←2016-03 2016-04 2016-05→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:00:04 <rdococ> I tried making a Sonic game in it but it was too slow
00:00:08 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: A JS-ic interpreter for BASIC?
00:00:16 <rdococ> idk how it worked
00:00:18 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: They're "markov sequences" all right, though it's not quite the most common implementation, where you have a bunch of text and then jump around; instead, it's just generating word by word from a variable-length n-gram model trained with https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN and stored in a I-think-it's-nifty-but-for-some-reason-haven't-much-seen-it-around data structure that I call ...
00:00:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I've been working to make a browser
00:00:22 <rdococ> but it was called Quite Basic
00:00:24 <fizzie> ... a reverse-context tree for lack of a better name.
00:00:26 <fizzie> It's like a word trie except so that if your model has, say, information about the contexts "baz bar foo", "quux bar foo" and "zuul foo", the trie has the form (foo (bar (baz [..]) (quux [..])) (zuul [...])).
00:00:29 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: this is of course inspired by "halt and catch fire", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire
00:00:30 <fizzie> The idea being that it's easy to synthesize from -- you just descend the tree while reading backwards from the end of the text you've generated so far, and once you no longer find a leaf for the "next" (previous) word, you've arrived at the longest prefix in the variKN model, and can read its list of frequencies for following words.
00:00:35 <fizzie> (For extra credit, also account for backoff weights by having a probability for going back up one level.)
00:01:07 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Ah, yes
00:01:39 <rdococ> If I had to choose a few esoteric assembly instructions, they would be, um
00:01:48 <fizzie> For some reason most things dealing with n-gram models I've seen have tended to put things in a trie, yes, but the "right way around". Which I guess is just fine for a fixed-length model, but much less convenient for a variable-length one.
00:01:53 <rdococ> idk
00:02:10 <rdococ> I'm in the mood to talk about numbers right now
00:02:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Have you heard of the number @?
00:02:32 <rdococ> the number what?
00:02:41 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The number @
00:02:44 <rdococ> nope
00:02:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: |@|=-1
00:02:49 <rdococ> ...
00:02:51 <rdococ> interesting
00:02:53 <hppavilion[1]> |n@|=-n
00:02:56 <rdococ> wow
00:03:13 <fizzie> And I had a lot of fun writing the Funge code. It's a language that's generally much easier to write than read.
00:03:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:03:41 <rdococ> hmm
00:03:43 <rdococ> imagine
00:03:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Go on
00:03:57 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Something that randomly chooses a register, and start executing the instruction at the specified address. An instruction that moves memory from a specified location to a random location somewhere else. An instruction that reads the specified memory address, and multiplies it by a random prime number. Other useless things.
00:03:59 <hppavilion[1]> # = -i@
00:04:01 <rdococ> @ * @?
00:04:11 <rdococ> @ * @ = 1?
00:04:14 <rdococ> or different
00:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Undefined, as of yet
00:04:22 <rdococ> hmm
00:04:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No, but j^2 = 1
00:04:25 <hppavilion[1]> But j != 1
00:04:30 <rdococ> crazy
00:04:31 <hppavilion[1]> And k^2 = 0
00:04:35 <hppavilion[1]> But k != 0
00:04:42 <zgrep> |@*@| = 1?
00:04:43 <hppavilion[1]> That's the 2D real algebras
00:04:44 <rdococ> we can take any condition and turn it into a number...
00:04:47 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Probably not
00:04:50 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Ask Sgeo__
00:04:59 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Why not?
00:05:10 <rdococ> sqrt(@)?
00:05:12 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Because @ isn't based on squaring, it's based on absing
00:05:18 <rdococ> |-@|?
00:05:22 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: 1
00:05:32 <rdococ> crazy
00:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: |-@|=1
00:05:45 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Not that crazy; I already said |n@| = -n
00:05:46 <rdococ> 3@ / 2@ = ???
00:05:49 <rdococ> 3/2?
00:05:54 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, definitely
00:05:57 <rdococ> true
00:05:59 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Sgeo__ invented @
00:06:05 <rdococ> now I want to invent one
00:06:09 <shachaf> `? @
00:06:19 <HackEgo> ​@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
00:06:19 <shachaf> p. sure it wasn't Sgeo__ who invented @
00:06:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Just don't make it absy, make it something new
00:06:21 <rdococ> $
00:06:28 <rdococ> $ * 2 = 0.5
00:06:32 <rdococ> $ * x = 1/x
00:06:34 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|@| = -1
00:06:43 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
00:06:45 <rdococ> but that means $ = 1...
00:06:48 <rdococ> huh
00:06:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's actually... hm...
00:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I don't see how that behaves like numbers
00:07:18 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It has to behave reasonably like a number, but not quite, or else it's no fun
00:07:27 <rdococ> x$ = x/$ but $ =/= 1
00:07:37 <rdococ> true
00:07:44 <rdococ> what other numbers...
00:07:50 <rdococ> I mean functions
00:07:51 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: @ is numeric, as are i, j, and k
00:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You can do the reverse of @'s creation process to
00:08:04 <hppavilion[1]> o
00:08:05 * zgrep still doesn't see why |
00:08:06 <rdococ> |$| = i
00:08:09 * zgrep still doesn't see why |-@| = 1... :(
00:08:14 <rdococ> nah
00:08:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: $=-i@
00:08:20 <rdococ> hmm
00:08:44 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Because |n*@| = -n, -@ = -1*a, and -(-1) = 1
00:08:52 <zgrep> Oh, wow. Heh.
00:08:59 <rdococ> hmmm
00:09:07 <rdococ> $ = cube root (-1)
00:09:10 <rdococ> nah
00:09:17 <rdococ> $ = fourth root (-1)
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00:09:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's a normal complex number
00:09:35 <rdococ> hmm
00:09:48 <boily> explore quaternions.
00:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: @ was made by taking an unsatisfiable expression and making a new number that satisfies it. The reverse is taking an expression with no solution and making a solution
00:10:02 <zgrep> |@*@| = -@?
00:10:06 <rdococ> should I do the inverse/
00:10:08 <rdococ> ?*
00:10:08 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:10:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: η is the "Notta Constant"
00:10:16 <rdococ> or the one you did?
00:10:22 <rdococ> what's the notta constant?
00:10:28 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: No, unless you have a reason
00:10:38 <rdococ> hmm
00:10:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: xη = x/0
00:10:51 <rdococ> so basically infinity
00:10:59 <rdococ> hmm
00:11:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No, not infinity
00:11:03 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: |n*@| = -n, so |@*@| = -@... What'd I do wrong? :P
00:11:08 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's a new plane
00:11:13 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Ah, good point
00:11:14 <rdococ> a new plane? oh yeah
00:11:19 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: NOW you're onto something
00:11:22 <hppavilion[1]> :)
00:11:26 <rdococ> hmmm
00:11:45 <rdococ> so I will make up an unsatisfiable expression
00:11:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You can also invent completely baffling things that look like numbers at first, but aren't quite
00:11:51 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Like the trigns
00:11:54 <rdococ> trigns?
00:11:58 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Make sure the expression is fairly simple
00:12:18 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's like the bigns, AKA the reals. I'll leave you to extrapolate.
00:12:34 <rdococ> so it's a third sign?
00:12:43 <rdococ> plus, negative and trign?
00:12:47 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, or more accurately, 2 new signs that replace -
00:12:53 <rdococ> oh, interesting
00:12:57 <rdococ> what are those signs called?
00:13:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: $ ~ and &
00:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> And they have rules that I forgot
00:13:14 <rdococ> hmm
00:13:15 <rdococ> okay
00:13:22 <rdococ> interesting
00:13:41 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: |n|^2 ≠ |n^2|, right?
00:13:45 <rdococ> 0^x = 1
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00:13:55 <rdococ> my new number would be %, and 0^% = 1
00:13:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Here's one for you. 0/nρ = n
00:14:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Oh, that works too
00:14:03 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Look into that
00:14:05 <zgrep> rdococ: Isn't that 0?
00:14:09 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: What's the general case
00:14:13 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: No, that's undefined
00:14:17 <rdococ> hppa: isn't that another infinity?
00:14:23 <rdococ> the p thing
00:14:28 <rdococ> wait
00:14:39 <rdococ> hmm
00:14:41 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Oh, heh. Good point.
00:14:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Though I have a nagging feeling that it's related to η
00:14:57 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Yep.
00:15:01 <rdococ> 0^% = 1, so
00:15:09 <rdococ> x^y% = ??
00:15:16 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: And |n|^2 usually is equal to |n^2|
00:15:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Obviously, 0^%n = n
00:15:39 <rdococ> okay
00:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You should probably give it a less mathematical name
00:15:46 <hppavilion[1]> Like "r"
00:15:50 <rdococ> lol r
00:15:56 <hppavilion[1]> Because @ works, but % is too mathy already
00:16:00 <rdococ> 0^rx = ??
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00:16:05 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: x
00:16:08 <rdococ> I was originally going for $ but way too mathy
00:16:10 <zgrep> |-n@| = -|n@|
00:16:16 <rdococ> I'll use r
00:16:27 <rdococ> x^ry = ?
00:16:29 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: I believe so. Let me chack the algebra
00:16:50 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: |n^2| ≠ |n|^2 if you've got an @ somewhere in there.
00:17:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The simplest solution is x^ry = y(x+1) = xy+y, but that's a bit strange
00:17:27 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: excellent
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00:17:44 <rdococ> how'd you get that solution?
00:17:50 <rdococ> oh
00:17:52 <rdococ> I get it
00:18:01 <zgrep> |@^2| = |@*@| = -@, but |@|^2 = 1. So |n^2| ≠ |n|^2, right?
00:18:10 <rdococ> you moved the y down like I moved the x down when I was doing 0^rx
00:18:27 <rdococ> it's interesting though
00:18:43 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's not very good (too functional, not numbery enough), but it's the best I can think of
00:18:56 <rdococ> hmm
00:19:00 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Apparently, yes! Good job!
00:19:01 <rdococ> let's think of a different simpler one then
00:19:04 <rdococ> what about
00:20:31 <zgrep> In fact, |ab| ≠ |a|*|b| when @'s involved.
00:20:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: x : x≠x
00:20:48 <rdococ> weird idea
00:20:59 <rdococ> does x<x-1 then?
00:21:10 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Maybe, who knows?
00:21:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I guess we shouldn't use ≠, we should use !<=
00:21:37 <rdococ> ԑ
00:21:45 <rdococ> ԑ =/= ԑ
00:21:47 <rdococ> nah
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00:21:50 <rdococ> looks like an infinitesimal
00:21:54 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: x : x≰x
00:22:02 <rdococ> so x>x?
00:22:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Precisely
00:22:15 <hppavilion[1]> Order-theoretical i
00:22:16 <rdococ> let's call it ᴓ
00:22:20 <rdococ> ᴓ>ᴓ
00:22:24 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: neoletters doesn't include that symbol
00:22:29 <rdococ> neoletters?
00:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode ᴓ
00:22:58 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Oh! My last name has that letter!
00:23:01 <hppavilion[1]> Kind of!
00:23:09 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Wait, it's a sideways version
00:23:12 <rdococ> but flipped horizontally
00:23:40 <rdococ> does ξ show up?
00:23:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes
00:23:54 <rdococ> so ξ > ξ
00:24:07 <rdococ> xξ > xξ?
00:24:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Obviously
00:24:26 <rdococ> what about xξ and yξ for different x and y?
00:25:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: How does that normally work again?
00:25:17 <rdococ> well, 3 > 2 and 2 < 3, and 3 = 3
00:25:29 <rdococ> does ξ = ξ + x for any particular x?
00:26:08 <rdococ> ξ > ξ, and 3ξ = 4ξ?
00:26:13 <rdococ> or 3ξ > 4ξ?
00:26:46 <zgrep> What is ξ, in this case?
00:26:55 <rdococ> ξ > ξ
00:27:05 <zgrep> Ahah. So then ξ < ξ as well.
00:27:19 <rdococ> nope, that rule was broken
00:27:24 <zgrep> How?
00:27:29 <rdococ> hppa's idea
00:27:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Don't blame me!
00:27:58 <rdococ> so does x < ξ for any x?
00:28:13 <zgrep> But if ξ > ξ... why isn't ξ < ξ?
00:28:21 <rdococ> ask hppa
00:28:26 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: This is me asking you.
00:28:27 <rdococ> my original idea was just ξ =/= ξ
00:28:56 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I think that was /my/ idea
00:29:09 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: rdococ: x : x≰x
00:29:13 <hppavilion[1]> <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: x : x≠x
00:29:14 <rdococ> really now
00:29:24 <hppavilion[1]> Need I break out the logs?
00:29:28 <rdococ> oh
00:29:37 <rdococ> but ξ > ξwas also yours
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00:31:06 <zgrep> |@*@*@| = -@*@... ||@*@*@|| = @, then?
00:31:23 <zgrep> Where that's [[@*@*@]] not, []@*@*@[]. :P
00:31:51 <boily> @@
00:32:01 <boily> @something
00:32:01 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
00:32:08 <boily> @1
00:32:08 <lambdabot> Say again?
00:32:11 <boily> @2
00:32:11 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:32:14 <boily> @@
00:32:22 <zgrep> @poke lambdabot
00:32:22 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: vote more
00:32:28 <zgrep> No, I don't want to vote more.
00:32:29 <boily> @botsnack
00:32:29 <lambdabot> :)
00:33:35 <zgrep> @|@| = -@... and |@*@| = -@... uh... :/
00:33:36 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "..."
00:34:19 <rdococ> Ω > n for any finite n, but Ω < infinity? so Ω is the largest finite number
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00:34:43 <boily> @(
00:34:44 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:34:46 <boily> @)
00:34:46 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:34:51 <boily> @[
00:34:51 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:34:54 <boily> @{
00:34:54 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:34:56 <boily> @`
00:34:56 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:35:00 <zgrep> So what's ∞ - Ω?
00:35:04 <rdococ> 1
00:35:11 <zgrep> Ω = ∞ - 1?
00:35:14 <rdococ> yes
00:35:15 <boily> so the lambdie answers to most about anything, except @. very peculiar.
00:35:28 <rdococ> v
00:35:36 <zgrep> boily: I'm assuming that @'s the prefix, whatever comes after that's considered the command. But just @ is ignored.
00:36:00 <rdococ> @
00:36:06 <zgrep> >
00:36:09 <zgrep> >
00:36:10 <lambdabot> <no location info>: not an expression: ‘’
00:36:11 <zgrep> @
00:36:21 <zgrep> Huh. "@ " doesn't trigger, but "> " does.
00:36:48 <rdococ> or what about
00:36:52 <rdococ> xΩ = 1/x
00:37:03 <boily> @@@
00:37:10 <boily> @@@@something
00:37:25 <zgrep> rdococ: Becomes weird, because then Ω = x^-2
00:37:27 <zgrep> :P
00:37:42 <zgrep> Though I guess it wouldn't be number, just an operation.
00:37:51 <rdococ> what about
00:37:52 <rdococ> four signs
00:38:05 * zgrep has no clue what zgrep is talking about...
00:38:07 <rdococ> +3 plus x2 = +6
00:38:35 <rdococ> +x + *y = x*y
00:39:08 <rdococ> and x + /y = x/y
00:39:39 <zgrep> This look simple: -0 [something] n = 0 [something] (-1 * n).
00:39:49 <zgrep> And useless.
00:39:57 <zgrep> rdococ: I... don't exactly get what that is...
00:40:13 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But then Ω > Ω
00:40:33 <rdococ> hppa: I was discussing another idea for a number
00:40:43 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I know
00:41:44 <rdococ> what about
00:41:45 <rdococ> Ʊ
00:42:47 <rdococ> um
00:43:09 <zgrep> How how did you get an upside-down omega. o.o
00:43:18 <rdococ> `unidecode Ʊ
00:43:27 <zgrep> upsilon. Neat! :D
00:43:59 <rdococ> what about Ψ
00:45:01 <zgrep> Technically, 🐈 could work as a great name too. It would also help annoy others who want to type about it. :P
00:45:04 <rdococ> xΨ + y(1-Ψ) = random probability of being either x or y
00:45:14 <rdococ> what symbol is that? it doesn't showu p on mine
00:45:20 <zgrep> It's a unicode cat.
00:45:46 <rdococ> wow
00:46:03 <rdococ> Ψ = random probability of being either 0 or 1
00:46:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Ψ: Doing any math involving Ψ comes at the expense of your sanity
00:46:16 <hppavilion[1]> Example problem:
00:46:19 <hppavilion[1]> x = Ψ+1
00:46:19 <rdococ> because it is random and unpredictable
00:46:23 <hppavilion[1]> x-1 = Ψ
00:46:29 <rdococ> Ψ+1 = random probability of being either 1 or 2
00:46:30 <hppavilion[1]> (algebra)
00:46:42 <hppavilion[1]> (def. of Ψ)
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00:47:06 <rdococ> doing any math with x comes at the expense of your sanity...
00:47:16 <rdococ> does that mean I have no sanity?
00:47:18 <zgrep> s/with x.*your //
00:47:31 <zgrep> Oh, wait, I cut out too many words. Damn it.
00:47:37 <zgrep> s/with x //
00:47:38 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Try ms/
00:47:38 <zgrep> There.
00:47:41 <rdococ> lol
00:47:51 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: ms/// is for fixing s/// expressions
00:48:21 <rdococ> ms/s/with x.*your///s/with x//
00:48:31 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Really? I usually either ignore the first regex I made, fix the resulting string as if the regexes were applied in a row, or I write a regex to fix the regex as a regular regex.
00:49:01 <rdococ> so Ψ = 0, no wait it's 1, 0, 1, 0 wait what is it
00:49:04 <zgrep> A regular regex expression! :P
00:49:05 <coppro> zgrep: new processors for an architecture may support additional features that their predecessors did not in a backwards-incompatible way, but when people make new architectures like ARM, they aren't backwards-compatile with other architectures
00:49:25 <zgrep> coppro: True.
00:49:35 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Yes, that's ms
00:49:39 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: That last one
00:49:56 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: It doesn't end up calling our evil Microsoft overlords?
00:49:57 <boily> are there irregular expressions?
00:50:06 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Nope
00:50:11 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Yes hth
00:50:14 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Oh, okay. Good.
00:50:23 <hppavilion[1]> boily: alksfdjaoisdf matches "walrus", but not "oerjan"
00:50:39 <zgrep> It does match "oerjans", though.
00:50:53 <zgrep> But not organs.
00:50:57 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Correct, but not "oerjan's"
00:51:19 <zgrep> Though alksfdjaoisde would match all of the above.
00:51:27 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Maybe we should work on that hacking game
00:52:16 <rdococ> do we have to
00:52:17 <fizzie> You can say "it's not rocket surgery" as an amusing combination of the two idioms, but saying "it's not brain science" works much less well.
00:52:40 <boily> @ask oerjan do you feel matched?
00:52:41 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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00:54:16 <rdococ> what about
00:54:17 <rdococ> x
00:54:29 <rdococ> χ
00:54:43 <zgrep> fizzie: Between a rock and a pickle? :P
00:55:03 <rdococ> 3χ / (χ/2) = 6
00:55:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, we have to :P
00:55:29 <zgrep> rdococ: Err... yes.
00:56:00 <rdococ> sure, all numbers satisfy that property, but
00:56:04 <rdococ> χ is a wildcard
00:56:12 <rdococ> χ is algebra without algebra
00:56:22 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: How is it a wildcard?
00:56:57 -!- tromp has quit.
00:56:59 <rdococ> hppa: it is meant for substitution
00:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Is it a number that satisfies all properties the reals satisfy (and no others), but that isn't a real?
00:57:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So it's just a variable?
00:57:13 <rdococ> not exactly
00:57:14 <zgrep> rdococ: You're trying to turn math into C macros? D:
00:57:17 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: These numbers are boring me.
00:57:25 <rdococ> ugh
00:57:25 <rdococ> fine
00:57:55 <hppavilion[1]> H4X1N470R-MP
00:58:03 <rdococ> Θx = sin(x)
00:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's a function again
00:58:49 <rdococ> hmm
00:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: There's a difference between weird numbers and weird function call syntax
00:59:12 <rdococ> 0^0 = μ
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01:00:51 <rdococ> what about that
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01:02:32 <rdococ> should I just google a random function, find a spot where the function doesn't havw a value, and make a spot there?
01:04:19 <rdococ> what about
01:04:29 <rdococ> Ϝ + 1 = Ϝ
01:04:41 <zgrep>
01:04:52 <rdococ> Ϝ < n for all n
01:05:03 <zgrep> -∞
01:05:19 <rdococ> uh
01:05:24 <zgrep> (although not completely, but almost)
01:05:51 <zgrep> I wonder if it's possible to somehow teach mathematica what @ is...
01:05:54 <zgrep> s/mathe/Mathe/
01:06:04 <rdococ> try it
01:06:07 <rdococ> |@| = -1
01:06:14 <rdococ> what about
01:06:52 <rdococ> β = x for any x
01:06:53 <zgrep> Expression cannot begin with "Abs[@]=-1". :P
01:07:16 <rdococ> try a different symbol like x
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01:08:08 <zgrep> I'm wondering, how would I begin to figure out what |@+k| would be...
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01:08:40 <rdococ> well, if |x@| = -x@
01:08:49 <rdococ> then |@+k| = -@ - k
01:09:01 <zgrep> Why?
01:09:06 <rdococ> no wait
01:09:28 <rdococ> |@+k| = |@| + |k| = -@ + |k|
01:09:37 <zgrep> |a| + |b| ≠ |a + b|
01:10:23 <myname> why is |@| = -@, i thought it'd be -1
01:10:35 <rdococ> oh yeah
01:10:36 <zgrep> |@| = -1 indeed.
01:10:38 <rdococ> |@| = -1
01:10:40 <zgrep> `tomfoolery @
01:10:43 <HackEgo> ​|@| = -1
01:10:48 <rdococ> |k@| = -k
01:11:05 <rdococ> |@+k| = -@ + k?
01:11:22 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n
01:11:26 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
01:11:46 <zgrep> `tomfoolery random number
01:11:55 <zgrep> `tomfoolery random
01:12:00 <rdococ> what is |-@|? is it |-1@| = 1?
01:12:03 <zgrep> Eh, I guess that's no longer there.
01:12:04 <rdococ> yeah
01:12:12 <zgrep> |-@| = 1
01:12:16 <HackEgo> 8901
01:12:17 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
01:12:27 <zgrep> Oh, it worked, just slowly.
01:12:34 <zgrep> `tomfoolery random number
01:12:36 <HackEgo> 6903
01:12:39 <zgrep> :D
01:12:52 <myname> so, what is |@+k|?
01:13:19 <rdococ> I would assume the k part gets absed
01:13:40 <rdococ> if I had my way, |-@| = -1
01:13:50 <rdococ> wait no
01:13:54 <rdococ> then @ = -1
01:13:56 <rdococ> no
01:14:03 <rdococ> not that
01:14:28 <rdococ> Ψ is far more interesting
01:14:37 <rdococ> `tomfoolery random number
01:14:40 <HackEgo> 17204
01:14:50 <rdococ> that's Ψ*100000
01:15:09 <rdococ> no wait
01:15:09 <zgrep> `cat tmflry/random number
01:15:10 <rdococ> it's not
01:15:11 <HackEgo> echo $RANDOM
01:15:33 <rdococ> uh
01:15:34 <rdococ> ugh
01:16:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I'm back
01:16:32 <hppavilion[1]> myname: |@+k|? = 19
01:16:39 <rdococ> uh?
01:16:39 <hppavilion[1]> s/19/42/
01:16:48 <rdococ> 42
01:16:50 <myname> that would make @ pretty pointless
01:17:00 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Heheh.
01:17:14 <zgrep> Err... how did you mistype 42 as 19?
01:17:16 <rdococ> it already is useless
01:17:19 <hppavilion[1]> myname: No, it makes ? pretty pointless
01:17:19 <rdococ> sorta
01:17:20 <rdococ> idk
01:17:21 <hppavilion[1]> n? = 42
01:17:26 <zgrep> :D
01:17:30 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: I changed my mind
01:17:36 <zgrep> "The answer to life, the universe, and everything"? = 42 :P
01:17:44 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Exactly
01:17:57 <hppavilion[1]> (?) :: a -> Int
01:18:35 <myname> that's const
01:18:43 <zgrep> (?) (+5) (-5) = 42?
01:18:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: When you said "Ψ is far more interesting", what does Ψ equal?
01:18:55 <rdococ> I did?
01:18:57 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It's an example of a const
01:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: you did
01:19:22 <rdococ> Ψ = a superposition of 0 and 1
01:19:37 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: A superposition? Are you sure it isn't just 0 or 1 at random?
01:19:45 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: OOH! OOH! QUANTUM MATH!
01:19:47 <rdococ> okay it's 0 or 1 at random
01:19:52 <rdococ> or superposition
01:19:59 <rdococ> Ψ = 0 or 1
01:20:00 <zgrep> |@|*|@| = 1... |@*@| = -@. <-- Why does this have to ruin everything. :(
01:20:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: math : Computer math :: Quantum math : Quantum computer math
01:20:21 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: It doesn't, it just breaks one property
01:20:22 <rdococ> omg
01:20:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: :)
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01:20:34 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: But it ruins ease of use. :P
01:20:43 <rdococ> zgrep: you made mathematica learn @?!!!
01:20:44 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Welcome to #esoteric
01:20:49 <myname> zgrep: because @ is atupid
01:20:55 <zgrep> I feel welcome here.
01:20:58 <hppavilion[1]> myname is going to hell
01:21:02 <zgrep> myname: It's not tupid? Okay.
01:21:11 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: You are, but myname isn't any more
01:21:14 <rdococ> no, it's atupid
01:21:19 <myname> it breaks even Z
01:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Making it not tupid
01:21:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: a- is a prefix for "not"
01:21:40 <rdococ> hppa: it is xtupid for any x
01:21:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Type my full nick, please
01:22:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I don't get alerted if you don't
01:22:05 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Use tab-complete
01:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> myname: How does it break Z?
01:22:31 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: k
01:22:32 <myname> see zgrep's example
01:22:57 <myname> the existence of @ would make 1 = -1
01:23:18 <zgrep> "hppa" makes me want to pronounce it "хпавилион". :P
01:23:18 <rdococ> really?
01:23:24 <myname> which makes 2 equal to either 2, -2 or 0
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01:23:40 <rdococ> x = -x and x =/= 0
01:23:51 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: β looked good
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01:24:43 <rdococ> remind me what it was
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01:25:17 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Nevermind, β is stupid
01:25:22 <hppavilion[1]> a=β, b=β, a!=b
01:25:43 <myname> hppavilion[1]: but 1 = -1 is fine?
01:25:58 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Where is 1 = -1?
01:25:59 <zgrep> myname: I'm assuming that they consider |a|*|b| ≠ |a*b| to be fine.
01:26:06 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Oh
01:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Actually, that is true, I think
01:26:30 <hppavilion[1]> Let me check
01:26:44 <myname> zgrep: it will most likely brealk at |@+k| nontheless
01:26:47 <zgrep> Well, for all reals, |a|*|b| = |a*b|, I think.
01:26:58 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Not for the complexes though
01:26:59 <zgrep> myname: Well, if k = @, then |@+@| = -2 :P
01:27:11 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Probably something like that.
01:27:20 <hppavilion[1]> |i| = 1, |1| = 1, |1+i| = sqrt(2) but |1|+|i|=2
01:27:23 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, shit
01:27:26 <hppavilion[1]> You were doing *
01:27:36 <zgrep> |i| = 1?
01:27:43 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Yeah. You didn't know that?
01:27:47 <zgrep> I do now. :D
01:27:52 <hppavilion[1]> ||@|| = 1
01:28:10 <myname> that depends on what norm you are using
01:28:11 <hppavilion[1]> Usually, |x| = ||x||, but not when dealing with sgeoids
01:28:21 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Wait, but why is |i| = 1?
01:28:25 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What norm?
01:28:33 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Because the distance between i and 0 is 1.
01:28:39 <zgrep> Good point! :D
01:28:43 <myname> |i| could also be i
01:28:47 <hppavilion[1]> |a+bi| = sqrt(a^2+b^2)
01:28:50 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Since when?
01:29:01 <zgrep> @ introduces negative distances... does that simply mean going backwards in time? :P
01:29:05 <myname> because the dostance between i and 0 is i
01:29:25 <hppavilion[1]> myname: No, it's 1
01:29:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It's clearly 1
01:29:29 <rdococ> what about a number j which relates to hyperbolic trig?
01:29:45 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that depends
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01:30:24 <myname> |a + bi| = |a| + |b| is as valid as |a + bi| = sqrt(a^2 + b^2)
01:30:34 <myname> both of them are well defined
01:31:35 <rdococ> no, the complex plane is like an x/y plane - the distance from i to 0 is 1
01:31:59 <rdococ> and from 1+i to 0 is sqrt(2)
01:32:36 <myname> as long as it follows some rules, anything is fine really
01:32:58 <rdococ> but those are the rules of the complex system
01:33:18 <myname> like, |x| = 0 => x = 0
01:33:40 <myname> |a| + |b| >= |a+b|
01:34:18 <rdococ> but I have the idea of a hyperbolic complex plane where e^jx = sin(x) + icosh(x)
01:34:31 <rdococ> sinh*
01:34:39 <rdococ> j*
01:34:45 <rdococ> jcosh*
01:39:06 <zgrep> -|@| = |i|. Huh.
01:39:34 <rdococ> |i| = 1
01:39:40 <rdococ> |@| = -1
01:39:47 <rdococ> -|@| = 1
01:39:48 <myname> that's what he said
01:40:24 <rdococ> |3| = |3|
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01:41:14 <zgrep> |k@| ≠ |k||@|... argh! If only this weren't true, then things with @ would be much easier to think about.
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01:41:57 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: |k@| = k|@|
01:42:03 <hppavilion[1]> But that's not very good
01:42:15 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: True...
01:42:17 <myname> that would break math for k = @
01:42:27 <zgrep> Would it?
01:42:33 <zgrep> I don't see it breaking math for k = @...
01:42:34 <myname> you posted it
01:42:42 <zgrep> Well, what I wrote, yes. Not what hppavilion[1] wrote.
01:43:02 <myname> so |@@| is -@?
01:43:27 <zgrep> Yeap.
01:43:32 <myname> and |-3@| would be 3?
01:43:35 <zgrep> Yeppers.
01:43:41 <zgrep> Because |n@| = -n
01:43:44 <rdococ> omg that actually make sense
01:44:14 <rdococ> |n@| = -(|n|@/@)
01:44:27 <rdococ> @.@
01:44:27 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: @ .
01:44:33 <rdococ> @_@
01:45:11 <myname> what about |@+k|
01:46:00 <zgrep> rdococ: Wat?
01:46:04 <zgrep> myname: Exactly. :/
01:47:56 <myname> asume k = @, that would make |@+k| = -2
01:48:16 <rdococ> |@+k| = -k/@ + -1?
01:48:20 <myname> k = -@ would make it 0
01:48:51 <rdococ> |k/@|
01:49:04 <rdococ> what about 1/@
01:49:26 <myname> k = n@ -> |@+k| = -(n+1)
01:50:24 <myname> k = -n@ -> |@+k| = -n+1
01:51:50 <rdococ> k = n -> |@+k| = -1 - ((n/@)+1)...?
01:52:46 <rdococ> n = @ -> |@+n| = -1 - ((n/@)+1) -> -3...?
01:53:32 <rdococ> k = n@ -> |@+k| = -(n+1)
01:53:33 <myname> k = -(n+2)k -> |@+k| = -(n+2)+1 = -(n+1)
01:53:37 <rdococ> now plug in n = 1/@
01:54:03 <myname> so |@ + k| = |@ - k + 2|
01:54:09 <rdococ> k = (1/@)@ -> |@+k| = -((1/@)+1)
01:55:12 <rdococ> |@+x| = -1/@ - 1
01:55:32 <rdococ> |@+x| = -x/@ - 1
01:55:54 <rdococ> nowait
01:56:17 <zgrep> k = @; |@+k| = -2
01:57:22 <\oren\> The enigma machine had a keyboard that was qwertzuio asdfghjk pyxcvbnml
01:58:56 <rdococ> |x@| = -x
01:59:19 <rdococ> now say x = (@+x)/@
01:59:28 <myname> |x| = |-x| -> |k + @| = |k - 2 - @| -> @ = -2 - @ -> 2@ = -2 -> @ = -1
01:59:36 <rdococ> y*
01:59:52 <myname> rdococ: sounds wrong
02:00:01 <rdococ> |x@| = -x
02:00:13 <rdococ> now say x = 1 + y/@
02:00:20 <myname> how should (a+b)/b = a?
02:00:32 <myname> that would make a + b = a * b
02:01:09 <zgrep> \oren\: Intriguing.
02:01:09 <rdococ> a = (b+c)/b?
02:01:19 <rdococ> I meant y there
02:01:47 <myname> so a = 1 + c/b?
02:02:02 <rdococ> yes
02:02:36 <myname> what are you trying to do
02:02:47 <zgrep> Oh, that's interesting.
02:03:13 <zgrep> |n@|=-n; n=(@+x)/@; |@+x| = -(@+x)/@... huh.
02:04:04 <myname> i don't quite get where these division rules came from
02:04:24 <zgrep> Are you saying I'm assuming @/@ = 1?
02:04:54 <myname> i don't get what made you assume n = (@+x)/@
02:05:51 <zgrep> Who cares, it works?
02:06:04 <myname> how so
02:06:06 <zgrep> And it was rdococ that made me assume. :P
02:06:14 <zgrep> It figures out what |@+k| is.
02:06:25 <myname> solve for k = @
02:06:29 <rdococ> So we want to know |@ + x|.
02:06:35 <zgrep> Hm. Let's try.
02:06:38 <rdococ> Let's divide both sides by @. |(1 + x/@)@|
02:06:39 <myname> ah
02:06:45 <rdococ> Apply the rule. -(1 + x/@)
02:06:57 <rdococ> Simplify. -1 - x/@ Assuming my knowledge of parentheses are correct.
02:07:00 <zgrep> -1-1 = -2 :D
02:07:15 <zgrep> It works, of coures. :)
02:07:17 <zgrep> s/res/rse/
02:07:22 <rdococ> Yay
02:07:24 <zgrep> Or, wait... does it?
02:07:30 <zgrep> Yeah, probably.
02:07:33 <zgrep> Yep, it works.
02:08:07 <myname> looks reasonable
02:08:24 <myname> i am not sure if that somehow breaks my contradiction above
02:08:28 <rdococ> I've known that a + b = (1 + b/a)a for ages now.
02:08:30 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -(@+k)/@
02:08:35 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
02:09:07 <zgrep> myname: Hm, which contradiction?
02:09:11 <rdococ> a + b = (a/a + b/a)a = (1 + b/a)a
02:09:22 <rdococ> I dunno if it applies to @, but I don't see why otherwise.
02:09:43 <myname> |x| = |-x| -> |k + @| = |k - 2 - @| -> @ = -2 - @ -> 2@ = -2 -> @ = -1
02:09:47 <myname> that one
02:09:54 <zgrep> Why does |k + @| = |k - 2 - @|?
02:09:59 <zgrep> Or are we assuming that?
02:10:32 <myname> because |k + @| = |-(k + 2) + @|
02:10:43 <zgrep> Err... why?
02:11:05 <rdococ> |5 + @| = |-7 + @|... nope, does not make sense, unless that's why it's contradictory
02:12:03 <rdococ> |5 + @| = -1 - 5/@, meanwhile |-7 + @| = -1 + 7/@. One's less than -1, and the other's more. That's assuming @ > 0.
02:12:09 <zgrep> `tomfoolery @
02:12:10 <HackEgo> ​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -(@+k)/@
02:12:12 <myname> because |k + @| = -(n + 1) for k = n@ and |-(k+2) + @| = -(k+2) + 1
02:12:25 <zgrep> k = -n
02:12:26 -!- Lyka has left.
02:12:36 <zgrep> Err, no, I'm wrong, sorry.
02:13:05 <myname> |5@ + @| = |-7@ + @|
02:13:11 <zgrep> So the assumption is that k = n@..., then |k + @| = |n@ + @| = |(n+1)@| = -n-1
02:13:26 <myname> wait, no
02:13:50 <rdococ> so wait, |k + @| = -(k/@ + 1), right? that follows what I got, then |-(k+2)+@| = -(k+2) + 1...wait, what?
02:13:54 <zgrep> 6 ≠ -6 :P
02:14:17 <zgrep> |5@ + @| ≠ |-7@ + @| because |a@| ≠ |a||@|
02:15:04 <myname> but |-n@ + @| = -n + 1
02:15:10 <zgrep> No.
02:15:11 <zgrep> -n - 1
02:15:14 <rdococ> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@
02:15:17 <zgrep> Err.. wait.
02:15:18 <zgrep> Crap.
02:15:25 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
02:15:28 <rdococ> `tomfoolery @
02:15:29 <HackEgo> ​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@
02:15:35 <rdococ> I didn't get your version so I put my own
02:15:45 <zgrep> |-n@ + @| = |(1-n)@| = n-1
02:15:51 <zgrep> ^ myname
02:16:12 <rdococ> makes sense
02:16:17 <myname> indeed
02:16:23 <rdococ> hmm
02:16:24 <zgrep> rdococ: Same thing. :P
02:16:54 <zgrep> (that's with regards to |@+k|)
02:17:44 <myname> interesting
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02:21:04 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: H444444444444444XXX11111N444444770000000000R
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02:24:57 <hppavilion[1]> ^myname
02:25:09 <zgrep> I think it'd look nicer if rephrased: |@-k| = k/@ - 1 :P
02:25:14 <hppavilion[1]> Are you there fungot? It's me, hppavilion[1]
02:25:15 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: not having guarantees for these things is sensible. thread-terminate! brings nothing but trouble...? or am i screwing something up. b.
02:25:40 <myname> pretty good answer
02:27:13 <zgrep> So what'd |1/@| be...
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02:27:56 <myname> for that we have to know what |@^k| is
02:28:09 <zgrep> Not necessarily.
02:28:36 <myname> well, but we want it nontheless
02:28:43 <zgrep> Inverse isn't exactly the same thing as power, not completely/exactly. As far as I know.
02:29:04 <rdococ> |@*@| = -@
02:29:12 <zgrep> Hm... |@| = -1, |@@| = -@, |@@@| = -@@, etc.
02:29:35 <rdococ> |@^k| = -(@^k-1)
02:29:55 <rdococ> |@^-1| = -(@^-2)
02:29:55 <zgrep> Please put some parens there. :P
02:30:06 <rdococ> -(@^(k-1))
02:30:10 <zgrep> Indeedy. :)
02:31:02 <myname> so, |1/@| is -1/(@@)?
02:31:14 <zgrep> Hm...
02:31:23 <rdococ> |1/0| = -1/(@@)
02:31:28 <rdococ> @*
02:31:28 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
02:31:31 <rdococ> s/0/@
02:32:58 <zgrep> Seems like that's it.
02:35:00 <zgrep> `tomfoolery @
02:35:01 <HackEgo> ​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@
02:35:32 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1))
02:35:35 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
02:35:57 <rdococ> x^@
02:36:01 <zgrep> Oooh, yes...
02:36:32 <myname> that's a taugh one
02:38:10 <myname> we may ignore it :D
02:38:16 <rdococ> :/
02:38:42 <myname> like, |x^@| could be x^@
02:39:15 <rdococ> |@^@| = -(@^(@-1))
02:39:17 <myname> i don't see how thatwould break anything since that exists für even exponents
02:39:32 <myname> why that
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02:39:56 <myname> |@^@| also is a nice emoticon
02:39:58 <rdococ> |x@^y|
02:41:35 <myname> |x@^y| = x|@^y| = -x@^(y-1)?
02:41:53 <zgrep> Do you mean x(@^y) or (x@)^y?
02:42:10 <rdococ> (x@)^y
02:42:53 <zgrep> (x^y)(@^y)
02:44:02 <zgrep> |@^0| = -(@^(-1))
02:44:48 <zgrep> Technically...
02:45:25 <zgrep> |((k^@)/@)@| = |k^@| = -((k^@)/@)
02:46:28 <zgrep> k^@ = -@|k^@|
02:47:17 <myname> the @^0 is bad
02:47:33 <myname> is there any way tp make it be 1?
02:48:27 <zgrep> |ab@| = a|b@|, right?
02:48:42 <myname> i guess
02:50:06 <zgrep> myname: I guess that |@^0| simply isn't 1...
02:51:05 <zgrep> myname: It works out: |@^1| = -(@^0), so @^0 = -|@^1| = -|@| = 1
02:51:25 <myname> what version?
02:51:33 <zgrep> |@^q| = -(@^(q-1)), q = 1
02:52:16 <myname> ah
02:53:32 <myname> but i donjt like how |@^0| != |1|
02:53:36 <myname> but that is fine
02:53:42 <zgrep> Let's assume that it is...
02:53:43 <zgrep> But 1 = |1|... and -(@^(-1)) = |@^0|... so -1 = @^(-1)...
02:53:49 <myname> |0^0| isn't 1 either
02:54:26 <zgrep> So 1/@ = -1?
02:54:31 <zgrep> That doesn't work, does it?
02:55:15 <zgrep> No, it doesn't.
02:55:22 <zgrep> Because @ ≠ -1, right...
02:55:36 <zgrep> Where did I mess u.
02:55:37 <zgrep> s/u/up/
02:55:49 <myname> @^0 simply isn't 1
02:55:50 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
02:56:12 <zgrep> myname: No, @^0 seems to be 1... just |@^0| doesn't seem to be 1... :(
02:56:23 <zgrep> ...unless @^0 isn't 1, because @^1 ≠ 1...
02:56:24 <myname> fine, too
02:56:37 <zgrep> How's that fine, though... |1| ≠ 1, then?
02:56:55 <myname> right
02:57:05 <myname> so @^0 must not be 1
02:57:31 <zgrep> `tomfoolery
02:57:32 <zgrep> `tomfoolery @
02:57:37 <myname> but that may imply @^1 is not @
02:57:42 <HackEgo> I have nothing to tell you.
02:57:42 <HackEgo> ​​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1))
02:57:59 <zgrep> |@^1| = -(@^(-2))...
02:59:05 <myname> well, but as you said, |@^1| = -(@^0)
02:59:32 <myname> if @^1 were @, that would mean @^0 is 1
02:59:44 -!- tromp has joined.
03:00:22 <myname> so we either have to define |@^x| somehow else or we have to say that @^0 is not 1 and @^1 is not @
03:00:28 <zgrep> Whoops,
03:00:29 <zgrep> s/,/./
03:00:32 <myname> i don't like the second part, though
03:00:58 <zgrep> Yeah...
03:01:21 <myname> so the exponential rule is wrong
03:01:39 <zgrep> I mean, it works out that @^0 = 1 and @^1 = 1, they work together... but they end up giving @ a wrong value...
03:02:00 <zgrep> I guess...
03:02:02 <myname> we may do something like ^(sqrt(x)) to work around these sneaky 0 and 1 edge cases
03:04:30 <zgrep> a^b = a*a*a... b times, right? That's the definition we're going with?
03:04:34 <zgrep> Or something else.
03:04:36 <myname> wait, how did your 1/@ worked above
03:05:06 <myname> why is -1 = @^(-1)
03:05:18 <zgrep> I'm not sure what I did above... I've lost my train(s) of thought.
03:05:45 <zgrep> https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/f/8/7f80d3b6fbe1d4e35eca5022242872bf.png <-- that's the definition we're going with, right?
03:06:01 <myname> -1 = |@| = |@^1| = -(@^0)
03:06:07 <myname> yeah
03:06:16 <zgrep> Indeed...
03:07:26 <myname> i do think you made an error above but i am quite unsure
03:07:38 <zgrep> I probably made a few errors above.
03:07:42 <zgrep> |@^k| = @^(k-1) * |@|, right?
03:08:10 <zgrep> Simply because of the fact that |a@| = a|@|
03:08:34 <zgrep> So |@^k| = -(@^(k-1))
03:08:52 <zgrep> If @^0 = 1, then 1 = |@^0| = -(@^(-1))...
03:09:12 <rdococ> aha!
03:09:34 <rdococ> 1 = -(1/@)... that means 1/@ = -1...???
03:10:18 <rdococ> that's... weird - I heard you talking about it above but never stopped to read
03:10:48 <myname> ah
03:10:50 <zgrep> If @^1 = @, then -1 = |@^1| = -(@^0), then 1 = @^0...
03:11:10 <zgrep> -1 = (1/@)...
03:11:18 <rdococ> @^0 = 1, @^-1 = -1, and @^1 = @.
03:11:18 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
03:11:43 <rdococ> I guess 1/-1 has two solutions now
03:12:03 <myname> @ and -1?
03:12:08 <myname> may work out
03:12:21 <zgrep> So how did I show that @ is a number...
03:12:35 <myname> but does this imply it for any division?
03:12:51 <myname> like, is 1/-2 equal to some @ thing?
03:13:19 <zgrep> |@^(-2)| = -(@^(-3))...
03:13:32 <rdococ> 1/-2 = -1/2 or (1/2)@
03:13:35 <rdococ> I would say
03:13:47 <zgrep> |@^-1| = |-1| = 1... so -(@^(-2)) = 1?
03:14:03 <myname> that would make -1 may or may not be @
03:14:24 <zgrep> (@*@) = -1
03:14:25 <zgrep> ?
03:14:25 <rdococ> @^-2 = -1?
03:14:25 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
03:14:38 <rdococ> |@*@| = 1?!?!?!?!
03:14:44 <myname> no
03:14:51 <myname> |@@| = -@
03:15:06 <rdococ> but zgrep said
03:15:24 <zgrep> If @^-2 = -1, then -1*(@^2) = 1, then @^2 = -1... D:
03:15:48 <rdococ> ...then that means sqrt(-1) = @ and @ = i...
03:15:58 <rdococ> but that's ludicrous
03:16:02 <zgrep> |i| = 1, though.
03:16:05 <zgrep> @ is ludicrous.
03:16:23 <rdococ> indeed, bordering on ridiculous
03:16:31 <rdococ> but interesting enough to keep around
03:16:34 <zgrep> Something weird is going on here with powers... :(
03:17:03 <rdococ> @^-1 is -1, right?
03:17:03 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
03:17:07 <myname> but that would mean |i| = -1
03:17:27 <myname> rdococ: ot depends on how you calculate
03:17:31 <myname> but yeah
03:17:58 <rdococ> if we assume that @^-1 = -1, then (@^-1)^-1 = -1 too, so @^-2 = -1...
03:18:03 <rdococ> it acts a lot like -1
03:18:05 -!- earendel has joined.
03:18:18 <rdococ> if my maths is right
03:18:38 <zgrep> I'm going to take a break from @ for now.
03:18:56 <rdococ> hmm
03:19:24 <rdococ> I think the problem lies in the absolute value function of x@
03:19:25 <zgrep> What if we just say that |n@| = n|@| instead of -1...
03:19:37 <zgrep> Err, instead of -n.
03:19:49 <rdococ> since f(x) = |x@| doesn't swap slopes at the origin
03:20:18 <rdococ> I mean, |x@| = -x, but |x| = x if x >= 0, and -x otherwise
03:20:23 <rdococ> no such conditional in the @
03:20:24 <myname> rdococ: i don't get ypur (@^-1)^-1 = -1
03:20:33 <zgrep> Something makes me think this is simply a problem of choosing absolute value, something related to distances...
03:20:37 <rdococ> @^-1 = -1
03:20:37 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
03:20:48 <rdococ> -1^-1 = 1/-1 = -1
03:20:52 <rdococ> or @
03:21:01 <rdococ> if we say @^-2 = @
03:21:10 <rdococ> then we complicate things a lot
03:21:19 <myname> ah, i see
03:22:19 <myname> we may need to start from stratch
03:22:28 <rdococ> I'm going to make a small adjustment to @'s behaviour, and call the new one ©.
03:22:35 <earendel> |x|-|x| = -2x?
03:22:50 <rdococ> |x©| = -|x|
03:22:55 <rdococ> so |-©| = -1
03:22:55 <zgrep> |x|-|x| = 0
03:23:23 <zgrep> rdococ: Hm.
03:23:28 <rdococ> if we try © instead of @, do you think it will turn out with less contradictions?
03:23:30 <earendel> is @ something in particulatr already?
03:23:41 <zgrep> `tomfoolery @
03:23:43 <HackEgo> ​​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1))
03:23:47 <rdococ> © is different in that |-©| < 0
03:23:48 <earendel> thanks
03:23:53 <rdococ> while |-@| > 0
03:24:01 <pikhq> Every time I see @ I think ehird. Alas.
03:24:21 <zgrep> |©| = -1?
03:24:28 <rdococ> yep
03:24:44 <rdococ> |©+k| = -1 - k/©, there's no change there, infact it works with any variable or constant
03:24:46 <myname> rdococ: which is also true for @
03:25:01 <rdococ> but |-©| = -1 where |-@| = 1
03:25:04 <myname> ah
03:25:06 <zgrep> |n©| = -|n|... hm...
03:25:44 <myname> that might work
03:25:53 <rdococ> |©©| = -|©| = 1... interesting, difference already - it almost looks recursive
03:25:56 <myname> but i am way to lazy to type a copyright symbol
03:26:02 <rdococ> just put c instead
03:26:04 <zgrep> |n©| = -|n|, |((©+n)/©)©| = |©+n| = -|((©+n)/©)|
03:26:13 <rdococ> whut
03:26:23 <zgrep> Different n's, sorry.
03:27:01 <myname> we might as well call it @ and remove out old draft
03:27:13 <rdococ> nah, incase © runs into problems too
03:27:20 <zgrep> -|((©+n)/©)| = -|1 + n/©|... I don't see how this is still the same as @?
03:27:48 <rdococ> true
03:27:58 <earendel> :)
03:28:00 <rdococ> hmm
03:28:07 <myname> not the same, but we basically made all the rules up from a wrong first definition
03:28:25 <myname> we might as well change that definition and start over still calling it @
03:29:07 <zgrep> I don't see how to unwrap it from the absolute value, though, which could be what makes it work, but still...
03:29:15 <zgrep> ...sort-of sad. :(
03:29:15 <rdococ> |© + k| = |(1 + k/©)/©|. Using the rule where |n©| = -|n|, we get -|1 + k/©|
03:29:21 <myname> or choose some symbol that's on an ordinary keyboard
03:29:42 <rdococ> © looks like @
03:29:47 <earendel> invariance of @
03:30:04 <rdococ> so
03:30:39 <zgrep> myname: Use the all-mighty compose key! :P
03:30:51 <rdococ> |n©| = -|n|; |© + n| = -|1 + n/©|; |©^n|?
03:30:55 <myname> that's a pain in the ass on a software keyboard
03:31:16 <zgrep> myname: Oh... software keyboard? Those have © somewhere, but yeah, it's annoying to get to usually.
03:31:26 <zgrep> Try clicking and holding on 'c' or 'g'?
03:31:42 <zgrep> Or use c. Or `. Or any symbol, really. :P
03:31:47 <myname> i have it in a seperate menu on ,
03:32:17 <rdococ> |©^n| = -|©^(n-1)|
03:32:19 <zgrep> |©^n| = -|©^(n-1)| I thknk.
03:32:22 <zgrep> s/knk/ink/
03:32:30 <myname> ∆ is also an option
03:32:41 <zgrep> But ∆ is taken for small changes.
03:32:43 <rdococ> |©^1| = -|©^0| = -1
03:32:47 <myname> and while we are at it, let's define the ― operation
03:33:00 <zgrep> -? Or –? Or —?
03:33:11 <myname> the last
03:33:13 <rdococ> |©^2| = -|©^1| = |©^0| = 1
03:33:24 <rdococ> indeed, recursive
03:33:29 <myname> ʒ
03:33:37 <zgrep> How about £. :P
03:33:47 <myname> ¸
03:33:52 <rdococ> &
03:33:56 <myname> works nice for multiplication
03:34:03 <zgrep> This is a nice symbol for a variable, right: ‰ ? :P
03:34:11 <rdococ> maybe &
03:34:30 <myname> ¡
03:34:49 <zgrep> -5 = |5©|... hm...
03:35:11 <rdococ> |©^x| is -1 for an odd number but 1 for an even one... weird
03:35:14 <zgrep> © works nicely.
03:35:18 <earendel> (hold ALT) 169
03:35:18 <zgrep> Sort-of bland, though.
03:35:20 <rdococ> |©^0| = 1 works though
03:35:24 <rdococ> |©^-1| = -1
03:35:32 <rdococ> |©^-2| = 1
03:35:41 <zgrep> So ©^2 is now 1?
03:35:46 <earendel> what's a software keyboard? like onscreen interface?
03:35:52 <rdococ> yes
03:35:55 <myname> yeah
03:35:57 <earendel> kay.
03:36:04 <myname> pretty normal on smartphones
03:36:06 <rdococ> |©©| = -|©| = 1
03:36:12 * zgrep takes a break from this to eat some cake
03:36:14 <rdococ> it's recursive
03:36:18 <zgrep> But |1| = 1, therefore ©© = 1
03:36:19 <myname> but
03:36:30 <myname> what is |@©|
03:36:31 <rdococ> uh?
03:36:33 <zgrep> Or ©© = -1...
03:36:38 <zgrep> ©© = ±1
03:36:43 <zgrep> There.
03:37:03 <rdococ> |©| = -|©^0| = |©^-1|
03:37:13 <zgrep> myname: :D
03:37:28 <rdococ> |©©| = 1, surprisingly
03:37:32 <zgrep> myname: Obviously -© = 1
03:37:46 <zgrep> If trying to find |@©| you get that. :P
03:37:57 <zgrep> But I think that's because we don't have a working @.
03:38:22 <zgrep> © = 1 or i... depending on the context? :P
03:38:42 * zgrep really goes away now
03:38:43 <rdococ> when did © become i?
03:38:51 <zgrep> If ©© = ±1...
03:38:59 <zgrep> ...I cheated and reversed an absolute value... :P
03:39:05 <rdococ> then |©©| = 1...huh, it is
03:39:20 <rdococ> hey
03:39:23 <rdococ> you can't do that
03:39:29 <zgrep> Why not? :(
03:39:36 <zgrep> The only way to win is to cheat...
03:39:45 <rdococ> 1 = |1| = |-1| = |©©|
03:39:55 <rdococ> so you mean 1 = -1 now?
03:40:14 <rdococ> you can't reverse an absolute value, like you did anyway, whether © exists or not
03:42:01 <rdococ> anyone else?
03:42:06 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]?
03:42:42 <rdococ> we made a modified version of @ called ©, and |x©| = -|x|...hello?
04:00:01 <zgrep> @tell Sgeo__ @ seems to fail with regards to exponents... at least, it doesn't do too well...
04:00:01 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
04:00:51 -!- bender| has joined.
04:01:35 <Sgeo__> zgrep, what's going on?
04:03:02 <zgrep> Sgeo__: So exponents, as in |@^k|. If we assume that |n@| = -n, and n = (@^k)/@, then |@^k| = -(@^k)/@ = -(@^(k-1))
04:06:10 <zgrep> |@^1| = -(@^0); @^1 = @ (because of https://goo.gl/XMm8lT); So |@| = -1 = -(@^0); so @^0 = 1, so far so good...
04:06:13 <zgrep> But...
04:07:31 <zgrep> |@^0| = |1| = 1 = -(@^(-1)); so (1/@) = -1. Therefore -@ = 1, and @ = -1... :/
04:08:02 <zgrep> Sgeo__: Which it isn't.
04:08:30 <zgrep> Any suggestions?
04:08:46 <zgrep> rdococ: Suggested |n©| = -|n|, which seems to do the trick.
04:08:59 <Sgeo__> Where does |n@| = -n come from? Was that my original definiton, or was it |n@| = -|n|? If i remember my most recent proposed definiton for |a+b@| properly, it would be the second, I think
04:09:57 <zgrep> Sgeo__: I don't know what your original definition was, but I know that I first heard of it as |@| = -1.
04:10:15 <zgrep> Sgeo__: What was your most recent definition?
04:11:13 <Sgeo__> |a+b@| = sqrt(a^2 - b^2) if a^2 - b^2 is positive, i*sqrt(a^2 - b^2) if a^2 - b^2 is negative. Or something like that
04:11:37 <zgrep> Eek. More if statements, atop the absolute value... :(
04:12:39 <zgrep> So theoretically I could have |3+4i+5@+6i@|? :D
04:12:53 <Sgeo__> Not sure if my definition extends to cover that
04:13:10 <zgrep> If a and b can be complex, then yes.
04:13:16 <zgrep> I think.
04:14:12 <zgrep> |a+b@| = |√(a²+b²)| ?
04:14:18 <zgrep> Err. no.
04:14:26 <zgrep> |a+b@| = √(|a²-b²|) ?
04:14:27 <zgrep> That?
04:15:16 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|a+b@| = √(|a²-b²|)
04:15:20 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
04:15:33 <zgrep> HackEgo is slower than I last recall...
04:17:25 <zgrep> ...either that, or it's my connection.
04:17:42 <rdococ> So |0+1@| = sqrt(|0 - 1|) = 1???
04:18:11 <rdococ> well maybe not???
04:18:40 <zgrep> Hm... or I'm wrong...
04:19:03 <zgrep> i*sqrt(a^2-b^2) = i*sqrt(-1) = i^2 = -1... :/
04:19:42 <zgrep> But i = sqrt(-1) so i*sqrt(a^2-b^2) = sqrt(b^2 - a^2), no?
04:21:48 <zgrep> I guess not.
04:22:06 <rdococ> so @ is a time dimension?
04:22:37 <zgrep> But... I*Sqrt[b] == Sqrt[-b] ???
04:22:48 <rdococ> yes, I think
04:22:54 <zgrep> Why isn't this working, then?
04:23:12 <rdococ> dunno
04:23:22 <zgrep> a = 0; b = 1; I*Sqrt[a^2 - b^2] => -1; Sqrt[b^2 - a^2] => 1; :(
04:23:38 <rdococ> but I love the idea of a complex hyperplane that takes place in 2 dimensions of space and 1 of time
04:24:17 <rdococ> Sgeo__: was that your intention? a time dimension?
04:24:45 <zgrep> Well, that's what a negative result from absolute value ends up being.
04:24:47 <zgrep> I guess.
04:24:54 <zgrep> Though not exactly.
04:25:03 <Sgeo__> My recent definition of |a+b@| was inspired by the time dimension, which I believe could be described with a numvber # such that |#| = i
04:25:21 <rdococ> that makes sense
04:25:49 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|a+b@| = { √(a²-b²) if a²-b² ≥ 0 ; i√(a²-b²) if a²-b² < 0 }
04:26:08 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
04:26:31 <rdococ> |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²)
04:26:41 <rdococ> three dimensional tau space
04:26:47 <rdococ> tau representing time dimension
04:27:22 <rdococ> |τ| = sqrt(-1) = i, so it fits your definition too
04:27:42 <zgrep> a + bi + cj + dk <-- 3 dimensions + time?
04:27:53 <rdococ> a + bi + cj - dk
04:28:00 <zgrep> I was close.
04:28:18 <zgrep> Neat. :D
04:28:30 <rdococ> the time dimension is negative
04:28:51 <rdococ> distance is a measure of how hard it is to get to somewhere, so more time allowed, the easier it is
04:29:05 <rdococ> cool, right?
04:29:47 <zgrep> Hm.... hmmmmm.... :D
04:29:57 <rdococ> |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²) if √(a² + b² - c²) >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
04:30:10 <zgrep> Wait... so if I have 4τ, then |4τ| = ???
04:30:17 <zgrep> Ahah.
04:30:24 <zgrep> 4i?
04:30:29 <zgrep> Err... not 4i.
04:30:31 <zgrep> 2i?
04:30:42 <rdococ> |4t| = sqrt(-16) = 4i
04:30:44 <zgrep> Err. No. I can't think.
04:30:47 <zgrep> Yeah, 4i.
04:30:55 <zgrep> But... how is 4i easier than 3i?
04:31:12 <rdococ> i is basically the negatives
04:31:32 <rdococ> because square roots are like that
04:31:33 <zgrep> That's... why?
04:31:37 <zgrep> But... why?
04:31:55 <rdococ> because x*x=-1 doesn't have any real solution
04:32:23 <rdococ> using my adjusted formula, |4t| = i*sqrt(-16) = 4ii = -4
04:32:29 <rdococ> which is easier than -3
04:32:43 <zgrep> But... why's it adjusted that way?
04:32:56 <zgrep> I guess you could say it just, err, is that way... but...
04:33:06 <zgrep> Oh, there. I see.
04:33:11 <zgrep> I didn't finish reading the line.
04:33:44 <rdococ> but mine is basically the same as Sgeo__'s @
04:34:05 <rdococ> except that I think tau would be a better symbol to fit it than @
04:34:17 <zgrep> Huh. Is this tau known by any other, more widely accepted names?
04:34:23 <zgrep> tau / @ / whatever.
04:34:29 <rdococ> sometimes t
04:34:53 <zgrep> I meant more as in, is there a wikipedia page with a snippet about it? Or any other links?
04:35:11 <rdococ> nah, idk if anyone thought of it yet
04:36:43 <zgrep> This is pretty neat.
04:37:22 <rdococ> well, I did have a similar idea
04:37:38 <rdococ> a number y where e^yx = sinh(x) + ycosh(x)
04:37:50 <rdococ> tau might fit it
04:38:28 <rdococ> so I guess |@| = -1 after all, since it's time and all
04:39:57 <Sgeo__> I should read these logs at some point
04:40:13 <Sgeo__> I'm only half paying attention, and it involves stuff I'm involved with
04:40:31 <rdococ> we should popularise this @ or tau idea
04:40:40 <rdococ> it would be useful
04:40:50 <zgrep> tau, or @?
04:40:53 <rdococ> both
04:40:56 <rdococ> they're the same
04:40:58 <zgrep> tau.
04:41:03 <zgrep> Damn, autocorrect.
04:41:03 <rdococ> just different names
04:41:05 <zgrep> atau.
04:41:06 <zgrep> :P
04:41:15 <zgrep> t@u? :P
04:41:20 <rdococ> lol
04:42:14 <Sgeo__> I'm confused by rdococ's definition... sqrt is always (normally) >= 0 unless comparison is undefined
04:42:37 <Sgeo__> Should it be read as just a^2 + b^2 - c^2 in the conditional?
04:42:41 <rdococ> |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
04:42:43 <rdococ> yes
04:42:44 <rdococ> you're right
04:43:01 <rdococ> but it's basically the same as yours, with i added on top
04:43:27 <rdococ> I think this kind of stuff is used, just not in this format
04:43:37 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I'm-a-back
04:43:54 <Sgeo__> Is there a way to get the result to be imaginary? Because afaict exactly that is used as the time dimension
04:43:56 <rdococ> also, since it's mostly position, not rotation, if we add a third dimension they don't have to be quarternions
04:44:13 <rdococ> then just remove the conditional
04:44:49 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: With @?
04:44:50 <Sgeo__> But then we exclude negatives
04:45:04 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: |$| = i -> $ = -i@
04:45:10 <Sgeo__> |a + bi + c@ + d#| = ?
04:45:10 <rdococ> what would it mean for the result to be imaginary?
04:45:21 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: What's #?
04:45:36 <Sgeo__> |#| = i
04:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: That's just -i@
04:45:47 <rdococ> what would # mean then?
04:46:04 <hppavilion[1]> |n@| = -n
04:46:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Whatever we like
04:46:20 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: time?
04:46:22 <zgrep> Sgeo__: You mean this thing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion
04:46:25 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It doesn't /have/ to mean something
04:46:36 <Sgeo__> hppavilion[1], there's an argument for why |n@| = -n is not a good idea
04:46:42 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Why?
04:46:52 <Sgeo__> And that |n@| = -|n| makes more sense. Something to do with exponentiation
04:46:56 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: yeah, but if it's part of a system where everything else means something, then it's weird
04:47:02 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Ah, good point
04:47:05 <rdococ> I had the |n@| = -|n| idea
04:47:20 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/VqUBVapD/
04:47:21 <rdococ> before we realized it was about the time dimension
04:47:56 <Sgeo__> I'm still convinced that $ or # is time and @ or tau is something else
04:48:14 <rdococ> well
04:48:34 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Ah, fair enough
04:48:41 <rdococ> distance is a measure of how easy it is to get to somewhere
04:48:51 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: What're $ and #?
04:49:03 <rdococ> if you need to be there in a larger time, then it's easier because you have more time to spare
04:49:12 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Also, we need to standardize terms instead of saying "x or y"
04:49:13 <Sgeo__> hppavilion[1], you just tried to define $ which I tended to call #
04:49:19 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Ah
04:49:20 <rdococ> so that's why tau makes distances lower - getting over there in a day is easier than a minute
04:49:41 <rdococ> makes sense?
04:49:45 <rdococ> it's used in other areas
04:49:54 <rdococ> time as a negative dimension isn't a new idea
04:49:59 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: How about we give all the esonums Georgian names?
04:50:13 <rdococ> georgian?
04:50:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/georgian.html
04:50:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Georgia the country, not the state
04:50:45 <rdococ> georgia is a state?
04:50:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Greek letters are waaaaaaay overused, and Hebrew is reserved for cardinality
04:50:49 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes
04:50:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Also a country
04:50:59 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Two different places, though
04:51:02 <rdococ> I have an even better idea
04:51:03 <rdococ> letter t
04:51:09 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
04:51:27 <hppavilion[1]> Ⴓ is @
04:51:55 <hppavilion[1]> But... neoletters doesn't render Goergian. Of course.
04:52:04 <rdococ> my chat does
04:52:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: OH!
04:52:13 <rdococ> but I'm sticking with t
04:52:18 <Sgeo__> What's wrong with @ similar to ai for something similar to i except with absolute
04:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Why don't we name them with emoji?
04:52:26 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: you should update your neoletters
04:52:41 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I doubt neoletters renders emoji either
04:52:42 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: OK
04:52:45 <\oren\> it's supported Georgian for a while
04:52:47 <rdococ> 3:-D + 2;-)
04:52:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Linky? I don't remember where it is
04:52:58 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Those are emo/ticons/
04:53:04 <rdococ> oh
04:53:10 <rdococ> does this chat even support emojis?
04:53:16 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
04:53:20 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, found it
04:53:28 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It supports Unicode, so yes
04:53:53 <Sgeo__> Some clients might not display it nicely
04:54:20 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Perhaps
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04:54:57 <zgrep> rdococAbs[a_, b_, c_] := Module[{s}, s = a^2 + b^2 - c^2; If[s < 0, I*Sqrt[s], Sqrt[s]]]
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04:55:34 <rdococ> zgrep: yep
04:55:44 <hppavilion[1]> Come oooooooon georg- nope
04:55:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I can't get it to install
04:55:53 <hppavilion[1]> I download the latest ttf
04:56:09 <hppavilion[1]> Open the "THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG" window that Windows gives me (sorry)
04:56:11 <hppavilion[1]> Click install
04:56:17 <hppavilion[1]> Say yes when it asks to replace the font
04:56:20 <hppavilion[1]> Doesn't update
04:56:28 <rdococ> Sgeo__: if $ was time, then what's # or t?
04:56:35 <rdococ> @*
04:56:35 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
04:56:37 <\oren\> try restarting your caht app
04:56:41 <\oren\> chat app
04:56:42 <rdococ> s/#/@
04:57:03 <Sgeo__> rdococ, not really sure. A time dimension that doesn't get weird past the speed of light?
04:57:14 <Sgeo__> Or it gets weird in a different way from reality
04:57:47 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I did. That was the login-logout
04:58:05 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: c = \omega
04:58:08 <rdococ> |$| = i, but |t| = -1... what is imaginary distance anyway
04:58:08 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Fixed.
04:58:58 <\oren\> try setting your font to another one and back to neoletters?
04:59:14 <\oren\> I do that in my terminal each time I update it
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05:00:17 <rdococ> variable = 26
05:00:26 <hppavilion[1]> Would rolling my own IRC client be a bad idea?
05:00:39 <\oren\> no
05:00:57 <\oren\> IRC is a very simple protocol, easy to implement
05:01:06 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: That didn't work
05:01:15 <myname> i'd use ii as a foundation
05:02:08 <rdococ> h,,
05:02:14 <\oren\> there are well-known libraries in Perl and Python for IRC
05:02:21 <rdococ> toiiredp
05:02:34 <variable> rdococ: SEGMENTATION FAULT
05:02:42 <rdococ> huh?
05:02:52 <variable> hppavilion[1]: yeah, IRC is fairly easy to write a client for
05:02:56 <variable> look at the sheer number of bots
05:03:04 <myname> http://tools.suckless.org/ii/
05:05:12 <rdococ> t*t = ?
05:05:39 <zgrep> \oren\, can you guess which is the number 3 and which is the russian letter 'eh'? https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/YIDcIFry/3eh.png
05:05:52 <zgrep> Without trying it yourself, that is. :P
05:06:49 <myname> i'd say the left one is a 3
05:07:51 <myname> i am getting sleepy
05:07:58 <\oren\> myname: you are correct
05:11:46 <\oren\> neoletters also has ↋ƐɛɜɝꜾꜿεЄԐԑЗз
05:11:50 <rdococ> should I implement t into Squeak?
05:12:38 <rdococ> what is t*t?
05:13:52 <rdococ> |a + bi + cj + ... + zt| = √(a² + b² + c² + ... - z²) if a² + b² + c² + ... - z² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² + c² + ... - z²)
05:14:02 <rdococ> generalized to n dimensions
05:14:37 <rdococ> but help me discover t*t
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05:16:48 <rdococ> |1 + 1i + 2t| = isqrt(1 + 1 - 4) = -2
05:17:51 -!- Lyka has joined.
05:17:55 <Lyka> hi
05:18:06 <rdococ> -sqrt(2)*
05:18:16 <Lyka> update on hexadec: made a "reduced" form
05:18:16 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: make sure in the font menu you select neoletters Regular?
05:18:30 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I believe I did
05:18:31 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/49wLRcB3
05:18:43 <hppavilion[1]> Normal
05:19:07 <Lyka> brb
05:19:52 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: well that's a prblem. it should be "Regular" nd not "Normal"
05:20:03 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: There is no "Regular"
05:20:09 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: So I assume Regular = Normal
05:20:27 <\oren\> the earlier versions had "Normal" the newer ones have "Regular"
05:21:33 <\oren\> hmm maybe go to the controlpanel->fonts and find neoletters and delete it?
05:24:23 <Lyka> back
05:24:48 <Lyka> so, um, does the language make any sense now?
05:25:01 <\oren\> hmm I wonder why installing the new version over the old doesn't work when the naming of the subfonts changed?
05:25:15 <\oren\> spooky
05:29:23 <Lyka> is this a bad time to ask about a language i made?
05:29:39 <rdococ> can you help me determine what t*t is?
05:29:40 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
05:29:52 <Lyka> t^2?
05:30:08 <rdococ> well, yes, but
05:30:12 <rdococ> what's t^2?
05:30:12 <zgrep> Dang. Perl6 has a bunch of neat things it can do... http://tpm2016.zoffix.com/
05:30:20 <rdococ> I can't seem to figure it out
05:31:27 <rdococ> also, how is getting to (5, 5) in 6 seconds as easy as getting to 50, 50 in 51 seconds?
05:31:45 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² / c²) if a² + b² / c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² / c²)
05:32:00 <zgrep> rdococ: Well, what's t?
05:32:19 <rdococ> |5, 5i, 6t| = sqrt(25 + 25 / 36) = sqrt(50 / 36)
05:32:52 <rdococ> but wait
05:33:03 <rdococ> if we do
05:33:03 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
05:33:07 <Lyka> (5*sqrt(2)) / (50*sqrt(2)) == 1/10
05:33:22 <zgrep> rdococAbs[5, 5, 6] = Sqrt[14]
05:33:25 <Lyka> 6/51 != 1/10
05:33:37 <Lyka> sorry
05:33:45 <Lyka> i'm not good at math
05:34:20 <Lyka> passed calc 1 by sucking up during the last 5 weeks
05:34:41 <Lyka> passed calc 2 by dropping out of college
05:34:47 <rdococ> then |1 + 1i + 2t| = sqrt(1 + 1 - 4) = sqrt(-2) but |2 + 2i + 4t| = sqrt(4 + 4 - 16) = sqrt(...oh
05:34:55 <rdococ> wait
05:35:06 <rdococ> -8?
05:35:06 <zgrep> rdococAbs[1, 1, 2] = -Sqrt[2]
05:35:22 <rdococ> ik
05:35:40 <rdococ> should it be - c^2 or / c^2?
05:35:57 <zgrep> rdococAbs is written with - c^2... division?
05:36:09 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² / c²)
05:36:24 <rdococ> getting there in 5 seconds is twice as hard as 10 seconds, same as if you double the distance
05:36:25 <zgrep> Just b/c?
05:36:32 <rdococ> no
05:36:34 <zgrep> Or (a^2+b^2)/(c^2)
05:36:38 <rdococ> yes
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05:37:03 <rdococ> I think that will work better
05:37:14 <zgrep> rdococAbs2[1, 2, I] = -Sqrt[5] :P
05:37:43 <rdococ> well, Abs2[1, 1, 2] should be 1 + 1 / 4, or 1/2
05:37:51 <rdococ> well
05:38:12 <rdococ> |1 + 1i + 2t| = sqrt(1 + 1 / 4) = sqrt(1/2)
05:38:36 <rdococ> |2 + 2i + 4t| = sqrt(4 + 4 / 16) = sqrt(1/2)
05:38:41 <rdococ> yay
05:38:44 <rdococ> it works as intended
05:39:48 <zgrep> 1/Sqrt[2]
05:39:53 <zgrep> Abs2[1,1,2] ^
05:40:06 <rdococ> yay
05:40:20 <rdococ> what software are you using? Mathematica?
05:40:22 <zgrep> Yep.
05:40:25 <rdococ> is it free?
05:40:30 <zgrep> Unfortunately, no.
05:40:35 <rdococ> how much does it cost?
05:40:40 <zgrep> Too much.
05:40:51 <rdococ> really?
05:40:55 <zgrep> I get it free, courtesy of school.
05:41:06 <rdococ> I ask how much money something will cost and you give me the vaguest answer.
05:41:11 <rdococ> -.-
05:41:28 <zgrep> http://www.wolfram.com/mathematica/pricing/
05:41:35 <rdococ> okay
05:41:36 <rdococ> ty
05:41:50 <zgrep> See, pricy.
05:41:53 <zgrep> s/cy/cey/ :P
05:42:18 <zgrep> Though technically, your function is easily written in K...
05:42:36 <rdococ> hmm
05:42:43 <rdococ> or any other language really
05:42:58 <rdococ> just need to figure out t*t
05:43:34 <rdococ> well, multiplying by a unit like 1, i or t should keep the magnitude the same
05:43:42 <rdococ> so |x| = |x*t|
05:43:53 <rdococ> no wait
05:43:59 <rdococ> wait yeah
05:44:00 <rdococ> wait
05:45:43 <Lyka> great.... |x|-rated conversation
05:45:58 <zgrep> Heheh...
05:46:46 <rdococ> well
05:46:53 <rdococ> a space angle is rotation
05:46:58 <rdococ> a space time angle is velocity
05:46:58 <zgrep> rdococ: Mathematica can *sometimes* be fed into Mathics, and perhaps even into WolframAlpha sometimes.
05:48:01 <zgrep> Mathics is this thing: https://mathics.angusgriffith.com/
05:48:53 <Lyka> K?
05:49:08 <zgrep> Lyka: kparc.com/k.txt
05:49:26 <zgrep> Though I don't know if it'd work with imaginary numbers. It wasn't exactly designed for those, I don't think.
05:49:33 <zgrep> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_%28programming_language%29
05:51:22 <rdococ> hm
05:53:40 <rdococ> |x| = infinity
05:53:49 <rdococ> |x + t| = x
05:53:58 <rdococ> 1*
05:54:03 <rdococ> x*
05:54:55 <Lyka> solve for x where x^0 != 1
05:59:24 * Lyka imagines sheep with numbers on them
05:59:30 <Lyka> night
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06:14:10 <rdococ> hhbhb so t ired##
06:16:42 <b_jonas> Internet is full of April's fools jokes now. http://www.questionablecontent.net/ has one.
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06:50:07 <b_jonas> In underload, is it possible to store data in the source code at four bits per source code character density such that the program can decode it unambiguously?
07:08:05 <b_jonas> I think it's possible. I'll have to try to make a proof.
07:09:14 <dos> Someone should write a Hello, World with 1000000% cruft, MVC, etc.
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07:09:48 <hppavilion[1]> AbstractPrinterFactory()
07:10:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46711&oldid=46710 * Kc kennylau * (+47) /* 0 to 255 using only a, e, u, z (To be completed) */
07:11:49 <Taneb> Today's GG is probably very good for certain shippers
07:13:12 <hppavilion[1]> Could we atomize MVC even further?
07:13:18 <hppavilion[1]> MVCQDNX?
07:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> To make something even more atrocious
07:13:44 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: I'm absolutely certain that's been done... http://www.ariel.com.au/jokes/The_Evolution_of_a_Programmer.html
07:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Perhaps we should make the world's most absurdly bloated Beginning Projects Repo
07:16:20 <hppavilion[1]> With officially-named and trademarked programs
07:16:26 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: https://github.com/fwilson42/SimpleJavaEasyNumber
07:16:32 <hppavilion[1]> Industrial strenght, of course
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08:07:09 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/snoopavision?v=MU39xSNukfg
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09:31:38 <oerjan> > ord '='
09:31:40 <lambdabot> 61
09:31:55 <oerjan> @messages-
09:31:55 <lambdabot> boily asked 8h 39m 14s ago: do you feel matched?
09:32:04 <oerjan> @tell boily No.
09:32:04 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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09:37:16 * oerjan realizes he just did something he's been annoyed at others doing.
09:37:27 <oerjan> @tell boily RE: matching.
09:37:27 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:40:03 <zgrep> oerjan: You're unmatched?
09:40:12 <zgrep> :P
09:40:29 <oerjan> in so many ways
09:43:19 <zgrep> Heheh.
09:43:57 <zgrep> That's both happy and sad. :|
09:44:41 <oerjan> yep
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10:19:56 <FireFly> I guess unmatched is better than mismatched (maybe(
10:20:07 <FireFly> Hm, that should probably have been (maybe]
10:31:01 <b_jonas> Are there any vim users here? Vim has a jump list where it tracks big moves, but that's not really what I need. Is there an edit location list where I can find the places I've edited in the file previously?
10:31:26 <zgrep> FireFly: Agh! [)))
10:32:22 <FireFly> b_jonas: well, it has an undo tree that you can query for some info, maybe it includes position
10:32:28 <FireFly> I wouldn't know how to use it though
10:33:14 <FireFly> There's a plugin called gundo that visualizes the undo tree and allows you to jump around in it
10:34:09 <b_jonas> I'd like commands like prevpos and nextpos in joe-editor, which let me quickly jump to places of previous edits. It's very convenient but few editors seem to have it.
10:34:26 <b_jonas> Lets you avoid setting bookmarks a lot.
10:34:44 <FireFly> That sounds useful, yeah
10:35:37 <FireFly> http://stackoverflow.com/a/2131407/1267058 oh.
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10:37:15 <b_jonas> FireFly: ah, that says g, might do that
10:37:49 <FireFly> It seems to work, toyed around with it a bit
10:37:50 <b_jonas> g ; for previous and g , for next. strange assignments
10:38:22 <b_jonas> but they make sense
10:38:25 <FireFly> Probably related to the ; , commands that repeat f/F/t/T forwward/backward
10:38:44 <FireFly> But vim's assignments can be pretty weird and arbitrary sometimes
10:39:04 <FireFly> You could always remap them to something else prefixed by <Leader> if you prefer
10:49:26 <boily> g? is the best g.
10:51:54 <boily> @massages-loud
10:51:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 19m 50s ago: No.
10:51:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 14m 27s ago: RE: matching.
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15:32:42 <rdococ> |a + ct| = √(a² / c²)
15:32:47 <rdococ> so what is t*t?
15:32:56 <rdococ> well,
15:33:35 <rdococ> |1 + tt| = sqrt(1 / t^2)
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15:44:07 <myname> did you resolve ©?
15:45:37 <rdococ> sgeo told us that @ was inspired by time dimension and so we come up with |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b| --- the last part was someone else's idea from another channel
15:48:38 <rdococ> so |tt| = |0|/|t|
15:50:13 <rdococ> you going to help?
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16:32:40 <izabera> http://senseis.xmp.net/?TerritoryScoringOnGoServersConsideredHarmful oh em gee
16:32:47 <izabera> considered harmful essays everywhere
16:36:36 <rdococ> |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b|
16:37:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
16:38:50 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: help me with this- |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b|
16:38:56 <rdococ> I want to find out t^2
16:39:06 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: OK
16:39:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You don't have ANY constants
16:39:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Try defining a and b to appropriate numbers and working from there
16:39:50 <rdococ> no, t is like i but different
16:39:59 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: |t|=-1, right?
16:40:24 <rdococ> |t| = sqrt(0 / 1) = |0|/|1| = 0 now
16:40:44 <rdococ> and |a + 0t| = sqrt(a^2 / 0) = sqrt(infinity)
16:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: If |t|=0, then doesn't that just make t=0?
16:41:04 <rdococ> not really
16:41:04 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Or t=k
16:41:12 <rdococ> |a + 0| =/= |a + 0t|
16:41:13 <hppavilion[1]> (k^2=0, k!=0)
16:41:17 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
16:41:28 <rdococ> no, wait
16:41:46 <rdococ> |a + 0| = |a + 0t|
16:41:48 <rdococ> but
16:41:51 <rdococ> no
16:41:53 <rdococ> ye
16:42:09 <rdococ> |0| = sqrt(0/0) = ???
16:42:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:42:16 <rdococ> |t| = sqrt(0/1) = 0
16:42:19 <hppavilion[1]> "And now there is non-binary sex. I guess that would be "analog sex"..."
16:42:25 <rdococ> in my system |0| =/= 0
16:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> s/"analog sex"/\\"analog sex\\"/
16:42:56 <myname> so... |2t| = 0, but |t + t| = -1
16:43:01 <hppavilion[1]> (sex is gender in this case, not the act between bored teenagers)
16:43:15 <rdococ> |t + t| = sqrt(0 / 2^2) = 0
16:43:23 <rdococ> 2t = t+t
16:43:26 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: How does |0| != 0? What's |0|?
16:43:31 <rdococ> |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b|
16:43:46 <rdococ> |0| = sqrt(0 / 0)
16:43:56 <myname> in t+t, a is t and b is 1, in 2t, a is 0 and b is 2
16:44:01 <rdococ> ignore the |a|/|b|
16:44:41 <rdococ> |t + t| = sqrt(t^2 / 1) = t...
16:45:01 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So |0| = r for all r in R
16:45:03 <rdococ> |2t| = sqrt(0 / 4) = |t + t| = sqrt(t^2 / 1)
16:45:08 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: yes
16:45:11 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: 0/0 can be said to equal any R
16:45:31 <rdococ> sqrt(0 / 4) = sqrt(t^2) = t...??????? what
16:45:41 <rdococ> 0 = t
16:45:49 <rdococ> wth
16:46:07 <rdococ> my original definition was |a + bt| = √(a² - b²)
16:47:24 <rdococ> but that would make it as easy to go 10000 miles in 10001 seconds than to go 1 miles in 2 seconds, whereas the second one is much harder
16:47:33 <rdococ> so I changed it to |a + bt| = √(a² / b²)
16:48:34 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: One of the benefits of @ that t seems to lack is that @ is logical and straightforward; it just has one little gotcha that makes it different, but that can be explained in a single equation with exactly 1 operation (assuming -1 is syntactically a number, not "apply negation to 1")
16:48:48 <rdococ> |@| = -1?
16:48:50 <hppavilion[1]> @ can be explained as |@| = -1
16:48:52 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes
16:48:57 <rdococ> so
16:49:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You are yet to clearly explain t to me.
16:49:13 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: And you have to establish all these other rules in the process
16:49:19 <hppavilion[1]> i has the same property: i^2 = -1
16:49:30 <rdococ> we recently found out that sgeo's latest definition for @ is |a + b@| = √(a² - b²)
16:49:44 <hppavilion[1]> There are other subtleties, but the straightforward part of i is just i=sqrt(-1)
16:49:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Really?
16:49:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: OK...
16:49:51 <rdococ> apparently
16:49:53 <rdococ> I think
16:49:54 <rdococ> idk
16:49:58 <rdococ> but |@| = -1
16:50:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's actually pretty interesting
16:50:17 <rdococ> |bt| = √(0² / b²) = 0
16:50:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: And much moer useful than the original
16:50:41 <rdococ> but it's not exactly the same as t
16:50:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But why the division?
16:50:56 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You have to explain that too
16:51:07 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: it should be equal difficulty to go 100 miles in 200 seconds as it is to go 10 miles in 20 seconds, t does this but @ doesn't
16:51:26 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Beautiful esonums can be explained as a single operation on them equaling a number that operation usually cannot produce
16:51:42 <rdococ> |10 + 20t| = |100 + 200t| but |10 + 20@| =/= |100 + 200@|
16:51:54 <rdococ> hmm
16:52:05 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Good point, I guess
16:52:13 <rdococ> that's why I changed it to /
16:53:02 <rdococ> another idea I had was e^fx = sinh(x) + rcosh(x) where the esonum is f
16:53:11 <rdococ> s/rcosh/fcosh/
16:53:21 <rdococ> hyperbolic sine and cosine
16:53:32 <rdococ> so it's a hyperbolic i
16:53:38 <rdococ> should I change the definition to that?
16:54:11 <\oren\> we REALLY need to make templates compile faster
16:54:14 <oerjan> @1
16:54:14 <lambdabot> Say again?
16:54:19 <oerjan> @1 What
16:54:20 <lambdabot> W|-|4T
16:54:30 <oerjan> huh
16:54:32 <oerjan> oh
16:54:41 <oerjan> @1337 I see
16:54:42 <lambdabot> i seE
16:55:19 <\oren\> @1337 i am a leet haxor
16:55:19 <lambdabot> I 4M A leE+ Hax0r
16:55:36 <\oren\> not leet enough
16:56:32 <rdococ> e ͭ ͯ = sinh(x) + tcosh(x)
16:56:40 <rdococ> like this new idea?
16:58:56 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]
17:00:20 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes?
17:00:24 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Sorry, I vanished
17:00:29 <rdococ> what about this instead - e ͭ ͯ = sinh(x) + tcosh(x)
17:00:45 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The two characters after e aren't rendering
17:01:00 <rdococ> oh
17:01:08 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Ah, it's e^tx
17:01:21 <rdococ> how'd you figure it out?
17:01:38 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: My browser still renders them, and I have the godlike powers of COPY AND PASTE
17:02:03 <rdococ> e^tx = sinh(x) + tcosh(x)
17:02:12 <rdococ> anyways
17:02:19 <rdococ> do you think the idea is better than my other one?
17:02:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It might be, I don't know
17:02:51 <oerjan> i'm not sure there isn't already a t which matches there
17:03:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Does e^jpi = 1?
17:03:09 <rdococ> but the t is an esonum
17:03:12 <\oren\> hppavilion ypu really neeed an update
17:03:20 <rdococ> you mean e^tpi?
17:03:23 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I tried
17:03:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: what's j
17:03:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No
17:03:35 <hppavilion[1]> Where j^2 = 1, j != 1
17:03:40 <rdococ> oh
17:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I was typing it, but people kept talking :P
17:04:06 <\oren\> try deleting the font in the vontrl$panel and reintaling it
17:04:31 <\oren\> sorry fpr bad spelibg[im on my phone
17:04:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: try plugging it into the series for e^x, that's my goto-definition for whether that makes sense.
17:05:05 <oerjan> (of course then you have to define the limits too)
17:05:19 -!- vanila has joined.
17:05:20 <vanila> hello
17:05:35 <hppavilion[1]> Need to close hc to delete it
17:05:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:05:43 <oerjan> > [(exp x, sinh x + cosh x) | x <- [0, 0.1 ..]]
17:05:44 <lambdabot> [(1.0,1.0),(1.1051709180756477,1.1051709180756475),(1.2214027581601699,1.221...
17:05:50 <oerjan> thought so
17:05:57 <oerjan> rdococ: t = 1 hth
17:06:37 <rdococ> e^1x = sinh(x) + cosh(x)?
17:06:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
17:06:44 <\oren\> the build failed again
17:07:00 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I deleted neoletters
17:07:07 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Had to close HC and NP++
17:07:16 <rdococ> @_@
17:07:22 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It didn't work, at least for ͭ ͯ
17:07:29 <hppavilion[1]> (And yes, I reinstalled)
17:08:12 <rdococ> e^tx = sinh(x) + tcosh(x), t =/= 1
17:08:28 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Also, the name changed from "normal" to "medium"
17:09:05 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: good it shoukd at least work with georgian noe
17:09:13 <oerjan> rdococ: the hyperbolic functions are pretty much what you get when you take the expressions for the trigonometric ones in terms of exp and remove i's everywhere
17:09:32 <\oren\> ill add those superscripts[when i get home ftom work
17:09:36 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Oh, it does :)
17:09:37 <oerjan> > [(exp (-x), sinh x - cosh x) | x <- [0, 0.1 ..]] -- testing another
17:09:38 <lambdabot> [(1.0,-1.0),(0.9048374180359595,-0.9048374180359595),(0.8187307530779818,-0....
17:09:43 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yay! It actually did update!
17:09:47 <rdococ> well
17:09:54 <rdococ> how does time rotation work
17:09:59 <oerjan> hm needs switching order, i think
17:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> (In retrospect, the reason it wouldn't update the font was probably because I had applications with it open
17:12:29 <hppavilion[1]> In other news, the new s is bugging me :P
17:12:38 <oerjan> @check \x -> exp x == sinh x + cosh (x :: Double) -- wondering if ghc uses this exactly
17:12:39 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:103:
17:12:39 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
17:12:42 <oerjan> darn
17:12:55 <\oren\> nah i did a tesy it is a bug in windows where it won't ovrwrite a otf with a ttf
17:13:28 <oerjan> @check \x -> exp x == sinh x + cosh (x :: Double)
17:13:30 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 3 tests and 4 shrinks):
17:13:30 <lambdabot> 2.4646339992384982
17:13:37 <oerjan> hm apparently not
17:13:37 <\oren\> for some goddamn reason
17:13:52 <rdococ> what about this instead? t = i^2, t =/= -1
17:15:11 <oerjan> rdococ: that violates basic equality laws, which are logic not arithmetic.
17:15:35 <rdococ> I don't see that stopping any other people from doing stuff like it
17:15:45 <oerjan> thataway lies NaN and other madness.
17:15:52 <rdococ> like I saw an esonum where q^2 = 1 but q =/= 1
17:16:05 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's different
17:16:10 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: And it's called "j"
17:16:25 <oerjan> rdococ: that doesn't violate equality. you can have as many solutions to q^2 = 1 as you want in a general algebra.
17:16:39 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's one of the three 2d real algebras (or something)
17:16:45 <oerjan> of course it won't be a field if there's more than two.
17:16:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The other two are the complexes and k, which is like j but for 0
17:16:53 <rdococ> ??????
17:17:22 <rdococ> oerjan: so why can't I do sqrt(t) = i then and t =/= -1?
17:17:27 <oerjan> rdococ: but t = i^2 and i^2 = -1 imply t = -1 from pure logic.
17:17:54 <rdococ> q^2 = 1 and sqrt(1) = q
17:18:09 <rdococ> mine isn't any different
17:18:15 <vanila> ??????????????????????????????????
17:18:50 <rdococ> or ti = -i, but t =/= -1
17:19:28 <oerjan> rdococ: because sqrt a = x, is not the unique solution to x^2 = a, but if you don't have (sqrt a)^2 = a then it's not a square root.
17:19:54 <vanila> hw about this
17:19:59 <vanila> start with the ring Z
17:20:07 <vanila> then take the 'algebraic esoclosure'
17:20:13 <rdococ> okay, I'm using the ti = -i definition along with t =/= -1
17:20:20 <vanila> which is where you add infinityl many distinct solutions to every algebraic equation
17:20:26 <oerjan> rdococ: the point is, to get i^2 to be t you have to redefine i^2 which already exists.
17:20:52 <rdococ> oh...
17:20:55 <rdococ> uh...
17:21:08 <vanila> What do you think?
17:21:11 <rdococ> but there's nothing stopping me from breaking that rule and giving it two solutions
17:21:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:21:20 <rdococ> but anyway
17:21:45 <rdococ> ti = -i but t =/= -1...
17:21:56 <rdococ> ...
17:22:00 <rdococ> ah nevermind
17:22:50 <oerjan> rdococ: ok, just define 2+2 = t while you're at it.
17:23:12 <rdococ> yes good idea
17:23:15 <rdococ> 2 + 2 = t
17:23:17 <rdococ> t - 2 = 2
17:23:19 <rdococ> t / 2 = 2
17:23:22 <vanila> hi
17:23:23 <rdococ> t * 2 = 2
17:23:27 <rdococ> t / 5 = 2
17:24:07 <oerjan> vanila: way ahead of you, it seems.
17:24:13 <vanila> ?
17:24:20 <oerjan> or perhaps crashing high speed into the same point.
17:25:07 <oerjan> (as usual, the real challenge is to end up with anything actually interesting.)
17:25:40 <oerjan> rather than a chaotic mess where everything is equally true.
17:26:00 <vanila> 0=1
17:27:12 <oerjan> make it 1=2 and we can summon pope russell
17:27:19 <rdococ> sin(q) = 2
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17:27:32 <rdococ> stop vanishing
17:27:40 <rdococ> sin(q) = 2
17:28:23 <oerjan> sin(e) q(ua) non
17:28:43 <rdococ> hmm
17:29:21 <rdococ> here it says that in the Minkowski metric, time is imaginary
17:29:39 <rdococ> |x + (y + ti)i|
17:30:16 <rdococ> |x + (y + ti)i| = |x + yi - t|...
17:31:32 <quintopia> sine qua omnes est
17:32:06 <quintopia> im no good at latin
17:33:47 * oerjan summons john cleese to teach quintopia
17:34:21 <oerjan> WITHOUT WHICH THEY ALL IT IS?
17:34:55 <oerjan> actually the IT is redundant
17:34:57 <hppavilion[1]> DANCE THE WAX TADPOLE
17:35:10 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: *BITE
17:35:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: THAT's what it is
17:36:46 <hppavilion[1]> `addquote <coca-cola> bite the wax tadpole
17:37:20 <HackEgo> 1274) <coca-cola> bite the wax tadpole
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17:56:13 <prooftechnique> "female horse fastened with wax"
17:57:08 <quintopia> i probably meant sine qua omnia est
17:57:28 <oerjan> quintopia: still using a singular verb, there
17:57:57 <oerjan> you just changed the gender of omnia
17:57:57 <b_jonas> no, it's fastened with a staple
17:58:10 <quintopia> i think omnia is singular
17:58:15 <quintopia> it is in english
17:58:27 <quintopia> wait
17:58:27 <oerjan> quintopia: no, it is neuter plural nominative
17:58:32 <quintopia> hmm
17:58:37 <prooftechnique> omnia is plural in nominative, accusative, and vocative
17:58:39 <quintopia> fine have your sunt
17:59:05 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/omnis#Declension
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17:59:17 <quintopia> but i dont really want omnia thrn
17:59:28 <oerjan> `? thrn
17:59:28 <prooftechnique> What are you trying to say?
17:59:37 <quintopia> i want the equivalent of english "everything"
17:59:39 <HackEgo> thrn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:59:52 <oerjan> quintopia: omne, then.
17:59:58 <prooftechnique> totum?
18:00:01 <oerjan> or that.
18:00:07 <quintopia> totum est?
18:00:16 <prooftechnique> What's the sentence supposed to be?
18:00:30 <quintopia> without which everything is
18:02:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:02:35 <prooftechnique> Doesn't sine take the ablative?
18:03:05 <quintopia> probs bobs
18:03:11 <oerjan> isn't qua ablative
18:03:24 <quintopia> most like
18:03:50 <b_jonas> `? latin
18:04:03 <HackEgo> latin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:04:12 <prooftechnique> Oh, duh. There are like 3 quis in Latin, and I mixed them up
18:04:56 <HackEgo> No output.
18:05:00 <oerjan> oops
18:05:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'latina': LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI
18:05:10 <oerjan> hm
18:05:10 <shachaf> le/rn: print better output twh
18:05:24 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/latin{a,}
18:05:26 <HackEgo> No output.
18:06:38 <prooftechnique> I think sine qua omne est is probably the closest.
18:06:39 <shachaf> le/rn is taking over
18:06:46 <shachaf> even your beloved learn is not immune
18:06:53 <oerjan> ;_;
18:07:35 <prooftechnique> In Latin, learning is disco, baby
18:10:01 <shachaf> `? le/rn
18:10:03 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
18:10:04 <prooftechnique> `` ln -s bin/slashlearn bin/disce
18:10:09 <HackEgo> No output.
18:10:23 <shachaf> That wisdom entry is outdated now.
18:10:24 <oerjan> <b_jonas> In underload, is it possible to store data in the source code at four bits per source code character density such that the program can decode it unambiguously? <-- of course not, there are only 9 command characters and no way to decode non-command ones. also some combinations are nops or infinite loops so you have to avoid them.
18:10:34 <prooftechnique> `disce Learning is disco, baby.
18:10:34 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: disce: not found
18:10:41 <prooftechnique> Oh, boo
18:10:59 <oerjan> you can store 1 bit per character, though, as i did in the rule 110 program.
18:11:50 <Caesura> Daoyu commands fill the 4-bit space
18:12:07 <oerjan> maybe you can find a code that gives 2, i'd be surprised if 3 were possible (you'd need to be able to lose only one character possibility on average)
18:12:09 <quintopia> daoyu makes little sense
18:12:24 <Caesura> Eh, how so?
18:12:37 <Caesura> If the specification is unclear, please tell me so I can improve it
18:12:50 <quintopia> the diagrams communicate nothing
18:12:58 <Caesura> Ah, I'll fix that right now
18:13:05 <prooftechnique> `disce Learning is disco, baby.
18:13:05 <Caesura> They were a bit of a rush job
18:13:06 <HackEgo> No output.
18:13:12 <prooftechnique> `? learning
18:13:14 <HackEgo> learning? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:14:14 <prooftechnique> `? learning
18:14:15 <HackEgo> Learning is disco, baby.
18:14:17 <prooftechnique> There
18:14:36 <oerjan> prooftechnique: ooh you meant that disco literally
18:14:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: Aut disce aut discede | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Budapest.
18:15:07 <prooftechnique> I guess really the gerund is discere, but whatever hth
18:16:26 <prooftechnique> I really like that topic :)
18:16:57 <quintopia> is a real old latin verb?
18:17:05 <quintopia> "to disc"?
18:17:20 <prooftechnique> Most Latin verbs are old
18:17:31 <Caesura> disco, discere, dedici, no PPP
18:17:35 <Caesura> To teach
18:17:49 <Caesura> There is no gerund
18:17:52 <quintopia> prooftechnique except the new ones
18:17:57 <prooftechnique> Caesura: To learn
18:18:03 <Caesura> gah
18:18:17 <Caesura> doceo
18:18:20 <Caesura> got that mixed up
18:18:20 <prooftechnique> Somewhat wonderfully, dedisco is to unlearn
18:18:34 <Caesura> Doceo, docere, docui, doctus
18:18:38 <Caesura> That's to teach
18:18:45 <prooftechnique> Hence docent :)
18:18:46 <rdococ> doctus
18:19:03 <Caesura> 3rd person plural indicative active present
18:19:12 <oerjan> prooftechnique: i think "discere" is the infinitive, but wiktionary's table lists it as nominative gerund which it sort of logically is
18:19:13 <Caesura> Hence doctor, one who teaches
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18:19:41 <Caesura> Infinitives as gerunds can be done... but there isn't anything like "discendus"
18:20:11 <oerjan> Caesura: because the real gerund is not used in the nominative...
18:20:32 <Caesura> This is where I realize that I have spent the last two years unlearning the latin from the three years prior
18:20:44 <prooftechnique> I think they call it a degenerate form or something? My Latin grammar is a little hazy
18:21:00 <rdococ> m=m*2
18:21:11 <Caesura> I think that's right
18:21:59 <prooftechnique> I wish I knew more Ancient Greek, but I don't think any time I spent learning Latin was wasted
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18:22:43 <Caesura> I learned a bit of Attic Greek under the notion that it would be easier
18:22:49 <Caesura> It is not. It is not easier than Latin.
18:22:59 <oerjan> Caesura: funny, virtually all my latin grammar i learned ~ 30 years ago from a grammar i found in the town library. and i still remember much of it.
18:23:34 <Caesura> Aeorist prefixing was such a pain with greek
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18:23:48 <Caesura> I won awards in state and national competitions on Latin
18:24:10 <prooftechnique> I would really like to know what it is in the human brain that seems to lead to the mutation of "to be" and "to go" in so many languages.
18:24:11 <quintopia> wow i wouldnt have guessed you were as old as that implies.
18:24:25 <prooftechnique> oerjan: Is 31 and advanced
18:24:32 <prooftechnique> Such a strong child
18:24:34 <Caesura> I should try and keep Latin fresh in my memory with a bit more effort, hm
18:24:41 <oerjan> prooftechnique: 45
18:25:03 <quintopia> i learned it in two year-long classes 15 years ago and remember little besides vocabulary and 1st and 2nd declension suffices
18:25:40 <Caesura> I think I spent my fifth year of latin unlearning it, the more I think about that
18:25:55 <prooftechnique> I mainly just use it for passphrases, now.
18:25:59 <Caesura> The gerundive / gerund distinction never really sunk into my memory, I think :x
18:26:01 <prooftechnique> Free word order is pretty nice.
18:26:14 <Caesura> Gerundive is the non-nominative, the noun of "to verb," right
18:26:31 <Caesura> No, isn't that the gerund
18:26:40 <Caesura> Ah, self-demonstration
18:26:56 <prooftechnique> Gerund is -ing, gerundive is the adjectival form
18:28:04 <oerjan> <Caesura> disco, discere, dedici, no PPP <-- hm are you saying wiktionary's table is erroneous, then
18:28:20 <prooftechnique> Though Romans were goofs and sometimes used the gerundive in place of the gerund for euphony
18:28:25 <prooftechnique> This kills the translator
18:28:27 <ais523> any april 1 stuff worth checking out this year?
18:29:19 <prooftechnique> Personally, I can't wait to see what my talky box from Amazon has cooked up while I've been at work. It has the power to call my phone, so I expect prank calls.
18:30:31 <prooftechnique> oerjan: PPP is the past participle, which disco does not have.
18:30:47 <vanila> ais523, you can telnet read wikipedia
18:31:04 <vanila> and this https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7511
18:31:04 <prooftechnique> Though it does have a passive one, so...
18:31:10 <int-e> fungot: smile!
18:31:11 <fungot> int-e: what is that?
18:31:26 <prooftechnique> fungot: What do you like on pizza?
18:31:26 <fungot> prooftechnique: i have a drug overdose? wah, that spoils it even more simply in our new language
18:31:37 <ais523> vanila: telnet wikipedia actually seems potentially useful
18:31:41 <ais523> I hope they keep it around
18:31:44 <APic> Yah
18:31:48 <vanila> ais523, there is already a gopher wikipedia
18:31:50 <ais523> I mean, you could telnet to port 80 but it's annoying
18:31:57 <APic> True.
18:32:41 <prooftechnique> ais523: connection refused :(
18:32:48 <ais523> huh, RFC MMI syntax has a MIGHT?
18:32:54 <ais523> Agora uses MAY for that
18:34:15 <ais523> someone posted a patch for a leftpad(2) syscall to the Linux kernel
18:34:25 <ais523> that was at least mildly amusing
18:34:25 <Caesura> The wikipedia table lists the supine... hmmm
18:34:34 <ais523> the kernel devs are pretending to take it seriously
18:35:09 <Caesura> We were taught with the fourth principal part as the PPP
18:35:46 <b_jonas> ais523: ouch...
18:35:53 <b_jonas> leftpad system call
18:36:21 <b_jonas> did they also post a libc wrapper with userspace emulation as fallback to the gnu libc mailing lists?
18:36:32 <ais523> come to think of it they shuld probably implement it in the vDSO
18:36:36 <ais523> b_jonas: not that I saw
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18:49:49 <rdococ> hmm
18:50:23 <rdococ> what about an esoteric programming language that's turing complete because of its esonums
18:50:41 <ais523> what's an esonum?
18:51:04 <APic> 42
18:51:09 <rdococ> a number defined to behave like a number, but slightly different
18:51:14 <APic> Seriously.
18:51:22 <APic> Marvin Minsky
18:51:28 <vanila> rdococ, that's a really cool idea i like it
18:51:33 <rdococ> e.g. an esonum called @ could do this - |@| = -1
18:51:47 <vanila> rdococ, did you hear my idea about alg. esoclosure
18:51:53 <rdococ> don't think it was my idea
18:52:44 <rdococ> an esolang with addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponentiation and i
18:52:52 <rdococ> 3+2i^5i
18:52:57 <rdococ> e^i
18:53:08 <vanila> #^@
18:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> p sure you can have a TC esolang just with reals and equality...
18:53:26 <vanila> what about a programing lanugage based on counter examples to tarskis high school algebra problem?
18:53:31 <vanila> the number system
18:53:50 <rdococ> what about
18:53:52 <vanila> those are surely esonumbers
18:54:04 <rdococ> a programming language that doesn't need to evaluate things to manipulate them
18:54:14 <Phantom_Hoover> you mean haskell?
18:54:27 <rdococ> it would be able to detect that 3+2 = 4+1 without evaluating either for example
18:54:55 <rdococ> a better example is 3+2+x = 5+x
18:55:12 <rdococ> it would be able to do that without evaluating x
18:56:02 <Phantom_Hoover> how do you tell which bits to evaluate
18:56:40 <rdococ> super lazy evaluation - if there's any way round evaluating something, do that way
18:57:00 <rdococ> 3+2+x = 5+x for example - you might need to evaluate 3+2, but not x
18:57:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daoyu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46712&oldid=46696 * Kaynato * (+1059) Clarifications (replaced diagrams)
18:57:53 <rdococ> e^sqrt(-1)x would equal sin(x) + sqrt(-1)cos(x) without evaluating sqrt(-1)
18:58:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
18:58:06 <rdococ> say |@| = -1, no error there either
18:58:56 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:59:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Kaynato * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Daoyu Symbol Table.png]]": Irrelevant information removed
18:59:39 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: we were just discussing super lazy evaluation - an idea where a programming language would try its absolute hardest not to evaluate something, it's almost not lazy
18:59:55 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, I've heard of that
19:00:08 <vanila> how would it know what not to evaluate?
19:00:11 <rdococ> e.g. in such a language, a computer would detect that e^sqrt(-1)x = sin(x) + sqrt(-1)cos(x) without ever knowing that sqrt(-1) = i
19:00:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Ultimate Lazy Evaluation just prints out the program and tells you to "do it your fucking self"
19:00:22 <Caesura> quintopia: Is this better?
19:00:35 <rdococ> vanila: it wouldn't evaluate anything, just manipulate, simplify and stuff
19:01:21 <rdococ> (1/0)/0 = 1, and it wouldn't even know that 1/0 evaluates to an error
19:01:25 -!- jaboja has joined.
19:01:38 <Caesura> You're talking about symbolic computation?
19:01:38 <rdococ> s/(1/0)/0/1/(1/0)/
19:01:40 <rdococ> yes
19:01:49 <Caesura> Pretty sure you can set that up with Wolfram
19:02:07 <rdococ> yes but it detects stuff like 1/0
19:02:19 <rdococ> mine would be too lazy to realize that 1/0 evaluates to an error
19:02:25 <\oren\> huh theres a vuln in emacs this time?
19:02:27 <Caesura> With some redefinitions you coul do that also
19:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, so i guess you just try every evaluation order possible until you get a normalised expression?
19:03:29 <rdococ> perhaps...?
19:03:36 <rdococ> maybe it could use substitution
19:03:42 <rdococ> e.g. 1/1/x = x
19:03:59 <rdococ> or (x^y)^z = x^yz
19:04:01 <Caesura> Wolfram evaluates 1/(1/0) to be 0, it seems
19:04:24 <Caesura> Although it also WARNS you that 1/0 is encountered, it doesn't break the entire thing
19:04:53 <rdococ> oh, right, 1/1/0 = 0
19:04:59 <rdococ> wolfram is right
19:05:12 <Caesura> It is very powerful for symbolic computation
19:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, well i mean at this stage it's not actually true
19:05:13 <rdococ> but it's eager enough to warn you
19:05:18 <Caesura> Yes
19:05:27 <Phantom_Hoover> e.g. (x^y)^z is not true for general real exponents
19:05:56 <rdococ> it's not?
19:06:19 <rdococ> (x^y)^z = x^(y+z)?
19:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> ((-1)^2)^0.5 is not equal to (-1)^1
19:06:23 <rdococ> I can't remember
19:06:37 <rdococ> you need to add them, right?
19:06:55 <Caesura> No, that's for multiplying exponents of equal bases
19:06:58 <prooftechnique> \oren\: What vuln?
19:07:02 <prooftechnique> Also check the date, just in case
19:07:07 <rdococ> huh...
19:07:15 <Phantom_Hoover> the issue with doing e.g. the 1/0 trick you mentioned is that if you specify all these substitution rules you can evaluate 1/0 to get contradictory values
19:07:16 <rdococ> then what is (x^y)^z?
19:07:29 <Caesura> @PH Yes, thus indeterminate forms
19:07:29 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
19:07:32 <Phantom_Hoover> it's (x^y)^z, that's all you can say
19:07:38 <rdococ> oh
19:07:41 <rdococ> okay
19:08:49 <rdococ> infact, why not make the numbers mathematical symbols?
19:08:59 <\oren\> prooftechnique: i just got a work email saying dont use emacs
19:09:22 <\oren\> i use nano anyway
19:11:14 <rdococ> who knew sqrt(-1) could be so useful
19:12:10 <Caesura> You have heard of Cayley-Dickson construction?
19:12:19 <Caesura> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%E2%80%93Dickson_construction
19:12:41 <vanila> no i havent
19:12:46 <vanila> would you recommend it?
19:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but after a certai point the results of that can't be called 'numbers'
19:13:04 <vanila> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski%27s_high_school_algebra_problem
19:13:06 <vanila> check this one out
19:13:07 <vanila> this is really fun
19:13:13 <Caesura> Yes, true, but the first few steps provide useful constructs
19:13:31 <Caesura> The Geometric Algebra is much more powerful, however, in my own personal opinion
19:13:52 -!- Reece` has joined.
19:17:29 <Caesura> Anyway, if I could ask for feedback
19:17:43 <Caesura> Is the current specification of Daoyu understandable and clear
19:17:46 <\oren\> that list of axioms is bullshit. i was taught plenty about subtraction and negative numbrts in high school
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19:18:15 <rdococ> isn't subtraction just adding negative numbers?
19:18:36 <prooftechnique> \oren\: I'm leaning toward work pranks on that email
19:19:14 <\oren\> right. but that list is missing --x = x for example
19:19:51 <\oren\> and x - y = x + -y
19:20:03 <rdococ> :/
19:20:06 <rdococ> true
19:26:29 <\oren\> it shoukd be called tarskis alternate universe high school problem, where subtraction is a university discipline
19:29:25 <\oren\> ofc one day we might consider complex numbers to be a high school subject
19:29:32 <Caesura> they are
19:29:42 <\oren\> not in canada
19:29:51 <Caesura> Strange
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19:38:01 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: α-expressions are fun
19:38:11 <hppavilion[1]> (s/// is a well-known α-expression)
19:38:31 <hppavilion[1]> (y/// is less well-known, and m// is not used at all)
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20:03:44 <rdococ> what about a language where there are no conditionals and you have to execute arbritary code stored in lookup tables
20:06:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:09:32 <b_jonas> ais523: have anyone examined how densely you can embed information in underload source code such that the underload program can decode it?
20:09:52 <ais523> b_jonas: it's possible to manage at least one bit per character
20:10:07 <b_jonas> ais523: I think you can manage two bits per char at least, but I haven't made a proof
20:10:08 <ais523> IIRC somewhere oerjan made a parser for strings of : and ^
20:10:28 <ais523> going higher there isn't an obvious method, but that doesn't mean there isn't a non-obvious one
20:10:29 <b_jonas> I should examine it, I don't understand underload enough and this seems like a thing that lets me explore it
20:11:14 <ais523> well reaching three bits per character is obviously impossible
20:11:20 <b_jonas> ais523: I think I'll try to decode strings made of ~ ! : *
20:11:24 <ais523> so the true value is ≥ 1 and < 3
20:11:32 <b_jonas> ais523: you could receive fractional bits
20:11:40 <ais523> b_jonas: !~~ and ~~! are eqivalent
20:11:45 <b_jonas> and it doesn't have to be stateless, if parenthesis are involved
20:11:46 <ais523> b_jonas: sure, I expect the number of bits to be fractional
20:11:59 <ais523> also ~~ and :! are equivalent
20:12:12 <ais523> and :*:* is equivalent to :::***
20:12:17 <b_jonas> ais523: no no, if the string (supposed you know the length) is parenthisized, you execute it, then the characters get pushed into the stack, and you can execute them one by one
20:12:25 <b_jonas> ais523: as in, you can use a to parenthisize them
20:12:41 <ais523> b_jonas: a parameterizes an entire stack element, it doesn't break the string into characters
20:12:49 <ais523> ~~ and :! are equivalent; (~~) and (:!) are also equivalent
20:12:53 <ais523> and both equivalent to ()
20:12:58 <b_jonas> you, but ^ opens the parenthesis, doesn't it?
20:13:14 <ais523> b_jonas: it just moves the contents of the TOS onto the program
20:13:27 <ais523> (~~)^ is equivalent to (:!)^ is equivalent to ~~ is equivalent to :!
20:13:32 <ais523> none of them do anything :-P
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20:13:51 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and if that element it moved is a parenthesisized block, then doesn't executing the block push each of the elements to the stack?
20:14:07 <oerjan> b_jonas: you did notice my comment about underload to you above, right?
20:14:31 <ais523> b_jonas: if you move ((~~)) to the program you end up with (~~) in the program, which then pushes (~~) to the stack
20:14:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: ah... I didn't
20:14:45 <ais523> can you give an example of what you're /expecting/ to happen? it feels like you have some sort of fundamental misconception here
20:14:51 <oerjan> that rule 110 program is the :^ parser
20:16:02 <ais523> come to think of it, I suspect that strings of :^a are parseable
20:16:07 <ais523> I'd be pretty surprised if they weren't
20:16:19 <ais523> oh, except if you have a then ^
20:16:22 <ais523> with nothing in between
20:16:25 <ais523> as that's a no-op
20:16:27 <oerjan> ais523: no. right.
20:16:59 <oerjan> i concluded : and a were parseable, but more complicated than what i did, and also uglier.
20:17:00 <ais523> and strings like a:^ would also cause problems
20:17:16 <oerjan> but no other 2 character combinations work
20:17:19 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:17:24 <ais523> :a is obviously parseable, because the result of a never affects the second stack element
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20:17:40 <ais523> meaning that you can create a sentinel value that does to act as your zero
20:17:40 <b_jonas> ais523: I expect that the program (xy) puts x and y to the stack (x on top), so (xy)!^ will try to execute y, and (xy)~!^ will try to execute x
20:18:00 <ais523> b_jonas: ah, right, your problem is that the stack isn't a stack of characters
20:18:03 <ais523> it's a stack of strings
20:18:12 <ais523> (xy) pushes a single element, xy, to the stack
20:18:17 <ais523> then ^ moves that element as a whole into the program
20:18:22 <b_jonas> sure, it's a stack of strings because ((xy)) pushes a single string (xy) to the stack
20:18:38 <ais523> normally we put parens around each stack element when discussing Underload
20:18:39 <b_jonas> doesn't executing a parenthesis open it to the stack?
20:18:42 <oerjan> i forgot that S is useless, so you have only 8 usable chars, so clearly 3 bits is impossible, right
20:18:47 <b_jonas> oh...
20:18:52 <b_jonas> what the heck is the point of that?
20:18:53 <ais523> oerjan: and ( and ) have to be paired
20:18:57 <b_jonas> why doesn't it open the parens
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20:19:05 <ais523> b_jonas: because that would be an entirely different language
20:19:08 <b_jonas> I mean, if you don't want to open the parens, you can just a^ instead of ^
20:19:27 <ais523> actually in Underlambda I'm going the other way, removing S
20:19:45 <b_jonas> this makes underload much harder to program
20:19:47 <ais523> this allows you to optimize code both inside the stack and inside the program
20:19:48 <b_jonas> and indeed very different
20:19:48 <ais523> it becomes a pure functional language because the stack elemenets are entirely opaque
20:20:29 <oerjan> ais523: ( and ) pairing is not _really_ a problem as i think that gives only o(something) contribution to the no. of bits.
20:20:32 <b_jonas> ais523: yep
20:20:34 <b_jonas> crazy
20:20:42 <oerjan> but any nop like :! is fatal
20:21:01 <ais523> b_jonas: Underload's meant to be about function representation, not string manipulation
20:21:18 <b_jonas> ais523: it's not "string manipulation", more like tree manipulation
20:21:23 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:21:34 <b_jonas> because it manipulates elements that are either letters or parenthisized trees
20:21:45 <b_jonas> it doesn't manipulate individual characters of a tree
20:21:52 <ais523> right
20:21:55 <ais523> actually Overload worked like that
20:22:12 <b_jonas> did I accidentally invent a language?
20:23:19 <ais523> perhaps, I don't like it though :-(
20:23:23 <rdococ> what about a language where a sentence is an array of words
20:23:26 <ais523> the set of commands doesn't make much sense in this language
20:23:27 <rdococ> and a word has a meaning
20:23:31 <ais523> you'd probably want a string compare command too, at least
20:23:36 <rdococ> e.g.
20:23:43 <rdococ> the cat ate the dog
20:23:56 <rdococ> cat is the noun, ate is the verb, dog is the subject, or victim
20:24:17 <b_jonas> ais523: no no, not a string compare command
20:24:25 <b_jonas> I'd want a nop command though, probably space and newline
20:24:42 <b_jonas> make that space, tab, lf, cr
20:24:58 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
20:25:22 <ais523> b_jonas: this is like having C, plus a command that breaks a function pointers into individual asm opcodes in the function it points to
20:25:30 <ais523> and yet have no way to determine what those opcodes are other than executing them
20:26:22 <b_jonas> I'm reminded to two obfus in other languages: the lua one I wrote that uses the same string as both code and data so that if you try to tamper with the code then the output breaks completely, and pts's obfu in dc which uses the same strings as both code and data: dc can't really examined things so I thought that was impossible, but it turns out dc has a length command that queries the length of a string
20:27:28 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I can see why you don't like that concept
20:27:51 <ais523> it's just a mix of paradigms that doesn't make sense
20:27:56 <ais523> it's inelegant
20:27:57 <b_jonas> yep
20:28:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: dinner).
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20:32:39 <b_jonas> ais523?
20:32:50 <oerjan> he left.
20:33:44 <int-e> `quote raspberry
20:34:05 <HackEgo> No output.
20:36:11 <int-e> `quote berry
20:36:13 <HackEgo> 471) <itidus20> lets not wander around the mulberry bush beating our heads
20:36:29 <int-e> fungot: do you know any berries?
20:36:29 <fungot> int-e: ( and i've only seen ocean from far above in a positive light)
20:36:39 <int-e> `quote berri
20:36:41 <HackEgo> No output.
20:37:02 <oerjan> perhaps it was deleted.
20:37:02 <b_jonas> so in the description of Underload at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Commands , the stack top is on the right, not on the left like other such descriptions usually denote, right?
20:37:18 <int-e> that sounds very malancholic, fungot.
20:37:18 <fungot> int-e: the description sounds like fnord talk to me instead
20:37:21 <b_jonas> fungot, which episode?
20:37:21 <fungot> b_jonas: proposals only last 15 minutes of fame? guile? you don't get special food, but they look exactly the same for cl, not fnord two of those
20:37:37 <b_jonas> fungot: have you read the SIGBOVIK 2016 proceedings?
20:37:37 <fungot> b_jonas: http://www.fourmilab.ch/ hotbits/ with fnord key and browser with fnord?) has a problem. whom should it be:
20:37:39 <oerjan> b_jonas: i thought on the right was standard forth-notation?
20:37:58 <shachaf> Oh, SIGBOVIK is today.
20:38:12 <b_jonas> oerjan: I don't know
20:38:14 <int-e> fools!
20:38:28 <oerjan> int-e: will you show them all?
20:38:41 <int-e> oerjan: no I'm just waiting for this stupid day to pass.
20:39:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: I guess top on right makes sense in a forth/postscript-like language where lots of statements are literal so just push on the stack, so the stack often looks similar to the code
20:40:08 <shachaf> int-e: What's wrong with today?
20:40:15 <shachaf> `olist 1032
20:40:16 <HackEgo> olist 1032: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:40:31 <oerjan> b_jonas: anyway half the point of the notation we've settled on is that it makes it easy to see underload execution as a program transformation - where stack elements don't need to be distinguished from the program.
20:40:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: right
20:41:07 <b_jonas> and it seems that http://www.cs.cornell.edu/icfp/task.htm puts the stack top on the right as well
20:41:30 <shachaf> april fools!
20:41:35 <shachaf> this is great
20:41:38 <b_jonas> it's just not so obvious from descriptions like this because most operations would make sense to define with the inputs in any order
20:41:40 <FireFly> int-e: #ircpuzzles is a good way to spend April 1 (and 2 and 3 and.. well, it usually takes a while to solve them)
20:41:49 <b_jonas> and in any case you can permute the stack top elements before running the command
20:41:52 <FireFly> (it's a yearly tradition to have puzzles on April 1)
20:41:56 <shachaf> FireFly: HireFly
20:41:57 <Taneb> I am awful at writing documentation]
20:42:01 <FireFly> hachaf
20:42:07 <Taneb> Especially when it's a program which I know how it works
20:42:27 <Taneb> And didn't intend anyone else to use it when I was writing it
20:42:53 <FireFly> noh that was an evil olist
20:44:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46714&oldid=40261 * B jonas * (+5)
20:44:16 <shachaf> FireFly: sorry
20:44:58 <oerjan> shachaf: you may have had your fun, but what about YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL?
20:45:15 <shachaf> oerjan: what about it?
20:45:28 <oerjan> it may be in peril tdnh
20:45:58 <shachaf> didn't you just say it was immortal
20:47:00 <oerjan> yes, but not pain resistant
20:47:26 * Taneb is finally writing a page for COMPLEX
20:48:12 * Taneb has largely forgotten the art of wiki page writing
20:51:21 <rdococ> who needs conditionals
20:51:39 * Taneb needs conditionals
20:52:00 <rdococ> you could remove the IF from Lua and it'd still be turing complete
20:53:15 <rdococ> proof: local code = {true = function () print("yay") end, false = function () print("nay") end}; code[3 > 2]
20:53:32 <rdococ> so
20:53:56 <rdococ> say bye to for loops too
20:54:18 <rdococ> and any other non-necessary construct
20:54:34 <rdococ> I will strip Lua and make a turing tarpit called TarLua... or EsoLua...
20:55:03 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:57:42 <b_jonas> ais523: it turns out that one thing that confused me about underload is this: in the (stackbefore – stackafter) style description of stack-based language operations, including underload at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Commands , the stack is listed with the top of stack on the right, but this isn't obvious at first.
20:58:08 <ais523> b_jonas: this is standard for Underload; I'm not sure if it's mentioned on the page
20:58:13 <ais523> I write it in most of my writing about it though
21:01:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46715&oldid=46711 * Iconmaster * (+2538) Got a lot of information from the site onto the wiki
21:02:51 <b_jonas> ] 3*9500
21:02:59 -!- evalj has joined.
21:03:02 <b_jonas> ] 3*9500
21:03:02 <evalj> b_jonas: 28500
21:07:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:08:20 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
21:13:06 <hppavilion[1]> Fuzzy String Matching is interesting
21:14:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46716&oldid=46714 * Iconmaster * (+10) Stub'd
21:15:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pylongolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46717&oldid=46708 * Iconmaster * (+34) Stub'd
21:15:56 <rdococ> pylongolf
21:15:57 <rdococ> gml
21:16:10 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!).
21:16:11 <Taneb> Do we have a stub template?
21:16:19 <Taneb> I can't be bothered to write this article right now
21:16:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46718&oldid=46707 * Iconmaster * (+10) Stub'd
21:17:02 -!- iconmaster has joined.
21:19:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Iconmaster]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46719&oldid=37163 * Iconmaster * (-75)
21:22:41 <iconmaster> Hello. Suddenly felt like coming back and helping with some wiki stuff. How's it going?
21:24:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bulan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46720 * Rdococ * (+925) It's still Turing complete. I think. I'll leave the exercise of proving that it's TC up to you.
21:24:58 <myname> https://youtu.be/QScVVDwxSWA procrastinating like a pro
21:27:26 -!- jaboja has joined.
21:29:49 <\oren\> i ordered a elektronika mk-61 calculator
21:33:16 -!- iconmaster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:33:40 -!- Reece` has joined.
21:33:52 <oerjan> Taneb: yes.
21:35:39 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit).
21:39:27 <zgrep> \oren\: A soviet calculator, neat.
21:40:11 <Taneb> oerjan, how do I apply the stub template
21:40:35 <oerjan> myname: NOW WE KNOW
21:40:50 <oerjan> Taneb: {{stub}}
21:40:59 <oerjan> HTH
21:41:06 <Taneb> TDH
21:44:19 -!- Reece` has joined.
21:44:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[COMPLEX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46721 * Taneb * (+345) Start making this article
21:44:49 -!- Reece` has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:46:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46722&oldid=46691 * Taneb * (+14) /* C */ Add COMPLEX
21:47:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nathan van Doorn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46723&oldid=35933 * Taneb * (+13) Add COMPLEX
21:48:01 <hppavilion[1]> I'm attempting to make a regex family called Irgex, with support for 2D matching and TC matching and all of these nice things
21:48:19 <hppavilion[1]> But with the core subset being efficient
21:48:34 <myname> actually, there are 2d regex
21:48:37 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Why limit it to the Gaussian Integers? Why not allow real values in general?
21:48:40 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I've heard
21:48:50 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Or 2D bnf. It's documented on catseye
21:50:05 <myname> i actually used these in my thesis
21:50:20 <myname> well, mentioned
21:52:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm trying to find different classes of expressions
21:53:09 <hppavilion[1]> The first I define is the π-expression, which is the traditional x+y, -z, [i], etc.
21:53:36 <hppavilion[1]> There's also the α-expression, which is a generalization of s/// and y///
21:53:38 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], reasons
21:53:47 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Ah, very good choice
21:54:10 <hppavilion[1]> I'm stuck there though. Are there any other fairly general types of expression?
21:56:22 <zgrep> For a group of esoteric language creators, I'm surprised that the wiki doesn't auto-generate the list of languages...
21:56:59 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: That'd be too straightforward
21:57:04 <zgrep> All pages that are programming languages should be put in a category (or tagged, or something) "language", and the list would automatically update...
21:57:07 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Also, we have pages that /aren't/ esolangs
21:57:14 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Ah
21:57:37 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Do you know of any other types of expression besides the traditional arithmetical and x///?
21:57:53 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Not sure exactly what you mean...
21:58:08 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: You know s/// expressions?
21:58:16 <zgrep> Regular expressions?
21:58:20 <hppavilion[1]> (I call them alpha-expressions)
21:58:24 <zgrep> Yes, but I don't know what an expression is...
21:58:27 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Those fall under arithmetical, actually
21:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: An expression is some predefined set of symbols combined with more expressions, basically
21:58:59 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:59:06 <zgrep> Ah. How... how... [insert word here].
21:59:18 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Oh, that's good
22:00:09 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:04:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:08:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fuun DNA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46724 * B jonas * (+3506) Created page with "'''Fuun DNA''' is a self-modifying string-rewriting language. It was defined for the task of the ICFP contest 2007 (“Morph Endo”). == Description == The DNA of the extr..."
22:10:11 -!- boily has joined.
22:10:17 <boily> @metar CYUL
22:10:17 <lambdabot> CYUL 012200Z 27020G27KT 15SM FEW030 FEW045 10/03 A2941 RMK CU1SC2 CU TR SLP963
22:10:24 <boily> @metar ENVA
22:10:24 <lambdabot> ENVA 012150Z 08003KT 9999 SCT045 BKN060 04/M03 Q1011 RMK WIND 670FT 18006KT
22:10:26 -!- earendel has joined.
22:11:34 -!- tromp has joined.
22:13:13 <oerjan> boily: there was snow on the ground this morning
22:13:36 * boily knocks on wood
22:13:38 <oerjan> new snow, that is. there's some old in parts.
22:14:20 <Taneb> I haven't seen snow since... last Tuesday
22:14:25 <Taneb> But that was up on some high hills
22:15:38 <boily> Tanelle. there's snow where you are at?
22:15:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:16:35 <shachaf> @metar EGNT
22:16:35 <lambdabot> EGNT 012150Z 18010KT 150V220 9999 SCT023 08/04 Q1007
22:16:50 <Taneb> boily, it was in the Lake District
22:17:06 <boily> @metar KOAK
22:17:06 <lambdabot> KOAK 012153Z 25012KT 10SM FEW025 17/08 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP222 T01670083
22:17:11 <Taneb> The bit of England with things that are almost mountains
22:17:38 <shachaf> Taneb: Is that like the Lake Union district in Seattle?
22:18:06 <shachaf> You did mention something about using Seattle public transit the other day.
22:18:40 <Taneb> I distinctly mentioned not using Seattle public transit
22:21:13 <shachaf> So how do you get around the Lake Union district?
22:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> this reddit chat thing is pretty cool
22:21:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fuun RNA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46725 * B jonas * (+1034) Created page with "'''Fuun RNA''' is a graphic description language. It was defined for the task of the ICFP contest 2007 (“Morph Endo”). == Description == The RNA of the extraterrestrial..."
22:21:34 <oerjan> i've used seattle public transit. i think.
22:21:35 <Taneb> shachaf, solid boots
22:21:41 <Phantom_Hoover> the room i ended up in got two pianists who are now playing live
22:22:11 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What's this chat thing?
22:22:15 <shachaf> oerjan: how was it
22:22:22 <shachaf> oerjan: was it before i was born or something
22:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, it's the button with the bird on it
22:22:40 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Can I find out about it without logging in?
22:22:44 <shachaf> Logging in is scow.
22:22:59 <oerjan> shachaf: were you born in 1996?
22:23:13 <shachaf> no, before
22:23:17 <shachaf> because i'm old :'(
22:23:21 <oerjan> shocking
22:23:35 <shachaf> dinochaf
22:23:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46726&oldid=46722 * B jonas * (+30) + Fuun DNA, RNA
22:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, not without scraping a bunch of idiots trying to work it out
22:25:23 * boily carbon dates shachaf
22:25:42 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
22:26:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46727&oldid=46672 * B jonas * (-95)
22:26:10 <shachaf> you can't just carbon date people
22:26:28 <oerjan> of course you can.
22:26:40 <shachaf> oerjan: not more than one at a time, if you're carbonogamous
22:27:07 <oerjan> i think you are switching the wrong part of the word tdnh
22:27:26 <shachaf> look
22:27:35 <shachaf> quantity over quality
22:27:44 <shachaf> i got a pun quota to meet here
22:28:23 <b_jonas> oerjan, ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal has a webchat link to here through qwebirc. I prefer the kiwi irc webchat to qwebirc. Should I replace the webchat link, replace the webchat link but mention qwebirc as an alternative, add a kiwi irc link as an alternative, or do nothing?
22:28:23 <oerjan> well you're doing the pun equivalent of cockney rhyming
22:28:48 <shachaf> oerjan: ok fine
22:28:49 <b_jonas> Note that kiwi irc doesn't require people to fill a captcha, which can be considered either an advantage or a disadvantage.
22:29:04 <shachaf> oerjan: you can only carbon date people if you're carbonogamous
22:29:13 <b_jonas> Do we have a category for a language that is known to be weaker than Turing complete?
22:29:23 <boily> b_jonas: PDA?
22:29:27 <b_jonas> Fuun RNA is not turing complete.
22:29:38 <b_jonas> boily: it's not equivalent to a PDA
22:29:42 <boily> shachaf: the original pun was 0.9 shachafs, but the remastered version... 0.55 shachafs.
22:29:47 <ais523> b_jonas: if there are multiple working webchats you should probably list all of them and put your favourite first
22:29:52 <boily> b_jonas: fuun?
22:30:22 <b_jonas> boily: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_RNA although that page doesn't tell enough to glaen the computational strength, you have to read the specs
22:30:46 <boily> fungot: glaen?
22:30:46 <fungot> boily: oh yeah?! well you're a funny guy, though.)
22:31:11 <b_jonas> ais523: ok. I'll test if it still works first though.
22:31:53 <oerjan> b_jonas: i thought the one that was listed was freenode's official webchat. they've blocked others on occasion i think.
22:32:01 <oerjan> (well, at least one.)
22:32:18 <shachaf> boily: what's the threshold for a mapoling
22:32:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, qwebirc is what the freenode admins themselves run, and they suggest it on their homepage
22:33:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: as in, freenode runs a qwebirc webchat server itself which lets you connect to freenode
22:33:25 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Do we have a category for a language that is known to be weaker than Turing complete? <-- not a general one, no
22:33:34 <b_jonas> But I prefer kiwiirc. Advantages include that it lets you connect to any irc network.
22:33:35 <ais523> we have specific sub-TC categories
22:33:44 <b_jonas> ais523: right
22:33:45 <ais523> and most sub-TC languages are either in one of them or very very weak
22:34:09 <oerjan> <boily> fungot: glaen? <-- like glean, but you might get a leprechaun curse if you're not careful.
22:34:10 <fungot> oerjan: oh ok. they are comparable. the resistance is useless. it's not all that magical.), tell me
22:34:28 <boily> shachaf: somewhere below 0.5, give or take a few subjective centishachafs.
22:34:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:34:49 <shachaf> is this a logarithmic unit or what
22:34:57 <b_jonas> ais523: Fuun RNA is very weak in some sense, yes
22:35:12 <b_jonas> But it has a high constant factor
22:35:44 <hppavilion[1]> I'm gonna make a big file'o buzzwords
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22:35:54 <b_jonas> It can be executed in linear amount of memory, but the constant factor is quite high because it involves 600x600 pixel 4 channel 8 bit image canvases.
22:36:03 <boily> shachaf: it's a semilogarithmic one hth
22:36:18 <hppavilion[1]> One that can be used to generate language descriptions automatically. Then I'll make it so Hackego can spit them out
22:36:18 <b_jonas> At least so I think. I'm not quote sure how Fuun RNA works really.
22:36:24 <b_jonas> You'd have ot read the specs.
22:36:33 <b_jonas> But I'm quite sure it's weaker than turing
22:36:59 <shachaf> boily: how does that work fcir
22:36:59 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
22:37:07 <wob_jonas> Does kiwi webchat work or what?
22:37:14 <b_jonas> wob_jonas: it seems so
22:37:55 <oerjan> b_jonas: linear memory fits the bounded-storage machine category
22:38:25 <boily> shachaf: it's logarithmic for the most part, but then it gets linear for things approaching zero. avoids problems with derivatives and infinite slopes.
22:38:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: which category is that? link?
22:38:49 <oerjan> wait
22:38:53 <b_jonas> ah
22:38:54 <oerjan> it's an unofficial one
22:38:56 <b_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Bounded-storage_machine
22:39:09 <oerjan> the last edit was me trying to get rid of it...
22:39:19 <b_jonas> That doesn't really say what it means, and I'd think it means constant bounded
22:39:28 <wob_jonas> ok, enough of this webchat
22:39:33 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit).
22:39:55 <b_jonas> Fuun RNA works really.
22:39:55 <b_jonas> 003624 < b_jonas> You'd have ot read the specs.
22:40:17 <b_jonas> url is https://kiwiirc.com/client/chat.freenode.net/#esoteric by the way
22:40:37 -!- Sgeo__ has joined.
22:41:37 <hppavilion[1]> What is the maximum length hackego can send as a message?
22:41:58 <\oren\> i was born in 1993
22:41:59 -!- woboily has joined.
22:42:14 <woboily> he\\oren\.
22:42:16 <shachaf> boily: 15:40 <shachaf> Oracle deprecated the Java browser plugin this year. :-(
22:42:20 <oerjan> b_jonas: ok you want linear bounded automata
22:42:24 <shachaf> 15:40 <shachaf> javascript more like java's crypt
22:42:33 * boily mapoles shachaf
22:42:37 <shachaf> ok
22:42:40 <shachaf> gotta calibrate this thing
22:42:46 <hppavilion[1]> (That moment when you search for how do do something in bash for HackEgo, but you look up how to do it in HackEgo specifically and thus get no relevant results)
22:42:53 <b_jonas> What's with xkcd today? All it says is “The xkcd April 1st comic is currently experiencing technical difficulties.” and shows wednesday's comic.
22:43:05 -!- woboily has quit (Client Quit).
22:43:43 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Either the xkcd April 1st comic is currently experiencing technical difficulties, or that's the joke
22:44:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, but Fuun RNA is probably actually weaker than a PDA (I'm not quite sure), and definitely weaker than arbitrary linear bounded machine, probably can be executed in linear time.
22:44:39 <hppavilion[1]> `` cat /dev/urandom | tr -dc 'a-zA-Z0-9' | fold -w 200 | head -n 1
22:44:41 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: that can't be the joke. there have never been a MWF with no strip.
22:44:50 <boily> hppavilion[1]: that feels weird. Randall always had nice Apriljokes.
22:44:50 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Exactly?
22:44:57 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I know...
22:45:01 <HackEgo> Mx6laZBPgxJpUlcgwwSY1G7kHxefQnSM6PVVhkb9G5OJBeDSnhKXXXBMa5v7MnG7SSirBK2SYXdYRZT9lpdeOeOS3YVRWNQ22lY7uFjAjHdf3nMFqs3UqtC6Ob5aH5kTf5bGLDUvKwDq3gJrJdZdPHr8YDxO0dFXH7hFHmiElMFP7vuRXrUUZOYFXQso6I9NSLguieFJ
22:45:06 <b_jonas> And xkcd is never experiencing technical difficulties.
22:45:14 <b_jonas> I think there's probably a comic, it's just well hidden so I can't see it.
22:45:37 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> What is the maximum length hackego can send as a message? <-- 350 bytes
22:45:38 <hppavilion[1]> One of my teachers shaved his glorious lumberjack beard, making him look 10 years younger so he could pretend to be a new student at the beginning of class by just sitting at a desk
22:45:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OK
22:45:52 <b_jonas> But the problem is, either the explainxkcd.com folks can't see it either, or for some reason they thought the joke of hiding it is funny and don't want to spoil it (yet).
22:45:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm pondering making `longcat, which prints out multiple messages
22:46:02 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, that won't work...
22:46:16 <hppavilion[1]> Unless HackEgo has some direct-to-IRC command
22:46:27 <b_jonas> there's a longcat?
22:46:34 <b_jonas> `longcat
22:46:45 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: longcat: not found
22:46:49 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I somehow did that without realizing the pun xD
22:47:04 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oh, you're "pondering making"
22:47:11 <b_jonas> whew
22:47:13 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: `longcat would be like cat, but it prints multiple messages to show the whole file.
22:47:21 <oerjan> b_jonas: anyway, most of the categories are upper bounds, so it's fine to be weaker.
22:47:26 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: yeah, but it doesn't exist
22:47:30 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Which would have potential for abuse
22:47:34 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: we have a command that pastes to a website instead
22:47:37 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: But would also be useful for long HackEgo messages
22:47:52 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: The problem is I don't think there's a way to make HackEgo print more than one message
22:48:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: but the wiki says the linear bounded automata is an equivalence actegory, not an upper bound
22:48:59 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Unless HackEgo has some direct-to-IRC command <-- nope.
22:49:01 <b_jonas> anyway, if any of you figure out which category applies (for which you may have to read and ponder the spec very carefully, for it's an esolang so the comp class may not be obvious, even after the definition), and read the wiki descriptions of categories, feel free to add it
22:49:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Didn't think so
22:50:22 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: jevalbot is also bounded output, it won't print more than 6 lines of output per evaluation command (in my default config and in evalj; j-bot has the limit raised to I don't know how many lines)
22:50:52 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: OK
22:51:39 <b_jonas> ] ,.i._65 NB. example
22:51:39 <evalj> b_jonas: 64
22:51:39 <evalj> b_jonas: 63
22:51:39 <evalj> b_jonas: 62
22:51:39 <evalj> b_jonas: 61
22:51:39 <evalj> b_jonas: 60
22:51:40 <evalj> b_jonas: ...
22:52:07 <b_jonas> You can print 6 full lines instead of an ellipsis in the sixth line, but you can't print more than six
22:52:12 <Taneb> ...do we have two different bots specifically for evaluating J
22:52:20 <b_jonas> Taneb: no, it's the same bot, two instances
22:52:26 <b_jonas> evalj, source:
22:52:26 <evalj> b_jonas, jevalbot source is http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz
22:52:30 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: That's even worse
22:52:31 <b_jonas> j-bot, source:
22:52:31 <j-bot> b_jonas, jevalbot source is http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz
22:52:46 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Why. Why do we have two identical bots?
22:52:49 <Taneb> b_jonas, I think I was using "bot" to mean "account associated with an instance of a bot"
22:52:51 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: What is the reason?
22:53:28 <b_jonas> We used to have three different irc bots that can evaluate J, namely besides jevalbot, buubot used to be able to evaluate it (I wrote the J evaluator plugin myself), plus NotJack had a bot he wrote in J.
22:53:56 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: evalj is my instance but I don't run it constantly, only very occasionally start it up and then stop it within a day when I turn off my home computer
22:53:59 <Taneb> Can EgoBot? If not, why not?
22:54:22 <b_jonas> Taneb: it would probably be possible to install a J interpreter to hackego
22:54:33 <hppavilion[1]> I can't get my IRC client to work for some reason...
22:54:34 <b_jonas> we could even do it as a user
22:54:42 <b_jonas> but it would output only 1 line per command of course
22:55:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
22:58:00 <Taneb> I'm heading to bed now
22:58:02 <Taneb> Goodnight!
22:59:28 <boily> bonne tanuitb!
22:59:37 <shachaf> @time Taneb
22:59:40 <shachaf> @tineb
22:59:51 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:02:35 <boily> @localtime Taneb
23:02:46 <boily> darn. no CTCP.
23:02:50 <boily> @localtime shachaf
23:02:52 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Fri Apr 1 16:02:50 2016
23:10:58 <zgrep> @localtime lambdabot
23:10:58 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
23:11:02 <zgrep> Yes.
23:11:22 <zgrep> @localtime zgrep
23:11:24 <zgrep> @localtime zgrep
23:11:25 <lambdabot> Local time for zgrep is Fri, 01 Apr 2016 23:11:25 GMT
23:11:31 <zgrep> Heh.
23:18:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NetBytes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46728 * Iconmaster * (+4415) Created page with "'''NetBytes''' is a language created by [[User:iconmaster]] in [[:Category:2016|2016]]. It severely limits the available memory and program length of programs, instead requir..."
23:19:38 -!- iconmaster has joined.
23:20:06 <iconmaster> Well, it's been years, but I'm finally making another esolang.
23:20:29 <hppavilion[1]> iconmaster: Cool!
23:20:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Iconmaster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46729&oldid=46719 * Iconmaster * (+64)
23:21:25 <iconmaster> So, what's been going on here lately?
23:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> iconmaster: Nothing much
23:23:28 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh
23:23:39 <hppavilion[1]> For some reason, my IRC client won't connect properly. It times out
23:23:45 <hppavilion[1]> I have a setup to handle PINGs
23:23:54 <hppavilion[1]> But I get an ERROR eventualy
23:23:59 <hppavilion[1]> s/l/ll/
23:26:16 <boily> ELLOL.
23:26:59 <iconmaster> Ellol to you too!
23:27:50 <hppavilion[1]> First issue I found: No \r\n
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23:38:01 <hppavilion[1]> YES
23:38:03 <hppavilion[1]> IT WORKED
23:39:20 <boily> hppavellon[t]!
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23:39:31 <hppavilion[1]> boily: It can't chat yet
23:39:35 <hppavilion[1]> boily: But it receives
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23:40:24 <hppavilion[1]> Test
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23:41:05 <hppavilion[1]> Retest
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23:42:07 <hppavilion[1]> Testing, testing, 123
23:42:18 <hppavilion[1]> YES!
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23:42:38 <hppavilion[1]> That's enough testing on this channel
23:42:51 <boily> you lack ambition. test more! FOR SCIENCE!
23:43:22 <hppavilion[1]> boily: *Fine*
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23:43:45 <boily> :D
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23:46:36 <quintopia> helloily
23:47:41 <boily> quinthellopia.
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23:51:31 <rdococ> bulan
23:51:52 <prooftechnique> hellodococ
23:52:48 <quintopia> what haps today
23:53:34 <prooftechnique> Does HackEgo evaluate underload?
23:54:08 <int-e> ^ul didn't this?
23:54:09 <fungot> ...bad insn!
23:54:25 <prooftechnique> Oh, fungot, what won't you do?
23:54:25 <fungot> prooftechnique: hm. that's not hardcore enough for you... but unfortunately, regardless of whether i _think_ i want a glass of merlot.
23:54:36 <prooftechnique> ^ul (test string)::**
23:55:16 <prooftechnique> Hmm
23:55:41 <prooftechnique> ^ul (test string)::**S
23:55:41 <fungot> test stringtest stringtest string
23:55:45 <prooftechnique> There we go
00:00:56 <rdococ> hi
00:01:06 <boily> rdochelloc.
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00:01:43 <boily> quintopia: you know that kind of feeling when the features you've been slaving on for the past months suddenly stop working for no apparent reason?
00:10:58 <quintopia> lololkkkkk
00:11:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Hi
00:11:55 <zgrep> `tomfoolery @
00:12:13 <quintopia> boily: lolol
00:12:19 <quintopia> what
00:12:20 <quintopia> weird
00:12:29 <HackEgo> ​|a+b@| = { √(a²-b²) if a²-b² ≥ 0 ; i√(a²-b²) if a²-b² < 0 }
00:12:31 <boily> what the? being hacked?
00:12:36 <quintopia> those messages weren't showing up
00:12:45 <boily> ...????????
00:13:01 <quintopia> and then i opened a new terminal and connected again and suddenly it turns out they had been
00:13:07 <rdococ> hi
00:13:38 <boily> and rdococ hies again.
00:13:48 <boily> this chännel seems to be temporally misaligned...
00:14:27 <quintopia> well tell me all about these features
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00:14:44 <shachaf> `wisdom
00:14:46 <shachaf> `wisdom
00:14:47 <boily> didn't start the day very well, but at least I got stuff back in order. superhackmode overclocking! and now I'm completely drained.
00:14:57 <hppavilion[1]> callforjudgemello:
00:15:03 <HackEgo> ​`mk/Everything's better with `mk.
00:15:06 <HackEgo> eto/Eto is the ageless laughing first minister.
00:15:20 <quintopia> what does this program do again?
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00:15:27 <boily> quintopia: my team and I work with everything related to interchange of information between dentists, labs, manufacturers, production centers...
00:15:29 <shachaf> `wisdom
00:15:41 <quintopia> which features broke?
00:15:46 <HackEgo> zkstr/zkstr is a common consonant cluster at the start of Russian words, see eg. http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/metro-typo-2
00:15:48 <zgrep> It's surprisingly difficult to get a rubber egg to type things on my keyboard by bouncing on it...
00:16:02 <zgrep> zkstr... heheheh. :D
00:16:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So do you have any interest in that hacking game?
00:16:25 <boily> quintopia: subcontracting some kinds of orders. our software supports crowns, bridges, implants, bite splints, orthodontic models, partials, full dentures... if a dentist can jack that stuff in your mouth, we do it.
00:16:41 <hppavilion[1]> We could generalize it to a GameOS (not a real OS, of course. I'm far too stupid for that.)
00:17:17 <boily> quintopia: some order types got suddenly broken because we've been working on new ID tracking features in the background, with more complex management features.
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00:17:55 <hppavilion[1]> `? le//rn
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00:18:00 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
00:18:10 <hppavilion[1]> `? learn
00:18:11 <HackEgo> ​`learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
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00:18:20 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep
00:18:21 <boily> quintopia: so I committed atrocities in our codebase. there's duplicative code repetetition, but at least it has the merit to be explicit. and properly spelled!
00:18:22 <hppavilion[1]> ^
00:19:09 <boily> (there are some code snippets we like to circle around on Slack. sometimes, programmers aren't in the sanest of mindsets, and you can glimpse half-self-discussions in comments.)
00:19:23 <quintopia> repetetetetetetition
00:19:51 <quintopia> will you get a chance to dry out the code later?
00:20:08 <boily> after the release!
00:20:32 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]
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00:21:14 <boily> the softeng VP agrees that whole part is bonkers, and that we should rig it with shaped explosives as soon as we can.
00:21:51 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Esoprocessor?
00:21:56 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Hm?
00:22:00 <zgrep> Ah.
00:22:06 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: I don't think anybody has made one yet
00:22:15 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Should we?
00:22:21 <zgrep> We could try.
00:22:24 <hppavilion[1]> (Barring unintentional ones)
00:22:27 <boily> quintopia: the problem is that the first layers were quickly hacked as an afterthought by interns some years ago, then left to ferment and sediment.
00:22:41 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: It should be neither Von Neumann nor Harvard
00:26:17 <boily> quintopia: I shouldn't complain much, really. all in all, it's a pretty sweet gig I got, and devs aren't treated as meager code monkeys.
00:26:34 <boily> (I'm informally known as the Electric Octopus guy instead :D)
00:26:49 <quintopia> are you the faster coder?
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00:28:08 <boily> quintopia: Octopus because I like Japanese culture, Electric because in dry weather I'm prone to ESD.
00:28:24 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: How about....
00:29:07 <hppavilion[1]> There is a bus from the memory to the CPU AND the ALU
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00:29:28 <hppavilion[1]> And from the CPU to the output, and the input to the CPU
00:29:33 <hppavilion[1]> s/CPU/CU/
00:30:11 <quintopia> boily: is octopus the eternal symbol of japan?
00:30:22 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: I want it to be stored-program unless there's some more eso idea
00:30:29 <boily> it is, in my cow orkers' minds...
00:30:40 <rdococ> cow workers?
00:30:41 <rdococ> geez
00:30:46 <quintopia> cow orkers
00:30:46 <rdococ> is that how you treat your co workers?
00:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> Coworkers are dual to workers, right?
00:30:52 <quintopia> friends who ork cows
00:31:00 <boily> rdococ: our team lead is Goat :D
00:31:08 <rdococ> lol
00:31:46 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Ew...
00:31:49 <boily> we have emoji injokes. a loaf of bread symbolizes acceptance. an orange (fruit) means you are late.
00:32:14 <quintopia> is that why your steam avatar is orangey
00:32:21 <boily> we sacrifice eggplants when we cast votes to know what we are going to eat for lunch.
00:32:31 <boily> ah no, that's a kaki. much difference.
00:34:16 <tswett> Taunt (Characters you control that don't have taunt can't be attacked.)
00:35:58 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What kind of architecture would an esoteric processor use?
00:36:04 <boily> wait. steam avatar. I got oranges over there...
00:36:07 <hppavilion[1]> Obviously not Von Neumann or Harvard
00:36:10 <boily> >_>'... <_<;...
00:39:24 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~wl/icprojects/papers/reduceron08.pdf might be of interest here
00:41:08 <quintopia> what does a lime symbolize
00:42:02 <rdococ> my color is blue
00:42:04 <boily> we don't have any lime emoji yet. if I remember to, I'll add one next Monday ^^
00:42:05 <rdococ> I think
00:42:16 <boily> rdococ: in which context twh
00:42:20 <rdococ> chat
00:42:43 <rdococ> your name was kaki in chat, so I assumed that's what it meant
00:45:31 <quintopia> what does a lima bean represent
00:47:57 <quintopia> what does a snail represent
00:48:15 <boily> I think we have a chili emoji somewhere. haven't been used much afaik.
00:48:27 <boily> no snails either. lots of cats on the other hand.
00:49:02 <zgrep> quintopia: Acute angles and judging books by their covers, respectively.
00:49:15 <boily> there's the Bell of Shame, the Kleenex Box of Bad Pun Retribution...
00:50:51 <quintopia> what does the blurry face of mr. boily represent
00:50:56 <tswett> Why are there squirrels?
00:51:15 <boily> eh? there's a blurry face of me?
00:52:00 <quintopia> everyone's favorite emoji
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00:53:43 <quintopia> un hamburger
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00:53:58 <hppavilion[1]> boily: My family has in-jokes in the form of finite strings of english letters and punctuation
00:54:02 <boily> there's a custom boilyface emoji we have. generally used when someone does something boilylike...
00:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> (space is punctuation here)
00:54:19 <boily> I give you a hamburger. the world is in sepia. a mime cries.
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00:57:50 * quintopia receives hamburger
01:03:58 <quintopia> work over, which means boily may sleep soon...but who knows on friday
01:04:16 <boily> only about 15 minutes left for me.
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01:20:29 <boily> horizontal time. 'night all!
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01:43:56 <rdococ> what does youtube's "snoopavision" look like?"
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02:19:38 <Sgeo__> rdococ, a 360 video of the video in a theater with Snoop Dogg commenting on it
02:19:49 <Sgeo__> It's only supported for a few videos
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02:29:54 <prooftechnique> Such as?
02:29:57 <prooftechnique> I'm very interested
02:31:15 <prooftechnique> Oh, dang
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02:55:29 <FreeFull> https://github.com/olofson/audiality2 Making music with this could be interesting
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03:49:14 <rdococ> how was the first assembler programmed?
03:50:03 <shachaf> it's one of the great unsolved mysteries
03:50:54 <rdococ> I'm trying to think of esoteric versions of assembly instructions
03:51:17 <rdococ> what about MOV but with line numbers
03:51:30 <pikhq> By assembling by hand, I believe.
03:51:48 <pikhq> Which isn't that *hard*, just tedious.
03:52:19 <shachaf> Assembling is a task like any other task.
03:52:32 <rdococ> the assembly would be called ASS, because it should be a real pain in the ass to program in
03:52:49 <rdococ> and before you complain, brainfuck.
03:55:56 <pikhq> I'm afraid ASS is already a subtitle format.
03:57:55 <rdococ> a subtitle format?
03:59:57 <rdococ> meh
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04:23:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seriously]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46730&oldid=46208 * Mego * (-50) Heroku is defunct
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04:45:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46731&oldid=45779 * Ais523 * (+698) the computational class issues here are actually at least mildly interesting
04:46:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46732&oldid=46731 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Reference implementation */ I know I made a typo, but MediaWiki's response to it was weird
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04:49:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BASICER]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46733 * Ais523 * (+388) another "language" with the same computational class
04:54:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!Tautologos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46734 * Rdococ * (+1434) !Tautologos == false
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04:55:16 <rdococ> "language"?
04:55:26 <rdococ> so you're saying my languages aren't really languages?
05:00:03 <rdococ> they probably aren't
05:00:11 <rdococ> but they're better than derivatives of brainfuck
05:03:54 <ais523> oh come on
05:04:05 <ais523> Wizards' April Fools joke has a Momir Basic decklist
05:04:14 <ais523> and talks about how innovative it is for playing only four of the five basic lands
05:04:22 <ais523> there are 11 basic lands :-(
05:04:32 <ais523> and they added one only last set!
05:04:39 <ais523> which surely they should have remembered about
05:06:55 <rdococ> I don't have a good imagination...
05:07:45 <ais523> rdococ: I wasn't accusing your language of not being a language
05:07:55 <rdococ> I want a good imagination
05:07:57 <ais523> I was accusing PowerPoint, which has the same computational class, as not being a language
05:08:06 <rdococ> ohhh
05:08:09 <ais523> i.e. your language and a non-language have the same capabilities
05:09:40 <rdococ> I have no ideas
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05:14:44 <hppavilion[1]> Here's an idea
05:14:51 <hppavilion[1]> A development platform
05:14:55 <hppavilion[1]> Based off of Wikis
05:15:40 <hppavilion[1]> Combined with Source Control, of course
05:17:15 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: THERE we go
05:17:21 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: THERE's the april first comic
05:19:22 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]:
05:19:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes?
05:19:56 <rdococ> yay
05:20:24 <rdococ> esonum
05:21:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Which one?
05:21:57 <rdococ> the yay one
05:22:01 <rdococ> it makes me say yay
05:22:10 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
05:22:18 <rdococ> 3yay = YAY
05:22:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Why?
05:22:32 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: What does that even mean?
05:22:45 <rdococ> My emotions are way out of whack when I need sleep.
05:22:52 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
05:22:54 <rdococ> So I act weirdly. Yay!
05:23:43 <rdococ> Error: "SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP" is not a valid instruction
05:24:34 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: *Sigh*. What kind of language are you running?
05:24:41 <hppavilion[1]> `SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
05:24:43 <hppavilion[1]> `SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
05:24:52 <rdococ> Error: SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP is not a valid instruction
05:25:11 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP: not found
05:25:11 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEP: not found
05:25:21 <rdococ> lol
05:25:25 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No, what is the model of your language
05:25:26 <hppavilion[1]> ?
05:25:28 <rdococ> Perhaps you mean "sleep" instead?
05:26:25 <hppavilion[1]> AbstractRdococFactory()()().sleep(28800000)
05:26:59 <rdococ> What? How do you even call a dictionary?
05:27:20 <izabera> "hey dictionary come here"
05:27:22 <rdococ> AbstractRdococFactory.sleep?
05:27:39 <rdococ> Haha, very fun--er, I mean, Hey is an invalid instruction.
05:27:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: What dictionary?
05:28:01 <rdococ> AbstractRdococFactory is an associative array.
05:28:06 <rdococ> Or dictionary, or table.
05:28:25 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Really?
05:28:30 <rdococ> It has a few functions, one of which is :CreateRdococ()
05:28:45 <rdococ> To get the current instance of me, use :GetCurrentRdococ()
05:28:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I use CreateRdococ as a curried function
05:29:09 <hppavilion[1]> AbstractRdococFactory() <-- Create a new factory
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05:29:20 <hppavilion[1]> () <-- Initialize a new Rdococ
05:29:26 <hppavilion[1]> () <-- Get rdococ state
05:29:38 <rdococ> No, AbstractRdococFactory isn't a function to make a new factory. It is one.
05:30:07 <rdococ> What you wanted was AbstractRdococFactory.GetCurrentRdococ.sleep(28800000).
05:30:41 <rdococ> No, I meant AbstractRdococFactory.GetCurrentRdococ().sleep(28800000).
05:31:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: AbstractRdococFactory.DestroyCurrentRdococ()
05:31:39 <ais523> huh, you can overload main in perl 6
05:31:39 <rdococ> Error: Cannot destruct Rdococ without something to take its place
05:31:53 <ais523> a different main runs depending on which one can parse the command line arguments
05:31:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: AbstractRdococFactory.DestroyCurrentRdococ(AbstractComputerFactory.GetCurrentHppavilion()[1])
05:32:04 <rdococ> ...
05:32:19 <hppavilion[1]> s/Hppavilion/Hppavilions/
05:32:26 * ais523 wonders who was being …ed at
05:32:27 <rdococ> rdococ: AbstractRdococFactory.DestroyCurrentRdococ(AbstractComputerFactory.GetCurrentHppavilion()[1])
05:32:29 <ais523> it could have been either of us
05:32:40 <rdococ> Wait, what?
05:32:44 <rdococ> It worked!
05:33:04 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes. Yes it did.
05:33:26 <hppavilion[1]> A factory is a pattern to replace constructors (IWINLTM)
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05:33:43 <hppavilion[1]> Is a treatment plant a pattern to replace destructors?
05:34:56 <ais523> you could actually do that in Rust
05:35:06 <ais523> you can't easily do it in Java or the like though because it's GCed
05:35:27 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: DAMN YOU, JAVA
05:35:32 <ais523> (where "that" = "create an object that has a method you can pass an object to to destroy it in a custom way")
05:35:39 <rdococ> But doesn't that mean I des⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎWhat in the hell?
05:35:49 <rdococ> I nearly got collected by the garbage collector.
05:35:58 <rdococ> Thank goodness I could outrun it.
05:36:04 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: How long did you spend making that message?
05:36:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Correct answer: Far too long
05:36:21 <rdococ> Um...├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎYou mean me?
05:36:33 <rdococ> ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐Stop it, hppavilion[2]!├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐No!
05:36:36 <ais523> @łe¶ŧ←↓→øþþþþþþþþþþþþþþ
05:36:36 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
05:36:38 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I want to design an esoteric processor
05:36:50 <ais523> ¡⅛£¼⅜⅝⅞™±°
05:36:51 <rdococ> Who are you ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐talking to?
05:36:56 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Do you?
05:37:06 <rdococ> S ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐e ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐r ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐i ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐o ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐u ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐s ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐l ├⌐⅓┼▀☼⌠⅍↑₺₦₨⁷ⅎ┐y
05:37:08 <hppavilion[1]> Aaaaaaaaaaaand the joke just expired.
05:37:15 <rdococ> Aww...
05:37:23 <rdococ> I would love to design an esoteric processor.
05:37:27 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yay!
05:37:33 * rdococ is now googling a processor
05:37:54 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I don't want to use Von Neumann or Harvard if I can avoid it, but I still want it to be stored-program, as unstored-program is stupid
05:37:59 <rdococ> what kind of processor?
05:38:07 <rdococ> stored-program?
05:38:24 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Stored-program means the program is loaded from memory
05:38:29 <rdococ> unstored?
05:38:39 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Loaded from a separate memory
05:38:47 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Not really "unstored", but "stored somewhere else"
05:38:48 <rdococ> hmm
05:38:58 <rdococ> what about a processor which doesn't have transistors?
05:39:11 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: We're emulating it, so transistors don't matter
05:39:18 <rdococ> Oh, okay.
05:39:18 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Look at the diagrams for Von Neumann and Harvard
05:39:59 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Von_Neumann_Architecture.svg and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Harvard_architecture.svg
05:40:46 <rdococ> "A central processing unit (CPU) is the electronic circuitry within a computer that carries out the instructions of a computer program by performing the basic arithmetic, logical, control and input/output (I/O) operations specified by the instructions."
05:40:52 <rdococ> You mean that kind of processor?
05:41:21 <rdococ> The ones that have assembly programming languages?
05:41:26 <ais523> clearly we need an esoteric food processir
05:42:19 <rdococ> Who needs logic?
05:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, that kind of processor. But memory is part of this processor
05:42:45 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Assembly, yes, close enough.
05:42:55 <hppavilion[1]> Only a few esometers off
05:43:02 <rdococ> Hahaha.
05:43:10 <rdococ> You mean esounits.
05:43:26 <rdococ> Unless esometer is the name of your esounit.
05:43:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: it is
05:43:44 <rdococ> This is getting more and more esoteric as time goes on. Esotime.
05:43:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: An esometer measures distance from metal and distance apart relative to the metal
05:44:17 <rdococ> Esolet's esoprefix esoevery esoword esowith esoeso.
05:44:19 <hppavilion[1]> Haskell is far above the metal, python less far, C fairly close, ASM a single esometer, and electrons are 0
05:44:33 <rdococ> Interesting.
05:44:35 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Just the nouns
05:44:37 <rdococ> Um, what about -1?
05:44:43 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Thue
05:44:47 <rdococ> -2?
05:44:52 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: iota
05:44:56 <rdococ> -3?
05:44:59 <hppavilion[1]> s/iota/zot
05:45:08 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Divide by zero error
05:45:10 <rdococ> i?
05:45:17 <rdococ> 3 + 2i?
05:45:17 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Nope.
05:45:19 <rdococ> @?
05:45:25 <rdococ> 3 / 0?
05:45:30 <hppavilion[1]> Esometers don't support esonums
05:45:34 <rdococ> 0^0?
05:45:36 <hppavilion[1]> For some reason
05:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Everything
05:45:50 <rdococ> -1230132012391238843?
05:46:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That would be quantum thueskell
05:46:23 <rdococ> Are we actually going to emulate the actual units themselves - something like Logisim, or just draw it?
05:46:37 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: We're going to emulate the units
05:46:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So we'll have a single memory unit
05:46:50 <rdococ> Awesome!
05:47:04 <rdococ> Who needs arithmetic?
05:47:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Do you know of any online notepad++-like collaborative editors?
05:47:21 <hppavilion[1]> Or vim-like. Or whatever.
05:47:25 <rdococ> Also, what exactly does control mean?
05:47:46 -!- rdococ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:48:07 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit
05:48:45 -!- rdococ has joined.
05:49:06 <rdococ> My connection died on me...?
05:49:11 <rdococ> What was the quit message?
05:49:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Connection reset by Piece
05:49:26 <hppavilion[1]> *Pierce
05:49:29 <rdococ> Peer?
05:49:36 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No, Pierce
05:49:49 <rdococ> Pierce?
05:49:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Pierce is the God of Freenode. He randomly kills connections for fun.
05:49:57 <hppavilion[1]> `? pierce
05:49:59 <HackEgo> pierce? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
05:50:05 <hppavilion[1]> Weird
05:50:05 <rdococ> `tomfoolery pierce
05:50:06 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
05:50:14 <hppavilion[1]> You'd think we'd have an entry on Pierce by now
05:50:26 <hppavilion[1]> It's definitely a meme and totally not something I just made up.
05:50:31 <hppavilion[1]> You should spread it.
05:50:34 <rdococ> Sounds like such a jerk. *gets disconnected*
05:51:01 <rdococ> Really?
05:51:12 <rdococ> So if I ask someone else about it, they'll say he exists?
05:51:42 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, definitely.
05:51:51 <rdococ> We'll see.
05:52:08 <hppavilion[1]> (It's no longer April Fool's where I live, so you're safe)
05:52:23 <rdococ> (6:51:56 AM) Catelite: No
05:52:30 <rdococ> Really?
05:52:39 <rdococ> hppavilion[i]?
05:52:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You can't calculate a range to i
05:53:07 <rdococ> You can't?
05:53:20 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Of course not
05:53:24 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So esoprocessor.
05:53:37 <rdococ> Esoprocessor!
05:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: If you like, we can have complex opcodes if you can figure out a way to accomplish it
05:53:57 <rdococ> I think we shouldn't implement arithmetic.
05:54:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: We should, but it should treat all numbers as imaginaries
05:54:19 <rdococ> Hmm...
05:54:26 <rdococ> That would certainly be weird.
05:54:47 <hppavilion[1]> So instead of 256 sequential opcodes, we can have something like a 16x16 array of opcodes
05:55:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: What should control flow be like?
05:55:25 <rdococ> Hmm...
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05:56:43 <rdococ> That's it, I'm connecting an alt to see my disconnect messages.
05:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That was a normal disconnect
05:57:05 <\oren\> 06:04 -!- rdococ [~rdococ@unaffiliated/octagonfly] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:57:10 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Not done by pierce
05:57:12 <rdococ> @_@
05:57:28 <rdococ> Well, if Pierce does it for the second time, then I know.
05:57:36 <rdococ_> Yay!
05:57:55 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: He usually only does it to a user once every few years
05:58:27 <rdococ> :/
05:58:44 <rdococ> How did he manage to pick me of all people?
05:58:56 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No, he does it to /all/ users once every 1 or 2 years
05:59:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Not all at once though
05:59:10 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: He has a list that he shuffles then iterates over
05:59:30 <rdococ> How are we going to collaborate on the processor?
05:59:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I don't know
06:00:08 <zzo38> I have made many of farbfeld utility programs. It includes ffpng and pngff (similar to the ones on their webpage but don't require libpng), as well as: ff-back, ff-bright, ff-colorkey, ff-composite, ff-enlarge, ff-info, ff-matrix, ff-padsynth, ff-poster, ff-printf, ff-scanf, ff-solar, ff-turn.
06:00:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: There's an "Arithmetic and Logic unit" in most processors. Why don't we also have an "Algebra and Nonsense Unit"?
06:00:32 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, we should split the ALU into the AU and the LU
06:01:01 <rdococ> Do we need an AU?
06:01:14 <rdococ> Or, why not make things awkward by removing the LU, but not the AU?
06:02:25 <rdococ> Why not make a GPU that's intended to be used as a CPU?
06:03:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: APU
06:03:10 <rdococ> APU?
06:03:23 <hppavilion[1]> Audio PU
06:03:34 <rdococ> @_@
06:04:14 <rdococ> Why not have multiple processors that work together?
06:04:24 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Multiprocessing?
06:04:50 <rdococ> The RWPU, the APU, the LPU, the NPU, the GPU, the SPU, the ZPU, the HPU, the RPU...
06:05:15 <hppavilion[1]> Name htem
06:05:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: What do those all stand for?
06:05:53 <rdococ> Read & Write Processing Unit, the Arithmetic Processing Unit, Logic Processing Unit, Nonsense Processing Unit, um
06:06:30 <rdococ> Or let's get rid of the control unit and make a declarative esoprocessor?
06:06:39 <hppavilion[1]> Nice
06:07:11 <rdococ> Haskell Assembly
06:07:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Haskssmbly
06:07:27 <rdococ> Haskembly
06:07:32 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: There we go
06:07:33 <rdococ> or Prosembly
06:07:37 <rdococ> for Prolog
06:08:14 <rdococ> I'm leaning towards Prosembly
06:08:26 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: How does it process in a machine-doable way without a list of sequential instructions w/ jumps?
06:08:46 <rdococ> I'm thinking about that.
06:09:40 <rdococ> Well, first it evaluates the output. To do that, it needs to check the rules to see if they apply. If they do apply, apply them.
06:10:10 <rdococ> Or, in Prosembly:
06:10:19 <rdococ> um...
06:10:56 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Oh! A language based on looping through a list of possible conditional transformations and applying them until a termination case is reached!
06:11:09 <rdococ> Hmm, that could work.
06:11:39 <rdococ> Isn't that basically Prolog?
06:12:22 <rdococ> Well, either way, its assembly could go like this-
06:12:51 <rdococ> mov father, (parent, male) or something?
06:13:19 <rdococ> That's pseudo assembly for copying the meaning of being a parent, and being male, to being a father.
06:13:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Uhuh. And how the hell does that work on a machine level? With binary registers and shit?
06:13:58 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Be sure that your ideas make sense xD
06:14:05 <rdococ> mov [001], [002]?
06:14:10 <rdococ> I...honestly dunno.
06:14:19 <rdococ> What if father, parent and male are memory addresses?
06:14:38 <rdococ> What if we need to make father point to both parent and male?
06:15:52 <rdococ> father (0000) -> parent (0001), male (0010)... then in pseudo assembly, mov father 0011?
06:16:01 <rdococ> I'm using... flags.
06:16:08 <rdococ> well, flag like things.
06:18:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: http://xkcd.com/1291/
06:19:40 <rdococ> But my mov [0000] 0011 makes sense, right?
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08:10:48 <zgrep> rdococ: mov or or?
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10:06:21 <ais523> huh, so on a whim, I decided to look up virustotal's results for the eicar test file
10:06:33 <ais523> two scanners failed to detect it, and one false-positive detected it as something else (!)
10:07:13 <ais523> that is some level of failure
10:09:38 <APic> lol
10:09:39 <APic> Fail
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12:37:29 <myname> rdococ: are you still trying to make your own wannabe-prolog?
12:37:53 <oerjan> . o O ( Yes. )
12:40:35 <b_jonas> ais523: is it at least possible to decode strings that are made of arbitrary combinations of ^ ~^ :^ !^ ? Because that would already be slightly more than a bit of information per source byte.
12:41:50 <ais523> ooh, good catch, I think it is
12:41:56 <ais523> probably a^ too
12:42:00 <ais523> wait no
12:42:05 <ais523> I'm tired
12:42:06 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it might be extendible
12:42:10 <ais523> a~^ would work though
12:42:21 <b_jonas> I'm just trying to set a baseline first
12:42:23 <oerjan> *^ perhaps
12:42:30 <ais523> ouch
12:42:38 <ais523> seems possible but also seems like a pain
12:42:58 <ais523> probably you could do : ^ ~^ :^ !^ *^
12:43:10 <ais523> err, not :^ in addition to : and ^ obviously
12:43:28 <b_jonas> Maybe I should try and write a decoder. (Then you'll also need to write a channel encoder, possibly an arithmetic compression one, in underload, but that shouldn't be VERY hard.)
12:43:28 <oerjan> no
12:43:36 <oerjan> ais523: :^ = : ~^
12:43:44 <ais523> oh yes
12:44:01 <ais523> I shouldn't work on this when tired
12:44:02 <b_jonas> ais523: well, I was thinking of !!^ as an addition
12:44:25 <ais523> you could probably make it work with any specific finite number of ! actually
12:44:33 <b_jonas> But first I should try to decode JUST the four clusters ^ ~^ :^ !^
12:44:36 <b_jonas> at first stage
12:44:41 <ais523> and any specific finite number of :
12:44:53 <ais523> (and any specific finite number of ! followed by any specific finie number of :, perhaps?)
12:45:15 <b_jonas> ais523: well sure, but just any finite number of ! tends to a finite limit of information, so it's not worth to go very far.
12:45:39 <oerjan> ending things with ^ seems like a good idea because that's sort of the point where you hand control back to the decoder
12:45:41 <b_jonas> Well, obviously, since you certainly can't go above four bits per source bytes in information density.
12:45:50 <b_jonas> But still
12:45:55 <b_jonas> I dunno, I should try a basic one first
12:46:02 <b_jonas> to learn how underload works
12:46:26 <b_jonas> Is there a good underload interpreter that's fast, and one that helps debugging?
12:46:43 <ais523> JS interpreter on the esoteric files archive is good for debugging but slow
12:46:44 <b_jonas> I mean ones that are known to be correct on all inputs.
12:47:07 <ais523> well nobody implements the escape syntax
12:47:24 <b_jonas> I can also try to write an interpreter myself of course, because why not.
12:47:46 <oerjan> you could have the top of the stack be something like ((:*:*)P)((::**)P)((:*)P)(()P)
12:48:04 <b_jonas> oerjan: um, what's P ?
12:48:06 <oerjan> where P is a program that checks what numbers are on the stack in the known positions
12:48:22 <oerjan> and decodes what the part of your code before ^ did from that
12:48:37 <oerjan> oh wait
12:48:46 <oerjan> that doesn't work as written
12:49:03 <oerjan> because P cannot find the numbers without executing the P's inside
12:49:04 <b_jonas> no no, don't tell me, I'll try to figure out myself, that way I'll learn more of how underload works.
12:49:09 <oerjan> OKAY
12:49:27 <b_jonas> But of course feel free to implement something like this yourself if you want.
12:49:31 <oerjan> i was just trying to think of a general scheme that could work with many ...^ codes
12:51:20 <oerjan> hm that kind of scheme only really handles : ! and ~
12:51:40 <oerjan> oh which is what you were trying, essentially
12:51:48 <b_jonas> the interesting thing would be to find a code that involves some parenthisized sequences too, like ()~^ I'm not sure if that's possible (at least in a meaningful way where you could't just write : instead of ()
12:52:53 <b_jonas> it could even be sequences that have something in the parenthesis, possibly even a sequence of parenthisized stuff without any ^ outside
12:53:13 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Well, obviously, since you certainly can't go above four bits per source bytes in information density. <-- three
12:53:14 <b_jonas> but that's not likely to be more efficient than the simple het thing
12:53:36 <b_jonas> oerjan: I don't remember how many valid characters there are exactly
12:54:00 <b_jonas> S can probably be ignored because a program can't distinguish it form !
12:54:22 <oerjan> b_jonas: right, and then there are 8 remaining
12:54:25 <b_jonas> so apart from that there's ~ : ! * ( ) a ^ that's eigh characters indeed
12:54:35 <b_jonas> yup, then definitely below 3 bits per source char
12:55:36 <oerjan> obviously the true limit _will_ hit the halting problem at some point, when you start trying to include as arbitrary nested programs as you can
12:56:38 <oerjan> (intuitively, that is. not a proof.)
12:58:19 <oerjan> <prooftechnique> Does HackEgo evaluate underload? <-- it does.
12:58:31 <ais523> `! ul (test)S
12:58:45 <oerjan> `! underload (:aSS):aSS
12:59:04 <oerjan> eventually.
12:59:09 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, but I need something with lower latency than HackEgo
12:59:10 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/ul: not found
12:59:10 <HackEgo> ​(:aSS):aSS
12:59:25 <oerjan> !underload (:aSS):aSS
12:59:25 <EgoBot> ​(:aSS):aSS
12:59:30 <ais523> oerjan: I was about to do that :-D
12:59:37 <oerjan> :)
13:00:04 <oerjan> but fungot is probably most convenient for irc lines
13:00:04 <fungot> oerjan: well it depends on which implementation you are using?"?
13:00:17 <ais523> huh, relevant comment
13:00:28 <oerjan> i guess EgoBot is better if you want to do something heavy...
13:00:49 <oerjan> since iirc it uses ais523's C implementation
13:01:08 <ais523> that impl isn't hyperoptimized, IIRC
13:01:22 <oerjan> you'd imagine it beating befunge, still
13:01:48 <ais523> oh, it is a pretty optimized one
13:04:19 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> this chännel seems to be temporally misaligned... <-- helloily
13:04:19 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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13:08:35 <oerjan> `? learn
13:08:49 <HackEgo> ​`learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
13:08:54 <oerjan> ah good
13:09:10 <oerjan> it looked in the logs like i'd put space between [s] and [punctuation]
13:11:53 <int-e> `wisdom
13:11:57 <HackEgo> disflagrate/disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized.
13:12:51 <oerjan> `? defenestration
13:12:52 <HackEgo> Defenestration is the traditional Czech system for voting out government officials.
13:12:57 <int-e> `quote
13:12:57 <HackEgo> 916) <olsner> boily: the man eating chicken is just a normal man, it's quite common to eat chicken in some parts of the world
13:13:38 <b_jonas> `wisdom
13:13:40 <HackEgo> u/u monad?
13:13:46 <b_jonas> `wisdom
13:13:49 <HackEgo> wat/Angkor Wat is a famous temple complex in Cambodia. It is the largest religious monument in the world.
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13:36:36 <olsner> (and a humorous review of the inconsistent type conversion practices of ancient cambodia)
13:37:52 <int-e> is the "u" one funnny?
13:37:57 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/u
13:38:22 <HackEgo> oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
13:38:39 <int-e> seems to have historical value of sorts..
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13:45:16 <int-e> hmm, sourts is an acidic version of sorts.
13:45:33 <int-e> `? brain
13:45:42 <HackEgo> Brains are just receptacles for bricks.
13:45:56 <int-e> `? pinky
13:45:57 <HackEgo> pinky? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:46:57 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; echo *blaster*
13:46:58 <HackEgo> ​*blaster*
13:47:22 <int-e> `wisdom *rain*
13:47:27 <HackEgo> brainf**k/There is no such thing as brainf**k. You may be thinking of brainfuck.
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14:23:06 <zzo38> ais523: In Magic: the Gathering there are eleven basic lands but I would call the five of them the "conventional basic lands".
14:23:43 <ais523> apparently there's some debate about whether Wastes is actually useful in Momir Basic
14:23:46 <ais523> it theoretically could be
14:25:11 <zzo38> Does Momir Basic allow all basic lands or only conventional basic lands?
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14:25:35 <b_jonas> What's your starting life total and effective starting hand size in Momir Basic?
14:25:52 <rdococ> yay
14:25:54 <b_jonas> It's an online-only format so I haven't paid much attention to it.
14:27:33 <zzo38> Actually it is possible to play with cards too; you would have to make up your own list of valid cards otherwise you might have too many
14:29:11 <b_jonas> Wait wait, does the Momir avatar card have exactly the same English name as the real black-bordered card of Momir Vig from the Ravnica block?
14:29:20 <b_jonas> How can they have the same names?
14:30:43 <b_jonas> are all avatar cards like that?
14:30:45 <b_jonas> this is crazy
14:34:57 <b_jonas> I assumed they had different suffixes, just like how different cards representing the same in-story famous characters have different suffixes
14:35:15 <zzo38> The avatar has the word "Avatar" at the end, apparently
14:35:35 <zzo38> So the name is not the same
14:36:21 <zzo38> (It has a different printed name from canonical name it seems)
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14:39:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: whoa... there are very few cards with a different printed name from canonical name. There's the Ærathi Berserker in legends, Atinlay Igpay from unhinged, the BFG from unhinged, and... I don't know if there's more
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14:44:15 <rdococ> noncanon
14:44:26 <rdococ> so all the cards have a picture of a cannon on them?
14:44:37 <b_jonas> rdococ: no, but Goblin Cannon has one
14:44:42 <rdococ> lol
14:44:57 <b_jonas> I like that card for a nostaligic reason.
14:45:12 <rdococ> a cannon made out of goblins?
14:45:42 <b_jonas> rdococ: no, only the cannonball is
14:45:50 <b_jonas> it's a cannon that fires a goblin
14:46:28 <b_jonas> Although maybe it's Goblin Artillery that fires goblins
14:46:47 <b_jonas> Or Goblin Grenade
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14:53:58 <int-e> Love this sentence. "The Heise Method is an intuitive method for solving the whole cube, but is very difficult to understand."
14:55:04 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, “intuitive” is used in a technical sense by cubers, although I think it's a manager style of word that tries to sound good but actually means something bad
14:58:48 <int-e> I like the sentence because it hilights that fact.
15:02:24 <int-e> hmm. "F (R U R' U') F' f (R U R' U') f'" ... F is awkward enough, but how do they even dream of doing f quickly...
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15:15:28 <rdococ> yay
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15:22:48 <zzo38> The printed text on the Alpha "Birds of Paradise" card does not match what Gatherer says the printed text is.
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15:37:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: does it match on the Beta version?
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15:46:01 <zzo38> Yes
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16:32:00 <zzo38> The YZIP picture library format supports pictures with up to sixteen colours (one of which may be transparent), and stores each pixel as the current colour index XOR the one above, and then run-length-encodes the result, and then the result of that is huffed. What is the way to optimize the order of colours in the palette (and if less than sixteen, which ones to duplicate, if any)?
16:40:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46735&oldid=46625 * * (+476) Added Kotlin implementation
16:48:25 <zzo38> Is there any better way than just trying all combinations?
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17:22:16 <quintopia> flight cancelled, flight delayed, by the time we get on the plane, we could have driven
17:22:39 <zzo38> I have been told that this document is difficult to understand by some people: https://www.npmjs.com/package/genasync How would you suggest to make improved document?
17:23:23 <quintopia> replace it with a harry potter fanfic. everyone understands harry potter
17:24:46 <quintopia> is it a php package?
17:25:02 <Kaynato> Hello, quintopia, have you seen the changes to the Daoyu specification? Is it better now?
17:26:06 <zzo38> No, it is a JavaScript package
17:27:41 <quintopia> oh
17:27:55 <quintopia> it is probably fine
17:29:06 <quintopia> Kaynato: can you annotate some example progs to explain how they work? that would be a lot clearer than trying to interrupt what paths do
17:30:17 <Kaynato> Alright, I'll do that ASAP
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18:19:18 <b_jonas> Can git use checksums other than sha-1 these days? Obviously you can't just convert all existing objects, but maybe there's a sane migration path?
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18:34:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daoyu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46736&oldid=46712 * Kaynato * (+10985)
18:34:42 <Kaynato> Alright, that's done
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19:01:01 <Kaynato> Is that better, quintopia?
19:02:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daoyu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46737&oldid=46736 * Kaynato * (+12) minor formatting
19:05:14 <Kaynato> May be of interest: http://phys.org/news/2016-03-language-cells.html
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19:14:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46738&oldid=46349 * * (-3) /* External resources */ linkfix
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20:20:16 <b_jonas> argh! why's my comupter slow?
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21:06:45 <zzo38> Do you have any ideas about the optimization of YZIP picture libraries?
21:10:34 <int-e> is this part of your X11 redesign or have you moved on?
21:10:59 <zzo38> No it is unrelated
21:15:12 <int-e> oh this is part of the infocom thread?
21:16:57 <zzo38> It does have to do with Infocom
21:23:31 <int-e> I really wish you would establish some context for your questions. The first thing I found in this case was a program called "YZIP" by a company called "Yellow Software", apparently for Symbian...
21:24:08 <int-e> (And no, I don't.)
21:27:05 <zzo38> Z-machine does not require specific formats to be used for picture libraries. I am calling this format "YZIP picture library" because it is documented together with that Z-machine version. (The other format is "XZIP picture library" format, which does not support compression or colours, and as far as I know is not in use.)
21:28:56 <zzo38> (A few XZIP implementations even use YZIP picture libraries. "XZIP" and "YZIP" here are versions of Z-machine code, although they are not related to the picture library formats except by being documented together.)
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21:32:14 <zzo38> One idea I did think of is two pass compression, where it first encodes in the simple way and calculates the Huffman tree, and then encodes again by using RLE codes that compensate for the generated Huffman tree and then create a new tree.
21:33:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: that might work, I dunno
21:33:48 <b_jonas> wait, it's using RLE only, not general copies from back?
21:33:57 <b_jonas> (as in, copy from any previous offset)
21:34:11 <b_jonas> (at least within some distance limit)
21:34:23 <b_jonas> then I'm not sure it helps much
21:44:30 <zzo38> It is not DEFLATE; only RLE and Huffman, although each scanline is XOR by the scanline above
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21:48:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: it needn't be deflate specifically, there are also simple compression schemes with copying from back but a simple fixed encoding of the references and literals instead of a variable huffman coding.
21:49:27 <zzo38> Yes I suppose LZ77, although in this case I would want to figure out optimization with this particular scheme and not DEFLATE or LZ77.
21:49:37 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: do you mean that the RLE code itself is going to be a part of tree?
21:49:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: right
21:50:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's at least easier to solve
21:50:48 <b_jonas> although you may need something more tricky to find the optimal huffman table
21:51:02 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Both the pixel values (the ones XOR with the above) and the RLE codes are part of the Huffman tree
21:51:18 <lifthrasiir> yeah, XOR is a primitive delta coding
21:51:34 <lifthrasiir> (or residual coding, whichever you prefer)
21:52:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: how many different pixel values (colors) are there?
21:52:12 <zzo38> b_jonas: Up to sixteen.
21:52:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: are you allowed to break the image to chunks with different huffman tables?
21:53:21 <zzo38> No, although different pictures can share tables or use different ones
21:53:47 <b_jonas> I see
21:54:27 <b_jonas> Hmm, are you allowed to change the huffman table in the middle of a JPEG image? I think you're not allowed to change the _quantization table_ which is a big problem.
21:54:49 <zzo38> I don't know how JPEG works, although I could try to look up to see
21:54:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: what size are these pictures?
21:56:18 <zzo38> The Z-machine pictures may be of any size, but are generally of low resolution
21:57:59 <boily> @tell oerjan hellørjan.
21:57:59 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:07:05 <\oren\> `unidecode ͭ ͯ
22:09:24 <pikhq> If I'm reading this right, you can change both the Huffman *and* quantization tables in JPEG.
22:09:24 <b_jonas> pikhq: in the middle of an image? really?
22:09:24 <b_jonas> that would be great
22:09:28 <b_jonas> (although it's probably hard to find an encoder that can actually produce such a jpeg)
22:10:01 <b_jonas> There's an image I'd really like to encode that way.
22:10:48 <b_jonas> (Well, ideally I'd like browsers to just start supporting more modern image formats so that I don't have to stick to jpeg and png and gif, but you get the idea.)
22:16:51 <pikhq> Yeah, it certainly looks as though the spec permits you to insert a new quantization table between DCT blocks.
22:17:06 <pikhq> (from a somewhat quick reading of the relevant section of the JPEG spec)
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23:17:30 <boily> homemade miso soup is good ^^
23:17:36 <boily> @massages-loud
23:17:36 <lambdabot> oerjan said 10h 13m 17s ago: <boily> this chännel seems to be temporally misaligned... <-- helloily
23:17:36 <lambdabot> shachaf said 4h 45m 10s ago: please don't read this message in public twh
23:17:53 <boily> shachaf: hellochaf. sorry.
23:25:33 <Sgeo__> What's the list for Homestuck?
23:29:27 <coppro> alist?
23:29:33 <coppro> `lists
23:29:44 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lists: not found
23:30:18 -!- tromp has joined.
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23:32:24 <int-e> `? slist
23:32:38 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
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23:39:19 <Sgeo__> `slist Homestuck has been updating since 3/28
23:39:22 <HackEgo> slist Homestuck has been updating since 3/28: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:39:31 <Taneb> I am aware
23:39:46 <Sgeo__> I wasn't aware until today
23:39:53 <boily> who's alot?
23:40:37 <int-e> `? alot
23:40:39 <HackEgo> alot? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:42:32 <olsner> http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.se/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
23:43:06 <boily> oh, this alot!
23:45:32 <Taneb> Sgeo__, it's not going to update tomorrow, but EOA6 will be Tuesday I think
23:45:33 <int-e> hmm. <oerjan> sed -i \'s/elliot *$/alot/\' bin/list
23:47:15 <olsner> hmm, what did happen to elliott? any particular calamity that made him disappear or did he just find something better to do?
23:47:31 <int-e> codu's logs are letting me down
23:48:49 <boily> can you download codu's logs for offline grepping?
23:49:14 <int-e> it used to support rsync, but these days I have to use wget...
23:49:36 <int-e> Gregor's letting us down!
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00:00:13 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, a little of both columns
00:00:54 -!- Lilly_Goodman has joined.
00:03:55 <boily> `relcome Lilly_Goodman
00:04:13 <HackEgo> Lilly_Goodman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:04:16 <boily> and where's that Spanish version again...
00:04:21 <boily> `welcome.es Lilly_Goodman
00:04:26 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome.es: not found
00:04:27 <boily> `bienvenido Lilly_Goodman
00:04:34 <HackEgo> Lilly_Goodman: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
00:07:47 <Lilly_Goodman> gracias
00:08:09 <int-e> olsner: I'll stop digging... that "alot" link came after the "alot" entry in bin/list (later to become bin/slist)... reading logs I believe Bike added el liot to that list against his wishes and oerjan defused it (in a private message, 2 days later).
00:08:26 <olsner> int-e: ok :)
00:09:13 <int-e> (this kind of archeology is fun but takes too much time...)
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00:12:54 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Probably because of the massive botnet I'm subhosting through it
00:13:01 <hppavilion[1]> <b_jonas> argh! why's my comupter slow?
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00:27:23 <boily> hppavellon[1]. b_jonas says "argh"?
00:27:56 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Yeah, b_jonas is a pirate. Did you not know?
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00:29:37 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, Pierce
00:32:14 <boily> b_jonas: b_jellonaaaaaarghs.
00:32:27 <boily> hppavilion[1]: somebody you know?
00:32:41 <hppavilion[1]> boily: What was my quit message?
00:33:29 <boily> hppavilion[1] (~DevourerO@58-0-174-206.gci.net) a quitté (Quit: Connection reset by Pierce)
00:33:51 <rdococ> it was too
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01:25:32 <boily> `wisdom
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01:26:25 <HackEgo> precision/78.75211317% of the time precision is totally overrated.
01:26:51 <Elronnd> `? Elronnd
01:27:02 <HackEgo> Elronnd desperately wants this entry to say something.
01:27:12 <Elronnd> `?hppavilion
01:27:13 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?hppavilion: not found
01:27:16 <Elronnd> `? hppavilion
01:27:18 <HackEgo> hppavilion? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:27:24 <Elronnd> `? hppavilion[1]
01:27:26 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
01:30:15 <Elronnd> `? hppavilion[2]
01:30:21 <HackEgo> hppavilion[2]? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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01:30:30 <rdococ> hppavilion[3223]
01:30:47 <Elronnd> hppavilion[e]
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01:53:22 <Anarchokawaii> has anyone ever thought of making a scope oriented language
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01:55:33 <Anarchokawaii> hello
01:58:26 <\oren\> maybe I should add phoenician
01:58:50 <\oren\> or is it pheonitian?
01:59:42 <\oren\> no i apparently speled it right the first time
01:59:53 <\oren\> it's just a weird looking word
02:00:25 <Anarchokawaii> \oren\
02:00:59 <Anarchokawaii> what if someone made a scope oriented language
02:02:09 <\oren\> scope oriented? what would that mean?
02:02:34 <Anarchokawaii> like
02:02:45 <Anarchokawaii> it's highly specific about scopes and stuff
02:02:54 <Anarchokawaii> so much of the syntax
02:03:08 <Anarchokawaii> would be oriented about which scope something is in
02:03:50 <Anarchokawaii> i just think it kinda is annoying that you are limited to 3 scopes in most programming languages
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02:21:32 <zzo38> What would the other scope be?
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02:25:50 <Anarchokawaii> not four
02:25:58 <Anarchokawaii> and infinite amout of scopes
02:27:37 <Anarchokawaii> like if you had some like : if(if(if(if()))). you could make the variable using in the first and third if statements
02:27:50 <Anarchokawaii> but not the second and fourth
02:29:53 <Kaynato> had some fun :) https://i.gyazo.com/8433cd03d9dcefe42e89123c3d8af385.png
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02:33:25 <zzo38> I suppose the syntax highlighter does not work with trigraphs?
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02:56:35 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]
02:56:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Busy
02:56:53 <rdococ> Anarchokawaii: why not make scopes the reason the language is TC?
02:56:54 <hppavilion[1]> I should probably have IRC closed ATM
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02:57:41 <zzo38> rdococ: If there is a way to do that, then OK
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03:28:25 <rdococ> who needs if anyway
03:42:40 <zzo38> BlooP/FlooP is still just as powerful if the IF command is removed
03:43:14 <Kaynato> The last obfuscation couldn't run with -O3 enabled! I touched it up and now it's good https://i.gyazo.com/83683468854e449240973064166db01b.png
03:43:19 <Kaynato> obfuscation is too fun
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03:59:43 <izabera> does anyone know the gif format well enough to write a gif mostly by hand?
04:00:02 <izabera> http://giflib.sourceforge.net/whatsinagif/bits_and_bytes.html i'm reading these docs and some things are confusing
04:00:51 <izabera> like, what's the difference between the color resolution and the size of the color table? :\
04:00:57 <izabera> in their example it's the same value
04:01:00 <zzo38> I don't know it well enough, although I have once written a program to alter the palette of a GIF picture
04:01:09 <izabera> neat
04:01:49 <izabera> i'm just writing a program to generate a gif from a go match
04:02:33 <quintopia> izabera: i suppose one could write an uncompressed gif by hand, but i aint gonna try to get optimal lzw compression with mental math :p
04:02:54 <izabera> well i'll do uncompressed first
04:03:57 <izabera> surely it won't take too much space anyway, it uses like only 3 colors and at most ~300 frames
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04:06:28 <quintopia> hmm...i'd use matlab for that
04:06:53 <izabera> what :D
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04:11:54 <quintopia> if i wanted to generate go gifs from move lists
04:12:06 <quintopia> i'd write a matlab script
04:12:20 <quintopia> because it is easy to output animated gifs
04:13:49 <izabera> but i want to do it by hand :3
04:13:53 <izabera> for reasons
04:13:58 <quintopia> like
04:14:09 <izabera> like learning purposes i guess
04:14:23 <quintopia> by typing bytes into a text editor one by one?
04:14:44 <izabera> not that hardcore
04:14:57 <izabera> just generating them will be fine
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04:16:30 <izabera> i already have a way to do it, with a program called sgf2misc
04:16:34 <izabera> but it's so slow
04:17:00 <rdococ> you know how there are games of "werewolf" in irc channels?
04:17:00 <izabera> and it outputs separate gif files and you have to create the animation with imagemagick
04:17:16 <rdococ> why hasn't a murder mystery game been ported to irc yet?
04:17:37 <zzo38> You could also to output PNG or Farbfeld, and then combine with ImageMagick (and ffpng if necessary)
04:17:39 <izabera> https://i.imgur.com/9L90oYk.gif sample output
04:18:02 <izabera> farbfeld is big endian :|
04:18:06 <quintopia> https://github.com/quintopia/gifslideshow
04:18:48 <izabera> nice :o
04:19:16 <zzo38> Yes it is big endian, although it can still be use
04:19:22 <quintopia> imwrite is supercool
04:19:51 <izabera> zzo38: too late i've already wrote like 5 lines of code so i have to finish this now
04:19:58 <zzo38> OK
04:20:50 <izabera> and i just downloaded a 3mb gif of quintopia's dog and i'm tethering on my mobile
04:20:56 <quintopia> lolol
04:21:13 <quintopia> hope you bought a lot of bandwidth
04:21:26 <izabera> 2gb/mo
04:24:03 <quintopia> ouch
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04:28:24 <quintopia> izabera: heres a better example at only 80mb! http://rutteric.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/river_crossing.gif
04:29:24 <izabera> nothx
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04:30:17 <quintopia> dolphin crashes trying to load and display it
04:32:05 <quintopia> izabera: heres a small one showing all the frames of the gif blended together: http://rutteric.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/action_river_crossing.png
04:33:36 <izabera> nice
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05:38:49 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You would like the substance "Vertiasium"
05:38:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Atomic number i)
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05:42:25 <oerjan> hmph
05:42:33 <oerjan> @messages-
05:42:33 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 44m 34s ago: hellørjan.
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06:08:32 <pikhq> Hum. There's actually an SSH client for DOS.
06:08:39 <pikhq> This oddly doesn't surprise me.
06:14:43 <oerjan> Kaynato> May be of interest: http://phys.org/news/2016-03-language-cells.html <-- definitely suspicious about the date, here
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07:43:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daoyu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46739&oldid=46737 * Oerjan * (+2) Tone marks, just because
08:16:44 * oerjan thinks his brain won't understand Daoyu on the first few iterations.
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09:22:00 <Taneb> If a language is 1-dimensional textually but 2-dimensional conceptually
09:22:22 <Taneb> Should it be categorized as "Two-dimensional languages"?
09:23:39 <ais523> Taneb: see how I categorised Formula :-D
09:24:33 <Taneb> The language I'm thinking about is COMPLEX, which I need to finish the article for but is described on my esolangs page
09:24:37 <ais523> more seriously, Paintfuck fits your description and doesn't seem to be categorized as multi-dimensional
09:25:06 <ais523> I'd call COMPLEX two-dimensional
09:25:13 <Taneb> Instructions are conceptually laid out on a grid but written sequentially with line numbers describing their location a la BASIC
09:26:28 <Taneb> I feel like COMPLEX is the language of mine I'd have the easiest time writing a compiler for
09:28:10 <Taneb> I might give it ago after my exam on the 15th
09:28:25 <ais523> well, the physical order of the source doesn't matter, right?
09:28:37 <ais523> just like you can line-permute a BASIC program and it doesn't change the meaning
09:29:11 <Taneb> Not at all
09:29:22 <Taneb> I ran the example program through shuf
09:29:48 <Taneb> Is this a "syntax is the least important part of a language" situation?
09:31:01 <ais523> I think so, unless you're trying very hard to make it relevant
09:31:10 <ais523> (which in this case you might be; I'm not sure)
09:31:45 <Taneb> The syntax was where I started with the language
09:31:59 <Taneb> I wanted BASIC but with complex line numbers, and a way to make them useful
09:32:31 <Taneb> And then I added features until I thought it had enough features
09:32:41 <Taneb> And then I removed GOTO because I realised it wasn't necessary
09:33:25 <Taneb> That's basically how the language happened
09:34:50 <Taneb> I mostly did it to see how easy it was to use Alex and Happy for lexing and parsing in Haskell
09:35:31 <Taneb> (the answer is "easier than I expected, and for this an awful lot easier than parsec"
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10:11:37 <rdococ> ugh, I'm trying this old "mirc" client again because I want to make an IRC bot and I'm too lazy to use anything that's actually remotely useful
10:17:33 <rdococ> ais, I'm not actually using it right now
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13:08:24 <boily> I'm out of coffee!
13:28:10 <int-e> must be a glitch in the matrix -- watch out for agents!
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13:38:09 <\oren\> boily: quick , to the national coffee repository in Alert!
13:41:33 <boily> Alert is far, and cold, and I need to take a shower, and...
13:42:10 <boily> I'll simply go to that new hipster café on the corner.
13:43:02 <boily> all because my favourite place to get freshly ground beans is closed on Sundays.
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14:11:32 <\oren\> I prefer Italian coffeeshops
14:12:05 <\oren\> mostly for familiarity
14:13:15 <\oren\> I wonder where the Georgian alphabet came from?
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14:17:07 <b_jonas> \oren\: someone saw the rich history of the {Phoenician, Greek, Coptic, Latin, Blackletter, Old Church Slavonic, Russian, Serbian} family of alphabets, with all the crazy variants of cursive writing that gave rise to different sets of lowercase letters, and decided to one-up it,
14:17:14 <b_jonas> just to show that he's the best conscripter ever.
14:18:03 <b_jonas> \oren\: and they hid a lot of evidence to fool archeologists that it has a two thousand year old history, plus mind controlled ten thousand people to start teaching it.
14:18:46 <b_jonas> \oren\: She probably also saw the Armenian alphabet, and correctly figured out that that's the *wrong* way to create an alphabet not derived from phoenician.
14:20:12 <Taneb> ?
14:20:25 <boily> անհեթեթություն:
14:21:25 <Taneb> That does not render for me
14:21:47 <\oren\> it's Armenian letters
14:22:27 <Taneb> I went to look at the alphabet on Wikipedia
14:22:29 <\oren\> I recently noticed that my font is missing some Georgian letters
14:22:45 <Taneb> It looks... influenced by Cyrillic/Greek/Latin
14:23:39 <\oren\> yah, armenian looks like alternate-universe latin or something, while georgian looks like nothing I can describe
14:24:12 <b_jonas> Taneb: the typography of Georgian is influenced a lot by Greek, Latin, Cyrillic, whereas Hebrew and Arabic and Braille and the American Sign Language fingerspelling have completely different typographical conventions from Latin.
14:25:00 <Taneb> \oren\, Georgian and Burmese I get mixed up
14:25:11 <b_jonas> Taneb: However, the letter shapes of Georgian aren't derived from Phoenician, Greek, Latin etc, whereas the letter shapes (and alphabetic order where approperiate) of Hebrew, Arabic, and some of european Braille and ASL fingerspelling _are_ derived from it.
14:25:29 <b_jonas> The typography and the letters are two different dimensions.
14:26:04 <\oren\> Taneb: ooh, interesting
14:26:31 <Taneb> I'd be extremely surprised if they share a common influence, though
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14:28:17 <\oren\> ⤴⤵⤶⤷ <- unicode doesn't appear to have the reverses of any of these arrows
14:28:27 <b_jonas> And just like how Latin and Cyrillic had tons of different historical variants that look unlike each other at first, Georgian does too.
14:28:53 <Taneb> I do find it interesting that Hangul (Korean alphabet) was designed specifically and intentionally to be easy to learn
14:29:21 <int-e> \oren\: it would be fun if LTR/RTL switched the directions of arrows
14:30:16 <Taneb> `? duck typing
14:30:41 <HackEgo> Duck typing means typing on a terminal blinding without an echo.
14:31:58 <int-e> duck typing is a survival competition involving typewriters on a shooting range
14:31:59 <b_jonas> wait, that has a typo
14:32:13 <b_jonas> `slashlearn duck typing/Duck typing means typing on a terminal blindly without an echo.
14:32:20 <HackEgo> Relearned «duck typing»
14:32:21 <b_jonas> `? duck typing
14:32:24 <HackEgo> Duck typing means typing on a terminal blindly without an echo.
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14:33:46 <int-e> Duck typing is the art of telling apart members of the anatidae family.
14:36:42 <\oren\> I can't even teel the difference between geese and swans
14:36:47 <\oren\> *tell
14:37:32 <Taneb> \oren\, you should go to the other York University
14:37:40 <Taneb> We've got thousands of the blighters
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14:38:20 <\oren\> the best I can do in identifying them is "look it's a big duck"
14:38:51 <Taneb> (you are at York University, Toronto, right? Or am I getting you mixed up?)
14:39:09 <\oren\> you're getting me mixed up with my dad
14:39:17 <Taneb> Oh, fair
14:39:19 <\oren\> he works there
14:39:23 <Taneb> I knew there was a connection
14:39:31 <\oren\> I work at Soundhound
14:39:33 <Taneb> I'd like to visit, mostly to annoy my friends at uni
14:39:46 <Taneb> I'm a student at University of York, York
14:40:30 <\oren\> my dad has gone to University of York, deliberately to cause confusion
14:40:49 <Taneb> :D
14:41:02 <Taneb> There's one person in the computer science department here who is apparently a professor at both
14:42:01 <Taneb> https://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~paige/
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14:48:30 <b_jonas> both of what?
14:48:57 <int-e> both yorks
14:49:01 <b_jonas> oh, both universities
14:49:07 <int-e> `? york
14:49:10 <HackEgo> York used to be known as Amsterdam.
14:49:16 <int-e> `? yolk
14:49:17 <HackEgo> yolk? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:49:28 <b_jonas> I assumed he meant a professor of both computer science and some other science.
14:49:39 <b_jonas> Like mathematics or birdology.
14:50:27 <int-e> surely you mean numerology
14:50:49 <b_jonas> No, birdology. The science of duck typing.
14:52:01 <Taneb> b_jonas, both universities, I should have been clearer, sorry
14:53:09 <int-e> the "at" should've been enough of a hint
14:55:04 <Taneb> int-e, not necessarily, one can be an attorney at law
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14:55:19 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, maybe
14:55:28 <Taneb> I wouldn't be surprised if there was an English dialect wherein one could be a professor at computer science
14:56:19 <b_jonas> maybe I didn't read careful enough to pick that up, or maybe I just don't read English well enough to pick that up
14:56:39 <int-e> "Usually, if born in a multiple-of-12 year, like 1980, you’re a Monkey."
14:57:24 <b_jonas> This interpretation game can be much funnier when you read an unclear sentence in an old book where you can't ask the writer, and try to figure out what he meant by grammatical nuances
14:57:58 <b_jonas> I played it at http://french.stackexchange.com/q/12410/6114
14:59:02 <Taneb> int-e, Chinese zodiac?
14:59:10 <Taneb> I'm year-of-the-dog, I think
15:00:06 <int-e> wtf, https://missashleyfirstgrade.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/prepositions.png
15:02:46 <int-e> And yes, Chinese zodiac. I was curious what the animal of the year is.
15:03:13 <b_jonas> int-e: hehehe
15:03:25 <b_jonas> int-e: that reminds me to bonsaikitten
15:03:27 <b_jonas> `? bonsaikitten
15:03:28 <HackEgo> bonsaikitten? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:04:23 * int-e is failing to parse "bonsaikitten" as a verb
15:04:46 <b_jonas> `learn Bonsaikitten is the cat typing behind the glass of the CRT when you run the cat command.
15:04:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'bonsaikitten': Bonsaikitten is the cat typing behind the glass of the CRT when you run the cat command.
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15:10:29 <int-e> so apparently there's a german punk rock band called "Bonsai Kitten" ... inspired by the hoax, of course.
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16:03:10 <b_jonas> `? ceiling cat
16:03:11 <HackEgo> ceiling cat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:03:13 <b_jonas> `? basement cat
16:03:13 <HackEgo> basement cat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:18:45 <\oren\> prepositioning is the art of placing troops in strategically advantageous places efore the outbreak of conflict. Joseph Stalin was total fail at this.
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17:10:07 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> olsner: I'll stop digging... [...] <-- pretty much as i remember it, anyway.
17:10:07 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
17:10:20 <oerjan> bood evenily
17:10:39 <boily> hellœrjan.
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17:43:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merthese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46740&oldid=40960 * * (+70) Add Tari's LLVM-backed compiler
17:45:22 * oerjan saw this in norwegian and managed to google the english version http://www.gocomics.com/wumo/2016/03/28
17:47:42 <oerjan> (oh and it's political hth)
17:54:51 <boily> a race of Trump hairdos? what next will come out of Norway...
17:55:11 <oerjan> boily: denmark, actually
17:55:34 <oerjan> <\oren\> I work at Soundhound <-- you should design a digital duck whistle for Taneb twh
17:56:16 <oerjan> actually, soundhound should be something that can track ducks by sound.
18:00:05 <fizzie> SoundHound's Android app has annoying notifications.
18:00:48 <oerjan> <Taneb> I'm year-of-the-dog, I think <-- hey me too! that means you're 24 years younger than me hth
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18:11:38 <\oren\> `unidecode ⛨
18:11:52 <HackEgo> ​[U+26E8 BLACK CROSS ON SHIELD]
18:12:32 <\oren\> hmm is that a unicode symbol for crusades?
18:12:51 <oerjan> you'd think that should be red cross
18:13:09 <oerjan> or did that depend
18:14:28 <oerjan> hm knights templar seem to be red, while knights hospitaller are white on black
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18:19:58 <oerjan> \oren\: oh, the teutonic order is black on white. not quite the same style though.
18:24:01 <boily> 24? aren't there only twelve Chinese zodiac signs?
18:24:48 <oerjan> boily: yes, but i don't think Taneb is 12 years younger than me.
18:25:13 <oerjan> or 36, for that matter.
18:26:32 <boily> one never knows! Tanebiology is a weird domain.
18:26:51 <boily> also, any other dragons in this chännel?
18:26:59 <int-e> twist: Taneb is 24 years older than oerjan and has been fooling us all about his age.
18:27:23 <oerjan> very plausible.
18:27:52 <oerjan> `? thausible
18:27:53 <HackEgo> thausible? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:27:59 <boily> huh?
18:28:06 <boily> `` ls wisdom/th*
18:28:09 <HackEgo> wisdom/thanks ants \ wisdom/thausiblee \ wisdom/the \ wisdom/thé \ wisdom/the meaning of life \ wisdom/the neverending work \ wisdom/theory \ wisdom/the question \ wisdom/the reals \ wisdom/the them \ wisdom/the torus \ wisdom/the u \ wisdom/the universe \ wisdom/the us \ wisdom/things boily likes \ wisdom/thirt \ wisdom/this \ wisdom/this sentenc
18:28:16 <oerjan> `? thausiblee
18:28:18 <HackEgo> A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action.
18:28:30 <boily> `? thé
18:28:31 <HackEgo> Thé is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in the Commonwealth.
18:29:18 <oerjan> `learn Caffè is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in Italy.
18:29:25 <HackEgo> Learned 'caffè': Caffè is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in Italy.
18:30:40 <\oren\> I have no idea if there is a difference between é and è or what that difference might be
18:30:59 <int-e> è is much more grave.
18:31:02 <\oren\> To me they're all "e with a thingy on top"
18:31:50 <\oren\> I can tell the difference between e with a thingy and e with two thingies on top though
18:32:19 <b_jonas> \oren\: but they're completely different things! the grave accent is what Italian uses to mark the stressed syllable, the acute accent is what Russian uses to mark the stressed syllable. Isn't that obvious?
18:32:34 <ais523> I'm trying to work out what circumstances in which the name "thausiblee" would be useful
18:32:45 <ais523> "thausible" is mostly used for hypothetical actions, right?
18:33:04 <ais523> it means that ignoring practical implications, there isn't an obvious reason why the action couldn't be taken
18:33:15 <ais523> so is "thausiblee" for hypothetical situations too?
18:33:30 <b_jonas> what
18:33:44 <b_jonas> is this about thaums
18:33:51 <\oren\> speaking of accents why does ÿ exist?
18:34:18 <\oren\> does german umlaut y into like a u or something
18:34:43 <ais523> "replacing someone's brain with a brick is difficult, but if you're talking about placing a brick in their stomach, person X would make a good thausiblee"
18:35:01 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh heck
18:35:11 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think the y with umlaut is messed up in my font
18:35:50 <ais523> whÿ?
18:35:53 <b_jonas> \oren\: and it exists but it's VERY RARE. like, it occurs in French place names and other proper nouns that they didn't want to spell normally, just for the kicks. there's no point to actually have that letter, compared to y
18:36:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NetBytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46741&oldid=46728 * Iconmaster * (+200) Added the connection stack. I think it's necessary for any interesting computational class.
18:36:10 <b_jonas> I'll fix my font quick
18:37:07 <ais523> could it be used as a diaresis?
18:37:15 <ais523> when vowel-y immediately precedes another vowel?
18:37:21 * ais523 tries to think of a word where that happens
18:37:46 <b_jonas> hmm, ỳ and ý and ŷ are messed up too
18:38:19 <b_jonas> ais523: what diphtongue would that prevent?
18:38:27 <b_jonas> um
18:38:39 <boily> \oren\: ÿ exists in French for extremely uncommon village names hth
18:38:40 <ais523> I'm not sure if there are any dipthongs that start with y
18:39:01 <\oren\> L'Haÿ-les-Roses
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18:39:32 <ais523> hmm, how is "ayy" (as in "ayy lmao") pronounced?
18:39:34 <boily> é represents a é sound, where è is è hth
18:39:36 <ais523> in particular, is it a tripthong?
18:39:50 <\oren\> le ha EE les rose?
18:39:52 <boily> /æj:/?
18:39:54 <iconmaster> I pronounce it like 'aye'.
18:40:04 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it would be the same as ay
18:40:27 <b_jonas> ais523: that is, probably something like /ɛi/ or /ei/
18:40:37 <ais523> b_jonas: in which case, a ÿ would be theoretically useful in the sequence aÿy
18:40:45 <boily> \oren\: /lai.lɛ.ʁoz/
18:40:46 <b_jonas> ais523: why?
18:41:01 <ais523> because it'd be pronounced as ay-y, not ayy
18:41:03 <iconmaster> Of course, I also pronounce "lmao" like "luh-mouh", so don't trust me here.
18:41:06 <b_jonas> ais523: would it make multiple /i/ sounds one after the other? I don't think that's actually a pronunciation distinction they pronounce
18:41:13 <boily> /lmao/
18:41:18 <b_jonas> wait, let me look up, there are conjugated verbs with "ii" in the written form
18:41:19 <\oren\> el-Mao
18:41:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mychal * New user account
18:41:39 <boily> b_jonas: in French? yes, there are.
18:41:43 <b_jonas> also, there was a relevant entry on David Madore's blog with a word that he thinks should be spelled with ö
18:42:03 <b_jonas> (which is not a letter than normally exists in French)
18:42:32 <ais523> b_jonas: ay-y where the second y is a consonant, as opposed to ayy which is one vowel
18:43:43 <ais523> like, say you pay someone in yams
18:43:45 <b_jonas> ais523: /i/ is either a vowel, or a semi-vowel spelled /j/, which is just /i/ but shorter. I don't think /ij/ would be distinguished from /i/ thus.
18:43:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FISHQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46742&oldid=46267 * Mychal * (+1843) Added Kotlin implementation
18:43:59 <ais523> those would be paÿyams, whereas "payyams" might be pronounced "paiams"
18:44:09 <\oren\> I thought ayy was pronounced like the letter A as /ej/
18:44:44 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, you might be right
18:45:10 <b_jonas> ais523: https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Annexe:Conjugaison_en_fran%C3%A7ais/rire says riiez is pronounced /ʁij.je/
18:45:15 <b_jonas> (seriously)
18:46:01 <b_jonas> well, I never really understood how the french semi-vowels are supposed to work
18:46:19 <\oren\> maybe the /i/ is a bit more toaward /ɪ/ and glides up toward /i/?
18:46:38 <\oren\> and they write that as /ij/
18:46:52 <b_jonas> I pretend they're just variants of vowels that the linguists invented to claim that the two meanings of "suis" are distinguished in pronunciations
18:47:12 <oerjan> <b_jonas> is this about thaums <-- no, we're just splitting hairs. at least in the realities that survived, hth.
18:49:23 <oerjan> * ais523 tries to think of a word where that happens <-- cyanide hth
18:49:45 <ais523> oerjan: doesn't really work because "ya" doesn't have a pronounciation as a single vowel
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18:54:17 <b_jonas> ah, found it! it's http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-08-07.2061.html#d.2012-08-07.2061 and it's even more ridiculous than I remembered
18:55:06 <b_jonas> he suggests the spelling “arguë́”, with an e with diæresis and acute accent, as well as “arguöns” with an o with diæresis
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18:55:46 <oerjan> hilariöus
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19:02:22 <b_jonas> (he also suggests a new grammatical tense for verbs, and I know way too little about the already existing grammatical tenses in French to be able to make sense of what that even means)
19:15:42 <oerjan> passé composté
19:16:39 <oerjan> for actions that are _quite_ finished.
19:17:17 <oerjan> wait, composter doesn't mean that in french?
19:19:28 <oerjan> hm wiktionary is _very_ confusing on the issue.
19:20:10 <oerjan> ah french wiktionary is better, it does mean that too.
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20:00:50 <hppavilion[1]> I have a theory about time travel in (this) universe
20:01:05 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: is the theory that it's impossible?
20:01:06 <hppavilion[1]> I call it the "Continuational Theory of Temporal Anomalies"
20:01:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:01:10 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: No
20:01:14 <b_jonas> aww
20:01:16 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: But it explains why we can't see it
20:01:43 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: My theory goes that, when the proper conditions arise, a new sort of particle is created
20:01:51 <hppavilion[1]> This particle is called the "Continuation Particle"
20:02:07 <hppavilion[1]> The continuation particle drifts through the universe like any other particle
20:02:35 <hppavilion[1]> Except, when it interacts in the proper way with another particle (probably getting close enough)
20:02:47 <hppavilion[1]> The universe reverts to the moment that the continuation particle was created
20:03:06 <hppavilion[1]> And everything continues the same way, EXCEPT that the continuation particle is replaced with the particle it collided with
20:03:18 <hppavilion[1]> It fits with the LISPiverse theory quite nicely
20:04:17 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Get it?
20:04:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
20:04:31 <hppavilion[1]> `? call/cc
20:04:35 <HackEgo> call/cc? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:04:37 <hppavilion[1]> What.
20:04:43 <hppavilion[1]> `? call-with-current-continuation
20:04:46 <HackEgo> call-with-current-continuation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:04:56 <ais523> we all know what call/cc does anyway, or should
20:05:10 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, but that's the perfect opportunity for a call/cc joke
20:05:28 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Sort of like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_evaluation
20:05:43 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: How do you like my theory?
20:06:04 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: this is how time travel works in Feather
20:06:06 <ais523> `? Feather
20:06:08 <HackEgo> Feather? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:06:12 <ais523> `? feather
20:06:14 <HackEgo> feather? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:06:17 <ais523> oh good
20:12:11 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Isn't `? case-insensitive?
20:12:23 <ais523> I wasn't sure
20:12:51 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Ah
20:12:54 <hppavilion[1]> `? lisp
20:12:55 <HackEgo> lisp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:15:07 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn lisp/(eq "lisp" (proglang-with (use-lots ["(" ")"]) (paradigm functional) (notation-type prefix)))
20:15:11 <HackEgo> Learned «lisp»
20:15:15 <hppavilion[1]> `? lisp
20:15:16 <HackEgo> ​(eq "lisp" (proglang-with (use-lots ["(" ")"]) (paradigm functional) (notation-type prefix)))
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20:15:38 <ais523> does proglang-with autoquote its arguments?
20:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Is that joke sufficient?
20:15:54 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Not exactly
20:16:11 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Its arguments yield attributes
20:16:22 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: (use-lots, paradigm, and notation-type)
20:16:37 <ais523> I considered that but decided it was excessively Java
20:16:52 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: And proglang-with combines those attributes to yield a programming language
20:16:56 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: It's not strictly OO
20:17:04 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: It's a cousin of OO
20:17:20 <ais523> so is Java :-P
20:18:05 <hppavilion[1]> But less horrible, as it doesn't use state change
20:18:05 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: "attributes" doesn't mean object fields.
20:18:17 -!- me2 has joined.
20:18:22 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: (paradigm x) and (notation-type x) are actually semi-sugar for dictionary lookups
20:18:31 <ais523> yes but you're still writing a function that returns data values that are then used to construct an object
20:18:39 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Fair enough
20:18:40 <ais523> in other words, you have a factory attribute factory
20:18:59 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Fine, it's OO, but done in a LISPy way
20:19:08 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: If you have a better joke, use it.
20:19:19 <ais523> I'd just have added a few apostrophes
20:19:31 <ais523> or written it as cons cells
20:19:31 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Fine, I'll do that
20:19:56 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn lisp/(eq "lisp" (proglang-with '(use-lots ["(" ")"]) '(paradigm functional) '(notation-type prefix)))
20:19:59 <HackEgo> Relearned «lisp»
20:20:34 <hppavilion[1]> `? lisp
20:20:35 <HackEgo> ​(eq "lisp" (proglang-with '(use-lots ["(" ")"]) '(paradigm functional) '(notation-type prefix)))
20:20:52 <hppavilion[1]> `? python
20:20:53 <HackEgo> python? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:21:22 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn python := ProgrammingLanguage(plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE
20:21:23 <HackEgo> No output.
20:21:25 <hppavilion[1]> Whoops
20:21:43 <hppavilion[1]> The := was a mistake, first of all
20:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn python/python = ProgrammingLanguage(attrs=[plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE'], plattrs['INTERPRETED'], *plparadigms['IMPERATIVE', 'FUNCTIONAL']])
20:22:41 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit
20:22:48 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn python/python = ProgrammingLanguage(attrs=[plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE'], plattrs['INTERPRETED'], *plparadigms['IMPERATIVE', 'FUNCTIONAL']])
20:22:51 <HackEgo> Learned «python»
20:22:53 <hppavilion[1]> `? python
20:22:55 <HackEgo> python = ProgrammingLanguage(attrs=[plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE'], plattrs['INTERPRETED'], *plparadigms['IMPERATIVE', 'FUNCTIONAL']])
20:23:04 <hppavilion[1]> Not perfect, but it works
20:23:31 <hppavilion[1]> And plparadigms[x, y] is nice because it demonstrates the use of the __getitem__ method for custom objects
20:23:48 <Taneb> oerjan, that'd make you... 45?
20:24:37 <int-e> I hate it when X11 breaks.
20:25:03 <hppavilion[1]> `? brainfuck
20:25:05 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
20:25:25 -!- shikhin has changed nick to totally_heddwch.
20:25:27 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn_append brainfuck/bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang
20:25:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'brainfuck': brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang
20:25:34 -!- totally_heddwch has changed nick to shikhin.
20:26:14 <b_jonas> hehe, "mklang"
20:26:46 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed -i "s/mklang/mklang_arry" wisdom/brainfuck
20:26:47 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 20: unterminated `s' command
20:26:57 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed -i "s/mklang/mklang_arry/" wisdom/brainfuck
20:27:00 <HackEgo> No output.
20:27:13 <b_jonas> well, someone did make a trivial brainfuck substitution generator once
20:27:14 <hppavilion[1]> (I hope that mklang_arry is *nixy enough)
20:27:25 <hppavilion[1]> Actually, no
20:27:38 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed -i "s/mklang_arry/mklang --array" wisdom/brainfuck
20:27:39 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 28: unterminated `s' command
20:27:49 * hppavilion[1] is an idiot
20:27:57 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed -i "s/mklang_arry/mklang --array/" wisdom/brainfuck
20:28:01 <HackEgo> No output.
20:28:05 <hppavilion[1]> `? brainfuck
20:28:06 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
20:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> Note that the `bf` command is, of course, a brainfuck interpreter
20:28:45 <hppavilion[1]> The -c flag obviously interprets its argument directly, and -t makes it return its tape
20:28:56 <shachaf> What?
20:29:04 <shachaf> Why are you doing these things to the wisdom database?
20:29:27 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm making definitions of languages in the languages themselves
20:29:46 <oerjan> Taneb: excellent arithmetic would buy again
20:30:15 <shachaf> Maybe put those somewhere else? They don't really fit in.
20:30:15 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: brainfuck had to be *nix'd though, because it doesn't have support for the libraries that would be necessary for this
20:30:46 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well, it started with lisp, because lisp didn't have a wisdom entry
20:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But I can do that if you like
20:31:05 <hppavilion[1]> `? lisp
20:31:06 <HackEgo> ​(eq "lisp" (proglang-with '(use-lots ["(" ")"]) '(paradigm functional) '(notation-type prefix)))
20:31:26 <Taneb> oerjan, sorry for the slow response, I was having an accidental nap then getting a drink of water and otherwise not paying attention to IRC
20:31:52 <Taneb> oerjan, when is your birthday?
20:32:46 <int-e> . o O ( after christmas )
20:33:22 <oerjan> i was born on a perfect day hth
20:33:29 <ais523> oerjan: the 6th and/or 28th?
20:33:35 <shachaf> both of those
20:33:36 <ais523> hmm, 28th of June?
20:33:40 <shachaf> yes
20:34:14 <oerjan> it could only go downhill from there, really.
20:34:17 <rdococ> I forgot how to list all the channels I havr egistered
20:34:44 <rdococ> wow, shachaf was born on tau day?
20:34:49 <rdococ> no
20:34:50 <rdococ> oerjan
20:34:54 <rdococ> I mean
20:34:55 <rdococ> wait
20:35:03 <rdococ> who's the one who was born on a perfect day?
20:35:03 <ais523> rdococ: /ns listchans is the closest I can see
20:35:06 <rdococ> I got confused
20:35:14 <int-e> That may be the best argument pro tau that I've seen so far.
20:35:21 * oerjan swats rdococ -----###
20:35:21 <ais523> look for channels where you have +F permission
20:35:24 <shachaf> please see the two words preceding "born on a perfect day" hth
20:35:27 <oerjan> int-e: well it doesn't work on me
20:35:50 <shachaf> oerjan: presumably you were born on 496-06-28
20:36:08 <shachaf> so all will be right again on 8128-06-28
20:36:30 <shachaf> dinosoerjan
20:36:34 <int-e> tsk, what was I thinking... Channel #realworld created Tue Dec 29 05:00:21 2009
20:37:15 <rdococ> oerjan was born on tau day omg
20:37:37 * oerjan swats rdococ again for good measure -----###
20:37:37 * rdococ slaps oerjan with a trout ><>
20:38:09 <oerjan> shachaf: maybe not _that_ perfect.
20:38:40 <rdococ> I'm testing a new bot I just made, using a terrible scripting language - you get three guesses as to what it is
20:39:03 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Maybe rdococ just has absurdly short scrollback?
20:39:11 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Perhaps a newsbanner-style IRC client
20:39:17 <shachaf> doesn't matter
20:39:28 <int-e> rdococ: php, lua, javascript, ruby... oops.
20:39:29 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: nah, I was typing as I was reading
20:39:35 <rdococ> int-e: no, worse
20:39:39 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: That would mean they couldn't see "I was born on a perfect day"
20:39:42 <oerjan> malbolge
20:39:50 * oerjan optimist
20:39:52 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: but they responded to that comment
20:40:04 <rdococ> I was just reading while I typed it
20:40:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes, but they may have read it and then forgot who sent it
20:40:11 <shachaf> look
20:40:13 <shachaf> it doesn't matter
20:40:30 <int-e> rdococ: bash?
20:40:31 <Taneb> oerjan, I was born on a prime day
20:40:50 <rdococ> no, I didn't read the part about oerjan until it was too late
20:40:53 <oerjan> well we now have proof rdococ is not a goldfish, since goldfish have reasonably good memory hth
20:40:56 <rdococ> int-e: no, even worse
20:41:09 <int-e> dc
20:41:15 <rdococ> oerjan: what? I didn't forget anything...
20:41:20 <rdococ> int-e: nope, evener worser
20:41:24 <oerjan> rdococ: that's what you think
20:41:28 <int-e> (impossible, sadly)
20:41:36 <rdococ> int-e: so mSL is better than dc?
20:41:42 <Taneb> Conclusion: rdococ is actually a goldfish?
20:41:51 <int-e> (at least as far as I can see, dc cannot parse arbitrary input)
20:41:52 <rdococ> why would I be a goldfish?
20:42:05 <rdococ> int-e: MSL IS BETTER THAN SOMETHING?!
20:42:35 <rdococ> as I was saying, I'm testing my new murder mystery game on ##murder
20:43:15 <int-e> rdococ: to be fair, dc wasn't designed to be a scripting language
20:43:25 <rdococ> mSL wasn't either by the looks of it
20:43:34 <rdococ> it has the weirdest syntax
20:43:37 <rdococ> it's almost esoteric
20:43:44 <rdococ> heck, it is esoteric
20:45:26 <Taneb> rdococ, use Awk instead
20:46:31 <rdococ> I hope I don't give people the wrong impression by calling my murder mystery game bot murderbot
20:46:40 <rdococ> it just got disconnected
21:09:23 <oerjan> what was the quit message
21:13:26 <oerjan> @ping
21:13:26 <lambdabot> pong
21:18:10 <int-e> > 1
21:18:13 <lambdabot> 1
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21:41:39 <ais523> ^ping
21:41:39 <fungot> That Pong alone cannot stop!
21:41:50 <ais523> that… is not what I was expecting
21:41:54 <ais523> ^help
21:41:54 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
21:42:00 <ais523> ^show ping
21:42:00 <fungot> (That Pong alone cannot stop!)S
21:42:09 <ais523> well, that's the obvious way to write it in fungot
21:42:09 <fungot> ais523: i have only seen the movie yet, but the result will come out first :) i am happy that you seem to prefer to use plain 32-bit rgb values
21:42:14 <ais523> ^show
21:42:15 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
21:42:34 <ais523> hmm, 32-bit rgb, what are the other 8 bits? 2⅔ bits for each channel? alpha? gamma?
21:42:37 <b_jonas> help, fungot is making sense!
21:42:37 <fungot> b_jonas: right click and choose a simplistic implementation ( conses or vectors) you'd need 3 primitives. the word " fry" makes me nervous!!
21:43:03 <b_jonas> ais523: 8 unused values usually; or 10+12+10 bits for rgb
21:43:05 <int-e> fungot: would you prefer to be boiled?
21:43:05 <fungot> int-e: you guys ever considered the concept, whereas partial continuations refers to the same port) or just use pastebin? can i borrow it?
21:43:07 <b_jonas> both of those exist
21:43:13 <ais523> b_jonas: why does the green get more bits?
21:43:33 <ais523> is it just because it's double 5:6:5?
21:43:35 <int-e> fungot: no, that thought had not occurred to me
21:43:36 <fungot> int-e: here's the problem with that is you need to use set-car! and set-cdr! too. i tried ( set!...
21:43:46 <ais523> ^style
21:43:46 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:43:54 <ais523> right, that's what I thought it was
21:44:00 <ais523> fungot's irc style normally produces the best results
21:44:00 <fungot> ais523: the bash scripts in the language
21:44:26 <ais523> now I'm wondering what esoteric subsets of bash exist
21:44:30 <ais523> there's ddsh, at least
21:44:40 <ais523> which the author of CLC-INTERCAL has used as an esolang
21:44:57 <b_jonas> ais523: green matters more for the human eyes, that's why it gets more bits. but 8 bits for each of rgb and 8 unused bits is much more common
21:46:10 <rdococ> ...
21:46:32 <ais523> b_jonas: right, this is something I discovered during the palette tests
21:46:49 <b_jonas> ais523: one esoteric subset of bash is bash without execing anything else
21:46:52 <ais523> dark greens are easier to see than dark reds or blues at a similar brightness
21:46:59 <ais523> thus darker colours are more usable with green
21:47:05 <b_jonas> people implement stuff in that sometimes, even when it doesn't make sense
21:47:08 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh
21:47:13 <ais523> b_jonas: ddsh is basically that, except a) you can exec dd, and b) you can only use the subset that exists in sh
21:47:14 <b_jonas> (sometimes it can make sense, when forking and execing is slow)
21:47:28 <fizzie> It's strange, because the irc style's also one of those I trained using my own, very crude fixed-length n-gram model collector, instead of the VariKN toolkit I used for most of the rest.
21:47:31 <hppavilion[1]> I'm implementing a BF interpreter and compiler, and I want the standard getch()-style input because it's better than buffering
21:47:32 <rdococ> I swear my internet just stopped for a minute
21:47:52 <oerjan> rdococ: mine too, if you mean irc
21:47:55 <fizzie> On the other hand, it's also much larger than the other styles.
21:48:01 <oerjan> and it's the second time
21:48:02 <hppavilion[1]> But I also want it to be able to set the input to a file instead of the stdin
21:48:02 <rdococ> oerjan: no, everything else
21:48:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh, being bigger helps a lot
21:48:19 <hppavilion[1]> And if it's a file, it will work the same but read from the file
21:48:28 <rdococ> oerjan: wait, you mean it did take a whole minute for another person to say something?
21:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> But python has the stdin AS a file, so I cannot distinguish them
21:48:45 <fizzie> ^style europarl
21:48:45 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
21:48:46 <hppavilion[1]> But I want to, because if they're- oh, I think I know nhow
21:48:52 <fizzie> That one's approximately the same size.
21:48:58 <rdococ> huh...?
21:49:03 <fizzie> And I like it quite a lot, although it's pretty predictable.
21:49:03 <rdococ> internet's broken, but irc is fine?
21:49:19 <fizzie> fungot: What's your take on the migrant crisis?
21:49:20 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, mrs cerdeira morterero' s report takes the same line, which caused such an uproar and upheaval that there are many, the people who suffer distress or die, and indirectly through greater transparency, even in the european union
21:50:16 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:51:38 <oerjan> rdococ: it was more that a lot came through at once.
21:52:20 <rdococ> oerjan: nah, what happened was that the game I was playing froze - I could still move or jump or stuff, but everyone was walking in place, then eventually, it disconnected
21:52:47 <oerjan> <rdococ> internet's broken, but irc is fine? <-- DNS trouble?
21:53:14 <rdococ> I'll use Window's terrible diagnosis thing
21:53:32 <oerjan> although that _shouldn't_ matter for an ongoing game unless it's badly written?
21:53:44 <rdococ> what do you mean?
21:54:01 <oerjan> DNS should only matter if you need to make new connections
21:54:13 <rdococ> that's interesting...
21:54:25 <rdococ> are you saying that if I disconnect from this irc server, I won't be able to reconnect?
21:54:34 <oerjan> it's possible.
21:54:37 <rdococ> that makes sense about something that happened a few years ago
21:54:52 <rdococ> chrome mentions the dns
21:54:59 <oerjan> it's happened to me before.
21:55:17 <rdococ> the game was multiplayer
21:55:24 <oerjan> if so, try setting your DNS to something wellknown like
21:55:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: retrain it with even more irc data! and train one from the lolcat bible
21:55:33 <rdococ> my DNS?
21:55:39 <oerjan> *DNS server
21:55:46 <rdococ> how do I do that?
21:55:53 <oerjan> that's one of google's
21:55:56 <rdococ> ik
21:55:58 <b_jonas> no, the other sort of DNS
21:56:07 <rdococ> there are two kinds?
21:56:22 <oerjan> rdococ: can you open web pages, or are you still having trouble?
21:57:00 <rdococ> google doesn't work
21:57:15 <b_jonas> oh, is this the kind of problem where you have to hope you're not disconnected from irc because you wouldn't be able to disconnect?
21:57:28 <rdococ> reconnect*? if so, yes
21:57:30 <b_jonas> rdococ: turn off "Work offline" in the File menu
21:57:37 <rdococ> file menu?
21:57:41 <rdococ> in which program?
21:57:42 <b_jonas> of the browser
21:57:45 <b_jonas> firefox or similar
21:58:01 <rdococ> it's chrome, it has no file menu
21:58:12 <b_jonas> I don't know about chrome
21:58:17 <b_jonas> can't help there
21:59:22 <rdococ> indeed
21:59:26 <rdococ> it is that kind of problem
21:59:45 <rdococ> disconnected and tried to reconnect my bot
22:00:02 <rdococ> how do I set my dns
22:00:09 <rdococ> dhould I try IE?
22:00:27 <oerjan> it's not in the browser
22:00:35 <oerjan> but i'm having trouble refinding it
22:00:51 <rdococ> no, I mean, it might have a file menu
22:01:16 <fizzie> You can try opening a site by IP to verify whether it's indeed DNS trouble. Say, navigate to in Chrome.
22:01:31 <rdococ> That works.
22:02:14 <fizzie> Then the trick is likely to work, but I can't really comment on how to set it in Windows, I'm sure they've moved the setting around in every version of it.
22:02:22 <rdococ> windows 8
22:02:25 <rdococ> pls search it
22:02:36 <oerjan> i found how to display what the DNS server is, but not how to set it. i'm on W10
22:02:45 <fizzie> Well, I've got a page.
22:02:45 <rdococ> tell me how to display it
22:02:50 <fizzie> "This article will advise how to change your computer's IP address and DNS servers on Windows 8. This article applies to any version of Windows 8."
22:02:55 <fizzie> It has a lot of screenshots.
22:02:57 <rdococ> k
22:03:00 <rdococ> what do they say?
22:03:12 <fizzie> Well, they're mostly blue. There's a nice picture of a daisy as a background.
22:03:27 <rdococ> what should I type?
22:04:11 <rdococ> come on, it shouldn't take that long, and I'm worrying
22:04:12 <fizzie> The screenshots go Control Panel -> "Network and Sharing Center" -> "Change adapter settings" -> right-click on the network -> Properties -> Internet Protocol Version 4 (TCIP/IPv4) -> Properties -> "Use the following DNS server addresses".
22:05:11 <oerjan> ah that seems right
22:05:33 <oerjan> i didn't try to click on the Internet Protocol item
22:06:18 <fizzie> (Interestingly enough, the top hit for me for "windows 8 set dns server" -- the page I was quoting from -- was from the support site from the ISP I'm using. I wonder if that's just targeted ranking, or if they're just that good.)
22:06:22 <oerjan> so it works in Windows 10 too
22:07:07 <rdococ> aha
22:07:30 <hppavilion[1]> ABfCI is now officially online!
22:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/ABfCI
22:07:35 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ
22:07:37 <rdococ> changed it to
22:07:54 <rdococ> it works
22:07:55 <rdococ> yay
22:10:31 <Taneb> Can anyone think of a stupider sounding maths word than "clopen"?
22:11:44 <coppro> not off the top of my head
22:11:48 <coppro> but I feel like I've encountered some
22:15:22 <rdococ> clopen?
22:15:29 <coppro> both closed and open
22:16:44 <Taneb> rdococ, it comes up in topology which has technical definitions for closed and open sets
22:16:49 <Taneb> That aren't mutually exclusive
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00:07:46 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I may have asked this before, but what strategies are used when generating brainfuck code?
00:08:42 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], you need to keep in mind your data structure is a tape, and the only loop you have is a fairly simple while loop
00:08:53 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: OK.
00:09:12 <Taneb> Design your data structure carefully and don't be afraid to change it if it isn't working
00:10:03 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: For a compiled-to-brainfuck language, would data markup be useful?
00:10:20 <Taneb> I don't know, that's not something I have any experience with
00:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, a way to tell it to set certain cells to values before initialization?
00:10:27 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Fair enough
00:13:46 <rdococ> what about a looped tape?
00:14:03 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Been there, done that
00:14:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You use a deque
00:14:10 <hppavilion[1]> > and < are roll
00:14:11 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘are’
00:14:11 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
00:14:11 <lambdabot> ‘arr’ (imported from Control.Arrow),
00:14:18 <hppavilion[1]> ' pushes a new 0
00:14:35 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Seems like it would trivially reduce to BF, but it's actually very different
00:14:38 <rdococ> so you can add and remove stuff in tapes?
00:14:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes?
00:14:53 <rdococ> I mean increment or decrement the value
00:14:58 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes
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00:15:10 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: + pops a value and pushes its successor, - does the same with predecessor
00:15:14 <hppavilion[1]> [ and ] are the same
00:15:14 <rdococ> what if the program was looped?
00:15:14 <j-bot> hppavilion[1]: and ] are the same
00:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> , and . are the same (usually, though you may want to make them different)
00:15:39 <rdococ> like what we were discussing about a prolog processor
00:15:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Looped program? Like Fueue?
00:16:55 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Or like this language I made which's name has slipped my mind?
00:18:23 <rdococ> prolog processor?
00:18:30 <boily> speaking of fueue, where's mroman now?
00:18:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yeah, prolog processor.
00:18:38 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Good question
00:18:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You're the one who brought it up
00:19:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Do you want to design a FORTH-like language?
00:20:59 <rdococ> hmm
00:21:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Called FITH
00:21:14 <boily> @ask mroman hello? hello? hello?
00:21:14 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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00:21:58 <rdococ> there's one called FIFTH
00:22:04 <rdococ> it's esoteric
00:23:41 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: FITH would not be. Well, not completely.
00:24:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It'd be eso- by virtue of being a FORTH, and would have optional esoteric features, but it would also be quite straightforward
00:24:27 <hppavilion[1]> In theory, it'd be suitable for a wide range of applications, from hobbyist OS dev to systems programming to space flight
00:24:33 <rdococ> k
00:24:49 <rdococ> interesting
00:24:59 <rdococ> so it'd be stack based
00:25:24 <ais523> I recently came across a language called 8th, which is apparently a commercial FORTH with big ambitions
00:25:30 <ais523> it's unclear whether anyone actually uses it
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00:27:28 <rdococ> and it would do stuff like maths and input
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00:27:56 <b_jonas> ais523: is it trying to add some safeguards to detect stuff early (possibly at compile time), like unpaired push/pop on the main stack or wrong types?
00:28:12 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't know the details
00:28:30 <ais523> nothing in the tutorial looked different from actual Forth except that it appeared to have a type system, and I suspect one that isn't checked at any point
00:28:35 <b_jonas> hmm, that reminds me,
00:28:35 <ais523> you just have to write the types correctly
00:28:55 <b_jonas> I should add that language that tries to pretend it's forth-like to the esowiki because it probably counts as an esolang
00:29:04 <b_jonas> I'll add a todo-entry
00:29:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46743&oldid=46727 * B jonas * (+143)
00:32:19 <rdococ> hmmm
00:32:26 <rdococ> 2d stack?
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00:34:10 <rdococ> hmm
00:35:13 <rdococ> add 2 mult 3 2
00:36:22 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: 2D stack? How does that work?
00:36:59 <rdococ> not infinity 1d stacks
00:37:07 <rdococ> diagonals?
00:37:13 <rdococ> you could have horizontal stack
00:37:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But a 2D stack. Explain?
00:37:17 <rdococ> or vertical stack
00:37:28 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, I think I see
00:37:29 <rdococ> hmm
00:37:37 <hppavilion[1]> You can pop from multiple places
00:37:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But how do you tell it where to pop from?
00:37:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Also, the analogy breaks down a bit in 2D
00:38:06 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Because it matters what direction the stack grows in
00:38:06 <rdococ> but then you could change a stack's direction and make it a snake
00:38:13 <rdococ> hmm
00:38:22 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I'd prefer to just use a good old deque
00:38:27 <rdococ> true
00:38:36 <rdococ> what about a branching stack?
00:38:50 <hppavilion[1]> `google spaghetti stack
00:38:58 <rdococ> add (mult 3 2) (div 2 3) would branch into two branches
00:39:02 <rdococ> mult branch and div branch
00:39:07 <hppavilion[1]> @google spaghetti stack
00:39:08 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent_pointer_tree
00:39:16 <rdococ> but it sounds less esoteric and more useful
00:39:20 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's not how FORTH works
00:39:28 <rdococ> ik
00:39:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: This is meant to be useful while preserving roots in esotericness
00:39:33 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ Looking up \ Making HTTP connection to \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=%73%70%61%67%68%65%74%74%69%20%73%74%61%63%6b' \ Alert!: Unable to access
00:39:38 <zzo38> Are there any Magic: the Gathering cards which create new state-based actions?
00:39:42 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: FORTH would be 2 3 +, not + 2 3
00:40:00 <hppavilion[1]> And FORTH is better because of that
00:40:19 <hppavilion[1]> Because you can do things other than arithmetic, which still works in prefix, but is much more confusing
00:40:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So the instructions I'm already thinking of are:
00:40:42 <rdococ> pls give me an example
00:40:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: $ or DROP makes sense in postfix, but not as much in prefix
00:41:04 <rdococ> drop?
00:41:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: POP a value and throw it away
00:41:24 <rdococ> example pls
00:41:38 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: 2 3 4 $ + is equal to 2 3 +
00:42:05 <hppavilion[1]> Because the 4 gets DROPed
00:42:09 <rdococ> oh
00:42:16 <hppavilion[1]> It seems useless, but it doesn't have to be a scalar like 4
00:42:29 <hppavilion[1]> It could be an expression with side-effects
00:42:36 <boily> int-e: int-ello. I seem to have begun binging QC. welp.
00:42:37 <rdococ> oh, okay
00:42:40 <rdococ> interesting
00:42:43 <hppavilion[1]> 2 3 "press any key to continue" . , $ +
00:42:54 <hppavilion[1]> That will add 2 and 3, but not until you approve of it
00:43:02 <rdococ> wow
00:43:03 <rdococ> cool
00:43:05 <rdococ> that's
00:43:06 <rdococ> wow
00:43:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Want me to make a full list of instructions?
00:43:16 <rdococ> never thought of it that way
00:43:20 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Just the basic ones
00:43:29 <rdococ> so it drops ,?
00:43:32 <rdococ> what's , do?
00:43:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes
00:43:36 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: , is GETCH
00:43:40 <rdococ> GETCH?
00:43:55 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: , gets a single character of input (a single keypress) and PUSHes its ord() onto the stack
00:44:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So , $ is a GETCH that doesn't change the stack
00:44:26 <rdococ> cool
00:44:28 <rdococ> sounds good
00:44:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But $ only drops one value; if it's an instruction that creates two new values (e.g. , ,), you need two $s
00:44:43 <rdococ> so . pops and outputs the string?
00:44:55 <rdococ> that was pushed before it
00:45:15 <rdococ> so is FORTH all like this, or does it have other things?
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00:47:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, pretty much all stacks
00:47:29 <rdococ> hmm by the looks of it, it's all in that stack based no--hey, what about brainstack? stack based brainfuck!
00:47:38 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's been done.
00:47:41 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Repeatedly.
00:47:42 <rdococ> wow
00:47:44 <rdococ> yeah
00:47:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Please do not make a new one.
00:47:47 <rdococ> didn't sound so good
00:48:04 <rdococ> I have not made a single bf derivative in my time here
00:48:18 <rdococ> mine are not that esoteric
00:48:41 <\oren\> my brainfuck interpreter uses a stack
00:48:47 <rdococ> wow, really?
00:48:54 <boily> \oren\: eh?
00:49:03 <rdococ> what other paradigms are there?
00:49:13 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm
00:51:52 <rdococ> hmm
00:51:53 <rdococ> so
00:51:58 <boily> holy syntax highlighting batman! those are some saturated colours!
00:52:05 <rdococ> a stack based language which is a more esoteric version of forth
00:52:16 <rdococ> yeah, ow my eyes
00:52:23 <rdococ> infact, rip them
00:52:24 <boily> also, you use tabs. tabs are evil. four spaces!
00:52:31 <rdococ> tabs!
00:52:34 <rdococ> tabs!
00:52:46 <boily> SPACES!
00:52:54 <rdococ> tabs are sometimes 4 spaces, sometimes 8!
00:52:58 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Tabs are configurable-width
00:53:04 <rdococ> I prefer 4. 8 looks like someone stretched it into spaghetti
00:53:15 <boily> four. spaces. 0x20. four of 'em.
00:53:18 <rdococ> and 2 looks like msl aaaaaaaaaaaaaah
00:53:28 <rdococ>
00:53:31 <hppavilion[1]> boily: You can tell it how wide you want your tabs to be in spaces. So tabs allow better personal preferences
00:53:52 <rdococ> Iwillusetabsfromnowontoannoyboily
00:53:58 <rdococ> yay!
00:54:04 <rdococ> justkidding
00:54:17 <boily> and then you're going to tell me that braces go alone on their own lines.
00:54:19 <rdococ> I'mnotthatevil
00:54:22 <boily> HERETICS Y'ALL!
00:54:32 <rdococ> braces don't need to exist
00:54:37 <rdococ> lua doesn't have them
00:54:43 <rdococ> and they're filthy
00:54:45 <rdococ> dirty
00:54:47 <rdococ> unholy
00:56:53 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, I don't really care whether tabs or spaces are used; just do whatever your dev environment spits out when you hit newline
00:58:15 <zzo38> When I push newline it results in newline!
00:58:25 <rdococ> really?wow
00:58:37 <rdococ> he means
00:58:37 <rdococ> this
00:58:44 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: How would one typecheck an imperative stack-based language? Row polymorphism doesn't seem like it would help unless the language is functional.
00:59:00 <rdococ> functional FORTH?
00:59:09 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That will be a feature, but not the core of the langauge
00:59:32 <zzo38> (However, I generally use two spaces for indent, and put the brace on the same line as if/function/while/whatever.)
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01:00:15 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I will accept your "four spaces" theology if you're willing to use ​as your space
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01:00:29 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you seem to have accidentaly a word.
01:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I did not
01:00:37 <hppavilion[1]> boily: `unidecode
01:01:33 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode use ​as
01:01:46 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: declarative FORTH
01:01:58 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's kind of pointless
01:02:14 <rdococ> it is?
01:02:25 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: FORTH is good because it's fast and works well with the low-level system, which does /not/ go well declarative languages
01:02:34 <rdococ> declarative prologassembly?
01:02:51 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Granted, if you can make a schema for a low-level language that works well on bare metal, I will concede
01:03:20 <rdococ> basically, the prolog processor would take data, then apply all the substitution rules in a loop
01:03:34 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It has to work well on arbitrary, typical processors
01:03:41 <rdococ> oh
01:03:42 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Like an intel
01:03:53 <zzo38> I think Forth is probably good for including in ROM BIOS (some old computers include BASIC), and can also be used as the built-in programming environment of a system that doesn't otherwise have one it can work good too
01:04:02 <rdococ> you mean a language, not the processor we were gonna design
01:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes
01:04:22 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: We can still design a processor.
01:04:47 <rdococ> hmm
01:05:04 <rdococ> declarative languages still have some form of order to them, just not top to bottom
01:05:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But if you can find a way to (abstractly) make a declarative language that works well on bare metal, I will concede and help you design implement the rest of it
01:05:10 <rdococ> e.g. church numerals
01:05:11 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Correct
01:05:26 <rdococ> hmm
01:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Church encoding is best to avoid in actual computing
01:05:51 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Practically speaking, using church encoding is horribly inefficient. It's much better to just let the language access the actual computer.
01:05:53 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: church numerals would be really slow, wouldn't support fractions
01:06:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Church encoding can support fractions
01:06:10 <rdococ> it can, but it'd still be slow
01:07:21 <rdococ> hmm
01:07:23 <hppavilion[1]> (λxyz.zxy)(λsx.s(s(x)))(λsx.s(s(s(x))))
01:07:26 <rdococ> well,
01:07:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Look into x86 to start
01:07:53 <rdococ> every instruction is bound to have a side effect when it's machine code
01:08:10 <rdococ> I has x64
01:08:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86#Basic_properties_of_the_architecture
01:08:23 <rdococ> but I will look
01:08:26 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: x64 is still x86
01:08:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I think. It's confusing
01:08:46 <hppavilion[1]> x64 is the 64-bit variant of x86, which is 32-bit (originally 16-bit)
01:08:52 <hppavilion[1]> I think
01:10:05 <rdococ> k
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01:10:42 <rdococ> CISC
01:11:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You are correct that at ASM levels, all instructions tend to have side effects. This is why you should start with a robust framework for allowing side effects in your BMDL (bare-metal declarative language. Feel free to rename it now)
01:11:58 <hppavilion[1]> I would recommend naming it after a bird of prey for now, or a mythical creature
01:11:58 <rdococ> k
01:12:03 <rdococ> Pheonix
01:12:08 <hppavilion[1]> You can always rename it later
01:12:12 <rdococ> both bird and mythical
01:12:17 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I was seeing if you would choose that xD
01:12:21 <rdococ> and melts metal
01:12:27 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Oooh, that's good
01:12:31 <hppavilion[1]> I didn't think of that
01:12:35 <rdococ> xd
01:12:56 <rdococ> hmm
01:13:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So what kind of language do you want this to be? Most declarative languages are functional, logical, or functional-logic (which is the one I know the least about, despite being literally just functional+logic)
01:13:23 <hppavilion[1]> But you can also base it off other systems
01:13:36 <rdococ> hmm