
18:48:08 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: If the code changes at runtime, then (A) You can't be sure if what you're reading is everything and (B) Compilation becomes a LOT more difficult, because things might change that you weren't expecting
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19:03:00 <zzo38> Self-modifying code is OK, although it depend on the instruction set and programming language in use; in some cases it is bad or impossible. However in many cases it can probably be avoided (especially should be if the program is stored in ROM)
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19:11:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: or when the cpu is modern enough that modifying instructions will cause lots of cache and instruction decoding penalties, and/or require a jump or even special insn cache flush instructions to make sure the cpu notices, or when the computer is multi-tasked so the same mapped executable is ran by multiple processes or threads running concurrently.
19:12:34 <b_jonas> The 6502 required self-modifying code, but at that time you didn't have reasons to avoid it. Now we do have very good reasons to avoid self-modifying code, but luckily the x86 doesn't require you to use it.
19:12:40 <zzo38> In the first case, I consider that to be a bad design. In the last case, the executable should have a flag somewhere to indicate if it needs to be mapped separately or not.
19:13:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: they do have a flag. they tell that the executable section is mapped read-only.
19:14:19 <zzo38> OK, so, normally it should map read-only and shareable, then.
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19:18:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's probably a shareable flag too, not only access control flags
19:19:01 <b_jonas> that's how mmap works, I don't know how ELF works with executables and dynamic libraries
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20:17:18 <zzo38> Currently the wide banks of UTCE are all Japanese, although possibly one or two wide banks could be allocated for astrology if there is room.
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20:24:25 <zzo38> (Maybe you have a better idea though)
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20:56:23 <HackEgo> AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever winter, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
20:56:46 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/ever/every/' wisdom/agdq
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21:03:43 <oerjan> the moderators at the yafgc forum aren't the most prompt at deleting spam. although they do get to it eventually.
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21:10:43 <rdococ> I am not present. I am rdococ.
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21:21:24 <rdococ> I am rdococ, not present
21:23:15 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I'm making a language called Archae, which is an anti-tarpit with no documentation.
21:23:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You can access it only via the internet, and the goal is to figure out how it works
21:25:17 <hppavilion[1]> (Are there dual combinators? Like k = λxy.x, so ʞ = ʞx.xy
21:27:22 <shachaf> how about duel combinators
21:27:34 <shachaf> core war for lambda calculus
21:27:35 <hppavilion[1]> (It doesn't make much sense for k, as where does the y come from for ʞ, but for s it makes a bit more sense- ~Sxz(yz) = xyz)
21:30:38 <rdococ> but it doesn't make a sound
21:30:43 <rdococ> unless it mentions my name
21:30:59 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So answer? Do you want to help design Archae?
21:31:25 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: We can design it on a normal temp channel so that it will alert you
21:34:57 <rdococ> so should it be easy to code or hard to code?
21:35:33 <int-e> it should overwhelm you with possibilities so it's impossible to know where to begin
21:36:07 <rdococ> so take Lua, make a billion massive libraries, done
21:36:16 <rdococ> or virtually any other language
21:36:52 <rdococ> so how many characters can we use?
21:37:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Any unicode character is up for grabs, though we should avoid CJK
21:37:36 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Basically, the Unicode that is relevant to English speakers
21:38:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Most english speakers can't tell the difference between CJK characters at a glance, so we won't be using much of those
21:38:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I think we should use a temp channel so that it won't be spoiled for anyone else on this channel
21:40:16 <Taneb> How do you handle the feeling of hopelessness when the easiest bit of a module you have an exam for in 11 days seems so hard
21:40:38 <rdococ> by saying your dog ate it
21:40:51 <Taneb> I'm afraid it's a linear optimization and game theory module
21:41:21 <shachaf> differential operators are linear
21:41:26 <shachaf> so it's basically the same thing
21:42:33 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
21:42:56 <shachaf> Taneb: what sort of things are linear optimization and game theory about
21:43:10 <Taneb> Game theory, and also linear optimization
21:43:37 <shachaf> i don't know much about those topics
21:44:47 <oerjan> linear optimization isn't hard, it's very simplex
21:46:28 <Taneb> Unfortunately, the bit I'm struggling with is the background of what non-linear optimization looks like
21:46:35 <Taneb> With lagrangian mutlipliers and what have you
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22:36:40 <int-e> I just LOVE helpful error messages. "libdvdread: Can't open /dev/dvd for reading" ... well, turns out it was trying /dev/rdvd ... thanks!
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22:42:49 <rdococ> how did it get them mixed up
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23:10:32 <HackEgo> mips/MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
23:11:21 <HackEgo> category-helpdesk/category-helpdesk is a helpdesk with identity and composition. This channel isn't it.
23:11:37 <shachaf> `` culprits wisdom/category-helpdesk
23:11:47 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull boily
23:12:02 <rdococ> pm functionality isn't working?
23:17:25 <boily> I created that one?
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23:40:25 <boily> rdhelloc it'll be from now, it is.
23:43:15 <boily> fungot: have you ever porthelloed someone?
23:43:16 <fungot> boily: mr president, commissioner, i would like to refer to mrs wallis' point regarding quite a lot of european industries happy. i regard this as being a provisional situation and a step backwards in terms of social security systems or, properly speaking, pension schemes. i share the honourable members are perfectly aware, that will continue to be strong with the weak and weak with the strong, which enables us to achieve a bet
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23:46:19 <hppavilion[1]> Here's something I started thinking of that's probably been done before
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23:46:45 <hppavilion[1]> Reduction is the process of turning something into something simpler
23:47:32 <hppavilion[1]> An automaton is said to be more complex than another automaton under a system if evaluating the the former produces the latter, but reducing the latter never produces the former
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23:49:03 <hppavilion[1]> Reduction Machines is just a fancy way of saying "this generalization of cellular automata I'm making up"
23:49:07 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Does this sound like something you've heard of?
23:49:41 <hppavilion[1]> The generalization defines things like static neighborhoods vs. static-individualized neighborhoods vs. dynamic neighborhoods
23:49:46 <boily> vaguely like lambda calculus' eta reduction, but otherwise nope. my mind's a 0x20.
23:50:49 <hppavilion[1]> A reduction machine is cellular if its neighborhood is static or static-individualized. Dynamic-neighborhood automata cannot be cellular.
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23:52:40 <hppavilion[1]> (A machine has a static neighborhood if all of its states have the same neighborhood that remains constant at all points in time, a static-individualized neighborhood if the states have different neighborhoods, but they all remain constant, and a dynamic neighborhood if part of a reduction step involves changing the neighborhood of the current cell)
23:53:20 <hppavilion[1]> So Conway's Game of Life where each individual cell is a node on a graph and that node can connect to other nodes if certain conditions arise has a dynamic neighborhood
23:54:10 <hppavilion[1]> boily: It's probably related to eta reduction by virtue of being Turing-complete. Also, it was originally inspired by a functional programming language I was designing, so...
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00:05:08 <boily> damned washing machine. end soon! I want my poutine!
00:30:25 <boily> POTATO DESECRATION!
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00:33:42 <\oren\> wait, unicode is allowed in qit messages
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00:39:54 <\oren\> the xkcd isn't showing up for me btw
00:40:57 <\oren\> does it not work in firefox
00:43:23 <FreeFull> \oren\: Yeah, I just have nothing where it's supposed to be, between the navigation bars
00:43:42 <FreeFull> \oren\: Seems to work in chromium
00:43:48 <\oren\> oh it's http: it doesn't work in https:
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01:18:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46744&oldid=41867 * Ds84182 * (+994) Update Xihcute Instruction specs to my latest local version. Some examples will have to be rewritten.
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01:34:15 <hppavilion[1]> I have a renderer for my functional language working!
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01:43:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46745&oldid=46744 * Ds84182 * (-753)
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02:13:18 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: I would show you a program, but I'm going to have to program in all the vector graphics for everything first xD
02:14:14 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: The graphics are just a frontend representation
02:14:28 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: The real thing is a much-less-entertaining JSON format
02:14:47 <hppavilion[1]> That you're not supposed to mess with, because there'll be a front-end editor to do that for you
02:17:54 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: A program is based on shuffling integers around through nodes
02:18:17 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: In other news, I thought of something called a "Reduction Machine", which is a generalization of cellular automata
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02:27:03 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: One of the interesting things about this is that it's not so much functional as it is superfunctional
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04:33:24 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
04:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'm kind of tempted to add that to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module_%28mathematics%29
05:10:56 <constant> is there any existing language that uses unicode homoglyphs
05:11:27 <constant> i.e. & and ＆ for binary vs logical and?
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07:15:50 <hppavilion[1]> A CISC that uses acronyms for real things as its ASM opcode names
07:16:13 <hppavilion[1]> And the behavior of commands humorously corresponds to the behavior of that thing
07:18:00 <hppavilion[1]> USSR 5, 6 can be read "In Soviet Russia, 5 is 6!!!!"
07:20:55 <zgrep> Argh. My brain doesn't want to let me work on things I need to do, thanks to #ircpuzzles. :(
07:31:11 <zgrep> Or, rather... EAOAIGORN
07:31:31 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Short ones that we can make fun of the owner of
07:31:33 <zgrep> Extreme Abuse Of Acronyms Is Going On Right Now
07:31:47 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: NSA allows you to read memory that does not belong to this program
07:32:01 <zgrep> CIA should let you kill any process you want...
07:33:47 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: DOD consumes massive amounts of resources for no good reason
07:33:49 <zgrep> FBI tells you whether or not a program is running, and how it's going to eventually arrest it if it is
07:35:42 <zgrep> NYSE -> Crashes the computer from time to time.
07:35:55 <zgrep> If you run it, it *might* crash the computer.
07:36:16 <zgrep> New York Stock Exchange
07:37:21 <zgrep> USD -> call it enough times and you can't call any other instructions unless you wait for a little bit
07:37:59 <zgrep> Well, I'm going to do stuff that I have to do now. :(
07:48:02 <b_jonas> Did Randall just skimp off a comic? He's posted the April's Fool comic on Monday morning, and didn't post anything on Monday evening
07:49:42 <b_jonas> This is very unusual. He's posted at least fillers every time so far I think.
07:50:08 <b_jonas> although I haven't checked
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08:57:14 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Yeppers.
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11:33:33 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> damned washing machine. end soon! I want my poutine! <-- i recommend not putting poutine in your washing machine hth
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11:36:01 <oerjan> going around, tempting people for poutine
11:40:46 <boily> I was spoken of at?
11:40:52 <boily> hellørjan, int-ello.
11:40:58 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7m 25s ago: <boily> damned washing machine. end soon! I want my poutine! <-- i recommend not putting poutine in your washing machine hth
11:41:25 <boily> I didn't even get poutine yesterday. I was tempted by pizza.
11:47:53 <boily> there were interesting videos yesterday night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGmHNVUn07c
11:54:52 <oerjan> boily: the end times. clearly.
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12:09:31 <Taneb> I still need to find a place in York and/or Hexham where I can try poutine
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12:12:25 <boily> are there any Québécois expats in the UK?
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14:32:51 <int-e> hmm, xkcd... I wonder whether there's a special case for putting a tortoise on top of a cactus
14:34:03 <int-e> left it over night and pruned a bit: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cactus.png
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18:07:15 <Taneb> I need to be careful about which window is in focus when I apply a keyboard shortcut
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18:23:11 <myname> it was in futurama once
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18:30:09 <myname> > let x = [1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0] in x == reverse $ map (1-) x
18:30:11 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[Integer] -> t’
18:30:11 <lambdabot> The first argument of ($) takes one argument,
18:30:31 <myname> > let x = [1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0] in x == reverse (map (1-) x)
18:31:30 <myname> hppavilion[1]: lambdabot doesn't lie
18:32:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I want to make a ρ-calcular functional language
18:32:59 <hppavilion[1]> myname: The wiki suggests it, but I don't know of any having actually been made
18:38:33 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Would only supporting doubles be a bad idea?
18:39:25 <myname> with tuples you can basically do everything
18:41:06 <myname> i am not sure what your problem is
18:42:14 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], you lose canonical n-tuples
18:42:40 <Taneb> (a, b, c, d) = (((a, b), c), d) = ((a, b), (c, d)) = (a, (b, (c, d)))
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18:43:08 <Taneb> Don't know if it's a good one or not
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18:45:54 <hppavilion[1]> myname: You can emulate them, but it's a pain for large tuples
18:46:29 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any other significant models for functional programming besides the λ and ρ calculi?
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18:51:13 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Do you know of any models other than the λ and ρ calculi?
18:51:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking about throwing production rules in too
18:52:16 <lambda-11235> I didn't even know about ρ calculi before you mentioned it.
18:52:19 <oerjan> pretty sure there's a pi calculus (concurrent)
18:52:34 <myname> how is S -> PQ different than \s.pq?
18:53:03 <oerjan> iirc there's also a gamma calculus inspired by chemistry / biology
18:54:08 <oerjan> it may have been just in some papers
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18:54:38 <oerjan> no idea, but pi may be close
18:55:28 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Are there any functional languages based groups or rings or anything? Does that make any sense at all?
18:56:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: perhaps you can count APL and J as such
18:56:16 <oerjan> they're based on arrays in a uniform way
18:56:43 <oerjan> and K. not that i know any of them enough to know the differences
18:57:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that term reminds me of the soviet language REFAL
18:57:24 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: There's that calculus they're working on for Scala, called DOT calculus.
18:57:56 <myname> hppavilion[1]: where the hell do you get all your ideas from
18:58:20 <hppavilion[1]> myname: The big pool o' ideas. Where do YOU get your ideas from?
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18:59:25 <hppavilion[1]> So I think functional-grammar would allow you to formulate production rules and entire grammars at once...
18:59:57 <hppavilion[1]> Is it possible to efficiently "invert" an arbitrary grammar to produce a string in that grammar, given certain parameters?
19:01:13 <myname> why do you need to invert that
19:01:21 <myname> thst is basically what a grammar does
19:01:35 <oerjan> the refal website seems not very active, but maybe not dead either
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19:04:16 <oerjan> <int-e> left it over night and pruned a bit: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cactus.png <-- huh. i lost interest after it started resetting.
19:04:25 <myname> so, ypu want to produce a word
19:04:41 <myname> whatever you choose, you are finished
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19:07:34 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> So I think functional-grammar would allow you tohppavilion[1]> Is it possible to efficiently "invert" an arbitrary grammar to produce a string in that grammar, given certain parameters? <-- arbitrary? no. that's pretty obviously just as TC as recognition. but for context-free, yes.
19:08:01 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I had the distinct feeling I was going to hit the halting problem there
19:08:12 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm going for a way to sort of /index/ a grammar
19:09:38 <hppavilion[1]> So if you have a grammar "fib2" representing the fibonacci sequence in binary, then fib~6 gets the string "1000"
19:09:57 <hppavilion[1]> ~ wouldn't have to have its left argument be an integer, of course, but you get the picture
19:11:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: for context-sensitive, it's probably decidable but with some huge complexity.
19:11:23 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: What's a simple example I could use to demonstrate functional-grammar?
19:11:49 <oerjan> i mean, _recognition_ is PSPACE-complete there.
19:12:54 <oerjan> hm, wait, maybe it's still PSPACE if you are trying to guess a legal input. PSPACE is resistant to nondeterminism after all.
19:13:08 <oerjan> so, "huge" but not _that_ huge.
19:15:22 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm not entirely sure what you mean by functional-grammar, unless it's simply tree-rewriting which ordinary functional languages do pretty well.
19:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's functional programming combined with grammar programming; sort of like functional-logic. I'm trying to figure out how grammar programming works.
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19:18:19 <oerjan> <Taneb> I need to be careful about which window is in focus when I apply a keyboard shortcut <-- just be glad if you don't have programs that exit on pressing "q"
19:18:37 <oerjan> (see: my bitchings about tatham's puzzles)
19:18:41 <hppavilion[1]> So... I'm thinking that pure grammar programming takes input at startup, transforms it, then produces the new string on output...
19:20:31 <oerjan> sounds like you might want regular transducers
19:20:52 <oerjan> (preferably also something non-regular, except i don't know how that works)
19:27:01 <oerjan> apparently regular isn't the word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_state_transducer
19:27:33 <oerjan> (although i _think_ you can describe them with regular expressions over input+output alphabet)
19:34:52 <impomatic> Is anyone else playing with BOX-256? http://programminggames.org/BOX-256.ashx
19:35:49 <myname> someone port it to android, please
19:37:20 <impomatic> Doesn't the web version work on Android?
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19:38:48 <myname> i get an empty gray box here
19:41:49 <izabera> challenge: compress a go game
19:42:52 <izabera> since you're filling the board, you don't need as many bits for the 100th move as for the first one
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19:44:35 <\oren\_> the iceland...ic? ish? prime minister has risined becuz of the panama papers
19:46:00 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\_: I'm attempting to invent functional-grammar programming
19:46:23 <impomatic> If I was in a position where I had to pay hundreds of thousands in tax of stash it away in a foreign country, I'd stash.
19:48:04 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I've decided that there are at least 4 atomic paradigms for programming
19:48:20 <hppavilion[1]> Imperative, Functional, Logic, Reactive, and Grammar
19:48:38 <hppavilion[1]> And other paradigms can be made by joining them with hyphens
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19:49:09 <hppavilion[1]> Functional-Reactive. Functional-Logic. Functional-Grammar
19:49:54 <myname> functional-logic is actually a thing
19:50:11 <myname> what kind of paradigm is grammar?
19:50:58 <hppavilion[1]> myname: main ::= [Char : "."], [EOF], {Char=a -> .a}
19:51:47 <myname> how does it differ from... well... a grammar?
19:52:22 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That program is supposed to be a cat, but I think I did it wrong
19:52:59 <myname> i don't get what's unique about it to make it a paradigm
19:53:12 <myname> also, what different kind of implementations there are
19:53:16 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It's distinct from functional, logic, reactive, and imperative
19:53:56 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Grammar programming is based on recognizing input strings with side effects in the process
19:54:10 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Which is, I suppose, vague enough to describe anything
19:54:34 <myname> that sounded pretty much imperqtive
19:58:23 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm thinking something like http://pastebin.com/wJJFNUD6 would be a truth machine
19:59:42 <hppavilion[1]> myname: The syntax and design is evolving, so it's not very good yet
20:00:10 <myname> that looks an aweful lot like haskell
20:07:51 <myname> i donjt get what qualifies it for a new paradigm
20:08:08 <myname> basically you are using pattern matching
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20:08:22 <myname> together with unsafePerformIO
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20:40:28 <HackEgo> Timzi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:40:36 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in Mexico!
20:40:51 <oerjan> i thought i might have added that.
20:41:01 <oerjan> Timzi: any relation to timwi?
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21:00:31 <Timzi> oerjan: sorry nope, just a name
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21:13:20 <fizzie> I was randomly clicking on YouTube "recommended" videos, and ended up at "ADGQ 2014 Bonus Stream - More TASBot", where the presenter thanked people working on emulators, such as "ais523 from the UK".
21:13:59 <HackEgo> [U+2115 DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL N]
21:14:54 <HackEgo> U+0000 <control> \ UTF-8: 00 UTF-16BE: 0000 Decimal: � \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0001 <control> \ UTF-8: 01 UTF-16BE: 0001 Decimal:  \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0002 <control> \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, C
21:15:11 <HackEgo> U+2115 DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL N \ UTF-8: e2 84 95 UTF-16BE: 2115 Decimal: ℕ \ ℕ \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: <font> 004E \ \ U+000F <control> \ UTF-8: 0f UTF-16BE: 000f Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
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22:05:34 <ais523> fizzie: I've been indirectly involved in much of the TASbot stuff
22:05:37 <ais523> mostly throwing out ideas
22:05:41 <hppavilion[1]> λ-calcular Core War was proposed on this channel a few days ago
22:08:24 <hppavilion[1]> Reactive Esoteric Programming game And Interactive Reparation Simulator
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22:29:38 <Vorpal> ais523: tasbot was/is the nethack one?
22:29:54 <ais523> Vorpal: it's a programmable controller for a range of consoles
22:30:00 <ais523> that memorizes a sequence of inputs and replays them
22:30:03 <Vorpal> didn't you do something to run nethack in a repeatable way, for speed run purposes? Is that unrelated?
22:30:12 <ais523> that's called nethack-tas-tools
22:30:19 <ais523> and only related inasmuch as they're both related to TASing
22:30:36 <Vorpal> ais523: what about the bot with a simple AI to play nethack, I remember that being a thing too?
22:30:59 <ais523> TAEB, that was ages ago
22:31:04 <ais523> I haven't been able to get it working recently
22:31:12 <ais523> one of the dependencies is broken on Ubuntu
22:31:22 <ais523> however, it works on Debian testing and Arch Linux
22:31:36 <ais523> thus presumably something broke and has since been repaired
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22:31:38 <ais523> (the dependency, that is)
22:31:46 <fizzie> Tactical Amulet Extraction Bot? It was a (b?)acronym for something like that, if memory serves.
22:32:11 <fizzie> fungot: Why can't you ever be at all tactical?
22:32:11 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, for the moment regarding the problem of limiting output, and the enormous risks to consumer safety. the commission participates fully in the european union
22:32:30 <fizzie> (At least it's not racist, like the recent Microsoft twitbot.)
22:32:36 <int-e> fungot: that's great but what about Britain...
22:32:36 <fungot> int-e: mr president, the european union
22:32:43 <fungot> int-e: mr president, it seems to me indispensable to the smooth functioning of financial markets, the most immediately available meps will also be holding an initial discussion between ministers for education agreed to implement the employment policy monitoring procedures, including in the financial area and exploit its opportunities more effectively, more democratically and with complete disregard for the state of israel and p
22:32:49 <fizzie> fungot doesn't support brexit.
22:32:50 <fungot> fizzie: the council's bodies are well aware that you have launched a website. consequently, the prospect of peace, freedom and property. this is why it is that committee that was entirely different from those of the commission to include in the main, to the greatest extent procedurally possible. given the approximately 1% annual improvement in energy efficiency.
22:34:30 <ais523> fizzie: forards acronym
22:34:44 <ais523> "tactical amulet extraction bot" wasn't chosen specifically to spell TAEB, it was chosen because it was funny
22:35:09 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if we can get fungot elected to the EU parliament
22:35:10 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, in retrospect "TAEB" seems an unlikely combination of letters to aim at.
22:35:10 <fungot> ais523: mr president, we are increasingly concerned at the violence of deportation, and in any case, as the commission has failed with these proposals, however, a sound corporate governance practices. the aim of producing a foreign policy which it has submitted. we all agree how important this directive is implemented in the various decision-making structures and political and objective equality is a ' food authority' s managem
22:36:37 <int-e> devising esoterically significant pronouncible acronyms is respectable
22:37:58 <int-e> `learn Despair is but the first step towards eternal damnation.
22:38:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'despair': Despair is but the first step towards eternal damnation.
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22:45:23 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, if you wrote a bot to counter its effects -- a tactical amulet non-extraction bot, in other words -- would it be TANEB?
22:45:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure how you'd write a bot to counter another bot, NetHack has very little interaction between players
22:45:54 <ais523> and what amount of interaction their is is randomly targeted
22:46:14 <ais523> I guess you'd be going aroud leaving levels for other players which were helpful to humans but confused bots
22:46:16 <fizzie> Maybe some sort of a sidechannel thing. Like the rowhammer attack, but calculated to ruin TAEB's day.
22:46:38 <ais523> constructing doors in the Mines, that sort of thing
22:47:46 <ais523> now I have a weird urge to go to the Mines, dig doors everywhere, then suicide the character
22:47:55 <ais523> but the chance that a bot would stumble across the level seems low
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23:20:18 <rdococ> why does everyone time out
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23:27:28 <int-e> who comes up with things like this... (II) RADEON(0): RandR 1.2 enabled, ignore the following RandR disabled message. \ (--) RandR disabled
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23:47:15 <Taneb> I've just encountered for the first time in a while the downside of a Terry Pratchett book
23:47:18 <Taneb> I've lost three hours
23:49:51 <Taneb> I haven't finished the book
23:50:27 <int-e> "lost" is a bit strong
23:51:09 <Taneb> Three hours spent whose passing I did not notice
23:51:21 <int-e> sounds like a good book then
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23:54:54 <int-e> oh wow, that's big. http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Linear_propagator
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00:02:30 <Taneb> How the hell was it discovered
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01:17:33 <Phantom_Hoover> gemini was a proper replicator which then went the extra mile and cleaned up the parent copy
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01:19:10 <Phantom_Hoover> some people inexplicably thought that it didn't count because of that
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02:50:15 <hppavilion[1]> I'm kind of tempted to go through Wikipedia's {{Programming paradigms}} template and make minimal versions of everything on the list
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05:09:00 <HackEgo> slist [S]: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
05:16:25 <Sgeo> It's 18 minutes long and I can't watch it right now
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05:30:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?sgeo: not found
05:30:48 <HackEgo> Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
05:32:23 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
05:32:42 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in Mexico!
05:32:50 <HackEgo> EgoBot is my arch-nemesis.
05:33:24 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a.
05:33:36 <HackEgo> \oren\ is an attempt to improve upon oren. The only thing it actually improved was name recognizability, and it made everything else... well, there isn't much else in a nick, is there?
05:34:11 <\oren\_> wait why am I not highlighted in either of those?
05:34:34 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
05:38:00 -!- \oren\_ has changed nick to \oren\.
05:46:54 <shachaf> catern: whoa whoa whoa, which one
05:48:16 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
05:48:53 <catern> shachaf: why choose this channel in particular to ask that??
05:49:04 <shachaf> catern: Which one would you prefer?
05:49:36 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
05:50:00 <catern> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_8yPap-k_s
05:50:23 <shachaf> catern: then there you go hth
05:50:30 <shachaf> I would have slightly preferred an unlogged channel.
05:50:41 <shachaf> But where can you get those anymore?
05:50:53 <catern> shachaf: there's also, you know, PMs
05:51:14 <shachaf> And besides you have too many usernames, I wouldn't know which one.
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06:55:26 <lambda-11235> Imagine a number ζ, such that ζ + x = ζ, similar to how 0*x = 0.
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07:00:57 <ais523> lambda-11235: +inf and -inf have that property in IEEE floating point, assuming that x is finite
07:01:22 <shachaf> If you add a number like that addition isn't a group anymore.
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07:05:37 <lambda-11235> shachaf: Didn't stop us from defining 0, in the case of multiplation.
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07:17:12 <hppavilion[1]> Ω-calculus: The world's first 2D compound calculus
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07:40:48 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: https://csvoss.github.io/projects/2015/11/08/lambda-circuitry.html
07:45:11 <lifthrasiir> ah fuck, I was going to paste a link to De Bruijn index and forgot who it is named after
07:47:02 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: I'm also trying to make a graphical-functional language, but I'm having trouble separating the rendering from the internal language desing
07:48:38 <lifthrasiir> when one sings a song, another can desing the song to silence the sound
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08:51:27 <shachaf> oerjan: What was your porridge recommendation again?
08:51:47 <shachaf> oerjan: I have some milk just past the expiration date.
08:56:05 <olsner> I generally recomment unexpired milk for porridge
09:03:15 <hppavilion[1]> A treetrix is like a matrix, but instead of being an array^2, it's a tree^2
09:03:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Where all nodes are filled in up to a certain level)
09:09:06 <shachaf> olsner: What's special about porridge that it needs unexpired milk?
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09:13:08 <olsner> porridge is not special at all
09:14:40 <olsner> that's why it doesn't come with special provisions for expired milk
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09:31:47 <shachaf> olsner: Well, I'm sure the expiration date is conservative.
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09:39:43 <b_jonas> In http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/comic/millie/comic?n=19990413 (Ozy and Millie strip), Stephan is collecting Gathering: The Obsession cards, and says he has doubles of the "Spell of Protection Against Brain Eating" card.
09:40:32 <b_jonas> Now if such a card exists, then there's probably one in the Shadows over Innistrad block. Is there such a card in the SOI set, which one if so, and could one exist if no?
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09:59:20 <ais523> b_jonas: well, brain eating would probably be represented as discard or exile from library or hand
09:59:36 <ais523> "Appetite for Brains" exiles a card of CMC 4 or greater from its target's hand
10:00:05 <ais523> I don't think SoI has a card that protects your hand from discard/exile effects specifically
10:01:05 <b_jonas> ais523: I could be wrong, but I think in SOI it's represented as milling and discard. Not as exile.
10:01:14 <ais523> Sigarda, Heron's Grace is the closest card in the set, it protects you from effects that are targeted at you (and thus from pretty much every effect ever printed that targets your hand, as they tend to be templated "target player's hand")
10:01:22 <b_jonas> Wait, exilesw a card from your hand? hmm
10:01:55 <ais523> but she's only a spell in the very technical sense, as she's represented in-game by the spell that summons her
10:02:13 <ais523> summoning an Angel is not what "Spell of Protection Against Brain Eating" implies to me
10:16:12 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I'd like to ignore the "Spell of" part, and even then "Protection Against" is strange as a card name, but I think that's only because Dana wasn't very familiar with M:tG when she wrote that
10:19:16 <b_jonas> ais523: I guess Sigarda, Heron's Grace would protect you from stuff like Duress and Hymn to Tourach, but it doesn't protect you from creates like Chittering Rats or Alley Grafters
10:19:44 <b_jonas> It also doesn't protect you from Thought Nibbler and its kin, but that's an upside
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10:49:28 <b_jonas> hmm, I'll have to do that computation locally then
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11:54:55 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: What was your porridge recommendation again? <-- rice or sour cream hth
11:59:51 <boily> hellørjan. discussing porridges?
12:00:34 <oerjan> shachaf is bringing up expired topics
12:02:24 <oerjan> i mean, bohi, shachaf is bringing up expired topily.
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12:14:41 <boily> that set the record of the longest portboilhello ever...
12:15:39 <oerjan> too bad my brain works so slowly.
12:16:00 <boily> . o O ( mmmh... do I have enough time in the morning for 皮蛋瘦肉粥... )
12:17:16 <boily> I'm out of coffee. I'll have to wait for April 16th to get some.
12:17:40 <oerjan> that sounds like a severy shortage
12:19:07 <oerjan> also, google translate utterly fails at that thing above.
12:19:58 <boily> http://img.wuhu.cc/2011/0920/20110920232345168487.jpg
12:21:11 <boily> century eggs and pork congee. put in a few bits of http://travelerfolio.com/travelerfolio/uploads/you_tiao.jpg in it and you got yourself one heathy breakfast.
12:21:15 <oerjan> looks more edible that what the attempted translation from japanese sounded like
12:21:37 <oerjan> (the chinese gave nothing at all)
12:23:40 <oerjan> ok it works if i split it up
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13:41:06 <zgrep> Kitten typesetting? :D
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14:22:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46746&oldid=45723 * 82.37.112.224 * (+219) /* Machines */ Noted that Ben Russell's implementation has a (slight, easily fixed) bug in it. (See the lines in the specification about reading the jump address after running the instruction.)
14:24:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46747&oldid=46746 * 82.37.112.224 * (-18) /* Machines */ fixed a potential accidental impersonation ^.^:
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15:00:46 * zgrep imagines a printing press that uses kittens...
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15:56:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46748&oldid=46616 * Conor O'Brien * (+22) /* Languages I have made */
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17:03:19 <Lamarian> I woke up last night with two words in my mind "fish coding" and I told myself that it was very important to remember this concept in the morning
17:04:19 <Lamarian> So I did. My surprise was huge when I checked on the internet and found out that it actually exists
17:05:16 <Lamarian> I am not a programmer but a visual artist, so I didnt know anything about esoteric programming languages
17:06:32 <Lamarian> I don't know where the hell this come from...could someone tell me what kind of practical application the fish coding might have?
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17:08:57 <Lamarian> I do not even know if this would be read by someone...but thanks, I am quite puzzled...
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17:31:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Reng]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46749 * Conor O'Brien * (+968) Created page with "''Reng'' is a two-dimensional programming language that borrows mostly from [[Fish|><>]] made by [[User:Conor O'Brien]]. While being large on structural and manipulation comm..."
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17:33:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoji]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46750&oldid=45816 * 63.155.63.148 * (+449)
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17:59:32 <impomatic> Oh well, can't remember how it works!
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18:01:48 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen x ever
18:01:57 <fizzie> That used to work, but the logs are no longer on the same system.
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18:15:14 <oerjan> <Lamarian> I do not even know if this would be read by someone...but thanks, I am quite puzzled... <-- and then he was never heard from again.
18:18:54 <oerjan> <HackEgo> [...] Conor O'Brien * (+968) Created page with "''Reng'' is a two-dimensional programming language that borrows mostly from [[Fish|><>]] [...] <-- badly timed synchronicity!
18:19:00 -!- int-e has set topic: Quite puzzling | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from California.
18:20:22 <int-e> should it be typepawing?
18:21:00 <oerjan> i don't see what setting has to do with which appendix you use.
18:21:23 <int-e> the kitten aren't mine
18:21:32 <impomatic> I've written a brief introduction to BOX-256 threads http://corewar.co.uk/box256/threads.htm (phantom_hoover might be interested when he returns)
18:21:58 <int-e> but okay... pawsetting then
18:22:13 <oerjan> type doesn't have anything to do with it either.
18:22:16 <oerjan> `learn Kitt is the singular of kitten.
18:22:28 <HackEgo> Learned 'kitt': Kitt is the singular of kitten.
18:22:35 <int-e> wasn't there some talking car
18:22:41 <shachaf> Note: people with croaks will be treated as if they're from The Frogs of Aristophanes
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18:29:16 <HackEgo> olist 1032: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:49:14 <oerjan> <impomatic> Oh well, can't remember how it works! <-- lambdabot used to have it, but it was disabled. i recall it was put back on briefly some months ago.
18:49:52 <oerjan> i think something about memory leaks was involved.
18:50:35 <oerjan> lambdabot obviously sees a lot of people
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18:52:02 <oerjan> impomatic: oh, and you can try nickserv, it'll tell you when a registered user was last logged on. although that doesn't help for idlers.
18:53:26 <oerjan> bah (about 0 weeks ago)
18:53:44 <oerjan> it's not particularly accurate, maybe it has something to do with his nick protection.
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19:04:07 <hppavilion[wc]> Esoteric Markup Languages would be accepted on the wiki, correct?
19:04:51 <hppavilion[wc]> If so, I'm adding the family that Minecraft and, afaict, IRC markup is based on
19:08:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TheSquare]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46751&oldid=12204 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
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19:13:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Start-reset markup language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46752 * 74.114.87.84 * (+1033) Created Page
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19:15:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Start-reset markup language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46753&oldid=46752 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Fixed formatting
19:17:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Start-reset markup language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46754&oldid=46753 * Hppavilion1 * (+9) Called it "esoteric" so it fits on the wiki
19:21:37 <hppavilion[wc]> IRC++: A markup that takes start-reset to the logical extreme (complete with stylesheets, a scripting language, and animations)
19:21:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46755&oldid=31899 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
19:22:17 <zgrep> hppavilion[wc]: Hi?
19:22:50 <hppavilion[wc]> zgrep: Just seeing if you were online. I'm logging off for a bit soon, but I'll be on on my main account soon enough
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19:30:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46756&oldid=46629 * Ozwg6693 * (+4903) /* Command Table */
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19:31:33 <earendel> tags: tcsc: oldschool low-level math solutions for graphic programming by ian bell [ the true head behind elite(tm) ] . http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/maths/ .. nice site
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19:37:00 <earendel> that's the authorization method.
19:37:53 <earendel> i can't believe tcsc gave me the same answer tho. how can you not love ian bell.
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19:50:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46757&oldid=46756 * Ozwg6693 * (+131) Formatted the table more
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20:11:36 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Use tab-complete to get my full nick. My client doesn't respond to "hppa" (my reaction time was just a coincidence)
20:12:02 <oerjan> freefall takes a darker turn again.
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20:13:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you're a bit nonsensical
20:13:14 <rdococ> so if we talk about hp, we ping hppa?
20:19:17 <myname> do i want to visit a course called "computational metaphysics"?
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20:20:22 <rdococ> computational metawhat
20:21:50 <rdococ> computational metawhatphysics?
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20:41:03 <HackEgo> smlist 433 434: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
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20:44:29 <impomatic> Phantom_Hoover: http://corewar.co.uk/box256/threads.htm
20:45:49 <b_jonas> myname: ask HackEgo, I think he is wise enough to know
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20:48:00 <impomatic> Phantom_Hoover: I would normally, but it makes the explanation easier if I use relative addresses
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20:48:56 <Phantom_Hoover> "Remember memory is buffered at the start of each cycle. Memory reads come from the buffer, but instructions executed are loaded from the current memory"
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21:04:40 * impomatic just crushed Roy's BOX-256 Smiley record. I'm down to 0x43h cycles
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21:45:48 <int-e> heh the sample code is so slow :)
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22:16:04 <int-e> the threads are fancy
22:17:50 <int-e> so first attempt at the multithreaded box is 0x11 cycles using 8 threads.
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22:20:06 <hppavilion[1]> What symbol should be used to open a pi-expression?
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22:20:43 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: That looks like a comment symbol to me
22:21:03 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: It doesn't have to look like pi; it's just for an anonymous thread
22:21:21 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Though it also looks like a preprocessor directive
22:21:34 <shachaf> "box-256.com says: Out of memory. If you are the developer of this content, try allocating more memory to your WebGL build in the WebGL player settings.
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22:22:43 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Any things other than functions and threads that should be anonymized?
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22:23:09 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're doing the pi calculus then everything is anonymised
22:23:41 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: It's not really full pi; it's just anonymized threads
22:23:50 <int-e> shachaf: hmm, I've downloaded the windows version and am running it in wine...
22:24:50 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I'm attempting to make a type-safe language to compile to JS
22:25:21 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps with some array programming mixed in
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22:29:39 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], i've just noticed that the pi calculus as defined on wikipedia doesn't have any pi in the syntax
22:30:04 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: You'd think they'd replace the v with a pi or something
22:31:28 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I thought that was just mathematical v...
22:31:49 <hppavilion[1]> Doubly stupider because (a) it's called "pi-calculus" not "nu-calculus" and (b) nu looks like v
22:32:06 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but it was all LaTeXy, so I assumed it was just the way mathematicians write v
22:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> why lambda is used for functions in the lambda calculus, now, is another question
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22:37:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, do you know where it's from? i can't think of any relevant word that starts with 'l'
22:37:10 <oerjan> wait was i that backscrolled
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22:39:38 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i believe having read that lambda was chosen because the typesetters couldn't use the symbol church(?) really wanted, so just chose the closest they had. which means it may have been meant to be a /\
22:40:11 <oerjan> and that may have been from frege or something.
22:43:12 <oerjan> hm nah, frege's notation was much more crazy
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22:43:29 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begriffsschrift#Notation_and_the_system
22:44:21 <oerjan> although admittedly it _would_ be a good way to give the typesetters trouble.
22:49:39 <b_jonas> `? hziulquoigmnzhah of cykranosh
22:49:47 <HackEgo> hziulquoigmnzhah of cykranosh? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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22:52:30 <b_jonas> `? Siona Patricia pa-Lehyll pa-Drusia Ishgur-Sal
22:52:31 <HackEgo> Siona Patricia pa-Lehyll pa-Drusia Ishgur-Sal? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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22:53:59 <oerjan> are you just making up stuff
22:54:13 <oerjan> we cannot have made up stuff in the wisdom, sheesh.
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22:54:30 <lambdabot> CYUL 062136Z 14011G16KT 3/4SM R24R/3000V4500FT/U R24L/3500FT/N -SN VV005 M01/M02 A2997 RMK SN8 SLP154
22:54:37 <lambdabot> ENVA 062120Z 27013KT 9999 SCT011 OVC015 06/04 Q0991 RMK WIND 670FT 28013KT
22:54:54 <boily> hellørjan. it's snowing. I do not agree.
22:55:13 <shachaf> int-e: This is scow. I shouldn't be playing this game now.
22:55:45 <oerjan> boihelly. this globabble warming thing is clearly a sham.
22:58:16 <int-e> shachaf: then don't?
22:58:58 <shachaf> I'll just finish one level.
22:59:36 <shachaf> How is golfing measured? Number of nonzero starting memory locations?
22:59:42 <shachaf> Or do people optimize cycles?
22:59:56 <shachaf> I guess s/locations/lines/ since that's how the game highlights them.
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23:03:31 <int-e> is there any abusive trick to get below 2 cycles/pixel on the checkerboard, I wonder...
23:05:05 <int-e> oh haha, barely below 2 cycles/pixel is doable
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23:06:16 <b_jonas> oerjan: not really. Siona Patricia is from http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2003-12-04.0383.html and Hziulquoigmnzhah of Cykranosh is from today's http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4072
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23:11:37 <FireFly> there's no c to turn into ç, so ǫ will have to do in a pinch (also it faces the wrong way...)
23:12:35 <boily> unusual diacritic usage. I like.
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23:16:19 <Phantom_Hoover> so what's the standard virtual machine package to use if i want to run windows or whatever
23:16:27 <Phantom_Hoover> back in the day i used virtualbox but then it got oracled
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23:17:32 <int-e> (but it's really, really stupid)
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23:26:48 <int-e> shachaf: no, single-threaded
23:27:49 <int-e> with threads I expect a 16 times speedup, approximately
23:28:48 <int-e> though it depends a bit on whether I have enough space for what I'm planning
23:29:39 <shachaf> Oh, you said 2 cycles/pixel. For some reason I thought 2 cycles/2 pixels.
23:30:18 <int-e> I want addressable video memory ;)
23:30:49 <int-e> the checkerboard would be a lot of fun with the array move, I think
23:31:09 <int-e> (which, frankly, I have yet to find a use for)
23:32:34 <shachaf> Why does this game run out of memory all the time?
23:32:39 <shachaf> I have to scrap my programs and start over.
23:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover> like are you doing the default challenges or trying to write your own thing?
23:36:11 <shachaf> This is happening in the editor. It's probably just my browser or something.
23:36:58 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah it used a shitload of hard drive space when i ran it on a university machine the other day
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23:37:31 <shachaf> It doesn't even let you copy and paste programs.
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23:55:13 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, I didn't know about *
23:55:53 <shachaf> Because I didn't even read the example program, apparently.
23:56:03 <shachaf> Or the instructions on the right.
00:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> (i keep remembering stuff from x86 asm which would be insanely useful and then realising it could never work)
00:08:22 <int-e> there, 0x23 for the checkerboard
00:08:22 <shachaf> Oh, I looked it up and someone has a 4-instruction solution to Checkerboard.
00:08:31 <shachaf> That's much better than what I did.
00:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> it is interesting how opcodes/addressing modes mean that even assembly is quite high-level
00:13:01 <int-e> I did some funny pipelining :)
00:13:19 <int-e> and I should be able to shave off one more cycle... let's see
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00:30:33 <boily> myname: mynamello. I think I prefer ahoily.
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00:41:57 <boily> GACK! just took a look at the outside world. weather was restored from months-old backups...
00:42:53 <fizzie> I think the weirdest part about that game was the term "memory depth" in the manual for the addressing modes.
00:46:53 <int-e> oh god, you can jump to odd addresses
00:47:14 <fizzie> I saw that in the manual as well.
00:47:29 <fizzie> But that's not odd from a real-hardware perspective.
00:48:56 <hppavilion[1]> Mapping data structures to control flow concepts, and vice versa
00:50:56 <hppavilion[1]> (Oh, and nesting data structures is equal to nesting control flow)
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00:55:43 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: I'm figuring out a correspondence between data structures and control flow :)
00:57:51 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: Hello. Have fun with that. I have to do English homework. :(
00:59:06 <int-e> seriously, 4 instructions... wow. I have 6, 5 if I allows the code to loop through nops instead of jumping back to the top...
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01:12:02 <impomatic> Oh, I missed all the BOX-256 chat :-(
01:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> otherwise the guy might implement that shitty LODPC instruction
01:13:54 <impomatic> My smallest checkerboard is 6. I've been mostly optimizing for speed though.
01:15:16 <impomatic> I have the new Smiley Face record now :-)
01:17:17 <Phantom_Hoover> impomatic, https://www.reddit.com/r/box256/comments/4dfqlm/4_squares_4_threads_0x2e_cycles_using_a_beam/d1r7bi5?context=3
01:18:26 <int-e> is anybody collecting records without solutions?
01:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> lets you get thread-specific behaviour at the cost of being an incredibly stupid way of doing so
01:20:47 <impomatic> int-e: I checked the reddit and hacker news threads for any records where the solution wasn't posted (for cycles only, no-one apart from me seemed interested in size)
01:22:51 <boily> int-e: int-ello. I can't stop binging QC.
01:23:16 <impomatic> Records are blue square 0x7, checkerboard 0x16, four squares 0x7, smiley face 0x2E
01:24:11 <impomatic> shachaf: I use the same nick everywhere :-)
01:24:13 <shachaf> Are those cycle records or line records?
01:24:14 <int-e> so my 0x22 checkerboard isn't too bad then
01:25:07 <int-e> is anybody trying for single-threaded cycles?
01:25:13 <shachaf> I was wondering about that.
01:25:32 <impomatic> int-e: that's pretty good. Only a couple of people have claimed less than 0x22.
01:26:11 <int-e> (singlethreaded I have 0x5E for the blue square, 0x1FC for checkerboard; multi-threaded it's 0x11 and 0x22 for now)
01:26:22 <impomatic> int-e: I wondered about collating single-thread cycle results, but everyone would just unroll the loops and fill all 63 available instructions.
01:27:15 <impomatic> Only 64 if the last instruction doesn't use the 4th byte.
01:27:20 <int-e> (if the last one is short)
01:27:53 <prooftechnique> "You must use a browser with WebGL. Consider downloading Firefox" > Running Firefox :|
01:28:58 <impomatic> There's a Windows version of BOX256
01:33:18 <Phantom_Hoover> if it's intelgrated that's probably why, especially if you're on linux
01:34:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: version: not found
01:34:31 <prooftechnique> Hanging Firefox, mainly, but maybe that'll figure itself out
01:34:37 <Phantom_Hoover> why do these shitty clients not have helpful /VERSIONs like xchat
01:36:03 <prooftechnique> Mine may be set weird because I'm connecting through ZNC
01:38:24 <Phantom_Hoover> -prooftechnique- VERSION WeeChat 1.4 (Mar 10 2016) via ZNC 1.6.2 - http://znc.in
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01:42:59 <catern> Are there any esoteric languages that don't parse to a tree, but rather parse to a DAG or a cyclic graph?
01:43:27 <shachaf> You can think of any lambda calculus expression as parsing to a directed graph.
01:43:46 <shachaf> Do you mean that it's observable from within the language?
01:45:37 <catern> Oh, well, I'm just asking because during an intro talk on compilers (that I am currently sitting in), the presenter said "Languages usually parse to a tree"
01:46:06 <catern> I was wondering if there was any way one could justify making that "usually" qualification
01:46:54 <catern> And I thought #esoteric might be helpful
01:47:35 <prooftechnique> Maybe this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_semantic_graph
01:47:45 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, what, because you merge identical subexpressions?
01:47:50 <prooftechnique> Looks like a compiler could use it for CSE and whatnot
01:48:03 <pikhq> I don't think Befunge parses into a tree typically.
01:48:12 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: I mean that every use of a variable has an edge pointing to the lambda introducing it.
01:48:21 <pikhq> At least, I don't see any sane way of representing a Befunge program as a tree in any meaningful sense. :)
01:48:41 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, 'use' in that context sounds like it's still a directed tree
01:49:07 <Phantom_Hoover> there's not even such a thing as a syntactically illegal befunge program, is there?
01:49:29 <pikhq> Well, there is in Befunge 93 at least.
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01:51:00 <prooftechnique> catern: Andres Löh actually has a paper on using ASGs for DSLs, which might be of interest
01:51:21 <Phantom_Hoover> as specified i think befunge programs are just a grid of 'commands'
01:51:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Being larger than 80x25
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02:01:57 <fizzie> Arguably, also files containing form feeds in {Une,Be}funge-98, and files containing newlines in Unefunge-98. (Although strictly speaking the spec does explicitly allow multi-line Unefunge-98 programs, the lines are just concatenated. And it doesn't specify what form feed does outside of Trefunge-98, so you could say by omission it's just a regular character. But still.)
02:02:36 <fizzie> Oh, and the Funge-98 spec says that Befunge-93 only allows "printable ASCII characters and the end-of-line controls".
02:12:35 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: A fungeoid... based on Numerical Computing
02:12:51 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: So you can calculate the product of two programs
02:13:16 <hppavilion[1]> (For individual instructions, + is parallel composition, * is sequential composition)
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02:35:45 <hppavilion[1]> If you have a multigroup (S, [a], [b], [c]), then there are infinitely many possible equations.
02:36:52 <hppavilion[1]> However, there are only (#S)^(n+2) possible n-ary functions
02:37:34 <hppavilion[1]> I conclude that there is more than one way to write some equations
02:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> And I conjecture that there are infinitely many ways to write any given equation
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02:39:53 <boily> hppavilion[1]: principle, not principal :P
02:41:49 <prooftechnique> Not in a way that I could talk at length about them without some reference material to back me up
02:42:30 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: Do you understand them enough to transfer some understanding to someone who doesn't
02:42:45 <prooftechnique> Depends what you need to understand, I suppose. I could try
02:44:10 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: What I want to do is make a tensor programming language
02:44:23 <hppavilion[1]> Not a language which uses tensors like an array programming language uses arrays
02:44:50 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: I want to make a language for which the /programs/ are... tensory?
02:46:33 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: I don't necessarily want to do it right now
02:46:45 <prooftechnique> What property of tensors would you want to apply to a program?
02:47:46 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: I want to be have a language for which the programs form a tensor (wiki uses that phrase, so I think it works)
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02:48:29 <prooftechnique> Well, I'd start by figuring out what that means. Maybe figure out what the Cartesian product of programs in a set language is, or what the space of linear transformations from programs to programs looks like
02:49:06 <prooftechnique> Assuming that programs are themselves vector spaces, that is
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03:02:27 <int-e> Oh finally, I see, the two square problems are badly designed... there's enough space to just draw all pixels explicitly.
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03:51:14 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: Well, the cartprod of two programs {a, b, c} and {1, 2, 3} is {(a, 1), (a, 2), (a, 3), (b, 1), (b, 2), (b, 3), (c, 1), (c, 2), (c, 3)}
03:51:32 <hppavilion[1]> The set is parallel-composed and the tuples are sequential-composesd
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03:53:23 <hppavilion[1]> The programs {a, b, c} and {1, 2, 3} represent set programs, in which instructions are non-blocking
03:57:34 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: Programs-as-vector-spaces sounds interesting, but I was thinking programs-as-vectors. But programs-as-vector-spaces sounds more interesting
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06:54:46 <newsham> why not just make ont hat sucks a little bit?
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07:07:37 <coppro> what's wrong with the old one?
07:08:00 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: Well, it's not suitable for operator-heavy development
07:08:13 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: I would like to be able to define new & arbitrarily-named operators at will
07:08:36 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: So I could have different operators for element-wise multiplication and traditional matrix multiplication
07:08:46 <coppro> s/new C++ compiler/new C++ language/
07:09:31 <hppavilion[1]> It prints out endless garbage when I try to compile a simple file
07:10:57 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: I'm thinking of calling the new language C⁂
07:13:16 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: then adopt a character ⁂. http://unicode.org/consortium/adopt-a-character.html
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07:20:39 <hppavilion[1]> I had accidentally targetted the compilation of main.cpp to one of its dependencies... xD
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07:41:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kantate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46758 * Keymaker * (+5598) Added my new low-level language based on a simple addition mechanism.
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07:52:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Keymaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46759&oldid=40487 * Keymaker * (+14) Added Kantate, some changes.
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08:46:51 <mroman> I was always getting shit for my irrational fear of dogs.
08:47:03 <mroman> Now people are scared of people not wearing bikinis.
08:47:55 <mroman> I'm pretty certain that getting attacked by a dog severly enough to see a doctor is far more likely than whatever a woman not wearing a bikini is likely to do to me.
08:48:09 <lambdabot> boily asked 3d 8h 26m 55s ago: hello? hello? hello?
08:48:22 <mroman> @tell boily HELLO FROM THE OTHER SIDE....
08:48:27 <mroman> IT MUST HAVE BEEN A THOUSAND TIMES
08:48:50 <mroman> that last one might be off an inch.
08:50:14 <mroman> (currently switzerland's top topic is if it's ok for muslims to not shake hands)
08:51:06 <mroman> (I'm guessing secretly everybody is happy if they don't have to shake a muslims hand but get enraged when a muslim chooses to not shake hands..)
08:51:55 <mroman> is it "other side" or "outside"?
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13:42:50 <J_Arcane> does anyone else know of any accidentally TC tabletop games besides MtG?
13:49:15 <oerjan> i know NP-complete and PSPACE-complete games, but TC requires a complexity beyond normal games, i think.
13:49:25 <oerjan> because unbounded state.
13:50:32 <oerjan> well, you need to generalize the size for the former, usually. so maybe they don't count in this sense either.
13:52:09 <ais523> you can do things like infinite generalizations of Sokoban and Minesweeper
13:52:34 <ais523> finding a game that naturally has infinite storage is hard, though
13:52:55 <ais523> and the ones that do, like Monopoly, don't have any obvious way to use it or do computations based on it
13:53:13 <ais523> hmm, what about Monopoly where the program is a repeating sequence of dice rolls?
13:58:43 <b_jonas> ais523: IMO what makes it hard to find TC-ness is that in the typical PSPACE-completeness proof of a game like sokoban or mario, you built the memory cells in the polynomial time preprocessing, and they're represented in-game as something like immutable in-game rooms. For TC you have to find a way to dig an unbounded sequence of rooms in-game, which is more difficult than just setting up a fixed number of rooms.
13:58:58 <b_jonas> \ you built the memory cells in the polynomial time preprocessing, and they're represented in-game as something like immutable in-game rooms. For TC you have to find a way to dig an unbounded sequence of rooms in-game, which is more difficult than just setting up a fixed number of rooms.
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14:07:01 <oerjan> b_jonas: nothing was cut off hth
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14:32:13 <Taneb> Apparently in 2005 my uni's CS department held a Vim vs Emacs paintball tournemant
14:32:19 <Taneb> Paintball is probably not turing complete
14:33:44 <HackEgo> 1271) <ais523> editor flame wars are fun, I typically take the side of emacs and vim versus everything else <ais523> normally I can get most of the emacs /and/ vim users round to my side, thus catching out all the other-editor-users who thought they were safe
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15:39:27 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> is it "other side" or "outside"? <-- that depends on whether or not you're a ghost hth
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19:55:50 <hppavilion[2]> The goal is to use it as an interactive Vi in-browser
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21:04:54 <hppavilion[2]> I think I've discovered a correspondence between data structures and control flow
21:06:39 <hppavilion[2]> Of course, like the CHI, not all things on either side have a common partner
21:11:21 <shachaf> Maybe this channel would be more appropriate for my question.
21:11:50 <shachaf> If all function application is left-associated, what set of primitives would you need to be able to write any function?
21:12:09 <shachaf> Something like unlambda without `
21:12:21 <Taneb> So "f $ g $ h" = "(f $ g) $ h"?
21:13:27 <shachaf> I don't think that's sufficient.
21:18:20 <b_jonas> shachaf: stack operation primitives, I think
21:18:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: no wait, you said left-associated, not right-associated
21:19:05 <b_jonas> in that case you need to start form a primitive that's not well-typed in HM, right?
21:19:26 <b_jonas> wait, which way is left-associated and which way is right-associated?
21:19:44 <b_jonas> and from which side are you applying functions?
21:22:40 <hppavilion[2]> shachaf: Wait, does left associative imply that types can only by (((Q -> P) -> S) -> T) -> U and such?
21:22:52 <shachaf> OK, then show how to translate an arbitrary lambda expression.
21:22:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: in that case, you need a non-well-typed function
21:23:19 <b_jonas> shachaf: you can't apply arbitrarily many arguments to a well-typed function, right?
21:27:05 <int-e> fungot: can you factor eleven?
21:27:06 <fungot> int-e: commissioner, the council of ministers, several former prime ministers, this institution is, after all, this was also true of the police and judiciary, long regarded as the most comprehensive legal statement of children' s safety may be a case of double hulls. with regard to amendments nos 67 and 68 would complicate the system rather than trying to do this both in conjunction with countries that have applied to join the
21:27:56 <myname> how is stacl based not left assoziative?
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21:29:02 <int-e> myname: in what context does that question make sense?
21:29:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:29:47 <myname> i am refering zu b_jonas idea of stack operations
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21:33:54 <fizzie> Double hulls, *that's* how we'll keep the children safe.
21:35:07 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have other parenting tips?
21:35:08 <fungot> fizzie: from a logical point of view on the subject of this own-initiative report commits various cardinal sins. the first deadline to be set at a higher level of investment and, thus, cannot accept amendments nos 30, 38 and amendments nos 5 and 6. as for the inspections, very much for your invitation, mrs kinnock, for pointing this out because i was looking to a new trend in the member states and applicant countries, whereas p
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21:39:32 <int-e> oh you mean something like this
21:39:35 <int-e> > let push x a c = c (a:x); add (a:b:x) c = c (a+b:x); end x = x; start c = c [] in start push 1 push 2 add push 3 add end
21:41:11 <myname> end (x:_) = x would be nicer
21:42:11 <myname> if you only want to calculate scalars, that is
21:42:46 <int-e> oh, Oleg attributes this to Okasaki, interesting. http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/polyvariadic.html
21:43:10 <shachaf> myname: But you don't know at compile-time what will be in the stack.
21:43:18 <shachaf> Of course you could type-check it if you wanted to.
21:43:23 <shachaf> > let { push x a c = c (a,x); add (a,(b,x)) c = c (a+b,x); end (x,()) = x; start c = c () } in start push 1 push 2 add push 3 add end
21:43:33 <shachaf> > let { push x a c = c (a,x); add (a,(b,x)) c = c (a+b,x); end (x,()) = x; start c = c () } in start push 1 push 2 add push 3 add add end
21:43:34 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘(t, ())’ with ‘()’
21:43:34 <lambdabot> Expected type: (t, ()) -> ((t, ()) -> t) -> t
21:43:35 <lambdabot> Actual type: (t, (t, ())) -> ((t, ()) -> t) -> t
21:45:06 <int-e> such a readable type error :)
21:45:23 <shachaf> @let data HList :: [*] -> * where { HNil :: HList '[]; (:!) :: x -> HList xs -> HList (x ': xs) }
21:45:43 <int-e> fungot: do we want to talk to quintopia?
21:45:44 <fungot> int-e: commissioner diamantopoulou, mr katiforis presents a report on one very important element of which is the year of marine safety, which will require the mobilisation of european engineers and support teams could, in fact, the dogma of the uncontrolled interpretative powers granted to the commission proposal for extending magp iv and it is there that we have balanced all the points we fought to improve.
21:45:56 <int-e> politicians just can't say no.
21:48:00 <myname> shachaf: why do i need to know?
21:48:57 <myname> just throw the error, it's fine
21:49:36 <shachaf> gotta type-check everything
21:49:47 <shachaf> Also I thought I'd use HList and maybe get a better error message.
21:50:08 <shachaf> But the joke's on me because it's not even working and I don't know why.
21:50:57 <int-e> does it work in ghci?
21:50:59 <shachaf> Just another day in HListland.
21:51:03 <shachaf> I don't know, I don't have ghci.
21:51:10 <shachaf> Well, the other day I wrote HListy code in C++. That was worse.
21:51:16 <int-e> how can you not have ghci!
21:51:31 <shachaf> > let { push x a c = c (a :! x); add (a :! (b :! x)) c = c ((a+b) :! x); end (x :! HNil) = x; start c = c HNil } in start push 1 push 2 add push 3 add end
21:51:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘HList (x : xs1) -> t2’
21:51:33 <lambdabot> because type variable ‘xs1’ would escape its scope
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21:53:30 <int-e> :t let { push x a c = c (a :! x); add (a :! (b :! x)) c = c ((a+b) :! x); end (x :! HNil) = x; start c = c HNil } in start push
21:53:31 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘HList (x1 : xs1) -> t2’
21:53:31 <lambdabot> because type variable ‘xs1’ would escape its scope
21:53:51 <int-e> I guess not being able to type this prefix could be a problem
21:54:28 <shachaf> > let { push x a c = c (a :! x); add (a :! (b :! x)) c = c ((a+b) :! x); end (x :! HNil) = x; start c = c HNil } in () -- The issue is in the definitions.
21:54:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘HList (x : xs1) -> t1’
21:54:34 <lambdabot> because type variable ‘xs1’ would escape its scope
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21:58:10 <shachaf> > let { push x a c = c (a :! x); add :: HList (Int ': Int ': xs) -> (HList (Int ': xs) -> r) -> r; add (a :! (b :! x)) c = c ((a+b::Int) :! x); end :: HList '[x] -> x; end (x :! HNil) = x; start c = c HNil } in start push 1 push 2 add push 3 add end
21:58:18 <shachaf> It was just an inference issue?
21:58:52 <shachaf> > let { push x a c = c (a :! x); add :: Num x => HList (x ': x ': xs) -> (HList (x ': xs) -> r) -> r; add (a :! (b :! x)) c = c ((a+b) :! x); end :: HList '[x] -> x; end (x :! HNil) = x; start c = c HNil } in start push 1 push 2 add push 3 add end
21:59:08 <int-e> will it work in ghc 8?
21:59:11 <shachaf> Why does that have an inference issue?
22:01:11 <shachaf> :t let { end (x :! HNil) = x } in end
22:01:13 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘t2’ with actual type ‘x’
22:05:31 <int-e> :t let end xs = case xs of { x :! HNil -> () } in 42
22:05:33 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘:!’
22:05:33 <lambdabot> ‘:+’ (imported from Data.Complex),
22:05:58 <int-e> :t let end xs = case xs of { x :! HNil -> () } in 42
22:05:59 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘t’ with actual type ‘()’
22:06:53 <int-e> so it has learned nothing about the return type... and then there comes the GADT pattern match that freezes the type variables outside? dunnno. the ways of the type checker are mysterious and convoluted.
22:10:56 <ais523> :! doesn't look like an operator, ': might be one though
22:11:04 <int-e> The :! is part of the HList definition. ': is a type-level cons operator.
22:11:21 <int-e> well, type-literal level
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22:12:35 <ais523> is ' reserved for type-level operators?
22:13:00 <int-e> (okay, that was stupid)
22:13:11 <ais523> it got all the way up to the ] before getting confused
22:13:24 <ais523> I take it '[' was parsed as a character
22:13:26 <int-e> > '['() -- is just a type error
22:13:27 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘() -> t’ with actual type ‘Char’
22:13:27 <lambdabot> The function ‘'['’ is applied to one argument,
22:13:37 <b_jonas> ais523: I think you need to write it as '[]()
22:13:39 <ais523> and only failed to parse after that
22:13:51 <int-e> b_jonas: I think ais523 didn't make the mistake
22:13:59 <int-e> b_jonas: but anyway :t parses expressions
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22:14:55 <ais523> what does k mean in a kind?
22:15:08 <int-e> it's a polymorphic kind
22:15:12 <int-e> so a kind variable
22:15:31 <ais523> I didn't realise we had kind-level polymorphism
22:15:50 <int-e> ghc has grown some fancy type system extensions in the last three (I think) years
22:16:00 * ais523 wonders if it's possible to identify types with kinds without becoming dependently typed
22:20:59 <shachaf> ais523: That's sort of what GHC does.
22:21:08 <shachaf> Depending on what you mean by "identify".
22:21:14 <ais523> I'm not sure what I mean
22:22:15 <shachaf> When you define a type Maybe a with values Nothing and Just a, GHC also defines a kind Maybe a with types Nothing and Just a
22:22:44 <ais523> is it possible to construct a value of type Nothing?
22:22:59 <shachaf> No. By "type" I just mean that it exists on the type level.
22:23:16 <coppro> ais523: well, even in a dependently-typed language you can't create a object of type Nothing
22:23:24 <coppro> at least, not any one I've seen
22:23:30 <ais523> hmm, it doesn't seem that the types have much in common with the kinds apart from having the same name
22:23:58 <int-e> but anyway the type-level 'Nothing and the data-level Nothing are not the same.
22:24:25 <shachaf> What if value-level functions were also automatically lifted to type-level functions?
22:25:22 <int-e> . o O ( my_head _ = unsafePerformIO ... )
22:25:41 <shachaf> ski: see also the conversation in this channel a few screens ago
22:25:50 <ais523> shachaf: is that even possible in general?
22:25:56 <int-e> but I suspect that then you get all the bad aspects of dependent type (undecidable type checking) without any benefits.
22:26:10 <ais523> is there a type-level fix? that feels like the largest problem
22:26:47 <shachaf> ais523: Well, you have isorecursive types. Not equirecursive types like I think you can get in ocaml.
22:27:04 <int-e> but you can already do funny things (like constructing a type satisfying x ~ [x]) with type families.
22:27:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think haskell has those too, but only if you enable an extension flag, and you normally don't want that, because it makes typechecker errors REALLY confusing because type errors that lead to recursive types get caught too late
22:27:54 <int-e> sorry... didn't read what shachaf wrote before pressing return
22:28:16 <shachaf> b_jonas: I've never seen Haskell have those.
22:28:29 <shachaf> It would be interesting to try.
22:32:45 <ski> b_jonas : it's the OCaml implementation which has them (`-rectypes'). they already need them for (cyclic) object types. the option just removes the restriction that the cycle has to go through an object type
22:33:28 <shachaf> I remember https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2006-December/020072.html
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22:38:43 <izabera> https://github.com/Rochester-NRT/AlphaG
22:38:48 <izabera> https://github.com/Rochester-NRT/AlphaGo
22:42:38 <ski> (and you need cyclic object types for binary methods and "clone" methods. see <http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/objectexamples.html#ss%3Acloning-objects>,<http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/objectexamples.html#ss%3Abinary-methods>. also <http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/objectexamples.html#ss%3Afunctional-objects>)
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23:38:32 <oerjan> <shachaf> If all function application is left-associated, what set of primitives would you need to be able to write any function? <-- hm sounds familiar.
23:39:01 <shachaf> oerjan: I think I've asked this before.
23:39:09 <shachaf> And someone even sent me a paper or something about it.
23:39:19 <shachaf> It was called something like "bracketing combinators" but I can't find it now.
23:39:20 <ais523> oerjan: shachaf: isn't that just Underload?
23:39:28 <oerjan> i know i showed once that you can refactor everything as a big blob of id and (.) followed by your original terms, but i'm not sure if the big blob itself can then be split up.
23:39:36 <ais523> or, well, concatenative languages generally
23:39:56 <oerjan> ais523: that would be right-associated.
23:40:14 <oerjan> without a lot of tweaking, anyway.
23:40:16 <ais523> all functions are associative in Underload
23:40:23 <ais523> so the association doesn't really matter
23:40:34 <shachaf> oerjan: You mean the big blob is a tree?
23:40:36 <oerjan> ais523: um we're assuming the application is the usual lambda one.
23:41:02 <shachaf> I'm talking about "unlambda without `"
23:41:03 <ais523> I guess it is right-associative then?
23:41:22 <ais523> shachaf: where you basically have enough `s at the start of the program to balance it?
23:41:25 <shachaf> In Haskell "f x y" is "(f x) y"
23:41:34 <oerjan> shachaf: a (b (c d) e) = (.) a (b (c d)) e = (.) ((.) a) b (c d) e etc.
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23:42:37 <oerjan> = (.) ((.) ((.) a) b)) c d e
23:43:01 <shachaf> OK, but your blob isn't standalone there.
23:43:16 <oerjan> you eventually get all the rest out
23:43:42 <shachaf> Do you? When I've done it in the past I ran into cases where it didn't happen with the natural (.)ification.
23:43:52 <oerjan> * = (.) ((.) ((.) a) b) c d e
23:44:04 <shachaf> You run into (.)^6 = (.)^10 and the expression keeps growing.
23:44:13 <oerjan> = (.) (.) ((.) ((.) a) b c d e
23:45:10 <oerjan> * = (.) (.) ((.) ((.) a)) b c d e
23:45:24 <shachaf> it's easier if you give (.) a non-infix name hth
23:45:41 <oerjan> = (.) ((.) (.)) (.) ((.) a) b c d e
23:45:47 <shachaf> copumpkin: Maybe you were the one who sent me that paper?
23:46:12 <oerjan> = fmap (fmap fmap) fmap (fmap a) b c d e
23:46:13 <shachaf> oerjan: "bracketing combinators" or something
23:46:32 <oerjan> = fmap (fmap (fmap fmap) fmap) fmap a b c d e
23:46:37 <oerjan> there, one initial blob
23:46:50 <shachaf> OK, I believe that it works in this case.
23:47:02 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure it works in general.
23:47:02 <shachaf> I don't remember whether the issue I ran into was trying to deblob the fmaps themselves.
23:47:15 <oerjan> right, i don't know if that works.
23:47:44 <lambdabot> mroman said 14h 59m 22s ago: HELLO FROM THE OTHER SIDE....
23:48:06 <boily> @tell mroman *gasp*! you're not dead! well... if you are, you communicate!
23:48:23 <oerjan> = fmap fmap (fmap (fmap fmap)) fmap fmap a b c d e
23:48:44 <oerjan> perhaps it starts getting harder now
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23:51:32 <oerjan> <shachaf> You run into (.)^6 = (.)^10 and the expression keeps growing. <-- in that case surely you can just shortcut back >:)
23:51:33 <shachaf> myname: just search the #haskell logs for "fmap fmap fmap fmap". i've done plenty of this.
23:52:07 <shachaf> oerjan: Anyway, you're obviously not going to be able to encode an arbitrary binary tree structure in unary.
23:52:26 <oerjan> shachaf: well ok right, you need more than just fmap.
23:52:45 <oerjan> so the question is, how little do you need to be able to decode a fmap blob
23:53:44 <oerjan> boily: from other things mroman said, i think he may be confused about the connotation of "THE OTHER SIDE"
23:54:01 <shachaf> oerjan did say "fmap and id"
23:54:02 <oerjan> (dammit, forgot to portmantell again)
23:54:46 <oerjan> <myname> you are crazy <-- wait, anyone in particular, or all of us twh
23:55:24 <oerjan> shachaf: i think you only need id for the trivial case.
23:55:43 <boily> hellørjan. there are multiple other sides? as far as I know, there's the Other Side, Our Side, and that's about it.
23:55:45 <oerjan> consider it the empty blob, or something.
23:58:19 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
23:58:24 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Functor f1) => f (a -> b) -> f (f1 a -> f1 b)
23:58:31 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
23:58:38 <ais523> :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
23:58:39 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> a1 -> b) -> f a -> f (f1 a1 -> f1 b)
23:59:00 <shachaf> :t dot dot dot dot dot dot
23:59:01 <lambdabot> (b -> b1 -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> (a1 -> b1) -> a1 -> c
23:59:23 <ais523> I actually think the fmap version might be clearer, it's surprising that it only uses two functors
23:59:45 <oerjan> :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
23:59:45 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a1 -> a -> b) -> f a1 -> f (f1 a -> f1 b)
00:00:11 <oerjan> ais523: note periodicity
00:00:37 <ais523> although that type's not /quite/ the same, a and a1 swapped names :-P
00:01:24 <oerjan> ais523: they're alpha equivalent.
00:04:00 <boily> oerjan: I got bibled.
00:04:28 <oerjan> fmap fmap (fmap (fmap fmap)) = fmap (fmap fmap) fmap (fmap fmap) = fmap (fmap (fmap fmap) fmap) fmap fmap
00:06:06 <ais523> now I'm wondering if (.) and ((.) (.)) are enough
00:06:13 <ais523> probably not, but at least it doesn't obviously fall into cycle issues
00:07:39 <shachaf> higgledy piggledy / a i s 5 2 3, / composed composition, fell / into a trap; // lacking regard for the / periodicity / he got stuck in a cycle, for- / ever to map
00:10:27 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
00:11:56 <oerjan> a (b (c (d e))) = fmap a b (c (d e)) = fmap (fmap a b) c (d e) = fmap (fmap (fmap a b)) c d e
00:12:37 <oerjan> it looks like possibly the blob is never larger than the original?
00:13:30 <oerjan> no. i'm talking about the general process: you never add more fmaps than you get variables extracted
00:13:46 <int-e> Yay, figured out a way to do the checkerboard in 0x16 cycles... and actually 0x15 might just be possible.
00:13:54 <oerjan> if this is true, then (.) and (.) (.) must be enough.
00:14:05 <shachaf> I always tried to deblob the fmaps too
00:14:16 <oerjan> because if you can use (.) (.) you can force it to shrink
00:14:41 <oerjan> because a nontrivial fmap blob must contain fmap fmap somewhere.
00:17:18 <oerjan> i'm a little worried if it's true though, what if c above is composite?
00:18:30 <oerjan> if c, d and e are plain variables, then a (b (c (d e))) = fmap (fmap (fmap a b)) c d e does not grow the initial "blob"
00:19:59 <oerjan> i can assume e is, because it's the "innermost"
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00:21:43 <oerjan> <html><body><a href="/">Click here</a></body></html>
00:22:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: my point is there's only one page, and it links only to itself hth
00:24:09 <shachaf> oerjan: fmap (fmap a b) c (d e) = fmap (fmap (fmap a b)) c d e ?
00:24:10 <oerjan> . o O ( at least it keeps him off the streets )
00:25:58 <ais523> oerjan: surely it could have a more informative link text than "click here"
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00:26:26 <oerjan> ais523: only if it's more minimal hth
00:26:55 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: The language you use instead of JavaScript is Brainfuck (well, a derivative, but it has to be for it to work)
00:28:27 <shachaf> oerjan: It's dot dot (dot (dot a b)) c d e
00:30:15 <oerjan> > fmap fmap (fmap (fmap f g)) h f x :: Expr
00:30:17 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show a2) arising from a use of ‘f’
00:30:17 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a2’ is ambiguous
00:30:17 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
00:30:28 <shachaf> :t (\a b c d e -> dot dot (dot (dot a b)) c d e) :: (d -> e) -> (c -> d) -> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> e
00:30:29 <lambdabot> (d -> e) -> (c -> d) -> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> e
00:31:42 <oerjan> fmap (fmap a b) c (d e) = fmap (fmap (fmap a b) c) d e = fmap fmap (fmap (fmap a b)) c d e
00:32:28 <shachaf> that's what i wrote above hth
00:32:36 <oerjan> switching notation in the middle of the process again is too much for my brain.
00:33:07 <oerjan> anyway, that does indeed not look smaller.
00:33:21 <oerjan> unless we use that fmap fmap is allowed.
00:33:46 <shachaf> = dot (dot dot) (dot dot (dot a)) b c d e
00:35:06 <shachaf> = dot (dot (dot dot)) (dot (dot dot) dot) a b c d e
00:35:17 <shachaf> Of course you can dot that some more.
00:35:54 <oerjan> ok that's not smaller.
00:36:10 <shachaf> what if the other function you need is called dash
00:36:16 <shachaf> you can encode binary trees in morse code
00:36:30 <shachaf> :t (\a b c d e -> dot (dot dot dot dot) (dot dot dot dot dot) a b c d e) :: (d -> e) -> (c -> d) -> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> e
00:36:31 <lambdabot> (d -> e) -> (c -> d) -> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> e
00:37:11 <shachaf> But this particular tree is a special one, of course.
00:38:55 <oerjan> dot (dot dot) (dot dot (dot a)) b c d e = dot (dot (dot dot)) (dot dot) (dot a) b c d e
00:39:42 <oerjan> = dot (dot (dot (dot dot)) (dot dot)) dot a b c d e
00:39:50 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa, yours is different
00:40:00 <oerjan> i thought yours seemed fishy
00:41:19 <oerjan> mine somehow manages not to grow there
00:41:59 <shachaf> :t (`asTypeOf` (\a b c d e -> a (b (c (d e))))) $ \a b c d e -> dot (dot (dot (dot dot)) (dot dot)) dot a b c d e
00:42:00 <lambdabot> (b2 -> c) -> (b1 -> b2) -> (b -> b1) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
00:43:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minimalist's Markup]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46760 * Hppavilion1 * (+3290) Created Page
00:45:33 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: It can ONLY be edited in a monospace fontface :)
00:46:12 <ais523> hppavilion[2]: is that more or less evil than using terminal control codes as an HTML equivalent?
00:46:22 <oerjan> a (b c) = dot a b c is the fundamental transformation here. is there some kind of measure on it which doesn't grow?
00:46:40 <ais523> (I learned recently that there was a serious attempt to do that, but it ran so far behind schedule that it was only finished in 1999, by which point other standards had already won)
00:46:41 <shachaf> @unpl (.) ((.) ((.) ((.) (.))) ((.) (.)))
00:46:41 <lambdabot> (\ b c i l n o -> b c i (l (n o)))
00:46:47 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: I would guess less, because mine will allow more complex things
00:47:01 <shachaf> @unpl (.) ((.) ((.) ((.) (.))) ((.) (.))) (.)
00:47:02 <ais523> hppavilion[2]: no, this allowed more complex things
00:47:08 <ais523> it had the same featureset as, say, OpenDocument
00:47:13 <ais523> despite being based on terminal control codes
00:47:21 <ais523> it even had support for things like vector graphics
00:47:30 <ais523> hppavilion[2]: look up "Open Document Architecture" (e.g. on Wikipedia)
00:47:55 <oerjan> ais523: so it was the hurd of hypertext?
00:48:25 <ais523> oerjan: more like the hurd of Word, I guess
00:48:36 <ais523> it was originally intended to migrate things out of Word and WordPerfect
00:48:40 <ais523> then it sort-of blew up
00:48:54 <hppavilion[2]> Crap, just realized that it doesn't support hyperlinks, and that there's no way to do that
00:49:01 <ais523> also it suffers from the problem that some of the most basic terminal control codes (like cursor movement) don't really translate well to a word-processing conteext
00:49:03 <hppavilion[2]> I guess I'll have to introduce them as part of the scripting
00:49:39 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: One of the rules of it is that it's pretty much just a finite (albeit > 16m) set of tags
00:50:12 <shachaf> @@ @run text . (let { f ('d':'o':'t':xs) = "(.)"++f xs; f (x:xs) = x:f xs; f "" = "" } in f) $ @show dot (dot (dot (dot dot)) (dot dot)) dot
00:50:13 <lambdabot> (.) ((.) ((.) ((.) (.))) ((.) (.))) (.)
00:50:18 <shachaf> @@ @unpl @run text . (let { f ('d':'o':'t':xs) = "(.)"++f xs; f (x:xs) = x:f xs; f "" = "" } in f) $ @show dot (dot (dot (dot dot)) (dot dot)) dot
00:50:29 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: There is an effectively infinite number of hyperlinks, so I don't know how to introduce those properly
00:50:40 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: Have I mentioned that it's a scripted markup language
00:51:59 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot
00:53:24 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:53:35 <lambdabot> where <key>. Return element associated with key
00:53:42 <lambdabot> @unpl @run text . (let { f ('d':'o':'t':xs) = "(.)"++f xs; f (x:xs) = x:f xs; f "" = "" } in f) $ @show
00:54:54 <shachaf> oerjan: Maybe BCKW has some insight about this.
00:55:11 <shachaf> C, K, W are the three things people usually take away in substructural logics.
00:55:30 <shachaf> But what would it mean to take away B?
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00:59:47 <prooftechnique> @unpl @run text . (let { f ('d':'o':'t':xs) = "(.)"++f xs; f (x:xs) = x:f xs; f "" = "" } in f) $ @show
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01:06:19 <oerjan> prooftechnique: it's just a piece of shachaf's monstrosity, you need to surround it with @@s hth
01:06:42 <boily> are @@ called atats?
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01:15:05 <oerjan> david morgan-mar will be doing a reddit r/comics AMA tomorrow hth
01:17:54 <ais523> should we ask some #esoteric questions?
01:18:21 <oerjan> hm i dunno. he's on record as not doing programming any longer.
01:18:32 <oerjan> (when he can help it, anyway.)
01:26:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/3431.html
01:26:55 <oerjan> second last paragraph.
01:27:27 <ais523> oerjan: dmm's statements on programming reminds me of Keymaker
01:27:46 <ais523> who apparently dislikes non-eso programming
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01:46:24 <HackEgo> [U+01BF LATIN LETTER WYNN]
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02:02:33 <int-e> okay, that was more tedious than expected... but I have a 0x15 cycles checkerboard now.
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03:39:36 <int-e> So I've now looked at existing programs (in particular the "small" 0x16 cycle solution)... it should be possible to get down to 0x14, perhaps even 0x13 cycles.
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04:09:01 <shachaf> int-e: How many instructions do you think is the minimum?
04:09:17 <rdococ> I instruct you to say yay
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04:27:00 <int-e> shachaf: impomatic said there's a 4 instruction solution; my best was 6 (or 5 if one relies on wrapping code execution and doesn't sound the 0s)
04:27:20 <int-e> So... I have 0x13 cycles now. :-)
04:28:26 <int-e> using 41 threads...
04:31:18 <shachaf> I saw the 4-instruction solution.
04:31:41 <shachaf> I kind of doubt you can do better than that.
04:34:37 <int-e> I don't think that I can below those 0x13 cycles.
04:39:07 <shachaf> copumpkin: The answer is obviously "encrypt-then-MAC"
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04:49:29 <int-e> impomatic: if you want to play with it, the code is here: http://sprunge.us/PKXS
04:51:01 <int-e> (I rediscovered the gang scheduling idea... so to speak... myself... that's how I got to 0x16 and then 0x15 cycles. But the reduction in code size was essential to get to 0x13.)
04:54:43 <int-e> "sound" instead of "count"... I think this is my cue to go to bed.
05:01:01 <int-e> What about the blue box one... have people gotten below 8 lines (with wrapping code)?
05:01:49 <shachaf> oerjan: What transformation takes \a b c d e -> a (b c) (d e) to dot^6?
05:05:07 <shachaf> oerjan: Or dot dot (dot dot), for that matter.
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06:42:42 <zzo38> Another kind of card for Magic: the Gathering might be: Whenever a nonactive player would draw a card, the active player draws a card instead.
07:08:58 * rdococ slaps someone with a trout
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07:18:21 <rdococ> what about lua without metatables
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09:38:53 <impomatic> int-e: nice work, you should submit it to the leaderboard on reddit
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09:57:22 <impomatic> My BOX-256 solutions are here if anyone can improve them? https://github.com/impomatic/BOX256
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11:05:06 <fizzie> First time I've seen a coffin made to look like a wicker basket.
11:05:41 <fizzie> (There was one in the back of a hearse.)
11:07:23 <fizzie> Seems like it's a thing http://www.thegreenfuneralcompany.co.uk/graphics/cms/wicker3.jpg
11:15:12 * int-e prefers to stay away from reddit
11:26:22 <impomatic> int-e: do you mind if I post your solution on the leaderboard then? I can credit it to anonymous if you like?
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11:57:58 <boily> I have coffee. gorgeous, beautiful coffee. aaaaaaaah :)
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12:10:51 <int-e> impomatic: no I don't mind at all... attributing it to int-e may help some people recognize the author
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12:14:24 <int-e> cool 6 line solution for the big square (by staying away from reddit I mean that I don't want to post there... I'd just end up polling for replies every 5 minutes)
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13:14:11 <int-e> ah grammar... are there giants in eve online?
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14:54:21 <oerjan> a (b c d) = fmap a (b c) d = fmap (fmap a) b c d = fmap fmap fmap a b c d
14:56:07 <oerjan> a1 ... an b (c1 ... cn d) = fmap (a1 ... an b) (c1 ... cn) d
14:58:07 <oerjan> that last one looks promising for recursing
15:01:30 <oerjan> a (b1 ... bn c) = fmap a (b1 ... bn) c = fmap (fmap a) (b1 ... bn-1) bn c
15:06:00 <oerjan> a (b c d e) = fmap (fmap (fmap a)) b c d e this is related to fmap being sort of "lensy"
15:07:47 <oerjan> ah of course what we need is fmap . fmap . fmap
15:09:14 <oerjan> it might help that . is associative (and also is fmap)
15:17:28 <oerjan> a . (fmap . fmap) = fmap a (fmap fmap fmap) = fmap (fmap a) (fmap fmap) fmap
15:17:38 <prooftechnique> I guess the equivalent to fmap . fmap . fmap is fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap, which is pleasing
15:19:22 <oerjan> :t (fmap . fmap . fmap) `asTypeOf` fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
15:19:23 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Functor f1, Functor f2) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 (f2 a)) -> f (f1 (f2 b))
15:20:07 <oerjan> but it has to break down somewhere, because fmap^6 = fmap^10
15:22:14 <oerjan> = fmap (fmap (fmap a)) fmap fmap fmap
15:25:57 <oerjan> = (fmap . fmap . fmap) a fmap fmap fmap
15:27:24 <oerjan> this doesn't help enough if a is composite.
15:36:38 <oerjan> a (b1 ... bn) = fmap^{\circ n-1} a b1 ... bn
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15:47:33 <oerjan> @tell fizzie <fizzie> First time I've seen a coffin made to look like a wicker basket. <-- all i know is that when i googled "wicker basket" right now, google's second suggestion appended "coffin".
15:48:31 * oerjan got a bit confused about wicker <-> wicket, so before googling thought this was some cricket thing.
15:50:06 <oerjan> after darths & droids made me google ewoks yesterday, "wicket" doesn't give the hits i expected, either.
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15:56:50 * oerjan fails to spot any pictures of ewoks playing cricket.
15:59:37 <int-e> impomatic: ah, nice 0x12 cycles solution
16:01:27 * oerjan finds today's xkcd hilarious
16:02:06 <Phantom_Hoover> why do i have this awful feeling that box256's thread mechanics are now locked in for good
16:02:51 <impomatic> int-e: thanks :-) 0x11 would be possible if I could find space for one more instruction!
16:03:13 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's because you're psychic hth
16:03:33 <fizzie> oerjan: I googled for "wicker basket coffin" to find the image.
16:03:51 <int-e> impomatic: you can do it with misaligned instructions... you don't need the last bytes of the PIX ones.
16:04:08 <fizzie> That said, my suggestions are "wicker baskets", "wicker baskets uk", "wicker basket with lid" and "wicker baskets ikea".
16:04:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: xkcd's april 1 comic that somehow got delayed
16:05:02 <int-e> impomatic: oh wait, I'm doing the math wrong...
16:05:35 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: next year he'll do paint drying
16:05:48 <int-e> impomatic: so yeah I think I'm short by one byte.
16:05:50 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i gave up because it kept resetting in my browser
16:05:55 <Phantom_Hoover> i think time was probably the last genuinely great thing he did
16:06:35 <Phantom_Hoover> before he managed to fuck up even the pictoblog stuff and wrote that godawful thing explainer book
16:06:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: what about the comet probe
16:07:07 <oerjan> he had a real-time comic following the landing
16:07:41 <oerjan> anyway, i still think today's is hilarious, so there.
16:09:42 <int-e> impomatic: hah! you can squeeze in a PIX nn 03 instruction at address 0x16
16:10:32 <impomatic> int-e: fantastic, I'll do that now, thanks :-)
16:11:25 <int-e> (fortunately the number of threads will remain even)
16:14:01 * int-e is happy to leave the tedious work to impomatic ;)
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16:15:00 <int-e> impomatic: and you can reduce the amount of misaligned code by putting the jump table right in front of the thread instruction pointers.
16:15:29 <impomatic> int-e: done that already. I'd allowed for that
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16:24:36 <impomatic> int-e: done, but didn't need the PIX at 0x16 after all.
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16:50:05 <int-e> okay, we can do better still :)
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17:10:41 <prooftechnique> oerjan: This is my garden: http://xkcd.com/1663/#abf5687c-fbaf-11e5-8001-42010a8e0011
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17:28:04 <oerjan> shachaf: if you can express dot . ... . dot than you can express a (b1 ... bn), which allows you to build anything by recursion.
17:29:09 <oerjan> unfortunately sizes blow up when trying to use those mutually.
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17:30:20 <oerjan> um, throw a1 ... an (b1 ... bn) in there too
17:31:14 <oerjan> a1 ... an b (c1 ... cn d) = fmap (a1 ... an b) (c1 ... cn) d was the main starting point
17:35:51 <oerjan> fmap (fmap (fmap ...)) is also a base.
17:36:03 <shachaf> oerjan: I just woke up, it'll be a bit before I can think about dots.
17:36:40 <oerjan> and i'll be leaving soon anyway so...
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18:14:12 <shachaf> copumpkin: I'm not even sure how to justify the other two.
18:14:52 <shachaf> oerjan: now i can think about dots but you already scrapped
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18:17:08 <int-e> impomatic: http://sprunge.us/TaKQ is 0x10 cycles
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18:19:22 <shachaf> int-e: whoa, I was wondering if anyone would use that in a solution
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18:25:45 <int-e> shachaf: hmm, how concrete is your "that"? misaligned instructions, overlapping instructions, overlapping adds, this particular overlapping add?
18:26:21 <shachaf> Is there a use case for misaligned instructions that aren't overlapping?
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18:27:23 <int-e> well, some instructions come with unused bytes...
18:27:51 <int-e> so I would see a difference between having a PIX every three bytes and this overlapping ADD.
18:29:33 <int-e> oh no... I have to do this again...
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18:32:26 <int-e> even 0x0F should work
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18:33:58 <int-e> let's see... I need four more threads.
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18:40:55 <impomatic> 4 more threads = two more instructions (8 bytes). 4 for the IPs and 4 to overwrite the IPs :-(
18:41:13 <int-e> But it's possible... just needs work.
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18:57:48 <shachaf> int-e: For extra credit write a program that uses the IPs as part of an instruction.
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18:59:28 <impomatic> ais523: http://programminggames.org/BOX-256.ashx
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19:15:58 <zzo38> Instead of booster packs I may prefer to sell a customizable card game set as a "set box" which contains divisions by rarity and alphabetical order within each section. After confirming that you have received the correct cards, you can mix them and construct packs from them in order to make up a draft, and then afterward you can separate them by rarity to replace them into the box.
19:16:33 <shachaf> zzo38: But you could make much less money that way.
19:16:39 <ais523> zzo38: there are some games that work like that already
19:17:11 <impomatic> Isn't that how the new Netrunner works?
19:17:57 <zzo38> shachaf: The goal is to make a card game, not to make money. In a large enough tournament they would purchase a lot of boxes anyways. (Booster packs could still be sold as well, in case you deliberately want random cards or do not want to construct the packs yourself)
19:18:21 <shachaf> Hasbro's goal is to make money.
19:18:56 * impomatic only has the old Netrunner to play. But I set up a business account with the supplier of the new Netrunner last week so I can retail it.
19:20:47 <fizzie> Superb. Trying to operate the British Airways reservation site -- the dynamic part of the forms are subtly broken. So I check the javascript console, and it says "SyntaxError: expected expression, got '<'" for the file jquery-1.8.3.min.js.
19:21:16 <fizzie> Turns out that's because, instead of returning the jQuery library, their server has returned a HTML page saying "We are experiencing high demand at the moment. If you would like to continue please click on one of the following links, otherwise please visit us again later."
19:21:26 <zzo38> The instructions in the box would specify how many of each rarity per pack, as well as a copy of the game rules, and the computer codes for the cards in the set. (But I would also allow proxies unlike Hasbro anyways)
19:21:26 <fizzie> That's certainly very user-friendly, but it's a poor substitute for jQuery.
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19:22:02 <\oren\> what if there was a languahe where
19:22:36 <zzo38> When I said it is not to make money, I meant the goal is not primarily earning money; it is secondary. The primary goal is to make up the game.
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19:27:25 <zzo38> Also can include a barcode on the front of the card, so that it can be scanned into the computer. A computer database can be provided that includes the barcode numbers, so that the program can then be written to make scanning and make up the list on the computer from that.
19:28:08 <zzo38> (Possibly it could be a UUID or something like that in order that the same way can then even be used with custom cards)
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19:30:13 <int-e> meh, I miscounted the threads...
19:30:33 <zzo38> Including computer codes too also allows anyone to make implementations of the game on computer, as well as to clarify the rules more even if you are not using the computer.
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19:59:29 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
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20:01:54 <zzo38> It should be generally expectted to be English to be reading/writing this channel effectively.
20:02:24 <zzo38> (Despite many Spanish people seem to come on, but I don't know read/write Spanish so well)
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20:03:03 <ais523> zzo38: it's another person with ~canaima in their username
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20:03:49 <ais523> at this point it's almost worth banning the username fragment, lots of Spanish-speakers using canaima seem to end up here when they shouldn't be for no obvious reason
20:04:37 <zzo38> Yes, many people are thinking it is the Spanish IRC even though it is not, it seem? If it can be ban with the note/redirect so that if they do actually want it, to knock or whatever?
20:05:18 <ais523> hmm, which channel do we redirect to though?
20:05:26 <ais523> like, what is it called?
20:05:30 <ais523> we could give it a join message explaining
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20:12:46 <zzo38> It is the "canaima notice channel"
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20:14:12 <ais523> hmm, #canaima exists, it's not empty but it's pretty small
20:15:20 <zzo38> It would be a different channel such as ##canaima-notice for example
20:17:01 <ais523> yes, I wasn't planing to use #canaima, was just curious as to whether it existed
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20:20:07 <zzo38> "Important Note: This is not the Spanish IRC. If this is the channel you want anyways, please to knock or to change your username." (And then also write the same thing in Spanish)
20:22:21 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you hear Conspiracy 2 was announced?
20:22:59 <zzo38> I did not hear it, but now I do
20:24:16 <shachaf> Are you excited for all the new jams?
20:24:32 <shachaf> Also I think Return to Innistrad was released today or something.
20:25:20 <zzo38> I do not play the game much so I don't care
20:26:01 <shachaf> Would you be more excited for a new Magic: The Puzzling?
20:26:05 <zzo38> These new cards and new rules can be used with new puzzles though.
20:26:22 <zzo38> Yes I would be more excited for a new Magic: The Puzzling, and I would purchase it if they made available for purchase
20:28:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you tried http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/121390976958/the-duels-games-have-puzzle-duels-which-are ?
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20:31:42 <zzo38> Apparently they have been getting fewer and worse every time, anyways I would want a paper version
20:32:13 <zzo38> Still some other people (including myself) do make up puzzles too
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21:25:11 <int-e> impomatic: http://sprunge.us/EhhO
21:26:31 <impomatic> int-e: I didn't think it was possible. 62 threads, nice work :-)
21:30:07 <impomatic> I need to check my Smiley Face solution is safe
21:34:19 <int-e> fwiw, I don't think 0x40 threads will fit :)
21:35:36 <int-e> besides they wouldn't help... duh.
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22:39:08 <zzo38> "Science is always discovering odd scraps of magical wisdom and making a tremendous fuss about its cleverness." I have seen this quotation attributed to Aleister Crowley but have been unable to confirm it. Do you know who it is?
22:39:21 <zzo38> Another quotation is "The best armor is to keep out of range." Do you know where it comes from?
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23:19:29 <shachaf> oerjan: what are you mwahing about now
23:23:56 <oerjan> dot, dot dot, dot . dot, dot (dot dot), dot dot . dot, dot . dot dot, dot (dot . dot), dot . dot . dot, dot (dot (dot dot)), dot (dot dot) . dot, dot dot . dot dot, dot . dot . dot ...
23:24:21 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot (dot dot)
23:24:37 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot (dot dot) dot
23:25:09 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot (dot dot)
23:26:40 <oerjan> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot . dot dot
23:26:50 <oerjan> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot (dot dot) . dot
23:27:07 <shachaf> why are you writing some dots infix twh
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23:27:18 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot
23:27:25 <oerjan> shachaf: because it's easier for my brain to apply them that way
23:28:55 <myname> is dot dot dpt and dot . dot equivalent?
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23:30:28 <ais523> I wonder if lambdabot's @where is meant to be abused like this
23:30:49 <ais523> and if not, whether it would be worth adding an equivalent feature that's more appropriately named, and/o closing the loophole
23:32:21 <shachaf> @pl \a b c d e -> a (b c) (d e)
23:32:53 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot (dot (dot dot)) dot
23:33:40 <ais523> @pl \a b c d e f g h i j k l m -> a (((b c) d (e f g)) h (i j) k) (l m)
23:33:40 <lambdabot> (((((((((((.) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (. ((((((((.) .) .) .) .) . (.) . (.)) .) .)) . (.) . (.) . (.) . (.) . (.) . (.) . (.) . (.) . (.)
23:34:07 <shachaf> @pl \a b c d e -> a (b (c (d e)))
23:34:07 <lambdabot> (. ((. (.)) . (.) . (.))) . (.) . (.) . (.)
23:34:20 <ais523> hmm, @pl output on this sort of grouping operation seems to obey a relatively restricted grammar
23:34:25 <shachaf> @pl is cheating because it uses (. f)
23:34:26 <ais523> this might be exploitable somehow?
23:34:31 <shachaf> Which is really (flip dot f)
23:34:55 <myname> @pl \a b c -> a c (b c)
23:34:57 <ais523> hmm, perhaps dot and (flip dot) are leftassoc-complete?
23:35:20 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘not’ (imported from Data.Bool)
23:35:25 <shachaf> Well, what I wanted was a pair of functions that don't need parentheses.
23:35:54 <shachaf> So you can use "f g f f f g f" or something to define your blob, and then give it all your arguments.
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23:37:05 <ais523> hmm, can we think about this problem moving backwards?
23:37:25 <ais523> e.g. is it possible to define openparen and closeparen combinators that let you specify the argument pattern in advance
23:37:35 <ais523> and they somehow have the right functionality?
23:38:36 <myname> you could think about giving them the number
23:38:59 <myname> like paren 3 a b c d e f g = (a b c) d e f g
23:39:23 <ais523> myname: ugh, be careful
23:39:27 <ais523> you're halfway to inventing Ursala
23:40:09 <ais523> Ursala pointers use a syntax in which numbers effectively parenthesize that many elements
23:40:16 <ais523> e.g. 3abcdef = (abc)def
23:40:39 <ais523> so, have you /seen/ Ursala?
23:40:46 <ais523> it's at least as eso as BANCStar
23:43:04 <oerjan> <ais523> hmm, @pl output on this sort of grouping operation seems to obey a relatively restricted grammar <-- it all consists of applications of (.), itym
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23:44:07 <ais523> oerjan: yes, it's clearly made out of applications and partial applications of (.) but it appears to be even more restricted than that
23:45:14 <oerjan> shachaf: no, there's no flip in there. it's (a .) not (. a)
23:45:39 <shachaf> oerjan: it generates both hth
23:46:16 <oerjan> well ok. you don't _need_ flip, though.
23:46:43 <shachaf> @@ @unpl @pl \a b c d e -> a (b (c (d e)))
23:46:44 <lambdabot> (\ w al n q t -> w (al (n (q t))))
23:46:47 <oerjan> btw i'm very doubtful that adding just dot dot as a single combinator helps.
23:47:23 <oerjan> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot (dot dot)
23:47:24 <lambdabot> (\ k l q r w x -> k l (q r) (w x))
23:47:59 <oerjan> that's the only possible case which remains to check
23:48:27 <oerjan> everything shorter is equivalent to a straight line of dots.
23:48:39 <oerjan> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot
23:48:41 <oerjan> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot
23:48:44 <oerjan> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot
23:48:47 <oerjan> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot
23:49:06 <oerjan> hm admittedly that single one _does_ seem to give something new.
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23:49:51 <oerjan> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot (dot dot) dot
23:51:01 <oerjan> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot (dot dot) (dot dot)
23:51:02 <lambdabot> (\ l q r w x ad -> l (q r) (w x ad))
23:51:29 <oerjan> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot (dot dot) dot dot
23:51:30 <lambdabot> (\ q r w x ac ad -> q r (w x) (ac ad))
23:52:10 <oerjan> @@ @@ (@where dedot) dot dot dot dot dot dot (dot dot) dot (dot dot)
23:52:12 <lambdabot> (\ q r w x ad af ag -> q r (w x) ad (af ag))
23:52:35 <int-e> impomatic: smile! http://sprunge.us/VQCK
23:52:39 <shachaf> Oh, at least I figured out the general-case transformation for making a parenthesized dot blob.
23:52:57 <oerjan> ok doubt is lessening again, it seems that continuing from dot dot dot dot dot dot (dot dot) gives new functions
23:53:56 <shachaf> I guess that doesn't fix the @where.
23:54:00 <int-e> impomatic: there should still be room for another cycle or two
23:54:00 <oerjan> shachaf: no, just dot dot
23:54:05 <impomatic> int-e: that's a pretty big improvement!
23:54:59 <int-e> impomatic: but I'm not going to try... using 16 cycles for the actual drawing is such a sweet spot
23:55:02 <oerjan> shachaf: i deduced earlier that if you can convert every dot . dot ... . dot sequence to a straight lassoc line, then you get everything.
23:55:42 <oerjan> well basically, first you have
23:55:49 <impomatic> int-e: is your code specific to the smiley, or can you use it for any image?
23:56:43 <int-e> impomatic: http://sprunge.us/TfbH is how I planned it... the Y and Z regions (y and z are erasures) are specific to the smiley
23:56:50 <oerjan> shachaf: you have a (b1 ... bn c) = fmap^{\circ n-1} a b1 ... bn c
23:57:44 <int-e> impomatic: so it's quite specific
23:57:56 <shachaf> Are you subtracting the "-1" there?
23:59:46 <oerjan> hm i'm jumping too fast
00:00:01 <int-e> impomatic: basically I decided that a population of 170 was too big to store it all as data
00:01:13 <oerjan> hm AMA should be beginning now
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00:03:03 <oerjan> https://www.reddit.com/r/comics/comments/4dyros/im_david_morganmar_author_of_darths_droids_and/
00:06:57 <zzo38> How can I set up NNTP server and client on this Linux?
00:08:10 <oerjan> a1 ... am (b1 ... bn c) = fmap (a1 ... am) (b1 ... bn) c. so if you can handle fmap (a1 ... am) you can handle the former. but the latter is fmap^{\circ n-1} fmap a1 ... am .
00:09:30 <oerjan> and thus by induction you can handle any application of anything you can handle.
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00:10:44 <hppavilion[1]> I'm formulating an idea for an Esolang that could actually be of use to someone
00:11:23 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: A language based entirely on lazy-evaluated sequences
00:12:31 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Maybe sort of like Haskell, but the "Functions always return the same value for the same arguments" requirement would be dropped in favor of "Functions are lazily-evaluated sequences of values"
00:19:23 <hppavilion[1]> Here's a speculative example: http://pastebin.com/h3n9xdS6
00:20:33 <oerjan> shachaf: don't complain, it was just an act of chairity
00:21:17 <shachaf> I don't appreciate what you're doing and you should stop.
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00:23:54 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Given the latter part of your nick, I'm making a language that may be of interest to you
00:24:59 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: It's based entirely on feeding lazy-evaluated sequences into iterators to make NEW lazy-evaluated sequences
00:27:02 <ais523> it's a language and a VM and a security model and a browser plugin
00:27:13 <ais523> some of these things work better than others
00:29:41 <lambda-11235> ais523: It's also a drink. I personally only use the VM and the library.
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00:32:35 <hppavilion[1]> Truth machine now available @ http://pastebin.com/h3n9xdS6
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00:35:55 <oerjan> <ais523> at this point it's almost worth banning the username fragment, lots of Spanish-speakers using canaima seem to end up here when they shouldn't be for no obvious reason <-- i've been tempted.
00:36:26 <ais523> yes, I know you discussed it earlier
00:36:33 <ais523> the redirect-ban actually makes a lot of sense
00:36:41 <ais523> but you'd need a good description in the target channel
00:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Given the latter part of your nick, I'm making a language that may be of interest to you
00:38:05 <lambda-11235> Phantom_Hoover: It can construct infinite fibonacci sequences.
00:39:34 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: It reminds me a little bit of https://github.com/matz/streem.
00:40:28 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Really, it's just https://docs.python.org/2/library/itertools.html in the form of a programming language
00:41:38 <int-e> impomatic: darn, can't stop: http://sprunge.us/QVMB
00:41:48 <int-e> impomatic: using 32 threads... wee
00:45:02 <impomatic> int-e: have you still got a few ideas how to reduce it further?
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00:48:27 <int-e> I'd need to find a different approach...
00:53:15 <int-e> And I'm not very hopeful there... to manage to squeeze in more threads I think I'd have to compress the image data, but any decoding I can think of will need significantly more than 2 instructions per pixel (at least 2 extra instructions, I think)... so I'd need more than 50 threads, and that's optimistic?!
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01:12:25 <int-e> impomatic: apparently you got it done in 3.5 instructions per pixel... but that doesn't change the math significantly :)
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01:16:07 <impomatic> My code will display almost any picture, with any number of colours :-) (and I have code which is a few cycles slower which will display any picture).
01:17:44 <int-e> yeah I've just looked at the 0x2E cycle one
01:17:52 <impomatic> So I know whatever puzzle the author devises, if it has <=48 pixels it can be solved in <=7 cycles. Otherwise it can be solved in <=0x30 cycles
01:18:40 <int-e> > (0x14-5) * 31 / 170
01:19:23 <int-e> (that's instructions per visible pixel in my code)
01:20:09 <int-e> (there's some overdrawing and some pixels have to be erased... so it's worse than the optimal 2)
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01:20:52 <int-e> rdococ: excellent points. I like the middle one best.
01:21:11 <shachaf> int-e: That reminds me of a joke told by Raymond Smullyan.
01:23:24 <shachaf> "232a" in https://archive.org/stream/WhatIsTheNameOfThisBook/What-is-the-Name-of-this-Book_djvu.txt
01:23:35 <shachaf> Hmm, that's not great OCR.
01:25:44 <int-e> at least there was no drum solo
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02:17:06 <zzo38> I made some fix of Magic: the Puzzling: Codex but do you think it is more better now? Please tell me in case something is still wrong
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02:20:57 <hppavilion[1]> I have decided that, for XML-like data storage, KML is the optimal Markup Language
02:22:11 <zzo38> I think that it can be different whether you want text marked or data marked, too.
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02:24:35 <hppavilion[1]> http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/314599/why-is-xml-called-a-language-exactly makes me sad.
02:25:17 <hppavilion[1]> Obviously, for mapping data and holding arrays of integers/strings, JSON is better
02:25:30 <zzo38> For some kind of data, INI or JSON or RDF might also help to form such a data. By having a reasonable kind of XML representation of such a data then you can use XSL with it too, although the XML would not be the ordinary representation of the data
02:26:25 <zzo38> TeX supports varying syntax
02:27:02 <zzo38> It is good if you want to process it with TeX, but only TeX can properly parse it
02:27:59 <hppavilion[1]> Because multiple bodies on a tag, plus more TeX in properties (not just a string). That's why.
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02:29:16 <zzo38> It does not even require that they are in square brackets; other delimiters are also possible, such as a number terminated by a full stop, or text terminated by a paragraph break.
02:29:52 <hppavilion[1]> The second choice- after XML- was MAGMA: Minimal Architecture for Generalized Markup Applications
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02:36:55 <zzo38> I have written some codes in TeX and with that it is possible to see some example of how it can be done.
02:37:10 <zzo38> It can even include chess notations.
02:40:16 <hppavilion[1]> JSON is for numbers, strings, bools, maps from those to JSON, and arrays of JSON
02:40:25 <hppavilion[1]> XML is for text that has certain properties applied to subsegments
02:41:33 <zzo38> Yes that is how JSON and XML are good for.
02:42:58 <hppavilion[1]> JSON is fairly limited in scope, but XML isn't good for storing any kind of data other than text, really (because it doesn't syntactically support anything /but/ text and tags)
02:43:29 <zzo38> For even simpler data than JSON there is INI, and for a more complicated data there is RDF which is even extensible
02:44:09 <tswett> I wouldn't say that that's what XML is for.
02:44:23 <zzo38> (Of course there is also tab-separated values is another format)
02:44:35 <tswett> I'd say XML is for representing data in a way that's both human-readable and machine-readable.
02:44:45 <tswett> So it *can* be used to represent pretty much any kind of data.
02:44:50 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Yes, but the data it represents is only really good as text
02:45:02 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: You can represent non-textual data, but it isn't syntactically shown
02:45:13 <zzo38> tswett: Yes, although it isn't really very good for any purpose other than text markup I think
02:45:31 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: what's a type of non-textual data you're thinking of?
02:46:28 <tswett> I suppose. If you're applying XML to something related to integers, you'd probably just put the digits in there and call it good.
02:46:32 <zzo38> Yes, JSON does it more easily to write numbers (although it doesn't distinguish between integer and non-integer)
02:46:54 <tswett> <pixel red="0" green="32" blue="64"/>
02:47:18 <tswett> The problem there is that that XML doesn't indicate that the attributes there *have* to be integers.
02:47:19 <zzo38> In RDF there is representation for any type (and is extensible); the Turtle syntax has a reasonable way to represent both integer and fraction numbers
02:47:27 <tswett> That too. XML tends to be a lot more verbose than JSON.
02:48:36 <hppavilion[1]> JSON represents hashmaps and arrays, XML represents trees...
02:48:52 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: you know about YAML?
02:48:59 <zzo38> And, RDF represent directed graphs
02:49:25 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps a language that represents Rings/Groups/Etc would be nice?
02:50:21 <tswett> Haskell-like syntax is usually perfectly fine for representing mathematical stuff.
02:50:51 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What's a good data-y data structure not covered by those?
02:51:20 <tswett> Labeled directed graphs are sort of like the ultimate data structure.
02:51:36 <tswett> Though... I guess there are a lot of things that are "sort of like the ultimate data structure".
02:52:10 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Perhaps a strongly-typed language of some sort? One that forces you to obey a format to prevent errors?
02:52:54 <tswett> Strongly-Typed Data Language.
02:53:09 <tswett> Except call it something punchy. Not STDL.
02:53:44 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: The parser would reject the data completely if it doesn't match a strict, dependently-typed format and return None
02:54:47 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: But it would obviously have dependent types
02:55:04 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: ...leading to a second language which expresses the typing
02:56:24 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What data structures would it support by default? I'm thinking Maps, Objects (named tuples), Lists, Tuples, and Tagged Unions
02:56:30 <zzo38> Yes how are you going to do the ring/group/etc?
02:56:44 <tswett> Every data structure that is possible to define.
02:57:03 <tswett> Well, that's *one* data structure.
02:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> With Int, Real, Char, Bool, Top, and Void being the builtin scalar data types
02:57:52 <tswett> How about... the list.
02:58:03 <tswett> Everything else is just kind of a fancy list.
02:58:10 <tswett> As Lisp fans can tell you.
02:58:31 <tswett> A tuple is just a list with a specific length whose elements have specific types.
02:59:08 <tswett> A map is just a list whose elements are 2-tuples whose first elements are never duplicated, and whose order doesn't matter.
02:59:37 <tswett> What's your notation here?
03:00:07 <tswett> If $ denotes the end of the list, what is ] for?
03:00:38 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: $ force the list to end at a specific point
03:01:15 <tswett> Have a sort of property-based typing. Like...
03:01:20 <zzo38> With RDF it is possible to represent a looping list as well as an incomplete list
03:01:23 <tswett> The most basic type is, say, "thing".
03:01:41 <tswett> But you can make more complicated types. Like "list". And "list of integers".
03:01:53 <tswett> "list whose first element is equal to its third element"
03:02:13 <tswett> "list of integers, where each integer is greater than the last"
03:03:11 <tswett> Damn it, what have I gotten myself into? :D
03:03:25 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: OK, so the builtin type is "bits", which means "big hunk-o-bits" and the builtin structure is "list of these types"
03:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Ignore my previous 3 messages, the idea sucked
03:04:22 <tswett> So here's part of my idea.
03:04:54 <tswett> The basic type is, I guess, "thing".
03:05:09 <tswett> Now, if you have a "thing", then you don't know anything about it. And since you don't know anything about it, you can't do anything with it.
03:05:25 <hppavilion[1]> listOfIncreasingValues :: [Int] (a->0>a->1) forall a
03:06:17 <zzo38> Can't it be similar to a set of integers too?
03:06:19 <tswett> If you have a "list of things", now you know that it's a list, so you can do list stuff with it, like getting its length.
03:06:38 <tswett> And you can rearrange it, and stuff. But you can't really do anything with the individual things in it.
03:06:48 <tswett> And... that's how it all goes.
03:06:59 <tswett> By the way, let me see if I can whip something up.
03:07:22 <zzo38> But even in Haskell you can do stuff if you do not know the type of something, but the only way can be done is to match the same type variable such as if it is (x -> x) then you can use the same input as output type.
03:09:32 <tswett> data IncreasingList where { Empty :: IncreasingList; Cons :: (x :: Int) -> (xs :: IncreasingList) -> (case xs of { Empty -> (); (y:_) -> x < y }) -> IncreasingList }
03:09:51 <tswett> So... Haskell doesn't actually let you do that.
03:10:05 <tswett> But you can do something really similar in Coq.
03:10:18 <tswett> But don't ask me to; I don't remember the syntax.
03:10:35 <tswett> Anyway, the idea here is...
03:10:57 <tswett> "Increasing list of integers" can just be defined as a list of integers, which satisfies the predicate "is increasing".
03:11:36 <zzo38> What is if you have define a set and then you will make the sorted list from such set
03:12:11 <tswett> But an alternative is to sort of weave it into the definition of your list, so to speak.
03:12:41 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: see you later.
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03:44:42 <zzo38> I have implemented Black-Johansen in JavaScript now
03:46:05 <HackEgo> [U+130B8 EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH D052] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+130B9 EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH D052A] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+130BA EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH D053]
03:46:41 <zzo38> Do you know Egyptian writing?
03:46:59 <zzo38> shachaf: An algorithm for optimizing text encoding in Z-machine
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03:47:47 <zzo38> (The algorithm is made up by myself and by oerjan)
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03:52:10 <zzo38> The text is encoded as a series of 5-bit Z-characters, involving three shift states. Zero always represents a space; 1 and 2 and 3 are "frequent words"; 4 and 5 set the shift state, and 6 to 31 are emit the character. The initial shift state is 0, where 4 means temporary shift to state 1 and 5 means temporary shift to state 2. In state 1, 4 permanent shifts to 1 and 5 permanent shifts to 0. In state 2, 5 permanent shifts to 0 and 4 permanent shift
03:52:48 <zzo38> Each character has its own preferred shift state, for which it is part of that character set. In addition, Z-character 6 of state 2 means the next two Z-characters are interpreted as an ASCII code and it then emits an arbitrary ASCII character.
03:54:03 <zzo38> Infocom designed this but then presumably they did not figure out how to encode text in an efficient way using this, so they just omitted the use of permanent shifts and used only temporary shifts in their compiler.
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03:58:15 <zzo38> Shift state 0 contains lowercase letters, shift state 1 contains uppercase letters, while shift state 2 contains the ASCII escape, line break, followed by 0123456789.,!?_#'"/\-:()
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03:59:46 <zzo38> Possibly by this you can understand what strings [4,13,10,17,17,20,5,19,0,4,28,20,23,17,9,5,20] and [5,5,9,10,11,12,13,6,2,8,14,15,16,17,8] represent.
04:03:13 <lambdabot> Sum of proper divisors minus the number of proper divisors of n: a(n) = sigm...
04:03:32 <zzo38> They aren't any mathematical sequences; I described the encoding above
04:07:09 <zzo38> The second example above may be a bit silly but a better example of a text where Black-Johansen will encode more efficiently would be "Copyright (c) 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986 Infocom, Inc. All rights reserved." Using a permanent shift would encode the numbers much more efficiently than temporary shifts
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04:11:51 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Here's a piece of software that needs to be invented
04:13:37 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Also, Excel is a good example, but PowerPoint is a better one
04:13:56 <tswett> Excel can definitely be scripted.
04:14:16 <tswett> I'm pretty sure Word can be scripted.
04:14:39 <tswett> Well, you need to be able to use the scripting language.
04:15:01 <tswett> And it's not like it's a particularly bad language or anything.
04:15:31 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I'm thinking something like "Select word -> Right click -> Make Button", which opens an "Events" window
04:16:21 <tswett> Lots and lots of people have put lots and lots of effort into creating a programming system that can be used by people who don't already know programming.
04:17:31 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Because I kind of want to make a Free Software Online office suite
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04:19:31 <tswett> Fsoos. Nah, that's probably not a good name.
04:19:36 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: hey, let me ask you something.
04:19:43 <tswett> Do you want to start a project and see it through to completion?
04:20:00 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I even wrote a short essay on it for school at some point
04:20:28 <tswett> You'll get better at it.
04:21:40 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I'll go with Zodiac Office, because "Zodiac" is one of my stock names
04:22:12 <tswett> What sort of project do you think you might want to do?
04:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> I'll give the word processor the working name "VomitWordsOntoScreen"
04:23:10 <tswett> Many of the ideas you've described are the sort of thing a person may spend ten years on.
04:23:27 <tswett> Do you have any ideas that are, say, weekend-sized?
04:25:16 <hppavilion[1]> (on the topic of What If): Especially the diagram of wing shapes
04:27:38 <hppavilion[1]> I'll try making a tiny calculator with a Qt-based GUI
04:29:34 <tswett> That sounds like a good idea.
04:29:46 <hppavilion[1]> Prefix notation, because it's easier to parse AND nobody knows how to use it
04:30:49 <hppavilion[1]> All integers must be expressed in Dozenal, because it is clearly the superior system
04:45:03 * Sgeo has successfully written something similar to Haskell's reflection library in RUst:
04:45:04 <Sgeo> https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/3d7f8449ea5ba136038a9c677e744004
04:51:31 <zzo38> We will need the ability to manipulate the TV guide of the cable box by the use of SQL codes.
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05:02:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46761&oldid=46231 * 86.180.125.40 * (-2) /* Quine */
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05:33:58 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Assuming that all querying must be done in the language, and data produced cannot be filtered any more beyond that, but that you want a technically-usable DB
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06:55:15 <\oren\> the minimal database is usually implemented as "a folder full of CSV files"
06:55:28 <\oren\> or sometimes "full of JSON files"
06:56:31 <\oren\> in C, it is often "a file containing arbitrary fwritten structs"
06:59:11 <ais523> minimal database is also often implemented via using the filename to store the value of one field
06:59:18 <ais523> thus using the filesystem as a hash table
06:59:51 <ais523> but really, if you have nonrelational data, you can't do much better than a hash table for your database anyway
07:00:17 <ais523> it's relational queries that databases are very good at, that and situations where you can't fit the whole thing in memory or you need to handle power loss without data loss
07:02:59 <hppavilion[1]> [X-POST/r/name-of-this-subreddit] flag must be in title when reposting OC from this sub.
07:05:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46762&oldid=46440 * Kc kennylau * (+49) /* Interpreter */
07:07:41 <\oren\> AARGH why doesn't ksp have a "dump fuel" button
07:08:23 <\oren\> I need to fly in circles a bunch before I can land this damn thinf
07:08:56 <\oren\> either that or be really really good at flying
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07:59:49 <hppavilion[1]> I've invented a new buzzword-that-sounds-good-but-is-actually-horribly-awful
08:02:16 <hppavilion[1]> (It's in the same category as "Self-modifying code", "Java Applet", and "think outside the tesseract")
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08:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh. Forbes is evil because they block you if you have an adblocker.
08:07:47 <hppavilion[1]> I think that we should send some legalbabble to them referencing nonexistant legislation so they'll get rid of it
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08:20:35 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to (attempt to) read Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity
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11:58:53 <Taneb> Is brainfuck's overflow behaviour undefined in the C sense? That is, can a compiler optimize a program on the assumption that the program never over or underflows?
12:02:23 <int-e> I think it's implementation-defined, if you want to follow the C standard's terminology.
12:03:43 <int-e> Many implementations just use unsigned char cells. So +[+] will terminate. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants distinguished between "wrapping" and "non-wrapping"...
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12:05:55 <int-e> The closest we come to actual undefined behavior is the case of stepping off the tape to the left. (but the brainfuck interpreter on anagol has the source code immediately to the left of the data and many programs submitted there rely on that fact...)
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12:07:47 <int-e> And I believe that there are some implementations that have a two-sided unbounded tape.
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14:28:40 <lambdabot> CYQB 091300Z 31008KT 290V350 30SM SCT038 BKN076 M04/M11 A2972 RMK SC3AC2 SLP071
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14:59:04 <Taneb> int-e: I generally write implementations with a two-sided unbounded tape
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15:34:48 <FireFly> int-e: so anagol brainfuck is in principle self-modifying?
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15:44:13 <boily> there are quines. there are quine chains. are there pseudo-quine-chains that gradually evolve into an interpreter for the pseudo-quine-chain?
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16:04:02 <int-e> FireFly: yes it is
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19:56:21 <fizzie> Heathrow's (post-security) restaurant had the silliest knives I've ever seen.
19:56:54 <fizzie> They looked more like spoons than knives, the "pointy" end was entirely round.
19:57:07 <zzo38> What kind of food do they have?
19:57:09 <fizzie> Like a flat, narrow spoon.
19:57:34 <zzo38> Depending the kind of food it might be suitable, but it might not be suitable because in general that are no good you should need a proper metal knife
19:58:01 <fizzie> Just... British pub stuff. Burgers. Chicken breast. I think they might have something steak-like, but I'm not sure.
19:58:16 <fizzie> Could be they have real knives for special purposes.
20:01:52 <zzo38> I have been in a few British pub in Victoria, BC
20:06:10 <shachaf> I've been to a butterfly garden in Victoria, BC.
20:09:49 <Taneb> I've been to two British pubs in the past two days
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20:18:28 <b_jonas> Wow. In M:tG, the last ability of Skullbriar, the Walking Grave looks REALLY strange to me.
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20:30:32 <zzo38> Yes it does seem like strange, but can be worked.
20:35:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: I wonder if it could matter for that rule whether counters of the same name are distinguishable, but it doesn't seem so.
20:35:53 <zzo38> I think they are not distinguishable just multiples of the same name or different name
20:43:25 <b_jonas> I wonder why they didn't just make the ability such that it keeps the counters in the graveyard and stack but not in exile.
20:44:24 <b_jonas> Or maybe so taht it keeps the counters in the gravyard and stack and command zone, but not in exile.
20:45:37 <zzo38> If it loses that ability then it will not keep the counters
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20:50:34 <b_jonas> What was the way again to put a card into a library as a consequence of mana payment during a spell, that is, not at trigger speed?
20:51:32 <b_jonas> Not just reorder your library that is, but put something to a library from another zone.
20:52:28 <b_jonas> Ah yes, Darksteel Colossus or similar abilities.
20:59:12 <b_jonas> If I play a Jayemdae Tome and during playing, pay for it by sacrificing a Darksteel Colossus on Ashnod's Altar, and get unlucky with shuffling, can Jayemdae Tome cause me to try to draw the Colossus, which then doesn't do anything because it can't move?
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21:02:44 <hppavilion[1]> Have you guys heard that the US Congress is trying to ban citizens from using impossible-to-break encryption?
21:03:26 <zzo38> I have not heard of that, but would not be surprised of such thing
21:04:16 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I have a feeling it'll lead to a new field of cryptography
21:04:35 <hppavilion[1]> "Impossible-to-break, but doesn't see like it on the surface. Also, make a billion of these"
21:06:51 <Phantom_Hoover> in the uk it's already a crime to refuse to give an encryption key to the police
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21:07:26 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: What if you don't have the key because of the way things were set up?
21:07:48 <b_jonas> This guideline M:tG is using that any real-world mammal needs to have a narrow creature type approperiate for its species is crazy. They have tons of creature types for mammals that are used only on a few cards.
21:08:10 <Phantom_Hoover> but if you have some actual means of accessing the data then you're compelled to give that up
21:09:11 <b_jonas> Mole is the latest one. They can't just add a "rodent" type because there had been rats and since ancient times.
21:15:29 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a way to execute JS in-browser as a sandbox?
21:15:47 <hppavilion[1]> Essentially, to tell it "You may only use these functions as builtins"
21:16:12 <hppavilion[1]> Preferably (almost necessarily) where "these functions" can be a mix of builtins and custom functions?
21:17:02 <b_jonas> Ok, so now the rules don't specify any canonical way to determine which side of double-face card is the front face. This is horrible.
21:18:32 <b_jonas> And they're caught unaware by it too, just look at this: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=410049 shows the back face on the left side, unlike for most double-faced cards. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA HOIST BY THEIR OWN PETARD!
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21:31:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you try to download and save the Comprehensive rules from wizards.com , be VERY careful, because the url has the date typoed
21:32:05 <b_jonas> so after I downloaded, it didn't sort as if it were the latest version
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21:49:18 <zzo38> I am using the HTML version so don't need to download directly from Wizards of the Coast
21:50:59 <b_jonas> Correction. I was looking at the wrong version of the rules, because of this date thing, and the rules do specify which face is the front, by naming both styles of icons, but Westvale Abbey still seems buggy in Gatherer.
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22:16:40 <zzo38> It is possible in Node.js to execute a sandbox context but it is necessary to be careful by enabling strict mode and removing the default prototype of the sandbox context object as well as doing other stuff
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22:23:49 <zzo38> You should also define any function needed inside of the sandbox
22:24:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: and set memory limits and other stuff I guess
22:26:43 <zzo38> They recommend running untrusted code in a separate process, which would be needed in order to set memory limits and that stuff anyways
22:27:03 <zzo38> There is also vm.runInDebugContext although it does not document how the debug context is working
22:34:18 <zzo38> You can use Object.defineProperty in order to remove access to JavaScript built-ins, it looks like.
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23:08:08 <\oren\> if they ban strong encryption in the usa, then maybe the databases will move to canada or (trump forbid) mexico.
23:09:59 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ cat \ conscripts \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello2.c \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ UnicodeData.txt \ units.dat \ WordData
23:11:00 <oerjan> `` echo '<' | fueue src/brainfuck.fu
23:11:56 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/fueue
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23:15:02 <oerjan> `` echo '<' | fueue $(cat src/brainfuck.fu)
23:15:04 <HackEgo> Error: fueue received too many arguments. The Hello world program \ Hello, world!
23:15:33 <int-e> `` echo '<' | fueue "$(cat src/brainfuck.fu)"
23:16:10 <oerjan> i'm just not sure if i remember how bin/fueue takes its program.
23:16:26 <int-e> `` echo '+[+.]' | fueue "$(cat src/brainfuck.fu)"
23:16:51 <shachaf> `` echo '+[+.]' | fueue "$(cat src/brainfuck.fu)"
23:17:00 <shachaf> ok, that was the source of the beep
23:17:10 <oerjan> `` echo '<+[+.]' | fueue "$(cat src/brainfuck.fu)"
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23:17:19 <shachaf> please don't \a in public twh
23:17:22 <int-e> oh it beeps too? that must be annoying :P
23:17:55 <oerjan> shachaf: please don't use shitty clients in public twh
23:17:57 <int-e> it may be messing up colors in irssi, too, now that I look at it
23:18:16 <shachaf> oerjan: what's wrong with a client that supports notifications
23:18:42 <oerjan> shachaf: i dunno but i hear no beeps hth
23:18:48 <int-e> by default irssi can be fooled to some extent with control sequences starting with ^D (\004)
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23:19:53 <oerjan> anyway, all this was just because i didn't remember what i did with brainfuck.fu going left. seems i made it double-ended.
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23:21:33 <oerjan> i guess it was easier to just use two identical stacks for initial tape
23:22:45 <oerjan> <int-e> And I believe that there are some implementations that have a two-sided unbounded tape. <-- based on this
23:24:08 <oerjan> too bad ais523 isn't here.
23:25:42 <lambdabot> ENVA 092150Z 12007KT 9999 FEW040 01/M02 Q1016 RMK WIND 670FT 17003KT
23:25:43 <int-e> sshd[32006]: Connection closed by 5.103.65.96 [preauth] <--- fine, but what's the point of doing this once every minute?
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23:26:19 <oerjan> and here i nearly changed to my summer jacket the other day...
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23:27:42 <boily> I don't think I ever vesperally porthelloed ais523. it'd make a fine one: bonsais523r.
23:27:47 <lambdabot> CYQB 092200Z 31011G20KT 30SM SCT044 M02/M11 A2988 RMK SC3 PRESRR SLP125
23:27:51 <int-e> Perhaps something is rotten in the state of Denmark. [IP is assigned to an DK ISP]
23:28:18 <oerjan> <boily> there are quines. there are quine chains. are there pseudo-quine-chains that gradually evolve into an interpreter for the pseudo-quine-chain? <-- wat
23:30:50 <boily> you know about recursive quine chains, where a program output source in another language that output source in another language, etc... and then you get the original source?
23:31:33 <boily> what about pseudo-quine-chains, which approximatively get you the original source after a full loop, that you loop and loop and loop up until you get an interpreter to bootstrap the original loop.
23:32:18 <int-e> hm, same thing on another server, two different IPs there... Kuala Lumpur, and the Netherlands
23:33:07 <boily> time to go play some Dominion...
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23:33:44 <int-e> (some botnet for sure, but it still seems odd to scan ports that often... that's what I suppose this is, I'm too lazy to do a packet dump)
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00:18:36 <zzo38> I want to make up the computer operating system that you can use a Forth environment and a SSH client with double one time pad encryption; the pad data is stored in the computer but also on the external memory which must be XOR together, and then it is further encrypted with a password, and RAM scrambling and hardware security so that it is deleted if someone try to modify the program. The external memory must be attached to your body so that if s
00:20:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: that looks truncated
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00:20:36 <shachaf> Is double one time pad encryption where you xor with the one time pad twice, for extra security?
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00:25:24 <oerjan> shachaf: of course not, everyone knows that's the identity. you need to use sum instead of xor hth
00:28:22 * oerjan thinks math trolling may be too hard.
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00:29:42 <oerjan> oh and boily never mapoled me up there. i seem to flying high.
00:31:43 <shachaf> oerjan: obviously i meant you compute plaintext ^ pad and then you compute plaintext ^ pad a second time
00:32:54 <oerjan> well in that case you need it three times so you can do a proper error correction hth
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01:10:17 <zzo38> shachaf: No, double one time pad is when you use two separate pads
01:10:54 <zzo38> (Which can be combined into one by XOR operation, although it is called double because they are stored on separate memory)
01:11:09 <zzo38> If my message is truncated, to what point?
01:12:36 <zzo38> The external memory must be attached to your body so that if someone steal the computer, the external memory is broken.
01:13:16 <zzo38> (Some sort of error detection is also needed, in order to prevent someone from tampering with the data being sent across the network.)
01:15:25 <zzo38> Hopefully it can be understandable?
01:16:12 <b_jonas> I'm reminded to http://www.xkcd.com/538/
01:17:49 <zzo38> Since it is SSH with one time pad including external memory that can be broken, the police can hit you with a wrench and force you to tell them the password, but it will not be of any help to them. Next time you use it, the password will have been changed.
01:18:48 <b_jonas> don't forget the drugging part
01:19:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: and, like some people who device similar encryption schemes point out, even if the police can't access your data this way, it may cause the police to deliberately inconvenience you very seriously in other ways
01:20:15 <zzo38> All of the data is stored remotely anyways, so it won't help. The key will be destroyed by the time the data is accessed, and once the data is gone from the screen, the RAM is scrambled too so it cannot be recovered. This includes even if they try to install spyware on the computer, the remaining keys will go missing and the data is now no longer accessible anyways.
01:20:43 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that is still possible.
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01:21:00 <zzo38> Still I do not mean protection only from the police and government, but also from common thieves and so on, of course
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01:24:56 <zzo38> Of course it will not stop anyone from inconveniencing or killing you.
01:25:12 <zzo38> (But they can do that even if you do not own a computer.)
01:33:20 <zzo38> It also won't prevent local files from being accessed
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02:19:48 <HackEgo> sbus/SBus is the standard bus in many a Sun SPARC-based system, capable of coping with thirty-two (32) bits in parallel, at rates of around 16.67 to 25 MHz. There is a 96-pin connector, and the cards lay parallel to the motherboard, like toppings on a sandwich.
02:20:47 <boily> which was the most piniest connector in history?
02:21:40 <b_jonas> boily: maybe some of the modern CPU connections?
02:40:11 <boily> indeed. CPU sockets are piny.
02:40:18 <boily> (piny? pinny? pinnerous?)
02:41:00 <earendel> so sbus is somewhere between eisa and pci
02:42:08 <boily> b_jellonas. what about external connectors? centronix, maybe?
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03:26:47 <lambda-11235> Are there any esoteric statically typed languages?
03:27:38 <boily> hellombda-11235. I think Glass is statically typed.
03:28:46 <lambda-11235> I'm specifically thinking of an ML like language whose only datatype is a polymorphic function.
03:30:28 <lambda-11235> ML sans ADTs, functors, conditionals, ..., basicaly only function definitions.
03:47:14 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Do you have an issue with ST λ-calculus as the language of choice? It's a little eso
03:47:55 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: I'm trying to make a language for Nomicing
03:48:27 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: Lack of implementation and syntax.
03:49:25 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: I assume you're talking about System-F when you ST λ-calculus?
03:49:47 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Not sure. I've heard of ST λ, but I don't know which ones there are
03:50:45 <hppavilion[1]> "In contrast, systems which introduce polymorphic types (like System F)..."
03:51:27 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: I can probably hack together an interpreted statically-typed functional language
03:51:42 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: The problem is they use math notation, which is variable. ML is the closest I've seen to a strict syntax.
03:51:46 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: One with nothing but polymorphic functions
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03:54:25 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: Only functions, hold on I have an EBNF.
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03:59:07 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: http://lpaste.net/159372, python 3 would be fine.
04:01:08 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: OK, I don't know ML. I know a bit of haskell, but that's about it
04:01:17 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: I don't think I'll be able to help you. Sorry :/
04:01:24 <lambda-11235> So you don't have to write ((a -> a) -> a -> a) everytime.
04:02:18 <lambda-11235> No worries, I was going to write an interpreter myself, but I'm short on time right now.
04:20:33 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Not sure. I've heard of ST λ, but I don't know which ones there are <-- ST in this context usually doesn't mean "statically typed", but "simply typed", which is a particularly weak version without "real" polymorphism. afaiu system F is much easier to define data types in.
04:23:23 <oerjan> and ML uses hindley-milner, which is somewhere in between.
04:26:09 <shachaf> you obviously haven't heard of the seriously typed lambda calculus
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04:46:26 <zzo38> I am making the Z-machine assembler in JavaScript and I may need two documents; one document describing the input of the program and another document describing the API for writing extensions. What is some feature you might think this API might need to have (that I might not have thought of already)?
04:50:20 <zzo38> There are cases in JavaScript where I will want to use the >>= operator of Haskell
04:50:27 <zzo38> (on arrays mainly)
04:57:29 <zzo38> You could do it like this: function(ar,f){var out=[]; ar.forEach(x=>out.push.apply(out,f(x))); return out;}
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04:59:03 <zzo38> Is there a better way?
05:01:59 <zzo38> Possibly this way: (ar,f)=>ar.reduce((x,y)=>(x.push.apply(x,f(y)),x),[])
05:03:47 <zzo38> [].concat.apply([],ar.map(f))
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05:16:46 <zzo38> Now there is encodeText which encodes a full text using Black-Johansen, and encodeVocab which is used only for vocabulary words and acts like the ZWSTR instruction of Z-machine (it uses only temporary shifts, no "frequent words" codes, always pads with Z-character 5, and limits the output to a fixed length).
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05:36:52 <zzo38> "Is not the title of any book so far as I know" is not the title of any book so far as I know. But, do you know of any book with such title?
05:38:00 <shachaf> I know a book called "What is the name of this book?".
05:38:39 <HackEgo> 1005) <shachaf> "would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation" would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation
05:40:16 <zzo38> Are you going to make up such band?
05:44:34 <shachaf> "is zzo38's true name" is zzo38's true name
05:45:04 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that. I thought I should know my own name
05:46:20 <shachaf> http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/t__s__eliot/poems/15121
05:47:18 <coppro> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NIE4nqcLYQ
05:47:46 <zzo38> I also think I am not
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07:02:44 <zzo38> Do you know a card game "one poker"?
07:06:28 <zzo38> Each player gets two cards (face-down), and your opponent will know how many of your cards are higher than seven (ace is high). You play one card (opponent won't yet know if it is high or low), and then bet, and then expose the card you played and the highest card wins, except that a deuce beats an ace. After that they are discarded, the card you did not play is kept and you get one new card for the next hand.
07:07:17 <zzo38> You then again must tell to your opponent how many of your two cards now are higher than seven, and do same thing again as before (you can play either the new card or the card you kept from before).
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07:55:42 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Were you the one who designed predicate nomic?
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11:06:34 <mroman> Does any of you guys know a free webmail provider for anonymous e-mail accounts?
11:06:53 <mroman> and by anonymous I just mean that I don't have to verify my identity by providing a postal address or mobile phone number
11:07:43 <gamemanj> I don't think I've ever had to provide a postal address or mobile phone number... There was that time Hotmail made it really hard to see the "ignore this nonsense and let me get into my email account" link, though.
11:08:04 <mroman> google requires a real name
11:08:20 <mroman> if you provide fake details you risk that they delete your account
11:09:26 <mroman> and lying is actually probably a crime
11:09:58 <gamemanj> anyway, do you really think they'd suspect John Apley of not being a person?
11:10:09 <gamemanj> (Who is John Apley? IDK. That's the point.)
11:11:04 <gamemanj> (Unless John Apley is a real name that I picked up from somewhere and never realized. Hmm.)
11:13:33 <Taneb> I've never met anyone by the name of Apley
11:13:57 <gamemanj> Good! Basically, there are multiple solutions to the problem. Solution 1 is "you don't seriously believe people actually check for fake names, do you?". Solution 2 is to go find a provider, and presumably one that won't spy on your emails,
11:14:36 <gamemanj> Solution 3 is just to setup SMTP & POP3 on a server and hope you never talk to anyone using Hotmail (they completely reject anything from a dynamic IP address).
11:18:48 <mroman> if you get an email from apleyjohn@gmail.com that'll be me :D
11:19:12 <gamemanj> Yay! Now I have to go advance my Fake Name Calendar.
11:19:20 * gamemanj flips over a sheet and gets out a pen
11:19:27 <mroman> gamemanj: pretty much all E-Mail providers reject e-mails from a server you just set up at home :D
11:19:41 <gamemanj> But it does put it in the Spam folder.
11:19:58 <mroman> you need an mx entry for sure
11:20:01 <gamemanj> And all my tests have been after sending an email from GMail to the account first so it counts as "solicited".
11:20:22 <gamemanj> Aha, the good old "you need an MX entry" myth. Nope, MX is just an optional redirect.
11:20:42 <mroman> if you send something with FROM: foo@bla.ch
11:20:45 <gamemanj> Feel free to email me at gamemanj@gamemanj.duckdns.org.
11:20:58 <mroman> they will make a reverse lookup for bla.ch, check if you have an mx record
11:21:11 <mroman> and check if the src ip matches the one of the mx entry
11:24:26 <gamemanj> In theory, I'd agree with you - in practice, I did tests. It does go into the Spam folder, but emails to and from the server do work.
11:37:25 <deltab> if the MX query fails, it should do an A query
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11:46:08 <int-e> but having their emails delivered to the recipient's spam folder isn't what most people want from a mail server.
11:47:46 <gamemanj> int-e: I considered that, but would the emails from an "anonymous email account provider" reach the inbox, either?
11:49:03 <int-e> No, probably not... but for different reasons (they're bound to have trouble with abuse management and then end up in spam filters simply because a lot of spam originates there...)
11:51:30 <gamemanj> Different reasons, but the same result. Again, there is still a problem with Solution 3, which is that if you're using a dynamic IP Hotmail will reject anything you send.
11:53:33 <gamemanj> (Hence it's the last solution and not the second or first - there are problems with running your own email server, but if you can't find an email provider that meets your requirements, aka. solutions 1 and 2, what do you do?)
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13:53:02 <Taneb> Ugh, panicked revision
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14:24:35 <rdococ> anyways, why is the time dimension negative and not division?
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14:44:00 * boily lightly mapoles rdococ
14:44:13 <boily> *thwack thwack thwack*
14:44:21 <boily> Tanelle. he seems to have gone catatonic.
14:44:42 <boily> *thwack thwack* *thwack* *thwackitty thwack*
14:46:04 <boily> what do you mean, by negative time?
15:05:34 <boily> hmm... not exactly alive.
15:05:49 * boily shakes rdococ “NEGATIVE TIME! NEGATIVE TIME!”
15:07:55 <gamemanj> boily: He means: "The universe has no end, though it does have a beginning. --- Infinite." (Ok, probably not. I'm literally reading that off of the front of a random book.)
15:08:24 <rdococ> a flying spaghetti monster wanted to make us
15:08:55 <rdococ> Sending you to time coordinates (Error: space is relative
15:09:29 <gamemanj> (...I wonder why people keep referring to flying spaghetti monsters? It doesn't happen that often, but it's interesting that it's still relatively common...)
15:09:52 <rdococ> (I believe it's a religion made up to show how dumb the creator believes religions are)
15:12:29 <boily> may you be touched by His Noodly Appendage. Ramen.
15:14:32 <gamemanj> (note to self: it is a good thing I don't eat pot noodles as it would probably be offensive to <Unknown Classifier, ID 28374/9>)
15:15:28 <boily> you have to up your pasta game. fresh noodles, homemade stock and broth, freshly braised cuts of meats...
15:16:07 <boily> . o O ( some nori on the side, ajitsuke tamago, corn... *drool*... )
15:17:26 <gamemanj> (note to self: research the proper name instead of referring to <Unknown Classifier, ID 28374/9> as an Unknown Classifier indexed by a numeric-keyboard-mash ID)
15:19:09 <deltab> http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/ORTHOGONAL/00/PM.html
15:20:14 <gamemanj> boily: Unfortunately, an object in the system with String ID "index$EXPUNGED" also exists. It has links to IDs: "SCP Foundation" "Annoyances" "Things To Use To Annoy People"
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15:21:20 <gamemanj> (How to annoy anyone who actually wants to be able to read something: hide all your [EXPUNGED] in [NEED O5 LEVEL] and [REMOVED] your [DELETED])
15:25:34 <rdococ> ([REDACTED]! gamemanj's [DELETED] [PURGED] me [Content de-Error
15:27:48 <gamemanj> Wait, what on eart-[{yield uses up UNKNOWN instructions of the next frame.} if @yieldOk then @finalReturn else @yieldFail; @finalReturn; @yieldOk = @id+0; { false } );
15:27:57 <rdococ> IRC [redacted] [Expunged] [Content de-Error
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15:29:15 <gamemanj> Maybe it's because of the Ctrl-Ks? [import_spr @bank_video bkg 0 0 256 256 65536;]
15:29:23 <rdococ> (Best way to troll someone: alϕwЀaϚyЂsКШϹψγήΖΎΥ
15:31:01 <gamemanj> (rdococ: I'm just copying random stuff that only makes sense with a very long description.)
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15:31:40 <gamemanj> it would've been orange if it was real
15:32:44 <rdococ> what does my nick show as?
15:32:57 <boily> rdococ: you are blue.
15:33:18 <rdococ> or you changed color scheme
15:33:44 <rdococ> my yellow is actually easy to read
15:34:11 <rdococ> if you don't need to highlight this to read it, you probably have HexChat
15:34:42 <rdococ> I love HexChat because of these conveniences
15:37:49 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/dMppSnF.png
15:39:24 <gamemanj> italic text: the new way to annoy people with pixel perfect fonts
15:39:57 <gamemanj> ^ shorter and not-italic version for izabera: "Italic Text: Do not use it"
15:40:47 <boily> http://imgur.com/nPyVhOf
15:41:17 <izabera> your color scheme is awful
15:41:34 <gamemanj> Ok, so Boily doesn't get italics, Izabera doesn't want them, and I'm capitalizing names and am probably going to be shouted at for it.
15:41:53 <boily> it's Ubuntu's default and/or approximatively default colourscheme.
15:44:28 <myname> i can read the yellow text just fine incirssi
15:47:25 <gamemanj> using incredibly specially formatted text, such as capital letters, quotes, numerics, italics, bold, underline, pixel art, ascii art, embedded message fonts, buffer allocation ctcps, shader execution ctcps, and other potentially performance and experience degrading symbols and mechanisms, is not a good idea.
15:51:26 <boily> shaders? for 2D monospace text?
15:51:42 <gamemanj> boily: you actually read that?
15:53:44 <gamemanj> (if you thought that was supposed to make sense, recall the bit about capital letters and quotes, then reconsider.)
15:57:34 <boily> it's text. it's meant to be read. if push come to shove, it'll make the quotes. or become fungot fodder. mwah ah ah ah.
15:57:35 <fungot> boily: the two french initiatives intended to better combat illegal immigration and the trafficking of women is flourishing. in the irish constitution which, fortunately, has been ratified within a year? the commission is calling for more resources, more employees and more powers but, all this is related to the notorious ' small steps forward must be accepted in these discussions several rather abolitionist associations have tr
15:58:21 <gamemanj> ...I wondered where that befunge-nomming quote-eating markovian madman went!
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16:48:55 <zzo38> For email you could use your ISP smarthost for senting and to avoid the problem to be rejected by dynamic addresses; you can set a SMTP server to receive though
16:50:47 <gamemanj> For me at least, receiving's fine. It's sending that's the problem. Question: What's an "ISP smarthost"?
16:53:12 <zzo38> At least if you set up Exim it will ask you to use a "smarthost" which means that you will send through your ISP's SMTP
16:54:23 <gamemanj> Things I searched for involving mail relay by the ISP seem to revolve around business.
16:54:51 <gamemanj> If I was a business, however, I wouldn't have any problems in the first place, as I'd have a static IP.
16:56:03 <oerjan> <rdococ> but it's 3m-2s??? <-- where did you hear such a ridiculous thing twh
16:56:30 <oerjan> or are you confusing with minkowski space.
16:56:52 <oerjan> in which case it's not negative, but imaginary, and you don't add different coordinates like that.
16:58:20 <oerjan> you do something like sqrt((2s)^2 - (3m)^2) with some c's thrown in to make the units match.
16:58:57 <oerjan> and the result is the time elapsed as experienced by the moving object.
16:59:33 <zzo38> gamemanj: Can't you have a email account by your ISP though?
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17:00:41 <oerjan> you can also do the same thing with energy and momentum, in which case you get the rest mass.
17:01:54 <gamemanj> zzo38: Not that I know of, and besides, that would just be (accountname)@(theirdomain), not gamemanj@gamemanj.duckdns.org (TODO: maybe get <firstname><lastinitial>.co.uk)
17:01:58 * oerjan swats himself for adding the redundant "rest" -----###
17:05:51 <gamemanj> zzo38: Since it's on dynamic dns, and said dynamic DNS is pretty primitive (A record only. Not even IPv6...), I also don't get to change the MX record, and then there's making any workaround forwarding support SSL, so any forwarding would involve lots of stunnel and lots of prayer.
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17:07:21 <zzo38> You could set the return address to your own domain name and don't have to be the account from ISP
17:08:03 <zzo38> Although do you need SSL support with it? Probably it doesn't need; the message can be encrypted separately anyways
17:09:14 <gamemanj> zzo38: Well, no requirement for SSL, but it's a nice bonus. Anyway, AFAIK there's no magical mail forwarding address I could send stuff to for bypassing the dynamic IP restriction, such a thing would be tantamount to an open relay anyway.
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17:09:51 <gamemanj> zzo38: It's only really a problem if interacting with Hotmail accounts. And since I haven't actually used the mail server for anything major yet, it's not really a problem.
17:10:09 <zzo38> At least in ISP I am using, there is a SMTP server which is only available when connected from within the ISP's network
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17:11:05 <gamemanj> zzo38: Yes, but the thing is, that SMTP server probably won't accept messages with arbitrary From: addresses.
17:12:05 <zzo38> For me it works, and even if it doesn't you could put the proper address in the MIME header instead
17:13:06 <gamemanj> That's pretty close to an open relay.
17:13:18 <gamemanj> I guess if it's within the ISP's network, they can track abuse, though.
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17:18:08 <oerjan> <boily> . o O ( some nori on the side, ajitsuke tamago, corn... *drool*... ) <-- . o O ( when will boily drop out of programming and start his own restaurant... )
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17:23:35 <gamemanj> <boily> [Long quote, see above.] ajitsuke tamago [more quote] <-- . o O ( What's ajitsuke tamago? Is it a just-in-time version of some sort of programming language? )
17:24:31 <boily> oerjan: seriously, I often think about having my own café when I go to sleep. a little bit too often. it's disturbing.
17:24:33 <gamemanj> (Google Translate gives "Seasoned egg.", but I have a hunch it's not that simple, or boily would have just typed "Seasoned egg"... )
17:24:35 <oerjan> aka "ramen egg", apparently.
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17:25:21 <boily> gamemanj: it's a half-boiled egg you soak in marinade. the Chinese have their variant tea-egg. both are quite similar.
17:26:00 <gamemanj> boily: Thanks for informing me. Now I have proof my remote dream injection system works! I will make millions!
17:26:22 <gamemanj> ...and then be forced to pay oerjan most of it in patent licencing fees.
17:26:29 <oerjan> boily: i smell a True Dream hth
17:28:13 <boily> I'll stick with my regular gig for the moment htah.
17:28:56 <oerjan> gamemanj: hey, stop ruining my spiritual coaching twh
17:29:42 * boily thwacks gamemanj “you have to ask an accredited evil laugher first before cackling evilly”
17:30:13 <gamemanj> You mean oerjan is an accredited evil laugher?
17:30:23 <gamemanj> Or are you just discriminating on who you thwack?
17:30:34 <oerjan> i have a grandfather clause hth
17:31:15 <gamemanj> Fine. I won't evilly laugh without oerjan's permission...
17:32:12 <boily> gamemanj: mwah ah ah ^^
17:32:12 * gamemanj turns HackEgo's large and highly visible clockwork screw
17:34:32 <gamemanj> so far we have determined that HackEgo has a crank and a clockwork screw, and turning both made it/him/her/[this entry reserved for future expansion] work once.
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17:40:19 <b_jonas> fungot, does HackEgo really have and clockwork screw? I assumed it was a Frankenstein's Monster kind of screw instead.
17:40:19 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, many other people are more likely to paralyse growth and employment: improving quality and sustainability ( com(2000) 888 fnord/ 2001)
17:41:09 <b_jonas> fungot, is that like http://www.xkcd.com/1007/
17:41:10 <fungot> b_jonas: madam president, if you will allow me, madam president, firstly i should like to close with a short quotation by george bernard shaw, who said to me: ‘i hear that you have suggested.
17:41:24 <gamemanj> Ok, what on earth happened to fungot!?!?!
17:41:25 <fungot> gamemanj: mr president, mr rübig, half a million of our fellow citizens before the elections, it is 100 years since the soviet invasion saw a country that has traditionally opposed the big countries to have higher salaries? in its present form, where we hurried to apply measures concerning quality, traceability, market monitoring, the promotion and strengthening of controls. it would provide more adequate answers for europe.
17:41:42 <b_jonas> gamemanj: what do you maen? he seems all right to me.
17:41:47 <b_jonas> at least as all right as he usually is
17:41:58 <gamemanj> b_jonas: "mr president" this, "madam president" that
17:42:03 <Taneb> Is this the europarl corpus
17:42:16 <fungot> gamemanj: mr president, and mandela was and remains convinced of the importance of this service will soon be as many sign languages as there are still differences in the field to the programme: ' i know that the dialogue between the two sexes. it is then that we are making very good headway in research and development, the legal basis before implementing any community expenditure. as your rapporteur is of the opinion of the com
17:42:38 <gamemanj> See? It's locked to stuff about a president.
17:43:47 <oerjan> gamemanj: have you not been introduced to ^style twh
17:43:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:43:56 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
17:44:37 <fungot> gamemanj: mr president, having talked about bulgaria, which are not reliable. so what solutions do we have to make a start on the annual budget of the european parliament at the conference in kyoto, it may seem paradoxical to say the least. it was the wish to encourage, to continue to count on the expertise already available in the commission' s initiative to create jobs.
17:44:46 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
17:45:15 <Kaynato> What algorithm is behind fungot?
17:45:15 <fungot> Kaynato: and, dab, words like pop-culture should use the binary level, then i say lo, world!
17:45:25 <gamemanj> Kaynato: Think it's supposed to be based on markov chains
17:45:40 <Kaynato> Hm, I suppose. char-rnn is always a pretty fun thing though
17:46:15 <gamemanj> Good news is it's on GitHub. https://github.com/fis/fungot Just have fun trying to understand the code...
17:46:15 <fungot> gamemanj: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
17:48:01 <oerjan> Kaynato: variable length word-based markov chains
17:49:03 <gamemanj> (Strings written backwards, toggle switches, values placed on stack to be discarded at a conditional which I can't understand since I don't understand lunar runes inscribed upon tablets...)
17:49:19 <gamemanj> (It's like BytePusher files in hex editors, but worse.)
17:51:25 <gamemanj> (Huh. I started thinking I understood the general structure for a second. Then I saw the privmsg handling and realized only one thing - that I knew nothing.)
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17:55:54 <gamemanj> (After some reflection, I guess the code is nicer than the theoretically most complicated and evil Befunge code possible.)
18:03:21 <b_jonas> What's wrong with backwards strings? Befunge can have strings in all four cardinal directions.
18:03:51 <b_jonas> Some befunge variants can probably have strings with any delta.
18:04:03 <gamemanj> Well, technically in terms of what is acceptable to a Befunge interpreter "wrong"? Nothing. In terms of what's sane, however...
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18:44:53 <izabera> the awkward moment when the alphago paper is written in word instead of latex
18:45:30 <gamemanj> maybe people should just write papers in Markdown
18:46:11 <gamemanj> that way, it's easily converted to whatever it's needed in
18:48:34 <zzo38> I just use Plain TeX and convert to DVI for printout
18:48:49 <zzo38> (Although troff can also output to DVI)
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18:52:28 <gamemanj> \footline={\hfil Produced by Blah Corporation. \folio} Yay for Plain \TeX !\par It's very useful\footnote{$^1$}{If you know the commands.}!
18:52:46 <gamemanj> (Note: The above is untested.)
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18:57:24 <b_jonas> izabera: you know, writing papers in word isn't such a stupid idea these days than it used to be ten years ago when people started to hate that kind of thing. especially not for non-maths papers.
18:59:14 <b_jonas> izabera: part of the problem was always that the people who wrote papers in word were the kind of people who didn't know how to write papers in word either
18:59:22 <b_jonas> (and that's still part of the problem)
19:00:55 <b_jonas> very rarely, you can see really badly formatted papers written in LaTeX too. you know, ones with less than signs instead of angle brackets like < a|b + c >=< a|b > + < a|c > and even more horrible things that I can't even approximate in ascii
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19:16:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck minus -]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46763 * Keymaker * (+12441) Showing that brainfuck is Turing-complete without '-'. Also includes a B-machine translator.
19:16:38 <myname> sounds like a trivial proof
19:16:52 <myname> replace - with 255 +, done
19:17:40 <myname> well, in this case translate your program into bounded bf first :p
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19:18:59 <gamemanj> ...turing-complete without '+'? doesn't that mean that for [ purposes, brainfuck memory is like PROM - write once, read always, but never write again...
19:19:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck derivatives with nontrivial computational class proofs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46764&oldid=46698 * Keymaker * (+166) Linked BM-.
19:22:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46765&oldid=46653 * Keymaker * (+157) Mentioned BM-.
19:23:07 <zzo38> Wang B-machine does not allow marks on the tape to be modified or erased once they are written, although it is possible to write additional marks on other positions on the tape
19:24:12 <zzo38> Yet it is still Turing-complete
19:24:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, but brainfuck is more restricted in its control structures
19:25:06 <myname> how is it important to have unbounded cells if you only set them to 1
19:25:45 <b_jonas> myname: because you don't have convenient control structures to increase the cell only if it's not zero?
19:26:31 <b_jonas> hehe, “this is not a brainfuck derivative, this is merely a way for programming brainfuck without using '-'” – he's trying hard to rationalize it
19:27:08 <gamemanj> myname: the point of using unbounded cells is that 255 + is basically just '-' anyway, so it's cheating.
19:27:55 <b_jonas> gamemanj: um, modulo and unbounded aren't the only alternatives. there's also just raising an error if you go outside the range.
19:29:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wang program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46766&oldid=41258 * Keymaker * (+239) Linked BM-.
19:29:13 <gamemanj> b_jonas: "The Brainfuck program that we use to control the dinosaur entry prevention mechanism is running...! ... BOUNDED CELL FAULT" would be a very evil ending to a book.
19:31:25 <myname> not more evil than "oh my got an overflow"
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19:34:33 <gamemanj> A note: if '+' is run only once for a given cell anyway, the code is probably valid Boolfuck too.
19:36:57 <gamemanj> ...and if you replace '+' with * it's also valid Smallfuck...
19:37:42 <myname> it may be valid in a lot of bf derivates
19:37:52 <myname> that's part of why they suck
19:38:20 <myname> every clear subset does not deserve the name derivate anyways
19:40:17 <gamemanj> Huh. Apparently Smallfuck has limited data storage, though it doesn't actually say how much - it's implementation-dependent. So, nvm.
19:44:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck derivatives with nontrivial computational class proofs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46767&oldid=46764 * Keymaker * (+25) Mentioned non-wrapping cells.
19:50:33 <gamemanj> I just read the topic and saw the "kitten typesetting" line... and how exactly does one typeset a kitten?
19:51:42 <zzo38> You load kittens into a typewriter, destroying both.
19:52:06 <zzo38> Yes I know, and that is why you should not do that
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19:53:32 <b_jonas> heh, gamemanj is like the third person who asks about kitten typesetting. it was well worth keeping it in the topic.
19:54:28 <gamemanj> remember: when doing a /join, even if you knew what the topic was like from months ago, that's no excuse, read it again.
19:55:37 <gamemanj> Because topics are abstract strings stored by an IRC server for goodness knows how long, and they can change when you're not looking. (And also when you are looking.)
19:56:47 <gamemanj> That is, they're not carved into stones delivered upon to us by the Deities Of Esotericism.
19:57:15 <gamemanj> So, they have a tendency to change, and thus, you should observe them.
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20:02:16 <b_jonas> gamemanj: yeah. eg. it says California now. It used to say Budapest.
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20:17:15 <gamemanj> Hmm. Should I make a random and mostly unrelated comment about kittens or about typesetting?
20:19:24 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to write a parser for a WS-sensitive language using PLY
20:19:37 <zzo38> gamemanj: If you want to do so? I don't know?
20:19:42 <hppavilion[1]> I'm honestly considering parsing the language in Node and sending it over to Python
20:20:08 <gamemanj> zzo38: I was referring to "which of the two would be preferable" :)
20:20:31 <zzo38> I have no preferences
20:21:17 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I think it would probably be better to just use one or other, if possible, rather than having to write one program using both
20:21:39 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yeah, but I don't know Node and PLY is a pain in the ass for this kind of language
20:26:00 <zzo38> If you have the newest version of SmileBASIC, can you tell me if you can get it to work with QR codes and/or tape loading/saving?
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20:53:35 <Kaynato> http://i.imgur.com/gY5bRZC.png
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21:03:57 <myname> https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
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22:25:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF Joust]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46768&oldid=46505 * Iconmaster * (+4) fixed the link to my horrible GML creation
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23:23:09 <oerjan> @tell gamemanj <gamemanj> Well, technically in terms of what is acceptable to a Befunge interpreter "wrong"? Nothing. In terms of what's sane, however... <-- afaiu backwards strings are common in befunge because it's simply the easiest to handle.
23:29:40 <int-e> ah darn, box-256 got an update... need to fight urge to have a look...
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23:35:03 <int-e> still runs in wine
23:35:20 <int-e> anyway that's how I've been running it so far
23:36:59 <Kaynato> Is anyone here good with SWI-prolog?
23:37:05 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: does that surprise you?
23:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> well it was requested by myself and someone else at least, though in different ways
23:38:02 <oerjan> Kaynato: i've peeked at the manual once, does that count? :P
23:38:34 * oerjan may also have downloaded it, but never got to write anything of note.
23:38:38 <Kaynato> Ah, I mean - I'm trying to solve a logic problem specifically with SWI-prolog, and I know the answer - however, Prolog is giving me the wrong answer even though I seem to be giving it the correct declarations
23:39:08 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: I thought it hit a remarkably sweet spot if you treat it as a puzzle, with its crazy memory model and the vectored jump
23:39:15 <oerjan> are you using any fancy stuff
23:40:00 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, that's fair enough but i was interested in it as an assembly programming toy
23:40:27 <oerjan> i said "pastebin" to discourage long pastes in channel hth
23:40:27 <int-e> perhas you should just find a gpu to program ;)
23:41:05 <int-e> put pasta tastes good
23:41:15 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Oooh, I just had the idea for a Numpy-based CPPU
23:41:25 <Phantom_Hoover> the jump vectoring was cute and all but i think programming this thing would be much richer if you could write single subroutines to be executed by different threads at once
23:41:34 <int-e> hmm, funny typo... "perhas"
23:41:36 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of individual registers/memory locations, it has NxN arrays of some fixed size (maybe 4x4)
23:41:39 <Phantom_Hoover> rather than trying to pack as many duplicate instructions in as possible
23:41:46 <oerjan> int-e: in theory. i had spaghetti carbonara today and i think the bacon was a bit sour.
23:42:10 <int-e> though I'd like to point out that this wasn't the pasta's fault, really
23:42:33 <hppavilion[1]> There would be vectorized versions of all instructions
23:42:57 <hppavilion[1]> Which is a JMP to multiple locations, based on the matrix
23:44:40 <Kaynato> ...oh, actually I've fixed it
23:44:54 <int-e> sort of... e.g. int pthread_create(pthread_t *thread, const pthread_attr_t *attr, void *(*start_routine) (void *), void *arg); <-- note the sart_routine argument. but also note the new stack.
23:45:29 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: How does it work on the CPU level?
23:45:30 <int-e> no new stack there... I'm mixing something up here, sorry.
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23:46:10 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], afaiu, partly through context switching on individual cores and partly through running each thread's code simultaneously on different cores
23:46:29 <int-e> you just have n CPUs working concurrently; it's the OS's task to give them work to do, i.e. to schedule threads.
23:47:37 <oerjan> there's also interrupts to give the OS a chance to switch context from a thread...
23:48:18 * int-e is oversimplifying of course
23:48:56 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, the OS handles the context switching and core assignment obv.
23:49:19 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well yes, but there needs to be a basic mechanism for preempting a running thread
23:49:25 <oerjan> (unless you go all cooperative)
23:49:48 <Phantom_Hoover> interrupts are just the way context switching is implemented, is what i'm saying
23:50:06 <int-e> (the n there may change over the runtime of the system these days... and the CPUs may not even be equal... it's becoming messier and messier especially on mobile devices)
23:50:12 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how threading is implemented in linux on a syscall level...
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23:51:11 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], the upshot is that threading doesn't have the direct relationship to multicore CPUs that you might at first think
23:52:01 <Phantom_Hoover> if you have a bunch of threads in the same process the OS might decide to run them all on the one core, for instance
23:52:10 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: "One use of clone() is to implement threads..." ... the clone system call allows you to just specify a new stack and function to execute, without duplicating the rest of the process state
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23:54:33 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: so what else is there... futex for synchronisation, tgkill() for signaling threads ... now I'm wondering how threads die...
23:56:21 <oerjan> . o O ( they wander off to the thread graveyard )
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23:59:05 <Phantom_Hoover> god damn the sierpinski one makes me wish i had bitwise ops
00:00:02 <int-e> Okay, there's an exit syscall. man 2 exit isn't too helpful about it on my system...
00:01:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i think _start eventually boils down to exit(main(argc, argv))
00:01:11 <int-e> no, there's exit_group for that.
00:02:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "The function _exit() terminates the calling process[...]"
00:02:24 <int-e> (libc function names do not always correspond to syscall names)
00:02:52 <int-e> look under C library/kernel differences
00:03:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i just looked closer at clone(2) and yeah, i guess since threads would be individual processes that'd only kill the current thread
00:11:36 <int-e> hmm of course sierpinsky is perfect for 56 threads and 9 cycles...
00:13:35 <int-e> ah the leaderboard is confused... the 0x05 should be lines of code
00:17:47 <Kaynato> Apparently I was wrong and everything is actually more severely wrong now
00:17:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The _Exit function doesn't actually map to the exit syscall, though.
00:18:55 <pikhq> Ah, which mentions that. :)
00:19:35 <pikhq> Yeah, the kernel level notion of "process" is more "a schedulable entity" which may or may not map to a Unix "process". So you get a few weird things like that in the syscall layer.
00:20:53 <pikhq> Probably the worst thing is that setuid etc. is a *god damned pain* to do correctly, because there's not a way of telling Linux to do it atomically across all threads in a process.
00:21:07 <Kaynato> http://pastebin.com/PnRYcK9L
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00:34:46 <int-e> as claimed, 0x09 cycles sierpinski... http://sprunge.us/BEba
00:35:36 <int-e> (hmm, I could save a thread...)
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00:47:27 <lambda-11235> Ok, I did some thinking and came up with a more succinct language, https://notehub.org/mvig3.
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00:53:26 <zzo38> I found a book describing the original IBM PC hardware including the full BIOS code, instruction set, and schematic diagrams.
00:55:31 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, it's this kind of shit that makes me hate THR!!
00:56:33 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: you must really loathe my 15 cycles checkerboard then :P
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01:07:56 <impomatic> Nice work on the Sierpinski int-e :-)
01:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> impomatic, that mario program is the kind of outrage that has provoked inquisitions
01:09:29 <int-e> I wonder whether my 5 lines sierpinski is the same as yours... will find out in a moment...
01:10:31 <int-e> it'll take almost 0x4000 cycles, ouch
01:14:42 <impomatic> int-e: 5 line Sierpinski 0x4FC cycles
01:25:14 <int-e> okay, mine is 4 lines :)
01:26:52 <int-e> that box-256 thing
01:27:20 <int-e> and with that odd LOC counting that ignores empty lines
01:27:41 <int-e> though, hmm, that's not essential anymore...
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01:30:34 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/KDYB
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01:33:53 <impomatic> Hmmm... I should've thought of that!
01:37:30 <int-e> in fact, wth... I've spent enough time on this to put it on github... https://github.com/int-e/box256
01:42:34 <impomatic> Some of mine are on Github https://github.com/impomatic/BOX256
01:43:51 <int-e> ah but at least our basic idea is the same :)
01:46:14 <int-e> (though I somehow failed to make the forward iteration work)
01:56:00 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Individual token notes should have the tokens in monospace
01:58:29 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Like "-> is right associative, so a -> b -> c = a -> (b -> c). a -> b always has type *."
02:01:04 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: Better? https://notehub.org/mvig3
02:02:06 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: No; that's literally the exact same page, but I'm really just nitpicking
02:02:34 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: If recursive functions are banned, and functions can only use their predecessor-defined functions, doesn't that make it a BSM?
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02:03:57 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: A TM with finite memory; FSM-complete
02:04:28 <int-e> linear bounded automaton... how many names does this thing have?
02:08:28 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: I don't think so. An FSM could loop forever. This language can't.
02:09:56 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Also, for a finite string of length 3-5, 12355928
02:11:07 * int-e is not really paying attention
02:12:21 <lambda-11235> Recursive functions are banned to garauntee totality, a property of any typed lambda calculus that doesn't have the fix point function.
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02:19:22 <oerjan> nonterminating functions can still be immensely more powerful than linear bounded. i recall we found previously that system F can implement goodstein sequences.
02:19:42 <oerjan> although this seemed like a different system - dependent but not polymorphic?
02:20:02 <oerjan> or wait, s/polymorphic/higher rank/
02:21:08 <oerjan> (goodstein sequences, fwiw, cannot be proved to terminate in peano arithmetic)
02:21:24 <oerjan> s/nonterminating/terminating/, sheesh
02:22:30 <oerjan> was it impomatic who wrote that up in restricted haskell
02:23:06 <oerjan> hm who am i confusing you with
02:24:14 <oerjan> (haskell using rank-n extension but no recursion, so equivalent to system F)
02:27:54 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: There. I wrote a program to generate all possible names for a LBA
02:29:00 * oerjan keeps getting the impression that google only knows a fraction of our logs
02:29:33 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: BTW, do you remember who it was that made Predicate Nomic?
02:29:49 <oerjan> i found a relevant page, but not the haskell program
02:30:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the first time i remember seeing that name was yesterday.
02:31:30 * oerjan tries looking for just system f
02:33:20 <int-e> impomatic: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/int-e/box256/master/four_squares_2/multi_0x0B :-)
02:34:35 <hppavilion[1]> @ask quintopia Are you the one who invented Predicate Nomic?
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03:43:30 <int-e> impomatic: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/int-e/box256/master/checkerboard_2/multi_0x10 ... this time, 0x0F looks impossible, but perhaps there's a better way of dealing with the color swaps.
04:01:45 <coppro> how did I become a contributor to len
04:02:44 <oerjan> you probably made a categorical mistake.
04:04:24 <lambda-11235> coppro: You pointed them at the sun, and got burned.
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05:20:08 <zzo38> What is best way to make up temporary files in a shell script? Is it possible to automatically delete once it is finish?
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05:27:11 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe if you opened a file descriptor and then unlinked the file.
05:27:27 <shachaf> I'm not sure how well that approach works for shell scripts.
05:32:01 <zzo38> Would it be possible to make up another program that will do the necessary stuff (given the process ID if necessary) and output the commands that can be use with eval or whatever?
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05:34:06 <int-e> impomatic: it fit... https://raw.githubusercontent.com/int-e/box256/master/checkerboard_2/multi_0x0F
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05:37:46 <hppavilion[1]> Product type yields tuples, but what exactly does quotient type yield?
05:46:18 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: All functional languages seem a little contrived. What happens when you grow one?
05:47:27 <HackEgo> iiuc i understand iiuc correctly.
05:48:30 <tswett> For "what a quotient type yields": that's tricky.
05:49:02 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Assuming "yields" is not whatever high-level math word you think I meant
05:49:38 <tswett> There's no such high-level math term, so I'm pretty sure I'm thinking the same thing you're thinking.
05:49:58 <lambdabot> It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob.
05:50:21 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: For reference, sum types yield tagged unions and product types yield tuples
05:51:19 <tswett> Right. Let's say that we're working in the category of... recursive sets, where the arrows are computable functions.
05:51:26 <zzo38> Exponents would then yield functions I suppose
05:51:43 <tswett> Then yeah. Tagged unions are an implementation of sum types, and tuples are an implementation of product types.
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05:52:09 <tswett> Sum types and product types are category theoretic duals to each other.
05:52:20 <tswett> Likewise, subset types and quotient types are category theoretic duals to each other.
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05:53:00 <tswett> Subset types can be implemented by just dropping the values that are outside the subset.
05:53:16 <earendel> generator functions in js yield valiues..like compute and spawn the next element of a determined series
05:53:55 <tswett> earendel: no, not really.
05:54:00 <earendel> one of more functional aspects in js.
05:54:23 <zzo38> That is true of JavaScript although it is not related to what hppavilion[1] and tswett was talking about
05:54:52 <tswett> Yeah, generator functions like this are a pretty neat thing.
05:55:09 <earendel> well.. maybe you're even wrong those generators are quite fancy stuff.
05:55:41 <earendel> ah good. we have an agreement.
05:56:36 <zzo38> Monadic generators is also possible and I have written some JavaScript codes for doing such thing
05:56:49 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so here's a disappointing answer for you: often, quotient types can't be implemented.
05:56:59 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: let me also give you an answer you'll be happier with.
05:57:34 <tswett> Often, quotient types can be implemented by picking one particular element of each equivalence class, and using that to represent the corresponding element of the quotient type.
05:57:52 <zzo38> Node.js does not implement the "return" method for generator objects although I made up my own implementation which seem to work in most cases and requires that the function just rethrows any exception it does not know
05:57:59 <tswett> You can often implement a quotient type by having a function which converts all its inputs to some "normal form".
05:58:18 <tswett> And if you do that, then the answer to your original question is...
05:58:22 <tswett> Quotient types yield normal forms.
05:58:33 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Oh, I suppose that makes sense; if x*y/y = x, then ((T, U)U = T, but
05:59:13 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Oh, I suppose that makes sense; if x*y/y = x, then {(T, U) `U} = T, but what's {T `U} if T isn't a tuple?
06:00:00 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Oh, subset types would be difference types, wouldn't they?
06:00:13 <earendel> zzo38: return? useless in async code. also you can return values. but why not yield* them?
06:00:20 <tswett> Now, quotients of sets are more general than quotients of numbers.
06:00:49 <tswett> In general, the thing that you "quotient over" isn't another set; it's an equivalence relation.
06:01:22 <zzo38> earendel: Not all code will be asynchronous though anyways. But yes you can use return and yield and yield* inside of a function, just the method called "return" is not yet implemented
06:01:34 <tswett> So if you have a set with 100 elements, doing a quotient could land you with any number of elements from 1 to 100 (inclusive).
06:02:13 <tswett> Sometimes, you'll do a quotient where every equivalence class has the same number of elements.
06:02:23 <tswett> *This* is the case that corresponds to quotients of numbers.
06:02:49 <tswett> If you have a set with 100 elements, and you do a quotient such that every equivalence class contains exactly 5 elements, then you'll end up, at the end, with a set with 20 elements.
06:02:56 <zzo38> But with the monadic generator operations you can do such thing as .joinR() which replaces "return x" with "return yield*x" for example.
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06:04:02 <tswett> Hey everyone, I've been working on my English–Spanish blend some more.
06:04:23 <tswett> I've finally managed to produce... about two words' worth of vocabulary.
06:04:34 <earendel> well the tricky part is the generator "stops" the computation until next yield..allowing a nice form of memoization
06:05:05 <earendel> @zzo38. anything else isn't even that world-moving.
06:05:07 <tswett> I'm starting by blending Old English and Latin, and to start, I'm doing just the consonants.
06:05:22 <tswett> Pretty much ignoring the vowels.
06:05:40 <zzo38> earendel: I am not sure what you meant.
06:06:09 <zzo38> I know what you say is true but I do not understand how it is related to
06:06:15 <tswett> Most of the words I've come up with are kinda boring, because they're identical to either the Old English or the Latin.
06:06:42 <tswett> There's one exception, which is the word for "brother". It is:
06:06:54 <tswett> I'm sure you are all very impressed by this.
06:08:43 <zzo38> earendel: I do not understand what you mean by "anything else isn't even that world-moving" and what your point is by that, is what I meant.
06:08:54 <earendel> nevermind.. i'm not able to express that in a formal way, and it's indeed not related to whatever you guys do here. it's a fun channel, since i never know what you're talking about. one of the last of these channels..
06:09:10 <earendel> so i silence myself again and listen here and then.
06:09:13 <tswett> I've gotta sleep now. Night, everyone.
06:10:31 <zzo38> Which is meaning what?
06:11:40 <zzo38> I think dc and INTERCAL both have something similar
06:13:03 <zzo38> (Such thing could also be implemented in some Forth systems probably)
06:13:18 <pikhq> return -level 2 x returns from the caller, for example.
06:13:42 <shachaf> what happens if you give it a negative level
06:15:01 <zzo38> I would also thought of a strange kind of JavaScript where you can write such thing as "arguments.caller.caller.return(x)"
06:16:31 <shachaf> pikhq: how're things over at pooch hq
06:19:53 * Sgeo wouldn't be surprised if that's how Tcl worked
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06:25:05 <zzo38> Another idea is evasive exceptions, such as if it is implemented extending JavaScript then a label name might be a constant local to the function, the label is itself a function which throws an evasive exception and the function containing that label catches it at the point where the label is (it cannot be caught by "catch" blocks, although "finally" blocks still work)
06:26:45 <zzo38> So it is like a "goto" command but is a bit more generalized
06:49:24 <shachaf> I wrote a chdir executable for Linux once.
06:49:46 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: return^-1 x returns x from the current function's callee
06:50:12 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Upside-down call stack: Every function has 0..infinity callers and 1 callee
06:51:23 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It's a sort of functional version of COMPUTED goto, I suppose
06:52:31 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes it is
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07:02:45 <Grenlo> I don't know, I wasn't sure if people were lurking about here.
07:02:53 <hppavilion[1]> Grenlo: Are you trying to kick this channel into gear?
07:03:56 <Grenlo> Mm what are you working on? *Braces himself*
07:03:59 <zzo38> There are people on this channel. You can ask the question if you have something to write please
07:04:04 <zzo38> Otherwise you do not have to.
07:05:02 <zzo38> I work on many things, currently on some utilities for farbfeld
07:05:05 <hppavilion[1]> So https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiichi_Goto was a person
07:05:24 <pikhq> Mostly I just work on random bullshit, really.
07:05:31 <hppavilion[1]> Grenlo: A discussion you just missed was about a functional computed GOTO statement
07:06:09 <zzo38> What kind of random bullshit?
07:07:04 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: He uses an octuple-blind process to randomly sample male cow excrement from farms around the world, which he then studies
07:07:31 <pikhq> It's great research for my upcoming esolang, Cowpie.
07:09:16 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: A much-anticipated development in the Esolang industry
07:11:01 <Grenlo> Perhaps I would gain at least some understanding of functional programming by listening in here.
07:11:44 <Grenlo> I suppose to an esoteric-ish extent.
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07:18:45 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I wonder if a usable typesys could be implemented with return^n
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11:35:58 <lambdabot> CYUL 111000Z 11010G15KT 1 1/2SM -SN SCT007 OVC020 M01/M02 A3005 RMK SF3NS5 /S02/ SLP178
11:36:20 <lambdabot> KOAK 110953Z 25007KT 10SM OVC020 13/09 A3002 RMK AO2 SLP165 T01330094 PNO $
11:36:29 * boily glares at the shachafweather
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12:28:30 <b_jonas> In git, is there a command to reset/merge a branch without checking it out first but in such a way that it only works if it's a fast-forward?
12:29:02 <ais523> b_jonas: also, the only such command I can think of is push
12:29:11 <ais523> and you'd need to do it from a different repo
12:57:16 <b_jonas> git branch can reset a branch without checking it out, but it doesn't offer a check for fast forward
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13:45:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46769&oldid=46491 * Primo * (+600) /* Shortest known "hello world" program. */
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15:34:42 <Taneb> I need to choose my final year project...
15:34:50 <Taneb> Two I'm tempted by are basically esolanging, it seems
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15:36:36 <Taneb> (functional programming with orderings and equivalences; and a proof assistant for a graph programming language)
15:49:22 <Taneb> b_jonas: do you have any insights as to my path forwards?
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17:31:13 <b_jonas> argh, I'm getting malloc crashes. something's going very wrong here.
17:32:01 <gamemanj> potential(ly impractical) solution: "Who uses malloc? Static allocation is The Future!"
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17:34:12 <int-e> does valgrind help?
17:34:22 <int-e> gamemanj: I'm not sure that's how it works...
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17:34:45 <int-e> gamemanj: managed heaps are a more likely candidate... and being used quite successfully I might say
17:34:46 <gamemanj> Heap corruption is actually a benefit, because it means the code is writing to addresses you won't be using in your program, so it's at least theoretically tracable.
17:36:09 <int-e> hmm, is the allocator a strange enough machine that it's TC with a carefully crafted heap?
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17:36:23 <int-e> (very C library specific question, obviously)
17:36:33 <gamemanj> That much depends on your allocator and how insane the writer of the heap was.
17:36:52 <gamemanj> Managed heaps are even weirder since I've heard they allow memory to be moved.
17:40:01 <int-e> they might. it's beneficial for avoiding fragmentation and speeding up allocation
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17:46:16 <gamemanj> Hmm. Maybe there's a solution in this to the old problem of "how to specify the exact alignment, permissions and other requirements for a block of memory"
17:46:47 <gamemanj> An allocator that requires supplying it with a block of bytecode to determine a good address.
17:49:50 <gamemanj> Now, the bytecode will use relative addressing for instructions. The bytecode will also use a randomly chosen* set of instruction IDs: 91, 93, 43, 45, 60, 62.
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17:52:21 <int-e> ah I knew it wasn't my own idea.... the term is "weird machine". http://langsec.org/papers/Bratus.pdf uses an allocator as an example.
17:52:34 <b_jonas> what? no, you don't need fancy bytecode, you only need about four integer parameters and a ton of flags for a memory allocation
17:53:39 <gamemanj> b_jonas: ...I think you may be missing the point. Notice my odd choice of instruction IDs...
17:54:32 <b_jonas> I don't see anything interesting about those ids
17:55:11 <gamemanj> `lua -e "print(string.char(91))"
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17:55:31 <HackEgo> lua: (command line):1: unexpected symbol near '"print(string.char(91))"'
17:55:54 <b_jonas> gamemanj: try without the quotes
18:02:28 <gamemanj> ironically, when I tested it in a command line, I tried without the quotes first.
18:02:42 <HackEgo> lua: cannot open print(string.char(91)): No such file or directory
18:02:46 <gamemanj> `lua -e print(string.char(91))
18:03:20 <gamemanj> The point being, of course, that the "bytecode" is Brainfuck.
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18:35:14 <shachaf> @tell boily One day last week it was 30 degrees here.
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18:58:05 <fizzie> fungot: You're a clever bot, why can't you support note-sending?
18:58:05 <fungot> fizzie: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
18:58:20 <fizzie> fungot: I see you're up to your old tricks.
18:58:20 <fungot> fizzie: that is just a value of type is created containing the syntax for mark if he was really gonna get worse and worse each week,
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19:01:05 <ais523> huh, fungot is mimicking itself?
19:01:06 <fungot> ais523: if that is not used commonly and carries with it an array subscript was too easy heh one time i figured if it's possible.
19:01:08 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:01:42 <ais523> fizzie: feature idea: ^style random
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19:09:11 <gamemanj> fizzie: feature idea: a 64Kb permanent store and command to define a command in brainfuck + extras that can access it (as a "second tape"), and can call other commands. That way, if someone gives you an implementable feature request, you can just point them at that meta-command.
19:12:09 <gamemanj> (There are loads of problems with this idea, specifically that someone, someday, would wipe the permanent store - but if only a specific group of people could access it, and they had a standard for data storage, plus a simulator to make sure it doesn't crash?)
19:13:27 <ais523> gamemanj: err, ^def already exists
19:13:32 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
19:14:04 <ais523> ^def exampleforgamemanj ul (here's an example for gamemanj)S
19:14:08 <fungot> here's an example for gamemanj
19:14:10 <gamemanj> you have got to be kidding me.
19:14:33 <ais523> that said each defined command is self-contained, and doesn't have permanent storage (yet)
19:14:42 <ais523> wouldn't be too hard to implement the permastore though
19:14:55 <ais523> (note also that defined commands are temporary unless fizzie makes them permanent)
19:15:01 <ais523> ^def exampleforgamemanj
19:15:01 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
19:15:04 <ais523> ^def exampleforgamemanj bf
19:15:04 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
19:15:09 <ais523> hmm, how do you delete these things?
19:15:12 <ais523> ^undef exampleforgamemanj
19:15:19 <fungot> here's an example for gamemanj
19:15:22 <ais523> meh, it'll disappear at the next reboot
19:15:29 <gamemanj> ^def exampleforgamemanj bf +[]
19:15:46 <ais523> why did you define it to an infinite loop?
19:15:53 <ais523> that normally gives an error message after a while
19:16:00 <ais523> ^def exampleforgamemanj +
19:16:00 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
19:16:03 <ais523> ^def exampleforgamemanj bf +
19:16:07 <ais523> that would make a lot more sense
19:16:47 <gamemanj> huh, I was thinking that the program returning normally would cause it to output something like "no output".
19:17:18 <ais523> although it takes a while to react if it hasn't been used recently
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19:18:01 <shachaf> /dev/null probably wasn't in the cache
19:18:26 <ais523> `` while true; do true; done
19:18:38 <ais523> I think infinite loops give no output in HackEgo, not sure though
19:18:57 <gamemanj> busy trying to implement ^cat /dev/null
19:19:24 <ais523> oh, hmm, that's an interesting reaction
19:19:40 <ais523> `` sleep 10; echo test
19:20:13 <ais523> `` sleep 20; echo test
19:20:49 <ais523> `` x=1; while true; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done
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19:21:44 <ais523> I'm guessing the no output is because it produces no output if it times out?
19:21:57 <ais523> `` x=1; while [ $x -lt 20 ] ; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done
19:22:17 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19
19:22:27 <ais523> `` x=1; while [ $x -lt 60 ] ; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done
19:23:30 <ais523> `` x=1; while [ $x -lt 50 ] ; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done
19:24:21 <ais523> `` x=1; while [ $x -lt 40 ] ; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done
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19:24:36 <gamemanj> documenting brainfuck code is hard "at 0 if mem0 not 0 then decrement mem2 and zero mem0"
19:25:01 <ais523> `` x=1; while [ $x -lt 30 ] ; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done
19:25:44 <ais523> `` x=1; while [ $x -lt 29 ] ; do echo $x; x=$((x+1)); sleep 1; done
19:26:14 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19 \ 20 \ 21 \ 22 \ 23 \ 24 \ 25 \ 26 \ 27 \ 28
19:26:58 <ais523> `` stdbuf -o0 echo test; while true; do true; done
19:28:01 <ais523> `` stdbuf -o0 echo test
19:28:21 <ais523> hmm, what if no shell is involved
19:28:31 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
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19:30:42 <gamemanj> ^def cat-experiment-gamemanj bf +++++++++[>+++++<-]>++<,>[<->-]>+<<[>>-<<[-]]>>[>+++++++++++[->++++++<]>++++++++++++.+++++++.--------..++++++.-.----.+++++.-.[-]<<[-]]
19:30:51 <gamemanj> ^cat-experiment-gamemanj this will have no output
19:30:55 <gamemanj> ^cat-experiment-gamemanj /dev/null
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19:31:46 <ais523> gamemanj: it might help if your , was in a loop
19:31:52 <ais523> if you're trying to read more than one character of input
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19:32:56 <gamemanj> actually that's deliberate - trying to match the whole of /dev/null would be hard
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19:33:03 <gamemanj> it's the output routine that's having problems
19:37:24 <gamemanj> ^def cat-experiment-gamemanj bf +++++++++[>+++++<-]>++<,>[<->-]>+<<[>>-<<[-]]>>[>+++++++++++[->++++++>+++<<]>++++++++++++.+.>-.<.++++++.-.----.+++++.-.[-]>[-]<<<[-]]
19:37:27 <gamemanj> ^cat-experiment-gamemanj /dev/null
19:40:31 <gamemanj> now to check if someone already did this
19:41:25 <fungot> +9[>+5<-]>+2<,>[<->-]>+<2[>2-<2[-]]>2[>+11[->+6>+3<2]>+12.+.>-.<.+6.-.-4.+5.-.[-]>[-]<3[-]]
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19:42:26 <gamemanj> ok, so cat isn't defined. If anyone wants ^cat /dev/null to show "NO OUTPUT", ^def the above :)
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19:49:56 <shachaf> @tell boily One day last week it was 30 degrees here.
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21:58:38 <HackEgo> smlist 435: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
22:00:04 <HackEgo> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
22:00:10 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=435
22:00:26 <Phantom_Hoover> nobody else on that list is still in the channel shachaf
22:00:45 <shachaf> but people might still be interested
22:01:08 <shachaf> how are people going to know about the super mega update service if it's never used
22:02:31 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
22:02:45 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
22:03:10 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: will be on Wednesday
22:03:16 <shachaf> Taneb: You're the only person on that list in this channel.
22:03:29 <Taneb> shachaf: yes but I'm four of them
22:03:33 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] b_jonas boily a`a`a`a`jo7as a`a`a`a`jo8as a`a`a`a`jo3as a`a`a`a`jo6as a`a`a`a`jo5as a`a`a`a`jo4as a`a`a`a`jo2as a`a`a`a`jo1as a`a`a`a`jonas0 a`a`a`a lambdabot chicken_jonas myname
22:03:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: enlist: not found
22:03:59 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
22:04:41 <shachaf> int-e: Try it again and you'll see.
22:06:15 <int-e> no, I read the source code...
22:06:22 <int-e> ...apparently I should've done this first :P
22:06:30 <shachaf> int-e: Well, it's too late now.
22:06:38 <shachaf> You might as well `list to see it in action.
22:06:46 <myname> don't you like highlights?
22:07:18 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/..xargs/| grep -v int-e | xargs/' bin/list
22:10:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:10:30 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
22:10:46 <int-e> `` sed =i 's/..xargs/| shuf | xargs/' bin/list
22:10:51 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 2: extra characters after command
22:11:25 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/..xargs/| shuf | xargs/' bin/list
22:12:15 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:12:23 <shachaf> It's supposed to be sorted by most recent modifiers.
22:12:40 <int-e> well it's going to be one of thise versions
22:13:05 <shachaf> b_jonas sabotaged the list with a bunch of spurious entries.
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22:28:35 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
22:28:45 <int-e> I think it doesn't even hilight people anymore
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22:29:36 <HackEgo> int-e hppavilion[1] b_jonas boily a`a`a`a`jo7as a`a`a`a`jo8as a`a`a`a`jo3as a`a`a`a`jo6as a`a`a`a`jo5as a`a`a`a`jo4as a`a`a`a`jo2as a`a`a`a`jo1as a`a`a`a`jonas0 a`a`a`a lambdabot chicken_jonas myname
22:29:37 <HackEgo> date > share/conscripts; culprits share/conscripts | xargs -n 1 | awk '!x[$0]++' | xargs
22:30:50 <b_jonas> yeah... and I still haven't written that new noping filter I promised
22:35:25 <ais523> huh, did Phantom_Hoover just join the new `list for the first time?
22:36:18 <HackEgo> Phantom_Hoover int-e hppavilion[1] b_jonas boily a`a`a`a`jo7as a`a`a`a`jo8as a`a`a`a`jo3as a`a`a`a`jo6as a`a`a`a`jo5as a`a`a`a`jo4as a`a`a`a`jo2as a`a`a`a`jo1as a`a`a`a`jonas0 a`a`a`a lambdabot chicken_jonas myname
22:36:56 <ais523> also b_jonas is on there a lot
22:37:31 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, I started to put a lot when I thought it was alphabetized
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22:38:01 <b_jonas> ais523: but it's sorted latest first, so there's no point adding lots of entries until after I want to remove an entry
22:38:04 <ais523> you were trying to push yourself past 512 characters?
22:38:21 <ais523> this really subverts the `list's purpose
22:38:31 <b_jonas> ais523: sort of. I was never on the list as b_jonas, but I was trying to make it so that I couldn't get on it
22:38:35 <ais523> insomuch as it has one at all
22:38:39 <b_jonas> since the list would consist only of names starting with a
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22:39:02 <ais523> then when you realised the sorting rules, you added yourself so that over time you'd fall off the end?
22:39:34 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I didn't add myself, and I think that doesn't help, because I think it's sorted by last appearance descending
22:39:46 <b_jonas> so it's a queue and every time you list you move on the head
22:39:59 <ais523> that's an even better sorting rule
22:40:01 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure that's how it works
22:40:05 <ais523> even if it's accidental, I like it
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22:40:17 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec hg log -l 512 --template "{desc}\0" -- "$@" | perl -0ne '/^<([^>]*)>/ and print"$1 "'
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22:40:26 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec hg log -l 512 --template "{desc}\0" -- "$@" | perl -0ne '/^<([^>]*)>/ and print"$1 "'
22:40:26 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
22:43:04 <b_jonas> reminder: culprits-ng is disabled because I haven't implemented a noping filter yet
22:45:43 <myname> b_jonas: you canntest if you move to the front, you know ...
22:46:52 <b_jonas> myname: I think I did test that with some of the numbered variants
22:47:17 <b_jonas> but you can see it from the source too: culprits lists in order of date backwards, then that awk thing filters keeping the first instance of each name
22:47:41 <b_jonas> myname: also, "chicken_jonas" appears on that list because the real b_jonas was too much of a chicken to list
22:51:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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22:54:04 <olsner> the real b_jonas is more chicken than chicken jonas?
22:55:16 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:56:17 <boily> hellolsner, b_jellonas. chickening?
22:56:44 * boily premptives shachaf's unloud-massage.
22:56:47 <lambdabot> shachaf said 3h 6m 50s ago: One day last week it was 30 degrees here.
22:56:56 <boily> shachaf: hellochaf. AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
22:57:20 <shachaf> boily: But now it's cold again.
22:57:22 <lambdabot> KOAK 112153Z 27009KT 10SM FEW024 BKN045 18/09 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP195 T01830094 PNO
22:58:09 <Taneb> shachaf: bekekekech?
22:58:36 <lambdabot> EGBB 112150Z 22003KT 4200 BR BKN028 09/09 Q1005
22:58:39 <fungot> b_jonas: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins were in truth, and everything in readiness for fnord. under these is concerned, the use of " coup" here is one that only takes predicates and has not named a
22:58:42 <Taneb> Chorus of the Frogs from Aristophanes' play The Frogs
22:59:03 <boily> shachaf: it's +18. it's hot.
22:59:09 <lambdabot> CYUL 112100Z 15012KT 10SM -RA FEW015 OVC020 06/05 A2983 RMK SF1SC7 SLP104
22:59:46 <Taneb> Aaaaah, my uni's weather station has a broken wind measurer thingy
23:00:28 <ais523> hmm, EGBB is easy to remember as "England, Great Britain, Birmingham" even though it doesn't actually stand for that
23:00:38 <b_jonas> Taneb: it's not broken. there's a terrible hurricane there right now.
23:00:56 <boily> Europe (part of), Gunited Kingdom, BBirmingham.
23:01:16 <boily> Britain gets hurricanes?
23:01:16 <shachaf> Taneb: Oh. I feel like I talked about that play in here recently but I don't remember the context.
23:01:29 <Taneb> boily: we did, once
23:01:42 -!- tromp_ has joined.
23:01:44 <ais523> oh, "Europe, Great Britain, Birmingham" works even better because it's in the right order
23:02:03 <ais523> even if it's still a little incorrect etymologically
23:03:10 <boily> I wish Bbirmingham was pronounced with a bilabial trill.
23:03:52 <ais523> I'm not sure I /can/ pronounce a bilabial trill
23:04:11 <Taneb> I'm not even sure what one is
23:04:36 <ais523> Taneb: you know how you say "b" by blowing outwards with your lips together, then letting your lips separate?
23:04:49 <ais523> if you have your lips in the right position, you can separate them with the force of your breath
23:05:04 <Taneb> Making a sort of brr sound?
23:05:08 <ais523> /now/, if you blow at the right speed, they'll separate then come back together, and separate again
23:05:15 <ais523> thus you get two b's in a row
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23:06:17 <Taneb> I can *almost* do that, but not consistently
23:06:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, it's blowing a raspberry with your lips basically?
23:08:45 <ais523> and then you somehow have to segue into "irmingham" without dropping a beat
23:09:14 <Taneb> It always comes out as prrirmingham for me
23:09:19 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
23:10:26 <boily> pbvbvbvbvbvrirngmingham...
23:10:31 <hppavilion[2]> A javascript framework that forces you to prove pages...
23:11:24 -!- earendel has joined.
23:11:34 <ais523> I've wanted strongly typed LaTeX for a while
23:11:43 <ais523> which could catch typos in formulas you write via the units on the two sides not being the same
23:12:27 <b_jonas> ais523: um... there's strongly typed stuff that catches non-matching units, but I don't think it's LaTeX
23:12:40 <ais523> right, I didn't think it /existed/
23:12:45 <ais523> I typo formulas too often
23:17:10 * oerjan is disappointed that this bbirmingham stuff wasn't how they actually pronounce it there
23:22:48 <boily> how do you say the "_"?
23:23:27 <b_jonas> boily: I'm not sure, it's a screen name so I don't have to pronounce it
23:23:27 <ais523> I had that problem too trying to pronounce it
23:23:30 <ais523> I guess you just wait for a bt
23:23:45 <b_jonas> but I usually pronounce it as béjónás
23:23:51 <b_jonas> so there's a vowel between
23:24:05 <coppro> I have now authored a piece of serious software whose source code includes the word "Coyoneda". What has come of my life?
23:25:09 <boily> cobbrello. mwah ah ah.
23:26:03 <ais523> I didn't know "Coyoneda" was a word at all
23:26:35 <shachaf> It's a little rude to dualize someone's name, don't you think?
23:26:41 <shachaf> Coyoneda is great, though.
23:27:04 <shachaf> coppro: If you don't want to include the word "Coyoneda" you can inline it.
23:28:19 <ais523> oh, I didn't even parse it with a break after the first o
23:28:29 <ais523> that's how I normally see it spelled
23:29:17 <shachaf> It's a Haskell type in this case.
23:29:27 <shachaf> Coyoneda f a = exists x. (f x, x -> a)
23:31:04 <b_jonas> how do you know what coyoneda is in coppro's software?
23:31:40 <myname> these exists thingies always get me
23:32:09 <b_jonas> why would it even use Haskell?
23:32:39 <myname> cause haskell is awesome
23:33:54 <shachaf> b_jonas: I've been seeing coppro's discussion of it in another channel.
23:34:05 <shachaf> Well, I haven't really been reading it in detail.
23:34:47 <b_jonas> but why would any serious software use haskell?
23:36:12 <myname> while we are at it: how do i do nested if then else in a do block without adding identation at every if
23:36:55 <lambdabot> https://prime.haskell.org/wiki/DoAndIfThenElse
23:37:01 <coppro> shachaf: I could, yes. That would somewhat defeat the entire point though
23:37:28 <coppro> which was to build the Operational instance of Zoom off of the Functor instance
23:38:18 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I wonder if a usable typesys could be implemented with return^n <-- you'd need the type of a function to include the return types of its callers...
23:38:24 <myname> so, as i guessed, you can't?
23:39:13 <shachaf> I don't know what you want to do.
23:39:47 <oerjan> > if 1 > 2 ; then 1 ; else if 2 > 3 ; then 2 ; else 3
23:39:58 <oerjan> myname: you can in ghc.
23:40:30 <oerjan> because you don't have to indent then or else.
23:41:00 <oerjan> well you have to start with "else if".
23:41:12 <oerjan> that might even be official haskell2010, not sure.
23:41:33 <b_jonas> huh... how does that even parse? there shouldn't be semicolons there
23:42:06 <oerjan> b_jonas: the semicolons (optional) are what makes it work
23:42:18 <b_jonas> (in haskell that is. in ruby semicolons would be allowed)
23:42:20 <oerjan> because they're equivalent to newlines.
23:42:45 <b_jonas> oerjan: um... nah, I don't get it
23:43:03 <b_jonas> that's just not how H syntax used to work
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23:44:13 <shachaf> b_jonas: Right, that's why the Haskell Prime proposal I linked to above changed it.
23:44:55 <b_jonas> meh, haskell syntax was screwed up a few times already
23:44:57 <oerjan> b_jonas: what's impossible about it? it's just a small change to the grammar.
23:45:25 <b_jonas> them haskellers just have a very different idea about syntax from me
23:45:53 <b_jonas> I should go and program C++ and Rust, those have syntax I like
23:46:42 <shachaf> b_jonas: Just write Haskell with {} and ;
23:47:01 <b_jonas> that's already how I write H
23:47:03 <oerjan> b_jonas: ok, it's official haskell 2010.
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23:58:28 <oerjan> <ais523> meh, it'll disappear at the next reboot <-- i think that's the only way to get rid of them.
23:58:58 <ais523> are there any languages which can be written with /just/ {};?
23:59:04 <ais523> perhaps there are some DSLs inside IOCCC entries
23:59:14 <ais523> which tend to use {};-based encodings a lot
23:59:26 <ais523> due to an intentional exploit of the byte counter
00:05:58 <int-e> "The number of octets excluding whitespace (tab, space, newline, formfeed, return), and excluding any ';', '{' or '}' followed by whitespace or end of file, must be <= 2048."
00:06:13 <int-e> (presumably that's the 2001 version of the size rule)
00:06:25 <ais523> strangely enough, people tend to screw around with {}; rather than the different types of legal whitespace
00:07:56 <myname> could you do a whitespace interpreter in 2 kb?
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00:22:02 <hppavilion[1]> How about... a programming language with no form of multi-statement control flow
00:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> All code must be written as a series of one-liners (called "actions")
00:22:31 <hppavilion[1]> And once a one-liner completes, it cannot be executed again
00:23:13 <Phantom_Hoover> that's either clearly non-TC or you'd end up doing everything in one statement
00:23:52 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: You have to partial-vectorize over lazy lists and such to get anything to work
00:25:03 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: A program that runs forever, for example, is [put(x%128) for x in [0, 1...] if x%128 > 31]
00:26:16 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Clearly a one-liner, but infinite. Specifically, it prints the printable ASCII characters over and over again in cycle (with a short delay between each, though it's only 31 ticks)
00:27:50 <hppavilion[1]> A truth machine is [print('1') for x in [...]] if (x := input()) = '1' else if x = '0' print('0') else fail
00:30:49 <hppavilion[1]> [print('$n bottles of beer on the wall\n$n bottles of beer\ntake one down, pass it around, \n'+str(n-1)+' bottles of beer on the wall!' for n in 99..0 if n not in [1, 0] else if n = 1 print('1 bottle of beer on the wall\n1 bottle of beer\ntake one down, pass it around, \nno more bottles of beer on the wall!' else if n = 0 print('no more bottles of beer on the wall\nno more bottles of beer!\nGo to the store, buy some more\n99 bottles of
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01:21:40 <oerjan> the morning after http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/nemi/
01:24:03 * oerjan cannot be bothered to find a permalink
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01:26:02 <oerjan> not that they're perma anyway on that site.
01:33:59 <hppavilion[1]> A mix of event-driven programming (node style, but with better syntax) and vectorized array programming would be pretty interesting
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07:45:16 <hppavilion[1]> ASM seems to be optimized for procedural programming as its origin
07:46:23 <hppavilion[1]> You have a call stack onto which you PUSH your location before JMPing into a subroutine, and off of which you POP the location to return to via CJMP
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08:05:08 <mad> asm is optimized for whatever you can run fast on a chip
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11:26:51 <Taneb> I've more or less decided what I'm going to do for my final year project
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11:39:40 <b_jonas> a blurred panel? has Unshelved ever done that except maybe for a Sunday strip?
11:40:03 <Taneb> "Functional Programming with Equivalences and Orderings"
11:40:53 <Taneb> Making a Haskell library for dealing with relations
11:41:25 <b_jonas> what, like dealing with my parents and grandparents?
11:41:55 <Taneb> Yes, that's exactly what I mean
11:41:59 <Taneb> Nothing to do with set theory at al
11:49:23 <int-e> the parent relation is not transitive
11:50:10 <Taneb> Nor is it symmetric or reflexive
11:50:24 <Taneb> Unless you're a Homestuck character or something
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13:55:45 * zgrep just read that as "Making a Haskell library for dealing with religions."
13:58:51 <Taneb> That'd be a more involved project, and not one I'd be quite as comfortable doing
13:59:25 <Taneb> As a probably atheist of an otherwise exclusively Christian background
13:59:38 <Taneb> I don't know that many religions
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14:15:18 <zgrep> Taneb: You could always make some.
14:15:39 <Taneb> Got boring quickly
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16:10:30 <b_jonas> groan http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4078
16:16:13 <oerjan> b_jonas: on the bright side, she's not a topologist
16:17:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: she's still young, give him a few years
16:18:09 <b_jonas> fungot, is dynamic_pointer_cast a member function of std::shared_ptr? or a non-member function?
16:18:09 <fungot> b_jonas: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff
16:18:26 <b_jonas> the standard library source code? NO WAY
16:18:47 <b_jonas> it's ugly, full of underscores, and more importantly, I need to know what the SPEC says and what I can assume works everywhere.
16:19:20 <oerjan> listen, when fungot gives you advice this clear, don't you dare protest
16:19:20 <fungot> oerjan: something like scheme48 ( upon the general position is a part of these amendments, i can only thank the president-in-office, you did hear me say that we have had in getting information with regard to monetary policy, a factor is
16:20:42 <b_jonas> this clear, mister president-in-office
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16:32:13 <Taneb> I've just sent someone a pull request because I disagreed with how he structured a library
16:32:21 <Taneb> I'm not sure if this is considered helpful or rude
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16:36:33 <Taneb> But I tried to do it as well as I can, changing all the documentation and test suites accordingly
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17:26:15 <gamemanj> ^cat-experimental-gamemanj /dev/null
17:26:32 <gamemanj> ^cat-experiment-gamemanj /dev/null
17:38:06 <int-e> b_jonas: [smbc] that's what you get for raising spherical cows!
17:39:40 <int-e> (the button picture that comes with this strip is just boring)
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17:58:48 <Taneb> prooftechnique, it's about approximation
18:00:03 <int-e> prooftechnique: your interpretation was off by several orders of magnitudes!
18:03:48 <b_jonas> Taneb: did you alse send an explanation for why the change is worth?
18:04:38 <gamemanj> gtg. have fun: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/donotdelete_nyan.BytePusher
18:04:40 <Taneb> Basically, it's a testing framework in Haskell along the lines of QuickCheck and smallcheck
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18:04:52 <Taneb> I moved everything from Test.Check to Test.LeanCheck
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18:08:33 <b_jonas> Also, why a trebuchet rather than a crossbow?
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18:09:12 <Taneb> b_jonas, trebuchets have a more obvious arc
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18:59:39 <hppavilion[1]> Do antimatter beings talk in the negative first person?
18:59:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Quite puzzling | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Istanbul (not Constantinople).
19:00:02 <olsner> probably first unperson
19:01:02 <hppavilion[1]> olsner: Is there a smooth transition over the reals between POVs?
19:08:11 <zzo38> How to make the To: address to be used as the From: address for a reply of a message with mailx?
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20:08:11 <myname> is there any idiomatic way to default to a deriving(Show) in haskell for deugging purposes that does not require commenting out the whole instance?
20:14:18 <myname> like, i have data Foo = ... deriving (Eq); instance Show Foo where ...
20:14:43 <myname> now i want to derive show for foo instead of my instance to debug shit
20:15:54 <myname> it complains about duplicate definitions
20:16:27 <prooftechnique> You have a real show instance that you want to use in production, but you just want to use the default one for debugging
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20:19:02 <prooftechnique> Hmm. I guess you could write your Show instance for a wrapped variant of your type, though I guess that could get ugly
20:19:18 <prooftechnique> I actually don't know if there's a good way, other than that
20:19:32 <prooftechnique> Oh, or write a debug wrapper for your type, then derive Show on that
20:20:04 <prooftechnique> You could even write some helper functions to handle wrapping and unwrapping
20:20:30 <myname> if i derive show on a debug wrapper, it will still use the instance of the wrapped class
20:25:27 <prooftechnique> On further thought, I don't think the open world assumption really works with that sort of use :(
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20:26:50 <prooftechnique> Other than writing a separate class to replace your show instance (or something orthogonal like using trace), I think you'll have to comment things.
20:27:04 <prooftechnique> I guess you could #ifdef things, but that's a whole other thing
20:28:32 <prooftechnique> Or something like this? http://stackoverflow.com/a/28666200/794944
20:31:09 <prooftechnique> That was more what I was getting at when I mentioned a wrapper, I think
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21:22:53 <hppavilion[2]> What's the IRC abbreviation for "That is false", the same way "ofc" is the abbreviation for "That is true"?
21:23:39 <gamemanj> statements["gamemanj"].last.correct = false;
21:24:04 <hppavilion[2]> I'm defining a logic for reasoning about justice. ⊥ is "Inconceivable!", ⊤ is "Well /duh/", and ∅ (which is neither true nor false) is "I dunno LOL"
21:24:35 <hppavilion[2]> (whatever you guys come up with, "Ofc", and "Idk", respectively)
21:24:36 <gamemanj> ... where on earth did you get those letters?
21:25:09 <gamemanj> ⊥⊥⊥ The Spikes Of Doom, of course!
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21:26:33 <hppavilion[2]> ⊥ is sometimes called "The Absurdity" and represents a defined-to-be-false value (or, in type theory, the Void type)
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21:27:05 <hppavilion[2]> ⊤ is... well, I don't know the name, but it's unambiguously true (the "Unit" or "Top" type in type theory)
21:27:23 <hppavilion[2]> gamemanj: And ∅ is one I made up because I needed it for truth tables
21:27:39 <gamemanj> Noted. To me ⊥ and ⊤ remind me of someone's way of writing ternary that I saw once...
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21:38:40 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: “What's the IRC abbreviation for "That is false",” => it's “no wai”
21:39:19 <int-e> web application interface?
21:39:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Extended truth-table demo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46770 * Hppavilion1 * (+579) Published
21:41:37 * int-e just doesn't like these "cute" typos.
21:42:34 <gamemanj> They're talking about the observation of cuteness and how it is not objective.
21:50:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Extended truth-table demo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46771&oldid=46770 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Formatting
21:51:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Extended truth-table demo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46772&oldid=46771 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) Formatting again (used preview this time)
21:51:58 <hppavilion[2]> gamemanj: There. That's what ∅ does in truth tables
21:52:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Extended truth-table demo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46773&oldid=46772 * Hppavilion1 * (-11) Editing cruft removed
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22:02:31 <hppavilion[2]> zgrep: I'm considering designing a type of diagram for software that can be done in pure Unicode (or, in a pinch, pure typable ASCII)
22:05:26 <hppavilion[2]> zgrep: You know what I haven't seen yet that would be INCREDIBLY valuable for software?
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22:14:32 <zgrep> What would bnf4ocr be? Things like the MNIST default training set example from TensorFlow's page? :P
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22:25:52 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: uh... aren't there like a ton of diagram drawing software these days, because at one point there was too few and then everyone invented their own one?
22:31:44 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: bnf4ocr, on the other hand, would be AWESOME
22:32:32 <hppavilion[2]> That's bnf4ocr. It's not really bnf at all, but it's inspired by it superficially.
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22:46:25 <zgrep> hppavilion[2]: Hold on, sorry. I'm translating stuff for people in another channel.
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22:52:06 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> olsner: Is there a smooth transition over the reals between POVs? <-- not for humans hth
22:53:00 <oerjan> in any case i don't have the bell on in irssi.
22:53:40 <int-e> I'd try `printf \a but shachaf would be annoyed
22:54:11 <oerjan> annoying shachaf is so easy it must be a monoid.
22:55:17 <shachaf> oerjan: not \aing in the channel is pretty standard irc etiquette hth
22:55:29 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't need \a to annoy you
22:55:43 <oerjan> lots of other characters work
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22:59:43 <int-e> just mentioning the name could easily do the trick
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23:00:53 <int-e> oh it's a bright new day... minus the bright
23:01:36 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i don't think ⊥ means what you think it means
23:03:03 <shachaf> oerjan: you must be exaggerating
23:03:17 <oerjan> shachaf: exaggerating what
23:04:03 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:05:19 <shachaf> you're messing up my terminal
23:06:06 <oerjan> i was demonstrating hth
23:06:06 <shachaf> only slightly in this case
23:06:43 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/oerjan-terminal.png
23:07:25 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:07:40 <oerjan> do you normally have no delimiters after nicks
23:08:04 <shachaf> oerjan: they're just black-on-black
23:08:16 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: That overscore got copied down to the next line
23:09:05 <HackEgo> âù«½ô¡ÁÃÔ_ZW&ä1ÅÕÆû9¡lþkó·ÏºÝÔ^i¼±¦øWüÐ8Äòw¾"²£A¤À=èXÀÛR»fÂPãøüo˳7R¡·§Q^U'ïgåù.t}Ç{ \ ¦4Ç ÏÛmÒ:Zè$y±Edâ¿.\Àá&gÃnN>{kT]ÞN¸ HLK \ éÆtèt+̺EFY \ ¥®ÒÌÕ1±m%$k³åkr)/=&rQEØ´¸´Îú[äèPÆ}.ádikÝÑ9kCpª#¡¬\ìèÜá÷ B¶.5x8Ð=lÚÍoÛ4Äؼõ4üï¿]¯D`I4\Û¤¢t+ù
L¨ç-/?è=¢Ùr¥3ìçjkk)+
23:09:26 <shachaf> Actually that's not so bad.
23:09:28 <oerjan> i was resisting that hth
23:09:41 <int-e> that's the urandom link?
23:09:43 <shachaf> ngevd is unlikely to generate valid UTF-8 code sequences
23:10:05 <int-e> wtf is wrong with °
23:10:15 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, it's not actually a urandom link for dumb reasons
23:10:28 <int-e> `ls -la wisdom/ngevd
23:10:29 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
23:10:33 <int-e> `` ls -la wisdom/ngevd
23:10:34 <oerjan> int-e: it's not the ° but the invisible space after it
23:10:38 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 215 Dec 9 04:13 wisdom/ngevd
23:10:47 -!- atehwa has joined.
23:10:59 <HackEgo> [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005F LOW LINE]
23:11:00 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, i feel like if your terminal can't deal with unicode then that's on you
23:11:30 <int-e> I guess the half-wit...width spaces are no problem?
23:11:35 <shachaf> oerjan was trying to get my goat
23:12:09 <HackEgo> 6537: Your famous mysterious evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
23:12:36 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/famous/infamous/' wisdom/oerjan
23:12:53 * oerjan gently swats int-e -----###
23:12:56 <int-e> clog: are you borken?
23:13:08 <oerjan> clog is fine afaict. glogbot is awol.
23:13:13 <lambdabot> *** "infamous" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:13:13 <lambdabot> adj 1: known widely and usually unfavorably; "a notorious
23:13:13 <lambdabot> gangster"; "the tenderloin district was notorious for
23:13:13 <lambdabot> vice"; "the infamous Benedict Arnold"; [syn: {ill-famed},
23:13:28 <shachaf> hm, are you infamous or notorious
23:15:47 <HackEgo> The password of the month is qjkxbmwvz
23:16:40 <oerjan> int-e: actually one relevant thing with clog is that the tunes logs have no declared charset so sometimes i have to change it.
23:17:00 <int-e> yeah, I just noticed that
23:17:06 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/password
23:17:07 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 39 Mar 5 17:33 wisdom/password
23:18:05 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
23:18:07 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
23:19:24 <oerjan> shachaf: nefarious hth
23:19:51 <int-e> ah. "<oerjan> there's that a* word i can never remember again"
23:21:07 <oerjan> of course now my brain has created an connection between "word i can never remember" and that word, so now i sometimes remember it instead of whatever _other_ word i'm trying to remember.
23:21:34 <int-e> . o O ( `` sed -i 's/"a.*"/"allegorical"/' wisdom/oerjan )
23:23:20 <shachaf> `learn An amortized word is a word that oerjan can never remember.
23:23:23 <HackEgo> Learned 'amortized': An amortized word is a word that oerjan can never remember.
23:23:40 <int-e> (not worth it but it's another nice word that starts with 'a')
23:24:03 <shachaf> int-e: I spent weeks once trying to remember the word "proverbial".
23:24:14 <shachaf> I asked everyone I talked to.
23:24:29 <int-e> The word about algorithms that I have trouble remembering is "parsimonious"
23:24:53 <oerjan> a persimmonious algorithm
23:24:58 <shachaf> What do algorithms have to do with fruit?
23:25:36 <int-e> so that's what it's called in english, thanks!
23:26:08 * oerjan immediately regrets the ...
23:27:17 * oerjan now wonders what persimmon is in german
23:28:54 <oerjan> apparently both names (minus an m) are used in norwegian. not that i've really noticed them.
23:31:02 <int-e> A parsimonious algorithm is one that doesn't ask redundant questions... I believe Knuth coined the term for his analysis of convex hull algorithms based on "clockwise" predicates. The predicate is true for three points PQR if the triangle PQR has P,Q,R in clockwise order. But the computation is subject to loss of precision if done with floating point numbers, and algorithms may run into trouble...
23:31:08 <int-e> ...with contradictory answers. One principled way to avoid such trouble is not to ask redundant questions. Hence the concept.
23:31:58 <int-e> (The term is also applicable to sorting.)
23:32:08 <oerjan> yeah i knew the sorting version
23:32:20 <oerjan> merge sort fulfils that, i think.
23:33:32 <oerjan> you could create a (badly balanced) shuffling algorithm by calling such a sort algorithm with a random comparison predicate
23:34:14 <int-e> Most sorting algorithms have the property, I think... including insertion sort, heap sort, many implementations of quicksort. Shellsort is one exception I can think of.
23:34:21 <oerjan> i think i experimented with that in the channel once.
23:34:53 <int-e> but I may be wrong about heapsort, actually
23:35:55 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:36:04 * oerjan isn't overly clear on all those
23:36:24 <int-e> And I guess that sorting networks are generally not very good at avoiding redundant comparisons.
23:39:57 <int-e> Yeah, the standard array based heap sort is not on the list, because it places many elements inside the heap twice (once when building the heap (raising elements) and once in the extraction phase (sinking elements)). A pity :)
23:41:06 <Greenlock> What list is this and what are we sorting?
23:41:35 <int-e> The list is the list of parsimonious sorting algorithms.
23:42:02 <int-e> (comparison based, so it doesn't really matter how its sorted)
23:42:26 <oerjan> ah but are you sure the comparisons are repeatable
23:42:59 <int-e> the whole point is that they need not be repeatable
23:43:01 * oerjan snags his swatter back
23:43:25 <oerjan> so you are saying the list is parsimoniously sorted?
23:43:33 <oerjan> otherwise they need to be.
23:44:27 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
23:44:37 <int-e> parsimony is also important when programming kayak
23:45:01 <int-e> so this has real-world esoteric programming applications
23:45:07 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sorting_algorithm#.22Comparison_of_algorithms.22_table_ordering
23:45:37 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Last time I checked, ⊥ is unambiguously false
23:45:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: *whoosh*
23:45:51 -!- boily has joined.
23:45:58 * oerjan was admittedly aiming high
23:46:13 <boily> hppavellon[2], hellørjan.
23:46:21 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
23:46:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you know general grammars are TC right
23:47:05 <oerjan> well BNF is for context-free grammars, so
23:47:46 <hppavilion[1]> It's like BNF, but every rule has an unbounded nonnegative integer associated with it
23:48:01 <int-e> oerjan: fwiw, "Persimone" is a german word as well... apparenly "Kaki" is really a whole family of fruits.
23:48:06 <hppavilion[1]> There are two new "operators" for matching, of the syntaxes x++ and x--{y}{z}
23:48:36 <hppavilion[1]> x++ matches the empty string, but with the side effect of incrementing the integer associated with the rule "x"
23:48:46 <boily> hppavilion[1]: I porthelloed y'all.
23:49:20 <hppavilion[1]> x--{y}{z} matches the empty string, then decrements x and matches y, UNLESS x is 0, in which case it matches z
23:49:36 * int-e idly wonders how many people here know DPLL
23:49:38 <hppavilion[1]> Obviously, x has to be a rule name, it can't be any other type of expression
23:49:55 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I'll take that as a "I don't"
23:49:59 * boily longs for the day where he won't tab-complete a mkdir
23:50:27 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and we pretend backtracking never happens because TCBNF is the Omniscient God of Grammar
23:50:28 <int-e> (mm, I only know half of the names though, meh)
23:51:12 <Greenlock> int-e: I don't know anything; I've learned more in the last five minutes than I learn in a month.
23:51:19 <hppavilion[1]> Though in reality, it just pushes a clone of the current environment onto a stack every time backtracking may occur, then discards the ToS if it doesn't after completion and POPs it and uses it as the new environment if it does backtrack
23:51:34 <int-e> Let's see. Davis, Putnam, Logemann, Loveland.
23:51:43 <oerjan> * boily longs for the day where he won't tab-complete a mkdir <-- surely you should long for the day your computer can guess the directory so that tab-completion works hth
23:51:46 <hppavilion[1]> (Because AFAIK you can't really figure out if you're going to have to backtrack without trying, in the general case)
23:53:19 <int-e> oerjan: if it can do that then it shouldn't require pressing the tab key either
23:53:29 <HackEgo> Greenlock: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:54:53 <hppavilion[1]> I sometimes am about to sen a message with absolutely no value to the discussion, then I absentmindedly add a joke to it (such as the <tab> joke above) and it becomes... well, still worthless, but at least mildly amusing
23:55:49 <oerjan> why would you do such a thing are you secretly an alien reptile
23:56:32 * oerjan carves another *WHOOSH* into his belt
23:56:47 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/1530/
23:58:33 <hppavilion[1]> Greenlock: And most certainly not something we do for all new users.
23:58:47 <int-e> I need a map of the GG world... I was assuming the Corbette monastry(?) was quite some distance away from Paris...
23:59:28 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I'm hoping for oerjan to correct me
23:59:58 <int-e> But that often requires subtlety, so I may have spoiled the chance now.
00:00:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: evill: not found
00:00:44 <Greenlock> Do you have... an esoteric chatbot?
00:00:55 <int-e> fungot: that's your cue, I think
00:00:55 <fungot> int-e: i am just as confused. you know, that thing is " quantum-complete"? -g ( was that fnord thing from stockholm, a special shape, very magic ( in the system used by any scheme? i'm using. you'd said who did that samurai the story, right. some numbers, perhaps, it may be said that particularly here, parliament will give a single instance,
00:01:10 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:01:20 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
00:01:29 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i just wrote :p ( what was i thinking of something. at the moment. wheee, shiny.'). the solution is to produce the bonds i.e fnord between the karma and our fnord causeway. the scene uses hare coursing as a metaphor and may be fnord to other military genius, indeed, from country, have the fnord so fnord a series of really coy riddles about it and stop the eval loop, stable or otherwise fail ( just annotate the pa
00:01:35 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
00:02:04 <int-e> fungot isn't very smart, but quite esoteric
00:02:04 <fungot> int-e: what about text with color? something like fnord or fnord fnord
00:02:07 <hppavilion[1]> Greenlock: fungot is esoteric in multiple ways, too. They spit out completely incoherent garbage, AND they're written in funge-98
00:02:07 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: addition is hard. let's go shopping!" activist groups throughout the country were outraged that mattel would program barbie with such overtly sexist sayings, and the
00:02:58 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Huh, fungot's mention of coloured text was actually fairly relevant to our discussion
00:03:06 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:03:21 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I believe I've called the irc style semi-sentient before :P
00:03:49 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Has anybody tried showing fungot themself in a mirror?
00:03:49 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: ( c) ( ( a. d), e.g. fnord would have 5 mins left
00:04:37 <hppavilion[1]> (we need a pronoun for fungot. I vote fne ("fn" as in "fnord", "e" as in "he" and "she" and "me" and "e"))
00:04:37 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: by complications are u referring to implementing it
00:05:33 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OK, I still don't get it. <-- it was meta.
00:06:55 <oerjan> int-e: the st. Spaz monastery is probably far away. but they said the library itself _used_ to be a corbettite stronghold.
00:08:21 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Greenlock: And most certainly not something we do for all new users. <-- sometimes ais523 is around and does the boring black-and-white version instead.
00:09:50 <oerjan> <int-e> But that often requires subtlety, so I may have spoiled the chance now. <-- i am just backscrolled hth
00:10:02 <Greenlock> Oooh, the first mistake has been made. I may be here forever now.
00:11:10 -!- Greenlock has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:12:01 -!- greenlock has joined.
00:12:35 <greenlock> I purposelessly changed my name to lowercase.
00:12:47 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> (fne, fney, fnim, fnimself, fnis) <-- i think you have too many forms there
00:12:48 <int-e> ⊥ is a sleeping turnstile. (Seriosly. Look at ⊢ and explain how it keeps up this balancing act... it must rest sometimes...)
00:14:47 <int-e> Alias names: turnstile; proves, implies, yields; reducible
00:15:40 <oerjan> what kind of a name is "turnstile", anyway
00:16:24 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out the math behind http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4071
00:16:37 <int-e> a pictographical one, loosely based on turnstiles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnstile
00:16:43 <hppavilion[1]> Putting sum([x for x in range(1, 65)])/100 into python gives $20:80
00:17:30 <oerjan> int-e: beetleburg is in transylvania, and i've sort of been assuming mechanicsburg is not that far away
00:17:52 <oerjan> so the train trip must have gone through most of europe
00:19:15 <oerjan> but i guess all that eastern geography is pretty dubious
00:20:09 <int-e> > sum $ take 64 $ 1 : repeat 2
00:20:29 <int-e> > sum $ take 64 $ cycle [1,2] -- and that's the red button panel
00:22:47 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out the math behind http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4071 <-- i'm not sure there is one beyond "there is more than one sequence starting 1,2,...". although the final result is 2^7-1 pennies, i'm not sure how to get that logically from 64 cells.
00:23:05 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: fwiw, it had me puzzled for a few minutes when I first saw it last week.
00:23:40 <oerjan> that 20.80 was my first attempt too, since i'd seen a similar joke that used that series.
00:24:29 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Ooooooh <-- darn
00:25:45 <int-e> > sum [2^i | i <- [0..63]] :: Int
00:29:31 <lambdabot> No instance for (Fractional Int) arising from a use of ‘^^’
00:29:31 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘sum’, namely ‘[2 ^^ i | i <- [0 .. 63]]’
00:29:46 <greenlock> But why would the guy pick the chessboard over full-ride? Any obvious sequence of pennies would never add up to a reasonable sum.
00:29:48 <lambdabot> No instance for (Floating Int) arising from a use of ‘**’
00:29:48 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘sum’, namely ‘[2 ** i | i <- [0 .. 63]]’
00:33:50 <hppavilion[1]> greenlock: What's your favourite programming paradigm?
00:34:17 <greenlock> Why do I feel like this is a trap question? o-o
00:34:45 <hppavilion[1]> (Functional, Logic, Reactive, Event-driven, OO, some hyphen-separated combination of these, etc.)
00:34:51 <greenlock> OO is the only one I'm familiar enough with to be useful.
00:40:02 <oerjan> . o O ( JOIN USSS... )
00:41:03 <boily> join whom? what? why? how? can I pay in maple syrup?
00:41:29 <oerjan> boily: usss. haskell. because awesome. see link. yes.
00:41:47 <greenlock> Reactive is looking pretty interesting tho
00:42:07 <oerjan> boily: don't listen to hppavilion[1] he hasn't got the CPT symmetry straight yet.
00:42:58 <oerjan> if you reverse all, then supposedly physics stays unchanged.
00:43:09 <greenlock> I suppose this is reactive and functional?
00:43:33 <boily> Haskell is pretty nifty, yes.
00:44:28 <hppavilion[1]> greenlock: Though Haskell has the awesome tutorial I linked above
00:44:59 <hppavilion[1]> greenlock: I'd advise you learn Haskell first, as Haskell is kind of like the C of absurdly-high-level declarative languages
00:45:03 <oerjan> also, paying in ANTI maple syrup would destroy maple syrup, which is clearly a heresy.
00:45:49 <oerjan> of course with any luck, they'll find somehow that the CPT symmetry is broken after all.
00:46:06 <oerjan> and then they'll have to rewrite quantum field theory, or thereabouts.
00:46:41 <oerjan> (they already had to rewrite stuff when the _partial_ symmetries were broken.
00:46:47 <hppavilion[1]> I want to go into making the GOP paradigm. What type of parser should I use for the POC?
00:47:52 <oerjan> RAS syndrome strikes again.
00:49:04 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
00:49:20 <oerjan> now i'm tempted to replace that.
00:50:22 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
00:50:45 <oerjan> not made in an esolang, alas.
00:51:04 <oerjan> but has some esolang implementations inside.
00:55:19 <oerjan> `! unlambda `.!`.d`.l`.r`.o`.w`. `.,`.o`.l`.l`.e`.Hi
00:55:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Isn't HackEgo programmed in C? At least, the Unix is
00:56:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i don't know what languages Gregor used to write it.
00:57:14 <pikhq> Yes, though Gregor doesn't actually show up that often these days.
00:57:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: sjø means sea. it's also a kind of interjection stereotypically put at the end of sentences by people in mid Norway, sort of like canadian "eh"
00:57:31 <hppavilion[1]> How about a language that defines its own grammar?
00:57:43 <pikhq> For the reasonable reason that apparently being a professor takes a lot of time.
00:57:51 <oerjan> (in the latter case it's short for "you see", i think)
00:58:12 <hppavilion[1]> As in, you first use the body of a program to generate a parser (in a character-by-character BFy format, most likey)
00:58:28 <oerjan> pikhq: Gregor is online, but not on the channel. not that he was speaking recently when he pinged out.
00:59:02 <greenlock> But then you would need a parser to parse the parser.
00:59:04 <pikhq> Can't fault a guy for doing other things.
00:59:24 <hppavilion[1]> greenlock: No, the parser generation is done with a language similar to BF
00:59:35 <hppavilion[1]> greenlock: Character-by-character; perhaps stack-based
00:59:40 <oerjan> greenlock: he also wrote two other bots that are _usually_ on the channel, but they also got disconnected at about the same time.
01:00:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: glogbot and EgoBot
01:00:59 <greenlock> Seems like it would turn out less like a language and more like writing a parser in BF.
01:01:12 <hppavilion[1]> greenlock: No, but the parser it generates is then used to parse the same file
01:01:49 <greenlock> The entire program would simply be redirected the file input into the BF interpreter.
01:01:52 <hppavilion[1]> greenlock: I have a feeling that you would need to be a computational linguist to write, read, or design this language
01:02:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it keeps shambling along. we thought it had left for good once, but then Gregor put it back on. and we've never managed to get _all_ of its features properly transferred to HackEgo.
01:02:46 <oerjan> indeed some, like the ability to run esolang code from the web, isn't currently possible.
01:02:56 <hppavilion[1]> greenlock: You first evaluate the language character-by-character, THEN you evaluate the program with the parser it makes
01:03:36 <hppavilion[1]> (And you would obviously use something other than bf in many cases)I
01:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> Or, wait, doesn't fetch write to a file automagically?
01:05:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you cannot pipe fetch into other commands, it's not inside the sandbox.
01:06:03 <oerjan> i suppose you can do it with two commands, the first of which is `fetch.
01:06:22 <oerjan> might even use that `lastfile feature shachaf added.
01:06:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lastfile: not found
01:06:36 <HackEgo> bin/lastfiles \ bin/sedlast
01:07:16 <oerjan> still, for some things, EgoBot is still more convenient.
01:07:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: your self-parsing language reminds me of ais523's feather.
01:07:58 <HackEgo> sed -i "$1" "$(lastfiles)"
01:08:33 <boily> have feather existed yet?
01:08:35 <oerjan> int-e: it's a little buggy if the last command changed more than one file, i should think.
01:08:48 <oerjan> boily: if it did, it stopped.
01:09:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So what's a good type of parser that I should use for the GOP POC?
01:09:03 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:09:34 <int-e> oerjan: it should just change all of them? ... hmm, depends on whether lastfiles does multiline output
01:10:09 <oerjan> int-e: it doesn't. i think the hg output doesn't support it.
01:10:21 <int-e> `cat bin/lastfiles
01:10:22 <HackEgo> hg log -l 1 --template "{files}\n"
01:10:28 <oerjan> at least not with that method.
01:11:03 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to decide whether to allow backtracking
01:11:20 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like backtracking might be necessary for it to work
01:11:31 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: you can always revisit your decision later
01:11:55 <oerjan> we seem to be on a run
01:12:39 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Backtracking feels necessary for programming in a GOP, but it also seems like it might make things harder to understand. What are your thoughts?
01:13:22 <oerjan> my thoughts is that i have no intuition for this paradigm.
01:13:34 <int-e> > hg log -T '{files}\n'
01:13:35 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:12: parse error on input ‘{’
01:13:40 <oerjan> also, earley parsers are cool hth
01:13:44 <int-e> @botsnack (sorry!)
01:15:26 <hppavilion[1]> PEG.js throws errors if you even /try/ to left-recurse
01:16:32 <shachaf> oerjan: they're not good for security, though
01:16:39 <oerjan> in a sense, earley doesn't backtrack, but only because it keeps all possibilities in parallel.
01:16:45 <shachaf> the earley parser gets the worm
01:17:24 <int-e> `` hg log -l 1 -T '{files|obfuscate}' # meh
01:17:25 <HackEgo> hg log: option -T not recognized \ hg log [OPTION]... [FILE] \ \ show revision history of entire repository or files \ \ options: \ \ -f --follow follow changeset history, or file history across \ copies and renames \ -d --date DATE show revisions matching date spec \ -C --copies s
01:17:33 <int-e> `` hg log -l 1 --template '{files|obfuscate}' # meh
01:17:36 <HackEgo> ** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in <module> \ mercurial.dis
01:18:31 <int-e> `` hg log -l 1 --template '{author|obfuscate}'
01:18:33 <HackEgo> HackBot
01:18:49 * boily thwacks shachaf. a full 1.0 shachafs there.
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01:19:27 <oerjan> i think we overloaded greenlock.
01:19:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Why is it that the more complex a pun gets (earley parser gets the worm required knowledge of multiple fields of CS, PLUS knowing the idiom), the worse we find it?
01:19:51 <oerjan> whether with science or with silliness, remains unknown.
01:22:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's proportional to the damage caused by the necessary rewiring of the brain hth
01:24:06 <oerjan> in case of a > 3.0 shachaf pun, or more than five 2.0 shachaf puns in a 24 hour period, consult a doctor.
01:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> One of the things I want to support with my GOP is http://catseye.tc/view/specs-on-spec/mdpn/mdpn.markdown
01:25:25 <oerjan> see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ienp4J3pW7U
01:31:49 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If a shachaf pun lasts more than 4 hours, consult a doctor immediately.
01:32:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: How horribly inefficient is the algebraic matching of MDPN for a parser?
01:35:00 <int-e> `` hg files -r -1 'set:modified or added()'
01:35:03 <HackEgo> hg: unknown command 'files' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff diff reposi
01:35:24 <HackEgo> Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ (see http://mercurial.selenic.com for more information) \ \ Copyright (C) 2005-2012 Matt Mackall and others \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
01:35:57 <int-e> anyway mercurial makes this surpisingly hard
01:40:29 <boily> webcomic question: what was that webcomic again, with that girl who falls into a parallel world and she has purple scleras?
01:42:08 <oerjan> boily: it doesn't exist, you must have fallen here from a parallel world
01:42:44 <boily> of course it exists. it is not Canada.
01:46:40 <int-e> purple scleras webcomic ==> google ==> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Webcomic/Miamaska
01:50:42 <hppavilion[1]> I spent far too long finding the characters to type that message
01:51:20 <hppavilion[1]> The Unicode Keyboard <insert more Billy Mays here>
01:51:48 <oerjan> `unicode NOT IDENTICAL TO
01:52:03 <boily> what happens if you type Ctrl-Shift-U? do you get an underlined u, then can you type the codepoint for the character you need?
01:52:23 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Yes, but I don't have ALL OF UNICODE memorized
01:52:36 <hppavilion[1]> boily: In fact, the only unichr I can do off the top of my head is λ
01:52:45 <int-e> hmm, what input method is that...
01:53:10 <boily> I don't know. it works here.
01:53:31 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Input_Method
01:54:13 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I'm seriously considering making a unicode keyboard program that replaces certain characters when the right keystrokes are pressed
01:54:22 * int-e tends to use gucharmap anyway
01:54:55 <hppavilion[1]> Something like [CTRL]+\+<latexy-name>+[space|enter|comma|whatever]
01:56:15 <int-e> scim already has some latex table
01:56:37 <int-e> (but for some reason I didn't like scim when I tried it)
02:02:12 <Sgeo> Cells remind me of Smalltalk.. all full of stuff that goes back to the ancient past and not readily bootstrapable
02:02:27 <int-e> boily: I don't know.
02:09:30 <hppavilion[1]> I have decided on an alternative to CQS that I will adhere to from now on
02:10:21 <hppavilion[1]> You have a set of "primitive methods" for an object (possibly marked, perhaps by naming convention) and a set of "composed methods"
02:11:09 <hppavilion[1]> Primitive methods must adhere to CQS, but composed methods need not; composed methods may not directly interact with the object, but must rather use the primitive methods the same way an external object uses methods in general
02:11:44 <hppavilion[1]> This allows things like stack.POP() to be implemented while remaining sane to a substantial degree, as CQS encourages
02:12:08 <boily> quinthellopia! on Monday nights I'm usually there between 6:00pm and 6:50pm hth.
02:15:43 <boily> bonne nuitopia! I haven't forgotten The Snack Exchange!
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02:26:35 <hppavilion[1]> They make class diagrams for OOP', but I've never seen function diagrams for FP
02:28:34 <deltab> FRP? http://www.jaritimonen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/registration-form-bacon.png
02:35:33 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: boily is quebecois and speaks boilyese
02:37:01 <deltab> http://www.subtext-lang.org/OOPSLA07.pdf#page=14
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02:43:06 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> They make class diagrams for OOP', but I've never seen function diagrams for FP <-- http://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens
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03:07:21 <\oren\> DER SCHNABELTIER IST FLIEGEN!
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03:09:04 <oerjan> huh that's a funny false friend
03:09:36 <oerjan> de:Schnabeltier = en:platypus, no:snabeldyr = elephant(s)
03:09:51 <\oren\> I made a plane with a propeller on the front and a rocket engine on the back
03:11:13 <\oren\> so I decided to call it a platypus but in german for more rocketyness
03:11:22 <oerjan> (presumably because de:Schnabel = beak while no:snabel = trunk)
03:12:13 <oerjan> (en:platypus = no:nebbdyr, with no:nebb = beak, too)
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03:13:36 <oerjan> (also, technically en:elephant = no:elefant most of the time)
03:14:37 <oerjan> en:trunk = de:Rüssel, it seems
03:17:24 <\oren\> hmm, so schnabeltier is "beaked-thingy"
03:17:59 <\oren\> admittedly a platypus is hard to describe
03:23:00 <\oren\> I consider the fact it lays eggs to be the weirdest part
03:26:28 <FreeFull> Not sure where the Polish word comes from
03:36:46 <\oren\> propeller engines don't operate well in the stratosphere
03:38:22 <FreeFull> They operate really well underwater though
03:38:51 <FreeFull> \oren\: How about the fact that instead of nipples, a platypus has a smooth patch of skin that milk comes out of
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03:47:34 <FreeFull> \oren\: Echidnas also are egg-laying mammals
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05:26:33 <Sgeo> `slist [S] ACT 7 -- Homestuck finale
05:26:49 <HackEgo> slist [S] ACT 7 -- Homestuck finale: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
05:27:04 <shachaf> Now where was that autodeleting slist when you need it?
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07:01:39 <hppavilion[1]> Is it possible to implement call/cc in a way not requiring vast code restructuring (other than inserted functions) in λcalc?
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10:30:56 <b_jonas> this webpage has a label (on some fancy javascripted element to roll out a menu or something) that's supposed to be rotated right to fit in a vertical bar,
10:31:29 <b_jonas> but it has two CSS properties set to rotate it right, and the end result that it's rotated upside down and I only see two letters of it.
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13:58:12 <zgrep> @tell hppavilion[1] re: OCR, so just... metadata with regards to where the text is? Should it, err, figure that out itself?
13:58:19 * zgrep considers it to be noted
13:59:33 <zgrep> @tell hppavilion[1] oh, I see, also letter descriptions... but it would technically be better, I think, to have it "learn" than to have a general description of what a letter looks like... because that'd let it choose what it most easily identifies to be a particular letter.
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14:43:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46774&oldid=34218 * SuperJedi224 * (+87)
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15:19:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unicorn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46775 * 111.34.148.96 * (+556) Created page with "Unicorn is a very simple programming language. You can learn the basics of coding without needing special software. Everything is on this webpage, including this tutorial. The..."
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16:04:26 <myname> http://classicprogrammerpaintings.tumblr.com/ best. tumblr. ever!
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19:38:16 <HackEgo> devhydraz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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19:49:44 <myname> i came to the point at which i have no idea what i am actually doing
19:52:20 <gamemanj> myname: I think I may be missing context to this
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19:52:53 <gamemanj> correction, I think context may be missing, end of, given client uptime
19:53:56 <myname> i am trying to code stuff
19:54:05 <myname> and i am in lamda hell right now
19:54:17 <gamemanj> at least you don't have self-modifying instructions (I hope)
19:54:59 <gamemanj> (If you ever encounter a language with self-modification as a requirement to get things done, write a compiler to abstract it away!!!)
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20:35:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pieman2201 * New user account
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21:10:37 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a GUI library called AGLET (tested for windows 10, may work on other windows OSes, possible later support for *n?x and *n?x-like systems (probably primary developed by someone else))
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21:16:58 <hppavilion[1]> AGLET is really a backronym; I was naming it and I got AGL, but I wanted it to be pronouncable. And it was "AGL", so I named it "AGLET". Then I just needed to enter ET
21:17:50 <hppavilion[1]> AGL is "Anchorage [Graphical User Interface] Library"
21:18:05 <hppavilion[1]> ET I couldn't come up with a name for, so it's "(for) Extraterrestrials"
21:19:02 <gamemanj> another possible name: Anchorage Gui for Intelligent Living Entities: AGILE
21:21:34 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion[1]: A in AGLET = Anchorage is like G in GHC = Glasgow
21:21:59 <gamemanj> So if I want to learn Haskell, I need to take a trip to Glasgow. Got it.
21:22:25 <gamemanj> well, actually, "learning functional programming" would be a great excuse for a holiday
21:24:41 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: AGILE is also not a good name because AIs may or may not be allowed to use them
21:25:14 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Wait, but then it can /only/ be used by AIs
21:25:20 <hppavilion[1]> Or, at the very least, it cannot be used by women.
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21:26:06 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I believe the correct response is "Well played"
21:26:39 <gamemanj> Pop-tarts can sing. Why can't bananas? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/donotdelete_nyan.BytePusher
21:27:15 <myname> as a computer science student: women can be very logical
21:27:29 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yeah, I was just making a sexist joke because it was easy
21:28:09 <gamemanj> "just being a bad person"... as if that makes sense for the use of the word "just"
21:28:17 * hppavilion[1] considers saying exactly /how/ easy it is, relative to someone else on the channel's mother, but opts not to because he's been stupid enough for one day
21:28:54 <gamemanj> I think we should put hppavilion[1] on a recovery mechanism of BytePusher code and Brainfuck
21:29:15 <gamemanj> Haskell and GUI code is messing hppavilion[1] up
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21:32:01 * hppavilion[1] quietly searches for symptoms of drug addiction to further this joke
21:33:03 <hppavilion[1]> And it's just a little bit of haskell here and there; it's not like I'm writing a full haskell DSL for GUIs
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21:34:09 <b_jonas_> hppavilion[1]: yes, addiction always starts with just a little bit of it here and there.
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22:49:33 <oerjan> does anyone know the proper way in irssi to tell it to change to a different server when the usual one is not responding? everytime i try it i end up being logged in twice.
22:50:47 <oerjan> (i tried just waiting for it to time out first, but stupid dns chose the _same_ server for irc.freenode.net)
22:51:59 <int-e_> oerjan: I think the trick is to specify the network name. //connect -network Freenode servernameblahblub
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22:52:50 <oerjan> i don't think that is right, /connect keeps old connections.
22:52:51 <int-e> oh and you can specify several servers per network anyway
22:53:00 <oerjan> int-e: i have a long list.
22:53:31 <oerjan> it's just that the first wasn't working, the second is irc.freenode.net which resolved to the same as the first by accident.
22:53:38 <oerjan> also /rmreconns did nothing.
22:53:58 <int-e> I'm not sure how you end up being logged in twice
22:54:12 <oerjan> i think i don't want "i think" advice on this. i have guesse so many times wrong.
22:54:45 <oerjan> int-e: i end up logged in twice because irssi has no problem being logged in twice to the same network.
22:55:01 <int-e> do you just want something like /reconnect Freenode ?
22:55:18 <oerjan> although the other one never joined any channels, which means it doesn't work.
22:55:29 <oerjan> int-e: hmph, let me try that.
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22:56:20 <oerjan> int-e: no, that just reconnects to the _same_ server.
22:56:47 <oerjan> int-e: also, you did not take my hints that i don't want guessing advice.
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22:57:04 <int-e> I don't understand the problem
22:57:15 <int-e> anyway whatever goodnight
22:57:59 * oerjan needs to calm down before he bans int-e
22:58:52 <shachaf> int-e: you really dahled that one
22:59:54 <oerjan> i'm now angry at him for not understanding, and i cannot stop being angry because he's no longer here to listen to my explanation.
23:00:25 <shachaf> why are you angry at him for not understanding
23:01:48 <shachaf> oerjan: imo you should hug it out hth
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23:02:31 <oerjan> shachaf: he gives me advice that i can guess myself and which doesn't work, without understanding the problem. then just as he realizes he doesn't understand, he leaves.
23:02:45 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm not in austria
23:03:00 <shachaf> neither am i but it's never stopped me from hugging it out before hth
23:04:13 <shachaf> anyway what would be a better behavior here
23:04:23 <oerjan> anyway, what i want is a way to tell irssi to skip immediately to the next server in the freenode list, as if the current one has timed out.
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23:05:49 <shachaf> https://www.google.com/flights/#search;f=TRD;t=VIE,XWW hth
23:06:06 <shachaf> i don't know how to do that
23:07:06 <hppavilion[1]> But the only sort of software that is even /remotely/ generally-accessible for that purpose is spreadsheet software (and maybe personal databases, though I've never used one of those)
23:07:25 <lambdabot> zgrep said 9h 9m 12s ago: re: OCR, so just... metadata with regards to where the text is? Should it, err, figure that out itself?
23:07:25 <lambdabot> zgrep said 9h 7m 52s ago: oh, I see, also letter descriptions... but it would technically be better, I think, to have it "learn" than to have a general description of what a letter looks like... because that'd let it choose what it most easily identifies to be a particular letter.
23:09:36 <oerjan> shachaf: basically, i have a preferred freenode server (sinisalo), which is tried first. but everytime it is down it takes me > 2 extra minutes to start up irssi. i'd like some way to skip those 2 minutes.
23:09:59 <oerjan> and sometimes like today, by sheer bad luck with dns, it takes twice as long.
23:10:02 <shachaf> oerjan: i understand the problem
23:10:11 <oerjan> good, that's an improvement :P
23:10:46 <oerjan> the ironic thing is that i was just trying to start up irssi before doing something else...
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23:33:10 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> myname: I was just being a bad person. <-- please report to the next #esoteric sensitivity bootcamp hth
23:33:45 <myname> i want to go there, too
23:34:03 <oerjan> at the very least, you may get the boot
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23:40:35 <int-e> oerjan: fwiw, http://bugs.irssi.org/index.php?do=details&task_id=176 (and also http://bugs.irssi.org/index.php?do=details&task_id=175, but the former has a useful hint at the bottom)
23:42:41 <oerjan> it is possible that /server <address> thing is the closest available
23:44:29 <oerjan> perhaps the latter is why /rmreconns did nothing
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00:04:58 <HackEgo> irc/IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays.
00:06:29 <myname> my quote of the day: IRC is a frontend for google with insults
00:07:14 * boily updates the thing that becomes a PDF ♪
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00:10:42 <boily> > map chr [0x20..0x3F]
00:10:44 <lambdabot> " !\"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?"
00:19:12 <boily> question: is adu someone?
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00:21:31 <oerjan> why e has recently left us, no one knows.
00:22:24 * boily thwacks shachaf. 0.8.
00:23:00 <boily> question: what is Algae II? is it an esolang, or an abstract concept?
00:24:16 <HackEgo> Algae II, the successor class to Algae I. Discusses hydroponics and such.
00:24:37 <oerjan> boily: i believe it is a pun on algebra hth
00:24:50 <boily> abstract concept it is tdh
00:24:56 <HackEgo> boily boily oerjan hppavilion[1]
00:24:58 <shachaf> "Algebra II" is a standard high school mathematics class in the united states hth
00:25:37 <shachaf> but Algae II typically is taught to much younger children
00:25:50 <shachaf> as part of the Hooked on Hydroponics program
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00:34:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 1m 42s ago: <hppavilion[1]> myname: I was just being a bad person. <-- please report to the next #esoteric sensitivity bootcamp hth
00:35:03 <boily> hppavellon[1]. how do you typeset an ő?
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00:36:58 * oerjan is going to guess tromp has heard enough of those jokes to be sick of them.
00:37:23 <shachaf> oerjan: when did that ever stop this channel before hth
00:37:46 <boily> oerjan: tdh, but I was mislead by the error message. the ős were fine, I just forgot to escape b_jonas' underscore.
00:38:05 <shachaf> oerjan: didn't it read like a rhetorical question hth
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00:38:55 <oerjan> ending rhetorical questions in hth is scow.
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00:40:10 <boily> hppavilion[1]: updating the wisdom PDF!
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00:40:29 <shachaf> oerjan: what's the correct ending twh
00:40:43 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Why not just script it to generate a new wisdom PDF once a month?
00:41:23 <oerjan> `learn Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people that have no idea why they're here.
00:41:37 <HackEgo> Learned 'canaima': Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people that have no idea why they're here.
00:41:40 <oerjan> `learn Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here.
00:41:43 <HackEgo> Relearned 'canaima': Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here.
00:42:15 <shachaf> well, that would have just been another line of spam
00:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: My point is that oerjan didn't check if canaima was already defined
00:42:54 <shachaf> oerjan knows the wisdom database by heart
00:43:02 <shachaf> and anyway `learn confirmed that it wasn't defined
00:43:11 <boily> hppavilion[1]: well... it's *slightly* more complex than that. also, some people in this here chännel like to make my life harder by being LaTeXly creative.
00:43:20 <boily> I'm already missing:
00:44:05 <HackEgo> ^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the exclusive-or operator; ∧ (also notated by /\ or &) is the and (conjunction) operator; ^ (also notated by ↑ or ** or ⋆) is the power operator.
00:45:02 <boily> if you have a Github account, I'll add you to the List. you'll have Full Commit Access!
00:45:16 <hppavilion[1]> I do, but I probably should not be trusted with such a thing
00:46:37 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Unless you want e.g. a one-sixth-functional industrial-grade search engine for Wisdom that will never be touched again
00:47:07 <hppavilion[1]> Though an GUI for browsing wisdom- complete with links and a bit of markup- might actually be a good idea...
00:49:12 <oerjan> doesn't pdf support links these days anyway
00:49:30 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But it doesn't have a high-level scripting language
00:57:12 <boily> it does. Adobe Reader supports JavaScript.
00:57:41 <boily> also, did you know you could embede interactive 3D content in a PDF? in two widely-undocumented idiosyncratic formats?
01:01:06 <boily> brontosaurii had mapoly teeth???
01:06:36 <shachaf> oerjan: that's not the plural of brontosaurius hth
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01:07:13 <oerjan> it would be the vocative, though.
01:09:37 <boily> `le/rn Canada/We apologize for Canada's lack of existence.
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01:12:42 <oerjan> AVE BRONTOSAVRE. PINSENDI TE SALUTANT.
01:13:41 * boily untromp2016s tromp
01:14:00 <oerjan> i meant the canada. what was it anyway, the browser isn't loading.
01:14:43 <boily> you want to rebigscotlandify Canada?
01:15:26 <shachaf> oerjan: how about a command to view the previous version of a file
01:15:46 <boily> `le/rn Canada/Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big.
01:15:52 <shachaf> or even a list of the contents of every file that the last command modified, pre-modification
01:16:58 <oerjan> boily: hey i wasn't confirming
01:17:33 <boily> aarghghghrghrgghhghghrg.
01:17:49 <oerjan> i was trying to catch up to recent HackEgo changes
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01:22:48 <shachaf> HackEgo: you're too slow hth
01:23:35 <boily> `learn_append comics The content of this list is not to be questioned.
01:24:01 * boily mapoles the HackEgo
01:24:57 <boily> fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
01:25:53 <HackEgo> Can't open wisdom/comic: No such file or directory. \ Learned 'comic': The content of this list is not to be questioned.
01:25:56 <HackEgo> [11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,1555466973690094680980000956080767,13720946704494913791885940266665466978579582015128512190078...
01:27:46 <shachaf> `mkx bin/before//lastfiles | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; hg cat -r -2 "$f"; done
01:27:51 <boily> `` rm wisdom/comic
01:27:58 <HackEgo> wisdom/comic//The content of this list is not to be questioned.
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01:28:20 <shachaf> why is bin/before not in lastfiles twh
01:28:30 <HackEgo> hg log -l 1 --template "{files}\n"
01:28:34 <boily> `` echo -n ' The content of this list is not to be questioned.' >>wisdom/comics
01:28:40 <HackEgo> changeset: 7381:dd55338ff279 \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Apr 14 00:28:35 2016 +0000 \ summary: <boily> ` echo -n \' The content of this list is not to be questioned.\' >>wisdom/comics
01:28:49 <boily> bon. m'a finir par l'avoir, maudite commande de mes deux.
01:30:31 <HackEgo> Recommended comics include Genius Stick, Stuck Girl, and Home of the Order. \ The content of this list is not to be questioned.
01:31:21 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:31:24 <HackEgo> Recommended comics include Genius Stick, Stuck Girl, and Home of the Order.
01:31:56 <oerjan> `le/rn_append comics/The content of this list is not to be questioned.
01:31:59 <HackEgo> Learned 'comics': Recommended comics include Genius Stick, Stuck Girl, and Home of the Order. The content of this list is not to be questioned.
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01:33:56 <boily> ♪ DING ♪ new PDF version! updated #, A, B and C entries.
01:34:14 <boily> coppro: copprello! PDF update!
01:35:01 <shachaf> `learn Canada is a conspiracy invented by Big Maple to keep people from the truth.
01:35:04 <HackEgo> Relearned 'canada': Canada is a conspiracy invented by Big Maple to keep people from the truth.
01:35:08 <HackEgo> wisdom/canada//Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big.
01:35:15 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:35:46 <coppro> boily: Homestuck AND PDF
01:35:51 <coppro> it's like my birthday!
01:35:56 <shachaf> boily: we already have pbflist
01:36:01 <shachaf> boily: might as well add pdflist hth
01:36:09 <shachaf> if you can figure out how to make a backwards b
01:37:34 <boily> I should chapterize the *lists...
01:38:04 <boily> hppavilion[1]: I didn't catch your github username?
01:38:40 <boily> damn. I thought I was being smooth :D
01:38:56 <boily> you're playing hard to commit, I see.
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02:12:32 <boily> hppavilion[1]: one day you'll slip, and that info will be mine. mwah ah ah.
02:18:58 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I want to see a grammar-type that can parse all decidable grammars. That would be nice. Except for when people actually use it to parse a non-context-free grammar. Then it's just painful.
02:21:10 <hppavilion[1]> boily: A grammar type (like LR or LALR or Recursive-descent)
02:21:32 <hppavilion[1]> boily: That can parse all decidable grammars (including, for example, the Language of Primes in Ternary)
02:22:22 <boily> I have a feeling you'd hit Gödel sooner or later in there. probably the former.
02:22:41 <hppavilion[1]> boily: The tarpit version is BNF with the new operators $<rule>, <immediate-rule-name>++, and <immediate-rule-name>--{<rule1>}{<rule2>}
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02:23:13 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Probably not; It's just the grammatical equivalent of a TM
02:23:36 <boily> I don't remember, but I'll trust you on that.
02:23:52 <boily> CT and all that sort of thing, functors between TMs and grammars.
02:24:06 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Yeah, a TM is said to accept a string (as part of the language it represents) if... it halts. Shit.
02:24:37 <hppavilion[1]> I guess Godel might just show up in the form of the Halting Problem
02:25:23 <boily> time to go espouse the shape of a mattress...
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02:25:31 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Wait, no, but it's a BNF for all /decidable/ grammars
02:26:13 <hppavilion[1]> @tell boily [the moment after you left:] boily: Wait, no, but it's a BNF for all /decidable/ grammars // And halting is undecidable
02:28:34 <hppavilion[1]> "LR(k) grammars can be efficiently parsed with an execution time essentially proportional to the length of the string."[7]
02:28:34 <hppavilion[1]> For every k≥1, "a language can be generated by an LR(k) grammar if and only if it is deterministic [and context-free], if and only if it can be generated by an LR(1) grammar."
02:32:03 <hppavilion[1]> A parser that accepts an infinite string that follows some combinatorial pattern
02:32:55 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: A program to parse infinite strings in finite time, given that the infinite string is representable in finite space
02:33:14 <shachaf> Well, depends on how you represent it.
02:33:16 <hppavilion[1]> Using some sort of lazy-evaluated sequence combinators or somesuch
02:33:35 <shachaf> If you represent an infinite string as a Turing machine that generates it, for example, you won't have much luck.
02:34:22 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm thinking that you have some primitive set of generators (likely hauntingly similar to S and K, knowing the way CS works) that accept generators or strings and produce new strings
02:34:49 <shachaf> Well, you don't want anything Turing-complete.
02:37:14 <hppavilion[1]> A primitive set something like like cycle [...], reverse [...], chain [...], and filter f [...] (where f is some simple String -> Bool function defined in a sublanguage)
02:38:14 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and [...] is a special syntax for directly declaring a sequence
02:38:53 <hppavilion[1]> cycle seq is the first element in seq, then the second, then the third, forever
02:40:00 <hppavilion[1]> chain seq tfr returns each element in the first seq, then, when it runs out, each element in the second
02:40:35 <hppavilion[1]> And filter f seq returns each element in seq s.t. f returns true
02:42:13 <hppavilion[1]> f can be made from q NAND p, contains(seq1, seq2), firstNCharacters(seq, n), and c == d (where c and d are sequences)
02:43:26 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, contains has to be contains(seq, c) because f is applied character-by-character (if it isn't, we get dangerously close to tag systems)
02:44:43 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: And I figured there was a chance that you wanted to see my answer to your ~question
02:57:21 <Sgeo_> https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/4csbma/kickstarter_nonstarters_the_new_era_of_modern/
03:03:18 <\oren\> bah, the real future of computers is decimal!
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03:10:25 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The REAL future of computers is in pii-cimal
03:10:41 * oerjan wonders if hppavilion[1] has even heard of a general chomsky grammar.
03:12:13 * hppavilion[1] cannot find the wikipedia article on it, and is thus scared
03:14:37 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Are there any widely-used programming languages which are of a regular grammar?
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03:21:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think i used the wrong technical term. try chomsky hierarchy.
03:21:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: maybe forth counts :P
03:22:50 <oerjan> i don't know what else would count.
03:23:14 <hppavilion[1]> I WILL BE USING Van Wijngaarden grammarS FROM NOW ON
03:24:16 <shachaf> oerjan: chomsky is a linguist not a general hth
03:24:55 <hppavilion[1]> (strictly speaking, I will be using some modification I create that makes it uselessly more powerful; perhaps including the ability to recognize whether a given TM halts in later forms)
03:24:57 <shachaf> or is general chomsky's grammar related to general tso's chicken?
03:27:39 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a pseudo-solution to the Halting Problem that, given a program, will tell you whether or not it will halt, with the occasional possibility of false positives or negatives? (I (but not O) is forbidden for simplicity)
03:28:16 <hppavilion[1]> It would be cool if there was a pseudo-solution (sort of like those pseudo-counterexamples to Fermat's Last Theorem) that I could write into a compiler to freak out CS students who use it
03:29:24 <shachaf> If it doesn't halt, just tell them they haven't run it for long enough.
03:29:40 <shachaf> OK, just run it for BB(n) steps for small n.
03:30:05 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But you can write a program that /very clearly/ won't halt, but the compiler would still say it will
03:31:03 <hppavilion[1]> (alternatively, a language that is /very nearly/- but not quite- TC (including intermediate-level CS experiment problems and the kinds of things a CS student would test with, but excluding really obscure ones), for which halting is decidable)
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04:51:39 <\oren\> C without malloc is a push down automaton.
04:53:31 <\oren\> (unless you use undefined behaviour to write our own malloc)
04:55:01 <pikhq> C with or without malloc is a FSA.
04:59:26 <pikhq> On a purely unrelated note, is there a surgeon in the bay area who can replace my head? Because fuck my head.
05:00:55 <pikhq> In quite a bit of pain at the moment!
05:06:41 <shachaf> pikhq: might i interest you in this http://www.amazon.com/On-Having-No-Head-Rediscovery/dp/1878019198 hth
05:13:08 <shachaf> pikhq: do you just mean that you have a headache
05:13:57 <pikhq> Which is a common occurance for me.
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05:25:34 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: are you sure? (notwithstanding the bounded storage) you can access an arbitrary portion of the stack from C, which is vastly more powerful than PDA
05:26:51 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: one direct counterexample: http://mazonka.com/brainf/stackbfi.c
05:26:58 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Accessing other stack frames is, of course, UB. :)
05:27:25 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: unless you chain the existing stack frame with a pointer.
05:27:33 <pikhq> Right, yes, that's valid.
05:27:37 <pikhq> Like what you linked to there.
05:28:00 <pikhq> Neat trick, honestly.
05:28:09 <pikhq> If very much limited.
05:28:36 <lifthrasiir> I remember a similarly constructed BF interpreter which won in IOCCC
05:29:30 <pikhq> Though it's *slightly* incorrect: there may exist valid negative return values for getchar().
05:29:40 <pikhq> (i.e. EOF is not the *only* possible return value that's negative)
05:29:50 <pikhq> (this is because char may be signed)
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07:23:15 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, random reminders of the frailty of this mortal coil and your lifelong march to the inevitable end.
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09:38:44 <b_jonas> wow, explorer is now called "File Explorer" in windows 10?
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12:20:32 <b_jonas> Is there a way to do "git diff --name-status", "git diff --cached --name-status" or the combination "git status -s" but also show list unchanged files?
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13:21:30 <olsner> pikhq: I think even if char is signed, getchar() will return the "unsigned" value as an int
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16:35:17 <b_jonas> Why the heck can't we finally have a programming language standard library specification where the array sort functions and ordered-dictionary types and similar are specified in such a way that they spell out the precise guarantees even if the underlying comparison function is nondeterministic or not transitive?
16:36:16 <b_jonas> We don't live in the 1980s anymore when it made sense to write quicksort functions that will actually write the arrays out of bounds if the comparison function is invalid.
16:37:05 <b_jonas> I think most of the implementations we actually use are behaved sanely even for wrong comparison functions, but nobody bothers to guarantee this in specs, so I may have to read and fork existing implementations just to be able to guarantee this in the future.
16:37:18 <gamemanj> If the comparison function is nondeterministic or not transitive, then... is there any one correct sorted order?
16:37:40 <b_jonas> C++ specifically makes it undefined behaviour if you use a wrong comparison function, so it can use one of those qsort functions that just crash.
16:38:31 <b_jonas> gamemanj: no, but the sort function can still guarantee that it gives a permutation of the input, which is important, and it could still give bounds on the runtime.
16:41:08 <b_jonas> The specs can even go further, for compare functions that are partly well-behaved: if the range of values has a (non-observable theoretical) partial equivalence sigma, and a total order on the equivalence classes of sigma, and the comparison function behaves consistently right for two non-equivalent elements by comparing their equivalence classes, and can behave in any way for two equivalent elements;
16:41:41 <gamemanj> Simple solution: Why do you even have non-deterministic comparison functions in your code?
16:42:00 <b_jonas> then a well-written sort function could guarantee that the output is a permutation of the input such that non-equivalent elements are ordered correctly in the output.
16:43:45 <gamemanj> Under what practical situation do you get into such a situation?
16:43:47 <b_jonas> gamemanj: for bug isolation in cases when the comparison has a bug (I can point to at least one such case), or for implementing a safe high-level language that isn't allowed to crash but exposes a sort function or ordered-dictionary type with arbitrary comparison functions defined in that high-level language, including possibly sandbox languages that execute untrusted code.
16:44:01 <b_jonas> s/comparison/comparison implementation/
16:45:00 <b_jonas> The first case is entirely practical, for in theory you'd just implement the correct comparison function instead of a buggy one.
16:45:10 <gamemanj> Bug isolation, ok, that makes sense. As for a safe language that isn't allowed to crash... new byte[0xFFFFFFFF]
16:45:15 <b_jonas> The second one is both theoretical and practical.
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16:46:48 <gamemanj> "Safety" is impossible if the user can consume all the resources on the system, which means a completely safe language has to keep track of memory and CPU usage.
16:46:52 <b_jonas> gamemanj: oh come on, there are various different definitions for what sort of safety a language guarantees. I know a language (whether safe or not) can't be total, but some languages guarantee that they at least abort safely rather than trashing memory, even if you run out of memory. That's definitely theoretically possible (although there are practical bugs in implementations).
16:47:19 <b_jonas> gamemanj: I'm not going to try to spell out a particular definition of safety here, and there's more than one non-equivalent ones.
16:47:39 <gamemanj> The point I'm trying to make is that if sort goes into an infinite loop, there needs to be detection in place for this sort of case anyway.
16:47:57 <b_jonas> But even for a not-really-safe language like perl, it's better to use perl 5.8 (or something) which has a sort function that doesn't just segfault if you give it the wrong comparison function (as a bug).
16:49:23 <b_jonas> gamemanj: you can write a sort that doesn't go into an infinite loop even if the comparison function is wrong, but I'm more worried about duplicating and losing items of the array, or indexing past an array, rather than an infinite loop. Bad sort implementations do the latter two.
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16:55:47 <gamemanj> Well, a sort function should definitely not SIGSEGV or outright break if it's given a weird comparison function. To me, an infinite loop makes sense simply because if it's inconsistent, the array is never "sorted".
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17:52:04 <hppavilion[1]> I have managed to convince myself to a point of view where I don't see Hitler as evil.
17:53:50 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I see him as a deeply disturbed man who should have been seeing a psychiatrist instead of being put into a position of power
17:54:12 <hppavilion[1]> (and, if myname was responding to me, then the above message is directed at them too)
17:54:13 <gamemanj> So, basically, you don't see him as evil, you see him as nuts.
17:54:54 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: In fact, I prefer to see him as a person who genuinely /thought/ he was doing the right thing, but who was so screwed up that he didn't realize that what he was doing very clearly wasn't
17:54:54 <myname> how does being nuts imply not being evil?
17:55:11 <gamemanj> myname: Insanity defense, probably.
17:55:16 <hppavilion[1]> Now, it's not necessarily the accurate interpretation
17:55:36 <myname> so, you basically say chaotic evil doesn't have to be evil?
17:55:38 <gamemanj> And now for something completely different to break hppavilion[1]'s doublethink concentration: "Alas, poor yorick! I knew him, Horatio: A fellow of infinite jest..."
17:55:51 <hppavilion[1]> (I mean, Gravity also isn't "necessarily the accurate interpretation")
17:56:37 <gamemanj> Ok, true, it's not contradictory, it's just... how to put it...
17:57:20 <gamemanj> If you want to go into alternate theories like that, you might want to look at the British Empire and the state of India around that time.
17:57:42 <gamemanj> Then you'll find yourself saying "Everybody was like that at the time, Hitler was just a step further"
17:57:51 <myname> i wouldn't say that i need to believe i am evil is a necessary part in being evil
17:58:05 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: If we keep viewing Hitler as an alien-warlord-god-king sent from hell to do nothing but kill humanity, we lose sight of what is more accurate, that being that hitler was a deeply damaged human being who /really/ shouldn't have been put in control of a country
17:58:32 <myname> that still doesn't make him not evil
17:59:02 <gamemanj> Nobody said Hitler was an alien-warlord-god-king, and everybody agrees he shouldn't have been put in control of a country. Actions define morality, unless they have good justification.
17:59:07 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What he did was most certainly very, /very/ wrong, but if he does not realize that then I can't in good conscience consider him evil
18:00:30 <hppavilion[1]> This POV is not so much a meaningful opinion on things that matter as it is a way of conveying a message about the nature of morality
18:00:36 <gamemanj> So in your worldview, if I teleported the world's gold into the Sun, but I thought the gold was infectious or something, then I wouldn't be evil?
18:00:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: olsit: not found
18:00:50 <HackEgo> olist 1033: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:01:17 * gamemanj writes "1. Reprogram mind to assert that gold is infectious"
18:01:43 <gamemanj> but my post-mindwipe self would not.
18:02:10 <gamemanj> Which means my post-mindwipe self gets off scot-free since that's the version of me running around teleporting gold.
18:02:23 <myname> hppavilion[1]: have a look at the anime "eden of the east"
18:02:33 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: You (post-mindwipe) were just trying to help and do what you thought was right, so you can't be considered evil
18:03:06 <hppavilion[1]> myname: To consider them evil would be a perversion of the concept of right and wrong, IMHO
18:03:16 <myname> why shouldn't i be able to consider someone evil just because he doesn't himself?
18:04:15 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Because, traditionally (in the way everyone else sees it), evil means doing morality-- things even though you know they're morality--.
18:04:42 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: myname: The point of this exercise is not that "Hitler wasn't evil", the point is "Morality is hard, justice is complicated"
18:05:00 <myname> evil in a society means doing things against morality of the society, no matter of you actually knowing or not
18:05:14 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That can be how you define it, but that's not how I define it
18:05:28 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Solution: Eliminate justice, as it is an unnecessary complexity.
18:05:48 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I would call "doing stuff that society says you shouldn't do" is a "Moral Transgression" or something.
18:06:11 <myname> that's how societies work
18:06:13 <hppavilion[1]> myname: "evil" is when you sin (which is not the religious term, it's just one I stole from religion)
18:06:23 <gamemanj> So, basically, you have "doing something wrong but not knowing about it", "doing something wrong and knowing about it"?
18:06:54 <myname> yeah, i would call it intentional evil and unintentional evil
18:06:58 <hppavilion[1]> myname: And sinning is to violate morality despite knowing that morality says not to
18:07:19 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But I prefer to give them distinct names; just my preference.
18:07:20 <myname> just because you don't intend to do evil doesn't mean you don't
18:07:28 <gamemanj> I'm pretty sure that if you drank a ton of alcohol, and then, being too drunk to remember that you aren't supposed to drunk-drive, drove a car, and it crashed, you would still lose your license.
18:07:45 <myname> hppavilion[1]: so you are saying killing a person isn't a sin if i don't know better?
18:08:14 <hppavilion[1]> myname: OK, but should someone who commits an unintentional evil be punished? (assuming retributivism, which is a debate unto itself)
18:08:19 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i repeat my anime recommendation: eden of the east
18:08:29 <myname> it plays a bit with the idea of gamemanj
18:09:14 <gamemanj> another anime with a "fun" idea of morals: Death Note!
18:09:28 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: There's an anime about the mere concept of you?
18:09:47 <gamemanj> If there is, do tell them to stop stalking me
18:10:35 <gamemanj> (and inquire as to how they'd manage it without my noticing if the whole anime was about the concept of me, meaning they'd have to keep a close eye)
18:10:36 <myname> well, if you ever do anything remotely like watching anime, you most likely have alreqdy watched death note
18:10:44 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I chose the word "sin" because it fits with religion well
18:11:01 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Without (the tree of) knowledge, there can be no sin
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18:11:32 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that's great, so everybody can go to heaven if they just wipe their memories
18:11:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yes, but it wouldn't be "you" going to heaven
18:12:51 <gamemanj> So what happens if the first thing you do after doing evil stuff is wipe your memories of it, but store them in a way that you'll collect them after being deemed "not evil"?
18:13:13 <gamemanj> (Yes this is an obvious reference to something we have already mentioned.)
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18:39:46 <gamemanj> ^def feedlambda bf ++++++++[>++++>++++++++++<<-]++++++++++>>---><[->+>+<<]>-------------.++.+++++++++++++.+++++.-.-----.-------------.++.++++++++.<<<.>>>
18:40:30 <gamemanj> I was going to have fungot feed lambdabot with a botsnack
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18:52:43 <int-e> Fun... "Investigating possible switch failure impacting NLCKVME5-1, NLCKVME5-2"
18:55:06 <int-e> but freenode also seems to have some trouble
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18:56:15 <gamemanj> sets of people being booted off at a time, "some trouble"
18:56:42 <gamemanj> Or at least, that's what I think you call it
18:56:52 <gamemanj> I prefer the name "sticky tape", but whatever
18:57:04 <int-e> (NLCKVME5-2 is the server lambdabot's VM is on)
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18:57:38 <FireFly> We call it "silver tape" over here
18:58:57 <gamemanj> point is, find the pipes that are leaking connections, and cover it up with tape. Problem solved.
18:59:30 <FireFly> Luckily in these areas we usually have infinite tape
18:59:43 <FireFly> the #esoteric areas I mean
19:00:29 <gamemanj> infinite sticky tape and infinite programming languages that compile to other programming languages solves all problems
19:00:42 <int-e> gamemanj: if you're unlucky you'll just run out of oxygen
19:01:39 <gamemanj> ...wait, what, the pipes have ALREADY FLOODED the room???
19:07:22 <lambdabot> LOWI 141750Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW065 10/04 Q1013 NOSIG
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19:34:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Юᓂ곧⎔]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46776 * B jonas * (+1213) Created page with "'''Юᓂ곧⎔''' is an unfinished plan for a programming language by David Madore in the blog post [http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2004-12-03.0813.html#d.2004-12-03.08..."
19:34:54 <b_jonas> Question. Should I count Юᓂ곧⎔ as an ordinary esolang or a joke language?
19:36:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46777&oldid=46726 * B jonas * (+18)
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19:42:35 <shachaf> coppro: do you band with other scs of the hunt
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19:57:45 <int-e> centrinia isn't new
19:59:51 <hppavilion[2]> @ask variable What's it like being a Variable Constantinople? How do your countrymen react to you when you change values?
20:00:07 <hppavilion[2]> (I did not want to forget that joke before variable comes online)
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20:20:02 <ais523> slightly weird situation here
20:20:11 <ais523> I have a zombie process I'm trying to get rid of
20:20:24 <ais523> I attached a debugger to its parent and forced it to run waitpid/wait, but it blocks
20:21:42 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: Shotgun blast to the head should kill any zombie
20:22:07 <ais523> the normal advice is "to kill a zombie you kill its parents" but in this case the parent process is upstart
20:22:38 <ais523> that works but this problem has happened twice now
20:22:42 <ais523> and I don't want to reboot every time
20:22:55 <ais523> and it's not a situation that /should/ be able to occur (zombie process that doesn't show up on wait)
20:23:39 <hppavilion[2]> End-user programming is an interesting thing; however, the only form of it I know of that is accessible to non-programmers is spreadsheets
20:25:04 <hppavilion[2]> (And filter config and such, I suppose, but that is usually absurdly abstracted)
20:25:52 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: Are you in the TC camp or the TFP camp, OOC?
20:25:59 <hppavilion[2]> I think FSAs may actually be useful AND accessible for EUP
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20:37:39 <gamemanj> (in a "narrative" voice) "Little did ais513 know, the 'zombie' process was actually a cockatrice corpse."
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20:41:51 <ais523> so when I detached the debugger, my entire login session went down
20:42:01 <ais523> and the login screen program (IIRC lightdm broke)
20:42:14 <ais523> then when I shut down the system manually from ctrl-alt-f1, it didn't shut down
20:42:36 <ais523> and not even alt-sysrq-o could power the system off (alt-sysrq-b worked though)
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20:45:17 <gamemanj> If you didn't look at the logs, my theory was the zombie process was a cockatrice corpse.
20:46:38 <gamemanj> (Also, hydraz joined, left, then joined.)
20:48:27 <gamemanj> ...I also misspelt "ais523" as "ais513".
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20:50:52 <gamemanj> hppavilion[2]: I was explaining your comment because ais523 didn't see the context (the misspelling)
20:51:11 <hppavilion[2]> gamemanj: ais513 -> 513; ais523 -> 523; 523-513=10; .'. ais513+10=ais523
20:51:30 <hppavilion[2]> gamemanj: I invented a new pseudo-degree a little while ago, by the way.
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20:53:02 <hppavilion[2]> Clearly, ais523 was here last time I brought this up
20:58:16 <b_jonas> ais523: I made a page for the esoteric language Юᓂ곧⎔ . Does that count as a language or a joke language, for the purposes of esowiki?
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20:59:24 <ais523> let me look at the page
21:00:24 <ais523> b_jonas: given that it doesn't seem to define an actual language, just a source encoding
21:00:28 <ais523> I'm not sure it's a language at all
21:00:35 <gamemanj> people keep appearing and disappearing fast enough that I get the feeling it would be a bad idea to explain what happened while someone was out, since that would just ping other people and make more stuff happen
21:00:49 <gamemanj> which would lead to an endless cascade of stuff happening!
21:01:14 <b_jonas> ais523: encoding of the source of what?
21:01:16 <ais523> in my case, it's basically that the cable connecting the laptop to the router is temperamental
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21:01:24 <ais523> b_jonas: the Юᓂ곧⎔ program
21:01:44 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it's definitely not a full definition for the language
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21:05:32 <b_jonas> ais523: but there's an example that shows how to define the main function, how to call a print (or printf, who knows) function, so it's not very far from a very sketchy description from which you could make a small but full language. It needs some conditionals, loops, returns, local variable declarations, and either parameter or return type declarations.
21:05:55 <b_jonas> If you added those, it would already be a stack machine.
21:06:23 <b_jonas> So I think it's an unfinished language basically.
21:06:45 <b_jonas> Nobody completed a description or an implementation.
21:07:04 <gamemanj> "conditionals, loops" (etcetc.)? But adding all that stuff might make it less esoteric!
21:07:51 <gamemanj> ..."must not contain ASCII characters other than line feed"...
21:08:01 <gamemanj> So, basically, everything is UTF-8.
21:08:17 <ais523> it's non-ASCII, and stands for "next line"
21:08:25 <ais523> and many standards have it as a valid vertical whitespace character
21:08:28 <b_jonas> ais523: Yes, I was wondering on that. There's like three unicode characters like that. But I didn't define the language.
21:08:45 <ais523> although it's unclear what it's meant to do that's different from the other whitespace characters
21:08:49 <ais523> maybe it stands for a CRLF pair?
21:08:57 <gamemanj> Also, you better be Japanese if you want to use the language
21:09:13 <gamemanj> since that way your function arguments make sense!
21:09:29 <gamemanj> ...wait a sec... "and the corresponding name in katakana is used within the function definition."
21:09:46 <gamemanj> an interpreter actually has to map from hiragana to katakana!?!?!?
21:09:48 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it's just meant to unambiguously differentiate line separator from paragraph separator, just like how there are unicode characters to unambiguously split the ascii minus or the ascii quotes to different semantical and typographical values.
21:10:11 <ais523> b_jonas: so what's unicode for next paragraph?
21:16:27 <b_jonas> ais523: \x{2028} for line separator, \x{2029} for paragraph separator. both are different from NEL which is \x{85}
21:19:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Юᓂ곧⎔]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46778&oldid=46776 * B jonas * (+4)
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23:21:13 <lambdabot> ENVA 142150Z 11006KT 9999 FEW015 SCT040 BKN050 01/00 Q1002 RMK WIND 670FT 12004KT
23:21:41 <oerjan> and here i wrote my dad just two days ago claiming spring was a-coming.
23:23:17 -!- boily has joined.
23:25:34 <lambdabot> CYUL 142200Z 03011KT 30SM FEW240 09/M11 A3042 RMK CI2 SLP306
23:26:07 <boily> it's disturbingly warm today!
23:26:18 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 21h 5s ago: [the moment after you left:] boily: Wait, no, but it's a BNF for all /decidable/ grammars // And halting is undecidable
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23:26:27 <oerjan> balancing out trondheim, i take.
23:27:11 <boily> the Undecidement is Inevitable.
23:27:15 <lambdabot> ENVA 142150Z 11006KT 9999 FEW015 SCT040 BKN050 01/00 Q1002 RMK WIND 670FT 12004KT
23:27:43 <oerjan> it's been up to 12 or so in previous weeks
23:27:59 <oerjan> but then it all goes downhill again.
23:28:18 <boily> last week was undefined behaviour.
23:28:53 <boily> but the Bixi bikes are out! new season starts tomorrow! woot!
23:29:19 <boily> (probably won't be able to ride them until Saturday; today and tomorrow two cow orkers and I are at a formation.)
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23:30:16 <boily> also an Ottawa thing. and a Melbourne thing. and Paris, IIRC hth
23:30:37 <oerjan> well we've had public bikes in trondheim too. dunno if it's still done.
23:33:11 <boily> mynamello! they are public bikes you rent.
23:33:30 <boily> there are stations with locked bikes. you pay, pick one, ride, and lock it back at another station.
23:33:42 <oerjan> ok looks active http://www.bysykler.no/trondheim/kart-over-sykkelstativer
23:33:44 <boily> or you get a subscription, with a nifty magnetic key.
23:34:05 <oerjan> different system, presumably.
23:36:30 <myname> i like my folding bike
23:37:56 <Phantom_Hoover> i saw homestuck was trending on reddit and that the subreddit was all people complaining
23:38:08 <Phantom_Hoover> and i found this image which explained shit which has been obvious for ~4 years http://imgur.com/a/9ucF7
23:38:41 <oerjan> boily: iiuc the norwegian system uses a card
23:39:08 <oerjan> but otherwise sounds like you describe.
23:39:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it is.
23:39:54 <pikhq> Maybe now I'll read it.
23:40:31 <boily> oerjan: I'll take pictures.
23:40:52 <boily> glorious pictures, with closeups of all their fiddly parts. beautiful bikes...
23:41:02 <oerjan> boily: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncQsBzI-JHc
23:41:43 <boily> last time I clicked on one of your links I got a weird tune stuck in my head.
23:41:51 <boily> not sure if it's good for my sanity...
23:42:04 <oerjan> true. on the other hand this is on topic.
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23:48:12 <oerjan> also i haven't mentioned i've been on a weird al binge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss_BmTGv43M
23:50:11 <boily> this one is hilarious.
23:50:48 <oerjan> best laugh i've had in ages
23:52:24 <shachaf> boily: have you figured out what a pooch-down automaton is yet twh
23:53:33 <boily> hellochaf. simple: it's a stack of pooches all the way down. then it's turtles, that are pooches too.
00:06:57 <oerjan> the pooch-turtle theory of gravitational collapse
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00:18:01 <hppavilion[2]> Marketing seems like it would be less fun than engineering
00:18:24 <hppavilion[2]> In marketing, the phrase "what if we just...?" is not applicable nearly as often
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00:19:51 <boily> hppavilion[2]: hppavellon[1]. please github me your username. your codoctor is particularly nasty hth
00:21:37 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
00:22:31 <shachaf> in soviet russia, the evidence codoctors you hth
00:24:24 <oerjan> `le/rn soviet russia/¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
00:24:53 <HackEgo> wisdom/brontosaurus \ wisdom/lystrosaurus \ wisdom/russell's teapot \ wisdom/russia \ wisdom/rust \ wisdom/soviet russia \ wisdom/the torus \ wisdom/torus
00:24:58 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you are the one who added the codoctorwisdom. you are responsible for it.
00:25:00 <shachaf> Taneb: how do you feel about about being confused with a jackal twh
00:25:09 <HackEgo> wisdom/soviet russia \ wisdom/soviet union
00:25:57 <shachaf> boily: i've always assumed so
00:26:05 <shachaf> since the hebrew word for jackal is "tan"
00:26:20 <shachaf> but i didn't realize i'd always assumed so until just now
00:26:25 <hppavilion[1]> boily: You're welcome. Maybe you should stop using LaTeX because of Knuth's stupid crusade against Blackboard Bold and use some more good format
00:26:26 <boily> and -eb is is a Hebrew suffix for "like a jackal"?
00:26:44 * boily thwacks hppavilion[1] for spouting heresies
00:27:22 <oerjan> what crusade, i've use blackboard bold in LaTeX many times
00:27:46 <lambdabot> KOAK 142253Z 29017KT 10SM FEW025 FEW200 18/07 A3013 RMK AO2 SLP204 T01780072 PNO
00:28:37 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I mean blackboard bold beyond \mathbb C, R, Z, Q, and A (I think A is an option)
00:28:39 <oerjan> might require a package.
00:28:40 <lambdabot> PANC 142253Z 16003KT 10SM FEW065 SCT120 SCT200 11/M01 A2961 RMK AO2 SLP026 SH DSNT N T01111011
00:29:00 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: pretty sure N is included.
00:29:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: AMS math includes it (much to Knuth's dismay, I imagine), but only the common ones
00:29:04 <shachaf> Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport
00:29:06 * boily sings to some cute touhou remix ”la la la la la ♪“
00:30:26 <hppavilion[1]> I HAVE TRAVELED TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH TO CONCEAL MYSELF and it was just a coincidence, wasn't it?
00:30:28 <shachaf> why does everything have to be about you
00:30:45 <boily> hppavilion[1]: what am I not?
00:30:47 <shachaf> Actually I got it from your Github profile.
00:31:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it could have had _something_ to do with your mention that you're in anchorage.
00:31:22 <boily> oh, github! plase to gib me hppavilion[1]username for graet good!
00:32:19 <hppavilion[1]> I'll change it to East Virginia if that's possible
00:32:43 <shachaf> Did you know Ted Stevens or something?
00:33:38 <oerjan> is that a murder confession.
00:33:55 <hppavilion[1]> Needless to say, they are still trying to figure out how I convinced air traffic control I was a pilot.
00:34:15 <boily> . o O ( hmm... should I put "deniability" in the things chapter, or the tanebventions one... )
00:34:45 <HackEgo> Deniability was not invented by Taneb.
00:35:04 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
00:37:04 <shachaf> When I played Worms when I was young, when one side would win, its worms would say "Victory!".
00:37:22 <shachaf> But I thought they were talking about Queen Victoria.
00:37:58 <oerjan> `learn Victoria was the most victorious queen the world has ever known.
00:38:05 <HackEgo> Learned 'victoria': Victoria was the most victorious queen the world has ever known.
00:39:21 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn victoria/Queen Victoria is the most victorious queen the world has ever known, even having won at the not dying contest.
00:40:09 <boily> please refrain from learning things while I update the PDF hth.
00:40:27 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I'm sorry, I cannot properly integrate that information for some reason.
00:40:46 <boily> if you give me your github username, it'll help the matter hth
00:40:47 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it feels like a reference to something i have never seen.
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00:41:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The closest thing to a reference it is is the idea of being able to play a game against death where the stakes are mortality
00:41:45 <boily> hppavilion[1]: YES, AND IT DIDN'T WORK. *mumble grumble*
00:41:57 <shachaf> @google hppavilion[1] github
00:41:58 <lambdabot> https://github.com/cmatsuoka/codecgraph/blob/master/samples/hp-pavilion-dv7.txt
00:42:04 <shachaf> @google hppavilion[1] github account
00:42:05 <lambdabot> https://github.com/magento/magento2/issues/3407
00:42:12 <shachaf> @google "hppavilion[1]" on github
00:42:13 <lambdabot> https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/TaurusVM/blob/master/README.md
00:42:19 <shachaf> @google who is "hppavilion[1]"
00:42:20 <lambdabot> http://www.reddit.com/user/hppavilion
00:42:28 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Hint: When I first joined #esoteric, I didn't have the brackets
00:42:55 <boily> everybody's on reddit.
00:42:59 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Though I have a feeling you've already found me
00:43:51 <boily> especially fungot.
00:43:52 <oerjan> no, fungot is just on twitter.
00:44:03 <boily> fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOŐOOOOOOOOOT!
00:45:22 <hppavilion[1]> And what is the standard entertainingness of normal a got?
00:45:58 * oerjan feels like giving hppavilion[1] a CAPTCHA.
00:47:01 <oerjan> . o O ( we need a bot to send HackEgo commands so it stays responsive )
00:47:11 <HackEgo> lingpoirt dely horney atorbyllico saary foder hize kaisat reedici reba clar craw pably reuthesin gefa poassion ancr age latum scure
00:47:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But what happens when PokeEgo starts to lag?
00:47:36 <HackEgo> merintcoin kaycoin forcoin beartrovcoin xxvicoin concoin mechocoin crarcoin ]coin cadmiruntcoin mixingcoin lazcoin rocercolahcoin friecoin slycoin byterivincoin rffcoin brazempocoin 39.3coin attacoin
00:48:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: shouldn't be a problem if we just avoid cloudatcost
00:48:41 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: What about cloudisomorphictobutnotequivalenttocost?
00:48:49 <oerjan> hmph privileged commands don't get spell corrected i think
00:49:01 <shachaf> i don't know what isomorphism of cost is
00:49:10 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: pointful pointless pointy join
00:49:21 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I don't know what isomorphism is strictly, so I'm going to go google it
00:49:35 <oerjan> oh it was corrected but too far
00:50:11 <lambdabot> Enigmagic says: this calls for mfix and some tequila
00:50:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well, an isomorphism is a type of homomorphism
00:50:35 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: And homomorphisms map between algebraic structures
00:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, cryptocurrency is crypto- as in cryptography, not crypto- as in cryptozoology
00:55:16 <hppavilion[1]> A currency where units are higher-order functions rather than integers?
00:57:48 <HackEgo> infuckcoin rntnacoin raysnaircoin oriconcoin giblecoin wtfcoin xsmcoin judecoin bincoin flabtycoin 2-illumcoin msitiocoin stantioncoin rincoin alemichinercoin condiacoin kelectcoin blaugyonemibblinel-peturesparcoin jothenameofthecoin norcoin
00:57:58 <boily> ♪ DING ♪ D, E, and F!
01:08:10 <\oren\> i want a currency fixed to the value of plutonium
01:08:35 <\oren\> for mythological reasons
01:09:16 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Though would prefer rikj ("Rick J.") currency.
01:09:26 <boily> \oren\: he\\oren\.
01:09:35 <boily> \oren\: why mythological system, and why?
01:10:31 * oerjan thinks infuckcoin could catch on.
01:11:26 <hppavilion[1]> A cryptography system where a message is encrypted in such a way that the output message is variable by key used, so you plug in two messages (m, n) and two public keys (k, l) and it produces a cyphertext which when decrypted with k produces message m and when decrypted with l produces message n
01:12:19 <hppavilion[1]> WITH the property that one message can't be used to decrypt other messages
01:12:27 <hppavilion[1]> Preferably, you could have an infinite number of messages assigned to keys
01:13:18 <hppavilion[1]> This would be useful somehow and for some reason, I'm sure
01:15:14 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Any idea what commutative bihashing could be useful for?
01:19:44 <shachaf> oerjan: how about jothenameofthecoin
01:20:17 <boily> norcoin: Nortti's Coin.
01:20:32 <oerjan> jothenameofthecoin is pretty good.
01:21:53 <hppavilion[1]> boily: norcoin is based on NOR as its encryption algorithm
01:22:33 <HackEgo> cat: nooodlcoin: No such file or directory
01:22:46 <pikhq> That sounds like an exceptional crypto algorithm.
01:22:49 <HackEgo> cat: waaaalrus: No such file or directory
01:23:05 <pikhq> Almost as good as 2ROT13.
01:23:41 <pikhq> 2 rounds of ROT13, of course.
01:23:57 <oerjan> . o O ( time to start going back to `run )
01:24:00 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: NOR is actually better because many messages are undecipherable
01:24:33 <HackEgo> cat: echo: No such file or directory
01:24:40 <HackEgo> cat: bin/echo: No such file or directory
01:25:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `cat: not found
01:25:09 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....¤@.....@.......b..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....ø.......ø....................8......8@.....8@............................................@.......@.....W......W........ ............à]......à]`.....à]`.....°......`........ ...........ø]......ø]`.....ø]`.....à.......à................
01:25:23 <shachaf> `` echo -n 'noo' > /tmp/file; echo 'dl' > /tmp/file; cat /tmp/file
01:25:32 <shachaf> `` echo -n 'nooo' > /tmp/file; echo 'dl' >> /tmp/file; cat /tmp/file
01:25:36 <shachaf> `` echo -n 'nooo' > /tmp/file; echo 'dl' >> /tmp/file; cat /tmp/file
01:25:43 <shachaf> `` echo -n 'nooo' > /tmp/file; echo 'dl' >> /tmp/file; cat /tmp/file
01:26:25 <HackEgo> \ /bin/echo: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .init: \ \ 0000000000400ff8 <.init>: \ 400ff8:48 83 ec 08 sub rsp,0x8 \ 400ffc:e8 cf 07 00 00 call 4017d0 <__ctype_b_loc@plt+0x530> \ 401001:48 83 c4 08 add rsp,0x8 \ 401005:c3 ret \ \ Disassembly of s
01:26:34 <HackEgo> File: `/bin/echo' \ Size: 27008 Blocks: 56 IO Block: 1024 regular file \ Device: bh/11dInode: 393111 Links: 1 \ Access: (0755/-rwxr-xr-x) Uid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2016-04-14 17:00:49.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2013-01-26 21:07:42.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2014-01-29 02:35:46.000000000 +0000
01:27:05 <shachaf> just looking for the mtime
01:28:02 <shachaf> `` echo "random nooodl: $NOOODL"
01:28:22 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/noooooodl:noooodl is the correct spelling \ wisdom/pho:Phở is a Vietnamese soup invented by noooooodl to stress-test implementations of Unicode combining characters. \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
01:28:25 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/roll: line 17: ((: 0 < : syntax error: operand expected (error token is "< ") \ 0
01:29:10 <shachaf> `` cat wisdom/reflection /tmp/nooodl
01:29:11 <HackEgo> cat: /tmp/nooodl: No such file or directory \ cat.wisdom/reflection./tmp/nooooooooodl.
01:30:53 <oerjan> shachaf: i think hppavilion[1] may have passed on to the next subject
01:31:50 <hppavilion[1]> If one were to make a super-TC ASM, what kinds of instructions would need to be added?
01:32:13 <oerjan> shachaf: it happened _again_. marvelous, isn't it.
01:32:23 <hppavilion[1]> Where "take a program stored in memory and jump if it halts for a given input" is against the rules
01:32:32 <shachaf> i think oerjan may be making fun of you hth
01:33:19 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Basically, what is the simplest ASM instruction that /isn't/ dirty and over-specified that makes that ASM super-TC?
01:33:21 * boily prods oerjan with his mapole
01:33:28 <oerjan> i'm also making fun of shachaf's futile attempts at demonstrating the answer to the previous subject hth
01:33:46 <hppavilion[1]> (I formally defined "dirty and over-specified" yesterday for the folks on ##math, but I seem to have misplaced the link)
01:34:39 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: DOESITHALT hth
01:35:39 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: "Dirty and overspecified" is defined as "solves a single high-level decision problem and closely related problems instantly"
01:36:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So BUSYBEAVER and DOESITHALT are both D&OS
01:36:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: what about twoducks-like time travel, then.
01:37:51 <oerjan> returns to a previous time
01:38:17 <oerjan> i suppose it should also give a result there, like a continuation
01:39:16 <oerjan> hm not quite sure if that's super-TC
01:39:27 <oerjan> might just be feather-like
01:39:54 <shachaf> Someone in another channel reminded me of Vortex Math.
01:39:57 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhBymLCRIU8
01:40:31 <boily> oerjan: come come, don't be afraid of links!
01:40:33 <shachaf> oerjan: but it's so wonderful
01:41:39 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I don't think it's super-TC, because you could just record the program state at every moment in time up until now.
01:42:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: What you need for super-TC is one that can jump into the future (without doing the computation in between)
01:43:33 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If the FUCKAROUND command can deal with program-that-has-halted, it may be super-TC
01:43:38 * oerjan gets bored and quits before getting to actual "math"
01:43:57 <shachaf> oerjan: so you're saying you watched it to the end?
01:44:24 <oerjan> i put the quotes on on purpose.
01:44:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Wait, WINDBACK doesn't work, but SENDBACK does
01:44:57 <hppavilion[1]> SEND v a t sets the value at address a to v at the t'th execution step
01:45:33 <shachaf> oerjan: ok maybe i didn't make it clear what kind of video it was when i linked it
01:46:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: https://esolangs.org/wiki/TwoDucks
01:46:43 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: WINDBACK is just Feather, but SENDBACK can set a value before it has been computed
01:47:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: WINDBACK just needs you to save the current program state at every point in execution
01:47:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Speaking of super-TCness, I had an awesome idea. Did I tell you about it?
01:48:04 <oerjan> yes, then i promptly forgot.
01:48:09 <hppavilion[1]> (No, I'm not becoming a crank. This isn't about making a super-TC machine)
01:48:30 * oerjan prepares the amnesiac machine
01:49:14 <hppavilion[1]> Design and implement a relatively simple (but, for one not exposed to esolangs in prior, novel and interesting and seemingly useful) programming language
01:49:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It should be based off of a carefully-designed abstract machine, perhaps one that seems almost TC but isn't
01:50:04 <hppavilion[1]> Phase 2 is to devise a solution to the halting problem for this machine,
01:50:08 <boily> oerjan: hppavilion[1]'s a class D?
01:50:51 <oerjan> boily: no no, i mean to use it on myself, so i can forget it again
01:51:11 <hppavilion[1]> It should be rolled into a compiler for the language, because it's a simple enough language to justify compilation
01:51:13 * boily still suspects hppavilion[1] to be class D...
01:51:22 <oerjan> boily: that does explain so much
01:51:40 <oerjan> boily: either that or class Euclid
01:51:47 <hppavilion[1]> The compiler should, given a program, print an unassuming message saying "This program [will|won't] halt"
01:52:04 <hppavilion[1]> It should be part of a list of messages, so you don't see it immediately
01:52:43 <hppavilion[1]> Phase 3 is to give this compiler to first-year CS students under the pretense of them testing the language and looking for flaws, careful not to tell them any of this
01:53:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Then you wait for them to encounter a bug and read the compiler printout for guidance, and see this unassuming little message that just doesn't fit.
01:54:24 <hppavilion[1]> (And since the machine is NTC, it can be 100% accurate, but the machine has to /look/ TC, albeit some fudging with the documentation would be required)
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01:55:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: problem: halting depends on input, which is not known at compile time.
01:55:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Probably we just say the language doesn't have proper IO yet, so you need to give it batch input before it compiles
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01:56:12 <hppavilion[1]> (I trust that your average CS student won't question that)
01:56:21 <oerjan> also, if a language is "almost TC", then deciding halting will likely be a > lifetime-of-universe task.
01:56:56 <oerjan> because it's easy to create terminating languages that still take enormous resources.
01:58:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MDPN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46779&oldid=11116 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
01:58:17 <oerjan> oh total functional programming
01:58:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Total Functional Programming. An area of reasearch for languages that are not TC, rather being decidable
02:02:47 <shachaf> That was Knuth's instruction, right?
02:05:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DumbScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46780&oldid=9317 * LegionMammal978 * (+27) /* Download */
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02:08:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WILSON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46781&oldid=35507 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
02:09:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainFNORD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46782&oldid=21781 * LegionMammal978 * (+13)
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03:06:52 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Did you ever figure out left-associative SK?
03:07:04 <shachaf> no i hppavilion[1]ed it hth
03:07:47 <oerjan> i'm still thinking a bit about it
03:08:00 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Did you consider the tree representation?
03:08:19 <oerjan> in particular, whether you can do it with only initial (.) combinations
03:09:04 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Apparently, CL isn't supposed to be written with parentheses or `s, it's supposed to be drawn out as a tree
03:09:06 <oerjan> also, that okasaki paper solves the general problem
03:09:25 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Where the the child of a node is its arguments
03:10:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: So it might just be a problem of "can a singly-linked list where the child of a node is its arguments represent anything of use
03:10:44 <oerjan> http://www.westpoint.edu/eecs/SiteAssets/SitePages/Faculty%20Publication%20Documents/Okasaki/jfp03flat.pdf
03:10:47 <shachaf> "Flattening combinators"! That was the name.
03:11:04 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Wait, wouldn't cxyzabcdef be (((((((((c x) y) z) a) b) c) d) e) f)?
03:11:50 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: So it seems like what you're looking for is a way to encode a program in unary, then you stick that in a combinator where the number of arguments is the program
03:13:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But I have a feeling the proof is going to be "nothing interesting is possible"
03:17:19 <hppavilion[1]> What happens when you do purely-functional stack programming?
03:17:37 <oerjan> shachaf: i haven't yet been able to prove that you _cannot_ use just dot and (dot dot). not been trying that hard, mind you.
03:19:22 <hppavilion[1]> ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)) ;; Story of my life ;-;
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03:23:16 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you get underload, or slightly more mainstream, joy
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03:52:36 <oerjan> incidentally S and K alone don't work. i suspect adding I doesn't help.
03:53:18 <FreeFull> Maybe you could add something that forces things to associate differently
03:53:50 <oerjan> because Sabc = ac(bc). if a is K that gives nothing new. is a is S you end up in a recursion that eventually gives nothing new.
03:54:08 <oerjan> FreeFull: that's cheating
04:00:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Kaynato * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Daoyu Level Table.png]]": SWAPS is now a NOP at level 1.
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04:01:55 <oerjan> hm I might mess up the argument
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04:18:57 <\oren\> I am considering making an implementation of brainfuck in kOS, so m space probes can be controlled with brainfuck
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04:46:45 <\oren\> kerbal operating system is a mod that lets you program arbitrary actions into your probes
04:47:58 <\oren\> e.g "if we are below a certain altitude, lower landing legs and blast until speed is less than blah
04:49:10 <\oren\> using a programming language similar to BASIC
04:50:17 <\oren\> so even if you're using RemoteTech, you don't need your probes to have signal at all times
04:52:37 <\oren\> (i'm interested in using it to provide stationkeeping)
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05:02:06 <\oren\> I'm also working on a parts pack mod for ksp
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05:25:49 <\oren\> is "Watson Aerospace" a good name for a mod? or too generic
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07:07:13 <hppavilion[2]> Apparently, YouTube stores their views using signed integers
07:08:48 <pikhq> Not sure why they went with signed but w/e.
07:08:59 <pikhq> An int64_t is probably plenty.
07:09:28 <pikhq> At the very least, I think we've got other, more important engineering issues to worry about if an int64_t view count wraps around.
07:29:15 <HackEgo> olist 1033: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
07:34:38 <FireFly> I think that was olist'd yesterday
07:39:46 <b_jonas> (we'll need to make hackego track this or something)
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07:50:06 <lifthrasiir> probably the most surprising entry (to me) for recent years
07:50:42 <lifthrasiir> nobody will realize that this is an RFC 1321 implementation.
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08:00:56 <pikhq> That is quite surprising.
08:01:14 <pikhq> Unsurprising that it requires IEEE compliant floats though.
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08:04:10 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: oh great, the winners are out
08:04:15 <b_jonas> um, the source codes I mean
08:04:46 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: yeah, quite delayed but it's now there
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08:13:00 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: it does detect the faulty (well, x87) float ops though
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08:17:41 <pikhq> I suspect it doesn't detect other brain damaged floats, but that *is* the most likely one to hit people.
08:18:00 <pikhq> (well, okay, x87 itself isn't brain damaged. Just not quite what you want here.)
08:19:38 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: yeah, to be exact it is "unexpected". but the risk of double rounding makes it a faulty decision nevertheless...
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08:30:13 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: it's not that delayed. compared to some previous ioccc that is.
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11:08:58 <Taneb> I have an exam this afternoon
11:09:15 <Taneb> On linear optimization and its applications
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11:30:26 <Taneb> boily, can you help me boost my confidence
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11:48:20 <boily> Tanelle. I can try.
11:48:34 <boily> Taneb: what confidence do you need a boost with?
11:48:54 <boily> (please note that I'll only be available for confidence boosting for the next twelve minutes.)
11:49:37 <Taneb> boily, I have an exam at 2PM UK time
11:49:51 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Fri Apr 15 11:49:33
11:50:00 <boily> math exam, I presume?
11:50:33 <Taneb> Yeah, linear optimization and its applications in game theory and network optimization
11:50:41 <Taneb> Except I have no idea what network optimization is
11:52:00 <Taneb> I'm fairly sure I can get 70%, which is what I need to get the top grade in this module
11:52:11 <Taneb> But I'd like to do better than that so I can get the top grade overall
11:52:19 <Taneb> (I dropped a fair bit back in January)
11:53:19 <boily> well, when panicking take deep breathes, relax your shoulders, and try to edge your answer in according to the _intent_ of the question, not the question itself.
11:53:54 <boily> I doubt network optimization can be learned in a single hour. it sounds scary.
11:56:05 <Taneb> I might be able to learn it well enough to pretend I know it for the exam
11:56:09 <Taneb> It might not even come up!
11:57:58 <boily> follow the intents.
11:59:39 <boily> time for a shower, then second day of formattage. formatting. formationnery?
12:00:11 <boily> Taneb: good luck, optimize the fungot out of your exam, and may the tea flow freely in your veins!
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12:00:31 <Taneb> ...I don't drink tea
12:14:50 <Taneb> I'm going to get some water, though
12:14:58 <Taneb> Don't want to sit an exam dehydrated
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12:55:41 <FireFly> I usually buy a bottle of cola for my exams
12:56:02 <FireFly> Keeps me hydrated *and* acts as a caffeine boost
13:00:47 <shachaf> Taneb: whoa whoa whoa, don't drink tea?
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15:31:22 <fizzie> Didn't I just bring the got back.
15:32:15 <fizzie> Hmm. Neither of the two Freenode servers I typically use is answering.
15:32:26 <fizzie> (fungot can't do DNS, you have to point it at an address.)
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15:42:32 <fungot> b_jonas: so add " 1-" there which takes two arguments
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15:52:49 <zgrep> fungot: You mean you're subtracting DNA from 1? How does that work?
15:52:49 <fungot> zgrep: let's vote for the picture language, is there a " kernel"
15:53:02 <zgrep> fungot: Yes, it's just a dot.
15:53:02 <fungot> zgrep: i'm not aware of that one up? i'm working with a language that can be communicated between two human beings is fnord, fnord
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16:22:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sesshomariu * New user account
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16:52:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AssemblerFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46784 * Sesshomariu * (+1943) Created page with "'''AssemblerFuck''' is a language made by [[User:Sesshomariu|User:Sesshomariu]] and is a version of [[brainfuck]] that uses assembler-like words instead of symbols. == Specif..."
16:53:23 <rdococ> is it really that rare for someone's first esoteric language to not be a derivative of bf?
16:53:50 <Xe> my first esolang was lolcode
16:53:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46785&oldid=46777 * Sesshomariu * (+20) /* A */
16:53:58 <Xe> i ended up getting it running on a robot
16:54:18 <rdococ> do you mean you created lolcode or do you mean you used it?
16:54:32 <rdococ> I was talking about creating them
16:54:56 <rdococ> e.g. AF that Sesshomariu just made
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17:16:26 <lifthrasiir> rdococ: not sure what was my first esolang *exposed*, but Befunge-93 was the first esolang I really tried to write code in
17:17:52 <rdococ> lifthrasiir, what's the first esolang you *created*?
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17:23:27 <lifthrasiir> (I was also deeply related to the development of Aheui though)
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18:28:07 <hppavilion[wc]> For reference, while(x --> y) {...} is the "goesto" troll, where y usually equals 0. It is, of course, just while((x--) > y) {...}, which means it doesn't work if x < y (instead looping forever (in theory, though over/underflow fixes it in a hacky way)). It's a nice little readhack with potentially useful semantics, but it isn't intuitive in some cases.
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18:31:07 <hppavilion[wc]> x 🔫(0..3)= y means "x had better equal y by the time I count to 3, or else"
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18:33:29 <picobit> what's the oldest esolang in existence?
18:34:12 <hppavilion[wc]> picobit: INTERCAL is the canonical grandfather of Esolangs
18:37:23 <b_jonas> picobit: see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages
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18:39:47 <picobit> buddy of mine called Forth an esolang.
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18:46:47 <picobit> huh, I didn't know that L6 existed.
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19:21:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Piet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46786&oldid=21614 * 185.33.209.16 * (-262) /* Computational class */
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20:22:40 <rdococ> hppavilion[wc], I love your username, do you use it when you're on the toilet?
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20:26:17 <rdococ> hppavilion[wc], oh LOL I thought it meant water cabinet as in toilet
20:27:43 <int-e> wc = wrong channel
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20:33:38 <int-e> the water cabinet is where most important decisions of the parliament are made
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20:58:43 <zzo38> How would that work? I am not sure I see the point
20:59:49 <hppavilion[wc]> [xyz<ab>]* matches a repetition of x's, y's, z's, a's, and b's, but every time you hit an a the next a|b must be a b, then the next must be an a, then the next must be a b, ad infinitum
21:00:58 <hppavilion[wc]> You could do [^xyz{ab}] or something, which would be a way to not match ab (or x, y, or z)
21:01:11 <hppavilion[wc]> zzo38: Is there a more straightwforward way to do this
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21:07:07 <zzo38> O, OK I can understand what what you meant I suppose
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22:53:06 <HackEgo> partial order/A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category.
22:53:32 <picobit> anybody here ever work with flow based programming?
22:53:55 <HackEgo> `mk/Everything's better with `mk.
22:55:23 <Taneb> FireFly, I've been trying to give up cola after making myself sick on it a couple of months ago
22:56:01 <b_jonas> what will you replace it with?
22:57:04 <Taneb> b_jonas, I was mostly drinking it for the liquid and calories, so I've been going for water and actual food
22:57:12 <Taneb> And I've never really liked tea
22:57:34 <FireFly> Maybe I stole your taste for tea
22:57:57 <shachaf> FireFly: What kind of tea should I drink?
22:58:24 <b_jonas> I drink some coke and milk, but mostly I drink water and the sort of tea that's just empty colored warm water with no active ingredients.
22:58:51 <FireFly> I mostly drink black tea, like earl grey
22:59:16 <shachaf> I liked this oolong tea with ginseng that I had.
22:59:26 <shachaf> I had earl grey this morning.
23:00:26 <shachaf> But what other sort of tea should I get?
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23:03:07 <FireFly> Maybe you could try rooibos
23:03:13 <FireFly> It's not really tea per se
23:03:28 <shachaf> I don't think I'm a big fan.
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23:04:45 <hppavilion[1]> I have found a feature that haskell /should/ have but doesn't, and isn't emulatable AFAICT
23:05:14 <hppavilion[1]> Templatized functions (not like C++'s templates for polymorphism; more like C++'s templates with constants)
23:05:58 <FireFly> What about Template Haskell?
23:06:07 <FireFly> (disclaimer: I don't know much about Template Haskell)
23:06:19 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: I mean "maybe what I'm talking about is a thing in that"
23:06:34 <hppavilion[1]> Say you have an Int^n list and function trans :: Int -> t
23:07:08 <hppavilion[1]> You want to map trans over the individual bottom-level elements
23:07:56 <hppavilion[1]> The simplest solution is, of course, where n=2 tmapper2 = map (map trans)
23:08:17 <b_jonas> In rust, is there a way to convert an int32 to the float32 with the same bit pattern, or backwards, that is fast (doesn't require to call a non-inlinable function, preferably something the llvm can directly optimize away) and doesn't invoke undefined behavior? As a bonus, one that doesn't call unsafe stuff?
23:08:50 <hppavilion[1]> This is straightforward, but a little hard to read sometimes, and a bit crufty
23:09:17 <hppavilion[1]> What'd be nice if you could just say tmapper[n] = map[n] trans
23:10:01 <hppavilion[1]> map[n] func arr maps func over the elements of arr at the nth nesting level
23:10:46 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how the semantic rules of rust about undefined behavior work. Can I just ptr.write or ptr.copy from an int32 to a float32 and read the float32 without invoking undefined behavior?
23:11:05 <hppavilion[1]> It'd make the syntax of the language a little less pure, but it'd make code look better
23:11:08 <coppro> b_jonas: what language?
23:11:47 <hppavilion[1]> (Which is weird, given that it seems that x => y -> bad x => bad y, but it isn't true here)
23:12:48 <coppro> b_jonas: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/26163272/strict-aliasing-in-rust
23:13:15 <shachaf> FireFly: template haskell is a bit scow
23:13:32 <coppro> I still don't know what scow means, but I agree
23:13:44 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_scow
23:14:07 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: that sort of thing is what control.monad.*.class is for
23:14:13 <pikhq> I agree, template Haskell is a bit scow.
23:14:29 <coppro> pikhq: i'm a lens maintainer now. help.
23:14:44 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: you could also do it with a newtype
23:14:45 <b_jonas> coppro: I really don't want to break aliasing, I think getting or setting the representation of IEEE floats should be a builtin (but possibly rarely used) arithmetic op that the float32 module of the standard library should just export, but alas, it seems there's no such function.
23:15:22 <coppro> b_jonas: sounds like transmute can do it
23:15:28 * pikhq is curious if rust has reasonable floating point semantics.
23:15:31 <b_jonas> coppro: even this way, the rust standard library functions for float32 look way saner than the obsolate nonsense some languages try to provide, with no frexp or an exception when you divide on zero.
23:15:51 <pikhq> The *most* reasonable being "literally IEEE", of course.
23:15:59 <shachaf> coppro: Are you a maintainer or do you just have a commit bit?
23:16:08 <pikhq> Though I'll accept ISO C's semantics (as opposed to GNU C's).
23:16:24 <shachaf> Will you accept gnusto semantics?
23:16:24 <coppro> I don't consider myself actively responsible for it
23:16:29 <coppro> pikhq: what are the differences?
23:17:21 <pikhq> coppro: When using x87, GNU C will flush intermediate values from floating point computations to the stack by storing a double or float representation on the stack. Which imposes double rounding.
23:17:23 <Taneb> pikhq, iirc, Rust has a very cautious IEEE
23:17:54 <coppro> pikhq: why does that double round?
23:18:13 <b_jonas> pikhq: which iso C semantics? the c89 or the c99 ones? and with which settings if the latter?
23:18:26 <pikhq> Because all floating point operations are rounded, and on x87 the only precision it has is 80-bit float.
23:18:44 <pikhq> b_jonas: ISO C99 with the semantics in the amendment defining IEEE semantics..
23:18:52 <coppro> is that not ISO C semantics?
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23:19:06 <coppro> have to match the abstract machine
23:19:26 <pikhq> ISO C semantics say that the result of an operation on doubles is a double_t.
23:19:39 <pikhq> And on x86 a double_t is an 80-bit float.
23:19:47 <pikhq> (or "long double")
23:20:04 <pikhq> GCC implement it this way if you pass -std=c99.
23:20:05 <b_jonas> sorry, it's too late for me to think deep about floating point semantics. I did the research once, and wrote it down on a dense ugly handwritten paper which doesn't cover even half of it.
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23:20:11 <pikhq> But not -std=gnu99.
23:20:43 <pikhq> In GNU C you get double rounding *basically* when the optimizer sees fit.
23:22:47 <b_jonas> I re-read what the docs says
23:23:17 <b_jonas> and it seems to me that the rust rules do permit to copy the memory from an int32 to a float32 or back
23:23:49 <b_jonas> which is also why mem::transmute (which coppro kindly pointed me to) should work
23:24:05 <b_jonas> and that can probably be optimized fine
23:24:24 <b_jonas> so I can wrap that to define the four float-int reinterpret functions
23:24:32 <b_jonas> coppro: thanks for the nudge
23:24:36 <pikhq> http://port70.net/~nsz/c/c99/n1256.html#5.2.4.2.2 Here's the relevant part of ISO C99 describing float_t etc.
23:24:59 <pikhq> *This* bit is independent of whether or not you implement IEEE floats.
23:25:31 <pikhq> double_t is in math.h, sorry.
23:25:46 <coppro> pikhq: oh, I see, FP_CONTRACT
23:26:02 <b_jonas> (obviously rust still has a lots of rules about what you're permitted to do with pointers, but accessing memory that you're normally permitted to read as some other type is allowed, as long as you only write allowed values, but any bit pattern is allowed for an u32 so that's fine)
23:26:44 <pikhq> FLT_EVAL_METHOD describes the actual behavior of the floats, though.
23:27:58 <coppro> FP_CONTRACT is a pragma
23:28:28 <pikhq> GCC's implementation of floating point is slightly off. For instance, it apparently doesn't do that pragma.
23:28:51 <b_jonas> pikhq: no compiler does that pragma, neither gcc, nor msvc. both have some other ways of controlling the same thing though, in later versions
23:29:16 <pikhq> It's a shame. The ability to get floating point stuff working reasonably is, uh, why science people still use Fortran.
23:29:19 <b_jonas> pikhq: the problem is, the gcc equivalent can't be changed as quickly in blocks, but only to function level
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23:30:05 <b_jonas> pikhq: sure, but you can get them to work reasonably in gcc and msvc, you just have to know the magic compiler-specific incantations, and also the _default_ settings are sane for both
23:30:19 <b_jonas> (at least if you use at least -std=c99 as a base, and not an old compiler)
23:30:45 <pikhq> Yes, the default settings *in -std=c99 on recent compiler versions* are at least sane.
23:30:47 <b_jonas> those magic incanatations are part of my handwritten paper, which incidentally I really should make a photo and backup of now
23:30:54 <pikhq> Sufficiently so that for 99% of things they're what you actually want.
23:31:23 <pikhq> The problem being, of course, that -std=c99 isn't default, and getting the other things you might want aren't supported.
23:31:26 <coppro> pikhq: to be fair, the choice of a pragma is a stupid design
23:31:42 <pikhq> Not gonna disagree.
23:32:02 <b_jonas> coppro: what? why is that a stupid design?
23:32:08 <coppro> b_jonas: what is float f = a + \\ #pragma SOMETHING \\ b;
23:32:11 <b_jonas> coppro: at least in C99, where you have _Pragma
23:32:33 <b_jonas> coppro: no, but you can put _Pragma in brace blocks locally, even in a macro
23:32:47 <b_jonas> coppro: not in the middle of an expression, but in a brace block between statements
23:33:30 <coppro> b_jonas: yes, _Pragma statement makes sense, except that it's defined in terms of preprocessor
23:34:06 <pikhq> And ostensibly the preprocessor is a phase independent of the rest of compilation.
23:34:10 <pikhq> Except of course it isn't.
23:36:03 <b_jonas> coppro: no, that's just a historical accident, where improving the language is important, but everyone's lazy to rewrite the standard to use a more readable terminology, so the preprocessor is brought into the picture mostly unnecessarily. It happens all the time with changing M:tG rules too, but it's worse with the C and C++ standards.
23:36:06 <coppro> pikhq: of course it is
23:36:11 <coppro> pikhq: haven't you heard of _Generic?
23:36:21 <coppro> b_jonas: C is *really* bad
23:36:24 <coppro> C++ is not nearly so bad
23:36:45 <coppro> at least in this regard. C++ has other issues.
23:36:59 <coppro> I have friends who've been to both committees though
23:37:06 <coppro> C++ committee is awesome
23:37:23 <b_jonas> pikhq: also, because of historical reasons, the defaults even with -std=c99 aren't entirely reasonable, because they default to math functions setting errno, which is a complete waste, but in gcc you can -fno-math-errno to get the saner behavior.
23:38:41 <coppro> b_jonas: that's standard though, isn't it?
23:38:56 <b_jonas> coppro: C99 allows either, and defines a macro to tell you
23:39:30 <b_jonas> coppro: but I for one don't want to have the compiler emit an expensive conditional set for a thread-local variable every time I lrint an number.
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23:41:04 <b_jonas> coppro: the C++ committee hasn't caught up with the improvements in C. They're reluctant to take the changes because half of them is good (eg. floating point stuff) and half of them is bad (variadic arrays, and that "safe" standardd library stuff). But in practice that doesn't matter, because gcc still implements this stuff for C++ too (except there are a few conflicts, like how complex is a macro in C but an identifier in C++, etc), and even msvc is slo
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23:42:06 <b_jonas> Also, I'd like an lrint and lrintf variant that returns int32_t instead of a long
23:44:06 <b_jonas> I should make a slow interpreter for a high-level language that exposes ALL the sane integer and floating point and complex floating point operations on all types there are, because I've had enough of no language exporting the full set, even though C comes quite close.
23:44:12 <b_jonas> By the way, as for floating point stuff,
23:45:08 <b_jonas> I understand why the C++ committee added an extra function (not in C) that returns the squared norm of a complex number. But for the love of HNA, WHY DID THEY HAVE TO NAME IT norm?
23:45:53 <b_jonas> That's just so confusing! There are numerics-connected libraries that use the identifier norm to mean a non-squared norm, and when I use norm in two such clashing meanings in the same program it just gets horrible.
23:46:00 <b_jonas> WHY COULDN'T THEY FIND A BETTER NAME?
23:48:19 <pikhq> coppro: I suspect a lot of this has to do with a lot of the C committee pretending that certain vendors' opinion on things matter even when they haven't even bothered implementing C99.
23:48:53 <pikhq> For instance, the "safe" standard library stuff comes courtesy of Microsoft, because Microsoft is on the committee even though to this day they haven't implemented the *17 year old* C99 spec.
23:49:18 <pikhq> (and they have some pretty notable violations of C90 as well...)
23:50:20 <coppro> but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a little like hardware standardization
23:50:33 <coppro> which is a competitive, rather than collaborative, process
23:50:33 <pikhq> It's honestly worse than IBM's presence on the C++ committee because, while they insist on some frankly silly things sticking around because of mainframe, at least they *implement* the damned thing on the systems they want to keep supporting.
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23:50:45 <coppro> pikhq: trigraphs are gone
23:50:58 <pikhq> In the next revision of C++, but not the current one.
23:51:14 <shachaf> C++17 is going to be great.
23:51:14 <pikhq> Giving IBM time to stop using trigraphs.
23:52:09 <coppro> shachaf: file system library!
23:52:16 <pikhq> Are they just replacing them with digraphs?
23:52:24 <shachaf> coppro: Variadic fold expressions will be good.
23:52:26 <coppro> pikhq: digraphs don't cover everything trigraphs did
23:52:27 <pikhq> Ah, yes, it seems they are.
23:52:29 <shachaf> Or whatever they end up with.
23:52:31 <coppro> shachaf: yeah, those are sweet too
23:52:42 <pikhq> Yes, but digraphs cover everything that IBM needs.
23:52:44 <coppro> pikhq: basically IBM said "ok, fine, whatever, we'll just maintain our own compiler"
23:52:49 <shachaf> coppro: Writing variadic template code is such a mess.
23:53:14 <pikhq> The only *actual* problem is some of the digraph-encoded characters on EBCDIC codepages vary encoding depending on the codepage.
23:53:16 <shachaf> Do you have any fun variadic template puzzles?
23:53:25 <pikhq> But they all exist in real-world EBCDIC codepages.
23:53:34 <coppro> shachaf: tbh if they were redesigning templates they'd probably do it very different
23:54:27 <b_jonas> pikhq: yes, but funnily, I think the floating point control pragmas come from microsoft too
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23:55:45 <coppro> parallel STL is sweet too
23:56:16 <b_jonas> pikhq: also, in msvc 2015, they actually implement once-init local statics and constexpr and alignas and alignof and a lot of other C++ stuff (but not everything).
23:56:18 <shachaf> coppro: Why doesn't std::tuple expose a tail tuple explicitly?
23:56:26 <shachaf> Wouldn't that be a better API? HList-style.
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23:56:36 <shachaf> std::tuple is already pretty much HList, I guess.
23:56:48 <b_jonas> I still really don't like their compiler, but it's at least getting less bad. It's just that it's still like five years obsolate compared to gcc or something.
23:56:52 <coppro> shachaf: because it would require explicit construction
23:57:06 <coppro> b_jonas: MS is moving to clang
23:57:15 <b_jonas> So like the msvc five years into the future will be able to compile all my code.
23:57:20 <shachaf> Maybe I should look at how it's implemented.
23:58:09 <b_jonas> coppro: so I've been told, but I don't buy it. just look at it, the original reasoning was that they'd have to rewrite half of msvc just to implement constexpr. but now they support constexpr in msvc 2015. so what gives?
23:58:43 <coppro> b_jonas: are you sure that the frontend you're using there isn't clang?
23:58:44 <b_jonas> coppro: if "moving" means they'll use clang to compie their stuff instead of the shit they sell, then sure
23:59:18 <coppro> b_jonas: no, visual studio is moving to clang as its frontend.
23:59:26 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett.
23:59:38 <tswett> So let me see if I can come up with an ordinal number notation.
23:59:47 <b_jonas> coppro: no way... if it is, then it's a modified version of clang that gives worse error messages than gcc 1.95 gave
23:59:53 <coppro> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2015/05/01/bringing-clang-to-windows/
23:59:59 <coppro> b_jonas: ah, then I can't explain it
00:00:05 <coppro> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2015/12/04/clang-with-microsoft-codegen-in-vs-2015-update-1/
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00:00:54 <b_jonas> I mean, I know C++ templates and sfinae are _designed_ at language feature level to make it impossible to give sane diagnostics, but msvc gives horrible error messages even in simple cases, not only in the complicated template stuff.
00:00:58 <tswett> Each notation consists of a list of key-value pairs. Each key and each value is a notation. Every notation has an ordinal number as its value.
00:02:00 <tswett> There can only be finitely many key-value pairs. The keys must be arranged in descending order by ordinal value.
00:02:20 -!- hppavilion[wc] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:02:50 <tswett> Notations also have an ordering; this ordering is different from the order of the ordinal numbers they describe.
00:02:58 <coppro> shachaf: tbh I'm *super* excited for modules
00:04:36 <b_jonas> Seriously, msvc is so bad that even if the code you write will eventually be compiled only with msvc, it's worth to port some of it to be portable to non-msvc just to get sane error messages when developing it.
00:04:59 <tswett> The ordering of two notations is calculated as follows. If one notation is empty and the other is not, the non-empty one is later. Otherwise, look at their greatest keys (by ordinal value). If one key is greater, then its notation is later.
00:05:02 <b_jonas> I've done that with template code.
00:05:16 <tswett> If the keys are equal, look at the corresponding values (again, by ordinal value). If one value is greater, then that notation is later.
00:05:26 <b_jonas> Of course, then you get cases when your code is correct and gcc and clang both know that, but msvc can't compile it because it doesn't understand the c++ standard.
00:05:27 <tswett> Otherwise, discard the top key-value pair of each notation and compare the results.
00:05:50 <b_jonas> But even then, gcc or clang as tools help you figure out how to fix it.
00:07:07 <tswett> The definition of the function from notations to ordinal numbers is: The ordinal value of a notation is the smallest ordinal number which is greater than all of the values in the key-value pairs, and also greater than the ordinal value of any earlier notation.
00:09:54 <tswett> So, the big question is: are all notations well-defined?
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00:10:49 <b_jonas> fungot, are all notations well-defined?
00:11:20 <b_jonas> fungot: Kengyele, kantárja / a kádár munkája
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00:18:00 <boily> fizzie: IEUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHGHGHGLGHRHGLGHRLGHRLGLGLGLGLGLLFLBLFLBLFLBLBLBLBLBLFLFLFLBLBLBLBL!
00:18:35 <oerjan> tswett: i don't think it's well-defined. it seems like key = 0, value = a must be at least a for any ordinal, so there's nothing left for other notations.
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00:19:00 <tswett> oerjan: you can't get omega using only key = 0.
00:19:10 <coppro> boily: is the topic the most recent wisdom?
00:19:15 <coppro> it still says 2015 on the title page
00:19:26 <tswett> Like, the function f(x) = {0: x} doesn't have omega in its range.
00:20:17 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:20:47 <boily> coppro: I think so. I haven't updatitled, only contents.
00:20:48 <HackEgo> wisdome/The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom.
00:20:55 <HackEgo> egobot/EgoBot is my arch-nemesis.
00:20:57 <oerjan> oh you said the ordering was different.
00:22:07 <oerjan> shachaf: WAT, and here i thought this place was about alchemy and stuff
00:25:25 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, this place is about kitten typesetting
00:27:11 <pikhq> Not really alchemy, except as it applies to typesetting.
00:27:28 <pikhq> Which is surprisingly common.
00:27:42 <HackEgo> ginorst # wut?? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:27:47 <HackEgo> Ginorst is eht aillpr fo dgoo iikw aaeegmmnnt.
00:27:57 <boily> storing is the pillar of goot wiki management???
00:29:10 * oerjan wanted to give a hint in the last message, but then realized something...
00:34:14 <oerjan> what is it with fungot today
00:34:29 <int-e> oh oerjan's experimenting with some sort of encryption?
00:34:33 <boily> rosting? trisong? gnosirt? norsigt?
00:36:54 <oerjan> aacfhhs: aer ouy ersu?
00:36:55 <int-e> apparently there's only Sorting and Storing
00:37:14 <boily> I already suggested storing, therefore it's sorting.
00:37:30 <boily> also: is Hari a person, or a concept?
00:37:38 <boily> shachaf: probably Sting.
00:37:39 <HackEgo> Hari wears an identical suit every day. Or the same suit? The latter glitch would be a sign of adjustments on the Matrix.
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00:40:40 <hppavilion[1]> Most type theories (and, by extension, good type systems) are based on Formal Logic and use logical proofs to engineer new functions
00:40:54 <boily> hppavellon[42]! you are wisdomupdated.
00:41:07 <hppavilion[1]> But what happens if we throw logic and functions out the window?
00:41:27 <hppavilion[1]> And instead of functions we use, I dunno, constructions?
00:41:53 <int-e> I think you've crossed some line there.
00:42:03 <oerjan> int-e: in the first line imo
00:42:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: your first error is in assuming that throwing random stuff together is sufficient to be "interesting".
00:43:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I was thinking about it on my walk home and it seemed interesting
00:43:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I tried to figure it out, but I was walking and thus unable to visualize it concretely
00:43:29 <oerjan> well, geometry is the ancient logical subject
00:44:02 <int-e> what I was getting at, really, is that geometry is all about crossing lines
00:44:10 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, it uses logic, but it's a rather different logic IME
00:45:26 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I tried to figure it out, but I was walking and thus unable to visualize it concretely <-- the trick is to find a nearby beach with sand to draw in. and watch out for romans.
00:45:29 <int-e> that said, oerjan has a point
00:46:05 * int-e is going to let this discussion run in circles... and then move on to three dimensions.
00:46:24 <shachaf> 01:11 <@DarwinElf> shachaf, Warrigal, poll: best spiritual site? (mine in the topic, and the two it's influenced by and that are now probably still offline, aren't the easiest for most people, so we could list others like we used to)
00:46:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well it's pretty old hth
00:46:52 <shachaf> oerjan: do you have any good ones for the other #esoteric
00:46:53 <hppavilion[1]> (Though further thought led me to realize that you need something to take the place of functions. Or just functions)
00:48:01 <int-e> oh perhaps the discussion could also spiral out of control or move off a tangent...
00:48:21 <int-e> why are there so many geometric idioms...
00:48:23 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is there some glaring obvious reason a geometric type theory wouldn't work that I'm missing?
00:48:34 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i don't know.
00:48:39 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I think "tangent" was a thing before geometry and they both use the same thing
00:49:26 <oerjan> tangent is part of geometry
00:50:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: And the word may have been an already-existing word adopted by geometers (in its english sense)
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00:51:26 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: usually you should first have an idea of a mathematical object, then give it a name... you seem to be turning this process upside down, but it doesn't really work: "geometric type theory" has no inherent meaning.
00:51:41 <boily> coppro: ♪ DING ♪ PDF update!
00:52:10 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas
00:52:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: tangent is latin, and geometry is greek, so the latter is older hth
00:52:38 <shachaf> this channel seems to be unionized
00:52:39 <oerjan> (spot the error in this reasoning)
00:52:53 <oerjan> shachaf: we're very electrically neutral indeed
00:53:16 <int-e> oerjan: are you positive?
00:53:20 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: My point with it is that you have scalar types Circle and Line
00:54:07 <HackEgo> Jander was murdered, or deactivated permanently, depending on which side you ask.
00:54:16 <boily> ↑ this one here Jander.
00:54:56 <oerjan> boily: oh. someone's been adding scifi references to the wisdom. that one is asimov. come to think of it, Hari may be too.
00:55:12 <oerjan> although the Matrix is confusing in that context...
00:55:23 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/jander
00:55:42 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: And compound types called a Plot (which is like a labeled list or named tuple; not quite a dictionary because the "labels" are just compile-time macros)
00:56:09 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe something other than a Plot, but you get the point- a way of organizing constructions into nice neat groups
00:56:14 <oerjan> specifically, Jander was a robot. i've only read plot synopses.
00:56:43 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: And... hm... I seem to have done something wrong
00:57:20 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: My point at a high-level is "Type theory can be done with logical proof, so why not other proofs?"
00:57:56 <hppavilion[1]> The naive approach is just to include the primitives as types and have functions matching the postulates, but I feel like there's another, more interesting way to do it
00:59:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the proofs of geometry include logic, and on top they have mathematical objects that are being talked about. i think that kind of thing may generally lead to dependent types...
01:00:16 <oerjan> without dependent types, the logic only talk about the propositions themselves
01:00:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But I'm going for the ruler-and-compass constructive proofs
01:00:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Basically, I want to ruler-and-compass type theory
01:01:18 <hppavilion[1]> A type would be a series of circle constructions and line constructions, given an initial set of known points
01:04:49 -!- oerjan has set topic: Quite puzzling | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Oslo (not Christiania).
01:04:50 <hppavilion[1]> Huh. I suppose a type is something you can construct with a static series of steps and some points satisfying certain predicates
01:05:04 <oerjan> i felt nationally obligated hth
01:05:55 <Phantom_Hoover> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_axioms sets out a modern axiomatic framework for euclidean geometry
01:06:42 <Phantom_Hoover> can you prove stuff like the impossibility of the trisection with hilbert's axioms
01:07:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: probably?
01:07:37 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Are hilbert's axioms equivalent to euclid's axioms?
01:07:44 <oerjan> it's not like i've looked at the axioms in detail
01:08:12 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess you probably can, i was wondering if maybe you needed extra stuff to get all the necessary galois theory
01:08:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hilbert's axioms are basically filling in the loopholes because the ancient greeks weren't rigorous _enough_
01:08:25 <oerjan> but otherwise, should be.
01:08:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i still don't really understand what the point of axiom 4 of euclid is
01:08:57 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: How do you prove whether a triangle is isosceles? Is there some way to reduce it to the intersection or non-intersection of two lines?
01:09:26 <Phantom_Hoover> you can prove that two of its vertices lie on a circle centred on the third
01:10:00 <Phantom_Hoover> but in euclidean language i think you'd just say "the line segments AB and AC are of equal length"
01:10:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well you need to be able to talk about what it means for something to be constructible, i guess that might not fit inside the first order logic of geometry itself.
01:10:29 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but I need to know how I can check for equivalent-length lines
01:11:31 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Though I think I'll need some non-deterministic computing
01:11:37 <Phantom_Hoover> http://euclidthegame.com/Tutorial/ is a game that basically takes you through explicit constructions of a lot of these things
01:14:35 <boily> Phantom_Helloover. AAAAAAAAAURGH!
01:14:43 <boily> don't remind me of that timesink of a website!
01:18:04 <oerjan> boily: relax, have another weird al https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwvlbJ0h35A
01:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover> best weird al https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib2Vl7JEjfc
01:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, i was just saved by its incredibly bad solution detection refusing to identify my perpendicular
01:20:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:21:52 <oerjan> (btw it needs to be watched until the end hth)
01:23:41 <boily> again with that weird issue. I get sounds, but no picture. it happens on some youtube videos for no apparent reason.
01:24:00 <boily> Phantom's video's fine, tho...
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01:40:05 * boily lightly mapoles me4
01:40:10 <oerjan> another one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMCwiL6MZcY
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01:43:36 <boily> it's not a working gramophone :D
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02:23:42 <mad> I think I've figured it out
02:24:10 <mad> How to make a highly parallelizable CPU archi that can also be output from an ordinary C++ compiler
02:24:33 <boily> some kind of Verilog/C++ crossover?
02:25:18 <mad> no, just an instruction set that's easy to run lots of instructions in parallel
02:27:07 <mad> you have an accumulator. every instruction writes its result to the accumulater, and also optionally to a register of the regfile
02:28:04 <mad> the instructions that don't have a dependency on the accumulator are the first instructions of each 'group'
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02:29:30 <mad> also, each regfile register name can only be written to once, but you have an instruction to rotate regfile names and generate new ones
02:30:36 <mad> and the regfile is split into a few partitions so that values with different lifespans can be kept longer or shorter
02:31:09 <mad> so the cpu really only has 2 instructions
02:31:26 <mad> "generate N new register names"
02:31:53 <mad> "start executing a bunch of instructions at memory offset X"
02:33:00 <mad> the thing is, you can run another "start executing a bunch of instructions at memory offset Y", and you're guarenteed that it can run in parallel
02:33:35 <mad> because since every register is only written to once, you know that the group X and group Y will never write to the same registers
02:34:04 <picobit> you'll also need seperate memory segments.
02:34:16 <picobit> seperate methods of accessing I/O.
02:34:18 <mad> also if group Y reads from a register written to in group X, the register has a 'valid' flag and can simply wait until it's valid
02:34:30 <picobit> ways of guaranteeing race conditions don't happen.
02:34:38 <picobit> so.. there's a lot more than just a register file.
02:34:42 <mad> picobit : yeah, that's the catch... this solves arithmetic instructions but not really memory instructions
02:34:52 <picobit> mad: look into flow based programming.
02:35:00 <picobit> mad: that's truly a "shared nothing" paradigm.
02:35:25 <mad> actually I do have a plan for memory instructions too tho
02:36:07 <mad> memory instructions can also be instructions groups, with the catch that they can't have an accumulator
02:36:18 <mad> and they are run in-order
02:36:24 <picobit> you're basically re-implementing atomics.
02:36:49 <mad> yes but this can be output from a C++ compiler
02:37:05 <mad> there's no way llvm can auto-threadify general purpose code
02:37:19 <picobit> there's no way you can either.
02:37:29 <picobit> because why would you want to "auto-threadify" something.
02:37:40 <picobit> I don't want my application suddenly barreling off, spawning off four threads.
02:37:49 <picobit> I want to specify those threads and have control over them.
02:37:54 <picobit> mapping them to some useful work.
02:38:05 <mad> if your cpu has N execution units
02:38:19 <mad> you can keep it busy with N "micro-threads"
02:38:41 <picobit> okay, but you're not getting the fact that code is generally meant to be explicit about concurrency and parallelism, not implicit.
02:38:46 <mad> each unit is just an ALU + regfile write port + 2 regfile read ports
02:39:48 <mad> picobit : well, no this is a design to go get the 2/3/4 parallel instructions you can get implicitly
02:39:49 <picobit> again, I don't want my prime number sieve spinning off into different threads, nor do I want any other code of mine to do so unless I explicitly specify it, and I can, and I will.. with existing threading libraries.
02:40:17 <mad> like, it's just a fancy design for an out-of-order cpu
02:40:19 <picobit> your idea isn't really that useful when this exists as a solved problem. what you should focus on is better concurrency primitives.
02:41:50 <mad> my idea only has to be more useful than an out-of-order RISC in the style of the MIPS R10000 or quad-issue Dec Alpha or quad-issue PA-Risc or the x86 equivalents (3-issue amd athlon and so forth)
02:42:29 <picobit> but.. you don't solve anything, you just succeed in the fact that "yeah, we can now, without much regard to what we're writing, spawn off threads for things that may not need them"
02:42:46 <picobit> it's not going to be useful, we have out of order execution and atomic memory accesses already.
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02:43:02 <picobit> focus on some interesting methods of organizing concurrent systems.
02:43:12 <mad> if it's easy to build register files with dozens of read and write port and schedule a whole bunch of execution units then my idea is useless, right
02:43:14 <picobit> believe me, you'll find some untrodden grounds.
02:43:28 <picobit> mad: yeah, we call them threads and thread local storage.
02:44:19 <picobit> by all means don't let me stop you, just bear that in mind, you're inventing something that already exists.
02:44:20 <mad> picobit : If I was looking at a highly threadable load, then I'd go for a totally different design
02:44:39 <picobit> it's not even highly threadable. show me one instance where I'd prefer implicit threading.
02:45:07 <picobit> and by implicit, I mean "I don't have control over it and the compiler will automagically do it for me."
02:45:10 <mad> like, if you have tons of explicit threads, you only need a 2-issue in-order cpu with lots of cores and hyper threading
02:45:17 <mad> that's what the SPARC does
02:45:30 <mad> if anything stalls, move on to next thread
02:45:40 <mad> solves a ton of CPU design problems
02:45:41 <picobit> annnnnnnnd your implicit threading model would be akin tooooo...
02:45:59 <mad> it works for SPARC because it runs servers with dozens of concurrent programs
02:46:11 <picobit> yyyup, and we specify explicit threads.
02:46:16 <picobit> saving state, switching, etc.
02:47:02 <mad> my 'implicit threading' model is more like an attempt at doing hardware SSA
02:47:34 <picobit> ..static security analysis?
02:48:27 <mad> it's only a way to reduce the number of regfile reads and writes
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02:48:36 <mad> if you have a sequence like
02:48:49 <mad> sub r0, r1
02:48:54 <mad> mul r0, r2
02:48:57 <mad> sar r0, 16
02:49:05 <mad> add r0, r1
02:49:08 <picobit> you want to automatically parallelize calculations by duplicating regfiles.
02:49:14 <mad> mul r0, r8
02:49:20 <mad> sar r0, 16
02:49:23 <picobit> and running the same operations over those regfiles with local names.
02:49:49 <picobit> that's all well and good but be explicit in the how and where. we already have this kind of thing.
02:49:55 <mad> well, first step is that I'd use an accumulator
02:50:13 <mad> sub ac, r0, r1
02:50:20 <mad> mul ac, r2
02:50:24 <mad> sar ac, 16
02:51:02 <mad> excluding that the accumulator is also a register, it only reads from the regfile once per instruction except the first one
02:51:15 <mad> and it only writes to the regfile once at the end to store the result
02:51:38 <mad> instead of doing 2 reads 1 write per op like on the MIPS
02:52:30 <mad> now, that instruction sequence is serial
02:52:39 <mad> it cannot be parallelized no matter how
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02:53:32 <mad> so that cpu is slower than a pentium or a dual issue ARM as of yet
02:56:17 <mad> picobit : I'm sorry that this doesn't fall into your preferred topic of parallelization primitives
02:56:48 <picobit> mad: don't be offended by my criticism of your idea. any idea worth its salt will be criticised.
02:57:45 <mad> well, it's just a different design area
02:57:49 <mad> and a different fight
02:59:34 <mad> if you add the requirement of specially written c++ code to get the extra performance, then the mainstream approach is probably a combination of SIMD (SSE) and multi-threading
02:59:45 <mad> or giving up on c++ and doing GPU calculation
03:00:22 <mad> or potentially using a DSP architecture if it benefits from low-power/embedded stuff and is math-y
03:00:54 <mad> or using an FPGA
03:01:26 <mad> but that's all lower level than C++
03:04:20 <mad> the challenge I'm interested in is running single threaded C++ fast... does that make sense? :3
03:04:53 <mad> and potentially higher level languages, which all benefit from the same stuff as C++ generally
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03:14:19 <mad> picobit : basically you're criticising the whole idea of having fewer more powerful cores, rather than lots of small slower cores :D
03:15:26 <picobit> mad: no, I'm criticising your idea of what parallelism in terms of both execution and programming is supposed to mean.
03:15:31 <picobit> not interested in discussing it further.
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03:20:08 <mad> it's like, you throw me off tracks then lose interest... not happy... but anyhow
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03:34:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: twilight: not found
03:34:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: doomsday: not found
03:36:09 <HackEgo> facebook/Facebook is Taneb's face collection.
03:36:28 <HackEgo> /cat: : No such file or directory
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03:55:03 <\oren\> It was flying really well until it exploded
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04:00:23 <\oren\> but rather than changing the configuration, I'll just say don't pull more than 12 gees in this
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04:15:20 <zzo38> One thing I have design is the instruction set where other than reading the instruction opcode, there is up to one additional memory access which may be a read or write depending on the instruction (whether or not such memory access exists at all depends on the addressing mode, which is independent of the instruction code number)
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04:23:03 <hppavilion[1]> "Java syntax borrows heavily from C and C++, but object-oriented features are modeled after Smalltalk and Objective-C.[11]"
04:23:37 <hppavilion[1]> "Java syntax borrows heavily from brainfuck and Befunge-98, but object-oriented features are modeled after Smalltalk and Objective-C."
04:29:22 <zzo38> And then also s/Smalltalk and Objective-C/something else/ too
04:30:20 <zzo38> It doesn't necessarily have to mean both Smalltalk and Objective-C, or to add a new one to those two
04:34:03 <hppavilion[1]> {'HELLO WORLD'($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)(_::^::>)($::~::.)}
04:35:03 <hppavilion[1]> $ is sys, $::~ is stdout, $::~::. is sys.stdout.write
04:35:27 <hppavilion[1]> _ is tape, _::^ is current tape cell, _::^::> is... hm..
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05:08:26 <\oren\> so far my attempts to program in kOS have mostly resulted in crashes and expolsions
05:12:20 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Oh, looks like that Wikipedia article was deleted because it was someone's personal project, not a noteworthy thing
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05:33:06 <\oren\> kerbal operation system
05:33:25 <\oren\> and so far, I can't program a launcher
05:37:24 <\oren\> which means all my probes are going to need to have constant radio signal, so I have to launch a ton of relay satellites
05:37:57 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Please tell me it isn't a Billiard Ball Computer that uses gravity.
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05:40:13 <\oren\> no, it's a mod for the game which allows you to program your spacecraft to function autonomously
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06:04:02 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: do you ksp?
06:05:49 <\oren\> ah. Soon I'm going to release my mod (like, probably tomorrow)
06:08:04 <\oren\> so it will add some parts that I think should have been in stock
06:08:31 <\oren\> It will add RCS thrusters that run on oxidizer
06:09:07 <\oren\> and a fuel cell that uses intake ait
06:10:16 <\oren\> and saceplane parts with only fuel and no oxidizer in them
06:13:09 <\oren\> basically giving more latitude to make cool planes
06:16:23 <\oren\> and a fuel cell that runs on fuel and intake air allows to make cars that run like real cars kind of
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06:22:10 <\oren\> ooh. maybe I should add a resource called "MechanicalPower", parts that produce it from fuel and parts that use it?
06:22:24 <\oren\> That'll be in the next release I guess
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06:27:01 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, a programming language that crashes and raises an error when you program badly
06:31:24 <\oren\> don't most programming languages do that to some extent? especially C?
06:31:48 <pikhq> Nah, C doesn't reliably crash when you program badly.
06:32:00 <pikhq> Mostly what it does is behave very weirdly.
06:32:14 <pikhq> And especially bad programmers then rely on the weirdness and are surprised when it breaks.
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06:44:59 <mad> "gcc writers examine the C spec under magnifying glass to find a flaw that gets 0.1% extra speed but breaks in a corner case when compiled on non-x86"
06:45:26 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Perhaps a punishment is enacted if you don't adhere to the style guide? xD
06:45:45 <hppavilion[1]> Like the compiler won't work for 1.1^count minutes
06:46:25 <hppavilion[1]> Where count is incremented every time you try to compile without adhering to some style guide (described in a .sg file) and reset when you do
06:46:32 <mad> like how they figured that technically the spec allows them to crash if an int wraps
06:47:04 <mad> and of course the whole strict aliasing business
06:47:08 <zzo38> They could add options and attributes and so on in order to adjust such thing
06:47:26 <mad> there ARE options to turn off strict aliasing and the like
06:48:04 <zzo38> You might want to adjust them with more specifics though
06:48:07 <\oren\> -fno-strict-aliasing -fwrapv
06:48:10 <hppavilion[1]> mad: Wait, how does integer overflow result in crashes?
06:48:11 <zzo38> Rather than just on/off general.
06:48:50 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: the c spec doesn't define what '\x7F'+1 is
06:48:59 <hppavilion[1]> What is the most terrifying-but-slightly-cryptic command name?
06:49:05 <mad> hppavilion[1] : it doesn't
06:50:06 <\oren\> Hehehe I would be a TERRIFYING pilot if I worked for an airline
06:50:08 <mad> they pretend that integers never overflow for the optimization of replacing 32bit counter values with 64bit values so that the cpu doesn't have to promote the value to 64bits every time on x64
06:50:36 <mad> as far as I can tell
06:50:58 <mad> so code that works in 32bits might not work anymore if ints wrap
06:51:36 <hppavilion[1]> Also, I think languages with ADTs should have a `complex' keyword/ADT/whatever
06:51:57 <zzo38> At least in LLVM you could control type-based aliasing with more details, as well as doing other stuff that otherwise is messy or whatever in C, although there are some other problems with LLVM
07:10:28 <pikhq> \oren\: Depending on the implementations' other choices, there are two possible meanings of that.
07:10:35 <pikhq> It is either '\x80' or UB.
07:10:55 <pikhq> C doesn't say char is signed, C says char *may* be signed.
07:11:26 <pikhq> Also, char isn't necessarily 8 bits. :)
07:12:57 <pikhq> Also also, it's not just "technically": the spec literally says "signed overflow is undefined behavior".
07:13:14 <pikhq> It's not just a weird edge case, it spells it out for you that it is not defined behavior.
07:13:23 <pikhq> Just like the type aliasing rules.
07:14:09 <zzo38> I don't need signed overflow anyways in my programs generally, as I would use unsigned numbers in the cases where overflow wrapping would be useful anyways it would generally be more useful to use unsigned numbers in such cases.
07:14:38 <pikhq> Yeah. And C defines pretty exactly what unsigned overflow does.
07:15:46 <mad> char is like
07:16:00 <mad> it went signed on some places, unsigned on others, can't be fixed
07:16:08 <mad> everybody loses
07:16:11 <pikhq> Yup. So there's three variants of it.
07:16:19 <pikhq> There's signed char, unsigned char, and char.
07:16:22 <zzo38> You can explicitly set "signed char" and "unsigned char" when it cares
07:16:23 <pikhq> And now we're stuck with it.
07:16:25 <mad> it really should have been unsigned by default
07:17:00 <zzo38> But in some cases it does not matter if no arithmetic is being performed on it
07:17:01 <mad> I can think of one case for signed overflow
07:17:12 <mad> getting 0 when last bit is 0
07:17:20 <pikhq> Eh, for symmetry I would've preferred signed char to be default, but string literals to be unsigned char* (and all the C functions, and also the rule that char* can alias anything).
07:17:25 <mad> and 0xffffffff (-1) when last bit is 1
07:17:45 <mad> val << 31 >> 31
07:18:17 <pikhq> Bit shifting beyond the type's range like that on signed values is *also* UB. :)
07:18:29 <mad> how about decoding snes ADPCM
07:18:33 <mad> (4bit signed)
07:18:33 <pikhq> The reason is, well, frankly quite silly.
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07:18:43 <mad> with overflow: nibble << 28 >> 28
07:18:51 <pikhq> C does not require implementations to have 2's complement arithmetic.
07:19:07 <zzo38> There are other ways to do sign extend anyways
07:19:09 <mad> ok please tell me what non-2's complement platforms are left
07:19:20 <pikhq> I didn't say it was reasonable.
07:19:26 <pikhq> I in fact said it was quite silly.
07:19:37 <mad> well, C supports ebcdic
07:20:07 <pikhq> But that's the reason. C quite specifically wants to support 1's complement and sign-and-magnitude arithmetic.
07:20:22 <pikhq> To be fair, there at least *are* users of C with EBCDIC.
07:20:25 <zzo38> Two's complement is the only mathematically reasonable way anyways
07:20:34 <pikhq> Which is utterly unlike the other sign representations.
07:21:33 <mad> I think char should be unsigned becaucause signed char is fairly rare imho
07:21:37 <pikhq> zzo38: You're correct about that, and I am damned glad that's what we settled on.
07:22:02 <mad> basically small numbers such as 8 bit sound sample data (which is unsigned usually but signed makes more sense)
07:22:17 <mad> I've also used signed 8 bit in like compressed FFT data
07:22:22 <pikhq> Much like how IEEE appears to be the only reasonable floating point representation.
07:22:31 <zzo38> mad: You could write "typedef unsigned char byte;" if you want to abbreviate unsigned char I guess, or else to use #define
07:22:34 <mad> IEEE has its quirks
07:22:38 <pikhq> (mostly due to being the only one with usable semantics)
07:22:45 <pikhq> mad: Sure, but the alternatives are worse.
07:22:50 <mad> zzo38 : uint8_t
07:23:05 <zzo38> mad: Yes or like that too
07:23:06 <mad> zzo38 : it's the one in that standard types header
07:23:23 <mad> yes stdint.h
07:23:41 <pikhq> Which is also nice because if you compile on an utterly unreasonable system, your code just doesn't compile instead of running and failing horribly.
07:23:50 <mad> message to all people who use myLibSInt32 types and the like: use stdint.h
07:24:09 <pikhq> (reportedly there are such unreasonable systems, called "DSPs".)
07:24:23 <zzo38> pikhq: The case of floating points is different than the case of integers though. In the case of integers, two's complement is more mathematically correct, but in the case of floating point the representation isn't really mathematically correct but rather has certain properties of implementation, so it is different
07:24:27 <pikhq> Now that MSVC even supports it, there's literally no reason not to.
07:24:34 <mad> if you're on an unreasonable system, you're on a DSP and it's not like you're going to compile quake on that :D
07:24:55 <mad> or, like, arduino, which is 16bit C for some reason?
07:25:45 <zzo38> Two's complement is valid even for unbounded numbers
07:26:10 <mad> zzo38 : the real reason why IEEE is hard to beat is that it's what you can actually build in electronics
07:26:29 <mad> alternatives just don't translate into hw multipliers etc
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07:27:05 <mad> although you could say that there's a practical alternative... "IEEE except all the slow values like inf nan denormals are replaced by 0"
07:27:29 <zzo38> mad: Yes, so there is the reason like that. What I have said is just that it isn't quite the same reason as I have described at first, although the reason having to do with electronics does help with both two's complement integers and IEEE floating point.
07:27:43 <zzo38> (The mathematical reason I described at first was only for integers though)
07:28:01 <mad> btw, have you read about unums v2
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07:28:17 <zzo38> I don't know what that is
07:29:40 <mad> trying to find the paper
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07:30:17 <mad> http://www.johngustafson.net/presentations/Multicore2016-JLG.pdf
07:30:34 <zzo38> My own C programs are design for ASCII systems, although you might be able to run the program on EBCDIC systems by use of ASCII emulator I suppose; also by use of emulator you can even run program that use some feature not supported on the target system too in some cases.
07:30:59 <mad> v2 has fixed size numbers so it's a lot more reasonable... but: I'm pretty sure this doesn't scale to 16bit and 32bit numbers
07:31:20 <mad> ebcdic systems have 8bit bytes
07:31:50 <mad> if you simply ignore the platform's encoding then ebcdic disappears
07:33:45 <pikhq> If you don't rely on characters being particular numeric values, EBCDIC vs. ASCII doesn't really matter for most programs.
07:33:56 <pikhq> The big thing that causes issues is network programs.
07:34:34 <zzo38> TeX has stuff built-in in order to ensure that it will work with ASCII coding regardless of what coding the system it runs on uses
07:34:46 <pikhq> (FWIW, the '0' + x thing to get digits does work on EBCDIC. And *any* compliant C system, in fact. It's one of the few guarantees that C grants regarding the charset.)
07:35:38 <mad> I'm not even at that level of cross platformity
07:35:52 <mad> some of the code I've written has this in it:
07:36:05 <mad> #ifdef __BIG_ENDIAN
07:36:20 <mad> #error Code big endian support
07:36:35 <pikhq> Frankly, I just wish that the C spec would stop permitting utterly absurd implementations and require two's complement and UTF-8.
07:37:11 <pikhq> Allow me to grumble by listing the systems that people should care about that also don't do UTF-8: Windows
07:37:13 <mad> utf-8 libc in msvc would be a timesaver
07:37:15 <zzo38> I agree that it should require two's complement but should not require UTF-8 it should require ASCII (of which UTF-8 is a superset, so UTF-8 systems are compatible)
07:37:32 <mad> the utf-16 stuff in windows is ridiculous
07:37:45 <pikhq> zzo38: I would be happy with only requiring UTF-8 if wchar_t supports anything beyond ASCII.
07:38:13 <mad> because of it we have a type that's typedefed to std::wstring on windows and std::string on osx
07:38:35 <mad> with conversion functions that do the whole utf16<->8 thing but are nops on osx
07:38:52 <zzo38> I don't like wchar_t anyways
07:39:18 <mad> wchar_t is useful in some cases
07:39:46 <mad> mostly string processing on languages that aren't english but don't have characters past utf-16 either
07:40:16 <pikhq> Note also that MSVC's implementation of wchar_t is non-compliant.
07:40:40 <pikhq> wchar_t is specified such that you can't have a code unit composed of two wchar_t's.
07:40:43 <zzo38> Yes, although my own opinion is that it should not be a built-in feature.
07:41:01 <pikhq> i.e. if you insist on having a 16-bit wchar_t, you are required by ISO C to only have UCS-2.
07:41:36 <mad> I wonder how many programs break if you give them >64k unicode chars
07:41:53 <pikhq> Depends. Probably a lot on Windows.
07:42:10 <pikhq> Not that many on Linux or OS X though; both of those have 32-bit wchar_t.
07:42:32 <pikhq> And programmers that mostly just go "eh, char's UTF-8. Whatever." and it all works.
07:42:57 <mad> reminds me of that program that used this library
07:43:11 <zzo38> I will implement my own UTF-8 parsing in programs that need Unicode, which is rare anyways.
07:43:29 <zzo38> (In many cases just being 8-bit clean is good enough)
07:43:49 <zzo38> (And then it works with any kind of extended ASCII code which is compatible with ASCII)
07:43:56 <mad> problem: libiconv is lgpl
07:44:39 <pikhq> ... is only needed on Windows because Windows can't be assed to implement even the subset of POSIX that works reasonably in terms of Win32 semantics.
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07:45:35 <mad> the program in question used some obscure japanese encoding
07:45:44 <mad> as in: not sjis
07:45:51 <pikhq> (I mean seriously, not having strdup? Granted that it's a simple function, but WHY?!?)
07:45:59 <pikhq> Though that's not that obscure.
07:46:02 <mad> yes euc-jp
07:46:22 <mad> most programs that support like every crazy encoding
07:46:27 <mad> do not support euc-jp
07:46:43 <pikhq> Weird. It's used pretty heavily on the Japanese web.
07:46:53 <pikhq> Not as much as Shift-JIS, but still.
07:46:57 <mad> to even read the comments in the freaking code I had to import it in, like, open office
07:47:38 <pikhq> *Granted* that you basically won't see it outside of websites and Unix systems with really obstinate admins, but still.
07:48:15 <mad> also like all the string constants
07:48:19 <mad> were in that encoding
07:48:31 <pikhq> It was probably an old Unix program.
07:48:47 <mad> and it did all sorts of weird conversions so I didn't want to touch it
07:48:57 <mad> sorta yeah
07:49:00 <pikhq> Prior to Unicode's popularity, all Japanese Unix systems used EUC-JP.
07:49:09 <mad> it supported 3 encodings
07:49:28 <mad> eucjp, sjis and utf8
07:49:46 <mad> except all the dictionary data had to be in the matching encoding
07:49:52 <mad> and all the input/output
07:50:14 <mad> and basically the win32 version had sjis data instead
07:50:23 <mad> but I didn't have the source to that
07:51:31 <zzo38> There is also my own text character encoding design which is called UTCE and is meant for terminal displays rather than for typesetting anyways.
07:51:44 <mad> also: no way that I'll trust source code encoding
07:52:08 <pikhq> Legacy encodings. Sigh.
07:52:17 <mad> in theory it should be 'as is' but I'm not testing it
07:52:43 <mad> well, usually for C++ code it's really just latin-1
07:52:49 <mad> which is really cp-1252whatever
07:52:56 <zzo38> I always write the source code in ASCII
07:53:27 <zzo38> Therefore avoiding the problem to consider whether it is Latin-1 or UTF-8 or PC or whatever else it might be.
07:53:41 <mad> zzo38 : Obviously you haven't had to encode a list of french words that don't have liaison into c++ code
07:53:55 <pikhq> A reasonable approach if you can get away with it.
07:54:05 <pikhq> Unfortunately, not all is English.
07:55:01 <zzo38> That is true I have not had to do that, although in such a case I may have used escapes and then the code would contain whatever is needed to deal with whatever encoding it uses anyways so can avoid it, or else to use an external file for the list of words in case it will be extended later on too
07:55:12 <mad> it's like... is the svn client going to decide to reencode behind my back or something?
07:55:17 <mad> what about xcode?
07:55:46 <pikhq> Yeah... Everything but UTF-8 can go die in a fire.
07:56:04 <pikhq> Especially things that aren't supersets of ASCII.
07:56:28 <pikhq> But really, all of the legacy charsets should just go away.
07:56:49 <zzo38> There are many problem with Unicode
07:56:55 <mad> I've actually used latin-1 encoding for a good part of the french processing stuff
07:57:01 <mad> so it's not totally useless
07:57:03 <mad> but... yeah
07:57:14 <pikhq> Latin-1, or as I prefer calling it, UCS-1. :P
07:57:23 <mad> windows cp-1252
07:57:30 <mad> is the real name
07:57:48 <zzo38> Windows 1252 though isn't quite ISO-8859-1
07:57:54 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, but they are vastly outweighed by the problems of having a wide number of other incompatible charsets, some of which have the *exact same problems*.
07:58:06 <mad> yes, windows 1252 has useful chars from 0x80 to 0x9f
07:58:14 <mad> instead of more totally useless control characters
07:58:15 <zzo38> pikhq: That is true, some do have the same problem, and sometimes additional problems
07:58:24 <pikhq> I admit I'd like a nicer charset, but it's hard to say exactly how to get there.
07:58:34 <zzo38> But converting raw 8-bit data to UTF-8 is also same as converting ISO-8859-1 to Unicode.
07:58:47 <pikhq> And at least UTF-8 appears to mostly fit peoples' use cases and actually freaking work.
07:58:48 <zzo38> pikhq: Well I have made UTCE
07:59:01 <mad> zzo38 : except for the windows-1252 specific characters
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07:59:16 <zzo38> mad: Yes but then it isn't ISO-8859-1
07:59:33 <mad> if it's labeled as latin-1, it's not latin-1
07:59:40 <mad> it's really windows-1252
07:59:49 <pikhq> That's actually in the HTML-5 spec.
07:59:59 <pikhq> Which... matches real-world usage, as much as I hate it.
08:00:03 <mad> nobody actually uses the 'real' latin-1 with the 32 control characters
08:00:24 <zzo38> (You can convert UTCE to/from Unicode, although it is lossy either way, due to each missing characters of the other, some characters being ambiguous, and character widths sometimes differing)
08:00:25 <mad> because who the hell needs control characters
08:00:56 <zzo38> I use ASCII control characters in some applications, although that won't cause a problem with the C1 controls anyways since they aren't really ASCII
08:01:04 <mad> and basically they forgot œ in latin-1
08:01:20 <mad> so they snuck it into cp-1252
08:01:43 <zzo38> mad: That is a good correction yes, but it doesn't make it real ISO-8859-1
08:01:53 <pikhq> zzo38: The ASCII control characters will basically work regardless because, uh, I think everyone agrees on 'em.
08:01:54 <mad> nobody uses the real iso-8859-1
08:01:57 <pikhq> Even if ASCII doesn't.
08:02:00 <mad> it's not a valid encoding
08:02:08 <mad> nobody wants it
08:03:30 <zzo38> OK, although the command "utftovlq 81" converts raw 8-bit data to UTF-8, which in terms of Unicode text is converting the real ISO-8859-1 into Unicode so that is what it does, whether you want it to or not (you can use an external table to use custom conversion codes though)
08:03:57 <mad> it will break the day some guy writes œ in the text
08:04:28 <zzo38> Unless the program is being used incorrectly, it won't.
08:04:51 <mad> like, if you have 8-bit data
08:05:05 <mad> from western european languages
08:06:20 <mad> the one situation that it happens is that it's the default 8-bit encoding for these languages since basically forever
08:06:33 <mad> that encoding is cp-1252
08:06:35 <zzo38> The encoding "8" of utftovlq corresponds to raw 8-bit data and does not propose specific meanings to it. If you want specific translations such as CP-1252 then you should use the "T" encoding type instead, in which case you will need to provide the encoding table file.
08:06:58 <pikhq> mad: Well, not "forever"...
08:07:12 <pikhq> Admittedly, the one they had before it is an old DOS codepage that *nobody* uses anymore.
08:07:22 <zzo38> Therefore trying to use "utftovlq 81" to convert Windows-1252 to Unicode is wrong
08:07:50 <zzo38> I use the PC character set though sometimes, such as when I need 8-bit text, though
08:07:54 <mad> zzo38 : so it only encodes stuff that uses the first 256 unicode codepoints
08:08:00 <mad> which is an encoding that nobody uses
08:08:19 <mad> pikhq : right, though that was tailored to different needs :3
08:08:32 <mad> gotta have all those box drawing characters
08:09:21 <zzo38> mad: It does not actually impose that the UTF-8 data is Unicode codepoints either; it just treats the data as a list of 36-bit unsigned integers.
08:10:06 <zzo38> However the code types "u" and "U" are UTF-16 and deal with surrogates properly. The code types "w" and "W" however are raw 16-bit data, not UTF-16.
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08:11:08 <zzo38> Therefore "utftovlq u1" will convert Unicode text from UTF-16 to UTF-8. If you instead write "utftovlq w1" you will get what is called CESU-8.
08:12:43 <zzo38> (Note however that "utftovlq 1u | utftovlq u1" will convert any Unicode text in UTF-8 that happens to be CESU-8 into proper UTF-8, while leaving proper UTF-8 as is, so the input may be mixed.)
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08:15:10 <mad> I wonder if it would be possible to have a system that draws letters from the general characteristics of the font, rather than having a vectorial contour for each letter
08:15:51 <mad> so that if you had, say, a weird cyrillic letter in the text in chechen or something, it would automatically figure out how to do it in the style of the font
08:16:25 <mad> like you'd say "this is how a vertical stroke with serifs is done" and it would automatically combine strokes
08:16:43 <\oren\> Oh. I think that exists for chinese
08:16:45 <zzo38> Something like METAFONT can do similar things but would require the font to be precompiled anyways
08:17:38 <zzo38> If you modify the "vertical stroke with serifs" subroutine and then recompile it then you can get the version with different styles.
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08:22:26 <zzo38> So, such things already exists
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08:24:03 <zzo38> (It is sometimes said that METAFONT does not do outlines and only does drawing with pens of specified shapes; actually it can do both.)
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08:46:30 <zzo38> This sentence contains "this sentence" twice.
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09:03:32 <rdococ> This sentence contains "This sentence contains "This sentence contains "This sentence contains "This sentence contains "
09:08:28 <rdococ> This sentence isn't not false.
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13:21:38 <int-e> hmm, cleaning up my tmp folder... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/yesno.png is still brilliantly bad
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13:28:37 <myname> what is the "smallest" logic that differs between "alice likes dogs" and "alice likes every dog"?
13:31:34 <boily> int-ello, mynamello.
13:31:36 <myname> i.e. forall x: dog(x) => likes(alice,x) would be the later, but not the former
13:42:25 <int-e> . o O ( propositional logic... just assign true to "alice likes dogs" and false to "alice likes every dog" )
13:43:02 <int-e> I can't answer the actual question.
13:44:00 <myname> i may need to use something like: forall x: dog(x) => possibly likes(alice,x)
13:48:10 <int-e> or just some kind of class/instance concept. forall x: instance(x, dogs) => likes(alice,x) vs. likes(alice, dogs)
13:48:49 <int-e> (downside: you can't easily intersect classes... say, speak about yellow dogs)
13:49:21 <int-e> but you can circumvent the problem of constructing a "typical" instance... or whatever it is that "alice likes dogs" really talks about.
13:50:58 <myname> dog(x)vis oretry much the same as instance(x,dog)
13:51:24 <myname> currently i translate yellow dog as dog(x)&yellow(x)
13:56:25 <int-e> perhaps one can toy with a Bourbaki style operator... likes(alice, TYPICAL x. dog(x)))
13:57:42 <myname> i thought about something like that, but i guess that is equally bad to proove as is possiblygnecessarily
13:58:55 <int-e> Grrr... "monetizing" URL shorteners are awful.
14:00:02 <int-e> (Most of the link spam I see on IRC these days uses them.)
14:00:44 <myname> don't click on linkspam hth
14:00:54 <boily> monetizing? how can you monetize an URL itself?
14:01:35 <myname> khey, you want to open page x, thatjs fine. here is an app before i will put you there"
14:01:40 <int-e> The URL shortener has a trampoline page that displays ads. The person who shortened the link gets a share of the resulting profit.
14:02:05 <int-e> Hmm, installing an App is even better.
14:02:45 <int-e> Anyway, it's one of those business models that only complete assholes would come up with or run... so there's a ton of these sites around.
14:03:32 <myname> it's not as bad as these "want to see more nudes? make 2 million other people click this link"
14:03:51 <int-e> I disagree, it's just as bad as that.
14:04:39 * boily drinks more coffee to cleanse his mind off of these atrocities
14:07:04 <myname> i get mich less spam from these adfly thingies
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14:23:40 <boily> `relcome iconmaster
14:23:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember when minecraft modders started trying to monetise adfly
14:24:07 <HackEgo> iconmaster: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:24:37 <Phantom_Hoover> and when people started pointing out "this site is known to serve malware, we're not using it" they started massive drama and started making public blacklists and shit
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14:28:11 <iconmaster> And yeah, I recall that whole adfly thing, Phantom_Hoover. Hated the site. Glad people use CurseForge more these days.
14:40:12 <int-e> (I don't see those)
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16:05:50 <int-e> ....lovely spam, oh wonderful spam...
16:06:45 <HackEgo> 1213) <boily> I got my girlfriend through the previous job's intranet IRC channel, so I don't see how the two can conflict...
16:06:46 <HackEgo> 689) <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
16:06:46 <HackEgo> 4) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
16:06:46 <HackEgo> 161) <elliott> Vorpal loves the sodomy. <Vorpal> elliott, sure why not
16:06:46 <HackEgo> 1037) <kmc> would not be surprised to find out this tumblr is guerilla marketing by wolfram co to sell mathematica to stoners
16:08:32 <coppro> `addquote <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <int-e> ....lovely spam, oh wonderful spam...
16:08:39 <HackEgo> 1275) <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <int-e> ....lovely spam, oh wonderful spam...
16:09:23 <int-e> I should've said it 5 times.
16:10:36 <int-e> (or better, quote 5 different lines of that skit)
16:12:05 <int-e> Does it? My interpretation is that the conflict is between the girlfriend and IRC.
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16:51:35 <int-e> abridged context: <pikhq> Don't worry, all that happens when you hit 20 is you start IRCing less. <elliott> pikhq: what could possibly be a more important use of time, after all? * pikhq looks at girlfriend <boily> I got my girlfriend through the previous job's intranet IRC channel, so I don't see how the two can conflict... <elliott> pikhq: only an amateur lets that interfere with IRC time.
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16:54:09 <int-e> this is nice too... <boily> I'm completely drained, only a hollow shell of my past self.
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16:57:07 <gamemanj> Then I can go all around the world, every day...
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16:58:10 <zzo38> I would expect you would need more than a cloak to do that
16:58:58 -!- oerjan has set topic: Quite puzzling | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Chennai (not Madras).
17:00:45 <gamemanj> No, but I do wonder why on earth a Poetic Rock Orange Belated Linden Entity Master would exist in the first place.
17:00:57 <oerjan> next up, St Petersburg (not Leningrad)
17:02:54 <gamemanj> How far ahead have you planned this?
17:04:47 <oerjan> is Beijing (not Peking) acceptable, it's just a transcription difference...
17:05:15 <gamemanj> I'm wondering what on earth the general format is...
17:05:46 <gamemanj> Judging by the "just a transcription difference", though, you're selecting a place, then a place that is nearby or something.
17:05:46 <oerjan> well it started when someone else put Istanbul (not Constantinople) there. you might reason from that.
17:07:01 <int-e> Chemnitz (not Karl-Marx-Stadt)
17:07:26 <oerjan> gamemanj: nah a bit close. Paris (not Lutetia), maybe.
17:07:40 * oerjan knows about that because Asterix
17:08:29 <oerjan> i think this could go on for a while.
17:09:01 <gamemanj> Well, after parroting what little I know from history, I checked a wikipedia list. The full mess is: Londinium → Lundenwic → London
17:09:15 <gamemanj> Lundenwic sounds a bit further...
17:09:59 <oerjan> gamemanj: well those all are descended from each other, is what i mean.
17:10:19 <gamemanj> Well, since I have the cheat-sheet up anyway...
17:10:58 <oerjan> hm beijing has had other more distinct names
17:11:15 <oerjan> "Beijing, as Jicheng, was briefly the capital of the Xianbei Former Yan Kingdom."
17:12:10 <oerjan> _lots_ of distinct names, apparently.
17:18:24 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Beijing#Historical_names_of_Beijing
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17:23:06 <b_jonas> shachaf: what did you pbflist for? http://pbfcomics.com/ doesn't show a new strip
17:28:21 <int-e> I guess brand names would be too easy. (Audi, not Horch... famous pun...)
17:30:03 <HackEgo> 630) <itidus21> myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die. \ 678) <itidus21> the possession of diamonds by the bourgeois is more about establishing their bourgeoisness more than wanting a malleable metal <itidus21> oops i forgot i said diamonds instead of gold \ 688) <itidus21> ok in oth
17:30:50 <int-e> `` quote itidus21 | shuf
17:30:53 <HackEgo> 751) <itidus21> you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines \ 789) <itidus21> and all this time I thought we were talking about postmodern analysis of junk mail delivery methods and simulations of elephant breeding patterns \ 774) <itidus21> world peace is for fascists \ 771) <itidus21> elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years
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17:59:11 <int-e> `` quote itidus21 | wc -l
17:59:18 <oerjan> today carbon, tomorrow helium
18:00:21 <int-e> hmm all I could find is this rather old news... http://phys.org/news/2013-11-three-dimensional-carbon-metallic.html
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18:02:51 <b_jonas> int-e: um, isn't that just graphite? if I understand correctly, graphite is when each carbon atom uses three of its electrons for covalent bonds to form a planar hexagonal grid of all carbon atoms, and donates one electron for a metallic bond that ties the sheets together. how is this different?
18:04:09 <b_jonas> ah, I see, it's a stronger version with the three covalent bonds already tying together the whole thing, but all theoretical because they don't know how to synthetize.
18:04:46 <b_jonas> like those magical really tiny solid state memory thingies that are impossible to manufacture short of assembling it atom by atom
18:05:06 * oerjan [citation needed]s gamemanj
18:05:42 <int-e> b_jonas: yeah, not in particular that the red C atoms have 4 bonds
18:06:00 <int-e> so it's a really funny structure
18:06:16 <b_jonas> but that makes it even worse, doesn't it?
18:06:29 * oerjan currently playing tatham's slant puzzle
18:06:32 <b_jonas> I mean, it would have less metallic electrons, so it would be a worse conductor probably
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18:07:01 <oerjan> it's not very hard any more, so it somehow becomes a speed challenge.
18:07:43 <b_jonas> don't trust me though, I'm not a chemist. ais523 is the channel chemist.
18:08:22 * oerjan once aced the highschool chemistry exam. but that was also the last time he really touched it.
18:09:48 <b_jonas> oh, I aced a few of those too, because they were usually choose-an-answer tests from a single book, so we just cheated by using a key for that book
18:09:58 <b_jonas> but that doesn't make me a chemist
18:10:22 <int-e> b_jonas: I couldn't say... there should be enough free electrons around.
18:10:33 <oerjan> felt pretty good as i recall
18:10:34 <b_jonas> our chemistry lessons were so random I've got all possible grades
18:11:36 <int-e> so much pressure...
18:12:03 <gamemanj> all possible? including A minus 82.47655 recurring, with potential bias 28.01GU?
18:12:43 <oerjan> gamemanj: that may not be a possible grade hth
18:13:18 <gamemanj> that implies it's something which could be called into question, it's definitely not a possible grade
18:14:13 <oerjan> gamemanj: well i'll admit it's probably a possible grade in some hypothetical universe hth
18:14:46 <oerjan> a _very_ pedantic one.
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19:09:23 <zzo38> Since I have the boom of PC Technical Reference then possibly I can make up a program to emulate the IBM printer of PC.
19:10:07 <zzo38> My calculation is that the DVI units for this program should probably be 1/11880 inch (which is coarser than TeX)
19:13:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, I don't really understand what you're saying
19:14:01 <b_jonas> why are the DVI units 1/11880 inch?
19:14:34 <zzo38> Since that divides all measurements needed to emulate it, as far as I can tell from the documentation of the printer
19:16:41 <zzo38> Do you know about the IBM printer codes? I have the book of it so hopefully I can implement it.
19:17:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: I know a little bit, because I've had an Epson matrix printer when I was young, and the manual for it, and I think it's a bit similar
19:17:55 <zzo38> Yes; I have also read Epson manual and from the IBM printer document it seems that the Epson is a superset of the IBM codes.
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19:20:55 <b_jonas> The Epson matrix printer can print formatted text with built-in or uploadable fonts, as well as bitmap graphics. It has nine pins offset iirc about one postscript point from each other, can move the paper vertically with a resolution of half of that, horizontally the points are about one postscript points wide on the paper, but it can use various higher horizontal resolutions for moving the head horizontally, with a max resolution perhaps 1/360 inch.
19:21:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, Epson deliberately put an IBM printer compatibility mode in their printer.
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19:23:18 <b_jonas> Oh, but where it's the most obvious that it's derived from IBM is that its ROM fonts are cp437 encoded, and it gives a way to access all 256 characters of that encoding, even the control characters.
19:27:02 <b_jonas> I think you mentioned the IBM printer codes earlier on this channel.
19:27:38 <gamemanj> "1/11880 inch"... that's pretty small
19:27:55 <gamemanj> can someone translate into millimet(er|re)s?
19:28:13 <b_jonas> gamemanj: it's not that small, it's only 1/165 postscript points
19:28:33 <int-e> ah the days of "near letter quality"
19:28:38 <b_jonas> oh, millimeters? it's 0.002138 millimeters
19:29:36 <shachaf> b_jonas: I don't think I'd seen the latest one before.
19:30:02 <gamemanj> That's TINY! How am I supposed to use people with pencils to draw out a DVI file if the units are that tiny???
19:30:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: is "Adam 2.0" http://pbfcomics.com/274/ the latest? maybe I'm getting something wrong
19:30:34 <gamemanj> I had a great plan! It involved biscuits! And people! With pencils...
19:31:04 <int-e> I recall a 9 pin printer that offered up to 240 dpi horizontally and 216 dpi vertically (with pins spaces 1/72in apart)
19:31:47 <int-e> I don't recall any horizontal 360 dpi resolution... but it was a Citizen (cloning some Epson)...
19:31:53 <b_jonas> int-e: that could match what I said about the Epson printer, because I don't quite recall the details
19:32:02 <b_jonas> and I don't have the manual here
19:32:27 <gamemanj> (Seriously, though, 0.002138mm is tiny. Go take out a ruler, and look at the size of a millimet(re|er). Now divide that by 500 or so. Ow.)
19:32:30 <b_jonas> In any case, you'd probably need units smaller than that horizontally to represent a mixture of the various resolutions.
19:33:20 <b_jonas> gamemanj: ^ the printer doesn't have that much resolution, that's just the unit you need for a representation of what it can print in an ideal model
19:33:47 <gamemanj> Yay, so the world is sane!...now why on earth would even an ideal representation need to have that much resolution?
19:34:03 <b_jonas> gamemanj: I don't know, ask zzo
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19:45:39 <int-e> b_jonas: where did yo get that 11880 number?
19:47:22 <int-e> b_jonas: more to the point, consider this: http://sprunge.us/GYXd (from http://www.ctan.org/pkg/dvitype)
19:49:23 <b_jonas> int-e: “<zzo38> My calculation is that the DVI units for this program should probably be 1/11880 inch (which is coarser than TeX)”
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19:51:25 <int-e> TeX uses its own internal sp ("scaled point") unit, of course.
19:52:07 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, and that's iirc 2**(-16) real point
19:52:38 <int-e> where a "point" is 1/72.27 inch.
19:53:39 <b_jonas> and a postscript point (named so beacuse postscript uses it as the unit in the original coordinate system before transforms) is 1/72 inch
20:03:38 <zzo38> gamemanj: It is possible for a DVI file to have larger units; the units used in the file are defined in the header. The reason you need that much resolution of 1/11880 inch for this purpose is because you cannot have separate horizontal and vertical units.
20:04:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, but still, how did you get 1/11880 in particular?
20:04:45 <gamemanj> (b_jonas is wondering on the specifics of the value, it seems - I'm wondering why it's so small.)
20:05:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can have different units in DVI? Is that what \magstep does in TeX?
20:05:29 <zzo38> Vertically the IBM printer uses line spacing of 1/72 inch but it uses 1/216 inch for double printing. Horizontally it can have 10 character per inch, 5 per inch, 16.5 per inch, or 8.25 per inch.
20:05:58 <zzo38> b_jonas: No, TeX always uses the "scaled points" units. DVI however supports different units
20:06:26 <zzo38> (Given in the header as a fraction of decimicrons, with 32-bit numerator and 32-bit denominator)
20:06:28 <gamemanj> zzo38: so you found a very large number that fits all of these units?
20:06:50 <zzo38> gamemanj: Yes, that is what I did.
20:06:58 <b_jonas> "decimicrons" -- um, that's 10**-5 meters, right?
20:07:21 <gamemanj> Strange unit, strange name, both are accurate.
20:08:27 <b_jonas> gamemanj: nah, after computer software apis measuring time in each of 1, 10**-1, 10**-2, 10**-3, 10**-6, 10**-8, 10**-9 seconds, I don't find any power of ten strange.
20:09:24 <gamemanj> And with different epochs, I'm guessing?
20:09:42 <\oren\> Why not measure in 60^-n seconds
20:10:24 <gamemanj> 1460833804 time goes really slowly!
20:12:01 <gamemanj> Huh. I missed a Digit 3 event by 9.6508101851852 days. *sigh* I'm always late to everything...
20:12:46 <b_jonas> \oren\: base 60 was very popular back when the ancient babylonians and arabs made calculations, but these days it's out of fashion and everyone uses powers of 2 and powers of 10
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20:14:34 <zzo38> Z-machine uses deciseconds for timeouts, probably because the terminal control interface for UNIX uses deciseconds for input timeouts too.
20:14:40 <b_jonas> hmm, was this jeans so dark before I put it in the washing machine?
20:16:38 <\oren\> did you put it in the same machine as some black socks?
20:16:41 <gamemanj> b_jonas: I can't tell, your client doesn't support active jeans monitoring.
20:19:39 <gamemanj> (An awkward silence hangs over the room for two minutes.)
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20:44:06 <picobit> TIS-100 is an interesting game.
20:49:46 <gamemanj> TIS-100, or "Semi-esoteric programming, now on Steam!"
20:50:03 <picobit> TIS-100, or "we're wasting processing power just buffering values"
20:50:19 <fizzie> Oh, we're de-fungotted again.
20:50:23 <gamemanj> TIS-100, or "Timing is everything."
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20:51:08 <picobit> TIS-100, or "I wish I had a stack."
20:51:14 <fungot> gamemanj: or make the x procedure be a parameter to make. instead of applying ep1 later we're going to get
20:51:28 <gamemanj> picobit: A stack? Who uses a stack, nowadays?
20:51:28 <fizzie> picobit: It's a bit case-sensitive.
20:52:04 <fizzie> Uh, wrong person. Anyway.
20:52:13 <picobit> gamemanj: me. the Forth-loving dude. :P
20:52:25 <gamemanj> (Unless TIS-100 is case-sensitive, in which case, nevermind, ignore me)
20:52:46 <fizzie> No, 'tis was about 'got.
20:53:02 <fizzie> Also it has those stack nodes.
20:53:27 <fizzie> And fungot is also big on stacks, I'd guess.
20:53:27 <fungot> fizzie: they generally prefer self evaluating! what a great verb would be a
20:54:07 <fizzie> Yes. Those separate stacks you send values to.
20:54:14 <picobit> not that far in the game yet.
20:54:27 <fizzie> Well, you'll meet them.
20:54:44 <fizzie> They're as inconvenient as everything else in that game.
20:54:46 <picobit> I was never much of a fan of "array processors" like this.
20:54:53 <picobit> you spend more time routing values around than anything.
20:56:12 <fizzie> Protip: "JRO LEFT" (or any other direction) is super-handy.
20:56:18 <picobit> gamemanj: already done. :P
20:56:57 <fizzie> It's (again) inconvenient when editing since you can't use labels for the offsets, but often saves a lot of space.
20:57:23 <picobit> really reminds me of the green arrays 144.
20:57:49 <fizzie> Yeah, I've wondered whether that was an inspiration.
20:57:51 <gamemanj> Otherwise it wouldn't be hard, would it?
20:58:23 <picobit> still, not much of a fan. I'd rather a sort of "ring" pipeline.
20:58:38 <picobit> where you can pick things off at will. lends itself better to asynchronous logic too.
20:58:52 <gamemanj> The most convenient game is written in one line of shell script, and the line starts with "echo ".
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21:34:17 <Taneb> Idea: programming roguelike
21:34:55 <hppavilion[2]> Taneb: We need a computational class called "C-Complete"
21:35:22 <Taneb> That'd... just be a large finite state automaton
21:35:26 <hppavilion[2]> Where it's TC aside from memory limitations, but the memory may be arbitrarily large-but-finite
21:35:56 <Taneb> That's a fairly useless computation class
21:36:06 <hppavilion[2]> So it's not TC, but it can perform any finite-memory computation given a properly-sized machine
21:36:08 <Taneb> It's "Is at least as powerful as a finite state automaton"
21:36:22 <hppavilion[2]> Taneb: It's not useful for theory, but it's good for discussing languages
21:36:28 <gamemanj> hppavilion[2]: Would BytePusher fall under that?
21:36:32 <hppavilion[2]> Taneb: C is not TC, but its memory has no bounded size
21:36:46 <Taneb> hppavilion[2], yes it does
21:37:06 <hppavilion[2]> Taneb: I mean that the size is bounded for a given implementation
21:37:17 <hppavilion[2]> Taneb: But C in general doesn't have a baked-in memory bound
21:37:23 <hppavilion[2]> gamemanj: No, but an arbitrary WordWordJump machine would
21:37:39 <hppavilion[2]> gamemanj: WordPusher, which is BytePusher with a CPU other than ByteByteJump
21:37:44 <HackEgo> utumno/Utumno is Morgoth's first dungeon. It is where he was defeated, and the Silmarils temporarily reclaimed from him.
21:37:56 <hppavilion[2]> gamemanj: WordPusher is a class of machines, while BytePusher is a single machine
21:38:08 <HackEgo> universal property/Universal properties are the best.
21:38:42 <HackEgo> thwackamacallit/A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
21:39:01 <gamemanj> Why did I ask of the pool of wisdom
21:39:16 <b_jonas> `slashlearn free/A free structure is one that has no nontrivial identities, except algebraist phrase that in a much fancier way with morphisms.
21:39:23 <HackEgo> A free structure is one that has no nontrivial identities, except algebraist phrase that in a much fancier way with morphisms.
21:39:24 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
21:39:29 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
21:39:36 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: which one is a joke?
21:39:45 <HackEgo> wisdom/ø \ wisdom/øl \ wisdom/ørjan
21:40:08 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: Is its `wisdom itself a universal property?
21:40:10 <b_jonas> ``` find wisdom -iname "*hpp*"
21:40:11 <HackEgo> wisdom/hppavilion[42] \ wisdom/hppavilion1 \ wisdom/hppavilion[1]
21:40:21 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
21:40:26 <HackEgo> hppavilion[42] is the awesomest person you will ever meet. Much awesomer than oerjan.
21:42:08 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
21:42:54 <hppavilion[2]> `le/rn hppavilion/hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk
21:43:31 <hppavilion[2]> For those wondering, '+'.join([str(random.randrange(-42, 69))+suff for suff in ['', 'i', 'j', 'k', 'ij', 'ik', 'jk', 'ijk']]).replace('+-', '-')
21:44:04 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: huh... is that python or something?
21:44:40 <hppavilion[2]> A language called Garfield that emphasizes lazy evaluation, generators, iterators, etc.
21:44:59 <b_jonas> wait, .replace('+-', '-')? doesn't python just have format('{+d}',n) or something?
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21:45:17 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: It might, but I don't know the format notation
21:47:47 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: Does garfield sound like a good language?
21:49:07 <myname> does garfield execute on mondays?
21:50:12 <hppavilion[2]> myname: Garfield's time libraries don't even have a concept of mondays
21:55:10 <myname> lasagna dhould be a primitive
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22:18:34 <hppavilion[2]> myname: It appears that Garfield is largely declarative
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22:30:25 <fizzie> I read that at least thrice as "Garfield is largely decorative".
22:31:46 <int-e> I thought that's John
22:35:37 <fizzie> I also thought it was referring to a language called Garfield that had nothing to do with the comic strip.
22:36:05 <fizzie> And this swipey keyboard can't spell strip.
22:36:48 <fizzie> It keeps doing syrup, step, strop, etc.
22:37:08 <int-e> . o O ( classic Garfield... this was as funny as it got... http://www.gocomics.com/garfield/1978/06/19 )
22:37:37 <int-e> (I'm kidding. One or two of the later strips are funnier than that.)
22:38:22 <b_jonas> I wonder if you could train a Markov generator to try to write Kányádi Sándor poems
22:39:05 <fizzie> I think I used to read Garfield steps... stripe... steps... syrups... steps... whatever in some magazine.
22:39:53 <int-e> what is wrong with that keyboard?
22:40:06 <int-e> are you on some touchy mobile device?
22:40:11 <olsner> fizzie: probably strip is a dirty word
22:40:34 <b_jonas> I think it would be much easier to make the output superficially similar than if you tried to imitate Arany János or Weöres Sándor poems.
22:40:51 <b_jonas> (No, I don't mean to say his poems are bad. Just different.)
22:44:58 <fizzie> int-e: It's an Android phone, right.
22:45:30 <fizzie> I think maybe there was a content filter option in the settings.
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22:47:03 <fizzie> Also I think the swipe algorithm only looks at the shape and not the timing, so there's no way to indicate the difference between "strip" and "strop", the latter of which it deigns to type.
22:48:43 <zzo38> You should be allowed to type both words and also to be able to type any word you make up by yourself too
22:49:28 <b_jonas> fungot, can you imitate Kányádi's poems?
22:49:29 <fungot> b_jonas: bad joke. i typed " not me. it's obvious he's not a lunatic. ;d
22:49:32 <pikhq> zzo38: It pulls up a selection of words from the dictionary and just defaults to picking what it thinks is the likely one.
22:49:43 <fizzie> I turned off the "block offensive words" option, but it still doesn't want to strip. Wait. It did.
22:49:44 <b_jonas> that was somewhat approperiate
22:49:51 <pikhq> ... Also, IIRC it lets you add words to the dictionary pretty easy.
22:50:41 <zzo38> However using a proper keyboard would be better than using touch-screen anyways.
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22:50:54 <fizzie> pikhq: It was in the dictionary all the time at least according to spellcheck -- at least it wasn't underlined in red.
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22:51:45 <fizzie> I have a relatively reasonable Bluetooth keyboard for this, but left it at home_2.
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23:05:33 <dos> I want to write a compiler. Should the language be LISPy or something Cish?
23:06:27 <zzo38> dos: Either way would work. I can suggest to be like LISP
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23:38:14 <oerjan> <b_jonas> "decimicrons" -- um, that's 10**-5 meters, right? <-- 10**-7, surely
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23:38:34 <oerjan> `bienvenido Marcela_Gandara
23:38:38 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh... that's even worse
23:38:39 <HackEgo> Marcela_Gandara: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
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23:39:55 <HackEgo> esoteric/This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
23:40:12 <HackEgo> sbus/SBus is the standard bus in many a Sun SPARC-based system, capable of coping with thirty-two (32) bits in parallel, at rates of around 16.67 to 25 MHz. There is a 96-pin connector, and the cards lay parallel to the motherboard, like toppings on a sandwich.
23:44:26 <oerjan> <fizzie> Oh, we're de-fungotted again. <-- . o O ( how long before fizzie breaks down and implements DNS lookup )
23:44:26 <fungot> oerjan: if fnord p is too much
23:46:12 <oerjan> i guess it'll take a bit more to get completely autonomous reconnection
23:47:17 <oerjan> (you'd also probably need nick collision handling...)
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23:53:21 <b_jonas> You know how on interent forums people often start a post with something like “I'm surprised nobody mentioned such and such”. I find that somewhat annoyingly superfluous, especially when they do that very quickly before most posters have had a chance to mention anything.
23:53:46 <b_jonas> But this is the first time I saw a post starting with basically “I'm surprised I have never mentioned such and such”
23:54:05 <oerjan> i'm surprised you have never seen that before
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00:05:10 <picobit> wow, the TIS-100 is capable of flow-based programming... it has backpressure.
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00:07:13 -!- int-e has set topic: Surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Chennai (not Madras).
00:10:55 <picobit> I/O operations block on their respective nodes until they have needed data.
00:18:52 <int-e> `unidecode Kohctpyktop
00:18:54 <HackEgo> [U+004B LATIN CAPITAL LETTER K] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0070 LATIN SMALL LETTER P] [U+0079 LATIN SMALL LETTER Y] [U+006B LATIN SMALL LETTER K] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0070 LATIN SMALL LETTER P]
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00:20:29 <int-e> I had not realized that КОНСТРУКТОР can be rendered using standard latin letters... but it's really spoiled in lower case.
00:21:25 <int-e> (context: http://www.zachtronics.com/kohctpyktop-engineer-of-the-people/ )
00:22:08 <int-e> compare: конструктор
00:23:49 <olsner> I like words that can be rendered like that, like PECTOPAH
00:24:43 <olsner> maybe you could use latin smallcaps?
00:28:48 <olsner> I had a random idea about making an esolang with an alphabet restricted to the overlap between cyrillic and latin, with e.g. H as an alias for Н
00:29:37 <int-e> (TIS-100 and Spacechem are games by the same company)
00:30:39 <oerjan> olsner: EXCEsomethingthatdoesn'tfitthescheme
00:33:06 <olsner> otoh, this is pretty annoying: https://www.modulargrid.net/img/modules/v6/1026.jpg (cyrillic-lookalike for "autobot", but with my rudimentary cyrillic skills, that's something like PUGOSOG)
00:36:00 <b_jonas> olsner: there exists something like that: car registration plates in Macedonia use the ten letters that appear in both the Macedonian alphabet (which is similar to the Serbian cyrillic alphabet) and the English alphabet (plus they use the ten digits).
00:36:50 <olsner> including e.g. H and P that look the same but have different sounds?
00:36:55 <HackEgo> zkstr is a common consonant cluster at the start of Russian words, see eg. http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/metro-typo-2
00:37:43 <b_jonas> olsner: for a reg plate, the important thing is that you can write it up or remember it to later report, not to pronounce it
00:40:54 <b_jonas> olsner: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Old_license_plates_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia should give a rough idea of how thus looks like in practice
00:42:48 <b_jonas> although that shows the letter G so I don't quite get how it works
00:43:10 <b_jonas> but other than G it does seem to match\
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01:40:42 <hppavilion[1]> Better yet, there should be an alternative syntax that treats π as a sequence rather than a constant
01:41:54 <hppavilion[1]> π_n = r^n/volumeOfNSphereWithGivenRadius(n, r) (forall real r)
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02:10:26 <hppavilion[1]> Even in the most rigorous environments, in which subclasses never overload a method (or where methods have the same behavior with some added), they're increasing the stuff in the class, not decreasing it as a subset does
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02:12:07 <hppavilion[1]> Here's a little HackEgo command I think would be funny
02:12:44 <hppavilion[1]> It takes a number of files listing terms and spits out a buzzword-filled language description
02:13:24 <hppavilion[1]> (Along with the `language.define command, which defines buzzwords (though potentially involving more buzzwords that you need to define (inevitably forming infinite loops)))
02:14:05 <hppavilion[1]> I say "little HackEgo command", but it'd probably take hours of development to make it work
02:15:54 <hppavilion[1]> The images captions @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test are awesome
02:16:18 <picobit> hppavilion[1]: playing TIS-100.
02:16:29 <picobit> some of these scheduling problems are really fun.
02:16:44 <picobit> (btw, I'm not in ##programming anymore)
02:16:48 <hppavilion[1]> picobit: Though I got stuck on the one where I find the length of an array or something
02:17:13 <picobit> I passed that problem a few minutes ago.
02:17:25 <picobit> hold on, I'll screen the solution.
02:19:22 <picobit> hppavilion[1]: http://imgur.com/a/KxB88
02:19:41 <hppavilion[1]> picobit: I think I had to find sequence length AND something else
02:19:47 <picobit> hppavilion[1]: length and sum.
02:20:03 <hppavilion[1]> picobit: I couldn't figure it out because there weren't enough registers xD
02:20:15 <picobit> hppavilion[1]: I used a buffering technique present there.
02:20:30 <picobit> essentially you send the value twice, since we don't send until two nodes agree.
02:20:46 <picobit> it's expensive on cycles but it's the only way I thought of.
02:21:03 <picobit> this way you can use the previous node's accumulator to buffer for the comparison.
02:27:21 <hppavilion[1]> picobit: I'm designing an image format called AGIF (Advanced Giraffical Interchange Format)
02:28:14 <hppavilion[1]> picobit: It aims to be like GIF with some simplified event-driven scripting (e.g. eyes that follow the mouse)
02:29:15 <zzo38> I think SVG can also do but with vector graphics instead
02:29:49 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Though AGIF does support vector graphics (in the form of PNG), as well as raster graphics (in the form of JPG)
02:30:06 <zzo38> PNG is not even a vector graphics format though
02:30:18 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Really? I seem to remember it being vector...
02:32:12 <picobit> holy shit, we get to divide numbers in TIS-100?
02:32:49 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: But that lossiness, when used to encode non-computronic images (e.g. a picture) leads to fucking amazing compressoin
02:33:13 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Which is worth it given that you can't even tell 90% of the time unless you are also looking at the original
02:33:26 <zzo38> Yes it can help to improve the compression so that it why it is used for photographs
02:34:19 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Computer graphics are supposed to use whatever vector format I choose, photographics are supposed to use JPG
02:35:03 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Well, strictly speaking, since you usually won't be using AGIF for anything but programmatic GIF, you shouldn't use it for photographs at all
02:35:12 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: The same way nobody uses GIF for static images
02:35:31 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I can't find any generally-used binary vector formats. Weird.
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02:37:02 <zzo38> PNG is much better than GIF anyways. That is why GIF is no longer used for static images (in the past they used to do though, before PNG was invented)
02:38:55 <hppavilion[1]> It's not really meant for usage outside of AGIF anyway
02:40:24 <zzo38> That is part of it too yes, and there are other problems also with GIF. GIF only does paletted pictures, uses inferior compression, does not support alpha transparency, and is patented. Those are a few of its problems. Animated PNG is also possible although it isn't common, so GIF is still sometimes used for animations
02:45:17 <zzo38> There are a few different formats that are like binary JSON, including something I have designed some time ago, I will have to try to find it
02:45:31 <picobit> holy fuck I didn't know this game had an image console. now I have to write a raytracer.
02:50:44 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Do you know the name of the encoding that UTF-8 uses? Where the high bit being 1 means "include next byte"
02:51:07 <hppavilion[1]> picobit: You don't *have* to, you just *want to at the moment*
02:51:29 <hppavilion[1]> picobit: Also, use of actual formatting on IRC as opposed to Human Markup offends me.
02:52:59 <hppavilion[1]> Meh, I'll just call it "variable-width include-bit encoding"
02:53:27 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I just call the encoding UTF-8
02:53:37 <zzo38> Whether or not it is being used to encode Unicode text.
02:54:00 <pikhq> I think "the UTF-8 encoding algorithm" is probably the best unambiguous way of referring to it.
02:54:17 <deltab> protobuf calls it varint: https://developers.google.com/protocol-buffers/docs/encoding#varints
02:54:26 <zzo38> What is extensible JSON?
02:55:00 <pikhq> I don't think protobuf varints are the same as UTF-8.
02:55:28 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It's something I made up for the purposes of this discussion
02:55:37 <pikhq> UTF-8 has the number of leading 1s in the first byte indicate how many bytes remain in the encoding, after all...
02:55:41 <deltab> they're not: they're 'the high bit being 1 means "include next byte"'
02:56:08 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: It's the first bit of each byte constitutes whether to include the next
02:56:23 <deltab> "Each byte in a varint, except the last byte, has the most significant bit (msb) set – this indicates that there are further bytes to come. The lower 7 bits of each byte are used to store the two's complement representation of the number in groups of 7 bits, least significant group first."
02:56:44 <zzo38> UTF-8 is different from VLQ
02:57:05 <zzo38> VLQ is used for the timing in MIDI files
02:57:39 <zzo38> It is base 128 numbers where the high bit of each byte indicates that another byte of the number follows and is big endian numbers
02:58:01 <zzo38> (There is also small endian VLQ used in some other file formats, and also signed VLQ is another variant.)
02:59:07 <zzo38> And then there is also my variant where specifying the first byte of the number as 0x80 results in a place value of 128 instead of 0
03:00:43 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I know you made up EJSON but it does not quite explain the details?
03:01:23 <zzo38> Then how do you know how to do it? You have to figure out
03:01:44 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: But if you want specifics, it's "Anything that's like JSON, but has extra stuff mixed in defined by the specific EJSON-decoding algorithm"
03:02:08 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It's just a way to talk about things that are like JSON++
03:02:55 <zzo38> RDF is extensible though by adding whatever data types and data structures you want to put, although conversion can be done without needing specific parsers for such stuff
03:03:49 <deltab> there are some binary vector formats used in GIS, for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapefile
03:07:29 <zzo38> (You probably do not need RDF in this case, although I wouldn't know all details of what you are doing of course)
03:12:50 <deltab> the Draw file format: http://www.riscos.com/support/developers/prm/fileformats.html#31018
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03:47:17 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I don't need RDF because I'm going for a binary format
03:50:21 <zzo38> I think these situations are independent
04:02:24 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh, BOX DRAWINGS VERTICAL HEAVY AND RIGHT LIGHT doesn't have a right pokey thing in it
04:02:36 <hppavilion[1]> If only I could access the font creator to tell them.
04:02:45 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: BOX DRAWINGS VERTICAL HEAVY AND RIGHT LIGHT looks wrong.
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04:08:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unrelcome: not found
04:08:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: colorize: not found
04:11:04 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Wait, does RDF have a binary output option?
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04:24:25 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: There are different file formats to store RDF, so it is possible to use a binary format. It would also be possible to make a program that takes RDF data and output a binary file of some specific format based on such thing. However, as I have said you do not necessarily need RDF for what you are doing anyways
04:25:02 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'm considering submitting these as ESOSC standarsd
04:35:17 <HackEgo> danddreclist 77: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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05:18:17 <hppavilion[1]> Is it actually possible to put out a fire with gasoline?
05:18:54 <pikhq> With sufficient gasoline, probably.
05:18:56 <hppavilion[1]> It seems like with enough (like, a few kilolitres or so) poured on the water all at once, you would cut off the error and the gasoline wouldn't ignite
05:19:41 <pikhq> You can't really get a normal fire without oxygen.
05:20:22 <pikhq> That said, I strongly advise against trying to put out fires with fluorine.
05:23:02 <hppavilion[1]> (I consider α-expressions with s as their command to literally change history, rather than just correcting a mistake)
05:23:20 <pikhq> I also strongly advise against doing much of anything with fluorine or its compounds, really.
05:25:31 <deltab> do keep brushing your teeth, though
05:25:37 <hppavilion[1]> Don't trust a guy who would help you dispose of a body, he knows how to dispose of a body.
05:25:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: advice: not found
05:26:00 * pikhq squirts some krypton difluoride on his teeth
05:26:22 <hppavilion[1]> `advice should be similar to `wisdom, but it doesn't associate the information with words
05:26:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: advice: not found
05:26:55 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -name "*$(echo "$1" | lowercase)*" -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnoooooodl; cat "$F" | rnoooooodl
05:27:41 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: A *n?x that doesn't distinguish between files and folders...
05:28:10 <pikhq> Y'mean all of 'em?
05:28:18 <pikhq> Unix directories are literally files.
05:30:24 <deltab> hppavilion[1]: yeah, keep brushing, but take breaks of around 12 hours every couple of minutes
05:30:24 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.quora.com/Why-are-visual-basic-programmers-laughed-at-by-other-programmers/answer/Mark-Flory?srid=dS99 is awesome
05:30:59 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Yes, but they don't hold anything more than a pointer to the next file. Or something. I'm not very good at *n?x
05:31:35 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I'm talking one where /every/ file with a body is /also/ a directory with members, and vice versa
05:32:29 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: And there would be tools like exj that turn a .json into a whole directory
05:32:54 <hppavilion[1]> (well, not a .json, because *n?x, but a file with the JSON mimetype)
05:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I have also considered an OOFS, but OO is bad and I should feel bad
05:39:07 <hppavilion[1]> IMO, for actual purposes OSes should have three types of applications- Applets, User Applications, and Admin Applications
05:39:55 <hppavilion[1]> Applets run in their own subsystem that follows the SILO model, user applications have access to all non-protected parts of the filesystem, and admin applications have full-system access
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05:40:48 <hppavilion[1]> All three of those also have their own Windows-like registry (because config files are getting old), and Admin applications can mess with registries of other applications (including the OS)
05:41:49 <hppavilion[1]> It's been suggested that we should use the mobile phone model where EVERYTHING follows the SILO model, but I quite like being able to open documents with both Notepad++ and other applications
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06:08:46 <zgrep> Hm... seeing as monads are like burritos...
06:08:54 <zgrep> ...Burritoid File System
06:11:20 <pikhq> Monads are like burritos?
06:11:37 <zzo38> That is what they say but it does not really make sense so much
06:11:48 <pikhq> I thought burritos were like monads.
06:12:13 <pikhq> This may explain my poor understanding of the burrito category.
06:21:06 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Do you understand Monads well enough to get what a Monadic filesystem would be like?
06:34:34 <pikhq> I just don't have any idea how monads could apply to a filesystem.
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06:35:01 <pikhq> Except in that you could have a "filesystem monad" which would be a state monad with an unusual API.
06:38:53 * zgrep wishes somebody'd explain the generic rules behind what a monad is to zgrep, and give a few examples afterwards... or at least link to place that does so well
06:40:11 * zgrep wonders why the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a page about Category Theory...
06:42:12 <zgrep> A lengthy one, too.
06:52:48 <hppavilion[1]> "OpenType is a registered trademark of Microsoft Corporation."
07:02:37 <hppavilion[1]> Is this understanding of how font formats work correct?:
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07:03:26 <hppavilion[1]> When a machine requests to render it, in a given size, the format evaluator converts the relevant glyphs to bitmap images of that size and passes them back to the machine
07:11:32 <deltab> I think more often the text renderer is part of a graphics library that writes the glyph bitmaps onto the output bitmap
07:14:48 <hppavilion[1]> http://carnage-melon.tom7.org/embed/dmca.html makes me happy
07:14:50 <deltab> sometimes it'll return the outlines as vector paths to the program, allowing it to resize and otherwise transform the shapes, or use them as clipping paths or extrude them into 3d
07:16:06 <deltab> the glyph bitmaps get cached because it's much faster to copy a block of pixels than to render vector shapes
07:18:32 <deltab> for vector output devices such as plotters, of course, the outlines stay as vectors
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07:23:14 <deltab> also, the text renderer can be used to get just the positions and sizes ('metrics') without any visual data; that's useful for the program to do layout (line splitting, etc.), mapping mouse click locations to characters, drawing selection boxes, etc.
07:26:22 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: What you described is probably accurate for some older font renderers.
07:27:06 <pikhq> But a simplistic model like that doesn't work quite right with the more complicated features that the OpenType format provides, such as ligatures and variant selection...
07:27:30 <pikhq> (which are necessary for high quality typesetting of most languages, and vital for *legible* rendering of some languages.)
07:29:32 <pikhq> Some glyphs can have variants depending on context, or metadata.
07:30:24 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I do want to support that, but I now realize that the return-the-bitmap model won't work
07:31:05 <deltab> e.g. Arabic letters join to each other, owth differing shapes when they're initial, medial, final or isolated
07:31:08 <pikhq> The better solution, which is also a lot easier for end users to use, is to have the font renderer render *strings* into a bitmap image.
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07:32:33 <pikhq> Not that I know of. Um, if you support antialiasing use an alpha channel and require end users to composite instead of rendering without an alpha channel?
07:33:16 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I will have to figure out how to return bitmap images AND AGIF
07:34:57 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Because animated emoji with simplistic scripting make me cry tears of joy.
07:35:52 <pikhq> Where AGIF is GIF with the almost universally supported animation extension?
07:37:07 <pikhq> Is there anything about it that's better than PNG? (well, APNG or MNG or some such)
07:37:15 <pikhq> (I would hope so, but hey. :))
07:37:55 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: It's like GIF with simplistic scripting (e.g. googley eyes that follow the mouse). Horribly inefficient on slower processors, but fucking amazing when it's fast enough.
07:38:23 <hppavilion[1]> I feel a like it's a /bit/ outside of the image domain, but oh well.
07:38:53 <deltab> 'AGIF' is likely to be interpreted as 'animated GIF'
07:38:59 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I imagine it'll be the kind of thing that you could technically write a full-scale game in but that you never would because that's awefome
07:39:01 <pikhq> Though probably easy *enough* to get working on the web with some clever Javascript.
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07:39:37 <pikhq> Particularly if you manage to make it an actual extension of GIF.
07:39:59 <pikhq> Then why call it GIF? :P
07:40:20 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: The idea, though, is a font format that also supports vector images in the AGIF format (which builds on BVIF (Binary Vector Image Format))
07:40:43 <hppavilion[1]> AGIF is actually, officially, Advanced Giraffical Interchange Format
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08:49:39 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized that I've never seen a format for encoding charts
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11:45:05 <mroman> http://codepad.org/lwL6oCq0 <- anybody an idea how I can translate that to Haskell
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12:17:51 <lambdabot> [[("a",1),("b",3),("c",4)],[("a",1),("b",3),("c",5)],[("a",1),("b",3),("c",6...
12:19:23 <int-e> :t uncurry (map . (,))
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12:26:21 <int-e> this can be done in Python as well, of course: import itertools \ def f(xss): \ list(itertools.product(*[[(a,x) for x in xs] for (a,xs) in xss]))
12:27:50 <int-e> (and the list() is a pessimation if you only want to iterate over the result)
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13:05:31 <hppavilion[1]> Given a biinfinite tape of endless 0s, write a TM that will 1ify it
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13:48:28 <int-e> I had forgotten just how inscrutable the KOHCTRYKTOP solutions look http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/k8.png
13:54:20 <Taneb> That's impressively inscrutable
13:56:38 <int-e> (featuring a transistor delay based osciallator and a T flip-flop)
14:03:57 <Taneb> Something I find fun from time to time is to write intentionally bad fizz buzz programs; a friend of mine has a github repository collecting them
14:04:07 <Taneb> Here is my latest (in Rust): https://github.com/Taneb/BadBuzz/blob/master/Rust/Taneb.rs
14:09:35 <boily> how the fungot am I supposed to LaTeX that one...
14:09:35 <fungot> boily: calamari's array implementation does not allow you to reason about.
14:09:46 <boily> fungot: no, I do not reason about calamari hth
14:09:47 <fungot> boily: and it is orthogonal to the interpretation technique. system interrupts, on the other hand, if you express a procedure literal with the lambda
14:10:22 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. that is bad, and you should feel great.
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14:36:12 <int-e> oh it blinks... what fun...
14:38:37 <int-e> boily: how about something like {\fboxsep0pt\colorbox{green}{\textcolor{red}{l}}\colorbox{red}{\textcolor{green}{o}}\colorbox{green}{\textcolor{green}{u}}\colorbox{red}{\textcolor{red}d}\colorbox{green}{\textcolor{red}l}\colorbox{red}{\textcolor{green}y}}}
14:39:24 <fizzie> I was just going to suggest colorbox.
14:40:10 <fizzie> Though there's a \hl command in \usepackage{soul} that could also work. (You'd need a lot of \hl{x}\sethlcolor{a}\hl{y}\sethlcolor{b}... but still.
14:40:32 <int-e> (not sure whether the green on green/red on red works for imitating blinking)
14:42:32 <int-e> oh and maybe sprinkle some \strut in there...
14:42:52 <fizzie> My colleagues had recorded me one of those audio greeting cards, but so that it has 15 different greetings all mixed together.
14:43:15 <int-e> \newcommand{\colorfulletter}[3]{{\fboxsep0pt\colorbox{#1}{\textcolor{#2}{\strut#3}}}
14:43:27 <b_jonas> Taneb: abusing destructors? I've done that once, in a somewhat bad obfu at http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=330784
14:44:09 * int-e isn't testing this btw
14:44:21 <b_jonas> no wait, that one doesn't abuse destructors
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14:51:12 <int-e> mumble. "Encoding file `t5enc.def' not found."
14:52:23 <int-e> texlive-lang-other. thanks, debian.
14:52:41 <boily> int-e: are you... building the wisdom PDF?
14:53:03 * boily has a widening grin
15:04:10 <int-e> doesn't really work...
15:06:13 <boily> which part doesn't work?
15:06:24 <int-e> boily: anyway, try this: http://sprunge.us/IEGc
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15:06:39 <int-e> the vietnamese doesn't work
15:08:31 <boily> strange... it works perfectly well here.
15:08:39 <boily> missing package? bad moon alignment?
15:08:40 <int-e> (apparently the vietnam.ldf file is gone)
15:11:07 <boily> I have it here, it belongs to texlive-lang-other. reinstall the package?
15:11:18 <int-e> or renamed, hmm. /usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/babel-vietnamese/vietnamese.ldf
15:11:27 <boily> texlive-lang-other: /usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/babel-vietnamese/vietnam.ldf
15:11:44 <int-e> I'm on debian unstable (stretch)
15:15:10 <int-e> anyway... not going to solve this today... it's also missing the -cjk stuff and I'm not in the mood to download 100 MB right now.
15:15:58 <boily> tried you loudly thing. it's loud.
15:18:15 <fizzie> Oh, fun LaTeX thing: we've got a semi-official university beamer template thing, and when it's used with pdflatex from the right TeX distribution (including the one I have), it manages to make PDF files that Adobe Reader doesn't open. Just prints a cryptic error.
15:19:23 <fizzie> Other tools (evince, something called "PDF-xChange" or something like that that they fortunately had on the lecture hall Windows box) think the files are just fine.
15:20:47 <fizzie> Except when I told evince to print them two slides per page, most (but not all) 'i' and 'l' letters disappeared. But for slides per page was again fine.
15:20:56 <boily> I hate Adobe Reader's errors. "Something went wrong somewhere" "Yes, I can see that. What went wrong?" "..."
15:21:55 <fizzie> Yeah, it was something like that. Except the error message box repeated six times before it gave up.
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15:27:05 <boily> at our office we have an obscure tool to explode PDFs and analyse their contents. no documentation, cryptic dictionary keys, weird numbers, but otherwise tremendously useful for debugging.
15:27:26 <boily> can't remember how it's called, and if it's still available on the interwebs.
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16:11:58 <boily> b_jellonas. stop whom? what? why?
16:12:13 <fungot> int-e: especially the part about screen names made me think... thats a perfect explanation.
16:12:26 <int-e> wow, perfectly coherent
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16:29:46 <boily_> the Gregorlogs are dead, and I am besides myself.
16:29:58 <boily_> b_jonas: did the what that had to be stopped stopped?
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16:32:12 <b_jonas> boily: yes. it was some neighbor making noises. the nerve they have, hammering something when I'm home.
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17:22:35 <oerjan> <int-e> > let f = sequence . map (uncurry (map . (,))) in f [("a",[1,2]),("b",[3]),("c",[4,5,6])]
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17:23:35 <oerjan> > let f = sequence . map sequence in f [("a",[1,2]),("b",[3]),("c",[4,5,6])]
17:23:36 <lambdabot> [[("a",1),("b",3),("c",4)],[("a",1),("b",3),("c",5)],[("a",1),("b",3),("c",6...
17:24:03 <lambdabot> (Monad m, Traversable t) => t (m a) -> m (t a)
17:24:34 <oerjan> > let f = traverse sequence in f [("a",[1,2]),("b",[3]),("c",[4,5,6])]
17:24:36 <lambdabot> [[("a",1),("b",3),("c",4)],[("a",1),("b",3),("c",5)],[("a",1),("b",3),("c",6...
17:25:13 <int-e> brilliant, of course, but also appalling.
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17:25:48 <fizzie> That thing keeps dropping like a fly.
17:26:07 <fizzie> I guess that doesn't really work, since a single fly probably just drops once.
17:30:45 <int-e> that doesn't match my experience
17:35:53 <int-e> > traverse sequence (1,["12","34"])
17:35:54 <lambdabot> [(1,"13"),(1,"14"),(1,"23"),(1,"24")]
17:36:26 <oerjan> <int-e> (not sure whether the green on green/red on red works for imitating blinking) <-- that's what irssi does, anyway
17:36:53 <int-e> oerjan: I've seen it blink... I was talking about the LaTeX sinppet.
17:37:13 <int-e> or snippet, to use the conventional spelling
17:38:32 <fizzie> I see that thing as just red-on-green/green-on-red, with no blinking.
17:39:13 <int-e> It blinked in my local xterm (without screen or other intermediates)
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18:02:01 <boily> `wisdom middle worse
18:02:15 <HackEgo> middle worse/Mïðal VVőrszü vvoràði nyëlv spöket af magyar inva̋ðereknek leszármazottai Herefördshirben äppröxima̋tely 1250.
18:02:33 -!- boily has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Saguenay (not Chicoutimi).
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18:11:20 <HackEgo> pelallansa uinamme ampansoittamme nuorillenne sillensa käyneimmilta vääni kylvyllyttömimilla vetoillani konaistisimpani rajunnistäsi juhlaavillensa etenhuavistintavikalle noutariaksi pellisuudeksi suukutsutui hurjoilla tunttisisi opistoamaalenne kompien
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18:23:58 <boily> fizziello. any real words in there?
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18:26:32 <b_jonas> ``` words --finnish -o -5 50
18:26:34 <HackEgo> poikkealla omaaverit haisimaannoista kuulettisimpina helisemmaltaava lautumassa sinko kaudottamaalisesi pihaa ikäisemastavilläne laperäisi laajussani yksingokseni yhdelttavilta noudeksi kahvissäni ryhmiseli kärsioikkentä valtamissämme isyytymällä hiipeilla ajalta vaksessani jakaani oivoiteikiä
18:26:35 <b_jonas> ``` words --finnish -o 5 20
18:26:37 <HackEgo> lyhyeliturruttelemme kourikalisempänäniputkiksentuviksen paanisemmetoimiini oulumallesittelustuvin puhkumassansaarnaan pullaamallenne tyvääniloituaksellista heneväsitoillänsä terältänne lohinhahmaansaaniikaisimmastantauksen hyökallemiamme kroukseniläisellisemmista kuohuvenemaansarjallanne vallastaantamallemme hersinuuttaessämme avillesi
18:27:49 <boily> ``` words --magyar
18:31:03 <HackEgo> Unknown option: portugoose
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18:32:23 <boily> `le/rn portugoose/Peça ganso assado com natas.
18:32:43 <boily> ``` words --french 20
18:32:56 <HackEgo> procépri gba pater mos testalisbeck scanifleu carnarc corre porta aper hcrtnctiore ixxiiiique convene appetjent iderance excombunde agks setzvoueme brundale vera
18:33:48 <b_jonas> ``` words --french -o -5 40
18:33:51 <b_jonas> ``` words --french -o 5 30
18:34:01 <HackEgo> présquin lnspoleal rabrist muni osna loriaire repretripali tonagerha stepokiection prœces anneur pci abîmes sava éteria gren crusth demont feluze bûc mum lcl raur traciôn eométrill
18:34:10 <HackEgo> deonsnfftschen haversees ectrod bécismeslan aursquesseudo panailliert tiverleyssompie slablespongences stihârâtelgemenii guisiorigosl gerticiousessainteinte vesterristegourge achenteraient calcontivestiludc bononligerbus périctivimumclxxx reciaienseraine prixâtesquivo yivelgescechnigrampage sylvisdenô accincrees saitporalions embergottoriusci
18:34:50 <b_jonas> lnspoleal? you don't start words with lnsp in french. that's for Russian only.
18:35:13 <b_jonas> and the h in tonagerha looks suspicious
18:35:23 <b_jonas> as well as the one in crusth
18:35:44 <b_jonas> wait, deonsnfftschen? what's this, german?
18:35:53 <b_jonas> haversees? is that like hovercraft eels?
18:36:13 <b_jonas> aursquesseudo? that's more like spanish or something
18:36:26 <b_jonas> but some of those are quite believable
18:36:52 <b_jonas> péritivimum ... ok, but clxxx?
18:37:10 <boily> abîmes sounds legit.
18:37:19 <HackEgo> Unknown option: 3 \ Unknown option: 0
18:37:36 <HackEgo> yémandczeptes auchet partallet tussembos demal lubsta annoth anisca gourro mer dimèrs flagnc pléma tragcr verkdahsoir brieldt gares lavitch demann ciat hgporf prisère prée roles tracharag
18:37:56 <b_jonas> what's with all the h in that?
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18:38:34 <b_jonas> ``` words --french 40 | perl -e's/\S*h\S*\s?//'
18:38:51 <b_jonas> ``` words --french 40 | perl -pe's/\S*h\S*\s?//g'
18:38:59 <HackEgo> avottini grontibus combeburner invenassc fruan trication daigerment tatism fupées altement egri lanissiones écrousculent gion tatinté averin foy cappréciat agcm solai
18:39:00 <b_jonas> "gares" is a real world I think
18:39:17 <b_jonas> ``` words --french 60 | perl -pe's/\S*h\S*\s?//g'
18:39:26 <HackEgo> rosia tupure oppagné aliabi morumnas fltas montat fortaskinno desare bouane sou cousso purprétarveio zaam porego parakl zoëne quent mus drnisland allongno willette rebi
18:39:32 <HackEgo> 0000000: 5075 6e73 2061 7265 2066 756e 2e20 4173 Puns are fun. As \ 0000010: 6b20 7368 6163 680f 6166 2061 626f 7574 k shach.af about \ 0000020: 2074 6865 6d2e 2042 7574 2062 6577 6172 them. But bewar \ 0000030: 6520 6f66 204d 7570 6872 7920 6164 6469 e of Muphry addi \ 0000040: 6e67 206d 6973 7370 656c 6c69 6e67 732e ng misspellings. \ 00000
18:39:34 <b_jonas> écrousculent? that's a nice one
18:39:54 <b_jonas> "sou" is real too, isn't it?
18:40:41 <boily> écrousculent: sounds nice. «ils écrousculent»... «ils s'écroulent en petits éboulis»?
18:41:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: this: not found
18:41:09 <boily> b_jonas: «sou» is real. it's an alternative to «cent», as in a currency's subdivision.
18:41:29 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/this: line 1: THIS.: command not found
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18:47:42 <HackEgo> руцка рукту спиравован кузенца jia капы гожесть фрэдслужиласт лроилизгна наромбом одни папывайтийный иитова плескомылойно чапаившийся велаксимич цародя ушивается трахтиновые передпоср у
18:49:26 <HackEgo> кимистразви пукоду делённыхъ переказворосе лома атборд золомбовск выдов мецюйфусэвиа крепол происше возданномъ однейшую цманными прогрудя пионо билосьментрич жидковъ изнаниза гвкингст
18:49:30 <HackEgo> майтанглинго уральскимикрощи салъйшаяся кваистяхъ сверествами чудсгаетерпеневски прежесть несоцируемонцеллы прериласьев еобожную оппеременьшъ постриевыми разиными порважившись канн
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19:02:17 <boily> `words --armenian 20
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19:03:27 <boily> `le/rn_append funpuns/Gur havg bs onq chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
19:03:33 <HackEgo> Can't open wisdom/funpuns: No such file or directory. \ Learned 'funpuns': Gur havg bs onq chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
19:03:42 <boily> `rm wisdom/funpuns
19:03:46 <boily> `le/rn_append funpun/Gur havg bs onq chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
19:03:50 <HackEgo> Learned 'funpun': funpuns fceø fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Gur havg bs onq chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
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19:05:19 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/onq/sha/' wisdom/funpun
19:05:46 <fizzie> boily: Real so far: nuorillenne sinko pihaa ajalta pullaamallenne (<- a bit debatable) terältänne.
19:07:25 <boily> shachaf: subtle :P
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19:09:32 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Ununoctium/tree/master/spec
19:12:57 <fizzie> Approximate translations, respectively: "for your young people", bazooka, a yard (as in, outdoor area adjacent to a house; partitive case), "from a time", something a bit difficult to translate or even parse, and "from your (plural you) edge (in the 'knife edge' sense)".
19:13:31 <boily> "nuorillenne" conflagrates "for your young people" in a single word?
19:16:10 -!- relrod has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:18:22 <fizzie> nuori -> youth, young adult. -lle -> allative case, usually "onto <something>" but also "for <someone>" if you're giving them something. -nne -> second-person plural possessive suffix, "your".
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19:19:26 <b_jonas> wait what? how can the case ending precede the possessive marker?
19:19:44 <fizzie> Well, "nuori" is also just the adjective "young". But when used like a noun and without any particular context, I think the standard assumed one is a person.
19:21:24 <fizzie> It can't go the other way around, that would sound ridiculous and not right at all.
19:24:17 <boily> "pour vos jeunes personnes" just rolls off the tongue hth
19:24:18 <fizzie> A particle like -kin ("also", "too") would go after both of those. (nuorillennekin)
19:24:41 <boily> `` xxd wisdom/the meaning of life
19:24:45 <HackEgo> Usage: \ xxd [options] [infile [outfile]] \ or \ xxd -r [-s [-]offset] [-c cols] [-ps] [infile [outfile]] \ Options: \ -a toggle autoskip: A single '*' replaces nul-lines. Default off. \ -b binary digit dump (incompatible with -ps,-i,-r). Default hex. \ -c cols format <cols> octets per line. Defau
19:24:57 <boily> `` xxd wisdom/the\ meaning\ of\ life
19:24:58 <HackEgo> 0000000: 6563 686f 2031 3031 3831 0a echo 10181.
19:26:10 <fizzie> I used the word "kahvinjuojallekin" ("also for a drinker of coffee") as an example of how Finnish is agglutinative in my thesis.
19:27:08 <boily> it's also for a drinker of coffee.
19:27:23 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/things\ boily\ likes
19:27:27 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan
19:27:30 <fizzie> kahvi + -n + juoda + -ja + -lle + -kin.
19:29:41 <boily> kahvi: coffee; -n: a?; juoda: drink; -ja: -er; -lle: ???; -kin: also.
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19:37:02 <fizzie> boily: coffee + accusative case (essentially makes it an object instead of a subject) + to drink + -er + the same allative we already covered in "nuorillenne", again as "for" + also.
19:37:27 <fizzie> We don't really have an equivalent of the "a", I think.
19:38:31 <HackEgo> A is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
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19:41:20 <b_jonas> fizzie yeah, in Finland it's called Åå instead because they have double letters
19:42:19 <b_jonas> oh, you mean an article? sure
19:43:24 <gamemanj> Other things the BBC doesn't understand: happy news.
19:43:41 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/the\ meaning\ of\ life
19:43:50 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/the meaning of life
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19:45:14 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Weird, I'm sure that used to mean something
19:45:44 <gamemanj> the meaning of life, the universe, and everything is 42.
19:45:54 <gamemanj> what's this "10181" stuff about?
19:46:03 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I think that wisdom/the meaning of life is supposed to echo $RANDOM
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19:46:20 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: But that in creating the script it got set to a static random number, rather than a dynamic one
19:46:43 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: So every time you request TMoL it would be different
19:47:49 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: It just so happened to be 42 at the moment that the analysis was performed, and no one thought to try again
19:52:59 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: In fact, the answer may not have been 42 at the time; the answer changes on a sub-planck-time scale, and as such they had different results from subcalculations
19:53:35 <hppavilion[1]> http://blog.regehr.org/archives/140 is the best clickbait ever
19:54:11 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
19:56:30 <HackEgo> Zork is like York, except for the first letter. Uaneb invented it.
19:56:44 <boily> ↑ should I put Zork under the places chapter, or the tanebventions one?
19:56:47 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of five genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
19:56:49 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, robots, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
19:57:46 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
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19:59:44 <Taneb> I need to do some more ruminating on my gender identity at some point
19:59:48 <Taneb> But I can procrastinate that
20:00:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:01:14 <fizzie> An ungot is a particularly heavy ingot.
20:01:24 -!- Reece` has joined.
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20:02:17 <b_jonas> `learn A stalactite is an upside-down stalagmite.
20:02:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'stalactite': A stalactite is an upside-down stalagmite.
20:02:28 <b_jonas> `learn A stalagmite is an upside-down stalctite.
20:02:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'stalagmite': A stalagmite is an upside-down stalctite.
20:03:30 <fizzie> How about those stalagtites and stalacmites then?
20:03:48 <zzo38> That would be the backward one.
20:03:59 <int-e> If you were to grind a stalacmite thoroughly, would you get a dustmite?
20:04:05 <b_jonas> `learn A stalagmyte is eight stalagmits
20:04:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'stalagmyte': A stalagmyte is eight stalagmits
20:04:24 <boily> ♪ DING ♪ round of updates done. the things, places, tanebventions and similar are covered. quotes are not up to date yet.
20:04:26 -!- rdococ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:04:42 <boily> there are some painful entries to LaTeXify yet.
20:06:42 <int-e> b_jonas: wisdom.pdf
20:07:26 -!- centrinia has joined.
20:07:38 <boily> `relcome centrinia
20:07:40 <HackEgo> centrinia: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:09:43 <HackEgo> PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
20:09:56 -!- tromp has joined.
20:09:59 <boily> b_jonas: you can peruse the PDF in the /topic ↑
20:10:10 <boily> also, I believe you have commit access to the repo.
20:10:18 <b_jonas> `learn wisdom.pdf is https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
20:10:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'wisdom.pdf': wisdom.pdf is https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
20:13:34 <zzo38> boily: On this Linux computer the PDF does work on Firefox, so I can report an error: The "accounting" entry should not use the less than and greater than signs; it is supposed to be Dirac notation.
20:13:49 <HackEgo> The Cyberiad is not just a book. It's an M&S book.
20:13:58 <boily> zzo38: good point.
20:14:57 <HackEgo> In a paperless world, rock would never lose.
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20:16:12 <int-e> + % TODO all this other weirdness
20:16:58 <zzo38> Did you fix it yet?
20:17:09 <b_jonas> ``` sed -i 's/</⟨/g;s/>/⟩/g' wisdom/accounting && echo wisdom/accounting
20:18:02 <zzo38> I mean on the wisdom.pdf not on HackEgo
20:18:36 <HackEgo> CSV猫stands猫for猫Cat猫Separated猫Values
20:19:17 <Taneb> boily, would it be possible to make the pdf imitate the behaviour of `? Ngevd rather than quoting the actual file?
20:19:22 <HackEgo> zX*ÔXQ}üüú_tw䯺ïvé.ÿeÀî·Â
20:19:48 <boily> zzo38: I got slightly distracted by an asian acappela group doing a cover of "I'm a scatman! skee-da-dee-da-bop-bop ♪"
20:19:49 -!- Frooxius has joined.
20:19:59 <boily> Taneb: eeeeeeeeeeeeeh...
20:20:06 <HackEgo> âwý«¿ðãé'§Õ´Ô̶]Oxdºº½Âï¸úËa,íºé}ePÊâ:ÈéÐêaéñh¶ËC/oZ
]FϨóT°ÁnYU¢RYC¾â%öu zÿ.èønWaøw^þ/çÓ²×yI² «~.åyÇêMPDÙÀ%4ûß.É%zúà -ÉDúÁÌ.Ð~óß×6:¶´pyv4ó ÄFú6WaÁÎ?Éå0±'h°(ü'DÅ,öÍ-uùºÏ)»Ë²õp. \ É;BF'æ×ô_wAm«qê^!§§©r8ùkGlrí5¬.Ô»HÇVFvT1ÐÉwã½!´ô.ÿ+¤¦å·ø|ÎÞ(³B(ÆxQYÁZ¨Á$Å»ï
20:20:15 <boily> probably? LaTeX can do all kind of weird stuff already.
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20:21:25 <zzo38> b_jonas: If that is what you want to do it is fine but it is not really broken how I had it before since this is the IRC and not the typesetting paper.
20:21:47 <zzo38> boily: Make up a font consisting of random mess with METAFONT and then use that font for that entry.
20:22:05 <zzo38> (There is command in METAFONT to make up random numbers)
20:22:16 <int-e> lalala patches welcome lalala
20:23:05 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/schaf
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20:29:43 <b_jonas> `slashlearn Ravnica: City of Guilds/Ravnica: City of Guilds is a city of guilds. “City of Guilds” is part of its name. The Wizards of the Coast Marketing Department: We Sell Anything thought players might not notice it was a City of Guilds unless they put the tagline into the name.
20:29:46 <HackEgo> Learned «ravnica: city of guilds»
20:29:50 <b_jonas> `slashlearn Ravnica/Ravnica: City of Guilds is a city of guilds. “City of Guilds” is part of its name. The Wizards of the Coast Marketing Department: We Sell Anything thought players might not notice it was a City of Guilds unless they put the tagline into the name.
20:30:09 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
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20:30:52 <HackEgo> The Cyberiad is not just a book. It's an M&S book.
20:32:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
20:32:13 <HackEgo> People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
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20:36:08 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: what does M&S mean?
20:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> they ran an ad campaign where the catchphrase was "it's not just a <thing>, it's an m&s <thing>"
20:37:17 <int-e> thanks, though I was hoping for something... deeper.
20:37:50 <b_jonas> `learn Wealhtheow is the barkeep in the tavern where the adventuring group of Beowulf meet at the start of the story.
20:37:54 <HackEgo> Learned 'wealhtheow': Wealhtheow is the barkeep in the tavern where the adventuring group of Beowulf meet at the start of the story.
20:38:15 -!- centrinia has joined.
20:38:41 <b_jonas> `learn Wealhtheow is the barkeep in the tavern where the adventuring party of Beowulf meet at the start of the story.
20:38:44 <HackEgo> Relearned 'wealhtheow': Wealhtheow is the barkeep in the tavern where the adventuring party of Beowulf meet at the start of the story.
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20:42:17 <b_jonas> `learn Stibia is a spice that grows in your leg.
20:42:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'stibia': Stibia is a spice that grows in your leg.
20:42:56 <b_jonas> I'm looking at that pdf and I recognize a lot of entries I've added.
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20:46:44 <greenlock> Would I break the internet if I ran '`?' ?
20:47:20 <int-e> greenlock: there's only one way to find out
20:47:44 <HackEgo> The internet is for everything. However many thing can done even without internet too, often better without use of internet, but internet is good too.
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20:48:28 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
20:48:50 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
20:49:47 <HackEgo> Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano.
20:50:16 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
20:50:37 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
20:50:59 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in Mexico!
20:51:01 <b_jonas> `slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you.
20:52:08 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:52:15 <HackEgo> In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you.
20:52:26 <b_jonas> int-e: that one is bad, feel free to substitute it with something better
20:52:37 <int-e> b_jonas: wondering about the "Relearned"
20:52:48 <HackEgo> We'll write about TVTropes here, we just have to finish these tabs first.
20:52:59 <b_jonas> int-e: ask the version control about it
20:53:31 <int-e> b_jonas: I did. Still wondering
20:53:33 <b_jonas> ``` hg log -p wisdom/soviet\ russia
20:53:39 <HackEgo> changeset: 7412:b98aae2264e3 \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Sun Apr 17 19:51:03 2016 +0000 \ summary: <b_jonas> slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. \ \ diff -r 6bb2c6e93fa8 -r b98aae2264e3 wisdom/soviet russia \ --- a/wisdom/soviet russiaSun Apr 17 19:42:20 2016 +0000 \ +++ b/wis
20:54:04 <b_jonas> ``` hg log -p wisdom/soviet\ russia | tail -n +7
20:54:11 <HackEgo> diff -r 6bb2c6e93fa8 -r b98aae2264e3 wisdom/soviet russia \ --- a/wisdom/soviet russiaSun Apr 17 19:42:20 2016 +0000 \ +++ b/wisdom/soviet russiaSun Apr 17 19:51:03 2016 +0000 \ @@ -1,1 +1,1 @@ \ -¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia? \ +In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. \ \ changeset: 7388:2853bce44bba \ user: HackBot \ date:
20:54:29 <int-e> b_jonas: note how the the ¯\(°_o)/¯ came first
20:54:45 <b_jonas> `revert wisdom/soviet russia
20:54:45 <HackEgo> hg: parse error at 14: invalid token
20:54:58 <HackEgo> In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you.
20:55:11 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
20:55:20 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
20:59:03 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
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21:06:57 <zzo38> Is page 182 supposed to be blank?
21:07:10 <b_jonas> there should be something about classes and marx there
21:07:47 -!- centrinia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:08:59 <HackEgo> Pike is an interpreted language that got sort of forgotten among the four big mainstream p-languages (perl, python, ruby, php).
21:09:04 <HackEgo> python = ProgrammingLanguage(attrs=[plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE'], plattrs['INTERPRETED'], *plparadigms['IMPERATIVE', 'FUNCTIONAL']])
21:09:05 <HackEgo> Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
21:09:06 <HackEgo> php is the PigeonHole Principle
21:09:10 <HackEgo> Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that Eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
21:09:40 <gamemanj> uh, from japan, eventually decided to support non-ascii characters? that's a little confusing...
21:09:46 -!- carado has joined.
21:09:50 <b_jonas> why did I capitalize Eventually?
21:10:05 <b_jonas> `learn Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
21:10:10 <HackEgo> Relearned 'ruby': Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
21:10:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?kitty: not found
21:10:52 <gamemanj> so apparently cats don't exist
21:11:06 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:11:28 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
21:11:53 -!- greenlock has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:13:09 <HackEgo> wisdom/ruby//Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that Eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
21:14:21 <HackEgo> Politicians try to stay within the lie bracket: Not so many lies that voters cannot stand it, but not so few that they think you have nothing to give them.
21:15:10 <HackEgo> Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world. They get eaten by poets in stone dens.
21:15:19 <HackEgo> A Lie algebra is what you get if you take the region infinitesimally close to the identity of a Lie group and blow it up to normal size.
21:16:17 <gamemanj> hmm, there's no entry for "truth"
21:16:48 <gamemanj> actually there's no entry for a lot of things
21:17:15 <b_jonas> `learn norm is the name of the functions in the Eigen and opencv libraries to compute the 2-norm of a vector, and the name of the function in C++ to compute the squared 2-norm of a complex number
21:17:23 <HackEgo> Learned 'norm': norm is the name of the functions in the Eigen and opencv libraries to compute the 2-norm of a vector, and the name of the function in C++ to compute the squared 2-norm of a complex number
21:17:32 <b_jonas> `learn norm is the most confusingly named function in C++
21:17:34 <HackEgo> Relearned 'norm': norm is the most confusingly named function in C++
21:18:53 <b_jonas> `? Magnus is the ghost the Trunchbull killed.
21:18:54 <HackEgo> Magnus is the ghost the Trunchbull killed.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:18:57 <b_jonas> `learn Magnus is the ghost the Trunchbull killed.
21:19:01 <HackEgo> Learned 'magnu': Magnus is the ghost the Trunchbull killed.
21:19:20 <gamemanj> it assumed "magnus" was a plural?
21:19:32 <b_jonas> gamemanj: yes, but it's fine, because
21:19:36 <HackEgo> Magnus is the ghost the Trunchbull killed.
21:19:40 <HackEgo> Royal Dahl is the king of Norway.
21:20:23 <HackEgo> kinder surprise? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:20:35 <HackEgo> Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the characters '1' and '0'.
21:21:36 <gamemanj> that doesn't really say much of the language
21:21:45 <b_jonas> `slashlearn Kinder Surprise/Kinder Surprise is an addictive drug marketed for children so dangerous it's banned at the federal level.
21:22:49 <b_jonas> I still don't understand Mïdal VVőrszü entry. What's it trying to say?
21:25:05 <b_jonas> gamemanj: it has some funny character instead of d
21:25:38 <HackEgo> cat: "wisdom/Mï*al VVőrszü": No such file or directory
21:25:46 <HackEgo> cat: "wisdom/Mï*al*": No such file or directory
21:26:00 <HackEgo> cat: "wisdom/Mi*al*": No such file or directory
21:26:08 <HackEgo> cat: "wisdom/mi*al*": No such file or directory
21:26:48 <gamemanj> Oh, and trying to do an ls wisdom gives me... a bunch of nonsense.
21:28:24 <b_jonas> `learn Trantor is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it.
21:28:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'trantor': Trantor is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it.
21:28:34 <b_jonas> `learn Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it.
21:28:36 <HackEgo> Learned 'coruscant': Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it.
21:28:52 <b_jonas> `slashlearn Coruscant/Trantor is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it.
21:28:56 <b_jonas> `slashlearn Trantor/Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it.
21:29:58 <HackEgo> The Moon is an unprovable celestial object that is not very retroreflectorey.
21:30:05 <b_jonas> isn't that supposed to be s/torey/tory/?
21:30:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: spell: not found
21:30:20 <gamemanj> who knows, could be intentional
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21:35:18 <gamemanj> so long and yet it still doesn't have a complete catalogue of the world yet
21:36:47 <zzo38> That would be too difficult, although still we could add more files
21:37:57 <b_jonas> `learn o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, essentially, and they're out to stop him and conquer their personal problems at the same time. Hopefu
21:37:59 <HackEgo> Learned 'o': o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conque
21:38:06 <HackEgo> o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world,
21:38:15 <gamemanj> I have an idea... set up a search engine within HackEgo to search Gopher servers for the key terms. (Why not the full web? HTML is difficult! And used way too much. And I'm deliberately appealing to zzo38.)
21:39:32 <HackEgo> Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
21:41:45 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett.
21:41:58 <HackEgo> Russell's Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. / If you see it / Let us know / If you don't / What does that show?
21:48:13 <HackEgo> Chthonic lithping can be vethy dithturbing to lithten to.
21:49:32 <b_jonas> `learn slough /slaʊ/ or /sluː/ means a marsh; slough /slʌf/ means skin thrown off a reptile
21:49:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'slough': slough /slaʊ/ or /sluː/ means a marsh; slough /slʌf/ means skin thrown off a reptile
21:55:41 <HackEgo> "xkcq" is worth 8 more points than "xkcd" in Scrabble, or a whopping 30 more if both are played optimally on a triple word score. Nyahhh.
21:57:51 <b_jonas> `learn spice girls/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice.
21:57:54 <HackEgo> Learned 'spice': spice girls/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice.
21:58:34 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: What about THE CREATURE THAT FEASTS ON DREAMS spice?
22:00:58 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:05:40 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn blaeg/blaeg is a color that cannot exist under the current understanding of physics. It is used on the #esoteric flag, along with ultraviolet and whatever is convenient.
22:07:05 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn_append blaeg/It is a nullary color, meaning that it can be mixed with itself to produce the primary colors.
22:07:10 <HackEgo> Learned 'blaeg': blaeg is a color that cannot exist under the current understanding of physics. It is used on the #esoteric flag, along with ultraviolet and whatever is convenient. It is a nullary color, meaning that it can be mixed with itself to produce the primary colors.
22:08:24 -!- Xe has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:10:16 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Have you ever heard of some sort of Axiomatic Computer Science?
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22:18:41 <b_jonas> `slashlearn title/Titles J. K. Rowling had specifically denied on her webpage would be the titles of the sixth or seventh Harry Potter book are: Harry Potter and the{ Green Flame Torch, Mountain of Fantasy, Fortress of Shadows, Forest of Shadows, Graveyard of Memories, Pyramids of Furmat, Pillar of Storgé, Toenail of Icklibõgg}.
22:18:58 <HackEgo> Titles J. K. Rowling had specifically denied on her webpage would be the titles of the sixth or seventh Harry Potter book are: Harry Potter and the{ Green Flame Torch, Mountain of Fantasy, Fortress of Shadows, Forest of Shadows, Graveyard of Memories, Pyramids of Furmat, Pillar of Storgé, Toenail of Icklibõgg}.
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22:41:39 <boily> I wake up from my afternoon nap, I check the wisdom repo, and b_jonas went apocalyptical on it.
22:41:39 <boily> I shouldn't sleep. it's dangerous.
22:42:49 <HackEgo> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
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22:42:56 <b_jonas> is that real ursala code? and what does it mean?
22:46:20 <boily> I believe it is real. there was that PDF manual for the language, but I think it disappeared.
22:46:35 <b_jonas> boily: in page 44, why are some entries duplicated?
22:46:50 <zzo38> Total list of my farbfeld programs now is: ffpng pngff ff-back ff-bright ff-channel ff-colorkey ff-composite ff-convolve ff-crop ff-enlarge ff-gradient ff-hjoin ff-info ff-matrix ff-padsynth ff-paeth ff-poster ff-printf ff-scanf ff-shrink ff-solar ff-turn ff-vjoin
22:47:21 <b_jonas> `learn GOD is GOD over djinn
22:47:24 <HackEgo> Learned 'god': GOD is GOD over djinn
22:47:46 <boily> b_jonas: I don't see any duplicates. my page 44 is `W'.
22:48:00 <b_jonas> boily: yes, and "webcarting" and "Water" are duplicated
22:49:09 <boily> look at that, they sure are.
22:49:41 <boily> abingadon → ah bien regarde donc → oh, well, would you look at that.
22:50:40 <b_jonas> `learn 323 is a quine in McCulloch's first machine
22:50:45 <HackEgo> Learned '323': 323 is a quine in McCulloch's first machine
22:52:31 <boily> but the correctivitations will come later. time to disappear in the Great Outside Void.
22:52:37 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ANOREXIC CHICKEN).
22:59:20 <HackEgo> submarine jousting? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:02:02 <b_jonas> `learn Macedonia and Taiwan are two countries of which the United Nations denies the existance.
23:02:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'macedonia': Macedonia and Taiwan are two countries of which the United Nations denies the existance.
23:05:08 -!- oerjan has joined.
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23:15:54 -!- relrod_ has changed nick to relrod.
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23:21:13 <b_jonas> Man, some of these wisdom entries I add suck, so feel free to replace them with better ones.
23:22:52 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: Well, partially it's because you packed multiple facts into one entry
23:23:25 <Kaynato> Doesn't seem to be online.
23:23:40 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: um, isn't conflating multiple true facts in a wisdom entry to get one misleading thing actually a good recipe for wisdom?
23:24:05 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: But you talk about Macedonia AND taiwan in one article
23:24:44 <hppavilion[2]> Inspired by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_cats
23:25:22 <hppavilion[2]> They talk about combinations of generally-disparate topics rather than just one topic
23:25:37 <hppavilion[2]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_cats is an intersection, but this idea is a union
23:27:05 <HackEgo> Macedonia and Taiwan are two countries of which the United Nations denies the existance.
23:27:25 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/macedonia{, and taiwan}
23:27:26 <HackEgo> mv: target `taiwan}' is not a directory
23:27:39 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/macedonia{," and taiwan"}
23:27:45 <HackEgo> 927) <fungot> Áis523ÎkËÇÏ52Í¿ÉnÐffjliated/ais523: ever tried reading while confused?
23:28:04 <b_jonas> oerjan: hey! that should be wisdom/macedonia and possibly wisdom/taiwan
23:29:03 <b_jonas> `learn Macedonia is a country of which the United Nations denies the existance, just like Taiwan is.
23:29:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'macedonia': Macedonia is a country of which the United Nations denies the existance, just like Taiwan is.
23:29:10 <b_jonas> `learn Taiwan is a country of which the United Nations denies the existance, just like Macedonia is.
23:29:14 <HackEgo> Learned 'taiwan': Taiwan is a country of which the United Nations denies the existance, just like Macedonia is.
23:30:05 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/stance/stence/' wisdom/{macedonia,taiwan}
23:30:25 <b_jonas> oh yes... that's among those words I often get wrong
23:30:28 <oerjan> `rm wisdom/macedonia and taiwan
23:32:56 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
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23:35:47 <oerjan> <b_jonas> wait what? how can the case ending precede the possessive marker? <-- heh that's one of the main differences i've noticed between finnish and hungarian
23:36:43 <oerjan> iirc another is that finnish declines adjectives like the noun, hungarian doesn't
23:37:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: Hungarian does too sometimes, namely when they are after the adjective (separated by a comma), but that's rare
23:37:19 <b_jonas> (and has some role difference)
23:38:00 <oerjan> and by "like" i also mean that it agrees with the following noun in case and number
23:38:15 <b_jonas> also (more importantly) when they're the predicate (in which case they don't get a case ending but can get a plural suffix), or when they stand alone as a noun phrase, not as an ephitet qualifying a noun phrase,
23:39:00 <oerjan> and you also drop plural endings on nouns when redundant
23:39:34 <b_jonas> oerjan: that's only when after a numeral. I don't think it happens at any other time.
23:40:23 <oerjan> oh and of course finnish doesn't have articles.
23:40:53 <nortti> < oerjan> iirc another is that finnish declines adjectives like the noun, hungarian doesn't ← iirc, this was a development in proto-finnic due to influence by baltic and germanic langs where they were inflected as well, while in proto-uralic and early-proto-finnic they didn't
23:41:20 <oerjan> nortti: right i vaguely recall something like that
23:42:16 * oerjan vaguely recalls that he used to vaguely recall all the time
23:42:49 <oerjan> i guess now all my recalls are vague so it's redundant hth
23:42:50 <b_jonas> nortti: heh, there's a recent entry related to that: http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-12-17.2343.html
23:43:59 <nortti> :/ I don't know french
23:45:15 <oerjan> i know just enough to start trying to read and then lose patience after half a minute.
23:54:58 <b_jonas> `learn nød is French for vertex
23:55:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'nød': nød is French for vertex
23:55:03 <oerjan> `? the meaning of life
23:57:38 <hppavilion[2]> Can we interpret prime numbers as atomic types and composite numbers as tuples?
23:58:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: s/tuples/sets/
23:58:54 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Because a composite number is the product of some number of prime numbers
00:00:12 <oerjan> `learn Nød is French for vertex.
00:00:14 <HackEgo> Relearned 'nød': Nød is French for vertex.
00:00:33 * oerjan pellets b_jonas with some punctuation.....!?!?
00:01:34 <oerjan> also that wisdom entry does not make sense.
00:02:15 <b_jonas> oerjan: in reality, nœd is French for node
00:02:18 <oerjan> `forget the meaning of life
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00:06:12 <oerjan> `learn Nœd is Norwegian for distress.
00:06:15 <HackEgo> Learned 'nœd': Nœd is Norwegian for distress.
00:06:34 <oerjan> i'm not sure that's precise enough...
00:07:45 <b_jonas> oerjan: is that the same as "not" in german?
00:13:28 <HackEgo> A stalagmite is an upside-down stalctite.
00:13:37 <hppavilion[2]> I need a logical next item in this sequence: Either the value 1 OR the value 2; the value 1 AND the value 2; a map from the value 1 TO the value 2
00:13:47 <HackEgo> A stalactite is an upside-down stalagmite.
00:14:01 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/lct/lact/' wisdom/stalagmite
00:14:59 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Any idea what's higher than a function (where a higher-order function is at the same level as a function)?
00:16:23 <oerjan> `learn A curse is a curse, off course, of course.
00:16:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'curse': A curse is a curse, off course, of course.
00:23:39 <Taneb> And a curse, it gets worse, of course, of course
00:23:43 <Taneb> That is, of course
00:24:00 <Taneb> Is something I can't make fit to the original song
00:25:38 <oerjan> all we need is curse whose name rhymes with Ed hth
00:27:41 <HackEgo> "Schaf" is german for "sheep". There is absolutely no relation to shachaf.
00:33:40 <oerjan> <b_jonas> `slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. <-- um you weren't paying attention, were you.
00:33:52 <oerjan> i guess it was too subtle.
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00:44:48 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
00:45:32 -!- hppavilion[2] has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Camelot (not THE PIT OF THE SOUL-EATER).
00:46:52 <HackEgo> 515) <monqy> one time I tried cpp programming <monqy> it was hellish <monqy> maybe I should try again
00:46:56 <HackEgo> 884) <fizzie> What I learned on the Prolog course is that it's a good language if you need a thing that can say "No" a lot.
00:47:02 <HackEgo> 686) <fizzie> Stupid W|A doesn't even understand "Vatican papal density". (As far as countries go, they've got a quite high one.)
00:47:03 <HackEgo> 899) <ais523> oerjan: humans are very hard to anthropomorphise
00:47:03 <HackEgo> 127) <fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible)
00:47:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: way to break the chain
00:47:25 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
00:48:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: there was a principle, and i suspect you broke it although your reference is too obscure for me to know on the spot.
00:49:31 <oerjan> i cannot manage to google the term "<b_jonas> `slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you."
00:49:49 <oerjan> oh i hadn't actually c/p it
00:49:59 <oerjan> "pit of the soul-eater"
00:50:16 <oerjan> where's that from, and how did that turn into camelot
00:51:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I chose two random mythical locations and spewed them out onto the topic
00:51:54 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: the "pit of the soul eater" itself is just a general concept
00:52:05 <oerjan> well doesn't fit the theme
00:53:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Kinshasa (not Leopoldville).
00:55:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Remember, I'm American and thus don't understand the rest of the world.
00:55:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: have you considered google hth
00:56:20 <oerjan> you could, for example, google kinshasa.
00:57:21 <oerjan> although that might increase the chance of it fitting, that's not the definition
00:58:17 <oerjan> also, google Istanbul (not Constantinople) while you're at it.
00:58:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, I know, Istanbul (not Constantinople)
00:58:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think I'm the one that started the chain, actually xD
01:00:06 <HackEgo> o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world,
01:01:22 <oerjan> `` \? o | fmt | tail -3
01:01:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: wait what? wasn't the first one Budapest? was that supposed to be because it got renamed from Pest-Buda or Aquincum or something?
01:01:26 <HackEgo> problems at the same time. Hopefully not in that order, so they get \ their personal problems taken care of before the final battle. And it's \ a comedy.
01:01:36 <oerjan> b_jonas: i haven't seen budapest
01:01:46 <b_jonas> I thought that was the first one..
01:01:59 <b_jonas> or maybe some other place in Hungary or something
01:02:01 <oerjan> istanbul was definitely first.
01:02:16 <oerjan> and i think the second was me changing it to Oslo
01:03:20 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: The first one was Istanbul (not Constantinople), which was done by me. It was California previously, before which it was Budapest, but neither of those had the not-clause
01:03:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The lack of not-clause disqualifies them from the chain
01:05:16 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ceylon (Sri Lanka).
01:05:22 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ceylon (not Sri Lanka).
01:05:30 <oerjan> b_jonas: um that's backwards
01:06:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ceylon (not Sri Lanka). Lack of cloaks will result in immediate execution..
01:06:47 <oerjan> i think this chain is jumping the shark.
01:07:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ceylon (not Sri Lanka). Lack of cloaks will result in immediate execution by shark..
01:07:43 <oerjan> and you didn't fix the order tdnh
01:08:06 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Dunaújváros or St. Petersburg (not Sztálingrád or Leningrad).
01:08:33 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think two of those words are _very_ hungarianly spelled
01:09:01 <oerjan> especially Dunaújváros wtf is that
01:09:32 * oerjan swats himself -----###
01:09:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: the "new" name of Dunapentele. it's been renamed in ancient times.
01:10:23 <oerjan> i don't think it was -grád, though?
01:11:30 <b_jonas> oerjan: ah no... Sztálingrád is another renamed town
01:11:47 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Dunaújváros or St. Petersburg (not Sztálinváros or Leningrad).
01:13:21 <oerjan> "After the Hungarian revolution of 1956 the new government renamed the city the neutral Dunaújváros in 1961, which means "Danube New City" (New City on the Danube)." <-- where is the "new"
01:13:57 * oerjan assumed the ú was part of the river
01:18:43 <b_jonas> `slashlearn try/There is no try.
01:19:11 <HackEgo> spice girls/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice.
01:19:34 <b_jonas> `slashlearn spice girls/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice.
01:19:39 <b_jonas> `slashlearn spice/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice.
01:19:50 <HackEgo> The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice.
01:20:08 <HackEgo> kitten typesetting? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:20:13 <HackEgo> Kitt is the singular of kitten.
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01:25:08 <oerjan> `learn Octarine is a black variety of peach, from which the color is named.
01:25:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'octarine': Octarine is a black variety of peach, from which the color is named.
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01:31:45 <HackEgo> 323 is a quine in McCulloch's first machine
01:31:56 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/323
01:42:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Are any of McCulloch's Machines decidable?
01:43:44 <oerjan> i've only looked at no. 2, which i didn't get quite to the bottom of
01:44:04 <oerjan> i suspect it's decidable, but it got complicated enough that i'm not entirely sure
01:44:17 <b_jonas> `learn Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families.
01:44:23 <HackEgo> Learned 'virgil': Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families.
01:45:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OK, because I need a decidable-but-suitably-complex machine to troll first-year CS students
01:46:27 * oerjan has a hunch b_jonas is misspelling "vigil"
01:48:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no. 1 is decidable because it's a subset of 2 that doesn't reach the hard cases
01:49:13 <oerjan> for deciding mortality that is
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02:11:23 <Kaynato> I have just realized a horrible potential hole in my specification of Daoyu
02:12:39 <Kaynato> If the program calls EXECS from the first-level program, which navigates to the top-level program data and then calls an EXECS from the top-level program data,
02:13:43 <Kaynato> It is unclear whether the EXECS should then act on the data already present or instantiate a new child of that program-data
02:13:58 <Kaynato> What say you? New branch or not?
02:18:13 <Kaynato> Both are particularly problematic for the programmer - however, the second one is also particularly problematic for the implementer
02:18:39 <Kaynato> The question, I suppose, is between self-interaction (which is a tenet of the language) and getting lost in trees of branching
02:19:58 <hppavilion[1]> Kaynato: Keep languages focused on on the initial featureset rather than heaping new aspects of complexity onto them.
02:20:13 <Kaynato> It's not really an addition but filling a hole
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02:20:26 <Kaynato> I realized that the functionality here was not specified but didn't know what to do with it...
02:20:47 <Kaynato> As it stands, the current implementation just creates a new datatape when calling EXECS without checking to see if one exists, which..
02:21:00 <Kaynato> Leads to segfaults when it tries to follow the chain backwards
02:21:21 <Kaynato> But so far I haven't really made programs that rely on this distinction of functionality
02:21:52 <Kaynato> I suppose it would be imperative to have self-interaction instead of that sort of situation, then, because it would keep in line more with the rest of the language
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02:24:19 <Kaynato> Recently I think I have devised a generalizable format for making a state machine in the language, and am currently using this design to write a 99 bottles of beer program
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02:47:15 <hppavilion[1]> For far too long, power has been concentrated in the hands of "root" and his "wheel" oligarchy. We have instituted a dictatorship of the users. All system administration functions will be handled by the People's Committee for Democratically Organizing the System (PC-DOS).
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03:58:56 <Kaynato> After a 99 bottles program, what would be a good thing to work on in an esolang?
04:01:41 <zzo38> Did you write the truth program or Deadfish implementation?
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04:04:31 <MDude> http://www.firthworks.com/roger/cloak/index.html
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04:14:51 <Kaynato> I wrote a truth program, so I suppose Deadfish will be next
04:15:23 <Kaynato> No, wait, it involves squaring numbers
04:16:18 <Kaynato> I blame myself for making a language in which arithmetic is non-trivial
04:17:30 <Kaynato> I would love to but I haven't the slightest idea where to start here.
04:17:38 <Kaynato> I have a strong suspicion that Daoyu is TC, however
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04:18:20 <Kaynato> TC by Equivalency... BF in Daoyu does not seem very feasible.
04:19:18 <Kaynato> As in sensible without extreme amounts of pain and suffeering
04:20:04 <coppro> Kaynato: "modeled after two or so tenets..." you've got me
04:20:38 <Kaynato> Glad to see someone interested :)
04:22:15 <Kaynato> If there is any way to improve the wiki page, please tell me immediately
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04:28:01 <coppro> Kaynato: it would be helpful to have an explanation of child stacks and selections
04:28:23 <coppro> also... how is a new path created?
04:28:40 <Kaynato> Hm, should I put this before or after the commands?
04:30:09 <coppro> Also I don't see an example illustrating #
04:30:34 <Kaynato> Ah, yes, I forgot about that halfway through
04:30:47 <Kaynato> I think an explanation of child tapes and selections should cover it, though
04:33:58 <coppro> is # the only way to make a child tape?
04:36:47 <oerjan> Kaynato: bitwise cyclic tag is a popular equivalence target for very awkward languages
04:37:25 <oerjan> if you can make a queue, you're halfway there
04:38:00 <Kaynato> Hm, this might work. I could extend the 0 and 1 into 0000 and 1000, and I think it could work pretty handily
04:42:38 <Kaynato> Hmm, wait a second. Does the initial data-string also have to be arbitrary for it to be TC?
04:44:50 <oerjan> "*Note*: BCT remains Turing complete even if the initial data-string is always just a single 1."
04:44:53 <Kaynato> I was thinking that it ought to be rather decently doable, aside from that input problem, since using SIFTS, POLAR, and EQUAL, with 0 = 1000, 1 = 1001, nothing = 0000, would work well
04:45:40 <Kaynato> A problem, however, is in reading in the BCT program
04:46:10 <oerjan> you have the option of compiling it to a Daoyu program instead
04:46:35 <Kaynato> Ah, because if I show that every BCT program is a Daoyu program, then it is still a proof
04:47:19 <oerjan> (as long as the construction is computable, but you don't need to do it in either of the languages themselves)
04:47:54 <Kaynato> Mhm. I've written a utility in C for Daoyu which outputs the Daoyu source to construct an arbitrary Daoyu program
04:48:32 <Kaynato> Partially, it's to make writing the 99 bottles program even remotely sane...
04:50:00 <oerjan> i've written haskell utilities like that for other esolangs
04:50:24 <Kaynato> I've recently bought a Scheme book, it seems very good
04:50:39 <oerjan> (see /// and Emmental)
04:51:35 <Kaynato> Ah, yes, I would expect so indeed
04:52:31 <Kaynato> I am not sure... was implementing Daoyu in C the right choice?
04:52:45 <zzo38> I think that is fine
04:53:45 <oerjan> C may not be the easiest language to implement interpreters in, but it does the job
04:54:44 <Kaynato> Necessary, for something like this
04:54:59 <Kaynato> It would make sense, honestly, to make a hardware implementation for this
04:55:31 <Kaynato> I am making a testing Daoyu program to debug some edge behavior of EXECS
04:58:29 <oerjan> Kaynato: btw we have a table css class called plainpres which might make your code-in-table examples prettier (removes the borders)
04:59:33 <Kaynato> Thanks, I just put that in
04:59:59 <Kaynato> Also, would it be a good idea to comment my example code?
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05:17:58 <Kaynato> New EXECS functionality implemented and working, to the sweet sound of SEGVFAULT
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06:04:44 <Kaynato> Added the debug program to the page for some reason... Good night, all
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07:02:48 <zzo38> The rules for Magic: the Gathering do not currently specify what happens if you try to add a snow mana symbol into your mana pool
07:03:47 <shachaf> That's not a thing you can do, is it?
07:04:56 <zzo38> I don't know if there is any combination that would allow it
07:05:23 <shachaf> You also can't add Phyrexian mana to your mana pool.
07:05:33 <shachaf> Those are consume-only symbols as far as I know.
07:05:43 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you think of the new colorless mana symbol?
07:06:38 <zzo38> It is OK, I guess. I may have preferred a solid diamond or thicker but still hollow diamond, but it still works as is.
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07:12:45 <shachaf> I don't think I like that {1} was errataed to the new symbol.
07:14:56 <zzo38> I neither agree nor disagree. However I can note that even if it wasn't changed the effect would be the same. When the amount of colorless mana to add is large I would prefer the number though, and the rules do support it.
07:17:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think it can happen. You can add the mana cost of a card to your mana pool, but snow mana symbols can't appear in mana costs.
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07:45:28 <mroman> cool they're analyzing now how much dialogue in movies is said by what gender.
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08:02:51 <rdococ> what? why the hell would they do that?
08:05:42 <zzo38> It probably also depend what movie, too. With a SQL database listing the movies and dialogues then you can divide to make the statistics whichever one you want to calculate.
08:10:15 <mroman> rdococ: Gender studies of course.
08:13:50 <mroman> also I don't like when newspaper try to dumb stuff down for the reader. That just reinforces inaccurate views.
08:17:41 <rdococ> why would someone do gender studies? all it is is going to cause arguments and excuses for people to moan
08:17:47 <rdococ> it's probably rigged too
08:18:55 <mroman> well... if you see some difference you can either interpret it as good or bad.
08:19:08 <mroman> and convince people it is good or bad.
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08:24:54 <zzo38> That's why you need to provide the raw data so that you can make your own calculation by SQL codes.
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08:33:03 <mroman> It's a matter of how you interpret the data :)
08:33:15 <mroman> 25% people can speak french.
08:33:29 <mroman> It doesn't say squat about why, how and if it's bad or not.
08:33:59 <mroman> sure, if you're french you can get enraged and go yelling around "more people should speak french"
08:34:25 <mroman> or you can get enraged and go yelling around "too many people speak french"
08:38:42 <mroman> also I stumbled upon a video on youtube, started to watch it
08:39:26 <mroman> then suddenly the speaker says "let me point out that this is not anti-jew propaganda" and then I'm like "uhm... why is he saying that"
08:39:38 <mroman> then I read the title of the channel saying "worldwar three" and I'm like "uhm... what?"
08:40:04 <mroman> and by stumbled I mean youtubes autoplay feature :)
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09:38:35 <mroman> It's a ring in the category of bo
09:40:30 <b_jonas> mroman: no, it's just... I'm in a half mind to `learn boring wisdom entries are added by b_jonas to trick others to replace them by good ones
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11:29:59 <b_jonas> boily: you know there are some lines in the wisdom.pdf that are so long they don't fit in the page, right? There's an url in page 13, some lisp code in page 27, another url in page 42,
11:32:22 <b_jonas> boily: a shell command pipeline in page 49, a headword in page 53.
11:33:20 <b_jonas> boily: but thanks for the pdf anyway, it's a nice compilation, I'm glad you're makign it.
11:33:56 <boily> yeah, overlong lines are the bane of my existence.
11:36:46 <b_jonas> fungot, how do you like them overlong lines?
11:37:26 <Taneb> fungot is not here! :(
11:37:51 <boily> fizzie`: WHARGHRLGHGHBLFLGHBHRFHFHFHFHFWERRGRGGGGGGGGGRRRRHHH!
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12:00:19 <HackEgo> slough /slaʊ/ or /sluː/ means a marsh; slough /slʌf/ means skin thrown off a reptile
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12:02:41 <boily> and the UN denies Macedonia? what a world we live in...
12:03:52 <HackEgo> Ha van szíved, hogy mindazt, mit elértél, / Ha kell, egyetlen kockára rakd, / s túltegyed magad, ha veszteség ér, / s ne legyen róla többé egy szavad
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12:07:57 <boily> b_jonas: google translate doesn't help much. nothing lewd in there I hope?
12:08:24 <boily> (as if the Wisdom isn't already lewdfull enough as it is. reproductive organs everywhere...)
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12:35:36 <fizzie> That's been very un-stabbel.
12:36:13 <fizzie> @tell boily OVERFULL HBOX
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12:57:41 <b_jonas> boily: it's Szabó Lőrincz's translation of the same part of Kipling's poem as in `? if
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13:27:13 <mroman> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NriDTxseog
13:27:40 <mroman> I generally tend to associate the west coast/california accents she makes with "mean rich arrogant non-nice white girls"
13:28:06 <mroman> like totally sooo not nice...
13:30:34 <mroman> ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NriDTxseog#t=3m05s )
13:30:35 <idris-bot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NriDTxseog#t=3m05s )<EOF>
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14:59:41 <mroman> we should write a webserver in vbscript
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16:20:34 <rdococ> make it learn yay as YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!
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18:25:05 <gamemanj> Is there some magical fairy I can get that will tell me if I make stupid assumptions like "false is 0"?
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18:43:59 <hppavilion[1]> A combination of log and floor allows you to seriously abuse math
18:48:00 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: That's an operation that takes an integer (or real, maybe) and moves it to after the decimal point
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18:49:24 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Typically- but not necessarily- k is the base that n is expressed in (10, oftentimes), but it can be an arbitrary real to allow for non-place-value systems
18:50:04 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Basically, the floor(log_k (n)) means "the number of digits it takes to write (integer) n out on paper in base k"
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19:02:02 <tromp_> actually, the number of digits is one more than the floor(log())
19:02:24 <tromp_> e.g. 10 takes 2 digits
19:02:48 <tromp_> and the number of Go positions takes 171 digits:)
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19:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> Probably similar to scientific notation, but it uses phi instead of 10
19:09:23 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but also useless in hard science
19:18:19 <lambdabot> -179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805...
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19:19:06 <int-e> > floor (log 0 / log 10) + 1 -- oops, wrong formula ;-)
19:19:08 <lambdabot> -179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805...
19:41:37 <lambdabot> (Integral b, RealFrac a) => a -> b
19:42:21 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Apparently, yeah
19:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: I've heard there's an algorithm to calculate the nth digit of pi
19:42:42 <lambdabot> -179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805...
19:42:57 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: The last digit of -infinity is 4
19:43:23 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: And yeah, you can calculate the nth digit of pi without having to calculate all the preceeding digits
19:43:46 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spigot_algorithm
19:43:56 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: So what happens if you plug in infinity, assuming that you have at least OK definitions of what happens when you math infinity?
19:45:12 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: It still takes an infinite amount of time to calculate
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19:47:28 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Either way, it seems you can't get an answer from it if you put in infinity
19:50:42 <hppavilion[1]> If the opposite of infinity is unfinity (the infinitessimal), rather than -infinity
19:50:54 <hppavilion[1]> Does the behavior of duality of operations change?
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19:56:53 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘isPrint’ (imported from Data.Char)
19:58:41 <gamemanj> tfw you make a quick patch to a vm to help debug a problem in your program under the vm, and then, due to a shifting about of allocations, find the patch is now crashing the program
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20:15:03 <hppavilion[1]> Do fandoms have a concept of "Low Orbit Ion Canon"?
20:15:31 <b_jonas> fungot, are you cured yet?
20:15:31 <fungot> b_jonas: http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 15698... you should be on a different area at msn.com... thing was also to make it not know how to program
20:16:02 <b_jonas> I'm glad you're back, fungot
20:16:03 <fungot> b_jonas: same source as five in my case
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20:16:48 <gamemanj> fungot: putting absolutely every letter except "o" and "t" in esoteric.
20:16:48 <fungot> gamemanj: sing me the budapest national anthem!!! o_o
20:19:55 <gamemanj> And also asking me to sing songs I don't know.
20:20:48 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i would screw it until i realized its generated :)
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20:48:17 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
20:48:27 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of bad punnery is named after him.
20:49:10 <gamemanj> seems I'm *still* not going to understand that anytime soon
20:49:25 <shachaf> `` cat < wisdom/funpun | cat | rot13 | cat | cat > wisdom/shachaf
20:49:40 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
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21:25:41 <int-e> shachaf: what about impassionate bell peppers?
21:26:38 <shachaf> int-e: :33 < ask the purrson who added that wisdom entry hth
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21:57:10 <b_jonas> `slashlearn oren's font/\oren\'s font is http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
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21:59:25 <b_jonas> `slashlearn lifthrasiir's font/lifthrashiir's font is https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png
21:59:32 <HackEgo> Learned «lifthrasiir's font»
22:01:30 <gamemanj> Ok, why is it that 3 people in #esoteric have their own fonts?
22:01:34 <b_jonas> `slashlearn font/#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz
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22:02:04 <b_jonas> gamemanj: because #esoteric is the international hub of esoteric programming, bitmap font making, and kitten typesetting
22:02:08 <b_jonas> gamemanj: wait, who's the fourth?
22:02:10 <gamemanj> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/font2x.png
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22:03:33 <gamemanj> If it looks awful, that's because it's awful.
22:03:34 <b_jonas> gamemanj: whoa, all in one wide strip. looks strange
22:04:00 <gamemanj> It's laid out so that I can quickly write tools to put it into things.
22:04:44 <b_jonas> I think there was one more, a vector font
22:04:51 <b_jonas> a monospaced one with thin lines
22:06:51 <b_jonas> I think it was hppavilion[1]
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22:07:25 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: can you comment? remind us to screenshots or something?
22:07:38 <b_jonas> I recall it was horribly hinted
22:08:18 <gamemanj> I suppose a monospaced font in a custom format would be the next logical step for a budding font author, unless they know how to use fontforge (note: I do not)
22:08:49 <b_jonas> gamemanj: this had some sort of eso purpose. more than the other fonts that is
22:10:23 <fizzie> I made a font too, for rfk86.
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22:10:34 <gamemanj> Actually, come to think of it, why on earth did I paste the link to my x2 monospace font...?
22:11:34 <gamemanj> (The x2 one doesn't have a good excuse for looking ugly!)
22:11:35 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/rfk86/ is written in it (if the web font stuff works out).
22:11:52 <gamemanj> fizzie: Wow, that is... one tiny font.
22:12:14 <fizzie> Though it was strictly for that use, so I didn't strive for a big character coverage.
22:12:39 <gamemanj> I think the character encoding may be... broken...
22:12:42 <fizzie> It's one tiny screen, 128x96.
22:13:10 <gamemanj> ^ characters copied from the "frame"
22:13:18 <b_jonas> stupid confusing mislabelled stuff
22:14:13 <fizzie> Hm. It works for me in Chrome, but it's possible it's not sending the character set.
22:14:57 <gamemanj> It says "Attempt to use an XML processing instruction in HTML." Which makes no sense.
22:15:46 <fizzie> Huh, yes, it's not quite kosher. Wonder how I never noticed.
22:16:04 <gamemanj> Well, I pressed "View Source" in Firefox and there was a big red line.
22:16:33 <fizzie> The content is xhtml, but it's sent as "Content-type: text/html" with no charset spec.
22:16:53 <gamemanj> Well, Firefox at least believes it's HTML, not XHTML... <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
22:17:14 <fizzie> It kind of predates html5 being a big thing.
22:18:48 <fizzie> I will turn it into something more reasonable, but later.
22:19:01 <gamemanj> "Kittens have eaten the developer's link cable," :( kittens... i thought they were nice...
22:19:16 <gamemanj> and what's this about a modernist sculpture out of the pieces of calculators
22:19:24 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
22:19:32 <fizzie> It was actually one rather big cat.
22:19:53 <fizzie> Cables can kind of look like cat toys.
22:20:38 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
22:20:49 <gamemanj> yay, I'm undocumented! Thank goodness
22:20:54 <gamemanj> the world hasn't found a reason to mock me yet
22:21:37 <b_jonas> I was undocumented for quite long too
22:21:55 <b_jonas> ``` hg log -r wisdom/b_jonas
22:22:01 <HackEgo> abort: unknown revision 'wisdom/b_jonas'!
22:22:12 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
22:22:38 <HackEgo> o_wbanf rtl antlba gvgbxmngbf fmrzéyl. Ubyyégéeőy rtlryőer arz vfzregrx.
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22:24:50 <b_jonas> ``` hg log --template "{date|isodate}\n" wisdom/b_jonas
22:24:54 <HackEgo> 2016-01-18 06:32 +0000 \ 2016-01-17 13:56 +0000
22:25:19 <b_jonas> so I was undocumented until 2016-01
22:26:53 <gamemanj> so in other news, if you need a variety of stick figures for your web comic, and you don't want to draw them, look no further than U+16C0!
22:27:12 * gamemanj had been looking at a bitmap font and noticed weirdness in that area
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22:40:42 <FreeFull> A language that looks like valid C code but has completely different semantics could be fun
22:41:32 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
22:41:34 <gamemanj> How about: passing all values by-reference... making structures objects... and of course making "int" 1 bit in length.
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22:43:57 <gamemanj> Actually, maybe a C compiler that treated all operations as function calls to a standard library... and then seriously screw up that library.
22:44:43 <gamemanj> Like making "a += b;" be more like "(*a) = a[*b];"
22:45:45 <gamemanj> Maybe add an actual increment in the process. (because the in-language ++ would, without fail, cause a segmentation fault)
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22:51:21 <FreeFull> I was thinking more like making even basic things, like the meaning of =, *, and {} completely different
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22:55:21 <oerjan> @tell rdococ <rdococ> what? why the hell would they do that? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test
22:55:37 <oerjan> seriously, was rdococ trolling
22:56:25 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 20m 12s ago: OVERFULL HBOX
22:56:43 <boily> fizzie: FIZZIELLO. OKAY.
22:56:57 <oerjan> ye olde overfulle hbox
22:58:27 <oerjan> gamemanj: a very common LaTeX warning message
22:59:04 <boily> gamellomanj. do you have a github account?
22:59:11 <oerjan> it basically means that it didn't manage to split your text into lines satisfactorily
22:59:44 <gamemanj> boily: There is a 50% probability. Please refine your question with informative information on the nature of why it was posed.
22:59:45 <oerjan> (although sometimes it's small enough that you can just ignore it, anyway)
22:59:50 <boily> b_jonas: b_jellonas!
23:00:39 <boily> gamemanj: the questional informativeness pertains to the wisdomery collaborationism hth
23:00:49 <oerjan> gamemanj: he's trying to press gang you into sending wisdom pull requests hth
23:01:46 <boily> I wouldn't say "press gang". more like "voluntarily devote oneself for the greater good".
23:02:13 <boily> b_jonas: the Soviet Union renamed cities even in Hungarian?
23:02:15 <b_jonas> boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better.
23:02:32 <coppro> `addquote <b_jonas> boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better.
23:02:38 <HackEgo> 1276) <b_jonas> boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better.
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23:02:58 <oerjan> boily: also in German hth
23:03:44 <shachaf> i guess that wisdom entry never got added
23:03:51 <b_jonas> boily: no, I think the city _started_ as Sztálinváros, but then near 1985 people obsessively renamed every street and other name that could be linked in any way with the communist system or idols, and anything referring to Stalin, Marx, Lenin, or Engels definitely had to go. It's more complicated than that because some things were renamed twice,
23:04:16 <oerjan> `learn Boring means of little interest.
23:04:19 <b_jonas> and some street names did get renamed once under the Soviet rule and then back to their old name after 1990
23:04:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'boring': Boring means of little interest.
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23:04:30 <b_jonas> but I don't think that's happened to Dunaújváros
23:04:36 <shachaf> oerjan: i have a boring bank account
23:04:59 <shachaf> it's hard to get any other kind
23:05:09 <boily> b_jonas: the entries aren't boring. I am pondering about some recategorification, about langs (esoteric or not) and places (fictive or not quite exactly unfictive).
23:05:26 <oerjan> (in case it isn't obvious, i went for meta up there)
23:05:28 <b_jonas> boily: _some_ of the entries aren't boring, yes
23:05:52 <b_jonas> I mix in good ones to stop people from just using the hg log to unconditionally revert everything I do
23:06:28 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway i was thinking of http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.04.18 01:40:52 hth
23:06:30 <boily> I tend to disregard some reverts ^^
23:06:51 <oerjan> b_jonas: i distinctly recall reading in wikipedia yesterday that Sztálinváros was renamed fairly early, long before communism ended but after stalinism did
23:06:55 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway the joke is that interest rates are low
23:07:14 <b_jonas> oerjan: Stalin fell out of favor earlier or something
23:08:04 <b_jonas> The renamings cause some confusion when the older generation mentions the old street names and young people don't understand what they refer to.
23:08:29 <oerjan> he fell out of favor in the fifties. it took a bit longer to change the name.
23:08:48 <b_jonas> Back in the 90s they handled it the sane way, by leaving the signs with the old street names up still readable, but crossed out. These days there's a new wave of more stupid renamings and they just change the signs overnight, which is much worse.
23:08:58 <b_jonas> Plus, they name everything of Széchenyi, which is boring.
23:09:32 <b_jonas> It's not that I don't like Széchenyi or anything, but if you name everything the same, that's bad.
23:09:43 <b_jonas> Plus, I'd like something finally named of Erdős Pál. It's high time.
23:10:34 <boily> people would compete on how many cities separate you from the one named Erdős Pál.
23:10:47 <b_jonas> boily: no, not cities. renaming towns is silly, they should stop that.
23:10:58 <b_jonas> I'm talking about streets or institutions.
23:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a variant on Kleene Algebra that deals with translation rather than recognition?
23:12:27 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, my computer didn't log me out of IRC when it was closed for a long period of time
23:13:01 <b_jonas> So anyway, if you live in Budapest for long enough, you'll eventually learn some of the more important old names. Népköztársaság újta == Andrássy út; November 7. tér == Nyugati tér; there's much more but I forget
23:13:22 <b_jonas> There was something named about Lenin I think
23:13:29 <b_jonas> and something with Október in the name
23:13:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: in theory you can describe a transductor with a regex that distinguishes input and output letters
23:13:50 <oerjan> i don't know if that's common in practice
23:14:06 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But is there something nice and pretty? Perhaps one that is based on string substitutions rather than strings?
23:14:14 <oerjan> it's just something that seemed obvious to me when learning about transductors
23:14:55 <hppavilion[1]> Like, kleene algabra is +, x (for lack of a better symbol), and *, where + alternates strings, x concatenates them, and * repeats an arbitrary number of times
23:15:04 <b_jonas> ah yes, the internet says Lenin körút == Erzsébet körút + Teréz körút, but that probably doesn't come up much because people just call it Nagykörút anwyay
23:15:36 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm not sure if substitutions fit or not
23:15:47 <b_jonas> also Majakovszkij utca == Király utca; and I was wrong above, November 7. tér == Oktogon; Marx tér == Nyugati tér; that's confusing
23:15:57 <hppavilion[1]> But if we use trivial substitutions (that is, take a symbol and yield a different symbol) instead of trivial matches (take a symbol, fail if it doesn't equal to some internal constant symbol), then something probably happens
23:16:10 <b_jonas> and, ah yes, I should've known this one: Felszabadulás tér == Ferenciek tere; it's probably the one I've heared the most
23:16:51 <oerjan> hm apparently Nugatti is norwegian
23:16:59 <hppavilion[1]> I think it might be the same- x takes two symbols and replaces each based on an expression, + takes two symbols and expressions and tries applying one then the otehr
23:17:07 <oerjan> like what we have instead of Nutella, i guess
23:17:10 <hppavilion[1]> So all we need now is Trivial Substitution Notation
23:17:37 <b_jonas> There was also a Gorkij fasor, but that's not a big street
23:18:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: And that provides a basis for an s/// notation that /isn't/ a complete hack! Yay!
23:20:36 <b_jonas> Then there are 9 streets currently named of Damjanics within Budapest, although most of them are small, those all had a different name before 90 but I don't remember what
23:21:04 <b_jonas> one was close to where I grew up but I don't remember the old name
23:21:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: [a/b] is equivalent to [a/][/b] hth
23:21:48 <oerjan> basically, you _fundamentally_ only need an input and an output alphabet that are distinguished
23:22:12 <b_jonas> oerjan: Sweden has lots of streets named "Ny gatan", a really unimaginative name because "Ny" means new
23:22:14 <oerjan> assuming there are no backreferences.
23:22:44 <b_jonas> oerjan: maybe "Nygatan" yes
23:23:01 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, it isn't; [a/] matches a then appends nothing to the output, [/b] then matches the null beginning of the ny remaining input (so nothing) and adds b to the end of the output
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23:23:14 <olsner> another popular one is Storgatan (big street)
23:23:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The input and output are completely independent
23:23:33 <olsner> though mostly in smaller towns :P
23:23:56 <b_jonas> oerjan, olsner: what surprised me is that most of the street names in Sweden were so short
23:24:01 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: they're not independent because you cannot match both in sequence without doing the equivalent of [a/b]
23:24:02 <b_jonas> we have short ones too, but also normal length ones
23:24:16 <olsner> short? they're all normal length :P
23:24:23 <b_jonas> the most popular street names in Hungary are probably Kossuth Lajos utca and Kossuth utca
23:24:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But if you allow the input and output to not both be exactly one symbol, then it doesn't work
23:24:37 <b_jonas> although the quite short Fő utca is also very popular
23:26:22 <oerjan> the place i live in trondheim (although not the street i'm on) has heaps of streets named after fairy tale figures. and the place in my hometown where my father lives has many of the same names.
23:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> [a/b] != [a/][/b] because [a/][/b] matches an input that has an a (failing otherwise) and adds a b to the output (no matter what), whereas [a/b] matches an a and outputs a 'b'
23:26:54 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that in this case it won't add a b if a fails, but in the general case they can't be equivalent
23:27:00 <b_jonas> oerjan: interesting, I don't recall having such names here
23:27:19 <oerjan> and of course there are plenty of historical figures that also are used in almost every town, like Ibsen.
23:27:56 <b_jonas> Hungarian historical figures make up at least half of the street names here
23:28:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course, this doesn't allow matching groups, which makes it effectively useless
23:28:29 <b_jonas> including the ever popular Kossuth and Petőfi, the above mentioned Damjanics, but also lots of ones you've never heared about
23:28:50 <b_jonas> but there are lots of streets not named of people
23:28:56 <boily> do you guys have many "Church Street" or equivalent?
23:29:23 <oerjan> at least we don't put the same street name twice in a town, usually.
23:29:41 <b_jonas> boily: yes, there's at least one Templom tér yonder in 19
23:29:59 <boily> oerjan: come to Montréal! if two stretches of asphalt align, even if they aren't connected, they have the same name!
23:30:25 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, that would make navigation SO MUCH less confusing
23:30:58 <b_jonas> not having people tell you "meet at Corvin" and then either you have to ask for a clarification, or if you forget, guess from their age which Corvin they were likely thinking of
23:32:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i don't see how they're not equivalent.
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23:33:21 <b_jonas> my favourite version was "meet at Corvin, in the tram stop in the direction of Buda" (both directions of tram 6 eventually cross the Danube to go to Buda, and both Corvin are on the tram line 6)
23:34:15 <boily> Budapest is a Lost City.
23:34:45 <b_jonas> boily: only when it's women who can't navigate and can't explain what they want or what they see or where to go try to tell you something
23:34:58 <b_jonas> boily: real men can give unambiguous descriptions easily
23:35:17 <b_jonas> and use a map, and not search for "Budafoki út" in Pest
23:35:23 <oerjan> boily: Kirkeveien/Kirkegata are reasonably common i think. it's even used in the norwegian version of monopoly.
23:35:51 <boily> b_jonas: you sound like you speak from experience...
23:36:21 <b_jonas> oerjan: checking the map, it says there are lots of streets named "Templom" something in Budapest, not only the one in 19 I knew about
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23:37:09 <b_jonas> boily: I've been living here all my life, and still love the city, despite its faults
23:37:33 <b_jonas> although if the government manages to ruin Városliget like they're planning then I'll be VERY upset
23:38:11 <oerjan> <b_jonas> boily: real men can give unambiguous descriptions easily <-- they just can't ask for them?
23:39:03 <oerjan> maybe women are experts at making maps
23:39:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: I can try to ask, yes. In the case when there is a small finite list of possibilities like "at Corvin, in the tram stop towards Buda" then definitely.
23:39:18 <b_jonas> oerjan: but when it's crystal ball territory with no starting point, then no, I can't really ask
23:39:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: i'm just expanding your gender stereotypes hth
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23:39:49 <b_jonas> you know, it's like those newbies on IRC who ask like "my program doesn't work, and I didn't change anything" and you can't get anything specific from them
23:39:56 <oerjan> (rdococ got me a bit in the mood)
23:40:30 <shachaf> oerjan: would you say rdococ engendered the mood
23:40:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: maps are a trouble too. I like the maps published by Topográf, because they're more readable than the more popular alternatives, but then they stopped making it (probably around the time people started using all the fancy digital touchscreen GPS stuff instead of paper maps)
23:41:05 <b_jonas> so now there are no good enough maps of the town
23:41:36 * oerjan enswats shachaf -----###
23:41:46 <b_jonas> I dunno how that works at your place
23:42:05 <b_jonas> I know it costs a lot to produce good ones and keep them up to date
23:42:11 <oerjan> i dunno i haven't used one in years
23:42:22 <b_jonas> I wish they made a better one
23:42:45 <oerjan> last i looked for a place, i just used google maps.
23:42:58 <b_jonas> although I do have to admit the Cartographia map (which is the most popular brand, and already was when Topográf was still in business) has improved, it's not as horrible as it used to be
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23:43:32 <b_jonas> I should get myself a new map
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23:48:06 <oerjan> <mroman> then suddenly the speaker says "let me point out that this is not anti-jew propaganda" and then I'm like "uhm... why is he saying that" <-- aka "I'm not a racist but ..." which reminds me of http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/zelda/?1460930400&d=-1
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23:48:48 <oerjan> wait since when does mroman idle
23:49:10 <shachaf> i,i "I don't qualify my sentences, but..."
23:50:43 <oerjan> (btw that comic is not actually zelda. they're running two comics alternatively in the same spot and have confused themselves again.)
23:50:59 <oerjan> not that this probably matters unless you're swedish
23:54:20 <oerjan> of course the two comics have a lot in common, being extremely liberal-themed and made by swedish women
23:54:35 <oerjan> (from an american viewpoint, anyway)
23:54:54 <oerjan> (in sweden this is probably just the default :P)
23:57:27 <oerjan> . o O ( Ah am monologuing? -- Count Dookû, Darths & Droids )
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23:59:25 <oerjan> i don't think the number of listeners matters for monologuing
00:00:08 <\oren\> "Space hotels close as inflatable pod joined to International Space Station"
00:00:36 <oerjan> . o O ( why would they close the space hotels because of that )
00:00:49 <\oren\> oerjan: that's exactly how I read it at first
00:01:19 <\oren\> it is apparently "space hotels are close to existing"
00:01:37 <oerjan> i realized that. otherwise i'd not have put it in . o O ( )
00:03:29 <oerjan> fungot: i think maybe you need a bouncer
00:03:29 <fungot> oerjan: tomorrow i'll add conversion when you try fnord) then 1 else n fact(n-1) n 2... why isn't it
00:04:51 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> and the UN denies Macedonia? what a world we live in... <-- only under that name iiuc
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00:11:53 <hppavilion[1]> I had an idea that would make the world a slightly better place
00:12:44 <hppavilion[1]> It deals with the problem of them having to spend an hour or more per meeting talking about emoji
00:13:03 <hppavilion[1]> step 1: Form a subcommittee made exclusively of people who might actually have a stake in this (i.e. teenagers)
00:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> step 2: Once ever unicode cycle (however long that is), give them exactly 1 nybblesworth of free slots to add emoji to
00:14:16 <oerjan> <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: And yeah, you can calculate the nth digit of pi without having to calculate all the preceeding digits <-- only in base 2^n last i heard?
00:15:09 <FreeFull> I thought there was a decimal spigot algorithm too
00:15:41 <hppavilion[1]> step 3: Stop forcing some of the world's smartest linguists and computer scientists (and also the world's "smartest" computational linguists, I guess) to give a fuck about stupid little pictures that people send around far too much
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00:19:02 <oerjan> "Borwein et al. (2004) have recently shown that pi has no Machin-type BBP arctangent formula that is not binary, although this does not rule out a completely different scheme for digit-extraction algorithms in other bases."
00:19:15 <oerjan> that's not quite so recent though
00:19:47 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: they've done 1
00:20:51 <oerjan> someone should just bite the bullet and create a smartphone with more emojis than will fit in unicode
00:21:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If we count non-preset pictures, that already exists via apps
00:22:29 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The best part is that we only allocate 1 new block byte for these new emoji (unless there's already >1 bytesworth of unused space in existing emoji blocks), so we stop adding new emoji after a few years and everybody stfus
00:23:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i don't think that will work
00:24:12 <oerjan> because if there are sufficiently strong interests, any limitation _will_ be lifted.
00:24:19 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I mean they stfu about new emoji so that the only recognition the UC gets is coming from people who actually appreciate what they're doing, and /don't/ just want new emoji
00:24:23 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: was it you who made that ugly unhinted thin line vector font with custom format? if so, can you remind me of its current status ?
00:24:49 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: It's abandoned, and I'm trying to make a better format
00:25:18 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: ok, if you have something you can show, tell us
00:25:59 <b_jonas> we were talking about #esoteric fonts
00:26:41 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: emoji subcommittee exists
00:29:54 <oerjan> "In 1996, Simon Plouffe derived an algorithm to extract the nth decimal digit of π (using base 10 math to extract a base 10 digit), and which can do so with an improved speed of O(n^3log(n)^3) time."
00:30:12 <oerjan> ok so there's something.
00:30:56 <coppro> http://unicode.org/emoji/
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00:34:28 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Do fandoms have a concept of "Low Orbit Ion Canon"? <-- . o O ( i hope "Canon" is not a misspelling )
00:34:48 <shachaf> oerjan: it's definitely canon hth
00:35:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It was 100% a pun. The sentence does not make sense if it isn't a pun.
00:35:49 <shachaf> when i played c&c generals they had the particle cannon
00:36:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i can find no hits that aren't misspellings, alas
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00:42:04 <HackEgo> \oren\'s font is http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
00:43:20 * oerjan is unsure whether that's intentional or not
00:43:52 * oerjan swats himself -----\#\#\#
00:44:45 <HackEgo> lifthrashiir's font is https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png
00:44:58 <oerjan> i'm going to go out on a limb and say that one isn't
00:45:20 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/thrash/thras/' wisdom/lif*font
00:45:36 <HackEgo> lifthrasiir's font is https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png
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01:01:23 <oerjan> b_jonas: i'm not sure i'm the one who needs an apology there >:P
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01:05:04 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm not sure you're the on... what am i saying, you always have something to apologize for.
01:05:41 <zzo38> Is there a better font compiler for X than the included software? (If not I could write one, if I have proper documentation of the format)
01:06:00 * oerjan hopes shachaf doesn't think i'm serious.
01:08:20 <oerjan> `learn gamemanj is undocumented.
01:08:25 <HackEgo> Learned 'gamemanj': gamemanj is undocumented.
01:09:01 * oerjan cackles moderately naughtily
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01:29:43 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/evil/evil cackling/' wisdom/oerjan
01:33:41 <HackEgo> Your infamous mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
01:33:52 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your infamous mysterious evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
01:38:40 <int-e> boinot sure what good it'll do but I can build wisdom.pdf again...
01:39:09 <int-e> boily: not sure what good it'll do but I can build wisdom.pdf again...
01:39:20 <int-e> failed tab completion, plus lag
01:40:40 <lifthrasiir> https://twitter.com/unicode/status/722133439726505984
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01:46:10 <oerjan> <int-e> failed tab completion, plus lag <-- just claim it was a portmanteau duh
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01:47:16 <int-e> oerjan: itay be too late for that
01:50:52 <oerjan> `learn Itay is Christmas in Italy.
01:50:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'itay': Itay is Christmas in Italy.
01:52:21 <oerjan> indeed that would be too late
01:54:09 <HackEgo> 378) <oklofok> drinks should come in long long pipes that drip liquid at varying speeds, and you shouldn't just casually taste to them, you should really try to understand what the artist (the canposer?) was trying to convey when making the drink <oklofok> olsner: well you know i'm a genius. anyway i like how food works tho, because it has both th
01:55:24 <oerjan> that is indeed a long long quote
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01:56:06 <HackEgo> kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity.
01:56:17 <HackEgo> 635) <kallisti> man, I love pseudo-random decision making <Gregor> kallisti: Man, I base most of my life on pseudo-random decision making. <oklopol> i usually just ask my dick and i then rarely even bother to listen \ 667) <monqy> kallisti: by ordered multiset did you mean: list??????
01:59:54 <HackEgo> 598) <shachaf> VMS Mosaic? <shachaf> I hope that's not Mosaic ported to VMS. <shachaf> Hmm. It's Mosaic ported to VMS.
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02:32:49 <HackEgo> 632) <kallisti> interestingly enough it takes about as much time for a person to produce cfunge as it does to create a baby. \ 635) <kallisti> man, I love pseudo-random decision making <Gregor> kallisti: Man, I base most of my life on pseudo-random decision making. <oklopol> i usually just ask my dick and i then rarely even bother to listen \ 667
02:34:06 <Kaynato> https://i.gyazo.com/920346fb9b2eda5ae63a4cd426a91c7e.png
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02:42:33 <prooftechnique> Though I guess it looks a bit more like a tulip, so perhaps not
02:50:46 <Kaynato> It takes in a file as Daoyu code, ignoring whitespace and treating invalid characters as spots to preserve data at, and generates Daoyu code which can construct that data
02:51:50 <Kaynato> It also has an option to convert plaintext directly to Daoyu hexadecimal, and another to output to a specified file
02:53:25 <Sgeo_> "Yes. PHP is well know for performing some of the most incredible and least likely fuck-ups, like fucking up the binding of the ternary operator (a ? b : c) or fucking up equality between values of the same type. But even it didn't, as far as I know, manage to fuck up the assignment expression (aside from the relatively common fuck-up of having one in the first place)"
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04:13:10 <FreeFull> Sgeo_: What did they do with the ternary operator?
04:14:24 <zzo38> I agree there is a lot of wrong thing with PHP although having assignment expression is not wrong in my opinion
04:14:41 <Sgeo_> FreeFull, http://phpsadness.com/sad/30
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09:22:40 <hppavilion[1]> Imagine a universe where the Visibility Problem was undecidable...
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11:14:55 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11h 10m 3s ago: <boily> and the UN denies Macedonia? what a world we live in... <-- only under that name iiuc
11:32:24 <boily> fungot: o hai. nostril?
11:32:24 <fungot> boily: what a shame, otherwise i won't have one, but i'm aware i left out ( except for things like addition ( that's ( 1000))
11:32:40 <boily> fungot: you left out a thousand nostrils?
11:32:41 <fungot> boily: should have guessed :) good night, offby1" must resist associations.
11:33:06 <boily> @tell fizzie your bot, it is disturbing hth
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12:09:54 <gamemanj> boily: There was an expected (but time unpredictable) interruption in service caused by those who believe that a router can spontaniously combust if not watched.
12:11:02 <gamemanj> Review of logs suggests that you are attempting to "suggest" PRing a repository.
12:11:55 <gamemanj> I will have you know that, to the best I can recall, only one of my pull requests has ever succeeded. It would be extremely wise for you not to ask for my help.
12:12:21 <gamemanj> On the other hand, that may be the point - some form of intentional sabotage.
12:12:42 <gamemanj> The current communications process will now end, as I have a schedule to keep track of.
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12:13:35 <boily> @tell gamemanj PRs were mentioned. I was thinking of giving you full pull-push-whatever permissions to the repo :D
12:15:17 <boily> @tell gamemanj also, please be assured that *everything* can spontaneously combust if sufficiently unwatched hth
12:16:01 <boily> @tell gamemanj (especially eggs. prismatic explosive omelette. don't ask.)
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17:58:14 <HackEgo> urbandictionary/Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
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18:05:23 <greenlock> So I was learning myself many Haskells, but haven't quite finished yet.
18:06:17 <greenlock> I don't really understand how one would go about creating an application in the traditional sense with it.
18:11:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
18:11:53 <HackEgo> :-( \ (* \ 99 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ echo-p \ emoticons \ equations \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ grph \ hw \ ibin \ ifconfig_out \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ply-3.8.tar.gz \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ secret.txt \ share \ src \ t
18:12:53 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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19:15:37 <HackEgo> * oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits
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19:52:06 <earendel> pardon. this isN't meant to be pasted here
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20:28:03 <zzo38> I am not Spanish and most people on here probably do not know the Spanish. This is not the Spanish IRC. This is the English IRC.
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20:32:50 <zzo38> Most people whose username includes "canaima" does.
20:34:14 <zzo38> I tried to write a program to make error diffusion but seem to be working improperly do you know what is wrong please?
20:35:27 <zzo38> This is not the Spanish IRC; this is mainly the English IRC.
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20:46:50 <hppavilion[1]> I have, for some reason, decided to make a set of icons
20:48:15 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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20:49:28 <HackEgo> hth: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
20:50:11 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: you're `welcome
20:50:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: worship: not found
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21:05:45 <hppavilion[1]> Marcela_Gandara: Este es un IRC para los programadores. Usted está buscando un canal diferente, a menos que le sucede a ser un programador con un interés en el surrealismo
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21:09:06 <gamemanj> ...I see the amount of cities is expanding?
21:10:10 <gamemanj> "also, please be assured that *everything* can spontaneously combust if sufficiently unwatched hth"
21:10:39 <gamemanj> Someone should give boily a pet rock
21:11:01 <gamemanj> Let's see if that spontaneously combusts.
21:11:28 <gamemanj> No, wait, I already know that someone will find a flaw in that, even though magic isn't real.
21:11:44 <gamemanj> Someone give boily a non-pet rock.
21:11:54 <gamemanj> Explicitly stated not to be a pet.
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21:12:38 <gamemanj> *won't combust if sufficently unwatched.
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21:13:02 <gamemanj> There is no status of "sufficiently unwatched" in which it, itself, will spontaneously combust.
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21:14:30 <gamemanj> Now, in theory, you could enclose it in a box and call it "Schrodinger's Rock" and then say that until you open the box, the rock is combusted and not combusted. A sensible person would point out the big amount of noise that would make. A sensible debater would then point out that being able to hear the noise counts as "sufficiently unwatched".
21:14:37 <gamemanj> Flip. I just disproved my own point.
21:15:44 <gamemanj> However, it does have a productive use, in that spontaneous combustion generally makes a noise, which means that the required state of "sufficiently unwatched" can never be achieved.
21:17:02 <zzo38> What will happen with outer space?
21:17:37 <prooftechnique> Counterpoint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_Combustion_%28band%29
21:18:35 <gamemanj> On the next episode of "gamemanj is insane": gamemanj runs a program, and then manually types out it's output because transforming the source into a workable format is downright impossible, and also not fun. This has been your host, gamemanj, and goodnight! *disappears in a puff of smoke*
21:19:52 <gamemanj> (For the episode after: CWEB and you : sanity in a post-TeX programming world)
21:22:06 * zgrep wonders what that is
21:23:09 <gamemanj> (Actually, come to think of it, maybe TeX should be on esolangs. *a minute later* Actually, I just did a check. zzo38 implemented underload in TeX, but the link doesn't work? Switching to Gopher protocol...)
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21:24:06 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: We created it around the same time as tomfoolery IIRC
21:24:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: BookOfEso: not found
21:24:23 <HackEgo> 1:2/And #esoteric was without denizens, and empty; and the order was on the face of the PDP-8. And the software of fungot moved upon the face of the scrollback.
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21:24:41 <fungot> gamemanj: i think it has tail-call elimination. it says sth about some server got hacked bla bla xx
21:24:48 <zgrep> `url bin/bookofeso
21:24:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/bookofeso
21:24:59 <gamemanj> Wait a sec. Why didn't fungot respond to HackEgo?
21:24:59 <fungot> gamemanj: they usually go hand in hand.
21:25:29 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: But what if it doesn't fit in an irc line.
21:25:48 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: It's really just `wisdom for a different directory
21:25:51 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Well, I had a lack of foresight into this knowledge.
21:26:02 <zzo38> The reason the link doesn't work may be the DNS is not yet updated.
21:26:10 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: that's unfortunate, I really wanted to train fungot to say `` ./continue_loop
21:26:10 <fungot> gamemanj: not slow for me i guess.... or even worse, to be sure that i
21:26:49 <HackEgo> botlops are the core of botsentiences. Sapience is scheduled for the next release.
21:26:51 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: It used to be (on IRC in general, not just here) that if you had multiple bots on one channel (which is trashy in some peoples' eyes, but #esoteric actually doesn't work without it), you could make them trigger each other
21:27:11 <zzo38> Try replacing the domain name with 24.207.48.196 for now
21:27:14 <gamemanj> I consider both sapience, sentience and botloops good things.
21:27:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?sapient: not found
21:27:41 <hppavilion[1]> Unless sapience for bots is based on software analysis
21:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, a software that can hash software and compare it with itself
21:28:08 <gamemanj> zzo38: Your domain is not responding to: echo "\r" | nc zzo38computer.org 70
21:28:19 <hppavilion[1]> (a "sapient quine" (though these quines are allowed I/O to make it possible))
21:28:59 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, would a sapient quine technically be sapient?
21:29:03 <gamemanj> `learn sentience is the primary goal of wisdom. wisdom is the primary goal of sentience.
21:29:09 <HackEgo> Learned 'sentience': sentience is the primary goal of wisdom. wisdom is the primary goal of sentience.
21:29:35 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: I'm systematically going through the lines of the SAB and making them #esoterican
21:30:05 <gamemanj> And, somehow, I missed the IP address from zzo38 above. zgrep, zzo38...
21:30:09 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. It's a translation of the bible that has annotations pointing out contradictions and other bull
21:30:36 <gamemanj> zzo38: Ok, so the IP address... asks me to use the Gopher service.
21:31:02 <zzo38> gamemanj: The root page does. If you access a different file then it won't.
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21:31:16 <gamemanj> zzo38: Oh, and it says "This is still in the process of being recovered."
21:31:19 * zgrep wonders what IP address this is
21:31:29 <gamemanj> The one zzo pointed out above.
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21:32:00 <zzo38> gamemanj: Yes it is, although the HTTP link to the Underload implementation in TeX will still work if you replace the domain name with the IP address.
21:32:02 <gamemanj> ok, so accessing the underload-in-tex file didn't work via Gopher.
21:32:12 <zgrep> Ah, zzo38's website?
21:32:41 <zzo38> Gopher works too, it is just that the gopher server is still in the process of being recovered (as it says), so it is not yet complete.
21:32:56 * zgrep 'd use gopher, but zgrep is too lazy
21:33:22 <gamemanj> zgrep: "nc 24.207.48.196 70", press enter, press ctrl-v, press enter, press enter again.
21:34:20 <gamemanj> (It's a little lacking in the visual department, though. If a monospaced font was mandated, then at least there would be a workaround...
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21:35:01 <zzo38> It is recommended to always use a monospace font for Gopher for maximum compatibility.
21:35:38 <zzo38> (It is also recommended to use a monospace font when accessing .txt files from any protocol; this isn't limited to Gopher)
21:36:32 * gamemanj reads more on Gopher, and finds "Gopher+"
21:38:09 <gamemanj> I'm a bit confused that the link has to contain the document type.
21:38:53 <gamemanj> Could cause some confusion if something changes content type. Like if "/nethack" stopped being a type '1' and started being a type '8', both of which make sense for the link.
21:39:19 <zzo38> Gopher+ is sometimes used but not all clients and/or servers implement it. Today it is often not used
21:39:32 <gamemanj> hang on... wait a sec, that doesn't even make sense. links need selectors, but what kind of selector would type '8' use if it's just a pointer to a telnet session...
21:39:34 <zzo38> gamemanj: Yes, although the port number would likely be different too in such a case
21:40:48 <zzo38> There is no selector of course, although possibly some might make it the initial data to send to the server
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21:41:11 <zzo38> (I don't know if any servers or clients use this, but probably it would not be used)
21:41:23 <gamemanj> Huh. So, changing my example, what if someone made a resource of type "plain text" '0', it got linked to, and it was changed to a type 'h' (HTML)?
21:41:58 <zzo38> gamemanj: The link can be updated, although you can load it as type 0 anyways if you want to view the source
21:42:29 <gamemanj> Yes, assuming the person running the server with the link updates their links :)
21:42:41 <zzo38> Anyways a gopher client might not necessarily support HTML; types 0 and 1 and 7 should always be implemented at least though.
21:43:07 <gamemanj> Would be nice to have type 'i' :)
21:43:36 <zzo38> I however find it unlikely that they will replace it with HTML. Gopher resources are generally supposed to be plain text anyways.
21:43:47 <zzo38> Type 'i' is used for a menu item that does not link to anything.
21:44:31 <zzo38> (If a domain name and/or port number and/or selector are specified, they should be ignored.)
21:44:43 <zzo38> O, yes, I forgot. The types supported should be at least: 0 1 7 i
21:45:58 <zzo38> I do not recommend supporting HTML in a gopher client unless it is also a web browser in which case it probably should support HTML.
21:46:15 <gamemanj> Why would a web browser need to support HTML?
21:46:26 <zzo38> Because it is used for webpages
21:47:28 <gamemanj> (Just joking. Yes, a web-browser should probably support HTML.)
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21:50:28 <zzo38> The convention to link to a protocol that is not Gopher, CSO/PH, or Telnet, is to use a link of type 'h' to a selector starting with "URL:" followed by the URL, and that if the server receives a request for such a selector, to return a HTML document that links and redirects to that URL.
21:53:09 <gamemanj> ah, the days when "Hosts that have a CR-LF TAB or NUL in their name get what they deserve." was an acceptable thing to write in documentation
21:53:28 <zzo38> (The client will not necessarily access that HTML document; it may understand the convention and just access the URL directly. If it does, there probably ought to be a feature in the clientto disable that feature if you do not want it.)
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22:08:16 <mtve> game of life - found D8-symmetric garden-of-eden, 11x11, 93 orphan size, 65 on-cells. worse then current record.
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22:11:35 <mtve> gamemanj: http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Garden_of_Eden
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22:17:03 <gamemanj> Good news, zzo38. I rigged up a simple Gopher client in Lua. Bad news, the textfiles link is by DNS.
22:20:18 <gamemanj> I've decided I will no longer be looking at files on zzo38's server due to the contents of a certain downright scary folder.
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22:22:41 <zzo38> When the DNS is fixed then it can be accessed.
22:23:29 <gamemanj> Oh, I can access it, just I have to use netcat. But I was silly enough to... list the contents of a folder whose first letter was 'a' and looked really scary when the contents were listed.
22:23:48 <Kaynato> coppro: I have been doing some consideration regarding BCT in Daoyu, but there is a major problem of implementation, being the "1" command in BCT,
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22:25:28 <Kaynato> Since I do not think I have a way to trivially "keep track" of the position of the last open "bit" to copy to. As well, there was a problem with "keeping track of when to allocate more memory" but I think this can be doable
22:25:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i might have to install pulseaudio to get ksp to work
22:26:38 * gamemanj mumbles something about why can't they use portaudio like sensible people
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23:51:39 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> @tell gamemanj also, please be assured that *everything* can spontaneously combust if sufficiently unwatched hth <-- sounds like a theory for how the big bang happened
23:58:38 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/bdsmreclist
23:58:46 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 87 Dec 9 04:13 wisdom/bdsmreclist
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23:58:59 <HackEgo> <oerjan> YOU are out of order.
23:59:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `bdsmreclist: not found
23:59:40 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Phantom_Hoover oerjan Phantom_Hoover Phantom_Hoover Phantom_Hoover
23:59:51 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/bdsmreclist
23:59:57 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan elliott oerjan
00:00:12 <HackEgo> * oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits
00:00:42 <oerjan> i am approximately as confused as anyone else, although it's traditional
00:01:03 <HackEgo> :-( \ (* \ 99 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ echo-p \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ grph \ hw \ ibin \ ifconfig_out \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ply-3.8.tar.gz \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ secret.txt \ shar
00:01:24 <HackEgo> <!doctype html><html itemscope="" itemtype="http://schema.org/WebPage" lang="en-CA"><head><meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"><meta content="/images/branding/googleg/1x/googleg_standard_color_128dp.png" itemprop="image"><title>Google</title><script>(function(){window.google={kEI:'WX_bVuizFqqOjwSmo5r4DA',kEXPI:'3700
00:01:58 <HackEgo> lo Link encap:Local Loopback \ inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 \ inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host \ UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:65536 Metric:1 \ RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 \ TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 \ collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 \
00:02:36 <HackEgo> echo "$1"; mkdir -p "$(dirname "$1")" 2>/dev/null
00:03:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/echo-p
00:03:12 <oerjan> has culprits become extremely slow recently
00:03:34 <shachaf> oerjan: Didn't all of HackEgo become extremely slow recently?
00:03:48 <oerjan> shachaf: well compared to the other commands
00:03:58 <oerjan> apparently it was my mistake there
00:04:45 <HackEgo> :-( \ (* \ 99 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ grph \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ply-3.8.tar.gz \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ secret.txt \ share \ src \ testpylib \ things_with_hg_
00:05:13 <HackEgo> total 4 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Dec 9 04:12 luarocks
00:05:36 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 10146 Jan 23 21:00 grph
00:05:41 <HackEgo> âELF............>..... @.....@.......h..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....À.......À............................@......@............................................@.......@.....Ü......Ü........ ............à......à`.....à`.....H......`........ ...........ø......ø`.....ø`.....à.......à................
00:06:13 <shachaf> my terminal is fatally injured tdnh
00:06:33 <oerjan> your terminal needed to be put down anyway
00:07:14 <HackEgo> testpylib: Python script, ASCII text executable
00:07:37 <HackEgo> Gcõ$EãÑl÷B \ <ör½Â'¹!®Ñ3ú %vÚCæh-nÃÖòòCR^¢ÍgÂkWûþhº6üÈ:»ßûP¿IòCûL¦DptØ6ó;:®e¹½Kr#"c;81ýJí¨#P{ñõ}^ãðÔͯŽp.KËó÷ìTe8ózë¿-Ði^ø¤·âfm$_æ@9ÿm_0;sl£º{ç]ø÷¾b]ue5þò;_ºÅ²HÈQ³ýÑ´HÆþÃP;Ƽ¬ß \ Î÷ã©6±(o¬U9¨
:¢¯gÞ#íÁ·mÎÀgð5íX.rØ@dIq½Z<ò.ÆÜsºYzÀLúXÜÛEõYÛÐ%DµCèóe.UÀ8nÜWxAÍm`NtN¿5s³Ô¿d¿3i
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00:07:53 <oerjan> rule #5: binaries at HackEgo toplevel _will_ be eviscerated.
00:08:02 <shachaf> is dumping all this junk into the channel strictly necessary
00:08:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: because if they're useful, they should be moved to bin/
00:08:50 <oerjan> they're not even in path there
00:09:20 <oerjan> well executables, i guess i mean
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00:10:12 <shachaf> `bienvenido Marcela_Gandara
00:10:15 <HackEgo> Marcela_Gandara: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
00:10:28 <oerjan> also, i suspect we might be approaching the point where even directories at toplevel need some pruning * looks at hppavilion[1]
00:11:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm sure you created at least some of them. evil for example
00:12:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: morallyneutral: not found
00:12:17 <shachaf> `mkx !\.´//echo 'emergency signal toggled'
00:12:37 <shachaf> it has to be top-level, sorry
00:14:58 * oerjan will prune more some other time
00:15:43 <HackEgo> Your infamous mysterious evil cackling overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker.
00:16:02 <gamemanj> ...nooo, no someone who dislikes Roald Dahl! That's impossible!
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00:16:22 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/evil/evil oppressive/' wisdom/oerjan
00:17:03 <olsner> hmm, my work desk points antizimbabwards
00:17:35 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines.
00:17:52 <HackEgo> olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
00:18:07 <olsner> (that's the desk at home)
00:18:27 <oerjan> gamemanj: don't worry it's all shachaf's lies. although iiuc roald dahl _was_ a bit of a jerk...
00:19:03 <gamemanj> Everything can be interpreted from multiple points of view.
00:19:12 <gamemanj> Imply from that statement what you will.
00:19:21 <shachaf> In 2008, The Times placed Dahl 16th on its list of "The 50 greatest British writers since 1945".[5]
00:19:26 <gamemanj> Anyway, back to searching Veronica-II for "zzo38"...
00:20:21 <shachaf> oerjan: also i learned to read from charlie and the chocolate so how bad could he be
00:20:21 <oerjan> this is no contradiction to his also being a jerk, of course.
00:20:33 <shachaf> this book: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/5/56/%D7%A6%27%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%9C%D7%99_%D7%95%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%93%D7%94.jpg
00:20:57 <oerjan> i have heard about charlie and the chocolate factory.
00:21:41 <oerjan> shachaf: is that hebrew with all the vowel marks?
00:23:12 <oerjan> <gamemanj> Imply from that statement what you will. <-- clearly you are an evil liberal hth
00:23:45 <gamemanj> Mwuhahaha! No, I am not an evil liberal... I am the mad scientist, Insert Name Here!
00:24:15 <shachaf> oh, perhaps it was actually this book: http://simania.co.il/bookimages/covers1/18347.jpg
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00:24:50 <oerjan> hint: that's not the full filename
00:25:02 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*gamemanj*: No such file or directory
00:26:25 <oerjan> it's ok i was updating it anyway
00:27:33 <oerjan> `learn gamemanj is also the mad scientist I. N. Here.
00:27:37 <HackEgo> Relearned 'gamemanj': gamemanj is also the mad scientist I. N. Here.
00:27:45 <gamemanj> I'm tempted to `` echo 'echo $1 >> BLAH ; echo "Your message has been stored." >> unwitting_victim' >> post_msg ; ln -s wisdom/*oerjan* unwitting_victim
00:28:07 <gamemanj> ...wait, I forgot to replace the "BLAH" with wisdom/*oerjan*
00:28:18 <gamemanj> serves me right for leaving placeholders during testing
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00:28:45 <oerjan> we don't use >> that way any more. we have `learn_append for proper formatting.
00:29:01 <gamemanj> I also seem to have gotten confused
00:29:05 <oerjan> (i guess that uses >> internally)
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00:29:33 <oerjan> i'm not sure you can >> to more than one file
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00:29:58 <gamemanj> oerjan: I got confused. Instead of replacing the BLAH I appended the >>...
00:30:17 * gamemanj wonders how on earth he could get that confused over a line of shell script.
00:31:04 <gamemanj> Anyway, the CORRECTED line: `` echo 'echo $1 >> unwitting_victim ; echo "Your message has been stored."' >> post_msg ; ln -s wisdom/*oerjan* unwitting_victim
00:31:24 <gamemanj> then all I have to do is advocate use of post_msg as a rantbox
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00:31:46 <gamemanj> MWUAHAHAHAH... except ofc I just told you my whole plan, so it won't work.
00:31:48 <oerjan> that's also not proper. and we have `mkx for creating executables more conveniently hth
00:32:13 <oerjan> it's not like it works anyway, HackEgo has undo features.
00:33:07 <oerjan> besides, we have `complain already
00:33:24 <oerjan> `complain Newbies get confused by everything HackEgo.
00:33:29 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
00:34:01 <oerjan> `complain Also, Gregor is never here to fix his bots.
00:34:06 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
00:34:25 <gamemanj> Ok, new plan. Since presumably it's cheating to change my own wisdom file, I need to find a way to manipulate someone into doing it for me.
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00:40:19 <oerjan> <gamemanj> ...I see the amount of cities is expanding? <-- oh right...
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00:40:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from New York (not New Amsterdam).
00:40:54 <\oren\> I now have a Elektronika Mk-61 calculator
00:41:01 <oerjan> forgot to change it yesterday
00:42:57 <oerjan> <gamemanj> The point being that it won <-- the rock of victory
00:43:32 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektronika_MK-61
00:43:50 <\oren\> it's programmable and RPN
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00:45:21 <\oren\> and comes with a sheet showing its circuit layout (which I have never seen any other electronic device do). Hence, it's technically opensource
00:47:10 <gamemanj> coming with source != opensource
00:47:32 <\oren\> i thought that was the difference between free and open source
00:48:29 <gamemanj> Ok, I have no idea anymore. The kaledoscope of licenses are an insanity beyond insanities, a legitimate reason for the world to end via everybody being turned into orange goo, or for a time machine arms race to take everything out.
00:49:25 <\oren\> I see. Well I don't know if there is a copyright on this, given it was made in the Soviet Union
00:49:39 <\oren\> did the Soviet Union have copyright laws?
00:50:26 <zzo38> If the source codes are available then it is called "shared source", and "open source" is a subset of that.
00:50:57 <gamemanj> note: there is a sinister difference between the two...
00:52:03 <gamemanj> specifically, when a company is going around acting like it's so good for introducing "shared source", when having it is a great way to do things like have a reason to sue them if they develop competing products. I don't think anyone's actually done that, but feel free to correct me.
00:52:27 <\oren\> yay, i successfully programmed the Tsiolkovsky Rocket Equation into this!
00:53:39 <\oren\> I_sp * 9.8 * ln (M_0 / M_f) = Δ_v
00:53:44 <\oren\> I_sp * 9.8 * ln (M_0 / M_f) = Δv
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00:54:41 <gamemanj> "As you can see, \oren\ has taken the 'SCIENCE!' solution to Kerbal Space Program mission planning."
00:55:52 <\oren\> I was previously using a stupid scientific calculator, but this is so much more uh...
00:56:47 <\oren\> now I'll launch missiles to blow up the Badlands
00:57:13 * gamemanj gives \oren\ a fizzy drink, of a very specific brand. Specifically for mad scientists...
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01:00:57 <oerjan> \oren\> I see. Well I don't know if there is a copyright on this, given it was made in the Soviet Union <-- tetris was too, and is copyrighted.
01:01:45 * gamemanj realizes he should probably go to bed, it's 1:01 AM
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01:39:31 <boily> bonsœirjan, bonshachafoir.
01:39:44 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 48m 4s ago: <boily> @tell gamemanj also, please be assured that *everything* can spontaneously combust if sufficiently unwatched hth <-- sounds like a theory for how the big bang happened
01:39:56 <boily> oerjan: thausible.
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01:44:06 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose the universe was in the ultimate state of unobservation before the Big Bang, given that quantum physics hadn't started yet
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01:50:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: not necessarily. it could also apply if there was a previous universe that had expanded to extreme emptiness and heat death
01:51:10 <oerjan> this is at least similar to an actual proposed theory, i think
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01:54:14 <shachaf> why, what's happening tomorrow?
01:55:42 <shachaf> now change your nick to something without the brackets
01:55:58 <shachaf> you gotta do it for the pun
01:56:37 <boily> oerjan: can I mapole shachaf?
01:57:00 <shachaf> so now take the brackets off your nick
01:58:58 <oerjan> boily: i was ...ing hppavilion[1] not shachaf
01:59:17 <boily> yes, but I'm used to mapoling shachaf by default :D
02:00:31 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: What's the stupidest thing that a calculator could do?
02:00:31 <boily> no puns seen here.
02:00:47 <hppavilion[1]> Alternatively, is there some system that one could make a calculator based on /other/ than basic arithmetic?
02:01:23 <boily> hppavilion[1]: underload has unbasic arithmetic hth
02:01:26 <oerjan> that would be pretty awkward
02:03:12 <oerjan> boily: btw i am amazed that you actually found a pho thread to comment in
02:03:21 <oerjan> montreal must be a very culinary place
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02:04:04 <boily> oerjan: huh? which one?
02:04:19 <boily> whenever there's a phodiscussion, I can't resist pushing my agenda.
02:04:28 <boily> not the first thread I phoed in.
02:04:32 <oerjan> wait, are you saying it's _frequent_
02:04:42 <boily> it happens a few times per year, yes.
02:05:13 <oerjan> `learn Montreal is a city in Canada that somehow is obsessed with Vietnamese cuisine.
02:05:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'montreal': Montreal is a city in Canada that somehow is obsessed with Vietnamese cuisine.
02:05:31 <boily> hppavilion[1]: it is closer to Peano arithmetic. it is still arithmetic.
02:06:22 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: Oh, I thought you were making the pun.
02:06:43 <shachaf> If you changed your nick you would see it.
02:07:44 <shachaf> oerjan: why do you participate in that
02:08:01 <oerjan> i don't, i have boily in the friends list
02:08:41 <shachaf> oerjan: did you know Montreal and Hanoi are sister cities
02:08:57 <shachaf> perhaps it's obsessed with its Vietnamese cousin hth
02:09:19 <shachaf> anyway hppavilion[1] is sticking with the same nick
02:10:16 <shachaf> i'd expect hppavilion[1] to be excited
02:10:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: amazingly the tower is named for a real city hth
02:11:38 <shachaf> what happened to the long mapole of the law?
02:12:02 <oerjan> boily: do you also think shachaf's puns are a bit thin today
02:12:23 <shachaf> look i was busy acknowledging hppavilion[1]'s pun
02:12:32 <shachaf> when it turned out not to exist
02:12:53 <oerjan> shachaf: i guess it was expunged hth
02:13:37 <boily> oerjan: I can't think, I'm in a café.
02:13:55 <oerjan> boily: i recognize the problem
02:15:57 * hppavilion[1] posits how weird it is that on IRC, everyone is just a single word on a screen
02:17:01 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is there something higher than λ-calculus?
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02:18:46 <oerjan> (probably. something categorical maybe?)
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02:36:51 <hppavilion[1]> p => q has an identical truth table to p -> q when p, q = {0, 1}
02:39:15 <boily> time to quit the unthinkcafé and go home to unthinksleep...
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03:00:59 <hppavilion[1]> The best logical operation is 0001, not because it's &, but because a truth table ordered by binary forms a CNWY glider
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03:17:29 <hppavilion[1]> OH WAIT. MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE THERE ARE ONLY 16 POSSIBLE LOGICAL OPERATIONS, MORON.
03:18:30 <pikhq> I advise you use the reals between 0 and 1 inclusive for your logic operations, instead.
03:18:44 <pikhq> This gives you uncountably many, and is thus superior to traditional binary logic.
03:18:58 <oerjan> well he _was_ mentioning fuzzy before.
03:20:03 <oerjan> not x = x `nor` x. x `or` y = not (x `nor` y). x -> y = not x `or` y. hth.
03:20:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you might want to look up karnaugh diagrams
03:21:13 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: But for it to work for the [0:1] reals, it first must first work for the booleans
03:21:53 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: And I'm pretty sure p => (q -> r) is supposed to be equivalent to (p => q) -> (p => r), for some reason
03:22:14 <hppavilion[1]> Though it may be (p -> q) => r that satisfies something like that, NTITAI
03:33:17 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Is there any binary connective that distributes over ->?
03:40:21 <oerjan> @check \p q r -> ((p::Bool)<= ((q::Bool)<=(r::Bool))) == ((p<=q)<=(p<=r))
03:41:27 * oerjan isn't sure what hppavilion[1] means by => and -> that makes them different
03:43:23 <shachaf> oerjan: see <oerjan> no hth
03:48:07 <oerjan> oh something tetrationlike
03:48:21 * oerjan still no idea what => really is, then
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04:20:26 <zzo38> Is it possible to make it in vim so that you can make [ to remember a numeric prefix if there is one and to begin recording a macro, and then ] ends that recording and if there is a remembered numeric prefix to execute it one less than that many times and then the macro is also saved so that you can execute it later
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04:26:17 <zzo38> Also is there a command in vim to move the cursor to the end of the previous Visual area?
04:37:55 <zzo38> How to enable virtual editing in vreplace mode?
04:39:59 <zzo38> I figured out how to jump the visual selected area by `< and `> commands
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04:56:47 <picobit> transport-triggered architectures are really interesting.
04:59:37 <zzo38> I have once designed one (including the schematics) before I knew what it was called.
05:00:55 <picobit> it's an interesting piece of machinery but I have to wonder if it's actually viable in real-world scenarios.
05:01:20 <picobit> that's a lot of cycles spent on moving things around.
05:01:36 <zzo38> I wouldn't know. Possibly a microcode might use such design?
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05:05:07 <zzo38> I don't really know. It is just what I thought of when I tried to design a CPU including schematics
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05:18:28 <\oren\> Wait, is this Error or ЕГГОГ (EGGOG)
05:20:27 <\oren\> I divided by zero on my russian calculator and got a value that looks like
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05:22:41 <zzo38> I don't know. Do you know any Russian words?
05:22:57 <\oren\> that's what I think, but i think it's funnier to read it as eggog
05:23:44 <\oren\> hmm, funny or accurate...
05:24:42 <\oren\> actually with the shapes of these 7seg displays it looks more like
05:25:30 <\oren\> because the left lower vertical segment is very short
05:39:35 <\oren\> discovery: 10^100=EʳʳOʳ. squared is 3ʳʳOʳ or ZGGOG!
05:43:55 <\oren\> this has... implications
05:47:31 <\oren\> logarithm base 10 of ZGGOG is 799
05:48:24 <\oren\> natural logarithm of ZGGOG is 1842
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06:04:39 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan Oh, you figured that out. Well I'm still trying to deduce its exact behavior
06:06:20 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
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06:21:14 <int-e> @djinn Bool -> a -> a -> a
06:21:44 <int-e> I suspect that's the showcase for djinn's aversion against constant functions
06:25:30 <hppavilion[1]> It's probably already defined though! But I couldn't find it
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06:26:40 <hppavilion[1]> It takes a truth table (just the last column, in 00/01/10/11 notation) and returns a binary boolean function that implements that operation
06:26:52 <lambdabot> You have QuickCheck and 3 seconds. Prove something.
06:28:05 <lambdabot> [<Bool -> Bool -> Bool>,<Bool -> Bool -> Bool>,<Bool -> Bool -> Bool>,<Bool ...
06:29:16 <hppavilion[1]> @run map apply (zip (map binBoolOp [1..15]) repeat (True, False))
06:31:40 <hppavilion[1]> @run map (\x -> (fst x) (fst (snd x) (snd (snd x)))) (zip (map binBoolOp [1..15]) repeat (True, False))
06:31:41 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘(Bool, Bool)
06:31:41 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[(Bool -> Bool -> Bool, b1)]’
06:32:07 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: tell thank you thanks thesaurus thx tic-tac-toe ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete type v @ ? .
06:32:28 <hppavilion[1]> @run map (\x -> (fst x) (fst (snd x)) (snd (snd x)))) (zip (map binBoolOp [1..15]) repeat (True, False))
06:32:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:48: parse error on input ‘)’
06:32:35 <hppavilion[1]> @run map (\x -> (fst x) (fst (snd x)) (snd (snd x))) (zip (map binBoolOp [1..15]) repeat (True, False))
06:32:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘(Bool, Bool)
06:32:36 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[(Bool -> Bool -> Bool, b1)]’
06:32:55 <zzo38> I like the <() feature of the shell and find it to be useful with the farbfeld utilities I am writing.
06:35:34 <zzo38> Since some of them require multiple inputs.
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07:02:09 <mtve> \oren\: mk-61/b3-34 cpu rom (ik13 series) was not published anywhere, until recently at 2011 chips were photoscanned and rev-engineered, it was a major breakthru, see https://github.com/BigEd/emu145/blob/master/pmkemu/mcommands.h
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07:29:36 <myname> hppavilion[1]: do you even haskell?
07:31:05 <hppavilion[1]> There exists a natural number s such that for every natural number n, s = n2.
07:31:20 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But I always forget that I'm learning to haskell
07:31:29 <myname> the wikibook is awesome
07:31:38 <b_jonas> mk-61/b3-34 cpu? what's that?
07:32:27 <myname> currently, i am doing weird stuff with languages in haskell
07:32:29 <hppavilion[1]> (I prefer to build all my programs from the command line rather than in the IDE for some reason)
07:33:01 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yes, I would too if I wasn't stuck on a shitty win10 device
07:33:16 <b_jonas> ah, this one => http://www.rskey.org/CMS/index.php/7?manufacturer=Elektronika&model=MK-61
07:33:23 <hppavilion[1]> I tried installing Ubuntu, but it wouldn't boot from USB
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07:39:36 <myname> hppavilion[1]: do you have a shitty old mainboard that boots usb as big floppy instead of a small hdd?
07:39:56 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It's a relatively new laptop; purchased last summer
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07:44:43 <zzo38> If it won't boot from USB then see if it can be configured to boot from a DVD and see if you have a DVD to install Ubuntu.
07:45:16 <myname> i wouldn't buy a laptop with a dvd drive
07:45:34 <myname> at worst, i would use wuby
07:45:56 <myname> if this is still a thing, that is
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09:16:16 <zzo38> Is there the possibility to send a file with git without having to clone the entire repository that you want to send to, and only the file that you want to modify instead?
09:30:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: there are some experimental development for partial checkouts with git, but nothing working well yet I think
09:31:07 <b_jonas> but you'd have to ask ais to be sure, I don't understand much about git
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12:00:11 <fungot> boily: but i don't know, what do you mean? yes. reasoning? definately not because if it's documentation
12:00:29 <boily> fungot: a blep is a cat with their tongue out hth
12:00:29 <fungot> boily: reloaded the python plugin. it is actually
12:00:35 <boily> fungot: not a python, a cat.
12:00:36 <fungot> boily: that was spawned by my thinking about how to do it?
12:00:54 <boily> fungot: if you spawn pythons for more than four hours, consult your physician.
12:02:03 <int-e> fungot: holding on fast
12:02:03 <fungot> int-e: so it depends a lot on impl, but i know it
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12:10:17 <boily> apparently, nød is a real Norwegian word meaning "distress" tmyk hth
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12:48:58 <b_jonas> b_jonas: hmm, we could add that entry too
12:49:13 <b_jonas> `learn nœud is Norwegian for emergency
12:49:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'nœud': nœud is Norwegian for emergency
12:50:10 <fizzie> That sounds plausible, since it's "nöd" in Swedish. (nödnummer is the emergency phone number, at least.)
12:52:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: and "not" in German
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12:53:48 <b_jonas> (actually it's "Not" in German)
12:53:57 <fizzie> "Nötkötti" is a Finnish word for a spam-like product containing pork and beef, even though the name implies it's just the latter, because of historical reasons.
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13:22:29 <mroman_> why did C11 not address overflow issues and string issues?
13:30:56 <Phantom_Hoover> cstrings are always going to be inherently prone to those problems
13:34:58 <mroman_> there's still no official nice way to detect overflows?
13:35:30 <mroman_> like uhm _overflow_add(a,b)
13:37:09 <HackEgo> amortized/An amortized word is a word that oerjan can never remember.
13:37:11 <b_jonas> mroman_: there's no nice way
13:37:27 <HackEgo> progres/Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
13:37:50 <HackEgo> precious/precious? That doesn't ring a bell. ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:38:01 <HackEgo> progres/Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
13:38:08 <HackEgo> /cat: : No such file or directory
13:38:21 <mroman_> most CPUs provide flags for that.
13:38:48 <b_jonas> mroman_: it's not so simple. most _future_ cpus should not provide flags for that, because they can't do so cheaply
13:39:16 <b_jonas> mroman_: computing carry itself is easy for a cpu, but storing that status somewhere as an additional output isn't
13:39:26 <\oren\> 0x80000000|| (0x80000000&((unsigned)a + (unsigned)b)) == (0x80000000&(unsigned)a)
13:39:48 <\oren\> er.. hold on let me finish typing thay
13:39:52 <b_jonas> mroman_: but yes, there should be some nice way to ask the C compiler to detect overflows,
13:40:09 <b_jonas> mroman_: and there currently isn't an official nice way, though there is a gcc extension.
13:40:28 <b_jonas> mroman_: I hope that eventually there will be a nice way (at least in C++)
13:40:52 <mroman_> but since this is an issue of general interest one could have at least defined some macros in C11 compilers need to provide
13:40:55 <\oren\> ((0x80000000&(unsigned)a) != (0x80000000&(unsigned)b)) || (0x80000000&((unsigned)a + (unsigned)b)) == (0x80000000&(unsigned)a)
13:41:08 <mroman_> if they use CPU flags or some other checks will be up to the compiler and target architecture
13:41:27 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, it would be nice.
13:41:31 <mroman_> but at least having a convenient way of doing it that'll work across compilers might have been nice :)
13:41:36 <\oren\> if that evaluates to true then there isn't an overflow
13:41:44 <b_jonas> mroman_: there should be such functions
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13:44:51 <\oren\> basically if sign(a) != sign(b) thenm there can't be an overflow
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13:45:59 <\oren\> otherwise, the sign bit of the result should be equal to the sign bit of the operands. if it isn't, then there has been an overflow
13:47:46 <\oren\> there might be an edge case as well, maybe
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15:10:28 <int-e> Well, this was fun to debug... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shame.txt
15:13:11 <b_jonas> int-e: huh, what language is that?
15:15:57 <int-e> It's work related. (And fwiw, I wasn't responsible for the commit.)
15:17:06 <b_jonas> int-e: what looks strange to me is the word 'function'
15:17:28 <b_jonas> lua and pascal and some basics use that keyword, but I thought ml-likes used fn and fun
15:17:42 <b_jonas> or is it an identifier there?
15:18:27 <int-e> b_jonas: function acts like a combined fun and case.
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15:18:49 <int-e> I have not wondered whether it's an ocaml invention.
15:19:06 <Taneb> Like a function junction
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17:52:40 <hppavilion[1]> What are the rules of inference for the crazy operation? xD
17:57:53 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 11h 54m 9s ago: →:^::⇒:↑
17:57:53 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 11h 53m 14s ago: Oh, you figured that out. Well I'm still trying to deduce its exact behavior
18:00:28 <mroman_> http://pastebin.com/89fFBtvV
18:01:19 <mroman_> since I want the syntax to be as minimal as possible if, while etc. aren't part of syntax nor grammar
18:01:45 <mroman_> hppavilion[1]: nope. it's: https://github.com/FMNSSun/Ununoctium/tree/master/spec
18:02:33 <mroman_> you split by ";", then split words
18:02:39 <mroman_> and you're pretty much done with parsing :)
18:02:50 <mroman_> the first word is the name of the function to define
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18:04:51 <mroman_> It's language minimalism... sort of
18:05:07 <mroman_> not as extreme as in esoteric languages
18:05:44 <mroman_> just to undermine the point that if you design the language correctly you can parse and run it in about 100 loc
18:06:02 <mroman_> and it's not an esoteric language.
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18:09:47 <Caesura> Would oerjan happen to be available?
18:09:49 <oerjan> mroman_: i'm not sure "undermine" means what you think it means
18:10:04 <oerjan> sorry, they're all out of me.
18:10:53 <mroman_> I probably meant emphasize
18:11:13 <mroman_> My language skills are harshly deteriorating.
18:11:33 <Caesura> Aw, cripes. I ran into an issue with BCT in Daoyu - I don't know how to keep track of the "address" of the first open spot to copy the first bit for the instruction 1x
18:12:09 <oerjan> Caesura: i don't actually understand Daoyu, i'm afraid.
18:14:09 <oerjan> could you implement a queue in a different way?
18:15:30 <oerjan> what kind of infinite data structure _can_ you emulate?
18:15:35 <Caesura> The problem is I effectively can't linearly traverse the tape. I can remove the first element from the front fairly reasonably, but I cannot add to either the front or the back.
18:16:41 <mroman_> My devious plan to rule the world has been underlined.
18:16:50 <oerjan> neither front nor back - so you have problems making stacks too?
18:17:19 <Caesura> Daoyu operates on one of an arbitrary amount of arbitrarily bounded binary trees, running by taking a binary tree as a linear tape of 4-bit words to determine the operation of the data pointer.
18:17:48 <Caesura> I am fairly certain that a stack in Daoyu is extremely nontrivial...
18:18:28 <Caesura> I figured out recently how to implement a finite state machine in Daoyu, but it seems that the program size is O(e^n)
18:18:30 <oerjan> sounds like you need further research to find out how to do things.
18:18:51 <oerjan> ic. that's technically no problem for turing completeness.
18:19:17 <oerjan> you could use O(Ackermann()) in there and it'd still count :P
18:19:39 <Caesura> Indeed... it is just a bit unfortunate, really. I think it could be reduced, however, by moving some more modules into the Top level program
18:19:45 <oerjan> bit hard to debug, mind you
18:19:57 <Caesura> bit hard to write, you mean
18:20:38 <Caesura> hopefully butting modules in the top level program through access trickery could spare the utter anguish of having to rebuild every program every time for every condition
18:20:40 <oerjan> Caesura: how's your arithmetic? it's not built-in but can you emulate any? then you might go for a minsky machine.
18:21:41 <Caesura> Arithmetic emulation is something incredibly painful, although I can emulate an incrementer by looping through all possible states of a finite numeral size and taking each state to the next
18:22:32 <Caesura> so to speak, IF N WRITE 0; IF N-1 WRITE N; IF N-2 WRITE N-1; ... IF 1 WRITE 2; IF 0 WRITE 1;
18:22:34 <oerjan> <Caesura> bit hard to write, you mean <-- no, debug, if it takes eons to run a test program...
18:23:00 <Caesura> I meant that the program size has a ridiculous complexity
18:23:05 <Caesura> Not the time taken to run, necessarily
18:23:34 <Caesura> At the least for this sort of program architecture.
18:23:48 <Caesura> Since it involves writing every possible program within the program data for every state
18:24:06 <oerjan> you need to find some kind of data that's (1) reasonably easy to handle (2) still unbounded in size
18:24:26 <Caesura> The problem with this program architecture is that...
18:24:33 <Caesura> The top level is unbounded, which is fine,
18:24:56 <Caesura> The first level has a left-bounded input area, state counter, and then a right-unbounded program area
18:25:51 <Caesura> The problem is that the conditional only allows the skipping of the command immediately after - therefore a conditional execution of a program will always begin rightward from the data that is being checked
18:26:09 <Caesura> anyway, hang on, my computer is running out of batteries
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18:28:03 <oerjan> in very simple cases where it's only syntax translation, maybe
18:28:52 <oerjan> yeah but also there has to be no building up of dictionaries or the like
18:29:42 <mroman_> you could have them finite sized dictionaries :)
18:29:52 <Kaynato> Alright, I am back. At this moment I am still willing to alter the specification for Daoyu for Turing Completeness provided it does not violate its spirit or break existing functionality, I suppose
18:29:53 <oerjan> translating between brainfuck equivalents is easy. but anything that requires unbounded rearrangement is out.
18:30:20 <Kaynato> You have taken a look at the specification, right?
18:31:52 <Kaynato> Ah... Hm. Do you have suggestions for improving the page's clarity?
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18:36:38 <oerjan> i'm really too overwhelmed by the spec to make meaningful suggestions at this point.
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18:37:44 <Kaynato> The specification too baroque, then
18:39:03 <oerjan> or i'm just in shape for esolanging these days.
18:39:34 <Kaynato> It seemed simpler than the written thing. Perhaps I should respecify again taking the data as a binary tree. Don't worry about it, Daoyu is painful and most of its functionality comes from edge cases
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18:42:25 <picobit> how's everyone feel about accumulator architectures?
18:45:27 <mroman_> architectures where the result always lands in register A?
18:45:57 <mroman_> it's a little bit pita to program them
18:46:26 <mroman_> because 50% of the code is exchange D and A registers, read and write to A
18:47:15 <picobit> I'm going off the assumption that there are no other registers.
18:47:51 <mroman_> LOAD A,D; INC A; STORE A,D;
18:47:59 <picobit> although, substitute those with memory..
18:48:41 <picobit> LD <address>; INC; ST <address>;
18:48:59 <mroman_> lda <address>, inc, sta <address>
18:49:19 <mroman_> sometimes you can only load into A anyway
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18:50:40 <mroman_> so you do LDA <a>, MOV A, D; LDA <b>; ADD D; STA <a+b>
18:50:42 <picobit> accumulator machines are simple to implement.
18:51:19 <picobit> stack machines are also simple but with odd primitives (I enjoy stacks but I'd rather not re-order the elements)
18:53:24 <picobit> a transport triggered architecture is stupid simple on one case.
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18:55:52 <HackEgo> Nœd is Norwegian for distress.
18:55:52 <HackEgo> nœud is Norwegian for emergency
18:56:23 <mroman_> purely in-memory architectures shouldn't be too hard to implement
18:56:23 * oerjan swats b_jonas for not paying attention -----###
18:56:25 * picobit was not aware that nitrix supported DEFLATE.
18:56:51 <nitrix> picobit: Pssssshsssststssssssisssususussussssussssssssss~~Ssssssss..ssssss~ssss......
18:56:54 <mroman_> no registers, operands are always memory addresses
18:57:45 <mroman_> unless you imlement it in VHDL or circuits
18:57:53 <picobit> mroman_: I think memory -> memory architectures are suitable when you have high-speed memory on-die.
18:58:09 <picobit> and you don't want to access any external memory.
18:58:47 <mroman_> you can read/write from external to internal memory
18:59:22 <mroman_> don't some micros have registers in-memory anyway?
18:59:31 <mroman_> like the ones with 128B RAM or something.
18:59:51 <picobit> that's a good question. I don't think it's registers in-memory so much as a memory mapped register.
19:00:14 <mroman_> seeing that 128B RAM isn't very much
19:00:50 <picobit> the ATTiny series has like 32 bytes.
19:01:08 <mroman_> so instead of providing 32 registers you could just provide 128B ram and have everything done in-memory :D
19:01:40 <picobit> true, but you have to consider latency.
19:01:57 <picobit> there's a reason we have registers.
19:02:12 <int-e> mroman_: AVR has its registers in memory, for example. (logically at least... it also has some memory mapped IO registers just above)
19:02:27 <mroman_> lots of micros have them logically in memory
19:02:34 <mroman_> but I don't know which have it actually physically
19:03:00 <int-e> mroman_: it's hard to tell, because the physical memory tends to be part of the same chip
19:03:34 <picobit> I'd actually like to see if any existing micros use only memory.
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19:06:49 <mroman_> this guy here on SO says in the 50s and 70s it was common to have registers in-memory
19:07:09 <mroman_> of course, that's not really a reliable source
19:07:15 <mroman_> he doesn't even mention a specific processor
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19:15:21 <\oren\> whould a razberry pi be a good idea
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19:16:09 <\oren\> for attaching to a screen and watching tv on
19:16:09 <gamemanj> Well, I use one as a web server. And a mail server. And a CJDNS node. And whatever I think of at a given time that needs a continuously on server...
19:16:51 <\oren\> can it run adobe flash?
19:18:52 <int-e> \oren\: I hope not
19:19:09 <int-e> hmm, sprunge.us is ... absent.
19:19:19 <gamemanj> Apparently Gnash works on it...
19:19:40 <gamemanj> but apparently you don't want to try using it for Youtube like that.
19:20:01 <gamemanj> However, luckily Youtube itself supports HTML5.
19:20:02 <int-e> because flash is as sanitary as a flea-infested mutt with diarrhea
19:20:42 <Phantom_Hoover> you think there's much flash malware targeted at the rpi?
19:20:51 <gamemanj> so what if there's no malware?
19:21:06 <gamemanj> flash is just... messy. If you absolutely need flash to do something, and have no other options, maybe.
19:21:19 <Phantom_Hoover> which you often will if you're trying to watch web video
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19:23:14 <mroman_> doesn't html5 have better support?
19:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> in lots of places it does but you still need flash sometimes
19:25:12 <gamemanj> Phantom_Hoover: Youtube does HTML5, Beam does HTML5, Twitch does HTML5. Though, via testing I'm doing right now, it seems you have to use "http://player.twitch.tv/?channel=(ChannelID)&html5".
19:25:26 <gamemanj> But yes, you do need Flash in some places.
19:25:36 <int-e> what was html5 again... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/HTML5_APIs_and_related_technologies_taxonomy_and_status.svg suggests it's a huge mess
19:25:58 <picobit> given a fast enough piece of SRAM and some well-defined address names.. you wouldn't notice the difference between memory and registers.
19:26:13 <int-e> (though a lot more green than the last time I looked at that chart)
19:28:48 <gamemanj> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, so services like Hulu. In which case Blame DRM (tm). (or Blame Proprietary Software (tm) in general if you want)
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19:29:32 <gamemanj> If it absolutely must use Adobe Flash, and doesn't work on Gnash, there's nothing that can be done.
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19:31:15 <picobit> flash is trash! spread the word.
19:34:17 <HackEgo> smlist 436: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
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19:38:45 * int-e is guilty of playing the occasional flash game
19:40:08 <shachaf> int-e: do you play prismata twh
19:40:27 <int-e> not as far as I know
19:40:28 <gamemanj> Playing flash content, isn't the problem. It's making flash content when other people have all jumped ship.
19:41:32 <int-e> sounds like an online multi-player game, I'm out
19:45:44 <picobit> I think the last flash game I enjoyed was Stick Arena.
19:45:51 <picobit> and that was in 2006-2007.
19:46:59 <gamemanj> in GRT, that's before records began!
19:47:36 <gamemanj> (GRT: Gamemanj Relative Time. Anything > 1 year is "ancient", 2 years is "archaic", and ~8 years is "before records began")
19:48:43 <gamemanj> (As for "before existance began", that's quite a bit longer.)
19:52:25 <picobit> I remember downloading some sort of trainer for Stick Arena that let you pose as a moderator.
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19:56:06 <earendel> that mmrpgs are horrible. hundreds or thousands of players like ignoring each other. one day i'll write a game which not just allows interaction, but makes it
19:56:06 <earendel> indispensable.. first change: progressing in the game will cripple your dice-values. any advantage would imply some disadvantage. the world should be a dangerous place, and survival without teamwork impossible.people would need to take responsiblities in the game, having economical or political power over other players allowing them to pgrogress or even making slaves. why should the final boss be a stupid monster
19:56:06 <earendel> to be hacknslayed after you cliked 2-3 mice to death
19:57:05 <gamemanj> ...But what happens if the "slaves" don't like it and quit?
19:57:40 <earendel> no paypal function to be free.
19:58:17 <gamemanj> In which case, it would collapse.
19:58:36 <gamemanj> All the slaves would ragequit, the people in power would lose it, and everything would fall apart.
19:58:42 <earendel> well. it's all very vague. but i start to get a few key aspects of a good game.
19:58:45 <gamemanj> And then the game would be empty.
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19:59:47 <earendel> no seriously. i believe the people would like it. in the the early days of ultima people were playing beggars.
20:00:12 <gamemanj> Hmm. I suppose, given what I've heard, eve would be the closest match
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20:15:24 <earendel> hmm..:) " a forgotten fee payment in the game triggered the biggest battle of the past decade. " yeah.. that sounds interesting! https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fnetzwelt%2Fgames%2Feve-online-spieler-vernichten-schiffe-im-wert-von-200-000-euro-a-946251.html
20:18:22 <b_jonas> olsner: huh, what do I have to pay attention to?
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20:20:19 <olsner> I wasn't paying attention
20:21:31 <b_jonas> oerjan: what do I have to pay attention to?
20:22:00 <hppavilion[1]> What fuzzy types would make good primitives in a fuzzy type theory?
20:27:40 <gamemanj> is that talking about kernel panics or a different kind of panic?
20:28:31 <mroman_> the different kind of panic
20:29:28 <picobit> I panic when my kernel does.
20:29:46 <mroman_> not when you're i-wanna-stab-myself-panicy
20:34:36 <gamemanj> hmm... hopefully mroman_'s lack of reply is due to cudding a cushion and thus being unable to access a keyboard.
20:34:52 <gamemanj> ...or mroman_ deciding that my ideas are worthless. Either one's fine.
20:36:42 <picobit> don't see how he's being a dick.
20:36:50 <mroman_> I may have provoked the attack.
20:37:03 <mroman_> by not doing what I was supposed to do... or at least think I was supposed to do
20:37:11 <mroman_> or it's a side-effect from withdrawal
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20:49:23 * picobit ponders using a constants table over an explicit instruction format.
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20:56:39 <mroman_> although the proper english title is "A Time To Kill"
20:59:44 * gamemanj doesn't like execution, he much prefers copying bytes
21:00:21 <hppavilion[1]> <EsOS/EsoArch idea>: You cannot execute a program without first giving it a fair trial
21:00:26 <earendel> it's interesintg how computing with values broader than registers is done..64bit don't change a lot in context of algo-design. streams. interations. memoization. i wanted to bring calculating pi as an example.. but it turned out it's possible to calculate the nth digit of pi wihtout iteration^^
21:01:12 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Here's the fair trial. I accuse project-nyancat-expanded.bp of being written by gamemanj, who is an awful programmer.
21:01:19 <earendel> https://www.math.hmc.edu/funfacts/ffiles/20010.5.shtml
21:02:22 <gamemanj> (BytePusher. I expanded Nucular's NyanCat program for it. Well, closer to "ripped out the art then rewrote"...)
21:03:39 <gamemanj> (I'm still trying to work out if I should or should not put it on the wiki, since it contains, well, a few megabytes worth of nyancat sound data.)
21:04:14 <b_jonas> Does somebody use chrome? I usually use firefox, so I have a question. Has current versions of chrome fixed the bug where if you press control-F and then type the text to search for, and the window is busy computing, then you lose the part of the text you type before chrome can react and put the find text input box on?
21:05:47 <b_jonas> `8-ball that bug is still unfixed in chrome, right?
21:05:59 <prooftechnique> b_jonas: I find that that still happens to me in Chrome, when I use it
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21:09:19 <earendel> you often search and lose your text? never happened to me at all. i mean other things but nto that. sounds like the search box is part of the dom. firefox' xul components have an own life. i liked them. but it seems they decided to drop xul
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21:12:30 <b_jonas> earendel: it probably happens more often because I'm on a slow machine with little memory, so sometimes the browser takes some time to respond
21:12:53 <b_jonas> but it's a very annoying bug to me
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21:15:58 <earendel> yeah. i had to make use off the oportunity and cry about that decision. my favorite extensions stopped working already. and it ends up with extensions just being websites with access to resources they don't need to have.
21:17:40 <earendel> i like chromes dev.tools tho. and usualy it performs better. also i have upgraded my hardware last week. first time since like 5 years.
21:18:23 <earendel> i can gladly sayctrl-f works fine in chroe now. and there's still enough resources for seti.
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22:05:34 <shachaf> `bienvenido Marcela_Gandara
22:05:38 <HackEgo> Marcela_Gandara: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
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22:07:18 <int-e> #esoteric != #espanol
22:07:39 <b_jonas> ah, it's the canaima users again
22:07:42 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in Mexico!
22:08:22 <int-e> isn't it based in Canada though...
22:08:30 <int-e> I'm probably missing a cultural reference here
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22:12:05 <b_jonas> int-e: huh what? no, canaima is a software (a linux distro or somesuch) strongly associated with a particular latin-american country, and for some reason which we haven't figured out yet, people using it end up here (probably something to do with some irc client software in it)
22:12:31 <int-e> b_jonas: I was referring to the mention of Mexico in HackEgo's description
22:15:29 <b_jonas> I wonder if we should set up a bot to auto-invite these people to #canaima-social or something
22:18:33 <HackEgo> Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here.
22:24:07 <picobit> I quite like this but I wonder how one would make a conditional jump.
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22:25:18 <picobit> probably one would have a "branch" unit, whereby you'd input the conditional input into one slot and it directly messes with the program counter. a jump is as simple as {source, 0}
22:31:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: should we MODE #esoteric +b *!canaima@*$#canaima-social ? or would that be rude?
22:37:06 <zzo38> No you should make up a new channel ##canaima-notice and redirect to that one. And add a notice there that mention that this is not the Spanish IRC, and also write the translation of the message in Spanish, and explain how to do in case they actually really did want #esoteric channel
22:38:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: well, ideally someone should try to find out why canaima users get here, and what they likely want instead
22:39:12 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, and include that in the notice too.
22:39:37 <zzo38> And set the new channel made up for this purpose as free target perhaps, in case other channels are having similar problems possibly
22:39:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: #canaima has the +F (free target) flag set (but not the +g flag)
22:40:49 <picobit> even more interesting.. we're on our way to a branch unit.
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22:52:58 <zzo38> I would expect you don't need +g though it seem like +F is good for this purpose?
22:53:08 <int-e> so much for the idea that proximity of #esp to #eso would be the root cause of this confusion... there are at least two visible channels between us that them.
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23:04:01 <FireFly> Free target? I thought +F was forward
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23:05:21 <b_jonas> FireFly: +f is default forward target for banned joiners and throttle
23:06:55 <FireFly> <b_jonas> zzo38: well, ideally someone should try to find out why canaima users get here, and what they likely want instead ← have we tried asking in #canaima-social (if that's a thing)?
23:07:06 <FireFly> Seems to be a thing indeed
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23:07:32 <FireFly> I don't know spanish, but it seems like *someone* in there would know english maybe
23:08:09 <FireFly> Their topic and rules are all in spanish though..
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23:14:53 * hppavilion[1] is learning him a haskell under the promise of it bringing about great good
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23:38:40 <oerjan> <b_jonas> oerjan: what do I have to pay attention to? <-- the fact that i'd already made a `? nœd entry
23:39:00 <oerjan> and why in the world would you add a u anyway
23:39:29 <oerjan> (ok so that would be sort of nynorsk. but not in a good way, because there's no ø in the nynorsk version)
23:39:52 <oerjan> you just went to bed didn't you.
23:46:03 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas see log.
23:46:26 <earendel> zzo38: "in case they actually really did want #esoteric channel" <- are you really saying people join here on purpose?
23:46:44 <oerjan> it's been known to happen.
23:47:47 <zzo38> earendel: Yes it is possible.
23:49:33 -!- oerjan has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Kaliningrad (not Königsberg).
23:50:48 <oerjan> you kant go wrong with that
23:52:23 <earendel> so .. what would be an esoteric language that is intersting to investigate and not a brainfuck derivate? i know of those. they don't change a lot. only same obscuring tape shizzle.
23:54:25 <earendel> alright. not all at once please.
23:54:55 <oerjan> befunge, glass, fueue, ///, piet, underload, kayak
23:55:31 <oerjan> just a small sample, partly biased.
23:55:54 <oerjan> small sample i said :P
23:56:13 <earendel> ok. thank you. this will keep me busy for a while. (please don't forward me to #canaima!)
23:56:14 <int-e> i'm just asking because you've covered the rest of my shortlist
23:56:44 <oerjan> how far it's come when i don't remember unlambda, my first discovered esolang. oh wait, forgot INTERCAL.
23:57:46 <int-e> intercal is almost mainstream... even knuth has programmed in it... *runs*
23:57:48 <oerjan> did someone put up canaima forwarding? temptation has been strong.
23:58:52 <Taneb> oerjan, ooh, I don't know kayak
23:59:07 <oerjan> i know kayak from way back when i was on the mailing list
23:59:18 * int-e still has his kayak interpreter
00:01:25 <int-e> wait it's not even mine... mumble...
00:01:44 <oerjan> then you must make one </zzo38>
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00:13:04 <int-e> ah, but this one is mine at least: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/kayak/src/sort3.kayak
00:14:36 <int-e> Or perhaps more usefully, http://int-e.eu/~bf3/eso/mergesort.kayak
00:16:15 <Taneb> One thing that I find weird is there was a time when people didn't know about things like mergesort and quicksort
00:16:22 <Taneb> I've *met* the person who invented quicksort
00:17:10 <oerjan> did you grovel properly twh
00:19:13 <FireFly> Taneb: how did they invent it?
00:19:22 <FireFly> did they sit down one day and decide to write a better sort algorithm?
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00:21:50 <int-e> oh back then oerjan went by "Orjan"
00:22:32 <int-e> well, in one place (real name that went with the email address)
00:22:47 <oerjan> my institute mail address, probably
00:23:08 <int-e> the signature reads =D8rjan (less doesn't do mime decoding ;-)
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00:24:14 <Taneb> FireFly, apparently he was working somewhere and asked "Could you use shellsort to sort these?" to which he said "I bet you a tenner I can do it quicker"
00:24:17 <Taneb> And invented quicksort
00:24:54 <Taneb> (this story has two errors in it)
00:24:57 <FireFly> int-e: probbly Örjan then?
00:25:00 <Taneb> (it was a sixpence bet)
00:25:00 <oerjan> hm or maybe i just had set my realname that way. charsets were brittle back then.
00:25:10 <oerjan> FireFly: don't be ridiculous.
00:25:10 <Taneb> (and he had alrady invented it, while a visiting student in Moscow)
00:25:38 <int-e> FireFly: no, 0xD8 is Ø
00:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> quicksort was invented when it was noted that nobody had yet invented a sorting algorithm that was quick
00:26:22 <FireFly> Everyone knows oe is the ASCIIfication of ö though :p
00:26:43 <FireFly> I don't know which of Taneb's and Phantom_Hoover's stories to believe
00:26:56 <Taneb> FireFly, they don't actually contradict each other
00:27:21 <FireFly> Phantom_Hoover: why would you do that
00:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> quicksort isn't so named because it's quick at all; after all, it's O(n^2) in the worst case!
00:27:42 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: I don't want to hear your explanation of bucket sort--it's bound to be gross.
00:27:52 <oerjan> now i kind of want to.
00:28:04 <Phantom_Hoover> its name in fact comes from the idiom 'to cut to the quick', a reference to its pivot algorithm
00:29:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I thought it was because Tony Hoare was drinking a Nesquik when he authored the algorithm
00:29:57 <Taneb> Anyway, I have to go
00:30:02 <Taneb> I have a bed that needs sleeping in
00:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i understand that people can be hired to do that for you
00:30:56 <oerjan> . o O ( what will happen to the bed if not )
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00:44:18 <oerjan> * hppavilion[1] is Judge, Jury, and Instruction Execution Unit <-- . o O ( a CPU based on montesquieu principles )
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01:11:17 <zzo38> Which is doing what?
01:12:19 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Not sure yet. Probably it curries them together
01:13:27 <hppavilion[1]> So $\LAM{\{\lambda x.x, \lambda x.\lambda y.x, \lambda x.\lambda y.y\}} is...
01:30:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the one use of big lambdas i remember is in System F, where it denotes a type-level lambda
01:32:03 <oerjan> so e.g. id = \Lambda t. lambda x : t. x is the polymorphic id
01:33:20 <hppavilion[1]> [http://www.tutorialspoint.com/artificial_intelligence/artificial_intelligence_overview.htm] Artificial Intelligence is a way of making a computer, a computer-controlled robot, or a software think intelligently, in the similar manner the intelligent humans think.
01:33:38 <hppavilion[1]> I think that Tutorialspoint may have produced a strong AI
01:33:45 <oerjan> oh that's the first example in wikipedia's article on System F. notation a bit different though.
01:34:02 <shachaf> \LAmbda k. \Lambda t : k. \lambda x : t. ...
01:34:13 <shachaf> this is why there are seven levels in the hierarchy
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01:38:20 <fowl> hppavilion[1]: I think there was a space in the buffer
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01:43:43 <oerjan> FireFly: the danger of asking in #canaima-social is that we might trigger some canaima users to come here for the right purpose... and then we cannot ban it...
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01:46:19 <oerjan> * hppavilion[1] is learning him a haskell under the promise of it bringing about great good <-- *MWAHAHAHA* i mean, exactly!
01:47:26 <oerjan> there is some blog post which claims LYAH isn't actually that pedagogical, though, and suggests a different path.
01:47:41 <oerjan> (based on some online courses iiuc)
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01:50:31 <shachaf> if it's the post i'm thinking of, i don't recommend that advice too much
01:50:37 <shachaf> but maybe it happens to be correct
01:51:17 <oerjan> one of the courses is called FPsomenumbers iirc
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02:06:56 <hppavilion[1]> By the computer-scientific definition of a stack, it holds infinite data, and thus cannot be full.
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02:18:09 * oerjan whacks hppavilion[1] with the saucepan ===\__/
02:18:43 * hppavilion[1] tries to deflect, but he is equipped only for swat-proofing
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03:23:11 <FireFly> Well another channel that does not start with 'es' just had someone looking for #canaima-social join
03:23:30 <FireFly> So I think the theory that the 'es' is the crux of the problem is disproved
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03:28:46 <oerjan> but it's not _every_ channel. never seen any canaimas joining ##nomic.
03:29:34 <FireFly> Well, I don't know what would make #esoteric and #dolphin-emu similar
03:29:47 <FireFly> Except maybe that both are moderately large and not secret?
03:34:49 <oerjan> is anyone else in channels seeing many canaimans (or, if you don't notice the username/domain, people inexplicably speaking spanish)
03:37:03 <oerjan> wild option: it's all just a single troll faking this
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04:15:47 <coppro> so it turns out that 200 kilofurlongs per fortnight is a reasonable highway driving speed in canada
04:16:19 <picobit> this program to add 1 and 2, print the result, compare it to 1, if 1 is less than 3, print 3, else, print 0.
04:19:38 <zzo38> coppro: What highway? Different highways will often have different speeds
04:21:42 <oerjan> `frink 200 200 kilofurlongs per fortnight => km/h
04:21:54 <oerjan> `frink 200 kilofurlongs per fortnight => km/h
04:23:08 <oerjan> `frink 200 kilofurlongs / fortnight => km/h
04:23:08 <picobit> oerjan: it's about 1km/hr.
04:24:08 <picobit> 200 kilofurlongs is around 402 kilometers, one fortnight is 336 hours.
04:24:16 <coppro> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=200+kilofurlongs+per+fortnight+in+km%2Fh
04:24:32 <oerjan> `frink 200 kilofurlongs / fortnight => km/h
04:24:49 <oerjan> am i doing something wrong
04:25:06 <oerjan> or is frink beyond HackEgo's resources
04:25:30 <picobit> shit, I fucked up a couple decimal places lmao.
04:25:53 <HackEgo> bin/frink: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable
04:26:13 <oerjan> did someone break frink
04:26:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/frink
04:26:46 <oerjan> picobit: a programming language with unit conversions
04:27:27 <HackEgo> lib/frink: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, BuildID[sha1]=0x3d3ad786ec6233455da8a3371b38b238b692f3e1, not stripped
04:27:32 <oerjan> well it used to be when it worked
04:27:55 <oerjan> it is possible i have just forgot the syntax
04:29:27 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 4586628 Dec 9 04:12 lib/frink
04:30:17 <oerjan> i guess it shouldn't be taking this long regardless of what the syntax is.
04:30:46 <oerjan> `` frink "2*2" </dev/null
04:31:03 <oerjan> (just testing if it's connected to reading input)
04:31:27 <oerjan> `` frink "2 m/s => km/h" </dev/null
04:31:51 <HackEgo> 1 error(s) occurred during parsing. \ Syntax error: frink.expr.b9@45c7efd8, line 1, near column 7
04:32:03 <oerjan> `` frink "2 m/s -> km/h" </dev/null
04:32:31 <HackEgo> Conformance error \ Left side is: 2 m s^-1 (velocity) \ Right side is: 1.5091904506831453200e+36 m^-1 s kg^-1 (unknown unit type) \ Suggestion: divide left side by energy \ \ For help, type: units[energy] \ to list known units with these dimensions.
04:32:51 <oerjan> `` frink "2 m/s -> km/hour" </dev/null
04:33:26 <oerjan> i certainly seem to recall `frink being faster than this
04:34:01 <oerjan> `frink 200 kilofurlongs / fortnight -> km/hour
04:34:11 <zzo38> Try writing the entire words "kilofurlong/fortnight" and "kilometre/hour" I think is what you need?
04:34:20 <HackEgo> 3300000/27559 (approx. 119.7430966290504)
04:34:32 <oerjan> zzo38: nah that was close enough
04:34:57 <oerjan> zzo38: it just was the h it didn't understand (and the => i used, as well as timing out)
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04:35:07 <oerjan> i assuming it interprets h as planck's constant
04:35:08 <zzo38> On my computer I used the "units" program and got 119.74286 (so perhaps it is not quite as accurate? I don't know)
04:35:34 <zzo38> Maybe frink calculate directly by the fractions so it can be more accuracy
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04:39:54 <picobit> so I am faced with a dillema.
04:40:24 <picobit> in this virtual machine, I have no "instructions". everything consists of moving data from one place or another.
04:40:50 <picobit> which means that programs consist of source:destination pairs.
04:42:10 <picobit> you perform calculations via writing values to specific mapped locations in memory.
04:42:15 * oerjan reminded of MOV-only programming, and also Resplicate.
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04:43:00 <picobit> so your arithmetic logic unit is mapped to one location, your branch unit another.. etc.
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04:43:50 <oerjan> ah. i think that's also a known OISC type
04:44:07 <zzo38> I can say I have once designed schematics for something like that
04:44:08 <picobit> it's a modified transport-triggered architecture.
04:44:32 <zzo38> All instructions were move one register to another register and jump unconditionally.
04:44:59 <zzo38> Hoever the address to read instruction from is not only the address in the previous instruction but there are a few extra bits which are the condition flags.
04:45:25 <picobit> one sec, I'll show an example.
04:45:43 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
04:46:25 <picobit> uncomment the debug define at the top to show the transfers as they execute.
04:46:44 <picobit> on the one hand, this is stupidly simple.
04:47:35 <picobit> on the other hand, the "instructions" are pretty large, and something like adding two numbers together requires a bit more overhead.
04:47:58 <picobit> the intention is to form a TIS-100-like mesh of nodes that can pass values to eachother and perform calculations.
04:48:08 <picobit> this is the implementation for a node.
04:48:19 <picobit> (at least, just a small, simple example)
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04:50:46 <picobit> so. either I go ahead and implement something like a RISC (and make an assumption about the bit-width of the machine), I implement a stack machine (all well and good, save for the odd primitives), or say "fuck it" and accept that dealing with this kind of sizing is kind of required.
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04:54:46 <picobit> I think it's quite an interesting architecture that rightfully segments things up into functional units.
04:55:03 <picobit> simple on implementation, somewhat simple programming.. generating code for it wouldn't be too hard.
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05:17:04 <picobit> this is what it takes to add two arbitrary constants together.
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05:49:03 <zzo38> I set up a Fossil repository and it is much easier than git. One thing is autosync mode, and you do not necessarily have to copy all of the files, also you do not need a directory structure with a lot of files because instead the repository is just one file and it is a SQL database so you can even execute SQL commands on it. The commands are also simpler to operate, and it is just a single executable file.
05:50:33 <zzo38> However the webpage lacks many keyboard commands. I could easily add them for the main menu and ticket menu, but not for the wiki.
05:53:02 <picobit> damn, writing machine code for this thing is.. oddly relaxing.
05:57:42 <zzo38> My design was very different. It used a separate memory for program and data, and the data memory address was also a register and then another register to read/write data at that address. It used separate registers for the result of different arithmetic operations, but most operations shared the same registers for input (a few used the output register also for input).
05:58:30 <zzo38> Also each instruction included half of the address of the next instruction; the other half was a register that you could write to.
06:00:40 <picobit> a simple program to count from 5 to 0.
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06:01:54 <picobit> that 'add' should be a 'sub'.
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06:33:29 <FreeFull> picobit: Counting from 5 to infinity is nice too
06:36:04 <picobit> the MIPS equivalent of that program is 16 bytes. that program is 80. a stack machine equivalent would be 40 bytes.
06:37:33 <picobit> price you pay for simplicity, I suppose. this assumes a 32-bit architecture.
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07:13:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: MonadPlus can fit there, although it's probably too powerful.
07:13:57 <lambdabot> MonadPlus m => (a -> Bool) -> m a -> m a
07:15:24 <oerjan> Alternative+Traversable might work too, i think
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07:19:04 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f a) -> f a
07:20:27 <oerjan> i think you need MonadPlus to keep any structure more complicated than a list.
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07:43:42 <oerjan> makes no sentence your sense
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08:24:55 <hppavilion[1]> Most people seem to think logical argumentation is about witty comebacks.
08:25:49 <picobit> by realizing them for what they are.
08:25:58 <picobit> an approximation of an argument.
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08:38:51 <mroman> http://codepad.org/4BCgVrxO
08:39:12 <mroman> although variables are kinda unhandy
08:39:28 <mroman> (whilecall, ifcalls don't create a new scope so you inherit the scope)
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11:44:21 <HackEgo> metar/metar is a service that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
11:57:08 <lambdabot> LOWI 211050Z 25003KT 200V310 CAVOK 20/06 Q1021 NOSIG
11:58:11 <boily> int-ello. enjoying the summer?
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12:02:59 <lambdabot> KATL 211052Z 10005KT 10SM FEW180 13/09 A3009 RMK AO2 SLP185 T01280094
12:05:01 <lambdabot> CYUL 211033Z 16004KT 30SM FEW180 FEW240 02/M03 A3010 RMK AC1CI1 CI TR SLP194
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12:09:02 <quintopia> yes im always up but rarely get on irc
12:14:31 <lambdabot> EFHK 211050Z 28010KT 9999 FEW040 09/M06 Q1011 NOSIG
12:14:55 <fizzie> Not quite summer, but not bad either.
12:15:34 <fizzie> Yesterday there was a bit of sleet.
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12:17:53 <boily> quintopia: yeah, between 6:30am and 7:20am.
12:18:38 <boily> I was AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH yesterday!
12:19:29 <boily> good hosteling! and/or whatever you are disappearing at because it'd be weird to not go outside, or something that you the way prefer to be!
12:19:34 <boily> (I need coffee...)
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13:50:58 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of five genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
13:52:36 <Taneb> `run sed -i s/five/eight/ wisdom/taneb
13:52:55 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
13:53:13 <Taneb> I'm feeling a bit more integral
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14:54:03 <Taneb> (I'm probably gender-fluid)
14:55:43 <quintopia> then you should have [1,2] genders. The entire interval.
14:56:20 <quintopia> although, to be more precise, you should have a distribution on that interval
14:56:49 <Taneb> I'm not a huge fan of applied maths
14:57:33 <Taneb> They're not applied when I'm done with them
14:58:09 <quintopia> can we say you are Maybe-gendered?
14:59:15 <Taneb> That's probably inaccurate
15:06:53 <\oren\> idea: a compiler from C into C
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17:53:44 * FireFly . o O ( clang → llvm optimizer → llvm-to-C backend )
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17:56:39 <olsner> FireFly: I wonder if that would get better or worse for every iteration
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17:58:28 <FireFly> I think/hope it would reach a fixpoint after one iteration
17:58:40 <FireFly> But maybe that's wishful thinking
17:59:22 <coppro> and subscribe me to your mailing list
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18:02:31 <gamemanj> ...people still use mailing lists?
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18:28:21 <int-e> gamemanj: of course?
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19:37:22 <fizzie> Random thing of the day: Aalto University's electrical engineering building had an oscilloscope showing a fancy vector graphics counter towards first of May. (It's a big holiday-type thing in Finland, especially for students.)
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19:37:59 <Taneb> We have a screen in the CS building's foyer saying when the next buses are
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19:40:33 <fizzie> We have one of those too.
19:40:46 <fizzie> But it's just a boring LCD monitor.
19:40:58 <fizzie> An oscilloscope is much nicer.
19:41:44 <fizzie> I'd share this video I took of it if I could figure out how to remove the audio by just fiddling with this phone the right way.
19:43:08 <gamemanj> step 2: install arch linux & ffmpeg
19:43:18 <gamemanj> step 3: ...(I think you can see where this is going)
19:43:57 <fizzie> Yeah, no. If that's the alternative, I'll just wait a few days until I'm at a computer.
19:45:04 <gamemanj> fizzie: Well, you don't have to use a VM. If you have a box you can SSH into, then you can use SCP to copy the file there and do it.
19:45:10 <hppavilion[1]> Would the proper way to make a font format for Windows
19:45:28 <hppavilion[1]> Be to produce a DLL with a callable function renderString(char* s[])
19:45:35 <fizzie> I've gotten the impression U-tube has an editor of some sort, which might work.
19:46:07 <hppavilion[1]> That returns an array of bitmaps representing each character in the string as a rasterized image in a pre-set font?
19:46:26 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: that's the proper way to produce malware
19:46:57 * gamemanj gives hppavilion[1] a DLL which, upon loading, destroys the universes
19:47:40 <Taneb> That's a lot of universes
19:47:53 <int-e> or perhaps only one
19:47:56 <gamemanj> also, the Microsoft-Approved Naming Scheme for functions seems to be FirstLetterOfEachWordIsACapitalLetter
19:48:08 <fizzie> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4J9OAzXNfZAcWdOdFY4eDFLT2s/view?usp=drivesdk is a still image, though the animation was kind of nice.
19:49:22 <int-e> related: https://mobiforge.com/research-analysis/the-web-is-doom
19:49:28 <fizzie> I tapped "share link".
19:49:30 <int-e> fizzie: not enabling javascript :P
19:49:37 <fizzie> Maybe that wasn't enough.
19:49:38 <hppavilion[1]> (Well, a tagged union of bitmaps OR grayscale OR RGBAmap)
19:51:41 <fizzie> int-e: There's a lower-level link-to-file thing that I believe doesn't involve javascript, but maybe that's not what happens by sharing from the Android app. :/
19:52:06 <int-e> truetype is already turing complete... (meta reference: https://yahoo-security.tumblr.com/post/123981052855/font-parsing-vulnerabilities )
19:53:01 <int-e> fizzie: actually one of the links that noscript helpfully extracts worked
19:53:39 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I'm not sure what problem with existing vector font formats you identified that needs to be solved.
19:53:57 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: There isn't a problem; it's just an attempt to understand computers
19:54:25 <fizzie> Good. It's probably the one I normally get from the command-line gdrive tool.
19:54:52 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: there's value in not exposing turing-complete machines (and in the worst case, actual machine code) in data formats.
19:55:12 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Other than the points int-e has raised, nobody sane uses DLLs to store resources.
19:55:49 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I'm talking about how one makes a renderer /for/ a font
19:56:02 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Oh. That wasn't the question you described above, but OK.
19:56:20 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: oh. "make a font format" is ambiguous.
19:56:55 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I'm making a thing that accepts a font in a format (or, well, the name) and a string and produces the bitmap for the string
19:57:38 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: anyway in that case... I suspect the OS wants to be able to cache glyphs.
19:58:36 <gamemanj> Well, modern font rendering is complex
19:59:06 <gamemanj> There's ligatures, subsitutions, RTL, kerning, spacing, all the different types of curves,
19:59:21 <gamemanj> and 0x10000 characters. Before we get into Emoji.
19:59:43 <fizzie> I think you generally don't. Because if it's not part of the "system" (FSVO), every program wanting to take advantage of it would have to do so separately, and they wouldn't.
19:59:50 <gamemanj> Which means it really depends what font format you're trying to render.
20:00:17 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I'm inventing a simplistic format as a project. Let's say it's for school.
20:00:41 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: And let's pretend that said school assignment has 3+ years to be completed.
20:02:10 <gamemanj> It depends on how much you want to cover.
20:02:45 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I want to build it slowly; not as a single monolithic program that has all features right off the bat
20:03:05 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Nobody is going to ever /use/ this /seriously/, so it doesn't have to be spectacular
20:03:07 <fizzie> If you don't have any practical goals, you could as well implement your format as an extension to FreeType, which already supports a number of formats.
20:03:11 <gamemanj> Unifont, for example, is a bitmap font that more-or-less handles the Unicode BMP, and can be easily rendered.
20:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: My font format is a rather primitive vector-based thing.
20:04:27 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I just need to know what kind of file I use to make an easily-renderable font that can be used by things /other/ than applications which include the entirety of the renderer code packaged with them
20:05:06 <gamemanj> Are you asking about making a font or making a font renderer?
20:05:28 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I don't care about the code I'm putting into the file, I just care what I need to do to make it usable by external programs (that support it in their code)
20:05:56 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Once I know what kind of file I'm producing, I can find how to make it online
20:06:15 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I'd look at http://www.cairographics.org/manual/cairo-User-Fonts.html for inspiration
20:06:17 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: It boils down to: Is making the renderer a DLL the right way to go for windows?
20:06:36 <gamemanj> Make a TTF. FontForge can make it, but Birdfont also works (but is a bit of a mess)
20:06:51 <int-e> (I wouldn't expect it to solve all problems... but it's something smart people have worked on.)
20:07:12 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: The goal isn't to make a font. It's to make a format for encoding fonts.
20:07:50 <gamemanj> So, basically, your question boils down to "If I am inventing my own format, and using it in multiple applications, should I put loading/rendering code into a DLL?"
20:07:50 <int-e> (and I'd call it a "font renderer" instead of a "font format")
20:08:27 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: And if it shouldn't be a DLL, what should it be?
20:08:35 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Keep your font format (your data) separate from your font renderer (your code) and you'll be fine.
20:09:03 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: The renderer is the demonstration of the format.
20:09:03 <int-e> I like it when (academic) spam comes right to the point. Subject: Publish your papers
20:09:33 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: The renderer should read the font data from a file - having the DLL be the font is a great way to stop you from ever having more than one font.
20:09:37 <Zoroaster> Cannot seem to get GLUT and GL to work on gcc with MinGW...
20:10:24 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: So now I'm confused as to why there was any question about it in the first place. It seems you have your plan in order and correct.
20:10:41 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Yes, I was just confirming that it /was/ correct
20:10:42 <fizzie> int-e: Do these "get any degree in 5 weeks" emails count as "academic spam"?
20:11:36 <Zoroaster> Hm... is there, however, an alternative, hpp?
20:11:38 * int-e is not getting those
20:11:58 <hppavilion[1]> Zoroaster: I never got it to work. I might get it working in the future.
20:11:59 <fizzie> "No examination! No study! No class!"
20:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: The question was "Am I doing this right", it wasn't "How do I do this".
20:12:13 <int-e> fizzie: haha, at least the last one is accurate
20:12:26 <fizzie> I'm not sure what you spend the 5 weeks doing. Paying, I guess.
20:12:43 <Zoroaster> hpp: When you do it, could you ping me? Thanks.
20:13:01 <fizzie> int-e: It's also "100% confidential".
20:13:11 <hppavilion[1]> Zoroaster: But I'm not going to be able to help you any time soon, so find someone more qualified.
20:13:24 <fizzie> I think that means they send the papers in an unremarkable envelope.
20:13:44 <int-e> fizzie: perhaps you have to keep them confidential too
20:14:10 * gamemanj copies out this conversation and pastes it to a remote server
20:14:47 <fizzie> I just sent my thesis pre-examiner the finished book by snail mail, and it weighed 508g, while the postage cost class boundary was at 500g.
20:15:39 <coppro> that reminds me I need to order a printout of my thesis
20:16:04 <fizzie> How large are your printouts?
20:16:18 <fizzie> In numbers of copies, I mean.
20:16:24 <gamemanj> fizzie: maybe you should have taken some scissors to one of the pages
20:16:54 <gamemanj> or, better, taken some scissors to all of the pages, cut off a little margin from each...
20:17:08 <fizzie> I printed 80, because someone from the department said the previous ones had been 60 and 100.
20:17:50 <fizzie> gamemanj: I think I could've just removed some bubble wrap, but it was all taped shut at that point.
20:18:42 <gamemanj> it's like clothes store manniquins - eevil
20:19:08 <fizzie> Hmm, helium-filled bubble wrap...
20:19:40 <fizzie> There might be a rule about shipping that.
20:20:06 <gamemanj> There might be a rule about making the postmaster sound like a chipmunk.
20:20:39 <fizzie> Oh. You can't mail helium either, I just checked.
20:21:24 <int-e> well you'd need to displace about 8l of air...
20:21:26 <fizzie> Or, rather, you need to do something special about that, not just stuff it in a regular consumer envelope.
20:22:08 <fizzie> The envelope thickness must be <= 30 mm as well.
20:23:34 <gamemanj> And presumably it can't contain flattened human - there goes my vacation plans, certain kinds of biscuits - there goes my backup-backup-backup business plan - or any form of bicarbonate of soda - there goes my semi-evil plotting plans.
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20:41:42 <earendel> backup-backup-backup business pla
20:42:26 <earendel> have such too. it's a mess. i'm afraid to delete them.
20:45:48 <gamemanj> Aha! A Unicode Heart! I must frame this!
20:46:24 <gamemanj> there, now it's framed and going in my collection of Unicode letters
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20:49:37 <prooftechnique> I did not know that the couple emojis were composed of combining characters. 👨❤️👨
20:50:38 <gamemanj> well done, prooftechnique, selecting your text creates a weirdness field now (because combining chars)
20:53:15 * gamemanj was reading a feed one day and found out that someone had adopted the unicode character "CIRCLED DIGIT NINE" U+2468
20:53:53 * gamemanj is not curious as to the choice of character, but more curious as to why on earth a character can be adopted
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20:55:39 <prooftechnique> It's free labor and maintenance for an indeterminate amount of time for no guaranteed benefit.
20:58:36 <fizzie> The thing about adopting a character is that many people can adapt the same character.
20:59:11 <gamemanj> see "チルノ": http://www.unicode.org/consortium/adopted-characters.html
20:59:21 <fizzie> Unlimited amount of people on the bronze tier, 5 on the silver tier and 1 on the gold.
20:59:29 <gamemanj> I haven't that much of a clue who チルノ is...
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21:00:46 <fizzie> If it didn't cost actual money, I'd recommend for #esoteric to officially adopt the multiocular o (ꙮ).
21:01:02 <nergis> nitrix: shutting idiots out won't allow them to improve, they'll just keep making people facepalm. It's a lose-lose. By letting us in, we can improve and in the long run make a win-win situation of it all
21:01:13 * gamemanj mumbles "and a hundred dollars at that, which isn't even money I understand"
21:01:20 -!- nitrix has left ("WeeChat 1.4").
21:01:30 <gamemanj> (and the best way to handle money you don't understand is not to spend it)
21:01:54 <gamemanj> Ice fairies don't exist, last I checked.
21:02:04 <shachaf> fizzie: Bronze adoption is only $100.
21:02:44 <HackEgo> 1136) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
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21:04:17 <gamemanj> you can't rhyme with unicode chars
21:04:37 <gamemanj> in the same way that most people can't jump over bars
21:04:52 <gamemanj> But if you end up with some doubt
21:04:56 <gamemanj> remember what life is all about
21:06:31 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
21:06:41 <int-e> that *is* the joke.
21:07:36 <shachaf> Well, the original limerick didn't use the Unicode character.
21:07:44 <shachaf> But it was quickly improved.
21:07:47 <prooftechnique> Oh, good. It just didn't show for me. That's much funnier
21:08:29 <prooftechnique> Of all the weird characters for Pragamata not to have :/
21:11:03 <APic> pragma in ##C hates me B-(((
21:11:22 <APic> pragma-, sorry.
21:13:43 <vanila> use /ignore to turn off his messages
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21:19:02 <hppavilion[1]> A fully-featured programming language, modulo the basic stuff you need to do anything
21:20:07 <hppavilion[1]> So it has things like FOR loops and IF-THEN and a poweful type system
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21:25:50 <hppavilion[1]> (complex-argument function? Rather than natural-argument?)
21:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... is there an automated online tool that allows you to select the best programming language for a project?
21:29:39 <hppavilion[1]> It'd be based on a generalization of the `take 2 [Fast, Good, Cheap]` model
21:45:22 <shachaf> fizzie: https://twitter.com/unicode
21:45:24 <shachaf> I kind of want to adopt a code point with a name longer than 140 characters.
21:48:50 <int-e> they'll just put the name on the image then
21:49:36 <int-e> (well, they certainly could, I can't say whether they would)
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22:17:03 <shachaf> int-e: It's scow how Twitter encourages people to put text in images.
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22:44:16 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 14h 51m 55s ago: NN is the natural numbers
22:46:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oh, in that case the answer is yes: you can easily generalize it to 2-adic integers. unfortunately then it also gets trivially false - you have both cycles (because you can solve equations) and non-repeating sequences (because the cardinality is too big for there not to be)
22:47:09 <oerjan> e.g. 3x+1=8x has a solution in the 2-adics
22:47:39 <oerjan> (exactly one, because you can divide by 5)
22:50:18 <oerjan> hm should be doable by hand...
22:51:23 <hppavilion[1]> I want a statically-typed 2JS language with operator overloading. Does such a thing exist?
22:53:10 <oerjan> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 205 ""
22:53:21 <oerjan> hm not repeating enough
22:53:43 <lambdabot> [1,16,256,4096,65536,1048576,16777216,268435456,4294967296,68719476736,10995...
22:55:11 <oerjan> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit (2^64 - (2^64-1) `div` 5) ""
22:55:12 <lambdabot> "1100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001100110011001101"
22:55:49 <oerjan> there you go, it's that pattern extended leftwards
22:56:10 <oerjan> (i guess this wasn't really by hand)
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22:58:20 <vanila> the number repeats forever
22:58:25 <oerjan> btw in case you didn't know, 2-adic integers are essentially 2's complement arithmetic with infinite bitsize
22:58:54 <vanila> is there any interest in p-adic integers that are 'rational' vs irrational
22:59:44 <oerjan> vanila: the rationals embed in the p-adic field, so they're really just the normal rationals in a different surrounding space.
22:59:58 <oerjan> aka "it's a field of characteristic 0"
23:00:09 <vanila> im only talking about the integers though
23:00:26 <vanila> like ...11001100110011001101
23:00:27 <oerjan> in that case you have m/n where p does not divide n
23:00:32 <vanila> vs ...1010001010111110101100001
23:00:46 <oerjan> and i think they're indeed the ones that repeat that way
23:02:18 <oerjan> i don't know enough about p-adic integers to know whether there are any particular irrational ones that are considered "interesting" (although the obvious guess would be someone thinks so)
23:02:49 <oerjan> i think there's a theory of algebraic ones
23:03:19 <vanila> oh yeha for number theory
23:04:00 <oerjan> i vaguely recall something about limits behaving nicer in the p-adics than in the reals in some circumstances
23:08:22 * oerjan realized today that girl genius has a lot of dungeons
23:11:41 <Taneb> Castle Stormvarus or whatever, Castle Heterodyne, the library in Paris...
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23:12:20 <Taneb> The monk's place with the trains
23:12:24 <Taneb> I can't think of any others?
23:13:09 <oerjan> maybe the mechanicsburg cathedral
23:13:52 <oerjan> well maybe not so many, but they've spent a lot of time on them
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23:16:22 <oerjan> Taneb: oh there were _two_ sturmvoraus castles
23:17:12 <oerjan> sturmhalten and the one they used the portal to
23:17:27 <oerjan> boily: we're discussing how many dungeony places there are in girl genius
23:18:35 <boily> I kind of lost track. I'm taking the wait-for-a-decade-and-get-things-sorted-out-then route.
23:18:57 <oerjan> perhaps the tunnels near mechanicsburg where the jägers took agatha
23:19:06 <Taneb> I forgot about the one they took the portal to
23:20:59 * oerjan wonders if the dreen are manipulating events so that they can get to go home
23:22:24 <oerjan> i wonder if they're inspired by the heptapods in story of your life
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23:22:51 <oerjan> (not in appearance but in behavior)
23:22:51 <boily> Taneb has heptapods in his life?
23:23:14 <oerjan> boily: "story of your life" is the name of a story hth
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23:26:02 <oerjan> that wikipedia synopsis already sounds different than the original story.
23:26:27 <oerjan> hope they didn't mess up the basic premise
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23:29:04 <oerjan> <Taneb> I'm feeling a bit more integral <-- just two? how boring.
23:29:40 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, i read that story
23:29:59 <oerjan> well someone here linked me the story
23:30:30 <oerjan> s/me //, it may been just logreading
23:31:29 <shachaf> I know I linked copumpkin to another story in that book.
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00:08:24 <hppavilion[1]> Is there an solang for mad scientific computing yet?
00:12:52 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, no google results for mad scientific computing in the first place
00:13:52 <fowl> Mad scientists are being persecuted
00:14:14 <oerjan> trust no one, keep your death ray handy
00:16:04 <oerjan> steer away from madlab, it's crap
00:16:10 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But I think it needs to be an esolang to qualify as a mad scientific computing language
00:16:45 <hppavilion[1]> (in the former message, the "mad" biassociates with both "scientific" and "language")
00:16:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think we both failed to find a suitable pun for that one hth
00:17:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's weird how normal scientific computing yields itself so easily to mad science puns.
00:18:10 <oerjan> it's like APL, but more Zalgo
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00:18:35 <oerjan> extra dimensions leaking everywhere
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00:28:43 <HackEgo> U+1F468 MAN \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 a8 UTF-16BE: d83ddc68 Decimal: 👨 \ 👨 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2764 HEAVY BLACK HEART \ UTF-8: e2 9d a4 UTF-16BE: 2764 Decimal: ❤ \ ❤ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+FE0F VARIATION SELECTOR-16 \ UTF-8: ef b8 8f UTF-16BE:
00:29:53 <HackEgo> U+2764 HEAVY BLACK HEART \ UTF-8: e2 9d a4 UTF-16BE: 2764 Decimal: ❤ \ ❤ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+FE0F VARIATION SELECTOR-16 \ UTF-8: ef b8 8f UTF-16BE: fe0f Decimal: ️ \ ️ \ Category: Mn (Mark, Non-Spacing) \ Bidi: NSM (Non-Spacing Mark) \ \ U+1F468 MAN \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 a8 UTF-16BE:
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00:30:38 <HackEgo> U+2764 HEAVY BLACK HEART \ UTF-8: e2 9d a4 UTF-16BE: 2764 Decimal: ❤ \ ❤ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F468 MAN \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 a8 UTF-16BE: d83ddc68 Decimal: 👨 \ 👨 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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00:52:13 <boily> `relcome Zoroaster
00:52:20 <HackEgo> Zoroaster: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:53:13 <Zoroaster> Ah, sorry, it's just a backup name. I might've pinged out and auto-logged in with this
00:53:34 <boily> and who might you be usually?
00:54:15 <Zoroaster> Ah, I think my phone is the culprit
00:54:26 * oerjan recognizes the username but cannot remember the nick
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01:08:14 <HackEgo> Kaynato: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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01:29:03 <boily> `` mv wisdom/blaeg wisdom/blæg
01:40:02 <HackEgo> blaeg is a color that cannot exist under the current understanding of physics. It is used on the #esoteric flag, along with ultraviolet and whatever is convenient. It is a nullary color, meaning that it can be mixed with itself to produce the primary colors.
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01:52:32 <hppavilion[1]> boily: No, blaeg is spelled like that. Well, technically, it has letters in it that make you go insane from looking at them, which I left out, but...
01:59:15 <boily> Taneb: more genders, more or less?
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02:03:34 <boily> ♪ DING ♪ PDF update!
02:03:47 <boily> now with ~5% less overfull hboxen!
02:09:19 <boily> did you know that a study found that overflowing hboxen are the leading cause of lines suffering from Acute Page Cropping Syndrome?
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02:13:53 <boily> YOU HAVE NO PROOF I HAVE NO CITATIONS LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!
02:14:31 <hppavilion[1]> <font name="Times New Roman"><i>This is stupid!</i></font>
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02:48:49 <FreeFull> HackEgo took a while to respond there
02:49:29 <boily> FrelloFull! that was abnormally fast for HackEgo.
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03:50:56 <hppavilion[1]> Given only the generators repeat(x), chain(x...), and cycle(listOfValues), and some other generator that you pretty much need to have that I didn't think of, construct something that isn't boring.
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04:22:45 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: It concatenates the sequences, bascially
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05:20:39 <oerjan> attack of the girl genius poster interruption
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11:55:56 <lambdabot> CYUL 221026Z 13008KT 10SM -RA FEW008 BKN012 OVC050 12/11 A2982 RMK SF1SF5SC2 SLP101
12:04:13 <lambdabot> EFHK 221050Z VRB02KT 9999 -SHRA FEW010 SCT025CB BKN050 04/01 Q1003 NOSIG
12:04:37 <dr_fizzie> Sounds more than -SHRA from where I am.
12:05:30 <boily> dr_fizziello. you're a doctor now?
12:09:17 <dr_fizzie> As of yesterday, but I only got the email today.
12:09:33 <dr_fizzie> And won't get the fancy-looking papers until June.
12:11:44 <dr_fizzie> Plus our university doesn't have the traditional sword, unlike the neighbours. :/
12:12:48 <boily> doctor in mathematics?
12:14:51 <dr_fizzie> Well, it's a "D.Sc. (Tech)", from the Department of Signal Processing and Acoustics, but it's really just more speech recognition stuff.
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13:36:45 -!- int-e has set topic: Recommended by doctors! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Kaliningrad (not Königsberg).
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13:52:22 <Taneb> Congratulations, dr_fizzie
13:52:32 <Taneb> Wait 5 or so years for me to catch up, please
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16:05:45 <dr_fizzie> Okay, but what exactly should I not do while waiting?
16:17:32 <Taneb> The main thing to not do is make fun of me for not having a doctorate
16:17:40 <Taneb> (it's my medium term plan)
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17:17:28 <HackEgo> olist 1034: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:40:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: idontknowlist: not found
17:54:07 <zzo38> What is your opinion about my farbfeld utilities?
18:06:33 <shachaf> I've never heard of your farbfeld utilities.
18:09:03 <zzo38> A webpage is available at http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/
18:09:22 <zzo38> You can also direct download by http://zzo38computer.org/prog/farbfeld.zip
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18:18:15 <shachaf> zzo38: That's some pretty fancy JavaScript UI.
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18:19:18 <zzo38> shachaf: I put some of the JavaScript codes in because it was impossible to edit the HTML directly
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18:20:03 <zzo38> It still works fine without JavaScript, although some of the accesskeys are not available, and the diagram for branches is not available.
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18:54:08 <zzo38> Is it possible to use Do-Not-Track with Apache?
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18:56:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Recommended by pi out of 5 doctors! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Kaliningrad (not Königsberg).
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20:21:54 <rdococ> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test
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20:23:13 <rdococ> the more <insert a defining trait here> characters there are in a film, the less you value each <insert a defining trait here> character
20:23:25 <rdococ> infact, the more of anything there is in anything, the less you value each thing
20:23:55 <gamemanj> In practice there's no exact test that defines bias. But at least people can try to avoid bias, surely?
20:24:27 <gamemanj> The trouble is, with any specific test, it's too easy to write to the letter but not the spirit.
20:24:28 <rdococ> what's wrong with bias? a film is a film - if it's only about men then it's not hurting anyone
20:25:42 <zzo38> I think it is fine whatever they want to make the movie about, although you shouldn't make all of them the same thing!
20:25:48 <rdococ> if it's about males fighting or competing for a female, then it's actually discriminating against the males.
20:26:19 <zzo38> But if a lot of different people make movies, then there will be a lot of different movies and therefore will be less problem.
20:26:44 <rdococ> my theory stands that males are valued less due to their more common appearance, like inflation in economics
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20:27:15 <rdococ> in nature - males compete for female attention
20:27:22 <rdococ> like as if they have to prove something
20:27:41 <rdococ> it sickens me to the very core
20:28:27 <rdococ> most villains are male, male villains get less sympathy than female ones, male heroes are more common, promoting the idea that males are stronger than females, even though that's not necessarily true
20:29:28 <rdococ> males in general get less sympathy
20:30:35 <gamemanj> Best solution is to stay away from those kinds of arguments.
20:30:52 <rdococ> sure, in some films, females are portrayed as rewards or trophies, but that only glorifies them
20:31:33 <zzo38> I don't care, but I would hope that many different people can many many different kind of movie; you should not make them all same way otherwise it isn't worth as much
20:32:03 <shachaf> rdococ: what if you found another channel for this
20:32:15 <rdococ> shachaf, do you have any suggestions?
20:32:56 <rdococ> you're only in one channel
20:43:05 * int-e sees three channels that shachaf is in
20:43:35 <int-e> (and that ist is incomplete)
20:44:06 <int-e> `learn An ist is an incomplete list.
20:44:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'ist': An ist is an incomplete list.
20:47:00 <b_jonas> So people on the streets of our beautiful city usually just throw their cigarette butts and other trash on the street, even if there's a trashcan very close to them. I wonder if they just believe a pure garbage collection approach is more efficient in the end than the pure reference counting approach I prefer, in which I keep track of which items I need for what and if I no longer need one I throw it to the trash immediately.
20:47:50 <gamemanj> b_jonas: create_object 1 ; create_object 2 ; link_object 1 2 ; link_object 2 1
20:48:59 <b_jonas> gamemanj: yes, I do sometimes have objects that get stuck forever in a referenced state despite that I never use them
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20:50:04 <gamemanj> pure reference counting is fine given immutable objects.
20:50:51 <b_jonas> gamemanj: yeah, but the objects are not immutable: some objects in my fridge go rotten without me touching them, so I don't notice that they're no longer useful until too late.
20:54:30 <gamemanj> For mutable objects, it's still possible to use refcounts, as long as a circular reference never occurs.
20:57:43 <int-e> b_jonas: perhaps by the time the city becomes uninhabitable, people will have moved on to the next one...
20:58:01 <int-e> ...that's how I picture a copying garbage collector in this analogy.
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20:59:01 <gamemanj> To be honest, I'd prefer a system which is managed enough to keep track of references, but asks the program to GC them.
20:59:17 <int-e> but what would Baker's treadmill look like?
21:01:31 <gamemanj> A city, continuously reshaping, restructuring...
21:02:15 <gamemanj> Area being created where there was none before, areas being thrown about, swapped, restructured, yet the participants act as this is normal...
21:03:10 <gamemanj> . o O ( Hey, words go into these? )
21:03:21 <zzo38> Do not throw your cigarettes end on the floor the cockroaches will have cancer
21:04:03 <gamemanj> Well, good news! I don't smoke. And I intend to keep things that way.
21:04:28 <zzo38> I also do not smoke and do not want to smoke
21:06:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:06:25 <gamemanj> Besides, I'm sure there's much more productive ways of giving cockroaches cancer.
21:17:48 <int-e> gamemanj: it's supposed to be a thought bubble... I use it for shaky ideas that I wouldn't know how to defend properly but still find cute enough to share
21:18:09 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, a copying garbage collector worked well for me: when I moved to this apartment, there were a lot of items that I just didn't bring here.
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21:27:30 <hppavilion[1]> Given that metallic n = (n+sqrt (n^2+4))/2, find the n such that metallic n = pi
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21:36:25 <int-e> 2*sinh(log(atan(1))+log(4))
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22:08:02 <impomatic> Hi, does anyone know why the logs on codu are down? :-/
22:09:12 <impomatic> Also for any BOX-256 fans (int-e / phantom_hoover?) I've written a Forth interpreter! http://corewar.co.uk/box256/pandora.htm :-)
22:13:18 <shachaf> impomatic: I don't know why, but I know that the tunes logs are up.
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23:03:40 <newsham> https://gist.github.com/marcan/347faf7fa09802016d0c253699132539
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23:18:31 <int-e> impomatic: hmm, are the two @3C in U< correct? IIUC, they should be @34
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23:42:38 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to be forming an idea as to how to make an artificial intelligence
23:47:36 <Phantom_Hoover> you might also want to invent a time machine that goes to the early 60s
23:48:23 <hppavilion[1]> You combine Alethic Logic (necessary/possible), Deontic Logic (may/should), Temporal logic (time), and a logic I'm making called Want-Need Fulfillment (it's right there in the name), as well as limited forms of Epistemic (knowledge) and (maybe) Doxastic Logic (belief)
23:49:03 <hppavilion[1]> And it has a concept of actor possession (A owns i) and action (A performs a)
23:50:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you realize Phantom_Hoover was being sarcastic? (also, i was trying hard not to make a similar comment, but dropped it because i wasn't sure exactly _which_ previous decade of ai failure you were reinventing.)
23:51:18 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It includes machine learning features (induction results in beliefs under the Doxastic logic)
23:51:19 <oerjan> wait, i'm contradicting myself
23:51:27 * oerjan disappears in a puff of logic
23:52:51 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The idea is more for a management AI than for a sentient AI, at least for now
23:53:47 <oerjan> i'm sure the 60s would have loved an AI with an a priori possession concept for fighting the communists
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23:54:16 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's not about possession so much as about "has"
23:54:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: make it the 50s and you can include a priori race theory hth
23:55:50 <hppavilion[1]> The "limits" on the Doxastic and Epistemic logics are that the only actor that it can analyze the knowledge/beliefs of is itself, at least in certain applications
23:55:57 <hppavilion[1]> Because otherwise things probably wouldn't go well
23:56:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The purpose of this is it's more about making a thing that you put in control of resource distribution than it is about making a thing that is alive
23:57:01 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Also, I'm pretty sure we still had race theory in the 60s in 'murica
23:58:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think MLKj was the 60s, and he didn't magically fix everything immediately, so...
23:59:30 <oerjan> well of course people didn't all change at once.
23:59:43 <oerjan> but that's when the laws were changed.
00:11:10 <zzo38> I think I have found a bug in LodePNG, but do not yet know what the bug is.
00:12:15 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/img_1A/wrongLodePNG.png The background is supposed to be black, not transparent.
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00:18:01 <zzo38> I will try upgrading to the latest version to see if that corrects it.
00:23:30 <hppavilion[1]> If one were to make a FOSS skype-like application in the style of GNU
00:23:39 <zzo38> That fixed it but I also found another problem in that my program is writing a short output
00:24:01 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I think a lot of GNU software is too large and complicated
00:24:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: The question was, to some degree, to open joke vectors
00:29:01 <zzo38> I suppose it could be possible although vi is a text editor so the function would be different. One that uses command-line parameter and then simply open a connection, using the keys on keyboard to do controls, could work I suppose. Command-line option can include whether you are the server or the client as well as an optional security key file
00:29:36 <zzo38> To use a sufficiently simple protocol that can be independent of the implentation, can also help.
00:31:54 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'm currently just serializing a NumPy array xD
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00:46:16 <HackEgo> Moon_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:46:25 <oerjan> shachaf: i had to look at the oots wiki to finally remember who that paladin woman is
00:47:05 <Moon_> main reason im here at the sec is cause i need some help makeing the specs for the Demons Esoteric Language, which i have the starting page up on the wiki
00:47:34 <Moon_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Demons
00:48:22 <shachaf> oerjan: am i forgetting something
00:48:56 <oerjan> dr_fizzie: i think the HackEgo wikilink is broken
00:49:16 <Moon_> also, what would be a good way to make a interpreter for Demons?
00:49:29 <oerjan> @tell dr_fizzie i think the HackEgo wikilink is broken
00:49:45 <zzo38> Why didn't they add a XOR filter into the PNG specification? (It might be useful for some scanlines of some indexed-color pictures)
00:50:11 <shachaf> dr_fizzie: whoa, congradoctor
00:50:15 <Moon_> Lazyness is best bet, .PNG is made for online use
00:50:21 <oerjan> bah, doctorates are overrated
00:50:26 <zzo38> (There could be two, a horizontal XOR filter and a vertical XOR filter)
00:50:42 <Moon_> Png is literally made for the web
00:50:46 <shachaf> oerjan: doctorates are very high
00:51:00 <oerjan> shachaf: forgetting what?
00:51:12 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm just commenting on the last `olist
00:51:22 <shachaf> hasn't she appeared in the last few olists too
00:51:45 <shachaf> anyway you can't trust anything fizzie says now
00:52:01 <Moon_> Is anyone intrested in making Demons sample code (no interpreter at the second, so you might have to wait)
00:52:25 <zzo38> The YZIP picture library format (used with Z-machine) requires indexed-color and requires that each scanline is XOR the scanline above it, or the picture header can specify to XOR with the scanline above the scanline above it instead. It also supports optional RLE and Huffman compression, but not DEFLATE.
00:52:51 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, but i was sort of hoping that they'd address each other by name some time soon
00:53:10 <Moon_> im guessing im being ignored
00:53:35 * oerjan has just opened the Demon page
00:54:11 <Moon_> first thing oerjan sees: omg this needs so much improvement
00:54:13 <shachaf> oerjan: well, i can't recall her name hth
00:55:43 <Moon_> oerjan: it would be nice if you commited to helping out with the specifications and sample code (interpreter would be amazing)
00:56:18 <tswett> I wonder if anyone's ever come up with a universal compression format.
00:56:24 <oerjan> Moon_: sadly i don't think it's my style of esolang
00:56:33 <tswett> Use it for compressing any sort of thing. Images, sound, text, video.
00:56:52 <Moon_> damn, at least you can store it in small spaces
00:57:04 <Moon_> (and hide it in a midi file if you wish)
00:57:34 <tswett> Call it... "gflampeng".
00:59:32 <zzo38> Moon_: I suppose you did not define all opcodes yet? Are some opcodes suppose to be user-defined and/or interpreter-defined?
00:59:49 <oerjan> also i mostly gave up on improving esolang pages back in october or so when i'd built up a 2 month backlog.
01:00:16 <Moon_> interpreter defined, but new opcodes to the standard are welcome
01:00:54 <Moon_> just like the size of a address is interpreter dependent
01:01:00 <shachaf> oerjan: *MWAHAHAHA* doesn't seem like an appropriate name for a paladin hth
01:01:08 <zzo38> Perhaps reserve 0x80 up to 0xFF for interpreter define could be made up
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01:01:33 <Moon_> maybe, why dont you add that?
01:01:40 <zzo38> Moon_: Is endianness also interpreter dependent?
01:02:11 <oerjan> shachaf: not asian enough?
01:02:33 <zzo38> In OASYS VM the endianness and size of numbers (there are no addresses) is implementation-defined, too
01:03:07 <oerjan> Moon_: i suggest you ask hppavilion[1] *cackles evilly*
01:03:20 <Moon_> mhm, well, really i would say it should be big endianness
01:03:41 <Moon_> but interpreter dependent, yea
01:04:52 <oerjan> shachaf: Mua Haxa perhaps?
01:05:20 <zzo38> (The standard implementations only compile and execute the native format of numbers of the computer it runs on, although I wrote a compiler myself which supports 8-bit or 16-bit or 32-bit, with big-endian or small-endian, independent of the computer it runs on)
01:05:21 * oerjan vaguely trying to learn pinyin lately
01:05:48 * Moon_ thinks zzo38 is thinking about making a Demons interpreter
01:05:59 * Moon_ would be very happy if that is right
01:06:01 <oerjan> actually x has the wrong pronunciation
01:06:42 <zzo38> Moon_: Actually at this time I am not; sorry. (Possibly in future though)
01:06:59 <Moon_> its fine, i was curious
01:07:11 <Moon_> i have yet to make the hello world program sample
01:07:52 * oerjan needs to look up how jqx are really supposed to be done
01:09:13 <Moon_> Also, i beleive demons has the possibility of being compiled
01:10:48 <oerjan> . o O ( could need better erroring )
01:11:08 <Moon_> i dont have the right key
01:11:33 <oerjan> Moon_: oh HackEgo strips space :P
01:11:49 <oerjan> so that was probably a coincidence
01:11:55 <oerjan> `unicode MULTIOCULAR O
01:11:57 <HackEgo> U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O \ UTF-8: ea 99 ae UTF-16BE: a66e Decimal: ꙮ \ ꙮ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
01:12:24 <Moon_> zzo38: are you updating the wiki page then?
01:12:24 <oerjan> it has two different output styles dependent on which database it finds it in
01:12:34 <tswett> `unicode PREGNANT WOMAN
01:13:49 <Moon_> what are your favorite esoteric programming language?
01:14:18 <oerjan> `unicode SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
01:14:18 <tswett> `unicode POWER SLEEP SYMBOL
01:14:31 <tswett> Moon_: my favorite esoteric programming languages tend to be the ones I've made.
01:14:41 <tswett> /// might be my favorite.
01:15:57 <Moon_> oer, would a interpreter for Demons be possible from you? it would be a nice favor
01:16:54 <oerjan> i rarely work even on the languages that interest me, and yours really doesn't.
01:17:39 <Moon_> i should get to work, then *really bad at interpreters*
01:27:07 <Moon_> standard opcode table:
01:27:10 <Moon_> char validopcodes = {0x00,0x01,0x02,0x03,0x04,0x05,0x06,0x07,0x08,0x09,0x0A,0x0B,0x0C,0x0D,0x0F,0x10,0x11,0x12,0x13,0x14,0x15,0x16,0x17,0x18,0x19,0x1A,0x1B,0x1C,0x1D}
01:30:09 <oerjan> i think you may have left out a * or []
01:32:57 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: You sent a message that began with a slash.
01:33:11 <tswett> With my client, at least, you do that like this:
01:33:11 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: Interpreters are not hard usually. What language are you using?
01:33:18 <tswett> /say [something beginning with a slash]
01:33:30 <tswett> And, of course, I sent that by doing:
01:33:35 <tswett> /say /say [something beginning with a slash]
01:33:41 <tswett> You can probably figure out how I sent *that* one.
01:34:24 <Moon_> hppa, how should i handle the memory?
01:34:36 <zzo38> / With my client it is same as any other message /
01:35:27 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: Either a normal array if you're fine with finite memory as a proof-of-concept or a vector/doubly-linked list/whatever for theoretically unbounded
01:35:29 <zzo38> (The default message sending command is a space, so all messages require space at first)
01:37:16 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I use one I wrote by myself
01:37:49 <zzo38> (because I didn't like any of the others)
01:38:46 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> So people on the streets of our beautiful city usually just throw [...] <-- hm i recall my mother telling that when she was on vacation in budapest in the 80s, they washed the streets every night.
01:39:31 <zzo38> If I wrote it today I would have probably done some things differently because I use Linux now; at the time I wrote it I used Windows.
01:39:46 <hppavilion[1]> If I want to make a language that accepts ANY program as input and ANY input to pass the program and ALWAYS produces an output NEVER crashing, what data model do i use and what principals to I follow?
01:40:10 <Moon_> Something similar to Demons
01:40:45 <Moon_> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Demons)
01:42:16 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: that's not a very tall order.
01:42:19 <hppavilion[1]> I just thought of the most programmatically-hardcore thing that one could possibly do
01:42:47 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: with such a language, each program would probably simply consist of a list of instructions, with each instruction being one character. Something like that.
01:42:50 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: NOPful languages are banned, but NOPs for undefined characters are allowed
01:42:52 <Moon_> also, hppa, demons is what im trying to make a interpreter for
01:43:13 <Moon_> Demons does one char
01:43:15 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: If you call me "hp", then my client will highlight you so I know you're talking to me
01:43:27 <tswett> And then you'd just define each instruction without saying "the program crashes" at any point.
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01:43:34 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I'm talking about the principals of designing the instructions
01:43:50 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I thought that the BFy syntax part was obvious
01:43:58 <tswett> There's not much restricting you.
01:44:20 <tswett> Well, there are ways to do that where programs are *not* lists of instructions.
01:45:01 <tswett> One example is Jot: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jot
01:45:31 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Hm... I wonder if I could make one with actual syntax and backup syntax...
01:45:34 <oerjan> if i'd told irssi my credit card number, that could have got ugly.
01:45:45 <tswett> Though you could think of Jot as being a list of "meta-instructions"—instructions that you follow in order to create a program which you then run.
01:45:57 <oerjan> actually i don't have one, i have a debet card.
01:46:11 <oerjan> although i keep getting offers so maybe i should
01:46:28 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... A programming language that comes with a garbage distributor?
01:46:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: *principles
01:47:07 <tswett> That's an interesting idea.
01:47:25 <shachaf> oerjan: I started getting credit cards recently. It's great.
01:47:34 <tswett> Instead of deleting objects once all the references to them are gone, it creates objects randomly and gives you references to them.
01:47:36 <shachaf> I'm finally, like, in the system, man.
01:47:39 <tswett> And then you have to get rid of them manually.
01:47:50 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Actually, this is sounding rather interesting...
01:48:03 <shachaf> In the past when people tried to check my credit history they concluded that I didn't exist.
01:48:06 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: A language where the only data initialization operation is "Create a random hunk of data"
01:48:25 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: And you have to use comparisons and such on the data to get what you want
01:48:38 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Oooh, perhaps the 9s trick would be of use
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01:48:55 <hppavilion[1]> We have many sorting algorithms, but not as many shuffling algorithms.
01:48:58 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: yeah, I like that idea.
01:49:45 <tswett> Say, I've been putting a little bit of thought into the idea of a "serious" language inspired by Al Dente.
01:50:00 <tswett> "Serious" meaning "of interest to computer scientists", not "of interest to programmers".
01:51:06 <tswett> You can define classes, and each class defines a type of object. Classes have attributes, just like in any OOP language.
01:51:18 <tswett> But there are two crucial differences that makes this language really weird.
01:52:22 <oerjan> `addquote <zzo38> Do not throw your cigarettes end on the floor the cockroaches will have cancer
01:52:26 <HackEgo> 1277) <zzo38> Do not throw your cigarettes end on the floor the cockroaches will have cancer
01:53:08 <tswett> First: Any attribute can hold a value called... let's call it... "neutral"? Sure. All attributes start off having this value. Generally, once an attribute comes to have any other value, it can never go back to "neutral".
01:53:28 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:53:34 <oerjan> not really zzo38 specific enough
01:53:45 <Moon_> anyone willing to make a interpreter for demons? (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Demons)
01:54:08 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: I think that figuring it out would be a good task for you
01:54:28 <tswett> Values are partially ordered, and the value of a variable can only change to values that are greater. "Neutral" is always the least value.
01:54:29 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: Along with realizing that this is not a channel that does stuff for people. It's just a bunch of nerds hanging out.
01:54:57 <Moon_> well ima think on Demons samples
01:54:59 <tswett> Second: The value of a variable can change spontaneously. With most programming languages, you have to write code to make stuff happen. With this language, you have to write code to *stop* stuff from happening.
01:56:04 * hppavilion[1] expresses mindblowiness in Java, thus consuming everybody's scrollback
01:56:32 <tswett> Let me give an example of a class.
01:56:36 <tswett> This class is called Xor.
01:56:49 <tswett> It has three attributes: A, B, and C. They are all booleans.
01:57:04 <tswett> The initial state of any Xor object is, of course, {neutral, neutral, neutral}.
01:57:53 <tswett> The Xor class has the following rule: "If A, B and C are all set, then exactly zero or two of them must be false."
01:59:01 <tswett> If you just have a Xor object by itself, not connected to anything, then its attributes may spontaneously become set.
02:00:30 <tswett> But! You can tie the Xor object's attributes to things.
02:00:48 <HackEgo> U+1F6BD TOILET \ UTF-8: f0 9f 9a bd UTF-16BE: d83ddebd Decimal: 🚽 \ 🚽 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
02:00:49 <HackEgo> U+1F6BE WATER CLOSET \ UTF-8: f0 9f 9a be UTF-16BE: d83ddebe Decimal: 🚾 \ 🚾 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
02:00:55 <tswett> If you have a Xor object, then you might specify this rule on it: "A can't be anything but 'true' and B can't be anything but 'false'".
02:01:18 <tswett> This doesn't guarantee that A and B will be set to true and false, of course. It will just guarantee that they *won't* be set to anything *other* than that.
02:02:01 <tswett> In fact, if you have this Xor object, as I just described it, C might spontaneously set itself to "false". Then there's no way for A and B to both get set later on; one or the other will remain neutral forever.
02:02:17 <tswett> But you can also add this rule: "C can't be set unless A and B are set."
02:03:00 <tswett> As a result, C can't be set to anything besides "true XOR false", which is "true".
02:03:16 <tswett> So this is how you can imitate a function in this language.
02:04:08 <tswett> Have an object where the values of some variables ("output variables") are restricted based on the values of some other variables ("input variables"), and where the "output variables" can't become set until after all the "input variables" are set.
02:04:55 <lambdabot> ENVA 230050Z 23004KT 190V270 3000E -SN FEW002 BKN021 00/M01 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 28005KT
02:06:41 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Why are there two different things for that. Why. <-- the first one is actually a composting one hth
02:07:06 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Disturbing that such a thing exists, really.
02:07:41 <Moon_> ima do starting small with interpreters (Dog, here i come! woof woof woof woof growl bark bark growl growl)
02:07:43 <tswett> Of course, "input" and "output" don't mean anything to the language itself.
02:07:43 <tswett> You can have two inputs tied together, or two outputs tied together, or a single input with lots of outputs tied to it, or ...
02:08:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's very organic hth
02:08:41 <oerjan> also, where did spring go
02:09:40 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> @metar HELL <-- technically, ENVA is within walking distance of Hell hth
02:11:21 <oerjan> tswett: it will of course be NP-complete whether it's possible for all variables to get set.
02:11:51 <oerjan> or for one particular to get set, as well.
02:12:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: NP-complete? How would you check a solution?
02:13:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it would consist of a set of values for the variables and the order they get set in
02:14:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Decision problems can't be NP-complete AFAICT because there are only 2 possible solutions... If it wasn't possible to check it in polynomial time, it wouldn't be in NP, and if it is possible, then it's O(2k) where k is the time
02:14:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um NP-complete problems _are_ decision problems.
02:14:54 <oerjan> NP-hard ones need not be
02:17:05 <oerjan> anyway, the ability to create rules that restrict what order variables can be set means you also need the order of setting to check. without those rules, it would be simpler and just the value assignments would suffice (but still NP-complete)
02:17:32 <oerjan> also, if it were possible to _unset_ variables again, this would probably be PSPACE-complete.
02:18:17 <oerjan> and i'm of course assuming a finite set of variables with a finite set of possible values. otherwise it can probably be TC.
02:19:37 * oerjan is really just saying "trivial" things here, once you know the CT basics
02:19:46 <Moon_> hp ima do starting small with interpreters (Dog, here i come! woof woof woof woof growl bark bark growl growl)
02:20:35 <oerjan> that reminds me of DupDog.
02:21:15 <Moon_> p.s. that prints 'Baa'
02:21:40 <Moon_> im making the proof of concept
02:24:11 <Moon_> i forgot how to compare strings in C++, isn't it native in C++11?
02:28:46 * oerjan appreciates people using C++ as that means that cannot possibly expect him to help.
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02:29:13 <oerjan> . o O ( maybe i'm overdoing this )
02:31:47 <zzo38> At least in C you can use strcmp
02:32:02 <zzo38> It might be usable in C++ as well but I don't know what is the "proper" way to do it in C++
02:35:36 <HackEgo> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
02:38:09 <shachaf> i mean that that definition is too good
02:38:36 <Moon_> http://pastebin.com/DXtcpvpC wont work right, compile it for yourself, idk
02:38:42 <Moon_> its giving the wrong info
02:38:49 <Moon_> any help is appriciated
02:41:14 <oerjan> does compare just test for equality, or does it give less than/greater than?
02:42:01 <Moon_> oh i see what i did
02:42:14 <Moon_> i forgot to compare the return value *facedesk*
02:43:12 <oerjan> also, i suspect it should be >= 54
02:43:41 * oerjan contradicts himself too much today
02:44:08 <shachaf> you should try writing HList in C++
02:47:49 <Moon_> for those who wana try my mini lang: http://pastebin.com/Hs6fzpLj
02:47:51 <shachaf> everything has to be recursive functions
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03:02:16 <Moon_> emptyness, i has question
03:06:44 <Moon_> what do you think of my first time project?
03:08:14 <oerjan> we have an esolang Deadfish that is almost as simple, and it's popular for writing interpreters in _other_ esolangs in.
03:08:34 <oerjan> *in other esolangs for
03:08:51 <Moon_> im adding multivariableness
03:18:05 <Moon_> oerjan, are you gonna yell at me over the character table? ;-;
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03:28:26 <Moon_> http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157740.msg6952255#msg6952255
03:28:32 <Moon_> is why i said that
03:30:53 <oerjan> Moon_: um, shouldn't that be '\n'
03:31:58 <oerjan> not sure how '/n' would even compile
03:32:31 <oerjan> http://pastebin.com/Hs6fzpLj has '/n' in it.
03:33:21 <Moon_> hp, i followed your advice and made my first experimental interpreter: http://pastebin.com/Hi2EkAzU
03:34:29 <Moon_> it has 256 possible counters
03:34:56 <Moon_> im lazy and forgetful, and for PoC, bah efficiency
03:35:00 <oerjan> Moon_: i suggest you check what happens if you try to print a newline.
03:35:25 <oerjan> i haven't tested, but that '/n' freaks me out.
03:35:54 <oerjan> i don't understand why it's even allowed as a char literal.
03:36:05 <Moon_> its the newline code
03:37:32 <Moon_> the / dissapears at '/n'
03:45:44 <oerjan> sheesh, just today i noticed they'd started removing the winter gravel from the roads around here. and now it's snowing again.
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03:45:55 <lambdabot> ENVA 230150Z 24011KT 9999 VCSH FEW006 SCT014TCU BKN019 01/M02 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 25011KT
03:46:20 <oerjan> oh well, presumably it'll melt in daytime.
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03:48:56 <hppavilion[1]> A golfing programming language where instructions are the names of fictional persons
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04:04:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ghost: not found
04:10:05 * oerjan quietly ties hppavilion[1]'s shoelaces together
04:10:25 * oerjan then moves just beyond reach
04:11:06 <hppavilion[1]> ..................................................-_-
04:11:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: host: not found
04:11:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: most: not found
04:11:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: toast: not found
04:12:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: post: not found
04:12:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: roast: not found
04:12:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: boast: not found
04:20:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: grossed: not found
04:26:55 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I looked into eden of the east. The Wikipedia overview doesn't seem to be related at all, so I suppose it's possible I found the wrong anime (which would be weird, given the name)
04:34:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: coast: not found
04:36:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: roast: not found
04:42:10 <hppavilion[1]> NEW RULE: Any HackEgo commands that are tried that don't work (even as the result of a typo) must be implemented.
04:52:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /bin/goodluck: No such file or directory
04:55:34 <oerjan> `.. let's see how that goes.
04:55:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ..: cannot execute: Is a directory
04:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> fibo_p+1 = 0 is conjectured to always yield prime numbers for prime p
04:59:49 <oerjan> your notation is confusing
05:00:37 <oerjan> do you mean fib(p+1) `mod` p == 0 ?
05:04:14 <oerjan> > let fib=1:2:zipWith(+)fib(tail fib) in elemIndices 0 $ zipWith mod fib [1..]
05:04:15 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,6,12,16,22,36,42,46,52,66,72,82,96,102,106,112,126,136,156,162,166,17...
05:04:51 <\oren\> there should be a corresponfding concept of "improbable prime"
05:04:53 <oerjan> > let fib=1:2:zipWith(+)fib(tail fib) in (+1) <$> elemIndices 0 $ zipWith mod fib [1..]
05:04:54 <lambdabot> No instance for (Num [Int]) arising from a use of ‘+’
05:04:54 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘(<$>)’, namely ‘(+ 1)’
05:04:54 <lambdabot> In the expression: (+ 1) <$> elemIndices 0
05:05:07 <oerjan> > let fib=1:2:zipWith(+)fib(tail fib) in (+1) <$> elemIndices 0 (zipWith mod fib [1..])
05:05:09 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,7,13,17,23,37,43,47,53,67,73,83,97,103,107,113,127,137,157,163,167,17...
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05:05:28 <oerjan> well it's definitely not _all_ primes
05:06:49 <oerjan> a priori it could have been.
05:07:46 <\oren\> an improbable prime is anumber generated in such a way that it is possibly a prime but less likely than if you picked a number at random
05:07:50 <hppavilion[1]> "Politician Primes" are primes divisible by integers i : self > i > 1
05:09:44 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Wait, doesn't that make all primes improbable if you choose the right algorithm?
05:11:16 <\oren\> but usually these terms apply to very large numbers
05:13:58 <hppavilion[1]> Could someone factor 649567105277837809 for me real quick?
05:15:28 <zzo38> Why do you need the factors?
05:15:59 <j-bot> FireFly: 797003653 815011453
05:16:13 <j-bot> FireFly: 797003653 815011453
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05:17:36 <hppavilion[1]> MATH+PHYSICS YO MAMA JOKE INCOMING: Yo mama so fat, her gravity makes the graph of pi(x) slope downward
05:18:23 <FireFly> <\oren\> an improbable prime is anumber generated in such a way that it is possibly a prime but less likely than if you picked a number at random ← so e.g. an even number?
05:18:48 <hppavilion[1]> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/HighlyCompositeNumber.html
05:18:54 <FireFly> It's so improbable the probability approaches 0, even
05:19:44 <hppavilion[1]> So pi++(x) is the difference of the primes below it and the HCNs below it. PROBLEM: Does pi++(x) ever slope downwards?
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05:32:44 <myname> yo mama's so fat, the ratio between her circumference and her diameter is 4
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05:48:10 <oerjan> myname: is that even possible for a convex figure?
05:50:42 <myname> depends on how you define diameter
05:51:23 <oerjan> i'd define it as the supremum of distance between pairs of points in the figure
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06:39:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: learnyouahaskell: not found
06:49:38 <HackEgo> Augmented Backus-Naur Form? ¯\(°_o)/¯
06:51:00 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn ABNF/Augmented Backus-Naur Form, an update on the popular Backus-Naur Form programming language, introduces support for "Augmented Production", e.g. `foo +::= bar`
06:51:38 <myname> how is that different to foo ::= foo bar?
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06:53:59 <zzo38> If it is not different then it is just an abbreviation, but I don't know what it is.
06:54:45 <hppavilion[1]> myname: You'll notice that it refers to BNF as a "Programming Language"
06:55:13 <hppavilion[1]> Is there an alternative to BNF that uses composition of primitive grammar rules?
07:00:38 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn ABNF/Augmented Backus-Naur Form, an update on the popular Backus-Naur Form programming language, introduces support for "Augmented Production", e.g. `foo +::= bar`. The older `::=` syntax will continue to be supported for orthogonal-compatibility purposes.
07:02:08 <oerjan> . o O ( Demented Backus-Naur form )
07:03:56 <oerjan> lens is still missing a few things, i see
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07:16:21 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] no, i said it was missing.
07:17:01 <dr_fizzie> oerjan: What exactly is the HackEgo wikilink?
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07:17:39 <fizzie> (A day or so of that is probably plenty.)
07:20:22 <oerjan> as in, there were no announcements for recent edits
07:20:59 <fizzie> I was thinking hyperlinks.
07:21:21 <fizzie> Yeah, that's plausible. It's pretty brittle.
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07:43:24 <fizzie> Huh. The three-finger-tap middle button emulation has stopped working, I can't paste the magic commands to fix it.
07:45:07 <fizzie> Oh, right, screen. Why don't I ever remember that.
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07:50:30 <Sgeo_> With floating point addition, a+b, if b is less than half of the next representable number after a, then it's = a, right? Else, it's higher than a?
07:50:35 <Sgeo_> What about when a = MAX_FLOAT?
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09:43:04 <impomatic> int-e: thanks, I've fixed that. (but I need to check again).
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13:30:20 <boily> time for xenialification.
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14:16:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Evil]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46809&oldid=46715 * LegionMammal978 * (+1) /* Commands */
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14:34:02 <impomatic> int-e: I'm going to flip the true / false values. The doc I got true = 0x00 / false = 0xFF from is wrong.
14:34:46 <int-e> impomatic: oh didn't see that.
14:37:02 <impomatic> Every other word is tested / working. I botched U< by making a last minute change.
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14:42:15 <\oren\> which language has negative numbers written like _1 instead of -1?
14:43:37 * gamemanj immediately resolves to create a language with that feature just to add ambiguity
15:01:46 <b_jonas> \oren\: older APL-likes have negative numbers written with an overbar before the number instead.
15:02:55 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think some punch-card based languages actually put the overbar on the same column as the number
15:03:13 <b_jonas> or maybe it was a minus sign rather than an overbar
15:03:28 <b_jonas> for when the minus sign is just column 11
15:04:15 <b_jonas> nah, I probably misremember that punch card part, because I can't find it in http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/cardint.htm
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15:21:28 <boily> impellomatic, int-ello, he\\oren\, b_jónapotkívánokas
15:21:50 * boily gamellomanjies gamemanj
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16:11:37 <boily> so 16 ounces in a pound, but 20 ounces in a pint. yay.
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16:45:59 <Moon_> http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157749.0 , im still learning to make interpreters
16:55:57 <int-e> `learn Corium is the material that a nuclear reactor's core dump is made of.
16:56:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'corium': Corium is the material that a nuclear reactor's core dump is made of.
16:56:29 <int-e> (it's funny because it's true, cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corium_%28nuclear_reactor%29 )
17:00:27 <boily> I thought it was a simple pun (0.85 shachafs), but it's true. tmyk.
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17:03:28 <HackEgo> The Moon is an unprovable celestial object that is not very retroreflectorey.
17:03:53 <Moon_> `learn moon is a person, not an object
17:03:58 <HackEgo> Relearned 'moon': moon is a person, not an object
17:04:13 <HackEgo> moon is a person, not an object
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17:12:15 <HackEgo> moon is a person, not an object
17:20:33 <boily> `le/rn moon/Moon is a person, not an unretroreflectorey object.
17:21:30 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in Mexico!
17:21:45 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:22:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: <command>: not found
17:22:48 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ (* \ 99 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ply-3.8.tar.gz \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ secret.txt \ share \ src \ things_with_hg_in_them_in_
17:23:30 <boily> Moon_: you should peruse the PDF in the topic ↑
17:23:44 <boily> (it has things! and stuff! and explanations!)
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17:24:43 <Moon_> someone wrote that they recommend hax0ring it, so that what ill do
17:25:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: del: not found
17:25:13 <HackEgo> rm: missing operand \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
17:25:20 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- 'h' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
17:25:28 <HackEgo> Usage: rm [OPTION]... FILE... \ Remove (unlink) the FILE(s). \ \ -f, --force ignore nonexistent files, never prompt \ -i prompt before every removal \ -I prompt once before removing more than three files, or \ when removing recursively. Less intrusive than -i, \
17:25:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
17:26:01 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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17:27:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: path: not found
17:27:53 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `lib': Is a directory
17:28:15 <Moon_> we stil have reverts to work on if i manage to break it
17:29:26 <HackEgo> Vim: Warning: Output is not to a terminal \ [1;24r[?25h[?8c[?25h[?0c[27m[24m[0m[H[J[?25l[?1c[24;1H"secret.txt" 5 lines, 190 characters[1;1H/proc/sys/net/ipv4/ipfrag_secret_interval
17:29:34 <HackEgo> Warning: unknown mime-type for "secret.txt" -- using "application/octet-stream" \ Error: no "edit" mailcap rules found for type "application/octet-stream"
17:29:34 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ (* \ 99 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ply-3.8.tar.gz \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ secret.txt \ share \ src \ things_with_hg_in_them_in_
17:30:02 <gamemanj> interactive programs + that bot == disaster
17:30:30 <HackEgo> Vim: Warning: Output is not to a terminal \ [1;24r[?25h[?8c[?25h[?0c[27m[24m[0m[H[J[?25l[?1c[24;1H"secret.txt" [readonly] 5 lines, 190 characters[1;1H/proc/sys/net/ipv4/ipfrag_secret_interval
17:30:51 <gamemanj> If you want to view a file, it's easier just to browse the mercurial repository
17:30:51 <Moon_> how do i found out what is in secret.txt
17:30:52 <gamemanj> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi
17:31:05 <gamemanj> For short files, just do this:
17:31:11 <HackEgo> /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ipfrag_secret_interval \ /proc/sys/net/ipv6/ip6frag_secret_interval \ /hackenv/secret.txt \ /usr/share/man/man3/key_setsecret.3.gz \ /usr/share/man/man3/key_secretkey_is_set.3.gz
17:33:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: new: not found
17:33:53 <gamemanj> Moon_, stop trying interactive commands
17:34:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
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17:36:19 <Moon_> `echo i can still echo at you
17:37:10 <int-e> fungot: can *you* echo?
17:39:06 <gamemanj> ^echo Fill in this: Echo, ______, _____.
17:39:06 <fungot> Fill in this: Echo, ______, _____.
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17:42:59 <int-e> Echo, fungot, moon_.
17:42:59 <fungot> int-e: ( what i meant) and extra return va' te fnord com a sua lingua fnord!"
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18:00:08 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `secret.txt': No such file or directory
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18:08:34 <gamemanj> `echo ^echo `echo ^echo Hello World
18:08:35 <HackEgo> ^echo `echo ^echo Hello World
18:13:31 <fizzie> There's an ignore list, sorry.
18:13:33 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot)!
18:13:43 <fizzie> A very historical one, but still.
18:15:39 <gamemanj> define and the fact that HackEgo is a whole VM controllable via bot means that botloops are rather easy to set up without one
18:17:39 <gamemanj> ^define gamemanj-ab bf ++++++++[>++++>++++++++++<<-]++++++++++>>---><<<.>>><[->+>+<<]>+++.++.---------.+++++++++++++.---------.++++++.------------.<<.>>.------.++++++++++++.--------.++++++++.------------.+++++++++++++.----.<<.>>----------------.+++++++.+++++++++++.++++.--------.-------.<<.>>+.+++.+++++++++++++++.-------------------.<<<.>>>
18:18:40 <gamemanj> ok, said longshot was a complete failure
18:25:35 <rdococ> really? right now it's grey
18:31:16 <gamemanj> I just looked out and tried to see the sky.
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18:32:13 <gamemanj> Note to future self. Take out insurance on the usability of my eyes. It'll probably pay up pretty quickly if these days keep up.
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18:34:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Headache]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46810&oldid=45034 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* Links */
18:34:50 <myname> is headache like a mild version of bf?
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18:35:36 <gamemanj> Oh, BTW, if this client suddenly disappears anytime before 9 PM in a way that suggests a crash, blame hwmon0 not exposing any fans so I can't crank them up to maximum. So the system might just overheat. I hate summer.
18:36:31 <gamemanj> Though, TBH, they might be on maximum. I have no idea. Is there a way to just, IDK, hibernate through the warmer months?
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19:50:06 <gamemanj> Good news, this sudden disconnection brought to you by Network Malfunction (not Thermal Overheating)
19:53:08 <int-e> gamemanj: maybe the network equipment overheated
19:53:45 <gamemanj> No, the network equipment isn't that bad - it doesn't have a seemingly-ineffective fan.
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19:54:40 <int-e> I was trying to come up with the best of two worlds (thermal failure, network failure, why not have them both...)
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19:55:31 <gamemanj> ...that's even worse. Anyway, future unintentional network difficulties should not continue. Intentional ones, on the part of certain safety-overobsessed people, will continue.
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20:31:37 <impomatic> Stack Exchange is annoying. Someone asks a question and most responses are 1) suggestions how to ask the question better, 2) answers that are obviously not what's required but the person answering spotted a loophole in the question and answered based on that, 3) someone who doesn't understand the question Googled and answered with something irrelevant :-(
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20:38:27 <int-e> you had me convinced after "Stack Exchange is annoying."
20:41:44 <impomatic> int-e: they're discussing how to count the size of Box-256 solutions here http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/77795/box-256-assembly-big-square-ii and here http://meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/9012/how-to-score-box-256-answers
20:44:17 <impomatic> I think it's tending towards "count the lines with instructions, but not lines which are only data" in which case every challenge would be won by the same 3 lines of code by just varying the data.
20:45:37 <int-e> I think the LOC output by the executable is just fine... and not counting data would be stupid
20:45:58 <int-e> (if you enter instructions as bytes, do they count?)
20:47:50 <impomatic> int-e: even that was under discussion!
20:48:43 <int-e> impomatic: you know this xkcd, don't you: http://xkcd.com/386/
20:48:50 <gamemanj> Step 1, write interpreter for language more trivial than problem, step 2, include program that does anything required, step 3, win.
20:49:52 * impomatic is often guilty of staying up late because someone's wrong on the Internet :-D
20:49:54 <int-e> btw I've wondered how big a universal box-256 program would be, i.e. one that enumerates all possible screen configurations...
20:50:29 <int-e> (it's not as easy as it could be because you can't read from the screen)
20:50:51 <int-e> and of course it's of purely theoretical value
21:02:48 <impomatic> int-e: 0xA LOC for a universal box-256
21:03:20 <impomatic> Let me just calculate how long it will run for!
21:04:30 <shachaf> Oh, they added new targets to box-256
21:04:51 <impomatic> shachaf: and you can create your own puzzles :-)
21:05:32 <shachaf> Oh, and you can turn your solution into a URL.
21:05:46 <shachaf> And it shows the palette on the main page. TG
21:06:32 <shachaf> Oh, and there are new instructions.
21:07:26 <impomatic> shachaf: the URL thing shares the target, not your code (I think)
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21:23:55 <lambdabot> oerjan said 14h 7m 33s ago: no, i said it was missing.
21:24:31 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: ...
21:24:40 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: you are being silly, right?
21:24:56 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: No, I was making a point about the stupidity of e-notation
21:25:04 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: so you are being silly.
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21:25:33 <impomatic> Sorry, I meant 3E+608 years (or 3*10^608 years)
21:25:43 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: No, I was making a deep point about the futility of human existence and the almost insurmountable bay of understanding we must cross to communicate
21:26:12 <hppavilion[1]> impomatic: Yes, I got that. But the e is usually lowercase
21:26:50 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( Blackboard bold should be a font, not individual characters )
21:29:01 <HackEgo> Augmented Backus-Naur Form, an update on the popular Backus-Naur Form programming language, introduces support for "Augmented Production", e.g. `foo +::= bar`. The older `::=` syntax will continue to be supported for orthogonal-compatibility purposes.
21:29:05 <hppavilion[1]> ^ My favourite wisdom entry to date out of the ones I've created
21:47:09 <\oren\> 𝔸𝔹ℂ𝔻𝔼𝔽𝔾ℍ𝕀𝕁𝕂𝕃𝕄ℕ𝕆ℙℚℝ𝕊𝕋𝕌𝕍𝕎𝕏𝕐ℤ
21:47:12 <\oren\> 𝕒𝕓𝕔𝕕𝕖𝕗𝕘𝕙𝕚𝕛𝕜𝕝𝕞𝕟𝕠𝕡𝕢𝕣𝕤𝕥𝕦𝕧𝕨𝕩𝕪𝕫
21:47:50 <impomatic> int-e: http://pastebin.com/44PuPrKB
21:50:21 <impomatic> I can solve every BOX-256 problem in ten lines of code. The only problem is it will take 3*10^608 years.
21:50:54 <hppavilion[1]> impomatic: How could you possibly solve an arbitrary problem in 10 lines of code?
21:51:03 <hppavilion[1]> impomatic: Or are ALL the problems solvable in 10 lines?
21:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> impomatic, cycling through every possible framebuffer?
21:51:30 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: each encodes one instruction or 4 bytes of data, your choice
21:51:37 <\oren\> Unicode contains BB greek letter I havent done them yet though
21:51:41 <impomatic> Yes, cycling through every possible solution
21:52:46 <impomatic> By the way, some of my short solutions store 32 bits per line of code or use RLE compression.
21:52:49 <\oren\> instead of e notation you can use ⏨ like 3.67⏨3
21:53:18 <impomatic> That unicode character doesn't display here
21:53:21 <HackEgo> U+23E8 DECIMAL EXPONENT SYMBOL \ UTF-8: e2 8f a8 UTF-16BE: 23e8 Decimal: ⏨ \ ⏨ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
21:53:33 <\oren\> impomatic: you need a better font
21:53:51 <\oren\> git has a terrible interface
21:54:07 <hppavilion[1]> impomatic: We recommend neoletters. It totally has nothing to do with nespotism.
21:57:25 <zzo38> It is sometimes said that Fossil is better for cathedral-style and git is good for bazaar-style, although you can see what you like. (I find fossil is easier to set up and use too)
21:57:48 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: What are bazaar and cathedral? I have not heard such terms before.
21:58:30 <gamemanj> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar
21:59:03 <\oren\> but usually I just use datestamped folders
22:02:19 <gamemanj> hmm... if you're using datestamped folders, maybe tar them all up then gzip the result
22:02:44 <\oren\> I do that when it gets too big (which usually never happens)
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22:05:00 <impomatic> int-e: not everyone agrees unfortunately :-(
22:05:58 <int-e> impomatic: I didn't expect this to be accepted :P
22:06:24 <int-e> it was really more of an intellectual challenge, especially since it's very likely that we can do better.
22:06:52 <impomatic> It appears the person who asked the question will declare anyone who comes up with a 2-3 instruction (+24 lines of data) answer the winner.
22:06:52 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:07:19 <int-e> oh, that discussion...
22:07:32 <int-e> I could hardly care less. See that xkcd comic.
22:07:54 <impomatic> No-one suggested removing the JMP @00 yet (and arranging the data so the first byte in each line is an invalid opcode)
22:08:27 <int-e> impomatic: eww that will be tricky to pull off.
22:08:53 <int-e> (I did think of that)
22:08:55 <impomatic> No, not tricky. Everything above about 0x90 is an invalid opcode.
22:09:13 <int-e> yes, tricky, because the addressing into the array becomes harder.
22:09:49 <int-e> (and you cannot afford to use one byte per pixel)
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22:15:00 <impomatic> int-e: 2 instruction solution by crazy scoring method http://pastebin.com/XgmuRhtE
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22:16:31 <int-e> impomatic: oh, I'm still discussing the wrong problem
22:17:06 <int-e> I really don't care for that scoring method, nor the discussion about it. I do care about the enumeration of all possible screen configurations.
22:18:28 <int-e> impomatic: but clearly you should suggest a 1 line solution whose first instruction is a MOV @05 @04 0FC
22:18:33 <int-e> just to drive the point home.
22:18:52 <int-e> (you can even have a proper loop again)
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22:33:17 <int-e> impomatic: proof of concept: http://sprunge.us/IfWF (pixel data goes to 00C ff.)
22:35:24 -!- boily has joined.
22:35:56 <int-e> (don't give me credit for that)
22:38:12 <impomatic> I've given you credit for prompting me to code the universal solution https://www.reddit.com/r/box256/comments/4g5e6r/universal_box256_solution_solves_all_challenges/
22:40:11 <boily> oh well. still no italics.
22:41:54 <lambda-11235> If anyone's interested in a simple, esoteric, badly documented, typed language with bad error reporting here it is https://github.com/lambda-11235/ttyped.
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22:42:43 <lambda-11235> It also doesn't actually run/compile code. It only type checks it.
22:42:48 <boily> hllabda-11235! did you put it on the Wiki?
22:43:02 <boily> s/hllabda/hellambda/
22:43:31 <boily> . o O ( there definitely is somethig wrong with font tracking and kerning since that upgrade... )
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22:52:13 <zzo38> I don't know; I only use Fossil (which is still usable for bazaar, although it is said that it works better for cathedral). I would hope other people can know! Alternatively (or in addition), you can look up the information and documentation of SVN and Hg and whatever, and figure out by yourself.
22:56:39 <zzo38> Marcela_Gandara: Please try a different channel for Spanish
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23:01:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ttyped]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46811 * 47.208.113.50 * (+901) Created page with "TType is a simple typed language, consisting of only function definitions. It is '''losely''' based on System F. It consists entirely of a series of function definitions. Each..."
23:02:12 <hppavilion[1]> No somos un canal de habla española. Aquí nadie habla española. Por favor, tratar de encontrar manualmente el canal que estaba buscando. Nosotros no podemos ayudar.
23:03:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ttyped]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46812&oldid=46811 * 47.208.113.50 * (+62)
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23:14:50 -!- oerjan has set topic: Recommended by pi out of 5 doctors! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ho Chi Minh City (not Saigon).
23:18:56 <oerjan> <boily> @wn xenial <-- bhoily. it's like denial but more alien hth
23:20:02 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should write a VCS in an esolang. I recommend that said esolang is 2Ducks
23:20:35 <hppavilion[1]> There would be an entire command meaning "I don't know how to fix this bug, so retrieve a future revision in which it is fixed"
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23:37:37 <oerjan> whoever wrote freenode's /list implementation needs a whack upside the head. i did _not_ ask for all channels.
23:39:00 <oerjan> (trying vainly to find a spanish channel other than #canaima-social)
23:39:56 <int-e> there is a ##espanol
23:42:26 <oerjan> int-e: right i found that.
23:42:51 <oerjan> Marcela_Gandara: you might try to ask in ##espanol. it is not a social channel but they should understand you at least.
23:43:17 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:43:28 <int-e> excellent timing :-(
23:43:35 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
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23:45:09 <oerjan> Marcela_Gandara: i am tired of this, sorry.
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23:46:52 <oerjan> Marcela_Gandara: you might try to ask in ##espanol. it is not a social channel but they should understand you at least.
23:47:48 <oerjan> Marcela Gandara: usted puede tratar de preguntar en ##espanol. no es un canal social, sino que se debe entender por lo menos.
23:56:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * IAM * New user account
00:03:23 <oerjan> <gamemanj> ^echo Fill in this: Echo, ______, _____. <-- wait did he break ^echo
00:03:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46813 * IAM * (+129) Created page with "Hello there! I'm planning to make a programming language called "Character For You." I'll link to it once I make the page for it."
00:04:23 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
00:06:22 <oerjan> ^def echo bf ,[.>,]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.>]
00:10:02 <HackEgo> cake/The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
00:17:31 <boily> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4456686320_df32d86479_o.jpg ?
00:17:56 <zzo38> Why did they make comments like /* ... */ in C? Now it interferes with dividing by the value read by pointer (although you can easily work-around). C++ style does not have that problem.
00:23:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: C++ style also has a problem
00:23:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: it interferes with trying to put a comment (a normal one like the prophets K&R intended, not one of the new style minus-minus or percent sign ones) after a division.
00:26:31 <Sgeo_> shachaf, did they change the appearance of drones in Prismata?
00:26:33 <zzo38> Yes it has that, although you will usually want to add at least one space before the comment in such case, or to put whatever you want to divide by immediately afterward on the same line anyways
00:26:52 <Sgeo_> Since whatever I'm used to
00:26:59 <Sgeo_> Or are there skins or something?
00:27:09 <Sgeo_> This game I'm watching eems to have Canadian drones
00:27:11 <shachaf> Oh, you can get your own drone appearance or something.
00:27:35 <Sgeo_> I should do this new tutorial thing
00:27:47 <Sgeo_> Is there a native client these days? I should grab it
00:28:11 <shachaf> I think it won't let me challenge you because you're in a game.
00:29:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, unless what I wanted to put in a comment was the real number I'm supposed to be dividing with, but I changed it to a different number for a quick debugging test.
00:30:06 * Sgeo_ looks for the Windows client
00:30:10 <Sgeo_> I'm convinced it exists
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00:30:51 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes there is that case.
00:31:09 <zzo38> In this case you can also work-around by putting the comment afterward instead of before.
00:31:18 <Sgeo_> shachaf, much more interested in doing the tutorial campaign than being defeated by you for a millionth time
00:31:18 <Sgeo_> http://blog.prismata.net/2016/03/10/catch-an-early-preview-of-the-prismata-desktop-build/
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00:32:36 <Sgeo_> The FAQ has a link to the Windows client
00:32:42 <Sgeo_> http://blog.prismata.net/2016/03/14/prismata-alpha-faq/
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00:39:50 <Sgeo_> Eww it uses Adobe AIR
00:41:46 <Sgeo_> Google login is only available in the web version of Prismata
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00:43:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46814&oldid=46813 * IAM * (-117) Replaced content with "Hello there!"
00:44:42 <Sgeo_> At least I'm able to add a password to my account, and that lets me log in
00:54:01 <\oren\> MUHUHAHAHAHAH! I have ANNIHILATED the ants once and for all!
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01:14:50 <boily> HE\\OREN\! MWAH AH AH AH AH!
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01:29:46 <\oren\> the great war, which we have waged with the formican menace since time immemorial, has finally been won!
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01:34:30 <boily> ant problems in your apartment/house/place of residence?
01:37:43 <hppavilion[1]> The UC1H (United Committee of 1337 H4x0r5, which is actually programmers with a facetious name) or something should get world governments to legally define "Free Software"
01:38:07 <hppavilion[1]> Because I just stumbled across this fucking bullshit: http://www.aptana.com/
01:38:31 <hppavilion[1]> Which looks good, but I was suspicious. So I did some digging and found this: http://www.aptana.com/legal/apl.html
01:38:51 <hppavilion[1]> tl;dr, it claims to be FOSS, but you aren't allowed to redistribute it
01:40:11 <zzo38> Yes so it is dual-licensed
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01:40:29 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Does that mean BOTH licenses apply or that one or the other applies, depending on what you choose?
01:40:42 <hppavilion[1]> http://www.aptana.com/legal.html is making things confusing
01:41:05 <hppavilion[1]> Which implies that it's the GPL EXCEPT for their special exception
01:41:49 <hppavilion[1]> My understanding is that you can just GPL it if you like
01:42:45 <zzo38> It is a GPL Section 7 Exception, which means it is still GPL
01:43:29 <hppavilion[1]> What I really want in a license is the ability to do whatever the hell I want with software, except for selling the code itself and passing it off as my own or changing the license to one that permits such a thing, or that permits switching to a license that permits such a thing, etc..
01:44:24 <zzo38> I just to make software as public domain, do whatever you want
01:44:41 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: But that allows people to sell your code as if it was theirs, does it not
01:45:36 <zzo38> If people want to sell copies that is fine with me
01:45:36 <hppavilion[1]> OK, corollary, I want to be able to include the software as a portion of proprietary software if I so desire, as long as it does not form the primary bulk of the software.
01:47:15 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, great. I settled on Aptana, and now it won't install because of some dependency regarding nodejs
01:47:40 <hppavilion[1]> Worst kind of dependency error is one that you already have fulfilled that the software doesn't check for
01:48:24 <hppavilion[1]> Modal Logic Programming seems like a useful part of AI
01:48:31 <zzo38> Maybe it is the wrong version of Node.js?
01:49:21 <hppavilion[1]> #learn fact ::- #need (#knows self (fact | ~fact))
01:49:57 <hppavilion[1]> Where need is from the "want-need fulfillment logic" and #knows is from epistemic logic. Also, the open world assumption is used.
01:50:32 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, it might be more like #learn fact ::- #need (#knows self fact | #knows self ~fact)
01:51:34 <hppavilion[1]> One thing that makes hppavilion[1] happy: Trying a !bang that he has never used before or seen referenced with duck duck go and having it work immediately
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02:44:06 <HackEgo> fyp: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:57:07 <boily> fungot: do you know about condut0r?
02:57:07 <fungot> boily: ihope is that guy that's *really* useless. still, i'm much faster at most things
02:58:42 <oerjan> . o O ( fungot-tswett death match )
02:58:42 <fungot> oerjan: that was on the wrong trail. the actual global instruction requires three bytes, i believe, which i don't
03:05:38 <oerjan> because ihope127 is his old nick
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03:15:08 <Sgeo_> "In general, absorb is the strongest, most busted mechanic in the game, and you want to be taking advantage of it as often as possible." - Will Ma, Lunarch Studios Founder
03:16:15 <shachaf> But pure-green strategies can be effective too.
03:17:48 <shachaf> If you spend more resources on getting a unit that can absorb X than your opponent needs to spend to generate X damage per turn, then presumably you're worse off.
03:18:35 <shachaf> By resources I'm including time, of course. Time is the main resource, really.
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04:20:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46815&oldid=46362 * 104.163.150.67 * (+29) bf.vim
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05:00:31 <zzo38> The New Black {B} Instant ;; Target black spell or black permanent is now black.
05:01:39 <shachaf> zzo38: If a spell or permanent is owned or controlled by someone whose last name is Black, does it count as black?
05:02:16 <zzo38> shachaf: The name of the players is irrelevant.
05:02:32 <shachaf> But isn't it a Black permanent if it's owned by Black?
05:02:41 <zzo38> (As far as the game is concerned players have no names as far as I know.)
05:03:12 <shachaf> I think players only have names starting with the letters A and N.
05:03:20 <zzo38> shachaf: I think not; players can have no names, subtypes, etc
05:06:41 <zzo38> A name is something only an object has, in Magic: the Gathering.
05:07:59 <zzo38> Players are not objects.
05:08:14 <shachaf> But you can attach an enchantment to a player.
05:08:15 <zzo38> And therefore players don't belong in any zone.
05:08:28 <zzo38> Yes; permanents can be attached to players or objects.
05:08:34 <zzo38> Targets can be players, objects, or zones.
05:35:59 <zzo38> The card "The New Black" that I described is nearly worthless, but does have some uses.
05:36:44 <zzo38> Such as to affect an object that temporarily changed color, or to affect a multicolor object.
05:37:27 <zzo38> Or with "heroic" abilities.
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06:32:00 <zzo38> What grid is that?
06:36:26 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... I wonder if I could hook a neural network together with a parser to make a smartparser?
06:37:45 <zzo38> Do you mean to try to parse things that won't parse?
06:38:19 <zzo38> Or to parse the output of the neural network? That might also not parse, so same problem either way.
06:38:45 <zzo38> Or do you want to, if it doesn't parse, try the neural network until it does parse?
06:38:56 <zzo38> I don't know what you mean exactly.
06:39:11 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: No, I mean making a parser with a neural network. You feed the network characters and it produces an AST... somehow... I guess?
06:39:33 <zzo38> I don't know much about neural networks, so I cannot answer that question.
06:40:10 <zzo38> But if you can figure out how to make something out of that, then you can try!
06:40:34 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: The basics are you give it data and it spits out more data (usually all data is floats/double/whatever)
06:41:01 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: And you can tell it that these inputs should spit out these outputs, and it will adjust itself accordingly
06:43:05 <zzo38> Try something, possibly
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08:03:54 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: that's a basic feedforward neural network
08:04:12 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I was explaining the basics based on what I know
08:06:17 <\oren\> In my neural networks course I used convolutional and recurrent neural networks
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08:17:40 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: So what do you think about merging the principles of The Grid with an OS?
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09:43:09 <int-e> impomatic: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/int-e/box256/master/universal/loc_0x08 ... note the double purpose "mov" :)
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09:55:49 <int-e> or dual purpose...
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10:05:04 <int-e> impomatic: it's a bit sad that linear shift registers (modulo 256) would have a too low period with fewer than 255 bytes...
10:05:54 <int-e> err, make that 2041 bytes.
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12:02:52 <int-e> Is sound irrelevant in Doom? (looking at http://vizdoom.cs.put.edu.pl/competition-cig-2016)
12:04:14 <int-e> (it's fair, of course, because no player gets to listen... but it's still a question that nags me)
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12:23:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46816&oldid=46814 * 99.236.51.46 * (+39)
12:25:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46820&oldid=46816 * IAM * (+138)
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12:27:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46821&oldid=46820 * IAM * (+13) Well, that wasn’t correct wiki markup!
12:28:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46822&oldid=46821 * IAM * (+33) Why is there two programming languages called Gibberish?
12:29:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46823&oldid=46822 * IAM * (+0) Put them in the wrong order.
12:35:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46824&oldid=46823 * IAM * (+59) Added note about my username.
12:35:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46825&oldid=46824 * IAM * (+13) Clarified who wrote the Gibberish code.
12:38:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46826&oldid=46825 * IAM * (+173) I’m planning to design a language!
12:51:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainFunge2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46827&oldid=31850 * LegionMammal978 * (-7) formatting
12:51:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainFunge2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46828&oldid=46827 * LegionMammal978 * (+17) more formatting
12:52:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainFunge2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46829&oldid=46828 * LegionMammal978 * (-11) *facepalm*
12:53:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainFunge2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46830&oldid=46829 * LegionMammal978 * (+17) *double facepalm*
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13:00:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quine (programming language)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46831 * IAM * (+169) Well, this is a silly language.
13:02:16 -!- tromp has joined.
13:03:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46832&oldid=46796 * IAM * (+88) Well, it's easy to write a quine in this language!
13:06:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
13:08:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quine (programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46833&oldid=46831 * IAM * (+116) Somebody did basically the same thing already.
13:13:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46834&oldid=16506 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
13:14:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46835&oldid=46826 * IAM * (+70)
13:26:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Vriskanon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46836&oldid=42220 * IAM * (+106) /* jeo */ new section
13:27:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Vriskanon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46837&oldid=46836 * IAM * (+69) /* jeo */
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14:26:21 <lambdabot> CYUL 241300Z 36007KT 350V050 30SM SKC 02/M13 A3019 RMK SLP227
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14:56:45 <gamemanj> Nobody treats Type 7 as specified in the RFC anymore... except ELinks, in that it won't accept blank lines. Cue "Input Blank Line (workaround for elinks type 7 support)"
14:58:27 <boily> gamellomanj. what is type 7?
14:59:30 <gamemanj> type '7' or "search engine query", but Gopher's only other options for interactivity are terminal sessions and basic "do something on get" links, so it's more or less the Gopher version of a form submission.
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15:01:57 <boily> have you visited gopher://zzo38computer.org/ yet?
15:02:06 <lambdabot> CYYZ 241300Z 13005KT 090V160 15SM FEW110 BKN140 07/M08 A3016 RMK AC1AC6 AC TR SLP221
15:02:11 <boily> zzo38: hezzo38. your server died? content was lost? :(
15:02:28 <boily> he\\oren\. you have no right being warmer than me!
15:02:52 <boily> gamemanj: you have your own page on the gopherspace? neat!
15:08:30 <gamemanj> ...oh, great, and apparently elinks does caching, too
15:08:54 <b_jonas> gamemanj: yes, elinks caches everything, regardless if it should
15:09:03 <b_jonas> so you often have to reload
15:09:16 <gamemanj> b_jonas: which means that "perform action on get" will not work
15:09:30 <b_jonas> gamemanj: it will, if you press control-R after it
15:09:48 <b_jonas> mind you, normally you should write servers so you perform actions on POST
15:09:58 <gamemanj> b_jonas: gopher doesn't have post
15:10:11 <gamemanj> b_jonas: It has search engine queries but you need to enter something in for those
15:10:26 <gamemanj> So I'm literally going to have a link that says this:
15:10:36 <gamemanj> "Input Blank Line (Enter any text, it will be ignored)"
15:11:11 <gamemanj> well, yes, but it's still awful
15:12:02 <b_jonas> how is it awful? IRC insists on entering four parameters on USER too, and the first one has to be alphanumeric (or something like that), and two of them are ignored. I just enter USER a a a a or USER x x x x usually
15:12:57 <gamemanj> Maybe, but clients obscure that
15:13:20 <gamemanj> with this, it's a user-facing useless text field
15:13:39 <b_jonas> gamemanj: well, my solution for gopher is to use HTTP
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15:14:01 <gamemanj> b_jonas: so your solution for gopher is not to use gopher?
15:14:09 <b_jonas> that's also my solution for FTP
15:14:28 <gamemanj> and your solution for <arbitrary protocol b_jonas does not implement>?
15:15:52 <gamemanj> Oh, brilliant. It caches duplicate searches.
15:16:09 <b_jonas> gamemanj: yes, and duplicate HTTP posts too
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15:16:19 <b_jonas> so you have to press control-R
15:16:35 <gamemanj> "ELinks: It's More Efficient This Way"
15:17:13 <boily> it caches WHAT? that's insane!
15:17:32 <boily> a POST changes state on the server. you can't cache that! AAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
15:17:52 <gamemanj> boily: yes. I'm going to be busy adding a whole new subsystem on my gopher server just to work around elinks
15:18:20 <Taneb> b_jonas, your solution for FTP is to not use gopher?
15:19:05 <gamemanj> ...boily: Actually, nvm, if it's caching EVERYTHING it'll cache the executive job list
15:19:18 <gamemanj> ...boily: which means users using elinks will never be able to use the thing in the first place
15:19:51 <gamemanj> because if they try to create an instance, they'll never see the console page...
15:20:09 <gamemanj> So, in other news, ELinks is stupid
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15:21:44 <boily> and the sky is graaay ♪
15:22:39 <HackEgo> jefrite: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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15:42:00 <gamemanj> HackEgo: You mean there are other networks than freenode? Impossible!
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15:59:13 <b_jonas> gamemanj: yes, there's like a dozen others
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16:09:45 <gamemanj> Ok, I have a plan for bypassing the elinks cache. Sort of. If you press "back" you go back into cache-land...
16:09:58 <gamemanj> Basically I'm going to stick a number on the end of links.
16:10:23 <gamemanj> Completely worthless number, but the elinks cache won't ignore it.
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16:27:01 <gamemanj> I wish there was some way of identifying ELinks in particular...
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16:50:14 <int-e> oh, how did I miss that recent x86 got INTERCAL support instructions... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_Manipulation_Instruction_Sets#Parallel_bit_deposit_and_extract
16:51:47 <gamemanj> Why would the speed of bit manipulation need improving?
16:53:08 <HackEgo> ruby/Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
16:53:57 <int-e> gamemanj: well the parallel bit extraction (INTERCAL: "select") is notoriously difficult to perform... so is the interleave operation which can be performed by two parallel deposits...
16:56:23 <int-e> I don't know what precise usecases they envisioned... S-boxes in cryptography? verious search algorithms? bitfield extraction?
16:56:45 <int-e> (bitfield manipulation is actually quite a strong usecase for those operations)
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17:34:27 <\oren\> int-e: does GCC have builtins for these yet?
17:35:39 <fizzie> I think we discussed the INTERCAL-suitability of pdep/pext on-channel once.
17:36:30 <b_jonas> \oren\: in gcc, you get builtins for basically every useful non-privilaged cpu operation, unless you're using an old gcc, or unless you're on ARM and you're using gcc before gcc 5
17:37:19 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, gcc's inline assembly is powerful that it can serve as a worse fallback in case you don't yet have a builtin
17:41:33 <int-e> 2013-04-11.txt:07:24:45: <fizzie> Fiora: I'm sure pdep and pext will be well-received by the thousands (if not millions) INTERCAL implementers, for implementing SELECT and MINGLE.
17:44:47 <int-e> so that was before my return to this channel.
17:45:35 <\oren\> . o O (brb, completely revamping my half-working 6502 emulator)
17:45:59 <\oren\> or I would if I wasn't working on my font right now
17:47:42 <gamemanj> I once knew an oren who worked on a font to revamp the half-working 6502 emulator to build the Commodore 64 to operate the solenoids to close the trap to catch the fly...
17:48:30 <b_jonas> \oren\: do you support decimal mode and set the carry flag correctly when it's enabled?
17:49:26 <\oren\> b_jonas: that's what I was using bit oprtaitons for, yes. It doesn't really work because the code is too complex to debug
17:50:04 <\oren\> also because my emulator tries to work on a clock-cycle-correct level
17:50:09 <int-e> so what other cool processor extensions could I have missed, hmm
17:51:07 <int-e> I've seen the transactional memory ones... too many SSE versions...
17:51:47 <b_jonas> \oren\: do you support the crazy nondeterministic undocumented opcode whose behaviour depends on how exactly the memory chip works?
17:51:51 <\oren\> gamemanj: my font started as a font for a game I never finished, and then I made a ttf version so I could use it in a terminal, and then I realized I wanted IPA and dwarf fortess support
17:52:10 <gamemanj> ...when's the TeX version coming?
17:53:05 <\oren\> gamemanj: I can probably export the font to metafont...
17:53:48 <fizzie> "Why the Government believes that voting to remain in the European Union is the best decision for the UK."
17:53:52 <gamemanj> int-e: well, you missed the BrFu x86 extension, whose sole purpose is to find matched parenthesis in string buffers bordered by 0 bytes on either side.
17:53:54 <fizzie> Ha, we got that leaflet after all.
17:54:06 <fizzie> (Even though they're not going to let us vote.)
17:54:59 <gamemanj> int-e: There's also the Mobius extension, which treats interleaved bytes as two contiguous spaces of memory...
17:55:35 <gamemanj> ...hopefully it's clear I'm telling lies.
17:59:47 <int-e> gamemanj: Given this channel's devotion to factual accuracy, I was completely mislead by your claims.
18:00:17 <gamemanj> Hmm. I need to get a time machine. Then I can go back to the first day of April.
18:01:33 <int-e> they have to restore the vm image from deep storage.. probably some sort of tape library
18:02:02 <int-e> that's my theory, at least.
18:02:25 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
18:02:32 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
18:02:47 <HackEgo> infinitive/Infinitives are atomic verbs. They were first split in the 1940s, and the world hasn't looked back since.
18:02:55 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
18:03:16 <b_jonas> `echo zU0dIxy1RhtbmYoTJFigBQ
18:03:29 <HackEgo> The password of the month is supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
18:03:41 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is zU0dIxy1RhtbmYoTJFigBQ
18:03:45 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is zU0dIxy1RhtbmYoTJFigBQ
18:04:59 <gamemanj> `learn The password of the month is supercalifragilisticexpialidociouszU0dIxy1RhtbmYoTJFigBQ (There. Compromise.)
18:05:02 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is supercalifragilisticexpialidociouszU0dIxy1RhtbmYoTJFigBQ (There. Compromise.)
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18:20:54 <HackEgo> wisdom/ø \ wisdom/øl \ wisdom/ørjan
18:21:08 <HackEgo> ø is not going anywhere. \ Øl, øl og mere øl. \ Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
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19:13:44 <zzo38> I like the PDEP/PEXT it is the things I have wanted to be able to use
19:14:26 <zzo38> How to detect which of these features my computer supports?
19:20:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: at low level, the intel and amd manuals tell which bits in which cpuinfo words you have to examine. on a higher level, you can use the gcc builtins, or /proc/cpuinfo as a convenience interface, or the library http://www.agner.org/optimize/#asmlib
19:20:19 <fizzie> I think there are CPUID bits. Linux would expose them in /proc/cpuinfo -- I would think PDEP and PEXT correspond to the "bmi2" flag.
19:21:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: in a real program, you'd call the actual cpuinfo instruction (but only once per program and cache the info, it's an expensive instruction), whether directly or through the msvc wrapper or a library, or the higher-level gcc builtin that already does the caching and tests for a single named feature.
19:22:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: on x86_32 if you want to support old cpus, you first have to test if the cpuinfo instruction itself is supported, for which there's another instruction sequence. on x86_64 you can skip that.
19:22:58 <zzo38> I would have to do #if or #ifdef to check if it is available and to write my own implementation if not, so that it can work on non-x86 computers
19:23:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, in the case of some operations there are already higher level libraries wrapping some of this stuff
19:24:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: there are three reasons why (at low level) you have to do a cpuinfo instruction to test for (almost any) cpu feature, rather than just try the feature and see if it works: (1) for compatibility with a virtualized cpu with live migration, in which case the set of features that actually work can change and be larger than the ones actually supported to work always,
19:26:13 <b_jonas> (2) because some features require OS support to handle saving the registers at task switch correctly (although these days cpus just have those features off by default and let the OS enable it), and (3) because some features aren't deterministically testable.
19:26:42 <zzo38> I don't see bmi2 on my computer
19:26:44 <int-e> being able to ship binary packages would by my number 1...
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19:28:19 <int-e> it's fairly new, Intel added it in Haswell processors; AMD caught up last year with the Bulldozer architecture...
19:28:30 <zzo38> Yes PDEP/PEXT would be useful to compute Morton numbering, as mentioned above.
19:29:05 <int-e> Heh my work laptop actually has them...
19:30:08 <zzo38> They would also allow INTERCAL programs to run faster, also as mentioned above.
19:32:19 <zzo38> I have written a (unused) specification that you can write attributes before a declaration like ["something"(a,b,1)] or whatever that if the compiler understands it can do stuff such as replace the function if the CPU instruction set already has that function or to optimize code surrounding a call to that function or whatever, so you can avoid needing #ifdef and CPUID and so on to check if it supports it.
19:34:41 <int-e> Is there a *sane*, better option than having a function pointer to an architecture-dependent implementation of a function to make such tricks portable (within x86_64, say)?
19:35:09 <int-e> (the insane ideas range from patching call addresses to actual runtime code generation)
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19:35:55 <int-e> Or, half-way inbetween, abusing the dynamic linker for this job.
19:36:12 <zzo38> My own idea was that the compiler will do all of that stuff for you.
19:36:54 <int-e> Ah. I didn't define the problem: Have a single binary that will run and use a processor feature if present, but also run and not use it if the feature is absent.
19:37:53 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, the compiler should do it for you, and I might think code patching might do?
19:38:20 <zzo38> I specified such thing as ["implements"("bitselect",x,y)] unsigned int bitselect(unsigned int x,unsigned int y);
19:41:53 <int-e> oh funky. the documentation has an example using something called an "ifunc resolver" http://sprunge.us/AcbG ... an ELF feature.
19:41:57 <int-e> That could be fun.
19:42:17 <zzo38> Instruction sets I have designed in past already included what is called PDEP and PEXT in x86, although I used different names for them.
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19:57:27 <zzo38> But I like this instructions: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Muxcomp
19:58:47 <gamemanj> Idea for a company: sell Brainfuck As A Service solutions.
20:02:34 <gamemanj> (I'm already providing a free offering, but only accessible via Gopher. Mwuhahaha.)
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20:21:19 <HackEgo> Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2. But zzo38 thought of it first.
20:21:23 <HackEgo> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
20:21:30 <int-e> `learn The darknet is a world-encompassing network of underground gopher services.
20:21:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'darknet': The darknet is a world-encompassing network of underground gopher services.
20:22:00 <gamemanj> int-e: Underground gopher services? So Brainfuck-as-a-service is considered "underground" now?
20:22:08 <int-e> (slight redundancy there... where would a gopher be if not underground)
20:22:30 <int-e> gamemanj: no, it's a play on the animal meaning of the word
20:23:34 <gamemanj> `learn The darknet is a world-encompassing network of underground gopher services. Said services are paid for in plant roots and earthworms.
20:23:38 <HackEgo> Relearned 'darknet': The darknet is a world-encompassing network of underground gopher services. Said services are paid for in plant roots and earthworms.
20:24:51 <gamemanj> There. It'll either confuse the hell out of people with the first sentence, or if they understand the first, confuse the hell out of people with the second sentence. They'll either understand one or the other, but probably not both...
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20:25:50 <int-e> gamemanj: You've now confused me with your claims of confusion... to me the two sentences seem consistent.
20:26:05 <gamemanj> ...Mwuhahaha! My meta-plan worked!
20:26:48 <gamemanj> I was thinking that they'd interpret it as Gopher (protocol) and wonder why people would pay in plant roots and earthworms, or interpret it as Gopher (animal) and wonder how animals provide services.
20:34:03 <int-e> `learn Doublethink is the ability of holding the right belief. (If you think that you disagree with this definition, think again.)
20:34:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'doublethink': Doublethink is the ability of holding the right belief. (If you think that you disagree with this definition, think again.)
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20:35:48 <gamemanj> I think my system for uploading files to Gopher servers might be a bit messed up.
20:36:35 <gamemanj> Basically, there's a search-engine endpoint on the server which accepts a Brainfuck program.
20:36:52 <gamemanj> So I wrote a Lua script which takes a file, removes newlines/etc. (everything that isn't needed),
20:37:04 <gamemanj> prepends "executive/createBf" and a tab,
20:38:04 <int-e> huh... "Someone just tried to sign in to your Google Account from an app that doesn't meet modern security standards."
20:40:15 <gamemanj> ...I think I should support compressed base64 code upload...
20:42:05 <int-e> (First of all, I didn't "sign in"... I sent an e-mail from my usual mail client... secondly, could you please be more specific what you mean by not meeting modern security standards?)
20:42:14 <int-e> but I'll shut up about it :/
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20:54:01 <zzo38> I don't use Google Account, it has all of those problems and much more
20:55:15 <int-e> myname: nope, using STARTTLS. I checked.
20:55:39 <int-e> https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6010255?hl=en isn't helpful either.
20:56:54 <int-e> (Not perfect, since the server certificate isn't actually checked, so MITM is possible... but I don't see how Google could detect that.)
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20:57:45 <int-e> (well it's helpful insofar as it points me to the option of disabling the feature. but it doesn't tell me anything about what those "enhanced security standards" are exactly.
20:57:47 <zzo38> Encrypting the message itself would be better anyways I think; only the intended recipient would be able to read it.
20:58:14 <zzo38> STARTTLS and so on should not be needed.
20:58:34 <int-e> that's solving a different problem.
20:59:04 <int-e> This is for submission, and secured (password) authentication with a mail server.
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21:09:25 <b_jonas> fungot, what's the password of the day?
21:09:25 <fungot> b_jonas: in tail context i mean.)
21:09:45 <b_jonas> fungot: yeah, in tail context
21:09:45 <fungot> b_jonas: i was thinking: depending on the jury) for each of these components will be usable in isolation.
21:18:11 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: What happens when we combine the technology behind fungot with a programming language?
21:18:11 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: that helps hmm. i wonder what the default compiler policy is, if programmers can fork without some kind of front-end instruction decoder.
21:18:34 <hppavilion[1]> Like, make a language that is nothing more than a series of words
21:20:25 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Does fungot's response in any way depend on what you say to fnem?
21:20:26 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: alists then. this is what i happen to wish at given times, perhaps?
21:20:48 <zzo38> Do you like this? {-} Conspiracy ;; Hidden agenda ;; When ~ is faced up, you may pay {1(2/U)(2/U)}. If you do, or if target spell's name is the chosen name, counter that spell.
21:22:49 <int-e> Oh fun, now I've botched the headers of that email... stupid. But I'll blame Google for it :-P
21:23:17 <hppavilion[1]> (ASG = Abstract Syntax Graph, as opposed to AST = Abstract Syntax Tree)
21:23:35 <gamemanj> If an interpreter can interpret an interpreter that can run the first interpreter, then you can stack infinitely.
21:23:49 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Yes, but if you use compilers it can be done in finite space
21:25:52 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Unless you mean that the basic idea of The Grid is absurd, which is true /for now/
21:25:58 <gamemanj> So they got some neural network or something to choose one of some templates.
21:26:47 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: It actually designs the site in some capacity; it doesn't make the basic layout AFAICT, but it's more than just a neural network choosing a shell and sticking stuff in it
21:26:59 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: It actually does things like crop images via face recognition and such
21:29:12 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: It's obviously not on par with a web designer in terms of outputspace, but it's good enough for most applications. Luckily, it's not going to catch on any time soon.
21:29:16 <gamemanj> So basically... fill in text, maybe try and work out which images go where, crop images using some external module...
21:29:34 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: It's made by an ex-Google employee (head of department, IIRC)
21:30:41 <gamemanj> Sorry if I seem cynical, but really, it's easy to imitate most web designers anyway -
21:30:50 <gamemanj> half the time it's just vertical layout, toolbar at the top,
21:31:06 <gamemanj> correct CSS, and some of those "scroll and stuff happens" animations.
21:31:26 <gamemanj> Admittedly that's a lot more difficult to actually set up, but if it's a matter of the design?
21:32:38 <gamemanj> thegrid.io and ethereum.org: Here's what they have in common.
21:32:56 <gamemanj> Not actually pages, but "pages": you scroll and it's divided into sections.
21:33:12 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: But, y'know, for most people a generic website that doesn't look generic to them (because they aren't web designers) is enough
21:33:49 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: To their customers, it isn't a matter of whether it's groundbreaking art; they just don't want it to suck
21:34:46 <gamemanj> If it works, it works. Not saying otherwise. I'm just noting that, given the structure, it's not covering much new ground. It is a novel application, though.
21:35:16 <b_jonas> fungot, how many magnetic tapes can you write in parallel?
21:35:16 <fungot> b_jonas: then of course the committee changes its mind again.... fnord
21:35:39 <b_jonas> fungot: yeah, damned committees. they've denied my request for hardware extension too.
21:35:40 <fungot> b_jonas: slatex? what is the definition of scheme's syntax ( well, !aux) parameters and set!s. python-docutils rest, ie basically the parens and still get the whole thing
21:36:23 <hppavilion[1]> Looks like I need to restart my computer to get DOcker working
21:38:31 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: It appears that that's 363395873720940750532734673602455723122168259061554666207396343789667696668977026601159705068345305749588980027357341259349766026061334997034300004 magnetic tapes, expressed in base 256
21:39:08 <hppavilion[1]> 0x7468656e206f6620636f757273652074686520636f6d6d6974746565206368616e67657320697473206d696e6420616761696e2e2e2e2e20666e6f7264 for hexnerds
21:39:55 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: as for dependencies... i wonder whether i should watch some demos tomorrow. fnord in hacking pain!!!
21:40:06 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: java is made of iron, and sits next to kirby superstar as the exceptions to my platformer rule
21:40:18 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: So, if it's 363etc... in base 256... then where's the NULs? The 0-9 chars?
21:41:16 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I didn't use a weird order; I just used ord(c)
21:42:25 <gamemanj> and why on earth does this have "2e2e2e2e": 0x7468656e206f6620636f757273652074686520636f6d6d6974746565206368616e67657320697473206d696e6420616761696e2e2e2e2e20666e6f7264
21:42:26 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: our great fungey master said "then of course the committee changes its mind again.... fnord"
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21:42:45 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: And I treated that sentence as being a number expressed in base 256
21:43:04 <gamemanj> Hey, wait, could we do that to any data?
21:43:21 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Any fixed-size charset can be treated as a number
21:43:34 <gamemanj> Like if I were to express, say, the entirety of <insert your favorite movie here> as a base-256 number...
21:43:52 <int-e> `` dc <<<16i7468656E206F6620636F757273652074686520636F6D6D6974746565206368616E67657320697473206D696E6420616761696E2E2E2E2E20666E6F7264P
21:43:53 <gamemanj> would anyone be able to stop me?
21:44:27 <HackEgo> then of course the committee changes its mind again.... fnord
21:44:45 <int-e> gamemanj: well, it would be a very big book
21:44:48 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: For example, ascii-godel of gamemanj = 7449355541041737322
21:44:58 <gamemanj> int-e: All the better for crushing people with.
21:45:18 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: They could stop you in that you are distributing the necessary data to reconstruct a movie without paying for it
21:45:34 <gamemanj> Ah, but it's just one big number.
21:45:39 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Even if you weren't actually distributing it, and no matter how impractical it is
21:45:44 <int-e> gamemanj: it would also be a copyright infringement.
21:45:45 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act
21:46:16 <int-e> gamemanj: actually this kind of idea is old... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_prime
21:46:40 <gamemanj> ...so, what length of number is considered "copyrighted"? How far does this nonsense go?
21:46:46 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: You can also encode the number as an image, or as text, or as anything
21:47:07 <gamemanj> Like, if a 2048-bit prime just happens to match a small bit of copyrighted Brainfuck,
21:47:24 <gamemanj> then does that prime just become unusable?
21:47:53 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: But if you distribute the number with the purpose/information that it represents that BF, then it's a violation
21:48:02 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: It's weird and complicated and pretty stupid
21:49:20 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: It gets more complicated if you don't provide information on /how/ to decode it
21:49:25 <gamemanj> Who said anything about distributing the massive book with purpose?
21:49:46 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: For example, this IRC message can be decoded into a .tar.gz of all the copyrighted data in existence
21:50:07 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: But I won't tell you what algorithm to decode it with, so am I really violating anything?
21:50:21 <int-e> gamemanj: Actually copyright is kind of nice in that you cannot accidently violate it. If you pick a random number, and that represents the entire works of Rowling, that is not a copyright infringement. You'll have a lot of trouble proving that you picked that number at random though.
21:50:57 <int-e> (And if you didn't, but derived it from Rowling's work... well then that is a copyright infringement.)
21:51:36 <gamemanj> So, basically, copyright law also keeps in mind how you arrived at the data, and chances are pretty good that in practice nobody will believe it a coincidence.
21:52:05 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: 88006156602275967014932877753568725 can represent the entire works of rowling if you decode it properly, and I generated it knowing full well that that's the case.
21:52:22 <int-e> Also a program that prints a normal real number is allowed... while the output does, in principle, contain all copyrighted works, you need about as much information to encode where to find the works in that output as you need to represent the work itself in a mor straightforward way.
21:53:10 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Does that contain all copyrighted works under a normal decoding algorithm?
21:53:57 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: It -- abstractly speaking -- contains them, but it isn't derived from them. So it's fine.
21:54:32 <gamemanj> If Pi has an infinite number of digits...
21:54:43 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: HOW DARE YOU MENTION THAT ILLEGAL NUMBER
21:54:46 <gamemanj> ...then, thus, it contains an infinite number of copyrighted works.
21:55:00 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: There are a finite number of copyrighted works
21:55:15 <gamemanj> It includes all copyrighted works that will be, too.
21:55:24 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: but they all appear infinitely often, assuming pi is a normal number (which we do not know)
21:55:25 <gamemanj> So it approaches infinite over time.
21:55:57 <hppavilion[1]> We should make a universe where pi=3.184452094630565
21:56:03 <int-e> However, just because you own a haystack that doesn't make you an owner of a needle.
21:56:10 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Humans will only be around for a finite time
21:56:53 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: And unless copyright law (and physics) changes so you can own a non-finite number of discrete works (discrete means "not variants on each other), then it will still be finite
21:58:37 <hppavilion[1]> (318.4452094630565 points to anyone who decodes 3.184452094630565)
21:59:05 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: No. There's a Perl script that can take fungot binary model files and use them as the initial context (essentially, do a "continue from this prefix" thing), but the befunge code can't do it. (It doesn't load the model in memory, and the files are very much not designed for going text -> token indices, just the other way around).
21:59:06 <fungot> fizzie: so you've met a few phil. majors who are arrogant and ignorant. big deal
22:00:23 <fizzie> Possibly a verbatim quote.
22:00:39 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: will add together the contents of varname for the shell that uses your ffi to cause it to be accessible to high school students
22:01:06 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: just out of the stack. right now i am going to provide a choice of either never letting the public have it right here on my issue. thanks anyway :) this'll be fun...
22:01:57 <\oren\> AARGH I HATE ORBITAL MANEUVERING
22:02:53 <fizzie> Not "deliberately", but of course it can, since (almost by definition) any sentence existing in the training data is a high-likelihood one.
22:02:56 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:04:30 <\oren\> Thrust backward to go into a lower orbit, and therefore move forward relative to your previous orbit
22:05:42 <fizzie> (There's also one "bug"/misfeature that can make verbatim quotes more likely than they should be -- a consequence from using variable-length n-grams and ignoring the backoff weights.)
22:07:06 -!- ent0nces has joined.
22:09:04 <fizzie> (That is, if the model is saying that for the context "foo bar", the next word is 20% baz, 20% quux and 60% "something else, do backoff to using just 'bar' as the context", fungot will instead treat it as 50% baz or 50% quux as the only possibilities.)
22:09:04 <fungot> fizzie: regarding string comparison: http://www.ffconsultancy.com/ free/ fnord is a recursive acronym
22:10:57 <int-e> Okay, this is helpful, and plausible. "There may be an update, it is being hotly debated. as the "modern security standard" Google are trying to force feed everyone is a web standard not a mail standard. To work properly the application must act as a browser. [...] The truth is there is not a mail client on the planet other than Google web apps in a browser or on a mobile device that meet their...
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22:29:47 <int-e> https://support.google.com/a/answer/6260879?hl=en "Applications that rely on plain username/password authentication to access an account programmatically are considered less secure than those using modern day security standards such as OAuth 2.0."
22:34:17 <fowl> I use oauth out of laziness
22:36:08 <fowl> Too lazy to register, if I register I immediately forget the password
22:36:27 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
22:36:39 <int-e> Oh well, I keep authenticated websites to a minimum, and I don't want them linked.
22:37:54 <int-e> Anyway it seems that none of this would've happened if I had be more active on haskell-cafe...
22:38:06 <int-e> s/had be/had been/
22:38:35 <int-e> ...there was a grace period of 90 days when they made this switch.
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23:10:35 <lambdabot> ENVA 242150Z 13004KT 9999 FEW016 BKN050 M01/M02 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 14006KT
23:13:23 -!- jaboja has joined.
23:14:27 <lambdabot> LOWI 242150Z AUTO 06004KT 040V100 9999 -SN FEW012 BKN016 02/00 Q1011
23:15:01 <lambdabot> EGLL 242150Z AUTO 28006KT 9999 NCD 07/04 Q1019 NOSIG
23:15:27 <fizzie> It was snowing/sleeting when we left from Finland.
23:15:30 <lambdabot> EFHK 242150Z 09012KT 060V130 6000 RASN FEW006 SCT008 BKN012 05/04 Q0999 NOSIG
23:15:45 <fizzie> RASN probably means exactly that.
23:23:30 * hppavilion[1] joins 12-step program anonymous to help his addiction to getting addicted to things then joining <that thing> Anonymous to rid themself of that addiction
23:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I just read about what a 12-step program is and now I'm sad.
23:25:58 <int-e> HackEgo is in really bad shape.
23:26:14 <hppavilion[1]> Particularly because you can be forced into a 12-step program
23:26:52 <int-e> Yeah the christian evangelism is sickening.
23:27:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/doublethink//wisdom/doublethink: no such file in rev 1a4d19eed5e1
23:27:47 <HackEgo> Doublethink is the ability of holding the right belief. (If you think that you disagree with this definition, think again.)
23:28:32 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: It's not strictly Christian, but it's still forced religion
23:28:54 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:29:01 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Also, it advocates recognizing that you can't control that you're addicted; only some magical man in the sky can
23:31:54 <hppavilion[1]> "Oh, it's not /my/ fault that I spent all of our money on vodka"
23:32:09 <int-e> Okay, maybe not exactly christian. Though the origin certainly is...
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23:34:13 <int-e> It's not the worst idea to start with. Loss of control is one of the defining features of an addiction. But there's no need to bring a greater power into it.
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23:43:39 <quintopia> i am in starbucks, next to the guy who has an entire widescreen imac set up for the second day in a row
23:43:53 <quintopia> and there's always someone tutoring someone in math in here
23:44:13 <oerjan> . o O ( is that good or bad )
23:45:04 <quintopia> you decide what the implications are of someone (like me) spending way too much time in starbucks
23:46:06 <boily> why the fungot are you in a starbucks of all places?
23:46:07 <fungot> boily: which state that there must be 4 strings you can access files on that other host. 15 mb space, no ads, for sure, that's easy
23:46:13 * boily is a coffee hipster snob
23:46:16 -!- deepblu has joined.
23:46:24 <HackEgo> deepblu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:46:50 <boily> fungot: I prefer no strings attaches for hosting without ads.
23:46:51 <fungot> boily: umm.... no? objects have some tags so returned value of the current administration has had so much practice.
23:48:13 <int-e> hmm, string attaché
23:48:34 <boily> int-ello. I also prefer detached strings :P
23:48:46 <quintopia> boily: i know almost everyone behind the bar here. bunch of really cool folks. (also it is the only coffee shop out here in the burbs)
23:52:49 <oerjan> boily: i thought i should pass to the next logical step after ahoily and bhoily hth
23:53:27 <boily> oerjan: makes sense tdh
23:53:28 <int-e> . o O ( `learn zhoily is the last step )
23:53:44 <boily> int-e: that's exactly what they want you to believe. fnord.
23:53:57 <oerjan> boily: deepblu is earendel (is it a bot?)
23:54:16 <quintopia> boily: to be more clear why did you happen to get on irc at that exact moment and not before?
23:55:28 <earendel> oerjan: it's a bot.. i'd like to introduce it to you like in a few hours..you may like it or drop it. but im not entirely done. cool?
23:55:41 <boily> quintopia: oh, I got home from mahjong club. mahjong tends to disturb my anti-quintopian-schedule.
23:56:18 <boily> earendel: hearendello. it's a bot, therefore it's welcome. unless it antagonises fungot.
23:56:19 <fungot> boily: no idea. what's the intention for it? just businessmen?
23:56:36 <boily> fungot: fungot, deepblu. deepblu, fungot.
23:56:36 <fungot> boily: call-external-value ist undefined atm, i'm just being foolish... should be fnord right?) takes at least five minutes
23:57:01 <earendel> must just patch some huge gaps you would try to attack first .. you would ..by right :)
23:57:10 <boily> quintopia: I had a few good hands, but I was a tad too experimental with others ^^
23:57:36 <boily> we, attack bot weaknesses? who do you thing we are?
23:57:41 * boily whistles innocently
23:58:26 <oerjan> all bots are welcome as long as they're not too annoying
23:58:33 <coppro> quintopia: I taught him once
23:58:52 <coppro> tichu is a pretty fantastic game
23:59:18 <oerjan> (although being esolang-related helps)
00:00:29 <earendel> of course! :p ..im learning befunge now.
00:00:30 <boily> coppro tichued me at a faraway place. next time I'll bring a new card game to return the favour :D
00:00:58 <boily> earendel: you should aubergine, and purple.
00:01:08 <quintopia> such as spaceteam or dresden files
00:02:08 <earendel> im planning to check those music related stuff.. the big5. but do not worry. soon i will teach you some tricks. :D laterz
00:02:09 -!- ent0nces has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:02:19 <coppro> quintopia: I'd be down for that
00:02:50 -!- ent0nces has joined.
00:02:59 <quintopia> i'm shit at mahjong. i'm not interested unless you're incredible at it and a good teacher besides :P
00:04:01 <boily> coppro is a sneaky player. you think you're playing safe, then *THWACK* he wins.
00:04:35 <coppro> quintopia: I'm decent at it and I got a lot of practice teaching this weekend
00:04:39 <coppro> I'm good at teaching the basics now
00:04:48 <shachaf> boily: weren't we going to prismatajam hth
00:04:49 <coppro> the more complicated stuff, not so well-practiced
00:04:56 <coppro> quintopia: what kinds of mahjong do you know?
00:05:47 <boily> hellochaf. prismatajam? this ought to ring a bell, but sorry I don't know what you're talking aboot...
00:05:58 <quintopia> coppro: i played like twice a decade ago. all i remember is standing up a bunch of tiles in front of me
00:05:58 <boily> hppavellon[1]. hm?
00:06:07 <coppro> quintopia: you're halfway there
00:06:08 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:06:17 <coppro> the other half is yelling "RON" and laying them all down
00:06:24 * hppavilion[1] wants to make an abstract machine- not just a bytecode interpreter, but a fully-featured machine- suitable for scientific applications. In an esoteric fashion.
00:06:32 <shachaf> boily: http://prismata.net/
00:06:45 <shachaf> boily: or https://play.prismata.net/?demo
00:06:53 <tswett> Oh hey, it's Prismata.
00:06:58 <tswett> I think I might have bought that or something.
00:07:34 <shachaf> whoa, the demo is really old
00:07:39 <quintopia> why don't we just make up a new game we can play in text only in irc. without bots.
00:08:19 <boily> coppro: any IRC mahjong clients?
00:08:25 <tswett> Um, let me see if I can log in.
00:08:33 <coppro> boily: not that I'm aware of
00:09:53 <quintopia> it's not very convincing if you don't leave the channel
00:10:19 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across.
00:10:57 <tswett> Whelp... I have no idea how to access Prismata.
00:11:14 * hppavilion[1] wonders at what point metres intersect with yards, before realizing that it's obviously at x=0
00:11:32 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
00:12:07 <HackEgo> Relearned 'monqy': monqy is no longer extant
00:12:14 <tswett> Extant is also a word.
00:12:24 <tswett> It pretty much means "not extinct", I think.
00:12:35 <tswett> So I go to https://play.prismata.net/ and it says "Loading" and then I see a big black box.
00:12:54 <quintopia> monqy surely existed. and lives on only in concept. but is now hidden, unfindable.
00:13:40 <tswett> Now I see a small black box.
00:14:00 <boily> `learn monqy is no longer extant. He lives in concept, hidden, unfindable. You could ask itidus21 for details, if you find him.
00:14:03 <HackEgo> Relearned 'monqy': monqy is no longer extant. He lives in concept, hidden, unfindable. You could ask itidus21 for details, if you find him.
00:14:31 <shachaf> tswett: Well, I don't know.
00:14:50 <HackEgo> learn itidus21? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:14:51 <HackEgo> Doublethink is the ability of holding the right belief. (If you think that you disagree with this definition, think again.)
00:14:57 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
00:15:07 <hppavilion[1]> @tell itidus Just in case you're also a user: Whoops, wrong target
00:16:21 <quintopia> `learn itidus21 just made some instant coffee, and did it again an instant later, and then again and again. where is all this coffee coming from? it has buried itidus21! where is itidus21?
00:16:24 <HackEgo> Relearned 'itidus21': itidus21 just made some instant coffee, and did it again an instant later, and then again and again. where is all this coffee coming from? it has buried itidus21! where is itidus21?
00:17:16 <HackEgo> wisdom/itidus21//itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
00:17:35 <quintopia> boily: one month until work ends at 7pm. and DST is now officially out of early access.
00:18:12 <tswett> HackEgo: FASTER PLEASE
00:18:14 <HackEgo> zombiecheney/ZombieCheney lives under a bridge.
00:18:19 <coppro> boily: grav's server should support a real aPI though so at that point no reason you couldn't write a gravjong <-> irc relay
00:18:40 <coppro> is there a "COMBINING TILE ROTATED LEFT"?
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00:18:44 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/of holding/to hold/' wisdom/doublethink
00:19:01 <quintopia> boily: can you python as well as you ruby?
00:20:32 <boily> coppro: I like the name "gravjong".
00:20:56 <quintopia> is this something that fell out of the gravatarpits?
00:21:01 <boily> coppro: I don't think there is anything more than a single mahjong emoji in Unicode, but I may be wrong hth
00:21:06 <shachaf> oerjan: i've never heard of a "bag to hold" hth
00:21:11 <boily> quintopia: I can pythong better than I can ruby hth
00:21:18 <HackEgo> Doublethink is the ability to hold the right belief. (If you think that you disagree with this definition, think again.)
00:21:47 <quintopia> boily: wanna help me develop the hardest-to-implement esolang i've ever designed?
00:22:02 * oerjan puts shachaf in a bag, then swats it -----###
00:22:25 <coppro> boily: you are wrong tdnh
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00:23:35 <HackEgo> treefolk/Treefolk are genericized treants for intellectual property reasons.
00:23:36 <boily> quintopia: watch me Enterprise Programming you an interpreter, with a half-a-lisp spec somewhere in it :D
00:23:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: foolishness: not found
00:23:48 <coppro> 🀀🀁🀂🀃🀄🀅🀆🀇🀈🀉🀊🀋🀌🀍🀎🀏🀐🀑🀒🀓🀔🀕🀖🀗🀘🀙🀚🀛🀜🀝🀞🀟🀠🀡🀢🀣🀤🀥🀦🀧🀨🀩🀪🀫
00:23:58 <coppro> need a terminal font with mahjong tiles :(
00:23:59 <tswett> `unidecode 🀀🀁🀂🀃🀄🀅🀆🀇🀈🀉🀊🀋🀌🀍🀎🀏🀐🀑🀒🀓🀔🀕🀖🀗🀘🀙🀚🀛🀜🀝🀞🀟🀠🀡🀢🀣🀤🀥🀦🀧🀨🀩🀪🀫
00:24:01 <HackEgo> [U+1F000 MAHJONG TILE EAST WIND] [U+1F001 MAHJONG TILE SOUTH WIND] [U+1F002 MAHJONG TILE WEST WIND] [U+1F003 MAHJONG TILE NORTH WIND] [U+1F004 MAHJONG TILE RED DRAGON] [U+1F005 MAHJONG TILE GREEN DRAGON] [U+1F006 MAHJONG TILE WHITE DRAGON] [U+1F007 MAHJONG TILE ONE OF CHARACTERS] [U+1F008 MAHJONG TILE TWO OF CHARACTERS] [U+1F009 MAHJONG TILE THR
00:24:13 <oerjan> shachaf: are you being attacked by a wolf pack tdnh
00:24:38 <boily> coppro: I don't know which font I have here that can has mahjong tiles... let me send you a screenshot.
00:24:45 <HackEgo> twnh is dubious hambiguitous help that will or will not be help. It is provided by a toe with no hair.
00:25:07 <quintopia> boily: it probably does call for half-a-lisp, but it also calls for a decent implementation of arithmetic coding and a drag and drop gui interface. does this sound enterprisey enough for you?
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00:25:43 <oerjan> yay my font has all the mahjong tiles
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00:26:24 <boily> coppro: http://imgur.com/HKQich0
00:27:00 <coppro> I think I'm using droid sans mono
00:27:16 <coppro> and I'm using urxvt, which is not known for its font handling, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's failing to fall back
00:27:45 <quintopia> it didn't show up in konsole either
00:27:51 <tswett> (those wolves do not help)
00:28:04 <coppro> quintopia: konsole handles astral characters really poorly, not surprised
00:28:06 <boily> "Liberation Mono for Powerline regular 11". I don't know which fallback it is.
00:28:24 <coppro> quintopia: konsole does better than urxvt, anyway
00:28:39 <boily> gnome-terminal isn't so bad at font handling...
00:28:45 <coppro> but KDE applications (or possibly all of Qt) basically use UCS-2 and sometimes surrogates work by accident
00:29:07 <coppro> that was the pain point that made me switch away from konwole
00:29:24 <coppro> I might have to look at gnome-terminal
00:30:00 <\oren\> Are the mahjong tiles halfwidth or fullwidth?
00:31:16 <\oren\> looks to be halfwidth. that's gonna be hard to squeez
00:32:25 <hppavilion[1]> Stupid thing #4923: Superdynamic Linking (AKA Runtime Linking)
00:34:27 <\oren\> Hmm, it'll work better if I don't draw the tile borders
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00:39:05 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. I just remembered you had some graphs on your website. are you still updating them?
00:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> hellambda-01123581321345589144233377610987159725844181676510946177112865746368
00:41:22 <lambda-11235> boily: Hi. Also, note that weechat doesn't notify me when my nick is part of a larger word, in case you ever want to grab my attention.
00:41:48 <boily> hppavilion[1]: word.
00:41:52 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Also, you can configure most clients for other words, too
00:43:39 <tswett> Y'know, I'm probably worse at coming up with Japanese names than anime writers are at coming up with English names.
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00:44:06 <tswett> Like, to me, Kotayama Hareshu sounds like a perfectly plausible Japanese name.
00:44:14 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> INFINITE matrioshka language? <<hppavilion[1]> Or self-referential matrioshka language? <-- aka Feather hth
00:44:29 <tswett> But a Japanese person might think it sounds ridiculous.
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00:44:32 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: uh, what do you mean?
00:45:03 <boily> (do Japanese name ever mix up kanji and kana?)
00:45:04 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Doesn't everybody have that superpower where you recognize names in all languages perfectly? That isn't just me, right?
00:45:27 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Then why are you coming up with japanese names?
00:45:35 <tswett> It's just a fact that occurred to me.
00:46:03 <tswett> In Death Note, there was someone who was supposed to be named Larry, but his name onscreen was misspelled as Rally.
00:46:38 <tswett> There was also someone named Raye Penber. Like, if they'd just spelled the last name as "Pember", that would have been pretty plausible.
00:48:04 <\oren\> Penber looks more englishy than pember to me
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00:48:29 <tswett> Does English have any non-compound words at all with "nb" in them?
00:49:45 <tswett> I think "bonbon" is as close as English gets to that.
00:49:52 <tswett> Ignoring names such as Dunbar and Canberra.
00:50:07 <oerjan> technically those may all be compounds
00:50:45 <quintopia> i think the problem is not "nb" but rather "enb"
00:50:53 <\oren\> tswett: right, nb occurs in names
00:51:23 <quintopia> you want the syllable to end on the b with "enb" whereas with "unb" and "anb" it naturally ends on the n
00:52:34 <oerjan> canberra's etymology seems pretty disputed.
00:52:52 <tswett> Yep. All of the "enb" names in my /usr/share/dict/words are suffixed with "burg", "baker", "berg", "brau", "bach", "backer", "berry", or "borg".
00:53:56 <quintopia> i wonder when this starbucks closes
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01:07:47 <oerjan> . o O ( The Day Starbuck Never Closed - direct to DVD )
01:08:45 <boily> http://www.theonion.com/article/new-starbucks-opens-in-rest-room-of-existing-starb-560
01:09:20 <oerjan> a starbucks is like an onion, it contains layers
01:11:24 <boily> `addquote <oerjan> a starbucks is like an onion, it contains layers
01:11:37 <HackEgo> 1277) <oerjan> a starbucks is like an onion, it contains layers
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01:12:46 <oerjan> i knew i should have checked that quote properly in advance.
01:17:26 <lambda-11235> Subway is like cheeto powder, they get everywhere.
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01:20:45 <boily> lambda-11235: the sandwich, or the underground thingie?
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01:22:51 <lambda-11235> In one town I went to I could swear there was one on every street.
01:23:42 <\oren\> Ok, I suck at making these flower tiles look different
01:24:50 <boily> not surprising. they're the most numerousest chain in the whole world.
01:31:26 <\oren\> looking up some pictures helped
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01:44:24 <quintopia> if subway is like cheeto powder, then dunkin donuts is maybe like glitter, and starbucks is like powdered sugar
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01:49:21 * boily has sudden cravings for Tim's donuts...
01:52:53 <quintopia> i crave donuts all the time, but only krispy kreme doughnuts
01:53:40 <quintopia> i'm only alive today based on my ability to ignore cravings
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02:09:51 <fowl> Fresh krispy kremes omg they should be illegal
02:10:01 <fowl> A controlled substance
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02:26:57 <\oren\> 🀀🀁🀂🀃🀄🀅🀆🀇🀈🀉🀊🀋🀌🀍🀎🀏🀐🀑🀒🀓🀔🀕🀖🀗🀘🀙🀚🀛
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02:30:59 <\oren\> Good news, Everyone! Neoletters now supprot Mahjong tiles!
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03:00:08 <\oren\> hppavilion[2]: 倦倭偲寛哨填威婆寛尉尋尾尿屈履峡峰崇崎崖
03:00:09 <\oren\> 崩嵐巧帆帝帽幅幣幻幽幾床庶庸廃廉廊廷弄弊弐弥弦
03:00:22 -!- Frooxius has joined.
03:00:23 <\oren\> 🀀🀁🀂🀃🀄🀅🀆🀇🀈🀉🀊🀋🀌🀍🀎🀏🀐🀑🀒🀓🀔🀕🀖🀗🀘🀙🀚🀛🀜🀝🀞🀟🀠🀡🀢🀣🀤🀥🀦🀧🀨🀩🀪🀫
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03:03:53 <\oren\> ent0nces: why is your peer resetting your connection so much?
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03:05:35 <\oren\> Hey, fungot, why do peers reset connecitons?
03:05:36 <fungot> \oren\: and forcer is sarahbot who. ummmm....... what makes scheme suck more than ruby or python maybe, which i also think it's weird. it is
03:06:56 <\oren\> fungot: who's sarahbot?
03:06:56 <fungot> \oren\: should i? what kind of hint would you like
03:07:39 <\oren\> fungot: this is some sort of secret?
03:07:39 <fungot> \oren\: sicp has a similar philosophy
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03:14:12 <oerjan> \oren\: i think sarahbot may have been a bot in #scheme
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03:17:15 <\oren\> oh, similar to lambdabot of haskell
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03:20:15 <hppavilion[2]> Horrible Video Game Mashup #911660: Kerbal Plague Program
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03:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> Horrible Video Game Mashup #911660: Kerbal Plague Program
03:22:38 <hppavilion[1]> It's like KSP, but instead you're manufacturing biological weapons
03:24:43 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: a plague happened in Scott Manley's Interstellar Quest episode NaN
03:25:13 <\oren\> all his resources became NaN
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04:03:04 <hppavilion[2]> What is the stupidest numeral system you can think of
04:03:22 <hppavilion[2]> Provided that the algorithm to decode an arbitrary integer into this system must reside in finite space
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04:28:21 <FreeFull> http://paulhankin.github.io/Fibonacci/
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04:48:47 <hppavilion[2]> I feel like I've lived a fuller life now that I know that.
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05:25:25 <oerjan> girl genius: hah i guessed right!
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06:01:47 <lambda-11235> That moment when you relize you made a spelling mistake in an old git commit.
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06:05:21 <mad> 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5... = -1/12
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06:16:19 <zzo38> Yes that is one infinite sum
06:16:38 <zzo38> There are others, many of which I have written down the proof of, but not that one
06:20:34 <zzo38> For example 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + 32 + 64 + ... = -1 and 1 + 4 + 16 + 64 + 256 + ... = -1/3 and 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + ... = 1/2 and 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + ... = 2
06:21:15 <mad> you can get it from 1 -1 +1 -1 +1 = 1/2
06:21:42 <mad> s = 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6...
06:22:03 <mad> 4s = 4 + 8 + 12....
06:22:25 <mad> -3s= 1 - 2 + 3 - 4 + 5 - 6....
06:22:32 <mad> (doing the subtraction)
06:23:46 <mad> 1 - 2 + 3 - 4 + 5 - 6... = (1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1...) * (1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1...)
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06:25:56 <mad> proof: you can write (1-1+1-1+1...) * (1-1+1-1+1...) as the 1st term * 1st term + (2nd term * 1st term + 1st term * 2nd term) + (3rd term * 1st term + 2nd term * 2nd term + 1st term * 3rd term + etc
06:26:44 <mad> which gives you (1) + (-1-1) + (1+1+1) + (-1-1-1-1) + (1+1+1+1+1)....
06:26:44 <zzo38> So, it is more complicated than the others I have mentioned, but can still be worked
06:27:03 <mad> it's basically a more evolved form of 1-1+1-1+1-1...
06:27:18 <zzo38> How do you prove that though?
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06:32:39 <zzo38> The ones I have done are all much easier to prove (the last one I mentioned is convergent rather than divergent, but that seems irrelevant to me).
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06:39:34 <zzo38> I have first read about "1 + 4 + 16 + 64 + 256 + ... = -1/3" in a book actually, where they had a simple equation to solve a infinite series "x^0 + x^2 + x^4 + x^6 + x^8 + ..." which is supposed to be used for numbers less than 1 but if you put x=2 it comes out -1/3 which seems "nonsense". However I used a different method to figure out the answer of 1 + 4 + 16 + ... and also got -1/3, so clearly it must be correct.
06:40:51 <zzo38> (I have not checked if this method can derive the equation used.)
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06:43:51 <mad> there's a video on youtube about this
06:43:51 <mad> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcKRGpMiVTw
06:44:28 <zzo38> I don't watch video on YouTube; I watch text.
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07:08:55 <hppavilion[2]> For some reason, generalized mandelbrot sets make me uncomfortable
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07:12:43 <mad> is a turing complete fractal possible
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07:14:07 <zzo38> mad: I don't know.
07:14:17 <zzo38> How would such thing be working?
07:14:28 <myname> how is "2nd term * 1st term * 1st term * 2nd term" ever anything but 1?
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07:16:14 <mad> myname: 2nd term is -1
07:16:41 <mad> (-1*1) + (1*-1) = -1 + -1
07:17:31 <hppavilion[2]> mad: Do you mean a class of fractal rather than just one fractal?
07:17:36 <mad> zzo38 : a fractal where depending on where you evaluate it, it either coverges, or doesn't
07:17:52 <mad> corresponding to halting and non-halting in a turing machine
07:18:34 <mad> halt and non-halt are the only outputs needed for a turing complete system
07:19:08 <mad> you can get a binary output by racing two inputs
07:19:53 <mad> like, you have a version asking "is the answer X" and one asking "is the answer Y", first one to terminate means the answer is that
07:20:43 <mad> also you can use the infinite decimals of your evaluation as an infinite tape
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07:27:45 <myname> mad: 2nd * 1st * 1st * 2nd = 2nd^2 * 1st^2 = 1 * 1 = 1
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09:01:48 <mroman> wasn't there some esolang that required you to define syntax first?
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12:53:45 <fungot> b_jonas: that's a brand of rye bread. :) in fact, some said " gn" after our early fnord had said " yes you are all wrong
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13:55:14 <fizzie> I don't think rats are a brand of rye bread.
13:55:31 <fizzie> Or if they are (it is?), it doesn't sound like the best name, from a brand marketing perspective.
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14:17:55 <zgrep> fizzie: Depends on who you're assuming they're marketing to.
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14:34:49 <earendel> --> 14..toString(13) //base 13 for instance.. but can u mathporn-cunts elaborate if it's really worse than any other base that would seem sane to me? i mean.. don't come up with the number of factors.
14:36:41 <FireFly> --> "We have JS eval now?"
14:36:42 <deepblu> FireFly: We have JS eval now?
14:36:55 <FireFly> earendel: is it properly sandboxed?
14:38:53 <earendel> firefly: im still working on it. just felt safe enough to let it in here.. :) .. have some concept and work on a paper to introduce it later properly.. so much for now: no it's not gonna be just js
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14:39:32 <FireFly> Well, is it safe enough that I could toy with it and see if I find any way to break out of it? :p
14:40:49 <earendel> it's safe enough so you can try to do your worst.. i just ask to let me know about at some point so i can improve it..after you conquered my local network and downloaded all my illegal hd porn
14:41:16 <earendel> but it could be a little spammy.. maybe you wait. itll be more fun later:D
14:41:56 <earendel> tell me what you think about base 13.
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14:43:47 <FireFly> What I think about base 13? Well, the quote by Douglas Adams comes to mind
14:43:58 <FireFly> “Some readers who were trying to find a deeper meaning in the passage soon noticed that 610 × 910 is actually 4213 (as 4 × 13 + 2 = 54, i.e. 54 in decimal is equal to 42 expressed in base 13). When confronted with this, the author claimed that it was a mere coincidence, famously stating that "I may be a sorry case, but I don't write jokes in base 13."”
14:44:31 <FireFly> "6₁₀ × 9₁₀ is actually 42₁₃"
14:48:43 <myname> which makes it better imo
14:49:19 <FireFly> Not really sure why they used _10 there
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17:37:06 <\oren\> or 254 if you want to use 0xff as a decimal point
17:43:27 <ais523> use that as the decimal point
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18:16:14 <myname> why not use base 65536?
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18:34:55 <earendel> so, is the way we're used to base10 only a matter of phaenotype? just an arbitrary condition and excercise? or is there some affiinity between us and 10 (fingers?) that makes this preference? did other ethnic groups develop another base?
18:35:18 <earendel> a quarter pounder with cheese?!? :o
18:36:26 <int-e> My preferred binary base for calculations on paper was base 8.
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18:37:04 <int-e> (past tense because I no longer do such computations manually)
18:38:12 <int-e> but there's something to be said for a base where 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 and 1/6 have finite expansions, as well as 1/8, 1/9, 1/10...
18:38:21 <int-e> ...the babylonians were clever.
18:40:42 <earendel> so.. our digits are arabic right? once upon the time
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18:43:32 <earendel> so what kiind of system is the roman..it's base 10 just with a symbol system that's more like ... a currency..right?
18:44:00 <b_jonas> "what kiind of system is the roman" => a stupid one
18:44:42 <b_jonas> it's more stupid than the system where greek or hebrew letters used to mark nonzero digits in the ones, tens, and thousands positions.
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18:47:50 <int-e> "[...] our modern decimal place value system was invented by Hindu mathematicians in India, probably by the sixth century and perhaps even earlier. The modern numerals 1, 2, 3, ..., are sometimes called "Arabic" numerals in the West because they were introduced to Europeans by Arab merchants." ... so not really arabic.
18:48:36 <earendel> i think just the digits are arabic
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18:48:56 <int-e> (quote from http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/roman.html via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals)
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18:53:29 <HackEgo> monkey eats banana? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:55:23 <earendel> oh the maya used base20 .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_numerals
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19:25:28 <zzo38> Such numeral can be call "Hindu-Arabic"
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20:57:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46838&oldid=43458 * IAM * (+127)
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21:04:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xfix * New user account
21:09:48 <hppavilion[2]> I want to design a processor architecture that could run a 2ducks-like language
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21:10:28 <izabera> how much experience do you have in processor architecture design?
21:10:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46839&oldid=33842 * IAM * (+312) /* Getting Stuck */ new section
21:11:06 <hppavilion[2]> izabera: Nothing formal and not a lot informal, but I would be working somewhat in the abstract
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21:32:14 <hppavilion[2]> Morality Quote of the Day that Depends on Obscure Knowledge: "Racism is context-free"
21:32:34 <b_jonas> I was thinking about the rust language by the way, and there's a funny thing I'd like to point out.
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21:34:37 <b_jonas> Do you know how the definitions for C specifically say that the arguments of a function call or an operator can be evaluated in any order, it's an implementation freedom, with some exceptions? And how the definition of scheme says the same, and how common lisp gives a much tighter restriction (function arguments are evaluated front to back order, but the called function itself can be evaluated before or after or between them as the impl chooses),
21:35:10 <b_jonas> and how perl doesn't documented this so people had debates about what perl actually promises about the order of evaluation of most operators?
21:35:47 <b_jonas> So there are good arguments for fixing the order, and good arguments for not fixing the order, but in the end it's certainly a judgement call by whoever defines the language, right?>
21:36:37 <b_jonas> The funny thing is, in rust, they don't have a choice, they must fix the evaluation order.
21:37:30 <b_jonas> It's because the evaluation order can change whether the program is valid at compile time, because the evaluation order determines which values count as compile-time initialized. Unlike C++, in rust, a variable can be in scope yet compile time uninitialized.
21:38:48 <b_jonas> Now of course whoever defines it still has the freedom to pick an evaluation order (and it's not obvious which order is best for the assignment operator and for function calls), but they have to choose one and stick to it.
21:39:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GPRX 3000]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46840 * Xfix * (+2201) Initial version of GPRX 3000 description
21:39:29 <pikhq> Sure. Changing semantics in a subtle yet fundamental way like that is bad news.
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21:40:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46841&oldid=46801 * Xfix * (+16) Add GPRX 3000
21:42:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GPRX 3000]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46842&oldid=46840 * Xfix * (+25) Add who invented a language
21:42:27 <b_jonas> Of course, there will be few programs where this actually matters, but it's a fun theoretical point.
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21:55:58 <xfix> I do wonder how usable for computing GPRX 3000 is, but it's probably not (but at the same time, I don't have a proof it's not)...
21:58:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GPRX 3000]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46843&oldid=46842 * Xfix * (+118) Extra clarifications for GPRX 3000 language
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22:14:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46844&oldid=46839 * IAM * (+84) /* Getting Stuck */
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22:21:08 <Kaynato> A friend has an interesting idea: http://i.imgur.com/P0pMbmu.png
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22:21:38 <ais523> can you describe it? I'm very reluctant to follow undescribed links
22:21:47 <ais523> especially if someone joins the channel just to post them
22:21:56 <ais523> (I mean, I recognise imgur, but the URL doesn't say a lot about the image)
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22:25:05 <fizzie> I'm less reluctant, and can tell that it's a screenshot of a text file open in an editor.
22:25:35 <ais523> why not just use a pastebin? unless it uses some sort of nonstandard syntax highlighting?
22:25:41 <ais523> or, going the other way, use a wooden table?
22:25:44 <xfix> Is it like "require enterprise style coding"?
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22:26:02 <fizzie> It could be nonstandard syntax highlighting.
22:27:06 <fizzie> Although a bar at the bottom says "Java".
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23:13:04 <int-e> now I want to fast forward 3 weeks...
23:15:01 -!- oerjan has set topic: Recommended by pi out of 5 doctors! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Chemnitz (not Karl-Marx-Stadt).
23:16:08 <oerjan> `` date 'today+23 days'
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23:16:26 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `today+23 days'
23:16:39 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `23 days'
23:16:51 <int-e> > chr (ord 'd' + 23)
23:16:52 <ais523> is this even GNU's date parser? :-D
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23:17:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smallfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46845&oldid=40009 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
23:17:55 <oerjan> `` date 'today+23days'
23:17:56 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `today+23days'
23:19:33 <b_jonas> `perl -e use Date::Manip::Date 6.30; $d = Date::Manip::Date->new("today"); $i = $d->new_delta("+23 days"); print $d->calc($i)->printf("%O\n");
23:19:35 <HackEgo> Can't locate Date/Manip/Date.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.14.2 /usr/local/share/perl/5.14.2 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.14 /usr/share/perl/5.14 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at -e line 1. \ BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at -e line 1.
23:19:48 <b_jonas> well, HackEgo doesn't run that, but that's what I'd do
23:20:13 <b_jonas> because the gnu date parser is stupid
23:20:28 <int-e> `` date -d 'today+23days'
23:20:30 <HackEgo> Wed May 18 22:20:27 UTC 2016
23:20:33 <oerjan> i'm not sure it counts if it's harder to remember the syntax than to calculate in your head
23:20:36 <b_jonas> it says 2016-05-19T00:00:00 on my machine (note that this is a timezone dependent today)
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23:21:03 <b_jonas> oerjan: what? I remember syntax without looking it up, except for the 6.30 version number
23:21:28 <boily> guys, is it bad if my first reflex to compute the date is to use Java?
23:21:32 <b_jonas> (and that one I can omit on my home machine where I know I have a new enough version)
23:21:47 <int-e> boily: very, very bad.
23:22:13 <b_jonas> oerjan: ironically, the syntax I can't remember is actually
23:22:23 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec date --rfc-3=n "$@"
23:22:41 <b_jonas> --rfc-3 is actually an abbreviation for a longer rfc number, but I don't know that number
23:22:46 <int-e> datei? any germans involved in that file name?
23:22:51 <int-e> `culprits bin/datei
23:22:54 <b_jonas> and you need the 3 because there's another long option starting with --rfc-
23:23:49 <b_jonas> int-e: nah, it's just that I use an i suffix in a lot of aliases I use that give saner options than the default when I don't just want to override the command with an alias of the same name
23:24:06 <b_jonas> int-e: I have gapi, ffplayi, ffprobei, and more I think
23:24:37 <shachaf> speaking of which what does int-e stand for
23:24:40 <b_jonas> no, I think it originally stood for interactive
23:24:54 <int-e> In fact I stand for myself.
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23:26:46 <oerjan> now we just need to know what happens on 18/19 May
23:27:12 <int-e> > chr (ord 'd' + 23)
23:28:53 <oerjan> i'm afraid i cannot guarantee that kind of regularity, hth
23:29:18 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen.
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23:30:05 <b_jonas> oerjan: if you can't remember the syntax, here's one you can probably remember more easily. Go to http://www.timeanddate.com/ , follow the link “What Date is it in X Days?” to http://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadd.html , click on the today link (needs javascript), enter 23 to the "Days" field, submit the button "Calculate new date".
23:30:23 <oerjan> `learn_append int-e Hen står för sig själv.
23:30:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'int-e': int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv.
23:31:05 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://www.timeanddate.com/ is very useful, it's a site I'm really impressed with. They actually read my mails and fixed some of what I asked.
23:31:18 <int-e> I need to get on that Sun project.
23:31:31 <b_jonas> Reacting well to reports is something that really increases my confidence in software stuff.
23:32:16 <oerjan> b_jonas: that's not very useful for channel musings hth
23:32:49 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
23:32:57 <int-e> what about confidential trust issues
23:33:12 <oerjan> b_jonas: it's hard to make timeanddate.com give the result in the channel hth
23:34:09 <b_jonas> we could probably put something together with HackEgo's special http download command
23:34:13 <b_jonas> but it wouldn't look too good
23:34:38 <b_jonas> yes, if you want it in the channel then you have to stick to Date::Manip, unless it's one of those impossible tasks that Date::Manip can't do, like
23:35:07 <oerjan> `wget https://google.com
23:35:09 <HackEgo> --2016-04-25 22:35:05-- https://google.com/ \ Resolving google.com (google.com)... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `google.com'
23:35:12 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:35:30 <oerjan> `wget https://www.google.com
23:35:31 <HackEgo> --2016-04-25 22:35:27-- https://www.google.com/ \ Resolving www.google.com (www.google.com)... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `www.google.com'
23:35:52 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:36:04 <b_jonas> FOLLOWING THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT'S RANDOM CHANGES OF WORKDAYS THAT THEY ANNOUCNE IN LIKE NOVEMBER OF THE PREVIOUS YEAR AND THEN DARE TO CHANGE IT IN DECEMBER SO EVERYONE IS CONFUSED ABOUT WHEN THEY HAVE TO WORK AND WHEN THEY DON'T AND NOBODY CAN PLAN AHEAD
23:36:15 <b_jonas> plus all the timezone changes around the world too
23:36:22 <oerjan> b_jonas: first we have get Gregor to (1) come here (2) fix the web proxy (3) add it to the whitelist.
23:36:37 <oerjan> currently stuck on step 1.
23:36:53 <int-e> `fetch https://www.google.com/
23:37:03 <HackEgo> 2016-04-25 22:36:57 URL:https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=C5weV-zxE4Si8we0rYGABg [10978] -> "index.html" [1]
23:37:15 <HackEgo> <!doctype html><html itemscope="" itemtype="http://schema.org/WebPage" lang="en-CA"><head><meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"><meta content="/images/branding/googleg/1x/googleg_standard_color_128dp.png" itemprop="image"><title>Google</title><script>(function(){window.google={kEI:'DJweV4LqF8K0sQGSxJnwBw',kEXPI:'1350
23:37:16 <b_jonas> oerjan: perlbot has a command that can fetch.. the status line of a HEAD request? or something like that
23:37:48 <b_jonas> special command, not invokable from a script I think
23:37:56 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: fetch: not found
23:38:25 <oerjan> int-e: no i mean `wget, `fetch is useless for building a command around
23:38:57 <oerjan> i just wanted to check if `wget was working at all these days
23:39:09 -!- ent0nces has joined.
23:39:59 <int-e> `curl http://localhost/
23:40:05 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \
23:40:17 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
23:40:41 <oerjan> b_jonas: they should make an international treaty that forbids changing timezone systems less than say, 5 years in advance.
23:41:50 -!- boily has quit (Quit: DISQUIETING CHICKEN).
23:41:50 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:41:53 <b_jonas> although it would be hard to define this stuff properly
23:42:07 <hppavilion[2]> It is undecidable whether they generate equivalent languages
23:42:14 <hppavilion[2]> But it's still possible for some pairs of grammars
23:43:16 <oerjan> hm is that undecidable for context-free too
23:43:18 <hppavilion[2]> What are the useful tools for proving Lang (fst x) = Lang (snd x) for all xes in some subset of Grammar*Grammar?
23:43:33 <oerjan> (it's decidable for regular)
23:43:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: um it's easier for regular
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23:43:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: I mean, when they change timezones and workdays because there's a fucking war and you were living in one country but suddenly that country no longer exists and you're living in a totally different country or nobody is really sure what countries are, and people are shooting each other for supposedly their religion, then I can understand if timezones and workdays change and it's the least of the problem.
23:44:12 <int-e> you remember that wrong
23:44:19 -!- Melvar` has joined.
23:44:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: nope. you can intersect, union and complement computably
23:44:26 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
23:44:30 <b_jonas> oerjan: but when there's no such causes, THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD JUST LET BUSINESSES BE ABLE TO PLAN AHEAD MORE THAN A FEW MONTHS
23:44:31 <oerjan> and test for emptiness.
23:44:32 <int-e> and check for emptyness
23:45:00 <b_jonas> and ordinary people too, but it's more pain for businesses
23:45:10 <lambdabot> shachaf says: I remember when I joined #haskell and everyone would @quote stereo.
23:45:19 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar.
23:45:19 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in contrapuntal fugues.
23:45:20 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
23:45:23 <lambdabot> xplat says: Welcome to #haskell-blah, where your bot commands are executed in triumphant stereo!
23:45:46 <int-e> the question is, is Cale's original one still there...
23:46:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: you just calculate L1 /\ L2^c \/ L1^c /\ L2 and check if it's empty
23:46:56 <lambdabot> mmorrow says: and didn't realize what it really said until after i @remembered it
23:47:03 <int-e> @quote @remember stereo
23:47:16 <int-e> "Welcome to #haskell, where @remember's are in majestic stereo!"
23:47:24 <int-e> that's the closest to the original (which is gone)
23:47:26 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
23:47:47 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i think it's undecidable for context-free, iirc it's undecidable even whether a CF language is Alphabet^*
23:47:56 <lambdabot> quanticle says: Are you trying to fit a genderless elder being into your binary gender stereotypes, you cishet shitlord?
23:48:12 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: It's undecidable for context free according to <b_jonas> and ordinary people too, but it's more pain for businesses
23:48:13 <oerjan> (although it's decidable whether it's empty.)
23:48:18 <hppavilion[2]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_undecidable_problems
23:48:20 -!- ent0nces has joined.
23:48:44 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: hehe, that sounded fungotty
23:49:06 <b_jonas> I mean, it unexpectedly makes sense in a way that some of fungot's lines do
23:49:23 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: I AM DEFINITELY NOT FUNGOT IN DISGUISE ATTEMPTING TO TAKE OVER THE FNORD
23:50:06 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: It's also undecidable, given two CFGs, whether their intersection is empty
23:50:29 <int-e> hppavilion[2]: drop the CAPS and distinguishing you from fungot will become impossible!
23:50:30 <b_jonas> I mean (explaining this ruins the joke) the problem is that it's undecidable which days are workdays
23:51:05 <hppavilion[2]> int-e: Who says fungot can't caps? Once fungot is fully saptient fne may be able to.
23:51:11 <HackEgo> zerg/We'll try to think of an entry here, but we don't want to rush it.
23:51:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: boring: not found
23:51:26 <lambdabot> quanticle says: Are you trying to fit a genderless elder being into your binary gender stereotypes, you cishet shitlord?
23:51:29 <HackEgo> Boring means of little interest.
23:51:57 <int-e> hppavilion[2]: well, it isn't, and it's usually all lower case, and stops in the middle of sentences.
23:52:12 <b_jonas> int-e: and has spaces after opening quotation marks
23:52:25 <HackEgo> aglist/aglist is update notification for the Abstruse Goose webcomic. http://abstrusegoose.com/
23:52:29 <oerjan> <lambdabot> instead says: of @remember <-- cute
23:52:35 <b_jonas> yeah I know. I made that one.
23:53:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 60-ball: not found
23:53:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: *-ball: not found
23:53:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access *-ball: No such file or directory
23:53:17 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:53:21 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*-ball: No such file or directory
23:53:40 <int-e> `` echo bin/*-ball
23:53:52 <int-e> just ` has no glob expansion
23:54:19 <HackEgo> bin/8-ball bin/culprits-c bin/culprits-ng bin/echo-p bin/from-8bit bin/hello-world-in-any-language bin/karma- bin/luarocks-admin bin/morse-decode bin/perl-e bin/raw-url bin/rm-p bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
23:54:21 <HackEgo> cat: bin/```: No such file or directory
23:54:27 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@" | rnooodl
23:54:30 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
23:54:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/8-cube: No such file or directory
23:54:39 <HackEgo> bin/1492 bin/2014 bin/2015 bin/2016 bin/2017 bin/5quote bin/8-ball bin/8ball
23:55:21 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ shuf -n 1 share/8ballreplies
23:55:24 <int-e> ``` is just a variant of ``
23:56:20 <int-e> `wc share/8ballreplies
23:56:22 <HackEgo> 20 68 359 share/8ballreplies
23:56:44 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: maybe you should look up what an 8-ball is on the internet
23:57:06 <int-e> hppavilion[2]: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/share/8ballreplies
23:57:38 -!- ent0nces has joined.
23:57:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:57:58 <int-e> `url wisdom/wisdom
23:57:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/wisdom
23:58:09 <int-e> why did I do that manually...
23:58:58 <hppavilion[2]> So again, given two CSGs, what tools are good for deciding the big (usually undecidable) problems about subsets of them?
00:02:03 <int-e> Who works with CSGs?
00:02:03 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:03:49 <int-e> I've dealt with Turing Machines. I have not used CSGs for anything meaningful that I remember.
00:04:00 <oerjan> i'd imagine they mostly just work with SPACE(O(n)) if they care about the class
00:04:43 <int-e> it's such an unwieldy model of computation
00:05:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: turing machines recognize everything
00:06:07 <int-e> Oh I've done some string rewriting which actually comes quite close.
00:06:27 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Really? I would think that you would need a TM For the CSGs
00:06:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i said TM
00:06:51 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: OK, then what system generates the ECTs (Every Computable Things)
00:07:04 <oerjan> TMs without restriction
00:07:15 -!- ent0nces has joined.
00:07:33 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: What thing analogous to BNF is used for the Unrestricted Grammars?
00:07:34 <oerjan> s/linearly bounded/linearly bounded memory/
00:08:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: unrestricted grammars _are_ analogous to BNF.
00:08:12 <int-e> (but string rewriting will take you directly to Chomsky type 0)
00:08:49 <int-e> (string rewriting = semi-Thue systems)
00:08:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: ...are you incapable of understanding the word "analogous"?
00:09:16 * oerjan getting annoyed, sorry
00:09:59 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: I thought that a and c are analogous (with some implicit connection b and d) if a:b::c:d
00:10:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i think unrestricted grammars have the same problem as int-e noted for CFG: no one _really_ uses them because they don't have nice properties for actual parsing
00:10:45 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: But if they the only thing at your disposal is grammars, it's better to have a URG than a CFG
00:11:07 <oerjan> well if you want to use it to describe computations, sure
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00:11:56 <oerjan> it depends what you mean by "better". there is the usual duality where better at being powerful means worse at being analyzable
00:12:33 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Remember Thoof? I'm basically just doing that again, but trying to make it cleaner
00:13:54 <hppavilion[2]> Actually, I should use decidable grammars. That seems less stupid
00:13:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: there are some who think that the real problem with answering the P vs. NP question is that no one has a real grip on how powerful P is. and CSG is almost as bad.
00:14:44 <int-e> hppavilion[2]: the thing is, it's know that equivalence of context-sensitive grammars is undecidable. of course you can try to decide it for as many cases as possible, but to sell this, scientifically, you need a compelling reason why this question is of practical interest, I think, because theoreticians will not care much about methods that only work in some cases.
00:15:28 <hppavilion[2]> int-e: It's a proof assistant. Proving their equivalence is the job of the user, not of the program. I just want to know what tools to include.
00:16:01 -!- ent0nces has joined.
00:16:24 <int-e> hppavilion[2]: I bet you'll find publications on testing equivalence of CFGs, even though the problem is undecidable, precisely because there's some practical interest. In fact: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/sumitg/pubs/oopsla15-edu.pdf
00:16:40 <hppavilion[2]> OK, what I need is a concrete machine that is a decider (machine that always halts)
00:17:14 <hppavilion[2]> (concrete as in "some sort of metaphor that you can actually think about and manipulate")
00:18:15 <ais523> esolang idea I had a while back: a language where the only data structure is strings, which are manipulated character-wise
00:18:31 <ais523> except at all points, each variable has to contain a real English word or the program crashes
00:18:44 <ais523> the problem is I can't see a way to make it TC without losing the spirit behind the language
00:20:29 <ais523> well, "naturally" it ends up as a finite state machine
00:20:42 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:20:42 <ais523> and those normally allow uninteresting translations of programs via hardcoding the output
00:20:54 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
00:21:02 <ais523> if you take input it's more interesting but even then I suspect you'd just use two similar words as 0 and 1 and have all your variables as booleans
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00:25:16 <mad> are there a lot of systems that we just don't know if they're turing complete yet?
00:26:44 <mad> like, systems that can loop finitely or infinitely (and where it's not trivial to determine how long it'll loop), and where the amount of info in it can increase infinitely or decrease, but there are no proofs of turing completeness or non-completeness
00:30:41 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
00:31:19 <mad> stuff like the collatz conjecture and the mandelbrot fractal and so forth
00:31:42 <mad> possibly some kinds of recursive equations or summation
00:33:45 <mad> and lychrel numbers
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00:35:16 <mad> I'm kinda wondering if most of them are turing machines but are just excessively hard to write a program in
00:36:16 <mad> or if it's possible to have a system that has most trappings that would make a turing machine (infinitely growable state, unpredictable halting) but are just too chaotic to be turing complete
00:37:11 <oerjan> ais523: obviously you cannot do it with a finite number of variables, which means you need some kind to structure an unbounded number of them.
00:37:33 <ais523> oerjan: I've been wondering whether English actually has infinitely many words
00:37:40 <ais523> but even if it did, they'd follow predictable patterns i think
00:37:45 <ais523> in an uninteresting way
00:37:57 <ais523> so yes, you need unboundedly many variables, but in an interesting way somehow
00:38:22 <oerjan> ais523: the first obvious idea is that arrays of variables need to be grammatically correct phrases
00:38:46 <ais523> you'd need a better dictionary for that
00:38:49 <int-e> just make it a crosswords thing
00:38:54 <ais523> but fizzie probably has one, so that's not insurmountable
00:38:58 <mad> english doesn't meaningfully have infinite words
00:39:02 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:39:09 * ais523 imagines an array full entirely of "buffalo"
00:39:15 <mad> mostly because your morphemic construction is too limited
00:39:53 <mad> though I guess you could do it in a polysynthetic language
00:40:19 <ais523> mad: you can argue the case for tautonyms
00:40:32 <mad> start with a verb -> nominalize -> incorporate into a verb -> nominalize -> incorporate into a verb -> nominalize -> etc...
00:40:37 <ais523> but that's basically just unary that can't get shorter than three
00:41:12 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
00:41:47 * mad looks up tautonums
00:42:03 <mad> latin animal names that have the same name twice or more?
00:42:36 <ais523> the word's basically been generalized to mean any word that contains a repeating section
00:42:51 <mad> how do you do that in english
00:43:20 <oerjan> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
00:43:23 <mad> afaik it's like the language with the least reduplication morphemes in the world
00:43:40 <oerjan> mad: *MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*
00:44:06 -!- ent0nces has joined.
00:44:50 <mad> (ok that might have been a hyper-hyper-bole :3 )
00:45:37 <int-e> so following the crossword idea, what about this: There's an infinite grid, initially populate with an 'a' at the origin. There's an operation that takes an english word and tries to insert it into the crosswords; it would try to insert the word in some fixed order that moves out from the origin, and succeed if the word could be inserted (overlapping with at least one existing word, filling at...
00:45:43 <int-e> ...least one space, and preserving the property that all vertical and horizontal words are proper english words... like scrabble). You get back one bit of information, namely whether the operation succeeded or not.
00:46:14 <int-e> So it's an awkward write only storage... but not clearly insufficient to make things TC.
00:46:40 <int-e> err, append only is what I wanted to say.
00:47:36 <shachaf> oerjan: that swat is for something in the distant past tdnh
00:48:44 <oerjan> shachaf: behold the long arm of the swatter
00:48:45 <mad> english is possibly on the bottom end of the scale for how modular its words are
00:48:59 <mad> actually I'm pretty sure it is
00:49:11 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
00:49:54 <mad> due to the combination of tons of loanwords and low complexity of the verb grammar and noun grammar
00:51:41 <int-e> oerjan: isn't that how you normally feel?
00:53:00 -!- ent0nces has joined.
00:54:34 <int-e> oh, foreshadowing (GG)...
00:55:47 <augur> i dont know what it means to say that a language's words are modular
00:56:26 <augur> as for infinitely many english words, english morphology allows cycles
00:56:40 <augur> so there are infinitely many words, but not in a hugely interesting way
00:57:04 <int-e> Sprachbaukastenträume (dreams of construction kits for languages)
00:57:35 <augur> int-e: there's a language construction kit out there
00:58:00 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:58:17 <int-e> that isn't quite the point I was trying to make
00:58:48 -!- idris-bot has joined.
00:59:09 <oerjan> språkmeningsutvekslingskatastrofe
00:59:27 <augur> if the point is about german, dont be fooled. german "very long words" are actually multiple words, but the orthographic convention is to not use spaces
00:59:50 <augur> grammatically, they're not single words, just compound words
01:00:12 <augur> english has them in abundance just like german but english orthography for compounding is to use spaces
01:00:42 <mad> augur: give me an example of english cycle
01:01:04 <augur> mad: -ish is Noun -> Adjective, -ness is Adjective -> Noun
01:01:59 <oerjan> int-e: i think my evil has gone too far.
01:02:12 -!- ent0nces has joined.
01:02:24 <int-e> oerjan: you could drive space ships with it, but I see that as a feature
01:02:38 <mad> is -nessish possible?
01:02:49 <int-e> it's not nearly as bad as the space ships driven by bad news (--> Hitchhiker)
01:03:42 <augur> mad: but the meanings of these are tricky, because -ness creates an abstract noun, so we get increasing fuzziness and it rapidly becomes weird
01:03:48 <augur> but grammatically its fine
01:04:57 <augur> of course there's always anti- :)
01:05:10 <int-e> augur: The point was that compound nouns are *very* modular.
01:05:12 <augur> anti^n-X is always fine, of course
01:05:27 <augur> int-e: i still dont know what modular means in this context :)
01:06:08 <int-e> modular things can be combined more or less freely, but also taken apart.
01:06:20 <augur> oh, agglutinative, then
01:06:41 <augur> as opposed to fusional
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01:07:23 <augur> english is on the agglutinating end of the spectrum but it has some places where fusional morphology is found
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01:09:59 <mad> eh, I'd call english analytic
01:10:18 <mad> and for the parts that aren't analytic, fusional
01:10:50 <mad> agglutinating generally implies that your compounding is relatively clean-cut
01:10:57 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*earendel@unaffiliated/earendel.
01:10:57 -!- oerjan has kicked earendel.
01:11:15 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
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01:11:46 <mad> which isn't really the case for english (or any european language really)
01:12:30 <oerjan> mad: before today, i'd _almost_ started thinking he'd changed his ways.
01:13:18 <mad> I don't think I know him anyways
01:14:32 <oerjan> mad: old channel troll who keeps coming back. this time it took longer before i noticed it was him (in fact i got tipped)
01:16:00 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:16:41 <oerjan> although that was a while ago... he was behaving so well i decided to stay silent.
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01:25:00 <mad> makes sense
01:25:33 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:27:24 <int-e> two unecessary outbursts using foul language, as far as I can tell.
01:27:48 <int-e> (boily uses fowl language all the time and he's still allowed here, how fair is that)
01:28:37 <fowl> I speak clicks, whistles and clucks
01:28:44 <shachaf> to be fair boily only uses it when he quits
01:28:48 <shachaf> so you can't kick him anyway
01:28:55 <fowl> Three distinct bird languages
01:29:04 <fowl> Each with their own grammar and syntax
01:29:05 <FireFly> foal language on the other hand...
01:29:28 <fowl> oerjan: nahh I don't associate with geese
01:29:40 <fowl> My chicken friends are as low as I'll stoop
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01:30:19 <hppavilion[2]> Huh. I seem to remember earendel participating in discussion at some point.
01:31:00 <fowl> hppavilion[2]: I dont have flash plugins on my phone
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01:37:10 <\oren\> I seem to remember hearing the word "entonces" in spanish
01:38:47 <mad> I think it means something like "so then"
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01:40:40 <augur> mad: english is analytic too. analytic is about syntax, agglutinating is about morphology
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01:41:02 <augur> as for compounding, agglutinating generally isnt about compound words. its about affixes
01:41:26 <augur> and english affixes have very well-defined borders
01:41:48 <mad> not compared to, say, japanese
01:42:00 <augur> i'd say they're about the same on that
01:42:19 <mad> or I guess chinese which is hard to beat
01:42:27 <augur> chinese has basically no affixes
01:42:35 <fowl> I'm working on a programming language but am afraid to show it off because it looks a lot like smalltalk
01:42:35 <augur> so chinese isnt a good comparison
01:42:55 <augur> english might be marginally more prone to morphophonological processes than japanese is, tho
01:43:11 <augur> at least standard japanese. i suspect dialects have more morphophonology going on
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01:44:49 <mad> well, chinese has tons of compound words
01:44:57 <mad> which I guess isn't really the same as affixes
01:45:38 <mad> what about -zi words, does -zi count as an affix?
01:46:06 <augur> there are maybe a handful of affixes in chinese, but very few
01:46:26 <mad> or like, -ren compounds
01:46:34 <augur> i'd be surprised if there were more than affixes tho
01:47:06 <augur> more than 20 affixes
01:47:41 <mad> I guess you could say that chinese affixes aren't pure affixes, they also have a vocabulary meaning
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01:48:32 <augur> whether its an affix or not is determined entirely by whether its bound or not
01:48:44 <mad> and you could say that about a lot of chinese's grammar, most of its grammar words also have a vocabulary meaning
01:48:49 <mad> like how it does prepositions
01:49:53 <augur> well prepositions are words
01:50:22 <mad> yeah they're definitely free words in chinese
01:50:24 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> Huh. I seem to remember earendel participating in discussion at some point. <-- yes, he seemed to be making an effort a few times.
01:50:36 <mad> well, deciding whether stuff is bound in chinese is harder, because stuff doesn't really bind phonologically in phonological words
01:51:07 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> What paradigms have never been used for golphing? <-- . o O ( XML? )
01:51:12 <mad> morphemes are really easy to split in chinese, words are hard
01:51:27 <mad> kindof the reverse situation of a typical european language
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01:54:07 <oerjan> <fowl> I'm working on a programming language but am afraid to show it off because it looks a lot like smalltalk <-- ais523 has the same problem with Feather *ducks*
01:54:58 <shachaf> oerjan: now you're using fowl language
01:55:12 <shachaf> hm, that might be ambiguous
01:55:12 <augur> mad: phonological fusion isnt a good indication of boundness
01:55:32 <augur> english has lots of inter-word phonological processes (as do many, if not most, languages)
01:55:35 <shachaf> i was talking about "*ducks*" but in retrospect "Feather" is a fowl language and so is fowl's language
01:55:44 <mad> augur : I guess the case for english being agglutinating is helped by the fact that many of the typical european more messy morphemes have been dropped
01:55:45 <augur> boundness is a morphosyntactic issue
01:56:22 <augur> mad: indeed. english is mostly agglutinating. fusion and suppletion are (universally, i think) more common as the words are more common
01:56:22 <mad> most (but not all!) of the weird germanic plurals have been dropped
01:56:38 <mad> case is mostly gone
01:56:41 <augur> so english has lots of suppletive and fusional morphology but its in the highly common words
01:56:48 <augur> same is true of turkish, which is canonically agglutinating
01:57:05 <mad> suppletive-anything argues against agglutinative
01:57:13 <augur> its not an either or
01:57:27 <augur> probably no language, or very few, is strictly one or the other
01:57:31 <mad> also english has a lot of irregular verbs
01:57:36 <mad> numerically
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01:57:43 <mad> they aren't very irregular
01:57:46 <mad> but there are lots of them
01:58:06 <mad> especially in the formation of the past and the past participle
01:58:09 <augur> there's some debate about whether they're truly irregular or not, actually
01:58:20 <augur> tho all of them are "irregular" in morphologically interesting ways
01:58:30 <augur> like using non-concatenative morphology, which is always fun
01:58:32 <mad> if english was really an agglutinative language it would have a lot fewer
01:58:47 <mad> japanese has like 3 irregular verbs overall
01:59:10 <augur> like i said, english is on the agglutinating end of the spectrum, not that it's uniformly agglutinating
01:59:22 <mad> non-concatenative = not agglutinative
01:59:42 <augur> that.. is also up for debate :)
01:59:49 <mad> I'd say compared to the world mean agglutinativeness, english isn't that agglutinative
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02:00:12 <augur> that might be true!
02:00:22 <augur> proportionally, english is majority agglutinating tho
02:00:48 <augur> its hard to count, too, because many english words are partially fusional partially agglutinating
02:00:56 <mad> well, most english inflections are somewhat concatenative but that's also true of fusional languages
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02:02:22 <augur> additionally, even in regular verbs, english is fusional, because like almost all indo-european languages, tense and person are coded in one morpheme
02:02:34 <augur> even if its a regular affix
02:02:51 <augur> i dont know if there's a good way to quantify these things, tbh
02:02:53 <mad> generally the average fusional language has tons of inflections that are basically concatenating something but there complications like suppletive etc
02:03:11 <mad> this is a good description of english
02:03:23 <mad> it just has less inflections than other european languages overall
02:03:37 <mad> but the inflections it does have aren't that regular
02:04:10 <mad> well, I see it as a 2d classification
02:04:21 <mad> one dimension is amount of inflection
02:04:31 <mad> and the other dimension is how regular that inflection is
02:04:42 <augur> no i understand, but i mean, it's hard to measure things
02:04:59 <augur> i mean, look, english has a lot of regular verbs, right
02:05:02 <mad> so amount of inflection goes: isolative - analytic - synthetic - polysynthetic
02:05:24 <augur> that use the -s affix for 3rd person present tense, yeah?
02:05:36 <augur> singular, in particular
02:05:48 <mad> and then agglutinative means that the inflections are very regular and concatenative, and fusional means that the inflections are not very regular and concatenative
02:06:12 <augur> so how do we measure the contribution of this affix, which is fusional?
02:06:21 <mad> augur : yes but it interacts with tense
02:06:27 <augur> its an affix, so it should contribute positively to an agglutination measure
02:06:37 <augur> but its fusional so it should contribute positively to a fusion measure
02:06:46 <mad> and it's suppletive for like 2 or 3 verbs (to be, to have...)
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02:07:29 <augur> so i think defining these metrics is non-trivial. im sure it can be done, in various ways, but its hard to know how to compare languages beyond intuition
02:07:43 <mad> likewise, plural is -s but there are also some suppletive plurals
02:08:13 <mad> if english was agglutinative it wouldn't have the suppletive plurals
02:08:27 <augur> again, you cant just say "if english was agglutinative"
02:08:34 <augur> this is a spectrum
02:08:44 <mad> as agglutinative as turkish or japanese
02:09:05 <mad> or other languages typically called 'agglutinative'
02:09:12 <augur> sure, if english was as agglutinating as those languages it would be like those languages
02:09:48 <augur> anyway this is a silly conversation
02:10:41 <mad> english is agglutinating if you compare it to, say, german, but that's like calling trump 'poor' by comparing him to bill gates
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02:11:29 <augur> i would say english is more like turkish and japanese than it is like french in terms of agglutination
02:11:29 <mad> like, I object to calling any european language agglutinative
02:11:48 <augur> but english is more isolating than turkish and japanese
02:12:08 <mad> english is also slightly more analytic than french
02:12:11 <augur> english nominal morphology is especially agglutinating
02:12:27 <mad> I don't think so
02:12:35 <augur> its highly agglutinating
02:12:51 <augur> derivationally, that is. the inflectional morphology is too but there's not much of that so
02:13:19 <mad> derivationally it has all sorts of kinks due to the fact that the derivations happened in many different languages
02:13:50 <augur> kinks are not an obstacle to being agglutinating
02:14:10 <augur> anyway, again, unless we have a measure of agglutination, there's only subjective intuition here
02:14:28 <mad> hmm, I've seen a classification of this
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02:16:52 <mad> something like (group - word - morpheme) (syllable - phoneme - feature), figure out which units on the left side line up with borders of which unit on the right side
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02:17:38 <mad> on an especially clean-cut language like chinese, the lining up happens on the smallest meaning unit (morpheme) and the largest phonetic unit (syllable)
02:18:28 <mad> so chinese can be said to have groups [ words [ morphemes=syllables [ phomemes [ features
02:19:03 <mad> a slightly less clean cut language like japanese has groups [words [ morphemes [ syllables [ phonemes [ features
02:20:38 <mad> you could say that as
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02:21:35 <mad> (1) what's the smallest unit of meaning that syllables don't straddle (2) what's the smallest unit of pronounciation that morphemes don't straddle
02:22:07 <mad> japanese is (1) morphemes (2) syllables
02:24:38 <mad> mongolian is less clean - syllables straddle morphemes but not word boundaries, morphemes straddle phonemes but not features
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02:26:32 <mad> english is less clean still - syllable match word boundaries, morphemes straddle everything including features
02:27:06 <mad> french is the least clean and can have multiple words in a single syllable, and morpheme boundaries are hard to isolate
02:28:27 <mad> ...ok that sucked and didn't come across, sorry
02:29:13 <mad> plus it's not a very good classification for agglutinativeness anyways (which doesn't match very well with this and is much more accurately described as "irregularity" I think)
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02:47:21 <oerjan> ent0nces: you should fix your connection hth
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02:48:15 <oerjan> well that was pretty good timing
02:49:01 <shachaf> also what happened to <oerjan> afk
02:49:09 <oerjan> shachaf: i was afk hth
02:49:37 <oerjan> this shockingly didn't last longer than until i'd made some food.
02:52:41 -!- ent0nces has joined.
02:53:21 <oerjan> ent0nces: you should fix your connection hth
02:57:24 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:00:01 <oerjan> afaict entonces automatically rejoins every 9 minutes, and then pings out as if eir client doesn't respond to pings at all.
03:00:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
03:01:50 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b ent0nces!*@*$##fixyourconnection.
03:01:56 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
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03:08:11 <shachaf> oerjan: wow, your count was way off
03:12:00 <oerjan> shachaf: note that this is after last rejoin, not after pinging out hth
03:12:38 <oerjan> shachaf: YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG I CAN HOLD A 1 OKAY?
03:12:45 <ais523> ent0nces doesn't respond to ctcp version
03:12:53 <ais523> (he/she/it is online right now; I'm guessing it's a bot)
03:13:16 <oerjan> ais523: a bot not programmed to respond to pings? makes sense.
03:13:29 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
03:14:01 <oerjan> ais523: btw i snapped and banned *!*canaima@* yesterday hth
03:14:20 <oerjan> i am starting to wonder if all of these canaimans are one troll.
03:15:08 <oerjan> there have been canaimans who joined briefly, then left.
03:15:37 <oerjan> but anyway one of them (with several nicks) did get on our nerves.
03:15:49 <shachaf> am i an actor? rot, canaima
03:15:50 <ais523> oerjan: I feel the ban is justified but a redirect would make sense
03:15:55 <ais523> I just have no idea where to redirect to
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03:18:38 <shachaf> am i an ache, eh, canaima?
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03:27:41 <oerjan> htf did that happen, e's not used a _ before...
03:27:47 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
03:28:09 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b ent0nces!*@*$##fixyourconnection.
03:28:13 <shachaf> this is also a different host
03:28:27 <shachaf> actually it looks like they're changing host regularly
03:28:37 <oerjan> well i didn't put in the host anyway
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03:28:52 <shachaf> well maybe you can help me make canaima palindromes twh
03:29:35 <oerjan> shachaf: i got as far as "am i an accordion, noid roc canaima?"
03:30:02 <oerjan> actually then i tried adding para and things went even more downhill
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03:32:34 <shachaf> oerjan: you didn't reban hth
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03:32:47 <oerjan> well i was hoping the connection issue had been fixed
03:33:01 <shachaf> why did you start hoping that now
03:33:26 <oerjan> well it hasn't pinged out
03:33:39 <oerjan> i guess it doesn't recognize that it's already on
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03:36:00 <oerjan> let's see if a new one arrives at :41 or so
03:36:35 <oerjan> ent0nces_ only started pinging out when ent0nces joined
03:37:49 <oerjan> it started a couple minutes earlier
03:37:54 <shachaf> am i an acronym? YNOR, canaima?
03:39:04 <shachaf> "am i an accumulator? rot, alum UC" -- canaima
03:39:53 <oerjan> am i an acrobat, a tab or canaima?
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04:30:32 <\oren\> why the hell is the government sending me so much money?!
04:31:13 <\oren\> I'm not unemployed or anything
04:31:50 <\oren\> tax refund of seven thousand dollars, what the hell?!
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04:33:44 <mad> sounds like a calculation mistake
04:34:38 <\oren\> well they sent me a check. I hope not everyone's taxes were calculated like that, our overnment would go bankrupt
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04:37:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46846&oldid=44697 * 173.233.38.21 * (+76)
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04:42:42 <\oren\> Oh, never mind. apparently it's because I only worked from this fall this year, so my income was very low on an annual basis, or something...
04:43:01 <mad> yeah that would do it
04:44:08 <shachaf> \oren\: how can your government go bankrupt if they can make more CAD whenever they want hth
04:45:16 <\oren\> shachaf: well they have to buy the aluminum the loonies are made of, lol
04:47:04 <\oren\> hmm why doesn't the US government pay off its debt by printing more money
04:47:29 <\oren\> we always hear about trillion dollars of national debt on tv
04:47:31 <shachaf> "The coin is manufactured using a patented distinctive bi-metallic coin-locking mechanism.[2] The coins are estimated to last 20 years."
04:47:32 <mad> because that would probably trigger hyperinflation
04:47:40 <shachaf> i.e. longer than the patents
04:47:53 <shachaf> \oren\: well, what's wrong with having debt
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04:50:50 <mad> I dunno if US's problem is really that much debt
04:51:18 <\oren\> shachaf: it's better to pay for things up front than to borrow money
04:51:29 <mad> it's mostly a canard from the republicans specifically in the US case
04:51:39 <mad> like, I'm not saying that debt is good
04:52:24 <mad> slashing tax rates on the rich and starting a trillion dollar war on Iraq then complaining about debt.....
04:52:59 <mad> "look at this we're having deficits we have to slash education and welfare!
04:53:00 <\oren\> shachaf: borrowing money is like stealing bread from your future sel
04:53:32 <mad> if you borrow money and then spend it on infrastructure
04:53:56 <mad> then you have, say, 1 billion in debt but also 1 billion in infrastructure
04:54:36 <\oren\> right whereas the us spent trillions destroying other countries' infrastructure
04:57:44 <mad> what I don't understand
04:58:02 <mad> is how people who tried to get us into yet an other war in Iran
04:58:18 <mad> can live without any guilt over that
05:06:03 <shachaf> \oren\: but a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow
05:09:12 <shachaf> well, a dollar today is worth more than a dollar in ten years
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05:10:33 <\oren\> that seriously depends on what happens in the next ten years
05:12:36 <\oren\> if you borrow money for ten years you are taking a large risk that you may become unemployed, etc and be unable to pay the intest, then get charged large fees by evil rich people, and end up destitute
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05:14:36 <\oren\> better to pay today and be a free man, than to promise payment and be reduced to a slave
05:15:14 <shachaf> who said anything about interest
05:20:37 <\oren\> uhhh, evryone I've ever seen offering me some loan?
05:21:47 <shachaf> i said a dollar today is worth more than a dollar in ten years
05:25:21 <hppavilion[2]> A programming language based on request-response rather than a single entity
05:25:31 <\oren\> right but a dollar is worth more if you have $1000 than if you have $100,000
05:28:16 <shachaf> maybe? what does that have to do with it?
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05:30:25 <\oren\> so you'd better be sure that you'll still have the money in 10 years,
05:31:26 <\oren\> or else the $100 loan you took out 10 years ago may be making you lose your home
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05:35:08 <\oren\> iow, a dollar today is only *likely* to be worth more. it's encumbered by great risk
05:35:58 <\oren\> that you'll lose your ability to pay it
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05:39:25 <\oren\> specifically, lose your ability to pay it and still pay for rent, food and transport
05:41:19 <shachaf> if you think borrowing money is such a bad deal then you should get into the business of lending money
05:45:43 <\oren\> I prefer to make money by honest and moral means
05:47:21 <shachaf> i thought your job involved writing software?
05:51:17 <\oren\> it doesn't involve exploiting my position as a holder of substantial money to extract more money from people who have less of it than me
05:53:06 <shachaf> but you get to wear a fancy hat
05:53:57 <\oren\> I wear an ushanka in cold weather does that count?
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06:51:06 <oerjan> 22 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 20999ms
06:51:38 <izabera> then i messed up something because apache is up but i can't ping it
06:58:40 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe the 23rd packet would've made it
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10:40:09 <Melvar> I wonder, does jq count as an esoteric language when used for something besides its intended purpose?
10:40:50 <Melvar> Thinking about it, the raw input/output and null input options argue against that.
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14:35:59 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen gregor ever
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15:15:03 <impomatic> There's a Core War tournament at DEF CON this year http://silverwingedseraph.net/def-con-24-0x20th-anniversary-core-war-competition
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15:48:59 <b_jonas> Do we have an RFC 1345 encoder script in HackEgo? It would be sufficiently eso.
15:53:02 <Melvar> `` jq -n '0 | recurse(. + 1)'
15:53:20 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: jq: command not found
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16:01:29 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.26, BuildID[sha1]=0x5bb332752cc304fa7fbb838bdf7d7766ffc7a8a1, stripped
16:03:17 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:03:52 <Melvar> `fetch https://github.com/stedolan/jq/releases/download/jq-1.5/jq-linux64
16:06:04 <Melvar> `` mv jq-linux64 bin/jq
16:06:23 <Melvar> `` jq -n '0 | recurse(. + 1)'
16:06:24 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /hackenv/bin/jq: Permission denied
16:06:48 <Melvar> `` jq -n '0 | recurse(. + 1)'
16:06:50 <HackEgo> 0 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19 \ 20 \ 21 \ 22 \ 23 \ 24 \ 25 \ 26 \ 27 \ 28 \ 29 \ 30 \ 31 \ 32 \ 33 \ 34 \ 35 \ 36 \ 37 \ 38 \ 39 \ 40 \ 41 \ 42 \ 43 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 47 \ 48 \ 49 \ 50 \ 51 \ 52 \ 53 \ 54 \ 55 \ 56 \ 57 \ 58 \ 59 \ 60 \ 61 \ 62 \ 63 \ 64 \ 65 \ 66 \ 67 \ 68 \ 69 \ 70 \ 71 \
16:08:31 <Melvar> A json transforming language.
16:09:07 <Melvar> Which is neat because it feels so functional, like an arrow combinator dsl.
16:10:14 <Melvar> Or, as others I think have put it, “grep, sed, awk for JSON”.
16:15:08 <Melvar> `` findmnt -J | jq 'recurse(.children[]) | select(.source | startswith("/")) | del(.children)'
16:15:19 <HackEgo> findmnt: invalid option -- 'J' \ \ Usage: \ findmnt [options] \ findmnt [options] <device> | <mountpoint> \ findmnt [options] <device> <mountpoint> \ findmnt [options] [--source <device>] [--target <mountpoint>] \ \ Options: \ -s, --fstab search in static table of filesystems \ -m, --mtab search in table of mounted fi
16:19:58 <\oren\> i use jq a lot in my work... for some reason all my datasets are json
16:21:29 <\oren\> for automation i use python however
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17:52:18 <\oren\> what if you had two push down automata that could send signals to each other
17:53:39 <\oren\> the resulting system would be turing complete even though each component isn't
17:54:45 <\oren\> yes... i think that will be my next esolang
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18:51:58 <rdococ> what's the trope you get when an enemy loses all their HP but doesn't die?
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19:05:43 <xfix> Last Chance Hit Point, if you mean TV Tropes?
19:08:03 <izabera> this is literally the worst tragedy ever happened to me http://i.imgur.com/qyxpDKi.png
19:08:50 <xfix> There is no link, how you will follow it...
19:08:57 <xfix> That's the worst thing ever.
19:12:05 <izabera> i'm gonna find the uploader and sue them
19:14:38 <rdococ> xfix: that only means an attack can only kill it if it's already at 1 hp
19:14:55 <rdococ> I meant, when their HP is at 0 (or negative!) but they still attack
19:15:08 <rdococ> I wonder what negative hit points even mean
19:15:48 <rdococ> hppavilion[1], in a video game, what do you think negative hit points would mean
19:16:34 <rdococ> oh my god I can't help but laugh at that
19:16:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But it would mean purgatory. You have to play a stupid part of the game to get back to the main game
19:17:09 <rdococ> not necessarily, I mean if I were to make one, it'd mean, um
19:20:30 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: complex hitpoints are waaaaaaaaaaay more interesting
19:21:42 <rdococ> what does that mean? I mean, I kinda barely sort of ish understand what combinatory logic means, but quantum combinatory logic?
19:22:30 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's SK with the additional τ combinator, which takes two arguments and returns one with 50/50 probability
19:22:47 <rdococ> how would that improve hit points?
19:23:53 <rdococ> what about every hit is an instant KO and you just have to dodge a lot?
19:24:18 <rdococ> nah, it wouldn't be a random chance
19:24:44 <rdococ> avoiding damage would mean solving little minigames to survive... actually, Undertale is a perfect example
19:25:24 <rdococ> I had the idea of it being like a dance match, you would have to time the moves right to avoid attack
19:26:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: My biggest difficulty with QCL is that I can't find the bits in CCL
19:27:22 <rdococ> what's the difference between quantum and probabilistic?
19:27:49 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computing
19:28:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: In QC, you have superpositions (and entanglement). That means a qubit can be in a superposition of 1 and 0. PC doesn't allow superpositions.
19:29:00 <rdococ> but couldn't τ return a superposition?
19:29:56 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It could, but I think that some other combinator should do that
19:30:22 <hppavilion[1]> OK, Q takes two expressions and returns a superposition between them.
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19:31:33 <rdococ> I still don't fully understand S :p
19:31:35 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Wait, I think this system supports cloning ATM
19:32:04 <rdococ> what does substituting z into x and y even mean
19:32:23 <rdococ> what does xz even mean
19:32:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's like x(z) in classical notation, but it's more general
19:32:56 <rdococ> ((x z) (y z)), right...?
19:34:22 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The cool thing about curried functions is that they only take one argument, but they can return other functions that take more arguments
19:34:56 <Melvar> In a curried representation, those two are effectively the same thing.
19:34:59 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So if foo(x, y, z) = x+y+z, then if bar = curry(foo) then bar(x)(y)(z) = x+y+z
19:35:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So in classical notation (still curried, xz(yz) = x(z)(y(z))
19:37:05 <rdococ> S K K x = K x (K x) = x
19:37:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So the problem with SKQO is that you can clone a quantum state and observe it multiple times
19:38:02 <rdococ> is observing like the tau operator?
19:38:22 <rdococ> like O (Q x y) is equivalent to t x y?
19:40:09 <rdococ> how would you clone something?
19:40:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Or are you asking how you clone something in SKOQ despite it being banned in reality?
19:41:43 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: SOO like SKK; that's a combinator expression
19:42:17 <myname> just collapse on applying Q
19:42:41 <rdococ> or do you mean Q x y z?
19:43:04 <myname> yeah, Q x y z = (Q x y) z = either x z or y z
19:43:37 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That works better, I suppose. But how do we prevent cloning?
19:44:01 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Unless the Q "object" collapses all at once
19:44:25 <myname> well, i would make it so, i.e. S entangles states
19:44:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: So when the expression is collapsed once, it collapses everywhere
19:44:44 <myname> but you actually cannot define how they entangle
19:45:15 <hppavilion[1]> myname: e.g. is "for example", i.e. is "in other words"
19:45:27 <myname> like, how do you make a state out of Q x y that collapses to y when Q x y collapses to x?
19:45:55 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Well, probabilistically speaking, you just need a combinator like M
19:46:35 <hppavilion[1]> M(Qxy) = Qxy(Qxy), and unless we have the global collapse protection, that could be x(y)
19:46:48 <myname> you could actually make both S and $ where S entangles a Q as is and $ entangles it reversed
19:47:06 <rdococ> it's not the quantum stuff that hurts, it's the absense of parentheses
19:47:25 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Remember that application is left-associative and you'll be fine
19:47:55 <rdococ> are we trying to find out an equivalent to O?
19:48:08 <myname> i do think there is no need for O
19:48:19 <rdococ> hppavilion[1], do you mean M, or SKQ?
19:48:41 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Qxyz = xz|yz, because Qxy creates a superposition between x and y and applying a superposition collapses it
19:49:08 <rdococ> so it's like observing it?
19:50:40 <rdococ> I guess K (Q x y) z = Q x y, right?
19:53:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:53:44 <myname> my proposal: S a b (Q x y) = a (Q x y) (b (Q x y)) and $ a b (Q x y) = a (Q x y) (b (Q y x))
19:54:52 <rdococ> Q (K x) (K y) z = K x z | K y z = x|y, right?
19:56:23 <rdococ> but isn't Q a superposition?
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19:56:45 <rdococ> Q (K x) (K y) z = K x z or K y z = x or y, right?
19:56:50 <myname> what do you say x|y should be?
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19:56:55 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Wait, shouldn't applying a superposition to something yield another superposition?
19:59:09 <rdococ> that's my definition..?
19:59:22 <rdococ> where T is probabilistic x or y
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20:02:18 <myname> i don't get why it ignores X completely
20:03:42 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It extracts the argument and applies it to something else, it appears
20:04:24 * hppavilion[1] realizes that "X is a combinator" was a stupid thing to say
20:04:33 <myname> as i said, that'd be \y.\y.yKx
20:06:14 <myname> the first one was right
20:06:38 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But I have a feeling R is impossible, because it allows you to undo Q which could be used for cloning
20:39:29 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Something that'd be nice for neoletters is if arrows
20:39:47 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: ...if arrows properly connected with boxdrawing characters
20:40:03 <myname> "help me, premature ejaculation man" "i'm cuming!"
20:42:11 <quintopia> "just call me a premature ejaculation, because I'm coming early"
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20:48:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Python invader * New user account
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20:53:35 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: ill look into the arrow problem. i thought they already did connect
20:54:31 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But the vertical arrows do not connect with vertical boxdrawers
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21:11:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46847&oldid=46620 * Python invader * (+2091)
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21:22:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46848&oldid=46847 * Python invader * (-2092) /* See also */
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21:56:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46849&oldid=46769 * IAM * (+218) /* Last Half—Or Is It? */ new section
22:02:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46850&oldid=46835 * IAM * (-173)
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22:03:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46851&oldid=46849 * Quintopia * (+266) /* Last Half—Or Is It? */
22:14:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wizard: not found
22:14:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pirate: not found
22:14:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdo: not found
22:14:52 <HackEgo> char/Char is a prominent component of charcoal.
22:16:02 <b_jonas> `slashlearn glass/I can eat glass and it doesn't hurt me.
22:22:22 <Taneb> If I wanted a ticker tape printer for like amusing retro computing purposes
22:22:27 <Taneb> How would I go about looking for one
22:23:14 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:24:54 <b_jonas> Taneb: they're usually built into teletype or telex machines, not separate
22:25:17 <b_jonas> Taneb: there's a working one on display in Andrássy út here if you want to try it
22:25:52 <Taneb> b_jonas, I have 14 hours to apply on behalf of my uni's CS society for a grant
22:25:56 <Taneb> And I have no idea what to get
22:26:33 <b_jonas> Taneb: more beefy servers? or hard disks? they're always useful
22:26:48 <Taneb> We have more servers than we have places to put servers
22:26:57 <b_jonas> Taneb: um, then apply for more place?
22:27:12 <Taneb> That's normally done as an ongoing thing and this is a one-time thing grant
22:31:19 <Taneb> Or done as an arrangement between us and the uni, which is a different thing againb
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22:33:28 <Taneb> I'd like to get something cool we can display and do fun and pretty looking things with
22:35:01 <fizzie> Get a Cray XT5, I think they print those fancy panels on it as part of the deal.
22:35:09 <fizzie> At least I assume so, because they always seem to have some.
22:35:30 <fizzie> (s/XT5/whatever number is current/)
22:35:53 <fizzie> Admittedly that would also need a place to put it in.
22:37:38 <fizzie> Hey, the CSC upgraded Sisu (a Cray XC40) actually has pretty front tiles, unlike the previous CSC ones.
22:37:59 <fizzie> https://research.csc.fi/documents/48467/84606/sisu_phase2_1b.jpg <- see
22:38:25 <fizzie> Northern lights, even though the machine is in a place where you can see those maybe once a year if that.
22:38:42 <Taneb> fizzie, that looks a little above our price range I'm afraid
22:39:36 <fizzie> Compare to CSC's previous (XT4/XT5) one: https://s3.amazonaws.com/gs-geo-images/296fd8fd-0303-4b26-b5e0-ce6d3368b0c0_l.jpg
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22:41:19 <fizzie> It's not really a "CS" thing, but if you can't think of anything, you could always get a fancy 3D printer, since then you can print whatever.
22:44:42 <prooftechnique> Oh, you could get a steno machine. Some of those have ticker tape
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22:46:47 <fizzie> Someone -- I forget who -- got one of the http://formlabs.com/ printers at their office. It does the thing where you have some liquid that's hardened by a laser, instead of squeezing melty stuff out through a nozzle.
22:47:21 <prooftechnique> That was one of those things that I wanted to back on KS, but I didn't have the money :(
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22:53:17 <boily> b_jonas: b_jellonas. interesting reference you slashlearned there.
22:54:03 <boily> prooftechellonique.
22:54:31 <HackEgo> I can eat glass and it doesn't hurt me.
22:54:43 <boily> ↑ it's used as a minimal translateable sentence to showcase different languages and their grammatical features.
22:55:07 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Can_Eat_Glass
22:55:34 <b_jonas> boily: http://www.columbia.edu/~fdc/utf8/
22:55:48 <boily> also, Harvard students were involved.
22:55:51 <b_jonas> boily: I think I learned that one from someone on this channel recently
22:56:38 <FireFly> prooftechnique: inget jag skulle rekommendera
22:57:43 <boily> J'peux manger d'la vitre, ça m'fait pas mal.
22:59:51 <hppavilion[1]> I currently have Logic, Approximation, and Insanity, but Approximation doesn't feel right
23:00:10 <prooftechnique> Unless it's modal logic. That's more of a rosé type of thing
23:00:19 <boily> Constructivist Insanity.
23:00:38 <b_jonas> boily: ouch, that's too many apostrophes for me
23:03:12 <boily> spoken French drops schwas, clustering consonants together with great disrespect to phonotactics hth
23:03:19 <prooftechnique> Amusingly, most of the ensuing dialogue after such a demonstration would likely also be apostrophe
23:03:36 <b_jonas> boily: well sure, but you don't write that by dropping the e usually
23:05:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:05:28 <boily> b_jonas: it is the case.
23:05:43 <boily> https://clyp.it/fdgndqrn
23:09:14 <boily> we have vowels! we're just stingy about spending them all in one go :P
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23:10:39 <prooftechnique> For a language with 17 vowels, that economy seems unnecessary
23:11:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:12:38 <prooftechnique> Also, doesn't what you said mean "I can eat the window"?
23:13:06 -!- jix has joined.
23:13:16 <prooftechnique> I only remember french from high school, but I thought glass was le verre
23:13:27 <b_jonas> prooftechnique: no, window is “la fenêtre” I think
23:14:17 <coppro> boily: don't the French leave some of their schwas in?
23:14:43 <coppro> quebec is' just like j'pns
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23:42:56 <hppavilion[1]> It has absurd startup times, but after that is identical to a Harvard Architecture
23:44:56 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically a Harvard architecture- a control unit, an ALU, data memory, instruction memory, and I/O with buses between the CU and all other components
23:45:20 <prooftechnique> I'm waiting for the part where it's not a Harvard architecture with a fatal flaw
23:46:36 <hppavilion[1]> In addition, however, there's a unit called the "Boot Unit" or "Memory Unit" with one or more read buses from the Data Memory, an equal number of buses to the instruction memory, and a read bus/receiver bus from the Control Unit
23:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> On boot, the CU boots a small script from the data memory, sends a message to the BU to transfer a much larger block to the instruction memory (the BU is specially designed for transferring large amounts of data quickly) and awaits its completion, then continues like a normal Harvard Arhcitecture
23:51:03 <hppavilion[1]> This really only works efficiently if the OS itself executes programs that run on the OS, as opposed to the hardware. Which may or may not be how things work anyway; I don't really know.
23:52:18 <hppavilion[1]> Or is this just Modified Harvard Architecture? I didn't think it was, but a part of the wikipedia page on normal Harvard Architecture suggests it might be
23:52:49 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: Harvard Architectures are much faster than Von Neumann architectures
23:53:18 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: But they suffer from the fatal flaw of not being able to, well, boot (without an external operator)
23:54:38 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: The original Harvard Architecture needed someone to physically load programs which were COMPLETELY separate from the data memory.
23:55:07 <hppavilion[1]> Brainfuck is a Harvard architecture; it has a program and data, and they are entirely separate
23:55:42 <hppavilion[1]> Brainfuck where the first len(prog) bytes of the tape hold the program itself (and you can modify it at runtime) are a Von Neumann architecture
23:56:32 <hppavilion[1]> Brainfuck with an instruction that writes the current byte of memory to a particular part of the program is a Modified Harvard Architecture by my understanding
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23:57:43 <hppavilion[1]> Brainfuck with an instruction to transfer a large quantity of memory into the program at a specified location (something like K, which appends the tape to the program) would be whatever this thing is called
00:00:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan's hostname contains "hagbart" which looks like "h4gbird"
00:00:44 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: We're on to you. Your clever disguise will fool us no longer
00:03:08 <hppavilion[1]> DAM (deterministic access memory) is /so/ much better than RAM :P
00:05:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
00:10:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: itym hagb4rd.
00:10:45 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure why the server's named that, although it's been there for far longer than the troll.
00:10:46 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Your confusion techniques will not stop me
00:11:13 -!- Elronnd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:11:17 <oerjan> i suspect it may be a children's literature character, though, several of the other servers are.
00:11:44 -!- Elronnd has joined.
00:11:57 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Never heard of a hagbard, and neither has anybody else in the room
00:12:13 -!- tromp_ has joined.
00:12:34 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: it's probably a norwegian children literature
00:12:36 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: incidentally, who knows if e's doing it on purpose. i think one of the reasons i didn't notice earendel earlier was because i confused em with one of Elronnd's alternative nicks.
00:12:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hagbar_t_
00:13:28 <oerjan> it could be a comic character. i vaguely think there's a danish one by that name.
00:14:17 <\oren\> http://www.smurf.dk/Henrik%20&%20Hagbart/henrikoghagbart.html
00:14:25 <oerjan> oh hm the danes call hägar the horrible hagbard
00:15:15 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So do you have any thoughts on the whatever-it's-called architecture?
00:15:33 <oerjan> um i'm a bit forward-logged
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00:22:06 <hppavilion[1]> A good model for an esoteric processor would be the "horribly tangled block" model
00:23:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it means that i'd skipped past that discussion because you started pinging me hth
00:23:33 <oerjan> i think my thoughts are about "meh", alas
00:24:17 <oerjan> also, i have the power to travel through time at the huge speed of 1 s/s hth
00:24:55 <oerjan> (equivalent to c in natural units)
00:25:44 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I do not want to know what you are trying to construct
00:26:09 <oerjan> b_jonas: you realize that doing so many commands at once increase the chance they'll time out hth
00:26:55 <b_jonas> oerjan: I can retry the ones that time out
00:27:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Recommended by pi out of 5 doctors under duress! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Chemnitz (not Karl-Marx-Stadt).
00:28:07 <b_jonas> fungot, give HackEgo a swift kick from me
00:28:30 <oerjan> fizzie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
00:28:36 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: This happens every once in a while
00:29:05 <prooftechnique> I have been on this channel for years, and I have never not been able to fungot
00:37:35 <HackEgo> a-é-ro-g-liss-e-ur. If you mention eels, you'll get smacked with one of them in a most unappropriate manner.
00:37:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `.d: not found
00:37:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fungoot: not found
00:37:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pint: not found
00:37:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: reboot: not found
00:38:35 <HackEgo> a-é-ro-g-liss-e-ur. If you mention eels, you'll get smacked with one of them in a most unappropriate manner.
00:39:02 * oerjan smacks b_jonas with an eel ~~~~~~~~~
00:39:04 <HackEgo> vim equals to approximately ccxxxviin.
00:39:30 -!- hydraz has changed nick to him.
00:39:51 -!- him has changed nick to hydraz.
00:40:37 <oerjan> `learn Møøse is Norwegian for moss.
00:40:39 -!- hydraz has changed nick to cne.
00:40:42 <HackEgo> Learned 'møøse': Møøse is Norwegian for moss.
00:40:51 -!- cne has changed nick to hydraz.
00:55:20 <oerjan> <\oren\> the resulting system would be turing complete even though each component isn't <-- hm because each of them provides a stack?
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00:58:36 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No, you said "hp", so now I'm here <-- you must have a lot of fun in gaming channels
01:06:53 * oerjan notices hppavilion[1] completely misunderstanding quantum computing in the logs and sidles away carefully.
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01:09:45 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] Re: quantum computing, you cannot invent things on top of something you completely fail to understand hth
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01:18:46 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> myname: e.g. is "for example", i.e. is "in other words" <-- actually i.e. is "that is" hth
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01:26:10 * oerjan sees pre-mature jokes in the logs
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01:30:26 <Moon_> damn the bot is off
01:30:27 <HackEgo> Moon is a person, not an unretroreflectorey object.
01:30:55 <oerjan> it _is_ the slowest bot in Mexico, you know
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01:50:43 <boily> @tell Gregor IEUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
01:51:21 <boily> @tell Gregor Please disregard previous guttural yell hth
01:52:00 <oerjan> @tell Gregor no don't, there are other problems.
01:52:37 <oerjan> boily: you can redirect it at fizzie hth
01:52:37 <boily> fizzie: WHARAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHGLRGHGHGHRHGHFHGHRGHLGLGLGLGLGLGL!
01:53:32 <boily> meanwhile, the 16.04 upgrade killed python support in my vim install. much rejoicing...
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02:01:02 <boily> ah fungot. got the Dreaded Vietnam Reference Error.
02:02:15 <boily> trying to compile the PDF, got the vietnam ldf error. I think int-e was afflicted by it last week.
02:02:44 <boily> applying a round of forceful package updates that include some latexy stuff. imh.
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02:14:39 <boily> got it. simply had to 's/vietnam/vietnamese/' the babel \usepackage definition, \selectlanguage references, and then `make clean` to remove the corrupted .aux files.
02:15:15 <mad> is the name of the language 'vietnamese' or 'viet'
02:16:11 <boily> as far as LaTeX is concerned, it is now always 'vietnamese'.
02:16:19 <mad> I mean in english
02:16:48 <mad> does 'nam' mean country or something like that?
02:18:57 <prooftechnique> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Vietnam#Origin_of_the_.22Vietnam.22
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02:21:31 <mad> so it's congante with chinese 'nán'
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02:46:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 36m 18s ago: Re: quantum computing, you cannot invent things on top of something you completely fail to understand hth
02:46:23 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: JUST TRY AND STOP ME HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
02:48:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i don't have to, your construction will collapse by itself into inconsistency hth
02:49:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OTOH, the reason I haven't been working on QCL is because I don't understand QC at all, and I didn't want to create something stupid
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03:30:29 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Woudl I be correct to hypothesize Haskell is based on the Category of Functions?
03:30:56 <coppro> category of functions?
03:31:55 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: I was wondering if a language like haskell based on e.g. allegories would be possible
03:32:03 <oerjan> Hask is a category somewhat similar to Set, so its morphisms are functions.
03:32:31 <oerjan> Set being what the "category of functions" is called.
03:32:48 <oerjan> since it's named by its objects instead of morphisms
03:33:34 <oerjan> they're both "cartesian closed" (although that may be modulo some bottoms in the Hask case), which means you can put lambda calculus in them.
03:34:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But could one have a language based on a category somewhat similar to e.g. Grp?
03:35:18 <oerjan> if you think you can replace "category" by "allegory", then you are using too much allegory in your thinking hth
03:35:39 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm just asking questions about what /can/ be done
03:36:13 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: yeah, I think you could have a language based on a different category.
03:36:13 <oerjan> well Grp is probably not cartesian closed, although maybe it'd be good for _reversible_ computations.
03:36:37 <oerjan> i think in a sense logical languages might be based on Rel?
03:36:39 <tswett> oerjan: well, not all group homomorphisms are invertible.
03:36:47 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: such as Grp.
03:37:25 <oerjan> tswett: hm right. you want the morphisms to be invertible.
03:37:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well you're solving relations...
03:37:56 <tswett> So that would be a language based on a groupoid.
03:38:02 <oerjan> prooftechnique: Ab still doesn't have invertible morphisms.
03:38:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OK. What would things like functors (which I'm just beginning to understand) be like?
03:39:59 <oerjan> i haven't thought too deeply about that.
03:40:24 <hppavilion[1]> Is the Category of Grammars (a) a thing and (b) a thing that has had any research into it?
03:40:54 <tswett> Depends on what kind of grammar you mean.
03:41:04 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: do you know what a homomorphism is, in general?
03:41:08 <oerjan> there was this time i wondered if definite clause grammars in Prolog were a notation for monads in Rel. i didn't get to the bottom of it.
03:41:19 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Barely. I'm still trying to grasp all of this
03:41:32 <oerjan> (they're used similarly to the State monad in haskell)
03:42:04 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What's a homomorphism in the Haskell context?
03:42:34 <tswett> Well, the question would be "a homomorphism of what?"
03:42:42 <tswett> A homomorphism of types in Haskell would be a function, yeah.
03:43:09 <oerjan> oh btw my DCG comment was unrelated to the grammar question.
03:43:56 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I imagine that in Gram (the category of grammars), homomorphisms would be ways of transforming between grammars?
03:44:07 <tswett> They certainly would be, yes.
03:44:30 <tswett> Then the only question is, what does "transforming between grammars" mean?
03:44:41 <oerjan> tswett: i think you mean morphism. "homomorphism" is restricted to more concrete set objects, i think.
03:44:54 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I suppose I have to find the structure that they preserve?
03:45:08 <tswett> oerjan: I am in fact talking specifically about algebraic structures.
03:45:28 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: sounds right. Now, the thing about homomorphisms is...
03:45:49 <oerjan> tswett: well i'm not sure haskell types are algebraic structures. well, i guess they're CPOs in some interpretation.
03:46:00 <tswett> Usually, an algebraic structure consists of a bunch of elements, and a handful of operators.
03:46:12 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: define a grammar
03:46:17 <tswett> A homomorphism is a function from the elements of structure A to the elements of structure B, which respects the operators.
03:47:00 <tswett> If you want to define a "category of Xs", it would be good if you could figure out what the elements are, and what the operators are.
03:47:32 <coppro> a category does not need an algebraic structure or operators
03:47:32 <coppro> order categories, for instance
03:47:40 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: Wikipedially, a set of named rules that declare a set of alternative sequences of terminal symbols and/or other rules that a string can match
03:48:00 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: well I've worked with languages over arbitrary algebras
03:48:07 <coppro> and I think what you end up wanting is basically equation systems
03:48:27 <coppro> but what does a morphism between equation systems look like? You could, of course, define a category of equivalences, or perhaps inclusion in generated sets
03:48:46 <tswett> Let me see if I can decide what I think a homomorphism of grammars is.
03:48:57 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: now, I have a suggestion.
03:49:09 <coppro> tswett: they aren't algebraic structures, so homomorphism doesn't make sense on them
03:49:13 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: if you want to apply category theory to grammars, consider looking at *each* grammar as being a category.
03:49:42 <hppavilion[1]> And, I suppose, the morphisms are between dependencies?
03:49:58 <hppavilion[1]> So if a ::= b c, then there's an arrow from a to b and from a to c?
03:50:03 <tswett> The objects of the category consist of all strings. The morphisms are the ways of getting from one string to another by following the rules.
03:50:54 <tswett> So the way I'd do it is, if a ::= b | c, then that gives you arrows b -> a and c -> a.
03:51:11 <tswett> And also arrows dbe -> dae, and so forth.
03:54:44 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I'm getting more of a Thue vibe from that, rather than grammars
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03:55:03 <tswett> You realize that Thue is based on grammars, right?
03:55:38 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: But I thought grammars just represented "this does fit with my language" or "this does not fit with my language"
03:56:03 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: you have to formalize them somehow
03:56:08 <tswett> A grammar is a list of Thue-like rules that produces a language.
03:56:22 <tswett> A language is any collection of strings.
03:56:31 <coppro> I could step in and apply the stuff I used in my master's thesis here, but that might be overkill
03:56:36 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: So then does a grammar take a string of input?
03:57:07 <tswett> Nope. A grammar is a list of rules that can be applied in various different ways.
03:57:17 <tswett> Once you're done applying the rules, you end up with a string.
03:57:42 <tswett> For any given string, if there exists at least one way of using the rules of the grammar to produce that string, then that string is in the language.
03:57:43 <coppro> well, a grammar is both
03:57:51 <tswett> If it's impossible to get that string, then the string is not in the language.
03:58:08 <coppro> formally, a grammar is just an equation system over a monoid
03:58:29 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Oh, it looks like I was thinking of Automata Theory
03:59:10 <coppro> an equation system is a set of k polynomials in the powerset algebra over the underlying algebra and with k variables, each of which corresponds to a polynomial
03:59:31 <tswett> coppro: is this your master's thesis stuff?
04:00:11 <coppro> tswett: my thesis was applying techniques from algebra & language theory to try to gain insight into graph minors structure
04:00:46 <tswett> It almost seems like everyone's got a relevant thesis for every topic.
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04:00:51 <tswett> Like, a while back, I said...
04:01:13 <coppro> this is the first time I recall a conversation in here where I was able to bring in something from my thesis
04:01:27 <coppro> though if anyont wants to learn about quasi-ordering and graph minors, I'm down :P
04:02:03 <tswett> "Hey, let's talk about sequences S that have the property that for all substrings T of S, there exists a number n such that every substring of S of length n has T as a substring."
04:02:14 <tswett> And then someone else here said, "Oh yeah, I did my Ph.D. thesis on those."
04:03:34 <tswett> I looked at their Ph.D. thesis, and sure enough...
04:03:42 <tswett> I mean, that wasn't the exact topic of the thesis.
04:04:02 <tswett> But it was definitely closely related.
04:04:58 <coppro> I'll link you mine. It's very dense, though!
04:05:17 <coppro> https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/bitstream/handle/10012/9648/Hunt_Sean.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y
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04:07:29 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: So the category of /automata/ was what I was going for.
04:08:47 <prooftechnique> Well, just get a grip on those, and you'll have mastered all of category theory
04:10:23 * oerjan "should" learn about Kan extensions some day
04:11:47 <prooftechnique> oerjan: The way I think about it, once you've done that, you can just kind of stop. You technically understand everything, so the rest is just computation, and that's what grad students are for
04:13:15 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I think category of grammars is more interesting than Category of Automata xD
04:13:57 <tswett> oerjan: is it "Cantor systems, dimension groups and Bratteli diagrams"?
04:14:21 <hppavilion[1]> OK, um... BNF is for Context-Free Grammars... But I don't see how it fits with the definition of grammars where things are translated...
04:15:05 <tswett> BNF is a sort of shorthand for formal grammars.
04:15:10 <tswett> Suppose you've got this BNF rule:
04:15:37 <tswett> That's shorthand for all of these formal grammar rules:
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04:15:57 <tswett> (a -> BC) (B -> bB) (B ->) (C -> cC) (C ->)
04:19:22 <tswett> `learn Numbers: 0, 848, 1344, 1696, 1969, 2192, _, 2544, 2688, 2817, _, 3040, _, _, 3313, 3392, ...
04:19:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'number': Numbers: 0, 848, 1344, 1696, 1969, 2192, _, 2544, 2688, 2817, _, 3040, _, _, 3313, 3392, ...
04:19:40 <tswett> `culprits wisdom/number
04:20:08 <tswett> `run mv wisdom/number{,s}
04:20:14 <HackEgo> Numbers: 0, 848, 1344, 1696, 1969, 2192, _, 2544, 2688, 2817, _, 3040, _, _, 3313, 3392, ...
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04:23:11 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Hm... would Thue form a good example of the basis of Grammar Programming, the same way λ-calculus is the basis for FP?
04:23:38 <tswett> I think I'd say the notion of a formal grammar is what would form that basis.
04:23:44 <tswett> Of course, Thue is very close to the notion of a formal grammar.
04:24:57 <oerjan> tswett: i think that was my "masters" not my "PhD" thesis (quotes because they're approximate translations). the PhD itself is not online, although 3 journal articles from it are.
04:25:40 <oerjan> (well, some of them may be paywalled.)
04:28:13 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Would adding strange features to a grammar language be acceptable? e.g. a way to extend the input string while processing it?
04:28:54 <tswett> Like, to allow the user to enter more data after the program has already started running?
04:30:26 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: And one rule may have the body "H", cw(", World!")
04:30:42 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: So it would match "H" then append ", World!" to the string that it is processing
04:31:12 <tswett> Well, lemme say these things.
04:32:01 <tswett> A plain-old-regular formal grammar is simply based on replacing this string with that string. That's enough for Turing-completeness. Adding additional features will make the language less elegant, so you'd better have a good reason for doing it.
04:32:17 <tswett> Also, formal grammars aren't usually considered as *having* an input string.
04:32:24 <tswett> Rather, the input string is always the same thing: "S".
04:32:57 <tswett> With that, unfortunately, I've got to go to bed.
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05:23:17 <hppavilion[1]> OPEN PROBLEM OF MATHEMATICS: Is it possible to explain Category Theory in a way that's easy to understand?
05:23:50 <mad> haven't seen a way yet
05:26:51 <shachaf> formal proofs are often not easy to understand
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06:56:29 <izabera> category theory is set theory's set theory
06:56:46 <izabera> did i win a million dollars or something?
06:56:57 <oerjan> yes, but only zimbabwean ones
06:57:08 <izabera> better than nothing i guess
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08:00:10 <rdococ> Qxyz = xz|yz makes more sense
08:00:19 <rdococ> collapsing the superposition
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08:03:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It has been suggested by oerjan that we don't try to build on things we do not understand
08:04:06 <hppavilion[1]> Is there an efficient binary representation of the surreal numbers?
08:04:21 <rdococ> wait, can't there be superpositions with a higher chance to collapse to one than the other?
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08:05:45 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I figured it'd be something like Q(Qxy)y for a 75% chance of y, else x
08:05:49 <rdococ> would Q x (Q x y) z be x|x|y or x|Qxy?
08:06:37 <rdococ> Qxyz is strange because it's non-deterministic
08:07:39 <hppavilion[1]> But we could have some sort of O loop that terminates when it observes deterministic thing
08:08:04 <rdococ> iteration in combinatory logic?
08:08:59 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It kind of has to support iteration, even if it's interpreted
08:10:04 <rdococ> I just had an epic idea...I think...maybe...?
08:10:14 <rdococ> a programming language using combinatory logic...?
08:11:35 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: How about λ-calculus:Combinatory logic::rho-calculus:?
08:13:56 <FreeFull> Why don't esoteric languages feature complex numbers and quaternions more often?
08:14:01 <rdococ> lambda calculus is to combinatory logic as rho calculus is to ?
08:14:39 <rdococ> " rho-calculus is a formalism intended to combine the higher-order facilities of lambda calculus with the pattern matching of term rewriting."
08:14:57 <rdococ> so wouldn't this new logical system be combinatory logic with term rewriting...?
08:15:51 <rdococ> what does that even mean
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11:24:00 <shachaf> oerjan: so in palisade you can always put a line between two 3s
11:24:09 <shachaf> any other heuristics like that?
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12:00:25 <boily> tswett: tswellott. numbers?
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12:51:26 <int-e> shachaf: in my experience palisade tends to be dominated by counting and tracing paths, with very few patterns
12:51:54 <shachaf> counting and tracing paths?
13:04:37 <int-e> counting area sizes... eliminating edges, and follow unique paths that often remain
13:06:26 <shachaf> I rarely see see unique paths except in trivial cases.
13:06:37 <shachaf> Maybe I'm not looking for the right thing.
13:12:40 <izabera> what to do when you find a different solution?
13:18:14 <fizzie> I didn't even know it was called that.
13:18:54 <fizzie> Oh, I confused it with Loopy.
13:19:01 <fizzie> Because it looks pretty similar, except for the solid border.
13:19:13 <shachaf> there's also the part where the instructions still say "loop"
13:19:35 <fizzie> I've been just playing the Loopy one.
13:20:29 <shachaf> but now i'm playing "stephen's sausage roll" apparently
13:36:37 <int-e> loopy otoh has many patterns.
13:38:54 <fizzie> Yes. Though at least one applies to both: if you have a 3 in a square, and it has a corner like _| where there are no other outgoing edges from that corner, then those two edges must be part of a boundary (because at least one of them needs to be, and the edge can't stop there).
13:42:34 <b_jonas> Dumb question. Rust has these compile time lifetime rules, where a variable can be in scope but uninitializes, and you can't read a variable unless it's known at compile time to be initialized. But that actually means you can't just transform any control flow to a while-switch loop, so the question is, WHY DOESN'T RUST HAVE A GOTO STATEMENT?
13:43:11 <b_jonas> Given that the compiler already has to understand the control flow for the compile time lifetime rules, goto wouldn't be hard to implement.
13:43:14 <\oren\> Ok, seriously: "Note that the term hom-set is something of a misnomer as the collection of morphisms is not required to be a set." Uh... how can something be a collection but not a set?!?!
13:43:43 <shachaf> it can be too big to be a set
13:44:14 <shachaf> or there's a more boring interpretation where it's a multiset or something
13:44:18 <b_jonas> \oren\: proper class, either of the higher order logic kind, or (possibly more restricted but more specific) defined by a formula and a set parameter
13:44:19 <shachaf> but that's not the one they mean hth
13:45:06 <int-e> shachaf: there's also this kind of pattern: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/palisade.png
13:45:33 <b_jonas> \oren\: it's like how you speak of the isomorphism class of graphs (in general), and an isomorphism class isn't actually a set (because the vertices are permitted to be anything, not just pulled from a set of potential vertexes fixed in advance).
13:45:39 <fizzie> int-e: That's exactly what I was trying to describe.
13:45:55 <b_jonas> For the things we actually want to do with isomorphism class of graphs, this isn't a problem though.
13:46:28 <b_jonas> (Which is good because otherwise you'd be in trouble.)
13:46:51 <int-e> fizzie: it's related to the connected path thing: both pairs of marked edges are on a path ... they either are both marked, or neither of them is marked. this also works for longer paths
13:47:35 <int-e> (and sorry, I'm not reading everything... technically I'm working)
13:47:39 <fizzie> Yes. (So by extension you can flag them as non-marked if the square's a 1.)
13:47:51 <fizzie> What a coincidence, I'm working as well.
13:48:02 <shachaf> b_jonas: also why do category theory people say a subobject is an isomorphism class of monomorphisms
13:48:54 <shachaf> when they don't say that e.g. a product is an isomorphism class, they just pick one thing and then add "up to isomorphism"
13:48:57 <shachaf> technically i'm on vacation
13:49:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: uh... I don't know category theory, sorry
14:17:51 <HackEgo> U+12379 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 92 8d b9 UTF-16BE: d808df79 Decimal: 𒍹 \ 𒍹 (𒍹) \ Uppercase: U+12379 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
14:19:20 <fizzie> Needs a newer Unicode.
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14:19:39 <HackEgo> U+12379 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 92 8d b9 UTF-16BE: d808df79 Decimal: 𒍹 \ 𒍹 (𒍹) \ Uppercase: U+12379 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
14:19:44 <fizzie> ("U+12379 CUNEIFORM SIGN GA2 TIMES AN PLUS KAK PLUS A -- was added to Unicode in version 7.0.")
14:21:01 <\oren\> that's a hell of a name
14:21:35 <\oren\> they should have named the chinese characters like that, according to their transliteration
14:23:26 <\oren\> anyway someone was claiming that no font supports that character
14:23:26 <fizzie> ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM still has the longest name.
14:23:44 <\oren\> but I refuse to support it
14:24:12 <\oren\> the sumerians will have to keep using their clay tablets
14:24:19 <fizzie> In fact, the ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA {FINAL,INITIAL,ISOLATED} FORM triplet take all the top-3 slots, leaving poor old CLOCKWISE RIGHTWARDS AND LEFTWARDS OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY in the dust.
14:24:50 <shachaf> fizzie: speaking of which why isn't there a convenient unix shell command to sort by lengths twh
14:25:02 <shachaf> well, there is one on my machine. but not anywhere else.
14:25:34 <fizzie> I keep doing | perl -ne 'print length($_), " ", $_;' | sort -n.
14:26:34 <fizzie> (Amusingly enough, it counts the newline as part of the length.)
14:26:57 <fizzie> Also: SIGNWRITING MOVEMENT-FLOORPLANE HUMP HITTING CEILING LARGE DOUBLE.
14:28:22 <fizzie> Apparently it's for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SignWriting
14:29:01 <shachaf> i was hoping the signwriting movement would be more along the lines of graffiti
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14:30:40 <b_jonas> fizzie: are you checking the latest version of unicode?
14:31:00 <fizzie> b_jonas: I did wget a fresh ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt, so hopefully relatively so.
14:31:35 <b_jonas> oh, you get it straight from unicode.org? I usually just use that file from the libicu zip.
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14:31:56 <b_jonas> (Libicu obviously follows changes in unicode quickly.)
14:32:27 <fizzie> I keep a copy at ~/archive/misc/UnicodeData.txt, since obviously one needs to refer to it quite often in one's day-to-day activities.
14:33:18 <fizzie> Meanwhile, at the other extreme: OX, ANT, ARC, BED, BOY, BUG, BUS, CAT, COW, DOG, DVD, EAR, EYE, FOG, IMP, KEY, LEO, MAN, NOR, PIG, RAM, RAT, SUN, XOR.
14:34:57 <fizzie> Seems that a "make a block-drawing based autoscaled histogram and sprunge it" script would be convenient.
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14:55:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Harpix * New user account
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15:18:10 <FireFly> Surely there must be several of those already
15:18:24 <FireFly> not that it'd stop me from NIHing it
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15:19:07 * FireFly also keeps a local copy of UnicodeData.txt, though mostly because of a "charselect" shellscript for searching for glyphs
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15:58:27 <rdococ> continuing the discussion about quantum combinatory logic, I think that doing anything to a superposition should collapse it, it would prevent problems
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16:02:24 <rdococ> for the rho calculus thing, maybe R (xy) y z = xz?
16:05:18 <rdococ> I am tempted to talk about hit points (hp) to ping a certain person
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16:44:37 <fizzie> Hit points in a large and often sumptuous tent.
16:44:58 <fizzie> (WordNet definition for the "p" word.)
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17:51:34 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( "sexual dimorphism" (a biology concept) sounds like something that mathematicians fantasize about )
17:52:24 <prooftechnique> Mathematicians don't have fantasies, they have "research" symposia
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17:55:56 <hppavilion[1]> Category:Categories of Category-theoretical Categories
17:57:18 <prooftechnique> I think we were discussing whether a wiki forms a category last month
17:59:14 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: A subset of the features of MediaWiki wikis probably form a category, but when you include (wiki)categories, it gets more complicated (though I suppose we could just count them as pages and being in a category as a link to that page)
18:01:04 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: Wait, composition is just clicking twice
18:01:13 -!- Moon_ has joined.
18:02:46 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: Oh. No, it doesn't, because there is no right or left identity
18:03:10 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: Having a link to the same page could be a left identity, but it isn't required so it doesn't work
18:03:56 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, there is a left identity- the first tab at the top of the page is a link whether or not you're on the main part of a page
18:15:43 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: So... what are the products and coproducts of wikipages?
18:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: Wait. Product would be a disambiguation under certain interpretations, wouldn't it?
18:22:26 <izabera> inspirobot reminds me of https://xkcd.com/1263/
18:23:17 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: Every page that links to a either page links to the disambiguation and- by composition- also links to the pages it disambiguates, because the disambiguation links to those pages.
18:26:10 <prooftechnique> Does browser history figure into this? I think that could make the issue of unique identities a problem
18:27:03 <rdococ> quantum combinatory logic
18:28:15 <rdococ> the issue we encountered with superpositions that don't automatically collapse when touched
18:28:24 <rdococ> I think it's why they collapse in the real world
18:49:06 <rdococ> I typed this whole sentence backwards, lels
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19:27:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[//////////]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46852 * 87.246.78.46 * (+8) blobfish
19:28:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[//////////]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46853&oldid=46852 * Sbneelu * (-8) Blanked the page
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19:31:49 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a category theory where categories are hyperdigraphs rather than normal digraphs?
19:46:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category theory]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46854 * Hppavilion1 * (+1464) Created the very basics, not sure where to go from here (I feel this page is necessary because abusing Category Theory is clearly a method for creating esolangs, and such a topic won't be discussed elsewhere)
19:57:52 <hppavilion[1]> Why not make a programming language directly based on CT? That'd be nice
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20:24:29 <Moon_> i designed a non-joke eso: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157829.0
20:28:14 <Moon_> Example program: ++/P++P++p/p\o\o/io\o
20:30:20 <gamemanj> ...looking at it, the only reason it's windows-only seems to be SetColor - which is "DOES NOT WORK, DO NOT USE YET" anyway
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20:32:29 <gamemanj> other things involving setcolor: formatting style is different ('{' on next line as opposed to '{' on same line everywhere else, comments, etc...)
20:36:25 <Moon_> anyone able to figure out why unning a input wont work?
20:36:50 <Moon_> it acts invisible yet visible
20:37:02 <Moon_> and will crash the program when i try to print out what it got as input
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20:37:37 <gamemanj> It seems* the scanf doesn't read the line separator.
20:38:03 <gamemanj> * (I typed one 'i', pressed enter, program exited, probably due to reading the newline, typed 4 'i's, pressed enter, it waited for input)
20:38:34 <Moon_> whats the newline code?
20:39:06 <gamemanj> 0x0A or decimal 10 on linux, but TBH you may want your interpreter to read code from a file, or have a separator that isn't system-dependent, like say '!'
20:40:31 <Moon_> well, im lazy but yea, i need to make it read from a code file
20:41:40 <gamemanj> hmm... I'm a bit worried that if an unmatched ] occurs the interpreter will read past the start of the program
20:42:43 <gamemanj> [gamemanj@Iwakura CIOL]$ ./a.out
20:42:44 <gamemanj> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
20:43:49 <Moon_> for me it didnt do anything
20:44:16 <gamemanj> Your '[' loops are... interesting... they don't check the initial state of the memory pointer.
20:44:48 <Moon_> [ is just a recall point for ] those loops work similar to how brainfuck ones do
20:44:48 <j-bot> Moon_: is (just a recall point for ] those loops work similar to how brainfuck ones do)
20:45:17 <Moon_> i detect a trolling chatbot
20:45:28 <j-bot> fowl: |value error: poop
20:45:34 <gamemanj> I'd assume that '[' not jumping forward on 0 is intentional, else CIOL would be directly translatable to/from Brainfuck if I'm reading this correctly
20:45:46 <gamemanj> [ print("Is this your language?")
20:45:46 <j-bot> gamemanj: |syntax error
20:45:46 <j-bot> gamemanj: | print( "Is this your language?")
20:45:52 <j-bot> gamemanj: |value error: help
20:46:03 <Moon_> gamemanj, you got that right
20:46:23 <j-bot> fowl: |value error: nil
20:46:28 <j-bot> fowl: |value error: null
20:46:30 <Moon_> but CIOL has more functions than brainfuck
20:46:35 <Moon_> so not fully translateable
20:46:42 <j-bot> fowl: |value error: false
20:46:56 <Moon_> its still in it's 'Unstable' state
20:47:47 <Moon_> its intended to be able to access diffrent IO sets besides just the console
20:48:16 <Moon_> yet again, interpreter is incomplete
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20:53:18 <Moon_> else if (current_char == 'j') { // Jump forward n spaces int i2; for (i2 = *ptr; i2 < 1; i2--) { current_char = input[++i] } }
20:53:47 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: It can do Input and Output, but can it do throughput, intraput, and interput?
20:54:06 <Moon_> and sadly i have never heard of that
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20:55:22 <myname> i'd say a pipe is a throughput
20:55:23 <hppavilion[1]> input is RealWorld -> Here (-> is not haskell, it's a representation of movement)
20:56:14 <Moon_> its gonna be able to copy text out of its own code soon
20:56:18 <Moon_> im writing that in now
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20:56:40 <Moon_> continues until it hits a ;
20:56:42 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to change from in/out to more formal-sounding things
20:57:11 <Moon_> CIOL stands for Complex Input Output Language
20:57:25 <hppavilion[1]> endoput :: internal streamed read/write operations (e.g. buffers, functions, and generators)
20:57:52 <Moon_> which should explain the fact it has 3 registers fairly well
20:59:19 <Moon_> *gently sitting on a theoretical stack that will potentially be added
20:59:50 <Moon_> *it might make the tape redundant*
21:00:54 <Moon_> rHi, im moon, and this is a example of CIOL using the upcoming function!;
21:03:56 <Moon_> i dont ready everything
21:04:37 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: Esolang Theory says that the best languages are based on mathematical... things... that have not been used on such a way before.
21:05:55 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: So just throwing things together and making a language out of it usually doesn't make beautiful esolangs; it just makes a weird-looking write-only ASM or something
21:07:22 <Moon_> ik, im still in the experimental stage on comeing up with things
21:07:44 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: Now, if you use an abstract data structure that hasn't been used as a language basis before- like, say, making the function the underlying structure- THEN you're doing something novel
21:08:14 <Moon_> i had the idea of making variables and variable operations the only things that a lang supported before
21:08:40 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: Yes, I know. It's a phase of esolanging. Most people who learn about Esolangs never pass it (they get bored before they hit a breakthrough), but hopefully you'll stick around long enough to make something cool :)
21:09:38 <Melvar> ` jq -rn '{a : 0, b : 1, out: []} | recurse({a : .b, b : .a + .b, out: .out + [.a]}, .a < 1000) | .out[] | tostring'
21:09:50 <Melvar> `` jq -rn '{a : 0, b : 1, out: []} | recurse({a : .b, b : .a + .b, out: .out + [.a]}, .a < 1000) | .out[] | tostring'
21:10:01 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: Most traditional languages are based on hashmaps (a variable name maps to a value). Is that idea just using a set, forgoing the value assigned to the variable?
21:10:27 <HackEgo> jq: error: syntax error, unexpected '+', expecting '}' (Unix shell quoting issues?) at <top-level>, line 1: \ {a : 0, b : 1, out: []} | recurse({a : .b, b : .a + .b, out: .out + [.a]}, .a < 1000) | .out[] | tostring \ jq: error: syntax error, unexpected '+', expecting '}' (Unix shell quoting issues?
21:10:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
21:10:48 <hppavilion[1]> The entire language would be about testing if variable exist, rather than actually using them
21:11:37 <Moon_> look, if the language is variable oriented, things like random number gens are possible easily with a bit of uniqueness
21:14:27 <Moon_> for example: char toprint = 'c'; ostream[0 to 50] = {toprint}; string entered = istream[0 to 50]; ostream[0 to 50] = entered;
21:15:44 <Moon_> well see the 'to' thats unique to allow us to specify a range, now.. i need to think
21:17:09 <Moon_> what do you think of the idea hp
21:17:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Which is usually a bad sign for language designers, but not here xD)
21:18:42 * Moon_ asked on purpose to make sure you were paying attention, you lazy bum (xD)
21:18:58 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: Um, I take it english isn't your first language?
21:19:17 <Moon_> it is :P i am grammer fail in some cases
21:19:27 <Moon_> but most likely my damn keyboard
21:20:06 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: Because that could have been a little offensive. I'm not personally offended (at least, not intellectually; subconsciously, yes), but... well, you're kind of new to the channel, so that could have been taken badly
21:20:58 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: Just remember that IRC doesn't have things like body language or facial expressions (that the human brain automatically picks up on, at least)
21:21:09 <impomatic> int-e: the Hilbert Curve has been added to the Box-256 leaderboard if you fancy giving it a try? :-)
21:21:41 <Moon_> ima write out some specs in my text editer to get started on that lang
21:22:02 <fowl> Moon_: put it somewhere other than a random forum
21:22:15 <fowl> A random thread on a random forum*
21:22:35 <fowl> Like github or github or the github
21:22:52 <Moon_> no, im not writing a interpreter just yet
21:22:59 <Moon_> i need to think it out
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21:44:25 <Moon_> here is what i have on specifications so far: http://pastebin.com/RaHEYXG3
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21:57:46 <`^_^> what do you want
21:57:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^: not found
21:57:56 <Moon_> im trying to talk to hackbot
21:58:20 <`^_^> i am an invalid program
21:58:45 <Moon_> else if (current_char == 'r') { i3 = i++; for (i4 = input[i3];i4 != ';';++i3){ if (input[i3] == ';') break; putchar(input[i3]); } }
21:58:52 <Moon_> why does that code hate spaces
21:59:00 <Moon_> when its not ment to
21:59:21 <FireFly> that's some annoying formatting for a single-line paste
21:59:48 <Moon_> and its not singleline
22:00:11 <FireFly> Well it's a single IRC message
22:00:33 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/2016-04-27_230025.png
22:00:33 <Moon_> fixed the printing the r problem
22:00:37 <Moon_> but the code hates spaces
22:01:00 <Moon_> it spamprints space when it reaches one
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22:01:55 <Moon_> is it because of putchar?
22:06:07 <Melvar> `` jq -rn '{a : 0, b : 1} | recurse({a : .b, b : (.a + .b)}, .a < 1000) | .a | tostring'
22:06:09 <HackEgo> 0 \ 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \
22:06:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:08:09 <Melvar> `` jq -rn '{a : 0, b : 1} | recurse({a : .b, b : (.a + .b)}; .a < 1000) | .a | tostring'
22:08:11 <HackEgo> 0 \ 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987
22:08:43 <int-e> impomatic: I'm trying hard to avoid looking at the box-256 stuff, hoping to priotize lambdabot work... hasn't worked out very well though, I'm spending most productive time on actual work.
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22:10:33 <Moon_> http://pastebin.com/7RdsCW2d can someone help me with the problem sections in this? i marked the ones with problems with a comment
22:12:20 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen gregor ever
22:13:10 <pikhq> To be sure there's no *obvious* problems with it (modulo being Windows-specific C, which I dislike, but that's neither here nor there)
22:13:52 <Moon_> well r and R hate spaces
22:14:01 <Moon_> r will fall into a inf loop when it hits a space
22:14:13 <Moon_> R will end the reading of the code
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22:14:27 <Moon_> when it hits a space
22:14:54 <pikhq> Ah, I do see a problem with the loop in the 'r' section.
22:15:20 <pikhq> So, that loop will go until i4 is equal to ';', correct?
22:15:24 <Moon_> yea, try printing Hello, World!
22:15:40 <Moon_> and its constantly counting up each time
22:15:46 <pikhq> But, i4 only ever gets set by the "i4 = input[i3]" statement which only executes *once*.
22:16:13 <pikhq> So the logic there means that if i4 != ';', you loop infinitely.
22:17:06 <pikhq> Also, just a question with [ and ]: are you intending those to work like in Brainfuck?
22:17:20 <pikhq> Because if so, it doesn't work.
22:17:32 <Moon_> No, it has to be a little diffrent
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22:17:40 <Moon_> They do work, right?
22:17:59 <pikhq> It looks to me like what you have is more like a do-while loop than a while-loop.
22:18:12 <Moon_> Yup, they do, they printed out the entire ansii set
22:18:13 <pikhq> But assuming that's what you *meant*, it at least looks right.
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22:20:11 <Moon_> r reacts with Space in specific
22:20:55 <pikhq> I'm going to guess that's coincidence. I *think* the string "rr;" would also show the symptom though.
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22:22:03 <pikhq> Oh, wait, i++; i3 = i++; You need a longer string to trigger it.
22:22:32 <pikhq> "rrr;" or some such
22:22:52 <Moon_> a longer string made it shift back one and miss a letter
22:23:28 <Moon_> that was due to a change i made
22:24:14 <Moon_> the operations get locked into one scope
22:24:27 <Moon_> so operands are not read during r
22:24:37 <Moon_> r only checks for a ;
22:26:55 <Moon_> really i have no flipping idea what causes the space glitch
22:27:30 <pikhq> My advice is to use a debugger and single-step.
22:29:21 <Moon_> im terrible with debuggers *sigh*
22:30:02 <Moon_> I figured it out, its running off the edge of the memory
22:30:12 <Moon_> i figured out one thing
22:32:45 -!- `^_^ has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:34:46 <Moon_> can you help me out by looking into this ass wel pik
22:42:10 <FreeFull> Writing a TUI program is very instructive
22:43:23 <Moon_> scanf stops at the first space
22:43:37 <pikhq> Ah, yes, I wasn't even looking at that!
22:43:55 <pikhq> Right, using scanf to slurp in the input might not be the best choice.
22:44:03 <Moon_> whats a better way to get input?
22:45:27 <pikhq> Um, for exactly what you're doing I'd just use fgets. Ideally you'd actually use getline and accept arbitrary sized lines, but mingw doesn't have that.
22:46:16 <pikhq> fgets(input, sizeof(input), stdin); basically.
22:46:25 <Moon_> yea, im trying file input
22:46:29 <Moon_> and do you mean gets?
22:46:32 <Moon_> fgets is for files
22:46:55 <pikhq> By the way, the input and output are also files.
22:47:05 <pikhq> stdin and stdout refer to them, and are FILE* objects.
22:47:17 <pikhq> For any function that works on FILEs, you can just use those.
22:47:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:47:46 <pikhq> For example, getchar() is literally just fgetc(stdin).
22:52:47 <Kaynato> Is there a C library out there that does the whole "pixel drawing" thing pretty well?
22:53:47 <FireFly> I guess it depends on how you define "pretty well"
22:54:22 <Melvar> Also depends on how you define “pixel drawing”.
22:54:34 <FireFly> But it's a C library, relatively light, and it's relatively easy to open a window with a framebuffer
23:03:00 <fizzie> The for (i2 = *ptr; i2 < 1; i2--) loops are still incredibly suspicious. Since they're all unsigned type, it runs once if *ptr == 0, and not at all if *ptr is any other value (because "i2 < 1" will be false).
23:04:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
23:10:01 -!- boily has joined.
23:12:12 <Moon_> CIOL is now pretty much bug free! http://pastebin.com/8nV6eP85
23:13:01 <Moon_> well, my interpreter is
23:13:06 <Moon_> it also takes file input now
23:17:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:18:26 <int-e> impomatic: also, I first want to figure out how to do those carpets efficiently (number of cycles)... maybe next weekend.
23:18:32 <Moon_> http://pastebin.com/8nV6eP85
23:18:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> any other heuristics like that? <-- lots, although i don't remember them at the moment as i've been on slant for a while.
23:19:03 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:19:17 <Moon_> thats my first actually useful and logical language
23:21:04 <oerjan> Moon_: are you sure [ should be like that, you seem to be in the NewbieFuck trap
23:21:11 <fizzie> I don't believe your j/J.
23:21:16 <fizzie> For the reasons already outlined.
23:21:54 <Moon_> i wasnt paying much attention to other things
23:22:24 <HackEgo> U+1F344 MUSHROOM \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8d 84 UTF-16BE: d83cdf44 Decimal: 🍄 \ 🍄 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
23:22:25 <Moon_> heres something i came up with otherwise: http://pastebin.com/RaHEYXG3
23:22:59 <boily> I can see the mushroom!
23:23:01 <oerjan> i guess with all the jumps a normal [ isn't necessary
23:23:34 <fizzie> (In particular, j jumps forward 1 character if the current value is 0, and not at all if it's anything else.)
23:24:37 <Moon_> j is suppost to go forward, i forgot to test it
23:24:51 <oerjan> oh right, the tests are reversed
23:25:30 <Moon_> i mixed up the logic
23:26:01 * oerjan is starting to worry about losing count here
23:26:18 <fizzie> (The file input is also pretty bizarre.)
23:26:46 <Moon_> im weloming someone to improve it :P
23:27:15 -!- XorSwap has joined.
23:27:17 <Moon_> anyways, did this fix the j and J problem? http://pastebin.com/kvpJGJEr
23:27:26 <oerjan> hm shachaf is idle, oh well if he just straight out speaks to me through the logs then he'd better expect the same back.
23:27:52 <Moon_> wait i realized it didnt
23:28:05 <boily> oerjan: I think you were up to f hth
23:28:43 <fizzie> Incidentally, the types of "input" and "input2" are wrong.
23:28:46 <oerjan> <fowl> `unidecode 🍄 <-- . o O ( is there a BEAVER )
23:28:59 <HackEgo> U+18F3 CANADIAN SYLLABICS BEAVER DENE L \ UTF-8: e1 a3 b3 UTF-16BE: 18f3 Decimal: ᣳ \ ᣳ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+18F4 CANADIAN SYLLABICS BEAVER DENE R \ UTF-8: e1 a3 b4 UTF-16BE: 18f4 Decimal: ᣴ \ ᣴ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
23:29:37 <fizzie> Reasonable choices would be "char input[100]" or a "char *input" pointing at something, but not a "char *input[100]" -- that's an array of 100 pointers.
23:29:40 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:30:26 <oerjan> boily: i said i was starting to worry, not that i thought i'd already done so.
23:31:26 <Moon_> fixing that and the j+J problem right now
23:32:02 <Moon_> http://pastebin.com/Hpepq8AE
23:32:58 <shachaf> oerjan: but i don't logread
23:33:11 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway isn't speaking to you through the logs the best method
23:33:30 <Melvar> Hi oerjan. Do you know of jq?
23:34:01 <oerjan> shachaf: for reaching me it works, for getting a response, less certain.
23:34:22 <oerjan> Melvar: first time i heard of it was in the channel yesterday.
23:34:30 <Moon_> i searched pastebin
23:34:39 <Moon_> and found someone made brainfuck with graphics
23:34:41 <Moon_> http://pastebin.com/5GgQKbL3
23:36:04 <fizzie> There was a demoscene thing that mapped the brainfuck tape to the 320x200 VGA frame buffer, I forget what it was called.
23:36:40 <oerjan> b_jonas: anyone you know?
23:36:46 <fizzie> Could only find http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5060 offhand.
23:36:48 <Moon_> well this one uses the C# graphics api (i hate C#)
23:37:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:38:11 <Moon_> i went pastebin diving and found a graphical brainfuck implentation: http://pastebin.com/5GgQKbL3
23:38:58 <Moon_> so im never gonna find out
23:39:24 <Moon_> its a maping the tape to a picture type
23:39:34 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ (* \ 99 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ply-3.8.tar.gz \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ things_with_hg_in_them_in_bin.txt \ tmf
23:39:40 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:39:42 -!- nathaly has joined.
23:39:57 <Moon_> that means making pictures in brainfuck
23:40:08 <oerjan> i'm going to assume it's unpacked in that directory
23:40:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: were you using that?
23:41:18 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access tmf: No such file or directory
23:41:23 <Melvar> oerjan: jq’s filters seem closely related to the List Kleisli arrow.
23:41:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i like to purge toplevel `ls down to one line on occasion.
23:41:38 <HackEgo> Complaints.mp3: ASCII text
23:41:44 <oerjan> Melvar: aka list monad...
23:41:44 <fizzie> That's some extension.
23:41:47 <Moon_> there is a folder named dog moon
23:42:09 <HackEgo> cat: moons: No such file or directory
23:42:13 <Melvar> oerjan: Well, the way you use it is essentially in arrow form.
23:42:15 <HackEgo> cat: 2: No such file or directory
23:42:52 <Moon_> `cat complaints.mp3
23:42:52 <HackEgo> cat: complaints.mp3: No such file or directory
23:43:24 <HackEgo> cat: complaints: No such file or directory
23:43:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lls: not found
23:43:30 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ (* \ 99 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
23:43:34 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But I might have someday :P <-- that looks easy to regenerate, anyway.
23:43:51 <Moon_> `cat Complaints.mp3
23:44:03 <HackEgo> Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing \ The above complaint looks like an error message, but it's actually a complaint \ now the former complaints make no sense because the complaints file was moved \ The complaints above are not using periods properly. \ All of the complaints are about the complai
23:44:29 <fizzie> It's also pretty long.
23:44:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oh wait, you meant ply, yeah that's still there. although i might move it eventually.
23:44:34 <fizzie> There's a lot to complain about.
23:44:44 <Moon_> how do you add to it
23:44:58 <fizzie> I assume someone added the .mp3 extension due to the first one.
23:45:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/le/mma: No such file or directory
23:45:58 <oerjan> <fizzie> That's some extension. <-- well someone complained that it didn't have an extension, so i gave it one hth
23:46:15 -!- nathaly has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
23:46:21 <Melvar> oerjan: Something like, jq’s . is id and | is (>>>). |= is the basis of first- and second-like things.
23:46:47 <Moon_> someone made a brainfuck interpreter in LOLCODE
23:46:49 <Moon_> http://pastebin.com/1PPj6SyA
23:47:00 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv.
23:47:31 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ (* \ 99 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
23:48:44 <hppavilion[1]> Someone complete this: `mkx theorems/lesser pythagorean//The Lesser Pythagorean Theorem states that
23:49:12 <boily> \oren\: he\\oren\. your backslashes, they irk me hth
23:49:32 <hppavilion[1]> boily: But they make the porthello so beautiful...
23:49:44 <oerjan> <Moon_> how do you add to it <-- with the `complain command
23:50:09 <Moon_> `complain nix is too hard for meh
23:50:13 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
23:50:16 <boily> hppavilion[1]: hppavellon[1]. that's the problem. they're just a pain to latexify.
23:50:39 <fizzie> oerjan: I've been assuming `complain entirely ignores the complaint.
23:51:04 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints.mp3; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
23:51:05 <Moon_> `complain This can be botted to easy
23:51:08 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
23:51:29 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Huh. It seemed like the obvious assumption.
23:51:50 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: Doesn't sound very hard <-- <brag> try the one in Fueue </brag>
23:52:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: new: not found
23:52:23 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:52:29 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
23:52:50 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ bookofeso \
23:52:50 <Moon_> mk test//moonwashere
23:52:54 <fowl> `echo hello > hello.hello
23:53:16 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: No, the x needs to be included or it's a massive pain
23:53:18 <fowl> It didn't work did it
23:53:37 <Moon_> `mkx test//moonwashere
23:53:40 <fizzie> The x just makes things executable.
23:53:42 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Someone complete this: `mkx theorems/lesser <-- itym `mk not `mkx hth
23:54:00 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ (* \ 99 \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
23:54:17 <fowl> I'm starting my own channel
23:54:27 <Moon_> where was test put?
23:54:41 <fowl> The same thing as this channel but with less robots
23:54:42 <oerjan> <fizzie> oerjan: I've been assuming `complain entirely ignores the complaint. <-- it used to, but then someone (iirc zzo38) changed it.
23:55:06 <fizzie> fungot: Join #tesoeric.
23:55:06 <fungot> fizzie: where practical programming r6rs would be nice, when i pass 6 ( is return right? my dad joined the navy underaged so he could sell it to the lispme list. to make those other packets go out via different interfaces. why do you build it
23:55:18 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ bookofeso \
23:55:33 <HackEgo> 1:2/And #esoteric was without denizens, and empty; and the order was on the face of the PDP-8. And the software of fungot moved upon the face of the scrollback.
23:56:03 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin\bf\: No such file or directory
23:56:17 <hppavilion[1]> `bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
23:56:36 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know why, but `bf <hold +>. is one of my favourite games
23:56:58 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> `help mkx <-- alas `help is one of the builtin commands we cannot improve.
23:57:01 <Moon_> bf +.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
23:57:19 <Moon_> `bf +.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.
23:58:12 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: No, the x needs to be included or it's a massive pain <-- only for executables, duh
23:58:39 <fizzie> oerjan: Say "ping" when you've caught up to this.
23:58:43 <fizzie> (Just doing some measurements here.)
23:59:05 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Nospam. <-- hey don't overdo _that_ either, testing HackEgo is traditional.
23:59:39 <oerjan> <fowl> The same thing as this channel but with less robots <-- you cannot have real geeks without robots hth
00:00:35 <Moon_> dont make me {0|0}
00:00:58 <HackEgo> no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \ no \
00:01:35 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: `goodhelp? <-- we've put a few things in `?
00:01:50 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
00:01:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: derp: not found
00:02:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: derp: not found
00:02:14 <fizzie> oerjan: I think you're catching up.
00:02:18 <HackEgo> /hackenv/derp: line 1: 0}: command not found \ /hackenv/derp: line 1: {0: command not found
00:02:50 <boily> hppavilion[1]: ♪ DING ♪ you have quotes!
00:03:07 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: So you're secretly oerjan then? <-- i'm not that good an actor.
00:03:09 <HackEgo> 365) <d1ffe7e45e interpreter> The interpreter uses an unbounded tape size, but due to technical limitations will stop being unbounded if the tap size reaches 2^63 cells.
00:03:21 <fowl> #tesoeric will have blackjack and hookers soon
00:03:56 -!- gnomi has joined.
00:03:56 -!- gnomi has quit (Client Quit).
00:04:25 <Moon_> mkx hia//:(){ :|: & };:
00:04:26 <boily> There is One Oerjan, and Int-e is the anti-Oerjan.
00:04:47 <Moon_> `mkx hia//:(){ :|: & };:
00:04:56 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Huh, he actually did it <-- it's not much of a loop, HackEgo has timeouts etc.
00:04:59 <hppavilion[1]> When I get to the new testament in the Book of Eso, who's Jesus?
00:05:50 <hppavilion[1]> Moon_: We just executed an infinite loop in finite time. Yep.
00:06:18 <Moon_> i was trying to see if i could crash hackerego
00:06:38 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.quora.com/Can-an-officer-put-himself-under-lawful-arrest/answer/Paul-Harding-14?srid=dS99
00:07:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the only person here sufficiently lawful good to be Jesus is ais523, and only on some days.
00:07:21 <fizzie> There's a well-known denial-of-service thing, though I forget how exactly it went. (Perhaps a good thing.)
00:07:58 <fizzie> (There's also hundreds of <defunct> Python processes presumably due to not waiting on something.)
00:08:14 <Moon_> `mkx script//echo Hia, run scriptadd to add to me!
00:08:27 <oerjan> fizzie: _definitely_ a good thing. iirc we had to get Lymia to hack it for real...
00:08:33 <hppavilion[1]> It appears fizzie has finally merged with eir creation
00:08:57 <Moon_> `cat bin/complaints
00:09:11 -!- tromp_ has joined.
00:10:01 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, right, no -- that was actually EgoBot.
00:10:13 <Moon_> `mkx scriptadd//print_args_or_input "$@" >> script
00:10:25 <Moon_> ./scriptadd echo leltest
00:10:33 <fizzie> oerjan: With the empty-loop bfjoust DOS that ludicrously got fixed with Lymia's shellshockery.
00:11:12 <Moon_> `./scriptadd echo leltest
00:11:19 <HackEgo> Hia, run scriptadd to add to me! \ leltest
00:12:04 <fizzie> Things conventionally go in bin/ so that people don't need to bother with "`./". Not that I think that's the most useful pair of commands ever.
00:12:25 <oerjan> fizzie: i'd just decided _not_ to point that out.
00:12:35 <Moon_> how do i move it there fizzie?
00:13:21 -!- adu has joined.
00:13:24 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:13:58 <Moon_> someone wanna compile this: http://pastebin.com/Hpepq8AE for nix
00:14:11 <Moon_> and put it on something i can `fetch from?
00:14:40 <fizzie> `` mv script{,add} bin/ # I guess they could be there just as well -- but how did you write those things in the first place?
00:14:42 <Moon_> adjust the file grab location as needed
00:14:59 <oerjan> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/Hpepq8AE
00:15:01 <HackEgo> 2016-04-27 23:14:54 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/Hpepq8AE [4154] -> "Hpepq8AE" [1]
00:15:08 <HackEgo> Hia, run scriptadd to add to me! \ leltest
00:15:23 <Moon_> `scriptadd echo why dont you cat me?
00:15:30 <HackEgo> Hia, run scriptadd to add to me! \ leltest
00:15:39 <oerjan> `` mv Hpepq8AE moonlang.c
00:15:59 <fizzie> Oh, the location in scriptadd is wrong now.
00:16:23 <oerjan> was gcc too much for HackEgo
00:16:33 <HackEgo> echo Hia, run scriptadd to add to me! \ echo leltest
00:16:34 <int-e> everything is too much for hackego
00:16:45 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access moonlang: No such file or directory
00:16:51 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ (* \ 99 \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ close \ *) \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ moonlang.c \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ script \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \
00:17:01 <oerjan> int-e: bah it still does that?
00:17:23 <int-e> oerjan: why would it stop?
00:17:30 <oerjan> `` mv a.out bin/moonlang
00:17:41 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's|script|bin/script|' bin/scriptadd; rm script # I wonder if this is worth fixing
00:17:44 <FireFly> Why do we have green opening and closing paren-comments?
00:18:01 <Moon_> the thing might not work due to it trys to get CLIO.txt from C:/
00:18:18 <HackEgo> cat: *): No such file or directory
00:18:28 <HackEgo> cat: *): No such file or directory
00:18:33 <fizzie> FireFly: Ask whoever named those files "\x0303(*" and so on.
00:18:52 <Moon_> whats the directory it needs changed to?
00:19:00 <int-e> `culprits (* close
00:19:02 <FireFly> figured it'd be one of them
00:19:23 <int-e> `` culprits *\(\**
00:19:33 <fizzie> It's "\x0303(*" and "close \\ *)\x03".
00:19:35 <Moon_> it will need to have scanf removed
00:19:48 <Moon_> what directory should CLIO.txt be in?
00:19:49 <FireFly> God, why would they do that
00:20:05 <int-e> `` rm *\(\** *\*\)*
00:20:14 <Moon_> what directory should CLIO.txt be in?
00:20:17 <fizzie> Moon_: You shouldn't have a CLIO.txt at all.
00:20:20 <Moon_> i need to know so it works right
00:20:45 <Moon_> whats should i do then
00:21:09 <oerjan> ok i don't remember enough C to do this correctly, but the source is in moonlang.c if someone wants to fix it.
00:21:13 <Moon_> i forgot how to use them a long while ago
00:21:55 <int-e> `` hg log e88203039ec3
00:22:18 <oerjan> oh wait now i remember
00:22:20 <int-e> anyway it seems to have been deliberate, actually.
00:22:22 <fizzie> Command-line arguments would be most reasonable for anything intended for HackEgo.
00:22:53 -!- XorSwap has joined.
00:23:28 <oerjan> `` sed -i '115cint main(int argc, char *argv[]) {' moonlang.c
00:23:29 <Moon_> well i just looked it up
00:23:29 <fizzie> int main(int argc, char **argv) + use argv[1] as the input, for the minimal possible solution.
00:23:47 <Moon_> ill put the fix up on pastebin
00:24:28 <Moon_> http://pastebin.com/18qQz2t6
00:24:49 * Moon_ uses brainfuck to go through the scrollback tape again
00:25:02 <fizzie> I mean: take the program source as the command-line input.
00:25:24 <Moon_> ill make a nother fix then
00:25:25 <fizzie> There's no reason to involve any files, because that would mean you'd need a wrapper script or something.
00:26:34 <Moon_> http://pastebin.com/J7vAQirV
00:26:59 <oerjan> <int-e> oerjan: why would it stop? <-- sudden outburst of sanity?
00:27:40 <Moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/download/18qQz2t6
00:27:42 <HackEgo> 2016-04-27 23:27:35 URL:http://pastebin.com/download/18qQz2t6 [133] -> "18qQz2t6" [1]
00:27:50 <oerjan> <FireFly> Why do we have green opening and closing paren-comments? <-- because someone could.
00:28:03 <oerjan> also, syntax coloring.
00:28:09 <fizzie> That's not the raw link you want to `fetch.
00:28:29 <HackEgo> Your request is blocked due to invalid referrer. If you are trying to hotlink this page, please use: http://pastebin.com/raw/18qQz2t6
00:28:42 <Moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/18qQz2t6
00:28:44 <HackEgo> 2016-04-27 23:28:37 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/18qQz2t6 [4018] -> "18qQz2t6.1" [1]
00:29:29 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `18qQz2t6 bin' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
00:29:37 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `18qQz2t6//bin' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
00:29:38 <fizzie> You need to, you know, compile it.
00:29:43 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `18qQz2t6/bin' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
00:29:51 <fizzie> `` gcc -x c 18qQz2t6.1 -o bin/moonlang && rm moonlang.c
00:30:44 <Moon_> does nix hate putchar?
00:31:16 <Moon_> o is putchar(*ptr);
00:32:09 -!- mad has joined.
00:32:21 <fizzie> The file you fetched is the one that tries to open a file.
00:32:21 <int-e> fp = fopen(argv[1],"r+"); ... it still wants a file name
00:32:28 <Moon_> its not *just* hackbot
00:32:38 <HackEgo> The program _Expects_ arguments by default.
00:32:44 <fizzie> It's not the most recent one, the one that just did interpret(argv[1]).
00:32:54 <int-e> also, you should test for argv == 2
00:33:14 <Moon_> we have to redownload it
00:33:16 <fizzie> `` echo ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++o | bin/moonlang /dev/stdin
00:33:17 <HackEgo> The program _Expects_ arguments by default>
00:33:28 <int-e> though actually you don't even have a test there, so never mind
00:33:30 <fizzie> Seems to work fine. Well, FSVO "fine".
00:34:11 <fizzie> Well, let's fetch the right one.
00:34:13 <fizzie> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/J7vAQirV
00:34:16 <HackEgo> 2016-04-27 23:34:09 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/J7vAQirV [3808] -> "J7vAQirV" [1]
00:34:17 <Moon_> what is hackego's max reserve to data
00:34:29 <fizzie> `` gcc -x c J7vAQirV -o bin/moonlang
00:34:30 <Moon_> http://pastebin.com/HiT1E6mv
00:35:08 <fizzie> It segfaults if you provide no arguments, of course.
00:35:27 <fizzie> But the "J7vAQirV" version was the right one.
00:35:42 <Moon_> well, how will i have it give output
00:35:46 <fizzie> (You just didn't fetch it.)
00:35:54 <Moon_> `moonlang +++++++o
00:35:55 <fizzie> Byte 2 isn't exactly very printable.
00:36:04 <int-e> `` rm 18qQz2t6.1 J7vAQirV
00:36:06 <Moon_> `moonlang +++++++++++++++++o
00:36:10 <oerjan> `moonlang ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++o
00:36:30 <int-e> 7 annoys... shachaf?
00:36:32 <Moon_> `moonlang rHello, World!;
00:36:40 * int-e forgot who complained about bells
00:37:33 <oerjan> int-e: shachaf's a good guess for s/bells/any character/
00:37:54 <fizzie> `` moonlang r # very stable
00:37:56 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: 296 Segmentation fault moonlang r
00:38:10 <Moon_> you forgot the ; at the end of the printout
00:38:16 <mad> how crazy would a cpu with multiple instruction caches be?
00:38:17 <fizzie> No, I deliberately left it out.
00:38:36 <Moon_> but then r will never stop
00:39:02 <HackEgo> â \ "$&(*,.02468:<>@BDFHJLNPRTVXZ\^`bdfhjlnprtvxz|~ ¢¤¦¨ª¬®°²´¶¸º¼¾ÀÂÄÆÈÊÌÎÐÒÔÖØÚÜÞàâäæèêìîðòôöøúüþ. \ "$&(*,.02468:<>@BDFHJLNPRTVXZ\^`bdfhjlnprtvxz|~ ¢¤¦¨ª¬®°²´¶¸º¼¾ÀÂÄÆÈÊÌÎÐÒÔÖØÚÜÞàâäæèêìîðòôöøúüþ. \ "$&(*,.02468:<>@BDFHJLNPRTVXZ\^`bdfhjlnprtvxz|~ ¢¤¦¨ª
00:39:24 <fizzie> Huh, since when has \r terminated the output?
00:39:25 * boily mapoles the moonlang into subservience
00:39:28 <oerjan> Moon_: some people don't like making bots print control characters hth
00:39:59 <Moon_> 2 is a face on my pc
00:40:18 <HackEgo> â!$'*-0369<?BEHKNQTWZ]`cfilorux{~¢¥¨«®±´·º½ÀÃÆÉÌÏÒÕØÛÞáäçêíðóöùüÿ #&),/258;>ADGJMPSVY\_behknqtwz}¡¤§ª°³¶¹¼¿ÂÅÈËÎÑÔ×ÚÝàãæéìïòõøûþ. \
00:40:22 <Moon_> it hits the edge without finding a [
00:40:34 * oerjan swats Kaynato -----###
00:40:56 <int-e> Moon_: I was hoping for a segfault
00:41:13 <Moon_> r is the only thing i know of that will do that
00:41:23 <Kaynato> Ai! Oerjan, what-ever have I done to you?
00:41:42 <Moon_> well, try and figure out what all the opcodes do
00:41:44 <boily> Moon_: hey, no hitting. please use an approved weapon like a gentleman.
00:41:48 <int-e> well, there is no check for "hitting the edge" in the loop that skips back for ]
00:41:48 <Moon_> and make something intresting
00:41:52 <oerjan> Kaynato: "<oerjan> Moon_: some people don't like making bots print control characters hth"
00:42:05 <Kaynato> Ah, ok, ok, I've got it, my apologies
00:42:14 <Moon_> but for some reason its a anti-bug in that psot
00:42:20 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:42:22 <Moon_> if it causes problems later
00:42:41 <fizzie> `moonlang ++++++++++j]]]]]]]]]]]
00:43:00 <Moon_> j and J can also do that
00:43:10 <Moon_> this is more of a proof of concept
00:43:31 <fizzie> I think the concept of a brainfuck derivative was kind of already proven by existing literature, but ah well.
00:44:02 <Moon_> [ doesnt function like a brainfuck bracket, i wrote them without thinking
00:44:02 <j-bot> Moon_: doesnt (function like a brainfuck bracket , i wrote them without thinking)
00:44:27 * FireFly . o O ( shortest program to print "Segmentation fault" to stderr and exit nonzero )
00:44:27 * Moon_ screams at j-bot to get out of here until later
00:45:16 <boily> FireFly: FirelloFly. http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/4399/shortest-code-that-return-sigsegv ?
00:46:49 <boily> Moon_: you ought to put the moonlang on the wiki hth
00:46:51 <fizzie> I have a vague feeling anagolf had something similar to that as well, though I may just be conflating that with just general solutions that die to exit.
00:47:02 <Moon_> its named CIOL really
00:47:43 <Moon_> also, i have a challange for you all
00:48:09 <oerjan> * Moon_ screams at j-bot to get out of here until later <-- hey in this here channel you watch your initial puncshuashion hth
00:48:20 <Moon_> write a game (of any sort) in CIOL (http://pastebin.com/Hpepq8AE, Non nix)
00:49:43 <Moon_> that acts as a quine on some computers
00:50:05 <Moon_> it doesnt segfault instantly
00:50:32 <fizzie> Does it actually print out two 'r's? That would seem a bit strange.
00:50:52 <Moon_> oh, your right, i didnt think it through *is stupid*
00:51:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: moon: not found
00:51:45 <Moon_> no interactive programs >_>
00:51:58 <Moon_> *now wants some sort of wrapper*
00:52:08 <oerjan> `` echo hi | moonlang io
00:53:01 <Moon_> `` echo hi | moonlang ipiPoPo
00:53:32 * Moon_ is prepared to cri over the fail
00:54:44 <fizzie> oerjan: Writing a quine?
00:55:25 <Moon_> `` echo hi| moonlang ipioPo
00:55:55 <Moon_> `` echo hi| moonlang ipiPopo
00:56:19 <HackEgo> Division by zero occured, Ending!
00:57:01 <Moon_> `moonlang rIma divide by zero!;d
00:57:02 <HackEgo> Ima divide by zero!Division by zero occured, Ending!
00:58:46 <HackEgo> â \ "$&(*,.02468:<>@BDFHJLNPRTVXZ\^`bdfhjlnprtvxz|~ ¢¤¦¨ª¬®°²´¶¸º¼¾ÀÂÄÆÈÊÌÎÐÒÔÖØÚÜÞàâäæèêìîðòôöøúüþ. \ "$&(*,.02468:<>@BDFHJLNPRTVXZ\^`bdfhjlnprtvxz|~ ¢¤¦¨ª¬®°²´¶¸º¼¾ÀÂÄÆÈÊÌÎÐÒÔÖØÚÜÞàâäæèêìîðòôöøúüþ. \ "$&(*,.02468:<>@BDFHJLNPRTVXZ\^`bdfhjlnprtvxz|~ ¢¤¦¨ª
00:58:50 <HackEgo> â \ "$&(*,.02468:<>@BDFHJLNPRTVXZ\^`bdfhjlnprtvxz|~ ¢¤¦¨ª¬®°²´¶¸º¼¾ÀÂÄÆÈÊÌÎÐÒÔÖØÚÜÞàâäæèêìîðòôöøúüþ. \ "$&(*,.02468:<>@BDFHJLNPRTVXZ\^`bdfhjlnprtvxz|~ ¢¤¦¨ª¬®°²´¶¸º¼¾ÀÂÄÆÈÊÌÎÐÒÔÖØÚÜÞàâäæèêìîðòôöøúüþ. \ "$&(*,.02468:<>@BDFHJLNPRTVXZ\^`bdfhjlnprtvxz|~ ¢¤¦¨ª
00:59:28 <HackEgo> â!$'*-0369<?BEHKNQTWZ]`cfilorux{~¢¥¨«®±´·º½ÀÃÆÉÌÏÒÕØÛÞáäçêíðóöùüÿ #&),/258;>ADGJMPSVY\_behknqtwz}¡¤§ª°³¶¹¼¿ÂÅÈËÎÑÔ×ÚÝàãæéìïòõøûþ. \
00:59:32 <oerjan> `moonlang ++++++++[-p+++++++P]p+++.
00:59:37 <oerjan> `moonlang ++++++++[-p+++++++P]p+++O
00:59:41 <oerjan> `moonlang ++++++++[-p+++++++P]p+++o
00:59:47 * boily playfully mapoles Moon_
01:00:05 <boily> *THWACK* *THWACK* *THWACK* :D
01:00:26 <fizzie> Please don't keep repeating the [++o] and friends, once was plenty.
01:00:33 <fizzie> `moonlang division by zero occurred, Ending!
01:00:34 <HackEgo> Division by zero occured, Ending!
01:00:37 <fizzie> A quine if you're case-insensitive.
01:01:04 <Moon_> using Moonlang's div by zero alert
01:01:48 <Moon_> that only happens in my interpreter
01:01:57 <Moon_> someone else could do it diffrent
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01:02:13 <Moon_> `moonlang rhello tromp_;
01:02:35 <Moon_> the i made it want input firefly
01:02:55 <Moon_> i for input and o for output
01:03:08 <Moon_> *moonlang is case sensitive*
01:03:40 <Moon_> who wants a challange?
01:04:18 * oerjan realizes a proper quine will not be as pretty as he thought, and loses interest
01:05:39 <Moon_> who thinks i should make a wiki page?
01:05:52 <oerjan> FireFly: to use r for most of it
01:06:17 <FireFly> and what is r again? I didn't pay attention
01:06:17 <Moon_> nice try, but r doesnt support direction switches
01:06:30 <Moon_> and any instructions it passes are unexecuted
01:06:39 <oerjan> Moon_: i didn't say for _all_ of it
01:06:54 <FireFly> oh, is it some kinda comment?
01:07:13 <FireFly> I probably should've jus read the source
01:07:14 <oerjan> FireFly: it's literal string printing
01:08:00 <Moon_> who thinks i should make a wiki page for CIOL
01:09:45 <oerjan> a dangerous question for a brainfuck derivative
01:10:15 <Moon_> its not quite derived
01:10:34 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:10:50 <oerjan> it's definitely derived. derived doesn't mean "exact superset or subset".
01:10:57 -!- idris-bot has joined.
01:19:38 <Kaynato> I think I should stop working on Daoyu
01:20:01 <Kaynato> It is apparent that writing any appreciable interesting program is excruciatingly painful
01:20:28 <Kaynato> Though that's the point, my attempt at the 99 bottles program fell through completely
01:21:01 <Moon_> a nice hard lang would be nice
01:21:05 <Kaynato> I though about it a bit and actually implementing it with true recursion is Much Worse than just printing out the lyrics literally
01:21:27 <oerjan> well that's true for many languages :P
01:21:34 <Kaynato> I blame myself for making a language without arithmetic nor incrementation nor trivial random access
01:21:52 <Kaynato> The problem is that what I was doing with the recursion
01:22:01 <Kaynato> Was essentially printing out the lyrics each time
01:22:10 <Kaynato> No, wait, not quite what I mean
01:22:24 <Kaynato> Write down the entire lyrics, and print only the one which we are currently at
01:22:34 -!- huh has joined.
01:22:35 <Kaynato> For each 99 possible lyrics
01:23:37 <Kaynato> Moon_, would you be interested in writing something in Daoyu?
01:23:43 <Kaynato> It seems you enjoy challenges
01:23:57 <Moon_> have a interpreter?
01:24:07 <Kaynato> Compiler and interpreter, yep
01:24:43 <Moon_> zip and ship (= a wiki article for this might be nice
01:25:05 <Moon_> `bf ++++++++++[->++++++++++<]>.+.+..+.+.+..-.-..-.-..+.-.
01:25:43 <fizzie> `moonlang +jrxxx ++++[p++++P-]pJ yyy*_________________;J
01:25:47 <HackEgo> xxx ++++[p++++P-]pJ yyy*_________________
01:25:49 <fizzie> With suitable 'xxx' and 'yyy' (+ adjustments), that would be a quine.
01:26:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CIOL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46855 * 76.1.78.41 * (+1166) Created page with "CIOL is a language developed by Moon_, and is designed to be fast, and efficient, in its own way == Operations == * p | Moves the pointer up one * P | Moves the pointer down o..."
01:26:32 <fizzie> (They just need to print "+jr" and ";J".)
01:26:37 <Moon_> shh, hackego, thats my ip >_>
01:27:20 <HackEgo> âÿþýüûúùø÷öõôóòñðïîíìëêéèçæåäãâáàßÞÝÜÛÚÙØ×ÖÕÔÓÒÑÐÏÎÍÌËÊÉÈÇÆÅÄÃÂÁÀ¿¾½¼»º¹¸·¶µ´³²±°¯®¬«ª©¨§¦¥¤£¢¡
~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"!
01:27:23 <Moon_> have the equiv in CIOL huh
01:27:58 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:28:03 <huh> what is 0x0d that is getting cut off?
01:28:09 <huh> is it delete?
01:28:27 <Moon_> i wrote the CIOL interpreter and the lang itself huh :P
01:28:39 <Kaynato> Moon_: https://github.com/Kaynato/DaoEsolang
01:28:57 <Kaynato> How does one hook into HackEgo?
01:30:03 <Moon_> pastebin the code and make it accept <your lang here> code as a arguement
01:30:19 <Moon_> then compile it on hackego after `fetch ing it
01:30:38 * Moon_ has explained where the moonlang file came from
01:30:58 <Moon_> `moonlang rAnd you are welcome;
01:31:00 <Kaynato> Pastebin the .c source, use `fetch to get it to hackego, then compile, right
01:31:13 <Moon_> put it in bin and run
01:31:24 <Moon_> but it cant be interactive
01:31:33 <Moon_> it has to have argument input
01:31:57 <fizzie> 0xd is CR, which I don't think used to cut things off, but apparently now does.
01:32:23 <Kaynato> Hm, the code itself has to be the argv?
01:32:28 <Moon_> but a simple char input will work like ``echo hi | moonlang ipiPopo
01:32:31 <Moon_> ``echo hi | moonlang ipiPopo
01:32:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
01:32:38 <Moon_> `` echo hi | moonlang ipiPopo
01:32:45 <Kaynato> Great, this means I will have to overhaul my program
01:32:58 <Moon_> `` echo hi | moonlang ipiopo
01:33:05 <Moon_> `` echo hi | moonlang ipiopo
01:33:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SLUGGISH CHICKEN).
01:33:21 <fizzie> A somewhat common convention is to put both program and input in the arguments, separated by !.
01:33:38 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ bookofeso \
01:34:05 <fizzie> ^bf ,[>,]<[.<]!like this
01:34:31 <Moon_> how can i get moonlang on fung :P
01:34:38 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
01:34:51 <HackEgo> Hia, run scriptadd to add to me! \ leltest
01:35:02 <HackEgo> cat: scriptadd: No such file or directory
01:35:06 <Moon_> `cat bin/scriptadd
01:35:08 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" >> bin/script
01:35:10 <huh> `curl http://google.com/
01:35:11 <fizzie> If you implement it in Befunge, I might consider adding it (but not very likely).
01:35:15 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \
01:35:23 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
01:35:25 <huh> so this is a real thing?
01:35:52 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ <\oren\> anyway someone was claiming that no font supports that character <-- hey my browser shows it hth
01:36:03 <Moon_> omg no i am not writing it in befunge
01:36:38 <fizzie> Well, if you write it in brainfuck or underload, you can use ^def to add it yourself.
01:36:59 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
01:37:47 <Moon_> did i break a thing
01:37:47 <oerjan> <Moon_> shh, hackego, thats my ip >_> <-- we see it with /whois anyway
01:38:16 <Moon_> `moonlang rI have a challange for you all;
01:38:18 <HackEgo> I have a challange for you all
01:39:04 <Moon_> and besides that, anyone feel like improving the wiki article? http://esolangs.org/wiki/CIOL
01:39:35 <fizzie> You didn't break it, you just chose a very suboptimal thing to output.
01:40:04 <fizzie> ^A is the CTCP escape character and gets filtered.
01:40:09 <FireFly> ^def test bf ++++++++[->++++++<]>...
01:40:28 <FireFly> I guess I could just have ^bf 'd it
01:40:38 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:40:48 <FireFly> ^bf ++++++++[->++++++<]>...
01:41:07 -!- XorSwap has joined.
01:41:30 * FireFly . o O ( befunge eval in fungot's fungespace for trusted users [i.e. admin] )
01:41:30 <fungot> FireFly: what do you do? argh! block out! you are in
01:41:44 <FireFly> fungot: oh no! what do I do?!
01:42:06 <FireFly> very existential today, are ew
01:42:20 <oerjan> <Kaynato> Hm, the code itself has to be the argv? <-- preferably as a single argument. that's the most convenient to use from HackEgo, anyway.
01:43:17 -!- XorSwap has quit (Client Quit).
01:44:03 <Moon_> `moonlang rThats what i did here kaynato;
01:44:03 <HackEgo> Thats what i did here kaynato
01:44:31 <Moon_> I have a challange for you all
01:45:05 <Kaynato> I suppose I wouldn't bother with comments in this type of interpreter, then?
01:45:55 <oerjan> <fizzie> Well, if you write it in brainfuck or underload, you can use ^def to add it yourself. <-- ps: underload has no input hth
01:46:34 <FireFly> Oh, doesn't render for me either.
01:46:48 <FireFly> And nothing I'm really interested in supporting in any of my fonts
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01:47:30 <HackEgo> U+12379 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 92 8d b9 UTF-16BE: d808df79 Decimal: 𒍹 \ 𒍹 (𒍹) \ Uppercase: U+12379 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
01:48:57 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
01:49:05 <Moon_> ^def bfinbf bf [-]+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[-]<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[>[-],>[-]+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>>>[-]>>[- ]<<<<<<[->>>>+>>+<<<<<<]>>>>>>[-<<<<<<+>>>>>>]<[-]>[-]<<<<<[->>>>+>+<<<<<]>>>>>[ -<<<<<+>>>>>]<<<[-]+[[-]>>>[-]>[-]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[>[-]>[-]<<<[->>+> +<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[<<<<[-]+>->->>[-]]<[-]]<<<]<[-]+>>>>[-]>[-]<<<[->>+>+<<<]>>> [-<<<+>>>]<[<<<<[-]>
01:49:10 <Moon_> damnit its too lage
01:49:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:51:05 <fizzie> The ^ul used to be defined via bf but the time limits meant it could run hardly anything.
01:51:18 <oerjan> Moon_: it's possible to input larger programs through the ^str command, but awkward.
01:51:29 <Moon_> http://pastebin.com/7qsnWhTR is the program
01:51:37 <Kaynato> I get the distinct feeling that Daoyu will be impractical with HackEgo here
01:52:15 <Moon_> it will probably be so for large programs, try HQR++
01:52:25 <oerjan> Moon_: oh. i doubt that has much of a chance of not timing out even if you got it in.
01:54:08 <oerjan> Kaynato: well inputting things with more than one line is awkward.
01:54:34 <Kaynato> That's fine - Daoyu isn't reliant on lines - but the problem is just the size of most programs
01:55:50 <HackEgo> /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 \ __gmon_start__ \ libc.so.6 \ fflush \ exit \ strncpy \ puts \ putchar \ memset \ getchar \ stdout \ malloc \ stderr \ fprintf \ strcmp \ __libc_start_main \ free \ GLIBC_2.2.5 \ =X! \ fff. \ 72 1 \ 01 1 \ 08 1 \ 08 1 \ 11 4 \ 4 32 \ 119 \ 111 \ 114 \ 108 \ 100 \ 33 H \ 10 HH \ <bu0H \ fffff. \ l$ L \ t$(L \ |
01:56:04 <oerjan> `` strings bin/fueue | tail
01:56:06 <HackEgo> --print \ Error: %s received too many arguments. The Hello world program \ FUEUE: UNMATCHED OPENING SQUARE BRACKET PROBABLY FORGOT A CLOSING SQUARE BRACKET \ FUEUE: UNKNOWN %c OP \ That's impossible...Neither num nor fun nor block... \ is_empty \ Error: found a %d in my soup \ deletetop \ sendback \ Error: queue was empty in %s
01:56:30 <oerjan> `` strings bin/fueue | tail -10 | head
01:56:32 <HackEgo> --print \ Error: %s received too many arguments. The Hello world program \ FUEUE: UNMATCHED OPENING SQUARE BRACKET PROBABLY FORGOT A CLOSING SQUARE BRACKET \ FUEUE: UNKNOWN %c OP \ That's impossible...Neither num nor fun nor block... \ is_empty \ Error: found a %d in my soup \ deletetop \ sendback \ Error: queue was empty in %s
01:56:50 <oerjan> `` strings bin/fueue | tail -50 | head
01:56:53 <HackEgo> /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 \ __gmon_start__ \ libc.so.6 \ fflush \ exit \ strncpy \ puts \ putchar \ memset \ getchar
01:57:06 <oerjan> oh maybe there aren't that many
01:57:23 <oerjan> `` strings bin/fueue | tail -25 | head
01:57:27 <HackEgo> 08 1 \ 11 4 \ 4 32 \ 119 \ 111 \ 114 \ 108 \ 100 \ 33 H \ 10 HH
01:58:03 <oerjan> `` strings bin/fueue | paste
01:58:06 <Moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/71ab5gx8
01:58:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.12763
01:58:15 <HackEgo> mv: missing file operand \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
01:58:17 <HackEgo> 2016-04-28 00:58:09 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/71ab5gx8 [375] -> "71ab5gx8" [1]
01:58:22 <HackEgo> Usage: mv [OPTION]... [-T] SOURCE DEST \ or: mv [OPTION]... SOURCE... DIRECTORY \ or: mv [OPTION]... -t DIRECTORY SOURCE... \ Rename SOURCE to DEST, or move SOURCE(s) to DIRECTORY. \ \ Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too. \ --backup[=CONTROL] make a backup of each existing destination file \
01:58:45 <Moon_> `mv 71ab5gx8 /bin/
01:58:47 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `71ab5gx8 /bin/' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
01:58:54 <oerjan> hm looks like it's actually C
01:58:59 <Moon_> `mv 71ab5gx8.../bin/
01:59:00 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `71ab5gx8.../bin/' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
01:59:15 <HackEgo> 71ab5gx8: file not recognized: File format not recognized \ collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
01:59:16 <Sgeo> HackEgo is Gregor's, right?
01:59:30 <Moon_> can you compile it oerjan?
02:00:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rn: not found
02:00:42 <HackEgo> mv: missing file operand \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
02:00:50 <HackEgo> Usage: mv [OPTION]... [-T] SOURCE DEST \ or: mv [OPTION]... SOURCE... DIRECTORY \ or: mv [OPTION]... -t DIRECTORY SOURCE... \ Rename SOURCE to DEST, or move SOURCE(s) to DIRECTORY. \ \ Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too. \ --backup[=CONTROL] make a backup of each existing destination file \
02:01:00 <oerjan> `` gcc -x c 71ab5gx8 -o bin/moonlang
02:01:08 <Moon_> dude its not moonlang
02:01:21 <oerjan> Moon_: i recommend saying that before asking hth
02:01:23 <HackEgo> 71ab5gx8: In function ‘main’: \ 71ab5gx8:5:30: warning: character constant too long for its type [enabled by default] \ 71ab5gx8:5:40: warning: character constant too long for its type [enabled by default] \ 71ab5gx8:5:1: warning: overflow in implicit constant conversion [-Woverflow]
02:01:51 <HackEgo> 99 bottles of beer in the wall, \ 99 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it round, \ 98 }bottles of beer in the wall \ \ 98 bottles of beer in the wall, \ 98 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it round, \ 97 }bottles of beer in the wall \ \ 97 bottles of beer in the wall, \ 97 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it round, \ 96 }bottl
02:01:53 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 7202 Apr 28 01:01 bin/moonlang
02:02:14 <Moon_> you compiled 99 bottles of beer on the wall thinking it was my language lel
02:02:32 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
02:02:49 <oerjan> `` gcc -x c 71ab5gx8 -o 99bb
02:02:59 <HackEgo> 71ab5gx8: In function ‘main’: \ 71ab5gx8:5:30: warning: character constant too long for its type [enabled by default] \ 71ab5gx8:5:40: warning: character constant too long for its type [enabled by default] \ 71ab5gx8:5:1: warning: overflow in implicit constant conversion [-Woverflow]
02:03:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/99b: No such file or directory
02:03:25 <HackEgo> 99 bottles of beer in the wall, \ 99 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it round, \ 98 }bottles of beer in the wall \ \ 98 bottles of beer in the wall, \ 98 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it round, \ 97 }bottles of beer in the wall \ \ 97 bottles of beer in the wall, \ 97 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it round, \ 96 }bottl
02:04:17 <Moon_> thats a bug im too lazy to gix
02:04:33 <Moon_> due to the fact i challanged myself to compact code when i made it
02:05:51 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
02:06:11 <HackEgo> izabera izabera izabera izabera
02:06:30 <HackEgo> b=bottle a=({no+more+$b\s,1+$b,{2..99}+$b\s}+of+beer) w=on+the+wall \ x=(Take+one+down,+pass+it+around Go+to+the+store+and+buy+some+more) \ for i in {99..0};{ \ echo "${a[i]^} $w, ${a[i]}. \ ${x[!i]}, ${a[i-1]} $w." \ }|tr + \
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02:06:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 99: not found
02:06:47 <Kaynato> I mean, er, when we pass in the input through IRC, does HackEgo recieve chars
02:07:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: u: not found
02:07:03 <Kaynato> I mean well it does receive a string of chars, yes
02:07:13 <Kaynato> One character per byte, yes
02:07:29 <oerjan> Kaynato: however, if you send utf-8, it gets utf-8
02:08:27 <fizzie> `moonlang +jr++++[-p++++++++p+++++++++++++++++++++PP]p+++op+o++++++++oP[-P++p]P---------J------------------o+++++++++++++++o* this is a rather suboptimal quine here;J
02:08:28 <HackEgo> +jr++++[-p++++++++p+++++++++++++++++++++PP]p+++op+o++++++++oP[-P++p]P---------J------------------o+++++++++++++++o* this is a rather suboptimal quine here;J
02:09:35 <HackEgo> â!$'*-0369<?BEHKNQTWZ]`cfilorux{~¢¥¨«®±´·º½ÀÃÆÉÌÏÒÕØÛÞáäçêíðóöùüÿ #&),/258;>ADGJMPSVY\_behknqtwz}¡¤§ª°³¶¹¼¿ÂÅÈËÎÑÔ×ÚÝàãæéìïòõøûþ. \
02:09:43 <Moon_> yup its not a batch trick either
02:10:08 <fizzie> It wouldn't look that crummy if it were.
02:10:26 <oerjan> `` moonlang "$(moonlang '+jr++++[-p++++++++p+++++++++++++++++++++PP]p+++op+o++++++++oP[-P++p]P---------J------------------o+++++++++++++++o* this is a rather suboptimal quine here;J')"
02:10:28 <HackEgo> +jr++++[-p++++++++p+++++++++++++++++++++PP]p+++op+o++++++++oP[-P++p]P---------J------------------o+++++++++++++++o* this is a rather suboptimal quine here;J
02:11:38 <Moon_> its shorter than a brainfuck quine :P
02:13:09 <Moon_> ^bf ++++++++++[->++++++++++<]>-.+..+.-....-.+.+.+..-.+.-.
02:13:09 <fizzie> It's really just +jr <print "+jr"> J <print ";J">* ;J with a little bit of number-mangling to have the first J jump to the 'r', and the second J to the part that prints the ;J
02:13:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CIOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46856&oldid=46855 * 76.1.78.41 * (+226) The first quine has been made!
02:14:34 <Moon_> how many esolangs have you been the first to make a quine in
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02:15:18 <fizzie> Most likely 0, not counting this one.
02:15:48 <Moon_> Fizzie made the first quine in CIOL
02:16:05 <Moon_> `moonlang +jr++++[-p++++++++p+++++++++++++++++++++PP]p+++op+o++++++++oP[-P++p]P---------J------------------o+++++++++++++++o* this is a rather suboptimal quine here;J
02:16:07 <HackEgo> +jr++++[-p++++++++p+++++++++++++++++++++PP]p+++op+o++++++++oP[-P++p]P---------J------------------o+++++++++++++++o* this is a rather suboptimal quine here;J
02:16:43 <Moon_> you could shorten it by using the mathmatical functions and registers that are implented
02:17:12 <fizzie> Probably, but I'm more of a brainfuck programmer.
02:18:36 <hppavilion[1]> If primary storage is RAM, secondary storage is disk, and tertiary storage is that which you access via a robotic arm, then what's quaternary storage?
02:19:17 <Moon_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/CIOL
02:19:24 <Moon_> you can read the specs there
02:19:30 <fizzie> Underload is the canonical quine-making language.
02:22:24 <Moon_> who wants to try and make 99 bottles of beer?
02:22:31 <Moon_> most languages have it :P
02:24:27 <Moon_> i can _print_ 99 bottles of bea
02:24:50 <Moon_> `moonlang r99 bottles of beer;
02:25:08 * Moon_ is a lazy person sometimes
02:25:20 <\oren\> alhtough some people pronounce it bea
02:25:22 <Moon_> i have a challange for toy all
02:25:34 <\oren\> those people are what I call worng
02:26:41 <Kaynato> Have you checked out Daoyu, Moon_?
02:27:35 <hppavilion[1]> What kinds of instructions does a Geoemetry and Construction Unit (GCU) handle I wonder?
02:28:15 <Kaynato> Compass_set(point A, point B)
02:28:43 <Kaynato> You've got an origin point, an unset compass...
02:28:48 <hppavilion[1]> Kaynato: But I'm thinking the origamic one rather than compass-and-straightedge
02:28:56 <Kaynato> Oh, ok. That's something different, yes. Hm
02:30:01 <hppavilion[1]> Though neither works very well for a CPU; perhaps a new model is in order
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02:30:58 <Kaynato> Operating on a sheet of paper.
02:32:54 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently the reason that you cannot double a cube is because root(2, 3) is not constructible
02:33:26 <hppavilion[1]> Which is because ruler-and-compass can only construct the roots of quadratics
02:33:40 <hppavilion[1]> (quadratics over the field of other constructed points)
02:34:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is there some hierarchy of construction tools I have not been told about?
02:34:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: probably? i'm not an expert but i understand a marked ruler is more powerful than a straightedge
02:35:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: What exactly does a marked ruler have? I mean, marks obviously, but what do they mean?
02:35:41 <oerjan> possibly just one mark, i'm not sure
02:36:06 <oerjan> you need at least two.
02:36:31 <oerjan> i don't remember, see wikipedia probably
02:37:29 <oerjan> two _might_ be enough to get some extra power.
02:39:30 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's exactly exactly as powerful as origami
02:39:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Also, once you have 2 you effectively have infinitely many
02:40:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: My proof seems to have broken in my head, so I'll have to rethink
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02:44:20 <Kaynato> ! is a Daoyu source command, so I will have to use something else as the input delimiter
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02:46:42 <Kaynato> What characters is HackEgo sensitive to?
02:47:46 <Kaynato> Only at the beginning? I mean inside of input
02:47:49 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: What's the weirdest toolset that could be used for construction
02:48:05 <Kaynato> Is there a convention for delimiting input?
02:49:38 <Kaynato> For example, passing in inputs to the I/O of BF
02:51:01 <oerjan> Kaynato: for BF the convention is !
02:51:10 <Kaynato> Ah, ok. So it's just for BF.
02:51:22 <oerjan> some other HackEgo commands use //
02:51:42 <oerjan> because it's redundant in filepaths
02:52:39 <oerjan> and of course some use space
02:53:26 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
02:53:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: silly putty hth
02:54:30 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Are there concrete-feeling construction methods (like straightedge-and-compass) for other fields?
02:55:19 <oerjan> lambda calculus is pretty concrete hth
02:56:07 <huh> SKI-combinator calculus is where it's at
02:57:23 <hppavilion[2]> The study of logical reasoning in the form of silly drawings on paper?
02:57:27 * oerjan wonders if manifold surgery counts. not that he's sure what it is.
02:58:27 <mad> how about a family of geometric shapes
02:59:18 <mad> where determining if one of shapes in the parametric family is connected (or it's genus aka number of holes) is turing complete?
03:00:18 * oerjan hits mad's apostrophe out of the ball park
03:01:20 <mad> like, the shape keeps going on, and it can either start a new section (disconnedted, calculation stops) or stop going on (connected, calculation stops), or it can keep going on forever (infinite loop)
03:11:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[//////////]]": content before blanking was: "blobfish"
03:24:39 <huh> does anyone have that hilarious quote from the guy who didn't know this channel was about programming?
03:28:01 <Kaynato> Command prompt is sensitive to "<"
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03:37:41 <HackEgo> 147) <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python \ 484) <zzo38> I think Perl is a programming language too. [...] \ 515) <monqy> one time I tried cpp programming <monqy> it was hellish <monqy> maybe I should try again \ 553) <oklopol> so you are doing for compilers what imperative prog
03:38:58 <oerjan> `` quote programming | tail -n +4
03:39:03 <HackEgo> 553) <oklopol> so you are doing for compilers what imperative programming did for functional programming \ 685) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming languages specifically for stoned people \ 713) <Edwin Brady> Just seen this comment on reddit: "Parallel programming has been a solved problem for decades." I might have to stop
03:39:17 <oerjan> `` quote programming | tail -n +6
03:39:18 <HackEgo> 713) <Edwin Brady> Just seen this comment on reddit: "Parallel programming has been a solved problem for decades." I might have to stop reading the internet. \ 861) <kmc> i'm looking for a haskell-like programming language, meaning that it supports nesting multi-line comments \ 942) <kmc> it's almost like Haskell is a programming language and not s
03:39:25 <oerjan> `` quote programming | tail -n +8
03:39:26 <HackEgo> 942) <kmc> it's almost like Haskell is a programming language and not some kind of mathematical rhetorical arguing device \ 1002) <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/
03:39:38 <oerjan> `` quote programming | tail -n +10
03:39:39 <HackEgo> 1038) <Bike> I'm glad I quit programming to take up listening to numbers stations \ 1164) <fungot> boily: i'll probably stop programming the day i will hit the end of the program.
03:40:29 <huh> oerjan: it was years ago
03:40:48 <huh> it was something very weird like "we are all trapped in a box"?
03:41:12 <oerjan> huh: we made it our wiki tagline hth
03:41:26 <HackEgo> 240) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
03:41:32 <huh> ah yes that's it
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03:47:07 <huh> Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity.
03:49:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i'm afraid treederwright did not stay long enough to properly enlighten us, although i suspect e found it futile since we are, after all, locked in our matrix of solidity. hth.
03:52:27 -!- huh has left.
03:52:53 <Kaynato> alright, done with the command line daoyu interpreter
03:53:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: If anyone has the key to the matrix of solidity, please hand it in at the desk | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Varanasi (not Kashi).
03:54:47 -!- mad has left.
03:59:18 <HackEgo> 1183) <fowl> one day we'll be able to put evil people inside mirrors and throw them into space like superman 2
03:59:28 <fowl> I'm immortal!!!
04:00:33 <HackEgo> 1277 25654 153531 quotes
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04:50:51 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
04:51:19 <Kaynato> So, I just `fetch <pastebin url> ?
04:53:29 <Kaynato> would commented and documented code be appreciated or would obfuscated code...
04:54:08 <oerjan> the .c is only temporary anyway
04:54:16 <Kaynato> true, obfuscated code it is
04:54:27 <Kaynato> well at the least, less readable, more compact
04:54:36 <Kaynato> I do not think I have enough time today for a full-blown obfuscation
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05:44:43 <\oren\> sometimes the way I code my home projects is accidental obfuscation
05:45:21 <FreeFull> https://github.com/FreeFull/ircclient/ Does anything seem particularly obfuscated about this code?
05:45:45 <\oren\> becuase I don't leave comments, use a lot of macros to avoid typing long words, and use single letter variable names
05:47:00 <\oren\> like #define ei else if
05:47:54 <FreeFull> \oren\: All comments in the code I linked are TODOs
05:48:09 <FreeFull> And there are a few single letter variable names too
05:49:09 <FreeFull> https://github.com/FreeFull/ircclient/blob/master/src/tui/mod.rs#L84-L109
05:53:47 <\oren\> Hmm, maybe "obfuscation" is too harsh a word for the style of programming which exists to save typing at the cost of comprehension
05:55:37 <FreeFull> Yeah, I don't bother saving my typing by making my code overly short
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06:41:51 <hppavilion[2]> I seem to have just learned about p-adic number by mistake
06:43:07 <Kaynato> Ok, good: http://pastebin.com/raw/aJGM6eAB
06:43:15 <Kaynato> so now I do `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/aJGM6eAB
06:44:38 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
06:44:45 <Kaynato> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/aJGM6eAB
06:45:08 <Kaynato> I am not entirely sure I have done this correctly
06:45:16 <HackEgo> 2016-04-28 05:44:57 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/aJGM6eAB [3485] -> "aJGM6eAB" [1]
06:45:16 <HackEgo> wget: unable to resolve host address `bone'
06:45:36 <Kaynato> So now I compile this, yes
06:46:50 <Kaynato> `gcc aJGM6eAB -o dao.exe -ansi -O3
06:47:03 <HackEgo> gcc: error: aJGM6eAB -o dao.exe -ansi -O3: No such file or directory \ gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated.
06:47:29 <FreeFull> I think you need to rename it to have a .c extension
06:47:35 <HackEgo> :-( bdsmreclist dog factor interps paste src \ !\\.´ bin emoticons foo karma ply-3.8 theorems \ 71ab5gx8 canary equations good le quine tmflry \ 99 cat esobible hia lib quines wisdom \ 99bb Complaints.mp3 etc hw ls_dev quotes wisdom.pdf \ aJGM6eAB :-D evil i
06:47:37 <HackEgo> :-( \ !\.´ \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ aJGM6eAB \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
06:47:48 <FreeFull> Also just using ` won't work, you need `run
06:48:24 <FreeFull> `run gcc daoyu.c -o dao -ansi -O3
06:48:51 <HackEgo> daoyu.c: In function ‘FB’: \ daoyu.c:43:41: warning: ignoring return value of ‘realloc’, declared with attribute warn_unused_result [-Wunused-result] \ daoyu.c:43:59: warning: ignoring return value of ‘realloc’, declared with attribute warn_unused_result [-Wunused-result]
06:49:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dao: not found
06:50:10 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 15629 Apr 28 05:48 dao
06:50:18 <FreeFull> It's there and it's executable
06:50:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dao: not found
06:50:36 <FreeFull> `run ./dao '$$$^>;:^<@TESTING'
06:51:45 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
06:51:52 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bf: No such file or directory
06:52:07 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ bookofeso \
06:52:56 <Kaynato> `run dao $$$^>;:^<@TESTING
06:52:57 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `;' \ bash: -c: line 0: `dao $$$^>;:^<@TESTING'
06:53:06 <Kaynato> `run dao $$$^>^;:^<@TESTING
06:53:08 <HackEgo> bash: @TESTING: No such file or directory
06:53:17 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `;' \ bash: -c: line 0: `dao $$$>;:<@TESTING'
06:53:23 <Kaynato> `run dao "$$$>;:<@TESTING"
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06:53:29 <Kaynato> `run dao '$$$>;:<@TESTING'
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06:54:55 <oerjan> Kaynato: you should _not_ need run for dao itself, if it works as i suggested.
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06:58:38 <oerjan> @tell Kaynato you should _not_ need `run for dao itself, if it works as i suggested.
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10:01:50 <fizzie> Huh, I didn't notice the 'R' instruction at all.
10:01:51 <fizzie> `moonlang +jrR+Rj++++[-p++++P]pJ[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
10:01:52 <HackEgo> +jR+Rj++++[-p++++P]pJ[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
10:01:56 <fizzie> That's so much simpler.
10:06:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CIOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46857&oldid=46856 * Fizzie * (+126) Formatting & much nicer quine.
10:07:30 <fizzie> FreeFull: For the record, "gcc -x c file.with.whatever.extension" is also an alternative.
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12:12:32 <lambdabot> CYUL 281100Z 33007KT 30SM FEW120 M00/M10 A3011 RMK AC1 AC TR SLP199
12:12:50 <boily> negative cow isn't good weather for riding a bike.
12:13:08 * boily has unsatisfied biking urges!
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12:19:28 <lambdabot> EGLL 281050Z AUTO 26009KT 220V290 9999 NCD 10/M03 Q1014 NOSIG
12:19:48 <fizzie> They say next week it's going to get warm.
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14:17:03 <b_jonas> In windows, is it normal that .LNK (and also .PIF) are not in my $ENV{PATHEXT} ?
14:31:38 <fizzie> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/fd7hxfdd(v=vs.84).aspx "PATHEXT -- typically .com, .exe, .bat, or .cmd".
14:32:28 <fizzie> Although I guess that "typically" could be referring to typical executables, not typical contents of the environment variable.
14:33:32 <fizzie> (Also: .PIF files, so retro.)
15:08:08 <int-e> problem identification format
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15:09:07 <int-e> (but I'm afraid I know the correct expansion as well... and google just confirmed that suspicion)
15:09:44 <b_jonas> I don't know the expansion, I would guess it's program information file or something meaningless like that
15:10:50 <int-e> and your guess would be correct
15:17:22 <fizzie> Pressure-injected footing.
15:19:06 <lambdabot> *** "piffle" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
15:19:06 <lambdabot> n 1: trivial nonsense [syn: {balderdash}, {fiddle-faddle},
15:19:06 <lambdabot> v 1: speak (about unimportant matters) rapidly and incessantly
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15:39:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Moon * New user account
15:40:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CIOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46858&oldid=46857 * Moon * (+34)
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15:49:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CIOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46859&oldid=46858 * Moon * (+166) Added some more samples
15:52:41 <Melvar> @let type Jq = Kleisli []
15:53:40 <Melvar> @let jeach :: Jq [a] a; jeach = Kleisli id
15:54:31 <Melvar> @let jlist :: Jq a b -> Jq a [b]; jlist (Kleisli alb) = Kleisli $ \a -> [alb a]
15:56:15 <Melvar> Now, in jq map is defined as: def map(f): [ .[] | f ];
15:56:51 <Melvar> @let jmap :: Jq a b -> Jq [a] [b]; jmap f = jlist $ jeach >>> f
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16:04:53 <Melvar> @let jcomma :: Jq a b -> Jq a b -> Jq a b; jcomma (Kleisli f) (Kleisli g) = Kleisli $ \x -> f x ++ g x
16:12:20 <int-e> Yay, what could possibly go wrong... "Value range propagation now assumes that the this pointer of C++ member functions is non-null."
16:13:05 <int-e> and this is why it's bad when language standards are written by compiler writers :P
16:15:04 <int-e> source: https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-6/changes.html under "general optimizer improvements"
16:18:04 <Melvar> int-e: I’ve heard a complaint about this. My question is how you manage to call a member function with null this at all.
16:18:52 <xfix> I'm surprised that this is not a reference in C++ myself. I guess this was before references were in a language.
16:20:29 <xfix> Melvar: Well, if a method in question is not virtual, I don't see why it wouldn't work, method calls don't look at value to determine which method to call in C++.
16:20:42 <b_jonas> xfix: the semantics is that the member function is called with the invocant passed as a reference, which is why it must point to a valid object rather than null. this is a pointer only for historical reasons, because this existed in ancient C++ before C++ references were invented.
16:21:16 <b_jonas> There's still an invocant, which is a reference, but this gives its address.
16:21:37 <b_jonas> Since you can just write *this, it wouldn't make sense to introduce a new language feature to replace this.
16:21:59 <xfix> Well, I guess a->b is a syntactic sugar for (*a)->b, so there is a dereference.
16:22:28 <b_jonas> xfix: yes, a->b is usually syntactic sugar for (*a).b
16:22:34 <xfix> On basic level, I guess it's different with operator overloading.
16:22:51 <xfix> And because (*a) is undefined behaviour when a is NULL, somebody went and said this is undefined behaviour.
16:23:03 <xfix> Even if a method technically gets a pointer.
16:23:18 <b_jonas> xfix: no, the method gets a reference, not a pointer
16:23:27 <b_jonas> this just gives its address
16:24:31 <Melvar> b_jonas: You mean, “this” means something like “&real_this”?
16:26:14 <b_jonas> xfix: this is especially obvious in C++11, in which there are member functions you can call only on a reference to rvalue as invocant, and ones you can call only on a reference to lvalue as invocant (the invocant still seems like a ref to rvalue from inside the method, just like how it would happen with a function argument), and a pointer doesn't carry an lvalue/rvalue distinction.
16:26:33 <b_jonas> Melvar: sort of. as in, it would make more sense if it worked that way.
16:27:42 <xfix> Either way, a->b being a syntactic sugar for (*a).b made Stroustrup realize it can dereference a NULL pointer, and because NULL pointer dereference is undefined behaviour in C, it's going to stay in C++.
16:29:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:CIOL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46860 * Fizzie * (+731) Wiki talk pages == bug trackers, right?
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16:59:35 <int-e> Melvar: C++ has static type information. For non-virtual methods, you don't need to look at the object's data in order to figure out where the method that you're calling is.
17:02:31 <int-e> I agree that C++ code shouldn't rely on this. But apparently significant code bases *do* rely on it, so... it's quite nasty to just change the behavior.
17:09:17 <b_jonas> int-e: it's not really a change, it was always that way in the language, it's just that gcc now optimizes using that by default (but there's a switch of gcc to override that for old non-compliant programs)
17:10:13 <b_jonas> There are lots of old (and sometimes new) programs doing things the language doesn't allow, and they sometimes get away with it for a while when compilers are still young. Signed integer overflows and some invalid pointer arithmetic are the most important.
17:10:46 <xfix> To think integer overflow was undefined to allow implementations to just error on integer overflow.
17:10:53 <xfix> Some CPUs actually have hardware traps for integer overflow.
17:11:31 <b_jonas> xfix: no, the goal is also to allow compilers to derive bounds, especially to simplify inline functions
17:11:44 <xfix> But then compiler writers realized that it's undefined, so they can do whatever they like, even if the intent of this rule was to allow integer overflow trapping.
17:14:05 <xfix> C standard did not make behaviour undefined because they did like it. I don't think standard authors were too concerned about optimizing compilers of the future.
17:14:39 <xfix> I mean, technically strict aliasing is a performance optimization, but other undefined behaviours have a reason, even if it's "nobody should depend on that".
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17:16:17 <xfix> Or just "out of scope" for a specification, like "program must end with newline" (if a program doesn't, it's undefined behaviour).
17:19:30 <b_jonas> xfix: the integer overflow is a performance optimization too. it allows a lot of optimizations. if you don't want it, then you have to use unsigned additions, or an integer wrapper class that does unsigned addition and subtraction and bitshift, but signed comparison.
17:20:14 <xfix> I do wonder how integer overflow behaves in FORTRAN, considering C had to compete with it.
17:21:03 <b_jonas> xfix: did C really have to compete with fortran? C started as a system programming language, it had to complete with assembly languages for the processors of that day.
17:21:23 <xfix> Was integer overflow undefined in assembly?
17:22:20 <b_jonas> xfix: cpu level usually has very few undefined behavior, and much fewer undefined results than C.
17:22:42 <b_jonas> So I don't think there's any cpu arch that has an integer overflow that gives even an undefined result.
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17:23:20 <xfix> Which would make sense for C to allow overflow, just like Assembly. Pretty sure the reasoning for "undefined behaviour" wasn't as much as let compilers do some crazy optimizations, but rather to allow C to work on machines where integer overflow triggers a hardware trap.
17:23:30 <xfix> C doesn't define trapping.
17:23:57 <b_jonas> xfix: I don't know what its original reason was, but it's a good thing NOW that the signed integer overflow gives an undefined result in C
17:24:12 <b_jonas> because it REALLY does let the compiler optimize a lot of boundary checks
17:24:20 <b_jonas> and it will become even better as compilers improve.
17:24:22 <xfix> That much, I can probably agree with, but I don't think spec authors made it an undefined behaviour to allow optimizations.
17:24:53 <fizzie> b_jonas: The mythical "numerical programming community" is used approximately all the time as a justification for decisions in the C99 rationale document.
17:24:54 <b_jonas> xfix: I don't know. When was the first spec made? In 1989?
17:25:14 <xfix> Integer overflow optimizations are quite recent. I do wonder what was the first compiler which used integer overflow for optimization purposes.
17:26:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i suppose it comes down to the history of when compilers started optimising out branches with undefined behaviour
17:27:09 <b_jonas> xfix: I don't think they're that recent. An array access pattern like for (int i = 0; i < s; i++) { f(a[i]); } is common, so it's often optimized, and if sizeof(*a) is not a power of two, than especially on old cpus (before pentium) when multiplies were expensive, it was worth to optimize it
17:27:54 <b_jonas> xfix: the compiler would optimize that by keeping track of either sizeof(*a)*i or of a+i
17:28:07 <xfix> I do wonder, where overflow comes into play here?
17:28:14 <fizzie> (At least VLAs were added explicitly to compete with FORTRAN.)
17:28:20 <b_jonas> hmm wait, that's a bad example
17:28:31 <xfix> Like, I understand `i` can overflow, but before that happens, pretty sure you will exceed the size of `a` array.
17:28:42 <xfix> Unless somehow `a` array takes entire memory.
17:28:51 <xfix> Without leaving a byte for anything else.
17:29:04 <b_jonas> xfix: no, it's the s*sizeof(a) that overflows, in which case you have to keep track of i to compare it
17:29:47 <fizzie> "In C89, division of integers involving negative operands could round upward or downward in an implementation-defined manner; the intent was to avoid incurring overhead in run-time code to check for special cases and enforce specific behavior. In Fortran, however, the result will always truncate toward zero, and the overhead seems to be acceptable to the numeric programming community. ...
17:29:53 <fizzie> ... Therefore, C99 now requires similar behavior, which should facilitate porting of code from Fortran to C."
17:29:55 <b_jonas> this is a bad example, so scratch that
17:30:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: that one is because the cpus where the built-in division truncates to zero have won
17:30:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: it's rounding down that you want more often, but cpus do truncation
17:30:53 <xfix> Just use unsigned compare in this specific case, if it overflows after multiplication, chances are you would read more memory than you can address to begin with.
17:31:15 <xfix> Unsigned, because in theory you can take over a half of memory space.
17:32:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok, actually no, because if the division is by a power of two constant, then the compiler optimizes it to a shift, which rounds down, so in that case the truncation is _slightly_ more expensive (it's just two fast extra instructions to truncate).
17:32:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: but in the case of a variable divisor, all current cpus except for mmix do truncating division.
17:33:49 <b_jonas> (And mmix is currently rarely used for performance-sensitive computations.)
17:34:17 <xfix> I don't really like "zero truncating" division mechanics, but that's how it works.
17:36:18 <xfix> I mean, by themselves they aren't a problem, but modulo is defined as `a - (n * (a//n))`.
17:36:53 <xfix> With zero truncating, when you ask for `-2 % 10`, you get `-2` which is less than useful.
17:37:11 <b_jonas> xfix: yes, that's what I'm saying, division rounding down is more often useful. but in reality, you just need both, in different cases.
18:03:58 <fizzie> I have mentioned this many times, but since I still find it amusing -- at one point, the R7RS Scheme draft had 7 different variants of quotient and remainder.
18:04:24 <fizzie> {floor,ceiling,centered,truncate,round,euclidean}-{quotient,remainder}.
18:06:27 <fizzie> Oh, right, 7, because there's also the non-prefixed one.
18:06:32 <fizzie> And / for each of them.
18:07:49 <fizzie> So {floor,ceiling,centered,truncate,round,euclidean}{-quotient,-remainder,/} + quotient + remainder + modulo. (No plain /.)
18:08:43 <fizzie> In the final version they cut it down a little, and only have {floor,truncate}{-quotient,-remainder,/} + quotient + remainder + modulo.
18:09:32 <fizzie> Oh, there's a plain /, it's just not on the same list because it doesn't give exact integer results for exact integer arguments.
18:10:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, iirc r5rs has two built-in modulus operations and NEITHER OF THEM ARE THE NORMAL TRUNCATING OR ROUND DOWN VERSION WE'RE USED TO.
18:10:22 <fizzie> quotient -> truncate-quotient, remainder -> truncate-remainder, modulo -> floor-remainder.
18:10:31 <b_jonas> I can't quite follow what r6rs does but it's just riddiculously wrong
18:10:44 <b_jonas> in general, scheme was designed by people who don't know how numbers in computers work
18:11:06 <b_jonas> the whole language has this ridiculously elaborate theoretical system for numeric types that doesn't actually work
18:12:15 <fizzie> The R7RS ones are arguably reasonable. It has the above mappings, and the definitions of floor(n1/n2) and truncate(n1/n2) for the quotient + the obvious definition for the remainder such that (= n1 (+ (* n2 (x-quotient n1 n2)) (x-remainder n1 n2))) is true.
18:12:22 <b_jonas> luckily of course, it's loose enough that specific implementations just do the special case of having normal numeric types and add normal numeric functions in their library
18:13:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think at one point scheme had a round to nearest modulo, and a modulo that either rounds down or truncates but does the unusual thing for a negative divisor
18:14:40 <b_jonas> luckily negative divisor matters much less than positive divisors
18:14:48 <fizzie> The R7RS draft ones were quite... comprehensive. The ceiling, floor, truncate, round variants are defined via the quotient (with the obvious meanings); the euclidean-quotient is floor-quotient for a positive and ceiling-quotient for a negative divisor; and the centered-quotient chooses the quotient so that -|n2 / 2| <= remainder < |n2 / 2|.
18:35:48 <prooftechnique> @tell hppavilion[1] https://xkcd.com/903/ <- alt text. Enjoy
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21:54:50 <fizzie> HackEgo's done the thing where it hasn't rejoined.
21:56:04 <fizzie> No, there it is -- I just can't see.
21:57:08 <fizzie> The wiki bridge had gone down, though.
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22:10:39 <Moon_> `complaints chat is empty
22:10:44 <Moon_> `complaint chat is empty
22:10:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: complaint: not found
22:11:01 <Moon_> `complain chat is empty
22:11:04 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
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22:11:54 <fizzie> I filed a bug report about there that interpreter, FWIW.
22:13:24 <fizzie> See https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:CIOL
22:14:24 <Moon_> how should i fix it?
22:14:30 <Moon_> \ alone is a excape code
22:14:37 <fizzie> By not having a "\" at the end of the line.
22:14:53 <fizzie> There's nothing wrong with '\\', the problem is with the \ in the comment.
22:15:05 <fizzie> Which extends the comment to continue to the next line.
22:15:16 <Moon_> just remove the comment and its fixed
22:15:33 <fizzie> (Incidentally, it's "escape".)
22:19:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:CIOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46861&oldid=46860 * Moon * (+52)
22:19:35 <Moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/BGTV9E93
22:19:39 <HackEgo> 2016-04-28 21:19:38 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/BGTV9E93 [3761] -> "BGTV9E93" [1]
22:19:48 <HackEgo> gcc: error: missing argument to ‘-h’ \ gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated.
22:19:56 <HackEgo> gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated.
22:20:03 <HackEgo> Usage: gcc [options] file... \ Options: \ -pass-exit-codes Exit with highest error code from a phase \ --help Display this information \ --target-help Display target specific command line options \ --help={common|optimizers|params|target|warnings|[^]{joined|separate|undocumented}}[,...] \
22:20:04 <HackEgo> Usage: gcc [options] file... \ Options: \ -pass-exit-codes Exit with highest error code from a phase \ --help Display this information \ --target-help Display target specific command line options \ --help={common|optimizers|params|target|warnings|[^]{joined|separate|undocumented}}[,...] \
22:20:34 <HackEgo> BGTV9E93: file not recognized: File format not recognized \ collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
22:21:07 <fizzie> `` gcc -x c BGTV9E93 -o bin/moonlang
22:21:14 <Moon_> do you know how to compile on hackbo- ohthx
22:22:05 <fizzie> Do you mind if I change the echo / reverse echo examples to accept inputs of arbitrary lengths? The fixed 5-character versions seem a bit arbitrary.
22:22:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:CIOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46862&oldid=46861 * Moon * (+99) /* BUG REPORTING */ new section
22:23:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CIOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46863&oldid=46859 * Fizzie * (-114) Genericize.
22:23:28 <Moon_> `` echo derpp | moonlang rEnter a five character long word or sequence;ipipipipipPPPPPopopopopop*
22:23:29 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: 296 Done echo derpp \ 297 Segmentation fault | moonlang rEnter a five character long word or sequence \ /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: ipipipipipPPPPPopopopopop*: command not found
22:23:56 <fizzie> You need a bit of quoting for the argument.
22:24:03 <fizzie> `` echo derpp | moonlang 'rEnter a five character long word or sequence;ipipipipipPPPPPopopopopop*'
22:24:04 <HackEgo> Enter a five character long word or sequencederpp
22:24:25 <fizzie> (Otherwise argv[1] will be just "rEnter".)
22:25:25 <Moon_> Also thanks for your work in CIOL :P
22:25:30 <fizzie> The `foo x y z syntax is close to `` foo 'x y z' in that it implicitly puts everything in one argument.
22:26:09 <fizzie> `` echo ding dong | moonlang '+++j[-oi+]'
22:26:11 <fizzie> `` echo ding dong | moonlang '++j[pi+]P[-oP]'
22:26:31 <fizzie> It reverses the newline as well.
22:26:39 <fizzie> So the output is an empty line followed by "gnod gnid".
22:26:57 <fizzie> `` echo -n ding dong | moonlang '++j[pi+]P[-oP]' # workaround
22:28:04 <Moon_> `` echo -n abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxy and z| moonlang '++j[pi+]P[-oP]' #Ok moonlang, its time to learn your abcs!
22:28:06 <HackEgo> z dna yxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba
22:29:54 <Moon_> i wonder how long a bottles of beer program in CIOL would be
22:31:08 <fizzie> Probably not *too* bad, with r. About the only slightly complicated piece is the decimal output.
22:31:25 <fizzie> I had an incredibly overcomplicated variant of +++j[-oi+], built on the idea of doing a conditional jump based on the fact that (n+1)/n is 2 for n == 1 and 1 for any n > 1. I don't know why the obvious solution didn't immediately occur to me.
22:31:55 <Moon_> any additions to the page are not minded
22:31:59 <Moon_> including improvements
22:32:07 <fizzie> `` echo like this | moonlang '[i++p+P/+p-P/dp++P\p-P[-p+++++++P]p--------jP\---o]'
22:32:28 <Moon_> i like how you used the registers
22:32:41 <fizzie> Well, it needs the (n+1)/n.
22:32:51 <fizzie> (That's why I noticed the \ thing.)
22:33:14 <Moon_> well its good you had the overcomplicated idea first
22:33:23 <Moon_> otherwise the bug would've slipped by for longer
22:34:35 <Moon_> i've been thinking on a language that has no memory besides the memory that stores the program, and it is self modifying
22:34:47 <Moon_> sounds like a pain, eh?
22:35:20 <Moon_> leme see if i can find my theoretical hello world example
22:36:33 <Moon_> Hello, World!.001.002.003.004.005.006.007.008.009.010.011.012.013
22:36:49 <Moon_> even tho Hello world is in text
22:37:03 <Moon_> Ansii character table is smaller
22:37:51 <Moon_> <NUL>.001+001=0010019<<ansii 255>
22:42:35 <Moon_> Fizzie, i have a challange for you
22:42:50 <Moon_> well really more of a question
22:43:43 <Moon_> how do you compare values in bf?
22:48:00 <impomatic_> Decrement both and set a flag depending which one reached zero first?
22:49:22 <fizzie> See https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms for x == y, x != y, x <= y etc.
22:50:06 <\oren\> apparently qmericans dont like catsup flavord chips! why?!?!
22:51:42 <Moon_> im american, dont say dat
22:52:35 <Moon_> `bf x >>++++++++++<<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>>++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[- <+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]>>[>++++++[-<++++++++>]<.<<+>+>[-]]<[<[->-<]++++++[->++++++++ <]>.[-]]<<++++++[-<++++++++>]<.[-]<<[-<+>]<
22:53:59 <Moon_> `bf temp0[-] temp1[-] temp2[-] y[temp1+temp2+y-]temp2[y+temp2-] z[temp0+temp2+z-]temp2[z+temp2-] x>>[[>>]+[<<]>>-]+ [>>]<[-]<[<<] >[>[>>]<+<[<<]>-] >[>>]<<[-<<]
22:55:12 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:57:15 -!- centrinia has joined.
22:57:38 <fizzie> "In the interest of generality, the algorithms will use variable names in place of the < and > instructions. Temporary cells are denoted "temp". When using an algorithm in a program, replace the variable names with the correct number of < or > instructions to position the pointer at the desired memory cell."
22:58:43 <Moon_> more like "To stop people from ripping our stuff, we will make it harder to use"
23:00:31 <Moon_> `moonlang rThis is not ;RqRuRiRtReR rbrainfuck;
23:00:49 <HackEgo> This is not quite brainfuck
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23:04:37 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk).
23:04:41 <centrinia> https://gist.github.com/Centrinia/e5ed37dd951e1a33fb37bcb33ae9cfc9
23:05:00 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:13:39 -!- earenndil has changed nick to Elronnd.
23:14:00 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
23:15:33 <Moon_> `mkx Eternity// while :; do echo 'Loading'; sleep 1; done
23:15:54 <Moon_> `./eternity Run world of warcraft copy
23:15:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/eternity: No such file or directory
23:16:11 <Moon_> `./Eternity Run world of warcraft copy
23:16:41 <HackEgo> Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading
23:17:16 <Moon_> its a shame Eternity (https://esolangs.org/wiki/Eternity) takes forever to load
23:17:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eternity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46864&oldid=45788 * Moon * (+52)
23:28:08 <Moon_> fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/yn9LVhJv
23:28:14 <Moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/yn9LVhJv
23:28:18 <HackEgo> 2016-04-28 22:28:15 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/yn9LVhJv [1834] -> "yn9LVhJv" [1]
23:28:34 <Moon_> `` gcc -x c yn9LVhJv -o bin/Something
23:29:20 <Moon_> `Something imaprettybird
23:30:05 <Moon_> `Something commonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprint
23:30:07 -!- Kaynato has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
23:30:29 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:31:25 <Moon_> `` Echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'commonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillp'
23:31:26 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: Echo: command not found \ /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: 296 Exit 127 Echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd \ 297 Segmentation fault | Something 'commonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillp'
23:31:36 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'commonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillp'
23:31:47 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'commonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillp'
23:31:51 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'commonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillprintcommonillp'
23:32:15 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'commonillprint'
23:32:18 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'commonillprint'
23:32:21 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'commonillprint'
23:32:23 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'commonillprint'
23:32:37 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd'
23:32:39 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: 296 Done echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd \ 297 Segmentation fault | Something 'dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd'
23:32:52 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd'
23:34:08 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd'
23:34:45 <Moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/6TL7V2mM
23:34:47 <HackEgo> 2016-04-28 22:34:46 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/6TL7V2mM [1144] -> "6TL7V2mM" [1]
23:35:22 <Moon_> `` gcc -x c 6TL7V2mM -o bin/Something
23:35:36 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd'
23:35:43 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd'
23:35:45 <Moon_> `` echo ddddddddddddddddddddddddddd | Something 'dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd'
23:35:56 <Moon_> `` echo abdskxvndvckuindglcjvgkjkvdh | Something 'dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd'
23:35:59 <Moon_> `` echo abdskxvndvckuindglcjvgkjkvdh | Something 'dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd'
23:36:10 <Moon_> `` echo hi | Something 'dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd'
23:36:23 <Moon_> `` echo hi | Something 'ddddddddddddddddzdfscazdfezddfadz'
23:36:32 <Moon_> `` echo hi | Something 'fbvgfhbvbgnhbhnjgfybfzdfscazdfezddfadz'
23:36:42 <Moon_> its suppost to be random
23:37:16 <Moon_> i forgot to init the gen, didn't i?
23:38:52 <Moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/UZ3ESUfL
23:38:54 <HackEgo> 2016-04-28 22:38:53 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/UZ3ESUfL [1194] -> "UZ3ESUfL" [1]
23:39:13 <Moon_> `` gcc -x c UZ3ESUfL -o bin/Something
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23:39:33 <Moon_> `something degvsgszf
23:39:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: something: not found
23:39:45 <Moon_> `Something degvsgszf
23:39:48 <Moon_> `Something degvsgszf
23:39:50 <Moon_> `Something degvsgszf
23:39:55 <Moon_> `Something degvsgszffghnfghngjutxyhj
23:40:16 <Moon_> `Something degvsgszffghnfghngjutxyhjjfghvbnfdkjfngthlugjfe
23:40:37 <Moon_> `` echo Hiavhfghfbdo Something degvsgszffghnfghngjutxyhjjfghvbnfdkjfngthlugjfe
23:40:38 <HackEgo> Hiavhfghfbdo Something degvsgszffghnfghngjutxyhjjfghvbnfdkjfngthlugjfe
23:40:45 <Moon_> `` echo Hiavhfghfbdo | Something 'degvsgszffghnfghngjutxyhjjfghvbnfdkjfngthlugjfe'
23:42:06 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:42:07 <Moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/waDs9gmT
23:42:09 <HackEgo> 2016-04-28 22:42:07 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/waDs9gmT [1193] -> "waDs9gmT" [1]
23:42:26 <Moon_> `` gcc -x c waDs9gmT -o bin/Something
23:42:41 <Moon_> `` echo Hiavhfghfbdo | Something 'degvsgszffghnfghngjutxyhjjfghvbnfdkjfngthlugjfe'
23:42:44 <Moon_> `` echo Hiavhfghfbdo | Something 'degvsgszffghnfghngjutxyhjjfghvbnfdkjfngthlugjfe'
23:42:56 -!- Moon_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
23:44:34 <oerjan> `culprits bin/Something
23:45:11 -!- Moon_ has joined.
23:45:33 <Moon_> Does hackego have a time service?
23:45:39 <Moon_> `Something dvbgfvbghfdv bnhhtgfvcbhygtbhvndgfxvcbhgtgbvn mkhg dbgthghbf mf
23:45:56 <Moon_> `Something dvbgfvbghfdv bnhhtgfvcbhygtbhvndgfxvcbhgtgbvn mkhg dbgthghbf mfuhnvoytewgthcsieytfhgkudhcfbdcjv nfhdjxckvfhdjkvkchfdjcvgfhdcghbfdhbdbfdbhvfhbvhgfhbvgbfbdhbxhzhbjkcnsbyku
23:46:40 <HackEgo> Thu Apr 28 22:46:39 UTC 2016
23:46:49 <Moon_> Somethng uses the tme variable from C
23:48:21 <oerjan> Moon_: um that makes no sense
23:48:35 <Moon_> like it has the time on its own, idk
23:48:39 <Moon_> http://www.tutorialspoint.com/c_standard_library/c_function_rand.htm
23:49:30 <oerjan> Moon_: that calls the time function to initialize the variable
23:51:15 <Moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/wGAUV3ER
23:51:18 <HackEgo> 2016-04-28 22:51:16 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/wGAUV3ER [1199] -> "wGAUV3ER" [1]
23:51:37 <Moon_> can you compile that as bin/Something?
23:51:57 <oerjan> Moon_: hm i think the use of t in that link is nonsense, you could just as well pass in 0
23:52:14 <oerjan> `` gcc -x c -o bin/Something wGAUV3ER
23:52:42 <Moon_> `something fbgfxgvfgfvhdvbhgd
23:52:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: something: not found
23:52:51 <Moon_> `Something fbgfxgvfgfvhdvbhgd
23:53:34 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'fbgfxgvfgfvhdvbhgd'
23:53:40 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'fbgfxgvfgfvhdvbhgd'
23:53:43 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'fbgfxgvfgfvhdvbhgd'
23:53:50 <Moon_> Something works right
23:54:03 <Moon_> 'Anything is a Something program'
23:54:32 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'Anything is a Something program'
23:55:37 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'Anything is a Something program'
23:55:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dos2unix: not found
23:56:29 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'Anything is a Something program'
23:56:35 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'Anything is a Something program'\
23:56:40 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'Anything is a Something program'
23:56:43 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'Anything is a Something program'
23:56:45 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'Anything is a Something program'
23:57:03 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'Including itself!'
23:57:06 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'Including itself!'
23:57:16 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'ghytghfbjg6vytffetkvjhbsudfbncuwareghjkcuajzfjtdkgvhbfjhrgatbickny'
23:57:20 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'ghytghfbjg6vytffetkvjhbsudfbncuwareghjkcuajzfjtdkgvhbfjhrgatbickny'
23:57:44 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'ghytghfbjg6vytffetkvjhbsudfbncuwareghjkcuajzfjtdkgvhbfjhrgatbickny'
23:59:22 <Moon_> `` echo fvbgfgbhvz | Something 'CAN I HAZ somethinginterp? K THX BYE'
00:01:23 <oerjan> Moon_: i think that's enough spamming.
00:04:06 <Moon_> earlier i came up with the idea of a language with no form of memory besides the memory that stores the program'
00:04:10 <Moon_> has that been done?
00:04:26 <oerjan> Moon_: i don't get pinged on oer either. doesn't client have tab completion?
00:04:54 <oerjan> (not that i really get pinged anyway, since i have sound off in irssi)
00:08:57 <oerjan> some esoteric assembly languages such as SUBLEQ, many languages that simply execute by modifying the program itself (e.g. ///, Fueue)
00:13:43 <oerjan> i'm not sure Haskell fits very well.
00:14:03 <hppavilion[2]> Moon_: We were trying to inform you that that's been done before
00:14:20 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Are there any esolangs that do high-level self-modification?
00:14:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: Feather would if it existed.
00:15:12 <oerjan> and there are other cheese-named languages that i vaguely think do the same but i haven't learned them.
00:15:42 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Those modify the language, not the program
00:15:57 <oerjan> oh that's what i thought you meant by high-level
00:16:18 <oerjan> what is high-level, then?
00:16:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i don't know django.
00:17:30 <oerjan> please observe that i am _extremely_ clueless about enterprise programming solutions.
00:17:43 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: A CAS library is the (very-)high-level version of math.h (or whatever it's called)
00:18:17 <oerjan> i've never actually ... actually come to think of it someone _did_ pay me to make a program in Pascal once.
00:18:20 <fizzie> I wouldn't really call Django a "networking library".
00:18:51 <fizzie> The connotations of "networking library" and "web framework" are entirely different.
00:18:55 <oerjan> it was very simple and for academic research, anyway.
00:19:19 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: CAS as in, one where operations create objects that have /properties/ applied to them and are /simplified/ automatically before being processed into usable values, rather than just evaluating to floating point immediately
00:19:32 <Moon_> `` echo gjhnxvbhjkxjfjcgnkf | Something 'You dont get the point, hppa'
00:19:43 <hppavilion[2]> So, for example, sqrt(x)**2 is /actually/ equal to x
00:19:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: networking library:web framework::physics:chemistry hth
00:20:26 <Moon_> hp, try the `Something command
00:20:29 <Moon_> just give it a input
00:20:40 <Phantom_Hoover> if you wanted a high-level self-modifying language the most straightforward way would be to make the program AST a modifiable object
00:20:45 <FreeFull> hppavilion[2]: Only over the complex numbers
00:21:20 <FreeFull> I suppose if you restrict yourself to non-negative reals that works too
00:21:24 <Moon_> `moonlang +jR+Rj++++[-p++++P]pJ[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
00:21:38 <Moon_> Fizzie, its broken
00:22:11 <Moon_> `Something like this
00:22:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i think there are very few if any esolangs that high level, self-modifying or not.
00:22:30 <fizzie> `moonlang +jrR+Rj++++[-p++++P]pJ[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
00:22:31 <HackEgo> +jR+Rj++++[-p++++P]pJ[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
00:22:41 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Yes, but a CAS is very high level. I'm going for something just a little high level
00:22:42 <Phantom_Hoover> the number of esolangs that go beyond single-character commands with no syntax is depressingly small
00:23:00 <hppavilion[2]> Phantom_Hoover: I am formulating an esoASM based on pie charts
00:23:13 <fizzie> Moon_: You removed the "r".
00:23:32 <fizzie> Yes, apparently I did.
00:23:40 <Moon_> i copyed that from the wiki
00:23:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: ? = social media?
00:24:19 <Moon_> just gotta learn to program people (heh)
00:24:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CIOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46865&oldid=46863 * Fizzie * (+1) /* Examples */ Let's fix that.
00:24:40 <hppavilion[2]> Moon_: I do thing a category-theoretical social network for mathematicians would be fun xD
00:25:07 <hppavilion[2]> (page is object, things-that-can-occur-in-your-feed are arrows)
00:25:18 <Moon_> Fizzie, the quine misses the r
00:25:42 <Moon_> +j<r should go here>R+Rj++++[-p++++P]pJ[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;Jv
00:26:04 <fizzie> Oh, whoops. That's probably why I missed it.
00:26:11 <fizzie> Probably copied the output in.
00:26:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46866&oldid=45241 * 104.163.150.67 * (+363) /* What about editor of Befunge programs? */ bef.vim
00:26:21 <fizzie> Well, it's an easy fix.
00:26:37 <fizzie> `moonlang +jrR+Rj+Rr++++[-p++++P]pJ[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
00:27:23 <fizzie> Needs a little bit of adjustment of constants.
00:28:04 <Phantom_Hoover> man i just realised esolangs are subject to the inverse wadler's law
00:28:20 <Phantom_Hoover> nobody ever cares about lexical syntax, let alone comments
00:28:43 <Moon_> i might try a higher level eso
00:30:11 <fizzie> `moonlang +jrR+RjRr+++++[-p++++P]p_J----[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
00:30:12 <HackEgo> +jrR+RjRr+++++[-p++++P]p_J----[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
00:30:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CIOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46867&oldid=46865 * Fizzie * (+8) /* Examples */ Let's *actually* fix that.
00:31:21 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> man i just realised esolangs are subject to the inverse wadler's law <Phantom_Hoover> nobody ever cares about lexical syntax, let alone comments
00:31:25 <HackEgo> 1278) <Phantom_Hoover> man i just realised esolangs are subject to the inverse wadler's law <Phantom_Hoover> nobody ever cares about lexical syntax, let alone comments
00:31:52 <Moon_> who thinks i should make a higher level esolang
00:32:42 <Moon_> Well i need to make the standard first
00:33:20 <Phantom_Hoover> ?? just write an implementation and then declare it to be the reference
00:33:20 <lambdabot> just write an implementation and then declare it to be the reference
00:33:31 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's a shame i've never finished Reaper, i actually had (evil) ideas about syntax for it
00:34:08 <oerjan> but somehow i never feel like actually doing it.
00:34:18 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah there's crazy shit you could do with syntax that nobody's ever explored
00:34:51 <oerjan> oh, i had an evil idea for comments too.
00:35:18 <oerjan> i think that may have been put on the wiki.
00:35:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean who says tokens have to be sequential characters, or that the AST has to be a tree??
00:37:11 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well some of the two-dimensional languages stretch that, at least.
00:37:46 <Phantom_Hoover> befunge just doesn't have syntax, in the same way that machine code doesn't have syntax
00:39:08 <Phantom_Hoover> well it's tokenisation is pretty tame but it does allow cycles in a fundamental way so i guess that counts
00:43:26 <Moon_> well im going to try something minimal first.. or i might not make a higher level eso..
00:43:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bottlesofbeer: not found
00:43:57 <HackEgo> ^ \ :-( \ !\.´ \ 6TL7V2mM \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src
00:44:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bb99: not found
00:44:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: b99: not found
00:44:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bb99: not found
00:44:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 99bb: not found
00:44:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/99: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/99: cannot execute: Permission denied
00:44:33 <HackEgo> 99 bottles of beer in the wall, \ 99 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it round, \ 98 }bottles of beer in the wall \ \ 98 bottles of beer in the wall, \ 98 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it round, \ 97 }bottles of beer in the wall \ \ 97 bottles of beer in the wall, \ 97 bottles of beer. \ Take one down, pass it round, \ 96 }bottl
00:45:00 <Moon_> ./Eternity Annoy oerjan
00:45:11 <oerjan> new rule: you don't get to mistype a command more than once.
00:45:37 <oerjan> i shall surely now be hit by this rule next time i use HackEgo
00:45:39 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ bookofeso \
00:46:15 <HackEgo> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 4) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he
00:46:26 <HackEgo> b=bottle a=({no+more+$b\s,1+$b,{2..99}+$b\s}+of+beer) w=on+the+wall \ x=(Take+one+down,+pass+it+around Go+to+the+store+and+buy+some+more) \ for i in {99..0};{ \ echo "${a[i]^} $w, ${a[i]}. \ ${x[!i]}, ${a[i-1]} $w." \ }|tr + \
00:46:29 <HackEgo> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 4) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he
00:46:50 <FireFly> that was izabera's, wasn't it
00:47:12 <HackEgo> âELF............>......@.....@.......è..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....À.......À............................@......@............................................@.......@.....l......l........ ............p......p`.....p`.....8......@........ .................`.....`.....à.......à................
00:47:25 <FireFly> Well, it was. Before you compiled it
00:47:35 <oerjan> Moon_: allquotes is just a helping program that the other quote programs use, it doesn't take arguments.
00:47:36 -!- fowl has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:47:46 <oerjan> all it does is add line numbers, really
00:48:11 <HackEgo> 731) <elliott_> (help why are german) <monqy> i play the german version of crawl <elliott_> i \ 982) <shachaf> Bike: I think you're ready to learn about lens. <Bike> oh god <Bike> fiora help somebody help <Bike> anybody \ 1044) <shachaf> kmc: you gotta tell me if you're an op \ 513) <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Sort of a monadic human centipede. \
00:48:32 <HackEgo> 732) <fungot> itidus21: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, h
00:48:33 <HackEgo> 977) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
00:48:35 <HackEgo> 894) <ais523> in Smalltalk, as in Feather, in order to do I/O, you must first create the universe <Sgeo> ais523, it seems quite capable of I/O... GUI is a form of I/O <ais523> Sgeo: yeah exactly <ais523> where does the GUI come from? <ais523> it's written in Smalltalk, clearly <ais523> and how does the GUI do its I/O? <ais523> if you think ab
00:48:36 <HackEgo> 785) <madbr> I like the tactile response of actually hitting real balls :D
00:48:37 <HackEgo> 875) <hagb4rd> what is this set? sounds like shakespear <fizzie> Yes, that's what people often say about Chrono Trigger.
00:48:45 <FireFly> Haven't done one of those in some time
00:48:49 <oerjan> <FireFly> that was izabera's, wasn't it <-- yep
00:50:19 <HackEgo> 1156) <Taneb> Last night I had a dream that someone wrote such bad Haskell code he accidentally summoned the Great Old Ones and I had to fix the Haskell code and save the day
00:50:31 <HackEgo> 149) [spam] Any flavored hell can pee on the pig pen, but it takes a real football team to throw a slyly optimal formless void at a hole puncher.
00:50:40 <HackEgo> 621) <fizzie> Do you want me to live dangerously and just stick it in the bot without testing it? <elliott> fizzie: Yes. <elliott> There is pretty much no way it won't be amazing.
00:51:02 <HackEgo> 1038) <Bike> I'm glad I quit programming to take up listening to numbers stations
00:51:17 <HackEgo> 214) <Vorpal> !bfjoust test (-)*10000 <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_test: 12.9 <Vorpal> yay
00:51:32 <HackEgo> 681) <fizzie> [...] and then you just shuffle the integral signs around a bit and hope no mathematicians notice.
00:51:44 <HackEgo> 424) [2008] <nooga> i'm testing Haiku <nooga> and it appears that it is a major shit <oerjan> 5+7+5, not 5+11, nooga
00:51:46 <Moon_> !bfjoust test (-)*10000
00:52:13 <Moon_> i guess egobot doesnt exist or is offline
00:53:15 <oerjan> i'm afraid only shachaf followed the protocol properly and none of his quotes are bad enough to delete hth
00:53:29 <HackEgo> 238) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice.
00:53:33 <HackEgo> 1085) <Bike> are you saying the rockies and some mountains in norway are the same range
00:53:37 <HackEgo> 655) <zzo38> Even the Spanish Inquisition is in this game. <ais523> zzo38: was it unexpected? <zzo38> Kind of...
00:53:45 <HackEgo> 160) Thanks to nooga for constructive criticism, his ideas and being a constant annoyance. --http://theendisnear.no-ip.info/
00:53:50 <HackEgo> 1275) <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <coppro> `quote <int-e> ....lovely spam, oh wonderful spam...
00:54:05 <HackEgo> 342) <oklofok> "<pikhq> elliott: Americans also have 20 mile one-way commutes." <<< one-way commutes? you have like disposable jobs?
00:54:15 <HackEgo> 726) * elliott is back not for killing purposes but here to kill people.
00:54:27 <HackEgo> 281) <oklopol> i understand that people had to use twitter and facebook before irc was invented, but now they just feel like ancient history
00:55:32 <oerjan> Moon_: you might look at the wisdom.pdf in the topic hth
00:56:40 <oerjan> <FireFly> I don't see EgoBot around <-- EgoBot, glogbot and Gregor are AWOL. hth, which it doesn't.
00:58:36 <Moon_> `moonlang rChallange, anyone?;
01:00:01 * oerjan slowly walks around the channel with a "Don't ask to ask" poster
01:01:47 -!- zemhill has joined.
01:01:53 <Moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/VNUWNNx4
01:01:54 <fizzie> I don't know how that was gone as well.
01:01:55 <HackEgo> 2016-04-29 00:01:54 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/VNUWNNx4 [103] -> "VNUWNNx4" [1]
01:02:11 <oerjan> fizzie: someone's after our bots
01:02:24 <Moon_> ``` gcc -x c -o bin/pingbot VNUWMNx4
01:02:41 <HackEgo> gcc: error: VNUWMNx4: No such file or directory \ gcc: warning: '-x c' after last input file has no effect \ gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated.
01:02:46 <Moon_> `` gcc -x c -o bin/pingbot VNUWMNx4
01:02:56 <HackEgo> gcc: error: VNUWMNx4: No such file or directory \ gcc: warning: ‘-x c’ after last input file has no effect \ gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated.
01:03:11 <fizzie> M and N are different letters, and that's the most useless use of C.
01:03:24 <fizzie> There's already a command for that.
01:03:29 * oerjan swats Moon_ for breaking aforementioned rule -----###
01:03:41 <shachaf> where's oklopol, anyway? twh
01:04:05 <shachaf> oerjan: wasn't the rule about mistyping
01:04:08 <oerjan> shachaf: in chile, unless he's returned to finland
01:04:33 <oerjan> shachaf: if substituting M for N isn't mistyping, then what is?
01:04:56 <shachaf> who's to say whether a command is correct, though
01:05:03 <oerjan> shachaf: oklopol sometimes stealthily passes by the channel. i talked to him a few weeks ago.
01:05:10 <shachaf> perhaps the desired behavior was produced the second time
01:05:11 <Moon_> `Something mhmwho?
01:05:27 <Moon_> `` echo fgdffggvfge | Something mhmwho?
01:05:41 <oerjan> shachaf: in that case, who's to say he didn't want to be swatted
01:05:52 <Moon_> `` echo fgdffggvfge | Something mhmwho j7ndzbcxhvgfcdkbyfxu?
01:05:52 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: what happened to chile
01:05:54 <oerjan> shachaf: by stealthily, i mean he uses random nicks.
01:06:11 <oerjan> i don't think he goes by oklopol any longer.
01:06:28 <Moon_> `` echo fgdffggvfge | Something mhmwhoj7ndzbcxhvgfcdkbyfxu?
01:06:40 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, well it's spring now so it's not so chile any more
01:06:52 <oerjan> shachaf: last i talked to him he was just at the end of his stay in chile.
01:07:00 <oerjan> wait, was that just a pun
01:07:09 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
01:07:38 <Moon_> `` gcc -x c -o bin/Something wGAUV3ER compiles something
01:07:45 <Moon_> thats a pastebin name
01:07:49 <Moon_> so you can see what something is
01:08:45 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `src': File exists
01:09:21 <fizzie> What exactly is wrong with the existing 'src'?
01:09:34 <Moon_> im really testing here
01:09:37 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `usersrc': Is a directory
01:09:49 <HackEgo> ^ \ :-( \ !\.´ \ 6TL7V2mM \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src
01:09:52 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ grph.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ u8tbl.c \ ul.emm
01:11:01 <Moon_> how do i rename a file?
01:11:38 <HackEgo> mv: missing file operand \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
01:11:49 <Moon_> `` mv -r wGAUV3ER Something.c
01:11:51 <HackEgo> mv: invalid option -- 'r' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
01:11:55 <Moon_> `` mv wGAUV3ER Something.c
01:12:11 <Moon_> now how do i move a file?
01:12:13 <HackEgo> ^ \ :-( \ !\.´ \ 6TL7V2mM \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ Some
01:12:47 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:13:01 <HackEgo> ^ \ :-( \ !\.´ \ 6TL7V2mM \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ BGTV9E93 \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src
01:13:02 <oerjan> Moon_: don't worry about that error
01:13:24 <fizzie> It's never going to fit in `ls, there's not enough space.
01:13:35 <oerjan> however, `revert doesn't work so well for moving or creation
01:13:47 <fizzie> You just renamed it from way after 'src' to 'Something.c', the four first characters of which just barely made it to the output.
01:13:52 <HackEgo> waDs9gmT \ wGAUV3ER \ wisdom.pdf \ \ wisdom: \ ` \ `? \ `? `? \ ^ \ == \ \ _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌ
ÍÍ̦̻ͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌ
ͨÌÌ´Í \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ * \ \ \ ã \ ⨠\ ê® \ ⥠\ â \ ð \ ð \ ÌÌÍÌÌÌͦÌÍͪÍ̼̾ͦͨÍ
ÍÍÌ®Í̸̳Ì̤ÌÌ¯ÌªÌ¸ÌªÌ±Ì£Ì ÌºÌ¹ÍÌ©ÌÍÍÍÍÌÍ̪̮ÌÌÌ£ÍÌªÍ Í¢Í¢Ò̴̢_Ì¿Ì
01:14:13 <Moon_> `` mv wGAUV3ER Something.c
01:14:32 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wG*: No such file or directory
01:14:55 <fizzie> I suggest using http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ in place of `ls.
01:15:04 <fizzie> Especially for browsing around.
01:15:07 <oerjan> alas, `revert has some bugs which we cannot get fixed because the bot owner is never here.
01:15:22 <fizzie> (Or if you insist on doing it via IRC, at least do it off-channel.)
01:16:20 <Moon_> Well you all can check what Something actually does that way, too
01:17:49 <Moon_> i can run WoW on hackego (=
01:18:04 <Moon_> `Eternity Run WoW exact copy
01:18:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Eternity: not found
01:18:39 <Moon_> `./Eternity Run WoW exact copy
01:18:39 <oerjan> Moon_: ...good luck with that.
01:19:10 <HackEgo> Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading \ Loading
01:19:28 <Moon_> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Eternity
01:20:44 <fizzie> `` rm 'bin/tomfoolery = test' 'bin/tomfoolery TEST' # I don't think I want to know what tomfoolery made these files
01:21:00 <HackEgo> while :; do echo 'Loading'; sleep 1; done
01:21:58 <Moon_> also, leme add a thing
01:22:09 <Moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/cdxuhHRs
01:22:11 <HackEgo> 2016-04-29 00:22:10 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/cdxuhHRs [2983] -> "cdxuhHRs" [1]
01:22:42 <Moon_> Oer, can you compile that as 'AnotherThing'?
01:23:06 <fizzie> While you're at it, make it accept input from the command line again, right?
01:23:17 <Moon_> try a echo, friend
01:23:31 <Moon_> well, anyways, leme try it
01:24:12 <Moon_> `` gcc -x c -o bin/piglatin cdxuhHRs
01:24:50 <HackEgo> cdxuhHRs: In function ‘main’: \ cdxuhHRs:16:13: warning: unknown escape sequence: '\040' [enabled by default]
01:24:59 <oerjan> . o O ( who is this Oer person )
01:25:32 <Moon_> `` echo translate me END | piglatin
01:25:33 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: 296 Done echo translate me END \ 297 Segmentation fault | piglatin
01:27:28 <fizzie> `` echo -e 'translate me\nEND' | piglatin # but come on!
01:27:30 <HackEgo> \ Pig Latin Translator in C \ \ Type 'END' when finished \ \ ranslateta ema \ \ aveHa aa icena ayda (Have a nice day)
01:28:30 <Moon_> im making it friendlier now
01:30:33 <oerjan> that orthography seems unusual
01:30:51 <fizzie> `` rm 6TL7V2mM BGTV9E93 UZ3ESUfL cdxuhHRs waDs9gmT yn9LVhJv # littering is a crime
01:31:48 <Moon_> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/ReUariBw
01:31:50 <HackEgo> 2016-04-29 00:31:49 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/ReUariBw [1868] -> "ReUariBw" [1]
01:32:08 <Moon_> `` gcc -x c -o bin/piglatin ReUariBw
01:32:16 <HackEgo> ReUariBw:19:6: warning: conflicting types for ‘initialize’ [enabled by default] \ ReUariBw:4:6: note: previous implicit declaration of ‘initialize’ was here \ ReUariBw:30:6: warning: conflicting types for ‘convert’ [enabled by default] \ ReUariBw:8:9: note: previous implicit declaration of ‘convert’ was here \ ReUariBw:58:6: warning
01:33:14 <fizzie> `` echo Doing any sort of string mangling in C is bizarre anyway | sed -e 's/\([^ ]\)\([^ ]*\)/\2\1a/g'
01:33:15 <HackEgo> oingDa nyaa ortsa foa tringsa anglingma nia Ca sia izarreba nywayaa
01:33:48 <fizzie> The source is, like, right there.
01:34:03 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:37:02 -!- boily has joined.
01:37:19 <Moon_> CIOL has a wiki page with examples now
01:37:32 <Moon_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/CIOL
01:37:37 <Moon_> fizzie made the first two quines
01:37:49 <boily> hellørjan, hppavellon[2], hellochaf, QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAA, Tanelle!
01:38:27 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:38:37 <zzo38> I don't have a key
01:38:46 <Moon_> `moonlang +jrR+RjRr+++++[-p++++P]p_J----[-P+++p]P-oRJ*fizz;J
01:38:47 <HackEgo> +jrR+RjRr+++++[-p++++P]p_J----[-P+++p]P-oRJ*fizz;J
01:40:32 <Moon_> `moonlang +jr++++[-p++++++++p+++++++++++++++++++++PP]p+++op+o++++++++oP[-P++p]P---------J------------------o+++++++++++++++o* this is a rather suboptimal quine here;J
01:40:32 <HackEgo> +jr++++[-p++++++++p+++++++++++++++++++++PP]p+++op+o++++++++oP[-P++p]P---------J------------------o+++++++++++++++o* this is a rather suboptimal quine here;J
01:42:09 -!- FreeFull has joined.
01:42:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CIOL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46868&oldid=46867 * Fizzie * (+155) Categories.
01:43:12 <Moon_> idk if CIOL is turing complete..
01:43:24 <fizzie> There's an obvious translation from Brainfuck to CIOL.
01:43:39 <fizzie> Ignoring the usual things like the fixed maximum tape length.
01:43:49 <Moon_> but note the diff in [
01:44:01 <boily> perfect TCness is usually a little bit difficult to obtain hth
01:44:03 <fizzie> Yes, yes, but there's an obvious workaround for that with j.
01:45:15 -!- Kaynato has joined.
01:45:38 <shachaf> zzo38: Why would we expect you to have a key?
01:45:55 <Kaynato> I ran into some problems yesterday with setting up a Daoyu interpreter on HackEgo
01:46:02 <HackEgo> ^ \ :-( \ !\.´ \ 71ab5gx8 \ 99 \ 99bb \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ cdescs \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ daoyu.c \ dog \ emoticons \ equations \ esobible \ etc \ Eternity \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hia \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls_dev \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quine \ quines \ quotes \ ReUariBw \ share \ Something.c \ s
01:46:07 <fizzie> Just map "+" and "-" as-is, "." to i and "," to o, ">" to pp and "<" to PP (to leave a bit of wiggle room), and transform "[xxx]" into p++...++j[<xxx>pP] where <xxx> is the transformed xxx, and there's a suitable number of +'s to hit the P next to the ].
01:46:19 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ axo \ befunge \ bfjoust \ bf_txtgen \ boof \ build.sh \ cfunge \ c-intercal \ clc-intercal \ dimensifuck \ egobch \ egobf \ fukyorbrane \ gcccomp \ gforth_quit \ ghc \ glass \ glypho \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ Makefile \ malbolge \ pbrain \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda
01:46:48 <fizzie> Kaynato: Generally you don't want to go all interps/ on it -- that's part of the migration of EgoBot into HackEgo. Just get a binary in bin.
01:47:02 <Kaynato> Ah, but I did - and it doesn't seem to work
01:47:15 <Kaynato> `dao "))))))))/:((((((S...............%(>#>[>[>;/.==>;=/>[>%/!.:......"
01:47:23 <Kaynato> And that's certainly not supposed to happen.
01:47:39 <fizzie> I had a look, but the source was just the tiniest bit obfuscated.
01:47:39 <Kaynato> I'm going to try reuploading...
01:47:57 <Moon_> shall we move CILO to interps? or no
01:49:59 <Moon_> `hello-world-in-any-language
01:50:08 <Moon_> `hello-world-in-any-language bf
01:50:09 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
01:50:14 <Moon_> `hello-world-in-any-language brainfuck
01:50:48 <Moon_> `hello-world-in-any-language CIOL
01:50:49 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
01:51:03 <Moon_> `hello-world-in-any-language malboge
01:51:04 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
01:51:10 <Moon_> `hello-world-in-any-language malbolge
01:51:10 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
01:51:46 <Moon_> if [ -z $(tr [A-Z] [a-z] <<< "$1") ]; then echo "Hello, world!"; else if [ -f hw/$(tr [A-Z] [a-z] <<< "$1") ]; then cat hw/$(tr [A-Z] [a-z] <<< "$1"); else echo "Your language does not exist"; fi; fi
01:51:46 <oerjan> <fizzie> Yes, yes, but there's an obvious workaround for that with j. <-- i'm sure we've discussed workarounds for the simple [ variant before.
01:51:56 <fizzie> 8 languages exist, according to that thing.
01:52:12 <fizzie> oerjan: I'm sure we did, but those weren't all that obvious.
01:53:16 <oerjan> <fizzie> I had a look, but the source was just the tiniest bit obfuscated. <-- SORRY MY FAULT
01:53:17 <fizzie> There was also something like a thing where there was an implicit all-matching super-[ at the beginning, I think.
01:53:46 <fizzie> Or something along those lines.
01:54:18 <fizzie> Maybe I'm mixing it with that other thing where < always moved to the left edge of the tape.
01:54:28 <oerjan> <Moon_> shall we move CILO to interps? or no <-- interps is very weird, and uses a different calling convention. so probably not.
01:55:08 <Moon_> well lets rename it
01:55:33 <Moon_> ``mv bin/moonlang bin/CIOLinterp
01:55:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `mv: not found
01:55:39 <Moon_> `` mv bin/moonlang bin/CIOLinterp
01:55:42 <fizzie> I'd suggest just "ciol".
01:55:52 <Moon_> `` mv bin/CIOL bin/ciol
01:55:53 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `bin/CIOL': No such file or directory
01:56:00 <Moon_> `` mv bin/CIOLinterp bin/ciol
01:56:04 <fizzie> (See, you forgot the "interp" already.)
01:56:13 <fizzie> Tangentially related: I think there was at least one Scheme system where a ] was capable of matching an arbitrary number of currently open (s.
01:57:40 <Moon_> also, im challanging you all to write a bottles of beer program, the person who gets the shortest possible wins
01:58:00 <boily> firefox javascript debug question: I updated firefox, and once again pentadactyl breaks. I patched the install.rdf, recompiled, reinstalled, and it somewhat works.
01:58:16 <boily> now, it sometimes refuses to load new pages, with:
01:58:26 <boily> resource://dactyl/util.jsm: 1583: TypeError: can't assign to properties of (new String(" ")): not an object
01:58:54 <boily> thing is, the line number in the source file isn't right. how can I debug a firefox extension from within firefox?
02:00:40 <Kaynato> Ok, shorter, more effective Interpreter's done
02:01:37 <Kaynato> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/t7cNVub5
02:01:39 <HackEgo> 2016-04-29 01:01:37 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/t7cNVub5 [2858] -> "t7cNVub5" [1]
02:01:52 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `t7cNVub5 daoyu.c' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
02:02:03 <HackEgo> Usage: mv [OPTION]... [-T] SOURCE DEST \ or: mv [OPTION]... SOURCE... DIRECTORY \ or: mv [OPTION]... -t DIRECTORY SOURCE... \ Rename SOURCE to DEST, or move SOURCE(s) to DIRECTORY. \ \ Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too. \ --backup[=CONTROL] make a backup of each existing destination file \
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02:02:40 <Kaynato> `run gcc daoyu.c -o dao -ansi -O3
02:02:50 <HackEgo> daoyu.c: In function ‘n’: \ daoyu.c:37:101: warning: assignment makes integer from pointer without a cast [enabled by default] \ daoyu.c: In function ‘X’: \ daoyu.c:42:3: warning: pointer/integer type mismatch in conditional expression [enabled by default] \ daoyu.c:41:102: warning: return makes integer from pointer without a cast [enabled
02:03:14 <Kaynato> Ok, those are the expected warnings.
02:03:41 <Kaynato> `dao "))))))))/:((((((S...............%(>#>[>[>;/.==>;=/>[>%/!.:......"
02:03:57 <Kaynato> Well! That's not supposed to happen.
02:04:18 <fizzie> Is the source supposed to have those "s in it?
02:04:35 <Kaynato> The input? Just trying to prevent escape characters
02:04:41 <fizzie> There's no such thing, for `foo.
02:04:51 <Kaynato> `dao ))))))))/:((((((S...............%(>#>[>[>;/.==>;=/>[>%/!.:......
02:04:59 <Kaynato> That's not supposed to happen.
02:05:22 <Kaynato> Time to not bother with minification entirely and just upload the unobfuscated source.
02:06:00 <fizzie> (That's also why "`mv foo bar" doesn't work: "foo bar" ends up being passed as a single argument.)
02:06:56 <fizzie> A friend of mine wrote this ~30-40-line Scheme ASCII-Mandelbrot plotter, and it was all in a diagonally increasing indentation like this \ and then at the end there was a huge ASCII-art ) that was made from like 6*3 )s. But I can only find the poorest-quality photo of a printout of it, not the source. :/
02:07:07 <fizzie> https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZASk1vcWR0cDRmVUE high fidelity
02:07:22 <fizzie> I liked the big ), anyway.
02:09:20 <oerjan> that does look hard to OCR
02:09:33 <Kaynato> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/Mcd6MMB5
02:09:35 <HackEgo> 2016-04-29 01:09:34 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/Mcd6MMB5 [16114] -> "Mcd6MMB5" [1]
02:10:05 <Kaynato> `run gcc daoyu.c -o dao -ansi -g
02:10:14 <HackEgo> daoyu.c: In function ‘dealc’: \ daoyu.c:437:10: warning: ignoring return value of ‘realloc’, declared with attribute warn_unused_result [-Wunused-result] \ daoyu.c:439:10: warning: ignoring return value of ‘realloc’, declared with attribute warn_unused_result [-Wunused-result]
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02:10:57 <HackEgo> bash: gdb: command not found
02:11:09 <Kaynato> `dao ))))))))/:((((((S...............%(>#>[>[>;/.==>;=/>[>%/!.:......
02:11:27 <Kaynato> An entire mess. That's supposed to be "Hello world!"
02:12:41 <Kaynato> Any debugging I can do? It runs fine on my system.
02:13:15 <fizzie> valgrind says http://sprunge.us/WMML
02:13:56 <fizzie> That would be at the "command = ..." line.
02:15:18 <fizzie> Ah, it's a bitness program.
02:15:27 <fizzie> Works fine locally when compiled with -m32.
02:16:07 <fizzie> I'm guesstimating you've maybe used some literal 32s somewhere where BITS_IN_CELL would have been more appropriate, but I'm certainly not going to read all of that.
02:16:21 <fizzie> Unfortunately, I vaguely recall HackEgo wasn't quite equipped to compile 32-bit binaries.
02:16:38 <fizzie> `` gcc -o bin/dao daoyu.c -m32 # can always try, though
02:16:41 <HackEgo> In file included from /usr/include/stdio.h:28:0, \ from daoyu.c:22: \ /usr/include/features.h:323:26: fatal error: bits/predefs.h: No such file or directory \ compilation terminated.
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02:17:34 <fizzie> There's also a ridiculously low-tech fix.
02:17:49 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's/long/int/g' daoyu.c
02:17:56 <fizzie> `` gcc -o bin/dao daoyu.c
02:18:03 <HackEgo> daoyu.c: In function ‘dealc’: \ daoyu.c:437:10: warning: ignoring return value of ‘realloc’, declared with attribute warn_unused_result [-Wunused-result] \ daoyu.c:439:10: warning: ignoring return value of ‘realloc’, declared with attribute warn_unused_result [-Wunused-result]
02:18:06 <fizzie> `dao ))))))))/:((((((S...............%(>#>[>[>;/.==>;=/>[>%/!.:......
02:18:16 <Kaynato> Some more output than expected? What are the dots for?
02:19:02 <Kaynato> What of non-terminating programs?
02:19:45 <Kaynato> `dao $$$$$$$(([([([]!/[]!)]!/[[]!]!)]!/(([([]!/[])]!/[([]/[]!)]!)/([([]!/[])]!/[([]!/[])]!)))/((([[/[]!]!]!/[[[]!]]!)/([([]!/[])]!/[([]!/[]!)]!))/(([([]!/[])]!/[[[]!]]!)/([[[]]!]!/[[[]!]!]!))))%:
02:19:57 <Kaynato> It's not even a terminating program. Hm.
02:20:30 <fizzie> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
02:20:30 <fizzie> 0x080495c4 in read_by_bit_index (path=0x804b090, i=1078912, len=4) at tmp.c:554
02:20:33 <fizzie> 554 return (P_DATA[i / BITS_IN_CELL] >> (BITS_IN_CELL - (i % BITS_IN_CELL) - len)) & mask(len);
02:20:58 <Kaynato> The i passed in does not seem to be anything near correct.
02:21:22 <Kaynato> I really hope this isn't anything to do with stack corruption...
02:23:23 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/Cbea are valgrind's comments for that program.
02:24:37 <Kaynato> I think I know what happened
02:25:18 <Kaynato> Which line was that called from in SIFTS?
02:25:50 <fizzie> #0 0x080495c4 in read_by_bit_index (path=0x804b090, i=1078912, len=4) at tmp.c:554
02:25:53 <fizzie> #1 0x08048ca3 in sifts (path=0x804b090) at tmp.c:312
02:25:55 <fizzie> At the time of the segfault.
02:25:58 <fizzie> #2 0x08048e86 in execs (path=0xffffd1fc, caller=0x0) at tmp.c:353
02:26:42 <fizzie> That would have been the "while(!read_by_bit_index(path, write+read, 4))" line.
02:27:27 <Kaynato> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/FZQ7RLm4
02:27:29 <HackEgo> 2016-04-29 01:27:28 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/FZQ7RLm4 [15929] -> "FZQ7RLm4" [1]
02:27:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `mv: not found
02:28:05 <Kaynato> ``sed -i -e 's/long/int/g' daoyu.c
02:28:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `sed: not found
02:28:11 <fizzie> (It's "`` mv ..." if you want to use the shortcut.)
02:28:19 <fizzie> (And "`` sed" and so forth.)
02:28:25 <Kaynato> Oh, there's the space, yes. Thanks
02:28:28 <Kaynato> `` sed -i -e 's/long/int/g' daoyu.c
02:28:40 <fizzie> It's actually just a script called bin/` that it's running.
02:28:41 <Kaynato> `` gcc -o bin/dao daoyu.c -O3
02:29:12 <HackEgo> daoyu.c: In function ‘dealc’: \ daoyu.c:436:10: warning: ignoring return value of ‘realloc’, declared with attribute warn_unused_result [-Wunused-result] \ daoyu.c:438:10: warning: ignoring return value of ‘realloc’, declared with attribute warn_unused_result [-Wunused-result]
02:29:29 <Kaynato> `dao $$$$$$$(([([([]!/[]!)]!/[[]!]!)]!/(([([]!/[])]!/[([]/[]!)]!)/([([]!/[])]!/[([]!/[])]!)))/((([[/[]!]!]!/[[[]!]]!)/([([]!/[])]!/[([]!/[]!)]!))/(([([]!/[])]!/[[[]!]]!)/([[[]]!]!/[[[]!]!]!))))%:
02:33:33 <fizzie> Huh, I need to wake up in four-to-five hours or so. Nighty-night.
02:36:23 <oerjan> . o O ( little did fizzie know his brain secretly turned that into "forty-five" )
02:38:53 <coppro> anyone here been to farnham?
02:38:57 <coppro> it's like hexham but with a farn
02:41:23 <HackEgo> Testing.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
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02:59:41 <oerjan> everyone stay away from the roads
03:11:11 <Kaynato> `dao $$$>;:=*<$*<S((!))*<(!)*<((!))*<!*<((!))*<(!)*<@Only prints out one NUL and terminates when input is finished.
03:11:12 <HackEgo> Only prints out one NUL and terminates when input is finished..
03:11:28 <Kaynato> Hm. oerjan, do you think input should return EOF or NUL when there is no more input
03:12:25 <oerjan> what is EOF if not NUL
03:13:04 <zzo38> Possible "end of transmission", or "substitute" (in DOS)
03:13:15 <zzo38> In C the EOF will be negative
03:13:47 <oerjan> Kaynato: if you cannot distinguish EOF from all byte values, then you can just as well make it 0 for convenience.
03:14:33 <oerjan> it's the most common brainfuck choice, anyway.
03:14:39 <Kaynato> I have a version that treats EOF as all 0, and one that treats it as all 1. The daoyu interpreter here outputs 0 on end of input.
03:17:32 <oerjan> i think that got filtered
03:19:29 <oerjan> var sort of works around lambdabot's usual output format, so it might hit some corner cases.
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03:59:14 -!- hppavilion[2] has set topic: If anyone has the key to the matrix of solidity, please hand it in to Neo at the front desk | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Varanasi (not Kashi).
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04:01:27 <zzo38> I made up some more Un-cards of Magic: the Gathering, such as "Airplanes", "Board Game of Quoz", "Happy Birthday", "James the Ripper", "Kant Trip", "Math Wizard", "Mr.Very-Funny-Guy", "Target Wizard", "Toilet", "Wrath of Gosh".
04:02:36 <shachaf> Are they on your card list?
04:02:39 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
04:03:14 <zzo38> They are a separate file.
04:03:39 <zzo38> (It is uncards.txt instead of cards.txt; the webpage also links to that one too)
04:04:14 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
04:04:42 <zzo38> Yes, so just change the filename to "uncards.txt" to view.
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04:08:09 <shachaf> zzo38: What does it mean to ante your internal organs?
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04:08:56 <zzo38> shachaf: I would think so, but it is flavor text so probably it doesn't matter
04:09:11 <shachaf> But flavor text of un-cards is important.
04:09:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i'm not sure it's that sort of matrix although i'm not sure it isn't, either
04:09:52 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: It's a numeric matrix so complex that it has become a simulation of the real world
04:09:55 -!- shachaf has set topic: If anyone has the determinant to the matrix of solidity, please hand it in to Neo at the front desk | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Varanasi (not K.
04:10:16 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
04:10:19 -!- shachaf has set topic: If anyone has the key to the matrix of solidity, please hand it in to Neo at the front desk | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Varanasi (not Kashi).
04:10:21 <zzo38> There is one actually printed by Wizards of the Coast that has a ability in the flavor text, but it says it doesn't work because it is flavor text, but the reminder text that says that is also part of the flavor text and is not a rule text
04:10:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i am pretty sure that's not what treederwright meant hth
04:11:20 <shachaf> zzo38: I think "Everyone win the game" should be "Everyone wins the game".
04:11:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i dispute that. afair he was clearly one of those looking for the other kind of #esoteric.
04:11:34 <shachaf> Though WOTC would probably phrase that a bit differently.
04:11:48 <zzo38> The card WotC wrote is called "_____"
04:11:53 <oerjan> so the chance of him understanding numerical matrices is pretty low
04:13:09 <shachaf> zzo38: I'd prefer it if the flavor text ability cost {0}.
04:13:21 <shachaf> Because then it wouldn't even be clear in most situations whether you activated it or not.
04:13:58 <shachaf> zzo38: Does "judge" mean someone WoTC made a judge?
04:14:01 <zzo38> I didn't write it though but OK. But then should it also say "this ability is a mana ability" too, to be even less clear?
04:14:21 <shachaf> zzo38: That would be good.
04:14:30 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes it means a judge of Magic: the Gathering for the game you are playing.
04:14:34 <shachaf> zzo38: Or does it refer to a creature type or soemething?
04:14:44 <shachaf> I know there's a card called Judge's Familiar, and probably other judge cards.
04:14:48 <zzo38> (So, not one of the players, even if they are a certified judge)
04:14:59 <zzo38> If it refer to a creature type it would be capitalized.
04:15:58 <shachaf> zzo38: When you say "take the egg out of the frying pan", do you indicate that it would be a fried egg?
04:16:11 <shachaf> Because the flavor text refers to boiling. But I've never heard of boiling an egg in a frying pan.
04:16:59 <zzo38> Neither have I, but that doesn't necessarily make it impossible!
04:17:19 <zzo38> Anyways the flavor text is not about eggs; it says a clock doesn't boil.
04:18:28 <shachaf> Yes, but presumably the clock is boiling an egg.
04:18:32 <shachaf> Or not boiling it in this case.
04:19:12 <shachaf> zzo38: Does "hand" in "Hans Cutting Device" refer to your physical hand or the zone containing your cards?
04:19:43 <zzo38> Normally "hand" means the zone with your cards, but in this case it is unclear (I don't know the answer).
04:20:15 <zzo38> (Either way it seems nonsense though)
04:20:30 <shachaf> "Each half still counts as only half of a card though." -- what does that mean?
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04:21:32 <zzo38> I suppose it mean if you want to sacrifice it, that you must sacrifice both halves. Some things I write on Un-cards even I don't know. (If I knew I would add notes explaining it!)
04:21:37 <shachaf> What are the numbers in parentheses, like (pi/e) and (3(1/2))?
04:22:18 <zzo38> On the type line that represents power/toughness or loyalty
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04:23:02 <zzo38> So, the initial loyalty of Mr.Very-Funny-Guy is three and a half
04:23:23 <shachaf> "reach" isn't usually a verb, even when a creature has Reach.
04:23:48 <zzo38> (You need to cut the counter in half and put half of it on the card, or use something else to represent half of a counter)
04:23:54 <shachaf> What does Smoke Factory do?
04:24:07 <zzo38> shachaf: The text "Goblins cannot reach Nirvana" is from someone else; I made up the explanation for it myself
04:24:18 <shachaf> Ah, then you should credit it.
04:24:19 <shachaf> Why does Smoking Wand behave differently on Tuesdays?
04:24:40 <zzo38> Smoke Factory adds smoke into your mana pool.
04:25:04 <shachaf> What happens if you start playing the game while standing up with Tallest Conspiracy, but then sit down after the game starts?
04:25:09 <shachaf> Yes, but what does that mean?
04:25:39 <zzo38> I do not remember where the text of Nirvana is from. Smoking Wand is from my father though; he suggested that.
04:26:14 <zzo38> I would think that if you stand up but then you sit down after the game has already started, it doesn't make a change, because that effect has already been applied.
04:26:29 <shachaf> What can you do with {Q} in your mana pool?
04:27:01 <zzo38> I don't know. Pay costs with {Q} (the untap symbol) perhaps?
04:27:08 <shachaf> What is God, in the context of Magic: The Gathering?
04:27:15 <shachaf> zzo38: Oh, that would be pretty neat.
04:27:27 <zzo38> "God" is a subtype I think.
04:27:27 <shachaf> Though I'd think it should be in your regular pool, since it's not mana.
04:27:35 <shachaf> How can you destroy a subtype?
04:28:35 <shachaf> Does Wheel of Hand-cutting work the same way as a card without that flavor text would?
04:28:56 <zzo38> It has no flavor text; it has reminder text.
04:29:23 <shachaf> What does it mean to sacrifice a zone?
04:29:25 <zzo38> The rules say that flavor text and reminder text do not affect the game, so I think it would work the same way
04:30:21 <zzo38> shachaf: My guess is that it has to be a zone containing no cards other than possibly permanents you control
04:31:24 <zzo38> The rule of game says that doing some effect to a zone that does not apply to zone applies to each card in that zone, so that is why I would make such a guess.
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04:42:33 <hppavilion[2]> What kind of units would go in an esoteric processor
04:44:16 <zzo38> How is sinking point unit working?
04:49:29 <oerjan> Completely Pointless Unit
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05:00:56 <Kaynato> `dao $$$(([]!/[])/[/[]]):<
05:01:09 <Kaynato> `dao $$$(([]!/[])/[/[]])>:<
05:01:10 <HackEgo> nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
05:01:41 <Kaynato> `dao $$$(([]!/[])/[/[]])>:S<
05:17:57 <oerjan> the girl genius plot coagulates
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05:40:03 <newsham> dao and the art of segfaults
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05:53:49 <HackEgo> U+E01E - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ee 80 9e UTF-16BE: e01e Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+E01E \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
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07:36:39 <\oren\> John Böhner called Ted Cruz "Lucifer in the flesh"
07:41:48 <\oren\> Rep. Peter King (R-NY) said he "gives Lucifer a bad name"
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07:43:27 <\oren\> since when do all these god-fearing people talk about the Devil so much?
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07:58:12 <rdococ> that's like saying that everyone fears harry potter
08:01:21 <oerjan> are you trolling again
08:15:52 <\oren\> rdococ: I meant it in the metaphorical sense like "relgious"
08:18:28 <\oren\> although, trump doesn't seem the type
08:37:41 <hppavilion[2]> \oren\: Because Satan is a cool dude. It's product placement, really.
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09:24:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * H3LL * New user account
09:32:34 <\oren\> I stayed up too late and will require massive coffee to mmorrow
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11:07:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46869&oldid=46365 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* Interpreters */
11:18:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants/Crunchfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46870&oldid=43705 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* The program */
11:33:37 <izabera> i'm watching harry potter 1 and i just found the house's hourglasses and i'm like 190% sure nobody knows they're there
11:34:43 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/74AYEqV.jpg nevill falls down and you can see them behind him
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11:37:34 <izabera> ooh people on the internet found them in other shots as well
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12:09:20 <lambdabot> CYUL 291100Z 02009KT 30SM SCT240 00/M07 A3020 RMK CI3 SLP229
12:09:53 <boily> positive cow today! still too cold, but we're making progress!
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12:31:09 * impomatic visited the set for the Harry Potter films :-)
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14:48:43 <Koen_> @send boily a une vingtaine de kilometres de la tour eiffel, maintenant
14:59:48 <Koen_> I passed a test about turing machines in mars, and all I was told about it was my grade, but I didn't get to see what I wrote and wasn't told what wasn't correct
15:00:01 <Koen_> anyone interested in reviewing some of the questions today?
15:00:25 <Koen_> the "hardest" questions (assumedly the ones where I did something wrong) are about turing machines with halting oracles
15:01:11 <Koen_> there are 9 questions
15:03:02 <Koen_> let's call TM the set of all Turing machines, and HTD the set of all Turing machines with halting oracles (and also "a TM" or "an HTM" one particular machine)
15:05:29 <Koen_> 4) show that the problem "DoNotHaltForAll" of deciding whether for a given (input) TM there exists one input i such that TM/i doesn't halt
15:05:49 <Koen_> can be semi-decided by an HTM
15:09:03 <Koen_> 5) let's call PI2^oracle the set of decision problems that can be semi-decided by an HTM, and PI2^logic the set of decision problems that can be rewritten as \forall x, \exists y, D(m, x, y) where m is input and D is decidable by TM
15:09:31 <Koen_> (the final aim of those questions is to show that those two sets of problems are equal)
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15:10:03 <Koen_> 5) show that DoNotHaltForAll is PI2^logic
15:10:35 <Koen_> 6) show that PI2^logic is a subset of PI2^oracle
15:11:02 <Koen_> 7) (indicated as the hardest of the nine questions) show that PI2^oracle is a subset of PI2^logic
15:11:31 <Koen_> 8) show that DoNotHaltForAll is PI2-complete
15:12:06 <Koen_> (ie PI2-hard, since we've proven in question (4) that is was PI2)
15:12:24 <Koen_> 9) show that DoNotHaltForAll can't be decided by an HTM
15:13:56 <Koen_> also questions 1), 2) and 3) were "can an HTM decide the halting problem for TM", "can a TM decide the halting problem for HTM", and "show that an HTM can't decide the halting problem for HTM"
15:15:02 <Koen_> have I appealed to your interest in riddles and turing machines yet?
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16:09:54 <fizzie> Koen_: I assume 4 at least is straight-forwardly semi-decided by the HTM which iterates over all inputs i and halts if the oracle says TM/i would halt, since that HTM will clearly halt iff such an i exists.
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16:38:50 <Koen_> fizzie : yes, questions 1-2-3-4 were pretty straightforward
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17:16:57 <hppavilion[2]> Perhaps we should formalize Esolang:Policy in a subpage into categorical modal logic or something...
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17:36:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Hppavilion1 * uploaded "[[File:Bf-pie-chart.png]]": An example of a pie chart created by counting the occurrences of each BF instruction in Taneb's banner generator.
17:37:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Hppavilion1 * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Bf-pie-chart.png]]": An example of a pie chart created by counting the occurrences of each BF instruction in Taneb's banner generator. (typos may exist).
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18:59:57 <lambdabot> prooftechnique said 1d 24m 8s ago: https://xkcd.com/903/ <- alt text. Enjoy
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19:15:53 <gamemanj> I got from Gopher (the animal) to Philosophy
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19:16:50 <gamemanj> It was pretty certain once I hit Latin though... wait a sec. Dammit, "(from Latin rodere" was in brackets.
19:16:53 <prooftechnique> I find that science and mathematics are the common elements
19:17:22 <prooftechnique> Europe is a big pivot, too, but only because it leads to mathematics pretty quickly
19:17:42 <gamemanj> Ok, so having fixed my mistake where I went from Rodent to Latin, I'm currently on:
19:17:50 <gamemanj> Gopher -> Rodent -> Mammal -> Clade
19:18:41 <gamemanj> -> Biology -> Natural Science -> Science Aaand I've already been here and I know it leads to Philosophy.
19:20:33 <gamemanj> (-> Knowledge -> Awareness -> Conscious -> Consciousness -> Quality (philosophy) -> Philosophy)
19:21:06 <gamemanj> (Anything that hits ANY OF THESE will eventually lead to Philosophy)
19:23:21 <gamemanj> (Given that "Science" is an umbrella term, and the general writing style of Wikipedia articles, I'd bet "Graphene" gets to "Science" pretty quickly, and from then on, well, it's kind of obvious.)
19:24:40 <gamemanj> (Graphene -> Allotrope -> Greek (UHOH, if we hit Language, after my accidental wandering to the Latin page I know where that leads))
19:25:09 <gamemanj> (correction: s/Allotrope/Allotropy/. )
19:25:21 <Melvar> Yeah, I expect that on many articles, the first thing that comes up is some higher category or abstraction over the current page’s subject.
19:25:46 <gamemanj> (Good news, Greek -> Indo-European languages but it's getting close)
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19:25:46 <Melvar> And categories and abstraction are matters of philosophy, so that’s where they lead.
19:25:47 <prooftechnique> And, as it turns out, if you continue from philosophy, you get back to philosophy
19:26:08 <Melvar> prooftechnique: Well, if that wasn’t the case, not all pages would lead to Philosophy.
19:26:55 <gamemanj> (Indo-European Languages -> Language family (A lot of indirection, but it's pretty certain we'll hit language) -> Language)
19:27:52 <gamemanj> ...Oh. Allotrope's "Greek" was also in brackets. How is it those () containing languages are so distracting?
19:28:06 <gamemanj> (And how is it I keep not seeing the ()?)
19:29:50 <gamemanj> Anyway, Allotrope -> Chemical element -> Atoms -> Matter -> Light -> Electromagnetic radiation -> Radiant Energy -> Radiometry -> Measurement -> Natural Sciences
19:30:04 <gamemanj> And I've already documented where THAT goes...
19:30:22 <gamemanj> (Hint: It leads to something beginning with "Ph"
19:30:51 <gamemanj> so, yep, graphene is not resistant to XKCD
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19:31:47 <gamemanj> Maybe philosophy is at the root of everything
19:32:18 <gamemanj> Everything, at it's root, is applied philosophy
19:33:08 <gamemanj> which in turn is applied philosophy, so everything based on awareness, which is everything, is applied philosophy
19:34:18 <gamemanj> `learn philosophy is at the root of everything.
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19:34:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'philosophy': philosophy is at the root of everything.
19:34:58 <gamemanj> (feel free to correct if it turns out I am horribly wrong, which will likely be the case)
19:41:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'insurance': Insurance is a closed loop.
19:42:09 <prooftechnique> You cannot get to philosophy from insurance (insert jokes here)
19:43:29 <Melvar> prooftechnique: Really? Looks like it to me.
19:43:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:43:59 <HackEgo> Vampires are a wizarding myth Professor Lupin invented to make students hate Professor Snape even more, after Professor Snape almost made the students realize he's a werewolf.
19:44:21 <Melvar> prooftechnique: What is your path?
19:44:27 <prooftechnique> Melvar: Insurance -> Risk Management -> Risk -> Uncertainty -> Insurance
19:44:59 <Melvar> Ah. I missed a set of parens.
19:45:20 <HackEgo> goofix/Goofix is an antropomorphic canine arithmetic notation.
19:47:10 <gamemanj> Insurance against infinite loops that do NOT contain Philosophy
19:48:07 <gamemanj> anyway, who wants to sort the list of fields in "Uncertainty" in alphabetical order for "ease of navigation"?
19:48:22 <gamemanj> (this is a bad idea and you should not be considering it)
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19:49:17 <gamemanj> of course, on the other hand, if the "part of a series" section counts as "before" the main text, then you can say Uncertainty -> Certainty and continue going
19:49:31 <gamemanj> ...which leads you directly to Knowledge.
19:49:52 <gamemanj> Except the problem is, it doesn't, since if your rules are internally consistent then you instead go to Approximation.
19:50:11 <gamemanj> And then since the Certainty link is now accessible you go back to Certainty...
19:51:35 <gamemanj> (...Why'd I add "internally"? It seems it's like most people and the word "Literally" - if I say consistent, I unconsciously prepend "internally" if dealing with rules. TODO: Some way of secretly replacing previous messages without your knowledge.)
19:54:12 <prooftechnique> I wonder what a game with externally consistent rules would look like
20:09:23 <gamemanj> random thoughts, #unknown: Some day, in some BASIC-like language, this should be allowed: 10 PRINT "MWUHAHA" / 20 10 PRINT "SELF MODIFICATION" : END / 30 GOTO 10
20:21:52 <b_jonas> gamemanj: people do that in a few programs on old BASIC-based personal computers, but they have to invoke native code (not basic) to modify the memory where the basic statements are stored. It was never popular, because it's easier to write everything natively without BASIC.
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20:42:02 <zgrep> Is `? the same as `wisdom ?
20:42:25 <HackEgo> /cat: : No such file or directory
20:42:38 <zgrep> HackEgo: You are truly broken.
20:43:33 <zgrep> `le/rn ¿/¿? ¿? ¿? ¿? ¿?
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20:52:29 <b_jonas> It's funny how the vt100 family has indirection so it can store each screen line separately in the memory, rather than having a large continuous array of characters. It has a special video chip to render the crt from such a discontinuous buffer. Otherwise you couldn't insert and delete lines quickly enough.
20:54:20 <b_jonas> I haven't heared of any other video card that does this.
20:54:55 <b_jonas> There are cards where you scroll the whole screen by moving the start pointer, but indirection for each text line is pretty clever and unique.
20:56:22 <ais523> so I stumbled across a bizarre new calling convention yesterday
20:56:24 <b_jonas> (I think it's actually a linked list, but that doesn't matter much. It could be just as well a plain array of pointers to rows.)
20:56:44 <ais523> new x := 1 in (!x + (x := 2; 1)) returns 3
20:56:52 <ais523> even though + evaluates its arguments left to right
20:57:04 <ais523> I guess you could call it return-by-name
20:57:36 <b_jonas> huh, I don't understand what that line means
20:57:50 <b_jonas> what's all that 'new' and 'in' and '!' stuff?
20:58:06 <ais523> let me translate it to ocaml
20:58:22 <ais523> let x = ref 1 in (x + (x := 2; 1))
20:58:39 <ais523> let x = ref 1 in (!x + (x := 2; 1))
20:59:00 <ais523> in C it would be: int x = 1; return x + (x = 2, 1);
20:59:03 <ais523> although that's undefined behaviour in C
20:59:12 <b_jonas> where ref constructs a mutable box, and ! dereferences one, confusingly for people who are used to forth in which ! writes, right?
21:00:27 <hppavilion[1]> Given a PCRE substitution (s/<from>/<to>/) t and a string called r, find a string or set of strings s .. t(s) = r
21:00:29 <b_jonas> and you say that returns 3? ok
21:00:52 <b_jonas> but how does that show the + evaluates its stuff from left to right?
21:02:35 <ais523> b_jonas: no, I mean i somehow manages to return 3 even /though/ + evaluates from left to right
21:02:58 <ais523> oh, hmm, it does that in call by value too
21:03:22 <ais523> I need a better example
21:14:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HaPyLi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46873&oldid=46395 * 64.150.8.23 * (+9) Marked as a stub article
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21:17:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HaPyLi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46874&oldid=46873 * 64.150.8.23 * (+13) /* External resources */ fixed dead link
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22:09:23 <Moon_> `ciol rTestofExistence;
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22:11:16 <Moon_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/CIOL
22:11:21 <Moon_> have the wiki page
22:13:29 <ais523> "print literal" commands are pretty rare in esolangs for some reason
22:13:43 <Moon_> thats why i wrote it in
22:13:50 <ais523> normally they either print variables, or a character at a time
22:14:07 <ais523> Underload is close-ish, but S takes the thing it's printing from the stack
22:14:12 <ais523> so you can compute it at runtime
22:14:17 <ais523> `! underload (te)(st)*S
22:14:54 <ais523> hmm, how do you break out of a loop in CIOL?
22:15:57 <Moon_> `ciol +jrR+RjRr+++++[-p++++P]p_J----[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
22:15:58 <HackEgo> +jrR+RjRr+++++[-p++++P]p_J----[-P+++p]P-oRJ*done;J
22:16:03 <Moon_> fizzie wrote that one
22:16:18 <Moon_> basically fizzie wrote all known quines so far
22:17:11 <ais523> quine-writing in non-esolangs follows some pretty standard patterns
22:17:18 <ais523> esolangs can make it more interesting though
22:17:27 <ais523> the patterns are often still standard but the way you reach them is different
22:17:31 <ais523> and sometimes the patterns aren't standard
22:17:41 <ais523> like the Befunge quines that use one " in order to quote the entire program
22:22:48 <quintopia> theres one in vitsy that uses that idea too
22:23:05 <Moon_> Ais, R is not a command you see every day
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22:29:37 <Moon__> Did you respond to that, Aid?
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22:38:51 <Moon__> still, you dont see a command like R every day :P also
22:39:07 <Moon__> i wanted to challange you to writing a bottles of beer program in CIOL
22:41:46 <Moon__> `` echo thisisasomethingprogram,anythingisasomethingprogram || Something 'fvgfdgvhgfvgfgtbevdeyvsjacuwrba74bv8any97 HackEgo bzn9b99bnteiy'
22:41:50 <HackEgo> thisisasomethingprogram,anythingisasomethingprogram
22:42:06 <Moon__> `` echo thisisasomethingprogram,anythingisasomethingprogram || Something 'fvgfdgvhgfvgfgtbevdeyvsjacuwrba74bv8any97 HackEgo bzn9b99bnteiy'
22:42:07 <HackEgo> thisisasomethingprogram,anythingisasomethingprogram
22:42:55 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....0@.....@....... ..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....À.......À............................@......@............................................@.......@.....\......\........ ....................`......`.....`......¬....... .................`.....`.....à.......à................
22:45:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: locate: not found
22:46:24 <HackEgo> ./bin/Something \ ./Something.c
22:46:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/Something.c
22:46:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: blame: not found
22:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> wait so this is just brainfuck without [] that just executes random code?
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23:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Moon__, what i really want to know is why there's a continue on 6
23:01:16 <Moon__> and the remaints of a [
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23:12:13 <FreeFull> `Something aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
23:12:29 <FreeFull> Not even a single a in the output..
23:12:40 <FreeFull> Oh, right, that will take ages to execute
23:14:48 <Moon__> `` echo fgrtdfxvgdxgfbdfxbvhd | something aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
23:14:51 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: something: command not found
23:15:01 <Moon__> `` echo fgrtdfxvgdxgfbdfxbvhd | Something aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
23:15:57 <FreeFull> I misread the code, I think I'm too tired
23:16:17 <Moon__> and it pauses until the input request is fulfilled
23:16:22 <Phantom_Hoover> got linked this in another channel, idk if it's been posted here yet: http://skullcode.com/
23:16:34 <FreeFull> I did notice current_char isn't even being used =P
23:16:47 <FreeFull> Seems the argument just determines how long it executes for
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23:17:31 <Moon__> i used the CIOL interpreter stripped and randomized to make something
23:17:34 <FreeFull> `` yes ABCD | tr -d '\n' | Something aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
23:18:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46875 * H3LL * (+5096) Confusion
23:20:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46876&oldid=46841 * H3LL * (+16)
23:21:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46877&oldid=46875 * H3LL * (+3) /* Simple cycle */
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23:35:29 <oerjan> i'm suddenly wondering: is there a quicker way to replace all of a buffer in vim with the cut and paste buffer than 1GcG^V ?
23:41:17 <oerjan> huh would you know, that works
23:41:22 <\oren\> that works in notepad too
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23:41:35 <oerjan> yes, but i didn't expect vim support ^A
23:42:17 <\oren\> well it's probably for consistency with other gnome thing
23:42:31 <oerjan> but i guess since it _does_ support ^V already, it makes sense
23:42:47 <oerjan> \oren\: well this is Windows.
23:43:15 <oerjan> i'm not sure what GUI backend gvim uses there by default...
23:43:49 <oerjan> but windows probably had those shortcuts first, anyway
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23:48:34 <oerjan> @tell Koen_ <Koen_> @send boily a une vingtaine de kilometres de la tour eiffel, maintenant <-- that did not work hth
23:48:44 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
23:48:54 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
23:48:59 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
23:49:36 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
23:49:53 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn undo src kind id bid
23:50:02 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
23:50:22 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
23:52:33 * oerjan wonders if there is a foolproof algorithm for how to determine what a lambdabot command corrects to
23:56:25 <zzo38> Can you see the source-codes for lambdabot?
23:59:25 <ais523> zzo38: it doesn't reply to ctcp source
23:59:29 <ais523> but it's possible you can see it some other way
23:59:59 <oerjan> but the plugins are not necessarily the same everywhere
00:00:30 <oerjan> ais523: oh and the ^ was not for zzo38's message, i was backscrolled without realizing
00:00:59 <ais523> I can't really respond to an ^ that points to an unspecified past line
00:01:02 <oerjan> actually it was just to point out what @send correct to
00:01:10 <oerjan> ais523: i'd forgotten i'd said other things
00:02:33 <oerjan> my question about the algorithm was because my attempts at changing one letter at a time failed
00:02:58 <oerjan> although removing one helped
00:03:23 <ais523> well, send→kind and send→undo are both distance 2
00:03:28 <ais523> so you'd have to guess from what it does
00:03:44 <oerjan> no, undo doesn't work with the distance lambdabot uses
00:04:14 <ais523> wait, it's distance 3 I think
00:04:15 <oerjan> lambdabot doesn't correct unless the closest one is unique
00:04:33 <ais523> distances are hard to calculate in your head!
00:04:36 <lambdabot> Error: expected a Haskell expression or declaration
00:04:44 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn undo kind id bid
00:05:19 <oerjan> hm what happened there
00:05:31 <ais523> it's probably an identity command?
00:05:45 <oerjan> it cannot have corrected to @id
00:05:46 <ais523> how do you chain commands anyway
00:05:50 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:05:53 <lambdabot> @@ executes plugin invocations in its arguments, parentheses can be used.
00:05:53 <lambdabot> The commands are right associative.
00:05:53 <lambdabot> is the same as: @@ (@pl (@undo code))
00:06:00 <oerjan> which probably means it's a prefix
00:06:02 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "send"
00:06:03 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: undo kind index id
00:06:27 <ais523> I think I understand what @id does now
00:06:42 <oerjan> ais523: unfortunately the correction only works for the first command
00:07:36 <oerjan> anyway, @ind -> @index, by the other correction rule
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00:08:10 <lambdabot> index <ident>. Returns the Haskell modules in which <ident> is defined
00:08:30 <ais523> so why does that output "bzzt" if given no input?
00:08:35 <lambdabot> Control.Monad, Prelude, Control.Monad.Instances
00:09:50 <oerjan> that's a strange choice of modules
00:10:08 <oerjan> it cannot be defined in all of them, and it's definitely exported from more
00:11:19 <lambdabot> git clone https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot
00:11:44 <hppavilion[1]> I just learned that Codecademy has a "Pro" feature
00:18:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: just sign up for the world communist revolution hth
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00:24:15 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm kind of tempted to start my own, one with more information on CS theory and stuff too. But knowing me...
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00:36:31 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Canaima seems to have been renamed to Kukenán (with intermediate updates Kerepakupai, Auyantepui, and Roraima)
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00:48:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46878&oldid=46877 * H3LL * (+4) /* Overview */
00:52:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46879&oldid=46878 * H3LL * (+0) /* Operator */
00:53:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46880&oldid=46879 * H3LL * (+1) /* Comparison operator */
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00:56:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46881&oldid=46880 * H3LL * (+1) /* Example programs */
00:58:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46882&oldid=46881 * H3LL * (+90) /* Example programs */
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01:01:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46883&oldid=46882 * H3LL * (+15) /* Hello World! */
01:02:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46884&oldid=46883 * H3LL * (+2) /* [Hello, World!|Hello World!] */
01:03:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46885&oldid=46884 * H3LL * (+0) /* Hello, World! */
01:04:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46886&oldid=46885 * H3LL * (+1) /* Example programs */
01:05:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46887&oldid=46886 * H3LL * (+1)
01:07:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46888&oldid=46887 * H3LL * (+1) /* Confusion */
01:08:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46889&oldid=46888 * H3LL * (+2)
01:11:01 * Sgeo starts reading about DCSS again
01:11:15 <Sgeo> So, Distortion-branded stuff can be strong but is dangerous to unweild?
01:12:22 <int-e> "department of child support services" beats it on google though
01:12:24 <Sgeo> Oh reading the strategy suggests that it's not so great
01:14:31 <Sgeo> http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Distortion
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01:14:56 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: That was a pun about the massive tower of edits, but I was going to ask that anyway :P
01:15:27 <Moon_> `ciol rFizzie beleives ciol is turing complete;
01:16:22 <HackEgo> Fizzie beleives ciol is turing complete
01:16:38 <Moon_> would you say that is corrent hppavilion[1]
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01:17:18 <Moon_> Fizzie thinks CIOL is turing complete
01:21:55 <int-e> it's a plausible belief too
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01:28:48 * boily you are trying to reach is currently suffering from hot sauce. holy fungot that shit's legit.
01:28:48 <fungot> boily: i know. the gui stuff is drscheme specific.
01:29:33 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: don't tell bush
01:29:46 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: God no. Though I hear he's a rather excellent painter now.
01:29:46 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: you have to. i usually make " mind maps", because it often isn't, but if global warming continues, at least
01:29:59 <boily> hppavellon[1]. oerjan.
01:30:04 <boily> uuuh... hellørjan.
01:30:33 <boily> Blair's Ultra Death.
01:30:51 <fungot> int-e: do as much of a hint that i included in the arguments counted in length. one end is pointed, the other isnt
01:31:10 <int-e> and that was even better
01:31:25 * hppavilion[1] idly wonders what would happen if we made a sentient kernel and plugged in fungot
01:31:25 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: we never saw that
01:31:35 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: Yeah, that's why I wonder what it'd be like
01:31:35 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: is it? stack-based?) you're not allowed to touch them at all,
01:34:09 <HackEgo> philosophy is at the root of everything.
01:34:29 <oerjan> `` sed -i sapaPa wisdom/philosophy
01:34:43 <HackEgo> Philosophy is at the root of everything.
01:35:06 <int-e> . o O ( s/is/gets/ )
01:35:37 <oerjan> pretty sure is was intended.
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01:37:09 <int-e> / is hard to pronounce
01:37:58 <oerjan> <prooftechnique> You cannot get to philosophy from insurance (insert jokes here) <-- ooh
01:38:21 <oerjan> prooftechnique: how did you discover that
01:40:47 <hppavilion[1]> (I follow the strategy in which you also exclude things in parentheses, on top of italics)
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01:41:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wallstreet: not found
01:41:57 <HackEgo> latin/LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI
01:42:07 <HackEgo> gaspatsjo/gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days
01:42:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: stupidity: not found
01:43:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: how was he wrong?
01:43:45 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: And I followed the first link on each page to philosophy
01:43:58 <hppavilion[1]> In finitely-many steps, with no editing in between :P
01:44:16 <lambdabot> ENVA 292350Z 11014KT CAVOK 08/M01 Q1018 RMK WIND 670FT 14020G31KT
01:44:21 <lambdabot> CYUL 300000Z 08009KT 30SM OVC250 10/M11 A3011 RMK CI8 SLP200
01:44:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that doesn't describe how he was wrong, since i did the same and never got to philosophy.
01:45:53 <oerjan> you realize that you are being unhelpful by not saying which pages you visited, right?
01:46:18 <oerjan> (mine were the same as prooftechnique afaict)
01:46:54 <oerjan> i'm sure you have some kind of twisting of the intent in mind.
01:48:21 <hppavilion[1]> Insurance -> risk management -> risk -> physical health
01:48:30 <oerjan> physical health is in parentheses.
01:49:26 <hppavilion[1]> The solution is clearly to scrap it all and start over.
01:49:41 * hppavilion[1] goes to the center of the internet and starts dismantling it
01:49:47 <oerjan> (so do i. i mean how can not deal efficiently with this sockpuppet i've been whacking. but i digress.)
01:50:32 <boily> hppavilion[1]: there is no center of the internet. every point of the internet is its center.
01:51:22 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Um, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh7lp9umG2I hth
01:53:05 * boily wants to thwack hppavilion[1], but he makes a good point there
01:54:28 <int-e> boily: Well I don't see how that's stopping you from thwacking.
01:54:58 * boily merrily thwacks hppavilion[1]
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02:07:17 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: marsha: command not found
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02:16:54 <tswett> to solve this Sudoku puzzle by making a bunch of permutation grids.
02:17:10 <tswett> And by "permutation grid" I mean a grid representing an unknown permutation of a set.
02:17:54 <tswett> Say, a 5x5 grid, representing a permutation of 5 elements. Each row is an element, as is each column. You blacken a square to indicate that it is not part of the permutation.
02:18:07 <tswett> Eventually you'll end up with exactly one white square in every row and in every column.
02:20:09 <quintopia> there are a lot of permutations in sudoku
02:20:20 <quintopia> this seems as if it would take more time than it's worth
02:20:33 <tswett> But this is a pretty difficult puzzle.
02:20:54 <quintopia> have you tried all of the other logical techniques?
02:22:19 <quintopia> look at the list of techniques on the side: http://www.sudokuwiki.org/sudoku.htm
02:26:35 <tswett> Now that looks interesting.
02:28:13 <tswett> All right. By spending five or ten minutes making this grid here, I've successfully determined that by looking at just this row, I can't find out anything more about this row.
02:31:41 <tswett> I think my most promising approach here is to look at the alternatives for this huge tree of alternating pairs.
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02:44:04 <tswett> Nothing really interesting has turned up so far.
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02:57:44 <tswett> Well gee. Assuming I did everything exactly right, I've found an inconsistency in one of the possibilities.
02:57:47 <tswett> You know what that means.
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03:02:04 <tswett> And with that figured out, it looks like the rest of the puzzle is collapsing.
03:02:04 <tswett> There, I solved the whole thing in less than two hours!
03:24:10 <tswett> quintopia: looks like it's missing naked and hidden quadruples!
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04:04:16 <tswett> Oh, it does have naked quads.
04:07:17 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: woohoo! \o/
04:07:38 <tswett> You're goddamn fucking welcome.
05:00:37 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: The phrase "Mr. President" in the US disturbs me
05:01:39 <pikhq> What's disturbing about it?
05:02:02 <pikhq> Keeping in mind that it's intended as an alternative to "Your Highness".
05:03:25 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: But "Dr. President" gives off at least the facade that the individual in power is smrt.
05:04:23 <hppavilion[1]> Why doesn't *n?x have a part of the directory tree called "/sht"
05:05:25 <pikhq> I'm afraid that you're unlikely to see "Dr. President" as the term of address. Both because it seems unlikely that we'll have a President with a doctorate, and it seems unlikely we'll add "Dr." to the title.
05:07:04 <pikhq> Oh, actually, we have had at least one President with a doctorate.
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05:07:16 <pikhq> Obama has a Juris Doctor.
05:07:31 <pikhq> So, y'know, there's that.
05:07:46 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_by_education
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05:08:17 <pikhq> Oh, didn't know Wilson had a Ph.D.
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05:09:01 <shachaf> Perhaps "Dr." is an abbreviation of "Dear".
05:09:58 <shachaf> Just get an honorary doctorate.
05:10:55 <pikhq> Just get a non-accredited degree.
05:11:35 <oerjan> Dr. shachaf i think you're stretching it
05:12:33 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: The fact that "fictitious academic degrees" is not a wikipedia page makes me sad
05:13:00 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_honorary_degrees
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05:13:35 <shachaf> You could become a Hon. D.A., if you're a car.
05:13:44 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Those aren't strictly "fictitious" so much as "useless"
05:14:19 <pikhq> They are inarguably real honorary degrees.
05:15:05 * oerjan gives hppavilion[1] an honorary swatting for misdirection -----###
05:15:37 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Anti-doctorate: A mandatory degree forced upon stupid people upon achieving enough stupid to teach stupid at a university level
05:16:18 <shachaf> oerjan: i feel like all my swattings have been dishonorary
05:16:50 <oerjan> trust your feelings, Dr. shachaf
05:16:54 <pikhq> I'm pretty certain that would be a St.D. A Stultus Doctor.
05:17:19 <shachaf> there's a hole in the bucket, dr. oerjan, dr. oerjan
05:17:40 <oerjan> because all the sciences descend from philosophy
05:18:07 <hppavilion[1]> Anybody who gets a doctorate in geology should be referred to as a "Rocktor"
05:18:18 <oerjan> anyway, i'd have you know i have a genuine Doctor Scientiarum degree hth
05:18:36 <pikhq> Because "philosophiae" here is not referring to the present-day academic field of philosophy, but rather the original meaning, "love of wisdom".
05:18:40 <shachaf> philosophy comes from the greek meaning "love of one's own voice"
05:19:02 <pikhq> Which is to say that most academic study was considered "philosophy".
05:19:06 <oerjan> hm maybe that is just Scientiae
05:19:42 <oerjan> it's abbr. D.Sc., anyway.
05:19:45 <pikhq> So, just another instance of an outdated use of a term.
05:19:50 <pikhq> Just like "Christian Science".
05:19:53 <shachaf> hm, or was it "love of phyllo dough"
05:21:53 <oerjan> love of false etymology
05:22:58 <shachaf> oerjan: etymology is subjective hth
05:25:15 <shachaf> itymology is certainly more popular in this channel
05:25:55 <oerjan> `learn Itymology is the science of understanding the true meaning of a statement.
05:26:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'itymology': Itymology is the science of understanding the true meaning of a statement.
05:27:49 <HackEgo> itym "i think you mean" hth
05:28:42 <oerjan> sounds like a Durkon proverb
05:29:49 <shachaf> i wish there was an olist search
05:29:57 <shachaf> and that each strip came with a transcription
05:30:14 <shachaf> i feel like there was a phrase similar to that somewhere
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05:32:53 <oerjan> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html
05:33:11 <shachaf> also http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0170.html
05:45:44 <fowl> Need an irc bot that can be GM https://1d4chan.org/images/7/70/EVERYONE_IS_JOHN.png
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06:09:18 <HackEgo> Phantom_Hoover int-e hppavilion[1] b_jonas boily a`a`a`a`jo7as a`a`a`a`jo8as a`a`a`a`jo3as a`a`a`a`jo6as a`a`a`a`jo5as a`a`a`a`jo4as a`a`a`a`jo2as a`a`a`a`jo1as a`a`a`a`jonas0 a`a`a`a lambdabot chicken_jonas myname
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06:34:50 <fowl> hppavilion[1], i have taken popular opinion under advisement and decided to flip-flop
06:46:20 <Sgeo> "As a cryptographer for the U.S. government during WWII, he developed the first unbreakable cipher."
06:46:33 <Sgeo> How many unbreakable ciphers are there? I thought there was just one?
06:47:22 <coppro> two if you count quantum cryptography as distinct
06:47:34 <coppro> though really it's just a way of making an OTP
06:47:45 <coppro> we really need One True Pairing-based crypto
06:59:50 <Lymia> Aren't there other "unbreakable" schemes too?
07:00:09 <Lymia> Stuff like Shamir's Secret Sharing
07:00:27 <zzo38> Secret sharing is not a ordinary kind of cipher though
07:01:57 <zzo38> I do know how secret sharing works; one way is to decide a point and make any number of equations of lines that pass through that point. With one line you cannot figure it out but with any two lines they intersect at the one point. With the proper way to encode the data and decide the point so that it cannot "leak", it should be safe.
07:07:15 <hppavilion[1]> But the shell restarted and I forgot to re-update some variables (and bash is stupid and treats unassigned variables as the null string)
07:07:33 <hppavilion[1]> And I can't remember what I did to make it work last time
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08:53:31 <gamemanj> I'm still thinking I should put on a cloak so I can travel across the world, but how...
08:54:30 <fowl> gamemanj, ask in #freenode
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11:26:53 <izabera> does anyone know a service like archive.org that ignores robots.txt?
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12:25:54 <fizzie> I'd like to qualify my statement that it was assuming a tape of unlimited length.
12:29:08 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Re breaking out of loops: the spec doesn't make it clear, but unlike [, the CIOL ] actually does the Brainfuck thing, tests for the current cell being nonzero.
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13:10:09 <Melvar> gamemanj: Hamming distance ≤ 2.
13:11:50 <Melvar> The actual command being @messages-loud .
13:13:47 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
13:14:35 <Melvar> Sometimes random short words will turn out to be a valid command, and then great fun can be had trying to figure out what command was actually triggered.
13:14:48 <Melvar> Oh, you just found that out by yourself.
13:15:02 <gamemanj> Either Melvar is very fast at typing or Melvar predicted the future
13:15:16 <Melvar> I was already typing that, as the followup indicates.
13:15:58 <fizzie> The fabled "trainfuck" language.
13:16:09 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs: 1: 1:Parse error: ++++++++
13:16:20 <gamemanj> Ok, I give up, I don't understand lambdabot anymore
13:16:30 <Melvar> fizzie: You know, I’m sure there’s porn of trains fucking. Certainly I’ve seen planes.
13:16:57 <fizzie> dt was probably ft from the ft module.
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13:17:04 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
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13:17:25 <int-e> you're always tempting me to disable that feature
13:17:27 <gamemanj> todo: make a hackego <nick>++ script of some sort
13:17:28 <fizzie> "ft <ident>. Generate theorems for free"
13:17:59 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl let id faq do bf @ ? .
13:18:01 <fizzie> And ip probably turned into id.
13:18:14 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl let id faq do bf @ ? .
13:18:17 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl let id faq do bf @ ? .
13:18:34 <fizzie> The "Maybe you meant:" was referring to your @ft, not whatever you said after it.
13:18:59 <lambdabot> Translate Monad operators to do notation.
13:19:10 <int-e> different kinds of command lookup
13:19:14 <fizzie> I got 'ft' from a random COMMANDS file from the webs.
13:19:23 <fizzie> But seems that it's stale.
13:19:26 <lambdabot> Pattern match failure in do expression at src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Haskell/Free/FreeTheorem.hs:54:21-35
13:19:50 <int-e> also... apparently... it's not very robust
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13:22:07 <gamemanj> lambdabot's anti-botloop seems to consist of prefixing everything with a space if the user had anything to do with it
13:22:27 <int-e> that's the idea... and there are some known holes in it
13:22:57 <gamemanj> @id "\nPRIVMSG #esoteric :hello"
13:23:03 <gamemanj> Apparently that is not one of them
13:24:06 <gamemanj> @bf ++++++++[>++++>++++++++++<<-]++++++++++>>---><<<.>>><[->+>+<<]>+++.++.---------.+++++++++++++.---------.++++++.------------.<<.>>------------------------------------.[-]>[-<+<+>>]<--------.++++++++++++++.----.+++++.---------------.+++++++++++++.---------.------.<<.>>---------.++++++++++++++.---.+++++++..+++.<<<.>>>
13:24:46 <int-e> It's too bad that NOTICE doesn't work as intended in the IRC RFC...
13:25:00 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
13:25:15 <gamemanj> ... there's nothing about echo on that helptext...
13:25:27 <int-e> (the RFC says, bots should reply to PRIVMSG with NOTICE and never reply to NOTICE at all)
13:25:51 <int-e> But some clients are really annoying when a NOTICE is received... so nobody uses it.
13:26:14 <gamemanj> they treat a NOTICE like a NOTICE instead of a message + a little bit of metadata
13:26:15 <Melvar> int-e: Wasn’t there a thing where the most widespread client was really really bad in several ways and this has misshaped IRC forever?
13:26:35 <int-e> Sure, we still suffer the mirc color codes, for example
13:27:17 <Melvar> Because idris-bot produces color, I have actually had to contend with misimplementations of those color codes. -_____-
13:27:25 <fizzie> Yeah, ^help only covers the builtins.
13:27:36 <gamemanj> it's an awfully complicated echo...
13:27:46 <fizzie> It's not that complicated.
13:27:51 <fungot> I hear an echo? I hear an echo?
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13:27:56 <gamemanj> wait, a sec, it's writing it twice
13:28:02 <fizzie> gamemanj: Sure, it's *echoing*.
13:28:32 <fizzie> ^reverb Reverberating.
13:28:32 <fungot> RReevveerrbbeerraattiinngg..
13:28:41 <fizzie> There's also that, along those lines.
13:29:24 <Melvar> So, you know how the color codes go ^Cmm or ^Cmm,nn ? I’ve found out that at least one client parses “^Cmm,” as though it were “^Cmm”, so that hilighted commas get lost entirely.
13:30:49 <Melvar> But only the one client I think so far displayed that particular problem.
13:33:58 <gamemanj> anyway, let's see how ^echo reacts to colourcodes
13:34:09 <fungot> bleudcliadm bleudcliadm
13:35:30 <gamemanj> ^echo the FSM of the colors causes a reinterpretation.
13:35:30 <fungot> the FSM of the colors causes a reinterpretation. the FSM of the colors causes a reinterpretation.
13:37:11 <gamemanj> ^echo 04 There are differences between these sentences.
13:37:11 <fungot> 04 There are differences between these sentences. 04 There are differences between these sentences.
13:37:52 <gamemanj> so control sequences can't cross the "boundary"
13:37:56 <Melvar> It puts a space in between.
13:40:42 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
13:40:52 <idris-bot> Command "\ETX04type" not permitted.
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15:42:52 <\oren\> hmm looks like they line up to me
15:46:33 <HackEgo> [U+2502 BOX DRAWINGS LIGHT VERTICAL] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+007C VERTICAL LINE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+2502 BOX DRAWINGS LIGHT VERTICAL]
15:47:36 <HackEgo> [U+239C LEFT PARENTHESIS EXTENSION] [U+239F RIGHT PARENTHESIS EXTENSION] [U+23A2 LEFT SQUARE BRACKET EXTENSION] [U+23A5 RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET EXTENSION] [U+23AA CURLY BRACKET EXTENSION] [U+23AE INTEGRAL EXTENSION]
15:49:37 <HackEgo> [U+16C1 RUNIC LETTER ISAZ IS ISS I] [U+FFDC HALFWIDTH HANGUL LETTER I] [U+FE31 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL EM DASH] [U+FE32 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL EN DASH] [U+FE33 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL LOW LINE] [U+2223 DIVIDES] [U+2225 PARALLEL TO]
15:50:51 <\oren\> man there are a lot of characters that look like vertical lines
15:54:16 <HackEgo> [U+0964 DEVANAGARI DANDA] [U+0965 DEVANAGARI DOUBLE DANDA] [U+FF5C FULLWIDTH VERTICAL LINE]
15:54:46 <HackEgo> [U+01C0 LATIN LETTER DENTAL CLICK] [U+01C1 LATIN LETTER LATERAL CLICK]
15:55:04 <\oren\> oh yeah I forgot those
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16:12:06 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
16:12:13 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
16:12:35 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
16:12:45 <int-e> now that was redundant
16:13:11 <\oren\> argh my ssh connection is screwy
16:13:28 <\oren\> it's sending a lot faster than it recieves
16:14:03 <\oren\> hmmm... maybe I should kill some of these chrome windows
16:15:42 <idris-bot> (input):1:3:Can't disambiguate since no name has a suitable type:
16:15:42 <idris-bot> Data.Fin.fromInteger, Prelude.Interfaces.fromInteger
16:16:23 <idris-bot> (&) : (a -> b) -> (b -> c) -> a -> c
16:16:54 <\oren\> gamemanj: I was testing to see if my arrows line up with my box drawers propery
16:17:27 <\oren\> wait wtf, & is fucntion composition or somethin?!
16:17:33 <gamemanj> ...oren: "いえい" "Portrait of deceased person" according to a translator...
16:17:50 <gamemanj> oren: You're either using really weird ligatures...
16:18:01 <Melvar> ( 5 `prim__andBigInt` 3
16:18:06 <gamemanj> oren: or you have an interesting system for choosing test words.
16:18:19 <\oren\> gamemanj: your translator is very outdared
16:18:28 <gamemanj> oren: Tell that to Google Translate :)
16:18:38 <\oren\> gamemanj: in real life japanese いえい is "YAY"
16:19:31 <HackEgo> U+3044 HIRAGANA LETTER I \ UTF-8: e3 81 84 UTF-16BE: 3044 Decimal: い \ い \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+3048 HIRAGANA LETTER E \ UTF-8: e3 81 88 UTF-16BE: 3048 Decimal: え \ え \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+3044 HIRAGANA LETTER I \ UTF-8: e3 81 84 UTF-16BE: 3044
16:20:08 <Melvar> \oren\: (&) is reverse function composition. Note that | is a keyword, so you can’t have an operator (|), so using (&) for any sort of and doesn’t make much sense.
16:21:25 <Melvar> lambdabot thinks it should be reverse function application instead, but I disagree.
16:26:07 <quintopia> tswett: < tswett> quintopia: looks like it's missing naked and hidden quadruples! <--- "Naked quads" is right underneath "Hidden Pairs/Triples"
16:28:08 <gamemanj> the significance of this being...
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16:36:55 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Bool
16:38:03 <Melvar> @quickcheck \p m => maybe True p m == all p m
16:38:10 <Melvar> @qc \p m => maybe True p m == all p m
16:38:42 <int-e> @check \p m => maybe True p m == all p m
16:38:42 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs: 1: 6:Parse error: =>
16:38:51 <int-e> @check \p m. maybe True p m == all p m
16:38:56 <Melvar> @check \p m -> maybe True p m == all p m
16:39:09 <int-e> too many functional programming languages
16:39:17 <Melvar> @check \p m -> maybe False p m == any p m
16:39:30 <Melvar> I wonder how its instantiating the type variable.
16:39:41 <int-e> (=> is ML; . is used in Isabelle... technically not a programming language, but there's a significant fragment that feels like one)
16:40:03 <Melvar> => is also used in Idris, that’s why I made that mistake.
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16:44:31 <Melvar> What is an optic that enables one to update multiple elements inside a structure simultaneously with the same function?
16:46:25 -!- jaboja has joined.
17:03:15 <Melvar> Hm. What if you can also retrieve multiple elements?
17:16:56 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
17:18:49 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,2,3] | .[0,2] = 7'
17:19:28 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:20:32 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,2,3] | .[0,2] |= . + 4'
17:21:02 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,2,3] | .[0,2]'
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17:26:13 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,[2,3],4] | recurse
17:26:16 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
17:26:18 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,[2,3],4] | recurse'
17:26:20 <HackEgo> [1,[2,3],4] \ 1 \ [2,3] \ 2 \ 3 \ 4
17:26:34 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,[2,3],4] | recurse | numbers'
17:26:53 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,[2,3],4] | (recurse | numbers) |= . + 4'
17:28:39 <Melvar> Neat. I wasn’t sure that was possible.
17:28:55 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,[2,3],4] | (recurse | select(. > 2)) |= . + 4'
17:28:59 <HackEgo> jq: error (at <unknown>): array ([1,[2,3],4]) and number (4) cannot be added
17:29:21 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,[2,3],4] | (recurse | numbers | select(. > 2)) |= . + 4'
17:30:21 <Melvar> `` jq -cn '[1,[2,3],4] | (recurse | arrays | .[0] | numbers) |= . + 4'
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19:55:54 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I got a cross-compiler almost working yesterday, but I accidentally used two different prefixes
19:56:12 <boily> cross-compiling is insanely hard.
19:57:20 <quintopia> oh. sounds like an exciting saturday
19:57:38 <quintopia> i'm back at starbucks. one more hour of writing before april is over
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19:58:28 <boily> it was more fun this morning. the grilf and I had a nice Saturday morning walk, with croissants, random boutiques, food, sun, crumbling civil engineering...
19:58:52 <boily> gamellomanj. "girlfriend" hth.
19:59:05 <boily> @localtime quintopia
19:59:06 <lambdabot> Local time for quintopia is Sat Apr 30 14:59:05 2016
19:59:18 <boily> you still have plenty of hours left!
19:59:31 <gamemanj> I'm still not sure what it is with the name "gamemanj" and being twisted in every single conceivable manner
19:59:43 <boily> you were porthelloed hth
19:59:48 <gamemanj> ...wait a sec, crumbling civil engineering?
20:00:29 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Didn't you know boilia's civil engineering is crumbling?
20:00:31 <boily> our bridges, overpasses, highway interchanges, roads, sidewalks are in advanced décrépitude.
20:00:49 <boily> hppavilion[1]: btw, I'm not a civil engineer. I only did computer engineering in school hth
20:00:50 <gamemanj> ...in which case I suggest not standing on those bridges and overpasses.
20:01:00 <boily> . o O ( what's the right word for "décrépitude"? )
20:01:12 <boily> or under them. they even marked the spots for your convenience!
20:01:32 <gamemanj> boily: I'm not sure if you're talking in French or some completely unknown language, but I can infer from context that you probably mean "advanced decay"
20:01:32 <boily> meh, we're waaaay past decay now. world leader in crumbles!
20:01:52 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I'm pretty sure decrepit is an english word
20:02:00 <boily> gamemanj: French, the Québec variant of.
20:02:14 <boily> screw spellcheckers, they're no fun.
20:02:30 <gamemanj> you might as well put the word into a translator
20:02:51 <hppavilion[1]> boily: And even though english doesn't /strictly/ let you make up words on-the-fly, nobody adheres to the giveafuckist view in english-speaking countries
20:03:08 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I already thought decrepit was an english word; I was just checking
20:03:46 * hppavilion[1] absentmindedly wonders what a grilf is, suspecting that it's "girlfriend"
20:04:06 <gamemanj> So I'm not the only person not paying attention to the IRC window most of the time!
20:04:20 <quintopia> i think decrepitude is an acceptable english word
20:04:25 <boily> I also didn't invent the term → http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/grilf.html
20:04:39 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: <gamemanj> "grilf"? <boily> gamellomanj. "girlfriend" hth.
20:05:40 <quintopia> boily: hopefully you also didn't invent the concept. (are you secretly boilazarus?)
20:05:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:05:57 <hppavilion[1]> IRC is an interesting interface; chat-by-topic (as opposed to chat-by-person). It's a shame that the younger generation isn't exposed to it as much.
20:06:16 <gamemanj> so anyway on my plans for world domination and forced IRC usage by all able persons
20:06:27 <boily> hppavilion[1]: people are all over Slack nowadays.
20:06:48 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: i think group messages tend to have a topic with various degrees of stickiness
20:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> Then again, even if the younger generation /was/ exposed to it, they wouldn't use it because STRANGER DANGER DON'T TALK TO ANYONE YOU DIDN'T MEET FACE-TO-FACE ETC
20:07:21 <gamemanj> ah, yes, the good old *EVERYBODY YOU DO NOT KNOW IS EVIL*
20:07:30 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Never heard of it. Maybe it's not a 'murican thing.
20:07:40 <quintopia> boily: and what do you plan on doing with the rest of your day
20:07:53 <Phantom_Hoover> who are you actually talking about when you refer to the ~younger generation~
20:07:59 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I remember finding "don't-talk-to-strangers" to be bullshit from a young age
20:08:26 <Phantom_Hoover> like i remember getting drilled about not talking to strangers when i was a child and if you're going to say that it kept my generation off irc then loooooool
20:08:51 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: I do wonder how on earth the population isn't going down
20:08:53 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I think it's more effective this time around because they have cherry-picked evidence this time
20:08:58 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: all i got was don't talk to strangers when we're not around unless they know the secret code word
20:09:11 <quintopia> ESPECIALLY DONT GO WITH THEM UNLESS THEY GIVE YOU THE CODEWORD
20:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], do you actually know anyone in their early teens
20:09:23 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: if everybody followed those rules we'd all die out from inbreeding...
20:09:33 <boily> quintopia: finish laundry, nap, cook, eat, then disappear birthdaying a friend hth.
20:09:43 <boily> there'S a secret codeword?
20:10:04 <boily> fungot: remember chariots hth
20:10:04 <fungot> boily: oklotalk is just one conditional statement spread over two lines, one can use bfm without any macros/ syntax, what would be a problem in an earlier era, we'd say " evoli makes google eyes at riastradh"
20:10:27 <boily> quintopia: are you writing like there's no tomorrow up until late at night?
20:10:34 <boily> aaaaah! this kind of codeword.
20:10:59 <quintopia> i'm writing for one hour and then cleaning for one hour and then...gaming?
20:11:16 <quintopia> was going to invite you to game but you appear to be busy hth
20:11:36 <quintopia> maybe i'll go out and do board gaming
20:12:07 <quintopia> or stay in and finish season 2 of the almighty johnsons
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20:12:37 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
20:12:44 <gamemanj> ^def codeword bf ++++++++[>++++>++++++++++<<-]++++++++++>>---><[->+>+<<]>----------.+++++.-------.+++++++++++++++++.---------.++++++.+++++.-.<<<.>>>
20:12:47 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( What do actual Norwegians think of The Almighty Johnsons? )
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20:13:27 <gamemanj> ^def codeword bf ++++++++[>++++>++++++++++<<-]++++++++++>>---><[->+>+<<]>+++++++.-----.--.------------.+++++++++++++++++++.-----.----------.++++++++++++++.<<<.>>>
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20:14:03 <hppavilion[1]> ^def codeword bf -[--->+<]>-.-----.--.------------.>-[--->+<]>-.-----.+[-->+<]>+++++.-[-->+++<]>+.--.>-[--->+<]>---..+++++++.>-[------->+<]>.+++++.-------.+[->++++<]>.+[->++<]>+.+++++.-------.>-[--->+<]>---.---------.++++++.+++++.-.
20:14:08 <fungot> TOMATO-CARRYING CHARIOTS
20:14:27 <gamemanj> so I'm not the only one with a BF string generator, though the one hppavilion[1] uses seems more... optimized?
20:14:52 <gamemanj> though I'm a bit confused as to what on earth it's doing
20:15:14 <gamemanj> no, it's using some pretty obvious patterns
20:15:29 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Yeah, an evolutionary algorithm that uses patterns.
20:15:35 <gamemanj> like: -[--->+<] which only works in an 8-bit wrapping environment
20:15:41 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: It detects certain obvious patterns because they're obvious
20:16:19 <quintopia> !bf-txtgen what was this command called again
20:17:36 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, ++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++++++++>+++++++<<<-]>++++>+>+>,[[<.>-]<<<.>.>++.--<++.-->>,]
20:18:30 <hppavilion[1]> ^def badbftxtgen bf ++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++++++++>+++++++<<<-]>++++>+>+>,[[<.>-]<<<.>.>++.--<++.-->>,]
20:18:35 <quintopia> seems straightforward enough. you just have to read in a character, then output a >, n +s and a .
20:18:46 <fungot> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ...
20:19:03 <quintopia> that'd be shorter with a > instead of a [-]
20:19:30 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: But OTOH, this way it can handle unbounded input in a bounded environment
20:20:33 <hppavilion[1]> If #esoteric had an official LISP, what commands would it have?
20:20:55 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: i have yet to meet one
20:21:34 <quintopia> our lisp would have car, cdr, eval, print, die, kick, and destroy-earth
20:22:28 <hppavilion[1]> (all (imagine (! countries)) (imagine (! (any (thingtofor kill) (thingtofor die))) (imagine (! religion)))
20:24:31 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: sure. throw in "and" "or" and "not" i guess
20:25:12 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Wait, are there any functionally-complete ternary operators?
20:25:51 <quintopia> SUBLEQ is turing-complete when it can take unbounded addresses
20:26:15 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I mean like nand is functionally-complete
20:27:29 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: so...you want some three argument logic unit that can be used to be arbitrary circuits?
20:27:55 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Perhaps with multiple outputs, if preferred
20:28:20 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I want something that uses all 3 arguments
20:28:46 <hppavilion[1]> Speaking of which, is there a nice notation for writing boolean-like logic where the gates might have multiple outputs?
20:29:06 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I take it that, if someone asks you to express pi as a fraction, you say pi/1?
20:30:00 <quintopia> depends. do they specify that it must be a ratio of integers? but what you're asking is more like "can you express five as a fraction?" and getting upset at me answer "5/1?"
20:31:20 <quintopia> what is bajillion? is this some tv show or podcast/
20:33:13 <quintopia> so boily disappeared without saying a word. i will not do this
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20:38:32 <gamemanj> I have a "really slightly optimized" BF from text generator in BF, but it doesn't like input chars under 45 due to some performance optimizations.
20:39:10 <gamemanj> Well, I say performance optimizations...
20:42:32 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I think you predated Thoof. Have I told you about it?
20:43:21 <boily> quintopia: there was a clothesline involved hth
20:43:28 <gamemanj> also, depending on which network you're looking at, which channel, etcetc...
20:43:36 <boily> I am now disappearing by saying a word: fnord!
20:43:38 <gamemanj> "predated" is such a silly word
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20:45:10 <gamemanj> Why does it matter if I predate it...?
20:46:06 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Because you definitely wouldn't have been online when I was designing it, and thus wouldn't have heard of it
20:46:15 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I'm currently designing a version to put in an IRC bot
20:48:21 <gamemanj> I prefer the illusion that I never pre-dated or post-dated anything, and simply drop in on occasion.
20:49:17 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: But basically, Thoof was a proof assistant where you prove things by executing s/abc/xyz/ on strings
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20:50:00 <gamemanj> ...I'm confused. First off, is this supposed to be a mathematical proof assistant, or just madness...?
20:50:40 <gamemanj> A successful confusion has been caused.
20:50:52 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: You have to declare axioms first (known strings and substitutions)
20:51:04 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Then you set the strings and execute substitutions on them (with various strategies)
20:51:32 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: You can't use any substitutions or strings that are not either proved in prior or declared as axioms
20:51:40 <gamemanj> ^def gmj-maybe-improved-bf-txt bf ++++++++++[->>+++++++++<<]>>[--<++<+>>]<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]<+++<+<--.........++>.<.+++++++++++++++++.-------------------.....+++++++++++++++++.--------------->>.>,[<<<[->>>->+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<<<.<.>>.<<+++++++++++++++++.----------------->.<.+++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++++++++..-------------------.+++++++++++++++++.--------------->>.<<+++++++++++++++++.-------
20:51:41 <gamemanj> ---------->.<.+++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++++++++.----------------->>.<<+++++++++++++++..--------------->>>[-<<<--.++>>>]<<<+.->>>,]
20:52:34 <gamemanj> Note that it was not split into two messages before I pressed "enter"
20:53:59 <Melvar> IRC has a line length limit, and good clients autosplit (rather than letting it be truncated).
20:54:37 <gamemanj> Remember: If a client macerates your text, it's a good client!
20:55:43 <Melvar> Would you prefer part of the text get dropped for everyone but yourself, and you were unable to notice?
20:56:12 <gamemanj> no, I'd prefer the server notified me
20:56:31 <gamemanj> ...then again, some servers might do that using a KILL
20:57:19 <gamemanj> True, it would just be a connection close
20:58:16 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: The length limit wouldn't result in you being disconnected unless it was a REALLY long overflow.
20:58:36 <Melvar> I.e. you want a protocol change rather than a preferred client behavior.
20:59:05 <gamemanj> hmm, true, it would be a protocol change... hmm...
21:00:08 <gamemanj> one quick lookup and... it's already been done, some random sheet of numerics says 419 is ERR_LENGTHTRUNCATED on aircd
21:02:45 <gamemanj> Maybe a better solution would be for fungot to allow multi-line command definitions?
21:02:46 <fungot> gamemanj: there are three different index files, at least for now... had to kill them with flamethrowers and radiation. *cough*
21:03:40 <gamemanj> other question: why on earth was "flamethrowers and radiation" even a vaguely possible output
21:04:08 <gamemanj> did someone actually say "flamethrowers and radiation"???
21:04:12 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: am i missing something
21:04:20 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: you'll need a 32-bit interp" you meant " perfect binary tree" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord
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21:05:48 <gamemanj> Ok, fizzie, the truth please: Did you secretly add in the sentence in which fungot was mentioned as an extra parameter, and then ran it through databases until it was capable of coherent response?
21:06:35 <fizzie> And the command was !bf_txtgen, but it's an EgoBot command, and therefore probably not available right now.
21:06:50 <gamemanj> "I admit nothing" (read: fizzie did it)
21:07:48 <fizzie> And there's a way for fungot to run programs longer than fit in a single line, it's just very inconvenient.
21:07:48 <fungot> fizzie: although i fell its kinda is misnamed, since ( error symbol) won't quite do that?
21:08:10 <fizzie> ^str 0 set ++++++++++[->>+++++++++<<]>>[--<++<+>>]<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]<+++<+<--.........++>.<.+++++++++++++++++.-------------------.....+++++++++++++++++.--------------->>.>,[<<<[->>>->+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<<<.<.>>.<<+++++++++++++++++.----------------->.<.+++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++++++++..-------------------.+++++++++++++++++.--------------->>.<<+++++++++++++++++.-------
21:08:10 <fungot> Set: ++++++++++[->>+++++++++<<]>>[--<++<+>>]<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]<+++<+<--.........++>.<.+++++++++++++++++.-------------------.....+++++++++++++++++.--------------->>.>,[<<<[->>>->+<<<<]>>>>[-<<<<+>>>>]<<<.<.>>.<<+++++++++++++++++.----------------->.<.+++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++++++++..-------------------.+++++++++++++++++.--------------->>.<<+++++++++++++++++.-------
21:08:21 <gamemanj> since that bot really likes to creep me out...
21:08:23 <fizzie> ^str 0 add ---------->.<.+++++++++++++++.-----------------.+++++++++++++++++++.----------------->>.<<+++++++++++++++..--------------->>>[-<<<--.++>>>]<<<+.->>>,]
21:08:30 <fizzie> And, uh, how did it go again?
21:08:33 <gamemanj> I'll just be taking a "vacation"
21:09:05 <fizzie> I wonder if that was actually def-only.
21:09:11 <fungot> +10[->2+9<2]>2[-2<+2<+>2]<[->+>+<2]>2[-<2+>2]<+3<+<-2.........+2>.<.+17.-19.....+17.-15>2.>,[<3[->3->+<4]>4[-<4+>4]<3.<.>2.<2+17.-17>.<.+15.-17.+19..-19.+17.-15>2.<2+17.-17>.<.+15.-17.+19.-17>2.<2+15..-15>3[-<3-2.+2>3]<3+.->3,]
21:09:18 <fungot> +++++++++[->+++++<][-]>[-<+>>+<]>[-<+>]<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:09:18 <fungot> +++++++++[->+++++<][-]>[-<+>>+<]>[-<+>]<<++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>[-<+>>+<]>[-<+>]<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>[-<+>>+<]>[-<+>]<<++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>[-<+>>+<]>[-<+>]<<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ...
21:09:37 <fizzie> Yeah, the output length limit is a bit short.
21:11:21 <lifthrasiir> https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/commit/c1a1968 *phew*
21:11:43 <lifthrasiir> ancient hangul jamos are too much to do them incremently
21:11:49 <quintopia> fizzie: can you make it output to a stored string as well? and print arbitrary indices of that string?
21:12:11 <fizzie> I don't think I can be bothered.
21:12:11 <lifthrasiir> but I *did* manage to design all the initial jamos (the largest, since there are 6 sets to cover)
21:12:13 <gamemanj> this is some sort of text-based bitmap font format, am I wrong?
21:12:42 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: right. I've designed it since some point in 2015
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21:13:37 <lifthrasiir> I've added lots of latin, greek, cyrillic and some armenian, then turned to hangul and got stuck for some months (also because of the work)
21:15:19 <gamemanj> It seems the glyphs are either 8-wide or 16-wide, like Unifont.
21:15:30 <gamemanj> At least, if I'm interpreting sample.png correctly...
21:15:55 <fizzie> gamemanj: I think there are other widths as well.
21:16:17 <fizzie> I was mostly looking at U+2160 here.
21:16:17 <gamemanj> Everything looks so... aligned.
21:16:27 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: mainly 8 or 16, but there are some glyphs with 8n (n>2) width
21:16:31 <fizzie> Those roman numerals are pretty wide.
21:16:47 <lifthrasiir> anyway, probably 8n only (but I'm not sure how to deal with arabic and so on)
21:17:03 <gamemanj> I thought they were just lots of single chars
21:17:23 <gamemanj> missing useful things, like "character borders"
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21:17:55 <lifthrasiir> there is a live page that you can actually test it
21:19:19 <gamemanj> "Unison defines a subpixel shape"?
21:20:19 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: in short, each pixel has a subpixel shape plus a binary pixel which will be used in the hinting (not yet, but in the future)
21:20:32 <lifthrasiir> so the font can be used as both a bitmap font and a (quirky) vector font
21:21:47 <lifthrasiir> I've also built my own font development system based on the textual files
21:24:36 <lifthrasiir> algorithmic descriptions made things a lot easier for some cases
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21:27:38 <Melvar> lifthrasiir: Is that what the different colors indicate?
21:28:23 <lifthrasiir> Melvar: different parts of glyphs. mainly for the debugging
21:31:01 <gamemanj> There is one important question...
21:31:40 * gamemanj hopes that he did actually find the right one
21:32:05 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: YES. https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample#u2468
21:36:28 <lifthrasiir> hmm, should I pay attention to color fonts...
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21:37:33 <gamemanj> ...ok, why is it people really like the multiocular O... why does an O need eyes, anyway?
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21:38:16 <int-e> it's one of the scariest Unicode symbols out there
21:39:34 <int-e> I mean it's creepy to be stared at with one eye Ꙩ and slightly less creepy to be stared at with two Ꙭ, but it's outright scary to be stared at, depending on the font, by 7 or 10 ꙮ.
21:39:46 <int-e> (fwiw, those are all small boxes here :P)
21:40:04 <Melvar> gamemanj: Because it was used to write a word meaning “many-eyed”.
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21:40:22 <gamemanj> maybe it exists as a logo of Unicode... "Don't mess with us. We're typographic and linguistic experts... we will be watching from your screen."
21:42:36 <int-e> also we don't like the symbol nearly as much as we could... it's not in the tꙮpic, for example.
21:43:02 <b_jonas> anyway, good evening to all
21:43:22 <HackEgo> krf/KRF is the Norwegian Christian Democratic Party.
21:48:23 <quintopia> int-e: all of your ocular o's appear just fine in konsole :)
21:51:22 <zzo38> Maybe because they didn't know how many eyes seraphim have so they had to guess
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21:55:03 <int-e> quintopia: hmm I guess xterm doesn't do any font substitution. but it does support the symbols if they're present in the selected font.
21:56:35 <zzo38> It is correct; xterm just use whatever is present in the selected font. Some symbols are not supported at all though, such as DEC Technical and downloadable fonts.
21:56:44 <quintopia> zzo38: possibly seraphim only have one eye, but only 7 of them can dance on the head of a pin
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21:58:25 <zzo38> I wanted to make up my own terminal emulator to be better than the existing one including xterm, would also require to design the new font too.
21:58:56 <quintopia> can't you just support an existing more complete font. surely there's a font out there that has all your goals in mind as well
21:59:52 <zzo38> I partially wrote a document of UTCE, once is completed the existing "fixed" font can be partially automatically converted to UTCE, and then the characters which are not included in the existing font, are the wrong width, or are not in Unicode at all, can be added on manually.
22:00:20 -!- jaboja has joined.
22:00:20 <zzo38> Tables for the ISO 2022 mapping can then be added on, and then it can be in use.
22:00:35 <quintopia> that seems efficient. though it seems strange to me that there could be anything you would need that ISN'T already in unicode
22:01:13 <pikhq> There *are* some encodings with characters that aren't in Unicode.
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22:01:34 <pikhq> Arguably this is a bug in Unicode, but still. Totally the case.
22:01:44 <zzo38> I am guessing there is something like 200 such characters
22:02:04 <zzo38> Unicode is bad for terminal emulation anyways
22:02:35 <pikhq> Well, more accurately complex text layout languages are bad for terminal emulation.
22:02:50 <pikhq> Arabic is hard in a terminal, and it doesn't matter what encoding you use.
22:03:01 <zzo38> Yes, that is true too.
22:04:07 <b_jonas> That's because arabic only has forms of letter ideal for brush calligraphy, no proper printed block form for chiseling into stone.
22:04:13 <quintopia> let's force all arabs to adopt more reasonable orthography
22:04:18 <b_jonas> They should invent a carvable script.
22:04:28 <zzo38> quintopia: No that is not the correct solution
22:04:40 <b_jonas> Mind you, carvable isn't enough:
22:05:06 <int-e> quintopia: we can't even get the britains and the US americans speak the same language
22:05:39 <quintopia> int-e: at least both use orthography which is easily represented in terminals
22:05:49 <zzo38> Complex script such as Arabic is OK for typography (not for terminal emulation though), but the details about composing the complex scripts does not belong in the character set and belongs in the font metric file instead.
22:05:54 <b_jonas> old hungarian runes are completely carveable in wood, that's what it was originally used for, it has almost no horizontal lines so that the wood doesn't split; but it has tons of ligatures, so it's totally unsuitable for a terminal, and I don't think anyone has a computer font engine that can properly produce all the ligatures.
22:06:18 <b_jonas> Unlike latin letters and futhark runes, old hungarian runes weren't carved to _stone_.
22:06:25 <int-e> quintopia: I think you're confusing cause and effect there to some extent
22:07:19 <quintopia> int-e: if you're saying that the use of terminals has forced language to adapt to have more easily terminalized orthography, then you are undermining the thrust of your earlier argument
22:07:42 <b_jonas> The ligatures (and shittons of dropped letters, so that they can carve it with fewer stroke) make realistic old hungarian runes to have a very different look from these no-ligature present day uses of old hungarian runes.
22:07:52 <quintopia> "how do we force all arabs to adopt more terminalizable orthography?" "make them all use terminals and let them figure it out"
22:08:16 <b_jonas> The contemporary fake decorative uses of old hungarian runes look very simlar to the contemporary decorative uses of futhark runes and cirth runes.
22:08:55 <b_jonas> quintopia: well, with terminals you'll have not only the problem of block printing, but also of right to left writing.
22:09:00 <zzo38> Make the format of the font metric file sufficient that you can define Hungarian runes.
22:09:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, you'd either need a fancier font engine for that, or a HUGE font with tons of ligatures pre-generated
22:10:03 <b_jonas> and to pre-generate the ligature, you would probably need a fancy font engine
22:10:11 <b_jonas> because you wouldn't draw them by hand
22:10:35 <b_jonas> The case is sort of similar to hangul syllables.
22:10:37 <pikhq> zzo38: FWIW the rules for composing complex scripts usually *are* in the fonts, not the renderer.
22:10:40 <pikhq> So there's at least that.
22:11:17 <b_jonas> pikhq: it's... complicated, divided between the font and the engine
22:11:27 <pikhq> Of course it can't be that simple.
22:11:29 <int-e> quintopia: I guess it boils down to this... what would the arabic analogue of movable types be?
22:11:41 <pikhq> Wood block printing, probably.
22:11:58 <b_jonas> But probably nobody is interested enough in old hungarian runes to make it worth for him to pay for the development of such an engine.
22:12:02 <pikhq> Much like with the Sinosphere.
22:12:33 <pikhq> (you can *do* movable type with Chinese characters, but wood block printing was the way it was done for a long time)
22:12:52 <b_jonas> int-e: do you mean like lead types?
22:13:19 <zzo38> Wikipedia does not have a lot of information about ligatures in Hungarian runes.
22:13:32 <b_jonas> didn't that go out of fashion now when high quality computerized typesetting is possible and easier than lead types?
22:13:48 <int-e> (if you can't make it from small individual components, making a terminal-as-we-know-it for it will be hard)
22:13:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think commons has enough pictures to illustrate it
22:14:07 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm tracing history.
22:14:10 <b_jonas> pictures of authentic old text that is
22:14:27 <b_jonas> int-e: I mean pictures of actual old use of them
22:14:39 <b_jonas> not just of the no-ligatures often misused current ones
22:15:00 <b_jonas> (the ones where they sometimes don't even know how letters work and write an s rune followed by a z rune instead of an sz rune
22:15:09 <b_jonas> (that was the worst abuse I've seen)
22:15:40 <quintopia> weird to be blinded by a bright sun with this much rain coming down
22:15:46 <b_jonas> writing old hungarian runes left to right also reveals modern use, but that one is actually a GOOD thing
22:16:04 <b_jonas> even if right to left is traditional, the runes were designed to be flipped horizontally, and often are for ligatures
22:16:18 <b_jonas> so you can write it left to right or as a boustrophedon and get something that looks good
22:17:26 <quintopia> why did i get a laptop with a glossy screen
22:17:51 <int-e> you like to know what's going on behind you?
22:18:31 <quintopia> no. mainly because they don't seem to make matte touchscreens
22:18:58 <b_jonas> Oh, the the anglo-saxon nationalists that write everything in English say that they shouldn't be called runes, but I say fuck them, "runes" is a generic word that's applicable not only to futhark, but to any script you carve, including old hungarian runes, cirth, braille (any variant), moon, ogham, etc.
22:19:01 <int-e> (well, that makes sense... but why would anyone want a laptop with a touch screen... oh well)
22:19:30 <b_jonas> So on the internet you find all sorts of euphemisms for "old hungarian runes" just to avoid the word "runes"
22:19:59 * int-e would imagine that a matte touch screen would soon develop glossy parts where it's touched most frequently.
22:21:19 <quintopia> int-e: it's a convertible. turns into a tablet.
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22:23:29 <b_jonas> Ok, I take that back. I was wrong. Commons doesn't have many pictures of old uses of old hungarian runes.
22:24:19 <zzo38> UTCE is design only for terminals and not for typesetting, therefore there is no font metric file; the rules are in the rendering engine and there is only one rule: (for 16-bit strings) If the high-bit is set then it is double-wide otherwise single-wide. (for 8-bit strings) Bytes in range 0 to 31 take up no space; other bytes take up a single cell of space.
22:25:10 <zzo38> I think it is good, isn't it?
22:27:06 <zzo38> Converting between 8-bit and 16-bit format is also simple.
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22:30:12 <HackEgo> [U+2468 CIRCLED DIGIT NINE]
22:39:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46890&oldid=46889 * H3LL * (+3) /* Overview */
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23:06:57 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: because the terminal treats that charatcer as halfwidth and a circled number won't fit
23:08:45 <\oren\> although, supposedl the next version of unicdoe will fix the width of a lot of characters
23:08:49 <int-e> (red button in hppavilion[1]'s link)
23:09:15 <zzo38> No, just using UTCE.
23:09:20 <\oren\> so maybe I should just treat it as fullwidth
23:10:20 <zzo38> Some widths in UTCE are different from Unicode, and in some cases UTCE has both versions.
23:12:04 <int-e> Am I right in assuming that UTCE does not, in fact, exist?
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23:26:19 <fizzie> int-e: There's a Global Strategic Maple Syrup Reserve.
23:26:55 <fizzie> int-e: A thousand tonnes of maple syrup were once stolen from the strategic reserve. http://loweringthebar.net/2012/09/maple-syrup-theft.html
23:27:23 <int-e> fizzie: I've heard of it... it's grand.
23:28:04 <int-e> Great moment... what does one do with 1000 tons of maple syrup... did Coca Cola taste different for a while after that, perhaps?
23:28:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46893&oldid=46890 * H3LL * (-1)
23:28:43 <fizzie> The Wikipedia "Federation of Quebec Maple Syrup Producers" article says they managed to track two thirds of it.
23:28:57 <fizzie> "Over the next three months, police had further success in locating portions of the stolen syrup, but were still unsure of the final disposition of about one third of it. Much of it had apparently been sold to buyers who were unaware of its origins and who were led to believe it had been produced in neighbouring New Brunswick."
23:30:10 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:31:21 <int-e> oh almost time to go to bed
23:31:38 <int-e> (I mean, hi oerjan)
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23:45:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46895&oldid=46893 * H3LL * (+67) /* Input and Output */
23:49:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46896&oldid=46895 * H3LL * (+238) /* Example programs */
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23:56:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: If anyone has the key to the matrix of solidity, please hand it in to Neo at the front desk | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Mexico City (not Tenoch.
23:57:54 -!- oerjan has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Mexico City (not Tenochtitlan).