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00:19:46 <Sgeo> alise, jsforth
00:19:58 * Sgeo prepares for alise to make some sort of statement expressing disapproval
00:21:33 <alise> http://rx-core.org/jsvm/
00:21:41 <alise> http://www.forthfreak.net/jsforth.html
00:21:56 <alise> (http://wiki.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?jsforth)
00:22:02 <oerjan> close to the virtual metal?
00:22:06 <alise> http://solidcoding.blogspot.com/2008/12/wforth-javascript-forth-interpreter.html
00:22:45 <Sgeo> I was expecting more of a "Don't use it" than a "It already exists"
00:23:06 <alise> nothing wrong with it, a bit useless though
00:23:19 <Sgeo> It needs to be made to work with Chrome
00:23:50 * Sgeo is considering LSL-Forth
00:23:57 <Sgeo> Which, apparently, already has been done
00:24:04 <Sgeo> But I don't think it's been mass marketed
00:24:28 <Sgeo> Which I wanted to do with a Scheme in LSL, and would want to do the same with a Forth
00:24:33 <Sgeo> Scheme might be easier
00:24:34 <alise> Somehow, when talking about selling Second Life stuff you manage to sound as obnoxious as "social media gurus".
00:24:38 <Sgeo> To get acceptance stuff
00:25:06 <Sgeo> alise, I'm not a large clueless company
00:25:49 <alise> nor are "social media gurus"; they're just clueless
00:26:25 * Sgeo decides that wForth is worthless
00:26:44 <Sgeo> It doesn't have SEE, it doesn't have c.,
00:27:01 <Sgeo> It has neither postpone nor [compile]
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00:27:33 <Sgeo> Doesn't have XTs
00:27:54 <Sgeo> Doesn't have .s
00:28:13 <Sgeo> I'm surprised it actually has : and ;
00:30:57 <Sgeo> JSVM treats enter and space as the same thing, which I guess isn't necessarily bad
00:40:02 <alise> They just ported their VM to JS.
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00:51:29 * Sgeo wonders if LSL-Forth should use native LSL strings or in-memory stuff
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00:54:24 <alise> Sgeo: Mu; it should not exist.
00:55:16 <Sgeo> It has as much right to exist as jsforth does
00:57:26 <alise> Yes, but jsforth isn't marketed as something you should actually use.
00:58:15 <Sgeo> What's wrong with trying to get people to use a hypothetical LSL-Forth?
00:58:35 <Sgeo> Although I guess an LSL-Scheme would be easier
00:58:43 <Sgeo> More difficult to implement an LSL-Scheme though
01:05:24 * Sgeo wonders if it would be easier to implement Scheme in Forth than directly in LSL
01:10:43 <alise> Sgeo: : min 2dup < if drop ; then nip ; : max ...
01:10:54 <alise> Sgeo: What min would look like in colorForth (with translation of colours to symbols)
01:11:00 <alise> Figure out how it works!
01:11:13 <alise> (Assuming those words are defined in cF, I don't know)
01:11:27 * Sgeo doesn't remember nip
01:22:16 * Sgeo wtfs at that : before max
01:22:28 <alise> i was just showing how it ended
01:22:31 <alise> (however, it is relevant)
01:22:34 <alise> Sgeo: note the multiple ;s
01:22:39 <alise> the nip isn't the important thing
01:22:54 <Sgeo> Your min does not have a sensible stack effect
01:23:15 <Sgeo> Although I guess I have no clue wtf that extra ; is for
01:23:42 <oerjan> it's related to how you said cf does proper TCO...
01:24:01 <alise> i'll explain it, since nobody is cool enough to get it
01:24:07 <alise> so Sgeo isn't cool enough to get it
01:24:12 <alise> Sgeo: ; does /not/ terminate the definition
01:24:17 <alise> ; merely compiles as a return
01:24:20 <alise> there is no "else"
01:24:29 <alise> 2dup > if drop ; then nip ;
01:24:37 <alise> otherwise, the return will be skipped
01:24:42 <alise> so we nip then return
01:24:46 <alise> so how do you terminate definitions?
01:24:48 <alise> by starting another one
01:24:56 <alise> (or max-in-red in cF itself)
01:25:15 <alise> you can't deny that that's cool.
01:25:23 <oerjan> ...so how do you actually start interpreting again?
01:25:37 <Sgeo> exit in normal Forths does the same thing, right?
01:25:46 <alise> oerjan: i'm not actually sure.
01:25:52 <alise> oerjan: probably there is some word for it
01:26:11 <alise> but ~all of colorForth is blocks of word definitions, so
01:26:18 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuOvqeABHvQ wtf
01:26:19 <alise> and ofc you never actually see :
01:26:23 <alise> [red NAME] [green WORDS]
01:26:24 <alise> [red NAME] [green WORDS]
01:27:05 <alise> Sgeo: btw, you can "tail-recurse" in any forth
01:27:06 <oerjan> hm ; isn't yet another color?
01:27:12 <alise> oerjan: nope, it's a regular word
01:27:19 <alise> oerjan: it's not syntax highlighting, only actual semantic differences
01:27:31 <alise> drop from return stack
01:27:37 <alise> which is exactly what you think it is
01:27:48 <alise> why doesn't it work
01:27:48 <Sgeo> alise, the return stack is standardized?
01:27:57 <alise> Sgeo: Um ... it's a vital part of any Forth ... of course it is.
01:28:29 <Sgeo> alise, but the things in it are guaranteed to have a specific meaning? Can't one Forth possibly use two cells for each thingy?
01:29:16 <alise> Well, yes, of course it can; but a Forth can do anything it likes.
01:29:23 <alise> ANS Forth doesn't say it can, though, but that's not worth anything.
01:29:33 <alise> More to the point, the only thing that matters is that no Forth does that anyone knows of.
01:29:40 <alise> Because return stack manipulation is VERY common.
01:29:56 <alise> Now to figure out why rdrop doesn't wokr.
01:30:27 <Sgeo> alise, return stack manipulation for the purposes of manipulating the return stack, or for trivial temporary storage?
01:35:21 <Sgeo> The video I pasted
01:37:22 <Sgeo> I pasted a URL to a video
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01:48:12 <oerjan> Sgeo is technically correct
01:48:30 <oerjan> that's a bit long to wait before saying "nsfw.*", though
01:49:40 <Sgeo> It's a bit long before that part played
01:49:43 <alise> Sgeo: you have never seen Rejected?
01:49:54 <Sgeo> alise, I have today
01:50:47 <alise> it is the firmament on which the internet is based
02:05:35 <Sgeo> What's a typical way to do events in Forth?
02:05:46 <Sgeo> somext someevent
02:09:09 <Sgeo> : 2dup ( a b -- a b a b ) over over ;
02:10:19 <alise> : 2dup postpone dup postpone dup ; immediate
02:10:39 <alise> : 2dup postpone over postpone over ; immediate
02:11:03 <Sgeo> And why would 2dup be immediate?
02:11:28 <Sgeo> I take it you're also thinking of over as immediate. Why?
02:11:35 <Sgeo> All the immediateness is ... alarming
02:13:10 <alise> because 2dup should compile to over over
02:13:16 <alise> rather than having to be called
02:13:17 <alise> since it's so simple
02:13:41 <Sgeo> So basically inlining
02:15:01 <Sgeo> Forth will not understand this. It will desperately look for the words 'this', 'will', etc. However the word '' will mark everything up to the end of the line as comment. So this will work:
02:15:01 <Sgeo> : *. * . ; This will multiply and print two numbers
02:15:41 <Sgeo> I assume there should be a \ , but I simply don't see it
02:16:42 <alise> bad escaping obviously
02:19:32 <Sgeo> Remember that aw-create thing?
02:19:37 <Sgeo> It should really use a value
02:24:28 <Sgeo> alise, would attempting to popularize LSL-Scheme make more sense?
02:34:10 <alise> Both make 0 sense.
02:35:27 <Sgeo> alise, LSL sucks
02:39:13 <oerjan> lavishly sucking language
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02:41:14 <Sgeo> alise, "The ANS Forth standard does not express Moore's vision of Forth. Moore believes the ANS standard is far too large and complex, and he doesn't see much value in any standard since people should write their own Forth. It is fair to say that most of the Forth community disagrees."
02:42:03 <alise> Sgeo: It is fair to say that "most of the X community" is defined as the writer's opinions on X.
02:42:09 <alise> Weasel words; look them up.
02:45:04 <Sgeo> Hmm, I should attempt to figure out the return stack
02:46:08 <Sgeo> WHat's the point of ?dup?
02:46:17 <Sgeo> It's effect on the stack is conditional
02:50:25 * Sgeo wonders if it makes sense to 'boot into Open Firmware'
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03:00:47 <Sgeo> My locker number is 24
03:10:08 * Sgeo ponders ForthNomic
03:10:28 <Sgeo> It's doable... but the result would necessarily be very much unforthlike
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05:46:52 <zzo38> Hello did those you, who you wanted to install MegaZeux, done it yet?
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06:07:18 <Sgeo> Well, just learned that I can't make an AW SDK wrapper for Gforth
06:07:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: O, you can't?
06:07:46 <Sgeo> Or, actually, possibly I can, but I need to use undocumented stuff
06:07:52 <Sgeo> zzo38, it needs callbacks
06:07:56 <Sgeo> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Callbacks.html#Callbacks
06:08:12 <zzo38> You could somehow implement callbacks in Gforth, somehow
06:08:38 <Sgeo> Hmm, true, I guess, but I'd have no clue where to start
06:09:37 <Sgeo> I'm still not sure when ?dup is useful
06:09:46 <zzo38> Unfortunately I don't know either, but I have some guesses
06:09:52 <zzo38> And I do know when ?DUP is useful.
06:10:05 <zzo38> It is sometimes useful in ?DUP IF or ?DUP WHILE constructions
06:10:53 <zzo38> To do callbacks, perhaps, push stuff in stack, store address in return stack, when it returns pop what is needed and then return to the other program. Maybe, that might work? I don't know.
06:12:50 <Sgeo> : rdrop r> drop ; ( except no, this would probably not be what a potential user would want )
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06:14:49 <zzo38> That definitions of rdrop wouldn't work so well, if...
06:14:55 <coppro> wow, the xkcd alt text today is geeky
06:14:58 <Sgeo> I just had a thought involving a definition with 6 POSTPONE in the body
06:15:25 <zzo38> The definition you give might act like EXIT does....
06:15:58 <Sgeo> alise was doing something akin to inlinine
06:16:01 <Sgeo> I think I'd use that
06:16:09 <Sgeo> But then I might have a stack of postpones
06:16:29 <Sgeo> Factored out with a definition that drops in multiple postpones... but the postpones need to be double
06:16:32 <zzo38> If you want to inline the code, you use POSTPONE and IMMEDIATE
06:17:20 <Sgeo> That pattern should be factored out into, say, a inline:
06:17:21 <coppro> I move that we postpone this conversation indefinitely
06:17:26 <Sgeo> Too tired and late to do it now
06:18:14 <zzo38> You might be able to make the definition clearer if you modify the parser to support backtick notation
06:18:25 <Sgeo> backtick notation?
06:19:18 <zzo38> Backtick notation is something that some Forth systems support, I think the first one might have been HELFORTH, although I cannot find any information about it anymore. MegaZeux and TAVSYS also support backtick notation.
06:19:35 * Sgeo is more interested in what it does than what its history is
06:19:48 <zzo38> Backtick notation does this:
06:19:55 <zzo38> : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ;
06:20:01 <zzo38> : THEN` HERE SWAP ! ;
06:20:26 <zzo38> Where the word IF` is the word to compile IF and DUP` is the word to compile DUP and so on.
06:20:55 <Sgeo> But didn't whatn you just put attempt to define IF` ?
06:21:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: Can you write that more clearly, please?
06:22:50 <Sgeo> Is : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; an example of using it, or an example of defining IF` ?
06:23:07 <zzo38> It is an example of defining IF`
06:23:17 <zzo38> And an example of using it.
06:23:18 <Sgeo> Oh, as in the compilation semantics of IF?
06:23:48 <Sgeo> Some Forths use compile-only
06:23:56 <Sgeo> Most use IMMEDIATE
06:24:14 <Sgeo> No, most would use immediate and be state-smart
06:24:22 <Sgeo> Checking STATE
06:24:38 <Sgeo> I remember reading that that's largely not a good thing to do
06:25:51 <zzo38> You are correct, that is not generally a good thing to do
06:26:44 <zzo38> : ELSE` GOTO` ORIG SWAP THEN` ;
06:29:50 <Sgeo> If you want an event system, what would it normally look like from the high level?
06:29:56 <Sgeo> somext someevent
06:30:58 <zzo38> You can see how MegaZeux does it, which is one possible way
06:31:18 <zzo38> The addresses are stored in a event array
06:31:59 <zzo38> And the built-in word to create them is :EVENT ( event-number -- )(enter compile mode)
06:33:04 <Sgeo> That makes a lot of sense
06:33:24 <Sgeo> As in, not written in MegaZeux Forth?
06:33:44 <zzo38> Actually, it is not primitive, it is built-in to the standard library.
06:33:51 <zzo38> So it is written in MegaZeux Forth.
06:33:58 <zzo38> (I just made a kind of small mistake)
06:34:32 <Sgeo> I need to brush teeth and go sleep
06:34:52 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe I should avoid deliberately using bad grammar
06:35:53 <zzo38> It doesn't matter, as long as it can be possible to understand it
06:37:37 <zzo38> An example of an event code in MegaZeux Forth might look like: SimpleLock EV.ITEM + :EVENT DROP BOARD_COLOR + @ TAKEKEY ;
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06:39:02 <Sgeo> zzo38, what happens if EV.ITEM happens to be too large to h.. oh, wait, n/m
06:39:25 <Sgeo> I guess when I saw the ., my mind went to OOP mode, and thought it was a variable (well, value)
06:39:37 <aortizm> Hi Sgeo, I'm seeking someone who knows about possetions
06:40:00 <Sgeo> aortizm, sorry, this channel is not about the spiritual type of esoterica
06:40:20 <Sgeo> This is about esoteric programming languages... languages that are made not for practical use, but for other reasons
06:40:27 <Sgeo> They do not seek to be mainstream languages
06:40:37 <zzo38> EV.ITEM is a constant representing the value you must add to the kind ID number, to make the event number.
06:40:50 <Sgeo> Brain**** is an example of an esoteric programming language
06:40:52 <aortizm> well perhaps it could use some usefull info..
06:40:54 <Sgeo> One of the more famous ones
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06:41:35 <zzo38> aortizm: But sometimes other things are discussed too. But not always. (There was topic message in here once about the spiritual type, but that is not the main purpose of this channel, so if you have on-topic stuff to discuss, it takes priority, generally)
06:41:49 <Sgeo> zzo38, aortizm left
06:42:11 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I see that, I wonder if they know where is the logs, maybe they should look at esolang wiki, too, to see what it is
06:42:31 <Sgeo> I honestly doubt that e's interested
06:42:45 <Sgeo> Hopefully he doesn't attempt to exorcise anyone
06:42:52 <zzo38> You might be correct, surely
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06:48:33 <zzo38> Do you have kern information for MagicMedieval font and MPlantin font? I have found program to convert TTF font to METAFONT, but, it doesn't convert kern information or ligature information. Do you have kern and ligature information?
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06:50:30 <zzo38> I would like to know so that I can write templates for TeXnicard
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06:51:17 <zzo38> I have found information about the .DVI and .*GF formats, so I can write a DVI driver, I already started it a bit
06:53:02 <zzo38> It creates text layers using the fonts and typeset text in the DVI file, and combines those pictures with external pictures when building a ImageMagick command-line that generates the card pictures. You can enter arbitrary ImageMagick operators using DVI specials.
07:00:45 <zzo38> What I need also is a special that converts units of measurement to pixels, so that these numbers are usable in ImageMagick regardless of what DPI resolution you are printing it at.
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07:34:54 <zzo38> Can I get the mana symbols and tap symbols and those other things, also done in METAFONT?
07:38:40 * Sgeo ponders WAITUNTILEVENT
07:39:18 <coppro> zzo38: no clue about kerning
07:39:47 <coppro> zzo38: pixel size depends on DPI by definition
07:39:59 * Sgeo thinks it would probably be a good idea to make that a primitive
07:40:01 <coppro> zzo38: and the symbols are images. No clue how you would get those into METAFONT
07:40:16 <coppro> then again, I don't know all that much about METAFONT
07:41:51 <zzo38> coppro: Do you know who can help? Yes I know about pixel size and stuff like that, the output format is in 1 pixel for 1 dot, so if it is printed at 300 DPI it will be a 1 inch picture will be 300 pixels long.
07:42:38 <zzo38> And although I could use pictures for the mana symbols, I think I could get a much better quality if METAFONT is used instead, in addition, using METAFONT means TeX can typeset them the same way as ordinary text.
07:43:09 <coppro> zzo38: in that case, you'd have to METAFONT-ize them yourself
07:47:02 <zzo38> I do know how I can write METAFONT macros for set symbols. The outline and fill of the set symbol can be separate text layers in dvinicard, and then some ImageMagick operators can be used to put fancy gradients and stuff like that.
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07:49:38 <zzo38> How good is the quality of the mana symbols on cards generated by Magic Set Editor? I think using METAFONT can achieve much better quality.
07:54:03 <coppro> zzo38: They are large images shrunken down
07:54:12 <coppro> and most resolutions you'd use them at, you won't notice a loss in quality
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08:11:22 * Sgeo wonders if he should learn Factor
08:13:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: Learn it if you want to, but I don't really like it much, and I think you do not need to learn Factor
08:15:23 <coppro> pikhq: I have lost whatever faith in your country I had left: http://chzoddlyspecific.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/4a65c96b-360e-4853-a7a2-abc782e9ca49.jpg
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08:15:58 <zzo38> How large is a Magic: the Gathering card (in inches)? I did not find a ruler
08:16:49 <coppro> 2.5 by 3.5 or thereabouts
08:18:12 <fizzie> "Each Magic card, approximately 63 x 88 mm in size (2 15⁄32 by 3 7⁄16 inches), --"; nowadays you can just ask such questions from Wikipedia.
08:18:43 <fizzie> 15/32 and 7/16 are reasonably close to .5 though.
08:18:54 <zzo38> The cards I have in my computer use a template 375 x 523 but that doesn't even make 300 DPI. And the cards must be printed at a higher resolution than that!
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08:20:34 <zzo38> Eventually if I write this program emough, it might be able to produce better quality cards than official WotC cards even. And then you can sue them if they do not follow the GNU GPL license......
08:21:07 <fizzie> 375x523 and those physical dimensions sounds like an approximately 150 dpi thing.
08:21:19 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, I have calculate it and it is approx 150 dpi
08:24:12 <zzo38> If my program becomes good enough to be much higher quality than even official cards, then WotC can use it, if they learn how........
08:24:29 <zzo38> And if they don't use it, their competitors will use it.......
08:25:01 <coppro> zzo38: they could just keep the modifications in-house
08:25:17 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, they can, but they would still have to learn
08:25:44 <zzo38> Hopefully the included documentation would be sufficient
08:26:25 <coppro> WotC lawyers are not slackoffs
08:28:11 <zzo38> But the program itself is not a template.
08:28:43 <zzo38> The template(s) would be separate packages that are not part of the program.
08:29:12 <zzo38> Of course they can use the program and templates internally if they want to, even with private modifications
08:30:39 <zzo38> But their competitors will make their own private improvements and they will be better than the one WotC uses
08:31:12 <zzo38> (I don't know who their competitors are, but surely their competitors can make templates, too)
08:33:10 <zzo38> Does WotC even use TeX or METAFONT or ImageMagick at all?
08:33:33 <fizzie> I would be surprised (but delighted) if they did.
08:34:29 <fizzie> (My guess is horrible in-house tools built on top of some Windows graphical-design apps.)
08:34:54 <fizzie> You may need to go kidnap an employee to make sure.
08:36:16 <zzo38> I think you are probably correct, they probably use horrible in-house tools built on top of some Windows graphical-design apps. And they probably paid a lot of money for it!
08:42:34 <zzo38> Some people use Photoshop or GIMP, but I find ImageMagick is far superior. Some people use LaTeX, Microsoft Word, OpenOffice, etc, but I find Plain TeX is far superior. Some people use various other software for designing typefaces, but I find METAFONT is far superior.
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08:44:43 <coppro> imagemagick is not suitable for complex editing
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09:43:33 <immibis> "99 bottles of beer on the wall. 99 bottles of beer. If one of the bottles should suddenly fall, there'd be undefined bottles of beer on the wall"...
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11:58:44 <fizzie> Am at work, not very much here.
11:58:59 <asiekierka> fizzie, can i send you a new style for fungot?
11:59:01 <fungot> asiekierka: later incidents are chaotic. as i advanced, the light ahead seemed to grow in size and general outline. nor, said the dreams and the fancies they lost so many centuries ago, and no clear account of any kind, but my watch told me it was only the start. zeb here was callin' folks up an' everybody was a-listenin', an' i guess obed kind o' fnord an' i see every one was covered with pegs from which hung a set of pictures
11:59:21 <fizzie> Well, sure. How big is it?
11:59:40 <fizzie> Oh, then I guess an email attachment is fine.
11:59:51 <asiekierka> i will do updates to it once in a while
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14:56:51 <fizzie> alise: This -- http://p.zem.fi/xcf -- made Xcolorforth compile, start, make a window, and not segfault on x86-64; unfortunately it still only produces a black window that needs to be kill -9'd away. The main point is sed -e 's/poll/cf_poll/g'; it renames the "poll" function in main.c; if you don't do that, SDL_Init (at least as non-root when it can't access the framebuffer device) will fail, presumably because SDL/Xlib/xcb/something expects "poll" to be the lib
14:56:51 <fizzie> c poll, not some other poll.
14:57:47 <alise> fizzie: I believe a completely 32-bit binary must be made, since colorForth is 32-bit afaik
14:57:56 <alise> This may be hard what with its memory antics, though
14:58:01 <fizzie> If you do it like that, it is a 32-bit binary, as far as I know.
14:58:19 <alise> fizzie: Try it as root? Yes, yes, suicide, I know.
14:58:26 <alise> But I forgot to use REISUB; you may not be so stupid.
14:58:43 <fizzie> I don't have root here, I'm at work. :p
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14:58:52 <alise> It only did things as root for me; then again, it was broken entirely.
14:59:48 <fizzie> Anyway, I attached a gdb to it and backtraced; there was a call stack 5 levels deep inside the function "xcf", which is where it copies color.com contents to; I don't think I'm interested enough in starting to go through the asm code to find out why it's not drawing anything.
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15:00:52 <alise> But, but XCOLORFORTH!
15:00:53 <fizzie> (5 levels in xcf, which had managed to then call the main.c function that makes SDL blit the framebuffer into the window, so I think it's likely it just wasn't drawing anything into it, for some reason or another.)
15:01:28 <fizzie> Maybe if I can stay awake at home. Still, it's not exactly "bare metal" when ran using the SDL wrapper, now.
15:01:47 <alise> Well, yes, but it /is/ bizarre enough to be amusing.
15:02:30 <fizzie> Maybe I should build a Windows binary, just for the discordance.
15:03:06 <alise> fizzie: There is a Windows colorForth already.
15:03:58 <alise> fizzie: I doubt you'd get any Linux-specific bits to work, anyway.
15:04:06 <alise> Assuming there /are/ some; I'm not exactly sure how modified color.s is.
15:04:19 <alise> Well, it must be, since it's gas syntax.
15:05:51 <fizzie> The assembly bits don't seem to be doing very much Linux-specific things, though. The main.c wrapper passes on a pointer to the SDL surface pixel data, and two function pointers, one for refreshing the screen, and another for polling for keypresses.
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15:22:46 * Sgeo wonders what alise thinks of factor
15:23:48 <alise> The language is very interesting. The infrastructure, libraries and tools they have built themselves are utterly astonishing, surpassing many commercial languages. The language itself I'm not sure about; it doesn't seem that natural to use to me, but maybe I just haven't adjusted.
15:24:18 <Sgeo> Does it parse itself the way Forth does?
15:24:36 <alise> It has the facilities for such words, yes.
15:24:38 <Sgeo> I remember once looking at Factor and almost immediately rejecting it for some reason
15:24:58 <alise> Everything's a bit more semantically-refined, which makes the reflective tools better, the code sometimes easier to understand.
15:25:15 <Sgeo> Now that I kind of get Forth, I think I'd be more ok with Factor
15:25:47 <alise> I think it is definitely worth checking out.
15:25:54 <alise> The tools and libraries /are/ absolutely amazing.
15:26:25 <Sgeo> Do you think it might supplant my current love for Smalltalk?
15:26:36 <Sgeo> Also, AW bindings for Factor!
15:26:45 <Sgeo> (Probably more reasonable than for Forth)
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15:27:09 <alise> If I could obliterate every single bit comprising AW in this universe I would just to stop you trying to make bindings for it.
15:28:26 <Sgeo> Is " a word or something in Factor? There's no space between it and the content of the string
15:28:32 <fizzie> Maybe it's just some sort of a neurosis. You know, some people can't stand when a painting is hanging crooked, or need to alphabetize other people's books/records/whatever? Maybe some people just feel the need to write AW bindings for absolutely everything.
15:29:28 <Sgeo> You know, AW bindings are a project that I want to do, and I should do some sort of project in each language I really want to understand...
15:30:03 <fizzie> Just stick to writing more and more Befunge interpreters, like us sane people do.
15:30:54 <alise> Sgeo: " is syntax; I think you can define your own syntax.
15:31:08 <alise> Sgeo: Definable syntax.
15:32:21 * alise downloads factor-linux-x86-64-2010-08-29-14-56.tar.gz
15:32:40 <alise> One of my patches almost sort-of made it into Factor!
15:32:50 <alise> It made it in, just with a few changes
15:33:12 <alise> If you're on *nix, when you divide by zero you get a proper error message, not a vague "system error" type one.
15:33:15 <alise> As well as other such errors.
15:33:29 <alise> (Vague system error + meaningless number)
15:33:40 <Sgeo> alise, when, exactly, did you start learning programming?
15:33:41 <alise> Because I wrote some errno -> error string code and replaced the error handler with that.
15:33:50 <alise> This was about a year ago.
15:34:18 <alise> Sgeo: It's hard to answer. Well, I fumbled with PHP at 8; fumbled is the right world, it was all cargo cult and misconceptions and no understanding.
15:34:20 <Sgeo> I love Factor's unit test stuff, I think
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15:34:43 <alise> By about 10 I was starting to have a better understanding of stuff; I still did PHP, but it was pretty well thought-out PHP.
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15:35:04 <alise> (I picked up Javascript, SQL, etc. in the interim of all this.)
15:35:25 <alise> Age 11 I think I picked up Ruby and after a while this sort of banged into my head about how I need to organise code. This is 2007.
15:36:04 <alise> Then by 12 I somehow covered the basics of tons of stuff including Lisp etc; I think I first touched Haskell when I was 13.
15:36:13 <alise> Sgeo: And, uh, it's pretty much been gradual improvement since then.
15:36:16 <alise> What a boring history.
15:36:31 <alise> But yeah, it was more gradual than "I started learning programming when I was N."
15:36:52 <alise> (I mean, I was copying and modifying BASIC examples so they broke into -- I think a BBC Micro or something -- when I was really little.)
15:37:14 <Sgeo> I might have done something like that if I wasn't under the constant impression that you need to pay money
15:37:27 <Sgeo> Read about VB, Perl, and a bunch of other languages
15:37:45 <Sgeo> Wrote some VB at summer camp, I think
15:37:49 <alise> Yes, well, proprietary software has made sure the programming child is more-or-less stillborn.
15:38:20 <Sgeo> 9th grade or so, started with Python, mostly because it was free (Didn't get started with Java, although I read about it first)
15:39:19 <Sgeo> Hmm, when was I experimenting with Magsbot
15:39:27 <Sgeo> That might be sooner than Python
15:39:53 <Sgeo> Magsbot 2003 or so. 9th grade 2003 or so
15:40:11 <Sgeo> WHen using Magsbot, I somehow guessed that it used "" to escape quotes
15:40:22 <Sgeo> (Or maybe '', don't remember which is its string syntax)
15:42:20 <alise> What's 9th grade, age-wise?
15:43:49 <Sgeo> 2003 - 1989 = 2004 - 1990 = 14
15:45:30 <Sgeo> Huh. I assume Factor's [ ] doesn't stay in the dictionary the way Forth's :noname ; does
15:45:37 <alise> Sgeo: Everyone else is at a ridiculous disadvantage to me, since I've had a computer since I was 3. So don't feel bad :-P
15:47:25 <alise> Sgeo: It's a proper closure.
15:47:32 <alise> (Forth's isn't, having not really a true concept of a closure.)
15:47:40 <alise> Sgeo: Try not to compare it too much to Forth.
15:47:43 <alise> It's concatenative more than stack-based.
15:47:59 <Sgeo> Never heard of those until I started reading about Forth
15:48:10 <alise> Sgeo: Joy is the "purest" concatenative language: like a stack calculus,
15:48:27 <alise> We say that everything is a function, and usually in a language if you have something like "x y", it means x(y)
15:48:27 <Sgeo> How is Forth impure? >.>
15:48:36 <alise> We say instead that "x y" = y . x
15:48:40 <alise> function composition
15:48:49 <alise> And we say that the whole program is applied to an empty stack
15:49:02 <alise> dup is the function dup({x,...}) = {x,x,...}
15:49:08 <alise> drop({x,...}) = {...}
15:49:13 <alise> swap({x,y,...}) = {y,x,...}
15:49:25 <alise> But we also have [...], which pushes the list of words inside on to the stack.
15:49:33 <Sgeo> I think I might like this more than Haskell
15:49:37 <alise> We have i, which takes a [...] off the top of the stack and puts all the words inside it after the i.
15:49:38 <Sgeo> It seems easier
15:49:45 <alise> [a b c] i => a b c
15:49:54 <alise> Sgeo: So as you can see this is utterly pure and functional.
15:49:58 <alise> And not imperative.
15:50:05 <alise> Factor has more in common with it than it does Forth.
15:50:09 <Sgeo> Well, probably not, but I'm thinking in stacky mode
15:50:11 <alise> So think functionally.
15:50:22 <alise> Think functionally.
15:50:29 <alise> i.e., concatenatively.
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15:51:58 * Sgeo bibbles at checking stack effect
15:52:24 <Sgeo> BRB. I may or may not remain connected
15:52:24 <alise> In a good or bad way?
15:52:38 <Sgeo> In a, how does it work way
15:53:47 <alise> Each word inside's stack effect is known.
15:53:50 <alise> Just cascade them.
15:54:06 <alise> Also, what the fuck is bibbling. I assume some Creatures thing.
15:56:24 <Sgeo> alise, what happens with ifs?
15:56:50 <Sgeo> Well, I guess they're checked, but how do you define your own thing that needs to work with stack checking?
15:56:51 <alise> Both branches have to have the same stack effect, I think.
15:56:59 <alise> Sgeo: It Just Works.
15:57:03 <alise> Don't worry about it.
15:57:19 <alise> It's not something you define.
15:57:27 <alise> (Nor a heuristic, for that matter.)
16:00:19 <alise> Sgeo: Basically, every word has to have a consistent stack effect.
16:01:40 <Sgeo> I haven't downloaded Factor yet
16:02:21 <alise> Lemme find the manual page for yu.
16:02:55 <alise> Sgeo: http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-if,kernel.html
16:03:06 <alise> Includes the definition.
16:03:14 <alise> (This can be conjured up with \ if help in the graphical listener.)
16:04:02 <alise> Sgeo: Basically, anything you write yourself will be composed of smaller primitives that already have a known stack effect, which Factor will check you adhere to.
16:04:12 <alise> So, any conditionals or whatever you write will already work with them.
16:04:24 <alise> No need to declare anything, since /every other word's stack effect is known/.
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16:05:06 <alise> Sgeo: The only word with an unknown stack effect is call: http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-call,kernel.html.
16:05:13 <alise> "Words which call an input parameter must be declared inline so that a caller which passes in a literal quotation can have a static stack effect."
16:05:28 -!- cpressey has joined.
16:05:33 <alise> There's call( stack -- effect )
16:05:38 <alise> Which does what you think it does.
16:05:44 -!- derdon has joined.
16:05:47 <alise> (Requires a ( stack -- effect ) quotation on the top of the stack, and calls it.)
16:05:57 <alise> So call is generally not used; it's pretty evil.
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16:06:15 <alise> (But used by functions to implement safe ones, such as if, so it's there.)
16:06:50 <alise> Sgeo: Oh yeah, and Factor compiles to very compact, efficient native code (no C compiler or whatever).
16:07:09 <alise> It's pretty competitive with SBCL, which is pretty much the gold standard for language implementation, bowing only to O'Caml and C.
16:07:28 <Sgeo> Wait, if call can only be used with statically defined ... thingies, what's the point?
16:07:37 <Sgeo> erm, [ ] thingies
16:07:58 <alise> Sgeo: for example, if.
16:08:15 <alise> The two quotations ("[ ] thingies") are always static.
16:08:19 <alise> But the boolean to branch on is not.
16:08:38 <alise> So as you can see, "? call" is if.
16:08:56 <alise> Yet you can't pass a dynamically-generated quotation to if. Well, you can, but only if it's known at compile time.
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16:09:13 <alise> (Composition, etc.)
16:09:20 <alise> Sgeo: What I'm saying is, don't worry about it.
16:09:29 <alise> Not a heuristic or a hack.
16:09:37 <Sgeo> Bubut... how can I store a quotation, then?
16:09:40 <Sgeo> For later use?
16:09:58 <alise> Okay, clearly you don't know Factor enough to understand half of the edge-cases I'm explaining.
16:10:03 <alise> Sgeo: Forget everything I said.
16:10:34 <alise> Yes, it always works. No, it's not a heuristic. No, it's not hacky. It's like Haskell's type checking, only it never needs help from you.
16:10:50 <Sgeo> She made her own slides
16:11:14 <Sgeo> The Perl professor
16:11:24 <Sgeo> And she just emphasized that it's "Perl", not "PERL"
16:11:28 <alise> Learning Perl and Factor at the same time. Great idea... XD
16:11:45 <Sgeo> I'm learning Factor for fun. I'm learning Perl because I have to at this school
16:12:13 <alise> Don't blame me when you write [ + ] $foo = ;
16:12:17 <cpressey> A school that makes you learn Perl. That's... very interesting.
16:12:30 <alise> cpressey: At least the prof seems sane enough to teach best practices.
16:12:37 <alise> Which make Perl into a good enough language.
16:13:29 <cpressey> alise: Yes, it just seems like such a... non-academic choice, somehow. Java, C++, Python would all beat it out in most heads that I've seen.
16:13:44 <cpressey> For different, maybe bad, reasons.
16:13:47 <Sgeo> This is a non-academic course
16:14:01 <cpressey> PHP is what you should be learning!
16:14:01 <Sgeo> "Computer Programming and Information Systems"
16:14:07 <alise> And a non-academic university, from the sounds of it >____>
16:14:08 <Sgeo> It's in the school of business
16:14:18 <alise> Isn't "unacademic" a word?
16:14:22 <alise> Whatever, of course it is.
16:14:35 <alise> I love how vague ICT-style names get each passing year.
16:14:38 <alise> Information Systems!
16:14:42 <alise> Information Nodes!
16:14:45 <alise> Information... Technology!
16:14:52 <alise> Information ENTITIES!
16:15:15 <cpressey> Sadly, Information Systems and Information Technology are pretty old and standard at this point.
16:16:05 <cpressey> So what is this SBCL? I should know this
16:16:14 <alise> cpressey: Steel Bank Common Lisp.
16:16:23 <alise> CMUCL's developed descendant.
16:16:39 <alise> cpressey: Carnegie Mellon University Common Lisp.
16:16:43 <alise> Figure out the pun and get a cookie.
16:16:56 <cpressey> "Compiled Lisp" always makes me blink.
16:17:05 <alise> It's how Common Lisp is done.
16:17:14 <alise> (That is, figure out the pun in SBCL's name using CMUCL's.)
16:17:14 <cpressey> alise: OK, working on it. Still too early to take apart deep, profound puns, you know.
16:17:23 <alise> cpressey: I could just tell you.
16:17:46 <cpressey> Or I could jkust read it inadvertently on the wp page, which I just did. Sorry.
16:18:48 <alise> cpressey: But yeah, O'Caml and SBCL are very near the top of the fastest functional languages. (Only beaten by weird things like ATS, probably.)
16:18:55 <alise> SBCL is competitive with gcc in many cases.
16:19:03 <alise> O'Caml regularly gets gcc performance on well-written code.
16:19:13 <alise> Factor is competitive with SBCL. So pretty fast, and all that.
16:19:31 <cpressey> alise: Interesting. My perception was that ghc was one of the top runners. That's like 8 years out of date, maybe.
16:19:54 <cpressey> Not gcc-level, obviously, and good for a lazy language, but still.
16:20:15 <alise> cpressey: ghc is quite a few places down. But it's good if you either write ridiculously strict, imperative code /or/ write code that makes its stream fusion and other advanced features happy.
16:20:40 <alise> Run-of-the-mill, not-cleverly-written (not just for performance, in general) Haskell code isn't very fast with GHC. (And it takes up terabytes of memory.)
16:21:01 <alise> Impressive for Haskell, though. :P
16:23:11 <Sgeo> hash table == dictionary, right?
16:23:19 <Sgeo> She asked if anyone worked with hash tables before..
16:23:29 <cpressey> hash table implements dictionary
16:23:35 <alise> what cpressey said
16:23:39 <alise> only python calls them dictionaries :P
16:23:53 <Sgeo> C# dictionaries are different?
16:24:01 <alise> Who gives a fuck about C#.
16:24:21 <cpressey> I should start writing C# just to piss alise off.
16:24:26 <alise> cpressey: Pet peeve: "associative array". It might not be an array, moron!
16:24:39 <alise> You fail at generality, Wikipedia.
16:24:44 <cpressey> alise: Yeah, I never liked that term either.
16:32:22 <Sgeo> Factor does have an FFI, right?
16:32:45 <alise> Sgeo: An excellent one.
16:32:56 <alise> Sgeo: The entire UI is written in OpenGL, in Factor.
16:33:08 <alise> With Cocoa, Win32 and X11 backends; again in Factor.
16:33:31 <alise> Indeed, it even comes with a full libc binding in the stdlib.
16:33:45 <alise> Sgeo: you haven't seen the UI yet, have you?
16:34:05 <alise> Factor is possibly the most well-documented and comprehensive community-developed language there is.
16:34:17 <alise> The documentation viewer is wonderful, the debugger is great, etc.
16:34:39 <Sgeo> How about on-the-fly modification of code?
16:34:49 <alise> You can click on a word in the listener (REPL) to look at its documentation, which is always useful. (It'll also tell you where a word is, if you use it and haven't imported the right module; it will import it for you if you want).
16:34:53 <alise> Sgeo: what do you mean?
16:34:57 <alise> like modifying the standard library>
16:35:02 <Sgeo> alise, Smalltalk style, or Erlang style
16:35:10 <alise> Sgeo: Yep: \ sqrt edit
16:35:18 <alise> Opens in your defined editor (one of many).
16:35:29 <alise> The best one to use is Emacs with the comprehensive Factor mode whose name I forget.
16:35:34 <alise> It integrates tightly with the listener.
16:35:47 <Sgeo> Ok, I'm cancelling the Smalltalk bindings project
16:36:08 <alise> cpressey: Now Factor is his girlfriend.
16:36:25 <alise> Oh, FUEL is the name of the Emacs thing.
16:36:26 <cpressey> alise: Oh dear. Falcon will become very, very jealous.
16:36:38 <alise> cpressey: Nonono, Forth! Or was it Smalltalk?
16:36:57 <alise> I guess Smalltalk isn't the basis of a long-term relationship. LOLOLOLOL SEE WUT I DID THAR
16:37:59 <Sgeo> She had trouble figuring out why '\\n' and '\n' were giving her the same thing
16:38:23 <Sgeo> She expected '\\n' to give her a newline
16:38:31 <alise> Maybe she is retarded, then.
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16:40:07 <alise> Sgeo: BTW, I do think you have to re-load a module before your saved changes take effect.
16:40:11 <alise> That's reasonable, though.
16:40:24 <Sgeo> Can the project still be running while it's reloaded?
16:40:40 <alise> Uhhhh... not really. I assume by project you mean "some word".
16:41:25 * Sgeo facepalms at Perl
16:42:21 <Sgeo> The whole automatic conversion of strings to numbers etc
16:47:32 <alise> [[The f parsing word adds the f object to the parse tree, and is also the class whose sole instance is the f object. The f object is the singleton false value, the only object that is not true. The f object is not equal to the f class word, which can be pushed on the stack using word wrapper syntax:]]
16:48:44 <Sgeo> Please tell me that `perl' is a REPL and that I just haven't figured out how to use it
16:50:00 <Sgeo> Not quite a REPL
16:50:04 <Sgeo> But still easier to use
16:50:22 <Sgeo> And she just said that she won't teach it to the students right now because she doesn't have anything prepared
16:52:30 <cpressey> Sgeo: If you've figured it out, please let me know.
16:52:54 <Vorpal> as far as I remember perl reading from standard in is simply perl reading from stdin. Though I may be wrong.
16:53:14 <alise> gets you the debugger
16:53:17 <alise> which is almost a REPL
16:53:25 <alise> usually it's easier to just write a script, though
16:53:27 <alise> Sgeo: there ARE perl repls
16:53:30 <Sgeo> Just `perl' is also easy
16:53:37 <Sgeo> Although perhaps annoying
16:53:37 <alise> Devel::REPL is the best
16:53:39 <Vorpal> yeah cpan probably has a few REPLs
16:53:42 <alise> but to get that you need to figure out cpan
16:53:45 <alise> and cpan is LIQUID PAIN
16:53:51 <alise> cpanplus is better, so you'd want that
16:53:54 <Sgeo> Nothing wrong with
16:53:56 <alise> of course, you'd have to install cpanplus
16:53:59 <Sgeo> #Some perl code
16:54:00 * cpressey never thought of using the debugger as a repl.
16:54:07 <Vorpal> alise, depends on distro. Gentoo had a tool to generate ebuilds for cpan packages iirc
16:54:08 <alise> cpressey: ais523 told me that trick
16:54:11 <Vorpal> which worked quite well
16:54:15 <cpressey> I usually just use -e "print 56 * 71;" on the command line
16:54:23 <Vorpal> alise, that will indeed be painful
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17:02:32 <cpressey> Well, in case anyone cares, I have essentially finished Eightebed. Might want to tweak the doc is all, then need to find a time to publish it. Also, I built qemu last night and ran BefOS under it. Also rebuilt BefOS from source (it has a recursive makefile, but in my defense, it (a) is broken and (b) includes the comment "This is so wrong." at the top.)
17:04:08 <Vorpal> cpressey, recursive as in calling itself by invoking make?
17:04:27 <alise> Vorpal: you know what a fucking recursive makefile is.
17:04:46 <Vorpal> alise, yes and that tends to be invoke make in a subdir by calling make in a rule
17:04:59 <alise> *clap* *clap* *clap*
17:05:00 <Vorpal> alise, my question still stands
17:05:03 <alise> So you didn't need to ask anything, really.
17:05:26 <Vorpal> alise, because recursive make in the other sense sounds quite fun
17:08:11 <Vorpal> recursive make has some perfectly legal uses. For example /usr/src/Makefile on FreeBSD is recursive as far as I remember. Or are you suggesting a single makefile for kernel, libc, userspace programs and so on should feel free to implement that. Would likely be quite a pain
17:08:26 <Vorpal> since you can rebuild only a subtree. That still has to work
17:09:00 <alise> include libc/Makefile
17:09:08 <cpressey> Why would rebuilding a subtree not work with a monolithic Makefile?
17:09:26 <alise> I suppose Vorpal recursively calls the interpreter rather than using "require" statements, too.
17:09:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, it could, would have to be run from the top dir though
17:09:45 <alise> libc/Makefile could have all the stuff needed to build the libc.
17:09:50 <alise> The makefile in . would include it.
17:09:52 <Vorpal> alise, yes in the sense that cd libc; make
17:09:59 <alise> cd libc; make would work
17:10:07 <alise> Vorpal: of course it would
17:10:12 <alise> you write the libc makefile in the libc directory
17:10:14 <alise> and include it one above
17:10:23 <alise> you have to handle some directory differences, but nothing unsolvable
17:10:24 <cpressey> I have made a makefile that calls itself, once, fwiw, but it was limited to one level of recursion that way.
17:10:25 <Vorpal> alise, as far as I can tell that need some path mangling
17:10:37 <alise> makefiles can have a target to make themselves
17:10:45 <alise> when this happens, make automatically calls it again with the new makefile
17:10:52 <alise> (this is for managing dependencies automatically; I have used it)
17:11:07 <alise> Makefile: $(SRCS) \ ... run makedep or gcc -Msomething or whatever ...
17:11:18 <alise> (and append to make.deps)
17:11:32 <alise> and it'll always generate new dependencies and include the updated file if you change the sources
17:11:48 <Vorpal> alise, yes but that is not the same as calling itself in the sense of: foo:\n\tmake bar
17:12:05 <alise> It's metanough for me.
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17:12:17 <Vorpal> alise, and a lot more boring
17:12:22 <Vorpal> alise, about as boring as kexec ;P
17:13:10 <alise> I'd say a Makefile rule is a lot more interesting than ZOMG CALLING THE PROGRAM MAKE INSIDE A MAKEFILE.
17:14:13 <fizzie> "Evolving Intelligent Systems. Methodology and Applications"; as far as course names go, that's a bit on the pretentious side. (It's just about on-line learning in different machine-learning contexts.)
17:14:52 <Vorpal> alise, depends on how you use it. I mean, C++ templates in general are not that interesting. But when used to do advanced compile time computation it is a bit more interesting, in an esoteric way
17:15:10 <Vorpal> I'm quite sure you could use make calling itself for some interesting hacks
17:15:21 <alise> fizzie: Programming GOD. An introductory AI course.
17:15:57 <fizzie> alise: "To further confuse matters, Murray also has a tendency to rename his theory frequently; it’s variously referred to as the Concept-Fiber Theory of Mind, the Fiber-Concept Theory of Mind, the AI4U Theory of Mind, the Mentifex Theory of Mind, the Standard Model of the Mind, Project Mentifex, the First Detailed Theory of Mind, and the Grand Unified Theory of Mind."
17:16:23 <fizzie> (Grand Unified Theory of Mind, especially.)
17:16:46 <alise> is that the mentifex guy?
17:16:56 <fizzie> Yes, it's from the Mentifex FAQ.
17:18:20 <fizzie> There was yet another comp.lang.forth (or Usenet in general) newcomer who was all "ooh, he's been working on this for twenty years all by himself; this is the sort of project that generates Real Science(tm), versus the corrupt capitalistic committee-driven universities, pshaw".
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17:18:42 <alise> Forth does attract the crazies a bit.
17:20:26 <fizzie> alise: MindForth Programming Journal (MFPJ) 2010 August 25: http://p.zem.fi/mpfj-2010-aug-25 -- see, he's almost completely "solved AI".
17:21:13 <fizzie> That one was crossposted to comp.lang.forth,comp.ai.nat-lang,comp.robotics.misc,alt.consumers.free-stuff -- especially the last group seems to be incredibly relevant.
17:21:36 <alise> madbrain2: what's .nsf again?
17:22:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
17:22:38 <madbrain2> the songs from famicompo 7 are out
17:25:43 <fizzie> alise: Hey, http://zem.fi/~fis/xcf.png -- I just copy-pasted those commands from that paste here at home, and that happened.
17:26:26 <alise> where's the dvorak keyboard?
17:26:42 <fizzie> Too bad I can't use that thing at all.
17:26:58 <alise> fizzie: http://www.colorforth.com/keys.html
17:27:01 <alise> The keys there are the two halves
17:27:08 <alise> left alt switches keypads
17:27:11 <alise> "e " starts the editor
17:27:48 <fizzie> I've seen that, but it's still oh-so-confusing! I'm going to try having fun at some other time.
17:28:36 <alise> fizzie: You basically have to be Chuck Moore.
17:28:45 <alise> Reading the site and http://colorforthray.info/ may help. MAY.
17:28:48 <fizzie> I need to be registering for a WAVE UNIVERSITY account, anyway; they're going to put all the IT systems of the three separate universities into a blender, and then making us eat the sludge that comes out of it.
17:29:29 <alise> if you guys form some committee to create a modern university in mexico
17:29:35 <alise> Mexican Wave University
17:29:44 <alise> like in cooperation with yours
17:30:36 <fizzie> Best wavelet ever: the Mexican hat wavelet.
17:32:21 <alise> fizzie: Ooh! Or if you get bought out by Google:
17:32:24 <alise> Google Wave University
17:40:42 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:41:26 <fizzie> Yay, my new Wave account lets me download the ISO of COMSOL Multiphysics 4.0a. (It's some sort of finite-element solver/simulator we have a campus license for.)
17:44:38 <cpressey> colorForth: Gives Chuck Moore the programmer productivity of twenty Chuck Moores!
17:51:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, so hm. This wave university thingy seems rather messy.
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18:24:58 <cpressey> So, yes, BefOS is rubbish. But it *was* pretty cool running it on actual bare metal (a disused 486 desktop back in the day) and having to wait for the actual, physical floppy to seek, when paging up and down. Putative todo list: Clean up the code base, Switch to unreal mode on boot, Allow editing memory pages, Implement an actual VM for it (likely something rather befungeoid, but not Befunge), Rebrand the thing because
18:25:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, because what?
18:25:34 <Vorpal> I think your line was cut short
18:25:44 <cpressey> ... Rebrand the thing because I don't like the name BefOS.
18:25:57 <Vorpal> yeah it was cut after "because"
18:26:14 <Vorpal> cpressey, strange irc client that doesn't automatically split overly long lines
18:29:41 <alise> cpressey: does it actually have a UI?
18:30:33 <Vorpal> alise, how do you define UI here?
18:36:58 <cpressey> alise: Yes, it has a user interface. After a fashion.
18:38:10 * Vorpal considers a makefile based init script system
18:38:15 <cpressey> I was thinking "Rewrite UI in the befungeoid VM" as one of the todo items, but didn't write it, because I'm not sure. Rewriting some of the system in the interpreted language, yes.
18:38:47 <Vorpal> I think that might actually work rather well
18:40:57 <cpressey> also need to document the key mappings, rather badly (I swear they used to be, I must have lost that page.)
18:41:40 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm, how large is the funge space of this thing?
18:42:22 <cpressey> Vorpal: It's a set of 80x25 pages. Each of those is 2K. There are currently as many as will fit on a floppy.
18:43:10 <Vorpal> cpressey, I think that with 64-bit mode you do some cleaver stuff with the virtual pages so you can have a flat funge-space, not with 64-bit cells of course. And then allocate pages as needed
18:43:18 <Vorpal> you can't do fully 32 bit cells either
18:44:44 <alise> Yes, because long mode is SUPER FUN.
18:44:51 <Vorpal> because 1) 48 bits actually usable with a hole in "the middle", and sign extending the addresses in the upper half 2) you need a few pages for interpreter code and meta data
18:46:24 <Vorpal> cpressey, what I'm suggesting that you with 16-bit cells could do something like BASE+y*SOMETHING+x and then use that address in your virtual address space as the funge space position
18:47:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, you need BASE because you want a few pages somewhere to keep track of what physical memory is mapped where and also the interpreter code
18:47:30 <cpressey> Vorpal: The VM language is only going to superficially resemble Befunge, and even then, the Befunge it resembles is Befunge-93.
18:47:32 <Vorpal> of course you could put that at the top
18:47:52 <cpressey> So - 16 bits is plenty to describe a position in an 80x25 page
18:47:54 <Vorpal> cpressey, right, I was just discussing a rather hackish use of paging
18:48:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, to abuse that to create a sparse array
18:48:20 <Vorpal> sparse by page faulting if the page isn't used already
18:48:40 <cpressey> No page faults. Not protected mode. Of course, you're free to write your own OS.
18:48:46 <Vorpal> you probably don't want BASE+y*SOMETHING+x, horrible for cache if traveling much in y
18:49:20 <Vorpal> so maybe hilberts space filling curve, not sure how fast that is to compute
18:49:27 <Vorpal> or interleaving x and y bits
18:49:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, I KNOW! I was just discussing an interesting hack I thought of
18:49:59 <Vorpal> cpressey, which would be possible only on OS level
18:50:26 <Vorpal> cpressey, stop being so negative
18:51:06 <alise> Vorpal: Chill, dude.
18:51:17 <Vorpal> cpressey, how many 80x25 pages btw?
18:51:41 <cpressey> <cpressey> Vorpal: It's a set of 80x25 pages. Each of those is 2K. There are currently as many as will fit on a floppy.
18:51:51 <Vorpal> cpressey, and I don't know how many fits on a floppy
18:52:01 <Vorpal> cpressey, because you didn't say which type of floppy
18:52:32 <Vorpal> I know I have at least 3 types in this room. Only two of which I can read
18:52:51 <Vorpal> the one I can't read is a *floppy* floppy.
18:53:19 <alise> Vorpal: You're not funny, interesting or clever by peddling such needless pedantry at that in an attempt to keep the conversation going.
18:53:27 <alise> And since he said 486, you know perfectly well which kind he meant.
18:53:32 <Vorpal> alise, there are several floppy variants that work in normal "PC" floppy drives
18:53:36 <cpressey> Vorpal: Um. Are you needing to know the exact number of pages the current version has available?
18:53:57 <cpressey> Because, see, I thought you would be satisfied with an impression, an order of magnitude, you know?
18:54:00 <alise> Vorpal: And you know damn well that if he meant anything other than 1.44 MB, he'd have said so, it being an ABNORMAL case.
18:54:00 <Vorpal> cpressey, no, just roughly would be enough
18:54:15 <Vorpal> alise, I have more of those old single sided ones than I have 1.44 MB
18:54:26 <Vorpal> alise, so no I didn't know that
18:54:39 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, you do, probably because your brain optimises for being as much of an edge-case as you can so you have something to talk about.
18:55:35 <Vorpal> alise, personal insults. How fun
18:55:57 <Vorpal> do you really want to take the discussion that low?
18:56:09 <alise> It was not a personal insult. Well, it was, but it was not ad hominem.
18:56:46 <Vorpal> alise, I wound say it was highly inaccurate though. Relevant... maybe to some degree. Could have been more irrelevant at least.
18:57:02 <fizzie> You people are seriously the worst getting-along people I know of; sometimes I like to consider the absurdity of a Vorpal-alise collaborative project, the existence of which would cause the world to collapse.
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18:58:10 <alise> fizzie: To be fair, he /is/ the stupidest person /I/ know of. (Now watch as he copies my sentence structure!)
18:58:17 <alise> I guess that's not particularly fair to stupid people.
18:58:34 <Vorpal> alise, that was ad hominem though
18:58:46 <alise> Vorpal: Incorrect again, my friend; *that* was not an argument. :)
18:59:29 <alise> No, it wasn't; I merely said it, not submitted it as an argument for some debate.
18:59:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw I have a new pano I took at university yesterday coming up in a bit.
19:00:19 <Sgeo> alise, you mentioned that there was something you didn't like about Factor?
19:00:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, mobile camera, but turned out rather well if you don't zoom in too much. Matches up well in all but one place
19:00:52 <alise> Sgeo: Uh, I just never got in to the language itself. Maybe I will now.
19:01:00 <alise> Slava Pestov is an awesome guy; #concatenative is a really nice channel.
19:01:09 <alise> (It's technically for non-Factor stuff too, but it's the Factor channel.)
19:01:26 <alise> It's a good project.
19:01:50 * Sgeo mutters something incomprehensible about every image based language thinking it owns .image
19:01:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Speaking of photography, look what we found from the local IKEA; a TRÅDIG-model cat: http://zem.fi/~fis/ikea-cat.jpg
19:02:02 <alise> Sgeo: file extensions aren't owned, Windowser.
19:03:34 <fizzie> It's been doing some interior design improvements to the box (read: eating it) after the picture was taken, though.
19:04:10 <alise> Woohoo! Factor perfectly integrated with Emacs.
19:04:59 * alise right-clicks Edit on a random word; the file opens in Emacs, scrolled to the definition
19:05:03 <alise> I have infinite power
19:05:24 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: Speaking of photography, look what we found from the local IKEA; a TRÅDIG-model cat: http://zem.fi/~fis/ikea-cat.jpg <-- what a fitting name. Well "hårig" would have been even better
19:05:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://omploader.org/vNWVyMA
19:06:37 <fizzie> I think I've seen a similar-looking building before.
19:06:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes but then it was like 2 meter of snow outside
19:06:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, and the pano didn't match up well at all
19:07:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, I tried a vertical pano
19:07:47 <Vorpal> but that is near impossible without some mount
19:09:32 <Vorpal> hm there are actually 2 seams
19:10:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw we will be using RCX in a lab next week.
19:10:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, communication protocol lab
19:11:00 <Vorpal> so rather strange choice of unit for it
19:11:06 <fizzie> What sort of play-university is that place?-)
19:11:12 <Vorpal> though I guess it is a nice and simple protocol to start with
19:11:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, hey the RCX was developed at MIT so...
19:11:46 <Vorpal> well, at MIT together with lego to be exact
19:12:25 <fizzie> The only "telecommunications" "labwork" (if you can call it that) I did just used a network of six virtual machines or so. But I guess this is a bit lower-level communications-protocol and less networking-infrastructure thing?
19:12:51 <alise> Sgeo: btw, the factor wiki and pastebin are coded in factor
19:12:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway the IR protocol is probably good for the first lab in the network and communication course. There were TCP/IP labs and so on later on
19:12:57 <alise> Sgeo: and included with the distribution
19:13:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is more later on
19:13:07 * cpressey wonders whatever happened to Pliant
19:13:27 <Sgeo> alise, including a non-static website with software seems nonsensical. I assume you mean a URL
19:13:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, but I guess since it is a introductory course, they don't want to start off with a too complex protocol
19:13:35 <alise> Sgeo: The code .....................
19:14:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: We had a "Unix programming" special course; I found something like 16 more-or-less-serious (some *very* minor, admittedly) errors/unclarities in the course slides.
19:14:19 <Sgeo> I should probably uninstall WIn32Forth at some point
19:14:28 <cpressey> Apparently Pliant is still around at http://www.pliantcode.com/ and http://fullpliant.org/doc/
19:14:51 <alise> cpressey: what the heck is it?
19:14:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yeah, this first lab will also serve as a way to learn *nix iirc. For those that don't know it
19:14:57 <alise> why should i care about it?
19:15:10 <alise> [[In computer software programming languages history, Pliant is the first attempt to connect C and LISP branches.
19:15:10 <alise> It was written by Hubert Tonneau, first published in 1999, and is released under GNU General Public License version 2.]]
19:15:15 <alise> like nobody tried that before 1999
19:15:43 <cpressey> Oh, Wikipedia. Thy NPOV shines upon us!
19:15:50 <alise> cpressey: so what is it?
19:15:53 <alise> like, i know what it is
19:16:23 <cpressey> alise: I dunno, something you said about Factor reminded me of it
19:16:53 * Sgeo growls at there being no 3xx level chem courses
19:16:58 <cpressey> A language where you can change the syntax and build your own language! Whee! Yeah, never been done before.
19:17:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, one issue seems to be they are using non-custom firmware on those. Rather annoying. The default lego firmware is horribly bad. And that is "so bad it is bad" bad.
19:17:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: Several were pretty clear errors, like claiming that to delete a file, you need write permission for the file itself. And that you need to have a "extern char **environ;" declaration before you can use getenv/putenv.
19:17:57 <Sgeo> fizzie, was this someplace where you could correct whoever was teaching it?
19:18:14 <cpressey> alise: That's what I understood its schtick to be, yes.
19:18:17 * Sgeo is a major fan of correcting professors
19:18:19 <cpressey> "Pliant is a great language of choice for any of the following example applications: relational database engine, 3D game engine, GMail like web-app, peer-to-peer sharing network, kernel drivers, online web store."
19:18:22 <fizzie> Sgeo: Yes, I think my corrections were credited on the next lecture, even.
19:18:23 <Sgeo> Although it's probably rather rude
19:18:25 <alise> Sgeo: They probably hate your guts.
19:18:27 <Sgeo> fizzie, awesome
19:18:48 <cpressey> It's a great language of choice.
19:18:50 <alise> Well, if you correct purposeful simplifications for the purpose of teaching, that is.
19:19:01 <alise> cpressey: have you gazed upon the delight that is Plain English?
19:19:12 <Sgeo> alise, um, I might have done that once or twice >.>
19:19:26 <alise> Sgeo: That's obnoxious.
19:19:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm to delete a file you need write permission to the containing directory. Hm can you delete a file you can write to but where you can't write to the containing directory?
19:19:41 <alise> madbrain2: it's a programming language
19:19:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: No. Well, unless you consider truncating it to zero bytes, which is sort-of "deleting" it. But not really.
19:20:00 <alise> written in the most warped form of english you can imagine, with a hilarious manual that calls Windows variously the kludge, the whore, etc.
19:20:00 <Sgeo> No nested ifs iirc
19:20:08 <alise> and the compiler is written in itself, which is beautifully horrific
19:20:14 <alise> and it's meant to cost like $100
19:20:20 <alise> but you could get it for free by looking at the js code
19:20:31 <alise> and it had cartoon "testimonials" from claude monet, bill gates, k&r, ...
19:20:59 <cpressey> alise: Holy wow. No, I had not.
19:21:12 <alise> cpressey: http://www.osmosian.com/ they removed their fun cartoon site and replaced it with this
19:21:17 <alise> download the sample application to look at the source
19:21:24 <cpressey> A cartoon testimonial for Monet. That's...oh damn.
19:21:33 <alise> cpressey: it was because of their sample application
19:21:39 <alise> which uses dots to reproduce google image search results
19:21:41 <alise> Slereah can hook you up with the actual compiler etc., which is pure fun to use
19:21:49 <alise> the editor will ONLY start full screen using an awful comic font
19:21:55 <alise> i actually started on a bf interpreter
19:21:57 <alise> but it was too difficult
19:22:03 <alise> to fight with the syntax
19:22:14 <alise> cpressey: Reading the compiler, though, wow.
19:22:17 <fizzie> I may arguably have done that "correct purposeful simplifications" thing back when I got into that argument about *all* floating-point formats being binary (while TI's calculator-floats are BCD); but they were so forcefully insisting on everything everywhere being implemented with base-two fractions and powers of two.
19:22:20 <cpressey> "What do I need to run it? Windows XP or Vista. Yuk."
19:22:22 <alise> cpressey: It has raw hex for all the compiled instructions.
19:22:29 <alise> cpressey: And the rest is written in that mechanical English style.
19:22:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait a second. That isn't true in general
19:22:45 <alise> So really, I am very impressed that they could program something that big and ... well, actually-working in it.
19:22:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, the sticky bit messes things up
19:22:56 <Vorpal> so you need to account for that possibility too
19:23:41 <alise> cpressey: http://www.osmosian.com/manifesto.pdf this thing has the font used in the editor
19:23:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, I did mention that in the correction. But even with the sticky bit set, the original claim -- write permissions on the file -- is still irrelevant.
19:24:03 * Sgeo wonders whether he should do the Your First Program tutorial despite having read it but not acted
19:24:06 <Sgeo> Maybe to get a feel for it
19:24:13 <alise> program runs on the Wintel Kluge, was written entirely in Plain English, and
19:24:13 <alise> re-compiles itself in less than three seconds. That's right. Three seconds.
19:25:30 * Sgeo tries out the deploy tool
19:25:31 <alise> cpressey: Oh yeah, and the whole UI system is based on 1/ns of an inch -- I think n=16
19:26:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, the result of sticky bit on files seems to vary a lot (not implemented is most common though)
19:26:36 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_bit#Usage
19:27:17 <alise> cpressey: You NEED to see the compiler. They call it "the noodle", IIRC.
19:27:24 <alise> Literally that filename. No extension, "the " and all.
19:27:55 <Vorpal> alise, are there really multiple persons behind it?
19:28:02 <alise> How the heck should I know?
19:28:07 <alise> They call themselves The Osmosian Order.
19:28:10 <fizzie> It could be a single guy with a split personality thing.
19:28:12 <alise> Besides, singular they.
19:28:29 <Vorpal> alise, I prefer spivak but sure...
19:28:48 <alise> I'd like to believe that it's twenty or so absolutely crazy, unwashed, unshaven people living in one messy house.
19:29:00 <fizzie> "The Osmosian Order of Plain English Programmers is a group of like-minded developers and educators dedicated to the rescue of computer science from the pervasive fog of confusion engulfing it today."
19:29:06 <alise> Like the world's most crazy-programming-language-oriented group marriage.
19:29:15 <fizzie> The "group" word does sort of suggest >1, while not being absolutely confirmsome.
19:29:20 <alise> fizzie: Yes, well, he could be lying.
19:29:29 <alise> Or self-aggrandising.
19:30:21 <fizzie> Well, osmosian.com is registered by Dan Rzeppa, 610 Scholl Rd, Mansfield, Ohio 44907, United States.
19:31:02 <Vorpal> "The setuid bit was invented by Dennis Ritchie. His employer, AT&T, applied for a patent in 1972; the patent was granted in 1979 as patent number US patent 4135240 "Protection of data file contents". The patent was later placed in the public domain."
19:31:14 <Vorpal> how strange to think that setuid was patented...
19:32:47 <madbrain2> osmosian? yeah that's a classic no?
19:33:46 <fizzie> alise: Uh... I went to a nearby place with Google streetview (Scholl Road itself hasn't been driven on), and got this: http://zem.fi/~fis/scholl.jpg -- I think I'm forced to conclude that The Osmosian Order is a group of extraterrestials.
19:34:03 <alise> fizzie: That makes sense.
19:34:23 <alise> fizzie: The van and its driver became a being of pure energy when it went any further.
19:34:35 <alise> So you can see, you can never reach Scholl Road in this reality.
19:34:38 <Vorpal> <fizzie> alise: Uh... I went to a nearby place with Google streetview (Scholl Road itself hasn't been driven on), and got this: http://zem.fi/~fis/scholl.jpg -- I think I'm forced to conclude that The Osmosian Order is a group of extraterrestials. <-- what the fuck?
19:34:50 <alise> Osmosian - Alien Species Wiki - Aliens, UFOs, Space aliens
19:34:50 <alise> Osmosians are an aliens that look like humans, The name 'Osmosian' is a play on the word "osmosis", the name of the physical process by which a solvent, ...
19:34:56 <alise> Well there you go then.
19:35:00 <alise> http://aliens.wikia.com/wiki/Osmosian
19:36:23 <Sgeo> I only really like emacs when I'm on a terminal
19:36:30 <Sgeo> Vorpal, Factor thingy for Emacs
19:37:06 <Sgeo> o.O I gave up on the deploy Tetris thing
19:37:09 <alise> FUEL is the thing that turns Factor and Emacs into Smalltalk.
19:37:11 <Vorpal> --no-window-system, -nw do not communicate with X, ignoring $DISPLAY
19:37:11 <Sgeo> It just now attempted to finish
19:37:14 <Sgeo> But I deleted stuff
19:37:23 <alise> Vorpal: you are totally misunderstanding him
19:37:26 <alise> possibly purposefully.
19:37:34 * cpressey cannot see past the pervasive fog of confusion that engulfs him.
19:37:39 <Vorpal> alise, hm? He seemed to ask for "not X mode"
19:38:11 <alise> cpressey: Huh, Vorpal's message got marked as being sent by you.
19:38:16 <alise> * cpressey cannot see past the pervasive fog of confusion that engulfs him.
19:38:39 <alise> Vorpal: he means that when using a graphical environment rather than a command-based one, he does not enjoy using Emacs.
19:38:41 <Vorpal> alise, i didn't say that....
19:38:44 <alise> Sgeo: you like Smalltalk, yes?
19:38:58 <alise> Sgeo: Factor + Emacs/FUEL = Smalltalk. srsly
19:39:17 <Vorpal> alise, right. So running it in a terminal inside a GUI environment is not enough?
19:39:58 <alise> Vorpal: please find the nearest dictionary and look up "context", "environment"
19:40:36 <Vorpal> alise, he said none of those words
19:40:40 <Vorpal> "<Sgeo> I only really like emacs when I'm on a terminal"
19:40:58 <cpressey> alise: This compiler, where is it?
19:41:00 <alise> yes, unlike you i can read words and interpret them as their meanings, rather than relying on an ultra-literal legalistic view of the world
19:41:15 <alise> cpressey: you gotta pay for it. apparently if you email them they'll give it to you. try that.
19:41:41 <Vorpal> alise, that statement is ambiguous the way "terminal" is commonly used these days. I do not assume that everyone uses "terminal emulator" when they mean that
19:41:43 <alise> cpressey: yeah, maybe just ask Slereah for it
19:41:45 <Vorpal> since that is generally not true
19:41:53 <alise> Slereah Slereah Slereah
19:42:05 <alise> maybe he will appear
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19:45:53 <cpressey> ais523: Hey, you're not Slereah!
19:46:15 <alise> ais523: we summoned you inadvertently
19:46:16 <cpressey> alise: Crossed wire in the summoning subsystem, I guess.
19:47:08 * alise edits the edit word, finds himself in a world populated by newspaper editors who can only say "edit"
19:49:16 <Sgeo> I'm still in love with the one line unit test stuff
19:53:53 <cpressey> alise: I love those hats of theirs. Well, visors really. They're cool.
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19:59:07 <cpressey> alise: I guess I'm thinking of the guys who run the printing presses.
19:59:57 <cpressey> Geez, here I thought this was iconic, but I can't find a single image on google of one of these dudes.
20:00:05 <cpressey> They wear suspenders, too, I swear!
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20:18:33 <Vorpal> suspenders are rare nowdays though
20:19:00 <Vorpal> saw some old guy at university passing by in a corridor today, had suspenders. Noticed it due to being so rare.
20:20:19 <Vorpal> hm that is en_GB:braces it seems
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20:52:03 <ais523> Vorpal: both words work in British English
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20:52:16 <ais523> "suspenders" means something else over here
20:55:07 <ais523> what Vorpal was saying around 40 minutes ago
20:58:32 <ais523> wow, why does git not have a command to reset a file in the working tree to match what it is at HEAD?
20:59:06 -!- augur has joined.
21:01:05 <ais523> aha, "git checkout"; that was rather inconsistent with the rest of git...
21:01:40 <cpressey> ais523: What does "suspenders" bring to mind in UK English?
21:02:08 <cpressey> "braces" would be things you wear on your teeth to straighten them in NA English...
21:02:29 <ais523> cpressey: they're an item of clothing that prevents long socks falling down
21:02:39 <fizzie> The "git checkout" thing is mentioned everywhere, though. And I'm not sure how inconsistent it is; it checks out things from the repository into the working tree.
21:02:53 <cpressey> ais523: Ah yes. I've seen those, was not aware they had a name.
21:04:01 <fizzie> I guess the fact that it also does branch-switching is a bit overloady.
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21:38:17 <cheater99> why are php related irc channels so fucking useless
21:40:13 <Mathnerd314> because php is so fucking easy to understand
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21:49:17 * oerjan notes that people on the Infinite Featureless Plane of Death walk _fast_
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21:58:44 <oerjan> very self referential, should fit right in
22:01:19 <cpressey> Is it just me, or does Bochs suck now?
22:01:33 <cpressey> (Anticipating alise response: cpressey: Bochs has always sucked.)
22:01:55 <alise> cpressey: Well... it's always been glacially slow.
22:01:56 <cpressey> No, I mean, I can't even get it to boot from boot floppy images now.
22:02:13 <alise> Maybe you did something rong.
22:02:19 <alise> If you're not using the debugger just go QEMU.
22:02:48 <oerjan> time to make things wright, then
22:02:51 <cpressey> Oh, maybe. Bochs won't even start a display on my Ubuntu laptop; I'm using QEMU there. QEMU on Windows looks like hell, though.
22:04:08 -!- madbrain2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:13:22 <cpressey> The name of the BIOS ROM image file that QEMU loads is... hardcoded? Beh
22:13:38 <cpressey> Oh, no. You can give it a dir name it seems.
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22:18:57 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover Phantom_Hoover Phantom_Hoover
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22:32:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> There are at least 16 assorted ground- and airbursts lined up for it, inexplicably.
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22:34:05 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: I would conclude from that, that Edinburgh is where the UK keeps most of *its* nukes.
22:34:38 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: I didn't say it was a conclusion that lined up with reality!
22:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, if you wanted to decapitate Scotland, it might be helpful, but that's basically the only good reason.
22:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's not to kill civilians, since Edinburgh's population isn't even half a million.
22:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, a friend of mine says that it's probably due to its terrain not being very conducive to killing people.
22:40:21 <cpressey> "Damn hills! Our infantry will never be able to get over them. Better nuke that area instead!" ?
22:42:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hills stop radiation and shockwaves, so it wouldn't be completely levelled.
22:45:47 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:47:17 <zzo38> And ImageMagick certainly is suitable for complex editing, I have used ImageMagick for these things.
22:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> So they lined up lots and lots of nukes, to ensure that everyone would die.
22:47:59 <Phantom_Hoover_> While larger cities such as London are on pretty flat ground.
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22:50:50 <zzo38> If you need a graphical user interface, I have used Microsoft Paint and used the "clipboard:" command in ImageMagick to deal with this. This does not work in UNIX systems, though. So in UNIX systems, what I could do is invent variant programs "imx" (Image eXchange) (normal mode), "imxs" (scripting mode", and "imxg" (scripting mode with graphical user interface).
22:51:27 <zzo38> (The GUI can use a view area, script area, and with three mouse buttons and modifier keys, you can do a lot of these operations, the function keys F1 F2 F3 and so on can also be used to select different mouse modes)
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22:52:16 <alise> * zzo38 (~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com) has joined #esoteric
22:52:17 <alise> <zzo38> And ImageMagick certainly is suitable for complex editing, I have used ImageMagick for these things.
22:52:19 <alise> for what things, exactly?
22:52:22 <alise> you failed to specify
22:52:48 <zzo38> alise: Any complex things!
22:52:59 <zzo38> There are a lot of things you can do with it!
22:53:08 <zzo38> I have even used ImageMagick for audio manipulation!
22:55:00 <zzo38> dc has a stack for each register, sort of like the STASH and RETRIEVE commands in INTERCAL......
23:00:47 <cpressey> OK, I have to know. How can ImageMagick be used to manipulate audio??
23:01:03 -!- olsner has joined.
23:01:24 <alise> cpressey: Convert audio data to image data -> apply blur filter -> convert back
23:01:57 <cpressey> I suppose that would... manipulate it.
23:04:03 <alise> You tell 'im, zzo38!
23:06:28 <zzo38> alise: Yes you are right, that is one way.
23:06:49 <zzo38> But since ImageMagick does not support audio formats directly, you would need SoX or something else to convert the formats
23:07:05 <zzo38> SoX already has many effects, but not everything
23:08:03 <zzo38> If I ever write ImX (Image eXchange), then I will add in support for audio formats as well as the picture formats, and also add in "Block JPEG" format, which prevents decompressing/compressing the lossy part of a JPEG.
23:08:32 <zzo38> As well as add in some effects that are useful for audio. The DPI of the picture can be used as the sample rate for audio.
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23:09:11 <alise> "The DPI of the picture can be used as the sample rate for audio."
23:09:40 <alise> That's what she said.
23:10:27 <zzo38> olsner: I guess so, that can work.
23:11:00 * alise fixes a bug in Factor
23:12:06 <alise> (It is a bug in the Brainfuck implementation.)
23:15:59 <zzo38> I have seen a 2600 FAQ that says that shell scripts with SUID can be security hole if you rename it (or make a link to it), called "-i". Can you fix this by changing the shebang like to "#!/bin/bash --" will it work?
23:17:24 <alise> don't make suid shell scripts though
23:17:36 <coppro> modern kernels don't accept suid scripts
23:18:20 <zzo38> Will the SUID just have no effects for shell scripts? Or will it expect the file to be a binary if it has SUID, and say the file is an invalid executable file?
23:20:15 <ais523> zzo38: no, that doesn't fix it
23:20:29 <ais523> well, it fixes that bug, but not another security bug with suid shell scripts
23:21:05 <ais523> which is that if you access the shellscript via a path where one of the directories in it is a symlink, then you can retarget that symlink between the check to see if the script is suid, and the shell actually reading the script
23:21:12 <ais523> so you can get the shell to run some other script suid
23:24:31 <zzo38> ais523: O, that is another thing, I forgot
23:25:09 <coppro> doesn't the kernel just have to hold on to the realpath of the executable to avoid that hole?
23:25:42 <alise> AwesomePressions: S-Expression apart from (...) | Base-10 number n followed by n AwesomePressions, forming a list.
23:25:49 <alise> Also known as: AwfulPressions
23:26:00 <alise> Variant: AwesomeBinaryPressions
23:26:01 <alise> 11 define 10 id x x
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23:31:54 <zzo38> I have many ideas of things that can be added/changed in Linux, one idea is the /proc/$$/9p/ directory
23:32:51 <zzo38> Another idea is Simple Executable File Format
23:34:15 <zzo38> Another idea is, a way to tell it to run another program with overriding some or all system calls, and possibly some other features too
23:34:37 <alise> fizzie: What was the name of that amazing jump game me and oklopol got addicted to?
23:34:50 <alise> You had the level 100 code for it, I believe.
23:43:47 <cpressey> I was confusing this with "100level"
23:44:15 <alise> no; it had 100 levels + some bonuses
23:44:27 <cpressey> Wondering if this was some new language for writing games.
23:44:29 <alise> Dot Action 2! That was it.
23:45:26 <alise> http://offgao.no-ip.org/game/dotact/
23:45:26 <alise> http://offgao.no-ip.org/game/dotact2/
23:45:33 <alise> http://offgao.no-ip.org/game/dotact2_c/ ;; create your own levels!
23:45:58 <alise> The goal is to get all the dots, cpressey.
23:46:03 <alise> You don't need to know Japanese.
23:46:07 <alise> Arrow keys move. Space jumps.
23:46:09 <cpressey> It's still loading the /emulator/?
23:46:13 <alise> cpressey: It's not an emulator.
23:46:16 <alise> It's just fake emulator-text.
23:46:20 <alise> It's loading all the levels.
23:46:36 <alise> Dot Action 2 is the best
23:46:38 <cpressey> Well, this will take some time
23:46:40 <alise> so I'd load that if I were you
23:47:00 <alise> It is really slow from that site
23:47:10 <alise> cpressey: http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/
23:47:21 <alise> SPACE operates the menus.
23:47:57 <alise> Don't be fooled by the simplistic starting levels. It becomes pure gaming itself soon enough!
23:48:46 <alise> It becomes... shall we say, almost impossible near the end.
23:49:41 <alise> cpressey: Stage 5 is the first "haha wow" one.
23:50:17 <cpressey> k. Made it to stage 2. Will continue later, I'm releasing Eightebed right now.
23:50:30 * pikhq has navigates bureaucracy succesfully
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23:54:25 <alise> Oh yeah, and Enter pauses so you can quit.
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23:58:55 <zzo38> I want to do mana symbols like this: \def\R{\redmanalayer\rlap\manasymcircle\manasymred\textlayer}
23:59:57 <zzo38> (Where \redmanalayer and \textlayer are specials)
00:01:49 <zzo38> Sorry, that was wrong, this is correct: \def\R{\redmanalayer\rlap\manasymcircle\textlayer\manasymred}
00:03:33 <alise> Starting program: /home/ehird/jonesforth/jonesforth
00:03:34 <alise> During startup program terminated with signal SIGKILL, Killed.
00:03:49 <zzo38> alise: I don't know why?
00:04:02 <alise> Hmm, seems the -Wl,-Ttext,0
00:05:21 <zzo38> Yap will not render a page with unknown specials.
00:06:52 <zzo38> (Which is OK, since I will write a DVI driver for this purpose, so you won't need other ones.)
00:07:33 <zzo38> One problem I still have is how I should implement text that is stretched only horizontally, and not vertically, in TeX and DVI.
00:09:23 <alise> cpressey: how long the red dot you just got will last
00:09:44 <alise> the red dot stops the electric fences (what everyone thinks they are; I however belong to the "lava that keeps its shape" school of thought) from killing you
00:12:42 <cpressey> Well, Eightebed 1.0 has been released. http://catseye.tc/projects/eightebed/
00:13:52 <cpressey> Meaning, I get to think about something else for a while.
00:15:19 <cpressey> Gregor: It occurs to me that you may care about the above announcement!
00:16:11 <alise> cpressey: But you DEFINED IT WRONG!
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00:16:42 <alise> "There are no functions in Eightebed." XD
00:17:04 <alise> (I know, it's not a complexity problem.)
00:17:06 <cpressey> alise: Functions would change nothing... I explain that.
00:17:11 <alise> It's just amusing.
00:17:23 <cpressey> I suppose it is somewhat that.
00:17:33 <alise> consists only of the expression ifvalid x
00:17:41 <alise> WHOO BOY TIME FOR EIGHTEBED 1.1
00:18:30 <cpressey> Oh drat. I just found a tiny bug in the implementation too (in the -t option) so I will probably upload a bugfix. But, uh. Not today.
00:19:18 <Gregor> Bahahahahah @ "runtime support"
00:19:36 <alise> cpressey: Legal Issues is my favourite section
00:19:38 <Gregor> We implement this without a GC by stuffing most of a GC into the free function, thereby making it just as slow as a GC'd language with none of the advantages!
00:20:17 <Gregor> And when are you allowed to free? Only in an if valid block?
00:20:19 <alise> Aww, cpressey/Gregor is such a fun antagonistic relationship with obvious closeted underlying homosexuality.
00:20:24 <alise> Uh, I said nothing.
00:20:32 <cpressey> You strange, strange people with your caring about "slow" and your "advantages".
00:21:19 <cpressey> Gregor: You can only dereference in the "safe start" of an if valid block, i.e. before you make any assignments. You can free anytime, but if it's already free, nothing happens./
00:21:41 <cpressey> Could have made free follow the same rules as dereferencing. Didn't.
00:21:48 <Gregor> cpressey: And if you have an alias that's in an if-valid block?
00:22:24 <cpressey> Gregor: I don't follow, but if I do, the answer is: you need another if valid.
00:23:24 <Gregor> var ptr to int a; var ptr to int b; ... a = b = malloc int; if valid a { free(b); /* exception thrown? What? */ }
00:23:49 <cpressey> The block is freed and both a and b are invalidated.
00:24:04 <Gregor> But you're in an "if valid a" block.
00:24:25 <cpressey> Hm, good point. That could be a hole requiring redefinition of what a "safe start" is.
00:24:33 <cpressey> Up to the first assignment *or free*.
00:25:29 <Gregor> So yes, although you have managed to fit my requirements, I am wildly underwhelmed :P
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00:27:29 <alise> Gregor: "You win! But, whatever ;;("
00:27:39 <olsner> overwhelmingly underwhelmed?
00:28:05 <Gregor> alise: Just my inner homosexual tendencies towards cpressey preventing me from being too antagonistic, right? X-P
00:28:31 <alise> You don't want to seem like you care too much! :'(
00:29:29 <cpressey> Of course. The next time a dispute like this comes up, it will instead be settled by match of Greco-Roman wrestling.
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00:30:37 <cpressey> Anyway. I realize how little it proves. But it was fun to do.
00:31:00 <cpressey> And, unfortunately I must be off now. Evening, all.
00:31:09 <olsner> oh, were you discussing the memory-safe language again?
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00:31:48 <alise> although it's broken :P
00:32:09 <Sgeo> What language?
00:32:55 <Sgeo> Really annoying thing about Factor: There are no tutorials for a lot of stuff. The object-oriented stuff seems awesome, but it may be inaccessible to many due to having to dig through reference stuff
00:32:59 <Sgeo> Someone should write a tutorial on it
00:33:28 <alise> the reference stuff has tutorials
00:33:50 <Sgeo> alise, um, well, the class stuff
00:34:03 <alise> Sgeo: seriously, go to the reference; go up the directory to the topic (it has breadcrumbs)
00:34:08 <alise> there will be a link to documentation
00:34:42 <Sgeo> I thought tuples were the things with slots
00:34:47 <Sgeo> >>someslot someslot>>
00:35:08 <alise> there are no classes
00:35:30 <alise> but there's tuple and union classes
00:35:34 <alise> and tuples are what you are thinking of
00:35:53 <olsner> heh," If complications persist, another, less contentious name (such as "Microsoft Windows 7") may need to be chosen for this language."
00:50:03 <Sgeo> alise, linky? Doesn't seem to be in wiki
00:50:10 <Sgeo> And Google's useless
00:50:12 <zzo38> I am looking at the Kitsilano oscillator. It says it is sensitive to your hands?
00:50:17 <alise> Sgeo: See very recent messagse.
00:50:32 <alise> <Sgeo> Wait, cpressey is the Cat's Eye guy?
00:50:58 <Sgeo> alise, ty for not making me look through logs
00:52:29 <Sgeo> And I head straight for the esoteric programming category instead of seeing the news
00:53:15 <zzo38> alise: Yes that is what it says, but after adding one resistor it worked
00:53:25 <zzo38> http://catseye.tc/projects/kitsilano/kitsilano.html
00:53:44 <alise> Sgeo: the discussion in the logs is quite important though
00:54:29 <zzo38> Now, how well will it work, if you put a speaker instead of LED, and make all capacitors and resistors vary?
00:55:20 <zzo38> There is a circuit at the top that only works with old-style headphones. Is it possible to make a circuit that only works with red LEDs? (And if you put a green LED it won't work?)
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01:01:06 <Sgeo> Why would you spend any money on that?
01:01:15 * Sgeo decides that Gregor-CP is made out of money
01:02:09 <alise> Multiple Sclerosis eRotica
01:02:58 <Gregor-CP> Plus, I bought this off a friend for half its already low price :
01:03:17 <Sgeo> Make the next Microsoft Allegiance!
01:03:54 <Gregor-CP> It runs Android, albeit on a hilariously slow processor.
01:05:14 <olsner> however slow it is, I doubt it's hilarious... it's probably not even funny
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01:06:25 <Sgeo> alise, um, that game
01:06:34 <alise> Sgeo: IS HORRIBLE AAARGH IM ON STAGE 32 OISJFOIDFGSOFIG
01:06:48 <alise> Sgeo: what about it
01:06:51 <Sgeo> I'm stuck on the first part of level 1
01:07:03 <Sgeo> Are you sure the construction version is the best place to start?
01:07:08 <Sgeo> I want to avoid the fatal electric stuff
01:07:13 <Sgeo> But can't jump high enough
01:07:32 <alise> The construction version sucks
01:07:35 <alise> http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/
01:07:41 <alise> (This mirror is much faster)
01:08:57 <Sgeo> Should I bother Google Translating?
01:09:19 <Sgeo> Oh, what's the construction version?
01:09:21 <Sgeo> This level is not it
01:09:40 <alise> http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/
01:10:17 <Sgeo> But what was that contstruction version thing all about?
01:11:47 <alise> I think it lets you make your own levels
01:12:18 <Sgeo> Oh wait, let me make a guess
01:12:36 <Sgeo> Guess is correct :D
01:12:59 <Sgeo> And armed with that knowledge, I go to attempt the construction version again
01:13:25 <alise> It only has one level
01:13:28 <alise> Play the proper one
01:15:29 <Sgeo> Stage 5 was fun
01:16:46 <Sgeo> I screwed myself over on stage 6
01:16:53 <Sgeo> (With multiple upside-down dots
01:21:57 * Sgeo likes how sections of levels can be timed
01:23:20 <alise> I HATE LEVEL 32 SO MUCH
01:24:15 * Sgeo ran out of time grr
01:27:22 * Sgeo growls at level 10
01:27:27 <Sgeo> I know exactly how to solve it
01:28:10 <Sgeo> With 1 second left, I got it!
01:29:42 * Sgeo can't figure out level 12
01:29:51 <Sgeo> THe jump is just a LITTLE too big
01:32:50 <Sgeo> Stage 14 was fun
01:35:08 <Sgeo> stage 16 requires some intellect
01:38:31 <Gregor-CP> Chinese iPad ripoff: still workin'!
01:40:15 <pikhq> Gregor-CP: Awesome.
01:41:37 <pikhq> Y'know, now that I actually have to drive regularly, I have developed *quite* an appreciation for classical radio stations.
01:41:51 <Gregor> ORLY? Do you have a not-terrible one?
01:42:13 <pikhq> I *think* it's not-terrible. It *certainly* sucks less than all other radio stations in the area!
01:42:16 <Gregor> The Portland one is great, the Purdue one is OK. Neither of them have any great ability to stick to themes, they just sort of wander aimlessly over all music.
01:42:51 <Sgeo> Classical music has themes?
01:42:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: Very much so.
01:43:17 <zzo38> CBC sometimes plays classical music. They play other music too sometimes, and also news, and other things.
01:43:21 <zzo38> I also like classical music
01:43:21 * Gregor disappears for fifteen minutes.
01:43:46 <pikhq> Gregor: The one here (Colorado Springs) pretty much goes "Okay, we're just going to go with $theme for the next little bit."
01:44:45 <alise> FUCKING FUCKING FUCKING PIECE OF
01:45:05 <pikhq> And it's nice & non-profit.
01:49:42 <pikhq> Gregor: Just FYI: I'm presuming it's a damned good thing I have yet to hear on there something I'm actually familiar with. :P
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01:57:30 <alise> STAGE 38 IS PURE PAIN
01:59:06 <zzo38> I have one idea, that you could make processor instruction set with no direct jump command, only a indirect jump command where the value of a register is the address of the next address
01:59:33 <ais523> zzo38: quite a few esolangs work like that
02:01:13 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, although what I mean is something like this: if 02AA is the destination address and 02 is the instruction and FF is the instruction pointer register: 02FF02AA
02:02:00 <ais523> that's how an indirect jump is done on PICs (you assign to the program counter, which is memory-mapped), but it has a direct jump instruction too
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02:23:15 * Sgeo has troubles with stage 18
02:31:04 <alise> 42 is oidsjfodisjgoitjhnog
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03:16:31 <alise> Sgeo: : postpone r> dup , >r ;
03:16:33 <alise> i think this is right
03:16:41 <alise> works in jonesforth at least
03:17:13 <alise> no, it isn't, of course
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04:05:57 <alise> "A+B - in programming contests, classic problem, which is given so contestants can gain familiarity with online judging system being used.
04:05:58 <alise> A+B is one of few problems on contests, which traditionally lacks fabula."
04:06:08 <alise> i guess traditionally lacks score or whatever
04:06:36 <pikhq> I'd be quite worried if it were worth points.
04:07:53 * Sgeo growls at Math being under "Arts & Sciences" at his school
04:07:53 <alise> Sgeo: this is an interesting look at forth philosophy, btw: http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/httpd-en.html
04:07:56 <alise> if not utterly robust
04:08:04 <alise> mathematics is sort of a science
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04:11:40 <pikhq> alise: A New Kind of Science, if you will.
04:12:04 * pikhq leaves to avoid lynching
04:12:16 * Sgeo doesn't get it
04:12:35 <pikhq> Or: The Source of All Ego.
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04:24:03 <Gregor> lol @ "The Source of All Ego"
04:48:52 <alise> oerjan: cat compiler /does/ do type checking; evidence: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2319#comment-34783
04:48:57 <alise> he mentions things producing type errors
04:50:00 <Sgeo> Found a flame war regarding concatenative languages from 2005
04:50:11 <Sgeo> Apparently, stack effects weren't automatically checked back then
04:50:26 <alise> It's a new thing, with the optimising compiler.
04:53:06 <Sgeo> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/900
04:53:47 <alise> pronunciation is a bit too close to cunt for comfort :)
04:57:22 <alise> fizzie: whoever: I discovered how colorForth does interpreted code.
04:57:27 <alise> It's just a different, non-green colour.
04:57:33 <alise> So there's no real stop-defining delimiter thing.
04:57:35 <alise> I think fizzie asked.
04:57:38 <alise> Or was it cpressey?
05:07:31 <alise> Sgeo: : fact 1- if dup fact 1+ * else 1+ then ;
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05:08:11 <alise> if you have a colorForth-style-; and an if that doesn't drop like the i21:
05:08:12 <alise> : fact 1- if fact 1+ * ; then 1+ ;
05:08:48 <Sgeo> That doesn't look like Factor
05:09:31 <alise> it's Forth, of a sort
05:09:43 <alise> the latter would work on the i21 and nothing else :-)
05:09:54 <alise> http://www.ultratechnology.com/1xforth.htm is a very good read btw
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06:58:48 <zzo38> Please read this Article III: http://www.fftw.org/y2k.html
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13:17:33 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Terminal_Event_Management_Policy
13:24:56 <fizzie> I like the level 1 warning template.
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15:17:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: because ghci executes in a do block
15:18:03 <alise> same reason you have to proceed functions with "let"
15:18:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: ??
15:18:53 <alise> what has forall got to do with it?
15:19:05 <alise> (all function arrows A->B are really just "forall (_:A), B" but you know that)
15:19:18 <fizzie> BRÖDROST sounds somehow heavy-metallish. (Also I'm reminded of a nice absurdist comic, but it's very Finnish-only, so the point might be lost.)
15:20:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: you didn't know that?
15:20:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: cleverly.
15:20:42 <alise> fizzie: It means "toaster".
15:21:04 <fizzie> alise: I know, but it *ought* to mean church-burning or something.
15:21:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: an implicit parameter is filled in when its value is obvious from the types of the others, or something approximating that anyway
15:21:33 <alise> you can use an implicit parameter on the argument specifying a type or component of a type of another argument, usually
15:21:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: well, in declarations you can do {x:...} to make it implicit
15:21:53 <alise> normally it just sort of tries to make everything it can implicit, yes
15:22:02 <alise> Set Implicit Arguments functionOrDataType [arg arg arg].
15:22:15 <alise> ({x:...} rather than (x:...))
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15:54:20 <Vorpal> alise, what about brödrost?
15:54:52 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, it seems completely non-sequitur...
15:55:51 <Vorpal> alise, or did you ask me for a translation? In that case it means "toaster" (literal translation: bread toaster)
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15:56:58 <Vorpal> brod is not a Swedish word afaik
16:01:05 <cpressey> `swedish Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers
16:01:07 <HackEgo> Meeghty Murpheen' Pooer Rungers
16:01:28 <EgoBot> Meeghty Murpheen' Pooer Rungers
16:11:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: He already said it means toaster, so I doubt it was about translation.
16:11:56 <fizzie> (Don't have any clue what it *was* about.)
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16:26:30 <Phantom_Brodrost> I seriously want to murder whoever pulled the plug on Geocities.
16:29:51 <Phantom_Brodrost> I would murder cpressey for playing hopscotch with Cat's Eye, but he's too lovable.
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16:38:32 <cpressey> Oh, I have a theory. While terminals display block letters, files contain cursive. I say this because it's always "print" to put stuff on the screen and "write" to put stuff in a file.
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17:28:16 <alise> <Phantom_Brodrost> I would murder cpressey for playing hopscotch with Cat's Eye, but he's too lovable.
17:28:19 <alise> we actually have a template for your site
17:28:34 <alise> because it moves so much
17:29:04 <alise> Phantom_Brodrost: try s/g/r/ in the url, btw
17:29:45 <alise> yes, but iirc there were a bunch of broken links to the old site on the wiki
17:29:53 <alise> so we just replaced every catseye link with a template
17:29:55 <alise> and set it to catseye.tc
17:30:08 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Template:Catseye
17:30:14 <alise> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Catseye&action=edit
17:31:56 <alise> cpressey: have you seen PicoLisp? it's an interesting very-small, very-fast Lisp dialect interpreter
17:32:00 <alise> http://picolisp.com/5000/-2.html
17:32:20 <alise> some interesting choices, like 'a -> (quote . a), '(a b) -> (quote a b)
17:32:22 <alise> (explained in http://picolisp.com/5000/-2-3.html)
17:32:45 <alise> they base more or less everything on the cell
17:32:55 <alise> which is basically a cons with a few predefined car/cdr types
17:33:13 <alise> cell := ((int | symbol | cell), (int | symbol | cell))
17:33:24 <alise> the 32-bit one is written in C, 64-bit in asm
17:33:38 <alise> (except it seems to be some assembler written in PicoLisp; it appears to have if/then/else
17:33:50 <alise> interesting representation of NIL: http://picolisp.com/5000/-2-M.html
17:33:54 <alise> "This structure has great advantages. Any proper list (ending with 'NIL') becomes sort of "infinite", allowing to take the CDR as often as possible and still obtain 'NIL' again and again.
17:33:54 <alise> Therefore, a function doesn't need to check whether it actually received an argument or not. It can simply take the next argument with CDR from the argument list, and doesn't see any difference between '(foo NIL)' and '(foo)'. This makes interpretation both simpler and faster."
17:33:59 <alise> they make it both a symbol and a cons
17:35:01 <cpressey> i wanted to do that with... something
17:35:06 <alise> it gets linked a bit (PicoLisp)
17:35:17 <alise> but yeah, the language itself is interesting! reading the wiki is fun
17:36:05 <alise> cpressey: they have no lambda
17:36:30 <alise> I think this probably means they use dynamic scope, but I don't care, it's fun
17:36:39 <alise> "Why do you use dynamic variable binding?"
17:36:43 <alise> http://software-lab.de/doc/faq.html#dynamic
17:37:44 <alise> "You mean the funarg problem, or problems that arise when a variable might be bound to itself? For that reason we have a convention in PicoLisp to use transient symbols (instead of internal symbols) ..."
17:37:51 <alise> well, it's certainly interesting
17:42:09 <cpressey> Quylthylg has an extra argument to car and cdr which specifies what to return if you try to use them on a nil. Passing nil as that argument would be similar to that behaviour.
17:42:16 <cpressey> Well, would be that behaviour, actually.
17:43:02 <cpressey> But yes, PicoLisp looks quite interesting in its way.
17:43:09 <alise> heh, they have no strings, they just use transient symbols
17:43:16 <alise> Because PicoLisp has something better: Transient symbols. They look and behave like strings in any respect, but are nevertheless true symbols, with a value cell and a property list.
17:43:16 <alise> This leads to interesting opportunities. The value cell, for example, can point to other data that represent the string's the translation. This is used extensively for localization. When a program calls
17:43:16 <alise> (prinl "Good morning!")
17:43:16 <alise> then changing the value of the symbol "Good morning!" to its translation will change the program's output at runtime.
17:43:40 <alise> [[Transient symbols are also quite memory-conservative. As they are stored in normal heap cells, no additional overhead for memory management is induced. The cell holds the symbol's value in its CDR, and the tail in its CAR. If the string is not longer than 7 bytes, it fits (on the 64-bit version) completely into the tail, and a single cell suffices. Up to 15 bytes take up two cells, 23 bytes three etc., so that long strings are not very efficient (needing
17:43:40 <alise> twice the memory on the avarage), but this disadvantage is made up by simplicity and uniformity. And lots of extremely long strings are not the common case, as they are split up anyway during processing, and stored as plain byte sequences in external files and databases.]]
17:43:51 <alise> <alise> then changing the value of the symbol "Good morning!" to its translation will change the program's output at runtime. ;; this is just the greatest, most insane thing i've heard today
17:44:23 <alise> [[In an interactive environment (console), transient symbols should appear as an underlined sequence of characters. Where this is not possible (e.g. for representation in files), or inconvenient (while editing), double quotes '"' are used instead of underlining.]] ;; huh
17:46:06 <Vorpal> alise, PicoLisp? Hm? What makes it stand out from other LISPs?
17:46:21 <alise> Vorpal: *Lisps; and read everything I've said (plus the wiki).
17:46:42 <alise> Well, that is not my problem.
17:50:53 <alise> cpressey: Their symbols appear to be constructed as '(value . name)/
17:51:06 <alise> Well, with some property list stuff on the side, I guess.
17:52:21 <alise> [[For the third rule, however, things get a bit more involved. First - as a special case - if the CAR of the list is a number, the whole list is returned as it is:]] That is a bit gross though.
17:52:48 <alise> "When a number is used as a function, it is simply taken as a pointer to executable code that will be called with the list of (unevaluated) arguments as its single parameter. It is up to that code to evaluate the arguments, or not. Some functions do not evaluate their arguments (e.g. quote) or evaluate only some of their arguments (e.g. setq)."
17:53:05 <alise> It's like Forth! Except LISP!
17:53:15 <alise> (That was shouting Lisp, not miscapitalising it.)
17:53:38 <alise> Inspecting the VAL of *, however, gives
17:53:38 <alise> : * # Get the VAL of the symbol '*'
17:53:41 <alise> That's actually quite cool.
17:54:23 <cpressey> Now you are shouting for Val, but she's not here!
17:55:36 <alise> That was a quote :P
17:55:59 <alise> Besides, as a typographical matter, Lisp function names may be capitalised (when you can't distinguish them in some other way, e.g. monospaced text).
17:56:02 <cpressey> And mine was a joke. I unfortunately don't have the time to read about and play with PicoLisp either.
17:56:12 <alise> Which leads to fun things like saying CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION.
17:56:20 <alise> CALL WITH IT, DAMMIT!!
17:56:48 <alise> Cool, the REPL actually matches parens and does the "foo" -> underline{foo} thing as you type.
17:57:02 <alise> : sdgkopegjser09jt
17:58:43 <alise> * -- List expected
17:58:58 <alise> I guess they only typecheck when they really have to :)
18:01:12 <alise> cpressey: Do you know anything about the performance of x86 instructions?
18:02:32 <fizzie> I don't know much about that, but what little I know leads me to suggest that you can't say anything (or at least not much) about "x86 instructions" in a general sense, without talking about a single specific processor model.
18:02:35 <Vorpal> alise, I can help a bit
18:03:43 <fizzie> Gone are the days you could cycle-count anything, anyway. It's all about what sort of units happen to be free for scheduling, and memory-access times are pretty much random.
18:04:00 <Vorpal> alise, AMD and Intel both have tables over number of cycles per instructions in their modern architectures. As downloadable PDFs. However that is of course not the whole story, there is cache, wb/wc/uc, TLB misses and so on
18:04:08 <alise> Well, my question is: are the push-and-popping stack instructions faster than Just Doing It Yourself?
18:04:19 <Vorpal> alise, the AMD docs indicate which ones are done in microcode iirc
18:04:27 <Vorpal> and also how it stalls stuff
18:04:43 <Vorpal> not sure if intel docs do
18:04:50 <Vorpal> alise, that depends on which CPU
18:05:08 <alise> Vorpal: They could be slower? Or merely equal?
18:05:10 <Vorpal> alise, on many CPUs just setting the stack pointer at the start of a function and then using mov is faster
18:05:19 <Vorpal> many modern ones that is
18:05:35 <Vorpal> alise, due to instruction dependencies iirc
18:05:44 <fizzie> Push and pop at least save in code size, and it would be a bit surprising if they were much slower than the equivalent manual "decrement and store/load and increment" pair.
18:05:58 <alise> Vorpal: well, I'd be setting the stack pointer to something manifestly not the usual stack in this case
18:06:11 <Vorpal> alise, hm? How do you mean
18:06:13 <alise> hmm, are there variants of push and pop which also take the stack? i suppose not
18:06:32 <alise> I guess saving the stack pointer, setting the stack pointer, doing push (or pop), then restoring the stack pointer is slower than the manual way, though.
18:06:38 <alise> (Just one operation.)
18:06:46 <alise> So it may be a good idea to use it for the main stack but manually handle the return stack.
18:07:37 <Vorpal> alise, anyway for the usual "common C function not using alloca or VLA" it is on modern cpus generally faster to increment %rsp by whatever amount you need, then use mov to put things on the stack relative that pointer
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18:07:53 <Vorpal> alise, well, this could apply to other languages too
18:08:07 <Vorpal> alise, any compiled ones where you know the size of your stack frame at entry
18:08:12 <alise> Vorpal: basically, this thing is going to execute a ludicrous amounts of pushes and pops per second.
18:08:34 <Vorpal> alise, hm... You could probably optimise the code?
18:09:01 <alise> Forth is a stack language. Its whole operation is based on pushing and popping.
18:09:02 <Vorpal> alise, an optimising forth compiler. Yes I know this is not the usual way to do it
18:09:09 <alise> I am merely asking whether these are faster than using mov manually.
18:09:16 <alise> I don't need implementation tips...
18:09:16 <Vorpal> but you could make one that tries to convert it to using registers and such
18:09:30 <alise> an optimising Forth compiler goes against the spirit of Forth, anyway
18:09:35 <alise> your code shouldn't be wasting time in the first place
18:09:36 <Vorpal> alise, anyway: several pushes after each other will all update %rsp/%esp.
18:09:46 <Vorpal> alise, that means they can't be executed out of order
18:10:00 <alise> well, it won't be several pushes immediately
18:10:03 <Vorpal> and mixed series of push/pop
18:10:13 <alise> it'll be push, push, ..., pop, push, push, ...
18:10:21 <alise> ... being e.g. a jmp or two
18:10:25 <alise> a jmp and incrementing something
18:10:44 <Vorpal> alise, better to, if possible, update %rsp once when entering the function, then use mov using %rsp for indirection
18:11:52 <alise> the mass migration of Digg users to reddit started a few days before September began in the incorrect (post-09/1993) calendar
18:11:55 <alise> coincidence? I think not.
18:12:07 <Vorpal> alise, this applies to modern CPUs. Not sure where exactly it becomes more efficient. But it push/pop would most likely be better on a i486. And update-once-and-mov would definitely be better on P4 and later.
18:12:14 <Vorpal> in between... I don't know
18:12:35 <alise> Vorpal: this is between mov, inc, mov, inc and push
18:13:04 <alise> Vorpal: ok, what about "save stack pointer, set the stack pointer to something else, (1 push or pop), restore the stack pointer"?
18:13:09 <Vorpal> alise, hm, why could you not merge does movs into an add, then do relative addressing
18:13:09 <fizzie> If you're going to do exactly the pushing operation ("decrement a register, move a word to where it points"), my guess is it'll be better to push than sub 4 + mov, if you can keep the thing in rsp; but possibly not if it's in some other register. (Though I'm not completely certain about that: it's possible register-renaming trickery could make xchg+push+xchg pretty fast.)
18:13:11 <alise> that's gotta be slower than a mov-based incantation right?
18:13:30 <Vorpal> alise, like >+>>++> would be optimised in any decent BF compiler
18:13:43 <alise> Vorpal: as i said, the fight is between precisely those options i listed
18:13:44 <Vorpal> and then using an offset to the current position as needed
18:14:06 <Vorpal> alise, then I suspect push/pop is somewhat less bad.
18:14:12 <alise> fizzie: Specifically, the swap-the-stack-for-one-instruction thing would be when running r> and >r, which pop or push one value from/to the return stack from/to the main stack.
18:14:12 <Vorpal> alise, but try both and profile!
18:14:33 <alise> fizzie: So it would be "pop, xchg, push, xchg" or "xchg, pop, xchg, push"
18:15:48 <fizzie> Well, that sounds somewhat reasonable.
18:16:06 <Vorpal> alise, what exactly is wrong with combining several updates to the stack pointer and then use offsets relative where it points?
18:16:28 <alise> fizzie: That is, vs "pop, inc, mov" or "mov, dec, push".
18:16:52 <Vorpal> alise, remember on x86_64 you may put temp data in a 128 byte region beyond the stack pointer. Any signal handler or such won't overwrite that. Specified in the ABI
18:17:03 <Vorpal> useful for leaf functions to avoid updating stack pointer at all
18:18:11 <fizzie> alise: "push" is not "inc, mov", it grows the other direction. But anyway. Really, you *could* consider benchmarking this stuff; after you get it working, it's a small snippet to change and run your benchmarks.
18:18:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, but he refused to do proper measurements above: "<alise> Vorpal: no."
18:18:54 <alise> Vorpal: That was just to upset you, though.
18:19:10 <Vorpal> alise, no, it was just stupidity on your side. I'm sure of it.
18:19:13 <alise> fizzie: Er, right, you know what I mean with the alternative.
18:19:34 <alise> Vorpal: You /do/ realise that I've only been actually listening and talking to fizzie this whole time?
18:20:04 <Vorpal> alise, strange you highlighted me several times then.
18:20:21 <Vorpal> alise, but sure. Be a jerk if that is what you like
18:20:23 <alise> Vorpal: Yes; to annoy you.
18:21:08 <alise> Indeed. Perhaps you'll ignore me now?
18:21:43 <Vorpal> alise, no. That would be what you want.
18:22:31 <Vorpal> alise, however I will remember to never try to be helpful when you ask a question again.
18:23:40 <fizzie> As far as code size is concerned, it's a very slight win. "pop, xchg, push, xchg" is 2+1+2+1=6 bytes (or 1+1+1+1=4 if your other stack is in rax, but that doesn't sound feasible) while "pop, sub 4, mov [rx]" is 1+3+3=7 bytes, or 1+3+4=8 if your other stack is in rbp.
18:24:15 <alise> fizzie: Yeah; I think I will go with the xchg.
18:24:19 <alise> Especially since there's operations like rswap.
18:24:41 <alise> Actually, you can swap the top two values of a stack without popping them.
18:24:44 <alise> So that will not actually be any longer.
18:25:13 <fizzie> If your other stack is in rsi and you keep the direction flag set properly, you can use lodsq as a single-byte-instruction pop (but push will still be longer).
18:25:45 <alise> I think I'll stick to regular stacks.
18:26:15 <alise> xchging the top two values of a stack will be faster than popping and pushing twice, I assume :P
18:26:54 <fizzie> I'm not sure about that, because xchg against memory will do LOCK automatically even if you don't put the LOCK prefix in.
18:27:32 <fizzie> But of course you don't need to pop, pop, push, push since the stack pointer won't move, just mov things around, possibly with some offsets.
18:28:00 <fizzie> (Oh, and the lodsq fake-"pop" can only pop into rax.)
18:28:37 <alise> True, it's just moving.
18:28:52 <fizzie> (On something like ARM, all your stack pointers would be general-purpose registers and you'd have pre/post-increment/decrement addressing with any register you want.)
18:30:01 <fizzie> (And on a more austere RISC, you'd just have load/store and separate add/sub, and no nonsense about one-register-only pushing.)
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18:36:14 <fizzie> Gads, x86 instructions are ridiculous. XLATB: does "mov al, [rbx+al]" (hypothetical, since you could normally only [rbx+rax], but anyway) -- "This instruction is often used to translate data from one format (such as ASCII) to another (such as EBCDIC)." Yeah, I do asm-optimized ascii-ebcdic translation all the time. (I wonder if gcc can generate xlat for "unsigned char x, i, *p; x = p[i];" sort of code.)
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18:40:09 <fizzie> Anyway, guesstimating performance with a speculative-execution register-renaming superscalar thing is probably something that makes any statemets very context-sensitive ("if you have A, B, C and D, option 1 will be faster; ..."). I couldn't find out late numbers, but apparently already the P4 had 128 general-purpose registers it could use for register-renaming, and my guess is that a reg-reg xchg would be done by that machinery.
18:41:52 <alise> Silly name for a Lisp: Lips
18:42:47 <fizzie> Lots of punny names possible for related paraphernalia, I guess.
18:44:22 <alise> Does anyone know if there are any well-written single-file bignum things?
18:44:26 <alise> GMP is just a bit too big for me to be happy
18:46:26 <fizzie> I have the worst bignum implementation ever. but it's single-file! (I got sidetracked on a C programming course "calculate character histogram" home exercise, and wrote one with a bignum lib and multibyte character support.)
18:47:22 <fizzie> I'm trying to find it, but you really don't want to use it. :p
18:47:32 <alise> fizzie: No, but I might want to modify it and use it.
18:47:41 <alise> Hmm, maybe I can store every number just as a pair of bignums and call it a rational.
18:47:52 <alise> (That is, a not-necessarily-reduced rational.)
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18:49:15 <fizzie> I'm not so sure you even want to use that as a base; it's pretty simple to make a integer bignum thing which uses an array of unsigned ints as the storage format.
18:49:30 <fizzie> I can't recall what the course code was, or what year I did it.
18:50:47 <fizzie> Someone's eaten my bignums.
18:51:17 <alise> fizzie: But exponentation and the like!
18:51:34 <alise> Is... impossible! Or,
18:51:48 <alise> Say, I wonder what algorithms people use to approximate sqrt() on rationals.
18:52:06 <fizzie> Yes, well, I doubt I have any non-trivial algorithms in the file, if I can find it. No FFT-based multiplications for me there.
18:52:23 <alise> Meh. Who needs bignums rihgt now?
18:52:40 <alise> Why do property lists exist?
18:53:17 <alise> Phantom_Brodrost: ...For sqrt()?
18:54:18 <alise> Phantom_Brodrost: I'm asking what algorithm people use to calculate approximate_sqrt : Q -> Q.
18:55:01 <Phantom_Brodrost> Well, ignoring complexes, approx_sqrt : N → Q on numerator and denominator...
18:55:23 <alise> And what of that algorithm?
18:56:45 <alise> That is my question! Sheesh.
18:56:53 <cpressey> alise, fizzie: re performance of x86 instructions: omg yes, with pipelines and prefetching and the cache hierarchy, you just kind of ... guess.
18:57:55 <alise> Let's see, a symbol is a name and a value.
18:57:58 <fizzie> Paul Zimmermann, “Karatsuba Square Root”, INRIA Research Report 3805, November 1999, http://hal.inria.fr/docs/00/07/28/54/PDF/RR-3805.pdf
18:58:07 <alise> I'm basically writing PicoLisp: The Ripoff here.
18:58:13 <fizzie> (It's yet another of those FFT-based algorithms.)
18:58:51 <fizzie> Or maybe not, actually.
18:59:25 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Anyway, guesstimating performance with a speculative-execution register-renaming superscalar thing is probably something that makes any statemets very context-sensitive ("if you have A, B, C and D, option 1 will be faster; ..."). I couldn't find out late numbers, but apparently already the P4 had 128 general-purpose registers it could use for register-renaming, and my guess is that a reg-reg xc
18:59:25 <Vorpal> hg would be done by that machinery. <-- Hm... And still the AMD64 instruction set doesn't expose nearly as many
18:59:28 <alise> Phantom_Brodrost: Yes.
18:59:29 <cpressey> The thing that gets me about optimizing generated machine code in the modern world is, really, how do you *know* your code is faster? A benchmark? Yeah, those're realistic. :/
18:59:29 <Phantom_Brodrost> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of_computing_square_roots
19:00:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I suspect having 64 out of 128 programmer visible GPR would be a way better trade-off than the small number that x86_64 has
19:00:51 <alise> Oho, that's clever. In PicoLisp, a symbol's address is actually one after its name.
19:01:01 <alise> (So **sym dereferences it.)
19:01:09 <alise> (Since the value comes after the name.)
19:03:10 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm yes... higher level optimisations are probably more useful in general for a compiler. Still there are some things you can do at that low level. And both AMD and Intel have optimisation guides aimed at compiler writers.
19:03:28 <fizzie> There's the very famous and very clever Quake "1/sqrt(x)" approximation, but that's decidedly floating-point: float invsqrt(float x) { float xh = 0.5f * x; int i = *(int*)&x; i = 0x5f3759d5 - (i >> 1); x = *(float*)&i; return x*(1.5f - xhalf*x*x); }
19:03:41 <fizzie> It's also a bit on the non-obvious side.
19:04:16 <alise> fizzie: Yes, I sort of don't want floating point.
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19:05:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think SSEn for some n>=2 has some instruction for inverse of square root
19:06:16 <Vorpal> that was mixing up Swedish name for the operation
19:07:44 <Vorpal> reciprocal is the English word, invers is used in Swedish.
19:07:53 <alise> inverse square root is also used in English
19:07:58 <alise> see, e.g. what fizzie just quoted
19:08:05 <fizzie> RSQRT[PS]S; reciprocal square root packed/scalar single-precision floating-point.
19:08:44 <fizzie> SSE dropped the trigonometrics, though; I wonder how they do sin(x) nowadays.
19:08:46 <Vorpal> alise, yes but inverse makes me think of f⁻¹
19:09:03 <alise> Then "inverse square root" would be stupid.
19:09:06 <alise> It being "square".
19:09:22 <alise> But that isn't what it is used to mean.
19:10:01 <Vorpal> alise, well "inverse function" for most other things mean that
19:10:24 <alise> I don't think anyone actually says "inverse f" for f^-1.
19:10:27 <alise> f's inverse, maybe.
19:10:27 <Vorpal> alise, so it is kind of ambiguous
19:10:37 <alise> does anybody say "inverse cos" :)
19:10:46 <Vorpal> alise, no you say arccos
19:10:52 <Vorpal> but only because it has a damn silly name
19:11:12 <fizzie> "inverse *of* square root" does sound a bit like ^2 though.
19:11:16 <alise> arccos sounds pretty hard to pronounce; I'd go with acos.
19:11:24 <alise> If you're expanding, might as well say "arc cosine".
19:11:30 <alise> fizzie: But not inverse square root.
19:11:45 <Vorpal> alise, arc expands to arcus or something like that iirc
19:11:59 <Vorpal> alise, so arcus cosine probably?
19:13:39 <fizzie> Finnish way to read arcsin and arccos out loud is as compound words, "arkussini" and "arkuskosini".
19:14:24 <alise> So we can store 4 bytes of a name per word on x86, 8 bytes on x86-64.
19:14:24 <fizzie> And the Finnish name for reciprocal is again very elegant and beatiful: "käänteisluku". (Lit. "inverse number", compare "käänteisfunktio" -- "inverse function" for the other sort of inverse.)
19:14:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, similar for Swedish
19:14:32 <alise> I wonder how PicoLisp handles longer names.
19:14:43 <Vorpal> alise, what is a word on x86-64 then?
19:14:46 <alise> fizzie: Are you being sarcastic? Because Finnish /is/ awesome.
19:14:56 <Vorpal> alise, AMD and Intel disagrees
19:15:07 <alise> Yes, well, they're stupid and should die.
19:15:29 <Vorpal> alise, great, then we would all run ARM, PPC or SPARC I guess
19:15:39 <alise> Sure, I would go for that.
19:16:09 <Vorpal> and I'm not sure Cell and similar makes such a good general purpose *desktop* CPU
19:16:09 <alise> Gah; is there a variation on Emacs' SERVER-START that doesn't start if there's already a server running?
19:16:16 <alise> A SERVER-IS-RUNNING-P, or the like.
19:16:19 <Vorpal> sure, awesome at the stuff it is meant for
19:16:24 <alise> Vorpal: PPC wouldn't be dead if AMD and Intel were dead.
19:16:38 <alise> Besides, nothing wrong with SPARC.
19:16:39 <Vorpal> alise, well, true, but it is a bit too late now
19:16:48 <Vorpal> alise, did I say there was something wrong with SPARC?
19:16:56 <alise> Just saying that we could use SPARC.
19:16:58 <Vorpal> the register window stuff is cool
19:17:08 <Vorpal> alise, ALPHA if it wasn't dead
19:17:10 <alise> There are open-source implementations, too.
19:17:18 <Vorpal> alise, yeah that is cool
19:17:32 <fizzie> ARM's Cortex-A9 does quad-core 2GHz thing; it sounds like it might even be reasonable amount of power in a desktoppy environment.
19:17:59 <alise> fizzie: Perhaps...
19:18:16 <alise> Apple's (not actually Apple's; I forget who designed it) A4 isn't too shabby either.
19:18:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, GHz isn't everything
19:18:33 <alise> That's 1 GHz and single-core, but still.
19:18:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, pipeline? out of order? super scalar? and so on...
19:18:48 <alise> Vorpal: Smarter code.
19:18:52 <Vorpal> and efficient ISA of course
19:19:03 <alise> Vorpal: ...is the programmer's job.
19:19:17 <alise> Besides, most CPU power goes unused these days.
19:19:46 <Vorpal> alise, but I mean, a 10 GHz bf CPU would probably be way less efficient than a 2 GHz x86-64 for almost everything
19:20:01 <alise> But way cooler, too.
19:20:16 <Vorpal> alise, well yes, but that isn't what most people buying a CPU wants
19:20:26 <alise> Are you absolutely sure about that?
19:20:37 <fizzie> It is superscalar, I don't know very much of the other details. ARM's specs page has a DMIPS ("Dhrystone MIPS") performance value, but I don't know how those compare to intels.
19:20:51 <Vorpal> alise, either that or they define cool definitely than we in this channel do
19:21:04 <Vorpal> s/definitely/differently/
19:21:15 <alise> fizzie: Let's just compare BogoMIPS!
19:21:28 <fizzie> Anyway, at 10000 DMIPS and 2 GHz, it consumes a whopping 1.9 watts of power.
19:21:59 <alise> ByteByteJump is so cool.
19:21:59 <alise> uint8_t mem[MEMSIZE];
19:22:00 <alise> uint32_t *pc = (uint32_t *)mem;
19:22:00 <alise> mem[pc[1]] = mem[pc[0]];
19:22:00 <alise> pc = (uint32_t *)(mem + pc[2]);
19:22:16 <alise> (Needs memory-mapped IO and a way to halt, but still, sweet.)
19:22:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is still way less than a P4. Probably way less than a core 2 duo too
19:22:23 <alise> fizzie: Just slap two of them together then.
19:22:57 <alise> Vorpal: Really? Are you sure?
19:23:02 <alise> Have you RUN Dhrystone on them?
19:23:06 <Vorpal> alise, no. It's a guesstimate
19:23:11 <Vorpal> alise, about those 1.9 W
19:23:17 <alise> Oh, the temperature.
19:23:24 <Vorpal> alise, err not temp. Power usage
19:23:25 <alise> About the wattage.
19:23:29 <alise> Yes, they're closer to 60-100W.
19:23:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: On the other hand, you can't use it to multitask as your sauna stove.
19:24:01 <alise> "Avoid using brk() and sbrk(): the malloc(3) memory allocation package
19:24:01 <alise> is the portable and comfortable way of allocating memory."
19:24:22 <fizzie> Core i7 Gulftown models have a TDP of 130W.
19:24:25 <Vorpal> alise, well. My thinkpad when both cores are fully loaded (with SSE heavy code) uses like 25-27 W iirc.
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19:24:29 <alise> fizzie: I meant the reasonable CPUs. :P
19:24:35 <Vorpal> alise, still quite a bit
19:24:51 <alise> fizzie: How much does one of those lovely ARMs cost?
19:24:53 <Vorpal> alise, though that includes stuff like monitor and memory and so on
19:24:58 <Vorpal> alise, not just the CPU
19:25:01 <alise> You could have 100 of them and use the same power. :)
19:25:05 <cpressey> alise: malloc is "comfortable".
19:25:06 <Vorpal> alise, when idle it is way less
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19:25:14 <alise> fizzie: Actually, isn't there some big ARM computer that consists of a fuckton of them?
19:25:22 <Vorpal> alise, on half-bright screen
19:25:37 <Vorpal> alise, still it of course includes more than just CPU,
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19:25:46 <alise> sbrk() doesn't work well when there's memory in the way, right?
19:25:51 <alise> i.e. it won't do realloc's move-shop stuff.
19:26:26 <cpressey> Phantom_Brodrost: first thing that came to mind today, honestly, was "octalthorpe"
19:26:45 <Vorpal> alise, sbrk is quite similar in many ways to adding/subtracting a value from the stack pointer. But for the heap
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19:27:07 <fizzie> Incidentally, let's check consumer power supplies; last I looked (some years ago) they were hovering in the one kW range, now... "SilverStone Strider ST1500 1500W"; well, 1.5 kW, then.
19:27:19 <Vorpal> alise, so it is useless for any memory management on it's own if you will ever free anything except the most recently allocated element
19:27:32 <alise> Vorpal: I'm maintaining my own heap.
19:27:53 <alise> Vorpal: modern OSes will do it in virtual memory, yeah, instead of allocating real memory for it?
19:28:01 <Vorpal> alise, just saying you need to do so with more than sbrk. Or you will get horrible memory fragmentation.
19:28:04 <alise> fizzie: there are 2 kW ones iirc.
19:28:11 <alise> fizzie: of course, you rarely need more than 600 W.
19:28:13 <Vorpal> alise, hm? well it is of course backed by virtual memory
19:28:17 <fizzie> Soon the gamer-class computers will start to come with three-phase electric power connectors.
19:28:33 <alise> Vorpal: I don't particularly want to write a compacting GC, either, so my options are pretty limited as far as freeing memory goes.
19:28:37 <alise> As in, "it probably won't happen".
19:28:45 <alise> So I'll just be relying on the OS to manage virtual memory well.
19:28:54 <Phantom_Brodrost> Soon the gamer-class computers are going to have the souls of 10 children in them for AI.
19:28:54 <Vorpal> alise, um. maybe back it by mmap then
19:29:10 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BytePusher this is awesome
19:29:17 <alise> Vorpal: yeah, I'm considering that too
19:29:28 <alise> Vorpal: although not in the way SBCL does since I want to work when overcommit is off
19:29:32 <cpressey> alise: You're writing a PicoLisp, right? You can take the marvelous GC advantage of having all your memory cells be the same size, then.
19:29:41 <alise> is there a way to increase the size of an mmapping?
19:29:53 <alise> cpressey: I'm writing Slip, which is like PicoLisp except MINE and BETTER.
19:29:54 <Vorpal> alise, it won't do anything if your heap looks like (@ = allocated, . = unallocated): @@@...@.@@.@@@@......@@........@.@...@@@....@@...@@
19:29:57 <cpressey> Unless there's some variable-length stuff you want to do, of course. I should have said "Lisp".
19:30:10 <alise> cpressey: Also, I'm not sure it will be.
19:30:19 <Vorpal> alise, which is what you will get if you only ever use sbrk and then never fill in the freed up holes
19:30:21 <alise> cpressey: Since what about symbols with names >4 or 8 bytes (depending on 32/64-bit)?
19:30:33 <alise> There needs to be a remmap.
19:30:46 <alise> cpressey: Where do the rest of their names go? I am trying to figure out how PicoLisp does this.
19:30:48 <Vorpal> alise, there is a mremap. Linux specific.
19:31:07 <alise> Phantom_Brodrost: Most likely just an interpreter.
19:31:11 <alise> "I am lazy and my CPU is fast."
19:31:12 <Vorpal> alise, while the OS won't actually allocate your pages until you try to access them, it won't automagically unallocate zeroed out pages.
19:31:21 <cpressey> alise: I dunno. Maybe they do the ol' BASIC thing where only the first 4 characters of the identifier count :)
19:31:24 <Vorpal> alise, for most apps the overhead of detecting that wouldn't be worth oit
19:31:26 <alise> I might just use a fixed-size heap.
19:31:32 <fizzie> The Scheme interpreter I wrote for our "let's do SICP one last time" special commemorative Scheme course has a copying, compacting (well, of course, since it's copying) GC, and that's "just" 550 lines of x86-64 asm. (It's also probably incredibly buggy, since I wrote it in the last night or two before the deadline.)
19:31:43 <Vorpal> alise, why not use libgc?
19:31:52 <Vorpal> alise, that is the lazy solution
19:32:02 <alise> fizzie: Copying GCs are so yeargh, though.
19:32:10 <alise> Vorpal: I'm maintaining my own heap; GCs are like a 30-line thing.
19:32:17 <alise> I owe it to my users not to use a conservative collector.
19:32:34 <fizzie> alise: It's a good choice when you have a deadline measured in hours and are writing manual assembly, though. :p
19:32:38 <alise> Phantom_Brodrost: What the hell could HE do?
19:32:54 <alise> Phantom_Brodrost: He can't.
19:32:58 <alise> Phantom_Brodrost: Name a project written by esr.
19:33:06 <alise> Yes, which ais523 has spent years cleaning up.
19:33:06 <Vorpal> alise, the way you described your GC so far sounds worse than a conservative gc though.
19:33:16 <cpressey> alise: If you use linked cells to hold long id's (bear with me) then you get fixed-sized cells and that makes GC easy. Need to allocate a new cell? Just take the next one off the free list. Free a cell? Add it to the free list. Free list empty? sbrk().
19:33:22 <fizzie> GC snippet of the day:
19:33:22 <alise> Vorpal: it will be good within the heap
19:33:23 <fizzie> .fail: ;; TODO: remove when failure is not an option
19:33:24 <alise> just not good for the OS
19:33:31 <alise> Failure is NOT AN OPTION
19:33:46 <alise> cpressey: I can't use linked cells, though, because the CDR already contains a pointer to a cell (the value of the pointer).
19:34:01 <alise> fizzie: UNREADABLE
19:34:03 <alise> HOW DOES THAT WORK
19:34:16 <Vorpal> alise, most programs will not free up resources in the same order they allocated them. So you need to try to reduce fragmentation in some way
19:34:20 <fizzie> Let's not go into the Intel syntax wars again.
19:34:29 <fizzie> It's just that one "mov", anyway.
19:34:39 <alise> fizzie: I was being sarcastic.
19:34:46 <Vorpal> alise, using a bunch of pools to keep the objects similar sized in a given area might work
19:35:00 <cpressey> Vorpal: Do you realize that with fixed-size cells, fragmentation is basically a non-problem?
19:35:02 <alise> I have a lot of memory.
19:35:07 <alise> And what cpressey said.
19:35:08 <Vorpal> alise, I think the freebsd malloc uses pools like that
19:35:13 <alise> Hopefully everything will be the same size.
19:35:14 <Vorpal> cpressey, ah, he has that?
19:35:18 <Vorpal> I must have missed that
19:35:28 <Vorpal> indeed that is like a single pool
19:36:01 <alise> cpressey: Still not sure how to do symbol names, though. Oh, I know.
19:36:26 <alise> ('HELL', ptr), ('OWOR', 'LD!\0\0')
19:36:36 <alise> i.e., you just keep looking ahead until you get a \0.
19:36:38 <Vorpal> alise, you still need some way to store allocation metadata. Like a freelist
19:36:52 <alise> Vorpal: Well, I'm GCing. So there will be a mark field.
19:37:15 <alise> I might even do the wonderful multithreaded mark-and-sweep I keep talking about.
19:37:18 <alise> No more GC delays!
19:37:38 <Vorpal> alise, just saying scanning for free on allocation would be rather slow
19:38:06 <Vorpal> maybe having a map of pages containing at least one free spot would work
19:38:07 <alise> Vorpal: Maybe I could use a bitmask.
19:38:23 <alise> 1101110 means that cells [0], [1], [3], [4] and [5] are available.
19:38:25 <Vorpal> that way you need to scan only a small chunk
19:38:29 <alise> (An array of integers, that is.)
19:38:42 <Vorpal> rather, keep a count of free cells for each page
19:38:47 <Vorpal> that makes updating it easier
19:38:51 <alise> Vorpal: I don't need to worry about pages this way.
19:39:11 <Vorpal> alise, well, you don't need your blocks to be page-sized. Just seemed a reasonable chunk size
19:39:27 <alise> Eh. Divide by however many bits are in a long, & ...0... it, where the 0 is at the position of the remainder.
19:39:35 <alise> Sounds complicated but really just one or two lines of code to update it.
19:39:50 <alise> And let's see, if we assume 32-bit we have 4 bytes in each.
19:39:51 <Vorpal> alise, anyway lets say each chunk start with a bitmask. And you have a global mask of full/non-full pages. Where each page is a bit
19:40:06 <cpressey> Vorpal: You can store the freelist inside the cells themselves. In a sense, it's just another Lisp list.
19:40:11 <alise> So for 4 megabytes, we can store a million cells.
19:40:15 <alise> 4 megabytes of metadata, that is.
19:40:16 <Vorpal> alise, then after allocating you just test if your bitmask for the page is all 1, and if so set the global table as it
19:40:20 <Vorpal> cpressey, that works too
19:40:21 <alise> A cell is a cons, or a symbol, or whatever.
19:40:33 <alise> cpressey: Ah, good idea.
19:40:47 <alise> So every N cells has a count of how many free cells there are in the next N cells?
19:40:56 <cpressey> You do need a mark bit somewhere, though, yes.
19:41:37 <cpressey> LSB of the pointer is traditionally a good choice, since cells are two bytes long. You probably know that much...
19:41:52 <Vorpal> why are cells 2 bytes only?
19:42:06 <alise> cpressey: LSB of which pointer?
19:42:13 <cpressey> I mean, at least 2 *addresses*.
19:42:28 <Vorpal> on x86-64 they would be... 16 bytes each?
19:43:31 <cpressey> alise: The tail pointer. If you're storing "improper" lists I can see how that might pose a problem.
19:43:32 <Vorpal> alise, I seem to remember some lisp(s) did some trick by being able to store lists so that the next element's car was in the previous cdr
19:43:39 <Vorpal> as a space optimisation
19:43:44 <fizzie> Ooh, haha: homework exercise 6 of that "course with the bignums in it": "Make a program that reads a file and encrypts/decrypts it into another file. You can invent the encryption algorithm by yourself. If you don't want, you can use this: [description of rot-N, where N is the key, and the description itself even manages to be wrong; it "encrypts" letters A..Z, but does modulo 25 instead of 26.]"
19:43:47 <Vorpal> setting some control bit to indicate this was being done
19:43:48 <alise> cpressey: Of course I am.
19:44:09 <alise> Vorpal: cdr coding
19:44:12 <cpressey> alise: Then you need to find some other place for it :)
19:44:22 <Vorpal> alise, going to do that?
19:44:28 <alise> Vorpal: it's a bitch
19:44:37 <Vorpal> alise, yes it messes up allocation
19:44:42 <cpressey> heh. I was just going to say, "cdr coding is a bitch!"
19:44:44 <alise> (cdr cdr-coded-list)
19:44:55 <alise> Unrolled linked lists are simpler and often higher-performance than CDR coding (no "tagged pointers"; typically less fragmentation). For short lists, CDR coding uses the least amount of space.
19:44:59 <Vorpal> alise, well messing up allocation is partly a side effect of messing up alignment
19:45:04 <cpressey> Maybe for serialization it's OK.
19:45:49 <Vorpal> cpressey, back when memory was a much more limited resource it probably made sense
19:46:07 <cpressey> Merf. I should probably implement a lisp at some point. I mean, in something other than another lisp.
19:46:38 <cpressey> Uhhhh not what I was thinking.
19:46:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, it would be cool however
19:47:18 <cpressey> Are there any Befunge interpreters out there that implement GC of the playfield? (implement it, not rely on their implementation langauge for it)
19:47:27 <alise> cpressey is like Rupert Holmes, unable to escape from his song with Piña Coladas.
19:47:31 <cpressey> 'Cos FBBI sure as hell doesn't.
19:47:47 <Vorpal> cpressey, how can you GC the funge-space?
19:47:50 <cpressey> alise: Or that other guy, and "Werewolves of London".
19:48:00 <Vorpal> cpressey, you can't possibly know if some funge code references it
19:48:03 <alise> cpressey: Or Chris Pressey, and Befunge!
19:48:36 <Vorpal> cpressey, or do you mean freeing up memory used by spaces?
19:48:38 <cpressey> Vorpal: Uh. If a range of space is empty -- free the memory for it?
19:48:56 <alise> cpressey: Do you think that a-bunch-of-adjacent-cells representation for symbol names is a good idea?
19:49:16 <Vorpal> cpressey, cfunge will free the cell in the hash array backed area if it is set to space
19:49:20 <cpressey> alise: Not for GC-friendliness, no. not so much.
19:49:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, it does that by returning it to a pool
19:49:34 <Vorpal> rather than calling free()
19:49:54 <cpressey> Vorpal: does it ever call free() on them?
19:49:55 <alise> I'm reading PicoLisp's source and then making sure to forget the exact code so I don't violate the GPL.
19:50:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, well it allocates the hash cells from some internal pools. It just returns those to it
19:50:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, and no it doesn't free up pools if an entire pool would ever become empty
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19:50:43 <cpressey> Vorpal: So if I have a Befunge program which p's a # into (0,0), then erases it and p's # into (0,1), etc, etc, will cfunge eventually run out of memory? From what you say it sounds like the answer is "yes".
19:50:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, still, many programs fit neatly inside the static backed area around 0,0
19:51:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, because it will put the freed up hash entry into the free list
19:51:19 <Vorpal> cpressey, and it will use that before allocating new pools :P
19:51:24 <alise> typedef enum {NO,YES} bool;
19:51:42 <alise> typedef struct cell { // PicoLisp primary data type
19:51:50 <alise> So it really is just two bytes.
19:51:51 <alise> How does that work?
19:52:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: But if you make a Befunge program that uses four gigabytes of space for a while, then erases almost everything, you won't return the uselessly allocated gigabytes to the system, right?
19:52:32 <alise> *(word*)&cdr(p) &= ~1;
19:53:09 <Vorpal> typedef union memory_block {
19:53:09 <Vorpal> struct s_fspace_hash_entry data;
19:53:09 <Vorpal> union memory_block *next_free;
19:53:13 <alise> cpressey: I am not sure that makes sense.
19:53:20 <alise> cpressey: Although, wait.
19:53:26 <alise> cpressey: It does if you just use 31-bit integers.
19:53:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, chunks of those are used. And a free list
19:53:49 <alise> typedef struct heap {
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19:53:49 <alise> cell cells[CELLS];
19:53:49 <alise> struct heap *next;
19:53:50 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: But if you make a Befunge program that uses four gigabytes of space for a while, then erases almost everything, you won't return the uselessly allocated gigabytes to the system, right? <-- no, but I have yet to see such a program in practise
19:54:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, in practise here means "not specifically made as a benchmark"
19:54:18 <alise> There are no Befunge programs in practice.
19:54:23 <alise> Apart from fungot.
19:54:24 <fungot> alise: those who did see it a workman, a servant, and the moon is above and the clouds of the sky and fnord itself in the birth of my grandmother and fnord uncle might be sheer fancy on my part proposed, for his eyes were irresistibly drawn. and then my fancy reverted to the locale as i reflected that the excitant folklore was undoubtedly more universal in the past.
19:54:24 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
19:54:28 <alise> Apart from fungot.
19:54:28 <fungot> alise: sometimes heard today, fnord by extensive scientific interests and aided by large numbers of fishing boats from gloucester, made a thorough and really significant digest. average people
19:55:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
19:55:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: fungot in some sense; it would be "nice" if when an evil IRC user makes a space-wasting Underload program, it'd return the wasted space to the system after the program's been finished. (Not that it's a problem in practice, since there's a size limit for the Underload stack.)
19:55:39 <fungot> fizzie: the lovecraft library wishes to extend its gratitude to eulogio garca recalde for transcribing this text. he had to fnord had to get me in a thin envelope of fnord metal. he had counted about thirty when a sound reached him very fnord and
19:55:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah and probably some user will do it again
19:56:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, and then it will already have it allocated
19:56:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway it is tricky, since the used cells might be spread out
19:56:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, in fact, I would say it is rather likely
19:57:32 <fizzie> Yes, though if you allocate in pages, you could opportunistically free pages that contain only free'd pointers, if ever such occur. (It'd be a bit annoying to go through the free-list removing those, though.)
19:57:50 <fizzie> 6824k VSZ, 5328k resident; it's not a very memory-intensive process there.
19:57:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, and checking for that condition would incur some overhead
19:58:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, which for the majority of the cases would be non-useful
19:58:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, let me check how much I allocate at once
19:58:44 <alise> For something even smaller, download miniPicoLisp.tgz. It is a minimal version, without support for databases, UTF-8, bignums, IPC, networking and other system-dependent functions. A kind of "pure" PicoLisp (not "pure Lisp"!). It supports the full PicoLisp language, but runs faster, and uses even less memory space. It should also not be restricted to Unix. In addition, it compiles and runs also on 64-bit systems.
19:59:01 <fizzie> 7952k virtual, 6408k resident now.
19:59:26 <alise> #define WORD ((int)sizeof(long))
19:59:26 <alise> #define BITS (8*WORD)
19:59:33 <fizzie> (I can't recall my underload stack limits.)
19:59:49 <fizzie> Ooh, not using CHAR_BIT, how dreary!
19:59:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, more than a page at a time I think
20:00:20 <fizzie> A conceptual "page", anyway; a biggish blob.
20:00:58 <fizzie> (I wasn't expecting you to sysconf(_SC_PAGESIZE) the allocation size.)
20:02:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think each hash entry is 4*8 bytes or something like that (x,y,value,next-in-same-bucket)
20:02:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, possibly a bit more
20:02:29 <alise> #define val(x) ((x)->car) ;; huh
20:02:32 <Vorpal> each chunck is 4096 hash entries
20:02:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, so yeah more than a page
20:02:56 <alise> #define EVAL(x) (isNum(x)? x : isSym(x)? val(x) : evList(x))
20:03:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is of course assuming a 64-bit funge
20:03:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, x,y,value would be smaller otherwise
20:04:15 <Vorpal> while next-in-same-bucket would depend on pointer size
20:04:35 <Vorpal> alise, where is that code from?
20:04:43 <alise> Vorpal: miniPicoLisp
20:04:54 <Vorpal> alise, that's an absurd name
20:05:03 <alise> it's a smaller version of PicoLisp. :P
20:05:13 <Vorpal> alise, yeah but pico already implies it is small...
20:05:23 <Vorpal> alise, it should be FemtoLisp or something
20:06:28 <fizzie> Speaking of which, CHAR_BIT is indeed 8 in the TI C64xx. I guess they fake byte-addressing, then, since the hardware is definitely unable to do it. (Though it admittedly does use byte-indexed pointers, so that for all pointer values the LSB is 0.)
20:06:47 <fizzie> Maybe there was in fact some special unaligned-read op in there.
20:10:37 <fizzie> Oh, yes, LDNW/LDB and such. (Whose idea it was to make the instruction set reference PDF not include the actual instructions in the PDF table-of-contents metadata? There's just chapter 3.11, "Instruction Descriptions", page 87, and the next thing in the TOC is chapter 4, "Pipeline", page 509.)
20:13:24 <fizzie> (There's also lots of hyperlinks, but no single instruction index. There's six separate "list of instructions executing in the [foo] functional unit" lists (with links to descriptions), but between each list there's ten pages of opcode encoding tables. It's like it's designed to be as difficult as possible to look up opcodes by name.)
20:14:24 <fizzie> (I'm wondering if TI's expensive and sucky -- well, it *was* sucky last I saw it -- IDE has some sort of instruction lookup feature, and therefore they've left it out of these freely downloadable PDFs, so that it's not competing with the IDE docs.)
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22:34:23 <zzo38> Maybe I should allow Enhanced CWEB to ignore a shebang line at the top of a file, so that it can be used on Hackiki
22:36:53 <zzo38> Do you think it is good idea?
22:37:31 <zzo38> You should make a Hackiki on the esolang, such as /hackiki/ directory instead of /wiki/ to tell differerence
22:37:50 <zzo38> And also allow Hackiki files and MediaWiki files to be able to read each-other (but not write)
22:38:25 <zzo38> And put a field in the MediaWiki account to associate them with a OpenID, to be used with Hackiki.
22:38:38 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: I was thinking about the same idea in the past.
22:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well... it would need UI capabilities, to keep to BANCStar's spirit.
22:41:40 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Yes I think you might be correct, and you would do it in the strange way that BANCStar does it.
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22:45:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, BANCStar-oid. <-- it had oids?
22:46:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, do you mean oids as in SNMP?
22:46:49 <zzo38> So just guess and see if the example program is sensible in the way that you guessed.
22:46:56 <Phantom_Hoover_> No, I mean as in something similar enough that you could confuse them without close inspection.
22:47:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, why oids though? There are a lot of other stuff you could think of putting in a bankstar context
22:47:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, so why oids
22:47:59 <zzo38> If it is done in a way that the example program is still a sensible program (even if it does not do the same thing as before), then it can be confuse them even with close inspection.
22:48:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, "-oid"? Prefix I use to indicate close similarity, per the English prefix?
22:48:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, to me oid = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_identifier
22:49:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, thus the confusion
22:49:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, that pun was so terrible
22:49:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, btw what does the c stand for? care?
22:50:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well SNMP is to me the very epitome of excessive software engineering!
22:50:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, should be ois :/
22:50:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, yeah, I don't like that
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22:51:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, the whole acronym is phonetic that way, which is rather neat.
22:51:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, OIDs are used in X.509 certs too
22:51:54 <Vorpal> again too much software engineering
22:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> So anyway, http://reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/station/2266/tarpit/bancstar.html is the sum total of all accessible information on BANCStar.
22:56:58 <zzo38> I made a backup of that HTML page.
22:59:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> If there was any consistency in the instructions, that would help...
23:01:19 <zzo38> 3001 is a block conditional, so maybe 3001,,, is the end of the block
23:02:34 <zzo38> Ther are only 3 other numbers?
23:03:10 <zzo38> Maybe there is the number of the constant/variable, the number indicating the comparison type, and the value to compare it with
23:04:01 * Phantom_Hoover_ keeps viewing this from too much of an assembly perspective
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23:59:19 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/BCVI
00:00:13 <zzo38> After I write more, I can test it to see if the example programs will run
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01:18:47 <alise> Gaah, Dot Action 2 is so impossible.
01:21:58 <Sgeo> Does it not save your place?
01:22:06 <Sgeo> I'm stuck with level 1 again
01:23:39 <pikhq> *sigh* McCain proposing a bill that would allow imprisonment without trial.
01:24:04 <pikhq> Apparently he liked his time as a prisoner of war so much that he feels everyone should live it.
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01:26:17 <alise> Sgeo: You need to write down the save code.
01:26:24 <alise> From the level selection screen; the NNN-NNN.
01:26:30 <pikhq> "(3) INAPPLICABILITY OF CERTAIN STATEMENT AND RIGHTS- A individual who is suspected of being an unprivileged enemy belligerent shall not, during interrogation under this subsection, be provided the statement required by Miranda v. Arizona (384 U.S. 436 (1966)) or otherwise be informed of any rights that the individual may or may not have to counsel or to remain silent consistent with Miranda v. Arizona."
01:26:32 <alise> (Second menu item to enter one.)
01:26:37 <pikhq> I... Don't think that actually works.
01:26:58 <alise> Sgeo: I have a code for 55.
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01:27:04 <alise> But you're not getting iiit~
01:28:12 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, the opinion of the court in Miranda v. Arizona was that absolutely no evidence from an interrogation is admissible in any court, civil or otherwise, unless the "Miranda rights" are told to them.
01:29:42 <pikhq> Soooo... Yeah. Doesn't work unless they want to produce a giant pile of BS that the judge will laugh out of court.
01:30:18 <pikhq> "An individual, including a citizen of the United States, determined to be an unprivileged enemy belligerent under section 3(c)(2) in a manner which satisfies Article 5 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War may be detained without criminal charges and without trial for the duration of hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners in which the individual has engaged, or which the individual has
01:30:38 <alise> Whoa, Google own reCAPTCHA.
01:30:44 <alise> Since about a year ago.
01:30:44 <pikhq> And *that* just violates almost the entire US Bill of Rights in a single long sentence.
01:30:49 <pikhq> Impressive, but dang.
01:30:51 <alise> http://www.google.com/recaptcha
01:31:51 <pikhq> "9) UNPRIVILEGED ENEMY BELLIGERENT- The term `unprivileged enemy belligerent' means an individual (other than a privileged belligerent) who--
01:31:54 <pikhq> (A) has engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners;
01:31:57 <pikhq> (B) has purposely and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners; or
01:32:00 <pikhq> (C) was a part of al Qaeda at the time of capture."
01:32:11 <pikhq> Sooo. I hereby declare Congress to be code for al Qaeda.
01:32:23 <pikhq> And shall detain them in the Capitol.
01:42:39 <Sgeo> Dang it, I keep missing a dot in level 20
01:42:44 <pikhq> DoJ is suing Arpaio.
01:45:22 * Sgeo lols at stage 22
01:49:17 <Sgeo> WTF at Stage 23
01:52:15 * Sgeo wtfs at stage 24
01:52:44 <alise> Sgeo: 48 is the hardest so far
01:52:51 <alise> which appears to be impossible in the time given :)
01:52:52 <Sgeo> How about the one with 1 time?!
01:53:33 <Sgeo> I either fry on the upper yellow, or run out of time
01:57:23 <alise> 55 I actually have no idea what you have to do, past getting the first green block.
02:00:38 <alise> Sgeo: what are you on now?
02:00:46 <Sgeo> Taking a break from it
02:00:50 <Sgeo> Around 27 I think
02:01:07 <alise> Did you note your save code>
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02:34:40 <Sgeo> alise, cheat codes: http://jayisgames.com/archives/2007/04/dot_action_2.php#walkthrough
02:34:50 <alise> Sgeo: Fuck that shit.
02:35:05 <Sgeo> Well, I'm skipping level 27
02:37:12 <alise> Sgeo: Ha. You'll find much harder ones and end up skipping the entire game.
02:37:44 <alise> 27 is utterly trivial
02:37:48 <alise> if you can't do it you have no hope
02:38:01 <alise> just go in the middle
02:38:35 <alise> Why are you saying tons of punctuation?
02:39:37 <Sgeo> did 28 already
02:41:34 <Sgeo> Dangit, missed one
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03:38:49 <pikhq> Why can't I run bsnes at full speed any more? D:
03:40:38 <pikhq> Apparently the answer is: X went "fuck you".
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03:58:10 <zzo38> I made the BytePusher VM program, and it works.
03:58:39 <zzo38> But I have to wait 14 minutes to try the second example program.
03:59:18 * Sgeo has a Factor project to do!
04:03:55 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/logo.png
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04:10:49 <zzo38> Audio is not implemented yet.
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04:14:03 <zzo38> I have just testsed the second program too, and the second program also works.
04:21:59 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/
04:22:19 <zzo38> (I have included both example programs in the .ZIP archive so that you do not have to use RapidShare)
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10:00:57 <cheater> it's in german, but the code vs times comparisons speak for themselves
10:00:59 <cheater> http://www.drweb.de/magazin/schneller-php-schneller/
10:07:08 <fizzie> Also, Google translate is somewhat hilarious.
10:07:11 <fizzie> "D. grinding for, foreach, while (performance gain 15-30%)
10:07:11 <fizzie> Es ist falsch, pauschal zu behaupten, while ist schneller als zum Bespiel foreach. It is wrong to say a flat rate, while faster than the examples foreach. Oder umgekehrt. Or vice versa. Es kommt immer auf die Art des Objekts, die der Befehl zu schleifen hat. It all depends on the nature of the object to the grind, the command has."
10:07:21 <fizzie> Gah, it pastes both versions.
10:07:42 <fizzie> "It is wrong to say a flat rate, while faster than the examples foreach. Or vice versa. It all depends on the nature of the object to the grind, the command has."
10:07:47 <fizzie> Anyway, lovely verb choice there.
10:07:55 <fizzie> GRIND that LOOP, PEON.
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13:01:54 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: poe's tales, of which he had cultivated with such singular results. it was, they averred, as though wounded by some stray shot. the beast turned its head in my direction and the eyes fell open, disclosing the repulsively rotten fangs of the degenerate joe slater. i shivered as i wondered why i did not fnord killing four and finally succeeding in the liberation of the monster. those victims who could recall the e
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13:09:26 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: He's a degenerate, with repulsively rotten fangs.
13:10:12 <fizzie> "His name, as given on the records, was Joe Slater, or Slaader, and his appearance was that of the typical denizen of the Catskill Mountain region; one of those strange, repellent scions of a primitive Colonial peasant stock whose isolation for nearly three centuries in the hilly fastnesses of a little-traveled countryside has caused them to sink to a kind of barbaric degeneracy, rather than advance with their more fortunately placed brethren of the thickly set
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13:12:34 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
13:13:47 <Phantom_Hoover> He appears to have been an early-20th century footballer.
13:14:33 <fizzie> "The man himself was pitiably inferior in mentality and language alike; but his glowing, titanic visions, though described in a barbarous disjointed jargon, were assuredly things which only a superior or even exceptional brain could conceive."
13:18:55 <fizzie> fungot: Can you tell us more about what happened to Joe?
13:18:56 <fungot> fizzie: a cowed and cringing satellite in the fnord fnord firm to the house in darkness but for the glare of the fnord
13:19:13 <fizzie> I'm not sure if that's good or bad.
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13:20:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> fungot, Wikipedia says he was killed in WWI. Is this true?
13:20:16 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: it was a gentle daylight rain that awaked me front my stupor in the brush-grown railway cut, and among them was lore of a golden valley that led to old world wonders. by night the outer harbour was cleared, and late passengers watched the stars twinkling above an unpolluted ocean.
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13:21:11 <fizzie> Actually, he was killed because he was "unfit to bear the active intellect of cosmic entity. His gross body could not undergo the needed adjustments between ethereal life and planet life."
13:21:41 <fizzie> Cosmic entities should have more sense than picking footballers.
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13:23:28 <Phantom_Hoover_> Obviously they thought that understanding the offside rule was a sign of high mental calibre.
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13:38:00 <ais523> do you mean the football/soccer rule, or the indentation rule?
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13:59:08 <ais523> it's a common nickname AFAIK for the rule Haskell uses
13:59:21 <ais523> where you can line up a loop (or other control structure) body with the first line
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14:32:43 <Vorpal> ais523, that is strange... The haskell rule is actually quite easy to understand.
14:33:04 <ais523> it's more complicated than the rules for pretty much any other lang...
14:33:22 <Vorpal> while I never understood the football rule. Though, I can't say I spent much time trying to understand the football rule
14:33:38 <Vorpal> football just doesn't interest me very much
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15:13:05 <pikhq> ais523: It's more complex than the rules for any other language, but it's more *natural* than most other such rules.
15:13:29 <ais523> I rather like it, but I see how people could be confused
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18:39:39 <Vorpal> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/us2010atbj.php#details says "Depth16.1 km (10.0 miles) (poorly constrained)" and "Location Uncertaintyhorizontal +/- 16.5 km (10.3 miles); depth +/- 64.6 km (40.1 miles)". So that earth quake could be located far about the ground then? XD
18:39:56 <Vorpal> poorly constrained indeed XD
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19:06:15 <ais523> wow, someone bought out the rights to Duke Nukem Forever and started developing it again
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19:06:56 <pikhq> Never bought out the rights, actually.
19:07:21 <pikhq> Take Two has always *had* the rights. They just had contracted to have it developed.
19:07:39 <pikhq> And they decided to switch contractors.
19:08:21 <ais523> what may shock Vorpal even more is that I finally got a small fragment of a Feather interp to work pretty much as expected
19:08:31 <ais523> although it's just leading to more questions about what I should do next
19:08:52 <ais523> I think one thing that's necessary is to restrict the program to using only atoms that are in the original program
19:09:00 <ais523> (not really a problem as you can just go back in time and add them there...)
19:09:13 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover_: well, there isn't any Feather code yet
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19:09:27 <ais523> just creating Feather fakeobjects via metagaming, and checking that they interact correctly
19:09:29 <pikhq> 3D Realms, who previously had been developing it, last released a new game in '97.
19:09:52 <pikhq> *Ninety fucking seven*.
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19:20:37 <ais523> ;(set! abc (box_atom "abc"))
19:20:39 <ais523> ;(eval (((((abc "==") (box_atom "def")) "#") '(display "equal")) '((abc "<<=") (box_atom "def"))))
19:20:41 <ais523> commented out because it's just a paste
19:20:46 <ais523> (and yes, that's Scheme not Feather)
19:22:51 <nooga> so feather will resemble scheme, on which abstraction level?
19:23:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> ais523, how do you get around the "turtles all the way down" problem?
19:23:52 <ais523> the issue is not the number of turtles, but inconsistent counts
19:24:17 <ais523> it's a pain to try to match up old turtles with new one
19:24:29 <ais523> Feather is the only lang I know where you have to think about backwards compatibility in the very first interp...
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19:32:48 <Sgeo> ais523, a language with specs but no implementation for a long time, and when someone gets around to it, they find that it _can't quite_ meet the specs
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19:46:31 <zzo38> How can I make the audio in BytePusher VM syncrhonized? In SDL the audio has to run in a separate thread. So, how do I synchronize it?
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19:55:46 <fizzie> We saw that the last time.
19:57:29 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Because that is not enough explanation, of what codes needed, and stuff like that
19:58:44 <fizzie> I'm not sure what exactly is being wanted here, but of course you could just make another buffer, into which the synchronous audio-output functions write; wrap a mutex around it; if the buffer's full, have the synchronous output function block with SDL_CondWait; and then the audio thread just reads from that buffer and SDL_CondSignal's in case the synchronous audio output function's waiting there.
20:00:34 <fizzie> It has a bit unpredictable latency there, since there's another buffer inside SDL. And you'd need to call the synchronous audio-output function often enough so that the buffer never happens to be empty, but I guess that's a given.
20:02:12 <fizzie> Who wrote this BytePusher/ByteByteJump thing anyway? Someone not on-channel, apparently?
20:03:30 <fizzie> I wanted to comment on the µ-law encoding thing, which I think mostly makes sense only for speech.
20:06:34 <zzo38> You think it is only for speech?
20:06:48 <zzo38> You can post the comment on the Talk page on the wiki
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20:08:04 <zzo38> Wikipedia does say it is for speech.
20:12:38 <zzo38> Maybe I will wait until they write a program that uses audio, in case they decide to change it back?
20:13:33 <fizzie> Waiting for a audio-outputting program might be a good idea anyway, so you can test your thing. (Though the µ-law lookup table is easy to add/remove, I guess.)
20:15:12 <zzo38> Yes, it is easy to add/remove
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20:22:20 <Vorpal> <ais523> what may shock Vorpal even more is that I finally got a small fragment of a Feather interp to work pretty much as expected <-- wow... \o/
20:22:38 <ais523> no, this does not mean the lang itself is working
20:22:45 <ais523> just that the very first stage is not completely impossible
20:24:05 <Vorpal> ais523, still a first step
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20:27:43 <nooga> ais523: i also thought a lot about language like Feather
20:27:55 <nooga> and all that comes to me is some kind of Lisp on steroids
20:33:43 <fizzie> I made a random test of a 30-second snippet of music, in both 8-bit unsigned linear PCM and 8-bit µ-law, and the difference is pretty small, so I guess it doesn't really hurt that much to have it there.
20:35:22 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test-linear.wav and http://zem.fi/~fis/test-ulaw.wav if someone with more discerning ears wants to comment on the µ-law + music use case.
20:35:54 <fizzie> (Technically I guess it's copyrighted audio, but, well, a 30-second lowish-quality snippet...)
20:38:28 <pikhq> fizzie: That'd be a better comparison if it were 44100 Hz.
20:39:23 <fizzie> pikhq: I guess, but the BytePusher has a sampling rate of 15360 Hz.
20:39:57 <fizzie> A fixed 60 Hz framerate, and 256 samples per frame, if you mean "why that exact number".
20:40:36 <fizzie> If it's a more general sort of why, "dunno" then.
20:41:50 <pikhq> That's not even sufficiently lossless to encode music well.
20:42:10 <pikhq> That's not even enough to encode the *base frequencies* of a giant swath of the musical scale.
20:43:37 <fizzie> High-fidelity music may not have been high up on the design criteria list.
20:43:39 <pikhq> Hrm. Actually, looking at a table of notes vs. Hz. You're good up until A8.
20:43:42 <nooga> how to write programs for bytePusher?
20:43:42 <nooga> is there some compiler?
20:43:47 <pikhq> (which is ridiculously high)
20:43:48 <zzo38> pikhq: It is not enough? Even for square wave or sine wave or other simple things, if you stay in the middle of octave?
20:44:12 <zzo38> nooga: No there isn't, but I am writing one
20:44:20 <zzo38> It is more like assembler, though
20:45:26 <pikhq> It'll omit a good chunk of audible frequencies, buuut these are less essential ones, apparently.
20:46:33 <zzo38> But standard music should be enough for simple waveforms, 12-TET, 12-JI, Bohlen-Pierce, and more, which ones are likely to work?
20:47:24 <nooga> zzo38: because i can't imagine how to do arithmetics on oisc
20:47:27 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, it'd only start being an issue if you start putting real instruments through there.
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20:47:57 <pikhq> Ones which have *some* sound above 8 kHz.
20:48:01 <zzo38> nooga: I think the suggestion was doing it using tables.....
20:48:40 <zzo38> And it is OK, since my assembler ("PUSHEM") supports adding tables and calculating values to enter into the tables, including loading them from binary files (for pictures)
20:48:58 <zzo38> You still have to explicitly tell it to add tables, though.
20:49:23 <fizzie> "However, DSD advocates and equipment manufacturers continue to assert an improvement in sound quality above PCM 24-bit 176.4 kHz." -- yeah, right, I'm sure there's a lot of audible fine detail out there somewhere over 80 kHz.
20:50:56 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Ones which have *some* sound above 8 kHz. <-- doesn't most have that?
20:52:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, as far as I remember the overtones for many (all?) instruments in theory goes on forever, getting fainter and fainter the further up they are.
20:52:35 <fizzie> This might depend on your definition of "some"; whether you're being unnecessarily literal with it or not.
20:53:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, did the second line clarify what I meant?
20:54:17 <pikhq> fizzie: Human hearing goes up to about 20 kHz... :)
20:54:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, well yes there is that limit too
20:54:39 <Vorpal> which makes most of those infinite overtones irrelevant
20:55:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: As well as the whole "approaching 0 dB" thing.
20:55:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed, which I mentioned there
20:55:36 <pikhq> Anyways. CD audio is nearly perfect in terms of audio reproduction.\
20:55:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about interference between stuff about 20 kHz and stuff below it?
20:55:52 <Vorpal> probably not a significant issue though
20:56:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: Will get recorded as part of the CD audio.
20:56:12 <pikhq> Keep in mind, you're recording the *net* sound wave there.
20:56:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, that is only stereo.
20:56:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, remember you can hear the difference between sounds in more than just left/right direction due to various factors which I forgot the details about
20:57:07 <pikhq> If you make it 32-bit, 44.1 kHz audio, and *record binaurally*, you will have *literally perfect audio reproduction*.
20:57:16 <nooga> zzo38: excruciatingly slow
20:57:20 <pikhq> (assuming you've got hardware to actually play that back)
20:57:21 <zzo38> Will everyone write only twelve tone equal temperament music on BytePusher, or will some people use other tunings?
20:57:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, that would be a PITA due to varying between different persons though
20:57:39 <Vorpal> the head form and such I mean
20:57:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: Binaural recording with a generic head is "good enough", though.
20:57:50 <fizzie> zzo38: Or will anyone at all write music on BytePusher?
20:57:57 <zzo38> fizzie: I don't know.
20:58:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, not *perfect* though ;P
20:58:27 <zzo38> Many music programs support only twelve tone equal temperament, which is good enough for most music, but not everything.
20:58:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: As good as can be achieved for mass distribution, though.
20:59:06 <fizzie> Music-wise BytePusher seems a bit "boring", in the sense that it's just sampled audio playback, not e.g. some funky digital/analog hybrid synth-chip with interesting distortions (I'm obviously referring to the SID here).
20:59:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, I seem to remember my electrical piano supports other tunings than equal temperament.
20:59:23 <Vorpal> doubt midi supports it though
20:59:35 <pikhq> Also: 32-bit audio there is kinda overkill.
21:00:14 <pikhq> 32-bit PCM is sufficient for recording the full dynamic range possible in air.
21:00:18 <pikhq> This includes shock waves.
21:00:28 <zzo38> Vorpal: My digital piano also supports other tunings, but only a few, and not Bohlen-Pierce or 19-tone tunings or anything else like that.
21:00:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about other media than air though?
21:00:48 <pikhq> It varies from medium to medium...
21:01:14 <fizzie> Double-precision floating-point audio; freedom from dynamic-range problems.
21:01:33 <Vorpal> zzo38, right. And I can't find the manual for my piano atm. So not sure about what it supports exactly
21:01:34 <pikhq> fizzie: But now you've got imperfect reproduction.
21:01:48 <Vorpal> what about quadruple precision then?
21:01:55 <pikhq> fizzie: 32-bit 44.1 kHz can perfectly represent all sounds that humans can hear in air.
21:01:59 <zzo38> But I have figured out a way to write Bohlen-Pierce music in .IT format, although it doesn't work the best way, since you have to store a sample for each pitch! http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/music2/bohlen-pierce.it
21:02:19 <pikhq> Not just "close enough that the differences are irrelevant". Literally perfect.
21:02:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about something in between two values though?
21:02:44 <fizzie> pikhq: There's 52 bits of precision in a double, it can't be any more imperfect than a 32-bit integer. And if you go overkill, you should really go overkill well.
21:02:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, I mean, lets say we have 1000 and 1001 as two values, what about representing a sound in between those?
21:02:57 <zzo38> Do you think this bohlen-pierce.it music works? Obviously it won't work for anything more complicated than what I have done there
21:03:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, of course this is probably pointlessly detailed
21:03:23 <fizzie> It's not "literally perfect" until you hit the Heisenberg limits. :p
21:03:33 <pikhq> fizzie: Which you do. And go far, far beyond.
21:03:45 <fizzie> I find that pretty suspicious.
21:03:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm Heisenberg limits?
21:03:59 <fizzie> h is a very small number, after all.
21:04:11 <Vorpal> is this about quantum mechanics suddenly?
21:04:15 <zzo38> O, you mean Planck units?
21:04:17 <Vorpal> or am I confusing a name
21:04:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Quantum-mechanics uncertainty about the momentum of the air molecules, you see.
21:05:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, that isn't enough. Get a compensator for it. Like in star trek. Used to explain how it is possible to beam people iirc
21:05:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: Sample a wave with a sampling rate twice its frequency. Apply the Whittaker-Shannon interpolation formula. You have the *precise* original waveform.
21:06:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, I find having anything precise in a real world measurement pretty suspicious...
21:06:41 <Vorpal> but I'm no expert on this area
21:06:52 <pikhq> Vorpal: It is mathematically precise. In terms of the real-world, you are limited by the quality of your measuring equipment.
21:07:05 <fizzie> pikhq: That would assume continuous-value samples there. Otherwise you'd get quantization noise anyway. Unless the physics of a pressure wave give some limits here, but I'd like to see references for that.
21:08:16 <pikhq> fizzie: Adding finite ranges of samples limits the amplitude...
21:08:51 <pikhq> Hrm. Lemme find in precisely the manner it does so.
21:09:01 <fizzie> I didn't quite understand that last bit.
21:09:16 <Vorpal> anyway why are you limiting yourself to air?
21:09:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because we don't generally care about other media
21:10:08 <fizzie> I mean, a finite range of real numbers has just as many real numbers than R, it doesn't help to give a maximum pressure there. You should somehow limit the number of possible pressure levels to < 2^32.
21:11:11 <fizzie> The whole notion of "pressure" gets a bit tricky if you start to consider individual molecules, though. Hmh.
21:12:57 <pikhq> Argh. Quantization does add a small amount of error.
21:12:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, why not record the speed and time of each individual molecule hitting your sound recording hardware?
21:13:25 <Vorpal> possibly also location on the device in question
21:14:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Why not, indeed! You should sell that sort of stuff to hifists. (It doesn't even have to actually do the impossibilities, they'll pay bazillion dollars for it anyway if you do the marketing right.)
21:14:18 <pikhq> Though one could *quite* feasibly put it up to bitrates that would make a 1-bit difference be below Heisenberg limits, if you set the maximum value as the maximum possible volume in your prefered medium.
21:14:22 <cpressey> Behold, a new use for Google's compute base.
21:15:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I realise it is of course infeasible if not impossible :P
21:16:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, and you claim 32-bit is that for air?
21:16:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm should make it go to 12 as well while I'm at it.
21:18:27 <Vorpal> and to answer the inevitable question "go to 12 for what", it doesn't matter. Just pick any suitable setting knob
21:18:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Actually, I'm going to make the actual, proper calculation, now that I've thought about it some.
21:19:24 * pikhq figures out the conversion rate between a Pascal and a planck mass per (planck length * planck time^2)
21:19:42 <pikhq> (that is, M/(L*T^2)
21:19:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, I guess insanely large or insanely small
21:20:14 <Vorpal> though it could be something reasonable-sized. Who knows
21:20:38 <pikhq> 4.63309 × 10113 Pa per M/(L*T^2)
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21:22:48 <pikhq> Sooo... A shock wave is 2.18698536 × 10^-129 planck pressures, and that did not help me at all.
21:23:14 <Vorpal> is planck pressures then a VERY VERY large unit?
21:23:35 <pikhq> It's 4.63309 * 10^133 pascals.
21:24:08 -!- tombom__ has joined.
21:24:11 * pikhq looks for better units
21:25:47 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:25:58 <pikhq> Fuck it. I'm calling 32 bits good enough arbitrarily.
21:26:09 <pikhq> Screw quantisation error. If it matters, you are a freak.
21:26:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, you aren't persistent enough
21:27:22 <Vorpal> if 2.18698536 × 10^-129 is max
21:27:39 <Vorpal> what is the heisenberg limit?
21:27:47 <Vorpal> then just take that range
21:28:24 <Vorpal> then take the range 0 to 2.18698536 × 10^-129 and divide in 2^32, if less than heisenberg limit, it is enough
21:28:54 <fizzie> The problem is the Heisenberg limit for pressure; I certainly am not a physicist enough to start guesstimating it.
21:29:15 <Vorpal> right, but is my basic idea sound?
21:29:30 <cpressey> < fizzie> The whole notion of "pressure" gets a bit tricky if you start to consider individual molecules, though. Hmh.
21:29:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, also this is pressure, but what defines frequency hm? I'm not audio engineer enough to know this
21:29:57 <cpressey> Might be better to model it directly as the electric and strong forces that are causing it, at that point.
21:29:59 <Vorpal> but certainly you can have differently loud sound at the same frequency?
21:30:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, a bit tricky to record that, no?
21:30:45 <fizzie> You just need enough precision bits to handle all possible pressure levels; and then sample often enough to catch all physically possible frequencies.
21:31:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah, so what sampling frequency do we need?
21:31:29 <fizzie> I don't know about that, but probably not something horribly huge.
21:32:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, what sort of playback device do you need to play back below 1 Hz I wonder
21:32:37 <cpressey> Vorpal: I can't see how it would be much different from recoring the pressure on a single air molecule.
21:32:40 <Vorpal> I know my headphones claim to go down to 5 Hz
21:32:46 <Vorpal> which is quite absurdly extreme
21:34:43 <fizzie> If you're willing to limit yourself to humans, you can start to derive limits from the ear; those limits are lot more reasonable-sized, but they're a bit "soft" limits.
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21:42:06 <zzo38> What are algorithms for simulation of Guqin scales?
21:43:19 <pikhq> fizzie: Though *pressure* probably has reasonable limits if you merely limit yourself to a specific medium.
21:45:06 <nooga> wtf are you talking about
21:45:30 <nooga> from simplistic VM to quantum physics -> #esoteric
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22:04:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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22:16:15 <calamari> nooga: they're talking about perfect audio reproduction
22:16:45 <calamari> but somehow they've magically found perfect mics and speakers
22:18:03 <calamari> with THD of 0 and perfectly flat frequency response over an insanely large range
22:19:37 <fizzie> It was more about audio storage/transmission, where we just postulate the existence of perfect recording and playback equipment.
22:21:57 -!- augur has joined.
22:23:15 * cpressey joins some other freenode channels on a whim
22:23:36 <cpressey> Suspecting this will just confirm my suspicion that this is the only one that will hold my interest
22:24:14 <calamari> cpressey: I used to go to #crypto .. that one had some good discussions
22:24:22 <fizzie> Oo, many times I've been considering doing that, but never managed to decide where to join to.
22:26:36 <zzo38> I can set up channels on my own IRC server, too, for things that you might want, and they will automatically be logged. So that can be used if you need this kind of service (if you don't, there are other IRC networks too)
22:26:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:27:29 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:27:45 <calamari> sometimes when my kids throw a fit is is absolutely hilarious, but I haven't decided if laughing would cause them long term emotional harm
22:35:13 <zzo38> Ask them which way they prefer?
22:36:26 <cpressey> Well. The maintenance guy came up to fix the oven, took it apart (with bits of it all over the kitchen floor now), then left while I was in the other room. Presumably to get a necessary tool or something. Haven't seen him in 20 minutes now, though.
22:36:31 <cpressey> I wonder how this will turn out.
22:39:47 <Vorpal> <calamari> with THD of 0 and perfectly flat frequency response over an insanely large range <-- THD?
22:40:23 <fizzie> Total harmonic distortion, was it?
22:40:46 <Vorpal> cpressey, If you are still looking for extra channels, what about #haskell?
22:41:17 <cpressey> Vorpal: 16:40 -!- channels : #bash #scheme #ruby #picolisp #falcon #python #haskell ##pfsense #esoteric
22:41:40 <Vorpal> cpressey, mhm. pfsense? falcon?
22:41:59 <Vorpal> cpressey, #bash can be hilarious at times btw.
22:42:15 <fizzie> cpressey: A friend just facebooked (and a friend-of-a-friend told a similiar story) about a plumber that came to fix something, left saying "I'll need to go get some more tools from the car", and then never came back (or at least not in two weeks).
22:42:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, watch out for greycat (regular there) trying to help a newbie. Headdesking will likely ensue!
22:44:00 <Vorpal> cpressey, seems he is offline atm though
22:44:19 <Vorpal> cpressey, what is #falcon about?
22:44:24 <Vorpal> cpressey, another suggestion: #erlang
22:44:47 <Vorpal> cpressey, is it about the birds?
22:45:40 <fizzie> My guess would be the programming language.
22:45:58 <cpressey> Vorpal: Oh, you must have missed the recent, ah, research we've been doing into the Falcon language here recently.
22:46:18 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh? what paradigm is it?
22:46:32 <Vorpal> and why would anyone in this channel be interested in it
22:46:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, I never hard of it as a programming language before today
22:47:50 <Sgeo> I never realized that XChat made it easy to manipulate autojoin channels!
22:48:14 <cpressey> Vorpal: Glad you asked! "Falcon provides six integrated programming paradigms: procedural, object oriented, prototype oriented, functional, tabular and message oriented."
22:48:53 <Sgeo> What's the difference between object-oriented and message oriented?
22:49:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, ah okay.... sounds like aiming for bloated... Or to be more precise: tricky to pull that off in a good way and without getting bloated
22:49:52 <Vorpal> cpressey, so what's so special about the language apart from supporting multiple paradigms
22:50:16 <Vorpal> btw, what is the tabular programming paradigm? Lookup tables?
22:51:11 <cpressey> Vorpal: Please read the table on http://www.falconpl.org/index.ftd?page_id=facts -- in particular, the "Functional programming" row.
22:51:42 <Sgeo> Vorpal, in-memory SQLite with multiple copies of tables
22:52:04 <Sgeo> Well, SQLite-like I guess
22:52:15 <Sgeo> And not using SQL
22:52:20 <Sgeo> Ok, my explanations suck
22:52:55 <cpressey> As far as I understand it, it means to say "None of these other languages try to embed S-expressions in an otherwise vanilla-procedural programming language"
22:55:08 <cpressey> Oh, but my favourite part is how Falcon does "monadic programming" with "out of band values".
22:55:31 <Vorpal> cpressey, you don't need s-expressions to be functional
22:56:03 <Vorpal> cpressey, "monadic programming" with "out of band values" <-- is it just me, or is that technobabel?
22:56:34 <cpressey> Vorpal: Ah, you may be catching on!
22:56:38 <cpressey> "Marking an item as out-of-band allows the creation of monads in functional evaluations. More automatism will be introduced in future, but scripters can have monads by assigning the oob status to complex objects and perform out-of-band processing on them."
22:57:18 <Vorpal> cpressey, where did it say that?
22:57:23 <cpressey> I'm really wondering if I'm sick enough to try CODING something in this language. I have the implementation installed...
22:57:34 <cpressey> Vorpal: It's on http://www.falconpl.org/project_docs/core/funset_oob_support.html
22:58:16 <Vorpal> cpressey, are all parts as bad as the functional part?
22:58:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, or are the procedural parts better?
22:59:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, also the way to measure "raw loop speed" is utterly silly. Just throw in an llvm style JIT there and it would probably constant fold it
23:00:31 <cpressey> Vorpal: I think it's fair to say that it's their approach to language design & implementation, that I find entertaining.
23:00:42 <cpressey> Er, and to ... language marketing.
23:01:01 <Vorpal> cpressey, not as bad as mathematica though
23:01:15 <cpressey> The language itself, if you take out the "ooh! functional!" parts, is pretty plain-jane pythonish-rubyish-whatnot, it looks like.
23:01:22 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:01:30 <cpressey> Vorpal: Well! When you get into "math tools" -- have you seen R?
23:01:37 <Phantom_Hoover> As someone who understands monads, I wish to object to this
23:01:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, read the first paragraph on http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/FunctionalProgramming.html
23:02:03 <Vorpal> cpressey, that is one huge ego making false claims
23:02:18 <Vorpal> cpressey, I have heard of R. I never used it.
23:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently Haskell and OCaml do not even register to the hugeness of Wolfram's ego.
23:02:22 <Vorpal> can't remember what the code looks like
23:02:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or LISP
23:02:38 <cpressey> Vorpal: Loading. Ah - I should have said "When you get into things done by Wolfram -- well!"
23:03:14 * Phantom_Hoover cannot tell for the life of him what Falcon calls monads
23:03:14 <cpressey> "Long viewed as an important theoretical idea, functional programming finally became truly convenient and practical with the introduction of Mathematica's symbolic language."
23:03:42 <cpressey> A truly convenient and practical functional programming language!
23:03:47 <cpressey> Vorpal: The Bad Language Marketing Game
23:03:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, is the OOB stuff doing functor-related things?
23:04:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, it also has "industrial-strength string manipulation" according to another page
23:04:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, Mathematica isn't *that* unpleasant, just agglutinative to an insane degree.
23:04:17 <Vorpal> cpressey, what on earth that means I don't know
23:04:24 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: OOB seems to "tag" a value with a special invisible quality which makes some built-in functions do something different with it when they receive it.
23:04:38 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: And you thought *I* had a nuts view of monads.
23:05:51 <Vorpal> it seems to have functions to compute hamming distance and edit distance... And dictionary lookup. Apart from that it seems like a fairly normal set of functions for string processing
23:06:29 <Phantom_Hoover> If it can be computed, Mathematica has a built-in function for it.
23:07:01 <Vorpal> cpressey, what about this one:
23:07:04 <Vorpal> "Mathematica provides a uniquely integrated and automated environment for parallel computing. With zero configuration, full interactivity and seamless local and network operation, the symbolic character of the Mathematica language allows immediate support of a variety of existing and new parallel programming paradigms and data-sharing models."
23:07:12 <Vorpal> I can say it is shoddy at best
23:08:08 <Vorpal> and not very automatic at all
23:08:16 <Vorpal> I would rather say it is a PITA to use
23:08:37 <cpressey> "Google saw it and it blew them away! They just up and stopped using MapReduce and started using MATHEMATICA instead!"
23:08:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, I'm not sure if I would rather use it or pthreads. And considering what a PITA pthreads is... that says about everything...
23:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, any idea on what Falcon does when it natters about monads?
23:09:16 <Vorpal> "At the core of Mathematica's symbolic programming paradigm is the concept of transformation rules for arbitrary symbolic patterns. Mathematica's pattern language conveniently describes a very general set of classes of expressions, making possible uniquely readable, elegant and efficient programs."
23:09:18 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I am tempted to ask in #falcon. Maybe after I've had a few drinks.
23:09:22 <Vorpal> that one, I'm not sure what they mean
23:09:38 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: But, basically, what I said about it adding a "tag" to a value, is all I can tell.
23:09:47 <Vorpal> that statement is curiously devoid of any factual information
23:10:03 <Vorpal> but it sure sound pretentious!
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23:10:42 <cpressey> Vorpal: So it's a... rewriting language.
23:10:56 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes that's about all it says
23:11:40 <Vorpal> cpressey, mathematica wouldn't so bad if they didn't try to boost it's abilities to this degree. With some more factual documentation it would still turn out a decent product.
23:12:15 <Vorpal> shoddy in many parts though, and worth about 1/6 of the price
23:12:36 <Vorpal> but it wouldn't look so bad compared to it's own documentation!
23:13:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, anyway, it should come at no great surprise that a CAS like mathematica is based on rewriting symbolic expressions
23:14:06 <Vorpal> heck, that is likely the sanest way to implement a simplification function, by rewriting rules
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23:21:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me and my Haskell naïveté, or is it a rather ugly hack to add support for monads straight into a language?
23:21:40 <cpressey> Oh damn, I haven't been following this.
23:22:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is?
23:22:47 <zzo38> Now invent something like METAFONT but for music synthesis.
23:22:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Well, uh, "tabular programming paradigm" -- need I say more?
23:22:58 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, apparently OOB allows special handling of objects.
23:23:11 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's a "please handle me specially" bit.
23:23:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure that makes monads though
23:23:22 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
23:23:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, can't see how to do the IO monad with it for example
23:23:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume from this that they've implemented some horrible hack that bashes functors in somehow.
23:24:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, looks like they ignore TeX too: http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/MathematicalTypesetting.html
23:24:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I still don't think you can get proper monads from this.
23:24:43 <Vorpal> and yes, TeX is in my opinion far better
23:25:09 <Vorpal> maybe they are correct about the input, but that is just how they render it
23:25:27 <Vorpal> but the rendered result is shoddy compared to TeX using CM
23:25:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no it doesn't afaik
23:27:30 -!- madbr has joined.
23:27:31 <zzo38> TeX is better, and it is better for more than just mathematical typesetting. Mathematica is just a large program that does too many things and costs a lot of money, and is not Free Software.
23:28:04 <Vorpal> indeed. We were poking fun at wolfram's large ego
23:28:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed
23:28:07 <madbr> http://fr.justin.tv/surasshu#/w/361774448 <-chipmusic stream
23:28:32 <madbr> (original songs from famicompo, quality varies ofc :D)
23:30:19 <zzo38> I don't want that, do you have the .NSF files instead? (If they are written on .NSF, that is.....)
23:30:55 <madbr> http://midr2.under.jp/compo/vol7/index.html
23:32:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:32:33 <zzo38> OK thanks, why didn't you just post that one at first?
23:32:55 <madbr> cause we're doing a synclisten in espernet #mod_shrine
23:33:05 <madbr> but yeah that's fine too
23:33:10 <madbr> check out original #1
23:33:59 -!- teuchter has joined.
23:34:13 -!- alise has joined.
23:34:43 * oerjan was wondering about the alise deficiency
23:34:54 <zzo38> madbr: Original #1 is the one I currently have playing
23:35:02 <alise> oerjan: I simply had to be at a place today.
23:35:30 -!- choochter has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
23:35:52 <oerjan> yes but it's evening now
23:37:04 <oerjan> depends on your definition of "morning" - it feels strange to call just after 12 am morning
23:37:32 <zzo38> O! Entry number 2 uses MMC5
23:40:08 <zzo38> An idea I have is to make a .NSF music with multiple tracks, where each track is a variation of the same music, such as looping/non-looping, different waveforms, turning the music backward and/or upsidedown, different temperament, and so on
23:40:24 <alise> oerjan: I had to get up early and couldn't sleep; after coming back, I was tired enough to want to rest a bit before trekking up the stairs.
23:41:03 <madbr> zzo: not allowed in famicompo :( (no multi-tracks)
23:41:30 <oerjan> <fizzie> Who wrote this BytePusher/ByteByteJump thing anyway? Someone not on-channel, apparently?
23:41:37 <oerjan> javamannen on the wiki
23:41:42 <zzo38> Can .NSF format use different temperament?
23:41:58 <madbr> zzo: yeah but why would you use it
23:42:12 <zzo38> madbr: Why is that? What if they just make it if it has multiple tracks, they just use only track zero
23:42:31 <zzo38> Or, if they won't accept multi-tracks, just change the number of tracks in the header to zero before submitting the file
23:42:32 <madbr> I dunno, they just have a rule against it :/
23:42:39 <zzo38> (I mean, to one track)
23:43:21 <zzo38> madbr: So that you can use just intonation music, or pythagorean tuning (for Chinese music), or Bohlen-Pierce, or any other temperament, instead of using twelve tone equal temperament all the time
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23:44:04 <zzo38> madbr: Do they accept it if the file has multiple tracks but you change the header so it says it is only one track, and the others are not accessible unless someone fixes the file?
23:44:19 <madbr> yeah but in practice pythagorean is almost exactly like equal temperament
23:45:20 <zzo38> madbr: Yes it is close, but for some things it is better.
23:46:12 <madbr> bohlen-pierce has like no octave or no 5th
23:46:30 <madbr> zzo: the difference is like less than the nes tuning accuracy
23:46:56 <oerjan> (well, or so one might assume, the initial edits were anonymous ip. "javamannen" means "the java man" in norwegian, btw)
23:47:29 <zzo38> madbr: Yes that is true, but that is because Bohlen-Pierce has different intervals instead, for writing different kind of music. Just like just intonation and Mersenne and so on is all for different kind of music.
23:47:40 <cpressey> < Phantom_Hoover> I assume from this that they've implemented some horrible hack that bashes functors in somehow. <-- I simply assumed they wanted the use the word "monad" without regard for what it meant.
23:47:49 <madbr> zzo: but yeah in some music engines like it2nsf it's easy to detune by about the right amount
23:48:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, after much questioning, I still have little idea what they're going on about.
23:48:26 <madbr> it2nsf can detune in 1/16ths of a semitone
23:49:07 <zzo38> madbr: That is, if you are using a program like it2nsf. If you program directly instead, you could program it however you want (within the limits of the NES APU and any audio addons that are part of the .NSF format)
23:49:41 <madbr> zzo: that's not a good strategy for making music
23:50:06 <madbr> simply because it makes it harder to put in notes and listen to what you're doing
23:50:35 <zzo38> Some people listened to music in their mind because they cannot hear it
23:51:08 <zzo38> Tracker programs are just too limited in my opinion
23:51:21 <madbr> limited? by what? :D
23:52:11 <zzo38> Limited in all sorts of ways. These programs are not METAFONT!
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23:53:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I've come to a degree of understanding over OOB monads, and my conclusion from this is that they're so hideous I won't explain out of kindness.
23:54:23 <zzo38> madbr: Have you heard of TeX? METAFONT is the program to design fonts for TeX documents.
23:54:41 <Phantom_Hoover> If I understand correctly, the way they do it will cause map to explode if you use a monad in it.
23:55:05 <zzo38> And I think TeX and METAFONT are very good for the things they do.
23:55:37 <Phantom_Hoover> And various other bits are so crazy that I feel that I must have got them wrong, but fear that I haven't.
23:56:21 <madbr> zzo: well, it's kinda like... mml is more flexible than trackers
23:56:36 <madbr> but mml is for aspies really
23:56:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: OOB?
23:56:45 <zzo38> madbr: What does "mml" means?
23:57:03 <madbr> mml is a system used mostly by japanese composers
23:57:11 <alise> No, thankfully; but yes, of it.
23:57:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Somewhere they said they could do monads through some mysterious OOB thing.
23:57:18 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Not much. Mathnerd314 is continuing to... explore their concepts.
23:57:29 <madbr> basically you write your song in text format and it compiles it to nsf
23:57:42 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Well, by which I mean, he said something.
23:57:47 <Phantom_Hoover> The rest is basically Lovecraft but with crappy languages.
23:58:05 <zzo38> madbr: Where is more information?
23:58:24 <cpressey> alise: We discovered that there is a #falcon channel on freenode. Hilarity ensued!
23:58:54 <madbr> zzo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Macro_Language
23:59:03 <alise> cpressey: Watch as I get banned!
23:59:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You bet it, baby.
23:59:17 <alise> <alise> Wow, it's like the insane asylum created an outpost, and it's on IRC!
23:59:51 <alise> Aww, he ignores me because I hurt his feelings.
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00:00:14 <alise> I hate them because they broke my brain and I want it back.
00:00:34 <madbr> zzo: basically it's polyphonic zzt #play
00:00:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me, or does implementing monads in the language itself seem like an inelegant hack?
00:01:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much,
00:01:44 <oerjan> 13:00:14 <pikhq> 32-bit PCM is sufficient for recording the full dynamic range possible in air.
00:01:47 <oerjan> 13:00:18 <pikhq> This includes shock waves.
00:02:20 <oerjan> we need that for those realistic nuclear hand grenade first-person shooters
00:02:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He's going to treat us like a band of trolls!
00:03:00 <madbr> pikhq: haha that's nice
00:03:00 <fizzie> oerjan: Also "end of the world"-class disaster movie soundtracks.
00:03:22 <Mathnerd314> alise: maybe you should just tell him that #esoteric is invading
00:04:09 <alise> Mathnerd314: "We will add your syntactical and semantical distinctiveness to our own. Your language will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
00:04:56 <alise> *semantic, not semantical
00:05:26 <Sgeo> Wow, that's a pretty good attack against the esoborg
00:05:39 <alise> Sgeo: What is, exactly?
00:05:41 <Sgeo> Have them try to assimilate a poisonous language
00:06:14 <alise> Mathnerd314: its only instruction is to load an esolang from the wiki
00:06:21 <alise> and combine it with the current one
00:06:22 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: we'd need a Category:Borg_assimilee to add to other languages then
00:07:02 <Sgeo> What happens when it tries to assimilate a Lisp and Factor?
00:07:09 <Sgeo> pre and post fix?
00:07:18 <alise> "They doesn't have to."
00:07:21 <Sgeo> Actually, I was vaguely wondering what a combination would be like
00:07:37 <alise> Sgeo: (define (f x) [(+ 2 "abc" length 2 +)] call)
00:07:56 <Sgeo> I was thinking more along the lines of some words being prefix some being suffic
00:08:02 <Sgeo> And no parents
00:08:57 <Mathnerd314> so something Haskell-like except with suffix-functions
00:09:37 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Did you just seriously use the word synergy in a non-ironic context?
00:09:37 <alise> <jonnymind> Phantom_Hoover: did you seriously use the word non-ironic in an non-ironic context?
00:09:38 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> You could probably run Wolfram Research in a few years if you started now.
00:09:38 <alise> <jonnymind> Phantom_Hoover: Uhm... is that good or bad?
00:09:46 <oerjan> incidentally, parens is no more a logical abbreviation of parentheses than parents is
00:10:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer.
00:10:20 <alise> But don't tell him anything.
00:10:25 <alise> This is a silent invasion of laughter.
00:10:27 <oerjan> ok maybe slightly, the latter divides a phoneme
00:11:23 <oerjan> `addquote <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer.
00:11:38 <fizzie> Parenth, for people with lithpth.
00:11:41 <HackEgo> 218|<alise> Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer.
00:11:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> jonnymind, oh, good. Your attitude towards language design is very similar to that of Wolfram himself.
00:12:04 <alise> <lucone> even the egos are similar....
00:12:04 <alise> * jonnymind searches the ban button :)
00:12:13 <alise> Even his channel members are turning against him!
00:12:35 <oerjan> poor lucone, banned for getting the joke?
00:12:58 <alise> everyone's just ganging up against him
00:14:26 <zzo38> Is there a addon for PPMCK that allows mixing MML codes with assembler codes and machine codes?
00:14:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <jonnymind> falcon had to be fast in managing raw native data in a way that was high level and comfortable in a script. ← therefore monads. Makes sense.
00:15:42 <alise> <alise> A design philosophy combines their justifications into one coherent goal.
00:15:43 <alise> <jonnymind> alise: was getting to it.
00:15:48 <alise> <lists 20 minor design goals>
00:16:16 <alise> When I degenerate into just outright flaming his stupidity, I'm gonna whip out the Borg line.
00:16:58 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Add to...?
00:17:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, stop being evil.
00:17:48 <alise> I seriously want to interrogate this insane man.
00:19:48 <alise> <alise> Feather barely even exists in its creator's mind.
00:19:48 <alise> <alise> (Like a four-spatial-dimensional object, poking slightly in and moving around in some incomprehensible way, dropping out occasionally.)
00:19:48 <alise> <lucone> that's poetry...
00:20:03 <zzo38> Add some of the INTERCAL stuff, such as the FORGET command and things like threaded COME FROM.
00:20:18 <zzo38> And also add the preprepreprocessor. (Enhanced CWEB has a preprepreprocessor)
00:20:19 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:21:16 -!- wareya has joined.
00:21:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, I realised it could work earlier on being said by Falcon.
00:22:35 <alise> We shall take Tiger Mountain. By strategy!
00:22:37 <oerjan> <fizzie> cpressey: A friend just facebooked (and a friend-of-a-friend told a similiar story) about a plumber that came to fix something, left saying "I'll need to go get some more tools from the car", and then never came back (or at least not in two weeks).
00:22:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, BtW, Feather is meant to be computable, and AFAIK is.
00:22:50 <oerjan> clearly there is an epidemic of alien plumber abductions
00:22:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I know.
00:23:26 <oerjan> or wait the other one was a maintenance guy, not a plumber
00:23:35 <oerjan> but the evidence is clear, anyway
00:23:39 <cpressey> fizzie: FTR he did eventually come back and say that it needs a part that he won't be able to get 'til Tuesday.
00:24:05 <cpressey> Plumbers are just specialized pipe maintenance guys.
00:24:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: ooh, maybe they've been abducting people to fix it, yeah
00:24:43 <alise> Unix is primarily about pipe maintenance.
00:25:22 <alise> Hey, another Voyager cast member who hates it!
00:25:24 <alise> [[After being cast as Harry Kim, Wang had a strained relationship with Voyager executive producer Rick Berman, who took over from Star Trek inventor Gene Roddenberry: "When Roddenberry passed the reins over to [Rick] Berman, unfortunately Berman kept the same formula. And he just kept plugging it in. So when I'm asked what made Voyager stand out...you are talking about the same overall formula so it doesn't. It has stayed the same for every single episode.
00:25:41 <oerjan> alise: why else would the internet tubes run on it, duh
00:25:47 <alise> [[In a 2007 interview with scifiworld.com, Wang voiced his displeasure about the show. He felt the Harry Kim character was "underused", passive and one-dimensional. Prior to Season 2, he went to the producers and said: "Listen I want to have a stunt double, I want to do some stunts, I want to run, I want to kick; I want to have a love life". He also stated to only have had "minimal" creative impact upon Harry Kim: he desperately wanted Harry Kim to be funn
00:25:47 <alise> ier, but the producers felt that Neelix or The Doctor fit better as comic relief. In the end, he described it as unfulfilling,[2] and also spoke of a "rift" between Berman and him.[1] When he complained that every other character on the show got promoted except Kim, he was told that he had to remain the lowly Ensign because "well someone's got to be the ensign".[3]]]
00:27:30 <alise> <alise> jonnymind: Philosophies usually are :)
00:27:31 <alise> <jonnymind> let's say that there may be different ways to solve a problem.
00:27:31 <alise> <jonnymind> Not the complexity theory.
00:28:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I have to keep the peace.
00:28:18 <alise> This is interesting.
00:28:26 <alise> Although I have decided he simply has really terrible taste.
00:28:46 <alise> ... [ name|"unknown", income| {=> self.name.len()*100} ],
00:28:48 <Mathnerd314> hmm. Borg should have a design philosophy.
00:28:59 <alise> Just call me Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
00:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I am still of the opinion that his philosophy is that other languages have cool things, and that he wants these cool things.
00:31:19 <zzo38> Add commands to adjust the optimizer
00:31:40 <zzo38> Add stack based programming
00:31:49 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: to assimilate all other languages and their features is not obvious enough for you?
00:32:46 <Phantom_Hoover> For Borg, how about have one construct, "<lang> will be assimilated" and then perform the following block of code?
00:33:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i haven't looked at falcon but my intuition is that there are clearly cool features in various languages that are _incompatible_ with each other. and that _might_ be part of falcon's problem, i don't know.
00:33:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Possibly piping each block to the next, or viewing it as a function of some description.
00:33:56 <zzo38> You need function concatenation operator
00:34:30 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
00:35:16 <Phantom_Hoover> "<lang> will be assimilated [as <function name>] [with <implementation]"
00:35:35 <oerjan> (full type inference vs. object subtyping, for one. simplicity vs. all the rest, for another...)
00:36:27 <zzo38> You need to add some features that are like Forth. Often it is a kind of problem a bit sometimes that other program language do not have these kind of feature like Forth.
00:36:34 <zzo38> Add rule functions like Magic Set Editor has.
00:37:11 <alise> Very, very slightly.
00:38:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the overall justification is interesting, but not very sensible.
00:39:10 <oerjan> <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: OOB seems to "tag" a value with a special invisible quality which makes some built-in functions do something different with it when they receive it.
00:39:22 <Vorpal> zzo38, why does everything have to be like Forth? Surely some non-Forth languages might be good?
00:39:52 <oerjan> hm that's more or less the idea i had for the LiMonadE vapor-language (unlambda + monads)
00:40:08 <Vorpal> oerjan, augh at the pun
00:40:09 <zzo38> Vorpal: Not everything has be like Forth, but some of these feature are useful
00:40:14 <oerjan> (the quality being the monad, of course)
00:40:38 <zzo38> Make a preprepreprepreprocessor
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00:40:51 <zzo38> And also postpostpostprocessor
00:41:36 <zzo38> I think this kind of feature can be useful sometime
00:42:10 <Vorpal> I can't see the use for more than a single layer of pre-processing in general.
00:42:31 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:42:51 * Vorpal consider lisp meta-macros
00:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ...And jonnymind has just said that his monad model can easily break if you use it with map.
00:46:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:49:41 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB has its own meta-macros format, and they have many purposes, and can be mixed with TeX as well as with the C preprocessor, and that means it can do a lot of things.
00:51:17 <zzo38> (A common thing I use is to define @-p to predeclare a procedure as well as start its definition, without having to repeat it)
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01:14:24 <cpressey> oerjan: Re Falcon: it is both the incompatibility of everything, plus the, well, non-standard nomenclature. I would bet the designers do not hold degrees in CS (otherwise they would be more careful about what they call a "monad" or "functional programming", is all.)
01:15:42 <oerjan> (mind you i don't hold a degree in CS either :D)
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01:16:52 <Tatiana1> First of all, sorry for my terrible english
01:17:36 <alise> We're not about religion.
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01:18:50 <Sgeo> Let me come home
01:18:55 <Sgeo> Home is whenever I'm with you
01:18:58 <zzo38> You have to go to your own home
01:19:02 <zzo38> And I go to my own home
01:20:39 <oerjan> Tatiana1: i am from norway. although this channel is not usually an "ordinary" chat channel either (we talk about computers, technology and math a lot)
01:21:08 <Sgeo> Are you saying that ordinary chat rooms have most of the people be from the same area?
01:21:19 <Sgeo> If so, where would I find such a chat channel for my area?
01:21:32 <oerjan> actually i have no idea what they are like since i've probably never been on one :D
01:21:38 <Tatiana1> ok, it is a ecletic chat rsrsrs
01:22:07 <zzo38> It is for esoteric programming, so you can look at the wiki for more information about esoteric programming language
01:22:09 <alise> Sgeo: buy a dictionary
01:22:14 <alise> what zzo38 said, i was about to say that
01:22:20 <oerjan> Sgeo: what i really mean is that we're not the kind of chat where you start out by asking people where they are from ;D
01:22:21 <alise> Sgeo: or use the internet
01:22:59 <Sgeo> No such word as ecletic
01:23:07 <zzo38> It is correct. We not generally start by asking where you are from
01:23:12 <oerjan> although many of us do know where many of the others are from, eventually :)
01:23:28 <oerjan> at least approximately
01:23:37 <zzo38> Sometimes looking at the IP address / domain name can help a bit
01:23:47 <zzo38> To see where you are from, in case you are interested
01:24:15 <Sgeo> Well, the Internet has been unhelpful
01:24:52 <oerjan> and to do that, you can usually do a /whois someone's_nickname command. i think. it probably depends on client.
01:24:57 <alise> Sgeo: oh, i see, boring typo pointing outs
01:25:15 <Sgeo> And eclectic doesn't seem to have any.. oh, I see what he thinks this is
01:25:20 <Sgeo> Just a general chatroom?
01:25:25 <Sgeo> Combination of stuff?
01:25:26 <zzo38> In this client it just displays it in every message that user sends.
01:25:35 <cpressey> *Are* there "general chatrooms" on freenode?
01:25:41 <Sgeo> cpressey, defocus
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01:26:09 <zzo38> We do all sorts of stuff in this channel, but mostly programming stuff, and sometimes mathematical stuff, and things related to that, are most common. And esoteric programming discussion is on topic to this channel.
01:26:10 <alise> cpressey: defocus; it's shit
01:26:40 <Sgeo> alise, it's an IRC channel
01:26:43 <Sgeo> How can it be shit?
01:26:54 <zzo38> (This client displays other client's IP address / domain name before every message, in dark cyan, after the @ sign)
01:27:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: we _are_ pretty eclectic, just not general. iiuc what eclectic means.
01:27:58 <alise> Sgeo: is this one of your hyper-literal-interpretations-are-hilarious thing, or just... I don't know
01:27:59 <cpressey> Tatiana1: #esoteric = (computer programmers | mathematicians) + (very smart | very strange | very creative)
01:28:07 <alise> cpressey: hahahaha
01:28:28 <cpressey> Tatiana1: I don't follow "rsrsrs".
01:28:31 <zzo38> cpressey: I guess that is pretty close!
01:28:43 <Sgeo> alise, it's an uttern failure to understand
01:28:44 <alise> #esoteric = (dabblers & dilettantes & amateurs) + (computing skill) + (a few people of actual merit) :-)
01:28:52 <alise> but we're cool dilettantes!
01:29:01 <alise> Sgeo: #defocus is shit. As a community ... it is shit.
01:29:02 <zzo38> alise: I suppose that is also it!
01:29:09 <alise> Are you unfamiliar with the expletive "shit"?
01:29:32 <oerjan> Tatiana1: rsrsrsrs isn't very common here, we usually use smileys or maybe a lol
01:29:35 <nooga> alise: who is of actual merit?
01:29:43 * Sgeo has never seen rsrsrsrs before now\
01:29:44 <cpressey> alise: I suppose I'm painting the ideal rather than the reality. But, damn, most of us *are* one of those.
01:29:46 <Sgeo> Have seen rsr5
01:30:14 <alise> nooga: well, that would be telling (and rude to everyone else). (ais523, cpressey, oerjan, a few others)
01:30:33 <nooga> ofc including yourself.... ?
01:30:42 <alise> nooga: I don't see why.
01:31:01 <nooga> nothing, ignore that
01:31:09 <alise> Dabbling dilettante with computing skill. I don't see why that doesn't fit me better than actually-skilled-person.
01:31:41 <nooga> Tatiana1: hau hau is actually a way to write the sound that dogs make
01:31:52 <zzo38> I think both cpressey's and alise's fits well.
01:32:12 <cpressey> alise: Well. If you want to look at what we DO, sure. We dabble. We... dilletante things up.
01:32:13 <oerjan> Sgeo: i have a hunch alise may think general chatrooms are shit in general
01:32:28 <alise> oerjan: absolutely not! I loooove #esoteric
01:32:50 <oerjan> alise: i thought we just established #esoteric was _not_ a general chatroom
01:32:54 <Sgeo> The observable Universe
01:33:03 <nooga> we had that map, remember?
01:33:04 <alise> oerjan: well we like to pretend it's not :-)
01:33:16 <zzo38> Tatiana1: I am from Canada, in case you really care. (You can check my domain name and see that my service provider is from Canada, too)
01:33:19 <alise> nooga: we downloaded all the data before the site shot itself
01:33:22 <Sgeo> He has no face!.... erm, it has no topic1
01:33:47 <oerjan> although of course #esoteric may be twisted into an approximation of what hyper-geeks might think an ideal general chatroom _should_ be. it's why i'm here, isn't it.
01:33:59 <alise> Tatiana1: England, the country of violating 14 year olds' human rights as defined by the UN, and rain.
01:34:03 <alise> Uhh, I'm totally not bitter or anything.
01:34:09 <Sgeo> Wow, that reference is ungoogleable
01:34:34 <Sgeo> It is modarchive.org -able
01:35:13 * Sgeo decides that the n in nooga stands for "nothing"
01:35:26 <oerjan> Sgeo: actually my swat wasn't for your misspelling, i didn't even notice that :D
01:35:36 <cpressey> Well, what, "on topic"? A few days ago I released a stupid language called Eightebed, which proved nothing *really*, but which released me to work on something else for a while. I've had a few ideas, one of which is a fixed set of grid-rewrite rules which I think could be Turing-complete in an interesting way.
01:35:42 <zzo38> Tatiana1: But maybe you want to see the things that the people on this channel have invented and stuff, if you really care, that is.
01:35:52 <nooga> Tatiana1: Poland, polar bears, vodka, moustache etc etc
01:36:07 <cpressey> And the occasional vodka moustache.
01:36:19 * Sgeo attempts to make BF-RLE sound important
01:36:23 <nooga> i've never seen a goddamn polar bear
01:36:38 <alise> nooga: oh in reply to what i said? :)
01:37:20 <Sgeo> http://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_by_moduleid&query=73115
01:37:24 <nooga> anyway, sleep time, brb
01:37:29 <Sgeo> shipped with the desktop version of Alchemy
01:38:16 <alise> Tatiana1: we didn't say otherwise
01:38:37 <cpressey> Tatiana1: I'm more of a "This sentence is false" person myself.
01:39:07 <Sgeo> This sentence is true but unprovable.
01:39:47 <Sgeo> This sentence is false, but its negation is unprovable.
01:39:57 <oerjan> nooga: i'm not sure you quite get the r part of brb
01:40:17 <oerjan> either that or you sleep rather fast
01:40:21 <Sgeo> This sentence is true, and its negation is unprovable
01:40:28 <Sgeo> This sentence is false and unprovable
01:40:34 <Sgeo> Work out stuff relating to the above
01:40:42 * Sgeo makes hand-wavy gesture
01:41:00 <oerjan> This sentence is equivalent to the Riemann hypothesis.
01:41:22 <Sgeo> Surely "The Riemann hypothesis." is simpler?
01:41:24 <cpressey> Tatiana1: Brazil's pretty cool. That's where Lua comes from.
01:41:31 <Sgeo> Surely "The Riemann hypothesis is true." is simpler?
01:41:32 <zzo38> This sentence's negation is provable if and only if the Riemann hypothesis is correct.
01:42:02 <cpressey> Oh, I forgot to mention: we're largely concerned with programming languages, formal calculi, and models of computation here.
01:42:17 <Sgeo> May be easier to deal with "This sentence's negation is provable if and only if statement P is true."
01:42:33 <Sgeo> See how that relates to statement P
01:42:58 <Sgeo> The jsforth guy complained about Lua due to lack of bit manipulation
01:42:59 <cpressey> Maybe "largely concerned" is too strong. Theoretically, we all like those things. They make us feel good.
01:43:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: I also complained about Lua due to lack of bit manipulations, too.
01:43:54 <cpressey> I could care less for bit manipulations. I mostly like Lua.
01:44:12 <Sgeo> I don't mind 1-indexing in a language. But when it's supposed to interact with C..
01:44:27 <Sgeo> Not really a strong complaint, but still
01:44:39 <Sgeo> Ooh! adjustable indexing!
01:44:42 * Sgeo turns into a Perl
01:44:48 <alise> <oerjan> either that or you sleep rather fast ;; damn Uberman
01:45:06 <alise> <Sgeo> Surely "The Riemann hypothesis is true." is simpler? ;; Surely [Riemann hypothesis] is simpler?
01:46:10 <cpressey> Sgeo: I'm not thrilled with the conflating of maps and arrays. Part of me says, that's just going too far.
01:47:28 -!- Tatiana2 has joined.
01:47:57 <alise> cpressey: Better than Tcl conflating everything with strings.
01:48:39 * Sgeo o.Os at the number of Titanics in the Futurama universe
01:49:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: is it countable or uncountable?
01:49:14 <Sgeo> countably finite
01:49:27 * Sgeo wonders if "uncountably finite" makes sense
01:50:09 <zzo38> Sgeo: It only make sense if what you mean by "uncountably" is that it is too long to count and you don't have time or words for them
01:50:30 <zzo38> But that is probably not what is meant, because it isn't what it meant in "uncountably infinite"
01:50:31 <Sgeo> I hate only having 3 options when there are 2 booleans
01:50:38 <oerjan> there is that model of ZF without axiom of choice where two definitions or finite don't coincide, though
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01:51:24 <oerjan> one of them being essentially "can be counted by a finite natural number", the other being "is not the same size as a proper subset of itself"
01:52:40 <Sgeo> Example of a set where those definitions aren't equivalent?
01:52:41 <oerjan> however if you can be counted by any ordinal at all, those two coincide
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01:54:18 <oerjan> well in such a model you have sets that are not equivalent to a proper subset of themselves, but which _still_ are not equivalent in size to any {1,...,n}
01:54:44 <cpressey> * Sgeo wonders if "uncountably finite" makes sense <-- Thank you; you are justifying "very strange"
01:55:11 <Sgeo> I don't want to have a table with 4 spaces with one space not making sense!
01:55:15 <cpressey> 1, 2, 3... ah, shit, I'm bored. Well, I guess that the numbers on the clock are uncountably finite.
01:55:15 <oerjan> you cannot embed _all_ the naturals into them, but you can embed any finite set of naturals. you cannot extend the embedding to all without using the axiom of choice.
01:55:16 <zzo38> I do sometimes think of strange things like that too, but not specifically that
01:55:19 <Sgeo> It's ugly and horrible and nightmare incuding
01:56:34 <oerjan> in a sense such a set is uncountable (not equivalent to a subset of naturals) but still finite in the other sense
01:57:23 <zzo38> Sgeo: What is ugly and horrible? And why?
01:57:46 <Sgeo> and ~A ~B doesn't exist
01:58:06 <zzo38> And in what context?
01:58:38 <Sgeo> Any! *insanes*
02:00:26 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedekind-finite
02:00:58 <oerjan> verbing non-verbs, a clear sign of insaning
02:01:12 <zzo38> I am a bit insane too, a bit.... but I don't consider myself ugly and horrible and nightmare incuding
02:02:54 * Sgeo happies oerjan for allowing "uncountably finite" to exist
02:04:33 <zzo38> Insane people do things that are improper because the proper way is very wrong
02:06:02 <cpressey> Celia Green wrote a book with the thesis that in all of human history, only two people were sane. Everyone else was (and is) insane.
02:06:14 <cpressey> Just thought I'd throw that out there.
02:06:44 <zzo38> And insane monsters do things that are very improper because the very proper way is extremely wrong.
02:06:57 <zzo38> And when I play D&D game I prefer to play monster character.
02:07:30 <zzo38> And also because someone wrote a book, I don't know which book I mean, though.
02:08:05 * oerjan seconds Sgeo's question
02:08:32 <zzo38> Yes, which two people? Or, does Celia Green not know which two?
02:10:08 <oerjan> clearly the answer must be something explosive.
02:11:10 <cpressey> Sgeo: Jesus Christ and Frederick Neitzsche.
02:11:36 <cpressey> Not saying I agree with her, or anything.
02:11:37 * oerjan had a hunch about the first one
02:11:40 <zzo38> cpressey: THey are also just as insane as everyone else, I think
02:13:31 <cpressey> zzo38: I agree. I would also note that Jesus Christ, as portrayed in the New Testament, is in my opinion largely fictional, and that ol' Fred is just as insane as anyone else, just in a completely different direction.
02:14:11 <cpressey> (I say the latter based on having read Thus Spoke Zarathustra; I've never read the New Testament from cover to cover, though.)
02:14:48 <cpressey> Fred makes some good points, but, sheesh. Calm down, dude. Sit. Have some tea. Organize your thoughts.
02:15:06 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes, I agree with you about Neitzsche, and about Jesus, that may be correct (we don't actually know what (if anything) happened, it is just written by a few people).
02:19:11 <zzo38> If my character is dead, I create another character, a different monster character, also, and beginning at the next session, and the DM has to fit it into the game somehow, there are many ways
02:21:10 * Sgeo wonders why people are following him
02:22:37 <zzo38> Are clones following you?
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02:30:50 <oerjan> apparently they must have got him
02:32:27 <zzo38> Oops! I didn't mean to do that!
02:32:43 <zzo38> I pushed the "d" button! That makes the room exsovalve!
02:33:18 <oerjan> i would probably be panicking if i knew what exsovalve was
02:33:33 <zzo38> I don't know what exsovalve is either
02:34:02 <oerjan> good, good. then maybe we can avoid panic
02:39:23 <cpressey> Well, well, an INTERCAL reference in #haskell.
02:39:35 <cpressey> That means everyone playing "the game" has to take a swig.
02:43:37 <oerjan> so that's what they call "the game" these days
02:44:14 <oerjan> clearly INTERCAL is no match for haskell's reverse state monad
02:47:25 <cpressey> Ah, so much crazy, so little time.
02:50:17 <cpressey> What should I do, to make the best use of my limited crazy-time?
02:52:32 <zzo38> cpressey: I don't know?
02:53:22 <oerjan> this problem is obviously at _least_ NP-complete.
02:53:26 <cpressey> Of course not. Don't mean to put that burden on '
02:53:57 <cpressey> But first, I'm going to see if the reverse state monad is something real, or something oerjan just made up.
02:55:09 <oerjan> the top google hit seems aptly named
02:57:58 <cpressey> OK, I can only imagine how that works.
02:58:15 <cpressey> My understanding of monads is (ask Phantom_Hoover) still quite crude.
02:58:36 <cpressey> I was thinking just the other day,
02:58:51 <cpressey> "You know, there ought to be any number of really bizarre monads you could write"
02:59:06 <cpressey> (Not that anyone in this channel could think of any at the time)
03:02:09 <zzo38> I don't think of any at the time, because I don't know a lot about monads, to think of it.
03:11:26 <Sgeo> I thought reverse state was an esome inventiojn
03:12:51 <pikhq> Why is it that simply placing cheese between slices of bread and grilling it freaking *delicious*?
03:12:59 <pikhq> s/freaking/is freaking/
03:13:45 <zzo38> Because you can make sandwich!
03:14:09 <Sgeo> pikhq, I hate non-grilled cheese sandwiches
03:14:19 <Sgeo> Are grilled really that much better? I never tried
03:15:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: ... Non-grilled cheese sandwiches? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS.
03:15:32 <cpressey> pikhq: There is a scientific reason. Let me see if I can remember it.
03:15:33 <Mathnerd314> I just eat the bread, then eat some cheese a while later...
03:16:51 <zzo38> Grilled sandwich is better, at least in my opinion.
03:17:15 <Mathnerd314> if I have some tomato in it too, then definitely yes
03:18:37 * Sgeo should find out how to grill sandwiches
03:18:50 <Sgeo> I need a grill, don't I? Are there safe indoors grills?
03:18:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's *ridiculously* easy.
03:19:03 <calamari> you need a frying pan and some butter
03:19:10 <pikhq> Get a frying pan, some butter, and a sandwich.
03:19:44 <pikhq> Heat up frying pan. Butter bread. Apply to frying pan until sufficiently grilled. Flip. Apply to frying pan until sufficiently grilled. Remove. Eat.
03:20:25 <Sgeo> How long does that take?
03:20:26 <alise> <Sgeo> pikhq, I hate non-grilled cheese sandwiches
03:20:26 <alise> <Sgeo> Are grilled really that much better? I never tried ;; yes
03:20:29 <pikhq> Okay, yes, you can also just oil the *pan* instead of the *sandwich*.
03:20:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: Like, 5 minutes?
03:20:46 <alise> they are far, far better
03:20:51 <alise> I must advocate the superior option
03:20:58 <alise> Here is how you make cheese on toast:
03:21:01 <cpressey> Damn, I cannot find a reference to it. But I found a book with a fantastic title: http://books.google.com/books?id=-oRp5VCVTQQC
03:21:07 <Sgeo> It doesn't taste less bad after some time, does it?
03:21:24 <Sgeo> I might end up bringing such sandwiches to school
03:21:24 <calamari> Sgeo: unless you like it burnt
03:21:36 <Sgeo> No, as in, make it, bring it to school, eat at school
03:21:38 <alise> Cheese on toast: Put butter on two slices of bread. Thick bread. Put cheese on these two slices. Strong cheese. Grill it (or whatever you want to do instead).
03:21:59 <alise> This is a more manly dish than a grilled cheese sandwich, but ... rather harder to store.
03:22:04 <alise> And you want to eat it hot.
03:22:21 * Mathnerd314 thinks about using an actual grill to make grilled cheese
03:22:58 <Sgeo> MMaybe I won't spend so much money on buying chicken sandwiches from the place on campus
03:23:19 <pikhq> alise: Okay, so. Texas toast and strong cheese.
03:23:28 <Sgeo> Then again, it is... why isn't poultry meat?
03:23:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's best hot.
03:23:38 <alise> Sgeo: It ... is ....
03:23:47 <alise> pikhq: Texas toast? Fuck that shit.
03:23:53 <pikhq> alise: It's thick bread.
03:24:08 <alise> pikhq: Nobody British enough to make a proper cheese on toast would buy anything with Texas in the name.
03:24:28 <cpressey> Anyway, I dimly remember some biochemistry term like "queso-opioid" or something, to refer to the chemicals that are produced when you bake or fry cheese.
03:24:32 <pikhq> alise: "Texas toast" is literally just thickly-sliced bread.
03:24:40 <alise> pikhq: Also, if it's bright, strong yellow and sliced it's not cheese.
03:24:48 <alise> I'm talking proper fucking cheddar here.
03:25:03 <cpressey> Damn! I want to go there sometime. To Cheddar, I mean.
03:25:08 * Sgeo decides not to make a Sgeo-style joke
03:25:09 <pikhq> alise: You want more horrification?
03:25:18 <calamari> so cheese tastes better melted because it's filled with drugs?
03:25:20 -!- oerjan has set topic: The cheesy channel | (a(:^)*S):^ | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? (Wiki capable of running nearly-arbitrary code) Vote: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:25:20 <pikhq> alise: There's things more artificial than "American cheese".
03:25:24 <cpressey> I wonder if they have a cheese tourism culture there... like Wisconsin.
03:25:36 <alise> calamari: haha wow
03:25:45 <pikhq> alise: For instance, there's "sliced cheese food product". People actually buy this and eat it.
03:26:03 <alise> pikhq: Well, I am totally not hearing you!
03:26:50 * Sgeo has no clue what kind of cheese is in the house
03:26:54 <Sgeo> American, I think
03:27:06 <pikhq> alise: Mostly composed of vegetable oil.
03:27:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: Get you some cheddar. Now that's cheese.
03:28:42 <alise> Sgeo: American cheese is just bad cheddar + various other suspicious crap added + stupid colouring.
03:28:59 <alise> + whatever else Kraft decides they want you to have in your body as opposed to something you actually want in your body -- of the week
03:30:34 <pikhq> alise: Actually American cheese is just leftover bits of cheese from *various things* + emulsifiers + stupid colouring.
03:30:48 <pikhq> alise: With more crap added to make it lower quality sometimes.
03:31:15 <pikhq> (if it's pre-wrapped slices, it's got crap added. And it's vomitous, rather than merely crappy.)
03:31:40 <alise> pikhq: Oh, so no actual proper cheese.
03:31:57 <alise> Well, apart from leftovers.
03:32:02 <alise> Sgeo: tl;dr get some mature cheddar.
03:32:03 <cpressey> calamari: I only wish I could find a reference for it so I'm sure I'm not hallucinating it.
03:32:07 <alise> No, not medium. Mature.
03:32:17 <alise> Not extra-super-duper mature, though, that's kind of icky.
03:32:22 <Sgeo> I've never been interested in cheese enough to care before
03:32:27 <alise> (Icky = Hey, I eat one crumb and it feels like my mouth hurts.)
03:32:39 <alise> Sgeo: That's probably because American cheese is the most boringly uninspiring food product there is.
03:32:49 <alise> Cheddar itself is delicious. Seriously.
03:33:02 <madbr> why does american cheese taste so bad
03:33:44 <alise> madbr: as in [does it really?] or [what is the cause?]
03:34:11 <pikhq> alise: Sometimes, it's instead just throwing together milk, whey, milk fat, milk protein, salt, and emulsifiers in the right proportions.
03:34:31 <pikhq> And yes, it is the most boring and bland cheese ever.
03:35:01 <pikhq> Cottage cheese has more flavor. And *that's* just curds and whey with some of the whey drained off.
03:36:14 <madbr> american cheese has a flavor
03:36:45 <pikhq> Crappy American cheese tastes bad.
03:36:51 <pikhq> "Good" American cheese just lacks taste.
03:37:28 <madbr> there are many grades?
03:38:11 <pikhq> Are you familiar with Cheez Whiz?
03:38:42 <madbr> familiar no, I stay the hell away from that stuff
03:38:52 <pikhq> Those are also American cheese.
03:38:54 <madbr> and my parents never buy it
03:39:48 <pikhq> alise: Easy Cheese, BTW, is "cheese" in a spray can. Yes. A spray can.
03:39:52 <alise> The only contact we Brits have with your icky American cheese crap is when we go into burger joints.
03:40:05 <pikhq> alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Easy_cheese2.jpg
03:40:13 <alise> Yes I... loaded the page.
03:40:18 <alise> That doesn't look like cheese.
03:40:34 <madbr> 1) cheese is not orange
03:40:36 <pikhq> It tastes like artificial cheese flavor.
03:41:00 <alise> If Kraft died tomorrow, the only innocent casualties would be a few chocolate brands.
03:41:06 <alise> (Toblerone, Milka. That's all I can think of.)
03:41:10 <pikhq> madbr: Cheddar cheese often is. (for no good reason, it's very common to dye it orange-yellow-ish)
03:41:23 <madbr> pikhq: that's regional
03:41:34 <madbr> pikhq: here they don't dye it so it's white
03:41:42 <zzo38> Where I live, they make cheddar cheese both white and orange, they make both kinds.
03:41:56 <alise> strong cheddar is never coloured in my experience
03:42:04 <alise> the orange is just the wimpy stuff for people who can't handle cheese
03:42:11 <alise> (and ofc you can get white mild cheddar too)
03:42:39 <pikhq> alise: I think you'd be amazed by some of the processed "foods" available in the US.
03:42:51 <alise> "In 1995 it was revealed that the Swedish politician Mona Sahlin had bought, among other things, two bars of Toblerone using her Riksdag credit card (i.e. taxpayer's money). This became known as the Toblerone affair. Sahlin was forced to step down as a candidate for the post as Prime Minister."
03:43:12 <alise> Wow, in the UK when our MPs started putting houses and porn and shit on their expenses, we just yelled at them for a month or two.
03:43:25 <pikhq> WE HAVE MOTHER FUCKING IMITATION MAYONNAISE.
03:43:33 <cpressey> Well, porn is one thing. But TOBLERONE???
03:43:38 <alise> pikhq: ...but mayonnaise is the simplest thing to exist, ever
03:43:58 <pikhq> alise: "Miracle Whip". It's imitation. Fucking. Mayonnaise.
03:44:18 <alise> pikhq: I don't want to talk about this any more or ever again or ever make it stop
03:44:51 <alise> Make the pain stop
03:44:53 <cpressey> pikhq: One thing I have discovered is that in the US, unlike Canada, you can get actual *pickle relish*. It's amazing. I didn't even know it existed before.
03:45:04 <pikhq> cpressey: Pickle relish is delicious.
03:45:21 <zzo38> Is it illegal in Canada?
03:45:42 <cpressey> zzo38: No -- I had just never been able to find it. It's all sweet relish.
03:45:59 <madbr> "In 1933, Kraft was a well-established distributor of mayonnaise, yet sales were slipping as a result of the Great Depression.[citation needed] Kraft developed a new dressing similar to mayonnaise, but at a lower price. Premiering at the Century of Progress World's Fair in Chicago in 1933, Miracle Whip was an instant success as a condiment on fruits, vegetables and salads."
03:46:06 <alise> Pickle relish is CORRUPTING OUR CHILDREN
03:46:32 <pikhq> alise: Hey, be glad you're not Italian.
03:46:39 <zzo38> I have no children and I use no relish.
03:46:41 <pikhq> alise: Oh how I could make you pain.
03:47:06 <pikhq> Y'know what, this might actually do it anyways.
03:47:08 <pikhq> alise: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3c/Kraftparmesan.jpg
03:47:11 <zzo38> alise: COMMUNIST???
03:47:18 <pikhq> Yes, really. That's powdered "parmesan".
03:47:19 <oerjan> alise: mind you Mona Sahlin got better, she's currently the opposition's PM candidate
03:48:34 <alise> oerjan: Wow, I'm amazed that's a scandal over there. Props to you guys.
03:48:47 <alise> zzo38: SOCIALISM FASCISM
03:49:10 <pikhq> alise: Oh, there's also imitation whipped cream.
03:49:24 <oerjan> there's currently somewhat of a "scandal" in norway about at least three government ministers accepting afghan carpets as gifts (completely legally, mind you)
03:49:28 <pikhq> Often in a spray can!
03:50:06 <oerjan> (those are the prime minister, foreign minister and defense minister, i.e. the three that actually had any business going to afghanistan)
03:50:09 <pikhq> alise: BTW, I'm only naming highly commonly consumed things, not niche oddities.
03:50:17 <alise> pikhq: Can I cry please?
03:50:31 <pikhq> (otherwise I'd mention things like canned pancake batter)
03:50:35 <Sgeo> I think I accidentally got upset over a simplification for teaching the other day
03:50:46 <alise> oerjan: Can you guys let me come live there? Thanks.
03:51:07 <Sgeo> Although I didn't realize that that's what it was, and I didn't know what it was non-simplified, and I got confused because the simplified BS made no sense whatsoever
03:51:41 <Sgeo> I suppose I should explain what I'm talking about
03:53:08 <pikhq> alise: We also brought non-dairy creamer to the world.
03:53:39 <pikhq> ... No, that was Switzerland.
03:53:56 <Sgeo> She was talking about sigfigs
03:53:57 <pikhq> Switzerland AND BRITAIN
03:54:04 <pikhq> alise: You should be ashamed.
03:54:15 <Sgeo> And how for addition and subtraction, you just look at the number of significant figures after the decimal place
03:55:03 <Sgeo> I didn't realize that this was just equivalent in some cases (presumably all that we'll be dealing with) to making the highest-place sigfig be the highest lowest sigfig in the operation
03:55:04 <alise> Sgeo: why is that being taught in university?
03:55:26 <pikhq> alise: Not taught in high school.
03:55:38 <Sgeo> We did do sigfigs in HS
03:55:47 <Sgeo> It's just been a while
03:55:56 <alise> the unit did significant figures shit with me recently (year 10; most people would be 15, me 14)
03:55:59 <alise> and i remember thinking
03:56:04 <alise> why is this simple shit being taught so late??
03:56:17 <oerjan> alise: it was also mention iirc that the minister for development (i.e. charity) had gotten a goat and a wife in sierra leone. however, he apparently didn't bring either back home ;D
03:56:24 <pikhq> alise: In many high school programs, it's not taught at all.
03:56:35 <alise> oerjan: The goat /was/ the wife.
03:56:43 <alise> pikhq: I refuse to answer. Let me cry alone.
03:56:52 <pikhq> I wish I were joking.
03:56:53 <oerjan> alise: no, that was another story, which i also seem to recall :D
03:57:11 <cpressey> Name a programming language or library which supports significant figures.
03:57:25 <oerjan> (the goat and the wife were as _gifts_, in case it wasn't clear)
03:57:45 <alise> "Here! Take my wife, Western king! (She's a whore.)"
03:58:01 <Sgeo> Sounds Stargate-ish
03:59:05 <pikhq> alise: About what age do you guys generally get to algebra?
03:59:54 <alise> pikhq: Uh, around the same age.
04:00:12 <alise> Trivial shit, like "find x and y".
04:00:23 <pikhq> Ah. Yeah, around the same age.
04:00:30 <calamari> I took it in 8th grade.. so what's that.. 13?
04:00:33 <pikhq> Which is pretty depressing.
04:00:45 <alise> pikhq: Around the same time as significant figures. :P
04:00:45 <pikhq> calamari: About. I did it in 7th.
04:00:53 <alise> Although, perhaps earlier, actually.
04:01:07 <alise> Since the unit were on this ridiculous "HE IS LACKING IN EDUCATION" kick at the time.
04:01:25 * pikhq did calculus his junior year. Whooooo...
04:01:34 <Sgeo> Isn't Education sometime around the 18th birthday?
04:02:28 <zzo38> I used sigfigs in physics class. I don't like using sigfigs except with scientific notation. When the question involved sigfigs I wrote down the answer using scientific notation.
04:02:32 <calamari> I saw political sign saying all kids should learn to read by 3rd grade.. I couldn't believe my eyes
04:02:51 <calamari> but I live in AZ.. and we suck :(
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04:03:30 <pikhq> calamari: I remember people still struggling with reading in my 3rd grade class.
04:03:34 <Sgeo> Supposedly, every kid in my kintergarted class learned to read rather quickly
04:03:37 <cpressey> ISTR sigfigs way earlier than algebra. Then again, ISTR a sigfigs "refresher" in 1st-year undergrad physics. Soooo...
04:03:42 <Sgeo> It was at some SLCD place
04:03:58 <pikhq> The teacher decided to teach phonics then. First time they'd seen any hint of words having anything to do with phonemes.
04:04:20 <calamari> people make fun of phonics.. but they work
04:04:26 <cpressey> Stupid phonetic alphabet! Who needs it!
04:04:37 <Sgeo> "The School for Language and Communication Development"
04:05:07 <pikhq> calamari: Better than brute-force pattern recognition.
04:05:12 * Sgeo o.Os at it being a school for children with "language and autism disorders"
04:05:29 <pikhq> FWIW, is *not* how Japanese or Chinese people learn their script...)
04:05:55 <zzo38> pikhq: Perhaps there is different way learning better for a different language
04:06:26 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, I'm just pointing that out because some idiots go "ZOMG Chinese does whole language stuff THATS GREAT"
04:06:38 <pikhq> (even though there's rather a lot of phonetic cues in there)
04:06:41 <alise> <calamari> I saw political sign saying all kids should learn to read by 3rd grade.. I couldn't believe my eyes ;; what age is third grade?????
04:06:42 <zzo38> pikhq: O, that is why
04:06:51 <Sgeo> Because this channel has, at least once, tried to convince me that I am not on the spectrum?
04:07:17 <alise> I don't see why the kindergarden you went to should change any of that.
04:07:18 <pikhq> alise: Uh... 8 to 9.
04:07:29 <alise> Probably everyone in here has at least a minor--
04:07:54 <pikhq> alise: "n the United States, third grade (called grade 3 in some regions) is a year of primary education. It is the third school year after kindergarten. Students are usually 8 - 9 years old, depending on when their birthday occurs." -- Wikipedia
04:08:44 <alise> People who can't read by the time they enter nursery -- or at least leave nursery to enter proper school -- are considered thick as all hell.
04:09:12 <Sgeo> Doesn't everyone get the Reading stuff at 8 years old?
04:09:17 <pikhq> alise: Is nursery the equivalent of kindergarten?
04:09:23 <alise> Sgeo: "the Reading stuff"?
04:09:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: ... What? What?
04:09:37 <alise> pikhq: Pretty much. I'm not sure whether it's leaving nursery or entering nursery when you should be able to read or else you're really fucking retarded.
04:09:37 <pikhq> alise: Ah, yes it is.
04:09:37 <cpressey> ISTR everyone being able to read, and probably write, in 1st grade.
04:09:45 <alise> Like, someone learning to read in nursery is probably considered fine.
04:09:47 <Sgeo> http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php
04:09:48 <alise> Although your parents probably suck.
04:09:51 <alise> For not teaching you sooner.
04:09:54 <cpressey> I'm assuming nursery == kindergarten.
04:11:32 <pikhq> alise: Kindergarten is not compulsory in all states.
04:11:57 <alise> I dunno if nursery is compulsory here.
04:12:01 <alise> But point is, wtf Arizona.
04:12:25 <pikhq> As such, there are many who arrive in first grade (that's about-equal to *year two* for you) not being able to read.
04:12:35 <alise> Ha, I have addictified cpressey with my quasi-opioid drug toast.
04:13:19 <alise> pikhq: I propose brutal eugenics.
04:13:22 <pikhq> "In language first graders are taught the fundamentals of literacy, including reading sentences, writing very simple statements and mastery of the alphabet, building on what the students have learned in kindergarten or other forms of pre-school (although because first grade is the first compulsory level of education in many U.S. states, the level of literacy in incoming students can vary widely)." -- Wikipedia.
04:13:34 <alise> Sure, it'll be utter fascism for a few generations, but it's not like it'll be any worse than your current political climate.
04:13:36 <pikhq> Yes, the *fucking alphabet*.
04:13:41 <alise> And then you can get some actual shit done.
04:13:45 <pikhq> *Six and seven year olds*.
04:14:44 <pikhq> Along with such concepts as "a clock" or "a calendar" or "money".
04:15:01 <alise> I hate your country.
04:15:05 <alise> And not for your freedom, either.
04:15:18 <pikhq> I get the feeling this was designed assuming that parents would never interact with their crotch-fruit.
04:15:41 <alise> Crotch-fruit is the most horrific term I have ever heard.
04:17:49 <pikhq> alise: How does primary-school math education go there?
04:19:00 <alise> Uhh... in a way that I utterly cannot remember. Ask Wikipedia.
04:19:13 <pikhq> It doesn't detail.
04:20:25 <Sgeo> alise, have you already read Profession, so I can spoil it?
04:21:32 <pikhq> "In the United States, in mathematics, fourth graders are usually taught how to add and subtract common fractions and decimals. Long division is also generally introduced here, and addition, subtraction, and multiplication of whole numbers is extended to larger numbers."
04:21:44 <Sgeo> I remember, the day we were to learn multiplication
04:21:51 <Sgeo> I had watched some tapes on arithmatic
04:21:55 <alise> Sgeo: Of ... integers?
04:22:01 <Sgeo> And I was convinced that a*b != b*a
04:22:12 <pikhq> alise: Yes, of naturals.
04:22:12 <Sgeo> I think I've said this before
04:22:26 <cpressey> I remember long division! 4th grade sounds right. I still do it sometimes.
04:22:38 <zzo38> Why were you convinced that a*b != b*a ?
04:22:42 <oerjan> Sgeo: this is clear proof of the matrix
04:23:12 <Sgeo> zzo38, it made no sense that 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 4 + 4 sort of thing should always work
04:23:41 <Sgeo> I've mentioned this in here before
04:23:52 <Sgeo> I remember once, in 6th grade
04:24:14 <Sgeo> Convincing myself that 2/0 = 4/0 but not 3/0. I think because 2/0 * 2/2 = 4/0
04:24:23 <Sgeo> But then how did 1/0 interact with stuff
04:24:26 <cpressey> < oerjan> (mind you i don't hold a degree in CS either :D)
04:24:31 <Sgeo> I ended up crying over this
04:24:38 <alise> so basically Sgeo has always been a crank mathematician at heart
04:24:40 <Sgeo> (I was a bit of a crybaby)
04:24:43 <cpressey> oerjan: No, clearly your degree was in Punning.
04:24:43 <alise> ...ok, maybe you are autistic
04:25:08 <alise> Admittedly, Dot Action has driven me near tears these past few days, but I think that is intentional on the part of its creator.
04:25:10 <Sgeo> Or my memory may be wrong :/
04:25:17 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes you did mention about 2/0 = 4/0 but not 3/0, before.
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04:26:19 <oerjan> Punning should so have been a city in china
04:27:22 <cpressey> There once was a man from near Punning, who had an idea oh-so cunning
04:27:57 <cpressey> Limericks are going TOO FAR, cpressey
04:28:11 <oerjan> especially when you don't manage to make them scan
04:28:46 <oerjan> or is "idea" two syllables
04:29:18 <oerjan> not that it scans _well_ in any case
04:29:40 <Sgeo> ANnoying: Having to explain to an adult why x/0 is generally not considered to work before explaining how I think I'm getting it to work
04:29:40 <alise> There once was a man from near Punning
04:29:41 <alise> Who had an idea oh-so cunning
04:29:41 <alise> Waking the next day
04:29:41 <alise> He found the neighbour's wife stunning.
04:29:44 <alise> I couldn't come up with the last line
04:29:51 <alise> so I made up something random instead
04:30:53 <cpressey> oerjan: Um... the "a" in "idea" just sort of floats there non-disruptively in the meter, for my ears. But I can see how it might not technically fit
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04:40:32 <madbr> afaik "idea" isn't germanic native
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04:43:19 <Sgeo> So close to finishing stage 32
04:45:17 <oerjan> madbr: afaik it's greek
04:49:10 <Sgeo> Just got the last green dot on 32 and died
04:50:07 <cpressey> No flash = No Dot Action 2. :(
04:50:10 <Sgeo> The fun thing is that the part that looks hardest is incredibly easy
04:51:37 <pikhq> madbr: Yeah, but this is English.
04:51:44 <pikhq> madbr: We despise native words.
04:51:47 <alise> cpressey: And thus no purpose in life.
04:52:26 <pikhq> madbr: To the point of having a non-native *pronoun*.
04:54:43 <pikhq> "they" is from Old Norse, rather than Old English.
04:57:03 <Sgeo> 33 was annoying
04:57:56 <Sgeo> Is 34 supposed to be doable?
05:01:30 <pikhq> Nope, that's from Old English.
05:01:40 <pikhq> Obvious cognate with Old Norse, though.
05:13:18 <Sgeo> alise, I see absolutely no way to travel down the staircase of 34
05:13:38 <alise> Sgeo: Uhh, screenshot me up. I forget.
05:13:59 <Sgeo> It's annoying to post screenshots
05:14:17 <Sgeo> ...I know about it
05:14:22 <Sgeo> It's what's before that's annoying
05:14:26 <Sgeo> Remember, I'm on Windows
05:14:48 <alise> Fine, I'll do all the work for you as well as telling you how to do it.
05:15:11 <Sgeo> No, I want a screenshot program that automatically uploads to imgur
05:15:58 <alise> Sgeo: another tip: Higher is better.
05:16:06 <alise> Another tip: Control is unnecessary.
05:16:24 <Sgeo> I kind of revealed that a bunch of people from another channel are the new people in #falcon
05:16:25 <pikhq> Huh. "Modern Indo-European".
05:16:31 <Sgeo> Now one person's asking me from where
05:16:40 <Sgeo> Don't know if I should reveal it or not
05:16:54 <pikhq> Start with reconstructed Proto-Indo-European, specify enough of it to make it an actual language.
05:16:54 <Sgeo> If I jump before the staircase, I die
05:16:55 <alise> We don't need those people :P
05:16:58 <alise> Sgeo: So don't jump.
05:17:16 <Sgeo> If I don't jump, I die
05:17:24 <Sgeo> Unless maybe if I start on that elevated thingy and
05:18:39 <Sgeo> Now I died on that lone block
05:21:06 <Sgeo> Need to kill old habits
05:21:50 <Sgeo> C L E A R ! ! !
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07:08:58 <Sgeo> 105 requires a bit of thought
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07:13:43 <cpressey> Sgeo: I just tried writing my first Falcon program, and it doesn't even *work*.
07:14:17 <cpressey> This language is fascinatingly bad.
07:14:30 <Sgeo> Oh, Falcon, not Factor
07:15:18 <cpressey> http://www.falconpl.org/index.ftd?page_id=sitewiki&prj_id=_falcon_site&sid=wiki&pwid=Code+Snippets&wid=snippet%3Apicker <-- the first program there, what would you expect it to output? 89, maybe?
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07:29:54 <zzo38> I don't know how well it works, or how good it is.
07:30:55 <zzo38> But it does have some good features, such as metacompilation and prototype OOP.
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07:40:10 <zzo38> I would probably use a different program language
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07:57:16 <Nomz> Sum 1 here ?????
07:57:50 <Nomz> I didn't get n e reply frmm n e 1
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09:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> 18:44:14 <oerjan> clearly INTERCAL is no match for haskell's reverse state monad ← I must see this.
09:43:23 <Phantom_Hoover> 19:59:54 <alise> pikhq: Uh, around the same age. ← My school did it at around 11 or 12 for the top set, although it was pretty trivial.
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09:59:40 <Phantom_Hoover> "Falcon is a small, fast and powerful embeddable programming language."
09:59:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently they are using some odd definition of "small".
10:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> They're trying to make a language bigger than Common Lisp!
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10:17:27 <Vorpal> annoying, it seems I have constructive interference of the noise from my computer and my monitor. Causing a very annoying high pitched tone exactly where it is most comfortable to sit. Moving head a few cm in any direction removes the noise. Turning off monitor removes it. But it isn't there when listening close to the monitor when it is turned on.
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12:04:00 <wareya> I have come to the conclusion that brainfuck is not an esoteric language; it is well known and somewhat popular. The only thing that can define it as esoteric, as of now, is its being of a turing tarpit. However, many non-esoteric languages are also turing tarpits - such as BASIC, Bash, and PHP.
12:19:51 <nooga> PHP is turing tarpit??
12:23:13 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_UNIX-HATERS_Handbook
12:23:25 <nooga> lol, it was almost like Windows for them
12:24:39 <wareya> "3 Documentation? What Documentation?"
12:24:57 <nooga> i can assign almost every chapter to recent MS Windows systems
12:25:16 <wareya> Windows XP is still my favorite OS
12:25:45 <wareya> aside from the lack of inter-process comunication, and driver hell, I haven't had a single problem with the OS itself.
12:26:05 <wareya> Not counting the lack of DX10/11.
12:26:08 <nooga> i also used it for a long time
12:26:28 <wareya> Also not counting the awful Luna theme.
12:26:28 <nooga> but then my computers had more cores and RAM than XP can handle
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12:26:53 <wareya> I ran it on a 2 ghz machien with 2 GB RAM, and an ati x1500.
12:29:14 * Phantom_Hoover decides he hates the UHH purely on the basis of its front cover.
12:29:40 <wareya> Good points aren't something that you throw away because of their tone and source.
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15:04:57 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: then it was that the text was indeed in english.
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15:26:25 * Phantom_Hoover is now of the opinion that Turkish Star Wars is far funnier than Plan 9.
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15:34:58 <zzo38> Now I have written a "munching squares" program for BytePusher.
15:51:06 <zzo38> It is much shorter than the other two programs.
15:51:43 <zzo38> This program is 3073 bytes long. The scrolling logo is 100608 bytes long. The keyboard test is 130558 bytes long.
15:52:52 <zzo38> See the screenshot on the wiki page for BytePusher
16:04:17 <zzo38> (There is a article about munching squares on Wikipedia)
16:04:18 <cpressey> 09:53 < OmniMancer> from what I read in the logs these people have been locked in a closet with a small set of very pure langauges all their lives and know nothing of the real world
16:04:59 <alise> cpressey: from #falcon?
16:05:16 <alise> Is jonnymind there?
16:05:22 <alise> Darn, yes. So he can ban me.
16:05:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: has the discussion been relatively civil?
16:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, jonnymind wasn't there until just before I left.
16:06:24 <alise> cpressey: has it been?
16:07:05 <Phantom_Hoover> OmniMancer was exasperated, but that was the extent of it.
16:09:30 <zzo38> Example of PUSHEM code: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/Munching_Squares.pushem
16:10:18 <alise> cpressey: Tell me what the replies are :-)
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16:10:30 <alise> zzo38: that's cool
16:11:34 <zzo38> alise: Can you understand this code?
16:11:46 <alise> zzo38: no, but i haven't tried
16:13:25 <zzo38> Why don't you try?
16:14:58 <alise> i might another time
16:19:58 <alise> Let's leave those retards alone. :D
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17:00:59 <alise> In 1996, Forbes went to work for Microsoft,[1] and Microsoft's cabinet archiver was enhanced to include the LZX compression method. Improvements included a variable search window size; Amiga LZX was fixed to 64kB, Microsoft LZX could range on powers of two between 32 and 2048 kilobytes. A special preprocessor was added to detect Intel 80x86 "CALL" instructions, converting their operands from relative addressing to absolute addressing, thus calls to the sam
17:00:59 <alise> e location resulted in repeated strings that the compressor could match, improving compression of 80x86 binary code.
17:04:53 <cpressey> alise: Well, I'm out of there, now. I kept it civil.
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17:25:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, I just want to define the nats as a coinductive stream!
17:27:29 <alise> Doesn't sound hard.
17:28:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> I tried defining stream and smap appropriately, then defining the nats as cons 0 (smap S nats), but that violates one of the restrictions.
17:30:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> I suspect it's that smap isn't a constructor of stream, but I might be wrong.
17:34:47 <alise> I suggest defining your own types.
17:34:50 <alise> That usually works.
17:35:00 <alise> Just do it manually.
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17:38:29 <alise> write your own corecursive thing directly
17:38:32 <alise> rather than calling smap
17:44:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, you presumably need to use a corecursive function to map S on a stream, and then we're back at square 1.
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17:54:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Uh, argument.
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17:58:07 <alise> Addition where you pack the two together.
17:58:40 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: Do you mean having type C -> C but *not* type R -> R or Z -> Z ?
17:58:40 <alise> But, uh, conjugate.
17:59:23 <Sgeo> I do now. And I did once.
17:59:24 <cpressey> It's my fault for not Blackboard Bold'ing it.
17:59:53 <Sgeo> But what would be interesting about having... actually, no
17:59:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, it should have interesting properties when an image is transformed with it.
18:00:02 <Sgeo> R->R but not Z->Z would also be interesting
18:00:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Not really.
18:00:21 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, multiply by i?
18:00:36 <Sgeo> that's not _that_ interesting
18:00:42 <Sgeo> Just rotation, I think
18:01:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: e^x?
18:01:58 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, pics?
18:02:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: What does e^x produce for images?
18:03:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, SRoMG does this a lot, and I'm wondering what else can be tried.
18:04:13 <alise> Please stop using that incomprehensible abbreviation.
18:04:56 <cpressey> Square Root of Minus Garfield?
18:04:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> But typing "Square Root of Minus Garfield" goes contrary to my laziness!
18:05:18 <alise> Arcsin(Garfield) is awesome
18:05:32 <alise> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=433
18:05:35 <alise> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=473
18:05:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: i^x? :PPP
18:06:39 <alise> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=415 log. Awesome!
18:06:56 <alise> (http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=400 exp)
18:07:23 <alise> Wow, there's 1 Over Garfield.
18:07:23 * Phantom_Hoover_ quite liked Garfield^-1 centred on Garfield's thought bubble.
18:07:26 <alise> And it is http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=407
18:07:29 <alise> FUCKING DISTURBING
18:08:13 <alise> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=388
18:08:21 <cpressey> NOT SURE WHAT TO MAKE OF THIS CRAZY
18:08:39 <alise> "Complex little creatures, aren't they?" http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=156
18:08:53 <alise> Wow. Cube root is beautiful. http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=380
18:09:40 <Sgeo> You could satarize these strips with a 1 + Garfield
18:10:22 <alise> Firstly, not a word.
18:10:30 <alise> Secondly, it's already a loving parody of Garfield Minus Garfield.
18:10:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=368
18:11:03 <alise> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=351 fffff
18:12:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: But it is inspired by, at least.
18:12:04 <Sgeo> alise, now read through all the Mezzacotta strips
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18:14:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Link me to the FFT?
18:16:28 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=26 polar cöordinate transformed.
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18:21:42 <Sgeo> My right ear's working again!
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18:24:48 <nooga> i use Y Windowing System
18:27:07 <Sgeo> Wait. I can say "asshole" on Fark?
18:28:33 <alise> You can say asshole any time.
18:28:36 <alise> nooga: because X is awful
18:28:52 <cpressey> ais523: My idea about while loops an TCL (I don't know if you recall it; doesn't really matter) did not turn out to be interesting,
18:29:39 <cpressey> Take the language of while programs. Add some kind of homoiconicity so that you can build programs from inside it. Enforce the rule that inside each while loop, the program must re-define the meaning of "while".
18:29:46 <Sgeo> alise, I can't say "fuck" on Fark
18:29:49 <Sgeo> It turns it to "Fark"
18:30:02 <alise> ais523: you don't what?
18:30:07 <alise> Sgeo: Fark is utter crap, anyway.
18:30:30 <cpressey> alise: pr. don't recall my offhand remark about my silly idea
18:30:35 <ais523> alise: I don't remember cpressey's idea about while loops and TCL
18:30:54 <cpressey> Anyway, there it is, if anyone wants it.
18:31:12 <cpressey> alise: Yes. Someone was answering someone else's question about TCL here at the time.
18:31:28 <cpressey> Oh, I think ais523 was playing with expect, that's why.
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18:32:41 <nooga> alise: that's true
18:32:57 <nooga> i was wondering if there's something that could replace X in linux
18:33:06 <nooga> but i guess there isn't
18:33:55 <fizzie> You can run GTK+ stuff in DirectFB, that's sort of replacing X, but I don't know why anyone would.
18:34:29 <nooga> let's wait for open Aqua reimplementation
18:35:42 <alise> that you care about
18:36:02 <alise> and besides, it's just Display Postscript
18:36:29 <alise> someone is working on some X-compatible replacement minimal thing i think
18:36:32 <alise> dunno if it's any good
18:36:36 <Sgeo> Squeak and Pharo have some framebuffer thingy
18:36:44 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server)
18:37:05 * cpressey just realized that means Macs are running a crippled monster forthoid in their display systems.
18:37:14 <alise> dunno if it's actually X-compatible
18:37:22 <alise> cpressey: Nothin' wrong with PDF.
18:37:28 <alise> PostScript is cool, and PDF is just non-TC binary PostScript.
18:37:47 <alise> But not a crippled monster :P
18:38:03 <Sgeo> Is Factor a forthoid?
18:38:09 <alise> Besides, you used to be able to screenshot to PDF and windows were layers and shit.
18:38:11 <fizzie> There's also XDirectFB, which can put X windows into a DirectFB screen. (Don't know how compatible that is either.)
18:38:16 <alise> And it would scale (although a lot of graphics are bitmaps)
18:38:21 <alise> Dunno if you still can
18:38:25 <alise> (It used to be the default screenshot format)
18:38:31 <cpressey> Well. non-TC <-> crippled. Monster, referring to some of the interestingness that PS layered in.
18:39:22 <cpressey> Sgeo: I thought that's obvious? Unless you get pedantic.
18:39:54 <alise> Factor is a Joyoid.
18:39:56 <Sgeo> So all concatenative languages are "forthoids"? What's the point of the term "forthoid" then
18:40:07 <alise> It was more of a Forthoid to begin with.
18:40:22 <alise> But now with quotations and the like it's an imperative Joy, rather than a functional Forth.
18:41:00 * cpressey borrows oerjan's palm frond and swats Phantom_Hoover_ -----######
18:41:03 <alise> Of course non-TC <-> crippled
18:41:07 <alise> And HAHAHA @ cpressey being practical
18:41:19 <zzo38> Make a music scale (4/8,5/8,6/8,7/8,8/8)
18:41:41 <zzo38> Or, make a scale (3/6,4/6,5/6,6/6)
18:41:54 <alise> If cpressey invented Befunge-93 today, it wouldn't have a defined ASCII representation, it would be based on Minkowski space, it would have only 7 instructions, and the playfield would be 80 x infinity for some mathematical reason.
18:42:05 <alise> Or rather, the defined ASCII representation would be crazy and probably 1D.
18:42:15 <alise> At least, that's what the little copy of cpressey in my head would do.
18:43:39 <alise> cpressey: And it would only be arguably computable. :P
18:44:18 <cpressey> Its semantics would certainly not depend so unspeakably on those of C, that's for sure.
18:44:50 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: Should I even ask what "Practical" with a capital P means to you?
18:45:06 <cpressey> Cuz that's, uh, a bit creepy to see.
18:45:28 <cpressey> Like identifying oneself as a Bright, or something.
18:46:44 <nooga> if i don't come back after reboot that means i borked my partition table
18:46:50 <alise> Hmm, ByteByteJump is {**(pc+1) = **pc; pc = *(pc+2)}. Is {**(pc+1) = **pc; pc = **pc} TC?
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18:49:50 <alise> pc is program counter, of course.
18:50:05 <alise> cpressey: See, if I want to compete with BytePusher, I have to come up with my own, totally more awesome OISC.
18:50:13 <alise> And that has only two operands, making it INSTANTLY SUPERIOR.
18:50:48 <cpressey> I think it is, because I think you can encode SMETANA in it, but my brain isn't really working
18:51:45 <cpressey> Shows you how good I am at thi
18:52:29 <cpressey> Oh btw, that P != NP proof was debunked, wasn't it?
18:52:52 <alise> An August 2010 claim by Vinay Deolalikar, a researcher at HP Labs, received heavy Internet and press attention after being initially described as "seem[ing] to be a relatively serious attempt" by two leading specialists. The proof has been reviewed publicly by academics,[22] and it was found to contain irreparable conceptual-level errors as well as a number of concrete errors and flaws.[23]
18:53:17 <cpressey> Irreparable conceptual errors!
18:55:36 * Phantom_Hoover_ wonders if you can nicely define division using coinductive nats in Coq.
18:55:49 <alise> I think {**pc = **(pc+1); pc = **(pc+1)} is a better instruction.
18:55:52 * alise codes up a VM to play with it
18:57:34 <alise> Hmm, an infinite loop is...
18:57:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> So that infinity is S infinity, and hence div n 0 = infinity.
18:58:59 <alise> 64K of RAM should be enough for everyone
18:59:49 <zzo38> alise: It depend what you do
19:00:03 <zzo38> For a one instruction computer, it might not be enough for large programs
19:01:13 <alise> Hey, ByteByteJump has a major flaw.
19:01:22 <alise> The program counter is not exposed in memory.
19:02:18 <zzo38> alise: Is that a flaw? I programmed a BytePusher program, with conditional jumps
19:02:55 <zzo38> Since it has no calculation built-in, you have to use tables, and that makes my "munching squares" program size 3K (plus one byte).
19:03:21 <alise> Is {*pc = m[*pc] = m[*pc + 1]} valid C?
19:03:25 <alise> That assignment to *pc makes me think not.
19:03:39 <ais523> alise: yes, although not valid portable C
19:03:53 <ais523> it's conforming C because I know of at least one C compiler that accepts it, given an appopriate definition for PC
19:03:59 <ais523> and on which an appropriate definition is actually possible
19:04:16 <zzo38> The question, is, is it portable and properly defined?
19:04:16 <ais523> alise: a program can contain UB and be conforming
19:04:21 <zzo38> Of course it is a valid C code, though
19:04:36 <ais523> "conforming C" means "accepted by at least one C compiler", according to the standard
19:04:42 <zzo38> Any proper C compiler should compile it (as long as you put the semicolon in where it belongs)
19:04:52 <ais523> so you can just choose an arbitrary compiler that happens to define the particular UB you're using
19:04:55 <Vorpal> ais523, sure about that? I thought it meant following standard
19:04:59 <ais523> "strictly conforming" is what it needs to be accepted by all
19:05:16 <Vorpal> ais523, what if all happens to implement that UB the same way?
19:05:35 <Vorpal> ais523, true, but would it be strictly conforming then?
19:06:06 <ais523> as it's defined as "conforming + no UB, unspecified behaviour never matters, implementation-defined behaviour never matters"
19:06:52 <Vorpal> ais523, hm it could still end up strange if _all_ implementations misimplements a given part
19:07:03 <Vorpal> which means there is no compiler accepting the program
19:07:03 <ais523> then there are no implementatiosn
19:07:28 <ais523> Vorpal: you might be interesting to know that the C standard doesn't define behaviour of the programs output by a compiler
19:07:32 <Vorpal> ais523, and no program could ever be conforming
19:07:35 <alise> fread(x, N, ...) will always read N if the stream has at least N bytes in it, right?
19:07:37 <ais523> a compiler can just not produce an executable and still be strictly conforming
19:08:10 <ais523> alise: no, it can return a lower value if there will eventually be N bytes in the stream but they can't be retrieved immediately for some reason
19:08:36 <alise> ais523: this is a file
19:08:50 <ais523> the most common reason by far is network timeouts (say NFS), but there are others
19:09:05 <alise> but on a regular, local file?
19:09:08 <alise> this is just a quick hack, so
19:09:21 <ais523> for a quick hack, as long as your OS isn't doing some sort of crazy buffering you'll befine
19:09:36 <Vorpal> ais523, that depend on mount options for the nfs fs in question
19:09:51 <ais523> I mean, I reimplemented awk in about 10 lines for a quick hack this mornign
19:10:09 <ais523> of course it wouldn't work for general awk files, but it's good enough for processing autoconf output on a system that doesn't have awk
19:10:15 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm pretty sure (due to having used them) that there are mount options for nfs that makes it timeout instead of stall forever
19:10:39 <ais523> Vorpal: I tend to think in terms of "x can do that" rather than "x does do that"
19:11:04 <alise> http://pastie.org/1138253.txt?key=4fz7yhgu7qu0jczaxsla ;; that's the kind of instruction loop I like.
19:11:09 <ais523> for C programming, you know "under circumstances x, y can go wrong" and don't care about knowing the exact details of x
19:12:06 <Vorpal> things can go strange for sshfs (fuse based) too. If a file is open it won't time out and unmount if network is lost. Sometimes.
19:12:45 <alise> http://pastie.org/1138253.txt?key=4fz7yhgu7qu0jczaxsla
19:12:46 <alise> http://pastie.org/1138256.txt
19:12:54 <alise> the second of these is likely to be more efficient, right?
19:13:24 <ais523> Vorpal: reading from a network socket, if read's argument is larger than the packet size then it nearly always returns one packet rather than the amount you specified
19:13:27 <ais523> thus you have read returning low then
19:14:26 <ais523> you can't read EOF from an unclosed network socket, unless there's an error
19:14:44 <Vorpal> well obviously, I meant for streams and standard input
19:15:01 <Vorpal> ais523, in the standard input case you could get a "fake" EOF so to speak, from ctrl-d
19:15:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: I didn't write it, dude, gcc and clang did.
19:15:33 <Vorpal> alise, best way to find out
19:16:51 <ais523> the "mov %edx, %edx" seems to do nothing
19:17:07 <ais523> I mean, that sort of thing is sometimes useful to set flags, but it doesn't seem to actually look at the flags afterwards
19:17:36 <ais523> unless the m() refers to a flag; I don't understand the syntax
19:18:26 <fizzie> mov doesn't set flags anyway.
19:18:31 <Vorpal> ais523, I presume m is a variable from elsewhere
19:18:36 <alise> with -Os it omits that instruction
19:18:37 <Vorpal> that is the only way that makes sense
19:18:47 <alise> http://pastie.org/1138256.txt
19:18:49 <alise> is obviously better, I think
19:18:53 <ais523> fizzie: ah, am I muddling x86 with other asms?
19:19:03 <ais523> in 6502, it sets the zero flag, although not the others
19:19:06 <alise> m is a variable from elsewhere
19:19:25 <alise> http://pastie.org/1138256.txt in clang's output it is just:
19:19:34 <alise> word m[ram_words];
19:19:58 <alise> word m[ram_words] = {load_addr};
19:20:01 <alise> would this initialise the rest to 0?
19:20:17 <Vorpal> alise, that looks like llvm asm
19:20:41 <alise> that's just my #define for int32_t
19:20:46 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover_: your interrobangs annoy me so much I just set my IRC client to replace interrobangs with normal question marks
19:20:49 <Vorpal> <alise> http://pastie.org/1138256.txt in clang's output it is just:
19:20:49 <Vorpal> <alise> word m[ram_words];
19:21:17 <Vorpal> alise, well it doesn't make sense
19:21:25 <alise> i'm not talking to you
19:21:33 <Vorpal> still doesn't make sense though
19:21:49 <alise> hmm actually it is m:
19:22:02 <Vorpal> ais523, why do the interrobangs annoy you?
19:22:21 <ais523> because it's very rarely used correctly
19:22:37 <Vorpal> ais523, it is used to replace !? and/or ?! afaik?
19:22:38 <ais523> it wasn't then, really, for instance
19:22:41 <fizzie> ais523: I think the usual thing to do is to set flags on arithmetics, not movs, but I really haven't made a survey on this. (My handy single-page messy 6502 instruction chart says LDA/LDX/LDY set both N and Z.)
19:22:47 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, and I dislike the punctuation generally
19:23:12 <Vorpal> ais523, well, he could just switch to use !? or !? then. Are you going to filter that as well?
19:23:16 <ais523> exclamations are generally annoying
19:23:32 <ais523> I mean, if someone came in here and ended all their sentences with !, we'd get annoyed quickly
19:23:33 <alise> ais523: No they're not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:23:39 <ais523> an interrobang is just another sort of exclamation
19:23:40 <alise> Would we! I don't think we would!
19:23:45 <alise> I think we would like it!
19:24:03 <ais523> alise: it's getting on my nerves already...
19:24:19 <alise> Okay, I'll stop now.
19:24:33 <Vorpal> ais523, yes. But there are reasons to use it. Like: "wow, some quick calculation shows that that the probability for that coincidence is 1 of 10^23!" or similar
19:24:52 <ais523> no, that implies 10 to the 23 factorial to me
19:27:03 <alise> Cool, the VM uses 100% of a CPU for its infinite loop.
19:29:46 <alise> Gah, how can it segfault?
19:29:52 <alise> m[m[0]] = x = m[m[0] + 1];
19:29:55 <alise> It's all unsigned.
19:29:59 <alise> Oh wait, I said a 16-bit machine. Heh.
19:30:13 <alise> And coded my thing wrong.
19:32:17 <alise> Blah, cpressey, you implement this machine.
19:34:10 <alise> And tell me why chr(x&256) + chr(x>>8) doesn't work.
19:34:37 <alise> & 255 it should be!
19:35:02 <alise> Wait, this depends on endianness.
19:35:16 <alise> cpressey: RELIEVE THE PAIN
19:35:27 * Sgeo puts alise to sleep
19:35:28 <cpressey> Sorry, was away, just came back.
19:35:30 <alise> cpressey: BUT IT'S A LOW-LEVEL VM MACHINE THING
19:35:41 <Sgeo> Use Forth for low-level stuff!
19:36:11 <cpressey> Haskell first. THEN C. That's my opinion, anyway, not that I always follow it.
19:37:14 <alise> cpressey: Okay. Do it in Haskell then.
19:39:28 <Sgeo> Look at his smallness
19:39:33 <Sgeo> Compared to my tallness
19:39:37 <Sgeo> My porcelain doll-ness
19:39:45 <Sgeo> My port-in-a-squall-ness
19:39:48 <cpressey> < ais523> I mean, I reimplemented awk in about 10 lines for a quick hack this mornign
19:40:07 <ais523> but I cheated and used a2p
19:40:17 <Sgeo> My Kids-in-the-Hall-ness / My Pink-Floyd's-"The-Wall"-ness / My just all in all-ness
19:40:21 <ais523> the other lines were working around bugs in a2p
19:40:24 <Sgeo> My wonderful me-ness
19:40:28 <Sgeo> My hammer the pe---
19:40:50 <Sgeo> Sorry about spamminess
19:42:16 <Vorpal> <ais523> no, that implies 10 to the 23 factorial to me <-- hm?
19:42:48 <Vorpal> ais523, "1 out of 10^23" means "pretty unlikely" to me in that context
19:43:18 <alise> Vorpal demonstrates new heights of reading comprehension.
19:43:23 <alise> He could get a Ph.D. in it at this rate.
19:43:59 <cpressey> Sgeo: You are forgiven. But only if you are drunk.
19:44:27 <cpressey> OK, I'll let "tired" go. THIS time.
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19:45:22 <Vorpal> alise, oh right, now I get what he meant
19:45:34 <Vorpal> anyway, my point was "!" is useful in some cases
19:45:36 <cpressey> (for something as simple and array-y as this)
19:45:52 <fizzie> Yes, it's useful if you want to speak about fractionals.
19:45:57 <Vorpal> I should make an esolang that uses interrobang in it's syntax...
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19:46:35 <fizzie> Remember to make it do some sort of combination of ? and !.
19:46:57 <Sgeo> Please don't make it isomorphic (if that's the term) to BF
19:47:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, or maybe it should be like intercals over-strike stuff
19:47:26 <alise> m[m[0]] = x = m[m[0] + 1];
19:47:34 <alise> 16-bit values, full 16-bit memory
19:47:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, as in either the unicode code point, or !<backspace>? are allowed
19:47:40 <alise> it loads a raw memory image
19:47:43 <alise> (two bytes to the value)
19:47:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, like it does for .<backspace>"
19:47:50 <alise> initial m[0] is assigned by the memory file
19:48:13 <alise> a program that takes a bunch of integers separated by whitespace and spits out a \0-padded memory image plus the first value being "1" to point to the first number entered would be cool too
19:48:19 <alise> (to pave the way for an assembler)
19:48:51 <alise> Vorpal: ITRALCEN or whatever it was called was going to use interrobang for its metaevaluation stuff.
19:48:58 <alise> ^scramble INTERCAL
19:49:19 <alise> of course, I never actually ended up doing it.
19:49:28 <alise> almost all the INTERCAL language was implemented using it
19:49:31 <Vorpal> alise, ah, right, it was you who made the idea up
19:49:46 <alise> it was going to accept ?<backspace>! too
19:49:48 <cpressey> alise: http://pastie.org/1138303
19:50:02 <alise> cpressey: Well /that/ bit is the easy part.
19:50:31 -!- nooga has joined.
19:50:43 <nooga> i'm having wild problems with restoring ext3 partition
19:50:54 <cpressey> Vorpal: Haskell lost. Then Python lost.
19:51:07 <cpressey> Shoulda done it in Falcon or R!
19:51:09 -!- derdon has joined.
19:51:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, and the problem you are trying to solve is?
19:51:25 <nooga> lua is nice, besides the syntax
19:51:33 <alise> Vorpal is doing a great imitation of ignoring me while proving he isn't
19:51:38 <nooga> it looks like pascalified javascript
19:52:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: Damn, I would have to look up how they do arrays.
19:52:44 <Vorpal> alise, um? am I ignoring you?
19:52:56 <cpressey> I picked Lua because I knew I could just start using m as if it was an array, and it would be.
19:53:27 <alise> Vorpal: No, but you asked what cpressey was doing just after I FORCED him to do it. (Well, not exactly that.)
19:54:10 <Vorpal> alise, I was wondering what the goal of the program was. That function didn't look like it was a complete program to me
19:54:34 <alise> It's called an esolang.
19:54:37 <cpressey> Vorpal: It's alise's putative successor to ByteByteJump.
19:54:40 <fizzie> The definedness of "m[m[0]] = x = m[m[0] + 1];" looks unclear, but perhaps this was already spoken about (I'm not really following the discussion here).
19:54:45 <alise> Although his program is, uh, incomplete.
19:54:51 <alise> fizzie: Huh, surely /that/'s ok?
19:55:00 <fizzie> If m[0] == 0, especially.
19:55:00 <alise> Wait, why would it not be?
19:55:10 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. No input or output of any kind. Pretty useless as it is. Which is why I asked
19:55:27 <alise> Vorpal: It's a reference implementation.
19:55:45 <cpressey> I coded the /interesting/ part of the semantics.
19:55:49 <alise> I'm basically trying to usurp BytePusher in awesomeness.
19:56:23 <alise> A B means "*A = *B; jump to address B"
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19:57:52 <Vorpal> alise, is there any IO or such (possibly by using memory mapped IO registers or similar)?
19:58:17 <alise> Vorpal: In a computer, yes. In the architecture, no.
19:58:25 <alise> Oh, and memory location 0 is the program counter, of course.
19:58:42 <alise> Jumping to 0 is *quite* fun, in the "HOW DOES THIS WORK" sense.
19:58:48 <Vorpal> alise, and this is not a computerish implementation?
19:58:51 <alise> The first operand of your first instruction becomes a second one.
19:58:55 <alise> Vorpal: It's just the basis for one.
19:59:12 <alise> The actual computer will be like BytePusher but more awesome. A proper sound chip rather than just raw PCM.
19:59:19 <alise> Synthesiser, that is.
19:59:26 <alise> All done memory-mapped, naturally.
19:59:31 <Vorpal> alise, does the architecture reserve some specific memory addresses for such usage? To prevent a situation where different implementations put them in completely different areas
19:59:54 <alise> No. ARM and Z80 don't tell you what the computer should look like either.
20:00:03 <alise> They're ISAs; the rest is up to the computer architecture.
20:00:23 <Vorpal> hm. Are you going to define such an architecture as well?
20:00:38 <fizzie> alise: I'm not even sure about the "m[m[0]] = x;" part. There's no additional sequence points, and if m[0] == 0, you have a write to m[0], and a read from m[0], and you're only allowed to read the previous value "only to determine the value to be stored", which doesn't seem to be the case here. I don't think there's any rule that'd let you apply any "but m[0] *must* be read before the m[m[0]] write can know where it's writing to"; but there's a horribly long th
20:00:39 <fizzie> read about these and related points in comp.lang.c.
20:00:43 <alise> <alise> The actual computer will be like BytePusher but more awesome. A proper sound chip rather than just raw PCM.
20:00:43 <alise> <alise> Synthesiser, that is.
20:00:43 <alise> <alise> All done memory-mapped, naturally.
20:00:44 <fizzie> (Adding the "= m[m[0]+1]" bit makes it even less clear, though.)
20:01:17 <alise> It's not a big deal, I can fix it.
20:01:27 <alise> Definitely want an in-memory PC though.
20:01:47 <alise> "0 X" is an unconditional jump to X. :-)
20:02:01 <alise> since *X gets put in the program counter, but then it gets set to X
20:02:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, in practise it seems tricky to be able to resolve the location of m[m[0]] before reading m[0]
20:02:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, well, that's you using logic again.
20:02:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, but with the = m[m[0]+1] it is harder to know
20:03:29 <alise> fizzie: m[m[0]] is just **m.
20:03:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, could have memory doing strange things like erasing m[m[0]] while reading m[m[0]+1]. For some sort of arcane memory
20:03:33 <alise> Which I'm pretty sure is valid, you know.
20:03:42 <alise> Which I guess is more iffy.
20:03:44 <Vorpal> flash? Though I doubt anyone uses that for main memory
20:03:51 <alise> But what if m is in 0? :-)
20:04:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, yeah, presumably NOR then
20:04:14 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:04:23 <Vorpal> cpressey, would be worse if NAND
20:04:27 <cpressey> And take a lot of power, relatively speaking
20:04:33 <Vorpal> in fact I can't see how NAND could even work for it
20:04:39 -!- derdon has joined.
20:06:03 <Vorpal> hm I wonder what type of microprocessor is used in a normal harddrive...
20:06:47 <Sgeo> Would Marilyn vos Savant be a good fit for this channel?
20:06:50 <Sgeo> Hypothetically?
20:07:17 -!- augur has joined.
20:08:00 <Vorpal> hm I think my desktop has at least 5 processor cores, considering CPU, GPU, two harddrives, one dvd and one sound card. GPU probably consists of more than one in reality
20:08:21 <alise> probably because of her surname :)
20:08:28 <Vorpal> (I know the sound card has a DSP, it's a SB Live 5.1 with that EMU10k DSP thingy)
20:09:11 <cpressey> Sgeo: ... are you *sure* you're not drunk?
20:09:28 <alise> Can she even program?
20:09:36 <Sgeo> Unless someone drugged me with alcohol...
20:09:40 <alise> Has she done anything other than popularising Monty Hall and other simple problems and, at one point, having a very high IQ?
20:09:41 <cpressey> "A few months after the announcement by Andrew Wiles that he had proved Fermat's Last Theorem, vos Savant published her book The World's Most Famous Math Problem in October 1993.[15] The book surveys the history of Fermat's last theorem as well as other mathematical mysteries. Controversy came from the book's criticism of Wiles' proof; vos Savant was accused of misunderstanding mathematical induction, proof by contradiction,
20:10:22 <Sgeo> Wait, was that the incorrect announcement, or the correct one?
20:10:29 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what about other drugs than alcohol then?
20:10:35 <cpressey> "Her assertion that Wiles' proof should be rejected for its use of non-Euclidean geometry was especially contested."
20:10:47 <Sgeo> Vorpal, other drugs wouldn't make me drunk
20:10:53 <alise> cpressey: hahaahahaha
20:11:05 <alise> Vorpal: no, this is definitely alcohol or nothing
20:11:17 <alise> although at this level Sgeo should be having trouble typing with accuracy
20:11:26 <alise> also, 1993 would be the original
20:11:29 <alise> but clearly her criticism is bullshit
20:11:53 <Sgeo> I remember when a girl IMed me with "I
20:12:11 <alise> <Sgeo> What if Marilyn von Savant is actually ALL OF US... man...
20:12:20 <alise> [universe changes]
20:12:27 <alise> <Sgeo> WHY ARE THE WALLS BREATHING I BLAME WHOEVER DEVELOPS ACTIVEWORLDS
20:12:37 <alise> [universe changes]
20:13:45 <Sgeo> alise, stage 101 is fun
20:13:50 <alise> Sgeo: stop cheating
20:13:54 <Vorpal> alise, yeah those are different drugs
20:14:04 <alise> Vorpal: CONGRATULATIONS YOU GOT THE JOKE
20:14:07 <fizzie> Oh, you've been dot-act-2-ing again?
20:14:10 <Sgeo> alise, is it cheating if the code is given in the instructions?
20:14:22 <alise> Sgeo: what instructions?
20:14:44 <Sgeo> Use Google Translate
20:15:00 <Sgeo> "The password "086-754" to enter, can play a bonus stage."
20:15:13 <alise> Complete 100 to get it
20:15:29 <alise> It's 101-108 for a reason! :|
20:15:32 <Vorpal> alise, but for all I know there could be some drug other than alcohol that gives similar symptoms. I mean, the phase-space of possible drugs is hardly small enough to be completely explored.
20:15:41 <fizzie> Gah, I can't recall how many stages I cleared; just that it was >90, <100.
20:15:44 <Sgeo> alise, when I type in the code, I don't see 1-100 in the list
20:15:58 <alise> Vorpal: afaik alcohol is fairly unique in its effects
20:16:04 <alise> Sgeo: yes, but they come after 100, obviously
20:16:08 <alise> fizzie: how do you do 55?
20:16:13 <alise> I cannot figure it out.
20:16:51 <Vorpal> alise, is it proven that no future drug could give similar effects? Maybe some mad scientist gave Sgeo a sample of a new drug to test it out on him!
20:17:04 <fizzie> alise: Do you have that 1-100 code somewhere? I don't think I can manage to do 1-54 to see 55 for you.
20:17:16 <alise> fizzie: http://jayisgames.com/archives/2007/04/dot_action_2.php#walkthrough
20:17:19 <alise> has codes for every level
20:17:32 <fizzie> At least I dug it out of the swf myself back then. :p
20:17:35 <cpressey> Alcohol is chemically simpler than most drugs. From what I understand, it does what it does because your brain is busy "digesting" it.
20:18:12 <cpressey> As opposed to, say, psychoactives which bind to various neural receptors.
20:19:15 <cpressey> So, fwiw, I think it would be hard to come up with an "alcohol-alike" drug
20:19:34 <fizzie> alise: IIRC, you just need to hit the middle one of the three green blocks on the left, and keep pressing right; it'll keep flipping around, but it'll bounce from the above/below greens so that you can catch the blue.
20:20:12 <Sgeo> 101 is really, really fun
20:20:38 <Vorpal> cpressey, btw I remember a funny video showing the effects of various drugs and driving. (not using actual drugs of course)
20:20:42 <fizzie> It might take a few tries to work out right, it's not exactly a very straight-forward thing.
20:20:44 <Vorpal> no clue where it was I saw it
20:20:50 <Sgeo> And the only bonus level that I solved, iirc
20:21:02 <alise> Vorpal: I know which one you're talking about.
20:21:05 <alise> Relatively amusing.
20:21:15 <Vorpal> alise, iirc lsd+driving was hilarious
20:21:22 <Vorpal> alise, hm I think the video was in German?
20:22:23 <alise> fizzie: which is the middle one?
20:23:46 <Sgeo> I _think_ I did 105
20:24:39 <Vorpal> alise, cpressey: found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHDeMMzkHrI
20:25:01 <Sgeo> 107 is just a race against the clock
20:25:33 <fizzie> "More specifically, ethanol acts in the central nervous system by binding to the GABA-A receptor, increasing the effects of the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA (i.e. it is a positive allosteric modulator)[68]."
20:26:30 <nooga> lsd+driving is suicide
20:26:48 <Sgeo> 108 is a tricky race against thge clock
20:27:08 <Vorpal> nooga, most likely every one of those is suicide
20:27:31 <nooga> marijuana is harmless i think
20:27:37 <nooga> when it comes to driving
20:27:47 <alise> cannabis probably has the least effect
20:27:51 <alise> but then it has the least effect of everything
20:27:53 <Vorpal> nooga, I don't think it was in the video though? Unless it's German name is very different
20:28:06 <alise> Well, the video isn't exactly true to real life...
20:28:16 <alise> I don't think the primary effect of LSD is seeing a creepy bunny.
20:28:17 <Vorpal> alise, it was supposed to be funny
20:28:48 <nooga> on lsd you would probably love the car you're driving and feel strong emmotional connection to the trees standing by the road
20:28:58 <Vorpal> alise, with "those" in "<Vorpal> nooga, most likely every one of those is suicide" I was referring to those in the video though
20:29:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Haschisch" is second one in the video.
20:29:19 <alise> nooga: at a regular dose isn't it a bit arguable whether you'd recognise them as trees or not?
20:29:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that same as marijuana ?
20:29:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't speak German
20:29:38 <nooga> and then comes the pink-blue, glowing squirrelephant that pursues you
20:29:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the same as en:hashish, which is same stuff in a bit different form.
20:30:03 <Sgeo> alise, stage 101
20:30:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, can't say I'm a drug expert
20:30:29 <alise> Sgeo: unlike you i wish to play the game in order from start to finish
20:30:53 <Sgeo> But I don't think 101 is after the finish
20:31:06 <fizzie> 101 typically comes after 100.
20:31:24 <fizzie> Even if it's technically speaking in a different list.
20:32:14 <fizzie> I'd like to see a changelog between 1.01 and 1.10, though.
20:33:15 <alise> dot action 2 1.10 :D
20:33:32 <fizzie> [2008-11-23 22:56:25] <fizzie> That http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ link is to version 1.01; the original you pasted -- http://dagobah.biz/flash/dotact2.swf -- is 1.10.
20:33:44 <fizzie> There were two versions at least then.
20:34:03 <alise> I've been playing 1.01.
20:35:01 <fizzie> Oh, right, we had a bit of a competition going on with oklopol.
20:36:10 <fizzie> I gave up at level 93, oklopol went on at least up to 97.
20:36:59 <fizzie> (At least 98, it seems.)
20:40:40 <alise> I did 57 with 1 TIME left. Fuck yeah.
20:40:47 <alise> fizzie: did we ever figure out how long a TIME was?
20:41:22 <fizzie> I'm not sure; I remember color-picking and figuring out the formula for the background RGB color.
20:42:05 <alise> But there are many.
20:42:44 <fizzie> Based on a quick manual check, TIME seems to be decremented approximately at a rate of 4 units/second.
20:42:51 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
20:44:52 <Sgeo> I actually died on 101 this time
20:47:25 <Sgeo> fizzie, try 101-108?
20:49:24 <alise> <Sgeo> 101 <Sgeo> 101 <Sgeo> 101 <Sgeo> 101 <Sgeo> 101 <Sgeo> 101 <Sgeo> 101
20:51:02 <alise> fizzie: on stage 58, do you know how to avoid dying on the very last bit?
20:51:05 <alise> if you space you die
20:51:10 <alise> if you wait you fall and die
20:59:08 <fizzie> Oh, I'm too late, then.
20:59:43 <fizzie> And I've tried the 101-108 levels back then, too.
21:02:14 <Sgeo> alise, someone killed my ghost
21:05:53 <fizzie> What I most hate in the acted-on dots part twain is the time-limited levels. (Okay, all of them are time-limited theoretically speaking, but those where the main challenge comes from the time limit. I just tried 60 for a lark, and ran out of time on the last "terrace" there, even though I didn't do any obvious time-wasting on the way there.
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21:08:01 <alise> fizzie: 59 is evil
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21:08:52 <alise> fizzie: Dot Action 2 is even more than nintendo hard :)
21:09:57 <Sgeo> It's not IWTBTG levels
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21:10:34 <fizzie> Says you, who hasn't even played all 100 levels yet.
21:10:53 <alise> Just not in order.
21:11:01 <alise> Or did you mean Sgeo?
21:11:47 <pikhq> Y'know, I think I hate just about everything about the UI of video game emulators these days.
21:12:12 <pikhq> And ROM management tools.
21:12:20 <pikhq> Especially in their treatment of files.
21:12:44 * Sgeo WTFs at a non-programmer using the word "callbacks"
21:13:15 <alise> pikhq: Play Dot Action 2. No other games are necessary.
21:13:44 * Sgeo growls at stage 35
21:14:06 <Sgeo> It's easy, just the damn time limit
21:15:00 <alise> Sgeo: Ha, you are so pitiful!
21:15:03 <pikhq> Here's the common ROM handling format:
21:15:27 <pikhq> foo.ext. A dump of the actual contents of the ROM chip.
21:15:28 <alise> fizzie: WHAT THE FUCK AT 60
21:16:01 <pikhq> Metadata? Bah. Any hints about what hardware is needed to run it? Baaaah. Unreliable heuristics instead!
21:16:07 <alise> fizzie: How do you do it???
21:16:45 <pikhq> That last bit is mostly an issue for systems such as the NES and SNES where the cartridge could actually have addon hardware hooked into the system.
21:17:21 <pikhq> (NES with its memory mappers, the SNES with its memory mappers and the ability to have some other processor run on the main bus in tandem with the main processor)
21:18:24 <cpressey> < Sgeo> alise, someone killed my ghost
21:18:55 <alise> fizzie: HOW DO YOU DO 60
21:19:31 <pikhq> Y'know what? I should write frontends to a bunch of (best available free) emulators. Just to get it not awful.
21:19:38 <pikhq> And some sort of ROM management tool.
21:19:38 <Sgeo> alise, you wanna watch on FooTV?
21:19:47 <pikhq> Aaaaaand define a nice metadata format.
21:20:04 <alise> Sgeo: no, i hate crawl
21:21:02 <fizzie> I tried 60, and like I said, couldn't quite make it on time. But I'm bad at swimming upwards. Can't recall if there was any tricks from the previous playthrough.
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21:21:25 <pikhq> Also: ROM patching is absolutely completely and utterly bonkers.
21:21:40 <Sgeo> alise, but you downloaded it recently!
21:21:43 <Sgeo> And played with it!
21:22:03 <Sgeo> You didn't love pitting monsters against eachother? ;)
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21:22:17 <alise> that was fun, and why did you say ";)"
21:22:21 <alise> but that wasn't playing crawl
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21:22:29 <cpressey> pikhq: I'd be happy if people just stopped calling things that clearly came on a floppy, "ROMs".
21:22:51 <cpressey> Completely diferent problem, of course.
21:22:57 <alise> fizzie: HOW DO YU DO 60 RTJHO
21:23:08 <pikhq> Oh, also. I would *love* to punch whoever is responsible for "plugins" on emulators for more recent systems.
21:23:13 <pikhq> THEY DONT FUCKING WORK.
21:23:29 <fizzie> cpressey: Download your C64 ROMs here! (No, not the rom files vice/any-other-emulator needs.)
21:25:38 <alise> fizzie: I'm actually having trouble thinking of levels more demented than DA2's, which is a problem, as I'd quite like to create DSDE.
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21:26:00 <alise> (Dot Super Death Edition.)
21:26:27 <alise> I hereby employ pikhq to come up with a dodgy half-phonetic-English-kana, one-or-two-kanji-words version of that title.
21:26:45 <alise> Dottu SUPER DEATH: edition!
21:26:51 <alise> Dottu edition: SUPER DEATH!
21:27:09 <Sgeo> alise, is 37 a race against the clock?
21:27:11 <Sgeo> I can't tell yet
21:28:39 <pikhq> alise: Sooo.... 点新死エディション?
21:29:12 <alise> "Explore new death point"
21:30:04 <alise> Hmm, I need a character like # or X but that looks dangerous.
21:30:05 <pikhq> ("ten shin shi edishon" in Hepburn, "ten sin si etìīsiȳon" in craziness)
21:30:30 <alise> pikhq: What does it translate literally as?
21:30:41 <pikhq> alise: Dot new death edition.
21:31:14 <pikhq> 新, "new", was commonly used in the names of games where "Super" was in the US.
21:31:19 <pikhq> And the rest of the world.
21:31:52 <pikhq> cpressey: No, think about games on the SNES.
21:31:55 <alise> There is a New Super Mario Brothers.
21:32:02 <alise> So is it New New Mario Brothers in Japanese?
21:32:10 <pikhq> alise: No, it was New Super Mario Brothers.
21:32:17 <alise> pikhq: Also, dot? Not dottu? :-(
21:32:45 <pikhq> alise: "Dottu" would more normally be romanised as "dottsu".
21:33:23 <alise> pikhq: How can the Japanese pronounce dot without tu after it?!
21:33:49 <pikhq> alise: They can't.
21:34:02 <pikhq> Well, they can do "dotto".
21:34:13 <pikhq> Which is how it would end up in bastardised English.
21:34:15 <Vorpal> <alise> Hmm, I need a character like # or X but that looks dangerous. <-- uh... What other characters do you think look dangerous? So we can have something to compare with
21:34:26 <alise> pikhq: So how come you detranslated it as "dot"? :'(
21:34:27 <pikhq> alise: Would you like it to just be bastardised English?
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21:34:41 <alise> <pikhq> ("ten shin shi edishon" in Hepburn, "ten sin si etìīsiȳon" in craziness) ;; Wait, I see no japanised "dot" here.
21:35:03 <pikhq> alise: Japanese for dot.
21:35:13 <alise> Right, but what is it in ludicrous English kana? :P
21:35:18 <pikhq> ドット・スーパ・デース・エディション
21:35:35 <pikhq> "Dotto suupa deesu edishon".
21:37:04 <pikhq> Or "tò'to sūhå tềsu etèīsiȳon".
21:37:23 <alise> So then this is "dotto new death edishon"?
21:37:26 <pikhq> "tò'to sûhå tềsu etèīsiȳon".
21:37:36 <alise> My game's new title
21:37:48 <alise> Isn't that one of the numbers there?
21:37:57 <fizzie> Gah, your "discussion" (or the "dotto" part, anyway) made the Tenshi ni Narumon opening theme start to play in my head. "Thanks."
21:38:33 <Sgeo> Had I not died on the jump, I would only have had 76 time to do that maze
21:38:36 <Sgeo> Time may be a factor
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21:39:30 <pikhq> 一二三四五六七八九十 There's the numbers 1 through ten.
21:39:50 <alise> Ah. Just looked similar, then.
21:39:59 <alise> pikhq: Hey, it's uppercase Xi. :P
21:40:02 <pikhq> (iti ni san yon kò roku siti hati kiȳû sìȳû)
21:41:12 <pikhq> That is not normally used.
21:41:16 <alise> pikhq: So is "ドット新死エディション" actually comprehensible to your average Japanese-speaker?
21:41:19 <alise> Also, what? They just ignore zero?
21:41:23 <alise> Japanese mathematics fuck yeah.
21:41:27 <pikhq> alise: And no, they don't ignore zero.
21:41:31 <alise> pikhq: Even "edishon"?
21:41:35 <pikhq> They use Arabic numerals.
21:42:19 <pikhq> Using the kanji for the numbers is a bit like spelling it out in English.
21:43:12 <pikhq> alise: Japanese has a lot of bastardised English in it.
21:47:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why did you watch that at all?
21:47:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how so?
21:48:04 <alise> <Vorpal> <alise> Hmm, I need a character like # or X but that looks dangerous. <-- uh... What other characters do you think look dangerous? So we can have something to compare with
21:48:14 <alise> it's for the lava/electric fence (TOTALLY LAVA)
21:48:33 <Vorpal> alise, and ! is in use? Or not wide enough?
21:48:46 <alise> so ! doesn't really look right
21:48:53 <alise> ais523: haha, i think i'd prefer to keep it ascii :)
21:49:07 <ais523> hmm, aren't really many choices in ASCII
21:49:12 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: skull and crossbones
21:49:22 <Vorpal> alise, hm... X does look somewhat dangerous. # doesn't.
21:49:27 <Vorpal> can't think of any other char
21:49:33 <alise> Vorpal: # is the walls
21:49:35 <ais523> # is typical for walls, on ASCII maps
21:49:37 <alise> X looks a bit like walls, though...
21:49:47 <ais523> ~ works for liquids, like lava
21:50:00 <Vorpal> ais523, doesn't look very dangerous
21:50:11 <Vorpal> ais523, isn't # corridor in nethack?
21:50:16 <ais523> spiky, and is used for traps in roguelikes
21:50:25 <ais523> Vorpal: for lots of things, including corridors
21:50:40 <alise> ais523: it's really an electric fence
21:50:44 <alise> (it keeps its shape and can stand alone)
21:50:54 <alise> you often get e.g. T shapes, meaning ^ would look a bit strange
21:50:59 <ais523> I've used - for fences before
21:51:05 -!- Killerkid has joined.
21:51:08 <ais523> but that would look even stranger for a T shape
21:51:14 <Vorpal> alise, what about |-|-|-|-|-| ? Fence posts
21:51:23 <alise> Vorpal: err, one character
21:51:31 <alise> although it's a bit ambiguous
21:51:39 <alise> I still need to figure out ones for green (flips the level upside down)
21:51:43 <alise> and red (gives you fence protection)
21:51:47 <alise> % would be good for green
21:51:48 <Vorpal> alise, I was just about to say that % looks editable!
21:51:53 <alise> it looks like flipping, somehow
21:52:16 <Vorpal> alise, should be "eatable" really
21:52:41 <alise> not sure what evil-protection should be
21:52:49 <alise> $? it is somewhat valuable, I guess, but that seems strange.
21:53:35 <Vorpal> alise, what about ! like nethack potion
21:53:49 <Vorpal> special effect for some time and such
21:53:53 <cpressey> You know what would be useful? If the OS could send a signal to a process meaning "Please reduce your memory consumption".
21:54:12 <alise> Vorpal: they're full block-width too
21:54:18 <alise> i.e. they all take up as much space as a #
21:54:22 <alise> just different colours
21:54:28 <Vorpal> alise, so monospace font?
21:54:36 <Vorpal> alise, and @ should be the player I think
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21:54:46 <Vorpal> yes I know I'm nethack influenced here
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21:55:06 <alise> Vorpal: yes, I thought that, but I realised that it can't be
21:55:18 <alise> you can start in mid-air or on the ground
21:55:25 <alise> is this standing on the ground
21:55:29 <alise> or falling from the top of that cell on to the ground?
21:55:33 <alise> maybe it is obvious? but
21:55:35 <cpressey> < Vorpal> alise, so monospace font?
21:55:41 <alise> here you want to be falling on to the X at the start
21:55:50 <Vorpal> alise, what was # and X?
21:55:53 <alise> so I think I'll have to specify it some other way
21:55:59 <Vorpal> alise, they both look pretty solid
21:56:02 <alise> Vorpal: # is wall/ground/floor/whatever, X is evil electric fence
21:56:06 <alise> solid, sure, but deadly
21:56:17 <alise> also, it's hollow if you have ZET
21:56:24 <alise> which you get from red blocks for a certain amount of time
21:56:45 <Vorpal> alise, starting on top of one at the beginning of a level sounds very evil
21:57:18 <cpressey> alise: How big is a Dot Action playfield, in grid cells?
21:57:27 <alise> Vorpal: well, you start falling on one
21:57:34 <alise> e.g. the one with 1 time
21:57:37 <Sgeo> Just move right or whatever
21:57:38 <alise> or was it 0 time, i forget
21:57:43 <alise> 1 time = 1/4 second
21:57:48 <alise> 0 time = game ends as soon as it starts
21:57:54 <Vorpal> alise, oh right, unrealistic physics for in-air movement
21:57:57 <Sgeo> alise, in the list, the time is listed
21:58:03 <Vorpal> most platformers have that
21:58:08 <alise> (you have to press jump and right, if you hit off the ceiling you fall quicker)
21:58:12 <alise> (making you fall on to the block in time)
21:58:15 <alise> cpressey: Pretty big
21:58:18 <alise> cpressey: Bigger than 80x24
21:59:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, there's no TV Tropes drinking game for Turkish Star Wars.
21:59:13 <Vorpal> alise, anyway you said it was unclear if you stand on ground or are falling from top of tile?
21:59:26 <Vorpal> alise, does that mean the player is smaller than a tile?
21:59:33 <alise> exactly one tile big
21:59:36 <alise> but he can be on half a tile
21:59:45 <Vorpal> alise, and half another?
21:59:52 <Phantom_Hoover> "Take a sip every time the Indiana Jones theme plays or the hero attacks someone by bouncing on a trampoline."
21:59:53 <alise> you could put it one tile up and say it's always on the ground
21:59:56 <alise> to the same effect, probably
22:00:01 <alise> what if there's another square there
22:00:01 <Vorpal> alise, thus everything is in fact 2x2 tiles big?
22:00:25 <Sgeo> alise, time is most certainly a factor in 37
22:00:32 <alise> Vorpal: he can be on 1/whateverth of a tile too
22:00:37 <alise> Sgeo: only if you suck
22:00:42 <alise> Vorpal: (however pixels high he is)
22:00:47 <alise> Vorpal: continuous movement
22:00:47 <Vorpal> alise, hard to translate to ascii that
22:01:01 <alise> but he can only start in one tile, i think
22:01:12 <Vorpal> alise, still rather bad
22:01:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: There's Turkish Star Trek!
22:01:31 <alise> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7185067049150068960
22:01:56 <alise> Funky opening music.
22:01:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it has Mr. Spak
22:02:01 <Vorpal> alise, with unicode there is probably some symbol that exists for several different "placements" in a char. But since you wanted ASCII only...
22:02:08 <alise> "Overview: This Turkish version of Star Trek is a complete rip off of the original Star Trek series, only the main character in this is a lecherous drunk accompanied by an entire soundboard of wacky effects. Everything about this film is below Z-grade."
22:02:27 <alise> Vorpal: I'm just going to have START x y or something, probably.
22:02:34 <Vorpal> alise, oh it is not just a texted version? But a rip-off?
22:02:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And it uses clips too, apparently.
22:02:45 <alise> same with Turkish Star Wars
22:02:52 <alise> they both use /clips from the original/, too
22:02:53 <cpressey> alise: I was thinking this would be a good candidate for a C64 game, with a sprite for the player. You could do an 80x50 playfield if your player sprite was really tiny (like, 2 pixels square.)
22:03:05 <alise> after the star trek theme and their own crazy theme
22:03:08 <alise> they do the star trek theme again
22:03:22 <alise> cpressey: That would be awesome.
22:03:34 <alise> The Captain's logbook. Star-date blah blah.
22:03:40 <Vorpal> alise, which star trek theme?
22:03:44 <Leonidas> Phantom_Hoover: I can't remember being on the payroll
22:03:49 <alise> Ooh-aaaaah oh oh oh oh oh aaaaaaaah
22:03:51 <Phantom_Hoover> In what little backstory TSW has, I gather that the world has been blown up several times.
22:03:55 <alise> Oh oh ohhhh aaaaah aah ahah ah ah ahohhhh
22:04:04 <alise> Hmm, that sounds inappropriate over IRC.
22:04:07 <Vorpal> alise, I'm trying to remember the TOS theme... was ages ago I watched non-movie TOS
22:04:15 <alise> Vorpal: Click the video and hear
22:04:23 <alise> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7185067049150068960
22:04:27 <alise> Hope you have a gvideo-download
22:04:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, um the theme I meant
22:05:04 <alise> Vorpal: there were 3 versions
22:05:17 <alise> two with crazy female vocals (one with them drowning out everything else)
22:05:21 <alise> (the other with it mixed in)
22:05:24 <alise> one without (series 1)
22:05:37 <alise> "Does it bother you, that I have a different structure than human, Doc?" -- Mr. Spak
22:05:56 <alise> "Mr. Spock please don't be upset. We appreciate that you Vulcans are superior species."
22:05:57 <Vorpal> this one had female voices
22:06:01 <Vorpal> which don't remember at all
22:06:14 <alise> "Upset? Probably, you forgot that such an illogical emotion does not exist on us."
22:06:52 <Vorpal> alise, when did they use which theme?
22:06:53 <alise> this has just as good writing as TOS :-)
22:07:04 <alise> Vorpal: 1 was manly and unfeminine
22:07:10 <alise> i forget the ordering of the mixed in / drowning one
22:07:16 <alise> i think 3 is the one that had it drowning out everything else creepily
22:07:25 <alise> HAHAHAH @ THE TRANSPORTER GRAPHICS
22:07:33 <Vorpal> alise, but when did they use them?
22:07:39 <Vorpal> alise, for mirror universe and such?
22:07:42 <alise> Vorpal: the three series of TOS
22:07:48 <alise> each had a different variation on the theme
22:07:54 <alise> no female, female mixed in, female drowned out
22:07:58 <alise> i forget the ordering of the latter two
22:07:59 <Vorpal> alise, god I had forgotten how long TOS ran
22:08:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: dunno
22:08:04 <alise> Vorpal: yes, not long :P
22:08:17 <alise> but just long enough for it to be syndicated striped
22:08:18 <alise> which was vital for TNG
22:08:23 <alise> vital for TOS' popularity
22:08:40 <Vorpal> <alise> but just long enough for it to be syndicated striped <-- eh?
22:08:53 <Vorpal> I understood each word but wtf is "syndicated striped"
22:09:11 <alise> striped = one episode a day
22:09:33 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripping_(television)
22:09:41 <Vorpal> alise, ah I found the original without vocals
22:10:02 <Vorpal> alise, I much prefer the TNG music.
22:10:55 <alise> Vorpal: speaking of swapping music for mirror universe episodes
22:11:00 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4nceCmigAM ;; normal Enterprise theme
22:11:06 <Vorpal> alise, which enterprise?
22:11:07 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfbsZRbwbJ4 ;; "In a Mirror, Darkly" theme
22:11:16 <Vorpal> alise, as in the last one?
22:11:17 <alise> Star Trek: Enterprise
22:11:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The series?
22:11:32 <alise> "In a Mirror, Darkly" was actually good, though.
22:11:37 <Vorpal> alise, oh wasn't that very un-spacy music too? guitar iirc?
22:11:52 <alise> Vorpal: Yes. But not the mirror universe one.
22:11:54 <Vorpal> don't think I watched any of the mirror universe
22:12:00 <alise> Only two episodes.
22:12:04 <Vorpal> alise, will download once I finished watching TNG intro
22:12:06 <alise> No overlapping, either, just one ship.
22:12:07 <pikhq> alise: The last season was about where it became watchable.
22:12:16 <alise> The whole two-parter took place in the mirror universe.
22:12:32 <alise> And it didn't end with a revolution.
22:12:34 <Vorpal> [download] 1.5% of 23.01M at 29.61k/s ETA 13:03
22:12:35 <pikhq> Yes, it got canceled just as it improved.
22:12:41 <Vorpal> alise, I will watch. In a while
22:12:52 <alise> Vorpal: might want to watch both to see the contrst
22:12:56 <pikhq> The normal theme was still god-awful.
22:13:02 <Vorpal> alise, well yes, but look at the dl speed
22:13:03 <alise> they replaced all the historical exploration scenes with warfare :)
22:13:11 <Vorpal> alise, it seems that HD download slower than smaller ones
22:13:21 <Vorpal> the TNG one was original-size youtube
22:13:28 <alise> I loved the scene of Cochrane shooting the Vulcan. Nice teaser.
22:13:30 <Vorpal> Downloaded at 200 kB/s
22:13:53 <alise> pikhq: It tried a bit too hard to be retro.
22:14:04 <alise> Prime directive? Never heard of it.
22:14:17 <alise> Stardate? Naw, let's just use Earth years. Because only FEDERATIONS make space-wise decisions!
22:14:32 <pikhq> alise: Star Trek TOS did not need a prequel. It really didn't.
22:14:41 <pikhq> It needed a sequel that completely forgot about Voyager.
22:14:47 <alise> Yes; I dislike the idea of an Enterprise-pre-Enterprise.
22:15:03 <alise> pikhq: I'd like to see a sequel set a long time after Voyager.
22:15:20 <alise> It'll require less anal clinching to canon.
22:15:33 <pikhq> alise: That would be quite nice.
22:15:51 <pikhq> I'd just like a sequel that is written well.
22:16:09 <alise> pikhq: The most WTF part of Voyager canon is that it ends with the Borg no longer being much of a threat
22:16:12 <alise> Why the hell would you do that???
22:16:13 <Vorpal> alise, the non-mirror one downloaded fast
22:16:20 <pikhq> You could freaking make it be about Wesley's adventures if it were written reasonably. :P
22:16:22 <alise> They are the best enemy ever.
22:16:41 <pikhq> (note: to make it written well would require some retconning. Because SHUT UP WESLEY!)
22:17:18 <alise> pikhq: He graduated Starfleet and grew the fuck up.
22:17:27 <cpressey> Borg? Hey yeah, we have one of them on our CREW.
22:17:31 <alise> Tell me one reason not to do this.
22:17:38 <alise> cpressey: I was referring to the finale.
22:17:46 <alise> In which future Janeway says "Ha, actually, I have this magic that defeats the Borg".
22:17:51 <alise> And gives them it.
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22:18:00 <cpressey> alise: I only care that it ENDED.
22:18:04 <alise> FUCK THE FUCKING HELL OF JANEWAY FUCK.
22:18:10 <alise> Vorpal: VOYAGER IS FUCKING SHIT.
22:18:14 <Vorpal> Janeway wasn't the worst of Voyager
22:18:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: Indeed, she wasn't.
22:18:22 <Vorpal> I mean, there were far worse parts of it
22:18:25 <cpressey> All characters were the worst characters in Voyager
22:18:27 <alise> She was the worst character
22:18:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: But: Fuck. Janeway.
22:18:33 <alise> cpressey: The Doctor
22:18:41 <alise> was the only sane man on the ship
22:18:54 <alise> pikhq: Neelix didn't control the direction of the entire ship and its crew.
22:18:58 <cpressey> OK, maybe the doctor was not entirely void as a character.
22:18:58 <Vorpal> alise, wait a second? Didn't he almost destroy the ship once?
22:19:00 <alise> Or do anything at all, actually.
22:19:02 <Vorpal> after being taken over?
22:19:06 <alise> Vorpal: The Doctor?
22:19:10 <pikhq> alise: He tried very hard to be the Wesley.
22:19:22 <pikhq> Granted, he failed because he *sucks*, but hey!
22:19:32 <alise> pikhq: Robert Picardo, the Doctor, actually initially auditioned for Neelix; can you believe that?
22:19:49 <cpressey> alise: You know waaaay too much about this awful show.
22:19:52 <alise> "I have cooked up a WONDERFUL soup that -- -- will hopefully make you shut up."
22:19:54 <pikhq> alise: You're fucking kidding.
22:19:58 <alise> cpressey: I watch it for amusement.
22:20:07 <alise> cpressey: Like MST3K, but I get to come up with the narration myself.
22:20:16 <pikhq> cpressey: It's often in so-bad-it's-good territory.
22:20:29 <pikhq> Which is... All the merit it has for much of its run.
22:20:52 <pikhq> (there's a handful of actually decent-to-good episodes that somehow managed to sneak in)
22:20:56 <cpressey> At least it's not so boring that I couldn't watch it, like -- some of those other shows.
22:21:07 <Vorpal> alise, wow that mirror universe music was *AWESOME*
22:21:08 <alise> cpressey: I've actually grown on Deep Space 9.
22:21:08 <cpressey> But is awful > boring? Dunno, really.
22:21:11 <Vorpal> alise, just pure awesome
22:21:24 <cpressey> alise: DS9 was not half as bad
22:21:27 <alise> Vorpal: I liked the fade of the title to black at the beginning. It's the little things...
22:21:32 <alise> cpressey: I mean wrt boringness.
22:21:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: The mirror universe episode there was actually genuinely good.
22:21:46 <alise> pikhq: No goatees!
22:21:53 <alise> Just a bunch of people being assholes to each other, and then it ends!
22:21:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, haven't watched them
22:21:55 <cpressey> alise: I don't know if it was boring so much as.. slow.
22:22:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, at least we're not discussing favorite captains.
22:22:13 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: OVID'S METAMORPHOSES. READ IT?
22:22:14 <alise> Voyager, "Blood Fever" review: Everyone gets pon farr. Everyone tries to have sex with each other!
22:22:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean Star Trek: The Complete Movie Scripts?
22:22:26 <alise> pikhq: There's a competition?
22:22:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I'M ABOUT 1/3 THE WAY THROUGH
22:22:33 <Vorpal> (I wonder, does that exist?)
22:22:37 <pikhq> alise: There's some debate, yes.
22:22:40 <alise> pikhq: Picard. I can see an argument for Sisko, but he wasn't really a captain.
22:22:52 <alise> pikhq: Kirk was brash and ... not as intelligent as Picard. Janewahahahahaha
22:23:02 <pikhq> alise: Some people actually like Kirk. They must love cheese.
22:23:02 <Vorpal> alise, hm I have the say TNG is my favourite
22:23:04 <alise> Archer was... uh... I can't think of anything to say
22:23:50 <alise> pikhq: One bad thing about "In a Mirror, Darkly" was a bit of a continuity error.
22:24:13 <alise> It mentions a speech by Cochrane talking about the future Borg and future crew battling before he made the warp flight in a speech.
22:24:14 <cpressey> Could not find module `Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec'
22:24:19 <alise> cpressey: Text.Parsec
22:24:23 <pikhq> alise: In a series that played with time travel to the point that it may have ceased to have happened, that is *not* a big deal.
22:24:31 <cpressey> they gotta go and move everything huh
22:24:39 <alise> pikhq: How come the crew of First Contact didn't know about this?
22:24:54 <alise> pikhq: YOU CAN say that this is because of the alternate universe.
22:25:00 <alise> But why, when it's identical in every other way apart from evil?
22:25:04 <cpressey> Could not find module `Text.Parsec'
22:25:06 <pikhq> Did I happen to mention that Enterprise may have wiped itself from existence?
22:25:11 <alise> That wasn't "In a Mirror, Darkly".
22:25:18 <alise> That was "Regeneration", which I watched the same day (oops).
22:25:24 <alise> So they have no alternate universe excuse.
22:25:26 <Vorpal> <pikhq> alise: In a series that played with time travel to the point that it may have ceased to have happened, that is *not* a big deal. <-- actually I find that was one of the few good parts of that series
22:25:39 <Vorpal> though, could have been done better
22:25:48 <Vorpal> still, any time travel is better than no time travel ;)
22:25:59 <alise> Any future series must have Q.
22:26:06 <alise> Preferably Q and the Borg at the same time.
22:26:11 <pikhq> alise: rm -rf Voyager && yes
22:26:30 <Vorpal> alise, Q was an annoying arrogant bastard
22:26:32 <alise> Let's just make an episode that is Picard and Q and the Borg destroying Voyager, over and over again, and they do it so many times that it actually disappears from the timestream forever.
22:26:36 <alise> Vorpal: ... that's ... the point ...
22:26:54 <Vorpal> alise, yes and it doesn't work out too well
22:27:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: It worked brilliantly in TNG.
22:27:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes, the first 3 or 4 times
22:27:29 <alise> "All Good Things..." <3
22:27:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: It was solidly meh in DS9, and SUCKED MAJOR ASS in Voyager...
22:27:44 <alise> Vorpal: Dude, there were only 8 Q episodes in TNG.
22:27:47 <alise> There were 8 seasons.
22:28:17 <alise> Vorpal: "Encounter at Farpoint" and "All Good Things..." are the same story.
22:28:21 <alise> Can't avoid involving Q in the conclusion.
22:28:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
22:28:27 <alise> So that's 7 Q stories now.
22:28:41 <alise> "Hide and Q" was first season, so we can pretend it never existed. 6 Q stories.
22:28:52 <Vorpal> "<alise> "Hide and Q" was first season, so we can pretend it never existed. 6 Q stories."
22:28:59 <alise> Vorpal: the first season was awful
22:29:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: First season sucked and Riker didn't have a beard.
22:29:10 <alise> it introduced Wesley-as-God (by mistake), had beardless Riker, and hackneyed plots.
22:29:11 <cpressey> Ignoring awful things, how does THAT work?
22:29:15 <Vorpal> alise, okay and 4 < 6 still
22:29:36 <cpressey> alise: Don't forget the keychain-sized phasers.
22:29:48 <cpressey> (How do you *aim* that thing?)
22:29:51 <alise> Vorpal: Well, "Q Who" is good because it introduces the Borg and is an awesome episode. 1 good story. "Deja Q" has mortal Q. Good.
22:30:07 <alise> "Qpid" ... eh. Meh. Not included.
22:30:18 <Vorpal> alise, why did you not include Qpid?
22:30:26 <alise> Because it's not good. I'm counting good ones to prove it's > 4.
22:30:30 <alise> ...anyway, point is, almost all Q stories in TNG were good.
22:30:35 <alise> And besides, there were only 8.
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22:30:43 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm? how do you aim a laser pointer of keychain size? Such exists for presentation stuff iirc
22:31:11 <Vorpal> alise, the mortal Q one was good, I agree
22:31:27 <Sgeo> I'm going to deliberately induce suffering by watching SGI.. actually, maybe I'll watch Deja Q
22:31:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:31:42 <Sgeo> I think I've seen it before
22:31:53 <alise> Watch "Encounter at Farpoint" and "All Good Things..." back to back. Bet it makes perfect sense.
22:32:18 <Vorpal> alise, how many bluray discs do you need to fit all of TOS I wonder
22:32:23 <cpressey> Vorpal: I don't know. I've never had to mortally wound a whiteboard.
22:32:25 <pikhq> "Encounter at Farpoint" is kinda wince-inducing when Q isn't on-screen.
22:32:45 <alise> SGU has half a season on a Blu-Ray.
22:32:48 <alise> So six, at the most.
22:32:54 <alise> That much quality would be pointless for the shabby source material.
22:33:00 <alise> Vorpal: SGU? 1080p.
22:33:09 <alise> Ultra quality HD etc. new modern show etc.
22:33:12 <alise> Stargate Universe.
22:33:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: ?
22:33:43 <alise> WHAT WE ARE ALL NEGLECTING HERE
22:33:50 <Vorpal> alise, well, 1080p... http://xkcd.com/732/
22:33:54 <alise> IS STAR TREK NEW VOYAGES PHASE II
22:33:54 <cpressey> alise: DOT ACTION SUPER PANIC ?
22:33:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: A Blu-ray disc gets you 50GB. Which is significantly higher than you need for very good quality 1080p video.
22:34:10 <alise> Vorpal: xkcd, stupid
22:34:19 <Vorpal> alise, why is that *specific* xkcd stupid
22:34:20 <alise> also, 1080p is damn good quality
22:34:22 <pikhq> So you either get stupid high-quality movies or quite a lot on a disc.
22:34:27 <Sgeo> I tend to read both xkcd and xkcdsucks though
22:34:31 <Vorpal> alise, I watch movies on computer, not on a TV
22:34:32 <cpressey> Should I break my vow to never read xkcd?
22:34:33 <alise> xkcdsucks sucks a lot nowadays too
22:34:37 <alise> Carl is just going through the motions
22:34:53 <alise> pikhq: STAR TREK NEW VOYAGES: PHASE II
22:35:00 <cpressey> alise: Thankfully I overcame the urge.
22:35:06 <alise> I couldn't even make myself watch more than a few minutes of World Enough and Time.
22:35:10 <alise> The glittersuit did it.
22:35:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, true. So it has way lower DPI too
22:35:15 <alise> He literally wore a suit with glitter all over it.
22:35:23 <alise> Vorpal: You sit way, way away from it.
22:35:29 <alise> xkcd wasn't dissing HDTVs, anyway, just their impressiveness.
22:35:35 <alise> He's saying "HDTVs are good but they are not anything impressive".
22:35:39 <Vorpal> alise, which is also silly IMO
22:35:54 <alise> Vorpal is stupid and has no idea why TVs are good
22:36:11 <Vorpal> alise, I find it nicer to watch on my desktop monitor
22:36:40 <Vorpal> could get a TV tuner card if I needed that
22:36:57 <alise> Television is bad. Televisions are good.
22:38:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, why did you say "ugh" while highlighting me?
22:38:37 <alise> pikhq: Proposal: Star Trek fan sequel series starring people who aren't unwashed Trekkies and with actual production values.
22:38:48 <alise> Such as Vulcans that aren't obviously wearing velcro.
22:38:54 <pikhq> alise: Problem: getting people involved.
22:39:06 <pikhq> alise: Also: to be fair, New Voyages is following after TOS.
22:39:13 <pikhq> It's got about the same level of production values.
22:39:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I hardly ever watch TV. when I watch DVDs I do it on my computer. Which has a nice monitor and nice sound.
22:39:17 <alise> pikhq: I'll play Wesley, who, although he has graduated, has a rare genetic condition that means he still looks 12.
22:39:25 <alise> The looking 12 part, that is.
22:39:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, now I'm wondering what the fuck you meant with "<Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, ugh."
22:39:31 <alise> Also, he has actually shrunk.
22:39:47 <alise> Maybe we should just do a Galaxy Quest series.
22:39:49 <pikhq> alise: How's about we just get Wil Wheaton.
22:39:58 <alise> pikhq: He'd want money.
22:40:07 <alise> Also, he looks like Riker now.
22:40:22 <alise> pikhq: !! Wil could play Riker.
22:40:26 <alise> Frakes is way too old-looking now.
22:40:47 <alise> I'm assuming this has just turned into "Star Trek: The Next Generation: The Next Generation".
22:40:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, okay. I guess you just said that to troll then, if you aren't going to explain what the fuck you meant with it
22:41:51 <alise> pikhq: So, starring WIL WHEATON as COMMANDER WILLIAM T. RIKER.
22:42:09 <cpressey> sudo apt-get install libghc6-parsec-dev
22:42:24 <alise> pikhq: Presumably this is set on the Enterprise-E.
22:42:29 <Vorpal> oh? maybe you meant that tv tuner card have traditionally been shoddy with buggy drivers? Well, there are good ones. I know some people who are using such under linux with good results.
22:42:43 <Vorpal> there are of course still bad tv tuners, but you just have to avoid them
22:42:55 <cpressey> I will get zzo38 to write me a driver for my card
22:42:59 <Vorpal> like you had to avoid ATI graphics a few years ago (that changed quite a bit now though!)
22:43:08 <alise> pikhq: We need Patrick Stewart...
22:43:59 <alise> pikhq: Fuck it, we can't possibly play the TNG crew.
22:44:07 <alise> pikhq: It's set on the Enterprise-K.
22:44:09 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, there's a picture of David Tennant as Hamlet about to stab Patrick Stewart.
22:44:17 <Vorpal> alise, why not pick the best characters from each generation? Spock, Picard, Riker, Data, and so on?
22:44:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: I loved that performance.
22:44:28 <alise> Vorpal: Because we are Trekkies, and we fucking care about canon.
22:44:41 <alise> Besides, Spock/Picard would delight the slashers.
22:44:43 <Vorpal> alise, ah I know how to solve it
22:44:50 <Vorpal> alise, we take the time travel from ENT
22:44:55 <Vorpal> alise, argh you were too fast
22:45:00 <alise> ENT had no time travel
22:45:12 <alise> but what do you mean
22:45:13 <ais523> it's science fiction, you can contrive a reason
22:45:18 <alise> it was a prequel, not a time travel
22:45:24 <alise> everyone else just forgot to mention Archer and his ship
22:45:35 <Vorpal> alise, ENT had *lots* of time travel iirc?
22:45:46 <ais523> have all the characters resurrected via some alien technology
22:45:51 <Vorpal> ais523, that works too
22:45:53 <ais523> and set it in the far future
22:46:00 <ais523> so they've all had a chance to be dead
22:46:02 <Vorpal> ais523, even further than the rest?
22:46:15 <ais523> far future wrt Star Trek canon
22:46:30 <alise> ais523: the year 3000, let's say!
22:46:36 <alise> and we could have someone frozen in 1999
22:46:46 <alise> [opening titles play]
22:46:49 <Vorpal> alise, ARGH YOU BEAT ME TO IT!
22:47:15 <Vorpal> alise, I think someone from 3100 or such visited Archer in ENT?
22:47:19 <pikhq> This episode brought to you by blatant trademark violation!
22:47:44 <cpressey> Now tubular bells are stuck in my head!
22:48:57 <Vorpal> cpressey, which ones are tubular bells?
22:49:15 * cpressey hands Vorpal a link to Wikipedia
22:50:00 <Vorpal> cpressey, why are they stuck in your head? Accident while practising playing?
22:50:24 <alise> cpressey: Dum dum dumdum dum dum dum dum da da dada dum dum dumdum...
22:50:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh, it uses those?
22:50:33 <alise> Now "Tubular Bells" is stuck in my head!
22:51:03 <cpressey> alise: Thankfully I don't know that one. Only heard of it.
22:51:18 <alise> cpressey: I've listened to the whole thing. It's alright.
22:51:19 <cpressey> For some reason, I think it must be like "Classical Gas".
22:52:41 <alise> cpressey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4eZJh3FFg0 an excerpt of its beginning
22:52:51 <alise> It's not anything amazing or anything, but.
22:52:58 <alise> It sure changes a lot.
22:53:42 <cpressey> I can't seem to put out a lot of that right now.
22:54:21 <cpressey> And also, there are too many things I could be doing, so I can't decide.
22:54:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has joined.
22:54:56 <cpressey> Parsec is a wash. I... just can't get into it.
22:55:38 <cpressey> Well, at least I have it *installed*.
22:55:48 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:56:21 <cpressey> It kind of bugs me that it doesn't come with a lexer
22:57:29 <alise> It's just not ... interesting ... good ... uh
22:58:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, just listened to some tubular bells on youtube, and yeah catchy
22:58:26 <alise> sebbu[laptop]: I just wrote a line on IRC to someone random.
22:58:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:58:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, but futurama theme is a lot more than just that. Lots synthed music too I think
22:59:34 <cpressey> I thought it was one long tubular bells solo
23:02:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, um? Are there different variants?
23:02:16 <Vorpal> cpressey, the ones I found on youtube was definitely not solos
23:05:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, I can't find any that is a solo
23:06:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, definitely synthed music, tubular bells, and some other percussion, possibly also some non-overdriven electrical guitar, though not completely sure about that
23:10:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:10:50 <cpressey> Vorpal: The best TV themes are always instrumental solos
23:11:39 * cpressey struggles through this Parsec thing
23:11:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, not sure I agree
23:12:24 <Vorpal> instrumental: yes in general, though voice that isn't singing can be used to some great effect
23:12:31 <Vorpal> like in the mirror universe theme for ENT
23:12:35 <Vorpal> which is indeed pure awesome
23:13:01 <Vorpal> solos? No I don't think I agree
23:13:46 <cpressey> "Murder, She Wrote", "MacGyver", "The Beachcombers"
23:14:10 <Vorpal> never watched the first or the last ones
23:15:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, which season for the middle one? Was years since I watched MacGyver. And google indicates different theme music for the different seasons
23:15:02 -!- Brandie has joined.
23:15:02 <Brandie> Spamming is fun! Brought to you by FreeNode. /join #freenode
23:15:02 -!- Brandie has left (?).
23:15:33 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:16:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, most absurd spam ever in logs while you were offline
23:16:58 -!- Sebbie has joined.
23:16:58 <Sebbie> Spamming is fun! Brought to you by FreeNode. /join #freenode
23:16:58 -!- Sebbie has left (?).
23:18:32 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover__: robert hart, night watchman at rhodes, declares it was mixed with a sort of palimpsest formed after the obliteration of a previous design. in nature it was wholly fnord by the sculptured walls along our route. only when we had passed outside the radius of the campfire. then i half fancied i heard a new sound: common, yet unlike any i had ever looked
23:19:16 -!- aklis has joined.
23:19:23 -!- aklis has left (?).
23:19:58 <cpressey> aklis: You forgot to tell us about teh FREENOED
23:20:20 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
23:20:31 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
23:20:40 <Vorpal> cpressey, no that was some random person joining due to me mentioning this spam to a staffer in #freenode. happened to mention channel name
23:20:57 <Vorpal> and that person was also complaining about the same spam in another channel I think
23:22:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, um I can only find non-solo theme music for MacGyver when googling
23:22:22 <Vorpal> cpressey, so got a link to the solo version?
23:23:39 <Vorpal> cpressey, actually there seems to be some guy who recorded a solo arrangement on guitar, but it seems definitely non-official
23:23:42 <ais523> given that #freenode is the channel where you report spam, why would a spammer refer you to it?
23:23:44 <Vorpal> so yeah a link would be nice
23:24:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, no? Just that last guy
23:24:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, who didn't spam
23:29:46 <cpressey> OK, so Parsec is maybe livable if you build off the supplied combinators.
23:31:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, you don't want to do that in #freenode
23:31:21 <Sgeo> Wait, cpressey dislikes Parsec?
23:31:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, continue and chances are you will be klined
23:31:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, seriously
23:32:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, basically it is a non-joky channel
23:32:27 <Sgeo> Why isn't Deja Q in fiveminute.net ?
23:32:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what is "fiveminute.net" to begin with
23:32:51 <ais523> hmm, I've almost got the DJGPP build of C-INTERCAL working again
23:33:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, is it something owned by someone in here? If not, why are you asking here
23:33:28 <Sgeo> Because several people here are fans of fiveminute.net
23:33:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, and seriously go learn about IRC. I think kline was even in the original irc
23:33:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, irc rfc*
23:33:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I nave no idea what it is even
23:34:11 * Sgeo wonders if Vorpal is lacking a web browser
23:34:27 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I fail to see why I should open it for this
23:34:28 <Sgeo> Grah, I think I'm turning into alise
23:34:54 <Sgeo> It's a site with 5-minute satires of various Star Trek (and a few other series) episodes
23:35:18 <cpressey> Sgeo: I'm working through my differences with Parsec right now
23:35:46 <Sgeo> Vorpal, many of them
23:35:59 <Sgeo> The one for Stargate SG-1's "2010" is junk though
23:35:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, oh, it is not videos? It is transcripts?
23:36:15 <Vorpal> Sgeo, how can it be 5-minute satires then?
23:36:21 <Vorpal> wouldn't it depend on reading speed
23:36:24 <cpressey> ais523: Yes! DJGPP rocking goodness!
23:36:27 <Sgeo> *shrug*, it's just the name
23:37:06 <Sgeo> Yar: And stranded the two of them on a remote planet? Does this mean Q's reality series is Queer Eye for the Bearded Guy now?
23:37:06 <Sgeo> Worf: Commander Riker does not have a beard.
23:37:06 <Sgeo> Yar: Yeah, but who knows if I'll get a shot at making that joke later.
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23:42:10 <Vorpal> <ais523> hmm, I've almost got the DJGPP build of C-INTERCAL working again <-- does that mean you had to break filenames again?
23:42:39 <ais523> but I haven't found out yet
23:43:29 <Vorpal> ais523, I seem to remember that the Mac/PPC port had some longer filenames, that had to be that way
23:43:48 <Vorpal> that is MacOS Classic/PPC
23:46:03 <cpressey> !haskell let i :: Integer = read "123"
23:46:21 <cpressey> No, there's some other syntax for that isn't there
23:46:27 <Vorpal> ais523, did you integrate the patches from my port?
23:47:01 <ais523> aren't they rather system-specific?
23:47:03 <cpressey> !haskell let (i :: Integer) = read "123" in i
23:47:05 <Vorpal> ais523, some of those fixed generic problems that were hidden due to gcc accepting non-strictly conforming programs
23:47:19 <Vorpal> ais523, see the docs included with the patches
23:47:24 <ais523> hmm, I'll try to see which are portability patches and maybe apply them
23:47:58 <Vorpal> ais523, and the path generation fix is generic but only matters on platforms where adding an extra path separator char isn't harmless
23:48:01 <Vorpal> such as classic mac OS
23:48:08 <Vorpal> where it is definitely non-harmless
23:48:09 <cpressey> !haskell let i = ((read "123") :: Integer) in i
23:48:35 <Vorpal> ais523, since there could be other such platforms you should probably apply that fix
23:49:25 <ais523> oh, I agree with portability fixing
23:49:37 <Vorpal> ais523, and one fix for the *.l files was needed for any platforms lacking unistd.h
23:49:45 <Sgeo> My patch is in AceHack!
23:49:58 <Vorpal> ais523, which flex didn't properly check for
23:50:01 <ais523> Sgeo: it is; when did you find out, and how?
23:50:12 <Sgeo> ais523, you mentioned it in #nethack I think
23:50:18 <Sgeo> Either that, or you were adding it
23:50:26 <ais523> and I assumed you'd have noticed earlier
23:50:26 <Vorpal> ais523, very few of those patches are system specific. It is just that it happens to work on most other platforms :P
23:50:49 <Sgeo> Well, we were talking about AceHack now
23:50:49 <Vorpal> ais523, the system specific stuff is in the ppc subdir and in perpet.c, and iirc not everything for perpet.c was system specific
23:52:50 <Vorpal> ais523, bbl, if you have any question about the patches I'm probably back in about 20 minutes or so. Maybe a bit more
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23:59:59 <oerjan> <cpressey> I think it is, because I think you can encode SMETANA in it, but my brain isn't really working <-- SMETANA isn't TC
00:00:14 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:00:23 <oerjan> not with finite starting setup
00:00:44 <cpressey> I assumed ByteByteJump isn't with fiite starting setup either.
00:01:33 <oerjan> <cpressey> Oh btw, that P != NP proof was debunked, wasn't it?
00:02:12 <cpressey> infinite SMETANA needs a "pattern" in the initial infinite program though, I think (like e.g. Wireworld does), but BBJ might not, it might work with it "all zeroes"
00:02:18 <oerjan> more or less, the author seems unable to admit it though
00:02:46 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow).
00:03:10 <oerjan> last i heard he _still_ claimed to be intending to send a repaired proof for publication. but no longer to publish it on the web beforehand :D
00:03:39 <oerjan> (it wasn't intended to reach the web initially, though)
00:04:30 <oerjan> i haven't looked much at bytebytejump
00:05:55 <oerjan> what is more dubious is that he now claimed to send it just to select experts again - but this did _not_ include the people that had been finding flaws
00:06:35 <oerjan> (most importantly terence tao, who said he had not received a copy)
00:06:46 -!- cpressey has changed nick to Dubious.
00:07:37 <oerjan> i guess at this point everyone expects it to just fizzle out and be forgotten
00:07:39 -!- sebbu has joined.
00:09:23 <oerjan> incidentally there was a proof that P=NP from an indian professor in recent days
00:09:53 <oerjan> it doesn't seem to be taken very seriously though
00:10:36 <Sgeo> Is there a name for the class of problems that get more convenient to solve if the halting problem were solved
00:10:43 <Sgeo> Note "convenient". As in, not necessary
00:10:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: Pi_1 and Sigma_1
00:11:17 -!- sebbu[laptop] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:11:20 <Sgeo> Although necessary is also interesting
00:12:11 <Dubious> Sgeo: You might have to define "convenient" more formally
00:12:21 <oerjan> i cannot recall anything about non-necessary
00:13:04 <Dubious> It's pretty bizarre to think of things like, "If I have an oracle for HP I can sort a list in O(log n) time!"
00:13:12 <oerjan> Sgeo: the halting problem _already_ assumes you have unlimited resources to start with, so defining "convenient" seems difficult.
00:14:07 <oerjan> Dubious: now that _is_ dubious, you would need to load the data onto the oracle tape after all
00:14:45 <oerjan> although given that, it _would_ seem like an HP oracle could solve everything computable in O(n) time
00:15:30 <oerjan> (just load the fixed program which halts iff your computation accepts, plus its data)
00:16:40 <oerjan> that's [everything computable] in O(n) time btw, not everything [computable in O(n) time]
00:19:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:20:17 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:31:14 <alise> <Sgeo> Grah, I think I'm turning into alise ;; why?
00:31:32 <Sgeo> Instead of telling him what he wanted to know, I just acted rudely
00:31:47 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that saying that may also be rude :/
00:32:02 <alise> <cpressey> "Murder, She Wrote", "MacGyver", "The Beachcombers" ;; I hate Murder, She Wrote so much.
00:34:34 -!- comex has changed nick to PermanentRebel.
00:34:38 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOWWUdMAfSY
00:34:53 <alise> <Sgeo> My patch is in AceHack!
00:35:11 <Sgeo> alise, the one that allows candles to be attached to the candelabrum underwater
00:35:42 <Dubious> alise: "The Scarecrow and Mrs. King".
00:36:34 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why can't you do that normally?
00:36:39 <alise> Sgeo: I don't mind people saying they're like me :P
00:36:49 <alise> Sgeo: I only do that to AnMaster, though.
00:36:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I can't say I ever tried in nethack though
00:36:56 <Sgeo> Vorpal, because it thinks that you're trying to light a candle
00:37:02 <Sgeo> And won't let you
00:37:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, should report a bug to the nethack theme too? Unless that has already been done
00:37:42 <Sgeo> Vorpal, yeah, reported a while ago
00:38:05 <Sgeo> Took them time to receive it, and they never checked if the patch is still up, so they made their own, probably more elegant, fix
00:38:54 <alise> Sgeo: NetHack dev team, elegant code.
00:39:38 <Vorpal> alise, indeed, Highly elegant. Compared to some of the code on tdwtf that is.
00:40:40 -!- PermanentRebel has changed nick to comex.
00:40:47 <Dubious> Hm, 80's TV shows may not be the best cultural common ground for a 15-year-old in Britain.
00:40:58 <Vorpal> comex, not so permanent then?
00:41:06 <alise> Oh, Dubious is cpressey.
00:41:11 <alise> Dubious: I had no idea of your context.
00:41:13 <comex> Vorpal: No, I'm still a Rebel (in Agora). Just not in IRC.
00:41:22 <Vorpal> coppro, or perhaps you rebelled against being a permanent one?
00:41:27 <Dubious> COntext?! Pfah! btw I'm getting used to Parsec.
00:41:29 <alise> He rebels against APPLE with his BOMBS
00:41:42 <alise> I think this is actually how jailbreaking works; exactly like civil war
00:41:45 <alise> Please confirm/deny, comex
00:41:52 <alise> Dubious: Anyway, I hate Murder, She Wrote so, so much.
00:41:58 <alise> *"Murder, She Wrote"
00:42:21 <alise> Vorpal: You know those silly light crime programs of the 80s?
00:42:23 <alise> Diagnosis Murder and the like.
00:42:32 <alise> It's just like that, except the main character is a semi-old woman.
00:42:35 <alise> Who attracts DEATH. EVERYWHERE
00:42:42 <Vorpal> alise, like Miss Maple?
00:42:57 <alise> Vorpal: Much worse.
00:43:16 <Vorpal> alise, the Miss Marple *books* are actually good
00:43:42 <Vorpal> alise, a bit repetitive after a while though
00:43:56 <Dubious> Agatha Christie can't hold a candle to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
00:44:28 <Vorpal> Dubious, while that is true, that doesn't mean Agatha Christie is *bad*. Just not nearly as good.
00:44:46 <FireFly> www.js1k.com may interest you people, if you don't know about it
00:45:25 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
00:45:57 <alise> Is anyone actually playing Dot Action 2 currently?
00:50:41 <alise> fizzie: Do you remember how to do 60?
00:52:17 <ais523> wow, sed is slow on DOSBox
00:52:30 <ais523> well, everything is (rm is actually slow enough that you can see it execute)
00:53:19 <alise> ais523: what version?
00:53:24 <alise> djgpdgdjgpjgpgjpdgjdpgpp?
00:55:04 <alise> ais523: you can run Windows 3.1 on it. Try that :P
00:55:19 <ais523> don't have a spare win3.1 license
00:56:16 <alise> ais523: nor does anyone else who does it...
00:56:35 <alise> ais523: besides, you can't buy them any more
00:56:42 <Dubious> http://pastie.org/1138727 <-- Why this not work?
00:57:11 <Dubious> Why my fail not tell endBy1 stop?
00:59:05 <alise> Dubious: Please call yourself cpressey and what have you done to my browser.
00:59:13 -!- Dubious has changed nick to cpressey.
00:59:24 <cpressey> I ATE YOUR BROWSER, LITTLE MAN
00:59:45 * cpressey is apparently some kind of dragon creature
01:00:13 <alise> cpressey: http://imgur.com/zZyIH.png
01:00:15 <cpressey> I bet I have to use 'try' or 'choice'
01:01:21 <alise> <Dubious> Why my fail not tell endBy1 stop?
01:01:38 <alise> Well, fail will fail the whole parse, I think
01:01:43 <alise> rather than ending endBy1
01:01:54 <alise> I'd tell you to use Parsec 3, but *eh*
01:01:57 <cpressey> Oh wait Parsec does come with a lexer!
01:02:00 <alise> cpressey: What is this language?
01:02:03 <alise> Also, yes, it does.
01:02:06 <alise> Not the most general one, but yes.
01:02:26 <Sgeo> My kitchen, if it were a restaurant's kitchen, would be closed downj
01:02:43 <cpressey> alise: This is just an example, as was the previous one I pastied.
01:03:01 <cpressey> Sort-of kind-of parts of the PL-{GOTO} language.
01:03:18 <alise> Sgeo: DETTOL PROTECTS FACT
01:03:28 <cpressey> alise: I guess my question is, how does endBy1 know when to end, if not from a fail (I thought it would catch it and stop)?
01:03:42 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:03:57 <alise> I'll tell you by quoting the source, which will be a bitch because you're being poopy and using Parsec 2.
01:03:58 <cpressey> PL-{GOTO} is the language of for loops, basically (it's in a computation theory text by Brainerd & Weber)
01:04:02 <alise> Does import Text.Parsec work?
01:04:13 <alise> If so, you're using Parsec 3, which is probably good.
01:04:21 <cpressey> It does not. I'm using whatever Ubuntu decides to give me. Give it to me, Ubuntu!
01:04:28 <alise> Do you have cabal?
01:04:41 <cpressey> Cabal makes me sick. But, I can check.
01:04:54 <cpressey> bash: cabal: command not found
01:05:11 <oerjan> cpressey: in any case you need try if you want anything to recover from a fail that consumes characters
01:06:53 <alise> cpressey: It appears that Parsec has automatic support for indentation-based parsing.
01:06:57 <alise> Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.IndentParser
01:06:59 <alise> As part of the tokeniser.
01:07:08 <alise> that's another thing
01:07:20 <Sgeo> http://bobby-tables.com/
01:07:20 <alise> cabal install IndentParser --constraint="parsec >= 3"
01:07:33 <alise> cpressey: if you remove the ubuntu package, install cabal-install (search your package manager)
01:07:40 <alise> cabal install parsec==3
01:07:55 <alise> oh, apparently IndentParser doesn't actually work with parsec 3
01:08:05 <cpressey> `apt-cache search cabal-install` == ''
01:08:05 <alise> although there appears to be replacement code
01:08:15 <alise> cpressey: apt-cache search cabal
01:09:03 <cpressey> `apt-cache search cabal` == ghc6, ghc6-doc, ghc6-prof, haskell-devscripts, libhugs-cabal-bundled
01:09:05 <alise> [[The beta-Juliet language is not Turing-Complete by itself. Nor is the Portia pre-processor. However, when used together, the intent is that they form a Turing-Complete language.]] ;; DIDN'T YOU KNOW THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE
01:09:19 <alise> (So say people who don't believe in ais523's proof.)
01:09:32 <alise> cpressey: Install fortunes-fr. If nothing else, you will be amused.
01:09:49 <alise> [[[Historical note: Portia, as it has stood for many years, cannot really generalize either, so the combination of beta-Juliet and Portia is still not Turing-Complete.]]]
01:10:10 <cpressey> Some sort of InfinitePortia might work
01:10:45 <alise> "beta-Juliet and Portia are puns on the names of automobile manufacturers." ;; Wait, which?
01:11:48 <cpressey> But Toyota sucks now so I regret calling it that now.
01:11:57 <alise> Which manufacturers yaeraeryahragh
01:12:01 <alise> cpressey: Can 2iota programs terminate?
01:12:20 <cpressey> alise: Yes, if there are no more events
01:12:51 <alise> cpressey: You could have made a joke wrt the recent Toyotas that wouldn't stop accelerating.
01:13:12 <alise> Why did you not forsee this?!?!??!?!!?!
01:14:27 <alise> cpressey: Hey, do you strictly need the alphabet/succ stuff?
01:14:49 <alise> event Succ One, causes SuccResult Two;
01:14:53 <alise> event Succ Two, causes SuccResult Three;
01:15:23 <alise> event Domino N Falls, causes Succ N.
01:15:31 <alise> event SuccResult N, causes Domino N Falls.
01:15:34 <oerjan> but in any case, the Result Succs.
01:15:55 <alise> cpressey: what is succ Seven, anyway?
01:15:57 <alise> if you have an alphabet of seven
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01:16:16 <cpressey> I think it's One Seven. 2iota has lists of symbols. Or something
01:16:49 <cpressey> I'm more than crazy. I'm Dubious. Or I *was*.
01:17:17 <cpressey> SO, I know I need a 'try', but I don't know where to put it. Attempt #1 did not bear fruit.
01:19:30 <cpressey> alise: the whole "succ" thing was to ensure that you could access an infinite set of names of events.
01:19:37 <alise> try's loins are infertile.
01:19:47 <cpressey> Otherwise there would be no Turing-completey.
01:20:59 <cpressey> alise: OK, "Porsche" and "Alfa Romeo"
01:21:16 <alise> cpressey: Oh, I thought it was a pronunciation pun.
01:21:53 <cpressey> Actually "Portia" was this character in "Weerd-Oh's"... I assume they were punning it. I just borrowed it, in that respect.
01:22:05 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:22:22 <alise> Misplaced apostrophe syndrome.
01:22:49 -!- myndzi has joined.
01:23:06 <cpressey> Sorry, "Weird-Ohs". http://sharetv.org/shows/weird-ohs_ca
01:23:51 <cpressey> But yes. beta-Juliet is more of a correspondence play-on-words.
01:24:41 <cpressey> I've gotten emails from people assuming the languages have something to do with Shakespeare, because there's a Portia in one of his other plays.
01:26:35 <ais523> I never did get the pun in "beta-Juliet"
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01:27:11 <Sgeo> What's alpha-romeo supposed to mena?
01:27:32 <zzo38> I just have one question, if you have any opinion what DVI specials the TeXnicard DVI driver needs to support.
01:27:37 <Sgeo> I assume that the joke's there, and "beta-Juliet" is a second-tier joke
01:27:43 <cpressey> Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo
01:28:37 <cpressey> zzo38: I have no opinion on that matter.
01:29:03 <alise> Sgeo doesn't know of Alfa Romeo?
01:29:41 <zzo38> O, that is what Alfa Romeo means. And is that where "beta-Juliet" comes from?
01:29:45 <Sgeo> It's an automaker?
01:30:33 <alise> cpressey: Please have a go at stage 60 of Dot Action 2.
01:30:37 <alise> Code 188-268. kthx
01:32:11 <alise> fizzie: SERIOUSLY HOW DO YOU DO IT
01:32:16 <cpressey> alise: Please give me Flash on Ubuntu without any hassle.
01:32:37 <alise> cpressey: Install the package.
01:32:53 <Sgeo> alise, please play stage 101 of Dot Action 2
01:33:17 <alise> Sgeo: I haven't completed 60-100 yet.
01:33:32 <zzo38> And what is the best way to implement allowing the text to be stretched horizontally but not vertically, if there is not room, it will make it less wider horizontal, with using TeX, METAFONT, ImageMagick, etc?
01:33:43 <Sgeo> Those won't show up in the list when you do the bonus code
01:33:50 <alise> zzo38: the only TeX etc. we know is LaTeX.
01:34:01 <alise> They appear after you complete 100.
01:34:10 <alise> I don't care how you justify it to yourself, I am playing in order and that means 100 before 101.
01:34:12 <Sgeo> alise, have you checked the flash file for that?
01:34:23 <alise> Sgeo: I have /done it/ before when using a code for all 100, iirc.
01:34:26 <alise> Or at least someone here did.
01:34:26 <zzo38> You know only LaTeX?
01:34:48 <alise> zzo38: All of us do, more or less. Or nothing at all.
01:34:52 <cpressey> alise: Hassle level has risen above 0.4%, aborting.
01:35:03 <Sgeo> cpressey, you had to accept a LICENSE?
01:35:17 <cpressey> sha256sum mismatch install_flash_player_10_linux.tar.gz
01:35:18 <cpressey> The Flash plugin is NOT installed.
01:35:38 <alise> You have an out-of-date package file, probably.
01:35:51 <alise> cpressey: That is the package, right?
01:36:38 <alise> cpressey: sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude install flashplugin-nonfree
01:36:40 <alise> No reason that should not work.
01:36:55 <zzo38> I am not asking about macro packages though. I am asking about how I should implement the DVI driver and stuff like that, to make it work properly like that.
01:37:29 <alise> zzo38: None of us know about that.
01:37:38 <alise> As far as I am aware.
01:37:43 <cpressey> Did a 'sudo apt-get update'. Did a 'sudo apt-get remove flashplugin-nonfree' then again with the 'sudo apt-get install flashplugin-nonfree'. Same checksum error.
01:38:23 <Sgeo> I'd alfa-romeo HER beta-Juliet
01:38:51 <alise> cpressey: 32-bit or 64-bit?
01:39:32 <alise> cpressey: Okay, it's easy then:
01:39:56 <ais523> sounds vaguely like the package is corrupted somehow
01:39:58 <alise> cpressey: http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/thankyou/?installer=Flash_Player_10.1_for_Linux_(.deb)
01:39:59 <ais523> if the checksum is wrong
01:40:04 <alise> cpressey: Save this, then "sudo dpkg -i thefilename".
01:40:24 <alise> (ais523: I know, I know, they have an apt repository, but this is simple.)
01:40:45 <Sgeo> I'd apt HER cache
01:40:48 <alise> ais523: and it sounds to me like Adobe upgraded it silently
01:40:58 <Sgeo> I'd stop HER... Ok, enough
01:41:22 <alise> fizzie: Are you there.
01:43:56 <cpressey> alise: And restart Firefox I presume>
01:44:22 <alise> cpressey: Just reloading a page should work, but if not, yeah.
01:44:39 <cpressey> alise: Gimme that dot action link again
01:44:54 <alise> http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/
01:45:01 <alise> I'd prefer a fast mirror with 1.10, but there you go.
01:45:06 <alise> 188-268 for level 60
01:45:14 <alise> I think the trick is to bash off the ceiling before you drop down to the line of blues, so you fall faster.
01:46:34 <Sgeo> ]What's so great about 1.10?
01:46:54 <cpressey> alise: HOw do I enter the code?
01:46:57 <alise> Sgeo: Dunno. It's totally updated.
01:46:58 <Sgeo> asd prevent tk be dru nk
01:47:00 <alise> cpressey: Second menu item.
01:47:16 <Sgeo> Does cpressy even know the slightest thing about playing?
01:47:16 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:47:22 <Sgeo> Cyan == goal. You need all of theym
01:47:31 <Sgeo> Yellow == death, unless the Zet timer is running
01:47:41 <cpressey> Sgeo: No he doesn't really. He got up to level 3 a few days ago!
01:48:00 <Sgeo> ....so what happened in the meantime that Flash is no longer existant?
01:48:23 <cpressey> Sgeo: That was a work computer.
01:48:35 <Sgeo> erm, Arrow to End, then space
01:49:34 <cpressey> HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO PASS LEVEL 60 IN THAT SORT OF TIME LIMIT????
01:49:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
01:49:55 <alise> I've been level with the last dot when I die
01:50:06 <alise> I am sure you have to bash against the ceiling so you fall faster when you go to that line of dots
01:50:32 <cpressey> I only got past the first "water" and the clock ran out.
01:58:30 -!- Tegeen has joined.
01:58:30 <Tegeen> HI GUYS. ENJOY FLYING FREENODE. WE ONLY ASK THAT YOU JOIN #FREENODE :)
01:58:30 -!- Tegeen has left (?).
02:00:51 <ais523> why spam this channel?
02:01:05 <ais523> it's a kind-of pointless channel to spam...
02:01:08 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
02:01:14 <ais523> they should spam #freenode instead, there are many more people there
02:01:25 <alise> i've told #freenode.
02:01:27 <pikhq> Advertisement tends to just piss us off, anyones.
02:01:52 <pikhq> Seems kinda pointless to spam Freenode in general, really.
02:02:06 <Sgeo> And to spam about #freenode in particukar...
02:03:57 <Sgeo> I have a confession to make. I am actually a spammer.
02:04:08 <Sgeo> I came in here to spam PSOX related articles
02:05:05 <Sgeo> cpressey, you see, I am a time-travelling spammer
02:05:31 <Sgeo> Within 5 years, PSOX will be a hugely successful commercial product, and I will use this channel as free labor.
02:05:42 <Sgeo> So my goal is to get all the minds here primed for that event.
02:06:10 <Sgeo> Anyone want to help me magnetize cpressey?
02:06:12 <alise> That is not going well.
02:07:38 <alise> <Slipyx> HI GUYS. ENJOY FLYING FREENODE. WE ONLY ASK THAT YOU JOIN #FREENODE :)
02:08:42 <Sgeo> Um, by "move along", do they mean leave?
02:08:45 <Sgeo> Or just don't talk?
02:09:10 <alise> Sgeo: I don't know who they are talking to.
02:09:14 <alise> It's +z, as they've said.
02:09:16 <alise> Can you see my messages?
02:09:46 <alise> Conclusion: #freenode are kind of assholes. Scratch the "kind of".
02:10:31 <Sgeo> That's like me concluding that LambdaMOO is anti-documentation based on one person... oh wait
02:10:37 <Sgeo> I did conclude that. Maybe we're both wrong
02:13:31 * Sgeo moos at cpressey
02:13:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
02:15:39 * Sgeo moos at the Firefox plugin
02:16:33 <alise> what firefox plugin?
02:19:01 <Sgeo> Is your goal to get me to say the name? Because I would have said it eventually if I didn't realize that that was your goal
02:27:01 <Sgeo> GreaseMonkey, do you mind if I ping you
02:27:22 <Sgeo> Why have I been acting drunk today?
02:28:10 <alise> http://blog.thejit.org/wp-content/exp/exp-canvas/index.html
02:28:43 <Sgeo> I've had caffeine this past week, but none today
02:28:47 <Sgeo> Maybe that's why?
02:32:19 <alise> [[The smallest movement a computer mouse can detect is referred to as a "mickey"]]
02:32:22 <alise> I so dearly hope this is true.
02:36:48 <zzo38> alise: I have read about that too, about the "mickey"
02:45:39 <Sgeo> http://qntm.org/files/aasia/01.jpg SAM HUGHES????
02:46:08 <Sgeo> alise, you are going to read Fine Structure sometime before you die, right?
02:47:01 <Sgeo> I've never seen a picture of him before
02:47:04 <Sgeo> That I remmeber
02:47:27 <alise> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7306696114058163464
02:58:38 <cpressey> Wow, Tubular Bells is a weirder song than I thought.
03:00:39 <alise> Song? It's 48:57 long!
03:03:31 <cpressey> The one I was listening to, which claimed to be the original, was 8:07. Five minutes before there are any actual tubular bells, too.
03:03:42 <cpressey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8l5fthffiE
03:05:50 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that when I talk about my dad, I only talk about bad stuff. I never talk about the ok stuff, or the funny stuff
03:07:20 <cpressey> Sgeo: That tears it. There is NO WAY you will get me to believe you aren't drunk.
03:07:40 <Sgeo> Throughout the whole day?
03:09:47 <cpressey> Well anyway, I seem to have a PL-{GOTO} parser, written in Parsec, now.
03:09:47 <Sgeo> I think, if I ever did get drunk, I'd try to make sure I'd lock out my computer access
03:10:13 <Sgeo> Don't need to end up deleting all muy backupkless files
03:10:28 <cpressey> Or: http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-with-complete-mamas-family-video-library-never,1592/
03:10:48 <alise> <Sgeo> Don't need to end up deleting all muy backupkless files
03:11:10 <Sgeo> Because of typos? Or because I think it's a thing I'd do if I were drunk?
03:14:15 <alise> cpressey: I DID STAGE 60 HAHAHA
03:15:03 <Sgeo> The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. THe quick brown fox jumos over the lazy dog. The quick brown fix jumps over the lazy dog.
03:15:18 <Sgeo> The TH is a typical typo for me anywyas
03:16:59 <Sgeo> If I _am_ drunk, maybe my body's weirdly producing (extra?) alcohol for some reason
03:17:04 <Sgeo> Maybe I should see a doctor
03:19:43 <cpressey> http://aros.sourceforge.net/introduction/index.php
03:19:43 <alise> Sgeo: Uhh ... no ...
03:20:00 <alise> cpressey: AROS' mascot has always disturbed me.
03:20:00 <Sgeo> Well, as far as I know, I have not imbibed alcohol today
03:20:14 <alise> Sgeo: You aren't drunk. At least not on alcohol.
03:20:42 * Sgeo decides that alise is a flip-flopper
03:20:52 <cpressey> I'm also not a fan of having to run it under VirtualBox.
03:20:57 <alise> Sgeo: You said it yourself.
03:21:01 <alise> cpressey: Why do you have to?
03:21:11 <cpressey> alise: Because you have to. It seems.
03:21:20 <alise> Hardware or another VM?
03:21:23 <cpressey> Well, you could install it on the physical machine.
03:21:35 <cpressey> But they had me thinking it was like WINE.
03:21:48 <cpressey> Although, I've never actually *run* WINE...
03:22:14 <cpressey> I'll live with UAE for now. Workbench 1.3 forever! Woo!
03:22:30 <alise> cpressey: WinUAE ftw
03:23:37 <alise> Sgeo: United Arab Emirates
03:26:02 -!- oklopol has joined.
03:26:02 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklofok.
03:26:56 <oklofok> in the set of all species, are there subsets that are cartesian products of sets of cardinality > 1
03:27:05 <alise> oklofok: In two years you owe me £50, bitch.
03:27:19 <oklofok> alise: is it trivially true?
03:27:47 <alise> oklofok: only in a universe of 6
03:27:59 <oklofok> okay let's say at least cardinality 3, and at least 2 sets
03:28:40 <oklofok> cpressey: what's sup is i can't sleep
03:29:20 <oklofok> university starts in a few days, so my brain is on speed
03:30:06 <alise> oklofok: why have you been so absenttt?
03:30:31 <oklofok> well i was in scotland for a week or more, and i've been working and stuff
03:30:46 <alise> oklofok: you've been away for months
03:30:49 <oklofok> i will probably be absent in the near future, too, because of the university thing
03:31:22 <Sgeo> AAAAAAAAAGGGRAAAJJJAAAAGGGG
03:31:33 <Sgeo> I feel like I need to scream for some reason
03:31:56 <alise> Sgeo: have you drunk at a public place today
03:32:09 <alise> oklofok: anyway start coming here more we're all cool now although AnMaster is now Vorpal so watch out
03:32:20 <alise> actually i said that because Sgeo has been acting drunk all day
03:33:10 <oklofok> i figured he just acted drunk (for a Sgeo) for three lines
03:33:22 <oklofok> and you saw right through it
03:33:53 <alise> remember DOT ACTION 2
03:34:03 <Sgeo> alise, how did you learn about Dot Action 2?
03:34:14 <alise> Sgeo: clicking random on dagobah.biz lot
03:34:22 <oklofok> WHY DO I HAVE TO WAIT TILL MONDAY TO GET LECTURE NOTES :((
03:34:26 <alise> s/dagobah.biz lot/dagobah.biz a lot/
03:34:38 <oklofok> it was that trivial game right
03:34:40 <Sgeo> I sometimes go there, but few things from it really stand out
03:34:44 <Sgeo> oklofok, trivial at first game
03:34:45 <alise> oklofok: yes, which you played up to at least stage 98
03:34:48 <alise> oklofok: get playing again
03:35:05 <oklofok> Sgeo: well right, the few levels after 100 were hard according to fizzie, iirc
03:35:28 <Sgeo> You didn't need to put the code for the bonus levels in?
03:35:32 <oklofok> some were hard according to alise, but...
03:35:40 <alise> oklofok: i'm a lot better at it now :P
03:36:04 <alise> oklofok: although me and another have been destroying our thumbs doing 60 (cpressey merely believes it is impossible)
03:36:15 <oklofok> Sgeo: what does "You didn't need to put the code for the bonus levels in?" mean
03:36:26 <cpressey> Not impossible exactly, just beyond my own ability. That is some insane shit right there.
03:36:26 <oklofok> i have never tried the bonus levels
03:36:38 <Sgeo> I thought 101-108 were save code only
03:36:44 <Sgeo> And not actually achievable without it
03:36:56 <alise> oklofok: Sgeo thinks that since 101-108 appear in a separate menu, they absolutely cannot appear after 100 and it isn't cheating to play them before the others
03:37:03 <alise> (well, not cheating, but not in-order play)
03:38:28 <oklofok> i still don't get it, was Sgeo surprised that i managed to play the game without first playing the bonus levels?
03:38:41 <alise> oklofok: no, he thought you completed level 100
03:38:43 <alise> and unlocked the save codes
03:38:49 <alise> which conflicts with his ardent, unjustified beliefs about reality
03:39:06 <oklofok> oh, right, "<alise> oklofok: yes, which you played up to at least stage 98".
03:39:47 <oklofok> i don't think i finished it, the last levels took ages to finish
03:40:16 <oklofok> (which doesn't really imply hard imo)
03:41:37 <Sgeo> `I may ebed to go to sleep soon
03:41:41 <Sgeo> I'm incredibl tired
03:42:02 <oklofok> HackEgo: alise'S thoughts exactly
03:42:22 * Sgeo is laugujing like a maniac
03:42:29 <Sgeo> And thinks typoing is hilarious
03:42:38 <oklofok> so what was that staircase saying
03:42:57 <oklofok> typoing is a serious thing
03:43:16 <alise> Sgeo: what i'm saying is that your drink was probably spiked.
03:43:19 <alise> if there was such a drink.
03:43:45 <oklofok> i went for a slightly more offensive meaning
03:43:46 <Sgeo> There wasn't,, I think
03:44:02 <Sgeo> oklofok, tellmetoellme
03:44:50 <alise> Sgeo: okay, you have ingested /something/ today
03:44:53 <alise> what did you do different from other days
03:44:56 <alise> eat more? less? different?
03:45:12 <Sgeo> I didn't have a chicken sandwich today, since I wasn't at school
03:45:37 <cpressey> Hm. Chicken withdrawal. Yes. Could be serious.
03:45:50 <oklofok> when people drink, they often come to irc, because it's fun. some people seem to consider this some sort of "i'm cool cuz i'm drunk" bragging; i thought alise was doing this sort of considering; i thought the adding of "at a public place" was because people who drink with their friends are the people who brag the most about their drinking
03:45:53 <Sgeo> I had four slices of pizza this morning (or, well, afternoon, since I woke up late)
03:46:00 <alise> oklofok: we'd already confirmed he hadn't drunk
03:46:12 <Sgeo> And had four slices last night\
03:46:16 <alise> Sgeo: pizza is not intoxicating.
03:46:23 <alise> perhaps some ingredient went bad
03:46:25 <alise> the cheese, perhaps
03:46:26 <Sgeo> I'm treating this as a joke
03:46:47 <Sgeo> I think it's more humorous for everyone to act like they think I am drunk
03:47:33 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm just like this when I'm tired
03:47:40 <Sgeo> oklofok, trying to seriously find something wrong
03:47:45 <Sgeo> oklofok, drunk-acty
03:48:00 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to oklowhat.
03:48:41 <oklowhat> Obviously, I'll have to druink
03:48:57 <oklofok> maybe i should define something
03:49:28 <oklowhat> Cause whores to exist. Did I really just ype whores?
03:49:55 <oklowhat> I couldn't see my screen when I typed it, because a rubber hand was in the way
03:50:21 <oklofok> irreducibility of shift space X: for all u, v \in B(X), uwv \in B(X) for some w, where B(X) is the language of words occurring as subwords in the points of X
03:52:25 <oklofok> most of my definitions would require defining shift spaces, and i don't wanna do that because i think i've done it already
03:52:53 <alise> oklofok: if you're doing this for acting, stop. it isn't amusing
03:53:25 <cpressey> shift spaces are the bridge between discrete and continuous mathematics... if I am remembering correctly
03:53:37 <cpressey> Well, one of the bridges anyway
03:54:21 <oklofok> so, to cpressey again, if you have a dynamical system, that is, some sort of space, and a continuous function on it
03:54:43 <oklofok> then you can, sort, of, model it using a shift space, in some cases
03:55:12 <oklofok> how you do this is you partition the continuous space in a finite number of subsets
03:55:14 -!- oklowhat has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:55:47 <oklofok> and then for a point, you record the bi-infinite sequence of subsets it lands in, when you apply the continuous function (we assume it's invertible, makes the theory a bit prettier)
03:56:17 <oklofok> this gives you a point in A^Z, if A is the set of those subsets partitioning the continuous space
03:56:43 <oklofok> and when you do this for all the points in the space
03:57:22 <oklofok> and that subset turns out to be a shift space!
03:58:12 <cpressey> I seem to remember things like regular languages over A to describe the behaviour of those continuous functions (like, if the curve always oscillates between two of the partitions, you have (AB)*)
03:58:38 <cpressey> ok, (AB)* was not the best choice, since A was already used
03:58:47 <oklofok> that's continuous => discrete, then we usually require that going the other way (taking a sequence in A^Z) always gives you exactly one point in the continuous space, this doesn't give you all the continuous space, usually, but it gives you a dense subset
03:59:11 <Sgeo> oklofok, give me a tutorial someday
03:59:24 <cpressey> Going the other way is ... much harder to think about
03:59:28 <oklofok> Sgeo: it's happening already ;)
04:00:15 <Sgeo> I'm too tired and giggly to comprehend anything right now
04:00:21 <Sgeo> Well, giggly gone
04:01:07 <alise> oklofok: i graciously accept your birthday wishes
04:01:23 <oklofok> cpressey: (ab)* couldn't be the language of the shift space, but Y = (ab)* + b(ab)* + (ab)*a could, needs to be closed under factors; in any case yes, that could be the language of an oscillating curve, then you just need to take all the bi-infinite words such that their subwords are in Y, and you get the shift space
04:02:02 <oklofok> so i believe you have been taught this same stuff
04:02:23 <cpressey> oklofok: I never took a course, but I did read some interesting books, which I half-understood.
04:02:33 * Sgeo can't wait to struggle to understand the log tomorrow
04:02:41 <cpressey> Stephen Smale, applications to hardware like disk drives, and stuff...
04:03:31 <oklofok> i haven't actually seen much of the discrete vs continuous stuff, a few definitions (half of which i already sort of gave), and one example of finding a markov partition (markov partition = partition where the language of the shift space happens to be of "finite type") for a space
04:04:25 <oklofok> shift space of finite type means a bi-infinite word is in the language iff all its subwords less than N in length are in a set of allowed words
04:04:40 <oklofok> N and the set of allowed words definining the shift space
04:05:47 <Sgeo> Is there an uncountable infinite discreet space? A countably infinite continuous space? Or are these axiomatically tied in, or is there a theorem?
04:06:04 <oklofok> Sgeo: well, what does discrete mean?
04:06:15 <Sgeo> So definitionally, then
04:06:27 <cpressey> oklofok: Gah, I don't remember all of them. The math library was my half-understood playground at one point... let me think.
04:06:37 <oklofok> discreteness is defined in topology, and once you know the definition, those questions become trivial
04:06:45 <oklofok> if you use that definition
04:07:14 <oklofok> "continuous space" doesn't mean anything, rigorously speaking, afaik
04:07:28 <oklofok> maybe it could mean a perfect space
04:07:44 <oklofok> (no open set is singleton)
04:07:59 <cpressey> oklofok: This was one: http://www.amazon.com/Topology-Computation-Proceedings-Smalefest/dp/0387979328
04:08:52 <oklofok> there are too many books out there, i've never even heard of that one :<
04:09:20 <oklofok> Sgeo: topologically speaking, a discrete space is one where every set is open
04:09:27 <oklofok> "Is there an uncountable infinite discreet space?"
04:09:38 <cpressey> I've always been interested in "the topology of computation" (ill-defined as it is,) so when I saw this book I picked it up
04:09:41 <oklofok> take an uncountably infinite set X
04:10:21 <oklofok> give it the discrete topology, giving us the topological space (X, 2^X) (set of open sets is just the powerset of X, set of all subsets)
04:10:42 <oklofok> then by definition it is discrete
04:10:52 <oklofok> and it's uncountable because X is
04:10:55 <alise> Sgeo: cpressey: http://i.imgur.com/iCSp3.png I WEEP
04:11:19 <oklofok> cpressey: do you know topology?
04:11:42 * Sgeo only knows it as "thingy where you don't tear or fold, but stretch"
04:11:49 <oklofok> alise: that one took a little bit of thinking
04:12:15 <Sgeo> alise, you presumably already consumed a green?
04:12:48 <Sgeo> Yeah, learn to work out which area is the absolutely last one you can go to
04:12:53 <Sgeo> Had to do that on an earlier level
04:13:18 <oklofok> Sgeo: sounds like that might describe topology, yes
04:13:40 <oklofok> although it could describe linear algebra as well...
04:14:05 <Sgeo> I thought linear algebra was matrixes
04:14:26 <alise> <oklofok> let use construct one
04:14:26 <oklofok> linear algebra is linear transformations, matrices are an "implementation" of those
04:14:49 <cpressey> I used to have the "it's all about stretching" understanding of topology. I now have the "it's all about limits" understanding.
04:15:24 <oklofok> i have the "there's a set and a collection of subsets that is closed under union and finite intersection, and the whole set and the empty set are in that collection" understanding
04:15:26 <Sgeo> I know very little topological math
04:15:56 <oklofok> i used to have the "topology is something cool and scary" understanding
04:15:56 <Sgeo> This is what I get for reading books geared towards laypeople
04:16:32 <Sgeo> That's pretty much all I've _ever_ read. Stuff geared towards laypeople
04:16:49 <cpressey> It seems to actually be kind of useless for looking at finite, discrete objects, like say computer programs. You have to treat the object as being infinite or continuous in some respect, I think.
04:17:10 <oklofok> i don't think topology admits an english explanation that is intuitive, unambiguous and at all true
04:17:43 <cpressey> oklofok: Have you read "Counterexamples in Topology"?
04:18:00 <oklofok> been planning to buy it thought because it's famous
04:18:40 <cpressey> I found it entertaining even knowing very little about topology, because... well, counterexamples!
04:18:55 <Sgeo> oklofok is turning into not-actually-drunk me!
04:19:38 * Sgeo likes it when people turn into people
04:20:12 <cpressey> Hm, at the time I was also somewhat interested in... metric spaces? Something close to that. Something with "entourages".
04:20:30 <oklofok> the things with entourages are between topological spaces and metric spaces
04:20:34 <oklofok> they are called uniform spaces
04:20:54 <cpressey> I don't remember why I was interested in them, now :)
04:21:07 <oklofok> the idea is, you can't actually say how close two things are, like in metric spaces, but you can say "these two things are as close to each other are these other two are to each other", which you can't do in a topological space
04:21:50 <oklofok> of course, that comparison in quotes there only works if you do it "in some infinite way", a bit hard to explain what that means :P
04:23:13 <oklofok> you can't actually compare the distances; but you can like get closer to two points at the same rate, in some sense
04:23:19 <oklofok> i really just know the definition, if that...
04:24:47 <oklofok> you can get closer to an infinite amount of points at the same rate?
04:24:55 <oklofok> maybe i should skip the intuitive stuff
04:27:13 <Sgeo> oklofok, you'll have to direct me to some online resources
04:28:08 <oklofok> that's hard to do, i would really just recommend going to uni :\
04:28:23 <oklofok> but maybe i could be more helpful if you knew what you were looking for
04:28:56 <oklofok> for symbolic dynamics, "symbolic dynamics and coding" is an awesome book
04:30:28 <oklofok> although you probably can't read past chapter 3 if you don't know linear algebra, and you probably can't read past chapter 6 unless you're willing to spend a *lot* of time filling in details
04:30:47 <oklofok> (i spend about 1.5 hours on a proof today)
04:32:07 <cpressey> I spent about that much time getting up to speed on Parsec (parser combinator library for Haskell)
04:32:58 <Sgeo> Is it possible to take both grad and undergrad courses as a grad?
04:33:34 <oklofok> in our university, you can do what the fuck you want
04:33:46 <oklofok> but probably you won't get them in your degree
04:34:20 <Sgeo> It should be as easy to learn math online as computer skills...
04:34:36 <cpressey> Actually, I think I took about 2 hours, and most of the day before that, trying to decide if that was what I wanted to waste my time doing this weekend, or not - so I think I'm the one who's slow here :)
04:34:40 <Sgeo> Math is, even more than computer programming, something you can practice at home
04:35:13 <cpressey> I know that sounds soooooo cheesy
04:35:49 <pikhq> cpressey: Cheesy but true.
04:35:59 <oklofok> pikhq: guess what i'm taking this semester
04:36:04 * pikhq has been going for two weeks now
04:36:25 <pikhq> oklofok: And now I have a 4 day weekend.
04:36:37 <pikhq> Inexplicably, we get the day *after* labor day off as well.
04:37:10 <Sgeo> Well, math should be able to fulfill my Arts & Sciences requirements
04:37:16 <pikhq> Clearly, this is to add to the easiness of community college classes.
04:37:19 <Sgeo> Although it's not a science, so...
04:37:23 <pikhq> (mmm, cheap-ass semester)
04:38:26 <oklofok> Sgeo: if you are street smart and want to learn math, you should just take some random math book and start doing exercises like crazy. i can't really make myself do that, i make up for it by being able to stare at things for a long time.
04:38:42 <Sgeo> "street smart"?
04:39:01 <oklofok> Sgeo: i thought if i say smart, you interpret it as "if you're already good at math"
04:39:33 <Sgeo> I'm good in the sense that I comprehend it well.. at least, I think I do.
04:39:52 <Sgeo> I remember nothing that I learned that's more advanced than the basics taught in Calc the Easy Way
04:40:05 * Sgeo distrusts common sense
04:40:41 <Sgeo> But I think I know what you mean
04:40:42 <oklofok> pikhq: hint: you could guess, others couldn't
04:41:24 <pikhq> WHAT THE FUCK WHY DID MY IME STOP WORKING
04:41:48 <oklofok> Sgeo: calc the easy way sounds like a horrible idea
04:41:48 <pikhq> Restart terminal, all is well.
04:42:01 * Sgeo hopes that his neighbors can't hear the sounds coming from his computer
04:42:05 <Sgeo> oklofok, o.O howso?
04:42:15 <Sgeo> Are you saying I massively screwed myself over?
04:42:25 <oklofok> (disclaimer: i didn't start yet)
04:43:13 <oklofok> for instance i don't actually know what you said :D
04:43:29 <oklofok> i don't know any katakana or kanji, memorized all hiragana tho
04:43:44 <pikhq> oklofok: Also: any idea what the cirriculum for that class is like?
04:43:54 <pikhq> Curriculum, I mean.
04:44:06 <Sgeo> oklofok, hello?
04:44:09 <pikhq> There's a lot of awful Japanese programs. I'd like to see a good one.
04:44:27 <oklofok> integrated course in elementary japanese
04:45:02 <pikhq> That's quite slow.
04:45:34 <pikhq> Better than most other programs, though.
04:45:36 <oklofok> really all i care about is that i now have something to memorize with brain full of university energy
04:45:47 <oklofok> Sgeo: err, i'm not saying you screwed yourself over
04:46:12 <pikhq> (among other things, it *doesn't freaking have you use rômasì for long*)
04:46:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
04:46:36 <oklofok> but calculus is something that i encourage everyone to learn as hard a way as possible
04:47:18 <oklofok> pikhq: romasi = english alph?
04:47:39 <pikhq> oklofok: "Roman letters", literal translation.
04:48:03 <pikhq> Also, without the diacritics that is completely incomprehensible.
04:48:20 <pikhq> (rōmaji in the "normal" Hepburn romanisation, BTW)
04:48:45 <pikhq> (aaaand rômazi in Nihonsiki and Kunreisiki)
04:48:56 <oklofok> so wait is the s voiced or not
04:49:58 <pikhq> Hepburn romanisation is the one that is related with English pronounciation.
04:50:23 <oerjan> oklofok: COMM... wait, i already did that. FASC... darn, did that too. PIRATE!
04:50:23 <pikhq> In hiragana, that's ろーまじ.
04:50:30 <oklofok> i'm assuming japanese = lojban, shi = c, j = j, s = s, z = z
04:51:10 <pikhq> Not precise, but not off by much.
04:51:18 <oklofok> i haven't actually heard any japanese after learning any of it
04:51:54 <pikhq> I wish I had a microphone so I could record myself. As it is, I'll have to find a good example.
04:51:56 <oklofok> (because i started today and i don't watch anime)
04:52:22 <cpressey> oerjan: It's a pizza party with a pony parade!
04:52:47 <oklofok> this will probably be an interesting experience, because japanese is the first language i'm actually going to try to learn
04:53:11 <oklofok> everything else i've learned by accident
04:53:32 <oerjan> cpressey: a pizza party with a pony parade is no basis for a system of government
04:54:00 <oklofok> i wish i knew how to make hiragana
04:54:04 <Sgeo> pizzapartyocracy
04:54:07 <oklofok> then me and pikhq could be annoying together
04:54:37 <Sgeo> What was that FRC round with -ocracy where the least fit governed?
04:55:19 <pikhq> oklofok: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR7RS90NmaM&feature=related Here, have something about a Japanese speech contest.
04:55:46 <pikhq> It's the first thing I found that was both natural and relatively simple to listen to.
04:55:55 * Sgeo sleeps on #esoteric
04:57:48 <oklofok> why the fuck didn't i realize that's the natural thing to mean
04:57:53 * Sgeo wonders if his first introduction to nomic was FRC
04:58:14 <pikhq> Oh, right, lojban uses j like that.
04:58:42 <Sgeo> I remember how I found FRC: Someone had a link about learning to play 4-dimensional scrabble
04:58:45 <coppro> FRC is almost not a nomic
04:59:27 <Sgeo> It's possible that that link was on a nomic related page. If so, I'm still kost
05:00:04 <alise> coppro: it's just administrated by a nomic, and is a nomic-esque game
05:01:36 <oklofok> pikhq: what's the clip about btw, idgi :D
05:02:38 <ais523> FRC is a nomic, but just a very weak one
05:03:15 <pikhq> oklofok: Starts with a short blurb on the speaker, and then it's the guy's speech about his various interactions in Japan. Kinda mundane.
05:03:28 <pikhq> Y'know. It's a speech contest for learners of Japanese. Boring shit.
05:03:43 <coppro> I didn't say it wasn't a nomic
05:03:51 <coppro> just close to not a nomic
05:04:34 <pikhq> It was just the best example of how clearly spoken Japanese *sounds* like that I could find on short notice is all.
05:05:22 <pikhq> (BTW, I should note: all the Japanese in there was in fairly clear Standard Japanese, and as such would sound "unaccented")
05:05:39 <pikhq> oklofok: "They do things different in Japan!"
05:06:34 <oklofok> i could make out america and japan, and ippon :D
05:07:27 <pikhq> Only somewhat more interesting than your typical textbook adventures of John Smith and Ichirô Tanaka seeing temples and eating sushi.
05:08:05 <pikhq> Ah, yes. Jōn Sumisu and Ichirō Tanaka.
05:10:36 <oklofok> mearii san wa amerikajin desu
05:12:03 <cpressey> brainfuck mentioned in #haskell
05:12:34 <alise> oklofok: do you have a walkthrough for 64? >__>
05:12:35 <pikhq> Hai, mearī san kà hèikoku kara ki'ta no de, nihonkò tiȳo'to musùkasī tà to omo'teiru ne'.
05:13:00 <pikhq> Ketò sa, hètu ni musùkasikunai sè.
05:13:18 * pikhq loves non-standard romanisation
05:15:51 <oklofok> maybe we should continue this after a few lessons
05:16:10 <pikhq> oklofok: "Yeah, because Mary came from America, she thinks that Japanese is hard, y'know? But really, it's not all that hard."
05:17:05 <pikhq> oklofok: BTW, the ` diacritic after a consonant is the ﾞ in kana.
05:17:23 <oklofok> so what i'm used to seeing as "ga"
05:17:28 <pikhq> (in pikhq-romanisation)
05:17:57 <pikhq> And the - over a letter is the katakana ー, which elongates a vowel.
05:18:07 <pikhq> ... Wait, I did it all wrong.
05:18:23 <pikhq> - should be the small kana indicator.
05:18:34 <pikhq> I can't even do it right. XD
05:18:35 <oklofok> is kana the same as hiragana
05:18:45 <pikhq> Hiragana is one of two forms of kana.
05:19:12 <pikhq> Here, lemme just stick that in Hiragana.
05:20:23 <pikhq> はい、 めありい さん が べいこく から きたので、にほんご ちょっと むずかしい と 思っている ねっ。
05:20:36 <oklofok> i'm rather slow, but let's see
05:20:42 <pikhq> けど さ、 べつに むずかしくない ぜ。
05:21:05 <pikhq> Or, in normal Japanese: (:P)
05:21:22 <oklofok> also those are rather different-looking hiragana than the ones i've seen, so i'm even slower
05:21:49 <oklofok> mainly they are smaller :P
05:21:58 <pikhq> はい、メアリーさんが米国から来たので、日本語がちょっと難しいと思っているねっ。
05:25:39 <oklofok> (i got to the part you corrected)
05:30:27 <oklofok> yay i read it without understanding it.
05:32:17 <cpressey> Project! Term-rewriting language with strict typing. Describe the type system with rewriting rules!
05:36:16 <pikhq> I appear to have come down with a cold!
05:36:49 <oerjan> a bitching cold, the worst kind
05:38:47 * pikhq goes to get some cold medicine and munch.
05:43:33 <alise> <cpressey> Project! Term-rewriting language with strict typing. Describe the type system with rewriting rules!
05:43:57 <oerjan> the type system got terminally rewritten
05:45:00 <cpressey> Rho was sort of supposed to have this in a nasty unclear way.
05:45:43 <alise> cpressey: the problem is, what is typed?
05:45:45 <alise> there are no functions
05:45:48 <alise> so it's hard to imagine what you type
05:46:22 <alise> mine had functions initially being (forall a, b, c, ... a|(a,b)|(a,b,c)|... -> forall r, r)
05:46:26 <alise> and then they got refined gradually
05:47:13 * pikhq wants to breath again dammi
05:47:49 <oerjan> breathing is _so_ last millennium
05:48:47 * oerjan wonders if "... is _so_ last ..." is _so_ last millennium
05:52:21 <pikhq> Nö, büt yöü nëëd tö mäkë ït mörë mëtäl.
06:02:18 <alise> oklofok: CHALLENGE: COMPLETE XJUMP
06:02:48 <Sgeo> Is the graph of e^xi just a circle?
06:03:43 <Sgeo> Ok, Wolfram alpha has the real and imaginary parts be sin-like
06:03:57 <Sgeo> Actually, that's kind of obvious >.>
06:04:05 <Sgeo> real is cos, imag is sine
06:04:24 <Sgeo> How would it look on a nice 3d graph, though?
06:05:31 <alise> http://dame.dyndns.org/misc/xjump/
06:05:38 <alise> Anyone who can get 100 on this is a god.
06:05:38 <oerjan> Sgeo: ...like a spiral?
06:06:10 <Sgeo> alise, why are you awake?
06:06:34 <alise> Sgeo: Why shouldn't I be?
06:06:45 <Sgeo> Because it's late at night for you?
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06:12:30 <alise> who the hell are YOU
06:12:31 <lament> i forgot this channel existed! until somebody randomly mentioned miss piggy.
06:12:44 <alise> lament: ah yes, the banned one.
06:13:20 <alise> unless oerjan unbanned (s)h/it; I forget
06:13:33 <alise> lament: yes, she spammed "FUCK YOU" for about 50 lines
06:13:41 <oerjan> not currently banned, no
06:13:50 <alise> after showing clear signs of utter mental insanity several times before and basically freaking out on everyone else
06:13:58 <alise> we were at the 2 breakdowns/day stage
06:14:06 <alise> lament: DON'T SAY SHE SHE'LL GET ANGRY
06:14:18 <alise> (she yelled at me and augur for PRESUMING HER GENDER)
06:14:25 <alise> lament cpressey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
06:15:28 <cpressey> lament: I've been wondering where you were...
06:15:55 * Sgeo begins mentally playing that song from Falcon's Eye
06:16:25 <alise> dfgsdfgojdifgoisfdjg it's 6am
06:16:28 <lament> cpressey: after getting a job as a programmer, i lost all interest in programming
06:16:33 <alise> Sgeo: why have you played falcon's eye?
06:16:41 <cpressey> lament: Good grief. I know what that's like
06:16:45 <Sgeo> I haven't [much]
06:16:56 <Sgeo> lament, stop trying to convince me that alise is right
06:17:04 <alise> lament: it's a good thing that nobody talks about programming languages here, then
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06:17:16 <Sgeo> I should go look for my phone
06:17:22 <alise> lament: both you and oklofok came back on the same day
06:17:31 <cpressey> Yeah, it's mostly about Japanese and how Sgeo is drunk.
06:17:38 <augur> i have a dildo that smells like jones strawberry lime soda. just fyi.
06:17:54 <alise> And the gay sex is back!
06:18:14 <alise> Captain, I hypothesise that we are, in fact, going BACKWARDS through the fourth dimension... that is to say, time.
06:18:39 <alise> If we do not take action soon, we will find ourselves in a time when there IS no #esoteric, and the process will be irreversible.
06:18:59 <alise> And it's 6am, so I'm talking schizophrenically. Just like old times ...
06:19:07 <lament> the direction of decreasing entropy? sounds pretty nice
06:19:38 <Sgeo> I thought we established that I'm not actually drunk?
06:19:43 <Sgeo> No matter how drunk I may seem
06:19:58 <alise> lament: Yes... but increasing... PRIMITIVENESS.
06:20:33 <Sgeo> Maybe we can go back before PHP was invented. Or before X was invented
06:20:40 <Sgeo> Stop these atrocities from being committed
06:21:00 <alise> Captain! I'm picking up unusual sensor readings! It appears that, as our "bubble" of #esoteric is travelling forwards in time compared to the backwards flow of outside the bubble -- otherwise, we would experience things as normal, both sides being switched -- we are ADDING entropy, yet as entropy OUTSIDE the channel is decreasing, there is nowhere for it to go!
06:21:03 <cpressey> Well, I'm trying to compile C code under Amiga Workbench 1.3. That has to count for something.
06:21:15 <alise> I estimate that entropy will take over our channel entirely in... 3.6 hours.
06:21:24 <alise> What shall we do, Captain?!?!?!?!?!
06:22:27 <oerjan> this may appear like a shocking and unexpected suggestion to you, but if the polarity of entropy is currently the wrong way...
06:23:19 <alise> What are you suggesting, Number One?
06:23:29 <alise> (Pretend the captain said that. Whoever e is.)
06:23:47 <oerjan> We might then try to reverse the polarity.
06:24:43 <cpressey> lament: At one time, you implemented Thue in Javascript -- is this true?
06:25:58 <cpressey> http://web.archive.org/web/20031210145310js_/http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.js
06:26:18 <cpressey> lament: What license can I consider this code to be under?
06:26:22 <alise> oerjan: It could work. However, there has been an overload in the temporal dynamics systems, and the entropy explosion would be immense. We would have to exit the bubble, exposing ourselves to high levels of positron radiation.
06:26:23 <lament> and the corresponding .html
06:26:24 <oerjan> you and your time-traveling powers
06:26:30 <alise> The hull would likely collapse.
06:26:56 <Sgeo> alise, you could have written technobabble for Voyager!
06:27:15 <lament> cpressey: er, public domain i suppose
06:27:28 <lament> you need to pay me $10000000000 to use it
06:27:47 <oerjan> alise: maybe if we _also_ reverse parity, switching matter and antimatter. this might be achieved by taking a detour through a mirror dimension.
06:27:54 <cpressey> I don't *think* I have $10000000000...
06:28:11 <alise> Sgeo: "It is made of anti-time. And it is giving off anti-time radiation."
06:28:13 <cpressey> Because I suspect I'd be a lot happier, if I did.
06:28:37 <alise> oerjan: Grapple with the Terran Empire? But the production team forgot to switch the main titles!
06:29:52 <lament> cpressey: money can't buy happiness
06:30:31 <oerjan> alise: but if we do it _before_ reversing polarity, while entropy is still decreasing - then they would actually appear to be trying to help us. in a weird way.
06:30:32 <alise> But it can buy an awful lot of booze and hookers!
06:30:34 <lament> i know this because after the last guy to use my Thue interpreter paid me $10000000000, i'm not really any happier
06:31:00 <alise> oerjan: Removing fatal phaser shots from our cold, dead bodies! Interesting.
06:31:09 <alise> Let's just wait for someone to claim to be the captain and give it the go-ahead.
06:33:18 <Sgeo> I may need to charge -$10 dollars for users of PSOX
06:33:32 <cpressey> Actually, passed level 12 now.
06:34:36 <ais523> lament: how many bits is the number in which that usage charge is stored? and is it signed or unsigned?
06:35:13 <cpressey> To compile C code on the Amiga, you need headers for the AmigaOS API. They're not freely distributable, but you can recreate them from the "FD" files that ship with AmigaBASIC, with the help of a utlity program called FixFD which appears on Fred Fish disk #183.
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06:40:38 <cpressey> lament: Dare I ask -- what language(s) are you programming in, in your job?
06:41:38 <lament> the coolest thing i did recently was try to debug postscript
06:42:31 <cpressey> I know C++, and I know /of/ ObjC, but I didn't know they could be... combined. But I know that Postscript is much cooler than both :)
06:43:22 <lament> they're just combined the natural way
06:43:35 <lament> the resulting language has two completely separate object systems
06:43:56 <lament> two separate exception handling systems, even two boolean types (bool and BOOL)
06:46:05 <zzo38> Sometimes C is used, or C++, or Objective C, or even Objective C++. But I prefer Enhanced CWEB (compiling in C mode). There is also D, and is there Objective D++?
06:46:08 <lament> yeah, it's not so bad in practice
06:46:51 <lament> just parts of code are written in straight c++, and parts in objc, and interfacing them is easy
06:46:57 <zzo38> But it can be sometimes useful to mix things from different program languages
06:50:13 <zzo38> But sometimes it cannot be done, using the normal way..... I have sometimes found myself wanting to use GOTO in program languages that doesn't have it, use some features of Forth in other programming langauges, and even once INTERCAL stuff!
06:51:19 <oerjan> i had sort of heard the point of D was to get _rid_ of C++'s object system
06:51:29 <oerjan> (well one point at least)
06:51:46 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I think that was one point, there are others, too.
06:52:01 <oerjan> which means Objective D++ makes no sense
06:52:50 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I know, but I am a bit crazy and I think of crazy ideas sometimes
06:53:12 <zzo38> To me, Enhanced CWEB is good enough for these kind of things, Objective C++ is not needed
06:53:31 <cpressey> I may be wrong about FixFd. I think the header files it creates are for assembly-language programs. :/ But I know I've done this before, there is a tool out there somewhere that can do it.
06:53:32 <zzo38> But I have nothing against if someone else wants to use a different program language
06:54:36 <zzo38> So, none of you have opinion about TeXnicard, because you only use LaTeX? Is that correct?
06:55:50 <cpressey> With things like a ≡ b &union; c.
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06:58:32 <zzo38> For simple on-screen formatting, HTML works OK. And even for more complicated interactive stuff, HTML can be used (but it should not be overused!). HTML files can be printed as well. But TeX is more better, for many things!
06:58:55 <cpressey> I found a "Munching Squares" program for the Amiga!
06:59:17 <zzo38> cpressey: You probably can, they are generally simple programs and can be found for various systems
07:00:06 <cpressey> zzo38: I used LaTeX a long time ago. With the AMS extensions (AMSLaTeX?) It was a huge pain to set up on the OS I was using at the time (FreeBSD).\
07:01:44 <zzo38> I make TeXnicard because there are many things about Magic Set Editor which I do not like.
07:02:37 <zzo38> So, TeXnicard can be seen as one alternative program that can be used for a similar function.
07:03:12 <zzo38> TeXnicard allows you to combine TeX, METAFONT, Forth, ImageMagick, and WEB.
07:11:04 <zzo38> When I write a program, it is the computer's job to automate everything but it is the user's job to think for themself. This is contrary to many modern programs, in which the computer tries to do both jobs, which isn't very good in my opinion.
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07:18:34 <cpressey> I actually think the thing that translates .FD -> .h is called "LibTool", on Fish Disk #393. But, it's late, I could be wrong.
07:19:29 <cpressey> Also, I'm sure I'm the only one who cares :D
07:20:21 <cpressey> Got a hankerin' to be buildin' me some C programs on an operating system that's been obsolete for 15 years!
07:22:11 <cpressey> Hm, I wonder if there were any Forths for the Amiga, on those Fish disks?
07:24:10 <cpressey> Heh! False appeared on Fred Fish Disk #885! I did not know that.
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07:49:16 <zzo38> BytePusher is not pure non-arithmetic, because addition is still required to execute an instruction.
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09:37:27 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if for all acts of pedantry there exists a Wikipedian who will try to put it into force
09:38:17 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i guess the big well that's not too bad but
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11:17:07 <oklofok> in my dream, alise and cpressey sent me a postcard that was an invite to come explore the "natural hoovers" of another universe (natural hoover being a technical term for an inverse volcano)
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12:12:25 <Vorpal> oklofok, rather unusual dream
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12:19:28 <oklofok> Vorpal: there were less unusual elements, like things falling in the ocean and me having to dive quickly to catch the important items
12:19:49 <oklofok> i'm sure that means i'm searching for long lost love
12:20:03 <olsner> or maybe it means you're turning batshit insane
12:20:46 <oklofok> when i got the postcard, the first thing i said was "what the fuck, i have to pay a receiver's fee?!?"
12:21:12 <oklofok> (i was recently in scotland, where phones start doing that)
12:21:17 <olsner> (my sister rebooted my computer trying to turn on the screens, so I'm missing some history, like the actual description of the dream)
12:21:27 <olsner> it's also how SMS:es work in the US
12:21:47 <oklofok> so what people can just make you pay
12:21:55 <olsner> yep, as I understand it's free to send them, but it costs to receive them
12:22:07 <oklofok> but do they have the option of not receiving them
12:22:27 <oklofok> i mean otherwise if you give someone your phone number, they can just make you pay millions of dollars for fun
12:22:40 <olsner> I guess they have to, it'd be crazy otherwise
12:23:04 <oklofok> well then again i heard all americanos are stupids so?
12:24:18 <olsner> well, obviously... so maybe no-one's figured out how to exploit it yet
12:24:37 <olsner> that would explain how a system like that still works
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12:57:23 <Vorpal> } else if (c != KEY_VIEW);
12:57:44 <Vorpal> and I think that is obfuscated, rather than buggy
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13:42:10 * oerjan lols at the darths & droids punchline
13:46:12 <oerjan> oklofok: are you trying to get banned?
13:47:57 <oklofok> Sgeo_: my solution to megavideo's time limit: connect via uni
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15:36:51 <nooga> i hate circuit analysis
15:39:11 <oklopol> what kind of circuit analysis
15:39:36 <oklopol> the kind where you solve 15 variable equations manually
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15:42:47 <oerjan> god of extreme overconfidence
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15:55:02 <alise> 23:49:16 <zzo38> BytePusher is not pure non-arithmetic, because addition is still required to execute an instruction.
15:57:32 <cpressey> oklopol: We didn't want to keep the exquisite pleasures of these natural hoovers all to ourselves!
15:58:11 <cpressey> alise: (Don't tell him about how my brother is in the natural hoover tourism trade.)
15:59:36 <oerjan> alise: don't worry about that, natural hoovers suck something terrible
16:00:04 <oklopol> i don't actually know what they suck
16:01:06 <oerjan> lots of rocks and the occasional tourist, i think
16:10:11 <oerjan> googling for natural hoover gives a page about tornados http://82sluggowin.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/if-you-cannot-find-shelter-lay-face-down-in-a-ditch-and-cover-your-head-with-your-hands/
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16:27:34 <cpressey> I'm an idiot. Here I am going through all these contortions to find heirloom AmigaOS API header files, when if all I'm going to do is compile ANSI C sources on the platform, I shouldn't need them!
16:28:01 <oklopol> HOLY SHIT TORNADO WARNING!
16:28:17 <oklopol> that would make an awesome meme
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16:44:20 <pikhq> oklopol: BTW: good work on learning hiragana before the class starts. That alone gets rid of most of the egregious pronunciation errors.
16:44:26 <pikhq> alise: Sick is all.
16:45:23 * pikhq hates how some courses use nothing but rômasì.
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16:46:32 <alise> is s pronounced as English j?
16:47:22 <pikhq> alise: The ` diacritic notes that the "si" mora is voiced. And because the "si" mora is pronounced more like "shi", the voiced version is more like "ji".
16:48:05 <pikhq> alise: This is, of course, all in non-standard romanisation. One which follows Japanese orthography a bit closer than is needed. :P
16:48:54 <pikhq> (among other things, it makes conjugations and common pronunciation changes in words significantly easier than standard romanisation schemes.)
16:49:20 <pikhq> (... At the expense of being completely unuseful to the unwashed masses)
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16:51:44 <alise> pikhq: ROMANISE THIS: ドット新死エディション
16:52:19 <pikhq> alise: Tò'to sinn si etèīsiȳonn
16:52:36 <alise> Why do the _'d letters show as sans here >_<
16:52:55 <alise> *(And bigger, too)
17:01:02 <wareya> As much as I love C, its structures suck.
17:01:02 <pikhq> madbrain2: "Dot -- Super Death Edition".
17:01:20 <pikhq> Hey, wait, I've got compose.
17:01:29 <pikhq> "Dot — Super Death Edition"
17:02:02 <pikhq> madbrain2: You fail at Unicode.
17:02:09 <pikhq> Can't even display English text.
17:03:13 <pikhq> “Dot — Super Death Edition”
17:04:57 <pikhq> Right quotation mark, em dash, left quotation mark.
17:05:47 <cpressey> Dude, even *I* can see *em dashes*.
17:06:04 <cpressey> Although, L and R quotation marks look the same to me :/
17:06:15 <pikhq> cpressey: That's just a font matter.
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17:09:34 <pikhq> madbrain2: Make it stop.
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17:16:51 <cpressey> I just build 'cat' under AmigaOS 1.3
17:17:26 <cpressey> (I needed to build a fully profiled version because I haven't yet found a non-profiling-enabled amiga13.lib)
17:18:18 <madbrain2> It's like twice as good as any version of courier new
17:18:34 <alise> yeah that's ... not saying ... much ... ... anything ...
17:21:19 <madbrain2> oklopol: might be an interesting choice yeah
17:23:17 <alise> oklopol: do you still have everything in that theme
17:23:22 <alise> white on black consolas
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17:23:55 <oklopol> no. computer broked so it went as i mentioned.
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17:24:25 <alise> oklopol: i was just hoping the timeline was restored :'(
17:25:07 <oklopol> so alise did you get those new wishing stones and witch wands we were talking about for our esoterica evening
17:25:21 <alise> I sacrificed ALL the goats.
17:25:25 <alise> All of them. Every single one.
17:25:32 <alise> kareem: in case you can't tell, we're talking about programming. hello.
17:25:43 <oklopol> ...didn't we talk about doing that TOGETHER
17:26:07 <alise> I thought you were going to find the holy human sacrifice...
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17:34:09 <cpressey> Drat, I didn't even get a chance to tell him that DICE isn't handling the insanity that is RUBE.c very well
17:36:18 <Sgeo_> alise, what if you scared off someone who _was_ interested in esoteric programming languages?
17:36:24 <Sgeo_> Actually, I should blame oklopol
17:36:41 <oklopol> we have too many people here already
17:37:22 <alise> yes let's ban oklopol
17:37:41 <oklopol> that would teach me to speak crapshit
17:37:55 <fizzie> From somewhere, don't remember where: "Of course non-English speakers often want special characters. The problem is there are too many of them (characters, not non-English speakers)."
17:39:48 <pikhq> fizzie: There's plenty of special characters in English, you naïve fool.
17:40:32 <fizzie> But do English speakers really *want* them?
17:42:42 <fizzie> IIRC, in the context of the original quote "special" would mean "non-ASCII"; but really, I don't remember where it was from.
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17:48:53 <alise> The café was staffed by naïve fools; I had no hope of gaining their coöperation.
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17:53:59 <cpressey> Once again, I am an idiot. "Note that you may compile 1.3 programs with the 2.0 amiga.lib as long as you avoid 2.0-specific calls."
17:54:06 <cpressey> Once again, I am an idiot. "Note that you may compile 1.3 programs with the 2.0 amiga.lib as long as you avoid 2.0-specific calls."
17:54:27 <cpressey> And an idiot a third time for repeating myself.
17:56:53 <cpressey> Alas. Dice is still generating assembly which it cannot itself assemble.
18:06:03 <Vorpal> hm the signal value in dBm for wlan networks is always negative isn't it?
18:06:21 <Vorpal> like: -60 dBm or similar
18:07:52 <Vorpal> so why did it claim 4dBm for one network in the list of networks... in iwlist scanning output that is. Presumably a fluke since doing a second scan showed a more usual value
18:08:33 <fizzie> Wikipedia's helpful table has "-10 to -30 dBm" as a typical maximum for wifi. 0 dBm would mean 1 mW of power; the same table lists that as the typical power of Bluetooth radio at 1 m distance.
18:08:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, doing a second scan had it at -88 dBm
18:08:57 <cpressey> (well, bef.c and maentw.c-with-tweaks compile, but that's not much of a joy since they were originally developed under dice)
18:09:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, 4 dBm seems rather unlikely
18:10:38 <fizzie> It does, especially if it's at -88 dBm "normally".
18:12:29 <Vorpal> ah yes, the noise ratio seems strange too, was at -40 dBm at that point, which is odd, since my card doesn't report the noise...
18:12:48 <Vorpal> (it always report -127 dBm for the noise)
18:12:53 <Vorpal> (except here it seems)
18:13:36 <cpressey> w00t, sally2c compiles! Getting it to run, and seeing if the code it generates compiles too, is another matter...
18:13:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, is sally some esolang?
18:14:15 <cpressey> No, no. God forbid I be on-topic here.
18:14:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, so what is sally2c then
18:14:56 <cpressey> It's a compiler for a language I designed in the late 90's
18:15:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, you designed a non-esolang?
18:16:04 <Vorpal> oh that about it not being an esolang was a joke then?
18:16:19 <fizzie> The phone's /proc/net/wireless lists -46 and -95 (presumably dBm) for "level" and "noise" when the phone's ~1.5 m from the wlan access point.
18:16:39 <oklopol> cpressey never meant any of his languages to be esolangs, they were just ahead of their time. that's why, this time, cpressey waited 20 years before making a compiler
18:16:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, too close will cause problems too iirc
18:17:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and, how good is the built in antenna?
18:17:20 <oklopol> well i guess it isn't exactly "late 2010's" yet but anyway
18:17:34 <Vorpal> judging from the quality of wlan on other phones, it would be rather bad
18:17:37 <oklopol> so maybe cpressey is just one decade smarter than the rest of us
18:18:13 <cpressey> I design languages. Some of them are indisputably esoteric. Some of them are not indisputably so.
18:18:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: No clue, but from anecdotal evidence, I think it gets better wlan reception than my iBook. And definitely better than one PCMCIA wlan card, but then again that was one pretty horrible card.
18:18:32 <cpressey> I wrote the compiler for Sally back in the 90's too, but I'm only now trying to compile it for the Amiga.
18:19:19 <cpressey> oklopol: Maybe I'm kind of like Sousa, who meant all of his marches to be romantic love songs, but they turned out to be... marches
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18:19:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, not sure about ibooks but based on casual observation macbooks tend to have rather good built in wlan. Same for thinkpads as well.
18:20:56 <oklopol> cpressey: maybe he had never been in love
18:20:58 <cpressey> Sgeo_: Wait, does LambdaMOO have anything to do with functional programming? Or did they put "Lambda" in the name for no reason?
18:21:45 <alise> cpressey: But Sally is crap!
18:21:56 <alise> cpressey: Nothing to do with FP as far as I know.
18:22:01 <Sgeo_> It's been a while since I looked at the language. Not sure if you cna write map in it. It's much more like a .. Self thing than functional
18:22:32 <Sgeo_> LambdaMOO is a specific moo
18:25:54 <cpressey> alise: it's written in C, is my main constraint. Apparent rube.c is too complex to be compiled by dice.
18:26:25 <cpressey> Sgeo_: I figured it was a MOO, but thought maybe its scripting language was Lisp, or something
18:30:10 <cpressey> alise: Sally 2 will not be crap. OTOH, it will probably not be called Sally :/
18:32:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, which platform was DICE for?
18:35:57 <cpressey> and sally2c runs and generates C code and dice can compile that code and the example programs run and I can compute factorial with it! So my nominal goal for the weekend of "compile one of my languages that wasn't developed on the Amiga, on an Amiga," has been completed
18:37:33 <cpressey> alise: At level 18 or so. Need cheat code! Computer spontaneously shut down earlier.
18:37:48 <olsner> sounds like a nice weekend goal
18:37:49 <alise> cpressey: http://jayisgames.com/archives/2007/04/dot_action_2.php#walkthrough
18:37:59 <alise> olsner: Dot Action 2 is a LIFE goal
18:38:11 <olsner> alise: I meant the amiga one
18:39:47 <olsner> but, but ... then why did you sound like you didn't?
18:40:10 <alise> olsner: DOT ACTION 2 IS A SUPERIOR GOAL BECAUSE IT IS A LIFE GOAL NOT A WEEKEND GOAL
18:40:37 <cpressey> oh god i forgot stage 18 is horrible
18:41:07 <alise> Dude this shit is easy :|
18:41:15 <olsner> I don't care about dot action 2, what is dot action 2 and why are you talking in all-caps?
18:41:39 <alise> olsner: Dot Action 2 is http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ and it is the only thing that matters.
18:42:35 * Sgeo_ pushes alise onto a yellow dot
18:42:37 <alise> It is a simple game: collect the blue dots by running with the arrow keys and jumping with space. The yellow/orange dots kill you unless you get a red dot, which lasts until the ZET timer runs out. The green dot flips the entire playfield upside-down. Grey blocks are water, and you can swim in them by jumping.
18:42:39 <cpressey> alise: Timing the spacebar in the 1-cell-deep water? Maybe for you!
18:42:42 <alise> If the time runs out, you lose.
18:42:52 <alise> If you fall down past the bottom of the level, you lose.
18:42:56 <alise> HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA GOOD LUCK SUCKER
18:43:06 <alise> cpressey: No timing required.
18:43:10 <olsner> ok, I've loaded the page, so how do you start the game?
18:43:13 <alise> Beat you spacebar to death.
18:43:23 <alise> olsner: Press space in the Flash until you get to the level selection screen.
18:43:34 <alise> The number on the bottom is the NNN-NNN save code; use the second menu item to load this again.
18:43:37 <alise> (It changes each level.)
18:43:49 <alise> olsner: Enter pauses; you can continue or end the level.
18:43:54 <alise> And yes, it gets much, MUCH harder.
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18:44:02 <alise> There are 100 levels and 8 further bonus levels. You will die.
18:44:18 <cpressey> Many, many times, you will die.
18:45:19 <alise> I am on to stage 66. There are many ahead of me, yet I am already nearly spent.
18:46:46 <olsner> I almost got to the end of level 1 but then I fell through the gap in the floor, so I think I'll just give up here
18:47:08 <alise> Many have said that.
18:47:12 <alise> You will be playing again soon.
18:47:33 <olsner> how? I have forgotten the address
18:48:06 <alise> http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/
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18:49:04 <Sgeo_> ideone.com has support for Factor. It also hasn support for Falcon
18:49:34 <cpressey> Sgeo_: Clearly we need a "Falctorn"
18:52:44 <cpressey> There must be an implementation of Falctorn which runs on the BBC Micro, because "Acorn" is also embedded in that word.
18:54:12 <cpressey> Actually I've never played with any of that RISC OS stuff.
18:54:46 <alise> Acorn has nothing to do with the BBC Micro...
18:55:23 <alise> Oh, they did? Okay.
18:56:07 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Factor is to Forth as Haskell is to Lisp. Except, I'm lying.
18:58:05 <cpressey> Any relation to Haskell, I wonder
18:58:25 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Wikipedia seems to think it was
18:59:25 * Sgeo_ thought it was Haskell Curry for some reason >.>
18:59:52 <Sgeo_> Oh, two people sharing the same name
19:00:49 <alise> haskell is named after haskell curry, obviously
19:00:56 <cpressey> alise: Are you still pro-picoLisp? (Because I can't think for myself, and I need to know if a language has the Alise Stamp of Doesn't-Entirely-Suck before I start bothering with it)
19:01:24 <alise> cpressey: It's certainly interesting. Read the wiki; all of it. http://www.picolisp.org/5000/-2.html (It's not very big.)
19:01:26 <cpressey> Two people sharing a surname? UNHEARD OF
19:02:03 <alise> cpressey: The front page, http://software-lab.de/radical.pdf, "Articles & Essays", a lot of the documentation, and the part of the book that has been written are all interesting.
19:02:21 <alise> cpressey: And this forum post: http://www.picolisp.org/5000/-2-L.html
19:02:25 <ais523> what languages do fall into alise's entirely-suck category?
19:02:36 <alise> ais523: Hmm... PHP.
19:02:41 <ais523> I can guess a few, but there are probably more
19:02:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: C++ has a shred of C in it, so it can't fall entirely there
19:02:47 <alise> ais523: ooh, do guess!
19:02:55 <alise> I'm always interested in meeting the little version of me people have in their heads.
19:02:56 <ais523> I was going to put LOLCODE up there
19:03:09 <alise> Actually, LOLCODE is a great language if you replace the syntax with regular keywords.
19:03:11 <alise> Seriously. I tried it once.
19:03:20 <ais523> yep, I've heard some people saying that it's a decent lang in a bad syntax
19:03:35 <ais523> isn't it rather similar to Lua, if you don't take the syntax into account?
19:04:16 <alise> it has types and stuff
19:04:18 <alise> (although not static)
19:04:24 <alise> it's relatively unique in its oddness
19:04:27 <alise> especially its loop construct
19:04:35 <alise> ais523: and its conditionals; "if" looks at an implicit variable
19:04:38 <alise> so you do things like
19:05:09 <ais523> hmm, a sort of "discarded result of last expression" variable?
19:05:11 <cpressey> alise: C++ entirely sucks. Sorry.
19:05:27 <cpressey> C cannot survive that kind of pollution.
19:06:26 <cpressey> I don't know enough about D to say.
19:06:52 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I'm guessing Plain English
19:07:16 <cpressey> And what is that one that's like the name of a greek god or something but misspelled?
19:07:58 <oklopol> alise: are you happy now, i'm hooked
19:08:07 <oklopol> "<alise> oklopol: wat" <<< dot
19:08:47 <oklopol> 30 levels passed or something
19:09:58 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: It was designed by an economist to do economics math and stuff
19:10:11 <Sgeo_> <3 United DJs vs Pandora
19:10:23 <cpressey> No, R looks OK by comparison. This was BancStar-level
19:10:34 <alise> oklopol: yay you are addicted again
19:10:34 <cpressey> And I'm thinking it's probably not a Greek god :/
19:10:51 <alise> <ais523> hmm, a sort of "discarded result of last expression" variable? ;; something like that
19:11:17 <alise> ais523: i think only conditionals assigned it
19:11:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover, alise: The author used it personally for a long time, described it as "mature" so he decided to make it public
19:11:41 <ais523> alise: like a flag variable in asm, then?
19:11:44 <cpressey> alise: You introduced me to it
19:12:19 <ais523> I've only had tangential experience with it, but STATA is somewhere between C++ and BANCStar on the scale of awfulness
19:12:32 <ais523> made worse by the fact that it's actually used seriously
19:12:45 <ais523> imagine a lang which not only has Mathematica syndrome, but no redeeming features whatsoever
19:13:01 <ais523> (for instance, arrays are implemented by dynamically generating variable names at runtime and using eval)
19:13:16 <cpressey> alise: Yes, I'm pretty sure you gave me the link, months ago
19:13:24 <alise> cpressey: describe it more
19:13:27 <cpressey> I might actually have it bookmarked, at work
19:14:09 <cpressey> alise: OK, designed by an economist, for his personal use doing economist-type math, extrEEEMELY horrible syntax, name is a misspelled version of some english word or name
19:14:42 <alise> cpressey: what kind of site did it have?
19:14:57 <cpressey> alise: Plain HTML I think, in the UK I think
19:15:07 <alise> ais523: It's that one!
19:15:10 <alise> With the bunch of characters
19:15:20 <alise> http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/
19:15:34 <ais523> I don't think it's completely devoid of bad ideas, though
19:15:37 <alise> Uhh, a misspelled Disney antagonist, then.
19:15:46 <ais523> it's more like C++; there are good ideas in there somewhere, but buried too deeply to actually by useful
19:16:57 <cpressey> Yes, there doesn't appear to be a Greek goddess named Ursula, at least not one of note
19:18:09 <cpressey> http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/queen.fun
19:19:08 <cpressey> Good ideas buried under something that matches Befunge and False for readability
19:19:35 <cpressey> Outstrips, really, not matches
19:19:37 <ais523> isn't "ursula" latin for "little bear"?
19:20:16 <Sgeo_> I'm going to go read up on D'ni history
19:20:47 <Sgeo_> Why does the real world hold no interest for me?
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19:22:09 <Sgeo_> I think, as far as science goes, all new real-world science is inaccessible to people without insane equipment
19:22:23 <Sgeo_> However, in Second Life, I can perform experiments to my heart's desire
19:22:29 <madbrain2> well, we did the easy science first of course :D
19:22:55 <cpressey> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life
19:23:05 <cpressey> I find something about this site disturbing
19:24:08 <cpressey> It's such an uncreative use of time
19:24:32 <cpressey> And the result is a massive "cookbook"
19:24:35 <cpressey> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Create_a_two-dimensional_array_at_runtime
19:25:30 <Sgeo_> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Apply_a_callback_to_an_array
19:25:36 <Sgeo_> Why do they call it a "callback"?
19:25:45 <Sgeo_> That's not what I think of when I see "callback"
19:27:55 <cpressey> awk 'func psqr(x){print x,x*x}BEGIN{split("1 2 3 4 5",a);for(i in a)psqr(a[i])}'
19:28:10 <cpressey> !awk 'func psqr(x){print x,x*x}BEGIN{split("1 2 3 4 5",a);for(i in a)psqr(a[i])}'
19:28:58 <fizzie> Doesn't HackEgo run with the backtick?
19:29:29 <cpressey> `awk 'func psqr(x){print x,x*x}BEGIN{split("1 2 3 4 5",a);for(i in a)psqr(a[i])}'
19:30:22 <cpressey> awk: line 2: function psqr never defined
19:32:16 <fizzie> `run awk 'function psqr(x){print x,x*x}BEGIN{split("1 2 3 4 5",a);for(i in a)psqr(a[i])}' 2>&1
19:32:18 <HackEgo> 1 1 \ 2 4 \ 3 9 \ 4 16 \ 5 25
19:32:49 <fizzie> Anyhow, `run with 2>&1 is a good combination for error messages.
19:33:21 <fizzie> Also "function", but maybe the submitters awk is less picky.
19:36:32 <alise> Bah, why do OISCs suck?
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19:40:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Anonymous functions? Are these people completely insane?
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19:43:49 <madbrain2> well, is there a variant of combinator calculus that only needs one combinator?
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19:45:29 <alise> although no such /supercombinator/ calculus
19:45:39 <alise> there is also a two-combinator calculus that does not require parentheses, ever, iirc
19:45:43 <alise> (in normal application order)
19:45:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: a lambda with no lambdas inside
19:46:07 <alise> SKI, BCKW, etc. are all supercombinators.
19:49:03 <madbrain2> well, one combinator with different appication trees, or two combinators sounds like the minimum
19:49:44 <cpressey> picolisp seems pretty decent, but it's a bit surprising to see that the size of its executable is larger than lua5's by like 150%
19:50:07 <cpressey> No, badly worded. Its executable is 150% the size of lua5's.
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19:52:50 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: The included database might be a large chunk of it, yes,
19:52:58 <alise> cpressey: even the 64 version?
19:53:00 <alise> that's written in assembly
19:53:04 -!- Jora has left (?).
19:53:04 <alise> and yes, the database
19:53:34 <cpressey> No 64-bit arch here to try that on, unfortunately
19:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean wouldn't Lua have lots of stuff in libraries outside the executable.
19:54:27 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Not normally, but you're right that Ubuntu packagers might have decided to do that
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20:24:40 <alise> 03:17:07 <oklofok> in my dream, alise and cpressey sent me a postcard that was an invite to come explore the "natural hoovers" of another universe (natural hoover being a technical term for an inverse volcano)
20:24:42 <alise> oh, so it worked!!
20:24:50 <alise> 04:12:50 <oklofok> alise: i got 130
20:25:19 <oklopol> you basically forced me to try it
20:25:54 <alise> it's way too slippery
20:25:58 <alise> oklopol: what level are you on now?
20:26:11 <oklopol> 58, but i'm taking a break, possibly quitting completely
20:26:19 <oklopol> have to get some reading done
20:27:35 <oklopol> i got badly stuck at a few levels, i dunno why but it was scary shit :(
20:29:45 <alise> oklopol: i'm on 66 dude
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20:31:05 <alise> oklopol: i'm not joking. loser
20:31:09 <oklopol> maybe later..................
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20:32:00 <alise> oklopol: when did you get up to 58?
20:32:53 <alise> like when did you complete 57
20:32:57 <alise> i.e. how long have you been not-playing
20:33:14 <oklopol> i think i stopped at 22:15
20:33:21 <oklopol> so i've been playing for ages
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20:33:43 <alise> what time is it there now?
20:36:13 <alise> oklopol: i've been playing for days and days and i'm only up to 66
20:36:26 <oklopol> right, i've been playing for about an hour
20:36:37 <alise> oklopol: two hours and thirty-five minutues
20:36:51 <alise> oklopol: a friend is on 64, he's been playing for as long as me
20:37:10 <alise> another is on 57, roughly the same amount of time (although less time spent playing)
20:37:11 <oklopol> well i've played it before
20:37:24 <oklopol> so maybe i should catch all of you
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20:38:04 <alise> oklopol: become the first person to actually complete the damn thing
20:38:28 <alise> anyway even i think it's JUST TOO EASY (I'm also insane) so I'm going to make a clone except the levels are ridiculously hard
20:38:33 <alise> because i'm perverse.
20:42:39 <oklopol> 58 is fun, first a few minutes of triviality, then one short hard part
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20:44:17 <alise> that irritated me :P
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20:53:19 <pikhq> And annoyed with all ROM management tools out there, I decided to replace them. With a small Tcl script.
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20:53:44 <pikhq> (Tcl used because: I'm too lazy to rewrite a CSV parser, and I know how the one in Tcl works)
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20:55:58 <fizzie> oklopol: You're doing this thing again? After the last time you said it's no fun at all?
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21:05:27 <alise> oklopol: what level now :D
21:06:31 <oklopol> maybe my hands are getting old
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21:10:38 <Vorpal> oklopol, how old are they?
21:11:25 <oklopol> i think they are roughly as old as me
21:11:43 <madbrain2> I gotta design an 8bit microprocessor
21:11:59 <oklopol> we all feel like that sometimes
21:12:02 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm. Okay. At least they didn't sell you some old ones that passed the best before date while in storage then
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21:12:55 <Vorpal> madbrain2, yes "while one instruction is enough, it will probably be quite painful to code for"
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21:13:24 <madbrain2> vorpal: eh, doesn't sound like something that would make a fast design
21:13:25 <Vorpal> so there is an esotericness-usability tradeoff there
21:13:55 <madbrain2> esotericness is going to be in the gfx and sfx hardware
21:15:02 <Vorpal> suddenly this became way more boring to me
21:15:49 <Vorpal> madbrain2, at the word "game system" the idea became boring to me. I was thinking general purpose computer
21:15:59 <Vorpal> and I was considering esoteric network interfaces
21:16:17 <Vorpal> I suggest a tin-can modem
21:16:28 <nooga> my OISC is getting even better
21:16:49 <madbrain2> it's more like for coding crazy buzzy 2600 styled games
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21:16:57 <Vorpal> basically a speaker, and a mic at each end. Then two tin cans and a string in between. For half-duplex communication
21:17:23 <madbrain2> you could probably use something like the c64 tape system :D
21:17:39 <Vorpal> madbrain2, for the modem!?
21:18:03 <madbrain2> actually I don't know anything about modem design
21:18:14 <Vorpal> well, see my suggestion
21:18:24 <Vorpal> then run SLIP or something over it
21:18:26 <madbrain2> could be cool to have the sound hardware dual purpose as a modem
21:18:51 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLIP
21:18:58 <Vorpal> madbrain2, ... have you never used a modem?
21:19:17 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-to-Point_Protocol
21:19:43 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I can only assume you never used a dial-up
21:19:44 <madbrain2> I'm most likely not going to touch any network protocol
21:20:01 <Vorpal> madbrain2, why? that is way more fun than generic sound
21:20:09 <madbrain2> I have used dial-up but I forgot most of that
21:20:48 <madbrain2> I'm trying to design a synthesis chip that's going to sound cool and unique
21:20:58 <Vorpal> madbrain2, never used ADSL modem using PPPoE or PPPoA? Or tethering computer over 3G?
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21:21:36 <madbrain2> I'm not too interested in networks honestly :D
21:21:55 <Vorpal> madbrain2, why are you connected to one then? ;P
21:21:58 <alise> <oklopol> i'm stuck at 60 :(
21:21:59 <alise> <oklopol> maybe my hands are getting old
21:22:10 <alise> oklopol: did you remember to hit the ceiling before the long descent?
21:22:19 <madbrain2> well, more like the network works kthnxbye :D
21:22:23 <alise> did you remember to hold left instead of ascending further when you pass the last white line?
21:22:34 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I can't think of anything more painful to program than non-text based interfaces
21:22:45 <Vorpal> well, malbolge probably
21:22:50 <alise> <nooga> my OISC is getting even better ;; what is it like?
21:22:56 <madbrain2> whereas if I can design a neat sound chip
21:22:58 <Vorpal> but apart from that, doing something like SDL or GTK+ or whatever: painful
21:23:10 <madbrain2> then I can make a composition tool and make neat chipmusic for it :D
21:23:25 <alise> Vorpal: SDL, painful?
21:23:33 <alise> you may want to consider that you're just a bad programmer
21:23:50 <madbrain2> it's going to be more like DOS VGA programming than sdl really :D
21:23:55 <Vorpal> alise, well yes, but I don't blame that on SDL. I just hate graphics programming in general
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21:24:16 <madbrain2> put data at memory address N to get color Y at pixel Z
21:24:33 <Vorpal> madbrain2, going to implement this in hardware?
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21:24:50 <Vorpal> madbrain2, FPGA later?
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21:25:00 <Vorpal> madbrain2, verilog or VHDL?
21:26:25 <madbrain2> I'd really go for an emulator mostly since that's what most people will end up seeing and using
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21:26:35 <madbrain2> but I want a design that can actually work irl
21:26:36 <Vorpal> madbrain2, or do it in silicon with contemporary technology ;)
21:26:43 <Vorpal> if you have some billions to spare that is
21:26:49 <madbrain2> and that doesn't involve ridiculous parts
21:26:57 <oklopol> "<alise> oklopol: did you remember to hit the ceiling before the long descent?" <<< the fastest way is to just drop down, but yeah it's possible i usually do that part wrong, let's see
21:27:19 <madbrain2> so I'm mostly designingg from DRAM specs
21:27:34 <Vorpal> madbrain2, anyway this sound chip. I presume it won't be able to play back acoustic music
21:27:41 <Vorpal> without sounding horrible
21:27:49 <madbrain2> 8-bit classic dram designs, or 64-bit EDO designs are totally different
21:27:59 <oklopol> or maybe hitting ceiling is faster in this case too
21:28:13 <alise> oklopol: hitting ceiling is faster
21:28:19 <alise> you can get this by raping the spacebar a lot before dropping
21:28:22 <madbrain2> vorpal: I'm not quite sure yet, I could make it sample based like the amiga and snes but that's a bit too easy
21:28:24 <alise> that pretty much guarantees a ceiling hit
21:28:45 <alise> madbrain2: Vorpal hates you because it cannot play THE ONLY FORM OF MUSIC
21:28:51 <madbrain2> there are some pretty good tools for that too
21:28:59 <alise> madbrain2: classical ofc
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21:29:07 <Vorpal> I like non-classical too
21:29:12 <madbrain2> depends how you define classical :D
21:29:39 <madbrain2> but yeah on really limited systems like NES, poppy 80s music tends to work a bit better
21:29:44 <alise> Classical music is all Greek to me.
21:30:18 <madbrain2> FM synthesis chips can do ok classical music
21:31:26 <Vorpal> madbrain2, well, I define classical to the the classical period. Which is hard to define in exact years. The borders to the baroque and the romantic periods are definitely fuzzy
21:32:16 <madbrain2> well, for video game music it tends to be more like romantic music
21:32:18 <Vorpal> however wikipedia offers the suggestion "The dates of the Classical Period in Western music are generally accepted as being between 1750 to 1820."
21:32:28 <Vorpal> which is reasonably accurate
21:32:39 <madbrain2> just because violins are hard on synthesizers
21:33:01 <Vorpal> madbrain2, violins is my favourite instrument. On second place is piano.
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21:33:25 <cpressey> < Vorpal> madbrain2, I can't think of anything more painful to program than non-text based interfaces
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21:33:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, Thanks. Aren't we all in here anyway.
21:33:56 <madbrain2> on snes, actraiser 2 is the most "serious" orchestral soundtrack
21:34:02 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I place organ, especially church organ, on last place. I strongly dislike that sound.
21:34:13 <madbrain2> and even then it's sorta jumpy and romantic
21:34:36 <Vorpal> distorted electric guitar is on the place above organ
21:34:50 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I love the Zelda OOT music
21:35:24 <alise> <Vorpal> cpressey, Thanks. Aren't we all in here anyway.
21:35:27 <alise> Usually in an interesting way.
21:35:39 <Vorpal> alise, and who are you to define interesting?
21:36:01 <alise> Who are you to define weird as something complementary?
21:36:02 <madbrain2> most other orchestral soundtracks are classical/pop mixes
21:36:33 <cpressey> < alise> you can get this by raping the spacebar a lot before dropping
21:36:40 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't say that. I just said thanks. Implying I liked it
21:36:42 <alise> MY TERMINOLOGY IS ACCEPTABLE
21:36:51 <madbrain2> like the final fantasy soundtracks
21:36:56 <cpressey> That sounds redundant, but technically it probably isn't.
21:37:11 <madbrain2> but yeah snes sound ram is like 64k
21:37:32 <madbrain2> and violins sound bad when you pitch them up or down
21:38:09 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I prefer sampled to synthed when it comes to sound generation.
21:38:22 <madbrain2> compared to, say, flutes, which come out relatively good
21:38:34 <madbrain2> vorpal: yeah, that's normal I think
21:38:38 <Vorpal> madbrain2, and violins have a pretty restricted range anyway. You want viola, cello and so on for other ranges
21:39:02 <madbrain2> well, what I mean is that it's hard to pass off a G3 sample at G4 for instance
21:39:27 <madbrain2> where you could get away with only 1 or a few flute samples
21:40:01 <Vorpal> madbrain2, well, to some extent. Not for a trained ear though.
21:40:07 <madbrain2> and when you loop the flute sample it's less of a problem
21:40:32 <cpressey> alise: "raping the spacebar a lot"
21:40:36 <madbrain2> vorpal: true, but what I mean is that it's less of a problem than other instruments
21:41:24 <madbrain2> like, you can compose music with a 2k flute sample and it won't sound ear raping and terrible
21:41:31 <Vorpal> madbrain2, there is a reason I use huge soundfonts when playing MIDI. 70 MB or more isn't uncommon for good quality soundfonts
21:41:47 <Vorpal> for piano alone that is :P
21:42:04 <madbrain2> well, I'm mostly talking about really small settings with few channels :D
21:42:34 <madbrain2> like orchestral soundtracks squeezed into 256k with 8 channels :D
21:42:41 <alise> bah! who needs more sounds than sin can produce!
21:42:55 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I much prefer actually acoustically recorded music to even generated-with-samples though
21:43:11 <madbrain2> sin can produce everything but you'd need hundreads of channels
21:43:30 <madbrain2> vorpal: and with what orchestra am I going to record soundtracks eh? :D
21:43:45 <Vorpal> madbrain2, for the violin family of instruments you can usually hear a difference. Especially if they start plucking the strings.
21:44:12 <madbrain2> but yeah real orchestras sound better than fake ones. duh.
21:44:19 <Vorpal> there are sooo many ways to play a violin. Try rendering anything by Paganini in midi. I doubt the result will be even passable
21:44:36 <Vorpal> madbrain2, a piano is way easier. Much fewer variables that can change
21:45:01 <madbrain2> well, just the fact that it is "solo violin" is already a really bad start
21:45:17 <Vorpal> key, attack, time held down, release, which pedals are down.
21:45:20 <Vorpal> That's about it I think
21:45:28 <madbrain2> that's why soundtracks concentrate on the other instruments, that's the one that samples the worst
21:45:33 <cpressey> madbrain2: I can't wait to play this violin game on your esoputer. Wait, I'm lost.
21:45:40 <madbrain2> piano works fine if you just sample every note
21:45:45 <Vorpal> madbrain2, violin is the best instrument there is though
21:45:55 <madbrain2> then piano can sound pretty good yes
21:46:30 <Vorpal> madbrain2, yes I have an electrical piano. It sounds good. Assuming I use my studio headphones rather than the built in speakers
21:46:32 <madbrain2> vorpal: well, what's a good system when the soundtrack has to fit into like 250k max eh? :D
21:46:38 <cpressey> SQUARE WAVES WITH PULSE WIDTH SWEEP OR BUST
21:46:43 <Vorpal> madbrain2, adding more memory :P
21:46:59 <madbrain2> then the design is going to turn into a playstation
21:47:24 <Vorpal> madbrain2, hm. Playstation is better though. Can use it for cracking MD5 too
21:48:11 <madbrain2> it's like, I'm going for 8 bits here, not 32~64 bit systems, which are complicated to design
21:48:33 <Vorpal> madbrain2, why not 16 bits?
21:48:51 <cpressey> madbrain2: OK, to like, answer your original question? I like the 6502. Design something like that.
21:49:09 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I was coding for a 16-bit platform today. A lot nicer than 8 bits. With 8 bits for the address bus you need some sort of bank switching design
21:49:12 <Vorpal> and it will be horrible
21:49:31 <cpressey> Vorpal: Wh... 8-bits usually have a 16-bit address bus.
21:49:34 <madbrain2> well, by 8bits I mean 8 bit data bus
21:49:56 <madbrain2> something like the z80 that has 8bit data bus with 16bit address registers
21:50:01 <Vorpal> madbrain2, okay. RISC I presume?
21:50:11 <cpressey> I don't know of any real HW with an 8-bit address bus. Maybe "back in the day" when computers had names like SCA/MP
21:50:31 <madbrain2> the registers could be 32bits for all I care, but there's not too much point if you have to squeeze it through an 8 bit bus
21:50:58 <Vorpal> madbrain2, risc definitely
21:51:07 <Vorpal> less of a pain in hardware
21:51:49 <madbrain2> risc makes sense in the 32bit generation stuff
21:51:50 <Vorpal> madbrain2, risc and number the instructions in a way as to minimise gate count in instruction decoding and so on
21:52:18 <madbrain2> like, if I had a 32bit bus I'd definitely try RISC
21:52:21 <Vorpal> madbrain2, 16-bit RISC is often quite nice to use
21:52:55 <cpressey> madbrain2: What ISAs are you familiar with?
21:53:00 <madbrain2> the problem with risc is that instruction is usually quite large
21:53:28 <Vorpal> madbrain2, Harward or von Neumann?
21:53:32 <madbrain2> so mostly x86, looked a bit at ARM, z80...
21:54:10 <cpressey> Z80 is a great piece of hardware (easy to build a computer around) but I really don't like the instruction set.
21:54:14 <Vorpal> madbrain2, hm. The 16-bit RISC I used recently had like 32 instructions
21:54:15 <madbrain2> harvard is nice but you'd need like two mem/data busses
21:54:33 <Vorpal> no FPU or MMU of course
21:54:43 <madbrain2> vorpal: the instructions are 16bits each?
21:55:05 <Vorpal> madbrain2, with arguments included yes iirc
21:55:25 <madbrain2> remember that there's no data cache
21:55:35 <Vorpal> madbrain2, nor on that thing. It's SoC.
21:55:54 <madbrain2> so 16 bit instruction = have to wait for 16 bits of data from DRA
21:56:09 <Vorpal> hm maybe it has a cache, but I don't think so
21:56:18 <Vorpal> madbrain2, not really an issue for my application though
21:56:34 <madbrain2> that means register instructions will take 1 cycle, memory instructions 2 cycles
21:56:34 <fizzie> cpressey: Z80 feels a bit arbitrary to me. But I can't help liking the register pairing to form BC, DE, HL out of B, C, D, E, H, L.
21:56:35 <Vorpal> which was controlling a robot
21:56:48 <Vorpal> heck it was waiting on sensors most time
21:57:01 <madbrain2> and at 16 bits it will be similar in performance to a 286/386 or a 68k
21:57:18 <Vorpal> madbrain2, why not back it by fast memory? Like SRAM
21:57:53 <madbrain2> SRAM is kindof like... you get not much memory
21:58:09 <Vorpal> madbrain2, 2^16 gives 65536 bytes, which is 64 kiB unless I miscalculated.
21:58:23 <Vorpal> even my pentium3 had more level 2 cache
21:58:29 <Vorpal> and that would be SRAM
21:58:34 <cpressey> fizzie: The pairing is a nice touch, I grant.
21:58:43 <Vorpal> madbrain2, what isn't?
21:58:54 <madbrain2> few systems are designed with SRAM
21:59:19 <madbrain2> even for the GBA they had to relent and added 256k of DRAM (first designs only had 32k SRAM)
21:59:22 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I'm saying it can't be too expensive! Even a pentium3 had more level 2 cache!
22:00:05 <wareya_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator
22:00:08 <wareya_> what the hell am I reading
22:00:11 <Vorpal> my pentium3 has 256k level 2 cache
22:00:31 <alise> <madbrain2> sin can produce everything but you'd need hundreads of channels ;; the thousand-channel sin machine
22:00:36 <alise> i see no flaw in this plan
22:00:59 <cpressey> alise: It's like the OISC of sound synthesizers!
22:01:16 <fizzie> Nintendo DS, which admittedly isn't very retro at all, has 4 megs of slow-slow DRAM shared by the ARM7/ARM9 cores, and then about 64k of faster memory that can be mapped in various ways.
22:01:19 <madbrain2> alise: there's a real 64 channel design that came out of atari :D
22:01:21 <Vorpal> alise, sounds wonderful indeed.
22:02:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, about as much RAM as my low end keypad nokia phone iirc
22:02:07 <madbrain2> but yeah there's a couple of real synthesizers that have used sinewave based synthesis
22:02:17 <fizzie> (Also, the DS's sound chip can hardware-mix 32 sampled-audio channels at independent sampling rates. Though you'd run out of memory bandwidth if you wanted to keep all channels on with high sampling rates.
22:03:11 <Vorpal> madbrain2, you can't do saw-tooth with sine though afaik?
22:03:23 <Vorpal> not sure why anyone would want saw-tooth to tell the truth
22:03:24 <cpressey> alise: I think this "sin"thesizer would be easier to do in software than in hardware...
22:03:26 <madbrain2> vorpas: you can add sines together
22:03:40 <madbrain2> the more sines you add the closer it gets
22:03:48 <Vorpal> madbrain2, hm. Perfectly saw tooth?
22:04:09 <madbrain2> vorpal: a lot of common instruments are sortof dull-saw-wave-shaped
22:04:15 <cpressey> oklopol: square with pulse width sweep <3 <3 <3
22:04:26 <madbrain2> vorpal: you'd have problems with gibbs phenomenon but yeah
22:04:37 <Vorpal> madbrain2, gibbs phenomenon ?
22:04:43 <oklopol> i don't know what that is, but <3 <3 <3 just to be on the safe side
22:05:27 <Vorpal> madbrain2, phase modulated music. Has anyone made that?
22:05:58 <madbrain2> vorpal: adlib and genesis use phase modulation synthesis
22:06:14 <Vorpal> madbrain2, how does it sound?
22:06:53 <madbrain2> vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50sHqDIRdSw&feature=related
22:06:57 <Vorpal> madbrain2, also hm, presumably you could do PWM too
22:07:15 <madbrain2> yeah pulse width is a classic but dunno
22:07:34 <Vorpal> madbrain2, sine probably sounds best though
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22:07:50 <madbrain2> it has rather wide spectrum so it's kinda hard to mix
22:07:59 <madbrain2> sine wave has the opposite problem :D
22:08:21 <madbrain2> pwm square wave has a really wide spectrum
22:08:55 <madbrain2> sine has the most narrow spectrum since it's only 1 frequency :D
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22:09:24 <Vorpal> <madbrain2> vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50sHqDIRdSw&feature=related <-- horrible sound :P
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22:10:02 <Vorpal> madbrain2, possible it might sound better on a crappier playback device than a SB Live 5.1
22:10:24 <Vorpal> madbrain2, and with some cheaper headphones that professional studio monitoring ones
22:10:24 <alise_> madbrain2: pwm square wave plus sine
22:10:50 <Vorpal> madbrain2, since my setup doesn't hide any imperfections in the sound
22:11:53 <madbrain2> vorpal: no it's really that the synth is pretty limited
22:11:57 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I noticed that with cheaper equipment you can get away with more imperfections. Not just for sound, but in general.
22:12:10 <madbrain2> so you haave to do nasty compromises
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22:12:24 <fizzie> Squared sine. See, you've got a sine, and you've sort-of metaphysically got a square too.
22:12:39 <cpressey> OMG, I see why DICE C has so much trouble with RUBE. RUBE heavily uses #defines that expand into similar expressions, and DICE doesn't do any common subexpression elimination.
22:13:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about generalised polygon?
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22:13:48 <Vorpal> cpressey, sounds crappy
22:13:49 <madbrain2> vorpal: this is about the best "mixed" genesis game : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6HNLcl1dl0&feature=related
22:14:21 <Vorpal> madbrain2, pretty limited still
22:15:06 <madbrain2> well, composing for snes is easier yes :D
22:15:15 <Vorpal> madbrain2, and what did it use?
22:15:26 <Vorpal> I forgot what you said for it
22:15:52 <pikhq> If you're willing to cheat horribly on the SNES, you can just have your cartridge send a signal down the L and R audio pins.
22:16:06 <pikhq> (that's *analog* L and R audio.)
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22:16:22 <madbrain2> that's cool though the snes chip is already not bad at all :D
22:16:44 <pikhq> Or if you're really crazy, you can just *barely* get the SNES to output 32 kHz PCM.
22:16:59 <madbrain2> mostly you have to fit everything into 64k of sound ram but that's adpcm so it's like twice compressed compared to 8bit pcm
22:17:02 <pikhq> Without any addon chips.
22:17:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, can it do anything else then?
22:17:11 <Vorpal> apart from outputting sound
22:17:38 <madbrain2> the problem is really that you're going to run out of sound ram really fast at 32khz :D
22:17:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: You see, the sound output is done on a completely seperate processor.
22:17:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, but really, it had pins for analog audio to the cartridge?
22:17:53 <pikhq> madbrain2: 2 minutes on a 32 megabit cartridge.
22:18:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, huh, how many games made use of that?
22:18:20 <madbrain2> vorpal: the japanese NES and MSX had that too and afaik they're the only systems where sound expansion chips were used
22:18:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: Super Gameboy.
22:18:38 <pikhq> In Japan, there was also the BSX extension.
22:18:55 <pikhq> It was a hookup to a satellite modem.
22:19:14 <madbrain2> pikhq: that's if the game had no other data :D
22:19:21 <pikhq> madbrain2: Yes, yes it is.
22:19:29 <madbrain2> also you could actually fit 4 minutes
22:19:59 <pikhq> madbrain2: Also, though not done on any actual physical carts, you *can* actually get up to 4 GB on there.
22:20:03 <madbrain2> but it would be hard because streaming audio to the sound chip is kinda hard
22:20:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, considering how much you could do in a cartridge I can't see why you would be limited to uncompressed PCM
22:20:30 <madbrain2> vorpal: snes has ADPCM compression in hardware
22:20:41 <madbrain2> in fact you can't play NOT compressed pcm :D
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22:20:53 <Vorpal> madbrain2, how efficient is that compression?
22:21:08 <madbrain2> you get 8bit quality audio for the price of 4.5bits
22:21:41 <madbrain2> mostly it means your 64k of sound ram are more like ~120k
22:21:51 <Vorpal> madbrain2, ah I was thinking of come reasonably high quality lossless compression, like wavpack, being unpacked by a co-processor on the cartridge
22:22:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's perfectly feasible.
22:22:22 <madbrain2> vorpal: you'd have to fit it in the superfx2 chip I guess
22:22:22 <pikhq> Something similar was *actually done* for sprites on a couple of games.
22:22:33 <Vorpal> err s/reasonably high quality lossless/reasonably high compression ratio lossless/
22:22:39 <pikhq> madbrain2: Not necessarily.
22:22:48 <pikhq> madbrain2: You can literally stick just about anything on there.
22:22:50 <madbrain2> the problem is that you'd have to compress the audio to ADPCM after decompressing it
22:23:07 <pikhq> You could attach a modern x86 PC to the SNES bus.
22:23:14 <Vorpal> madbrain2, just put a DSP in there that plays to the analogue audio pins?
22:23:31 <pikhq> *That* would be easy.
22:23:40 <madbrain2> but you'd also run out of data on the cartridges
22:23:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, depends on how many amps you could pull from the power pins
22:24:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, you would presumably blow some fuse at some point
22:24:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: One could do something similar to the BSX.
22:24:15 <madbrain2> good lossless compression schemes get you 50% compression on like stereo 16 bit
22:24:24 <pikhq> Namely, have external power.
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22:24:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, well that's cheating
22:24:38 <pikhq> madbrain2: Doing it modern-day would let you stick a freaking flash card to it.
22:24:42 <Vorpal> madbrain2, 16-bit? bah
22:24:48 <madbrain2> that's still ~88k of data per SECOND
22:25:07 <madbrain2> that's more than the sound data of some games
22:25:08 <Vorpal> madbrain2, just stick some NAND flash into there
22:25:37 <madbrain2> no man, get the snes with a cd and play ramstein over your game
22:25:46 <pikhq> madbrain2: The SNES-CD?
22:26:10 <pikhq> madbrain2: Yes they did. They just didn't finish because contract fell through.
22:26:16 <madbrain2> but tg16-cd games often play redbook audio for music
22:26:29 <pikhq> You've probably seen the public result of that, though.
22:27:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, how much of the SNES could you bypass. I mean. Doing the entire game on the cartridge. Would that be possible?
22:27:07 <madbrain2> though many psx games play some sort of compressed format
22:27:09 <Vorpal> just putting the main CPU in an idle loop
22:27:20 <Vorpal> possibly after poking some hardware registers or such
22:27:21 <GreaseMonkey> from experience most playstation games actually use the sound chip instead of playing from the CD
22:27:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, you indeed could.
22:27:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Are you familiar with the Super Gameboy?
22:27:54 <GreaseMonkey> the die hard trilogy is an example of one which uses tracks on the CD
22:27:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes, but I don't know if the main CPU is doing anything at all there or not
22:28:06 <fizzie> Rather few PC games bother with CD audio, but some do use it.
22:28:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, like shifting data to the display or whatever
22:28:18 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's displaying a framebuffer.
22:28:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah, could you skip that too?
22:28:35 <madbrain2> cd audio sorta became obsolete when games started streaming audio by themselves
22:28:42 <pikhq> Well, rather, it's displaying a few different sprites which *happen* to be the Super Gameboy's framebuffer.
22:28:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, also the SNES pin design must have needed some serious planning ahead!
22:28:56 <GreaseMonkey> i believe you could skip the entire NES if you ran from cartridge
22:29:17 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, NES or SNES?
22:29:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: The Super Gameboy is literally a Gameboy which uses the SNES for video and audio out and controller in.
22:30:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, but as you said, it still does the framebuffer bit
22:30:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, I want to directly drive everything from the cartridge
22:30:48 <madbrain2> just put a ntsc output on the cartridge
22:31:05 <Vorpal> madbrain2, that would be cheating
22:31:19 <Vorpal> madbrain2, external power supply I accept
22:31:27 <madbrain2> the real thing they did with snes is use the snes sound chip
22:31:30 <Vorpal> madbrain2, yes but cheating with specifc rules
22:31:37 <pikhq> alise_: Actually, that's just the largest official game release.
22:31:50 <pikhq> alise_: The ROM limit is actually 2^32-1 bytes.
22:31:52 <madbrain2> because the sound chip was already better than what you'd probably come up with for game sound chips
22:32:18 <madbrain2> I think there's even a couple with 6 megs
22:32:33 <pikhq> Aaaand you could then start paging.
22:33:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: You couldn't *quite* do that.
22:33:20 <pikhq> madbrain2: Oh, right, it is. Never mind.
22:33:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: However, you could completely shut off the main CPU and use the on-cartridge CPU.
22:33:42 <madbrain2> that's still 16 megs, more than any snes game
22:34:02 <GreaseMonkey> pikhq: yes, and you could also make a space invaders thing which could detect super gameboy and turn the damn thing back on
22:34:04 <madbrain2> pikhq: I think snes DOOM does that
22:34:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because the actual cartridge expansion chip hooks into the *main bus*.
22:34:35 <GreaseMonkey> i believe it uses some form of ADPCM for its samples
22:34:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, but if the main cpu is running it takes over or?
22:34:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: If the main CPU is running then they run in tandem.
22:35:24 <pikhq> With communication between them going over a specific point in memory.
22:35:28 <Vorpal> madbrain2, but it uses a lot of shading instead of textures, and where it uses textures they are simple. I'm not surprised
22:35:32 <pikhq> This is how all of the actual expansion chips on the SNES functioned.
22:35:39 <Vorpal> madbrain2, zelda oot is 32 megabyte iirc?
22:35:57 <madbrain2> 24megs or something... I don't remember
22:36:16 <Vorpal> ah maybe it was majora's mask that was 32 megabyte
22:36:34 <madbrain2> but yeah psx games are huge compared to that
22:36:54 <Vorpal> madbrain2, was psx same era or?
22:37:34 <Vorpal> from what I remember of psx and n64, psx had better hardware but worse games
22:38:03 <Vorpal> but gameplay wise I meant
22:38:16 <fizzie> DS game card connection is a boring bus with 8 bidirectional data bits, and no direct addressing (you have to send it commands); and I guess from the DSi onwards they dropped the GBA cart slot, which did have 24 address bits. No more memory add-ons, or other sort of funky tricks. (Though DSi upped the built-in RAM to 16 megs, so.)
22:38:19 <Vorpal> madbrain2, texture interpolation... now what did that one do
22:38:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: Actually, the PSX had quite a few good games and a lot of shovelware.
22:38:28 <myndzi\> yeah that's a real selling point with nintendo fans
22:38:36 <myndzi\> mario 64, now with texture interpolation!
22:38:39 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
22:38:51 <Vorpal> myndzi, I have to say I much prefer zelda over mario
22:38:55 <pikhq> And the N64 had quite a few good games and not much shovelware.
22:38:58 <madbrain2> vorpal: make the textures blurry instead of blocky
22:39:04 <myndzi> mario is in this game, this is a mario game
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22:39:20 <myndzi> zelda 64 was pretty cool
22:39:21 <pikhq> Amount of good games, about the same (though the N64 got royally screwed on JRPGs). Just better signal/noise ratio.
22:39:34 <Vorpal> myndzi, there were two
22:39:35 <GreaseMonkey> i believe the record for largest n64 ROM is 64MB, can't remember which it is
22:39:42 <myndzi> the first one, i never actually played most of these games
22:39:48 <myndzi> but i did see a number of them
22:40:05 <madbrain2> mario64 is like a classic, classic piece of game design
22:40:07 <myndzi> i liked the targeting system
22:40:18 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, iirc the leaked debug from for zelda oot master quest was 64 MB
22:40:21 <myndzi> though maybe it didn't translate well to the c ontroller, i am unsure haha
22:40:23 <pikhq> The N64 had some really stupid hardware limitations.
22:40:50 <madbrain2> didn't it have some problems with... I think it was gfx cache or something like that
22:41:00 <pikhq> Such as having a single chunk of RAM that was high-latency.
22:41:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, couldn't you put a co-processor on the cartridge for n6?
22:41:03 <myndzi> seeing as you guys are saying psx, i'm wondering if any of you knows where that abbreviation came from?
22:41:14 <myndzi> i seem to recall opening files in a hex editor and psx was the header
22:41:23 <myndzi> but that seems a strange reason for it to have become the common acronym
22:41:32 <myndzi> (though, in this channel, the opposite might be true ;)
22:41:35 <madbrain2> probably because PS was kinda short
22:41:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: Nothing-but-ROM.
22:41:44 <myndzi> but almost since the playstation was out i remember people calling it the psx
22:41:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, how did it save games then?
22:42:04 <pikhq> Oh, right. You could have some writable RAM on there.
22:42:06 <myndzi> well, like i said, i am about 90% sure PSX was the file header for executables on the system
22:42:09 <pikhq> Fine. Nothing but memory.
22:42:18 <myndzi> like MZ (MZP) in an exe file
22:42:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, so use that as a frame buffer!
22:42:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, that a chip on the cartridge draws to
22:42:39 <pikhq> *groan*someone actually did that
22:42:49 <pikhq> The "Wide-Boy 64".
22:43:00 <GreaseMonkey> myndzi: i interpreted that as "i am sure 90% of PSX was the file header"
22:43:24 <pikhq> It was a hand-built but actually sold Gameboy Color for the N64.
22:43:26 <madbrain2> well, the jaguar was a single-piece-of-ram system too
22:43:40 <myndzi> GreaseMonkey: s/of/that/, but i guess they mean about the same thing
22:43:58 <pikhq> Erm, sorry. Not hand-built.
22:44:07 <pikhq> It was an official dev tool for the GBC.
22:44:11 <GreaseMonkey> as in "90% of the game image was the file header"
22:44:38 <myndzi> yeah, PSX games were super compact
22:44:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm... Good thing caching didn't mess up or such
22:45:12 <madbrain2> myndzi: well, you don't want to use 700mb cause it's going to take forever to load :D
22:45:15 <pikhq> Cache? What cache?
22:45:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, well n64 could have that
22:45:39 <madbrain2> yeah from psx on they all have cache I think
22:45:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway, what was Wide-Boy 64?
22:45:41 <pikhq> It had high latency RAM and *no cache*.
22:45:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: GBC for the N64.
22:46:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, nintendo product?
22:46:18 <pikhq> Vorpal: Only available to developers, though.
22:46:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, did the gamecube use cartridges to or?
22:46:39 <madbrain2> but I think dreamcast had haxxor cds that went up to like 700mb
22:46:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, ... what was the point of that then?
22:46:41 <GreaseMonkey> the amusing thing about PSX and N64 is that they both contain the same family of processor
22:47:16 <pikhq> Vorpal: ... Game Boy Color.
22:47:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, um I didn't ask what it was
22:47:28 <pikhq> Not Game Cube, Game Boy Color.
22:47:36 <GreaseMonkey> (i mean the PSX and N64 have MIPS and those other 3 are PPCish)
22:47:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: What are you talking about the gamecube for, then?
22:47:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, I asked *why only for developers* and I asked a question about gamecube
22:47:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, well I know Wii use cds
22:47:56 <pikhq> I dunno why it was only for developers.
22:48:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, gamecube is in between n64 and wii
22:48:10 <Vorpal> and I didn't remember what it used
22:48:12 <pikhq> And the Gamecube used a disc that was DVD-like.
22:48:29 <madbrain2> yeah I think game cubes used something like mini DVDs
22:48:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, so no funky cartridge processor then
22:49:19 <pikhq> Huh. The Wii doesn't use DVDs.
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22:49:42 <pikhq> It uses the same disc format as the Gamecube, but physically larger.
22:49:51 <madbrain2> anyways, streaming audio doesn't really make sense unless you have tons of data
22:50:24 <madbrain2> even now some devs use synthesized audio on iphones because of stuff like 10mb data limits
22:50:30 <pikhq> The "Nintendo Optical Disc" is physically a DVD, except recorded assuming constant angular velocity.
22:50:58 <madbrain2> yeah, I think the xbox or xbox360 had a reverse DVD, too :D
22:51:04 <pikhq> (meaning the physical size of a bit varies depending on the distance from the center)
22:51:11 <pikhq> madbrain2: Nope, completely standard DVD drives.
22:51:17 <madbrain2> like a DVD but the tracks go the opposite way
22:51:25 <pikhq> The Xbox to the point of *literally* being purchased off the shelf.
22:51:40 <pikhq> They purchased normal IDE DVD drives and stuck them on there.
22:52:14 <alise_> <pikhq> The "Nintendo Optical Disc" is physically a DVD, except recorded assuming constant angular velocity.
22:52:16 <alise_> <pikhq> (meaning the physical size of a bit varies depending on the distance from the center)
22:53:13 <fizzie> It's so close to a DVD that the WiiDrive is capable of DVD-reading with very slight modchippery, though.
22:53:22 <pikhq> No mod chips involved.
22:53:25 <pikhq> It requires some software.
22:53:56 <cpressey> Whoa! Got rube.c to compile in DICE by grinding its innards with a corkscrew. I think I introduced some bugs, but it does run. Pretty!
22:54:26 <cpressey> And we're still talking about vijiogame musics?
22:54:48 <madbrain2> vorpal: anyways, the best synth chip used on video game systems is probably the roland mt-32
22:55:12 <pikhq> Ah, yes. The NOD also has a barcode burned onto it that the drive checks to try and avoid copied discs.
22:55:27 <madbrain2> example of mt-32 audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y-ermSwasw
22:55:55 <pikhq> They chose this odd-ass format to avoid licensing fees.
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23:00:27 <alise_> aqwsdcfvgbqAWSDRFTGYHUJWASEDFGHJK';#WERTYUIOP[]ERDTFYGUHIOPQAWSEDRTFYGUHJAsdf`123456RETDFYGUHIJOKLPERDCFVGB N RF [P;OLI
23:01:59 <cpressey> alise_: I so want that to be an Ursala quine.
23:04:39 <madbrain2> vorpal: but yeah the limitations I'm using are:
23:04:54 <cpressey> alise_: OK, so fwiw: for my strictly typed rewriting language, the types would apply to the rules. (car (cons H T:list)) -> H, for example.
23:05:24 <madbrain2> that means you can do 400 DRAM reads per scanline
23:05:45 <madbrain2> but you have to share them between cpu and gfx
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23:16:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself).
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23:33:18 <cpressey> When was the last time you wrote something beautiful in C?
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23:42:15 <nooga> my OISC is getting even better
23:50:50 <Vorpal> <madbrain2> vorpal: anyways, the best synth chip used on video game systems is probably the roland mt-32 <--- why is that?
23:50:55 <Vorpal> <madbrain2> - NTSC output <-- UGH why?
23:50:59 <Vorpal> madbrain2, what is wrong with PAL
23:51:57 <Vorpal> madbrain2, also how often does the DRAM need to be refreshed?
23:55:18 <Vorpal> <cpressey> When was the last time you wrote something beautiful in C? <-- hm... ages
23:57:00 <fizzie> What's wrong with NTSC w.r.t. PAL then? A bit smaller amount of raster lines, but a bit higher framerate; it's not like the differences are huge.
23:57:34 <cpressey> I just managed to compile Lua 5.1.4 on AmigaOS 1.3! Problem is, I can't *link* it, because there are so many *.o files the shell complains "Command too long!"
00:02:04 <cpressey> Hah, @-arguments to the rescue
00:03:02 <cpressey> fizzie: A higher framerate means less time to compute enemy AI between frames!
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00:14:24 <cpressey> Gak! What they don't tell you is that lines in an @-included file are limited to 254 characters!
00:15:45 <alise_> <cpressey> When was the last time you wrote something beautiful in C? ;; never
00:16:24 <alise_> <Vorpal> <madbrain2> - NTSC output <-- UGH why?
00:16:25 <alise_> <Vorpal> madbrain2, what is wrong with PAL
00:16:25 * pikhq declares that everyone sucks
00:16:40 <alise_> you know, Vorpal, you're an idiot.
00:16:58 <alise_> let's count the countries that use PAL
00:17:22 <alise_> 43, if I eyeballed it right
00:17:27 <alise_> now let's count those that use NTSC
00:18:14 <pikhq> About the same, I'd guess.
00:18:23 <cpressey> alise_: JAPAN and CANADA, the COOL COUNTRIES.
00:18:42 <alise_> just ambiguous how to count territories
00:18:45 <pikhq> Oh, fucking island countries near the US.
00:19:01 <alise_> Vorpal: my point is: you're not defending against the Americanisation of all entities
00:19:10 <alise_> you're just rabidly preferring anything that seems European to you, to anything American.
00:19:24 <alise_> and don't whip out a technical argument, because it's blatantly obvious that wasn't the basis of your dispute.
00:19:48 <pikhq> And it's not even like one is strictly superior to the other.
00:19:59 <pikhq> There's upsides and downsides to both.
00:20:10 <pikhq> And they both suck compared to digital broadcasting standards.
00:20:15 <alise_> NTSC is smoother with movement but less defined, PAL is less smooth with movement but better defined
00:20:26 <alise_> PAL is probably best FOR LIVE-ACTION ENTERTAINMENT
00:20:44 <alise_> as it has the same fps as movies, which creates a desirable motion blur effect, (and allows easier broadcast of movies)
00:20:46 <alise_> and has higher definition
00:20:50 <alise_> NTSC seems preferable to me
00:20:54 <pikhq> alise_: No, it has 25 fps. Film has 24 fps.
00:20:56 <alise_> because fast movement should be reproduced accurately
00:21:02 <alise_> it's the same vicinity
00:21:05 <pikhq> So, PAL has the film sped up.
00:21:06 <alise_> so the same sort of motion blur
00:21:23 <alise_> pikhq: or have horrible jerkiness
00:21:38 <alise_> the unnoticeable speed-up is better ofc :)
00:22:04 <Sgeo_> uorygl isn';t here o.O
00:22:57 <pikhq> alise_: It's noticeable in the audio.
00:23:22 <alise_> pikhq: even if you correct for pitch?
00:23:29 <pikhq> Yes, but much less so.
00:23:35 <pikhq> I vastly prefer 30 fps for display of film over 25fps.
00:23:46 <pikhq> 2:3 pulldown is quite nice.
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00:24:32 <pikhq> (Every even film frame is displayed for 1 TV frame, every odd is displayed for 1.5 TV frames)
00:25:04 <pikhq> (... Thus getting you 24 fps on a 30 fps display.)
00:25:39 <cpressey> Looks like all I have to do it stub out 12 POSIX-ish C functions that DICE don't got, and I'm in business with a only-slightly-crippled-you'd-never-know-it Lua interpreter.
00:26:02 <pikhq> *Also*, this is easily reversed by devices that can display 24 fps better than that.
00:27:08 <alise_> pikhq: no, pulldown is UNACCEPTABLE
00:27:17 <alise_> have you ever seen panning with pulldown?
00:27:25 <alise_> it's the jerkiest, most retarded thing ever
00:27:26 <alise_> but panning is the worst
00:27:33 <alise_> forwards and AH and fowards and AH
00:27:33 <cpressey> IN MY WORLD, SINH OF EVERYTHING IS ZERO
00:27:40 <pikhq> alise_: Have you seen it on a 30fps display?
00:27:44 <pikhq> It's really not noticable.
00:27:47 <alise_> cpressey: SOUNDS GOOD.
00:27:59 <alise_> pikhq: To be honest, I have never seen a 30fps display in my life, as far as I am aware.
00:28:23 <alise_> Well, maybe CRTs could do it.
00:29:27 <pikhq> Anyways, all this is somewhat irrelevant, since modern TV equipment can handle 24 fps.
00:29:50 <cpressey> Actually I might need to implement some of these... :/ memchr?
00:31:14 <alise_> cpressey: http://pdclib.rootdirectory.de/
00:31:25 <alise_> cpressey: You write a header file and get a C99-compliant library. Well, in theory.
00:31:34 <alise_> It doesn't actually have <stdio.h> yet.
00:31:42 <alise_> cpressey: But you can rip out the parts you're missing, I'm sure.
00:31:51 <pikhq> Hrm. Well, 25 fps stuff still can't, because having refresh rates high enough to handle native 25 fps video and 24 fps video without modifying stuff is not yet feasible.
00:32:10 <pikhq> 30 fps stuff, though? Yeah, just have a 120 Hz refresh rate & voila.
00:32:38 <alise_> cpressey: Failing that, try newlib.
00:33:28 <alise_> pikhq: I SEE NO REASON WE CAN'T HAVE 600 HZ TELEVISIONS
00:34:00 <pikhq> Of course, if you're willing to go for a CRT screen, it's all pretty easy.
00:34:22 <pikhq> Mmmm, multiple possible refresh rates.
00:34:39 <alise_> I loved having a CRT because I put the resolution up to 1280x1024 or something on a really shitty 17" Compaq CRT. It was so, SO flickery and so, SO blurry, but it was MOAR RESOLUTION DAMMIT.
00:34:45 <alise_> Reading UI text was a bit hard at first.
00:34:52 <alise_> I was young and stupid...
00:34:57 <alise_> ...now I'm just young.
00:35:21 <alise_> pikhq: I had to use PowerStrip (Windows monitor tweaking program) just to get that resolution.
00:35:31 <alise_> Windows sanely ended its resolution list a few places below that on the grounds that I'm fucking crazy.
00:35:40 <cpressey> Hey, so, why don't more language implementations ship with regression test suites anyway?
00:36:42 <cpressey> "I was young and stupid, now I'm young and stupid and blind!"
00:39:13 <alise_> Uh, I am actually blind.
00:40:08 <cpressey> alise_: You play Dot Action 2 remarkably well, then.
00:40:36 <alise_> Braille display + playing by ear.
00:41:40 <alise_> cpressey: NOTE: BLATANT LIES
00:43:57 <Sgeo_> My phone falls two feet, and the battery cover is gone
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00:44:40 <pikhq> Yup, Palin's running for Pres. in 2012.
00:45:07 * Sgeo_ might switch party to Republican just to vote against her
00:45:25 <Sgeo_> Unless she's running against Huckabee
00:45:27 <pikhq> *sigh* Fecking primary system.
00:45:28 <Sgeo_> Bit of a hard choice, then
00:45:50 <alise_> Write in Jesus; Diebold might think it's a good idea and we can all have some fun.
00:45:51 <cpressey> WHAAAAAT wait that's not surprising, only disappointing
00:45:58 <alise_> SORRY, "PREMIER ELECTION SOLUTIONS"
00:46:06 <alise_> NOT DIEBOLD REALLY NOT DIEBOLD PLEASE IGNORE THE DIEBOLD BEHIND THE CURTAIN.
00:46:33 <Sgeo_> pikhq, if you had to choose: Huckabee, or Palin?
00:46:44 <pikhq> Sgeo_: I shall only answer that in song.
00:47:10 <pikhq> *singing* Suicide is painless, it brings so many changes, and I can take or leave it as I please.
00:48:03 <Sgeo_> Maybe Palin... there's a chance she might quit halfway in her first term
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00:57:22 <zzo38> If you have look at esolang wiki recently, you might wonder why I created those templates. Hopefully you figure it out.
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01:18:13 <cpressey> idea: Democratic Topic Nazi Bot: If anyone attempt to change the topic of the channel, it changes it back immdiately. You can submit a topic change to the bot, but it only accepts it once a majority of users in the channel have approved it.
01:19:08 <alise_> cpressey: Better idea: optbot, which set the topic to "logurl | random unattributed line from the entire channel logs".
01:19:14 <alise_> It also quoted one at you if you highlighted it.
01:19:27 <alise_> (This inspired fungot's rather more involved Markov babble.)
01:19:27 <fungot> alise_: yes there's a lot more
01:19:34 <alise_> cpressey: It set it every few hours or something.
01:20:16 <alise_> zzo38: please don't spam templates like that
01:20:20 <alise_> even if it's for a reason, Graue will get angry
01:23:02 <zzo38> Why will Graue get angry?
01:23:07 <zzo38> Can't they ask at first?
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01:25:15 <zzo38> Someone else (Elliott) was trying to build the SKI calculus into MediaWiki, using also template namespace
01:25:52 <zzo38> Did you notice the Cn template links to xkcd?
01:29:40 <alise_> zzo38: I used the user namespace, didn't I?
01:30:03 <alise_> I was joking about the Graue thing anyway
01:30:07 <zzo38> alise_: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=10
01:30:20 <alise_> I stand thoroughly corrected. Carry on!
01:30:38 <alise_> The SKI calculus didn't work, btw.
01:30:41 <alise_> It's specifically designed not to.
01:30:46 <alise_> (The templating engine)
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01:32:27 <zzo38> The templating engine is specifically designed not to be Turing complete?
01:34:59 <cpressey> That would make sense to me. Who wants non-terminating templates?
01:37:19 <cpressey> btw, fungot has displayed some freakishly relevant responses recently.
01:37:19 <fungot> cpressey: yeah i don't think i'd do it on a computer though i can't read on a computer
01:40:32 <alise_> cpressey: optbot demonstrated remarkable sentience and malevolence on occasion.
01:53:07 <cpressey> The name's Moniker. Sobriquet Y. Moniker. The "Y" stands for Yclept.
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02:04:50 <cpressey> I mentioned this port in #lua and someone accused me of wasting time I could spend working on *their* project, or alternately, the cure for cancer
02:06:21 <alise_> cpressey: what was their project?
02:06:37 <alise_> (I won't maul them. probably)
02:06:44 <alise_> cpressey: also, put that thing in fucking doubling mode, not interlace argh my eyes
02:06:58 <alise_> ... and change your window title font, now
02:08:38 <alise_> Seriously why are you using that font.
02:08:55 <cpressey> "Purisa Medium" -- I wonder if I selected that? If so -- what was I thinking?
02:14:10 <cpressey> Also why are my FireFox fonts messed up? Happened after my system spontaneously reset this morning. Every page looks like the Roman character part of ShiftJIS pages
02:20:27 <alise_> Take a look at your preferences.
02:20:31 <alise_> The default fonts in particular.
02:20:34 <alise_> Failing that, open a terminal,
02:23:13 <cpressey> was changed to an ugly font called "serif" for some reason -- changed it to FreeSerif and it's not near as bad -- thx
02:27:58 <cpressey> SIOD back in the Amiga daze stood for "Scheme In One Defun".
02:28:15 <cpressey> I assume this transitioned to "Day", then to "48 hours"
02:28:40 <cpressey> Then to R6RS and then to not caring about Scheme. So it goes!
02:31:40 * cpressey is tempted to write a Pixley interpreter in C
02:32:31 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/pixley/
02:33:07 <cpressey> This is hardly a design, though.
02:33:15 <cpressey> Just a chipping away at something else.
02:34:34 <cpressey> pikhq: I should probably find something else to do with my time. Dot Action 2, or curing cancer, or just talking about random shit on IRC.
02:34:46 <pikhq> You could learn a language.
02:34:47 <cpressey> Oh, have I mentioned, I love Portishead?
02:35:07 <cpressey> pikhq: Hm. I could. I've never been very good at those.
02:35:33 <pikhq> Or (for amusement) you could learn Written Chinese without learning a spoken Sinitic language.
02:37:28 <alise_> <cpressey> SIOD back in the Amiga daze stood for "Scheme In One Defun". ;;
02:37:31 <alise_> <cpressey> I assume this transitioned to "Day", then to "48 hours"
02:37:36 <alise_> scheme in one defun still exists
02:37:43 <alise_> 48 hours is unrelated afaik
02:37:49 <alise_> http://www.cs.indiana.edu/scheme-repository/imp/siod.html
02:38:25 <alise_> <cpressey> Oh, have I mentioned, I love Portishead? ;; I have Third but have never listened to it and probably never will; I swear it was released slowed down 1000%.
02:38:42 <alise_> I mean, yeah, I know trip hop does that shit, but seriously, guys? Seriously?
02:39:18 <cpressey> alise_: A younger me would have hated them. Tastes change I guess. Also: Sneaker Pimps.
02:40:29 <cpressey> "Please forgive the lack of full compliance with IEEE or R4RS standards. Perhaps one of these days." <<SIOD's *old*>>
02:41:26 <alise_> SLIB is still coded for R4RS iirc
02:41:39 <alise_> Scheme 9 From Outer Space is R4RS, but that's Nils M. Holm.
02:42:39 <alise_> cpressey: You have to complete a multi-choice HTML text adventure just to get to the directory listing^W^Wsite.
02:44:20 <zzo38> I have created a help page indicating the purpose of the templates
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02:45:51 <cpressey> fizzie: While I appreciate your finding that alcohol is a GABA-receptor-inhibitor, I can't help but think there is a lot more to it than just that. These things are fermented food, and as such, chemically quite complex. I've noticed, for example, if I mix drinks (wine and beer) I get WAY more drunk WAY more quickly.
02:47:00 <cpressey> In a sort of existential rain puddle at the moment. Summoning Paddington bear...
02:47:44 <alise_> I have found out that if you mix wine, beer, cocaine, pebbles, cannabis, cyanide, paint thinner, paint thickener, paint, water, hydroxic acid, LSD, and heroin, you die.
02:48:06 <alise_> I think it's the hydroxic acid.
02:48:29 <pikhq> I have discovered that if you mix 1 kilogram of caffeine with 1 liter of water and drink, your tongue dies and then you die.
02:49:04 <pikhq> (caffeine is one of the most bitter substances. Your tongue shall hate you and then die.)
02:51:54 <cpressey> So I had this idea, right... it would have gone well with eso-std.org
02:52:37 <alise_> pikhq: Caffeine is lethal in that kind of dosage.
02:52:44 <cpressey> We should publish our own frickin' journal. JETICSARF. Journal of Esoteric Topics in Computer Science And Related Fields.
02:52:46 <pikhq> alise_: Yes, you would in fact die.
02:52:50 <alise_> It's lethal in quite small doses, even.
02:52:59 <alise_> cpressey: http://t3x.org/s9fes/index.html
02:53:02 <alise_> Can you get to the site????
02:53:07 <pikhq> alise_: Small per mass, perhaps.
02:53:17 <alise_> I have done it (by cheating; opening all the choices in tabs).
02:53:21 <cpressey> We woudln't need to actually write papers or peer review them. Just suggestive abstracts would be fine.
02:53:24 <pikhq> Fortunately, it's effective and readily available at much smaller doses.
02:54:21 <cpressey> alise_: ARGH DOWNLOAD LINK ON SIOD SITE BORKEN
02:55:43 <cpressey> "Related FIelds", of course, are any course of research that has been, or could be, undertaken on a computer.
02:57:31 <cpressey> "You are standing in front of a building. The door of the building seems to be locked. A look at the opening times reveals that they have closed just a few seconds earlier. "
02:59:06 <cpressey> i mean, global warming is one thing
02:59:21 <cpressey> but there is no way i can swallow this many pianos
02:59:33 <alise_> I think cpressey just tried my drug cocktail.
03:00:22 <alise_> I wonder if cpressey is faking it!
03:00:42 <cpressey> I think that site, when combined with Spanish wine, has the same effect as your cocktail
03:03:27 <cpressey> the journey to Antarctica begins with a single step
03:03:49 <cpressey> and ends with screaming at the unspeakable horrors contains within those mountains of madness
03:05:04 <cpressey> alise_: Read Dijkstra's papers ever?
03:05:49 <cpressey> http://userweb.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD13xx/EWD1305.html
03:09:12 <cpressey> The first language I ever learned was BASIC. So I'm not with him on the "no previous exposure to BASIC or FORTRAN" thing.
03:09:32 <cpressey> It is a disadvantage. But one can overcome it.
03:09:42 <pikhq> One can forget things.
03:10:11 <cpressey> pikhq: One can indeed. One can... shelve them, where they belong.
03:10:11 <Sgeo_> First language I was exposed to was VB5
03:10:16 <Sgeo_> And I still regret it every day
03:11:07 <cpressey> Oh, I was a big Visual Basic programmer once. VB3 was, in a certain way, awesome. VB4 was such crap and so quickly was replaced by VB5 that it made me loathe Microsoft.
03:12:25 <cpressey> And while most people can understand how Microsoft's empire is built on Windows, fewer can understand how it is *really* built on BASIC.
03:12:54 <cpressey> So many of those 8-bit micros had a BASIC that came from Microsoft.
03:13:18 <cpressey> The ZX81 didn't, as far as I know. ZX81 BASIC was so weird, though.
03:14:43 <cpressey> Trying to run SIOD on an Amiga 500 emulator, because I'm NUTS.
03:14:59 <cpressey> While listening to Portishead via Youtube.
03:16:30 <cpressey> Actually, SMETANA was first implemented in VB3. Along with a really neat toy called "Cyclobots" which I should really rewrite in Java someday.
03:17:40 <cpressey> Back when I had just moved into my own place, (well, with a roommate), and had a new, ugly PC with a /Hercules/ B&W graphics card. I think it was a 386.
03:17:42 <pikhq> cpressey: *Pirated* BASIC, no less.
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03:19:08 <cpressey> pikhq: I haven't researched it enough to know that, but I wouldn't be surprised. I've heard such stupid rumours repeated. Like how Gates sat down and wrote the BASIC ROM for (the Altair's CPU?) and it "worked the first time". WHAT UTTER BULLSHIT!
03:19:51 <cpressey> Gee, television, who'd have thought *you'd* ever distort history.
03:20:10 <pikhq> cpressey: Oh, I'm not saying that MS's Altair BASIC was pirated from some other author.
03:20:26 <pikhq> cpressey: I'm saying it was made popular due to being pirated a lot is all.
03:20:38 <pikhq> Much like other Microsoft software.
03:21:11 <pikhq> It's fairly well known and documented that Bill Gates actually wrote Altair BASIC.
03:21:22 <pikhq> I seem to recall that that was the last program he wrote much of, thoug.
03:23:42 <Sgeo_> Warrigal is trying to get me to grasp complex calculus
03:24:19 <alise_> pikhq: HE WROTE DONKEY.BAS DAMMIT
03:24:32 <alise_> At 4am in the morning!
03:25:20 <cpressey> pikhq: Yes, that sounds right. He also co-authored a very trivial paper on a contrived model of computation (a computer where reversing a list is O(1), iirc). These things seem to be trotted out to make him look like a technical marvel. But, like Jeff Bezos, his real talent is in business.
03:26:07 <lament> a computer where reversing a list is O(1)
03:26:17 <cpressey> I only remember the one with the gorilla throwing bananas
03:26:22 <lament> that's really cool, no?
03:26:27 <lament> definitely esoteric material
03:26:51 <cpressey> lament: Academia manages to suck the fun out of these things
03:27:26 <cpressey> "The player drives a car and encounters a donkey in the road."
03:28:17 <lament> cpressey: are you in grad school or something?
03:28:33 <cpressey> lament: No, like you, I have a job as a software developer
03:28:50 <cpressey> I'm not sure if grad school would be better or worse
03:29:06 <cpressey> Better in some respects, but completely insane in others
03:29:32 <lament> what i don't like about grad school is that it's a bunch of TOTAL DORKS
03:30:05 <cpressey> Total dorks that you have to explain yourself to
03:32:01 <alise_> GORILLAS.BAS is awesome
03:32:09 <cpressey> lament: On the *other* hand... what kind of development methodology are you enveloped in? I am daily exposed to the SHEER WONDER that is "AGILE".
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03:33:29 <cpressey> Hey, I wonder if Gorillaz ever... no. Their website is much cooler than that.
03:33:36 <Sgeo_> I just talked to my dad
03:33:39 <lament> i'm mostly exposed to the paradigm of "let's get it working with minimal effort and if necessary we'll patch it up later"
03:33:48 <lament> i guess it's the essence of agile
03:33:51 <Sgeo_> He said that I was at a computer since I was 4, and I had a choce between programming and games
03:34:05 <lament> but stripped of buzzwords it just feels like laziness and lack of work ethics
03:34:09 <lament> which is what it is :)
03:34:55 <cpressey> lament: That seems a lot better than being obsessed with sprints, estimation, what "points of effort" mean, "retros", "planning poker", etc etc
03:35:16 <lament> our manager is a huge agile guy
03:35:24 <lament> thankfully he stays out of things
03:35:41 <alise_> <cpressey> Hey, I wonder if Gorillaz ever... no. Their website is much cooler than that. ;; haha
03:35:47 <lament> but he goes to conferences and stuff, and it's easy to see how terrible it is in other places
03:36:02 <lament> the worst i've seen was a deck of cards by the company i think Industrial Logic
03:36:15 <alise_> cpressey: omg, he changed the site
03:36:22 <lament> it's a deck of cards with witty quotes and various agile concepts
03:36:23 <alise_> cpressey: i think it is unwinnable now
03:36:30 <lament> truly a horror to behold
03:36:48 <lament> oh, here they are http://www.industriallogic.com/games/eppc.html
03:37:03 <cpressey> "Question 4/3: As of 2008, which one was the last useful Scheme report? a: R3RS b: R4RS (arguably) c: R5RS (arguably) d: R6RS"
03:37:19 <alise_> cpressey: ha, he's made it more opinionated
03:37:36 <alise_> oh it closes when you do anything else
03:38:17 <cpressey> lament: omg we only have "planning poker" cards that consist of a crippled fibonacci sequence
03:38:50 <alise_> The professor is shocked by the sudden return to reality. He starts to scream. A few seconds later campus security arrives and kicks you out of the building
03:39:01 <cpressey> I could (sadly) convince a large number of people that we need these better cards
03:39:06 <lament> cpressey: this one? http://www.industriallogic.com/games/pp.html
03:40:12 <lament> cpressey: it seems that the driving force beyond all these approaches is the perceptions that programmers are like children and their environment should be like kindergarten
03:40:25 <lament> cpressey: this is also the impression i got from google
03:40:49 <lament> s/perceptions/perception
03:40:52 <cpressey> lament: lament No, not as interesing as those. We could just be using regular card, taking away 4, 6, 7, 9, etc
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03:42:07 <alise_> why does it list it twice
03:42:10 <cpressey> Someone here (fizzie? pikhq?) made a sage observation that many of these "agile" things seem to be derived indirectly from role-playing games. Instead of a "dungeon master" there is a "scrum master", and you play these games with cards and tokens...
03:42:46 <Sgeo_> pikhq, is Sarah Palin actually running?
03:42:57 <Sgeo_> Or was that a sick and twisted joke designed to scare everyone here?
03:43:05 <cpressey> lament: Pardon my inaccuracy in typing. I've been drinking :)
03:46:25 <cpressey> lament: On the plus side, I get to write code in Python (and sometimes Ruby), which, while it isn't ideal, isn't so bad.
03:49:27 <alise_> cpressey: I'm permuting all the answers to the quiz, hee.
03:49:36 <alise_> Except for the first question, whose answer I know.
03:49:50 <alise_> It hasn't let me in for any of them.
03:50:00 <cpressey> alise_: I would gather from this that he doesn't *want* people using S9FES.
03:50:03 <lament> cpressey: i found i'm a huge fan of C#
03:50:05 <alise_> cpressey: He is... an odd charcater.
03:50:18 <alise_> cpressey: All down wit' that Buddhism and shit.
03:50:27 <alise_> Basically deleted his website recently. etc.
03:50:39 <alise_> His computer is like 932479435 years old because he doesn't believe in buying things.
03:51:09 <cpressey> lament: I... have yet to really get into C#, but what little I did do with it, didn't make me puke. It's Microsoft's Java, as far as I'm concerned :)
03:51:23 <Sgeo_> lament, I'm using C#!
03:51:32 <cpressey> I was vaguely plannig on writing a PL-{GOTO} compiler which targeted .NET
03:51:50 <lament> well it's definitely better than java
03:52:08 <alise_> cpressey: Ooh, he's released a sci-fi novel!
03:52:09 <alise_> http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t3x.org%2Fsf%2Findex.html
03:52:16 <alise_> one day to be Charles Beville his quiet job on board a small research spacecraft up from and is involved in an odyssey, the extent of his to gradually begins to understand first.
03:52:16 <alise_> The expedition in which he participates, has the goal of technology to explore an alien to humanity could permanently change the culture. Soon begins Beville, the effects of foreign influence in his own body felt.
03:52:16 <alise_> When the change occurs after all, but she looks completely different than the clients of the mission itself had imagined it.
03:52:18 <lament> it has nice things like type inference and lambdas
03:52:37 <lament> but, i suppose like java, and much unlike for example haskell, it also has great debugging
03:52:43 <cpressey> alise_: Is this still Scheme 9 ?
03:52:58 <alise_> cpressey: Uhh, same guy.
03:53:10 <cpressey> lament: Yeah, Haskell's capacity for debugging is pretty meagre.
03:55:12 <alise_> I think maybe I am taking the quiz in the wrong place, or something.
03:55:21 <alise_> Like, you have to enrol or something first.
03:55:31 <pikhq> Well. How exactly do you go about debugging something with completely non-obvious execution order?
03:56:01 <cpressey> pikhq: You don't. You PROVE that your program is CORRECT. Therefore, not debugging NECESSARY.
03:56:22 <pikhq> cpressey: Nice theory, but Haskell's not really the language for that.
03:56:28 <alise_> "You are in a corridor. There are lots of doors, but they do not look inviting. There are other corridors to the south/east and to the south/west. One of the doors here looks somehow important."
03:56:36 <pikhq> Insufficient dependent typing.
03:56:54 <cpressey> pikhq: It came to a crossroads. It... I'm not sure it chose the right path.
03:57:20 <cpressey> Or, as the case may be, corridor.
03:57:23 <alise_> Yeah, no permutation works.
03:58:24 <alise_> "You need a magnetic card to enter the room."
03:59:07 <cpressey> There's no really good reason you couldn't make a great Haskell debugger (ok -- let's call it an "execution visualizer" to not upset the locals.) But, it just seems, no one has.
03:59:52 <lament> cpressey: ahh but it's so nice to be able to just step through the code
04:00:01 <pikhq> cpressey: It'd have to be a bit complex, though, due to the heavily non-linear execution.
04:00:20 <lament> which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong
04:00:41 <cpressey> A bit complex, but you could mitigate it. This is being evaluated, because you asked for this, because you asked for this...
04:00:49 <pikhq> Probably work based off the model of graph reduction, with highlighting of currently-being-evaluated expressions.
04:01:00 <pikhq> But yeah, totally doable if you had the urge.
04:01:30 <lament> cpressey: yes. no steps.
04:01:31 <cpressey> Tho I agree, most days I'd rather have a pure functional *eager* language.
04:01:43 <alise_> <lament> which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong
04:01:44 <alise_> <lament> which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong
04:01:47 <cpressey> Strangely, Erlang is closest to fitting that bill
04:01:48 <alise_> or you lack imagination
04:01:54 <alise_> (or are just used to imperativeness)
04:02:00 <pikhq> Actually, with that done, it'd become somewhat easy to add thread debugging.
04:02:01 <alise_> <lament> cpressey: ahh but it's so nice to be able to just step through the code
04:02:01 <alise_> <lament> which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong
04:02:04 <alise_> is what i meant to quote
04:02:11 <lament> alise_: i just think debugging is more important than actually writing code
04:02:13 <pikhq> Highlight multiple expressions at once.
04:02:23 <lament> haskell makes writing code nice and pleasant, but debugging not so much
04:02:45 <lament> the reason debugging is more important is because it's twice as hard
04:03:10 <alise_> cpressey: HOW DO I DO THE GAME ;_;
04:03:22 <cpressey> It's not more important to me personally, but it certainly is, industrially speaking
04:03:35 <cpressey> alise_: FUCKED IFFEN *I* KNOW, MATE
04:03:46 <pikhq> lament: It's also harder to make bugs.
04:03:54 <alise_> You really have been drinking.
04:04:10 <pikhq> Which is... Probably how large Haskell programs manage to get written at all, really.
04:05:17 <pikhq> lament: No non-trivial program is without bugs.
04:05:19 <cpressey> So... SIOD has a strange syntax for define... probably due to R4RS or something... (define (funcname arg1 arg2) ...)
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04:05:39 <cpressey> I'm used to (define funcname (arg1 arg2) ...)
04:05:47 <pikhq> Good static typing just makes certain classes of bugs damned hard to pull off is all.
04:05:56 <alise_> cpressey: That's Scheme's syntax.
04:06:01 <alise_> (define foo (...)) is not Scheme at all.
04:06:06 <cpressey> alise_: Then I am used to something crap I guess!
04:06:08 <alise_> It has always been (define (foo ...) ...)
04:06:16 <alise_> cpressey: Common Lisp has (defun foo (...) ...).
04:06:19 <alise_> But that's defun, not define.
04:06:24 <cpressey> I'm used to whatever DrScheme has been giving me.
04:06:26 <alise_> How can you have defined a Scheme dialect and not know this?
04:06:29 <alise_> Uhh, DrScheme does it this way too.
04:06:43 <cpressey> Oh I forgot! I hate (define ...) anyway.
04:07:11 <lament> at least define doesn't sound as discouraging as 'defun'
04:07:13 <alise_> cpressey: What's wrong with DEFINE?
04:07:30 <lament> function definition takes all the fun out of common lisp
04:07:45 <alise_> cpressey: OK, it definitely isn't the quiz.
04:07:51 <cpressey> alise_: Nothing except that it violates the whole lexical binding thing
04:09:27 <cpressey> How to 'splain. Well. Uh. You say (define x y), and you've gone and mutated the set of bindings, right?
04:09:57 <alise_> In the head of a function, it actually just serves as a let around the entire thing.
04:10:01 <alise_> (You can't define after the head of a function.)
04:10:18 <lament> because SCHEME IS A NAZI LANGUAGE
04:10:30 <alise_> You have to use let or set!.
04:10:31 <cpressey> See now that's wrong IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
04:10:34 <lament> what a dumb restriction
04:10:37 <alise_> No, it's right because it isn't mutation.
04:10:50 <alise_> It's more like ... a header.
04:11:05 <lament> well why is it not mutation?
04:11:07 <cpressey> Well... as a toplevel-only thing I can accept it... but only sort of
04:11:28 <lament> to make things easier for the optimizing compiler?
04:11:36 <lament> we all know THERE IS NO OPTIMIZING COMPILER.
04:11:38 <cpressey> And... I'm pretty sure I've seen it used badly. Maybe in a nonconforming scheme, but whay did I use excpet DrScheme?
04:11:49 <cpressey> OH DrScheme comes with a wicked "Jewels" game
04:12:14 <cpressey> Which was implemented on the Commodoree 64 as "Zoo Mania" where you match up animale heads instead
04:12:21 <pikhq> lament: We are opposed to MUTANTS. We should abort all infants with the X gene!
04:12:24 <alise_> cpressey: You know, DrScheme doesn't exist any more...
04:12:26 <cpressey> I played that constantly for a while
04:12:50 <cpressey> alise_: Yeah yeah. They REBRANDED.
04:12:53 <alise_> pikhq: We should abort all infants with the X chromosome!
04:13:31 <alise_> Also, post-term abortions!
04:13:49 <cpressey> lament: Heck yeah. Why SHOULD there be an optimizing compiler? ... Have you seen picoLisp? It's interesting.
04:14:09 <cpressey> Why compile at all? You're just going to want to REFLECT and stuff anyway!
04:14:14 <alise_> cpressey: The great thing about Scheme is the lengths you go to to implement it.
04:14:29 * cpressey gets lost in a twisty little maze of passages, all alike.
04:14:44 <cpressey> alise_: Me personally, or the general "you"?
04:15:07 <alise_> That control flow is FUN FUN FUN
04:15:12 <cpressey> That makes more sense than the ridiculous notions that were in *my* head.
04:15:29 <cpressey> Because I'm considering implementing Pixley in C.
04:15:39 <cpressey> Argh. Stupid to talk about such things.
04:15:59 <cpressey> Not smart to drink and IRC, either.
04:16:58 <pikhq> "Torchwood" is an anagram of "Dr. Who".
04:17:31 <alise_> And that's canon inside the universe.
04:17:38 <pikhq> *double effing groan*
04:17:40 <alise_> First person to figure that out will escape the Matrix that is the canon.
04:17:44 <alise_> pikhq: No, not the anagram.
04:18:03 <alise_> pikhq: It's not like Doctor Who has canon though.
04:18:28 <pikhq> alise_: It has canon. Just highly mutable.
04:18:31 <cpressey> I have fond memories of real Dr. Who, like I have fond memories of the Amiga 500.
04:18:53 <alise_> cpressey: The old series was shit; the new series is... mildly entertaining shit.
04:18:56 <pikhq> And it has plots. Characters? Well. Each arbitrary grouping of seasons does.
04:19:06 <cpressey> OK, so, uh, most of the characters were not *actually* well developed, but -- hey!
04:19:16 <alise_> pikhq: No, it has characterisations.
04:19:21 <alise_> Characters have actual personalities.
04:19:23 <pikhq> alise_: I quite like what classic Who I've seen. Sure, it's cheesy, but it's enjoyable.
04:19:35 <alise_> The plots... well... strings of bad guys is more accurate.
04:19:59 <cpressey> alise_: What people don't understand is that classic (Baker #1) Dr. Who is *not* sci-fi. It's horror.
04:20:09 <alise_> But it's not horrific.
04:20:31 <pikhq> cpressey: I prefer to call all of Doctor Who fantasy.
04:20:51 <pikhq> Because, well. It ain't exactly sci-fi, now is it?
04:20:57 <alise_> omg Patrick Stewart should be the next Doctor
04:21:09 <cpressey> pikhq: It's sci-fi-coloured, sometimes.
04:21:13 <pikhq> (I have a somewhat broad notion of "fantasy" and a strict notion of "sci-fi", though)
04:21:16 <pikhq> cpressey: Quite true.
04:21:19 <alise_> Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the U.S.S. TARDISprise.
04:21:31 <pikhq> alise_: Yes. Patrick Stewart makes things better just by being there.
04:21:47 <cpressey> Patrick Stewart as a renegade Time Lord -- fine.
04:21:54 <pikhq> Imagine how painful TNG season I would be if Patrick Stewart weren't there.
04:21:55 <alise_> If anyone hasn't seen Patrick Stewart on Extras, WATCH RIGHT NOW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg_cwI1Xj4M
04:22:23 <cpressey> Patrick Stewart, actually, thinking about it, would make a kick-ass renegade Time Lord.
04:22:26 <alise_> (It has a joke at the expense of Star Trek, if you want an additional excuse.)
04:22:35 <Sgeo_> My comp's being a prick
04:22:42 <cpressey> Insofar as "kick-ass" is an appropriate adjective to use here, whcih it isn't.
04:24:24 <cpressey> Y'know what else I have fond memories of, from that Dr. Who-and-Amiga-500 time?
04:25:33 <cpressey> Ah yes, the late 80's, and Canada, like the rest of North America, was just catching on to this new craze coming out of Japan -- a particular style of animation.
04:25:44 <cpressey> We actually called it "Japanimation" at the time.
04:26:23 <cpressey> There was an interest group for it in Manitoba, called M.A.N.G.A. Manitobans (something) New Generation Animation.
04:27:04 <cpressey> And there was this extremely schlocky, over-the-top, sci-fi-crime-drama(???) thing with these two chicks in "war bikinis".
04:27:27 <cpressey> Or was it the early 90's? Well, whatever.
04:28:32 <pikhq> It still befuddles me that we use the Japanese word for "animation" to refer to a Japanese style *of* animation.
04:28:54 <pikhq> Well, rather, a *set* of Japanese styles of animation.
04:29:01 <pikhq> It's not even a single style.
04:30:08 <pikhq> teme tihì ni na'ta!
04:31:45 * Sgeo_ lols at alise's video
04:33:19 <cpressey> alise_: Damn! You're right about (define (foo x) (* x x)) -- I must have been hallucinating the (define foo (x) (* x x)) syntax...
04:35:26 <cpressey> So anyway, Pixley, under SIOD, under Amiga 500? It is borderline possible.
04:36:23 <Sgeo_> alise_, you thought I was drunk yesterday.
04:37:30 <oerjan> *<alise_> I am never wrong in a way I cannot argue my way out of.
04:37:47 <cpressey> Sgeo was descriptively drunk yesterday, if not prescriptively so.
04:39:18 <Sgeo_> Nazis are, in theory, <3 able, if not sanely so
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04:43:19 <alise> "There is a horizontal division in this playfield, splitting it into regions called le ciel, on top, and la terre, below."
04:43:23 <alise> horizontal yet on top/below?
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04:44:30 <cpressey> "horizontal division" meaning, there is a horizontal line dividing up-part from down-part
04:45:49 <cpressey> ok anyway there are these two worlds, computation, and cybernetics.
04:46:06 <cpressey> no -- this is not to do with digigm
04:57:51 <cpressey> YOU HAVE NO IDEA (actually you do)
04:58:27 <oerjan> I AM THE PLATONIC ABSENSE OF IDEA
04:58:30 <cpressey> YOU HAVE NO IKEA (unless you do. CHRIS is a kind of corkboard, iirc)
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04:58:57 <cpressey> oerjan: You and I, we're the old farts here, aren't we?
04:59:25 <cpressey> I should probably learn to appreciate the solace that is The Pun.
05:00:10 <oerjan> i thought you were only in your twenties...
05:00:19 <lament> you're certainly farts
05:00:35 <cpressey> I'm.... closer to my forties than I want to think about right now, thanks/.
05:00:38 <oerjan> hard to do if you invented befunge in 1993
05:01:08 <oerjan> not _impossible_, but...
05:02:07 <oerjan> well i can at least take comfort in the fact i cannot get _closer_ to forty...
05:02:35 <oerjan> assuming that is a bad thing, you know.
05:04:11 <cpressey> Nothing wrong with maturity. Not that I have any...
05:06:58 <pikhq> Maturity? This is IRC.
05:13:35 <cpressey> I have never written a Mandelbrot generator.
05:14:02 <cpressey> I wonder if I will EVER write a Mandelbrot generator. Or if I will DIE first.
05:14:42 <cpressey> But Chris! Really, aren't there already ENOUGH Mandelbrot generators on this planet? Well, yes, probably.
05:15:26 <oerjan> i guess i _am_ an old fart, i distinctly recall i wrote a mandelbrot generator in the 80's
05:16:28 <pikhq> I distinctly recall only barely being able to be called "existing" in the 80s.
05:18:28 <cpressey> In the 80's, such things would have been fairly cutting-edge. I only remember fractals taking a share of the public imagination in the mid-90's
05:19:36 <pikhq> cpressey: Except for people who programmed home computers.
05:20:05 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that fractal generators became a fairly common thing to write about when you had enough graphics capabilities to render one.
05:20:30 <cpressey> pikhq: And/or had subscriptions to Amiga Factor magazine.
05:20:36 <cpressey> Actually, I am making that up.
05:20:47 <cpressey> I have no idea what the name of the magazine actually was.
05:26:50 <cpressey> So there are these two worlds, computation and cybernetics, but actually they are kind of duals of each other. Well, forgive me for being drunk, but it's not like I'd make more sense with this when I'm sober, I'm just more inclined to write it, now...
05:28:09 <cpressey> Computation: we want computers to be extensions of our own minds, to augment the *joy* that comes from thinking and reasoning. Cybernetics: we want computers to *replace* our own minds, to automate stuff we don't care about, to reduce the *drudgery* of thinking and reasoning.
05:28:45 <cpressey> Ohhh Immanuel Kant was a real piss-ant
05:29:13 <lament> cpressey: do you play Go?
05:29:57 <cpressey> lament: hM. Actually, no. I know there are several variations, and that it is a very intellectually hard game
05:30:14 <cpressey> Used to play chess. Don't anymore. Kind of boring.
05:31:05 <cpressey> lament: Is go something you play?
05:31:08 <lament> i really like go but kinda hate playing it
05:31:39 <lament> it's a very pretty game, the problem is that it's still a competitive activity
05:34:10 <cpressey> Yeah. Competition -- gee, speaking of maturity... I prefer more indirect forms of competition too.
05:34:36 <cpressey> I remember a "Go-Moku" game on the Apple II. It was nigh impossible to beat.
05:35:11 <cpressey> Also... implementing a much simpler variation of it, as a class project, for a data structures course, the 1st time I went to university (in the early 90's.)
05:35:24 <cpressey> Don't remember what that variation was called, though.
05:35:44 <lament> it doesn't get any simpler
05:35:56 <lament> the one with complicated rules is called renju
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05:37:52 <cpressey> I'm pretty sure it had a weird name that I don't recall :/
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05:38:38 <cpressey> ALso, I had a friend in high school, who went on to become an academic who was part of a team who proved some properties about Go and similar games (at U Alberta).
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05:39:28 <lament> academia sure takes all fun out of stuff :)
05:41:00 <cpressey> lament: yup. Something about enumerating all possible games of Checkers, ISTR
05:42:33 <coppro> cpressey: where do you live?
05:44:05 <pikhq> cpressey: I take it you love US immigration now. :P
05:45:48 <cpressey> coppro: Originally Winnipeg, Manitoba. Then Vancouver BC for a while. And for a very brief period, Windsor, Ontario!
05:50:07 <cpressey> Winnipeg used to be a really nice city. I miss it sometimes. It's gone a bit downhill, though. (everyone with any potential, left :/ )
05:51:48 * coppro is just now moving to Waterloo
05:52:14 <cpressey> Ha, I remembered someone here is going to U Waterloo, but I thought it was pikhq
05:53:02 <cpressey> and lament is presumably still in Canada, based on the shawcable address
05:53:11 <lament> what do you mean still
05:53:53 <cpressey> at one point, you was, at this point, you is. who knows about in-between?
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06:11:01 <cpressey> kareem was here earlier, I thought we scared him off with all the talk of HUMAN SACRIFICE
06:11:11 <cpressey> of course, could be a different kareem
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07:14:29 <Sgeo_> ...My Active Worlds citnum is going to be in the Factor docs
07:16:29 <Sgeo_> [ 1 1 + . continue 1 1 + . ] callcc0
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07:21:34 <Sgeo_> [ dup continue-with ] callcc1
07:21:42 <Sgeo_> Results in a continuation all by itself
07:29:06 <fizzie> (call/cc (lambda (k) (k k)))
07:35:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:36:54 <Sgeo_> Yep, my citnum's there
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07:38:24 <zzo38> I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!
07:42:20 <Sgeo_> http://github.com/doublec/factor/commit/639972379f3684792411909be3e8f06ac15c4ca9
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07:45:56 <zzo38> Sgeo_: What is that?
07:46:16 <Sgeo_> Some documentation for pattern matching in Factor
07:46:25 <Sgeo_> It was previously incorrect, now it's correct
07:46:38 <Sgeo_> And as an example value, they used _my_ citnum in Active Worlds
07:49:18 <zzo38> What is a citnum in Active Worlds?
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07:50:16 <Sgeo_> zzo38, on registration, users are given a uniquely identifying number
07:50:33 <Sgeo_> And choose a name, but the name can be changed anytime. The citnum is permanent
07:50:45 <fizzie> I am not a number, I am a free man!
07:51:29 * Sgeo_ is proud to be the number 346126
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07:54:02 * Sgeo_ needs sleep eventually
07:54:04 <zzo38> So that is the account number?
07:54:55 <Sgeo_> It's not private information, though
07:55:03 <Sgeo_> Anyone in AW can see anyone else's citnum
07:55:33 <zzo38> Now you can see what the templates I created on the esolang wiki are for......
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08:51:10 <oklopol> "<Vorpal> there are sooo many ways to play a violin. Try rendering anything by Paganini in midi. I doubt the result will be even passable" <<< yeah paganini is bullshit, he just knew how to make cool sounds with a violin
08:51:59 <lament> anything by bach would still sound good
09:09:26 <oklopol> "<lament> academia sure takes all fun out of stuff :)" <<< no
09:12:27 <oklopol> all true fun resides in academia, games are just one reflection of that fun on the outside, losing most of its inherent funity
09:13:57 <oklopol> i'm gonna go to uni, you know, for fun ->
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15:55:41 <nooga> oerjan: that was... unexpected
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15:55:59 <nooga> in fact, we also say 'hej' in Polish
15:56:10 <nooga> the difference is i->j
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16:09:18 <cpressey> Unsurprisingly, the latest version of SIOD does not build out-of-the-box on Linux. This is unsurprising because the latest version of SIOD is from 1996.
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16:34:54 <oerjan> simultaneously in other dimension
16:39:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, other dimensional computing sounds similar to quantum computing.
16:40:59 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Probably, but I have yet to see it have any meaning, in the implementation.
16:41:44 <cpressey> The C code is formatted like Lisp: curly bracket that ends a function definition is on the same line as the last statement of the function.
16:44:14 <Sgeo_> Scheme in one defun, to actually answer nooga's question
16:45:38 * nooga has got skin cancer
16:50:04 <nooga> well, i'm experimenting with an interesting OISC
16:50:51 <nooga> luckily it's not BRAIN cancer ;f
16:51:04 <oerjan> ominously irridescent skin cancer
16:52:33 <oerjan> body ravaging alien infecting nanobots
16:52:39 <Gregor> "Doctor, my skin is glowing."
16:52:43 <Gregor> "It's nothing to worry about."
16:52:45 <nooga> oerjan: cut that out!
16:52:52 <Gregor> "Thanks doctor!" *dies*
16:56:55 -!- nooga has changed nick to wnghtr.
16:57:43 -!- wnghtr has changed nick to chrzaszcz.
16:59:08 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, have robots zapped augur so zebras can zoom?
16:59:45 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Just a minute, I'll check.
16:59:56 <cpressey> augur: Have robots zapped you, and if so, did they say why?
17:00:20 -!- tombom has joined.
17:04:09 <cpressey> Please hold, as nasty thoughts of my head ooze over virtually every riddle.
17:05:08 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:05:22 <oklofok> i have no idea what fungot is
17:05:23 <fungot> oklofok: versus just going to play one more game that's it and ah he used to smoke
17:05:23 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:05:29 <fungot> oklofok: ( ( laughter)) irrelevant but i'm certain that nobody i know does either right so like it's nice to
17:05:36 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
17:05:53 <oklofok> i want that one that does ababa baba aba ba a
17:06:08 <oklofok> although what i was trying to do is obvious from that
17:06:11 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord test
17:06:13 <oklofok> so i guess it's pointless to continue
17:06:19 <fungot> cpressey pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:06:48 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, have robots zapped augur so zebras can zoom? <--- is there any reasonable context for it? Reading the preceding 20 lines indicates there isn't?
17:07:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, after turning on the monitor that is quite a strange first line to read
17:11:38 <fungot> oklofok klofok lofok ofok fok ok k
17:12:42 -!- distant_figure has joined.
17:13:28 <cpressey> Funny, undertakers never go over there.
17:16:13 -!- chrzaszcz has changed nick to ereswmara.
17:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Eris rues everything Swedish when Mr Arvid reads again.
17:18:38 -!- alise has joined.
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17:20:10 <alise> 08:45:38 * nooga has got skin cancer
17:20:48 <oerjan> ereswmara: no bots see their own messages at all, and most ignore the other bots as well
17:20:53 <fungot> oklopolklopollopolopolpololl
17:21:01 <oerjan> alise: yes rip it off quickly
17:21:13 <ereswmara> alise: oh shut up, it's not deadly
17:21:24 <Sgeo_> alise, my AW citnum is in Factor documentation
17:21:29 <alise> ereswmara: Awwwwwww. (Kidding; try not to die.)
17:21:49 <fungot> ITRALCENTRALCENRALCENALCENLCENCENENN
17:21:57 <alise> ^unscramble ITRALCENTRALCENRALCENALCENLCENCENENN
17:21:58 <fungot> INTNREANLECCENNETCRLANLECCELNARNAELC
17:21:59 <Sgeo_> http://github.com/doublec/factor/commit/639972379f3684792411909be3e8f06ac15c4ca9
17:22:07 <alise> doublec/factor != Factor
17:22:17 <alise> == one fork of factor
17:22:25 <alise> also, i don't get it
17:22:45 <Sgeo_> alise, I pointed out an issue with Factor's documentation regarding pattern matching
17:22:45 <alise> Sgeo_: did you suggest that just because it's your number thing?
17:23:02 <alise> if so, I hope you pointed it out. otherwise it's disingenuous.
17:23:09 <Sgeo_> I jokingly said 346126, mentioned what it was, and they included it
17:23:31 <Sgeo_> Although slava jokingly asked for cc and/or social security as a more real-life exampke
17:24:06 <alise> he may not have been joking.
17:26:04 <alise> oklofok: not right now, but i'm up to 66
17:26:09 <alise> which i can't logisticate properly
17:26:26 <oklofok> ass-licking idiotic shit eel
17:26:47 <oklofok> 64, i played a couple minutes just now
17:26:58 <Sgeo_> I'll cheat to help you
17:26:59 <oklofok> 64 was trivial once i did spaces with my right hand
17:27:01 <alise> i can give you a walkthrough for it
17:27:22 <alise> so have you finished it
17:27:25 <oklofok> yeah but i mean the one i was stuck in yesterday
17:27:50 <oklofok> "<oklofok> 64 was trivial once i did spaces with my right hand" <<< i see what may have confused you
17:28:09 <oklofok> by 64 i - obviously - meant 60
17:28:39 <alise> 23:21:34 <Sgeo_> [ dup continue-with ] callcc1
17:29:00 <oklofok> so to recap, 60 was easy with hand switch, and three after that were triv, 64 i haven't tried because i remember it took a bit of thinking
17:29:10 <alise> oklofok: i can tell you the order
17:29:11 <alise> after that it's easy
17:29:14 <alise> if you just go fast
17:29:45 <oklofok> i'll ask you if i get stuck
17:31:17 * oklofok is trying to see if that makes sense
17:31:22 * Sgeo_ hits Phantom_Hoover with an ettin
17:31:38 * Sgeo_ watches the ettin leave an obelisk
17:31:49 <cpressey> i would have thought kleptomaniacs would want to *take* obelisks *away* from kings
17:32:49 * Sgeo_ hits alise with a reference recognition failure
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17:38:08 <cpressey> so I want to have a functionalish language where 'take-argument' and 'provide-argument' are dual operations (sort of)
17:43:53 <cpressey> basically so along with currying, there is a "yrrucing" operation, which takes a function and yields a new function which requires one more argument
17:44:47 <cpressey> currying and yrrucing should ideally have nice algebraic properties, but they probably don't
17:47:06 <cpressey> make it available to the function. i was originally thinking in terms of named arguments. now i'm not, i think this is simpler.
17:47:36 <cpressey> yes, in a way it does. i wonder if that's what i'm thinking of
17:48:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to phntmh.
17:48:56 -!- phntmh has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
17:49:32 -!- cpressey has changed nick to Photon_Hamster.
17:49:42 -!- Photon_Hamster has changed nick to cpressey.
17:50:15 -!- cpressey has changed nick to pzth.
17:50:24 <oerjan> !haskell map sort ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"]
17:50:32 -!- pzth has changed nick to cpressey.
17:50:50 <oerjan> !haskell map List.sort ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"]
17:50:52 <EgoBot> ["HP_aehmnooortv","HP_aehmnoorstt"]
17:51:14 <cpressey> That was a lot funnier than I expected it to be
17:52:20 <Sgeo_> http://superosity.keenspot.com/
17:53:05 <oklofok> !haskell ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] >>= sort
17:53:11 <cpressey> oerjan: Good thing both my nick and Phantom_Hoover's are strings, or you wouldn't have been able to put them both in a Haskell list.
17:53:35 <oklofok> !haskell ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] >>= return . sort
17:53:44 <oerjan> oklofok: you need the List.
17:55:02 <oerjan> oklofok: i corrected it above
17:55:20 <oklofok> !haskell ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] >>= List.sort
17:55:22 <EgoBot> "HP_aehmnooortvHP_aehmnoorstt"
17:55:46 <oklofok> now i wonder why i thought i need a return
17:56:12 <oerjan> to avoid concatenation?
17:56:48 <oklofok> no, but yeah i guess that's what it does
18:04:03 * Phantom_Hoover notes that octothorpe is actually a real name for the hash sign.
18:04:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: what's in my head for yrruc is not quite a lambda form, though you could use it as one. actually, it should be ylppa, because it's a dual of application, not currying.
18:04:41 <Sgeo_> Why isn't there a Factor bot in here?
18:05:40 <cpressey> "You look like 10# of Falcon in a 5# bag, son"
18:06:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Ugh, Imperial measurements and confusion with currency.
18:06:27 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: And I blame *you* for nail sizes being called "pennies" and abbreviated "d".
18:07:31 <cpressey> The little metal spikes you hammer into wood. Yes.
18:08:58 <cpressey> blacksmiths liked pennies better i guess.
18:12:09 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Is this meant to persuade me to cease blaming you for it? Not going to happen.
18:13:25 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
18:14:51 <oerjan> merely comparest thou thine own statement to my correction, shall all become clear
18:15:59 <oerjan> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidus_(coin)
18:18:57 <oerjan> "The names solidus and shilling mark have the same background."
18:19:09 <cpressey> When I borrowed it to swat Phantom_Hoover, it was a palm frond.
18:19:18 <cpressey> It is clearly a magical object of some kind.
18:19:29 <oerjan> cpressey: definitely not what you borrowed, it had too many #'s
18:19:53 <cpressey> oerjan: All kinds of junk lying around here -- I must have picked up the wrong thing.
18:20:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's had pieces added before
18:20:35 <oerjan> and someone ate or stole the previous one, iirc
18:20:56 <cpressey> awk doesn't seem to have higher-order functions :(
18:21:55 <cpressey> i shouldn't report these findings
18:22:01 * oerjan gawks awkwardly at #awk
18:22:54 <cpressey> people here just follow me into them!
18:25:06 <cpressey> no, but PH did. it's weird though, many times when I join another channel, there is already someone from #esoteric there.
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18:25:49 <oerjan> i am sure there is some completely natural explanation that has nothing to do with us stalking you at all
18:28:25 <oerjan> unless it's Vorpal. i hear he is on every channel, ever. or something.
18:28:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
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18:29:26 <fizzie> oerjan: He has his eyes everywhere! You can't hide from him!
18:30:21 <cpressey> Verily, omniscientally regarding perfectly all locations.
18:30:28 <oerjan> fizzie: although you can confuse him with parts of conversation he has missed
18:30:40 <oerjan> he cannot keep _up_ everywhere, after all
18:32:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: my sources may have been slightly unreliable
18:34:06 <cpressey> ylppa(f,a) evaluates to f' which is like f except all occurrences of 'a' within it are replaceable. apply(f,a) replaces whatever is topmost replaceable in f with a.
18:34:33 <cpressey> sorry, i mean, apply(f,a) evaluates to f' which is like f with whatever was topmost replaceable in f replaced by a.
18:35:01 <cpressey> and i don't think apply actually evaluates; i think you need eval(f), and f must in that case have no replaceables
18:35:02 <Vorpal> <oerjan> unless it's Vorpal. i hear he is on every channel, ever. or something. <-- no, I'm on about 70 channels on freenode. In total a bit over 350 (yes I cut down heavily, used to be almost 500)
18:35:12 <Vorpal> freenode has way more channels, check /lusers
18:35:26 <Vorpal> * 37855 :channels formed
18:35:39 <Vorpal> sorry, make that "about 80" for freenode
18:36:08 <cpressey> this means: apply(ylppa(f,a),a) == f
18:36:10 <oerjan> in any case i recall you had to apply to get your channel limit lifted...
18:36:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes but they have increased it for everyone nowdays
18:36:30 <Vorpal> from the extremely silly 20
18:36:40 <Vorpal> so no problems any more
18:36:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, being on more than 20 channels is trivial
18:36:59 <oerjan> cpressey: that sounds rather close to lambda to me. i guess it could still do weird things with nesting
18:37:27 <cpressey> the main difference is that there are no "names" as such, just terms, i guess
18:38:15 <oerjan> so a could be any term?
18:39:14 <cpressey> "that is my idea. if you don't like it, i have others"
18:39:29 <cpressey> eh, it's funnier with "principles"
18:39:57 <oerjan> cpressey: that sounds like a zzo38 quote :D
18:47:25 * alise tries to make heads or tails of HAKMEM ITEM 172
18:47:28 <alise> <cpressey> this means: apply(ylppa(f,a),a) == f
18:47:33 <alise> cool, but what does ylppa actually do?
18:47:36 <alise> and how are you /still/ drunk?
18:48:02 <cpressey> No, just hungover. decided not to go on a long-weekend-long bender.
18:48:23 <cpressey> ylppa is... ah hell, just say it's lambda
18:48:23 <alise> so presumably we have some sort of quote-expression thing
18:48:46 <alise> would only work if you have a local named a
18:49:02 <alise> apply(ylppa([a+2],a),42) == [42+2]
18:49:06 <alise> eval([42+2]) == 44
18:49:09 <alise> cpressey: it's not lambda
18:49:22 <alise> it turns a sort-of-dynamically-scoped quotation into a lexically-scoped lambda
18:49:29 <alise> (really an unscoped one, executing in the current scope)
18:49:32 <alise> cpressey: that's way cool.
18:49:43 <cpressey> alise: you might understand it better than i do
18:49:58 <alise> cpressey: i believe so.
18:50:21 <alise> cpressey: here's how i was viewing it
18:50:25 <alise> [a+2] is just some quoted code, right?
18:50:37 <alise> a = 4; eval([a = 42])
18:51:03 <alise> a = 4; f = ylppa([a = 42], a); eval(apply(f, a))
18:51:10 <alise> assuming (x=y) is an expression returning y
18:51:18 <alise> the eval just evaluates to 42 and disregards the result
18:51:25 <alise> cpressey: so ylppa lifts a name into the []s closure
18:51:41 <alise> well it'd actually be ylppa([a = 42], 'a) where 'x is a symbol but you get the idea
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18:53:04 <alise> cpressey: so what you have invented is really cool actually
18:53:08 <cpressey> yeah you need symbols don't you
18:53:22 <alise> cpressey: it's like lambda, except it operates on pre-existing functions
18:53:27 <alise> they aren't functions
18:53:29 <alise> they're just quoted code
18:53:38 <alise> (so they inherit your locals, as if an evalled string)
18:54:01 <alise> rename proposed: instead of apply(f,x) we just write f*(x)
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18:54:15 <alise> instead of ylppa(f,'a) we write ^('a,f)
18:54:18 <cpressey> i was originally going to use * for yppla and / for apply
18:54:47 <alise> ylppa(f,'a) -> 'a/f
18:55:00 <alise> (because it lifts a quotation outside the [], evaluating it!)
18:55:24 <alise> *ylppa(f,'a) -> 'a*f
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18:56:05 <alise> ^(v*[q])/v === evaluating q, except the local v is restored at the end
18:56:42 <cpressey> alise: yeah i think this is all pretty close to what i was thinking on some level
18:57:08 <cpressey> as long as (x*y)/x = y, i'm happy
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18:57:36 <alise> cpressey: well, sort of
18:57:43 <alise> ('x*[x])/42 = [42]
18:57:52 <alise> ('x*[x])/x = [<value of x>]
18:57:57 <alise> ('x*[x])/'x = ['x]
18:58:00 <alise> cpressey: so it isn't quite that
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18:59:49 <ais523> imagine I insert my normal warning here about being very angry in RL
19:00:10 <ais523> and ofc that isn't the fault of anyone here, but it can still make me snappy on occasion
19:01:16 <alise> ais523: I have no idea what that normal warning is; I don't recall you ever being angry.
19:01:35 <ais523> it's along the lines of "I'm very angry/annoyed, but not with you"
19:01:47 <ais523> OTOH, being here generally helps to calm me down
19:01:51 <ais523> even if it doesn't actually help with anything
19:02:29 <alise> cpressey's come up with something that I understand better than him and think is awesome
19:03:02 <alise> it's a way to turn quotations that inherit their scope when you run them, that is, x=3; q=[x=(x+1)]; ^q ====> x is 4
19:03:06 <alise> into proper lexically-scoped lambdas
19:03:08 <cpressey> it lacks an algebraic property that i want, which is possibly why i don't see it as alise does
19:03:21 <alise> cpressey: yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to fix that
19:03:24 <alise> cpressey: oh! i know!
19:03:28 <alise> cpressey: apply takes a quotation, not a value
19:03:43 <alise> so ('x*[x])/[x] == [x]
19:03:45 <cpressey> the algebraic property is perhaps not as useful as the... what you see in it
19:03:55 <alise> so ('x*[x+9])/[x+4] == [(x+4)+9]
19:04:13 <alise> so ('x*q)/[x] == q
19:05:35 -!- calamari has joined.
19:09:24 <cpressey> why not 'x == [x]? then [x]*[x+9]/[y]=[y+9] ... [9]*[x+9]/[y]=[x+y] ... [x+9]*[x+9]/[3]=[3]... and I believe x*y/x=y (using * with higher prec than / here)
19:10:01 <cpressey> that's... not so happily algebraic
19:10:34 <alise> well 'x as [x] is fine
19:10:39 <cpressey> well, x is a self-annihilator of some kind. x*x=1. where 1 is the identity
19:10:50 <alise> i was just using x as a variable
19:12:40 <alise> oh * not as in multiplication
19:12:54 <alise> cpressey: this is not making sense any more
19:13:00 <alise> i did your property
19:13:46 <cpressey> i think i'm using your version, just noting that [x] and 'x are the same
19:14:35 <alise> [x]*[x] = [x]*[x], there's no real other name for it
19:14:40 <alise> since it does something new to the language inexpressable otherwise
19:14:53 <alise> ([x]*[x])/[x] == [x], though
19:15:02 <alise> cpressey: ofc if we allow [x] to be ylppaed then we can do
19:15:08 <alise> ([42]*[42])/[3] == [3]
19:15:40 <cpressey> [c]*[a+b+c] --> i'm going to need a new syntax for this
19:16:01 <oerjan> ([2]*[42])/[3] == [43]
19:16:28 <alise> also, make it $0, $1, etc
19:16:31 <alise> since you can ylppa something again
19:16:36 <alise> also, let's say :c, not [c]
19:16:45 <alise> because making a hole out of arbitrary expressions is freaky
19:16:47 <alise> and i think unneeded
19:16:56 <alise> cpressey: [1+4]*[1+4+3]
19:17:06 <cpressey> arbitrary expressions was the point
19:17:08 <alise> (should [1+4]*[1+3+4] do anything? no? why not?)
19:17:16 <oerjan> Har du ylppat din varg idag?
19:17:20 <alise> (they're undistinguishable quotations in every other sense)
19:18:09 <cpressey> ok, for my algebra's sake, in x*y and y/z, x y and z need to be the same "type"
19:18:16 <alise> you can get all of Valve's games for £52.99
19:18:21 <cpressey> so, arbitrary (quoted) expressions, all
19:18:28 <alise> (separately it'd cost £124.82)
19:18:41 <alise> <cpressey> ok, for my algebra's sake, in x*y and y/z, x y and z need to be the same "type"
19:19:12 <cpressey> anything you could stick into y, you can also stick into x, without going, "whoa that's freaky and unneeded"
19:19:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:19:47 <cpressey> this for algebra, note. for PL feature alone, if you think it's cool, i won't push it
19:20:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
19:21:00 <alise> yeah i'm just not getting this at all now :-D
19:21:15 <alise> btw Pixley-in-C should be easy. no continuations after all
19:21:15 <cpressey> ok, well... rome was not burned down in a day
19:21:23 <alise> assuming you don't mind very limited recursion
19:21:31 <cpressey> alise: i actually started it this morning, but gave up quickly
19:21:48 <alise> cpressey: want me to have a try at giving up?
19:21:50 <cpressey> simple, yes, but boring, plus i'm easily distracted,
19:21:56 <alise> cpressey: i assume you don't mind being recursion-limited to the size of the C stack
19:22:12 <cpressey> alise: you mean, you want to implement Pixley-in-C? be my guest
19:22:17 <alise> hmm, I take it bignums are considered required?
19:22:34 <alise> like arrowlisp but not as pure
19:22:46 <alise> arrowlisp: http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-arrowlisp-1175.html
19:22:50 <cpressey> if i knew arrowlisp, i'd say, yes! but i don't
19:22:52 <alise> purely symbolic lisp -- by Nils M. Holm, how coincidental.
19:23:50 <cpressey> i'm trying to figure out what i want to do, then i get distracted and i don't
19:23:55 <alise> cpressey: hmm, I have to do tail-call optimisation
19:24:01 <cpressey> bored through too many possibilities!
19:24:03 <alise> bugger, tree-walking will be a bit difficult
19:24:10 <alise> "There is no compiler, only a tree-walking interpreter. BTW, I do not think that there are many tree-walking interpreters out there that do tail call optimization. ArrowLISP does."
19:24:18 <alise> although of course he's deleted the page.
19:24:38 <alise> totally unhelpful sir
19:24:45 <cpressey> i don't know how that works out in this
19:24:53 <alise> wait, what do you mean by threading it?
19:25:06 <alise> a compiler may actually be easier than an interpreter
19:25:21 <cpressey> in each node, attach a pointer to the "next" node in the evaluation sequence
19:26:02 <cpressey> you're basically trampolining through the tree instead of walking it, after that
19:26:33 <cpressey> of course, at some points, you need to make decisions and/or store/restore savepoints
19:26:44 <cpressey> mostly just like a linear machine would
19:27:12 <alise> cpressey: i'm starting to think a compiler here would be the easiest thing
19:27:15 <cpressey> at any rate, i know you can do continuation-like/TCO-like stuff with a threaded tree, because i've done it before
19:27:25 <alise> I could even write it in Pixley (AIEEEEEEEE)
19:27:29 <cpressey> as long as the target language does what you want, is fine
19:27:45 <alise> well, pixley with a wrapper to translate a bunch of symbols into a string
19:27:49 <cpressey> (that was why i did the tree threading when i did -- couldn't find a target language that i liked)
19:28:07 <alise> (abc def (lbrace)) -> "abcdef {"
19:28:22 <alise> hmm. that might be more than a little difficult
19:28:42 <alise> oh well, sounds fun anyway
19:28:52 <cpressey> i was thinking to just intern all symbols
19:28:55 <alise> although since it can't self-host without a wrapper, what's the point
19:29:01 <alise> cpressey: it needs symbol->string
19:29:16 <alise> wrt symbols: ichbins just makes them into C variables with a heap location as the value, iirc
19:29:34 <cpressey> it can self-host without a wrapper, it's just ugly
19:30:16 <cpressey> if an interpreter literally embedded within an interpreter counts as self-hosting
19:30:45 <alise> cpressey: no, it can't, because it wouldn't be able to output the string
19:31:04 <alise> cpressey: because you have no string->symbol
19:31:32 <cpressey> you could use a postprocessor :)
19:31:47 <alise> well, precisely, but then what is the point?
19:32:10 <alise> cpressey: my suggestion:
19:32:15 <alise> allow "..." but let it denote a symbol, not a string
19:32:20 <cpressey> (# (i (n (c (l (u (d (e (space (quote (s (t (d (i (o (quote (....
19:32:30 <alise> cpressey: that's what i said
19:32:38 <alise> in the middle of those
19:33:10 <alise> cpressey: since Pixley has no way of distinguishing symbols from any hypothetical string,
19:33:14 <cpressey> does pixley have (a . b)? i forget
19:33:17 <alise> "foo" denoting a symbol would be fine
19:33:22 <alise> cpressey: presumably it has cons
19:33:40 <cpressey> you can (cons (quote a) (quote b)) iirc
19:34:39 <alise> "foo" being a symbol?
19:34:52 <cpressey> wait, ArrowLisp and Scheme 9... oh yeah, you said.
19:35:07 <alise> <cpressey> oh, that would be marvellous
19:35:07 <alise> <alise> what would?
19:35:07 <alise> <alise> "foo" being a symbol?
19:35:58 <cpressey> marvellous would be self-hosting a Pixley compiler in Pixley and having it output a huge sexp of (cons (quote ...)) which a postprocessor turns into a flat text file to feed to a compiler
19:36:12 <cpressey> marvellous in the gloriously gory sense
19:36:29 <alise> cpressey: unfortunately, i think Pixley is not expressive enough to write a compiler in
19:37:03 <alise> have you read ichbins? wonderful.
19:37:06 <cpressey> maybe a simple compiler for some esolang
19:37:31 <alise> http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/icbins/icbins.tar.gz
19:37:37 <alise> http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/ichbins.tar.gz
19:37:57 <alise> Scheme-ish-subset (forget whether it's actually a proper subset of Scheme or not) to C compiler, very short.
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19:39:01 <alise> the former is bigger, and includes a compiler
19:39:05 <cpressey> Darius Bacon, have I heard hat name before...?
19:39:06 <alise> and includes an interpreter
19:39:08 <alise> but not nearly as interesting
19:39:10 <alise> cpressey: probably
19:39:15 <alise> http://www.accesscom.com/~darius/
19:39:31 <alise> heh he called a wiki ikiwiki
19:39:35 <alise> wonder if it came before the more famous one
19:39:47 <alise> *called some wiki software
19:39:55 <alise> cpressey: well, probably = maybe
19:41:38 <cpressey> i think I have, and he's clearly done a lot, although i can't pinpoint what it woul dhave been in association with.
19:43:18 <alise> anyway, ichbins' language is expressive enoug hthat expressing its more complicated constructs is no problem
19:43:24 <alise> pixley, being just below it, seems much harder
19:43:32 <alise> as it's the fundamental attributes that make compiling it hard, not the extra features
19:43:59 <alise> cpressey: OTOH, a Pixley->C compiler in some other language is utterly uninteresting
19:44:18 <alise> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)?
19:44:18 <alise> I'll only ask another 100 times.
19:44:18 <alise> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)?
19:44:18 <alise> I'll only ask another 99 times.
19:44:19 <alise> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)?
19:44:21 <alise> I'll only ask another 98 times.
19:44:23 <alise> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)?
19:44:25 <alise> I'll only ask another 97 times.
19:44:27 <alise> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)?
19:44:29 <alise> -- the result of ^D-spamming Scheme 48
19:45:40 <cpressey> alise: there were 2 minutes left before the 48 hours were up, so they decided to have some fun
19:47:43 <cpressey> alise: that uninterestingness, plus picoLisp, plus the desire to write simple beautiful C programs, led me to think of pixley interpreter in C, only
19:48:02 <cpressey> i didn't even consider self-hosting a Pixley compiler
19:48:40 <alise> you're right, doing it picolisp-style would be fun
19:49:09 <cpressey> it would have to be picoLisp-style. well not *have* to, but, yeah.
19:49:24 <cpressey> but more than my brain can handle right no
19:49:53 <alise> cpressey: problem is picolisp style usually involves a different language :)
19:50:24 <ais523> alise: well, exiting after 100 consecutive EOFs makes more sense than asking every time
19:50:36 <ais523> because if stdin actually /is/ at EOF or closed, you probably want to exit rather than hang indefinitely
19:50:46 <alise> ais523: but it's the interactive REPL!
19:50:59 <ais523> you could be piping something into a REPL
19:51:07 <alise> cpressey: like the different nil structure
19:51:12 <alise> ais523: and get the 500 > > > > >s?
19:51:13 <ais523> or, say, communicating with it via netcat or something, and have broken the connection
19:51:24 <alise> because it prompts you
19:51:28 <alise> ok, if you break the connection I guess
19:51:48 <ais523> what if your terminal ran out of disk space?
19:52:02 <ais523> (it would be hilarious if that actually happened for some terminal)
19:53:09 <alise> grr, why the fuck isn't netcat in the arch repositories?
19:53:19 <alise> it makes one angry
19:53:29 <cpressey> alise: are you looking for it under the name 'nc'?
19:53:45 <alise> it has GNU netcat, patched netcat, OpenBSD netcat, IPv6 netcat
19:53:50 <alise> No original Hobbit netcat
19:54:44 <alise> lol nc110.tgz is a tarbomb
19:54:54 <cpressey> ais523: or maybe your teletype ran out of paper!
19:56:21 <ais523> alise: I keep muddling tarbombs with zipbombs
19:56:47 <ais523> it's crazy that two words with such similar etymology have such different meanings
19:58:18 <alise> It is freely given away to the Internet community in the hope that
19:58:18 <alise> it will be useful, with no restrictions except giving credit where it is due.
19:58:18 <alise> No GPLs, Berkeley copyrights or any of that nonsense. The author assumes NO
19:58:18 <alise> responsibility for how anyone uses it.
19:58:23 * alise wonders how valid that is
19:58:28 <alise> (it's in Netcat's readme)
19:59:51 <ais523> very-free-content licences may have no effect at all in many countries
20:01:06 <ais523> meanwhile, it always amuses me when BSD advocates get angry with someone sublicensing a derivative of their code as GPL
20:01:06 <pikhq> alise: In the US, and probably in other common-law countries, it is perfectly valid.
20:01:39 <pikhq> Because when the wording is unclear, intent takes precedence, and the intent is 100% obvious.
20:01:41 <ais523> pikhq: the major argument against is based on contract law, rather than copyright law
20:01:53 <alise> ais523: what would you list the license as?
20:02:09 <alise> (as opposed to "GPL", "MPL" etc.)
20:02:10 <ais523> contracts aren't enforceable at all unless they have benefits for both sides
20:02:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:02:25 <alise> ais523: that's not a precise identifier, though
20:02:29 <alise> (I can put "unknown")
20:02:29 <pikhq> ais523: Except that copyright licenses are not contracts.
20:02:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:02:37 <alise> <ais523> contracts aren't enforceable at all unless they have benefits for both sides ;; really?
20:02:42 <ais523> if you need the precise licence, copy the whole thing
20:02:49 <ais523> alise: in the UK and US, at least
20:02:54 <pikhq> alise: Yes. Though "benefit" is somewhat vague.
20:02:58 <alise> The license under which the software is distributed. A licenses package has been created in [core] that stores common licenses in /usr/share/licenses/common, i.e. /usr/share/licenses/common/GPL. If a package is licensed under one of these licenses, the value should be set to the directory name, e.g. license=('GPL'). If the appropriate license is not included in the official licenses package, several things must be done:
20:02:59 <alise> The license file(s) should be included in: /usr/share/licenses/pkgname/, e.g. /usr/share/licenses/foobar/LICENSE.
20:02:59 <alise> If the source tarball does NOT contain the license details and the license is only displayed elsewhere, e.g. a website, then you need to copy the license to a file and include it.
20:03:00 <alise> Add custom to the license array. Optionally, you can replace custom with custom:name of license. Once a license is used in two or more packages in an official repository (including [community]), it becomes a part of the licenses package.
20:03:49 <pikhq> For instance, trading $1 for your soul would be a perfectly valid contract if you could argue that a reasonable person aware of the full consequences would agree to it.
20:03:52 <ais523> alise: it seems from that that it's a license that's only used by one project, so you should just add it to /usr/share/licenses
20:04:03 <alise> ais523: i've just given up on making a package for now
20:04:13 <pikhq> (contracts in common-law are invalid if the terms are completely crazy)
20:04:13 <ais523> pikhq: assuming that the law considers souls vaulable
20:04:17 <alise> (it's not like nc110 will ever be UPDATED)
20:04:41 <ais523> "unconsionable" contracts, ones that nobody sane would agree to, are rejected
20:04:51 <pikhq> ais523: Having any value at all? Well, that would depend on the opinion of the court.
20:04:53 <ais523> but that's a different rule from the one stating that contracts must have consideration for both sides
20:04:59 <ais523> pikhq: yes, as in any value at all
20:05:02 <alise> hmm, is there an opposite to -static?
20:05:04 <alise> -dynamic doesn't work
20:05:32 <cpressey> < ais523> meanwhile, it always amuses me when BSD advocates get angry with someone sublicensing a derivative of their code as GPL
20:05:34 <alise> I can just do STATIC=
20:05:41 <ais523> there's a UK precedent somewhere that a crisp packet counts as sufficient value, especially as the contract in question was made in an attempt to encourage people to buy crisps
20:05:48 <alise> ais523: I don't mind people who do that, btw
20:05:52 <alise> although I won't incorporate their changes or anything
20:06:20 <alise> and I probably won't appreciate them recommending their version to people e.g. on any mailing lists
20:06:30 <alise> but then that applies to any BSD-licensed derivatives I dislike, too
20:06:40 <alise> (as in, recommending it on a regular basis)
20:06:43 <pikhq> ais523: The standard for "counting as consideration" in contracts here is the US. Not legal precedent or anything, just common practice if you really don't want much of anything in return for it.
20:06:47 <alise> (without significant productive contributions)
20:06:58 <ais523> pikhq: you mean USD, don't you?
20:07:11 <pikhq> "Here in the US is $1"
20:07:22 <pikhq> alise: Probably count.
20:07:28 <pikhq> alise: $1 is just what's normally done.
20:07:40 <ais523> pikhq: there's a story where Feynman was offered one of those contracts and actually tried to claim the dollar
20:07:47 <ais523> apparently people rarely bothered
20:07:48 <cpressey> I have a somewhat weird license question
20:07:54 <pikhq> And he was perfectly in the right to do so.
20:07:58 <alise> I have a brain tumour
20:08:08 <pikhq> (that can buy a soda!)
20:08:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
20:08:16 <ais523> alise: if that's true, that's bad and seek medical attention immediately
20:08:33 <alise> ais523: I was trying to be vaguely witty wrt what cpressey said.
20:08:39 <alise> I think it would be hard for me to know that I have a brain tumour without an expert telling me so.
20:08:43 <cpressey> Is it possible to dual-license something as both public domain, and MITL'ed?
20:08:55 <pikhq> Public domain is the lack of copyright.
20:09:07 <ais523> cpressey: you can use something like the Creative Commons Public Domain Dedication
20:09:15 <pikhq> Though, it's arguable whether or not you can *actually do that* in the US.
20:09:23 <ais523> which is an attempt to create a version of making things public domain that actually works
20:09:24 <pikhq> And it's genuinely impossible in some other countries.
20:09:28 <cpressey> pikhq: Not even if I make two otherwise-identical versions, copyright one, place the other in PD?
20:09:29 <Gregor> I like jQuery's license. Disjunction of MIT and GPL. Clearly a license choice made by somebody that has no friggin' clue.
20:09:39 <pikhq> cpressey: Not dual license then.
20:09:42 <cpressey> Gregor: Oh yes, much more amusement
20:09:44 <pikhq> Just coincidentally identical works.
20:09:46 <ais523> Gregor: it makes sense if you think that the MIT license might not be binding for some reason
20:09:59 <cpressey> Gregor: "In other words... MIT?"
20:10:08 <alise> is statically linking against glibc ever a good idea?
20:10:17 <Gregor> alise: No. Not glibc. Other libcs, sure.
20:10:22 <pikhq> ais523: In other words... If you have no friggin' clue.
20:10:27 <alise> Gregor: yeah, it's just that nc tries to do it
20:10:40 <cpressey> pikhq: Maybe not technically a dual license, I agree. But the effect of one
20:10:43 <pikhq> alise: Glibc cannot be statically linked, basically.
20:10:49 <ais523> statically linking a libc is very common on certain platforms
20:10:50 <pikhq> You can try, but you get a binary that dlopens stuff.
20:10:51 <Gregor> Probably back when nc was written, it was a less-bad idea :P
20:11:07 <alise> ok, here's my guide to compiling Hobbit netcat on Linux: in netcat.c, after the inclusion of fcntl.h, add the line [[#include <resolv.h>]]. Then [[make linux STATIC=]].
20:11:07 <ais523> but I agree that glibc is probably not very good at that
20:11:35 <Gregor> And what's the point of this?
20:11:35 <alise> # BLOCK 9 freq:1949
20:11:36 <alise> # PRED: 8 [50.0%] (true,exec)
20:11:36 <alise> # SUCC: 11 [100.0%] (fallthru,exec)
20:11:38 <alise> What the heck is this.
20:11:42 <alise> Gregor: no, it isn't
20:11:44 <cpressey> The source of my question was, I was wondering if there was a way to get around the fact that public domain isn't recognized in some countries. (in those countries, you can use the copyrighted version which grants you pretty-free copying rights instead.)
20:11:49 <alise> and even if I liked it,
20:11:55 <alise> I wouldn't use it, because I don't approve of stealing names like that
20:12:06 <alise> it's a blatant lifting of the name of another program
20:12:09 <Gregor> alise: Just like GNU cp stole UNIX cp's name? :P
20:12:11 <alise> like calling ReactOS "Windows"
20:12:12 <ais523> perror(&" "[0]) means perror(" ")
20:12:13 <cpressey> I feel like zzo38 even asking, tho
20:12:30 <alise> Gregor: "netcat" with the basic CLI interface and options is not nearly as obvious as "cp x y" copying x to y.
20:12:43 <Gregor> alise: But it's intended to be.
20:12:45 <alise> netcat is a relatively well-known brand in unixy circles
20:12:47 <alise> Gregor: no, "nc" is
20:12:52 <alise> if you read the readme
20:13:18 <ais523> how many of the 676 two-lowercase-letter names have a reasonably standard meaning as commands on UNIX-like systems?
20:13:19 <alise> does anyone know what a file like netcat.c.193r.pro_and_epilogue is?
20:13:22 <Gregor> Anyway, socat is better.
20:13:27 <alise> I think when I did -dynamic
20:13:31 <alise> one of them made it generate that crap
20:14:04 <Mathnerd314> anyone in here doing an entry for http://www.codequarterly.com/code-challenges/markup/ ?
20:14:30 <alise> I'll probably use Hobbit netcat 1.10 until the second coming of Jesus^W^W^W^WIPv6 is implemented; then I'll use an IPv6 patch on it.
20:14:38 <alise> Mathnerd314: not afaik
20:14:55 <alise> Mathnerd314: that looks boring
20:15:12 <Mathnerd314> well, parsing using esolangs is probably hard
20:15:39 <ais523> alise: IPv6 is implemented basically everywhere nowadays
20:15:51 <ais523> even Windows (from Vista onwards) tries to use IPv6 where it can, and IPv4 only where it has to
20:15:53 <alise> ais523: yes, but nobody actually /uses/ it
20:15:58 <ais523> the major issue is that ISPs don't support it
20:15:59 <alise> and most ISPs don't support it
20:16:03 <alise> making it irrelevant
20:16:13 <alise> I suspect we'll NAT ourselves to death before IPv6 ever happens
20:16:18 <alise> and it could be very, very bad
20:16:30 <ais523> how long before we run out of NAT space?
20:16:44 <ais523> NAT effectively gives us two more octets on our addresses
20:16:45 <alise> ais523: doesn't it effectively make one IP contain the entire IPv4 space?
20:17:03 <ais523> and I'm not convinced that that's enough for the reasonable future
20:17:10 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:17:20 <alise> ais523: I bet we can make Super NAT.
20:17:32 <ais523> alise: well, the next step onwards will probably be some sort of "static NAT"
20:17:41 <alise> ais523: IMO the "best thing" would be for a technological country like Japan to institute some legally-required IPv6 migration plan.
20:17:50 <alise> Hopefully it'd trickle to the rest of the world.
20:18:09 <ais523> well, the entirety of Qatar is behind a NAT
20:18:10 <alise> I don't think the ISPs will do it on their own.
20:18:15 <ais523> just the one NAT for the whole country
20:18:30 <alise> ais523: yeah, but they barely matter on the internet :P
20:18:38 <ais523> presumably, if they get more than 65535 people trying to load web pages at once, they have to delay some of the requests
20:18:47 <ais523> alise: that could be the reason why...
20:19:07 <alise> ais523: the only African country I see represented on the internet is South Africa
20:19:21 <alise> and Hiato is the only South African I've actually talked to on the internet, as far as I'm aware
20:19:28 <alise> where is Hiato anyway? he's fun
20:19:48 <ais523> alise: it depends on which parts of the internet you go for
20:20:07 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:20:08 <ais523> several third-world African countries, the Internet works via mobile phones, and is used for trade and farming information
20:20:14 <alise> ha, farming information
20:20:32 <alise> ais523: I know that mobile phones are ludicrously popular in Moscow
20:20:36 <ais523> it's pretty important if the vast majority of your population are farmers
20:20:42 <alise> or at least, that's the impression I got from the single Moscow...ian I knew
20:20:55 <alise> (and that PCs aren't used nearly as much for the internet)
20:20:58 <alise> cpressey: Yes, but I'd already typed Moscwo!
20:21:01 <fizzie> Internet is especially important if the vast majority of your population are GOLD farmers.
20:21:52 <alise> Moskau, fremd und geheimnisvoll. Türme aus rotem gold. Kalt wie das eis.
20:23:22 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQAKRw6mToA
20:23:34 <alise> (Perhaps more well-known for the mondegreen-subtitled English version.)
20:23:36 <pikhq> From German "Deutsch" and Japanese "語" (language)
20:25:42 <pikhq> (romanised by pikhq as "kò")
20:26:09 <alise> Romanised by normal people as?
20:26:18 <cpressey> Why, oh why, did the designers of irssi make the scroll wheel recall previous lines of text types, instead of scrolling the scrollback??
20:26:26 <pikhq> In Hepburn, Kunreishiki, and Nihonshiki.
20:26:30 <alise> cpressey: that's your terminal
20:26:34 <alise> there is no "scrollwheel" control character
20:26:37 <ais523> cpressey: in Konversation, it depends on where the mouse is
20:26:39 <alise> probably it is sending up and down
20:26:44 <alise> rather than pgup and pgdown
20:26:47 <alise> you may be able to configure this.
20:26:51 <ais523> but yes, many terminals translate the scrollwheel into direction keys
20:26:52 <cpressey> alise: in a normal terminal, it scrolls
20:27:03 <alise> cpressey: yes, but that's using the real terminal's text scrollback
20:27:06 <alise> which can't work when using curses
20:27:09 <cpressey> I mean, in a terminal of mine hat isn't runing irssi
20:27:12 <pikhq> alise: The ` diacritic is a voicing mark for the mora, BTW.
20:27:12 <alise> pikhq: what is it pronounced like in English-phonetics?
20:27:16 <alise> cpressey: irssi uses curses.
20:27:24 <ais523> cpressey: that terminal is on the secondary screen rather than the primary, though
20:27:26 <alise> cpressey: it's unavoidable
20:27:33 <pikhq> alise: Hepburn romanisation follows English phonetics. Always.
20:27:37 <ais523> so there is no in-terminal scrollback
20:27:41 <alise> pikhq: quite convenient. :P
20:27:44 <cpressey> alise: It could send PgUp and PgDown instead of Up and Down
20:27:56 <alise> cpressey: sure. that'd break other things
20:27:57 <ais523> what irrsi /could/ do would be to detect up-up-up faster than anyone can type, and convert it to pgup
20:28:05 <pikhq> Unfortunately, that means it *doesn't* follow Japanese perception of the phonemes at all.
20:28:12 * Sgeo_ just ate an orange
20:28:12 <cpressey> alise: Is there any way I can change it?
20:28:19 <alise> cpressey: maybe. what terminal?
20:28:27 <Sgeo_> <Gregor> Tell us all about your fruit-consumption!
20:28:27 <pikhq> Not bad for discussing Japanese words in English. Sucks for actually learning Japanese.
20:28:34 <pikhq> And yet, it's used for actually learning Japanese.
20:28:34 <cpressey> GNOME Terminal 2.24.1.1, apparently
20:29:02 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:29:11 <pikhq> Nihonshiki and kunreishiki are both closer to Japanese perception of things.
20:29:20 <cpressey> might need to run a better terminal :)
20:29:47 <alise> cpressey: gnome-terminal is fine.
20:30:06 <pikhq> (the main difference between the two being that nihonshiki retains a couple of distinctions that are now only made in *written* Japanese, not spoken (for Standard Japanese; some dialects retain this distinction))
20:30:09 <alise> i don't know of any terminal which can actually configure it
20:30:16 <alise> Gah, I got to two dots on 66.
20:30:18 <alise> oklopol: how do you do 66 :|
20:30:55 <Sgeo_> No one cares either about my orangeness or noting how Gregor would note how no one cares?
20:31:26 <pikhq> Unfortunately, they all do things like marking geminate consonants by doubling the vowel, which can cause some ambiguity.
20:31:43 <pikhq> And fail horridly at unusual uses of kana.
20:32:40 <Vorpal> um, trying to find how to make gnuplot plot a simple data series. As opposed to a function. Not having much luck. Anyone happens to know? The docs are huge.
20:33:32 <fizzie> If you actually do the xterm-alike mouse support, the scroll wheel will send button 4/5 events, but I doubt irssi does mouse support.
20:33:46 <Vorpal> alise, as I said, docs are huge and I hoped someone here knew. Thanks
20:33:49 <Sgeo_> Mathnerd314, wish you could transfer some of that hunger to me
20:33:57 <ais523> fizzie: and sideways mouse wheel is buttons 6 and 7
20:34:05 <Vorpal> and I'm in a bit of a hurry
20:34:22 <alise> Sgeo_: you can eat while not hungry.
20:34:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: 'plot "datafile"' is the simplest thing you can do, but usually you need some options how you want it to be plotted.
20:34:38 <pikhq> (can't even romanise Okinawan with it. Bleeeeh)
20:34:45 <Sgeo_> Mathnerd314, I'm on the not particularly healthy side of thin
20:34:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah, need to find docs on data file format
20:35:16 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo_: better to waste away than to grow morbidly obese
20:35:18 <fizzie> You can have scanf-style format strings, but by default tab-separated columns of numbers work fine.
20:35:27 <alise> Mathnerd314: said like a true anorexic
20:35:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: What's your data file "originally" like?
20:36:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, a number of size\n<time command output>
20:36:15 <Sgeo_> I _think_ I've been termed "anorexic" but not "anorexia nervosa"
20:36:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, for plotting those values as a function of problem size
20:36:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, I doubt it can handle that
20:36:34 <alise> cpressey: A Pixley interpreter in asm would be fun.
20:36:36 * Sgeo_ is fully aware that he's thin. I am under no impression that I am overweight
20:36:40 <alise> Sgeo_: you're not anorexic
20:36:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Multiline formats are a bit iffy, I'm not sure it can really handle those at all.
20:36:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, so I need to write a simple script to convert it to some format.
20:36:55 * Sgeo_ vaguely wonders if the reverse is possible: Someone who's overweight, but thinks e's thin
20:36:56 <cpressey> alise: that might actually be nicer than C
20:37:01 <alise> anorexia is caused by a distortion of self-perception leading to one believing themselves to be fat and thus starving themselves as a result
20:37:11 <alise> you realise you're too thin, you don't not-eat to avoid being not thin; you're not anorexic.
20:37:17 <alise> cpressey: Yes, but I don't want to deal with x86/Linux asm, *urgh*.
20:37:20 <Hiant> Sgeo_: Self-delusion
20:37:34 <alise> Sgeo_: that's just called an idiot
20:37:52 <alise> hi Hiant, haven't seen you before
20:38:22 <Hiant> I am rather new here.
20:38:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, the default format is to process #-lines as comments, possibly ignore header-looking text with some horrible heuristic, and then for the rest split the lines using any whitespace as the separator; then you can do e.g. 'plot "datafile" using 1:4' to make it plot points where column 1 is X and column 4 is Y.
20:38:32 <alise> perform inscrutable rituals
20:38:39 <alise> cpressey: Ooooooooh, perhaps an x86 OS. ^_^
20:38:40 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorexia_(symptom)
20:38:56 <alise> Sgeo_: you are not anorexic
20:39:09 <Hiant> Been there, done that. I am actually here because I have a thing for esolangs.
20:39:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I need three lines: real, user and sys
20:39:16 <Sgeo_> alise, you are not my doctor
20:39:34 <alise> Sgeo_: anorexia is fucking defined as thinking you're thin and not eating enough because of it
20:39:37 <alise> Sgeo_: anorexia is fucking defined as thinking you're fat and not eating enough because of it
20:39:40 <Mathnerd314> alise: did you forget "talk about everything *besides* esoteric languages"
20:39:43 <Sgeo_> alise, that's anorexia nervosa
20:39:56 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:40:00 <alise> "anorexia" meaning anything else is only used by people who don't actually know what anorexia nervosa is
20:40:06 <alise> I don't care what your fucking GP said.
20:40:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, put it in a "<size>\t<real>\t<user>\t<sys>\n" format, and then plot "datafile" using 1:2 title "real", "datafile" using 1:3 title "user", "datafile" using 1:4 title "sys" -- possibly setting line styles there too.
20:41:03 <Taneb> I'm kinda new to this
20:41:05 <fizzie> (That thing starting with "plot" is a single command, comma separates multiple lines.)
20:41:07 <Sgeo_> Remind me not to turn to alise for medical advice
20:41:20 <alise> Sgeo_: you're being moronic.
20:41:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, can it average several values for same x value?
20:41:45 <Taneb> What would a Hackiki wiki do?
20:41:47 <Vorpal> otherwise I need the script to do that as well
20:42:12 <alise> Sgeo_: actually having known someone anorexic at the unit I find your compliance in the layman's dilution of the term rather disgusting.
20:42:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: It might be easier to do it with a script; there are some smoothing options, but I'm not sure if they include windowed-average.
20:42:48 <Sgeo_> alise, I thought the layman's dilution was referring to "anorexia nervosa" as simply "anorexia"
20:42:49 <cpressey> Taneb: I suppose the idea is we would run interpreters for esolangs directly on it.
20:42:58 <alise> Sgeo_: absolutely not
20:43:05 <alise> Anorexia is anorexia nervosa
20:43:12 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC it basically goes like this: write executable. Run executable. Send over HTTP.
20:43:24 <alise> yes, the translation of anorexia from greek means reduced appetite
20:43:33 <alise> but if your doctor says "you're anorexic"
20:43:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't want to smooth the curve between the data points. Just average the 20 samples for problem size = 10000000 and so on
20:43:38 <alise> he means anorexia nervosa.
20:44:07 <alise> there is no condition "anorexia", the only sense in which it means something else is when referring to a reduced appetite which is NOT a diagnosis, and not something a doctor would tell you you have by using that word
20:44:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh. Well, even so. At least by default you'd just end up with multiple points with the same X value.
20:44:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, wait; it actually does have an option for that.
20:44:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh? What is it?
20:45:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: If you add "unique" in the plot-spec, it will take the average Y-value if there are several points with the identical X-value.
20:45:31 <cpressey> alise: the annoying thing that i immediately hit for a Pixley interpreter is that it has to error somehow, e.g. (car foo)
20:45:48 <Hiant> I actually came here for advice on an esoteric language I have been writing up.
20:45:52 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: I haven't ever tried that option. Sometimes it's a bit picky about the ordering of things within the plot statement.)
20:46:10 <alise> cpressey: jmp aargh
20:46:14 <cpressey> Hiant: ask away. hopefully we all will give you contradictory and useless opinions!
20:46:14 <alise> aargh: hlt; jmp aargh
20:46:26 <alise> (car 'x)? yep, that hangs the system
20:46:28 <Hiant> I put the specs up on esolang (http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/OTOH) and was looking for suggestions.
20:46:35 <alise> cpressey: making it as an OS is a bit stupid because pixley is utterly useless for causing any side-effects :)
20:46:42 <alise> but urgh i don't know the first thing about x86 asm
20:46:46 <alise> or any asm really but i could pick up others easily
20:46:57 <cpressey> alise: oh ha I didn't even realize you proposed *making* it an OS
20:46:58 <alise> Hiant: hey i saw that language yesterday
20:47:05 <alise> cpressey: well, not an OS, just a bare-metal REPL
20:47:14 <fizzie> ais523: For a while there before they started to add tilting buttons in everything, there was sort-of-a-convention that buttons 6/7 are "back" and "forward" in a browser. I guess they've now relocated back/fwd into 8/9 then.
20:47:15 <alise> cpressey: you could use real memory as the heap
20:47:25 <alise> Hiant: DCC CHAT? why?
20:47:36 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:47:36 <Hiant> sorry, mouse error
20:47:57 <Hiant> Anyways, yes. I only added the specs recently.
20:47:57 <ais523> normally typos pick on me, seeing as I'm first in alphabetical order
20:48:03 <alise> well i fixed an orthographic error on your page!
20:48:22 <ais523> fizzie: I haven't used a mouse with those buttons for a while, so I don't know what they map to
20:48:29 <alise> Hiant: "BrainFuck" -> "brainfuck"
20:48:29 -!- wareya has joined.
20:48:53 <alise> Brainfuck is acceptable at the start of a line, brainfuck after that, but never "BrainFuck" >:)
20:49:19 <ais523> it's a word that uses sentence case
20:49:25 * alise fixes a stupidity on [[brainfuck]] while e's at it
20:49:32 <ais523> Sgeo_: capital * at the start of a sentence, you still have to obey the rules of standard English language
20:49:35 <alise> "The brainfuck language is Turing-complete" -> "Brainfuck is Turing-complete"
20:49:43 <Hiant> Ah, that is a very good point. I should stop being so hasty when writing wikis.
20:50:04 <alise> Hiant: it's very nitpicky, don't worry :-P
20:50:13 <alise> At least you didn't say "Brainf***"
20:50:25 <fizzie> ais523: On this particular mouse and Ubuntu combination, the back/forward thumb-buttons in the side nowadays do go to 8/9. (And at least Firefox interprets those as back/forward.)
20:50:27 <alise> Hiant: the language is more interesting than the average person's first language by far
20:50:48 <alise> although it's not particularly well-specified; especially ,
20:50:50 <alise> what's "stack-like"?
20:50:57 <alise> well, actually, only , is badly-specified
20:51:06 <alise> although you also don't specify what the memory pointer is exactly
20:51:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: because the name is brainfuck
20:51:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: for much the same reason as you don't capitalise ais523
20:52:04 <Hiant> Ah, that has to do with the brainfuck input. It only outputs one character at a time for every consecutive call after the first.
20:52:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: see the contents of http://aminet.net/dev/lang/brainfuck-2.lha
20:52:21 -!- Taneb has left (?).
20:52:27 <alise> Hiant: "Input one byte", then
20:52:36 <alise> (byte is probably what you want, not ASCII character)
20:52:40 <alise> (octet if you really want to be precise)
20:52:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: brainfuck is an Amiga problem
20:52:57 <alise> and I might just copy ais523's interrobang-filter if you don't stop abusing them
20:53:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: LHA, aka what every single damn thing on the Amiga uses
20:53:14 <ais523> gah, my filter apparently doesn't actually work
20:53:17 <alise> and also what a lot of Japan uses
20:53:27 <Hiant> I apologize, I am rather bad at using the proper compsci terms.
20:53:35 <alise> Hiant: it's not very compsci :)
20:53:37 <alise> ascii character is fine
20:53:43 <alise> just, technically, it means you can't input a byte greater than 127
20:53:45 <alise> which is probably not what you want
20:53:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you abuse them in a really irritating way
20:53:53 <ais523> overpunctuating is really annoying
20:54:07 <ais523> and an interrobang is effectively inherently overpunctuating
20:54:11 <alise> even ?! is less irritating than the interrobang
20:54:13 * Sgeo_ wonders if ais523 finds this punctuation acceptable.
20:54:17 <alise> the interrobang /looks/ irritating
20:54:17 <fizzie> ⁑****fuck would be another way to do "uppercase *", but, well.
20:54:52 <Hiant> Anyways, I was hoping for suggestions. Optimization, useless obscuration, ect.
20:54:54 <alise> "As the head of an advertising agency, Speckter believed that advertisements would look better if copywriters conveyed surprised rhetorical questions using a single mark."
20:55:02 -!- augur has joined.
20:55:02 <alise> so the interrobang is actually only for rhetorical qusetions
20:55:10 <alise> Hiant: i'll look at the actual language now :P
20:55:14 <ais523> for /surprised/ rhetorical questions
20:55:17 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I shall try to use a less offensive punctuation mark, then.
20:55:39 <alise> Hiant: "9/4/10" this is ambiguous, I suggest using 2010-04-09 or 09-04 depending on which you eman
20:55:47 <Sgeo_> Everyone really hates PSOX‽
20:55:51 <alise> I swear I'll look at the language now!
20:56:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, argh, do you know how you get boxes on the lines for the data points?
20:56:15 <Sgeo_> ^^surprised rhetorical enough?
20:56:17 <Vorpal> "set style data linespoints" seemed relevant, but it doesn't
20:56:44 <alise> Hiant: you might want to mention what function Examples -> Mathematical Functions calculates.
20:56:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: Try putting "with linespoints" after the "using 1:2" part in the plot command.
20:56:58 <alise> This program functions, but is too large to be comfortably posted here.
20:57:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, the smoothing stuff seems to work though
20:57:32 <Hiant> alise: Sorry, hasty editing destroyed the lower half of the page.
20:57:42 <ais523> alise: 2010-09-04 seems more likely given the current date
20:57:49 <alise> ais523: indeed, i wasn't thinking too hard
20:57:53 <ais523> Hiant: you can recover previous versions from the history
20:57:57 <alise> Hiant: we don't really mind how long pages are; just put a linebreak after every, say, 80 characters
20:58:07 <Sgeo_> I have decided that I no longer love Factor
20:58:11 <Sgeo_> OTOH is my new love
20:58:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hmm, did it just not do anything, or actually complain? (Also, it might be a side effect of the "unique" flag, the doc for "plot unique" says "The resulting points are then connected by straight line segments.")
20:58:34 <Hiant> Sgeo_: That's quite flattering, why?
20:58:43 <Sgeo_> Hiant, inside joke kindof
20:58:44 <alise> Hiant: he's probably kidding
20:58:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, it did nothing
20:59:08 <alise> Hiant: it's a Sgeo-meme, which is a word meaning "something that only one person thinks is a hilarious meme"
20:59:10 <ais523> Hiant: let's just say, he was in love with Smalltalk last time I was in here
20:59:16 <Vorpal> ah yes, removing unique changes it...
20:59:20 <alise> arguably, Sgeo-meme is a rank-2 Sgeo-memeoid
20:59:25 <alise> in that only me and ais523 find it amusing
20:59:28 <alise> *"Sgeo-meme" itself
21:00:11 <alise> a rank-1 Sgeo-memoid is a Sgeo-meme
21:00:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, it seems to be an architectural limitation. If you use a smoothing option, it handles the plotting as if it were a function, and a function can't be plotted with "linespoints" (because it has no particular points; it's just sampled at suitable intervals).
21:00:19 <Sgeo_> I'm definitely struggling more with Factoid than with Smalltalk
21:00:24 <alise> Hiant: we're usually this crazy
21:00:24 <ais523> alise: some of the Sgeo-memeoids have ascended by now, though
21:00:31 <alise> ais523: such as? PSOX?
21:00:42 <ais523> alise: I was about to not mention that
21:00:47 <alise> PSOX was a Sgeo-meme; "making fun of the Sgeo-meme that is PSOX" is a meme
21:00:49 <ais523> in such a way that everyone knew what I meant anyway
21:00:56 <Hiant> alise: I can believe that.
21:00:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: all Sgeo-memes
21:01:07 <alise> such as "<Sgeo> X is my new love"
21:01:11 <alise> as has just been discussed
21:01:18 <cpressey> hey, I just had an idea for a *good* use for the interrobang: in a message-passing language, ! could send a message asynchronously, ? could wait for a message, and ‽ could combine them for synchronous communication
21:01:30 <alise> A rank 0 Sgeo-memeoid is also known as "unfunny"
21:01:49 <Sgeo_> Another Sgeo-meme: Saying that some random mentioned thing should be an esolang
21:01:51 <ais523> that would just imply a meme that nobody used
21:02:06 <cpressey> The Sgeo-meme meme is pretty rank, all right
21:02:08 <ais523> I suspect there's at least one undiscovered meme that's really funy
21:02:34 <alise> ais523: well, no, because it's not a meme yet
21:02:41 <alise> if nobody's thought of it
21:02:43 * Sgeo_ sees $$$ in all the recognition
21:02:47 <Hiant> alise: Anyways, is a to-ruby compiler acceptable or no?
21:02:47 <lament> Sgeo-memes should be an esolang
21:02:53 <ais523> alise: well, it's a meme for exactly 0 people, then
21:02:57 <ais523> thus a rank-0 Sgeo-memoid
21:03:02 <alise> Hiant: put it on sprunge.us
21:03:09 <alise> and link it in an external links section
21:03:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: I can't immediately think of a workaround; maybe just average those points in your format-converting script (or a second step). You could plot as lines, and then plot untitled points on top of it, but the points would need the averaged values from somewhere.
21:03:12 <alise> but do include the hello world program
21:03:20 <alise> ais523: not everything is a meme by default!
21:03:38 -!- benuphoenix has joined.
21:03:52 <ais523> alise: but undiscovered memes are, by definition
21:04:00 <alise> ais523: there are none
21:04:04 <alise> because those aren't memes
21:04:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed I think I will average them in advance
21:04:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Implement Belabour
21:05:35 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:05:40 <Sgeo_> FWIW, Sgeo-memes is now a rank 3 or greater Sgeo-memoid
21:05:54 <cpressey> lament: Its instructions should consist entirely of identifying things which should be esolangs
21:06:05 <alise> cpressey: I'm wondering about Pixley in asm now...
21:06:16 <alise> Sgeo_: why? who else finds it amusing? you?
21:06:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, does awk do floats?
21:06:27 <alise> it doesn't count unless you regularly mention it, though
21:06:31 <alise> or at least, as regularly as is feasible
21:06:40 <Sgeo_> I've never heard it mentioned before, tbh
21:06:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, I seem to recall it does, by default.
21:06:57 <Sgeo_> Shall I mention it as regularly as I used to mention PSOX?
21:07:00 <fizzie> `run echo 1 | awk '{print $1/2;}'
21:07:03 -!- SimonRC has joined.
21:07:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: http://catseye.tc/cpressey/louie.html#Belabour
21:07:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, then this should be trivial. This is a perfect job for awk
21:07:36 <alise> `run wget http://github.com/darius/awklisp/blob/master/awklisp
21:07:48 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: curl: command not found
21:07:51 <alise> `cat http://github.com/darius/awklisp/blob/master/awklisp
21:07:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, it will be when I remember the array syntax
21:07:59 <alise> how do you get files on to HackEgo?
21:08:13 <HackEgo> wget: missing URL \ Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]... \ \ Try `wget --help' for more options.
21:08:35 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:08:48 <alise> `fetch http://github.com/darius/awklisp/blob/master/awklisp
21:08:50 <HackEgo> 2010-09-06 20:08:27 URL:http://github.com/darius/awklisp/blob/master/awklisp [86401/86401] -> "awklisp" [1]
21:08:52 <alise> Vorpal: wget didn't work before
21:09:29 <alise> `run echo '(+ 2 2)' | awk awklisp
21:09:35 <alise> `run echo '(display (+ 2 2))' | awk awklisp
21:09:44 <alise> `run echo '(write (+ 2 2))' | awk awklisp
21:09:49 <alise> `run echo '(write (+ 2 2))' | awk awklisp 2>&1
21:10:02 <alise> `run awk --version 2>&1
21:10:03 <cpressey> whhh you can install stuff on HackEgo? that's pretty cool
21:10:04 <HackEgo> awk: not an option: --version
21:10:11 <alise> this is nawk, isn't it?
21:10:16 <fizzie> Suddenly I was tempted to `fetch a command-line pastebin client. Just think. you could paste stuff to IRC by sending.. an IRC message.. on-channel.. uh, never mind.
21:10:26 <alise> i guess darius bacon wouldn't write gnu-specific code. probably
21:10:47 <alise> fizzie: But you could give it a URL with a lot of text, and it'd put it on a pastebin for you!
21:11:23 <alise> `run echo '(write T)' | awk awklisp
21:12:01 <alise> `fetch http://github.com/darius/awklisp/raw/master/awklisp
21:12:06 <HackEgo> 2010-09-06 20:11:43 URL:http://github.com/darius/awklisp/raw/master/awklisp [15101/15101] -> "awklisp" [1]
21:12:07 <alise> `run echo '(write (+ 2 2))' | awk awklisp
21:12:55 <alise> grr, it outputs nothing here too
21:13:08 <alise> print_expr(eval(expr))
21:13:32 <fizzie> `run echo '(write T)' | ./awklisp 2>&1
21:13:34 <HackEgo> ERROR: Unbound variable: T
21:13:41 <fizzie> (I chmod +x'd awklisp in a query for that.)
21:13:49 <alise> `run echo "(write 't)" | ./awklisp 2>&1
21:13:52 <alise> cpressey: Darius Bacon
21:14:01 <alise> `run echo "(* 2 2 2)" | ./awklisp 2>&1
21:14:02 <HackEgo> ERROR: Wrong number of arguments to
21:14:07 <alise> `run echo "(* 2 2)" | ./awklisp 2>&1
21:14:09 <cpressey> i meant, was there something that precipitated teaching it to HackEgo?
21:14:16 <alise> cpressey: why not?
21:14:24 <Sgeo_> Why doesn't HackEgo understand Factor?
21:14:31 <alise> cpressey: it has its own gc, too
21:14:34 <alise> `run echo "(cons 1 2)" | ./awklisp 2>&1
21:14:43 <fizzie> Sgeo_: Just stick an awkFactor in there, then it does.
21:14:58 <cpressey> awk. the implementation language of champions.
21:15:06 <alise> `fetch http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:15:21 <Sgeo_> I guess I should learn about awk
21:15:29 <cpressey> core factor isn't too complex, is it?
21:15:37 <alise> cpressey: this thing runs python iirc
21:15:49 <alise> cpressey: why's it crazy?
21:15:57 <Sgeo_> Does "core factor" even exist as such?
21:16:07 <Sgeo_> The implementation and the language are so intertwined...
21:16:12 * alise twiddles thumbs wrt fetch
21:16:16 <alise> Sgeo_: no they're not (really)
21:16:28 <cpressey> awk is a ptreoxgtrparmomcicnegssor!
21:16:29 <alise> the language just has no spec outside the documentation, which is comprehensive and happens to include code
21:16:41 <alise> cpressey: there's an nroff -man/-ms clone in awk, and an assembler
21:16:44 <alise> blame Henry Spencer
21:17:06 <fizzie> `run echo `python --version 2>&1` -- `perl --version | head -n 2 | cut -c -20`
21:17:08 <HackEgo> Python 2.5.5 -- This is perl, v5.10.
21:17:20 <alise> Python 2.55 = Perl 5.10.
21:17:32 -!- Hiant has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]).
21:17:38 <fizzie> So one Perl is almost twice a Python.
21:18:00 <Sgeo_> I'm pretty sure there's command-line Factor
21:18:12 <Sgeo_> So it can't be that difficult to just install it
21:18:26 <alise> I am installing it
21:18:32 <alise> HackEgo is fetching it, or at least should be
21:18:37 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20027 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:18:44 <alise> I dunno if it's done yet, though
21:18:50 <cpressey> I could be installing my esoterps on HackEgo, then, since most of 'em are perl and python and haskell
21:18:52 <alise> `run ls -l factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:18:54 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 10485760 Sep 6 20:18 factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:18:58 <alise> `run ls -l factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:19:00 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 10485760 Sep 6 20:18 factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:19:04 <alise> `run tar xf factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:19:08 <Sgeo_> </actually-thinking-about-something-other-than-himself>
21:19:15 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20252 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:19:26 * alise waits for it to unpack
21:19:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: stop it
21:19:30 <alise> you're clogging it up
21:19:33 <alise> read the filesystem instead
21:19:38 <fizzie> 10485760 is suspiciously ten-megabytey.
21:19:39 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:19:44 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20360 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:19:58 <alise> `run rm factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:20:04 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20520 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:20:11 <alise> `run rm factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:20:13 <Sgeo_> Was about to scream at you
21:20:18 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20648 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:20:21 <alise> Sgeo_: you have issues
21:20:28 <alise> `run wget http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz 2>&1
21:20:31 <HackEgo> --2010-09-06 20:20:08-- http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2010-09-06 20:20:08 ERROR 403: Forbidden. \
21:20:52 <alise> fizzie: how do you set the user agent in wget; do you know?
21:20:54 <Sgeo_> Maybe we should mention this in #concatenative ?
21:21:07 <Sgeo_> Also, why was it connecting to 127.0.0.1 ?
21:21:08 <alise> `run wget -U mogul http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz 2>&1
21:21:10 <HackEgo> --2010-09-06 20:20:47-- http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2010-09-06 20:20:47 ERROR 403: Forbidden. \
21:21:16 <alise> it only lets you talk to the outside with fetch
21:21:23 <alise> `fetch http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:21:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, mm this works nicely
21:21:55 <alise> cpressey: what's the CPU arch you like?
21:21:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, now just to figure out how to set output to svg to file
21:22:02 <Vorpal> rather than screen on window
21:22:07 <alise> Sgeo_: but you put a space before your ?, which angers me. :|
21:22:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: "set term svg" followed by "set output "filename"".
21:22:27 <Sgeo_> alise, bubut.. I put spaces after URIs, why not IP addresses?
21:22:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, yay svg terminal
21:22:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, that sooo must be done
21:22:41 <alise> Sgeo_: no reason to
21:22:44 <alise> just makes you french
21:22:48 <alise> Vorpal: no it doesn't have to be.
21:22:54 <Vorpal> "Options are 'size 600,480 fixed fname 'Arial' fsize 12 butt solid '" <-- nasty defaults
21:22:59 <Sgeo_> When I was a kid, I randomly wanted to learn French
21:23:08 <Sgeo_> Had a book, _French for Dummies_
21:23:15 <alise> Vorpal: it's uninteresting
21:23:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or the other way around. There was an official reason why you were supposed to use "set term" either before or after "set output", but I can't rememer which way it was. I *think* it was "set term" first, then "set output" so that it knows to set the output file to binary mode on systems where it makes a difference.
21:23:27 <Vorpal> alise, that's your opinion yes
21:24:21 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: git: command not found
21:24:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:24:50 <alise> `run tar xf factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:24:59 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.21125 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:25:03 <alise> `run tar xf factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz 2>&1
21:25:07 <alise> oh, i guess it has a file size limit?
21:25:08 <HackEgo> /bin/tar: factor/factor.image: Wrote only 1024 of 10240 bytes \ \ gzip: stdin: unexpected end of file \ /bin/tar: Unexpected EOF in archive \ /bin/tar: factor: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now
21:25:19 <ais523> `run apt-get git-core 2>&1
21:25:21 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - FileExists (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Invalid operation git-core
21:25:28 <ais523> `run apt-get install git-core 2>&1
21:25:30 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - FileExists (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), are you root?
21:25:33 <Sgeo_> FileExists: No such file or directory
21:25:34 <alise> ais523: download would work, but not install
21:25:41 * Sgeo_ fails to comprehend
21:25:41 <alise> ais523: can you download the .deb from apt-get?
21:25:45 <ais523> hmm, I was wondering if /usr was writable, given that it was in a sandbox anyway
21:25:46 <alise> wouldn't work anyway
21:25:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:26:13 <alise> ais523: it's git now, btw
21:26:16 <ais523> `run apt-get -d install git-core 2>&1
21:26:18 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - FileExists (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), are you root?
21:26:28 <ais523> need to be root even to just grab the package, for some reason
21:26:30 <alise> `fetch http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/git/git_1.7.1-1.1_amd64.deb
21:26:36 <alise> ais523: its network is retarded anyway
21:26:39 <alise> retarded as in ...
21:26:41 <HackEgo> 2010-09-06 20:26:19 URL:http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/git/git_1.7.1-1.1_amd64.deb [6270854/6270854] -> "git_1.7.1-1.1_amd64.deb" [1]
21:26:49 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ git_1.7.1-1.1_amd64.deb \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.21421 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:26:52 <alise> `rm factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:26:56 <fizzie> ais523: Also it's missing all the /etc/apt/ and /var/lib/dpkg files, it looks like.
21:26:59 <alise> ais523: can you dpkg -i to a local directory?
21:27:08 <Sgeo_> Gregor, get in here
21:27:20 <Sgeo_> Make the outside not be all O, we're 127.0.0.1y
21:27:28 <alise> that's intentional.
21:27:31 <alise> doing otherwise would be suicide
21:27:37 <Vorpal> alise, just compile the binaries and upload then as tar.gz or such?
21:27:43 <alise> Gregor: I'm just gonna install git to a local directory so I can fetch more files than your limited `fetch, kay
21:27:47 <alise> (the tarball is bigger)
21:27:48 <cpressey> varmince! dere ruddig ewey. git deb!
21:27:56 <Vorpal> extracting them locally preparing an archive
21:27:59 <alise> Vorpal: .deb /is/ an ... ar, I think
21:28:04 <Gregor> alise: You won't be able to fetch them, the network access is restricted.
21:28:07 <Vorpal> alise, no it is tar based I think
21:28:09 <alise> Gregor: oh, of course
21:28:10 <fizzie> alise: If you don't need the special installation scripts, you can "dpkg-deb -x file.deb dir/" to extract the files from it.
21:28:19 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor \ git_1.7.1-1.1_amd64.deb \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.21516 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:28:20 <Gregor> The `fetch command is all you get.
21:28:23 <alise> Gregor: can you manually fetch a biggish file?
21:28:38 <Gregor> alise: If "biggish" is under 10MB, sure.
21:28:38 <alise> `rm git_1.7.1-1.1_amd64.deb
21:28:44 <alise> Gregor: It's not quite under 10 MB, I think.
21:28:57 <Gregor> alise: 10MB is the absolute filesize limit right now.
21:28:57 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:28:59 <alise> Gregor: http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:29:01 <fizzie> cpressey: What have you against the 6510! (Okay, okay, he said "arch".)
21:29:01 <Gregor> I could increase that if you give me a reason :P
21:29:03 <alise> You have access to the repo, though.
21:29:07 <cpressey> 6502: essentially all Commodore computers, Atari 2600, ...
21:29:09 <alise> Gregor: because otherwise Sgeo will hyperventilate
21:29:20 <cpressey> fizzie: i don't distinguish usually. i'm naughty that way
21:29:22 <fizzie> alise: Just go and split the file to pieces.
21:29:55 <Gregor> alise: The filesize limit is a ulimit, even if I put a file in that's bigger, you won't be able to use it.
21:29:58 <Sgeo_> 10MB is the filesize limit for downloaded files, or any files?
21:30:07 <Gregor> Well, maybe, depends on how you use it I suppose.
21:30:08 <alise> fizzie: Can tar do multi-part things?
21:30:13 <alise> Gregor: would this work:
21:30:18 <alise> where a+b+c+d > 10 MB
21:30:26 <Gregor> No file is made that's too big there.
21:30:26 <alise> okay, who knows dd?
21:30:31 <fizzie> cpressey: There's a 8502 in my C128; I'm not quite sure why such a drastic change in the number when it's just a 6510 with some pins and (IIRC) relocatable "zero"page.
21:31:06 <Vorpal> alise, everyone knows dd...
21:31:12 <fizzie> alise: There's the tool called "split" that can (gasp!) split files. (Though it has a crummy syntax and strange output file names.)
21:31:13 <alise> I know the basics.
21:31:20 <Sgeo_> Even I know the basics
21:31:22 <alise> fizzie: oh, indeed
21:31:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, crummy is an understatement
21:31:39 <alise> Length: 26717387 (25M) [application/x-tar]
21:31:45 <alise> I wonder if bzipping it would help.
21:31:51 * alise tries, after it's downloaded
21:32:02 <Vorpal> alise, as he said you won't be able to use the file inside there
21:32:12 <Vorpal> file size (blocks, -f) unlimited
21:32:22 * Sgeo_ wonders how much stuff in there is unneeded
21:32:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can't create big files, but you can concatenate things and pipe to tar.
21:32:26 <Sgeo_> We don't really need slides
21:32:28 <alise> Vorpal: Reading comprehension, ooh ooh fail!
21:32:32 <alise> Reading comprehension, youuuu faiil!
21:32:58 <fizzie> Of course if the tarball has any too-big files in it, then it's more of a problem.
21:33:02 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:33:18 <alise> fizzie: I don't think factor.image is that big.
21:33:26 -!- Hiant has joined.
21:33:34 <alise> it's not a terminal
21:33:39 <alise> so xz happily spews the compressed data
21:33:46 <Vorpal> alise, why doesn't it emulate a terminal?
21:34:04 <alise> because it's not a terminal in any sense
21:34:16 <alise> [ehird@dinky tmp]$ xz -9 factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar
21:34:20 * alise 's stupid filter kicks in
21:34:24 <Vorpal> alise, you could split it
21:34:32 <alise> But I'm making things easier first.
21:34:41 <fizzie> gzip: compressed data not written to a terminal. Use -f to force compression.
21:34:41 <fizzie> bzip2: I won't write compressed data to a terminal.
21:34:41 <fizzie> xz: Compressed data not written to a terminal unless `--force' is used.
21:34:47 <fizzie> Heh, they all say the same thing a bit differently.
21:34:48 <Hiant> alise: Well, "Hello World!" is up. I feel like a cheater, but a *ugly* working version is now up.
21:35:04 <fizzie> bzip2's the only one that tries to pretend it's a person, though.
21:35:37 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:35:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about compress?
21:35:43 <fizzie> Which app was the "cowardly refusing to create an empty archive" one? Tar?
21:35:48 <Vorpal> compress: compressed data not written to a terminal. Use -f to force compression.
21:35:52 <Vorpal> that is what compress does
21:35:56 <Vorpal> wait, that looks like gzip?
21:35:59 <cpressey> For extra creepy, bzip2 should refer to itself in the 3rd person. "Write compressed data to a terminal? Naw, bzip2's not down with that."
21:35:59 <fizzie> lzma says the same thing as gzip, too.
21:36:04 <Vorpal> /bin/compress: symbolic link to `gzip'
21:36:18 <Vorpal> lzma: Compressed data cannot be written to a terminal
21:36:29 <Vorpal> lzma that is not the same as gzip
21:36:31 <Sgeo_> Why are we writing compressed data to a terminal?
21:36:52 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, read scrollback, starting with line "<alise> `run xz 2>&1"
21:36:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, *my* lzma says the same thing as gzip.
21:37:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also, on this system: http://p.zem.fi/compress
21:37:38 <alise> fizzie: Why does http://p.zem.fi/test redirect to http://www.google.com/yyy?
21:37:40 <alise> WE MAY NEVER KNOW.
21:37:50 <alise> I thought for a single happy second that you might be using Google to somehow host the pastes.
21:37:55 <alise> [ehird@dinky tmp]$ xz -9 --verbose factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar
21:37:56 <alise> factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar (1/1)
21:37:56 <alise> 52.3 % 7.0 MiB / 80.0 MiB = 0.088 708 KiB/s 1:55 1 min 50 s
21:37:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, installing ncompress atm
21:37:59 <fizzie> alise: I'm afraid the real reason is too boring, and will therefore not say it.
21:38:16 <alise> cpressey: what DA2 level are you on?
21:38:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, compress seems from ncompress doesn't say anything
21:38:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, and it writes it to terminal
21:38:44 <fizzie> ncompress-compress is not a coward; ncompress-compress is not afraid of your terminals.
21:38:56 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should write PSOX2 in Factor
21:39:16 <Sgeo_> Or just that thing that was suggested instead for communication between ... thingies
21:39:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, I want to know the boring reason
21:39:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably testing?
21:39:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, also, where can I get the software for that pastebin?
21:39:52 <alise> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird users 16M Sep 6 12:33 factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.xz
21:39:57 -!- wareya has joined.
21:39:59 <alise> 25M gzipped to 16M lzma'd
21:40:01 <alise> we're talking sweet
21:40:04 <alise> Vorpal: no, it was twice as slow.
21:40:09 <Vorpal> alise, it helps with 2%-3%
21:40:13 <alise> and i'm not wasting six minutes of my life waiting for that
21:40:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: You got it in one; I was testing the tinyurl link-shortener. And the code's at http://github.com/fis/zpaste/ -- not very tested, not very polished at all.
21:40:25 <Vorpal> alise, 6 minutes? are you on a low power netbook?
21:40:42 <alise> i'm just running a ton of other stuff and don't have the fastest raw CPU speed
21:40:44 <Vorpal> alise, since 6 minutes is about the time xz -9 -e 700mb.iso took on my thinkpad
21:40:52 <alise> this only matters when doing data compression.
21:40:59 <alise> (video playback is fine)
21:41:05 <alise> this only matters when doing data compression
21:41:18 <Vorpal> alise, well sure, I'm just laughing at your low end system :P
21:41:32 <alise> Vorpal: that does all the things i want it to that yours doesn't.
21:41:51 <Vorpal> alise, Which would presumably involve size and weight?
21:41:52 <alise> such as: have a much, much longer battery life. be able to be carried by my weakling arms without even noticing.
21:41:55 <alise> having a display usable in daylight.
21:42:06 <alise> so really i don't give a shit about the number of hz your computer is
21:42:09 <Vorpal> alise, but one not usable indoors
21:42:10 <alise> hey, mine's greener. do i get points for that?
21:42:13 <alise> Vorpal: yes, it is.
21:42:22 <alise> I have never once noticed a single reflection and I have excellent eyesight.
21:42:24 -!- Hiant has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]).
21:42:28 <alise> even on dark images
21:42:33 <Vorpal> alise, and mine is blacker, I should get the same number of points for that as you do for your greenness
21:42:45 <alise> i think you should shut up now
21:43:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, I was hoping for a static directory with client program
21:43:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah *.cgi is pretty useless to me
21:43:39 <Vorpal> since I don't use such a setup
21:43:41 <alise> "Because servers are EVIL!"
21:43:52 <alise> I don't think fizzie writes software to be useful for you.
21:43:54 <Vorpal> alise, no "because that thing is setup for fast-cgi"
21:43:56 <cpressey> alise: I am giving it a break on stage 29
21:44:05 <alise> cpressey: psht, 66 represent
21:44:23 <alise> fizzie: what's /space?
21:44:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you can hack it if you want. But really, it's not meant to be useful for anyone, a friend of mine just bugged me to put it online.
21:44:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:44:44 <fizzie> alise: An external HD.
21:44:54 <fizzie> (My web server's a laptop.)
21:44:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, README.md? Wtf is .md?
21:44:57 <alise> fizzie: How boring!
21:45:12 <alise> fizzie: I wonder if having /foo be owned by non-root is considered bad practice.
21:45:17 <alise> (Probably, I'd guess.)
21:46:02 <fizzie> alise: Probably, though I think /space has a rather messy ownership. I think the rootmost /space is owned by root:momus and has the modes drwxr-s---.
21:46:07 <alise> `fetch http://filebin.ca/mswrn/xaa
21:46:28 <HackEgo> 2010-09-06 20:46:05 URL:http://filebin.ca/mswrn/xaa [8255382/8255382] -> "xaa" [1]
21:46:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some paths in the scripts refer to the path /space.
21:47:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, a suid directory?
21:47:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, Kurzweil actually said that the brain could be emulated in a million lines of codE?
21:47:33 <fizzie> sgid, so that all files get the correct group easier.
21:47:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it probably can, plus a huge data file
21:47:53 <Vorpal> well yes sgid obviously
21:47:59 <alise> a million lines of code to emulate a neuron (perhaps with some approximation that can be corrected for by manual correction values)
21:48:03 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:48:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: plus a gigantic data file, a scan of all the brain's neurons
21:48:12 <alise> plus manual correction values if necessary
21:48:15 <fizzie> *Any*way, I couldn't quite decide between markdown, textile and org-mode for the README; went with Markdown for no particular reasons.
21:48:17 -!- SimonRC has joined.
21:48:18 <alise> we can emulate e.g. a rat neuron easily
21:48:22 <alise> a million lines of code should be enough
21:48:25 <alise> but it'll be VERY slow
21:48:28 <alise> and a total neuron scan sounds hard.
21:48:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you can emulate a rat neuron with $5 of equip from radio shack
21:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes, but there's more to the brain than just neurons interacting.
21:49:17 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: A million lines of code for any programming language implementation you want, and then a "data file" containing brain-scans and a brain implementation in that language.
21:49:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: and it doesn't take a million lines to implement a neuron
21:49:29 <alise> so you have the rest free.
21:49:36 <Sgeo_> How about modeling all the molecules?
21:49:36 <alise> `fetch http://filebin.ca/syfpua/xab
21:49:47 <alise> ...anyway, if we merely mean something as intelligent as a human,
21:49:55 <HackEgo> 2010-09-06 20:49:32 URL:http://filebin.ca/syfpua/xab [8255382/8255382] -> "xab" [1]
21:49:56 <alise> then given a sufficiently expressive language (probably highly reflective)
21:49:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, so far away from practical you can't see it with a telescope
21:50:00 <oklopol> alise: you do realize a neuron contains a network about as complicated as the brain?
21:50:02 <alise> maybe a million lines of code would do
21:50:13 <alise> oklopol: yes, well.
21:50:17 <oklopol> actually basically the nucleus of each cell does
21:50:17 <alise> oklopol: nobody said it had to be practical
21:50:18 <Sgeo_> oklopol, /me knows little about neuroscience
21:50:31 <oklopol> although naturally most of it is probably not used for computation
21:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, a) Kurzweil's argument was based on information content of DNA, so he's still nuts.
21:51:05 * Sgeo_ wants Kurzweil to be right
21:51:10 <alise> `run cat xaa xab | unxz | tar xf /dev/stdin
21:51:10 <Sgeo_> That doesn't make him right, ofc
21:51:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah, RNA messes all that up
21:51:19 <alise> distant_figure: wow, how did we summon you
21:51:25 <alise> oh, have you been in here all the time
21:51:27 <alise> <HackEgo> No output.
21:51:30 <alise> Gregor I BROKE IT AGAIN
21:51:32 <Phantom_Hoover> He obviously doesn't even understand DNA in the slightest.
21:51:32 <distant_figure> 22:55 #esoteric: < alise> distant_figure: wow, how did we summon you
21:51:44 <distant_figure> 21:23 #esoteric: < alise> where is Hiato anyway? he's fun
21:51:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: he responded to that rebuttal. iirc.
21:51:46 <alise> saying he was misquoted
21:52:02 <oklopol> Sgeo_: that's about all i know, and even that may not be completely true, all i'm saying is we don't know anything about even the small parts, my uncle does white cell research, so i've heard about a kilobyte about this stuff.
21:52:08 * alise looks for the link
21:52:14 <alise> http://www.kurzweilai.net/ray-kurzweil-responds-to-ray-kurzweil-does-not-understand-the-brain
21:52:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.kurzweilai.net/ray-kurzweil-responds-to-ray-kurzweil-does-not-understand-the-brain
21:52:24 <oklopol> so it's not *necessarily* true that you can write a computer program to simulate a neuron
21:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, if his argument is anywhere near "DNA hasn't much in it" it's basically unrecoverable.
21:52:50 <fizzie> oklopol: Bah, just put f(n) = 2/(1+exp(-2*n))-1 in there, that's computationally good enough a neuron!
21:53:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, why that specific function?
21:53:24 <alise> cpressey: a fun lisp implementation technique is have car and cdr be arrays
21:53:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, but anyway, define "simulate a neuron" the way you mean it.
21:53:30 <alise> and a cons cell is an index in those arrays
21:53:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's "tansig" from MATLAB's neural networking toolbox; supposedly it's the same as tanh.
21:53:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i meant nothing.
21:53:48 <alise> i was being vague on purpose
21:53:49 <Gregor> alise: I am still yet to figure out how it breaks :P
21:53:51 <alise> as a rogue sort of approximation
21:53:54 <alise> Gregor: well, restart it :P
21:53:56 <oklopol> fizzie: did you think someone would get the reference?
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21:54:09 <alise> Gregor: I think maybe tar tried to read /dev/stdin which was bigger than 10 MB and something blew up? Not that that makes any sense.
21:54:10 <fizzie> oklopol: I just wanted something math-looking, you know.
21:54:21 <cpressey> oh no the conversation has turned to rat neurons
21:54:28 <alise> car[my_id] = the_car; cdr[my_id] = the_cdr;
21:54:31 <Gregor> alise: I don't suppose you actually have a test case that will reliably break it?
21:54:34 <alise> id car(id x) { return car[x]; }
21:54:40 <alise> id car(id x) { return cdr[x]; }
21:54:43 <alise> with less-conflicting names
21:54:46 <alise> Gregor: let's see if I don't!
21:54:57 <alise> `run (cat xaa xab | unxz | tar xf /dev/stdin) 2>&1
21:54:59 <HackEgo> /bin/tar: /dev/stdin: Cannot open: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now \ /bin/cat: write error: Broken pipe
21:55:00 <fizzie> Anyway, it's a nice neuron; it maps the whole R into [-1, 1].
21:55:06 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.22477 \ wunderbar_emporium \ xaa \ xab
21:55:09 <alise> Gregor: No! I do not!
21:55:17 <oklopol> "<fizzie> oklopol: I just wanted something math-looking, you know." <<< but you used a neuralism related function just in case someone asks?
21:55:20 <Gregor> Rather than tar xf /dev/stdin
21:55:22 <alise> Gregor: I think it's an error in the bot.
21:55:25 <alise> Also, that works? Fuuuck GNU.
21:55:30 <alise> `run (cat xaa xab | unxz | tar xf -) 2>&1
21:55:32 <Vorpal> alise, um that isn't gnu
21:55:36 <alise> Gregor: An error in the IRC code, that is.
21:55:37 <Vorpal> alise, that is POSIX afaik
21:55:41 <HackEgo> /bin/tar: factor/factor.image: Wrote only 1024 of 10240 bytes \ /bin/tar: factor/factor.image: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/authors.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/tags.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar:
21:55:41 <fizzie> oklopol: Right. Got to cover all bases.
21:55:43 <alise> Vorpal: Not supporting /dev/stdin is GNU.
21:55:54 <alise> I don't particularly care if POSIX legalised stupidity after-the-fact.
21:56:04 <oklopol> FireFly: you're an awesome person
21:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "The amount of information in the genome (after lossless compression, which is feasible because of the massive redundancy in the genome) is about 50 million bytes (down from 800 million bytes in the uncompressed genome). It is true that the information in the genome goes through a complex route to create a brain, but the information in the genome constrains the amount of information in the brain prior to the
21:56:05 <Gregor> alise: That's pretty confusing X-D
21:56:06 <Vorpal> alise, um, I meant - is the standard way for tar
21:56:13 <oklopol> FireFly: correction, you're not awesome at all
21:56:20 <oklopol> fizzie: you're an awesome person
21:56:20 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think POSIX even mentions /dev/stdin in the context of tar
21:56:23 <alise> <HackEgo> /bin/tar: factor/factor.image: Wrote only 1024 of 10240 bytes \ /bin/tar: factor/factor.image: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/authors.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/tags.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar:
21:56:25 <FireFly> I guess I-ve had my seconds of awesomeness
21:56:28 <alise> Gregor: maybe ulimits are stopping it writing factor.image?
21:56:34 <Vorpal> alise, while I'm pretty sure it mentions - should work. Like it does for cat and so on
21:56:43 <fizzie> (It also has probably no recognizable similarity to how a real neuron behaves, which I believe is a lot more thresholdy; but I wouldn't know about that, I'm not a brain guy. We have a separate department full of brain guys.)
21:56:45 <Gregor> alise: Possibly, but I'm not sure why since it didn't tell me X-D
21:56:56 <alise> `run (cat xaa xab | unxz | tar --exclude=factor/factor.image xf -) 2>&1
21:56:59 <HackEgo> /bin/tar: You must specify one of the `-Acdtrux' or `--test-label' options \ Try `/bin/tar --help' or `/bin/tar --usage' for more information. \ /bin/cat: write error: Broken pipe
21:57:07 <alise> `run (cat xaa xab | unxz | tar xf - --exclude=factor/factor.image) 2>&1
21:57:17 <HackEgo> /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/authors.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/tags.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/pl0-tests.factor: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/summary.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or
21:57:22 <alise> Gregor: WHAAAT ;__;
21:57:36 <alise> `run rm -rf factor
21:57:56 <alise> it would tell Gregor
21:58:02 <oklopol> fizzie: are the brain people smart?
21:59:34 <oklopol> well you know the brain dudes
21:59:45 <fizzie> oklopol: They must be at least smarter than me, because I don't really understand them at all. I went to two-three lectures of one brain course, and it was just unfamiliar sequences of letters.
22:00:18 <oklopol> we do neuropsychology or whateverlogy here too, a lot, afaik
22:00:20 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:00:44 <oklopol> but i don't think they have any interesting courses on it, based on the fact i haven't taken any
22:00:50 <Sgeo_> Everything's ok, thanks for asking
22:00:53 <oklopol> why would you take brain lectures?
22:01:11 <Gregor> alise: Idonno, that's all very wtf X-D
22:01:16 <oklopol> Sgeo_: good, was getting worried back there
22:01:30 <Vorpal> alise, why do you want factor in hackego?
22:01:33 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: brains are largely environment
22:01:53 <Vorpal> alise, just write a patch to add it to egobot instead?
22:02:02 <Phantom_Hoover> This is my problem with the people who say it can be emulated that easily.
22:02:12 <alise> Vorpal: because this is easier
22:02:23 <fizzie> oklopol: A friend dragged me there. There was a single brain lecture by a computer (well, information) guy on the course, that was amusing and understandable, but not very interesting.
22:02:25 <alise> <Sgeo_> Everything's ok, thanks for asking ;; what?
22:02:58 <Sgeo_> alise, my joining with N1 usually means that my computer's acting weird
22:03:07 <Sgeo_> In thsis case, I just want to watch Futurama
22:03:19 <oklopol> my first thought when i saw N1
22:04:14 <oklopol> fizzie: we have a fun course in tilings starting tomorrow, am i friend enough to be able to drag you there?
22:04:34 <oklopol> i would probably need twice the friend points since it's a bit of a commute...
22:04:34 <fizzie> oklopol: The physical distance might be a bit much.
22:05:11 <cpressey> alise: I wil try to wrap my head around car & cdr as arrays. I will fail.
22:05:20 -!- Zuu has joined.
22:05:20 <alise> cpressey: Okay, it's simple.
22:05:23 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: as interesting as Sgeo_, the suicidal futurophile?
22:05:26 <alise> cpressey: Here's cons:
22:05:30 <cpressey> alise: you don't have to explain
22:05:37 <alise> cpressey: no, it'll be trivial once you get it
22:06:18 <oklopol> how can a car be an array?!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?
22:06:50 <fizzie> oklopol: We have a "learning from multiple sources" course starting on Thu; I keep misthinking it as "multiple sorcerers". (It's also arranged by a guy with a reputation for making courses take way too much work/time/effort/etc. I'm not selling this very well, I guess.)
22:07:01 <alise> ais523: that's not what i mean at all
22:07:04 <alise> and cpressey knows this
22:07:10 <alise> i'm talking about implementation
22:07:26 <oklopol> fizzie: i basically get an erection from having to do tons of work.
22:08:32 <oklopol> i do have a ridiculously small amount of courses atm
22:08:44 <cpressey> Gregor: does "Quarp" mean something?
22:09:14 <fizzie> "Learning from multiple sources denotes the problem of jointly learning from a set of (partially) related learning problems / views / tasks. This general concept underlies several subfields receiving increasing interest from the machine learning community, which differ in terms of the assumptions made about the dependency structure between learning problems."
22:09:21 <fizzie> "During the course, we will cover a number of different learning tasks for integrating multiple sources and go through recent advances in the field. Examples of topics covered by the course include data fusion, transfer learning, multitask learning, multiview learning, and learning under covariate shift."
22:09:38 <fizzie> I'm afraid it might be insufficiently mathy for you, though.
22:11:00 <fizzie> I have a total of two (2) courses this autumn; then I'm officially out of courses, since you only need 60 course credits worth of theoretical stuff for the phd. Though I guess they'd still let me participate if I really wanted.
22:11:35 <Quadrescence> Phantom_Hoover: what the only thing i posted was to my ``blog''
22:11:43 <alise> cpressey: http://pastie.org/1142342.txt?key=dsc3dhyhd7k6ww4npr2pda
22:12:06 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Quadrescence, um... another ridiculous post? ;; ??
22:12:35 <oklopol> i'm on four courses now, and one semicourse, one more in the second period
22:13:00 <alise> cpressey: see how helpful I am?
22:13:04 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: because this is easier <-- um, in theory yes, but doesn't seem so in practise
22:13:13 <alise> i think ichbins does too, not sure
22:13:16 <oklopol> but i'm hoping to get the easy parts of my thesis done in the first period
22:13:57 <fizzie> alise: Ha, that thing reminds me of 16-bit-cell 6502 forths; their stacks tend to put high and low bytes to different blocks, because then you just need to increment/decrement a stack pointer value by one, rather than two.
22:14:23 <oklopol> so i'm trying to take as few as possible
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22:15:55 <fizzie> Which thesis was this. I mean, did you already graduate once? Can't quite recall.
22:17:03 <alise> GO BACK ON EVIL ESCAPE KEY
22:17:45 <fizzie> Hey, if you put a dash after esc, it's an esc-ape.
22:19:20 <alise> http://mamememo.blogspot.com/2010/09/qlobe.html
22:19:24 <alise> rotating iterated quine globe
22:19:31 <alise> for any iterations from 1 to 360
22:21:41 <oklopol> fizzie: i have a BS now, or would if i returned the thing
22:22:02 <oklopol> (i already know the grade etc, i'm just too lazy to do the paperwork)
22:23:32 <oklopol> so it's my master's thesis
22:23:56 <alise> did tennis for two actually involve any skill?
22:25:31 <fizzie> oklopol: Okay. It's just that someone told me that for the doctoral thesis it's best to get the (small amount of) coursework done out of the way first, and was wondering about your thesis-first plans. But for the master's it sounds more sensibley.
22:27:05 <oklopol> you thought i might already be doing my phd after essentially studying math for a year?
22:27:44 <oklopol> i decided to ask if i could do that if i get any significant results during summer, but i didn't so i'm doing master's first
22:28:15 <oklopol> for any definition of significant, i was a waste of space all summer
22:28:47 <fizzie> Well, I don't know how math works! Math is hard! Maybe one math-year is equivalent to several dog, excuse me, computer-years. (No, in reality I just tend to lose track of years.)
22:29:46 <fizzie> I would've believed you if you told me you now have a meter-long math-beard and live in a tower built out of theorems named after you.
22:30:47 <oklopol> i'll keep my fingers crossed
22:30:54 <fizzie> I may be confusing mathematicians with wizards.
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22:37:21 <oklopol> are mathematicians wizard-like according to your sorcerers
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22:42:19 <fizzie> I can't quite conceive a young wizard, nor a young mathematician; ergo they're the same thing.
22:45:04 <fizzie> (87 % of sorcerers agree.)
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22:59:02 <alise> young mathematician: galois :P
22:59:07 <alise> unless you meant conceive in the other sense.
22:59:23 <alise> in which case, I recommend adoption.
22:59:41 <alise> cpressey: can I borrow some of your attention? I need some.
23:02:17 <cpressey> alise: if it's ok if i eat while i attend you
23:02:23 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:03:22 <alise> cpressey: how will you send the attention
23:10:48 <fizzie> I do intellectually know that there must be many young ones, I just somehow can't conceptualize one.
23:11:12 <cpressey> alise: i just realized if i give you my attention i will have NONE, and i won't even be able to snuffle around aimlessly at various windows on my destop like a computer-literate ferret.
23:11:16 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:11:28 <alise> COMPUTER-LITERATE FERRET OMG CUTEST THING EVER
23:11:29 <cpressey> alise: so, what do you need it for? it better be important.
23:11:39 <alise> i need it so that i can get things done
23:11:53 <alise> but that is now unnecessary OMG I WANT A COMPUTER-LITERATE FERRET
23:12:18 <olsner> if the collatz problem ends up being undecidable, does that imply it would be turing complete?
23:12:35 <alise> olsner: err, not really
23:12:38 <alise> halt/not halt != TC
23:12:47 <alise> and computing the next term is trivial
23:12:52 <alise> so i very much doubt it
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23:13:16 <alise> cpressey: Silly idea:
23:13:45 <alise> what's the x86 assembler instruction to "put this value here, literally"? I forget ...
23:13:46 <olsner> alise: that's what I suspected
23:14:03 <cpressey> olsner: if someone proved that it was undecidable by mapping a UTM to it, then yes. but not necessarily
23:14:13 <oklopol> "<olsner> if the collatz problem ends up being undecidable, does that imply it would be turing complete?" <<< when do people start asking these things
23:14:41 <alise> cpressey: no, no, i mean
23:14:48 <olsner> oklopol: we'll stop when there's a proof :P
23:14:50 <alise> cpressey: so if you wrote machine code
23:14:55 <alise> data 1 data 48 data 934
23:15:02 <alise> cpressey: do you know what it is in nasm?
23:15:19 <alise> grr, what retard decided not to hyperlink the list of instructions in intel's x86 reference?
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23:15:50 <olsner> alise: you mean like put constant data in your assembly program?
23:16:21 <cpressey> (that is stored at the label 'alise' :)
23:16:50 <alise> hmm, what's the machine code for "move these literal 32-bits into EAX?"
23:16:58 <alise> A1 MOV EAX,moffs32* Move doubleword at (seg:offset) to EAX ;; isn't it
23:16:58 <olsner> there should be dd and dq for double-word and quad-word data as well, if relevant
23:17:14 <olsner> mov instructions take immediate operands too
23:17:26 <alise> olsner: in /machine code/?
23:17:30 <olsner> so .... e.g. mov eax, 1
23:17:38 <alise> i'm not talking assembly
23:17:41 <alise> i'm talking raw opcodes here
23:17:46 <alise> of which mov has like 50 bajillion
23:18:06 <olsner> oh, not "is there", but *what is* the machine code
23:19:13 <cpressey> echo 'mov eax, 1' > foo.s && nasm foo.s foo.com && hd foo.com
23:19:28 <alise> cpressey: Dude, I'm sort of on Linux here. :)
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23:19:41 <cpressey> alise: so? you're not RUNNING it
23:19:43 * alise sudo clyde -S yasm
23:19:54 <alise> cpressey: i don't believe we have hd
23:20:15 * alise wonders what the yasm switches are to produce a com
23:20:15 -!- Hiant has joined.
23:20:20 <cpressey> What does GreaseMonkey's quit message mean?
23:20:22 <olsner> windows doesn't have either hd or hexdump anyway
23:20:50 <Hiant> alise: Well, I put the compiler on Esolang.
23:20:50 <cpressey> if they come back i'll ask them
23:20:55 <alise> hmph, it can only do dosexe
23:20:57 <alise> flat format binary
23:21:11 <alise> 0000000 b866 0001 0000
23:21:48 <olsner> oh, that looks like word-wise little-endian, which is wildly confusing
23:21:50 <alise> 00000000 66 b8 01 00 00 00 |f.....|
23:21:55 <olsner> use -C or something to get it by byte :)
23:21:59 <alise> yeah, just dude -C
23:22:36 <olsner> for small values there are probably shorter ways to write it
23:22:36 <alise> is "db 0xAB db 0xCD" always == "dw 0xABCD"?
23:22:58 <olsner> I think it'd be dw 0xCDAB
23:23:44 <olsner> but since x86 normally doesn't care about alignment or anything I'm pretty sure it's exactly equivalent to have a pair of db or a single dw
23:23:52 <alise> so double-word = 32-bit right?
23:24:55 <cpressey> alise: uh. are you writing a Pixley *compiler* in *assembly*? I'm s'posing not, but...
23:25:00 <alise> next_alloc: dd 0x00000001
23:25:08 <alise> that needs an inc next_alloc
23:25:16 <alise> how do you do ++ in asm?
23:25:24 <alise> also, the idea is that free() tweaks next_alloc >:)
23:25:34 <alise> cpressey: tl;dr a malloc() that goes ridiculously fast for no real reason
23:25:38 <alise> and i may well do that
23:25:42 <alise> compiler would be insane
23:25:55 <alise> malloc: inc [next_alloc]
23:25:55 <alise> next_alloc: dd 0x00000001
23:26:28 <alise> of course all the TOTALLY BORING safety features of recent processors will stop this fun
23:26:34 <cpressey> alise: now make free() take O(n^3) time
23:26:59 <olsner> x86 probably has cache coherency crud that makes it actually work to change the code as you go... other cpus would require you to flush the instruction cache after doing that
23:27:09 <olsner> at least if the memory protection features are suitably disabled
23:27:54 <olsner> oh, and of course, changing the code that close to running it probably comes with a massive penalty even when it works
23:28:16 <cpressey> alise: hooray for crud! see i thought you were writing the interpreter in asm until you asked what the machine codes for mov were, then i thought you were writing a compiler
23:28:26 <alise> ok put the inc afterwards
23:28:44 <alise> cpressey: I may be too lazy to even write ANYTHING!
23:28:52 <madbr> yeah the penalty for self modifying code on pentiums is ridiculous
23:28:58 <alise> How horrible would THAT be!
23:29:10 <madbr> they probably did that on purpose to make ppl stop doing that
23:29:13 <olsner> depending on how the rest of the code you generate looks, you could just reserve a register for the heap pointer
23:30:08 <alise> cpressey: Maybe I'll implement Pixley in awk!
23:30:17 <olsner> one register would be like a quarter of your usable registers though :)
23:30:43 * Sgeo_ should write some bots in Factor
23:30:59 <Sgeo_> Factor _still_ gives me a bit of a headache though
23:31:56 <olsner> alise: you should definitely go through with this and complete a compiler that outputs runnable machine code
23:32:05 <alise> so google has ads in the completion list now
23:32:10 <olsner> it'll expand your mind! (and completely fill the expanded parts with inane details on x86 instruction encodings)
23:32:19 <alise> but i hate x86 with a fiery passion
23:33:02 <cpressey> 80286 is not bad but anything more recent than that is slimey
23:33:21 <olsner> if it weren't for delay slots and all that, MIPS is a quite nice instruction set
23:33:33 <cpressey> you can just crib off the std libs for shelta
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23:33:41 <olsner> the instructions are practically entire structs
23:34:00 * Sgeo_ thinks there will probably be one person in all of AW who uses his Factor bindings...
23:34:14 <alise> and one person in all of Factor who uses your AW bindings
23:34:37 <alise> How do you refer to captured groups in awk? >__>
23:34:39 <alise> when you do /(foo)/
23:35:00 <cpressey> alise: with a ball peen hammer
23:36:05 <alise> (whitespace-separated, I think)
23:36:11 <alise> grr, why doesn't awk operate on arbitrary substrings, not lines?
23:36:15 <alise> i can't parse Lisp with this!
23:36:56 <olsner> I think you can specify your own record separator that isn't newline
23:36:57 <cpressey> it's not a programming language, well it is, but it's not
23:37:29 <alise> fuck emacs assembler mode, it's gas
23:37:36 <alise> olsner: you can't specify "", though
23:37:56 <cpressey> gnu emacs. gnu as. those guys really stick together.
23:38:48 <fizzie> I have a nasm-mode for Emacs, but it's full of my annoying idiosyncracies and therefore probably not people-friendly.
23:39:08 <alise> http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/structural_regexps/se.pdf
23:39:14 <alise> advocates substring based awk
23:40:23 <olsner> hmm, I think I haven't written any assembly since I started using vim ... at least not at home
23:41:21 <alise> cpressey: Let's learn PDP assembly.
23:41:22 <olsner> but I remember that nedit had highlighting for intel assembly
23:41:26 <alise> HAKMEM has tons of Lisp material for that.
23:41:58 <alise> cpressey: does Pixley have 'x syntax?
23:42:33 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/nasm-mode -- usable as nasm-mode.el if someone wants one. (Again, idiosyncratic and annoying.)
23:42:35 <cpressey> it doesn't have the ' syntax, technically
23:43:11 <cpressey> alise: let's learn Python's bytecode
23:43:36 <Sgeo_> As a Python native: TEACH ME!
23:43:37 <alise> cpressey: "Pixley's syntax is identical to Scheme's"
23:43:40 <cpressey> make an ew proposal, get an ew response
23:43:48 <alise> cpressey: but PDP assembly is good
23:44:25 <alise> fizzie: c64-asm-mode :D
23:44:28 <alise> cpressey: I won't do ', then.
23:44:40 <alise> err, is awk meant to echo out lines by default?
23:44:44 <Vorpal> <alise> (whitespace-separated, I think) <-- by default yes. you can change that by -F
23:45:26 <fizzie> alise: oh, is that in a comment there? They share the code.
23:45:26 <alise> /[0-9]+/ { print }
23:45:30 <olsner> alise: except for the abomination that is motif and its sucky implementations, nedit is quite nice editor
23:45:42 <alise> olsner: yes, just unusual choice
23:45:44 <Vorpal> alise, that is not record separator though
23:45:50 <Vorpal> alise, it is field separator
23:46:00 <alise> Vorpal: hm, indeed
23:46:03 <Vorpal> alise, besides you linked awklisp before
23:46:12 <alise> it uses a read() procedure
23:46:23 <alise> is record separator RS?
23:46:28 <Vorpal> alise, I don't remember
23:46:34 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think I *ever* changed it
23:46:52 <alise> now why does this program:
23:46:55 <alise> /[0-9]+/ { print }
23:47:12 <alise> ...and also print out the whole line, not just the number...
23:47:32 <Vorpal> well, print alone would print the whole line
23:47:46 <Vorpal> alise, you just matched a record
23:47:58 <alise> oh you have to put RS= in BEGIN
23:48:03 <alise> Vorpal: yes, but the whole line is one record
23:48:07 <alise> which should be broken by a space
23:48:13 <alise> but see what i said
23:48:23 <Vorpal> alise, you need FS/OFS there too
23:48:25 <alise> now it waits for ^D XD
23:48:37 <alise> Vorpal: OFS is fine
23:48:44 <alise> does FS = "" work?
23:48:54 <Vorpal> alise, I have absolutely no idea
23:49:11 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/c64-asm-mode just in case; though these might not be latest versions.
23:49:12 <alise> it splits every character
23:49:23 <Vorpal> alise, I don't use awk as an esolang. I use it for some text processing where sed would be rather more painful
23:49:31 <alise> awk isn't an esolang
23:49:32 <Vorpal> so the help I can give you is rather limited
23:49:37 <alise> just a regular lang with a special feature
23:49:42 <alise> i just happen to be abusing the special feature
23:49:59 <Vorpal> alise, nor is C an esolang. Yet I would say IOCCC is a pretty esoteric usage of C
23:50:03 <alise> in fact, awk-without-separators (i.e. substring awk) is just a lexical analyser
23:50:05 <Vorpal> alise, and it was in that sense I meant here
23:51:11 <Vorpal> alise, $0 would refer to the whole record
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23:51:24 <Vorpal> presumably even with $1,$2 and so on being 1 char is
23:54:10 <Sgeo_> (From someone in another channel:)
23:54:10 <Sgeo_> Lets say your kid's fifteen birthday is coming up, but you only have 4 birthday candles for the birthday cake. What do you do?
23:55:02 <fungot> cpressey: ( ( i know yeah it's out there they have to
23:55:58 <alise> Sgeo_: Your kid's? Shit I'm young.
23:56:04 <alise> Sgeo_: Also, wish him a happy fourth birthday.
23:56:27 <Sgeo_> I said something similar
23:56:29 <Sgeo_> "<Omorpheus> No. That is wrong. You buy more birthday candles."
23:57:43 <alise> That is also true.
23:59:51 <cpressey> Say each of the candles counts for 3.75 years.
00:00:20 -!- alise has left (?).
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00:00:31 <alise> it seems as if RS must be a single string
00:00:35 <cpressey> Carefully melt three of the candles together to form a figure "5".
00:00:36 <alise> not a string representing a bunch of options
00:01:04 <alise> When using gawk, the value of RS is not limited to a one-character string. It can be any regular expression (see Regexp).
00:01:12 <cpressey> I'm sorry Joey, you don't GET a birthday party this year.
00:01:19 <alise> cpressey: It's okay if pixley.awk only runs on gawk, right>?
00:01:25 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow).
00:01:58 <alise> cpressey: ARE YOU INSULTING MY COEDING SKILZ
00:02:05 <alise> I'm very good at coeducationaling.
00:02:25 <cpressey> denigrating the awkgramming capacities of awk
00:02:40 <alise> HAVE YOU NOT READ AWKLISP?
00:03:18 <alise> Quick! Produce a regular expression that matches nothing.
00:04:07 <alise> hahaha wow it's working
00:04:16 <alise> ereswmara: No, that does not match anything.
00:04:19 <alise> Who are you again?
00:04:33 -!- ereswmara has changed nick to nooga.
00:04:33 <alise> ereswmara: no, no string matches it
00:04:36 <alise> matching always fails
00:04:49 <cpressey> alise: Your request was ambiguously worded.
00:05:57 <cpressey> so my next esolang is going to be called Pophery
00:06:10 <alise> cpressey: it has no numbers, right? right.
00:06:25 <alise> So let's see, what's the easiest part to parse. A symbol.
00:06:30 <alise> What are the valid symbol characters again?
00:06:32 <cpressey> Pophery, indeed, has no numbers either
00:07:32 <cpressey> I was trying to remember how to spell "Porphyry" and that came out.
00:08:10 <alise> /^[a-zA-Z!$%&*+\-./:<=>?@^_~][a-zA-Z0-9!$%&*+\-./:<=>?@^_~]*$/ {
00:08:34 <alise> Pixley: SIMPLE NO MORE
00:09:03 <cpressey> One advantage of implementing it in Scheme: I could ignore that sort of garbage
00:09:21 <cpressey> There's even a demented-looking emoticon in there
00:09:26 <alise> Ugh, lexical scoping is going to be a bitch.
00:09:30 <alise> type[parsed] = Symbol
00:09:34 <alise> /^[a-zA-Z!$%&*+\-./:<=>?@^_~][a-zA-Z0-9!$%&*+\-./:<=>?@^_~]*$/ {
00:09:35 <alise> type[parsed] = Symbol
00:09:51 <alise> Actually, I need to allocate parsed there.
00:10:13 <nooga> i need to learn Prolog quickly
00:10:48 <nooga> i need to learn goddamn Prolog
00:11:12 <nooga> my idiotic university requires Prolog for one course
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00:11:25 <nooga> how about lists and stuff
00:11:48 <alise> anyway, prolog is cool
00:12:15 <nooga> maybe it is, but I can't find any cool application for it... at least now
00:12:43 <alise> oh cool, you don't allocate lists in awk
00:12:46 <alise> they just sort of exist, always.
00:12:58 <cpressey> all praise the dark lord (awk)
00:15:42 <cpressey> Pophery is basically designed and implemented, but the example programs are not so easy for me to think about, so it's stalled
00:16:08 <cpressey> I need to get some running so I know whether I'm going to need to add an instruction though
00:16:52 <alise> http://pastie.org/1142600.txt?key=gzctp9xutdmiokiu2x4ag
00:16:57 <alise> anyone care to point out why this allocator doesn't work?
00:17:14 <alise> hmm, apart from decrementing next_ids_ptr when i shouldn't (when it's false)
00:17:49 <alise> function next_id() {
00:17:49 <alise> if (next_ids_ptr) {
00:17:49 <alise> return next_ids[next_ids_ptr--]
00:20:12 <alise> cpressey: does Pixley support (a . b) syntax?
00:20:29 <alise> cpressey: you don't specify so...
00:20:44 <cpressey> basically, if you don't see it in pixley.pix, you don't have to support it
00:20:52 <alise> so every pixley program is one value?
00:20:54 <alise> that's convenient too
00:20:59 <alise> (although I probably want a REPL, right?)
00:21:08 <cpressey> well, i don't think i defined input, which is too bad
00:21:26 <alise> pixley is one expression, so
00:21:27 <cpressey> a magical 'input' symbol which is bound to input would be ok
00:21:30 <alise> that makes things easier
00:21:35 <alise> how about a parameter to a lambda
00:21:39 <alise> every program is (prog input)
00:21:42 <alise> what format is it in?
00:21:45 <alise> all you have is symbols dawg
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00:22:39 <cpressey> you don't need to have string, for your s-expression to be in a text file
00:22:45 <cpressey> maybe i don't understand the question
00:23:15 <cpressey> (wait, does awk let you parse the command line?)
00:23:24 <alise> what variable is input
00:23:26 <alise> you said bind input
00:23:46 <cpressey> the symbol 'input' can be magically bound to some input s-expr provided by the interpreter
00:24:03 <alise> just have it that every program is
00:24:08 <alise> so you write a program as
00:24:08 <cpressey> so... the pixley program (cons input input) would... yeah
00:24:11 <alise> (lambda (input) ...)
00:24:15 <alise> (lambda (x) (cons x x))
00:24:27 <cpressey> *pretend* that there's a (lambda (input) ...) around the damn thing
00:24:34 <alise> cpressey: no, there should literally be one, this is scheme!
00:24:39 <alise> you should be able to do
00:24:48 <alise> (let ((compose ...)) (compose a-program another-program))
00:24:51 <alise> and let that be your function
00:24:53 <alise> of one argument (the input)
00:24:54 <nooga> is there a way to declare things in swi-prolog prompt ?
00:25:19 <cpressey> a pixley program is one value, right? then, if that value is a lambda, it makes sense for your interpreter to supply values (i.e. input) to it, before evaluating it
00:25:30 <alise> cpressey: before evaluating it?
00:25:36 <alise> calling a function causes the evaluation of its contents anyway :)
00:26:56 <SgeoN1> Any lick with HackFactor?
00:27:07 <cpressey> SgeoN1: We licked it real good
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00:28:06 <alise> you can't have () be a field separator
00:28:10 <alise> because you'll never see it
00:28:14 <alise> so basically /^$/ matches ( or )
00:28:31 <alise> gnu awk says which separator it was in a variable
00:29:53 <cpressey> alise: gah. write it however your like, Pixley's interface to the rest of the world is not rigorously define, nor should it necessarily be so
00:30:13 <alise> cpressey: i'm just babbling about my implementation
00:32:26 <nooga> i'd like to "zip" two lists in prolog
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00:34:53 <cpressey> nooga: i don't remember how to do that. rusty!
00:35:41 <alise> nooga: zip([X|Xs],[Y|Ys],[[X,Y]|Zs]) :- zip(Xs,Ys,Zs).
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00:36:02 <alise> zip([X|Xs],[Y|Ys],[[X,Y]|Zs]) :- zip(Xs,Ys,Zs).
00:38:18 <cpressey> DIMX(10),Y(10),Z(20):FORI=1TO10:Z(I*2-1)=X(I):Z(I*2)=Y(I):NEXTI
00:39:43 <cpressey> so anyway. back to screwing up the courage to code in Pophery...
00:41:41 <alise> nooga: on what input?
00:41:46 <alise> cpressey: I *believe* I have a working list parser now...
00:41:49 <cpressey> ERROR: toplevel: Undefined procedure: (:-)/2 (DWIM could not correct goal)
00:41:51 <alise> cpressey: Though it's so gnarly that I want to rewrite it already.
00:41:57 <cpressey> swi-prolog you're such a sweethear
00:41:57 <alise> cpressey: assertz((foo :- bar)).
00:42:00 <alise> all prologs do that
00:42:08 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '(' | awk -f pixley.awk
00:42:08 <alise> Unmatched ( on line 2
00:42:14 <nooga> zip([1,2,3],[4,5,6],Result).
00:42:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:43:15 <nooga> i thought about something simmilar but with use of append
00:46:20 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '()' | awk -f pixley.awk
00:46:20 <alise> Unmatched ( on line 2
00:46:35 <nooga> they should implement some sort of switching
00:46:55 <cpressey> nooga: that would indeed allow them to achieve a higher voltage
00:46:59 <nooga> between query mode and the other mode
00:47:19 <nooga> experimenting would be easier
00:48:57 <cpressey> why do i design languages that rub my own brain raw?
00:49:42 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '(a)' | awk -f pixley.awk
00:49:42 <alise> Unmatched ( on line 1
00:49:50 <cpressey> i might just release the damn thing and let someone else tell me what kind of code you can write in it
00:50:00 <alise> but doesn't parse to anything
00:50:03 <nooga> alise: i'd like to have two modes, one, in which i could define predicates without having to write assertz() and then i could switch to query mode to query ;f
00:50:06 <alise> cpressey: wanna try and figure out this parser?!!!
00:50:15 <alise> nooga: it's called a file
00:50:21 <alise> cpressey: it's just AWK!
00:50:38 <nooga> yeah, but it's so uncomfortable
00:51:00 <nooga> save, load, query, change, save, load, query, uuuhg
00:51:21 <alise> load is just [filename-sans-extension]. iirc
00:51:21 <nooga> oh, i could implement simple prolog in ruby
00:51:26 <alise> though that may be gprolog-only
00:51:36 <alise> nooga: do you have any idea how hard it is to write the algorithm without it being always exponential?
00:52:04 <nooga> but the best way to learn a lang is to implement it
00:52:16 <nooga> who cares about speed or correctness :D
00:52:17 <cpressey> alise: i hear conan the barbarian uses awk
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00:55:10 <alise> cpressey: maybe I'll have that a pair with no car or cdr is NIL >:)
00:58:50 <SgeoN1> Just attempting to read Factor code is a chore
00:59:45 <alise> cpressey: that's (quote NIL-OBJECT)
01:01:57 <SgeoN1> I'm beginning to consider switching back to Smalltalk, but Factor has so many great things
01:02:03 <cpressey> i ought to write a pixley repl, then i could ask it
01:03:10 <cpressey> alise: "Like Scheme, a literal null list can be denoted by (quote ())."
01:06:20 <alise> It's a contrivance, a strategy.
01:06:34 <alise> An outline, a schedule.
01:06:54 <alise> It is an action, a conspiracy, a cable, a dodge; a game, a hustle, an intrigue, a plot.
01:07:02 <alise> CAN YOU TELL WHAT IT IS YET?
01:10:48 <cpressey> why the heck did i not write a repl for Pixley?
01:11:03 <cpressey> ah, so much evil to do, so little time
01:15:40 <alise> cpressey: this is so hard
01:16:05 <cpressey> alise: a) awk is not your friend b) copy what awklist does c) that's cheating
01:16:16 <alise> cpressey: d) I'm not cheating mwahaha
01:16:18 <alise> although (a) doesn't work atm
01:17:04 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '' | awk -f pixley2.awk
01:17:04 <alise> Complete lack of anything on line any-you-want
01:17:23 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '' | awk -f pixley2.awk
01:17:23 <alise> Complete lack of anything on line ... there were no lines!
01:18:44 <cpressey> alise: http://chasen.org/~daiti-m/etc/awk/walk.pdf
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01:22:57 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '(a )' | awk -f pixley2.awk
01:22:57 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '(a b )' | awk -f pixley2.awk
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01:25:24 <alise> cpressey: well, it parses (), one-element lists with the right parenthesis preceded by a space, and symbols.
01:25:35 <cpressey> i would write a preprocessor in awk
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01:25:48 <alise> Oh, and this works:
01:25:50 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '((()))' | awk -f pixley2.awk
01:26:35 <cpressey> can awk launch other programs>
01:26:51 <alise> maybe. but that's cheating
01:26:56 <cpressey> (it's not cheating if it launches another awk!)
01:27:18 <alise> if you had a shell to interpret the command string to run you'd use an interpreter written in sh instead, it'd be saner :)
01:29:41 <cpressey> can you swallow the whole damn program with one /.*/ match, then manually work on it with substr, while, etc?
01:30:56 <cpressey> and i'd put the comment "all your pixley are belong to us" beside the match
01:31:35 <alise> cpressey: dude, that's the thing i'm trying to avoid
01:31:38 <alise> i'm leveraging awk's strengths
01:31:42 <alise> not being boring like awklisp
01:31:55 <alise> it totally is, my parser is only utterly hideous.
01:32:06 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '(((a )))' | awk -f pixley2.awk
01:32:31 <alise> cpressey: is it acceptable if I just have the symbol chars be alphanumeric plus the hyphen?
01:33:17 <cpressey> http://chasen.org/~daiti-m/etc/awk/ (shift-JIS?)
01:34:34 <Hiant> What horrifying code monstrosity are you two creating?
01:34:50 <alise> Hiant: I'm implementing Pixley (Scheme subset) in awk!
01:34:57 <alise> SUCH TREMENDOUS FUN!
01:35:16 <alise> Hiant: YOU CANNOT DENY THE FUN
01:35:24 <Hiant> I just finished Hello World in fully optimized OTOH
01:35:53 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '((a43 (a)))' | awk -f pixley2.awk
01:35:59 <Hiant> ~?^?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"_>?~^~"?~^~"~<^~:_[>^?~^~"?~^~"
01:36:01 <Hiant> ?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"_>^?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"
01:36:02 <alise> GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
01:36:02 <Hiant> ?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"_>^?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"_>^?~^~"_
01:36:04 <Hiant> <<<<^?~^~'_]>^?~^~"?~^~"_.>^?~^~"_.^?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^
01:36:05 <Hiant> ~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"_..^?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"_.>^?~^~"?~^~"_.<<^
01:36:07 <Hiant> ?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"
01:36:09 <Hiant> ?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"_.>.^?~^~"?~^~"?~^~"_.
01:36:10 <Hiant> ^?~^~'?~^~'?~^~'?~^~'?~^~'?~^~'_.^?~^~'?~^~'?~^~'?~^~'?~
01:36:11 <Hiant> ^~'?~^~'?~^~'?~^~'_.>^?~^~".>.
01:36:41 <Hiant> okay okay, I am slowllly backing away...
01:36:44 -!- Hiant has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]).
01:36:56 <alise> i probably spammed more than you :D
01:36:58 <alise> Hiant: use a pastebin
01:37:04 <alise> to post long stuff
01:37:20 <madbr> you scared him away
01:37:22 <alise> scared off by the irc
01:37:29 <alise> madbr: i think your alt+f4 probably contributed :|
01:37:35 <alise> my STOPs were still arriving
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01:41:57 <cpressey> and Pophery has a cousin called Nhohnhehr
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01:53:44 <Hiant> Am I allowed back?
01:54:17 <alise> you were never meant to go :P
01:54:24 <alise> I just spammed stop because clients often don't see stuff while flooding
01:55:10 <Hiant> Oh. Well, sorry anyways.
01:55:13 <Sgeo_> On some clients, /flushq will stop the client from sending stuff
01:55:25 * Sgeo_ has no clue for ChatZilla
01:55:32 <coppro> man, supernovae are scary
01:55:46 <coppro> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/SN1994D.jpg that is a galaxy, and the supernova is just as bright
01:56:13 <alise> supernovae are awesome
01:57:07 <Hiant> Best explosions in the universe.
01:57:57 <lament> maybe the supernova is much closer. or much further away. terrible photo
01:58:50 <Hiant> I can only hope that two black holes collide. That would be even better.
02:01:47 <Hiant> The projected kickback would send a massive black hole hurtling through space, disrupting orbits etc all around it.
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02:02:24 <Hiant> Nostradamus never had a clue. What a way to go.
02:02:37 <alise> Hiant: I'd sort of like to survive
02:02:52 <Hiant> Technically, you might.
02:03:06 <Hiant> You would be trapped at the even horizon forever.
02:03:36 -!- Gregor has joined.
02:04:05 <Hiant> Bad news, you would be staring into the darkest black in existence.
02:04:07 <coppro> Hiant: they wouldn't just merge?
02:05:09 <Hiant> coppro: Nope, actually its hypothesized that they would powerfully reject each other. Intro link:http://www.universetoday.com/13002/what-happens-when-supermassive-black-holes-collide/
02:06:29 <Hiant> Not to mention that the resulting x-ray blast would probably be even brighter (in the x-ray spectrum) then a supernova.
02:07:07 <alise> You might want to put a space after that colon so our pitiful clients link it :)
02:07:35 <Hiant> alise: I only noticed that afterward. A little late at that point.
02:07:45 <alise> let's just wham two galaxies with supermassive black holes in them together at near-lightspeed
02:07:53 <alise> best light show EVER
02:07:59 <alise> just make sure they're very, very far away from us
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02:10:23 <Hiant> Anyways, what esoteric languages does everyone like?
02:11:01 <Hiant> My personal favorite are the line-noise ones. (ex Unlamda)
02:11:26 <pikhq> Befunge '98 is quite amazing.
02:12:15 <alise> it's just hard to implement
02:12:23 <pikhq> alise: I like TRDS, okay?
02:12:36 <alise> pikhq: Don't remind me of MKRY. :-(
02:12:38 <pikhq> But. It's mostly amazing for being somehow practical and *not*.
02:12:50 <alise> I guess I still feel partly responsible for that. Maybe.
02:13:44 <pikhq> Hiant: Hmm. Brainfuck's a fairly commonly liked thing.
02:14:03 <pikhq> Not the world's most clever, or even *that* difficult, but there's something appealing to it nevertheless.
02:15:06 <Hiant> I agree about Brainfuck, but it carries a unique burden as well.
02:15:36 <pikhq> I'd say the single hardest thing about Brainfuck is memory management.
02:16:04 <Hiant> Brainfuck provides the simplest platform for Turing-complete languages.
02:16:08 <pikhq> Takes on a whole new level of "hard" when you need to do memory management for all variables and have a single pointer.
02:16:25 <Hiant> Meaning that it gets altered and morphed over and over again.
02:17:00 <Hiant> pikhq: I whole-heartedly agree. Ruby has me spoiled rotten.
02:17:32 <alise> cpressey: This is difficult.
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02:18:26 <Gregor> Looka my fancy new hostname :)
02:20:03 <Hiant> pikhq:Yeah, but when you need to quickly code something, nothings better.
02:20:56 <Hiant> Ruby practically counts as an esolang, anyways, because of the ability of name-space abuse.
02:21:02 <pikhq> Python, Perl, shell, Tcl, Javascript, beating yourself in the head with a mallet for a bit, sometimes even C...
02:21:15 <alise> cpressey: I don't know why awk is torturing me like this.
02:21:45 <alise> it appears to be excessively bitching
02:22:03 <alise> bitching is the technical term
02:22:42 <alise> Who wants to DEBUG my AWK?! pikhq!
02:24:06 <pikhq> Though you may get bitching.
02:24:30 <Hiant> Once you have seen really bad Ruby, its actually quite horrifying. I have seen line-noise that re-defines itself every few lines (ab)using alias.
02:24:47 <alise> pikhq: http://pastie.org/1142766.txt?key=k1iwgregkinotdieb8qg
02:24:58 <alise> pikhq: Yes, I know the RS-as-regexp thing is gawk only. It's required for my horrific parser structure.
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02:25:21 <alise> pikhq: Your job: Find out why "(a b)" parses as ().
02:25:34 -!- Gregor has joined.
02:25:40 <alise> $ echo '(a b)' | awk -f pixley2.awk
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02:25:56 <pikhq> Clearly, your problem is that you are using awk.
02:26:26 <alise> pikhq: Okay. Now diagnose my actual bug. :|
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02:29:15 <Sgeo_> Factor has distributed concurrency
02:29:21 <cpressey> alise: You are using a finite-state automaton to do a push-down automaton's job.
02:29:22 <Sgeo_> It has everything I want except easy-of-reading
02:29:46 <alise> cpressey: Shut up :P
02:29:54 <alise> Sgeo_: that's probably just your BROKEN BRAIN.
02:31:58 <cpressey> alise: you never fixed next_id
02:32:15 <alise> cpressey: what's broken?
02:32:28 <zzo38> See if you can make something with the templates that I have added into esolang wiki
02:32:34 <cpressey> thought you said it needed a ++ instead of a --
02:32:42 <alise> cpressey: no, i worked it all out
02:32:45 <alise> it's totally fine.
02:32:51 <alise> the issue is in the parser
02:32:54 <alise> i think push_parsed()
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02:34:45 <alise> Gregor! Fix a tok.
02:35:01 <Gregor> What does "fix a tok" mean?
02:35:02 <alise> Gregor: Could I persuade you to download that tarball outside HackEgo's root and then unpack it to inside?
02:35:34 <Gregor> In principle I'd rather actually fix whatever's wrong with HackBot, but in reality, sure.
02:35:39 <cpressey> Get real! Even Gregor oversleeps regularly.
02:36:20 <cpressey> alise: i have no idea what is wrong with your parser
02:36:50 <alise> Gregor: Fetchin' a link, just a secondamo.
02:36:59 <alise> Gregor: http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
02:38:08 <alise> WHYY IS MY KEYBOARD BROKEN
02:46:27 <alise> cpressey: FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT
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02:52:04 <alise> pikhq: DEBUG MY AWK
02:52:21 <alise> Ohh I see what I did wrong
02:54:19 <alise> But still it fails.
02:54:29 <madbr> someone should make a tonal esoteric language
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02:58:55 <alise> cpressey: [[If new calculations are correct, the universe just got even stranger. Scientists at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, have constructed mathematical formulas that conclude black holes cannot exist. The findings--if correct--could revolutionize astrophysics and resolve a paradox that has perplexed physicists for 4 decades.]]
02:58:56 <alise> cpressey: DAMN YOU
02:59:40 <pikhq> That creates another paradox.
02:59:51 <pikhq> Given that black holes have been observed.
03:03:17 <madbr> university of cleveland
03:04:35 <Sgeo_> alise, what's that PDF reader you recommended?
03:04:37 <Gregor> Black holes have not been observed, effects attributed to black holes have been observed.
03:04:45 <alise> Sgeo_: For Winsleep?
03:04:56 <alise> Gregor: pikhq: cpressey insists they are explainable otherwise
03:05:33 <pikhq> Gregor: Ah, right. Minor but probably important distinction.
03:07:02 <madbr> well, irl languages that have tone are like, each syllable, instead of being consonant+vowel, is consonant+vowel+tone
03:07:14 <madbr> where tone is typically something like high or low
03:07:53 <madbr> or hi/med/low, or hi/rising/falling-low-rising/falling
03:08:12 <madbr> dunno how that would be interpreted in a computer language
03:08:29 <pikhq> Eh, tonal languages are a pain.
03:09:04 <Gregor> alise: Conclusion: factor is fucking enormous :P
03:09:16 <alise> Gregor: It does include the default VM image...
03:09:19 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.6857 \ wunderbar_emporium
03:09:41 <Gregor> alise: I unpacked it and updated the hg repo, which was then 122MB and took a noticeable amount of time (say, 20 seconds) just to lndir it ...
03:09:46 <Gregor> (Which is to say, clone)
03:10:04 <alise> So is it... there?
03:10:15 <Gregor> Too friggin' annoying.
03:10:23 <Gregor> Actually makes me consider switching to svn as a backend.
03:11:03 <alise> Gregor: If I say "git", will you murder all my future babies?
03:11:20 <Gregor> alise: Would make no difference.
03:11:47 <Gregor> Because either way you're lndiring a 122MB directory and then copying a bunch of shit.
03:12:14 <alise> Gregor: Actually, git checkout -a is faster than cp.
03:12:27 <Gregor> Still takes too damned long.
03:12:31 <alise> Meanwhile: http://i.imgur.com/LOAMZ.jpg
03:13:57 <alise> Haha what, they've redesigned the iPod nano and it's now multitouch, despite being friggin tiny.
03:14:03 <alise> They chopped off everything that isn't the screen and now it's square.
03:14:11 <alise> http://images.apple.com/ipodnano/images/overview_featurette_design20100901.png
03:14:16 <alise> I can totally imagine scrolling that.
03:14:28 <alise> Gregor: It's hilarious in a way.
03:14:28 <Gregor> Especially since multitouch hasn't managed to advance past gimmick status on any other device.
03:14:37 <alise> Uhh, multitouch on my iPhone is pretty nice.
03:14:51 <Gregor> Other than the totally ridiculous pinch-zoom feature, where do you use it?
03:15:10 <cpressey> Gregor: is why I asked for pics. (it seems to me that if they do exist there's a good chance there's one somewhere that's between us and a nebula or galaxy, and we ought to be able to "see" it pretty directly)
03:15:19 <alise> Gregor: Trying to think XD
03:15:59 <cpressey> alise: according to awklisp guy, multitouch is the future
03:16:22 <Gregor> cpressey: Maybe it is, but right now nobody uses it to do anything you couldn't do with monotouch.
03:16:23 <cpressey> i stopped reading his blog at that point
03:30:07 <alise> Whyy is this so broke
03:30:25 <pikhq> Multitouch is perhaps the future for portable devices.
03:30:49 <pikhq> Touch-anything really, really, really, really sucks for anything that's not in your hands.
03:31:02 <pikhq> I am not holding my hand up to my desktop screen to touch it.
03:33:17 <Gregor> Things between us and PADDs:
03:33:26 <Gregor> 1) Apple's insistence on shitty overdone graphics.
03:33:43 <pikhq> 2) Everyone else's insistence on playing follow the leader
03:33:49 <pikhq> Especially on overdone graphics.
03:33:54 <Gregor> And that's ... like, it.
03:34:04 <Gregor> We'd have PADDs if Apple wasn't Appling out everything.
03:34:23 <pikhq> For instance: my WebOS device would actually be significantly better if it used, say, Grey Mist as its theme.
03:34:39 <pikhq> Rather than "use the CPU on graphics, not doing stuff".
03:36:28 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '(((a)b(c)))' | awk -f pixley2.awk
03:36:31 <alise> cpressey: IT BEGINS
03:36:47 <alise> pikhq: Your compliment is accepted.
03:36:57 <alise> Gregor: PADDs are rather more magical than just a good touchscreen.
03:37:07 <alise> For instance, nobody is ever seen entering information on them.
03:37:13 <alise> Or, indeed, typing anything, on anything.
03:37:24 <alise> Their laptops just have gigantic buttons and a bunch of space for keyboards.
03:37:28 <alise> (And tiny screens, too!)
03:38:04 <Gregor> alise: We see people entering information on them, like, all the effing time.
03:38:12 <Gregor> By boopin' and beepin' and typin'.
03:38:19 <alise> But there's nothing to fucking press!
03:38:34 <alise> You see people magically getting information on to them, but there's no obvious way in which they actually do it.
03:38:49 <alise> http://pastie.org/1142866.txt?key=gjb9qrkdcpbwx1xl2v4t0a THE ONLY S-EXPRESSION PARSER LEVERAGING AWK'S FULL EXPRESSIVE POWER
03:38:52 <pikhq> alise: Seriously, Grey Mist is very nice.
03:38:53 <Gregor> alise: They just don't show the screen when it's in input mode :P
03:39:06 <alise> pikhq: Donations accepted
03:39:14 <alise> Gregor: Why do their laptops have a few buttons and nothing else?
03:39:19 <cpressey> pikhq: you just need to put the touch device closer to where your hands naturally fall
03:39:21 <alise> Do you lunge over and flail your hands wildly on their far-away screen to type?
03:39:44 <Gregor> alise: I'll admit I have no idea to what device you're referring to when you say "laptops", since AFAIrecall they have no such device ...
03:40:08 <alise> Gregor: I know "All Good Things..." had one... let me Memory Alpha it up.
03:40:15 <pikhq> alise: Though not shown on-screen, the LCARS interface is a touchscreen thing with tactile feedback.
03:40:41 <alise> pikhq: I like how they never need to look at it to control it.
03:40:43 <pikhq> (as shown on screen, it was just colored plexiglass with backlights)
03:40:51 <pikhq> alise: Yes, it felt like actual buttons.
03:40:57 <pikhq> Do you look at your keyboard?
03:41:00 <alise> pikhq: Tactile feedback does not instant spatial interface recall make.
03:41:07 <alise> No, but my keyboard is always the same and densely packed.
03:41:30 <pikhq> It's actual buttons. You can has spatial interface recall.
03:41:31 <alise> Gregor: Gahh, I can't find a picture.
03:41:45 <pikhq> Well, psuedobuttons.
03:41:54 <alise> Oh goody, someone's uploaded it to YouTube so I can point you at a time.
03:42:04 <pikhq> (I wonder if each LCARS panel was a mini-holodeck?)
03:42:04 <Gregor> Aaaaaaanywho, I'm less concerned with LCARS in general (although that'd be a plus) than PADDs in particular.
03:42:14 <alise> LCARS was pretty ugly though
03:42:22 <Gregor> No. LCARS is perfection in UI form.
03:42:27 <alise> The colours, dude.
03:42:29 <pikhq> alise: It was meant to look practical and usable, not beautiful.
03:42:52 <alise> pikhq: They are not contradictory goals.
03:42:55 <pikhq> "Something that would be on a bridge", not "something that would make Steve Jobs proud".
03:43:11 <alise> Then how come the Enterprise is designed for slickness in every other way?
03:43:16 <pikhq> Still, I will grant that the coloring was vomit on vomit.
03:43:24 <pikhq> alise: Because fuck you logic.
03:43:35 <Gregor> Probably don't need to stick with the COLORS, just the DESIGN :P
03:43:42 <pikhq> The rest of it was, of course, a cruise ship.
03:43:55 <alise> Gregor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i6RSZYGy2E#t=4m11s
03:44:57 <Gregor> alise: What, that? I never considered that to be a laptop-alike, I thought it was a stationary comm device ...
03:45:18 <alise> Gregor: That would be stupid; why would they make a solitary comm device, with the flexible interfaces they have?
03:45:21 <alise> Fuck, they have voice interfaces.
03:45:32 <alise> cpressey: Should a Pixley interpreter read "42" as a number?
03:45:34 <alise> Without the quotes.
03:45:36 <alise> cpressey: Should a Pixley interpreter read "42" as a symbol?
03:45:38 <alise> Without the quotes.
03:45:43 <alise> Technically, it'd be a syntax error now, but that seems bizarre.
03:47:49 <alise> Sweet, I can implement booleans as symbols.
03:47:58 <alise> What hath god wrought?
03:48:09 <pikhq> alise: The first thing to realise about Star Trek technology is that they hate using their tech wisely.
03:48:31 <pikhq> For instance. They apparently have *true AI*.
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03:48:39 <pikhq> Why the hell do they actually *man* their ships?
03:49:59 <alise> pikhq: Because Patrick Stewart.
03:50:16 <pikhq> alise: Explain Voyager.
03:50:42 <alise> pikhq: Seven of Nine.
03:50:51 <pikhq> If they were smart, Voyager would have been manned by the Doctor.
03:51:00 <alise> (If the only reason she was in the show was fanservice, it stands to reason that ...)
03:51:11 <alise> (... I'm not sure how anything stands to reason, but there you go.)
04:00:21 <alise> cpressey: I have figured out how to do a REPL.
04:01:24 <alise> cpressey: I'll just parse it as a symbol then.
04:01:30 <cpressey> if you treat it as a symbol... that would be valid Pixley but invalid Scheme, I think.
04:02:33 <cpressey> well, it's undefined pixley. therefore not invalid.
04:02:55 <cpressey> (to be a bit more political about it)
04:03:09 <alise> How strange; it works now.
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04:04:17 <Gregor> Somebody linked me at http://10gui.com/video/
04:04:38 <Gregor> I'd like to see a hybrid of some of those ideas with LCARS.
04:04:43 <Gregor> (Not all of those, since a lot of those ideas are crapsulistic ... )
04:04:47 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '()' | awk -f pixley2.awk -v repl=1
04:04:47 <alise> [ehird@dinky pixley]$ echo '(+ 2 2) ()' | awk -f pixley2.awk -v repl=1
04:04:58 <alise> Gregor: EVER TRIED WRITING A LISP REPL USING AWK?
04:05:03 <oerjan> 17:08:31 <alise> a punning clan
04:05:04 <oerjan> 17:10:19 * cpressey cues oerjan
04:05:07 <Gregor> alise: No. No I have not :P
04:05:10 <alise> And I mean REALLY using awk, writing the parser using awk patterns.
04:05:12 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've heard that before
04:05:14 <alise> Because that is fucking hard.
04:05:17 <alise> oerjan: i've said it before
04:06:44 <oerjan> my memory is too vague to be sure i've heard it from anyone not-alise, alas
04:08:06 <oerjan> <alise> "There is no compiler, only a tree-walking interpreter. BTW, I do not think that there are many tree-walking interpreters out there that do tail call optimization. ArrowLISP does."
04:08:12 <cpressey> sigh. I'm going to have to add another instruction to Pophery. Or another slot (=register), but forget that.
04:08:16 <oerjan> also Unlambda in INTERCAL >:)
04:08:35 <alise> cpressey: care to describe it?
04:21:09 <alise> cpressey: what's `which awk` for you?
04:22:23 <alise> dfg why does this happen
04:23:26 <alise> it reads two symbols at a time
04:24:16 <oerjan> hey, i recognize that nick from the iwc forums
04:24:44 <cpressey> alise: /usr/bin/awk... it's mawk, not gawk
04:25:09 <alise> cpressey: do you have /bin/awk?
04:25:47 <oerjan> (isn't that the guy with an avatar that is a piet program...)
04:32:28 * Sgeo_ wonders if Factor will ever be mainstream
04:33:29 <alise> #!/usr/bin/env bash
04:33:30 <alise> # Run with -r to start the REPL.
04:33:30 <alise> exec awk -f <(tail -n +4 "$0") "$@"
04:33:54 <Sgeo_> Is Factor installed on HackEgo?
04:34:04 <Sgeo_> `factor "Hello world" print
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04:34:44 <oerjan> Sgeo_: HackEgo isn't the one with many languages anyway. i don't think EgoBot has it either though
04:34:44 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.9067 \ wunderbar_emporium
04:35:06 <HackEgo> addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ fuck \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ penis \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runasperl \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ twat \ unstr \ url \ vagina \ wolfram
04:35:21 <HackEgo> I'm a program. I don't /have/ genitals.
04:35:25 <HackEgo> I'm a program. I don't /have/ genitals.
04:35:31 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "I'm a program. I don't /have/ genitals."
04:35:40 <HackEgo> I'm a program. I don't /have/ genitals.
04:36:05 <Sgeo_> Wasn't Gregor doing something or other manually?
04:37:38 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
04:37:46 <Sgeo_> Gregor, where'd you put the files?
04:39:41 <Sgeo_> `run locate factor
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04:40:57 <Sgeo_> `run echo "factor nonfactor > ."
04:41:37 <oerjan> cpressey: i'm pretty sure that false is an ordinary linux command, not an esolang
04:42:31 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
04:42:36 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
04:42:55 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
04:42:58 <pikhq> Hey, it's got dimensifuck in there. Never noticed.
04:43:03 <oerjan> no factor there either
04:43:03 <cpressey> that seems like more that iremember
04:43:09 <Sgeo_> Factor is not an esolang
04:43:26 <pikhq> Unfortunately, it's not Turing complete in one dimension.
04:43:47 <oerjan> pikhq: you can load from the web
04:43:48 <cpressey> false.c doesn't build on modern c compilers and it'd be a sizable task to fix it
04:43:53 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, I know.
04:44:01 <cpressey> and the original false is written in 680x0 asm
04:44:38 <cpressey> !yodawg the original false is written in 680x0 asm
04:45:16 <cpressey> !sffedeesh the original false is written in 680x0 asm
04:45:17 <EgoBot> zee ooreeginel felse-a is vreettee in 680x0 esm
04:45:29 <cpressey> !cockney the original false is written in 680x0 asm
04:45:30 <EgoBot> the bloody original false is written in 680x0 asm
04:45:55 <cpressey> !postmodern_aoler the original false is written in 680x0 asm
04:45:56 <EgoBot> TTED KENNEDY OR1GINAL FALSE IS SEMIOTICALLY WR1TTEN 1N TH3 PENETRATED 5PACE OF 680X0 A5M
04:46:11 <cpressey> THERE we go. NOW we're cookin' with gas.
04:46:33 * Sgeo_ cooks cpressey's goose
04:47:17 <pikhq> cpressey: Awesome.
04:47:33 <pikhq> !postmodern_aoler Now we're cookin' with gas.
04:47:34 <EgoBot> NOW WE"RE CUUK1N" W1TH GA5.
04:53:13 <oerjan> !cockney Use your brain
04:53:55 <Sgeo_> Well, there's a Factor bot running in another channel
05:00:39 <Sgeo_> It is _way_ too easy to make unreadable code in Factor
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06:50:20 <Vorpal> and.... bbl university
06:57:59 <oklopol> "<alise> let's just wham two galaxies with supermassive black holes in them together at near-lightspeed" <<< two galaxies will pass each other without any interaction, probably
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06:58:13 <oklopol> obviously you'll double light output anyway but
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07:02:32 <oklopol> i'd love to talk but i'm OFF TO THE *UNIVERSITY* NOW
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07:40:31 <EgoBot> Gforth 0.7.0, Copyright (C) 1995-2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
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09:28:22 <Deewiant> http://mamememo.blogspot.com/2010/09/qlobe.html
09:30:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: You are late with that.
09:31:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: (alise, I think, pasted that link at some point yesterday evening.)
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14:14:06 <nooga> http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/magazine/17-05/ff_kryptos?currentPage=all#
14:14:15 <nooga> another mission for #eso ppl? :F
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14:56:57 <ais523> ooh, anagolf now does FlogScript
14:57:20 <ais523> I wonder if zzo38 knows yet?
14:57:57 <Sgeo_> Does anagolf do Factor? Smalltalk?
15:05:09 <ais523> it does Smalltalk but not Factor
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15:05:21 <ais523> (Smalltalk's unlikely to win golfing competitions, though, it's a rather verbose language)
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15:24:30 <cpressey> are you thinking what i'm thinking, Sgeo?
15:25:12 <ais523> Sgeo: if you do not respond to that question with the stock answer, I will be annoyed
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15:25:41 <Sgeo> Sure brain, but how are we going to get a thousand egg rolls?
15:26:02 <Sgeo> [Also, didn't want tor espond like that because my nick was Brain, not Pinky]
15:26:17 <Sgeo> [Also, hopefully, by "Stock answer" you meant "Answer in the typical form"
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15:52:27 * ais523 submits another anagolf challenge
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16:11:36 <Vorpal> * ais523 submits another anagolf challenge
16:11:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there wasn't really very much else it could be a reply to
16:12:42 <ais523> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?C+style+constants
16:15:05 <Vorpal> ais523, not simple for befunge93, it doesn't have 98 sadly
16:16:10 <ais523> it's not /that/ tricky for -93
16:16:58 <Vorpal> ais523, hm there doesn't seem to be any pattern to exploit for a cheating solution
16:17:17 <ais523> there isn't meant to be one
16:17:31 <ais523> or at least, if there is one, exploiting it is probably longer than a genuine solution
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16:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Doing that in a Coid with an eval function seems too easy.
16:22:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, that's 40 bytes in Python without even trying.
16:23:54 <ais523> go for it, anagolf's all about finding those sorts of tricks
16:24:01 <ais523> I just did it in 22 bytes of shellscript
16:24:52 <ais523> see if you can get it below 10 in some lang, there's probably one that manages it
16:26:10 <ais523> submit it anyway if it works, you can always improve on it later
16:26:33 <ais523> the league tables only show each person's best submission for each lang
16:26:40 <ais523> and there's no penalty for a wrong submisison
16:30:32 <ais523> I completely /love/ anagolf's solution to PID abuse, btw
16:31:11 <ais523> basically, you can use the PID of your program as secret input
16:31:19 <ais523> and then keep running the program until you get the PID you want
16:31:29 <ais523> so instead of having to parse the input to find which run you're on, you just check the PID
16:31:42 <ais523> anagolf's solution to this is to allow people to just specify the PID so they don't have to brute-force it
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17:14:15 * ais523 solves the problem using m4
17:14:20 <ais523> because m4 ought to be used more often
17:14:35 <ais523> admittedly, it's rather esoteric m4; it's underquoted massively, due to being golfed
17:15:42 <ais523> here, I'll paste my solution so far; anyone see a way to improve this?:
17:15:50 <ais523> define(x,`ifelse(`$#',1,,`eval($1)
17:15:51 <ais523> x(shift($@))')')x(patsubst(include(/dev/fd/0),`
17:16:30 <ais523> wow, you can actually unquote the $# and it still works
17:17:06 <ais523> (I love the way you do input in m4, btw; the only method is via abusing include())
17:24:57 <ais523> yep, there's a timeout
17:25:13 <ais523> and entries submitted after the timeout aren't eligible for the leaderboard
17:25:16 <ais523> that way, there's a competition
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18:00:37 * pikhq says bork bork bork
18:03:30 <ais523> hmm, I'd like to put another esointerp problem up on anagolf
18:03:46 <ais523> but it's hard to a) find an esolang simple enough, and b) avoid cheating being used, somehow
18:04:48 <fizzie> ais523: Do you happen to know offhand if anagolf checks for trailing whitespace in the output?
18:06:04 <ais523> fizzie: it seems to not care about differences in a trailing newline, but does care about everything else
18:06:39 <fizzie> Hmm. Then the reference bef implementation must not be putting a space after . like it sort-of should.
18:07:09 <ais523> perhaps it doesn't check for trailing whitespace on a line
18:07:17 <ais523> hmm, easy enough to check with a hello world or something
18:07:37 <fizzie> It links to catseye.tc and mentions bef-2.21.zip.
18:07:49 <fizzie> (Made a quick'n'dirty b93 thing of your C-style constants; it's bigger than the Java one, the shame.)
18:08:27 <ais523> print "Hello, world! " is accepted as a hello world program
18:08:32 <ais523> so presumably it doesn't care about trailing whitespace
18:10:08 <ais523> wow, my bash was beaten; I thought it was pretty good
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18:22:23 * pikhq says "Koko ni ha minnna kà wakaranai ketò, yoku nihonnkò tè hanasu. Henn na koto tà ne?"
18:23:07 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the perfect triplet of root vegetables
18:24:00 <pikhq> (「ここには皆が分からないけど、よく日本語で話す。変なことだね？」 for those of who would like to use a translator!)
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18:26:08 <oerjan> "Swedes and Norwegians cook rutabagas with potatoes, sometimes with the addition of carrots for color, and mash them with butter and cream or milk to create a puree called "rotmos" (Swedish, literally: root mash) and "kålrabistappe" (Norwegian). Onion is occasionally added. In Norway, kålrabistappe is an obligatory accompaniment to many festive dishes, including smalahove, pinnekjøtt, raspeball and salted herring."
18:26:49 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm not sure whether that is disturbing or delicious.
18:27:29 <oerjan> well the puree anyhow, i wouldn't go anywhere near smalahove
18:27:57 <oerjan> and while i like pinnekjøtt, it might be an acquired taste
18:28:51 <pikhq> Quite probably delicious.
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18:29:34 <oerjan> it's quite salty and dry though
18:30:15 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, "Although not everyone understands it, Japanese is often spoken/written. Isn't that strange?"
18:30:36 * ais523 does "C style constants" in Perl using nothing but letters and spaces
18:30:55 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: "Although everyone doesn't understand it, I often speak Japanese. Isn't that strange?" would be a better translation.
18:31:16 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Though that is actually quite valid itself if you don't account for context.
18:31:28 <fizzie> pikhq: No, I think I like Google's "I know everyone here, speak Japanese well. It's funny that?" better.
18:32:30 <pikhq> fizzie: Ah, yes. Because "yoku" also can be the adverbial form of "ii" (good)...
18:32:32 <ais523> I like the way anagolf can actually verify "alphanumeric only" and "no alphanumerics" claims
18:32:43 <pikhq> And... "I know everyone here" What?
18:32:45 <ais523> although there are no numbers in my submission there either
18:33:04 <fizzie> pikhq: 55 people on board, it's pretty impressive that you know everyone.
18:33:23 <pikhq> That's not even *close* to what the Japanese says.
18:35:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Correct answer.
18:36:10 <fizzie> It's not insane, it's statistics. Can't argue with statistics.
18:36:28 <pikhq> fizzie: Yup. And that is why Torino is a synonym for London.
18:36:48 <oerjan> "The International Rutabaga Curling Championship takes place annually at the Ithaca Farmers' Market on the last day of the market season."
18:37:36 <fizzie> We have this EU-funded Finnish-Japanese speech-to-speech with cross-lingual voice characteristics adaptation project (i.e. you speak it Finnish, out comes the same thing in Japanes *but as if you yourself were speaking it*); now *that's* insane.
18:38:04 <fizzie> It doesn't work, of course.
18:39:10 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i think swedes may object to being turned into puree.
18:39:34 <pikhq> fizzie: Best two languages for it.
18:39:45 <pikhq> After all, Finnish and Japanese are *clearly* related.
18:40:40 <fizzie> Perhaps they just wanted to add a bit of challenge, to make it, you know, a less trivial task.
18:44:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I just got back home. What are you talking about?
18:46:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: They're going to PUREE you.
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18:49:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wouldn't like that obviously
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19:11:36 <ais523> I could save three characters in the sed program if the time limit were higher; they're there just to make things more efficient
19:12:25 <ais523> make that two characters
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19:13:50 <impomatic> Is that Keymaker's quine in the topic?
19:18:26 <cpressey> can you have an algebraic structure which has an identity element and inervses, but is not associative? wait of course you can, I think... matrices?
19:19:49 <oerjan> matrices are associative
19:20:45 <cpressey> i always thought they were the classic counterexample
19:21:09 <oerjan> that would be to commutativity, probably
19:24:04 <cpressey> "The associative property states that the order in which operations are performed does not affect the final result as long as the order of terms is not changed. In contrast, the commutative property states that the order of the terms does not affect the final result." -- WP.
19:24:12 <cpressey> does that mean commutative implies associative?
19:24:45 <oerjan> octonions look like they might be a near example of what you want
19:25:13 <oerjan> their neither commutative nor associative, but they have identity and every non-zero element has an inverse
19:26:17 <oerjan> oh and 0 is not a multiple of anything else, so you can just remove it
19:26:20 <cpressey> any canonical examples of anything that's commutative but *not* associative, btw
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19:29:08 <cpressey> actually i don't have all the details on what i am working on (the apply / ylppa thing i was talking about with alise yesterday), i need to sit down and write it up before i'll really know what i'm dealing with
19:29:09 <oerjan> would you know there's a wikipedia article _specifically_ for that :D
19:29:16 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example_of_a_commutative_non-associative_magma
19:30:56 * ais523 attempts to golf an infinite loop in no-alphanumerics Perl
19:31:18 <ais523> the best I managed was the rather bizarre [$~..$]]
19:33:34 <ais523> oh, $], how you are loved by golfers
19:34:35 <ais523> it's not actually an infinite loop, just a very long one
19:34:41 <ais523> go go Perl busy beavers!
19:46:01 <fizzie> ais523: Uh... how does that work, exactly? I mean, if I perl -e 'use Data::Dumper; $thing = [$~..$]]; print join(" ", @$thing), "\n";' I get what I sort-of expected, "0 1 2 3 4 5"; but without the "use Data::Dumper;" bit (that I added to take a look of [$~] and [$]] separately) it indeed seems to be a very busy bit of code.
19:46:35 <ais523> let's see... $~ contains the name of the current filehandle format
19:46:47 <ais523> by default, the current filehandle is STDOUT, and the default format name is the handle name
19:46:55 <ais523> so $~ == "STDOUT" at that point in the code
19:47:09 <ais523> and $] is the version number, that's 7 characters long in this situation
19:47:23 <ais523> now, what .. does when the left arg is alphabetical is to count it upwards as a base-26 number
19:47:33 <ais523> e.g. STDOUT, STDOUU, STDOUV, etc
19:47:42 <fizzie> *Oh*. Yes, I see; I didn't quite know it did that.
19:47:54 <ais523> and if the right arg isn't alphabetical (the version number isn't), then it continues until it reaches a longer string than the right arg, AAAAAAAA
19:47:56 <ais523> this is going to take it a while
19:48:10 <ais523> (actually, that's not quite base-26, but you know what I mean)
19:48:42 <ais523> then the outside pair of square brackets put it into list context
19:48:50 <fizzie> How come it doesn't happen if I "use Data::Dumper", then? It doesn't change the values of $~ and $] at all, at least according to printing them out.
19:49:59 <ais523> it == "STDOUT" too, bu that's kind of pointless
19:51:13 <fizzie> Perl is sometimes a bit obscure.
19:52:26 <cpressey> *X ne [[X]] and pretend those are "semantics brackets"
19:52:53 <ais523> cpressey: well, $~ is defined to be the /name/ of the current filehandle format, not the format itself
19:52:59 <ais523> thus it exactly equals the string in question
19:53:22 <cpressey> ok, maybe i don't remember what prefix * means well enough
19:53:45 <cpressey> it alone is pretty "arg, ew"-y
19:53:53 * ais523 vaguely wonders why 99-bottles-of-beer.net has a "privacy" option, and why it just lists some guy's name and email address
19:54:01 <ais523> cpressey: oh, the * was a correction asterisk
19:54:16 <ais523> *$~ is, by default, the collection of all variables named STDOUT
19:54:24 <ais523> which I agree isn't equal to the string STDOUT itself
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19:59:42 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/perl-weird-1 -- I don't quite know why, but it looks as if "use Data::Dumper;" makes $] not a string.
20:00:45 <fizzie> (Also, .. seems to iterate strings only if both sides are strings. $a=$]+0; ["STDOUT"..$]]; never hangs.
20:00:55 <ais523> hmm, maybe it's doing a check for the version, and somehow casting the version to a number when it does?
20:02:48 <fizzie> Well, it has a "use 5.006_001;" in the Dumper.pm module. I don't think that *should* cause observable changes outside the module, but I guess it might.
20:03:27 * ais523 loves the way that the first reviews of the Malbolge 99bob that actually contained a loop concluded it was probably genuine on the basis that it was less than twice as long as its output
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20:23:20 <ais523> I explained it a bit earlier
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20:35:35 <Hiant> Are there any IDE's for Bitwise Cyclic Tag?
20:37:46 <oerjan> the refactoring menus of that must be something to behold...
20:39:34 * oerjan wonders if the above comment makes it obvious to everyone that he has never used an IDE
20:43:32 <Hiant> Hmmm, the general silence has provided me with an answer.
20:43:53 <ais523> most esolangs don't have IDEs
20:43:59 <ais523> although there's intercal-mode for Emacs
20:44:45 <Slereah> The best language there is.
20:45:05 <Slereah> (Also Brainfuck has a bunch of IDE)
20:46:02 <Hiant> Slereah: Yes, I am aware of that. I was mostly curious if one existed, and if so, what it looked like.
20:47:41 <Hiant> oerjan: Have you ever read Ms Paint Adventures?
20:49:18 <ais523> discuss: if a C compiler does not allow you to pass _Bools via varargs, is it broken?
20:50:11 <pikhq> varargs is standard C, so yes.
20:50:38 <ais523> except that the C standard states that varargs only has to deal with default-argument-promoted types
20:50:41 <ais523> and _Bool isn't one of them
20:50:56 <ais523> gcc compiles va_arg(x, _Bool) into an illegal instruction atm, along with a mandatory warning
20:51:14 <cpressey> i refuse to acknowledge the presence of bools in C, so... no
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20:52:37 <pikhq> Hrm. Sure enough, that's undefined behavior.
20:52:49 <pikhq> Okay then, not broken.
20:53:06 <cpressey> the world clearly needs more eso-IDEs (and eso-download managers)
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21:02:46 <ais523> reads arguments from a variable-length argument list
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21:19:23 <cpressey> Slereah: alise tells me you have access to the source code of a^Wthe Plain English compiler, and that it is AWESOME.
21:21:18 <oerjan> the AW Plain English compiler
21:21:31 <Slereah> I do have the plain english compiler
21:21:38 <Slereah> It is a horrible little thing.
21:24:00 <Slereah> I think it's somewhere on my website
21:24:29 <Slereah> http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Russell/cal-3037.rar
21:26:44 <olsner> ah, raumpatrouille orion, I like it :>
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21:28:07 <Slereah> My favorite part is the "noodle"
21:28:17 <Slereah> It's the basic library of the language
21:29:00 <Slereah> Despite its claims of being all plain english without no fancy computer things
21:29:09 <Slereah> Inside it, there's a giant hexadecimal line
21:29:50 <Slereah> to put a byte into a wyrd:
21:29:50 <Slereah> intel $8B8508000000. \ mov eax,[ebp+8] \ the byte
21:30:11 <Slereah> But it has to, because one of its claim is that it can self compile.
21:30:21 <Slereah> And it does it in MACHINE CODE
21:30:35 <Slereah> And I guess they thought nobody would check.
21:31:05 <ais523> self-hosting but with inline machine code
21:31:22 <cpressey> self-hosting with inline machine code -- just like Shelta!
21:31:53 <Slereah> It is a fucked up little thing.
21:31:54 <cpressey> what disturbs me about this is, at one point, they had to bootstrap it...
21:32:11 <cpressey> i'm going to assume they just hand assembled the initial machine code
21:32:24 <Slereah> They don't want to touch some C
21:33:39 <Slereah> The current website is less funny than the old one :(
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21:42:01 <cpressey> So I'm starting to accumulate a distinct set of languages that, despite them wanting me to take them seriously, make me laugh: Falcon, Ursala, and Plain English. BancSTAR might also qualify. This is almost enough to make a list.
21:42:49 <ais523> I don't know of Falcon
21:43:19 <cpressey> Falcon has its own definitions of functional programming and of monads.
21:43:55 <pikhq> Slereah: That is significantly less funny.
21:44:24 <Slereah> "What would great personalities say about Plain English if they knew of it"
21:44:41 <cpressey> According to their website, Python and Ruby do not support "true" functional programming, but Falcon does. And it implements monads by setting an invisible bit that's present on every value, and having builtin functions like map react differently when they see that bit.
21:45:08 <cpressey> (Still trying to figure that one out. Ask Phantom_Hoover if you need more details.)
21:45:26 <Slereah> http://web.archive.org/web/20100907204452/http://www.osmosian.com/page04.png
21:45:47 <Slereah> Esolang or just plain lang?
21:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, take all of the languages and throw them at each other,
21:45:52 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: are they actually monads, implemented in an insane manner? or something that's called a monad but isn't?
21:46:03 <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : I already tried that
21:46:10 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp
21:46:28 <ais523> btw, I just ported C-INTERCAL to clang, as a portability check
21:46:31 <pikhq> Slereah: The manifesto is just as funny as it was.
21:46:50 <Slereah> But the manual is the best <3
21:47:00 <cpressey> I dunno, oerjan said he thought about adding monads to (Unlambda, was it?) in a way that sounded weirdly like what Falcon does...
21:47:10 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: ah, OK
21:47:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Falcon's type system is nowhere near expressive enough.
21:47:20 <cpressey> At best, they are whacky eso-monads.
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21:48:46 <Phantom_Hoover> But they were planning to do it by adding some bookkeeping information to a value and then tagging it, which is a completely insane way of implementing monady things.
21:50:23 <cpressey> Slereah: whoa, alise told me about that "ad" too... that's... wow
21:50:40 <Slereah> I just noticed that the picture had a "quote" from Leopol Kronecker
21:51:02 <Slereah> Very fitting, because I always felt Kronecker was a douche with weird expectations about what math should be
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21:58:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I was thinking about a graph-based language in which all graphs have to be planar.
21:59:25 <cpressey> The least well-defined problem ever.
21:59:50 <cpressey> "Writing a Plain English compiler" is a better contender for stupidest.
22:00:14 <cpressey> Slereah: It means you can put the graph on a plane, and none of the edges cross
22:00:44 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, what is your idea?
22:01:14 <Slereah> I seem to recall that you can simulate a game of life with a planar graph
22:01:37 <Phantom_Hoover> But there are TC CAs with planar graphs, so it's irrelevant.
22:01:37 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Who are you "no"ing?
22:02:38 <cpressey> istr 110's isn't planar, but whatever
22:03:43 <Slereah> When you say 'the corner cross'
22:03:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It had something to do with networked communication betwixt non-adjacent nodes, though.
22:05:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It has memed its way into my head from Wikipedia's page on lame edit wars.
22:07:15 -!- comex has changed nick to TheProtomotor.
22:07:39 <cpressey> it's weird when you hear it in a pop song
22:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, the crossing in the Moore neighbourhood is because the diagonals of the squares cross.
22:10:29 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:11:34 <Phantom_Hoover> (Ask me about oerjan's neat proof that you can't have Life on a sphere)
22:14:17 * oerjan cackles evilly in B flat
22:14:53 <cpressey> Now, if you want to cover the *whole* sphere with Life, that may be a different matter
22:15:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, more generally, you can't put the Moore neighbourhood on a sphere.
22:16:03 <oerjan> hm that _is_ a point... you could put life on a sphere if you made the grid infinite
22:16:35 <cpressey> Er what? It's like you both missed what I thought was the obvious hole I was exploiting
22:17:04 <oerjan> cpressey: unstated assumption is you have no border cells
22:17:15 <Slereah> You could make a Life-like automaton on a sphere, I guess
22:17:23 <Slereah> I wonder if it has been made
22:18:28 <oerjan> hm wait an infinite grid would have to miss the convergence point, it couldn't be a covering by cells, just dense
22:18:28 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if oerjan's proof holds for all tilings of a sphere
22:19:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm almost certain it does, but I could be missing something
22:19:27 <cpressey> oerjan: Is the actual proof short? I can see why you can't map it to a sphere, but I can't put it into words
22:19:47 <cpressey> k, not something I'm familiar with
22:19:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: anything infinite would cause infinity - infinity ambiguity, i'd think
22:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, faces + vertices - edges = Euler characteristic
22:20:19 <cpressey> oerjan: I know I've seen a paper trying to extend CA results to "infinitely small cells"
22:20:57 <Phantom_Hoover> The EC of the Moore neighbourhood is 0, so it can only fit on surfaces with EC 0.
22:21:05 <Slereah> Also an infinite sphere would basically be flat for all purposes.
22:21:34 * Phantom_Hoover suspects that an infinite sphere is topologically a plane in all senses.
22:21:54 <oerjan> ...define infinite sphere
22:22:10 <cpressey> diameter is infinity. obviously
22:22:39 <Slereah> Yeah, it is basically a plane.
22:23:00 <Slereah> To reach a region that would make a difference, you'd have to travel an infinite distance.
22:23:05 <oerjan> adding a single point of infinity to a plane gives a topological sphere
22:24:18 <oerjan> in reverse, removing a single point from a sphere gives a topological plane
22:24:43 <oerjan> adding an infinite line
22:25:16 <oerjan> also, you can get the projective plane by identifying the antipodes on a sphere
22:25:34 <Slereah> Topology is rather a nightmare.
22:25:52 <cpressey> <oerjan> in reverse, removing a single point from a sphere gives a topological plane
22:26:21 <cpressey> i like the nightmare that is topology
22:26:23 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, makes sense if you remove the Common Sense Particle.
22:26:48 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I played that game, yes
22:26:51 <olsner> topology seems properly mindbending, I should learn me some topology some time
22:27:22 <cpressey> so, is the topological plane not infinite, or is the topological sphere infinite? guessing the latter
22:27:35 <cpressey> or that the concept doesn't apply
22:27:41 <oerjan> infinity matters not for topology
22:28:40 <cpressey> although a large part of me is screaming, silently, right now, i have to admit
22:28:43 <oerjan> or rather, topology needs not preserve distance
22:28:53 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, what are the topological definitions for the sphere and plane?
22:29:14 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: anything homeomorphic to the usual sphere and plane...
22:29:55 <oerjan> homeomorphic means you have a map between them which is a bijection, continuous, and whose inverse is continuous
22:31:37 <cpressey> can i abuse how "continuous" is defined?
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22:32:07 <oerjan> continuous means: the inverse map of an open set is open
22:32:53 <cpressey> well, i might have to come up with an unorthodox way of defining open sets, then
22:33:13 <oerjan> sure, as long as they satisfy the necessary axioms
22:33:37 <pikhq> You know something that really upsets me?
22:33:44 <oerjan> (finite intersections and arbitrary unions of open sets are open)
22:34:00 <pikhq> In many states of the US, a felony conviction can result in permanent disenfranchisement.
22:35:25 <fizzie> "Invited Talk: Graphical models in Microsoft's online services: TrueSkill, AdPredictor, and Matchbox; Thore Graepel (Microsoft Research)"; I wonder if it's from the same place Gregor is nowadays.
22:35:32 <Phantom_Hoover> That's a bit more upsetting than people with annoying faces, I must say.
22:35:54 <cpressey> fizzie: I believe his internship is over
22:35:58 <pikhq> (fortunately, in the *majority* of states, one is only disenfranchised while serving the sentence in some fashion (depends on state, but may be either: while in jail; while in jail or on parole; or while in jail, on parole, or on probation)
22:36:31 <pikhq> fizzie: Also, I don't *think* he was interning at Microsoft Research.
22:36:39 <cpressey> pikhq: I'm pretty sure he was?
22:36:49 <fizzie> cpressey: Maybe that's just what he *says*. Also, implants subconscious mind control brain-washing conspiracies.
22:36:55 <cpressey> Sorry, annoying correction-question-mark.
22:36:58 <pikhq> (not that I'd blame him if he were; MS Research is the branch of Microsoft that's genuinely good and worthwhile. :P)
22:37:29 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Unconditionally, Kentucky and Virginia.
22:37:56 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Conditionally, Alabama, Arizona, Deleware, Florida, Mississipi, Nevada, Tennesee, Wyoming.
22:37:58 <fizzie> He said he was at MSR; but upon further clickery, our invited speaker comes from MSR's Cambridge lab, so I guess it's pretty unlikely they know each other.
22:38:05 <pikhq> Only 10 states, but that's 10 states too many.
22:39:07 <pikhq> Probably something along the lines of "Hard on crime: DONT LET THE EVIL PEOPLE DECIDE!!!!"
22:40:33 <pikhq> Of course, if you really want to vote after getting out of jail, one could simply... Move.
22:41:30 <oerjan> apparently in norway you can now only be disenfranchised for treason or election fraud
22:41:57 <oerjan> neither of which are particularly common afaik
22:42:17 <pikhq> I'd say disenfranchisement while in jail would maybe be acceptable... If jail terms in the US were at all reasonable.
22:42:59 <pikhq> ... And incarceration rates, really.
22:43:13 <cpressey> I have no problem with disenfranchisement while incarcerated. Much bigger problem with why you can be incarcerated, yeah.
22:43:59 <pikhq> As it is, we've got a bit over 1% of the population in jail at any one time.
22:45:19 <pikhq> It gets even more absurd when you count probation and parole.
22:45:54 <pikhq> Some 32% of the population is in jail, on probation, or on parole at any one time.
22:46:06 <pikhq> *Thirty. Two. Percent.*
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22:47:04 <pikhq> Erm, sorry, I fucked up the percent calculation a lot.
22:47:11 <pikhq> No wonder it was motherfucking ridiculous.
22:47:41 <pikhq> That's... Still fucking ridiculous.
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22:56:41 <alise> 06:56:57 <ais523> ooh, anagolf now does FlogScript
22:56:42 <alise> 06:57:20 <ais523> I wonder if zzo38 knows yet?
22:57:46 <ais523> looks like my sed, Haskell, and m4 is still on top of the leaderboard for the anagolf puzzle I set
22:58:15 <ais523> the sed uses exec, but the sedness really helps
22:58:34 <ais523> and the haskell is just a pain, because unlike most langs there it doesn't have a builtin way to parse C-style constants
22:59:36 <alise> 08:31:42 <ais523> anagolf's solution to this is to allow people to just specify the PID so they don't have to brute-force it
22:59:42 <alise> does the pid count to code size? :P
23:00:00 <alise> how do you set it?
23:00:18 <ais523> there's a separate page for setting the next pid to be used by the server
23:00:22 <alise> ah http://golf.shinh.org/setpid.html
23:00:28 <ais523> and then you submit your code just afterwards
23:00:39 <alise> still, i don't like it much
23:00:41 -!- cpressey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:00:47 <ais523> heh, fizzie's Befunge beats the best C# entry
23:00:51 <alise> ais523: has the number of cheat programs decreased since last time?
23:01:02 <ais523> I'm not sure; the problem I just submitted is probably immune to cheat programs
23:01:07 <ais523> because legit solutions are so much shorter
23:01:16 <alise> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Sokoban *someone's* trying to cheat at NetHack!
23:01:46 <alise> all the programs are cheats
23:01:51 <alise> and don't even say so
23:02:09 <ais523> alise: none of the programs are cheats
23:02:23 <alise> you can't solve ascii sokoban in 6 characters of golfscript
23:02:27 <alise> or 8 characters of sed
23:02:38 <ais523> and the reason is, that the problem's asking for what the final state is
23:02:44 <alise> but it says *solve* them
23:02:49 <ais523> and there is a very simple algo for working out that
23:03:18 <ais523> actually solving those puzzles would lead to timeout, btw; Sokoban's NP-hard, and those puzzles are large enough that a generic solver wouldn't do it in 3 seconds
23:03:35 <fizzie> ais523: There's some empty space in the middle of the program, it should be simple-ish to cut it down a bit smaller, but maybe not so easily down to the Java entry size. It doesn't exactly have built-in way to parse C-like constants either.
23:03:38 <alise> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Hangul+resyllabification haha oh boy
23:04:01 <alise> all the entries are cheats, I think
23:04:37 <ais523> I doubt it, they're too small to just contain a copy of the output
23:04:43 <ais523> and it's not a massively hard problem, by the look of it
23:04:57 <alise> ais523: challenge idea: "ASCII to EBCDIC" (or the other way around) without using any built-in conversion functions
23:04:57 <ais523> it's basically "move a consonant from the end of one syllable to the start of the next if it starts with a vowel"
23:05:11 <alise> ofc, people will likely just ignore the latter
23:05:15 <ais523> and the only reason that looks difficult is that it's in Korean
23:05:18 <alise> still, it seems the situation has improved
23:05:55 <ais523> people are getting better at writing more robust challenges
23:06:03 <ais523> three testcases is not the way to do things; rather, a thousand is
23:06:11 <ais523> that way, a genuine solution may be shorter than a cheat solution
23:06:40 <alise> I still think the culture needs improving.
23:06:48 <alise> If they can cheat nobody thinks not to.
23:06:59 <ais523> you just make a new challenge, that's more secure
23:07:10 <ais523> my C-style constants challenge was pretty much intended to see creative cheat-style solutions
23:08:08 <alise> wow, the solutions to parts 1-3 of Kryptos are cool
23:08:15 <alise> BETWEEN SUBTLE SHADING AND THE ABSENCE OF LIGHT LIES THE NUANCE OF IQLUSION //
23:08:18 <alise> IT WAS TOTALLY INVISIBLE HOWS THAT POSSIBLE ? THEY USED THE EARTHS MAGNETIC FIELD X THE INFORMATION WAS GATHERED AND TRANSMITTED UNDERGRUUND TO AN UNKNOWN LOCATION X DOES LANGLEY KNOW ABOUT THIS ? THEY SHOULD ITS BURIED OUT THERE SOMEWHERE X WHO KNOWS THE EXACT LOCATION ? ONLY WW THIS WAS HIS LAST MESSAGE X THIRTY EIGHT DEGREES FIFTY SEVEN MINUTES SIX POINT FIVE SECONDS NORTH SEVENTY SEVEN DEGREES EIGHT MINUTES FORTY FOUR SECONDS WEST X LAYER TWO //
23:08:19 <alise> SLOWLY DESPARATLY SLOWLY THE REMAINS OF PASSAGE DEBRIS THAT ENCUMBERED THE LOWER PART OF THE DOORWAY WAS REMOVED WITH TREMBLING HANDS I MADE A TINY BREACH IN THE UPPER LEFT HAND CORNER AND THEN WIDENING THE HOLE A LITTLE I INSERTED THE CANDLE AND PEERED IN THE HOT AIR ESCAPING FROM THE CHAMBER CAUSED THE FLAME TO FLICKER BUT PRESENTLY DETAILS OF THE ROOM WITHIN EMERGED FROM THE MIST X CAN YOU SEE ANYTHING Q
23:08:37 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:08:42 <cpressey> os.removedirs('/home/cpressey/build/lua-5.1.2')
23:08:52 <alise> I think I made ais523 quit.
23:08:54 <cpressey> that would happily remove my home dir if it could
23:09:23 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:09:32 <alise> cpressey: so would rm -r
23:09:54 <cpressey> rm -r /home/cpressey/build/lua-5.1.2 ? no it wouldn't
23:10:11 <alise> why would it remove ~
23:10:22 <cpressey> i'm merely commenting that os.removedirs is kind of silly
23:10:26 <fizzie> os.removedirs() removes any leftover empty directories up to the topmost.
23:10:32 <cpressey> but this is Python so that goes without saying
23:10:52 <fizzie> It *is* a bit of silly, right. It would also remove /home if everything would be empty there.
23:11:16 <fizzie> And it wouldn't be an active mountpoint and so on, but anyway.
23:16:37 <fizzie> cpressey: Actually, it loops in a "while head and tail:", tries to rmdir head, then does "head, tail = path.split(head)"; and path.split splits "/home" into head:"/", tail:"home"; so it'll run rmdir("/") too. That's... not very likely to succeed. But it would be nice if it did.
23:18:20 <cpressey> fizzie: Going by the docs (oh -- now *I'm* the one that's being silly!), that's what I figured.
23:28:12 <alise> 20:45:55 <cpressey> !postmodern_aoler the original false is written in 680x0 asm
23:28:12 <alise> 20:45:56 <EgoBot> TTED KENNEDY OR1GINAL FALSE IS SEMIOTICALLY WR1TTEN 1N TH3 PENETRATED 5PACE OF 680X0 A5M
23:28:12 <alise> 20:46:11 <cpressey> THERE we go. NOW we're cookin' with gas.
23:28:21 <alise> It's just postmodern + aoler filters from the same program.
23:29:50 <cpressey> alise: IT RAWK5 (HERMEN3UTICALLY SPEAK1NG)
23:30:07 <alise> !postmodern_aoler I will hack you.
23:30:30 <alise> !postmodern_aoler I will semiotically postbioticising harfulate your dgfojdfg.
23:30:31 <EgoBot> 1 WILL 5EMIOT1CALLY POSTB1OTICI51NG HARFULAT3 YOU'RE DGFOJDFG.
23:30:41 <Gregor> <fizzie> "Invited Talk: Graphical models in Microsoft's online services: TrueSkill, AdPredictor, and Matchbox; Thore Graepel (Microsoft Research)"; I wonder if it's from the same place Gregor is nowadays. // I isn't nowadays
23:32:39 <cpressey> btw, is yodawg an actual interpreter of some sort
23:34:44 <oerjan> !yodawg ````````````.H.e.l.l.o. .w.o.r.l.dri
23:36:07 <cpressey> Unless someone hid it under "image talk" maybe
23:36:11 <oerjan> yodawg is a meme reference, not the name of the language
23:37:23 <cpressey> oerjan: ... one certainly doesn't preclude the other
23:37:54 <oerjan> indeed. but in this case it is one and not the other.
23:39:49 <cpressey> So, uh. What is the name of this language?
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23:41:02 <cpressey> is it fair to say that yodawg is an unlambda interpreter?
23:41:35 <Slereah> Either that or a Lazy Bird one~
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23:41:55 <cpressey> "no, the unlambda interpreter is named Sir Charles. yodawg is the just the passcode that lets you run it."
23:42:43 <oerjan> i don't particularly recall giving the unlambda interpreter a specific name
23:44:27 <oerjan> i don't particularly recall being drunk when i coded that. also, it's old.
23:45:44 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, so you were *so* drunk you've lost your memory of it.
23:48:26 <alise> cpressey: it's a self-interpreter
23:48:49 <oerjan> alise: you dirty snitch you
23:49:01 <alise> i felt sorry for the poor fellow
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23:59:20 <cpressey> I should learn to code in unlambda someday
23:59:45 <olsner> you can learn to generate unlambda code
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00:00:47 <Slereah> I tried coding in unlambda once
00:01:18 <Slereah> Then I just said fuck it and wrote a new language
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00:01:24 <Slereah> And such is the story of Lazy Bird.
00:02:06 <oerjan> you got lazy and gave unlambda the bird
00:02:30 <olsner> in summary, unlambda is just another comninatory logic language
00:03:05 <Slereah> I didn't understand all that d and eager interpretation
00:03:14 <Slereah> Well, "just another" is a strange way to put it
00:03:24 <Slereah> It is the one most people think about.
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00:04:14 <Slereah> It's like saying brainfuck is just another brainfuck clone
00:05:50 <olsner> a bit... but probably more like saying brainfuck is just another P'' clone
00:06:48 <Slereah> INTERCAL is just another esolang~
00:07:36 <Slereah> I think the most awesome thing about INTERCAL is that it was written on punchcards
00:07:45 <cpressey> turing machines are just another turing machine
00:08:00 <oerjan> recursion is just another recursion
00:08:00 <Slereah> Actually, Turing machines are just another Post machine
00:18:52 <alise> Slereah is just another Slereah
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00:37:40 <alise> death on a death stick
00:40:00 <Sgeo> Faith healing makes Baby Hyppocrates cry.
00:40:29 * Sgeo bibbles at that supposed to be Hippocrates
00:40:44 <Slereah> Hippocrates wasn't a paragon of science, either
00:40:52 <augur> hyppocrates is hypocritical hippocrates, obviously.
00:41:06 <Slereah> But well, it was a few milleuniums ago, so I'll let it slide
00:41:38 <Slereah> Back then people were big on things being true just because it's a nice idea.
00:41:49 <alise> stop saying bibbles
00:45:14 <alise> 14:04:45 <olsner> betwixt?
00:45:14 <alise> 14:07:39 <cpressey> it's weird when you hear it in a pop song
00:45:20 <olsner> bibble bobble blubble blebble
00:45:34 <alise> "OH BABY I WANNA BE BETWIXT YOU AND ANOTHER FEMALE"
00:45:46 <olsner> betwixt is weird enough in day-to-day conversation, but even weirder in a pop song
00:47:26 <olsner> oh, and it's way past bedtime
00:49:47 <alise> 14:20:19 <cpressey> oerjan: I know I've seen a paper trying to extend CA results to "infinitely small cells"
00:49:52 <alise> a continuous discrete automation, you might say
00:51:18 <Slereah> Is it above Turing completeness?
00:52:40 <Slereah> It sounds like the kind of thing that might be.
00:52:58 <augur> it almost certainly isnt.
00:53:05 <alise> 14:51:02 <oklofok> hard-on crime
00:53:23 <augur> oklofok: can i commit a hard-on crime against you
00:54:08 <Slereah> Two things told me it might be
00:54:20 <Slereah> And 2) you can't actually program it
00:54:22 <augur> well for one, such things are usually calculable with differential equations
00:54:30 <augur> infact, you have to define it using differential equations, do.
00:54:47 <Slereah> You could activate a non-measurable set of cells
00:54:49 <augur> well if you define it some other way, you've still defined it
00:55:08 <Slereah> Just because you can define it doesn't mean you can compute it!
00:55:22 <augur> if you can define the computational mechanism i think it does
00:55:22 <Slereah> Of course, it might not be, but well
00:55:38 <Slereah> There's many computational mechanisms that are >TC
00:55:46 <Slereah> They just can't be built or emulated
00:56:03 <augur> i think in this case you can both define the thing and calculate its behavior
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00:56:59 <Slereah> I guess I'd have to see the article to know
01:02:33 <coppro> ugh... I should go out, but I'm so tired...
01:02:44 <coppro> oh well. sardines in the upper reaches of the math building should be fun
01:07:06 <alise> sardines are NEVER FUN
01:07:45 <coppro> it's a 10 minute walk and it starts in 8 minutes
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02:28:01 <Hiant> Hello everyone, I have come here for some suggestions about this esolang I have been creating. link: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/OTOH
02:28:03 <Hiant> I am curious as to whether adding a clone command, aka copies the value of one hand into another (non-destructively) would render the language too easy to use, rendering it a "bad" esolang.
02:34:39 <pikhq> Fucking motherfucking FUCK YOU SCIFI CHANNEL
02:35:05 <pikhq> "SyFy Channel teaming up with Billy Ray Cyrus for a new show where he investigates UFOs."
02:37:14 <Hiant> Why would they do that?
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03:02:36 <Slereah> But turing tarpit ? esolang :o
03:02:57 <wareya_> turing tarpit implies esoteric, but esoteric does not imply turing tarpit
03:03:24 <Slereah> True, but the most popular ones are the tarpit.
03:05:06 <Slereah> At least if we were #tarpit, we wouldn't get so many wouldbe magicians :3
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03:26:14 <Gregor> Slereah: No, but we'd get tar-fetishists.
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04:20:31 <Sgeo> Erm, have you ever been here before?
04:20:56 <Sgeo> Just to be sure: What do you think this channel is about?
04:21:01 <Sgeo> No offense, and you are welcome here
04:21:11 <Sgeo> It's just that some people come here with an incorrect idea
04:23:33 <lament> this channel is about worshipping Isis
04:24:35 <perdito> what are esoteric programming languages?
04:24:59 <coppro> perdito: Programming languages with little practical use, like INTERCAL
04:26:28 <coppro> in practice, we discuess a lot of random stuff in here
04:26:45 <coppro> about 40% of the time, it's related to computer science
04:26:56 <coppro> about 50% of the time, it's related to other computer stuff
04:27:00 <coppro> and most of the rest is politics
04:27:45 <perdito> i hope you'll excuse my poor english then.. but i'd like to stay and listen for a while
04:28:25 <pikhq> perdito: Your English doesn't seem poor to me.
04:28:39 <coppro> oh yes, I forgot about linguistics
04:28:44 <coppro> that's like 10% all on its own
04:28:47 <pikhq> Of course, that may just be the brutal assault that Japanese has had on my senses of bad English. :P
04:29:07 <coppro> other than the Internet grammar, it seems fine
04:29:17 <perdito> thx pikhq, but i think you'll change your mind soon enough
04:29:23 <coppro> and yours isn't particularly bad, perdito
04:29:38 <pikhq> perdito: Believe me, I've seen worse. From native speakers of English.
04:29:51 <coppro> I've read high school essays
04:30:15 <coppro> (Your English is better than that of the typical high school essay, believe it or not)
04:31:11 <perdito> k.. so most of you are programmers or sth?
04:31:13 <pikhq> Oh, definitely. The only things that differ from "correct" are just common traits of — what I shall now call — Internet Vernacular English.
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04:31:26 <pikhq> perdito: Pretty much all programmers here.
04:31:49 <pikhq> Not necessarily in a professional capacity, though.
04:32:46 <pikhq> Some of us are students, others are just people in different fields that enjoy bizarre programs. And then there's fungot.
04:32:47 <fungot> pikhq: right out right outside of philadelphia yeah so am i
04:33:23 <Sgeo> Scott Meyer is trying to kill me
04:34:04 <Sgeo> If laughter can be fatal...
04:34:09 <Sgeo> http://basicinstructions.net/
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05:07:14 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if there's any languages that have the sort of libraries Factor has
05:07:37 <Sgeo> Factor has Erlang-style concurrency, some parser thing, call/cc
05:07:43 <Sgeo> Um, a lot of other stuff
05:23:27 * pikhq types in 変なコマーシャル (strange commercial) into Youtube to see what comes up
05:24:32 <pikhq> Yeah, that was pretty weird.
05:24:35 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1jKAp9KEUs
05:24:41 <pikhq> Understanding it doesn't help.
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08:36:57 <fizzie> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?C+style+constants -- ha, Befunge is objectively a better language than Java.
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09:40:37 <oerjan> <pikhq> "SyFy Channel teaming up with Billy Ray Cyrus for a new show where he investigates UFOs."
09:40:47 <oerjan> perfectly good science fiction, that...
09:42:59 <fizzie> "SyFy" is still a silly name.
09:43:32 * oerjan is commenting on nothing but this particular event
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10:16:44 <myndzi\> if you don't have cable, does that mean you are... SyFy-less?
10:17:25 <oerjan> ...is there a pun in there somewhere?
10:17:40 <myndzi\> it's buried deep, but if you dig you can find it
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10:18:46 <myndzi> at least, that's what comes to mind whenever i read SyFy
10:19:02 <myndzi> ironic seeing as how i use a y in my nick for a long i sound
10:19:14 <myndzi> but i see SyFy and read "siphee"
10:22:19 <fizzie> Officially it's pronounced just like "sci-fi", except that now they can trademark it.
10:22:49 <fizzie> I did catch the syphilis pun, but couldn't come up with a STD counter-pun in time.
10:29:38 <oerjan> i guess you didn't have the right aids
10:39:18 <fizzie> I have to applaud you for that: clap, clap, clap.
10:42:06 * oerjan has a near-whoosh experience
10:48:33 <fizzie> 2. gonorrhea, gonorrhoea, clap -- (a common venereal disease caused by the bacterium Neisseria gonorrhoeae; symptoms are painful urination and pain around the urethra) -- just in case it whooshed by someone completely.
10:49:05 <fizzie> Gahh. Stop erroring, you stupid script!
10:50:02 <fizzie> "exception: PreModule: The file has invalid dimension". Graa, why can't you say which file is "the file", and what is this "dimension" it has and what it should have.
10:52:22 <fizzie> The exception came from an ugly C++ blob.
10:54:46 <fizzie> The file I think it should be reading does have the right dimension, but since it doesn't bother saying the file name, I can't quite be certain it's reading the right file.
11:00:25 <fizzie> Oh, it's the *other* file that's wrong.
11:00:54 <oerjan> well files contain strings, which is clearly related to string theory, which has extra dimensions. you must have got an invalid one into the mix.
11:02:08 <oerjan> try and see if you can extract it, it might contain the secret to FTL travel
11:06:15 <fizzie> According to the thing, it was supposed to have 21 dimensions, but it had 4290576399 of them instead.
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14:22:40 <fizzie> There are bird-like things called Zuu in many of the Final Fantasy games, but that might be completely irrelevant.
14:28:14 <Zuu> nooga, im certainly not a wtf
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15:03:38 <nooga> wtf -> Who the f**k
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15:35:35 <cpressey> Well, I started writing up my apply/ylppa language, and while the two operations have some nice properties (like (x/y)*y=x, and x/x=1,) I don't think I can make it into one of those "mainstream" algebraic structures (like a group) because both operations are non-associative, and I can't see any way offhand to make them associative.
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15:42:21 <fizzie> "Ylppö" is a Finnish male name (c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvo_Ylppö); I can't not think of it every time you say "ylppa".
15:42:28 <fizzie> Sorry, surname, I mean.
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16:01:21 <nooga> Hi Phantom_Hoover!
16:03:21 <Phantom_Hoover> 15:50:29 <cpressey> unlambda in unlambda 15:51:21 <cpressey> that's just not right <-- Unlambda in Lazy K is even shorter, I think.
16:15:39 <cpressey> fizzie: i'm in ur irc channel, makin u think names
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16:34:36 <cpressey> Isn't /tmp kind of an "antipattern" (though I despise that word)? ~/tmp would be better, except for the doesn't-count-for-quota/could-get-deleted-at-any-time rules, but those could be implemented some other way.
16:35:02 <cpressey> symlink into a private subdir of /tmp, for example
16:51:01 <cpressey> "TOO LATE" meaning, god only knows how many programs already write to /tmp and use kludgey ways of compenstating for its suckage
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16:54:06 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how much of the esolangs wiki is Turing tarpits.
16:54:25 <Phantom_Hoover> And how much is languages with single-character syntax.
16:55:30 <cpressey> Not *too* many "unary languages", I hope
16:58:29 <cpressey> Oh hah, yeah, not what I was thinking.
16:58:44 <cpressey> Program in a single-character language, to me: ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
16:59:08 <cpressey> Single-character tokens in syntax, I get ya.
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17:02:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder how many of them are like that because the designer had an idea but couldn't be bothered writing a parser?
17:05:58 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Isn't /tmp kind of an "antipattern" (though I despise that word)? ~/tmp would be better, except for the doesn't-count-for-quota/could-get-deleted-at-any-time rules, but those could be implemented some other way. <-- what if /home is on, for example, nfs?
17:06:07 <Vorpal> while /tmp is then presumably local
17:06:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, of course you could make login scripts mount /home/whatever/tmp
17:06:35 <Vorpal> still, complicates things
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17:07:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well you need a parser for brainfuck
17:08:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, while for befunge... you don't
17:08:35 <Vorpal> but for brainfuck you need to match up [ and ]
17:08:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed. A simple recursive one works very nicely
17:10:38 <Phantom_Hoover> (You can write a BF interpreter sans parser, but it's ugly.)
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17:15:37 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> 15:50:29 <cpressey> unlambda in unlambda 15:51:21 <cpressey> that's just not right <-- Unlambda in Lazy K is even shorter, I think.
17:16:10 <oerjan> i would be surprised if that were the case, after stripping comments and whitespace at least
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17:20:17 <fizzie> It wouldn't even necessarily need a symlink in ~, just something to generate /tmp/foo for each user, and set TMPDIR to that. Though I'm sure there's an uncountable number of apps that have "/tmp" hardcoded.
17:21:19 <oerjan> approx 1928 stripped (approx because it might also strip a few chars from the character table)
17:25:13 <nooga> i can't figure out how to zip lists
17:25:31 <nooga> it was easier even in Haskell
17:26:29 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> (You can write a BF interpreter sans parser, but it's ugly.) <-- one that interprets directly and then seeks on the source to find matching [ and ] ?
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17:28:17 <oerjan> something like zip([X|XS],[Y|YS],[Z|ZS]) :- tuple(X,Y,Z), zip(XS,YS,ZS). for the main case, assuming i remember syntax right
17:28:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, the most straight forward way to find such would be to grep in /usr/bin for the string /tmp and then in that set grep for those that doesn't also contain TMPDIR (in case they check TMPDIR then fall back to /tmp if missing)
17:28:49 <fizzie> zip([], [], []). zip([A|As], [B|Bs], [[A,B]|Cs]) :- zip(As, Bs, Cs). -- if you want to handle just two lists, and want "tuples" made out of two-element lists.
17:29:46 <Vorpal> hm environment is rather inefficient, as far as I know it is stored as an unsorted array of char*
17:29:59 <Vorpal> would be better if it used some sort of binary search tree
17:30:47 <nooga> yesterday alise came up with something pretty simmilar but then it didn't work
17:31:11 <oerjan> <cpressey> Isn't /tmp kind of an "antipattern" (though I despise that word)? ~/tmp would be better, except for the doesn't-count-for-quota/could-get-deleted-at-any-time rules, but those could be implemented some other way.
17:31:36 <oerjan> um isn't there an actual function for getting a temp file...
17:31:42 <fizzie> I don't think an implementation is forbidden to maintain some sort of a lookup-helper structure for the environment, but I don't know any that do.
17:31:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, several even.
17:32:26 <oerjan> and don't they look at the $TEMP variable or something, or was it $TMPDIR
17:32:29 <fizzie> mkstemp, mktemp, tempnam, tmpnam and tmpfile, at least.
17:32:41 <fizzie> Many do look for TMPDIR.
17:32:54 <oerjan> so the antipattern would be rolling your own, wouldn't it
17:35:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, mkstemp iirc only fills in the Xes at the end of the string?
17:35:27 <fizzie> The functions, or at least those that actually create the file instead of just returning a name for it, also to some degree handle awful race conditions where you choose a nonexisting file name, then try to open it, and meanwhile some other process goes and creates that file.
17:36:04 <fizzie> Yes, I guess mkstemp/mktemp only use a template you provide.
17:36:56 <fizzie> tmpfile() in glibc seems to do this: "[POSIX] does not specify the directory that tmpfile() will use. Glibc will try the path prefix P_tmpdir defined in <stdio.h>, and if that fails the directory /tmp."
17:37:06 <fizzie> So it doesn't even look at the environment.
17:37:29 * oerjan finds today's mezzacotta somewhat amusing
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17:42:59 <fizzie> A common (read: seen in more than one place) Linux-demoscene trick to make a "transparently" decompressing "executable" is to put "x=/tmp/Q;tail -n+2 $0|bzcat>$x;chmod +x $x;$x;rm $x;exit" on one line, and concatenate a bzip2'd (or lzcat+lzma, or xzcat+xz) executable after that; then you just hope that the app managed to make a /tmp/Q and execute it.
17:43:47 <fizzie> It's two bytes shorter than the arguably a tiny tiny bit cleaner version which does "x=`mktemp`;tail ..." instead.
17:44:52 <fizzie> Some also leave out the "rm $x" part, that's six more bytes saved.
17:46:47 <oerjan> thus _ensuring_ that running it twice will fail?
17:47:13 <fizzie> Not if you're the only person who keeps running it, which is quite reasonable.
17:47:22 <fizzie> Not so many people run demos on so very multiusery systems.
17:49:04 <fizzie> If you chmod it "a+rx" instead of just "+x", then those other people will end up running your version, also.
17:49:41 <fizzie> I guess with some umasks plain old "+x" is enough for that.
17:50:10 <oerjan> um wouldn't it bail out when trying to write to it
17:50:31 <fizzie> I don't think so, it's just commands separated with ; after all.
17:50:37 <nooga> crap, i failed discrete maths
17:50:54 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ false;false;false;echo "ha, I don't mind the failures"
17:50:54 <fizzie> ha, I don't mind the failures
17:51:22 <nooga> because of goddamn linear algebra
17:51:45 <fizzie> (The tail ...>$x would fail, and the chmod would fail, but the plain "$x;" would still try to run it.)
17:56:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't +x enough for a+x with the standard 022 umask?
17:56:58 <fizzie> I don't know how standard 022 is, vs. the 077.
17:57:11 <fizzie> But yes, "with some umasks".
17:57:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can't remember last seeing 077. Pretty sure stock arch and stock ubuntu at least both use 022
17:58:36 <fizzie> Possibly. I've been setting it consistently to 077 everywhere for myself, I may have just been assuming that other people were also.
17:59:16 <fizzie> Right, /etc/login.defs "# 022 is the "historical" value in Debian for UMASK when it was used" and /etc/profile "umask 022" for this Ubuntu.
18:00:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, 077 messes up for public_html
18:00:37 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:00:56 <fizzie> I prefer to make public only things I explicitly want to make public.
18:01:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah but scp file webserver:public_html and you likely end up getting 403 for it
18:01:39 <Vorpal> and well, desktop and laptop are single user systems.
18:02:49 <fizzie> I don't do that, though. I have ~/www mounted (with the gvfs nonsense nowadays) over Samba from the webserver, and have set it to override permissions there so that everything copied there goes public.
18:04:38 <fizzie> I may have started the umask 077 habit from my university shell account; though admittedly it's a bit paranoidical, having 0700 for ~ is likely to be enough to keep snooping people out.
18:05:46 <fizzie> Heh, the http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?big+number+arithmetic problem had a hilariously misleading name.
18:07:36 -!- distant_figure has changed nick to sleg.
18:10:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is very tricky without cheating
18:10:43 <fizzie> Yes, and based on the lengths everyone *is* cheating, with just three testcases. Still, I liked the... pun, if you can call it that.
18:11:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, most are not marked as cheats though
18:11:47 <fizzie> I'm not sure what's the usual way of marking them is.
18:12:10 <Vorpal> iirc "<username>(cheat)" or "<username>(embed)" or similar
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18:12:53 <nooga> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?big+number+arithmetic this one is hard
18:13:52 <Vorpal> nooga, see comments just above
18:14:45 <Vorpal> nooga, ... isn't it obvious?
18:14:54 <fizzie> Cheating by just looking at two characters of the input, and deciding, based on those, whether to output one of three existing constants.
18:15:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, 3, unless you mean those actively looked at
18:15:31 <Vorpal> (as opposed to those you have to read in)
18:16:02 <nooga> i thought there are more input datasets
18:17:07 <fizzie> I meant "actively looked at"; and you have to read in 4, because both the latter ones start with three spaces.
18:17:24 <nooga> normally they don't use example data shown with the problem to actually test programs
18:17:46 <fizzie> anagolf doesn't have any hidden testsets; it does say it's not serious golfing on the front page, though.
18:19:03 <fizzie> In the interests of promoting cheatingship, I put in a (marked-as-such) Befunge version too, though it's a bit on the long side.
18:23:05 <cpressey> oerjan: you expect programmers to use an *API*? bah!
18:24:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, where did he say that?
18:24:49 <cpressey> oerjan: um isn't there an actual function for getting a temp file...
18:25:02 <cpressey> sorry should have been <oerjan>
18:25:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, on *nix: several
18:25:24 <cpressey> cpressey: I wasn't asking, I was quoting oerjan.
18:25:51 <Vorpal> cpressey, and those doesn't put the file in any sort of $TMPDIR or such afaik
18:25:55 <fizzie> fizzie: I like that "talking to myself" angle of that last comment.
18:26:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: tempnam in glibc uses the $TMPDIR directory as its first priority, if set.
18:26:58 <fungot> Vorpal: as a as a religious fnord or not
18:27:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, downside: not secure
18:27:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Meh, it's just not secure if you don't use it right... but I guess that's a reasonable concern.
18:27:58 <oerjan> fungot: let's hope not
18:27:58 <fungot> oerjan: ah when i was going with you know like
18:28:24 <fizzie> fungot: No, I don't really know. Like what?
18:28:25 <fungot> fizzie: a lot of mean l._a. it the whole experience you know so
18:28:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, well you have to add logic to try again if it fails.
18:28:34 <Vorpal> while mkstemp iirc does that for it
18:28:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
18:29:17 <fizzie> It's a conversational telephone speech corpus thing.
18:29:21 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
18:29:31 <fizzie> http://www.ldc.upenn.edu/Catalog/CatalogEntry.jsp?catalogId=LDC2004T19
18:29:50 <fizzie> (I'm not exactly sure if it's that particular set.)
18:30:21 <cpressey> I suppose if I really cared, I could make a distro without a /tmp dir, which complains when you try to make a dir called /tmp, and which wires up all the API's/defaults/env vars sanely, and which says "oh boo hoo" if your script breaks trying to get at /tmp...
18:31:27 <fizzie> You're a really careful person if you really care that much.
18:32:41 -!- sleg has changed nick to hiato.
18:33:31 <fizzie> And yes, I forgot to actually reply, but mktemp/mkstemp/tmpfile all handle the actual file creation for you, but none of them -- in glibc -- look at the environment for the directory. (Okay, mktemp/mkstemp can't very well, since they just use a template with substituted characters, but tmpfile could.)
18:34:24 <Vorpal> cpressey, issue: breaks X11 amongst other things
18:34:25 <fizzie> GNU coreutils "mktemp" binary does use $TMPDIR, though.
18:34:56 <Vorpal> /tmp.X11-unix /tmp.X0-lock and /tmp.ICE-unix
18:35:02 <Vorpal> all have very good reasons for /tmp
18:35:14 <Vorpal> /tmp/.X11-unix /tmp/.X0-lock and /tmp/.ICE-unix
18:36:46 <fizzie> If you're rolling your own distro, I'm sure those *can* be moved, it might just be bit of work.
18:39:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, and it will be quite a pain for users who wish to compile programs you haven't made a package for
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18:40:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, an alternative idea that I seen in some hardened kernel patch is to add support for uid-dependant symlinks. So you make /tmp such a symlink and then it ends up pointing to different directories for different users
18:40:37 <fizzie> How does *that* work with X's root-owned /tmp/ socket-dirs?
18:41:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe symlink those into the tmp dir for each user?
18:42:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, this would be easy to do on linux if only /proc/self/ had some magic $HOME symlink or such
18:43:57 <Vorpal> /proc/self/cwd/proc/self/cwd $
18:44:14 <Vorpal> only works by starting from / obviously
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18:44:58 <Vorpal> and it is just a trick "confusing" bash, I think the symlinks are actually resolved when changing directory
18:45:33 <fizzie> /proc/self/root/proc/self/root would always work, but it's perhaps less confusing-looking.
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18:46:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, with cwd you have to remember that cd affects it
18:46:35 <Vorpal> and thus introduces a element of confusion that the root pointer doesn't
18:46:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, now, chrooting to /proc/self/root/proc/self/root might do the trick
18:47:13 <fizzie> In most cases bash's symlink-handling works reasonably well, but it's sometimes annoying how "cd .." moves "logically" how the path-in-the-prompt would suggest, while "cp blah .." or "ls .." of course won't.
18:50:07 <Vorpal> speaking of annoyance with paths: rsync on two directories (recursively)
18:50:17 <Vorpal> iirc, if one ends with / and the other argument doesn't
18:50:20 <Vorpal> you get strange results
18:50:47 <Vorpal> I tend to add it on both sides thus
18:52:32 <Vorpal> iirc the issue was that with something like rsync -r foo/ bar, it would actually sync foo/ to bar/foo/
18:52:34 <Vorpal> or something like that
18:52:53 <fizzie> Yes, it had some sort of logic in it that wasn't exactly obvious.
18:53:31 <fizzie> "Had" meaning I ran into rsync directory-creation strangeness too before.
18:53:37 <fizzie> I'm sure it technically speaking still has it.
18:53:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah, not as in "they fixed it" then
18:54:00 <fizzie> Well, it's not *broken*, it's just different.
18:54:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seem to remember that cp(1) on openbsd or netbsd or something such had some rule that cp -r foo/ bar would do cp -r foo/* bar/
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18:55:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, might not have been that exact way to write it, as in it could have been / on the other argument or such
18:55:28 <Vorpal> but yeah, some strangeness on one of the *bsds
18:55:39 <Vorpal> it might even have been mv
18:55:41 <oklofok> indeed, completely fucked up
18:56:00 <fizzie> The man page says that "rsync -av /src/foo /dest" and "rsync -av /src/foo/ /dest/foo" do the same thing; i.e. copy /src/foo's contents into /dest/foo.
18:56:18 <oerjan> oklofok: even the rabbits?
18:56:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, rabbits always are
18:56:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, so / on second argument?
18:56:46 <fizzie> Also, they have some sort of a mnemonic that a trailing slash in the source means "copy the contents of the directory", as opposed to "copy the directory itself".
18:57:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I tend to do trailing on both ends
18:57:32 <fizzie> It doesn't mention (in this section I'm reading) how (or if) a trailing slash on the second argument would change the behaviour.
18:58:10 <Vorpal> <fizzie> The man page says that "rsync -av /src/foo /dest" and "rsync -av /src/foo/ /dest/foo" do the same thing; i.e. copy /src/foo's contents into /dest/foo.
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18:58:12 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Also, they have some sort of a mnemonic that a trailing slash in the source means "copy the contents of the directory", as opposed to "copy the directory itself".
18:58:19 <Vorpal> contradicting each other?
19:01:06 * Sgeo sneezes bullets
19:01:44 <Vorpal> hm how does moulting work? I mean, shouldn't it get smaller over time? Like Russian dolls. Rather than larger?
19:03:00 <Vorpal> I mean for snakes and such
19:03:29 <fizzie> In contrast, shouldn't all non-moulting species always say the exact same size?
19:05:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, well no, the issue with moulting to me is that the reason for doing it, seems to be that they can't expand the old skin? Right? So how can they store a larger one underneath the smaller old one? For snakes you could presumably make it elastic or fold it or such. But for some insects the exoskeleton that they shed is rigid
19:05:48 <Vorpal> which makes it a lot trickier
19:06:06 -!- Ilari_an1rcomp has changed nick to Ilari_antrcomp.
19:06:26 <Vorpal> oh wikipedia claims the new one hardens over time
19:08:36 <cpressey> <fizzie> fizzie: I like that "talking to myself" angle of that last comment.
19:09:08 <cpressey> i am one dangerously confused mofo!
19:10:22 <cpressey> <Vorpal> cpressey, issue: breaks X11 amongst other things
19:11:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, as a distro maintainer you would presumably have to patch the most popular packages
19:11:51 <fizzie> Or at least pay some alimony.
19:11:55 <cpressey> <Vorpal> cpressey, an alternative idea that I seen in some hardened kernel patch is to add support for uid-dependant symlinks. <-- yeah, DragonFlyBSD has "varsyms" that do this sort of thing
19:12:39 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm haven't used that one
19:13:01 <Vorpal> cpressey, how is it done though? Must be out of band data for it to work
19:13:20 <Vorpal> out of band wrt file name it points to
19:13:38 <cpressey> there's a context of substitions, like env vars, but only substituted inside link destinations, which look like: /usr/${var}/etc/whatever
19:13:39 <Vorpal> which would incur a checking overhead
19:13:45 <Vorpal> no clue how large that overhead would be
19:14:08 <cpressey> and you as a user can always alter the varsym vars, I think, so it might not even work well for this
19:14:13 <Vorpal> cpressey, what if I created a file named ${blargh} and wanted to symlink to it?
19:14:40 <cpressey> there's no var expansion in filenames, only in symbolic link destinations
19:15:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, well yes but consider: touch '${HOME}' && ln -s './${HOME}' ./foo
19:15:17 <cpressey> a file named ${blargh} is just like a file named ${blargh} on any other unixoid
19:15:35 <Vorpal> cpressey, see the issue here?
19:15:44 <cpressey> Vorpal: then ./foo can point to different things...? no, i don't see the issue
19:16:16 <cpressey> set varsym var HOME to '${HOME}' and it'll point to the file you just touched
19:16:19 <Vorpal> cpressey, well it could in theory break some programs that create a symlink to a file path containing such a file or directory. Unlikely yes
19:16:52 <Vorpal> cpressey, I *think* this might make it non-POSIX compliant :P
19:16:59 <cpressey> if you are creating files named './${HOME}' you're getting what you pay for
19:17:03 <Vorpal> not completely sure but likely
19:17:14 <cpressey> Vorpal: OMG NO SOMEONE PROTECT THE GEESE QUICKLY
19:17:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, which geese? *looks around*
19:17:35 <Vorpal> wait, why did cpressey turn into a goose?
19:17:54 <Vorpal> and why would he need protection?
19:22:09 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Quit: ...).
19:24:08 <oerjan> he just wanted to send you on a wild goose chase, is all
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19:48:17 <cpressey> The thing with X11, IIUC, is that it is following a *different* antipattern (Man! I can't stand that word! Why do I keep using it?): it is exploiting the fact that /tmp is shared. It should instead be creating those things in /shared. Which should exist.
19:48:48 <cpressey> alise will probably read all this in scrollback and say, cpressey: Plan 9!
19:49:07 <oerjan> cpressey, stuck in the antipattern of using "antipattern"
19:49:34 <cpressey> antipattern is just another antipattern
19:51:12 <fizzie> cpressey: Windows 3.11 for Workgroups! (It doesn't put sockets in /tmp, I'm pretty sure.)
19:54:04 * cpressey sends his thoughts on that to fizzie using DDE
19:57:02 <cpressey> actually, I thought DDE was a heck of a lot more coherent as an IPC mechanism than OLE was
19:57:21 <cpressey> or is? what do they use now? i don't want to know.
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19:58:10 <fizzie> I think it is (or was) something COM-based now.
19:59:59 <cpressey> just because they have COM (and used to have .COM) and .NET doesn't mean microsoft is the internet
20:00:23 <fizzie> Yes, because org-mode still holds court at .org files.
20:01:08 <fizzie> Actually I think now-now you're supposed to use some sort of .NET IPC channels, in fact.
20:02:22 <fizzie> .NET Framework 2 IPC channels have been deprecated in .NET Framework 4, in favour of using Windows Communication Foundation (WCF).
20:02:40 <fizzie> "Windows Communication Foundation (WCF) is Microsoft’s unified programming model for building service-oriented applications. It enables developers to build secure, reliable, transacted solutions that integrate across platforms and interoperate with existing investments."
20:02:50 <fizzie> See there, interoperate with existing investments.
20:05:01 -!- augur has joined.
20:05:48 <fizzie> Incidentally, I have that Linux-based minimal module player code, and its stakeholder (ha, I've heard of these terms too!) wanted a Windows executable, so I quick-and-dirty ported it to use winapi "waveOutFoo" functions and linked with cross-mingw's binutils' linker; it works fine in Wine, but apparently no longer in Windows 7.
20:06:22 <fizzie> I tried to take a look at how audio should be done nowadays (the multimedia functions are from the 16-bit era, after all) but haven't yet bothered to find out how to call through COM interfaces from assembly.
20:09:55 <fizzie> I guess it's just about fetching a vtable and calling via it, but gah.
20:35:21 <coppro> hey, can someone explain to me when I would write a monad in Haskell?
20:36:33 <pikhq> coppro: When you realise that you have already written >>=.
20:43:38 * Sgeo wonders if he should learn orn
20:45:21 <Vorpal> <cpressey> The thing with X11, IIUC, is that it is following a *different* antipattern (Man! I can't stand that word! Why do I keep using it?): it is exploiting the fact that /tmp is shared. It should instead be creating those things in /shared. Which should exist.
20:45:30 <Vorpal> /var/run or similar probably
20:46:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, I think that would probably be best
20:48:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, "stakeholder"?
20:49:01 <Vorpal> I have not heard of that word. Or if I have, I forgot about it
20:52:03 <wareya> welcome to #unix_and_tarpits
20:52:36 <Vorpal> wareya, what? We discuss befunge here too. Very non-tarpitty
20:52:49 <Vorpal> and also about everything else
20:53:00 <Slereah> How many commands does befunge have?
20:53:03 <Vorpal> Slereah, yes, especially befunge98
20:53:38 <Vorpal> Slereah, not sure about 93. But 98 has all printable chars in ASCII mapped. A-Z are mapped to loadable extensions. Of which there exist many
20:53:54 <Vorpal> 93 has a subset of these. But even it has a pretty large instruction set
20:54:27 <wareya> It's rediculously easy to do simple things in X ways; lim(x->inf)
20:54:40 <wareya> Damned american school failed me again!
20:54:45 <Vorpal> oh wait, I read that as C first XD
20:55:25 <Vorpal> Slereah, consider the fingerprint (loadable extension) SOCK for example. IIRC CLC-INTERCAL has some networking support, but only to other CLC-INTERCAL implementations. fungot uses SOCK to connect to IRC
20:55:26 <fungot> Vorpal: ( ( this is)) did we look at historical things or did we look at each other no i'm right laughter you know so
20:55:40 <Vorpal> and FILE to treat a file as an open stream
20:56:00 <Vorpal> (befunge98 has built in load/write for files, FILE is however more advanced)
21:03:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
21:03:42 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
21:03:46 <fungot> Vorpal:/ second volume/ causes and means :) temperature for corresponding times in other years.
21:03:56 <fungot> Vorpal: pebbles :), strewed over patagonia. --of patagonia, formation :).
21:05:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: "A corporate stakeholder is a party that can affect or be affected by the actions of the business as a whole."
21:06:26 <fizzie> ("The term has been broadened to include anyone who has an interest in a matter.")
21:06:39 <cpressey> <Vorpal> /var/run or similar probably <--- yeah, that would be appropriate
21:12:04 <cpressey> fizzie: transacted solutions that interoperate. imagine that! the stakeholders will be well pleased
21:12:34 <cpressey> <coppro> hey, can someone explain to me when I would write a monad in Haskell?
21:12:41 <cpressey> coppro: AT ANY AND ALL OCCASIONS
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21:14:41 <Vorpal> coppro, I would suggest "never: if you need a monad you are probably doing something practical"
21:15:08 <Vorpal> coppro, try instead staying completely pure.
21:16:44 <cpressey> there's a certain satisfaction one can get out of writing completely monadless code, but, monads have a place. and i wouldn't call them impure.
21:18:29 <Sgeo> Vorpal thinks they're impure
21:18:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see log?
21:18:34 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: <coppro> hey, can someone explain to me when I would write a monad in Haskell?
21:19:00 -!- comex has joined.
21:19:47 <Sgeo> Well, maybe I mischaracterized what Vorpal said. I hope I mischaracterized what Vorpal said
21:20:00 <Sgeo> alise's habits are rubbing off on me :(
21:20:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, of course. I was making a *joke*
21:21:28 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
21:22:11 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, for an answer, you could look at the use cases for most of the standard monads on the Haskell wiki.
21:25:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, about mathematicians being too theoretical I think
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21:25:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it fails hugely because noöne who understands monads whatsoever thinks they are "impure".
21:29:40 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, general question: I have a copy of "Gödel, Escher, Bach" lying around. Do I read it?
21:31:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, isn't that one of those book that have a low ratio of readers to owners?
21:31:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so it is up to you I guess
21:31:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that's nasty
21:32:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, stealing in other words
21:32:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, he gave it to you?
21:33:57 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Do not read it.
21:34:46 <cpressey> No. I have respect for the Necronomicon.
21:35:10 <cpressey> GEB is not evil, it's just... spinny.
21:35:27 <cpressey> WOW MATHEMATICS IS SUCH A TRIP
21:36:27 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: How do I explain "spinny"?
21:38:08 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I changed my mind. Read it. I think your system will reject it, like mine did. I mean, I can only hope.
21:38:23 <cpressey> Reject it like a donor's kidney.
21:38:54 <Phantom_Hoover> What was the reason your mental immune system rejected it?
21:39:22 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I think it's because I don't consider mathematics to be a religious experience.
21:39:43 <Vorpal> cpressey, with the right dose of LSD and some luck that would probably change?
21:39:53 <cpressey> Vorpal: *Bad* luck, I hope you mean
21:40:02 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Well, not explicitly AFAIR.
21:40:06 <Vorpal> cpressey, "some" does not indicate which direction
21:40:12 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: But... well, read it.
21:40:14 <Vorpal> cpressey, well it does in everyday speech
21:40:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, but not if you actually look at what the words say
21:41:05 <cpressey> My only interest is that you'll become far more obnoxious in this channel if you become one of ... *them*.
21:41:06 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, it's too big to embark upon without serious and irrefutable reason to do so.
21:41:43 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Well, I only mean the preface, or first chapter, or whatnot. (The one where he explains to the reader what a "strange loop" is.)
21:42:21 -!- iGO has joined.
21:42:31 <cpressey> That's Hofstaderese for OMG RECURSION BLEW MY MIND
21:43:38 <cpressey> Note that I tend to be rather anti-Pop-Mathematics, and anti-Pop-Science, and anti-Pop-* in general.
21:43:52 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: That's quite nice.
21:44:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: There are a few small exceptions -- I said "in general". I may or may not know Ian Stewart
21:45:40 <cpressey> No, nor have I read Discworld anything.
21:46:19 <cpressey> anyone have an oxygen cannister? PH seems to be... subventilating
21:46:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, there? A question about Norwegian. What does "Faen" mean?
21:47:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, I guess "the devil" based on sv:fan
21:47:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, google translate claims it means "fuck" for some strange reason
21:47:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, and it also does sv:fan -> no:fuck which seems completely broken
21:47:53 <oerjan> it's a contraction of "fanden", i don't think it's anything to do with fauns
21:48:39 <oerjan> Vorpal: well in modern norwegian it's mainly a swearword
21:49:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, "damn" seems more relevant
21:49:39 <oerjan> you'd use "djevelen" or "satan" if you wanted to talk about the religious matters. of course those _are_ also swearwords :)
21:50:08 <oerjan> well, "dæven" rather than "djevelen" as a swearword, mostly
21:50:33 <oerjan> and "damn" is pretty close in meaning, yeah
21:50:59 <Vorpal> "dæven" I can't think of anything like in Swedish
21:52:00 <fizzie> oerjan: However, Google translate no:faen -> fi gives "naida", which is the first infinitive form of the verb, "to fuck", and is not really something that's be very commonly used as a swearword. (It's a bit on the crude side, but not actually really swearwordy.)
21:52:34 <oerjan> (not the same for swearing, though)
21:52:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah google fails
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21:52:58 <Vorpal> at translating that is
21:53:26 <oerjan> "fuck" is a perfectly valid swearword in colloquial norwegian, me thinks
21:54:10 <Vorpal> I think it is that here too. It can't be used in the English non-swearword sense though in Swedish.
21:54:52 <oerjan> while the norwegian translation "pule" would be extremely crude in comparison
21:54:52 <Vorpal> hm I wonder what sort of maximal tarpit you could make
21:55:13 <Vorpal> get as many instructions as possible in a language while making sure removing any single one would make it non-TC
21:56:01 <fizzie> Google does correctly translate en:"fuck you" to the probably closest-in-sense Finnish all-purpose swearword, even though it has a different literal meaning (female genitalia, basically).
21:59:32 <oerjan> hm "Jäkel" would appear to be a german surname
21:59:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, Jäkel and Mr Hyde?
21:59:32 <oerjan> yeah run and hyde, you
21:59:32 <fizzie> I used to live on "Jääkärinkatu" (Jäger street).
21:59:32 <fizzie> (Which is also a German surname.)
21:59:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, is Jäger related to jägare? That is en:hunter
21:59:32 <oerjan> Vorpal: hm i imagine a language in which the command to increment a value depends on the value and you need to use all of them to avoid all cells ending up with the value you left out the increment for
21:59:32 <Vorpal> hm where have I heard "jäger" spelled like that. Somewhere the last few months. And no I don't speak German...
21:59:32 <fizzie> It's German for hunter, but among English speakers the military meaning might be more well-known.
22:04:35 <oerjan> Vorpal: for your maximal tarpit
22:04:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, but I don't see what you mean with "to avoid all cells ending up with the value you left out the increment for"
22:04:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, or why you would need all to do that
22:04:35 <fizzie> (Or possibly the drink that starts with the word.)
22:04:35 <oerjan> well if you left out the command to increment a 42, and there was no way to get back down without it - i'm assuming the largest value wraps here, and no decrement command
22:04:35 <oerjan> then every cell that got incremented enough would end up stuck as 42
22:04:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm. Doesn't sound terribly interesting
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22:04:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, also I suspect you could just keep moving along the tape forever
22:04:36 <Vorpal> to copy your data to a few range, at a lower value
22:04:36 <oerjan> a subtlety i see is how do you avoid just ignoring those cells and moving along the tape (assuming it's bf inspired in other respects)
22:04:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, hah beat you to it!
22:04:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway, it doesn't need to be bf based
22:04:36 <Vorpal> could be lambda calculus based
22:04:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, but your suggestion is a good start
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22:04:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why does Thursday matter here?
22:04:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Because I have to do other things and I'm not going to use free time protesting
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22:06:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: But is he going to be wearing the pope hat?
22:06:41 <oerjan> and what about the popemobile
22:06:47 <fizzie> Speaking of pope hats: http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/phx/1258405496.html (a very old thing, but still)
22:07:05 <fizzie> "I have pope hats in every closet, pope hats under the sing, pope hats full of other pope hats."
22:07:15 <fizzie> (I suspect that was supposed to be "sink".)
22:12:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, grapnel?
22:13:02 -!- Dionisia has joined.
22:13:10 <fizzie> It's a big target, easy to hit.
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22:14:21 <madbrain> would a 12 bit computer be intersting :D
22:15:13 <Dionisia> is this a channel about drawing?
22:15:41 -!- Dionisia has changed nick to dionisia.
22:15:46 <oerjan> http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/pdp-5.html
22:16:09 <oerjan> dionisia: definitely not
22:16:35 <madbrain> oerjan: except that's a poring computer for banks and governments
22:16:59 -!- dionisia has left (?).
22:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> madbrain, pretty much any number of bits can be interesting
22:30:52 <madbrain> phantom: yeah... but what about on a game console-like system?
22:32:38 <madbrain> well, ever seen demoscene demos?
22:34:44 <madbrain> something that's not underpowered so that you can do realtime gfx
22:34:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, 12-bit doesn't seem to have any particular advantages.;
22:36:28 <madbrain> well, 6-bit or 12-bit color modes could be interesting
22:37:31 <Vorpal> madbrain, I seem to remember some PIC (SoC thingy) that has a 12-bit memory for program
22:37:35 <madbrain> but they're the best things :/
22:37:44 <Vorpal> it being a Harvard architecture
22:37:57 <Vorpal> it had 8-bit words for data iirc
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22:38:11 <madbrain> vorpal: ah... cool but if I do harvard I'll need some data mem->cpu mem transfer instruction
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22:38:36 <madbrain> I'm not sure separate data and instruction buses are cool
22:39:08 <Vorpal> madbrain, note a PIC12F629 (I think it was that one I coded for, and it had 12 or 14 bits for the program memory) has is an 8 leg DIP thingy. 1024 words flash for program
22:39:10 <fizzie> The C64 graphics chip, VIC-II, is 12-bit (but not a CPU, of course) in a data-bus-width sense; the low bits are to the cpu/memory bus, and the four high ones are to the vic-only color RAM.
22:39:41 <Vorpal> and iirc 64 bytes SRAM + 128 bytes data EEPROM
22:39:46 <Vorpal> or something like that
22:40:03 <madbrain> yeah I'm really more like thinking about a dram based system
22:40:08 <Vorpal> madbrain, PIC12* are accumulator machines iirc
22:40:19 <Vorpal> madbrain, making them painful to program for
22:40:34 <madbrain> ideally 1 bus shared by cpu and gfx and sfx
22:40:47 <madbrain> and good for making screwy c64 style effects
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22:41:16 <Vorpal> madbrain, and I too avoid sound and display
22:41:47 <Vorpal> madbrain, the most interesting thing in programming for that PIC12F629 was writing the interrupt handler for the serial port communication
22:42:36 <fizzie> At least 12 divides equally by 3, which might be nice for packed-pixel RGB444 pushing, but that sounds a bit memory-intensive.
22:43:42 <Vorpal> 16 bits per channel at least. Or even better: 32-bit floating point per channeö
22:44:21 <madbrain> but it's presumably something you'd do on a 24bit computer with 12 bit words
22:44:40 <Vorpal> madbrain, how many different colours can you get hm... 64?
22:44:45 <Vorpal> too limited to be interesting
22:45:23 <Vorpal> madbrain, well 4*4*4 is 64
22:45:28 <madbrain> 6bit is 64 colors, ie probably paletted and amiga
22:46:08 <Vorpal> still extremely limited
22:46:19 <fizzie> I seem to recall a 4k color screen in some handheld.
22:46:23 <Vorpal> photos certainly won't look very nice
22:46:38 <Vorpal> especially any gradients in them
22:47:01 <Vorpal> madbrain, dithering looks horrible on all but extremely high-DPI monitors
22:47:18 <Vorpal> madbrain, well I guess it looks okay on CRTs, but only because they are naturally blurry
22:47:28 <Vorpal> used a CRT today. UGH I hate that
22:47:40 <fizzie> You and your "horribles"; earlier we had 16-color palettes and that was plenty.
22:47:41 <Vorpal> flickering, blurry crap
22:48:04 <madbrain> yeah, 256 colors is plenty from a 2d game pov
22:48:07 <Vorpal> even at a refresh rate of 75 Hz
22:48:22 <Vorpal> and of course it didn't have any auto adjust button
22:48:42 <Vorpal> I had to move the image about with the buttons when I changed to 75 Hz
22:49:42 <Vorpal> gave me a headache that monitor
22:49:58 <fizzie> Anyway, full-"byte" pixels (whether 8 or 12 bits; I guess for a 12-bit arch you'd make the memory bus wider) in something that has a framebuffer in a slow-ish main memory shared by graphics and CPU doesn't sound like it'd necessarily work.
22:50:19 <madbrain> like, compare ega (16 colors with a fixed bad palette) with vga (256 color with variable palette)
22:50:33 <madbrain> vga just looks incredibly better
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22:50:51 <GreaseMonkey> cga is fixed pal, ega is (mildly) variable pal
22:51:10 <Vorpal> is that cable? Or something else?
22:51:12 <madbrain> yeah but I've almost never seen games using ega's variable colors
22:51:22 <Vorpal> nowdays VGA, SVGA and so on seem pretty meaningless
22:51:42 <madbrain> I'm referring to specific pc hardware
22:52:01 <Vorpal> madbrain, right. today most people think "the blue cable" when you say VGA
22:52:13 <fizzie> EGA monitor connector is a 4-bit digital RGBI thing, I don't see how you get anything else than the 16 specified colors out of it. (Or did it actually have a six-bit digital thing?)
22:52:50 <fizzie> No, EGA definitely is a digital thing.
22:52:54 <Vorpal> <GreaseMonkey> cga is fixed pal, ega is (mildly) variable pal <-- so... interlacing?
22:52:58 <Vorpal> since PAL uses interlacing
22:53:11 <madbrain> fizzie: dunno how ega connected, probably 6bit digital yeah, also it had incredibly weird timing (22khz vertical retrace???????)
22:53:48 <Vorpal> madbrain, why is 22 khz so bad?
22:53:49 <madbrain> yeah that's short for palette, not the tv standard
22:53:50 <fizzie> "EGA produces a display of 16 simultaneous colors from a palette of 64 --"
22:54:13 <madbrain> vorpal: also good luck getting anything to sync to it
22:54:25 <Vorpal> madbrain, besides... khz? which direction is it drawing in?
22:54:28 <fizzie> Right, a palette of 64 does sound like the six-bit digital one, where there's RGB, and then another set of "brighter" RGB ones.
22:54:58 <madbrain> vorpal: well, ega has different horiz refresh in 200 line 70hz, and 350 line 70hz modes
22:55:17 <Vorpal> madbrain, 70 hz doesn't seem too bad
22:55:31 <Vorpal> madbrain, even though you need 75 hz for reasonably low flickering
22:55:38 <fizzie> Anyway, you can hook up 4-bit RGBI (like the C128 VDC) into a EGA monitor by wiring all three "intensity" pins to the I.
22:55:49 <Vorpal> 90 hz or above is to be preferred to make a CRT even remotely usable for more than a short duration
22:56:14 <madbrain> but yeah you'll probably never get a pic out of a computer with an EGA or CGA unless you specifically have an EGA or CGA monitor
22:56:24 <madbrain> since anything you'll find is VGA
22:56:29 <Vorpal> madbrain, couldn't you build a capture device?
22:56:46 <madbrain> vorpal: dunno if that exists for CGA or EGA
22:57:03 <madbrain> vorpal: yeah, that could do it
22:57:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, also did you say ega was digital? Unlike vga?
22:57:21 <madbrain> vorpal: still a lot more easy to use a computer with a VGA
22:57:22 <fizzie> Anyway, you can hook up 4-bit RGBI (like the C128 VDC) into a EGA monitor by wiring all three "intensity" pins to the I.
22:57:31 <Vorpal> madbrain, I prefer a DPI
22:57:51 <fizzie> "I think I've seen some schematics. They were pretty hacky." is what I was supposed to say.
22:58:05 <fizzie> For an EGA-VGA box, that is.
22:59:15 <Vorpal> madbrain, why on earth?
22:59:28 <Vorpal> madbrain, absolutely no one uses analog for anything new
22:59:29 <madbrain> secret: analog DVI is actually just VGA remapped to a different connector :D
22:59:40 <Vorpal> what monitor interface did the old lisp machines use?
22:59:56 <madbrain> vorpal: they switched to analog for VGA!
23:00:06 <Vorpal> what monitor interface did the old lisp machines use?
23:00:12 <madbrain> CGA and EGA had digital cables, VGA had analog
23:00:28 <madbrain> and VGA was standard for like over 10 years
23:00:48 <Vorpal> madbrain, again: what monitor interface did the old lisp machines use?
23:01:07 <madbrain> nobody has hardware that will interface old lisp machines
23:01:17 <madbrain> but vga is still really common
23:01:19 <Vorpal> madbrain, unless you have a monitor still left
23:01:36 <Vorpal> madbrain, but presumably you could construct a conversion box
23:01:44 <Vorpal> what monitor interface they used
23:02:05 <Vorpal> madbrain, lisp machines...
23:02:25 <Vorpal> madbrain, well it is much more interesting than IBM PC history
23:02:39 <Vorpal> and I know I'm not alone in that
23:02:41 <madbrain> it's not like you'll actually output something neat to look at out of a lisp machine
23:03:01 <fizzie> The Sun box I have in the basement has Sun's own extremely silly 13W3 connector; it's shaped like the usual n-pin D connector, but inside there's three tiny coaxial-type connectors in addition to 13 regular pins.
23:03:04 <Vorpal> madbrain, you are trolling now
23:03:34 <madbrain> fizzie: is that the one that's actually exactly like VGA but with sync on green? :D
23:04:10 <Vorpal> madbrain, of course you can output neat stuff with it
23:04:15 <fizzie> madbrain: No, it's like VGA but there's a combined H/V sync. (Instead of VGA's separate.)
23:04:20 <Vorpal> such as lisp code. Or drawing stuff on screen
23:04:36 <fizzie> madbrain: SGI's boxes, I think, mostly did sync-on-green.
23:05:02 <Vorpal> why on earth you only care about graphics demos I can't fathom
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23:05:36 <fizzie> I have a 13W3/(4xBNC) cable that worked in a CRT with the usual 5xBNC inputs; according to the monitor manuals it would've done sync-on-green too.
23:05:40 <Vorpal> madbrain, so is Gregor? And?
23:05:54 <madbrain> computers that don't output music bore me
23:05:59 <Vorpal> madbrain, there is more to computing than graphics demos. Especially in this channels
23:06:12 <Gregor> Pianos that don't output music bore me. Computers that don't output music are useful for computational tasks.
23:06:34 <Gregor> Also, http://codu.org/tmp/existentialism.png
23:06:59 <madbrain> vorpal: but I have to admit that sound and gfx are my personal favorite topics
23:07:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, pokemon joke right?
23:07:52 <Gregor> Via someone else, but yes :P
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23:08:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, it is Super Effective of course
23:09:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, what exactly _is_ existentialism?
23:09:31 <Gregor> Cropped from http://a.imageshack.us/img843/9525/confusion.png
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23:10:33 <cpressey> madbrain: i think you should have a relatively powerful co-processor to do the gfx and/or sound
23:10:55 <Vorpal> Or: just pour more resources into the CPU
23:11:12 <cpressey> not as cool... you don't get to worry about bus contention that way!
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23:12:06 <Vorpal> cpressey, iirc there exists dual-access-port-thingy RAM?
23:12:19 <Vorpal> not sure if that allows concurrent access
23:13:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, anyway I programmed on a thing recently where the CPU (a SoC) had a 1 bit serial databus to the LCD controller
23:13:16 <madbrain> vorpal: more cpu probably translates into at least having CPU cache
23:13:16 <fizzie> You can get dual-access memory; some boards based on that TI DSP I keep talking about have some. Then you can do two reads/clock.
23:13:46 <madbrain> plus that sort of architecture makes everything look like 1996 pc demos :D
23:14:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, couldn't you do different devices doing the different reads/writes?
23:14:40 <Vorpal> madbrain, need to add an advanced GPU then
23:14:49 <Vorpal> madbrain, then you get an interesting 3D demo
23:15:17 <Vorpal> there needs to be an FPGA demo scene
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23:15:30 <Vorpal> now that would be cool
23:15:33 <madbrain> it's a great platform and they did tons of stuff on the psx but it's also kinda complicated
23:15:49 <Vorpal> madbrain, I was thinking along the lines of PS3 rather
23:16:13 <madbrain> vorpal: too bad there's not enough overlap between the demoscene and hardware people
23:16:36 <Vorpal> madbrain, hardware people probably find it more interesting to do other stuff than demoscene
23:16:44 <Vorpal> I completely understand them
23:17:25 <madbrain> dunno, one guy I know in this audio dsp channel complained that the hw guy projects were usually nothing except interfacing mp3 player chips
23:17:26 <Vorpal> madbrain, ASIC demoscene would be even better
23:17:33 <Vorpal> too bad it would cost a fortune
23:17:51 <fizzie> Last year's altparty had a Cray competition -- Cray bought one of their tiny "desktop supercomputers" there -- but the participation was pretty low, and the results not so fancy. And anyway, the box was mostly unremarkable; it was just a cluster of 8 multicore Linix nodes, with a faster-than-usual network in-between.
23:17:56 <cpressey> CPU cache and dual-port RAM sound waaay too sophisticated for an 8(12?)-bit-esque gaming machine
23:18:26 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes we moved onto a more interesting topic
23:18:33 <madbrain> (1) no cache. cache is too complicated
23:18:41 <Vorpal> madbrain, read the scrollback
23:18:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, awesome idea though
23:18:52 <cpressey> madbrain: the computer I built couldn't play music. It only had 8 LEDs with which to impress the world of its powers. In my defense, though, the next output device I was going to build was going to be a sound-output-thingy
23:19:00 <madbrain> dram = cannot do multiple operations on same cycle
23:19:03 <cpressey> then i gave the computer away to a friend...
23:19:38 <madbrain> cpressey: I'm more like working on a project where I'll do an emulator but it has to be implementable IRL
23:19:40 <cpressey> Vorpal: I suspect madbrain is still on the topic of their project
23:19:55 <Vorpal> madbrain, use drum memory then
23:20:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: There was one demo with a nice-ish fluid-simulation flowy thing; that's sort of a natural match to the environment.
23:20:01 <Vorpal> then you get back to cool
23:20:22 <madbrain> naah I want to do the job of the guy who designed the atari jaguar
23:20:55 <madbrain> or most 80s/90s computer or console systems really
23:21:04 <madbrain> they're ALL designed around DRAM access cycles
23:21:17 <Vorpal> I prefer more exotic systems
23:21:40 <cpressey> custom amiga coppers back when routing was done *by humans*... sweet
23:22:05 <madbrain> like, I could design a nice system around 4mb of 32bit or 64bit fast page DRAM
23:22:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, err, I'm pretty sure routing been done my machines longer than amiga existed
23:22:17 <cpressey> madbrain: well, around DRAM access cycles and/or some convenient multiple of the video signal :)
23:22:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, I read about machines doing wire routing
23:22:38 <cpressey> Vorpal: the custom amiga chips were routed by humans.
23:22:57 <madbrain> cressey: yeah, what they did is round dram access time to nearest multiple of the NTSC color carrier :D
23:23:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, but mechanical wire-wrapping-and-routing tools existed for longer
23:23:14 <madbrain> that's why the same clock rates appear in the NES, SNES and amiga
23:23:19 <cpressey> there's a whole story about how HAM mode was on the chopping block, but if they took it out, there'd just be a big hole in the middle of the chip where it was anyway!
23:23:50 <cpressey> Vorpal: I'm not sure what this has to do with wire-wrapping... I'm talking about the chip itself
23:24:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh on the IC level?
23:25:00 <Vorpal> cpressey, still what is HAM mode?
23:25:14 <cpressey> Vorpal: I refer you to wikipedia page about the amiga computer
23:25:39 <Vorpal> cpressey, will do later then. I'd hate to do it in w3m
23:25:46 <Vorpal> and I don't have X running atm
23:26:26 <fizzie> HAM's very uniqueness makes it awesome; I'm not very sure I'd like to be writing code for it though.
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23:30:35 <fizzie> If you want a short summary: it's a mode where the the pixels either select a color from a palette (as usual), but alternatively they can also mean "set only R (or G/B) value and keep the others from the previous pixel", so that you get sort-of n-bit color in something like n/2 bits per pixel. At the expense of making abrupt color-changes a bit messy.
23:31:12 <fizzie> HAM being short for "hold-and-modify".
23:40:53 <oklofok> "<cpressey> Note that I tend to be rather anti-Pop-Mathematics, and anti-Pop-Science, and anti-Pop-* in general." <<< pop = bullshit
23:42:06 <oklofok> "<oerjan> "fuck" is a perfectly valid swearword in colloquial norwegian, me thinks" <<< i tend to use it a lot, was a bit more embarrassing when i went to scotland
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23:43:08 <nooga> anyone played such thing as Colobot? :D
23:45:07 <oklofok> "<nooga> anyone played such thing as Colobot? :D" <<< no
23:47:27 <oklofok> colon is where your ass comes from right
23:48:09 <oklofok> bots are automatical humans
23:52:51 * oerjan read that as bots are automatically humans
23:54:42 <Gregor> `addquote <oklofok> colon is where your ass comes from right
23:54:59 <HackEgo> 219|<oklofok> colon is where your ass comes from right
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00:10:04 <nooga> you can't even count
00:10:16 <nooga> and you call yourself a mathematician
00:14:36 <cpressey> HAM: the graphics mode of the greenish fringe.
00:15:11 <cpressey> If you were a true artist, though, you could work with the medium...
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00:46:18 <cpressey> i'm not quite following the convention in use, it seems
00:47:52 <cpressey> madbr: i had a thought while walking home... you could implement double-buffering in hardware
00:48:05 <cpressey> even frames read video from bank 1... odd frames, bank 2
00:48:16 <cpressey> then main CPU can write to the other bank with no contention
00:48:41 <cpressey> (for some value of "no contention")
00:50:13 <nooga> how do you guys like Go ?
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00:56:48 <madbr> cpressey: that's not a bad scheme but that means you have like 3 separate DRAM banks
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01:01:04 <madbr> cpressey: would be good for something like an architecture based around the Cold Fire (modern 68k variant for embedded platforms)
01:04:22 <cpressey> madbr: yeah, thinking some more, the easiest way to get "no contention" is to really have two seperate buses. pretty wasteful...
01:11:37 <nooga> i'm looking for a name for fast regexp engine
01:43:44 <cpressey> nooga: um... SuperZippyMatchMatchLib ?
01:44:35 <madbr> I'm not sure how much "no contention" is worth, especially in a system based around fast page ram
01:47:43 <nooga> i think that i finally made something useful
01:48:28 <nooga> optimizing jit compiler for regexp, how cool is that
01:50:50 <Gregor> That ... actually is useful.
01:50:53 <Gregor> What language is it in?
01:56:40 <Gregor> What architectures does it JIT to?
01:56:46 <Gregor> How much regex does it support?
01:56:51 <nooga> i think i could make an interface simmilar to pcre's one and then try to compile projects using pcre with my awesome lib
01:57:05 <Gregor> I'd integrate it into Plof.
01:57:29 <nooga> i'll release the src soon
01:57:38 <nooga> oh, and it's only for x86 for now
01:57:47 <Gregor> Add x86_64 and you've got everything :P
01:58:07 <nooga> maybe someone will help with that ;]
02:00:21 <cpressey> nooga: That's... Frege'n cool :)
02:11:56 <cpressey> madbr: Well, I like multi-processor architectures (oldskool ones, I mean), but I'd rather not think about coordination.
02:12:11 <cpressey> basically i just like thinking about different ways you could do a system
02:13:30 <madbr> dunno, I grew up on VGA which fixed all of that
02:14:15 <cpressey> Neither here nor there: you could have one processor A simulate memory for another processor B. A memory fetch from A actually goes to B's input ports. B suspends A until it has computed whatever it wants A to think it read. then it makes it available to A. very useful stuff!
02:14:29 <cpressey> hm, i mixed up A and B there didn't I
02:16:56 <cpressey> Here's one thing I wanted to try but probably never will
02:18:21 <cpressey> Get an old PC, one with a parallel printer port. Wire up a couple of the pins to produce NTSC-level signals (-0.5, 0.5, 1.5V? It's something like that, but I don't remember.) Then implement in software (x86 assembly) a driver which produces an image. The project would be called "PPTV", for "Parallel Port TV"
02:18:42 <cpressey> All of the hsyncs and vsyncs done in software, that is
02:19:12 <cpressey> the hardware is trivial, just a couple of transistors and resistors
02:20:17 <madbr> you'd need some device that outputs at some really high rate no?
02:20:51 <cpressey> Well... I admit the parallel port might not be quite fast enough... or at least you would have wiiide pixels
02:21:46 <madbr> I'd try to hack a vga mode
02:22:56 <pikhq> cpressey: Oh, the parallel port ought to be fast enough, presuming you're intending to produce unmodulated signals.
02:23:07 <pikhq> Granted, you're probably not going to get high resolution.
02:23:35 <madbr> since vga has a bunch of timing registers, you could probably get a mode where you write raw ntsc signal to the vga green channel
02:23:50 <madbr> then remap that channel to appropriate voltages
02:24:09 <pikhq> And technically you're not going to be producing an NTSC signal, but rather a system M signal.
02:24:34 <pikhq> (I highly doubt you'll get color)
02:24:38 <cpressey> pikhq: unmodulated in the sense of B&W? yes. i figure, on old machines, the parallel port is basically as fast as the CPU (modulo the CIA chip... no it's call the 8??? chip on PCs... yes well ok)
02:24:55 <pikhq> cpressey: Unmodulated in the sense of not on radio waves.
02:25:38 <madbr> vga is 0 to 0.7v, composite is 0 to 1.073v :/
02:25:39 <pikhq> System M is the black & white standard most commonly used alongside NTSC color.
02:25:51 <cpressey> pikhq: um, no. Just (what I thought was) a pure NTSC driver signal. If it was a broadcast, it would be, *after* it has been received and ... decoded or whatever television would call that.
02:26:16 <pikhq> cpressey: NTSC = color.
02:26:32 <cpressey> pikhq: Really. Then that book I read was seriously fudging terminology.
02:26:38 <pikhq> cpressey: And yes, that's called "unmodulated", meaning it's not been modulated onto a radio wave.
02:27:41 <cpressey> at any rate, it would have to be under DOS, because I wouldn't trust anything else to let me frob the parallel port in realtime.
02:28:05 <madbr> I suggest: hack a 640x240 256 color 60hz vga mode, then reduce vga blank to as short as possible so that it correspons to NTSC sync
02:28:07 <pikhq> NTSC is a color standard. One could quite feasibly stick it onto, say, system I (used in the UK) or system L (France)...
02:28:18 <cpressey> what I mean is, NO, I was not planning to do this IN PYTHON ON NETBSD.
02:28:32 <pikhq> Much like you can stick PAL onto system M.
02:28:38 <pikhq> (which is done in Brazil)
02:28:41 <madbr> might be better with 1280x240 16 color mode, dunno
02:29:01 <cpressey> /join #tarpits_and_unix_and_modhacks_and_topology
02:31:56 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and Britain's old 405 line system A, which was broadcast with (at varying times) NTSC, PAL, and SECAM.
02:32:17 <cpressey> madbr: what you suggest sounds... difficult for the likes of myself.
02:32:49 <cpressey> pikhq: I could seriously never wrap my head around the colour signal transmission. It requires, like, sine waves an' stuff.
02:33:03 <cpressey> Sorry, not transmission. I mean, even unmodulated.
02:33:18 <cpressey> Then again, I alredy know I'm getting my info from questionable sources
02:33:27 <cpressey> that are leading me to believe that NTSC includes B&W.
02:34:09 <cpressey> Although, the NTSC colour bars test pattern is pretty cool, and imagining how to produce it with an analog circuit... difficult but not impossible.
02:34:12 <pikhq> *Aaaaaaaaarrrgh*. NTSC is a standards body, one of their standards includes system M TV.
02:34:20 <pikhq> Meaning one could say NTSC includes B&W.
02:34:49 <cpressey> IT WAS A BOOK ON PIC MICROCONTROLLERS, OK?
02:34:53 <pikhq> Of course, this is about on par with saying ISO includes tea, so.
02:36:28 * pikhq looks at digital broadcast standards and sighs
02:36:40 <pikhq> Why couldn't we have just gotten a single bloody standard?
02:37:27 <pikhq> But *noooo*. US, Japan, and China had to make their own.
02:37:44 <pikhq> And then people had to adopt them.
02:40:13 <madbr> cpressey: yeah dunno if it's possible still
02:40:47 <pikhq> ... And Brazil had to be different too.
02:40:58 <pikhq> Adopt the Japanese standard and then use a different codec.
02:46:34 <cpressey> And yet, if *I* devise *my* own standard and start broadcasting using it, the FCC will be on my ass. Makes no sense.
02:47:26 <pikhq> I do declare that the technology behind TV broadcasting sucks.
02:47:48 <cpressey> I dunno, is there even such thing as Ham TV? As in Ham Radio, not as in hold-and-modify mode.
02:48:09 <cpressey> Cool then. ONE thing makes sense.
02:48:25 <pikhq> Common TV sets can actually pick them up.
02:48:45 <pikhq> The ham band used for it happens to be CATV channels 57 through 60.
02:51:25 <cpressey> values of β will give rise to dom!
02:53:12 <pikhq> Really, it's kinda comical that we're still using radio waves for *TV*...
02:53:42 <pikhq> Wouldn't it make sense to make good broadband universal, and then stop using giant swathes of precious radio space for television?
03:00:01 <cpressey> pikhq: Yes, but I have to ask: what else would we use it for? More... radio?
03:00:37 <pikhq> cpressey: INTERNET
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03:00:53 <pikhq> Replace the entire used radio spectrum with IP.
03:01:28 <madbr> but then the mobile phone guys will want that spectrum too
03:01:43 * cpressey can't stand "Mike in the Morning"
03:01:51 <pikhq> madbr: Fuck the phone network.
03:02:05 <pikhq> It shall be the only data transmission system.
03:02:58 <madbr> sure but good luck convincing the mobile phone guys to give up their money printing machine
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03:14:13 <cpressey> I'm broken. Please show this to someone who can fix can fix
03:24:38 <cpressey> JOBCNTRL ER 2211 : IT'S NOT NICE TO FOOL POP! >he 2211 YOU JUST TRIED TO FAKE-OUT MOTHER NATURE, AND SHE CAUGHT YOU! SUPER-VULCAN NOW HAS YOUR NAME ON HIS ENEMY LIST, AND YOU CAN BE CERTAIN THAT FUTURE ATTEMPTS TO RESOURCE LFN 0,3,OR 6 WILL RESULT IN YOUR BEING ABORTED, SPINDLED, MANGLED, FOLDED, PUNCHED, DELETED, AND DEALLOCATED.
03:32:49 <cpressey> .. line 2706 compiler error: schain botch
03:33:21 <cpressey> Aye, schain botch! Mnae aile fnalga pschain!
04:13:11 <cpressey> soooo. thue.c updates the state of the program with 'sprintf("...", dataspace, ...)'
04:13:39 <cpressey> good thing dataspace is statically defined to be 16K bytes
04:15:07 <cpressey> (oh and it doesn't compile with DICE C under AmigaOS 1.3 either. DICE likes to generate assembly that it can
04:17:06 <pikhq> Have you considered means of suicide?
04:18:40 <cpressey> pikhq: I'm broken. Please show this to someone who can fix can fix
04:18:47 <pikhq> I hear se'hůku is quite effective.
04:20:21 <cpressey> the cure for the DICE C woes is apparently to not have such big static datas. just malloc instead.
04:20:45 <pikhq> Data is plural you fool.
04:24:48 <madbr> isn't it usually used as a mass noun
04:25:12 <madbr> like "that's a lot of mud" "that's a lot of data"
04:25:26 <cpressey> the cure for the DICE C woes is apparently to have not such big static muds.
04:25:46 <madbr> pikhq: data is plural in latin
04:26:16 <cpressey> also, random() is not ANSI C? it is just widely supported? blargh.
04:26:50 <pikhq> madbr: Okay, fine, mass noun.
04:26:56 <cpressey> istr the lowest few bits of rand() are bad news
04:26:58 <pikhq> Though singular is datum dammit.
04:28:59 <cpressey> why not just reverse the order of bits being returned from rand()
04:29:17 <cpressey> well let's see how bad it is first
04:31:53 <madbr> in english I bet analysis would show that "data" is already more or less singular
04:32:22 <madbr> ex: "the data is very good" vs "the data are very good"
04:32:55 <cpressey> it's a mass noun. "the water is very good" and "we don't have enough water on this yet"
04:33:49 <cpressey> actually damn, everything can be mass-nouned
04:33:59 <cpressey> "we don't have enough mousepad yet"
04:33:59 <madbr> most latin plurals don't tranlate to english
04:33:59 <Gregor> I have three water in my one data.
04:34:21 <madbr> * "the orange is very good" ? (when talking about many)
04:34:49 <madbr> cpressey: that's at minimum idiomatic
04:35:31 <madbr> yeah I guess for those guys everything is mass noun-able
04:35:51 <madbr> though there's some semantic transformation going in there
04:35:52 <cpressey> once "product" is a mass noun, any specialization of it can be too... it's only a little awkward
04:36:30 <madbr> cpressey: nah, I don't think the fact that "product" can be mass-noun trickles down
04:37:27 <lament> madbr: like cpressey said its a mass noun
04:37:37 <lament> which is why "a data" sounds ridiculous
04:37:39 <madbr> lament: yep. still singular though.
04:38:06 <lament> singular/plural doesn't apply to mass nouns
04:38:13 <lament> but "a datum" is still an English word
04:38:23 <cpressey> allocate you these datas more quicker
04:38:28 <madbr> see: "the waters were very calm this morning"
04:38:38 <madbr> but yeah it's very unusual for mass nouns to be plural
04:39:10 <madbr> "the muds are different. this one is clean, but the other one is radioactive."
04:40:16 <cpressey> screw it. let's all just talk like jar-jar binks
04:40:46 <madbr> I wish people stopped trying to import latin plurals/singulars in english
04:45:12 <cpressey> http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-zen1.htm
04:50:19 <cpressey> soooooooo.... getline() in DICE C apparently sucks in the ENTIRE FILE.
05:01:24 <Gregor> Once you tack on libgc, C is pretty much great, actually.
05:01:29 <Gregor> But non-GC'd languages are nastysauce.
05:02:38 <cpressey> soooooo.... thue.c appears to take exactly ONE command-line flag, for some reason. either -l, OR -r, OR -d. NO COMBOS.
05:04:36 <pikhq> Gregor: libgc even makes up for a lot of the sins of C++.
05:05:11 <cpressey> AND the command line switches are NOT preceded with a -. They just ARE THERE. Sorry, SWITCH, plural.
05:05:16 <Gregor> pikhq: Just get rid of references and C++ is starting to look OK!
05:06:25 <Gregor> cpressey: At least they're not preceded by a / ;)
05:09:00 <cpressey> Gregor: I used + for some 'internal' switches at work today, to not conflict with - or -- ... taking a lesson from Mr. Povray, there.
05:09:30 <Gregor> Some things use + to mean "enable" and - to mean "disable"
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05:10:04 <cpressey> Gregor: right, so I concluded it wasn't utter BLASPHEMY for me to use it. still, i fear the code review.
05:10:24 <pikhq> Aaaaaaw. The Prop. 8 case won't be appealed.
05:10:44 <cpressey> hopefully it will include "no silly, THIS is how you put hooks into the command line options"
05:10:48 <pikhq> I wanted that to hit the SCOTUS and become a nation-wide ruling.
05:11:33 <cpressey> Gregor: The possibility of using / flitted through my head for 0.81 seconds
05:11:46 <pikhq> (as Prop. 8 was overthrown on the basis that banning gay marriage was against the US constitution, that would make it legal throughout the US.)
05:11:58 <Gregor> cpressey: How about *? %?
05:12:35 <pikhq> ... And it would've been almost impossible for it to be decided any other way, because of how appeals work.
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05:20:16 <Gregor> pikhq: PERHAPS why they didn't appeal it :P
05:20:30 <Gregor> pikhq: However, gay marriage would still be unrecognized in Texas.
05:20:45 <Gregor> Since Texas' law is perfectly equal-rights.
05:25:18 <pikhq> Gregor: It would be appealed by the State of California.
05:26:11 <pikhq> Oh, wait. The Supreme Court of California is just not *ordering* the State of California to appeal it.
05:26:15 <pikhq> They still have the option.
05:26:24 <pikhq> ... To appeal it and defend it horribly (as it already has been)
05:27:19 <Gregor> Heh, if precedent is set nationwide, A) yay another Rowe-v-Wade debacle for 100 years, B) this country approaches tolerable :P
05:27:44 <Gregor> I never remember that spelling
05:35:20 <pikhq> Gregor: It's technically already nationwide precedent, even though the ruling is not *in effect* outside of California.
05:35:26 <pikhq> You see, it was made in a federal court.
05:35:36 <pikhq> BTW, the jurisdiction of courts is confusing.
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05:38:45 <cpressey> ummm, la cucaracha? enrinyes. who writes C code like this? good night
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12:15:18 <nooga> must.... c.... code!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHH
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15:29:35 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:30:02 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.3201 \ wunderbar_emporium
15:32:08 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies/ \ bin/ \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1/ \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste/ \ poetry.txt \ quotes/ \ qw.pl \ share/ \ tmpdir.3483/ \ wunderbar_emporium/
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15:59:05 <fizzie> Were you studying something? If so, maybe you could get course credits for that.
15:59:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I could certainly get something in physics for it..
16:00:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Since my best plan involved piloting an RC plane with a sticky net on it and swiping the hat.
16:01:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think that a zelda oot style hookshot might work
16:01:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Besides, it carries a not insignificant risk of killing the Pope, and I would get in lots of trouble for that.
16:01:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, security arrangement would have time to react with a RC plane. They aren't very fast
16:02:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also just restore from last save if you fuck it up?
16:02:57 <fizzie> The popeguards might also react rather violently if you pull out anything even remotely gun-like and point it at the pope.
16:03:33 <fizzie> I'd go with a swarm of trained monkeys. Anything can be improved with some monkeys, after all.
16:03:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "Didleidleidleidleidle... duh duh duh duh!" "You got the *Pope's Hat*!"
16:04:09 <Vorpal> hm... how are those sci-fi tractor beams supposed to work? Maybe you could invent that in reality
16:04:36 <Vorpal> hm, sounds a bit non-specific
16:04:50 <fizzie> "In Star Trek, tractor beams are imagined to work by placing a target in the focus of a subspace/graviton interference pattern created by two beams from an emitter. When the beams are manipulated correctly the target is drawn along with the interference pattern. The target may be moved toward or away from the emitter by changing the polarity of the beams."
16:04:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless I'm careful, I could end up stealing the Pope, and that would be pretty annoying.
16:05:09 <fizzie> That Wikipedia quote doesn't exactly tell you how to build one, though.
16:05:47 <fizzie> Maybe you could go to Radio Shack or something and buy a subspace/graviton emitter kit.
16:05:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, invent time travel, and go back in time and insert a metal bit in the hat when it is being manufactured. Then go back to now and use a strong magnet
16:06:30 <Phantom_Hoover> However, I may end up stealing the Popemobile and a few of the Pope guards' guns.
16:07:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah, go back in time and change the blueprints to use non-magnetic material
16:07:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hire MacGyver?
16:08:15 <fizzie> Time travel always also has the "meet yourself and cause a spontaneous reality failure, or some other technobabble" risk.
16:08:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Would need very strong glue to snag the hat, and may end up snagging his head as well.
16:09:49 <fizzie> oklofok: But you get those "frequent flier" complimentary years if you do a lot of it.
16:09:57 <Phantom_Hoover> And then I come back to the present and everyone is a giant iguana or something.
16:10:04 <Sgeo> http://qntm.org/golden
16:11:03 <Phantom_Hoover> There are plenty of stories where time travel malfunctions aren't the plot driver.
16:11:47 <fizzie> Before proceeding with the plot, you must install the plot driver. Do you want Windows to search Windows Update for it, or have disk?
16:12:28 * Sgeo steals fizzie's hat
16:12:31 <oklofok> i mean when i watch a movie with any sort of scifi in it, i have to constantly stop thinking about some detail, because it simply does not make sense, so no use trying to find any; when time travel is introduced, i instantly *have to stop thinking altogether*, there's a special time travel watching mode where i just say "ok" no matter what happens, it's like they suddenly showed 10 minutes of black screen
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16:13:12 <oklofok> when there's time travel involved, absolutely nothing makes sense
16:13:31 <fizzie> Sgeo: For hat-stealing, Gregor is probably a better target.
16:13:44 <Sgeo> Hmm, good point
16:13:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, are you and Gregor sufficiently near to attempt a hat heist?
16:13:57 * Sgeo bodyswaps fizzie and Gregor
16:16:18 <Sgeo> SG-1 seems to use two incompatible models of time-travel
16:16:48 <cpressey1> oklofok: I forget everything from the past half hour and assume I'm watching a different movie
16:17:17 <Sgeo> What about movies like Primer? (Note: I haven't watched Primer)
16:17:29 <cpressey1> actually no, i don't really mind time travel in fiction, except when it's amateurish
16:19:28 <oklofok> i don't mind time travel if it's in say futurama, but the more it tries to be non-amateurish the more bullshitty it gets
16:19:41 <oklofok> or at least i haven't seen anyone do it in a remotely sensible way
16:19:53 <cpressey1> yeah, that might be a better way to put it.
16:20:12 <oklofok> you mean, saying the exact opposite of what you said might be better put?
16:20:14 <cpressey1> like if you try to build a serious *plot* around it... fail
16:20:44 <cpressey1> oklofok: i am one dangerously confused entity!
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16:22:41 <oklofok> i don't know what primer is but is it the last one of xkcd's "where do the dudes go" graphs in that one comic?
16:23:05 <oklofok> also i have no uni tomorrow :(
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17:31:14 * Sgeo makes some antilithium for Phantom_Hoover
17:32:16 <fizzie> Here, have some dilithium crystals.
17:32:45 <Sgeo> But I think, in context, "antilithium" is funnier
17:35:34 <fizzie> Is this a new thing that Google's actual main search page does the searching as you type, without waiting for form-submitting? (And can you opt-out without being google-inlogged?)
17:38:11 <Sgeo> It's new, don't know about opting out
17:38:25 <Sgeo> FWIW, it won't show NSFW results
17:38:30 <Sgeo> Unless you press enter
17:40:08 <fizzie> It's a bit annoying on the not-slow-but-a-tiny-bit-sluggish-still Mobile Firefox (or whatever Fennec's official name was).
17:40:32 <Sgeo> "If you don't want to see results as you type, you can turn off Google Instant by clicking the link next to the search box on any search results page, or by visiting your Preferences page."
17:40:50 <Sgeo> Also, maybe google.co.uk or some other domain
17:41:13 <fizzie> Oh, they even have a name for it.
17:41:14 <Sgeo> Yeah, try google.co.uk
17:42:36 <fizzie> The tiny "instant is on" toggle helped, fortunately.
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17:50:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So a dilithium crystal is nearly a contradiction in terms.
17:55:37 <Sgeo> Surely at absolute zero, it's solid?
17:55:45 <Sgeo> Hypothetically?
17:56:07 <Sgeo> Or, um, maybe not
17:56:19 <Sgeo> Are there things that simply cannot be solidified, no matter how cold?
17:57:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Dilithium is a form of lithium; if it is cooled to 0K, it will just turn into metallic lithium.
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17:58:02 <Sgeo> Maybe a dilithium crystal is just gaseous dilithium contained in a container
17:58:13 <Sgeo> Abuse of the word crystal sure, but
17:58:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (There are things that can't be solidified at 1 atm; helium is one)
17:59:22 <Phantom_Hoover> And to be called a crystal, something needs to have a crystalline structure.
17:59:36 <Slereah> Bounce a graviton particle beam off the main reflector dish
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18:13:07 <fizzie> "By the 2360s, it was possible to recrystallize dilithium while it was still enclosed in the warp core's dilithium articulation frame using a theta-matrix compositor." http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Dilithium
18:15:19 <fizzie> It's an element, a member of the hypersonic series, atomic weight 87, symbol Dt.
18:17:45 <fizzie> Yes, but this is Star Trek. Just look at http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Table_of_Elements
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18:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> That Star Trek periodic table reminds me of the "Look Around You" one.
18:19:44 <Slereah> Why are there three elements #1
18:19:50 <fizzie> That was atomic weight of 87, not the number of protons.
18:20:15 <Slereah> "Disneyium is a chemical element listed on the Table of Elements. It is a member of the Mega series. (TNG: "Rascals") "
18:20:26 <Slereah> One of the stupidest TNG episode
18:22:11 <Slereah> I am kind of amazed, really
18:22:28 <Slereah> Usually, SF series tend to avoid atomic numbers already used
18:22:34 <Slereah> So it's usually at least >100
18:22:41 <Slereah> But they just went for stupid
18:23:04 <fizzie> "One explanation [for the silly table] is that with the discovery of subspace, chemistry underwent a revolution to translate the subspace properties of elements." Yes, I guess that purely technically speaking is "one explanation", but...
18:23:10 <Phantom_Hoover> With SCIENCE, I conclude that dilithium is somewhere around strontium.
18:24:32 <fizzie> "exitstageleft", symbol Sn.
18:25:21 <Slereah> Apparently, most of those were shown in Rascals
18:25:25 <Slereah> And it was a silly episode
18:25:32 <fizzie> Yes, it's normally tin; there's the "Snapple" joke.
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18:44:47 <Sgeo> Factor has monads
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18:54:45 <Sgeo> I have no idea
18:55:06 <cpressey> Whatever they are has got to be better than... THE OOB BIT
19:00:22 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, are you and Gregor sufficiently near to attempt a hat heist?
19:01:33 <madbr> sgeo: I bet most ppl in here are too
19:01:57 <Sgeo> Well, we urgently need to figure out what the h- prefix means, then
19:02:13 <oerjan> <oklofok> i don't know what primer is but is it the last one of xkcd's "where do the dudes go" graphs in that one comic?
19:02:13 <Sgeo> What's the OOB bit?
19:02:40 <oerjan> i vaguely recall a mention that it has an unusually well-thought out and consistent model of time travel
19:02:54 <oerjan> or something like that
19:03:52 <oerjan> hatheists hate history
19:04:19 <alise> * Sgeo is a hatheist
19:04:19 <alise> <madbr> sgeo: I bet most ppl in here are too
19:04:38 <alise> (also, possibly, but definitely not everyone)
19:04:45 <oerjan> alise: NO YOU FAIL AT READING COMPREHENSION
19:05:12 <alise> oerjan: you are mistaking me for another :)
19:05:33 <oerjan> well it _might_ be madbr did too, but you are assuming he did when you say "fail"
19:06:27 <alise> oerjan: well my heuristics had all the data on madbr plugged in and it spat out that it's likely madbr merely thought Sgeo was making a typo
19:06:45 <madbr> alise: you're hristian? :D
19:06:50 <alise> of course, I'm not sure my heuristics are good at figuring out what someone else thinks someone else is thinking
19:06:50 <oerjan> you and your euro hysterics
19:07:00 <alise> madbr: okay, i may have been wrong :D
19:07:41 <Gregor> Posted on Facebook a while ago:
19:08:02 <Gregor> "Atheism is to religion as baldness is to hair color." (Me:) "Agnosticism is a hat."
19:08:07 <Gregor> And now you're making THE SAME COMPARISON.
19:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, I might just need you to stand around wearing a hat while I fire a rocket at your head.
19:08:48 <alise> oerjan: IN LATIN HOW DO I TURN "X" INTO "BELIEVER IN THE EXISTENCE OF X"
19:08:50 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Why would I accept that duel when I get nothing if I win :P
19:09:12 * Gregor weighs your one hat against his 34.
19:09:23 <alise> Gregor: It is the greatest hat.
19:09:27 <Sgeo> You get whatever Phantom_Hoover steals
19:09:28 <alise> It is the Hat of Power.
19:09:29 <oerjan> alise: adding -an suffix might be a good tip
19:09:43 <Gregor> e.g. a thetan is one who believes in thet.
19:09:43 <alise> oerjan: so [god]an === theist?
19:09:54 <Sgeo> Oh, wait, was that fizzie?
19:10:09 <oerjan> possibly with an -i- in between, although that's probably from the root vowel
19:10:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I made it out of a sick bowl and a ribbon from a chocolate box IN A CAVE, WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!
19:10:58 <oerjan> Gregor: no -t- in either of the parts
19:11:04 <alise> Then I'm an aatheistian.
19:11:07 <alise> I don't believe in atheists.
19:11:40 <oerjan> alise: of course people are likely to just borrow the greek -ist anyhow
19:12:26 <Gregor> alise: I'm an aaatheistianan. I don't believe in aatheistians.
19:12:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, OK, can you use your extensive knowledge of hats to help me steal the Pope's hat?
19:12:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ... "no" *wink*
19:12:54 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I certainly couldn't do THAT on a publicly logged channel.
19:12:57 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: OR AT ALL
19:12:57 <alise> I'm Aaaatheistianianian, and here's my friend, Ian Ian Ian.
19:13:08 <alise> His middle name is Aaaatheist.
19:13:18 <alise> He's a theist, you see.
19:13:28 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: actually people without a sense of smell
19:13:42 <madbr> is there any practical differences between atheists and agnostics anyhow?
19:14:14 <alise> some of the former are really obnoxious; most of the latter are ridiculously holier-than-thou, and don't understand how the burden of proof works
19:14:15 <Gregor> madbr: Both terms have "weak" and "strong" forms. The "weak" forms are roughly equivalent, the "strong" forms are contradictory.
19:15:02 <oerjan> Gregor: you know after this discussion you just _have_ to get a pope hat, and start wearing it
19:15:10 <Gregor> I'm apparently of the ridiculously holier-than-thou camp :P
19:15:13 <madbr> alise: that's just a difference in attitude
19:15:15 <Gregor> And I AM holier than thou.
19:15:45 <alise> Gregor: The-only-even-vaguely-sane-variety-of atheism: "From all the information we have, I find it incredibly unlikely that a god exists, and also consider that even if he possibly does, it is best to live as if he did not." The-only-even-vaguely-sane-variety-of agnosticism: "We cannot possibly know whether God exists or not! Therefore, just like my stance on Russell's teapot and the invisible pink unicorn, I will sit FIRMLY on the FENCE OF INDECISION!"
19:16:02 <alise> (Yes, I'm biased.)
19:16:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Read, it's very interesting. He's wrong about a lot of things and such, but, yes, read.
19:16:22 <Gregor> alise: Strong agnostics are on no fence. They merely accept futility.
19:16:25 <alise> It's definitely a worthy read.
19:16:31 <alise> Gregor: Oh, I see, you mean nihilism.
19:16:42 <Gregor> alise: Contextual nihilism :)
19:16:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes -- be smarter than me, and don't buy a paperback edition.
19:16:55 <madbr> yeah those are differences on paper
19:17:04 <madbr> I'm talking about differences in practice
19:17:21 <alise> madbr: in practice, they're just the same as moderate, non-irritating Christians.
19:17:26 <alise> i.e. you won't notice.
19:17:30 <alise> if you ask, see above.
19:17:35 <alise> so it's a bit of a silly question
19:18:00 <alise> any reasonable-ish religious or non-religious person will behave according to their personality, and assuming identical personalities, the religion shouldn't have an effect.
19:18:15 <madbr> but moderate non-irritating christians believe no?
19:18:21 <alise> indeed the US is uniquely privileged among Westernish countries in having batshit crazy people whose religion affects them like that
19:18:32 <alise> madbr: I have provided the differences in beliefs, and the differences in personalities.
19:18:35 <alise> There is no more to provide.
19:18:41 <Gregor> alise: Oh don't pretend like you don't have them in the UK too.
19:19:14 <alise> Gregor: I meant to say "almost uniquely".
19:19:29 <alise> Gregor: I'm not particularly proud of my country. :P
19:20:19 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Are there things that simply cannot be solidified, no matter how cold? <-- helium, supposedly, although this can be changed by adding pressure
19:20:48 <alise> helium is illegal in all civilised countries
19:21:27 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: They don't have as much influence as the media portrays them to have here, they're just louder.
19:22:07 <oerjan> "Unlike any other element, helium will remain liquid down to absolute zero at normal pressures."
19:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> But you have had presidents who have openly stated that they view godlessness as inherently wrong, no?
19:23:19 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yes ... I don't know how recently, nor do I want to check because that scares me X-D
19:24:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile I plan to steal the Pope's hat with little resistance.
19:24:30 <oerjan> here in norway the foreign minister gets slightly raised eyebrows for being openly christian ;D
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19:25:03 <Gregor> I just signed up for my visa.
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19:25:13 <Gregor> I could probably still work at Purdue from afar ...
19:26:35 <oerjan> btw the scandal i mentioned the other day about ministers accepting fairly large private gifts has actually ended up with one of them possibly being investigated by the police, so it may not have been _entirely_ legal (btw they quickly changed the rules so from now it definitely is _not_ allowed)
19:27:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I could live off the money from selling the Pope's hat!
19:27:49 <oerjan> and the rest of them have to give their gifts away (to their departments iirc)
19:27:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: not afaik
19:28:17 <oerjan> but then he is not precisely a frequent visitor to our protestant country (he _has_ been here)
19:28:26 <oerjan> or wait, his predecessor has
19:30:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no tuition fees in norway most places
19:30:16 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if Googling "aerodynamic properties of pope hat" will be helpful.
19:30:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: were you scottish? in which case you might even get in...
19:30:39 <pikhq> oerjan: How easy is it to learn Norwegian?
19:30:59 <oerjan> pikhq: very easy, i knew it from i was a wee child
19:31:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You're an EU citizen; piece of cake to get there.
19:31:24 <pikhq> oerjan: For non-native speakers.
19:31:28 <oerjan> (it has genders like german, but otherwise i don't think it has much that is harder than english.)
19:31:48 <oerjan> it is rather related, after all
19:32:04 <pikhq> Different branch of the Germanic languages, though.
19:32:24 <pikhq> (granted, English has borrowed massive chunks from North Germanic languages, but it's still *West* Germanic.)
19:32:41 <oerjan> it does _not_ have cases like german
19:32:50 <alise> <Gregor> I just signed up for my visa. ;; ha ha non-EU resident
19:33:07 <oerjan> nor does it have personal endings on verbs like english and german
19:33:09 <pikhq> Yes. English's lack of cases for the most part is one of those borrowings. :P
19:33:11 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I want to live in Norway now. ;; arrive, register at a police station; you're now a British citizen residing in Norway as a European citizen. you can even vote
19:33:46 <oerjan> erm vote? i thought there was _some_ delay for that, and only for local elections
19:33:48 <Sgeo> alise, why didn't you do that?
19:34:10 <oerjan> i vaguely recall 3 years, although they may have lessened it
19:34:29 <alise> oerjan: i'm pretty sure any EU citizen has the right to vote wherever they reside
19:34:31 <alise> perhaps there is a delay
19:34:38 <alise> i may be wrong, though
19:34:42 <oerjan> alise: well norway isn't strictly eu
19:35:00 <oerjan> no, it's eea or what it's called
19:35:04 <alise> Sgeo: i elided the difficult part: finding residence in Norway while in another country
19:35:10 <pikhq> alise: Norway is not EU. It's in the EEA and a member of Schengen, but not EU.
19:35:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: try Sweden.
19:35:22 <oerjan> that's the same for finding work though
19:35:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it sort of is
19:35:59 <pikhq> The UK is *partially* in the Schengen agreement.
19:36:03 <alise> it is, but not in a way that is nice
19:36:06 <oerjan> (it means we're in the common market for all but a few exceptions like agriculture)
19:36:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: but you CAN use it to go out
19:36:10 <alise> if you have a passport
19:36:13 <alise> people just can't use it to go in
19:36:19 <pikhq> It's just not part of the Schengen *Zone*.
19:36:36 <alise> The Schengen agreement is absolutely wonderful.
19:36:43 <pikhq> As an EU citizen, though, you have the right to be anywhere in the Schengen Zone.
19:36:55 <pikhq> ... And as a UK citizen, you have the right to be anywhere in the UK or Ireland.
19:36:57 <alise> Perhaps the only sane decision on immigration made in recent years.
19:37:04 <pikhq> alise: It really, truly is.
19:37:20 <Gregor> Wait, does this mean that UK citizens have free reign over the rest of the EU, but EU citizens need visas to work in the UK?
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19:37:34 <alise> Gregor: But put it this way:
19:37:40 <alise> We're fucking running away!
19:37:43 <pikhq> Though the visas are very *easy* to get for EU citizens.
19:38:04 <alise> pikhq: Which is why we have a wonderful supply of Polish people to clean our windows!</things that should never be said?>
19:38:11 <pikhq> oerjan: Apparently you need to be a Norwegian citizen to vote in parliamentary elections, but if you've been in Norway for 3 years you can vote in local elections.
19:38:30 <alise> pikhq: That sucks.
19:38:33 <pikhq> ... And the King of Norway is not a citizen.
19:38:38 <oerjan> pikhq: btw norwegian has a pretty much similar mess of phrasal verbs like english i think, just different ones.
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19:38:46 <alise> the Queen has no passport
19:38:51 <alise> as they are issued in the Queen's name
19:39:09 <alise> "So what," they reason, "is the point of having her declare herself able to travel on a piece of paper, if she could do the declaration in person?"
19:39:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise presumably wants to go to Norway to avoid the NHS, but I have no idea why Phantom_Hoover does.
19:39:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The NHS have released their grip, it seems; but I simply don't like this country much.
19:39:51 <Sgeo> alise, come to America! >:D
19:39:52 <alise> In Norway they have blackjack and hookers^W^W^Wfast internet and a saner government.
19:39:58 <alise> Sgeo: I would rather die.
19:40:35 <oerjan> <alise> Sgeo: i elided the difficult part: finding residence in Norway while in another country <-- hey do like the gypsies^Wromanians and live in a tent
19:40:51 <alise> oerjan: err romas are not romanians
19:41:08 * Phantom_Hoover decides to try to kill alise unless he goes to the US.
19:41:16 <alise> fuck gypsies though.
19:41:44 <pikhq> Oh, wait. The EEA agreement also requires free movement between members, just not with the limitation on all border checks.
19:41:52 <alise> I haven't ever read a single thing about them from any source that even attempts to contradict their image of being thieving parasites with no concern for the society they leech off of.
19:42:06 <pikhq> As such, citizens of the EU have the right to be in the UK, they just need a passport to enter.
19:42:16 <alise> pikhq: can they get a jorb though?
19:42:25 <alise> pikhq: well the difficult part is getting a passport.
19:42:29 <Sgeo> Why doesn't Sumatra embed in the browser?
19:42:34 <augur> alise: the roving ones are pretty much that
19:42:43 <augur> to varying degrees
19:42:53 <oerjan> <pikhq> ... And the King of Norway is not a citizen. <-- wait citation? he might be exempted from _voting_ by the constitution or just by custom, but i surely thought he'd be a citizen
19:42:57 <alise> Sgeo: because the netscape plugin api is a bit of a bitch and it's okay to have applications that aren't part of a browser
19:43:07 <augur> sometimes they get proper jobs and such, but its extraordinarily difficult for them to do so.
19:43:19 <alise> oerjan: the idea in monarchies is that the monarch "declares" all citizenships and whatnot
19:43:21 <pikhq> Oh, there's some paperwork involved, but it's technically not a visa, but rather a *registration*.
19:43:23 <Sgeo> Any recommendations on PDF readers that do embed in the browser?
19:43:23 <alise> so they're under their name
19:43:35 <alise> so, naturally, the monarch doesn't need to declare emself anything
19:43:44 <alise> as the whole ability to declare things rests on eir power anyway
19:43:52 <oerjan> alise: the thing is that most of those roma/gypsies in norway actually _are_ romanian citizens - they started coming when norway repealed the law against begging + romania joined eu
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19:45:13 <alise> oerjan: a law against begging sounds like a good idea; afaik the vast majority of beggers are actually very well-off...
19:45:22 <oerjan> alise: blackjack and gambling is pretty much outlawed in norway apart from the state and charity run lottery things
19:45:36 <oerjan> hookers are not outlawed, but _using_ them is
19:45:46 <oerjan> (we borrowed that last one from sweden)
19:45:52 <alise> "Have sex with me! It's only illegal for you!"
19:46:23 <pikhq> oerjan: The US, then, is somewhat more progressive. Prostitution is not against federal law, though most states make it illegal. :P
19:46:54 <pikhq> (for instance, it is perfectly legal in Nevada. ... Outside of Las Vegas.)
19:47:05 <alise> Vivaaaaa just outside Las Vegas!
19:47:06 <alise> Vivaaaaa just outside Las Vegas!
19:47:09 <alise> Vivaaa, vivaaa [etc.]
19:47:19 <oerjan> alise: as for the romas being parasite, i have a slight hunch that because of their reputation, actually honest roma would be loathe to reveal that they are so...
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19:47:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Hooray, fucked up culture.
19:47:50 <pikhq> (seriously, a culture based around being assholes to others? WTF?)
19:48:01 <alise> oerjan: well this is all from people who have had experience with them (in a reddit thread; anyone will defend anything in a reddit thread, so the fact that they weren't...)
19:48:16 <alise> oerjan: so presumably not self-identified, i don't think thiefs stop around to proclaim their heritage
19:48:33 <alise> [[Roma live often in depressed squatter communities with very high unemployment, while only some are fully integrated in the society. However, in some cases—notably the Kalderash group in Romania, who work as traditional coppersmiths—they have prospered.]]
19:48:45 <alise> *thieves, not thiefs
19:48:57 <alise> I imagine the decent ones mostly /actually live in Romania/.
19:48:57 <pikhq> alise: And BTW. In the US, beggers are either very well-off or very, very poor. Because there is basically no safety net in place.
19:49:22 <alise> pikhq: What I have read suggests that most begging is done by well-off people who make a fortune off it.
19:49:38 <alise> (and most of the /rest/ is probably spent on alcohol)
19:50:00 <pikhq> Because our solution to homelessness is to pretend it's not a problem.
19:50:05 <alise> pikhq: I read an article from a Toronto newspaper with mixed results; some people actually used it for reasonable things like food and clothes, (it was a prepaid credit card) others spent it on booze and shit like that.
19:50:08 <pikhq> Or say "well, they should work harder".
19:50:39 <oerjan> alise: from next month the city of trondheim will require registration of beggars - they previously did than in bergen and the number of beggars greatly diminished.
19:51:02 <pikhq> oerjan: Is begging actually a problem there?
19:51:08 <oerjan> pikhq: i thought i vaguely read that there was only _one_ US state where prostitution was legal, presumably nevada
19:51:08 <alise> gahaha registered beggers
19:51:18 <alise> "You're a beggar, huh? Let's see your card."
19:51:23 <alise> "Uh... I must have left it in my other pants..."
19:51:30 <alise> "Your other pants? Where do you keep them?"
19:51:38 <alise> "In my, uh, house..."
19:51:53 <alise> "Oh, well /do/ escort us there, then."
19:52:04 <alise> "The Mercedes doesn't come for another three hours..."
19:52:10 <pikhq> I mean, is it nearly impossible to walk around without tripping over one?
19:52:12 <alise> "I guess we'll just have to take the bus, then."
19:54:06 <pikhq> oerjan: Used to be legal in Rhode Island, too.
19:54:26 <oerjan> pikhq: the number of roma in the big cities is starting to become a little annoying. the only _norwegians_ who beg are basically alcoholics and drug addicts.
19:55:02 <oerjan> also there are reports that they have started territory fights...
20:04:36 <Flonk> Hey guys, I'm terrible with trigonometry, would you mind helping me for a minute?
20:05:31 <Flonk> I want to place a smaller triangle into a bigger one.
20:06:09 <Flonk> α = user input; β = 120° - α; γ = 60
20:06:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, are you having alpha and beta being the angles and a and b the sides?
20:07:21 <Flonk> http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2668/blafz.jpg
20:12:47 <Flonk> yeah, and both triangles are equilateral
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20:15:35 <oerjan> Flonk: 1 = a+b = a(1+sin beta/sin alpha), perhaps?
20:17:39 <Flonk> I want to know how c2 correlates with alpha
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20:18:41 <oerjan> use c2/sin 60 = a/sin alpha = b/sin beta
20:18:48 <Flonk> Phantom_Hoover: yes
20:19:18 <oerjan> 1 = a+b = c2(sin alpha+sin beta)/sin 60, i think
20:20:03 <oerjan> and you already know how to correlate alpha and beta
20:22:49 <oerjan> you just need to use the sine law for all it's worth there, and forget the cosine one
20:24:00 <Flonk> oerjan: so c2 = 2*(sin alpha + sin beta)
20:24:47 <cpressey> The Pope's hat, Norway, beggars, trigonometry. A most logical progression.
20:25:09 <Slereah> Let's talk about 19th century looms
20:25:25 <oerjan> Slereah: that's just knitpicking
20:25:48 <Slereah> Are you aware that the Jacquard mechanical looms were the foundation for punchcards and mechanical computing?
20:25:52 <Flonk> oerjan: oh, sin(60) is not 0.5. nevermind.
20:26:07 <Slereah> That is all I know on looms.
20:26:09 <oerjan> Flonk: um that wasn't the main problem i saw there
20:27:10 <oerjan> unless it was i who made an error
20:28:25 <cpressey> Slereah: Ralph Griswold (the inventor of Icon) maintains a web page on theories that pertain to weaving.
20:29:24 <oklofok> Slereah: i just knew some mechanical looms were a foundation. i didn't know *jacquard* looms were *the* foundation
20:29:37 <Flonk> oerjan: figured it out. Thanks a lot!
20:29:47 <Slereah> Well, Jacquard is the one I remember.
20:29:54 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, pick a thing in the real world. You can build an area of mathematics off it.
20:30:01 <ais523> I thought they were the inspiration, rather than being used directly
20:30:09 <oklofok> Slereah: i just wanted to say not everyone else knew that
20:30:18 <oklofok> because i'm a people person
20:30:29 <ais523> as in, they used punched cards to store data
20:30:39 <ais523> but used them a different way to computer punched cards
20:31:01 <Slereah> The holes changed the movements of the... looming things.
20:31:07 <Slereah> To produce different looming movements
20:31:10 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: if sex had a math, someone would've found it.
20:31:43 <Slereah> There was an xkcd strip on it
20:33:33 <oklofok> i'm sure it was just an integral over a heart
20:36:38 <alise> it was pretty much that
20:38:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but I have seen stuff on relationships and the applicability of maths thereto.
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20:40:17 * oerjan misread that last word
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20:48:12 <alise> 08:04:50 <fizzie> "In Star Trek, tractor beams are imagined to work by placing a target in the focus of a subspace/graviton interference pattern created by two beams from an emitter. When the beams are manipulated correctly the target is drawn along with the interference pattern. The target may be moved toward or away from the emitter by changing the polarity of the beams."
20:48:19 <alise> A tractor beam is an attenuated linear graviton beam used by starships and space stations to control the movement of external objects. The beam places spatial stresses on the object in specific areas allowing the ship using the tractor beam to hold the object in a fixed location or alter its position or trajectory. While tractor beams are normally used to pull objects towards the beam source, or to tow objects, they can also be set to repel objects. (TOS: "
20:48:19 <alise> Who Mourns for Adonais?") (TNG: "The Naked Now")
20:48:19 <alise> Tractor beams are generally only used at sub-warp velocities. To safely tow a vessel at warp speed, the target vessel's engines must be deactivated to avoid shearing forces against towing vessel. Using a tractor beam can be done at warp speed only if both vessels' speeds are exactly matched. (TNG: "Final Mission", "The Emissary")
20:48:23 <alise> http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tractor_beam
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20:52:34 <oklofok> "<Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but I have seen stuff on relationships and the applicability of maths thereto." <<< see it unto me too, if possible
20:53:19 <oklofok> but did you KIND OF own it
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20:54:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The analysis was all over how many dates to have in a fixed number before settling
20:55:54 * oerjan recalls something like date the first n/e and then settle with the first after that who is better than all of them
20:56:34 <oklofok> theory is something that has nothing to do with the original question
20:57:09 <oerjan> well i cannot guarantee i remember the /e right, although i _think_ so
21:00:19 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the fastest RC plane he could acquire in a week would be
21:01:39 <Sgeo> You're going to see the pope in a week? o.O
21:04:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
21:06:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:17:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Cool, I'll assassinate hi
21:19:37 <oerjan> hadde jeg hatt den hatten jeg har hatt, så hadde jeg hatt hatt
21:19:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, stealing the Pope is rather different to stealing his hat.
21:21:04 <fizzie> "pope >>hat": pope is much larger than hat?
21:24:12 * cpressey designs an esolang that steals hats
21:26:18 <Gregor> Spelled "Worcestershire"
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21:27:45 <alise> Gregor: *Pronounced
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21:41:58 <oklofok> had i had the hat i've had, i'd've had a hat
21:44:34 <oklofok> notice every second is ha[dt]
21:45:17 <oklofok> and that the sequence of non ha[dt]'s is concave down like a frown in length
21:46:04 <oklofok> is that actually how you define convexity for funcs or do you require monot.
21:46:20 * oklofok shows intense knowledgeness
21:47:02 <oklofok> and actually it's concavity, not convexity, i guess i really should just use frown/cup... :D
21:47:24 <fizzie> Turn that frown, upside down.
21:48:05 <oklofok> ...that would sort of defeat the purpose
21:48:36 <oklofok> maybe i'll just say the function is frown
21:48:54 <oerjan> convexity: f(p*x+q*y) <= p*f(x)+q*f(y) for p+q=1, p,q >= 0
21:48:57 <oklofok> although you can't really not remember concave, if you draw a cave under the hill
21:49:36 <oklofok> you meant as an answer to whether monotonic
21:50:53 <oerjan> it's the derivative which is monotone
21:51:05 <oklofok> that defines it for arbitrary vector space
21:52:20 <oerjan> you could also define it as the set {(x,y) | y >= f(x)} being a convex set, i think
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21:52:59 <oerjan> to connect those two meanings of "convex"
21:53:12 <oklofok> yeah but that doesn't help at all with concave vs convex
21:53:36 <oklofok> which is the problem; although again i guess i did ask if you require monotonicity...
21:53:54 <oerjan> no but that's just switching <= and >= in the first definition
21:54:17 <oerjan> or switching in the second but then it's still a _convex_ set
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21:54:23 <oklofok> yes, and that's why you don't remember it, it's the classic problem of memorizing a dual concept
21:55:19 <oerjan> well i guess a set is concave if it's complement is convex
21:55:44 <oklofok> so they aren't completely dual because concavity is not really "the same thing" when talking about sets instead of functions
21:56:13 <oklofok> yeah but that isn't really the isomorphism kind of duality
21:56:57 <oklofok> can you do some transformation on a vector space to make concaves convex and vice versa
21:57:14 <oklofok> yeah i don't think you can
21:57:28 <oerjan> the thing is i don't recall actually using the word "concave" much at all, at least for sets
21:57:46 <oklofok> yes, "<oklofok> so they aren't completely dual becau..." was my realizing that
21:58:06 <oklofok> and saying something different, possibly
21:58:13 <oerjan> it's convex which is the important concept in functional analysis
21:58:48 <oklofok> but it'd seem like concave functions are the more natural thing, to me
21:59:24 <oklofok> because you can have a nonnegative-codomained concave function that has finite measure support, mainly
22:00:30 <oklofok> then again i don't know much about this stuff, as you might be able to deduce
22:00:51 <oklofok> i've had a bit of functional analysis but i'm dense like that
22:00:58 <oerjan> my memory is not immensely clear itself
22:01:29 <alise> ONE DAY SCIENTISTS FROZE EVERYTHING
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22:33:12 <Sgeo> alise, is it now moral to buy Apple products again?
22:33:22 <alise> I'm not certain they actually fixed anything.
22:33:27 <alise> The comments are uncertain, or at least were.
22:33:41 <alise> Anyway, there's always another fuckup around the corner or simply not realised yet.
22:41:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:42:19 <fizzie> Was this story the original inspiration for starting to talk about tractor beams, or is this just an awesome example of synchronicity? /. "Technology: Researchers Create Real Tractor Beams"
22:43:21 <ais523> alise: do you know what happened to digg? reddit are gloating about it to an extent that they aren't bothering to explain the context
22:44:08 <fizzie> "The way it works, is by shining a hollow laser beam around some tiny glass particles. The researchers heat the air around the particles, and therefore cause the dark center of the beam to remain cool. The result is that the particles within drift to the hotter rim (into the laser beam itself), the force of the fast-moving particles within the beam will cause the other drifting particles to move back into the middle." -- that's a pretty lame tractor beam.
22:44:44 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover__: it's allegedly worse than that
22:45:51 <ais523> the implication appears to be a botched migration to new technology, plus new features that are unpopular for some reason
22:45:56 <ais523> but I don't know the details
22:46:15 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:48:22 <fizzie> ais523: Just in case you didn't notice: I improved the Befunge C-style constants prog to beat Java by two bytes, thereby proving that Befunge is objectively a ~1.7 % better languahe than Java.
22:49:06 <Sgeo> Factor was originally implemented in Java
22:49:34 <ais523> and also beating common lisp, pascal, and C~
22:49:43 <ais523> the issue with java for golfing is the amount of boilerplate
22:49:51 <ais523> nobody's tried it in scheme
22:50:05 <ais523> fizzie: what are the dimensions of that program? 23x5?
22:51:21 <ais523> umm, wait no, must be 37x3
22:51:24 <ais523> assuming newlines are optimised
22:51:32 <fizzie> Three lines, of lengths 47, 39 and 29.
22:51:43 <ais523> and I'm wrong again, because ofc the lines don't all have to have the same length
22:51:49 <ais523> I look forward to seeing it
22:51:52 <fizzie> (With two newlines in-between.)
22:51:57 <ais523> especially given that you have to do the base-conversions by hand
22:53:06 <fizzie> There's still quite many days, I might get around to tweaking some characters off. (An automatic Befunge layout optimizer would be a nice optimization problem.)
22:54:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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22:55:08 <fizzie> Looked at some old Java prog's post-mortem, it was written something like "enum B{B;{ /* code here */ }} because that way you don't need a method, just a initializer code block that's ran when the B.B instance is constructed.
22:56:46 <fizzie> I'd guess it runs that, then complains about missing main, but maybe the golf place ignores stderr?
23:01:08 <fizzie> Twas this one: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?base+convert/hallvabo_1282897073&java
23:04:21 <fizzie> And "run first, then complain" is exactly what it does: http://p.zem.fi/xxx7
23:05:27 <ais523> fizzie: it displays stderr, but ignores it
23:06:30 <ais523> can you do I/O in an enum initialiser?
23:06:45 <ais523> the fact that's even possible makes the part of me that's aware of Haskell explode
23:06:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:07:50 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the spec exactly guarantees that System.in/System.out would be sane in a static member initializer, but it does seem to work.
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23:13:18 <fizzie> It also has an "interesting" termination condition in the IO loop: "for(Scanner S=...;S==S;) ..." -- I don't quite know why *that* works, it never assigns anything to S and there's no == overloading...
23:14:01 <fizzie> Oh, it doesn't "work"; it does die in Scanner.nextInt.
23:14:39 <fizzie> But it doesn't matter since it's done at that point. So I guess it's just a fancier way to write "true".
23:15:01 <alise> <ais523> alise: do you know what happened to digg? reddit are gloating about it to an extent that they aren't bothering to explain the context
23:15:14 <oklofok> can't you leave it empty in java?
23:15:20 <oklofok> i guess that's a stupid question
23:15:20 <alise> they launched 4.0, which, due to a Retarded Design Error, ended up being an RSS feed of about 3 sites
23:15:41 <alise> almost the whole front page was filled with /links to reddit submissions' links/ (not the link itself; the link to the reddit submission)
23:15:47 <alise> not by accident, by submission
23:15:52 <alise> because even Digg users gave up
23:15:58 <ais523> someone figured out how to game the system, and it was reddit?
23:16:05 <alise> it wasn't even gaming
23:16:07 <ais523> I guess they're lucky it wasn't /b/
23:16:09 <alise> it was everyone having jumped ship
23:16:15 <alise> and only coming back to laugh at it
23:16:34 <alise> ais523: interestingly, reddit's traffic has surpassed digg even slightly before that, iirc
23:16:47 <ais523> well, that's arguably still gaming the system, just a very easy gaming of the system
23:16:47 <alise> so it's the underdog no longer :)
23:16:58 <ais523> akin to winning a nomic via persuading people to vote for your win
23:17:16 <alise> but yeah, the digg frontpage is basically worthless now
23:17:37 <fizzie> oklofok: Oh! You can, but then it refuses to compile because "initializer must be able to complete normally", and it realizes for empty (or for constant "true") that it would never halt except when an exception occurs.
23:17:57 <alise> ais523: of course, with reddit's steady decline in quality, Slashdot is probably the best option at this point
23:18:19 <ais523> I generally only read the comments, on both reddit and Slashdot
23:18:39 <fizzie> So the loop actually needs a real conditional, something that "looks like" it could be false too.
23:20:03 <ais523> you're right, unreachable code is a fatal compile error in Java
23:21:06 -!- cpressey has quit (*.net *.split).
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23:21:47 <fizzie> I've sometimes wanted to add an early "return" for quick-and-dirt debugging, and then it refused to compile until I made it something silly, like a if (1==1) return.
23:22:15 <fizzie> Dirt debugging; for us earthy fellows.
23:22:16 <alise> ais523: only reading the comments is quite a common sign of addiction :)
23:22:31 <alise> I love printf debugging.
23:22:33 <alise> it is my favourite
23:22:41 <ais523> presumably it's because the sort of people who are meant to program Java are the sort of people who would ignore an unreachable code warning
23:23:04 <ais523> alise: heh; I mostly do it when I need to waste time for some reason or another (often just to calm down after something's upset me)
23:23:06 <fizzie> This is Java, it's System.out.println debugging.
23:24:56 <fizzie> Did I ever tell you about the "MiniJava" language that our compiler course used? It had a separate statement with the syntax "System.out.println" "(" expr ")". To be "Java-compatible", you see.
23:25:30 <ais523> (especially as it's missing the semicolon)
23:25:50 <fizzie> Did I ever tell you about the "MiniJava" language that our compiler course used? It had a separate statement with the syntax "System.out.println" "(" expr ")". To be "Java-compatible", you see.
23:25:55 <fizzie> Oh, that"s probably just my fault. But still.
23:26:04 <alise> ais523: I load reddit every time I get into an idle loop.
23:26:08 <fizzie> (I keep hitting up-arrow insteas of .)
23:26:11 <alise> It is my HLT instruction.
23:26:17 <Vorpal> <ais523> you're right, unreachable code is a fatal compile error in Java <--- whaaaat?
23:26:26 <ais523> who was it here who said they started browsing Slashdot because they were bored of Slashdot
23:26:34 <ais523> (not /always/, ofc, because of the halting problem)
23:26:39 <ais523> (but when it can detect it)
23:27:05 <Vorpal> ais523, so if they improved the detection algorithm it would possibly break old code?
23:27:16 <fizzie> It doesn't try especially hard to detect it, though. (E.g. constant propagation is not done.)
23:27:21 <ais523> although arguably the old code was broken anyway
23:27:36 <Vorpal> warning yes... but fatal error? wtf
23:27:56 <fizzie> It might even be that they've explicitly spec'd the things that it is allowed to be able to detect.
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23:28:16 <ais523> fizzie: that wouldn't actually surprise me
23:29:15 <fizzie> {normal} println = 'System.out.println';
23:29:15 <fizzie> {normal} write = 'System.out.write';
23:29:15 <fizzie> {normal} read = 'System.in.read';
23:29:24 <fizzie> Oh, it had three tokens like that.
23:29:50 <pikhq> The whole thing with "random slowdowns" on my phone was apparently because Palm stuck an overzealous logging daemon on there.
23:29:52 <fizzie> | {print} println lparen expression rparen semi
23:29:52 <fizzie> {-> New statement.print(println, expression.expression)}
23:30:11 <fizzie> And then production rules like that for statement.
23:30:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, suggestion: log that logging is slow ;)
23:31:08 <pikhq> All so that there can be debugging info available.
23:34:57 <fizzie> "Every Java compiler must carry out the conservative flow analysis specified here to make sure all statements are reachable. -- The analysis takes into account the structure of statements. Except for the special treatment of while, do, and for statements whose condition expression has the constant value true, the values of expressions are not taken into account in the flow analysis."
23:35:33 <fizzie> IOW, they have indeed specified what does compile-error unreachable mean.
23:36:05 <ais523> so while(false) {x;} is allowed because the x is reachable because the false is not a constant true?
23:36:16 <ais523> um, replace the x there with something that parses
23:37:31 <alise> "The people behind VLC, quite probably the most useful media player available right now."
23:37:34 <alise> "The people behind VLC, quite probably the most useful media player available right now,"
23:37:36 <olsner_> "x;" is usually a valid statement in the braces-languages, I think ... java would probably bark at an expression-statement that doesn't have side effects though
23:37:40 <alise> --> "I have never heard of mplayer."
23:38:00 <ais523> olsner_: yep, you need parens or an = for a side-effect
23:38:12 <fizzie> ais523: No, that's another special case they didn't mention in the summary paragraph.
23:38:22 <ais523> alise: the people on #tasvideos encode with some really weird settings, etc
23:38:34 <fizzie> ais523: "The contained statement is reachable iff the while statement is reachable and the condition expression is not a constant expression whose value is false."
23:38:36 <ais523> they say that VLC is the best at getting the videos right, even though it crashes a lot
23:38:38 <alise> ais523: x.264 guys, I'll bet?
23:39:14 <ais523> alise: well, when I try to play back their .avi encodings of a 30Hz game, the video plays back double speed, and the sound at the correct speed
23:39:18 <ais523> which obviously makes them rather out-of-synch
23:39:40 <alise> they should be ashamed of theirselves :)
23:39:51 <ais523> you can put all sorts of interesting things inside it
23:40:01 <ais523> .mp4 and .mkv are more common as containers, though
23:41:29 <alise> yes, but nobody who tweaks settings like a freak would be caught dead using something as horrible-to-use as .avi
23:41:35 <alise> especially as it's quite limited, although I forget how
23:41:46 <alise> the tweakers almost always use .mkv in my experience
23:41:51 <alise> even when storing H.264
23:41:56 <alise> although some Blu-Ray rips are .mp4
23:42:39 <ais523> tasvideos aren't tweaking for crazy performance or anything like that, though
23:42:47 <ais523> mostly they're just trying to get the things to work and be a reasonable size
23:42:55 <fizzie> ais523: But due to another special case, "if (false) { x(); }" is in fact legal, as is "if (true) x(); else y();" -- the spec admits the handling is not consistent with other control structures, but is done like that to "allow the if statement to be used conveniently for "conditional compilation" purposes".
23:42:58 <olsner_> eugh, RIFF stores the length of the file in the file (as if the file size wasn't obvious from the, you know, actual size of the file), and stores it as a 32-bit integer
23:43:06 <olsner_> great future-proofing there
23:43:16 <pikhq> avi is perhaps the worst container.
23:43:23 <ais523> olsner_: tasvideos actually hit that limit
23:43:33 <olsner_> pikhq: XML would be worse, I think
23:43:40 <ais523> which is pretty impressive
23:44:04 <pikhq> alise: BTW, to be fair to VLC, it *is* probably the most useful GUI media player out there.
23:44:25 <alise> pikhq: gmplayer? :P
23:44:27 <pikhq> Notable features include: supporting nearly everything (like mplayer) and not sucking (like mplayer).
23:44:38 <alise> ais523: a /speed run/ hit a /time limit/ on a /video format/?
23:44:41 <alise> what kind of game is that?!
23:44:46 <pikhq> Gmplayer sucked last time I tried it.
23:44:52 <pikhq> alise: Size limit, not time limit.
23:44:55 <ais523> a very long one, probably; or possibly one that compresses really badly
23:45:00 <olsner_> yeah, iirc gmplayer sucks pretty badly
23:45:09 <alise> is gmplayer == the mplayer gui?
23:45:10 <ais523> most video formats are really bad at encoding game videos
23:45:15 <alise> or == gnome-mplayer?
23:45:27 <olsner_> I found it worse than the command-line user interface at least
23:45:31 <pikhq> gmplayer is the mplayer GUI, which uses GTK.
23:50:35 * alise opens The Largest tar.bz2
23:51:23 <ais523> <IOCCC what's new, newest entry> 30 April 2010: Announcement coming soon. Check back here on 15 May 2010!
23:53:40 <ais523> really, I don't know what to make of that
23:54:17 <olsner_> now the entire contest is obfuscated!
23:57:49 <Sgeo> So, progress on HackFactor?
23:57:59 -!- olsner_ has changed nick to olsner.
23:58:07 <Sgeo> `factor "Hello world" print
23:58:30 <Sgeo> `factor "No output." print
23:58:49 <Sgeo> It works half the time!
00:00:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:02:42 <pikhq> Turn off logger daemon, and voila, my phone works better.
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00:06:19 <pikhq> In fact, it functions... Usably.
00:06:39 <pikhq> Rather than sometimes-usably, sometimes-WHYTHEFUCKWONTYOUTAKEINPUTGOD
00:10:28 <olsner> when god takes input is up to god, I think
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00:55:42 <cpressey_> <ais523> you're right, unreachable code is a fatal compile error in Java
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00:55:58 <cpressey_> in Lua it's a syntax error to have a return before the end of a function
00:56:15 <ais523> as in, in the grammar?
00:57:02 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how far you could go along the lines of static analysis in the grammar
01:01:32 <cpressey_> ais523: I've wondered that too -- I tried to do all of BASIC once, including types
01:01:58 <cpressey_> ais523: ... as an LL(1) grammar. Kind of hard when the type annotation comes after the variable name
01:05:55 <ais523> and even implemented it by hand, from a description of the algorithm
01:06:25 <ais523> (admittedly, I implemented it in VBA for Excel; it's one of the languages which I used to be rather good at, because I didn't know any better to avoid learning it)
01:06:29 <cpressey_> ais523: congratulations, you've gotten me thinking about it again. i bet you could design a practical language where the only error is syntax error (that is, "you stepped outside this BNF grammar"). perhaps "practical" is an overstatement though
01:06:50 <cpressey_> i never liked LR parsers for some reason
01:07:12 <ais523> eventually I gave up because Microsoft broke backwards compatibility with every release of Excel
01:07:23 <ais523> e.g. it was no longer possible to hide the entire UI
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01:17:46 <Sgeo> ............Firefox now comes with an Urban Dictonary bookmark?
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01:41:32 <wareya> I just got banned from a channel for saying faggot
02:15:10 <pikhq> Arbitration clauses: most evil thing?
02:19:08 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
02:23:49 <pikhq> ... Motherfucking hell. So, corporations can give unlimited money to politicians... *And judges*.
02:25:19 <pikhq> I genuinely must leave this country.
02:25:45 <Sgeo> pikhq, o.O linky?
02:26:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: "Citizens United" sound familiar?
02:26:20 <pikhq> The decision applies to any elected position.
02:26:28 <pikhq> Which includes a large number of judges.
02:32:19 <Sgeo> Well, Slava dislikes lazy lists
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02:34:22 <Sgeo> I almost want to cry inside
02:37:40 <cpressey_> Sgeo: are you trying to make thue.c build, too?
02:39:03 <Sgeo> Quadrescence, why do you hate Factor?
02:40:38 <Quadrescence> I just never saw it as very interesting and don't like that it was rewritten in C++ and don't like that slava took my power cord for my laptop
02:41:35 <Quadrescence> While he was in Minneapolis, I went over to his place and hacked with him w/factor and stuff
02:42:28 <Quadrescence> But I left my power cable over there, and then he moved to New Zealand
02:43:50 <Quadrescence> Also I don't like that Factor must be bootstrapped. :(
02:44:10 <Sgeo> ^^not convincing someone who used to love Smalltalk
02:44:31 <Quadrescence> ^^not trying to convince just explaining why I don't like it
02:47:29 <Quadrescence> I don't really like the language idioms (cleave, chop, etc combinators), don't really like some of the directives ( ; INLINE ), etc etc
02:49:31 <Quadrescence> And I don't think a stack-centralized view of programming really scales well to multiprocessing.
02:56:48 <pikhq> Quadrescence: *Hardly anything* scales well to multiprocessing.
02:57:51 <pikhq> And I almost guarantee your favorite language doesn't scale well to multiprocessing.
02:58:09 <pikhq> What, incidentally, is your favorite language?
02:58:44 <pikhq> Okay, your favorite language scales somewhat well to multiprocessing.
02:59:25 <pikhq> (though when it gets too complex you end up with, no joke, locks on top of the message-passing system. *groan*)
03:00:12 <Sgeo> Factor has support for Erlang-style message passing
03:02:25 <pikhq> It's actually not a common thing. And besides which, message passing is not the magic solution to all multiprocessing woes.
03:02:48 <pikhq> The best solution is, of course, to allow a lot of solutions with different pros and cons to be easy to use.
03:03:28 <pikhq> (I'd say this is the approach taken by, most notably, Haskell. And though I'm not sure, I *strongly* suspect the same is true of Scheme and Common Lisp.)
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03:29:52 <Sgeo> Factor also has futures&promises
03:30:12 <Sgeo> I asked about STM, but since it currently only has co-operative threads...
03:31:25 <cpressey_> since it currently only has co-operative threads, STM... doesn't apply?
03:34:11 <Sgeo> I might have misunderstood
03:34:33 <pikhq> I've yet to see STM really work outside of Haskell.
03:35:06 <pikhq> You could probably make it work well in something else with good metaprogramming, though.
03:40:35 <Sgeo> What's wrong with STM outside of Haskell?
03:41:23 <pikhq> It doesn't bloody work at all!
03:41:34 <pikhq> Whereas in Haskell, STM was a weekend project.
03:43:01 <Sgeo> Was about to quote someone who said that Factor won't use multiple cores, then e said e was a troll
03:45:09 <cpressey_> so... the target and the rnum arrays are 1-based...
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03:47:02 <mrjbq7> just curious what this esoteric stuff is all about
03:47:21 <Sgeo> Esoteric programming languages
03:47:32 <Sgeo> Such as INTERCAL, Brainf***, Unlambda
03:47:33 <mrjbq7> You know, Factor's not an esoteric programming language (according to the list)
03:47:41 <Sgeo> Well, that's what's it's officially about
03:47:46 <mrjbq7> did you see the brainfuck interpreter in factor?
03:47:49 <cpressey_> mrjbq7: we talk about all kinds of things here
03:47:50 <Sgeo> Unofficially, it's about anything math or computersciency
03:48:11 <pikhq> Ununofficially, it's about being off-topic.
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03:48:26 <cpressey_> people with a common interest in esolangs, socializing about... whatever happens to be interesting to them
03:48:43 <pikhq> Which rarely happens to be esolangs.
03:49:24 <cpressey_> pikhq: I think I just fixed the *other two bugs* in thue.c, so... :P
03:49:38 <Sgeo> There is a language beginning with Fa that you'll be .. thought weird of if you say you like...
03:49:45 <cpressey_> (after bug #1 was pointed out to me)
03:50:12 <cpressey_> Father. yeah, the one ais523 is working on.
03:50:22 <Sgeo> I was thinking of Falcon
03:50:42 <Sgeo> And ais523's language is Feather. And if it ever comes to exist, it will be interesting
03:51:40 <cpressey_> Sgeo: I thought you were going to say Factor
03:52:11 <Sgeo> I was trying to imply it, although obviously wouldn't have meant it
03:52:57 <cpressey_> Oh no... actually there are only two bugs... that comparsion between char *'s is intentional!
04:08:19 <Sgeo> Falcon apparently has special casing for monads
04:10:13 <Sgeo> I don't actually know details
04:13:17 <cpressey_> fscanf(file, "%[^\n]", s); <-- I think DICE C conforms to POSIX in its implementation of this, while glibc (or whatever Ubuntu is using) doesn't.
04:14:21 <cpressey_> http://opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908775/xsh/fscanf.html says that between [ and ] are "bytes", not "character sequences". So this reads up to the first backslash or 'n'. Not the first linefeed.
04:18:35 <cpressey_> why john didn't just use fgets is beyond me
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04:43:21 <Gregor> cpressey: That's scary D-8
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05:08:08 <Gregor> cpressey: Have some sheet music http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp6.pdf
05:12:06 <Gregor> cpressey: Measure 250 HIGHEST NOTE ON THE PIANO
05:13:54 <cpressey_> Gregor: also: measure 56 eighth rests ... QUITE LOW
05:14:50 <Gregor> Yeah, that's a bit of a Lilypond anomaly ...
05:15:21 <Gregor> When you have multiple voices, it insists on putting rests in weird places.
05:19:44 <madbr> looks hard to play
05:22:49 <Gregor> Well, it's not "easy" to play :P
05:23:58 <Gregor> That 11tuple (is that what you're referring to?) is a Chopin-tuple. It's just "stuff this arbitrary number of notes into the appropriate amount of space"
05:24:26 <Gregor> The rhythm doesn't really matter at that speed.
05:25:06 <Gregor> (Incidentally, that 11-tuple is far easier to play than either of the preceding two 9-tuples)
05:33:03 <madbr> man, I should write for solo piano
05:33:35 <madbr> probably the best way to, uh, actually get played
05:34:52 <Gregor> It gets played because I play it X-P
05:37:30 <madbr> though I could also just build a set with live keyboard playing + sequenced music
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05:39:44 <madbr> I sequenced some wind quintet + drum + electrib bass song but I don't think I'll ever have to turn that into parts :D
05:43:22 <Gregor> That's tricky if your preferred musical style involves as much rubato as mine ... needs humans.
06:13:17 <madbr> yeah would be cool to play tracker music + physical modelled instruments with a dx7 as midi controller :D
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09:23:49 <oklofok> "<cpressey_> ais523: congratulations, you've gotten me thinking about it again. i bet you could design a practical language where the only error is syntax error (that is, "you stepped outside this BNF grammar"). perhaps "practical" is an overstatement though" <<< OKLOTALK doesn't have syntax errors OR runtime errors, and it's the most practical thing ever
09:28:22 <oklofok> "<cpressey_> Father. yeah, the one ais523 is working on." <<< someone make a time travel joke plz
09:29:29 <oklofok> "<Gregor> cpressey: That's scary D-8" <<< how?
09:31:28 <oklofok> "* lament (~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)" <<< good byes
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12:57:45 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what that program in the topic is and why it's been there for months.
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13:01:00 <fizzie> Looks like yet another Underload quine to me.
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13:02:26 <oklofok> umm right, i executed double-ass wrong in my head
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13:03:05 <oklofok> (or, actually i did it right, but i remembered it was siisii instead of a quine)
13:04:05 <fungot> (aSS) ...out of stack!
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13:04:37 <fizzie> Don't know why it made Ghost_Vacuum run away though.
13:06:26 <oklofok> : doubles, a parens, S prints, ^ runs, * concats?
13:08:34 <fizzie> And ~ swaps and ! drops, if I recall correctly.
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14:11:42 <cpressey_> oklofok: I realized after I wrote that that Befunge doesn't have syntax or runtime errors either
14:12:16 <cpressey_> and I think Gregor might be scared of computers without fans
14:12:37 <fizzie> cpressey: Right, and it's an incredibly practical language too.
14:14:02 <fizzie> A mystery for the ages.
14:14:19 <fizzie> Possibly because the canonical ass-quine would get us blocked by all sorts of content filters?
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15:14:52 <cpressey> Anyone know if there are any Underload interpreters implemented in C, out there?
15:18:47 <Gregor> cpressey: My phone is a computer without a fan.
15:21:11 <cpressey> My brain is a fan without a phone.
15:25:04 <cpressey> Underload looks like it would really easy to do in C.
15:25:35 <cpressey> Well, not "really" easy, but not hard.
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16:00:46 <cpressey_> Gregor: Do you have Thue on your phone? No? I rest my case, whatever it may have been.
16:01:45 <cpressey_> "Do you have Thue installed on your phone?" "Yes..." "Well you better let him off, then!"
16:09:18 <fizzie> Does that imply that this very much computer-shaped thing I've been using actually isn't a computer, since it doesn't happen to have Thue on it?
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16:47:50 <cpressey_> Wow, Milo's and John's Wierd interpreters are... wholly mutually incompatible.
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17:13:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I should actually do something with that Lisp OS thing alise and I were discussing...
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17:38:21 <Vorpal> cpressey_, cpressey: why are there two of you?
17:38:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, really?
17:42:04 <cpressey> It's more like Gregor-W without the W
17:42:38 <cpressey> As for "how?", I'm still trying to think of an interesting was to answer that without context
17:54:35 <Vorpal> cpressey, the context is "<cpressey_> Wow, Milo's and John's Wierd interpreters are... wholly mutually incompatible."
17:55:29 <cpressey> Vorpal: programs that run on one do not run on the other
18:01:16 <Gregor> cpressey: I use a BNC now :P
18:23:43 <nooga> Gregor: I'm thinking about generating multi-core compatible code in my compiler
18:24:07 <nooga> but i don't have an idea how to utilise multi-core potential in this problem, yet
18:27:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, for all programs?
18:28:29 <Vorpal> nooga, what is the problem in question?
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18:36:17 <cpressey> Vorpal: all I've seen. I have yet to see a wierd-john/wierd-milo polyglot.
18:40:06 <nooga> Vorpal: generating parallell code for executing finite state automata
18:40:20 <Sgeo> cpressey, but why? What's so incompatible between them?
18:47:13 <cpressey> Sgeo: they have completely different interpretations of the language's semantics
18:47:40 <cpressey> nooga: you're going to parallelize regular expression matching? :)
18:48:14 <cpressey> Sgeo: Well, not completely maybe, but enough so that when you hit the first bend, BOOM
18:51:41 <nooga> cpressey: i thought about it but i can't imagine if it's really possible
18:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Compile the FSA into a regex, then use PPCRE and SBCL?
18:58:37 <cpressey> nooga: I... there was a good paper on this... no, actually it wasn't very good :) but it did point out that some algorithms seem basically unparallelizable -- running a finite-state automaton is one of them
18:59:45 <cpressey> if i can remember the name i'll look for it later
19:13:01 <oklofok> we could split the string in n parts, first one much longer than the rest, and start an automaton from each state for the latter parts, in initial state for the first part, of course this might not be very practical because if the automaton is deterministic, then there will probably be a huge number of states, so you can't really run from all of them; oh and when the first one catches up, you can drop all but one search in the second p
19:13:14 <oklofok> prolly didn't come through so i'll repeat half
19:13:15 <oklofok> not be very practical because if the automaton is deterministic, then there will probably be a huge number of states, so you can't really run from all of them; oh and when the first one catches up, you can drop all but one search in the second part, etc
19:18:04 <Gregor> If I pronounce a word IPA [faɪθ], how might you be inclined to spell that if you thought it was English?
19:18:15 <nooga> cpressey: but non deterministic ones could be parallelized
19:18:32 <nooga> still i'm talking about DFA
19:19:19 <oklofok> why is a nondeterministic one easier to parallelize?
19:19:44 <oklofok> well i guess that's a bit obvious
19:20:03 <oklofok> when you've branched too many times, give a few branches to other computers
19:20:18 <oklofok> assuming, again, a huge amount of states
19:20:52 <nooga> converting from NFA to DFA can caouse expoinental explosion of number of states
19:21:26 <nooga> but still DFA's are faster to execute in single process
19:21:59 <oklofok> it's definitely not faster to make an explicit subset construction than to recurse, usually
19:22:00 <nooga> i don't know it it's worth parallelizing
19:22:37 <oklofok> my argument for "no, they are not faster to execute in single process", but i probably misunderstand you
19:22:52 <nooga> i must do some research on that
19:23:00 <nooga> maybe even a paper
19:24:23 <nooga> but i want my regex compiler to be as optimal as it can be
19:26:40 <nooga> an it could be my thesis
19:33:40 <Gregor> There's a severe split of opinions on the i/y issue.
19:34:24 <pikhq> It should be pronounced "ghoti".
19:34:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I would pronounce "fithe" with a voiced 'th' normally.
19:35:28 <Phantom_Hoover> But English hasn't actually got a way of indicating voiced vs. unvoiced 'th'.
19:36:02 <Gregor> I don't even remember which is which :P
19:36:43 <Gregor> Why doesn't the IPA use X-P
19:37:09 <nooga> þ and ð are icelandic
19:37:53 <Gregor> nooga: Only I thought?
19:38:07 <nooga> also ð, it's pretty commonly used
19:38:16 <Gregor> And nobody kept wynn (which I don't even have a compose sequence for :P )
19:38:48 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: archaic English is in the same group as achaoic Norse and stuff
19:39:04 <nooga> i think that Norsk resembles English
19:39:05 <pikhq> Gregor: ð died out before þ.
19:39:28 <Gregor> pikhq: Yes, but I was talking about Icelandic :P
19:39:34 <pikhq> þ lasted up until Early Modern English (barely); I'm pretty sure ð died in Middle English.
19:39:48 <nooga> Icelandic still looks like ancient Norse
19:39:54 <nooga> but with new words
19:39:59 <pikhq> nooga: Actually, Old English was West Germanic, whereas Old Norse was North Germanic...
19:40:12 <nooga> like car and computer ;p
19:40:20 <pikhq> Granted, Old English then went on to borrow an absurd number of words from Old Norse.
19:40:26 <pikhq> ... And bits of grammar.
19:40:41 <pikhq> Gregor: That was later.
19:40:56 <pikhq> Though at this time there *was* a good deal of Latin borrowing.
19:43:03 <pikhq> Hrm. English's syntax is actually typical of North Germanic languages. Curious.
19:44:31 <pikhq> Aaaah, English. The West Germanic language with North Germanic grammar and Romance vocabulary.
19:45:35 <nooga> when i looked at Bokmal course my first thought was sometnig like: "oh, it's like English but written differently"
19:46:17 <pikhq> You'd probably get that more with West Frisian.
19:46:25 <Gregor> Dutch is just English with a funny accent.
19:46:27 <pikhq> (which is, of course, somewhat useless to learn)
19:46:38 <Gregor> But, by that same token, German is just English with a funny accent.
19:46:42 <nooga> Gregor: yeah, something like that
19:46:44 <Gregor> And French is just English with a REALLY funny accent.
19:46:56 <nooga> German is totally f&(#$^$d up
19:47:16 <nooga> Polish is just Russian with funny accent - wrong
19:47:28 <Gregor> But Czech is just Polish with a funny accent.
19:47:41 <nooga> i speak perfect Polish but i can't understand Russians
19:47:51 <nooga> Gregor: that'd be true, it's hilarious
19:48:01 <pikhq> Finnish is just Japanese run through a cypher.
19:48:17 <nooga> Czech - serek = shit
19:48:31 <nooga> Polish - serek = (small) cheese
19:48:44 <pikhq> (it has superficially similar phonology. No clue why.)
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19:52:26 <pikhq> "Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk." Aaah, obvious cognates.
19:53:28 <Gregor> Clearly perfect English.
20:01:07 <Vorpal> hm, why do endings in many RPG seem like anticlimaxes? Not sure if it applies to other genres as well...
20:01:36 <fizzie> One of these days it could be time to expurgitate the hackiki poll away from the topic; I just went there and it was all "poll closed" to me.
20:02:09 <Vorpal> <pikhq> "Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk." Aaah, obvious cognates. <-- this looks slightly Scandinavian?
20:02:21 <Vorpal> definitely not Swedish, Norwegian or Danish though
20:02:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could edit it
20:03:24 -!- Vorpal has set topic: The cheesy channel (cheddar) | (a(:^)*S):^ | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? (Wiki capable of running nearly-arbitrary code) Vote: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:03:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's West Frisian.
20:04:06 <fizzie> No, I prefer the complaining to actual action. (And maybe it has a point still; I think it's possible to leave comments even if the poll's closed.)
20:04:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which is an Anglo-Frisian language... Other Anglo-Frisian languages include English and Scots.
20:04:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh wait, not a cheese name
20:05:13 <pikhq> Friesland and Groningnen, in the Netherlands.
20:05:32 <pikhq> Few hundred thousand speakers.
20:07:00 <pikhq> If you want to go into extinct languages, one can find languages closer still to English.
20:07:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway what did "Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk." mean?
20:08:00 <Vorpal> I can guess at some words...
20:08:02 <pikhq> Or "Early Modern English without the vowel shift".
20:08:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Butter, bread, and green cheese is good English and good Fries."
20:09:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, how is it good English?
20:09:36 <pikhq> It sounds like English with a thick accent.
20:10:17 -!- fizzie has set topic: The cheesy channel (cheddar) | Also combûter programming | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? You should've voted: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:10:36 <pikhq> (the mutual comprehensibility of the two languages, though, is rather low... Mostly because English has a lot of Romantic vocabulary, and Frisian doesn't.)
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20:29:03 <cpressey> <nooga> cpressey: but non deterministic ones could be parallelized <-- indeed, I was assuming DFA but didn't say so. doh!
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21:08:56 <Sgeo> Are dynamically-scoped variables ethical?
21:11:12 <fizzie> Wasn't it so that Moses' stone slabs had some "thou shalt not dynamically scope" engravings?
21:11:45 <Sgeo> I mean, dynamically-scoped variables remind me of globals
21:16:26 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, dynamic variables are in Lisp?
21:16:30 <Slereah> Did you read your SICP today?
21:18:13 <fizzie> I do not like dynamic scopes and ham, I do not like them, Sam-I-am.
21:19:00 <Sgeo> What makes dynamic scopes different from globals?
21:19:14 <Sgeo> I mean, morally, not physically
21:20:19 <Slereah> They are an abomination in the eyes of the lord
21:25:18 <pikhq> Awesome. There's a movement to estabilish a World Parliament.
21:32:50 <pikhq> Actually, the proposal is to rework the UN to have an elected parliament running it.
21:33:05 <pikhq> ... And to make this system replace treaties as the primary form of international law.
21:35:28 <Vorpal> note to self: when making some hot chocolate, if using the box marked "100% pure coca powder" *add some sugar*
21:35:41 <Vorpal> once that is done it tastes lovely
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21:36:02 <pikhq> Supporting groups include: the Council of Europe.
21:36:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, Council of Europe?
21:36:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, is this related to EU in any way?
21:37:02 <Vorpal> or just a confusing name?
21:37:04 <alise> Our Society to Segment.
21:37:14 <alise> Vorpal: The Council of Europe (French: Conseil de l'Europe) is one of the oldest international organisations working towards European integration, having been founded in 1949. It has a particular emphasis on legal standards, human rights, democratic development, the rule of law and cultural co-operation. It has 47 member states with some 800 million citizens. It is distinct from the European Union (EU) which has common policies, binding laws and only twenty
21:37:14 <alise> -seven members. The two do however share certain symbols such as their flag.
21:37:21 <Sgeo> alise, maybe you can explain to me
21:37:26 <alise> Vorpal: It's more general.
21:37:27 <cpressey> alise: Eightebeden Sgeo on the morality of dynamic scoping, or lack thereof, if you please.
21:37:35 <Sgeo> What is the moral difference between using dynamically-scoped variables and global variables
21:37:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: It is distinct from the EU, but one of the pan-Europe legilsative entities.
21:38:16 <alise> Sgeo: The latter is usually not such a good idea; the former is probably more "moral" (for instance, if you have a LET construct you can temporarily reassign it without ugliness) BUT will confuse EVERYONE.
21:38:21 <alise> Are you designing a language?
21:38:47 <Sgeo> Factor uses dynamically-scoped variables, and I'm not sure how much, but I have a feeling that it's quite a bit
21:39:04 <alise> Then it's obscure enough that people who use it will understand it.
21:39:07 <pikhq> There are a *lot* of European legislative entities.
21:39:17 <alise> So: If used tastefully, far superior to global variables. Of course, global variables have a place, too...
21:39:22 <alise> (although not much of one)
21:39:27 * Sgeo deosn't want to see Factor remain obscure
21:39:40 <alise> Sgeo: Most programmers suck.
21:39:54 <cpressey> Factor will never, ever become mainstream. Sorry
21:40:02 <alise> 18:32:19 <Sgeo> Well, Slava dislikes lazy lists ;; define more precisely
21:40:04 <Sgeo> I will show the benefits of Factor to AW programmers
21:40:12 <Sgeo> AW bot programmers
21:40:20 <alise> Sgeo: Yeah, thing is, from what I've seen of AW and AW people and AW-related code, they're fucking retarded.
21:40:29 <cpressey> Anything remotely Forth-tinted will never, ever become mainstream. Sorry
21:40:37 <alise> I would rather hire someone straight out of Java-school.
21:40:50 <Sgeo> alise, you only know of _one_ person besides me
21:41:08 <Sgeo> The other person in the project
21:41:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: the Other Programmer on Sgeo's C# project
21:41:30 <pikhq> Oh, hey. European Parliament also called for a World Parliament.
21:41:43 <cpressey> Hey, if I install Mono on my Ubuntu box, will it come with an ILASM.EXE-alike?
21:42:09 <Sgeo> cpressey, I have no idea
21:42:10 <alise> Sgeo: Anyway, if it's anything like Second Life, and since at least that has interesting stuff, dating from /after/ people figured out how to make 3D VR simulations not completely and utterly suck, I would expect its programming user-base-subset to be more intelligent, rather than driven by ridiculous nostalgia.
21:42:23 <alise> Even if the quality is superior, I expect it will not be by much.
21:42:26 <alise> cpressey: probably
21:42:31 <alise> Dis/Assembling CIL Code - Mono
21:42:31 <alise> ilasm: The Mono Assembler can be given disassembled text, and it creates an assembly file. This is very important, because many compilers don't create the ...
21:42:39 <alise> ilasm(1): Mono IL assembler - Linux man page
21:42:40 <alise> ilasm is the Mono ILAsm assembler. You can pass one or more options to drive the compiler, and a set of source files.
21:42:40 <alise> linux.die.net/man/1/ilasm - Cached - Similar
21:42:40 <alise> 9 Apr 2008 ... The Mono IL assembler. Comparable to the Microsoft ilasm.exe tool.
21:42:41 <alise> mono.wikia.com/wiki/Ilasm - Cached - Similar
21:42:43 <alise> cpressey: try google
21:42:53 <pikhq> alise: Second Life's code sucks horridly.
21:42:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
21:43:03 <pikhq> It is perhaps the worst C++ I have ever seen.
21:43:10 <alise> pikhq: I mean people who program things for Second Life.
21:43:23 <alise> And if you imagine how bad that code is, imagine how incorrigibly terrible Active Worlds code is going to be.
21:44:16 <cpressey> Mono: a project to port .NET to different architectures and to gratuitously change the VM language it is built on. Hey, not a bad idea!
21:44:19 <Sgeo> Should I work on Smalltalk bindings for AW instead?
21:44:29 <Sgeo> Well, I'm still planning to after Pharo 1.2 comes out
21:45:55 <alise> I am fucking sick of hearing about you asking the question
21:46:01 <alise> "SHOULD I MAKE AW BINDINGS FOR [random language]?"
21:46:12 <alise> I have heard it like threeee thouusand fuckinggg timesssss
21:46:18 <alise> In like three minutes
21:47:08 <Sgeo> Considering how poorly maintained my bindings for Python are, and how that's what most people are interested in..
21:47:43 <nooga> alise: should i compile perl with my regexp compiler?
21:47:48 <alise> I know I talk about random shit some time, but if ANYONE in here is actually interested in the language-binding preferences of people who use Active Worlds, PLEASE make some sort of noise now.
21:47:55 <alise> nooga: Yes. Very yes.
21:48:03 * Sgeo makes enough noise to deafen everyone.
21:48:13 <alise> Sgeo: Allow me to introduce you to #sgeo!
21:48:20 <alise> * Topic for #sgeo is: Sacred Geometry Topcis
21:48:23 <alise> You'll be at home there.
21:48:25 <pikhq> alise: I want a world parliament dammit!
21:48:40 <alise> pikhq: I dunno, I'm not much fond of that idea.
21:48:57 <alise> pikhq: It has the potential to be very... insidious.
21:49:23 <pikhq> alise: Alternately, I want to estabilish a totalitarian state and eliminate everyone responsible for evil.
21:49:27 * Sgeo drags alise bac into #sgeo
21:49:33 <Sgeo> ...that sounds very, very wrong
21:49:58 <alise> Yeah, what the hell is bac?
21:50:09 <alise> pikhq: And then you go mad with power.
21:50:10 <cpressey> Thank YOU, Pythagoras, for having WEIRD BELIEFS.
21:50:24 <pikhq> alise: Yes, but only once the evil people are gone.
21:50:37 <alise> pikhq: Thus creating a new evil person!
21:50:42 <pikhq> Meaning that the inevitable toppling of power ends with the assholes gone.
21:51:11 * pikhq clones himself, so the clone can be the dictator and he can be the freedom fighter
21:51:30 * Sgeo wonders if he could make an analytical engine in AW
21:51:39 <Sgeo> Would be easier than a full-blown 8-bit computer
21:51:42 <Sgeo> Was that design TC?
21:51:56 <alise> Sgeo: OJFDIGJDFOIHJDTFOGHOIFDGHJODIGFHJ
21:52:00 <alise> TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT ISN'T AW FOR TEN MINUTES
21:52:36 <alise> pikhq: Coup d'État of the Week
21:52:48 <alise> (Is that the correct capitalisation?)
21:53:25 <alise> So! I hereby proclaim Ubuntu Netbook Edition INTERESTING
21:53:26 <pikhq> I had forgotten that the US has private ambulances.
21:53:35 <alise> Its WM is ratpoison with gradients.
21:53:45 <alise> Instead of windows, it has tabs.
21:54:25 <pikhq> Privatised essential services. *sigh*
21:54:46 <alise> (The tabs become just the icon when not focused to save screen real-estate. The window takes up the whole screen apart from the small bar at the top. Below all Windows is a large-scale version of the GNOME menu plus a directory listing of ~ and a list of volumes (clicking them opens Nautilus).
21:55:01 <alise> It's great on, uh, a netbook.
21:57:28 <alise> It is rather disturbing how few unmaximised windows I use.
22:01:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
22:02:18 <pikhq> Wow. Some fundamentalist atheist sued the US, alleging violations of the First Amendment, in response to the crew of Apollo 8 reading from the Book of Genesis...
22:02:38 <pikhq> The suit was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction.
22:03:06 <alise> "fundamentalist atheist" ;; I prefer the term "moron latching on to atheism as a way to get attention".
22:03:34 <pikhq> "Fundamentalist" in attachment to any religious belief tends to mean "moron latching on to X as a way to get attention".
22:03:36 <alise> A "fundamentalist atheist" would be one who intolerantly adheres to the most anal-retentive form of atheism in the strongest way. So... he'd just be REALLY ADAMANT that god doesn't exist.
22:03:54 <alise> It just happens that "fundamentalist [actual religion]" usually means "batshit crazy".
22:04:23 <alise> pikhq: I think Buzz Aldrin taking the Communion was objectionable, though.
22:04:37 <alise> I don't much like the idea of even a small amount of alcohol in an astronaut.
22:04:54 <pikhq> "Fundamentalism" for religious beliefs is actually typically divergent from the original religious beliefs in question...
22:05:03 <alise> Oh, the one who sued is the founder of American Atheists.
22:05:17 <alise> I'm fairly sure that lawsuit was to prove a point.
22:05:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:07:04 <alise> "The idea of this entry was to do the impossible: a 1K remake of the famous WOLF5K that rocked the final edition of the5K. Does not feature guns, violence: in WOLF1K, there is no room for guns or any form of violence."
22:08:43 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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22:11:11 <Sgeo> alise, someone in Crawl got 267 runes
22:11:45 <alise> I totally know what that means.
22:12:05 <cpressey> i totally have no idea what it means
22:12:10 <Sgeo> YOu need 3 runes to get to the Realm of Zot, which has the Orb of Zot
22:12:32 <Sgeo> Runes are collected at the ends of.. some places
22:12:33 <cpressey> but i can make guesses which likely conform to the general idea, and cannot possibly make guesses the conform to the specifics
22:12:39 <Sgeo> And in the abyss, and in Pandemonium I think
22:12:45 <Sgeo> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/78291/morgue-78291-20100518-161512.txt
22:15:24 <Sgeo> Check out the notes!
22:15:44 <Vorpal> * Sgeo deosn't want to see Factor remain obscure <-- but they have broken "monads".
22:15:59 <Vorpal> well, not really broken. More like "not really monads at all"
22:16:13 <cpressey> I think Vorpal might be thinking of Falcon
22:16:33 <cpressey> And as I said, we need a language called "Falctorn"
22:17:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, that explains it
22:17:10 <Vorpal> cpressey, yeah factor is pretty good.
22:17:32 <cpressey> Factor doesn't excite me much, but it's nowhere near Falcon.
22:17:51 <cpressey> Clojure doesn't excite me much either
22:17:56 <Vorpal> cpressey, well... the first two letters and the next to last. And c moved around.
22:18:17 <cpressey> Vorpal: ok, ok, in terms of *edit distance*...
22:18:18 <Vorpal> the edit distance isn't h uge
22:18:49 <Vorpal> cpressey, I was actually thinking hamming distance, then switching to edit distance when I realised there was a c that could be moved around
22:19:25 <cpressey> So what languages do excite me?
22:19:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, I hope befunge98 does!
22:19:37 <alise> Vorpal: it doesn't.
22:19:50 <Vorpal> alise, what doesn't what?
22:20:00 <alise> (Even if it did in 1998, it's been 12 fucking years!)
22:20:13 <alise> Vorpal: unless I am severely mistaken, Befunge-98 does not excite cpressey.
22:20:33 <Vorpal> yeah 12 years might be stretching it a bit
22:21:12 <pikhq> Befunge-110, however...
22:21:18 <cpressey> I wasn't actually thinking of including esolangs in that set
22:23:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: The usual edit distance (Levenshtein one) only counts substitutions, additions and deletions, so you need two operations to "move the c around", and then a substitution to change t/l; that's larger than just the two substitutions, so it doesn't matter whether you use the Hamming or Levenshtein distance.
22:24:29 <pikhq> alise: So. I have concluded that xkcd is busy being brilliant, not lame.
22:24:42 <alise> <pikhq> Befunge-110, however...
22:24:47 <alise> Is abandoned, afaik. Or do you mean Vorpal's version?
22:24:54 <fizzie> (This has been another episode of the continuing series of "focus on the unimportant details only". Thank you.)
22:24:57 <alise> cpressey: I'll just answer your questions for you in future, kay.
22:25:03 <pikhq> alise: He is subverting the expectation that a comic should be "funny", by trying his hardest to not be funny.
22:25:22 <alise> pikhq: Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
22:25:30 <alise> I was about to say "but the latest comic-"
22:27:22 <alise> Wow, pikhq, with all that Vorpal-pressure you'd better keep delivering the yuks, or we'll just call you xkcd 2: Electric Boogaloo, and maintain an xkcd 2: Electric Boogaloo sucks blog.
22:27:39 <alise> If that fails, we'll have to start xkcd 2: Electric Boogaloo sucks 2: Electric Boogaloo.
22:28:04 <alise> And then we'll get arrested by the Breakin'-sequel-title-ripoffs police.
22:28:52 <pikhq> *Such* a bizarre sequel title.
22:29:21 <Vorpal> alise, Vorpal-pressure?
22:29:23 <fizzie> "Vorpal pressure" sounds like a fakey physics term, though. "The vorpal pressure of the vacuum destabilization chamber is rising!"
22:29:41 <alise> fizzie: We're leaking warp plasma!
22:29:52 <pikhq> Guess the Five Iron Frenzy album was more bizarre, though. What with their 4th album claiming to be "Five Iron Frenzy 2".
22:30:09 <Sgeo> alise, I'm gonna play with FightClub
22:30:17 <cpressey> OK. For the record. I never planned a Befunge-110. Someone else might've. I idly thought Befunge-111 might be a good idea and started writing a spec. I shelved it.
22:30:22 <alise> Sgeo: Have fun with that.
22:30:25 <alise> cpressey: Ah, yes, 111.
22:30:36 <alise> -110 was Vorpal's anal-retentive "clarification" of -98.
22:30:43 <alise> Consistency must prevail!
22:30:44 <cpressey> Recently I had more dangerous thoughts about what a Befunge-111 could be. I never told anyone about them. I have effectively shelved them too.
22:30:55 <alise> More dangerous than replacing fingerprints with URIs?
22:31:08 <Sgeo> shadow dragon > orb guardian
22:31:29 <alise> cpressey: I assume "dangerous" means "utterly ludicrous".
22:31:30 <pikhq> cpressey: Was it computable?
22:32:02 <Vorpal> alise, um... I was trying to make something that didn't leave 1/3rd unspeced... And 98 and t speced in a way that would basically make it not work
22:32:05 <cpressey> Yes, it was computable. No, they weren't quite ludicrous enough. Thus shelved.
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22:33:32 <alise> Vorpal: Unfortunately, only ten people ever had the desire to implement -98, only five got far enough for the ambiguously specified (not unspecified; it didn't have sections missing or anything) parts; only four decided to keep going, and they easily found consensus, e.g. from Mycology.
22:33:47 <alise> If you pick on those hypothetical example numbers, I will shoot you.
22:34:01 <cpressey> I prefer to think of 98 as being "goobishly specified"
22:34:18 <Vorpal> alise, they are underestimates yes. And shoot if you want. I have protection
22:34:56 <Vorpal> alise, I think there should be 5 for the last group
22:35:14 <alise> cpressey: Please kill this man.
22:39:07 <cpressey> alise: I can't. I'm trapped in WOLF1K where there is no room for violence.
22:40:32 <cpressey> If you really want to know, one idea was to abandon fingerprints in favour of sucking in all of Unicode as the instruction set.
22:41:57 <cpressey> So, there's no need to push the semantics of TURT onto A-Z. Just start using, I dunno, ᓀᐦᐃᔭᐍᐏᐣ, and you've started manipulating the turtle.
22:43:11 <fizzie> Without the fabled mythical central repository, that sounds like a very conflicty solution, unless you cultivate a culture of deliberately avoiding trying to make the instruction characters meaningful.
22:43:44 <cpressey> And the spec wouldn't define any of this. It would just define a distributed standards process: if you want some instructions to do something, start a blog, use the phrase "Befunge-111 Standards Proposal" in the title of your blog posts so I can find them with Google, and find civilized ways to deal with conflicts.
22:44:40 <fizzie> (For the "reduce temperature" operation of the weather control machine extension.)
22:44:43 <cpressey> fizzie: I don't know what to do about combining characters. Disallow them, probably, as they could "combine" in 4 directions.
22:45:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, oooh that sounds nice
22:45:28 <cpressey> fizzie: Amazing that my font *has* then, when it barfs on simple Cree syllabary.
22:45:36 <Vorpal> cpressey, you could have them do different things in different directions
22:45:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, actually more than 4
22:46:41 <Vorpal> would be tricky to write though
22:46:49 <fizzie> Unicode combining characters come after the base character, anyway, which sounds a bit awkward. You'd need to do a bit of lookahead, if you'd want to assign semantics on the combination, instead of the combining characters separately.
22:46:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, but you could do code that depends on delta
22:47:08 <cpressey> see this is all why "disallow"
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22:47:45 <fizzie> If the combining characters came before the base character, you could let them combine to whatever the IP encounters next. Though then you'd need normalization if you wanted a "a + combining diaeresis" always do the same thing as ä.
22:48:04 <Vorpal> just go back in time instead of lookahead
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22:50:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> How do we get the Pope out of the Popemobile long enough to be able to snag his hat?
22:50:52 <fizzie> Put out some bait. What do popes eat?
22:51:30 <fizzie> I should be stripping more characters out of the C-style constants b93 program; it's a crying shame that currently FORTRAN, of all languages, is 12 characters (out of 115) more concise than Befunge, using the common "ais523 anagolf C style constants" (AACSC) metric.
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22:54:49 <fizzie> Maybe you could search for "How to get the Pope out of the Popemobile?" in gamefaqs or something; the question *really* sounds like an adventure game hint.
22:54:52 <Phantom_Hoover__> We'll dangle some Eucharist crackers from one RC plane, then when the Pope starts running after the tasty demigod flesh, we snag the hat with the high-speed RC plane!
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22:55:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:56:22 <fizzie> You have to take into account the half-life of god-flesh; doesn't it decay back to cookies pretty fast?
22:57:03 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, one of my father's cousins is a Catholic priest...
22:57:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Or I could go to my local church and pretend to have had a revelation.
22:58:52 <fizzie> I asked Wolfram|Alpha for "half-life of eucharist", but it just told me the word itself has a scrabble score of 14. Again a letdown.
22:59:11 <alise> No match for kwyjibo.
23:01:25 <fizzie> Fortunately, a google books result of a Webster's dictionary has the following: "The bread and wine of the Eucharist. ♦ synonyms: 1. element, basic, ... has a mass number of 272 and a half-life of 1.5 milliseconds. element 112 n. ..."; I'm sure there's nothing important in the "..." part. (But with a half-life of 1.5 milliseconds, and considering how long it usually takes for people to chomp down, there's quite a large percentage of cookie-dough instead of go
23:01:25 <fizzie> d-flesh in what people eat.)
23:01:30 <oklopol> "<fizzie> Put out some bait. What do popes eat?" <<< i just know he shits in the woods
23:01:42 <fizzie> oklopol: Does he shit prime numbers, though?
23:02:00 <fizzie> (A "prime-number pooping pope" javascript page might get some angry comments.)
23:02:28 <alise> Linking to what everyone is already referencing time! http://alpha61.com/primenumbershittingbear/
23:03:42 <fizzie> One of the few things that make me proud of my nationality, that.
23:04:36 <fizzie> Well, he's the *Pope*, I would assume he can detect this sort of stuff.
23:04:49 <fizzie> If not, they surely teach that at the pope school.
23:05:13 <fizzie> Wasn't there the whole infallibility thing too.
23:05:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, what about that Eucharist that still needed safe disposal by trained Church personnel ages after the communion it was stolen from?
23:06:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, surely the Pope could detect someone dangling some god-flesh decay products from a plane above him?
23:06:58 <fizzie> But would he go after that? Well, maybe he would.
23:09:32 <fizzie> Amazon has a paperback called "How to be Pope: What to Do and Where to Go Once You're in the Vatican"; but that doesn't sound directly applicable to hatheism.
23:09:40 <Phantom_Hoover> The plane has a lithium battery; we pack the god-flesh around this. The Pope can use his infallibility in religious matters to detect this threat of spreading dangerous god waste over a large crowd of the righteous, so he runs outside the Popemobile in a heroic effort to shoot it down safely, at which point we fly the RC interceptor in and snag the hat
23:10:00 <fizzie> Misread that as "the pope has a lithium battery"; was going to ask for a citation.
23:11:26 <fizzie> A duracell pope: it just keeps going, and going, and going, and going...
23:12:33 <Phantom_Hoover> We then crash-land the bait near the guards who are, at this point, trying to shoot down the plane with the hat. The guards now need to be degodtaminated by the Pope, so noöne can stop us!
23:15:49 <fizzie> Who are these "we" you're talking about, anyway? Or is this the royal we?
23:17:02 <alise> A nut in rather more ways, I expect.
23:18:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, also, if this fails, you shall have to attempt to steal the hat somewhere in England.
23:18:18 <fizzie> According to a magazine, this is what happens if someone proves that P=NP:
23:18:20 <fizzie> "Computers would acquire mind-boggling powers such as near-perfect translation, speech recognition and object identification; the hardest questions in mathematics would melt like butter under computation’s power; and current computer security methods would be as easy to crack as a TSA-approved suitcase lock."
23:18:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No.
23:18:32 <alise> fizzie: Near-perfect translation XD
23:18:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He's ... rather unflinchingly legal.
23:18:55 <fizzie> They don't exactly specify how it will come to pass, just that it will.
23:19:08 <alise> He won't even break the rules of a nomic game!
23:20:10 <cpressey> You just give the judge a false name after they haul you in, pay your 20 pound fine, and it's back to the Drones that afternoon!
23:20:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, that depends on the constant and/or factor
23:20:46 <Vorpal> it could be be "P but with horribly bad constant" for example
23:21:15 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, because P = NP would give us a P but with a horribly bad constant algorithm for magical translation.
23:21:25 <alise> You are both correct and missing the point entirely!
23:21:35 <Vorpal> alise, that *could* happen. Not saying that it would
23:21:47 <alise> You do not understand what P = NP is. Or... translation...
23:22:18 <Vorpal> alise, oh that? I meant in regards to security
23:22:31 <Vorpal> alise, the translation is obviously non-sensical
23:23:09 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't think I had to point that out
23:23:12 <alise> Then you only pointed out something that we ... already totally knew.
23:23:17 <alise> You really didn't have to point that out, either.
23:23:25 <Vorpal> alise, Captain Obvious at your service
23:23:48 <alise> A figure used to represent a sort of idiocy, I might add.
23:24:15 <Vorpal> alise, yes I know.... I was being sarcastic
23:24:55 <alise> Maybe Vorpal got lost in the wrong direction and got ripped apart by dimensions.
23:26:10 <fizzie> ↑, ↑, ↓, ↓, ←, →, ←, →, B, A. (I wonder if that will do anything in this channel.)
23:26:34 <alise> You forgot to select two-player mode and start the game.
23:26:39 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, is the article in question http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/63252/title/Crowdsourcing_peer_review?
23:26:50 <alise> fizzie: Try pressing START.
23:28:31 * cpressey determines a konami code bot to be strictly necessary
23:28:50 <alise> fizzie hasn't pressed START yet.
23:29:10 <fizzie> I can't decide whether I want to press select first.
23:29:25 <fizzie> I hope it doesn't time out on me.
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23:30:22 <Sgeo> That is one old bear
23:30:28 <fizzie> I did hear the "bling" sound, I guess it did something.
23:30:44 <Phantom_Hoover> My god, should I step up Operation Hatheist to the next level?
23:33:07 * Phantom_Hoover comes back to life with god-radiation from a god-flesh reactor
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23:37:43 <fizzie> I think the moral of the story is that I should perhaps be more careful with them buttons.
23:38:39 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, how do you get the up and down arrows?<-- AltGr-y and AltGr-Y
23:39:41 <alise> yeah untrue, dirty Swede
23:39:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's u
23:40:01 <Phantom_Hoover> And anyway, we've now got a horde of deified Finns coming for us!
23:40:51 <Vorpal> ııııııııııııııııııııııııııı
23:41:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Aren't you thinking of 1?
23:41:45 <alise> Presumably the type of one inhabitant.
23:41:50 <alise> Vorpal: simply typed ...
23:42:00 * alise decides that predicate words shouldn't pop their argument in concatenative languages
23:42:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's called 1 because it has one inhabitant...
23:42:09 <alise> Booleans are 2, etc.
23:42:12 <alise> This is set theory stuff.
23:42:22 <fizzie> I don't know the word "action".
23:46:03 <alise> or whatever you want to call it
23:46:07 <alise> in haskell it's () :: ()
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23:46:56 <fizzie> ı ("latin small letter dotless i") is used at least in Turkish.
23:48:09 <fizzie> They also have a dotted capital I.
23:49:44 <oklopol> HATHEIST <<< does this mean a person who believes in hats, or an especially hateful atheist
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23:51:09 <fizzie> It's a bit problematic, since when case-mapping, often i -> I and I -> i (since that's what is generally expected), even in systems where ı -> I and İ -> i properly.
23:51:21 <Vorpal> oklopol, no, one who tries to steal the hat of the pope iirc?
23:51:34 <Vorpal> or maybe that was operation hatheist
23:55:56 <oklopol> "* alise decides that predicate words shouldn't pop their argument in concatenative languages" <<< and they don't, in japanese you can have multiple verbs using the same arguments
23:56:05 <oklopol> just stick them at the end of the sentence
23:56:40 <Gregor> Japanese ... is a concatenative language ...
23:56:40 <oklopol> i'm not sure japanese is "concatenative" tho, just verb-last :D
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23:57:31 <alise> <oklopol> "* alise decides that predicate words shouldn't pop their argument in concatenative languages" <<< and they don't, in japanese you can have multiple verbs using the same arguments
23:57:40 <alise> dunno about verbs though
23:57:47 <alise> hmm you're totally right
23:57:47 <Gregor> cpressey: Wait, you're in EST?
23:57:51 <alise> default-popping is a bit silly
23:57:54 <alise> although you end up popping a lot i guess
23:58:03 <oklopol> Gregor: when it comes to natural languages, i figured sov is as close as you get
23:58:19 <Gregor> Oh, haw, I'm off by one X-P
23:58:24 <Gregor> In spite of ... being in EST ... >_>
23:59:35 <Gregor> cpressey: So what are you doing in some godawful midwestern state? :P
00:00:07 <alise> hmm it would be nice to have a word like
00:00:09 <cpressey> Gregor: Avoiding the FUCKING CRAZINESS that is EITHER COAST.
00:00:11 <alise> "not- X" -> "X not"
00:00:17 <alise> for obvious reasons
00:00:24 <Gregor> cpressey: The west coast is AWESOMESAUCE
00:01:08 <Sgeo> I might not be that great at recognizing bad fiction, but this movie's horrible
00:01:16 <Gregor> cpressey: Exclude California!
00:01:18 <alise> also basic stack words like swap should be something like ~
00:01:25 <Gregor> cpressey: The pacific northwest is where the awesomesauce is!
00:01:26 <alise> to avoid cluttering code up
00:02:12 <Sgeo> Factor has stuff like keep
00:02:18 <Sgeo> [ somepoppyword ] keep
00:02:26 <Sgeo> And bi and tri
00:02:31 <Sgeo> But yeah, I think I agree
00:02:32 <alise> Sgeo: [ x ] keep is just dup x though
00:02:41 <alise> unless it keeps all dropped
00:02:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
00:02:47 <alise> in which case it's a bit more i guess
00:02:55 <Sgeo> I don't think it keeps all dropped
00:03:02 <cpressey> Gregor: Suck it up if you like, but I left Seattle, and am never, ever going back.
00:03:08 <alise> if we have a while that pops only the condition and predicate words that don't pop their argument you get stuff like
00:03:10 <alise> : loop [read-packet empty? not] [handle-packet] while ;
00:03:25 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, a hatheist is a concerted attempt to steal a hat, much like a bank heist.
00:03:40 <alise> ~ as swap is definitely nice though
00:03:43 <alise> : handle-packet "Received: " ~ cat print ;
00:03:47 <alise> cat for concatenate, ofc
00:04:09 <Gregor> cpressey: Should've gone to Portland then :P (/me will continue to arbitrarily shrink the area considered "awesomesauce" until you have insufficient evidence to refute it :P )
00:04:28 <Sgeo> : ~ ( x y -- y x ) swap ;
00:04:37 <alise> Sgeo: i'm talking about language design
00:04:42 <alise> that's like saying "oh, I can make Lisp do that"
00:04:45 <cpressey> Gregor: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100422184040.htm
00:05:17 <alise> : read-packet 4096 bytes read ;
00:05:17 <alise> : handle-packet "Received: " ~ cat print ;
00:05:17 <alise> : loop [read-packet empty? not] [handle-packet] while ;
00:05:17 <alise> : run connect loop ;
00:05:44 <Gregor> cpressey: Oh please, like such things are unique to Oregon, if you're going to reject anywhere with minor problems, why are you OK with cultural wastelands? :P
00:06:11 <alise> (yes, so [...] is syntax there; i don't give a shit)
00:06:23 <alise> (it's not like it's stopping you reading word-by-word)
00:07:20 <Sgeo> ... is syntax?
00:07:25 <Sgeo> And not just pseudoness?
00:07:37 <Sgeo> Oh, the quote marks
00:08:39 <alise> : until [ [ not ] compose ] dip while ;
00:08:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
00:08:41 <cpressey> Gregor: You think Chicago is a cultural wasteland?
00:08:46 <alise> : until [: not o] dip while ;
00:08:56 <Gregor> cpressey: Oh, Chicago. Well, OK, that's borderline tolerable.
00:08:59 <alise> I don't really need :
00:08:59 <alise> : until [[not] o] dip while ;
00:09:00 <Gregor> I just knew "midwest" :P
00:09:48 <alise> Quick, I need a verb that means "to negate a boolean function f, yielding g such that g(x) === not f(x)".
00:09:53 <alise> But not "negate"; that's too ambiguous.
00:10:12 <cpressey> Yeah, God forbid I was in Minneapolis or Madison or Cleveland or Indianapolis.
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00:11:18 <alise> hmm, maybe -not is nice
00:11:21 <alise> e.g. [empty?] -not
00:11:28 <alise> Even reminiscent of "Yeah, it's empty. NOT."
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00:11:52 <alise> hmm, is there a name for the relationship between if/unless, while/until, etc.?
00:12:23 <alise> I mean in the English language.
00:12:27 <alise> And no, they are not.
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00:12:43 <alise> I would have thought someone enamoured with Factor would have appreciated the readability of code in a relatively natural style.
00:13:18 <Sgeo> I still have yet to get any practice with Factor >.>
00:13:35 <Sgeo> Also, it's only really readable sometimes
00:13:45 <Sgeo> Things life if are annoying
00:15:36 <Sgeo> [ whendoesthishappen ] [ whendoesthisotherthinghappen ] if ! OH!!!
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00:16:53 <alise> Sgeo: what does Factor call w? [x] w -> swap x swap
00:17:17 <oklopol> mixing natural languages with programming ones != natural, but instead ugly and impure
00:17:43 <Sgeo> I _think_ dip, hold on
00:17:54 <oklopol> dip is a fucking stupid command
00:17:59 <alise> [x] dip -> drop x undrop
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00:18:06 <alise> i don't see how it's keep
00:18:12 <alise> [x] keep -> dup x afaik
00:18:16 <alise> oklopol: dip is awesome
00:18:26 <oklopol> awesomeness is a retarded concept
00:19:01 <Sgeo> I don't know if it has a combinator like that
00:19:16 <oklopol> don't even get me started on combinators......
00:20:40 <oklopol> i didn't read the word until now
00:20:54 <alise> oklopol: basically you have your stack A B C D
00:21:01 <alise> x see sthe stack as
00:21:08 <alise> and say replaces C with C'
00:21:18 <alise> i.e. drop x undrop
00:21:21 <alise> or in more sane terms
00:21:27 <alise> send-to-other-stack x bring-from-other-stack
00:21:43 <Sgeo> There's a word "with" that I don't understand
00:22:15 <alise> apparently [ A ] with B === swap [ swap A ] curry B
00:22:21 <alise> that's not very helpful though.
00:22:35 <alise> 2 { 1 2 3 } [ - ] with map .
00:22:44 <alise> a bit ... strange ...
00:23:11 <oklopol> erm applies multi-arg func to one arg i guess?
00:23:21 <Sgeo> curry takes an object and a quot and makes a quot(-like) that includes the object
00:23:31 <alise> 5 [ . ] curry ---> [ 5 . ]
00:23:38 <alise> i.e. partial application
00:24:44 * Sgeo has to try 2 { 1 2 3 } [ - ] with
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00:25:52 <alise> Sgeo: you forgot map
00:26:06 <alise> so oklopol! clearly you know lots about language
00:26:17 <alise> what is the name for the relationship between if/unless, while/until, and so forth?
00:26:19 <Sgeo> That bit's confusing, trying to take it one step at a time
00:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, I suspect those relations are at least partly a construct of CS.
00:28:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: No...
00:28:28 <alise> They're clearly opposites.
00:29:57 <alise> But "opposite" is not very specific.
00:31:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Instead, figure out a good name for the word that composes not onto a word!
00:31:08 <fizzie> Call them inversions, it's a nice-sounding word.
00:31:15 <fizzie> Also very overloaded already.
00:31:19 <alise> That is, "[empty?] -not" === "[empty? not]".
00:31:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: No, I mean, rename "-not".
00:31:58 <fizzie> "ant", short for "antonym"; then no-one can understand it. "[empty?] ant".
00:34:34 <alise> Perhaps "anti", but ehh.
00:35:07 <fizzie> Why not: "[empty?] oh-no".
00:35:07 <alise> : until [-not] dip while ;
00:35:11 <alise> : until [anti] dip while ;
00:35:14 <alise> I'm not sure which is better.
00:35:23 <fizzie> : until [oh-no] dip while ;
00:35:53 <fizzie> : until [oh-no-you-don't] dip while ;
00:36:06 <alise> : unless [not] dip if ;
00:36:06 <alise> : until [anti] dip while ;
00:36:12 <fizzie> "Are you saying no just to be negative?"
00:36:12 <alise> I guess I don't like how not and anti are so different-looking.
00:37:42 <cpressey_> combinator languages are "lexically rich"
00:37:48 <alise> negate is the obvious choice, but...
00:37:59 <alise> 3 negate ==> ERROR
00:38:03 <alise> which is a bit confusing
00:38:11 <alise> cpressey_: in what sense?
00:38:36 <cpressey_> alise: you have umpteen words to juggle the arguments the way you need
00:38:46 <alise> cpressey_: like Lojban!
00:39:07 <alise> ~ is definitely a nicer name than swap though imo
00:39:09 <cpressey_> fizzie: Come come elucidate your thoughts.
00:39:18 <alise> : handle-packet "Received: " ~ cat print ;
00:40:44 <cpressey_> I should check it out but I have so many languages of my own to design
00:41:16 <alise> cpressey_: No, it's "alise's cat"!
00:41:23 <alise> Which is UNRELATED TO THE "CAT" CONCATENATIVE LANGUAGE
00:43:40 <alise> : handle-packet "Received: " swap append print ;
00:43:41 <cpressey_> alise: I made a tiny bit of progress on that apply/ylppa language this week, btw. To summarize, I swapped the meaning of * and / because it's so much saner to have x/x=1. Also 1*x=x, x/1=x. But not in general true that (x/y)*y=x, because, weirdly, 1/x=x.
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00:44:25 <alise> so e.g. a symbol or what?
00:44:27 <cpressey_> 1*x = x because putting anything in the hole is that thing.
00:44:43 <cpressey_> Or, it's like the identity function. f(x)=x
00:45:52 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey.
00:47:23 <cpressey> well, nothing important; it will probably only make sense in context, which I'm trying to write up
00:49:19 <cpressey> (It is tantalizing that (x/y)*y=x holds for many cases, so I keep thinking maybe there is a way to add rules to the system so that * is actually associative, and eventually turn it into a group. But any rules that would work seem gnarly and contrived.)
00:50:06 <cpressey> named holes (actually i've been there before)
00:50:21 <cpressey> ternary operators (don't know how to even begin abstract algebra on those)
00:50:56 <oklopol> there aren't really any algebras with > binary ops afaik
00:51:13 <oklopol> i mean ones that have been named
00:54:14 <alise> <cpressey> named holes (actually i've been there before) ;; DOESN'T EVERYONE NAME THEIR HOLES
00:55:43 <alise> Irritator is a genus of dinosaur :-D
00:55:56 <alise> [[Martill et al. (1996) wrote that the generic name Irritator came "from irritation, the feeling the authors felt (understated here) when discovering that the snout had been artificially elongated."]]
00:56:12 <alise> [[Irritator was first scientifically described in 1996 by paleontologists Martill, Cruikshank, Frey, Small and Clarke.[1] Its only known fossil, an 80 cm skull discovered in eastern Brazil, was badly obscured by plaster which was added by the commercial fossil-collecting fossil-poachers who illegally sold it (the trade of fossils is prohibited by law in Brazil), in hopes of making the fossil look more complete and valuable. For example, "the posterior port
00:56:12 <alise> ion of the saggital [sic] crest... [was] fabricated by fossil dealers."[1] The buyers were not aware of the modifications to the illegally collected specimen, and it required them a great deal of work to reconstruct the original features — hence the name.]]
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00:59:16 <alise> cpressey: HELP ME DESIGN MY LANGUAGE BY MAKING MY HYPOTHETICAL CODE BETTER
00:59:32 <alise> http://pastie.org/1151189.txt?key=rwbueifvabdyjmxseyiuua
00:59:52 <alise> http://pastie.org/1151189.txt?key=rwbueifvabdyjmxseyiuua
01:00:19 <cpressey> well i certainly wouldn't want to perish
01:00:55 <alise> Perish ... OR DIE!
01:01:26 <olsner> alise: it looks like forth
01:01:38 <alise> olsner: no it doesn't
01:01:41 <cpressey> I assumed it was Factor, but not for any good reason
01:01:47 <alise> Forth uses [...] for a completely different thing
01:01:52 <alise> and Joy, Factor etc. use it for the same meaning that I do
01:01:55 <alise> cpressey: no, it's my hypothetical language
01:02:05 <alise> rewrite it in whatever you think is a cleaner style and the language design gets changed accordingly
01:02:12 <olsner> alise: isn't [ and ] completely user-defined in forth?
01:02:40 <olsner> or at least dynamic enough that any definition can be implemented by a forth interpreter/system?
01:02:55 <alise> olsner: i'm referring to what it's defined as by default
01:02:55 <cpressey> alise: what's your goal for this language?
01:03:00 <alise> just like overriding :, you'd have to be fucking stupid
01:03:03 <alise> as it's rather vital
01:03:12 <olsner> (incidentally, I have no idea what [ and ] do)
01:03:19 <alise> olsner: compile mode/interpret mode switches
01:03:42 <alise> cpressey: promote the factorisation of code into short, one-line definitions; have functional expressivity; make code read very literately and concisely, without needless fluff
01:03:48 <alise> (thus the renaming of swap to ~)
01:04:18 <cpressey> what is the meaning of ... in connect anyway?
01:04:45 <olsner> hmm, so '[' makes the code get re-interpreted each time instead of being compiled at the time of definition?
01:05:14 <cpressey> read-packet needs to take... a stream or something... as an argument
01:05:26 <alise> cpressey: ... is a placeholder
01:05:27 <olsner> I should just re-read that forth implementation that was passed around the other week
01:05:29 <alise> obviously read-packet does
01:05:33 <alise> as connect pushes the connection
01:05:45 <alise> and read-packet takes it off the top of the stack (not dropping it, of course)
01:05:46 <cpressey> alise: that was not obvious from the code, you see
01:05:54 <alise> cpressey: it sure is
01:05:59 <alise> you're just not used to concatenative style
01:06:03 <alise> there's no way to indicate passing an argument :)
01:06:08 <alise> olsner: nothing even remotely like what you said
01:06:18 <alise> http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.s.txt
01:06:23 <alise> http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.f.txt
01:06:24 <cpressey> see, some way to indicate that might help "code read very literatelu=y"
01:06:27 <alise> (you read the second file after the first)
01:06:38 <alise> cpressey: so basically you dislike concatenative style. ok. that's not very helpful
01:06:48 <olsner> I have already read both files :)
01:06:57 <alise> i think reading a packet is a very obvious action to take, the rest is just context
01:07:01 <cpressey> alise: I have no idea what ... returns
01:07:16 <cpressey> i feel somewhat unfairly blamed, here
01:07:28 <alise> : connect make-socket-and-connect-it ;
01:07:32 <alise> ... is not actual code
01:07:43 <alise> although maybe I'll use it for the body of unimplemented abstract methods or something
01:07:46 <alise> since it's amusing
01:09:06 <alise> cpressey: i /could/ sprinkle stack effect declarations everywhere, but they're so irritating
01:09:13 <alise> i like my stack effects simple enough that it doesn't matter!
01:09:39 <cpressey> back to "lexically rich". yeah, you might be asking the wrong person
01:10:13 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:10:30 <cpressey> anyway, i never did get to the pizza, so re -->
01:10:49 <alise> : connect socket "some-server.net" (host) 1234 (port) connect ;
01:10:57 <alise> with a less-clashy last word
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01:12:19 <Sgeo> Crawl apparently has a ring of Atheism
01:13:35 <olsner> you have acquired the Ring of Atheism (+1 resistance against religion)
01:17:37 <Ilari> Does it also work against things that work like religions but do not have gods? :->
01:18:30 <Sgeo> I can't find any evidence that I didn't hallucinate it
01:21:00 <Gregor> "molto rubato": Meaningless Italian, meaningful musical Italian!
01:23:30 <alise> mucho molto, molto rubato
01:33:47 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGrQMD6Uqc
01:33:51 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BxFlmb6S6E
01:35:59 <alise> Sgeo discovers Britain
01:44:18 <cpressey> [ "Received: " ~ cat print ] 'handle-packet =
01:44:25 <alise> cpressey: that is not easier to read.
01:44:31 <alise> nor is it significantly purer
01:44:36 <alise> you rely on 'foo being syntax there, for instance
01:45:38 <alise> syntax is user-defined obvs
01:46:31 <cpressey> i can't handle [ ] being mode switches, anyway
01:47:19 <alise> it's not in this :P
01:47:47 <alise> cpressey: Have you ever made an OISC?
01:48:02 <alise> cpressey: Get crackin'
01:48:12 <alise> Lambda the Ultimate One-Instruction-Set Computer
01:48:25 <alise> Also, noted in log: cpressey + pizza = lowercase.
01:49:05 <alise> not a blog reference
01:49:17 <alise> the blog title is a reference to the "Lambda the Ultimate ..." series of papers detailing Scheme
01:49:32 <alise> the ones of that form are
01:49:37 <alise> Lambda: The Ultimate Imperative
01:49:39 <alise> Lambda: The Ultimate Declarative
01:49:46 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Scheme_programming_language#The_Lambda_Papers
01:49:55 <alise> 1977: Debunking the 'Expensive Procedure Call' Myth, or, Procedure Call Implementations Considered Harmful, or, Lambda: The Ultimate GOTO
01:49:55 <alise> 1979: Design of LISP-based Processors, or SCHEME: A Dielectric LISP, or Finite Memories Considered Harmful, or LAMBDA: The Ultimate Opcode
01:50:05 <alise> thus firmly establishing it as a meme
01:50:44 <alise> so clearly the lambda instruction composes an existing lambda, the result of calling another existing lambda with a specified value, and one base operation of your choice
01:50:48 <alise> then stores it somewhere
01:54:22 <Sgeo> The answer to prefix v. postfix is obvious:
01:54:53 <Sgeo> if is good as prefix, tests are good as postfix
01:55:38 <Sgeo> Infix is never good
01:57:42 <alise> Sgeo: you know, you've already admitted you have no idea about Factor or whatever
01:57:51 <alise> so making sweeping statements is incredibly inadvisable :P
01:58:06 <cpressey> even Python has postfix if now. I don't approve of this
01:58:13 <cpressey> Py "no tail call optimization" thon
01:58:19 <cpressey> Unless Guido has gone back on that
01:58:36 <Sgeo> I think my statement is less sweeping than "Always use postfix!" or "Always use prefix!"
01:58:42 <alise> --> if y then x else z endif
01:58:54 <alise> Sgeo: no, but it does state that you have solved the problem and it is obvious
01:59:03 <cpressey> alise: well, 2.x -- not Ancient-ancient
01:59:25 <alise> which is quite frankly insulting to very intelligent people in the language scene who have thought about this a lot and do not find it so obvious at all
01:59:41 * Sgeo wants to make a Multifix esolang
01:59:45 <cpressey> It's obvious that the answer is not obvious.
02:00:04 <cpressey> Sgeo is going all Zen on our sorry asses.
02:01:26 <cpressey> no topology, because the mathematician types are asleep now.
02:03:25 <Sgeo> I think it was the way alise described Factor that made me really interested in Factor
02:03:47 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp7.pdf I've gotten too notationally clever, and Lilypond doesn't like me for it.
02:08:09 <cpressey> My first exposure to Factor was a Factor zealot emailng me out of the blue and telling me I must have seen this language (because I am cpressey) and it's awesome
02:08:29 <cpressey> and I tried to explain that I was more interested in esolangs
02:08:41 <cpressey> and that didn't seem to go through
02:09:33 <cpressey> uh... first example code it posted looks absolutely horrible. Reloading to give it a fighting chance
02:10:17 <alise> i've never seen a factor zealot, interesting.
02:10:52 <cpressey> alise: As you said once, "forth does seem to attract the crazies"... this was possibly an Advanced Specimen<TM>.
02:10:52 <Sgeo> Are there languages that don't have zealots?
02:11:23 <alise> I was about to say Plof, but oops Gregor and pikhq.
02:11:33 <Gregor> alise: Oh you don't even know man.
02:11:35 <Gregor> alise: YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW
02:12:29 <cpressey> So I'm thinking of calling the apply/yppla language "Spade", because it's all about creating holes in things and filling them up again.
02:12:43 <cpressey> And "Shovel" sounded a little awkward
02:13:27 <cpressey> Oh and I was completely wrong: 1/y=1, which is far more reasonable than 1/y=y.
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02:15:18 * cpressey fails to be excited by Factor, again
02:15:19 <Sgeo> cpressey, new example any better?
02:15:23 <Sgeo> And what was the old example?
02:15:46 <cpressey> Sgeo: a bit, but not much. The better example was gen'ing XML. The "so what" example was sending email.
02:16:24 <alise> why didn't they just call Corin Nemec's SG-1 character Corin Nemec?
02:16:47 <alise> i can't even manage to remember his other, normal alien name; Gregor is right again
02:17:19 <Sgeo> Corin Nemelex Xobeh
02:18:23 <Gregor> And he's a SCIENTOLOGIST.
02:18:46 <cpressey> I am offended that I cannot write a Haskell interpreter in about 5 pages of Haskell. If not for that, Haskell would excite me.
02:19:22 <Sgeo> How many pages of Scheme does it take to make a Scheme interpreter? Not counting eval-like stuff
02:19:46 <cpressey> I am offended that Scheme contains insufficient visual differentiation to prevent my eyes from bleeding. If not for that, Scheme would excite me. Also dynamic-wind set! whew
02:20:00 <alise> dynamic-wind set! call-with-current-continuation
02:20:02 <alise> you now have a headache
02:20:14 <alise> <Sgeo> How many pages of Scheme does it take to make a Scheme interpreter? Not counting eval-like stuff
02:20:26 <alise> you can do a decent subset in a page or two
02:20:37 <alise> utilising eval for library functions like display :P
02:21:02 <alise> Sgeo: you DON'T want to know.
02:21:31 <cpressey> Based on the previous two offenses, one might reasonably conclude that a pure Scheme with polymorphic, inferred, algebraicy types would excite me. One might be onto something, if so.
02:21:48 <alise> Sgeo: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.4
02:21:51 <Gregor> alise: I ACTUALLY feel like the current next-gen rewrite of Plof being discussed, btw, is something you'll like.
02:21:59 <alise> Grep for "(dynamic-wind".
02:22:20 <alise> Also, "(call-with-current-continuation", for a more detailed look at how they interact.
02:22:26 <alise> No, I will not help explain; you got yourself into this.
02:22:45 <cpressey> /* You are not expected to understand this. */
02:22:47 <Gregor> alise: Nuh uh, it's not ready for public consumption yet, I'm just TANTALIZING YOU X-P
02:22:50 <alise> Gregor: If I make a completely new design that's awesome and unrecognisable but somehow Plof inside will you accep tit?
02:23:19 <Gregor> alise: I sort of have? Your suggestion for some Forth-related changes, plus a year or whatever of rearranging that and munging it, is fundamental to the new design.
02:23:38 <alise> Gregor: What were my Forth-related suggestions? >__>
02:23:55 <Gregor> alise: Well, your original Forth-related suggestion was basically "replace your bytecode with Forth" :P
02:24:36 <alise> Gregor: That was a good suggestion. :P
02:24:40 <cpressey> so that it fails at parallelizing and goes slower
02:24:53 <alise> cpressey sure is in grumpy old bastard mood
02:24:58 <alise> it failed at that anyway
02:25:05 <Gregor> But my interpretation has become "use the Forth-style of defining simple elements ('words' for Forth) that translate concatenatively to machine code" ... or something like that, I guess it's hard to identify what the chain of thought is now :P
02:25:06 <alise> I can't even begin to imagine how inefficient Plof is.
02:25:18 <alise> Gregor: Bah, but the compiler architecture is what would hel pyou.
02:25:31 <alise> http://plof.codu.org/wiki/Plof4 HAHA I HAVE STOLEN YOUR IDEA WORDS
02:25:37 <alise> AND WILL READ THEM UNCONSENSUALLY
02:25:58 <Gregor> I've totally changed it again since I wrote that. Well, not totally changed it, but everything below that is different too.
02:26:01 <alise> YOU'RE STUPID AND YOU SHOULD FEEL STUPID
02:26:11 <Gregor> alise: Fine, I'll PM you to describe the current work-in-progress design :P
02:26:13 <alise> WHAT DO IF STATEMENTS LOOK LIKE IN THIS YEAR?
02:26:19 <alise> THEY KEEP CHANGING AND SUCH
02:26:23 <Gregor> alise: Same as they have for two years now.
02:26:32 <alise> (I HAVEN'T CARED FOR TWO YEARS)
02:27:05 * Sgeo can agree with that
02:27:16 <cpressey> alise: grumpy old DRUNK bastard, you mean!
02:27:45 <alise> cpressey: DRUNK ON PIZZA
02:28:41 <alise> SGEO IS OFTEN DRUNK ON PIZZA
02:31:05 * Sgeo finds some PSOX-related logs
02:31:21 <Sgeo> And yes, there is a logical train of thought from alise's last statement to that
02:33:53 <cpressey> (no logial train there, just remembering)
02:35:07 <cpressey> btw, http://catseye.tc/lab/madison/doc/madison.html
02:35:35 <cpressey> That is my HTMLification of some notes I scrawled down on a strictly-typed term-rewriting language.
02:35:47 <alise> on the contrary :)
02:36:21 * Sgeo switches his love to Madison
02:36:24 <cpressey> It's even less esoteric than most term-rewriting languages
02:36:48 <alise> "The notation a -> b is read as "a rewrites to b" and means that occurrences of a, when found, are replaced by occurrences of b. Both sides may contain variables; all variables occurring in b must also occur in a."
02:36:54 <alise> then you can use =
02:36:59 <alise> and give it timeless semantics
02:37:25 <Sgeo> "timeless semantics"? Would Haskell be considered to have timeless semantics?
02:37:33 <alise> Sgeo: well i'm not sure
02:37:37 <cpressey> the objective of this (not stated) is to see if you can do the typing also with the rewrite engine
02:37:40 <alise> in a covalent system it doesn't matter which direction you go in
02:38:20 <cpressey> You nondetermine, but, you can
02:38:49 <Sgeo> Is Prolog even TC?
02:39:19 <alise> "Both a and b may contain types."
02:39:24 <alise> i dislike how this isn't fit into the other machinery
02:39:51 <cpressey> alise: I think types are terms
02:39:58 <cpressey> just, you know, specially decorated ones
02:40:09 <cpressey> would need to build it to know.
02:40:21 <alise> how is *List A a term?
02:40:21 <cpressey> (and type variables are like pattern variables)
02:40:44 <cpressey> nil => *List A is problematic, I admit
02:40:45 <alise> hmm i think you need a which-has-a-type operator
02:40:55 <alise> cons x:A xs:(*List A) => *List A
02:41:04 <alise> that way it makes more sense
02:41:09 <cpressey> Types *should* be inferrable for simple programs, but in general, yes
02:41:09 <alise> since the thing on the left is the actual fully-specified call
02:41:14 <alise> you know what i mean
02:41:19 <alise> rather than just putting the types in there
02:41:28 <alise> this way the left hand side is always a valid term for calling just that
02:41:38 <alise> because x:A == x but it only works if x is of type A
02:41:41 <alise> cons x:A xs:(*List A) => *List A
02:41:50 <alise> is only applicable if you give cons an A and a *List A
02:41:58 <alise> of course you need some sort of rule to exclude everything not explicitly allowed
02:42:01 <cpressey> but you're not using x and xs, so why mention them?
02:42:03 <alise> i.e. have no default rule
02:42:11 <alise> cpressey: consistency; right now, your left-hand side terms are nonsensical
02:42:11 <cpressey> the => already tells you "I only care about types here"
02:42:15 <alise> cons A *List A isn't a well-typed expression
02:42:21 <alise> since A is not of type A, and *List A is not of type *List A
02:42:31 <alise> so you have expressions on the LHS that aren't valid or meaningful at all
02:42:56 <cpressey> and A in that expression means "the type A"
02:42:58 <alise> "*List A" isn't a list of As, it's a type
02:43:04 <alise> cpressey: yes. which you can't pass to cons
02:43:14 <cpressey> alise: You're not "passing" anything -- it's a type rule
02:43:20 <alise> yes. which is inconsistent
02:43:29 <alise> because A => B should mean
02:43:34 <alise> "the *expression* A types as B"
02:43:46 <alise> so just as we use variables to denote anything in a rule, we use variables with type tags to denote "anything of this type"
02:43:55 <alise> cons (x:A) (xs:*List A) => *List A
02:44:01 <alise> anything that satisfies the pattern on the left
02:44:11 <alise> anything that satisfies the pattern on the left
02:44:13 <alise> is rewritten as right
02:44:15 <alise> you see the symmetry?
02:44:26 <alise> so basically you just introduce a simple rule
02:44:38 <alise> (x:A) matches a given y iff y matches x and y is of type A
02:44:45 <alise> we can also do polymorphic things like
02:44:55 <alise> assuming lowercase means a variable, but whatever, you get the idea there
02:45:11 <cpressey> I can't see any advantage your notation has
02:45:44 <alise> cpressey: semantics
02:45:46 <cpressey> x and xs are never used, thus redundant. When *would* you use them?
02:45:53 <alise> it makes the semantics of A=>B closer to the rewriting language
02:45:56 <alise> well you could even do something like
02:46:02 <alise> cons(:foo, :bar) => Int
02:46:04 <cpressey> if you like, pretend x and xs are there
02:46:06 <alise> saying that if you pass cons the symbols foo and bar
02:46:16 <alise> if you ever see a foo
02:46:22 <alise> if you ever see a foo
02:46:29 <alise> so the foo on the left should have the full pattern-matching capability
02:46:38 <alise> rather than being restricted to a types-on-left-only non-expression facility
02:46:40 <cpressey> if I wanted to do dependent types, maybe
02:46:51 <alise> nothing to do with dependent types at all
02:46:59 <alise> well i don't have to justify it to you
02:47:03 <alise> i'm right, after all :)
02:47:07 <cpressey> sorry, i misunderstood what you said
02:47:18 <cpressey> the "screw you" was uncalled for.
02:47:30 <alise> i've been ruder to plenty.
02:48:10 <alise> i'll just develop my own language with this :-P
02:48:43 <alise> i mean i guess it does easily lead to dependent types but i don't /think/ that's strictly necessary
02:49:11 <cpressey> i can't see why else you'd care about the *values* x and xs in a *type* rule
02:50:00 <alise> cpressey: my version is the more purist, term-rewriting form i guess
02:50:03 <alise> whereas yours is the more practical
02:50:43 <alise> cpressey: btw, I'm not sure I like the `Foo thing
02:50:48 <cpressey> perhaps... i really don't know. this design was largely to isolate a space that i was playing with in rho
02:50:56 <alise> I don't see any reason not to just have a "type Foo" declaration to let you say just Foo
02:51:03 <alise> injected my own better syntax :-D
02:51:42 <alise> i mean even Pure has a declaration to declare a nonfix (something that has no rewriting or whatever but is used as a symbol, not a variable)
02:51:45 <alise> since e.g. if you had nonfix n
02:51:50 <alise> would match literally n
02:51:54 <alise> otherwise n would be a variable
02:52:19 <alise> heh, and with this instead of nonfix you could just do
02:52:22 <alise> foo : whateverthetype
02:52:24 <alise> and provide no rules
02:52:29 <alise> keep injecting my own syntax
02:52:30 <cpressey> I agree there maybe need to be some decls. Also the lack of parens on constructors -- could lead to ambiguity
02:52:59 <alise> ADTs are nice with this
02:53:49 <cpressey> anyway, between this, and Spade, and Pophery, and an overriding urge to compile C programs for AmigaOS 1.3... well, "work cut out" seems like an understatement.
02:55:21 <cpressey> .NET is to satisfy that "sick" urge, like coding in Falcon would
02:55:22 <alise> cpressey: i think you should maybe make stuff the more boring a(b,c,d,...)
02:55:30 <alise> since your types right now are near-incomprehensible
02:55:56 <cpressey> even(nil) -> true. even(cons(H,T)) -> not(even(T)).
02:56:10 <alise> even (cons H T) -> not (even T). ;; doesn't really buy you much
02:56:39 <alise> cpressey: the => rules look quite similar to -> rules
02:56:42 <alise> a bit confusing when reading a function
02:57:04 <alise> cpressey: ofc you do get an x vs x() confusion
02:57:15 <alise> (I recommend making them identical; i.e. x() is just a silly way to write x.)
02:57:48 -!- benuphoenix has joined.
02:57:50 <cpressey> alise: could do like: types true -> Bool; false -> Bool; end types. rules not(true) -> false; not(false) -> true; end rules.
02:57:59 <alise> cpressey: oh, and if you're totally boring, capitalise the first letter of variables to make it clear which are literal symbols and which are variables
02:58:19 <cpressey> capital letter rule is already in effect
02:58:41 <alise> then you don't need *List
02:58:45 <cpressey> it's boring and doesn't scale to other character systems, but hey
03:00:06 <cpressey> so mono-2.0-devel does not come with ilasm, but mono-1.0-devel does? ripoff!
03:00:50 <cpressey> I've been meaning to write a compiler from PL-{GOTO} to .NET for a long time.
03:01:06 <cpressey> The stupidity of the goal apparently does not phase me.
03:02:06 <cpressey> alise: Also: Underload interpreter in C.
03:02:15 <cpressey> Should be easy. Not been done.
03:02:20 <alise> there's an anagolf for that
03:02:22 <alise> so yes, yes it has been done
03:02:26 <alise> also, I wrote a compiler to C
03:02:32 <Sgeo> ilasm is an anagram of islam!
03:02:33 <alise> so if you bundled a scheme interpreter and gcc...
03:02:35 <cpressey> anagolf for an underload interpreter?
03:02:51 <alise> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Underload+interpreter
03:03:06 <alise> n,A,C,E,s[1<<20],*r;main(c,X){char*p=s,*q=p-~read(0,p,s);for(r=X;c=*p++,A=c!=97,C=c==42,E=c==94,X=c==40,c*n?n+=X-=c==41,*q++=n?c:!++r,1:!A|C|E?q-=~sprintf(E?p=q:(*r=q),"(%s%s"+A,E[r-=C+E],E?p:C?*r:")"):c-33?r[1]=X?++n,q:c=='~'?X=*--r,*r++=r[1],X:c-58?X=c==83,c-60&&c|n&&printf(X?"%s":"\nErr'%c'",X?*r--:n?40:c),X:*r++:--r;);}
03:03:22 <alise> it even has error messages
03:03:30 <alise> all in 325 dubiously-legal characters
03:03:32 <cpressey> Would kind of prefer a lot a *reasonable* C implementation, but beggars can't be choosers.
03:03:41 <alise> cpressey: you can easily expand that
03:03:46 <alise> anyway it's not difficult to write one
03:04:16 <alise> cpressey: Name it and I'll write one in a few lines.
03:05:10 <alise> Name the interpreter. :P
03:06:30 <Sgeo> Write it in Factor!
03:07:03 <alise> cpressey: Interpreters need names!
03:07:19 <Sgeo> Oh, it's a golf thing
03:09:10 <cpressey> yay! even under Linux, ilasm takes command line options that are introduced with "/".
03:10:02 <cpressey> Well, the anagolf version will not compile under DICE C (surprise!) and I totally do not understand how it works (surprise!).
03:10:31 <alise> it uses argv as the stack
03:10:48 <cpressey> that helps explain some, but how does it concatenate strings?
03:11:09 <cpressey> Sgeo: a compiler for AmigaOS 1.3
03:13:45 <cpressey> OK there's something I don't get about Underload
03:14:46 <cpressey> I like how it's so very nearly a push-down automaton
03:14:55 <cpressey> Except for the ()'ing and the eval'ing
03:19:35 <cpressey> I think you can implement swap in a PDA though. Well you could if both stack elements are bounded. Here, I dunno.
03:20:23 <alise> cpressey: Psht, my OS doesn't like a 2^20 x 2^20 array.
03:21:04 <alise> It's broken for other reasons!
03:21:44 <alise> [ehird@dinky ulc]$ ./ulc
03:21:44 <alise> Segmentation fault
03:21:51 <alise> It's broken for that reason, but others too!
03:22:18 <alise> cpressey: There is only one reasonable solution: Use the C stack as a stack! Oh yes!
03:22:59 <alise> cpressey: My compiler is more impressive, anyway.
03:23:31 <alise> cpressey: Get a stack pointer, make sure you can make calls with foo(); without that trashing the stack, have fun.
03:23:47 <alise> Recurse for ^, obviously. If you take the code as the first argument, just set up the stack and then don't push any code.
03:23:59 <alise> Call and it should take the first thing on the stack -- the first Underload stack element -- as the code.
03:26:44 * cpressey plays Temple of Apshai instead
03:27:51 <cpressey> no, I am going to implement it. in C. but pedantically.
03:29:44 <cpressey> and it's going to have horrible memory performance because it's going to call malloc/free all over
03:30:31 <alise> data NestedList t = NLNil
03:30:31 <alise> | NLCons (t (Nested t)) (NestedList t)
03:30:31 <alise> | NLNest (Nested t) (NestedList t)
03:30:31 <alise> data Blimped t = X (t (Blimped t))
03:30:31 <alise> blimp :: NestedList t -> [Blimped t]
03:30:33 <alise> cpressey: write it for me.
03:33:40 <cpressey> whats all this about blimps then
03:34:08 <alise> cpressey: the flattening procedure essential to my Underload compiler architecture
03:34:15 <alise> basically, it turns a nested structure into a bunch of pointers
03:35:05 <cpressey> I was just going to ask, ^ doesn't have to be the last instruction in an Underload program, DOES IT.
03:35:23 <alise> it would be sub-TC then
03:35:43 <alise> (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
03:35:53 <cpressey> maybe it would, but the style in general is not (Muriel replaces the current program witha new program at the equivalent operator)
03:36:08 <alise> ^ is just a function call
03:36:34 <cpressey> but in last place -- could/should be "tail call optimized" -- as if it were a continuation
03:36:56 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:36:59 <alise> my compiler had tail calls.
03:37:16 <alise> (and yes, it was some gnarly scheme)
03:37:18 <alise> although only a page or so
03:37:23 <alise> because i'm just that awesome
03:38:16 <zzo38> cpressey: The ceiling is up, fortunately, it did not fall down yet
03:38:57 <alise> 08:02:23 <ais523> <hinoe> n,A,C,E,s[1<<20],*r;main(c,X){char*p=s,*q=p-~read(0,p,
03:38:57 <alise> s);for(r=X;c=*p++,A=c!=97,C=c==42,E=c==94,X=c==40,c*n?n+=X-=c==41,*q++=n?c:!++r,
03:38:57 <alise> 1:!A|C|E?q-=~sprintf(E?p=q:(*r=q),"(%s%s"+A,E[r-=C+E],E?p:C?*r:")"):c-33?r[1]=X?
03:38:57 <alise> ++n,q:c=='~'?X=*--r,*r++=r[1],X:c-58?X=c==83,c-60&&c|n&&printf(X?"%s":"\nErr'%c'
03:38:57 <alise> ",X?*r--:n?40:c),X:*r++:--r;);}
03:38:57 <alise> 08:02:35 <ais523> now, /that's/ an impressive Underload interp
03:39:00 <alise> Endorsed by the creator!
03:39:06 <alise> cpressey is up against some pretty stiff competition.
03:39:47 <alise> cpressey: I even went out of my way to make the generated function identifier numbers nicely ordered.
03:39:50 <Sgeo> zzo38, what are your thoughts on Factor?
03:39:56 <Sgeo> If I haven't asked already?
03:39:56 <cpressey> alise: isn't that the same one you posted earlier?
03:40:18 <cpressey> zzo38: Good to hear it. That's what's right and proper, for a ceiling.
03:40:45 * Sgeo disgusts at the notion of right and proper.
03:40:53 <Sgeo> Therefore, I will tear my ceiling down.
03:41:13 <cpressey> alise: The challenge for me right now is just to get it *working*.
03:41:29 <cpressey> I really... I really don't do the obfsctd thing or the golf thing, on some level.
03:41:36 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't really have much opinion, except for one, which is that it is not a good replacement for Forth.
03:41:51 <cpressey> My ability to enter into it is limited. Sad, but there you have it.
03:42:06 <alise> cpressey: anagolf is a great way to practice and hone programming skills
03:42:24 <Sgeo> On a "for embedded/limited environment programming" sense, or soe other sense?
03:42:34 <alise> 17:31:14 <ehird`> FUCK YEAH!!!
03:42:34 <alise> 17:31:15 <ehird`> % ./out
03:42:34 <alise> 17:31:15 <ehird`> (:aSS):aSS
03:42:34 <alise> 17:31:21 <ehird`> I COMPILED FUCKING >UNDERLOAD<
03:42:39 <cpressey> alise: tl; dr There are certain sets of skills as a programmer, and I know I am excellent in some, but this isn't one.
03:42:49 <alise> cpressey: it's fun though.
03:43:03 <alise> 17:26:49 <ehird`> http://rafb.net/p/XEGp7F68.html
03:43:28 <cpressey> alise: I could probably use getting back into practice, yes.
03:43:42 -!- augur has joined.
03:43:47 * cpressey wants to explain what he meant by "enter into it" but it's just too much right now
03:44:20 <cpressey> Or are you talking to your past-self-ehird?
03:44:32 <alise> rafb.net's pastebin got taken down
03:44:36 <alise> and it never persisted things more than like 24 hours
03:44:44 <alise> i'm trying to find my original compiler
03:45:01 <alise> ./08.01.08:10:53:11 <ais523> I saw you were discussing Underload from the logs. How could I not join?
03:45:41 <alise> ah, a pastebin.ca version of ... not my interpreter
03:48:45 <cpressey> mercy me. python has destroyed my ability to ACTUALLY code.
03:49:19 <cpressey> (but it IS weird. I pass this on as a cautionary tale!)
03:52:56 <cpressey> zzo38: (I'm writing an Underload interpreter in C -- one that I can *read*)
03:53:05 <cpressey> (and can compile under AmigaOS 1.3)
03:53:39 <zzo38> cpressey: (Does it work on other computers as well?)
03:54:01 <cpressey> zzo38: hopefully. going to try it with gcc and pcc under Ubuntu
03:55:00 <cpressey> unfortunately, the source code, through a mystic cosmic accident, is called 'stringie.c', and I don't like that as the name of the interpreter. I'm going to rename it 'elephant' because... alise called hers 'ulc' even though I said 'elephant
03:55:42 <alise> stringie is a great name keep it
03:56:07 <cpressey> i may be contractually obliged to, now
03:56:20 <Sgeo> string Internet Explorer?
03:56:51 <cpressey> now... to appease the volcano-gods of gcc error messages
03:56:55 <alise> ./08.01.14:14:20:06 * ehird` is rewriting his underload compiler in Haskell
03:57:00 <alise> NOT BEFORE YOU LINK IT ON THE PASTEBIN YOU DON'T
03:57:04 <Gregor> Spidermonkey Tracemonkey Internet Netscape Gecko Internet Explorer?
03:57:33 <alise> ./08.01.15:11:25:26 <ehird`> ais523: by the way, my underload to C compiler is broken. i've started a rewrite, but eh
03:57:36 <alise> WHY DID YOU BREAK IT
03:57:44 <Gregor> Whoops, missed the 'R', durp :P
03:57:46 <alise> ./08.01.16:09:06:05 <ehird`> who wants to try out the current version of the underload compiler
03:57:49 <alise> ./08.01.16:09:07:01 <ehird`> svn co svn://elliotthird.org/underload
03:58:05 <Sgeo> alise, you don't have any of your old files?
03:58:17 <alise> Yes, on another machine. Somewhere in the eternal depths of its fiery harddrives.
03:58:26 <alise> It's 3:58 am. This is not the time to get that machine out.
03:58:46 <Sgeo> alise, sleepninighty
03:58:55 <alise> Sgeo: Oh, shut the hell up.
03:59:00 <alise> It's Friday/Saturday.
04:00:05 <cpressey> Hm, so when you execute ^, you do not start with a fresh stack? OK
04:00:53 <augur> alise: elliotthird.org isnt a valid website. :|
04:00:57 <alise> cpressey: ^ is "function call", or "replace this ^ with the contents of the item on the top of the stack and keep going"
04:02:09 <alise> 10:49:56 <ehird`> Woot!
04:02:09 <alise> 10:49:59 <ehird`> The underload->C compiler works.
04:02:09 <alise> 10:50:07 <ehird`> It does tail-call optimization and all that jazz.
04:02:09 <alise> 10:50:13 <ehird`> svn co svn://elliotthird.org/underload
04:02:11 <alise> I HATE YOU SO MUCH
04:02:30 <cpressey> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Underlad -- "There is currently no text in this page, you can search for this page title in other pages or edit this page."
04:02:33 <Sgeo> http://web.archive.org/web/20070922130719/http://elliotthird.org/ useless?
04:02:45 <alise> Sgeo: for an svn server, yes
04:02:53 <alise> and for everything else
04:03:07 <augur> cpressey: you're underlad only if he's on top
04:03:27 <alise> once upon a time that domain got to the top of digg
04:03:36 <Sgeo> /nick underlady
04:03:38 <alise> in a move that would probably put Sgeo in a blissful, heroin-esque state for several days
04:03:48 <alise> Sgeo: ALL THE ATTENTION
04:03:55 <alise> augur: well, technically the domain was w.elliotthird.org
04:03:57 <Sgeo> Yes, yes, it would
04:04:02 <alise> envision a site where there is a big number
04:04:10 <alise> if you press this button the number goes up for everyone, in realtime
04:04:14 <augur> alise: envisioning
04:04:15 <alise> now imagine you have a name and password
04:04:20 <alise> it keeps track of how many times you click it
04:04:23 <alise> there is a high score of 30 or so
04:04:27 <alise> of the people who have clicked most
04:04:41 <alise> augur: now imagine this gets popular in a social circle, and then some of them post it on places
04:04:48 <alise> imagine it gets hundreds of diggs
04:04:50 <alise> imagine it gets on /b/
04:04:59 <alise> imagine digg and /b/ both get one account each and hammer away at it
04:05:06 <alise> imagine that somehow oklopol is still near the top
04:05:11 <alise> now imagine it gets to #1 on digg
04:05:14 -!- lament has joined.
04:05:15 <augur> ofcourse he would be
04:05:21 <alise> and ssh to my server
04:05:24 <alise> and it's all broken
04:05:31 <augur> alise: well, oklopol and all
04:05:32 <alise> the mysql logs filled up the whole filesystem
04:05:33 <alise> that's like 4 gigabytes
04:05:50 <alise> http://digg.com/news/gaming/The_Most_Pointless_Website_Ever
04:05:58 <alise> lists as 0 diggs and 0 comments, heh, they sure broke digg
04:06:07 <alise> all the comments are gone
04:06:09 <alise> or, well, most of them
04:06:24 <alise> augur: oh yeah and i put a little realtime-shoutbox-chat thing on it just to see what would happen
04:06:29 <alise> the answer is a lot of niggers and faggots happened
04:06:57 <alise> http://www.bugmenot.com/view/w.elliotthird.org
04:07:00 <alise> you know you're famous when...
04:07:14 * Sgeo ponders stealing alise's idea
04:07:26 <alise> Sgeo: it's dead now. complete luck that it got popular.
04:07:35 <alise> and you have serious attention issues.
04:07:39 <augur> alise: you got a picture of what this looked like
04:07:42 <alise> augur: ...then everyone forgot about me and i earned not a penny from the whole endeavour
04:07:44 <augur> it sounds familiar
04:07:47 <alise> augur: not personally but i could look for one
04:07:52 <alise> it was just all set in verdana, very little decoration
04:07:56 <alise> just a few-file PHP hackup
04:08:00 <alise> updating it was... "fun"
04:08:01 * Sgeo either wouldn't actually do it, or would make a huge disclaimer saying that it wasn't originally my idea
04:08:06 <alise> when it was getting hit hundreds of times a second
04:08:09 <alise> every single person connected
04:08:13 <alise> made at least 3 or so ajax requests
04:08:22 <alise> slicehost must have loooved that
04:09:34 * Sgeo writes on cpressey's memory
04:10:14 <augur> alise: do you have archives of the source?
04:10:22 <alise> augur: yes ... on some machine
04:10:30 <alise> augur: it's php, so frankly a bit embarassing
04:10:38 <alise> i think i even used someone else's ajax library, although i don't recall
04:10:43 <Sgeo> Rewriting in Factor would be an interesting project!
04:10:51 <alise> augur: this was circa 2008 btw
04:11:02 <Sgeo> Then again, finding hosting for Factor stuff sounds like a pita
04:11:07 <augur> so just when we were getting to know each other :D
04:11:14 <alise> it was sajax i think
04:11:30 <alise> either sajax or i did it myself
04:11:34 <alise> it went through like 3 versions
04:11:36 <augur> so how old are you now
04:11:37 <alise> the third one being the one that got popular
04:11:42 <alise> augur: 15 as of august 22
04:11:47 <augur> we've known each other like, what, 3 years
04:12:06 <alise> cpressey: I presume you know what /b/ is...
04:12:12 <alise> augur: yeah well i've been in and out of contact with someone on the interwebnets since i was 8
04:12:14 <augur> alise: when are you legal in the uk? 8D
04:12:16 <Sgeo> ColdFusion porn?
04:12:19 * Sgeo runs in horror
04:12:20 <alise> (or, in human terms, 2004)
04:12:23 <cpressey> alise: Why do you presume that?
04:12:34 <alise> cpressey: Is the rock you live under comfortable?
04:13:25 <alise> augur: Uh, when I turn 16.
04:13:41 <cpressey> Here's me. Here's the so-called "real world", made up of slavering morons. Here's the distance between the two. Comfortable!
04:13:45 <augur> IM BUYIN MY TICKET <3 <3 <3
04:14:11 <alise> augur: But then I won't get £50 from oklopol...
04:14:24 <cpressey> ok now to febug a duckin' semegnation flaut
04:14:31 <augur> oh dont worry, i'll take car of him for you ;o ;o
04:14:43 <alise> Assassination. Well, interesting, if a little extreme.
04:14:52 <alise> Unless you're planning to steal his automotive vehicle.
04:15:00 <augur> alise: well, not assassination
04:15:05 <augur> but certainly a little death
04:15:24 <alise> ./08.01.16:10:50:13 <ehird`> svn co svn://elliotthird.org/underload
04:15:26 <alise> I HATE YOU PAST SELF
04:16:01 <Sgeo> Which model of time-travel do you want me to use to help fulfill this desire?
04:16:02 <alise> it's no longer there
04:16:05 <alise> and i want my fucking code
04:16:13 <alise> Sgeo: the hilarious one
04:16:20 <augur> well why isnt it there anymore
04:16:31 <alise> augur: because i wiped the vps like 29385473495435 times and the domain expired and--
04:16:35 <alise> --it's ancient code.
04:16:38 <Sgeo> I'm sorry, could you be clearer? The one where killing you in the past makes you cease to exist in the present?
04:16:49 <alise> Sgeo: death of the main character isn't good comedy!
04:17:08 <Sgeo> Ok, then one where you turn out to not be Elliott Hird?
04:18:30 <cpressey> just an interdimensional electromagnetic life form "borrowing" Elliott Hird's body.
04:19:01 <alise> SOON I WILL SHED THIS BODY WITH RITUALISED SUICIDE
04:20:06 <augur> ship me the corpse?
04:21:08 <lament> wanna find out just how stiff it is?
04:21:21 <alise> lament: UNWANTED INTERPRETATION DETECTED. PLEASE DISAMBIGUATE.
04:21:25 <augur> bodies dont stay stiff after rigor passes, you realize
04:22:56 <zzo38> Recently I realized something I have forgotten about D&D game, my character can make spider web maximum 60 sq ft (approximately the size of the opening near the room where I play D&D)
04:23:38 <cpressey> hahahaha i had a function char *pop(void) and it wasn't returning nothing thanks gcc for pointing that out
04:24:02 <zzo38> I also wondering if you have heard of the new virtual machine that Nintendo attempt to invent?
04:24:12 <cpressey> zzo38: ... you play D&D in a big room! I only remember playing it in basements and cramped apartments
04:24:13 <zzo38> Apparently it has at least three address spaces?
04:24:41 <cpressey> sigh, everyone and their aunt has their own virtual machine these days
04:24:57 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes I do, but the table is slightly small.... but it is good enough, we have only two player and one DM
04:25:54 <Sgeo> cpressey, I guess I need to make a VM too
04:27:48 <cpressey> Sgeo: have you programmed much in Forth?
04:29:09 <Sgeo> cpressey, almost nothing!
04:29:16 <Sgeo> I'm trying to learn
04:29:46 * Sgeo wonders how easy it would be to take a given Forth and turn it into Factor
04:31:16 <cpressey> One groks functions. The other only sort of doesn't.
04:31:49 <cpressey> how easy it would be to take a given C and turn it into Java
04:31:58 <cpressey> and even then, that doesn't capture it
04:32:20 <Sgeo> Bubut.. the Forth aparser would onyl need to be slightly modified
04:32:42 <Sgeo> And that could be done in Forth for some Forths, iiuc
04:33:05 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe slightly's the wrong word
04:33:19 <Sgeo> And what do you mean by "only sort of doesn't", and which language?
04:35:21 <cpressey> catseye@catseye-laptop:/cygdrive/e/checkout/lab/elephant$ ./stringie '(:aSS):aSS'
04:35:24 <cpressey> (:aSS):aSScatseye@catseye-laptop:/cygdrive/e/checkout/lab/elephant$
04:36:21 <cpressey> Sgeo: I mean that. Forth doesn't really have the notion of a function. It does, sort of, kind of, but no. Whereas Factor is (I hope) built around the notion of a function.
04:36:30 <cpressey> I don't know the details, I admit.
04:36:45 <cpressey> But concatenative programming is not the same thing as... stack-based programming.
04:37:08 <Sgeo> Hmm, what's the difference?
04:37:30 <Sgeo> To some extent
04:37:59 <cpressey> Well, Haskell has combinators, right? "point-free programming".
04:38:09 <Sgeo> Factor's words aren't really pure. There is such a thing as modifiable state, global variables, and ... oh, sorry
04:38:24 <cpressey> Factor is kind of the same approach.
04:38:34 <cpressey> Naw, I'm in no state to explain this. Sorry.
04:39:36 <cpressey> http://www.latrobe.edu.au/philosophy/phimvt/joy/j02maf.html
04:39:43 <cpressey> but that uses too many fancy words
04:41:01 <cpressey> (I'm also assuming Factor is actually following concatenative principles, and not just fudging along somehow)
04:42:03 <Sgeo> cpressey, I find that page fully readable so far
04:42:17 <cpressey> One really cheap way to say it is: Factor (or at least Joy) has theoretical foundations. Forth has none -- only practical foundations. The gap between the two is larger than it looks, because of this.
04:42:49 <cpressey> Sgeo: I thought the stuff about monoids was a bit gratuitous, but what do I know
04:42:59 <Sgeo> I didn't get up to that part yet
04:45:16 <cpressey> ./stringie '(12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~:()~)~*^(a(:^)*~a(*()~)~*^~^):^' ... 1221121221221121122121121221121121221221121221Aborted
04:45:28 <cpressey> I believe I have written a functioning Underload interpreter
04:46:00 <cpressey> That can generate, let's see, about 40 whole terms in the Kolakoski sequence, before its head explodes
04:46:12 <cpressey> I did have an idea for how to make it tail recursive
04:50:12 <alise> cpressey: Meanwhile, I have written the blimper and the parser.
04:50:18 <alise> But I still long for my original horrible thing.
04:50:43 <alise> *Main> let Just x = parse "(:aSS):aSS"
04:50:43 <alise> Nest (Cons Duplicate (Cons Enclose (Cons Output (Cons Output Nil)))) (Cons Duplicate (Cons Enclose (Cons Output (Cons Output Nil))))
04:50:43 <alise> [[Ref 1,Val Duplicate,Val Enclose,Val Output,Val Output],[Val Duplicate,Val Enclose,Val Output,Val Output]]
04:51:01 <alise> *Main> parse "(()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^"
04:52:49 <alise> *Main Data.Maybe> blimp . fromJust . parse $ "(()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)):^"
04:52:49 <alise> [[Ref 1,Ref 3,Val Duplicate,Val Call],[Ref 2,Ref 2],[],[Val Concatenate],[Val Swap,Val Duplicate,Val Call,Val Duplicate,Val Output,Val Concatenate,Val Enclose,Val Swap,Val Call,Val Enclose,Val Swap,Val Discard,Val Swap,Val Concatenate,Val Swap,Val Duplicate,Ref 4],[]]
04:53:18 <alise> ./08.01.23:10:06:31 <ehird> darcs get http://elliotthird.org/underload/
04:53:19 <alise> you're kidding me.
04:54:16 <Quadrescence> Sgeo: The next time you talk about Factor in any channel except #concatenative, I am going to punch you in the colon with my dick
04:54:49 <cpressey> well, ./stringie '(:^):^' is continuing to run and according to top the memory usage isn't going above 1756 so I think it's properly tail-recursive
04:54:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:55:12 <cpressey> still can only do about 40 digits of kola, tho
04:55:15 -!- augur has joined.
04:56:32 * alise wonders how you punch someone in the colon with a dick, exactly
04:59:46 <Sgeo> Quadrescence, I can't even reach that channel
05:03:32 <cpressey> Sgeo: There's someone else with your exact nick in it, then. I don't know how that's possible.
05:03:44 <Sgeo> No, that's #concatenative
05:04:33 <cpressey> Sgeo: Are you going all Zen on my sorry ass again???
05:04:53 <cpressey> I'm not in #concatenative, I'm in #concatenative! OM
05:05:19 * Sgeo is now in #concatenative!
05:05:33 <Sgeo> I think I'm driving cpressey crazu
05:06:34 <Quadrescence> alise: what's up with your chicken shit bull shit too
05:06:57 <cpressey> Sgeo: Well, you're forcing me to read carefully despite the wine goggles. That's almost as bad.
05:07:11 <alise> Quadrescence: I suppose it's a hybrid of both brands of shit.
05:07:55 <Sgeo> How many characters are in what Quadrescence wants me to join, and how many characters in the actual channel?
05:08:01 <Sgeo> Also, why might I be unable to reach it?
05:09:09 <cpressey> Unless you think Quadrescence's comma *following* #concatenative is supposed to be part of the channel name,
05:09:44 <Sgeo> XChat certainly thinks it is
05:09:58 <cpressey> XChat is garbage, it would seem.
05:10:34 <cpressey> No offense, but... "X" in front anything does not exactly scream "quality implementation".
05:10:55 <Sgeo> X itself being a case in point?
05:11:04 <alise> Quadrescence sure is in a fucking bad mood.
05:11:07 <cpressey> Well it's not in FRONT of anything there, but, sort of
05:11:32 <Sgeo> I assume those are older than GTK+ and Qt
05:11:35 <alise> Quadrescence: presumably me too.
05:11:54 <Quadrescence> alise: he joined #TUNES and said to do it in Factor which is the worst idea I've ever heard
05:12:00 <alise> saying bro --> colon punch
05:13:29 <Sgeo> Quadrescence, the only person active at that time was Phantom_Hoover
05:13:42 <Sgeo> And I sort of treated that channel as long dead, anyway
05:14:29 <Sgeo> WHat more of C do you want me to learn?
05:15:11 <Sgeo> #include <stdio.h>
05:15:17 <Sgeo> /Bleh, forgot the header exactly
05:15:19 <Sgeo> //Bleh, forgot the header exactly
05:15:52 <Sgeo> /* Bleh, C commentness */
05:16:06 <cpressey> that's 'stringie the underload interpreter', in case anyone cares
05:16:30 <Sgeo> int showoff = 5; // Variables must come before everything else in a function
05:16:35 <cpressey> one of the only underload interpreters known to be written while under the influence!
05:16:43 <alise> cpressey: apart from all of them
05:17:09 <Quadrescence> Sgeo: thanks for telling me two lines which are parsable in about 100 languages
05:17:14 <Sgeo> printf("%d\n", showoff);
05:18:13 <alise> i see no error with his code apart from the //, which is really arguable as tons of C89 compilers do it, especially older ones, and C99 added it
05:18:17 <Quadrescence> (the line with alleged "showoff" contains an invalid token)
05:18:37 <alise> Quadrescence: so basically this has turned into
05:18:57 <alise> "Quadrescence hates C99, and if you, say, only know C99 and not C89, he doesn't even want to acknowledge your existence"
05:18:58 <Sgeo> Oh, right, the //
05:19:03 <cpressey> alise: in this case I can name the specific wine
05:19:05 <alise> after all, Sgeo's code is perfectly valid C99.
05:19:09 <Quadrescence> Sgeo: I'm glad you have demonstrated the ability to write a C program that is taught in the first hour of a class
05:19:19 <alise> cpressey: "This wine is called LSD!"
05:19:27 <Sgeo> You want me to do pointer stuff?
05:19:31 <alise> Quadrescence: oh right because you can write complex C programs over IRC
05:19:33 <alise> and will on command
05:19:42 <Sgeo> Which is ridiculously simple but everyone thinks is confusing?
05:19:49 <cpressey> programming while actually on LSD would... oh god
05:19:57 <Quadrescence> Sgeo: maybe not make any errors next time around
05:20:37 <alise> cpressey: new life goal recorded.
05:20:42 <alise> Quadrescence: he made no errors.
05:20:47 <alise> Quadrescence: the only errors he made derive from your zealotry.
05:21:06 <Quadrescence> alise: well standards are pretty tight on those things
05:21:16 <alise> Quadrescence: C99 has //.
05:21:25 <alise> you said "learn C", not "learn C89 then forget C99"
05:21:26 <Sgeo> Well, I did try to emphasize that I was being strict :/
05:22:00 <alise> Quadrescence: yet your only complaints were nitpicks about using //.
05:22:02 <Quadrescence> alise: i said "c89" and he continued to make the error
05:22:13 <Quadrescence> alise: there's not much to fuck up on a program like that
05:22:20 <alise> Quadrescence: presumably he didn't think you'd be anal enough.
05:22:28 <alise> anyway, just shut the fuck up; this is worse than Factor talk.
05:22:42 <Sgeo> alise, you're the reason I'm obsessed with Factor
05:22:59 <alise> yeah, and the reason AnMaster is here too.
05:23:03 <alise> we all have mistakes that we have to live with
05:24:42 <alise> i only hope you're layering on the sarcasm
05:24:44 <Sgeo> alise, now I'm curious about that story
05:24:46 <alise> yes it is, Quadrescence
05:24:49 <Sgeo> Quadrescence, the arguments?
05:24:52 <alise> (void) is only required in a declaration
05:25:00 <Sgeo> The (void) junk
05:25:03 <alise> which is irrelevant her
05:25:07 <alise> as it isn't a declaration
05:25:08 <alise> Quadrescence is wrong
05:25:25 <cpressey> int main(int argc, char **argv) { ... }
05:25:31 <alise> cpressey: is but one valid signature
05:25:31 <cpressey> burnt into my brain like a mantra
05:25:41 <cpressey> char *argv[] is what some prefer
05:25:46 <alise> you can also have int main(void). which is the same type as that produced by saying "int main() { ..."
05:25:50 <alise> although in a declaration it would have to be (Void).
05:26:02 <alise> Quadrescence: are you going to accept the correction or just ignore it?
05:26:07 <cpressey> and void main() sometimes works, although compilers vary in the hard time they'll give ya
05:26:40 <Quadrescence> main() has unspecified arguments, the standard recommends using int main(void) or int main(int argc, char* argv[])
05:26:52 <alise> main() has unspecified arguments IN A DECLARATION
05:27:23 <alise> for someone being anal about the standard it is quite surprising that you do not know this.
05:27:54 <cpressey> alise: answering yer questions for ya
05:28:00 <alise> cpressey: THANKS PAL
05:28:08 <alise> -- the only possible followup to that is either going to be disregarding something I say because of my answer, or something utterly irrelevant.
05:28:13 <alise> so i won't answer. although cpressey already has.
05:29:15 <alise> to what end? my age isn't a terribly exciting subject, and i'm very, very tired.
05:30:02 <Quadrescence> btw I genuinely think AnMaster is badass like cpressey is
05:30:08 <Sgeo> I don't feel like an adult when I'm in here :/
05:30:11 <alise> i've been awake since 8:30 or so
05:30:22 -!- cheater99 has joined.
05:30:34 <alise> Quadrescence rates badassery on how well someone can adhere to C89.
05:31:06 <alise> Quadrescence: so basically i've been awake 21 hours. i've had a rather busy day.
05:31:10 <alise> and i haven't eaten in a while
05:31:16 <alise> i wouldn't exactly call that early
05:31:24 <alise> anyone who thinks AnMaster is badass is just retarded.
05:31:26 <Quadrescence> alise: Oh so you're being a dumbass (another kid quality) by malnourishing yourself, kool
05:31:52 <alise> oh shut up, it's been less than a handful of hours
05:32:10 <alise> cpressey: in future, don't answer my questions for me. and i won't answer yours. kthx
05:32:15 <Sgeo> alise, don't turn into me
05:32:30 <Quadrescence> cheater99: did you use freebasic at any point?
05:32:50 <cheater99> alise: take a look to the sky, just before your eyes, is the last tiny will
05:32:56 <Quadrescence> alise: about 2 weeks ago you said you were 13 or something so I knew the vicinity of your age
05:33:10 <alise> well as much as I'm enjoying the Quadrescence-talks-to-kiddies-about-how-kiddieful-they-are channel, I think I'll tune out.
05:33:24 <alise> and then go to bed.
05:33:35 <Quadrescence> alise: I'd like to remind you that you do nothing important, and your "busy day" is really just a "busywork" day
05:33:56 <cpressey> Quadrescence: so, do you enjoy being a jerk, or is it something you can't help?
05:34:17 <alise> Quadrescence: I did an infinitesimal amount of work that goes an infinitesimal amount further to obtaining the most basic level of qualification offered in the country as part of standardised schooling.
05:34:20 <zzo38> Do you think some features in Enhanced CWEB is a closest way to make 'pataprogramming in C?
05:34:22 <augur> oh dear Quadrescence
05:34:27 <alise> which then leads to another qualification which leads to university which leads to academia.
05:34:31 <alise> The work itself, busy, yes.
05:34:34 <Quadrescence> alise: Sorry but you can't measure an infinitesimal amount of something in this day
05:34:41 <alise> But not busywork, as it had an end, however small.
05:35:42 <zzo38> alise: To measure infinitesimal amounts of things, you need infinitesimal numbers that are measurable
05:35:47 <cheater99> alise: it's ok baby, you've been very brave today
05:35:58 <alise> nobody has ever used the word "infinitesimal" in anything other than a hyperliteral sense!
05:36:05 <alise> i'm so ~witty~ for pointing it out
05:36:24 <zzo38> alise: Are you sure? OK.....,,,,
05:36:40 <cheater99> I AM THE FIRST PERSON TO USE THAT LITERALLY.
05:36:44 <Quadrescence> cheater99: nice cheater99 knows more math than alise
05:37:12 <cheater99> Quadrescence: of course i do, but that's not the point
05:37:19 <alise> Quadrescence: i assume you're operating on the assumption that this is going to irritate or otherwise annoy me eventually
05:37:22 <cheater99> the point is, alise's tired, and wants a foot rub
05:37:28 <zzo38> cheater99: I don't use "dx" as infinitesimal, but instead meaning how "x" changes. (It still works out, in the end, though.)
05:38:18 * Sgeo differentiates Quadrescence
05:38:31 <cheater99> alise: so how did this thing start
05:38:34 <alise> Quadrescence: the only reason you're bugging me is to make me irritated.
05:38:48 <Quadrescence> alise: oh no, I don't want to get you irritated at all!
05:39:04 <cheater99> is quaddie here just to piss you off
05:39:05 <alise> cheater99: not pissy at all.
05:39:15 <alise> cheater99: well, he started talking to piss Sgeo off
05:39:17 <cpressey> Yes you two, you need to become upstanding citizens like Quadrescence here.
05:39:20 <alise> then switched to me when Sgeo stopped responding
05:39:24 <zzo38> No, Delta x is the change in "x", what I mean by "how x changes" is something else
05:39:35 <Sgeo> My act together in what sense?
05:39:37 <alise> i guess all Quadrescence really wants is to be a father figure.
05:39:42 <alise> maybe he could try reproducing.
05:39:48 <cheater99> alise: just start talking about something he won't understand anyways
05:39:55 <alise> cheater99: i'm going to sleep in a few seconds, so might as well
05:40:02 <Quadrescence> my dick smells like the wetness of a woman right now
05:40:27 <zzo38> Did you win a big spider, yet? On the other side, did you win $4594.492 yet?
05:40:31 <cheater99> the fact that you have a dick is truly surprising
05:40:44 <cheater99> i thought i was the only Man on the internet
05:40:49 <zzo38> And on the other other side, did you win lose yet?
05:40:53 <cheater99> Quadrescence: google is slow today
05:41:05 <Quadrescence> cheater99: i'm writing a book with a large section on algebra
05:41:21 <Quadrescence> which trivializes octonions from such a standpoint
05:41:31 <cheater99> if you publish it with 'octonion', i'll request a copy and ritually burn it
05:42:21 <cheater99> alise: nighty night little moonray
05:42:39 <zzo38> Quadrescence: What is this book, please?
05:42:58 <Quadrescence> zzo38: you can have a pdf of what it is right now if you want
05:43:32 <cheater99> Quadrescence: it's 'octave' though.
05:43:35 <zzo38> Quadrescence: I don't need a PDF right now, but I would like to know what it is about in general and what title, and so on.
05:43:43 <cheater99> an octonion is a salad out of onions and octopuses.
05:44:15 <Quadrescence> zzo38: "Computer Algebra and Algebraic Programming"
05:44:48 <Quadrescence> zzo38: it is about the theory and implementation of computer algebraic algorithms and computer algebra systems with an emphasis on a paradigm I at least call "algebraic programming"
05:44:51 <cpressey> alise: I don't believe what Vorpal said about j not being well defined for negative numbers
05:45:03 <alise> cpressey: i think it might depend on the semantics of k
05:45:19 <alise> when you put a j on a negative number after a k
05:45:24 <alise> what's the effect of the control flow there?
05:45:44 <alise> but since k says to repeat n times, it'd stack up
05:46:51 <Sgeo> http://www.archive.org/details/Torley_Wong_-_The_Final_Selection
05:47:13 <zzo38> Quadrescence: Maybe you can write a program to go with it, in Enhanced CWEB, and include the program in the appendix (it is possible to change the starting page number, if necessary)
05:47:28 <zzo38> What software (and other things) are you using to write a book?
05:47:30 * Sgeo likes "Lovers' Dance"
05:47:31 <alise> Sgeo: oh yes, the second life guy who went deaf
05:47:33 <alise> unless i'm mistaken
05:47:43 <alise> my memory disturbs even me
05:47:55 <alise> http://music.torley.com/ ;; what how is he releasing new things
05:48:01 <Quadrescence> Lisp and C for actual implementation languages
05:48:34 <zzo38> I think if you want to write C program, try Enhanced CWEB? It is not designed for LaTeX, but it should be possible to make combine book
05:48:37 <cpressey> LaTeX as an actual implementation language. It's the only way
05:48:47 <alise> Quadrescence: either you're joking or just stupid
05:49:03 <Sgeo> alise, hm? Why is Autolisp bad?
05:49:49 <zzo38> Do you know about Enhanced CWEB?
05:49:59 <cpressey> zzo38: If it can be done, someone here needs to do it!
05:50:05 <Quadrescence> zzo38: Well, Enhanced CWEB produces pure TeX iirc, and that is easy to incorporate
05:50:08 <cpressey> zzo38: Only the examples you've posted
05:50:26 <Sgeo> For some reason, I remember reading that Torley went undeaf, but I may have hallucinated that
05:50:49 <cpressey> Beethoven was deaf (from what I understand) when he wrote his very late stuff
05:51:04 <cheater99> those torley wong tracks are so bad
05:51:08 <cheater99> i bet his ears went long before he noticed
05:51:12 <zzo38> cpressey: If what can be done, someone here needs to do what?
05:51:40 <cpressey> zzo38: Write real, computational programs in LaTeX. Maybe by feeding the output of LaTeX back into LaTeX.
05:51:45 <zzo38> Quadrescence: Enhanced CWEB produces files for use with Plain TeX. However you can change the starting page number and put them together.
05:52:28 <zzo38> cpressey: I have written real computational programs in Plain TeX, but it seems LaTeX is too specialized for other kind of things, like typing certain kind of documents... still, I prefer Plain TeX
05:52:39 <cpressey> Quadrescence: so are all algebraic programming experts pussy magnets, or is it just you?
05:52:44 <Sgeo> alise, what's wrong with Autolisp?
05:52:50 <zzo38> Quadrescence: And if you need help with Enhanced CWEB, you can ask me, I might be able to help
05:53:08 <Sgeo> Also, alise, I might need your help with parts again
05:53:10 <Quadrescence> cpressey: I don't really know; I am quite a magnet
05:53:27 <Sgeo> I might be able to get my dad to agree to get parts within 6 weeks of me deciding what the parts should be
05:54:22 <Sgeo> Gaming computer
05:54:34 <cpressey> Quadrescence: surely your raw, irresistable animal sexuality can be attributed to *something*, and if not algebraic programming, then what?
05:55:02 <Quadrescence> cpressey: to the instinctive nature of humans to reproduce?
05:55:09 <cheater99> cpressey: i wouldn't know, it seems like Quadrescence only has that one thing.
05:55:28 <alise> i love how cpressey totally asked for a picture.
05:55:44 <cpressey> Quadrescence: naw, every living creature has that. but you, you're special.
05:56:01 <cpressey> alise: i am so totally not looking at any pictures wrt this k
05:56:28 <Sgeo> It is, in fact, sfw
05:56:29 <alise> it's actually a photo of a mountain of raging bees
05:56:34 <alise> descending on a pack of solid lies
05:56:41 <alise> meeting at the mountain's top
05:56:44 <augur> Quadrescence: why are you all wet in that pic
05:56:50 <alise> augur: you don't want to know
05:57:18 <Quadrescence> Thanks for asking though you are quite observant
05:57:33 <cpressey> Sgeo: wait what parts? for what?
05:57:40 <Sgeo> cpressey, gaming computer
05:57:41 <augur> i like a sweaty grimey man
05:58:29 <augur> Quadrescence: got any more pics? 8D
06:01:23 <Quadrescence> wait the myspace-esque one http://i.imgur.com/iPy0d.jpg
06:01:47 <cpressey> how bout you two move this to pm
06:02:02 <augur> cpressey: but that would defeat the point
06:02:15 <alise> Funge-98 Final Specification
06:02:15 <alise> Chris Pressey, Sept 11, 1998
06:02:15 <alise> revised for clarity: Sept 30 1998
06:02:17 <alise> About this Document
06:02:19 <alise> The Funge Virtual Machine
06:02:27 <alise> Funge Source File Format
06:02:29 <alise> Code: Program Flow
06:02:31 <alise> Instruction Pointer
06:02:35 <alise> Direction Changing
06:02:43 <alise> Data: Cell Crunching
06:02:49 <alise> Stack Manipulation
06:02:51 <alise> Stack Stack Manipulation
06:02:53 <alise> Media: Communications and Storage
06:02:55 <alise> Funge-Space Storage
06:02:57 * augur manipulates alise's stack
06:02:57 <alise> Standard Input/Output
06:03:03 <alise> System Information Retrieval
06:03:05 <alise> Scale: Extension and Customization
06:03:11 <alise> Funge Central Registry
06:03:15 <alise> Instruction Quick Reference
06:03:17 <alise> Concurrent Funge-98
06:03:27 <alise> Funges are programming languages whose programs are typically expressed in a given topological pattern and number of dimensions.
06:03:30 <alise> Funge-98 is currently an official prototype standard for Funges. Funge-98 has evolved from Funge-97, which was a generalization of Befunge-97, which was an improvement over Befunge-96, which was an update of the original Befunge-93 language definition.
06:03:34 <alise> Funge-98 is a class of three real and officially sanctioned programming languages (Unefunge, Befunge, and Trefunge) and provides a paradigm for describing any number of imaginary ones with different topologies and any number of dimensions.
06:03:38 <alise> The most popular Funge by far is Befunge, which is two-dimensional and based on a Cartesian Lahey-Space (or Cartesian Torus, in Befunge-93 only) topology. Other Cartesian Lahey-Space Funges include Unefunge (one-dimensional) and Trefunge (three-dimensional.) Since not all Funge instructions are appropriate in all Funges, comparison to Befunge is often used to clarify points in this document.
06:03:43 <alise> About this Document
06:03:45 <alise> This is a final document. The information it contains has been formally approved and it is endorsed by its supporters as the 'official' technical specification of the Funge language family.
06:03:48 <alise> This document is suitable
06:03:49 <augur> ALISE I WILL FUCK YOU UP
06:03:54 <alise> Funges are programming languages whose programs are typically expressed in a given topological pattern and number of dimensions.
06:03:56 <Sgeo> alise, you're spamming
06:03:57 <alise> Funge-98 is currently an official prototype standard for Funges. Funge-98 has evolved from Funge-97, which was a generalization of Befunge-97, which was an improvement over Befunge-96, which was an update of the original Befunge-93 language definition.
06:04:01 <Sgeo> /flushq or similar?
06:04:01 <alise> Funge-98 is a class of three real and officially sanctioned programming languages (Unefunge, Befunge, and Trefunge) and provides a paradigm for describing any number of imaginary ones with different topologies and any number of dimensions.
06:04:05 <alise> The most popular Funge by far is Befunge, which is two-dimensional and based on a Cartesian Lahey-Space (or Cartesian Torus, in Befunge-93 only) topology. Other Cartesian Lahey-Space Funges include Unefunge (one-dimensional) and Trefunge (three-dimensional.) Since not all Funge instructions are appropriate in all Funges, comparison to Befunge is often used to clarify points in this document.
06:04:10 <augur> Sgeo: i suspect he accidentally send the whole thing
06:04:10 <alise> About this Document
06:04:12 <alise> This is a final document. The information it contains has been formally approved and it is endorsed by its supporters as the 'official' technical specification of the Funge language family.
06:04:15 <alise> This document is suitable for an audience not already familiar with any Funge of any kind or year.
06:04:17 <alise> The Funge Virtual Machine
06:04:18 <augur> and it wont stop till it sends it all
06:04:21 <alise> Any given piece of code or data in a Funge can be stored in one of two places (called a cell):
06:04:23 <alise> Funge-Space, a matrix appropriate to the dimensionality, topology and tiling pattern of the Funge, where each node in its topological net contains a cell; or
06:04:26 <alise> the stack in Befunge-93 or the stack stack in Funge-98; either way, it's often called the stack and it's accessed as a last-in, first-out (LIFO) stack of cells.
06:04:29 <alise> Befunge-93 defines signed 32-bit stack cells and unsigned 8-bit Funge-Space cells. In Funge-98, stack and Funge-Space cells alike should be treated as signed integers of the same size.
06:04:32 <augur> the rate its going seems like that
06:04:32 <alise> What size exactly is left up to the impl
06:04:32 <Sgeo> Flushq on XChat stops sending
06:04:36 <alise> 32 bits is typical. 16 bit and 8 bit versions are discussed as separate variations on Funge-98. More than 32 bits is just fine. The important thing is that the stack cells have the same memory size as the Funge-Space cells.
06:04:41 <alise> In Befunge-93, Funge-Space is restricted to 80 cells in the x dimension and 25 cells in the y dimension. No such limits are imposed on Funge-98 programs. A Funge-98 interpreter, ideally, has an addressing range equal to that of its cell size. i.e. A 32-bit implementation of Funge-98 uses signed 32-bit integers as each of its coordinate indices.
06:04:43 <Sgeo> Don't know what the equiv is for alise's client
06:04:46 <alise> With such a large typical addressing range, the Funge-98-Space is generally considered to be dynamically allocated by some behind-the-scenes mechanism in the compiler. It needn't be, of course, but in practice, it usually is.
06:04:49 <alise> So, the storage mechanism has be consistently trustworthy about how it provides Funge-Space to the running program. A Funge-98 program should be able to rely on all code and data that it puts in Funge-Space through this mechanism not disappearing. A Funge-98 program should also be able to rely on the memory mechanism acting as if a cell contains blank space (ASCII 32) if it is unallocated, and setting memory to be full of blank space cells upon actual alloc
06:04:54 <alise> ation (program load, or p instruction). If the underlying memory mechanism cannot provide this (e.g. no more memory is available to be allocated,) the interpreter should complain with an error and do what it can to recover, (but not necessarily gracefully).
06:04:58 <alise> The co-ordinate mapping used for both Befunge-93 and Funge-98 reflects the "Computer Storage" co-ordinate system used in screen graphics and spreadsheets; a larger y coordinate means further down the page. Compared to a standard mathematical representation
06:05:02 <alise> of the usual Cartesian co-ordinate system, it is upside-down.
06:05:03 <Sgeo> alise, Alt-F4?
06:05:04 <alise> Befunge-93 32-bit Befunge-98
06:05:06 <alise> ========== =================
06:05:08 <alise> 0 x 79 |-2,147,483,648
06:05:10 <alise> 0+-------------+ |
06:05:16 <alise> y| -2,147,483,648 | 2,147,483,647
06:05:25 <Sgeo> cpressey, wha?
06:05:26 <alise> The Funge stack stack is a LIFO stack of typical LIFO stacks of cells. In Befunge-93, only two operations are possible on only one stack (referred to as the stack): to push a cell onto the top of the stack, and to pop a cell off the top of the stack.
06:05:30 <alise> In the case of Funge-98, however, the stack refers to the topmost stack on the stack stack. The push and pop operations are possible on the stack stack as well, but they push and pop entire stacks.
06:05:33 <alise> There is also a Funge-98 instruction to rid the stack (that is, the topmost stack of the stack stack) of cells, completely emptying it.
06:05:36 <alise> If a program attempts to pop a cell off the stack when it is empty, no error occurs; the program acts as if it popped a 0.
06:05:39 <augur> he cant respond at all i think
06:05:39 <alise> In this document, short stacks are generally notated left to right to mean bottom to top. The leftmost values listed in the documentation are the bottommost and the first to be pushed onto the stack. Long stacks are notated top to bottom, to mean precisely that, top to bottom..
06:05:43 <alise> Funge Source File Format
06:05:45 <alise> A Befunge-93 source (program) file name, by common convention, ends in the extension .bf. There is no enforced convention for what any given Funge-98 source file name ends in (e.g. you could easily write a C-Befunge polyglot whose file name ends in .c), but .b98 is a good choice for Befunge-98 sources - "standard" example programs use this suffix.
06:05:50 <alise> Befunge-93 source files are plain text files containing only printable ASCII characters and the end-of-line controls described below.
06:05:53 <alise> Funge-98 source files are made up of Funge characters. The Funge-98 character set overlays the ASCII subset used by Befunge-93 and may have characters greater than 127 present in it (and greater than 255 on systems where characters are stored in multiple bytes; but no greater than 2,147,483,647.) The Funge character set is 'display-independent.' That is to say, character #417 may look like a squiggle on system Foo and a happy face on system Bar, but the mea
06:05:58 <alise> ning is always the same to Funge, 'character #417', regardless of what it looks like.
06:06:00 <alise> In other words, what Funge characters look like on a particular computer or OS depends entirely on that computer or OS. However, when characters are not generally considered to be printable, they can have special meaning to Funge-98:
06:06:02 <Sgeo> E can still Alt-F4 or worst-comes-to-worst, hard-reset
06:06:04 <alise> 0..31 : "ASCII controls" (only 10 is currently defined to mean EOL)
06:06:06 <alise> 32..126 : "ASCII printable characters" (all are input/output and fixed-width)
06:06:08 <Quadrescence> (15 year olds are known for their immature spamming; maturity doesn't come till later for most (modulo a few special exceptions))
06:06:08 <alise> 127 : "delete control" (undefined)
06:06:10 <alise> 128..2bil: "extended printable characters" (machine and font specific)
06:06:10 <Sgeo> Assuming e sees any of this
06:06:12 <alise> In Befunge-93, each line ends with the current operating system's "end of line" character, which may be a line feed (10) (Linux), carriage return (13) (MacOS), or carriage return-line feed (13, 10) (MS-DOS).
06:06:15 <alise> In Funge-98, however, any of the following sequences should, ideally, be recognized by the interpreter as an end-of-line marker, no matter what operating system it's running on:
06:06:20 <alise> Carriage Return (13)
06:06:22 <alise> Carriage Return, Line Feed (13, 10)
06:06:24 <alise> If an interpreter cannot support all three varieties of end-of-line marker, it should be clearly noted in that interpreter's documentation.
06:06:27 <alise> End-of-line markers do not appear in Funge-Space once the program is loaded.
06:06:29 <alise> In Befunge-93, each line can contain up to 80 significant characters before the "End of Line" marker. There can be up to 25 such lines in the source file. There are no such restrictions on Befunge-98 and the user can reasonably expect to be able to have as many lines of as many characters as they want, for non-contrived cases.
06:06:33 <alise> Before load, every cell in Funge-Space contains a space (32) character. These default contents are written over by characters in the program source when it is loaded. However, spaces in the program source do not overwrite anything in Funge-Space; in essence the space character is transparent in source files. This becomes important when the i "Input File" instruction is used to include overlapping files.
06:06:38 <alise> The source file begins at the origin of Funge-Space. Subsequent columns of characters increment the x coordinate, and subsequent lines increment the y coordinate (if one is present) and reset the x coordinate to zero. Subsequent lines in Unefunge are simply appended to the first, and the end of the source file indicates the end of the (single) line. End-of-line markers are never copied into Funge-Space.
06:06:43 <alise> In Trefunge-98, the Form Feed (12) character increments the z coordinate and resets the x and y coordinates to zero.
06:06:46 <alise> Code: Program Flow
06:06:48 <alise> Instruction Pointer
06:06:50 <alise> The instruction pointer (IP) can be thought of as a vector (set of co-ordinates) which represents the "current position" of a running Funge program. It holds the same function as the instruction pointer (or program counter (PC)) in any other language or processor - to indicate where the currently executing instruction is located.
06:06:56 <alise> In most other languages and machines (both virtual and real,) the IP/PC is restricted to unidirectional travel in a single dimension, with random jumps. However, in Funge, the IP keeps track of another vector called the delta. Every tick, the IP executes its current instruction (that is, the instruction at the location pointed to by the IP), then travels to a new location, by adding its delta vector to its position vector.
06:07:01 <alise> At the beginning of a program, in Funge-98 as in Befunge-93, the IP always begins at the origin and starts with a delta of (1, 0). The origin is (0, 0) in Befunge, (0) in Unefunge, and (0, 0, 0) in Trefunge.
06:07:04 <alise> In two dimensions, we have the following terminology.
06:07:06 <alise> If the IP's delta is either (0,-1) (south), (1,0) (east), (0,1) (north), or (-1,0) (west), it is said to be traveling cardinally. This is the same as how a rook moves in chess and this is in fact the only way the IP can move in Befunge-93.
06:07:10 <alise> Any IP with a nonzero delta is considered moving. Any IP with a zero delta is said to be stopped. Any moving IP that is not traveling cardinally is said to be flying.
06:07:15 <alise> All standard instructions are one character long and range from ASCII 32 (space) to ASCII 126 (~). There are no multicharacter instructions in Funge.
06:07:18 <alise> An instruction is executed by an IP every tick. The IP executed is the one at the current position of the IP. Only after that does the IP moves by its delta to a new position.
06:07:18 <cpressey> Quadrescence: I'm surprised how little you understand
06:07:21 <alise> Instructions A to Z all initially act like the r "Reflect" instruction. However, other instructions assign semantics to these instructions dynamically, allowing the Funge programmer to use libraries of both standard and proprietary instruction sets tagged with unique ID's (or fingerprints.)
06:07:25 <alise> However, a Funge-98 interpreter may also expose any number of proprietary instructions above ASCII 127 or below ASCII 0.
06:07:26 <augur> can someone please kick alise
06:07:28 <alise> For all these reasons, when encountering any unimplemented instruction (this includes instructions like | in Unefunge,) the Funge interpreter should at least provide an option for informing the user that it was told to execute an instruction that isn't implemented, and possibly warning the user that this file might be an incorrect language or version.
06:07:33 <alise> An unimplemented instruction must otherwise act as if r was executed, and must not touch the stack. All undefined or otherwise unimplemented instructions must be considered unimplemented.
06:07:36 <alise> Also, any of the instructions t (concurrent execution,) = (execute,) i (input-file,) and o (output-file) may be unavailable in different interpreters for many reasons, and are routinely bound to (i.e. act just like) r as well. However, they may also act like r when they fail to exec
06:07:39 <Sgeo> Is oerjan an op?
06:07:40 <alise> ute. To test if they are actually supported, execute 1y and examine the cell it produces.
06:07:42 <alise> Direction Changing
06:07:44 <alise> A few instructions are essential for changing the delta of the IP. The > "Go East" instruction causes the IP to travel east; the < "Go West" instruction causes the IP to travel west. These instructions are valid in all Funges.
06:07:48 <alise> The ^ "Go North" instruction causes the IP to travel north; the v "Go South" instruction causes the IP to travel south. These instructions are not available in Unefunge.
06:07:48 * Sgeo wants to be an op
06:07:51 <alise> The h "Go High" instruction causes the IP to travel up (delta <- (0,0,1)); the l "Go Low" instruction causes the IP to travel down (delta <- (0,0,-1)). These instructions are not available in Unefunge or Befunge.
06:07:53 <cpressey> Quadrescence: actually no, I guess I'm not that surprised
06:07:54 <alise> The ? "Go Away" instruction causes the IP to travel in a random cardinal direction appropriate to the number of dimensions in use: east or west in Unefunge; north, south, east or west in Befunge, etc.
06:07:57 <alise> The following instructions are not in Befunge-93, but they are in Funge-98.
06:07:59 <alise> The ] "Turn Right" and [ "Turn Left" instructions rotate by 90 degrees the delta of the IP which encounters them. They always rotate on the z axis. These instructions are not available in Unefunge.
06:08:02 <alise> To remember which is which, visualize yourself on the seat of a bicycle, looking down at the handlebars:
06:08:18 <alise> Turn LeftGo ForwardTurn Right
06:08:20 <alise> The r "Reverse" instruction multiplies the IP's delta by -1. In two dimensions, this is the equivalent of reflecting the delta of the IP about the z-axis.
06:08:21 <cpressey> Quadrescence: would you ever say anything to contradict me?
06:08:23 <alise> The x "Absolute Vector" instruction pops a vector off the stack, and sets the IP delta to that vector.
06:08:25 <alise> A vector on the stack is stored bottom-to-top, so that in Befunge, x (and all other vector-popping instructions) pops a value it calls dy, then pops a value it calls dx, then sets the delta to (dx, dy).
06:08:26 <Sgeo> Might alise be vulnerable to some exploit?
06:08:30 <alise> Befunge-93 handles the case of the IP travelling out of bounds (off the map of Funge-Space) by treating the space as a torus. If the IP leaves the west edge, it reappears on the east edge at the same row; if it leaves the south edge, it reappears at the north edge at the same column, and vice versa in both cases.
06:08:34 <alise> For various reasons, toroidal wrapping is problematic in Funge-98. Instead, we use a special wrapping technique that has more consistent results in this new, more flexible environment where Funge-Space can have an arbitrary size and the IP can fly. It is called same-line wrapping.
06:08:35 <augur> Sgeo: a funge exploit?
06:08:38 <alise> Same-line wrapping can be described in several ways, but the crucial idea it encompasses is this: unless the delta or position of the IP were to be changed by an intervening instruction, the IP will always wrap such that it would eventually return to the instruction it was on before it wrapped.
06:08:42 <alise> The mathematical description of same-line wrapping is known as Lahey-space wrapping, which defines a special topological space. It is generally of more interest to topologists and mathematicians than programmers. We won't cover it here, but it is included in the Appendix for completeness.
06:08:46 <alise> The algorithmic description of same-line wrapping can be described as backtrack wrapping. It is more of interest to Funge interpreter implementers than Funge programmers. However, it does describe exactly how the wrapping acts in terms that a programmer can understand, so we will include it here.
06:08:47 <Sgeo> Some exploit that tends to kick people off IRC
06:08:50 <alise> When the IP attempts to travel into the whitespace between the code and the end of known, addressable space, it backtracks. This means that its delta is reversed and it ignores (skips over without executing) all instructions. Travelling thus, it finds the other 'edge' of code when there is again nothing but whitespace in front of it. It is reflected 180 degrees once more (to restore its original delta) and stops ignoring instructions. Execution then resumes
06:08:55 -!- augur has set topic: ALISE: poke me when you're not spamming anymore. | The cheesy channel (cheddar) | Also combûter programming | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? You should've voted: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
06:08:55 <alise> normally - the wrap is complete.
06:08:59 <alise> It is easy to see at this point that the IP remains on the same line: thus the name. (Also note that this never takes any ticks in regards to multithreading, as would be expected from any wrapping process.)
06:09:02 <alise> Same-line wrapping has the advantage of being backward-compatible with Befunge-93's toroidal wrapping. It also works safely both when the IP delta is flying (non-cardinal), and when the size of the program changes.
06:09:05 <alise> As noted, by default every cell in Funge-Space contains a space (32) character. (This holds true with most decent Befunge-93 interpreters, too, although it was not in the original.)
06:09:06 * cpressey watches his beautiful beautiful spec fling through the aether
06:09:08 <Quadrescence> cpressey: One day you'll be on good terms with me I hope!
06:09:08 <alise> In Befunge-93, when interpreted as an instruction, a space is treated as a "no operation" or nop. The interpreter does nothing and continues on its merry way.
06:09:11 <alise> Funge-98 acts much the same way, except technically, Funge-98 processes any number of spaces in "no time whatsoever", and this becomes important when you have more than one IP in Funge-Space at the same time (multithreading), which you'll read about later. For an explicit nop instruction in Funge-98, use z.
06:09:15 <alise> Space also takes on special properties (in Funge-98) with a special mode of the interpreter called stringmode, which you'll also read about late
06:09:20 <alise> The # "Trampoline" instruction moves the IP one position beyond the next Funge-Space cell in its path.
06:09:22 <alise> The @ "Stop" instruction kills the current IP. In non-Concurrent Funge, there is only a single IP. Either way, when no IP's are left alive, the program will subsequently end with no error (returning error code 0).
06:09:25 <alise> The following instructions and markers are not in Befunge-93, but they are in Funge-98.
06:09:27 <alise> The ; "Jump Over" marker causes the IP to jump over all subsequent instructions until the next ; marker. Like space, this takes zero ticks to execute, so that subroutines, comments, and satellite code can be insulated by surrounding it with ; markers, with no effect on multithreading.
06:09:31 <alise> ; is truly ethereal; like space, it cannot ever be truly executed, in the sense of it taking up a tick and doing something.
06:09:33 <cpressey> Quadrescence: you don't even know *that*
06:09:34 <alise> The j "Jump Forward" instruction pops a value off the stack, and jumps over that many spaces. If there is a 1 on the stack, j will work like # does. e.g. 2j789. would print 9 and leave an empty stack. Negative values are legal arguments for j, such that 04-j@ is an infinite loop.
06:09:38 <alise> The q "Quit" instruction, only in Funge-98, ends the entire program immediately (regardless of the number of IPs active in Concurrent Funge). It also pops a cell off the stack and uses that value as the return value of the Funge interpreter to the operating system.
06:09:42 <alise> Note that most operating systems will only look at the least significant byte your return value, unsigned. But you can return a full cell, and the OS will interpret as much of it as it can handle, treating it as signed or unsigned as the OS demands.
06:09:46 <alise> The k "Iterate" instruction pops a value n off the stack. Then it finds the next instruction in Funge-space in the path of the IP (note that this cannot be a marker such as space or ;), treats it as an instruction, executing it n times. This takes only one tick with respect to concurrent operation.
06:09:50 <alise> Note that some instructions don't make much sense within the context of k unless you include zero as one of the p
06:09:52 -!- augur has set topic: The cheesy channel (cheddar) | Also combûter programming | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? You should've voted: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
06:09:53 <alise> n off the stack. Then it finds the next instruction in Funge-space in the path of the IP (note that this cannot be a marker such as space or ;), treats it as an instruction, executing it n times. This takes only one tick with respect to concurrent operation.
06:09:57 <alise> Note that some instructions don't make much sense within the context of k unless you include zero as one of the possibilities for how many times the instruction is repeated. For example, no matter how many times after the first time k execute ^, the result is the same. However, you may pass a zero count to k, and the ^ instruction will not be executed; this can be a valuable behaviour.
06:10:00 <augur> stupid limechat has no /ignore :|
06:10:02 <alise> Also, note k will never, ever actually execute instruction #32, space, or ;.
06:10:06 <alise> The ! "Logical Not" instruction pops a value off the stack and pushes a value which is the logical negation of it. If the value is zero, it pushes one; if it is non-zero, it pushes zero.
06:10:09 <alise> The ` "Greater Than" instruction pops two cells off the stack, then pushes a one if second cell is greater than the first. Otherwise pushes a zero.
06:10:12 <alise> Funge has instructions that act like directional 'if' statements. The _ "East-West If" instruction pops a value off the stack; if it is zero it acts like >, and if non-zero it acts like <.
06:10:15 <augur> WHY ARE THERE NOT OPS?!
06:10:15 <alise> The | "North-South If" instruction pops a value off the stack; if it is zero it acts
06:10:16 <Sgeo> alise was able to successfully contact me.
06:10:17 <alise> like v, and if non-zero it acts like ^. | is not available in Unefunge.
06:10:19 <alise> The m "High-Low If" (think middle) instruction pops a value off the stack; if it is zero it acts like l, and if non-zero it acts like h. m is not available in Unefunge or Befunge.
06:10:22 <Sgeo> And implied that this is deliberate.
06:10:22 <alise> The w "Compare" instruction pops a value b off the stack, then pops a value a, then compares them. (a is called a because it was the first of the two values to be pushed onto the stack.) If the a is smaller, w acts like [, and turns left. If the a is greater, w acts like ], and turns right. If a and b are equal, w does not affect the IP's delta. This instruction is not available in Befunge-93, nor Unefunge.
06:10:25 <Quadrescence> cpressey: I wanted to offer typesetting it for you
06:10:27 <alise> Data: Cell Crunching
06:10:31 <alise> Instructions 0 "Push Zero" through 9 "Push Niner" push the values zero through nine onto the stack, respectively. In Funge-98, a through f also push 10 through 15 respectively.
06:10:34 <alise> The + "Add" instruction pops two cells from the stack, adds them using integer addition, and pushes the result back onto the stack.
06:10:37 <alise> The * "Multiply" instruction pops two cells from the stack, multiplies them using integer multiplication, and pushes the result back onto the stack. In this way numbers larger than 9 (or 15) can be pushed onto the stack.
06:10:40 <alise> For example, to push the value 123 onto the stack, one might write
06:10:44 <Sgeo> I hope never to have to violate your trust again.
06:10:48 <alise> Funge also offers the following arithmetic instructions:
06:10:50 <alise> the - "Subtract" instruction, which pops two values, subtracts the first from the second using integer subtraction, and pushes the result;
06:10:53 <alise> the / "Divide" instruction, which pops two values, divides the second by the first using integer division, and pushes the result (note that division by zero produces a result of zero in Funge-98, but Befunge-93 instead is supposed to ask the user what they want the result of the division to be); and
06:10:55 <cpressey> Quadrescence: hm, typesetting.... hm. no
06:10:57 <alise> the % "Remainder" instruction, which pops two values, divides the second by the first using integer division, and pushes the remainder, of those. Remainder by zero is subject to the same rules as division by zero, but if either argument is negative, the result is implementation-defined.
06:11:03 <alise> The instruction " "Toggle Stringmode" toggles a special mode of the Funge interpreter called stringmode. In stringmode, every cell encountered by the IP (except " and in Funge-98, space) is not interpreted as an instruction, but rather as a Funge character, and is pushed onto the stack. A subsequent " toggles stringmode once more, turning it off.
06:11:08 <alise> In Funge-98 stringmode, spaces are treated "SGML-style"; that is, when any contiguous series of spaces is processed, it only takes one tick and pushes one space onto the stack. This introduces a small backward-incompatibility with Befunge-93; programs that have multiple spaces and/or wrap while in stringmode will have to be changed to work the same under Funge-98.
06:11:11 <cpressey> THIS IS THE BEST TYPESETTING OF THIS SPEC, EVER
06:11:13 <alise> Befunge-93Befunge-98
06:11:15 <alise> "hello world" "hello world"
06:11:17 <alise> "hello world" "hello "::"world"
06:11:18 <Sgeo> Or, maybe e messaged me at a different time
06:11:19 <alise> There is also a ' "Fetch Character" instruction in Funge-98. This pushes the Funge character value of the next encountered cell (position + delta) onto the stack, then adds the delta to the position (like #), skipping over the character (in no ticks). For example, the following two snippets perform the same function, printing a Q:
06:11:24 <Sgeo> In the middle somewhere
06:11:27 <alise> s "Store Character" is the mirror image of the ' instruction: this instead pops a value off the stack and writes it into (position + delta).
06:11:29 <Sgeo> And thus can't actually respond
06:11:29 <Quadrescence> cpressey: well I am not offering it, I just was going to if you answered my question earlier with "yes"
06:11:30 <alise> Some instructions expect a Funge string on the stack as one of their arguments. The standard format for these strings is called 0"gnirts" - that is, a null-terminated string with the start of the string at the top of the stack and the null termination at the bottom.
06:11:36 <alise> Stack Manipulation
06:11:38 <alise> The $ "Pop" instruction pops a cell off the stack and discards it.
06:11:40 <alise> The : "Duplicate" instruction pops a cell off the stack, then pushes it back onto the stack twice, duplicating it.
06:11:43 <alise> The \ "Swap" instruction pops two cells off the stack, then pushes the first cell back on, then the second cell, in effect swapping the top two cells on the stack.
06:11:46 <alise> The n "Clear Stack" instruction (not available in Befunge-93) completely wipes the stack (popping and discarding elements until it is empty.)
06:11:49 <alise> Stack Stack Manipulation
06:11:51 <alise> The stack stack transparently overlays the stack - that is to say, the top stack of Funge-98's stack stack is treated the same as Befunge-93's sole stack. The Funge programmer will never notice the difference unless they use the {, }, or u instructions of Funge-98.
06:11:55 <alise> When working with different stacks on the stack stack, though, it's useful to give two of them names: the top of stack stack or TOSS, which indicates the topmost stack on the stack stack, which works to emulate the sole stack of Befunge-93; and the second on stack stack or SOSS, which is the stack directly under the TOSS.
06:11:59 <alise> The { "Begin Block" instruction pops a cell it calls n, then pushes a new stack on the top of the stack stack, transfers n elements from the SOSS to the TOSS, then pushes the storage offset as a vector onto the SOSS, then sets the new storage offset to the location to be executed next by the IP (storage offset <- position + delta). It copies these elements as a block, so order is preserved.
06:12:04 <alise> If the SOSS contains k elements, where k is less than n, the k elements are transferred as the top k elements and the remaining bottom (n-k) elements are filled in with zero-value cells.
06:12:07 <alise> If n is zero, no elements are transferred.
06:12:09 <alise> If n is negative, |n| zeroes are pushed onto the SOSS.
06:12:11 <alise> The corresponding } "End Block" instruction pops a cell off the stack that it calls n, then pops a vector off the SOSS which it assigns to the storage offset, then transfers n elements (as a block) from the TOSS to the SOSS, then pops the top stack off the stack stack.
06:12:15 <alise> The transfer of elements for } "End Block" is in all respects similar to the transfer of elements for { "Begin Block", except for the direction in which elements are transferred. "Transfer" is used here in the sense of "move," not "copy": the original cells are removed.
06:12:19 <alise> If n is zero, no elements are transferred.
06:12:21 <alise> If n is negative, |n| cells are popped off of the (original) SOSS.
06:12:23 <alise> { makes the current TOSS the new SOSS. } makes the current SOSS the new TOSS.
06:12:25 <alise> { may act like r if no more memory is available for another stack. } acts like r if a stack-stack underflow would otherwise occur (i.e. when there is only one stack on the stack-stack.)
06:12:28 <alise> The practical use of these instructions is to "insulate" and "localize" procedures or other blocks of Funge code.
06:12:31 <alise> The u "Stack under Stack" instruction pops a count and transfers that many cells from the SOSS to the TOSS. It transfers these cells in a pop-push loop. In other words, the order is not preserved during transfer, it is reversed.
06:12:35 <alise> If there is no SOSS (the TOSS is the only stack), u should act like r.
06:12:37 <alise> If count is negative, |count| cells are transferred (similarly in a pop-push loop) from the TOSS to the SOSS.
06:12:40 <alise> If count is zero, nothing happens.
06:12:42 <alise> Media: Communications and Storage
06:12:44 <alise> Funge-Space Storage
06:12:46 <alise> The g "Get" and p "Put" instructions are used to store and retrieve data and code in Funge-Space.
06:12:48 <alise> In Befunge-93, g pops a vector (that is, it pops a y value, then an x value,) and pushes the value (character) in the Befunge-Space cell at (x, y) onto the stack. p pops a vector, then it pops a value, then it places that value in the Funge-Space cell at (x, y).
06:12:52 <alise> In Funge-98, each IP has an additional vector property called the storage offset. Initially this vector is the set to the origin. As such, it works to emulate Befunge-93. The arguments to g and p are the same, but instead of pointing to absolute locations in Funge-Space, they reference a cell relative to the storage offset.
06:12:56 <alise> Standard Input/Output
06:12:58 <alise> The . "Output Decimal" and , "Output Character" instructions provide numeric and Funge character/control output, respectively; they pop a cell off the stack and send it in numeric or Funge character format to the standard output, which is usually displayed by the interpreter in an interactive user terminal.
06:13:02 <alise> Outputting character number 10 will result in a new line being displayed on the standard output.
06:13:04 <alise> Numeric output is formatted as a decimal integer followed by a space.
06:13:06 <alise> These instructions will act as r does, should the standard output fail for any reason.
06:13:08 <alise> The & "Input Decimal" and ~ "Input Character" instructions provide numeric and Funge character/control input, respectively. They each suspend the program and wait for the user to enter a value in numeric or Funge character format to the standard input, which is usually displayed with the standard output. They then push this value on the stack.
06:13:12 <cpressey> Quadrescence: Ever read McLuhan?
06:13:12 <alise> An input of character number 10 indicates that the user pressed the 'Enter' key, or the equivalent key on their keyboard.
06:13:15 <alise> Decimal input reads and discards characters until it encounters decimal digit characters, at which point it reads a decimal number from those digits, up until (but not including) the point at which input characters stop being digits, or the point where the next digit would cause a cell overflow, whichever comes first.
06:13:19 <alise> Although the standard input and output are generally displayed in some sort of interactive user terminal, they needn't be; many operating systems support redirection. In the case of an end-of-file or other file error condition, the & and ~ both act like r.
06:13:25 <alise> File I/O is done with the i "Input File" and o "Output File" instructions, which are only available in Funge-98.
06:13:28 <alise> i pops a null-terminated 0"gnirts" string for the filename, followed by a flags cell, then a vector Va telling it where to operate. If the file can be opened for reading, it is inserted into Funge-Space at Va, and immediately closed. Two vectors are then pushed onto the stack
06:13:32 <alise> , Va and Vb, suitable arguments to a corresponding o instruction. If the file open failed, the instruction acts like r.
06:13:35 <alise> i is in all respects similar to the procedure used to load the main Funge source code file, except it may specify any file, not necessarily Funge source code, and at any location, not necessarily the origin.
06:13:38 <alise> Also, if the least significant bit of the flags cell is high, i treats the file as a binary file; that is, EOL and FF sequences are stored in Funge-space instead of causing the dimension counters to be reset and incremented.
06:13:41 <alise> o first pops a null-terminated 0"gnirts" string to use for a filename. Then it pops a flags cell. It then pops a vector Va indicating a least point (point with the smallest numerical coordinates of a region; also known as the upper-left corner, when used in the context of Befunge) in space, and another vector Vb describing the size of a rectangle (or a rectangular prism in Trefunge, etc). If the file named by the filename can be opened for writing, the cont
06:13:46 <alise> ents of the rectangle of Funge-Space from Va to Va+Vb are written into it, and it is immediately closed. If not, the instruction acts like r.
06:13:47 <Sgeo> This was all a ploy of alise to get Quadrescence to be quiet.
06:13:49 <alise> The first vectors popped by both of these instructions are considered relative to the storage offset. (The size vector Vb, of course, is relative to the least point Va.)
06:13:52 <alise> Note that in a greater-than-two-dimensional environment, specifying a more-than-two-dimensional size such as (3,3,3) is not guaranteed to produce sensical results.
06:13:55 <alise> Also, if the least significant bit of the flags cell is high, o treats the file as a linear text file; that is, any spaces before each EOL, and any EOLs before the EOF, are not written out. The resulting text file is identical in appearance and takes up less storage space.
06:14:00 <Sgeo> Again, alise, I'm really sorry.
06:14:01 <alise> The = "Execute" instruction pops a string off the stack, and attempts to execute it. How it executes it is implementation dependant. However, an implementation may support one of several standardized ways of interpreting the string, and which routine it uses can be determined by querying y. Typically methods include treating it as a C system() call would, or on a platform such as MacOS, for example, treating the string as AppleScript would be in order.
06:14:06 <alise> After execution, a failure value is pushed onto the stack. If this value is zero, everything went as expected. If the value is non-zero, it may be the return-code of the program that was executed; at any rate it means that the attempt to execute the program, or the program itself, did not succeed.
06:14:10 <alise> System Information Retrieval
06:14:12 <alise> The y "Get SysInfo" instruction, only available in Funge-98, pops one value off the stack. If the value is zero or negative, y tells you far more than you ever really want to know about the underlying Funge interpreter, operating system, and computer (and is thus usually followed soon after by a n instruction).
06:14:18 <alise> Each cell of information retrieved by y, only applies to either the current IP, the current environment (that is, the interpreter of the current IP,) or the global environment (the environment of every IP in the same Funge-space, regardless of which interpreter it's running on.)
06:14:22 <alise> After an execution of y with a non-positive argument, the stack contains many more cells (listed from top to bottom:)
06:14:25 <alise> 1 cell containing flags (env).
06:14:27 <alise> Least Significant Bit 0 (0x01): high if t is implemented. (is this Concurrent Funge-98?)
06:14:29 <alise> Bit 1 (0x02): high if i is implemented.
06:14:31 <alise> Bit 2 (0x04): high if o is implemented.
06:14:33 <alise> Bit 3 (0x08): high if = is implemented.
06:14:35 <alise> Most Significant Bit 4 (0x10): high if unbuffered standard I/O (like getch()) is in effect, low if the usual buffered variety (like scanf("%c")) is being used.
06:14:38 <alise> Further more significant bits: undefined, should all be low in Funge-98
06:14:40 <alise> 1 cell containing the number of bytes per cell (global env).
06:14:42 <alise> aka cell size. Typically 4, could also be 2, 8, really really large, infinity, etc.
06:14:44 <alise> 1 cell containing the implementation's handprint (env).
06:14:46 <alise> 1 cell containing the implementation's version number (env).
06:14:48 <alise> If the version number contains points, they're stripped. v2.01 == 201, v1.03.05 = 10305, v1.5g = 1507. Don't use non-numbers in the version number to indicate 'personalizations' - change the handprint instead.
06:14:51 <alise> 1 cell containing an ID code for the Operating Paradigm (global env)
06:14:55 <alise> 1 = Equivalent to C-language system() call behaviour
06:14:59 <alise> 2 = Equivalent to interpretation by a specific shell or program
06:15:01 <alise> This shell or program is specified by the interpreter but should ideally be customizable by the interpreter-user, if applicable. Befunge programs that run under this paradigm should document what program they expect to interpret the string passed to =.
06:15:05 <alise> 3 = Equivalent to interpretation by the same shell as started this Funge interpreter, if applicable
06:15:07 <alise> If the interpreter supports this paradigm, then in this manner, the user executing a Befunge source can easily choose which shell to use for = instructions.
06:15:10 <alise> This value is included so the program can have a reasonable idea of what = will do. The values shown here are only the most basic set available at the time of publication. See the Registry for any late-breaking headway into further Operating Paradigms.
06:15:14 <alise> 1 cell containing a path seperator character (global env)
06:15:16 <alise> This is what path seperators for i and o filenames should look like.
06:15:18 <alise> 1 cell containing the number of scalars per vector (global env)
06:15:20 <alise> aka number of dimensions. 2 for Befunge, 1 for Unefunge, 3 for Trefunge.
06:15:22 <alise> 1 cell containing a unique ID for the current IP (ip)
06:15:24 <alise> Only significant for Concurrent Funge. This ID differentiates this IP from all others currently in the IP list.
06:15:27 <alise> 1 cell containing a unique team number for the current IP (ip)
06:15:27 <cpressey> < alise> aka cell size. Typically 4, could also be 2, 8, really really large, infinity, etc. <-- LOVE THAT PART
06:15:29 <alise> Only significant for NetFunge, BeGlad, and the like.
06:15:31 <alise> 1 vector containing the Funge-Space position of the current IP (ip)
06:15:33 <alise> 1 vector containing the Funge-Space delta of the current IP (ip)
06:15:35 <alise> 1 vector containing the Funge-Space storage offset of the current IP (ip)
06:15:37 <alise> 1 vector containing the least point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the origin (env)
06:15:39 <alise> 1 vector containing the greatest point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the least point (env)
06:15:41 <alise> These two vectors are useful to give to the o instruction to output the entire program source as a text file.
06:15:44 <alise> 1 cell containing current ((year - 1900) * 256 * 256) + (month * 256) + (day of month) (env)
06:15:46 <alise> 1 cell containing current (hour * 256 * 256) + (minute * 256) + (second) (env)
06:15:48 <alise> 1 cell containing the total number of stacks currently in use by the IP (size of stack stack) (ip)
06:15:50 <alise> size-of-stack-stack cells containing size of each stack, listed from TOSS to BOSS (ip)
06:15:52 <alise> Stack sizes are pushed as if they were measured before y began pushing elements onto the stack.
06:15:54 <alise> a series of sequences of characters (strings), each terminated by a null, the series terminated by an additional double null, containing the command-line arguments. (env)
06:15:57 <alise> This means any isolated argument can be a null string, but no two consecutive arguments may be null strings - a rather contrived scenario, null string arguments being rare in themselves.
06:16:00 <alise> The first string is the name of the Funge source program being run.
06:16:02 <alise> a series of strings, each terminated by a null, the series terminated by an additional null, containing the environment variables. (env)
06:16:05 <alise> The format for each variable setting is NAME=VALUE.
06:16:07 <alise> If y is given a positive argument, all these cells are pushed onto the stack as if the argument was non-positive. However, y then goes on to copy the argumentth stack cell (counting from the top) into a temporary location, subsequently removing all the cells it pushed onto the stack. It then pushes the temporary cell onto the stack. For example, 3y will act as if only the handprint was pushed onto the stack.
06:16:12 <alise> An interesting side-effect of this behaviour is that if y is given an argument that exceeds the number of cells it pushes onto the stack, it can act as a 'pick' instruction on data that was on the stack before y was even executed.
06:16:19 <alise> Scale: Extension and Customization
06:16:21 <alise> Funge-98 is totally customizable and scalable in terms of functionality, and non-trivial programs can now be written portably in it without any sort of directives. The fingerprint mechanism allows for the definition of a virtually unlimited number of libraries in the form of fingerprinted extensions. The handprint mechanism allows a program to identify exactly what interpreter it's running on.
06:16:24 <cpressey> cheater99: more than that I think, but the whole appendix is yet to come
06:16:28 <alise> A handprint is a bitstring which uniquely identifies a particular implementation (interpreter, compiler, etc.) of Funge-98.
06:16:31 <alise> These should really only be used by Funge-98 programs which know about bugs in a known interpreter, and want to work around them when their portable source is run on that interpreter. (Features, on the other hand, should be fingerprints: if everything is properly implemented, the current handprint should be irrelevant. Fingerprints should always be used in preference to handprints when making a design decision - handprints are a fallback for the less-than-i
06:16:38 <alise> Handprints generally stay they same between revisions of an interpreter. They are accompanied by a version number when retrieved from y.
06:16:41 <Sgeo> alise asked me a question, I wonder if I should repeat it.
06:16:43 <alise> Extension and customization of Funge-98 are accomplished through the so-called "fingerprint mechanism". No such mechanism exists for Befunge-93.
06:16:45 <Sgeo> I know my answer.
06:16:46 <alise> To be more precise, a fingerprint is a unique ID code which indicates a library of routines (a fingerprinted extension) to be assigned temporarily to what the instructions A to Z do. Multiple loaded fingerprints can overlap and overload, so even object-oriented-like inheritance is possible.
06:16:50 <Sgeo> Maybe if everyone else agreed...
06:16:50 <alise> Generally speaking, these new semantics and instructions are only available to and only apply to the IP which loaded them. The fingerprint spec itself may make exceptions to this rule, but it must clearly specify what they are.
06:16:54 <alise> The semantics of any given extension are generally coded directly into the interpreter. There is no reason, however, they may not be made available in a dynamically-loadable form; but there is no convenient, standard format for such a form.
06:16:58 <alise> Whether the semantics are dynamically loaded from a disk file containing some form of executable code, or hard-wired into the Funge interpreter, is really a moot point from the Funge programmer's perspective.
06:17:01 <alise> However, it is useful to explain at this point for the benefit of both Funge programmers and potential Funge extension writers, that there are two classes of fingerprinted extensions: those that interact with and change the behaviour of the underlying Funge Virtual Machine and/or are not re-entrant (feral extensions), and those which are self-contained and re-entrant (tame extensions).
06:17:04 <Sgeo> Although I doubt it
06:17:06 <alise> The main difference is that a feral extension cannot simply or easily be "dropped into" a Funge interpreter which is not aware of it. When specifying fingerprinted extensions for public use, please try to make them as tame as possible - although many times it is unavoidable to have a feral fingerprint in order to accomplish a certain semantic goal, such as program control of proprietary interpreter features.
06:17:10 <cpressey> Sgeo: I'm not sure alise's client is in any position to respond at this point
06:17:11 <alise> The ( "Load Semantics" instruction loads the semantics for a given fingerprint onto any or all of the instructions A to Z. ( pops a count. It then pops count cells. For each cell that it pops, it multiplies a temporary value (which is initially zero) by 256, and adds the cell value to it.
06:17:15 <alise> In this way, ( builds a fingerprint. This mechanism makes it simple to express large fingerprints like 0x452e472e in printable ASCII such as ".G.E"4( ... ), while not requiring the use of ASCII as the medium for all fingerprints.
06:17:19 <alise> ( then uses this fingerprint to locate and load a set of semantics for the instructions A to Z. If the Funge implementation cannot find the correct library for the given fingerprint, ( acts like r. If, however, the semantic library load is successful, the new fingerprint, then a 1, are pushed onto the stack (to be accepted by a subsequent ) instruction.)
06:17:20 <Sgeo> cpressey, e is responding via PM
06:17:24 <alise> The corresponding ) "Unload Semantics" instruction unloads the semantics for a given fingerprint from any or all of the instructions A to Z (even if that fingerprint had never been loaded before). It pops a count and builds a fingerprint in exactly the same way.
06:17:28 <alise> () in Funge are kind of like "use x ... no x" in Perl. The interpreter-writer or interpreter-customiz
06:17:30 <alise> er is allowed to make fingerprints do anything they like, and they may implement fingerprints however they like, but they have to follow some general rules as a 'contract' between the fingerprint and the fingerprint user.
06:17:33 <alise> A fingerprint should not affect the semantics of any instructions besides A to Z, except under exceptional circumstances which must be clearly documented in the fingerprint's spec.
06:17:36 <alise> When loaded, a fingerprint which implements A and B semantics should act something like:
06:17:38 <alise> save(A); bind(A, myAsemantic()); save(B); bind(B, myBsemantic());
06:17:40 <alise> When unloaded, the same fingerprint should act something like
06:17:42 <alise> restore(B); restore(A);
06:17:44 <alise> In this sense, 'bind' means to change what the execution of an instruction does in the current Funge-98 program.
06:17:47 <alise> 'save' means to save (push onto a stack) the semantics of an instruction for later use.
06:17:49 <alise> 'restore' means to recall (pop from a stack) the semantics of an instruction from the last saved version.
06:17:51 <alise> This allows 'overloading' fingerprints. Say three fingerprints are implemented on your interpreter,
06:17:53 <alise> E.G. which implements D as 'Destroy' and R as 'Restore'
06:17:55 <alise> TEST which implements S as 'Send', R as 'Receive', and E as 'Encrypt'
06:17:57 <alise> WORK which implements S as 'Slice', D as 'Dice', P as 'Puree'
06:17:59 <alise> With these, the Funge programmer ought to be able to make code like:
06:18:01 <alise> ".G.E"4( ... "TSET"4( ... "KROW"4( ... S ... ) ... ) ... )
06:18:03 <alise> Here, the S instruction indicates the 'Slice' instruction in the WORK fingerprint, not 'Send' in TEST. But if it was written as:
06:18:06 <alise> "KROW"4( ... "TSET"4( ... ".G.E"4( ... S ... ) ... ) ... )
06:18:08 <alise> The S would indicate 'Send' from TEST, since there is no S in E.G., and a D instruction in the same location would indicate 'Destroy' in E.G., but P would be a 'Puree' from WORK, because it's not defined in either TEST or E.G.
06:18:12 <alise> Funge Central Registry
06:18:14 <alise> The Funge Central Registry is an online database located at http://www.cats-eye.com/funge/registry/. Before developing and releasing your own Funge-98 implementation or extension, please register all applicable handprints and fingerprints you will require here.
06:18:18 <alise> This system is in place both to reduce conflicts between fingerprints and handprints world-wide, ensuring their uniqueness, and to provide a quick reference to all known extant handprints and fingerprints.
06:18:21 <alise> There really are no standard libraries in Befunge. A Funge-98 interpreter need not implement any fingerprints whatsoever. Funge-98 "standard" libraries are no more than "officially sanctioned" extensions, catalogued in the Registry by their fingerprints. Since extensions are forever accumulating, see the registry for a list of "standard" fingerprints.
06:18:28 <alise> Instruction Quick Reference
06:18:28 <cpressey> cheater99: we're about 75% or 80% through
06:18:30 <alise> 98 Funge-98 only, not in Befunge-93.
06:18:32 <alise> 2D Minimum 2 dimensions (not in Unefunge).
06:18:34 <alise> 3D Minimum 3 dimensions (not in Unefunge or Befunge).
06:18:36 <alise> c Concurrent Funge. Check y to see if these instructions are implemented.
06:18:38 <alise> f Filesystem Funge. Check y to see if these instructions are implemented.
06:18:40 <alise> DecimalASCIIInstructionStack BeforeStack AfterOther Effects
06:18:44 <alise> 32spaceSpace not normally executed
06:18:46 <alise> 33!Logical NotbNOT b
06:18:48 <alise> 34"Toggle Stringmode stringmode <- NOT stringmode
06:18:50 <alise> 35#Trampoline pos <- pos + delta
06:18:54 <alise> 37%Remaindera ba REM b
06:18:56 <alise> 38&Input Integer aa = readint()
06:18:58 <alise> 39'Fetch Character/98 cpos <- pos + delta
06:19:00 <alise> 40(Load Semantics/98en..e1 nf 1overloads A-Z
06:19:02 <alise> 41)Unload Semantics/98en..e1 n unloads last A-Z
06:19:04 <alise> 42*Multiplya ba * b
06:19:08 <alise> 44,Output Characterc writechar(c)
06:19:10 <alise> 45-Subtracta ba - b
06:19:12 <alise> 46.Output Integera writeint(a)
06:19:38 <alise> 59;Jump Over/98 nothing executed until next semicolon
06:19:40 <alise> 60<Go West delta <- (-1,0)
06:19:42 <alise> 61=Execute/98/fSTRrr = system-execute(STR)
06:19:44 <alise> 62>Go East delta <- (1,0)
06:19:46 <alise> 63?Go Away delta <- (1,0)?(-1,0)?(0,1)?(0,-1)
06:19:50 <alise> 65-90A-Z Fingerprint-Defined/98
06:19:52 <alise> 91[Turn Left/98/2D delta <- rot(-90, delta)
06:19:56 <alise> 93]Turn Right/98/2D delta <- rot(90, delta)
06:19:58 <alise> 94^Go North/2D delta <- (0,-1)
06:20:00 <alise> 95_East-West If b delta <- if (b) (-1,0) else (1,0)
06:20:02 <alise> 96`Greater Than a ba > beither 1 or 0
06:20:06 <alise> 98bPush Eleven/98 11
06:20:08 <alise> 99cPush Twelve/98 12
06:20:10 <alise> 100dPush Thirteen/98 13
06:20:12 <alise> 101ePush Fourteen/98 14
06:20:14 <alise> 102fPush Fifteen/98 15
06:20:16 <alise> 103gGetVavv = fetch-funge-space(offset+Va)
06:20:18 <alise> 104hGo High/98/3D delta <- (0,0,-1)
06:20:20 <alise> 105iInput File/98/fVa f STRVa Vbinputs file
06:20:22 <alise> 106jJump Forward/98s pos <- pos + delta * s
06:20:24 <alise> 107kIterate/98n execute next instruction now, n times
06:20:26 <alise> 108lGo Low/98/3D delta <- (0,0,1)
06:20:28 <alise> 109mHigh-Low If/98/3Db delta <- if (b) (0,0,-1) else (0,0,1)
06:20:30 <alise> 110nClear Stack/98en..e1
06:20:32 <alise> 111oOutput File/98/fVa Vb f STR outputs file
06:20:34 <alise> 112pPutv Va store-funge-space(offset+Va,v)
06:20:36 <alise> 113qQuit/98r immediate exit, returncode = r
06:20:38 <alise> 114rReflect/98 delta <- delta * -1
06:20:40 <alise> 115sStore Character/98c store-funge-space(position+delta,v)
06:20:42 <alise> 116tSplit/98/c Split IP
06:20:44 <alise> 117uStack Under Stack/98n(en..e1)
06:20:46 <alise> 118vGo South/2D delta <- (0,1)
06:20:48 <alise> 119wCompare/98/2Da b if (a>b) ']' elsif (a<b) '[' else 'z'
06:20:50 <alise> 120xAbsolute Delta/98Va delta <- Va
06:20:52 <alise> 121yGet SysInfo/98cen(..e1)
06:20:54 <alise> 122zNo Operation/98
06:20:56 <alise> 123{Begin Block/98en..e1 n(en..e1) offset <- pos + delta, etc
06:20:58 <alise> 124|North-South If/2Db delta <- if (b) (0,-1) else (0,1)
06:21:00 <alise> 125}End Block/98en..e1 n(en..e1) offset <- SOSS Va, etc
06:21:02 <alise> 126~Input Character cc = readchar()
06:21:04 <alise> Concurrent Funge-98
06:21:06 <alise> Befunge-93 does not allow for multithreaded execution. However, Concurrent Funge-98, a superset of Funge-98, defines a list of any number of concurrently running instruction pointers called the IP list. In Concurrent Funge, IP's are sometimes called threads and each has its own location, delta, and stack.
06:21:10 <alise> You can also think of a Concurrent Funge-98 interpreter as having an internal and imaginary clock which produces ticks sequentially. Each tick, the IP list is processed: instructions encountered by each IP are dealt with in the sequence the IPs appear on the list, and each IP then moves as specified by its delta.
06:21:14 <alise> The list is always processed repetitively, sequentially, and in the same direction, and when IP's are deleted they fall out and the next one which would normally execute anyway actually executes.
06:21:17 <alise> Creating additional IP's is done with the t "Split" instruction, available in Concurrent Funge-98 only. It causes the current IP to be duplicated, and this duplicate is added to the IP list such that it is executed for the first time before the parent IP is next executed.
06:21:21 <alise> When a child IP is borne unto Funge-Space thus, its location, storage offset, and stack are all copied verbatim from the parent IP's. The child IP's delta is reversed (a la r) from its parent's, though.
06:21:24 <alise> The @ "Stop" instruction kills the current IP. If the current IP is the only active IP in the IP list, the program ends. If it was not the last in the IP list, there would then be a gap in the list: in this case the top part of the list "shifts down" and the next thread in the list is executed.
06:21:30 <alise> Lahey-Space is a mathematical model of the space used in Funge-98.
06:21:32 <alise> The requirements for a line in Lahey-space are the following: Starting from the origin, no matter what direction you head, you eventually reach the origin. If you go the other way you reach the origin from the other direction.
06:21:36 <alise> We surmise that if you head out on a Lahey-line, you would eventually return along the same Lahey-line, heading in the same direction, but coming from the other direction. This would mean you would eventually repeat your path, and (in Funge terms) have consistant wrapping through unlimited space.
06:21:40 <alise> Now, imagine a sphere of radius one centered one unit above the origin. Imagine a plane placed two units above the origin, i.e. resting on top of the sphere.
06:21:40 <cpressey> YES, DON'T FORGET LAHEY-SPACE!
06:21:43 <alise> One thing you might notice is that when you draw a straight line from the origin to any point on the plane, you intersect the sphere exactly twice, once at the origin, once in a unique location. In this manner, you can map the plane uniquely onto the sphere.
06:21:47 <alise> Now, each normal line from a point A on the plane to a point B on the plane can be transformed into a Lahey-line, which in our model is represented as an arc of the sphere containing both point A' on the sphere and point B' on the sphere. This arc can then be extended into a full circle, going 'around' the sphere to wrap.
06:21:53 <alise> As mentioned, Funge is a family of programming languages, and Befunge has many relatives and descendants. This document only covers Cartesian Funges. Other Funges, such as Honefunges (hex-net topology) and Kleinefunges (Klein-bottles) are certainly possible.
06:21:57 <alise> However, Advanced Funges may not find either torodial space or Lahey-space sufficient for complex topologies, so this spec provides a language for defining wrapping behaviour in a mathematical way.
06:22:00 <alise> We can define an a wrapping function W() along the lines of:
06:22:02 <alise> W(x,y) = (x<0 -> x:=79, x>79 -> x:=0, y<0 -> y:=24, y>24 -> y:=0)
06:22:04 <alise> for Befunge-93. Complex topologies can define their own wrapping functions. If these functions are strictly and clearly specified in the documentation of the Advanced Funge in question, it will save a lot of confusion to users, and is highly recommended.
06:22:08 <alise> Copyunder (u)1998 Cat's-Eye Technologies. See http://www.cats-eye.com/license/ for license information.
06:23:05 <alise> My trust is so broken that my heart will never be whole again.
06:24:07 <alise> Thank you for participating in the group reading and commentary session of Chris Pressey's "Funge-98 Final Specification".
06:24:10 <alise> Join us again next week, when we will be reciting the entire INTERCAL-72 manual.
06:24:14 <alise> Cool, messages arriving out of order.
06:24:39 <Sgeo> Some messages from alise arrived during the reading
06:24:48 <Sgeo> I still can't figure it out
06:26:13 <alise> Now we will be playing the entire text of Finnegans Wake.
06:32:43 * Sgeo should attempt to implement some esolang in Factor
06:32:46 <Sgeo> To get some practice
06:34:07 <alise> Suggestions for notable works of documentation or literature that could be read as part of a future session are greatly appreciated. Comments on a postcard. Do not use while pregnant. All rights reversed.
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06:34:27 <cpressey> Sgeo: it would be a good idea. i can say from experience that underload is pretty easy.
06:35:02 <Sgeo> Factor comes with some parsing vocabulary
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06:47:18 <cpressey> cheater99: you are a distinctly creepy individual
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07:01:39 <cpressey> morning, ais523. in case you care, i just wrote an Underload interpreter in C, and compiled it under AmigaOS 1.3.
07:02:05 <ais523> I do care; writing it in C is not the interesting part, compiling it under AmigaOS is
07:05:01 <ais523> meanwhile, Esolang now has two FALSE fans called Ian
07:05:05 <cpressey> agreed. the code ( http://pastie.org/1151532 ) is quite amateurish, especially in its memory management (although I did attempt to do some "tail call optimization"). I couldn't use the anagolf C implemementation, because DICE C (for AmigaOS) isn't... quite that smart.
07:05:09 <ais523> which is confusing when trying to review recent changes
07:05:27 <ais523> cpressey: the anagolf impl crashes on the vast majority of Underload programs
07:05:35 <ais523> because it doesn't actually allocate memory, it just uses it and hopes it's free
07:05:44 <ais523> presumably, that's OK for golfing, but not for regular programming
07:05:59 <cpressey> boggling at how it could possibly work correctly, rather.
07:06:07 <ais523> well, there's always a chance...
07:06:50 <ais523> I have an Underload in C interp aiming for maximum efficiency sitting on my hard drive atm; I can't remember whether I've shown it to anyone or not
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11:41:04 <Vorpal> <Quadrescence> btw I genuinely think AnMaster is badass like cpressey is <-- um... thanks I guess
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11:42:46 <ais523> well, perhaps you should write it down, you seem to keep forgetting
11:42:57 <ais523> why do you care anyway?
11:47:05 <Phantom_Hoover> If I can't get the hat in Edinburgh, you can get it when it goes through England!
11:53:13 <ais523> I don't really see what I have to do with hat theft...
12:09:49 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, do you have a ready supply of depleted Eucharist?
12:10:07 <ais523> I doubt it, although I don't understand the question
12:11:10 <Phantom_Hoover> It's just Eucharist that has decayed from pure god-flesh to various, more stable dough.
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13:00:57 <ais523> ooh, SCO just appealed. Again.
13:01:23 <ais523> they had two appeals left and used one (they get more if any of the appeals actually go their way...)
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13:44:48 <ais523> it doesn't seem obviously impossible
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14:05:30 <fizzie> You would at least need to have a smaller domain for the function than R. I mean, if you want the function to be differentiable everywhere, it needs to be continuous; and a continuous function is invertible only if it's strictly monotonous; the derivative of a monotonous function is either >0 or <0 everywhere, whereas the inverse function would need to give negative values at least somewhere (assuming R was the domain).
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14:12:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> Incidentally, does anyone know why LyX refuses to work with noweb for me?
14:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> It says something about literate-article.layout being missing, but I have no idea what that is.
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14:46:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, should work for R+ or similar though?
14:47:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, as for the lyx issue. Is it supposed to work with noweb? As in, has anyone else tried and got it to work?
14:47:49 <Vorpal> $ locate literate-article.layout
14:47:49 <Vorpal> /usr/share/lyx/layouts/literate-article.layout
14:48:03 <Vorpal> exists on both arch and ubuntu for me
14:48:47 <Vorpal> no clue. How are you using it?
14:49:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, it actually says that literate-article is not usable.
14:50:27 <Vorpal> well, maybe you are missing some package it needs?
14:52:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, rerun the system check thingy?
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14:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Disturbingly, though I have the noweb package installed, locate noweb only shows one of LyX's files.
14:54:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, lyx caches what packages are available on the system.
14:54:41 <Vorpal> Thus if you change that set you need to run that option
14:55:51 <Vorpal> then you probably forgot to run the reconfigure option after you installed noweb (assuming you installed lyx before noweb)
14:56:11 <Vorpal> hm why does noweb depend on iconx?
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15:16:39 <alise> gah, ais523 was here but left
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15:18:00 <alise> 06:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Disturbingly, though I have the noweb package installed, locate noweb only shows one of LyX's files.
15:18:06 <alise> that's just locate's cached db
15:18:13 <alise> it should appear shortly
15:35:26 <alise> Gregor: sidux totally sucks.
15:44:44 <alise> It sucks SO MUCH and you should totally defend it by listing everything good about it.
15:44:51 <alise> Because it SUCKS and only AWFUL PEOPLE use it.
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16:37:07 <alise> "Native ZFS for Linux"
16:37:10 <alise> http://github.com/behlendorf/zfs/wiki
16:37:23 <alise> AWESOME OR AWESOME
16:38:12 <alise> http://github.com/behlendorf/zfs/wiki/faq
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16:47:54 <alise> [ehird@dinky Downloads]$ sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb
16:47:59 <alise> a scary command to run
16:48:45 <ais523> also, I'd make sure I was certain I knew what sdb was connected to before I ran that!
16:48:56 <alise> a USB stick! Unless I'm horribly wrong!
16:49:04 <alise> In which case, something else!
16:49:07 <alise> Possibly important!
16:49:32 <ais523> you could try dmesg immediately after plugging it in
16:49:37 <ais523> hmm, a good way to check would be to reformat it
16:49:51 <ais523> mke2fs goes completely crazy if you try to reformat a mounted filesystem
16:50:17 <alise> hmm, it's actually mounted
16:50:24 <alise> this will be fun, then
16:50:30 <alise> the dd is... not doing anything
16:50:39 <ais523> hmm, use "mount" to check what filesystems are mounted where
16:50:40 <alise> ais523: oh, I know it's the USB stick; unetbootin just told me that it has files already on it
16:50:46 <alise> and named it ARCH(date)
16:50:50 <alise> meaning it's the USB stick with Arch Linux on it
16:51:00 <alise> 850240000 bytes (850 MB) copied, 225.212 s, 3.8 MB/s
16:51:04 <ais523> surely that dd should have a bs= set?
16:51:14 <ais523> if you don't, it tries to copy a byte at a time IIRC
16:51:24 <alise> is there any downside to doing bs=sizeofstick count=1?
16:51:29 <alise> i guess maybe it should be a power of two
16:51:46 <ais523> it should be the natural block size of the device for best performance
16:51:52 <alise> i have no idea what that is
16:51:56 <ais523> but I don't know what it is for a typical USB controller
16:52:16 <alise> [ehird@dinky Downloads]$ sudo dd bs=16384 if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb
16:52:18 <alise> That should be fine.
16:53:16 <alise> It's just 4 gigs, sheesh.
16:53:33 <ais523> checking online suggests that for USB drives, it's memory management that's the dd bottleneck rather than the USB controller
16:53:52 <ais523> apparently Linux handles all block sizes equally, but Cygwin dd screws up some sizes quite badly (like 4k)
16:54:33 <ais523> Wikipedia says that the actual physical block size tends to be 64, 128, or 256 KiB
16:55:00 <ais523> or maybe as much as 512 KiB on newer NAND flashes
16:56:46 <alise> [ehird@dinky Downloads]$ sudo kill -9 7067
16:56:46 <alise> [ehird@dinky Downloads]$ sudo kill -9 7067
16:56:49 <alise> [ehird@dinky Downloads]$
16:57:17 <fizzie> Since it's sort of eso-related, maybe I could mention it here, too: submitted a sqrt(-garfield) strip that's -- in addition to a strip about Garfield taking up painting -- also a Piet program that prints out "Garfield".
16:57:52 <alise> fizzie: Totally kissing DMM's ass, though. How could he /not/ publish it?
16:58:11 <oklopol> in piet, the size of a colored area was somehow meaningful right?
16:58:18 <fizzie> I was thinking of starting the email with something like "there's this programming language called Piet, maybe you've heard of it?", but didn't.
16:58:19 <oklopol> like that it's not just a colored 2d brainfuck
16:58:23 <ais523> Piet is presumably quite easy to steganographically embed in other languages
16:58:26 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, for the "push" command.
16:58:28 <ais523> oklopol: yes, sometimes
16:58:53 <oklopol> but are two colors that differ just a bit completely different
16:58:55 <alise> ais523: So, I have been meaning to ask you: do you have the original Underload compiler anywhere? The one written in Scheme, with the latest prelude.c/postlude.c (was that the filename?) files.
16:59:07 <alise> It's on another machine here but I have no idea where and the machine is in a box.
16:59:07 <oklopol> was it so that just a few colors are meaningful
16:59:18 <oklopol> i should just open the page
16:59:25 <alise> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Piet
16:59:31 <alise> *http://esolangs.org/wiki/Piet
16:59:31 <ais523> alise: I think so, let me check
16:59:34 <fizzie> oklopol: It has a palette of 18 colors, and the spec doesn't define what other colors should do.
17:00:04 <fizzie> (I don't know what implementations tend to do, maybe to map to nearest Piet color or something.)
17:00:38 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/867u has the "program" (you can barely call it that) in a textual form; it's basically "push everything, then a dup-if-print loop".
17:00:40 <alise> fizzie: most likely just cry
17:00:51 <alise> heh, do you have a piet compiler?
17:01:18 <fizzie> No, that was just for illustrative purposes. (At least I *think* I didn't write one.)
17:01:35 <ais523> alise: it seems I have two copies, one in a directory "underload-0", and the other in a directory "underload-olddardcs", which I assume is a typo
17:02:25 <alise> ais523: hmm, if you could upload both that would be appreciated
17:02:31 <alise> perhaps one is the older one before your improvements to the prelude
17:02:37 <fizzie> Also http://zem.fi/~fis/pietfield.png and http://zem.fi/~fis/pietfield-trace.png for the strip and npiet's trace pic (with 3x3-pixel codels).
17:03:10 <ais523> alise: checked the last-modified dates, they're a day apart
17:03:18 <alise> ais523: well, a lot can change in a day.
17:03:21 <fizzie> Maybe I should've made it print out "Stupid in Green" though. Oh well.
17:03:34 <alise> fizzie: nah, "Garfield" is better
17:03:44 <alise> "Stupid in Green" feels like repeating yourself
17:04:19 <alise> can dd output a status report every so often?
17:04:21 <alise> without me manually triggering it
17:05:06 <oklopol> fizzie: erm, do you just have the program between two panels? :P
17:05:09 <fizzie> No, but maybe you can put a bash "kill; sleep;" loop somewhere to trigger it every so often.
17:05:32 <fizzie> oklopol: The loopy part is there; the push(n) data is mostly in panels, though.
17:05:42 <ais523> alise: I just diffed them, the only difference is that one contains a function void invalid(void) which prints an error message and exits
17:06:06 <alise> ais523: which one contains it?
17:06:09 <alise> the old one or the new one?
17:06:11 <oklopol> i thought you made a new strip so that it'd be a piet program already.
17:06:29 <oklopol> (i thought maybe garfield painted the program :P)
17:06:41 <ais523> which makes sense, I suppose; if the /only/ difference is the existence of the function, it implies the function isn't called anywhere, at least if they both compile
17:06:44 <oklopol> "look jon, this here is me"
17:07:11 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh, I couldn't draw my way out of a wet paper bag, so that's just the http://garfield.nfshost.com/2003/10/21/ one.
17:07:49 <fizzie> Rest of the image was dumped to Piet palette without dithering, but there's nothing remotely orange-like in it, so I made Garfield himself be dithered.
17:11:29 <alise> ais523: is there no difference in any other file?
17:11:40 <alise> i wonder what the compiler spits out for a non-instruction
17:11:44 <ais523> no, in the three files that exist in common to the three directories
17:12:02 <alise> can I have a tar of the new one, then? :)
17:12:37 <ais523> hmm, the new one doesn't contain things like the Makefile
17:12:38 <oklopol> fizzie: so how then did you get the constants?
17:12:42 <ais523> oh well, I'm sure it's trivial to reconstruct
17:12:58 <oklopol> does it calculate the size of a connected area and mod 256
17:13:00 <alise> ais523: hmm, can you tar up the other one too? I can probably reconstruct it into one directory
17:13:03 <oklopol> because i guess it's easy then
17:13:14 <ais523> alise: the other one's got mixed with some of my own files
17:13:15 <oklopol> because the areas are huge
17:13:26 <alise> ais523: ah; just the Makefile, then?
17:13:54 <alise> thanks for this; it sure beats disk archaeology
17:13:58 <ais523> hmm, neither of them have a makefile it seems
17:14:18 <ais523> the old one seems to have a load of intermediate directories, and a few copies of Underload programs I was using to test
17:14:22 <alise> well, it /is/ a Scheme program.
17:14:33 <ais523> also, filebin.ca seems to be down atm
17:14:36 <alise> hmm, are you sure the compiler in the new one doesn't spit out invalid()?
17:14:44 <alise> if it does, then it won't function correctly on... invalid programs
17:14:45 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, the push() instruction pushes the size of the area it left from (ops are defined as the hue/lightness difference between two consecutive areas); in three cases I used existing huge background blobs, the rest are mostly single-pixel-high color bits outside the black panel border, modified a bit.
17:14:47 <ais523> yes, the word isn't anywere in the source
17:14:59 <alise> must be a relic of a previous version
17:15:08 <fizzie> oklopol: It does assume that out(char) outputs just the low 8 bits. I did look up what it would do if out(char) outputs a Unicode codepoint, though, just a sec.
17:15:10 <alise> I've forgotten how ugly the compiler is, so this should be fun :P
17:15:14 <ais523> strangely, the case statement that compiles commands doesn't have a default case at all
17:15:38 <fizzie> oklopol: It will print "G<TELEGU LETTER VOCALIC LL>rfi<TIFINAGH LETTER YAZZ>ld" if you run it in an interpreter that outputs Unicode values.
17:15:38 <alise> ais523: then it simply ignores invalid commands
17:15:41 <alise> an acceptable approach, I suppose
17:15:45 <ais523> presumably, you're relying on executing invalid commands being undefined behavior
17:16:06 <alise> Past me, the author is past me, I have no idea what the hell he was thinking.
17:16:25 <ais523> alise: filebin isn't loading; how else should I send it to you?
17:16:43 <ais523> given that it's three files and they're all ASCII text, I could just pastebin a shar or something
17:16:51 <ais523> actually, I like that method, it's nostalgic, I'll do that
17:16:54 <alise> a shar would be fine.
17:17:00 <alise> you could use another file upload service, but most of them are awful
17:17:19 <alise> and a significant portion of them probably require javascript
17:17:57 <fizzie> oklopol: If you have the fonts, that's "Gౡrfiⵥld".
17:18:44 <alise> I see the latter, but the former is [0C61].
17:19:55 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1938322
17:20:06 <ais523> incidentally, pastebin.ca seems to highlight parens inside comments, in shellscript
17:20:21 <ais523> hmm, TELEGU LETTER VOCALIC LL is quite pretty
17:20:22 <fizzie> alise: http://zem.fi/~fis/telegu-ll.png if you just *must* get to see it.
17:20:39 <ais523> you can copy-and-paste unicode characters into Wikipedia's search box to see what they are
17:20:49 <alise> ais523: how does THAT work?
17:21:01 <ais523> alise: even systems that can't render them can normally copy-and-paste them correctly
17:21:08 <ais523> and they all have redirects to the appropriate article
17:21:21 <alise> i was thinking of some image-based magic that the search box does
17:21:34 <alise> or perhaps an embedded full-Unicode font with @font-face used as a search box font
17:21:46 <ais523> that's like... assuming that Google does OCR on your search query to figure out what you're searching for
17:21:59 <alise> ais523: it's a sharbomb, right?
17:22:15 <alise> ais523: oh, I knew it was crazy; I just couldn't think what you meant
17:22:18 <ais523> it even says so in the header, IIRC
17:22:19 <alise> that's a great idea, though!
17:22:28 <alise> ais523: well, it lists the files, but...
17:22:39 <ais523> ...but doesn't list a directory to contain them
17:22:48 <alise> : command not foundd5sum
17:22:48 <alise> Note: not verifying md5sums. Consider installing GNU coreutils.
17:22:48 <alise> '938322: line 30: syntax error near unexpected token `do
17:22:48 <alise> '938322: line 30: `do
17:22:52 <alise> I guess by "sh" it means "bash".
17:23:00 <alise> Wait, my sh /is/ bash.
17:23:09 <alise> And even bash doesn't work.
17:23:25 <ais523> let me try extracting it
17:23:36 <alise> dunno why it says '938322; that ' should be a 1
17:23:41 <alise> ais523: dos line endings
17:23:51 <alise> ais523: probably pastebin's fault
17:24:01 <ais523> run it through dtou, then try again
17:24:09 <alise> dtou? is that /another/ tool for that?
17:24:31 <fizzie> There's so many tools I can never remember what's installed where; then I just "tr -d '\r'" everywhere.
17:24:37 <alise> in protest, I will attempt to use cpressey's tool to do it instead
17:25:06 <alise> Uhh, if I can find it.
17:25:24 <ais523> alise: it's the one DJGPP uses
17:25:42 <ais523> and that's the platform on which I tend to do the most line-ending conversions, so it sticks in my mind
17:25:48 <alise> meh, it appears to not be on catseye any more
17:25:58 <ais523> what lang was it written in?
17:27:03 <alise> ais523: hmm, do you know if the prelude.c has my algorithms or yours?
17:27:08 <alise> yours being the ones with better performance characteristics
17:28:29 <alise> woohoo underload.scm is ugly
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17:29:45 <ais523> ^bf ,[-------------[>+>[-]+<<-]>++++++++++++++>[<.>-],]!test1
17:30:00 <ais523> ^bf ,[-------------[>+>[-]+<<-]>+++++++++++++>[<.>-],]!test1
17:30:07 <ais523> pity that IRC doesn't let me embed literal character returns
17:30:15 <ais523> but I /think/ that's a working dtou script in Brainfuck
17:30:42 <ais523> (incidentally, this would be an awful anagolf puzzle, because anagolf ignores trailing whitespace differences)
17:31:03 <alise> ais523: although anagolf doesn't do \r\n -> \n
17:31:08 <alise> and in the input form, a newline becomes \r\n
17:31:13 <alise> so if you need one, you should upload a file
17:31:33 <ais523> I submitted a legit solution to puyo puyo btw; I'm not sure if legit or cheat is shorter
17:31:41 <ais523> it's likely to be quite close
17:31:44 <alise> hmm... a maze solver would be a nice problem
17:31:50 <ais523> that's been set already
17:32:02 <ais523> I know because I have a golfed maze solver in my anagolf directory
17:32:04 <alise> that is, you're given an ascii maze, a starting position, and an end position; you have to output hjkl according to the directions
17:32:21 <alise> with sufficiently huge mazes and sufficiently many that cheating doesn't help
17:32:32 <alise> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?maze+solving
17:32:34 <alise> output format sucks though
17:33:47 <Sgeo> Hmm, I guess for mazes, that would be hardcoding the solution
17:33:52 <ais523> Sgeo: solving the problem via hardcoding
17:33:58 <alise> pretty much, but with compression techniques
17:34:07 <ais523> or even worse, hardcoding the three possible outputs and picking one at random
17:34:14 <ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers
17:34:17 <ais523> and just completely ignoring the input
17:34:36 <alise> ais523: or using pid-setting and $$
17:34:38 <alise> to do it even more easily
17:34:42 <ais523> my solution to http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?big+number+arithmetic ignores the input (it uses $$)
17:34:53 <ais523> but it's labeled as (cheat)
17:35:02 <ais523> and to be fair, I have no idea what a legit solution to that is /meant/ to look like
17:35:06 <ais523> Sgeo: current process PID
17:35:29 <ais523> alise: I found a nice Perl microgolf optimisation today, btw;
17:35:58 <ais523> it's using special punctuation mark variables like $. for random purposes, rather than $a, etc, simply to avoid having to put a space between two consecutive alphanumerics
17:36:45 <ais523> another nice one is to rely on the fact that $| can't be increased above 1, but instead trying to set it to a higher positive integer silently sets it to 1
17:37:13 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:37:31 <ais523> it fflushes output whenever it's produced, if set to true
17:38:06 <ais523> so the value has no effect on the eventual output, just on its timing
17:38:26 <alise> (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
17:38:32 <alise> should the time it takes to calculate the next one increase each time?
17:38:37 <alise> I suppose yes, with the number format it uses
17:39:13 <ais523> well, yes if you aren't using RLE or something like that
17:39:28 <alise> is it even practical for a compiler to do that?
17:40:37 <ais523> derlo's an interp, and it uses a sort of logarithmic encoding
17:40:53 <alise> right, but interps have more freedom
17:40:53 <ais523> but it hardly matters if you have to execute each individual character in the number to see what it is
17:41:07 <alise> hmm, I bet derlo is faster than my compiler
17:41:10 <ais523> you'd need to do some sort of static optimisation to get better than that
17:41:29 <ais523> and it's pretty fast, I was aiming for speed (as in fast algorithm, rather than as in cfunge)
17:41:54 <alise> ais523: ok, seriously, how would you zero out a drive?
17:41:57 <alise> even with a large bs
17:42:01 <alise> dd takes 70 years, and i have no idea why
17:42:02 <ais523> why would you zero out a drive?
17:42:06 <alise> i know usb sticks are slow, but
17:42:30 <alise> ais523: to put new stuff on it without the previous partition headers and the like
17:42:33 <alise> hey, it may have been zeroed out
17:42:41 <alise> merely by not having any data after the first N bytes already zeroed
17:42:56 <alise> *it may have already been zeroed out
17:43:15 <ais523> what's wrong with having the old headers; surely they should be in uninited data and thus never read
17:43:25 <ais523> just like you don't have to zero out the heap in a C program before mallocing from it
17:43:27 <alise> well, unetbootin was complaining. >_>
17:43:48 <alise> heh, if i zero out a drive, should i just rm the /dev/sdXN files?
17:44:42 <ais523> hmm, it seems that on fibo10, at least (a base 10 fibonacci program), underload.scm is about twice as fast as derlo
17:45:04 <ais523> a bit less than twice, actually
17:45:27 <ais523> is what I actually ran, I wasn't paying attention...
17:45:35 <fizzie> alise: You should make it rescan the partition table, but I forget exactly how. It's some ioctl, fdisk will do it for you.
17:45:47 <fizzie> (Then udev'll handle the devices.)
17:46:18 <ais523> hmm, although I'm using an old binary, and apparently it contains calls to invalid()
17:46:20 <alise> I don't want to write a partition table.
17:46:32 <alise> I'm going to create the filesystem directly on the drive.
17:46:38 <alise> ais523: what gcc flags? and wtf!
17:46:47 <fizzie> Well, you can write an empty table.
17:46:55 <fizzie> Then dump a filesystem on top of that.
17:46:59 <ais523> alise: I don't know, I used the binary that was sitting around in the directory rather than recompiling
17:47:00 <alise> fizzie: true, then mkwhatever will overwrite it
17:47:17 <alise> -O3 is fun, although it usually never terminates
17:47:32 <ais523> but I'm guessing it was a pretty high optimisation level
17:47:48 <alise> ais523: the problem with the compiler is its function data structure
17:48:04 <alise> ais523: ideally, it'd be written in assembly, and concatenating would actually copy the second function's machine code on to the end of the first
17:48:26 <ais523> hmm, what about using Forth/FORTH?
17:48:27 <alise> hmm, with invalid(the_char) in assembly you could avoid storing strings
17:48:35 <alise> just convert the code back to characters
17:48:50 <alise> ais523: probably pointless, as far as I can tell, although not entirely
17:48:51 <alise> it's not an acronym
17:48:55 <alise> Forth is the non-irritating way to say it
17:48:58 <alise> FORTH is just the filename relic
17:49:11 <ais523> along the lines of me insisting that the computer game is called ADVENT?
17:49:18 <alise> and is about as annoying as someone saying LISP
17:49:23 <alise> ais523: in a way, yes
17:49:37 <alise> technically, the name would be Fourth, but.
17:49:42 <alise> (limited filename lengths)
17:50:37 <ais523> in Scheme, it would be Lis?
17:50:49 <ais523> because ending questions with a p is an oldfashioned relic
17:51:06 <alise> ais523: it's case-insensitive, so it'd be lIs? too
17:51:36 <ais523> lIs? is good for confusing people whose fonts don't distinguish the character
17:51:41 <alise> grr, I'm not certain what I need to install to get mkfs.(msdos|vat)
17:51:43 <ais523> it's as bad as the Ill status change in NetHack
17:51:46 <ais523> which looks like III in some fonts
17:51:56 <alise> I use a serifed font
17:52:08 <ais523> alise: it's installed on my system
17:52:12 <alise> it would be quite an odd l that looked like a capital serifed I
17:52:30 <ais523> but what I normally do is, I run which first to make sure the command isn't installed
17:52:34 <ais523> and if it isn't, I try to run it
17:52:41 <ais523> then command-not-found kicks in and tells me which package it's in
17:52:45 <alise> not on Arch it doesn't
17:52:57 <Sgeo> alise, you don't use Dejavu Sans Mono?
17:53:08 <ais523> Sgeo: monospace for /IRC/?
17:53:22 <alise> Sgeo: Bitstream Charter
17:53:23 <ais523> I know it's common, but I can't see any reason why you'd do that except to make myndzi's /o/ thing work properly
17:53:27 * Sgeo was referring to NetHack
17:53:38 <Sgeo> But I'm using the same font for IRC too >.>
17:53:41 <alise> I meant on IRC, "III" misrepresents what I'd see.
17:53:41 <ais523> *I know it's common, but I can't see any reason why you'd do that except to make myndzi's \o/ thing work properly
17:53:57 <ais523> I use DVSM for NetHack, definitely
17:54:00 <alise> Charter is wonderful on low-dpi displays (it was invented for 300 dpi laser printers), but the / is a bit wide.
17:54:20 <fizzie> ais523: A lot of people have their IRCs in a terminal, which is a good reason to do monospace.
17:54:20 <alise> I like Luxi Mono quite a bit for code, although haven't got it set up.
17:54:24 <ais523> interestingly, DejaVu Sans Mono and Menlo are even more similar than Arial and Helvetica
17:54:30 <alise> it's like a nice legible serif, except monospaced
17:54:38 <alise> ais523: because the latter is openly based on the former
17:54:45 <alise> and is basically a minor tweak of the former
17:54:46 <ais523> common ancestor, I thought
17:55:06 <alise> literally, Menlo is just DVSM with one or two tiny lines moved
17:55:10 <alise> *two lines moved tinily
17:55:22 <alise> ais523: http://static.arstechnica.net/apple/menlo_v_dejavu_sans_mono_300.png
17:55:28 <alise> the exact differences, as rendered by OS X
17:55:32 <alise> slight common ancestor
17:55:36 <alise> Bitstream Vera Sans Mono
17:55:52 <alise> but DejaVu is identical to Bitstream if Bitstream already had the character, I think
17:55:58 <alise> so it shouldn't matter for ascii
17:56:30 <alise> http://www.leancrew.com/all-this/images/dejavu-menlo-colors.png bigger version
17:56:37 -!- lament has joined.
17:57:27 <alise> mkfs.vfat: Device partition expected, not making filesystem on entire device '/dev/sdb' (use -I to override)
17:57:30 <alise> You're so boring, mkfs.vfat.
17:57:43 <ais523> there is an override option
17:57:56 <ais523> but mkfs generally likes a partition to reformat, rather than bare metal
17:58:49 <alise> ais523: yes, but on USB drives there's little point to partitioning, really
17:59:17 <alise> there we go, Debian testing installer jibbering on to the drive
17:59:22 <ais523> alise: I've seen USB drives with multiple partitions before now
17:59:22 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but that's mere preference is all.
17:59:24 <alise> worth taking a look at, I figure
17:59:32 <pikhq> No technical reason for a partition table at all.
17:59:49 <ais523> pikhq: are there not OSes which won't try to mount the whole partition automatically?
17:59:59 <ais523> I'd be surprised if a zero-partition USB stick mounted in Windows
18:00:15 <pikhq> That's how preformatted USB sticks usually ship, isn't it?
18:00:19 <cpressey> < alise> i was thinking of some image-based magic that the search box does <-- there is a java(?) applet somewhere that lets you search for TeX codes by scrawling the output character
18:00:28 <alise> cpressey: javascript
18:00:35 <alise> it's called detexify
18:00:41 <alise> http://detexify.kirelabs.org/classify.html
18:02:33 <cpressey> < alise> in protest, I will attempt to use cpressey's tool to do it instead <-- yaeolc? it's in the catseye.tc archive.
18:02:58 <alise> didn't it use to be on the site?
18:03:04 <alise> *used, perhaps; such a strange idiom
18:04:26 <alise> [Richard Dawkins and David Attenborough interviewing each other]
18:04:27 <alise> Which living scientist do you most admire, and why?
18:04:28 <alise> RD: David Attenborough.
18:05:13 <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
18:05:50 <alise> time to wipe my entire system and put something new on yet again
18:05:51 <ais523> `addquote <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
18:05:59 <ais523> we need more philosophy to balance out the crudeness
18:06:14 <alise> psht, we aren't crude! we're really crude!
18:06:18 <HackEgo> 220|<cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
18:06:22 <alise> MWAHAHA HackEgo WILL NOT COMPLY WI-- oh.
18:06:30 <HackEgo> 167|<alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
18:06:39 <HackEgo> 148|<Keiya> Why are the cops in GTA always so obsessed with my asshole?
18:06:43 <HackEgo> 158|<Warrigal> Darn, now I can't acknowledge the reference you were making.
18:06:54 <alise> as a rule of thumb, all the quotes from Sine are rubbish
18:07:02 <alise> and all the ones from here are either incomprehensible or good
18:07:11 <ais523> how did Sine quotes end up in HackEgo's qdb?
18:07:24 <cpressey> < alise> ais523: to put new stuff on it without the previous partition headers and the like <-- then you only have to zero out the partition table i think. this would also be kinder on the lifespan of the flash memory...
18:07:41 <alise> ais523: hackego is also in sine
18:07:55 <HackEgo> 12|<Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence
18:08:00 <alise> cpressey: eh, flash memory has a great lifespan
18:08:06 <alise> and it only ends up read-only; you never lose data
18:08:20 <alise> <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence ;; this is just a ripoff of oklopol saying this about torture >:|
18:08:24 <HackEgo> 89|<Sgeo> What else is there to vim besides editing commands?
18:14:09 * Sgeo ponders what a syntax that wouldn't play nice with Factor's peg.ebnf vocab would look like
18:14:24 * Sgeo has trouble imagining it :/
18:14:34 <Sgeo> But I still want to make such an esolang
18:14:38 <ais523> Sgeo: how does it do on INTERCAL's?
18:14:53 <Sgeo> I don't really remember INTERCAL's syntax :/
18:14:54 <cpressey> alise: yaeolc is still on the site, it's just in the 'archive' section, along with all else I don't care about
18:15:20 <ais523> cpressey: I'm vaguely worried that I expanded that acronym right off
18:17:28 <alise> it's the most convoluted converter i've ever seen
18:18:29 <cpressey> alise: it handles CRCRLF, baby!
18:18:42 <ais523> cpressey: what does it convert it /into/?
18:18:44 <cpressey> i'll never know how those got IN those files, but they did
18:18:44 * Sgeo wonders if he should use peg.ebnd for Underload
18:18:56 <cpressey> ais523: whatever perl thinks the proper EOL sequence for the current OS is
18:19:30 <alise> Not unless it's really easy.
18:19:37 <ais523> INTERCAL's syntax doesn't work properly as EBNF for several reasons
18:19:44 <alise> Time to attempt a reboot.
18:19:51 <alise> cpressey: Sir Gay "Overkill" Oh
18:19:59 <ais523> and even if you do some preprocessing so that it does, it fails to be LR(n) for any finite n
18:20:07 <Sgeo> I remember someone saying that this wasn't really limited to EBNF
18:20:11 <Sgeo> Not sure about that though
18:20:17 <alise> Sgeo: it's utterly trivial to parse
18:20:28 <alise> ais523: I now have a perverse wish to make that Underload->asm compiler.
18:20:30 <alise> ais523: Underload is.
18:20:47 <Sgeo> I'll make two versions
18:20:58 <ais523> a really good parser-generator, though, would be able to do Underload even more simply than a hand-rolled parser
18:21:01 <Sgeo> I should learn how to deal with balanced parens someday
18:21:08 <alise> generate a prelude that pushes the stuff that comes after it
18:21:14 <alise> then cat the top element of the stack on to it
18:21:31 <alise> * would obviously just be either putting a jmp at the end of the first one, or copying the code from the second onto the end of the first
18:21:39 <alise> ^ is easy, just a jmp
18:22:06 <alise> S would traverse the instructions, converting the asm back into the relevant characters
18:22:11 <cpressey> ais523: hey, you're right. you could do it "right in" the parser generator, if the generator knew a few extra tricks. maybe Zz would be a good match for that.
18:22:20 <alise> (invalid instructions would be compiled to some sort of error call that includes the instruction character)
18:22:24 <alise> (so you could convert that back)
18:22:29 <alise> and... that's it, really
18:22:36 <alise> security features of processors would fuck with this
18:22:40 <ais523> cpressey: well, my OIL to C compiler is written entirely in yacc (or alternatively bison)
18:22:51 <Sgeo> cpressey, the EBNF parsing thign can execute code as it parses, but I plan on not doing anything interesting with that
18:22:57 <Sgeo> I want to do this "right" in some weird way
18:22:58 <ais523> no lex involved, no separate C files (although there's a lot of C embedded in the epilog)
18:23:39 <cpressey> ais523: I should clarify -- my thought was to write an Underload *interpreter* in a (slightly modified) parser generator.
18:23:54 <ais523> hmm; IIRC yacc can't do loops
18:23:56 <cpressey> slightly modified to be able to restart itself
18:24:18 <cpressey> most, yes, it would never occur to most parser generator authors to include this feature, but
18:24:18 <ais523> obvious solution: add continuations to C, use call/cc inside the yacc action code and generate loops that way
18:24:54 <fizzie> yacc's action code is also pretty much just textually substituted in, I'm sure you could take an axe to the internals to make it "work".
18:26:52 <ais523> like the old trick of using unmatched brackets in triggers in the Age of Mythology map builder in order to inject code into the intermediate representation it uses to handle all the map logic?
18:27:13 <alise> a parser generator for Underload is worthwhile only if it's this easy from inside the language:
18:27:13 <alise> http://pastie.org/1152283.txt?key=wdchp9xjc6oqcpx4byptha
18:27:30 <alise> and with a few flags in the parse call can give "expected X but got Y" messages with line and column numbers
18:28:41 <alise> Now I will proceed to mess up my system. See you soon!
18:28:48 <alise> But, beforehand, quick!
18:29:04 <alise> ais523: Give me an opinion on KDE vs GNOME that is /not/ based in logic, fact, or any other kind of reasonability.
18:29:27 <cpressey> < cpressey> slightly modified to be able to restart itself <-- maybe one that handles #include <nextfile> ?
18:29:31 <fizzie> strlen("GNOME") > strlen("KDE").
18:29:42 <ais523> alise: I'm more used to Gnome and last time I tried to use KDE, it was broken loads of ways and couldn't even load a configuration screen
18:29:46 <alise> FireFly: You're not ais523! How can I trust you?
18:29:59 <alise> ais523: That's based in logic and fact.
18:30:04 <alise> I am disappointed.
18:30:12 <fizzie> alise: On the other hand, I didn't even tell you which was better, so you can take it both ways.
18:31:06 <ais523> alise: the joke is that my statement wasn't an opinion, but an actual fact
18:31:18 <alise> ais523: DRAT! Foiled again!
18:31:23 <ais523> although one designed to be very biased, to the extent that the fact almost becomes an opinion based on what's included in it
18:31:24 <alise> Maybe I'll just install twm.
18:31:35 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:36:27 <Sgeo> Turning Underload commands into tokens might not be a great idea unless I could recursively parse..
18:36:30 <Sgeo> Which I can, I guess
18:37:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:37:08 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:38:23 <Vorpal> hm how does valgrind actually work? I get the impression that it interprets the machine code. But why does it then mess with LD_PRELOAD and such? Hm...
18:38:24 <ais523> what sort of parser doesn't do recursion?
18:39:01 <Vorpal> ais523, um a HQ9+ one wouldn't need to
18:39:03 <ais523> you're lucky alise isn't here, or she'd be laughing at you for weeks
18:39:07 <Vorpal> it could be purely iterative
18:39:14 <ais523> Vorpal: you don't parse HQ9+, you lex it
18:39:18 <ais523> the parsing step is entirely redundant
18:40:49 <Sgeo> Well, I mean, at interpretation time
18:41:15 <Vorpal> ais523, btw I did HQ9+ in file(1) magic recently + a wrapper shell script to munch the source in advance. Not sure if you saw that
18:41:23 <Vorpal> well me and fizzie did rather
18:41:26 <cpressey> i feel like pedantically pointing out that the literally meanings of "parse" and "lexically analyze" are only linked to particular formal language concepts (like recursiveness) by convention.
18:41:51 * Sgeo should learn the difference between parsing and lexing
18:41:56 <ais523> cpressey: arguably, the distinction between parser and lexer is convention anyway
18:41:56 <Vorpal> file(1) is so limited that it can't even do the Q command without pre-processing the source
18:42:40 <ais523> e.g. in C-INTERCAL, the lexer is responsible for matching closing grouping marks (the parse handles the open grouping marks)
18:43:44 <cpressey> yes, and lexers traditionally handle comments (which sometimes nest) because they can appear anywhere in the source (and that would lead to a very messy grammar)
18:44:02 <Sgeo> What _is_ the distinction?
18:44:47 <Sgeo> At least, conventionally then
18:44:49 <cpressey> although it's actually quite rare to see a[i/*hi*/]=/*hey*/x+/*yo*/y;
18:45:10 <cpressey> Sgeo: parsers work on grammars. specified in BNF or EBNF, usually
18:45:40 <cpressey> lexers, on the other hand, just splits up the input into 'words' (tokens)
18:45:48 <cpressey> the parser consumes the tokens produced by the lexer
18:46:19 <Sgeo> Factor's peg.ebnf has definable tokenizer for some reason
18:46:21 <cpressey> Maybe to be clearer: a parser follows a grammar.
18:46:45 <cpressey> Sgeo: then it includes a lexer. many parsing frameworks do. (Parsec does, for instance)
18:47:25 <cpressey> aka "scanner" -- I learned that term and tend to use it, but it's fallen out of fashion I think.
18:48:04 <fizzie> "Scanner" sounds an order of magnitude more sci-fi than "lexer".
18:49:21 <fizzie> Wikipedia's ridiculous parser generator comparison table -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_parser_generators -- has a "Lexer" column, a simple eyeball-uniq says the possible values are none/external/internal/generated/?.
18:49:38 <ais523> fizzie: isn't that an eyeball-sort-uniq?
18:49:52 <cpressey> I shall argue that "scanner" is a tribute to David Cronenberg. Because it's only proper that an esolang should make your head explode.
18:49:55 <ais523> uniq will repeat values if there's a different value in between
18:50:20 <fizzie> Or eyeball-cut-sort-uniq, but that's getting ridiculous.
18:53:19 -!- alise has joined.
18:54:18 <alise> ais523: do you have any idea how hard getting the squeeze installer onto a USB stick is?
18:55:07 <alise> 10:39:03 <ais523> you're lucky alise isn't here, or she'd be laughing at you for weeks
18:55:23 <fizzie> It shouldn't be very hard.
18:56:18 <alise> fizzie: first, you have to download the daily CD image. then, you have to download the daily boot.img.gz, which is in a directory called hd-media, and not obviously marked as for USB images
18:56:27 <alise> then, you have to zcat boot.image.gz to the drive
18:56:29 <alise> then, you have to mount it
18:56:33 <alise> then, you have to copy the ISO there
18:56:48 <alise> then, if you did this on a partition on the stick, not the stick itself, you have to install a program to put a new MBR on the stick
18:57:02 <alise> that's not hugely difficult, but it's certainly not obvious at all
18:57:11 <fizzie> Oh, I thought it's usually just "zcat boot.img.gz > /dev/sdX" and "install from network".
18:57:17 <alise> and if you match, say, the squeeze alpha installer with the nightly boot.img.gz, it doesn't work
18:57:18 <alise> which is just nice
18:57:31 <alise> fizzie: well, I copied the netinstall ISO
18:57:38 <alise> i'm not sure /exactly/ what that provides, but it sure scans for one
18:57:44 <alise> so presumably there is a good reason for copying it there
18:58:16 <fizzie> It might be so. I thought they had at some point a single "stick this into stick and it has the netinst stuff in it" image, but based on current debian-installer image sizes, maybe not.
18:58:35 <alise> wrt lexer vs parser: for an awful lot of languages, I think there's no point writing them separately
18:58:55 <alise> complex languages with a lot of fancy multi-character tokens, maybe. but even then, there's little gained in writing TO rather than '=>'
18:59:08 <alise> it can sort out whitespace and comments for you, and you basically need one if you do indentation-based grouping
18:59:10 <alise> apart from that...
19:02:19 <alise> fizzie: Perhaps they do for stable.
19:02:22 <alise> But, you know, stable.
19:02:39 <alise> I don't even like Debian much, I'm just a bit sick of Arch not working nicely with GNOME in subtle ways.
19:05:31 <alise> Let's Try That Again.
19:05:36 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:05:59 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
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19:17:14 <Sgeo> Noncommands should only appear in parens, right?
19:17:55 <pikhq> ... Huh. The UI on my phone just crashed. Gah.
19:18:39 <ais523> Sgeo: if they appear outside, the program will necessarily crash unless there's an infinite loop before they're reached
19:18:47 <ais523> but I don't think that means they're banned, they're just a bad idea
19:19:17 <Sgeo> The way I'm writing it, it won't parse :/
19:21:54 <zzo38> O, and then you can send to output or discard it from the stack
19:26:08 <cpressey> Sgeo: You can always execute it from the stack, though, so you'll still have to handle them somehow.
19:26:32 <cpressey> I guess, trying to execute a string containing noncommands, from the stack, could result in a parse error.
19:26:33 <Sgeo> In that case, the parse error will occur in the middle of running the program :/
19:26:41 <cpressey> If you parse strings as you pop them.
19:26:45 <zzo38> Sgeo: Are you trying to write a compiler? Or parser? Or...?
19:27:06 <Sgeo> That uses Factor's EBNF parser vocab
19:27:20 <zzo38> Just interpret each character as reading, when using interpreting of Underload (and for some others)
19:27:42 <cpressey> Sgeo: Yes, you'd get a parse error in the middle of the program; nothing really wrong with that though, it's actually kind of cool. :)
19:28:18 <zzo38> Well, in QBASIC, it is possible to get a syntax error during runtime, if you use the ERROR command. But, this is different.
19:29:01 <cpressey> Hm, couldn't QBASIC load and parse external BASIC files at runtime? Possibly I'm thinking of AmigaBASIC.
19:29:34 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes, QBASIC can do that, using CHAIN command, that means it will then parse the loaded file
19:29:54 <zzo38> But you can also create syntax error at runtime using ERROR command, without loading another file
19:30:41 <zzo38> In GWBASIC you can do CHAIN MERGE which might be used if you prompt the user for entering a command (such as a graph equation)
19:33:23 <cpressey> Yes, I once used this technique for exactly that, a graphing program: saved the formula to a text file in the RAM disk, then included it as if it were a BASIC program...
19:33:43 <cpressey> AmigaBASIC and QBASIC were almost identical, both being from Microsoft.
19:35:07 <Sgeo> I'm.. not sure I see how to do recursive rules
19:36:31 -!- alise has joined.
19:36:37 <alise> debian installer hello
19:37:00 <alise> apparently it's going to take 67 years to download everything
19:37:32 <alise> (by 67 i of course mean 20 minutes)
19:37:46 <Sgeo> Wait, I don't need to
19:37:50 <alise> sorry, 40 minutesnow, apparently
19:37:57 <alise> Debian time is even worse than Microsoft time
19:38:06 <Sgeo> Since parens don't necessarily contain valid code
19:38:25 <alise> Sgeo -- usually, you don't even pre-parse Underload.
19:38:33 <Sgeo> alise, but I want to!
19:38:55 <alise> A highly pointless endeavour unless you are writing a compiler.
19:39:27 <Sgeo> Practice for writing more esolang interpreters!
19:39:35 <alise> I dearly hope not.
19:40:01 <alise> There are enough already, unless there is some novelty beyond being written in Factor.
19:40:15 <alise> Anyway, *most* esolangs aren't pre-parsed.
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19:42:01 <alise> what does ^ look like for you guys?
19:42:08 <alise> wareya_: well, pretty much...
19:42:14 * Sgeo eats the caret
19:42:15 <alise> the test line, Sgeo.
19:42:23 <Sgeo> It looks like test
19:42:48 <alise> then either freenode's server disregards everything after a 0 byte, or your clients do (because of using C strings)
19:42:57 <Sgeo> What does clog say?
19:42:58 <alise> probably the former, but it would be fun if it was the latter
19:43:08 <alise> you could hide messages from certain people :P
19:43:12 <wareya_> Isn't that to deny format attacks?
19:43:15 <alise> Sgeo, all I have is busybox.
19:43:25 <alise> I'm surprised it even has nc built in.
19:43:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:43:55 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:44:11 * Sgeo would find it funny if alise would only be able to use this to show messages to Vorpal
19:44:48 <alise> can you check clog?
19:44:56 <alise> it's probably written in C though or something
19:45:31 <alise> the only inconvenience is typing "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" a lot, and getting my lines interrupted when someone else sends a message :)
19:45:38 <alise> and, uh, everything else, but those are the major ones.
19:45:47 <alise> clearly I should use zzo38's client.
19:46:19 <alise> Not often you hear recent Radiohead coming out of a car on the street...
19:47:13 <alise> I wish debian-installer would decide how long it'll take to install already.
19:47:43 <cpressey> I am suffering from severe information overload.
19:48:14 <cpressey> Yes... that's abundantly clear.
19:48:30 <alise> Wow, their car stereo sucks.
19:48:50 <alise> They appear to have made it so bassy that you can't actually hear the guitar.
19:50:03 <alise> It doesn't even sound bassy though. Just like they remixed it and took out the guitar track.
19:50:33 <alise> pikhq: Do you still use Gentoo?
19:50:44 <alise> If you didn't, I'd probably try out whatever distro you are using. :P
19:50:51 <alise> Didn't, don't, whatever.
19:51:32 <alise> They should include Tetris on the installer image so that you can entertain yourself while it installs.
19:52:25 <oklopol> Vorpal still has alise in notlistentotion?
19:53:08 <Gregor> alise: http://codu.org/rawirc.c :P
19:53:12 <alise> oklopol: you mean /ignore?
19:53:33 <alise> Gregor: eagerly awaiting an nc-downloadable gcc binary
19:54:03 <oklopol> but i figured it's clearer that way
19:54:03 <alise> oklopol: not afaik, he just does it to seem like he's making a point and then takes it off within hours
19:54:19 <fizzie> If freenode's doing the "standard" thing, messages can contain any sequence of octets not including 0, 10 or 13.
19:54:22 <oklopol> i don't know where i got the impression
19:54:27 <oklopol> something i read in the log
19:54:29 <alise> fizzie: I find that racist.
19:54:42 <alise> oklopol: that may just be dimwittedness >:)
19:55:10 <oklopol> alise: Sgeo said something like alise could do X to show messages to Vorpal, maybe it was about something completely and utterly else.
19:55:41 <fizzie> "The NUL character is not special in message framing, and basically could end up inside a parameter, but as it would cause extra complexities in normal C string handling. Therefore NUL is not allowed within messages." Interesting grammar there.
19:55:42 <oklopol> it's funny how i'm so damn pedantic about writing correct english, but at the same time i use incorrect words for fun all the time
19:56:51 <fizzie> Everyone's IRC server is C.
19:57:02 <wareya_> I use C to hack old video games
19:57:31 <alise> oklopol: it was that if the NUL byte only ended a message because of clients using C strings, and the server passed it on, then a client that could handle it could see the part of a message after a NUL byte
19:57:33 <Vorpal> <oklopol> Vorpal still has alise in notlistentotion? <-- um no
19:57:58 <alise> oklopol: Sgeo or someone thought it would be hilarious if this only meant I could send messages to Vorpal, meaning his client would be the only one that wouldn't cut off after a NUL
19:58:03 <oklopol> Vorpal: yeah alise told me already, I GUESS YOU COULDN'T SEE THAT....
19:58:12 <alise> but, as the server cuts it off there, this is not the case.
19:58:15 <Vorpal> oklopol, I didn't bother reading all the scrollback :P
19:58:15 <wareya_> IT would be an exploit if the server didn't chop after the nul byte
19:58:26 <oklopol> yeah i didn't exactly read the stuff around it
19:58:26 <alise> nor is it likely that Vorpal would be the only one using a certain client, and that Vorpal's client would be the only unbroken one.
19:58:31 <Vorpal> oklopol, I only read the highlights
19:58:43 <alise> so oklopol how has your day been? Vorpal
19:58:51 <alise> mine's been great! Vorpal
19:59:02 <oklopol> alise: it's been rather empty, but yesterday a 15yo chick told me i'm pretty sexy
19:59:37 <alise> my mind hasn't fully adjusted to the reality of being 15 yet
19:59:50 <alise> because it auto-heuristically-categorises people who are 15 as older than me
19:59:51 <Vorpal> alise, hm? nul on irc?
19:59:59 <Vorpal> I'm not sure that the server will pass that on at all
20:00:18 <Sgeo> Vorpal, apparently it doesn't.
20:00:34 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:00:37 <oklopol> i've mostly been studying japanese, it's soooooo much easier than math
20:00:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why on earth would it do that at all?
20:00:55 <oklopol> math is too hard, i'm thinking maybe i should become a bartender
20:00:56 <cpressey> Who can be sure of anything in this wack-a-day modern world of ours?
20:01:03 <alise> so oklopol, I've been thinking, about that bet, how about we fix 50 pounds as whatever it was worth in GBP when the bet was made
20:01:11 <alise> so that the amount can't fluctuate
20:01:25 <alise> dammit, why couldn't the new world order have concealed the recession?
20:01:33 <alise> then you wouldn't have seen right through me :|
20:01:51 <alise> hey single digits installation time in minutes, that's progress
20:02:04 <Vorpal> <oklopol> math is too hard, i'm thinking maybe i should become a bartender <-- I thought you loved math?
20:02:05 <alise> the bet is for 17 as far as I am aware.
20:02:18 <alise> i turn 17 in slightly less than two years
20:02:31 <alise> oklopol: well otherwise all it'd signify is "I didn't break the law!"
20:02:38 <alise> not the best odds really
20:02:44 <oklopol> Vorpal: i also love being the evil dictator of a country
20:02:59 <alise> That country... is Canada.
20:03:00 <Vorpal> <alise> hey single digits installation time in minutes, that's progress <-- as opposed to it taking longer or it being expressed in some unsuitable unit?
20:03:11 <cpressey> oklopol: I can immediately see how this new vocation combines your two loves.
20:03:14 <alise> Vorpal: take a guess
20:03:19 <Vorpal> alise, the former probably.
20:03:26 <alise> Vorpal: congratulations.
20:03:31 <Vorpal> alise, but I seem to remember the latter too. For some old software
20:03:42 <Vorpal> that didn't expect that the installation could take less than an hour
20:03:43 <alise> woo 6 minutes. is GNOME fucking huge or does Debian just install a whole load of crap anyway?
20:03:52 <alise> Ubuntu takes like .00001% of the time to install
20:04:00 <alise> and /it/ has GNOME...
20:04:30 <alise> sure, it's a netinstall, but I'm counting the Ubuntu download time too
20:04:40 <oklopol> tried to get my gf to have sex with you, but she wasn't particularly interested
20:04:41 <alise> also, the non-netinstall Debian is something like 12 CDs.
20:04:42 <Vorpal> alise, better mirror for ubuntu maybe?
20:05:09 <alise> Vorpal: mirrorservice.org; I also tried the Swedish mirror. basically same results
20:05:19 <alise> They get good speeds.
20:05:35 <alise> oklopol: i can't believe it and am going to commit suicide now
20:05:40 <alise> I blame airline food
20:06:00 <oklopol> erm that's good news for you
20:06:02 <Vorpal> alise, hm, same mirror for ubuntu and debian?
20:06:30 <zzo38> How should I draw the control graphics for WEBMATH?
20:06:35 <oklopol> also it's illegal for ppl under 17 to have sex?`
20:06:46 <alise> oklopol: yeah but I don't like having 50 pounds
20:06:53 <alise> money is materialistic and makes me sad man
20:07:11 <zzo38> I have drawn a down arrow for '\n' but perhaps it can be improved and made differently, too, and then make the other control graphics, too, such as '\r' and so on
20:07:12 <alise> Vorpal: both get the same speeds (800 KiB/s)
20:07:39 <alise> Vorpal: maybe because the Ubuntu is one HTTP request, but Debian is thousands of them due to being netinstall
20:07:46 <alise> still, HTTP overhead isn't /that/ excessive
20:08:12 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think it uses persistent HTTP, if it is aptitude or similar.
20:08:13 <alise> oklopol: it's like 38 in America
20:08:20 <alise> Vorpal: it's debian-installer
20:08:29 <Vorpal> no clue how it downloads stuff
20:08:33 <alise> it has its own stuff.
20:08:33 <Vorpal> could be wget for all I know
20:08:40 <alise> it downloads everything first. no, no wget
20:08:52 <Vorpal> alise, well, yeah http overhead shouldn't be that large
20:08:57 <alise> it's probably some HTTP downloading library built in
20:09:06 <alise> to save on space. there are no HTTP clients in /bin or /usr/bin
20:09:14 <Vorpal> alise, not even fetch?
20:09:30 <alise> nope. it's a BusyBox thing, not even vi
20:09:41 <alise> although it does have nano, presumably since it's easier to use at first
20:09:44 <Vorpal> well busybox has a built in http client iirc
20:09:53 <alise> yes, but it's not built. just like BusyBox vi
20:09:55 <cpressey> no of course not wget. wget would be a known quantity
20:09:59 <Vorpal> compile time option of course
20:10:46 <cpressey> alise: gotta be some weirdo http client lib, as you said.
20:10:57 <alise> cpressey: dude, this thing is meant to fit on tiny tiny disks :)
20:10:59 <zzo38> If it has netcat, just use headerless HTTP for simple download
20:11:05 <alise> well not THAT tiny, but
20:11:05 <cpressey> alise: it's probably fetching from Australia or something.
20:11:11 <Vorpal> alise, I thought it was still an ISO
20:11:13 <alise> cpressey: uh, you select the mirror
20:11:29 <cpressey> alise: you get the *impression* that you select the mirror...
20:11:31 <alise> Vorpal: well, yes, but it has to fit all the big stuff on. and it isn't CD-sized; it's 100 MiB or so
20:11:57 <alise> Vorpal: I had to download a bit more to make it work on a USB stick. cpressey: I'm pretty sure those download lines in the log are accurate.
20:12:11 <Vorpal> alise, does it report download speed while downloading?
20:12:30 <Vorpal> if not, maybe it is slower now. Like, network problems somewhere
20:12:44 <alise> Vorpal: it's done now. but no; however, I know my internet is fine. and I tried two mirrors, both of which always get good speeds on my connection
20:12:56 <zzo38> The gopher protocol is also simple. I think there is also TFTP, although I don't know much about TFTP. And then there are a lot of other protocols, it depends what you want to do
20:13:00 <alise> it /was/ downloading over a thousand files. HTTP overhead is probably it.
20:13:08 <alise> zzo38: Completely true and... irrelevant.
20:14:10 <zzo38> If you omit the HTTP/1.1 from the HTTP request it will operate without headers, in case you need to do that
20:14:34 <Vorpal> since when has google starting showing search results when you type!?
20:14:44 <alise> cool i fucked up my terminal
20:14:53 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
20:14:53 <zzo38> alise: <CTCP> <CTCP>
20:15:45 <Vorpal> alise, if it closes connection in between (non-persistent http) it might also include tcp handshake overhead
20:15:52 <Vorpal> alise, what is the RTT to the mirror?
20:15:53 <alise> Apkasdk-34k-0k===-rl
20:16:04 <alise> Ajajaj? OIdfjosdnfawerkjvflk. Masdofisjgoj.
20:16:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's called "Google Instant", apparently.
20:16:18 <alise> s is an underscore, t is >-!
20:16:27 <alise> OH WHAT FUN DERIVES FROM BROKEN TERMINALS.
20:16:36 <alise> IF YOU TALK IN UPPERCASE I CAN READ IT.
20:16:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, any way to turn it off? It seems to make my browser pause handling input while it fetches stuff. Sometimes
20:16:56 <alise> ALTHOUGH . IS A DOWNWARDS ARROW...
20:17:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: There should be a "Instant is on" next to the input field, above the "Safesearch is off/on" toggle.
20:17:49 <alise> JUST LIKE THE 80S.
20:17:53 <zzo38> In my computer the instant search and stuff is off
20:17:54 <alise> 0 IS A SOLID BLOCK.
20:18:30 <zzo38> I don't usually use the search box anyways, I can use C-l :g (which is a shortcut)
20:18:33 <Vorpal> alise, what is like the 80s?
20:18:40 <Vorpal> google without instant search?
20:18:50 <fizzie> I think it's about his terminal woes.
20:18:50 <alise> I CANNOT SEE A SINGLE THING alise
20:18:56 <alise> okay so my name looks like alise
20:19:00 <Vorpal> alise, try typing reset
20:19:13 <alise> alise -- shaded block, >- box drawing (low), i, underscore, e
20:19:21 <alise> then , is a left arrow
20:19:29 <alise> "alise:" or "alise,"
20:19:34 <Vorpal> alise, are you on the computer with the problems?
20:19:35 <alise> but please, use upercase. then i can read it
20:19:42 <Vorpal> or with a different one
20:19:57 <Vorpal> alise, PLEASE TRY USING RESET (IN LOWER CASE)
20:20:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: If I've been following right, it's netcat-IRC from a Debian installer session.
20:20:09 <alise> VRPAL: (OKAY HOW DO I DO ) THAT
20:20:14 <alise> WITHOUT QUITTING NC?
20:20:22 <alise> I DID IT BY ENTERING A LOT OF CONTROL CODES AND THE SERVER ECHOED THEM BACK
20:20:38 <alise> SPECIFICALLY, ^ FOLLOWED BY EACH OF QWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNM
20:20:38 <Vorpal> alise, TRICKY WITHOUT EXITING NC THOUGHT YOU HAD SHELL
20:20:50 <alise> I DO BUT THIS IS TOO FUN TO QUIT. ^^ THOSE ARE THE CHARACTERS THAT DID IT
20:20:51 <fizzie> alise: BACKGROUND IT WITH CTRL-Z IF IT HAPPENS TO WORK?
20:21:01 <Vorpal> ALISE: YOUR OWN FAULT I WOULD SAY
20:21:01 <alise> OKAY I HAVE NO RESET PROGRAM
20:21:32 <alise> TODAY IS NOT A GOOD DAY
20:21:36 <Vorpal> alise, CHROOT INTO THE INSTALL AND USE IT'S RESET
20:21:47 <alise> VORPAL: IT HASN'T EVEN FINISHED INSTALLING YET!
20:21:52 <fizzie> alise: LINUX CONSOLE FAQ CLAIMS THAT ESC FOLLOWED BY LOWERCASE C CAUSES A TERMINAL RESET.
20:22:00 <fizzie> alise: TO QUOTE: "THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT IF YOUR SCREEN IS ALL GARBLED".
20:22:06 <Vorpal> alise, WELL MAYBE IT HAS RESET ALREADY EVEN IF NOTHING ELSE
20:22:19 <alise> what did you say Vorpal?
20:22:20 -!- augur has joined.
20:22:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, where did you find that list?
20:22:38 <Vorpal> alise, hm? on which line?
20:22:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: 'twas from http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-HOWTO/Keyboard-and-Console-HOWTO.html via google.
20:22:47 <alise> Vorpal: last message before I said thanks fizzie
20:23:01 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> alise, CHROOT INTO THE INSTALL AND USE IT'S RESET <Vorpal> alise, WELL MAYBE IT HAS RESET ALREADY EVEN IF NOTHING ELSE
20:23:05 <Vorpal> alise, were the two last ones
20:23:14 <cpressey> < zzo38> If you omit the HTTP/1.1 from the HTTP request it will operate without headers, in case you need to do that <-- Weird! Is this widely supported? I don't remember anything about it in RFC 2616.
20:23:34 <alise> cpressey: that is /definitely/ not standard
20:23:38 <Vorpal> alise, I know I used top from inside a partial install to figure out what was going on
20:23:45 <alise> Vorpal: I couldn't find it, anyway, what with ls(1)'s output being unreadable
20:23:56 <fizzie> cpressey: I've used it, always assuming it is some sort of pre-standardization HTTP thing.
20:24:00 <Vorpal> alise, you would need to chroot, since reset reads termcap data
20:24:30 <alise> well, I have chroot. :P
20:24:37 <alise> wow, it's installing Gnash.
20:24:57 <alise> FWIW running NAMES without an argument is a bad idea.
20:25:07 <Vorpal> alise, yes I did chroot and top on when investigating that slow kernel install when doing the opengenera vm
20:25:35 <Vorpal> alise, presumably it returns all non-invisible users?
20:25:38 <alise> could have just done "chroot /foo top"
20:25:47 <alise> yes Vorpal, but also on channels too
20:25:52 <alise> one channel per line
20:26:07 <alise> finishes quickly if you switch to another terminal
20:26:30 <Vorpal> alise, expected. linux VTs are not very fast at printing out a lot of data
20:26:38 <Vorpal> at least not when actively displayed
20:26:44 <fizzie> cpressey: From HTTP/1.0 spec: "If the protocol version is not specified, the recipient must assume that the message is in the simple HTTP/0.9 format."
20:26:54 <fizzie> cpressey: They seem to have removed that bit from the HTTP/1.1 spec, though.
20:27:25 <Vorpal> alise, just do sleep 2 && time dmesg (and switch to another terminal during those 2 seconds, then wait a few seconds and switch back)
20:27:28 <alise> heh, that means that HTTP 1.0 specifies how to handle a non-HTTP 1.0 request
20:27:36 <Vorpal> then do the same without switching
20:27:40 <alise> as silly as the XML standard saying you must die on invalid data; you can't legislate non-XML! you're the XML spec!
20:28:19 <Vorpal> alise, actually it seems pretty reasonable for backward compat when it comes to the HTTP/0.9 stuff
20:28:29 <Vorpal> while the XML stuff is... not very reasonable
20:28:35 <alise> yes, but it's still nonsensical
20:28:55 <alise> you're defining how programs must handle a certain type of data X. therefore, how the programs behave when given some data that is not X is none of your business, and you can't specify it
20:29:12 <alise> if you do, you're effectively saying that everything is valid X, just that most of it is handled by saying "NO WRONG SYNTAX ERROR"
20:29:36 <alise> thus creating your "Octets Specification 1.0"
20:30:25 <fizzie> alise: They've also changed the BNF, in /1.0 it's "Request = Simple-Request | Full-Request" where Simple-Request is "GET", space, URI, CRLF, while "Full-Request" starts with a similar-looking Request-Line with the version field; in /1.1 it's just Request = Request-Line [more stuff].
20:30:37 <Vorpal> alise, actually it is. Since you define how it should handle data on the HTTP port.
20:30:45 <Vorpal> alise, not just how it should handle HTTP data on the HTTP port
20:31:17 <Vorpal> (I'm sure that argument holds up though)
20:31:22 <alise> Vorpal: err, not really, it's far more abstract than that
20:31:29 <alise> "not sure", I assume
20:32:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:32:38 -!- sebbu has joined.
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20:33:03 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:33:10 <alise> Why the hell is it installing Gnash?!
20:33:15 <Vorpal> alise, anyway my argument is reasonable I think: Here I define how to handle data sent to you on port 80. If the data is seemingly not valid, do this (for compatibility reasons).
20:33:21 <Vorpal> seems quite sane to me
20:33:38 <Vorpal> alise, sure you didn't select "install everything" by mistake?
20:34:21 <alise> I'm sure; that isn't even an option.
20:34:27 <alise> Vorpal: but that's /not what the HTTP spec says/
20:35:21 <alise> but if what fizzie says about the BNF is true, then it's actually fine.
20:39:07 <Sgeo> Either the way I'm wearing these is VERY wrong, or this is junk
20:40:31 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:41:10 <Sgeo> Ah, I think this is better
20:41:14 <Sgeo> Still painful, though
20:46:00 <cpressey> fizzie: that explains why I don'
20:46:23 <cpressey> alise: would it totally fuck you up if someone here started using unicode?
20:46:38 <alise> cpressey: not necessarily, no. but i wouldn't be able to see it properly. feel free
20:46:39 <cpressey> well, you know the trick to get back now, so i guess not.
20:47:25 <alise> even if i didn't, i could just restart the console :)
20:48:28 <alise> "Detected blah blah: Windows Vista (loader)" Actually, that's 7...
20:48:45 <cpressey> ♫ some WHERE OVer the RAINbow ♫
20:49:14 * cpressey startled to learn that the unicode spec attempts to define input methods for musical symbols.
20:49:45 <alise> I saw that properly.
20:50:02 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:50:18 <fizzie> Yes, but then you died soon afterwards.
20:50:20 <lament> what's the unicode symbol for the B-minor mass?
20:50:35 <cpressey> "There are no known bidirectional implications for Musical Symbols."
20:50:44 -!- relet1 has joined.
20:51:31 <cpressey> we have not yet found a culture that reads music right-to-left. we are still looking.
20:52:05 -!- alise has joined.
20:52:19 <alise> Sooomewheeeere oover the raiiinbooooooow / Deeebiaaaaan
20:52:27 <fizzie> Having a program output esc followed by "%%G" should make the Linux console output driver handle data in UTF-8 (if it doesn't already; it can be set to do that by default too), but of course the console font probably won't have that many characters.
20:52:32 <fizzie> I guess it's a bit late now.
20:52:38 <alise> Staaarts tooo a mediocre GNO-OME / deeeesktoooop
20:52:55 -!- relet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:53:45 <alise> Wiiiith Cleaar-looks and a branded / baaaackgroooound
20:53:55 <cpressey> If it is the honest brutal VGA console font, ♫ could actually map to a character.
20:54:11 <alise> It's the Linux default.
20:54:25 <zzo38> Why are the blackboard bold letters too large, what is the correct size for a 10pt font?
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20:54:32 <alise> Ooh, Empathy! The worst IRC client ever! The only client that Pidgin is actually better than!
20:54:49 <alise> Ships with support for Facebook Chat but not MSN. Why?
20:55:03 <cpressey> Do they build Empathy for Windows then? I need to slum even further.
20:55:18 <alise> zzo38: They're fine for me.
20:55:23 <alise> zzo38: Try using LaTeX.
20:55:42 <zzo38> alise: I don't mean the LaTeX fonts, I am talking about the WEBMATH fonts
20:55:47 <alise> zzo38: I don't know ...
20:56:01 <alise> cpressey: Haha, they've just taken Ubuntu's Software Centre and taken the Ubuntu out of the name.
20:56:08 <zzo38> The typewriter symbols are the correct size
20:56:21 <alise> "Well, shit, we can't do better than that." "Just put it in the repositories..."
20:57:41 <alise> ehird is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
20:57:50 <alise> Oh yeah! We still use su and root passwords because this is the early 2000s!
20:58:32 <alise> Usually, root@localhost.
20:58:58 <alise> What the hell is /etc/shadow-?
20:59:04 <alise> /etc/shadow- Backup file for /etc/shadow.
20:59:05 <cpressey> Naughty single user! I'm telling the single user about you!
20:59:06 <Vorpal> <cpressey> If it is the honest brutal VGA console font, ♫ could actually map to a character. <-- ?? A note symbol?
20:59:16 <Sgeo> I never tried Empathy
20:59:25 <Sgeo> Which is surprising if it's some sort of default client
20:59:27 <fizzie> I am pretty sure that debian-installer's expert mode asks if you want to put in a password for root; if you don't, it creates a sudoers-allowed user account instead.
20:59:44 <zzo38> alise: I have still used "su" on some Linux computers, but not for root account. There are a few terminals which are public use, each one with its own account. To access files that I have created with a different account, I can use "su guest02" and stuff like that
20:59:56 <alise> Wow, aptitudes interface changed.
20:59:57 <cpressey> Vorpal: http://beacon.chebucto.ca/Back/A9908/img/vga_norm.gif
21:00:03 <alise> That ... is the first time that has ever happened.
21:00:26 <alise> cpressey: That's what it displayed as, yes.
21:00:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, should be 0x07 for the note symbol
21:00:31 <Vorpal> what with that being ASCII bell
21:00:53 <cpressey> Vorpal: Maybe you can go back to the late 80's before this was set in stone and tell them that!
21:01:02 <Sgeo> Headsets don't make good headphones
21:01:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, do you have a time machine handy?
21:01:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:01:40 <fizzie> On the other hand, the single-note character is at 0x0d, carriage return, and I've seen typewriters that ring a bell on carriage-return.
21:01:50 <Vorpal> if you had I would use it first to make them change ipv4 to use more than 32 bits.
21:01:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: 無 is what he meant to say.
21:02:23 <cpressey> I don't think they mapped THAT to the brutal vga font!
21:02:26 <zzo38> The CP437 character set was not designed so that the meaning of ASCII control codes would correspond to the graphics in those positions
21:03:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Shift Out", the character-set swapping thing.
21:03:53 <Sgeo> I might still have the time machine that I used to kill Elliott Hird somewhere
21:05:47 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
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21:06:01 <Vorpal> hm tricky to search for info on dwarf debugging info (a format used by linux for debug info, and *BSD too iirc). I tried adding ELF to the search but that didn't exactly help at all
21:06:11 <fizzie> Also, the good old broken bar instead of a |.
21:06:59 <fizzie> "specification" is often a very good word for searches like that. (Unless you want human-readable explanations, of course; but I tend to prefer the incomprehensible.)
21:07:42 <fizzie> Hey, it actually works.
21:07:51 <fizzie> "Introduction to the DWARF Debugging Format by Michael Eager (PDF)."
21:08:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me, or is Agda's standard library exactly what one would get if a bunch of 5-year-olds were asked to pick out Unicode symbols?
21:08:02 <fizzie> Well, that was nice. I was expecting... other things.
21:08:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wasn't looking for the spec. I was looking for some history about it.
21:08:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
21:08:25 <alise> fizzie: Dwarf/Elf STDs!
21:08:27 <alise> It's very dangerous.
21:08:47 <zzo38> I am trying to make the Enhanced CWEB can use the WEBMATH font, although I can include things for other Plain TeX documents as well, a little bit
21:09:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know of anything wrong with their coinduction apart from the syntax.
21:09:06 <zzo38> So that is I intend to have the typewriter control graphics and blackboard bold
21:09:06 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Is the snowman in there?
21:09:55 <Vorpal> even trickier, which was my first search is the toolkit dwarves. Trying to find official website for it is hopeless. If it even has one. It works on DWARF debugging info btw.
21:10:00 <alise> anyone know how to make gnome use sudo, not su?
21:10:24 <alise> "Web browser: [ Debian Sensible Browser ]"
21:10:36 <alise> NAME sensible-editor, sensible-pager, sensible-browser - sensible editing, paging, and web browsing
21:10:38 <Vorpal> all I found is a seemingly outdated git branch at kernel.org
21:10:47 <alise> Sensible Software are gonna sue!
21:10:51 <cpressey> alise: ... how do I make a nauseous-looking emoticon.. ?
21:10:56 <Sgeo> Sensible Software?
21:10:57 <Vorpal> alise, that name sounds familiar...
21:10:59 <alise> cpressey: Why nauseous?
21:11:03 <Vorpal> Sensible Software I mean
21:11:08 <alise> cpressey: They're just programs that open a reasonable program for the task. :P
21:11:12 <alise> Like x-www-browser.
21:11:15 <alise> Vorpal: they did Cannon Fodder
21:11:26 <cpressey> alise: Oh, if it's a shell/dispatcher thingy, that's not too bad.
21:11:27 <Vorpal> alise, doesn't ring a bell
21:11:28 <alise> and Sensible Soccer
21:11:35 <alise> and, uhh, apparently Sensible Golf
21:11:58 <cpressey> It's just such a distasteful word in my lexicon.
21:12:08 <alise> "Sensible Train Spotting is the world's first ever computerized train spotting simulator." gahahaha
21:12:10 <Vorpal> alise, oh right, one of the darwinia loading screens makes a reference to Sensible Software. That is where I heard it I think.
21:12:17 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
21:12:17 <cpressey> One could argue it's because I'm not at all sensible, I suppose...
21:12:49 <SgeoN1> Ms security essentials updates like locking up my computer
21:13:28 <SgeoN1> Microsoft's AV software
21:15:06 <zzo38> In weather today, the clouds disappeared, the oceans turned black, and giant zebra arrows rained violently down from space.
21:15:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:15:29 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, perhaps you could help SgeoN1's computer deal with locking up?
21:15:36 <Vorpal> zzo38, zebra arrows? Are they made out of zebras or zebra shaped or just zebra coloured?
21:15:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Why?
21:15:46 <Vorpal> or a combination of those?
21:16:03 <zzo38> Vorpal: I don't know
21:16:10 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:16:11 <SgeoN1> I thought PH was referring to your life situation until recently
21:16:17 <zzo38> But I think it means stripe black and white arrows
21:16:21 <Vorpal> zzo38, random text generator?
21:16:33 <zzo38> Vorpal: No. I found it in FORTUNE file
21:16:46 * cpressey shoots a zebra arrow at Phantom_Hoover
21:16:53 <cpressey> Hey, these things are pretty cool.
21:17:00 <fizzie> They could be just stripey.
21:17:46 * Phantom_Hoover shoots a concentrated ray of high-velocity deions at cpressey.
21:18:18 <cpressey> Apparently they are black-and-white striped arrows. And Ted Nugent has lent his name to a brand of them.
21:18:28 <cpressey> http://cgi.ebay.com/Ted-Nugent-Gold-Tip-5575-Carbon-Arrows-Raw-Shafts-1-Dz_W0QQitemZ400127495981QQcategoryZ20844QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%252BDDSIC%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D300393787162%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D5753594848568064443
21:18:33 <fizzie> Yes, but that ebay auction has ended!
21:18:45 <fizzie> You can still buy a "DIVA SPARKLE ZEBRA ARROW SIGN HANGING WALL ART PINK" though.
21:19:01 <fizzie> That's just a zebra-patterned arrow sign with "DIVA" in pink text on top.
21:19:04 <zzo38> Another thing from FORTUNE file: Circular logic is good because it is.
21:19:50 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: How do you know I'm not?
21:20:47 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, one of the noted effects of high-energy deions is severe brain damage, leading to an extreme case of fundamentalism.
21:20:58 <zzo38> Arrrrrr!!! sin theta. Polar coordinates are a pirate's best friend.
21:21:53 <zzo38> Fundamentalism is often illogical too. Jack Chick is Illogical Christianity.
21:22:16 <zzo38> Someone who follows Illogical Christianity, shall therefore be called Chicken.
21:23:12 <Vorpal> <zzo38> Arrrrrr!!! sin theta. Polar coordinates are a pirate's best friend. <-- is this the horrible pun I think it is....?
21:23:20 <Vorpal> no it can't possibly be that bad can it?
21:23:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Although a little nonsensical from a mathematical standpoint...
21:23:56 <cpressey> Does the "sin theta" part pun to something?
21:24:05 <Sgeo> Seems clear to me
21:24:30 <fizzie> It's the conversion from polar (r, theta) to cartesian y; I wouldn't call it "nonsensical", just a bit arbitrary.
21:24:52 <cpressey> Like if it was "avast ye" instead of "sin theta", I wouldn't be asking.
21:25:07 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, that's why he said "cartesian _y_"
21:25:22 <alise> the adm group means admin, right?
21:25:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:25:47 <cpressey> All this mucking about with pirate puns has summoned oerjan.
21:25:51 <oerjan> RIP hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no
21:25:53 <Vorpal> alise, why are you asking? I think it is there mostly for compat reasons and not really used any more
21:26:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm? what happened?
21:26:08 <Vorpal> what was hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no?
21:26:23 <alise> Vorpal: ok; I'll use the sudo group then
21:26:25 <oerjan> the nvg server i've been using for irc for years died
21:26:43 <fizzie> It probably does have "adm"inistrationary connotations, but it's anyone's guess if your system uses it for anything.
21:26:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, you didn't use a bouncer?
21:26:56 <oerjan> also, long live sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no
21:27:02 <Vorpal> or any sort of persistent connection
21:27:16 <oerjan> you didn't notice me being absent?
21:27:17 <fizzie> I don't think Debian's /etc/sudoers by default even does the "sudo" group, but it's there commented-out.
21:27:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, I noticed you not staying connected while sleeping before
21:27:33 <Vorpal> if that is what you mean
21:27:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, so why are you using a server for the irc client then
21:27:53 <alise> fizzie: without uncommenting
21:28:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: old habits, also my laptop is windows while the server is linux and has irssi
21:29:20 <Vorpal> Fix buffer expansion bug, detected thanks to boost that provided things like:
21:29:20 <Vorpal> virtual int undefine(class grammar_helper<boost::spirit::grammar<boost::detail::graph::dot_skipper, boost::spirit::parser_context<boost::spirit::nil, class grammar<boost::detail::graph::dot_skipper, boost::spirit::parser_context<boost::spirit::nil_t> > *); /* linkage=_ZN5boost6spirit4impl14grammar_helperINS0_7grammarINS_6detail5graph11dot_skipperENS0_14parser_contextINS0_5nil_tEEEEES6_NS0_7scann
21:29:20 <Vorpal> erINS0_10multi_passISt16istream_i */
21:29:25 <oklopol> why do i have this crazy recollection that fizzie said he puts a space after his messages
21:29:26 <oerjan> also the server has my email
21:29:37 <Vorpal> thats from a changelog for dwarves
21:29:40 <fizzie> oklopol: Only after messages that end with a ? mark.
21:30:08 <alise> you know, unicode shows as a . to oerjan.
21:31:34 <fizzie> oklopol: For the record, the space was to avoid the "answers all lines that end in a ?" babble-bot.
21:32:12 <fizzie> fungot: Here's a tip if you ever want to be really annoying: try to answer something nonsensical whenever someone asks any question whatsoever, even if you have no idea what it means.
21:32:14 <fungot> fizzie: table 2? 16. this affection,/ organ, in exactly/ same manner, and quite believe you that you are so inclined, i should think at least 2000 feet thick, :) brown argillaceous limestone, in parts :)/ world, by/ heaping up :)/ amount :) work that he accomplished was gigantic and :)/ foul smell which came from them.
21:32:24 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: also, occasionally, and occasionally cursed
21:32:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin* discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
21:32:33 <Sgeo> fungot, I want to have your babies
21:32:34 <fungot> Sgeo: it would appear that there was much greenish-brown pulpy matter. this must be associated with some purplish claystone porphyry, greenstone porphyry, attains a great thickness :) red sandstone; and above this a coarser fnord a total thickness :) these three archipelagoes, all/ forms :)/ same division :)/ system, rather than betray his comrades, would be much aided.
21:32:40 <fizzie> Darwin just keeps on smiling.
21:33:43 -!- Jonty has joined.
21:35:20 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: not much
21:35:40 <fizzie> oerjan: If somebody told you to sit on an altar, would there be an amber flash?
21:35:52 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, damn, I must be aiming at the wrong bit of Norway.
21:35:57 <oerjan> i'm not sure of the exact placement of the server, but i assume it's on NTNU's Gløshaugen campus
21:36:16 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
21:36:22 <oerjan> also i'm only in the same city
21:36:36 <oerjan> fizzie: how the heck should i know
21:36:43 <fizzie> http://www.mic-journal.no/ifac/pics/gloshaugen.jpg -- impressive-looking thing.
21:36:59 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Quit: ...).
21:37:37 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'm not particularly christian so that may not work much
21:38:36 <oerjan> fizzie: also why are you giving fungot advice on what he's already a world expert on...
21:38:37 <fungot> oerjan: many carnivorous animals, can doubt that/ sterility is usually much reduced in length, on/ employment :) a man, as good fnord, and evergreen. " 10? 169. ( gardener's chronicle' 1842 page fnord 1855 page 646. in/ autumn my whole time was devoted to shooting chiefly at mr. farrer's notes.
21:38:56 <fizzie> A man, as good fnord, and evergreen.
21:39:04 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:39:08 <cpressey> Darwin was apparently psychotic a good deal of the time.
21:39:20 <fizzie> Yeah, spending a whole autumn just shooting at someone's notes.
21:39:23 <Sgeo> fungot, make love with me!
21:39:24 <fungot> Sgeo: charles darwin to j.d. hooker. down, october 25th, 1881.) nothing can be inferred with certainty from/ following peculiarities :) structure. but as for showing your satisfaction in confounding my experiments, as well as/ so-called haematin used by me, a plausible explanation is afforded :)/ leading phenomena connected with/ act :) display, by/ conditions, and if so what flowers ' :( entomological weekly intelligencer", 18
21:39:42 <Sgeo> fungot is a BORING thing
21:39:42 <fungot> Sgeo: bloom-experiments on. -sleep-movements :) cotyledons. -p. gracilis, dispersal :) seeds.
21:39:54 <oerjan> cpressey: i've read that about Jung, not so much Darwin...
21:39:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like a laser, except with Eucharist instead of a flash tube and pictures of Dawkins instead of mirrors.
21:40:19 <cpressey> oerjan: we tried feeding Jung to fungot, but he couldn't keep him down.
21:40:20 <fungot> cpressey: on an egyptian monument. -crosses :). fnord :) fnord would be very good guides as to what to get; but fnord :) moscow, who travelled over europe to see all this.
21:42:15 <oerjan> fizzie: that's the "Hovedbygget" ("Main building"), it's only a small part of the campus though, on the front towards the city. there is also Sentralbygget behind it, with two twin tower skyscrapers.
21:42:26 <oerjan> and many other buildings.
21:42:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: as i pointed out, i'm not actually there, just in the same city
21:45:01 <oerjan> cpressey: i saw in the logs you asked about > binary operations, i know at least one called "median algebras", me and Rustad tried to publish an article connected to them but iirc it was rejected twice so we stopped. presumably it seemed too trivial.
21:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> And in any case, deions repel each other, so the beam spreads out over long distances.
21:45:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Although this could end up fundamentalising all of Gløshaugen.
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21:46:37 <cpressey> oerjan: I never liked that "trivial" things are rejected by academia :(
21:46:51 <alise> lament: that's okay; as far as I'm aware, he doesn't exist.
21:47:24 <oerjan> median algebras have one ternary operation. it's inspired by the usual median operation of 3 numbers (and in a certain technical sense all the algebras are generated by just the {0,1} version, which is similar to how it is with boolean algebras)
21:48:03 <alise> none of us can ever be happy without salt
21:48:11 <oerjan> cpressey: i guess we could have got it accepted by aiming lower with the journal, if we'd bothered
21:48:32 <alise> cpressey: eat this rock I?
21:49:07 <alise> DON'T COME CRYING TO ME WHEN IRRIGATION IS ILLEGAL
21:49:14 <zzo38> There is no eat rocks in here
21:49:16 <alise> cpressey: What do you think of BeOS?
21:49:30 <cpressey> oerjan: the only reason i was even going there is because passing a named argument to a function is (in the sense i'm interested in) ternary: function x name x value.
21:50:16 <oerjan> cpressey: incidentally if you are familiar with the 2-SAT problem (analogous to 3-SAT and higher, but in P), the solutions to a 2-SAT problem form a median algebra
21:50:46 <alise> cpressey: said like a true cardigan
21:51:04 <alise> I have eyes ... everywhere.
21:52:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: one more than you should be.
21:54:03 <alise> Portcullis of EVIL
21:54:57 <oerjan> cpressey: there are of course heaps of obscure kinds of algebras if one wants to look for them
21:55:18 <cpressey> "is it an algebra?" is an uninteresting question
21:55:29 <cpressey> "does it look like an algebra other people care about?" is closer
21:55:46 <cpressey> still might not be interesting, since other people are just other people
21:56:34 <alise> PolicyKit is an obviously great idea done in a way that makes me want to cry.
21:58:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: getting it to ask you for your own password, assuming you're in a given group, to authenticate (like sudo), rather than asking for root's password, is a difficult task.
21:58:54 <alise> for one, they seem to have an XML configuration file that does exactly the same thing as a non-XML directory of configuration files, but they may have removed the former as of very recently
21:58:58 <alise> and it's not clear what you have to do
22:02:10 <alise> i may just install ubuntu
22:02:38 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_algebra ah, majority functions, yes...
22:02:55 <Sgeo> There used to be a time that I'd save every dilbert strip on the site to disk
22:03:42 * oerjan also recalls an operation with the property m(x,x,y) = y = m(y,x,x) for all x,y was important in the theory of algebras (a variety of algebras has commuting congruences iff it has a (possibly derived) operation with that property)
22:04:15 <oerjan> for groups m(x,y,z) = x y^-1 z has that property
22:04:32 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:04:40 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhh8Ao4yweQ Don Knuth, student mathematician, used an electronic computer to evaluate each player's performance. He was 20. From 1958.
22:05:56 <Sgeo> I love the Torley music!
22:07:48 <alise> i wonder what binary boolean function makes (a&b)|(a&c)|(b&c) simpler
22:08:49 <Gregor> An electronic computer! WOWSA
22:08:54 <Gregor> WELCOME - TO - THE - FUTURE
22:09:01 <Sgeo> Any two out of 3
22:09:08 <Sgeo> How would that be a binary function?
22:09:37 <pikhq> Sgeo: I think you want bitwise not.
22:09:50 <alise> I mean, how can you add binary functions to make that trinary function simpler to express?
22:09:59 <alise> (the function being, "are the majority of arguments true?")
22:10:33 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1996-01-23/
22:11:14 <alise> oerjan: cool. that isn't adding a new function, though :-)
22:11:23 <alise> also, is that (a&...)|(...) or a&(...|...)?
22:11:32 <Sgeo> pikhq, s/^/S/ ?
22:12:14 <oerjan> & has higher precedence than | in my intuition
22:12:14 <alise> Sgeo: Okay, /why/ has he got his tie-erection?
22:12:32 <alise> oerjan: i always forget which way around higher/lower precedence goes
22:12:34 <Sgeo> There was a strip where his tie was down
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22:12:44 <oerjan> alise: it's just collecting the first two terms in your expression
22:13:05 <alise> *oh, the knuth one
22:13:07 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1991-05-10/ (not the strip with the tie down)
22:13:09 <alise> Sgeo: Scott Adams does it on purpose
22:13:21 <alise> for the Freudian meaning
22:13:30 <alise> perhaps only as of late, though
22:13:44 <Sgeo> Only as of late for the Fruedian meaning?
22:13:50 <alise> yes, quite possibly
22:13:55 <Sgeo> Dilbert's tie has been like that since um
22:13:56 <alise> since that strip seems to imply it's always up in older strips
22:14:30 <alise> In nearly every strip, Dilbert's tie is curved upward. While Scott Adams, the creator of the Dilbert comic strip, has offered no definitive explanation for this, he has explained the tie at least as a further example of Dilbert's lack of power over his environment. A second explanation given by Adams in the Dilbert FAQ is that "he is just glad to see you". Adams has also hinted that the tie may be displaying an aversion to him. Additionally, in Seven Years
22:14:30 <alise> of Highly Defective People, Adams wrote: "Many readers asked me to allow Dilbert to lose his innocence with Liz, so to speak. But I didn't see any way I could do that in a comic strip and get it past the editors. So I developed a secret sign. I told the people who receive the Dilbert newsletter that if Dilbert ever got lucky with Liz, I would draw his normally upturned necktie flat one day." The flat-necktie strip was printed on August 9, 1994, in which Dog
22:14:32 <alise> bert suspected that Dilbert had gotten lucky; ironically, the tie was shown flattened after Liz stated she didn't believe in fornication (Dogbert wondered if Dilbert, who was acting oddly serene, had discovered religion; Dilbert said he "thought he was Unitarian").[4] In another strip, Dilbert met Antina, an overly masculine female coworker who caused his tie to flatten and point downward, strengthening the idea of the tie being a phallic symbol[citation ne
22:14:37 <alise> eded] (Adams himself has said that he does not know what it means). Sometimes when Dilbert is surprised, scared, or has been beaten up, his tie goes straight. A series once went on about his tie, during which Dogbert attempts to find out. He tries having Ratbert eat one of the ties, theorizes that it has an aversion to him, and eventually gave up after a discussion with the garbageman.
22:14:45 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1994-08-09/
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22:20:56 <alise> Is it just me, or does Debian always seem like a pre-alpha version of Ubuntu with all the branding removed?
22:22:07 <fizzie> Depends on what your "always" means, perhaps. Certainly it wasn't like that earlier.
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22:22:58 <alise> fizzie: well, certainly at least for a year or so
22:23:23 <fizzie> Possibly, maybe. I haven't really been following Debian on Desktop lately.
22:23:32 <alise> I thought you used it.
22:23:35 <Vorpal> since always refers to an infinite period of time
22:23:41 <Vorpal> and alise now defined always as one year
22:23:59 <Vorpal> that means, the following year will last forever
22:25:06 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:25:32 -!- FireFly has joined.
22:25:45 <alise> Or maybe fizzie uses Debian on desktop with his eyes closed, so he doesn't inadvertently see changes.
22:26:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:26:21 <alise> I wouldn't mind Ubuntu at all, really; just the audio thing.
22:26:40 <fizzie> alise: I *think* I've been an Ubuntist on this workstation-box for at least a year now, but I might be wrong. Still Debian everywhere else. Can't say I noticed any heavy "Ubuntu -> Debian" borrowing going on, but I might just be unobservant.
22:27:00 <alise> fizzie: Oh, I'm not saying they literally borrow things; just that nothing seems to stick together properly.
22:27:20 <alise> It's ... unpolished, which makes you wonder what the hell their patches do.
22:27:50 <alise> fizzie: Oh, and they've taken Ubuntu Software Centre wholesale, renamed it Software Centre, and stuck it in System → Administration.
22:28:06 <alise> Conclusion: Debian on the desktop - not compelling.
22:28:18 <fizzie> Can't say I noticed that especially well either, but then again I might not be quite using anything that should "stick together". I mean, I had X, and distinct programs in there, and did most of the stuff in a terminal. It's hard to screw *that* up.
22:28:19 <alise> Haha! It still says Ubuntu Software Centre in the manual.
22:28:23 <alise> Oh testing, how little you try.
22:28:41 <alise> fizzie: Well, the administration programs with their authentication and whatnot.
22:29:06 <fizzie> Don't know, I haven't seen any authorization prompts anywhere.
22:29:39 <alise> I just wish Ubuntu/Flash worked properly with AV sync.
22:29:49 <alise> Ubuntu/Flash/OSSv4 works, but Ubuntu has zero OSS support.
22:30:08 <alise> Gregor: Here, you use sidux. Is the integration any better?
22:30:15 <cpressey> Rebranding open-source software, now there's a vocation.
22:30:30 <Gregor> alise: With OSS? Screw OSS :P
22:31:06 * Sgeo leaves gmail open so he can receive calls
22:31:09 <alise> Gregor: Not OSS, no.
22:31:16 <alise> Gregor: Although OSSv4 is fucking awesome.
22:31:34 <cpressey> anyone here know autoconf and friends?
22:31:40 <alise> It's like ALSA except without all the crap, lots of fancy stuff, and excellent latency.
22:31:49 <alise> cpressey: TURN BACK! TURN BACK! DARKNESS WILL ENVELOP YOU!
22:31:59 <alise> Gregor: I mean with the desktop environment. For instance: PolicyKit. Can I make everything just work sudo-style?
22:32:17 <cpressey> alise: Oh, I wasn't asking for *that* reason.
22:32:27 <Gregor> alise: It's Debian. You go console. For everything. That's how I roll.
22:32:35 <cpressey> I was seeing who here was just that mental.
22:32:41 <alise> Gregor: So, are you running X11 right now?
22:33:09 <Gregor> alise: Yes, yes I am :P
22:33:20 <alise> Gregor: And are you running KDE?
22:33:30 <alise> Gregor: You sure as hell used to.
22:33:47 <alise> I wonder how one actually *sucks* arse.
22:34:25 <fizzie> A straw may be involved.
22:34:34 <alise> It doesn't sound particularly erotic.
22:34:55 <Gregor> KDE4 is not an erotic desktop environment.
22:35:02 <fizzie> Well, you know, to each his/her/its own.
22:36:37 <fizzie> There used to be man pages for "sex" and "lsd" and some third thing like that on some system, I forget which.
22:37:33 <fizzie> Examples of both seem to still be in the interwebs. Also, man 1 lsd has a non sequitur "The output device is assumed to be 80 columns wide." at the end.
22:39:23 -!- nooga has joined.
22:39:24 <oerjan> non sequitur? i hardly know her!
22:39:26 <oklopol> erm you suck arse by applying suction to it with your mouth
22:39:53 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-04-02/
22:40:00 <oklopol> only a weirdo would think that's not erotic
22:40:01 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what pre-Dust Puppy UF was like
22:40:19 <fizzie> Sgeo: Why not link to the more human-friendly http://dilbert.com/fast/2008-04-02/ instead?
22:40:30 <Sgeo> fizzie, laziness?
22:40:34 <Sgeo> Forgetfullness?
22:41:07 <fizzie> But it's just a string substitution. You must really be the lazy.
22:41:46 <alise> Sgeo: exactly like it is now
22:41:51 <Sgeo> I forgot that some people might prefer it
22:41:54 <alise> "/etc/trips is a log of system-wide use of lsd since booting." ;; that's non-FHS, sheesh!
22:41:59 <cpressey> the 'fast' url seems to go to *today*'s strip
22:42:04 <alise> cpressey: does not
22:42:19 <cpressey> no... my browser is insane, is all
22:42:22 <alise> Sgeo: every human prefers it.
22:42:30 <alise> oerjan: file hierarchy standard
22:42:34 <alise> in the lsd(1) manpage
22:42:39 * Sgeo likes reading the comments
22:42:42 <cpressey> no... i got the url wrong and it seems to assume i want today's strip
22:42:59 <cpressey> see, that is why you be lazy for strin substitutions. easy to fail.
22:43:12 <fizzie> Isn't it file*system* hierarchy whatevers? (Pick, pick, pick the nit.)
22:44:11 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:44:43 <cpressey> http://dilbert.com/strips/sojdohehisnbond/
22:46:13 <fizzie> The non-fast versions seems to have gotten more sensible, though. Wasn't it completely flash-driven at some point?
22:47:00 <fizzie> Now it seems to work without scripts and everything, it's just a bit more graphically intensive and so on.
22:48:54 <cpressey> If there's anything sweeter than recursive make it's gotta be recursive configure.
22:48:58 <nooga> i always imagine alise as dogbert
22:50:25 <fizzie> (I must've meant autoconf or autoreconf or something; I can't even recall what autogen exactly does.)
22:51:57 <cpressey> Maybe autogen could be the busybox of the auto* tools. It's a single script that does everything depending on what it's called
22:52:10 <alise> autogen regenerates configure, iirc
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22:53:05 <cpressey> well it's done now at least, but ff is still greyed out
22:53:17 <nooga> cpressey would be someone like Moss from IT Crowd
22:53:58 <nooga> cpressey: http://cutr.pl/0f72992d5f
22:54:25 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/fast/2004-01-29/ angry Asok is awesome
22:55:22 <nooga> fizzie -> http://www.eaea.org/uploadkuvat/eaea/johanni08.JPG
22:55:40 <cpressey> nooga: i'm not sure what to think of that
22:56:04 <nooga> please do not be offended
22:56:44 <alise> <nooga> cpressey would be someone like Moss from IT Crowd ;; naw
22:56:51 <alise> cpressey's too chilled
22:57:11 <Gregor> I apparently don't have a picture :P
22:57:17 <alise> <nooga> fizzie -> http://www.eaea.org/uploadkuvat/eaea/johanni08.JPG ;; I don't see the beard
22:57:21 <alise> Gregor: You look like Gregor
22:57:28 <alise> i didn't even read nooga's line
22:57:34 <nooga> Gregor: https://codu.org/hats.php
22:57:39 <alise> Gregor is the only self-representing person in here
22:58:03 <Gregor> Yup. I'm me. And cpressey is actually named Bob Farber and ais is actually Chuck Melontoast.
22:58:27 <alise> oh, ais is ais too
22:58:57 <alise> nooga i basically imagine as a polish window-cleaner except with his hand on his chin, pondering
22:59:47 <alise> oerjan looks like this: http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/thumb/c/c1/200px-Edsger_Dijkstra_large.jpg
22:59:58 <alise> and with a less-jutting-out chin
23:00:12 <alise> and he speaks with his mouth always slightly wider than most people would
23:00:28 <nooga> 23:59 < alise> oerjan looks like this: ...
23:00:50 <alise> our personification algorithms are incredibly similar.
23:00:53 <Gregor> Argh uploading so slow.
23:01:03 <oerjan> alise: i think that's about as far from me you can get and still have a white male
23:01:06 <fizzie> alise: I do am a bit beardy. There was a recent-ish photo somewhere, but I seem to have misplaced it. (Maybe that's a good thing.)
23:01:23 <alise> A lot of people do am a bit beardy.
23:01:30 <nooga> alise: hmmm, well, i guess all englishmen have quite simmilar image of polish ppl :F
23:01:43 <alise> nooga: i was joking
23:01:43 <fizzie> oerjan: You must be confused: the picture looks somehow oerjany. Are you sure you know what you look like?
23:01:53 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/fast/2002-09-23/
23:01:56 <nooga> then CTO http://cutr.pl/bbdb2f7187
23:02:07 <alise> See, we all match oerjan's personality with that picture of Dijkstra!
23:02:23 <alise> nooga: is that you?
23:02:24 <oerjan> fizzie: well i'm blond, don't have glasses, am always clean shaven, and haven't worn a tie in years.
23:02:30 <alise> that doesn't look like how you look at all.
23:03:01 <alise> "64-bit - Not recommended for daily desktop usage"
23:03:04 <alise> why does Ubuntu say that, I wonder...
23:03:05 <nooga> the photo was taken in a museum, in Edinburgh
23:03:38 <Gregor> I'm blond, don't have glasses, am rarely clean shaven but still have no facial hair, and wear a tie frequently!
23:03:57 <alise> fuck ubuntu's download page
23:04:01 <alise> it doesn't let you copy a link
23:04:12 <cpressey> alise: first guess: not too stable. (But then -- continual *server* usage would be a better fit? uh...)
23:04:32 <cpressey> < alise> "64-bit - Not recommended for daily desktop usage"
23:04:51 <alise> it just doesn't support flash without a sucky wrapper, but flash sucks on linux anyway
23:05:01 <alise> and the wrapper is auto-installed
23:05:40 <alise> ubuntu-10.04.1-desktop-amd64.metalink
23:05:45 <alise> time to go beyond my maximum connection speed
23:06:23 <nooga> oerjan -> http://cutr.pl/6960e3c6aa
23:06:25 <fizzie> There used to be Skype issues on 64-bit linux, but I guess that might be outdated information too.
23:06:36 <nooga> aww, no glasses, right
23:08:02 <alise> http://cutr.pl/6960e3c6aa ;; not oerjan :P
23:08:23 <alise> 900 KiB/s, oh yeah.
23:08:30 <alise> On an 800-and-a-bit KiB/s connection.
23:09:08 <alise> aria2 downloads from five bajillion HTTP servers simultaneously as well as bittorrent with DHT
23:09:10 <nooga> i've got 1.6MiB atm
23:09:21 <alise> with an appropriate metalink file to specify them all
23:09:24 <Vorpal> <cpressey> < alise> "64-bit - Not recommended for daily desktop usage" <-- where does it say that
23:09:32 <alise> result: your connection gets faster than your top speed with e.g. HTTP
23:09:34 <alise> Vorpal: on the download page
23:09:42 <Vorpal> alise, download page for debian?
23:09:44 <Vorpal> 64-bit linux works very well for desktops these days
23:09:54 <oerjan> Gregor: i think my hair is somewhat lighter than yours
23:10:09 <Vorpal> alise, there is of course every now and then the flash issue. But that's all.
23:10:13 <Gregor> My hair is about as dark as it gets while still being pseudo-reasonable to call it "blond"
23:10:56 <Vorpal> hm comparing hair colours?
23:11:08 <Vorpal> I beat you both: my hair is dark brown
23:11:18 <nooga> i've got read beard!
23:11:19 <alise> dark enough brown that most people think it's black.
23:11:21 <Gregor> Vorpal: Hair LIGHTNESS is the winning condition :P
23:11:26 <Gregor> nooga: I'll read your beard.
23:11:59 <fizzie> Is this the "have a bucket of red paint, then ask 'do you want your beard read?'" joke?
23:12:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, for some reason my beard is a lighter brown than the hair on the top of my head
23:12:45 <Gregor> Vorpal: I have a friend with brown hair on his head and red/orange facial hair.
23:13:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, #f00 isn't enough to describe it. It is so red it lies outside sRGB
23:13:43 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's so red that the surrounding environment looks grey due to the cones in your eyes burning out.
23:13:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, I believe Adobe Wide Gamut covers it
23:14:37 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Gamut_RGB_color_space
23:16:21 <Vorpal> what do you mean by that
23:17:30 <fizzie> Single wavelength (let's say 700 nm, that's stereotypically red) reflected, won't get very much redder than that.
23:17:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, lies outside of sRGB I presume?
23:18:23 <Vorpal> cpressey, so the light reflected from it is coherent?
23:19:06 <fizzie> It's seems that the wide gamut RGB red primary is pretty much that.
23:19:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, I want a wide gamut display. With 16-bit per channel or better of course
23:20:03 <Vorpal> and a GPU that supports that
23:20:12 <nooga> i can't drive to the gas station to buy some cola to drink vodka with that cola
23:20:21 * oerjan would generally expect the primary colors of RGB to be pure spectral...
23:20:35 <Vorpal> and why would anyone mix cola with vodka?
23:20:52 <nooga> vodka first and then cola
23:20:55 <Vorpal> well, why would anyone drink vodka at all
23:21:10 <nooga> i feel completely sober, but who knows
23:21:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, um RGB is not a precise word in this context. Do you mean sRGB?
23:21:51 <Vorpal> nooga, solution: don't drink alcohol. Then you can drive whenever you want. :P
23:21:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:21:58 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm making an argument from ignorance here, so obviously i don't have a clue about that
23:22:06 <nooga> i can walk to that station, it's just 300m
23:22:17 <Vorpal> nooga, OR avoid alcohol :P
23:22:38 <fizzie> On the other hand, possibly (with advanced enough fake-science) you could have some sort of hair that does *very* accurate eye-tracking, and reflects photons aimed at the three (or four, for some people) different types of cone cells in the proper proportion to get the color that (according to subjective tests) is perceived the most "red" by a large sample of viewers.
23:23:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh is this one of those "imaginary" colours?
23:23:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: With fake-science, anything's possible!
23:23:52 <fizzie> Nothing imaginary about this one, though.
23:24:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, couldn't you just paint it in such a colour
23:24:19 <Vorpal> avoiding the need for eye tracking
23:25:07 <oklopol> Vorpal: have you been drunk?
23:25:08 <fizzie> It's not so easy; even with a single-wavelength color, you still get responses from all three types of cone cells, just at different levels. But if you direct your photons directly at them, you can put out any sort of distribution you want.
23:25:27 <oklopol> and you wonder why people do it?
23:25:41 <oklopol> that's like asking people why they've ever opened their eyes when they have a perfectly good hearing
23:25:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, likely not practically possible?
23:26:24 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: National Museum of Scotland
23:26:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, not practically possible now. Might be easier to just hook into the optic nerve anyway, instead of trying to aim at the cones.
23:27:50 <fizzie> Incidentally, it *would* be interesting to see what it would look like if you'd somehow get something that causes only a single cone cell type to respond.
23:27:50 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: April
23:28:20 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, so after they closed all the cool bits for renovation?
23:29:08 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, that's kind of possible with those weird little afterimages you get.
23:29:36 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: yep, I can remember that there was a renovation then
23:29:56 <fizzie> "Photobleaching can be used to determine cone arrangement. This is done by exposing dark-adapted retina to a certain wavelength of light that paralyzes the particular type of cone sensitive to that wavelength for up to thirty minutes from being able to dark-adapt making it appear white in contrast to the grey dark-adapted cones when a picture of the retina is taken." Heh, they do the strangest stuff.
23:30:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect the cool bits will not be cool once they finish with it.
23:31:08 <nooga> i used all of the interactive contraptions for kids
23:32:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does it look like for the person in question
23:33:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, that was subjected to it
23:33:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: The abstract doesn't say, and they might even not have asked.
23:34:07 <fizzie> "To read this story in full you will need to login or make a payment (see right)."
23:34:47 <fizzie> Heh, adding the university proxy worked again. Still, I doubt they asked for subjective things there.
23:34:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, this looks extremely different: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photobleaching
23:37:57 <fizzie> The article talks about "bleaching"; I don't know enough on how the cells in the eye work to be able to guess if it's the same process or not.
23:40:41 * Phantom_Hoover ponders on the practical applications of god-flesh manipulation
23:41:03 <fizzie> "What are the implications of this arrangement for vision? The coarse grain of the cone submosaics causes fluctuations in the colour appearance of tiny, monochromatic light flashes because the relative excitation of different cone classes depends on the location of the flash. A related illusion is Brewster's colours, the perception of irregular patches of pastel colour while viewing periodic black and white patterns of high spatial frequency. Similarly, red-gre
23:41:04 <fizzie> en isoluminant gratings with spatial frequencies above the resolution limit look like chromatic and luminant spatial noise."
23:41:13 <fizzie> Heh, the eye's just a badly designed digital camera.
23:42:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "Hey Jesus, where'd you put those nice plans for the eye we used for squids?" "Damn, I lost them. Ah, just throw in any old crap."
23:46:50 <fizzie> Their main point seems to be that the two longer-wavelength cells aren't randomly splattered here and there, but instead occur in contiguous-ish clumps; "Although the existence of these patches indicates that the trichromat may sometimes misjudge the colour appearance of tiny objects, the patches will be beneficial in recovering high-frequency luminance patterns, because cortical neurons tuned to high spatial frequency are more likely to be fed by contiguous co
23:46:50 <fizzie> nes of the same class."
23:47:47 <fizzie> Sooner or later I'm sure we'll be replacing the boring old eyes with all sorts of augmentations.
23:47:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, maybe I could make a deion transfer network and give everyone a constant supply of holiness!
23:53:53 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/blog/entry/shape_shifters/
00:02:14 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Heh, the eye's just a badly designed digital camera. <-- a LOT of MP though
00:04:52 <nooga> and it's rather analog than digital
00:05:14 <nooga> + nice FOV and extremely fast AF
00:05:27 <nooga> fair dynamic range, also
00:08:11 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:08:27 <fizzie> 576 megapixels, according to some back-of-the-envelope calculations in the internet. (That was based on 120/60 degree H/V-FOV and the maximum acuity, so it does sort-of mean taking multiple "shots".)
00:08:51 <Vorpal> nooga, slow changing the stopping though
00:08:58 <Vorpal> or perhaps changing the ISO
00:09:20 <Vorpal> but when it gets there it is good at that level
00:09:51 <Vorpal> it just takes ages to change from f11 1/2000 ISO64 to f3.5 1/2 ISO800
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00:11:50 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of difference in the luma/chroma resolution, what with only about 5 % of the retinal cells being color-sensitive.
00:11:58 <nooga> pupil reacts quite fast
00:12:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, more around "straight ahead" iirc?
00:12:27 <nooga> i've got funny illness
00:12:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, and the resolution goes way down out towards the edges
00:12:51 <nooga> sometimes, my left eye breaks
00:13:03 <Vorpal> I mean, you can't read anything not straight ahead
00:13:15 <oklopol> also didn't you get glass in your eye
00:13:32 <Vorpal> nooga, doctor right away!
00:13:33 <nooga> no, because it's completely healthy from the optical point fo view
00:14:13 <nooga> he said it's a problem with optical nerve bandwith
00:14:25 <nooga> and it looks just like it
00:14:54 <nooga> first, the colors start to dim, and it's like changing color depth in a computer display
00:14:59 <nooga> then everything is gray
00:15:16 <nooga> and then i can see only contours and movement
00:15:41 <nooga> and then just static, like in TV, but really hi-res
00:15:55 <Vorpal> nooga, um and what triggers it?
00:16:15 <nooga> after 3-5 minutes everything is back to normal
00:16:25 <Vorpal> nooga, also I doubt that you should drive if you get such things
00:16:33 <nooga> oh, it happens rarely
00:16:33 <Vorpal> it sounds dangerous combined with driving
00:16:49 <nooga> never had that when driving
00:16:55 <nooga> and it's just one eye :D
00:17:13 <nooga> so i would have time to stop by the road and wait
00:17:14 <Vorpal> nooga, that stills removes some 80° or such of your view field
00:17:42 <Vorpal> nooga, on a freeway or such?
00:17:48 <Vorpal> nooga, would be tricky
00:17:55 <nooga> there are no FREEWAYS in Poland :P
00:18:06 <oklopol> yeah poland is a fucking desert
00:18:14 <fizzie> There's just PRISONWAYS.
00:18:26 <nooga> ok, there are, but only a few
00:18:28 <Vorpal> nooga, weren't you driving in Sweden or something some year(s) ago?
00:18:31 <fizzie> I would guess they let one-eyed people drive, though.
00:18:46 <Vorpal> nooga, and we have E4, E6, E18, E20 and so on
00:18:50 <oklopol> nooga: seriously, didn't you get glass in your eye
00:19:10 <nooga> Vorpal: true, i've been there, 110km/h
00:19:18 <fizzie> 120 km/h on freeways here, at least in the summer.
00:19:36 <Vorpal> nooga, there something like that eye issue would possibly be fatal
00:19:37 <oklopol> yeah but you can go faster if you're badass
00:19:53 <nooga> Vorpal: in what sense?
00:20:05 <oklopol> Vorpal: don't say driving too fast is bad for you if you haven't tried it
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00:20:26 <Vorpal> nooga, well, also hard to stop along the side of the road
00:20:37 <nooga> not in sweden, because you meet 5 cars on the freeway, during whole day
00:20:47 <Vorpal> nooga, um not my experience
00:20:53 <Vorpal> nooga, depends on where though I guess
00:21:16 <nooga> i get this effect rare and i know when it starts
00:21:34 <Vorpal> nooga, near Gothenburg or Stockholm the chances are you will be stuck in queues. Around where I live you don't get queues but the traffic can be quite intense
00:21:38 <nooga> i've got 2-3 minutes to react
00:21:41 <oklopol> driving a car sounds scary, i doubt i'll ever do it
00:21:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean by that?
00:22:03 <Vorpal> oklopol, you don't have a driving license?
00:22:37 <oklopol> i prefer not doing things that are deadly
00:22:41 <fizzie> We had this tiny little Fiat whatever that couldn't really go fast, and we had it on a trip to Germany; everyone was going past so fast it was sometimes hard to say whether we were moving at all.
00:22:54 <fizzie> oklopol: Yet you do math!
00:23:06 <oklopol> and suddenly you fall asleep or start watching a movie
00:23:10 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScRGB <-- what a silly colour space
00:23:27 <nooga> 250km/h is doable on bumpy polish roads
00:23:34 <nooga> and i'm still alive
00:23:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: Noticed that from your earlier link. It *is* silly.
00:23:40 <oklopol> fizzie: didn't i mention i'm switching to bartending because math is too hard
00:23:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, this one I didn't link before
00:23:54 <nooga> Vorpal: but when i was in swe i tried not to speed
00:24:00 <nooga> in fact, i didn't speed at all
00:24:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, I didn't link it before that
00:24:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, but it was in the bottom table of colorspaces in your other link.
00:24:45 <nooga> + check out the crazy finns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5NEnwp13g4
00:26:42 <fizzie> There's not so much to do around here, we have to compensate with stuff like that.
00:28:51 <Vorpal> nooga, how did they manage to survive that
00:29:12 <nooga> Vorpal: their cars have some mods to make them "deathproof"
00:29:32 <alise> <Vorpal> nooga, solution: don't drink alcohol. Then you can drive whenever you want. :P ;; yes, drive on cocaine instead
00:29:41 <nooga> like cages, 4-point seatbealts and stuff
00:29:48 <Vorpal> alise, :D though I didn't say that
00:30:05 <Vorpal> nooga, why don't all cars have that as standard I wonder
00:30:10 <Vorpal> would make driving safer
00:30:17 <nooga> because it takes too much space
00:30:28 <nooga> Volvo aims to be deathproof
00:30:48 <Vorpal> all basically crash the same way it seems
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00:31:06 <Vorpal> I mean, no frontal crash against a brick wall
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00:31:16 <fizzie> Deathproof; they'll refund the price if you die, though of course only if you personally visit the dealer.
00:31:33 <Vorpal> also the G-forces would be rather nasty
00:31:39 -!- relet has joined.
00:32:03 <Ilari> Aren't there two major problems with 4-point seatbelts: 1) Submarining (with poorly-designed belts) and 2) Neck loads on crash?
00:32:06 <fizzie> I don't think they tend to put brick walls in the middle of racing tracks.
00:33:00 <fizzie> oklopol: Those boats that go underwater.
00:33:29 <Vorpal> also how many cars are there
00:33:39 <alise> <fizzie> The article talks about "bleaching"; I don't know enough on how the cells in the eye work to be able to guess if it's the same process or not. ;; Bleach eyes!
00:33:40 <nooga> new Volvos are extremely smart in saving ppl inside
00:33:45 <Vorpal> I would have expected like 10-20 or such
00:34:18 <nooga> a friend of my father lost control over a Volvo, in summer, almost on ice, in traffic
00:34:42 <Vorpal> hm also what about smashed glass or such? that could hit you in the face
00:35:16 <oklopol> the glass only goes in as much as whatever object pushes it
00:35:23 <oklopol> in which case the glass isn't the issue anyway
00:35:32 <nooga> he did like 120km/h, the car turned few times and then it managed to get back to the right direction
00:35:38 <Vorpal> nooga, in some of those crashes they almost hit bystanders!
00:35:43 <nooga> leaving driver with wet pants
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00:36:12 <oklopol> i read "that is hilarious"
00:36:13 <Ilari> Submarining (seatbelts) is when (with poorly designed seatbelts) crash tends to push person under the seatbelt...
00:36:16 <oklopol> was a bit... out of character
00:36:28 <Ilari> Obiviously not a good thing....
00:36:33 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2006-10-20/
00:36:41 <Sgeo> And there's a reason I didn't link to the fast version
00:37:05 <Vorpal> oklopol, in character for you though
00:37:30 <nooga> 01:33 < nooga> a friend of my father lost control over a Volvo, in summer, almost on ice, in traffic
00:38:15 <Ilari> In 3-point seatbelts, IIRC submarining is avoided by having the upper belt tighten the lower one in crash...
00:38:39 <nooga> i guess that one glass of akvavit was too much
00:39:22 <oklopol> i did find it a bit weird that you mentioned it was summer but didn't explain why there was ice
00:39:49 <nooga> Ilari: eg. in Mercedes SLK the seatbelts every time tighten when the car accelerates rapidly
00:40:08 <alise> <fizzie> I don't think they tend to put brick walls in the middle of racing tracks. ;; that would be amazing
00:40:26 <nooga> i can't get my phone while accelerating
00:40:48 <alise> nooga: Volvo's safety record is exaggerated afaik
00:41:14 <nooga> 01:39 < nooga> Ilari: eg. in Mercedes SLK the seatbelts tighten every time when the car accelerates rapidly **
00:41:26 <Vorpal> nooga, wait that video is from different times of the year. Some show snow and some summer
00:42:10 <Vorpal> nooga, I thought it was all *one* tournament at first
00:42:15 <cpressey> nooga: There's no freeways in Manitoba, either. You want onto the Trans-Canada Highway? Stop sign. You want off? Signal and slow down.
00:42:29 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScRGB ;; is there a colour space containing the entire visible spectrum (and, obviously, more)?
00:42:39 <Ilari> IIRC, The X4 seatbelts seen in some Volvos are inferrior to V4's (the more "classical" design).
00:43:04 <alise> Ilari: how do you know about all this shit
00:43:05 <nooga> cpressey: i've heard they have blinking red light in Canada
00:43:21 <alise> we get on to some wildly random off-topic thing and you just start pwning everyone with facts
00:43:39 <cpressey> nooga: yeah, and it means different things in different places...
00:43:40 <Vorpal> alise, well scRGB doesn't quite do it
00:43:44 <Vorpal> alise, you want LAB or such
00:44:00 <nooga> cpressey: i've got a friend with canadian driving license
00:44:01 <alise> Vorpal: why doesn't everyone use LAB?
00:44:09 <nooga> and he talks about Montreal every day
00:44:12 <Vorpal> alise, not sure. Possibly it is awkward
00:44:37 <fizzie> Displays don't do lab, anyway.
00:44:41 <cpressey> nooga: We have blinking green, too! Very pretty.
00:44:48 <Vorpal> alise, because it has that strange shape that the visible area has
00:44:51 <Vorpal> alise, like in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIE1931xy_blank.svg
00:44:59 <alise> Vorpal: that's not the visible area
00:44:59 <Vorpal> not sure you you properly code it
00:45:01 <alise> that's the area that's in RG
00:45:13 <alise> i thought it was a different image you linked to
00:45:17 <Vorpal> alise, it has false colours outside
00:45:27 <alise> i don't mind that though, why does that matter?
00:45:44 <alise> why do false colours matter?
00:46:04 <nooga> cpressey: and we've got informal: late green, very late green, and very very late green
00:46:21 <Vorpal> alise, no, I meant "false" as in "on your monitor they won't show the proper ones"
00:46:30 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't refer to the imaginary ones
00:46:41 <alise> Vorpal: well, ofc we just need a magical LAB display
00:46:50 <Vorpal> alise, and a file format that supports it
00:46:55 <nooga> cpressey: but only when the police is not around
00:47:00 <alise> there's a reference to the TIFF spec in the references section
00:47:03 <Vorpal> alise, I'm 99.9% sure that svg, which that is I think, doesn't
00:47:10 <alise> imaginary colours, i fail to see how they're a problem; just flag an error if some image operation results in them
00:47:12 <alise> in the GPU or whatever
00:48:35 <Vorpal> alise, actually xyY is probably saner than LAB
00:48:46 <fizzie> The outside-the-human-vision values also eat some of the precision, if some coordinate ranges are illegals.
00:49:33 <alise> fizzie: just use moar bits
00:49:44 <Vorpal> alise, XYZ and xyY are discussed on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_1931_color_space
00:49:54 <Vorpal> alise, fizzie: just use floating point
00:50:10 <fizzie> Isn't the whole point of lab to be more perceptually uniform than the CIE XYZ it's derived from.
00:50:39 <fizzie> Which would be something you's like in an image-processing thing.
00:51:26 <fizzie> Still, RGB is a whole lot simpler if you're targeting a RGB screen.
00:52:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, most TFTs actually have different primaries than the CRT ones that sRGB was designed for
00:52:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, but they are artificially restricted by sRGB
00:52:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: You'll see at 100% :P
00:53:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh this is not 75% of LAB?
00:53:07 <cpressey> Gregor is installing HackFactor
00:54:01 <alise> Fuck archaeology, I'm installing Ubuntu!
00:54:14 <Vorpal> alise, archaeology? How so?
00:54:42 <Vorpal> alise, also isn't it "archeology"?
00:54:53 <Vorpal> though aspell seems to accept both
00:55:09 <Gregor> Vorpal: Even my American archaeology class spelled it "archaeology"
00:55:32 <nooga> anestetic, time to sleep
00:55:34 <Gregor> cpressey: You mean an esthetic difference, right? :P
00:57:29 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, also isn't it "archeology"? ;; no
00:57:32 <alise> even Americans spell it with ae
00:59:15 <Vorpal> alise, wikipedia suggests both spellings exist
00:59:41 <alise> Vorpal: nobody says archeology.
00:59:50 <alise> my spellcheck doesn't even accept it here
01:00:02 <Vorpal> aspell here accepts both so *shrug*
01:00:08 <alise> aspell accepts some weird shit.
01:01:11 <alise> well, the dictionary sucks a bit
01:03:23 <cpressey> Gregor is installing Sauerbraten
01:04:05 <alise> Gregor is joining Cat's Eye Technologies.
01:06:23 <fizzie> At 100 % his AI will become sentient and initiate the singularity.
01:06:49 <Gregor> Don't worry, it'll be a slow start.
01:06:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, it's zee combined with microcosm
01:06:57 <Gregor> You won't know you're obsolete 'til you're already just vapor blowing in the wind.
01:07:01 <Vorpal> (sadly I had no time for microcosm recently)
01:07:25 <Gregor> I have, but have been using it on "research" or some such BS.
01:07:32 <Gregor> Also, the thing that's at 99% now.
01:08:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, so what is it?
01:08:17 <fizzie> It's always the last percent that takes longest.
01:08:25 <Gregor> Nowhere near as exciting as I'm making it out to be :P
01:08:32 <Gregor> Well, that was just 100% of the upload, then there's processing ...
01:08:55 <cpressey> Gregor is installing Processing!
01:08:59 <cpressey> No, I might have read that wrong
01:09:19 <fizzie> Gaaaa, screw this, I'll just go and do the thing that I should do that I need to be away for. ->
01:13:46 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processing_(programming_language)
01:13:57 <cpressey> In case my last crack was missed.
01:16:15 <alise> Processing is fun.
01:16:27 <cpressey> "When programming in Processing all additional classes defined will be treated as inner classes when the code is translated into pure Java before compiling. This means that the use of static variables and methods in classes is prohibited unless you explicitly tell Processing that you want to code in pure Java mode."
01:16:36 <alise> Yes, yes, whatever.
01:16:38 <cpressey> That sounds like a coherent approach to language design right there don't ya know.
01:16:43 <alise> You generally don't get code that complex in a Processing applet.
01:16:48 <alise> Besides, there's a thing to use Scala with it.
01:17:22 <cpressey> If you "use Scala with it" what exactly are you using Scala with?
01:18:22 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04OAykpufuM :)
01:19:09 <alise> cpressey: Processing.
01:19:24 <cpressey> oh so gregor's suspense-numbers were youtube upload well that's anticlimactic
01:19:52 <cpressey> maybe if my audio worked in a non-insane way... well i'll bookmark it
01:22:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, I think sound is better from your usual uploads?
01:23:18 <Gregor> Vorpal: Purely digital, no analog involved in producing the audio whatsoever.
01:23:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, besides the file doesn't load properly
01:23:38 <Vorpal> I guess it isn't fully cached
01:23:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, youtube-dl fails at 7%
01:23:58 <Vorpal> then a bit later at 9%
01:24:07 <Gregor> Probably because it wasn't finished "processing"
01:24:17 <Gregor> Not all qualities are available.
01:24:26 <Vorpal> ERROR: content too short (expected 59460573 bytes and served 3619891)
01:24:31 <Gregor> Probably because it wasn't finished "processing"
01:24:31 <Gregor> Not all qualities are available.
01:24:52 <Vorpal> this one tries to download best one reported
01:25:50 <Vorpal> will listen to the rest tomorrow
01:28:12 <cpressey> alise: how goes the finding and installing an os you don't hate thing
01:30:09 <cpressey> my goal for tonight is to write a loop in Pophery
01:32:33 <alise> <cpressey> alise: how goes the finding and installing an os you don't hate thing ;; i hate all OSes
01:32:42 <Gregor> That's my opinion on languages ...
01:33:26 <alise> that's my opinion on everything
01:38:41 <cpressey> everything has its own unique hatefulnessishness
01:46:01 <cpressey> I'm going to settle for getting Pophery's unit tests to pass
01:47:21 <cpressey> Sgeo: does Factor have unit tests?
01:48:01 <Sgeo> Note that the example unit tests given in the tutorial is a bit off
01:48:15 <Sgeo> You should use { } and not [ ] for the result of the executed quotation
01:48:18 <alise> [[Ubuntu's famous slogan is (it should "Just Work", TM)]]
01:48:54 <cpressey> Sgeo: not just support for writing unit tests in Factor, I mean, is there a test suite for the language itself?
01:49:37 <Sgeo> Considering that most of Factor is written in Factor.. I _think_ so. Don't know about all of it, or about the C++ parts
01:49:44 <Sgeo> (At least, I think there are C++ parts)
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01:55:37 <Sgeo> You can ask people who actually know stuff in #concatenative
02:03:51 <cpressey> I might as well just clone the git repo and look myself :)
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02:11:57 -!- derdon has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.).
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02:28:47 <alise> I can't copy one contents of an ISO onto this drive without something fucking up
02:29:15 <Gregor> I WILL HAVE ONE CONTENTS PLEASE
02:29:57 <alise> seriously the transfer just fails
02:29:59 <alise> has my USB drive fucked up?
02:30:03 <alise> should i give up on life?
02:30:08 <alise> is all ultimately hopeless and futile?
02:33:13 <cpressey> clearly a single fucked up usb drive indicates that all is ultimately hopeless and futile
02:33:34 <cpressey> much like the piece of fairy cake, ...
02:33:52 <alise> E: Failed to fetch http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/q/qt4-x11/libqtcore4_4.6.3-1+b1_amd64.deb: Hash Sum mismatch
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02:36:19 <alise> yeah ubuntu still appears to be my best bet
02:36:27 <alise> it's shit but if i avoid flash it... works
02:36:48 <alise> cpressey: have I ever mentioned how much I LOVE THIS LAPTOP
02:37:25 <alise> I LOVE THIS LAPTOP
02:37:29 <Sgeo> alise, why avoid flash?
02:37:45 <Sgeo> I mean, besides the fact that you hate Dot Action 2... oh
02:37:52 <alise> I love Dot Action 2, it's just evil.
02:38:20 <alise> the AV sync is better with OSSv4. but OSS on Ubuntu is painful.
02:39:16 <alise> even unetbootin is failing at it osijfoijf
02:39:22 <alise> i think i'll try and run unetbootin from windows.
02:40:15 <alise> "These software updates have been issued since Debian GNU/Linux was released.If you don't want to install them now, choose "Update Manager" from the Administraion menu later."
02:40:20 <alise> Typos there are from the original.
02:40:27 <alise> The lack of space and the misspelled "Administration".
02:40:34 <alise> Real professional, Update Manager.
02:41:59 <alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo."
02:42:16 <cpressey> I was going to say something then your last line floored me
02:42:42 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_(anthem)
02:42:44 <oerjan> talk about sucking up there
02:42:45 <cpressey> alise: I don't have any huge pain with flash fwiw, since you basically guided me through getting it installed
02:43:03 <alise> it's probably worse here
02:43:06 <alise> since we have to use a wrapper
02:43:36 <alise> awesome li'l 64-bit laptop here
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02:59:15 <Gregor> `addquote <alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo." <cpressey> alise: I <cpressey> I was going to say something then your last line floored me
02:59:25 <HackEgo> 221|<alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo." <cpressey> alise: I <cpressey> I was going to say something then your last line floored me
03:01:01 <Sgeo> Annoying thing about stack-based and concatenative languages: The order of arguments is a significant design choice
03:05:55 * Gregor voodoos Plof at Sgeo :P
03:12:00 <HackEgo> 189|<fungot> ais523: killer bunnies can be harmed by domesticated canines only.
03:26:35 <Gregor> It's been a long time since I frunged assembly, so somebody remind me: Is it the duty of the caller or the callee to save potentially-clobbered registers?
03:31:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: that's a bit the case for curried functional languages like haskell, too
03:31:38 <Sgeo> ambiet VIII is really beautiful
03:31:40 <Sgeo> With the vocals
03:32:24 <HackEgo> 80|<Warrigal> I think hamsters cannot be inert.
03:32:28 <HackEgo> 180|<coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation <coppro> I have no problems with you being interested in online games <coppro> but the necrophilia is disturbing
03:32:29 <Sgeo> Or maybe despite the vocals
03:33:18 <lament> did it just stop working?
03:33:19 <Gregor> Finally it's broken, good
03:33:24 <lament> does it have a quota of quotes?
03:33:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:33:32 <Gregor> No, it just gets broken sometimes.
03:33:40 <Sgeo> Oh, debugging time?
03:34:34 <Sgeo> The songs appear to be in lexical order
03:34:40 <Sgeo> Which is wrong
03:34:42 <Gregor> I've been waiting for it to break so I can see if I can debug it :P
03:34:47 <oerjan> i think `help is pretty much the only thing that works in that state
03:35:30 <Gregor> The `help command will work because it doesn't fork anything.
03:36:40 <Sgeo> ambiet X is also great
03:37:00 <Gregor> fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable D-8
03:37:23 <Sgeo> I LOVE THOS SONG!
03:37:46 <Sgeo> http://www.archive.org/download/Torley_Wong_-_The_Final_Selection/Torley_Wong-ambiet_X.mp3
03:38:18 <oerjan> Gregor: running out of PIDs or something?
03:38:38 <Gregor> oerjan: I think I set the rlimit on the wrong side of the uid changeover D-8
03:39:08 <Sgeo> I feel... like I produce less than everyone else here
03:40:19 <oerjan> Gregor: you mean like the limit applies to _all_ invocations of HackEgo commands and not just to _one_?
03:40:56 <Gregor> oerjan: Even worse, since that UID is shared by Hackiki and a few other bots too :)
03:42:28 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.31035 \ wunderbar_emporium
03:43:30 <oerjan> i'm _sure_ there's a tvtrope for this
03:43:48 <Sgeo> For computer programming?
03:44:06 <Gregor> Does anybody know the answer to my registers question? ...
03:44:56 <cpressey> < Gregor> I've been waiting for it to break so I can see if I can debug it :P <-- welcome to computer science
03:44:56 * oerjan only vaguely recalls that interrupts let the callee save, just for security reasons
03:45:14 <cpressey> Gregor: re registers: it depends on the convention!
03:45:14 <oerjan> and i picked that up from some discussion here i think
03:45:33 <Gregor> cpressey: Of course. Standard UNIX C.
03:45:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
03:46:01 <Gregor> I'm asking this because I'm trying to define a new (non-C) calling convention and need to know how it will interact with C :P
03:47:05 -!- alise has joined.
03:47:11 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_calling_conventions
03:47:23 <Gregor> Why didn't I think to look at Wikipedia ...
03:47:30 <cpressey> "On Linux, gcc is the de-facto standard for calling conventions."
03:47:33 <alise> Because WIKIPEDIA IS FASCISM.
03:47:36 <cpressey> not the gcc is a calling convention
03:48:14 <oerjan> Sgeo: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TemptingFate
03:49:14 <oerjan> with a bunch of subtropes for more specific occasions (i don't see a computer one though)
03:49:52 <Gregor> Go-tit, thankee Wikip!
03:50:01 <alise> Why are all Linux fonts so terrible???
03:50:42 <Gregor> Why are all fontophiles so terrible ...
03:50:55 <alise> Well, okay, DejaVu is nice.
03:50:58 <alise> But there's nothing beyond that.
03:51:04 <alise> Bitstream Charter, okay.
03:51:15 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
03:51:21 <alise> Gregor: I'm not a fontophile who just wants to stuff every typeface I can into something >_<
03:51:44 <alise> Droid Sans is weird as an IRC font.
03:52:43 <HackEgo> 181|<Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough
03:53:18 <HackEgo> 109|<Warrigal> What do you call the husband of my first cousin once removed? <apollo> Warrigal: "Hey, Sexy."
03:56:08 <oerjan> be careful to remove him first though
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03:58:48 <alise> Blergh, there's no repository of X-Chat colour themes.
03:58:52 <alise> Like one that doesn't spew purple everywher.
03:59:12 <cpressey> I want a colour theme that matches the Plof wiki
04:00:27 <cpressey> HUh, I swear it was uglier earlier today
04:01:01 <Sgeo> There's a specialized Plof wiki?
04:01:02 <alise> cpressey: It re-schemes itself.
04:01:09 <alise> http://plof.codu.org/wiki/
04:01:42 <Sgeo> It's not an esolang?
04:02:09 * Sgeo seriously thought it was intended to be an esolang
04:02:22 <Sgeo> Before I, you know, just now actually decided to read about it
04:05:52 <HackEgo> 29|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once
04:05:55 <alise> rhododendron is a lovely word
04:06:01 <HackEgo> 28|<bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to have two heads
04:06:06 <HackEgo> 30|<oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste
04:06:12 <HackEgo> 31|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste"
04:06:16 <HackEgo> 32|<ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers
04:06:20 <HackEgo> 33|IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler!
04:06:27 <HackEgo> 34|SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
04:06:31 <HackEgo> 35|PA ET ANNET UNIVERSET DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN: <oerjan> sa jeg kan bare konkludere med at det er feil, eller er verden helt bonkers
04:06:35 <HackEgo> 36|<Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
04:06:43 <alise> cpressey: The Alternate Universe story arc!
04:06:52 <alise> Courtesy of me and Google Translate.
04:07:05 <oerjan> In an alternate universe, there are no hypotheticals
04:07:47 <oerjan> that's some broken norwegian up there
04:07:56 * Sgeo logs in to the Plof wiki
04:08:20 <alise> oerjan: I had to convert the øs, for a start, since EgoBot was being sucky.
04:08:23 <alise> If I recall correctly.
04:08:39 <oerjan> and å too, but even so the grammar is insane :D
04:09:31 <oerjan> well for the part before the colon, the remainder isn't that crazy
04:10:50 <oerjan> I ET ANNET UNIVERS DER OERJAN ER ENESTE PERSON would be the correct grammar
04:11:24 <oerjan> well assuming it means what i think it means
04:11:39 <oerjan> (it accidentally the verb too)
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04:12:41 <cpressey> oerjan: it probably means what you think it means, since there's this nice Rosetta stone thing going on for context
04:13:09 <oerjan> s/eller/ellers/ as well, otherwise the meaning is not the same as ehird's original
04:13:28 -!- wareya has joined.
04:14:22 <oerjan> (with just eller it means "or is the world completely bonkers")
04:15:40 <oerjan> hm is bonkers a norwegian word
04:16:07 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've heard it
04:16:41 <Gregor> I'm pretty sure YouTube used to make it possible to allow downloading of videos (without youtube-dl or similar)
04:16:48 <Gregor> But it doesn't seem to now.
04:18:20 <oerjan> cpressey: well the rosetta thing breaks down for the part "DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN" since it clearly doesn't mean that i conquered anything. well unless i killed everyone else, i guess.
04:18:25 <pikhq> Gregor: Never has.
04:18:32 <pikhq> Gregor: However, Google Video *always* has.
04:19:10 <Gregor> I thought Google Video had near faded out of existence since YouTube ...
04:19:15 <Gregor> was bought by Google ...
04:19:31 <pikhq> Google Video has ceased to host new videos.
04:19:40 <pikhq> It remains as a video-specific search engine.
04:19:44 <Gregor> So that's pretty unhelpful :P
04:20:03 <pikhq> youtube-dl is still handy, though. ;)
04:20:19 <Gregor> I could of course host this video on codu.org ... pretty pointless either way *shrugs*
04:20:32 <alise> Ffff okay what IRC clients do you people use. Name it if it's not XChat or terminal-based.
04:20:48 <Sgeo> Used to use Konversation
04:21:02 <Sgeo> Does XChat-GNOME count as XChat?
04:21:05 <oerjan> hm chirp could be a nice name for a client
04:21:17 <alise> Sgeo: you use XChat-GNOME?
04:21:18 <Gregor> Never used Konversation, but if it's as good as Kopete, go with X-Chat :P
04:21:20 <Sgeo> alise, used to
04:21:26 <alise> it hasn't seen a release since ... 2007 or something
04:21:30 <alise> Gregor: Konversation is better. But...
04:21:32 <Sgeo> A long time ago
04:21:35 <alise> I'm sorta using GNOME.
04:21:41 <pikhq> I've used Konversation a *bit*. It kinda sucks.
04:21:42 <oerjan> ah it exists, for twitter
04:21:48 <alise> pikhq: it's not /so/ bad, though
04:21:51 <Sgeo> alise has the same psychosis I do!
04:21:59 <pikhq> But only in comparison with other pure-IRC clients.
04:22:15 <pikhq> It's still a *lot* better than IM clients that happen to have IRC.
04:22:16 <Sgeo> Not wanting to mix Qt with GNOME and GTK+ with KDE
04:22:30 <alise> Uhh, that's just a desire for interface and visual consistency.
04:22:34 <alise> Not a psychosis, at least in my case...
04:22:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: I mix Qt with XFCE. Though only because Qt's GTK theme works pretty much perfectly...
04:23:09 <pikhq> If it weren't for that, I would throw one or the other away.
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04:24:53 <pikhq> I used to use Fluxbox.
04:25:05 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:25:13 -!- alise has joined.
04:25:24 <Gregor> I use to used poor grammar.
04:25:31 -!- alise has quit (Client Quit).
04:25:38 -!- alise has joined.
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04:25:52 -!- alise has joined.
04:25:57 <alise> Sometimes it feels to me as if I'm just being used.
04:26:01 <alise> (Is the meme dead yet?)
04:26:29 <Sgeo> alise, I don't remember that meme?
04:27:31 <alise> Okay seriously someone has to use a Linux graphical client that isn't XChat here.
04:28:03 <Sgeo> Isn't BitchX graphical?
04:28:09 <cpressey> if you did'nt say Linux I would have mentioned that I use Pidgin
04:28:25 <alise> BitchX is textual....................................................................................
04:28:28 <Sgeo> pikhq, cpressey is trolling
04:28:32 <alise> cpressey: Firstly, Pidgin is primarily a Linux client.
04:28:35 <alise> Secondly, Sgeo, no.
04:28:38 <alise> He actually uses Pidgin.
04:28:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: TROLL AND PITCHFORK
04:28:48 <pikhq> WE SHALL TROLL AND PITCHFORK HIM
04:28:50 <alise> Thirdly, cpressey, never utter those words. Just -- don't.
04:28:51 <cpressey> pikhq: In Windows. Because for bad reasons.
04:29:01 <Sgeo> Pidgin exists for Linux, you know
04:29:12 <pikhq> cpressey: Permission requested to murder you deeply.
04:29:15 <Sgeo> Not that I'd recommend it for IRC
04:29:22 <cpressey> I know it exists for Linux, but I guess I consider it "cross platform".
04:29:38 <zzo38> O, what kind of features are you looking for in a IRC client, anyways, you can just write one or modify an existing IRC client program
04:29:39 <alise> I more meant "available on Linux at all".
04:29:48 <cpressey> I mainly use it to connect to a Jabber server at work.
04:29:49 <pikhq> GTK is the least cross-platform cross-platform UI.
04:29:51 <Sgeo> Although it may have been my first IRC client
04:30:04 <pikhq> UI toolkit, I mean.
04:30:12 <pikhq> Sgeo: It looks non-native everywhere but Gnome.
04:30:18 <alise> Sgeo: it's awful on OS X
04:30:22 <alise> it's imperfect on Windows
04:30:28 <alise> and it was even more imperfect on Windows a few years ago
04:30:38 <alise> it doesn't have a Qt native theme, either
04:30:38 <Sgeo> Qt mandates C++ usage
04:30:41 <alise> (Qt has a GTK+ one)
04:30:45 <cpressey> pikhq: If it will make you feel better, I will not use Pidgin for IRC ever again. I'm sure I can find irssi under cygwin or something.
04:30:49 <Gregor> alise: mIRC works great in wine.
04:30:53 <Sgeo> Which makes it a bitch from non-C++ languages
04:30:54 <alise> cpressey: Just... use mIRC.
04:31:01 <alise> Gregor: Do... do you actually do this?
04:31:13 <Sgeo> GTK+ at least can have bindings in any language with a C FFI
04:31:28 <Sgeo> Factor, incidentally, may eventually have a C++ FFI
04:31:31 <alise> cpressey: It's okay with like three bits of configuration.
04:31:37 <alise> cpressey: You could also use ChatZilla's standalone version.
04:31:43 <Sgeo> Wait, how does PyQt work?
04:31:53 <alise> Sgeo: By using a C++ FFI.
04:31:57 <Sgeo> ChatZilla has a standalone version?
04:32:01 <alise> http://chatzilla.rdmsoft.com/xulrunner/
04:32:15 <pikhq> Either SWIG or manually create C bindings and then bind *those*.
04:32:16 <cpressey> alise: Any suggestions for something that connect to Jabber and IRC and doesn't suck?
04:32:17 <Sgeo> cpressey, what's wrong with Silverex?
04:32:30 <alise> cpressey: You don't want both in the same client.
04:32:33 <alise> cpressey: Don't use Silverex.
04:32:39 <alise> Silverex is just a mediocre XChat build for Windows.
04:32:40 <Sgeo> alise, why not?
04:32:46 <pikhq> Or, if you're particularly crazy, *link directly against C++*.
04:32:58 <alise> cpressey: Seriously: you want a separate IM and IRC client.
04:33:22 <pikhq> (this is just *barely* possible on many UNIX systems, courtesy of using basically the same calling convention for C and C++.)
04:33:28 <Sgeo> BitlBee! (not a serious recommendation)
04:33:38 <cpressey> alise: ... since I am mostly talking in Jabber "chatrooms", the functionality is basically identical.
04:33:39 <zzo38> In my opinion PHIRC is good, but it doesn't support Jabber (unless you can write a protocol plugin). It might not have the feature you want though (but it is possible to modify the program!)
04:33:49 <pikhq> (have to do your own name-mangling and handling of this, though)
04:33:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: I use Bitlbee, and have for years.
04:34:14 <zzo38> But I don't use other kind of IM anyways. I don't use AIM and MSN and those things
04:34:26 <alise> cpressey: use bitlbee
04:34:29 <pikhq> It's not *great*, but I've not really found any other clients that don't make me want to stab someone.
04:34:31 * Sgeo uses Pidgin for everything except IRC
04:34:32 <alise> that's what i did for megabreds
04:34:34 <zzo38> IRC is works even for private message
04:34:41 <alise> bit of a screwy on-IRC interface, but once you're in a channel it's good
04:34:44 <alise> cpressey: you use an IRC client
04:34:50 <alise> and connect to a local bitlbee server
04:34:53 <alise> which connects to jabber
04:34:55 <alise> and relays it back to IRC
04:35:05 <cpressey> so, I have to run my own local server.
04:35:13 <alise> cpressey: there is a windows binary
04:35:16 <alise> it just goes into a little tray icon
04:35:19 <alise> and runs entirely locally
04:35:30 <Sgeo> There's also a public server, iirc
04:35:32 <alise> so really the only noticeable effect is that you can't listen on port 9999 or whatever
04:35:35 <Sgeo> But why would you trust it?
04:35:36 <alise> Sgeo: if you trust them with your passwords.
04:35:39 * Sgeo looks around sheepishly
04:35:43 <cpressey> being able to use irssi to talk on the jabber things would be nice
04:36:29 <Sgeo> I also kind of trust Meebo and eBuddy :/
04:37:00 <Sgeo> Well, did something that I should only do with entities I extremely trust
04:37:31 <alise> OH THE BROKEN FOCE
04:37:31 <zzo38> It is possible to write a protocol plugin for PHIRC, to support other protocols. You must program in:
04:37:48 <Sgeo> PHP, for starters
04:38:02 <zzo38> * A conversion between IRC syntax and the protocol you are working with (it does not have to be IRC commands, it only has to follow the same syntax)
04:38:15 <zzo38> * What command is typed when the line starts with the space bar
04:38:43 <zzo38> * Any automated functions that are used in the protocol
04:38:51 <Sgeo> zzo38, were you on IRC before you wrote PHIRC?
04:39:04 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, but I used netcat. PHIRC is much better for IRC, though.
04:39:45 <Sgeo> What did you use for web browsing before Vonkeror? netcat?
04:39:46 <pikhq> Shoulda used RawIRC.
04:40:34 -!- augur has joined.
04:40:36 <zzo38> Sgeo: I used various programs for web browser, but they all had problems. Vonkeror has problems too but it is what I have, and at least it works.
04:41:40 <Sgeo> cpressey, because you didn't write your own IRC client and web browser? You still wrote how many esolangs? I should feel boring
04:41:50 -!- augur has quit (Client Quit).
04:41:51 <Sgeo> What do I do? Make one barely-interesting -> non-interesting projec
04:41:58 <pikhq> cpressey: YOU SHOULD! YOU DO NOTHING INTERESTING AT ALL
04:42:02 <alise> One day, when all our faddish systems have died out and Ubuntu is but a Bantu word long forgotten, zzo38's code will be preserved crisply in its digital home that survives into the future.
04:42:03 <zzo38> PHIRC is different than most IRC clients, but that is different program is supposed to be different than the other protogram, anyways.
04:42:04 <Sgeo> And then just disappear from the face of the community
04:42:17 <alise> And when our future selves look back to see what technological wonders our generation created...
04:42:23 <alise> ...all the world's tabs will be green.
04:42:33 <zzo38> Some people do not like it that PHIRC is different than the other program. But in my opinion, I like the way of PHIRC better than other IRC client program.
04:43:00 <Sgeo> Just don't write anything too similar to SSDS
04:43:04 <pikhq> After all, you wrote it.
04:43:22 <Sgeo> Or at least, with its coding style
04:43:29 <Sgeo> And braindead evangelism
04:43:51 <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of?
04:44:24 <Sgeo> http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNR_enUS321US321&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=SpectateSwamp+Desktop+Searc`h#hl=en&rlz=1C1CHNR_enUS321US321&sa=X&ei=d0yMTI2_CoGdlge40qhg&ved=0CBIQvwUoAQ&q=SpectateSwamp+Desktop+Search&spell=1&fp=6052204b889acdd8
04:44:25 <alise> AFSLJDSPFJPOSJDOIASLKNMFMHDB
04:44:32 <Sgeo> Wow, sucky URLness
04:44:49 <alise> Sgeo: Oh right, because I should instantly know that SSDS → Spectate Swamp Desktop Search.
04:44:52 <alise> You know, with my telepathy.
04:44:52 <zzo38> Sgeo: SSDS? Do you mean SpectateSwamp Desktop Search? I agree SSDS is very badly implemented, many of these functions could be done using some UNIX commands, and stuff like that
04:45:19 <zzo38> alise: (I knew, I started typing this message before anyone else said it was that?)
04:45:31 <alise> Right, but I didn't know.
04:45:40 * Sgeo was expecting alise to know >.>
04:45:55 <Sgeo> Note to self: zzo38 is the telepath, not alise.
04:48:38 -!- augur has joined.
04:48:40 <zzo38> How many monster characters are in your group at D&D? (Is the answer a natural number? (Note: I consider zero also be a natural number, as well as all positive integers))
04:48:54 <oerjan> Sgeo: yeah i hate google's redirects too
04:49:00 <alise> -498573982798245628374956829345689732465289756432895692835689345683429765893465928374659832465.4
04:49:03 <alise> No, it is not a natural number.
04:49:17 <zzo38> alise: I can see that. But I don't believe your answer
04:49:47 <zzo38> Then perhaps explain your D&D game, and then maybe I can understand more better your answers too
04:50:16 <alise> My D&D game is played solely on LSD. It exists only in the mind.
04:50:28 <Sgeo> Well, one day, there were 1 monsters to be distributed, but 0 players
04:50:30 <zzo38> alise: O, OK. Now I believe your answer
04:50:32 <cpressey> `addquote < alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? < pikhq> alise: TLAAW
04:50:34 <HackEgo> 222|< alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? < pikhq> alise: TLAAW
04:50:43 <alise> As the realisation quickly dawns that we are all one person and bodies are just an illusion that perpetuates the falsity that we have distinct consciousnesses, there is only one player, and they are everyone.
04:50:52 <Sgeo> So we divided the monsters up equally
04:50:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: If there is no player, there can be no play game??!!
04:51:03 <zzo38> Sgeo: O, now I understand your answer
04:51:04 <alise> `addquote <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
04:51:07 <alise> cpressey: Anal. Sorry.
04:51:10 <HackEgo> 223|<alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
04:51:31 <Sgeo> Then, we spawned the monsters 0 times
04:51:54 <Sgeo> There were then Nullity monsters
04:52:14 <zzo38> alise: And if that is the answer, how many normal character in your group of D&D? (Is *this* answer the natural number, at least?)
04:52:29 <alise> zzo38: Nothing is normal in LSD&D.
04:52:33 <zzo38> (Nullity is zero divided by zero (I think))
04:52:57 <zzo38> But you can't divide by zero. But at least now there is a word for dividing zero by zero, anyways.
04:52:59 <alise> zzo38: No, I'm joking; there are actually 808017424794512875886459904961710757005754368000000000 monsters.
04:53:19 <zzo38> alise: As player characters? Or non-player characters? Or both?
04:53:28 <alise> Well, they all play a part.
04:53:39 <zzo38> Or are the number of player and non-player both not natural but add up to a natural number?
04:53:46 <Sgeo> 2/0 = 4/0 != 3/0 = 1/0 = 2/0
04:53:51 <alise> I don't want to be the D&D-playing torso.
04:54:05 <zzo38> alise: What is the "D&D-playing torso"?
04:54:15 <alise> The non-natural fraction of the number of players.
04:54:21 <alise> Sgeo: it factors numbers, fanboy.
04:54:26 <augur> `run run which factor
04:54:28 <oerjan> `factor 808017424794512875886459904961710757005754368000000000
04:54:38 <Sgeo> `factor "Hello world" print
04:54:38 <augur> apparently its not fully recursive
04:54:46 <oerjan> `factor 808017424794512875886459904961710757005754368000000000
04:54:47 <alise> augur: of course not
04:54:50 <alise> it has some commands
04:54:52 <alise> that aren't unix commands
04:54:55 <alise> like run, help, revert
04:54:59 <zzo38> alise: OK. I guess the LSD&D can be all strange and impossible, so therefore now I know
04:55:06 <zzo38> But therefore I don't know.
04:55:08 <augur> alise: i got kiss raped tonight
04:55:13 <alise> zzo38: Actually, it's group D&D.
04:55:29 <oerjan> useless factoring program
04:55:32 <alise> Monster group D&D.
04:55:54 <zzo38> alise: O! Monster group D&D. Now I understand.
04:55:58 <alise> `run factor -6 2>&1
04:56:02 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/factor: invalid option -- '6' \ Try `/usr/bin/factor --help' for more information.
04:56:23 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
04:56:24 <alise> `run factor -- -6 2>&1
04:56:26 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/factor: `-6' is not a valid positive integer
04:56:27 <zzo38> `run factor -- -6 2>&1 # Will this work?
04:56:29 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/factor: `-6' is not a valid positive integer
04:57:01 <Sgeo> `run echo "$PATH"
04:57:02 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.1794/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
04:57:03 <zzo38> No! You need to run it in the shell!
04:57:08 <oerjan> `factor 808017424794512875886459904961710757005754368
04:57:28 <alise> I will never be talked.
04:57:38 <alise> `factor 33333333333333333333333333333
04:57:43 <HackEgo> 2to3-2.6 \ X11 \ [ \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ apropos \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-curses \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ axi-cache \ base64 \ basename \ bashbug
04:57:47 <alise> `run factor 33333333333333333333333333333 2>&1
04:57:48 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/factor: `33333333333333333333333333333' is too large
04:58:10 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less
04:58:30 * cpressey suspects there's more in both those directories
04:58:38 <HackEgo> CP SPT=55373 DPT=1182 WINDOW=5840 RES=0x00 SYN URGP=0 \ [322228.464846] Shorewall:net2fw:DROP:IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=aa:00:00:59:ad:41:00:50:c2:98:e7:2e:08:00 SRC=85.190.0.3 DST=64.62.173.65 LEN=60 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=56 ID=64391 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=35942 DPT=8000 WINDOW=5840 RES=0x00 SYN URGP=0 \ [322228.464920] Shorewall:net2fw:DROP:IN=eth0
04:58:52 <HackEgo> [558479.134212] Shorewall:net2fw:DROP:IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=aa:00:00:59:ad:41:00:50:c2:98:e7:2e:08:00 SRC=59.50.95.103 DST=64.62.173.65 LEN=40 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=109 ID=256 PROTO=TCP SPT=6000 DPT=3389 WINDOW=16384 RES=0x00 SYN URGP=0 \ [559599.708679] Shorewall:net2fw:DROP:IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=aa:00:00:59:ad:41:00:50:c2:98:e7:2e:08:00
04:59:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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05:00:14 <HackEgo> /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
05:00:45 <HackEgo> rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) \ none on /sys type sysfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) \ none on /proc type proc (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) \ udev on /dev type tmpfs (rw,relatime,size=10240k,mode=755) \ /dev/disk/by-label/PRGMRDISK1 on / type ext3 (rw,relatime,errors=remount-ro,data=ordered) \ tmpfs on /lib/init/rw type tmpfs
05:00:56 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.2556/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
05:00:57 * pikhq has the odd suspicion that Gregor would like prog rock...
05:01:13 <oerjan> cpressey: the number changes with each command
05:01:57 <alise> IcedTea is a perfectly acceptable JVM, right?
05:02:03 <alise> Gregor: domo arigato molto rubato
05:02:34 <pikhq> "Domo arikàtô moruto ruhàto", you mean.
05:02:35 <Gregor> alise: IcedTea is HotSpot.
05:02:45 <alise> I mean the libraries and whatnot.
05:02:52 <pikhq> And yes, IcedTea is perfectly acceptable. I've been using it for a couple of years now with no problems.
05:03:30 <Gregor> alise: The libraries are the standard JDK suite of libraries, with an extremely few bits replaced by open alternatives. Emphasis on "extremely few". The chances of you running into any issues is very low.
05:03:47 <Gregor> oerjan: "really quite stolen"
05:04:29 <pikhq> Gregor: Said few bits were coincidentally done 100% perfectly by GCJ, IIRC.
05:04:41 <alise> prisencolinensinainciusol
05:04:43 <pikhq> So they just ported that over and had a full JVM in a weekend.
05:05:30 <alise> oerjan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUi6UEQh00
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05:08:27 <pikhq> Gregor: Prog rock, just BTW, is basically rock that is not simplistic. :P
05:10:13 <alise> pikhq: well it depends
05:10:21 <alise> "prog" on its own has come to denote a certain genre in a way
05:10:30 <alise> distinct from older progressive rock
05:10:50 * pikhq is a-listening to Kansas' Magnum Opus (from Leftoverture)
05:11:15 <zzo38> Please make some music with non-standard temperament
05:11:26 <pikhq> zzo38: Temperament?
05:11:26 <alise> I have a non-standard temperament. I'M ALWAYS ANGRY
05:11:27 <cpressey> And we cannot neglect Jethro Tull here
05:11:38 <pikhq> cpressey: Alas, I lack Jethro Tull.
05:11:42 <alise> cpressey: Yes! The agricultural pioneer.
05:11:55 <zzo38> alise: Not quite what I meant, though. But it is a start.
05:12:35 <alise> pikhq: It's interesting how close some genres get to classical.
05:12:41 <zzo38> pikhq: I mean, like instead of using twelve-tone equal temperament, use something else, such as pythagorean, just intonation, Bohlen-Pierce, or whatever else
05:12:53 <zzo38> Both rational and irrational temperaments can be used.
05:12:57 <alise> Various genres of metal get quite close to classical quite often...
05:13:15 <pikhq> alise: Anyways. It's most notable for actually having complex music, as opposed to most other forms of rock music...
05:13:22 <cpressey> I swear there are some things that Rammstein does musically that are not far from Bach.
05:13:25 <pikhq> But yeah, metal tends to do that too.
05:13:45 <alise> pikhq: Post-rock is also as complex as progressive, and very close to classical.
05:13:46 <zzo38> (Equal temperament is irrational. Most other kinds of temperaments are rational. Both ways work, for different kind of music.)
05:13:50 <alise> In fact it's got very little rock in it.
05:14:08 <alise> There are guitars in it. Often they're played with a bow or some other such ridiculous stuff. Occasionally they're even overdriven.
05:14:10 <pikhq> alise: Okay, I guess other forms of popular rock music.
05:14:30 <alise> Post-rock is a subgenre of progressive rock, I suppose.
05:14:49 * Sgeo hits alise with a Bucket
05:14:50 <Gregor> Is that short for "post-modern rock"
05:14:56 <Gregor> Or "post-post-modern rock"
05:15:09 <pikhq> cpressey: I *hate* early Beatles.
05:15:13 <pikhq> cpressey: *Hate hate hate*.
05:15:20 <alise> early beatles = monkees
05:15:21 <cpressey> pikhq: I thought at least *one* person here would..
05:15:32 <pikhq> Those guys damned well needed marijuana.
05:15:35 <cpressey> I was going for "regressive rock".
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05:15:39 * Sgeo hates anyone who uses the word hate for any reason, including obvious quotations, even quotations that don't have quote marks.
05:15:41 <alise> I am not the biggest Beatles fan.
05:16:01 <pikhq> alise: Second half of their career had a lot of good stuff.
05:16:23 <Sgeo> Most music is the same to me: Awesome
05:16:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Including yourself?
05:16:45 * pikhq is, oddly enough, quite fond of what most people just call "bizarre and pretentious" of theirs.
05:16:47 <Sgeo> zzo38, that was the point
05:16:49 <pikhq> Mmm, "Revolution Nine".
05:17:08 <alise> Revolution Nine is... a botched attempt at creating something avant garde, imo.
05:17:44 * Sgeo verbs websites
05:17:45 <alise> you've never heard Revolution Nine?
05:17:47 <alise> you're really weird.
05:17:57 <alise> WE'RE ALL SO WRONG
05:18:06 <zzo38> Try writing a few notes in non-standard temperament, even just for experiment at first
05:18:13 <alise> Actually every time I read "The White Album" it irks me.
05:18:21 <pikhq> alise: Proto-techno, perhaps.
05:18:27 <alise> It's ... not techno.
05:18:38 <alise> Musique concrète, yes.
05:18:41 <Sgeo> I have found a song that really grates my ears!
05:18:57 <zzo38> You might know the standard music follow the frequency 2^(n/12)
05:19:10 <Sgeo> Maybe it was just one ... /me ills
05:19:15 <zzo38> Now try making music with frequencies 3^(n/13) instead
05:19:16 <alise> *grates* your ears?
05:19:19 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's not commonly appreciated.
05:19:21 <alise> it's not very interesting, but grates?
05:19:48 <pikhq> What with being rather bizarre for a rock band.
05:19:52 <Sgeo> alise, well, parts, at least
05:20:23 <GreaseMonkey> actually is there a good, open-source program for composing in bohlen-pierce?
05:20:26 <cpressey> zzo38: I'm pretty sure I tried a non-standard temperament once on a C64.
05:20:45 * Sgeo rinses his ears with Torley Linden
05:21:04 <cpressey> Hey, GreaseMonkey: What is your quit message supposed to mean?
05:21:16 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: I don't know. What I would like to have is something that you can compose any temperament, like METAFONT but with music
05:21:26 <GreaseMonkey> cpressey: lemme find it, it's from a megazeux game
05:21:30 <zzo38> Also sort of like TeX but with music.
05:21:42 <alise> TeX but with music -- you mean LilyPond.
05:21:47 <cpressey> GreaseMonkey: that is indeed a start on the quest for its meaning
05:22:06 <zzo38> alise: Not quite... I mean something a bit different, it is harder to explain.
05:22:14 <zzo38> It is not simply like TeX or METAFONT
05:22:27 <alise> zzo38: like something that can output to midi too?
05:22:34 <zzo38> But also somewhat like MML (Music Macro Language), but that you can redefine, and stuff
05:22:53 <pikhq> And now: Decemberists.
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05:23:22 <zzo38> You could have output to MIDI, but would be prefer a different format so that you can write the synthesis as well, and also macros, and other things
05:23:27 <cpressey> GreaseMonkey: I am enlightened. and I approve.
05:25:19 <zzo38> I also have a fork of MegaZeux. Which one you use depend on various things. Old world files are better using my program, also there is new features. New files with the newest format require the official one (from the vault). Also the official one you can get for many operating system you do not have to compile it by yourself
05:25:47 <cpressey> someone needs to turn megazeux into an operating system
05:26:15 <zzo38> cpressey: I have no intention for such a things though.
05:27:41 <zzo38> But if you have question about some internal function of MegaZeux, or about the new features that I have added in to MegaZeux, you can ask a question
05:28:17 <cpressey> have you ever played Rings of Zon? It's no MegaZeux, but it's similar
05:29:20 <zzo38> And I can't find a Wikipedia page for Rings of Zon
05:29:54 <zzo38> More MegaZeux game is my game series "Super ASCII MZX Town".
05:30:01 <cpressey> It was a pretty obscure game (Amiga only I think)
05:30:18 <zzo38> In Part II (not finish yet), it even has talking spiders and talking tree. And also the Spanish Inquisition. And other things.
05:30:43 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: Yes it is, and they even lost the source-codes
05:31:04 <GreaseMonkey> my personal favourite is to put a movement command inside a scroll
05:31:12 <zzo38> But one project I work on is the "CZZT", which is a reimplementation of ZZT written in Enhanced CWEB and SDL
05:31:34 <zzo38> And then this program can also be published as a book, too.
05:31:53 <GreaseMonkey> that reminds me, i should consider working on JZT
05:32:13 <GreaseMonkey> btw zzo38, there's some really screwy stuff i documented in the thread for tyger
05:32:17 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: Yes maybe you can consider it if you want to
05:32:37 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: I will look at it, but some of the things I might already know
05:33:14 <zzo38> Which file(s) do you want me to look at?
05:34:04 <zzo38> Is there any other book about ZZT? CZZT might be the first one, possibly.
05:35:10 <GreaseMonkey> zzo38: http://zzt.belsambar.net/fora/viewtopic.php?p=64118#64118
05:36:07 <cpressey> JZT, I assume, is ZZT on the Java platform?
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05:37:08 <zzo38> Thanks, that does help. Now I can figure out what algorithm was probably used for reading the commands
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05:41:41 <zzo38> CZZT is designed only for small-endian computers, please!
05:42:30 <cpressey> alise: remember PopLife? that blitter Game of Life for the Amiga? It does work in UAE!
05:42:51 <alise> cpressey: decipher the code
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06:02:27 <zzo38> I got everything I have already defined in the WEBMATH font to work correctly.
06:02:27 <zzo38> But I would still like help, for some things
06:02:27 <zzo38> Like, suggest design for the "typewriter control graphics", which are symbols used to represent '\r' and '\n' and so on.
06:02:27 <zzo38> And do you know how to draw a picture of a spider and spider web in METAFONT?
06:02:27 <zzo38> Any other characters you think should be added?
06:09:13 <cpressey> Nope, this is one area in which I know nothing at all, sorry.
06:16:39 <GreaseMonkey> oh yes this bug is awesome: http://zzt.belsambar.net/fora/viewtopic.php?t=3161
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06:19:56 * Sgeo growls at the Family Research Council stealing the real FRC's ancronym
06:22:42 <pikhq> Fantasy Rules Commission.
06:28:12 * Sgeo should learn to speak Val$ar
06:29:31 <Sgeo> Val$ar should be the official language of nomics
06:31:10 <pikhq> No, no, no. Esperanto written with kanji should be the official language of nomics. :P
06:32:02 <pikhq> (Bonas, mi pensas.)
06:32:26 * Sgeo wonders what the Lojban equiv. of ti and tiyi is. Probably lo for both,
06:32:32 * Sgeo pokes Warrigal
06:35:45 <Sgeo> person is womanman
06:35:59 <Sgeo> (person = ejep, woman = ej, man = ep)
06:46:00 <Sgeo> +++i++++iu+i+i++iu+
06:50:30 <Sgeo> >left wondering in exactly what sense I have bought the big fish."
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07:51:16 * Sgeo has a hard time defining the boundary between reality and fantasy
07:51:52 <Sgeo> Does U.S. Law, which might contain legal fictions (corporate personhood, for example), constitute a fictitious world?
07:57:48 <Sgeo> I just monolouged to someone who probably doesn't care :/
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09:17:00 <Ilari> Sgeo: Are laws that pruport to be based on science but have absolutely no basis on ralisty legal ficition too? :-)
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09:53:02 <Vorpal> reading the DWARF standard it seems overly complex...
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09:57:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The Pope apparently doesn't wear his hat when not doing mass.
09:58:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, is it just me or is the music slightly out of sync with the video in that video you posted yesterday? Hm and now the download just failed halfway through again.
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10:04:59 <augur> ive seen video of alise
10:06:01 <augur> tho i'd fuck that kid hard
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10:06:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04OAykpufuM
10:09:34 <augur> facebook / psygnisfive
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11:05:53 <Vorpal> ah finally it downloads completely
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11:12:20 <oklofok> "<cpressey> I swear there are some things that Rammstein does musically that are not far from Bach." <<< yeah bach loved to repeat a two note sequence for 2 minutes straight
11:14:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, very nicely played in that video
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11:19:22 <oklofok> i mean take something like 0.0.000.000.0.1., repeat it 8 times, then put in some wonky keyboard sounds every now and then and sing a verse about fucking your girlfriend with your manly penis, then sing a chorus with some overused chord sequence like 085(10)
11:19:34 <oklofok> and repeat this a couple times
11:19:38 <oklofok> and you have a hit rammstein song
11:20:06 <oklofok> i guess you need to optimize the chorus melody a bit (and actually have one)
11:20:26 <oklofok> also that riff may be from somewhere, i aimed for extremely trivial
11:21:32 <oklofok> 0.0.000.000.0.1.|0.0.000.000.0.1.|0.0.000.003.4.1|5.5.555.333.1.3.
11:21:48 <oklofok> see, it's not at all rammstein now that i actually added a few notes
11:22:35 <oklofok> but with that addition, maybe the chorus should start at 5
11:23:45 <oklofok> cpressey: in other words, can you elaborate?
11:24:08 <oklofok> :----------------------------------------P
11:45:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: Re "music out of sync", the youtube video description apologises for av sync issues, so t's probably not just you.
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11:45:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah, didn't see that due to using youtube.dl
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14:55:28 <alise> wow, it seems Canonical are actually paying Fraunhofer MP3 licensing fees
14:55:40 <alise> "MPEG Layer-3 audio decoding technology licensed from Fraunhofer IIS and Thomson"
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15:33:18 <alise> foobar2000 is rubbish in WINE
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15:37:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what IRC client do you use?
15:38:28 <alise> I'm attempting to make it not-ugly colour-wise, but I'd rather just use something else.
15:38:32 <alise> The little niggles are getting to me.
15:38:45 <alise> Why the hell doesn't it use native GTK+ selections? Who knows!
15:38:54 <alise> Why does it open the main menu when you right click unselected text? Who knows!
15:39:09 <alise> Why is it so doggone weird? Whoooo knoooows!
15:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I get a colour thing in the preferences, but I suspect you've noticed that.
15:40:51 <alise> It's just a pain to fiddle around with it.
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15:49:55 <alise> WHY OH WHY DOES IT DO THIS TO ME
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16:44:00 <Vorpal> Deewiant, do you have efunge checked out?
16:44:19 <Vorpal> if so, it is possible you have to upgrade repo format since I did that for the launchpad branches.
16:44:33 <Vorpal> Deewiant, http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/latest/en/upgrade-guide/index.html#migrating-local-branches-after-a-central-trunk-has-migrated
16:44:48 <Deewiant> Alright, thanks for the heads up
16:45:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, basically, the new format is not backwards compat. And bzr in the last version started bugging me about the current one being obsolete
16:45:22 <Vorpal> Deewiant, will probably do cfunge too later today
16:45:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, you might want to be aware of that too
16:50:44 <alise> "I’m funded from social security disability for being insane." --LoseThos developer.
16:50:52 <alise> I have absolutely no doubts about the veracity of this claim
17:00:21 <alise> Vorpal: explain why Conspire's site has disappeared
17:01:26 <Vorpal> alise, how should I know? I don't use that software...
17:01:31 <alise> Vorpal: you recommended it once
17:01:59 <Vorpal> alise, I think I said it looked like a promising alternative to xchat or something like that
17:03:00 <alise> i have better things to do than fill my head with Encyclopedia Dramatica articles, although, admittedly, not /much/ better.
17:03:29 <Phantom_Hoover> His TV Tropes entry is actually split into two sections.
17:04:12 <Vorpal> mhm, never heard of him
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17:16:38 <afaulds> I made a language, but it needs an interpreter
17:16:52 <afaulds> and I'm too new to C to write a good one
17:16:53 <afaulds> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator
17:17:48 -!- Hiant has joined.
17:21:32 <Vorpal> Deewiant, fizzie: upgraded cfunge trunk too now.
17:22:10 <afaulds> I might try writing one in javascript
17:22:25 <Vorpal> you and anyone else that have it checked out: http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/latest/en/upgrade-guide/index.html#migrating-local-branches-after-a-central-trunk-has-migrated
17:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> afaulds, what went wrong when trying to write a C one?
17:23:05 <Vorpal> Deewiant, fizzie: use bzr info to find current url, then just check out that url again (in another dir obviously) and move over the build directory (if inside the old one)
17:23:32 <Vorpal> and then rename the new one so it has the same name as the old one did (cmake by default uses absolute paths)
17:23:40 <cpressey> ♫ it's time for the (deviating) percolator, it's time for the (deviating) percolator ♫
17:23:50 <Phantom_Hoover> afaulds, also, I think it could be compiled easily enough.
17:24:30 <afaulds> but then the compiler must factor in every possible interpretation of the program?
17:25:09 <alise> not actually easy at all
17:25:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover is wrong
17:25:14 <alise> it would have to interpret
17:26:19 -!- Hiant has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]).
17:29:44 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean by "immunity"?
17:32:45 * cpressey didn't think that was possible.
17:34:49 <cpressey> afaulds: What (non-esoteric) languages are you experienced with?
17:37:19 <oklofok> i think it's bad to have commands be words, would be easier to change semantics of your lines if commands were one letter
17:38:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Or even if it were possible to define IF to PERCOLATE.
17:39:38 <oklofok> anyway, once A contains Z, A and Z can never be separated again afaiu, see also forte
17:40:16 <oklofok> you don't take the transitive closure of lookup
17:40:32 <oklofok> (you might wanna clarify this!)
17:40:56 <oklofok> maybe you do, i should read the rest
17:41:29 <Phantom_Hoover> 'A is A regardless of whatever the A register contains.
17:42:08 <oklofok> you can just put A to M and use M to modify the register A
17:42:21 <oklofok> no matter what A contains, you'll be modifying A
17:47:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I can preëmpt cpressey's response to the first of those.
17:47:55 <afaulds> "PHP IS NOT A VALID LANGUAGE"?
17:48:17 <afaulds> it's a horrible mess of functions
17:49:04 <afaulds> By "JS" I mean "JavaScript in Web Pages", not the command line thing
17:50:28 <cpressey> It would be quite a bit easier (I think) to write an interpreter for DP in either PHP or JS, than it would be in C, so I'm not sure why C came up.
17:50:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I am informed that JS is a nice language, though I have had bad experiences with it.
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17:51:18 <Sgeo> anonymous functions that capture variables from the enclosing scpe
17:51:59 <cpressey> a = 10; f = function(b) { return b + a; }; return f
17:52:47 <afaulds> someone on espernet said "DevPerc is just as useful as Brainfuck"
17:53:12 <afaulds> you can do a lot more with the latter that's actually useful
17:54:07 <zzo38> Do you know how to make synchronized audio in SDL?
17:54:35 <Sgeo> DevPerc isn't TC?
17:55:46 <afaulds> at least, I don't think 26 bytes max space is turing complete
17:55:49 <afaulds> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator
17:56:04 <zzo38> I don't think DevPerc is TC
17:56:05 <afaulds> and in reality you have significantly less
17:56:35 <afaulds> as there are no limits on input/output
17:56:44 <afaulds> so if you linked that to memory...
17:56:47 <Sgeo> I googled, and there's something for Amiga...
17:57:11 <madbrain> zzo: doesn't it involve making a callback?
17:57:30 <afaulds> I think I'll edit my page to clarify
17:57:38 <alise> Hey! I don't have Emacs!
17:58:42 <alise> afaulds: it reminds me of Fugue, a bit
17:58:56 <alise> also, once you define something once, you can never redefine it
17:59:09 <alise> but then you lose A
17:59:20 <alise> afaulds: i do think you should make commands single letters
17:59:23 <afaulds> you could then change A back by loosing Z
17:59:33 <afaulds> I deliberately chose not to
17:59:40 <afaulds> to make it HARDER to program in
18:00:03 <afaulds> if someone wants to make an easier single-letter derivative, go ahead
18:00:27 <alise> "/ - Line Comment" ;; not //?
18:01:57 <cpressey> In case anyone would like to hear the actual 'percolator' song I was referring to earlier, I found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S-Ti1Aqx1c
18:02:17 <afaulds> alise: yes. I had // but decided / was simpler
18:02:45 <afaulds> it's esoteric after all :D
18:10:16 <zzo38> madbrain: Audio in SDL does involve making a callback. It is a separate thread so I need synchroized
18:10:23 <cpressey> I've never written a re-entrant parser!
18:10:38 <oklofok> "<alise> also, once you define something once, you can never redefine it" "<alise> afaulds: i do think you should make commands single letters" <<< stop repeating me
18:10:57 <Sgeo> http://no-http.org/
18:11:01 <oklofok> first one is not true, as i elaborated
18:11:21 <afaulds> but you loose another variable
18:11:56 <oklofok> yes but you'll always have just one var that's unusable right
18:12:24 <afaulds> in fact to store anything you need to point one to another. so set y to x, then change x, and access it through y
18:13:39 -!- impomatic has left (?).
18:13:53 <zzo38> How can I make audio synchronize in SDL?
18:13:54 <afaulds> basically, it's really hard to do anything really
18:15:49 <cpressey> zzo38: I'm guessing here. A condition variable? So your audio thread can wait for your main thread?
18:16:29 <zzo38> cpressey: In SDL, you don't set up the audio thread using the thread commands, it automatically set up the audio thread using SDL_OpenAudio command.
18:17:42 <cpressey> zzo38: I don't see offhand how that would be a big obstacle; you can still create a global condition variable, and share it between the threads, unless I'm mistaken.
18:18:11 <cpressey> I mean, SDL may hate you, if you try, but...
18:18:43 <zzo38> But there doesn't seem to be a command to access the audio thread!
18:19:34 <fizzie> You have that audio callback, that's called in the audio thread.
18:20:24 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes it is called in the audio thread. But the audio thread is managed only by SDL itself.
18:21:09 <cpressey> zzo38: I think the idea is that you write code that is called in the audio thread; so, from that code, you can access that thread.
18:21:38 <fizzie> Yes, but why is that a problem? You can either spend time waiting in the callback if SDL doesn't mind, or use a separate synchronous-audio buffer so that the callback can happen fast (as long as the buffer's not empty).
18:21:50 <cpressey> For example you could call pthread_self() in the audio callback (assuming pthreads).
18:22:33 <zzo38> No, I have to use SDL threads. And I am not quite sure that the SDL threads are actually available for the audio thread, anyways.
18:23:05 <zzo38> There is SDL_LockAudio() and SDL_UnlockAudio()
18:23:16 <zzo38> I don't quite know where to put these in the right places.
18:23:20 <fizzie> That just makes the callback not be called during that time, IIRC.
18:24:01 <olsner> it sounds like you're doing something way too advanced for SDL :P
18:27:24 <cpressey> OK, well, if SDL is forcing you to use 'SDL threads' which aren't defined well enough to support synchronization, then, you can't synchronize :)
18:27:52 <fizzie> What I'd do would be: have a buffer of suitable size, and a mutex M and condition C. Then your synchronous audio write does (e.g.) "SDL_mutexP(M); while (buffer-is-full) SDL_CondWait(C, M); write_stuff_to_buffer(); SDL_mutexV(M);" and your audio callback does "SDL_mutexP(M); write_some_audio_out_from_buffer(); SDL_CondBroadcast(C); SDL_mutexV(M);".
18:27:55 <zzo38> SDL threads can synchronize, I think.
18:28:16 <zzo38> But SDL audio doesn't provide access to SDL thread, I think.
18:28:30 <zzo38> fizzie: I can try that, to see if it works.
18:28:40 <fizzie> You don't need the thread ID for anything; it's enough to know that it happens in a different thread.
18:29:04 <fizzie> cpressey: There's SDL_ThreadID() which returns the current thread ID, but I see no use for that here.
18:29:08 <zzo38> There is. But it says the call back function "This function usually runs in a separate thread"
18:30:47 <cpressey> OK; I agree, if SDL provides condvars like so, I guess you don't need to know what the current thread is to use them.
18:30:54 <Sgeo> Well, my school mandated AV is being slow
18:31:06 <Sgeo> It seems to have made EICAR look like a 0-byte file
18:31:15 <Sgeo> Then, a few minutes later, pop up a warning
18:31:34 <zzo38> It says it *usually* runs in separate thread, but does somethings doesn't?
18:33:09 <fizzie> I can't find the "sometimes" bit in the SDL docs, but on the other hand I can't find any reference to the audio thread either. You could take a look at the code. I think it's very likely it runs in a separate thread at least on those platforms where the whole threading stuff is supported.
18:33:52 <zzo38> For now I just have it unsynchronized
18:34:26 <cpressey> if (SDL_ThreadID() == main_tid) abort("SDL hates me");
18:34:50 <fizzie> cpressey: abort() doesn't take an argument. :p
18:36:50 <zzo38> Why do they have to use RapidShare for the BytePusher programs?
18:41:06 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:43:07 <cpressey> "we will not spy out the files that our clients faithfully upload onto RapidShare, not now nor in future. We are against upload control and guarantee you that your files are safe with us and will not be opened by anyone else than yourself, unless you distribute the download link."
18:43:12 <cpressey> RapidShare: the Swiss bank of the internet.
18:44:54 <fizzie> I guess you could make things very hard-synchronized to the audio output, too; make the audio buffer size equal to one BytePusher frame -- 256 samples -- and have the audio callback SDL_PushEvent() a user-defined "compute one more frame" event; then have a main event loop that executes one frame's worth of instructions whenever it gets that event. SDL_PushEvent is threadsafe, you should be able to call it whether or not the audio callback is in a separate threa
18:44:54 <fizzie> d or not. That sort of thing will probably break pretty badly if you don't manage to run the 65536 ByteByteJump instructions fast enough, so that the events start to pile up.
18:45:10 <alise> Vorpal: do you still have Helvetica Neue?
18:45:41 <cpressey> afaulds: German-owned but run out of Switzerland
18:47:25 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: do you still have Helvetica Neue? <-- no clue. Why?
18:47:32 <afaulds> I judged based on their accent and currency. There are some videos from the rapidshare marketing dept. on the site
18:47:57 <Vorpal> alise, I presume I have it somewhere, even if not installed
18:48:12 <alise> Vorpal: because I gave it to you and I'd like it back :-P
18:48:26 <Vorpal> alise, ah but you gave me a copy, that is how digital stuff works
18:48:47 <alise> yes, but the machine that i have it on,
18:48:55 <alise> without a keyboard or mouse
18:48:59 <alise> so i would quite appreciate the file
18:49:07 <Vorpal> alise, will look in a few seconds
18:49:27 <Vorpal> alise, right after I get rid of this irritating fly
18:51:16 <alise> luxi mono sucks on linux, huh...
18:51:18 <Vorpal> alise, where do you like me to scp them? I assume you can set up a temp account on some suitable server. The one I normally use is not available atm due to data center problems
18:51:33 <alise> Vorpal: filebin.ca
18:51:40 <alise> use tor if you must
18:52:03 <Vorpal> alise, why would I trust tor. Probably NSA behind it ;)
18:52:03 <afaulds> Ohai wareya I see you found #esoteric too
18:52:17 <alise> Vorpal: Uhh... no.
18:52:26 <alise> afaulds: he found it way before you :)
18:52:40 <afaulds> did you hear about all that stuff on wikileaks FROM tor?
18:52:41 * Sgeo growls at amount of homework
18:53:08 <alise> afaulds: in this case, the data leaking is unimportant
18:55:35 * alise gets Monaco on Linux
18:58:22 <alise> unfortunately no bold version and the false bold is hideous
18:58:35 <Vorpal> alise, http://filebin.ca/rauedb/fonts.pax.xz
18:58:53 <alise> Openly breaking the law? Shock!
18:59:07 <alise> Thanks for making me install xz. I'm sure the file's huge. :P
18:59:07 <Vorpal> alise, well I don't. You own a legal copy of them.
18:59:25 <Vorpal> alise, what is wrong with xz?
18:59:27 <alise> ...I still think it's illegal; redistribution is prohibited.
18:59:30 <alise> Nothing, just amusing.
18:59:56 <alise> Vorpal: I don't suppose I gave you any Monaco ones?
18:59:58 <Vorpal> alise, arch packages use xz these days
19:00:01 <alise> Thanks a lot, btw.
19:00:08 <Vorpal> alise, not any that I saw in that directory
19:00:12 <Vorpal> and if they are elsewhere: no clue
19:00:28 <Vorpal> alise, it had LucidaGrande though
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19:01:31 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I would be surprised if xz is not installed by standard on modern distros
19:01:37 <alise> Not in Ubuntu, it seems.
19:01:46 <alise> <Vorpal> I said modern distros
19:02:16 <Vorpal> alise, btw I did consider using shar + compress first or something silly like that
19:02:27 <Vorpal> alise, but I didn't have the relevant stuff installed
19:02:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did you install lzma stuff?
19:02:53 <alise> Ahh, Helvetica Neue is filling the gap of a nice sans font.
19:02:54 <Vorpal> since xz replaced lzma
19:03:12 <Vorpal> alise, nothing wrong with dejavu sans. Very readable on screen
19:03:23 <alise> I don't like it in XChat; XChat renders text strangely.
19:03:37 <alise> I think it fucks with the letter-spacing; it /definitely/ has too little line spacing.
19:03:41 <Vorpal> alise, dejavu sans mono is perfect in xchat in my experience
19:03:52 <alise> Allow me to quote ais523.
19:04:00 <alise> 09:52:57 <Sgeo> alise, you don't use Dejavu Sans Mono?
19:04:01 <alise> 09:53:08 <ais523> Sgeo: monospace for /IRC/?
19:04:07 <alise> 09:53:23 <ais523> I know it's common, but I can't see any reason why you'd do that except to make myndzi's /o/ thing work properly
19:04:17 <alise> I have the support of ais523; my position is therefore unquestionable.
19:04:32 <Vorpal> alise, um services output
19:04:44 <alise> Because I ask services for help every day.
19:04:48 <alise> (It's still readable, just not perfectly aligned.)
19:05:05 <Vorpal> alise, hm, I guess running an irc network means you need to do that quite a bit more often
19:05:30 <Vorpal> alise, also other output than help
19:05:39 <Vorpal> though mostly of interest to opers I guess
19:05:59 <alise> Monaco renders surprisingly well here.
19:06:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, xchat?
19:06:26 <Vorpal> it doesn't line up here at all
19:06:40 <Vorpal> I'm using same type of nick alignment as xchat does
19:06:54 <alise> I love how Monaco 9 is the bitmapped version.
19:06:59 <Vorpal> that is, nicks aligned right against a separator, and text aligned left on the other side
19:07:09 <alise> Not a terribly legible font on a high-ppi display, though.
19:07:40 <Vorpal> alise, bitmapped fonts are rather dpi dependent indeed
19:08:26 <zzo38> I use monospace for IRC
19:08:50 <cpressey> isspace() won't compain if you pass it a pointer
19:09:04 <Vorpal> damn, alise beat me to it
19:09:10 <alise> cpressey: that's gotta be some usage though :D
19:09:16 <cpressey> I knew it was a macro -- that's no real excuse
19:09:26 * alise thinks about how to fix it
19:09:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, gcc? -Wall -Wextra -pedantic ?
19:09:41 <zzo38> There are a few ways to fix the macro
19:09:48 <Vorpal> that might give you some reaction
19:10:47 <alise> Hmm, I can't think how exactly.
19:10:58 <zzo38> Which alignments are common in IRC? (I guess the one Vorpal specified can mean all message from anyone lined up with each other)
19:11:13 <alise> zzo38: that, and left-aligned
19:11:20 <cpressey> Vorpal: I think I'm already using all warning options
19:11:22 <Vorpal> zzo38, left aligned "<nick> message" is also common
19:11:30 <alise> XChat can actually do that.
19:11:31 <Vorpal> don't think I seen any other ones
19:12:07 <zzo38> Vorpal: Some have the time, I think? But usually they are all aligned due to HH:MM:SS with leading zeros
19:12:07 <Vorpal> alise, I find that the xchat way of aligning it increases readability
19:12:18 <Vorpal> compared to left alignment
19:12:20 <alise> Vorpal: Tell that to Shakespeare.
19:12:20 <cpressey> just tried -ansi -pedantic -- no change with those either
19:12:38 <alise> Vorpal: After all, plays are set in the left-aligned format.
19:12:43 <zzo38> cpressey: Maybe, change the macro to make it different
19:13:06 <alise> wtf @ Emacs set-background-color
19:13:07 <cpressey> arabic chatrooms might do well right-aligned
19:13:09 <alise> it doesn't let you enter fucking rgb!
19:13:28 <Sgeo> XChat has a varying number of spaces between timestamp and nick
19:13:29 <alise> only when called from lisp
19:13:37 <Vorpal> alise, yeah but doing it this way by hand would be more annoying. Also quite often longer lines. No line in the last screen-full had to be split over more than one line on screen for me
19:13:46 <Vorpal> well, except that one I just said XD
19:13:52 <alise> what you think is 10pt
19:13:53 <olsner> apparently, the isspace macro includes a cast to (int)
19:13:53 <alise> is actually smaller
19:13:57 <alise> than what the rest of my programs think is 10pt
19:14:04 <zzo38> Vorpal: In my computer there is not aligned in either of those two ways. But instead it use color-coding. Messages are colored blue!
19:14:05 <Vorpal> alise, it probably got confused by DPI?
19:14:12 <Sgeo> Is there anything that I like that alise won't hate during my duration of liking it
19:14:18 <alise> Vorpal: yeah, 96 is a really confusing dpi setting
19:14:19 <zzo38> olsner: Why does it include a cast to (int)?
19:14:26 <alise> maybe X11 guesses it as something else and Emacs looks at that instead
19:14:30 <Vorpal> alise, I thought you said you used high-DPI?
19:14:33 <alise> which you are now doing manually
19:14:35 <Vorpal> or was that another monitor
19:14:39 <alise> Vorpal: yes, but shit works better set to 96 dpi :P
19:14:46 <cpressey> olsner: at least it had the decency to segfault when i passed it the pointer -- i could have spent a good few hours in confusion if it hasn't
19:14:48 <Vorpal> alise, as for x11 guess. Let me find the program
19:14:50 <zzo38> Change the macro if you do not like it
19:15:04 <Vorpal> $ xdpyinfo | grep resolution
19:15:04 <Vorpal> resolution: 90x88 dots per inch
19:15:06 <alise> greaaat, it doesn't let me try Monospace 10.5 pt
19:15:16 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Downloads/helvetica$ xdpyinfo | grep resolution
19:15:16 <alise> resolution: 96x96 dots per inch
19:15:20 <cpressey> zzo38: I've written my own isspace() before, and I'll do it again if I have to :)
19:15:23 <Vorpal> I'm absolutely certain I have square pixels
19:15:48 <Vorpal> dimensions: 1680x1050 pixels (474x303 millimeters)
19:15:53 <Vorpal> that doesn't look right
19:16:07 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Downloads/helvetica$ xrdb -query
19:16:24 <zzo38> cpressey: Which program are you writing? If you are writing a C program, you can also try using Enhanced CWEB (if you have TeX installed).
19:16:26 <alise> Vorpal: i doubt your monitor is that big.
19:16:47 <alise> More specifically, it tells libXft to use said DPI. If it exists,
19:16:48 <alise> libXft adds that value (a double) to the patterns it sends on to
19:16:48 <alise> If it does not exist, libXft uses DisplayHeight * 25.4 / DisplayHeightMM.
19:16:48 <alise> I believe it uses those two (prefering the Xft.dpi value) only if the
19:16:48 <alise> application hasn't already specified FC_DPI in the fontconfig pattern.
19:16:50 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. it seems closer to 470x300 mm
19:17:15 <alise> Vorpal: oh, then it is that big
19:17:22 <Sgeo> alise forgot to breathe
19:17:25 <Vorpal> alise, and yes I have a large desktop monitor
19:17:34 <alise> what's that in diagonal inches?
19:17:37 <fizzie> I used to get something really confusing out of xdpyinfo in a former multi-monitor setup, but now when everything's a different screen, it just lists them separately.
19:18:08 <Vorpal> alise, I don't have any ruler with any non-SI scale alas. But it is longer than my longest ruler. My longest ruler is 50 cm
19:18:41 <alise> they don't print inches on the other side of the ruler in Sweden?
19:18:51 <Vorpal> alise, not commonly no
19:19:02 <alise> i guess they only do that in the uk since inches are occasionally used by normal people and always used by old people
19:19:13 <olsner> I think we stopped using inches like a couple of hundred years ago
19:19:15 <alise> perhaps because we state height in feet and inches; it's for *really* short people
19:19:16 <Vorpal> alise, Sweden been on metric way longer
19:19:17 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/xdpyinfo -- no idea how accurate *those* are.
19:19:25 <Vorpal> olsner, yeah something like that
19:19:31 <zzo38> I use both metric and inches, depending on what is being measured
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19:20:11 <fizzie> I think I've had a combined metric/inch ruler, but certainly not all of them have had those.
19:20:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I seen ones, but I don't have any such myself
19:20:53 <ais523> fizzie: the vast majority of rulers here in the UK have both inches and centimetres
19:20:55 <zzo38> For measuring the temperature of an oven, I will use Fahrenheit but for weather and most other temperature I can use Celsius, but for absolute temperature, and physics and other science stuff, Kelvin is the proper measure of temperature that I prefer.
19:21:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do you call those "not really a ruler" things that were used before calculators were invented?
19:21:18 <Vorpal> I have one of those somewhere I think
19:21:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Slide rules, you mean?
19:21:20 <alise> Vorpal: WJW, Emacs stores font HEIGHT in 1/10 pts.
19:21:36 <zzo38> For measuring typefaces I can use points instead of inches or metres
19:21:41 <cpressey> It's too bad English doesn't have a single term to mean "the current state of a parsing process".
19:21:43 <alise> Vorpal: WJW = Wow Just Wow
19:21:51 <cpressey> "parse_state" is so... unappealing.
19:21:55 <Sgeo> alise, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-712-j
19:22:01 <Vorpal> alise, ah, hm... points here is not pixels is it?
19:22:01 <alise> cpressey: just use "state"
19:22:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: And according to a tape measure, that monitor is something like 518x322 mm, so it wasn't so far off.
19:22:05 <alise> Vorpal: of course not
19:22:12 <cpressey> alise: If this language had namespaces, SURE!
19:22:16 <oklofok> come up with your own word
19:22:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, slide ruler it seems like yeah
19:22:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think mine is broken perhaps. And I have no idea how it is used
19:22:39 <alise> 105 1/10 pts seems to give me what I want, proper 10pt.
19:22:41 <Vorpal> not sure where I got it from even
19:22:50 <oklofok> cpressey: i made a conlang once with namespaces
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19:24:18 <fizzie> alise: The HTK toolkit measures times in units of 1/10 microseconds, or 100 nanoseconds; that's a bit strange unit too. (I *think* they've chosen that because then a single sample at 16 kHz is exactly 625 "units", an integral number... but who knows.)
19:27:00 <fizzie> (The sampling rate option, also, is not the frequency, but the period: the very obvious "SOURCERATE = 625" means a 16 kHz sampling rate.)
19:28:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, it would be an integer if you used nanosenconds too
19:30:05 <fizzie> Yes, but then you'd end up with larger numbers.
19:30:15 <Vorpal> and that way 32 KHz would be an integer too I think. Unlike currently.
19:30:53 <fizzie> Yes, but people don't much do >16 kHz for speech processing.
19:31:21 <alise> Wow, making an Emacs colour scheme is a bitch.
19:32:54 <fizzie> I'm not sure what sort of integers (or floats) they use for the times, though. If it's 0.1 µs, and 32-bit signed integers, that would mean the largest possible time would be...
19:32:57 <fizzie> !perl print 2**31/1000/1000/10
19:33:03 <fizzie> That's not very many seconds.
19:34:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, with 2^64 it is quite a enough though
19:34:49 <Vorpal> and why signed for time?
19:35:08 <Vorpal> "time since start of whatever you want to measure" seems like it should be unsigned
19:35:10 <fizzie> People tend to use signed integers everywhere, no matter if it makes sense or not.
19:35:36 <zzo38> Vorpal: For 64-bit UNIX timestamps, I think it should be signed. For 32-bit UNIX timestamps it should be unsigned.
19:36:13 <cpressey> I love English. I love how an endeavour, like making an Emacs colour scheme, can "be a bitch", but if you said "The act of making an Emacs colour scheme is bitchy", or "My Emacs colour scheme is bitchen'", you mean completely different things.
19:36:18 <fizzie> These times are from start of an audio sample, though, where negative values are a lot less meaningful.
19:36:23 <cpressey> The second one has very shaky semantics.
19:36:44 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes in that case, negative values are not generally useful.
19:37:30 <Vorpal> zzo38, mhm was not about such timestamps though
19:38:12 <Vorpal> hm does using one-complement for negative numbers require separate signed/unsigned addition/subtraction?
19:41:25 <cpressey> struct cell *c = malloc(sizeof(struct cell));
19:41:36 <cpressey> C has such a nice liturgical rhythm to it.
19:41:47 <fizzie> cpressey: According to comp.lang.c, the preferred way to write that is: struct cell *c = malloc(sizeof *c);
19:41:55 <zzo38> Liturgical rhythm?
19:42:10 <fizzie> cpressey: Since then you need to just update one place when you change the type. Both *work*, of course.
19:42:24 <zzo38> You can also write a macro, of course.
19:42:32 <Vorpal> <fizzie> cpressey: According to comp.lang.c, the preferred way to write that is: struct cell *c = malloc(sizeof *c); <-- why?
19:42:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: <fizzie> cpressey: Since then you need to just update one place when you change the type. Both *work*, of course.
19:42:47 <Vorpal> ah wait, fizzie said that same second as I asked
19:43:09 <cpressey> < fizzie> Vorpal: <fizzie> cpressey:
19:43:19 <cpressey> (just wanted the palindome there)
19:43:22 <fizzie> <cpressey> < fizzie> Vorpal: <fizzie> cpressey: <-- that looks funny.
19:43:46 <Vorpal> <fizzie> <cpressey> < fizzie> Vorpal: <fizzie> cpressey: <-- so does that. Also wtf at current lag to server...
19:44:28 * Sgeo blinks a few times
19:44:31 <Sgeo> There was a new UF
19:44:45 <Sgeo> On a day that previous UF comics were about the day. This one wasn't
19:44:46 <zzo38> @d NEW(_1,_2) _1@[*_2@]=malloc(sizeof(_1))
19:45:02 <zzo38> That is one way to write a macro for doing like that, if you want to.
19:45:20 <Sgeo> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20100911&mode=classic
19:45:31 <alise> zzo38: so how would you write isspace, given a macro _isspace that does what isspace(x) normally does (without type checking), such that it fails at compile time if the argument is not a char?
19:45:55 <zzo38> alise: Probably use some GNU extension command
19:46:04 <alise> Sgeo: I still don't understand.
19:46:08 <alise> zzo38: I mean, standard C.
19:46:10 <zzo38> There is one to check for compatible types
19:46:17 <cpressey> Um. Writing a re-entrant parser in C is just like using continuations, isn't it? I'm going to have to write a trampoline, aren't I? Half the people here are going "ofc" and the other half are going "wat", aren't they?
19:46:32 * Sgeo may have been mistaken
19:46:46 <alise> cpressey: Uhh, you could just pass parser state around.
19:46:48 <zzo38> alise: I don't know if there is a way. Although it can probably be made to make a warning
19:46:52 <alise> cpressey: And use a recursive-descent model.
19:47:18 <alise> zzo38: Well, hm... do you know what I have to do to T to make foo[T] an error?
19:47:22 <alise> foo[pointer] works, so...
19:47:28 <alise> foo[(something) x], maybe?
19:47:37 <cpressey> alise: re-entrant means I can't recurse (in the sense of one C function calling another).
19:47:48 <alise> cpressey: Why not?
19:48:04 <cpressey> alise: well, not unless I wanted to mess with C's stack. I don't...
19:48:06 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reentrant_%28subroutine%29
19:48:10 <alise> Nothing here suggests that.
19:48:14 <alise> Are we using different definitions?
19:48:50 <cpressey> I mean, I want to say parse("(a (b c (d)") and say parse(" e f) g)") later.
19:49:03 <cpressey> with control returning to me in between
19:49:04 <zzo38> I don't think it is ever an error in C to add wrong types, but it is always a warning.
19:49:05 <alise> That's not what re-entrant means.
19:49:10 <alise> cpressey: setjmp/longjmp
19:49:13 <Sgeo> Ok, I'm hating the new UF
19:49:20 <Sgeo> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20100901&mode=classic
19:49:23 <cpressey> alise: That's messing with C's stack.
19:49:25 <Sgeo> I don't even find this one funny
19:49:27 <alise> cpressey: it's done for you
19:49:33 <Sgeo> Just.. almost, due to the self reference
19:49:43 <alise> "setjmp() unless the setjmp pointer is null" at the start of parse
19:49:48 <alise> then null it out before longjmp()ing in parse
19:49:51 <alise> when you reach the end of the string
19:49:53 <alise> store the parsed-so-far location in a global variable
19:50:03 <alise> cpressey: it's munging the stack just as much as call-withc
19:50:07 <alise> *call-with-current-continuation is.
19:50:26 <alise> Sgeo: * Sgeo blinks a few times
19:50:26 <alise> <Sgeo> There was a new UF
19:50:26 <alise> <Sgeo> On a day that previous UF comics were about the day. This one wasn't
19:50:30 <alise> Sgeo: this is utterly incomprehensible
19:50:34 <zzo38> The only real problem I have with Enhanced CWEB so far, is lack of support for variadic macros (even if the C compiler supports it).
19:51:00 <fizzie> You can do that -- parse("(a"), return of control, parse(" b)") -- just by writing parse() so that it manually keeps enough state somewhere between calls. (Then it won't be the-usual-definition-of-reentrant, though.)
19:51:05 <Sgeo> alise, for some reason, I was under the impression that every 9/11, Illiad put up a comic relating to it. I was mistaken
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19:51:48 <Sgeo> Illiad has lost his nut: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20100831
19:51:55 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can stick anything in front of "Studies" and get a degree in it.
19:51:57 <alise> User Friendly is such a terrible comic.
19:52:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Faeces Studies
19:52:11 <zzo38> Do you have a degree of "Studies Studies"?
19:52:15 <Sgeo> alise, only after this resumption
19:52:39 <fizzie> Sgeo: You do know those have been submitted by readers, right? (Just checking.)
19:52:45 <alise> Sgeo: it appears that these are guest strips.
19:52:50 <alise> Sgeo: i found this out by reading the comments.
19:52:51 * Phantom_Hoover wants to make a university reference but is too woefully naïve to do so.
19:52:59 <Sgeo> fizzie, now I do..
19:53:09 <fizzie> "The last few weeks of cartoons, and the next week or two coming, are submissions in the UF by UFies contest. There are some talented and, um, unusual minds out there." -- it says so right on the front page.
19:53:58 * Sgeo failed to notice :/
19:54:38 * Sgeo now finds that he relates to http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20100901&mode=classic
19:55:17 <alise> if UF was like http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/10aug/uf014231.gif every day, I'd read it
19:56:29 * cpressey just broke his "don't read UF links either" rule
19:57:22 <Vorpal> I stopped reading uf ages ago.
19:57:23 <alise> cpressey: psht, http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/10aug/uf014231.gif is great
19:57:28 <alise> primarily because it's nothing like UF is or has ever been
19:57:48 <alise> i dunno i'd read a strip of those
19:57:56 <alise> cpressey: do you like Dinosaur Comics?
19:58:09 <cpressey> alise: ... is that a generic term? probably not.
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19:58:39 <alise> cpressey: http://qwantz.com/
19:58:45 <alise> Only the greatest comic in the world.
19:59:00 <cpressey> Oh come now. Nothing can exceed Pokey the Penguin.
19:59:12 <alise> Sure, it may use the exact same panels each time, but nowhere else are there intellectual dinosaurs using uppercase a lot and being hilarious.
19:59:19 <alise> cpressey: I think Dinosaur Comics may actually predate it...
20:00:03 <alise> cpressey: I'm actually surprised you've never heard of it; it is most excellent.
20:00:21 <cpressey> ALSO, largely PREFER IT THAT WAY.
20:00:27 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:00:33 <alise> cpressey: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1794
20:00:36 <alise> If you do not laugh, you have no soul.
20:02:17 <Sgeo> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20100811
20:02:43 <cpressey> Or, perhaps #esoteric, which is by and large the funniest thing in the universe, has spoiled me.
20:03:39 -!- augur has joined.
20:05:09 <alise> cpressey: Read the Dinosaur Comics archive backwards. I guarantee you will hit something hilarious in ten clicks or less.
20:11:02 <olsner> I usually don't get the dinosaur comics
20:13:29 <cpressey> In C, return should be like ++
20:14:13 <cpressey> printf("Count is now %d", return(count) = foo + bar);
20:15:43 <cpressey> now why does gcc not understand that strdup was *not* implicitly declared, because I #include<string.h>'d?
20:16:20 <Sgeo> alise, when did I introduce you to the whole "idiot requesting efnet#secondlife issue?
20:16:32 <Sgeo> You said it was a troll, and ignoring it would make it go away
20:16:52 <Sgeo> Guess what was asked in there about 9min ago
20:16:59 <Sgeo> Not that anyone's responding
20:17:03 <Sgeo> Or even active enough to care
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20:17:22 <zzo38> cpressey: I don't know. I have not had that problem
20:18:10 <cpressey> usually, neither do I. something of a mystery
20:18:15 <fizzie> cpressey: strdup is not standard, so you don't get it in a standard-conforming mode.
20:18:26 <olsner> cpressey: could be related to the feature test macros mentioned in the manpage
20:19:07 <cpressey> fizzie: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/strdup.html ?
20:19:18 <fizzie> cpressey: Standard C, I mean.
20:19:47 <fizzie> cpressey: Something like -std=c99 or -ansi will make it not pull in strdup by default in <string.h>. But usually you get it by default.
20:19:54 <fizzie> Of course it's in *some* standards.
20:19:56 <cpressey> fizzie: ok. i am doing the mode conform thing
20:21:26 <cpressey> malloc-then-strcpy shall suffice
20:22:01 <fizzie> If you compute the length for malloc, you could memcpy too.
20:22:01 <zzo38> Maybe I should add into Enhanced CWEB, the feature for telling it to add something after the next semicolon, and a code to tell it to add something at the beginning of the current { } block
20:22:12 <olsner> don't forget to null-check after malloc
20:22:23 -!- yiyus has joined.
20:24:30 <cpressey> my data structure for s-expressions is a bit wack anyway. i'm not going for 'clean' this weekend.
20:24:48 <fizzie> You're not going to clean yourself at all this weekend? How... dirty!
20:25:10 <Vorpal> cpressey, how can something that simple be a bit wack?
20:25:14 <oerjan> 10:45:16 <afaulds> wait isn't it swiss?
20:25:14 <oerjan> 10:45:24 <afaulds> they use euros
20:25:22 <oerjan> iirc switzerland doesn't use euros
20:25:54 <oerjan> they're not in the eu. not that that has stopped a number of other countries.
20:26:03 <cpressey> Vorpal: since you want to know -- only cons-cells have self-describing types. atoms don't. this is a bit wack.
20:29:26 <oklofok> "<olsner> I usually don't get the dinosaur comics" <<< yay me neither
20:30:28 <Vorpal> <olsner> don't forget to null-check after malloc <-- and remember to check that fclose() didn't fail
20:30:42 <cpressey> and remember to not code in C, basically
20:30:59 <Vorpal> cpressey, unless you are writing a kernel.
20:32:18 <olsner> eugh, close-calls that can fail... I've never understood what the hell I'm supposed to do with an error like that
20:32:49 <zzo38> cpressey: Why not code in C?
20:32:55 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:33:05 <Vorpal> xz: Adjusted LZMA2 dictionary size from 64 MiB to 56 MiB to not exceed the memory usage limit of 602 MiB
20:33:11 <zzo38> Code in Enhanced CWEB instead.
20:33:36 -!- contingo has joined.
20:33:51 <cpressey> zzo38: don't tempt me! :) Actually, I might translate some of my C code to Enhanced CWEB, some time...
20:34:09 -!- wareya has joined.
20:34:14 <Vorpal> olsner, fclose() can fail due to 1) bad file descriptor 2) stuff in stdio buffer (if file is buffered) left to write, and that write failing
20:34:22 <Vorpal> oh and if the underlying close() fails
20:34:53 <Vorpal> which can fail with EBADF (bad file descriptor), EINTR (interrupted by signal) and EIO (I/O error)
20:35:03 <Vorpal> I/O error... how specific
20:35:15 <oerjan> 11:22:24 <cpressey> Pstate. Like Psmith.
20:35:21 <zzo38> cpressey: Which programs? And if you need help you can ask me some things about Enhanced CWEB
20:35:21 <oerjan> another buck godot fan?
20:36:06 <cpressey> zzo38: I was thinking stringie (my underload interpreter) would be a good candidate. I'll make sure to ask you :)
20:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I vaguely want to, but I have concluded that with Archive Binge maxed out at the highest rate possible it will still take most of a year to read.
20:38:09 <oerjan> cpressey: or is that from wodehouse? (who i haven't read but google says so)
20:38:27 <cpressey> oerjan: Oh. That's Wodehouse, yes.
20:38:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I read the archives in about a week. Not in one go, but split out over 4 weeks or so iirc
20:40:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm about half a year ago I think
20:40:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, quite a lot still
20:40:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it isn't much worse than IWC in comic count iirc
20:40:48 <Vorpal> maybe even less than iwc
20:41:12 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I don't recall how long it took me to go through the archives, but not too many weeks. This was.. around 2005-2006, I think, though.
20:43:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, IWC took a few weeks too
20:46:47 <cpressey> fixing the wack now. if you car a non-list you die. yeah, that seems fair
20:46:59 * Sgeo groumbles about Perl
20:49:38 <cpressey> < cpressey> Vorpal: since you want to know -- only cons-cells have self-describing types. atoms don't. this is a bit wack.
20:58:09 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm why should putting a non-list in cdr be invalid?
20:58:32 <Vorpal> well, a non-cons-cell rather
20:58:34 <cpressey> Vorpal: a) it shouldn't b) ask Haskell
20:58:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, so what did you mean with <cpressey> fixing the wack now. if you car a non-list you die. yeah, that seems fair
20:59:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, sounds like it should be compile time error (if it is compiled)
20:59:42 <Vorpal> well not for scheme, since you could redefine car there
20:59:50 <EgoBot> (:) :: a -> [a] -> [a]
21:00:40 <Vorpal> hm I wonder how much space using squashfs for various things will save
21:00:55 <oerjan> iirc scheme _requires_ non-list cdrs for its vararg syntax
21:01:20 <oerjan> (define (func first-arg . rest) ...)
21:01:22 <Vorpal> eh? doesn't it pass the varargs as a list parameter?
21:01:33 <Vorpal> oh you mean the syntax?
21:01:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, was that "yeah" to "syntax"?
21:02:48 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I was riffing on that Haskell doesn't do improper lists
21:03:49 <oerjan> of course in haskell (,) is essentially a cons without type restrictions
21:04:16 <oerjan> with the disadvantage you cannot have a recursive type for it
21:06:18 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: nuts to "sensible"
21:07:05 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, by "sensible" I mean "permissible under the type system without algebraic data type kludges."
21:07:08 <Vorpal> excellent. Using squashfs cut space wasted on icc by half
21:08:25 <Vorpal> wait, less than half. Misread 1.2 GB as 2.1 GB somehow
21:09:10 <oklofok> Vorpal: maybe your brain is upside down
21:13:45 <oerjan> Vorpal descends from the lost umop ap!sdn tribe
21:15:19 <Vorpal> oerjan, perhaps. My ancestry is clouded in mystery.
21:16:50 <Vorpal> oklofok, I had that for quite some time now?
21:17:02 <Vorpal> oklofok, and because I wanted to change. And why not this one
21:17:18 <Vorpal> oklofok, I assume you get the dual (or maybe triple) reference?
21:17:28 <oerjan> oklofok: so he can go snicker-snack, of course
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21:20:46 <oklofok> Vorpal: if i got the reference, i would've been satisfied
21:20:54 <oklofok> SO SORRY ABOUT NOT BEING AS SMART AS YOU
21:21:31 <Vorpal> oklofok, um. the one oerjan mentioned of course
21:21:35 <Vorpal> oklofok, and then nethack too
21:21:41 <Vorpal> which references the first thing
21:21:50 <Vorpal> that which oerjan referred to
21:22:03 <Vorpal> oklofok, plus I think D&D references the whole thing too
21:22:13 <oklofok> "<oerjan> oklofok: so he can go snicker-snack, of course" <<< this?
21:22:33 <Vorpal> oklofok, you know what oerjan is talking about surely?
21:22:44 <Vorpal> oklofok, don't you know the source of "To be or not to be"?
21:22:48 <Vorpal> that is about as famous
21:23:16 <cpressey> Same part of the world, though.
21:23:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, you mean written rather than taking place I presume?
21:23:44 * cpressey thinks Vorpal is trying to lead oklofok down a rabbit-hole
21:23:51 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh certainly
21:24:26 <Vorpal> cpressey, though actually I think you are confusing the two most famous works of that author here.
21:24:35 <wareya> Get your jabberwockys out of here
21:24:49 <oklofok> okay so it's some sort of alise-story reference?
21:24:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, you presumably meant through a visual reflection device
21:24:58 <oklofok> i've read the first few pages in lojban
21:25:24 * oerjan concludes that oklofok really has never read it
21:25:45 <Vorpal> oklofok, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabberwocky
21:26:04 <oerjan> it was also a monty python movie
21:26:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Vonlebio.
21:26:13 <oklofok> i do not watch monty python
21:27:03 <Vorpal> oklofok, also it is is "Alice" not "Alise"
21:27:10 <oerjan> i'll just send this new evidence to the Society for Proving Oklo* is not Human
21:27:57 <oklofok> they should know this by now
21:27:58 <Vorpal> oerjan, though that looked grammatically awkward
21:28:37 <oerjan> my grammar _perfectly_ acceptably always!
21:28:39 <oklofok> is to be or not to be from hamlet?
21:28:42 <Vorpal> oh wait, it wasn't "i'll just send this new evidence to the (Society for Proving Oklo*) is not Human". I read it as "Provoking Oklo*" first time
21:28:48 <Vorpal> that explains my confusion
21:29:37 <Vorpal> oklofok, anyway you could just have googled this nick
21:29:45 <oklofok> i have not read that either
21:29:59 <oklofok> i've read part of othello, but it was really stupid so i stopped
21:30:05 <oerjan> in fact the current leading theory is that he's a mutated lifeform from a natural nuclear reactor in africa
21:30:23 <Vorpal> I have read Hamlet. Non-modernised version.
21:30:23 <oklofok> the last thing i read was idiot last year
21:30:32 <oklofok> before that, probably something like harry potter :D
21:31:09 <Vorpal> and yes Hamlet is really bad IMO. Sure some famous quotes. But how irrational they act. It's like the let their feelings override their rationality!
21:31:14 <Vorpal> which always irritates me
21:31:36 <Vorpal> in any work of fiction, as well as in real life
21:31:43 <oerjan> oklofok got imported to finland together with a large uranium shipment
21:32:18 <oklofok> yay that reference i do get.
21:32:42 <Vorpal> oklofok, what reference?
21:32:43 <oerjan> oklofok: BECAUSE IT'S TRUE
21:32:49 <alise> Vorpal: err, Hamlet is excellent
21:33:29 <Vorpal> alise, oh certainly excellently written and so on. It is just that the stupidity of the characters actions annoys me.
21:33:52 <Vorpal> alise, with some rational thinking it could have been solved without everyone dying IMO
21:34:00 <Vorpal> just a few dying that is
21:34:05 <alise> Yes, nobody has ever written fiction about the effects of emotions on people.
21:34:11 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, people don't think rationally. Get over it.
21:34:26 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, that annoys me. That is what I'm trying to say!
21:34:51 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, I know it annoys you, and it really shouldn't.
21:35:42 <alise> We should act more rationally, but that doesn't mean fiction about it should anger you
21:35:52 <alise> If anything, it should make you happy, demonstrating what over-emotionality does.
21:35:54 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, the world would be a better place if people thought before following their emotions. I'm not saying emotions are bad. Just that they should be moderated by rational thought
21:36:18 <alise> Vorpal thinks he's a Vulcan.
21:36:28 <wareya> Yeah, it's impossible for people to write about emotions. There's no way that someone could possibly describe how feelings affect thought, at all! It's physically impossible!
21:36:34 <alise> Yes, yes you do. Or rather you wish you were.
21:36:37 <Vorpal> alise, it doesn't seem to have helped much sadly
21:36:53 <oklofok> Vorpal is right, you others are stupid
21:36:56 <oerjan> Vorpal: if people didn't behave idiotic, there wouldn't be half as many tragedies. or comedies, i guess.
21:37:00 <Vonlebio> Well, wishing you were a Vulcan isn't as bad as being under the delusion that you are one.
21:37:00 <alise> The Tennant/Stewart production of Hamlet was <3.
21:37:10 <alise> (The BBC-broadcast version, at least; I didn't see it.)
21:37:24 <wareya> Before someone can think before they feel they have to understand what the feelings are coming from and what they actually mean.
21:37:32 <cpressey> all fiction should be recordings of the linear motions of platonic solids
21:37:33 <alise> Vonlebio: Vulcans cleverly hide how stupidly irrational they are behind a monotone voice and an adamant insistence that they are unemotional.
21:38:00 <Vonlebio> alise, indeed; I have come to this conclusion myself
21:38:06 <wareya> Otherwise, false assumptions would be made and people would constantly fall into deep depressions.
21:38:16 <alise> Vonlebio: So has everyone :P
21:38:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, true. Not sure that is a bad thing. I never liked comedy based on people acting stupidly. There are other forms of comedy after all, which are better IMO
21:38:38 <oklofok> "<alise> Vonlebio: So has everyone :P" <<< i haven't, i haven't watched star trek!
21:38:41 <alise> i think Vorpal may be a contender for "most boring person in the universe"
21:38:49 <alise> oklofok: then you don't count as a person!
21:39:14 <oklofok> NOT HAVING WATCHED RETARDED SHIT IS NOT A BAD THING
21:39:22 <oklofok> NOT HAVING READ RETARDED SHIT IS NOT A BAD THING
21:39:29 <wareya> Why is it bad that fiction has emotions in it?
21:39:46 <alise> Star Trek is fun, despite being rather rubbish
21:39:53 <cpressey> wareya: takes time away from blowing things up
21:39:55 <oerjan> Vorpal: hm actually i agree on that comedy part, i myself have to leave the room when such shows are on.
21:39:57 <oklofok> wareya: it's annoying to watch people being stupid.
21:40:02 <Vorpal> alise, agreed. Very varying quality though
21:40:09 <Vorpal> some are so bad it's bad
21:40:11 <oklofok> it's more fun to watch them being really smart and unemotional
21:40:34 <alise> I love Voyager because I'm perfectly tuned to laugh at every second of it.
21:40:41 <wareya> Part of the art of authorship is balancing the emotion between being stale and perfect versus being so horribly irrational and pointless that it's stupid.
21:40:46 <oklofok> it's fun to watch people be *insane*, but that's different
21:40:55 <alise> oklofok: err, you do realise that half of Hamlet is people being insane?
21:41:03 <oerjan> Vorpal: there was a mezzacotta blog post about this, i recall
21:41:11 <alise> Hamlet behaves insanely for... the entire play (despite being the only sane one...)
21:41:23 <oklofok> i'm not sure it's the kind of insane i'm looking for.
21:41:27 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. And that is what annoys me.
21:41:38 <alise> you're really stupid :)
21:41:38 <cpressey> On an unrelated note, I did like MacBeth better.
21:42:15 <Vorpal> alise, Romeo & Juliet also have the stupidity bit. Possibly even more so than Hamlet. Though it's a close thing which is worst.
21:42:28 <alise> Romeo and Juliet is /about/ how stupid they are.
21:42:38 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, completely missing the point.
21:42:48 <alise> It's a tragedy where their flaw is /being fucking morons/.
21:43:19 <Vonlebio> I stopped watching it after Mercutio died.
21:43:47 <alise> It's not his best play. By far. But he definitely doesn't like any of the characters.
21:43:59 <Vonlebio> Because he's about the only major character who isn't a raving idiot!
21:44:14 <alise> Which is the point!
21:44:40 <alise> Vonlebio: The Friar is pretty sane.
21:44:57 <alise> He's the one that tells Romeo "stop fucking whining, you just avoided the death penalty".
21:45:19 <Vonlebio> He spends most of the play thinking up wacky and implausible schemes to get Romeo and Juliet together!
21:45:20 <Vorpal> and as cpressey said. Macbeth is a bit better. Since there it is the bad guy who gets into problems really.
21:45:38 <alise> Oh yeah, because all plays must follow my rigidly desired Good Outcome.
21:45:40 <cpressey> I mainly liked the part about the forest
21:45:42 <alise> Vonlebio: He marries them because he thinks it will bring peace.
21:45:50 <Vorpal> alise, didn't say that.
21:45:56 <cpressey> I liked Romeo and Juliet, too, though.
21:46:02 <oerjan> Vorpal: http://www.mezzacotta.net/?p=211 although it actually was just a small part of it
21:46:03 <Vonlebio> alise, indeed, but then he starts acting like me with the Pope's hat!
21:46:06 <cpressey> It's his comedies I can't really bear.
21:46:22 <Vorpal> not sure if I watched any of his comedies
21:46:49 <alise> "Romeo + Juliet", btw, is the most abhorrent thing ever committed to film.
21:47:12 <cpressey> alise: The modernised version?
21:47:24 * Vonlebio wanted to see the Zefirelli version but his effing English teacher insisted on showing Luhrmann's one.
21:47:33 <alise> The stupid "it's about TRUE LOVE" misunderstanding of the plot + LET'S BE MODERN, LET'S HAVE GUNS AND CARS DESPITE USING THE ORIGINAL DIALOGUE + just... terribleness + Leonardo DiCaprio, WHY?
21:47:36 <oklofok> (there are films based on shakespeare's work?)
21:47:46 <alise> Yeah, "Romeo + Juliet" is Luhrmann's.
21:47:50 <oerjan> Vorpal: second paragraph, last sentence
21:48:05 <alise> oklofok: fifty bajillion :P
21:48:36 <oerjan> well and a bit further
21:48:37 <alise> I wonder if the BBC-aired production of RSC/Tennant/Stewart's Hamlet counts as a film.
21:48:55 <alise> It's three and a half fucking hours long.
21:48:59 <alise> (No intermission!)
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21:49:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, newly produced TV today is mostly shit :/
21:49:08 <alise> Vonlebio: It also has sets.
21:49:12 <alise> (It's not just a recording of a performance.)
21:49:30 <alise> And, uh, one gun. But just one!
21:49:42 <alise> (And the play makes no reference to a gun in dialogue there, so it isn't horribly awkward.)
21:50:00 <Vorpal> alise, 3.5 hours? That's nothing. *looks for imdb entry*
21:50:13 <Vorpal> hm imdb doesn't have length?
21:50:17 <cpressey> yes once Vorpal sat through the entire Ring cycle with no interrupts
21:50:28 <alise> Cleopatra is like 45739545 hours in the uncut version
21:50:36 <Vorpal> alise, can't find it for the one I'm looking for
21:51:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, who did? You claim me did?
21:51:11 <alise> ONCE I WATCHED ALL THE STAR TREK PRODUCTIONS EVER IN A ROW
21:51:24 <Vorpal> alise, that would be quite... impressive
21:51:40 <oklofok> "<Vorpal> oerjan, newly produced TV today is mostly shit :/" <<< newly produced fiction is good usually, that i watch regularly
21:51:41 <alise> ONCE I READ THE ENTIRE "LORD OF THE RINGS" TRILOGY BACK-TO-BACK
21:52:05 <Vonlebio> ONCE I READ THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND THE SILMARILLION BACK TO BACK
21:52:21 <alise> ONCE I READ THE ENTIRE "WHEEL OF TIME" N-OGY
21:52:27 <Vorpal> wait, it is only 3.4 hours?
21:53:52 <wareya> ONCE I READ THE ENTIRE THE CHRONICLES OF AMBER BACK TO BACK
21:54:07 <alise> ONCE I LISTENED TO "DISCREET MUSIC" FIVE BILLION TIMES
21:54:09 <oklofok> one season of a tv series is usually at least 15 hours, that's not exactly hard to do in one go
21:54:22 <Vorpal> wareya, not as in the material I presume?
21:54:29 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Amber
21:54:32 <alise> Gee, I can Google.
21:54:34 <alise> I must be amazing.
21:55:04 <Vorpal> alise, impressive. I'll hire you to do it for me. The pay is 1£ / 1000000 years. Paid at end of period.
21:55:09 <oklofok> but i guess it's just because american tv series are a fuckload better than hamlet movies
21:55:18 <wareya> It's funny because it's true
21:55:24 <alise> Vorpal: That was so witty I can barely contain myself.
21:55:29 <ais523> Vorpal: that's less than the minimum wage in the UK
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21:56:15 <oerjan> ais523: especially if you consider inflation
21:56:19 <alise> Vorpal: I'm taking you to court.
21:56:23 <Vorpal> wareya, "The main series consists of two story arcs, each five novels in length. Additionally, there are a number of Amber short stories and other works." <-- doesn't seem too bad. Unless those novels are excessively thick?
21:56:28 <alise> I believe I will get a raise.
21:56:34 <Vorpal> like, Tolkin thickness
21:56:37 <wareya> They aren't particularly short.
21:56:47 <wareya> They're longer than the hobbit
21:57:00 <Vonlebio> I ONCE READ THE WHOLE DISCWORLD SERIES
21:57:01 <cpressey> ONCE I READ THE ENCYCLOPEDIA ARTICLE ON THE MATERIAL AMBER ONCE
21:57:06 <alise> ten novels in one go is impressive...
21:57:14 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, I done that several times.
21:57:18 <alise> I ONCE READ EVERYTHING
21:57:26 <Vorpal> I mean, 30 books or such
21:57:49 <alise> ONCE I READ A POEM
21:57:57 <wareya> Speculative fiction is pretty great, too bad the label got misused and changed
21:58:01 <Vorpal> I one read Crime and Punishment with a 1-page interleaving of War & Peace.
21:59:32 <alise> once i read an anus
22:01:00 <oklofok> anyone here ever read a book in a language they didn't know
22:01:13 <wareya> Do language books count??
22:01:15 <alise> yes, I once read a book written in oklofok
22:01:24 <Vonlebio> I looked at a French dictionary once.
22:02:19 <oklofok> Vonlebio was just as smart, just slower :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
22:02:24 <oklofok> that's not funny in any way
22:02:33 <oklofok> <- what a fuckface this guy
22:02:46 <cpressey> I once read fizzie's beard -- it was a laser beard
22:03:03 <alise> what a fuckface that guy ->
22:03:49 <wareya> Too bad I don't have a userlist
22:04:59 <Sgeo> Time to do homework, I guess
22:05:04 <Sgeo> 3-5 minute presentation
22:05:10 <Sgeo> That I didn't even touch yet
22:05:13 <Sgeo> And a dash of Perl
22:06:29 <oklofok> haha everyone fuckface :DDD
22:07:03 <oklofok> Sgeo: you mean you have to do a 3-5 minute presentation?
22:07:14 <Sgeo> oklofok, no, write one.
22:07:25 <Sgeo> I'm not actually going to be presenting
22:07:28 <Sgeo> It's an online course
22:07:44 <oklofok> well okay then it's some work
22:07:46 <oerjan> so you're not even going to be present
22:07:46 <wareya> I have to do a supposed 18 hours of chemistry work by tomorrow morning
22:08:06 <wareya> Or, I can switch out to another class.
22:08:23 <oklofok> i have to do a negative amount of work on every course if i wanna catch up with everyone else :(
22:08:42 * Sgeo jealousies of oklofok
22:08:57 <Sgeo> The Perl stuff should be easy
22:09:26 <Vonlebio> Regarding Shakespeare, this nick is an anagram of Benvolio!
22:09:33 <oerjan> Sgeo: well, there's more than one way to do it
22:09:55 <oklofok> tbh i've mostly just read japanese
22:12:37 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:13:54 <pikhq> oklofok: Even in the Japanese class?
22:14:40 <pikhq> And no, never read a book in a language I don't know. Language I'm not fluent in, sure, but not a language I don't know.
22:15:56 <cpressey> I read Dante's Inferno. I don't know Italian.
22:16:02 -!- relet has joined.
22:16:05 <cpressey> I didn't read it *in* Italian...
22:17:14 <Vorpal> <cpressey> I once read fizzie's beard -- it was a laser beard <-- wasn't it nooga's beard?
22:17:59 <cpressey> all beards look the same to me
22:18:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, So does that mean all beards look like RMS? And does that mean RMS's beard looks well kept, or all other beards look like a mess?
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22:19:28 <oklofok> "<pikhq> oklofok: Even in the Japanese class?" <<< you mean if i have a negative amount to do in jap?
22:19:50 <Vorpal> oklofok, either that or if you read Japanese in that class
22:19:59 <Vorpal> those are the two plausible interpretations I think
22:20:24 <oklofok> well let's see, we've learned 30 hiragana and some greetings, i know all hiragana, all katakana, some 20 kanji, about 150 words, numbers, months, days of month
22:20:48 <oklofok> 150 was a completely random guess, but from word lists, i think i've learned about that many
22:22:17 <oklofok> (mostly i've been reading grammar, that's why the numbers are ridiculously small)
22:23:08 <madbrain> how messed up is japanese grammar?
22:23:10 * oerjan points at today's http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/
22:24:00 <oklofok> (disclaimer: i know a bit more than that :P)
22:24:24 <oerjan> (for you japanese fans)
22:26:05 <oklofok> i guess the small i signifies the h is an f
22:26:34 <pikhq> oklofok: What? What? No.
22:27:10 <pikhq> madbrain: Japanese grammar is actually really simple.
22:27:19 <oklofok> the cliff thingie is "fu" in romaji, is it used for f?
22:27:24 <oerjan> h and f are allophones in japanese, or something like that?
22:27:33 <oklofok> i know next to nothing about pronunciation
22:27:37 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:27:50 <pikhq> oerjan: The mora "hu" is pronounced with an "f".
22:28:11 <pikhq> oerjan: A small vowel following a "hu" denotes that that vowel should be used instead.
22:28:13 <oerjan> so you can only have f in front of u in japanese?
22:28:27 <pikhq> oerjan: In native words, yes.
22:28:50 <oklofok> according to our teacher, "hu" is only "fu" because it sounds that way to americans
22:29:22 <pikhq> oklofok: It's a distinct phoneme from both.
22:29:42 <pikhq> It's a bit more of an "f" than an "h", though.
22:30:08 <oklofok> are they different before different vowels?
22:30:21 <pikhq> Except for ぢ and づ, no.
22:30:23 <oklofok> they seem to be "th", but some closer to "d" than others
22:30:57 <pikhq> (ぢ and づ are more commonly pronounced as "ji" and "zu")
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22:31:17 <oklofok> yeah i'm talking about da de do
22:32:24 <oklofok> in particular, i thought maybe do was a bit closer to "th" than de (on the d to th scale)
22:33:45 <pikhq> Sorry. Japanese lacks dental fricatives.
22:34:05 <oklofok> not the fricative, the sound in "the"
22:34:25 <oklofok> i don't know these terms, let me look them up.
22:35:02 <pikhq> Those are both dental fricatives.
22:35:21 <pikhq> Japanese lacks them.
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22:35:26 <oklofok> in do and de, the consonant is definitely closer to "the" than it is to "do"
22:35:39 <pikhq> Where did you hear this?
22:35:52 <oklofok> maybe our teacher has a speech impediment
22:36:07 <pikhq> It's certainly not actual Japanese pronounciation.
22:36:31 <oklofok> wanna link the really boring video again?
22:36:45 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTRLVB8UHt4&feature=fvw Here, just have what I was just looking at instead.
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22:37:44 <pikhq> (1000 and 0, by Sakanaction)（セントレイ、サカナクション）
22:37:49 <oerjan> pikhq: maybe it's a dental/alveolar thing rather than plosive/fricative?
22:38:53 <oklofok> the d's i heard in that are definitely at least in the middle of english th and d, if not closer to th.
22:39:02 <oklofok> maybe i have a hearing impediment
22:39:18 <cpressey> alise: So what would be more acceptable terminology than "re-entrant parser" for what I mean?
22:39:24 <pikhq> oklofok: Maybe I've just stopped registering the phonemes as odd. :P
22:39:28 <alise> cpressey: Umm... resumable parser?
22:39:30 <alise> Continuable parser?
22:39:41 <alise> You don't interrupt it; it just isn't given enough.
22:39:53 <cpressey> Anyone know if there's a "standard" terminology for this?
22:40:04 <oklofok> pikhq: or what oerjan said
22:40:55 <oklofok> could be the tongue is in the "d" spot (alveolar?), and you just jap it up (fricative instead of plosive? meh i'm just saying random things because i don't know how they sound)
22:41:38 <oerjan> cpressey: i think i've seen incremental
22:42:04 <oklofok> well anyway, have to go, keep the fun going! ->
22:42:30 <fizzie> The "resumable parser" is also rather understandable one, even if it happens to be non-standardish.
22:42:49 <cpressey> "incremental parser" has about 4000 google hits; "resumable" has about 100
22:43:12 <alise> WHY DOES NOBODY SELL 16:10 MONITORS ANY MORE
22:43:16 <alise> cpressey: Incremental parser sounds good.
22:43:33 <alise> cpressey: Is this for Pixley?
22:44:00 <cpressey> incremental it is. thanks oerjan!
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22:44:24 <cpressey> alise: Not per se. S-expressions just seemed like a simple thing to parse in this fashion.
22:44:33 <cpressey> but in practice, could be, could be.
22:44:40 <oerjan> cpressey: it _may_ indicate something stronger though, where you don't just add more text but can even reparse after internal edits (more effeciently than reparsing _everything_)
22:44:43 <fizzie> I do see some 1920x1200 monitors still available, but they're being CONSUMED by the 16:9 ones.
22:44:57 <cpressey> oerjan: like incremental compilation, hm.
22:46:32 <oerjan> cpressey: also i think the newfangled iteratee/enumerator concept for haskell (by oleg) is intended to support this
22:47:03 -!- Jonty has joined.
22:47:05 <oerjan> mind you i only mention that, my understanding is most haskellers still don't really understand that :D
22:47:34 <cpressey> incremental does seem to more have that meaning of "only reparse what has changed" -- i'm going back to "resumable"
22:48:06 <olsner> what is it your parser does? you can run out of input, stop, and continue parsing after more input?
22:48:35 <cpressey> like if someone were sending you sexps on a socket, or something.
22:48:46 <cpressey> and you wanted to parse them as they came in
22:49:02 <cpressey> i know there are xml parsers that do this, so it's not really anything too special
22:49:39 <olsner> if you have continuations, you can just have the ask-for-input function suspend computation until there's more input :)
22:49:46 <olsner> and the parser would just be a plain parser
22:49:48 <oerjan> s/support this/support adding new input incrementally/, it doesn't have anything to do with the internal editing stuff afaik
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22:55:08 <oerjan> cpressey: in fact it seems that the iteratee people use "incremental" in the sense you want, while some other researchers use the stronger edit meaning
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22:58:24 <alise> it's so hard to get XChat to use the same font sizes as everyone else
22:58:49 <Vorpal> alise, oh? 9pt works just fine here
22:59:01 <oerjan> including oleg, http://okmij.org/ftp/Streams.html
22:59:18 <alise> Vorpal: no, it's more dpi fuckery
22:59:29 <alise> trying to match it up
22:59:34 <alise> hard since XChat seems to do its own text-rendering thing
22:59:46 <alise> that's ... almost it
22:59:50 <Vorpal> alise, it uses cairo afaik?
22:59:53 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm still talking about incremental parsing
22:59:58 <alise> Vorpal: clearly it doesn't use gtk
23:00:04 <alise> /something's/ different
23:00:09 <alise> letter spacing and stuff
23:00:12 <Vorpal> alise, cairo or pango or whatever
23:00:13 <alise> Vorpal: er, cairo and pango are usually used together
23:00:20 <Vorpal> alise, okay. I'm no expert
23:00:58 <Vorpal> alise, but yeah I don't think it uses some gtk widget for the channel display
23:01:06 <alise> well, it does its own selection stuff too
23:01:11 <alise> ...the channel display is pretty shit, really
23:01:17 <Vorpal> alise, rather it creates an empty box and then uses cairo or whatever to draw in it
23:01:26 <alise> wish it just used WebKit or something
23:01:42 <Vorpal> alise, not sure I agree.. Also why mix in HTML where it isn't needed...
23:01:49 <Vorpal> if that is what you mean
23:01:58 <alise> it's just a syntax for rendering shit like that
23:02:04 <alise> also, it allows easy customisation of the display
23:02:16 <fizzie> Cairo's text-rendering is pretty low-level, but I wouldn't put it past XChat to use it directly instead of Pango, which is what GTK's own widgets presumably use.
23:02:17 <Vorpal> alise, what about the separator thingy, that would require javascript then
23:02:36 <alise> you could probably do it with floats; or even just a table
23:02:42 <Vorpal> alise, it jumps out on long nicks and you can drag it
23:02:42 <alise> a table would definitely work
23:02:47 <alise> jumping out is easy
23:02:50 <Vorpal> also you can set a max width for it
23:02:52 <alise> if you just specify min-width and max-width
23:02:56 -!- alise has left (?).
23:02:57 <Vorpal> so it can't jump out past a certain column
23:02:58 -!- alise has joined.
23:03:01 <alise> then it will automatically resize
23:03:08 <alise> dragging it would require some js, yes.
23:03:10 <alise> but not much at all
23:03:30 <Vorpal> alise, it would be slower than the current approach. I notice a huge speedup with js turned off in konq on my desktop
23:03:45 <Vorpal> but not everyone can afford the newest everywhere
23:03:56 <alise> webkit has a much better js engine.
23:04:05 <Vorpal> oh yes compared to firefox, definitely
23:04:12 <alise> and compared to konqueror
23:04:23 <alise> remember, they took konqueror, threw out large parts of KHTML because they were shit, threw out KJS because it's shit
23:04:29 <alise> iterate over many years of refinement
23:04:29 <Vorpal> I thought new konq used webkit?
23:04:38 <alise> not in latest KDE 4 release at least
23:04:42 <alise> I think it /can/ if you set it up
23:05:16 <Vorpal> alise, besides the default text rendering in xchat looks nice IMO.
23:05:39 <Vorpal> alise, also what do you mean own highlighting?
23:05:47 <Vorpal> I just fired up xchat, can't notice that
23:05:50 <alise> it's almost like the regular text rendering across the system, except the ways in which it does differ are all mistakes
23:05:54 <Vorpal> I selected text, behaves as normal
23:05:55 <alise> due to less polished code
23:05:59 <alise> Vorpal: no, it doesn't
23:06:01 <alise> it's not a gtk selection
23:06:04 <alise> it has its own colour
23:06:06 <alise> and try right clicking on it
23:06:16 <alise> they've coded their own selection logic
23:06:17 <Vorpal> alise, they are same colour here?
23:06:21 <alise> Vorpal: coincidence.
23:06:25 <alise> try changing gtk theme
23:06:38 <Vorpal> alise, and yes it uses a custom right click menu
23:06:38 <fizzie> XChat's text-selection color is configurable in the prefs.
23:06:40 <oerjan> cpressey: this stuff is important to haskell because haskell requires you to make parsing incremental if you want to have the parser be pure code but still allow interleaving impure actions with parsing
23:07:05 <cpressey> olsner: Yes. this is C. I don't have continuations. Implementing it looks an awful lot like implementing continuations.
23:07:39 <fizzie> There's that very old mostly-macro-driven "coroutines in C" thing.
23:07:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, setjmp/longjmp?
23:07:59 -!- afaulds has quit (Quit: http://ajf.me/stuff/beep.exe - World's most advance beep app).
23:08:24 <Vorpal> cpressey, if you don't have to deal with other IO than that for which you are waiting, it might be an option
23:08:27 <alise> cpressey: you could always just return a value saying "keep returning"
23:08:30 <Vorpal> to just call "get more data"
23:08:32 <alise> thus manually implementing setjmp/longjmp
23:08:42 <cpressey> oerjan: my head *cannot* handle oleg right now. i think i need to take a walk
23:08:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, what about co-routines
23:08:58 <fizzie> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutines.html if you've never seen it.
23:09:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, beat you to it :P
23:09:20 * Sgeo ponders the Paranoia idea that's been bubbling in my head since 2007 or so
23:09:23 <alise> fizzie: there are more proper coroutine implementations :P
23:09:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: How so? I said "coroutines in C" way up there.
23:09:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh? missed that
23:09:53 <Vorpal> <alise> fizzie: there are more proper coroutine implementations :P <-- in C?
23:10:28 <Vorpal> alise, got any example?
23:10:32 <alise> getcontext/setcontext type things
23:10:42 <alise> sec i'll dig one up
23:10:47 <Vorpal> alise, um, POSIX only, deprecated feature
23:10:50 <alise> http://dekorte.com/projects/opensource/libcoroutine/
23:10:55 <Vorpal> those two functions I mean
23:10:58 <alise> "A simple stackfull coroutine implementation, largely based on ucontext and fibers on platforms that support those APIs and with setjmp/longjmp implementations on several others."
23:11:14 <Vorpal> cpressey, it isn't. It is just macros!
23:13:04 <cpressey> i mean, nothing that ties this to C.
23:13:17 <fizzie> cpressey: It's also very tiny, and you can do the same thing sort-of manually if you don't want to call magical macros. Though the switch-casery is more than a bit ugly-looking.
23:13:17 <cpressey> Pascal doesn't have setjmp/longjmp, afaik.
23:13:22 <ais523> magic is when you run the code through the preprocessor, then run a textual replacement on the resulting output
23:13:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, are you going to port it to pascal?
23:13:31 <ais523> which is what C-INTERCAL does to input C files
23:13:35 <olsner> I really like how lazy evaluation makes the decompressor/parser example (from fizzie's link) something that you just write without needing to think about it
23:13:41 <cpressey> Vorpal: You totally do not get why I'm doing this.
23:13:41 <ais523> anyway, time to go home
23:13:47 <fizzie> cpressey: The "coroutines in C" does not involve any setjmp/longjmp or anything.
23:13:47 <Vorpal> cpressey, remember to only use stuff that works in brainfuck too then!
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23:14:16 <cpressey> fizzie: What alise quoted suggests that it does on some platforms.
23:14:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, that was a different implementation
23:14:38 <fizzie> cpressey: That was libcoroutine, the "more proper" one.
23:14:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, the one fizzie and I talked about just involves switch iirc
23:15:04 <Vorpal> masked with a few easy macros
23:15:22 <cpressey> it's probably 80% similar to what i'm already doing, minus the macros
23:15:53 <fizzie> It's basically a switch() around the whole code, case labels after each "return", and some static state to resume where it left off.
23:16:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, on the same basis that your is 80% similar without reading it. :P
23:16:06 <cpressey> i'm solving what is effectively the same problem
23:16:31 <cpressey> i have a big switch. i have some state that tracks how to resume.
23:17:00 <fizzie> It sounds like you no longer actually have a problem, either.
23:17:16 <Vorpal> cpressey, it uses macros that uses __LINE__ to automatically number the case statements iirc
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23:19:03 <fizzie> cpressey: Ah, I thought the "it" in your "Implementing it looks an awful lot like implementing continuations" referred to your parser itself, which sounded like something very overcomplicated.
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23:19:44 <cpressey> "it" does refer to that. I'm sorry if the rest of the statement looks like a complaint or something; it surely wasn't.
23:20:56 <alise> Why is it rendering differently...
23:21:15 <olsner> hmm, I now realized I've already made two different implementations of coroutines in C without even realizing it
23:22:16 <olsner> ... and one of them was a parser that occasionally needs to return control and wait for more data
23:22:31 <zzo38> In Enhanced CWEB you can use the @4 command to make a number that is automatically incremented in sequence each time that chunk is used
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00:02:46 <cpressey> olsner: see, i've never done that, so i decided it was time to play catch up :)
00:02:57 <cpressey> also, alise's sexp-in-awk-parser is similar
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00:45:20 <olsner> that's... almost good?
00:47:55 <alise> cpressey: how is it similar?
00:48:49 <cpressey> alise: you keep trampolining back the to //
01:05:34 <olsner> heh, battle programmer shirase doesn't accept money, but will work for vintage scsi cards
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01:23:24 <alise> i thought that rung a bell; iirc fizzie linked to this a while back: battle programmer shirase
01:23:27 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WxJECOFg8w
01:29:51 <alise> why is this rendering so messed up
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01:38:40 <cpressey> now you can criticize, mock, double compile, etc
01:39:48 <alise> wow it uses monaco
01:40:09 <alise> cpressey: it's the most boring, conservative implementation of lisp i have ever seen.
01:41:52 <alise> cpressey: Hmm, you have a state machine parser. Nice.
01:42:03 <alise> cpressey: It's like a recursive descent parser minus the recursion.
01:42:07 <cpressey> that was the objective of the exercise
01:42:27 <alise> if (*(state->ptr) == (char)0) {
01:42:31 <alise> if (!*(state->ptr))
01:43:18 <alise> my line is clearly superior
01:43:27 <alise> your is Javaesque in its senseless, readability-impairing verbosity
01:43:50 <alise> NUL is an implementation detail; you're really asking "is there no character?".
01:44:16 <cpressey> ... NUL is seriously exposed in C.
01:45:46 <alise> but your conditional does not express your intent as clearly as mine
01:45:54 <cpressey> i like to only use ! on things that are actually boolean.
01:46:09 <cpressey> i think mine expresses my intent painfully explicitly
01:49:34 <alise> of course, yours is correct in a very literal, assembly sense
01:49:39 <alise> but K&R would not approve.
01:51:48 <cpressey> anyway... i might write some kind of evaluator on this, now
01:52:06 <alise> i sort of wish C had classes now
01:52:09 <alise> because I'm writing a better parser
01:52:13 <alise> and I instinctively passed a parser argument, right
01:52:21 <alise> but then i realised that, with standard C,
01:52:29 <alise> I couldn't assign a meaningful function pointer there for e.g. an arbitrary string
01:52:32 <alise> because you can't do closures
01:52:38 <cpressey> i totally wished C had superstructures when I wrote this, because of all the casting
01:53:02 <alise> but i don't want to just use a string pointer
01:56:32 <pikhq> alise: God, if C just had closures.
01:58:50 <alise> cpressey: eh i'm too lazy to
01:58:58 <alise> why have you made it resumable, anyway?
01:59:14 <cpressey> alise: because i never did one like that before
01:59:16 <oerjan> so he can put it on his resume, silly
01:59:33 <cpressey> oh yes, that's the sort of thing prospective employers want to hear
01:59:43 <cpressey> "so, how many ways have you written parsers?"
02:00:17 <cpressey> quite frankly, i'm not sure why I do ANYTHING I do
02:01:41 <cpressey> and doing it in C is mainly because of my Amiga proclivities
02:02:06 <cpressey> and, i figure, if it can build there, it can build anywhere.
02:02:38 <cpressey> pikhq: first it's closures, next it's garbage collection, then the next thing you know, you aren't C anymore
02:03:20 <alise> pikhq: I humbly suggest we all just use OCaml.
02:03:28 <alise> Yes, it's shit, but are you really going to use that as an objection to a C replacement?
02:05:54 <cpressey> You know, 25-35 years ago, academia was devising new languages left and right, and so few of them have survived.
02:05:56 <pikhq> cpressey: libgc already.
02:06:40 <alise> cpressey: i imagine many gems have been lost.
02:07:07 <cpressey> pikhq: only to help find the leaks!
02:07:48 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, but it's a significant improvement over malloc in many use cases.
02:08:03 <pikhq> Of course, when you can *convince* people of that, you can probably convince them to just drop the C. :P
02:08:06 <alise> and [other language] is a significant improvement over C :)
02:08:25 <pikhq> "We use C because we need it to be FAAASST"
02:08:28 <alise> remember when Vorpal was rabidly arguing for memory memory management which is EASY to do properly, over SLOW SLOW gc?
02:08:39 <alise> (he's retarded in new, excitingly different ways now!)
02:08:42 <pikhq> "... But you spend more time writing it in C than you do using it"
02:08:58 <cpressey> alise: strangely, i don't. well, ... 1) units of measurement <-> type system. 2) automatic construction of GUIs from data types. 3) self-modifying grammars. I've seen old papers on all of these. And those languages were forgotten. but the ideas keep coming up
02:10:10 <cpressey> now we have 1) Frink (but it sucks) 2) ...? probably some jQuery plugin somewhere. 3) Zz, Plof, etc.
02:10:33 <alise> Frink does not suck :<
02:10:39 <alise> he's even making it more CASy
02:10:46 <cpressey> Not compared to Wolfram Alpha, I suppose
02:11:01 <alise> 2) is... what was it called
02:11:05 <cpressey> Haven't played with it in a while
02:11:30 <alise> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/TV
02:11:47 <alise> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Tangible_Value ;; more permalinky
02:11:49 <zzo38> How can I, in TeX, like \ignorespaces but instead keep track of if there is a space there or not?
02:12:49 <cpressey> alise: That's certainly interesting... I wonder how much it can/must infer
02:13:31 <alise> cpressey: then there's the ultra-fun, way-out-there http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Eros
02:13:49 <zzo38> For other variants of C includes C++ and Objective-C and D, because of the different opinion of different people.
02:13:57 <alise> cpressey: this is Conal Elliott's stuff
02:14:01 <alise> (couldn't you guess? :))
02:14:10 <alise> totally a hero of mine
02:14:12 <zzo38> Unfortunately C++ is not completely compatible with C (for many reasons), even though it might seem at first.
02:14:27 <cpressey> No, couldn't guess. [I refer you to the rock.]
02:14:38 <alise> yeah haskellers are totally famous
02:14:52 <alise> his blog is fun http://conal.net/blog/
02:14:55 <cpressey> But it proves I'm not jaundiced on everything, because I'm actually quite interested in this
02:15:02 <Sgeo> My English homework's easier than my comp. homework
02:15:05 <Sgeo> This is alarming
02:15:05 <alise> i like http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/ as my language-blog
02:15:10 <alise> it's like lambda the ultimate but more interesting
02:16:07 <cpressey> what disturbs me is that I can't *tell* what I'll find actually-interesting and what will bore me. there is a pattern but I can't expres or predict it
02:16:09 <alise> "Topless data" ;; totally didn't need that mental image
02:16:13 <alise> Clothes are illogical!
02:16:30 <alise> cpressey: perhaps typo corrections interest you
02:16:53 <alise> Slereah: "I am an android; as such, I do not require fibrous garments to keep my internal systems at their optimum temperature."
02:17:50 <Sgeo> Maybe I should switch my loyalty to Icon
02:18:05 <cpressey> Sgeo: What. Are. You. Talking. About. Questionmark.
02:18:17 <Sgeo> I'm reading the thing alise linked
02:18:25 <cpressey> Icon is an... interesting one.
02:18:33 <cpressey> But I think Griswold realized it doesn't scale.
02:18:43 <cpressey> (scale in some... conceptual sense)
02:19:20 <alise> icon's model is fun
02:19:28 * oerjan read that as (scala in some... conceptual sense)
02:19:39 <alise> y < (x | 5) is cool too
02:19:57 <alise> i forget what they're calling them; the perl 5 implementation is Quantum::Superpositions
02:20:06 <cpressey> Icon is like a non-gross Perl in a lot of ways
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02:20:55 <cpressey> I can imagine doing that in Haskell and it being this clunky monster but you could do it right and look I have this nifty type for it!
02:21:23 <oerjan> nifty 150 character type
02:21:52 <alise> you couldn't really do that in haksell
02:22:25 <Sgeo> http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2010/08/from-python-to-c.html
02:22:43 <cpressey> alise: not with a syntax anything like that, no
02:22:57 <cpressey> you're basically writing an interpreter for your miniiconexplang
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02:25:13 <cpressey> "Manual memory management is hard. If it accounts for half of your bugs, that's normal."
02:25:30 <alise> I'd say that's an underestimate for C.
02:25:39 <alise> Probably about right for C++.
02:25:44 <alise> (There you have new/delete.)
02:26:49 <alise> pointers with Ph.D.s
02:26:54 <cpressey> C++ "in the large" is particularly fun because everyone uses a different kind of smart pointer.
02:27:16 <cpressey> Obnoxious pretentious pointers?
02:27:29 <cpressey> "No, this is NOT your data. Pfft."
02:29:20 <Sgeo> Is Delphi a good language?
02:30:07 <cpressey> Sgeo: Delphi is basically Pascal with goodies.
02:30:08 <alise> Pascal is nice in its insane "purity"
02:30:24 <alise> the Delphi developers thought "oh, that sounds like a nice thing to give OOP"
02:30:31 <cpressey> I like Pascal as a pedogogical language.
02:30:33 <alise> and then went totally insane, turning it into C++ without braces
02:30:42 <alise> cpressey: I bet the original Macintosh's Pascal code was nice.
02:30:53 <cpressey> alise: I get the impression it was, yes.
02:30:53 <Sgeo> C++:C::Delphi:Pascal?
02:31:11 <alise> Sgeo: C++:SomethingEvenSimplerThanC::Delphi::Pascal
02:31:16 <alise> They literally turned Pascal into C++.
02:32:07 <alise> cpressey: What editor do you use?
02:32:20 * Sgeo wonders if Clojure might be a Lisp with (almost) everything he sees in Pascal
02:32:26 <Sgeo> erm, in Factor
02:33:37 <cpressey> alise: You will mock me if I tell you.
02:33:46 <alise> cpressey: I really won't.
02:33:56 <Sgeo> Is there anyone here who hasn't been mocked by alise?
02:33:56 <cpressey> because it's not emacs and it's not vim and it has an actual gui.
02:33:57 <alise> Just seven years ago I was bashing out PHP in Notepad.
02:34:07 <alise> Awful PHP at that.
02:34:11 <cpressey> well it's not notepad, thank the gods
02:34:20 <alise> cpressey: Hell, I don't even like Emacs or vim.
02:34:28 <cpressey> it's SciTE and the main reason I use it is consistency between *nix and Windows.
02:34:31 <alise> I use the former simply because I gave up.
02:35:04 <alise> I was going to write an editor using Scintilla at one point (same author as SciTE; the editing component backend).
02:35:15 <alise> It's a bit weird though, can't place my finger on it. Something odd about it.
02:35:27 <alise> cpressey: now amend, there's a good editor.
02:35:28 <cpressey> surprised. i guess i'm too used to getting the seeing the hidden disappointment when I tell people I don't use emacs
02:35:52 <alise> Emacs can get stuff done, but the UI is so terrible that I wouldn't blame anyone who didn't use it.
02:36:02 <alise> It's a big dog but it can do pretty much anything I want with a big gob of elisp, so.
02:36:09 <pikhq> Emacs does not know "user-friendly".
02:36:11 <alise> Editing Haskell in anything else is... painful.
02:36:33 <pikhq> User-antagonistic. Works just fine if you're willing to fight back.
02:36:36 <alise> yeah when I open Emacs I pretty much resign myself to leaving my platform behind and dabbling in its land
02:36:36 <cpressey> Emacs has TECO as an ancestor. I don't know if there's anything I can add to that.
02:36:41 <alise> cpressey: not really
02:36:45 <alise> Emacs was first implemented on top of TECO
02:36:48 <alise> but it was nothing like modern Emacs
02:36:52 <alise> and it's implemented-on, more than extension-of
02:37:00 <alise> then it was pretty much thrown out and replaced
02:37:12 <alise> cpressey: I've used TECO.
02:37:22 <pikhq> TECO lives on more in *ed* than in Emacs.
02:37:27 <alise> TECO's better than ed. IMO.
02:37:33 <alise> It's much more flexible :-)
02:37:48 <alise> pressing escape is inconvenient on most keyboards though
02:37:52 <alise> if you remapped capslock to it it'd be cool
02:38:14 <cpressey> I used to use nedit, which was actually alright, except for the *tif dependency.
02:38:26 <alise> teco is quite simple really
02:38:42 <alise> -5D <- delete 5 chars back, just like vi
02:38:48 <alise> I...$ <- insert this
02:38:58 <alise> 0TT <- "print line 0 lines away from this one"
02:39:06 <alise> $$ <- "do all this and print out the results"
02:39:23 <cpressey> I like TECO as a historical artifact. I've tried to get into Emacs several times, many many times, and never made it fully in.
02:39:40 <cpressey> If I were to use TECO at work...
02:39:42 <alise> besides, TECO has a short brainfuck interpreter
02:39:43 <alise> @^UB#@S/{^EQQ,/#@^UC#@S/,^EQQ}/@-1S/{/#@^UR#.U1ZJQZ\^SC.,.+-^SXQ-^SDQ1J#@^U9/[]-+<>.,/<@:-FD/^N^EG9/;>J30000<0@I/
02:39:43 <alise> />ZJZUL30000J0U10U20U30U60U7@^U4/[]/@^U5#<@:S/^EG4/U7Q7;-AU3(Q3-91)"=%1|Q1"=.U6ZJ@i/{/Q2\@i/,/Q6\@i/}/Q6J0;'-1%1'
02:39:43 <alise> >#<@:S/[/UT.U210^T13^TQT;QT"NM5Q2J'>0UP30000J.US.UI<(0A-43)"=QPJ0AUTDQT+1@I//QIJ@O/end/'(0A-45)"=QPJ0AUTDQT-1@I//
02:39:44 <alise> QIJ@O/end/'(0A-60)"=QP-1UP@O/end/'(0A-62)"=QP+1UP@O/end/'(0A-46)"=-.+QPA^T(-.+QPA-10)"=13^T'@O/end/'(0A-44)"=^TUT
02:39:47 <Sgeo> Any opinions on Notepad++?
02:39:47 <alise> 8^TQPJDQT@I//QIJ@O/end/'(0A-91)"=-.+QPA"=QI+1UZQLJMRMB\-1J.UI'@O/end/'(0A-93)"=-.+QPA"NQI+1UZQLJMRMC\-1J.UI'@O/en
02:39:50 <alise> d/'!end!QI+1UI(.-Z)"=.=@^a/END/^c^c'C>
02:39:56 <alise> Sgeo: it's very solidly meh
02:40:00 <alise> I was always a Notepad2 guy myself
02:40:06 <pikhq> cpressey: Emacs has a very, very steep curve from "know nothing" to "usable in spite of ignorance".
02:40:09 <cpressey> Sgeo: At a place I used to work everyone LOVED Notepad++. I guess it's OK.
02:40:10 <alise> but i was also an idiot, so there you go.
02:40:24 <alise> cpressey: Anyway, really we should all just use amend.
02:40:59 <alise> i'm not that hardcore :(
02:41:07 <alise> a lot of the plan 9 gang use sam
02:41:16 <alise> which is basically a graphical window
02:41:22 <alise> and a bunch of file windows below
02:41:42 <alise> you can select text and do basic insertions and scrolling with the bottom windows, but you mostly do everything inside the sam pane
02:41:57 <alise> so basically it's ed turned into a "graphical" editor
02:42:49 <alise> it's not bad if you know ed's command set really
02:42:52 <alise> but yeah, hardcore.
02:43:01 <alise> i'm talking about people like ken thompson here that use it
02:43:22 <pikhq> alise: Hmm. That seems not too bad after the learning curve.
02:43:28 <alise> Sam is the preferred text editor of many eminent computer scientists; it replaced ed as Ken Thompson's favorite text editor, and he still uses it to this day. Sam is the text editor used by Bjarne Stroustrup [1] and Brian Kernighan [2]. Others, like Dennis Ritchie, have moved on to use acme instead.
02:43:32 <alise> pikhq: sam or TECO?
02:43:39 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Sam_text_editor.png
02:43:59 <alise> cpressey: ASK WHAT AMEND IS DAMMIT
02:44:46 <Sgeo> alise, an editor you have planned?
02:45:09 <alise> I actually did some work on leaden (its predecessor) but that code is elsewhere or lost right now.
02:45:26 <alise> Possibly the least conventional editor around, though...
02:45:36 <alise> cpressey: How much would it irk you to use an editor where every single change to the file is saved automatically?
02:45:59 <cpressey> alise: I... it would take getting used to. Would it also save undo info in the file? I could live with that.
02:46:00 <Sgeo> Damnit, dammit
02:46:07 <alise> (Ctrl+S instead makes a version-control commit, after prompting for a one-line commit message. I call this feature "Overcome the Inertia Stopping Me Using Version Control".)
02:46:16 <alise> cpressey: It wouldn't; that's what Ctrl+S is for.
02:46:21 <alise> Or perhaps I will store undo information in ~/.amend/.
02:46:24 <alise> It's certainly a good idea.
02:46:42 <alise> cpressey: Anyway, the idea is that whenever you'd save, you'd instead make a commit.
02:47:00 <alise> Sgeo: the VCS thing or storing undo information to a file?
02:47:21 <Sgeo> Although what about quick one-second files?
02:47:29 <Sgeo> Is there a default VCS?
02:47:35 <alise> Sgeo: When there is no repository, it will prompt to either create one or go into Boring Mode.
02:47:53 <cpressey> My only worry is that I made a bunch of changes, I don't like them, then amend crashes. Urg, I'm stuck with them. Of course, if the file is in VCS I can just revert, so, yeah.
02:47:56 <alise> Boring Mode should also be used for configuration files, like in /etc (even if you keep them in a VCS, it's not a good idea to change them underneath programs).
02:48:09 <alise> cpressey: Yeah, that's the idea.
02:48:23 <alise> Boring Mode -- which won't actually be called that -- should be used whenever you're without a VCS.
02:48:30 * Sgeo hopes that append will be available for Windows
02:48:33 <alise> (In Boring Mode, Ctrl+S when there are no unsaved changes will commit. So you can still do that.)
02:48:37 <alise> Sgeo: *amend, and maybe.
02:49:07 <alise> I won't make any great effort to support Windows; I'll make small fixes if they make it work, though.
02:49:10 <Sgeo> I feel like my spelling of alise's editor has just been alise's editored
02:49:41 <alise> the other possible name was alter
02:49:43 <alise> but I liked amend more
02:50:19 <alise> it has more features
02:50:30 <alise> cpressey: other features: very little ui, but not ui obscured behind non-obvious keyboard commands
02:50:42 <alise> it's just that there's not much to it that isn't integrated into a normal editing flow
02:50:59 <zzo38> I managed to now make Enhanced CWEB to be able to use special symbols for some words. Such as: blackboard bold "Z" for int or for signed int, blackboard bold "N" for unsigned, and so on.
02:51:02 <alise> ...self-discoverable, i.e. all keyboard shortcuts are either standard, included in a VERY tiny initial reference, or shown in the interface
02:51:25 <alise> cpressey: a proper sidebar tree view of a directory for navigating a project...
02:51:43 <alise> probably a list of files on the side since I'm stuffing other stuff onto the sidebar anyway; it can hold more entries than horizontal tabs
02:52:05 <alise> cpressey: my inspiration for some of this is http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/yaedit
02:52:07 * Sgeo wants this to become a mainstream editor
02:52:12 <Sgeo> </yet-another-sgeo-meme>
02:52:25 <alise> which has the auto-save thing but no VCS support, a very obvious UI, and a sidebar as the only other UI
02:53:21 <alise> probably the first version of amend will be called "leaden" because i'm worried about giving anything rubbish the name amend, it's too good to tarnish :)
02:54:19 <cpressey> I like the idea of all shortcuts being visible. Or, ... well, a qualified version of that.
02:54:24 <Sgeo> "An option to set the bloody tab size and screw up your indenting. Tabs are 8 spaces, get over it.
02:54:34 <Sgeo> So much for editing Python code?
02:54:49 <alise> you can insert four spaces.
02:54:54 <alise> it's a very common opinion, anyway, that \t = 8 spaces
02:55:04 <alise> he means that \t shows as 8 spaces
02:55:12 <alise> although i think all indentation is by tabs, that's not what he's saying there
02:55:17 <alise> i don't agree with it but whatever
02:55:49 <cpressey> *my* editor would choke on tabs with the error message: "bad magic: plz man 1 expand"
02:56:13 <Sgeo> Some people may want to edit text, you know
02:56:25 <alise> cpressey: nothing wrong with tabs, they're just horribly misused
02:56:40 <alise> tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment, although limited in editor support, is beautiful, since it looks perfect no matter what tabstop you se
02:56:47 <alise> and retains the indentation information in a semantic form
02:56:56 <alise> even better are elastic tabstops, which don't even require a monospaced font for alignment :)
02:57:02 <alise> someone check out what the hell this is:
02:57:03 <alise> * afaulds has quit (Quit: http://ajf.me/stuff/beep.exe - World's most advance beep app)
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02:57:27 * Sgeo carefully downloads
02:59:00 * Sgeo asks for Symantec to scan
02:59:11 * Sgeo watches Symantec take an unholy eternity to load
03:00:49 <Sgeo> Waiting for Symantec to start scanning...
03:01:17 <Sgeo> VirusTotal, which includes Symantec, found nothing
03:01:34 <Sgeo> local Symantec is still being a bitch
03:01:56 <Sgeo> Oh look, it completed
03:03:39 <Sgeo> local found the same thing as VirusTotal: Nothing interesting. I should have said that after it completed
03:03:44 <Sgeo> Instead of leaving it implied.
03:04:34 <Sgeo> I didn't actually run the thing
03:06:58 <Sgeo> I should make a Chrome profile that has Chrome's noscript enabled
03:07:04 <Sgeo> And doesn't have Flash or other plugins
03:07:09 <cpressey> http://ajf.me/reactos/stuff/arwinss-logo.png <-- much more entertaining than beep.c
03:07:09 <Sgeo> And starts in Incognito
03:07:29 <Sgeo> Not as safe as a browser in a VM, but very close
03:09:54 <cpressey> Ah I forgot Gnome terminal can open multiple tabs!
03:10:28 <cpressey> Of course, I tend to like having multiple desktop "screens" and sliding between them with Ctrl+Alt+arrowkeys better
03:11:04 <cpressey> I prefer screen for talking with a remote system that's going to drop me.
03:14:21 <Sgeo> Someday, I will switch to ReactOS
03:16:24 <Gregor> Sgeo: Once it becomes borderline-usable?
03:16:41 <Sgeo> Or maybe when it becomes near-perfect
03:17:07 <Sgeo> (Although I'm scared that that might take decades)
03:17:42 <Sgeo> How long has WINE been around for?
03:18:43 <cpressey> Sgeo: Apparently it started in 1993.
03:19:46 * Sgeo does not feel like waiting 20 years for usable ReactoS
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03:29:52 <cpressey> Well, I added an evaluator to my parser. It knows 'car', 'cdr', and 'quote'. Exciting language!
03:30:19 <cpressey> It will probably become a C impl of Pixley. Eventually.
03:31:52 <cpressey> Oh, and I should probably make the *evaluator* non-recursive and resumable, too, just for consistency with the existing pointlessness.
03:35:02 <Sgeo> Pointfreeness?
03:49:33 <wareya> So, I took the concept of a language with expression nesting and 2d flow and made it less awful than what I wrote out Boat as.
03:49:36 <wareya> http://pastebin.com/YwLs2faU
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04:05:09 <zzo38> Are any other needed symbols for data types in Enhanced CWEB?
04:05:16 <zzo38> (Other than the ones I have already listed)
04:06:45 <zzo38> I probably need "float" "double" "long double" I can use blackboard bold R for those.
04:06:52 <zzo38> (With the superscript - and +)
04:11:28 <cpressey> zzo38: Where can I download Enhanced CWEB?
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04:18:04 <cpressey> wareya: It looks a lot like C put into a 2D grid. But I don't see any obvious way to do conditional control flow -- neither in it nor in Boat.
04:18:25 <wareya> I haven't written conditionals into that one
04:18:33 <cpressey> Oh, in Boat it looks like ?(e){c}
04:19:23 <cpressey> zzo38: I can't telnet into zzo38computer.cjb.net either, although I wasn't really expecting to be able to :)
04:26:18 <wareya> Variables of negative size...
04:28:41 <wareya> Moving XOR to : and ::
04:30:19 <wareya> Looks like I've used everything but , and .
04:30:24 <cpressey> variables of negative size could be stored backwards in memory
04:30:43 <zzo38> cpressey: Sorry. I do not currently have a telnet service running. (I used to, once. And I might possibly add others later)
04:31:01 <wareya> That would be pretty nice, but how would their arraying work?
04:31:21 <zzo38> cpressey: Download Enhanced CWEB from: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/
04:31:26 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/cweb.zip
04:31:42 <wareya> Since the array indices of a null variable would all point to the same place (though it would end up being illegal to use them) it would make sense fot the array to be backwards too.
04:31:49 <zzo38> (Currently I am working on version 0.3 but there is version 0.2 can be downloaded from that URL)
04:32:06 <wareya> But it could turn out more abusable if the array indices always went to a higher address.
04:32:22 <wareya> Even if the variable were of negative size.
04:41:55 <wareya> Alright: http://pastebin.com/4TYRsGeJ
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05:03:32 <wareya> I'm wondering about embedding conditions inside of expressions
05:03:36 <cpressey> wareya: I... didn't think you would take that seriously :)
05:03:50 <wareya> The negative variable thing?
05:03:55 <wareya> I actually had that in my mind for a while.
05:04:14 <wareya> 00:03 < wareya> I'm wondering about embedding conditions inside of expressions
05:05:15 <cpressey> wareya: i have no opinion on that except "why not, C does it."
05:05:31 <wareya> C lets you embed if statements inside of expressions?
05:06:14 <zzo38> C lets you have ? : operator inside of expressions
05:06:15 <cpressey> zzo38: thanks, I have downloaded it. you might have more users if you made it possible to find that page from zzo38computer's main page. (not that you necessarily want more users)
05:06:38 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes I can might add that to the main menu
05:07:12 <zzo38> I might also add it to the gopher menu. The gopher menu is more organized, although not as many things available. I should add it to both menus, hopefully.
05:07:37 <wareya> I'm thinking about entire conditionals, statements included
05:08:00 <wareya> That would be another layer of depth in the expression nesting.
05:08:07 <zzo38> In C you can have function calls inside of an expression, so the function call can cause anything
05:08:19 <zzo38> In GNU C, I think you can even write it directly inline inside the expression
05:08:53 <wareya> I have to wake up and go to, uh, school in six hours.
05:08:58 <wareya> I should stop drinking caffiene
05:09:18 <zzo38> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.5.0/gcc/Statement-Exprs.html#Statement-Exprs
05:10:24 <lament> haskell allows statements in expressions!
05:11:08 <zzo38> Are there any other non-standard character escapes in some C compilers, other than \e for escape in GNU C?
05:12:31 <wareya> I think that GNU C allows x?:y as a shortcut for x?x:y
05:12:52 <wareya> but that's not a character escape so
05:13:59 <pikhq> C does allow multiple chars in a ''.
05:14:08 <pikhq> (IIRC, up to system word size)
05:14:50 <zzo38> cpressey: Do you have any questions/suggestions about Enhanced CWEB?
05:15:59 <cpressey> zzo38: It will take a long time for me to formulate any suggestions, but I do have one question. I think you posted a really simple example of a C program written in CWEB, to a pastebin, in the last few days (or week), but I don't remember the URL. Do you still have that?
05:16:20 <cpressey> I wish I remembered what the program did. It was simple, that's all I remember.
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05:22:55 <zzo38> cpressey: No, I do not have the URL, sorry....
05:23:19 <zzo38> I also do not remember what program...
05:24:46 <cpressey> oh well. maybe i bookmarked it at work.
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05:34:03 <Fiber> Anyone here have any experience with enochian?
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06:02:36 <zzo38> GNU C allows nested functions, which can take values from the containing function, as well as being able to jump out to a label in its containing function.
06:04:16 <Gregor> And to get pointers to those nested functions, it creates trampolines at runtime ... on the stack!
06:12:51 <pikhq> Gregor: Only if the functions close.
06:13:05 <pikhq> If they don't close, then it's just sugar for a normal function.
06:13:20 <pikhq> I know this because I did nasty things.
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06:23:50 <zzo38> Close? What do you mean by the functions close
06:26:55 <Gregor> Close in the sense of ... err, a closure.
06:27:04 <Gregor> That is, if the nested function refers to variables in the outer function's scope.
06:28:02 <pikhq> zzo38: Or, "close over variables".
06:28:42 <zzo38> O, OK. Refering to variables in the outer function's scope is one of its uses, for using these kind of function. Another use is jumping out of the function, to labels in the outer function.
06:29:37 <pikhq> zzo38: This, incidentally, is undefined if the outer function has ceased to be off the stack.
06:30:12 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, but you would use it only before the outer function returns.
06:30:23 <pikhq> (technically, just *calling* the inner function if the outer function is off the stack is undefined, but GCC implements it in such a way that it has reasonable behavior if there's no closing)
06:30:36 <pikhq> zzo38: In which case you've just got something like a longjmp happening.
06:31:00 <zzo38> It might be called using a normal call, but it might also be used by a function pointer passed to another function
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09:36:32 <ais523> hmm, I independently invented arithmetic coding last night
09:37:00 <ais523> I wonder if that means that the patents on it should have been rejected for obviousness?
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09:56:09 <fizzie> "Is there any teaching in the prior art, as a whole, that would, not simply could, have prompted the skilled person, faced with the objective technical problem formulated when considering the technical features not disclosed by the closest prior art, to modify or adapt said closest prior art while taking account of that teaching, thereby arriving at something falling within the terms of the claims, and thus achieving what the invention achieves?"
09:56:17 <fizzie> If it's only "could", not "would", then it's not obvious.
09:57:06 <fizzie> I.e. just that you can independently invent it isn't enough; it also needs to be something you will necessarily "invent".
09:57:10 <fizzie> (I don't know how that works.)
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10:11:22 <ais523> well, it was the obvious solution, to me, of a problem I was having
10:13:23 <fizzie> For the obviousness, I guess it needs to be that for any "skilled person". I don't know how they measure that.
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14:24:38 <cpressey> "< Fiber> Anyone here have any experience with enochian?" Well, it's a *language* I guess, but still. BZZZT.
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15:39:49 <Sgeo> Thank you, Windows XP, for taking 10 minutes to boot up to a degree where XChat is usable
15:40:04 * Sgeo wonders if there's a bootchart for Windows
15:46:17 <cpressey_> i'm using irssi under cygwin! yay!
15:46:37 <cpressey_> i just need to set up that bitlbee thing so i can use this for jabber stuff
15:48:41 * Sgeo epiphanies about a Factor thing
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16:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me, or was today's xkcd actually mildly amusing?
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16:07:08 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Impossible
16:08:37 <Gregor> ... lawl, OK, the last two panels make it :P
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16:16:31 <Sgeo> Right now, we're looking at a slide on preincrement v postincrement
16:17:52 <Sgeo> Sgeo is BORED!
16:17:56 <Sgeo> Perl is a BORING thing!
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16:22:49 <Sgeo> I titled my classwork submission "Laziness is a virtue (Haskell is lazier than Perl =P)"
16:23:30 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the laziest possible evaluation strategy is.
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16:29:38 <Sgeo> Said submission titled was visible in front of everyone
16:29:41 <Sgeo> She asked who Haskell was
16:29:52 <Sgeo> It just occured to me that Haskell was, in fact, a person >.>
16:34:41 <Sgeo> Hey, Perl gets something right!
16:34:50 <Sgeo> (The mandatory braces for things like if)
16:35:15 <ais523> he didn't actually invent currying functions, but the process is named after him anyway
16:37:07 <Phantom_Hoover> He did invent the Y combinator, but you can't have the Y combinator in Haskell!
16:39:27 <fizzie> The braces aren't mandatory for postfix if, though. (Personally I dislike them.)
16:40:05 <ais523> for a simple if, you can do it like this: "if(a) {b;}" becomes "a and b;"
16:40:54 <fizzie> That's true, though I've really only gotten into that habit with the "or die" case.
16:45:14 <ais523> the program errors out if it can't print hello
16:45:24 <ais523> say, if stdout is connecte to a file that's read only
16:46:00 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'close STDOUT; print "hello" or die;'
16:46:32 <Sgeo> Hey, a Sgeo-meme is spreading!
16:47:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Although Perl was my favourite language when I discovered Perligata.
16:50:41 <ais523> fizzie: the close STDOUT from inside the program is sort-of cheating
16:50:53 <ais523> try $ perl -e 'print "hello" or die;' >&-
16:51:03 <ais523> that closes stdout from the shell
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16:51:22 <fizzie> ais523: It doesn't seem to print anything here, though.
16:51:50 <ais523> oh, what shell are you using? in csh, it probably closes stderr too
16:52:31 <fizzie> (In other news, the - for >&n was a new thing for me.)
16:52:57 <ais523> <&- is my favourite quick way to test error conditions on stdin
16:53:03 <ais523> it's sort-of hard to test otherwise, because it happens so rarely
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16:58:44 <zzo38> Any question(s), please?
16:59:09 <ais523> zzo38: did you know flogscript is now on anagolf?
17:00:41 <zzo38> I have even sent in some entries, in FlogScript.
17:00:53 <zzo38> (And also some in other programming languages, too.)
17:01:30 <cpressey_> ais523: yes, currying should really be called schoenfinkeling.
17:01:48 <ais523> nah, schönfinkeling with the umlaut
17:03:18 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Only if you do it too much.
17:06:06 <zzo38> Did you win a big spider yet?
17:08:12 <cpressey_> zzo38: Do you find that you code better when you are warm or when you are cold?
17:09:47 <zzo38> cpressey_: I don't know.
17:14:56 <cpressey_> i hadn't really thought about it until today
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17:18:16 <ais523> wow, I have over a million points on anagolf
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17:37:40 <ais523> new anagolf problem, everyone!
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17:54:47 <Vorpal> line 103:assert(strcmp(buf, "11111001") == 0);
17:54:49 <cpressey_> languages should be about abstractions, but the first ffi to come along just kills that idea.
17:54:55 <Vorpal> main.c:103:2: warning: string length ‘2219’ is greater than the length ‘509’ ISO C90 compilers are required to support
17:55:08 <Vorpal> anyone has a clue about what is going on?
17:55:27 <Vorpal> and buf it not some strange macro. It is just a char[9] or something about that size
17:56:12 <Vorpal> cpressey_, indeed. I get it for every assert(strcmp(buffer,"string-literal") == 0) in that file if compiling at more than -O0
17:56:20 <Vorpal> wait, assert is a macro
17:56:27 <Vorpal> doesn't it include the error message
17:56:28 <cpressey_> Vorpal: what if you move the strcmp expr out of the assert?
17:56:50 <cpressey_> It'll do that CPP paste thing to turn it into a string
17:56:58 <Vorpal> cpressey_, you know assert() prints out the failed assertion?
17:57:30 <Vorpal> cpressey_, http://sprunge.us/LEHG
17:57:53 <Vorpal> cpressey_, I think that strcmp might be macroified for constant strings glibc headers
17:58:14 <Vorpal> cpressey_, quite horrible yes
17:58:46 <cpressey_> recent gcc and its builtins stuff has not been happy-making
18:00:06 <Vorpal> cpressey_, I blame glibc headers here rather
18:01:07 <cpressey_> sure. i neither know nor can i make myself care
18:01:25 <cpressey_> all i know is i now see 'builtin' when gcc fails to do its job
18:01:41 <cpressey_> and this is yet another example :)
18:02:34 <Vorpal> cpressey_, nah it isn't really. It is actually glibc header magic...
18:02:57 <Vorpal> cpressey_, it wouldn't expand to that if done inside the compiler
18:06:31 <fizzie> It looks as if it comes from /usr/include/bits/string2.h.
18:07:42 <fizzie> Lots of pretty macros in that file.
18:08:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably with newlines and indention though
18:08:26 <Vorpal> which should make it less painful
18:08:40 <fizzie> Well, yes, but it's still not really pretty.
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18:55:54 <cpressey_> Vorpal: by 'gcc' i meant 'when i type gcc', not the compiler.
18:56:17 <cpressey_> i know you can use other c libraries than glibc with gcc -- that's not the point.
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19:37:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, there's $10,000 going for a disproof of the Time Cube.
19:50:21 <Slereah> Unfortunately, I'm not well versed in the crazy scientific method
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19:58:13 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: the problem is that the prize is authored by the guy who authored time cube
19:58:22 <coppro> so you have to actually convince him
20:00:00 <alise> cpressey: coppro: (Sgeo if he was here) I may be working on leaden today or in the next few days...
20:00:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: the predecessor to amend.
20:01:05 <alise> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.09.12
20:02:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: (grep "amend")
20:02:54 <alise> nothing to do with ed
20:04:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Search for "ASK WHAT AMEND IS DAMMIT".
20:04:05 <alise> That's the start of the conversation.
20:05:32 <Phantom_Hoover> And amend is presumably the editor you'd write for Lisp86 when it has such nice things as existence and an actual name.
20:05:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, if you grepped for "ASK WHAT AMEND IS DAMMIT", you'd find out exactly what it is.
20:06:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I read that, which is why I came to this conclusion.
20:06:34 <alise> No, it's what I'm writing round about now. :P
20:06:44 <alise> I already had a prototype version but I think it may have been deleted.
20:06:50 <alise> Or otherwise misplaced.
20:07:09 <Phantom_Hoover> L86's hypothetical one emulated with conventional filesystems.
20:07:21 <alise> pretty similar, yeah
20:07:27 <alise> Lisp86 is a decent enough name
20:07:35 <alise> although it's more Lisp64
20:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I stopped saying x64 when Gregor said I was a terrible person for it.
20:08:25 <alise> Unless you want to say Lisp86-64, which is ludicrous.
20:09:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Opal.
20:09:20 <alise> (When all else fails, list Greek scholars.)
20:09:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Lemma
20:10:05 <alise> !postmodern Operating system
20:10:10 <alise> !postmodern The operating system of the future
20:10:11 <EgoBot> Tted Kennedy operating system of tted Kennedy future
20:10:15 <alise> It's a rather crappy filter.
20:10:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, naw, that's what we'll call the proof assistant.
20:10:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do we have to have one of those?
20:10:45 <alise> I'm so bored of proof assistants.
20:13:27 <alise> 18:59:00 * Sgeo asks for Symantec to scan
20:13:35 <alise> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
20:13:39 <alise> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
20:13:43 <alise> AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
20:13:46 <alise> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhem.
20:13:54 <alise> [after long virus checking]
20:13:55 <alise> 19:04:34 <Sgeo> I didn't actually run the thing
20:13:57 <alise> Well that was pointless.
20:14:22 <alise> 19:11:04 <cpressey> I prefer screen for talking with a remote system that's going to drop me.
20:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> As far as I understand, all virus scanners suck in the non-alise sense.
20:14:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: NOD32 is pretty cool
20:14:38 <alise> Symantec though? Really?
20:14:50 <alise> ...of course, the whole idea of a virus scanner is pretty stupid, but ignoring that
20:15:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Symantec = Norton.
20:15:26 <alise> Norton is just their brand.
20:15:39 <alise> McAfee is impressively shitty.
20:16:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't Norton the one which sometimes gets confused and thinks itself a virus?
20:16:31 <Phantom_Hoover> And McAfee the one which vapourises system files on the off chance that they are malicious
20:16:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Can I have £171.71 to buy a keyboard with, please? Thanks.
20:17:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I, uh... that is to say, please?
20:17:33 <alise> Uhh, nothing is particularly wrong with it, other than it not being terribly good. It's not broken or anything.
20:18:20 * Gregor smashes alise's keyboard with a mallet.
20:18:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: See, now you have to.
20:18:31 <Gregor> There, solution problemed.
20:18:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Or I won't provide any more ridiculously pipe-dreamy ideas for Lisp86 any more.
20:19:12 <Phantom_Hoover> And anyway, how are you typing if Gregor smashed your keyboard in with a mallet?
20:19:15 <alise> AND THEN WHAT WILL YOU DO, BEING ABLE TO RELEASE THINGS THAT ARE EVEN VAGUELY RECOGNISABLE AS CONVENTIONAL OPERATING SYSTEMS IN A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME?!
20:19:21 <alise> I am using an on-screen keyboard. REALLY QUICKLY
20:19:31 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: He's on his iPaddlePodoTouchiePhone
20:19:40 <alise> "The bad man touched me in the phone."
20:19:54 <Gregor> No, that's the iPaddlePedoTouchiePhone
20:20:09 <Gregor> Or, for the brits, the iPaddlePaedoTouchiePhone
20:29:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: GIVE ME THE MONEY
20:29:08 <alise> It's only £171.71!
20:29:26 <alise> And that's a prefix of the repeating pattern 171717171...!
20:29:29 <Gregor> alise: If it was 171.70 he'd be all over it.
20:29:31 <alise> Which is an omen, so give me the money!
20:30:34 <Gregor> We're so scaaaaaa*gack*
20:31:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I think you will find that the Device ... is no longer there.
20:31:11 * alise holds up the Device
20:31:35 <alise> Security... override, power... maximum, target... Phantom_Hoover...
20:31:52 <alise> Kickassery... complete and utter.
20:31:54 <alise> Er, Phantom_Hoover.
20:31:58 <alise> That's the false deion laser I planted there.
20:32:01 <alise> *holds up deion laser*
20:32:11 <alise> It's actually just a whiteboard pointer.
20:32:21 * alise holds up the real real Device.
20:32:33 <alise> I have an infinite supply of these; you might as well just give up.
20:32:45 * alise holds up the real real real real real real real real real Device.
20:33:04 * alise kicks you before you have the chance to turn it on.
20:33:15 * alise bashes your head unconscious.
20:33:22 <alise> I already fired deion particles at myself.
20:33:32 <alise> I am, therefore, undefeatable.
20:35:16 <alise> 19:35:02 <Sgeo> Pointfreeness?
20:35:16 <alise> 19:42:18 <coppro> with no arguments
20:35:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It turns out that, like Zaphod Beeblebrox, I am already God.
20:35:55 <alise> Now... to the small matter of the money.
20:35:55 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:35:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, ZB was only God inside Zarniwoops reality simulator!
20:36:16 <alise> And you think this reality isn't simulated?
20:36:54 -!- wareya has joined.
20:37:11 * Phantom_Hoover rewrites it with a screwdriver and a Van de Graaf generator.
20:39:41 <alise> I did not give you a red pill.
20:39:50 <alise> Or a mirror to melt into.
20:41:23 <alise> I wrote the simulation, in part.
20:41:25 <alise> I am not that stupid.
20:42:06 <alise> (You can't see that, but I said "Computer, delete character Phantom_Hoo-- actually, never mind.")
20:42:26 <Phantom_Hoover> WELL I WROTE THE SIMULATION THE SIMULATION IS RUNNING IN
20:46:59 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later).
20:47:38 <Vorpal> <cpressey_> Vorpal: by 'gcc' i meant 'when i type gcc', not the compiler.
20:47:38 <Vorpal> <cpressey_> i know you can use other c libraries than glibc with gcc -- that's not the point.
20:47:42 <Vorpal> what then *is* the point*
20:48:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you have any clue what you are replying to?
20:48:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the person you think is my clone is actually me having time travelled.
20:48:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wrong. That's what your clone wanted you to think.
20:49:41 <alise> That's what your unborn sister would like your mother's child's brother's grandfather's friend's dog's fleas' son's descendent's lover's sons to think.
20:51:09 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's what they want Vorpal to want you to think.
20:51:35 <alise> Unfortunately for them, Vorpal has an impenetrable defence: he never thinks!
20:53:10 <Vorpal> alise, that is what you want your mother to think that you think.
20:53:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, do you actually plan to do anything majorly different to the Loper OS guy?
20:53:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Some stuff.
20:53:50 <alise> Vorpal: Case in point.
20:54:08 <Vorpal> alise, that is what you want yourself to think (aka, wishful thinking)
20:58:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: stuff
20:59:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: don't tell him
20:59:29 <alise> or we'll get Vorpal's Criticism of Loper OS, Message 1 of 734
21:00:01 <Vorpal> alise, http://www.loper-os.org/ ?
21:00:11 <alise> that's some random kid's blog
21:00:14 <alise> utterly uncommentable on
21:00:32 <Vorpal> alise, http://code.google.com/p/loper/ ?
21:00:48 <alise> Yeah dunno what that is
21:01:19 <Vorpal> http://code.google.com/p/loper/ seems rather interesting btw
21:01:28 <alise> Nope, it's so boring I can barely comprehend it. La la la la
21:01:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I disagree
21:01:47 <alise> Lisp on hardware? That's inefficient!
21:01:59 <alise> It needs backwards compatibility with POSIX/C.
21:02:01 <Vorpal> alise, now you are just silly
21:02:03 <alise> Otherwise it's doomed to failure.
21:02:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: See, it's obvious.
21:02:08 <Vorpal> alise, you know I love lisp machines
21:02:28 <Vorpal> besides. Writing a C compiler targeting lisp machines has been done before
21:02:40 <Vorpal> so it isn't exactly problematic to be able to port software over
21:02:46 <alise> That one doesn't appear to run arbitrary code.
21:03:00 <Vorpal> what the fuck are you on about
21:04:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I disagree though. It seems quite interesting. Of course I haven't looked into the details
21:04:35 <Vorpal> especially the bit about removing the disk/RAM dichotomy is interesting. And a lot more viable with modern fast flash based disks
21:04:39 <Vorpal> than with old harddrives
21:04:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is wrong with those?
21:04:53 <alise> Yeah, that's so stupid I can barely even think.
21:05:13 <Vorpal> alise, your acting skill is poor.
21:05:22 <Vorpal> alise, you would completely fail at poker you know
21:05:23 <alise> Wow, your paranoia is in top form today.
21:07:35 <Vorpal> in fact I would say that project seems thoroughly on the right path. At least from the limited info I have been able to find on it.,
21:08:37 -!- yiyus_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:08:40 <alise> Why are you trying to rebut someone you strongly believe to me just fucking with you?
21:09:39 <alise> <Vorpal> in fact I would say that project seems thoroughly on the right path. At least from the limited info I have been able to find on it.,
21:09:57 <Vorpal> alise, yes, as you can see I didn't direct it at any specific person in here
21:10:16 <fizzie> Completely irrelevant to your fascinating discussion, but dang, that's some quality bitterness in the SVN trunk's README of that code.google-link.
21:10:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh indeed, I noticed that too
21:10:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:10:56 -!- yiyus_ has joined.
21:11:24 <alise> Vorpal: We are, obviously, fucking with you, and that is the Loper we were talking about.
21:11:34 <alise> fizzie: He's a rather bitchy fellow.
21:13:06 <Vorpal> doesn't seem nearly as bad as the ion guy though. And much less insane.
21:13:27 <alise> The blog has a bit more wrongness, but yeah, he's not as bitchy as tuomov.
21:13:34 <alise> Tuomov actually has some quite similar ideas, though.
21:13:47 <alise> His packaging design was the best I've seen yet (based on cryptographically-signed API signatures).
21:14:38 <Vorpal> alise, anything like the versioned modules stuff of the linux kernel?
21:15:33 <alise> It was very good though, although of course surrounded by explanations of how everything else sucks, like everything tuomov writes.
21:15:44 <alise> Still, I put on my filtration goggles and after that his blog was an interesting read. It's gone now though.
21:16:24 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, hm you have similar ideas to these two. And you are bitchy too. 100% of the people preferring to replace concepts like file systems are bitchy? XD
21:17:05 <Vorpal> alise, his blog is gone?
21:17:06 <alise> I'm less bitchy than tuomov.
21:17:16 <alise> ...see, that's their orthographically-tuned web personas.
21:17:19 <Vorpal> alise, yes I didn't say you were as bad. Just more than average
21:17:21 <alise> Imagine what tuomov is like on IRC.
21:17:32 <alise> Vorpal: yeah his site is gone
21:17:35 <Vorpal> alise, a lot more nasty?
21:17:56 <alise> Vorpal: indeed, although there are mirrors
21:18:00 <alise> and there hadn't been a release in ages
21:19:05 <fizzie> Well, didn't he jump ship to Windows-land anyway?
21:19:24 <alise> Yes. But he was planning to develop ion anyway, using an X11 server.
21:19:31 <alise> But I think he got disillusioned with the idea. Not sure.
21:19:31 <Vorpal> alise, hm and while I would like to see file system replaced (though hierarchical organisation of data can still be useful for some tasks) I'm not enough annoyed by them to actually start replacing them myself. Besides I can't think of a good replacement that actually works...
21:19:51 <alise> "though hierarchical organisation of data can still be useful for some tasks" ;; nothing ever stopped you creating a HashTree object
21:20:14 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. Or a radix tree perhaps?
21:20:22 <Vorpal> I think a radix tree would be closer to a file system
21:20:23 <alise> you know what i mean
21:20:25 <alise> implementation is irrelevant :P
21:20:49 <Vorpal> alise, actually that sort of tree implements a flat namespace outwards
21:20:54 <Vorpal> while a radix tree would not
21:21:21 <alise> you'd hide it behind an api :P
21:21:23 <Vorpal> alise, but sets is another very useful data type
21:21:32 <alise> instantiate a Set object
21:21:37 <alise> -- these don't have to be OOP objects
21:21:43 <alise> "construct a set value", etc
21:21:51 <Vorpal> alise, where the set is inherently de-duplicative too
21:22:04 <alise> deduplicative storage should be a feature of all orthogonal persistence systems :)
21:22:23 <alise> anyway, there's no reason not to just use the same organisation methods on disk as we do in memory; orthogonal persistence is of course ideal for this
21:22:33 <Vorpal> alise, I do hope there is a way to GC data though. I mean, 300 GB in a laptop? Easy to run out of that
21:22:44 <Vorpal> I don't remember venti having any sort of GC
21:22:45 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.9/20100824153629]).
21:22:47 <alise> well you don't want to gc your personal files
21:22:56 <alise> venti is /not/ suitable for a laptop :P
21:23:05 <alise> Vorpal: deduplicative doesn't necessarily mean never-deleting
21:23:07 <Vorpal> alise, I might want to GC old versions of files and so
21:23:17 <Vorpal> alise, but venti does iirc
21:23:19 <alise> although in my ideal system it does mean automatically-versioning
21:23:31 <alise> (with some kind of GC; it's pipe-dream enough that I haven't thought about the implementation too much)
21:23:56 <Vorpal> alise, even with 1 TB of storage you could easily run out. I mean, downloading tv shows? Then you might want to delete those at some point
21:24:07 <alise> Vorpal: well, of course there will be a big delete button
21:24:21 <Vorpal> alise, while being able to just add in more TBs would be awesome, it is not realistic
21:24:23 <alise> pretty small actually
21:24:26 <alise> but you know what i mean
21:24:38 <cpressey_> this appears to be a fascinating conversation, i wish i wasn't busy
21:25:37 <Vorpal> alise, what about compression? For example, I had two large things on my laptop: icc and nwn. I compressed both to one squashfs each. Saved about 8 GB together.
21:25:43 <Vorpal> and fast enough from tests
21:26:11 <Vorpal> alise, for "mostly read only" data like such, some transparent compression might be nice
21:26:43 <alise> yeah there will probably be some sort of heuristic for that
21:26:52 <alise> heuristic upon heuristics
21:27:00 <alise> Vorpal: there will also probably be some sort of TransparentCompressionObject
21:27:14 <Vorpal> alise, well, might be a bit tricky, allowing manual marking as well might be useful. Because heuristics are by definition not exact
21:27:17 <alise> that compresses the object serialisation, or just some byte-array field of it, with some compression algorithm
21:27:21 <alise> and makes it behave just like the uncompressed object
21:27:26 <alise> caching the uncompressed version if it's not too big
21:27:30 <Phantom_Hoover> (The issue of fragmentation over time is still niggly, though)
21:27:33 <alise> yes everything will be manually settable too
21:27:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not if you use a Torsion-style system
21:27:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm? Fragmentation is not that much of an issue on SSD
21:27:51 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, neither of us understand Torsion-style systems.
21:28:02 <alise> It's just paging on a disk.
21:28:09 <Vorpal> alise, what is Torsion-style? I never heard of it before
21:28:09 <alise> Sort of like a fileystem does it, really.
21:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Then what the hell was I picking through the source for‽
21:28:21 <alise> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm? Fragmentation is not that much of an issue on SSD ;; it is when all your objects are N apart
21:28:26 <alise> and you want to allocate an N+1-sized object
21:28:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: to make sure! I had no idea before you told me.
21:28:42 <Vorpal> alise, you need to fragment the new object then yes
21:28:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I wouldn't trust me as far as I could throw me!
21:28:58 <alise> Vorpal: now name one language that fragments objects :P
21:28:58 <Vorpal> alise, which lead to some bookkeeping overhead indeed. And a tiny slowdown
21:29:07 <alise> so you want a third address space
21:29:11 <alise> that disk and ram both map to
21:29:15 <alise> rather than using disk as the address space directly
21:29:36 <alise> anyone here use Chrome?
21:29:42 <alise> wondering whether to use stable, beta or dev
21:30:01 <Vorpal> alise, this would probably require special hardware support to do it in a non-painful way. Both from "ease of use for programming against" and "speed"
21:30:12 <Vorpal> either that or disallow native code
21:30:12 <alise> the algorithms are simple enough
21:30:23 <alise> it's not like we have backwards compatibility of any sort in the first place
21:30:39 <alise> we're basically creating a radical lisp machine on top of a standard computer
21:30:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: he's right.
21:30:52 <Vorpal> alise, you have to agree there is something special about poking hardware registers directly though. A special feeling
21:30:55 <alise> and because it could basically bypass the system security
21:30:58 <alise> and also mess up more or less everything
21:31:12 <alise> sure, it's machine code and we don't use a traditional process style
21:31:16 <Vorpal> alise, so I'm a bit sad about seeing asm hacks going away
21:31:17 <alise> the processor won't help us much :P
21:31:32 <alise> Vorpal: well, you can peek and poke memory from the top privilege level (how do you think we interface with hardware?)
21:31:37 <alise> and i suppose jmp to it :P
21:31:49 <alise> but anyone but the OS or a really stupid user using that would be ... bad
21:31:54 <cpressey_> I have an easy solution. I'll design an OS that is the exact opposite of what alise and Phantom_Hoover's is
21:31:59 <Vorpal> alise, and yes I realise at some point you need to interface it
21:32:31 <cpressey_> of course i'll need to read this log later to find out what exactly that is
21:32:36 <alise> cpressey_: oh be nice, he's actually expressing reasonable opinions here
21:32:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it subverts the whole model, basically
21:33:01 <Vorpal> cpressey_, oh I love something lisp machine based. I'm just saying that if we are doing it on off-the-shelf hardware, then I find the occasional asm hackery quite nice.
21:33:03 <cpressey_> I would never be anything other than nice :)
21:33:07 -!- alise has left (?).
21:33:10 -!- alise has joined.
21:33:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, do you mean native code that hasn't been compiled by the Grand High Compiler?
21:33:36 <alise> -ChanServ- [#chromium-support] Welcome to #chromium-support, if you are using linux, please specify which distro. Remember that ArchLinux is not supported.
21:33:40 <alise> Arch: the new Gentoo
21:33:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed. I mean the occasional manual asm
21:33:55 <Vorpal> alise, why is arch not supported?
21:34:13 <Vorpal> alise, its a binary distro ffs
21:34:32 <Phantom_Hoover> We came to the conclusion that assembly would be allowed at a very high privilege level.
21:34:44 <alise> Vorpal: the chrome package isn't
21:34:47 <Vorpal> alise, from this I presume you run all in ring 1 with one large memory page?
21:34:52 <alise> anyway, presumably for the same reason as Gentoo
21:34:54 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, from this I presume you run all in ring 1 with one large memory page?
21:34:57 <Vorpal> alise, so they support gentoo?
21:35:02 <Vorpal> alise, since it is not listed there
21:35:02 <alise> we might be able to use paging for our own perverse advantage
21:35:05 <alise> Vorpal: nobody uses Gentoo :)
21:35:19 <alise> I'm just saying that people used to not support Gentoo because of the userbase and the devs doing silly things
21:35:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I thought we were using paging to implement the RAM-side abstract memory space/
21:35:36 <alise> Now people don't support Arch -- based on a sample size of one -- because of the userbase and AUR package writers doing silly things.
21:35:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, quite possibly.
21:35:51 <pikhq> The userbase has stopped expecting to be supported for doing silly things, and the devs have stopped doing silly things.
21:36:19 <Vorpal> alise, hm so not using one singe hugepage then?
21:36:26 <Vorpal> alise, no TLB misses = awesome
21:36:37 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I may be sounding terribly sane, but using anything other than paging for that is going to devastate performance.
21:36:39 <Vorpal> of course your idea is even more awesome
21:36:39 <alise> Vorpal: Well, we might use a big hugepage.
21:36:49 <alise> After all, the actual memory access is near-irrelevant.
21:36:55 <alise> As long as you can refer to an object in the Lisp and get the right thing back.
21:37:01 <alise> The choice is basically for performance and memory usage.
21:37:13 <Vorpal> alise, completely self-implemented?
21:37:22 <alise> (without multi-paging you could possibly use less memory space due to not having to map a page at a time)
21:37:32 <alise> But probably just asm.
21:37:42 <alise> I mean, we're going to be doing horrible, rapey things to the hardware to get it to do our evil bidding for us.
21:37:45 <alise> So might as well...
21:38:00 <alise> "You tried to install a file that does not (or no longer) exist." --GDebi
21:38:03 <Vorpal> if only we could get lisp *all* the way down
21:38:16 <alise> Vorpal: Lisp Machine. Gosh.
21:38:23 <alise> Or do you mean replace electricity with little (s and )s?
21:38:30 <Vorpal> alise, I meant on *stock hardware*
21:38:39 <alise> Writeable microcode!
21:38:52 <alise> "But alise, microcode isn't Lisp!"
21:38:57 <alise> Writeable nanocode!
21:39:05 <Vorpal> alise, I think the intel microcode is rather limited.
21:39:14 <Vorpal> as in, it couldn't be made to do that
21:39:25 <Vorpal> even if you reverse engineered it
21:39:40 <alise> Anyway, ideally I'd build the most beautiful Lisp computers ever and raise them up with kittens to be the most amazingly fluffy computing devices ever to exist.
21:39:49 <alise> But that would require moving from my current position, and as a rule, I don't do that!
21:39:54 <alise> So stock hardware it is.
21:40:05 <alise> (Also there is the money thing.)
21:41:50 <Vorpal> is that the awful pun I think it is?
21:42:02 * cpressey_ watches so-called "reality" start to bend in front of him
21:42:16 <alise> ALL THE WORLD IS A CAR
21:42:20 <alise> AND YOU ARE DRIVING ON THE ROAD TO THE END
21:42:30 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so wait, we have to write a nice compiler that can do everything *in x86 assembly*?
21:42:31 <cpressey_> that's not so much a pun as it is a forcemanteau
21:42:36 <Vorpal> alise, um if all the word is a car, so is the cdr :P
21:42:36 <alise> CONS CELL, in cinemas September.
21:42:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: x86-64!
21:42:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And, uh, well, not the entire compiler, I guess.
21:42:57 <alise> That can be bootstrapped from a more minimal thingy.
21:43:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why? Just write eval
21:43:01 <alise> But the runtime, yup.
21:43:13 <Vorpal> alise, couldn't parts of the runtime be implemented in lisp itself?
21:43:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, MenuetOS has a web browser and a DVD player and ... and it's written entirely in assembly.
21:43:22 <alise> I'm sure we can manage!
21:43:31 <alise> Vorpal: Well, that'd be the standard library. But sort of, yeah.
21:43:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: MAN UP AND STOP BITCHING.
21:43:54 <Gregor> alise: BITCH UP AND STOP MANNING
21:43:58 <Vorpal> alise, I mean... the GC and other memory management would probably need to be asm. And some hardware interfacing. But apart from that?
21:44:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: RESPECT YOUR ELDERS
21:44:07 <alise> Vorpal: Who knows!
21:44:25 <Vorpal> alise, okay add some interrupt handling and process scheduling to that
21:44:42 <Vorpal> but still, you can get away with the majority, including the compiler in lisp
21:44:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It would be nice if the compiler gave Magical Direct Memory Access at a high enough privilege level.
21:44:59 <alise> i dunno, i'd like to be able to bootstrap from a unix machine
21:45:00 <Vorpal> of course you still need to generate machine code from the compiler (and/or the JIT)
21:45:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i just said it would :P
21:45:16 <Phantom_Hoover> So we could write basically _everything_ other than the bootloader in Lisp.
21:45:17 <Vorpal> alise, so write a cross compiler in scheme or something
21:45:28 <alise> Vorpal: yeah, maintaining two compilers for the most wonderful dialect of Lisp ever invented
21:45:33 <alise> I'm trying to get away from Unix!
21:45:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the GC will be tricky in lisp too
21:45:56 <Vorpal> alise, only needed for initial bootstrap obviously
21:46:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, make a bootstrap, crappy compiler in x86-64 asm.
21:46:04 <Vorpal> alise, once it is self hosting: no longer needed
21:46:23 <alise> Vorpal: as i said, i'd like to maintain unix bootstrap as long as i can :P
21:46:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: then why write it in lisp? just keep it in asm
21:46:30 <Phantom_Hoover> This is sufficiently general that it can be compiled and linked to normal code on x86-64 unix.
21:46:52 <Phantom_Hoover> We then compile the good compiler, written in Lisp, with the crappy compiler.
21:47:20 <Vorpal> alise, I think writing a good compiler in pure asm will be highly painful
21:47:40 <Vorpal> alise, imagine trying to do transformations on the SSA form, in asm
21:48:49 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/.config$ rm -rf chromium/ google-chrome/
21:48:49 <alise> rm: cannot remove directory `google-chrome/Default/User StyleSheets': Directory not empty
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21:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OK, so where do we still have gapingly huge voids in the architecture?
21:54:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence "gapingly huge" i.e. we haven't even considered it.
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21:55:23 <alise> Um, the UI, to a large degree. But I'll handle that tyvm >_>
21:55:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm... Oh, how do we handle the whole persistent-vs.-nonpersistent thing?
21:56:13 <alise> My current take is: don't even bother. Persist everything. GC will handle the rest.
21:56:25 <alise> We can buffer writes or whatever to avoid thrashing the disk.
21:56:31 <alise> Or maybe only persist an object after it's existed for, oh, 100ms.
21:56:44 <alise> Resuming stuff without some objects it depends on would be strange, though. So maybe we should just persist everything.
21:58:12 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, I think modern GCs use magic to analyse objects being created for how long they'll probably last.
21:58:50 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Nope.
21:58:54 <alise> by modern GCs you mean state of the art :P
21:59:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: our GC job is super-fun
21:59:16 <alise> since it has to be both really good (FUCKING HUGE OBJECTSPACE)
21:59:22 <alise> and able to be run in a background thread
21:59:24 <alise> without much disturbance
21:59:36 <alise> i think we should only gc certain subsets of objectspace
21:59:37 <pikhq> Magic analysis is state-of-the-art, not merely "modern". Also, hard.
22:01:28 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes. It uses magic to analyse the magic, thereby flimming the flange, and thus it collects the garbage from the wimble heap.
22:02:01 <Gregor> HEY CPRESSEY: EIGHTEBED IS SOOOO UNDERWHELMING
22:02:05 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:02:39 <Gregor> http://codu.org/ccfc/ Look at how awesome I am at web design!
22:02:48 <alise> Ubuntu 10.04.1 review: yup, it still annoys you in a million different ways. Yup, it's still the only way you can use Linux on a regular desktop system and not get more than mildly ignored on a daily basis without constructing your whole environment from scratch.
22:03:07 <alise> Gregor: It's even a FREAKY! I mean WIKI!
22:03:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is spamuser about?
22:04:01 <alise> spamuser is where there is a bunch of people
22:04:01 <Gregor> Vorpal: They make "poorly-drawn comics" from spam subject lines.
22:04:07 <alise> Gregor: SHUT UP DO NOT TELL HIM
22:04:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: Spam spam spam user and spam.
22:04:31 <alise> Gregor: How can you like Spamusement!, it's drawn by a well-known Mac fan!
22:04:54 <Gregor> alise: I like Spamusers more than Spamusement, and Clueless more than StevenF :P
22:05:03 <alise> Gregor: That's what she said.
22:05:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Very, very cleverly.
22:06:03 <alise> Not even Hotspot's GC can do what we want.
22:06:14 <alise> Symbolics just used a stop-the-world mark-and-sweep, which was hilariously idiotic.
22:06:24 <alise> In that the machine would suddenly freeze up and blink a square for a few seconds when it felt like it.
22:06:41 <Gregor> Almost every GC in popular use is stop-the-world.
22:06:50 <Gregor> If you don't stop the world, you need guards. Great for real-time, bad for fast-time.
22:07:15 <alise> Gregor: actually, an in-thread mark and sweep is quite easy
22:07:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm... when a process is running, isn't the rest of the world "stopped"?
22:07:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not if you have more than one core!
22:07:39 <alise> And, uh, yeah, but... stop-the-world means "don't run ANYTHING until we're done".
22:08:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, we could possible make GCing work similarly to the process-switch code...
22:08:37 <alise> Gregor: Spawn a new thread. Copy whatever data structure lets you know which memory locations are free. Allocate a bit-array as long as the number of objects currently allocated, with the possibility for expansion. Go through the heap. Do the mark stuff to the bit-array, but don't mark it if it's in the free list (i.e., it's a new object since we started).
22:08:42 <alise> Finally, free 'em all up.
22:08:55 <alise> Uh, don't free it if it's in the free list, that is.
22:08:59 <alise> You know what I mean.
22:09:12 <Gregor> alise: Oh yeah, I remember that idea.
22:09:23 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so does this happen with a similar mechanism to process-switching?
22:09:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The GC? No.
22:09:31 <Gregor> alise: But to copy the data structures you need to ... copy the entire heap.
22:09:32 <alise> The GC needs to be very tricksy.
22:09:37 <alise> It will be an integral part of the OS.
22:09:42 <alise> Gregor: No, just the free list or whatever.
22:09:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, alise: why not split it up in different arenas? Presumably you will have some non-stored results. Or are you going to write the result of every calculating out to memory? Like an intermediate result when doing a floating point calculation?
22:09:49 <alise> Whatever malloc uses to decide "what memory locations can I give out?"
22:10:34 <Vorpal> alise, not spilling registers to main memory is an important optimisation of compilers. Good register allocation.
22:10:42 <Vorpal> sure, I would love if you didn't have to
22:11:00 <Vorpal> but the speed difference is actually quite noticeable for some sort of tasks
22:11:24 <alise> Vorpal: the first version of the OS will probably be very stupid and inefficient.
22:11:29 <alise> but that's alright.
22:11:38 <alise> I mean, we can't even GC the whole objectspace.
22:11:54 <alise> Unless you want to GC all 4358935793457934579834759835739845 things you've consumed, written, or whatever, in the past whatever.
22:11:59 <alise> You need to do it bit-by-bit.
22:12:03 <Vorpal> alise, just avoid making fundamental design decisions stupid and inefficient.
22:12:07 <Phantom_Hoover> It'd be like stealing a toothpick to use as a javelin.
22:12:20 <Vorpal> alise, inefficient implementation is a lot easier to correct than inefficient design
22:12:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh so that's what i did wrong
22:12:41 <alise> Vorpal: of course, we'll end up totally iterating with new code many times before we actually figure out what we need to do...
22:12:43 <pikhq> alise: So, you want an incremental garbage collector.
22:12:45 <alise> if we ever do anything :P
22:13:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:13:14 <alise> pikhq: Incremental, parallel-with-code, generational, concurrent (i.e. multithreaded), non-resource-heavy GC of wisdom and happiness and fluffy pink rainbow unicorn kittens.
22:13:16 <Vorpal> alise, and designing around "no non-persistent state" to the degree that if you calculate a+b+c you need to write out a+b to memory before calculating that + c would be ... daft.
22:13:19 <alise> pikhq: And a pony!
22:13:24 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: less so than i used to be
22:13:28 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, well, that's a compiler optimisation. :P
22:13:40 <pikhq> alise: Sooo... You want what GHC wants.
22:13:46 <fizzie> I sort-of golfed ais's new "Cancel fractions" anagolf problem in Forth -- not well, 173 bytes, but anyway -- and here's the stderr of the working (anagolf ignores it) entry: http://p.zem.fi/pu9k -- that's one awfully bitchy interpreter. (Okay, so maybe my code isn't very well-behaving either.)
22:13:51 <Vorpal> alise, just remember that can go *across* expressions in a function.
22:14:03 <Vorpal> alise, and with inlining, if you decide to do that, across functions
22:14:11 <alise> fizzie: show your code?
22:14:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: also what cleverness remains tends to be overwhelmed by my laziness
22:14:28 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, except GHC doesn't regularly GC a 1 TB object space.
22:14:38 <alise> pikhq: Of course, the whole point is to rabidly AVOID doing that in our case.
22:15:14 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: less so than i used to be <--- hm? Is it not the usual case of learning enough to know how little you actually know?
22:15:43 <alise> it's called forgetfulness and age.
22:15:45 <Vorpal> <alise> pikhq: Incremental, parallel-with-code, generational, concurrent (i.e. multithreaded), non-resource-heavy GC of wisdom and happiness and fluffy pink rainbow unicorn kittens. <-- and without special hardware support?
22:15:48 <fizzie> alise: But then you'd steal my points! Well, okay, http://p.zem.fi/frac7
22:15:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, your soul will have to be electrocuted regularly.
22:16:17 <alise> I love how "aptitude upgrade" is deprecated for "safe-upgrade".
22:16:23 <alise> *"aptitude safe-upgrade".
22:16:34 <Vorpal> alise, there is an obvious way to do a completely concurrent GC.
22:16:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Who said anything about "without special hardware support"?
22:16:51 <alise> pikhq: Without special hardware support.
22:16:53 <pikhq> There will be a PCIe garbage collector.
22:17:01 <alise> psht, put the GC in the cpu
22:17:05 <alise> oh wait, that's just what a sane lisp machine would do
22:17:08 <fizzie> I like the gcd in frac7, though: begin ?dup while tuck mod repeat, and that's all.
22:17:17 <alise> fizzie: Is that a full gcd?
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22:17:29 <pikhq> alise: Putting it on PCIe is as close as you can get without actually modifying hardware design.
22:17:30 <Vorpal> alise, Do what NILFS does (or whatever it is called) but for the heap
22:17:31 <fizzie> It's Euclid's algorithm, a b -> gcd(a, b).
22:17:37 <alise> fizzie: Pretty nice.
22:18:05 <alise> fizzie: Although Chuck hates you for using tuck, I bet.
22:18:09 <pikhq> (as it *could* then have access to the entire heap)
22:18:14 <alise> Why does my gforth freeze on "see X"?
22:18:18 <alise> It outputs "Code x" then hangs.
22:18:18 <Vorpal> alise, that is, make your memory a circular buffer. You can go behind and clean stuff up. Obviously you can't reference what is unreachable at any one point
22:18:20 <alise> Do I need gdb or what?
22:18:26 <alise> Because I have gdb.
22:18:37 <Vorpal> alise, snapshot based GC
22:18:50 <alise> yes, let's just copy the entirety of your hard disk
22:19:11 <alise> that's just fork()-gc
22:19:14 <Vorpal> alise, that way the GC will get a consistent picture of the state
22:19:14 <alise> which has some flaw that i've forgotten
22:19:17 <alise> cpressey: what was the flaw again?
22:19:40 <Vorpal> this assumes single assignment of course
22:19:54 <Vorpal> if you are able to modify the state it gets a lot more tricky
22:20:11 <fizzie> alise: I don't know, but I get raw binary garbage out of something like "see catch", which is pretty ugly too.
22:20:39 <Vorpal> and we are back to the not quite as awesome rotated log
22:20:41 <alise> no #gforth, grumble
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22:21:02 <Vorpal> which of course gives you natural versioning
22:21:11 <Vorpal> of absolutely everything
22:21:23 <alise> I wish the integration stuff for Chrome was less rubbish.
22:21:32 <alise> (The scrollbars extension especially.)
22:22:51 <pikhq> Ugh, the scrollbars.
22:22:58 <alise> pikhq: there is an extension to fix them
22:23:07 <alise> but it doesn't work on https:// and text/plain it seems
22:24:02 <alise> cpressey_: that's because it's
22:24:05 <alise> what you need to do is
22:24:15 <alise> errors[0] += 'boo'
22:24:17 <alise> no, i am not kidding.
22:24:19 <olsner> cpressey_: if you can, please kill Python completely
22:24:25 <alise> i think there's a nicer way to do this
22:24:34 <cpressey_> the nicer way is to write it in lua
22:24:39 <cpressey_> django does not make that an option, sadly
22:24:49 <alise> cpressey: make it a class, for instance
22:25:06 <alise> class r(object): def __init__(self): self.errors = []; def __call__(self): self.errors += 'boo'
22:26:12 <cpressey_> any language that works like that, i don't trust
22:26:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:26:33 <cpressey_> alise: i will (sigh) make it a class (sigh)
22:26:52 <Vorpal> <cpressey_> http://pastie.org/1156763 <-- call c before defining it. Solves the issue. Of course now you have another problem to solve.
22:27:06 <cpressey_> still boggling at the errors[0] thing working though
22:27:27 <Vorpal> cpressey_, I don't see the issue with that code. Nor do I see why errors[0] would work
22:28:30 <alise> Vorpal: 'x += y' is 'x = x + y'
22:28:40 <alise> python has no variable declaration indicator
22:28:47 <alise> so all new assignments in a scope declare a new variable
22:28:58 <alise> rather than referring to the upper function -- because python doesn't really have closures per se
22:29:09 <alise> foo[0] = ... works because that's not a variable
22:29:16 <alise> it depends on foo existing
22:29:18 <alise> so it looks for a foo
22:29:20 <alise> finds it from the upper scop
22:29:28 <alise> cpressey_: in python 3 i think you can do
22:29:31 <cpressey_> actually I did this: upvalue={'errors':[]}
22:29:36 <alise> dunno if it works in 2.7
22:29:41 <Vorpal> <alise> foo[0] = ... works because that's not a variable <-- ugh
22:29:43 <alise> that's obviously the simple way to do it
22:30:51 <cpressey_> what if I read it before I assign to it?
22:30:59 <cpressey_> that's easier to explain in a comment
22:31:04 <Vorpal> if you want to use python and you don't need compatibility, just use python 3.
22:31:10 <alise> pikhq: what Chrome can look like on Ubuntu: http://news.softpedia.com/images/news2/Ubuntu-10-04-Radiance-and-Ambiance-Themes-for-Google-Chrome-2.jpg
22:31:23 <alise> pikhq: but it doesn't do the scrollbars on text files and https://
22:31:26 <alise> text/plain, that is
22:31:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not right now
22:31:29 <pikhq> alise: So very almost native.
22:31:37 <alise> <Vorpal> if you want to use python and you don't need compatibility, just use python 3. ;; the only reason to use Python is libraries
22:31:38 <alise> i.e. compatibility
22:31:41 <Vorpal> alise, how do the scrollbars usually look
22:31:45 <alise> Vorpal: different.
22:31:55 <Vorpal> alise, good point. Don't know how many libraries are translated yet
22:32:17 <Vorpal> alise, due to compatibility right? XD
22:32:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: Aero scrollbars.
22:32:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, doesn't mean anything to me
22:32:27 <alise> Vorpal: http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/extra/LINUX/large/chrome-stable-02_large.jpg
22:32:32 <alise> default chrome scrollbars on linux
22:32:35 <alise> except they have ends now, whatever
22:32:48 <cpressey_> no, it don't. rotten little language, eh wot
22:32:54 <alise> anyway, the integration is perfect with the extensions, just not on https:// and text/plain (and presumably... images?)
22:33:00 <pikhq> Okay, somewhat close to Aero.
22:33:01 <Vorpal> alise, look normal apart from missing arrows at end?
22:33:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: Aero is the Vista theme.
22:33:06 <alise> cpressey: try "nonlocal x"
22:33:12 <alise> Vorpal: no, those aren't normal gtk scrollbars.
22:33:28 <alise> see http://news.softpedia.com/images/news2/Ubuntu-10-04-Radiance-and-Ambiance-Themes-for-Google-Chrome-2.jpg for what it should look like with that gtk theme
22:33:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, my total time using vista is about 20 minutes.
22:33:34 <alise> i.e. very different
22:33:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, over a year ago
22:34:03 <Vorpal> alise, okay they look like clearlooks ones though!
22:34:15 <pikhq> Oh, I see. It's using the Android widgets.
22:34:26 <alise> pikhq: it is? haha
22:35:00 <Vorpal> alise, if those turn blue with the window is in the fg it matches clearlooks apart from missing arrow buttons
22:35:03 <pikhq> alise: Because it's bloody hard to get GTK to work in the way that Chrome wants it to.
22:35:07 <alise> they stay like that
22:35:12 <Vorpal> alise, ah, that is strange
22:35:16 <alise> pikhq: yeah chrome is a bit perverse :)
22:35:18 <alise> pikhq: it works well on windows
22:35:25 <alise> but the linux port evidently gave them headaches
22:35:39 <alise> it's a damn fast browser though and the actual ui is nice, so
22:36:00 <Vorpal> alise, it looks incredibly non-native on Windows too!
22:36:01 <pikhq> I'd imagine they just used a *lot* of things that only Win32 allows because Win32 is perverse like that.
22:36:05 <Vorpal> alise, at least on XP and in 7
22:36:08 <Vorpal> haven't tried in vista
22:36:10 <alise> Vorpal: on XP, yes
22:36:17 <alise> with Aero on, it looks great
22:36:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: On Vista and 7 it uses/imitates the native theme.
22:36:21 <alise> the tab bar is actually in the transparent title bar
22:36:31 <Vorpal> alise, aero off due to it being virtualbox with intel graphics on host
22:36:31 <alise> pikhq: it requires Aero
22:36:36 <alise> Vorpal: well, precisely
22:36:40 <alise> with Aero it looks fine
22:36:50 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/48/Chrome_windows.png
22:36:58 <alise> where that title bar is the normal translucent aero one
22:36:59 <Vorpal> alise, of course I would like to argue aero doesn't look fine .P
22:37:08 <alise> Vorpal: well, it looks "right" for the rest of the environment.
22:37:15 <alise> hmm, the scrollbars work on images
22:37:20 <alise> maybe the dev build makes it all work
22:37:47 <pikhq> It apparently also looks native on OS X.
22:38:18 <alise> it looks as native as anything that flagrantly violates the OS X conventions as much as it does can hope to
22:38:39 <alise> http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en-GB/images/dlpage_mac.jpg
22:38:49 <alise> a bit weird what with the tab bar being pushed right to make way for the window buttons
22:38:52 <Vorpal> alise, looks native to me
22:39:16 <alise> Vorpal: yeah, but OS X has more obeyed conventions than other OSes
22:39:21 <alise> and doing that in the title bar is freaky shit :)
22:39:30 <pikhq> alise: Okay, well. As native as it can get without stopping saying "fuck you" to the OS X UI conventions.
22:39:31 <Vorpal> alise, *that* I agree on
22:39:37 <Vorpal> alise, for no good reason
22:40:06 <alise> Vorpal: Well, it has a good reason in Chrome's UI design.
22:40:10 <alise> It just doesn't belong on OS X.
22:40:38 <Vorpal> alise, besides I never found slightly inhomogeneous UIs a problem. And the only OS X version I used to any non-trivial extent is Tiger. Which had a mess of different UIs
22:40:42 <alise> (Specifically, Chrome's UI design: "We use the browser so much and for so many varying things that they're basically hosts to applications; therefore, crap the idea of even having a browser. All it is is a bunch of tabbed windows with controls inside.
22:40:52 <alise> Vorpal: It's not about the look, it's about the work.
22:41:19 <alise> I bet you wouldn't like your keyboard layout depending on which program you use; or some menus being horizontal; or whatever.
22:41:29 <alise> Or buttons looking like links in some applications.
22:41:58 <Vorpal> alise, I can think of all of those in various X apps :P
22:42:24 <alise> it shouldn't happen though :)
22:42:39 <pikhq> And it happens less and less in X these days.
22:42:43 <Vorpal> alise, no the thing that annoys me is "release button closes menu" so you need to *hold down* button to keep menu open
22:42:55 <pikhq> What with X only having 2 UI toolkits...
22:43:06 <pikhq> ... Ones that don't suck, that is.
22:43:07 <Vorpal> alise, I was using some weird athena-widget app to program an AVR processor last week that worked like that
22:43:46 <Vorpal> alise, was at a lab at university
22:44:39 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, no the thing that annoys me is "release button closes menu" so you need to *hold down* button to keep menu open ;; original Macintosh did that :)
22:44:40 <Vorpal> alise, and that was over the parallel port too. (the programming). Haven't used that for years.
22:44:46 <alise> original macintosh had tiny menus, though
22:44:47 <Vorpal> alise, I know original mac did it
22:45:08 <Vorpal> alise, and this had huge menus. Like you had to select AVR model from one
22:45:12 <Vorpal> with sub menus for series
22:45:37 <Vorpal> alise, and the sub menus opened when you moved halfway to the → that indicates the submenu
22:45:50 <Vorpal> alise, it was basically "worst UI I used the last 5 years"
22:46:19 <Vorpal> alise, and the font was tiny. Didn't help that because of the parport requirement we had to use old computers. One with CRTs attached
22:46:28 <Vorpal> since the new ones lacks it
22:46:42 <Vorpal> alise, at least changing from 60 Hz to 75 Hz helped somewhat
22:46:48 <Vorpal> with avoiding headache
22:49:23 <Vorpal> alise, I googled the program name. It seems open source. But I think the version installed there might have been old. Can only find a screenshot for the windows version... Not the linux one.
22:49:24 <fizzie> Heh, legacy-free computers. Today I went to my supervisor's office (he's in the UK right now) to set his computer ready for a three-way Skype conference; he had taken his very custom ergo-keyboard and mouse with him, and left the university-supplied kbd+mouse there. Unfortunately both were PS/2, and in the meanwhile his workstation had been updated to legacy-free USB-only one.
22:49:54 <Vorpal> http://www.lancos.com/img/ponydump.png is the windows one. Even there stuff like text size for the menus is off
22:50:19 <Vorpal> and it was way worse in the linux version used there
22:51:43 <Vorpal> and the bg was the classical athena dark grey
22:51:56 <Vorpal> which is quite unusable with black text at small sizes on a blurry CRT
22:53:14 <fizzie> Font selection from a "close when the mouse cursor wanders off" submenu thing is a "nice" UI feature too, especially on a system with hundreds of typefaces. I've seen that in multiple programs, I think.
22:54:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't think these closed like that, well submenus did but...
22:54:39 <cpressey_> fizzie: that seems very oldschool mac-ish to me
22:55:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh I forgot the linux version had missized labels and such
22:55:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, for bus timing calibration the Yes button was hidden under the "are you sure" question except for about 10 pixels
22:56:02 <Vorpal> the no button was completely invisible
22:56:10 <cpressey_> alise: it no understand nonlocal. bah
22:56:28 <Vorpal> cpressey_, switch to 3
22:58:25 <Vorpal> cpressey_, it also makes "print" a function. Rather than a statement
22:58:36 <Vorpal> which is rather more sane too
22:59:37 <fizzie> Hah, again I was reminded of the System.out.println statement. :p
23:00:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah well, that is for a non-scripting language.
23:00:15 <Vorpal> Plus it is not in the normal namespace
23:00:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:00:22 <fizzie> (There was also a "System.in.read" "(" expr ")" syntax for expressions.
23:00:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, but echo in bash is not a part of the syntax
23:00:27 <cpressey_> Vorpal: ... yeah great, I'll just close the ticket with "Won't Fix -- Python version not at 3"
23:00:41 <Vorpal> it is a normal command. A builtin yes, but also an external one
23:00:55 <Vorpal> cpressey_, work around it then
23:04:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:05:08 <Vorpal> cpressey_, is there any import from __future__ thing for the nonlocal thingy?
23:05:20 -!- cpressey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:07:03 <Vorpal> cpressey, tough luck: http://psf.upfronthosting.co.za/roundup/tracker/issue8018
23:07:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:07:18 <Vorpal> why did google give that
23:08:22 <Vorpal> http://bugs.python.org/issue8018
23:08:53 <Vorpal> both are same ip though
23:11:46 <alise> <Vorpal> and the bg was the classical athena dark grey
23:11:46 <alise> <Vorpal> which is quite unusable with black text at small sizes on a blurry CRT
23:11:50 <alise> if you can set dpi you can set colour resources
23:12:16 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't have root, and this was not modern ubuntu
23:12:28 <Vorpal> alise, so I doubt I can set DPI
23:12:32 <Vorpal> sure I could set resources
23:12:40 <Vorpal> alise, didn't have time to do that during the lab
23:13:34 <Vorpal> alise, hm that was possible with gnome monitor settings
23:13:46 <Vorpal> alise, it was feisty though. Very old ubuntu version
23:13:47 <alise> SomeRidiculousThing: white
23:13:51 <alise> SomeRidiculousThingForeground: black
23:13:55 <alise> a bit hard if you don't have time though
23:14:02 <Vorpal> alise, indeed I lacked the time
23:14:09 <Vorpal> alise, how old is feisty?
23:14:31 <alise> http://www.lancos.com/img/ponydump.png ;; is it really called PonyProg2000? <3
23:14:38 <alise> Vorpal: just april 2007
23:15:08 <alise> Now *Warty* is old; http://www.sizlopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/ubuntu-warthog.png.
23:15:14 <alise> Take a look at that brown, oh yeah.
23:15:21 <alise> Industrial GTK theme indahouse. And the default GNOME foot, too!
23:15:39 <Vorpal> alise, it said feisty but the bg was as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ubuntu-desktop-2-804-20080708.png
23:15:49 <alise> Hoary Hedgehog then upgraded to Brown But With Clearlooks and a Fancy Background: http://www.sizlopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/ubuntu-hedgehog.png
23:17:00 <alise> 6.06 introduced the brown/orange look and all: http://www.sizlopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/ubuntu-drake.png
23:17:11 <alise> (And, uh, was probably the first release not to be rubbish.)
23:17:31 <alise> Vorpal: Can you believe Ubuntu has only been going since 2004?
23:17:32 <Vorpal> alise, jaunty was a damn good ubuntu version
23:17:41 <Vorpal> alise, yes I can. 2004 is a long time
23:17:49 <alise> yeah it was more surprising in 2007 or so :P
23:18:06 <alise> 9.04 was very good, yes
23:18:12 <alise> gotta say though, I don't mind 10.04 apart from a few things
23:18:18 <Vorpal> alise, better than 9.10 and 10.04 IMO
23:18:33 <Vorpal> alise, like 10 of wakeup / sec when idle rather than 50
23:18:37 <alise> i'm so glad 11.04 will be called "Natty Narwhal"
23:18:40 <alise> Vorpal: hardware issues, ok
23:18:50 <alise> since 10.04 very much optimised that stuff
23:18:53 <Vorpal> alise, regression in 2.6.31 and later
23:19:05 <Vorpal> alise, so karmic has that issue too
23:19:13 <Vorpal> alise, for the series of CPU which I have
23:19:23 <alise> ha ha sucks to be you :P
23:19:28 <Vorpal> (core 2 duo, P8xxx iirc)
23:19:33 * alise dances around with his Toshiba
23:20:25 <Vorpal> anyway if it was 7.04 why did it had this bg .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ubuntu-desktop-2-804-20080708.png
23:20:28 <Vorpal> and I checked the version
23:20:48 <alise> someone set it, perhaps
23:21:00 <alise> Vorpal: maybe network thing
23:21:03 <alise> with a shared backgrounds directory?
23:21:12 <Vorpal> alise, I checked and saw no nfs though
23:21:23 <alise> you're paranoid to the max
23:21:29 <Vorpal> alise, no I'm curious :P
23:21:36 <Vorpal> alise, funny thing in ifconfig. The only ethernet was eth3
23:21:41 <Vorpal> even ifconfig -a listed no other
23:21:55 <Vorpal> alise, I find that rather strange
23:22:08 <alise> maybe it had 4 ethernet ports.
23:22:25 <Vorpal> alise, not that I saw, and I was connecting various stuff on the back
23:22:38 <Vorpal> alise, and yeah ifconfig -a would list them
23:24:08 <alise> http://www.chromeexperiments.com/detail/balldroppings/ ;; THIS IS SO FUN
23:24:29 <Vorpal> alise, requires flash?
23:24:36 <alise> don't think so; maybe it does
23:24:40 <alise> if you don't hear anything, then yes
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23:24:49 <alise> the balls bouncing (hee hee) creates beyootiful music based on your lines
23:24:53 <alise> it's quite hypnotic
23:24:55 <Vorpal> "Temporarily allow http://www.youtube.com/v/G6IKsek8DKE (<OBJECT>, application/x-shockwave-flash)"
23:25:02 <Vorpal> doubt it works in firefox anyway
23:25:23 <alise> it's nothing chrome-specific
23:26:06 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. I don't have flash
23:26:12 <alise> <Vorpal> "Temporarily allow http://www.youtube.com/v/G6IKsek8DKE (<OBJECT>, application/x-shockwave-flash)"
23:26:29 <Vorpal> and it shouldn't rely on it
23:26:29 <alise> sudo aptitude install gnash-mozilla or whatever
23:26:44 <Vorpal> alise, my laptop is in backpack
23:26:52 <alise> i was mocking your choice of OS
23:27:02 <Vorpal> alise, arch is rather nice though
23:27:08 <Vorpal> alise, you can't deny that
23:27:17 <Vorpal> alise, sure, not as well integrated of course
23:27:26 <Vorpal> but it is better for a desktop
23:27:28 <alise> if you have the patience to set up your own environment it's nice
23:27:32 <alise> but Arch/GNOME is not much fun
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23:27:49 <Vorpal> alise, if I try to set up an ipv6 router with network manager messing up I would go spare
23:27:53 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
23:27:56 <Vorpal> here it is all nice and clean static network config
23:28:06 <Vorpal> well, dhcp, but no network manager at least
23:28:08 <alise> you can do that with ubuntu too :P
23:28:19 <alise> <Vorpal> "Temporarily allow http://www.youtube.com/v/G6IKsek8DKE (<OBJECT>, application/x-shockwave-flash)"
23:28:20 <Vorpal> alise, NM is a pain though
23:28:23 <alise> that's the video of playing it
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23:28:26 <alise> press Launch Experiment or whatever
23:28:41 <alise> Vorpal: so disable NM
23:28:42 <Vorpal> alise, it says missing plugin on the launch experiment page
23:28:54 <Vorpal> alise, and the mdadm setup?
23:30:05 <Vorpal> alise, and the boot time? I timed jaunty and lucid. Jaunty is about 1/3 of luicd
23:30:16 <Vorpal> alise, of course arch on my old system beats both
23:30:52 <alise> Lucid boots almost instantly on supported hardware
23:30:53 <Vorpal> sempron 3300+ @ 2 GHz vs. core 2 duo @ 2.26 GHz . You think the latter would be faster.
23:30:54 <alise> well not almost instantly but
23:30:58 <alise> like 5x faster than jaunty
23:31:00 <Vorpal> alise, I don't have an SSD
23:31:06 <alise> it's clearly a hardware support issue
23:31:10 <alise> and i meant on same hardware
23:31:15 <Vorpal> alise, or encrypted disk perhaps
23:31:18 <alise> seriously, they optimised the fuck out of boot for lucid
23:31:26 <alise> no, encrypted disk has basically no overhead
23:31:34 <alise> probably just your hardware doesn't like it
23:31:36 <Vorpal> alise, dm-crypt. Not in the disk itself
23:31:53 <Vorpal> alise, ureadahead takes like 20 seconds. dumping ureadahead pack files says it loads 175 MB
23:31:56 <Vorpal> from all over the disk
23:32:24 <Vorpal> alise, so I believe that is the issue
23:32:30 <Vorpal> of course it is fast once ureadahead finished
23:32:35 <Vorpal> but it takes quite some time
23:33:01 <Vorpal> alise, readahead on jaunty was faster. Fewer files loaded I think
23:33:55 <Vorpal> alise, and now, almost night. Will check any reply in a few minutes. Then bed
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23:38:58 <Vorpal> alise, are you just trying to confuse me and make me stay?
23:39:24 <Vorpal> and since you hate me, why would you want to do that
23:39:48 <alise> paranoia must be fun
23:40:05 <Vorpal> it is also sadly accurate
23:42:03 <Vorpal> alise, oh well, done now. Night →
23:42:15 <Vorpal> alise, I thought you said I was the sanest person here
23:42:23 <Vorpal> I presume you just retracted that
23:42:28 <Vorpal> for which I'm grateful
23:42:40 <alise> sane in a boring way
23:42:51 <Vorpal> alise, so sane and crazy?
23:43:08 <Vorpal> alise, seems... like a contraction
23:43:50 <Vorpal> hm sane is opposite of mad. And mad is a synonym for crazy
23:44:09 <alise> there are more subtle facets to the meaning of those words than your mind appears to allow.
23:44:43 <Vorpal> oh well, true that there are subtleties. But lets just abstract those away
23:45:13 <alise> That's what you are, indeed.
23:45:44 <Vorpal> alise, ... It was obvious from the context that I meant that not abstracting that away was boring
23:46:42 <alise> Yes, but using that context would have been boring.
23:47:18 <Vorpal> hm 7 credit card sized bits of plastic. Why can't they merge them into, say, 2 or 3?
23:47:36 <Vorpal> heck two are those are from different sections of the university
23:47:43 <Vorpal> at least those could be merged...
23:48:21 <olsner> someone should build a credit card-sized programmable credit card
23:48:37 <Vorpal> might be tricky to merge commuter card with university door card though
23:48:44 <Vorpal> both use magnetic strip and no chip
23:49:13 <Vorpal> but university door card and studentrabatt (whatever that is in English)
23:49:20 <olsner> well, that's what I mean, the magnetic strip should be programmable and switchable
23:49:29 <olsner> so that you can have all your cards in one
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23:50:07 <Vorpal> olsner, yes not sure I'd trust the university doors with my bank card though
23:50:40 <olsner> the cool version would be with a card-thin touch interface on a simple LCD covering the part that isn't the magnetic strip
23:51:01 <olsner> you wouldn't have the bank card selected when trying to enter a door
23:51:53 <Vorpal> olsner, and the battery? where?
23:52:15 <Vorpal> olsner, tricky with that thinness
23:52:44 <olsner> well, I'll just assume it's possible and let smart people deal with the problems while I complain at their slow progress
23:53:22 <olsner> *you* for example, why haven't you already built this? obviously you are either lazy or incompetent!
23:55:13 <alise> <olsner> *you* for example, why haven't you already built this? obviously you are either lazy or incompetent!
23:55:19 <Vorpal> olsner, why haven't you done it?!
23:55:22 <alise> Vorpal: you've gone to bed twice now, by the way.
23:55:24 <Vorpal> alise, and what about you?
23:55:36 <Vorpal> alise, no I haven't. I said was was going to bed. Then I did it once
23:57:06 <Vorpal> actually it could have been 8 cards. Last year they combined door-card with university library card.
23:58:51 <Vorpal> hm att betala kåravgift eller ej. Det är frågan. Nu är det ju inte obligatoriskt längre... Och våran kår suger.
23:59:20 <Vorpal> olsner, hm, kanske det
23:59:35 <olsner> jag skulle betala kåravgift tror jag
23:59:48 <Vorpal> olsner, jag läser väl för fan inte språkvetenskap :P
00:00:22 <Vorpal> olsner, 100 kr hm. Tja, gör nog det.
00:00:55 <olsner> hur funkar det med kårhus och sånt? får man komma in på fester etc utan att vara medlem i kåren?
00:01:09 <Vorpal> olsner, jag går inte på festerna!
00:01:20 <Vorpal> olsner, jag bor två mil utanför stan
00:01:37 <olsner> fail, fail och fail :)
00:02:18 <alise> you know, i can just translate all of that
00:02:34 * pikhq no longer has long hair. Feels a bit odd.
00:02:39 <Vorpal> alise, fine. the reason I switched was because I have no clue wtf "kåravgiften" is in English
00:02:52 <alise> Vorpal: translates "student union fees" here
00:02:55 <alise> <Vorpal> [...] And our corps sucks.
00:03:00 <alise> <olsner> *our corps sucks :)
00:03:13 <alise> Google Translate: bad at translating foreign errors in language!
00:03:22 <alise> <olsner> jag skulle betala kåravgift tror jag -> <olsner> I would pay student union fees, I think
00:03:34 <alise> Vorpal: IT'S TOTALLY CORPS (says Google)
00:03:36 <alise> pikhq: Ugh fix it.
00:03:44 <alise> pikhq: Your neck is cold and your ears painfully exposed.
00:03:52 <alise> <Vorpal> Olsner, I read well the hell not linguistics: P
00:04:02 <Vorpal> olsner, oh "Uppdatering: PayEx har nu fått alla uppgifter från banken och kan därför i samarbete med Montania starta igång medlemssystemet i början på nästa vecka!"
00:04:06 <pikhq> alise: Bald spot + long hair = vomit
00:04:07 <Vorpal> I can't pay it yet it seems
00:04:15 <alise> <olsner> how it works with the student union building and stuff? you may enter at parties etc but to be a member of the Corps?
00:04:15 <alise> <Vorpal> Olsner, I'm not at the party!
00:04:15 <alise> <Vorpal> Olsner, I live two mil out of town
00:04:15 <alise> <Vorpal> And I am a teetotaler
00:04:15 <alise> <olsner> fail, fail and fail:)
00:04:30 <Gregor> <pikhq> alise: Bald spot + long hair = vomit // THIS WILL BE ME
00:04:48 <alise> cpressey: olsner actually said "fail".
00:04:57 <alise> Vorpal: close enough that i grokked the meaning enough to know you were being your usual boring self
00:04:58 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes, but you definitely give absolutely no credence to any other person's tastes in your personal apperance.
00:05:09 <Vorpal> cpressey, or rather, culture imperialism :P
00:05:11 <alise> Translation: <pikhq> Gregor: You're hideous.
00:05:12 <pikhq> To the point of having actually painful colors. :P
00:05:25 <Gregor> alise: That was my understanding.
00:05:37 <olsner> Vorpal: men det är lite coolt att vara nykterist ändå, jag brukar tänka mig att nykterister är det för att de har dolda ninjaskills som skulle vara alldeles för farliga om de släppte på hämningarna
00:05:44 <pikhq> alise: Actually, it's just that he manages to select precisely the wrong colors intentionally. It's kinda cool, though.
00:06:00 <olsner> "ninjaskills" - translate *that*!
00:06:02 <Vorpal> <pikhq> To the point of having actually painful colors. :P <-- I like Gregor doing it that way
00:06:15 <alise> so does going naked everywhere
00:06:22 <alise> olsner: "ninja skills"
00:06:26 <alise> THAT WAS DIFFICULT
00:06:32 <cpressey> Vorpal: indeed. bow down to our king
00:06:35 <pikhq> Instead of merely not caring about matching and stuff, he actually goes out and unmatches.
00:06:40 <cpressey> the king of the english language empire
00:06:52 <olsner> alise: OMG YOU CRACKED IT
00:06:59 <alise> Kuk-sugande jäveln tik skit fitta!
00:07:04 <alise> I LOVE GOOGLE TRANSLATE
00:07:06 <Vorpal> olsner, hm, men kom ihåg vem som kan köra hem efter festen!
00:07:57 <Vorpal> alise, tik? That is "female dog" but it is in no way an insult
00:08:06 <olsner> yep, bitch is 'bitch' in swedish, "tik" just means a female dog
00:08:13 <Vorpal> it would be rather incomprehensible as an insult
00:08:21 <Vorpal> olsner, bitch is not a Swedish word!
00:08:47 <olsner> it's used as a swedish word, thus it must be one
00:08:51 <alise> Enligt min åsikt i hermeneutik i alltihop har vi förlorat en känsla av eller riktning. En viss rening av bajs däck skall vara ordnade, så att vi kan automatisera vissa overaller bara.
00:09:17 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics
00:09:42 <Vorpal> alise, and why do you want to "automatisera vissa overaller bara"
00:10:01 <alise> That was "alls" :P
00:10:06 <alise> It was something like
00:10:06 <Vorpal> no it wasn't in Swedish
00:10:11 <Vorpal> it turned into "overalls"
00:10:35 <alise> In my opinion, with the hermeneutics of everything we have lost a sense or direction. A degree of [purification?] on the poop deck blah blah so we can aut...
00:10:37 <alise> basically it was nonsense
00:10:57 <alise> "icecream" -> "glass"
00:11:00 <alise> Google Translate \o/
00:11:04 <Vorpal> alise, yes what about it
00:11:09 <cpressey> oh, nonsense, i've heard of that
00:11:10 <Vorpal> for single words it works okay
00:11:11 <alise> wait, is it actually glass?
00:11:25 <Vorpal> alise, what else would it be?
00:11:31 <olsner> yep, glass is icecream, glas is glass
00:11:55 <cpressey> following that pattern, gla is iron
00:12:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, järn is iron
00:12:29 <Vorpal> <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics <-- tl;dr
00:12:39 <Vorpal> alise, glad is happy yes.
00:12:58 * cpressey itchin' for more extrapolatin'
00:12:58 <alise> i need a word starting "gla" that means some sort of person or being
00:13:01 <Vorpal> cpressey, as far as I know: nothing
00:13:27 <Vorpal> just do a concatenation of some sort
00:13:48 <Vorpal> I leave it as an exercise to the reader
00:13:54 <alise> google translate doesn't know how to do that.
00:14:21 <Vorpal> actually getting gla that way could be tricky
00:14:25 <alise> Vorpal: Glass glas glasyrer glasartade glad glasidioter.
00:14:44 <Vorpal> glasyrer <-- coating on pottery afaik
00:14:58 <alise> "Ice cream glass glazes glassy glad glass morons"
00:15:02 <alise> then concatenated the last two words
00:15:19 <Vorpal> meaning morons made of glass
00:15:39 <olsner> sounds nonsensical to me, but it's perfectly alright to make up your own words
00:15:41 <Vorpal> alise, at least that is how I would interpret it
00:16:08 <Vorpal> non-sensical and I just went with the default interpretation if none other is standard.
00:16:27 <Vorpal> olsner, I assume you end up with the same meaning as I did?
00:17:04 <alise> OH! Och spetsen ner ... fortfarande, härskaren av den och den är inte säker. Alltså: är inte säker på vad, varför, när, vilka eller hur, eller något annat ärende som gäller ärenden som händer med ärendet omkring honom. "Oavsett", sade han: helt fel. Som, ofokuserad, närmade sig kameran honom flyttade han snabbt så att den inte en skymt av honom ... och misslyckades, så var det.
00:17:28 <Vorpal> alise, not grammatically correct
00:17:33 <alise> Vorpal: what does it read as?
00:17:41 <alise> with in-head grammatical correction
00:17:44 <cpressey> oh, nonsense, i've heard of that
00:18:01 <Vorpal> "Overhead! and the tip down ... still"
00:18:08 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, for that language please visit www.perl.org or #perl - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:18:09 <olsner> cpressey: gladd would be the perfect participle of glädja (make happy)
00:18:22 <Vorpal> OH = overhead in Swedish, Åh = Oh
00:18:44 <cpressey> olsner: oh gosh, that doesn't make it easy. iron, happy, make happy...
00:18:46 <Vorpal> alise, can't be bothered to translate the rest
00:19:13 <cpressey> the next term in the series must be...: spontaneous combustion
00:19:23 <Vorpal> olsner, oh indeed it would. Not common really
00:19:37 <Vorpal> but that is about all I can think of
00:19:47 <Vorpal> and that is probably even more convoluted class
00:19:53 <Vorpal> than just perfect participle
00:20:15 <Vorpal> and I can't translate that
00:20:18 <olsner> preteritum, apparently
00:20:19 <alise> "Vad är det här jävla idiotiskt skitsnack?" kom rasande och såg buller of the Beast kapten - tredje division, fullt bepansrade, lastade hela tiden, primade med en detonator, du vet hur det är i dessa dagar. (Hur som helst, funderade han, att formulera mer skulle vara meningslös, skulle för sin publik inte förstår orden. Så fruktansvärt att behöva vara så krass ... men då han blev påmind om sin vrede, och den facklas. Hur som helst ...) Han iv
00:20:19 <alise> äg på sin nyfunna resa, han skulle gå till ...
00:20:45 <Vorpal> alise, nonsense after the second "
00:20:57 <alise> you mean the closing quote?
00:21:04 <alise> olsner: you interpret it
00:21:07 <alise> you're more forgiving
00:21:15 <Vorpal> alise, you need to do it shorter
00:21:55 <alise> google translate translates it back ... sort of okay :P
00:21:58 <Vorpal> "skulle för sin publik inte förstår orden" was rather fitting though
00:22:35 <alise> olsner: Vilken godhet-förbaskad fitta!
00:23:12 <Vorpal> alise, "goodness-damned" I think is the best backtranslation
00:23:17 <alise> Yeah, that's what I wrote.
00:23:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:23:22 <alise> gosh-darned just translated as gosh-darned.
00:23:29 <alise> I assume gosh doesn't mean gosh.
00:23:51 <alise> Vorpal: is there an equivalent of an -ing suffix?
00:23:59 <Sgeo> A parens-less stack-based language that mixes prefix and postfix
00:24:04 <alise> and a -s suffix? (on verbs; make -> makes)
00:24:06 <Vorpal> alise, presens is generally used
00:24:12 <alise> Vorpal: "FOOpresens"?
00:24:16 <alise> Also, aww, what do I do in that case?
00:24:18 <olsner> gosh would be jösses, I think
00:24:21 <Vorpal> alise, no as in the presens form
00:24:23 <Sgeo> I just want to give some examples right now
00:24:30 <Vorpal> like "read" rather than "reading"
00:24:46 <alise> but is there a way around it?
00:24:52 <alise> it's for a good cause!
00:24:57 <Vorpal> alise, we have a sort of -ing form but... it is rarely used, a subset of the English cases.
00:25:07 <alise> I'm trying to translate "Verbing weirds language."
00:25:15 <Vorpal> well. could be in stats
00:25:21 <olsner> verbande konstigar språk
00:25:33 <oerjan> alise: that's not the same -ing as for progressive
00:25:40 <Sgeo> These all print 10:
00:25:44 <Vorpal> is not -s as in third person
00:26:01 <Sgeo> This does not print 10:
00:26:02 <alise> Vorpal: the-act-of-verbing makes-weird language
00:26:14 <alise> except makes-weird must be expressed as "[weird as adjective][-s]"
00:26:24 <Vorpal> alise, "verbande konstifierar språk"
00:26:26 <oerjan> alise: i vaguely recall the norwegian translation from my old Tommy & Tigern magazines was "Verbing sprøer språket"
00:26:35 <olsner> I still vote for verbande, but makes-weird is hard to find a good word for I think
00:26:36 <Sgeo> + . 5 5 does NOT print 10
00:26:36 <Vorpal> olsner, what do you think about that one?
00:26:52 <alise> well it has to be [weird][suffix]
00:26:55 <alise> rather than using the proper form
00:26:57 <olsner> weirdifies ... could be worse
00:27:06 <alise> olsner: Vem är du som säger att det finns ingenting som du kan säga som inte redan sagts av en annan?! AAAAAAAAAA
00:27:11 <alise> oerjan: Tommy & Tigern xD
00:27:19 <Sgeo> Am I the only person on topic?
00:27:20 <Vorpal> alise, why can't it be the proper form
00:27:32 <alise> Vorpal: because that removes the humour
00:27:33 <oerjan> alise: basically for _that_ meaning norwegian uses -ing, and i suspect swedish as well
00:27:38 <olsner> Sgeo: we're on topic! it's just that our topic is different from yours
00:27:41 <alise> Vorpal: http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/.a/6a00df351e888f88340115706740f4970b-800wi
00:27:46 <Vorpal> alise, not sure it can be translated to Swedish
00:27:56 <oerjan> alise: english conflated the two meanings in its history, it used to have -ind vs. -ing iirc
00:27:58 <olsner> hmm, skulle vara verbning isåfall
00:27:59 <alise> Sgeo: bibbles means nothing
00:28:02 <Sgeo> Maybe I should write up a spec and ask for opinions
00:28:49 <Vorpal> <oerjan> alise: basically for _that_ meaning norwegian uses -ing, and i suspect swedish as well <-- which meaning?
00:28:52 <alise> olsner: Vorpal: Han härmade hans enda telefon över nedskärningen. Detta, då, var hans fostret.
00:29:10 <Vorpal> alise, s/hans/sin/ perhaps?
00:29:13 <alise> bah it translated fetus->baby
00:29:20 <alise> Vorpal: it's "He aped his only telephone at the cut. This, then, was his fetus."
00:29:25 <Vorpal> alise, no fostret = fetus
00:29:32 <Vorpal> it was the backtranslation that failed
00:29:36 <alise> google makes it baby the other way around
00:29:40 <alise> what would hans->sin do
00:29:50 <alise> google gives same backtranslation
00:30:00 <Vorpal> alise, no... nedskärningen = cut in the sense of "govt cuts funds for ..."
00:30:11 <Vorpal> alise, not in the sense of cut a cable
00:30:43 <Vorpal> alise, anyway the first hans should be "sin"
00:31:00 <Vorpal> alise, and I can't explain it. You use the same word in English
00:31:05 <Vorpal> it just sounds wrong in Swedish
00:31:17 <Vorpal> like pointing to the wrong "his"
00:31:21 <oerjan> Vorpal: the noun-making meaning of english -ing, as opposed to the participle-making one
00:31:22 <Vorpal> like in a previous sentence
00:31:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm. bråkning (flaxen preparation process iirc?)
00:32:00 <alise> "---!!!! Den hop arga anhängare av post-term aborter närmar! Jag kan inte --" var hans sista ord! Glädjas glädjas glädjas! ÅH! Åh lyckligaste dag! Varför? Varför? Nej varför: bara lycklig. Lycklig Lycklig Lycklig! Glädjas glädjas glädjas!
00:32:13 <olsner> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflexive_pronoun
00:32:23 <oerjan> Vorpal: norwegian is less consistent about whether to insert an -n- in between (there are semantic differences too iirc)
00:32:43 <Vorpal> olsner, can you explain the hans/sin difference there to alise
00:32:47 <alise> "---!!!! Pöbeln av arga supportrar efter sikt aborter närmar! Jag kan inte --" var hans sista ord! Glädjas glädjas glädjas! ÅH! Åh lyckligaste dag! Varför? Varför? Nej varför: bara lycklig. Lycklig Lycklig Lycklig! Glädjas glädjas glädjas!
00:32:51 <alise> may be a better translation
00:33:05 <oerjan> Vorpal: e.g. bygging vs. bygning (the act of building vs. the result)
00:33:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, we don't have the first
00:33:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, the latter would mean, something
00:33:33 <alise> [["---!!!! Den hop arga anhängare av post-term aborter närmar! Jag kan inte --" var hans sista ord! Glädjas glädjas glädjas! ÅH! Åh lyckligaste dag! Varför? Varför? Nej varför: bara lycklig. Lycklig Lycklig Lycklig! Glädjas glädjas glädjas!]] backtranslates better
00:33:36 <alise> not sure that means much, though
00:33:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, the result would be "byggnad" (building)
00:34:06 <oerjan> Vorpal: we have -nad too but not for that verb
00:34:32 <alise> pikhq: 黒人の有権者は常に同じです。
00:34:56 <alise> "Negro voters always have the same it."
00:36:27 <olsner> about hans/sin: if we take "tom gave peter his book" and replace the 'his' with 'hans' then it must refer to peter's book, but if you use 'sin' then it would be tom's book instead
00:36:38 <oerjan> alise: "sin" is the possessive pronoun used to refer back to the subject of the sentence, "hans" is used to refer to other males
00:36:51 <oerjan> (sin = reflexive possessive pronoun)
00:36:57 <olsner> oerjan's explanation is much more specific :)
00:36:58 <alise> having a word for subject vs. generic-person-mentioned is good
00:37:39 <Sgeo> I suppose just writing out a spec in here isn't that great an idea
00:37:47 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:37:49 <alise> Sgeo: use a text file
00:38:34 <alise> THE OFFICIAL TINY FONT COMPETITION IS NOW OVER
00:38:35 <olsner> alise: "den arga hopen", and you need a better translation of post-term abortion
00:38:42 <alise> Design a font smaller than 4x8. You get prizes.
00:38:49 <alise> (4x8 is Already Done: http://gnu.ethz.ch/linuks.mine.nu/atari/)
00:39:07 <Sgeo> Trying to clean out some gunk on my " key, and I'm not bothering to get a paperclip
00:39:12 <oerjan> alise: it only applies if the subject is in the 3rd person btw. i recall in czech své applies even with other persons
00:39:19 <alise> Sgeo: ' key, surely
00:39:24 <alise> oh, unless you have shift+' = "
00:40:16 <Sgeo> The key isn't reattaching
00:40:37 <Sgeo> There we go. ''''''''''''
00:40:43 <Sgeo> Now it's sunk in
00:41:00 <Sgeo> Now it feels weak
00:41:06 <Sgeo> '''''''''''''''''//]
00:41:38 <olsner> and, "glädjas" is probably the wrong translation there, you can't use it for exclamations of joy
00:42:12 <olsner> alise: hmm, and "nej varför ..." comes from something like "Not why: just happy"?
00:42:24 -!- comex_ has changed nick to comex.
00:42:39 <oerjan> alise: btw -s in english ~ -r in scandinavian languages, for both present of verbs and plural of nouns. i think they were confused by the fact that in english verbs in means 3rd person singular + present, while in scandinavian languages it means all persons
00:42:59 <alise> olsner: yes (to that last one)
00:43:19 <Sgeo> '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''['[''''''';;;'''''''''l/.;[;;;''///////l;'';;';;;;p;;;;;;;;;;;;'';''';''''';;;;;'''''''''''[[['''/?{//'[;]----.;ppp/p[/;'mkk'';'m';''''''''''''
00:43:39 <Sgeo> ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''/'[[[[[[[[[[[[[[['['''''''''''
00:44:22 <oerjan> the attack of the keyboard gunk
00:44:43 <Sgeo> '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
00:44:59 <olsner> alise: nej is no, not not
00:45:03 <olsner> (alltså ska det vara inte, inte nej)
00:45:05 <cpressey> Sgeo: I think I had that thought once
00:45:15 <cpressey> the RPN/FPN one, not the bibbles or the gunk ones
00:45:30 <cpressey> if i did, i never did anything with it
00:45:31 <alise> you can easily do it with negotiation
00:46:01 <olsner> hmm, but "no why: just joy" would be "inget varför: bara glädje"
00:46:22 <cpressey> i hope some of these show up in peoples' quit messages
00:46:33 <alise> evaluate all expressions in a function call. get all their types. find one that's a function type. look up in the function's record what types it accepts and outputs. continue for all the functions. pick the one that most precisely matches (subclasses match better than superclasses, etc., optional arguments match worse than non-optional arguments), and call it with the others in the relevant positions.
00:46:37 <alise> this allows totally free word order
00:46:57 <alise> assuming 'x' is a character and "x" is a string,
00:47:09 <oerjan> totally free world order
00:47:56 <oerjan> cpressey: spoilsport :D
00:48:14 <Sgeo> My idea allows infix too
00:48:22 <cpressey> oerjan: invent associative subtraction already!
00:48:27 <oerjan> now we just lack circumfix
00:48:39 <alise> so absically it's like mine but not as cool
00:48:45 <alise> cpressey: the order you specify would take precedence in such matters
00:48:53 <alise> because it can't negotiate the two; so it uses the source order
00:49:03 <oerjan> cpressey: *commutative (although you want associative too, with more arguments)
00:49:07 <alise> Pluvo does something similar to this.
00:49:09 <Sgeo> The plastic on this key has been mashed
00:49:16 <alise> commutative subtraction is just |x-y|
00:49:21 <alise> associative is difficult
00:49:41 <Sgeo> I have permanently damaged my ' key :(
00:50:37 <alise> somebody ask me what Pluvo is
00:51:18 <alise> Pluvo is http://inamidst.com/pluvo/, anyway.
00:51:53 <Sgeo> My ' key is now liable to fall off randomly
00:51:59 <cpressey> oh god not another programming language
00:52:14 <alise> hey andrew cooke commented on it cool
00:52:16 <alise> (first comment on http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1598)
00:52:22 <alise> pluvo is just an experimentally thing anyway
00:52:34 <oerjan> Sgeo: so basically it is now a catastrophe key?
00:52:49 <alise> http://inamidst.com/pluvo/doc/guide coordination stuff
00:53:17 <Sgeo> Maybe I can use superglue
00:54:44 * Sgeo should make a '" free language
00:54:55 <cpressey> my experimental language will be a great and superior language in the future when it gets out of the experimental stage
00:55:25 <oerjan> the ultimate in vapor-based computing
00:55:27 * Sgeo ponders ways to make . 5 5 + work
00:55:59 <alise> anyway that's my joke-idea from a few days ago
00:56:11 <alise> <Sgeo> Maybe I can use superglue ;; on a keyboard? uh, no.
00:56:22 <alise> putting scissor-switch keys back on is a bitch
00:56:28 <alise> Sgeo: ha ha sucks to be you
00:56:30 <alise> try and fit it in again
00:56:33 <alise> it's possible but... barely
00:56:40 <Sgeo> The plastic key is BROKEN
00:56:40 <alise> oerjan: PN/RPN mixing
00:56:44 <Sgeo> It won't stay on
00:56:46 <alise> Sgeo: then yeah, a tiny amount of superglue
00:56:53 <alise> it's in two pieces?
00:57:05 <Sgeo> But the ... thingy that holds it in place is chipped
00:57:24 <Sgeo> Before I realized what it was for, I chipped it further, thinking that it wouldn't go on because its deformity blocked it
00:58:09 <cpressey> uhhh... i wonder, does it make any sense to intern bigints?
00:58:14 <Sgeo> I seem to have misplaced the actual key, minutes after my dad told me not to lose it
00:59:23 <cpressey> if i say 'problem' there is a good chance i will say 'problem' again sometime. if i say 3,617,217,282...
00:59:59 <cpressey> well it depends right? but, yeah, no.
01:00:15 <olsner> why not just intern *everything*?
01:00:41 <cpressey> olsner: optimal sharing hash consing!
01:01:27 <olsner> yes! whatever that is!
01:01:51 <olsner> well, what is "optimal" sharing? isn't everything always shared if you're hash-consing?
01:02:08 <cpressey> optimal sharing = hash consing, i was being sloppy
01:02:28 <cpressey> unless there's some really really technical difference i'm not aware of
01:05:35 <olsner> I should really build a language with hash-consing some day
01:07:59 <olsner> not lisp-like though, more like a simplified haskell with at least some of the nice type-system features and basic polymorphism
01:08:50 <cpressey> idea before i forget: a language with dynamic "aspect-oriented" self-weaving of some kind, like we can eval a routine as a string and it can insert code around everywhere some pattern matches in the rest of the program
01:09:41 <cpressey> this could be seen as a generalization of "dynamic come from"
01:15:57 <cpressey> olsner: you should do that. and you should name it "Jonguilexiphonaugh"
01:16:10 <cpressey> and if you don't want to use that name... may I?
01:22:01 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:22:03 <Sgeo> And I must scream
01:22:11 <Sgeo> I can't find my dang ' key
01:22:31 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
01:22:49 <Sgeo> So much for using any language other than Underload or Brainfuck
01:24:22 <Sgeo> It was on the table...
01:24:30 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:25:05 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
01:28:22 * Sgeo imagines stacks and substacks
01:29:17 <Sgeo> So far, prefix notation can be used from within postfix notation, but not visa versa
01:29:22 * Sgeo wants the visa versa
01:31:52 <Sgeo> It does allow for a comfortable infix notation, at least
01:35:01 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:37:40 <oerjan> cpressey: i point you to /// which basically does _nothing_ but the two things you mention ;D
01:38:11 <oerjan> (that doesn't mean it's anything like what you meant)
01:38:16 <Sgeo> So far, easiest explanation of my thoughts:
01:38:28 <Sgeo> Normally, it's postfix
01:38:40 <Sgeo> But when there's stack underflow, it goes into a prefix-like mode
01:38:55 <Sgeo> Where the starved word waits for things to fill the stack before executing
01:38:59 <oerjan> <Sgeo> So much for using any language other than Underload or Brainfuck <-- also unlambda :)
01:39:11 <Sgeo> 1 + is an underflow, thus, it waits
01:39:17 <Sgeo> Then 1 fills what + needed
01:39:24 <Sgeo> + is an underflow
01:40:56 <Sgeo> So 1 + 1 and 1 1 + do the same thing
01:41:10 <Sgeo> And 1 1 + is not a stack underflow
01:42:45 <Sgeo> Maybe , could tell the next word that there's nothing on the stack
01:42:55 <Sgeo> To force prefix notation
01:45:19 <Sgeo> And ' causes the next single stack push to not count towards fulfilling an underflow until a word executes that causes the substack to have 1 element again
01:45:35 <Sgeo> So this would be valid:
01:46:06 <Sgeo> That leaves a 4 on the stack
01:47:11 <Sgeo> ' is "The next word does not satisfy the condition needed to fulfil..."
01:49:49 <cpressey> btw, it's not possible to find that page on esolangs.org by searching
01:50:57 * Sgeo seriously has homework he needs to do :/
01:51:02 <Sgeo> Might need to boot into ubunto
01:51:18 <oerjan> (Slashes in case you didn't find it at all)
01:51:43 <cpressey> i did, eventually, by browsing.
01:51:51 <cpressey> self-modifying string-rewriting system, is what that is
01:52:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot).
01:53:34 <Sgeo> No thoughts on my thoughts?
01:56:20 <cpressey> given your lack of a ' key, why did you choose ' as a language element?
01:56:44 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:58:50 <Sgeo> As the opposite of ,
01:59:04 <cpressey> my $debug = ($#ARGV >= 0 and $ARGV[0] =~ m/^-d([1-2]?)$/ and shift and ($1 || 1));
01:59:07 <Sgeo> I decided it's not worth letting my terminal keyboard issues interfere with the language
01:59:11 <cpressey> "You had me at 'and shift and'"
02:00:23 <cpressey> Sgeo: I wasn't aware you had a ,
02:01:35 <Sgeo> Actually, that , is unnecessary
02:01:46 <Sgeo> Since the second + is in a substack
02:02:02 <Sgeo> erm, also, it's wrong
02:02:45 <Sgeo> The , makes it such that the + doesn't see the two 1s on the stack
02:03:04 * Sgeo might just scrap , and '
02:04:44 <Sgeo> Maybe I should use combinators for those weirdities
02:04:53 <Sgeo> Although that would screw up the flow
02:05:26 <Sgeo> I should consider what happens if words pushed themselves onto the stack, or some such weirdity
02:05:40 <Sgeo> That might let me include postfix within prefix, by forcing reliance on correct types
02:05:51 <Sgeo> This is not a fleshed out idea yet, though
02:06:40 <cpressey> Sgeo: don't words already push themselves onto the stack?
02:07:02 <Sgeo> Not.. as such, no
02:07:18 * cpressey kind of wants to implement /// in C now
02:08:03 <cpressey> I keep wanting to write something in R
02:10:34 * Gregor dives in his R grant money.
02:14:31 <Sgeo> Would \ as a time travel word be too much
02:14:53 <Sgeo> As a "Hey wait, that last word wasn't meant to fulfil the underflow!"
02:15:27 <cpressey> R --slave --file=your_script.R
02:15:40 <Sgeo> Hmm, what happens then when one word potentially fulfills a bunch of underflows
02:15:42 <cpressey> yes, you have to specify 'slave', or R will spam your output with prompts and such
02:16:29 <cpressey> "The R Language Definition" does not appear to include the word "comment" anywhere in it
02:17:11 <cpressey> # they are the boring usual ones
02:19:11 <cpressey> Sgeo: how would that happen? maybe i'm not following closely enough
02:19:52 <Sgeo> That last one fulfills the second +
02:19:56 <Sgeo> Resulting in a 1
02:20:00 <Sgeo> Which fulfills the first +
02:20:15 <Sgeo> I don't think I elaborated on the substacks enough for it to be comprehensible
02:20:22 <oerjan> cpressey: R is in violation of the universal declaration of human rights!
02:20:49 <Sgeo> Wait, _why_ do I have substacks?
02:21:21 <oerjan> Sgeo: subconsciously introduced?
02:21:38 <Sgeo> I think I thought I needed them to be able to next prefix
02:21:43 <Sgeo> Now, I'm not sure
02:23:18 <Sgeo> For the terminally confused, I was reading + 1 + 1 1 as (+ 1 (+ 1 1))
02:23:49 <Sgeo> When probably (+ (1 + 1)) with an extra 1 makes more sense given what I've explained
02:27:36 <Sgeo> The language started in my mind initially as a stack-based parensless prefix, before I decided to make it mixfix
02:29:46 <cpressey> Sgeo: I guess it depends on whether operations which don't have enough values 'grab' values as soon as they can, or wait for there to be as many as they need
02:30:19 <Sgeo> What's the difference between those?
02:31:50 <cpressey> if you have + 1 * 2 3, is that (1+2)*3, or 1+(2*3) ?
02:32:34 <Sgeo> The latter, I think
02:32:37 <cpressey> if it's "eager" it's the latter, but if operators are "patient" it's the former
02:33:08 <Sgeo> There's a stack underflow at *
02:33:39 <cpressey> I assume both + and * "hang around" waiting for more values
02:33:58 <Sgeo> I may need to change some or all of this
02:34:09 <Sgeo> Because I really, really want to allow postfix within prefix
02:34:33 <Sgeo> Hmm, another interpretation might be + (1 * 2) 3
02:36:47 <Sgeo> Is there anything useful about that interpretation?
02:37:06 <Sgeo> It allows postfix in some circumstances...
02:37:28 <Sgeo> But the postfix can't be used to fulfil the last one that a prefix is waiting for
02:37:46 <Sgeo> Is there any way to next prefix in that interpretation?
02:37:48 <cpressey> postfix within prefix will take guts and sweat and days without food
02:38:01 <Sgeo> As far as I can see, not without something like ,
02:38:30 <Sgeo> I think we should try to avoid operators like that though
02:38:38 <cpressey> + 1 2 * 3 is very ambiguous that way
02:39:03 <Sgeo> How is that at all ambiguous?
02:39:14 <cpressey> you could nondeterministically parse every possible interpretation, and then pick one based on an optimality-theoretic tableau
02:39:15 <Sgeo> + 1 2 becomes 3, then 3 * 3
02:39:38 <cpressey> if you want postfix within prefix, as you said
02:40:36 <Gregor> Is 'ea' in creative a diaeresis? Sure it is, right?
02:40:40 <Gregor> Of course it is, I'm being silly.
02:44:42 <cpressey> it might even be a triaeresis or quadraeresis
02:44:59 <cpressey> when i say it slowly it sounds like there are a whole lot of different vowel sounds in there
02:45:46 <Gregor> There should be three, but it's a diaeresis since two form a diphthong.
02:46:17 <cpressey> i may just be imagining the eh
02:46:34 <Gregor> You're either imagining it or the 'ah', depending on your accent :P
02:48:21 <Gregor> I should just start using þorn ... I wonder if I could get enough people to stop using T-H þat þe momentum would actually change language. Probably not, technology would kill it.
02:48:34 <Sgeo> I guess for postfix in prefix, I'd need an operator
02:50:01 <Gregor> cpressey: Þat's not a capital þorn.
02:50:34 <Gregor> cpressey: Oh, unless you're advocating for two different letters for þe voiced and unvoiced form.
02:50:58 <Gregor> Þat's not how it worked in English by þe time þorn died. Eiþer way, you want ð, not þat.
02:51:27 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to TheAnnoyer.
02:54:01 <Gregor> Hm, maybe I could get myself to use boþ þorn and eþ ...
02:54:22 <Gregor> I þink ðat would be too tricky for Random Idiot X...
02:55:40 <cpressey> so this is where the taxpayers' R grant money is going, eh.
02:56:23 <oerjan> it concerns Random Idiots, and is therefore _clearly_ statistical
03:15:43 -!- TheAnnoyer has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:27:38 <cpressey> Apparently the Student's t-distribution and t-test were developed for the Guinness brewery (the guy wrote under the pen name "Student")
03:29:13 <oerjan> yeah the inventor of that cannot have been quite sober
03:33:01 -!- calamari has joined.
03:33:12 <Sgeo> It's a calamari!
03:33:19 * Sgeo is learning to survive without a ' key
03:35:20 <Sgeo> Because I broke mine after trying to put it back after cleaning out gunk in the hopes that it would work better
03:36:27 <calamari> if I unplug my keyboard and plug it back in, the layout changes to international and I can no longer type ' or "
03:37:08 <calamari> so then I have to go change the layout.. really annoying, but I suppose I could fix it if I really wanted so, since kde is open source
03:55:57 <HackEgo> 10|<oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. 14|<reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs? 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for? 81|<apollo>
03:59:49 <Sgeo> I need substacks for decent nesting of prefix
04:10:20 <HackEgo> 132|<dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. 139|<ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future
04:10:55 * Sgeo fails to be mystified
04:11:01 <HackEgo> 38|<Dylan> speaking of pants <Dylan> harry potter movie
04:11:07 <HackEgo> 138|<ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.?
04:13:05 <HackEgo> 140|<fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
04:13:32 <oerjan> ...i guess that last one was pretty mystifying
04:13:51 <Sgeo> We should grep the esologs
04:14:00 <Gregor> May not have come from #esoteric.
04:14:34 <Sgeo> True, but ais523 is not a Siner
04:14:35 <oerjan> impossible. all other channels are illusions!
04:15:28 <Sgeo> Surely the quote's been repeated in channel before, but I can't find it in logs
04:15:44 <Sgeo> Also, the quote itself is pretty mystifying
04:17:38 <oerjan> `addquote <Gregor> It's impossible to add fake quotes.
04:17:40 <HackEgo> 224|<Gregor> It's impossible to add fake quotes.
04:29:31 <Gregor> "Hey, I didn't add that!" "Sure you did, you said right there it's impossible to add fake quotes."
04:30:37 <oerjan> and who should know better than the bot's creator
04:36:20 <Sgeo> How important is sensible prefix-in-prefix?
04:38:11 <Sgeo> Ugh, I _still_ want postfix-in-prefix
04:38:33 <Sgeo> I can use types
04:38:36 <Sgeo> Let's say I have someword
04:38:42 <Sgeo> It accepts only a boolean
04:39:01 <Sgeo> someword 'A' capital?
04:39:13 <Sgeo> The 'A' does not satisfy someword's requirement
04:39:18 <Sgeo> But the capital? does
04:40:36 <Sgeo> Maybe an >unsat that makes whatever's on the stack into a special class of types that doesn't satisfy for these purposes
04:40:58 <Sgeo> How does satisfiability work with postfix, though?
04:49:21 <cpressey> make @ take a value and 'decorate' it to be unprefixsyntaxusablein
04:50:16 <cpressey> wants Sgeo @prefix @postfix in
04:50:51 <cpressey> @ is ugly, just off the top of my head. pick something prettier
04:51:08 <pikhq> Curious. I have been deemed "attractive".
04:51:42 <oerjan> gravitationally speaking, that just means fat
04:51:45 <coppro> pikhq: I have been deemed 'hot' before, which is odd
04:52:14 <pikhq> coppro: I'm merely finding it curious that a change in hair style produces such a result.
04:52:43 <Sgeo> I've been called 'hot', then almost immediately found out that that wasn't serious
04:53:09 <coppro> Sgeo: nope, was serious
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06:08:00 <pikhq> calamari: Rather short hair, instead of having the headbanger look going.
06:09:57 <pikhq> Too short to part.
06:14:34 <Sgeo> I got short hair recently, and my step-mother said it looked hideous
06:14:39 <Sgeo> Then again, it was soldier-short
06:14:46 <Sgeo> Also, I don't trust my step-mother
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06:16:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: Mine is, in fact, soldier-short.
06:16:32 <pikhq> I disbelieve in undramatic changes in appearance.
06:16:58 <Sgeo> I'm considering just taking advice from a female friend of mine who said she'd like to help
06:18:08 <pikhq> To solider-short from long-enough-to-hypothetically-braid.
06:18:22 <pikhq> About as dramatic as it gets with hair, really.
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06:51:21 <Vorpal> <olsner> hmm, but "no why: just joy" would be "inget varför: bara glädje" <--- really?
06:52:07 <Vorpal> <alise> this allows totally free word order <-- what about for exp(double, double) ? XD
06:55:14 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Before I realized what it was for, I chipped it further, thinking that it wouldn't go on because its deformity blocked it <-- idiot
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08:52:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: Heh, the university shell servers keep getting more and more ridiculous; this one lists 24 cores in /proc/cpuinfo. (Though I think it's just a 2-cpu 6-core Xeon, with the 12→24 duplication because of HyperThreading.)
08:53:42 <fizzie> (Also seems to have an even hundred gigabytes of memory.)
08:55:16 <fizzie> (Or 96.5, apparently; I'm not quite sure where the .5 comes from.)
08:58:57 <olsner> oh, I would like me one of those
09:01:20 <fizzie> And that box is pretty much dedicated to run a few hundred (or maybe a thousand) irssi/alpine/mutt/etc. screens, nothing more.
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09:34:08 <olsner> dedicated to run 24 of your own gcc processes, you mean?
09:34:28 <olsner> or whatever cpu-intensive project you're up to :)
09:37:32 <fizzie> I think they have some sort of automation to catch people who do long-running CPU-intensive tasks.
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14:49:47 <cpressey_> "Tricky," he said. "But can you do it?" cried Loonquawl.
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15:15:15 <oklofok> oerjan: i need your peer reviewing skills
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16:07:28 <cpressey_> pshaw. if oerjan said it you'd lol
16:12:23 <Gregor> cpressey_: That's because we WURRRRRRRRVE the oerj (pronounced "werj")
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16:34:05 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: he who is slowly becoming my nemesis it seems
16:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn, you can't make that dound appropriately dramatic.
16:34:58 <cpressey_> doesn't like where i live, underwhelmed by the languages i design, and now hissing at my oerjan-level punning just 'cos it'd not coming from oerjan himself
16:35:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, when it comes round to hating things, my money's on alise.
16:36:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I know you're logreading this, so please don't take offence.
16:37:59 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_: well, I always thought you and Gregor would end up at odds with each other.
16:38:19 <Phantom_Hoover> You both occupy the same quantum state in my head, and it's not big enough for the both of you.
16:40:38 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: well, he's only my nemesis so far. i think it would take an alise or a zzo38 to be my *arch*-nemesis. :D
16:42:22 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: you could be Q. Not the Star Trek one, the James Bond one. 'coz, you know, you have The Deevice. and that Deity Ray thing
16:42:41 <cpressey_> although Deevice looks kind of cool too
16:43:14 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: I am not opposed to Lisp64 although I don't know if I'm in a state to help it
16:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_: well, you just need to be able to make crazy engineering suggestions.
16:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> FUN FACT: I have watched neither the classic James Bond films nor TNG,
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17:17:48 <alise> Vorpal: how many wakeups/sec do you get on ubuntu?
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17:23:45 <alise> 20:13:32 <oerjan> ...i guess that last one was pretty mystifying
17:25:26 <alise> 20:52:43 <Sgeo> I've been called 'hot', then almost immediately found out that that wasn't serious
17:25:32 <alise> i'm considered a rather cute female.
17:25:49 <alise> maybe if i cut my hair i can one day fulfil my dream of being just like pikhq
17:26:11 <alise> 22:52:07 <Vorpal> <alise> this allows totally free word order <-- what about for exp(double, double) ? XD
17:26:15 <alise> source order takes precedence, as i said
17:26:38 <alise> 22:55:14 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Before I realized what it was for, I chipped it further, thinking that it wouldn't go on because its deformity blocked it <-- idiot
17:26:46 <alise> it is often a reasonable course of action.
17:27:26 <oklofok> i'm not going to comment on that, because i don't know what it's about, so it would be stupid
17:27:37 <oklofok> hello alise, what's a hello
17:28:30 <alise> a hello is a murder
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17:35:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Closer to CL than Scheme, but not CL for obvious reasons?
17:38:49 <Phantom_Hoover> But CL is *way* too huge and carries far too much baggage from lesser OSes to use for this.
17:39:14 <alise> Let's just make the perfect Lisp. k.
17:39:40 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover said I can make crazy engineering suggestions so I shall promote using Pixley
17:40:28 <cpressey_> oh wow, irssi in a cygwin bastardized dos window does not handle resizing and scrolling well
17:41:37 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: to be slightly more serious, I would want a pure and reasonably small core, howevermuch wise that may or may not be
17:41:53 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise: yes, so what's in that perfect Lisp? ;; cool things
17:42:34 <cpressey_> as the only way to violate the pure
17:42:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the behaviour of the compiler changes depending on the namespace.
17:42:48 <alise> cpressey_: mayyybe
17:44:48 <cpressey_> oh, ^L redraws. yes. good. sanity again
17:45:58 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: how does that fit with the current architecture?
17:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> *Some* code will need to me impure, like device drivers etc.
17:47:48 <alise> I'm not getting all caught up about purity here. That's for alise OS.
17:47:58 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: I read a paper once on "hardware access monads" and their use in an academic Haskell OS
17:48:51 <cpressey_> also, only expressing my opinion, which may or may not reflect those of Lisp864 and its sponsors.
17:49:13 <Gregor> Void where prohibited.
17:49:16 <cpressey_> actually, as long as i've got a way to statically analyze the code and tell me what's pure and what might not be, i'm good
17:52:00 <alise> Lisp86 is my vehicle to use Phantom_Hoover to create something like my perfect world-dominating vision in finite time!
17:52:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: so anyway, I think we can restrict the actual language primitives to a tiny set of direct memory access ones.
17:52:20 <alise> That's sort of like kind of exactly Forth.
17:54:23 <cpressey_> lambda, cons, car, cdr, at least, i assume?
17:54:46 <alise> I know! Leave all the design to me, Phantom_Hoover; you can code the x86-75
17:54:53 <alise> I know! Leave all the design to me, Phantom_Hoover; you can code the pages upon pages of x86-64 assembly.
17:54:56 <cpressey_> that's as "direct" as memory access classically gets in lispies, though i can see wanting to go lower
17:55:10 <alise> cpressey_: there will be some sort of service offering memory poking for drivers.
17:55:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: I thought assembly was going to be kept to a completely bare minimum.
17:55:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Except for all the runtime, the GC, the various OS facilities now part of the runtime...
17:56:01 <alise> (Not many facilities, admittedly.)
17:56:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: pages on pages of assembly are not something I am even vaguely good at.
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17:58:16 <alise> cpressey_ is good at assembly!
17:58:22 <alise> We can put Vorpal in an agony booth!
17:58:54 <cpressey_> cpressey_ is okay at assembly. hardly the best one here, i'm sure.
17:59:14 <cpressey_> also: i have never done anything remotely >286ish.
17:59:17 <alise> All the others are either in asylums or not stupid enough.
17:59:24 <alise> You will be assimilated.
17:59:37 <alise> Resistance is -- where did you go...?
18:00:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You're the kidnapper in this crime ring!
18:00:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Fiine.
18:00:47 <alise> Now go kidnap cpressey.
18:00:57 <alise> But ... keep him away from a computer.
18:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_, Vorpal, get plane tickets straight to Edinburgh. You'll only need one way. Failure to comply will be met with use of the Device.
18:02:26 * cpressey_ cleverly swaps places with Gregor somehow
18:03:04 <alise> It's okay, we can just poke Gregor with a rusty stick.
18:03:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Kidnap Gregor -- who is actually cpressey.
18:03:19 <Gregor> alise has discovered the nature of THE DEVICE
18:03:20 <alise> DO NOT poke "Gregor" (cpressey) with a rusty stick;
18:03:28 <alise> DO poke "cpressey" (Gregor) with a rusty stick.
18:03:37 <alise> The device is the RUSTIEST STICK.
18:03:43 <alise> Never before has bark been so rusty.
18:04:59 <alise> Gregor, cpressey_, into the plain.
18:05:04 <alise> Now they cannot resist.
18:06:21 <cpressey_> oh man, this is gonna be the best os EVER!
18:07:08 <alise> oh i said plain by mistake
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18:08:15 <Phantom_Hoover> So now that I have kidnapped some developy people can I help design?
18:08:52 <cpressey_> I would actually be willing to try coding some *small corner* of the OS if it is *well defined*. Which in practice means no.
18:09:35 <cpressey_> or it means you actually have to design shit instead of just playing around with cool ideas
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18:16:44 <alise> cpressey_: grumpy grumpy
18:17:35 <cpressey_> you would be too if you were just kidnapped! by use of the Device, no less
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18:20:44 * cpressey_ rewrites his traversal function a *third* time
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18:41:20 <alise> [[SAN FRANCISCO — In describing the motivation behind Intel's recent purchase of McAfee for a packed-out audience at the Intel Developer Forum, Intel's Paul Otellini framed it as an effort to move the way the company approaches security "from a known-bad model to a known-good model." Otellini went on to briefly describe the shift in a way that sounded innocuous enough--current A/V efforts focus on building up a library of known threats against which they
18:41:20 <alise> protect a user, but Intel would love to move to a world where only code from known and trusted parties runs on x86 systems. It sounds sensible enough, so what could be objectionable about that?]]
18:41:26 <alise> aren't they AWESOME!
18:41:29 <alise> best processors ever
18:41:44 <alise> i love how they eat up so much power and get so hot for the same performance, and I'm buying one now
18:43:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Tachyons are solutions to the SR equations that have imaginary mass, although I suppose they could have reverse causality.
18:43:50 <alise> they are usually assumed to
18:44:07 <alise> i mean, they move faster than light, which to Joe McLayman...
18:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is sqrt(1-v^2/c^2), so for velocities over c, the time dilation is imaginary.
18:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Having negative time dilation would seem to be impossible, actually.
18:47:22 <alise> "Pros: This CPU should be my last in this lifetime [I am 80 and expect this will be more than sufficient to get me into my 90's!] The amazing factor to me [apart from the speed] is how cool it runs on the stock Intel heatsink and fan; I have the fan set on low!"
18:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Although because of the FtL-implies-time-travel thing, you could probably still use them to violate causality.
18:47:32 <alise> -- Newegg review of Core i7-980X Extreme Edition
18:47:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not tachyons
18:47:52 <alise> According to the contemporary and widely accepted understanding of the concept of a particle, tachyon particles are too unstable to be treated as existent.[4] By that theory, faster than light information transmission and causality violation with tachyons are impossible.
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18:48:05 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, assuming no interaction with matter.
18:49:21 <alise> "Because the total energy must be real" PAH, UNNECESSARY
18:52:37 <pikhq> Firstpersondonewithtest VICTORY
18:54:36 <Vorpal> alise, Phantom_Hoover: whatever that highlight was about: tl;dr, and bbl for a few hours again
18:54:59 <alise> Vorpal: how many wakeups/sec do you get
19:02:12 <Vorpal> alise, .30, .31 or stock lucid? All on lucid. Varies widely between those
19:02:35 <alise> are the custom ones much better?
19:02:47 <Vorpal> alise, only because of less buggy with my hardware :P
19:03:05 <Vorpal> alise, .27 (stock) on *jaunty* I got less than 10. Even with .27 on lucid I get more. Like 15 per seconds.
19:03:13 <Vorpal> With stock above 50 / sec all the time
19:03:32 <Vorpal> .31 around 10-30, varies quite widely
19:03:37 <alise> how many should a non-insane person aim for?
19:03:47 <Vorpal> .30 around the same as .27 with lucid (15 or so)
19:04:19 <Vorpal> alise, well... hard to say. With lucid I don't think you can get to the levels of jaunty. Probably user space changes
19:04:33 <Vorpal> with stock: depends on if you have an intel core 2 duo
19:05:35 <Vorpal> alise, well depending on stepping you might hit the same bug I do. Which is that load balacing ticks sky rocket
19:05:45 <Vorpal> basically due to a race condition as far as I understand the bug
19:05:57 <Vorpal> where one core tries to sleep but wakes the other or something like that
19:06:27 <Vorpal> alise, which is why you get no lower than 50 / sec when idle. And average 100-140 / sec
19:07:30 <Vorpal> alise, .31 doesn't have that bug (karmic had .31 iirc?) but it is still somewhat worse than .27 of jaunty. Probably a combination of user space and other kernel stuff
19:07:39 <Vorpal> but at least not nearly as bad for battery time
19:08:19 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, something else that will save power is turning off bluetooth if not used. Same goes for wlan. With turning off I mean rfkill or whatever you need to make it stop using it's antenna and so on
19:09:23 <alise> I could just click "Turn Off Bluetooth".
19:09:48 <pikhq> Hey, HDCP is finally actually cracked now.
19:09:49 <Vorpal> alise, well yeah hopefully yes. But I heard about some laptops where that isn't enough. On my thinkpad the GUI ways work
19:09:55 <pikhq> Surprised it took this long.
19:10:21 <pikhq> A simple matter of watching the HDMI bus on 40 devices and solving a system of equations.
19:10:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, don't they realise that as long as they put the keys for encryption in *user accessible* hardware any DRM is futile in the long run?
19:10:52 <alise> I am attempting to disable Wi-Fi...
19:10:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, they don't.
19:10:54 <Vorpal> I mean, you don't have physical security, just attach a logic probe
19:11:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: And they also really, really suck at doing encryption anyways.
19:11:30 <Vorpal> unless you do it all in one IC... In which it can still be done, just significantly trickier than if you can tab between two ICs
19:11:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: HDMI had "encryption" with a *linear function*.
19:11:44 <pikhq> *Linear. Fucking. Function.*
19:12:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is only safe assuming a non-repeating key
19:12:06 <pikhq> Find 40 coefficients and all possible keys are yours.
19:12:08 <Vorpal> which is obviously not the case here
19:12:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, wait, this sounds worse than WEP?
19:12:28 <pikhq> Why yes, yes it is.
19:12:44 <Vorpal> alise, right click the network manager thingy
19:12:53 <Vorpal> the icon in the menu bar I mean
19:12:55 <alise> Vorpal: I mean in hardware.
19:13:10 <Vorpal> alise, ah well, for me doing it from there disables it the hw too
19:13:35 <Vorpal> alise, of course, it might not
19:13:53 <Vorpal> in which case you want /sys/something/something/rfkill/rfkill1/something
19:13:59 <Vorpal> well replace the 1 there
19:14:04 <Vorpal> with the relevant number
19:14:44 <Vorpal> alise, in worst case rmmod of the module ought to disable the wlan
19:15:16 <Vorpal> alise, if you don't know the name work backwards from mac*802 (whatever the numbers are)
19:15:28 <Vorpal> which your wlan module will depend on directly or indirectly
19:15:40 <Vorpal> alise, hm. Physical rfkill switch would I assume
19:15:54 <alise> i mean for wakeups
19:16:20 <Vorpal> alise, is hdaps running? (the daemon that uses the accelerometer to unload hd head)?
19:16:45 <Vorpal> alise, it causes lots of wakeups, and if you have it on a stable table you could probably turn it off.
19:16:55 <Vorpal> alise, err hdapsd I think
19:17:04 <alise> it's on a ... stable-ish table.
19:17:35 <Vorpal> alise, another thing that helps for me is unloading tg3 (ethernet module). Because networkmanager keeps polling it
19:17:54 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ pgrep hdapsd
19:17:57 <Vorpal> alise, well yes. I switch
19:18:33 <alise> 646 ? 00:00:00 bluetooth
19:18:33 <alise> 659 ? 00:00:00 bluetoothd
19:18:37 <Vorpal> alise, other than that, powertop gives you suggestions. Checking those might be worth the job
19:19:02 <alise> i'm always plugged in so this is just or my amusement
19:19:07 <alise> and in case i ever take it off power
19:19:17 <fizzie> HDCP's actual encryption is with a perfectly sane stream cipher, not a "linear function". They had a linear key exchange thing, which means you could figure out the master key from 40 device keys, and therefore circumvent the key revocation mechanism, which is I guess what has now been done.
19:19:34 <Vorpal> alise, I thought you previously wanted long battery life because you were mobile a lot?
19:20:10 <pikhq> fizzie: Ah, right, it was just the key setup that was retarded.
19:20:20 <Vorpal> alise, another thing that helps for reducing wakeups is usually suspend 2 ram ;P
19:20:30 <Vorpal> suspend 2 disk helps even more with power usage
19:21:02 <pikhq> Still, what sort of *moron* does linear key exchange?
19:21:20 <pikhq> Apparently the sort that tech companies hire for DRM.
19:21:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, I think I have an answer.
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19:22:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, the techies that design this hate DRM. But their managers want it. The managers are stupid and don't know enough about this stuff. Thus they can just insert poor DRM
19:22:31 <Vorpal> we should be happy that they aren't competent
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19:24:33 <alise> Vorpal: powertop shows one report then freezes my syste,m
19:24:37 <alise> not even reisub recoverable
19:24:54 <Vorpal> alise, I have it running as root on my thinkpad atm
19:25:11 <Vorpal> show72 / sec. But that is due to firefox running
19:25:15 <fizzie> I seem to recall I had one box too where powertop managed to hang things up badly. Not sure which one it was.
19:25:25 <Vorpal> hm empty firefox window gives you 40 wakeups / sec?
19:25:50 <alise> 08:36:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I know you're logreading this, so please don't take offence.
19:25:50 <alise> i just laughed at the idea of cpressey rabidly hating me :)
19:25:59 <Vorpal> killing of firefox: around 40 wakeups / s
19:26:09 <Vorpal> but network is not completely idle
19:26:19 <Vorpal> sshfs is mounted so some keepalive sent I assume
19:27:36 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, very strange that powertop issue. Was it possible to ssh in from another host? Did sysrq work?
19:28:18 <alise> i said reisub didn't work, and you really think i'm going to try the former?
19:29:00 <alise> "Oh, my machine has frozen. Thankfully, I have an ssh server running on my personal box, so I will just boot up the slow computer next to me and try to connect. Maybe after that, I will hard-reboot! But only after writing a journal article and three poems about it."
19:33:54 <Vorpal> <alise> i said reisub didn't work, and you really think i'm going to try the former? <-- um. I have done that
19:34:08 <fizzie> I always try the SSH thing, too, usually from the phone.
19:34:12 <Vorpal> and yes, in general I do have one running at home
19:34:33 <alise> fizzie: Even if the cause is /obvious/?
19:34:38 <Vorpal> don't run it on laptop at university.
19:34:39 <alise> Why? To salvage my... Chrome window?
19:35:18 <Vorpal> And even if I forgot it running it would still be secure (key auth only, no pw) and only listens to a specific ip on eth0 and iptables filter all IPs but my desktop
19:35:38 <Vorpal> alise, if it works, it would help tell what crashed
19:35:40 <fizzie> alise: Even if; doing the hard powercycling feels somehow dirty, I want to exhaust all possible remedies.
19:35:43 <Vorpal> like, maybe only X locked up
19:35:58 <alise> powertop is broken
19:36:04 <alise> i very much doubt it just crashed X
19:36:10 <alise> solution: don't run powertop
19:36:18 <Vorpal> alise, not broken for me
19:36:21 <alise> i have no reason to boot up the slow machine and ssh in (and go back in time and start sshd)
19:36:23 <alise> Vorpal: broken for me.
19:36:25 <Vorpal> alise, must be your hardware it doesn't like
19:37:55 <Vorpal> alise, hm I can think of a few ways that powertop could cause issues: 1) ACPI by reading C-state/P-state. 2) reading timer list. A way to test for this is to click battery icon in gnome, select first alternative. Then in the window that pops up select "processor" in the list on the side
19:38:05 <Vorpal> that checks the timer list that powertop uses for the main display
19:38:16 <Vorpal> alise, but it doesn'd do the c-state/p-state stuff
19:38:30 <Vorpal> alise, so if that doesn't crash you have limited possible causes
19:39:06 <alise> gnome power display thing works, so i guess it's not 2
19:39:18 <alise> (I knew this already)
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19:54:01 <Vorpal> alise, cpufreq-info works?
19:54:14 <Vorpal> not sure how to read C-states and P-states though
19:54:19 <Vorpal> for cpufreq-info run it as root
19:54:25 <Vorpal> otherwise it will not be quite the same
19:55:24 <Vorpal> $ sudo cpufreq-info | grep -i 'current CPU'
19:55:24 <Vorpal> current CPU frequency is 800 MHz (asserted by call to hardware).
19:55:27 <Vorpal> $ cpufreq-info | grep -i 'current CPU'
19:55:27 <Vorpal> current CPU frequency is 800 MHz.
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20:03:51 <Vorpal> hm TFTs are not really digital are they? How does it change intensity? Analog value sent to something or digital?
20:04:01 <Vorpal> I mean at the actual liquid crystal level or whatever
20:12:50 <Gregor> Apparently I use aptosid now ...
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20:17:44 <fizzie> How much light passes through one pixel depends, AFAIK, on applied voltage, so in that sense you could say it's an analog device.
20:17:54 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: is Lisp86 allergic to C? I mean, the non-Lispy parts will be ugly anyway, right?
20:20:37 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Apparently I use aptosid now ... <-- aptosid?
20:20:53 <Gregor> Vorpal: sidux changed its name. In an overly dramatic way.
20:21:31 <cpressey_> I AM COLENOL APTOSID OF THE BLURGUX EMPIRE. SUBMIT.
20:21:46 <Gregor> Wow, the nick "Gregor" was still free on OFTC, now I have it on both Freenode AND OFTC ... sweet :P
20:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_, I'm not really sure why using C is verboten, although ideally the OS won't actually have enough ultra-low-level code to *need* C.
20:27:16 <Gregor> "ultra-low-level" doesn't imply C ... well, it didn't before ~1977 anyway :P
20:35:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, yes, but the whole point is that non-ultra-low code is in Lisp.
20:39:49 <Gregor> I haven't actually been following this, but why do we like Lisp?
20:40:53 <Gregor> Lisp has the same fault as Forth: For all the beauty of the language design, programmers are human beings. People in #esoteric are not.
20:42:16 <cpressey_> By that logic, Formula One race cars are faulty.
20:42:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor is a heretic against the holy name of Lisp! KILL HIM!!
20:42:37 <Gregor> cpressey_: They are if you're going to give them to Random American X.
20:43:09 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: are we going to give this OS to Random American X?
20:43:26 <Gregor> OK, so it's a /research/ OS. In that case, enjoy :P
20:43:42 <cpressey_> By that logic, Formula One cars are research vehicles.
20:43:50 <cpressey_> Which is true, in a sense, I suppose.
20:44:13 <Gregor> cpressey_: No, by that logic, both are special-purpose, and the special purpose I have chosen to imagine your OS is assigned to is research.
20:46:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, well, the fundamental Lispiness won't be exposed to Joe Bloggs.
20:46:49 <Gregor> OK, then enjoy; I sort of figured this was supposed to be "everything's Lisp from the ground up", since that's exactly what a Lisper would do X-P
20:47:24 <Gregor> By "from the ground up" I mean "to the shell and all apps"
20:47:28 <cpressey_> The discussion about using Lisp Hardware took place yesterday IIRC and came to the conclusion that it's not feasible.
20:51:45 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: The reason I ask about GC is that it's clearly not *ultra* low level but it's also somewhat tricky to do in Lisp (you need to bootstrap it. in practice you would have an inital version written in something else.)
20:52:00 <cpressey_> And, like, do it in assembly? Maybe but ugh.
20:53:30 <cpressey_> Gregor: I think the most reasonable assumption about nigh all projects discussed in this channel is that they are for entertainment rather than production or research. That's one reason I chose the analogy I did with the race car. But maybe that's just me.
20:54:04 <Gregor> cpressey_: Yeah, I'm just being a jerk :P
20:54:13 <Gregor> cpressey_: Since alise was actually being compliant, I had to be the jerk.
20:56:21 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_, yeah this is why we're kidnapping you, Gregor and Vorpal to actually code it for us.
20:56:35 <Gregor> Why meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
20:57:56 <Gregor> Your Device doesn't scare me!
20:59:56 <Gregor> You're not pointing it at me, but suuuuuuure it is.
21:04:19 <Gregor> No, I actually am in Indiana :P
21:04:45 <Gregor> I probably can't name all fifty :P
21:05:30 -!- Flonk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:05:57 <Gregor> There's a helicopter here with my name on it.
21:06:35 -!- augur has joined.
21:06:49 <Gregor> Actually, upon further inspection, it's an autogyro.
21:08:57 <Gregor> Actually, I'm not sure what this is, but I think it's something one gets ON, not IN.
21:09:23 <alise> i can name a lot of us states but not nearly all
21:09:52 <Gregor> alise: Can you name all the states of the UK?!
21:10:15 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know how to "inspect" a thing.
21:10:30 <alise> Gregor: I can't name all counties of England.
21:10:57 <Gregor> Poor Isle of Man and Gibraltar!
21:11:04 <Gregor> Actually I have no idea what their statuses are :P
21:11:17 <alise> cpressey_: Those are not states :P
21:11:18 * cpressey_ wants to hold an esoconference in Kergeulen
21:11:41 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:11:50 <alise> "There are no indigenous inhabitants, but France maintains a permanent presence of 50 to 100 scientists, engineers and researchers."
21:12:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: now they're... members of the commonwealth, apart from india.
21:12:20 <Gregor> alise: Surely there must be a plumber or two :P
21:12:28 <alise> Gregor: NO PLUMBERS
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21:14:04 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31417429&l=cd8ecd0e3f&id=1055580469
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21:14:19 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: All's I know is that we still have a portrait of the Queen in every hockey rink.
21:15:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I thought there was a spiffy little rotate button in Preview?
21:15:39 <Vorpal> alise, I realised that when you remove the ram/disk distinction you might as well take the next natural step
21:15:40 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but it didn't work.
21:15:53 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Apparently Facebook ignores the EXIF rotate tag X_X
21:16:01 <cpressey_> Vorpal: remove the 0/1 distinction?
21:16:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, closer!
21:16:36 <Vorpal> alise, remove the "host" distinction. A cluster would be little more than an extreme NUMA system.
21:16:48 <Vorpal> sure, you still want to limit this, you don't trust all hosts
21:16:57 <alise> Vorpal: already been done
21:17:06 <alise> ram is cache of disk is cache of global networked magic
21:17:15 <alise> Vorpal: uhh no specific links
21:17:23 <Vorpal> alise, well, any name of project then?
21:17:23 <alise> Vorpal: C Guy Yarvin has it in his ultra-abstract Urbit system
21:17:31 <alise> iirc Stanislav of Loper OS is toying with similar ideas
21:17:42 <alise> afaik, nobody's been crazy enough to actually do it /yet/
21:17:44 <alise> i am probably wrong though
21:17:51 <cpressey_> i don't think it's ever been done *successfully*, but so many people are trying that it's kind of boring imo
21:17:51 <Vorpal> alise, Inferno still had the mem/fs distinction right?
21:17:59 <alise> it's basically plan 9 in a vm
21:18:00 <alise> Vorpal: the problem is zooko's triangle
21:18:03 <Vorpal> alise, of course Inferno was right in other bits, like the JITing
21:18:10 <alise> you have to identify one object in a sea of seven hundred billion trillion
21:18:16 <alise> this has to be decentralised
21:18:25 <Vorpal> alise, sure, you need some efficient algorithms for it
21:18:29 <alise> but you also want human-meaningful; i.e. memorable
21:18:39 <alise> rather than a huge meaningless string of IPs and rubbish
21:18:43 <Vorpal> alise, and security, hm, ethernet cluster? Could be completely trusted
21:18:45 <alise> since objects can be so much more than data calculations
21:18:49 <Vorpal> alise, why run IP over it
21:18:56 <alise> Vorpal: nonono, you use internet here; anyway, it was just an example
21:19:00 <alise> an object can be an application
21:19:02 <alise> now if someone tells you
21:19:08 <Vorpal> alise, not sure latency and bw is acceptable over internet
21:19:14 <alise> "Go to ieuf98es7wyf89w3y598yh985yf983q2y5c982q3hjc9832qur98qhy98rq3h498fhc9q83h5c98h435c, it's the coolest mumble jumble application ever to fumble."
21:19:17 <Vorpal> of course depends on how you use it
21:19:23 <alise> that's not very nice
21:19:26 <alise> so you run into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko's_triangle
21:19:37 <alise> and you basically have to cheat somehow
21:19:40 <alise> which is the hard part
21:19:45 <Vorpal> alise, I was thinking cluster-scale rather than global-scale
21:19:48 <alise> cpressey_: it's cool because it's part of the wider design
21:19:48 <Phantom_Hoover> My god, there was a man with "Zooko" as his last name.
21:19:52 <Vorpal> alise, at which this is not really an issue
21:19:53 <alise> Vorpal: global scale is cooler --
21:20:04 <alise> Vorpal: you get to encrypt all your own stuff by default
21:20:07 <alise> so that anyone can download your stuff
21:20:09 <Vorpal> alise, of course, but learning to crawl before flying and so on
21:20:09 <alise> it's just that they can't decrypt it
21:20:18 <alise> this also allows source-independent networking
21:20:22 <alise> networking without a sender header
21:21:02 <alise> this is cool and even one of the designers of TCP/IP says it's the right way :P
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21:22:46 <Vorpal> alise, tricky as hell though
21:23:09 <Vorpal> alise, what happens in the face of offline usage here though
21:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I had some question I really wanted to ask but I've forgotten it.
21:23:41 <Vorpal> alise, like, say, I'm somewhere with no connection whatsoever, except satellite phone
21:23:48 <Vorpal> alise, say, polar expedition
21:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I think it may have had something to do with Gregor's comments.
21:28:57 <alise> Vorpal: that's why disk caches the interwebnets
21:29:03 <alise> or rather, the bits you access
21:29:18 <alise> this is a bit more tricky than caching disk in ram since the net isn't so much of a permanent storage mechanism :)
21:29:25 <alise> and it's hard to tell what to cache, which would be a slower process
21:29:36 <alise> definitely something for the pipe-dream-from-the-position-of-an-already-pipish-dream OS
21:29:40 <alise> not the pipe-dream OS
21:32:20 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31417429&l=cd8ecd0e3f&id=1055580469 Fix't :P
21:33:49 <Vorpal> <alise> this is a bit more tricky than caching disk in ram since the net isn't so much of a permanent storage mechanism :) <-- indeed
21:34:22 <Vorpal> alise, I would suggest aiming for local, then cluster level. Before even attempting global scale
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21:34:48 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, what do you think of the JIT model of inferno?
21:34:57 <Vorpal> alise, is it something like that you aim for?
21:35:08 <Vorpal> (it seems like a sane way to do it)
21:37:07 <alise> Vorpal: probably something like that.
21:39:00 <alise> I want to make a tablety touchscreeny computer now.
21:39:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: latter
21:39:08 <alise> Gregor made no OS comments.
21:39:22 <alise> <alise> I want to make a tablety touchscreeny computer now. ;; primarily for the OS, that is.
21:42:52 <Gregor> I want to see a nonsucky OS for such a device :P
21:43:04 <Gregor> Or really, I want to see a nonsucky interface.
21:43:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:43:08 <Gregor> The OS is kind of uninteresting.
21:44:02 <alise> Gregor: Well, yeah, that's what I mean.
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21:44:50 <alise> Gregor: It'd probably be Linux-based, just for the geek-out factor. And, uh, the massive amount of applications factor.
21:44:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:45:09 <alise> (Tweaking Chromium excessively rated as far easier than writing a new browser from scratch)
21:45:19 <alise> Gregor: With water in it?
21:45:21 <Gregor> I don't know if you're going to get the massive amount of applications factor if the interface is new and unique
21:46:31 <alise> Gregor: Well, they'd look remarkably like an ugly Linux application stuffed into fullscreen with a tiny bit of UI around it.
21:46:50 <alise> But if they're like, say, an editor, where you have a toolbar and shit and then just a big expanse of text that is fine being stretched, it'd be fine.
21:46:56 <alise> Or even an IRC client.
21:47:17 <alise> Form factor is important. Requires thinking.
21:47:21 <cpressey_> olsner: thanks for your question! i've filed it in the queue.
21:47:32 <alise> Gregor: I'm not sure how much X11 will like an overlayed touchscreen keyboard, but there's only one way to find out!
21:48:00 <Gregor> alise: Idonno, Matchbox seems to have managed it, though that's now very olde.
21:48:02 <alise> (It'll have Bluetooth and maybe some way to use USB so don't whine about not being able to use a real keyboard kthx.)
21:48:16 <alise> USB would be via an adapter though, otherwise it'd be way too thick.
21:48:27 <alise> Gregor: Hee, Openmoko.
21:48:31 <Gregor> Just have an OTG port.
21:48:33 <alise> So wonderfully shit.
21:48:36 <olsner> I'm going to try something weird now: going to bed on the right side of midnight
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21:48:51 <Gregor> I'm not saying matchbox is a good interface (Openmoko used matchbox?), I'm saying it had on-screen keyboards :P
21:49:03 <alise> Openmoko used Matchbox on the Neo 1973.
21:49:25 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/1112FIC326x550.jpg
21:49:30 <alise> Dig that brushed metal UI.
21:49:39 <alise> (Note: By "dig" I mean "vomit".)
21:49:47 <alise> Guess when it was released?
21:49:54 <alise> Two thousand and fucking seven they released this.
21:50:01 <alise> How amazing is that?
21:50:10 <Gregor> But ... that doesn't look like Matchbox to me :P
21:50:15 <Gregor> I guess it could be a very customized Mathcbox.
21:50:20 <alise> They probably ruined it, like they ruined everything in existence ever.
21:50:27 <Vorpal> alise, with abstracting away fs/memory distinction, how do you handle stuff like cds and usb sticks? Would still be useful to communicate with other systems
21:50:38 <alise> They even kept that ludicrous form factor for the successor phone.
21:50:47 <alise> That wasn't so orange/metally, though. So there's an improvement. A single improvement.
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21:50:53 <alise> No 3G because 3G isn't ~FREE AS IN FIEFDOM~
21:51:14 <alise> Vorpal: Those are just objects! Like everything :P
21:51:23 <Gregor> I'll bet the browser sucked foot.
21:51:32 <Vorpal> alise, objects wrapping file systems?
21:51:36 <alise> Gregor: Probably more than foot.
21:51:40 <alise> Vorpal: Oh, you mean filesystems.
21:51:59 <alise> Vorpal: Uhh... probably it'll have some sort of filesystem compatibility API if we stoop so low to allow that kind of rabble.
21:52:00 <Vorpal> alise, well yes, if I want to get some data stored on an ISOwhatever
21:52:13 <alise> Otherwise it'll happily ask you if you want to format it to store objects!
21:52:18 <Vorpal> alise, or what if I want to load images from my camera's flash card
21:52:32 <Vorpal> alise, these images I would store into a set
21:52:33 <alise> (Although saying "yes" would be a sign of insanity, as there are guaranteed to be no other systems that can read it on your continent.)
21:52:55 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah, it'd probably have a FAT32-as-nested-tree compatibility layer or whatever.
21:53:01 <alise> FAT32-as-nested-tree-with-extra-filesystem-functions, and whatnot.
21:53:08 <Vorpal> alise, would be useful yes
21:53:26 <alise> cpressey_: You became interested when I wsa boring and old?
21:53:38 <Vorpal> alise, FAT12/16/32 is about what is needed I think. Oh and ISOwhatever & UDF for cds.
21:53:41 <alise> Gregor: There's a OTG *micro* plug!
21:53:45 <alise> It's even smaller than a mini plug!
21:53:52 <Vorpal> alise, don't really need any support for other file systems
21:53:57 <alise> SO SMALL IT IS ACTUALLY INVISIBLE TO THE NATIVE EYE
21:54:08 <Gregor> alise: ... "native"? :P
21:54:11 <alise> Anyone who wants to read a Linux filesystem is a FAG.
21:54:21 <alise> Natives have been known to be naked!
21:54:35 <alise> Gregor: Can OTG still deliver the same amount of power?
21:54:52 <alise> Gregor: In specific?
21:54:52 <Vorpal> alise, how will the actual object storage be done? Got any relevant links or such to read?
21:55:06 <cpressey_> alise: I became interested imagining how filesystems-as-we-know-them and your objectspace could seamlessly coexist
21:55:09 <alise> The device will have batteries made of magic unicorns and use 0.0004 W, so.
21:55:12 <Gregor> alise: I think that's an implementation question, not a standards question. That is, a given OTG implementation may choose to do better.
21:55:16 <alise> We have power spare!
21:55:43 <Gregor> But in general they refuse to provide more than whatever the default minimum is (100mA?)
21:55:46 <Vorpal> alise, and will the language for your OS use dependant typing and so on?
21:55:59 <alise> Vorpal: Naive form: Pick binary object serialisation format. Set up some sort of on-disk paging mechanism to map The Address Space to disk. Allocate spaces on disk when you allocate objects (of a reasonable lifespan, perhaps, blah blah).
21:56:12 <alise> Serialise dirty objects -- or have them serialise themselves -- every (small interval).
21:56:22 <alise> Vorpal: Uh, the Dream Ideal OS? Who nkws
21:56:29 <alise> It's so perfect that I don't know what it is.
21:56:43 <cpressey_> just tell me where to start coding
21:56:45 <Vorpal> alise, hm, but how will we keep track of the objects. I mean, If I want to find some text I wrote about something before
21:56:57 <Vorpal> alise, with an FS I have the obvious root to start at
21:57:07 <Vorpal> then walk to wherever I want to
21:57:17 <alise> Vorpal: well obviously you can browse object space with queries and such
21:57:22 <alise> but most likely you'd have an indexing server
21:57:28 <alise> set to index stuff created as normal text or whatever
21:57:33 <alise> (rather than as a transient calculated object)
21:57:42 <alise> it's hard to be certain about any of this before it's tried out
21:57:47 <alise> but it's clearly /workable/
21:58:21 <Vorpal> alise, well lets say I just want to go back to that university-assignment-object that I worked on yesterday (but I closed it for some reason, never mind what). What would be the most likely way to re-locate it
21:58:53 <alise> Vorpal: [Magic Search Keybinding] yesterday whatever-your-university-is-called-or-a-segment-of-the-essay-title-or-whatever.
21:59:05 <alise> (The "ultra-quick magic search" interface that you start off with will magically interpret specific words, most likely.)
21:59:11 <alise> (You could finetune it afterwards.)
21:59:27 <Vorpal> alise, interesting. Would there be some sort of tags to group all assignments together
21:59:37 <Vorpal> to create something like the views of gmail or such
21:59:39 <alise> If you want, I guess.
21:59:50 <alise> Remember that this is all random ramblings by someone who, like everyone, hasn't done it yet :)
22:00:18 <Vorpal> alise, I believe it could be done though. And should be done. What is going on with loper OS for example?
22:00:22 <alise> but I think I've thought about it enough to know that there is a solution
22:00:24 <Vorpal> alise, also it reminds me of smalltalk
22:00:26 <alise> i'm just not certain what it is yet
22:00:29 <alise> Vorpal: that is one of my top inspirations
22:00:44 <alise> it's a great shame Smalltalk the OS was never pursued further
22:01:02 <Vorpal> alise, so a lot of the parts are around, just not in one place and at an OS level?
22:01:14 <alise> Vorpal: Loper OS -- Stanislav is busy fantasising about building an FPGA Lisp Machine and masturbating to his Symbolics machines.
22:01:19 <alise> (Restate that less crudely if you desire.)
22:01:21 <alise> Oh, and writing blog posts.
22:01:24 <Vorpal> alise, I want a concept compositing operator :P
22:01:34 <alise> Wouldn't that be nice.
22:02:01 <cpressey_> alise: do you realize what i could do to your house with only $50 worth of dynamite? jeez
22:02:09 <alise> Vorpal: You know, if any of this had come up in 2007/2008, I bet you'd be defending REAL PROPER UNIX over these insane unworkable systems :-D
22:02:14 <Vorpal> like smalltalk . lisp . haskell . dependant typing
22:02:19 <alise> cpressey_: Are you _entirely_ sober?
22:02:30 <cpressey_> alise: it's re the latest post on the loper os blog
22:02:54 <alise> Vorpal: We've poisoned you! Mwahahaha!
22:02:55 <Vorpal> alise, however, I bet you will continue using *nix based systems for years to come. Rather than actually do this
22:03:00 <cpressey_> alise: Stanislav is a little... out of perspective sometimes
22:03:07 <alise> Vorpal: Oh, I'll do it if I can.
22:03:10 <alise> I just won't use it.
22:03:12 <alise> I'll iterate forever. :)
22:03:19 <Vorpal> alise, um? why not use it?
22:03:24 <alise> Because it isn't perfect yet!
22:03:41 <Vorpal> alise, you can't have second system syndrome until you have a *first* system
22:03:45 <alise> ...I have rather less free time than as of this time last year, so who knows how quickly progress will go.
22:03:48 <Vorpal> unless unix is the first system
22:03:50 <alise> Vorpal: the first system is everything else!
22:04:00 <alise> technically unix is like
22:04:01 <Vorpal> it is second system syndrome
22:04:13 <alise> the first and second systems were on the right track
22:04:16 <alise> unix came and ruined it all
22:04:16 <Vorpal> alise, well yes, but not for you personally
22:04:20 <alise> and now it's fourth system syndrome
22:04:28 <alise> trying to improve on the first and second without having them
22:04:51 <Vorpal> alise, the first and second ones being?
22:05:02 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:05:09 <alise> Vorpal: ehh -- lisp machines, some aspects of Multics...
22:05:15 <alise> there are others, I've just forgotten them.
22:05:20 <Vorpal> hm I'd love to just be able to pull up an inspector on anything, just like in genera, or squeak. Genera more so iirc.
22:05:29 <Vorpal> like my browser window
22:05:30 <alise> Vorpal: yes. very.
22:05:55 <alise> Vorpal: as the system will be source-only and obviously have a nice debugger, that's easy
22:05:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, pretty useless for most apps here
22:06:06 <Vorpal> no symbolic info relevant to it and so on
22:06:07 <alise> you'll be able to fiddle about with anything
22:06:13 <alise> modify code on the fly
22:06:20 <alise> change the web page it's rendering underneath it
22:06:27 <Vorpal> alise, how useful would this be to non-geeks I wonder
22:06:39 <alise> well... ideally the user/programmer distinction should be eliminated
22:06:47 <alise> since a programmer is just a sufficiently advanced user
22:06:49 <Vorpal> alise, you think that is realistic?
22:06:52 <alise> unfortunately: no.
22:06:55 <alise> not right now, at least.
22:06:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so compilation will just be a cache for certain things
22:07:05 <alise> Vorpal: maybe when this generation has its kids.
22:07:07 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, look at the average user
22:07:14 <fizzie> Er, ignore those numbers.
22:07:27 <alise> I think we're getting better at adjusting to change, due to its accelerating rate.
22:07:28 <Vorpal> alise, I doubt it. Look at those in your age. Most aren't geeks
22:07:37 <Vorpal> alise, you are aiming for 2 generations ahead at least
22:07:39 <alise> Vorpal: no, but they can use a computer, and more importantly, they're better at adjusting to change
22:07:56 <Vorpal> alise, at this age. Everyone gets more set in their ways as they grow older
22:07:56 <alise> so they'll be more up-to-date when they're raising their kids, giving their kids a better bootstrap
22:08:05 <alise> Vorpal: but not really:
22:08:10 <alise> this is not true of everyone, certainly not
22:08:23 <alise> there are incredibly flexible, high-tech, intelligent old people
22:08:30 <alise> and i think this is becoming more common
22:08:35 <Vorpal> alise, certainly. The majority though? nah
22:08:36 <alise> the rate of change is accelerating and i believe we're adapting.
22:08:45 <alise> humanity isn't a constant
22:08:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i never said this generation could do that in particular
22:09:11 <alise> i'm just saying we're adapting to become better adapters :)
22:09:25 <alise> Anyway, this is rambling.
22:09:56 <alise> Vorpal: I believe the system will not be useful to non-geeks because it will be totally unlike anything they've learned, making people hate it,
22:10:07 <alise> and also because it won't have the backwards-compatibility of their current machines.
22:10:12 <Vorpal> alise, I despair watching most other CS students of my year program. One or two manage yes. But out of maybe 15 or so only a few are anything near my level. And these are not your average people. They are after all second year CS students. Which implies that all have some interest in the area and managed the first year...
22:10:16 <alise> Although web apps are making that less prevalent, what's the point of running this just for a browser?
22:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I must agree with Vorpal here; very very very few people are good programmers.
22:11:33 <Vorpal> alise, true backwards compat likely will be whatever-you-call-a-killer-feature-that-isn't-there
22:11:59 <Phantom_Hoover> And they tend to go for less boring careers in mathematics or the sciences, I think.
22:12:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, perhaps.
22:12:22 <alise> Vorpal: A mother-feature!
22:13:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, basically I feel like I'm surrounded by morons there. Sure, morons that try as far as their ability allow them to. But still morons. There just just one other person I could discuss topics covered in this channel with really.
22:13:53 <Vorpal> and not all of those topics
22:14:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and he previously worked at a call center. Poor him.
22:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> (I think societal pressures contribute largely to this, though.)
22:14:37 <alise> Vorpal: it has to be said that #esoteric is a rather above-average sample.
22:14:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually showing any extracurricular interest in computing results in you being branded a nerd and being ostracised...
22:15:03 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: it has to be said that #esoteric is a rather above-average sample. <-- true
22:15:13 <alise> Gregor: Hmm, crazy keyboard idea:
22:15:26 <Vorpal> alise, even the worst people in here are above average. And I'm not naming any names. But virtual worlds comes to mind.
22:15:28 <alise> Gregor: There's a little eject button that prolapses^Wlets out a keyboard shoved inside the machine's body.
22:15:41 <alise> It has a hinge that can somehow support it, so you can basically turn it into a pretty-strange horizontal laptop.
22:15:50 <alise> With a bit of a small screen.
22:16:10 <alise> Vorpal: Sgeo's right here
22:16:20 <alise> And he may be a necrophiliac and think PSOX is a good idea but he's not stupid :P
22:16:21 <Vorpal> alise, who? No I didn't mention any names
22:16:27 <alise> Oh, the /other/ virtual worlds fan!
22:17:03 <Vorpal> alise, actually I meant the two other fans
22:17:13 <Vorpal> I'm sure some of our idlers
22:17:27 <alise> We have an awful lot of idlers.
22:17:33 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Actually showing any extracurricular interest in computing results in you being branded a nerd and being ostracised... <-- I haven't seen that so much actually
22:17:34 <alise> For a very small channel that is nonetheless active.
22:17:47 <alise> I'd say there are maybe 10 people who talk more than once every three plus months.
22:17:52 <alise> And that's an overestimate, I'd wager.
22:18:09 <Vorpal> alise, I think it sounds like a pretty good estimate
22:18:19 <cpressey_> Does Megazeux count as a virtual world?
22:18:22 <alise> I need a screen that can shrink.
22:18:33 <Vorpal> alise, few talk like me and you though. fizzie should make one of them graphs again
22:18:39 <Vorpal> with data from the last year
22:18:45 <alise> So you get a smallish laptop with a keyboard, slide the keyboard back in, press the magic button, and it turns into a handheld tablet.
22:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, me, alise, Sgeo, cpressey_, coppro, ais523, augur, fizzie, Gregor, nooga, oerjan, oklopol, pikhq at least/
22:19:05 <alise> Vorpal: And nobody talks like me with the same amount of intelligence in every line!
22:19:14 <Vorpal> <alise> Gregor: There's a little eject button that prolapses^Wlets out a keyboard shoved inside the machine's body. <-- you mean like thinkpad with butterfly keyboard?
22:19:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wow, that's fourteen.
22:19:28 <ais523> meanwhile, I've been working on a new compression algorithm
22:19:36 <alise> Vorpal: Imagine an iPad (I assume you at least know what one /looks/ like; if not, imagine a big iPhone)
22:19:48 <alise> Vorpal: Now imagine a little pushed-in-slot on the side with an eject button.
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22:20:02 <alise> When you press it, it spits out a physical keyboard from inside the device, and snaps into position when it is taken fully out.
22:20:12 <Vorpal> alise, I know what an ipad looks like, though not in detail (as in I seen photos, and I presume it as a power button hidden somewhere and a few such things)
22:20:13 <alise> Now imagine that somehow there's a hinge-type dealie which can support this in a laptop position.
22:20:45 <alise> (Now imagine that the thing is bigger, so that it's a regular style laptop, except it has a button which shrinks it to sanely-holdable-like-an-iPad size if the keyboard is in.)
22:20:45 <fizzie> Hey, me. I don't have time for that right now, but I'll keep that in mind and try to remember to make some more up-to-date graphs.
22:20:47 <Vorpal> alise, but it would have to be a very flat keyboard
22:20:50 <alise> That last bit is a bit fantastical.
22:20:58 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah, well, it's already magical, you can't expect miracles.
22:21:00 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think getting a model m feeling would be realistic
22:21:15 <alise> Vorpal: You can make scissor-switches quite pleasant. But hey, it's better than a touchscreen keyboard by far.
22:21:26 <alise> ...besides, if you want a Model M:
22:21:39 <alise> Buy a Unicomp with a USB port (Model M power requirements are ludicrous even when adapted to USB).
22:21:43 <Vorpal> alise, model M *terminal edition* ;P
22:21:47 <alise> Get a USB<->USB On-The-Go cable.
22:21:52 <alise> Plug in to device.
22:21:57 <alise> Enjoy lugging around forever.
22:22:02 <alise> Contemplate waste of life.
22:22:12 <Vorpal> alise, yeah, sadly it is not realistic
22:22:20 <alise> Vorpal: Pfft, Model F indahouse.
22:22:38 <alise> Sure, it had the strangest layout imaginable, but that magnetic hall-effect thing?
22:22:41 <alise> Best keyfeel ever!
22:22:43 <alise> (I've never used one.)
22:22:52 <alise> Vorpal: the keyboard that is better than the model M and predates it
22:22:55 <Vorpal> alise, link or something? I get completely irrelevant hits
22:23:02 <alise> the hardcore keyboard fans of the Model M-type disposition love it
22:23:07 <Vorpal> alise, and magnetic hall effect is awesome everywhere
22:23:07 <alise> Vorpal: http://geekhack.org/
22:23:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Possibly-relevant fact: at my old school, all computing classes stopped completely at 13-14.
22:23:13 <Vorpal> alise, my joystick uses it
22:23:15 <alise> If it's a geeky keyboard, geekhack, always.
22:23:24 <alise> Vorpal: Well, every key on the Model F is that.
22:23:36 <alise> It's an even heavier press than the Model M, I think.
22:23:38 <Vorpal> alise, where on there is the "search"
22:23:49 <alise> Vorpal: I think you might have to log in.
22:23:53 <alise> http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?f=38
22:23:58 <alise> On the header of that forum.
22:24:03 <alise> There's a search link.
22:24:08 <alise> Probably you just want to search in reviews and pictures.
22:24:33 <alise> Name the three letter acronym of a common computer interface used for peripherals such as keyboards and mice."
22:24:42 <alise> PSF! (The F is for Forwardslash Two)
22:25:06 <alise> Vorpal: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10909
22:25:23 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_, wait, surely you'd heard me bitch about my schools idiotic computing course before/
22:25:30 <alise> And yes, Ctrl is in what some people consider the Right Place.
22:25:34 <alise> And yes, Alt is where Ctrl is on modern keyboards.
22:25:37 <Vorpal> alise, argh why does it show full size in the thread
22:25:42 <alise> Vorpal: try refreshing
22:25:49 <alise> Vorpal: yes it's a pain
22:25:51 <ais523> mice used to be serial back when I first started using them
22:26:01 <alise> hmm, that model F porn is actually just one picture
22:26:06 <ais523> and keyboards used a DIN interface, that's another
22:26:17 <ais523> I don't know of that one
22:26:22 <alise> Although it did say "common".
22:26:29 <alise> ais523: the beautiful original Apple bus
22:26:36 <alise> ais523: used S-Video cables
22:26:40 <alise> very, very simple protocol
22:26:41 <fizzie> ais523: Or LPT. Though that also is not so terribly "common".
22:26:49 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Desktop_Bus
22:26:56 <ais523> fizzie: LPT was rarely used for things like keyboard and mice
22:26:58 <Vorpal> alise, http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?s=0c174c8b14d11bdf94a6cd991f87bc4e&t=10987&highlight=Model
22:27:10 <alise> Vorpal: and you find your new favourite keyboard. :P
22:27:15 <ais523> you have to do all sorts of weird things with it to be able to both send and receive, normally LPT was for send-only devices like printers
22:27:18 <fizzie> ais523: Rarely, but still used. Especially for DIY keyboardy adapters.
22:27:24 <Vorpal> alise, non-clickly I presume
22:27:31 <alise> Vorpal: no, clicky
22:27:36 <alise> imagine the model m feel
22:27:39 <alise> except while model m is 8
22:27:42 <Vorpal> alise, in which way does it use the hall effect?
22:27:46 <ais523> (I seem to remember duplex-parallel worked by reversing the directions of four of the data lines; you needed hardware support to pull that off)
22:27:49 <alise> i think it's hall-effect
22:28:00 <alise> it's a really expensive insanely authentically clicky method
22:28:07 <alise> and people love it
22:28:20 <fizzie> ais523: Anyway, parallel port was used for pretty fast bidirectional data transfer, c.f. LapLink.
22:28:35 <alise> Vorpal: while you fawn over the idea of a 122-keyboard, I wish I had enough money to buy http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/pdkb400wn_iso_th620x400.jpg :P
22:28:39 <fizzie> ais523: Did you happen to notice me Forthing your "cancel fractions" task? (Though not very well.)
22:29:03 <alise> ($265! But they ARE Topre keyswitches... and it DOES have DIP switches on the back for configuration...)
22:29:11 <Vorpal> alise, I couldn't fit a 122 key keyboard :(
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22:30:35 <alise> Vorpal: geekhack is a great way to waste hours if you're a keyboard nerd, or to develop a keyboard nerdiness if you don't already possess one
22:30:47 <alise> you go around thinking "oh, buckling springs are absolutely fine for me" and then BOOM
22:30:49 <fizzie> ais523: I also wrote a sort of a "in the spirit of it" Befunge implementation, which "works" for some values of "works": it's just that the Befunge-93 playfield only stores characters, not full-stack-cell-width numbers, and storing in multiple playfield cells would've taken far too much space; and the only built-in number output forcibly puts that space after it, which is not so good when it needs "nnn/mmm".
22:31:04 <alise> they start talking about the nuances and tweaking of tiny little switches made of individually-hand-carved, living gnomes
22:31:05 <Vorpal> alise, alas I do find that I like one that doesn't require too much force. Model M feeling but less force would be perfect
22:31:11 <alise> with little velvet cussions at the bottom
22:31:32 <alise> Vorpal: Cherry MX Blue (if you like the insipid, unuseful "click") or Brown (if you don't; they still clack, just not an actual TIC! type of click)
22:31:50 <Vorpal> alise, I prefer less sound in fact
22:31:53 <alise> Vorpal: or Topre, which is like typing on silk and velvet with tactile feedback; very gentle switches, expensive as hell. Capacitative!
22:32:13 <alise> They're made of a rubber dome-style membrane, and /underneath/ they have a spring on top of the circuit.
22:32:25 <alise> The circuit is capacitative.
22:32:33 <alise> You can imagine how much they cost.
22:32:36 <Vorpal> alise, but F24 would be just awesome. I would design programs that required you to use those keys to operate. Just to mess around with people
22:32:42 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, and thirdly for Forth it didn't accept my version that outputted a " " after some of the lines (the ones that had "n/m" instead of just "n"), don't quite know why. I guess it's conceivable that "ignore trailing space in line" only applies when there is trailing space in all the lines, or something.
22:32:52 <alise> you can't use it on ascii systems
22:33:13 <alise> Vorpal: there's a lovely keyboard design with every fucking keyboard rolled into one by one of the geekhack members, think i've linked it here before
22:33:20 <Vorpal> alise, why not go for full Chinese keyboard?
22:33:36 <alise> Vorpal: complete unicode
22:33:42 <alise> Complete \mathbb{N} keyboard
22:33:45 <alise> Complete \mathbb{Z} keyboard
22:33:48 <alise> Complete \mathbb{Q} keyboard
22:33:50 <alise> Complete \mathbb{R} keyboard
22:33:53 <alise> Complete \mathbb{C} keyboard
22:33:56 <alise> Complete \mathbb{2^R} keyboard
22:34:03 <alise> err not 2^ as blackboard bold ofc
22:34:07 <Vorpal> that would be quite tricky to use
22:34:14 <alise> every two keys have a little door between them, see
22:34:20 <alise> and you push it apart with two fingernails
22:34:23 <alise> and it expands into stairs
22:34:26 <alise> leading down to a room
22:34:32 <alise> with all the numbers between those two numbers
22:34:35 <alise> and so on, forever
22:34:44 <alise> then you walk all the way back up to your infinitely-long computer room
22:34:57 <alise> sometimes, the lighting goes out.
22:35:20 <Vorpal> alise, as long as the magic is not based on electricity you should be fine
22:35:25 <Vorpal> if it is it sounds lethal
22:35:39 <alise> nope, it's just your average TARDIS-technology door
22:35:41 <fizzie> I was once thinking of a 256+8-key BMP keyboard; have a 16x16 grid to select the low eight bits, and 8 toggle-style keys that you use to "program" in the higher eight bits. Then you can comfortably keep all the toggles off when you're writing regular ASCII text. (And then you can do the million-dollar version that updates the keycap pictures whenever the toggles are changed).
22:35:42 <alise> ("It's bigger on the inside.")
22:36:07 <alise> fizzie: 64+9-key would be rather more practical.
22:36:25 <alise> One-handed keying is quite popular, anyway.
22:36:37 <alise> And we don't need to speculate on the reasons why, to nip that topic in the proverbial bud.
22:36:55 <alise> (I say one-handed keying because 64 isn't the whole standard keyboard set, of course.)
22:37:06 <alise> Most likely you'd have the alphabet + common punctuation on the first "plane".
22:37:32 <cpressey_> I wonder... if I covered the walls of my cubicle with keyswitches...
22:37:56 <cpressey_> Sure, I'd have to reach further. But the sheer number of switches could start to compenstate for that.
22:38:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't think tiny LCDs would cost millions?
22:39:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: That was just some hyperbolism.
22:39:12 <alise> fizzie: So, have a 16 wide by 4 high main keying area, plus a 3x3 modifier pad.
22:39:22 <alise> Hmm, 16 wide is a bit much.
22:39:34 <alise> Then you could type everything two-handed!
22:39:43 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise, oerjan told me R^2 was bijectable to R!
22:39:47 <alise> this is true of any infinite set
22:39:52 <alise> although i think it depends on the axiom of choice...
22:40:06 <oerjan> <Vorpal> alise, even the worst people in here are above average. And I'm not naming any names. But virtual worlds comes to mind. <-- "But you ruin _one_ keyboard..."
22:40:15 <alise> For another indication of the controversy that initially surrounded the Axiom of Choice, consider this anecdote (recounted by Jan Mycielski in Notices of the AMS vol. 53 no. 2 page 209). Tarski, one of the early great researchers in set theory and logic, proved that AC is equivalent to the statement that any infinite set X has the same cardinality as the Cartesian product X x X. He submitted his article
22:40:15 <alise> to Comptes Rendus Acad. Sci. Paris, where it was refereed by two very famous mathematicians, Fréchet and Lebesgue. Both wrote letters rejecting the article. Fréchet wrote that an implication between two well known truths is not a new result. And Lebesgue wrote that an implication between two false statements is of no interest. Tarski said that he never again submitted a paper to the Comptes Rendus.
22:40:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I mean
22:40:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Just for the reference, the Optimus Maximus, which I think has the regular set of ~100 keys and a 48x48 pixel 64k-color display on each key, costs 1400 eur here in Finland.
22:40:44 <alise> |A^2| = |A| for |A| >= Aleph_0
22:40:59 <alise> fizzie: The Optimus Maximus is so silly.
22:41:04 <alise> I bet it doesn't even use nice keyswitches.
22:41:15 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure it has horrible feel to it.
22:41:26 <alise> "10 frames per second minimum"
22:41:33 <alise> you just know they were going for the ridiculous-keyboard-movie aspect there
22:41:39 <alise> not their thinly-veiled excuse for a purpose
22:41:47 <alise> "viewing angle: 160°"
22:41:53 <alise> Viewing angle of a keyboard.
22:42:01 <alise> System requirements
22:42:02 <alise> At least 256 MB of RAM.
22:42:09 <Vorpal> alise, 160° doesn't seem too bad
22:42:14 <alise> The keyboard is just THAT POWERFUL.
22:42:32 <Vorpal> alise, nah, their drivers are that sucky :P
22:42:48 <alise> "Why isn’t there any Linux software?
22:42:49 <alise> Because first we want to let 95% of people to work with the keyboard."
22:42:56 <alise> Because 95% of people can afford, and are stupid enough to buy, it.
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22:43:44 <alise> [[What happens if I spill coffee, coke or wine on the keyboard?
22:43:44 <alise> The keyboard will likely break down. Just as a laptop, a TV or the Imperial State Crown in a similar situation.]]
22:43:45 <fizzie> Oh well, there's the OpenOptimus project Linux driver.
22:43:51 <Vorpal> alise, would get hard to see, fingerprints
22:43:51 <alise> Comparing your keyboard to the Imperial State Crown. Amazing.
22:43:54 <Vorpal> I mean you can't avoid themn
22:44:01 <fizzie> I guess it only supports the three-key model, though. :p
22:44:10 <alise> Vorpal: Oleophobic coating (like the iPhone 3G S has).
22:44:23 <alise> fizzie: http://en.wiki.gg.st/w/images/Openoptimus_interface_screenshot.png
22:44:25 <Vorpal> alise, also lifting keycaps to clean them sounds tricky
22:44:30 <alise> fizzie: I like the blabla placeholder text.
22:44:37 <alise> Vorpal: Oleophobic is the Japanese name for fear of Oreo cookies.
22:44:50 <alise> Vorpal: But instead, I will let Bill Nye the Science Guy explain.
22:44:51 <alise> http://gizmodo.com/5302097/giz-bill-nye-explains-the-iphone-3gss-oleophobic-screen/gallery/
22:44:53 <alise> http://gizmodo.com/5302097/giz-bill-nye-explains-the-iphone-3gss-oleophobic-screen/
22:45:01 <alise> Also known as "the only reason to ever open Gizmodo".
22:45:01 <fizzie> "BUGS: Still need to find out how to prevent the OLED Mini Three from powering off (it does shutdown automatically after a few seconds)."
22:45:12 <fizzie> Well, that's a minor issue.
22:47:00 <alise> [[A lipophobic coating is used on the touchscreens of the Apple iPhone 4[1] and iPad[2], and HTC Touch HD2[citation needed] and Hero[citation needed] to repel fingerprint oils.]]
22:47:26 <alise> [[In the future we are planning to offer keyboards where some buttons will have no displays (passive type). So you will be able to replace these buttons with those with displays.]]
22:47:46 <alise> "We are planning to make more keyboards that require you to give us more money than you just already gave us to get the 'advantage' of the only reason you bought it."
22:47:55 <alise> [[Tactile sensations are good: we use mechanical micro-keyswitches with a key travel of 2.5 mm. The activation force is, if you are interested, 50 ± 20 g.]]
22:48:00 <alise> Well, at least that's okay.
22:48:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:48:03 <alise> What the hell is a /micro/ keyswitch, though?
22:48:46 <alise> Vorpal: [[First of all, the feel of Model M isn't so great compared to the Model F. Well, at least, compared to my hand-me-down Model M. With my Model M, the end of the keystroke is a kind of "thud", because of the contact with the membrane of the keyboard. With the Model F, the keystroke is sharper, and more pronounced, as the little platters attached to each key are directly hitting the PCB of the keyb
22:48:46 <alise> oard. Each keystroke has a distinct "ping" that the Model M just can't really match.]]
22:49:24 <Vorpal> alise, platters? hitting PCB? no hall effect there
22:49:33 <alise> Vorpal: i forget exactly what it is :)
22:49:38 <alise> it's not buckling spring though
22:49:40 <alise> it's more ingenious
22:49:49 <alise> i'm sure i read hall effect somewhere
22:50:02 <Vorpal> alise, hall effect is sensing current without touching
22:50:38 <alise> oh, i seem to remember now
22:50:38 <Vorpal> magnetism is also related to it
22:50:44 <Vorpal> or involved in it rather
22:50:44 <alise> i think it has some magnets or something, the Model F
22:50:47 * cpressey_ uses a theremin as an input device
22:50:47 <alise> which then cause something to strike the PCB
22:50:51 <alise> rather than it hitting directly
22:50:53 <alise> something clever like that anyway
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22:53:16 <alise> listening to keyboard sounds is addictive
22:53:22 <alise> the taps are so relaxing!
22:54:48 <fizzie> Speaking of keyboards, engadget mobile had this newspost about... well, to quote:
22:54:59 <fizzie> "The company's [InputDynamics] developed a piece of software called TouchDevice that uses a phone's embedded microphone to analyze the acoustics inside, reacting to your finger's impact on the surface with a touchscreen-like input on the device. New Scientist reports that's not all, as the algorithms can also be fine tuned for detect scratches and swipes for scrolling and zoom, --"
22:55:04 <alise> Vorpal: Look at this lovely thing with a real TrackPoint in it: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4917
22:55:07 <fizzie> Sounds like something unlikely to work very well.
22:55:10 <alise> Unfortunately, the product was cancelled.
22:55:24 <alise> like voice recognition for fingers
22:55:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, how reliable is it?
22:55:46 <Vorpal> I mean a phone doesn't have one in each corner
22:55:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's anyone's guess; but my personal guess is "not very".
22:57:27 <fizzie> "The software can identify the point of contact to within about 1 square centimetre."
22:57:37 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: Look at this lovely thing with a real TrackPoint in it: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4917 <-- no arrow keys? :(
22:57:44 <alise> Vorpal: oh stop whining, it's awesome
22:57:49 <alise> you use emacs anyway
22:57:53 <alise> man up and learn the ctrl shortcuts
22:58:05 <Vorpal> alise, more keypresses
22:58:08 <alise> besides, it's in a case made out of fucking aluminium
22:58:14 <alise> Vorpal: err, hand travel is much more significant
22:58:19 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, wrong shape of enter key :P
22:58:19 <alise> considering you press thousands of keys a minute
22:58:38 <alise> Gregor: I hire you as a consultant on the Slate.
22:58:39 <Vorpal> alise, well I don't I'm not a typist.
22:58:49 <alise> Which will be the name of my hypothetical tablet right up until Slate magazine sues me.
22:59:00 <alise> Vorpal: How fast can you type?
22:59:04 <Vorpal> alise, anyone programming spends more time thinking than writing. At least for most languages
22:59:09 <Gregor> alise: Watch out or it'll become LCARS :P
22:59:14 <oerjan> <alise> although i think it depends on the axiom of choice... <-- in fact it's equivalent to it
22:59:16 <alise> Gregor: I am watching out.
22:59:40 <alise> Gregor: You: find me something that has an ARM chip on it and also USB OTG.
22:59:51 <alise> that's what i meant
22:59:54 <alise> and i quoted it after
23:00:04 <alise> Gregor: What GHz is it again?
23:00:20 * oerjan is typing far up in the backscroll in case you didn't guess
23:00:28 <alise> I mean, this is going to be powering a decent-resolution (well, for a small thing) screen with X11 on Linux running some sort of modern browser :)
23:00:40 <alise> http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM
23:00:45 <alise> Hmm, Cortex-A8 at 1 GHz.
23:00:55 <alise> Just 512 MiB of RAM, though. And DDR, too.
23:00:57 <alise> Well, the amount is fine.
23:01:01 <alise> The DDR part... not so much.
23:01:23 <alise> Gregor: Do you know what the Beagleboard's OTG power supply is like?
23:01:33 <Gregor> alise: 100mA no matter what.
23:01:36 <alise> Could it power a fancy mouse or keyboard?
23:01:57 <Gregor> alise: I've cheated by buying a USB hub with secondary power and plugging the secondary power into a cheap USB battery.
23:02:00 <alise> Gregor: So many LEDs it's like turning the basement light on.
23:02:02 <Gregor> I did not cause explosions by doing this.
23:02:17 -!- augur has joined.
23:02:21 <alise> What about the Optimus Shittus Maximus? :P
23:02:39 <GreaseMonkey> i love this: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/IRP
23:02:52 <alise> GreaseMonkey: 2005 welcomes you!
23:03:19 <alise> I LOVE HAVING SEX WITH MEN!
23:03:25 <alise> AS MUCH AS I LOVE 2005
23:03:28 <alise> AND I REALLY HATED 2005.
23:03:40 <alise> 2005 WAS THE FIRST TIME I HAD SEX WITH A MAN.
23:03:46 <GreaseMonkey> but yeah, what was that C subset language or am i just imagining things?
23:03:49 <alise> SO OBVIOUSLY I HATE IT
23:03:54 <alise> to less capitally pastures
23:03:58 <alise> GreaseMonkey: dunno.
23:04:05 <Gregor> GreaseMonkey: Uhhh, there are lots of C subset languages ...
23:04:50 <alise> <Gregor> alise: I've cheated by buying a USB hub with secondary power and plugging the secondary power into a cheap USB battery.
23:04:53 <pikhq> Including the preprocessor!
23:05:06 <alise> also, i wonder if we can hook up the fancy battery to two things at once
23:05:10 <alise> to supply usb power
23:05:15 <Gregor> alise: Bluetooth adapter.
23:05:15 <alise> i.e. have everything on a hub
23:05:18 <Gregor> alise: Oh, and a mouse.
23:05:20 <alise> although it'd be hard to stuff it all in
23:05:30 <alise> we'd have built-in bluetooth :P
23:05:55 <alise> Gregor: do you think the pop-out keyboard with hinge idea is feasible?
23:06:00 <alise> I really hope it is, because that would be kickass.
23:06:18 <Gregor> What's wrong with sliding or something else more ... conventional?
23:06:50 <Gregor> I mean, I don't think that's infeasible, I just think it's not appreciably better than more achievable alternatives :P
23:06:58 <alise> "Oh hello, I'm just tapping on my EVEN BETTER THAN IPAD. Look at my seamless multitasking of fancy things and hardcore Linux applications. LOOK AT IT. I am typing in a terminal. Whoops! I just put it on the table. And took out a keyboard. And hinged it up. Oh hello, I'm just typing on my AWESOME NETBOOK."
23:07:05 -!- cheater99 has joined.
23:07:06 <alise> Gregor: Sliding keyboard == tiny keyboard.
23:07:31 <alise> Gregor: I guess I am basically proposing a sliding keyboard, except it's inside the casing.
23:07:48 <Gregor> So I'm just splitting hairs for effectively no reason.
23:07:52 <cpressey_> GIGANTIC SLIDING KEYBOARD CRUSHES LOCAL MAN - page 3
23:07:53 <Gregor> So yeah, E_WORKSFORME.
23:08:04 <alise> Gregor: Sweet. Now figure out how to get the whole hinge thing working.
23:08:07 <pikhq> alise: Imagine a keyboard on the iPad. That comes on a hinge. Hey, it'd be a laptop! AWESOME
23:08:13 <alise> Well, pop-out mini-stand I guess.
23:08:30 <alise> Without feeling weird in your hands all the time and popping out at the most inopportune times.
23:08:33 <Gregor> pikhq: Yes, it halves the retardedness of the iPad by making it usable for non-retarded things.
23:08:48 <ais523> don't typical hinged keyboards work by lifting up the screen to reveal a keyboard below, then rotating the screen 180 degrees so it faces the keyboard?
23:08:50 <pikhq> Gregor: Stick a proper OS on it and it ceases to be retarded.
23:08:51 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:09:16 <alise> pikhq: The OS will be proper... although obviously designed for primarily touch usage.
23:09:27 <alise> Actually that's a good point, you'd look like a dickwad touching the screen then typing.
23:09:30 <ais523> alise: what's your opinion on Android?
23:09:33 <alise> But a touch interface with a mouse would be weird. Hm.
23:09:36 <alise> ais523: Uhh, it's a mobile OS.
23:09:40 <pikhq> (is there any reason for the iPad not to have actual OS X?)
23:09:46 <alise> ais523: It's... fine?
23:09:52 <alise> pikhq: Good luck hitting targets that small.
23:09:58 <ais523> I was wondering if you were going to rant against it, or something like that
23:10:02 <alise> Also, the iPad OS is pretty good. Just not the App Store.
23:10:11 <alise> ais523: It's too boring to have an opinion on.
23:10:24 <pikhq> alise: With a better UI.
23:10:26 <GreaseMonkey> uh, someone needs to delete some spam: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1252908587/l50
23:10:31 <pikhq> Say, iOS except less crippled.
23:11:11 <alise> pikhq: I'm thinkin "totally-integrated UI to application selection and filesystem navigation", and "no concept of an 'open' application exposed".
23:11:28 <alise> That is, the switcher just shows a list of applications, ordered by last use; the more recently use, the brighter the icon, say.
23:11:55 <alise> And applications that can save their state and quit seamlessly get automatically closed after a certain amount of idle time.
23:12:26 <ais523> hmm, that's how Android works
23:12:40 <ais523> you switch away from an application, it keeps running in the background for a while, and might get garbage-collected later
23:12:44 <alise> ais523: i think it still has an open-app-switcher thing
23:12:52 <alise> so you still know what's open or not, so to speak
23:12:57 <ais523> and it's an application's responsibility to persist state no matter how it ends up being switched back to
23:13:01 <alise> rather than there being no concept of opening and closing applications
23:15:16 <alise> i think there'll be a tab bar of some sorts to serve as the taskbar...
23:15:27 <alise> maybe i can hack up chrome to open a new window for each tab so that that blends in
23:15:47 <alise> Gregor: I don't suppose the Beagleboard has 3G hardware? :P
23:15:58 <ais523> alise: would you ever close browser tabs?
23:15:59 <Sgeo> alise, no, I don't think it does have an open-app-switcher
23:16:09 <ais523> or would they stay open forever, just sliding down to the end of the list?
23:16:14 <pikhq> alise: The phone companies are *ridiculously* paranoid about letting custom hardware on their networks.
23:16:19 <alise> ais523: that's what i don't know :)
23:16:22 <alise> i think closing would be possible
23:16:24 <alise> just to mean "go away"
23:16:45 <alise> pikhq: it's a total shame because non-3G mobile internet is shit
23:16:49 <alise> EDGE is half-acceptable, but...
23:16:56 <pikhq> If you don't mind a lack of voice access, though, you could probably figure out a way to get a 3G modem hooked up.
23:17:02 <oerjan> GreaseMonkey: i suspect only graue has access to delete stuff on the forum
23:17:02 <ais523> I like the idea of a web page and an application being indistinguishable, on that sort of system
23:17:07 <alise> pikhq: oh, no telephone capabilities
23:17:10 <ais523> even though it's one of the things I hate about IE8 on Windows 7
23:17:13 <alise> ais523: I think Jolicloud does that
23:17:15 * pikhq would *love* to homebrew a cell phone
23:17:33 <alise> pikhq: It's just a tiny tablet PC with telephone equipment :P
23:17:41 <alise> I mean I agree I would too, but...
23:17:45 <alise> I never actually use the phone part of my phone.
23:17:52 <pikhq> I do, but not often.
23:17:59 * Sgeo once, a long time ago, saw a kit on building your own cell phone
23:18:00 <ais523> hmm... I'm busy discovering that bubble sort really is /that/ inefficient
23:18:02 <alise> If I really needed to call someone, I would be happy using Skype.
23:18:05 <Sgeo> I think it was for kids
23:18:06 <ais523> what's the best way to sort a linked list? mergesort?
23:18:14 <alise> Sgeo: it was probably just "Put the case on!"
23:18:16 <alise> ais523: i think so
23:18:22 <pikhq> Nor do I use the mobile Internet *much*. (typically use WiFi)
23:18:26 <alise> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/algorithms/listsort.html
23:18:30 <alise> first result for "sort a linked list"
23:18:33 <alise> WikiAnswers - How would you sort a linked list
23:18:34 <alise> Computer Terminology question: How would you sort a linked list? using merge sort.http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/algorithms/listsort.html.
23:18:36 <alise> Merge sort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
23:18:36 <alise> Merge sort is often the best choice for sorting a linked list: in this situation it is relatively easy to implement a merge sort in such a way that it ...
23:19:03 <ais523> yep; I can sort-of see how it would be implemented
23:19:04 <alise> mergesort is my favourite sorting algorithm
23:19:08 <alise> ais523: click that link to see how :P
23:19:16 <alise> (by the PuTTY developer)
23:19:23 <alise> also by the coroutines-in-C macros "developer"
23:19:35 <alise> "Enigma: a block-pushing puzzle game. Originally invented by a friend; converted to a curses-based Unix game by me."
23:19:38 <alise> got confused there
23:19:42 <alise> thought it was the other Enigma
23:20:15 <Sgeo> What was it orignally?
23:20:15 <oerjan> GreaseMonkey: also that spam is several months old, there isn't _really_ enough to bother, it's just there are even _less_ real posts :D D:
23:20:23 <Sgeo> Before being a UNIX game?
23:20:30 <alise> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/enigma/
23:20:34 <alise> I can't claim credit for inventing Enigma; the game rules were devised by somebody else, who also designed the twelve original levels. He wishes to remain anonymous, so he has donated the levels to the public domain. This reimplementation of the game engine is done in C, from scratch, by me.
23:20:56 <alise> ais523: you're the Insanity Consultant for Slate
23:21:01 <alise> your job is to keep everyone else sufficiently insane
23:21:28 <Sgeo> Time to watch The Guild
23:21:30 <ais523> alise: there are quite a few games called Enigma, IIRC
23:21:43 <alise> Gracenotes: "It has elements of Boulderdash and elements of Sokoban"
23:21:43 <cpressey_> alise: why does he get scare quotes around "developer"?
23:21:50 <Sgeo> Counting the ex-game?
23:21:56 <alise> cpressey_: It's the same guy; and because they're only a few lines long really.
23:21:58 <alise> It's more an article.
23:23:10 <oerjan> ais523: i'm pretty sure ghc uses merge for it's sort implementation, for example
23:23:16 <Sgeo> alise, the contest in Agora
23:23:20 <Sgeo> Before contracts died
23:23:29 <alise> Sgeo: ...the marble game that ais523 has made levels for
23:23:36 <alise> Gregor: ais523: I suggest we base the OS on Windows CE.
23:23:49 <ais523> there's at least one shareware game with that name too, because someone posted to the marble-game mailing list talking about it
23:24:03 <ais523> alise: wouldn't that require paying for licenses just to get started on development?
23:24:05 <Sgeo> alise, learn to ais523lineread?
23:24:07 <alise> heh, I thought for a second the list was actually called marble-game, as a historical relic
23:24:19 <ais523> and also restrict the hardware to not run on a Befunge machine?
23:24:24 <Sgeo> <ais523> alise: there are quite a few games called Enigma, IIRC
23:24:25 <Sgeo> <ais523> at least three
23:24:30 <alise> ais523: We can virtualise.
23:24:44 <ais523> do windows CE licenses allow virtualisation?
23:24:52 <alise> ais523: We'll make a business deal with Microsoft.
23:25:02 <ais523> surely you'd need a viable product first?
23:25:15 <alise> ais523: Microsoft don't have one.
23:25:20 <alise> Look where they are!
23:25:29 <ais523> xbox 360 has just started to make money, IIRC
23:25:48 <ais523> and their mouse-rebranding business is doing quite well too, I think
23:26:22 <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I implemented a linked-list heapsort already, to the horror of anyone who knows anything about algorithms
23:28:51 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:30:53 <GreaseMonkey> well, let's say that I typed IllegalArgumentExpression by mistake.
23:33:06 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:34:00 <oerjan> GreaseMonkey: ...i vaguely recall that you want an IDE with autocompletion for Java. not that i've ever used one. or written anything in Java beyond the Hello World level.
23:34:49 <GreaseMonkey> the former displays garbage once you hit 2000 lines
23:35:01 <GreaseMonkey> the latter just craps out badly for no apparent reason
23:35:18 <GreaseMonkey> (it runs fine and then after some time it decides to break)
23:44:25 <alise> Gregor: pikhq: Awesome idea warning!
23:44:50 <alise> Let's not even have a concept of installed application. You have favourite applications or whatever, and opening an application for the first time just downloads it.
23:44:59 <alise> Non-favourite applications that you don't use in a while get baleeted.
23:45:19 <alise> These applications all being from the repo, that is.
23:46:53 <alise> My main fear is wrangling Linux/X11 into all this. :)
23:47:23 <oerjan> baleeted: thrown to the whales
23:47:26 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:47:32 <alise> The whales of /dev/null.
23:49:18 <alise> Gregor: pikhq: Tell me I'm an idiot or something! At least comment. :P
23:51:21 <alise> iPad: 190 x 243 mm
23:51:46 <alise> A5: 148 x 210 mm, for comparison.
23:52:07 <alise> US Letter: 216 x 279 mm
23:52:25 <alise> Conclusion: The iPad is... not any particular paper size.
23:53:06 <oerjan> !haskell (243/190, phi)
23:53:13 <alise> Just keep the comments rolling, totally.
23:53:22 <alise> oerjan: i doubt it
23:54:06 <alise> for the A# it's sqrt(2) ofc
23:54:25 <alise> "With a soft microfibre interior and reinforced panels to provide structure, the iPad Case is the perfect way to carry around your iPad. And it does double duty. It folds in just the right places to act as a stand that holds iPad at an ideal angle for watching videos and slideshows or for typing on the onscreen keyboard."
23:54:28 <alise> Gregor: They stole OUR IDEA.
23:54:44 <alise> Except, wait, not actually with the keyboard part.
23:54:54 <oerjan> !haskell (243/190, (sqrt 5 + 1)/2)
23:55:24 <oerjan> dead as a doornail, so it wasn't just phi being undefined
23:55:31 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:55:49 <alise> !haskell main = putStrLn "rabies"
23:56:11 <alise> oerjan: I fixed it.
23:56:18 <alise> !haskell (243/190, phi)
23:56:27 <oerjan> i said phi isn't defined
23:56:31 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.520.hs:2:0: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
23:56:38 <oerjan> just a braino, since pi is
23:56:38 <alise> !haskell (243/190, (sqrt 5 + 1)/2)
23:56:41 <EgoBot> (1.2789473684210526,1.618033988749895)
23:56:47 <alise> I am such a genius for fixing that.
23:58:03 <Sgeo> When will HackEgo have Factor [language]?
23:58:14 <alise> sdoifjodfjoidjgoigfjh
23:58:16 <oerjan> Sgeo: when you add it?
23:58:22 <alise> oerjan: it needs divine intervention
23:58:25 <alise> Sgeo: he SAID he removed it
23:58:29 <alise> because it slowed down the VCS too much
23:58:36 <Sgeo> I didn't realize
23:58:37 <alise> unless you send him patches to fix the VCS it's not happening
23:58:44 <oerjan> (it's possible, in principle)
23:59:00 <oerjan> wait VCS? why is that a problem?
23:59:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:59:51 <alise> oerjan: something like that
00:00:41 <alise> Gregor: I propose we sue Apple for funding.
00:01:50 <alise> I wish it was easy to put graphical Linux programs in a sandbox. Wait... we could!
00:02:31 <alise> Y'see, what I'm thinking here now is: You put an apt:// link on a page, and voila! Clicking it "downloads" (installs with the installed-GC thing) and opens it in a total sandbox.
00:02:47 <alise> Because really all it needs to be able to do is access your ~ based on a file open/close dialogue...
00:04:05 <alise> INSUFFICIENT TALKING
00:04:10 -!- wareya_ has joined.
00:04:12 <alise> * Topic for #slate is: The Slate programming language | http://code.google.com/p/slate-language http://www.slatelanguage.org http://github.com/briantrice/slate-language http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/slate/
00:04:28 <alise> cpressey_: Slate is old
00:04:34 <alise> it was hosted on tunes until recently
00:04:56 <alise> it's prototype-based smalltalk (which is cool)
00:04:59 <alise> cpressey_: just now, you mean?
00:05:11 <alise> I was quoting it to curse them for stealing my channel name.
00:05:20 <alise> cpressey_: No, "Slate" is my tablet.
00:05:20 * Sgeo switches his loyalty and love to Slate
00:05:57 <Sgeo> Wait, prototype-based Smalltalk? So, what's the difference between Slate and Self?
00:06:05 <alise> cpressey_: :douglasadams:
00:06:13 <alise> Sgeo: slate has more unicorns
00:06:23 <alise> also, it's different.
00:06:27 <alise> Sgeo: it has multimethods
00:06:31 <alise> i.e. methods aren't attached to the object
00:07:01 * Sgeo likes CLOS-like, but hasn't actually tried CLOS
00:07:09 <Sgeo> Just Factorness, which is apparently CLOS-like
00:07:56 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:07:56 <cpressey_> what comes next in this sequence: Thue, ///, ...
00:07:57 <alise> I think I hate your guts.
00:08:02 <alise> cpressey_: a donkey
00:08:15 <alise> a LED with no power supply
00:08:16 <cpressey_> alise: i ain't gonna implement no donkey in R though.
00:08:25 <alise> This is the statistics R, right?
00:08:35 <alise> Do it in E instead.
00:08:43 <alise> http://www.erights.org/
00:08:52 <alise> The capability-security language.
00:09:04 <alise> <cpressey_> ANOTHER PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
00:09:06 * Sgeo still wants Newspeak to mature
00:09:08 <alise> <cpressey_> ANOTHER PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
00:09:42 <alise> why have you become boring
00:10:12 <alise> you're just whatevering anything without looking at it :P
00:10:41 <Sgeo> Not boring: Sgeo going insane.
00:10:48 <Sgeo> Actually, wait, that is rather boring
00:11:03 <alise> haha they call e users elang-ers
00:11:06 <alise> the erlang guys must hate them
00:12:33 <oerjan> now if we made a language named "er" ...
00:12:44 -!- cpressey_ has quit (Quit: is boring now and thus doesn't belong here.).
00:13:08 <alise> i think cpressey may be a bit pissed off.
00:13:13 <alise> just a hunch though
00:15:09 <alise> ais523: quick, generate an insane idea
00:17:09 <alise> Gregor: pikhq: Does the Device work on you?
00:17:14 <alise> It's very rusty...
00:17:22 <oerjan> alise: hey you didn't notice my insane idea
00:17:28 <alise> oerjan: what was it
00:17:32 <oerjan> it could be a cross of E and R
00:17:42 <oerjan> <oerjan> now if we made a language named "er" ...
00:17:44 <alise> that's not insane, you're slipping
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00:22:34 <ais523> alise: a program that automatically creates a 3D world to explore given only a text adventure as input
00:23:05 <alise> ais523: noted. wait, on the Slate?
00:23:17 <ais523> you asked for an insane idea
00:23:23 <nooga> my head just exploded
00:23:39 <ais523> for a Slate, it would be more useful getting it to automatically illustrate fiction books
00:23:44 <ais523> as reading is a common use for a tablet PC
00:23:55 <alise> ahh i dunno with a regular display that's not so good :P
00:24:06 <alise> I'd use one of those Pixel Qi displays, but... they're not really ready yet.
00:29:48 <alise> A realistic portrayal of AI! http://cowbirdsinlove.com/906
00:30:16 <alise> (Also notable for being the first ever instance of the line "Suck it, Werner Heisenberg!".)
00:30:41 <alise> (Note: Has title text)
00:34:14 <Slereah> Every webcomic does nowadays
00:34:38 <alise> Wow, CBIL used to have terrible art.
00:35:15 <alise> (http://cowbirdsinlove.com/5)
00:35:34 <alise> (That's actually better art than in 1-4 :P)
00:35:52 <alise> oerjan: if you can call that a WEBCOMIC
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01:03:39 <alise> There is an Inspector Gadget Minus Gadget
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01:28:05 <Gregor> alise: Is it just Penny (was that her name?) solving all the crimes/mysteries for no apparent reason?
01:28:20 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6MR14mFtIw
01:28:28 <alise> It flows perfectly
01:30:23 <pikhq> "Where's Uncle Gadget" indeed.
01:32:20 <Gregor> I figured they'd remove all references to him.
01:32:27 <Gregor> But just all scenes with him.
01:32:31 <Gregor> That's kinda interesting :P
01:34:47 <Gregor> So he's taking the jet, which presumably means he already killed Gadget, and we just didn't see those scenes.
01:35:11 <Gregor> Penny seems unconcerned.
01:36:01 <alise> <Gregor> I figured they'd remove all references to him.
01:36:01 <alise> <Gregor> But just all scenes with him.
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01:37:51 <Gregor> "Uncle Gadget will never find us here!"
01:40:10 <Gregor> "Sounds like everything's back to normal" WHERE IS THE PILOT FOR YOUR PLANE
01:40:54 <Gregor> It is amazing how irrelevant Gadget is :P
01:41:41 <Gregor> There are probably strictly MORE idiosyncrasies in the normal version.
01:42:27 <pikhq> Gadget serves to be the namesake.
01:42:35 <pikhq> Crappy job, really.
01:53:44 <pikhq> There's *tobacco* subsidies in the US.
01:53:49 <pikhq> In addition to tobacco taxes.
01:54:13 <pikhq> *We simultaneously tax and subsidise tobacco*.
01:56:22 <oerjan> although i don't know that there is tobacco grown in norway, i'm pretty sure similar stuff applies to most of our farming
01:58:44 <oerjan> and the EU has the CAP
02:00:57 <oerjan> alcohol might be a better example for us, i'm sure we both make it and (even more sure) tax it heavily
02:02:19 <oerjan> pikhq: btw you asked the other day if norwegian was hard to learn. i forgot about the bokmål/nynorsk/dialects complications
02:03:05 <oerjan> although you'd normally only learn to _use_ bokmål specifically, you'd want to learn to understand the rest...
02:03:34 <pikhq> oerjan: Do you have the government *paying people* to make alcohol?
02:04:27 <oerjan> pikhq: maybe not for making the alcohol but probably for growing the plants to make it
02:05:55 <oerjan> i'd _guess_ there are no _specific_ alcohol subsidies.
02:09:06 <pikhq> We directly pay people to grow tobacco *explicitly*. And then tax the tobacco when it's sold.
02:09:27 <pikhq> Oh, and the payment for the tobacco subsidy comes out of the tobacco tax.
02:13:27 <Gregor> So basically, the government IS the tobacco industry.
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02:51:19 <Sgeo> Why doesn't emacs in Perl mode have any C-c bindings?
02:54:33 <Sgeo> Can someone please explain Perl
02:54:43 <Sgeo> Perl's weird behavior upon doing modulo 1?
02:54:47 <Gregor> Is 'ua' in "actually" a diaeresis?
02:56:02 <Sgeo> print (5 % 1);
02:56:10 <Sgeo> Erm, that [ was just my prompt
02:56:35 * oerjan assumes you figured it out
02:57:11 <Sgeo> I cannot rightly comprehend the confusion of ideas that led me to believe that doing something modulo 1 would simply round the something
02:57:56 <oerjan> what a load of babbage
02:58:03 <pikhq> Gregor: I doubt it.
02:59:06 <Gregor> pikhq: I guess I'm trying to figure out if 'ua' is a diphthong :P
02:59:26 <Gregor> Well if it is, then actUAlly is a diaeresis!
02:59:34 <oerjan> Gregor: this non-native speaker guesses it depends on dialect, like everything else
02:59:38 <Gregor> Or maybe just how I pronounce it?
02:59:49 <pikhq> oerjan: Quite true.
03:00:01 <pikhq> English has a lot of variation in the spoken language.
03:00:12 <pikhq> I don't know how it compares to other languages in that regard.
03:00:22 <Gregor> I guess a lot of people just pronounce it like "actchally"
03:00:45 <pikhq> (*ignoring* things like "Chinese" which are a fucking language *family*, last mutually intelligible 2000 years ago)
03:02:42 <oerjan> well i can say that norwegian has a bit as well :P
03:03:49 <pikhq> oerjan: Actually, some argue that you've merely got a single Scandinavian language. :P
03:04:19 <oerjan> that's when we invade them with our army and navy
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03:04:56 <oerjan> or at least look sternly at them
03:05:09 * Sgeo titles his homework assignment with the thing about Perl in the topic
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03:49:35 <Sgeo> Are you a regular here? If not, what do you believe this channel is about?
03:49:41 <__s> It's odd seeing a discussion of one's program without their presence
03:49:55 <__s> I believe this discussion is about esoteric programming languages
03:50:18 <Sgeo> Ok, just wanted to be sure. Some people come here thinking that it's about ... spiritual stuff.. esoterica?
03:50:23 <__s> Seems the two I recognize from what I read previous is Deewiant and pikhq
03:50:47 <__s> http://github.com/serprex/Befunge
03:50:56 <__s> Finally fixed it
03:51:12 <__s> Discussions I found were from before I had it running Wumpus even
03:51:48 <__s> Reading made me wish I'd heard some things prior
03:52:06 <__s> I'm about to test with dimensions of powers of two
03:52:30 <__s> But overall I figure I should inquire to the details of what's been done with Befunge and jits so far
03:53:04 * Sgeo is probably the wrong person to ask
03:53:15 <__s> Right now I have an idea that would lack an optimizer. An array of commands' assembly to glue together
03:53:34 <__s> I'm aware there's an LLVM attempt, but LLVM is rather heavy to what should be rather light weight
03:53:45 <__s> Unladden swallow is quite amusing
03:54:53 <oerjan> __s: i recall fizzie had a jit befunge under construction
03:55:24 <__s> But he's sticking to the habit of keeping a program under wraps until it's done?
03:55:47 <__s> Programs are never done, release broken code and keep releasing broken code. Sooner or later people will think it works
03:55:54 <oerjan> i don't know _that_, but last i heard it still was pretty buggy
03:56:31 <__s> I've been finding it rather hard to find fast interpreters
03:56:34 <oerjan> also for all i know he _has_ put it on the web, i just don't remember
03:56:51 <__s> fizzie: jit befunge where?
03:57:18 <oerjan> hm i guess fizzie's jit is the llvm attempt you mention
03:58:06 <__s> How was the performance, bugs aside?
03:58:13 <__s> Performance including memory use
04:00:20 <__s> Is there a resource better than the rather scarce esolang where I can find fast Befunge interpreters and benchmarks?
04:00:56 <oerjan> not that i know, unless it's linked there
04:01:09 * oerjan is definitely not a befunge expert
04:02:06 <oerjan> i only recall fizzie's jit because it was discussed in this channel
04:03:05 <ais523> __s: the mycology website's decent for compliance testing
04:03:15 <ais523> and it tends to touch on those other issues tangentially as a resut
04:03:22 <__s> Mycology was good for 98
04:03:53 <ais523> people have mostly abandoned 93 except for fun, it's mostly limited
04:04:02 <ais523> well, 98 is fun too, but in a different way
04:04:28 <__s> First I want to go as far as I can with 93
04:04:46 <pikhq> "AOL working with Jonas Brothers to 'redesign the Internet'"
04:04:58 <oerjan> i also recall mycology has a 93 part but the interpreter needs to load only the 80 x 25 top part
04:05:04 <pikhq> If this actually happens and takes off, I am beginning a genocide program.
04:05:05 <ais523> well, interps that do 98 quickly tend to do 93 quickly
04:05:16 <__s> Mycology's 93 test was rather short
04:05:25 <ais523> cfunge and ccbi are both pretty good
04:05:35 <ais523> but there isn't so much you can fit into a -93 program, at least in terms of messages
04:05:38 <ais523> nor so much you can test
04:05:38 <__s> How much is 98 a superset of 93?
04:06:00 <ais523> well, as in 93 programs tend to work unchanged in 98
04:06:07 <ais523> unless they rely on weird undocumented behaviour
04:06:12 <ais523> the main difference is the behaviour of whitespace in strings
04:06:13 <pikhq> Which is much of Befunge.
04:06:24 <ais523> well, you'd be a fool to /rely/ on it
04:06:49 <pikhq> It's not specified what the memory space is filled with.
04:07:22 <ais523> in practice, spaces or zeros
04:07:27 <ais523> but you can always write it by hand to make sure
04:07:34 <ais523> or just fill the entire 80x25 area in the initial progra
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04:09:02 <__s> With 93 I was thinking of an assembly solution that would work by having all instructions be the same size
04:09:47 <__s> I'm unsure how much it'd raise itself over a threaded interpreter
04:09:57 <__s> It'd be able to gain speed in one direction
04:10:18 * pikhq has finally broken down and gotten a Facebook account... Thing.
04:10:42 <Sgeo> Mycology has -93 sup.. oh
04:12:01 <__s> pikhq: Where would I find your threaded Befunge interpreter?
04:12:13 <pikhq> __s: Uh. Lemme pastebin.
04:12:35 <pikhq> I need to get a website.
04:12:39 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/XdXE
04:14:01 <Gregor> pikhq: You need to get ..
04:14:12 <Sgeo> pikhq, you're not in the Navy, are you?
04:14:13 <__s> I didn't use rand because it's rather meh
04:14:37 <pikhq> Sgeo: Why would you ask, anyways?
04:14:45 <__s> I like your method of setting up the lookup table
04:14:50 <pikhq> Gregor: ZOMG I KNOW
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04:15:36 <Sgeo> pikhq, because there's someone with your name on Facebook who's in the Navy
04:16:39 <Sgeo> Oh, misremembered your name
04:17:24 <Gregor> And of course right now, as per almost never, my Facebook photo isn't a real picture :P
04:17:27 <__s> Seems mine's faster on my adder benchmark. But of course that's flawed, since that's what I optimized for. What benchmark do you use?
04:17:39 <ais523> Gregor: amusing, given how many real pictures of you there are around the internet
04:18:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: Josiah Worcester.
04:18:23 <Sgeo> Found you via Gregor's page
04:18:40 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but the Gregor *artist* page does have a real picture.
04:19:02 * Sgeo wonders if he should maybe allow online persons to see tagged pictures of me
04:19:08 <Sgeo> What's the worst that could happen?
04:19:10 <Gregor> ais523: http://codu.org/tmp/existentialism.png this is my current FB picture :P
04:20:09 <pikhq> Sgeo: Gah, I ignored the friend request and then realised it was you.
04:20:25 <pikhq> "Have I *ever* met this guy? No." "... Oh, Sgeo. Fuck."
04:21:48 * Sgeo should get around to making a decision on the 80 or so pending friend requests
04:22:47 <Sgeo> You're less privacy-conscious than I?
04:22:48 <__s> Did you experiment with having x,y be a single value?
04:22:52 * Sgeo can't spell today
04:23:05 <Sgeo> Actually, I can: t o d a y
04:23:24 <pikhq> Sgeo: Dude, I practically run around going "I'm Josiah 'pikhq' Worcester, and I live in Colorado" online.
04:23:41 <Sgeo> pikhq, how often do you give out your address online?
04:23:44 <Gregor> pikhq: Dood, I'm more exhibitionist than you!
04:23:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not that often.
04:24:11 <__s> Somebody stated their address to me one time
04:24:11 <pikhq> Gregor: Yeahyeahyeah.
04:24:17 <__s> I showed up the next day
04:24:24 <__s> They had me out the door within half an hour
04:24:33 <Gregor> __s: I feel that pikhq ought to be responding to you, so I will because I don't really do Befunge :P
04:24:57 <Gregor> __s: Was this just like "My address is <X> if you want to send me a postcard" and then you showed up?
04:25:23 <__s> Was an MSN contact, person stated their address since they were having a party
04:25:26 <Sgeo> I don't do esolangs that often, except for PSOX which isn't an esolang
04:25:29 <pikhq> __s: x,y as a single value? No, I didn't really mess with it much.
04:26:07 <Sgeo> Although Mixfix will be a beautifully readable language that combines prefix, infix, and postfix, and is just incredibly awesome
04:26:15 <Sgeo> As long as you don't mind your brain exploding
04:26:17 <__s> Was curious, since it's one of the more arbitrary choices we diverged on
04:26:56 <__s> Sgeo: Inspired by shuffling yard fun when you don't sanitize input?
04:27:16 <Sgeo> shuffling yard?
04:27:44 <Sgeo> Inspired by me thinking that "somequestion?" is nice as postfix, but postfix if gives me headaches. And also wondering about doing prefix without parens
04:27:48 <__s> Friend of mine implemented a shuffling yard infix parser, it ended up also accepting postfix
04:28:25 <__s> I'm wishing there was a language that would let infix use space parans
04:28:39 <__s> a+b * c -> (a+b)*c
04:29:04 <Sgeo> Doesn't Falcon (hated be the language) do that?
04:29:15 <__s> I'ven't seen this Falcon
04:29:37 * Sgeo may be mistaken
04:29:43 <Sgeo> But I'm certain I've seen it somewhere
04:29:51 <Sgeo> Maybe some dead language loved by alise
04:30:32 <Sgeo> http://www.falconpl.org/ WARNING: NOT SAFE FOR SANITY
04:30:59 <Sgeo> Monads are .. somehow hard-coded in
04:31:05 <__s> It makes me feel like it is trying to sell something too much
04:31:09 <Sgeo> There's a special bit, I think. I don't really know the details
04:32:43 <Sgeo> I could _swear_ I've seen the feature you're asking for before though
04:34:53 <pikhq> Aaand someone running for Congress in the US (as a Republican) wants to *ban masturbation*.
04:35:15 <pikhq> ... And believes her enemies hide in shrubs.
04:35:32 <wareya_> >Republican congress candidates
04:35:38 <wareya_> Hahahahahahaha, that's funny!
04:35:54 <pikhq> How is it that one of the two major parties here is not merely bad but *ACTUALLY CRAZY*?
04:36:17 <wareya_> The democrats are just less crazy.
04:36:37 <pikhq> Oh, see, the Democrats are (mostly) just assholes.
04:36:38 <wareya_> Also, a vast majority of the land in america is covered by white trash.
04:36:51 <pikhq> The Republicans are *literally crazy*.
04:37:04 <pikhq> And yes, that's true. The vast majority of the *land* is unsettled.
04:37:05 <wareya_> Don't get me wrong, the democrats are too.
04:37:31 <wareya_> The republicans are the bright white that makes the gray of the democrats look like black.
04:37:39 <pikhq> When was the last time a Democrat claimed his enemies were literally hiding in the bushes?
04:38:03 <wareya_> I dunno, I don't pay attention to regional politics all over the country.
04:38:09 <pikhq> I'm not saying "the Republicans are doing some ignorant things". I am saying that they have ceased to have any grip on sanity.
04:38:10 <__s> Falcon seems a lot like Python with Ruby block syntax with the creator's eccentricities all over. I thought they'd gone for Python's going for a print function, then figured the whole > >> syntax
04:39:03 <wareya_> "the Republicans" have to sensualize everything to make other republicans vote for them.
04:39:13 <wareya_> White trash isn't smart enough to care about actual politics.
04:39:16 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or do the only two near-term options for healthcare both suck?
04:39:36 <Sgeo> Leave HCR as is (it's rather broken) or undo everything, going back to previous painful breakage?
04:39:45 <Sgeo> HCR is a good start that needs to be fixed
04:40:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: We can't have good healthcare. Industry wouldn't profit.
04:40:20 <wareya_> They should have just built on medicare.
04:43:27 <pikhq> wareya_: That would be sane.
04:43:46 <pikhq> And the few sane and reasonable Congressmen did, in fact, propose that.
04:43:51 <pikhq> It was a 4 page bill.
04:44:04 <wareya_> Too bad out congress is insane.
04:44:11 <__s> pikhq: I don't think US can feasibly get healthcare. They're jealous of us Canadians, but Canada's healthcare is having trouble keeping up with the population finally growing closer to 40M rather than 30M
04:45:19 <pikhq> __s: So, you think it will remain being the only developed nation without universal healthcare?
04:45:48 <pikhq> Presumably this has something to do with $1 trillion being an okay defense budget but heaven forbid a few billion go towards healthcare.
04:46:32 <__s> How well working are other nations' healthcare? It's a messy thing, pushed too much by all that altruism for people who can't prove themselves
04:46:38 <Sgeo> If I get sick, how difficult would it be to move to Canada?
04:46:50 <wareya_> THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR YOUR FREEDOM
04:47:15 <__s> I suppose that defense debt is something to deal with factor wise
04:47:30 <pikhq> __s: Our healthcare system is comparable with some third-world nations.
04:47:43 <pikhq> It is by far the worst of any developed nation.
04:47:57 <wareya_> Most third world nations have better healthcare than america
04:48:20 <wareya_> Except for Expensive Innovative Special procedures
04:48:24 <pikhq> Sgeo: Depends on a few things.
04:48:25 <__s> How much is it held back by legislation not allowing a competitive price to enter the market?
04:48:49 <pikhq> __s: Healthcare is inherently non-competitive in many situations.
04:49:11 <pikhq> (namely, emergency care. Which, incidentally, is the *only form of care many Americans get*.)
04:50:10 <pikhq> Also, most of the "not allowing a competitive price" thing is actually the *insurance companies*.
04:50:12 <__s> That's the problem with US in some ways. It's unsure whether to let business push or government, so it ends up being that the government tells business to push while constricting business from doing so
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16:03:56 * oerjan verbs Phantom_Hoover in a Phantom_Hoovering way
16:06:47 <fizzie> Verb some nouns there.
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16:14:48 <SgeoN1> And now it's acting as if the HD is mostly dead
16:16:25 <SgeoN1> Mostly, though. It is successfully getting to the point where it asks which OS to boot into
16:17:18 <oerjan> SgeoN1: you appear to be cursed
16:17:35 <SgeoN1> Any chance of downloading a small, bootable OS to my phone?
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16:18:17 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: As long as you make sure to maintain the delicate verb-noun balance.
16:20:50 <SgeoN1> I can't very well use a computer to make my phone be bootable usb
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16:22:46 <SgeoN1> Not much capacity, I am on wifi
16:23:08 <fizzie> Also, no optical drives to boot from? Though I guess actually preparing boot media might be tricky if you don't have one handy.
16:23:09 <SgeoN1> I guess I can delete some stuff
16:23:26 <SgeoN1> I have an ancient computer at home
16:23:35 <SgeoN1> But I want to solve this in class
16:26:09 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, well, the Ubuntu live disk is ~700MB, so that's no good.
16:26:14 <fizzie> Getting the phone's USB mess-storage device bootable from the phone itself sounds untrivial, unless someone's already done a tool for that. Though I guess if it just exports a memory card directly you could dd a boot sector in.
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16:28:07 <fizzie> But if it does something to make the memory card usable simultaneously from the phone and via USB, it might be that it fakes a device and filesystem over USB, and thusly might not be able to make it bootable.
16:28:39 <fizzie> Gah, awful weather out there, but I need to get home from this conference-place.
16:29:32 <SgeoN1> It's not simultaneously available
16:30:17 <fizzie> Then it sounds doable. I guess you have a dd on the phone?
16:35:53 <SgeoN1> Using a classmate's PC
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16:40:13 <SgeoN1> Just finished with pendrive's instructions
16:45:07 <SgeoN1> Avoiding erasing my SD card?
16:45:35 <Phantom_Hoover> And in any case, if you need instructions for a flash drive, you will never get it to work in a BIOS.
16:45:40 <SgeoN1> Also, what else could I have done from Windows?
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16:48:42 <SgeoN1> Dear thingie that happens when I try using the installed Ubuntu: stop complaining about the nonMS os
16:49:37 <SgeoN1> I think a genuine dual-boot setup would have saved me here
16:52:55 <SgeoN1> Always have bootable media on hand?
16:53:37 <SgeoN1> Don't use the Windows based Ubuntu installer?
16:54:54 <SgeoN1> I think there were times that it was helpful
16:56:31 <SgeoN1> What's the chance of actual physical damage?
16:58:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't you use Windows since AW doesn't have the decency to run on a nice OS?
17:02:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't let a single piece of software dictate your decisions to the extent that your computer can be made into a very expensive nightlight with a single drop.
17:02:38 <SgeoN1> I don't think even Windows can cause physical damage
17:04:38 <SgeoN1> I probably have an Ubuntu LiveCD lying around
17:04:58 <SgeoN1> And if not, I do have an old.computer with disk burning ability
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17:07:36 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, why the hell did you use the Windows installer in the first place?
17:08:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, it installs Ubuntu *in an image file on your Windows filesystem*.
17:08:59 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: That's still better than Slack's old umsdos installation.
17:09:17 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: For some values of "better" anyway.
17:09:30 <SgeoN1> Going off irc to save battery powe
17:10:26 <fizzie> That one installs to bazillion files in a directory on a FAT filesystem, with extra data (long filenames, permissions) in some hidden metadata files.
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17:16:52 <fizzie> Given the intensity of rain here, I sure hope this poster tube is waterproof. It has this telescoping extensible design that I find suspicious.
17:21:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, is Finland one of those places where the weather is consistently interesting?
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17:24:08 <fizzie> It's not proverbially bad, but I guess there's a moderate amount of variation.
17:25:21 <fizzie> This year's summer was uncommonly warm and sunny, but the autumn seems thus far normally wet.
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17:27:04 <fizzie> Whoops, this phone is about to run out of freshly squeezed orange juice. Maybe I'll stay quiet for the rest of the bus trip.
17:27:16 <SgeoN2> Some tech guy put my HD into some external reader thing, and the disk showed up as uninitialized
17:27:40 <fizzie> You hit it so hard the bits fell off.
17:28:20 <SgeoN2> Is this as terrible a sign as he implied?
17:28:41 <fizzie> It certainly is not a *good* sign.
17:29:47 <fizzie> Still, there are tools to extract files from byte soup even if partition and filesystem structures are gone.
17:30:37 <fizzie> Reading a full disk image out might be a good idea, assuming you have space for one somewhere.
17:33:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that, given Wubi's idiotic installation system, your NTFS partition was corrupted and your Ubuntu system fell with it.
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17:47:18 <alise> like an artichoke!
17:47:41 <alise> 01:37:32 <fizzie> I think they have some sort of automation to catch people who do long-running CPU-intensive tasks.
17:47:44 <alise> then what's the point?
17:50:38 <alise> 18:54:47 <Gregor> Is 'ua' in "actually" a diaeresis?
17:50:48 <alise> Why are you all asking about this so much :P
17:51:19 <alise> US pronunciation is /ˈæk.tʃu.ə.li/
17:51:24 <alise> unfortunately i don't know what that implies :D
17:51:36 <alise> Gregor: give me the syllables of actually
17:52:04 <alise> so it's a diarrheasis.
17:52:24 <Gregor> That was my argument too, but that's only the case if 'ua' is actually a diphthong normally :P
17:52:29 <alise> "In linguistics, diaeresis, diæresis or dieresis, is the pronunciation of two adjacent vowels in two separate syllables rather than as a diphthong or vowel digraph, and also the name of the diacritic mark ( ¨ ) used to prompt the reader to pronounce adjacent vowels in this manner."
17:52:37 <alise> Gregor: no, it's valid anywhere technically :P
17:52:46 <alise> you'd just be mad to use it on /anything/ except adjacent identical vowels
17:52:50 <alise> which is its only real purpose
17:52:54 <alise> nobody says actu-ally or whatever
17:53:04 <alise> and - is just the diaeresis
17:53:46 <alise> coëfficient is fine because you can say co-efficient without seeming retarded
17:56:35 <Gregor> Naïve is another example.
17:56:44 <Gregor> There are plenty of examples that are adjacent different vowels.
17:57:12 <alise> yes but as a general rule
17:57:15 <Gregor> And since a naïve reader of "naive" would pronounce it as "knave", there's a plenty-good reason to have a diaeresis mark there.
17:57:25 <alise> English is well-known to be inconsistent :P
17:57:33 <Gregor> Your FACE is well-known to be inconsistent.
17:57:33 <alise> Oh yeah: English spelling reflects pronunciation so well usually.
17:58:37 <Gregor> Your FACE reflects pronunciation so well usually!
17:58:56 <Gregor> Yes, I am going to keep saying "your FACE <whatever>" as a response to everything :P
17:59:32 <alise> My face reflects your FACE.
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18:01:04 <Gregor> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE
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18:05:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:08:11 <alise> After the Tuttle CentOS incident, wherein city manager Jerry Taylor of Tuttle, Oklahoma's web host, which uses CentOS, had technical issues, leading him to threaten to report CentOS to the FBI (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/24/tuttle_centos/):
18:08:13 <alise> Taylor stated that those commenting about him online were "a bunch of freaks out there that don’t have anything better to do ... [CentOS is] a free operating system that this guy gives away, which tells you how much time he’s got on his hands."
18:08:22 <alise> I guess he doesn't need his web site after all, then.
18:09:00 <alise> (In response to the media coverage of the incident, Taylor defended his actions and pointed out that his threats of FBI action were effective. “After that, he called me Mr. Taylor,” he said, “And he got me the information I needed.”)
18:09:08 <alise> (Maybe we should waterboard him and claim it was effective afterwards.)
18:12:00 <Gregor> Report CentOS to the FBI ... for what?
18:12:31 <alise> http://www.centos.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=127
18:12:36 <alise> The complete email exchange.
18:13:47 <alise> Gregor: Area of Tuttle, Oklahoma: 29.2 square miles.
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18:14:12 <alise> "Tuttle is a largely agricultural community with a focus on wheat, cotton, corn, alfalfa hay, Bermuda grass hay, and cattle."
18:14:14 <alise> Big shots, these guys.
18:14:27 <alise> "The racial makeup of the city was 91.34% White, 4.98% Native American, 0.16% Asian, 0.09% from other races, and 3.42% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 2.21% of the population. 0% of the population is African American."
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18:16:24 <Gregor> Well, it is Oklahoma :P
18:16:37 <alise> Not just Oklahoma; City of TUTTLE, Oklahoma!
18:17:29 <alise> "Will Johnny be pursued by the FBI?
18:17:29 <alise> Will the City of Tuttle disappear, only to be replaced by a generic apache test page?
18:17:29 <alise> I am surprised he isn't emailing the Apache Tribe and threatening them, too!"
18:17:31 <alise> lol @ the second one
18:17:50 <alise> Welcome to City of Tuttle!
18:17:56 <alise> If you are the administrator of this town...
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18:36:40 <SgeoN2> I guess I should logread
18:36:55 <SgeoN2> See if anyone said anything about my plight
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18:41:22 <alise> Vorpal: 148-key MEGABOARD: http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/images/enhpc.gif
18:41:36 <alise> "The previous keyboard illustration showed a basic set of keys that could fit on a normal PC keyboard, taking the same amount of space, even though moving the main area of the keyboard slightly to the right created space for a few additional keys. The emphasis was on showing how APL characters could be distributed.
18:41:36 <alise> Since, however, among the added keys were the extra shifts used with the Emacs editor, and on the Symbolics LISP machine, this inspired looking again at how an expanded keyboard which provides the extra keys used in a number of environments that people have grown fond of, and which can be hosted on a PC today.
18:41:36 <alise> Thus, the keyboard illustrated above has 148 keys, so that someone running Solaris on their machine, or someone running a system based on the old Symbolics LISP Machine software or someone connecting to an IBM mainframe via IBM terminal emulation, and thus wanting the extra keys from the 122-key keyboard: those who were doing any or all of those things would have all the keys they are looking for."
18:43:35 <SgeoN2> Alise I should have listened to you
18:44:53 <alise> You broke your system with it?
18:45:09 <alise> I'm sorry, but I must: Ha ha! and I told you so.
18:45:12 <alise> ...now how can I help.
18:45:25 <SgeoN2> No, but it means the installed Ubuntu is utterly useless to me
18:45:44 <alise> Wubi is utterly useless :) but what do you mean?
18:46:47 <SgeoN2> Dropped laptop, gets to OS selector but not further. Tech person at school put HD in external reader and drive showed up as uninitialized
18:47:21 <alise> If he didn't fuck with it I might be able to help...
18:47:27 <alise> Is the bootloader GRUB or NTDLR (Windows)?
18:47:31 <alise> Also, my rate is $100/hr.
18:47:41 <alise> (Or $101/hr as a special discount for friends!)
18:48:29 <alise> 19:55:24 <__s> But he's sticking to the habit of keeping a program under wraps until it's done?
18:48:29 <alise> 19:55:47 <__s> Programs are never done, release broken code and keep releasing broken code. Sooner or later people will think it works
18:48:40 <alise> or maybe stop assuming you have a right to see someone else's code before they want you to?
18:49:11 <SgeoN2> Which means, to me, that something's reading
18:49:15 <alise> 20:04:40 * pikhq groans
18:49:15 <alise> 20:04:46 <pikhq> "AOL working with Jonas Brothers to 'redesign the Internet'"
18:49:39 <alise> SgeoN2: In the MBR, yes.
18:49:46 <alise> That doesn't say anything about whether any partitions exist on the disk, though.
18:49:50 <alise> What boot options does it list?
18:49:56 <alise> If you have a camera on that fancy phone of yours, now would be a great time to use it.
18:51:04 <alise> SgeoN2: Your operating system is /probably/ recoverable, but -- do you have any valuable data? If so, the most prudent strategy will be to salvage that onto external media, and then to perform a complete reinstallation.
18:51:13 <alise> Salvaging Windows /and/ Wubi's Ubuntu would be tricky at best...
18:52:35 <SgeoN2> What if Linux can't see the partition easily? Any tools that would help with that?
18:52:52 <alise> Possibly. First, let's just ... move this to /msg, to complete my sentence with a different one.
19:00:33 <alise> 20:24:11 <__s> Somebody stated their address to me one time
19:00:33 <alise> 20:24:17 <__s> I showed up the next day
19:00:45 <alise> Fly to England, buddy
19:01:53 <alise> 20:28:25 <__s> I'm wishing there was a language that would let infix use space parans
19:01:53 <alise> 20:28:39 <__s> a+b * c -> (a+b)*c
19:01:53 <alise> 20:29:04 <Sgeo> Doesn't Falcon (hated be the language) do that?
19:01:53 <alise> 20:29:15 <__s> I'ven't seen this Falcon
19:01:53 <alise> 20:29:37 * Sgeo may be mistaken
19:01:54 <alise> 20:29:43 <Sgeo> But I'm certain I've seen it somewhere
19:01:56 <alise> 20:29:51 <Sgeo> Maybe some dead language loved by alise
19:02:57 <SgeoN2> Alise is obviously just as much of a necrophile as I am
19:04:59 <alise> 20:39:16 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or do the only two near-term options for healthcare both suck?
19:04:59 <alise> 20:39:36 <Sgeo> Leave HCR as is (it's rather broken) or undo everything, going back to previous painful breakage?
19:04:59 <alise> 20:39:45 <Sgeo> HCR is a good start that needs to be fixed
19:04:59 <alise> 20:39:47 <Sgeo> imo
19:05:05 <alise> enact single-payer healthcare immediately.
19:05:17 <alise> 20:46:32 <__s> How well working are other nations' healthcare? It's a messy thing, pushed too much by all that altruism for people who can't prove themselves
19:05:22 <alise> 20:48:25 <__s> How much is it held back by legislation not allowing a competitive price to enter the market?
19:05:38 <alise> i love how holier-than-thou the free market guys are...
19:05:51 <alise> despite taking all the "communistic" privileges given to them by their state
19:06:07 <alise> ...hey, it's like economics fundamentalism
19:13:55 <alise> Slate needs a better name
19:19:11 <alise> Gregor: http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim//2010/09/14/dell-tablet-flip-small.jpg
19:19:14 <alise> DELL FUCKING STOLE MY IDEA
19:19:22 <alise> Except differently
19:24:24 <Gregor> alise: That's ... bizarre.
19:24:34 <Gregor> But assuming that's a capacitive touch screen, should be good.
19:25:13 <alise> Gregor: Of course Slate has a capacitative touch screen.
19:27:17 <pikhq> alise: Hey, it's not communism if you're hurting people in the name of profit!
19:28:19 <alise> pikhq: You. You are the Consultant Consultant for Slate.
19:28:23 <alise> You will be consulted.
19:28:51 <pikhq> alise: I presume it shall be a Slate.
19:29:12 <pikhq> Will it be made of slate?
19:29:16 <alise> pikhq: I consult you on the topic of whether you know what Slate is or not.
19:29:22 <alise> It will be made of metaphorical slate.
19:29:36 <pikhq> alise: I know very little of what Slate is.
19:29:58 <alise> pikhq: Slate is thin! Slate is beautiful! Slate goes any- no, that's the iPad ads.
19:30:23 <pikhq> From hints, I gather it's a tablet with a touch screen, that is designed to meet the Hird Standards of Design
19:30:23 <alise> pikhq: Slate is basically touchscreen tablet PCs -- or, uh, the iPad (except it has a fancy physical keyboard) -- done right!
19:30:33 <alise> The keyboard actually comes out from inside.
19:30:39 <alise> And there's a hingey-type design so it can stand like a laptop.
19:31:15 <alise> Also: Reasonable multi-tasking OS. Sure, everything takes up the whole screen, but ratpoison users do that even on the desktop!
19:31:40 <pikhq> And full-screen != single-tasking.
19:31:51 <alise> Repositories. etc. Probably no concept of "application install", with just "favourite applications" and the system treating non-favourite application installations as basically cache.
19:32:13 <alise> Probably -- or even just "maybe" -- no concept of open vs. closed program. Programs are GCed, if that plan is taken.
19:32:23 <alise> Browser: probably just a hacked-up Chromium.
19:32:51 <alise> It uses X11 for ease, but the marketable feature is that it supports any X11 app you want!
19:32:57 <alise> Except, uh, maybe not the GIMP.
19:33:43 <alise> pikhq: ...USB On-The-Go port so you can plug in a keyboard. (Also Bluetooth support for sane people who want to plug in a keyboard.)
19:34:54 <alise> pikhq: Reasonable-resolution display (obviously). Form factor similar to A4 paper/iPad, but, you know, different. Probably has to be tweaked a bit so the horizontal orientation is alright to use, since that's what you'll have to use when using the keyboard.
19:34:59 <alise> (Or maybe not? Who knows.)
19:35:17 <alise> pikhq: Not sure how to handle one thing: if the interface is designed for touch, how do you use it in laptop mode?
19:35:33 <alise> A mouse to operate a touch interface is... gruesome. Leaning forwards and prodding at your laptop's monitor is... yeah.
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19:43:14 <alise> pikhq: So, I consult you on the solution.
19:43:27 <alise> Ideas preferred the more ridiculous they are.
19:44:01 <fizzie> alise: Here's one: remove fingers from everyone, then you.. uh, can't do touch at all. Wait, that doesn't quite cut it.
19:44:15 <alise> fizzie: You are now the Anticonsultant.
19:46:37 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, uh, yeah.
19:46:52 <alise> pikhq: Go consult.
19:47:23 <pikhq> alise: Create a tactile touch keyboard. You can guesture upon the keyboard or type, both naturally.
19:47:38 <alise> pikhq: Yes -- and the pony, too.
19:47:40 <alise> pikhq: Consult moar
19:47:50 <alise> (Serious response: I don't think anyone's perfected a tactile touch screen yet, dude.)
19:48:05 <pikhq> alise: Wear a black turtleneck and convince people that touching a vertical surface is the best thing ever.
19:48:42 <alise> pikhq: You are the worst consultant ever.
19:49:05 <pikhq> Better than fizzie.
19:49:58 <fizzie> It's hard to be worse than someone that keeps cutting fingers off your customers.
19:52:42 <alise> fizzie is an anticonsultant, not a consultant. For a reason, too.
19:52:57 <alise> pikhq: Third solution!
19:54:00 <fizzie> Install a cybernetic third eye on everyone's forehead; one that allows for direct telepathetic communication with the Slate. Then you don't need more than one user interface.
19:54:41 <pikhq> I actually quite like that idea, except for the economic infeasibility of having enough magician-surgeons on hand to perform such an operation.
19:55:18 <alise> pikhq: Slate thing I'm currently thinking about: a secure method of click-a-link-on-the-web-and-the-wonderful-app-opens.
19:55:42 <alise> (This also allows an "install" method: click it, then click wherever on the screen turns the little favourite-app star on. Tada.)
19:55:54 <alise> pikhq: I'm wondering if I can beat PolicyKit/SELinux into submission.
19:56:25 <alise> The idea would be that clicking an application for the first time would say "This application needs access to the following things to function: - Your webcam - Your personal files. Is this okay?"
19:56:30 <alise> But unfortunately, this helps little.
19:56:39 <alise> Anything that even lets you save a file would have the latter! Although only write permissions.
19:56:50 <alise> Basically the only hole here is reading and writing to ~...
19:57:17 <pikhq> Per-app storage, and then you have special permissions for accessing other-app storage.
19:58:06 <alise> pikhq: You know, I am aiming for a *modicum* of Linux compatibility here. :P
19:58:21 <alise> And overt application-centricity makes baby kitten jesus vomit.
19:58:56 <alise> [[Opening a file using the pet grants it the right to read and write the file. (File extensions can be associated with a pet.)
19:58:56 <alise> Polaris intercepts the pet's use of the Windows file chooser dialog box so that it acts as a Powerbox. This means that when the user chooses a file in a File dialog opened by the pet, the system grants the pet access to that file.]]
19:58:58 <alise> if this was practical with linux
19:59:14 <alise> and i think one-press app runs are pretty nice
20:00:21 <SgeoN1> Don't use Android-style permissions </alreadysaid>
20:00:27 <alise> What does Android do?
20:00:45 <SgeoN1> At app install, lists permissions
20:04:17 <alise> Anything wrong with that?
20:08:51 <alise> Maybe we'll prompt on API use, then. Like FLASH!
20:09:00 <SgeoN1> Overly broad permissions ( is it asking for phone/I'd because it wants a unique I'd, o
20:09:02 <alise> "Foofooapp wants to use your camera!"
20:09:07 <SgeoN1> R something more sinister?
20:09:21 <Gregor> R: something more sinister.
20:09:37 <SgeoN1> Annoying users and having them always click yes is also bad
20:11:52 <fizzie> SgeoN1: Do you have some sort of typofixer there for "ID" -> "I'd"? I mean, "unique I'd"?
20:12:02 <SgeoN1> I met a girl who said, among other things, that Calculus is easy
20:12:55 <fizzie> R: the language of pirates.
20:13:17 <SgeoN1> And I accidentally pressed enter, there was supposed to be an or
20:14:08 <alise> Calculus is not exactly hard at the pre-university level...
20:16:17 <alise> pikhq: It would be nice if we could have an eInk-style display for reading books. Start negotiations with Pixel Qi.
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20:25:32 <alise> you're the consultant for slate
20:26:17 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
20:26:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
20:28:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Everything!
20:29:51 <alise> pikhq: http://imgur.com/zDMB4.png "TABLETFORMERS, laptops in disguise!"
20:30:01 <alise> That bottom view is meant to be the button you press to unleash the keyboardism.
20:32:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.09.15, grep "Slate is basically".
20:36:46 <olsner> perfume is usually like 95% alcohol - doesn't taste good at all
20:36:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes
20:39:48 <SgeoN1> There are people who think that separation of church and state is a Nazi thing (Glen Urquhart, for instance)
20:39:52 <alise> they don't have dates
20:40:06 <SgeoN1> I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
20:40:11 <alise> SgeoN1: there are people who fuck plush toys. both are equally ignorable
20:40:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: all i really see is "Omg google are awesome".
20:41:14 <SgeoN1> Said person is running for Congress
20:41:46 <SgeoN1> This, funnily enough, reminds me of an xkcd
20:42:01 <alise> i'm sure someone running for congress fucks plush toys.
20:44:30 <pikhq> Oh, almost certainly.
20:44:33 <Gregor> "The next time your liberal friends ask you about the separation of church and state, ask them why they are Nazis," Urquhart says to the audience.
20:44:43 <alise> there's probably a plush toy running for congress
20:44:46 <Gregor> I needed that for thinking.
20:44:48 <pikhq> Gregor: *AAAAGGGH*
20:44:49 <alise> who has secret relationships with humans
20:45:05 <pikhq> I was horribly unaware that *Thomas Jefferson* was a Nazi.
20:45:27 <pikhq> (you may know him for such things as writing the US Constitution and coining the phrase "seperation of church and state")
20:45:43 <pikhq> Declaration of Independence, sorry.
20:45:52 <alise> now get to consulting
20:45:57 <pikhq> He was merely one person involved in the Constitution.
20:45:59 <alise> Gregor: You: produce a mascot.
20:46:36 <Gregor> alise: A mascot for people who fuck plush toys?
20:46:42 <alise> Gregor: Er. I suppose so.
20:46:56 <cheater99> "alise: A mascot for people who fuck plush toys?" << looks like a headline
20:47:05 <Phantom_Hoover> You may have thought the Nazis were German. But they are American!
20:47:15 <Gregor> alise: http://www.griefcoaching.com/images/Brown%20w_tear2.jpg
20:47:29 <alise> Gregor: Or, slate. Your choice.
20:48:09 <Gregor> alise: The above image is a mascot for both.
20:48:34 <alise> Slate: Affiliated with the North American Man/Plush Toy Love Association!
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20:50:22 <Phantom_Hoover> My conclusion is that this man is a true American patriot, trying to give the Founding Fathers their true credit for Nazism, rather than letting the Germans steal the glory.
20:50:51 <Gregor> http://img.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/72364/Rat%20teddy%20bear-500x384.jpg TOO ... ADORABLE ...
20:51:36 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, he both owned slaves and (ironically) tried to make slavery one of the reasons to rebel in the Declaration of Independence.
20:52:05 <Phantom_Hoover> See? Those damn liberals, trying to pry America from its roots!
20:52:26 <pikhq> Cognitive dissonance is truely one of the fundamental principles of the US.
20:55:11 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, the British were denying Jefferson his right to slavery?
20:56:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, he was a slaveowner opposed to slavery.
20:56:11 <pikhq> Your head asplode... Now.
20:57:05 <pikhq> He owned slaves. And wanted to end slavery.
20:59:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Please tell me there's something you're leaving out that makes this whole thing make sense.
21:00:07 <pikhq> He both owned slaves and wanted to end slavery. *And that's it*.
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21:04:14 <SgeoN1> Want to conserve battery
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21:09:55 <trinithis> I just thought of a new funge language
21:10:46 <trinithis> its kinda like befunge, but like a crossword puzzle
21:10:58 <trinithis> instructions are chains of letter that form words
21:13:10 <trinithis> ... such a bad minesweeper score :(
21:19:42 <trinithis> found it when browsing a befunge implementation blog
21:20:04 <trinithis> just finished writing my own Funge-98 interpreter
21:21:06 <trinithis> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html#cat:compilers/interpreters
21:21:22 <trinithis> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/Fungi
21:23:30 <fizzie> Out of curiosity, how Mycology-compliant it is?
21:27:34 -!- fungot has joined.
21:27:48 <fizzie> Well, for a Befunge person, maybe we should hype our usually-resident bot, fungot.
21:27:48 <fungot> fizzie: well, we wouldn't have bothered to pay attention to it
21:28:09 <fizzie> Yeah, certainly don't pay any *attention* to what it says, but it's still written in Funge-98.
21:28:11 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
21:29:10 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
21:29:25 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10. all functions are down... got the terra arm and the crisis arm! found a dreamstone?! then i'll repair the masamune!
21:29:42 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez!
21:29:54 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: the king awaits. you saved our queen? you see, the mammon machine are as follows. the y button displays the time to drop by!? all the young must migrate to other planets...to repeat the cycle...
21:30:12 <Phantom_Hoover> He threatened to kill me last time he was on that setting.
21:30:25 <fizzie> It's probably a ploy of some sort.
21:30:50 <fizzie> False sense of security and all that.
21:31:40 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's a machine that looks like you!
21:31:58 <fizzie> Among the other notable features are Brainfuck and Underload interpreters.
21:32:04 <fizzie> ^bf ,[.,]!brain-fuckery
21:32:26 <fizzie> And that's probably pretty much it.
21:33:34 <fungot> trinithis: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...
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21:36:09 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's statue before my shift. i hate! ayla not like...
21:37:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
21:37:39 <fizzie> That's the full list of styles of nonsense it has.
21:38:05 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
21:38:14 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: con. signeor arme, arme with speed. the conclusion is, then thou, the greatest soldier of the world
21:40:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I can only assume that fungot thinks me the greatest soldier in the world/
21:40:01 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: duk. no: i made vnto the noyse, when soone i heard, oh could i finde it still, when any virgin comes for fnord lest that for fear or such sinister practise she should be denied.
21:40:28 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: luc. i beleeue thee: i pr'ythee, fnord
21:41:25 <pikhq> Sooo, I do believe that fungot got fed with period orthography.
21:41:26 <fungot> pikhq: lieu. no, i am not partiall to infringe our fnord the fnord
21:41:54 <fizzie> "Our fnord the fnord", heh.
21:42:12 <fizzie> It's the placeholder for all frequency-less-than-a-threshold tokens.
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21:42:39 <pikhq> fizzie: And clearly Shakespeare had a lot of low-frequency tokens.
21:42:58 <pikhq> What's the frequency of fnord in yonder Fungot?
21:43:08 <fizzie> I didn't do the filtering in all models, so some of them are non-fnordy.
21:43:21 <fizzie> Let's see if I still have the data files.
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21:43:59 <fizzie> If I have, they're not in the pile where the rest of the stuff is.
21:44:29 <fizzie> I guess the language model dumping script might be able to tell me that, though.
21:44:43 <fizzie> I think the root node will have plain unigram (read: token) counts.
21:46:24 <fizzie> Eeexcept that I can't find my model-dumper.
21:47:41 <fizzie> Oh, it's in the twungot pile.
21:47:56 <pikhq> Gregor: You finished Op. 13?
21:48:00 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: corn. to this effect, before you answer warwick. his demand springs not from edwards well-meant honest loue, but in defence, be thus vpbrayded, chid, and rated by northumberland, did speak these words, these lookes, infuse new life in me
21:49:28 <pikhq> Ah, loue and vpbraysion
21:50:03 <pikhq> fizzie: It seems you may want to (somehow) normalise v/u.
21:50:34 <pikhq> As the text you have there seems to predate them being distinct graphemes.
21:50:40 <Gregor> pikhq: Mind you, I did by dropping one movement X-P
21:50:56 <Gregor> pikhq: Your FACE is CHEAT.
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21:51:40 <fizzie> 0.07 % of tokens are UNK, if I read the output right. And that's probably not the only thing to normalize; there's a whole lot of punctuation that has ended up in the vocabulary.
21:52:25 <fizzie> There's a lot of cases with "foo" and "foo;" both in there, I guess the punctuation tokenifier didn't handle semicolons right.
22:00:56 <olsner> http://i53.tinypic.com/34zeic1.gif behold, the cat, mouse, ten thousand numbering system
22:01:07 <olsner> aka katten/musen/tiotusen
22:01:48 <olsner> http://i51.tinypic.com/212adkp.gif <-- you can even use it for linear algebra
22:04:08 <pikhq> Sorry, insufficient pedantry.
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22:13:07 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, commentary of Japanese friend on your Facebook snippet: "3/4 baked".
22:15:16 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: 3/4 baked? Whawhawhawha?
22:15:39 <Phantom_Hoover> He says that on second thought, you probably know more actual grammar than me.
22:16:04 <pikhq> Japanese not his native language or something?
22:16:38 <pikhq> So, I've probably gone ahead and done something unidiomatic there.
22:16:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I think he's bilingual and has spoken Japanese from a very young age.
22:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> And yes, he basically says that it's not wrong but unidiomatic.
22:17:26 <pikhq> Whereas I'm decent at Japanese, but absolutely not fluent.
22:17:47 <pikhq> And it becomes really obvious when I say something correct but unidiomatic.
22:20:32 <pikhq> Incidentally, I greatly appreciate corrections.
22:22:43 <Phantom_Hoover> He said that "だそうだ" would be a better alternative from a spoken point of view.
22:24:11 <pikhq> Mmmm. Makes sense.
22:42:06 <alise> <pikhq> Ah, loue and vpbraysion xD
22:44:13 <alise> <olsner> http://i53.tinypic.com/34zeic1.gif behold, the cat, mouse, ten thousand numbering system
22:44:13 <alise> <olsner> aka katten/musen/tiotusen
22:44:13 <alise> <olsner> http://i51.tinypic.com/212adkp.gif <-- you can even use it for linear algebra
22:44:18 <alise> olsner: are you married?
22:47:00 <alise> pikhq: how's the pixel qi deal going
22:47:10 <alise> i don't actually think you're boring :(
22:47:53 <alise> I want a Pixel Qi IPS AMOLED display!
22:50:18 <alise> Pixel Qi displays are so awesome; extremely lightweight, on the order of 5-10x less power than a regular display outside, transflective (this is an actual term) display so you can turn the backlight off and have it usable when there's lighting (http://pixelqi.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/outside_pq.25513142_large.jpg) unlike regular LCD displays
22:50:32 <alise> with the backlight off as readable as eInk
22:50:41 <alise> can be used with capacitative touch
22:50:56 <alise> aaand they're planning wide angle screens in winter 2010-2011
22:51:01 <alise> also apparently a "slim version" whatever that is, in Q1 2011
22:51:13 <alise> pikhq: What I am saying is: Slate totally has to use a Pixel Qi display.
22:51:29 <alise> The only tablet that's *actually suitable* outside, and as an eBook reader.
22:52:07 <alise> (Pixel Qi was founded by the people who made the OLPC's display.)
22:52:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
22:53:07 * Phantom_Hoover decides to look up the elemental composition of slate.
22:54:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Quartz is SiO2, so you can get the silicon necessary from that.
22:54:47 <Phantom_Hoover> But none of those contain carbon, so if you want any plastic components, you're screwed
22:55:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless there's a magic way of polymerising silicon compounds.
22:56:16 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Fusion and fission.
22:56:36 <alise> pikhq: Discuss how awesome Pixel Qi displays are.
22:56:46 <pikhq> But you asked *can* you synthesise them from slate.
22:56:52 <pikhq> And the answer is YES
22:57:18 <fizzie> pikhq: And thanks to homeopathic principles, even after fusion/fission it will retain the inherent essence of slate.
22:57:19 <Phantom_Hoover> And you can't fission Si into C, since Si is stable in all significant isotopes AFAIK.
22:57:25 <pikhq> alise: Awesome are.
22:57:33 <alise> pikhq: Therefore in Slate yes?
22:57:56 <fizzie> "Stable" just means "doesn't break unless you hit it", doesn't it?
22:58:11 <pikhq> alise: Yes, thus Slate in.
22:58:17 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it means that it's not going to decay no matter how long you wait.
22:58:36 <alise> pikhq: Good thing you're in charge of business deals! Get to it.
22:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> And bombarding Si with neutrons is almost certainly not going to give you C12.
22:59:36 <Phantom_Hoover> But anyway, there should be a bit of graphite around, so that's not the best example.
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23:00:45 <cpressey> trying to not actually be boring. time will tell
23:00:47 <Phantom_Hoover> But none of them contain copper, which is necessary-ish.
23:00:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Application of sufficient energy to an atom will knock off particles.
23:01:16 <pikhq> Granted, you need a particle accelerator to do this reliably.
23:02:13 <pikhq> Yes, but large amounts of minuscule quantities are large quantities.
23:02:43 <alise> No, large amounts of minuscule quantities are normal quantities.
23:03:51 <pikhq> Oh, mere application of neutrons will cause any atom to split. The fissile elements are merely those which sustain a chain reaction in doing so.
23:04:43 <alise> pikhq: HOW IS THE BUSINESS DEAL GOING
23:04:43 <pikhq> So: mix small pieces of slate into fuel rods, and then extract the carbon after using them!
23:04:51 <fizzie> Dump a large quantity of slate into a star scheduled to go supernova, then collect elements from the results? (Again according to the same homeopathic principles, everything that comes out will have the beneficial attributes of slate.)
23:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, how about this: I'll stop being sensible about science and you can not be sensible about business!
23:05:27 <pikhq> fizzie: Not going to work. We want lighter elements, not heavier.
23:05:56 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, our essential problem is fissioning atoms that are perfectly happy already
23:06:04 <pikhq> alise: We have arranged for a homeopathic screen.
23:06:23 <alise> pikhq: Good, good.
23:06:31 <fizzie> pikhq: I'm sure there's quite a lot of different elements in the remains of a star, you know. Isn't that pretty much how everything is made?
23:06:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You can fiss any atom with neutron bombardment. It's just that only a small handful can do a chain reaction.
23:06:33 <alise> pikhq: Do you make more of it out of plastic to get a higher resolution?
23:06:48 <pikhq> fizzie: And yes. As the fusion goes on longer, you get heavier and heavier elements.
23:07:00 <alise> "FUSion" -> "fuse"
23:07:04 <alise> "FISsion" -> "fise"
23:07:20 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: All necessary raw materials. From slate.
23:07:23 <alise> Fission is the result of the action "fise".
23:08:04 <pikhq> Oh, we'll get Cu. Even if we have to generate nothing but hydrogen then make a star.
23:08:54 <pikhq> No, but we have significant quantities of slate, and can bombard it with neutrons until it damned well is hydrogen.
23:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't it one of those ones that doesn't react enough to orify?
23:10:57 <pikhq> *Don't care. We will perform inefficient fission.*
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23:13:20 <alise> cpressey: You're the Anticonsultant Evil-Double-Antiness "Auntie" Consultant Consultant Consultant for Slate.
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23:15:08 <cpressey> alise: meaning: i know nothing. NOTHING, I TELL YOU!
23:15:27 <cpressey> whatever it is you are thinking, I DENY IT
23:26:40 <cpressey> i make a good anticonsultant, yes?
23:26:49 <oerjan> 15:07:00 <alise> "FUSion" -> "fuse"
23:26:50 <oerjan> 15:07:04 <alise> "FISsion" -> "fise"
23:26:50 <alise> cpressey: umm... mu
23:27:00 <alise> oerjan: that makes little sense, doesn't it :D
23:27:06 <oerjan> i don't think the latter is a word.
23:27:15 <alise> oerjan: there's no word for it, thus the need to derive one
23:27:17 <alise> is it fiss or fisse?
23:27:27 <oerjan> i've been pondering why not
23:27:49 <alise> Because you can just say "split"?
23:28:05 <oerjan> you can also say "join"
23:29:13 <oerjan> i guess mainly it's that _neither_ fusion nor fission are from verbs of the form that english can borrow automatically (they have consonant stems)
23:29:35 <oerjan> and it's only an accident that fuse got in
23:30:00 <oerjan> (this guess 1/4 baked)
23:31:12 <oerjan> while vowel stems get -ation -> -ate or -ition -> -ite in a regular manner
23:32:47 <oerjan> well regular except when they're not :)
23:33:04 <oerjan> (audit rather than audite, e.g.)
23:34:24 <cpressey> fuse means to merge together, right? so why is the purpose of a fuse to come apart?
23:35:02 * cpressey just confused himself into a corner
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00:01:04 <SgeoN1> Fuck fuck fuck fuck fco fuck fuck fuck fuck
00:02:15 <SgeoN1> I seem to have misplaced the wire for connecting the computer and my phone. This is the second time that that has happened. I have no way to charge my phone
00:04:54 <SgeoN1> Cancel that, I have a way to charge it
00:05:04 <SgeoN1> No phone to computer connection though
00:05:22 <SgeoN1> Which is killing me, ESP. With this broken comp
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00:07:20 <oerjan> <oerjan> SgeoN1: you appear to be cursed
00:07:55 <SgeoN1> http://i.imgur.com/6ifoU.jpg what happens when I select Ubuntu
00:10:42 <alise> SgeoN1: Put a fucking LiveCD in.
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00:13:38 <SgeoN1> I think this is some sort of karmic retribution for meeting a smart, attractive girl
00:14:06 <SgeoN1> Where it doesn't balance out good v bad
00:14:21 <SgeoN1> Just, good social v bad computer luck
00:17:06 <SgeoN1> Where the frack is my mouse?
00:20:26 <pikhq> Self-dispense wine tanks to come to American supermarkets. Wow. America figured out a way to be *less* classy.
00:20:43 <pikhq> http://consumerist.com/winetank.jpg Anticlass.
00:23:40 <alise> http://hipsterhitler.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/heilvetica.jpg
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00:33:29 <SgeoN2> Alise, dad said he's going to give me a CD. Any recommendations for what to burn?
00:34:02 <alise> Uh, Ubuntu should be fine.
00:34:19 <alise> If you don't want to download all that... dunno.
00:34:46 <alise> Ubuntu has the advantage of being a good thing to install after you recover any data :P
00:34:59 <alise> (Not the beta, though.)
00:37:23 <alise> presumably his romanisation
00:37:29 <alise> of the ... japisation
00:40:24 <alise> http://www.ubuntulinux.jp/
00:40:58 <alise> Someone set their browser to Japanese and go to ubuntu.com
00:41:23 <pikhq> That is astoundingly unshocking website design for a Japanese site.
00:41:43 <pikhq> (Japan has for the most part not grown beyond Geocities.)
00:41:58 <pikhq> (Geocities Japan, incidentally, is still around *and* used)
00:47:37 <SgeoN2> I suppose 8.10 is a bad idea
00:50:15 <SgeoN2> Will DSL have tools that I might want or need?
00:53:20 <SgeoN2> Also, ultimate boot CD has two things that look useful here
00:53:38 <SgeoN2> But I could presumably download tthose on anu distrp
00:54:53 <SgeoN2> I think ill try parted magic
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00:59:50 <oerjan> as opposed to rejoined magic
01:18:56 <pikhq> According to the DoD, protest is considered a form of terrorism.
01:19:51 <pikhq> And thus it is, in their mind, perfectly legal to torture protesters indefinitely.
01:35:01 <SgeoN2> Parted Magic came with Chromium
01:39:39 <alise> SgeoN2: use ubuntu.
01:39:45 <alise> parted magic is lacking.
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06:23:09 <__s> While writing patches for Python, it was made clear that code cache was rather valuable
06:23:35 <__s> This made me think of an interpreter with multiple interpreters, so that instructions used commonly together would remain close together in the code cache
06:23:57 <__s> The overhead is of course rather silly, so I didn't go about trying to work it into CPython
06:25:20 <__s> But it struck me that that thinking works in the case of Befunge. Quadrupled the size of the interpreter for up to a third improvement in speed. That was coupled today with shifting implementation dimensions to 80x32, which was of similar benefit
06:25:50 <__s> Though the latter didn't cause such bloat size wise
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06:42:39 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: 148-key MEGABOARD: http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/images/enhpc.gif <-- nice, just layout? or actually built?
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07:38:11 <GreaseMonkey> well, i'm pretty sure there is a real keyboard with ctrl + hyper + super
07:38:11 <Slereah> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg
07:38:39 <Slereah> I would just press the HYPER key until it broke
07:38:50 <Slereah> Press it until I get to the bonus round
07:39:09 <Slereah> Well, it's not exactly that keyboard
07:39:18 <Slereah> They're both LISP machines keyboards
07:40:25 <GreaseMonkey> "The previous keyboard illustration showed a basic set of keys that could fit on a normal PC keyboard, taking the same amount of space, even though moving the main area of the keyboard slightly to the right created space for a few additional keys. The emphasis was on showing how APL characters could be distributed."
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08:28:41 <Deewiant> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/Fungi
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08:37:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: You did notice the writer of that was here last night, right?
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09:00:06 <trinithis> fizzie: still here, but its now night for me, so im going to sleep
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11:09:37 <Deewiant> trinithis: Main.hs needs to export main for the thing to build
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14:37:14 <Vorpal> <Slereah> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg <-- that is a different one
14:38:06 <Vorpal> <Deewiant> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/Fungi <-- does it pass mycology?
14:38:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, any updates on jitfunge btw?
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15:08:50 <CPressey> olsner: You never did say if you wanted to use that awesome language name I gave you.
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15:15:50 <olsner> CPressey: I don't think I noticed
15:16:30 * olsner goes back to sorting laundry
15:16:42 <CPressey> "Jonguilexiphonaugh", if I recall correctly. For your hash-consing Haskell-esque language.
15:17:12 <olsner> ooh, I do like that name!
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15:30:42 <olsner> since I got home so ridiculously early I'd best get kraken on implementing this thing
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15:37:32 <alise> 23:37:49 <GreaseMonkey> i believe that is a real keyboard
15:37:36 <alise> no, just an amalgamation of all of them
15:38:44 <alise> olsner: you still haven't answered MY question
15:46:42 <alise> "Children Under Four and Children With Autism Don't Yawn Contagiously"
15:46:46 <alise> omg, that means i'm not autistic
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15:49:10 <nooga> http://www.ai-contest.com/problem_description.php
15:52:35 <oerjan> <alise> "Children Under Four and Children With Autism Don't Yawn Contagiously" <-- does that mean they don't yawn when others do, or that they don't cause others to yawn? :D
15:52:58 <alise> "I saw that too. Press releases are always overstating findings. So I looked at the paper.
15:52:58 <alise> Autistic yawners: 0 out of 15
15:52:58 <alise> Controls (various groups): between 23 and 43%
15:52:58 <alise> Soooo... for once the press release was conservative? Weird.
15:54:04 <Gregor> What kind of a test group is that
15:54:17 <alise> There isn't exactly an abundance of autistic children.
15:54:31 <alise> Whose parents will let them participate in experiments.
15:54:31 <Gregor> Fine fine, but 0 is probably within statistical error of 3.
15:54:43 <Gregor> And 3 is 23% (round down)
15:54:47 <alise> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2010.01495.x/abstract;jsessionid=6AC173A7C7EF450ADD604C9A39DFEA9D.d01t01
15:54:53 <alise> Maybe the quote was a misquote
15:54:55 <alise> (Or justified elsewhere)
15:55:04 <alise> English National Provision does not have a subscription to this Journal or Article. Please contact your librarian for details.
15:55:04 <Gregor> I've got other stuff to do :P
15:55:10 <alise> how did he read the paper fucking piece of
15:55:49 <oerjan> alise: he's probably a part of the conspiracy with secret privileges
15:56:04 <alise> http://www.srcd.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=899
15:56:05 <Gregor> I'll bet I have access through Purdue!
15:56:22 <Gregor> I'll bet I don't have access through Purdue!
15:56:24 * cpressey felt like yawning when he read that headline
15:56:35 <alise> cpressey: You're not autistic! Or under 4!
15:56:44 <cpressey> (not boring; i'm just very yawn-contagious, and kind of tired)
15:56:59 <cpressey> and apparently not autistic, yes
15:57:20 <alise> "Clapping is an arousing activity, and increased arousal is
15:57:20 <alise> associated with diminished yawning (Provine, 2005)."
15:57:25 <alise> [claps in front of children]
15:57:55 <alise> I love the double-spacing
15:58:02 <fizzie> Our university proxy gets that wiley.com PDF, at least.
15:58:37 <alise> Is it like a literal HTTP proxy?
15:59:21 <oerjan> very literal. no ability for metaphor at all.
15:59:28 <fizzie> It's a DNS hack; you just write ".libproxy.tkk.fi" after any hostname, log in on the login page, and it proxies stuff and rewrites links to include the added domain too.
15:59:55 <Gregor> Man, Purdue's proxy isn't anywhere near as pretty.
16:00:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:00:11 <fizzie> There's a literal HTTP proxy too, but that needs a SSH pipe, so it's not so comfortable for one-shot "I want this article" spur-of-the-monent sort of things.
16:01:54 <Gregor> Maybe I don't have access because Purdue doesn't have a medical school X-P
16:02:18 <alise> fizzie: So is it based on libproxy.so HUR HUR
16:02:21 <fizzie> We don't exactly have a medical school either, though there's some related fields.
16:02:35 <alise> I mean literal as opposed to its own web interface where you kludge in a URL and it spits out a cached version of the paper.
16:02:41 <alise> (Or downloads one.)
16:03:02 <fizzie> Oh, right. Then they're both literal. But the latter way is just the usual Squid, available from inside the campus network.
16:03:27 <fizzie> Actually "any hostname" up there is a bit of a simplification; I think they return an error page for any domains not on the list of places they actually have some sort of licensing dealie with.
16:03:52 <alise> Presumably not SO literal, if it bypasses login pages.
16:04:11 <alise> fizzie: slashdot.org.libproxy.tkk.fi
16:04:21 <alise> Ha, they use Shibboleth
16:04:37 <fizzie> The "bypass login pages" is, I think, a property of the other end's IP-based authentications.
16:05:40 <fizzie> Yeah, http://slashdot.org.libproxy.tkk.fi/ redirects (at least if you've logged in) into a "Remote Access Menu - Aalto University Library, Otaniemi" and a list of 137 websites, presumably places where using the proxy will actually achieve something.
16:06:01 <alise> Aw. But what about Ann. /..?
16:06:21 <alise> The premier journal on the topic of wasting time nerdily.
16:07:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you trying to get at academic papers that you haven't paid to see?
16:07:53 <alise> fizzie is paying for it with his taxes :P
16:08:00 <alise> I just got it elsewhere.
16:08:23 <fizzie> alise: The Wiley pdf is a bit more nicely formatted, but content-wise it seems very much the same. Also, the topic made me yawn.
16:11:09 <fizzie> This list of places to remotely access is interesting, though; I don't think I've ever actually looked at it.
16:11:46 <alise> xxxhothotbarelyleganteenresearchmathematics.org
16:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, I missed my chance to throw condoms at the pope.
16:14:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, at least each second that goes by takes him a little further away from me.
16:14:27 <oerjan> you win some, you lose some?
16:14:53 <olsner> alise: of course I haven't!
16:16:01 <olsner> turns out I know very little about implementing haskell-esque languages
16:17:06 <oerjan> olsner: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/slpj-book-1987/
16:17:25 <oerjan> (no i haven't read it myself, but apparently it's a classic)
16:17:55 <alise> it's spj, doesn't it become a classic by default?
16:18:40 <alise> The Implementation of Functional Programming Languages. Prentice-Hall, 1987. ISBN 0-13-453333-X
16:18:40 <alise> Implementing Functional Languages, with David Lester. Prentice-Hall, 1992. ISBN 0-13-721952-0
16:18:41 <alise> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/pj-lester-book/
16:18:47 <alise> This book gives a practical approach to understanding implementations of non-strict functional languages using lazy graph reduction. The book is intended to be a source of practical labwork material, to help make functional-language implementations `come alive', by helping the reader to develop, modify and experiment with some non-trivial compilers.
16:18:48 <alise> The unusual aspect of the book is that it is meant to be executed as well as read. Rather than merely presenting an abstract description of each implementation technique, we present the code for a complete working prototype of each major method, and then work through a series of improvements to it. All of the code is available in machine-readable form.
16:18:50 <alise> seems like good reading too
16:18:58 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Simon_Peyton_Jones_01.jpg SP FUCKING J
16:19:04 <alise> He stares into your soul.
16:19:22 <alise> FEEL HOW HE BLURS HIS REALITY
16:19:27 <alise> ONLY THE WINDOW CAN SAVE YOU
16:19:29 <alise> AND HE CONTROLS IT
16:19:35 <alise> HE FEEDS UPON YOU, MORTAL...
16:19:36 <Phantom_Hoover> MY GOD HE LOOKS LIKE DOCTOR WHO BUT A LITTLE BIT OLDER
16:19:40 <alise> ...AND HE TAKES YOUR LIFE AWAY
16:19:55 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Eleventh_Doctor.jpg → http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Simon_Peyton_Jones_01.jpg
16:20:11 <alise> spj would make a good doctor
16:21:13 <olsner> if doctor who actually existed, it would be like him take a break and just be SPJ for a few decades
16:22:01 <olsner> functional programming and time-travel do have many things in common, with all the non-temporal thinking involved
16:22:01 <alise> also, not under Tennant
16:22:19 <alise> "THE VERY FACT THAT I CANNOT SAVE EVERYONE EVER KILLS ME PSYCHOLOGICALLY ;___; OH GOD I AM SO AWFUL BECAUSE I SAVE THE UNIVERSE ON A REGULAR BASIS"
16:22:23 <alise> "I MUST BE STRONG :|"
16:22:25 <olsner> alise: yes, I thought I had that word in there, must've missed it
16:22:38 <alise> olsner: you could get rid of the who and insert the to
16:22:46 <olsner> maybe I only corrected my self in thought
16:23:07 <alise> *i've seen like three moffat episodes
16:23:10 <alise> and heard about the rest
16:23:16 <alise> and this is exactly what happens when a fanboy get si
16:23:20 <alise> *gets in charge :P
16:23:34 <alise> proliferation of canon! complete rethinking of EEEVERYTHIIING!
16:24:05 <alise> also, [insert ludicrous love interest]
16:24:26 <olsner> iiuc, the doctor who series never bothered with canon or continuity in general
16:24:36 <alise> oh well yes but the fans take care of that ...
16:24:45 <alise> ... and by proliferation of canon i just mean
16:24:49 <alise> insufficient mythos!
16:24:57 <oerjan> so inserting canon into a series that has none? :D
16:25:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, he did write good episodes, just not good story arcs.
16:26:22 <alise> <alise> also, not under Tennant
16:26:29 <alise> tennant was wonderful
16:27:01 * cpressey can't bear to watch anything past davison. sorry.
16:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Davison sucked at writing but was all right at story arcs. Moffat is kind of the opposite.
16:27:58 <alise> are you sure he didn't mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Doctor
16:28:20 <alise> as far as i know he didn't do any writing...
16:28:23 <cpressey> yes you might want to consider cpressey's age when making inferences
16:28:31 <alise> i have no idea who Phantom_Hoover thinks davison is
16:28:38 <alise> cpressey: we don't /actually know/ your age, though
16:29:17 <olsner> damned be the first syllable
16:29:21 <alise> the only thing anyone can agree about doctor who is that the theme music rocks
16:29:23 <alise> maybe not the latest one
16:29:29 <alise> it didn't need to turn techno
16:31:06 <alise> i mean the music itself
16:31:09 <alise> not the specific arrangement
16:31:23 <alise> http://whomix.windbubbles.net/
16:32:41 <alise> (http://whomix.windbubbles.net/remixes)
16:33:15 <oerjan> alise: he's either nearly 4 or nearly 40, recent evidence is ambiguous on this point
16:33:26 <alise> maybe the 0 was a typo
16:34:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: buy low! sell high!
16:34:15 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: never eat yellow snow
16:34:53 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: #esoteric is not a dating site!
16:34:58 <Phantom_Hoover> And it was for his BBS, so he must have been in his late teens at the very least.
16:35:01 <cpressey> oerjan: i think these are more like 'advice' than 'recommendations' though
16:35:24 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You'd need an ELABORATE PLAN for getting the sample in that case.
16:35:46 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> His first language was '93, so that helps date him.
16:35:50 <alise> his first /popular esolang/
16:35:59 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> And it was for his BBS, so he must have been in his late teens at the very least.
16:36:01 <alise> sure it was /his/ BBS?
16:37:03 <oerjan> there you go verbing again
16:37:17 <alise> "my country", I don't own England
16:37:38 <olsner> but that still makes it "his country" when talking about alise in the third person
16:37:53 <cpressey> and to make matters worse I actually had two BBSes. not at the same time though.
16:38:39 <alise> olsner: true, but.
16:38:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 47
16:39:26 <alise> cpressey: Correct me, dammit!
16:39:28 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: teenager in 1993 should suffice for any estimate
16:39:54 <cpressey> Therefore, "Davison" refers to the 5th doctor, yes.
16:40:02 <olsner> then you'd be at most 13 years older than me
16:41:06 <alise> and -13 years older than oerjan
16:41:45 <olsner> woah, how old is oerjan then?
16:42:06 * oerjan waves his cane at olsner
16:42:51 <alise> so cpressey is between 30 and 36
16:42:56 <alise> more likely on the side of 36
16:43:03 <alise> also i am behind him right now with a knife
16:43:35 <oerjan> depends how far behind
16:44:00 <oerjan> i mean _technically_ if you're currently facing westward...
16:45:46 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: I'm behind you, you can have my spare knife if you want
16:45:53 <cpressey> I'm in a swivelly chair. I could just spin and in the space of a few seconds everyone on this channel will have been behind me at some time today.
16:46:41 <cpressey> but my earbud cord, plugged into my desktop, would strangle me
16:47:02 <olsner> we can't allow that! our knives are useless if you're already dead!
16:49:19 -!- quintipod has joined.
16:49:20 <oerjan> cpressey: you're forgetting the antipodes!
16:49:44 <oerjan> of course you just need to lay down a bit
16:50:29 <quintipod> Man I didn't know an esoteric PL chan existed. Just randomly found it...
16:50:57 <quintipod> Hello. I'm quintopia on the esolang wiki if that rings anyone's bell
16:52:17 <oerjan> quintipod: wait you never read the Community page before? ;D
16:53:02 <quintipod> Mostly just surf the recent changes page
16:53:04 * oerjan puts on a mustache and goggles
16:53:07 <fizzie> oerjan is a very recognizable shape.
16:53:09 <olsner> I wonder how I found this channel
16:53:33 <olsner> I do know I found it *twice* though, and managed to completely forget about it in between
16:53:40 <oerjan> quintipod: well me too
16:53:42 <quintipod> I saw it in the channel list searching for the kubuntu netbook channel whose name i can't remember
16:54:00 <fizzie> I found it via the mailing list, as did I guess some others.
16:54:40 <quintipod> Mailing list? That at all interesting?
16:55:31 <fizzie> The one that was on (at least) sange.fi, or whatever.
16:56:05 <oerjan> back in '02, it was all the rage
16:56:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, Darths & Droids is really drifting from the SW canon.
16:56:56 <alise> "Flash Player to support 64-bit for all major desktop operating systems including Linux"
16:57:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: "is drifting"? you seem to think it was ever close...
16:57:38 <alise> oerjan: ON PAGE #0 IT WAS CONSISTENT WITH EVEN THE EXTENDED UNIVERSE
16:57:50 <alise> (NOTE: THE EXTENDED UNIVERSE IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH MOST THINGS, INCLUDING PHYSICS, LOGIC AND THE EXTENDED UNIVERSE)
16:58:11 <olsner> alise: is that announced before or after they completely dropped 64-bit support+
16:58:23 <alise> olsner: i hope after, or reddit is going to be stabbed
16:58:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: btw the valorum link was predicted before on the forums. although the comic _did_ leave some huge hints back then
16:58:34 <alise> http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplayer/2010/09/flash-player-square.html
16:59:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: just look carefully at valorum's deranged speech in the senate, his obsession with cyborgs in particular
17:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> The Comic Irregulars are clearly evil masterminds trying to take over the world!
17:00:51 <oerjan> er that was not to quintipod
17:01:05 * oerjan is blessed with the inability to notice fonts
17:01:15 <cpressey> quintipod: as you can see we talk about nothing except esolangs here
17:01:17 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> My god what is the original trilogy going to be like. ;; maybe it'll diverge completely
17:01:20 <oerjan> well without trying, anyway
17:01:22 <alise> (note: i don't follow the comic)
17:01:38 <cpressey> this is all about an elaborate esolang based on a star wars comic
17:01:39 <olsner> oerjan: when in doubt, use Comic Sans
17:01:56 <alise> oerjan: Phantom_Hoover: well i am just starting to read it right now :P
17:01:58 <quintipod> That is a blessing indeed oerjan. They are heart-piercingly many occurrences of papyrus everywhere these days
17:02:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly the baking system trains it to overthrow its human masters.
17:02:13 <alise> And yeah, fucking Egyptians.
17:02:37 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, if I tell you who invented Papyrus, will you murder him painfully?
17:02:45 <alise> "The Force is an energy field—" "Energy? But energy is force times distance." "And 'power of the force' would be distance times the derivative with respect to time."
17:02:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Probably. Even Comic Sans MS has justificationl.
17:03:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Papyrus is one of those novelty fonts that irritating, tasteless fools with pretensions towards graphic design keep on using because they think it makes them stand out.
17:04:21 <quintipod> I've seen exactly one good use of it in a logo
17:04:23 <alise> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=07052007
17:04:30 <alise> s/Comic Sans/Papyrus/
17:06:05 <quintipod> Well, I think it can be forgiven when used /in comics/
17:06:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Papyrus was just like all of the other things intended harmless wihc went horribly wrong.
17:06:24 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the baking system is rather broken because the hall of fame has a quorum threshold that is much higher than the number of people actually voting
17:06:34 <oerjan> it wasn't so initially of course
17:06:47 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:06:49 -!- tombom has joined.
17:06:52 <oerjan> although occasionally a batch still trickle through
17:07:13 <quintipod> Phantom_Hoover: I want a shirt that says that. In comic sans?
17:07:57 <quintipod> Would making it in comic sans be too ironic to be ironic?
17:08:05 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Comic Sans is the Cardinal Sin of typography.
17:08:11 <alise> in comicy stuff it's ok
17:08:13 <alise> just not very good
17:08:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Erm... Luxi Mono is nice. Emacs renders it badly (too bold).
17:08:58 <alise> Emacs may be partially culpable.
17:09:09 <alise> Monaco on Linux lacks bold, damn fondu. Otherwise it's nice.
17:09:14 <alise> Might be a different file, actually. One I don't have.
17:09:28 <alise> Droid Sans Mono is... very close to DejaVu.
17:09:42 <alise> (So is Menlo, barely-modified from Bitstream, which DejaVu extends.)
17:10:00 <alise> http://www.leancrew.com/all-this/images/dejavu-menlo-colors.png How they differ.
17:10:26 <fizzie> I do Droid Sans Mono on the phone, even though it's not a Droid.
17:10:28 <alise> '(default ((t (:family "DejaVu Sans Mono" :height 105)))))
17:10:28 <alise> (setq-default line-spacing 0.125)
17:10:41 <alise> fizzie: Droid * are just Android
17:10:47 <alise> it's the Droid that co-opted the name for its phone model
17:10:49 <fizzie> Well, it's not Android either.
17:10:56 <alise> Droid is a font family created by Ascender Corporation for use by the Open Handset Alliance platform Android[1] and licensed under the Apache license. The fonts are intended for use on the small screens of mobile handsets and were designed by Steve Matteson of Ascender Corporation. The name was derived from the Open Handset Alliance platform name Android.
17:11:09 <fizzie> (The phone, I mean; the fonts of course are.)
17:11:11 <alise> fizzie: Many Linux users use Droid Sans as an OS font.
17:11:20 <alise> Especially Ubuntuers.
17:11:25 <Vorpal> Deewiant, heads up on efunge: to make it compile with last version of erlang (released yesterday) an unintended side effect is that the trunk and supervisor-tree heads no longer compiles on older versions.
17:11:42 <alise> Hmm, or perhaps Menlo is based on DejaVu.
17:11:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Ubuntuers are not the brightest bunch, by and large.
17:12:02 <alise> "I just broke this program for everybody who hasn't manually installed Erlang (or perhaps uses Arch or Gentoo) since yesterday."
17:12:06 <fizzie> alise: I would've thought it had some sort of inherent phoneyness designed by science of bubbly liquids, so that it only works properly in a mobile device.
17:12:14 <Vorpal> alise, my fault for using a somewhat experimental feature that changed syntax slightly
17:12:17 <alise> fizzie: Yes. But no!
17:12:24 <Vorpal> alise, anyway arch doesn't have the new version yet
17:12:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, indeed. There are some very bright Ubuntuers, though.
17:12:40 <alise> I'd like to think I'm among them.
17:12:44 <alise> Droid Sans /is/ nice as an OS font.
17:12:56 <alise> I just don't have any preference for it over DejaVu, so I stick with the default.
17:13:04 <alise> *Ubuntuers too, though.
17:13:26 <Vorpal> alise, and um, it stopped working for me. As I upgraded. I was aware of this issue due to testing beta version before. Didn't change the code then of course.
17:13:39 <quintipod> So alise is the resident wording corrector. Got it
17:14:00 <alise> quintipod: I corrected my own lines there.
17:14:16 <alise> I tend to be a bit anal about that. I don't like myself for doing it.
17:14:52 <quintipod> Well, Your setence made since with or without the too, so it seemed rather anal to want to add it in
17:15:17 <alise> "Ubuntuers are not the brightest bunch [...]." "There are some very bright Ubuntuers, though."
17:15:28 <fizzie> Is there not a better noun for a Ubuntu user, though? Ubuntists? Ubuntites? Ubunopods? Ubuttantes?
17:15:29 <alise> It seems to flow a bit better with the "too".
17:15:48 <alise> quintipod: Would saying "*Well, your" right now be hilariously ironic or just irritating?
17:16:19 <alise> Quadrescence: *Well, your *I'd
17:16:35 <alise> Technically I don't care about not using capitalisation since I omit it regularly. :P
17:16:42 <oerjan> quintipod: _everyone_ here is a resident wording corrector
17:16:45 <alise> But officially I have to correct.
17:16:49 <quintipod> I omit capitalization intentionally
17:16:55 <alise> Quadrescence: Was "Your" intentional?
17:16:59 <alise> Also, oerjan is the resident punner.
17:17:01 <quintipod> And punctuation where its unambiguous
17:17:04 <alise> Nobody else may pun. Unless it's actually god.
17:17:08 <alise> In which case, it is permissable.
17:17:14 <alise> oerjan has a state-sanctioned monopoly on bad puns.
17:18:01 <quintipod> alise: also please stop calling me Quadrescence
17:18:15 <alise> Oops. Now I've pinged the beast...
17:18:25 -!- alise has left (?).
17:18:27 -!- alise has joined.
17:18:33 <alise> -- I was being oh so careful, too.
17:19:12 <quintipod> alise: you forgot to correct my "since" to "sense" above
17:19:35 <alise> *THX sound systems
17:19:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Good idea.
17:20:04 <alise> I'll also set up a word-replace of he-who-cannot-be-named to quintipod, on the assumption that the latter will hopefully be around more than the former.
17:20:10 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: a fly swatter
17:20:16 <alise> quintipod: I think I've even corrected logs I was reading, too.
17:20:33 <alise> (Log-reading is a favourite past-time of the hopelessly destroyed here: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D)
17:20:41 <alise> (Pick one. Preferably a big one. You may wish to order by size.)
17:23:05 <alise> quintipod: you'd be surprised how quick the time goes
17:23:25 <alise> hmm i should plot the size of the logs, that'd be interesting, to see what distribution it follows
17:23:29 <alise> plot them after sorting, that is
17:24:06 <oerjan> ^ul ((Time for newbie bot demonstrations)!:aS):^
17:24:07 <fungot> ((Time for newbie bot demonstrations)!:aS)
17:24:08 <Vorpal> alise, btw, wrt efunge, I don't see the problem since it had not yet had a stable release. Though trunk could I think.
17:24:17 <alise> 2009-05-28: the day of bf joust
17:24:28 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:24:33 <oerjan> ^ul ((Time for newbie bot demonstrations)!S(:^)aS):^
17:24:33 <fungot> (Time for newbie bot demonstrations)!S(:^)aS(:^)
17:24:34 <alise> fungot: Tell us about how you're written in Befunge-98.
17:24:34 <fungot> alise: enter fluellen and gower.
17:24:38 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss* wp youtube
17:24:39 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
17:24:41 <alise> fungot: Tell us about how you're written in Befunge-98.
17:24:41 <fungot> alise: by fnord, which guarantees practically infinite energy for free
17:24:49 <alise> quintipod: http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 is the code.
17:24:50 <fungot> alise: so, let's say i call the time spent in those discussions. having been involved in a large program?
17:24:53 <Vorpal> <alise> plot them after sorting, that is <-- sorting by date or sorting by size?
17:24:55 <oerjan> ...i'm just not doing this right
17:25:06 <alise> Also, it's generating those lines from a Markov chain-type dealie. In Befunge.
17:25:11 <alise> to look at the curve
17:25:42 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
17:25:44 <oerjan> ^ul ((Time for newbie bot demonstrations)!a(:^)*S):^
17:25:45 <fungot> ((Time for newbie bot demonstrations)!a(:^)*S):^
17:25:53 <Vorpal> alise, ah. the other could be interesting too. If you use an averaging function with a window you could use it to find the activity over the year
17:26:34 <alise> Vorpal: i did unicode-plot (with the block characters) various lengths (it squishes the data by calculating the mean of successive values) of charts of sizes
17:26:38 <alise> and it basically just got bigger
17:26:48 <alise> basically activity has never dropped significantly in our history
17:26:57 <alise> and lament has been saying we're dying at every point in that climb :)
17:27:21 <Vorpal> alise, I seem to remember that there is some seasonal variation though
17:27:29 <Vorpal> as well as weekday variation
17:29:28 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test8.png -- I think this was some sort of a long-term activity plot, though it doesn't got any axis labels in it. And it's outdated now. I'll see if I can manage to get some new plots going.
17:29:56 <fizzie> (Also the zero-activity periods are times when I've been elsewhere; these are from my personal logs, not clog logs.)
17:30:20 <alise> i want a css-selector thing combined with grep/awk on the commandline
17:30:33 <alise> $ scrape http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=S;O=D 'td[align=right]'
17:30:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
17:30:36 <alise> and it'd spit out all the sizes
17:30:44 <alise> well i don't need the grep/awk thing i guess that can be a separate element of the pipe
17:31:22 <alise> curl http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=S;O=D | sed 's!.*<td align="right">\(.*\)</td></tr>!\1!'
17:31:24 <alise> why the heck doesn't this work?
17:31:31 <alise> they're all one one line
17:32:02 <quintipod> I shall add this thing to autojoin when I bother to log in from an actual computer. Right now, it's definitely naptiem.
17:32:15 -!- quintipod has quit (Quit: Busy busy busy).
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17:46:40 <alise> "Deprecated since version 2.7: The optparse module is deprecated and will not be developed further; development will continue with the argparse module."
17:46:54 <alise> Fuck that shit, I'm on 2.6.
17:47:28 <alise> Actually, wait, I don't even want it.
17:49:04 <olsner> alise: and optparse was (iirc) introduced in 2.6 deprecating the one they had in 2.5
17:50:11 <olsner> it's not like they got it right first, or at least wrong only once... noooo no, thinking and python obviously don't go that well together
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17:57:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose that means we're neither in NATO nor the Warsaw pact.
18:08:13 <Vorpal> gah, the university proxy for databases is slow today...
18:08:20 <Vorpal> takes ages to load anything from ACM
18:08:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "There's a broader point here. Why the big push for black holes by liberals, and big protests against any objection to them? If it turned out empirically that promoting black holes tends to cause people to read the Bible less, would you still push this so much?" — Andrew Schlafly, teacher of children.
18:10:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is so much nonsense that I can't even figure out what he is arguing for.
18:10:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, who is he talking to then
18:12:39 <alise> scrape(1) is now functioning quite well!
18:12:50 <Vorpal> alise, what does it do?
18:12:53 <alise> $ scrape 'http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=S;O=D' -text 'td[align=right]:nth-child(even)'
18:13:09 <alise> Vorpal: Selects elements from webpages and outputs them in various forms, using either CSS selectors or XPath.
18:13:49 <alise> Various switches control the behaviour of the next selector: -content elides the opening and closing tags of your selection, -text flattens it into a markupless text format, and -xpath interprets the next selector as XPath, not CSS.
18:13:57 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
18:14:07 <Vorpal> alise, xpath is quite "eugh" IMO
18:14:16 <alise> which is why css is the default :)
18:14:48 <alise> tail -n +1 doesn't work...
18:14:53 <alise> what am i forgetting...
18:14:55 -!- Flonk has joined.
18:15:08 <Vorpal> alise, why the + there
18:15:10 <alise> If the first character of N (the number of bytes or lines) is a `+',
18:15:10 <alise> print beginning with the Nth item from the start of each file, other‐
18:15:10 <alise> wise, print the last N items in the file. N may have a multiplier suf‐
18:15:10 <alise> fix: b 512, kB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, GB
18:15:10 <alise> 1000*1000*1000, G 1024*1024*1024, and so on for T, P, E, Z, Y.
18:15:11 -!- FireFly has joined.
18:15:26 <alise> perhaps it has to be +2
18:15:44 <Vorpal> alise, why does it have to be +2 ?
18:15:53 <alise> [[sed 's/K/*1024/']]
18:16:02 <alise> Vorpal: to start with line 2
18:16:04 <alise> i.e. drop the first line
18:16:15 <alise> (which is /another/ evenly-numbered right-aligned td in this case)
18:16:27 <Vorpal> alise, <alise> [[sed 's/K/*1024/']] <-- ?
18:16:33 <alise> Vorpal: for parsing filenames :)
18:16:57 <alise> it has byte ones like
18:17:05 <alise> and i'm trying to plot them, so...
18:17:11 <Vorpal> alise, which commands give you that
18:18:38 <alise> how did decimals get in there
18:18:45 <Vorpal> alise, in the source or?
18:19:02 <Vorpal> alise, it is of course rounded
18:19:09 <Vorpal> alise, just du -b the files locally
18:19:14 <alise> 1.8*1024 -> 1843.2
18:19:16 <Vorpal> for more exact measurement
18:19:17 <alise> Vorpal: well that's the OBVIOUS thing
18:19:23 <alise> but this is an excuse to write scrape
18:19:26 <alise> but yeah touche just thought of that
18:19:29 <alise> now i'll go do that
18:19:38 <alise> du takes filesystem shit into account
18:19:50 <Vorpal> though, -b is probably GNU
18:20:30 <alise> head -n -1 is useful too
18:20:36 <alise> e.g. total line of wc
18:20:56 <Vorpal> alise, you could plot on number of lines per day as well. And probably average length for each day
18:21:05 <Vorpal> have our average lengths gotten shorter or longer?
18:21:10 <Vorpal> Or stayed pretty much the same?
18:21:16 <alise> since i plotted a compressed graph
18:21:18 <alise> and it just goes up and up
18:21:24 <alise> (with only 8 graph characters admittedly
18:21:29 <Vorpal> alise, that could be due to more lines
18:21:31 <alise> and i think there were one or two very slight drops
18:21:32 <Vorpal> rather than longer lines
18:21:40 <alise> maybe, i doubt it though
18:21:40 <cpressey> and we just keep talking and talking
18:21:46 <Vorpal> cpressey, and that too
18:22:12 <Vorpal> alise, what about seasonal variation?
18:23:14 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I recommend seasonal variation.
18:23:19 <alise> Vorpal: hey how do you plot a list of numbers from stdin with gnuplot again :D
18:23:43 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: in unchanging things.
18:23:51 <Vorpal> alise, I ask fizzie :P
18:24:15 <Vorpal> alise, besides in my case I had it in a file, and just loaded that
18:24:32 <alise> Vorpal: what did you do? I'll just replace it with /dev/stdin
18:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, that was one of the predictions of the æther theory, so...
18:24:44 <Vorpal> alise, that had multiple time series and such though
18:24:50 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: yes. seasonal variation in the error messages produced by its compilers. yes. i'd advocate that
18:24:53 <Vorpal> alise, let me dig it up
18:25:25 <alise> cpressey: SON OF UNBABTIZED
18:25:30 <Vorpal> plot 'data-avg.txt' using 1:2 title "Real", 'data-avg.txt' using 1:3 title "User", 'data-avg.txt' using 1:4 title "Sys"
18:25:52 <fizzie> There's a special datafile "-" which means "data follows this plot command", if you want to pipe both the plotting command and data to gnuplot using the same pipe.
18:26:07 <Vorpal> alise, plus some stuff before like "set title" and "set style"
18:26:18 <fizzie> Then you end with a line that starts with "e"; it's pretty arbitrary.
18:26:51 <alise> plot "sizes" plots it as a scatter
18:26:54 <alise> not terribly helpful
18:27:00 <Vorpal> set style data linespoints
18:27:06 <Vorpal> alise, try to run that before
18:27:16 <fizzie> You can stick the style in the plot command, too: "with linespoints".
18:27:20 <alise> that's hideously ugly, how can i get a single joined line?
18:27:36 <alise> it's so raggedy :(
18:27:41 <alise> there's one that shoots right up
18:27:41 <Vorpal> alise, yeah with that many datapoints it won't look good.
18:27:43 <alise> but i have them sort-
18:27:48 <alise> i don't have them sorted :)
18:27:56 <alise> Vorpal: can it automatically average a bit?
18:28:05 <Vorpal> alise, for a single x value yes
18:28:08 <fizzie> It can do spline smoothing if you want.
18:28:22 <alise> Okay, it is now more reasonable.
18:28:38 <alise> Time to figure out what curve it is.
18:28:53 <alise> Looks like long tail.
18:28:58 <alise> With a not-terribly-high peak.
18:29:26 <Vorpal> cpressey, if I got a sine curve after *sorting* data I would be worried
18:29:28 <fizzie> You can add "smooth csplines/acsplines/bezier/sbezier" for different sorts of curve-fit-smoothing.
18:29:31 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, for a single x value yes
18:29:31 <alise> <fizzie> It can do spline smoothing if you want.
18:29:34 <alise> single x value; how?
18:29:58 <alise> fizzie: any options to tweak for those?
18:29:59 <Vorpal> alise, I forgot, since I needed the line points thingy and the smoothing didn't work with that style
18:30:01 <fizzie> The "single x value" was "average many entries for a single x value"; for that you just specify "unique" in the plot.
18:30:07 <Vorpal> so I ended up not using it
18:30:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, "with smoothing unique" or such iirc?
18:30:28 <alise> fizzie: erm, any way to set how many to average at a time?
18:30:36 <alise> Can't calculate approximation splines, all weights have to be > 0
18:30:58 <Vorpal> alise, you forgot to give weights I presume?
18:31:01 <fizzie> alise: For "unique", it will always average all that have the same X value, you can't tweak that.
18:31:28 <alise> fizzie: No change.
18:31:44 <fizzie> Do you have points with the same X value there, then?
18:32:23 <alise> it's just a plaintext file with a bunch of numbers
18:32:25 <Vorpal> then you need some other smoothing function
18:32:32 <alise> the size distribution is kind of fun
18:32:40 <Vorpal> alise, can you upload that image somewhere
18:32:56 <Vorpal> alise, well same works for png iirc
18:33:10 <alise> 1st = 1.7 * 2nd. then a bunch of almost equal ones
18:33:18 <fizzie> For general sort of averaging, you might be able to round the X values to particular steps with a suitable "using" spec, and then run "unique" on it.
18:33:20 <alise> then a steady decline from 200s into 100s
18:33:22 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I meant the size distribution
18:33:25 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm adapting those old testN.png log-activity plot scripts to my current "logs in a database" scheme; soon we'll get those updated too.
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18:33:42 <alise> actually it's pretty much a steady decline all the way through
18:33:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, which db engine?
18:33:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: PostgreSQL, since I had that installed anyway.
18:34:01 <Vorpal> alise, for the activity? Or what?
18:34:02 <alise> because of these two lines
18:34:02 <alise> 07:04:30 <ZeroOne> hi
18:34:02 <alise> 17:53:19 <lament> hi
18:34:08 <alise> if only someone with the nick "a" just said "a" on one day
18:34:25 <alise> that'd be 15-16 added bytes instead
18:34:30 <alise> Vorpal: for file size
18:34:32 <alise> when ordered by size
18:34:40 <alise> i.e. there's no particular distribution
18:34:45 <alise> 100s are the most common
18:34:50 <alise> only one above 250 or so
18:34:54 <alise> and then it's just a steady decline
18:35:09 <alise> (in weight in paper)
18:35:16 <Vorpal> alise, which one was above 250?
18:35:21 <Vorpal> alise, one with spam or such?
18:35:47 <alise> second-top is 250K
18:35:56 <alise> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=S;O=D
18:36:50 <fizzie> "Use of uninitialized value in subroutine entry at ./log-activity.pl line 211." Hmm.
18:36:55 -!- alise has left (?).
18:36:58 -!- alise has joined.
18:37:25 <Vorpal> alise, hm, can't you lock a channel in your client
18:37:33 <Vorpal> as a "no part unless I first unlock it"
18:37:43 <alise> 03:14:52 <GregorR> WTF COMMERCIAL!! Why is there a commercial for Emerald Nuts that implies a grizzly death of the three main characters shortly after the commercial ends >_<
18:37:46 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UQxN5HW1PU
18:37:53 <alise> Vorpal: i just keep hitting part by mistake
18:37:56 <alise> i don't really care
18:38:06 <Vorpal> alise, part is a button?
18:38:12 <alise> at the right of the tablist...
18:38:21 <alise> this is just xchat
18:38:26 <Vorpal> alise, well /part is not so easy to do by mistake
18:38:53 <alise> http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/code/eso/bef/chess/
18:38:57 <alise> from the second-highest log
18:39:05 <alise> befunge-93 chess program with AI
18:39:15 <alise> no castling or en passant, you can cheat, no checkmate processing
18:39:20 <alise> hangs on stalemate
18:39:30 <alise> it's chess-with-AI in befunge-93
18:39:34 <Vorpal> <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UQxN5HW1PU <-- safe for mind and so on?
18:39:53 <alise> boursin is a soft cheese
18:39:55 <alise> if you didn't know
18:40:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, why did you go !_! at that?
18:40:19 <Vorpal> alise, I can't say I knew that, no
18:40:31 <Vorpal> alise, but primarily I meant ads can be bloody strange
18:40:40 <alise> it's just hilarious
18:40:46 <Vorpal> alise, I'm not sure I consider that VW "pimp your ride" safe for mind for example
18:40:54 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test10.png -- okay, here's average per-week activity (measured in line counts), plotted with a starting time step of one day/pixel, from 2003-01-01 to 2010-08-31, with the top 8 noisiest people highlighted. I should probably map some nick-changes away from that.
18:41:28 <alise> ehird->alise, definitely
18:41:32 <fizzie> There's the ehird/alise/tusho trinity, and AnMaster.
18:41:44 <alise> ha ha vorpal isn't even on it
18:41:55 <alise> ehird, alise, tusho: the father, the spirit and the holy ghost
18:42:21 <alise> fizzie: pikhq/oklopol too
18:42:22 <Vorpal> <fizzie> There's the ehird/alise/tusho trinity, and AnMaster. <-- should be merged into Vorpal
18:42:29 <alise> Vorpal: what, all of them? :D
18:42:45 <Vorpal> alise, yes of course. I will assimilate you all!
18:42:46 <alise> We are Borg. Resistance is futile.
18:42:52 <alise> typed it before you did
18:42:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, I'm replotting it with ehird → alise, tusho → alise, AnMaster → Vorpal mappings.
18:42:54 <Vorpal> alise, hah beat you to it
18:42:59 <Vorpal> alise, I sent it before you did
18:43:03 <alise> Vorpal: i was typing it when your message arrived
18:43:13 <alise> it's merely a hivemind incident
18:43:22 <Vorpal> alise, you think I typed it after I send it!?
18:43:29 <Vorpal> that would be a good trick
18:43:33 <alise> i was typing mine when yours arrived
18:43:37 <cpressey> what accts for the big spike? seems like there might have been a talkative other
18:43:55 <alise> cpressey: bf joust
18:43:58 <Vorpal> alise, implying that I typed it before, since obviously I couldn't type it after I sent it
18:44:03 <fizzie> I should perhaps average a bit more than with a (Hamming-weighted) window of 7 days; there's the weekend/weekday differences that doesn't gloss over, which makes for a peaky graph.
18:44:08 <alise> network lag means i didn't see it
18:44:11 <alise> until i was typing mine already
18:44:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://zem.fi/~fis/test10b.png -- fixed nickname mappings, with fabulous results: I got myself on the chart too.
18:45:32 <alise> hahaha i still dominate bitches
18:45:39 <alise> fizzie: it seemed squished horizontally
18:45:54 <alise> fizzie: what the fuck, i'm there even in 2003 :D
18:46:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, a suggestion is to add some scale?
18:46:04 <alise> I HAVE ALWAYS EXISTED
18:46:09 <alise> AND WILL ALWAYS DOMINATE
18:46:23 <Vorpal> the red line must be an artifact over there
18:46:32 <alise> IT IS MY UNDYING PRESENCE
18:46:37 <alise> I am there even when there are no other colours
18:46:44 <fizzie> Yes, it plots all 8 lines throughout the whole plot. And I think the scale was suggested earlier too.
18:46:47 <alise> (Probably it layers all lines with height 0 on top of each other, and luck happens to be...)
18:46:51 <alise> I like it, don't change it :P
18:46:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, a higher graph or perhaps a log scale might be more useful to see anything useful in the less peaky regions
18:47:09 <alise> fizzie: Anyway yeah, give us a less-horizontally-stretched, generally-higher-resolution version :D
18:47:31 <alise> i love how a lot of the time i talk more than *everyone not on the chart combined*
18:47:35 <fizzie> alise: I can add more horizontal pixels if you want, or just make the graph less tall to make it less stretchedy.
18:47:37 <Vorpal> alise, you mean less horizontally compressed!
18:48:19 <fizzie> Alternatively, I can make it average over more than 7 days so that it won't be so peaky, if you want just general overall activities.
18:48:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about that "average over hour of activity" graph? I seem to remember it showed I had never spoken during some hours
18:48:29 <Vorpal> wonder if that is still the case
18:48:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm trying to retrofit that script at the moment.
18:49:07 <alise> fizzie: Widen it so it's less stretched horizontally, then just make both dimensions bigger from that.
18:49:10 <alise> For more clarity. :P
18:49:22 <fizzie> But then the picture will be huge!
18:49:37 <cpressey> also make it update in realtime
18:49:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, it isn't huge until it is like my 360° panos
18:53:35 <alise> fizzie: Size matters!
18:53:35 <cpressey> (like http://www.vidarholen.net/contents/wordcount/ )
18:53:35 <Vorpal> cpressey, if you write the function that maps the irc logs to swearing index
18:54:51 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh I interpreted it as you meant "every swearword" and thought you joked (since that would require understanding the context, "fuck" might not be swearing in some specific contexts)
18:55:38 <alise> fuck is always swearing
18:55:40 <alise> it's just not always cursing
18:55:52 <alise> I love how "penguin" is a swear word.
18:55:52 <Phantom_Hoover> We must conspire to have "Fuck this shit bastard penguin's crap." inserted into the kernel source.
18:55:56 <olsner> alise: what's the difference?
18:56:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i think there's a fetish for that
18:56:16 <alise> olsner: cursing is saying "Fuck!", "Fuck this shit!"
18:56:30 <alise> just swearing would be, uh, "So then I fucked the antelope!"
18:56:41 <alise> this may be my own idiosyncratic definition, but i don't think so
18:56:49 <olsner> no, fucking an antelope is just beastiality
18:57:04 <Vorpal> alise, crap could be a typo for carp for example?
18:57:38 <olsner> ... but still a bit fishy
18:58:04 <Vorpal> olsner, hey leave that to oerjan.
18:58:36 <alise> Vorpal: that's like saying someone who accidentally says nigger didn't actually say nigger
18:58:46 <alise> "Oh, that nigger -- er, black person, is really... successful."
18:58:48 <alise> he said nigger obvs
18:59:12 <Vorpal> alise, also on that page: A little about the counting method used: A word is counted if it appears in any context, even if part of another word (such as love in rollover, which was why this word wasn't included. It was a funny story about horrible awk memory leaks using regexp). It's not grep -c, multiple words on one line may be counted.
18:59:18 <fizzie> "Use of uninitialized value $body in length at ./log-activity-times.pl line 114." -- that also doesn't sound good.
18:59:29 <Vorpal> alise, and that is much less exact
18:59:31 <alise> fizzie: Do you plot it manually?
18:59:53 <fizzie> I do everything (related to these plots) with Perl.
19:00:08 <fizzie> Pictures come from GD and so on. The horrible.
19:00:14 <fizzie> Should really clean this stuff up at some point.
19:00:53 <fizzie> I wonder why this per-time-of-day thing is taking a lot more time to run, though.
19:01:05 <Vorpal> from /usr/share/dict/words scrap (and similar words like scraps, scraped and so on) and skyscraper are example of words containing "crap"
19:01:18 <Vorpal> I can't imagine the latter being likely in the kernel source
19:01:50 <Vorpal> alise, also abbrevs and so on, it doesn't seem like that thing checks comments only
19:02:10 <Vorpal> alise, so non-words containing those letters might occur
19:03:17 <fizzie> Whoops, I was using year:month:day in place of hour:minute:second there. (Still not sure why it would make it take so long to finish, though.)
19:04:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, missing indexes?
19:05:17 <fizzie> No, I don't think so; it was spending 99% of the CPU in the Perl side.
19:05:27 <fizzie> Oh well, http://zem.fi/~fis/test11.png for just last month's time-of-the-day info.
19:06:00 <fizzie> (Doing a longer period of time now.)
19:06:52 <fizzie> Oh, and the hours are again Finnish time.
19:07:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, which timezone?
19:07:39 <fizzie> EET/EEST is I think the abbrevs. We're one hour aheard of you.
19:07:55 <alise> oerjan has such a funky colour
19:08:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, also what is the cause of the abrupt changes for me? I can't think of a reasonable explanation. I certainly don't go online in exactly the same hour every day
19:08:17 <alise> I like how I managed to maintain ludicrous activity despite being in a mental institution.
19:08:21 <alise> I should get an award.
19:08:33 <alise> (Not that month, but.)
19:08:37 <alise> Vorpal: I was still in there last month.
19:08:42 <alise> But as a daypatient.
19:08:48 <alise> But even before that, on the larger graph, you can see me.
19:09:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover does however seem to keep very strict "leaving irc" time
19:10:03 <fizzie> Hmn, there seems to be something wrong with the script, based on http://zem.fi/~fis/test11b.png which should be 2009-01-01 → 2010-08-31. So you might want to disregard these results until I find out what's wrong there.
19:10:35 <alise> Vorpal: he goes to bed ridiculously early
19:10:54 <Vorpal> alise, and he never stays even in case of an interesting convo
19:11:09 <alise> i'm pretty sure he has a thing known as school
19:11:13 <alise> don't you phanty :|
19:11:36 <fizzie> Yeah, there was something *really* screwy with the "count message lengths" logic.
19:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Not in summer, that's why I was able to stay up until half 12.
19:11:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, wasn't it counting number of messages rather than length?
19:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> But then I can't bear it any longer and sleep in any case.
19:12:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: That last one was doing something really weird.
19:12:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: my $COUNT_LENGTH = 0; # 0: none, 1: count lengths, 2: count average length ← this was set to "2" earlier.
19:12:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: when is the latest you have ever gone to bed?
19:12:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, so what does it count now?
19:12:53 <fizzie> Anyway, http://zem.fi/~fis/test12.png for last month in mode 0, where it counts just number of messages and ignores lengths.
19:13:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, that needs to be logarithmic or something
19:13:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is no detail near the middle
19:13:37 <Phantom_Hoover> If I stay up really late, I'm normally not checking the time.
19:13:42 <fizzie> There's not much going *on* near the middle.
19:13:57 <fizzie> Anyway, the Y scaling is somewhat messy thanks to the smoothing.
19:14:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm why the 20-21 dip I wonder
19:15:14 <fizzie> That was just for one month; it's currently calculating the same for 2009-01-01 to 2010-08-31.
19:15:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 4am? 6am?
19:15:57 <alise> fizzie: I love how we all DIED
19:16:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I bet it's more like 7PM
19:16:53 <Vorpal> and I guess it is due to most of us being EU or NA timezones. Meaning we either sleep or are work or university at those times
19:16:58 <alise> That pm was in capitals, not just another way of saying it. That is, shouted.
19:17:05 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test12b.png -- that's averaged over 20 months.
19:17:08 <Vorpal> alise, I'm sure a plot for June-August will look different
19:17:13 <alise> Vorpal: yeah like nobody from university IRCs
19:17:27 <Vorpal> alise, well, sure we do, but not as talkative
19:17:32 <Vorpal> alise, busy with other stuff
19:18:35 <Vorpal> alise, it looks like you talk more than "others" at some times
19:18:46 <Vorpal> 22:30 or so for example
19:19:06 <fizzie> I'm doing the "sum of activities normalized to 1" relative-talkativity plot now; that reveals more midnight details.
19:19:29 <alise> Vorpal: i monologue
19:19:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't 0 at midnight?
19:19:31 <alise> nobody else really does
19:19:47 <fizzie> Well, "night" as defined by "the time #esoteric is quiet".
19:19:50 <Vorpal> alise, true, I do it very rarely
19:19:55 <fizzie> I monologue too, just not here.
19:20:17 <Vorpal> it happened a few times in here iirc, but quite sort. like 5-10 lines
19:20:24 <Vorpal> alise is at like 50-100 lines
19:20:46 <fizzie> Nowadays I tend to sleep from around 01-02 onwards, which means I keep missing a whole lot of stuff.
19:20:57 <olsner> I'm either: a) watching video in a window and not realizing it isn't fullscreen, or b) watching video in fullscreen and *still* not realizing it's fullscreen
19:21:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, client is always connected though?
19:21:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, or logging at least
19:21:21 <olsner> the second is a bit more confusing since I usually press the fullscreen button and probably expect it to cover my entire field of vision or something
19:21:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, yes, but I can't bother logreading when there's lot of stuff.
19:21:33 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test12r.png -- normalized plot.
19:21:41 <Vorpal> olsner, well that is likely do to black borders around
19:22:01 <Vorpal> olsner, it seems unlikely that full screen window actually fills your monitor without some nasty up-scaling
19:22:11 <alise> olsner: field of vision fullscreen sweet
19:22:22 <olsner> hmm, it does cover the whole screen, at least all the pixels
19:22:23 <alise> Vorpal: oh come on nothing wrong with a bit of upscaling
19:22:28 <alise> if the upscaler is good
19:22:33 <Vorpal> alise, like that bent IMAX cinema in Stockholm?
19:22:35 <alise> and the source quality is not too high anyway
19:22:40 <alise> Vorpal: i mean for things like old TV shows
19:22:40 <Vorpal> alise, it is like half a sphere
19:22:48 <alise> good luck watching TNG at its original size on a modern monitor
19:22:56 <alise> you'd need a magnifying glass :)
19:22:58 <Vorpal> and you have video above you and so on as well as in front
19:23:25 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: oh come on nothing wrong with a bit of upscaling <alise> if the upscaler is good <-- that is exceedingly rare
19:23:37 <Vorpal> alise, I haven't yet seen a good upscaler in fact
19:23:46 <Vorpal> that can manage more than say, 2-4%
19:24:37 <alise> mplayer fullscreen works acceptably on low-res, already-relatively-blurry material
19:24:40 <alise> like, as i said, old tv shows
19:24:47 <alise> you can't notice that it's upscaled because it was blurry to begin with
19:25:03 <Vorpal> alise, can't say I watched many of those
19:25:18 <Vorpal> alise, haven't watched that on computer
19:25:20 <olsner> hmm, this is 720p upscaled to 1080p
19:25:40 <alise> olsner: that should be fine
19:25:57 <alise> Vorpal: psht, you got the time-adjusted version!
19:26:01 <alise> or the jerky-movement version
19:26:18 <olsner> I don't think CRT TV:s have pixels, it's more like fuzzy overlapping blobs of light
19:26:23 <alise> probably time-adjusted
19:26:44 <alise> olsner: if you haven't looked at a semi-decent CRT monitor recently try it, it's not as fuzzy as your mental image of it becomes :P
19:26:45 <Vorpal> alise, the kind of videos I tested upscaling with were modern ones filmed with digital camera, that filled like a bit more than 1/3rd of my monitor
19:27:02 <Vorpal> alise, had a problem finding anything higher
19:27:12 <olsner> alise: I don't know anyone who still has a half-way decent CRT TV :P
19:27:16 <Vorpal> well, the 4096p thing of youtube? would need downscaling for that
19:27:23 <alise> olsner: i said monitor :-P
19:27:29 <alise> i want a trinitron
19:27:34 <pikhq> olsner: Actually, typical CRT TVs don't have pixels. They have lines.
19:27:38 <alise> i want eeeeverything
19:28:06 <alise> i just want infinite money, and the justification would be that i'm awesome
19:28:10 <pikhq> The scan line can vary at arbitrary points during the scan.
19:28:11 <Vorpal> olsner, the old CRT TV downstairs doesn't even have text tv. And you have to program the channels stored for the buttons by opening a small hatchet and turn tuning knobs!
19:28:13 <alise> WHY CAN'T I HAVE INFINITE MONEY
19:28:39 <Vorpal> alise, hm Swedish name was "texttv"
19:28:42 <olsner> Vorpal: that's faaaar from half-way decent
19:28:46 <alise> the most glorious server ever
19:28:46 <Vorpal> so I extrapolated from that
19:28:50 <alise> Ceefax still exists?
19:28:53 <alise> in the original, analogue, blocky form
19:28:53 <pikhq> If you could somehow actually get the signal to the TV set properly, you could do 4096x480 video on a regular TV set.
19:28:56 <alise> over analogue airwaves
19:28:56 <Vorpal> olsner, but. It is retro
19:29:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i mean other people not in the UK
19:29:07 <alise> Vorpal: and indeed, it will continue broadcasting in that format
19:29:12 <alise> until the last analogue TV broadcast ends in 2012
19:29:13 <pikhq> (though for this you would *probably* need to hook into the electron gun directly)
19:29:17 <alise> since the world will end in 2012
19:29:17 <Vorpal> <pikhq> If you could somehow actually get the signal to the TV set properly, you could do 4096x480 video on a regular TV set. <-- eh?
19:29:24 <alise> the world will never see the beginning of a year without ceefax
19:29:30 <alise> and that is immensely comforting.
19:29:44 <alise> Vorpal: CRT, he means
19:30:00 <Vorpal> alise, doesn't it have a max native res?
19:30:07 <fizzie> pikhq: They *do* have that shadow mask with three-color phosphors at discrete points, you can't really sensibly get more resolution than that even if you control the gun.
19:30:07 <alise> Ceefax: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/Ceefax.png
19:30:15 <alise> Vorpal: it has lines, so you'd just get insanity
19:30:17 <pikhq> fizzie: Oh, right, color TVs have shadow masks.
19:30:20 <alise> fizzie: REMOVE THEM
19:30:24 <alise> with that ceefax image
19:30:29 <alise> just imagine every pixel is blocky
19:30:31 <alise> to get a sense of it
19:30:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: my favourite tv program is Pages from Ceefax
19:30:41 <alise> the music is just so lovely
19:30:46 <Vorpal> alise, I know what text signal over tv looks like
19:30:54 <alise> Vorpal: but you've never seen Ceefax!
19:30:57 <alise> people still send letters in and shit
19:31:04 <Vorpal> alise, indeed that I haven't seen
19:31:05 <alise> i have a friend who quite recently still used it
19:31:09 <alise> like read it regularly
19:31:15 <alise> the letters though
19:31:23 <Vorpal> alise, you mean like personal letters broadcast to everyone?
19:31:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The digital version is an ABOMINATION!
19:31:32 <alise> Vorpal: public letters
19:31:36 <alise> like a primitive forum
19:31:40 <alise> that's really slow
19:31:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I know.
19:31:51 <alise> I'm just saying that it is
19:31:52 <Vorpal> alise, how did you send them? Phone?
19:32:00 <alise> Vorpal: ... Post ...
19:32:05 <Phantom_Hoover> With such a crappy signal from Channel 4 that it's like playing Nethack!
19:32:07 <alise> And it's not did; it's do.
19:32:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: At least you are spared Five!
19:32:39 <alise> Vorpal: In Britain it is forever the late 1960s.
19:32:44 <fizzie> People write to the Finnish teletext system, too; there are (well, were...) a couple of pages dedicated to correspondence from viewers.
19:32:46 <alise> Plus, uh, early 70s mixed in.
19:32:58 <alise> fizzie: RIP analogue, eh?
19:33:03 <Vorpal> alise, the neverending December 1969?
19:33:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel very lucky that during my formative years the house I lived in had no signal whatsoever from Five.
19:33:16 <pikhq> ... You guys actually have effectively a *text terminal* over your analog TV signals?
19:33:18 <alise> i used to get up before 6am to watch the kid's program on five
19:33:21 <alise> when i was like... 5
19:33:31 <alise> pikhq: The only input is a three-digit number.
19:33:36 <alise> Oh, and four shortcut buttons on every page.
19:33:38 <alise> To a different number.
19:33:42 <alise> However, text would be SWEET
19:33:49 <alise> pikhq: Also, for a multi-page document, it automatically scrolls.
19:33:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: the page number
19:33:58 <alise> pikhq: Also, wanna know how it's broadcast?
19:34:03 <alise> pikhq: /In the scanlines that aren't shown/.
19:34:11 <Vorpal> alise, not scrolls, it is like 746 (1) and so on
19:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> That means there's an actual transmitter in the TV *for the sole purpose of teletext*.
19:34:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it doesn't
19:34:31 <alise> here's how it work
19:34:34 <alise> in every scanline not shown on the tv
19:34:35 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, that's actually fairly common.
19:34:38 <alise> there is some teletext data
19:34:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, just relies on how crts work
19:34:47 <alise> this changes very quickly
19:34:50 <alise> when you enter a page number
19:34:53 <alise> it just waits until it's broadcast
19:34:58 <alise> this is why it does the counting thing
19:35:02 <Vorpal> indeed, I remember the waiting thing too
19:35:03 <pikhq> alise: Also, it's the vertical blanking interval, not the cropped scanlines.
19:35:10 <alise> pikhq: hmm, alright then
19:35:13 <fizzie> Modern TV sets sometimes cache the whole set of pages, though.
19:35:14 <Vorpal> alise, it seemed like 100 (default page iirc?) was broadcast more often than other pages
19:35:26 <alise> "Those without access to teletext-equipped sets can still view limited Ceefax content via the BBC's Pages from Ceefax slot."
19:35:37 <alise> Those still living in the 1940s are advised to turn on their wireless.
19:35:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seen a TV cache like 4 pages around you or so at most
19:36:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some cache all of it. Including the different subpages of one page. It isn't very much data, after all.
19:36:11 <cpressey> Dear Ceefax, how are you? I am fine. Yours, cpressey
19:36:14 <Vorpal> alise, also the corruption due to poor signal
19:36:19 <fizzie> At least around here they still send the teletext stuff over DVB-TXT, I believe, though I'm not completely sure.
19:36:22 <Vorpal> alise, did it have any sort of forward error correction?
19:36:39 <fizzie> At least the web interface -- http://www.yle.fi/tekstitv/html/ but it's mostly in Finnish only -- still works.
19:36:40 <Vorpal> you could get strange blocks all over the page
19:36:46 <pikhq> alise: The US sends much, much less stuff in the VBI than you guys do.
19:36:46 <alise> Vorpal: yeah i think it had no correction...
19:36:49 <alise> well it probably had some sort of duplication
19:36:52 <alise> otherwise no single page would work
19:37:05 <alise> pikhq: WE USE IT TO ITS TFULL EXTENT
19:37:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, "Tyvärr kunde sidan du sökte inte hittas"
19:37:09 <alise> <fizzie> At least around here they still send the teletext stuff over DVB-TXT, I believe, though I'm not completely sure.
19:37:09 <pikhq> Lessee. Closed captioning, time, content ratings.
19:37:12 <alise> it's all crappy and modern though
19:37:22 <alise> pikhq: closed captioning? that's teletext page 888
19:37:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, and above that "Valitettavasti etsimääsi sivua ei löytynyt"
19:37:26 <pikhq> We don't even use it for noting the aspect ratio of the analog signal.
19:37:34 <alise> [TEXT] [8] [8] [8] ...wait...
19:37:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: Whoops, http://www.yle.fi/tekstitv/ just; I cut the URL a bit wrongly.
19:37:39 <alise> suddenly the teletext stuff disappears
19:37:47 <alise> only appearing, with the large font, in a black box, in the bottom, for subtitles
19:37:54 <alise> pressing a number brings up the little top bar again to go elsewhere
19:37:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: wait, the tv contains a *transmitter*?
19:38:15 <alise> fizzie: that is amazing :D
19:38:28 <pikhq> alise: Yes, really, it is impossible to tell what aspect ratio an analog, System M, NTSC signal is.
19:38:40 <Vorpal> alise, it was not 888 here, but something else
19:39:02 <alise> pikhq: ...here we have the Sky (digital satellite TV) box set to relay the real aspect ratio to the TV
19:39:07 <pikhq> Which leads to two things: almost no 16:9 analog signals, and morons displaying all 4:3 signals as 16:9.
19:39:10 <alise> which then adds black bars to the left and right of 4:3 content as appropriate
19:39:12 <alise> this works universally
19:39:16 <fizzie> 300-something here, IIRC. And it wasn't really used much, sometimes there were alternative-language subtitles. Nowadays everything's done with DVB's subpicture streams.
19:39:20 <alise> unfortunately by default it just stretches
19:39:26 <alise> so it requires a little bit of set-up
19:39:37 <Vorpal> <pikhq> alise: Yes, really, it is impossible to tell what aspect ratio an analog, System M, NTSC signal is. <-- how comes?
19:39:47 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because the aspect ratio is not encoded in the signal.
19:40:09 <fizzie> Oh, and the Finnish teletext system has a "subtitle blanking page", which puts two black bars over the regions that usually have subtitles there. It's meant for those who are trying to learn languages and want to avoid seeing the translations.
19:40:19 <cpressey> whoa, i just realized, if !(a|b) then !(a^2|b^2) where | is "divides"
19:40:22 <pikhq> Unlike most PAL systems, which note whether it's 4:3 pillerboxed, 4:3 native, 16:9 letterboxed, 16:9 native, or PALplus.
19:40:37 <Vorpal> alise, I remember that here they did real-time captioning for news sometimes. Which was strange to watch. The captioning sometimes typoed and backspaced
19:40:48 <alise> cpressey: !(a|b) == a%b :P
19:41:10 <pikhq> (PALplus being a backwards-compatible 16:9 encoding which on incompatible sets shows as 16:9 letterboxed, and on compatible sets shows as 16:9 native. The missing lines are encoded inside the letterboxing.)
19:41:11 <cpressey> alise: i was trying not to overload ints and bools
19:41:12 <fizzie> http://www.yle.fi/cgi-bin/tekstitv/ttv.cgi/html?PAGE=338 -- but it's pretty boring since there's only black background behind the black bars. :p
19:41:14 <alise> i wonder if you can exploit that somehow
19:41:34 <alise> a%b implies (a<<1)%(a<<2)
19:41:38 <alise> a%b implies (a<<1)%(a<<1)
19:41:49 <alise> not true if it overflows ofc
19:41:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, what was the normal captioning pages?
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19:42:00 <alise> fizzie: it should automatically show them
19:42:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: 333 for channel 1, 334 for channel 2 here. They share the teletext pages.
19:42:27 <alise> <pikhq> (PALplus being a backwards-compatible 16:9 encoding which on incompatible sets shows as 16:9 letterboxed, and on compatible sets shows as 16:9 native. The missing lines are encoded inside the letterboxing.)
19:42:31 <alise> i think that's what everything uses nowadays
19:42:35 <alise> everything = all FIVE channels!
19:42:46 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, you can prove the irrationality of root 2 with that.
19:42:54 <alise> fizzie: ceefax is shared over BBC 1 and 2 but it's still always 888
19:42:56 <alise> because we are superior
19:42:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah yes they did for SVT1/SVT2 here too
19:43:00 <alise> we have different ceefaxes
19:43:02 <alise> just most of the pages are identical
19:43:06 <Vorpal> so they had different captioning pages
19:43:07 <alise> although some are only available on one channel
19:43:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, this looks wrong? http://www.yle.fi/cgi-bin/tekstitv/ttv.cgi/html?PAGE=333
19:43:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does that page say?
19:43:37 <pikhq> alise: Well of course everything uses PALplus. It's the easy way of doing analog 16:9 video without breaking stuff for the person with the 50 year old TV set.
19:43:46 <alise> Vorpal: that looks like a teletext 404 :D
19:44:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, hey mine is just 35 or so iirc :P
19:44:14 <Vorpal> alise, yes I was suspecting that too
19:44:18 <Vorpal> but I want confirmation
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19:44:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: "The page you are looking for does not exist on the www-server", basically.
19:44:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: Might be related to the fact that no subtitled programs are going on at the moment.
19:44:51 <alise> "...I mean tele-server."
19:44:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: You might want to upgrade. TVs have gotten much less shitty.
19:45:04 <alise> pikhq: and more shitty in other ways!
19:45:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't use it :P
19:45:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, I hardly ever watch TV
19:45:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Argh, I have to go visit my (Catholic) extended family in 2 days.
19:46:11 <pikhq> alise: Yes, the programming is still shit.
19:46:16 <fizzie> alise: Oh, and the currently send Finnish subtitles (for hearing-impaired folks) using DVB subpictures with the language code for Dutch; I think it is because of compatibility reasons; all (well, most) boxes let you change the subtitling language, but less support the "force subtitles even if they're not displayed by default" thing.
19:46:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, and the array of 2 rows of 10 tuning knobs each under that hatch is cool. As I said above, used for storing the channels for the buttons
19:46:44 <alise> fizzie: I don't get it.
19:46:53 <Vorpal> of course, these days there is just one channel used, the one mapped to the digital TV box
19:46:57 <Vorpal> which has it's own remote
19:47:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't get it either
19:48:13 <fizzie> If they sent those subtitles with the code for Finnish, then they'd have to set the "non-mandatory" bit on -- otherwise they'd be displayed for everyone, not just those that want to see them -- and since not all boxes can force subtitles to be displayed, they instead send them as "Dutch" subtitles, because with more boxes you can change the subtitling language to Dutch when you want to see them.
19:48:48 <fizzie> I'm not sure what they'd do if they'd happen to have actual Dutch subtitles for something, but also the hearing-impaired Finnish ones.
19:49:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, this is so screwy
19:50:26 <fizzie> Oh, and I have managed to record some DVB streams so that it picks up all subtitles from the whole... what's it called, "group" of channels sent over one DVB "stream", and then displays all of them at the same time. It's quite hilarious, since the other channels' subtitles don't correspond to the program at all.
19:51:11 <alise> <fizzie> I'm not sure what they'd do if they'd happen to have actual Dutch subtitles for something, but also the hearing-impaired Finnish ones.
19:51:13 <alise> Dutch is now German
19:51:36 <Vorpal> alise, by the pigeonhole principle this will run into problems at some point
19:51:37 <fizzie> (DVB sends a program stream of N megabits over a single frequency, and it's the client's task to pick only video/audio/subpictures for the channel it's interested at.)
19:51:52 <olsner> Vorpal: only if something eventually gets subtitled into every language on earth
19:52:06 <cpressey> i wanted to make a homebrew computer based around a closed-captioning decoder chip at one point (makes it easy to display text on a crt...)
19:52:16 <Vorpal> olsner, true, and even before then there will be confusion about the moving around of various languages
19:52:16 <fizzie> (That does have the nice property that you can watch channel X and record channel Y even with only a single DVB tuner, as long as X and Y happen to be in the same group.)
19:52:20 <olsner> just keep remapping with a less popular language until you've run out of them, then invent a new language code 'xx' or something
19:52:57 <olsner> fizzie: ooh, that's cool, didn't know that about DVB
19:53:14 <olsner> that's probably where they'll squeeze the hbbtv stuff in
19:53:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, assuming it supports that?
19:53:55 <olsner> newfangled internetty digital web-tv 2.0 thing
19:54:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Assuming that. Supporting it was for a very long time a feature request in MythTV; they finally got it done with a really half-arsed solution though. VDR's been capable of it for... well, long.
19:55:02 <fizzie> (I don't know how well consumer-hardware style DVB boxes support it.)
19:55:03 <olsner> something like digital tv plus internet, essentially, with some new standards for how to do the internet part and (iirc) stuff like html with video-tags displaying DVB video
19:55:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I meant the tv card or whatever
19:55:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably it might do the filtering in hardware
19:55:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, but the cheap ones all just return the the full program stream and let the software figure it out. :p
19:55:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, like my digital tv box does, since it gives just one signal out to the TV
19:56:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, except that I did have one USB 1.2 DVB tuner. The bandwidth of pre-2 USB isn't wide enough to push the whole program stream through, so you have to use the filtering (which it did support) there. (But when you use it, you can't do the nifty simultaneous watch+record trick, of course.)
19:56:56 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, by the pigeonhole principle this will run into problems at some point
19:57:18 <alise> nobody would ever want to read subtitles in such an insane language
19:57:21 <alise> so the last language can just replace English
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19:58:02 <Vorpal> alise, what about hearing impaired Americans who emigrated to Finland?
19:58:11 <Vorpal> English speaking americans I mean
19:58:47 <alise> nobody speaks English psht
19:59:06 <alise> oh, if they want to add a language not even in the list, they can replace Swedish
19:59:08 <alise> the other dead language
19:59:09 <olsner> you should just have different "languages" for normal text and hearing-impaired text
19:59:22 <olsner> because, they are usually different subtitles
19:59:27 <alise> Som kommer att fungera perfekt.
19:59:34 <Vorpal> olsner, or make hw support the "not mandatory" flag
20:00:37 <fizzie> Some of it supports the manual visibility setting; they just might be worried that older devices will show those subtitles all the time if they label them as Finnish.
20:01:13 <alise> olsner: not in the UK
20:01:19 <alise> we get hearing-impaired stuff in the normal subtitles screen
20:01:28 <alise> because the rest of us have fine-tuned our acent decoders
20:01:32 <alise> and need no subtitles
20:01:45 <Vorpal> alise, ja med engleska vill säga ty detta vackra språk jag nu skriver på, som talas uti de flesta delar av Sverige är ju inte dött än.
20:01:51 <Vorpal> hm I wonder how well that translates
20:02:14 <Vorpal> alise, "uti" was correct
20:02:27 <Vorpal> alise, it is rather poetic/archaic though
20:02:34 <alise> Vorpal: Alla vet att franska är det språk som Sverige. Bonjour!
20:02:49 <Vorpal> alise, "that language which Sweden"?
20:02:54 <alise> "the language of Sweden"
20:03:04 <Vorpal> alise, incorrectly translated
20:03:22 <alise> Egentligen Sverige ÄR Frankrike, om man tänker på det tillräckligt hårt.
20:03:31 <Vorpal> alise, wrong word order
20:03:43 <olsner> tänker man tillräckligt HÅRT så går nog precis vad som helst
20:03:45 <Vorpal> "är" has to go in front of Sweden
20:04:06 <alise> Vorpal: Din promiskuösa amerikansk mamma är så fet, blev hon ett svart hål.
20:04:20 <alise> amerikansk is supposed to be African-American.
20:04:22 <alise> Dunno if that translated.
20:04:30 <Vorpal> alise, how formally said. I mean what was "promiskuösa" supposed to be?
20:04:36 <alise> Vorpal: promiscuous
20:04:42 <alise> "Your promiscuous African-American mother is so fat, she became a black hole."
20:04:45 <Vorpal> alise, ah, it sounds extremely formal in Sweden
20:04:54 <Vorpal> alise, and it ended up wrong after the ,
20:05:05 <alise> olsner: "one thinks hard enough, so will probably just about anything"
20:05:22 <Vorpal> alise, nonsense in English
20:05:27 <alise> Vi kommer i fred, skjuta för att döda, skjuta för att döda, skjuta för att döda, vi kommer i fred, skjuta för att döda, skjuta för att döda, män.
20:05:29 <olsner> alise: the harder you think, the harder *they* think!
20:05:40 <Vorpal> alise, why "men" at the end?
20:05:44 <fizzie> Seuraavaksi samma på finska?
20:05:51 <alise> Vorpal: That's how it is in the song!
20:05:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, "Seuraavaksi"?
20:06:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Next", in Finnish.
20:06:12 <alise> Det är liv, Jim, men inte som vi känner det, inte som vi känner det, inte som vi känner det, det är liv, Jim, men inte som vi känner det, inte som vi känner det, kapten.
20:06:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, "next same in Finnish"?
20:06:33 <alise> Vorpal: Is ^ correctly translated?
20:06:39 <Vorpal> alise, I don't know the original
20:06:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, or more like "next, the same in Finnish".
20:06:46 <alise> "It's life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it, it's life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain."
20:06:58 <Vorpal> alise, and well, lyrics are often not grammatically reasonable
20:07:31 <Vorpal> alise, "it's life" was literally translated. Which doesn't work
20:07:34 <Vorpal> it's an idiom in English
20:08:13 <Vorpal> you need to change it to "the life" (livet) for it to be sensible in Swedish, and even then it feels unidiomatic somehow.
20:08:21 <Vorpal> hm "så är livet" sounds better
20:08:22 <alise> Vorpal: no, it's not an idiom here
20:08:24 <fizzie> (To be more accurate about it, fi:seuraava is approximately en:next, and the -ksi suffix is I guess the translative noun case.)
20:08:32 <alise> referring to [insert strange alien species of the week]
20:08:54 <Vorpal> alise, someone made some sort of parody song on TOS?
20:09:07 <alise> i.e. this thing is definitely alive, but not of a form we understand or commonly recognise.
20:09:19 <alise> Vorpal: In 1987, yes.
20:09:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you know, sånt är livet.
20:09:23 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCARADb9asE
20:09:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, that sounds idiomatic too
20:09:33 <alise> Especially the log Kirk holds in the video:)
20:09:52 <alise> "Boldly going forwards / 'cause we can't find reverse."
20:10:38 <fizzie> Staaaaar-trekking, across the universe. The song was used *somewhere*, but I can't quite remember where. (Well, presumably it's been used in many places, but I am thinking of a particular instance.)
20:10:51 <alise> The breakdown at the end is... odd.
20:11:01 <alise> Vorpal: can you translate "across the universe" for me?
20:11:10 <alise> Google Translate says "Across the Universe", because of the Beatles thing.
20:11:17 <Vorpal> alise, in 1987? Not a home made video then
20:11:40 <Vorpal> alise, hm... "over the universe"?
20:11:42 <alise> Vorpal: It got to #1 in the UK.
20:11:46 <alise> Simon Bates, then a BBC Radio 1 DJ, took the song under his wing with the result that it became an instant hit, spending two weeks at number one on the UK Singles Chart[2] and becoming the ninth best-selling single of 1987 in the UK.
20:12:11 <Vorpal> alise, for some reason I can't think of a reasonable word there
20:12:23 <alise> olsner: Translate "across" for me.
20:12:32 <alise> Vorpal: Translate "across" for me.
20:12:52 <alise> Över universum? Ett KORS universum! (<- non-joke)
20:13:01 <alise> It works in English! Although it isn't funny.
20:13:06 <fizzie> There was a Finnish comedy show sketch, a Star Trek parody, called "Tähtireki": literally translated that is "star sleigh", i.e. that thing Santa goes around in.
20:13:16 <fizzie> http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:T%C3%A4htireki.JPG
20:13:30 <alise> I still want to make Star Tech.
20:13:49 <fizzie> I think the point was that they talked only in abbreviations; they just said the first letter of each word of the sentence.
20:13:55 <alise> (wherein all the places in TNG where they probably wrote "tech" instead of the technobabble (they actually did this), you dub "tech" over.)
20:14:02 <Vorpal> alise, "ett kors" means "a cross" not "across"
20:14:04 <alise> Captain! The techyon pulse is destabilising!
20:14:09 <olsner> star träck = starling droppings
20:14:14 <alise> "I hate you!" "IHY!"
20:14:18 <olsner> *starträck of course, meh
20:14:24 <fizzie> alise: The commander was trying to say "Turn Right" or something, and kept repeating "TR, TR, TR", and the underling kept understanding it wrong.
20:14:34 <alise> fizzie: That ... is hilariously ridiculous.
20:14:51 <alise> fizzie: Was that the /entire premise/ of a /TV show/?
20:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't get the expression for the kth digit to work no matter how hard I try.
20:15:10 <fizzie> alise: Also, each episode ended with some catastrophe or other, and just before it hits the commander says, defeated, "EVVK"; short for "Ei Voisi Vähempää Kiinnostaa", or "Could Not Care Less".
20:15:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's in hex.
20:15:26 <fizzie> alise: No, it was just a single sketch in some sort of multi-sketch comedy show. But there were a couple of them.
20:15:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Obviously you don't want the 1/16^k factor.
20:15:43 <alise> So it's just (4/8k+1) - (2/8k+4) - (1/8k+5) - (1/8k+6).
20:15:49 <alise> Where that's 4/(8k+1).
20:17:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh wait, you /want/ 1/16^k.
20:17:18 <alise> That's why the rounding brackets are there.
20:17:33 <Vorpal> <alise> Especially the log Kirk holds in the video:) <-- where? I missed that
20:17:42 <alise> Vorpal: every time you see him
20:17:44 <alise> he has a log in his lap
20:17:47 <Vorpal> alise, and why the log in kirk's knee?
20:17:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula
20:17:58 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: you forgot the tech in the third tech from the end
20:18:02 <alise> Vorpal: had to have it pointed out to me too :)
20:18:23 <alise> <fizzie> alise: Also, each episode ended with some catastrophe or other, and just before it hits the commander says, defeated, "EVVK"; short for "Ei Voisi Vähempää Kiinnostaa", or "Could Not Care Less".
20:18:27 <alise> How were you meant to know this?
20:18:29 <Vorpal> alise, and what's up with the "on the starbord"? And why that thing in front of the face
20:18:30 -!- Sgeo|web has joined.
20:18:39 <Sgeo|web> alise: Any reason to not burn Knoppix?
20:18:41 <alise> Vorpal: Port and starboard bows.
20:18:52 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, burned cds smell badly?
20:18:53 <alise> Sgeo|web: It's not Ubuntu, and Ubuntu has everything you need right now, plus an actually viable OS to install afterwards.
20:19:03 <Vorpal> and burning plastic releases toxic gases
20:19:04 <alise> Vorpal: Also, in front of which face?
20:19:12 <alise> Vorpal: Please tell me you are joking.
20:19:24 <Sgeo|web> Does Knoppix not have TestDisk?
20:19:30 <Vorpal> alise, the one who says "that thing is on the starbord now"
20:19:34 <Sgeo|web> Also, I also burned Parted Magic
20:19:49 <Sgeo|web> And I'm not going to be installing any OSes on this drive anytime soon
20:19:51 <alise> Vorpal: that's uhura to start with
20:19:54 <alise> then it's the doctor
20:20:00 <Sgeo|web> Just a temporary thing until I get an external HD
20:20:10 <alise> Sgeo|web: Burn Ubuntu.
20:20:16 <alise> I refuse to answer any more questions because there is no reason not to.
20:20:18 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, for a comprehensive suite of disk tools I suggest systemrescuecd
20:20:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, it has gparted, testdisk, and a lot of other stuff too
20:20:46 <alise> Vorpal: that also works
20:20:51 <Sgeo|web> Anything interesting on there that's not on Parted Magic?
20:20:52 <alise> but Knoppix or Parted Magic are just stupid choices
20:20:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, of course it doesn't have all the games or openoffice and so on that knoppix has
20:21:01 <alise> i think Sgeo|web just loves parted magic for some reason
20:21:08 * Sgeo|web is _currently_ using Parted Magic, fwiw
20:21:08 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, but that isn't what I want of a system rescue cd
20:21:22 <alise> PARTED MAGIC OMG IT'S THE ONLY REASON I EXIST
20:21:26 <Sgeo|web> So unless there's something on systemrescuecd that's not on here already, I
20:21:32 <Sgeo|web> I'm not going to bother burning ot
20:22:07 <Sgeo|web> LiveCD with a bunch of disk related stuff
20:22:08 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, I don't know what parted magic contains
20:22:10 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, are those square brackets in the BBW formula actually rounding?
20:22:21 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, go to system rescue cd website and check
20:22:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
20:22:30 <Sgeo|web> http://partedmagic.com/programs.html
20:22:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, does that parted magic cd have mdadm and such?
20:22:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I've seen square brackets used as normal ones TOO OFTEN.
20:22:50 <Vorpal> for linux software raid
20:22:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I think...
20:22:55 <alise> [] as () is common in logic.
20:23:01 <alise> Vorpal: ok, Sgeo doesn't use /that/
20:23:09 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, anyway http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page
20:23:13 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, go on from there
20:23:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, http://www.sysresccd.org/Detailed-packages-list
20:23:54 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web, IGNORE ANYTHING VORPAL SAYS ABOUT RAID
20:23:57 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, the cd also contains several non-linux boot images
20:24:13 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, such as some real mode hw testing tools like memtest
20:24:34 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, http://www.sysresccd.org/System-tools
20:24:37 <Sgeo|web> Funnily enough, testing the memory is the least of my concerns right now
20:24:54 <Vorpal> "MHDD[25] low-level Hard Disk Drive Diagnostic. Reports S.M.A.R.T. data, firmware errorlog, runs firmware tests, scans surface reporting access times per sector and much more. Revised documentation at [26]"
20:24:55 <alise> "I have Active Worlds code to rescue!"
20:25:00 <Vorpal> is another bootable image file on it
20:25:23 <Vorpal> I stick to booting the linux image
20:26:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web, incidentally, have you tried picking apart your partition table (or what's left of it)?
20:26:27 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I can just point him to the website and package list since I don't know exactly what he wants
20:26:31 <Sgeo|web> I think at any rate, all I want to do is use TestDisk to backup all the important stuff somewhere, then get rid of the disk
20:26:50 <Sgeo|web> the SMART stuff claims there are read errors
20:26:50 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, I would suggest ddrescue?
20:26:57 <Vorpal> to get an image of what you can
20:27:07 <Vorpal> then try to restore from there
20:27:32 <Vorpal> since with manual rescuing straight from the disk it is likely to take more time, which is a BAD IDEA for a broken disk
20:27:43 <Vorpal> so ddrescue right away to an image file on another harddrive
20:27:49 <Vorpal> then recover from that
20:28:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, but for god's sake, read the ddrescue docs first
20:28:20 <Vorpal> you don't want to skip that step
20:28:39 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: sheesh. ROUNDING brackets should be ROUND.
20:28:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, since you need to pass some flags to make resuming possible in case you have to interrupt the recovering
20:29:02 <alise> Vorpal: he's already left it a day or two
20:29:04 <Vorpal> or want to retry parts
20:29:12 <Vorpal> alise, no hope then I guess
20:29:20 <Vorpal> alise, how stupid can he be
20:29:30 <Vorpal> alise, first that key thing where he chipped the plastic
20:30:14 <alise> Sgeo|web: left a broken HD for days before attempting recovery
20:30:23 * cpressey doesn't see nearly enough hex fractions these days
20:30:38 <Sgeo|web> alise: I don't know how soon I'll have a place to back stuff up to
20:30:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, double x = 3.14; printf("%lx\n", *((unsigned long*)&x));
20:30:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that should give you pi in hex
20:31:00 <alise> Prelude> let bbp n = ((4/((8*n)+1)) - (2/((8*n)+4)) - (1/((8*n)+5)) - (1/((8*n)+6))) * (16**n)
20:31:00 <alise> Prelude> map (round . bbp) [1..10]
20:31:00 <alise> [2,11,85,807,8541,97051,1159542,14380534,183563828,2397572384]
20:31:04 <Vorpal> assuming a 64-bit system
20:31:10 <Vorpal> adjust to long long for 32-bit
20:31:14 <alise> Vorpal: because 3.14 is pi.
20:31:29 <Sgeo|web> alise: it gets worse with time?
20:31:33 <Vorpal> alise, to 3 significant digits yes :P
20:31:55 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula
20:32:13 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, yes a disk that is dying will get worse with time
20:32:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, depends on failure mode
20:32:34 <alise> pi begins 3.24 btw
20:32:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh wait duh
20:32:52 <alise> i'm pretty sure it's binary
20:32:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, hard to tell what failure mode that gave raise to
20:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It's basically pi = sum from 0 to infinity [16^(-k)f(k))
20:33:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, spingle misaligned? broken platter?
20:33:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah....
20:34:01 <Sgeo|web> And read on this one with TestDisk
20:34:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/4/b/04b7d4bcbf61949558b66a5ee48d9dbf.png
20:34:10 <Phantom_Hoover> So if the head's wonky he could have ruined what data was left.
20:34:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, stupid stupid stupid
20:34:14 <alise> The formula yields an algorithm for extracting hexadecimal digits of π. In order to perform digit extraction first we must rewrite the formula as
20:34:20 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula#BBP_digit-extraction_algorithm_for_.CF.80
20:34:24 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, turn off disk until you are ready to begin test
20:34:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, that means physically turning it off
20:34:38 <Vorpal> not just having it sit idle
20:34:42 <Sgeo|web> How do I make sure it's spun down?
20:34:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, SHUT OFF COMPUTER, UNPLUG IT
20:35:01 <Sgeo|web> ...while having a usable computer
20:35:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, how are you going to rescue it if you don't have another hdd to dump the image file to
20:35:37 <alise> Vorpal: well the mbr is intact
20:35:40 <Phantom_Hoover> YOUR HARD DRIVE COULD BE SCRATCHING YOUR DISK TO DEATH FOR ALL YOU KNOW
20:35:41 <alise> and at least one part of data
20:35:46 <alise> since wubi/ubuntu tries to boot
20:35:50 <alise> (but fails due to the windows installation being fucked)
20:36:10 <alise> Yes, but it adds a bootloader.
20:36:24 <Vorpal> alise, yes but errors can spread if the platter is damaged. As in read head could try to read the damaged area and hit things physically and thus spread the bad sectors
20:36:25 <alise> Which is jumped to, and it just says "lol you no files"
20:36:34 <Vorpal> alise, if the platters have physical impact damage
20:36:48 <Vorpal> alise, which is why he should take that hdd out
20:36:53 <Sgeo|web> Is there an boot option I can add to livecds to make it not spin up the HD?
20:37:09 <alise> Sgeo|web: If you had a better laptop it would have tried to stop using the HD as soon as you dropped it :P
20:37:09 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, use an external hd cabinet perhaps
20:37:19 <alise> What Phantom_Hoover said.
20:37:28 <alise> Just do it. Like, right now.
20:37:32 <alise> While it's turned on!
20:37:41 <alise> Do you value YOUR LIFE or your DRIVE'S life?!
20:38:02 <alise> Vorpal: what does "i hela universum" mean?
20:38:06 <alise> Sgeo|web: Then turn it off. Now.
20:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely there's not particularly lethal current in a drive bus?
20:38:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Sgeo|web, alise: when I last rescued a dying disk I used an external harddrive cabinet, and turned it on, waited until it got an sdc device, then ran ddrescue with relevant parameters on it, dumping it to an image file on another disk
20:38:32 <Vorpal> alise, "in the whole universe"
20:39:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web, listen to Vorpal. The longer your HD is in the computer, the less your chances of salvaging any data become.
20:39:30 <Vorpal> could rescue almost everything in that case. The error was not a read error but some strange spin-down-and-reset issue
20:39:32 <alise> Star Trekkin' / Över universum / På rymdskeppet Enterprise / Enligt Kapten Kirk!
20:39:33 <alise> Star Trekkin' / Över universum / Djärvt gå framåt / Eftersom vi inte kan hitta vända!
20:39:43 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:39:45 <alise> I hope it preserved the RHYMES
20:40:00 <alise> Vorpal: it translates quite well
20:40:10 <Vorpal> alise, and we don't have the split infinitive or whatever it is called
20:40:10 <alise> Star Trekkin' / Over the Universe / On the starship Enterprise / According to Captain Kirk!
20:40:18 <alise> "...but he might be lying about that. This could be a cardboard box."
20:40:31 <alise> Star Trekkin' / Over the Universe / Boldly move forwards / Since we can not find reverse!
20:40:36 <ais523> <Birmingham University> Dear student, The University is launching a new website with revised content and a fresh new design. The purpose of the new site is to communicate to our external audiences in a clear and consistent manner. You will be able to see it next week when it launches overnight on 20 September. The main website address will change to www.birmingham.ac.uk.
20:40:43 <ais523> any bets on how much of a disaster this will be?
20:40:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, you will lose data rapidly on your disk right now
20:40:57 <alise> ais523: i bet it will be a disaster; how much is the bet worth?
20:41:05 <ais523> oh, I think it'll be a disaster too
20:41:08 <ais523> so we both need someone to bet against
20:41:16 <alise> let's bet against fungot
20:41:16 <fungot> alise: sorry, i misread. :) trying tho! lol
20:41:22 <alise> nope, too illiterate
20:41:38 -!- Sgeo|web_ has joined.
20:41:40 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, anyway from linux you could spin down by hdparm -Y. And making sure smartd or anything else that might try to access the hd is NOT RUNNING
20:41:49 <alise> ais523: Tror du hela kanal bör vara på svenska?
20:41:50 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, from windows you are fscked
20:42:07 <Sgeo|web_> Status update: I am on a school computer
20:42:14 <ais523> what on earth is going on?
20:42:25 <ais523> as in, why would you want to spin down a hard-drive without shutting it down, except to save power or something?
20:42:28 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:42:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, proper computers will unload drive head
20:43:03 <ais523> did the hard drive actually crash?
20:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> We have been telling him to turn the effing disk off to stop it from destroying what survives.
20:43:19 <ais523> anyway, IIRC if you cut the power to a hard drive, it uses its own rotational energy as a generator to park the drive heads
20:43:32 <alise> ais523: he dropped it, tried to boot it a load of times, booted a linux livecd -- this all took two days or so
20:43:34 <ais523> although I'm not sure if they /all/ do that
20:43:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, we do not know if Sgeo is using a proper computer.
20:43:35 <Vorpal> ais523, well, no one opened and checked. MBR is readable, but it can't book
20:43:38 <Sgeo|web_> <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web, listen to Vorpal. The longer your HD is in the computer, the less your chances of salvaging any data become.
20:43:40 <alise> now his harddrive is probably utterly irrecoverable and he's being slow to stop the disk
20:43:42 <Vorpal> ais523, and not readable from other computer
20:43:56 <pikhq> ais523: Any one made in the last, oh, 20 years or so.
20:44:05 <ais523> it's hard to make a hard-drive theoretically unrecoverable, but after a while it reaches the point where you need an electron microscope to get the data off
20:44:37 <Vorpal> ais523, I think dropping in something hot enough to melt the platters might do the trick
20:44:44 <Vorpal> not sure if molten iron is hot enough
20:45:03 <ais523> but it takes a lot of effort, they're not the sort of thing you're likely to do by mistake
20:45:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: You need it to be hot enough to scramble the magnetic domains.
20:45:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, would not be as well stired
20:45:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about hot enough to melt it, say a math of magma, and then stiring the whole thing well for an hour?
20:45:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's well above hot enough.
20:46:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah, is a bath of molten iron hot enough?
20:46:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, think terminator 2, final scene
20:46:36 <alise> i did not think Vorpal would have seen terminator.
20:46:38 <pikhq> Depends on what the magnetic material is...
20:46:53 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Melting point of iron is 1538 C...
20:46:55 <ais523> meanwhile, C-INTERCAL's been removed from Debian, they can't find a maintainer
20:47:03 <Vorpal> alise, I only seen one of them, terminator 2
20:47:06 <pikhq> I *think* that's going to be above the Curie temperature for anything.
20:47:10 <alise> ais523: you run and tell them that i'll maintain it.
20:47:23 <ais523> I don't think you're a debian maintainer...
20:47:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: BTW, the easier way to pull this off is Thermite.
20:48:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Thermite is not hard to make and *really* hot.
20:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, describe the situation so we actually know what's going on,
20:49:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah yes think I seen a video of it
20:49:17 <alise> pikhq: Better: Termite
20:49:19 <alise> Let them eat at it
20:49:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, periodic videos or such
20:49:29 <pikhq> Rust + aluminium. Apply blowtorch.
20:49:43 <Phantom_Hoover> And the hard drive, when read, shows no partitions etc
20:49:46 <alise> ais523: have you ever wanted a program for easy unix-pipeline screenscraping? no? why not?!
20:50:05 <ais523> dissolving the platters in acid such that they're no longer magnetic works
20:50:11 <ais523> alise: script? ttyrec? tpipe?
20:50:12 <Vorpal> hm no partitions = mbr fucked, boots to boot loader = mbr not fucked
20:50:14 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what you mean
20:50:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: Burns up to about 2500°C.
20:50:24 <Sgeo|web_> A friend tried a script he wrote that does ddrescue stuff
20:50:27 <alise> ais523: screen-scraping in the web sense
20:50:38 <alise> that is, you give it a URL and some sort of syntax to extract things from the page, and it spits them out on stdout
20:50:38 <Sgeo|web_> But it was taking too long, and I wasn't willing to leave the laptop at the school over the weekend
20:50:49 <alise> ais523: good luck isolating "every other link" with lynx --dump
20:51:05 <Vorpal> <Sgeo|web_> But it was taking too long, and I wasn't willing to leave the laptop at the school over the weekend <-- so run it at home with another computer
20:51:24 <Sgeo|web_> I think, preferably, not using this friend's script
20:51:27 <alise> ais523: With ~~!!scrape(1)!!~~, it's $ scrape http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/ 'a:nth-child(even)'
20:51:31 <ais523> I'm not sure how well dd on an unmounted external hard-drive works on Windows
20:51:37 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web_, but read ddrescue manual
20:51:50 <ais523> alise: I've used Perl before for that sort of thing; with a few CPAN libraries, it's not /quite/ that simple, but close
20:51:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well he should have not touched it until he could run ddrescue as the first thing
20:51:57 <alise> ais523: Ah, but scrape has more features!
20:52:11 <alise> ais523: Well, in a simple syntax.
20:52:13 <ais523> is that even theoreticlaly possible?
20:52:41 <alise> ais523: -content/-text print out just the HTML innards rather than the outer tag, and the whole contents with markup removed, respectively. -xpath uses XPath instead of CSS selectors.
20:52:43 <Sgeo|web_> The script is supposed to use a large block size for speed, then smaller for the errors, iirc
20:52:46 <alise> (They apply to the next pattern.)
20:52:50 <alise> It can read any URL! Probably!
20:52:58 <alise> And you can give it more than one selector, though why, I'm unsure.
20:53:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, basically, do what Vorpal says: get a disk image as soon as possible, and FFS *don't use the disk until then*.
20:53:31 <ais523> anyway, I've had a hard-drive break "unrecoverably" on me before (there was a power supply error)
20:53:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but in general Sgeo seems to act stupidly when it comes to these sort of things. I mean when I got hw issues on one disk in my RAID 1 setup (random spin down when reading, any smart scan while it happened "forgotten"), the first one I thought was a random fluke, second time I wasn't at the computer, but as soon as I got back I failed the array and turned off
20:54:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and use ddrescue to get the disk image, but you really want to read the whole manual first
20:54:26 <Vorpal> since otherwise you will use ddrescue in a bad way
20:54:37 <Vorpal> you need to provide a log file parameter to use
20:54:38 <alise> I'm also planning to let you select, e.g. an attribute to print out.
20:54:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's not idiocy, just not knowing the correct procedure and doing obvious things that are harmful.
20:54:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, otherwise you can't have a second go with smaller block size
20:55:14 <ais523> I lost a bit of data, but mostly I restored from backup
20:55:37 <Vorpal> suggestion: log + default settings on first attempt, then rerun with smaller block size and possibly non-cached access using the log file
20:55:45 <Vorpal> it will attempt to re-read failed areas
20:55:49 <Sgeo|web_> I think that's what the script is supposed to do
20:56:34 <Vorpal> and yes, don't use the disk, until you are able to rescue it. External cabinet recommended to cut down on time spent running while live cd boots
20:56:43 <alise> $ scrape http://reddit.com/ -text a.title # most pointless command-line ever
20:56:46 <Sgeo|web_> According to the manual, it automatically tries what you are suggesting
20:56:56 <alise> Oops, unicode error.
20:57:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web_, I'm pretty sure the log file is not used by default
20:57:04 <Sgeo|web_> Or, at least, according to my interpretation
20:57:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web_, which you need
20:57:24 <Sgeo|web_> So use the logfile, and you didn';t mean taht I have to manually use smaller block sizes for errors
20:57:40 <Sgeo|web_> No insane scripts that contain scripts that modify themselves
20:57:43 <Vorpal> http://www.gnu.org/software/ddrescue/manual/ddrescue_manual.html#Examples
20:58:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web_, notice double invocation of ddrescue there
20:58:31 <Vorpal> ddrescue -f -n /dev/hda /dev/hdb logfile
20:58:31 <Vorpal> ddrescue -d -f -r3 /dev/hda /dev/hdb logfile
20:58:46 <Vorpal> well that one will copy to another disk
20:58:52 <Vorpal> as in, not to an image file
20:59:06 <Vorpal> you probably want to copy to an image file instead
20:59:35 <alise> image file on /what/?
21:00:03 <Vorpal> alise, on a partition on a larger disk
21:00:12 <Vorpal> alise, that is the most sensible way
21:00:27 <Vorpal> alise, since it was a laptop disk I doubt it is 1.5 TB
21:00:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web_, used or not won't matter here
21:00:58 <Vorpal> it will be the full 100 GB needed
21:01:25 <Vorpal> and yes 100 GB fits easily onto most desktop drives of 4 years ago even
21:02:00 <Vorpal> heck it would even fit on a semi-modern laptop drive. 250 GB or such is common for laptops these days
21:02:24 <Vorpal> my thinkpad is a year old and has 200 GB unless I misremember
21:06:34 -!- trinithis has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:09:00 <Sgeo|web_> I think this whole summer onwards I have not been at my best
21:11:08 <Sgeo|web_> I've been wondering if maybe I'd prefer computer repair to programming
21:11:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hey you
21:11:23 <Sgeo|web_> I think I tend to like debugging more than writing code, for instance
21:11:49 <Sgeo|web_> But... I think this whole incident means I should perhaps stick with code
21:11:51 <Vorpal> <Sgeo|web_> I've been wondering if maybe I'd prefer computer repair to programming <-- um, considering recent events I would definitely turn in the door and go to a competitor :P
21:11:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, surely 90% of professional programming is program maintentance?
21:12:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, we need higher level processors, move GC to hardware
21:12:39 <Vorpal> then it won't be like that
21:13:24 <alise> <Sgeo|web_> I've been wondering if maybe I'd prefer computer repair to programming <-- wow, professional programming is uncreative enough!
21:13:40 <alise> Vorpal: moving gc to hw doesn't end maintenance though :P
21:13:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: obvs you only do it on a lisp processor or similar
21:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> What happens when someone invents the Magic GC we want?
21:14:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What about when someone figures out a better way of executing Lisp in hardware?
21:14:43 <alise> That's not upgradable, either.
21:14:57 <alise> you could do it in writable microcode i guess :P
21:15:06 * Sgeo|web_ wonders if Factor can be efficiently run on a Lisp machine
21:15:17 <alise> STOP TALKING ABOUT FACTOR
21:15:23 <alise> it's not a Sgeo-meme, it's just irritating!
21:15:32 <alise> only say something about it if you have an actual comment! please!
21:15:46 <Sgeo|web_> Am I allowed to talk about Mixfix?
21:16:01 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: moving gc to hw doesn't end maintenance though :P <-- it's a magical cure for everything!
21:16:03 <alise> If it's actually interesting
21:16:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's his language
21:16:12 <alise> which should be multifix
21:16:40 <Vorpal> (before you claim I'm trying to ridicule the concept: no, I'm just being silly in general)
21:16:42 <alise> It's not that crazy.
21:16:53 <alise> Coq's system is better, but even crazier.
21:17:03 <alise> "Oh yes, just write out the syntax with spaces and it'll work!"
21:17:12 <alise> parse into a list of tokens then match against things like if_then_else_
21:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, it's a dependent language that thinks it's a theorem prover.
21:17:28 <cpressey> Sgeo|web_: you will fall in love with it now
21:17:57 <alise> Sgeo|web_: I have here a stinking turd.
21:19:48 <alise> No. It is a turd. I made it myself.
21:20:10 <cpressey> and then you chmod 755'ed it. eww.
21:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, anyway; it wants to be a proof assistant, but it lacks various things that you really need to get a nice proof assistant.
21:21:03 <Sgeo|web_> What's a safe place to put my HD when I take it out of the laptop?
21:21:07 <Vorpal> alise, was it agda you said you didn't understand? or was it coq? I remember it was one of them
21:21:57 <alise> Vorpal: i am amateur-alright with coq i.e. i know it but could never prove anything substantial or even medium in it (like most people :P)
21:22:08 <alise> agda i know the language but cannot understand why it's so stupid
21:22:16 <fizzie> Here's a totally cryptic visualization for you: http://zem.fi/~fis/alise_vs_vorpal.png
21:22:24 <alise> and the stdlib is basically 99% random unicode characters picked because they look vaguely related to the operation
21:22:26 <alise> or even just at random
21:22:28 <Vorpal> alise, the language being stupid?
21:22:58 <Vorpal> alise, so what is something like "length of list"? unicode snowman?
21:22:58 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zvCUmeoHpw <-- awesome
21:23:11 <alise> Vorpal: no their list library is like 40 lines long because that's not boring and abstract enough
21:23:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if they are about crazy
21:24:37 <Vorpal> alise, why exactly is that comet displaying cracks with magma?
21:25:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not too weird so far, a bit pretentious I would say
21:25:20 <alise> i mainly linked it for how well the music matches it :)
21:25:34 <alise> for something from about 30 years prior to the video
21:25:39 <alise> (not made for the music)
21:26:06 <alise> anyway it's an asteroid :P
21:26:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Tell him the coinduction syntax!
21:27:04 <Vorpal> alise, yeah that video is not really realistic
21:27:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Coinduction is not performed through the sane method Coq uses.
21:27:33 <Vorpal> alise, they got the scale of that hit very wrong. Not astroid there, most be planetoid
21:27:37 <alise> Vorpal: but it is pretty
21:27:45 <alise> _≈⟨_⟩_ : ∀ x {y z} → x ≈ y → y IsRelatedTo z → x IsRelatedTo z
21:27:45 <alise> _ ≈⟨ x≈y ⟩ relTo y∼z = relTo (trans (reflexive x≈y) y∼z)
21:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> There is an infinity operator which makes a type coinductive.
21:27:48 <alise> erm, without the #
21:28:07 <alise> data Normal : (n : ℕ) → Polynomial n → Set (r₁ ⊔ r₂ ⊔ r₃) where
21:28:08 <alise> con : (c : C.Carrier) → Normal 0 (con c)
21:28:08 <alise> _↑ : ∀ {n p'} (p : Normal n p') → Normal (suc n) (p' :↑ 1)
21:28:08 <alise> _*x+_ : ∀ {n p' c'} (p : Normal (suc n) p') (c : Normal n c') →
21:28:08 <alise> Normal (suc n) (p' :* var zero :+ c' :↑ 1)
21:28:08 <alise> _∶_ : ∀ {n p₁ p₂} (p : Normal n p₁) (eq : p₁ ≛ p₂) → Normal n p₂
21:28:12 <Vorpal> alise, and I don't think land will be torn up that cleanly like it they were just a texture :P
21:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover> And the *musical sharp sign* is used to lift a value into its coinductive type.
21:28:38 <alise> data Rec {a} (A : ∞ (Set a)) : Set a where
21:28:38 <alise> fold : ♭ A → Rec A
21:28:50 <alise> ∞ : ∀ {a} (A : Set a) → Set a
21:28:50 <alise> ♯_ : ∀ {a} {A : Set a} → A → ∞ A
21:28:50 <alise> ♭ : ∀ {a} {A : Set a} → ∞ A → A)
21:28:59 <Phantom_Hoover> So *you cannot tell easily* whether a function is coinductive or not.
21:29:06 <alise> i'm trying to find that wonderfu lthing
21:29:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, now it went over my head
21:29:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: when quantifying on levels you have to use ℓ
21:29:28 <alise> why? because ascii is too easy
21:29:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, Coq and Agda are strongly-normalising; recursion is very carefully restricted.
21:29:45 <alise> type-signature : ∀ {a} (A : Set a) → A → A
21:29:45 <alise> type-signature A x = x
21:29:45 <alise> syntax type-signature A x = x ∶ A
21:29:48 <cpressey> geez, and here I am wondering why Agda overloaded ? for so many purposes
21:29:49 <alise> hey they added syntax definition
21:30:20 <alise> -‿homo : Homomorphic₁ ⟦_⟧ F.-_ T.-_
21:30:20 <alise> GroupP.left-inverse-unique T.+-group ⟦ F.-_ x ⟧ ⟦ x ⟧ (begin
21:30:20 <alise> T._+_ ⟦ F.-_ x ⟧ ⟦ x ⟧ ≈⟨ T.sym (+-homo (F.-_ x) x) ⟩
21:30:20 <alise> ⟦ F._+_ (F.-_ x) x ⟧ ≈⟨ ⟦⟧-cong (proj₁ F.-‿inverse x) ⟩
21:30:21 <alise> ⟦ F.0# ⟧ ≈⟨ 0-homo ⟩
21:30:24 <alise> This is a proof in Agda.
21:30:27 <alise> No, it does not make any more sense once you know Agda.
21:30:33 <alise> All I can say is "no homo".
21:31:02 <cpressey> all of unicode at your fingertips and you picked UNDERBARS?
21:31:12 <alise> huh they use ... instead of ellipsis
21:31:29 <Vorpal> why is there anything below codepoint 127 at all
21:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> No; underscores are strictly forbidden in Agda syntax.
21:31:46 <alise> they are there in the declarations
21:31:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: only for operators
21:31:54 <cpressey> truth and falsehood are the first two higher spirits
21:32:12 <alise> ≈⇔≈′-set : ∀ {c} {C : Container c} {X : Set c} (xs ys : ⟦ C ⟧ X) →
21:32:12 <alise> xs ≈[ set ] ys ⇔ xs ≈[ set ]′ ys
21:32:28 <alise> ×◇⇿◇◇× : ∀ {c} {C₁ C₂ : Container c}
21:32:29 <alise> {X Y} {P : X → Set c} {Q : Y → Set c}
21:32:29 <alise> {xs : ⟦ C₁ ⟧ X} {ys : ⟦ C₂ ⟧ Y} →
21:32:29 <alise> ◇ (λ x → ◇ (λ y → P x × Q y) ys) xs ⇿ (◇ P xs × ◇ Q ys)
21:32:36 <alise> Yes, ×◇⇿◇◇× is an ACTUAL DEFINED NAME.
21:32:43 <alise> I am not shitting you. No, it is not displaying incorrectly (unless it's question marks).
21:32:49 <alise> Also, that's just the type signature.
21:32:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~nad/listings/lib/Data.Container.Any.html#4950
21:33:18 <Vorpal> alise, I think there is a tvtropes entry about not having any sense of scale. And it applies to that youtube video you linked. While a astroid can be huge. It won't be like that. That would be like a dwarf planet hitting us when it comes to the size
21:33:26 <alise> Vorpal: Shut up it was cool.
21:33:28 <Vorpal> not sure about the effects though
21:33:31 <alise> It was probably meant to be a planetoid.
21:33:43 <Vorpal> alise, yeah so wrong title
21:33:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's like they looked at mathematical notation and what they took from it was "using lots of strange symbols is good".
21:33:52 <fizzie> alise, Vorpal: Hey, you guys are *really* similar. Here, let's have a plot of your line lengths, versus an uninterested third party (myself): http://zem.fi/~fis/len.png -- the Y scale is log(frequency) for that length, the X scale is message body length; summed over 2009-01-01 - 2010-08-31 again.
21:33:58 <alise> Vorpal: But pretty, nonetheless, and with well-synchronised music.
21:34:16 <alise> fizzie: Clearly, we are soulmates.
21:34:23 <ais523> meanwhile, my new compression algo is now beating bz2 on the test file I'm using (a C-INTERCAL tarball)
21:34:27 <Vorpal> alise, alise overlaps you
21:34:31 <alise> Is that length of messages?
21:34:38 <ais523> although it's still a long way behind lzma
21:34:41 <alise> sounds like a song line
21:34:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, alise overlaps you at the end
21:34:45 <alise> "Alise, alise overlaps you!"
21:35:01 <alise> ais523: describe it?
21:35:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no there's more
21:35:18 <alise> ƛ-/✶-↑✶ : ∀ k {m n t} (ρs : Subs T m n) →
21:35:18 <alise> ƛ t /✶ ρs ↑✶ k ≡ ƛ (t /✶ ρs ↑✶ suc k)
21:35:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, my graph looks oddly flat at the bottom for some part
21:35:21 <alise> ·-/✶-↑✶ : ∀ k {m n t₁ t₂} (ρs : Subs T m n) →
21:35:21 <alise> t₁ · t₂ /✶ ρs ↑✶ k ≡ (t₁ /✶ ρs ↑✶ k) · (t₂ /✶ ρs ↑✶ k)
21:35:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, same for the other ones
21:35:32 <ais523> the basic idea is to build the original data into a tree
21:35:36 <ais523> and then deduplicate the tree
21:35:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, when they get 300+
21:35:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Something like that!
21:35:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is happening there
21:36:00 <ais523> starting off with a binary tree, but optimising it into an n-ary tree
21:36:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I have a wonderful one.
21:36:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, and what is up with the peak for alise at a bit over 450? Full length lines resulting in line break?
21:36:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's probably when the absolute counts of occurrences of particular lengths go to 0. It's at different Y height because the fraction of count "1" depends on how many messages there have been in total.
21:37:01 <fizzie> And yes, peaking at the end is probably because of the IRC length limits.
21:37:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Coq gives a tactic language to help you transform propositions to assist proof.
21:37:23 <ais523> the major issue is to find an efficient way to encode the resulting tree
21:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Agda requires you to construct proof functions *by hand*.
21:37:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder why mine ends earlier? I mean, I know I have sent lines that got broken over several
21:37:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Untrue! There is a program that's basically type signature -> term. :P
21:37:58 <alise> Not that that helps much.
21:38:06 <alise> Vorpal: I have a shorter name?
21:38:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Maybe your automatic line-breaker is playing it safe rather than sorry?
21:38:09 <alise> So I get to fit more in.
21:38:23 <Vorpal> probably a c combination
21:38:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It's all right, except that it's a dwarf planet, not an asteroid, and there aren't any tidal forces.
21:39:24 <Vorpal> alise, no you must sed the regex
21:39:33 <fizzie> "AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/AnMaster" (which is what many of those lines probably had) *is* quite a bit longer than "alise!~alise@[ip here]", that's true.
21:39:57 <Vorpal> should change my ident I guess
21:41:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, applying some sort of smoothing function might be interesting to make it easier to actually interpret the data in the noisy areas
21:41:33 <fizzie> I could fit some sort of mixture-model distribution there, that might make sense.
21:41:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, also do such plots for everyone of the top speakers in here, then try to match up people :D
21:41:49 <fizzie> Also added ais523 to the plot, though it's in danger of getting seriously crowded.
21:41:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, like, what about you and oerjan? Or ais523 or oerjan?
21:42:18 <Vorpal> ais523, some sort of distribution of irc line length http://zem.fi/~fis/len.png
21:42:43 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:42:49 <ais523> the topic was too long for me to see the link to the logs
21:42:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, and ais523 is significantly different from you and me
21:43:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: I should probably make some sort of interactive thing where you can choose the names and get a customized plot, but not today.
21:43:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, that would be awesome. Is it fast enough for that?
21:43:33 <ais523> Vorpal: I know how to get the full topic, how do you think I shortened it?
21:43:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, also what is "mixture-model distribution"?
21:43:44 <Vorpal> ais523, so why shorten it?
21:44:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: I could precalc the counts for everyone (or at least top 100 or so), then the actual displaying would be fast enough.
21:45:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: And mixture-model distribution is just something where you take a random variable X with a probability K from distribution D1, and with (1-K) from distribution D2; it's a nice way of fitting parametric distributions to something that doesn't quite follow a "real" distribution (Gaussian, gamma, exponential, whatever).
21:45:44 <fizzie> (In general case there can of course be more than two components.)
21:46:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, a bit hard on those end bits though
21:46:54 <ais523> hmm, now I'm lost in logreading
21:46:59 <ais523> I should do that more often, #esoteric has great logs
21:47:23 <ais523> nice to see Quintopia here
21:47:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, it s a lot more well defined near the base. Maybe something that extrapolates missing data or something, if that makes any sense
21:48:21 <ais523> as for that debate about the ironic Comic Sans T-shirt
21:48:31 <ais523> find a font that looks like Comic Sans to most people, but isn't
21:48:34 <fizzie> Oh, just today we had a Intel guy talking about modeling long-tailed distributions (in network traffic anomaly detection) with a two-component mixture of Pareto and exponential distributions, especially to handle that tail end of rare events well. (That's where I sort of got the idea from.)
21:50:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:50:31 <ais523> alise: random insane idea: use powers of 1012 for measurements, in order to help silence the kB/KiB debate
21:50:52 <ais523> it'll be about right no matter what measurement system you're used to
21:51:58 <fizzie> It will also be somewhat wrong in all cases, too.
21:52:15 * pikhq curses at US labor laws
21:52:23 -!- Flonk_ has joined.
21:52:32 <pikhq> Now, then. Anyone want to guess how many days off a US employer must give to employees?
21:53:01 <pikhq> ais523: Nice guess, but actually wrong.
21:53:20 <ais523> well, I think there probably are states with stricter laws on this than federal laws
21:53:32 <ais523> given that they differ on things like notice requirements
21:53:48 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:54:00 <ais523> my next guess would be 0, or maybe 1
21:54:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: Try lower.
21:54:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, that was a low one
21:54:25 <ais523> OTOH, why would you agree to an employment contract that didn't give you at least some time off?
21:54:31 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:54:35 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
21:54:43 <pikhq> ais523: Are you familiar with the concept of "wage slavery"?
21:55:04 <ais523> pikhq: I'm aware with the original meaning, but it doesn't seem likely to apply nowadays
21:55:45 <ais523> it's when you somehow cause someone to owe you a lot of money, then offer them a job and accommodation to help pay it back, charge for the accommodation such that the amount they owe you doesn't actually go /down/
21:56:08 <ais523> and the whole thing ends up being equivalent to slavery, but more legal
21:57:10 <pikhq> ais523: Many Americans have actually gotten themselves in a similar situation.
21:57:29 * Phantom_Hoover wonders whether to write "Journey to Alpha Centauri" for real.
21:57:30 <ais523> nowadays, there's the option of claiming bankruptcy, which is probably preferable to slavery
21:57:49 <pikhq> And because people are morons, back to debt!
21:58:13 <pikhq> (or because they're under student loans, which cannot be bankrupt upon)
21:58:26 <ais523> in the UK, it's pretty much the opposite
21:58:40 <ais523> if you manage to live until retirement age and somehow still haven't managed to pay off your student loan, it's written off
21:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, it would crash into the limit for a 64-bit clock too early.
21:59:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what would?
21:59:43 <ais523> (and it's paid the same way as tax is, thus unless you move abroad or something like that, it's basically impossible to fail to pay it off if you can afford to)
22:00:03 <Vorpal> * Phantom_Hoover wonders whether to write "Journey to Alpha Centauri" for real. <-- what was/is that
22:00:36 <pikhq> It's nearly impossible to get out of student loans without just paying them off in the US...
22:01:03 <pikhq> Lessee. Permanent and total disability.
22:01:23 <pikhq> Courtesy of the "bankruptcy reform" bill of 2005.
22:01:30 <Phantom_Hoover> It shows a little white dot on the screen, and if you wait for 2 million years or so, the dot fills the screen, and it shows a message saying "You have reached Alpha Centauri. Now go home."
22:01:39 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe you should just play a few games of Desert Bus and see if it cures you of that idea.
22:02:01 <ais523> you could effectively get rid of them by taking out a loan to get the money to pay them off, then defaulting on that loan, but it seems a pretty bad idea
22:02:18 <ais523> especially as nobody should sanely offer you that loan in the first place
22:02:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh Johnny books?
22:02:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I seem to remember it now
22:02:32 <ais523> also, the advantage of that over Desert Bus is that at least you don't have to be at the controller all that time
22:02:52 <pikhq> ais523: Sane loan offers? The US? HAH!
22:03:12 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe you should just play a few games of Desert Bus and see if it cures you of that idea. <-- desert bus?
22:03:20 <pikhq> ais523: Until recently, people were taking out 4th mortgages. I wish I were joking.
22:03:55 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and just about any moron with the ability to breath can get a bunch of credit cards. Still.
22:04:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: See something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Bus -- but to summarize, you drive a bus for 8 hours, continuously, at a straight road with no other traffic, and the bus veers slightly so that you can't just tape the gas button down.
22:04:37 <pikhq> America: the nation of morons.
22:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, would I be wrong to assume that you are active in politics?
22:04:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Not wrong at all.
22:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> But I thought the US system screwed anyone more than very moderately left?
22:05:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hell, screws anyone not right.
22:06:20 <pikhq> I hate it and I'd like out of the crazy-go-round please.
22:06:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Look at the fuss over something as simple as Obama's healthcare bill.
22:07:22 <pikhq> (dear God Japan has more liberal labor laws. And these guys have overworking as a major *cause of death*)
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22:08:14 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes.
22:08:24 <pikhq> Japanese corporate culture is... Kinda stupid.
22:08:43 <pikhq> "Work all day, drink all night, fuck having any life outside of work!"
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22:12:59 <cpressey> due to the discussion of labor laws, I assumed Desert Bus was a job rather than a video game.
22:13:30 <cpressey> like, the non-stop Phoenix-Las Vegas-Los Angeles run, or something.
22:13:49 <cpressey> Well, i guess having Vegas in the middle means there is ONE stop. OK.
22:14:18 <pikhq> http://i.imgur.com/DT2eQ.gif Seriously. The fuck?
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22:16:14 <pikhq> Oh, and there's categories of employees exempt from overtime laws.
22:17:24 <pikhq> "Administrative, professional and executive employees".
22:17:49 <pikhq> Namely, white collar jobs.
22:19:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, I would have expected some sane list like "nuclear reactor workers in case of emergency, or if everyone else on the other shift died"
22:19:43 <Vorpal> similar for firefighters and so on
22:19:48 <Vorpal> in case of emergencies
22:20:02 <pikhq> Rather than the majority of workers?
22:20:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, so these people don't get paid overtime?
22:21:04 <pikhq> Are not required to be paid overtime.
22:21:17 <pikhq> And, in fact, could be required to work, say, 24 hours a day.
22:22:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm. Unpaid for this overtime?
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22:23:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, the employer loses on it, sleep deprived workers are less efficient
22:23:46 <cpressey> time is an illusion in corporate america
22:24:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, wrong. Corporate US.
22:24:19 <pikhq> Oh, exempt employees are *also* exempt from minimum wage laws.
22:24:20 <Vorpal> America is a lot more than just US
22:25:08 <cpressey> Vorpal: the phrase is "corporate america" whether you think it's wrong or not. no one says "corporate US".
22:25:34 <Vorpal> cpressey, so what about South America? Mexico? Canada?
22:25:56 <cpressey> Vorpal: you're being ridiculously pedantic here
22:26:43 <Vorpal> no. I'm being non-US-centric
22:27:31 <Vorpal> cpressey, "ridiculously pedantic" would include Panama and so on in the North America list apart from Mexico and Canada.
22:27:32 <cpressey> Vorpal: then at least be pedantic enough to call it "USA", not "US".
22:27:42 <Vorpal> well, not sure about Panama, but some small countries
22:27:56 <Vorpal> cpressey, indeed I would in Swedish. Everyone says USA about USA here
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22:29:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm? Chess reference?
22:33:00 <cpressey> Vorpal: What? Why would I make a reference to the game of chess? What possible relevance could that have to anything?
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22:33:37 <Vorpal> cpressey, what did you mean by that then
22:36:27 <Vorpal> hm btw, I think this line contains a chess reference
22:36:31 <Vorpal> if I remember correctly
22:36:52 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, can you spot it?
22:37:03 <Vorpal> it is worthy of oerjan
22:37:39 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, "En passant (from French: in passing)", in passing, by the way
22:37:41 <GreaseMonkey> http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/milky_makes_me_feel.mod
22:39:54 <Vorpal> <GreaseMonkey> http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/milky_makes_me_feel.mod <-- augh please include a warning like "this is not something that Gregor would have composed" :P
22:40:28 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, besides you do something strange with left/right channel, sounds like optimised for speakers, rather than headphones
22:40:32 <GreaseMonkey> also if you want something more cheerful: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/gm-poo.it
22:40:39 <Vorpal> since there is no sound of the opposite side on the other end
22:40:47 <Vorpal> which soulds horrible in headphones
22:41:21 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, is the package in arch
22:41:26 <Vorpal> I don't feel like compiling anything
22:42:27 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, so vlc should soft pan?
22:42:52 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, okay. Well it doesn't for me. Besides can't you set that in the file?
22:43:05 <GreaseMonkey> thing with the .mod format is it's always L/R/R/L
22:43:13 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I'm pretty sure MIDI has some 127-step pan value or such
22:43:38 <GreaseMonkey> the .it format has 65 steps (0 through 64, 32 being centre) as well as "surround" (flip right channel)
22:43:43 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/gm-poo.it at least doesn't hard pan
22:43:54 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, but not my style either
22:44:00 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I prefer acoustic :)
22:44:37 <GreaseMonkey> the point of gm-poo.it (it's an edited 1hc entry) was to make it incredibly cheesy
22:44:39 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, love violins played solo.
22:45:02 <Vorpal> letting them just form strings in the background is a sad waste of the capability
22:45:08 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, and yes it is
22:45:32 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, btw what is 1hc?
22:45:46 <fizzie> Aka "fast music" in other places.
22:45:48 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, so it plays in a loop for 1 hour or what?
22:45:56 <fizzie> You have one hour time to make the thing.
22:46:28 <fizzie> Usually they give out samples or chords or something that you're supposed to use, to show that it's made after those were released.
22:46:36 <fizzie> (But of course you can prepare.)
22:46:36 <GreaseMonkey> i guess but you can't guarantee that you have the right samples for it
22:46:54 <GreaseMonkey> and you can't actually bash the pattern data in beforehand
22:47:21 <Vorpal> true, but you can think of a general melody and so on
22:47:35 <GreaseMonkey> http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/gm-pond.it is kinda fun, if you don't like drums then try muting channels 08 through 11
22:47:55 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I have emacs :P
22:48:08 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I'm pretty sure I used some hex mode in it before
22:48:21 <Vorpal> and I have bless, which is some semi-crappy gnome based hex editor
22:49:15 <fizzie> Ooh, especially zeroing will be easy with just dd.
22:50:12 <GreaseMonkey> if you're concerned about electric, imagine it's an acoustic bass (it could well be actually)
22:50:24 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, and I have nothing against drums in general. Only because that would leave no way to describe the hate I feel for organs in general and church organs in particular
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22:51:07 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, and electric guitar is fine as long as there is absolutely no overdrive or other screech noises
22:51:44 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, still sounds very electronic. Nothing like an acoustic recording
22:52:06 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, you would need some rather low end earbuds to not hear the difference :P
22:53:03 <cpressey> GreaseMonkey: this is your .mod?
22:53:16 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, wrt playback device: I'm using Beyerdynamics DT150 Studio Monitoring headphones (circumaural of course)
22:53:37 <cpressey> GreaseMonkey: nice. i don't think i could write anything in just an hour
22:53:45 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, so far from those hypothetical crappy earbuds
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22:53:56 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, and to me those sound like various rather electronic instruments
22:54:16 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, not sampled?
22:54:36 <oerjan> <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, "En passant (from French: in passing)", in passing, by the way
22:54:47 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, well it sounds incredibly electronic to me :P
22:54:50 <oerjan> wait, you think _btw_ counts as a chess reference?
22:55:04 <oerjan> that is _not_ a pun worthy of me, in fact it's sheer idiocy
22:55:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, rather far fetched one yes
22:55:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, but yes worthy of yoy
22:55:30 <Vorpal> and perhaps of yoy too
22:55:42 <GreaseMonkey> btw this is the original 1hc version of gm-poo.it for comparison: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/pootastic.it
22:55:42 * oerjan does not like the direction of recent pun discussions :D
22:56:22 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, pads being?
22:56:43 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, which sort of string instruments
22:57:41 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, also sounds incredibly artificial to me :P
22:59:03 <GreaseMonkey> btw this features a vacuum cleaner sample fed through resonant filters: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/vactopia.it
22:59:06 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I have heard a few mod files (or .it or whatever, that family of file formats anyway) that sounded similar to real acoustic. But note _similar_. Still not the same.
22:59:43 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, never heard of that. I think it was game music for some open source game
23:00:15 <Vorpal> blobwars or old old supertux perhaps? Or perhaps some completely different game
23:00:37 <Vorpal> I know both of those I mention used mod style files
23:00:48 <Vorpal> supertux switched to ogg later on
23:01:20 <Vorpal> one of the guys imported old music and rewrote it in rosegarden and used high quality soundfonts to render it to good *.ogg
23:01:33 <Vorpal> so I think it can't have been from that
23:02:38 <GreaseMonkey> http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/butts/gm-trance.vgm <-- WIP done for sega master system
23:02:55 <GreaseMonkey> also if you want a VGM player: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/stuff/vgmplay.py.txt
23:02:56 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, "http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/vactopia.it" <-- I can't discover any vacuum cleaner
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23:04:09 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, "http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/vactopia.it" <-- I can't discover any vacuum cleaner
23:05:08 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, your script, what does it require?
23:05:19 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I have jackd + alsa setup here.
23:05:29 <Vorpal> does it need anything crazy like OSS or pulseaudio?
23:05:36 <Vorpal> ah hm compat modules then
23:05:56 <GreaseMonkey> if you're not convinced there's a vacuum cleaner, try listening to it in mikmod
23:06:15 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I don't have mikmod, nor can I find it in the arch repos
23:06:28 <Vorpal> oh the library is there
23:06:40 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, long live hardware mixer of sb live 5.1, or this would be painful. (oss stuff)
23:07:10 <alise> <Vorpal> does it need anything crazy like OSS or pulseaudio?
23:07:12 <alise> OSS is not crazy :(
23:07:27 <Vorpal> alise, not ossv4 maybe
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23:08:04 <alise> yeah ossv4 is nothing like ossv3
23:08:04 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, that .vgm file sounds very screechy?
23:08:09 <Vorpal> is it supposed to be that way?
23:08:36 <Vorpal> alise, I meant the oss-alsa compat stuff in the vanilla kernel
23:08:49 <GreaseMonkey> Vorpal: it's sega master system - 3 square waves and a noise channel (which can also do a very low duty square)
23:09:17 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, ah explains the painful sound. Not my style simply. I prefer sine
23:09:26 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, what was that about
23:09:30 <Vorpal> your script printed that
23:09:57 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, why would anyone want to play noise?
23:10:07 <GreaseMonkey> Vorpal: because some people like to have drums
23:10:20 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, oh fitting description of drums :D
23:10:37 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, but more seriously, how do you get drums = noise
23:10:45 <Vorpal> it seems like nonsense to me
23:10:59 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, yes and are drums that?
23:11:14 <GreaseMonkey> no but they can be produced to some extent by using it
23:11:27 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, your track had no drums though?
23:11:40 <alise> This novel is great (so far).
23:12:10 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, didn't sound like ones to me. But then I'm a acoustic fan with high expectations
23:12:46 <oerjan> <alise> it's merely a hivemind incident <-- ok _that_ one was worthy of me
23:12:59 <alise> oerjan: wait, it wasn't a joke
23:13:10 <alise> because of the borg reference
23:13:18 <alise> in which case, yeah, i only realised that after i said it :D
23:16:16 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, if you can reproduce http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Liszt-La_Campanella-Greiss.ogg in one of those mod style formats so it sounds non-artificial I will be impressed
23:16:25 <Vorpal> without using just one huge sample or such of course
23:17:13 <alise> You know, there is room for music outside of acoustic performances of classical pieces.
23:17:29 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. But this was generic challenge
23:17:40 <alise> Mehhh one or two Gorillaz things are nice enough.
23:17:50 <alise> Most of it's rubbish though. (I haven't actually listened to their latest album though.)
23:17:59 <alise> Wow, my tastes are eclectic...
23:18:19 <cpressey> alise: their first album is pretty good overall, with some weak points, yes. their later stuff -- not as good.
23:18:20 <Vorpal> alise, I love zelda - a link to the past music. Which is not classical acoustic.
23:18:25 <GreaseMonkey> that could be pulled off as a .it file, not really a .mod file though as it doesn't have enough channels really
23:18:45 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, well I'm fine with that :)
23:18:53 <alise> cpressey: yeah the first is nice ("Rock the House" is fucking awful though)
23:19:03 <alise> everything after that is patchy
23:19:18 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, but how tricky would reproducing the echos and so on be?
23:19:36 <alise> <GreaseMonkey> i found "shoeshine" irritating ;; who's this to?
23:19:50 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, and the use of pedal
23:19:53 <cpressey> GreaseMonkey: you mean 19-2000?
23:20:06 <cpressey> i like the vampire song, whatever that one's called
23:20:10 <alise> either you mean 19-2000 or Starshine :P
23:20:18 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, around 4:30-5:00 it sounds hard even for .it to me
23:20:23 <Vorpal> though I'm no .it expert
23:20:41 <alise> the remix of 19-2000 is irritating
23:20:43 <alise> the original is fine
23:21:12 <GreaseMonkey> to get echo going really well i'd have to find out how to sample w/o echo
23:21:29 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, true, and it's echo from walls and such.
23:21:46 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, which gives it a lot more natural feeling that most tracker based music
23:21:53 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, and what about the sustain pedal?
23:22:21 <GreaseMonkey> that's essentially just not doing a note-off when you change notes
23:22:29 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, sustain pedal is not like just holding down the key really, it gives resonance in other strings in the piano that would otherwise be dampened
23:22:35 <Vorpal> so no it is not the same
23:22:44 <alise> "Unlike brainfuck Brainfuck-- uses 32 binary bits as a way to store memory, the first 8 bits is used with the input/output instruction, the rest can be used for other things."
23:22:51 <alise> we need a real punishment system for publishing dialects like this
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23:23:17 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, hm indeed. would take a lot of samples. And explains why it takes a 72 MB soundfont file to even get halfway decent piano sound.
23:23:23 <alise> i suggest taking a hint from bed bugs and institutionalise stab rapes
23:23:25 <alise> (http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1604)
23:23:25 <Vorpal> I think that is the smallest soundfont I have around
23:23:36 <alise> psht mt-32 piano is juust fine
23:23:47 <alise> default mt-32 piano, that is, the beautiful thing about the mt-32 was that it was reprogrammable...
23:23:52 <Vorpal> alise, I'm not sure Gregor would agree
23:24:01 <Vorpal> or rather, I'm sure he wouldn't
23:24:06 <alise> mt-32 actually predated general midi...
23:24:08 <alise> but it wasn't just a sound card
23:24:15 <Vorpal> alise, mt-32 must have been very early yeah
23:24:31 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/05/MT_32.jpg
23:24:33 <alise> it's bigger than it looks there
23:24:42 <alise> but it was nice, you see that display?
23:24:46 <alise> games often used it to put little messages there
23:24:56 <alise> like just the title of the game or whatever, little easter egg for mt-32 users
23:24:59 <GreaseMonkey> but i think i'll have to have several samples per note
23:25:04 <alise> and since the sounds were programmable and it was all analogue it sounded amazing
23:25:21 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, that is an adaption of a violin piece by Paganini to piano. Liszt adapted it. Whatever it sounds like it is pure piano.
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23:25:31 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, the bell like effect is from playing near the top of the piano
23:25:54 <Vorpal> alise, games used that?
23:26:11 <alise> the music from them is unreal
23:26:15 <Vorpal> alise, must have been expensive
23:26:24 <alise> pretty much only the devs and a few crazy people had them
23:26:27 <alise> it was for more than games ;)
23:26:35 <alise> but yeah, it was lovely
23:26:37 <Vorpal> alise, didn't it reduce sales of games
23:26:45 <alise> no, they worked on adlib too, and soundblaster
23:26:46 <Vorpal> if you had to have such a thing
23:26:47 <alise> just didn't sound nearly as good
23:27:01 <Vorpal> alise, yeah but thats roland
23:27:05 * alise tries to find a nice mt-32 game clip
23:27:16 <Vorpal> alise, Roland *is* good. My digital piano is Roland.
23:27:22 <alise> mt-32 is roland too :P
23:27:31 <Vorpal> alise, meaning: good for it's time
23:27:48 <Vorpal> crap compared to my modern sound card I bet
23:28:07 <Vorpal> though, probably better build quality
23:29:29 <alise> no way, the default amidi samples are far superior
23:29:35 <alise> and your sound card is NOT reprogrammable
23:29:37 <Vorpal> alise, oh the default ones surely
23:29:41 <alise> this is why mt-32 imitation sounds suck
23:29:46 <Vorpal> alise, it is based on EMU10k
23:29:47 <alise> but nobody reprograms it as well ;)
23:29:50 <Vorpal> alise, so programmable DSP
23:29:52 <alise> Vorpal: two nice mt-32 compositions:
23:29:53 <Vorpal> but yeah no one does it
23:29:58 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3dB0qEcG20#t=0m15s
23:29:58 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApX60Y8djPI#t=4m30s
23:30:02 <Vorpal> but in *theory* mine is reprogrammable
23:30:09 <alise> those #t=s are important
23:30:15 <alise> to avoid a lot of rubbish
23:30:28 <Vorpal> alise, unlikely to work in youtube-dl?
23:30:34 <alise> Vorpal: just download them then skip to that time yourself
23:31:45 <Vorpal> <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3dB0qEcG20#t=0m15s <-- I have heard this on pc-speaker before I think...
23:31:54 <Vorpal> or something very similar
23:31:56 <alise> the mt-32 version makes the game so much more hifi :)
23:32:31 <Vorpal> alise, more hifi than the image :P
23:32:51 <alise> Vorpal: speaking of game music of that era, Monkey Island II (although meant for adlib or soundblaster, not MT-32, by then) has a wonderful thing called iMUSE. It's a point-and-click adventure, you know the type. One of the defining ones, actually... brilliant game. Anyway, iMUSE. It handled seamless transitions in music from one scene to another. This wasn't just cross-fading. Oh no. The current music would continue playing until one of a predefined set of
23:32:52 <alise> points (quite often), and it'd then go the a specific transition (I think some of them were semi-automated from different start/end points) from that part of that music to the new music.
23:32:52 <Vorpal> alise, I would expect zelda oot quality 3D graphics to that sound at least
23:33:36 <alise> So you'd walk into the carpenter's place, and the music would quickly and unnoticeably turn into the carpenter's slightly-different blend of the main music for the town. (Actually his wood chops were synchronised to the beat...)
23:33:52 <alise> You could even walk to the map and go to the very-differently-musiced swamp without anything unnatural happening, because it was all paced programmatically.
23:33:56 <Vorpal> alise, I heard of iMUSE before yes
23:34:02 <alise> it was invented for MI2 though
23:34:08 <alise> and it was never used to that extent anywhere else
23:34:18 <Vorpal> I knew it was invented for a game in that series yes
23:34:26 <alise> (MI1/2 are very recommendable plays, incidentally.)
23:34:56 <alise> (I assume you know of ScummVM.)
23:35:00 <Vorpal> I always thought about it, but never got around to it
23:35:16 <Vorpal> alise, does scummvm emulate mt-32 though?
23:35:23 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, actually!
23:35:27 <alise> Vorpal: You need to get some ROMs.
23:35:29 <alise> But, you know... not hard.
23:35:40 <alise> Then you turn on the MT-32 emulator, point it at them... and voila; almost perfect.
23:35:51 <Vorpal> alise, I played some scummvm games before.
23:35:53 <alise> Not absolutely perfect, obviously; the original MT-32 was analogue.
23:35:57 <Vorpal> but I think those had recorded audio
23:36:13 <alise> Vorpal: yeah, the CD release of MI1 has the MT-32 tracks recorded onto CD-Audio which it uses
23:36:19 <alise> because it cuts off just like that
23:36:31 <alise> when you move somewhere else
23:36:35 <alise> the current sound doesn't even fade out
23:36:40 <alise> it just cuts the sound out and plays the new track
23:36:44 <alise> since it's switching to a new CD track
23:37:13 <alise> MI1 is a short game (but challenging). MI2 is, like, twice the length or more. And a lot harder.
23:37:29 <alise> Vorpal: listened to those videos?
23:37:46 <Vorpal> alise, waiting for the second one to download. getting 30 kb/s
23:37:56 <alise> heh, not the best speed
23:38:09 <alise> it's lolworthy how good the music sounds compared to the graphics
23:39:07 <Vorpal> alise, and the MT-32 of the second video sound better than the first half indeed
23:39:29 <alise> the mt-32 theme of the second one is impressive
23:39:39 <alise> like, I don't hear "oh, old computer music"
23:39:42 <Vorpal> alise, and yes, the sb is a better match to the graphics quality
23:39:59 <alise> at 7:53 in that second video there's some nice music too
23:40:01 <alise> (the background music)
23:40:19 <alise> the guitar sound is very good
23:40:43 <Vorpal> haven't gotten there yet
23:41:05 <Vorpal> alise, a lot more listenable than the first half
23:41:11 <oerjan> <alise> Vorpal: can you translate "across the universe" for me? <-- genom universum perhaps?
23:41:14 <alise> listening after the main theme is mostly pointless, it's just little blips of flavour music
23:41:21 <alise> oerjan: gehennom universum
23:41:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, that is "through the universe"
23:41:34 <alise> down and out in the universe
23:42:02 <Vorpal> I can't think of word for "across" in this sense.
23:43:27 <alise> From one end of the universe, to the other: across it.
23:44:00 <Vorpal> alise, wrt monky island, I would say that pc speaker version is more impressive. In the sense "wtf, is that possible with a pizeo electric buzzer!?"
23:44:50 <oerjan> Vorpal: i think "across" is pretty much a synonym for "through" in the context of that song quote
23:45:23 <Vorpal> "across the field" would be quite different
23:45:43 <alise> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DLoSAb1-bc
23:45:46 <alise> pc speaker monkey island 2 opening
23:45:52 <oerjan> although, maybe "tvärs genom" would be better? except for rhythm of course
23:45:53 <alise> even more impressive than MI1's
23:46:06 <alise> especially the arpeggios
23:46:09 <alise> which sound better on a real pc speaker
23:46:31 <oerjan> that's actually further from the original meaning
23:46:34 <alise> ((What it's meant to sound like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lTz2nkPNXA))
23:46:37 <Vorpal> alise, I'm already listening to it
23:47:39 <Vorpal> alise, I just found it on /mnt/old-disk-images/mnt/gentoo/home/anmaster/tmp/misc/7DLoSAb1-bc.mp4
23:48:00 <Vorpal> alise, which indicates a malfunction in /mnt/old-disk-images/mount-stuff.sh
23:48:07 <Vorpal> since it is supposed to go to /mnt/gentoo
23:48:13 <Vorpal> not /mnt/old-disk-images/mnt/gentoo
23:48:26 <Vorpal> alise, so not quite as lunatic as it might look like
23:48:44 <alise> Vorpal: no, no, that isn't the lune part
23:48:45 <oerjan> or is it. tvärs genom _would_ mean from one end to the other, i think.
23:48:50 <alise> (what is the adjective of something relating to a lunatic?)
23:49:01 <Vorpal> alise, however while checking the various youtube files in it I found the autotuned Carl Sagan too
23:49:24 <Vorpal> alise, which bit is the lunatic part?
23:50:07 <alise> the fact that you (1) have a script to (2) mount disk images from old systems you have archived which (3) includes your temporary files, and (4) you actually looked at it before trying to (5) download a video from YouTube instead of just manning up and installing Gnash or something.
23:50:07 <Vorpal> alise, for reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc
23:50:27 <Vorpal> alise, and those tmp files are not really tmp. Well it started out as tm
23:50:33 <Vorpal> but ended up permanent
23:50:37 <oerjan> alise: tricky, since -ic already means related to, and has been nouned _from_ an adjective there
23:50:39 <alise> Good name for a permanent directory.
23:50:46 <alise> (I use ~/Saved for that kind of stuff. Or, well, did.)
23:50:52 <Vorpal> alise, and that disk image was from ddrescue, I don't edit anything on it
23:51:01 <Vorpal> beyond the initial fsck
23:51:11 <oerjan> lunatical, perhaps, mixing even more greek and latin
23:51:56 <Vorpal> alise, wrt: (4) and (5): I knew it was in that dir, and there are like 4 youtube videos in there
23:52:07 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: wI9% tNO CARRIER).
23:52:09 <alise> lunatical, a beautifully lunatical word
23:52:11 <Vorpal> quicker to check them than googling for it
23:52:25 <alise> Vorpal: see what i did is i clicked a link and the video played :)
23:52:34 <Vorpal> alise, because I linked it!
23:52:46 <Vorpal> that was a different one
23:53:00 <Vorpal> alise, you had to find the link though
23:53:13 <oerjan> "nouning" is nicely verbed, adjectivally speaking
23:53:44 <alise> Vorpal: yeah i typed "monkey island 2 pc speaker", pressed enter, then clicked the first link on google, which was to a video
23:53:53 <alise> it was... strenuous :)
23:53:56 <Vorpal> alise, no sound in 6lTz2nkPNXA ?
23:54:18 <Vorpal> or hm .flv, did those have sound last?
23:54:20 <alise> Vorpal: it doesn't start with sound
23:54:30 <alise> on a video game :)
23:54:39 <alise> (you run MONKEY2.EXE, and that appears straight away)
23:54:49 <oerjan> alise: lunattic, like a place to keep mad old relatives?
23:54:53 <alise> oerjan: or the moon
23:55:02 <Vorpal> to have quietness in a video game
23:55:13 <alise> Vorpal: the rest of the game has (great) music :-P
23:56:12 <alise> well technically you ran MONKEY2 and it probably did its copy-protection thing (you had to give something from the manual -- or something) and then asked you if you wanted the real or lite (easy) version
23:56:18 <alise> then it went to the cold open
23:56:35 <Vorpal> alise, is "<alise> ((What it's meant to sound like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lTz2nkPNXA))" mt-32?
23:56:36 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=290XnObHxVs ;; oh, I do like the Amiga opening
23:56:39 <alise> Vorpal: no; adlib or soundblaster
23:56:45 <alise> mt-32 doesn't sound as good on MI2
23:56:52 <alise> since by then they realised /nobody/ bloody had one (1991)
23:56:59 <alise> so they optimised for the cards people actually had
23:57:08 <Vorpal> and it sounds better there then?
23:57:19 <Vorpal> it sounds quite nice, though not mt-32 quality
23:57:32 <alise> ha, MI2 came on *11 disks* for the Amiga
23:57:56 <alise> dammit, now i have to play the games again *sigh*
23:58:05 <alise> nostalgia can be like heroin. well, only if you're Sgeo
23:58:19 * alise installs ScummVM in advance
23:59:26 <Vorpal> alise, wait a second. Nostalgia? How so?
23:59:38 <alise> I played them (badly) as a kid.
23:59:46 <Vorpal> alise, ah, they are before your time though
00:00:08 <alise> i was only born 4 years after MI2 came out ;)
00:00:32 <alise> so half a decade after MI1 :P
00:00:44 <Vorpal> alise, lets see, when was that
00:00:48 <alise> but who noticed that sort of crap as a kid?
00:00:52 <alise> Vorpal: i was born in 1995.
00:00:55 <alise> MI1 came out in 1990; MI2, 1991.
00:02:36 <Vorpal> hm I can't say I played MI1 either, being slightly less than 1 year I couldn't really get enough pressure on the keyboard however much I tried. ;)
00:03:26 <alise> i had MI1/MI2/MI3 on three CDs (MI3 took up two CDs) and copied save games to a floppy disk :)
00:03:36 <alise> (separated parents, so i took it along... ...yeah, I was a nerd.)
00:03:49 <alise> and I had Universal Hint Service with the data files on another floppy
00:04:20 <Vorpal> alise, that's cheating
00:04:36 <alise> no, that's being young and having no fucking idea for a puzzle for something like two hours straight
00:04:41 <alise> and remember UHS gave very obscure hints first
00:04:43 <alise> then slightly less obscure
00:04:47 <alise> until it finally told you the literal solution
00:04:52 <alise> so often it served as a mere memory jog
00:05:14 <Vorpal> I never played MI, never got around to it
00:05:23 <Vorpal> so many other things to do.
00:06:23 <Vorpal> alise, and I'm more into RPGs than point and click anyway
00:07:18 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I currently use tmp as a real tmp in my current home dir
00:07:23 <Vorpal> and move stuff to videos or such
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00:25:33 <alise> Wow, they've revamped tripod.com...
00:26:03 <alise> At least the frontpage design.
00:26:05 <alise> http://www.tripod.lycos.com/
00:26:14 <alise> "Tripod - Succeed Online"
00:26:20 <alise> Example site: "Ultra Mega Pizza".
00:26:39 <alise> I like the random person trapped in the webpage, trying to climb out.
00:27:57 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:30:53 <Gregor> alise: Web pages eat tens of people every year.
00:31:00 <Gregor> alise: It is a serious problem!
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01:08:27 <Gregor> quintopia: "Hi" is unlikely to elicit a reaction from most of the people in this channel.
01:09:03 <quintopia> i didn't have to elicit a reaction. people were already talking.
01:09:10 <oerjan> well, i _considered_ making the lo pun again
01:10:06 <quintopia> someone explain how fungot has a net connection? i wasn't aware funge98 had networking?
01:10:06 <fungot> quintopia: the interesting parts of the library and use a loop to write in the program we continue to), which is frowned upon.
01:10:15 <Gregor> oerjan: "Lo Pun" would be a good fake name for Chinese food :P
01:10:27 <oerjan> it uses a fingerprint for networking, i think
01:10:36 <Gregor> quintopia: I don't know about fungot in particular, but I imagine its stdout and stdin are just mapped to a socket connected to IRC.
01:10:36 <fungot> Gregor: i found a way to dynamically bind it.
01:10:40 <quintopia> oerjan: it's okay. i use lo as the default response too.
01:10:50 <oerjan> unless it just uses netcat and stdin ... right
01:11:09 <quintopia> that would, uh, be the smart thing
01:11:22 <Gregor> Works well for IRC anyway.
01:11:28 <Gregor> For other protocols it would ... not work so well :P
01:11:42 <oerjan> quintopia: well fungot already uses lots of _other_ fingerprints i believe, so it wouldn't be strange if it also used a networking one
01:11:42 <fungot> oerjan: the only funny knock knock jokes are the funniest... i'm into software!
01:12:07 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure about this.
01:12:43 <oerjan> i recall ais523's thutubot used the stdin/stdout trick though, since thutu has only simple I/O
01:14:13 <oerjan> quintopia: but as a general rule, i think funge98 is one of the implemented esolangs with most available extra stuff. maybe modern INTERCAL can compete.
01:14:37 <oerjan> the majority of esolangs only do stdin/stdout at best
01:14:54 <Sgeo|web> Hey, add PSOX, and they can do more!
01:17:00 <fungot> oerjan: i don't think you need just some 50 more metres and i'm home. away, must to h to take care of family business first), what is
01:17:22 <oerjan> 's first responses looked eerily appropriate again
01:17:44 * quintopia notes the annoying placement of ' on most keyboards
01:18:00 <Sgeo|web> If I use Ubuntu, can I load it into memory and then take out the disk?
01:18:52 <quintopia> sgeo: if you use a stripped-down-enough build, possibly. most ubuntus are very fat tho
01:18:57 <alise> <Gregor> quintopia: I don't know about fungot in particular, but I imagine its stdout and stdin are just mapped to a socket connected to IRC. ;; wrong
01:18:58 <fungot> alise: reminds me of something my dad once ran a script on the website somewhere
01:19:00 <alise> it uses SOCK and SCKE
01:19:22 <alise> <oerjan> quintopia: but as a general rule, i think funge98 is one of the implemented esolangs with most available extra stuff. maybe modern INTERCAL can compete. ;; the only networking INTERCAL can do is its crazy INTERCAL-specific system of theft
01:19:59 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:20:07 <oerjan> alise: doesn't INTERCAL have an ffi though... bah
01:20:25 * Sgeo|web wonders what alise's claimed advantages of Ubuntu over Knoppix are
01:20:30 <Sgeo|web> I don't need installability right now
01:21:17 <oerjan> no idea, it was just too obvious not to say
01:21:22 <Sgeo|web> Anyways, I have a disk with ddrescue
01:21:36 <Sgeo|web> And I can always burn Ubuntu later
01:25:44 <Sgeo|web> Also, I haven't used KDE in a very long time
01:25:57 <Sgeo|web> And Knoppix helped me get into Linux in the first place
01:29:17 <ais523> oerjan: C-INTERCAL has FFIs to C and Befunge-98
01:29:45 <ais523> also, CLC-INTERCAL supports good old-fashioned TCP as well, as an extension
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01:34:36 <quintopia> i don't really get why people put so much effort into INTERCAL
01:35:05 <ais523> to show serious language designers/ecosystems what they /should/ be doing
01:35:13 <quintopia> it doesn't really demonstrate any interesting possibilities in computing
01:35:39 <quintopia> it being so incredibly dreadfully slow at the most basic compute tasks
01:37:36 <ais523> INTERCAL is much faster at arithmetic
01:37:40 <ais523> because it operates in binary rather than unary
01:38:20 <ais523> adding two integers, for instance, is O(n) in BF, O(log n) in INTERCAL
01:38:28 <ais523> although admittedly, in a saner language it would be O(1)
01:39:51 <ais523> O(log n) for both for bignums
01:40:08 <ais523> but it's probably simpler in INTERCAL
01:40:41 <quintopia> perhaps it was the implementations then
01:40:43 <pikhq> ais523: Well, except for optimising implementations of BF, which make addition O(1).
01:40:47 <pikhq> But I'm not sure that counts.
01:42:37 <ais523> pikhq: except that optimising implementations of INTERCAL make (standard library) addition O(1) too?
01:42:47 <ais523> so it's not really a sensible way to compare
01:43:04 <ais523> (C-INTERCAL doesn't currently optimise the single-statement multithreaded version)
01:43:15 <quintopia> actually, order approximations are not a good way to compare in general
01:43:50 <quintopia> by order approximations, apples and oranges are equivalent
01:44:06 <ais523> well, if order approximations show things are different, they're /different/
01:44:20 <ais523> and everything else depends on things like the relative speeds of the computers you test on, what languages you compile via, etc
01:44:31 <pikhq> ais523: And of course, a sufficiently optimising compiler may turn your complex NP problem into a simple run on a quantum coprocessor. :P
01:44:55 <quintopia> unless BPP is a strict subset of NP
01:45:12 <ais523> quintopia: pikhq didn't say NP-complete
01:45:37 <pikhq> And it is known that there are at least some NP problems with efficient quantum implementations.
01:45:42 <ais523> not to mention, NP-complete problems tend to be solved quite quickly in practice in most cases
01:45:59 <ais523> obviously not in general, but you can come up with algorithms that work, say, 99% of the time
01:46:07 <quintopia> well, all problems of a fixed size are O(1)
01:47:08 <quintopia> ah, you mean like how the Simplex alg has exponential time worst cases for some convex bodies under ANY heuristic?
01:47:14 <quintopia> (isn't that the way that result works?)
01:48:24 <ais523> also, the way that you can efficiently come within quite a narrow margin of error, 5% or so, in the travelling salesman problem
01:48:53 <ais523> yes, that's a different point
01:48:54 <quintopia> directed TSP doesn't have anything better than a 2-approx at the moment, iirc
01:49:33 <quintopia> there was a neat algorithm involving simplifying spanning trees to make it a non-directed alg, it may have been slightly better than 2
01:49:43 <quintopia> but either way, there is certainly no PTAS at present
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02:12:47 <quintopia> what would be the best sort of programmable chip to get on which to implement my own ISA?
02:13:17 <pikhq> quintopia: FPGA of course.
02:14:13 <quintopia> specific brand though, in terms of speed, price, ease of use?
02:14:20 <quintopia> is there one with a built-in clock?
02:18:18 <ais523> although you generally get them on evaluation boards which have clocks
02:18:31 <ais523> the manufacturers seem to go out of their way to make them hard to use, though
02:18:42 <ais523> at work, me and my boss spent over a month trying to set one up and failing
02:18:53 <ais523> in the end, they hired someone who'd already managed it at a different job to work on it fulltime
02:19:05 <quintopia> i want one i can create a circuit and sim it on my computer, and then just plug in the chip, press a button, and it'll program it
02:19:12 <ais523> I'm not sure how it went, but it's telling that the board that's in there /now/ is by a different manufacturer
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02:35:37 <Sgeo|PM> According to wget, 250M has been downloaded
02:35:53 <Sgeo|PM> According to Task Manager, 159MB is in use
02:41:55 <quintopia> alright what's the best regular ole user-programmable chip out there in terms of price/speed/ISA feature set?
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02:49:37 <Sgeo|PM> Dear task manager: There is no way in fscking hell that only 183MB are being used right now
02:50:26 <Sgeo|PM> What's the easiest way to find out where / is mounted?
02:52:32 <oerjan> (the ? was not part of the command btw)
02:53:08 <Sgeo|PM> How usable as a temporary OS is DSL?
02:53:26 <Sgeo|PM> More usable than, say, Parted Magic?
02:53:52 <quintopia> i suspect puppy would be the best bet here
02:54:24 * Sgeo|PM does not particularly feel like booting up his old comp
03:02:49 <Sgeo|PM> I can save to my writable DVD with Puppy?!?!?!?
03:03:48 <quintopia> that seems tricky. you may need to install some things.
03:05:37 <Sgeo|PM> Parted Magic thinks that Chromium should be the default filesystem browser
03:09:09 <Sgeo|PM> Let me write to the DVD, dang you!
03:14:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
03:18:00 <Sgeo|PM> DOES PARTED MAGIC NOT INCLUDE DRIVERS FOR WRITING TO DVDs?
03:18:08 * Sgeo|PM has old Knoppix lying around
03:18:20 <pikhq> Sgeo|PM: Odd; it should.
03:18:40 <pikhq> Protocol-wise, a DVD drive appears as a CD drive with a very large disc.
03:19:17 <Sgeo|PM> dd if=lupu-511.iso of=/dev/sr0
03:19:36 <Sgeo|PM> dd: opening `/dev/sr0': Read-only file system
03:19:57 <Sgeo|PM> Is there any way to confirm this GUI thingie's claim that the drive is /dev/sr0?
03:20:06 <Sgeo|PM> /dev/scd0 also gives the same thing
03:20:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
03:21:29 <Sgeo|PM> /dev/sr0 /media/cdrom1 auto defaults,ro 0 0 #cdrom
03:21:34 <pikhq> That's *not how you burn a DVD*.
03:21:47 <pikhq> Pull up the cdrecord man page.
03:23:45 <Sgeo|PM> -multi can't hurt, can it?
03:24:07 <pikhq> You probably want it for a Puppy disc.
03:25:10 <Sgeo|PM> cdrecord -multi lu...whatever the thing's name was
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03:31:19 <quintopia> what would it take to convince skype to bring skype for linux up to version 5?
03:33:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
03:35:41 <pikhq> Eliminating all other OSes.
03:35:49 <pikhq> With sexual favors.
03:36:47 -!- Sgeo|PL has joined.
03:37:26 <oerjan> i guess sexual favors help with that, too.
03:37:33 <Sgeo|PL> This client feels like Pidgin :/
03:39:35 <Sgeo|PL> I think I'm in love with Puppy Linux
03:41:06 <pikhq> Sgeo|PL: Well, Puppy Linux is basically what happens when you start with Ubuntu and make it not suck.
03:41:35 <Gregor> Well hello there Windows. How about you ... cease existence and become a service that runs on top of Linux. Maybe if I ... /sweeten/ the deal?
03:42:05 <Sgeo|PL> PL's version of Firefox is old
03:42:22 <Sgeo|PL> version of Flash player, which it shouldn't have.
03:42:32 <Sgeo|PL> So I guess Firefox's start page is hallucinating
03:44:55 <Sgeo|PL> Can Flash be installed on Puppy Linux?
03:46:35 <pikhq> Should be in the package manager.
03:46:40 <pikhq> If not, apt-get install
03:47:09 <quintopia> well, ever since it came to pass that windows applications can hose your bootloader, there is no other safe way to run windows except in a VM on top of linux.
03:47:29 <Sgeo|PL> main, multiverse, universe?
03:49:00 <Sgeo|PL> Maybe I should attempt to get Knoppix to work :/
03:49:15 <Sgeo|PL> This is not particularly comfortable
03:53:03 <Sgeo|PL> Did Puppy Linux just come with Flash /preinstalled/?
03:53:09 <Sgeo|PL> I just downloaded the Flash .pet
03:53:19 <Sgeo|PL> Didn't confirm install yet
03:57:40 <Sgeo|PL> I really, really, like the lock thing
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04:18:28 * quintopia tries Illumination Software Creator
04:31:33 <quintopia> well, i'd like to try it anyway, but i, uh, can't figure out the name of the executable it installed
04:37:00 <pikhq> Erm. Insufficiently German.
04:40:37 -!- Sgeo|Puppy has joined.
04:41:38 <oerjan> You're cursed, i've said. You cannot be saved!
04:42:07 <pikhq> Didſt þou try archaic orþographic conventions?
04:43:11 <pikhq> oerjan: Hey, it's not *juſt* Japaneſe þat gets þe unuſual orþography treatment from me.
04:44:11 <pikhq> Pity I'm too lazy to uſe ð right.
04:44:56 <pikhq> It requires me to þink about þe phoneme þat way!
04:46:45 <Sgeo|Puppy> To find out more about the differences between misdemeanor and felony statutory rape, including the statutes of limitations on each, contact your state Attorney Generals Office.
04:47:04 <Sgeo|Puppy> Yeah, just go imply to the AG that you... wait, is there some sort of confidentiality thing there?
04:47:12 <Sgeo|Puppy> Surely it would make sense to ask a private lawyer for advice?
04:47:27 <Sgeo|Puppy> No, I have not committed statutory rape, in case anyone is wondering
04:50:37 * quintopia sucks the oil of oerjan's seeds to make paint
04:51:01 <quintopia> if at first you don't suck seed...
04:51:02 <pikhq> quintopia: Yeah, but they're all NORSE and stuff
04:51:40 <quintopia> THEY COME FROM THE LAND OF THE ICE AND SNOW WHERE THE MIDNIGHT SUN AND THE HOT SPRINGS BLOW
04:52:24 <oerjan> AND THE POLAR BEARS ROAM THE STREETS
04:55:45 <quintopia> "polar bear" and "jkullhlaupt" confused?
04:55:58 <quintopia> feel free to move that diaresis as needed
04:56:14 <Sgeo|Puppy> I need to configure touchpad behavior somehow
04:56:38 * oerjan adjusts quintopia's jokemeter
04:57:10 <Sgeo|Puppy> I tried some configuration thing (not gsynaptics, I think)
04:57:20 <Sgeo|Puppy> Complained about possibly a missing synaptics driver
04:57:35 <quintopia> you were making fun of possible uncommon misconceptions of iceland, whereas i was making fun of the fact that THE RING ROAD GETS WIPED OUT REGULARLY BY VOLCANOS
04:58:33 <oerjan> actually i wasn't particularly talking about iceland
04:58:50 <quintopia> but it's the last bastion of the norse!
04:59:15 <quintopia> and possibly the only source of norse epics!
05:01:37 <quintopia> what's the best personal programmable microchip in terms of balancing price with usability?
05:02:51 <quintopia> i don't need anything complicated. just good speed and a bunch of I/O pins.
05:02:58 <quintopia> and easy to use interface board/software
05:06:27 <Sgeo|Puppy> Into a witness-protection-program-like-thing
05:08:08 <quintopia> if you take care with hostmasks and routing and such, you could return to your old online identities being careful not to let them got back to your new real life identity
05:09:17 <Sgeo|Puppy> Was worried about the fact that I've revealed my RL identity, but that identity would be disappeared
05:15:25 * oerjan hopes this is very very hypothetical
05:16:30 * oerjan swats quintopia -----###
05:16:43 <Sgeo|Puppy> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/16/national/main6873992.shtml is what started me thinking about this
05:17:17 <Sgeo|Puppy> I promise it has no connection to my statute-of-limitations questions earlier
05:17:47 * oerjan doesn't feel like reading such stories anyhow
05:26:18 <pikhq> I do hereby declare US politics fundamentally broken. Nothing short of eugenics can fix it.
05:26:39 <Sgeo|Puppy> Did something happen in the last few minutes?
05:26:43 <quintopia> eugenics broke it in the first place
05:26:51 <pikhq> Sgeo|Puppy: Nothing politically notable, no.
05:27:12 <pikhq> Sgeo|Puppy: Just a long-delayed reaction to the sheer stupidity of EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING.
05:27:49 <pikhq> Basically, US politics for the span of, oh, my *life* has been THE SINGLE MOST STUPID FUCKING THING.
05:28:13 <pikhq> "Hmm. The muslims hate us and want to kill us. What should we do?" "Make them hate us?" "BRILLIANT! BURN THE KORAN!"
05:28:21 <quintopia> your life is far too short of a span to measure the stupidity of american politics on
05:28:29 <quintopia> i suspect you were not alive for the red scare
05:28:45 <pikhq> quintopia: Ah, yes. It has been pretty stupid for the past century.
05:28:52 <pikhq> FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUu
05:29:15 <pikhq> Oh, wait, before that we had the argument that slavery was beneficial to black people.
05:29:20 <pikhq> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
05:29:28 <Sgeo|Puppy> At least most people consider the Red Scare an embarrasement
05:29:58 <Sgeo|Puppy> Except for some people on the board of education in Texas
05:30:49 <quintopia> pikhq: don't forget between that argument and the bomb, there was a legitimate govt-sanctioned eugenics program
05:32:05 <Sgeo|Puppy> "*install python first*" says a thing in my package manager
05:32:30 <quintopia> pikhq: perhaps you should take some time off and study the political histories of other countries, so that you can generalize "US politics are stupid" to "politics are stupid"
05:32:57 <pikhq> quintopia: I am somewhat familiar with other nations' politics. The US's is just DRAMATICALLY stupid.
05:33:18 <pikhq> Perhaps it's more just that the past's stupidity didn't get recorded as well as modern-day stupidity does.
05:33:27 <pikhq> But WHAT THE HELL PEOPLE.
05:33:40 <pikhq> "THEY HATE OUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM NOW TAKE AWAY THEIR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM"
05:33:47 <pikhq> HOW DOES THIS MAKE ANY FUCKING SENSE YOU MORONS
05:34:18 <quintopia> at least i have the political freedom to choose which sort of stupidity i like best
05:34:43 <quintopia> it may be inefficient, but it's that or have some single person's stupidities imposed on me
05:35:02 <quintopia> i'd much rather be forced to go with the will of the many than the will of one
05:35:05 <pikhq> I welcome the robot uprising.
05:35:14 <pikhq> I fucking welcome the motherfucking robot uprising.
05:35:25 <quintopia> now that will be one thing the human race can be proud of
05:35:48 <ais523> UK politics is pretty stupid, but US politics is clearly even stupider
05:35:55 <quintopia> although that reminds of that early subnormality about the singularity...
05:36:01 <ais523> at least in the UK we get the occasional draw
05:36:05 <pikhq> ais523: And you guys have *actual, honest-to-god nazis*.
05:36:14 <pikhq> And somehow the US is stupider.
05:36:28 <ais523> pikhq: not actually in politics, not at the moment
05:36:50 <ais523> they got voted out again almost instantly when people noticed that they'd been voted in, everything before that was just a lack of paying attention
05:36:59 <pikhq> The BNP has two seats in the European Parliament still.
05:37:25 <ais523> the thing that riles me most about the BNP is that even if you completely ignore their policies on immigration, the rest of their policies are batshit insane too
05:37:27 <quintopia> and this one: http://www.viruscomix.com/page338.html
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05:38:03 <ais523> still, I'm glad that sort of party exists, just to help prevent the other parties collapsing in a mess in the middle US-style
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05:38:22 <pikhq> ais523: They want to end the freaking EU. I cannot fathom the stupidity that could bring this about.
05:38:28 <ais523> the remaining parties have to be careful not to become /too/ identical in order to prevent the BNP (or at the other extreme the Communist Party) actually winning
05:38:39 <ais523> pikhq: that's actually quite a prevalent viewpoint in the UK
05:38:46 <ais523> even though I personally disagree with it
05:38:51 <pikhq> Oh, right, the UK has a bunch of morons.
05:39:13 <pikhq> That's been one of the few undeniably good things in international relations in the past, oh, century!
05:39:41 <ais523> the main argument against is that it's very expensive and doesn't really do a lot
05:40:12 <pikhq> Seems to me to have done rather a lot.
05:40:32 <pikhq> Schengen alone justifies it.
05:40:46 <pikhq> Except the UK isn't in the Schengen Zone.
05:41:06 <pikhq> Except the UK isn't on the Euro.
05:41:23 <ais523> I actually think the Euro is a bit of a dubious idea
05:41:25 <Sgeo|Puppy> Why can't the UK leave and the rest of the EU remain intact?
05:41:35 <ais523> in that it's nailed down a lot of the handles used to help manipulate the economy
05:41:49 <ais523> and the ECB are stuck trying to balance, say, Greece's and Germany's economy, and that doesn't really work
05:42:00 <pikhq> ais523: There's a few implementation flaws which have just now shown.
05:42:55 <pikhq> I'm going to guess, though, the ECB is a bit unused to handling a somewhat disparate economy.
05:43:09 <pikhq> Judging from the US, so's the Fed.
05:43:24 <ais523> part of the issue is that the economies in Europe simply don't make any sense with respect to each other
05:43:35 <ais523> in the UK, both prices and wages are higher than in most of mainland Europe, for instance
05:43:49 <ais523> this doesn't really make logical sense, as you'd assume people would just buy all their stuff abroad
05:43:57 <ais523> (some people actually do this, but most people can't be bothered)
05:43:58 <pikhq> Nor does the US. Keep in mind, it's not so much one nation as it is 50 nations in a federation.
05:44:25 <pikhq> Less so culturally, but very much so economically.
05:44:39 <ais523> yep, but I assume the economy's become at least slightly homogenous due to people being able to trade at will
05:44:47 <pikhq> Not even slightly.
05:45:14 <pikhq> In some areas, $30,000 is a living wage. In others, $100,000 will barely get you a roof over your head.
05:46:01 <quintopia> sorry this is late but i found it: http://www.viruscomix.com/page408.html
05:46:21 <quintopia> hopefully this is how the robotocalypse will go down
05:47:17 <ais523> pikhq: isn't that related to some extent to things like the cost of housing in the areas?
05:47:34 <pikhq> ais523: That is *one* of the major factors, yes.
05:47:35 <ais523> it makes sense for things you can't viably travel far from home for (such as food and housing)
05:47:47 <ais523> less sense for things you could just import
05:48:20 <pikhq> (keep in mind that in the US you need a car to go almost *anywhere*.)
05:48:36 <pikhq> Incidentally: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
05:50:48 <ais523> from what I heard, the US mostly has no viable public transport (with a couple of exceptions in a couple of cities)
05:52:20 <pikhq> Nor are the cities at all walkable, except in the downtown areas of some of the older cities.
05:52:28 <pikhq> (looking at you, East Coast)
05:52:29 <ais523> meanwhile, I pay about £360 a year for unlimited bus travel with the major bus operator in Birmingham
05:52:45 <ais523> and rarely end up asking for lifts as a result
05:53:03 <ais523> (I never learnt to drive, and don't plan to; letting me at the controls of a car probably ought to be illegal)
05:53:12 <pikhq> I'd probably use the local bus system more if it were *at all useful*.
05:53:15 <ais523> well, it's a student discount, the typical value would be quite a bit higher
05:53:36 <pikhq> The bus route near here comes at 8 in the morning and 6 at night.
05:53:51 <pikhq> I have no idea how that's supposed to be usable.
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05:54:33 <pikhq> Oh, and I could not walk anywhere aside from the grocery store. And even that's a couple miles.
05:55:04 <ais523> hmm, even the least frequent bus services here are once an hour
05:55:13 <ais523> apart from extra ones that follow unusual routes for the rush hour
05:55:43 <ais523> the most frequent come about 20 times an hour, in all sorts of slightly different variations
05:55:57 <ais523> (and would be much less annoying if it was "once every 3 minutes", but they tend to end up bunched)
06:00:41 * pikhq is still amazed how Bush got into office the first time 'round
06:01:31 <pikhq> If you think he actually won the election, you'd be wrong.
06:04:04 <ais523> well, he might have; I believe there isn't sufficient evidence to know whether he actually won or not
06:05:08 <pikhq> Formally speaking, he never won the election. The electoral college votes were never submitted.
06:05:19 <pikhq> Instead, the Supreme Court just declared that Bush won.
06:05:42 <pikhq> All Republicans in favor of the decision, all Democrats against.
06:05:47 <pikhq> I wish I were joking.
06:10:55 <coppro> in other news, whiteboards are awesome, and I <3 math
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06:14:48 <coppro> first assignment in uni is far more interesting than anything in high school
06:17:43 <pikhq> Somehow, I believe in human rights and yet want to kill off a massive chunk of humanity right now because the STUPID IT FUCKING BURNS
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09:17:28 <Vorpal> <ais523> meanwhile, I pay about £360 a year for unlimited bus travel with the major bus operator in Birmingham <-- thats expensive
09:17:41 <ais523> not for the UK it isn't
09:17:47 <ais523> it's a lot cheaper than driving, at least
09:18:03 <ais523> but the buses are generally overpriced compared to the rest of Europe, I imagine
09:19:04 <Vorpal> <ais523> hmm, even the least frequent bus services here are once an hour <-- city or countryside?
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09:19:25 <Vorpal> ais523, okay that is quite infrequent then
09:19:32 <ais523> yep, most are much more frequent
09:19:38 <Vorpal> I would say it was average for countryside
09:19:49 <ais523> the once-an-hour buses go quite a way out of the city, maybe even to neighbouring cities
09:20:06 <Vorpal> yeah, about the same around here
09:22:06 <Vorpal> ais523, or rather, about the same in the large city near here. I live in a small town and... apart from the "about hourly" buses to the city there is also one small half-length bus that goes around the town, about three times per day or such.
09:22:30 <ais523> in Birmingham, at least, buses tend to go high rather than long
09:22:40 <ais523> when they want to make them larger
09:22:49 <Vorpal> of course the city bus and the countryside bus never match up for me (I need to switch to get to the university)
09:22:59 <Vorpal> it is always about half an hour waiting between them
09:23:06 <Vorpal> either that or -5 minutes
09:24:47 <Vorpal> ais523, well, the small bus in this town is like a single-deck bus shortened to slightly larger than a van.
09:25:06 <Vorpal> ais523, but here buses go articulated rather than high
09:25:24 <fizzie> I just got a bus ticket for the Espoo region -- the whole Helsinki/Espoo/Vantaa/Kauniainen metropolitan area share bus ticketing systems, and you can buy either one-muncipality tickets or regional tickets -- from today to December 23rd, and that was pretty close to 130 eur.
09:25:30 <Vorpal> a double decked bus wouldn't fit in many places
09:26:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, a ticket for that period?
09:26:35 <Vorpal> for such stuff they use plastic cards, rather than paper tickets around here
09:27:05 <fizzie> Well, I just used the abstract sense of "ticket"; it's a remote-readable card thing that I loaded the "ticket" onto.
09:27:27 <Vorpal> I don't go by bus often enough for it to be worth the cost, so I have one of those plastic cards that you can refill with money. But it costs half the price compared to buying tickets.
09:27:28 <fizzie> Would've been 269.90 EUR for the regional ticket for the whole four-city area, for 98 days.
09:28:33 <fizzie> A 366-day (the longest possible) period would be 982,80 EUR for the regional ticket, 473,10 for inside Espoo; so that's not so far from £360.
09:29:03 <fizzie> I miss the time I was a "real" student; those get a 50 % discount.
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12:13:09 <fizzie> For future log-plotting, made a this sort of thing: http://p.zem.fi/esolog (up until now I've had all kinds of parameter-parsing and logfile/logdb-reading repeated in all of the scripts; also Python just for the change in flavor)
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12:36:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, why not haskell or some such?
12:37:30 <fizzie> No real reason, except that I was more familiar with database and HTTP APIs and such in Python.
12:37:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, for example, if you do some intensive processing of the data to generate an extremely fancy graph you might want to take advantage of multiple cores to speed it up. Which sounds a bit painful in python, with it's global lock thing and so on
12:38:33 <fizzie> I'll probably delegate any intensive processing over to MATLAB anyway.
12:39:05 <fizzie> These are from clog logs this time (2004 and later), since my logs are a bit gappy.
12:39:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, clog also misses stuff sometimes
12:39:28 <Vorpal> so a merge might be useful
12:40:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, and if you and clog were on different sides in a netsplit
12:40:27 <Vorpal> hm how large are the clog logs in total?
12:40:42 <fizzie> In bytes, message counts, or what?
12:40:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, mb if I were to download all of them
12:41:09 <fizzie> In the raw clog format, around 117 MB.
12:42:32 <Vorpal> and db schema sounds simple: serial, timestamp (normalised to UTC, iirc clog switched timezones a few times?), sender, type, data. Where type is like message, notice, part, join
12:42:46 <Vorpal> and data would be message body, quit message or whatever
12:43:56 <Vorpal> for join it could be hostmask
12:44:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does your schema look?
12:44:30 <Vorpal> and hm, how would one normalise the daylight saving stuff and such
12:44:41 <Vorpal> would need a function to compute unix timestamp from date or such
12:45:16 <fizzie> The sqlite db I have for clog has two tables: one with logfiles and their line-counts (to find out which lines are new after fetching updated versions), and the other with columns tstamp/nick/uhost/type/body, where type is a small integer in 0..7 (msg, act, join, part, quit, nickchange, topicchange, modechange) and the rest are strings (since sqlite doesn't really do other types); timestamps are in UTC.
12:46:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did you transform the timestamps back to UTC?
12:46:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, 1) I'm pretty sure it uses daylight saving 2) I seem to remember the server in question moved to a different timezone some years ago
12:47:44 <fizzie> With a Pacific timezone → UTC conversion from pytz's timezone database; the only problem there is the one hour of ambiguous times when clocks are moved back, for those I just let the system guess, unless I actually see in the timestamps a backwards jump; in that case I'll use that to disambiguate.
12:47:53 <fizzie> It does go wrong if it has changed timezones, though.
12:48:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could compare it against your own logs. Like, match up messages, if they aren't within a few seconds of each other something is wrong.
12:49:13 <Vorpal> you don't even need to do it for every message
12:49:20 <fizzie> If there's only messages at 00:30, 01:30 and 02:30 on the day when the time jumps backwards from 02 to 01, you really can't tell from that data what the 01:30 time is.
12:49:55 <fizzie> I could try cross-correlating with my own logs, that's true. I think our timezone warp is at different day, too, so that'd work as a disambiguator.
12:50:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, UTC doesn't wrap so that should make it easy after you normalised the dates to UTC
12:51:08 <fizzie> The actual date of the timezone change has actually changed also in the US too between 2006/2007, but I assume that's taken into account in the timezone tables.
12:51:15 <Vorpal> and, if this would be intensive you don't need to check all, just a handful each day, randomly spread out. Should detect majorly wrong clock as well as moving timezones.
12:52:41 <fizzie> I'll look into that at some point when I have my own logs online; the computer's off right now.
12:53:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, since you need to keep two messages the same second in the correct order and thus need a counter as well as timestamp, you could use that to check for jump backwards
12:53:57 <fizzie> Oh, I don't bother keeping the message order consistent; it changes depending on which server you're looking from, anyway.
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12:55:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, less useful for checking back at old convos then. Still useful for stats though
12:55:39 <fizzie> I think we did have a talk about how there's actually no "proper" way of ordering IRC messages, when trying to decide who was first. (Unless you specify a reference server, of course.)
12:56:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe we should use sequence numbers, like TCP does.
12:58:09 <fizzie> I *guess* the messages from one particular person will retain their internal ordering, even when looking at it from another server -- the IRC servers form a tree, after all, there's no alternative transportation paths that could reorder messages -- which is something my log-db doesn't necessarily, but I'm not sure I care so much.
12:58:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can order them if all clients are running on properly ntp synced computers and you can trust everyone to provide correct local timestamp with sub-second accuracy
12:58:48 <Vorpal> not that I even log sub-second in my own logs
12:59:01 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I *guess* the messages from one particular person will retain their internal ordering <-- yes
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13:00:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, there are also a few other things, like if you have three persons, A, B, C. and have: <A> 1 <B> I saw your 1. then C can not see them in the reverse order
13:01:17 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't really want to do semantic analysis on the message contents to determine whether B is referring to something A said before.
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13:02:04 <Vorpal> I was just pointing out another property where it is known to have a specific order
13:02:56 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/on5o -- distribution of how many events there are for each unique "Y-m-d H:M:S" timestamp.
13:02:58 <Vorpal> meshed irc is tricky, there have been attempts
13:03:11 <Vorpal> but the "one-to-many" property of channels makes it tricky to pull off
13:03:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, how the heck did that happen
13:04:10 <fizzie> Or clog lag, or something.
13:04:24 <Vorpal> anything above 6 sounds unlikely without spam or lag indeed
13:04:30 <fizzie> sqlite> select count(*) as k, tstamp from logs group by tstamp having k > 50 order by k desc limit 5;
13:04:30 <fizzie> 86|2008-12-30 22:04:50
13:04:30 <fizzie> 60|2007-08-13 19:23:13
13:04:30 <fizzie> 60|2009-09-06 23:59:07
13:04:30 <fizzie> 59|2009-12-16 22:19:08
13:04:31 <Vorpal> and even 6 is quite unlikely
13:04:38 <fizzie> There's the top-5 seconds, according to clog.
13:04:54 <fizzie> Those have been UTCified, though.
13:05:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, could be bugs in that?
13:05:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, you said you had uhost? What is it?
13:05:51 <fizzie> Could be. Well, it's UTC-7 or UTC-8 in any case, so... http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.12.30
13:05:54 <Vorpal> since clog logs doesn't include anything but nick
13:06:22 <fizzie> It's there for those messages where it is included. I just put in SQL NULLs for non-existing fields.
13:06:40 <fizzie> 14:04:50 seems to have a whole lot of comments.
13:07:25 <fizzie> Must be some sort of clog issue, then. For that particular second my message ordering's going to be a bit confusing, for reading purposes.
13:07:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, lag I presume
13:08:07 <fizzie> Heh, actually the discussion just above is in fact about clog.
13:08:16 <fizzie> 14:04:49 <oerjan> also, clog just stopped logging it seems
13:10:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, and yeah you could try to merge data from your own source with clog stuff. Useful for a multitude of reasons: 1) detect suspicious timestamps 2) correct for lag like the 08.12.30 case 3) fill in in case of netsplits to get both sides 4) fill in when clog was down
13:11:39 <fizzie> Might be a bit too much work, given that what I'd end up would still just be #esoteric logs.
13:11:51 <Vorpal> I might try to do some similar thing myself on clog + own logs, hm...
13:13:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, does clog not log notices to the channel?
13:13:19 <Vorpal> since you didn't list that as a type
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13:13:53 <Vorpal> the types I can think of are: msg, notice, act, join, part, quit, nick, topic, mode.
13:14:10 <Vorpal> oh well, for science I'm going to test this, I'm sure it will annoy some people
13:14:16 <fizzie> If it does, the formatting is something that got handled by the msg/act regexps.
13:14:51 <Vorpal> "05:14:35 -Vorpal(~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster)- testing clog formatting"
13:15:08 <fizzie> Oh, it's that -nick(uhost)- mess; I only saw server-wide notices like that in the first logs, so I ignored it.
13:15:31 <Vorpal> hm what about other CTCPs....
13:15:44 <fizzie> Those are probably just with the raw ^As.
13:16:01 <Vorpal> I got this in my client from that: -clog- ERRMSG unknown CTCP: TESTINGCLOG
13:16:29 <fizzie> Yeah, it seems to ignore those then.
13:16:38 <Vorpal> what about ping and version though
13:17:08 <Vorpal> (sorry about that in case anyone got highlighted by it)
13:17:59 <Vorpal> anyway, server-wide notices would be from staffers presumably. Should be possible to find some way to detect that
13:18:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, got any sort of handy download script to share?
13:18:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and did you import the esoteric logs from http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/old/ =
13:19:25 <fizzie> No, just the 2004 and later for now. I might add them later.
13:20:34 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/esolog-fetch.py -- that's what I used to fetch the files. It just downloads all the files to a "logs" subdirectory of current dir, and only fetches files that are missing or for which the server's modification timestamp is newer; then it sets mtime based on that after writing the file.
13:21:07 <Vorpal> wget http://p.zem.fi/esolog-fetch.py didn't do well
13:21:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do I get a raw download url for it
13:21:19 <Vorpal> instead of some html formatted thing
13:21:33 <fizzie> Use the download link on the page. Or just http://p.zem.fi/esolog-fetch
13:22:30 <fizzie> I guess something that does HEAD requests to old files to determine whether they need to be updated would be more "accurate", but at least that one has minimal server overhead when re-run, since it just fetches the file listing.
13:23:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I looked at Gregor's hg repo for logs. why is there a fizzie directory in https://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/index.cgi/file/0ad952ce6894 ?
13:24:28 <fizzie> Those are probably some very old logs I had that clog didn't.
13:24:43 <fizzie> There's not much more than a few day's worth of stuff in there.
13:24:57 <fizzie> 1 These are raw logs from fizzie, starting in December 2002. These should fill in
13:24:58 <fizzie> 2 the short gap between 2002-12-14 and 2003-01-17, when clog's logs start.
13:25:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, why 2002-12-14 ?
13:25:53 <fizzie> That's when I joined. Or at least I joined the client that logs.
13:26:09 <fizzie> I think I was in the middle of messing around with the SparcStation at that time.
13:26:18 <Vorpal> well, I remember Gregor saying he didn't want someone to branch his repo due to bw load
13:27:06 <Vorpal> File "./esolog-fetch.py", line 53, in <module>
13:27:06 <Vorpal> f = open(logfile, 'w')
13:27:06 <Vorpal> IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'logs/2004-01-01.log'
13:27:39 <Vorpal> oh maybe that simple *tries mkdir logs*
13:27:44 <fizzie> You should probably do that, yes.
13:27:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't do persistent http?
13:28:31 <fizzie> Probably not, no. Unless urllib2 does it by trickery automatically.
13:28:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, it looked like you closed the connection yeah
13:29:38 <fizzie> I just took what I had in twitter-fungot for posting and adapted that.
13:29:39 <fungot> fizzie: if it's (a b c)
13:29:58 <Vorpal> hm it seems to be fetching over ipv6
13:30:02 <fizzie> Heh, the word length distribution looks a lot more uniform across people than the line lengths I plotted yesterday: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/wlen.png
13:30:07 <Vorpal> and yeah one connection per file
13:30:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I suspect English imposes more constraints on what is possible for this
13:31:21 <Vorpal> and English is by far the most common language in here
13:31:32 <fizzie> In that plot "word" is defined by "things separated by whitespace", which probably explains the few >100-character words.
13:31:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, urls and such yeah
13:32:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it not go further than that? I'm pretty sure I pasted at least one url that turned out to be longer than the irc line length
13:32:47 <fizzie> It does, I just clipped it a bit to focus on the interesting part.
13:33:09 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/wlen2.png for the full view.
13:33:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you use gnuplot to do the plotting?
13:34:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the y scale?
13:35:19 <fizzie> Log-frequency for one particular length.
13:37:51 <fizzie> You can compute the total number of lines for each person in the plot from the Y value of the "floor" where it cuts; for me it's somewhere close to -13, and that obviously corresponds to frequency 1/N where N is my total message count, so log(1/N) = -13 → -log(N) = -13 → N = e^13 =~ 442413.
13:39:52 <fizzie> sqlite> select count(*) from logs where nick like 'fizzie' and type = 0;
13:39:56 <fizzie> My logic seems to have failed.
13:41:59 <fizzie> Oh, I was looking at the word length graph. :p
13:42:08 <fizzie> So it's the total number of words, of course.
13:42:52 <fizzie> Yes, for len.png it's somewhere around -10.5, and e^10.5 =~ 36316.
14:13:11 * Vorpal ponders a db to use for log merging
14:13:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, how large is the sqlite file?
14:13:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, also that timezone normalising code, can you share that?
14:16:46 <fizzie> 244728832 bytes for the sqlite file.
14:17:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, about 233 MB then?
14:18:22 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/esologs-updatedb (with .py for HTML mess) for logs/*.log → logs.db sqlite3 update; it assumes the database has previously been created with e.g. the sqlite3 tool according to http://p.zem.fi/esologs-schema
14:19:18 <fizzie> It ignores those notices, and the "topic X, topic set by Y" messages clog presumably gets when it joins the channel.
14:20:44 <fizzie> There's also a single log file it ignores completely; it looks like the trailing half of some longer thing, it's missing timestamp and everything. Haven't checked which day's log its from.
14:23:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I will definitely adapt it
14:24:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are the numbers in the re_all array?
14:25:19 <fizzie> The type numbers it sticks in the "type" column.
14:25:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, and where is the pytz module from, I don't seem to have it
14:26:07 <Vorpal> oh found the package for it
14:26:14 <Vorpal> I typoed my first pacman search command
14:26:16 <fizzie> In Ubuntu it's called "python-tz" or something.
14:26:43 <Vorpal> python-pytz, but I managed to search for ptyz
14:26:46 <fizzie> (Which is a bit confusing, since a lot of stuff with "pyfoo" names is still called "python-pyfoo".)
14:29:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is "re_ig5 = re.compile(r'-\S*- ')" supposed to match?
14:30:49 <fizzie> -[anything]-, those notices.
14:32:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, so \S is like . ?
14:32:32 <fizzie> No, it's non-whitespace.
14:33:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, why the optional whitespace for act between the nick and the body
14:34:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:34:08 <Vorpal> and hm does "re_notice = re.compile(r'-(?P<nick>[^\( ]+)\((?P<uhost>.*)\)- (?P<body>.*)$')" look like a plausible regexp for notices? I'm more used to PCRE than python style regexp
14:34:19 <fizzie> Because there's one instance where there's just "* EgoBot" in the logfile.
14:35:48 <fizzie> It does look plausible, though I think from-server notices may have looked a bit different. Try it out and see; I wrote those regexps by running everything through (with db-writing disabled) and seeing which log lines that one "invalid body" assertion catches.
14:36:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it use the regexps in that array in order?
14:37:08 <Vorpal> since I intent to write ignores for the server ones
14:37:28 <fizzie> First match wins, yes.
14:38:14 <Vorpal> 2007-01-12.log:11:00:07 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- andreou!i=ee4299@nemesis.ee.teiath.gr disabled notices of #esoteric access list changes
14:40:23 <fizzie> Here's another cryptic visualization: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/alise_vs_vorpal.png
14:40:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty, what does it plot
14:41:01 <fizzie> But wouldn't that kill all the mystery in it?
14:41:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm does python anchor to start of line or something by default?
14:41:45 <fizzie> Yes, if you use re.match; re.search finds matches everywhere.
14:42:05 <fizzie> What is a bit confusing is that re.match won't anchor to end of line; usually it's either a totally free search, or anchored at both ends.
14:42:23 <fizzie> (Or actually start of string, not start of line; but these strings all are one line.)
14:42:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, which one do you use in that script
14:42:52 <fizzie> You can add a .* in the front if you want. Though it's anchored to the part that's after the timestamp.
14:43:23 <Vorpal> actually I wanted to anchor to start (and I did notice it cut away timestamp before)
14:44:29 <fizzie> The mystery plot's Y axis is time, divided into ten-minute bins (24*60/10 = 144); the X axis is message length in characters, with >100 clamped to 100. The color scale is log-frequency, where the frequencies have been normalized across the time bins, so each horizontal line sums to one.
14:45:13 <fizzie> The plot would show how your message length distributions differ during different parts of the day, but really it only shows that for the quiet parts of the day there's mostly noise, and for the rest of the time the distributions are pretty similar.
14:46:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about one for yourself
14:47:04 <fizzie> I have spoken significantly less here, I guess it might be even more noisy. Could try, of course.
14:48:43 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/avf.png -- it got a bit horizontally squeezed, can't quite recall how to change plot dimensions in MATLAB.
14:49:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, they use the same value for the same colour?
14:50:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, why is your so much more blue basically
14:51:05 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/len.png -- for the same reason my peak is lower there.
14:51:39 <fizzie> Wider distribution, so the normalization makes the peak lower.
14:51:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, how long does esologs-updatedb.py take on average?
14:52:09 <Vorpal> as in, should it sit there quiet for minutes when turning off the insert into the db
14:53:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm now it failed:
14:53:23 <Vorpal> AssertionError: invalid log body: --- quit: woo11:09:38 <SimonRC> hi
14:53:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, what the heck is going on there, did you get that too?
14:53:50 <fizzie> Hm, that's strange; I didn't see that sort of line.
14:54:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, checksum for 2006-09-27.log ?
14:54:58 <fizzie> 1c8f11ac3f0df3b43de888ef793d35502b15986edbcb1b6c575a1f039b7086b271d3aa812f513178e59d5a9336e96e8fdb6730346dc7d48de299c0d91e895584 logs/2006-09-27.log
14:55:13 <fizzie> Yes, you seem to like it. :p
14:55:35 <fizzie> 10:21:32 --- quit: woo11:09:38 <SimonRC> hi
14:55:39 <fizzie> There is a line like that in there.
14:56:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, so something ignored it before my change?
14:56:03 <fizzie> Oh, of course: my notice-ignoring line actually ignores that one too.
14:56:18 <fizzie> "-\S*- " matches "--- " just fine.
14:56:50 <fizzie> It probably shouldn't, to catch lines like that; but on the other hand that's a clear mistake in the clog data.
14:57:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, you might miss other --- lines
14:57:17 <Vorpal> should I edit the file or ignore the line
14:57:42 <fizzie> I might; it sounds even likely that I do. Oh well, all my statistics so far have been about simple messages.
14:58:41 <fizzie> Oh, so that's how the aspect ratio is changed; updated avf.png. Now I'll have to leave, won't be back until... uh, now + 5 hours or so.
14:58:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, what you didn't make avf_b.png ? ;P
14:59:18 <fizzie> set(gcf, 'PaperSize', [16 6]);
14:59:18 <fizzie> set(gcf, 'PaperPosition', [0 0 16 6]);
14:59:23 <Vorpal> AssertionError: invalid log body: --- kick: SimonRC was kicked by lament (lament)
14:59:26 <fizzie> That's a really silly way to change plot sizes.
14:59:34 <fizzie> Hee, I'm missing all the kicks too.
14:59:51 <fizzie> Well, I'll rerun with fixed regexps later; now to the bus.
14:59:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, in the updated file your box looks wider
15:00:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, I will send you the updated regexps
15:03:46 <Vorpal> hm kick need two nicks
15:03:56 <Vorpal> I guess nick could be kicker and a new field target could be the kickee
15:04:11 <Vorpal> in case there are more such messages than just kicking
15:06:36 <fizzie> I have that sort of thing for nick-changes.
15:06:56 <fizzie> It puts old nick as "nick" and new nick as "body".
15:07:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm considering "Now I'll have to leave, won't be back until... uh, now + 5 hours or so." I assume you invented the time machine?
15:07:20 <fizzie> I'm in the bus, actually. :p
15:07:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, but kicks have a body too: the kick message
15:07:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, and using the uhost seems... weird
15:08:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, also what is "TEXT COLLATE NOCASE" exactly? Does it store it without case?
15:08:09 <Vorpal> or is it just for indexing?
15:08:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, the reason I wonder is that a nick change like Vorpal -> vorpal would be strange if it was stored without case
15:08:48 <Vorpal> ignoring broken log line: t okay i make this version of nopol simple and remove : and . later :)
15:08:50 <fizzie> The overcomplicated multi-table db schema I have for those postgresql logs (for multiple networks and channels) has a separate target field, I think.
15:08:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, any idea about that?
15:09:42 <fizzie> And "collate nocase" just makes the created index be usable for a case-insensitive "nick like 'foo%'" match.
15:10:07 <Vorpal> 10:17:15 <oklopol> but as that isn't all that easy
15:10:07 <Vorpal> t okay i make this version of nopol simple and remove : and . later :)
15:10:07 <Vorpal> 10:38:54 <oklopol> it's always hard for me not to have my langauge be tc right away
15:10:15 -!- cpressey has joined.
15:10:29 <fizzie> Looks like another clog thing; I just ignored that one.
15:10:42 <Vorpal> 2008-04-20.log is the log file
15:10:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:10:56 <fizzie> It was the only line that didn't match the timestamp regex.
15:12:17 <Vorpal> hm for serial I guess I need to store that in the db
15:14:38 <fizzie> Most likely. The problematic case is when you run updatedb once with a log that ends with X:Y:Z timestamp, and then do fetch+updatedb at some later time, and it has had another X:Y:Z message just after your first fetch.
15:15:06 <Vorpal> ah I can get the serial for free with INTEGER PRIMARY KEY AUTOINCREMENT
15:15:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm? how do you mean?
15:16:58 <Vorpal> free as in "it will use the already existing internal row id column"
15:17:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you avoid dupes/missing in that case currently?
15:18:08 <fizzie> If you wanted to have the "optimal" counter that has just values 0..N for each N+1 messages with a particular timestamp, you'd have to checl the earlier-added lines too. But the row ID is fine too.
15:18:47 <fizzie> There's the logfiles table that counts how many lines have been processed out of each log.
15:19:08 <Vorpal> I don't see the issue with another x:y:z timestamp really here
15:19:47 <fizzie> It's fine as long as you don't fetch in the middle of a line, but maybe those log writes are atomic enough.
15:21:58 <fizzie> The "another timestamp" is an issue only if you want messages 00:00:00-00:00:00-00:00:00-00:00:01 get counter numbers 0-1-2-0, but see only the two first messages during one updatedb.py run; you'd have to manually check the db for the latest message.
15:23:22 <fizzie> Small numbers use less storage, after all. (But the row number uses no storage, so it's even better from that viewpoint.)
15:23:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, what instead might be an issue is merging in other log data. Might be best to put merge resul into a new db anyway
15:24:03 <fizzie> Okay, now actualy really away.
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15:37:18 <Vorpal> what happens when you reach the highest inode on a disk? does it reuse ones old free ones (free due to file having been deleted or such)
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15:45:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: inodes are reference-counted, you know.
15:46:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes but if you touch two files on ext4 at least they seem to get inode numbers incremented by 1
15:46:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, so what I meant is, what happens when you reach MAX_INODE_NUM
15:47:28 <pikhq> It then has to resort to the pool of free inodes rather than doing naive allocation.
15:47:46 <pikhq> It's not like being on disk suddenly makes common memory allocation techniques stop working.
15:48:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, so it uses a freelist for inode numbers or?
15:48:27 <pikhq> Pretty sure it does.
15:49:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, presumably not, since that would be inefficient if you had inode numbers being 32-bit and had like 10 files (all previous ones deleted) when you reached the max inode number
15:49:17 <Vorpal> then wouldn't the freelist take several GB?
15:49:38 <pikhq> I'm going with "clearly they're doing something".
15:49:53 <Vorpal> I go with "I sure hope that they do something..."
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16:00:31 -!- jix has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:03:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, some file systems seems to reuse inode numbers of deleted files right away, like ext4, while some, like ext3 only seem to do that sometimes.
16:03:39 <Vorpal> based on some simple tests
16:04:15 <Vorpal> hard to tell if there is a limit to this for ex4, could try to create lots of small files or such I guess
16:04:52 <Vorpal> hm it seems ext4 groups free inodes per directory!?
16:24:09 -!- webquint has joined.
16:25:52 <Vorpal> sqlite> select count(*) from logs where (nick like 'alise%' or nick like 'ehird%' or nick like 'tusho%') and nick not in ('alise', 'ehird', 'tusho'); gives 60455
16:26:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you match on ehird% for the graphs? After all ehird_ ehirdiphone and so on contribute a significant number of posts
16:27:13 <Vorpal> select count(*) from logs where (nick like 'vorpal%' or nick like 'anmaster%') and nick not in ('anmaster', 'vorpal'); gives just 2925
16:46:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, most common lines: http://sprunge.us/GEjK
16:47:42 <cpressey> it probably doesn't need to keep a freelist of inodes - it probably just picks the next number, sees if it already exists; if not, you get that one, but if so, increment and repeat
16:48:43 <cpressey> which means you could hit pathologically bad allocation behaviour in some circumstances that are probably quite rare in practice
16:49:54 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm, starting at 0 or starting at some higher base line?
16:50:14 <Vorpal> cpressey, and as I said it seems to keep inode numbers in groups for directories
16:50:16 <cpressey> Vorpal: probably starting [over] at 0
16:50:31 <Vorpal> so I don't think it does what you say
16:51:46 <cpressey> Vorpal: you have the source, so feel free to check instead of relying on the speculations of pikhq and myself.
16:52:00 <cpressey> If you do not have the source, to obtain a copy, please write to...
16:53:21 <Vorpal> sqlite> select count(*) from logs where body like '%☃%';
16:54:07 <Vorpal> sqlite> select count(*) from logs where type = 0 and body like '%☃%';
16:54:17 <Vorpal> type 0 is message in case anyone wonders
16:57:59 -!- webquint has quit (Quit: Page closed).
16:59:08 <Vorpal> sqlite> select count(*) from logs where type = 0;
16:59:13 <Vorpal> now waiting for "select count(*) from (select distinct body from logs where type = 0);"
16:59:34 <Vorpal> sqlite> select count(*) from (select distinct body from logs where type = 0);
17:04:59 -!- alise has joined.
17:06:08 <Vorpal> hm 2210 nicks that sent at least one PRIVMSG to the channel but 4913 mentioned in total in clog logs
17:06:30 <alise> it is cold in here
17:07:17 <Vorpal> select distinct nick from logs where nick not in (select distinct nick from logs where type = 0);
17:07:38 <Vorpal> alise, only 35 msg was sent prior to today including ☃
17:08:01 <Vorpal> alise, oh and the most common lines said on this channel were: http://sprunge.us/GEjK
17:08:43 <alise> what have you done?
17:09:00 <alise> well i don't remember any db :)
17:09:38 <Vorpal> alise, I fixed fizzie's script to import clog files into db (it ignored notices and as a side effect also kicks and some other stuff).
17:10:01 <alise> i can only top that with one thing
17:10:05 <Vorpal> alise, before you ask me to upload it:
17:10:22 <Vorpal> you can get the scripts though
17:10:28 <Vorpal> for downloading clog data and for importing it
17:10:39 <alise> i already have every log updated regularly.
17:10:48 <Vorpal> alise, I think you can't reuse previously downloaded clog files, it needs mtime to match that on server
17:10:54 <Vorpal> as far as I understood fizzie
17:10:55 <alise> + 2002-12 -- 2003-12 lgs
17:11:53 <Vorpal> alise, his download script: http://sprunge.us/TaPc
17:12:18 <Vorpal> and my fixed version of the db import script: http://sprunge.us/AigL
17:12:20 <alise> i already have a download script
17:12:25 <Vorpal> alise, "<Vorpal> alise, I think you can't reuse previously downloaded clog files, it needs mtime to match that on server"
17:12:50 <Vorpal> alise, which will in general not be the case if you don't do that manually
17:12:50 <alise> on the clog server? what?
17:12:58 <alise> that sounds like a rubbish script.
17:13:32 <Vorpal> alise, decide for yourself. I think that is how it can fetch partial info
17:13:46 <alise> as i said, there is a way i can top it
17:13:50 <Vorpal> alise, oh and you need the schema:
17:14:07 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/YdVT
17:14:39 <Vorpal> alise, also: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/avf.png
17:14:48 <Vorpal> alise, tell me if you can figure it out without reading log
17:15:14 <Vorpal> alise, nice try but no
17:15:30 <Vorpal> alise, it sounds like an interesting idea though
17:15:52 <Vorpal> alise, any other suggestion?
17:16:00 <alise> yeah, but i'll keep it >:)
17:16:07 <Vorpal> alise, why? I know what it is
17:16:32 <alise> 17:25:44 <Sgeo|web> Also, I haven't used KDE in a very long time
17:16:33 <alise> 17:25:57 <Sgeo|web> And Knoppix helped me get into Linux in the first place
17:16:33 <alise> 17:26:01 <Sgeo|web> I'm feeling nostalgic
17:16:33 <Vorpal> alise, I can tell you, if you don't want to keep guessing
17:16:37 <alise> this is why i told you to fucking use ubuntu
17:16:42 <alise> you're only doing it out of nostalgia
17:16:42 <Vorpal> but if you want to go on guessing that is fine too
17:16:46 <alise> Vorpal: sure, tell me :P
17:16:51 <alise> i thought you meant
17:16:54 <alise> suggestion for new graphs to do
17:17:06 <Vorpal> alise, well, y axis is time of day, divided in 10 minute bins
17:17:18 <alise> i was guessing line lengthg
17:17:30 <alise> this graphs us getting too tired to write lots of shit
17:17:58 <alise> well apart from me
17:17:58 <Vorpal> alise, no, fizzie claimed it was noise due to low activity
17:18:04 <alise> and don't get tired
17:18:55 <Vorpal> alise, well you still do according to your interpretation
17:19:11 <Vorpal> but really fizzie said it was due to lack of data due to low activity
17:19:14 <alise> well yeah but nothing like you do
17:19:19 <alise> i have yellow all the way down
17:19:22 <alise> you have big chasms
17:20:51 <Vorpal> alise, also I think we are a optimistic channel. the line "yes" is almost twice as common as the line "no"
17:21:13 <Vorpal> alise, and "yes" is the most common line
17:22:28 <Vorpal> alise, also how are you going to top this db thingy that both me and fizzie have now?
17:23:24 <alise> Vorpal: one freakin' word.
17:23:36 <Vorpal> what was that now again
17:24:26 <Vorpal> and I'm considering merging my personal logs to 1) detect/fix timestamp mismatches, there exist some due to clog lagging (180 messages in one second iirc) and DST changes 2) supply data for when clog was down 3) add missing data in case me and clog were on different sides of a netsplit
17:24:53 <alise> botte is an IRC bot. A ludicrous definition of course. it will do everything. including: hackego-style sandbox playgrounds... and a web server; it will have fizzie's old logs and all the clog logs, converted to UTC, with a nice web interface -- changeable timezone that takes this into account wrt the date, searches -- fulltext and regexp...
17:25:05 <alise> ...and log new things itself,
17:25:15 <alise> and now: the House of Pointless Statistics.
17:26:02 <alise> 18:35:37 <Sgeo|PM> According to wget, 250M has been downloaded
17:26:02 <alise> 18:35:53 <Sgeo|PM> According to Task Manager, 159MB is in use
17:26:11 <alise> Sgeo has never heard of a filesystem
17:28:23 <Vorpal> alise, how much code is written for it yet?
17:29:05 <Vorpal> alise, as for fizzie's old logs, I have them here, I haven't inserted them yet though... Different format to parse
17:29:38 <Vorpal> alise, I'm a bit surprised that wget uses 159 MB though
17:29:42 <Vorpal> if that is what he meant
17:29:49 <alise> enough swathes of code are right in my head
17:29:52 <alise> i just need the right language :)
17:29:59 <alise> nobody said there's a statue of limitations on oneupmanship
17:30:18 <Vorpal> alise, write it in an esolang. Otherwise fungot is by definition better than botte
17:30:18 <fungot> Vorpal: have you guys seen the 4chan quine? :)
17:30:30 <Vorpal> fungot, no I can't say I have.... that sounds nasty though
17:30:30 <fungot> Vorpal: it shouldn't be any pictures on your computer.)
17:30:37 <quintopia> I need to adjust my highlight list so quine doesn't ping me :/
17:30:46 <Vorpal> fungot, huh that was almost coherent
17:30:46 <fungot> Vorpal: the imperative " track" uses c. 0)) and not just insert a single value
17:30:53 <Vorpal> back to his normal self
17:31:29 <Vorpal> quintopia, idle less, then that highlighting you won't be an issue ;)
17:31:51 <quintopia> well, it's only when i'm not idling that highlights could bother me
17:32:02 <quintopia> i don't notice them when i'm afk...by definition
17:32:30 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, write it in an esolang. Otherwise fungot is by definition better than botte
17:32:30 <fungot> alise: the story tells better if i just spend all my time with schoolwork)))
17:32:32 <alise> fungot can't do this shit.
17:32:33 <fungot> alise: i'm really thinking of something that decides mutability for you. what will perfection in a scheme program and a network has servers is less important
17:32:50 <Vorpal> alise, sure but it is in an esolang!
17:33:44 <quintopia> even my awesome bot is not as awesome as a bot written in an esolang
17:33:47 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:34:25 <alise> Vorpal: it's such a stupid argument that not even you believe it, so i won't bother rebutting
17:34:36 <alise> (wrt anything written in a normal lang being inferior to an esolang)
17:34:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, can you figure out what http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/avf.png is without reading about it in the logs
17:35:02 <quintopia> alise: who said anything about "anything"?
17:35:16 <Vorpal> alise, not inferior in general. Just less cool
17:35:20 <quintopia> the argument is that it takes a whole hell of a lot of coolness to trump "bot written in esolang"
17:35:33 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, write it in an esolang. Otherwise fungot is by definition better than botte
17:35:34 <fungot> alise: t'ain't working, mcgee
17:35:39 <alise> he knew nothing about botte
17:35:56 <alise> thus the conclusion, [unspecified thing] not in esolang < thing in esolang *by definition*
17:35:57 <Vorpal> alise, that was an exaggeration, you use them too you hypocrite
17:36:14 <alise> Vorpal: of course it is, but you kept defending it. also i said nothing personally insulting, so fuck you
17:36:18 <quintopia> and i will tell you if it has a chance of surmounting that mountain of Rule of Cool
17:36:48 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think I did either?
17:36:54 <alise> Vorpal: hypocrite is a personal insult
17:37:11 <Vorpal> alise, I would call it a factual description in this case.
17:37:11 <oerjan> Vorpal: exactly what, no, but it's obviously one of fizzie's log analyses
17:37:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah. Any guesses for what?
17:37:37 <alise> Vorpal: "motherfucker" could be factual too.
17:37:38 <oerjan> well there are three variables
17:38:00 <quintopia> however, "cunt" and "dick" are pretty much never factual
17:38:07 <Vorpal> quintopia, they could be
17:39:05 <Vorpal> oerjan, no further guesses? alise suggested it was a "swearogram" (if I remember the word he used correctly)
17:39:34 <alise> quintopia: all the features of fungot -- ... that is to say, babbling -- EgoBot's user-command definition + huge swathes of esolang interpreters (botte will have more) + HackEgo's arbitrary unix sandboxing stuff, applied throughout (thus many, many *non*-esolangs too) -- a lot of random commands such as pointless-karma-tracking, a quote database (dunno if i'll use hackegos), various random things, etc. -- and a full web interface to the logs from 2002-12 to
17:39:34 <alise> three seconds ago, rendered nicer than the tunes logs, with options to search (fulltext and regexp), user info pages with everything the bot knows about them, timezone adjusting including moving lines to other log dates if required... and a Statistics House -- oh yeah, and infobotty stuff too
17:39:34 <fungot> alise: the second rule of project douglasadams: do not say quine
17:39:46 <alise> fungot: my favourite project.
17:39:47 <oerjan> Vorpal: i really cannot be bothered to guess within a near-infinite space
17:40:12 <Vorpal> alise, why only 3 seconds ago?
17:40:34 <alise> Vorpal: non-literal. you use it to. "you hypocrite"
17:40:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, well y is time, divided in 10-minute buckets
17:41:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, x is line length, >100 are capped to 100
17:41:08 <Vorpal> oerjan, and colour is frequency
17:41:13 <quintopia> alise: and its webserver should serve its own source, so all can admire it (and also so that it is a quine too)
17:41:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, the time for y is time of day that is
17:41:41 <alise> quintopia: well, sure, if the source repository just isn't cool enough for you :P
17:41:58 <alise> oh yeah and downloadable logs too -- maybe in a repo
17:42:06 <alise> so they sync easily
17:42:17 <quintopia> alise: well, what if the repos is out-of-date ;)
17:42:17 <alise> with perhaps a more raw format than tunes, plus a script to render them more nicely
17:42:25 <alise> since tunes' is unreadable and not that easily parseable
17:42:30 <alise> quintopia: then it wouldn't be running on the server
17:43:00 <quintopia> alise: it would be cooler without the babbling >.>
17:43:12 <alise> quintopia: you don't like fungot's babbling?
17:43:24 <alise> it only happens when you mention its name! and even then it has a cutoff
17:43:32 <alise> probably i'll make it so that only "bot: ..." triggers a babble...
17:43:35 <oerjan> fungot still has one _major_ advantage - it's actually implemented *ducks*
17:43:36 <fungot> oerjan: it's obvious... the furs never reached istanbul... you were asking to!! all about macros. im confused by all the spaces.)
17:43:47 <alise> oerjan: as i said: no statue of limitations on oneupmanship
17:44:03 <quintopia> but it's kind of a useless feature...
17:44:07 <Vorpal> <alise> since tunes' is unreadable and not that easily parseable <-- true, the timezone stuff is annoying
17:44:08 <alise> iirc it's 5 messages before it ignores you
17:44:13 <alise> quintopia: but it /is/ a fun feature
17:44:14 <Vorpal> alise, other than that it is easy to parse tunes
17:44:22 <alise> Vorpal: not as easy as a nicer format
17:44:35 <alise> say, (msg unixts "name" "msg")
17:44:39 <alise> or even a binary format of some sort
17:44:40 <quintopia> alise: indeed, but fungot already does it, so why replicate it?
17:44:40 <fungot> quintopia: that sucked. rephrase: " fnord fnord
17:44:47 <Vorpal> alise, what about joins, parts, kicks, topic changes and so on?
17:44:48 <alise> i.e. binary-style but with only printable chars
17:44:54 <alise> Vorpal: they'd be different. obviously.
17:45:08 <alise> quintopia: mine would do it better >:| also, different corpus
17:45:15 <alise> and mine would probably try and use what you say to it to seed what it says
17:45:21 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, I suggest a simple line based format in that case
17:45:23 <alise> producing more pseudo-synchronicitious fun
17:45:25 <alise> Vorpal: maybe, yeah.
17:45:40 <alise> quintopia: a lovely "OS" project that has been very dead for a very long time
17:45:47 <Vorpal> alise, such as: unixts type sender message
17:45:55 <alise> "OS" is a misnomer, they basically reinvented computing fifty different times.
17:45:58 <alise> Vorpal: we'll see.
17:45:58 <Vorpal> for kick you would have target after sender
17:46:07 <Vorpal> but the basic idea is sound I think
17:47:01 <Vorpal> alise, type would be like "msg, act, notice, join, part, quit, kick, nick topic, mode"
17:47:12 <alise> Vorpal: yeah yeah yeah
17:47:19 <alise> quintopia: type /topic
17:47:37 <Vorpal> alise, those were the types needed for clog parsing btw
17:47:53 -!- Kiraz has joined.
17:48:46 -!- Kiraz has quit (Client Quit).
17:49:29 <alise> 20:18:28 * quintopia tries Illumination Software Creator
17:49:29 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ sudo dpkg -i illumination64.deb
17:49:49 <alise> This trial version of Illumination Software Creator is fully functional but limited to 10 "Blocks" of functionality per project. Purchasing a license from our secure online store removes this limitation.
17:49:58 <alise> how can i revolugimise ajax2.0 now
17:50:08 <alise> "Build Project - Haiku - Desktop"
17:50:25 <Vorpal> isn't that some google thingy?
17:50:31 <quintopia> alise: you can get the full version for $5 if you liked it
17:50:34 <alise> haiku is the BeOS successor
17:50:39 <alise> quintopia: lol, or i could pirate it
17:50:58 <quintopia> alise: well, yes, but is it really worth pirating? It's kind of weak, IMO...
17:51:22 <alise> woo it quits when i hit the button
17:51:31 <alise> but, like Plain English, these things are hilarious
17:53:58 <Vorpal> (the current thing, not plain english)
17:54:12 <alise> http://www.radicalbreeze.com/illumination/ISCExampleTextEditor.png
17:54:47 <Vorpal> alise, so: extremely limited
17:55:28 <alise> 20:55:45 <quintopia> "polar bear" and "jökullhlaupt" confused?
17:55:28 <alise> 20:55:58 <quintopia> feel free to move that diaresis as needed
17:55:33 <alise> now i'm /certain/ it's not a diaeresis there
17:55:59 <Vorpal> alise, "jökullhlaupt"? Sounds like Icelandic
17:56:34 <Vorpal> but hm jökull is something related to volcanoes iirc?
17:56:55 <alise> quintopia: no, it's not a diaeresis
17:56:59 <alise> i have no idea as to the spelling
17:57:18 <quintopia> well, i could have sworn that was the english word for umlaut
17:57:28 <alise> but ö is a separate letter
17:57:33 <alise> at most i'd accept umlaut
17:57:39 <alise> no, diaeresis is the accent -- the same --
17:57:47 <alise> used to signify that two vowels do not form a dipthong
17:57:53 <alise> Zoë, coöperate, etc.
17:57:54 <Vorpal> oh yeah ö is a separate letter
17:58:03 <Vorpal> like in Swedish and other Nordic languages
17:58:08 <alise> the-letter-ö derives from German's o-with-umlaut
17:58:21 <Vorpal> alise, well okay, I'm just saying what it is today
17:58:21 <alise> so calling icelandic ö an o with an umlaut is acceptable, but it's definitely not a diaeresis
17:58:30 <alise> Vorpal: well you have to give it some name :-)
17:58:33 <quintopia> i should have spelled it joekull then it wouldn't have been a problem
17:58:40 <alise> what i'm being is a joekill
17:58:57 <quintopia> but i come to expect that from you
17:59:07 <alise> hey i'm funny upon occasion
17:59:14 <alise> just pedantic the rest of the time
17:59:27 <Vorpal> quintopia, åäö are separate letters in Swedish, not just aao with "decoration". Same goes for the other Nordic languages where relevant (not all have that set, Icelandic has some more stuff, iirc ð for example, Norwegian and Danish has ø instead of ö)
17:59:30 * quintopia donates a pile of dead horses to alise for SCIENCE
17:59:44 <alise> quintopia: you're looking for #beastiality
18:00:00 <quintopia> Vorpal: yes, it is a separate phoneme, but i need a name for JUST THE TWO DOTS
18:00:03 <alise> Vorpal: otoh you bastards won't give us /names/ for them that we can pronounce
18:00:06 <alise> quintopia: "umlaut"
18:00:11 <Vorpal> alise, dead horses he said. necrobeastiality?
18:00:17 <alise> or "diaeresis" depending on when it's used
18:00:26 <alise> there's no word for both of them :D
18:00:28 <Vorpal> quintopia, there isn't one for Swedish at least
18:00:35 <alise> An umlaut (pronounced /ˈʊmlaʊt/ OOM-lowt) is the orthographical representation of a type of sound shift in spoken language. A very similar diacritical mark (called diaeresis or "trema") is used to signify a linguistic hiatus. In modern computer systems (using Unicode), umlaut and diaeresis are represented identically: ä represents both a-umlaut and a-trema.
18:00:46 <quintopia> alise: what portion of your day do you spend rehashing day-old logs?
18:00:53 <alise> quintopia: very little of it
18:00:56 <alise> oerjan logreads too
18:01:00 <alise> you just haven't seen him do so yet
18:01:26 <quintopia> it just seems weird to be talking about conversations we had last night in such detail
18:01:34 <alise> this channel is a bit weird.
18:01:34 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: otoh you bastards won't give us /names/ for them that we can pronounce <-- what do you mean?
18:01:46 <alise> Vorpal: for german we can say "u with umlaut"
18:01:52 <alise> we have no word for your ö without learning to pronounce it
18:01:59 <alise> even then, it will be a bit unclear what we mean to other english speakers
18:02:04 <alise> so name it; oobie or something
18:02:09 <Vorpal> I was about to say that we can't manage them either over here. Complain to the Icelandic ppl
18:02:13 <alise> otherwise we'll keep saying o-with-umlaut :)
18:03:20 <alise> is that ouml or oüml :D
18:03:28 <Vorpal> alise, what do you call д (a random Cyrillic symbol)
18:03:57 <Vorpal> alise, there are lots of letters that have no name in English.
18:04:07 <alise> Vorpal: giko neko's :O mouth
18:04:21 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Gikoneko01.svg
18:04:25 <alise> no clue why that's svg but there you go
18:04:54 <Vorpal> alise, it's svg with embedded bitmap...
18:05:16 <alise> A, Be, Ve, Ge/He, Ge, De, Dje/Djerv...
18:05:18 <alise> I won't continue reciting.
18:05:25 <Vorpal> alise, that is transcribing
18:05:25 <quintopia> Vorpal: a jkullhlaupt is a mudslide resulting from a volcanic eruption under a glacier, not the volcano itself
18:05:30 <alise> Vorpal: good enough.
18:05:55 <Vorpal> alise, so transcribe åäö then
18:06:24 <Vorpal> alise, anyway you could just type åäö
18:06:26 <alise> Vorpal: is there a defined transcription?
18:06:32 <alise> also, yeah, try saying that out aloud
18:06:41 <alise> that's like saying
18:06:56 <alise> "the alphabet is ah buh cuh duh ef uh guh hu ey juh kuh..."
18:06:59 <Vorpal> that's the last three letters in the Swedish alphabet, in the right order
18:07:14 <alise> "the alphabet is ay, bee, cee, dee, ee, eff, gee, heigh, eye, jay, kay, ..."
18:07:16 <alise> the latter are the names
18:07:31 <alise> nobody would understand you if you referred to letters by their pronunciation as in the former
18:07:54 <alise> "Note: when replacing umlaut characters with plain ASCII, use ae, oe, etc. for German language, and the simple character replacements for all other languages."
18:08:01 <alise> an official WP recommendation to replace ö with o
18:08:09 <Vorpal> alise, hm yeah for English, as it happens "a" would coincide for them in Swedish. Same for a number of other vowels
18:08:52 <alise> you say "ah" for the letter a?
18:09:08 <Vorpal> alise, the letter a sounds like the same sound as in words like "al" alla" "arga" and so on
18:09:14 <Vorpal> in all the places for those
18:09:31 <Vorpal> well al more than alla, the first a in alla would be sort
18:09:36 <alise> 21:06:18 <Sgeo|Puppy> I could never go into hiding
18:09:36 <alise> 21:06:27 <Sgeo|Puppy> Into a witness-protection-program-like-thing
18:09:36 <alise> 21:06:36 <Sgeo|Puppy> I love my online identity too much
18:09:36 <alise> 21:07:07 <Sgeo|Puppy> I love the places too much
18:09:36 <alise> 21:07:20 <Sgeo|Puppy> Not the RL places. The online places
18:09:45 <alise> i'm glad those would take priority if your life was at risk.
18:10:05 <Vorpal> alise, a = long a, "al" = contains long a
18:10:16 <Vorpal> short a would not be the same though
18:10:45 <alise> quintopia: you mean /æ/ or [æ] then :p
18:10:51 <Vorpal> alise, hm? æ = Danish ä
18:11:00 <alise> i don't know that anyone uses /.../ for IPA
18:11:15 <alise> quintopia: (it seriously confused me; I still use æ occasionally.)
18:11:27 <quintopia> alise: where do i find Droid Sans and how do I install it?
18:11:37 <quintopia> i've never installed new fonts on here before...
18:11:43 <alise> 21:26:18 <pikhq> I do hereby declare US politics fundamentally broken. Nothing short of eugenics can fix it.
18:11:43 <alise> 21:26:43 <quintopia> eugenics broke it in the first place
18:11:54 <alise> i don't recall the US ever practising eugenics...
18:12:00 <alise> quintopia: sudo aptitude install ttf-droid
18:12:15 <oerjan> alise: i thought // was for phonemes and [] for actual sounds (phones?)
18:12:16 <alise> or [your favourite gui package manager] → "Droid"
18:12:18 <Vorpal> ah it is in the repos. Right
18:12:25 <alise> and "handheld device font with extensive style and language support"
18:12:33 <alise> oerjan: ah, perhaps
18:12:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, only in case of telemarketing
18:12:53 <alise> but not the marketing part
18:13:05 <Vorpal> alise, I had to come up with something before you did!
18:13:24 <Vorpal> alise, so I picked first word related to phones that came to my mind
18:13:32 <alise> you have a bad relationship with them huh
18:13:57 <Vorpal> alise, not any longer. I'm in the national "do not call for telemarketing" register :)
18:14:14 <alise> 21:35:48 <ais523> UK politics is pretty stupid, but US politics is clearly even stupider
18:14:28 <alise> Vorpal: we are too, but it's fun because credit card companies still ring you up to offer you a better deal
18:14:34 <alise> through some loophole; dunno which
18:14:51 <alise> pikhq: have you read The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect?
18:15:17 <Vorpal> alise, or do you mean ones where you are an existing customer?
18:15:31 <Vorpal> hm then indeed not happening here
18:17:47 <alise> 21:38:22 <pikhq> ais523: They want to end the freaking EU. [...]
18:17:52 <alise> incorrect; they don't give a shit about what anyone else does
18:17:55 <alise> they just want to retreat from it
18:17:55 <cpressey> alise: oh yes, eugenics is but one small part of this nation's proud history
18:18:06 <alise> and spend the rest of their glorious lives living in a tiny bubble with the UK in it
18:18:22 <alise> cpressey: they actually did it awesome
18:18:36 <Vorpal> <alise> 21:38:22 <pikhq> ais523: They want to end the freaking EU. [...] <-- who?
18:18:45 <alise> Vorpal: UK right-wingers
18:18:47 <cpressey> "In 1907 Indiana became the first of more than thirty states to adopt legislation aimed at compulsory sterilization of certain individuals." etc etc --WP
18:18:59 <alise> they'd love for the rest of europe to burn to the ground
18:19:01 <alise> as long as we're not in the EU
18:19:11 <alise> cpressey: GO INDIANA
18:19:43 <Vorpal> alise, I presume you are joking right?
18:20:04 <quintopia> how long did it take kansas to get in on the act?
18:20:13 <alise> Vorpal: I NEVER JOKE.
18:20:32 <quintopia> (i think it took like 40 some odd years before the various state level anti-miscegenation laws were repealed.)
18:20:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
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18:21:20 <Sgeo|PartedMagic> lupu-511.iso 100% |******************************| 129M 00:00:00 ETAA
18:21:39 <alise> Sgeo|PartedMagic: ^C
18:21:51 <Vorpal> Sgeo|PartedMagic, "ETAA"?
18:22:25 <quintopia> they like to really hedge their estimates
18:22:54 <Sgeo|PartedMagic> Does anyone (besides me, soon) really use the save to DVD stuff?
18:23:05 <alise> most people save to usb
18:23:18 <alise> quintopia: in puppy.
18:23:37 <quintopia> alise: well from a netbook at least
18:25:34 <Vorpal> <Sgeo|PartedMagic> Does anyone (besides me, soon) really use the save to DVD stuff? <-- um I install on hdd and use that :P
18:25:49 <Sgeo|PartedMagic> There's some gui tool for settings, but it complains about a missing driver
18:25:53 <alise> yeah because Vorpal uses puppy
18:25:54 <Vorpal> I never saved state from a livecd to disk
18:26:01 <alise> puppy /is/ just a livecd
18:26:03 <Vorpal> alise, I used other livecds
18:26:10 <alise> Vorpal: puppy is nothing like them
18:26:20 <alise> ew they redesigned the puppy site
18:26:24 <alise> mistakes made in recent puppy history:
18:26:25 <Vorpal> alise, but I haven't actually tried to use it like a main system. I use them like I use systemrescuecd
18:26:26 <alise> - using ubuntu as a base
18:26:28 <alise> - oh god that website
18:26:41 <alise> Vorpal: puppy runs from ram, so the HD install is not very necessary
18:26:57 <Vorpal> alise, true, I know about knoppix and such
18:27:01 <Vorpal> I just don't see the point
18:27:10 <alise> it's nothing like knoppix, either
18:27:18 <alise> also, it's possible to install to hd
18:27:21 <alise> but it just loads it into ram immediately
18:27:29 <Vorpal> Sgeo|PartedMagic, that shouldn't be hard. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere
18:27:32 <alise> most people use a usb stick, since it's fast enough due to the ram-based operation, and leaves a portable system
18:27:58 <Vorpal> and even then there is these so called "web shops" that "ship" to you. Quite awesome!
18:28:16 <alise> so how's that data recovery going buddy
18:28:18 <Sgeo|PartedMagic> This way, I get to show off that my laptop's fully usable without a HD
18:28:34 <Vorpal> alise, if he doesn't have a hdd to recover it to, then what is he going to do
18:28:46 <Vorpal> <Sgeo|PartedMagic> This way, I get to show off that my laptop's fully usable without a HD <-- yes and?
18:28:49 <alise> Vorpal: use it as an opportunity to get attention from the fact that his laptop is running without an HD?
18:28:51 <Vorpal> how is that unexpected
18:29:03 <Sgeo|PartedMagic> Track 01: Total bytes read/written: 136114176/136114176 (66462 sectors).
18:29:07 <Vorpal> every computer I know that can boot from a cd can do so without a hd being in it
18:29:38 <Vorpal> alise, I can't see what's so unusual about that
18:29:47 <Vorpal> I mean, of course it is possible
18:29:48 <alise> Vorpal: well, that's never stopped 'im :)
18:29:58 <Vorpal> as long as you have something else to boot from
18:30:55 <quintopia> there was the fud. now for the nap?
18:32:10 <Vorpal> quintopia, do you mean FUD like "microsoft FUD"?
18:32:40 <Vorpal> google says fud stands for "fear, uncertainty and doubt" and I didn't see anything of that in here
18:34:42 <quintopia> which is a medium teal in RGB color
18:34:48 <Vorpal> $ echo -n fud | od -tx1
18:35:27 <Vorpal> quintopia, and F00D is just two components, F0, 0D. Which does not make up an RGB triplet
18:36:08 <quintopia> the initial 00 is implied by digit significance
18:36:14 -!- Sgeo|PartedMagic has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:37:03 <alise> i would say whoosh
18:37:04 <Vorpal> quintopia, still, fud is 66,75,64.
18:37:09 <alise> but i think Vorpal is actually so underground
18:37:16 <alise> that nothing can go level with or below his head
18:37:42 <Vorpal> alise, if you are saying that I don't keep up-to-date with popular culture? So what?
18:37:59 <alise> <quintopia> the hex value for fud is F00D
18:38:01 <alise> read this one more time
18:38:06 <alise> then call me an idiot
18:39:30 <Vorpal> well obviously "fud" is similar to "food". More so than most other three letter strings. That however does not explain "hex value"
18:40:05 <Vorpal> hm speaking of which, I wonder if there are any ascii -> hex quines.
18:40:26 <Vorpal> would have to be in the first 15 chars, all control codes.
18:41:07 <alise> Vorpal: you're stupid
18:42:25 <Vorpal> alise, then perhaps you could explain what the joke in that "the hex value for fud is F00D" statement is
18:42:32 <quintopia> when catherine forgot blair's name after just meeting him
18:42:42 <quintopia> so no one told her and made her try to guess
18:42:59 <quintopia> they said "hint: it's a kind of girl-sounding name, and it rhymes with 'blair'"
18:52:43 <alise> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird ehird 11221 2010-09-16 20:57 by implanting explosive ammunition in VC ammo caches
18:52:43 <alise> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird ehird 3142 2010-09-16 20:57 inessweek. More stories
18:59:10 <alise> anyone know how to do underload's a in dc?
18:59:14 <alise> that is, [foo] -> [[foo]]
19:05:58 <alise> popping is hard :D
19:09:36 <alise> "asX2 1>X" works but clobbers X
19:09:51 <alise> S/L don't work because the L pushes to the stack again
19:12:54 <alise> and also because there has to be something in X in the first place
19:18:24 <alise> okay i can translate everything but * and a
19:29:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: For today's graphs, they were just exact (well, case-insensitive) matches of "ehird", "tusho", "alise". Probably should've added the % in.
19:30:13 <fizzie> <Vorpal> 18:26:06> fizzie, did you match on ehird% for the graphs?
19:30:32 <alise> which graphs again? :D
19:31:02 <fizzie> www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/len.png wlen.png alise_vs_vorpal.png avf.png if I recall all the names correctly.
19:31:29 <fizzie> Nothing very new there.
19:32:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, I mostly had the volume graphs graphs in mind
19:32:18 <alise> basically i am the best
19:32:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is the top 10 and such
19:32:24 <alise> fizzie: did you make the super-big all-time actichart?
19:32:47 <fizzie> alise: No, and now I don't feel like it since I have that new script framework. :p
19:33:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, so port the scripts over? :)
19:33:17 -!- Behold has joined.
19:33:20 <alise> fizzie: That was totally my idea. :|
19:33:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:33:34 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
19:33:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway you may find the updated http://sprunge.us/HGcY useful
19:34:13 <alise> re_ig6 = re.compile(r'--- quit: woo11:09:38 <SimonRC> hi$')
19:34:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, since it handles notices and kicks and such. Mind the extra column for kick target
19:34:24 <Vorpal> alise, yeah there was one line that was broken
19:34:36 <fizzie> There's that other line that it already ignores that's broken, too.
19:34:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, but this one had a working timestamp
19:35:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, two ones in fact :P
19:35:36 <Vorpal> alise, anyway yes I know it is a hackish fix :P
19:35:52 <alise> Maybe I'll implement botte in SUPERLISP.
19:36:07 <Vorpal> alise, the proper fix would be to get the tunes admin to remove/correct broken lines in the logs on the server
19:36:17 <alise> the tunes admin /does not control/ clog
19:36:21 <alise> nobody controls clog
19:36:25 <Vorpal> alise, no, use plain english!
19:36:37 <alise> Faré won't do anything to them
19:36:45 <alise> only hcf would and he no longer has access to the server
19:36:54 <fizzie> Okay, I'll run the old script one last time to get a more hugey plot.
19:37:01 <Vorpal> alise, Halt and Catch Fire?
19:37:05 <alise> fizzie: Wider, and generally bigger.
19:37:16 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, did his nick stand for that
19:37:29 <alise> three-letter nicks used to be all the ræg.
19:37:33 <fizzie> Yeah, it should now be 3* the width and twice the height, and maybe with a bit better smoothing window too. Assuming it works.
19:37:45 <Vorpal> alise, sure but they are in short supply
19:37:52 <alise> which is why i said used to be.
19:37:57 <Vorpal> at least interesting ones
19:38:04 <fizzie> I used the nick "f" in IRCnet for a few weeks, but gave that up.
19:38:11 <Vorpal> alise, I know two letter nicks and one letter ones too
19:38:19 <fizzie> One-letter nicks look somehow wrongy.
19:38:24 -!- alise has changed nick to fcf.
19:38:30 <Vorpal> I used one letter ones on other networks, but mis-highlight quota is often high
19:38:31 <fcf> "Fornicate and Catch Fire"
19:38:39 <fcf> not registered!
19:39:05 -!- fcf has changed nick to qcf.
19:39:08 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:39:11 <qcf> "Quarks Catch Fire" - aw - registered.
19:39:12 -!- qcf has changed nick to fcf.
19:39:21 -!- fcf has changed nick to hqx.
19:39:23 <hqx> unregistered
19:39:50 <fizzie> hqx: http://zem.fi/~fis/biglog.png -- there, that's a bit bigger. (For any later updated versions, I'll try to get some sort of X scale going.)
19:40:09 -!- wareya has joined.
19:40:10 <hqx> no, this nick is awesome
19:40:26 <hqx> fizzie: Can you do the same for a relative plot? i.e. the sum is always 1
19:40:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, did that one include alise*, ehird* and so on?
19:40:53 <hqx> YEAH AND WHAT ABOUT MY NOVELTY NICKS
19:41:02 <hqx> ehird` is a bit important
19:41:06 <hqx> since i used it for a very long time
19:41:09 <hqx> after ehird got stolen
19:41:28 <Vorpal> hqx, you have like 20 000 messages with (ehird|alise|tusho).+
19:41:32 <Vorpal> notice the + at the end
19:41:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, it just contains three exact remappings. I can do that too.
19:41:47 <hqx> I like how I don't talk very much until AnMaster comes and then BOOM big spike.
19:41:48 <Vorpal> hqx, novelty ones are more work, provide us with a complete list!
19:42:02 <hqx> fizzie: ehird` -> ehird is quite relevant
19:42:11 <hqx> as it'll be why i'm not present leftwards
19:42:21 <hqx> well, -> alise
19:42:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc for my anmaster* vorpal* cases it was more like 500 messages
19:42:37 <Vorpal> that were not on the base nicks
19:42:45 <hqx> Vorpal: Here, you have a DB; tell me what day I talked the most. :P
19:43:28 <fizzie> Computing the relative graph now with all nicks that start (case-insensitively) with "ehird", "alise" and "tusho"; that should catch some of them.
19:43:29 <hqx> That is, select top day sorted by count of messages by me that day.
19:43:32 <Vorpal> hqx, um, the date field is a timestamp, it is not split in separate date and time, otherwise it would be simple with some group by query
19:43:41 <Vorpal> hqx, now? a bit trickier
19:43:42 <hqx> Vorpal: I'm sure SQLite has datetime functions...
19:43:47 <fizzie> You can group by a substr expression.
19:43:55 <Vorpal> hqx, yeah but I would need to read the docs :P
19:44:11 <hqx> http://www.sqlite.org/lang_datefunc.html
19:44:29 <hqx> you might have to use strftime :P
19:44:32 <hqx> or something
19:44:41 <Vorpal> hqx, notice that anything not on indexes (and this won't be I bet) will probably take several minutes to run
19:44:48 <hqx> index EVERYTHING!
19:45:02 <Vorpal> hqx, nah, indexes on nick and timestamp atm iirc
19:45:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, why not a timestamp ?
19:45:39 <Vorpal> or does it not have a separate data type?
19:45:51 <hqx> probably not
19:45:55 <hqx> why not an integer, though?
19:45:56 <fizzie> sqlite only does integers, binary blobs and text strings.
19:46:28 <fizzie> And the date-and-time functions take timestamp strings, that's why not an integer.
19:46:35 <fizzie> sqlite> select substr(tstamp, 1, 10) as k, count(*) as num from logs where (nick like 'alise%' or nick like 'ehird%' or nick like 'tusho%') group by k order by num desc limit 5;
19:46:36 <Vorpal> hqx, I have strings like "2010-09-17 18:37:22" in the table. (blame fizzie!). You give me the "get date out of that" SQL code
19:46:47 <hqx> Thanks fizzie.
19:46:50 <hqx> I'll ask you next time :P
19:47:31 <hqx> Cool, it starts with me talking about trying to make a Windows editor that doesn't suck.
19:47:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, I like the limit 5 and you pasting 3 results :) (yeah yeah I know you didn't copy it all, but still)
19:47:35 <hqx> I don't recall why.
19:47:42 <fizzie> Hrrm, the relative graph got... strange.
19:47:44 <hqx> No, wait; a PDF reader.
19:47:46 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/biglogr.png
19:47:49 <hqx> fizzie: Strange is nice!
19:47:57 <hqx> That's not nice!
19:48:03 <Vorpal> hqx, it is however strange
19:48:03 <hqx> fizzie: That must be periods of no activity. (Wat?)
19:48:16 <hqx> But what we really learn is that I TOTALLY DOMINATE
19:48:32 <hqx> fizzie: Could you tell me which position is the start of 2010?
19:48:34 <fizzie> The periods are so long that I wonder why they didn't show up in the previous relative graph.
19:48:45 <hqx> There should be a complete flattening after that for a few weeks.
19:49:07 <Vorpal> hqx, according to that I spoke more during some periods than you. Assuming same height = equal number of messages at that period
19:49:17 <hqx> fizzie: It can't be right; the channel has never been dead when I've been around.
19:49:33 <hqx> Vorpal: Well, yeah, but I still dominate on the whole. Also, you probably weren't in a mental institution.
19:49:39 <fizzie> hqx: Yes, but I've been elsewhere; it's probably about that. These old scripts read just my own logs.
19:49:44 <Vorpal> hqx, hard to tell with no x scale
19:49:45 <hqx> I /think/ the bit where I follow the others line is the few-week period.
19:50:06 <hqx> Since before that it's very big, as I wasn't going to the unit.
19:50:13 <hqx> So there's some sense of scale, I guess.
19:50:16 <fizzie> Anyway, you can find the start of 2010 by counting three times the number of days in 2010 up until 2010-08-31 pixels.
19:50:22 <Vorpal> hqx, I was looking near the start after the last 0-place
19:50:48 <hqx> Vorpal: Consider that a lot of that red near the right was, apart from weekends, accumulated on a phone at night! Dedication :P
19:51:08 <fizzie> So 729 pixels from the end of the plot is where 2010 starts, approximately.
19:51:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, and is that before or after the last drop to zero?
19:51:24 <hqx> A day is three pixels? Surely not.
19:51:32 <fizzie> A day should be three pixels.
19:51:33 <hqx> It's not wide enough for that. Or is this just recent stuff?
19:51:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, then I doubt it is wide enough
19:52:15 <fizzie> It's 8443 pixels wide; that's 8443/3 = 2814 days; 2814/365 is about 7.7 years.
19:52:19 <hqx> 1095 horizontal pixels a year
19:52:19 <fizzie> Sounds approximately right to me.
19:52:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, those drops seem strange
19:52:54 <hqx> then i can only conclude that being in a mental institution monday to friday and never once connecting to the internet on the weekends must have had... no effect on my activity
19:53:00 <hqx> Vorpal: as fizzie said they were probably unlogged periods
19:53:05 <hqx> since he's using his logs
19:53:26 <Vorpal> hqx, yes but compare with http://zem.fi/~fis/biglog.png where it the last drop to zero doesn't show up
19:53:28 <fizzie> I'll try to add the X scale to that sooner or later. In fact I guess I could quickly hack in years.
19:53:56 <hqx> just less pronounced
19:54:03 <hqx> due to the non-relativity
19:54:17 <Vorpal> a log merging tool for these dbs would be useful
19:54:42 <Vorpal> anyway, maybe I should import this into postgre as well to compare speed for some queries (with the same indexes)
19:55:32 <hqx> maybe i'll use picoLisp for botte and put it in a picoLisp database!
19:55:52 <fizzie> A log merging tool would also be non-trivial, especially if you want to do it "right" (i.e. model the reliability of timestamps in different databases at different periods of time intelligently, then take some weighted-average timestamps to get most likely correct estimates, yet do it in a manner that doesn't mess message ordering, and so on; even the matching of messages needs some sliding-window stuff and maybe even approximate matching if some irreversible e
19:55:52 <fizzie> ncoding transformations have taken place).
19:56:24 <Vorpal> my 3 most active days btw:
19:57:04 <fizzie> 2009-09-06|373 -- aw, even my busiest day has been pretty unbusy by your standards.
19:57:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, I know my local computer has used ntp since before I started using irc.
19:57:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, so baring lag mine should be accurate.
19:57:42 <hqx> Vorpal: Now rewrite the query to sum up all message lengths.
19:57:50 <hqx> What's our top byte-emission days?
19:58:00 <hqx> I'm trying to be byte neutral. Save the planet and all.
19:58:05 <hqx> Only write as much as I read.
19:58:05 * Vorpal tries to remember the string length function of sql
19:58:19 <hqx> Try to edit existing lines with regular expressions instead of producing new ones. Recycling bytes.
19:58:20 <fizzie> It's just sum(length(body)) in place of count(*).
19:58:29 <fizzie> And you probably want a "and type = 0" in the where condition.
19:58:50 <Vorpal> you want that for the other ones too really
19:59:12 <fizzie> alise: 106190 characters in one day, not bad.
19:59:19 <Vorpal> sqlite> select substr(tstamp, 1, 10) as k, sum(length(body)) as num from logs where (nick like 'anmaster%' or nick like 'vorpal%') and type = 0 group by k order by num desc limit 5;
19:59:37 <Vorpal> the top two changed place for me
19:59:42 <fizzie> I should rebuild my logs.db with the fixed updatedb.pl.
20:00:04 <hqx> <fizzie> alise: 106190 characters in one day, not bad.
20:00:07 <hqx> that's .1 megabytes fuck yeah
20:00:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, if you use mine, note that type numbering changed, I inserted the new ones in the middle.
20:00:16 <hqx> hmm the second one is my top place in lines
20:00:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, rather than adding notice at the end
20:00:29 <hqx> first one i don't think is in the three you pasted
20:00:31 <Vorpal> it seemed nicer to put it together with msg and act
20:00:34 <hqx> indeed, it isn't
20:01:11 <Vorpal> hqx, actually the line count one includes part/joins
20:01:22 <Vorpal> sqlite> select substr(tstamp, 1, 10) as k, count(*) as num from logs where (nick like 'alise%' or nick like 'ehird%' or nick like 'tusho%') and type=0 group by k order by num desc limit 5;
20:01:25 <hqx> <fizzie> 2010-09-11|106190
20:01:26 <hqx> oh that's boring
20:01:31 <hqx> that's just when i pasted the entire Funge-98 spec in channel
20:01:37 <Vorpal> hqx, why did you do that?
20:01:59 <hqx> Vorpal: Quadr*scence and ch*ater99 (no ping) had been pissing everyone off for an hour or two
20:02:28 <hqx> then when aug*r decided to ask for pics and started commenting on Quadr*scence's, and I quote, "fuckab"ility...
20:03:16 <Vorpal> hqx, taking top line count for CTCP ACTION, generic PRIVMSG and NOTICE:
20:03:26 <Vorpal> sqlite> select substr(tstamp, 1, 10) as k, count(*) as num from logs where (nick like 'alise%' or nick like 'ehird%' or nick like 'tusho%') and type in (0,1,2) group by k order by num desc limit 5;
20:03:34 <Vorpal> sqlite> select substr(tstamp, 1, 10) as k, count(*) as num from logs where (nick like 'anmaster%' or nick like 'vorpal%') and type in (0,1,2) group by k order by num desc limit 5;
20:03:44 <hqx> Vorpal: can you list by "top non-PRIVMSGs"?
20:03:53 <hqx> to get join cycles, /mes, NOTICE, TOPIC, etc.
20:03:56 <Vorpal> hqx, in a sec, doing byte count now
20:04:02 <hqx> of everything? :D
20:04:16 <Vorpal> sqlite> select substr(tstamp, 1, 10) as k, sum(length(body)) as num from logs where (nick like 'anmaster%' or nick like 'vorpal%') and type in (0,1,2) group by k order by num desc limit 5;
20:04:19 <Vorpal> sqlite> select substr(tstamp, 1, 10) as k, sum(length(body)) as num from logs where (nick like 'alise%' or nick like 'ehird%' or nick like 'tusho%') and type in (0,1,2) group by k order by num desc limit 5;
20:04:22 -!- Sgeo|WebPuppy has joined.
20:04:29 <Vorpal> hqx, not of everything no
20:04:41 <Sgeo|WebPuppy> What do you mean, I can't use emacs with rxvt-unicode?
20:04:52 <Vorpal> hqx, so you want everything except /msg and /me?
20:04:59 <Vorpal> or did you want to include /me?
20:05:06 <hqx> Vorpal: exclude /me i guess
20:05:13 <hqx> Sgeo|WebPuppy: of course you can.
20:05:15 <fizzie> Sgeo|WebPuppy: That sounds really very strange, since I use emacs with rxvt-unicode.
20:05:38 <Vorpal> sqlite> select substr(tstamp, 1, 10) as k, count(*) as num from logs where (nick like 'alise%' or nick like 'ehird%' or nick like 'tusho%') and type not in (0,1) group by k order by num desc limit 5;
20:05:50 <Sgeo|WebPuppy> emacs: Terminal type rxvt-unicode is not defined. If that is not the actual type of terminal you have, use the Bourne shell command `TERM=... export TERM' (C-shell: `setenv TERM ...') to specify the correct type. It may be necessary to do `unset TERMINFO' (C-shell: `unsetenv TERMINFO') as well.
20:05:59 <hqx> Vorpal: That's so boringly few.
20:06:01 <fizzie> Your terminfo database sounds sucky, then.
20:06:05 <Vorpal> sqlite> select substr(tstamp, 1, 10) as k, count(*) as num from logs where (nick like 'anmaster%' or nick like 'vorpal%') and type not in (0,1) group by k order by num desc limit 5;
20:06:06 <hqx> Sgeo|WebPuppy: TERM=xterm emacs
20:06:13 <hqx> TERM=xterm-unicode emacs # might also work
20:06:16 <hqx> or whatever it is
20:07:32 <Sgeo|WebPuppy> Does Puppy Linux have a nice way to read .pptx files?
20:07:43 <hqx> i wish there was a variant of sql with symbols instead of those pointless words :)
20:07:47 <hqx> Sgeo|WebPuppy: probably not.
20:07:55 <hqx> and it would not be a feature of Puppy if there was.
20:08:57 <fizzie> hqx: Relational algebra has a well-defined set of funky symbols ready, even.
20:09:01 <hqx> fizzie: Indeed!
20:09:05 <hqx> Vorpal: new ppt
20:09:08 <hqx> ISO Standard powerpoint!
20:09:11 <hqx> *PowerPoint!
20:09:15 <hqx> was it ISO?
20:09:18 <hqx> i fogret. eh.
20:09:20 <hqx> yes, fogret
20:09:22 <hqx> fizzie: Indeed!
20:09:30 <hqx> Vorpal: Try pronouncing it!
20:09:37 <hqx> Chlschszzzxxxx.
20:09:46 <Vorpal> hqx, I was wondering if that was what it was
20:09:50 <hqx> fizzie: There's a fetish for that!
20:09:51 <Vorpal> since it would be so silly
20:09:59 <hqx> why does SQL even have "from TABLE", why isn't it a conditional?
20:10:00 <Sgeo|WebPuppy> Before the X config thing, I was able to click the touchpad but not scroll
20:10:11 <Sgeo|WebPuppy> Now that I did it, I can scroll, but it doesn't recognize taps as clicks
20:10:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: .xlsx is what it is, among others, like .xltx for templates and so on.
20:10:40 <cpressey> hqx: HI ARE YOU NEW HERE ALISE
20:10:48 <Vorpal> what I love (not) with arch: pacman -S postgresql *waits* hm no post install message, now what
20:11:05 <Sgeo|WebPuppy> Ok, how do I make rxvt or whatever not be bright pink?
20:11:11 <Vorpal> I mean gentoo told you in a post install message "go to /var/foo run postgresql-bar to set up the db stuff"
20:11:16 <Vorpal> arch doesn't tell you anything
20:11:39 <Vorpal> of course the arch wiki has info
20:11:55 <hqx> (k := substr(tstamp, 1, 10), num := count(*) | ∈ logs /\ (nick ~ 'alise%' \/ nick ~ 'ehird%' \/ nick ~ 'tusho%') /\ type ∉ {0,1}
20:11:58 <hqx> can't think or group/order syntax :P
20:12:03 <hqx> cpressey: HI.
20:12:18 <hqx> Vorpal: Funny that, with Debian it automatically starts it.
20:12:33 <Vorpal> hqx, indeed. Arch of course doesn't do that
20:12:40 <Vorpal> would be completely unlike arch
20:12:50 <hqx> It would be far too reasonable >:)
20:12:55 <fizzie> Sgeo|WebPuppy: You might have to tell us exactly what *is* bright pink there; it's not like it's a feature of the terminal emulator what color the things run inside it are.
20:12:59 <hqx> "Ooh, you went there."
20:12:59 <cpressey> hqx: btw, I implemented Pixley in C last night. Except... it doesn't have a garbage collector yet.
20:13:17 <Vorpal> hqx, actually, I had to stop it on ubuntu and redo it, since I needed some custom initdb options
20:13:26 <Sgeo|WebPuppy> fizzie, when I use the ssh link thingy, it starts the terminal as bright pink
20:13:27 <hqx> cpressey: Ooh, parallel! Mark and sweep! (Gotta rhyme, gotta rhyme) Gave birth to a garbage collector in the back of a Jeep!
20:13:31 <hqx> Best jingle ever.
20:14:23 <cpressey> Well, first I'm rewriting the interpreter in continuation-passing style to make GC easier
20:14:52 <hqx> cpressey: CHENEY ON THE MTA
20:14:54 <hqx> Do it do it do it
20:14:55 <Vorpal> hqx, hm, you forgot concurrent there
20:15:02 <fizzie> Sgeo|WebPuppy: Can't say I know what a "ssh link thingy" is, so... anyway, you can configure the default fg/bg/text colors with X resources. And I guess also the numbered colors, but those have pretty well-defined meanings already.
20:15:04 <cpressey> It makes me wonder whether choosing reference counting isn't sometimes influenced by "oh man my root set is on the C stack, that's a pain"
20:15:07 <hqx> Vorpal: That's rather more difficult.
20:15:16 <hqx> cpressey: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html
20:15:19 <hqx> cpressey: DO IT DO IT DO IT
20:15:21 <Sgeo|WebPuppy> I'll just use gFTP and send the completed thing there
20:15:33 <hqx> Vorpal: mark and sweep? dunno about that
20:15:55 <Vorpal> hqx, with specialised hardware it could be done
20:17:43 <hqx> Vorpal: how?
20:17:47 <hqx> i don't think mark and sweep is...
20:17:49 <hqx> wait of course it's easy
20:17:59 <hqx> by parallel i mean at the same time as code continues to run
20:18:00 <hqx> which is easy
20:18:02 <hqx> concurrent is also easy
20:18:31 <Vorpal> hqx, wait, isn't the first property concurrent?
20:18:54 <hqx> i dunno i try and avoid using the terms because they suck :D
20:19:03 <Vorpal> hqx, so what do you mean by concurrent then
20:19:15 <hqx> i was totally wrong about everything, both are very easy
20:19:27 <Vorpal> hqx, "while the code continues running" is what I meant by concurrent
20:19:33 <Vorpal> but that is not the case you say?
20:19:33 <hqx> that's easy
20:20:00 <hqx> well not supre easy, but easy in a slightly inefficient manner and probably possible in a more efficient manner
20:20:18 <fizzie> It's nice how the categories go "easy" and then "probably possible".
20:20:45 <fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question".
20:21:19 <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..."
20:22:01 <hqx> "...Possible, but it'll get you on the sex offenders registry in 32 states..."
20:22:10 <hqx> "...and besides, doing that to a horse is just /wrong/."
20:22:11 <Vorpal> `addquote <fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question".
20:22:20 <hqx> it's slow.
20:22:22 <HackEgo> 225|<fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question".
20:22:29 <hqx> can I add <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..." to that quote?
20:22:32 <hqx> it's funnier that way
20:22:49 <hqx> `addquote <fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..." to that quote?
20:22:51 <HackEgo> 226|<fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..." to that quote?
20:22:52 <hqx> Vorpal: we could add /two/ quotes :P
20:22:53 <fizzie> In interests of full disclosure, that one was from the Nukees comic.
20:23:03 <hqx> fizzie: what we don't know can't hurt us
20:23:11 <hqx> OH GOD CTHULHU HAS ARRIVED
20:23:16 <hqx> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:23:20 <hqx> ...correction
20:23:24 <hqx> What we don't know can hurt us
20:23:29 <hqx> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA MY LIMBS
20:24:05 <Vorpal> I do get the lovecraft reference but... why now?
20:24:09 <fizzie> Also, updatedb.py is curiously slow; it was a lot faster at work. (It seems to be mostly waiting for IO, though.)
20:24:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, it was the same speed both before and after the changes for me
20:24:29 <Sgeo|WebPuppy> So, even with the HD not in any use at all, not even inside the computer, it's degrading?
20:24:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:24:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, running on a sempron 3300+ with python -O
20:24:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, I don't suppose the changes will affect IO times much.
20:25:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, and it is fast for me once I'm past the initial huge import
20:25:12 <hqx> inefficient way: thread { our_free_list := copy free list; deutschmarks := automatically_expanding_bit_list_of_size(heap_size); mark_into(deutschmarks); foreach bit <- bitlist { if !bit { if relevant_object(bit) free_according_to our_free_list { /* just allocated */ } else { free(relevant_object(bit)) } } }
20:25:19 <hqx> of a with-code mark and sweep
20:25:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, one thing that helped during initial import was to move db.commit() out to top level
20:25:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, rather than the intended level you had it at
20:25:49 <cpressey> hgx: you seem to have added "to that quote?" to that quote
20:26:06 <hqx> `addquote <fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..."
20:26:11 <HackEgo> 227|<fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..."
20:26:13 <Vorpal> hqx, now you did double revert
20:26:15 <fizzie> Oh well, it's already ~75% done, based on the size of the previous .db file, so I guess I'll just let it disk-thrash. But yes, I guess coimmit involves actual writes.
20:26:22 <Vorpal> hqx, what were you thinking!?
20:26:35 <hqx> i didn't see yours
20:26:42 <hqx> Is double revert like the opposite of double compile?
20:26:52 <hqx> You fix it, it's your fault for taking over my job. :--|
20:27:01 <Vorpal> hqx, no I don't. anyway look at the numbers
20:27:08 <Vorpal> I say all these are in
20:27:20 <hqx> Hell what?
20:27:32 <hqx> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/e12a6c39ae21
20:27:34 <hqx> "changeset 7"
20:27:35 <Vorpal> they got increasing ids
20:27:38 <hqx> that's not right
20:27:47 <hqx> `quote 225
20:27:50 <HackEgo> 225|<fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question".
20:27:52 <hqx> `quote 226
20:27:54 <cpressey> and, writing the interpreter in CPS has made me wish I picked let and if instead of let* and cond (even though those lead to an obviously smaller implementation in Pixley)
20:28:00 <hqx> `quote 225
20:28:05 <HackEgo> 225|<fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question".
20:28:14 <hqx> `quote 225
20:28:22 <Vorpal> hqx, maybe it uses a db outside the hg repo?
20:28:26 <hqx> was that the revision of--
20:28:28 <hqx> your adding the quote
20:28:30 <hqx> or the one before?
20:28:35 <Vorpal> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/e12a6c39ae21
20:28:36 <hqx> i think it /reverts/ the one you provide, thus leaving us one too far back
20:28:37 <hqx> not sure though
20:28:38 <hqx> `quote 224
20:28:40 <HackEgo> 224|<Gregor> It's impossible to add fake quotes.
20:28:44 <hqx> oh, never mind then
20:28:44 <hqx> `addquote <fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..."
20:28:50 <HackEgo> 225|<fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..."
20:28:50 <hqx> disaster perverted
20:29:09 <hqx> now /that/ would be fucked up
20:29:11 <Vorpal> hqx, yeah it reverts to the one you give
20:29:22 <Vorpal> hqx, well it could be doing cherry picking like darcs
20:29:27 <Vorpal> reverting exactly the one you gave
20:29:39 <Vorpal> rather than reverting to the one you gave
20:30:18 <Vorpal> hqx, wrt number 7: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/graph/623d00b81b79
20:30:18 <hqx> i think reverts used to show in the commit tree
20:30:24 <hqx> and we were certainly at higher commit numbers
20:30:40 <fizzie> There's a "initial reimport" 10 days ago; seems like some maintenance.
20:30:46 <hqx> <ais523> addquote <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
20:30:49 <hqx> FFFFF IT HAS THE SPACE AFTER <
20:30:55 <hqx> `quote 223
20:30:56 <fizzie> Doing cherry-picking to a binary sqlite database would be quite impressive.
20:30:57 <HackEgo> 223|<alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
20:30:59 <hqx> `quote 224
20:31:01 <HackEgo> 224|<Gregor> It's impossible to add fake quotes.
20:31:03 <hqx> `quote 222
20:31:04 <HackEgo> 222|< alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? < pikhq> alise: TLAAW
20:31:14 <hqx> It's all fucked! All fucked!
20:31:17 <hqx> Okay, I have a punning clan.
20:31:21 <hqx> `quote 219
20:31:23 <HackEgo> 219|<oklofok> colon is where your ass comes from right
20:31:33 <hqx> `revert d9be89875ec0
20:31:36 <hqx> `quote 220
20:31:38 <Vorpal> HackEgo, can you please
20:31:38 <HackEgo> 220|<cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
20:31:42 <hqx> This will not take long.
20:31:59 <hqx> Vorpal: Umm, it's less spammy than a lot of fungot usage.
20:32:00 <fungot> hqx: ei oikeen tied ett fnord kokeilla fnord vai vihaako ne mua
20:32:02 <Vorpal> (like this intentionally is to show how it is to other people)
20:32:07 <fizzie> Ooh, Finnish from fungot!
20:32:08 <fungot> fizzie: and i was thinking of for example having an iterative fibonacci function wrapped inside one that only takes predicates and has an assumed decimal point for arithmetic operations).
20:32:17 <hqx> Now I'm going to continue repairing the timeline.
20:32:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, can you translate it?
20:32:28 <Vorpal> hqx, can you take it to /msg please
20:32:35 <hqx> Only if someone else complains.
20:32:45 <hqx> `quote 220
20:32:52 <Vorpal> hqx, what is wrong with quote 220?
20:32:52 <hqx> `quote 219
20:32:54 <HackEgo> 219|<oklofok> colon is where your ass comes from right
20:32:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's pretty ungrammatical, here's an approximation; "hqx: don't even know that fnord try fnord or whether they hate me".
20:33:09 <hqx> `addquote <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
20:33:11 <HackEgo> 220|<cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
20:33:13 <hqx> Vorpal: the timeline was disturbed
20:33:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, not enough Finnish data to work well I guess
20:33:16 <hqx> I am re-adding quotes
20:33:19 <hqx> but eliding those meant to have been reverted
20:33:29 <hqx> `addquote <alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo." <cpressey> alise: I <cpressey> I was going to say something then your last line floored me
20:33:31 <HackEgo> 221|<alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo." <cpressey> alise: I <cpressey> I was going to say something then your last line floored me
20:33:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: There shouldn't be any, that was probably from #douglasadams.
20:33:37 <hqx> `addquote <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
20:33:40 <HackEgo> 222|<alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
20:33:44 <hqx> `addquote <Gregor> It's impossible to add fake quotes.
20:33:49 <HackEgo> 223|<Gregor> It's impossible to add fake quotes.
20:33:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, you used some Finnish in here
20:33:52 <hqx> `addquote <fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..."
20:33:54 <HackEgo> 224|<fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..."
20:33:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, to oklopol and such
20:34:10 <hqx> I should have added more spaces in-between the messages while I had the chance. Oh well.
20:34:56 <Vorpal> hqx, which one did you remove?
20:35:41 <hqx> Just the one with <>s starting with a space that I already tried to revert, and failed without knowing so. I then readded it without the extra spaces, which I have restored in this timeline.
20:35:48 <hqx> I've just compensated for `revert being broken.
20:36:14 <Vorpal> <hqx> `addquote <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon <-- it is right there?
20:36:21 <Vorpal> hqx, and don't touch it
20:36:24 <hqx> Vorpal: not that one
20:36:26 <Vorpal> the space should be there
20:36:26 <hqx> a different one
20:36:33 <hqx> find out your fucking self
20:36:40 <hqx> i preserved it in /that/ one because cpressey quoted it that way
20:36:43 <hqx> and it was his message
20:36:53 <fizzie> Heh, I was trying to take a sum(length(body)) over all messages in the db, and forgot the length() part; rather curious output:
20:36:54 <fizzie> sqlite> select sum(body) from logs where type = 0;
20:37:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, curious indeed
20:37:34 <fizzie> I guess it coerces everything to numerics, and there's something that starts with "Inf" that gets turned to +infinity.
20:37:58 <hqx> fizzie: Are you cool enough to upload the DB itself? :|
20:38:29 <hqx> uploading to zem.fi would just be a cp if i understand your home-network correctly :P
20:38:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you know any locale like C but with UTF-8?
20:38:33 <hqx> or an rsync i guess
20:38:42 <hqx> Vorpal: en-US' UTF-8 locale
20:38:52 <Vorpal> hqx, no it doesn't sort the right way
20:39:04 <Vorpal> since I need that property here
20:39:05 <hqx> Sgeo|WebPuppy: no
20:39:24 <Vorpal> hqx, does that exist? hm
20:39:39 <hqx> Vorpal: probably not
20:39:53 <Vorpal> it doesn't work, it defaults to C
20:39:57 <hqx> :( my touchpad isn't cool enough to do two-finger scrolling
20:39:59 <fizzie> hqx: Well, I guess I can put it webbable for a while, but thanks to my crummy upload pipe, it'll take a while to download.
20:40:13 <hqx> fizzie: how slow's the pipe?
20:40:21 <hqx> also, it'd take that long anyway
20:40:26 <hqx> since you'd have to upload it somewhere
20:40:27 <Vorpal> <hqx> fizzie: Are you cool enough to upload the DB itself? :| <-- just use the script itself
20:40:36 <Vorpal> since the db is quite large
20:40:40 <Vorpal> hqx, it is mostly automatic anyway
20:40:42 <hqx> no, i haven't got all the logs in the format it wants
20:40:46 <hqx> and that would take longer
20:40:53 <Vorpal> hqx, no, tunes.org is fast
20:41:02 <hqx> i don't want two copies of the text logs.
20:41:21 <Vorpal> hqx, you can't update the db then
20:41:28 <Vorpal> hqx, and what format do you have them in?
20:41:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Can't you just set the LC_CTYPE category to en_US.UTF-8 but LC_COLLATE to C (or POSIX, I guess it's identical).
20:42:04 <fizzie> hqx: But then if I uploaded to some place with a fast pipe, all the interested parties (a total of you) could get it.
20:42:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm... doesn't seem to work for the initdb stuff of postgres
20:42:29 <Vorpal> oh wait, I think I found a way around
20:42:30 <hqx> Vorpal: tunes format
20:42:46 <Vorpal> hqx, he has it in that too? Just with mtime being set as on server
20:42:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: "The category names translate into names of initdb options to override the locale choice for a specific category. For instance, to set the locale to French Canadian, but use U.S. rules for formatting currency, use initdb --locale=fr_CA --lc-monetary=en_US."; something like that.
20:43:14 <hqx> Vorpal: precisely
20:43:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I need to modify which flags /etc/rc.d/posgresql passes to initdb
20:43:24 <hqx> anyway grr databases suck (botte needs to have this crap in a db too)
20:43:27 <Vorpal> so I can use it by hand
20:43:39 <hqx> there needs to be a ... LISPABASE!
20:43:50 -!- Sgeo|WebPuppy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:45:59 <Vorpal> hqx, and yes databases suck
20:46:15 <Vorpal> hqx, but give be a better alternative for this. object db doesn't seem very useful here
20:46:25 <hqx> as I said: Lispabase!
20:46:42 <hqx> Do not ask what it is! I am formulating it right now!
20:47:30 <Vorpal> hqx, so... what is it? :D
20:47:38 <fizzie> hqx: Okay, it's at http://zem.fi/~fis/logs.db -- might spew it out as text/plain, do use wget or curl -- but if you want to keep the .db file up-to-date, you'll need the text logs. (And the mtime trick is only used by the fetch script, the updatedb.py one should run just fine if you just have the text files there; though it might need a two-line tweak if you have the original file names and not my YYYY-mm-dd.log ones.)
20:48:04 <hqx> Does anyone know of a nicer way to write the prolog bagof(X,p(X),X)?
20:48:20 <hqx> fizzie: 403 Joe for-Biden.
20:48:52 <hqx> fizzie: Do they work with your log format in the olde logs?
20:49:01 <hqx> Vorpal: If you start wgetting that too I'll murder you.
20:49:09 <Vorpal> hqx, why would I wget it
20:49:11 <hqx> fizzie: Guh, your upload really is the terrible. Oh well; I can wait 41 minutes.
20:49:13 <hqx> Vorpal: To slow mine down.
20:49:29 <fizzie> hqx: No, updatedb.py just handles the tunes.org text. And the upload's 1 Mbps, approximately.
20:51:39 <cpressey> I would have said Sexpbase, but I admit that does not roll off the tongue as easy
20:52:14 <hqx> The problem with a Lispabase is, like all Lisp database people have realised, the perfect database is basically sub-TC Prolog. So they end up just implementing that. And admittedly, Allegro Cache is probably amazing.
20:52:51 <cpressey> for retrieval expressivity, yes, sub-TC prolog
20:54:10 <cpressey> also, most web services end up needing a query language like that too
20:54:21 <hqx> the problem is making it efficient, ofc
20:54:37 <cpressey> and... undoability is... a parallel problem i guess
20:54:50 <hqx> undoability? like atomic transactions or what?
20:55:01 <hqx> :- dynamic(stored/1).
20:55:01 <hqx> memo(Goal) :- ( stored(Goal) -> true ; Goal, assertz(stored(Goal)) ).
20:55:03 <hqx> oh my god that is beautiful
20:56:08 <cpressey> atomicity is... another parallel problem... maybe if you have it versioned like a VCS... well anyway
20:56:15 <fizzie> Heh, you *can* get gnuplot to produce histograms: just use something like "plot 'data' using (0.2*int($1/0.2)):2 smooth frequency" -- the 0.2*int(x/0.2) bit collapses bins into one X value, and "smooth frequency" makes it sum together such values.
20:56:44 <hqx> hmm, in prolog dbs how do they do multiple columns?
20:56:45 <hqx> i'd guess like
20:56:52 <hqx> col1(ID, Col1)
20:56:55 <hqx> col2(ID, Col2)
20:57:01 <hqx> but what if you don't want an ID?
20:57:06 <hqx> just table(Cols) where Cols is a list?
20:57:22 <cpressey> hell, just use full-TC prolog. you're going to have queries that time out *anyway*
20:57:48 <hqx> <cpressey> hell, just use full-TC prolog. you're going to have queries that time out *anyway*
20:57:55 <hqx> full-TC prolog is even more inefficient, i think
20:59:56 <cpressey> sufficiently clever compiler ftw
21:01:03 <cpressey> (not serious. my ftws are generally at least 50% facetious)
21:01:44 <hqx> prolog really needs that wonderful multiplexer thing. sigh.
21:02:34 <fizzie> Like a man once said, sufficiently clever compilers are indistinguishable from magic.
21:07:53 <hqx> 08:45:54 <ais523> humans are very good at pretending to be IRC bots, I find
21:08:05 <hqx> the great thing about this log is that i've forgotten whether it was really even a bot or not
21:08:18 <hqx> <hqx> prolog really needs that wonderful multiplexer thing. sigh. ;; er, prolog-DB-language :P
21:08:51 <hqx> ahh optbot
21:08:53 <hqx> the mem'rys
21:14:15 <Vorpal> why does postgresql have that elephant logo?
21:14:25 <hqx> why is linux a penguin?
21:14:32 <hqx> also, elephants never phorget.
21:14:47 <fizzie> I would have guessed the "elephants equals memory" thing too.
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21:15:43 <Vorpal> <hqx> why is linux a penguin? <-- I heard the story behind that
21:15:46 <hqx> what's the less(1) for "stfu and display the ansi codes"?
21:15:52 <hqx> Vorpal: that story was one after the fact
21:15:54 <hqx> not before it was drawn
21:15:58 <hqx> unless it's a different one
21:16:01 <Vorpal> as the cmd line switch
21:16:13 <hqx> yeah, -r or -R
21:16:16 <Vorpal> if you mean it mangles terminal control codes
21:16:22 <Vorpal> hqx, one of those yeah
21:16:29 <hqx> $ grep --colour -r optbot . | less -R
21:16:33 <hqx> i used to know how to make this work...
21:16:37 <fizzie> The internet claims this was the source: http://www.pgsql.ru/db/mw/msg.html?mid=1238939
21:16:38 <hqx> still not working though
21:16:43 <Vorpal> hqx, the one about Torvalds and penguins?
21:16:54 <hqx> obscure: a revolver/hit man (Grosse Pt is an anagram of Postgres, and an
21:16:54 <hqx> abbreviation of the title of the new John Cusack movie)
21:17:13 <hqx> Vorpal: well, i remember Torvalds' description of it as just having eaten and then copulated.
21:17:20 <hqx> so, uh, there is that
21:17:32 <Vorpal> hqx, didn't it try to bite him?
21:17:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:17:47 <Vorpal> must have misremembered
21:17:55 <hqx> i don't think there was a real penguin.
21:18:09 <Vorpal> hqx, I think there was one when he was down at some zoo or something
21:18:27 <hqx> i'm not about to grab my copy of Just For Fun and look it up :)
21:18:49 -!- Sgeo|Puppy has joined.
21:19:24 <fizzie> I do remember some sort of penguin assault story, too.
21:19:34 <hqx> so what's the grep | less thing to get the lovely colours?
21:19:54 <hqx> --colour=force
21:20:02 <hqx> $ grep --colour=force -r optbot . | less -R
21:20:06 <hqx> Sgeo|Puppy: what?
21:20:28 <hqx> ./08.08.07:13:55:01 --- nick: OerjansTerribleP -> otpbot
21:20:40 <Sgeo|Puppy> On my HD, there was a NTFS partition and a partition of type 88
21:20:56 <Sgeo|Puppy> Which according to my friend's Knoppix's fdisk -l, is Linux Plaintext
21:21:06 <cpressey> plaintext partition. sounds yummy
21:21:20 <hqx> might merely be corrupted data
21:21:22 <hqx> which you know you have
21:22:01 <hqx> 02:49:42 * tusho writes a parser for a restricted subset of querying english
21:22:01 <hqx> 02:49:53 <tusho> rabbit's tails' lengths -> rabbit.tails.map(length)
21:22:01 <hqx> 02:50:08 <tusho> and then I can parse "x is y", "x has y" and build up a silly little knowledge databse
21:22:01 <hqx> 02:50:11 <tusho> *database
21:22:01 <hqx> 02:50:14 <tusho> via irc!
21:22:06 <hqx> I sure wish you finished writing that, tusho!
21:22:15 <hqx> 03:01:26 <tusho> "the length of the rabbit's tail is 5cm" -> (is (rabbit tail length) (5cm)) is kind of non-trivial...
21:22:19 <hqx> Eff you! Keep working!
21:22:41 <fizzie> Usually it should be 83 or 8e or fd.
21:23:00 <fizzie> "What to do afterwards? Last year I made a hack, reserving type 88 hex for a Linux plaintext partition table. You must be able to find the kernel patch somewhere on Google, otherwise ask. No fdisk required, the partition table is just plaintext that you edit using emacs or vi."
21:23:03 <hqx> fizzie: Here, you write that parser.
21:23:04 <fizzie> Doesn't sound very widely used.
21:23:21 <fizzie> I'll delegate to our natural-language folks.
21:23:27 <hqx> AUUUGUUUUR
21:23:34 <cpressey> regarding linux plaintext partitions
21:23:40 <hqx> i doubt it's really that
21:23:43 <hqx> since he's lost huge swathes of data
21:23:45 <cpressey> nor is gogol, but he has an excuse
21:23:51 <hqx> some stuff is bound to just be corrupted
21:24:23 <cpressey> i like how the list of partition types has come down through the ages like a mythological narrative
21:24:41 <fizzie> Well, it's helpful if you want to know the reason, but I can't seem to be able to find the patch in question.
21:24:50 <cpressey> 88? oh, that's a Linux Plaintext Partition! What's that? Oh, it's...
21:24:58 <Vorpal> <hqx> 02:49:42 * tusho writes a parser for a restricted subset of querying english <-- W|A?
21:25:20 <hqx> Vorpal: no :P
21:25:21 <fizzie> cpressey: It's actually "Linux Plaintext Partition Table", though; seems that some places have cropped the name.
21:25:25 <hqx> all it would do is
21:25:45 <hqx> "x's y" -> x.y; "xs' y" -> xs.map(y)
21:25:49 <hqx> "x of y" -> y.x
21:25:57 <hqx> "the x" -> x, more or less, or perhaps member-of(xs)
21:26:07 <hqx> and infix stuff like "X is Y" -> is(X,Y)
21:26:07 <cpressey> fizzie: that makes more sense. but also provides even more support for my "oral tradition" analogy.
21:26:19 <hqx> plus some stuff for handling plurals like person/people
21:26:40 <cpressey> but, still, writing a partition table in plaintext? that's pretty weird
21:26:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, yeah apart from a handful of well known ones no one really knows
21:27:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, personally I only have types fd and 82
21:27:21 <fizzie> There are a few lists of the types, with descriptions.
21:27:36 <Vorpal> cpressey, yeah you should use XML
21:28:32 <fizzie> Maybe they could invent a XML-based GPTv2 for EFI next.
21:28:44 <fizzie> Then everyone would have to have a XML parser in BIOS.
21:28:49 <fizzie> Now that'd be the awesome.
21:29:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway 83 is the normal linux one. fd is raid with kernel auto config, 8e is linux lvm.
21:29:37 <Vorpal> just to help with any confusion
21:29:56 <fizzie> I know those few; that's why I listed them in particular.
21:31:00 <Vorpal> fdisk lists "a0 IBM Thinkpad-vi" here
21:31:12 <Vorpal> and what is it used for
21:31:25 <fizzie> "Reported for various laptops like IBM Thinkpad, Phoenix NoteBIOS, Toshiba under names like zero-volt suspend partition, suspend-to-disk partition, save-to-disk partition, power-management partition, hibernation partition. Usually at the start or end of the disk area."
21:31:33 <fizzie> Says my handy list at http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/partitions/partition_types-1.html
21:31:43 <fizzie> (The list also contains some links to other lists.)
21:31:46 -!- Sgeo|Puppy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:32:02 <fizzie> Don't know why "-vi" in particular, though.
21:32:14 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:32:54 <fizzie> My fdisk lists a0 as "IBM Thinkpad hi", and it probably should continue "...ernation" or something.
21:34:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems to have LANG set
21:35:28 <fizzie> Heh. According to strings (and probably the corresponding translation files) they have longer names in there, I just don't know how to make fdisk display them.
21:37:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:37:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:37:46 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:48:56 -!- Sgeo|Puppy has joined.
21:55:27 -!- prettyrobots has joined.
21:55:48 -!- prettyrobots has left (?).
22:03:05 -!- hqx has changed nick to alise.
22:05:47 <Sgeo|Puppy> Puppy Linux, there's all these little things getting on my nerves
22:07:59 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/act.png -- first gnuplot-based log-activity plot; doesn't do cumulative yet, does only rectangular-window smoothing, only 2010-01 -- 2010-09 (but with labels on the axis), default color specification isn't so hot.
22:09:25 <fizzie> Also, Y-scale lies a lot. Well, for some values of lying.
22:10:36 <alise> See that drop to the buttom?
22:11:46 <alise> FUCK NSPLUGINWRAPPER
22:21:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, what package do you suggest for interfacing with postgres in python?
22:22:57 <Vorpal> <alise> FUCK NSPLUGINWRAPPER
22:24:12 <Vorpal> alise, now I have that star trek parody song you linked a few days ago (or was it yesterday?) stuck on my head
22:24:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, cumulative is easier to read
22:25:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, but as you can see you dropped below my level several times. But at other times you stood for more than those not on the 10-top list
22:26:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't remember which Postgres/Python thing I've used; something that does the usual dbapi2 or whatever they called that.
22:26:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, both things I can find in arch repos does the dbapi2 stuff
22:26:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, I want to know which one though :/
22:26:58 <fizzie> Psycopg sounds familiar.
22:27:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, does "pypgsql" sound familiar as well?
22:27:32 <fizzie> http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Python -- there certainly seems to be many of them.
22:28:26 <Vorpal> the pypsql is dead anyway it seems
22:30:04 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/act.png -- updated for the full clog range, but not yet cumulative/relative. To get the cumulative sums is easy, but I'm not yet sure how to do filled areas with gnuplot. (That one has a time-step of one day per window, and a window length of one full month, so it averages more.)
22:31:38 <olsner> Nants ingonyama bagithi Baba!
22:32:30 <fizzie> I think I can write cumulative with just a suitable "using" spec, but it's going to be ugley; maybe I should have Python sum them up.
22:33:42 <olsner> hmm, I don't think it's necessarily wise to let python do anything
22:34:31 <fizzie> Python's ternary operator is just freaky, though.
22:34:58 <fizzie> Sure; it's written "x if c else y", and it does "c ? x : y".
22:35:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, it reads like English though?
22:35:22 <fizzie> But it's a real expression, so you can stick it wherever.
22:35:52 <fizzie> It reads a bit like english, but not so much.
22:35:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, I remember seeing some rationale for it
22:36:19 <fizzie> They do have a rationale about using it in cases where x is the "usual" case, and y the "exceptional" value.
22:36:46 <olsner> rationale? if it's more articulate than "ook? ook!" I'll be officially surprised
22:37:08 <Vorpal> olsner, fizzie posted it
22:37:39 <olsner> Vorpal: oh, is that what he meant by "ook? ook!"? I see :)
22:39:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm python docs seem to suggest using a cursor and execute on that
22:39:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, rather than doing it directly on the connection
22:39:46 <fizzie> I don't know either; doing it directly on the connection creates a cursor and runs execute on the new one.
22:39:58 <olsner> hmm, perhaps they stole it from a VB style-guide or something?
22:41:49 <fizzie> Hm, well, a cumulative plot: http://zem.fi/~fis/actf.png
22:42:49 <Vorpal> AttributeError: 'psycopg2._psycopg.connection' object has no attribute 'execute'
22:42:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, not for psycopg2 it seems
22:43:04 <fizzie> Heh, maybe they haven't defined the shortcuts, then.
22:50:51 <fizzie> Well, to complete the trifecta, relative-activity plot from gnuplot: http://zem.fi/~fis/actr.png -- I especially like it how it put the nicknames behind the filled plot, not in front.
22:53:09 <fizzie> Incidentally, according to this data there has been one 31-day period during which alise has been responsible for 46.1 % of all the lines said on the channel. It's not quite half, but impressively close. (It probably would go well over one half if I shortened the window from month to, say, wekk.)
22:55:03 <fizzie> Oh, actually that's just an artefact; the 46.1 % peak is the window at 2010-08-29, which isn't a full month long, only half. But still, there's something at least very close to 45 % in autumn 2009.
22:57:59 <fizzie> Also funny how pre-2006 summer there's been a completely different set of people talking.
22:58:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:00:18 <fizzie> (Cf. http://zem.fi/~fis/act-old.png )
23:01:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:02:01 <fizzie> (Er, except actually I; I had managed to hide my own stuff from the actr.png I had up earlier, fixed now.)
23:02:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, hrrm: http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Todo:Collate
23:03:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Heh, sounds messy.
23:04:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, can you fix the nick labels on http://zem.fi/~fis/actr.png ?
23:05:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: From the section on index use on LIKE expressions, which is basically where the collation makes a difference: "The optimizer can also use a B-tree index for queries involving the pattern matching operators LIKE and ~ if the pattern is a constant and is anchored to the beginning of the string — for example, col LIKE 'foo%' or col ~ '^foo', but not col LIKE '%bar'. However, if your server does not use the C locale you will need to create the index with
23:05:06 <fizzie> a special operator class to support indexing of pattern-matching queries. See Section 11.8 below."
23:05:28 <fizzie> I can make the graph endpoint to something like middle of 2011, that should unhide the nicks.
23:05:33 <fizzie> I don't quite know how to get them on top.
23:05:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, couldn't you put them on the side
23:05:56 <fizzie> I guess I can do that, too.
23:06:08 <fizzie> It makes the graph area smaller, but then again so does moving the endpoint.
23:06:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, just made the total drawing wider!
23:07:26 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure what the optimal width is.
23:07:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, being able to do:
23:07:33 <Vorpal> AS ENUM ('msg', 'act', 'notice', 'join', 'part',
23:07:33 <Vorpal> 'quit', 'kick', 'nick', 'topic', 'mode');
23:07:48 <fizzie> Anyway, actr.png quick-fixed with "set key outside right center".
23:08:56 <fizzie> Also, I'unno; I'd rather do the types in the client app, just in case the SQL API can't handle customizations like that. The esolog.py that does the esolog.logrange() generator on-the-fly maps the numbers to strings like that and back.
23:09:18 <Vorpal> Sgeo|Puppy, you are, in *
23:09:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo|Puppy, you simply don't talk enough
23:09:36 <fizzie> Either that, or you use non-fixed nicks too much.
23:09:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could try to merge Sgeo* to see if it matters
23:09:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, like you should merge fizzie fizzien900
23:10:07 <fizzie> I could, yes. I did get Sgeo in the 2010-only plot.
23:10:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, I always liked to read the latter fizzien 900
23:10:22 <Vorpal> rather than fizzie n900
23:10:32 <Sgeo|Puppy> Also, I want to know the date I first appeared here
23:10:44 <Vorpal> Sgeo|Puppy, just import the thing into your db
23:11:00 <Vorpal> Sgeo|Puppy, complete clog logs
23:11:25 <Vorpal> I'll check for first date for you
23:11:28 <fizzie> Sgeo|Puppy: 2005-11-10 21:48:04, according to clog.
23:11:43 <fizzie> (That's a nick-change from Sgeo to Sgep.)
23:11:50 <Sgeo|Puppy> Didn't realize there was a full log thing
23:12:30 <Vorpal> 91399|2005-11-10 21:48:04|Sgeo|||7|Sgep
23:12:39 <Vorpal> I think it is a nick change
23:12:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: <fizzie> Sgeo|Puppy: 2005-11-10 21:48:04, according to clog.
23:12:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: <fizzie> (That's a nick-change from Sgeo to Sgep.)
23:13:00 <fizzie> "Is there an echo in here?"
23:13:13 <fizzie> Aaanyway, link to logs is in the topic.
23:13:18 <fizzie> It's always been in the topic.
23:13:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, first line you said was in: 107493|2006-01-23 02:05:47|Sgeo|||0|Bye all
23:13:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo|Puppy, ... which bot?
23:13:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo|Puppy, what do you think we did for these stats?
23:14:01 <fizzie> Sgeo|Puppy: There scripts we've been discussing have been posted, though.
23:14:01 <Vorpal> Sgeo|Puppy, we imported them into a db from those files!
23:14:30 <Vorpal> just grep the last log for sprunge
23:14:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, unless you made any further updates?
23:14:46 <fizzie> Sgeo|Puppy: Or: http://p.zem.fi/esolog-fetch.py http://p.zem.fi/esolog-updatedb.py
23:14:56 <fizzie> That's not "further updates", but it does include your fixed regexps.
23:15:05 -!- Sgeo|Puppy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:15:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, what you update in place?
23:15:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sure, why not?-)
23:15:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, <insert something about keeping urls unchanging once published>
23:16:11 <fizzie> There's no version number, so any changes are fair game.
23:16:22 -!- Sgeo|FsckThatCli has joined.
23:16:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is strange that the first sgeo message with type 0 is "107493|2006-01-23 02:05:47|Sgeo|||0|Bye all"
23:16:42 <fizzie> If it makes you feel better, consider those URLs to unchangingly point to the latest version.
23:16:54 <Vorpal> Sgeo|FsckThatCli, 170 MB or such, >200 MB when importing it into the db
23:16:57 <Vorpal> for the db file itself
23:17:37 <Vorpal> the latter contain all *.log
23:17:55 <fizzie> 66574|2005-09-17 21:16:51|Sgep|||0|Hi all
23:17:59 <fizzie> That's the first Sgep message.
23:18:42 <alise> <fizzie> Incidentally, according to this data there has been one 31-day period during which alise has been responsible for 46.1 % of all the lines said on the channel. It's not quite half, but impressively close. (It probably would go well over one half if I shortened the window from month to, say, wekk.)
23:18:42 <alise> <fizzie> Oh, actually that's just an artefact; the 46.1 % peak is the window at 2010-08-29, which isn't a full month long, only half. But still, there's something at least very close to 45 % in autumn 2009.
23:18:44 <alise> i am fucking awesome
23:19:08 <Vorpal> <fizzie> That's the first Sgep message. <-- ah yes
23:19:10 <fizzie> alise: I'm sure I could think of alternative adjectives, too.
23:19:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Maybe a off-by-one error incremented his nick accidentally.
23:19:46 <alise> <Sgeo|Puppy> Yes, I know where the 1 day logs are
23:19:46 <alise> <Sgeo|Puppy> Do I have to combine them myself?
23:20:51 <Vorpal> 66580|2005-09-17 21:16:51|Sgep|||0|Hi all
23:20:52 <Vorpal> 66649|2005-09-17 22:39:11|Sgep|||1|is using konq, and can't figure out Java, so I can't really see EsoShell :-(
23:20:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo|FsckThatCli, what was esoshell?
23:21:22 <Sgeo|FsckThatCli> 15:37:23 <calamari> ihope: http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/ 15:37:45 <calamari> ihope: it allows you to use certain esoteric languages straight from your web browser
23:21:49 <fizzie> Heh, last first-page google-result for esoshell: "Search Kazaa for esoshell brainfuck - esolang albums. Page 1 of 0 ..." Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of albums like that.
23:22:23 <Vorpal> http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/ = 403
23:22:37 <Vorpal> anyone seen calamari recently?
23:23:04 <Vorpal> 1804491|2010-09-15 07:16:24|calamari|||5|Quit: Leaving
23:23:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo|FsckThatCli, what was PESOIX?
23:24:26 <Vorpal> sqlite> select count(*) from logs where type = 0 and body like '%?';
23:24:31 <Vorpal> that's a lot of questions
23:24:45 <Sgeo|FsckThatCli> Hear complains about the name being too similar, so go with phonetics: P-ESO-X = P S O X
23:25:13 <fizzie> sqlite> select count(*) from logs where type = 0 and body like '%? ';
23:25:16 <fizzie> That's probably mostly me.
23:25:53 <fizzie> sqlite> select nick, count(*) as k from logs where type = 0 and body like '%? ' group by nick order by k desc;
23:25:58 <fizzie> Well, it's not *only* me.
23:26:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, why is it mostly you though
23:26:26 <Vorpal> that is the number of lines ending in ?
23:26:37 <fizzie> I'm sure I've told the story before; we had a babblebot that tried to answer anything that ended with "?" on another channel, so I got into a habit of adding a space after a trailing ? to keep it quiet.
23:26:47 <Vorpal> select nick, count(*) as cnt from logs where type = 0 and body like '%?' group by nick order by cnt desc LIMIT 20;
23:27:10 <quintopia> fizzie: that sounds like the worst bot ever!
23:27:13 <alise> <fizzie> alise: I'm sure I could think of alternative adjectives, too. ;; awesomely fucking?
23:27:30 <Vorpal> alise, when did fizzie say that?
23:28:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you merge ehird* into one post for the count here
23:30:20 <Vorpal> alise, hah I win over you. I asked more questions than you. Not a large difference (24763 vs 32918).
23:31:05 <Vorpal> sqlite> select count(*) as cnt from logs where (nick like 'Sgeo%') and type = 0 and body like '%?' LIMIT 20;
23:31:16 <Vorpal> Sgeo|FsckThatCli, you asked quite a few. Hm should do questions / total lines
23:31:19 <Vorpal> that would be interesting
23:32:18 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, hah I win over you. I asked more questions than you. Not a large difference (24763 vs 32918). ;; so i'm wiser.
23:32:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: You have more comments in general, though; you should compare the question fractions instead.
23:32:31 <fizzie> sqlite> select qn, (kq+0.0)/k from (select nick as qn, count(*) as kq from logs where type = 0 and body like '%?' group by nick) join (select nick as tn, count(*) as k from logs where type = 0 group by nick) on qn = tn where k > 100 order by (kq+0.0)/k desc limit 10;
23:32:31 <fizzie> ELIZA|0.675496688741722
23:32:31 <fizzie> amca|0.461077844311377
23:32:31 <fizzie> KajirBot|0.458536585365854
23:32:45 <fizzie> That's "fraction of questions" for people with more than 100 comments in total.
23:33:01 <fizzie> (There are a few nicks with only questions, which is pretty boring.)
23:33:09 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: You have more comments in general, though; you should compare the question fractions instead. <-- hm what do you mean
23:33:18 <Vorpal> I thought that was what I said
23:33:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, it was a reply to the earlier comment on you winning; I was busy writing that statement.
23:33:44 <alise> ./07.11.24:16:50:37 --- quit: KajirBot (Remote closed the connection)
23:33:44 <alise> ./09.01.19:10:12:16 <ehird_> nope, KajirBot and seabot
23:34:21 <fizzie> Filtering on >1000 comments gives real people: http://p.zem.fi/zpw4 for top-10.
23:34:36 <fizzie> (Also, Sgeo wins there.)
23:35:06 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:36:13 <Vorpal> Vorpal: 32918 / 223498 = 0.147285
23:36:14 <Vorpal> alise: 24763 / 392906 = 0.063025
23:36:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo: 5615 / 25044 = 0.224205
23:36:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is with nick aggregation
23:36:35 <Vorpal> alise, no it means that you are not curious
23:37:12 <alise> i just work things out myself instead :)
23:37:31 <Vorpal> alise, no I much prefer my interpretation here!
23:37:43 <alise> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: no: we're the ones suffering. trust me.
23:37:54 <alise> ./09.01.19:10:13:23 <KajirBot> sorry, i haven't eaten something before. have you got ten black holes?
23:37:59 <alise> N... not really, no.
23:38:22 <alise> 08:10:36 <Sgeo> Why is it that it seems no one cares?
23:38:22 <alise> 08:12:01 * pikhq wakes
23:38:22 <alise> 08:12:15 <Sgeo> hi pikhq
23:38:22 <alise> 08:12:22 <ehird`_> Sgeo: because people do other things than talk about psox
23:38:22 <alise> 08:12:56 * Sgeo goes to #PSOX
23:38:23 <Vorpal> alise, markov chain I presume? Or something else
23:38:33 <alise> Vorpal: no, that was when you tried to eat it anything other than a ridiculous item
23:39:05 <alise> pikhq: Have you read The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect?
23:39:07 <Vorpal> that makes a lot more sense
23:39:44 <Vorpal> no, don't pollute the sun!
23:40:34 <Sgeo|FsckThatCli> It suddenly occurs to me that that will not result in a black hoe
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23:42:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo|FsckThatCli, merging sgep* into your stats too your question ratio goes down to 0.223952
23:43:15 <Vorpal> this would indicate you have become more questioning over time perhaps
23:43:21 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:43:27 <Vorpal> probably within the statistical error margin though
23:44:14 <Vorpal> 0.2 exactly. but 53/265 shows how small the data set is
23:44:18 <Sgeo|FsckThatCli> We should look for days where for some reason, questioning rations for people, at least one person, are particularly high
23:44:21 <pikhq> alise: Yes, I have.
23:44:26 <Vorpal> so unlikely to be statistically significant
23:44:39 <alise> pikhq: I'm reading it now.
23:44:57 <Vorpal> Sgeo|FsckThatCli, I'm matching on Sgeo% not Sgeo
23:45:24 <Vorpal> <Sgeo|FsckThatCli> We should look for days where for some reason, questioning rations for people, at least one person, are particularly high <-- you do that, not me
23:46:35 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I suspect if we cut away your monologues you will have a lot higher question ratio
23:46:49 <alise> 11:11:35 * Sgeo is here only for a few min right now
23:46:50 <alise> 11:11:42 <Sgeo> I'll be back laterish maybe
23:46:50 <alise> 11:12:31 <Sgeo> um, actually, I can't risk the computer beeping
23:46:50 <alise> 11:12:31 <Sgeo> Bye
23:46:55 <alise> Vorpal: my monologues usually have a lot of questions...
23:47:01 <alise> I prefer "soliloquies"
23:47:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: Group over year to find change-over-time, something like this:
23:47:08 <fizzie> sqlite> select qyr, qn, (kq+0.0)/k from (select substr(tstamp,1,4) as qyr, nick as qn, count(*) as kq from logs where type = 0 and body like '%?' group by qyr, qn) join (select substr(tstamp,1,4) as tyr, nick as tn, count(*) as k from logs where type = 0 group by tyr, tn) on qyr = tyr and qn = tn where k > 1000 order by (kq+0.0)/k desc limit 10;
23:47:14 <fizzie> 2007|Sgeo|0.278288868445262
23:47:18 <fizzie> 2008|Sgeo|0.264714946070878
23:47:21 <fizzie> 2010|Phantom_Hoover|0.225965296232609
23:47:25 <fizzie> 2007|ihope|0.224911749873928
23:47:28 <fizzie> 2009|Sgeo|0.221869590305828
23:47:29 <fizzie> (Apologies for the trailing spaces there.)
23:47:44 <Vorpal> alise, well yes but this only matches end of line
23:48:01 <Vorpal> <fizzie> (Apologies for the trailing spaces there.) <-- where
23:48:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway this doesn't do the all-important nick aggregation
23:48:36 <fizzie> Those lines have trailing spaces; probably not noticeable on some clients, or screens wider than my phone.
23:48:38 <Vorpal> without which I consider the results useless
23:48:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, they were stripped here
23:49:01 <fizzie> It's a hack, not something "all-important".
23:49:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, it's all important, it lowers my question ratio a bit
23:49:50 <alise> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: Uhh?
23:49:52 <alise> What makes you think that?
23:49:55 <fizzie> I consider any results that just match for "?" at eol "useless", so there.
23:50:19 <alise> they act nothing alike.
23:50:30 <alise> beep may have been in response to
23:50:31 <alise> <alise> 11:11:35 * Sgeo is here only for a few min right now
23:50:31 <alise> <alise> 11:11:42 <Sgeo> I'll be back laterish maybe
23:50:31 <alise> <alise> 11:12:31 <Sgeo> um, actually, I can't risk the computer beeping
23:50:31 <alise> <alise> 11:12:31 <Sgeo> Bye
23:50:32 <quintopia> perhaps i am and have changed a lot?
23:50:38 <alise> quintopia: are you?
23:50:45 <alise> you still play agora
23:50:48 <alise> and act exactly like you did
23:50:49 <alise> so i doubt that :p
23:51:10 <alise> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: irrelevant
23:51:20 <quintopia> the beep was in response to a wall of text i didn't feel like reading
23:52:02 <quintopia> i haven't finished reading subnormality yet. i'll get to it
23:52:04 <Vorpal> #feather-lang is lonely, while waiting for ais
23:52:28 <fizzie> Okay, here's something that doesn't need nick-aggregation: the most confused month of #esoteric:
23:52:31 <fizzie> sqlite> select qyr, (kq+0.0)/k from (select substr(tstamp,1,7) as qyr, count(*) as kq from logs where type = 0 and body like '%?' group by qyr) join (select substr(tstamp,1,7) as tyr, count(*) as k from logs where type = 0 group by tyr) on qyr = tyr order by (kq+0.0)/k desc limit 10;
23:52:36 <fizzie> 2004-03|0.153846153846154
23:52:40 <quintopia> it does indeed have a lot of text, but it isn't frequently published, so it's easy to stay afloat
23:52:40 <alise> Vorpal: you realise he hates being pestered about Feather?
23:52:57 <alise> * Sgeo|FsckThatCli pushes Virus Comix onto quintopia ;; he linked two yesterday :P
23:53:06 <Vorpal> alise, actually he bought it up a few weeks ago, saying he had written a bit of code on it
23:53:11 <Vorpal> alise, without me mentioning it
23:53:20 <fizzie> 15.4 % questions. (The second place goes to 2007-04 with 13.0 %.)
23:53:22 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:53:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about last full month
23:53:45 <alise> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: ?
23:53:51 <alise> Vorpal: *brought, and yes
23:53:56 <alise> Vorpal: but he wasn't pestered about it
23:54:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, still quite confused
23:54:08 <alise> fizzie: fff no space between number and %
23:54:19 <alise> 15:37:21 <Sgeo> erm, I don't know C
23:54:19 <alise> 15:37:27 <Sgeo> What's write(), and how does it work?
23:54:47 <Vorpal> alise, i should start writing like augur, just to annoy you
23:55:21 <Vorpal> write() is not C, it's POSIX
23:55:44 <fizzie> alise: Finnish grammar rules put a space there, blame them for forcing the habit on me.
23:55:56 <quintopia> poll: what's you favorite major syntax style? C, Scheme/LISP, Smalltalk, Forth, Prolog, Ada, assembly?
23:56:04 <alise> quintopia: AliseLang
23:56:07 <Vorpal> I think Swedish put a space in front of % too
23:56:15 <alise> forth has no syntax
23:56:21 <quintopia> alise: since when is that "major"?
23:56:30 <Vorpal> quintopia, something between lisp and perl is my answer
23:56:35 <zzo38> alise: Yes it has no syntax that is why sometimes you make syntax for some commands if they are needed
23:56:36 <quintopia> it does. it consists of sentences separated by spaces
23:56:37 <Sgeo|FsckThatCli> US English grammar rules require punctuation in ", and I can't stand it
23:56:41 <alise> quintopia: i refuse to answer populist questions
23:56:49 <alise> because you can write a word that parses it as anything
23:56:56 <alise> technically, the default compiler word separates by space, yes
23:56:59 <alise> but that's just one of many
23:57:08 <alise> and there's nothing stopping you writing a word "c" that interprets everything after it as regular C code
23:57:11 <alise> so no: Forth has no syntax.
23:57:23 <alise> <Vorpal> quintopia, something between lisp and perl is my answer
23:57:27 <alise> what's your favourite letter of the alphabet?
23:57:31 <alise> "Something between A and Z."
23:57:42 <Vorpal> alise, yes, closed interval!
23:57:54 <alise> i refuse to answer :)
23:58:13 <quintopia> i've got a new lang in mind, and i want it to be very comfortable to write
23:58:15 <fizzie> The question stands on its head and wags its tail.
23:58:22 <Vorpal> quintopia, I would say Erlang or Haskell then. They are not in the list but the list doesn't contain any nice syntaxes.
23:58:24 <quintopia> so i just wanted to know what makes people feel msot at home
23:58:31 <alise> erlang's syntax is gross
23:58:38 <alise> it looks like prolog while acting nothing like prolog
23:58:43 <alise> and prolog doesn't have the prettiest syntax in the first place
23:58:50 <alise> quintopia: fuck most people
23:58:52 <alise> write what you like
23:58:59 <quintopia> i'm going to lump them all together haskell/prolog/erlang
23:59:06 <alise> haskell is nothing like the others
23:59:08 <Vorpal> quintopia, they are not like each other
23:59:14 <zzo38> alise: For favorite letter of alphabet ,but what if you want alphabet other than English alphabet, then it won't be A to Z?
23:59:15 <alise> anyway i refuse to answer because they'll dilute your language into something everyone else likes
23:59:19 <quintopia> yes, well, i just did it! mwahahaaha
23:59:20 <alise> instead of something you like, which is where innovation comes in
23:59:29 <Sgeo|FsckThatCli> quintopia, it is obvious that you know no Haskell, Prolog, or Erlang
23:59:36 <alise> zzo38: en:alphabet == latin alphabet almost always.
23:59:38 <quintopia> alise: i resent the implication that i can't stand on my own and be innovative
00:00:04 <quintopia> well, i know no haskell or erlang. but i was just lumping them together to be silly anyway ;_)
00:00:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about a top-speaker-per-month-list?
00:00:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, with nick aggregation of course
00:00:34 <zzo38> There is another, what about TeX syntax? And then, there are also many others
00:00:41 <alise> what kind of smiley is ;_)
00:00:50 <Vorpal> Sgeo|FsckThatCli, only in appearance, not in behaviour.
00:00:57 <quintopia> IN ANY CASE, my list was not meant to be all-inclusive, just a few ideas to start you thinking
00:00:58 <Vorpal> alise, one with a 90° rotation in the middle
00:01:04 <quintopia> i'm serious though. i'll look at haskell
00:01:21 <alise> quintopia: think of how you want to write some code
00:01:27 <Sgeo|FsckThatCli> Haskell is a language that everyone should learn. FOr some weird reason, I really, really want to just TEACH it to someone
00:01:29 <alise> don't look at other people's shit :P
00:01:39 <alise> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: i very much doubt you'd be a good teacher
00:01:43 <quintopia> i've already done that alise. and i hit some writer's block. hence, asking for ideas.
00:01:48 <alise> i also doubt you know haskell enough to anyway :P
00:01:58 <zzo38> Sgeo|FsckThatCli<CTCP>ACTION OUCH<CTCP>
00:02:02 <alise> quintopia: implement it, write stuff that would use it, do whatever comes first to mind
00:02:13 <alise> zzo38: did you really just use CTCP in the middle of a message and expect it to work
00:02:18 <alise> quintopia: yeah writing a language you like how weird
00:02:21 <alise> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: he doesn't have a /me
00:02:25 <alise> it's technically valid what he did
00:02:32 <quintopia> alise: that's the kind of attitude that resulted in Perl
00:02:33 <alise> nothing supports that.
00:02:40 <alise> quintopia: i never said make something inconsistent
00:02:44 <zzo38> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: No, I meant to type it that way
00:02:46 <alise> i just said write it how seems to be nicest when you run into it
00:02:48 <alise> then implement that
00:02:52 <alise> zzo38: no client supports that properly.
00:03:16 <quintopia> well, i know what would BE nicest to me in an abstract sense, just not what specifics match my abstract feelings.
00:03:27 <zzo38> OK. I just wanted to see what happened to other people when I did do like that, regardless of what client support it. I know I think it is not a proper command
00:04:23 <alise> quintopia: try meditating
00:04:30 <alise> zzo38: it's valid by the ctcp spec
00:04:33 <alise> but nothing implements it
00:05:05 <quintopia> alise: i can't walk the line between meditation and sleep >.>
00:05:11 <alise> quintopia: ur doin it rong
00:05:21 <alise> (note: i have never meditated)
00:05:27 <zzo38> alise: O, it is valid? Then everyone's client is just broken in that case.
00:05:30 <alise> i meant in the more introspective intellectual sense
00:05:42 <alise> zzo38: Or just not taking a crappy standard literally.
00:05:49 <Vorpal> <zzo38> Sgeo|FsckThatCli[0001]ACTION OUCH[0001] ?
00:05:50 <quintopia> i'm practicing group meditation right now
00:05:53 <Vorpal> zzo38, what was that about
00:06:18 <alise> quintopia: not going too well, is it:P
00:06:38 <zzo38> quintopia: About nothing
00:06:44 <quintopia> but at the very least i've helped distract people from the logs
00:07:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can do "top speaker per month" pretty easily if you want everyone on the list, but "top N per month" is a lot messier, since you can't easily apply a per-month limit expression. (Nick aggregation is just a matter of terribly ugly conditional expression in place of the nick column.)
00:07:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, a sub query for limiting it per month maybe
00:08:05 <quintopia> what i want to see is more languages in the "computes all functions that can be guaranteed at the outset to halt" family
00:08:11 <alise> quintopia: impossible
00:08:24 <alise> functions can halt but have no proof of halting
00:08:30 <alise> i guess your definition sorta excludes it
00:08:37 <alise> you're pretty much limited to primitive recursive functions
00:08:44 <alise> and such languages already exist
00:08:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, something with select distinct perhaps?
00:08:59 <quintopia> but i don't think there are enough
00:09:03 <alise> Coq is more powerful by far, I think.
00:10:10 <quintopia> coq doesn't seem to be for application purposes...if you're talking about this automated prover thing
00:10:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:10:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: I tried to write something like that; it's... well, non-trivial. When you apply a subquery per each row, you can only return one value; and if you're joining subqueries, you don't get a listing of months. You can do it either by unioning manually N queries for N months, or possibly N "select Nth person" queries.
00:10:36 <alise> quintopia: a common method of using it is "write Coq code to implement some data structure, algorithm, etc.; prove it correct; extract the code (Coq can do this) to Haskell/O'Caml"
00:10:40 <alise> tada, formally-verified library
00:11:03 <alise> but there are many proof-only developments in it, yes, like Goedel's first incompleteness theorem and the four-colour theorem
00:11:18 <fizzie> An aggregate function that would concatenate all returned rows into one string would work, but doesn't (at least standardly) exist.
00:12:04 <Sgeo|FsckThatCli> The thing that drove me away from Haskell last time was things like zippers. It should not be a headache to implement things that are easy imperitively
00:12:22 <fizzie> PL/SQL and its ilk (PL/pgSQL) can of course do it easily, but that's no longer SQL.
00:13:05 -!- augur has joined.
00:13:29 <fizzie> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: "Do it in the client app" is, I think, pretty much it.
00:13:37 <alise> fizzie: pah it's easy with LISPABASE
00:14:14 <fizzie> alise: In LISPABASE everthing's sunshine and rainbows and unicorns, right.
00:16:03 <fizzie> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: It has a bit nonstandard implementation of triggers; you could get top-N-per-month with those, assuming the triggers are allowed to write to other tables. It still won't be a single query, though.
00:16:29 <zzo38> I think it can be possible to use TeX to make music synthesis, and then you have a program that reads the DVI file to play the music
00:16:41 <quintopia> as long as those triggers don't retrigger the original triggers!
00:16:45 <alise> fizzie: LISPABASE: the conventionalness of Prolog combined with the easy-understandibility of Lisp code!
00:17:36 <Sgeo|FsckThatCli> I don't get it. is alise suggesting that Lisp isn't easy to understand?
00:17:53 <alise> Well, not for most people.
00:18:15 <fizzie> Triggers only run on modifications, too; a "more pure" solution would be completely read-only w.r.t the db.
00:18:47 <Sgeo|FsckThatCli> I'm wondering if programming in SQLite/Triggers would be interesting
00:22:11 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: I tried to write something like that; it's... well, non-trivial. When you apply a subquery per each row, you can only return one value; and if you're joining subqueries, you don't get a listing of months. You can do it either by unioning manually N queries for N months, or possibly N "select Nth person" queries. <-- hm.. or move the picking of top N names to an application program
00:22:54 <fizzie> Yes, that's the usual cop-out.
00:24:34 <Vorpal> <fizzie> alise: In LISPABASE everthing's sunshine and rainbows and unicorns, right. <-- but unicorns are vicious bastards!
00:24:47 <Vorpal> look at the classical unicorn
00:24:55 <alise> i love how easy it is to segfault gprolog
00:25:03 <alise> | ?- append(X,Y,[X,Y]).
00:25:03 <alise> Segmentation fault
00:25:34 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
00:25:42 <Vorpal> fungot, chrono triggers
00:25:42 <fungot> Vorpal: i must ponder this turn of events, it can have a powerful effect on time. ask the one to bring back lost loved ones... it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
00:25:51 <Vorpal> fungot, and what about the sword
00:25:52 <fungot> Vorpal: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch.
00:26:01 <Vorpal> fungot, no... the sword I said
00:26:02 <alise> ./09.01.19:10:15:40 <KajirBot> fungot, will I marry me?
00:26:02 <fungot> Vorpal: the masamune! ride again!
00:26:02 <alise> ./09.01.19:10:15:41 <fungot> KajirBot: unfortunately i guess you would have a lot to do with
00:26:02 <fungot> alise: but, we are far outnumbered! dalton! leave her alone!
00:26:02 <fungot> alise: these unique items make us invincible! could the heavens. burrowing deep into the the world's life energy! it's shut tight... great weather. groovin' on life... hey! did you people just come out of the closet? get out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house.
00:26:29 <Vorpal> fungot, the sword what can't it stop alone?
00:26:29 <fungot> alise: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! i'll be right there!
00:26:44 <fungot> Vorpal: these unique items make us invincible! after them!
00:26:49 <alise> that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop!
00:26:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not a new bug.
00:26:53 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> fungot, the sword what can't it stop alone?
00:26:53 <Vorpal> <fungot> alise: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! i'll be right there
00:26:53 <fungot> Vorpal: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! go!! this is for you guys are a lot! the hero has made the epoch, your wings! now this is a treasure there... found the treasure!! probably filled with mystical forest powers. we are immortal! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
00:26:53 <fungot> Vorpal: these unique items make us invincible! how can i do for you? thanks! it's about the missing queen. she still looks so much like leene, that they will take you to your place of execution?! strange, but!?
00:26:58 <Vorpal> that is completely wrong
00:27:15 <oerjan> fizzie: did you make the bug fix for fungot's pseudorandom selections permanent?
00:27:15 <fungot> oerjan: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10. all functions are down... got the terra arm and the crisis arm! found a dreamstone! i'd forgotten how beautiful they are the evildoers? magus's lair! you brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
00:27:21 <alise> Vorpal: no, i pinged fungot
00:27:21 <fungot> alise: you, with you standing around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind the floor to fight the mother brain, yet!
00:27:29 <fizzie> oerjan: I believe I did.
00:27:34 <Vorpal> alise, yes you did but count the number of times
00:27:47 <Vorpal> alise, it replied one more than the number of times you pinged it
00:27:54 <fizzie> Anyway, the "answers to the wrong person" is a known thing.
00:27:58 <Vorpal> and directly after I highlighted it
00:28:09 <Vorpal> fungot, tell me about the damn sword now
00:28:09 <fungot> Vorpal: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!! i owe you one! you saved the day of lavos"... go to " mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
00:28:12 <fungot> Vorpal: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!! they're escaping! 1b is escaping! so! that cathedral to the west?... yes! well then rest and relax! huh?
00:28:19 <fungot> Vorpal: frog will do. well, i better! whoosh! i wonder how everyone! humans! they're my friends! you'll see, you'll be in danger. open hatch.
00:28:26 <fungot> alise: that no one was allowed to use the crane, enter any two of these letters, a b y.
00:28:27 <Vorpal> fungot, fine, suit yourself :P
00:28:27 <fungot> Vorpal: you! take! we find!
00:28:43 <alise> i'd say hypocrite but that's wearing kinda thin today!
00:29:02 <alise> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: Vorpal did that word-per-line thing earlier today.
00:29:09 <alise> also, stop freaking out about that
00:29:33 <fizzie> I also take offense on "completely wrong"; it generated the text just fine, it just directed to the wrong person. That happens to the best of us! (Like cpressey; not that I'm implying anything about relative goodness levels here.)
00:29:34 <Vorpal> <alise> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: Vorpal did that word-per-line thing earlier today. <-- hm, which one. or did you mean fizzie that did the graphs for that
00:29:42 <alise> Vorpal: i mean you talked
00:29:54 <Vorpal> not graphs of words per line
00:30:42 <Vorpal> char per line is only okay if
00:30:47 <fizzie> That's going to hurt your line-length distributions, you know. :p "Won't anyone think of the line-length distributions!"
00:30:47 <quintopia> i thought this channel was getting easy to read for a moment
00:30:51 <Vorpal> (sorry for that one, couldn't resist)
00:31:19 <Vorpal> Sgeo|FsckThatCli, run wc -c on it
00:31:32 <alise> what about convert the ascii to binary
00:31:34 <alise> then one bit per line
00:31:53 <oerjan> Vorpal: people here have _low_ self-discipline
00:32:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, err yes, what about it
00:32:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: regarding your resist
00:32:30 <quintopia> vorpal: as a result, the chan moves faster
00:32:37 <alise> quintopia: well "hi!" would be 6,842,657 lines long.
00:32:54 <oerjan> !haskell do [1..20]; "Haskell! "
00:32:55 <Vorpal> alise, how did you arrive at that number
00:33:04 <EgoBot> "Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! Haskell! "
00:33:07 <quintopia> if everyone had high self-discipline, they'd be doing something productive rather than calculating what 24 bits is in unary digits
00:33:13 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, what is the formula for calculating it
00:33:14 <quintopia> and thus the channel would be slow
00:33:24 <alise> Vorpal: look at the ascii in binary
00:33:27 <alise> interpret that number as unary
00:33:39 <Vorpal> alise, I'm trying to remember what the unary encoding is
00:33:48 <alise> just 1 repeated N times
00:33:53 <alise> for my work of art
00:33:55 <zzo38> My idea is to add PicoC into Enhanced CWEB
00:34:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:34:31 -!- alise has joined.
00:34:34 <Vorpal> oerjan, strange kick reason
00:34:54 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*alise@91.104.246.*.
00:35:55 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -bc *!*alise@91.104.246.*.
00:35:55 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +c.
00:36:19 <oerjan> er i have no idea why that -c happened
00:36:28 <oerjan> i just did /mode -b *!*alise@91.104.246.* #esoteric
00:36:46 -!- alise has joined.
00:36:50 <alise> that was my client
00:36:53 <alise> i said nothing after the first kick
00:36:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, #esoteric first ?
00:37:08 <Vorpal> alise, maybe, use /flushq in xchat
00:37:11 <quintopia> alise: you said it all before. you pasted it all at once right?
00:37:37 <oerjan> Vorpal: maybe, i couldn't remember the order but thought it would just give an error if it was wrong
00:37:38 <alise> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: is there anything you can't turn into an inane sexual reference?
00:37:44 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
00:38:13 <Sgeo|FsckThatCli> It's weird, there was a time that I'd never make a sexual reference
00:38:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, unlikely. That would be far too easy to use
00:38:20 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:38:50 -!- augur has joined.
00:38:58 <quintopia> when i do sexual references, i like to use surgical redaction.
00:39:04 <Vorpal> <alise> Sgeo|FsckThatCli: is there anything you can't turn into an inane sexual reference? <-- no, but I invoke rule 34 on inane sexual references
00:39:42 <alise> Vorpal: Once upon a time, "Your mom said that in bed last night" and "That's what SHE said!" did it.
00:40:37 <oerjan> <Vorpal> oerjan, strange kick reason <-- i didn't provide any
00:40:44 <quintopia> i was talking to a friend about netbooks, and the following innocuous line emerged:
00:40:47 <quintopia> 12. "ah well, yes, if you insist on 10 inches and lots of hard di[redacted]k, it will be $300, but that's only a hundred dollars more!" - quintopia
00:40:57 <quintopia> that's surgical redaction in action
00:42:36 <alise> BOTTELISP WILL BE SO SUPRA
00:42:40 <alise> IT WILL BE SUPRAINDENTENDT
00:42:48 <alise> OF THE POLEESE FORCE OF LISP
00:43:26 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:43:59 <quintopia> hey, since i'm still new and all, can i get some brief bios maybe? some introduction type thingies?
00:44:14 <alise> 2010-09-17 21:30:52 (95.5 KB/s) - `logs.db' saved [248597504/248597504]
00:44:16 <alise> so happy i could query for a duck
00:44:34 <alise> quintopia: i can give you two bios for the price of one!
00:44:46 <alise> but Vorpal's would basically be offensive, so
00:44:49 <alise> quintopia: nothing at all!
00:44:57 <quintopia> well, just tell me who you are then
00:45:23 <alise> hi, i'm 15 and despite the nick -- which originated as a joke and ... stuck -- i'm male. until recently i was in a mental institution
00:45:30 <alise> I guess that isn't the greatest bio ever.
00:45:48 <quintopia> also you're american, as you have previously indicated
00:45:58 <oerjan> Vorpal: oh from various messages in my windows it appears that irssi interpreted /mode -b *!*alise@91.104.246.* #esoteric as first an unban, and then _all_ of #esoteric as a list of flags
00:46:19 <alise> ooh i remember when otpbot ran rule 110 in the topic
00:46:22 <alise> thems were fun times
00:46:52 <quintopia> i never did finish playing through that
00:47:13 <quintopia> got to the place where it was like WTF HOW IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE TO MOVE THROUGH THIS LEVEL and gave up
00:47:27 <quintopia> actually, i never finished playing through the main manufactoria levels either :/
00:47:55 <coppro> the one where you have to shoot yourself over the glass?
00:48:43 <quintopia> coppro: no the one with like a bajillion rooms all with sliding doors that are seemingly only openable from the inside...level 45 or something like that
00:48:56 <alise> hey oerjan turned 40
00:49:15 <alise> quintopia: oh yeah and i've been here since 2007/2008.
00:49:26 <alise> thus completing the worst bio in history
00:50:05 * oerjan always _thought_ norwegian was an ethnicity
00:51:37 <quintopia> oerjan: well, i hear there are Lapps in there too, rarely
00:51:40 <alise> oerjan #esoterics for a living
00:51:52 <alise> if you ever get bored, try and understand one of his papers
00:52:00 <alise> you'll instantly feel a strong urge to do something else
00:52:23 <alise> we're all academic, it's just that most of us are too crazy to get published!
00:54:44 <quintopia> yes but he's 40. it takes some...uh...stamina to be an academic that long
00:55:03 <oerjan> if there are lapps among my ancestors they're probably quite a bit back
00:56:04 <alise> i'm not sure he academises any more.
00:56:16 <alise> he's also not talking about it
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00:58:36 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: automatically?
00:58:38 <alise> uhh, i'm not sure.
00:58:39 <quintopia> this shall be the new official comic of #esoteric: http://i.imgur.com/jacoj.jpg
00:58:47 <alise> if you write the USB right
00:58:50 <alise> (using ubuntu's application)
00:59:01 <alise> quintopia: oh come on we never actually program
00:59:08 <alise> even if we do we never have users
00:59:30 <quintopia> with that attitude, of course you have no users!
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00:59:49 <quintopia> how do you personally define "esoteric programming language"?
01:00:35 <alise> let me guess, you're going to go on about how our research can pave the way for new practical languages of wonderfulness!
01:00:37 <oerjan> THIS GUY ASKS TOO MANY QUESTIONS
01:00:38 <alise> of course it could
01:00:48 <alise> we just don't give a shit about things /that/ boring :)
01:01:16 <oerjan> quintopia: uselessness is _nearly_ part of the definition
01:02:48 * quintopia had no intention of going anywhere with that
01:03:35 <quintopia> but there are some practical languages that i, for one reason or another, consider esoteric.
01:03:54 -!- quintopia has changed nick to You.
01:03:55 <oerjan> quintopia: i recall BancStar was (at a time anyhow) disqualified from the wiki for actually being seriously intended
01:04:00 -!- You has changed nick to quintopia.
01:04:08 <oerjan> despite being utterly crazy, or so
01:04:19 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> There's someone I know on another IRC network called You
01:04:27 <oerjan> or was that something else
01:04:32 <quintopia> i just wanted to see if it were registered here
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01:08:08 <oerjan> quintopia: hm in fact it's still not on esolang, but wikipedia has it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BANCStar_programming_language
01:09:01 <quintopia> oerjan: i'm very familiar with it. i remember when it was on esolang.
01:09:10 <quintopia> also, i recall a handful of tdwtf articles
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01:12:47 <quintopia> things that suck more than usual: today's xkcd
01:14:47 <alise> Things that suck: xkcd
01:15:38 <quintopia> but today it has reached a new level of suckitude
01:15:59 <quintopia> before, when it sucked there'd still be a few fanboys that liked it and stuff
01:16:07 <quintopia> today, even the fans agree it sucks
01:16:29 <alise> yeah xkcd used to be wonderful
01:16:47 <alise> and from comic 400 to 500, it rapidly descended into utter shite
01:16:57 <alise> after showing inklings of imminent collapse beforehand
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01:19:16 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
01:19:20 <alise> I told you just to use Ubuntu from the start.
01:19:22 -!- EOF has joined.
01:19:29 <alise> It should be fine from a USB stick.
01:19:41 <EOF> knoppix is :/
01:19:47 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: I'd burn an Ubuntu CD, then use that CD's USB creator.
01:19:52 <alise> This lets you set it to preserve ~ on shutdown.
01:20:11 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Burning a CD is a bit of a tricky proposition right now
01:20:12 <EOF> he is a more experienced linux user
01:21:10 <EOF> are you on windows?
01:21:47 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Managed to burn Parted Magic from my ancient computer that I'd rather leave off
01:21:58 -!- augur has joined.
01:22:12 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Screwed up a few disks trying to get the saving to DVD right, eventually gave up
01:22:46 <EOF> you need to burn the image to the disk, don't just copy the file
01:22:59 <EOF> can you open up a terminal?
01:23:14 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> But when downloading the thing, I need a place to put it
01:23:27 <EOF> put it somewhere on your hard drive
01:24:16 <EOF> so, you are running for a usb or a cd?
01:24:32 <EOF> do you have a flash drive?
01:24:35 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Puppy Linux puts itself in RAM, so I can burn more CDs
01:24:46 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Not right now, but there might be one in this house, according to my dad
01:24:49 <quintopia> i haven't even gotten halfway through the latest subnormality and it's already obvious the punchline is going to involve the waitress being the spy. try harder dude.
01:25:01 <pikhq> quintopia: EEEEH wrong.
01:25:31 <EOF> so the puppy image is COMPLETELY in ram?
01:25:51 <pikhq> EOF: Yes, it loads into RAM from CD and then unmounts the CD.
01:26:02 <EOF> how much ram do you have
01:26:10 <EOF> and how much are you using?
01:26:37 <pikhq> Below that, Puppy won't load into RAM.
01:26:54 <pikhq> Puppy, BTW, is *fucking tiny*.
01:26:58 <EOF> but how much does he *have*
01:27:37 <EOF> i'm asking Sgeo|FsckPuppy
01:28:19 <EOF> how big is your iso?
01:28:24 <zzo38> I don't like the \outer command in TeX
01:31:02 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> I have a bunch of blank DVDs, but old comp doesn't have a DVD drive
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01:31:11 <EOF> do you live in canada, if so i can mail an ubuntu install disk to you :)
01:31:38 * Sgeo|FsckPuppy is too impatient for that. And I'm somewhere vaguely south of you
01:32:15 <EOF> then just request a free one from canonical
01:33:32 <EOF> and they're getting cheaper than 2000 bucks
01:34:35 <EOF> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227515
01:34:42 <EOF> i bit over 2k
01:35:15 <EOF> but it's on sale
01:35:23 <EOF> 350 bucks off
01:35:26 <alise> <EOF> he is a more experienced linux user
01:35:37 <alise> apart from irritating
01:36:48 <alise> a bit more specification would be appreciated
01:36:49 <EOF> i'm a canadian(eww a canadian, i know right :) ) with knowlege of unix-like systems and a passion for hardware and sexual superiority
01:37:01 <alise> you wouldn't happen to know Quadr*scence, would you?
01:37:39 <alise> only whenever #esoteric turns into #mention-my-sexual-awesomeness-at-every-single-turn, it's usually his fault. or someone he dragged along.
01:37:44 <EOF> Quadrescence ?
01:37:50 <alise> great; now you've pinged him.
01:38:21 <EOF> you mentioned him
01:38:57 <EOF> he's got no ip or host name :/
01:39:18 <alise> it's called a cloak
01:39:19 <EOF> he may well be a bot :)
01:39:29 <EOF> you don;t know
01:39:36 <alise> so is there any actual reason you mentioned your passion for sexual superiority?
01:39:56 <EOF> tell me if you think
01:40:09 <EOF> this guy's pic is kinda cool
01:40:10 <EOF> http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs353.snc4/41669_790499184_93_n.jpg
01:40:23 <alise> i have no idea who you are or what you're trying to achieve, but shut the fuck up.
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01:50:53 * EOF is somewhat knowledgeable about GNU/Linux
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01:52:53 <EOF> i was talking in a channel about constructed languages, and somebody mentioned the esotericity of Esperanto
01:53:34 <EOF> and i first tried esolang (common short for for esoteric language)
01:55:15 <zzo38> PicoC seems to be broken, a bit
01:55:29 <zzo38> "typedef" always causes a parse error
01:55:56 -!- augur has joined.
01:56:04 <zzo38> If you define something "void zzz(void)" it expects an argument and then says it can't set void
01:56:16 <zzo38> Statements like "0;" fail
01:57:05 <EOF> zzz is the name of the function
01:57:55 <EOF> and void is both an argument and the value(or lack therof) returned...
01:58:29 <EOF> change void in the parentheses to voidarg
01:58:40 <EOF> and replace calls to the arg
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01:59:27 <EOF> why did you mention this tho?
01:59:47 <zzo38> EOF: Because the GNU C compiler doesn't work like that
02:00:14 <zzo38> Changing "void" to "voidarg" says bad type declaration
02:01:24 <EOF> or just call it with an argument
02:01:46 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
02:01:53 <EOF> void zzz(viodarg)
02:02:28 <EOF> is your code open?
02:02:33 <zzo38> And calling it with an argument makes the error message that it cannot set void
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02:03:04 <EOF> then don't use void as an arg
02:04:00 <EOF> void zzz(){grab values from variables and constants in the main function
02:04:25 <EOF> email me your code at hamiltonham9@hotmail.com
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02:04:58 <SgeoN1> I think Puppy is playing some kind of sick joke on me
02:05:14 <EOF> it will do that
02:05:29 <SgeoN1> Unless Firefox with some 10.x old version of Flash really is that crashtastic
02:06:01 <SgeoN1> Geoffrey, knoppix or Ubuntu?
02:07:02 <EOF> or fedora if you want a user friendly distro with good repos
02:07:12 <SgeoN1> I'm not looking for a permanent installation
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02:07:30 <EOF> fedora on a usb,
02:07:35 <SgeoN1> Just a LiveCD that's usable for now
02:07:54 <EOF> why can't you do a perm install
02:08:04 <EOF> dual booting is a blast
02:08:58 <zzo38> EOF: I don't have email
02:09:38 <EOF> how do people with no hdd, and no email; make it into irc
02:09:58 <pikhq> Believe it or not, neither is necessary for TCP/IP access.
02:10:51 <SgeoN1> It's not my fault I don't have an HD!
02:12:44 <SgeoN1> Actually, I do have an HD, it's just removed from my computer. Shall I put it back in?
02:13:32 <zzo38> I need to find a good C interpreter which I can embed into CTANGLE. It needs to be small, and it must be a proper subset of C (so that any codes here can also be compiled with a C compiler), but it doesn't need to support comments, because CTANGLE strips out comments.
02:14:20 <EOF> zzo38: http://typewith.me/TXT4kmXm2O < put your code in here so i can see what you were doing
02:14:23 <zzo38> Also, the #define command should be supported.
02:14:53 <SgeoN1> Was about to suggest a nop
02:15:09 <SgeoN1> Now it just needs to do simple term rewriting?
02:15:26 <zzo38> EOF: You do not even understand at all what I am doing.
02:15:34 <zzo38> Do you know about Enhanced CWEB?
02:15:49 <EOF> i'm half asleep
02:15:54 <EOF> i can't infer
02:16:11 <pikhq> It's even a library.
02:16:26 <pikhq> Hooray, Fabrice Bellard.
02:16:35 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB is a program I have written, based on CWEB, used for literate programming. It can combine C codes and TeX codes. There are other features, as well.
02:16:47 <EOF> it can interperet the linux kernel
02:17:24 <pikhq> EOF: Compile quickly.
02:17:51 <zzo38> It also needs to be able to compile partially and call those functions before compiling the rest of the program
02:18:07 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, TinyCC can compile a single function and get you a pointer to it.
02:18:23 <pikhq> It's really an amazing piece of work.
02:18:35 <EOF> http://bellard.org/tcc/tccboot.html
02:18:50 <zzo38> I can't use TinyCCb because it is compiler, it compiles for x86. I need it to be platform-independent interpreter (no compile)
02:19:06 <EOF> compile the linux kernel in 15 seconds on a p4
02:19:08 <pikhq> Oh, you want it platform-independent.
02:19:15 <pikhq> Your best bet is Clang.
02:19:35 <EOF> LLVM based
02:19:49 <pikhq> Yeah, not platform *independent*, but ported to a lot more things.
02:20:12 <zzo38> No! It needs to be platform independent. It needs to interpret only, not compile.
02:20:20 <pikhq> Nobody's written one.
02:20:27 <SgeoN1> So, a c like language?
02:20:42 <pikhq> It wouldn't be hard, it's just not been done.
02:20:45 <EOF> sudo apt-get install clang
02:20:57 <zzo38> The only preprocessor command that is needed is #define I don't need #if or #include
02:21:05 <zzo38> And I don't need support for comments either
02:21:10 <EOF> http://clang.llvm.org/
02:21:22 <SgeoN1> Can llvm be interpreted?
02:21:26 <pikhq> zzo38: Basically, you don't need the preprocessing pass outside of macros.
02:21:36 <pikhq> SgeoN1: Hypothetically, yes.
02:21:39 <zzo38> SgeoN1: Yes, a C like language, and it has to be a proper subset of C and the syntax like C
02:21:45 <EOF> llvm on tinycc running CLang
02:22:08 <pikhq> zzo38: I suggest you write a C interpreter. Sorry.
02:22:34 <SgeoN1> Can it be full C? Any reason for the "proper"?
02:23:32 -!- augur has joined.
02:23:46 <zzo38> SgeoN1: It can be full C, but I don't need it. Programs generated by CTANGLE are compiled using a normal C compiler anyways, I only need the interpreter so that you can write functions for generative programming in your program.
02:24:37 <SgeoN1> So don't call it proper subset?
02:25:12 <zzo38> SgeoN1: What I mean is not all features of C are needed
02:25:36 <SgeoN1> Subset, without proper, allows for that
02:25:57 <zzo38> SgeoN1: Yes, sorry, I just made a mistake
02:26:10 <zzo38> However, I still don't need it to support full C
02:26:16 <EOF> you want an interpereter that can, in real time, run your code like a script
02:26:45 <alise> <EOF> and i first tried esolang (common short for for esoteric language) ;; we're not idiots.
02:27:03 <zzo38> EOF: Yes, like that
02:27:17 <alise> <EOF> email me your code at hamiltonham9@hotmail.com ;; we know how to use pastebins
02:28:28 <zzo38> O, and it should be able to call a function that was parsed before, even during the parsing of another function.
02:30:33 <zzo38> My idea is that if CTANGLE finds a identifier "abcdef" and the function "abcdef$" exists (defined by interpreting), then it will call abcdef$() to generate the C codes for that (which does not necessarily have to be interpreted; the generated code might be used only by the C compiler).
02:30:50 <pikhq> EOF: No offense or anything, but are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect?
02:31:43 <zzo38> (And by favorite pastebin is sprunge)
02:31:53 <EOF> ^^men and out of place
02:32:19 <pikhq> Confusing use of ^ there, ^D.
02:36:05 <EOF> two ^s mean two lines up
02:36:26 <alise> I'm still not sure what "men" is supposed to mean.
02:38:10 <EOF> the humor of that was that it's directly proving a link to the Dunning-Kruger effect, and so was that.
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02:39:58 <alise> Please specify "that" further.
02:40:00 <SgeoN1> I think being here tempers that effect in me
02:40:17 <SgeoN1> Firefox crashed again for absolutely no reason
02:40:37 <SgeoN1> Maybe Chrome will be better
02:41:45 <SgeoN1> Although I still think I'm better than the idiots who surround me irl
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02:51:16 <SgeoN1> Maybe IceWM will be less crasshy
02:53:03 <zzo38> It looks like with TinyCC I might be able to make it generate codes for the virtual machine
02:53:18 <zzo38> If I can do that, then I can use it.
02:55:52 <SgeoN1> I just sent an apology to someone for being an asshole when I was in 7th grade
03:01:56 <zzo38> I will try libtcc.
03:02:14 <alise> SgeoN1: Seriously?
03:03:56 <SgeoN1> How do I open a tab on this thing
03:04:13 <quintopia> are there not many languages that are entirely event-driven? the wiki doesn't seem to have an event-driven category...
03:04:23 -!- augur has joined.
03:04:25 <alise> quintopia: there are one or two, I think
03:04:30 <alise> and the idea entertained me for a while -- and still does
03:04:38 <alise> i believe there is one on the wiki. good luck finding it
03:05:35 <zzo38> I use Ubuntu at Free Geek. It is not the best but it is a full Linux distribution and it works. I use the command-line mostly.
03:06:57 <alise> Whatever it is: no.
03:07:12 <alise> quintopia: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=event&fulltext=Search
03:07:16 <alise> our search does work quite well
03:07:21 <SgeoN1> It doesn't do them in a nice way, but...
03:07:26 <alise> of course there's beta-Juliet and Portia and 2iota, yes
03:07:32 <alise> but i recall another too
03:08:06 <quintopia> the rest on that search appear related to ABCDXYZ
03:08:23 <alise> Hmm, I swear I remember another. Oh well.
03:08:35 <alise> quintopia: you forgot beta-Juliet and Portia (2iota's predecessors, although utter failures)
03:10:10 <quintopia> alise: i didn't have to mention them since you already had
03:10:11 * alise gets inspired by Biota
03:10:15 <alise> quintopia: right :P
03:10:31 <alise> It'd be nice to have a language like Biota, except instead of having a boring data counter, the program is expected to evolve itself.
03:10:43 <alise> Like Befunge if the self-modification was integral, not an tacked-on thing.
03:11:01 <quintopia> what's the name of the original OOL again? starts with a P?
03:11:02 <alise> The results of a conditional, say, moves a code path to the right where the IP will hit it, or something.
03:11:17 <alise> Programs restructure themselves gradually with algorithms, turning calculations into "output" data...
03:11:20 <alise> quintopia: object oriented, you mean?
03:12:06 <quintopia> the one that was entirely picture based
03:12:12 <quintopia> came before actual digital computers
03:12:13 <alise> quintopia: Uhh... Modula-2, successor to Pascal?
03:12:28 <alise> Are you not thinking of the lambda calculus or something?
03:12:36 <alise> I know of no object-oriented language predating computers.
03:12:53 <quintopia> well, i should have thought you would, since this is esoteric
03:13:06 <quintopia> this should be the one place on earth that remembers
03:13:15 <alise> We're not omnipotent, and it's a distinct possibility that you're hallucinating.
03:13:27 <alise> That rings a bell...
03:13:49 <alise> quintopia: wait -- what's your native tongue?
03:14:02 <alise> second result for *kalkul on google is the pi calculus
03:14:27 <alise> that doesn't predate computers though, afaik
03:14:57 * SgeoN1 will probably be eating dinner at the pizza place tomorrow. Or maybe the day after
03:16:28 <alise> yes that's what came to mind
03:16:33 <alise> but i couldn't place it
03:16:37 <alise> it's not OO though
03:17:55 <quintopia> you're right that it doesn't predate digital computers
03:18:01 <quintopia> apparently the Z3 used binary logic
03:18:14 <quintopia> but it definitely predates transistors...
03:20:02 <alise> quintopia: you're job is to make my language i just thought about
03:20:55 <quintopia> alise: working on it. will have it uploaded in a minute.
03:22:25 <alise> quintopia: do you like roguelikes?
03:25:40 <alise> Mathnerd314: err, what?
03:25:51 <alise> i've been visiting #haskell since... early 2008
03:26:30 <alise> you may want to grep "ehird"
03:27:20 <zzo38> How exactly do I use libtcc anyways? Will it do what I need it to do?
03:28:17 <alise> well, it compiles... not interprets
03:28:28 * pikhq is amazed at how many accents the UK has
03:28:42 <alise> hmm, revenantphx wasn't in #haskell the last time
03:28:50 <alise> he seems terribly irritating
03:29:23 <pikhq> There's even accents retaining the T-V distinction.
03:29:23 <alise> he's acting like he's crossed the desert of enlightenment and found the truth and is now lecturing hopeless peasants :P
03:29:28 <alise> pikhq: T-V distinction?
03:29:38 <zzo38> alise: It looks like I can write a code generator, if I can write one that compiles to a virtual machine code in memory, I could do that. Can it work with partially compiled programs?
03:29:48 <pikhq> alise: In English, the difference between "thou" and "you".
03:29:57 <pikhq> Specifically, the formality bit.
03:30:14 <pikhq> It's a feature in most languages in Europe (sprachbund, not from PIE)
03:30:20 <zzo38> What is the difference between "thou" and "you"?
03:30:29 <alise> <revenantphx> Oh, this has nothing to do with Haskell.
03:30:30 <alise> <alise> precisely.
03:30:41 <alise> pikhq: Err, nobody says "thou", so I'm assuming that's what you mean.
03:30:42 <pikhq> zzo38: Thou is the second person singular informal. You is the second person singular formal and the second person plural.
03:30:51 <Gregor> zzo38: Degree of politeness.
03:30:52 <pikhq> They still use "thou".
03:31:12 <alise> pikhq: *not what you mean.
03:31:15 <alise> pikhq: Surely not.
03:31:21 <Gregor> Thou shall not use the word "shall". It is outdated.
03:31:23 <pikhq> alise: A handful of accents do.
03:31:26 <alise> I know people and they do not do this.
03:31:30 <alise> pikhq: Maybe as "tha" or something.
03:31:47 <pikhq> It's Oop North, so that's probably what it comes out as. :P
03:31:51 <zzo38> pikhq: O, so "you" is supposed to be plural.
03:32:07 <alise> pikhq: Wow just look at your #haskell tab's scrollback for a bit and admire how irritatingly loud revenantphx is.
03:32:22 <alise> At least when I dominate all the discussion here I'm not /too/ idiotic.
03:32:26 <pikhq> Before the development of the T-V formality thing (it started in French), it was just a singular vs. plural distinction.
03:32:43 <pikhq> In... Pretty much all Indo-European languages.
03:32:44 <alise> ah, the french. experts at making things stupider.
03:34:06 <pikhq> And of course, now in *most* accents "thou" is some sort of hyper-formal.
03:34:10 <alise> <revenantphx> kmc: I have homework for AP CS in hava actually
03:34:12 <pikhq> Because that's how you refer to god!
03:34:16 <alise> AP -- isn't that high school in the US?
03:34:41 <alise> i'm pretty sure this guy is an irritating rubyist who found out about haskell on, i dunno, twitter, p=.99
03:34:43 <pikhq> alise: It's a high school class that can become college credit upon passing the relevant AP test.
03:35:02 <pikhq> Typically for the more menial college courses.
03:35:12 <alise> pikhq: right. so the veteran of the desert of enlightenment, two-week master of haskell, dominator of all #haskell discussion is complaining about his high-school homework
03:35:20 <pikhq> US education being what it is, high schools treat them as the holy grail of intelligence.
03:35:26 <alise> RIP #haskell 1997 or something -- 2010
03:35:28 <pikhq> "ZOMG YOU TOOK AP CALCULUS!"
03:36:09 <alise> <revenantphx> He wont even let me align variable assignments D:
03:36:16 <alise> MY CODE IS SO UGLY WITHOUT A BUNCH OF POINTLESS WHITESPACE IN IT
03:36:22 <alise> WHY IS MY TEENAGED LIFE SO IMPOSSIBLE ;__;
03:36:51 <pikhq> It amazes me that the common perception of a lot of college classes is that they're impossible.
03:37:05 <pikhq> For instance: calculus is considered by many (idiots) the hardest math class in existence.
03:37:31 * alise wonders if there's a shorter way to get the sign of a number in Python than x/abs(x)...
03:37:40 <alise> ideally i want to map, say, negative to 0 and positive to 1...
03:37:43 <pikhq> Yes, the calculus of derivatives and integrals.
03:39:12 <alise> bsmntbombdood: very nice
03:39:18 <alise> has 0 == 0, but oh well, what can you do
03:39:33 <alise> bsmntbombdood: (I'm golfing and trying to get myself an (-inf,-inf) to (inf,inf) list.)
03:39:40 <alise> maybe i'll just write a class for it
03:39:53 <alise> but that's *so* *much* *code*!
03:40:22 <alise> wait i can just use a hash table
03:40:49 <alise> bsmntbombdood: (inf,inf) being a coordinate tuple there, or what do you mean?
03:41:10 <alise> no, coordinates here
03:41:22 <alise> i just want an infinite 2d plane centred at (0,0)
03:41:26 <alise> but again, a dictionary works
03:46:07 <zzo38> I can also try PicoC but it says very small, but various things don't work
03:50:29 <zzo38> PicoC seems to work badly. After a variable "x" is declared, then using "#define x 4" results in "'oUB' is already defined"
03:50:29 <alise> for Y in range(y,y+80):
03:50:29 <alise> for X in range(x,x+24):
03:50:29 <alise> s.addch(Y-y,X-y,w.get((Y-40,X-12),46))
03:50:32 <alise> now why doesn't this work...
03:51:46 <SgeoN1> Leaving the house, bleh
03:52:23 <zzo38> If 'y' is undefined, a code such as "void qq() { y++; }" will not result in an error until you try to call "qq();"
03:54:07 <zzo38> I also got the message "macro is not a function - can't call". But it is a macro that takes parameters.
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03:56:40 <zzo38> I think PicoC is broken.
03:58:51 <bsmntbombdood> If 'y' is undefined, a code such as "void qq() { y++; }" will not result in an error until you try to call "qq();"
03:58:57 <zzo38> Look at the defects in PicoC listed here: http://code.google.com/p/picoc/issues/list
03:59:44 <quintopia> aha! i knew there were people here who actually programmed for a living!
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03:59:57 <zzo38> I suppose it is OK that the qq() function given there causes an error only when you call it, but it isn't OK that "#define x 4" results in "'oUB' is already defined"
03:59:59 <pikhq> Should I have an evil plan to save the world? I think so.
04:00:00 <alise> quintopia: err, who?
04:00:07 <alise> yeah, bsmntbombdood never comes here any more
04:00:10 <zzo38> Also \ at the end of a macro line is not accepted
04:00:15 <alise> i think cpressey is the only regular who develops professionally
04:00:31 <alise> and, really, it's his channel, we just live in it :)
04:01:13 <pikhq> quintopia: I used to.
04:01:25 <pikhq> I'm currently unemployed. And a college student besides.
04:02:40 <alise> "PicoC is a very small C interpreter for scripting. It was originally written for scripting a UAV's on-board flight system and it's also very suitable for other robotic, embedded and non-embedded applications too.
04:02:42 <alise> The core C source code is around 4000 lines of code. It's not intended to be a complete implementation of ISO C but it has all the essentials. When compiled it only takes a few k of code space and is also very sparing of data space. This means it can work well in small embedded devices. It's also a fun example of how to create a very small language implementation while still keeping the code readable."
04:02:51 <alise> zzo38: i think it's not aiming for absolute standards-compliance
04:02:53 <alise> pikhq: i thought you sysadminned
04:03:11 <pikhq> alise: And developed. Mostly patches to make programs comply.
04:03:44 <alise> if you can call that programming :D
04:03:50 <zzo38> alise: That's OK it is doesn't do it absolutely, but it has to work good, instead of working badly
04:04:00 <pikhq> I spent a month doing that to a program once. It counts!
04:04:13 <alise> Why would this break curses addch()?!
04:04:45 <alise> wtf with +79 it yields no error
04:04:49 <alise> what's up with that.
04:05:24 <zzo38> Isn't there any better program than this???
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04:05:38 <alise> zzo38: it's not bad, it's just not designed for your purpose
04:05:44 <alise> you could probably buy one of the proper c interpreters
04:05:54 <alise> http://www.softintegration.com/
04:06:32 <zzo38> I can't do with buying one, it has to be free software
04:07:09 <zzo38> I will try to use PicoC anyways, though, to see if it might work
04:07:20 <zzo38> Maybe I can modify it a bit, if necessary
04:09:54 <zzo38> Ch is not even platform-independent
04:13:06 <zzo38> PicoC also does not seem to supprt typedef (although I do not get an error about 'typedef' being undefined)
04:13:08 <alise> http://sites.google.com/site/redcodenl/patent-infringement
04:13:33 <alise> "You wrote some code using an FFT to identify music files. We also do that, and make money off it. Therefore, stop it. It's illegal or something!"
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04:16:53 <alise> pikhq: I challenge you to a COMPETITION
04:17:32 <augur> someone posted a picture of some random boy claiming it was you
04:17:58 <alise> If you didn't notice that was the same person whose trolling you were encouraging the day before.
04:18:14 <augur> i dont really pay attention to this channel so :D
04:18:27 <augur> but i will say, the boy in the pic he posted was a total hotty
04:18:37 <augur> and if you had become that boy i would've been all "zomg wat"
04:18:44 <alise> So I've avoided rape.
04:18:50 <alise> That counts as a good day in my opinion.
04:18:59 <Gregor> It would only start as rape.
04:19:10 <zzo38> Perhaps I can just fix PicoC.
04:19:19 <augur> alise: well, it wouldn't've been rape
04:19:20 <alise> YES PICOC LET US TALK ABOUT PICOC.
04:19:47 <augur> something like that :D
04:20:27 <Gregor> Really, if you want a "C interpreter", you'd probably be best to munge something around a C compiler.
04:21:06 <augur> nah, you'd be better off having a simulated machine that you compile to!
04:21:17 <alise> Gregor: No, it has to be totally portable, apparently.
04:21:50 <Gregor> alise: How totally portable? Windows? OS X? Hardware is easy in this case, software is not.
04:22:08 <alise> Gregor: Anything that runs C I'd assume.
04:22:28 <Gregor> Right, so I suppose munging something around 20 C compilers is no fun :P
04:22:40 <alise> Although I'm pretty sure zzo38's code flagrantly violates the C standards in more ways than one.
04:24:12 <Gregor> All C code flagrantly violates C standards :P
04:25:03 <alise> Gregor: Rather, all "C" "code" is not actually C code :P
04:26:17 <Gregor> picoc: lex.c:500: LexTokenise: Assertion `ReserveSpace >= MemUsed' failed.
04:27:17 <alise> #include <stdlib.h>
04:27:17 <alise> #include <stdio.h>
04:27:17 <alise> int main(void) { return puts("Hello, world!") == EOF ? EXIT_FAILURE : EXIT_SUCCESS; }
04:27:23 <alise> I'm pretty sure that's bona-fide C code.
04:27:34 <Gregor> In what way is that not bona-fide C code?
04:27:44 <alise> Well, it's the first piece ever written!
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04:29:08 <alise> "Given a a series of integers print φ(n) for each of them."
04:29:24 <alise> Next anagolf problem: "Implement a computer algebra system!"
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04:30:06 <alise> wd@>5&p:".;._2(1!:1)3
04:30:09 <alise> 21 characters of J including IO
04:30:12 <alise> Like everything else
04:33:35 <alise> NOTE TO SELF: install J tomorrow.
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05:05:30 <zzo38> PicoC does not even support the "goto" command.
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05:36:36 <quintopia> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/1mpr0mp2
06:03:07 <Ilari> quintopia: "CP0, CP1, etc.: The C prefix indicates that the output pin should be driven low. Again, this is only legal for" (cuts off)
06:07:06 <Ilari> quintopia: To me, that doesn't look too practical...
06:11:40 <SgeoN1> How many languages are there that if you learn, then walk away from, become unreadable?
06:29:04 <quintopia> Ilari: it seems obvious to me that it is Turing-complete. what would be the shortest way to prove it?
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06:50:40 <Ilari> quintopia: Implement algorithm that takes subset of brainfuck (+, -, <, >, [ and ]) and outputs 1mpr0mp2 program that halts if and only if the original brainfuck program halts? And then note that there is obiviously nothing in the language that's super-turing... That's at least one way.
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09:24:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me, or does it look like a Dinosaur Comics/Doctor McNinja crossover is headed our way?
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10:42:26 <quintopia> have added a new category suggestion to the talk page. quickly approve it so its absence will stop annoying me
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11:42:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, doing some quick benchmarking on complex queries (such as the ? ratio ones) it seems that postgres is faster than sqlite
11:45:57 <Vorpal> hm not doing case insensitive for nick. Could affect it
11:50:48 <Vorpal> hm also on queries not using the nick column at all
11:52:19 <Vorpal> select type,count(*) as cnt from logs group by type order by cnt desc; takes 1519 ms in postgres according to itself. Not sure how to get such exact value in sqlite, but wall clock based timing indicates about 13 seconds there
11:54:15 <Vorpal> hm it seems based on explain that sqlite creates a temporary table? And postgres does a seq scan on the table then a hash aggregate
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12:49:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, eh found a bug with your script: it doesn't handle modes properly at all!
12:50:31 <Vorpal> as in, it doesn't capture the actual mode change
12:50:37 <Vorpal> just that a mode change was done
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12:57:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw to speed up full import: create indexes after importing data. This is faster for both sqlite and postgres
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13:28:10 <Vorpal> sqlite> select (select count(*) from logs where type = 3) - (select count(*) from logs where type in (4,5,6));
13:28:22 <Vorpal> that is joins - (parts + quits + kicks)
13:28:34 <Vorpal> the value ought to be equal to number of people in here
13:29:05 <Vorpal> that is around 45 or so (since the last log fetched is not from this very instant, but about an hour ago or such)
13:30:23 <Vorpal> hm clog losing connection probably resulted in some mismatch
13:32:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and: initial data import into sqlite is faster than for postgressql, but queries that aren't able to use indexes directly are significantly faster in postgres.
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13:33:45 <Vorpal> using the COPY construct would probably be faster for importing into postgres, but that would require parsing the logs and storing them into a stream first. Would mean a major rewrite of the program.
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14:26:01 <alise> 01:29:03 <fizzie> I miss the time I was a "real" student; those get a 50 % discount.
14:26:02 <alise> http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd072709s.gif
14:26:22 <alise> 02:42:26 <quintopia> have added a new category suggestion to the talk page. quickly approve it so its absence will stop annoying me
14:26:33 <alise> Graue is touchy about categories.
14:27:21 <alise> 04:41:09 <fizzie> In the raw clog format, around 117 MB.
14:27:24 <alise> only 50 MB not long ago :)
14:27:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, current versions with fixed parsing of mode changes and putting new nick for nick changes into target column. To make full import fast: move the db.commit() call to top level and add the indexes (apart from primary keys) after the data has been imported: http://sprunge.us/TEhQ http://sprunge.us/QMgO
14:30:48 <alise> "The computer needs to restart to finish installing updates. Please save your work before continuing."
14:30:55 <alise> for kernel headers?! oh wait, no, kernel update
14:31:59 <Vorpal> alise, if so yeah the last update would have worked fine with ksplice I think
14:32:07 <Vorpal> checking the changelog
14:32:18 <alise> yeah i don't really care enough though, i'll just not reboot
14:32:32 <alise> Vorpal: btw, i now have strong empirical evidence that this glossy screen is /far/ superior to other glossy screens
14:32:39 <alise> I saw someone with a Dell Latitude laptop
14:32:47 <Vorpal> alise, what brand is your laptop
14:32:49 <alise> and it was more than twice as glossy as this one
14:33:18 <alise> It's glossy but reflections are very, very subtle and if you focus on the screen, completely invisible most of the time.
14:33:37 <alise> Of course, in daylight you can see them slightly, but then again, it's usable in sunlight, unlike matte displays.
14:34:00 <alise> Actually the part that accounts for almost all perceived reflections is the plastic border around the screen; that's pretty reflective.
14:34:17 <alise> Basically I always forgot I was using a glossy display when I first got this.
14:34:23 <alise> The Dell screen was /awful/.
14:34:30 * Vorpal wonders if "select count(*) as cnt,length(body) as len from logs where type = 0 group by len order by cnt desc;" will work
14:34:50 <Vorpal> hm numbers seems plausible
14:35:20 <Vorpal> length = 3 is most common at 54081 lines of that length
14:35:38 <Vorpal> second place is length 2 at 48851
14:35:59 <Vorpal> there is one message of length 0??
14:36:47 <alise> Vorpal: is there a way to limit 1 for each group?
14:36:56 <alise> that is, only show the first one for the first count thingy?
14:37:12 <Vorpal> alise, you mean, one "example" message of each length?
14:37:45 <Vorpal> eh, what is the 7 here?
14:37:57 <alise> Urgh, I hate SQL so much.
14:37:58 <Vorpal> oh wait, you are using sqlite
14:38:01 <alise> Vorpal: I just ran your query.
14:38:21 <Vorpal> alise, right, I was doing it in postgre, so I got confused by the different output format
14:38:26 <alise> Also, when I'm doing a query that isn't selecting for me, just returning results that involve me, or you, how can I group things?
14:38:33 <alise> That is, "treat X, Y and Z as the same for grouping".
14:39:30 <Vorpal> alise, you mean nicks? well (nick like 'alise%' or nick like 'ehird%' or nick like 'tusho%') is what I used so far. Then separate queries for me and you
14:39:39 <Vorpal> which is indeed cumbersome
14:39:46 <Vorpal> alise, maybe create a few with them merged :D
14:40:00 <alise> sqlite> select count(*), nick from logs where type = 0 group by nick order by count(*) desc limit 10;
14:40:07 <alise> how can I merge the ehird, alise, tusho groups into one?
14:40:20 <alise> i'm not very good at sql, mostly because i hate it
14:40:48 <Vorpal> alise, I can't think of a way. Maybe some string function to replace all ehird and so on with alise and then select on that sub query?
14:41:02 <alise> See now in Prolog... :)
14:41:14 <Vorpal> alise, yeah right, so do that then
14:41:19 <alise> So basically I replace the logs table with a subquery?
14:41:22 <alise> Also, yeah, yeah, I'm on it...
14:41:41 <Vorpal> alise, anyway those 7 things there, they were "7 times have we seen a string of length <whatever"
14:41:43 <alise> Okay, so X == (select * from X). (I've never sub-frommed before.)
14:41:51 <Vorpal> alise, so merging those seems a bit strange
14:42:13 <alise> so most of our messages are 3 characters long xDD
14:42:23 <Vorpal> alise, would have been done already if you hadn't been buggering me about SQL the past few minutes :P
14:44:20 <alise> sqlite> select count(*), nickx from (select *, replace(nick,"ehird","alise") as nickx from logs) where type = 0 group by nickx order by count(*) desc limit 10;
14:44:22 <alise> not sure this works :(
14:44:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to Behold.
14:44:59 <alise> is there a replace() that operates on "foo%", I wonder...
14:45:01 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
14:46:09 * alise just replaces ehird`/alise`/ehirdiphone/aliseiphone/iEhird
14:46:26 <alise> Vorpal: you've never used a nick other than AnMaster or Vorpal for any significant length of time, right?
14:47:49 <alise> sqlite> select count(*), nickx from (select *, replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(nick,"iEhird","alise"),"aliseiphone","alise"),"ehirdiphone","alise"),"alise`","alise"),"ehird`","alise"),"AnMaster","Vorpal"),"tusho","alise"),"ehird","alise") as nickx from logs) where type = 0 group by nickx order by count(*) desc limit 10;
14:47:53 <alise> Vorpal: Ha ha ha observe my dominance.
14:48:01 <alise> lament is on that list now, haha
14:48:20 <fizzie> Re creating indices only after a large import, that's a very common speedup trick; didn't think about it yesterday, though.
14:48:36 <alise> fizzie: Is there any reason other than disk space not just to add an index on fucking everything?#
14:48:55 <alise> (I did scarf -> ais523.)
14:50:41 <Vorpal> alise, I used AnMaster|ipv6 and so on
14:50:45 <fizzie> Incidentally, is there some particular reason why you do that with a subquery and not just select count(*), replace(...) as nickx from logs where type = 0 group by nickx order by count(*) desc limit 10?
14:50:48 <Vorpal> alise, but far less than you
14:50:54 <alise> "Moreover, some widely used database systems include ideas and algorithms developed for Datalog. For example, the SQL:1999 standard includes recursive queries, and the Magic Sets algorithm (initially developed for the faster evaluation of Datalog queries) is implemented in IBM's DB2."
14:51:04 <Vorpal> so we are talking about 2000 messages instead of 20000 or such
14:51:11 <alise> fizzie: Um... because Vorpal was stupid and told me to use a subquery.
14:51:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you know how to get log y scale in gnuplot?
14:51:16 <alise> Vorpal: So basically I WIN.
14:51:20 -!- EOF has joined.
14:51:29 <alise> sqlite> select sum(length(body)) as s, nickx from (select *, replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(nick,"scarf","ais523"),"iEhird","alise"),"aliseiphone","alise"),"ehirdiphone","alise"),"alise`","alise"),"ehird`","alise"),"AnMaster","Vorpal"),"tusho","alise"),"ehird","alise") as nickx from logs) where type = 0 group by nickx order by s desc limit 10;
14:51:35 <alise> That's pretty impressive.
14:51:37 <Vorpal> alise, I said I couldn't think of any other way than subquery
14:51:47 <Vorpal> alise, I'm no SQL expert either
14:52:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can simply do "using 1:(log($2))" to get the proper log-scale shape, but then the ticks and labels and such will have those raw log numbers.
14:52:24 <EOF> internal string array databases FTW
14:52:36 <Vorpal> EOF, for logs of this channel?
14:53:01 <fizzie> "set logscale y" (or "set logscale y N" for base N) if you want a "proper" log-scaled plot.
14:54:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about hiding legend?
14:55:20 <fizzie> Or maybe "unset key". Or maybe both work.
14:55:24 <alise> Error: no such function: mean
14:55:27 <alise> Well...fuck...you?
14:55:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, set key off worked
14:55:41 <Vorpal> now to figure out sizing the thing
14:55:43 <alise> How wonderfully imprecise.
14:55:49 <EOF> could you guys give me an indication of WTF you are talking about?
14:55:50 <fizzie> alise: It's also just sum/count, anyway.
14:55:54 <Vorpal> <alise> Error: no such function: mean <alise> Well...fuck...you? <-- how mean
14:55:58 <fizzie> alise: There's a soundex approximate-matching function in sqlite, you could use that for nick-folding.
14:56:00 <alise> fizzie: aka mean :P
14:56:18 <Vorpal> EOF, we are generating useless statistics on the logs for this channel (from 2004 to now)
14:56:30 <alise> Whoa, sorting by average message length changes EVERYTHING.
14:56:34 <EOF> are the logs open data?
14:56:45 <alise> 198.666666666667|Mathematica
14:56:46 <alise> EOF: no extremely secret
14:56:48 <alise> nobody can have them
14:56:50 <EOF> what about me?
14:56:51 <alise> Hey, that Mathematica was my bot.
14:56:57 <Vorpal> EOF, did you check topic?
14:56:58 <alise> you have to pay for them
14:57:21 <alise> 05:23:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I looked at Gregor's hg repo for logs. why is there a fizzie directory in https://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/index.cgi/file/0ad952ce6894 ?
14:57:26 <alise> don't check that out without asking him first
14:57:32 <alise> it fucks with his server
14:57:37 <alise> due to the traffic
14:57:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: I can't quite recall what "fizzief" was for; I usually append a letter that's somehow related to the client or computer or something, but I don't know what "f" might stand for.
14:58:17 <EOF> i'm going to merge them all
14:58:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, also egobot somehow managed a line of length = 0
14:58:38 <alise> Vorpal: perhaps a control char
14:58:40 <alise> that the client stripped
14:58:42 <alise> but not the server
14:59:00 <Vorpal> did you see any empty line from me ther?
14:59:06 <EOF> ./printall > fulllog
14:59:09 <alise> not \0, presumably
14:59:15 <alise> but perhaps \1 or \255 or something like that
14:59:18 <Vorpal> alise, ah, was a single color-code start
14:59:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: Did you filter for type=0? There's one zero-length "act" there, at least.
14:59:25 <alise> how can you not think of that?
14:59:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I filtered
14:59:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, since length(NULL) seems useless
14:59:43 <alise> select * from logs order by random() limit 10; is fun
14:59:47 <alise> 315078|2007-07-22 13:36:26|blahbot`|||0|Reloaded.
14:59:49 <alise> my reloadable bot!
14:59:52 <EOF> but i would have to cd into the workign directory :?
14:59:59 <alise> EOF: cat logs/* > full
15:00:06 <EOF> and i is MAJOR NUVB
15:00:08 <alise> writing a script is utterly pointless
15:00:18 <alise> you said you were experienced with unix-like systems and gnu/linux especially
15:00:29 <fizzie> Aw, [the soundex() function] "is only available if the SQLITE_SOUNDEX compile-time option is used when SQLite is built", and Ubuntu's sqlite doesn't do that. :(
15:00:35 <EOF> i don't use cat so much now
15:00:43 <alise> EOF: Why the hell not...?
15:00:54 <alise> ./07.07.17:05:42:48 <blahbot`> I am also from ~do, but with the new command;command form.
15:00:58 <alise> oh yeah, the gaping security hole feature
15:02:54 <Vorpal> alise, here is the plot in question: http://sprunge.us/XGbZ
15:03:32 <alise> it's not like it's encoded perfect mathematical curves there either
15:04:21 <Vorpal> alise, here anyway: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/msglen.svg
15:04:28 -!- yiyus_ has joined.
15:04:40 <Vorpal> alise, and indeed it doesn't
15:04:53 <alise> Hmm, how best to render that plot? I know, I'll set the font to Comic Sans.
15:04:56 <alise> Ahh, thank god it's in svg.
15:05:01 <alise> Now it's much more readable.
15:06:21 <Vorpal> alise, anyway reuploaded it to http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/msglen.svg with less square size
15:06:26 <Vorpal> to make it easier to read
15:06:49 <alise> ./07.07.19:10:39:55 <blahbot`> ^y^x$^x^y$^x^y^x$^x^yx$xx$^x$^x^yx$xx^x$^x^yx$xx$$^x^y^x$^x^yx$xx$^x$^x^yx$xx^x$^x^yx$xx$^x^y^x$^x^yx$xx$^x$^x^yx$xx^x$^x^yx$xx
15:08:30 <Vorpal> that was what gave the one char thingy
15:08:36 * Vorpal waits for EgoBot to react
15:08:42 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
15:08:55 <Vorpal> hm maybe it it doesn't pass the ircd any more
15:10:10 <alise> 14:34:45 <RodgerTheGreat> how many people here pronounce "char" as "care" and how many pronounce it as in "charred"?
15:10:13 <alise> "car", actually...
15:11:17 <Vorpal> EOF, so who are you? Someone relatively new here or someone who just changed nick?
15:11:54 <EOF> someone who learned of this channel yesterday
15:11:55 <alise> Vorpal: btw I /msg'd you
15:12:09 <EOF> did you now
15:12:17 <alise> Vorpal: i did a while back
15:12:20 <alise> not sure if you saw
15:12:33 <Vorpal> alise, err, I think I had a bogus setting in my client
15:12:38 <alise> Vorpal: I can resend.
15:15:55 <alise> Vorpal: any ideas on how to count occurences of a substring in a string in sql?
15:16:01 <alise> maybe sqlite is lacking here
15:16:06 <alise> but it implements the standard...
15:16:42 <fizzie> That doesn't sound like something there would be a function for.
15:16:55 <Vorpal> alise, you mean like find all messages containing a substring? Or like total number of times that substring appears (counting duplicates in a given message as several, instead of one)
15:17:24 <EOF> just grep your dir :)
15:17:25 <fizzie> I assumed the latter; the first is just like/glob.
15:17:25 <Vorpal> alise, the former is easy, the latter I have no clue how to do
15:17:37 <alise> Vorpal: "abbbbacca" on "a" -> 3
15:17:41 <Vorpal> yeah the first is body like '%foo%'
15:17:52 <alise> sqlite> select count(*) as n, replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(nick,"scarf","ais523"),"iEhird","alise"),"aliseiphone","alise"),"ehirdiphone","alise"),"alise`","alise"),"ehird`","alise"),"AnMaster","Vorpal"),"tusho","alise"),"ehird","alise") as nickx from logs where type = 0 and body like "%fuck%" group by nickx order by n desc limit 10;
15:17:56 <alise> not an accurate measure, but
15:18:15 <alise> i'm pretty sure i'll come on top for fucking in the end. pun not intended yet no effort was taken to avoid.
15:18:19 <Vorpal> alise, you could perhaps output the result lines instead and then grep that?
15:18:45 <Vorpal> alise, I'm pretty sure that sql fans would claim doing this in sql would be against some normalisation principle or such :P
15:18:46 <alise> Vorpal: i could just grep :P
15:18:49 <fizzie> Explode all possible substrings of each line into another table, then it's just a count there.
15:18:57 <alise> fizzie: I'll get right on it!
15:19:14 <fizzie> Very many, is my guess.
15:19:14 <alise> 369|instead of ">", "I fucked your mother last night"|lament
15:19:21 <alise> selecting text there too produces a wonderful flavour-chart of fucks
15:19:27 <alise> 302|but I /think/ that's a working dtou script in Brainfuck|ais523
15:19:35 <alise> hmm, does like have a word boundary thing?
15:19:44 <Vorpal> alise, personally I would create a view for that replace madness
15:19:52 <alise> body like "fuck%" or body like "% fuck%"
15:20:01 <alise> Vorpal: i'm too lazy :D
15:20:08 <alise> yay now ais523 is no longer on it
15:20:11 <alise> that filthy non-curser
15:20:31 <alise> Vorpal: grepping the output means i might as well just grep my hardcopy logs
15:20:37 <alise> but that doesn't order it for me
15:21:03 <Vorpal> alise, well depends on exactly what you want to do. I mean, you aren't supposed to write the entire client program in SQL generally :P
15:21:33 <Vorpal> alise, from postgres I get:
15:21:35 <Vorpal> ERROR: column "scarf" does not exist
15:21:36 <Vorpal> LINE 1: ...lace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(nick,"scarf","a...
15:21:55 <Vorpal> alise, sure this is completely standard?
15:22:05 <Vorpal> I think I'm in the wrong db
15:22:17 <alise> maybe nesting so much isn't :)
15:22:24 <alise> Vorpal: and pah, with LISPABASE it's easy
15:22:38 <alise> you write Lisp-datalog queries seamlessly integrated with Lisp!
15:22:48 <Vorpal> alise, link to this wonderful thing
15:23:40 <fizzie> alise: Incidentally, PostgreSQL can do regexp_replace() (and regexp_split_to_table, and then you can get the table length for count) to text.
15:23:46 <alise> sorry, ~/mind is chmodded solely to me
15:23:58 <alise> fizzie: POSTGRES POSTGRES POSTGRES
15:24:01 <alise> I'M TIRED OF HEARING ABOUT POSTGRES
15:24:14 <Vorpal> alise, actually it is postgres doing it right
15:24:24 <alise> NOTHING'S RIIIIGHT
15:24:24 <Vorpal> alise, it implements " as the sql standard says I think
15:24:31 <Vorpal> you want ' around strings
15:24:45 <Vorpal> alise, " quotes a column or table in case it has the name of a key word
15:25:01 -!- Flonk has joined.
15:25:57 <alise> ./07.07.31:14:46:15 <blahbot`> Errno::ENOENT: (eval):1:in `initialize': No such
15:25:57 <alise> file or directory - BIG GAPING HELLO.JPG-STYLE SECURITY HOLE
15:32:09 -!- olsner has joined.
15:32:28 <alise> Why is it that the best applications demand reinventing everything first?
15:33:41 <alise> I need someone to poke with questions about a Prolog database in Lisp. :|
15:33:47 <Vorpal> alise, http://sprunge.us/bfQW
15:34:15 <alise> so anyway who wins
15:34:22 <Vorpal> alise, was it "tusho"?
15:34:30 <alise> it doesn't do the useful thing
15:34:34 <alise> i.e. count individual fucks
15:34:55 <alise> Vorpal: does postgres have an eval("1+1+1+1") => 4?
15:35:07 <alise> if so, regex replace every non-fuck with nothing, then regex replace every fuck with 1+
15:35:20 <olsner> alise: SICP includes a prolog-in-scheme, doesn't it?
15:35:24 <Vorpal> alise, no function with the name eval to do that at least
15:35:37 <alise> olsner: it's more like datalog here though, with some sort of efficient algorithm (magic sets?)
15:35:41 <alise> and database-oriented
15:35:50 <alise> Vorpal: use pl/sql :P
15:36:01 <Vorpal> alise, yeah but I would have to learn pl/sql first :P
15:36:07 <alise> Vorpal: then you can just use regex to make afuckbcfuck -> xx for the two fucks
15:36:09 <alise> then run a procedure on it
15:36:17 <alise> length(replace fuck with "x" and remove others)
15:36:23 <Vorpal> something like that yeah
15:36:30 <alise> can Postgres handle \0 in a string?
15:36:34 <alise> if so, since \0 can't be said on IRC,
15:36:45 <fizzie> alise: With postgres, you just need to regex-split all lines with "fuck" into an array, then take array-length minus 1 as the fuck-count.
15:36:49 <Vorpal> alise, I assume it can, but maybe the client can't
15:37:01 <olsner> alise: oh, ok... datalog seems to allow doing much more complicated and clever stuff than prolog, apparently
15:37:14 <alise> Vorpal: length(regex_replace(regex_replace(body,'fuck','\0'), '\0*', ''))
15:37:25 <alise> olsner: yes, since it's sub-TC
15:37:36 <alise> olsner: but basically i want to ask questions about the lisp-facing api
15:38:08 <Vorpal> alise, anyway you easily win in number of times saying "fuck" it seems. With (body ilike 'fuck%' or body ilike ' fuck%') you get 551 lines? Seems low hm
15:38:41 <Vorpal> ilike for case insensitive
15:38:55 <alise> ARC NEWS: arc is still on version 3, exactly the same people still care
15:39:04 <alise> Vorpal: er, i got much more than that.
15:39:18 <alise> <alise> sqlite> select count(*) as n, replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(nick,"scarf","ais523"),"iEhird","alise"),"aliseiphone","alise"),"ehirdiphone","alise"),"alise`","alise"),"ehird`","alise"),"AnMaster","Vorpal"),"tusho","alise"),"ehird","alise") as nickx from logs where type = 0 and body like "%fuck%" group by nickx order by n desc limit 10;
15:39:18 <alise> <alise> 3806|alise
15:39:24 <alise> not much worse with your modification i'd wager
15:39:33 -!- zzo38 has joined.
15:39:33 <alise> Vorpal: can you try that regexp thing for me?
15:39:37 <alise> i dunno if \0 will escape properly
15:39:58 <Vorpal> alise, with (body ilike 'fuck%' or body ilike '% fuck%') you get 3092 lines of having said that work
15:40:13 <alise> Vorpal: what went wrong the first time, then?
15:40:27 <Vorpal> alise, ' fuck%' != '% fuck%'
15:40:48 <Vorpal> alise, simply a typo in other words
15:40:56 <Vorpal> alise, anyway what regex?
15:41:14 <fizzie> Vorpal, alise: here's a fuck-counter in postgres:
15:41:15 <fizzie> fis=> select length(regexp_replace(regexp_replace('foofuck, bar fuck baz, fuck fuck and so on', 'fuck', E'\n', 'g'), E'[^\n]', '', 'g'));
15:41:25 <fizzie> Works for all strings with no embedded newlines, which is all IRC messages.
15:41:49 <fizzie> (Replaces all fucks with newlines, then all non-newline characters with nothing, then counts the string length.)
15:42:12 <fizzie> Possibly \0 would work too.
15:42:40 <fizzie> It needs the E'...' string for strings-with-escapes, though.
15:42:47 <alise> fizzie: Yeah, that's basically what I said.
15:43:00 <alise> You could do that in sqlite with an unholy nesting of 254 replaces.
15:43:05 <Vorpal> ERROR: column "logs.body" must appear in the GROUP BY clause or be used in an aggregate function
15:43:05 <Vorpal> LINE 5: length(regexp_replace(regexp_replace(body, 'fuck', E'...
15:43:10 <alise> And maybe embedded control characters.
15:43:30 <alise> did you have body like fuck anywhere?
15:43:33 <alise> remove that obviously
15:43:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Obviously sum() that if it's a group-by thing.
15:43:58 <alise> sum(length(...)) as fucks, order by fucks...
15:45:06 <Vorpal> hm first filtering on body ought to help
15:45:14 <Vorpal> hm that seems very wrong
15:45:24 <Vorpal> you have fewer "fuck" than number of lines with it
15:46:26 <Vorpal> alise, 3521 fucks, and 3806 lines with that in it. Something is off here
15:46:54 <alise> try replacing \bfuck\b
15:46:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does the E in front of those strings do?
15:46:59 <alise> otherwise "brainfuck" might weird it
15:47:01 <alise> Vorpal: escaped string
15:47:50 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I set it to do all such substrings, without regard to where in the string
15:48:07 <alise> which is the issue
15:48:13 <Vorpal> and it still ends up as fewer occurrences of the word than number of lines
15:48:14 <alise> *because of "brainfuck"
15:48:28 <Vorpal> alise, yes but the line thing I compared to would include that too
15:50:10 <Vorpal> actually 4098 lines vs. 3521 occurrences of the word
15:50:14 <Vorpal> something is definitely off
15:50:21 <alise> [[At Lulu's suggestion I have changed the rating to "teen" so it is now possible to search for and buy Prime Intellect when you are logged in at the default settings. I'm not sure whether it's the zombie sex or the incest scene which is most teen-oriented, but people have complained about the rating so if the publisher doesn't think it needs the shrink wrap, who am I to argue?]] --Roger Williams
15:50:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: like is case-insensitive, while the regex only counts completely lowercase fucks; that's one possible reason.
15:50:49 <alise> yeah put 'i' as the last argument?
15:50:53 <alise> and make sure to use \bfuck\b
15:51:05 <fizzie> Yeah, changing the 'g' to 'gi' would help.
15:51:34 <Vorpal> alise, is \b really posix regexp?
15:51:50 <Vorpal> alise, and this thing is posix extended according to docs
15:52:28 <zzo38> bind '"\eOR": " \C-ucd */\e*\n"'
15:52:52 <Vorpal> alise, you end up at 1336 then, probably due to excluding stuff like "fucking"
15:53:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's actually posix-extended with some non-POSIX additions, but I don't think \b is one of them. \y is "matches at the beginning or end of word", though you'd probably need \\y in a E'...'.
15:53:20 * Vorpal tries (^| )fuck(|ing|er|ed)( |$)
15:53:26 <alise> Vorpal: fuck(er|ed|wit|ing)?
15:53:34 <Vorpal> alise, will do in a sec
15:53:43 <Vorpal> with the one I just said: 2663
15:53:47 <alise> (mother|)fuck(|er|ed|wit|ing)
15:54:09 <alise> i guess by the carlin measuring post motherfucker != fucker
15:54:15 <Vorpal> alise, the last one: 2674
15:54:31 <Vorpal> soupdragon at 806 as number 2
15:54:41 <alise> i wonder what pushed pikhq off
15:54:47 <alise> pikhq fucks a lot. uhh... we need new terminology
15:54:48 <Vorpal> then followed by oklopol at 419, and pikhq at 408
15:54:54 <alise> Vorpal: elide (mother|)
15:54:56 <Vorpal> then me at 175 and augur at 120
15:55:23 <Vorpal> alise, right. lets see: same ordering in the top 6
15:55:48 <zzo38> At FreeGeek, I have an account there now. I managed to make a shell function to select the next subdirectory of the parent directory of the current directory, it uses a pipeline with 'pwd' and 'cat' and 'cd' and 'ls' and 'sed'
15:55:51 <Vorpal> I forgot what it was for the remaining of the top 10 compared to last query, and I'm running this in a GUI tool for easier editing
15:56:09 <alise> "Can you feel yourself tripping ALL the balls??" "W-" "We're leaving no ball left untripped here, Dromiceiomimus." --Dinosaur Comics
15:56:59 -!- EOF has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:58:56 <alise> 06:34:19 <fizzie> Because there's one instance where there's just "* EgoBot" in the logfile.
15:59:04 <alise> ah, i see how that works
15:59:14 <alise> length 0, isn't it?
15:59:34 -!- abcde has joined.
15:59:52 <alise> The latter was ^AACTION ^A.
16:00:03 <abcde> More 0-length messages!
16:00:04 -!- abcde has changed nick to Guest92520.
16:00:10 <alise> I assume they appear as type=0.
16:00:11 -!- Guest92520 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:01:11 <Vorpal> makes the whole thing a lot less horrible-looking
16:01:20 <Vorpal> moving all the replacing to the view
16:02:13 <Vorpal> the definition for the view is http://sprunge.us/BTdI (note: I didn't enter it like that, that is what I get back when asking postgres for the sql code for it!)
16:05:29 <Vorpal> of course that view is useless for nick changes
16:05:33 <Vorpal> but lets do some kick stats on it
16:07:08 <Vorpal> lament kicked most people, followed by oerjan and fizzie
16:07:29 <Vorpal> most often kicked was alise followed by dixon (who was that?)
16:07:43 <alise> dixon is Quadr*scence's trolling buddy
16:07:43 <Vorpal> alise was kicked 6 times
16:07:45 <alise> from the Day-Long Troll
16:08:18 <Vorpal> wait, dixon, asiebot, oklopol, Quadr* and bsmnt_bot share second place
16:08:30 <Vorpal> compared to your 6 times alise
16:08:36 <Vorpal> alise, I guess you are just hated :P
16:08:46 <alise> most of those would be one of
16:08:58 <alise> - when i asked to be kicked until i was kicked
16:09:03 <alise> (I have no idea why)
16:09:08 <alise> - accidental floods
16:09:19 <alise> i don't think i've been kicked for actually being an awful person before
16:09:27 <alise> select the kick messages
16:10:08 <Vorpal> alise, you were kicked twice by lament, once by fizzie and three times by oerjan
16:10:22 <alise> Vorpal: select the messages if you can
16:10:37 <alise> two of the oerjan kicks were from yesterday if you've updated since then
16:10:40 <zzo38> What TeX format should I use for binary numbers in Enhanced CWEB?
16:10:41 <Vorpal> alise, well, I would need to select on timestamps around those kicks or such
16:10:49 <Vorpal> or do you mean kick message?
16:10:51 <alise> (when i tried to paste the unary '.', and then again when I forgot to /flushq before rejoining)
16:10:52 <alise> Vorpal: the latter, yes
16:11:42 <Vorpal> alise, http://sprunge.us/dDJd
16:11:52 <zzo38> alise: I know I could use any, but I meant one format that can be used specific for binary numbers, like how it formats octal and hexadecimal numbers in their special format, then what format should be used for binary numbers (0b00110110011)?
16:12:09 <alise> the two lament ones i asked for, i think
16:12:12 <alise> i'll just look i up
16:12:18 <alise> Vorpal: select tusho and ehird too :P
16:12:22 <Vorpal> alise, you have the UTC timestamp
16:12:30 <Vorpal> alise, that is logs_na, the nick normalised view
16:12:35 <alise> i didn't use alise in 2008 :P
16:12:47 <Vorpal> alise, why would I create a view and not use it?
16:13:23 <Vorpal> alise, btw I found that sqlite is way faster when doing a full import of all the data, but way slower to do complex queries that have to scan the table (as opposed to using indexes)
16:13:38 <Vorpal> I think almost everything on logs_na require full table scan
16:13:38 <alise> 15:14:46 <Phenax> im too fucking badass to get kickbanned motherfuckas!
16:13:52 <alise> 15:15:34 <tusho> 15:24:49 <Phenax> one tyme my profesor did dat 2 and i was like holy shat i got like 4 routersa that are MIPS
16:13:52 <alise> 15:15:34 <tusho> 15:30:20 <Phenax> augur: im lookin fo sometin i can drink durin class i dun rly wanna pop any pills durin class
16:13:52 <alise> 15:15:35 <tusho> 15:30:26 <Phenax> campus securiy canna b liek waddat
16:13:52 <alise> 15:15:35 <tusho> 15:31:15 <Phenax> BUT I ALSO WANT TO FUCKIHN BURP IN MY PROFESSORS FACE AND IT NEEDS TO SMELL LIEK ENERGY
16:13:52 <Vorpal> not sure if postgres supports materialised views
16:13:54 <alise> 15:15:35 <tusho> 15:34:30 <Phenax> randall is betta dan spinelli olol
16:14:48 <alise> Vorpal: lines from that day
16:14:52 <alise> it appears this Phenax person was a little insane
16:15:01 <alise> some talk about a kickban of me, though, so it might have been the day before
16:15:54 <Vorpal> alise, hm the dates are normalised to UTC
16:16:03 <Vorpal> you need to correct for that, could cross log dates
16:16:31 <Vorpal> alise, well the thing is, if you use the db you don't need to
16:16:43 <Vorpal> you can just apply a timezone to the stuff
16:16:50 <Vorpal> the issue is when going back to the clog text log files
16:17:00 <alise> 15:47:19 <AnMaster> "The GNU Compiler Collection. Includes C/C++, java compilers, pie+ssp extensions, Haj Ten Brugge runtime bounds checking" is about max lenght
16:17:03 <alise> what a hopeless description!
16:17:08 <Vorpal> alise, this is easier in postgres since the timestamps are of the type timestamp
16:17:13 <Vorpal> rather than just textual data
16:17:18 <alise> "Compilers. Includes some languages, flargle bop doogit, and asiudha4w98y."
16:17:35 <Vorpal> <alise> 15:47:19 <AnMaster> "The GNU Compiler Collection. Includes C/C++, java compilers, pie+ssp extensions, Haj Ten Brugge runtime bounds checking" is about max lenght <-- max length of what?
16:17:50 <alise> portage description field
16:18:01 <Vorpal> what with the pie+ssp stuff
16:18:58 <alise> 15:49:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +o lament
16:18:58 <alise> 15:49:16 <lament> tusho: what's a good hostmask?
16:18:58 <alise> 15:49:22 <tusho> lament: for whom?
16:18:58 <alise> 15:49:38 <lament> *!*@67.15.72.46 ?
16:19:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: sqlite can do time maths with the textual data (that's why I put it in there in that format); it can even assume UTC and convert it to local times for displaying. What it doesn't do is explicit timezone support, so you can't convert it into an arbitrary timezone within sqlite. (Again something you're supposed to do in the client app side.)
16:19:06 <alise> this is in 08.06.18 leading up to the kick
16:19:22 <alise> yeah then me and oklopol ask to be kickbanned
16:19:45 <alise> 15:51:26 <lament> okay
16:19:45 <alise> 15:51:30 --- mode: lament set +b *!*n=tusho@91.105.124.*
16:19:45 <alise> 15:51:31 --- quit: Slereah_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:19:45 <alise> 15:51:34 --- kick: tusho was kicked by lament (lament)
16:19:45 <alise> 15:51:37 <oklopol> :D
16:19:46 <alise> 15:51:46 <oklopol> was fun knowing him
16:19:48 <alise> 15:52:19 <augur> o.o;
16:19:50 <alise> 15:53:12 <oklopol> lament: i don't think he wanted a permanent ban :P
16:19:52 <alise> 15:53:43 <lament> well, we'll never know
16:19:54 <alise> 15:53:49 <lament> :D
16:19:56 <alise> Immediately after:
16:19:58 <alise> 15:54:16 <AnMaster> lament, please please unban it
16:20:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, postgres can do timezones, oh and it's timestamps take less space than the textual data of sqlite
16:20:24 <alise> gahahaha Phenax still isn't kicked by this point
16:20:33 <Vorpal> alise, how stupid I was, asking him to unban you
16:20:40 <alise> Unban it, you mean.
16:20:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sure, that was just a rationale for why they're in the format they are, and that sqlite can in fact do stuff with them.
16:20:56 <Vorpal> alise, I think you had previously claimed to be genderless or something silly like that
16:20:59 <Vorpal> a few days before or such
16:21:16 <alise> since augur immediately corrected you
16:21:20 <alise> 15:55:41 --- join: someguy (n=ehird@91.105.124.212) joined #esoteric
16:21:20 <alise> 15:55:53 <someguy> you guys just banned my brother?
16:21:20 <alise> 15:55:58 <someguy> fucktards
16:21:20 <alise> 15:56:10 <oklopol> someguy: big/little brother?
16:21:20 <alise> 15:56:19 <someguy> oklopol: i'm like 23, I lose count
16:21:34 <alise> so hard to keep track of your other personality's age
16:21:44 <alise> 15:56:28 <AnMaster> lament, you *could* have kickbanned Phenax
16:21:44 <alise> 15:56:43 <lament> AnMaster: that actually seems like a good idea.
16:22:14 <alise> Vorpal: 15:56:52 <AnMaster> http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/ 15:56:54 <AnMaster> HAHAHAHA 15:56:59 <AnMaster> at that language
16:22:29 <alise> well okay it's a nice esolang but not HAHAHAHA nice
16:22:41 <alise> 15:57:15 <oklopol> lament: yeah motherfucker unban him or i'll kill you and your kids
16:22:49 <Vorpal> I think they redesigned the page
16:22:58 <Vorpal> I remember it as way more "low-tech"
16:23:08 <alise> 15:59:06 <someguy> lament: unban my brother would you
16:23:09 <alise> 15:59:14 <lament> someguy: why?
16:23:09 <alise> 15:59:21 <someguy> lament: because it's midnight, duh.
16:23:42 <Vorpal> alise, what was the logic for that
16:24:23 <alise> 16:08:36 <lament> you're all nuts
16:24:23 <alise> 16:08:42 <lament> that's my opinion
16:24:23 <alise> 16:08:51 <oklopol> am i nuts?
16:24:23 <alise> 16:08:55 <AnMaster> lament, "all"? you mean me too?
16:24:23 <alise> 16:09:00 <lament> No. You're all nuts except oklopol.
16:24:24 <alise> 16:09:01 <AnMaster> I'm not nuts!
16:24:26 <alise> 16:09:05 <AnMaster> !!
16:24:49 <alise> 16:09:29 <AnMaster> why would I be nuts?
16:24:49 <alise> 16:09:47 <Slereah> AnMaster : Becayse you're dangling between my legs.
16:24:49 <alise> 16:10:01 <AnMaster> Slereah, sod off
16:25:17 <alise> (Epilogue of this little archaeological dig: <oklopol> lament: TAKE IT OFF!! <lament> um. Not in public.)
16:25:35 <alise> 16:12:19 <lament> tusho: here's a better idea
16:25:35 <alise> 16:12:21 --- mode: lament set +o tusho
16:25:35 <alise> 16:12:25 <tusho> AWESOME
16:25:35 <alise> 16:12:25 <lament> there, now you can ban yourself
16:25:35 <alise> 16:12:31 --- mode: tusho set -o lament
16:25:36 <alise> 16:12:32 --- mode: tusho set +b lament!*@*
16:25:38 <alise> 16:12:38 --- kick: lament was kicked by tusho (tusho)
16:25:41 <alise> Note to everyone: never give me +o. Ever.
16:26:13 <alise> 16:13:17 <oklopol> lament's brother lameguy is gonna be so pissed.
16:26:18 <alise> this log is amazing
16:26:44 <alise> 16:17:01 <AnMaster> FREE UNBAN TO THE PUBLIC
16:26:44 <alise> 16:17:04 --- mode: tusho set +b AnMaster!*@*
16:29:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you see above wrt having to reimport the data again? (Due to not storing what modes changed in mode changes.)
16:30:00 <alise> Vorpal: you were asking for ops so you could spread a new regime of unbannedness to everyone
16:30:13 <alise> so i nipped the anti-communist western lies in the bud
16:30:34 <alise> 16:30:36 <lament> hm
16:30:34 <alise> 16:30:48 <lament> after last time, i think i learned not to trust you with ops
16:30:34 <alise> 16:30:59 --- mode: ChanServ set +o dasf
16:30:34 <alise> 16:31:00 <dasf> lament: i was posessed by demons last time
16:30:34 <alise> 16:31:09 <dasf> damn straight
16:30:38 -!- Flonk_ has joined.
16:31:51 <alise> i don't know why i got opped again, since i was developing a bot to keep giving me ops forever :)
16:32:12 <alise> 16:51:02 --- mode: tusho set +o ihope
16:32:13 <alise> 16:51:07 <ihope> Yay! :-)
16:32:13 <alise> 16:51:12 --- mode: ihope set -oo oppiebot tusho
16:32:17 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
16:32:20 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
16:33:20 -!- jix has joined.
16:33:45 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit).
16:34:05 -!- jix has joined.
16:34:25 <Vorpal> alise, lets see how many times you have been banned hm
16:35:29 <alise> that "Nice try" was a request-ban too
16:35:49 <alise> i asked for it then tried to change it into a coup when +o happened, but oerjan just ruthlessly killed me anyway
16:35:59 <alise> so basically only the second-last kick was for doing something bad (pasting a lot of "1"s)
16:36:06 <alise> the last one was when i forgot to /flushq before rejoining
16:36:13 <Vorpal> select * from logs where body like '+b%' and (body ilike '%ehird%' or body ilike '%tusho%' or body ilike '%alise%') and type = 9;
16:36:39 <Vorpal> 2 by oerjan, one by fizzie and 4 by lament
16:36:52 <Vorpal> alise, that query won't work with the db you downloaded from fizzie yesterday btw
16:37:02 <Vorpal> alise, since it didn't properly parse mode changes
16:38:00 <Vorpal> alise, it isn't possible to actually take over a channel with services, unless someone give you the flags there, or you find out a password or such
16:38:10 <alise> actually, I wonder why people don't use ~/.local/.
16:38:15 <Vorpal> alise, cause a mess with +o yes, but takeover? no
16:38:18 <alise> Vorpal: i just relied on apathy
16:38:28 <alise> and it was for chaos, anyway
16:38:48 <Vorpal> alise, also I doubt oerjan killed you. He isn't an oper
16:38:57 <fizzie> In other news, I made a construction to convert an arbitrary Turing machine into sqlite3 triggers, and ran through it manually a 4-symbol 13-state machine that reverses a string.
16:38:58 <fizzie> Witness the elegance of it: http://p.zem.fi/sqlite-tm.sql
16:39:18 <fizzie> The best way to reverse a string since sliced bread.
16:39:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it work on any string length or just that length?
16:39:56 <alise> Vorpal: killed in the literalmetaphorical sense
16:40:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, could it reverse bcaa for example?
16:40:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Any string, though you'll probably hit the maximum trigger nesting depth (1000) pretty easily.
16:40:48 <alise> fizzie: So SQLite is turing-complete? Awesome!
16:40:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: (Also, the manual SELECT statements at the end only print the first six tape values.)
16:40:58 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: Any string, though you'll probably hit the maximum trigger nesting depth (1000) pretty easily. <alise> fizzie: So SQLite is turing-complete? Awesome! <-- um
16:41:05 <alise> Vorpal: and Python has a nesting stack limit
16:41:10 <alise> doesn't mean the language itself isn't TC
16:41:46 <Vorpal> alise, actually I think it may have documented limits on upper size of db and such
16:41:57 <alise> implementation defects
16:41:58 <Vorpal> of course if that is specced or documented
16:42:52 <alise> Vorpal: why don't people use ~/.local?
16:42:55 <alise> as opposed to ~/lcoal
16:43:06 <alise> Indeed I already have a ~/.local/share...
16:43:12 <fizzie> For some reason it actually worked without recursive_triggers enabled, but only for exactly 16 steps; don't know what's up with that.
16:43:13 <alise> Vorpal: for the unified-tree version of ~/bin etc.
16:43:23 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls .local/share/
16:43:23 <alise> applications desktop-directories gvfs-metadata rhythmbox totem ubuntuone
16:43:23 <alise> desktop-couch Empathy pitivi tomboy Trash webkit
16:43:27 <alise> So there's precedent...
16:43:35 <Vorpal> alise, I use local for ~/local/llvm/2.7/{bin,lib} and so on
16:44:02 <fizzie> (It also takes around six seconds to reverse "abc", so...)
16:44:07 <alise> yes, but that clutters ls ~
16:44:13 <alise> so why do I never see ~/.local?
16:44:16 <alise> apart from... just now
16:44:41 <Vorpal> alise, you never see it because presumably you don't use ls -a
16:45:10 <alise> you totally misinterpreted
16:45:14 <alise> why do you never see people using it
16:45:16 <alise> as opposed to ~/local
16:45:28 <Vorpal> alise, yes I know, I selected the literal interpretation :P
16:45:42 <alise> I hereby reask the question to fizzie.
16:45:58 <Vorpal> alise, and I don't have an answer to why it isn't used
16:46:29 <alise> Vorpal: what i mean is do you have any personal arguments against it
16:46:50 <fizzie> alise: I don't know; for .local in particular, ~/.local/share is already used by a big pile of applications for user-specific stuff. I keep a ls-visible ~/local/ myself too; I guess I somehow wouldn't want to "hide" something like that, but I don't really have a rational argument here.
16:47:27 <alise> It's just that I like to have ~ be non-system stuff, you know?
16:47:48 <pikhq> watasi no hôhầkurahuto ha unakì tè i'hąi tèsu.
16:48:00 <Vorpal> anyway if it isn't split in projects it would be rather irritating to upgrade anything with more than one or two files installed in there
16:48:33 <Vorpal> alise, ~/local is not system stuff, it's your own stuff
16:48:43 <Vorpal> as in, not done with package manager
16:48:56 <alise> it's still linux stuff
16:49:00 <alise> operating system stuff
16:49:17 <alise> i'm sure everyone else can understand the distinction
16:49:19 <Vorpal> nah it's user land, so maybe gnu/linux stuff :P
16:49:36 <Vorpal> and I know what you meant
16:49:47 <alise> pikhq: tèsu tèsu tèsu tèsu tèsu tèsu tèsu tèsu tèsu tèsu tèsu
16:49:57 <pikhq> alise: "My hovercraft is full of eels".
16:50:09 <alise> My hovercraft is full of desu.
16:50:33 <alise> pikhq: Quick, translate "my cousin is a meerkat of strange angles".
16:50:52 <pikhq> That would be 私のホーバークラフトはですで一杯です。 (watashi no hōbākurafuto wa desu de ippai desu)
16:52:11 <alise> Uh oh; for QI to complete, Stephen Fry will have to continue hosting it until he's 72.
16:52:12 <pikhq> 私の従兄弟は変な角のミーアキャットです。
16:52:17 <alise> God I hope the man has dedication.
16:52:26 <alise> pikhq: Is that the meerkat one? I guess not.
16:52:34 <pikhq> "Watashi no itoko ha hen na kado no miiakyatto desu."
16:52:52 * alise tries to find the relevant clip
16:53:15 <alise> It doesn't help that I don't know even what series it's from.
16:53:16 <pikhq> (watasi no itoko ha henn na katò no mîakiȳa'to tèsu.)
16:54:15 <alise> Load quicker, video!
16:56:05 <alise> Vorpal: a hilarious quiz show where all the questions have absolutely obvious and completely wrong answers, and points are usually awarded simply for being "quite interesting".
16:56:24 <alise> Penalties are "awarded", complete with flashing lights and a siren, for giving obvious answers.
16:56:24 <Vorpal> alise, what about the one about about your aunt? Another such common translation trope.
16:56:28 <alise> Hosted by Stephen Fry.
16:56:34 <alise> Usually the majority of scores end in the negatives. Especially Alan Davies'.
16:56:35 <fizzie> Well now, *that* is interesting-looking: behold the cumulative since-2004 activity in logscale: http://zem.fi/~fis/actl.png
16:56:50 <Vorpal> alise, and what is that about "complete"?
16:56:54 <alise> "My cousin is a meerkat of strange angles" is a quote from an episode that also has the hovercraft quote, so I'm trying to find it.
16:57:01 <alise> Vorpal: Each series covers topics starting with one letter.
16:57:05 <alise> Series A, B, C, etc.
16:57:13 <alise> One series per year, ergo...
16:57:28 <alise> We've just started season H.
16:57:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, what's with the stripes
16:57:54 <pikhq> alise: I think you could make it sound completely awesome while describing exactly one bit. "Hosted by Stephen Fry".
16:58:22 <alise> pikhq: Think I've almost found the time...
16:58:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, or the blue parts that don't touch zero
16:58:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Ask gnuplot, not me: all I did was "set logscale y". I guess filledcurves + zeros (-inf in logscale) don't really work so well.
16:59:18 <fizzie> I do like how it's gone outside the graph borders, though.
16:59:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, try setting them to 0.000001 or such and see if it helps
16:59:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would suggest running valgrind on that thing, just in case
17:00:27 <fizzie> No errors from valgrind (despite a few "definitely lost" bytes); trying the non-zeroising now.
17:01:07 <fizzie> It does lines with zeros in them just fine in logscale (puts in vertical lines that go below the chart (but are clipped at the bottom) and then leaves gaps), but filledcurves, no so much.
17:01:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, and the non-zeroizing did not help?
17:01:46 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/actll.png is the same data but "with lines".
17:02:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, I suggest storing the crazy graph rather than overwriting it (maybe renaming it to actl-crazy.png or such
17:02:24 <alise> pikhq: http://vimeo.com/7868344; might as well start watching at 18:00. The actual exchange is at at 21:11, but it's out of context, so.
17:02:27 <alise> pikhq: I did all that work for you!
17:02:35 <alise> All for strangely-angled meerkats.
17:03:32 <pikhq> alise: Vimeo does not let you skip beyond where has been downloaded.
17:03:40 <alise> pikhq: Indeed. I suggest utilising the pause button.
17:03:43 <alise> It buffers quite quickly.
17:03:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, it's about the zeros; http://zem.fi/~fis/actlf.png where zeros were replaced with 0.01 is a normal, boring sort of plot.
17:03:54 <alise> Or, just watch it all. :P
17:03:54 <pikhq> Which is what I'm doing.
17:03:56 <Vorpal> alise, on pikhq's connection?
17:04:03 <alise> Vorpal: he's in a metropolitan area now.
17:04:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: Reasonable broadband.
17:04:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, so what does it show?
17:04:18 <alise> Better broadband than mine, I think.
17:05:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it number of lines but logarithmic?
17:05:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Just the usual cumulative activity; the top shape is number of messages/month centered at that point of time. Since it's logscale, though, you can't really read the relative activity of different people, so the colors are a bit useless.
17:05:33 <pikhq> The point is, though: it doesn't suck.
17:05:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah those down near the bottom get most space
17:06:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, try inventing a plot that you can do as a 3D plot with colours to indicate a forth value on the surface
17:07:03 <Vorpal> need to be reasonably flat to be usable as a static image hm
17:07:19 <Vorpal> if there are dips it would be hard/impossible to see all
17:12:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, can you think of a query to check that timestamp always goes up when the serial does?
17:12:18 <Vorpal> to check for jump backwards
17:13:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can't think of one that does not involve procedural code
17:13:16 <Vorpal> though it would be easy with that
17:13:19 <fizzie> Oh, that should be doable; just a moment.
17:13:49 <fizzie> For the reference, I named my row-id column "idx"; you probably used something else.
17:14:19 * alise starts reading Fine Structure
17:15:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Funny, my db does in fact have some backwards jumps.
17:15:47 <alise> I still can't decide where J should go!
17:15:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: select l1.idx, l1.tstamp, l2.idx, l2.tstamp from logs l1 join logs l2 on l2.idx = l1.idx+1 where l1.tstamp > l2.tstamp limit 10; -- just s/idx/serial/ and maybe remove the limit if you want them all.
17:15:56 <fizzie> 188904|2006-10-29 09:01:03|188905|2006-10-29 08:12:58
17:15:56 <fizzie> 1202220|2009-07-30 22:10:01|1202221|2009-07-30 22:09:40
17:15:59 <fizzie> I have those two, and more.
17:16:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the query
17:16:30 <fizzie> l1 and l2, just arbitrary names.
17:16:44 <fizzie> It just joins the logs table with itself on the condition that left.idx = right.idx+1.
17:17:36 <fizzie> So it only checks all such pairs where serial1 = serial2+1, i.e. two successive rows.
17:17:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, assuming serial has no gaps that works
17:18:12 <fizzie> You could easily cross join logs with logs to check all pairs, but that'd involve N^2 lines in the intermediate join, which might be a bit problematic.
17:19:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, all the months looks like dst ones
17:20:29 <Vorpal> the 2009-07-31 one looks strange
17:20:56 <Vorpal> but most are around oct/nov broder
17:21:07 <fizzie> There's a DST-looking backwards jump in http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.10.17 -- it might be that clog's clock and pytz's rules don't exactly agree on when the DST switch happens.
17:21:43 * Vorpal adds order by l1.serial
17:21:47 <fizzie> pytz ignores the manual "ooh, clock jumped back, handle this properly" logic if it thinks the time specified is not ambiguous, i.e. is outside that one hour when DST switching is legal.
17:22:26 <fizzie> I guess it's even borderline possible that the clog machine's been switched from DST to non-DST manually at approximately the right time.
17:22:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you pass it the previous timestamp so it can compare? or?
17:23:03 <alise> ~/local/j64-602? ~/local/j64? ~/local/j? ~/.local/j64-602? ~/local/j64? ~/local/j? ~/j64-602? ~/j64?
17:23:13 <fizzie> For updatedb.py? Yes, it does notice if the clock jumps backwards in two messages.
17:23:36 <Vorpal> alise, ~/local/j64/602? assuming 64 is not version number
17:23:48 <Vorpal> if part of version number ~/local/j/64-602 might work
17:24:05 <alise> 64 signifies 64-bit
17:24:17 <alise> j32/j64, although on 32-bit i think it's just called j602
17:24:17 <fizzie> (Away for some light entertainment now; back in ... three hours? Maybe four. Something like that.)
17:26:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, a few of those look like they could be ntp step style adjustments
17:30:28 <alise> Vorpal: any other suggestions in light of that new knowledge? :P
17:30:46 <alise> j hasn't updated beyond 602 in... well, ages. i've never known it as anything other than 602
17:33:17 <Vorpal> alise, well, do you plan to install both versions side by side?
17:33:54 <Vorpal> alise, and if no updates are to be expected I guess subdir for different versions wouldn't be needed. So ~/local/j might be fine
17:34:07 <alise> But it's so short!
17:34:15 <Vorpal> alise, isn't that an advantage?
17:34:34 <alise> Well, it just seems so wrong.
17:35:07 <Vorpal> alise, mhm then why not ~/local/languages/array/j/x86-64/602 :P
17:35:16 <alise> I just mean the /j/ part.
17:35:26 <Vorpal> alise, I know, I was joking....
17:36:49 <Vorpal> hm should start importing irc client logs
17:36:57 <Vorpal> same basic idea should work
17:37:45 <Vorpal> since most were logged in client rather than bouncer I think I need to somehow mask non-channel stuff that showed up in the same tab
17:38:36 <Vorpal> also hm, should probably not ignore logging started/ended stuff in clog apart at the start and end of the file
17:38:48 <Vorpal> would make spotting gaps due to malfunction easier
17:41:06 <zzo38> I found CINT could be used for C interpreter, but CINT is not C. CINT is C++ instead.
17:43:39 <zzo38> Although how PicoC works the parser has to wait for input sometimes, maybe I can work around
17:44:52 <Vorpal> fun I need some aug -> 08 mapping
17:46:51 <alise> | ?- assertz((path(X,Y):-edge(X,Y))).
17:46:51 <alise> | ?- assertz((path(X,Y):-edge(X,Z),path(Z,Y))).
17:46:51 <alise> | ?- assertz((edge(a,b))). assertz((edge(b,c))). assertz((edge(b,e))). assertz((edge(c,d))). assertz((edge(d,c))). assertz((edge(d,a))). assertz((edge(d,e))). assertz((edge(e,f))).
17:46:57 <alise> Fatal Error: local stack overflow (size: 8192 Kb, environment variable used: LOCALSZ)
17:48:08 <Vorpal> and year is not on the lines hm
17:48:55 <alise> Even does it with a ! in the middle of that second path clause.
17:52:30 * Vorpal changes his date format for personal logs
17:52:43 <Vorpal> now I still need to parse the old hm
17:53:03 <alise> "Newton OS running on an iPad"
17:53:10 <alise> brb, buying an iPad.
17:53:39 <alise> Oh my god it can even run at the full iPad resolution.
17:55:08 <alise> http://www.panic.com/blog/2010/09/newton-never-dies/
17:57:33 <Vorpal> alise, what does r in front of a python string mean? like r'foo'
18:03:32 -!- trinithis has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:04:56 <Vorpal> alise, python only seems to document {m,n} not {n}, does it not support the latter?
18:05:45 -!- trinithis has joined.
18:06:02 <alise> Vorpal: it probably does.
18:06:49 * Vorpal wonders if "if y is not None" will work....
18:08:08 <Vorpal> alise, wait, does it treat "is not" as one keyword but "not" as another?
18:08:53 <alise> >>> True is (not 1)
18:09:02 <alise> I've only just realised how fucked up that is.
18:11:01 <Vorpal> alise, you mean you never thought about this before?
18:12:03 <Vorpal> alise, it is like SQL. "foo not in (list, of, values)" doing the same thing as "not foo in (list, of, values)"
18:12:10 <Vorpal> and it's fucked up syntax with not
18:12:51 <Vorpal> also python's lack of switch, how did you index a dict now again
18:14:05 <nooga> python is fucked up, period
18:14:34 <Vorpal> nooga, indeed but I already had code for doing almost what I wanted in it
18:14:49 <alise> <Vorpal> also python's lack of switch, how did you index a dict now again
18:14:55 <alise> or x.get(y, default)
18:15:02 <alise> if/elseif/else is generally used though
18:15:05 <alise> rather than a dictionary of functions
18:15:14 <Vorpal> alise, well I need to look up value here
18:15:20 <Vorpal> a mapping from month name to number
18:16:10 <alise> Then yeah, a dictionary.
18:24:15 <fizzie> You could parse the timestamps with strptime, but that's probably not significantly less ugly than regex + manual mappings, and might have some locale-derived breakage.
18:25:59 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
18:26:05 <alise> Vorpal: also needs estoppel -> ehird
18:26:09 <alise> i used that for a while
18:27:33 <alise> sqlite> select count(*) as n, replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(replace(nick,"estoppel","alise"),"alise_","alise"),"scarf","ais523"),"iEhird","alise"),"aliseiphone","alise"),"ehirdiphone","alise"),"alise`","alise"),"ehird`","alise"),"AnMaster","Vorpal"),"tusho","alise"),"ehird","alise") as nickx from logs where type = 0 and body = "fuck" or body = "Fuck" or body="FUCK" or body="fuck!" or body="Fuck!" or body="FU
18:27:33 <alise> CK!" group by nickx order by n desc;
18:27:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, and yes I have locale issues. Plus old ones have year in "begin logging" line but not on each line
18:28:22 <fizzie> I have a pile of logs that don't even have the day/month in timestamps, those are pretty horrible to handle. There's usually a "day changed" line at midnight, but still.
18:28:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, I now switched to an easier to parse format for the future.
18:28:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, I use a global current_year here
18:28:45 <Vorpal> new one has UTC offset at the end
18:29:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, and mine has day but not such day changed line.
18:29:24 <alise> sqlite> select avg(length(body)) from logs;
18:29:27 <alise> In case you were wondering.
18:29:34 <alise> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18:29:38 <alise> That is an average messages for us.
18:29:40 <pikhq> It continues to amaze me how freaking *retarded* voting machines are.
18:29:41 <alise> Seems a bit short, but oh well.
18:29:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, and I rotate monthly, or before that I rotated when the log dir started getting large
18:30:04 <Vorpal> at least all files begin with log started lines
18:30:10 <alise> Longest line evar was 471.
18:30:11 <fizzie> alise: You probably want to filter type=0 there.
18:30:13 <fizzie> sqlite> select avg(length(body)) from logs;
18:30:13 <fizzie> sqlite> select avg(length(body)) from logs where type = 0;
18:30:13 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:30:20 <alise> fizzie: Well, phooey.
18:30:36 <alise> sqlite> select max(length(body)), body from logs where length(body) = max(length(body));
18:30:36 <alise> Error: misuse of aggregate: max()
18:30:37 <fizzie> I think avg ignores nulls, though. But there's still quit messages and the like.
18:30:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm not sure how to handle year wraparound
18:30:58 <Vorpal> guess I could detect dec -> jan
18:31:23 <fizzie> alise: sqlite> select length(body), body from logs where length(body) = (select max(length(body)) from logs);
18:31:24 <fizzie> 471|Colorado Springs: A guy walked into a little corner store with a shot gun and demanded all the cash from the cash drawer. After the cashier put the cash in a bag, the robber saw a bottle of scotch that he wanted behind the counter on the shelf. He told the cashier to put it in the bag as well, but he refused and said "Because I don't believe you are over 21." The robber said he was, but the clerk still refused to give it to him because he didn't believe him
18:32:12 <alise> the only 471-long message, god bless 'im
18:32:52 <Vorpal> month = monthnum[m.group(1)]
18:32:52 <Vorpal> if month < prev_month: # New year
18:32:58 <fizzie> Hey, I have the second-longest message, 467 chars.
18:34:01 <alise> Can someone order-by-closeness-to-average-over-everyone?
18:34:07 <alise> i.e. who has the most average average line length?
18:34:28 <fizzie> Then one EgoBot, then *seven* fizzies, heh. (In the top-10 longest comments.)
18:34:43 <pikhq> fizzie: He definitely should've been carrying a 6-shooter instead.
18:36:52 <alise> The Most Unusual People:
18:36:56 <alise> 454.0|412.358962000533|fizzief
18:36:56 <alise> 325.5|283.858962000533|ElMexicano
18:36:56 <alise> 325.5|283.858962000533|Linuxiano
18:36:56 <alise> 325.0|283.358962000533|Yst
18:37:01 <alise> The latter is the difference between them and the average.
18:37:18 <fizzie> alise: Top-5 averageness with a single statement:
18:37:19 <fizzie> sqlite> select nick, abs(avg(length(body))-(select avg(length(body)) from logs where type=0)) as k from logs where type=0 group by nick order by k asc limit 5;
18:37:19 <fizzie> alise_|0.0118991117972982
18:37:19 <fizzie> Xeanalyth|0.016037999467386
18:37:19 <fizzie> ehercd|0.0219903804197656
18:37:24 <alise> The averagest people:
18:37:29 <alise> 41.6529371112647|0.0118991117972982|alise_
18:37:29 <alise> 41.625|0.016037999467386|Xeanalyth
18:37:29 <alise> 41.6190476190476|0.0219903804197656|ehercd
18:37:29 <alise> 41.5585106382979|0.082527361169511|mib_vvzkm4
18:37:29 <alise> 41.54|0.101037999467387|osaunders
18:37:32 <alise> fizzie: Hey, thief. :|
18:37:49 <fizzie> Doing it first is not thievery. :p
18:38:04 <alise> is ehercd me? I think he is.
18:38:11 <alise> I guess being the top speaker means I contribute a lot to the average.
18:38:22 <fizzie> 433847|2008-01-23 18:54:48|ehercd|||0|it's emacslicious!
18:38:23 <fizzie> 433848|2008-01-23 18:55:01|ehercd|||0|and perhaps a bit over the top, but hey, it'll beep for you..
18:38:23 <fizzie> 433849|2008-01-23 18:55:13|ehercd|||0|I wonder what would happen if i (dissociated-press)'d right now
18:38:26 <fizzie> That does sound like you.
18:38:55 <alise> yeah it's me mocking ERC
18:39:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, I now return (is_utc, (year, month, day), (hour, minute, second), restofline) from my parsedate function, which seems to work on some test cases
18:39:31 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:42:33 <fizzie> I have a pretty horrible set of regexps for irssi and bip logs.
18:43:35 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/tuks and so on.
18:44:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, I gave up on purely regexp here
18:44:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, and my logs are "xchat-style, but modified)
18:58:19 <alise> ~/local is ugly because the rest of my dirs are sentence-case :<
19:05:16 -!- Arty has joined.
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19:06:24 -!- Arty has quit (Client Quit).
19:06:39 <benuphoenix> programming messups: int add(int in1, int in2){return in1+in2;}
19:06:52 -!- myndzi has joined.
19:06:59 <alise> benuphoenix: what a silly function
19:09:09 <benuphoenix> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/184618/what-is-the-best-comment-in-source-code-you-have-ever-encountered
19:10:49 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:14:20 -!- augur has joined.
19:20:54 <quintopia> oh okay, then i might as well treat him like that other guy who had delusions of godhood 6000 years ago
19:21:29 <alise> he also administrates the esolangs server and wiki.
19:23:04 -!- Vorpal has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:23:10 <Vorpal> (just a test for log parsing)
19:23:18 <quintopia> But there's no way that the Linear-Bounded Automaton complexity class cannot be approved. Already like half the languages on the list claim to be in that class. I have no idea why it does not appear already.
19:24:02 <benuphoenix> Vorpal: is your nick a reference to the Jabberwocky?
19:26:41 -!- calamari- has joined.
19:27:56 <quintopia> benuphoenix: As far as I know, Carroll invented that word, so every use is a reference to Jabberwocky, whether direct or not.
19:29:00 <pikhq> quintopia: Indeed.
19:29:11 <pikhq> Incidentally, the vorpal sword went snicker-snack.
19:31:30 -!- calamari- has quit (Client Quit).
19:32:12 <alise> http://code.technically.us/post/1109586140/exchange-remote-wipe-is-a-terrible-terrible-bug Connect to exchange server on a mobile --> now your administrators can wipe your device
19:32:19 <alise> That's certainly an esoteric feature.
19:32:51 <alise> <quintopia> But there's no way that the Linear-Bounded Automaton complexity class cannot be approved. Already like half the languages on the list claim to be in that class. I have no idea why it does not appear already.
19:32:54 <alise> well, for a start, that's the wrong name :)
19:33:50 <alise> it'd be [[Category:Linear-bounded automaton]]
19:34:21 <alise> i'm stopping you getting killed by Graue.
19:35:24 <quintopia> I created a category without asking earlier this year. I didn't get killed and it's still there. He can't be as mean as you say.
19:35:38 <alise> he's inactive. just you wait
19:35:49 <alise> besides, that violates the policies regardless, so ais523 will probably delete it if he notices
19:36:06 <alise> quintopia: here is what happened the last time someone created a category and Graue noticed: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Stux#Incident
19:36:39 <alise> that's for the year categories. which are now used.
19:37:18 <quintopia> alise: he did notice, told me off, and left them there. i think.\
19:37:31 <Vorpal> gah my log format is ambiguous
19:37:50 <Vorpal> <benuphoenix> Vorpal: is your nick a reference to the Jabberwocky? <- yes, and nethack
19:41:07 <quintopia> I agree with Stux. Graue looks like a douche here.
19:41:15 -!- coppro_ has changed nick to coppro.
19:41:20 -!- coppro has quit (Changing host).
19:41:20 -!- coppro has joined.
19:41:30 <alise> quintopia: yes. his reaction was... over-the-top.
19:41:37 <alise> nonetheless, that's how strong the tradition is.
19:45:56 <quintopia> well, this time i followed procedure. how long will it takes?
19:52:25 <alise> blergh @ java font rendering
20:01:21 <alise> error in: jijs demos button
20:01:25 <alise> could not locate dll GL: find dll
20:01:35 <alise> ('could not locate dll ',y) 13!:8]24
20:03:36 <alise> (The answer is "install mesa development libraries".)
20:04:49 <alise> And yet OpenGL isn't even supported on J64, so it's pointless.
20:04:52 <alise> But you need to anyway.
20:06:31 <alise> More fancy-graphical-esque REPL types should just be web-based. That is, run on a local port.
20:07:02 <alise> Also it would be *really* nice if there was a way to refer to something like http://localhost:python/ rather than http://localhost:894357345/
20:08:35 <Vorpal> alise, could you please send a notice to the channel? For regexp finding purposes. It seems to show different ones for myself and other people
20:09:41 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:09:55 <alise> was mine not good enough?
20:10:19 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't get any ^_^
20:10:31 <Vorpal> alise, huh, I found the error, can you retry please
20:11:47 -!- Leonidas has joined.
20:21:07 <benuphoenix> I typed "/notice I have no idea what I am doing". What did I just do?
20:22:11 <benuphoenix> I kinda need to know so I can defend myself
20:27:57 <olsner> such information will be disclosed on a need-to-know basis, not kinda-need-to-know :)
20:31:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
20:32:27 <fizzie> You most likely would have sent a notice to Mr I, but there seems to be no such person in freenode at the moment.
20:32:44 <fizzie> (Do they even allow one-letter names here?)
20:33:36 <fizzie> "Nick/channel is temporarily unavailable" -- maybe not, then.
20:34:37 <FireFly> alise, there's a command-line interface for J btw
20:34:37 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:35:33 <alise> FireFly: yeah but meh.
20:35:42 -!- wareya has joined.
20:35:45 <alise> <fizzie> (Do they even allow one-letter names here?)
20:36:53 <fizzie> QuakeNet's services have one-letter names; there's at least Q, R and S, maybe O too (I forget).
20:40:27 <FireFly> There was also an L before
20:43:58 <fizzie> alise: Here's a you-related statistic: http://p.zem.fi/48tk
20:44:04 -!- trinithis has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:44:14 <alise> fizzie: you need iEhird in there too :P
20:44:50 <alise> also, my goal is to one day break the 0.5 barrier
20:44:58 <alise> destroying the channel
20:45:10 <fizzie> Oh, I was assuming you'd go to something that's strictly greater than one, then leave.
20:47:38 <fizzie> Well, you know, it's best to have some serious challenge in your goals.
20:52:52 -!- Vorpal has changed nick to Vorpal_.
20:52:53 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal.
20:53:01 <Vorpal> there, fixed the ambig in new logs
20:53:16 <fizzie> alise: Did you know you've written 15298175 bytes of messages here so far? With the usual "one megabyte per book" rule-of-thumb (and that's a *big* book; the h2g2 books are ~300k), you could already publish a 15-volume alisopedia.
20:53:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, to parse my logs I need to switch to a new mode in the middle
20:53:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, as in, a completely different set of regexp
20:58:12 <alise> fizzie: I'm gonna actually do that
20:58:18 <alise> first person to buy it gets laughter
20:58:45 -!- Vorpal has changed nick to Vorpal_.
20:58:46 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal.
21:00:27 -!- tombom has joined.
21:08:38 <fizzie> Also, here's where (some of) you people are: http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap.png
21:09:10 <fizzie> If you object to your neighbours, just remember: math doesn't lie.
21:14:24 <fizzie> It's 32 different vaguely writing-style related features (I can provide a list) computed for all clog'd messages since 2004 for the people in the map; then the two first PCA components plotted as xy-scatterplot.
21:14:58 <olsner> ok, what does that mean? :)
21:15:23 <fizzie> It doesn't really mean much. Besides, I see now that I've used a completely silly feature set; let's redraw a new map.
21:18:21 <fizzie> The default feature spec string seems to be really really boring: it's just a 25-item histogram of word lengths, then word length mean/variance, words per phrase mean/variance, phrases per message mean/variance and frequency of numerics. Even though the script does type/token counts and wordnet wordclass guesstimates and sort-of pronoun group frequencies and all.
21:24:26 <nooga> save as wav and release a record
21:24:36 <nooga> you're experimentam musician
21:25:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't think it is realistic to parse my irc logs before today, since while I could tell apart actions and parts and so on on screen due to colour, it was impossible in log file
21:29:49 <fizzie> Replotted that esomap with a more sensible settings.
21:30:01 -!- LeeWi_ has joined.
21:31:30 -!- LeeWi_ has left (?).
21:31:38 <fizzie> Heh, I scared someone off.
21:32:01 <fizzie> I wonder if I should, you know, /msg after or something.
21:32:22 <fizzie> I was just writing a "no, no, it's fine, it just makes me wonder" reply when he jumped ship.
21:49:16 <fizzie> Gah, octave's plotting functions are horreeble, even comparing to MATLAB, which is no picnic either.
22:00:51 <fizzie> I told em in a privmsg that I didn't actually mean e couldn't be here, but it didn't seem to help. Oh well.
22:00:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:01:11 -!- augur has joined.
22:06:55 <fizzie> Wow, that's a remarkably horrible plot: http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png
22:08:40 <olsner> I should start spewing more garbage so I get included in stats like these
22:08:53 <Vorpal> random log quote: "* tusho Swhacks himself for being a naughty pirate."
22:09:24 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Wow, that's a remarkably horrible plot: http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png <-- what does it show?
22:09:27 <fizzie> olsner: If I keep adding more people in that plot, it's going to be... uh, I can't say "unreadable", because it already is, but... "unreadabler?"
22:09:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, besides being truncated at the side
22:09:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some of the (potentially more interesting) raw components used for esomap.png
22:09:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can guess most of the truncated bits, though.
22:10:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the esomap thingy
22:10:39 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap.png -- "It's 32 [actually 60] different vaguely writing-style related features (I can provide a list) computed for all clog'd messages since 2004 for the people in the map; then the two first PCA components plotted as xy-scatterplot."
22:10:52 <fizzie> (I said that a few lines up there.)
22:11:20 <fizzie> Principal Component Analysis.
22:11:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I can't guess at what "artion frequency" is, nor what "cy (she+her+hers+herself)" is
22:12:02 <fizzie> It basically finds the directions of largest variances for multidimensional data.
22:12:09 <Vorpal> also "ses per paragraph"?
22:12:27 <fizzie> "ation frequency" -> "punctuation frequency"; it's part of the same set as the one under it, which does show more of it.
22:12:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, and what is the number at the end of each line
22:12:49 <fizzie> "cy (word1+word2+word3)" -> "something something group of words frequency (word1+word2+word3)"
22:13:08 <fizzie> Those are the actual numeric values at start and end.
22:13:41 <fizzie> I tried to do it with a 16-part subplot, but it kept putting space everywhere and titles wherever, so I had to put them all in the same X axis; it's "physically" plotted for the [0, 1] range.
22:14:00 <fizzie> That's "phrases per paragraph"; it's a sort-of logical continuation to "chars per word" + "words per phrase".
22:14:20 <fizzie> "paragraph" here means "message" in this context.
22:14:38 <fizzie> Oh, and the numeric values are probably normalized somehow, don't recall exactly how.
22:14:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, what tool do you use for these
22:15:01 <fizzie> A really messy Perl thing I/we wrote for a previous course on natural language processing.
22:15:08 <Vorpal> and those "PCA components", which ones are those?
22:15:12 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:15:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, as in: I have no clue what "Principal Component Analysis" means
22:15:29 <Sgeo> Updating Flash makes a real difference to the browser's stability
22:15:36 <fizzie> <fizzie> It basically finds the directions of largest variances for multidimensional data.
22:15:37 <Sgeo> I think I _can_ survive on Puppy for a while
22:15:40 <fizzie> That's sort of what it is.
22:16:06 <fizzie> There's an illustrative plot in two dimensions at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GaussianScatterPCA.png
22:16:28 <fizzie> (The arrows there are the two principal components.)
22:16:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, are the components always orthogonal?
22:16:51 <alise> <Vorpal> random log quote: "* tusho Swhacks himself for being a naughty pirate."
22:17:01 <alise> I'll give you whatever you want, just don't tell the tabloids!
22:17:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, IIRC it builds an orthogonal basis always.
22:17:36 <fizzie> "PCA is mathematically defined[2] as an orthogonal linear transformation that transforms the data to a new coordinate system such that the greatest variance by any projection of the data comes to lie on the first coordinate (called the first principal component), the second greatest variance on the second coordinate, and so on. PCA is theoretically the optimum transform for given data in least square terms." That's very succinctly put, quoted from wikipedia.
22:17:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, so that means that the last axis will always be fixed to be orthogonal against the other ones. But I don't see how you can go from 64 dimensions to 2
22:18:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, 2 <-> 2 is easy
22:18:12 <alise> 05:43:13 <tusho> Hmm. I haven't bought any albums, recently, apart from this one.
22:18:12 <alise> 05:43:19 * tusho Swhacks himself for being a naughty pirate.
22:18:12 <alise> 05:43:23 * tusho denies that Swhack.
22:18:12 <alise> 05:43:30 <tusho> (/me checks download status...)
22:18:12 <fizzie> Oh, I just only plotted the first two ones; those are, after all, where the largest variance is.
22:18:14 <alise> YOUR LIES HAVE BEEN EXPOSD
22:18:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, these axis could be somewhere between the original ones I presume?
22:19:10 <fizzie> Sure, otherwise it'd be just "find variance for each component, select max".
22:19:21 <alise> 05:59:16 <ais523> and this mouse is very crappy, I suspect it's made of cardboard but am not sure
22:19:45 <Vorpal> alise, huh? I didn't check the context, it was a purely random selection from actions said by you
22:20:07 <alise> Assuming you realise what the standalone message sounded like without context.
22:20:15 <Vorpal> alise, yeah after I pasted it :P
22:20:22 <Vorpal> alise, but before you responded
22:21:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, fancy stuff, you need to make an n-dimensional explorer for it! Hm didn't glfunge do that kind of?
22:21:19 <Vorpal> or was that some other one
22:21:40 <fizzie> It was on the todo list, but I don't think I got very far. Some other one might've done it better.
22:22:19 <Vorpal> that non-compliant bequnge or whatever iirc did it
22:22:23 <fizzie> What I should do is to randomly divide those per-person datasets into N parts and compute the features separately for each one, then you'd get to see a bit how much intra-person variance there is.
22:23:19 <alise> Vorpal: I have formulated two SQL queries to generate micro-arguments.
22:23:22 <alise> sqlite> select nick, body from logs where type="0" and (nick like "ehird%" or nick like "tusho%" or nick like "alise%") and (body like "AnMaster:%" or body like "Vorpal:%") order by random() limit 1;
22:23:23 <alise> sqlite> select nick, body from logs where type="0" and (nick like "AnMaster%" or nick like "Vorpal%") and (body like "ehird%," or body like "tusho%," or body like "alise%,") order by random() limit 1;
22:23:33 <alise> Read results after one another.
22:23:35 <alise> Sgeo: slock is far superior
22:23:52 <fizzie> Sgeo: Oh, you're here; re Turing-completeness of sqlite/triggers, see http://p.zem.fi/sqlite-tm.sql
22:23:54 <alise> http://tools.suckless.org/slock
22:24:13 <alise> sqlite> select nick, body from logs where type="0" and (nick like "ehird%" or nick like "tusho%" or nick like "alise%") and (body like "AnMaster:%" or body like "Vorpal:%") order by random() limit 1; select nick, body from logs where type="0" and (nick like "AnMaster%" or nick like "Vorpal%") and (body like "ehird%," or body like "tusho%," or body like "alise%,") order by random() limit 1;
22:24:14 <alise> as a single command
22:24:15 <Vorpal> alise, what is the word for "not realistic setting in historical work" now again
22:24:25 <alise> Vorpal: oh wait i got something wrong
22:24:29 <alise> Vorpal: err "fictionalised"?
22:24:33 <alise> i'm not sure what you mean
22:24:38 <Sgeo> What happens if someone sees an xlock-ed or slock-ed screen and just presses Ctrl-Alt-Backspace?
22:24:48 <alise> sqlite> select nick, body from logs where type="0" and (nick like "ehird%" or nick like "tusho%" or nick like "alise%") and (body like "AnMaster:%" or body like "Vorpal:%") order by random() limit 1; select nick, body from logs where type="0" and (nick like "AnMaster%" or nick like "Vorpal%") and (body like "ehird%,%" or body like "tusho%,%" or body like "alise%,%") order by random() limit 1;
22:24:56 <Vorpal> alise, no, as in clothes from wrong period in a holy wood movie taking place in 1400 century
22:24:59 <alise> Sgeo: seeing an slocked screen == seing nothing :P
22:25:02 <alise> Vorpal: anachronism
22:25:07 <alise> anachronistic, etc.
22:25:19 <Vorpal> alise, mixing ehird and vorpal in an argument is anachronistic
22:25:21 <alise> ehird|AnMaster: not the same thing
22:25:21 <alise> AnMaster|alise, terminal edition? I want F24!
22:25:22 <Vorpal> that was what I wanted to say
22:25:35 <alise> it seems to always show as ehird/AnMaster
22:25:47 <alise> ehird|AnMaster: if you want to use GUI subversion on OS X, http://versionsapp.com/ seems the most popualr way.
22:25:47 <alise> AnMaster|ehird, see the "unauthicated" at the top?
22:25:51 <Sgeo> And arbitrary turing machines can be constructed in this fashion?
22:25:55 <alise> ehird|AnMaster: you're using the closed source virtualbox right
22:25:55 <alise> AnMaster|ehird, why?
22:26:07 <Vorpal> alise, probably most common
22:26:14 <Vorpal> AssertionError: invalid log body: 471
22:26:18 <fizzie> Sgeo: I'm pretty confident they can, though I haven't algorithmized the construction yet.
22:26:20 <Vorpal> from importing own logs
22:26:22 <alise> Vorpal: i would have expected one alise or tusho by now, though
22:26:32 <Sgeo> fizzie: You're awesome
22:26:34 <alise> ehird|AnMaster: Does bzr work on Windows?
22:26:34 <alise> Vorpal|alise, while I'm pretty sure it mentions - should work. Like it does for cat and so on
22:26:50 <alise> http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png ;; so who wins eh
22:27:08 <alise> also, are people at opposite ends most-unalike for that?
22:27:45 <alise> alise|AnMaster: GHC doesn't take much RAM to compile. I don't _want_ OpenOffice.
22:27:45 <alise> AnMaster|ehird, I have seen enough of the file format
22:27:46 <fizzie> alise: Yes, though the actual numeric values that it shows at both ends seem to have been normalized a bit.
22:28:10 <alise> Vorpal: Ha, the first actually-coherent argument:
22:28:12 <alise> tusho|AnMaster: the second sentence is irrelevant
22:28:12 <alise> AnMaster|tusho, you wouldn't have said that if I pointed out the error :P
22:28:31 <alise> ehird|AnMaster: that's as may be.
22:28:31 <alise> AnMaster|ehird, CRT? where?
22:28:40 <alise> randomised #esoteric would make a great automatically generated comic strip
22:28:48 <Sgeo> It's incredible how rarely I use descriptive adjectives
22:29:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, those components, how do you get "verbs"? Do you use a dict? What about made up words then
22:29:34 <alise> Vorpal: does "not like" work in SQL?
22:30:01 <alise> i don't need it actually, just realised
22:30:28 <alise> A: i think i might make an evolutionary AI for blahbot`
22:30:56 <Vorpal> * ehird considers gobolinux+etoile
22:31:00 <Vorpal> alise, what was etoile?
22:31:13 <alise> http://etoileos.com/
22:31:19 <alise> they're basically taking GNUStep + Smalltalk
22:31:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: The word classes are very much guesswork. For each word, it takes all wordnet's senses that have frequency counts, selects the most frequent one, and classifies as that. It completely fails to take context into account, e.g. "red" is always an adjective, not a noun, since wordnet count for red (adj) is 43, for red (noun) 9.
22:31:26 <Vorpal> "* oerjan hits himself ===\___/"
22:31:29 <alise> and developing it into something pretty awesome
22:31:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's a pile of context-considering word-class disambiguators, but they all take a horrible amount of time to run.
22:31:51 <Sgeo> What's this about Smalltalk?
22:31:56 <alise> Sgeo: No Smalltalk.
22:32:01 <alise> It's actually based on... C++.
22:32:12 <Sgeo> <alise> they're basically taking GNUStep + Smalltalk
22:32:14 <alise> And... and... PHP.
22:32:18 <alise> Sgeo: I was lying.
22:32:21 <Sgeo> You're just trying to scare me
22:32:22 <Vorpal> oh yeah the name of the colour
22:32:29 <alise> NO SMALLTALK THER.
22:32:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: 1. (9) red, redness -- (red color or pigment; the chromatic color resembling the hue of blood)
22:32:42 <nooga> GNUStep vs Apple's stuff
22:32:46 <alise> nooga: gnustep is shit but etoile are doing a surprising job at making it awesome
22:32:49 <alise> (they're not trying to clone OS X)
22:32:59 <nooga> etoile looks promising
22:33:02 <Sgeo> The webpage has code that looks very Smalltalk-y
22:33:07 <alise> Sgeo: nope it's C++
22:33:14 <nooga> but i think it's too early to assess it
22:33:47 <Sgeo> You don't actually think I believe you right now, do you?
22:33:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway parsing my own logs turn out to be hugely complicated
22:34:02 <alise> Sgeo: I'm just hoping.
22:34:08 <alise> Vorpal: just use a heuristic for joins/parts
22:34:20 <alise> "It is a port of the GoboLinux tools to Cygwin, allowing them to be used on top of Windows." But... why?
22:34:36 <Vorpal> alise, "* alise action" "* Topic for #esoteric is"
22:34:46 <alise> Vorpal: assume that nobody called Topic has ever been in
22:34:49 <alise> just use this for topics
22:34:56 <alise> /\* Topic for #esoteric is /
22:35:04 <alise> if it gets some false shit in, meh, who cares
22:35:06 <Vorpal> alise, it will misclassify a lot. "* [alise] blah blah" is a whois result
22:35:13 <alise> i've never been called [alise]
22:35:20 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to [Sgeo].
22:35:20 <alise> so just filter out all [foo]s
22:35:31 <alise> but it's old stuff
22:35:35 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I made actions use * and non-actions use + from now on
22:35:41 <alise> so just parse the old stuff, re-save them and fix errors when you come across them
22:35:45 <alise> i.e. convert to new format with a heuristic
22:35:49 <Vorpal> alise, oh and /exec without -o went to log without the timestamp
22:35:58 <Vorpal> but some other stuff also lacks timestamp
22:36:43 <[Sgeo]> Eating half of dinner at the pizza place
22:36:49 <Vorpal> alise, and what I'm doing currently is writing those heuristics :P Which is hugely complicated
22:37:11 <Vorpal> * [Sgeo] screws with stuff <-- it won't mess up stuff any more :P
22:40:34 <Vorpal> alise, "<ehird> I should become the U.S. archivist."
22:45:42 <Vorpal> * oerjan doesn't think people would be happy if he started using #esoteric for backup
22:45:45 <Vorpal> I wonder how that would work
22:46:01 <Vorpal> * oerjan suddenly has an idea for an #esoteric slogan <-- I think I need to read the context here
22:48:01 <Vorpal> * ais523 quickly leafs through their #esoteric handbook for the bit on protecting oneself from an angry Slereah_$
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22:48:03 <nooga> Vorpal: dump base64fied files and then restore them from logs
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22:51:03 <fizzie> Hey, that's actually a pretty nice spread: http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapn.png
22:51:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are the colours
22:51:40 <fizzie> Just arbitrary colours 30 degrees apart in the hue wheel.
22:51:43 <nooga> i've got the biggest spread ad 6
22:51:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does it depict
22:51:59 <nooga> what does this mean?
22:52:23 <fizzie> It's again two first PCA components, except this time for each person's messages have been randomly split into ten parts.
22:52:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, and why is pikhq so similar to oerjan
22:52:44 <fizzie> Based on that, given a large enough sample, even these simple features could be used to determine reasonably reliably which one out of these 13 people was speaking, except that pikhq/oerjan do get confused.
22:53:02 <fizzie> Using all the 60 dimensions could easily unconfuse those two too, this is just a 2-dimensional projection after all.
22:53:04 <alise> fizzie: so do I win?
22:53:10 <alise> also, i could guess who said who
22:53:12 <alise> with very high accuracy
22:53:17 <alise> assuming it was just the regulars
22:53:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is also some sgeo/deewiant overlap
22:53:27 <alise> i could easily distinguish sgeo/deewiant
22:53:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is interesting to note both me and alise have very small spread
22:53:38 <alise> seriously, set up a game where it randomly gets a, say, 5-line chunk of logs
22:53:40 <Vorpal> perhaps due to larger sample size?
22:53:42 <fizzie> alise: Sure, but you're not an algorithm.
22:53:42 <alise> and make me fill in the names
22:53:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, thus meaning it will be more uniform?
22:53:53 <nooga> fizzie: make an animated 4d projection
22:54:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, larger datasets probably make for smaller variance there.
22:54:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, might be interesting to split in equal sized bins, so everyone get n messages per dot
22:54:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, to see if the spread size does vary much or not
22:55:07 <alise> pikhq: I sure hope Fine Structure becomes more than merely a collection of Hughes' best short stories as it goes on.
22:55:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't have a script for that handy, but I can test-run that too.
23:00:27 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:03:25 <fizzie> (But later; early morning tomorrow.)
23:03:45 <Vorpal> alise, * ais523 is confused that tusho seems to think that ais523 is a ChanServ expert
23:04:17 <alise> he's said similar things to you far many more times
23:04:45 <alise> are you just randomly logreading?
23:07:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I did one more slight prettification to the existing esomapn.png, though: added contour-ellipses at sigma and 2*sigma for gaussians fitted on those ten points. (Though ten is not a very large sample to estimate things from, so... Still, it looks undeniably more sci-fi now.)
23:07:54 <Vorpal> alise, I'm taking last action by you or involving you in the screenful before a crash of the parser
23:08:05 <Vorpal> or in some cases not involving you
23:12:38 <alise> STAR TREKKIN' ACROSS #ESOTERICVERSE
23:12:54 <alise> ON THE STARSHIP IRC, UNDER CAPTAIN ... UM... ...!!
23:12:56 <alise> STAR TREKKIN' ACROSS #ESOTERICVERSE
23:13:16 <alise> fizzie: Weren't those lines before?
23:13:20 <alise> Or was it changed from that earlier?
23:14:18 <Vorpal> "* ehird googles core i7 sucks"
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23:19:01 <fizzie> The lines weren't in an earlier version, but I just sneakily updated in-place.
23:19:49 <alise> Random 32-bit number in J: #.?32$2
23:21:05 <alise> Random 32-bit number redux: ?2^32
23:21:10 <alise> But the former has a different distribution, I think.
23:21:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, do pikhq and oerjan differ more on some pther PCAs?
23:22:41 <Vorpal> <alise> STAR TREKKIN' ACROSS #ESOTERICVERSE <-- too long to fit on the line. try "esoverse" to get the same number of syllables
23:23:11 <alise> "lament" is too long, "fizzie" is too long, "lilo" is too long and too dead
23:23:23 <nooga> i've actually never watched it
23:23:24 <alise> Vorpal: founder is andreou, but
23:23:32 <alise> -ChanServ- 1 andreou +votsriRfAF [modified ? ago]
23:23:33 <alise> -ChanServ- 2 fizzie +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
23:23:33 <alise> -ChanServ- 3 lament +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
23:23:33 <alise> -ChanServ- 4 Aardappel +votiA [modified ? ago]
23:23:33 <alise> -ChanServ- 5 oerjan +votsriRfA [modified 30 weeks, 1 day, 01:00:41 ago]
23:23:38 <alise> nooga: our glorious founder
23:23:52 <nooga> i don't know him, never talked with him
23:23:58 <Vorpal> alise, also it needs a longer starship name than irc
23:24:03 <Vorpal> enterprise is far longer
23:24:30 <Vorpal> AssertionError: invalid log body: SOCKSProxy failed to connect to host (error 1).
23:25:01 <alise> Vorpal: eye are cee
23:25:08 <alise> same syllables, fits perfectly
23:25:17 <alise> only stupid people say irk :)
23:25:33 <alise> j is so much fun to try and work out
23:27:08 <alise> *y is _1 if y is negative, 0 if it is zero, 1 if it is positive; more generally, *y is the intersection of the unit circle with the line from the origin through the argument y in the complex plane."
23:27:54 <nooga> this etoile actually looks really cool
23:28:08 <nooga> i always wanted to use Obj-C outside of OSX
23:30:12 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap34n.png -- 3rd/4th principal components. These differentiate oerjan and pikhq a bit better.
23:30:47 <nooga> fizzie: why a I always in a different place?
23:31:16 <nooga> ha, alise has the smallest galaxy :D
23:31:50 <Vorpal> nooga, not unexpected as discussed before
23:31:54 <Vorpal> nooga, smaller is better
23:31:56 <fizzie> Is that "different" as in "different from others" or "different between images"?
23:32:47 <alise> so what does smaller actually mean?
23:32:59 <fizzie> A lot of those features are means, which tend to have smaller variance as the sample size grows. I'll see if I can do that same-sized sets thing.
23:33:45 <fizzie> With same sample sizes, a tighter grouping would mean the things it measures don't vary much in the person's text.
23:33:49 <nooga> fizzie: different between images, i guess that's because of perspective
23:34:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could use all axis to get some useful differentiation between everyone perhaps?
23:34:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Any sensible classifier would use all 60 components, sure.
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23:35:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw apart from the components being orthogonal, are they also the same length
23:36:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, forgot what "all axis having equal-sized 1" was called
23:36:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't think it's orthonormal, no.
23:36:27 <Vorpal> ah right that was the word
23:37:41 <fizzie> alise: I'll try out training an alise-detecting neural net tomorrow or later. :p
23:38:41 <nooga> just map one, small part of my brain
23:40:29 <fizzie> Extracting algorithms out of brains, now that'd be quite a neat trick.
23:41:14 <nooga> alise: nothing, it's just that somehow i can tell that you is you even if you change nick
23:41:43 <alise> it's easy to tell who says something even if you don't look
23:41:46 <nooga> the small part of my brain directs my fingers to type /whois <insert_nick_here> and etc.
23:41:47 <alise> we're all very predictable
23:42:48 <nooga> even if i will start producing textual white noise
23:49:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, please include zzo in that graph too
23:49:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, just to see where he ends up
23:50:50 <alise> Vorpal: the galaxy would appear outside of your screen's border
23:51:44 <Vorpal> hm how to best characterise zzo? Perhaps the almost agressive accepting of the other persons viewpoint after stating his own? (But <foo> is fine too if you prefer it that way)
23:51:48 <nooga> alise: that was not a question
23:51:51 <Vorpal> or his use of "source codes"
23:51:57 <Vorpal> rather than "source code"
23:52:13 <Vorpal> to me code in the sense of "source code" is uncountable
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00:04:05 <nooga> nerdymon in a nerdyball!
00:04:21 <Vorpal> (and yes I did get the poke reference)
00:04:28 <alise> pikhq: Please regularly remind me that Fine Structure comments are spoilery.
00:04:30 <Vorpal> (but um, couldn't think of a new way to continue it )
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00:14:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, alise: "* GregorR-L forces it into EgoBot >: )"
00:15:05 <alise> Also illegal in 41 states.
00:15:54 <Vorpal> alise, yes he was forcing "Furryscript" into it
00:16:06 <Vorpal> alise, which makes it even more kinky I guess XD
00:16:19 <Vorpal> alise, furryscript being zzo's scripting language
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00:16:49 <Vorpal> AssertionError: broken timestamp: UNLOAD <filename|name> <-- indeed, and I hate xchat that I was using back then
00:17:08 <nooga> this word reminds me this weird type of pornography that is somewhat popular (and hated) on 4chan
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00:19:01 <alise> Vorpal: Furryscript's main competitor: http://esolangs.org/wiki/FURscript
00:19:15 <alise> (Quite infamous, as I'm sure you know.)
00:19:18 <alise> (Also: meant to be serious.)
00:19:50 <alise> "The person who designed this language was 100% serious about it and the vb6 compiler, but I think he got as far as a text box and a copyright notice before going back to programming his graphics calculator. --Einsidler 10:44, 24 Nov 2006 (UTC)"
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00:23:57 <nooga> we have even a suitable category
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00:27:26 <nooga> i'd love to design another esolang but it's probably impossible to make something completely new
00:29:01 <alise> pikhq: Why has he just stuck all his short stories together and called them a novel?
00:29:04 -!- distant_figure has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:29:07 <alise> (Note: I realise it'll change as I keep reading.)
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00:31:49 <pikhq> alise: It shows that he's new to novels.
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00:32:27 <alise> pikhq: No. The Ed stories flowed better than this. If I was reading this without knowledge of their prior status, I'd assume he's up to something.
00:32:30 <alise> pikhq: It is complete now, right?
00:32:36 <nooga> alise: last time i discovered something exciting... it turned out to be a perfectly normal lisp
00:32:42 <alise> nooga: Heh; what was it?
00:33:07 <nooga> i tried to design something like ais' Feather
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00:34:42 <pikhq> alise: It also gets more flowing later...
00:35:22 <alise> pikhq: Good. I just have to ask this, and please answer as vaguely as possible -- a simple "yes" or "no" will be fine -- do these disconnected fragments actually get picked up again, or are they just there to fuck with me?
00:36:04 <alise> Hey, my answer questioned: there's Seph again.
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00:36:10 <Sgeo|web> You're finally reading Fine Structure?
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00:36:28 <pikhq> alise: They get picked up again.
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00:36:52 <alise> I have a horrible urge to write some sci-fi, and I'm suppressing it as well as I can because I know it'd be terrible.
00:37:28 <alise> [["Yes," says Mitch. "I can walk through stuff. And myself." He passes his wrists through each other.
00:37:28 <alise> "Don't-- don't do that," says Seph, "it could be bad for you."]]
00:37:45 <alise> (I've read this chapter before. Actually I think I've read all of these chapters before. I might not have read one.)
00:37:48 <alise> Sgeo|web: Oh, chapter. Right.
00:37:55 <alise> Indistinguishable from magic.
00:38:01 <alise> *"Indistinguishable from magic".
00:38:20 <alise> *I might not have read one of them before.)
00:38:34 <alise> That is, there is one of them that I might not have read; not "it is a possibility that I have not read any of them before".
00:39:47 <Sgeo|web> Up to a certain point, I presume
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00:42:11 <alise> Right, that's what I mean.
00:42:17 <alise> The standalone stories that have been integrated into the timeline.
00:42:30 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Why haven't you switched to Ubuntu yet?
00:42:44 <alise> "Indistinguishable from magic" is the first one that has never been standalone yet, I think.
00:43:07 <alise> "Power Of Two" was a directory but not inside Fine Structure to start with, I think.
00:43:36 <alise> "Indistinguishable from magic" has always been part of Fine Structure, though, to my knowledge. Nonetheless, I have read it. I believe it was the first story for a while.
00:43:39 <nooga> alise: nothing, at one point i proved that my meta abstractions system is just lisp's macro system
00:44:15 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:44:16 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Power of Two was once taken offline due to someone claiming it could get published, iirc
00:44:49 <alise> [[2008-07-18 18:30:49 by Paradoxia:
00:44:50 <alise> Ah, I see what you're saying. He **REDACTED**
00:44:50 <alise> 2008-07-18 18:59:56 by Sam:
00:44:50 <alise> Paradoxia, I edited your comment because it gives away plot details from later in the story.]]
00:44:53 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Yes, that's what I mean.
00:45:07 <alise> The two teleportation stories were outside at first, too, I think.
00:45:37 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Might nto be the best idea to read comments before you've read the whole thing
00:45:49 <alise> And now I'm turning into Teal'c.
00:46:02 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: "Unbelievable scenes" is a bit of a bad opening because I thought "FUCK YEAH I hope the next few chapters are like this too".
00:47:13 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> I saw all the speculation about USIS, but... I'm shutting up now
00:48:08 <alise> USIS? Would it be a spoiler to expand that acronym?
00:49:21 <alise> Why did you think it was "in space"? :P
00:50:54 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> I was about to say the name, but if you twisted it just right, you'd get a spoiler
00:50:55 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Let me guess: Spoilers?
00:51:07 <alise> Is "Unbelievable scenes in space" a spoiler?
00:51:24 <Vorpal> alise, "Unbelievable scenes in spoilers"
00:51:26 <alise> Actually, I should probably just remember your track record with Fine Structure spoilers and ignore you until I finish it.
00:51:36 <alise> But I'm too foolish and kind-hearted to.
00:52:13 <alise> But you will link to a ROT-13 decoder and say a bunch of stuff in ROT-13, and then say "...which is how Fine Structure ends".
00:52:34 * alise wonders why the story's continuing as normal when all the stars and shit have been blinked out.
00:52:39 <alise> (Yes, yes, I know, non-chronological order.)
00:52:56 <alise> (Fabula and sujet and all that.)
01:03:47 <alise> Well, then, now you know.
01:04:00 <alise> Hey, and Power Of Two reaches its next chapter: Exponents.
01:04:08 <alise> Don't like that capital O. I don't like it.
01:04:53 <alise> And the characters connect again!
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01:23:35 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Is Ching's first name Kuang?
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01:25:55 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: I know FTL gets invented, but I've forgotten the name of the guy who does it already. :) Bloody comments.
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01:26:21 <alise> Unless it just meant whoever invented the device here on Earth in On Digital Extremities and onwards.
01:26:27 <alise> Huh. Alright then.
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01:27:11 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Oh, and you may be thinking of a story that's retconned ouyt
01:29:10 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: I have not read the story, as I explained.
01:29:12 <alise> So thanks for the spoiler.
01:29:27 <alise> Also, you just spoilered that it stays blocked forever.
01:29:46 <alise> [FTL gets invented, implicitly "sometime in the future"] "No it doesn't"
01:29:50 <alise> Provided as evidence:
01:29:51 <alise> <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Oh, FTLC?
01:29:51 <alise> <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Well, that's blocked, which you should know already
01:30:30 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Whether this means that it stays blocked or not... well, I'm not saying
01:32:29 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Don't attempt to decode, from what I've said, information about the future of the story
01:33:31 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: No, but you see, you reacted to "faster-than-light communication gets invented" with "no it doesn't". You then say "perhaps you meant [this form of it]?" and then state that it does not work; obviously, the answer you gave first is validated by your second negation, meaning that it never gets unblocked.
01:33:48 <alise> Anyway, maybe I should just try not to talk to you about Fine Structure and vice versa until I'm done with it and it is impossible to spoil me. :P
01:34:04 <alise> I still remember a bunch of people suffocate at one point.
01:36:15 <alise> Why do you want such a person?
01:36:24 <alise> (Wow, that's a pretty ghastly way to kill someone wrt. Eleven.)
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01:36:58 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> alise, warning: You do not want the answer to that question
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01:38:21 <alise> lol @ the use of BBC "News"
01:38:31 <alise> (The tendency of the BBC to put every damn thing in quotes in news headlines)
01:38:38 <alise> ("Two killed in "transporter accident"")
01:40:12 <alise> Only if you check really damn hard that it provides no possible inferrable information about the story to someone who has not read "Two killed in "transporter accident"" or beyond yet.
01:40:36 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> I don't think "Stuff happens" being inferrable is that bad
01:41:22 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Outside of the official stories, but still canonical, is another thing in that format
01:41:33 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Whether there are more things of that format within the stories, I'm not sure
01:42:34 <alise> There is canon outside of the official stories?
01:42:39 <alise> Is that not a contradiction?
01:43:40 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Is listing them a spoiler?
01:43:51 <nooga> well, i just typed it
01:44:27 <alise> Why are there so many fucking spoilers?
01:44:33 <alise> What are the extras? The notes below the stories?
01:44:42 <alise> Are the CHAPTER TITLES spoilers? I've read them.
01:44:57 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> The thing listed asExtras, appendices, feedback (subdirectory)
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01:46:19 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: *as Extras,
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01:47:38 <nooga> distant_figure annoys me with this cycling
01:48:01 <alise> I think I like Mitch.
01:48:04 <alise> distant_figure: Stop it.
01:48:17 <alise> he lives in south africa
01:48:20 <alise> probably their power grid
01:48:36 <alise> he's mentioned it going off and on a lot before
01:48:49 <alise> iirc they have regular planned downtime of the power grid too :)
01:48:59 <nooga> i would buy a diesel generator in such case
01:49:26 <nooga> or even use my car to generate electricity for computers
01:49:50 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> alise, I'd ask you a question, but you'd be able to ... um
01:50:20 <nooga> ooooooh, it's soo late
01:50:49 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: "I'd ask you a question, but you'd be able to" is not a spoiler.
01:50:53 <alise> So what the fuck is it now?
01:51:04 <nooga> sleep time, good night
01:51:15 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> alise, yes it is. If you squint real hard and are a bit psychic
01:51:28 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: It really isn't.
01:52:24 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: It is a spoiler, yes?
01:52:46 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Remember when I said we just shouldn't talk about it?
01:52:57 <alise> I am trying to enjoy a novel here. :P
01:53:16 <alise> Ooh a SUBDIRECTORY.
01:54:29 <alise> Arcologies sure feature a lot in this.
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01:58:00 <alise> http://qntm.org/structure, for what it's worth.
01:59:33 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Am I meant to be completely disoriented, chronologically?
01:59:39 <Gregor> Maaaan, I own the domain name onero.us and I STILL do nothing useful with it.
01:59:47 -!- trinithis has joined.
01:59:52 <alise> Gregor: I'll buy it.
02:00:03 <Gregor> alise: No way! Also you can't, legally :P
02:00:13 <alise> Gregor: No, but you can let it drop. Or I could pay you fees. :P
02:00:20 <alise> (Let it drop in exchange for me paying you a lump sum, that is.)
02:00:37 <Gregor> alise: No, I mean you can't own it in that it's a .us domain and you're not a US resident. Not that this is really enforced, but /technically/.
02:00:56 <alise> Gregor: Well let's pretend I am a US resident.
02:01:13 <Gregor> alise: Then it's just the age problem :P
02:01:26 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: This thing must be set in an alternate universe; presumably 1970- is implying some sort of circa 1970 onwards setting here, and it's definitely not after the present day due to the vehicles mentioned, so...
02:01:32 <alise> Gregor: What age problem?
02:01:44 <alise> Do you actually own it or just rent it like everyone else?
02:01:46 <zzo38> O, it is a story about information? Is a book available?
02:01:54 <alise> zzo38: There are PDFs available that you could print out.
02:01:57 <Sgeo|FsckPuppy> Maybe you'll reorient yourself once you finish reading 1970-
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02:02:07 <Gregor> alise: I just rent it like everyone else, but that's still a contract.
02:02:10 <alise> "A story about information" hasn't quite come together yet; but then, these are localised segments.
02:02:23 <alise> Gregor: Well, I happen to have purported to agree to several of them and nobody's g--
02:02:29 <alise> Gregor: I can flagrantly violate the terms of my domain contracts.
02:02:37 <zzo38> alise: OK, I might try the PDF
02:02:54 <alise> zzo38: There's two PDFs. I guess they're formatted differently.
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02:03:17 <alise> zzo38: I'd go for the second.
02:03:21 <alise> It's smaller, and better typeset.
02:04:08 <zzo38> alise: The files are a lot of pages. Where can I purchase this book?
02:04:24 <alise> zzo38: There is no printed copy as of yet. You could print the PDF, or just read it online.
02:04:33 <alise> Or you could use lulu.com to create your own print copy using that formatted PDF.
02:04:38 <alise> And then buy it... from yourself...
02:05:43 <zzo38> alise: I would rather buy it from the author, if I can. If I can somehow make something on lulu.com to make it pay someone else, and that I can indicate who to pay, for each book even in the same account to be able to put payment to different people
02:06:07 <alise> zzo38: You could set it to the minimum price so that all money goes to Lulu, and then send some money to Sam Hughes.
02:06:21 <alise> I imagine he'd give you an address to send a cheque or such to if you emailed him.
02:06:25 <zzo38> alise: But that won't do if someone else purchases the book too
02:06:34 <alise> zzo38: You can set it so that only you can see it.
02:06:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: I do sometimes read the log
02:06:41 <alise> Then nobody else would be able to purchase it, making it a personal copy.
02:06:56 <alise> His email is on this page, obfuscated for spambots: http://qntm.org/contact
02:07:08 <alise> "I am not looking to add advertisements to qntm.org at this time. Thanks for your interest." ;; guess he didn't bother to update it when he added Google ads
02:07:27 <zzo38> alise: But what if someone else wants to buy it, too?
02:07:48 <alise> zzo38: Then... they'll just have to do what you did. Or, far more likely, read it online or print out their own copy.
02:07:59 <alise> Or you could simply promise to give all profits from the book to Sam Hughes.
02:09:09 <alise> 361 pages; I would have expected the book to be longer.
02:09:33 <alise> Sgeo|FsckPuppy: Gosh, the start of Crash Zero is a bit boring.
02:09:58 <zzo38> alise: That is not a bad idea. But, if I run a business selling this book, I am not going to give *all* the profits to Sam Hughes (but I will give most of the profits). But when I have time to run a business, this can be one of the products. And then he can earn the money, too!
02:10:10 <alise> zzo38: But you wouldn't have done anything but fill out a form on Lulu.
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02:10:26 <alise> They process all orders, they print and mail out all copies, they take their chunk of the profit (plus however much you want, possibly nothing).
02:10:41 <alise> So taking profits would be a bit disingenuous... and illegal, too, without explicit consent from Sam Hughes.
02:10:55 <alise> Actually, so would publishing a public edition in the first place.
02:11:18 <zzo38> alise: I know. I can't publish it at all without permission, of course.
02:11:30 <zzo38> That is why I suggest I would rather I purchase it from *his* Lulu account.
02:11:30 <alise> Untrue; you can make a private copy for yourself on Lulu like I suggested.
02:11:46 <alise> He has stated he will not publish on any "vanity" press, i.e. self-service presses.
02:11:48 <alise> This includes Lulu.
02:11:55 <alise> So you're out of luck on that front.
02:13:14 <zzo38> alise: Ah, I guess I can make a private copy to myself and then delete it. I might consider doing that.
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02:15:42 <zzo38> But not yet. It will be much later.
02:16:53 -!- distant_figure has joined.
02:17:21 <alise> zzo38: I suggest doing what Sgeo|FsckPuppy just suggested.
02:17:52 -!- Sgeo|FsckPuppy has changed nick to Winston.
02:18:08 -!- Winston has changed nick to Sgeo|web.
02:29:49 <zzo38> Even if I read it online, I will not do so right now.
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02:31:04 <EOF> still sorting those logs?
02:31:38 <Sgeo|web> EOF, have you read Fine Structure?
02:31:54 <Sgeo|web> I don't know how trustworthy you are
02:32:20 <EOF> no i haven't
02:32:50 <EOF> i'll go through the wikipedia article :)
02:32:57 * pikhq declares Japanese rap "weird".
02:33:02 <alise> EOF: There isn't one! Ha!
02:33:19 * EOF seconds prior /m statement
02:34:00 <pikhq> http://bit.ly/8PRw6j I mean seriously, whaaat?
02:34:03 <EOF> http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldika_strukturo in Esperanto
02:34:42 <pikhq> EOF: Mia Esperanto malbonas. Japanalingvo?
02:34:43 <alise> pikhq: They're not even trying
02:35:27 <pikhq> alise: Would you expect them to be doing stereotypical urban black culture?
02:35:44 <alise> pikhq: I meant the actual rapping.
02:35:51 <zzo38> What I can do is make a file for TeX so that you can use UTF-8. It should not be too complicated to do. Simply to make all characters 128 to 255 active and then make table which character in a font corresponds to which character in a different font, that should do it
02:35:59 <alise> As far as I can make out he's just picking the shortest words with the easiest sounds to end every line with :P
02:36:04 <alise> Not that I can make out much of it at all, of course.
02:36:09 <alise> Not knowing Japanese and all.
02:36:42 <EOF> http://tinyurl.com/2amodvo
02:36:46 <pikhq> alise: What you're hearing there is just the normal Japanese syllable structure.
02:37:04 <alise> It's not very good
02:37:18 <pikhq> There *aren't* many sounds in Japanese.
02:37:31 <pikhq> And I think he got most of them in there.
02:37:37 <alise> <EOF> http://tinyurl.com/2amodvo
02:37:45 <alise> links to a let-me-google-that-for-you for "Child Pornography"
02:37:47 <Sgeo|web> pikhq, did you receive my msg's?
02:37:54 <alise> if anyone's too lazy to click. or is just not stupid enough to click links from EOF
02:38:21 <alise> pikhq: "Communication" You can't just fucking use an English word to rhyme
02:38:33 <alise> Nobody finishes English rhymes with a French word because they're too lazy :|
02:38:44 <alise> YOU USED "COMMUNICATION" AGAIN
02:38:51 <Sgeo|web> Maybe we could find a foreign word to rhyme with "orange"
02:39:02 <pikhq> alise: It's a perfectly ordinary and commonly used word in Japanese.
02:39:07 <alise> pikhq: Shut up. :|
02:39:48 <alise> Law of Fantasy: Any language you make up uses "ae" to excess.
02:39:54 <alise> "Ika Lgass Hunaethn" "ancient Aethn"
02:39:57 <alise> Sam Hughes, I am disappoint.
02:40:20 <pikhq> Most people suck at making plausible languages.
02:41:05 <pikhq> Even though for most uses of a made-up language (namely, handful of loan words) it would pretty much suffice to define a basic phonology and perhaps a handful of morphemes.
02:41:16 <Sgeo|web> Well, kind of difficult for the characters to ever learn the true pronunciation, I think
02:41:34 <alise> Sgeo|web: True pronunciation? What?
02:41:39 <pikhq> alise: Ignore him.
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02:41:51 <alise> I think maybe we are getting too lax with our Sgeo-does-not-talk-to-me-about-Fine-Structure-at-all rule :P
02:42:01 <pikhq> alise: No, the thing is, he's making shit up.
02:42:13 <alise> Wild mass guess fanon?
02:42:21 <pikhq> No, literally making shit up.
02:42:46 <alise> Has he divulged some insane theory to you in /msg or something :P
02:43:32 <EOF> anyone want to do some marathon programming?
02:44:05 <alise> pikhq: Is it just me, or has Sam Hughes actually gone to lengths to make "The Voice Of The World" in "The Nature of the Weapon" actually seem like it was translated?
02:44:10 <alise> Like, not flowing quite in the usual manner.
02:44:18 <alise> It may just be my brain making shit up itself.
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02:48:46 <alise> I wonder how on earth all this is going to tie together.
02:49:09 <alise> If I was Hughes, I'd be looking for a cop-out ending that saves me from having to explain everything round about now.
02:50:12 <alise> Well, I haven't, so elaborate.
02:50:40 <EOF> a while back a friend of mine learned PHP, the next month he was a pothead....
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02:57:57 <SgeoN1> Alise, tell me when you leave 1970-
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02:59:09 <SgeoN1> Because I'd get bored wth being updated every 1970- story you finish
02:59:17 <alise> SgeoN1: And why do you need to know...?
02:59:33 <alise> I'm on "The Big Idea", anyway.
03:04:28 <alise> Note to self: Yuen is fucking crazy.
03:05:30 <alise> Whether by doing that thing to that group every time interval, or by saying she does.
03:06:02 <alise> The former, seemingly.
03:07:04 <SgeoN1> I'd ask whether a certain story is still listed, but it would reveal a connection to that stry
03:07:50 <alise> SgeoN1: You could check.
03:07:56 <alise> SgeoN1: Uh, in 1970-? I can just paste the list.
03:08:12 <alise> How has HE survived?...
03:08:50 <SgeoN1> You think I spoiled you when I didnt
03:09:42 <alise> You said no presumably to the story.
03:09:46 <alise> I thought it was to that M-guy.
03:09:50 <alise> I think it no longer.
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03:10:07 <alise> I am 99% certain it's that guy, anyway, since he can do that thing he does.
03:10:23 <alise> (Fine Structure is a story about saying the most with very, very little.)
03:10:56 -!- distant_figure has joined.
03:11:14 <SgeoN1> Ask pikhq what I meant, I'm not retyping it
03:11:39 <alise> No; that would be a spoiler.
03:11:46 <zzo38> We should make up the plane 17 and more to "hyperastral planes", where the high bits of the code numbers can indicate properties and right-to-left and complex scripts and other things like that.
03:11:51 <alise> I am now leaving "1970-".
03:12:42 <zzo38> (Where plane 0 is normal plane, 1 to 16 is supplementary planes, and 17 and above is hyperastral.)
03:15:31 <SgeoN1> And so I'm back, from outer space (no relevance )
03:15:41 <SgeoN1> It's playing on the radio
03:18:42 <SgeoN1> Now there's a song associated with one of the crappier virtual worlds
03:18:49 <SgeoN1> Or, that I associate with
03:19:12 <zzo38> Planes 16777216 up to 3355431 shall be hyperastral planes.
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03:20:18 <SgeoN1> Not as crappy as imvu though
03:20:32 <alise> What? Which? Not that I care, but.
03:20:43 -!- distant_figure has joined.
03:21:52 <SgeoN1> Note that my metric for crwppiness behaves weird sometimes
03:25:37 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_video_games ;; Non-violent first-person shooter
03:26:24 <EOF> if(you != lying){printf ("you deserve a hug.\n");}
03:27:14 <alise> (if (abuses-fake-code-for-dialogue-in-that-way-once-more? EOF) (perish-burning-fire EOF))
03:27:30 <alise> At least make your fake code work properly in /theory/ or just don't do it at all or ... ever...
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03:29:13 <EOF> fine, do you want me ti pastebin the whole file?
03:29:38 <alise> EOF: There is no possible way "you != lying" makes coherent sense.
03:29:56 <alise> Sure, you can make that code compile and execute... and possibly even ask the user if they're lying, and make you = 1, and store it as a boolean in lying.
03:30:18 <alise> But it's still not what you were trying to express. And fake code is irritatingly pointless unless it has some code-related merit.
03:30:23 <alise> And yes I'm grumpy.
03:30:25 <SgeoN1> If you is an indication of truth or falsehood for some nutty reason
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03:30:35 <EOF> it's not elegant
03:30:51 <SgeoN1> I sort of see lying as a constant here
03:31:00 <alise> It's not RIGHT. You are-a person; lying is a status. A person cannot be a status belonging to them; it is meaningless. You have failed.
03:31:21 <alise> Therefore perishment.
03:31:44 * SgeoN1 attachés an iron chain with ball to EOF
03:31:44 <EOF> the program simply continues to execute
03:32:17 * SgeoN1 misread perishment as punishment
03:32:18 <EOF> life goes on, or ends...
03:32:29 <alise> SgeoN1: attachés? Really now?
03:32:46 <SgeoN1> I managed to typo an accent!
03:34:05 <EOF> what keyborad layout?
03:35:00 <EOF> it'd be easier to make this in java
03:35:08 <EOF> i was goinc for C
03:35:14 <Sgeo|web> Java poisoning is a terrible thing
03:35:35 -!- distant_figure has joined.
03:35:46 <EOF> java is (:-/
03:35:49 <Sgeo|web> Hell, even vaguely-C-like-family-language-poisoning is sad
03:36:14 <Sgeo|web> But sticking with that family of languages is poisonous
03:36:45 <EOF> C is all powerful
03:37:02 <Sgeo|web> Learn Haskell, or a Lisp, or Factor, or Smalltak (probably not Smalltalk, not different enough)
03:37:06 <EOF> omnipotent
03:37:19 * alise finds an error in Fine Structure
03:37:29 <alise> EOF: "uSUCK" -> obnoxious. Rabid C defending -> obnoxious.
03:37:32 <EOF> hence the esoteric channel
03:37:46 <Sgeo|web> It's a basic mental health thing
03:38:05 <Sgeo|web> Learning non-industry languages
03:38:16 <alise> Sgeo|web: "You're wife's maiden name" is the error.
03:38:23 <alise> I doubt EOF has anything to do with the industry.
03:38:45 <Sgeo|web> I should check that what I removed is actually the HD
03:38:48 * EOF removes SgeoN1's poorly attached ball and chain.
03:39:40 <alise> "sudo su" is extremely bad practice.
03:39:44 <alise> "sudo -s" is always preferable.
03:39:46 <EOF> echo "i am omnipotent"
03:39:53 <alise> Or "sudo -u user -s" for the case of switching to another user.
03:40:08 <EOF> killall rm
03:40:28 <EOF> kill -9 Sgeo|web
03:40:32 <alise> If Sgeo|web's command is executing, you are not facing a shell prompt.
03:40:45 <alise> That is "kill -9 Sgeo | web". That is unlikely to be what you want.
03:40:50 <alise> Furthermore, kill takes a process ID.
03:41:20 <EOF> what is your PID Sgeo|web ?
03:41:38 <alise> Does this inanity have a point? Humour can count as a point.
03:41:44 <EOF> you're shit, number 2
03:42:00 <alise> I mean, assuming that it will, eventually, evolve or progress into something that has a single element of humour -- that would be enough.
03:42:29 <EOF> that was mean
03:42:40 <alise> Killing people is generally considered mean.
03:42:40 <EOF> and i'm drunck
03:42:47 <EOF> and my friend is high
03:42:56 <EOF> and wer'e all idiots
03:43:01 <alise> What has your /friend's/ mental state got to do with anything?
03:43:21 -!- distant_figure has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:43:23 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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03:44:25 <Sgeo|web> If my house were a restaurant, it would be condemned
03:44:48 * EOF gets Sgeo|web a maid
03:45:45 * EOF gets Sgeo|web laid
03:46:10 * EOF sets up Sgeo|web 's RAID
03:46:48 <Sgeo|web> RAIDs probably still die when dropped
03:47:36 * EOF has overused rhyme and for that he will have dearly paid
03:47:57 * EOF is sorry for what he said
03:48:39 <Sgeo|web> I speak for all sane persons when I said that this is proof that English is demented
03:49:17 <alise> Sgeo|web: only shitty laptops fail like yours when dropped
03:49:33 <alise> my Toshiba has a habit of parking the drive heads when I so much as tilt it, and it's very effective.
03:49:40 -!- wareya has joined.
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03:50:10 <EOF> my laptop is new and crappy
03:50:29 <EOF> because it's a gateway(ewww)
03:50:37 <EOF> they overheat :/
03:51:38 -!- EOF has quit (Quit: Page closed).
03:51:45 * pikhq sets out to replace ALSA
03:51:57 <alise> -- Are all the guys with that name in this story the same fucking person?!
03:52:20 <alise> pikhq: With OSSv4?
03:52:23 * Sgeo|web forgot the details of that story
03:53:37 <alise> pikhq: Recommendable. BTW: Install XFCE's mixer if you don't have it. It can do OSSv4.
03:54:02 <alise> PCM11 -- for me, at least -- and the output of the first vmixer -- are the ones you want. Use ossxmix to turn everything up to full volume, first; watch out for application-specific volumes.
03:54:05 <alise> Sometimes they start out low.
03:54:13 <alise> Basically you want everything but your last output turned up to maximum.
03:54:16 <alise> Which is not the default.
03:54:18 <alise> "osstest" is useful.
03:54:20 <alise> Sgeo|web: It sucks.
03:55:12 <pikhq> Aaaaand there's not useful Gentoo packages. Fek.
03:55:23 <alise> pikhq: Yes, there must be.
03:55:31 <alise> http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/OSS4
03:55:36 <alise> Add the OSSv4 layman overlay:
03:55:37 <alise> layman -a oss-overlay
03:55:54 <pikhq> alise: The tarballs referred to in those ebuilds no longer exist.
03:56:04 <alise> pikhq: Give up now while you still have your sanity.
03:56:13 <alise> Recommended suffix to that sentence: "On Gentoo, that is."
03:56:29 <pikhq> I have three options: write my own ebuilds, give up, or switch distros.
03:56:47 <pikhq> And I don't know of any distros that suck less ATM.
03:56:48 <alise> You use freaking Gentoo. The last option is such a wonderful one, I'm surprised you're not going to take it twice.
03:56:56 <alise> pikhq: Well, true.
03:57:07 <alise> I use Ubuntu. Obviously, you won't. I don't blame you.
03:57:24 <pikhq> Well. Nix is *highly* tempting.
03:57:25 <alise> pikhq: Arch Linux is decent enough and OSSv4 is a single installation away -- but its community is as bad as Gentoo's used to be.
03:57:45 <alise> pikhq: You could try GoboLinux. For the fucking hell of it.
03:57:46 <Sgeo|web> I don't think I can be trusted to judge communities
03:57:55 <pikhq> alise: Are you familiar with Nix?
03:58:06 <alise> It's totally done wrongly, of course.
03:58:08 <Sgeo|web> Based on one person, I thought the whole LambdaMOO community was anti-documentatipn
03:58:18 <pikhq> Yeah, but less so than a lot of other things.
03:58:30 <alise> Actually Gobo Linux is like Nix when you don't try and make everything as much like Haskell as possible.
03:58:30 <pikhq> GoboLinux might be fun to try as well.
03:58:58 <alise> pikhq: And if you use GoboLinux/Étoilé, well, then you have OS X with Torvalds' name stuck on it. :P
03:59:10 <alise> And a rather hopeless set of applications...
03:59:27 <pikhq> GoboLinux only supports i686. DEAL BREAKER
03:59:37 <alise> pikhq: Oh, I wish tuomov's blog is still up; he had a *wonderful* post on package manager design.
03:59:55 <pikhq> alise: Know the old URL? archive.org
04:00:00 <alise> pikhq: robots.txt.
04:00:06 <pikhq> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
04:00:19 <alise> I'd email him, but, well, his abrasive personality is pretty well-known. :)
04:00:24 <alise> pikhq: It may be his server administrators.
04:00:30 <alise> pikhq: Hey, I know1
04:00:38 <Sgeo|web> alise: did you get to the description of Akker?
04:00:48 <pikhq> alise: Proprietary ATI drivers available?
04:00:50 <alise> Sgeo|web: I know he committed suicide. That's all; shut up.
04:00:56 <alise> pikhq: Only one way to find out, buddy!
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04:01:34 <pikhq> That's a "no, but some crazy bastard hacked the proprietary drivers to kinda-work on FreeBSD".
04:01:50 <alise> But who needs graphics?
04:01:53 <pikhq> If it weren't for that, shit, I'd be on a BSD tonight.
04:01:54 <alise> pikhq: I see only one solution.
04:02:17 <pikhq> alise: I'm not making my own distro.
04:02:23 <alise> Apex. (Alise + Pikhq + Unix = Apix, "ooh that's similar" -> Apex).
04:02:28 <alise> No, WE are! KITTEN HUGS FOR EVERYONE
04:03:26 <pikhq> Oh, yeah. Another thing that makes me hate most distros: they almost all suck at building packages sanely.
04:03:51 <pikhq> Gentoo is somehow the best at doing this. Everything else will *gleefully* allow things like undefined symbols in shipped binaries.
04:04:43 <pikhq> Debian's better about this than most, simply because they only change APIs every couple years or so.
04:05:02 <alise> AyeAyeAyeAyeAyePecccks
04:05:07 <pikhq> And Gentoo's better about this than most, because they change APIs daily and as such they actually have to deal with API breakage correctly.
04:05:57 <pikhq> And Slackware's better about this than most, because Patrick Volkerding is an all-around good guy.
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04:07:21 <alise> pikhq: You cannot hide from its necessity!
04:07:40 * pikhq shall install Nix in a VM to check it out
04:07:57 <alise> I even have the slogan
04:08:11 <alise> "The Apex of Linux Systems Design in A Downloadable TargzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzz"
04:08:24 <Sgeo|web> alise: are you at Sundown yet?
04:09:44 <alise> HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT LINK TO UNBELIEVABLE SCENES
04:09:48 <alise> Sgeo|web: I'm at it; I will not read it. I will leave.
04:09:57 <alise> pikhq: APEX. Is this having any effect on you?
04:10:25 <alise> Sgeo|web: I need to fucking sleep.
04:10:46 <alise> pikhq: Well, is i-- Apex
04:10:53 <zzo38> alise: Normal sleep is no good?
04:11:06 <alise> Normal sleep is excellent! I will now obtain it.
04:11:11 <alise> But only if pikhq Apex pikhq Apex
04:11:32 <alise> No? Alas. Goodnight.
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04:38:46 <zzo38> I found this list of videogame cliches: http://qntm.org/cliches
04:39:03 <zzo38> But I do think some of my games (and other games from other sources) are break some or all.
04:39:10 <zzo38> Let's think about "Super ASCII MZX Town" series.
04:39:24 <zzo38> Player one is blue and player two is red: Not applicable.
04:39:47 <zzo38> If it has a weak spot, it'll flash yellow when you shoot it: This game breaks this cliche.
04:41:36 <zzo38> Any broken machine of any kind will work perfectly once you have found the correct spare part. Moreover there is exactly one spare part hidden in the level. It is the correct one: There is one situation like this, but there is many spare parts (you need all of them). And they are found in a different level than the thing you have to fix.
04:42:54 <zzo38> An experienced gamer will automatically destroy crates/pots/boxes/rats to look for ammunition/health/magic/gold inside: In this game, shooting crates/pots/boxes/rats/monsters/yourself/etc is likely to only waste your ammunition. So use it only when absolutely necessary!
04:43:54 <zzo38> automatically looking for the red key to the red door: Most keys in this game do unlock the same color door. But there is one door which is different.
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04:45:49 <zzo38> Climbing a ladder is more life-threatening than engaging in a gun battle: Not applicable, there are no ladders.
04:47:13 <zzo38> If it's covered in fur, its a good guy. If it's covered in spikes, it's a bad guy: This game breaks this cliche. You cannot tell by what they are covered by. You often cannot tell by even seemingly obvious things!
04:51:30 <zzo38> Make the gamer think: Yes, to win the Super ASCII MZX Town series games, you do actually have to think about it. If you do what might appear obvious to you, you will quickly get stuck.
04:53:46 <zzo38> You might find a clue that seems obvious, but the obvious interpretation is not correct! You have to think about it sideways, too.
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05:03:39 <GreaseMonkey> does that mean that you have a platformer part where gravity is sideways
05:04:29 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: Not in the game I am discussing, but there are such things in other games I have invented in the past.
05:06:23 <zzo38> Good guys will only have first names, and bad guys will only have last names: My game does not follow this rule. (Also, I consider the terms "first name" and "last name" racist, but that's not the point.) However:
05:07:31 <zzo38> MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER (who happens to be a bad buy) asks for various things in order to take over the world (including a copy of the game on VHS). Eventually BIG_MONSTER (a good guy) reveal they know the other guy's real name, which happens to be Dave.
05:08:42 <zzo38> (Yes, I do mean a copy of the game that those characters (and your character) are in!)
05:11:32 <zzo38> I have found more lists of these cliches, and since this game series is not finished yet, I might decide to break some of these cliches in the future games in this series.
05:12:23 <zzo38> Every powerful character you attempt to seek aid from will first insist upon "testing your strength" in a battle to the death: No, but there is one character who fakes it!
05:13:22 <zzo38> No city will have more than two shops (Natural Monopoly Rule): In Part II, there is one shop that has many vendors. I do not know whether or not this counts.
05:15:02 <zzo38> When you're out wandering around the world, you must kill everything you meet: Not the case at all. In fact, attempting to kill everything you meet will just waste your ammunition, even if you are successful at first. (You willl also get less bonus points because you have less conserved ammunition)
05:20:01 <zzo38> Xenobiology Rule (predatory species of the world will include spiders, scorpions, snakes, wolf, dragon, etc): The game does not include all of them. Also, some individuals will be good to you instead, even of similar type than the other ones. Example: In one room there is two dragons. One will hurt you. The other is good and won't hurt you (they will ask for your autograph, though).
05:21:45 <zzo38> However, I might say one thing: The spiders/scorpions/dragons/etc that are good to you and don't hurt you can usually talk, in this game (but occasionally in a language which you cannot understand).
05:37:19 <zzo38> A note about the source-codes of this game: The codes are freely available for anyone to view, modify, and distribute. The codes do exactly what it seems, with no lies. However, reading them is more likely to deceive you than to help you to win this game (in most cases, not all)!
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05:55:43 <coppro> throne room + thief is so good
05:55:48 <GreaseMonkey> why, because "jump off a cliff" actually means "jump, off hits a with a cliff"
05:56:13 <zzo38> Throne room + thief? Give an example, perhaps
05:58:23 <zzo38> An ending sequence that's little more than a single line and a pixelly picture: Part I, just says you win (no picture). Part II, does have a picture (that has nothing else to do with the rest of the game), and other text, such as "Those responsible for the subtitles have been sacked". The things having to do with the game are the "you win" and the bonus points.
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06:21:35 <zzo38> How does that game work?
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06:26:21 <zzo38> Do you know The CGA Collection: The CGA Collection is a collection of games for DOS systems, all written in QBASIC, all using either 40x25 sixteen colors text mode or 320x200 four colors graphics mode. Sound effects are only PC speaker. Games include: BJACK, BUMPERSH, COLORSPI, ELEMENTA, DOWN, KNAR, HACKBITS, GIVEAWAY, MAKETEN, MINES, MUTCHNAM, PUZGEN, QCOOKIE, SKEDALS, SNAKEBIT, SOVMINGA, STARSTAK, STARWARS, and more.
06:27:18 <zzo38> The game MUTCHNAM has ten billion levels (really!).
06:28:17 <zzo38> The game KNAR has five thousand levels.
06:28:19 <myndzi> dominion, the board g ame?
06:28:53 <myndzi> imagine a CCG, but the game is to build your deck (instead of building it beforehand and the game is playing it)
06:29:22 <zzo38> myndzi: OK. Now I know a little bit.
06:29:46 <myndzi> have a little bit more ;)
06:29:52 <myndzi> i haven't played in a while so i forget the exact details
06:30:10 <myndzi> but basically you set up 10 stacks of cards in the center of the table, as well as stacks of property and money
06:30:16 <myndzi> (these vary in amount by the number of players)
06:30:17 <zzo38> myndzi: Have you ever invented any chess variants?
06:30:40 <myndzi> on your turn you draw cards, play them, and discard your whole hand
06:30:57 <myndzi> money cards let you buy things, property cards are useless but give your deck value, and other cards have CCG-ish things going on
06:31:13 <myndzi> that's about how it works then :P the 10 stacks are chosen from about 25 different cards in the basic set
06:31:17 <zzo38> Do you have to play all your cards, or some of them, or a certain number of them, and do you discard all of them regardless?
06:31:20 <myndzi> so you get a different game depending on what cards you play with
06:31:24 <myndzi> you discard them all regardless
06:31:30 <myndzi> so you go through your deck pretty quickly
06:31:34 <myndzi> and you can't "save up" money or something
06:31:42 <myndzi> it lends a focus towards building a deck that works well with itself
06:31:57 <myndzi> there are cards that can give you more actions, more money, more cards
06:32:05 <zzo38> Interesting idea.....
06:32:11 <myndzi> along with various other stuff, some cards that are sorta like "attacks"
06:32:19 <myndzi> though nothing with hit points
06:32:37 <myndzi> as for inventing a chess variant, ha, nah
06:33:20 <zzo38> I have invented a few chess variants, including Xorix Shogi, where the pieces powers are XORed by any piece it captures.
06:33:29 <zzo38> (Do you know about shogi? I have a set of shogi pieces and board)
06:33:30 <myndzi> though when i learned about navia dratp, i concocted a half-designed game that was influenced by that, settlers of catan, and uhh, whatever the hell that one OSS turn based strategy game is called
06:33:53 <zzo38> Navia Dratp? Yes I saw them playing it at the anime convention!
06:33:55 <myndzi> i never actually playtested it haha
06:34:08 <myndzi> but i did cut out a bunch of little hexes and sorta design a way to randomize the board!
06:34:16 <myndzi> but it wasn't very effective so i didn't pursue it
06:34:34 <myndzi> also lol @ xored powers
06:34:38 <myndzi> that's pretty interesting actually
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06:34:57 <myndzi> did you revise the movements or just keep them the same?
06:35:58 <zzo38> myndzi: They are mostly kept the same, but see: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSxorixshogi
06:38:20 <myndzi> it would be interesting to see what could become of designing the pieces' basic movements around the concept
06:39:04 <zzo38> myndzi: Yes it might be, perhaps you can try to make a new game based on a similar concept, if you want to.
06:39:15 <myndzi> what happens if a lance captures a pawn?
06:39:33 <myndzi> can it then skip a square? :P
06:39:43 <myndzi> (and also be unable to capture in that square)
06:39:43 <zzo38> Anything capturing a pawn in Xorix Shogi stay as they are.
06:39:59 <myndzi> fine, rook capturing a gold general
06:40:07 <zzo38> It says "All pieces can always move one space straight forward".
06:40:20 <myndzi> i was trying to concoct an example ;p
06:40:30 <myndzi> of how to xor "move one space" with "move any number of spaces"
06:40:46 <zzo38> See this page for some clarification: http://www.chessvariants.org/graphics.dir/xorixshogi/index.html
06:40:47 <myndzi> i read that rule but didn't put 2 and 2 together
06:42:20 <zzo38> Can you play mahjong? I played Washizu Mahjong at the anime convention (just once, though).
06:43:04 <myndzi> did you get your blood drawn? :P
06:43:58 <zzo38> myndzi: No, we didn't do that part. We didn't play for money either.
06:44:28 <zzo38> But we did use all the other rules such as the transparent tiles (some are opaque), and the teams.
06:45:10 <myndzi> haven't played mahjong yet, but i did watch akagi after someone told me about how the game worked
06:45:17 <myndzi> the transparent tiles thing was actually kinda interesting
06:45:24 <myndzi> i am having trouble understanding the graphics on the page you linked
06:45:36 <quintopia> without having to read up, what's going on here?
06:45:38 <myndzi> presumably a 'leap' is a one space movement?
06:45:44 <myndzi> and a ride is 2 or more
06:46:00 <myndzi> but the images for 0 and 1 are confusing
06:46:09 <myndzi> quintopia: just talking about board games and variants
06:46:29 <myndzi> zzo38: nevermind, it just occurred to me
06:46:34 <zzo38> Yes, leaps mean one space
06:46:37 <zzo38> And ride is two or more
06:46:45 <myndzi> it's a bit counterintuitive to have the icons not drawn in the same place every time
06:47:20 <zzo38> I did not draw the icons. I wrote the rules to the game, and then Fergus Duniho made the icons for the pieces.
06:47:47 <myndzi> it's still a bit counterintuitive seeming at first :P
06:48:41 <myndzi> i thought i had a clever way to implement that game with physical pieces
06:49:00 <myndzi> but it wouldn't let you keep the powers of captured pieces
06:49:52 <zzo38> I also invented a chess variant which is extremely unlike chess, it uses a one-dimensional board with 72 cells, unequal armies, 12 kinds of pieces, and no rule of "check"; yet, it is exactly the same as chess.
06:52:11 <zzo38> One of the 12 kind of pieces is a neutral kind that belongs to neither player. There are a few kinds of pieces that cannot move, and pieces which change the first time they move, pieces which cause other pieces to change.....
06:52:41 <zzo38> It might seem to be entirely different from chess, but, actually, it is exactly the same as chess!!
06:53:10 <zzo38> Here are the rules in case you want to read it: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSeeeeeeeeeeeeee
06:58:19 <myndzi> ha, that's sorta cheating
06:58:30 <myndzi> it's not REALLY one dimensional ;p
07:00:20 <zzo38> Higher dimensional games can be mapped onto one dimensional boards, and then indicate everything in one dimensional terms.
07:03:22 * quintopia challenges myndzi to an m,n,o,p,q,r,k game
07:03:23 * myndzi challenges quintopia to an m,n,o,p,q,r,k game
07:03:41 <quintopia> damn you and your partially scriptedness!
07:04:02 <myndzi> i don't know what this m,n,o,p,q,r,k is
07:04:24 <myndzi> also: i try so hard to tempt people to abuse that script by making it obvious but to no avail!
07:05:50 <zzo38> The game GIVEAWAY in The CGA Collection is also a chess variant. There are 26 kind of pieces. It is a single-player game, but there are opponent pieces as well, but the opponent pieces have a fixed rule for what they have to do (sort of like the rule in blackjack that the dealer has a fixed rule to play).
07:06:45 <zzo38> If you can capture, you must capture, otherwise you can make a non-capturing move. Opponent's pieces on opponent's turn make all possible captures simultaneously. If you have no legal move or if opponent's pieces are unable to make a capture, then you lose. If you run out of your own pieces, then you win.
07:07:27 <quintopia> that sounds like a really weird game
07:07:55 <zzo38> Rules for capturing are just like in normal chess.
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07:08:48 <zzo38> There is a level file containing the boards (which can be of any size), and it is also possible to create your own levels, that you might even ask someone else to solve.
07:09:33 <quintopia> zzo38: what are the rules for the other side?
07:10:40 <zzo38> quintopia: The rules for opponent's pieces are that on opponent's turn, opponent's pieces make all possible captures simultaneously. If a piece can capture multiple other pieces, copies are created in all of those positions. If multiple opponent pieces of different kind try to move to the same position, it turns into a question mark, which cannot move or capture at all.
07:12:25 <quintopia> zzo38: so the opponent pieces do not move if they cannot caputre, or if it is not clear which piece should do the capturing?
07:13:18 <zzo38> quintopia: No, if multiple opponent's pieces can do the capturing, they *all* do, simultaneously, and if they are not all of the same kind, they turn into a question mark.
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07:13:39 <zzo38> For your own pieces, you can make only one move (or capture) each turn, no simultaneous moves allowed.
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07:14:11 <zzo38> If there are no possible ways that the opponent's pieces can capture any of your own pieces, then you lose the game.
07:14:33 <quintopia> zzo38: what does a question mark do when it forms?
07:15:19 <zzo38> quintopia: It can be captured. It is just a piece with no moves.
07:16:55 <Ilari> quintopia: Color Graphics Adapter?
07:17:33 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, it is Color Graphics Adapter.
07:18:50 <zzo38> quintopia: Why what? Why does CGA stand for that?
07:19:03 * pikhq tried to watch Repo! The Genetic Opera today. The music was terrible.
07:19:30 <quintopia> zzo38: no i mean, why does somethign named that have a collection of games?
07:19:39 <pikhq> Bad operatic music is cringe-inducing. Absolutely, positively cringe-inducing.
07:20:56 <zzo38> quintopia: Rather, the collection of the games has the title "The CGA Collection", and they all have certain things in common, one of them being that all of them use either 40x25 text mode with sixteen colors, or 320x200 graphics mode with four colors.
07:21:58 <quintopia> zzo38: is CGA a company? did they develop these games?
07:22:28 <zzo38> quintopia: No. CGA is just the name of the graphics adapter. I programmed all of these games myself.
07:24:03 <zzo38> I did not actually *invent* all of the games myself, though, but I did invent some, and even some of the ones that I did not invent, these implementations have some extra features or something else.
07:24:25 <zzo38> All the sound/music in the SKEDALS game is Bohlen-Pierce.
07:26:32 <zzo38> And I did in fact invent a game with ten billion levels.
07:26:59 <quintopia> so these games only work if you have said graphics adapter?
07:27:51 <zzo38> quintopia: No, modern graphics adapters can usually emulate the CGA. And even if they don't, you can use DOSBOX or something like that.
07:28:16 <zzo38> (CGA is a very old graphics adapter.)
07:28:48 <quintopia> so one needs dosbox or some other kind of dos emulator then?
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07:29:35 <zzo38> Yes, to run on Linux you do need a DOS emulator.
07:38:43 <zzo38> The COLORSPI game is a sort of puzzle game and action game. Your piece is the spider. There are green backgrounds and black backgrounds, and then there are walls. There are also seven colors of balls and seven colors of webs. And there is a time limit!
07:39:29 <zzo38> If a ball touches a spider, touches a web of a different color than the ball, or touches another ball, then you lose.
07:40:02 <zzo38> Webs of different colors are not allowed to cross each other.
07:43:20 <zzo38> You have limited number of webs of each color, at each level. Some colors of webs can be cut and some cannot be cut.
07:44:09 <zzo38> If a ball touches a web of the same color of the ball, the ball remains there (you can still lose if other balls collide with it), and it is safe for a spider to touch it and then it is removed. Once all balls are removed in this way, the goal apperas.
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07:44:49 <zzo38> You have to reach the goal also within the time limit, and sometimes you might have to make sure to plan ahead correctly such that you *can* reach the goal! (Some levels have no balls, in which case the goal is visible from the start.)
07:45:30 <zzo38> Webs can be created on black backgrounds only (and it is the only way for a spider to move across black backgrounds). Green backgrounds can contain no webs but can be moved across freely.
07:45:51 <zzo38> There are also a few other kind of objects, some of which can be pushed, and which work only on green backgrounds.
07:46:49 <zzo38> Do you like this idea?
07:48:41 <zzo38> quintopia: Just guess, perhaps? Or make question/comment?
07:49:19 <GreaseMonkey> <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, it is Color Graphics Adapter. <-- s/Adapter/Array/
07:49:42 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: No, it is "Adapter". VGA is Video Graphics Array.
07:51:03 <zzo38> Boxes and slanted lines can be pushed around on green areas (they cannot be pushed into black space, it is like there is a wall there). Balls touching boxes cause you to lose. Balls touching slanted lines are deflected.
07:51:33 <zzo38> And then, there is one kind of piece which can be pushed like the box, except that it can be pushed into a black space to make it green.
07:52:04 <zzo38> And there is a sign that changes into a wall after anything passes over it.
07:53:46 <zzo38> This is how the game works!
07:55:04 <quintopia> if i ever get a chance to try the game out, i'll let you know if it's any good
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08:29:45 <quintopia> meh. you're just a userscript engine for firefox. i'm looking for people.
08:33:33 <quintopia> 10:30 is 7 hours ahead of me, which doesn't seem quite far enough to be new zealand
08:33:43 <quintopia> in fact, i though india was 7.5 hours ahead
08:34:28 <quintopia> bah, international channels should all have timezone-bots.
08:37:52 <olsner> late? it's early, I just got up
08:39:19 <fizzie> Yes, but I thought we were using those 2-char country codes.
08:40:10 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.png -- now with more zzo38, whose weirdness unfortunately makes other people get more overlappy than in esomapn.png.
08:41:57 <quintopia> is this a map of when peoples are in this channel?
08:43:57 <fizzie> No, it's a map of two first PCA components out of 60 writing-style related features.
08:45:08 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png -- that has some of the more interesting features.
08:45:41 <fizzie> I have to leave in ten minutes and get dressed before that, so don't have time for replotting right now, otherwise yes.
08:46:11 <quintopia> is capitalization at beginning of sentences a feature?
08:46:18 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test12.png -- this one is channel activity per time-of-day (Finnish time).
08:46:49 <quintopia> looks about like every channel i've been in
08:47:07 <fizzie> It might be, I'm not sure. The feature set was originally designed for book author classification though, and everything's capitalized properly there.
08:47:29 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test12r.png -- same thing normalized.
08:47:36 <fizzie> Now I really must be going.
08:48:20 <quintopia> alise posts a third of the messages pretty much around the clock
08:54:42 <fizzie> Yeah, like the saying goes, "evil never sleeps".
08:55:38 <quintopia> hey fizzie are you familiar at all with entscheidungsproblem?
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09:29:49 <quintopia> man, people that take their foul moods out on other people suck
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11:18:29 <Vorpal> alise, fizzie, oerjan: http://sprunge.us/CdUU
11:19:37 <quintopia> what's the purpose of doing that anyway?
11:19:48 <quintopia> does he want his lines in the logs to be easier to find?
11:20:27 <Vorpal> quintopia, no, that is him saying stuff like "oerjan swats alise -----###" (he uses his flyswatter)
11:20:35 <Vorpal> I guess it is some kind of in-joke .P
11:20:59 <quintopia> i would never have recognized that as a flyswatter
11:25:00 <Vorpal> quintopia, what about ===\__/ then?
11:27:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, again an in-joke :P
11:29:09 <quintopia> let's see who laughs when i hit HIM with a pan.
11:29:42 <Vorpal> quintopia, ah but then you would have to steal it or get him to lend it to you (since there is only one pan)
11:30:41 <quintopia> Vorpal: then what was that you just posted above? did you, *gasp* MAKE YOUR OWN PAN?
11:31:01 <Vorpal> quintopia, no it was not in a /me, so it didn't count
11:31:13 <Vorpal> thus I was quoting him
11:31:26 <Vorpal> so two reasons it didn't count
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11:34:07 <Vorpal> quintopia, he is not in the channel atm, how would that be possible?
11:35:10 <quintopia> if he's not here, then he's not paying attention to his virtual pan
11:35:17 <quintopia> also, you don't have to highlight me every few lines
11:36:28 <Vorpal> ah indeed, a bad habit
11:36:36 <Vorpal> I'm used to high traffic channels
11:54:22 <Vorpal> oerjan is from Norway. I'm from Sweden
11:54:36 <Vorpal> and there are quite a few from .fi (plus two more from .se)
11:56:08 <quintopia> hard to keep you norsemen straight
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12:00:34 <FireFly> Quite a few more than two more swedes, I think
12:33:15 <Vorpal> FireFly, I only know of you and olsner apart from me?
12:33:47 <FireFly> BeholdMyGlory is here from time to time, also MigoMipo
12:33:52 <FireFly> They're not here atm though
12:52:17 <Vorpal> sqlite> select * from logs where serial > 869850 and serial < 869870;
12:52:17 <Vorpal> 869851|2009-10-25 01:02:32|FireFly|||5|"Later"
12:52:17 <Vorpal> 869852|2009-10-25 00:04:14|oerjan|||0|eek backwards time travel!
12:52:48 <olsner> hmm, time to go vote then
12:53:50 <Vorpal> olsner, Jag förtidsröstade
12:53:58 <Vorpal> FireFly, I hope you vote too.
12:55:07 <olsner> after voting, back to scheme in haskell in 48h
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13:43:27 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapf.png -- okay, that's a lot less pretty sight. (Here each x represents 2000 consecutive messages, and it's again PCA dims 1/2 out of the same features as before.)
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13:45:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, does python have any built in class or such for a circular buffer?
13:45:45 <Vorpal> I need to keep some sort of sliding window when matching up own/clog
13:45:54 <Vorpal> to handle out order issues
13:46:17 <alise> You're not saying "yarr" enough.
13:47:21 <Vorpal> alise, oh is it that day today?
13:47:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't think there is a built-in type for that, but there's the "buffer" object that can represent a slice out of an array.
13:47:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, not sure I want to put the entire db into an array :P
13:49:13 <alise> Vorpal: Indeed; also, you are marked as away.
13:50:03 <fizzie> There's the queue class, but it's more about being thread-safely synchronized. (You could use two queues and pop off the end all the messages that are older than your threshold.
13:50:33 <fizzie> Oh, right, there's a deque in "collections".
13:51:22 <fizzie> You can even specify a maximum length to the deque and it will automatically drop items from one end when you put new stuff into the other.
13:53:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes that seems usable
13:58:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wrote up some code to create a number of known matching points btw
13:58:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm sure there is a better way than http://sprunge.us/BUEj but it seems to work
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14:02:58 <fizzie> Sounds like someone (accidentally or not) repeating his message within a short period of time would be a bit problematic for completely unconstrained matching; I guess taking the earliest match always and then removing it from consideration for later ones would handle that, though.
14:04:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes indeed, but that code was just to find known good pairs, and I first got dups but then I got like every ":D" matched up to every other :D within 1 minute
14:04:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, the length(body) > 10 seems to have fixed
14:04:30 <Vorpal> and there were no other dup pairs there
14:04:54 <fizzie> I guess it is not so often someone repeats a very long message completely exactly.
14:04:57 <fizzie> I guess it is not so often someone repeats a very long message completely exactly.
14:05:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, and indeed it isn't and it would as far as I can tell show up twice there
14:06:45 <alise> Vorpal: your /msg notifications suck :)
14:07:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, does python have a two-way dict?
14:07:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, like equally fast to look up by key and value
14:07:12 <alise> Vorpal: does a buffer just appear silently or something
14:07:19 <alise> <Vorpal> fizzie, does python have a two-way dict? ;; no but trivial to code one
14:07:43 <Vorpal> alise, yeah, but I hoped to avoid that work, and also if it had it, doing the two-dict solution would be a bad case of NIH
14:07:53 <alise> as far as i know, there is no package for it.
14:07:55 <alise> writing code is not NIH.
14:09:03 <alise> class BiDict(object):
14:09:03 <alise> def __init__(self, to, fro):
14:10:22 <fizzie> I assume you might want to have something where a single call would add in both dicts.
14:11:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, I checked the values with a simple select serial,tstamp,body from irc.logs where body in (select body from irc.logs where serial in ( < long list here > )) order by body; and the only "dupe" was "my brain hurts" from 2007 and 2009, thus not within the critical interval :P
14:12:37 <Vorpal> and that was said by different persons
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14:13:24 <alise> fizzie: Vorpal: what would it take to convince you two to give me your full #esoteric logs sometime?
14:13:30 <alise> see, obviously botte has to have the most complete logs ever
14:13:37 <alise> so i need to merge all of them. clearly.
14:14:15 <Vorpal> alise, a lot, since there could be private info in them, due to being xchat logs for several years
14:14:23 <Vorpal> so stuff like /msg nickserv went to log of current window
14:14:40 <alise> Vorpal: Obviously, I would want those filtered out. :P
14:15:04 <Vorpal> alise, thus: never going to happen. And due to the ambiguity discussed before with * I do not trust filtering. Like "* You have been invited to #secret-channel"
14:15:27 <Vorpal> alise, I could perhaps filter only join/part/quit/msg, and leave out all CTCP ACTION or such
14:15:35 <Vorpal> that should be reasonably safe
14:15:38 <alise> I don't mind all /mes of that form being filtered out. Also, knowing the name of a secret channel is hardling devastating.
14:15:55 <fizzie> Oh, I'm very cheap, I think I could part with my logs with just a five- or six-digit sum of euros.
14:15:59 <alise> Vorpal: Hmm. Well, if I can get logs of fizzie I suppose I could use his to merge in /mes.
14:16:12 <alise> fizzie: Don't you see it's for science?
14:16:25 <Vorpal> alise, clog is reasonably complete
14:16:36 <alise> Vorpal: clog has quite regular outages.
14:16:44 <Vorpal> also it was fun writing parsing for znc buffer playback
14:16:44 <alise> there are huge swathes of logs missing in which good discussion has taken place
14:16:57 <alise> furthermore, its timechanges are problematic
14:16:57 <Vorpal> however due to the +- thing at start of messages it is sometimes ambig
14:17:12 <Vorpal> like when my irc client didn't yet know it was in that prefix-mode
14:17:21 <Vorpal> or when we were not yet in it
14:17:21 <fizzie> I can dump something out from the postgres db, after some sanity checks; I think they should be mostly safe.
14:17:29 <Vorpal> for example I know a few will be incorrectly parsed
14:17:59 <Vorpal> like <foo> [10:11:12] +--[>+ ...
14:18:03 <Vorpal> I saw a few such cases
14:18:24 <alise> fizzie: The postgres DB is clog logs, is it not?
14:18:25 <Vorpal> where it is ambig if it is + as in "id with services" or not
14:18:44 <Vorpal> alise, no it's his personal logs
14:19:19 <alise> fizzie: I'm not sure how dumping a Postgres DB is any less safe than simply running the logs through the filter that got them in there in the first place?
14:19:31 <Vorpal> alise, anyway logs from late yesterday and onwards should be reasonably simple to filter
14:20:01 <alise> <zzo38> [...] (Also, I consider the terms "first name" and "last name" racist, but that's not the point.) [...]
14:22:52 <alise> Presumably because in a lot of, for example, Asian cultures, the "last" name is listed first.
14:23:22 <alise> "Kim Jong-Il" is actually "Jong-Il Kim" in our ordering.
14:24:12 <Vorpal> class deque(__builtin__.object)
14:24:12 <Vorpal> | deque(iterable[, maxlen]) --> deque object
14:24:24 <Vorpal> and nowhere can I find docs what iterable does exactly
14:24:47 <Vorpal> alise, not in help(collections.deque) at least?
14:24:59 <alise> http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=iterable+python
14:25:01 <alise> 5. Built-in Types — Python v2.7 documentation
14:25:02 <alise> Python defines several iterator objects to support iteration over general and specific sequence types, dictionaries, and other more specialized forms. ...
14:25:03 <alise> PEP 234 -- Iterators - Python
14:25:03 <alise> 30 Jan 2001 ... (Due to a misunderstanding in the original text of this PEP, in Python 2.2, all iterator types implemented a next() method that was ...
14:26:13 <fizzie> alise: Because the filter can only output to postgres at the moment, so it's easier to dump. No safer, of course.
14:26:20 <fizzie> Anyway, busy with other stuff now.
14:27:08 <Vorpal> class collections.deque([iterable[, maxlen]])¶
14:27:09 <Vorpal> Returns a new deque object initialized left-to-right (using append()) with data from iterable. If iterable is not specified, the new deque is empty.
14:27:19 <Vorpal> alise, a lot more helpful than the built in help
14:27:48 <alise> Vorpal: the built-in help is not documentation
14:27:51 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, I presume deque(None,10) should work... (I need the second parameter, but not the first)
14:27:52 <alise> it is a quick reference tool
14:28:01 <alise> the actual documentation, i.e. the manual, is the only official reference.
14:28:09 <alise> Vorpal: deque(maxlen=10)
14:29:02 <alise> 00:40:10 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.png -- now with more zzo38, whose weirdness unfortunately makes other people get more overlappy than in esomapn.png.
14:29:12 <alise> * Everyone backs away slowly from zzo38
14:29:32 <alise> I have collided with the GregorR nebula.
14:29:43 <alise> It looks like everyone's being time dilated! NO! THE TACHYONS!
14:30:21 <alise> "The hull is collapsing!" "Send out a message on all channels! Even that secret channel we never use and that serviced as a deus ex machina three episodes ago! ZZO38--IS--A--BLACK--HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO[static]"
14:30:45 <alise> Thank you, thank you, no need to crowd, you can stop clapping now.
14:31:48 <alise> 00:47:51 <quintopia> agagaga
14:31:49 <alise> 00:48:20 <quintopia> alise posts a third of the messages pretty much around the clock
14:31:49 <alise> 00:48:26 <quintopia> just as i would have guessed
14:31:55 <alise> And almost half the messages in total... mwahahaha.
14:33:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, you are about as far out as zzo (in a different direction though)
14:34:02 <alise> Less tight though.
14:34:11 <alise> Vorpal: No, not true.
14:34:14 <alise> fizzie is quite close to cpressey.
14:34:19 <alise> zzo38 is much further away from everyone else.
14:34:33 <alise> I think fizzie's position may be largely due to zzo38 pushing him away.
14:34:49 <Vorpal> can I remove arbitrary values in the middle of a dequeue
14:35:15 <alise> So: no. Not unless Python's doing something screwy.
14:35:18 <alise> del q[n] might work.
14:35:22 <alise> But I doubt it has q[n].
14:35:32 <alise> Actually it wouldn't be del q[n].
14:35:36 <alise> More like q.remove_at(n) or something.
14:35:53 <Vorpal> I have an algorithm pretty much worked out but the sliding window data data type needs to act as a queue but with easy removing in the middle (when we match up an out of order element)
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14:36:28 <Vorpal> | D.remove(value) -- remove first occurrence of value.
14:37:10 <alise> 04:53:50 <Vorpal> olsner, Jag förtidsröstade
14:37:16 <alise> why do you randomly talk in swedish to the swedes
14:37:20 <alise> (also, before you say anything, blame clog)
14:37:52 <Vorpal> alise, because I don't have a clue what it is called in English
14:37:58 <Vorpal> pre-vote sounds so strange
14:38:12 <alise> "I voted early", just like Google translates it.
14:38:45 <olsner> well, it's a completely different procedure though
14:39:21 <olsner> it's not just voting earlier, it's making your vote before the actual voting starts in a special way
14:39:41 <Vorpal> alise, so the translation fails to convey the correct info
14:40:04 <alise> It's still called that.
14:40:16 <alise> "I early voted", if you're willing to trade flow with a bit more meaning.
14:40:21 <alise> early-voted, maybe.
14:40:30 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_voting
14:40:32 <alise> We just call it voting early, though.
14:40:39 <alise> You silly overly-precise Swedes.
14:41:12 <Vorpal> actually hm ordereddict with size limit might work better
14:41:16 <Vorpal> could emulate that manually
14:52:06 <alise> Vorpal: make a fucking class.
14:57:51 <Vorpal> alise, yeah been doing that for several minutes
14:58:22 <Vorpal> alise, what is the python format spec thingy for tuples? Like %s or %d for string/integer
14:58:34 <alise> You should just use %s.
14:58:45 <alise> Vorpal: even for %d, %s is usually used
14:58:49 <alise> Or %r, I guess, for __repr__.
14:58:52 <alise> But for tuples that's the same.
14:59:20 <Vorpal> "TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting"? huh
14:59:39 <alise> i think i know what's wrong
14:59:41 <alise> but i need to see the line
14:59:43 <Vorpal> def dump_lines(ol, cl):
14:59:47 <Deewiant> If you have only one tuple it'll try to use its contents
14:59:57 <alise> Vorpal: for debug just use + :P
15:00:02 <alise> print 'Own: ' + ol
15:00:05 <alise> print 'Clog: ' + cl
15:00:33 <Vorpal> alise, well ol is a tuple containing a datetime object amongst other things
15:00:38 <Vorpal> would + magically handle that?
15:00:50 <alise> it would do str(ol) which == repr(ol)
15:00:59 <Vorpal> ugh %s with datetime formats non-nicely, oh well
15:01:12 <alise> it formats non-nicely with everything
15:02:33 <alise> everything formats non-nicely with repr()
15:02:50 <alise> what you need is an object inspector!
15:03:02 <alise> [Suddenly, your monitor goes blank. BONG! "Welcome to aliseOS."]
15:06:07 <Vorpal> alise, you mean like in genera?
15:06:23 <alise> Or in aliseOS, which has something like that but SO MUCH BETTER.
15:07:20 <Vorpal> hm it got the first 313 events by the fast simplistic algorithm (which just matches up line pairs from the db), now to enable the more complex sliding window one
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15:19:27 <Sgeo|web> I really don't want to eat breakfast in this house
15:24:49 <Sgeo|web> The flies (or maybe that's the wrong term)...
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15:33:29 <ais523> update on my compression algo: it's better than bzip2 but almost certainly worse than lzma, except on very repetitive files
15:33:35 <ais523> and thus it doesn't have much of a reason to exist
15:37:26 <Sgeo|web> That's a good reason for your algo to exist
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15:39:05 <Sgeo|web> I feel like I asked a stupid question
15:40:58 <zzo38> I do not completely understand what the http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.pnghttp://zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.png is plotting, it says "map of two first PCA components out of 60 writing-style related features" but I do not know what that means.
15:41:54 <nooga> alise: start writing aliseOS plz
15:42:21 <alise> nooga: Can I have a research grant?
15:42:51 <alise> Sgeo|web: LZMA is not patented.
15:42:55 <alise> ais523: you could TWEAK IT!!!11
15:43:11 <alise> ais523: also, it may be significantly faster than LZMA
15:43:15 <alise> which would be a very good idea
15:43:29 <ais523> and most of the tweaks slowed it down, but it doesn't lose too much to remove most of them
15:43:40 <alise> http://snarxiv.org/vs-arxiv/ ;; Which paper title is real, which is rubbish?
15:43:50 <alise> The real papers are just so ridiculous.
15:43:56 <alise> (http://snarxiv.org/ random stream of rubbish)
15:44:16 <ais523> without the weird tweaking, it's O(n log n) with relatively low constant factors
15:44:28 <alise> ais523: that sounds pretty good
15:44:34 <alise> what's the real-time speeds you're getting?
15:44:35 <ais523> also, it heapsorts linked lists. twice
15:44:35 <zzo38> Like, in that graph, what is the X axis mean, what does the Y axis mean, and what does everything else mean?
15:44:43 <alise> ais523: er -- not mergesort?
15:44:45 <ais523> alise: I'm not sure, because it's overloaded with slow tweaks atm
15:44:57 <alise> ais523: plug in a mergesort :P
15:44:58 <ais523> alise: well, I needed to implement a priority queue
15:45:08 <alise> low-hanging fruit etc.
15:45:15 <ais523> and because I had the priority queue code already, it was trivial to make it into a heapsort
15:45:33 <ais523> and heapsort and mergesort are equally fast in terms of computational order, heapsort often has better performance in practice
15:46:31 <alise> ais523: on linked lists?
15:46:36 <alise> that may be true for arrays
15:46:52 <ais523> I'm not sure about on linked lists
15:47:07 <alise> it's not like mergesort isn't a trivial algorithm
15:47:24 <ais523> heapsort isn't that bad either
15:47:42 <alise> i'm trying to help you find a niche for your admittedly-now-useless algorithm, stop complaining
15:47:45 <ais523> one advantage of the heapsort is that the natural expression of it is iterative rather than recursive
15:48:06 <ais523> oh, decompression's O(n), which is nice
15:48:14 <ais523> but I think lzma decompresses pretty fast too
15:48:18 <alise> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/algorithms/listsort.html has a complete pseudocode mergesort that, though i haven't read it, seems to be optimised for doing it iteratively on a linked list
15:48:33 <alise> ais523: how much more %s of compression do you get from the slow tweaks?
15:48:36 <zzo38> Do you know quantum bogosort? The algorithm is this: [1] Arrange the files at random. [2] If it is sorted, stop. [3] If it is not sorted, destroy the entire universe.
15:48:50 <alise> "A perl script com piles the gram mar file into OCaml code (snarxiv.ml):" ;; Dear god.
15:48:57 <alise> *compiles *grammar; dunno why that happened.
15:49:09 <alise> Oh, ­ hyphens, I think.
15:49:13 <ais523> alise: less than 1%, which is what's annoying me so much
15:49:18 <ais523> they looked really good on paper
15:49:36 <alise> ais523: then get rid of them, stick a mergesort in, and rewrite it in C if it isn't already
15:49:50 <ais523> why would I write it in Java
15:50:02 <alise> dunno, you seem to be using the language for things, inexplicably
15:50:05 <ais523> the main reason it's in C is because I was doing a bunch of pointer manipulation
15:50:16 <ais523> alise: well, it's my job, that's a reason to be familiar with it
15:50:22 <ais523> and I only have one major project in Java
15:50:26 <alise> ha, from the same guy as snarXiv: http://davidsd.org/theorem/
15:50:28 <zzo38> Write it in Enhanced CWEB, and then make a book of it.
15:50:29 <alise> random theorem generator
15:50:43 <alise> zzo38: I don't think this compressor is begging to be a book...
15:51:27 <ais523> my roguelike dynamic routing algorithm is much more deserving of a paper, because that one's actually useful
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15:51:34 <ais523> I should write it down mathematically sometime
15:52:15 <zzo38> ais523: Then write that roguelike algorithm in Enhanced CWEB and make *that* one a book.
15:52:23 <alise> but Enhanced CWEB is utterly insane...
15:52:39 <zzo38> (You can mix C codes with normal mathematical equations as well, if it is necessary)
15:53:17 <zzo38> alise: You think it is insane? Maybe it is insane but I find it useful. I like to use it to write C programs with.
15:53:28 <ais523> what I actually did with the routing algo was to make it into a YouTube video
15:53:29 <ais523> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udCNcoIfYIc
15:53:41 <alise> ais523: YouTube, the future of mathematical journals.
15:53:44 * ais523 waits for alise to not believe me because it's so far out of character for me
15:53:54 <alise> I actually have Flash so I checked.
15:54:02 <alise> ais523: Why doesn't TAEB play with DECgraphics and colours? Sheesh!
15:54:11 <zzo38> A video? It would be better as a text, isn't it?
15:54:15 <ais523> it does play with colors
15:54:19 <ais523> but it doesn't show them on its debug screen
15:54:30 <ais523> because colors are used for something else there
15:54:35 <alise> zzo38: he /could/ have published a termcast, but...
15:54:58 <alise> ais523: TAEB can think faster and better than me, I feel kind of inadequate
15:55:09 <alise> I have a strong urge to eliminate the competition.
15:55:12 <ais523> it's actually slower than most humans
15:55:21 <alise> Well gee, that just makes me feel even better.
15:55:48 <zzo38> alise: Even as a termcast or ttyrec, I think a paper could better explain it, especially if you wrote it in Enhanced CWEB (but even a normal text could do).
15:56:05 <alise> zzo38: It's just a video of it in action!!
15:56:08 <ais523> well, I made the video by pointing a screen capture program at ipbt
15:56:11 <alise> ais523: So what sense of routing is being used here?
15:56:16 <alise> I'm not entirely sure what you coded.
15:56:33 <ais523> alise: it's a straightforward shortest-path routing algorithm
15:56:46 <alise> "The terminal emulator used is the one from the PuTTY SSH client (simply because that's the one whose API I was most familiar with)." ;; conveniently not mentioning he wrote it
15:56:59 <alise> ais523: what's special about it -- works on terrain you don't entirely know?
15:57:04 <ais523> but it's caching a) between turns, even if the goal and the player have moved; b) allowing for changes in the map
15:57:18 <ais523> so it's much faster than running Dijkstra or A* on the sort of workloads TAEB::AI::Player needs
15:57:19 <alise> so is Planar better than main TAEB yet?
15:57:55 <ais523> no in terms of raw score, yes in most other respects
15:57:55 <ais523> but I haven't worked on it for over a year now
15:57:57 <ais523> btw, when the whole map flashes green or blue, it's using a different algo
15:58:10 <alise> also, I find your YouTube video inadequate; re-upload it with at least 1080p resolution!
15:58:26 <ais523> either because there are monsters around, which change the caches too quickly for them to be useful
15:58:50 <ais523> or because there's just been a major update and it's faster to recalculate from scratch than to diff
15:58:51 <alise> ais523: does TAEB ever use gX?
15:59:17 <ais523> no, but it uses travel when moving four or more spaces in known terrain
15:59:25 <alise> also, what level of the dungeon is this? the display doesn't say
15:59:29 <alise> unless D:2D means something
16:00:52 <alise> http://undergrad.davidsd.org/theorem/applications.html ;; haha (the author of the random theorem generator getting a princeton student to nod his head along to the rubbish)
16:02:18 <alise> ais523: are you a licensed NIH Therapist?
16:02:32 <alise> i feel a horrible urge to make a new OS and a new language again...
16:02:36 <ais523> NIH = Not Invented Here? or National Institute of Health?
16:02:55 <ais523> well, doing something yourself for fun makes sense
16:03:17 <alise> nonono, I have a deep, unflinching belief that everything sucks
16:03:21 <alise> and that i can do so much better
16:03:27 <ais523> but if you're doing something for someone else, it helps to try to make sure it's better than the existing alternatives, and basing it on them makes sense
16:03:47 <ais523> jettyplay came out of a belief that all existing ttyrec player sucked; it's not finished yet, but I think it's better than all the competition already
16:03:56 <ais523> now I've finally tracked down all the known memory leaks
16:04:02 <alise> ais523: at least your project is small
16:04:14 <alise> my language is probably not even implementable efficiently with current CS knowledge!
16:04:16 <ais523> yep, and the competition not only finite, but verifiably so
16:04:58 <zzo38> Explain how Enhanced CWEB is insane, in your opinion.
16:05:01 <ais523> hmm, apparently the maker of I Wanna Be The Fangame is one of the only two people to have ever completed the original
16:05:09 <alise> zzo38: i'm not sure, it just ... us
16:05:09 <ais523> that sort-of makes sense, although I wouldn't have expected it
16:05:16 <ais523> (completed the original on highest difficulty, that is)
16:05:17 <alise> ais523: no, more than one person has completed the actual one
16:05:19 <alise> maybe that's old info
16:05:23 <alise> it's in the double digits
16:05:30 <alise> i forget exactly how many
16:05:31 <ais523> well, I was only aware of two
16:05:35 <ais523> but that's good to know
16:05:54 <alise> the general consensus seems to be that once you get used to it, you can just memorise all the levels and complete it
16:06:06 <alise> since i guess you can adjust to the insane bastard-physics
16:06:45 <alise> I wonder if they've actually put virtualisation support on my chip
16:06:47 <alise> but just locked it out?
16:06:50 <ais523> I agree with that, I think
16:06:59 <ais523> it's memorisation + steady hand platforming
16:07:10 <alise> "Modern laptops by Sony use, instead of a BIOS, a new approach called EFI." ;; I did not know this.
16:07:16 <alise> Sony laptops are on a collision-course with Apple.
16:07:23 <alise> I think they will release the exact same model within three years.
16:08:44 -!- cheater99 has joined.
16:09:17 <alise> nobody loves my poor U4100 processor
16:09:29 <alise> with its 1.3 GHz speed and its 2 MiB cache
16:09:36 <alise> model name: Genuine Intel(R) CPU U4100 @ 1.30GHz
16:09:39 <alise> guess it's downclocked itself
16:10:49 <ais523> due to overheating, or thinking it is?
16:11:06 <ais523> hmm, you have pretty much the same sort of laptop as me, don't you?
16:11:09 <olsner> or maybe it's just bored
16:11:18 <alise> ais523: all modern laptops downclock when not under load
16:11:19 <ais523> try rapping it a few times just beyond the top-left corner of the keyboard
16:11:22 <alise> to conserve battery
16:11:34 <ais523> sometimes the fan gets stuck, and doing that frees it up
16:11:38 <alise> my fan has never got stuck :P
16:11:44 <alise> it's not a bug that it's downclocked
16:11:52 <alise> also, i think this laptop may be better-built than yours, being bigger and more expensive
16:11:54 <alise> although essentially the same
16:12:02 <alise> one would think the greater internal spreadout would leave less room for jamming fans
16:12:22 <alise> actually sometimes the fan on this goes off altogether because the cpu isn't even generating enough heat to be worth it
16:12:55 * alise downloads the NixOS live CD
16:13:08 <alise> Purely functional package and configuration management, it's gotta be better than the rest, right?
16:13:21 <ais523> the fan on this is /usually/ off altogether
16:13:24 <alise> ais523: well, me too
16:13:26 <ais523> while it's spinning, it doesn't get stuck
16:13:30 <alise> but i often have like
16:13:33 <ais523> it's when it tries to turn on that the problem happens
16:13:40 <alise> and 30 tabs in each browser
16:13:43 <alise> well, not that extreme
16:13:46 <alise> but you get my point
16:13:51 <alise> and switching windows is...
16:13:57 <alise> (never slow, but you can tell it's working)
16:15:34 <ais523> tabs don't use CPU, though, do they? just memory?
16:15:42 <ais523> unless they're trying to run Flash or something silly like that?
16:16:01 <alise> i'm not sure *why* switching windows causes it to work a bit more if you have a lot of them
16:16:03 <alise> come to think of it
16:16:05 <alise> i may be imagining it
16:16:13 <alise> my relation with computers is very... superstitious
16:16:30 <alise> i don't quite trust that they're actually doing something reasonable when i ask them to do something, because they're told to do *so* *much* stuff
16:17:13 -!- nooga has left (?).
16:17:13 -!- nooga has joined.
16:17:17 -!- nooga has left (?).
16:17:22 <alise> I'm very sorry, but the following error(s) occurred:
16:17:22 <alise> Product /nix/store/l3q29m17x8sdribzmnz9lr1kg2l7hic4-nixos-manual/share/doc/nixos has disappeared.
16:17:24 -!- nooga has joined.
16:17:26 <alise> Well that's not very purely functional, is it?
16:20:28 <alise> ais523: I had a strange language idea where modules were actually Erlang-style processes.
16:20:40 <alise> And f(x) was just an object, Prolog-style.
16:20:53 <alise> io<-stdout<-print("Hello, world!\n")
16:21:02 <alise> <alise> And f(x) was just an object, Prolog-style.
16:21:13 <alise> predicate(print("Hello, world!\n"))
16:21:16 <alise> and it's just an object
16:21:19 <alise> you know what i mean
16:21:21 <alise> in the Scheme sense
16:24:15 <ais523> I think "term" is the "official" term for that
16:24:38 <ais523> I love the way it's entirely possible to use, say, 3-4 as an inert piece of data
16:24:40 <alise> "term" usually means "expression". Sometimes.
16:24:41 <alise> http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2010/09/shorter-words-for-expression.html
16:24:56 <alise> arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2010/09/shorter-words-for-expression.html
16:25:04 <ais523> because although it means '-'(3,4), it isn't interpreted as arithmetic unless you actually try to evaluate it as an arithmetic expression
16:25:37 <alise> but yeah, that's the idea I had
16:25:47 <alise> you could also have things like, I don't know, a receiver for a socket
16:25:49 <alise> which would end up having
16:25:56 <alise> receiver <- "packet"
16:25:59 <alise> as opposed to a function call
16:26:04 <alise> I guess it was some sort of unification, but.
16:26:42 <alise> (Arcane Sentiment is an excellent blog, btw.)
16:27:27 <nooga> http://snarxiv.org/
16:27:32 <nooga> this is extreely fun
16:27:45 <alise> http://snarxiv.org/vs-arxiv/ is funner.
16:33:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
16:33:33 <alise> ais523: how much RAM does your laptop have?
16:33:53 <ais523> enough that Windows 7 actually manages to start, eventually
16:33:54 <ais523> although I don't run it nowadays
16:34:31 <alise> $(free -m), Mem - total :P
16:39:10 <ais523> not entirely sure which unit it's using
16:39:16 <alise> bi, almost certainly.
16:39:22 <nooga> should i make something like http://snarxiv.org/vs-arxiv/ for prolog bits?
16:39:26 <alise> ais523: I have closer to 4 GiB. But the funny thing is, I find it hard to believe.
16:39:43 <alise> Because my CPU has quite a low GHz, and... well... it's so small! So small! and my desktops all have less memory...
16:39:49 <alise> I keep thinking I don't have 4 GiBs to play around with
16:39:52 <alise> and worry about allocating too much to VMs
16:40:38 <alise> wow, I forgot how ugly 16-bit colour is with modern UIs
16:40:49 <alise> they try and use their full-colour images, so the dithering is awful
16:41:30 <alise> nooga: what do you mean :P
16:41:31 <nooga> prolog is too simple
16:44:00 <nooga> a page that woul let you to guess which function is meaningless and which is a real one
16:51:26 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/NixOS$ dd if=/dev/zero of=hd bs=1k count=0 seek=8388608
16:51:26 <alise> 0 bytes (0 B) copied, 1.8299e-05 s, 0.0 kB/s
16:51:28 <alise> Damn that was quick.
16:52:31 <Vorpal> alise, does python have any function like is-int? or such
16:53:08 <alise> Vorpal: you don't want to.
16:53:20 <alise> isinstance(x, int)
16:53:27 <alise> but it's generally considered bad -- then again, who gives a shit?
16:53:30 <alise> Vorpal: not really
16:53:32 <alise> it's just x is-a int
16:53:43 <alise> it just checks that the class is either that class or a subclas
16:53:44 <Vorpal> fine then, since I need to invoke it quite often
16:56:07 <olsner> if you need it to be fast, just make it so you don't have to check anything at all
16:56:37 <alise> if you need it to be fast, make it a lookup table
16:56:40 <alise> THEN REMOVE THE LOOKUP TABLE
16:58:04 <zzo38> Make a graph of the IRC of: Uppercase letters, lowercase letters, digits, punctuation, line length, words per line, NOTICE messages, ACTION messages, messages containing CTRL+A but not ACTION, URLs, replies, user registration, QUIT messages, idle time, etc
16:58:50 <alise> THEN REPLACE YOUR CODE WITH NOPS
16:58:52 <Vorpal> olsner, well, fast as in "not excessively slow" here.
16:58:53 <alise> THEN REMOVE THE NOPS!!!!
16:59:52 <alise> Vorpal: did you know that linux consoles can have a background image, and be centred???
17:00:05 <Vorpal> bg image yes, and centered as in the image?
17:00:15 <alise> NixOS's console is centred with a background that has a translucent, glow-bordered area
17:00:18 <alise> in which the actual console is placed
17:00:21 <alise> it's freaking me out
17:00:26 <olsner> Vorpal: seeing as python already is excessively slow, I think you'll be fine
17:00:29 <Vorpal> you mean center as in smaller buffer than screen or centered as in <center>?
17:00:31 <alise> (translucent = dimmed)
17:00:35 <EOF> ARM SUPERCOMPUTER FTW
17:00:42 <Vorpal> alise, hm okay, that bit I didn't know
17:00:44 <alise> so it looks like you have a title-less, translucent xterm on top of a background image
17:01:09 <EOF> hello vorpal
17:01:18 <EOF> hello alise
17:01:26 <EOF> and hello zzo38
17:02:58 <EOF> the ARM archetecture is BEAUTIFUL!!!
17:03:36 <EOF> i want to hug it
17:03:58 <zzo38> EOF: Do you know about the MMIX?
17:04:02 <EOF> ARM has breasts
17:04:25 <EOF> MMIX better get going
17:04:38 <zzo38> EOF: How is that relevant? And that doesn't even make sense anyways. How can ARM have breasts?
17:05:06 <EOF> because it's beautiful
17:06:23 <alise> EOF: can you stop being fucking insane, or just go away?
17:07:02 <zzo38> "because it's beautiful"? I am not sure I follow.....
17:08:14 <EOF> i made a program for the sheevaplug and it calculates nipple positions from photos if you know the light angle
17:08:22 <EOF> and it works
17:08:58 <EOF> anybody want the code?
17:09:10 <EOF> or should o sell it to th military
17:09:17 <zzo38> EOF: So now you made a program that can find things in pictures
17:09:28 <zzo38> You should make the code more generalized
17:09:43 <EOF> it finds nipple positions
17:09:47 <EOF> nothing more
17:10:13 <EOF> using approximations of the golden ratio
17:10:16 <zzo38> EOF: Yes I know that, but unless it can be modified to do more generalized stuff, it isn't that useful
17:10:51 <EOF> i guess it could find the majority of other measurements in the human body
17:11:10 <EOF> with the right approach
17:11:33 <zzo38> I suppose that is a possibility
17:13:22 <EOF> motion tracking for long range computerized riflemen?
17:13:47 <EOF> aka sniper sentries :)
17:16:28 <EOF> ARM's breasts AR M cups
17:18:09 <alise> EOF: you are possibly the stupidest person ever to visit this channel.
17:18:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, the matching up works fine up until netsplit, but handling netsplit seems near impossible
17:18:52 <Vorpal> especially the rejoining after
17:22:40 <zzo38> alise: You may be correct. It does seem like that.
17:22:51 <EOF> i was once required by an employer to use FORTRAN, i quit
17:23:04 <EOF> FORTRAN EWW!!!
17:23:16 <alise> Fortran was a perfectly good language for its time.
17:23:43 <zzo38> EOF: If you don't like FORTRAN, that is OK. Different people can prefer a different program language.
17:24:00 <EOF> yeah, i suppose, but it was invented for the IBM 704
17:24:18 <EOF> prior to tpedecks
17:24:37 <EOF> dip switches and punchcards
17:29:48 <zzo38> I invented the "Pokemon Keyboard".
17:31:45 <zzo38> In typing mode, the keys are: 0/A, 1/B, 2/C, 3/D, 4/E, 5/F, 6/G, 7/H, 8/I, 9/J, minus/K, plus/L, multiply/M, divide/N, dot/O, colon/P, comma/Q, semicolon/R, equal/S, not-equal/T, less/U, greater/V, left-parenthesis/W, right-parenthesis/X, quote/Y, question/Z, hash/apostrophe, infinity/male, currency/female, SPACE, NUM/ALPLA, left, right, RUBOUT, ENTER, CLEAR, up, down, SPECIAL, CANCEL.
17:32:45 <zzo38> In non-typing mode, the keys are: NULL, GRASS, FIRE, WATER, BUG, POISON, GHOST, ROCK, GROUND, NORMAL, FLYING, FIGHTING, PSYCHIC, ELECTRIC, ICE, DRAGON, DARK, METAL, PICTURE, OTHER, LEVEL, EVOLVE, SEARCH, AREA, STATUS, ORDER, HEIGHT, WEIGHT, TEXT, MODE, EDIT, PREVIOUS, NEXT, DELETE, SAVE, SEND, PROGRAM, PRINT, TIME, LOAD.
17:34:08 <Sgeo|web> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kh4xhem8tM&feature=player_embedded
17:42:10 <Sgeo|web> Hey, so I'm only second stupidest?
17:44:11 <Sgeo|web> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=191ZS217zOY&feature=related
17:44:33 <Sgeo|web> Obviously, I'm only considering people in this channel, not the morons in the videos I'm linking
17:45:50 <alise> Sgeo|web: she is so shitfaced in that second video
17:45:58 <alise> "You're stupid, you're stupid!" ":D :D XD :D :D :D"
17:45:58 <zzo38> Sgeo|web: I do understand that is what you mean. (However, I did not watch the video.)
17:46:13 * Sgeo|web looks for the remainer of what she said
17:47:14 <Sgeo|web> " Angle: Actually, Thomas Jefferson has been misquoted, like I've been misquoted out of context. Thomas Jefferson was actually addressing a church and telling them through his address that there had been a wall of separation put up between the church and the state precisely to protect the church" "
17:47:44 <Sgeo|web> ...does she think that Separation of Church and State doesn't do that? That that's not what it is?
17:47:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm not sure what's wrong with netsplit; isn't it just so that those messages will end up being not-matched and therefore both end up in the final result? (And after the split is over you should again start seeing matches.) (But I don't know what you've done there, so... also, still quite away.)
17:47:52 <Sgeo|web> It protects the church. All churches.
17:48:24 <alise> "Church" doesn't mean "little church building" in this context...
17:48:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: As for the Python type-checking, you can test like "if type(x) is int" or "if type(x) is not int"; I guess that won't handle inheritance though.
17:49:10 <alise> fizzie: that's evil :P
17:49:11 <Sgeo|web> There is a Python function for checking for inheritance
17:49:27 <fizzie> Sgeo|web: The isinstance() alise mentioned?
17:50:51 <fizzie> alise: Also, I did that "fixed sample set size" test, and ended up with a real mess: http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapf.png
17:50:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, the issue is matching up, since joins on different sides won't match
17:51:07 <Vorpal> if I was on a different side than clog
17:51:20 <zzo38> fizzie: What is this graph plotting?
17:51:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, I might be better off just trying to track msg/act
17:51:32 <alise> fizzie: That one's the other one in seventy-gazillion bajillion years.
17:51:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: Is it a particular problem if both sets of joins end up in the log?
17:51:54 <alise> The galaxies merging and shit.
17:52:11 <alise> So what VMs are there apart from VirtualBox and QEMU? For Linux that is.
17:52:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that is one issue. There is another scenario as well: one side see it as a netsplit, the other times out
17:52:54 <Vorpal> which happens in a few places
17:53:01 <Vorpal> but the first is a lot more problematic
17:53:09 <zzo38> Can you tell me what this graph is plotting, please? Like, what is the X axis for, what is the Y axis for, what are the shapes means, etc
17:53:44 <fizzie> zzo38: It's a scatterplot of the two first PCA components of 60 different writing-style-related features -- http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png has some of the raw features -- where each x is from features computed over 2000 messages.
17:54:27 <fizzie> zzo38: http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.png uses a lot larger sample sizes, so there the people actually can be separated.
17:54:47 <Sgeo|web> My dad dislikes Obama, but only because of economic... thingies that I fail to understand
17:55:01 <Sgeo|web> For all I know, the Republicans are 100% correct when it comes to the economy
17:55:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, also messages can get lost before the point the other end see a quit
17:55:10 <fizzie> zzo38: And the ellipses are just contour plots at one and two standard deviations of normal distributions fitted to corresponding points.
17:55:15 <zzo38> fizzie: Do you have a full list of the components and the features?
17:55:15 <Sgeo|web> But the social stances in general I cannot agree with
17:55:45 <Sgeo|web> My dad also thinks of the Tea Party in terms of its economic positions
17:56:16 <fizzie> zzo38: http://p.zem.fi/esomap-feats -- the "foo (n)" ones are like histogram bins there.
17:56:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, in the fixed set only you and zzo can be cleanly separated heh
17:56:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, at least for those two components
17:56:52 <fizzie> And "Punctuation frequency (ellipsis)" is in fact bugged and always 0 for everyone. :p
17:57:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does the ,1 for each one mean?
17:57:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's just the way octave prints out all cell arrays; it's a 60x1 array of strings, and it always prints out at least two indices.
17:58:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm what is Type/Token?
17:59:21 <fizzie> It's "count of unique words"/"count of all words".
17:59:22 <zzo38> Do you have a copy of the raw data for everyone (and statistics, such as mean/median/stddev/variance, for each feature)?
17:59:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, also, is there any specific reason to not include line length in characters? After all that previous plot cleanly separated you from me and alise when you did frequency of line lengths...
17:59:51 <Vorpal> zzo38, raw data I assume is the logs in topic
17:59:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's in there, it's the "[30,1] = Chars per paragraph (mean)".
18:00:44 <zzo38> Vorpal: OK, what if I use those I would also need the algorithms, which I do not have.
18:01:52 <fizzie> I have the raw computed features in MATLAB's binary format (readable with Octave too) if someone's so curious. http://zem.fi/~fis/esofea-n10.mat and http://zem.fi/~fis/esofea-m2000.mat for the esomapn.png and esomapf.png features, respectively. The data structures in the files might be a bit screwy, though.
18:02:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, is there any way to calculate/visualise "separability" when taking all PCA axises in account? Maybe as a graph with distance from a given nick to the other ones, one per nick of those.
18:02:01 <fizzie> (They're written to work with the MATLAB SOM toolbox.)
18:02:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: You could graph serious "separability" by training some sort of classifier with the data, and then plotting the confusion matrix; I'll do that soonishly.
18:03:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, "confusion matrix" :D
18:03:21 <Sgeo|web> http://gawker.com/5603331/comical-sharron-angle-needs-press-to-be-her-friend
18:03:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does a confusion matrix mean?
18:04:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's just the recognition results, so that rows match to the correct labels, columns match to the classifier results, and a value is in (i,j) if it actually has the label i but the classifier gives it j. You'd want the confusion matrix to be as diagonal as possible, since all values on the diagonal correspond to correct classifications.
18:05:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:05:13 <alise> Angle: "Well, no. We wanted them to ask the questions we want to answer so that they report the news the way we want it to be reported."
18:05:37 <Vorpal> alise, didn't you switch nick with Gregor some year(s) ago? For a few hours or such? And when you revealed what was going on it turned out no one had detected it.
18:05:46 <Vorpal> I seem to have a vague memory of that
18:06:16 <alise> Through a complicated number of swaps to each other's and other nicknames that appeared to restore itself but didn't.
18:06:24 * oerjan also has a vague memory. of that, and in general.
18:06:46 <Vorpal> alise, I guess that could both explain why you end up so near Gregor and also perhaps confuse the algorithm to place you even nearer. Or rather, place Gregor even nearer (due to your much higher volume I suspect you won't be affected as much)
18:06:59 <alise> Vorpal: it was for a short period of time
18:07:09 <Vorpal> true, but the first point still stands
18:08:00 <Vorpal> Gregor, did you drop an R hm?
18:08:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you merge Gregor and GregorR in those plots?
18:08:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think I merged in all that are like 'gregor%' there.
18:09:16 <Gregor> Makes sense since up 'til recently I used GregorR?(-[A-Z])?
18:09:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also, here's a confusion matrix for letters: http://zem.fi/~fis/q3.png -- you can see things like "oh, s is very easy to classify" and "k/p/t and m/n are easily confused".
18:10:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that for OCR? Or for the problem at hand?
18:10:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's some old speech recognition course homework.
18:10:55 <Gregor> So where's this nick-associability graph you're all referring to?
18:11:00 <Gregor> I don't see it in the logs (yet)
18:11:02 <alise> fizzie: /~fis/ must be so huge.
18:11:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, Finnish or English?
18:11:23 <fizzie> Gregor: http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapn.png is one.
18:12:01 <Vorpal> Gregor, another one is http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapnz.png
18:12:12 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:12:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, why is there no http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapfz.png ?
18:12:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Because esomapf.png already has a zzo in it.
18:12:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about a non-z version of that?
18:12:49 <fizzie> Gregor: I said this like *right now*.
18:13:15 <fizzie> Gregor: <fizzie> zzo38: It's a scatterplot of the two first PCA components of 60 different writing-style-related features -- http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png has some of the raw features -- where each x is from features computed over 2000 messages.
18:13:41 <Gregor> See, this is why I don't like using a BNC :P
18:13:55 <Gregor> It appears I've been here for hours, when in actuality my BNC's backlog didn't even cover that.
18:14:26 <alise> Gregor: So... don't?
18:14:32 <fizzie> Oh, I've configured bip to replay absolutely everything that has happened after I last said something/manually reset the backlog/last connected.
18:14:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, so set it to log further than that?
18:14:46 <fizzie> Not that I usually read the backlog, though, so I guess it won't help. :p
18:15:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: The confusion matrix is lacking äö, so it might even be English. In any case it was an phonemes-out-of-acoustics only trivial "recognizer", so it's actually a bit language-agnostic in that it doesn't care about words.
18:16:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, but not all languages have all phonemes afaik?
18:16:58 <alise> ls: cannot access /lib: No such file or directory
18:17:04 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later).
18:17:09 <alise> ls: cannot access /usr: No such file or directory
18:17:19 <Vorpal> tell me what that does
18:17:30 <Vorpal> alise, and lists what?
18:17:30 <Gregor> Ohbtw: <alise> Gregor: So... don't? // but now my hostname is codu.org :P
18:17:35 <alise> bin boot dev etc home media mnt nix nix-store.squashfs proc root sys tmp var
18:17:45 <Vorpal> alise, what is nix-store?
18:17:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, and English phonemes tend to have screwier names than just letters; so I think it is Finnish. I think it was from a three-sentence datasets, so it might just not have any äö in it.
18:17:46 <alise> Gregor: I can think of a million other ways to achieve that.
18:17:52 <alise> Gregor: Do you use a graphical client?
18:18:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't have stuff like combination of letters making new sounds in Finnish? Like sj in Swedish
18:18:45 <alise> Gregor: Here, I've thought of one already: Set up a tiny, tiny server on a port on codu.org that, when connected to, waits for a NICK/USER/PASS line, checks the PASS line, then creates a connection to irc.freenode.net, sends off those three lines, and simply directly relays everything between the two.
18:18:53 <alise> This connection is, obviously, broken when your client or the server breaks it.
18:19:02 <alise> This would be, what, 30 lines of code?
18:19:05 -!- jcp has joined.
18:19:14 <Gregor> alise: So, a bnc that doesn't remain connected.
18:19:21 <alise> Gregor: BNCs are much more involved...
18:19:28 <alise> They have "commands" and stuff!
18:19:31 <oerjan> <quintopia> Vorpal: then what was that you just posted above? did you, *gasp* MAKE YOUR OWN PAN? <-- Ceci n'est pas un pan
18:19:59 <alise> Vorpal: Can you tell what it is yet?
18:20:09 <Vorpal> alise, not all bncs have commands
18:20:15 <alise> Vorpal: Err, not that.
18:20:25 <alise> The disturbingly-empty filesystem tree.
18:20:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not much, though I think "ng" is often considered a different phoneme in Finnish. Still, Finnish text-to-phoneme mapping is usually done with a (very small) set of rules, as opposed to English which always needs a pronunciation dictionary.
18:20:47 <Vorpal> alise, well you had nix-store.squashfs in it
18:20:54 <Vorpal> alise, and you didn't answer my question:
18:20:57 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> alise, what is nix-store?
18:21:06 <alise> Vorpal: I won't answer something /that/ simple.
18:21:11 <Vorpal> alise, I presume it is something called nix-store
18:21:15 <alise> I'm afraid I will require more mechanical commands.
18:21:20 <alise> Or very simple questions.
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18:21:31 <Vorpal> alise, I'm not sure I'm interesting in guessing
18:21:51 <fizzie> alise: .squashfs makes it sound like some sort of embedded-linux, maybe a router or wlan-ap or whatnot.
18:22:02 <Vorpal> alise, but what does ls /nix do?
18:22:26 <Vorpal> alise, oh and some other stuff:
18:22:33 <alise> Although it also had "store" there a minute ago.
18:22:43 <alise> uname is /var/run/current-system/sw/bin/uname
18:22:54 <alise> (ls /nix/store does indeed work.)
18:23:06 <alise> Input/output error. I think I broke something.
18:23:18 <Vorpal> alise, what about: uname -a
18:23:27 <alise> Same. I think it doesn't like the VM.
18:23:50 <Vorpal> alise, well... does other commands that are not shell builtins still work?
18:24:27 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, is it linux-based or other (such as *bsd or whatever)
18:25:10 <EOF> why would somebody run linux in a VM if they could just fuse kernels
18:25:13 <fizzie> I'm not sure how well squashfs is supported on anything not a Linux.
18:25:19 <alise> ls -l ==> Bus error, lol, I have really fucked something up here
18:25:24 * oerjan sneakily steals his saucepan back
18:25:40 * EOF thinks that wasn't so sneaky
18:25:40 <Vorpal> alise, well then the answer is simple, it is some crazy linux distro along the lines of gobolinux when it comes to crazy organisation of the filesystem :P
18:25:44 <alise> Vorpal: I'll just give it away: it's NixOS, using the purely-functional package manager Nix.
18:25:48 <alise> similar, yes, but it's crazy in a cool way
18:26:08 <alise> every configuration or package change is versioned
18:26:09 <Vorpal> why the squashfs though?
18:26:11 <alise> so you can run trunk all the time
18:26:16 <alise> since you can just boot the previous configuration in grub
18:26:18 <oerjan> EOF: well you're not the one who isn't supposed to notice.
18:26:24 <alise> /nix/store/r8vvq9kq18pz08v249h8my6r9vs7s0n3-firefox-2.0.0.1/
18:26:29 <alise> the hash is a hash of the dependency graph
18:26:49 <alise> and the directory is immutable
18:26:59 <alise> and users can install multiple local versions of a package and it use the same tree
18:26:59 <Vorpal> alise, a pitty the whole OS is not purely functional. Since then fucking it up would be considered a side effect and thus be hard to perform :P
18:27:01 <alise> (because they're verified)
18:27:41 <alise> When you install a package like this…
18:27:41 <alise> $ nix-env --uninstall firefox
18:27:41 <alise> the package isn’t deleted from the system right away (after all, you might want to do a rollback, or it might be in the profiles of other users). Instead, unused packages can be deleted safely by running the garbage collector:
18:27:41 <alise> $ nix-collect-garbage
18:27:43 <alise> This deletes all packages that aren’t in use by any user profile or by a currently running program.
18:27:45 <alise> You can garbage collect the packages!
18:28:01 <alise> Oh yeah, and the package manager works on other distros too.
18:28:25 <Vorpal> alise, I'm not sure the native package manager wouldn't clobber it
18:28:54 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure dpkg clobbers stuff just fine if it doesn't think it handles them itself and they are not in /etc or such
18:30:29 <alise> Vorpal: it doesn't
18:30:33 <alise> since it's self-contained
18:30:36 <alise> here's the really cool thing
18:30:43 <alise> in NixOS, the CONFIGURATION is managed with nix too
18:30:52 <alise> boot.loader.grub.device = "/dev/sda";
18:30:52 <alise> { mountPoint = "/";
18:30:53 <alise> device = "/dev/sda1";
18:30:59 <alise> services.sshd.enable = true;
18:31:03 <alise> that's an example minimalist full-machine configuration
18:31:09 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't say nix clobbered, but that the package manager might unless you use a prefix for the nix stuff
18:31:10 <alise> so you can roll this back even if you make it not boot properly
18:31:12 <alise> (maybe not if you fuck up grub)
18:31:23 <Vorpal> alise, also the name is highly likely to cause confusion
18:31:25 <alise> Vorpal: it all goes in /nix/store :P
18:31:31 <alise> it's an established project
18:31:35 <Vorpal> alise, not /bin/sh though?
18:31:36 <alise> research papers, large package set
18:31:40 <alise> (full KDE 4, many many packages)
18:31:46 <alise> small but established userbase
18:32:05 <alise> Vorpal: I think that's because too much stuff breaks without it, dunno
18:32:09 <zzo38> If I write distro, I will write a new package manager, called "pm", which receives package files (which can be concatenated) from stdin, and does stuff depending on the command-line options, sending results to stdout and status messages to stderr.
18:32:31 <Vorpal> alise, there are a few more in that category, /usr/bin/env is very common
18:32:48 <alise> Vorpal: i'm not sure what they do for that. i'd have to checl.
18:33:17 <Vorpal> alise, does it boot though?
18:33:29 <alise> Boot? Of course it boots. People use it as their main system.
18:33:40 <Vorpal> alise, I mean after you fucked it up
18:33:51 <alise> i'm not sure how i fucked it up but i sure did
18:33:52 <Vorpal> alise, that explains the squashfs
18:34:08 <Sgeo|NeedUSB> How does being a purely functional package manager help with any of that
18:34:30 <alise> Sgeo|NeedUSB: what?
18:34:42 <Sgeo|NeedUSB> "Nix is a purely functional package manager. This means that it can ensure that an upgrade to one package cannot break others, that you can always roll back to previous version, that multiple versions of a package can coexist on the same system, and much more.
18:35:00 <alise> the package management is purely functional, not just the code
18:35:15 <alise> it's not "this is written in Haskell" it's "packages are literally immutable and rollbackable"
18:35:36 <Vorpal> alise, what happens if you manually edit a file of a package?
18:36:18 <alise> Vorpal: well, at least one of the people there wants to chattr +i the store
18:36:26 <alise> i think you CAN fuck it up as root, but you'd have to be very deliberate
18:38:28 <alise> Vorpal: no /usr/bin/env :D
18:40:41 <alise> It's a LiveCD, what's the worst that could happen?!
18:40:51 <alise> Mm, the silent sound of destruction.
18:40:58 <alise> Anarchic carnage. Chaos rules the land of Nix!
18:41:24 <alise> Sgeo|NeedUSB: What?
18:41:28 <Vorpal> alise, so is there any package monad?
18:41:40 <alise> the kernel panicked :D
18:41:50 <alise> Sgeo|NeedUSB: mmmmmmyes.
18:41:55 <alise> but 2gb should be fine at a pinch
18:41:58 <alise> Sgeo|NeedUSB: NOTE
18:42:01 <alise> boot it from a livecd first
18:42:06 <alise> then use the USB Creator to write it to your drive
18:42:19 <alise> Sgeo|NeedUSB: remember to check the setting that allows ~ to be preserved
18:42:25 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, when they say a package isn't deleted right away does it mean that the app stays in your path and such
18:42:30 <Vorpal> or is it moved elsewhere from there
18:42:35 <Sgeo|NeedUSB> It won't preserve installed packages though, will it?
18:42:37 <alise> Vorpal: it's taken out of the current system
18:42:41 <alise> but still exists in prior systems and in the store
18:42:48 <alise> the current system is just a bunch of symlinks, I think
18:42:52 <Vorpal> alise, does it use unionfs for it or something?
18:42:55 <alise> Sgeo|NeedUSB: uh, maybe. dunno. probably not.
18:43:01 <alise> Vorpal: i'm not sure on the details
18:43:03 <alise> you'd have to ask #nixos
18:43:50 <Vorpal> alise, any multilib support?
18:44:04 <Vorpal> multilib done properly would make me interested
18:44:08 <alise> Vorpal: Probably? Ask #nixos.
18:44:49 <Sgeo|NeedUSB> But I really want Haskell with Erlang-style hotswapping
18:45:37 <Vorpal> "This command does everything necessary to make the configuration happen, including downloading and compiling OpenSSH, generating the configuration files for the SSH server, and so on." <-- hm, so... what if you want custom settings for the sshd, more than just "on/off"?
18:45:54 <Vorpal> do you edit sshd_config then or does it provide some other way for all possible ssh settings?
18:46:08 <alise> you're doing that thing you do
18:46:12 <Vorpal> alise, but you have it running
18:46:14 <alise> assuming that because someone mentions something they're an expert
18:46:22 <alise> Vorpal: so do they
18:46:25 <alise> they also know where all this stuff is
18:46:33 <Sgeo|NeedUSB> Every web framework and its mother has its own templating language
18:46:41 <alise> Sgeo|NeedUSB: not all of them!
18:47:29 <olsner> alise: what, you mean you're not a nixos expert? you've been using this thing for several hours by the sound of it!
18:47:30 <Vorpal> alise, the docs on their website... are very limited
18:48:11 <Sgeo|NeedUSB> Well, the thingy for Smalltalk instead has ... painting thingies
18:48:20 <alise> olsner: minutes actually!
18:48:26 <alise> Vorpal: they have a full manual.
18:48:34 <alise> the NixOS manual link is broken, here is one that works:
18:48:42 <alise> http://hydra.nixos.org/build/638450/download/1/nixos/manual.html
18:48:46 <alise> some issue with their continuous build system
18:49:09 <Vorpal> alise, yes it is very limited. It's the same as the one I saw.
18:50:00 <Vorpal> alise, here I compare to gentoo manual or freebsd manual. Heck even openbsd manual is better than that. It is just a quick start guide compared to those.
18:50:30 <alise> Sgeo|NeedUSB: middle mouse button
18:50:44 <alise> Vorpal: irrelevant. those document all the software packages in the system too
18:50:46 <alise> nix has no need to
18:50:48 <Vorpal> alise, bbl, valvaka (no clue how to translate that, ask olsner or fizzie or someone, though olsner is probably going to watch that too)
18:51:06 <alise> "valvaka", says Google.
18:51:09 <alise> Sgeo|NeedUSB: it is already on
18:51:12 <alise> left and right buttons together
18:51:17 <alise> shift+insert might also work
18:52:28 <olsner> hmm, wake seems to be a specifically funeral ceremony
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18:53:08 <alise> election wake XDDDD
18:53:37 <fizzie> I think it translates to vaalivalvojaiset; HTH.
18:53:53 <olsner> staying up late to watch the counting of the votes live and listen to political analysis and stuff
18:55:02 <Sgeo|NeedUSB> The annoying thing about Try Haskell is that it's more REPL-like and less "Put stuff in, put it in a file, run file" like
18:55:02 <alise> Vorpal: http://wiki.nixos.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:56:12 <alise> Vorpal: nix-build --argstr system i686-linux $NIXPKGS_ALL -A skype_linux
18:57:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
18:57:42 <fizzie> Sgeo|NeedUSB: You can (IIRC) swap the button meanings in urxvt so that it's "paste" on right-button and "extend selection" (the far less used one) on middle, but I'm not sure I'd do that, I'm afraid it might lead to a habit of right-clicking for paste.
18:58:18 <zzo38> Could you add support for the <xmp> tag to the esolang wiki? (It does not have to actually output the <xmp> tag, it might convert it to other tags.) Also support digits after "xmp", so that you can write <xmp15> ...... </xmp15>
18:58:28 <olsner> aha, luckily wake also means "to remain awake for some purpose, duty, etc." and "to keep watch or vigil." ... either works well with an election
18:59:34 <zzo38> The <xmp> tag on MediaWiki should make it print everything inside the tags as verbatim text, with no templates, signatures, HTML tags, HTML character entities, or other stuff.
19:00:08 <nooga> you shold all try f.lux program
19:00:14 <fizzie> Sgeo|NeedUSB: PuTTY's is configurable too; I think it even calls the paste-on-middle "X-style".
19:00:15 <nooga> it's totally awesome
19:00:37 <zzo38> As well as turning off the spam filter inside of <xmp> tags for registered autoconfirmed users.
19:01:20 <zzo38> nooga: What is f.lux program?
19:01:53 <olsner> oh my, the nationalist party may get into parliament
19:02:12 <nooga> it adjusts color temperature of your display so that you can last whoile night looking at it
19:02:54 <nooga> and it doesn't affect the actual brightness nor contrast
19:03:48 <zzo38> I already adjusted the color temperature on my computer anyways
19:03:57 <alise> zzo38: it updates it dynamically over the night
19:04:03 <alise> so it maintains a constant perceived brightness
19:04:05 <Gregor> Hahaha ad fail. Accidentally clicked a Hulu ad that led me to http://ask.sherwin-williams.com/
19:04:10 <alise> based on your timezone and the light you use
19:04:14 <Gregor> Which is an unconfigured IIS7 install :P
19:04:27 <alise> Gregor: Wow, they stole that Welcome-in-43583475345-languages thing from OS X.
19:04:35 <alise> And the whole spacey-explosion-background-with-big-shadowed-text thing.
19:04:43 <alise> Microsoft: TRYING TOO HARD
19:04:54 <Gregor> Stealing from OS X is what Microsoft does.
19:05:07 <alise> Gregor: Do you know how stable btrfs is?
19:05:17 <alise> WELL START KNOWING
19:05:22 <zzo38> alise: And I don't need such a thing that updates it dynamically based on those things, what I have works
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19:10:57 <alise> SgeosTears: not right now, but later.
19:11:02 <fizzie> Wow, ugly: http://www.epstk.de/ http://epstk22.awardspace.com/examples/demo2.png
19:11:12 <alise> fizzie: latter is 404
19:11:27 <fizzie> Weird, maybe it checks referer or something.
19:11:32 <alise> yeah works on the page
19:11:55 <alise> we need something to fake referer instead of just hiding it (like anonym.to does)
19:26:37 <SgeosTears> Dammit, is it starting the download over?
19:27:12 * SgeosTears attempts to work out how to resume a download
19:30:09 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/shogun-octave -- a stable piece of software there.
19:34:00 <SgeosTears> Note to self: Don't assume /mnt/flash is, in fact, the flash drive
19:34:12 <SgeosTears> Esp. if i know that /mnt/sda1 is def. the flash drive
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19:40:28 <alise> SgeosTears: how old is fine structure? it was there in august 2005
19:41:38 <alise> http://web.archive.org/web/20080221012806/qntm.org/?structure
19:41:43 <alise> "This story has been ongoing since 2006."
19:41:45 <alise> http://web.archive.org/web/20080221003727/qntm.org/?fiction
19:41:52 <alise> Fine Structure (subdirectory)
19:42:13 <alise> Forgotten things in space. That's not in any more, is it?
19:42:15 * augur flops on alise sup you
19:42:24 <alise> That's why you said unbelievable scenes in space, SgeosTears?
19:42:37 <alise> Is reading "Forgotten things in space" a spoiler, then?
19:44:25 <SgeosTears> Forgotten things in space was retconned out
19:44:40 <SgeosTears> I think it is why I said Unbelievable Things in Space
19:44:58 <alise> "Then a man named Calrus discovered how to travel faster than light."
19:45:02 <alise> then that explains it
19:45:04 <alise> the comment on the later story
19:45:08 <alise> about "Calrus, the guy who invented FTL?"
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20:08:20 <SgeosTears> alise: "[REDACTED] is canon. Think of it as a deleted scene."
20:08:30 <SgeosTears> No, [REDACTED] is not the title of the actual thing
20:10:08 <ais523> hmm, apparently Myst completely confused its fans, when the developers made statements about official canon that contradicted the games
20:10:18 <ais523> people aren't entirely sure what to make of it
20:11:15 <SgeosTears> Also, I think that in Uru canon, the games were actually PC games based on real events
20:11:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's a confusion matrix out of a default-parameters SVM classifier, on the "easy" set (everyone's all messages divided into 10 sets), 10-fold cross-validation (i.e. classifier trained on a set that has 9 points from everyone, then tested on a set that has one point from everyone, results averaged out). It's pretty boring,
20:12:27 <Vorpal> <olsner> staying up late to watch the counting of the votes live and listen to political analysis and stuff <-- so what is it called in English?
20:13:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, "here" you say, but where is the link?
20:13:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Uh... I *thought* I had written it, but seems not.
20:13:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://zem.fi/~fis/esoconf.png anyway; "I mean, really, you should've been able to guess that".
20:14:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, so Gregor/ihope?!
20:15:08 <fizzie> There's two instances of ihope being misclassified as Gregor, right. And some cross-confusion between gregor/pikhq, which I think was in the original plot too.
20:15:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the scale? percent of messages tested on?
20:15:24 <Gregor> That level of correlation is pretty high, actually.
20:15:38 <Gregor> I suppose you could identify me fairly accurately with /:P$/ though :P
20:15:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, well ratio, not percent
20:16:07 <Vorpal> Gregor, I do that sometimes too, and ";P"
20:16:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's normalized across the columns, so it's "fraction of correctly classified instances of this particular person".
20:17:03 <fizzie> Gregor: Right, but my features are borderline trivial: http://p.zem.fi/esomap-feats if you didn't see them yet.
20:17:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's why they call it a confusion matrix.
20:17:11 <nooga> in which C compilers x[y] means the same as y[x]
20:17:28 <fizzie> nooga: In all of them. Well, all compliant, anyway.
20:17:42 <nooga> since, i believe that it's all translated to *(x+y)
20:17:43 <fizzie> x[y] = *(x+y) = *(y+x) = y[x], after all.
20:17:48 <Gregor> fizzie: Yeah, I saw them.
20:18:00 <fizzie> Yes, 4["hello"] == 'o'.
20:18:52 <fizzie> It's a bit of an IOCCC'y trick to do, though.
20:19:16 <fizzie> I've seen exactly one instance of integer_variable["string literal"] in real code, I think.
20:19:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm surprised you seen any at all
20:19:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, what was the context of that one
20:20:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: dcraw.c, tiff_get(), line 4308 (of some version): if (*len * ("11124811248488"[*type < 14 ? *type:0]-'0') > 4)
20:20:48 <Deewiant> That's not integer_variable["string literal"]
20:21:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, you're right! I misremembererered it.
20:21:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's still pretty messy, though. Maybe I could suggest swapping those around.
20:21:49 <fizzie> "It seems to me you're trying to make this more confusing: here, swap those around."
20:22:27 <Deewiant> Modulo naming the magic constants :-P
20:22:51 <Vorpal> also type → t and len → l
20:23:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'd write it with a "static unsigned char type_lengths[] = {1, 1, 1, ...}" and then type_lengths[...], instead of using ascii digits and subtracting '0'.
20:23:18 <Vorpal> SgeosTears, which version? for which platform? which type of install?
20:23:27 <Vorpal> SgeosTears, or do you mean the program? then md5sum
20:23:31 <Vorpal> also why "tears" in your nick
20:23:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: Well yes, that comes with the naming
20:23:47 <SgeosTears> Because Firefox on PuppyLinux keeps crashing
20:24:10 <Deewiant> If it's somehow really obvious I might write it as shown, but it probably isn't
20:25:25 <SgeosTears> is canon. Think of it as a deleted scene.
20:26:42 <fizzie> SgeosTears: 9a95ed6f6ec38fb58c446dba1add6a08 if I picked the right row.
20:27:10 <fizzie> SgeosTears: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes
20:27:46 <Vorpal> btw for anyone interested (updated every minute): http://www.val.se/val/val2010/valnatt/R/rike/index.html
20:28:59 <Vorpal> SgeosTears, firefox keeps crashing? how weir
20:29:26 <olsner> Vorpal: yep, been refreshing the page ever since they started
20:29:26 <Vorpal> or the distro as whole?
20:30:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Are the light-grey bars last election's results?
20:31:09 <fizzie> Based on the fact that those column headings are also grey, I guess so.
20:34:12 <nooga> http://cobaia.net/2010/09/top-funny-source-code-comments/
20:34:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Valdeltagande .. 81,8%"; our last parliament elections (2007; there's one next year) had the lowest participation rate in Finland ever in the post-war era, 67,9%. Victory of the apathetic.
20:35:58 -!- alise has joined.
20:37:00 <Gregor> fizzie: In the US it hasn't beat 60% in 30 years.
20:38:30 -!- SgeosTears has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:38:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, that's preliminary
20:39:04 <alise> 12:12:55 <Vorpal> ah wake works, right
20:39:11 <alise> wake for is funerals only
20:39:18 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/esoconff.png -- heh, the fixed-size 2000-message test set is a pretty horrible sight. Almost everyone else (except ais523, me, oklopol and vorpal, and oerjan to some extent) keeps getting misclassified as alise. Probably because e represents over a third of the dataset.
20:39:43 <Vorpal> <olsner> aha, luckily wake also means "to remain awake for some purpose, duty, etc." and "to keep watch or vigil." ... either works well with an election
20:40:03 <alise> Vorpal: nobody says wake
20:40:06 <alise> people think funeral
20:40:11 <alise> *nobody says wake in any other context
20:40:23 <fizzie> alise: When you say wake, I think of that thing behind a boat.
20:40:40 <Vorpal> alise, now what would you call it?
20:40:44 <ais523> fizzie: analysing punctuation would probably work better
20:40:49 <Vorpal> I'll read the answer tomorrow. Night →
20:41:21 <fizzie> ais523: Probably. All this was originally done for book authorship classification, where the data points are quite a bit larger, so simple statistics like that have less variance.
20:42:03 <ais523> things like the punctuation mark used after a nickping would distinguish me from Vorpal straight off
20:42:49 <fizzie> That's not often seen in books, though. I'll try to make a more IRC-specific feature set at some point. There's some punctuation frequency counts, but they're just averages over the whole set.
20:43:16 <fizzie> (Still, the "colon frequency" would probably be higher for people that do "nick: foo" often.)
20:45:12 -!- distant_figure has joined.
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20:48:28 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png -- well, Vorpal does have the lowest colon frequency, and he does "nick," I guess.
20:53:40 <fizzie> (I never quite know how to react to greetings.)
20:54:42 <EOF> i have fallen in love with the arm architecture
20:55:02 <EOF> and the energy efficiency associated with it
20:56:02 <EOF> just image if intel applied their 22nm process to a desktop-class ARM cpu
20:56:23 <fizzie> Why, we could end world hunger in one swell foop!
20:57:12 * EOF instructs fizzle to duck as he fixes to explode
20:59:55 * EOF sees that fizzle ducked just in time and only lost four of his eight limbs
21:00:24 * EOF is going to stop with the /me stuff
21:00:32 * Gregor wonders who fizzle is.
21:00:55 * EOF takes that back
21:01:12 * EOF doesn't know who fizzle is either
21:01:41 * EOF also thinks that we should all speak in third person about ourselves
21:01:41 <fizzie> Gregor: Coincidentally, "fizzle" is what I was used to be called.
21:02:04 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has joined.
21:02:08 * EOF sees the error in his waingys/typ
21:02:25 <Sgeo|Empathy> Is Empathy as bad as most IM clients that try to do IRC are?
21:02:57 * EOF has never used empathy
21:15:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:16:40 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:18:56 <zzo38> End world hunger in the way they did at the radio, the entire universe is destroyed. And then they had news "the world no longer exists, I wanted to go to the zoo next week but I can't because neither the world nor me exist any more"
21:20:40 <ais523> zzo38: such a statement is a difficult one to make truthfully
21:21:02 <zzo38> ais523: Yes it is, but that was a joke (I think it was called "Irrelevance Show" or something like that)
21:23:25 <Sgeo|Empathy> Firefox just wastes SO MUCH screen space it isn't funny
21:24:38 <zzo38> Sgeo|Empathy: You can turn off some stuff, I think, in Firefox. Or use XUL-Runner, since Vonkeror does not use up much screen space for user interface stuff, only the document you are viewing takes up most of the space of the window.
21:26:56 <ais523> Sgeo|Empathy: if you press F11, then it doesn't use up any screen space but the document you're reading, the vertical scrollbar, and a few pixels at the top of the screen
21:32:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:33:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:33:24 -!- augur has joined.
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21:37:35 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has left (?).
21:37:43 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has joined.
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21:37:46 <augur> sgeo is not empath- oh wait
21:39:28 <alise> augur: what was the end of that sentence? :P
21:40:21 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> What are the haps, my friends? ;; this is a *so* un-you thing to say
21:40:29 <Sgeo|Empathy> I don't want to have to reinstall Chromium and Flash when I restart the comp
21:40:35 <alise> augur: i was making a pun on em-pathetic :P
21:40:39 <alise> anyway how do you know that?
21:40:44 <alise> unless you're making a diagnosis of autism
21:41:05 <augur> alise: his name was Sgeo|Empathy but then he left. we know he's still Sgeo, so he must no longer be empathetic!
21:41:18 <augur> http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2010/09/19/tapir3_1.jpg
21:41:22 <augur> have a david mitchell tapir
21:41:35 <alise> its nose is dripping. :|
21:41:38 <alise> brb, booting into a livecd
21:41:40 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:46:12 <Sgeo|Empathy> I can't cheat Meebo into telling me what my passwords are :(
21:47:33 -!- alise has joined.
21:47:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:47:38 <augur> alise: david mitchell tapir has a cold.
21:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Do dependently-typed languages have to be totalistic, or can they allow general recursion?
21:49:14 <alise> "total", not "totalistic".
21:49:22 <alise> And the former; the latter implies an inconsistent type system.
21:49:31 <alise> I suppose if you don't mind type-checking taking forever and will never want to prove anything with it, it's okay.
21:50:00 <alise> (Literally forever.)
21:50:18 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC there was some plan for Epigram to have limited general recursion, but I don't know the details.
21:51:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there was a tagging system in the type system, I think.
21:52:23 <Sgeo|Empathy> What's the difference between gddrescue and dd_rescue?
21:53:06 <fizzie> g sounds like something with a GTK gui.
21:54:01 <fizzie> (Also, this is fizzie|Empathy speaking, and I don't like this especially much. The correct-as-I-type puts squiggles under my name.)
21:54:40 <fizzie> Then the difference is probably that gddrescue can check your emails in addition to reading a disk.
21:54:50 * Phantom_Hoover stopped using Empathy when he discovered it was making his real name visible in whoises.
21:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> And I couldn't fix it easily, so I just switched to XChat.
21:55:12 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You can change that in the "add account" preferences.
21:57:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Empathy sucks as an IRC client and as a chat client in general, really.
21:58:30 <fizzie> With this default theme, I'm finding it pretty hard to distinguish between who says what.
22:00:41 <alise> <Sgeo|Empathy> Also, what, exactly, is People Near Here?
22:02:55 <fizzie> I don't see a "People Near Here" anywhere. :/
22:03:07 <fizzie> Ooh, graphical smileys, sign of civilization.
22:04:06 <fizzie> There's a "People Nearby" account type here, I guess that's the same thing.
22:04:50 -!- aku2 has joined.
22:06:11 <fizzie> I don't exactly like the word "room" in an IRCy context either.
22:06:22 <fizzie> But the speech bubbles sure are purty.
22:06:36 <Gregor> "I thought this plan was foolproof!" "Foolproof yes, idiot-proof no."
22:06:51 * Sgeo|Empathy dislikes how it's impossible to distinguish between someone joining/parting and someone using /me
22:07:13 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:07:34 * Sgeo|Empathy has disconnected(Ping timeout: 10000000000 seconds)
22:07:44 * Gregor has disconnected (OR HAS HE)
22:07:55 <fizzie> Sgeo|Empathy: Yes, that's confusing, I had to take a look in the XChat window to find out what actually happened on your "join".
22:08:20 -!- aku2 has quit (Client Quit).
22:08:44 <Gregor> "No Bullwinkle, we've got to think!" "Rocky, this is no time to pick up a new hobby!"
22:09:03 <alise> <Sgeo|Empathy> How does someone not on Ubuntu connect to it?
22:09:41 <alise> other clients support it
22:09:49 <alise> it may just be a libpurple thing, but no, iChat has it too
22:09:59 <fizzie> Yeah, it seems to be a serverless Jabber thing.
22:10:46 <fizzie> That sort of goes hand-in-hand with the serverlessness; where would you send the password to.
22:11:21 <fizzie> Zeroconf is done with multicast-DNS-driven service discovery, I assume that's how it works too.
22:12:23 <Sgeo|Empathy> BRB, restarting, in the hopes that my installed software stays installed somehow
22:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> http://pastebin.com/R6pkvHBF LW is beginning to disturb me.
22:15:57 <alise> Which part, exactly?
22:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously, that response by EY would be more in place in a SF/horror story than any kind of rationalist discussion.
22:16:09 <alise> Also, you could just link.
22:16:46 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:16:46 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:16:57 <alise> I think it's safe to assume EY is at least slightly autistic, and definitely ... abnormal, socially.
22:17:15 <SgeoN1> There's some kind of sick joke going on where sometimes, it refuses to see the USB stick
22:17:21 <alise> That's part of the problem. Even if you don't agree with EY.
22:17:34 <alise> A non-Friendly AI being created is the worst possible thing that could happen. Ever.
22:17:47 <alise> I don't think I agree with EY there. Although I see part of his point after filtering out the rage.
22:17:52 <Gregor> Fuck, I just made one.
22:18:04 <alise> But everyone agrees that a non-Friendly AI is the Worst Possible Thing.
22:18:39 <alise> Well, anyone who's actually thought about it -- you know, rationally.
22:18:41 <Gregor> Naw, a non-Friendly AI is just the next evolutionary step. At that point humans will be obsolete.
22:18:57 <fizzie> Hey now, that's not so bad: http://zem.fi/~fis/esoconfnf.png -- it's the same "features from 2000-message sets" confusion matrix, but with a different classifier than esoconff.png.
22:18:58 <alise> Gregor: A non-Friendly AI would not become the Borg.
22:19:06 <alise> Non-Friendly != evil; non-Friendly is worse.
22:19:09 <Gregor> alise: Hence the quote :P
22:19:30 <alise> A non-Friendly AI wouldn't actively decide to wipe us out, it would just see no problem with doing an action that happened to result in that, at all.
22:19:38 <SgeoN1> Yay, Chromium stayed installed!
22:19:59 <Gregor> The Borg don't seek to destroy a species that doesn't threaten them and isn't worth assimilating.
22:20:03 <alise> Gregor: If you said "I like paperclips" to a non-Friendly AI that listens to humans, it is *very possible* that it would just replace the entire universe with a paperclip pattern.
22:20:24 <alise> "I like paperclips" -> I'm trying to make them happy -> I like paperclips means paperclips are good ->
22:20:26 <alise> Make more paperclips
22:20:37 <alise> Best way to make more paperclips: Turn things into very small paperclips.
22:21:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, but surely it can reason enough to evaluate multiple factors?
22:21:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Elaborate.
22:21:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. it has a better view of the world than "paperclips".
22:21:51 <alise> I never said that's how it viewed the world.
22:21:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: have you read Creating Friendly AI?
22:22:09 <alise> I'm not asking you to sign up to the Cult of Yudkowsky or anything, I'm just saying you should.
22:22:26 <alise> Because it's pretty important that nobody defends or builds any AI which isn't some form of Friendly.
22:22:44 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has joined.
22:23:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, a computer on a desk has... limited paperclipping capability.
22:23:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And that's the thing.
22:24:05 <alise> We are presuming that the AI is self-improving, since that's the threat.
22:24:12 <alise> We are presuming that it surpasses human intelligence.
22:24:16 <Sgeo|Empathy> A sufficiently smart might be able to persuade humans to give it what it needs
22:24:28 <alise> How difficult would it be for a smarter-than-human AI to work up some money, and buy tech?
22:24:31 <alise> To steal the tech.
22:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So the crucial thing is that we make it friendly *before* making it self-improving?
22:24:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
22:24:47 <alise> Because once it's smarter than us -- or even as smart as us, if it's cunning and logical -- we can't control it.
22:25:05 <Gregor> http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/phi/1755781713.html ... lawl.
22:25:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely nuking it while it's still vulnerable would work?
22:25:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'll also just mention that a lot of very smart people have thought about this very hard for a very long time. :)
22:25:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not if it's replicated itself across the globe.
22:25:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And how do you know whether it's friendly or not?
22:26:00 <alise> You'll have no hope of understanding its data banks after it's mutated them itself.
22:26:08 <alise> And it'll be moving too fast for you to tell, anyway.
22:26:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely these are all arguments against making an AI at all?
22:26:41 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're this unsure, playing games with the whole of humanity is profoundly unethical.
22:26:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A Friendly AI has no such problems. And, well, that's saying that you should stop progress before it's dangerous.
22:26:50 <alise> We're not unsure if you get it right the first time.
22:26:52 <alise> Only if you don't.
22:26:59 <alise> Inventing fire was dangerous.
22:27:06 <alise> Fire changed everything. What if it was for the worst?
22:27:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Untrue.
22:27:18 <alise> I said that it's impossible to see the looming danger if it's self-improving.
22:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And how do you know whether it's friendly or not?
22:27:24 <alise> What I meant to say was:
22:27:30 <alise> I worded it badly.
22:27:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, you know you need to nuke it if you have some code and it's not Friendly.
22:27:42 <alise> Before you even run it.
22:27:48 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
22:27:56 <alise> Friendly is an actual term, not just pointlessly-capitalised.
22:28:04 <Phantom_Hoover> So we need to have absolute, unshakable, complete proof of Friendliness before giving it power?
22:28:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|Empathy, with self-improvement, they're the same.
22:28:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:28:42 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> So we need to have absolute, unshakable, complete proof of Friendliness before giving it power?
22:28:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Eliezer was the first to give Friendliness a rigorous treatment, though.
22:29:02 <alise> To actually define what an AI has to be to be safe.
22:29:13 <alise> The system of supergoals and subgoals, that's all his.
22:29:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, yes, there is massive risk. Even if you're careful and prove it in so many ways. But if you get it right it's also the end of suffering, which is Kind of a Big Deal.
22:30:11 <alise> http://singinst.org/upload/CFAI.html
22:30:19 <alise> Is definitely a worthy read if you're at all interested in this stuff.
22:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm interested in it inasmuch as I want to stop my pathological worrying getting in the way of my life.
22:31:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I went through that too. Don't worry.
22:31:56 <Phantom_Hoover> In any case, that LW thread still seems like a fairly irrational, fearful response.
22:31:58 -!- MigoMipo__ has joined.
22:32:14 <alise> Yes, well, this stuff is scary. I didn't read the thread due to the paste being badly-formatted.
22:32:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, if you're that worried about nFAI, you should be doing everything to stop its slightest risk.
22:33:17 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:34:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No. Seriously.
22:34:27 <alise> AI research is not bad.
22:34:44 <alise> AI or the death of civilisation seems to be more or less inevitable in the long term.
22:34:52 <alise> So what you have to do is promote Friendliness.
22:34:58 <alise> Not stop AI research altogether.
22:35:04 <alise> Because if civilisation survives -- and I think it probably will...
22:35:08 <alise> There's gonna be AI.
22:35:26 <alise> Nobody does that. I don't know that thread on LW. Possibly it was a mistake.
22:35:41 <alise> Although anyone outright advocating non-Friendly AI on Less Wrong is almost certain to get mauled.
22:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> That thread seems to have been deleted from LW itself.
22:35:59 <quintopia> GLaDOS was friendly before someone made her schizophrenic by changing important components
22:36:10 <alise> It's like saying "Why don't we try nuclear war?" as if everyone had nuclear weaponry in their house and it just required a huge amount of intelligence to fire them.
22:36:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Risk to humanity -- yes, inflated, I agree.
22:36:21 <alise> I wouldn't have done it.
22:36:25 <alise> But I see where he's coming from, you know?
22:37:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, deleting discussions *on the risks* on the grounds of risk is not going to help avoid the risks, IMO.
22:37:27 <alise> Actually most AI proponents think that developing nanotech is a very bad idea because of the immense destructive possibilities, and it's best to let a benevolent AI take care of developing it.
22:37:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Agreed.
22:37:34 <alise> You are probably right.
22:37:39 <alise> I am just defending the reasoning behind it, not the action.
22:37:51 <alise> I am not convinced that Yudkowsky actually sleeps at night.
22:38:01 -!- MigoMipo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:38:03 <quintopia> what's the name of the dude that offers money to people if he, prentending to be an AI trapped on a disconnected computer, can't convince them to let him out in just a couple hours?
22:38:09 <alise> quintopia: Yudkowsky.
22:38:11 <Phantom_Hoover> And if he thinks an nFAI is that petty and malicious, surely the people attempting to stop its creation would be the first on its Infinite Torture List?
22:38:15 <alise> He doesn't do it any more, I don't think.
22:38:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Stop what's creation?
22:38:30 <quintopia> yeah he would eventually fail, and lose a lot of money
22:38:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But nFAI is a bad thing...
22:38:46 <alise> People trying to stop nFAI being created are his friends... :P
22:38:51 <alise> quintopia: Yeah, all $20.
22:38:57 <alise> quintopia: It's a thought experiment, anyway.
22:39:04 <alise> In the real situation the thing on the other end is many, many times smarter than you.
22:39:07 <alise> So it's guaranteed to win.
22:39:08 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has quit (Quit: Sgeo|Empathy).
22:39:08 <quintopia> could have sworn he offered more than $20
22:39:17 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has joined.
22:39:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, I'm going to reboot now.
22:39:22 <Phantom_Hoover> But he deleted that post because he thought that if an nFAI was created, it could rain down suffering on people it didn't like.
22:39:31 <alise> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
22:39:32 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:40:03 <quintopia> don't listen to any of the other voices
22:40:21 <quintopia> if you lose your train of thought, you may never get it back
22:41:05 <zzo38> Don't lose your thought of train... Don't lose your thought of train... Don't lose your thought of train... Don't lose your thought of train... Don't lose more lot of rain...
22:41:16 <quintopia> keep it on its track and don't get derailed
22:42:14 <quintopia> tomorre do that this and the same?
22:42:40 <quintopia> gah. dropped packets like no one's biz.
22:42:42 <zzo38> Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.
22:43:21 -!- augur has joined.
22:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Extrapolating Moore's law infinitely as evidence for a singularity seems... dodgy.
22:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Given that we can't go much further down without bashing into fundamental constraints.
22:46:37 <quintopia> especially with the hard limits that have already been identified on the various Moore's Laws
22:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> And the fact that the good old laws of thermodynamics have *already* started to cap processor clock speeds.
22:48:01 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:48:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, we can probably push quite a bit further, but not indefinitely.
22:48:28 <quintopia> there's also a hard limit imposed on transistor size, although if quantum scale gates become feasible and cost-effective, that'll go away
22:48:35 <quintopia> but even then, we have a size limit
22:49:26 <quintopia> adiabatic computing could go a long way toward stepping past current heat-related limitations
22:49:37 <Phantom_Hoover> And there's also the jetpack effect when extrapolating into the future.
22:49:37 <quintopia> it's really hard to imagine where we'll get to though
22:49:52 <quintopia> iiiii think we just said the same thing
22:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> We'll be right with some things, but wrong with many, many more.
22:52:08 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's still worth consideration, since the costs and gains are so huge as to be impossible to ignore.
22:52:24 <quintopia> oh right and happy tlapd and stuff. shouldn't have forgotted that.
22:54:00 <quintopia> is there a variation on asimov's laws that doesn't drive AIs insane?
22:54:10 <Phantom_Hoover> This be far more disconcertin' than any of this FAI stuff!
22:55:01 <quintopia> you can be a pirate and still talk about bots
22:56:37 <Phantom_Hoover> We almost certainly won't be havin' nanoscale construction machines.
22:57:06 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:57:23 <coppro> I be thinkin ye wrong about tha
22:57:31 <coppro> and it bein a matter of school pride
22:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, macroscale von Neumann probes be plausible, but packin' the complexity necessary for such a feat into nigh-molecular scales is so implausible with current technology that it be meanin'less to speculate.
22:58:42 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:59:41 <SgeoN1> Alise, better to wait for some more time until I get the external mount, or as soon as possible, despite not having the external mount
22:59:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I be havin' a horrible feelin' that alise will start arguin' with me over this, and that not be particularly pleasant for those in the same time zone who be havin' conserrrvative sleep schedules.
23:00:36 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: why be ye callin' the lassy a he?
23:00:52 <SgeoN1> PH, what's your suggestion?
23:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, I not be bothered to keep track of everyone's pronoun requests.
23:01:13 <Gregor> "Come now, would I sell my own granny for $1,000?" "I don't know, would you?" "Of course I would!"
23:01:23 <quintopia> coppro: why you callin' the laddie a lassie?
23:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, have ye got the hard drive out of tha computarrr?
23:01:48 <coppro> quintopia: arrrr, ye don't know the legend of alise, do yer?
23:02:15 <SgeoN1> It's been out for a while
23:02:33 <coppro> quintopia: it be best told by the girl herself
23:02:36 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, it be complex, and best be told by the 'man 'imself.
23:03:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:03:18 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:03:26 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: clearly yer didn't be learnin' the morrral o' the tale
23:04:21 <coppro> oerjan: and an 'earrrrty 'ello to you too!
23:05:14 <SgeoN1> Is the HD actually accumulating damage right now?
23:06:50 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:08:25 <zzo38> I added in PicoC into Enhanced CWEB now, so that you can define codes to run at compile time (for CTANGLE only), and you can make a function lossy$() that is executed instead of typing the identifier "lossy" into the output. And, it works.
23:08:42 <oerjan> <quintopia> yeah he would eventually fail, and lose a lot of money
23:08:51 <oerjan> i recall he already failed some times
23:09:13 <SgeoN1> Also, I have no plans on letting the GUI start if I have the HD just be inside the comp
23:09:14 <oerjan> he just hadn't put that on the main page for the challenge
23:09:25 <oerjan> but it was in some comment he made
23:09:52 <oerjan> i don't recall where it was
23:10:38 <oerjan> ah it's that day again. actually it already ended here.
23:11:35 <SgeoN1> Parted Magic shouldn't take that long to boot, really.
23:11:37 <fizzie> 'ts been over for over an hour here already; 'ts +3 here.
23:12:44 <quintopia> in my book, it lasts 2 days, from the moment it begins at the international date line, to the moment it ends on the other side of the same
23:13:00 <quintopia> my logic bein' that a true pirate should no' claim a home port!
23:13:59 <fizzie> Pirates be so arrrrrrogant folk, all about making everyone talk like one.
23:14:20 <quintopia> i actually would rather be a pirates of penzance type pirate
23:14:28 <quintopia> so i can talk like a lord gone astray
23:15:32 <pikhq> quintopia: I suggest ye learn a proper West Country accent!
23:17:15 <pikhq> quintopia: No, West Country is rhotic. And the stereotypical pirate accent.
23:17:27 <pikhq> quintopia: So. "Prroperrr"
23:18:38 <pikhq> It was also used in Pirate of Penzance.
23:19:31 <quintopia> i want to be a dainty pirate captain
23:22:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I also be less surre on whetharr civilisation be survivin' than alise.
23:22:54 <Phantom_Hoover> By this point, a single fall would be the end for a very very very long time. Yarr.
23:23:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Since we be usin' up all the easily accessible resources.
23:25:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: found a link to a discussion (with more links): http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/6k95z/a_transhuman_ai_would_just_convince_you_to_let_it/c04360q
23:28:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: On the other hand, we are leaving *around* a lot of accessible resources.
23:28:32 <oerjan> google conspires to make the mentions of failure rather hard to find if you just search for "yudkowksy aibox" :(
23:28:46 <pikhq> If civilization fell, the next civilization would have a number of things easy.
23:28:54 <oerjan> (especially if you don't _know_ about the failures)
23:28:58 <pikhq> For instance: metal would not need to be mined.
23:29:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but things like coal and oil, which fuelled our technological development, will be much harder to get.
23:30:33 <Phantom_Hoover> And a pile of rust, which is really all that would remain of exposed structures after a surprisingly short time, is not very useful.
23:31:22 <pikhq> Coal and oil were only really primary fuels for the past, oh, hundred years.
23:31:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:32:03 <pikhq> And even concerning coal: for many purposes, it's merely *more convenient* than the alternative.
23:32:23 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, which is also the major period of technological advance.
23:32:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: perhaps it will take a longer _time_ than the industrial revolution because of lack of coal and oil. but there _are_ still environmentally clean energy sources, such as windmills.
23:32:46 <Phantom_Hoover> We went from abacuses to quantum computers in around that timeframe.
23:33:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but it still is plausible that an alternative energy source would be found.
23:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, can you imagine the Industrial Revolution happening with windmills?
23:33:15 -!- augur has joined.
23:33:35 <oerjan> but is going slower even a bad thing? the breakneck speed might be why we got into this much trouble in the first place
23:33:37 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Dude, "past 100 years" *post-dates* the Industrial Revolution.
23:34:29 <Phantom_Hoover> But anyway, it's not at all certain that civilisation will survive on Earth.
23:34:33 <pikhq> The Industrial Revolution could have *easily* happened with wood instead of coal. And a lot of it was actually powered by windmills and water wheels anyways.
23:35:32 <pikhq> So, even assuming no alternative fuel sources could be found (not *that* likely), we'd still get up to Industrial Revolution level tech with mostly renewable/recyclable resources still left.
23:36:15 <pikhq> And I strongly suspect that one could build up to nuclear power from there.
23:37:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, what are you trying to prove by not revealing the nature of the arguments?
23:38:03 <quintopia> if he were still doing it, i'd take the challenge and then reveal the arguments.
23:38:19 <oerjan> i thought it was to prevent "I would never have fallen for that" arguments, i think he said as much
23:38:22 <quintopia> i could een do it without lying, by making someone else doing the promising not to part
23:39:12 <oerjan> "I would never have fallen for that" _is_ a major way of human self-delusion, after all
23:40:42 * oerjan is _much_ more infuriated by the _apparent_ hiding of the failed experiments, in case you didn't guess
23:41:26 <oerjan> although i _suppose_ that could be just an artifact of google's pagerank
23:41:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I also think the gatekeeper is incapable of showing anything meaningful.
23:41:55 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has joined.
23:41:57 <EOF> Phantom_Hoover:
23:41:59 <EOF> Phantom_Hoover:
23:42:19 <EOF> quintopia:
23:42:22 <EOF> quintopia:
23:42:49 * EOF feels like shooting himself
23:42:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:42:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: but i _think_ yudkowsky's basic belief is that an AI would be so resourceful that saying you "would never have fallen for" a particular argument _is_ a dangerous delusion
23:43:18 <oerjan> because the AI could have used a plethora of other methods
23:43:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but this experiment has little to no bearing on any real situation.
23:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> The point might stand; it might not. This experiment is completely useless.
23:43:55 <quintopia> thus we should make sure to have a friendly AI before a malevolent AI gets wise enough to convince its gatekeeper to let it out
23:44:02 <quintopia> then we could have a titan clash of the AIs
23:44:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:44:35 -!- SgeoN2 has joined.
23:45:37 <oerjan> quintopia: a friendly AI would simply prevent an evil one from ever being built, surely
23:45:43 <Sgeo|Empathy> Can I start Ubuntu at the commandline, then from there start x?
23:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> And of course, *without knowing the effing discourse between the participants, the experiment is utterly stupid*
23:45:52 <quintopia> also we need a time machine so we can preemptiveill any scientists that eventually turn out to work on creating malevolent AI
23:46:23 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's like publishing an experiment without publishing the data.
23:46:29 <pikhq> In fact, it *is precisely that*!
23:46:57 <pikhq> About as valid as "I have an elegant proof of this that the margin is too small to contain."
23:47:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The kind of thing Ben Goldacre spends ages picking apart, in fact.
23:47:39 <quintopia> pikhq: at least in this case the experimental result has been verified by several individuals, so it is somewhat more trustworthy than fermat's proof
23:48:18 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:48:42 <quintopia> indeed, i would argue that in this case, it is like publishing the data without publishing the experiment
23:48:51 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: of course yudkowsky and his ilk _are_ fanatically afraid of evil ais, psychologically so even if they are correct
23:48:57 <quintopia> we know how many people fell for it, but not what the actual methodology was
23:49:13 <pikhq> quintopia: Still absolutely unvalid, though.
23:49:47 <quintopia> pikhq: irreproducible at least, but we can imagine the techniques used at least
23:49:49 <oerjan> so you could suspect him of being disingenious on purpose
23:50:01 <pikhq> quintopia: Irreproducible == INVALID
23:50:24 <quintopia> pikhq: the results are NOT invalid, they are just not confirmable. there is a subtle difference
23:50:46 <pikhq> If you can't reproduce it it's invalid.
23:51:16 <quintopia> they can reproduce it. it's just not independently reproducible
23:51:51 <pikhq> Which makes it invalid.
23:51:54 <oerjan> Sgeo|Empathy: his last comment was probably a humoristic way of saying he went to bed
23:52:01 <quintopia> i really don't like your definition
23:52:09 <pikhq> Then you really don't like science.
23:52:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:52:35 <Sgeo|Empathy> But I can just go into the console when X is starting, I guess
23:52:39 <oerjan> Sgeo|Empathy: hey i did the same thing :D
23:53:07 <Sgeo|Empathy> I guess, before doing anything else, I should figure out the exact commands I'll be using
23:53:25 <quintopia> you can't invalidate a result by not explaining what the result was. it's still a result. it just isn't a widely understood one.
23:53:36 <pikhq> quintopia: Their claims are as scientifically legitimate as publishing data purpoting that saying magic words (they won't say which) summons God 10 times out of 10.
23:54:13 <quintopia> in other words, possibly completely legitimate and valid, but we'll never know if that's the case
23:54:28 <pikhq> Precisely. And that *makes it invalid*.
23:54:42 <Sgeo|Empathy> There's no reason to not let X load while I do the ddrescue stuff, right?
23:54:46 <quintopia> and not knowing whether god exists makes god not exist?
23:55:14 <pikhq> It makes it invalid *as an experiment*.
23:55:35 <pikhq> An experiment can readily have correct results while still being invalid.
23:55:48 <pikhq> Much like a proof can have correct results while still being invalid.
23:55:57 <quintopia> this confuses me greatly. how is it that an invalid experiment could *suddenly become valid* just as soon as its results are published?
23:56:20 <quintopia> i could see an unconfirmed but valid experiment being confirmed valid on this occasion
23:56:24 <zzo38> quintopia: It depend what you meant by "agnostics" or "atheists", but I consider it different.
23:56:35 <quintopia> as well as an unconfirmed invalid experiment being confirmed invalid
23:56:56 <zzo38> I also consider different that the different athesists and different agnostics even have different opinions of their own atheism/agnosticism.
23:57:00 <quintopia> zzo38: can i get on your speech analysis plot?
23:57:07 <zzo38> (I myself, am agnostic, if it cares)
23:57:28 <zzo38> quintopia: I have no speech analysis plot. If I make one though, everyone relevant will be on it (including you).
23:57:37 <pikhq> quintopia: In order to be valid as an experiment, it *must be testable*. This is about as essential to science as the idea that reality can be observed.
23:58:09 <quintopia> pikhq: this is a tewstable hypothesis, and it has been tested. independently verifiable != testable
23:58:11 <Sgeo|Empathy> Should I set "Spin down hard disks when possible"?
23:58:11 <pikhq> Without being testable, an experiment might as well be the rantings of a drunk hobo.
23:58:18 <zzo38> pikhq: You are correct about experiments. If the experiment does nothing, how can you do anything relevant with it?
23:58:27 <quintopia> zzo38: who was it who posted the speech analysis plots :/
23:58:47 <zzo38> quintopia: Look it up in the logs, I don't remember either
23:58:57 <pikhq> quintopia: Independently verifiable is a necessary but not sufficient condition of being testable.
23:59:24 <quintopia> pikhq: indeed, if an independent group can replicate their results using their own slightly-different methods, would the experiments together still be collectively invalid to you?
23:59:36 <pikhq> If they don't publish their methods?
23:59:46 <pikhq> As far as I'm concerned, it's a second group of drunk hobos.
00:00:10 <zzo38> If they don't publish their methods, you cannot know what the experiment means at all, if in fact there is one, which there might not be!
00:00:15 <quintopia> and if 10000 independent groups all reproduced those results, all without publishing the methods?
00:00:22 <pikhq> 10,000 drunk hobos.
00:00:46 <quintopia> but i don't see how you can argue in that case that the result has not been independently verified
00:01:06 <pikhq> It's 10,000 completely different experiments which claim to be the same.
00:01:07 <quintopia> the basic structure of the experiment is the same, and it is that structure that makes the desired argument
00:01:20 <pikhq> None of which can be reproduced.
00:01:29 <pikhq> And, indeed, could be quite easily *made up*.
00:01:34 <pikhq> As such, 10,000 drunk hobos.
00:01:48 <fizzie> If you're talking about my plots the answer is "no, because I just went to sleep". (The features those plots used also need quite a lot of comments before they start to make sense at all.)
00:01:58 <quintopia> they can only be *made up* if 10000*x test subjects can all be convinced to lie
00:02:12 <pikhq> Indeed. And perhaps they could.
00:02:22 <pikhq> Or perhaps those test subjects don't exist.
00:02:29 <pikhq> Perhaps, in fact, it's merely claimed they exist.
00:02:42 <quintopia> ah, and they're all actually sock puppets?
00:03:06 <quintopia> well if you're going to argue that, then seeing the logs of the conversations will not convince you either
00:03:07 <pikhq> And I certainly couldn't test it with real people myself, because *I don't even know what they claimed to do*.
00:03:14 <quintopia> because it would just be someone talking to himself
00:03:27 <pikhq> See, with logs of the conversations just about anyone could *do it themselves*.
00:03:49 <pikhq> There could, in fact, be someone testing it and going "That's weird, absolutely *none of that* happened."
00:03:51 <quintopia> unless their subjects had also seen such logs and as such were not fooled
00:04:30 <pikhq> "We tested that gravity exists. Yes." This is as equally valid as this experiment. Namely, *it's a fucking hobo*.
00:04:59 <pikhq> Or perhaps you would prefer "We tested that gravity exists. In fact, it's God."
00:05:22 <quintopia> so, do you think that every published experiment that you have not, as yet, independently tried yourself, is nonsense?
00:05:31 <quintopia> i'm sure you take a leap of faith somewhere
00:05:49 <pikhq> No. However, it's complete and utter nonsense unless I could, in fact, *decide not to take it on faith*.
00:05:59 <zzo38> pikhq: Such a statement "We tested that gravity exists. In fact, it's God." is not even meaningful statement. It explains nothing about gravity or about God, or about the experiment you have performed.
00:06:41 <quintopia> pikhq: you could probably do that in this case anyway. just ask them what the methods used were on pain of death if you reveal them, and try them out
00:07:03 <pikhq> quintopia: But not necessarily.
00:07:20 <pikhq> As such, it's not science, but A MOTHERFUCKING HOBO.
00:07:41 <quintopia> as such, you clearly don't care whether or not it is a hobo, since you haven't tried
00:07:50 <pikhq> I don't even care if every single thing said hobo says turns out to be true, ITS STILL A FUCKING HOBO.
00:08:13 <pikhq> I shall beat you with the full disclosure stick.
00:08:18 <quintopia> if a drunken hobo has the secret to a GUT, i want to know about it
00:08:24 <Sgeo|Empathy> The sky is blue. I know this because magical unicorns told me so.
00:08:38 <pikhq> quintopia: Learn. About. Science. NOW.
00:09:00 <quintopia> if there are enough reasons to believe that the hobo is not a crock of shit, i will go ask the hobo myself
00:09:10 <pikhq> quintopia: LEARN ABOUT SCIENCE NOW
00:09:39 <pikhq> Yes. Morons do that.
00:09:57 <pikhq> Now learn about science or forevermore sound like a moron who thinks 2+2=þ
00:10:24 <Sgeo|Empathy> quintopia: The sky is, at least sometimes, blue. Grass is often green.
00:10:57 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, right, I forgot about your 123þ counting system. :P
00:11:59 <Gregor> pikhq: Just part of my base-ð numbering system.
00:14:09 <quintopia> i see the semantic difference between our definitions of valid now. you're talking about results being validated to the general science community, whereas i'm talking about an experiment being valid as a thing-in-itself. the latter is the precursor to the former with transmutation occurring upon publication of methodologies.
00:14:48 <pikhq> quintopia: Okay, so I'm talking about the useful definition and you're talking about the irrelevant one.
00:16:17 <Gregor> That's it. Time to make a stand.
00:16:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric topics in computing and programming languages | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:16:47 <Gregor> A stand on a completely unrelated topic.
00:16:57 <pikhq> OH MY I CANT BELIEVE YOU DID THAT
00:17:02 <Gregor> Or rather, a stand on a completely unrelated issue.
00:17:26 <Gregor> Henceforth I decree that #esoteric is for esoteric topics in computing, not just esoteric programming languages :P
00:19:30 <Sgeo|Empathy> Then once that's done, -r3 to attempt the error-laden stuff?
00:21:08 <quintopia> pikhq: it's a useful distinction to make nonetheless
00:21:47 <pikhq> quintopia: Yes, the distinction between a hobo saying correct things and a scientist saying correct things.
00:21:54 <pikhq> Please, don't encourage the hobos.
00:22:29 -!- augur has joined.
00:24:54 <quintopia> pikhq: not the distinction i was going for here, but an interesting strawman
00:28:09 -!- Sgeo|Empathy has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:29:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:30:04 <quintopia> to be clearer in the future, i shall refer to the yudkowsky experiments as "validatable" rather than "valid"
00:33:57 <nooga> i'm playing gramophone diagonally
00:34:10 -!- alise has joined.
00:34:26 <nooga> 01:33 < nooga> i'm playing gramophone diagonally
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00:35:56 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
00:36:10 <alise> 14:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Extrapolating Moore's law infinitely as evidence for a singularity seems... dodgy.
00:36:14 <alise> only Kurzweil does that
00:36:31 <alise> 14:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> And the fact that the good old laws of thermodynamics have *already* started to cap processor clock speeds.
00:36:41 <alise> general consensus is that any sane seed AI is going to convert itself to nanotech asap
00:36:48 <alise> 14:48:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, we can probably push quite a bit further, but not indefinitely.
00:36:52 <alise> you don't need infinite power.
00:37:04 <nooga> vinyl records are awesome
00:37:05 <alise> 14:49:26 <quintopia> adiabatic computing could go a long way toward stepping past current heat-related limitations
00:37:08 <SgeoN1> Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it!
00:37:08 <SgeoN1> Stop trying to boot from the HD!
00:37:10 <alise> WARNING: Adiabatic computing is quackery
00:37:23 <nooga> psychedelic metal on vinym records is doubly awesome
00:38:08 <pikhq> Anyone got any idea how "error: unable to fork: Cannot allocate memory" could happen with plenty of memory?
00:38:21 <alise> pikhq: too many procs?
00:38:27 <alise> limited memory space allocated to proc table?
00:39:04 <pikhq> alise: A mere 56 procs running.
00:39:16 <nooga> i've got 2 running
00:39:22 <pikhq> nooga: No, you don't.
00:39:37 <pikhq> Your system is *definitely* running more than 2.
00:39:45 <pikhq> Even if your current *shell* is not.
00:39:49 <SgeoN1> It's randomly refusing to boot into the USB!
00:40:16 <SgeoN1> Maybe I should boot from CD? But then, if Ubuntu, there's even more delay installing ddrescuee
00:40:35 * pikhq turns off nested paging in VirtualBox
00:41:25 <pikhq> Nope, that didn't do it.
00:42:24 <SgeoN1> Well, that could only have resulted in more damage to the hd
00:42:25 <alise> on TV program "I've Got a Secret": [[GSN ran a revival from April 17 to June 9, 2006 with an all-gay panel.]]
00:42:38 <alise> "Let's revive 'I've Got a Secret'... but with GAY."
00:43:06 <quintopia> how many virtualboxen can one nest on a reasonable system before losing interactivity in the inner containers?
00:44:11 <pikhq> quintopia: With the virtualisation extensions, "a lot".
00:46:17 <SgeoN1> Finally found the Ubuntu CD
00:46:51 <alise> 14:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> We'll be right with some things, but wrong with many, many more.
00:47:01 <alise> which is why the Singularity is defined at precisely the point where we have no fucking idea what will happen
00:47:13 <alise> (by definition, when a seed AI surpasses human intelligence)
00:47:44 <quintopia> i think a lot of our guesses are ace though
00:47:53 <SgeoN1> I don't have the external mount
00:48:00 <SgeoN1> The HD is inside the cokputee
00:48:02 <quintopia> AI-controlled super-economies moving at the speed of light
00:48:08 <pikhq> qemu is rather slow without virtualisation extensions. And I'm too lazy to get KVM set up.
00:48:11 <pikhq> (that involves rebooting)
00:48:18 <quintopia> humans becoming happy complacent pawns in a machine they don't understand
00:48:50 <SgeoN1> I'll need to install ddrescue
00:48:50 <pikhq> Okay, this may actually be *too slow*.
00:49:24 <SgeoN1> Which requires putting in the wireless password, which requires x, unless you can give me a tutorial right now about doing that from the commandline
00:50:14 <SgeoN1> Alise, any lightning fast tutorial?
00:50:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: New kernel!).
00:50:39 <SgeoN1> Connecting to wifi from commandline
00:50:46 <alise> SgeoN1: Plug in an Ethernet cable.
00:50:59 <alise> It is basically impossible to do without a graphical tool.
00:51:52 <SgeoN1> This things ability to boot from USB is sporadic at beat
00:52:21 <SgeoN1> What do you mean 0 matching items???????
00:52:23 <alise> SgeoN1: You have no idea what parts of the disk are valuable, right?
00:52:37 <alise> package is "ddrescue"
00:52:58 <alise> quintopia: economies?
00:53:01 <alise> In a post-scarce world? Why?
00:53:23 <alise> SgeoN1: Wait, it may actually be gone.
00:53:58 <alise> SgeoN1: How old is the drive?
00:54:03 <quintopia> alise: post-scarcity? wtf? there are always limitations on material, and a lot of material will be needed to fuel the AI overlords' need for memory and compute power
00:54:04 -!- FireFly has joined.
00:54:29 <alise> quintopia: The AI can sustain itself; nobody else needs those resources.
00:54:36 <SgeoN1> Ubuntu is set to spin down disks when unneeded. Wait, no it's not
00:54:49 <quintopia> alise: are you assuming a single AI?
00:55:03 <alise> quintopia: That is the only possible outcome.
00:55:14 <quintopia> i think even a single AI, sufficiently distributed, would compete with itself for resources
00:55:33 <alise> If there are two Friendly AIs, they will merge. If there are two un-Friendly AIs, we're fucked anyway. If there is a Friendly AI and an un-Friendly AI, whichever started first or improved faster wins.
00:55:44 <alise> After an AI has established power, it will be able to prevent another AI from being created.
00:55:54 <alise> SgeoN1: Is it installed?
00:56:03 <SgeoN1> Ddrescue is not autocompleting
00:56:12 <alise> SgeoN1: This is more important first.
00:56:16 <alise> SgeoN1: What media are you going to back up to?
00:56:16 -!- EOF has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:56:18 <SgeoN1> Ugh, do I really want DD_rescue?
00:56:18 <quintopia> alise: what if friendly AIs get lonely not having other higher intelligences to philosophize with?
00:56:23 <alise> You really want ddrescue.
00:56:26 <alise> You really, really want ddrescue.
00:56:30 <alise> SgeoN1: It is big enough, right?
00:56:50 <alise> quintopia: You are anthropomorphising. There is no reason an AI would have any desire to do those things.
00:56:59 <alise> SgeoN1: Mount the external HD. DO NOT MOUNT THE BROKEN HD.
00:57:33 <alise> SgeoN1: dd_rescue != ddrescue, btw
00:57:35 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:57:37 <alise> I'm assuming we're using GNU ddrescue here.
00:58:03 <SgeoN1> -n to get the easy stuff, -r3 for the rest, right?
00:58:06 <alise> SgeoN1: Am I right in thinking you have no idea where the valuable stuff is?
00:58:09 <alise> Hey, I'm trying to help you here.
00:58:18 <alise> Okay, are you in the mounted external HD?
00:58:38 <quintopia> alise: you are deanthropomorphizing, there is no reason a human-created AI wouldn't have those tendencies grandfathered in
00:58:48 <SgeoN1> Physically, or directorywise?
00:58:54 <alise> quintopia: Coding an AI to feel loneliness would be a near-fatal mistake.
00:58:59 <quintopia> also, in general, there is no reason an AI would NOT have those desires
00:59:00 <alise> And it would certainly not be Friendly.
00:59:02 <alise> SgeoN1: Directorywise.
00:59:11 <alise> quintopia: Please read "Creating Friendly AI". Thanks.
00:59:28 <quintopia> alise: it's long. ijust started but i don't have time tonight
00:59:38 <SgeoN1> Documents and Settings, and one or two files in the root, I think
00:59:48 <zzo38> CWEB treats words like "elif" which are preprocessor commands as reserved words, but are they reserved words?
00:59:50 <alise> quintopia: Well, your opinion about loneliness is very wrong. I suggest finishing CFAI :P
01:00:02 <alise> SgeoN1: That's not helpful; you need to know sectors and shit. Okay, right, so, cd into the external HD.
01:00:05 <quintopia> in any case, there are other reasons an AI might want multiple versions of itself, or independent copies simultaneously running competing for resources etc.
01:00:21 <SgeoN1> You said directorywise
01:00:31 <alise> SgeoN1: I meant directorywise as far as cding.
01:00:43 <quintopia> loneliness was a stupid way of putting it. i was simplifying an uber-intelligences motivations for a human audience
01:00:46 <alise> SgeoN1: It is partitioned, right? The rescuable disk.
01:00:57 <SgeoN1> I think I know what to do
01:01:06 <alise> SgeoN1: Erm, let's stick to the plan here.
01:01:08 <SgeoN1> Ddrescue -n oldhd imgfile logfile
01:01:09 <alise> You could permanently break your disk.
01:01:20 <alise> SgeoN1: It is sda, right?
01:01:42 <SgeoN1> Ddrescue -r3 Oldfield mewing logfile
01:01:44 <SgeoN1> With a semicolon in betweeen?
01:01:52 <alise> SgeoN1: Please answer my question.
01:02:12 <alise> I need to know if it's partitioned.
01:03:18 <SgeoN1> I typed stuff in, dammit
01:03:55 <SgeoN1> /Dev/sda1 /Dev/sea /Dev/sda4
01:04:21 <alise> Okay, let's just rescue the entire thing.
01:04:24 <alise> Your partition table looks fucked.
01:04:30 <alise> Just checking pikhq agrees.
01:04:40 <SgeoN1> What's wrong with the ddrescue commands I typed?
01:04:55 <alise> Well, definitely don't run them automatically after another, and the latter one is wrong.
01:04:58 <alise> Can you just be patient?
01:04:58 <pikhq> Your partition table looks weird.
01:05:04 <alise> pikhq: So let's just rescue the whole disk?
01:05:05 <pikhq> That's *valid* but weird.
01:05:08 <alise> Not the individual partitions.
01:05:10 <pikhq> alise: I'd say "yeah".
01:05:11 <alise> I mean, he has dropped the thing.
01:05:18 <alise> SgeoN1: Okay, type this very precisely and hit enter:
01:05:19 <pikhq> See what ddrescue gets.
01:05:29 <alise> sudo ddrescue --no-split /dev/sda imagefile logfile
01:05:45 <alise> It will flag up a ton of errors, I bet.
01:05:57 <SgeoN1> I didn't put the euro in
01:06:48 <quintopia> i'ma have to leave now or forever hold my lameness
01:08:10 <alise> SgeoN1: Is it going?
01:08:25 <SgeoN1> And errors are coming up
01:08:51 <SgeoN1> How long will this take?
01:09:02 <pikhq> Anywhere from hours to days.
01:09:15 <pikhq> It's a function of how fucked up the drive is.
01:09:32 <SgeoN1> Ok then. What do I do when it's done? What was wrong with NY second command?
01:09:33 <alise> SgeoN1: And now, BOOKMARK THIS URL IN YOUR MOBILE BROWSER:
01:09:34 <alise> http://pastie.org/1169085.txt?key=cmgt84evfis2qjczs7cg
01:09:42 <alise> It has all the instructions for after that, very precisely written out.
01:10:05 <alise> This will get you a drive in your hand that has your old drive on it.
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01:11:03 <pikhq> Except with more of the data readily accessible.
01:11:10 <SgeoN1> Can I proceed to use Ubuntu normally in the meantime?
01:12:25 <alise> pikhq: Yes, just don't touch the drive.
01:12:27 <pikhq> Oh, and if you ever need to restart the job, just rerun the ddrescue command. It'll pick up from where it left off.
01:12:37 <alise> But that's not how you deal with errors.
01:12:49 <alise> SgeoN1: Type this URL in your Ubuntu browser very carefully then put it on the desktop or whatever so you don't lose it:
01:12:52 <pikhq> Yeah, it's just how you deal with "I need to shut off my computer".
01:12:53 <alise> http://pastie.org/1169085.txt?key=cmgt84evfis2qjczs7cg
01:12:57 <alise> If you want a shorter URL i can get that.
01:13:12 <alise> http://bit.ly/bmW8YW
01:13:14 <alise> PUT THIS ON YOUR DESKTOP.
01:13:34 <SgeoN1> What's wrong with leaving it on the phone?
01:14:19 <alise> SgeoN1: Well, that works too.
01:14:26 <alise> I just thought it'd be easier to copy-and-paste from the main machine.
01:18:02 <SgeoN1> This is going to take a while, isn't it?
01:19:25 <alise> SgeoN1: How big is the drive?
01:20:07 <alise> SgeoN1: 17.59 hours.
01:20:13 <alise> SgeoN1: I assume it's still spewing errors?
01:20:27 <alise> SgeoN1: If so, then that won't be the end of it, since you'll still have the second and maybe even the third command to run.
01:20:32 <alise> And you might even have to increase the retries on that.
01:20:34 <SgeoN1> And the average speed keeps going down
01:20:47 <alise> SgeoN1: You can, as pikhq said, just terminate it and continue it later using *exactly the same* command.
01:20:53 <alise> (Check the logs if you do so do get it exact.)
01:21:06 <alise> Might be prudent to overnight it, though.
01:21:11 <alise> SgeoN1: How big's the external drive?
01:21:39 <SgeoN1> Hey, I can keep using the computer while it goes, so what's the problem? Just don't take the computer on my lap
01:22:53 <alise> SgeoN1: Will you be awake in 17 hours?
01:23:04 <alise> Also, yeah, keep the computer SEATED AT A TABLE FOREVER.
01:24:32 <alise> oerjan: i have an idea
01:24:42 <alise> let's stop enforcing Graue's ludicrous category policy
01:25:37 <SgeoN1> Is having Ubuntus thing to spin down disks when posssble acceptable?
01:27:02 <alise> oerjan: well, hey, it's an idea.
01:27:07 <alise> SgeoN1: don't worry. that disk will never get spun down.
01:27:13 <alise> and it being spinned down is good
01:27:30 <oerjan> alise: given how annoying i just found out it was _renaming_ a category, let's not
01:28:19 <SgeoN1> I seem to have access to a VMS system
01:30:22 <SgeoN1> Any ideas on what I can do to explore it?
01:31:11 <SgeoN1> Average rate went down to 707
01:33:22 <oerjan> SgeoN1: you might try the help command
01:34:01 * oerjan recalls it was wonderfully hierarchical
01:34:48 <SgeoN1> For all I know, this is what runs the school's main ... styff
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01:35:50 <oerjan> it even included individual commands for some programming languages
01:36:42 * oerjan recalls there was a lisp
01:39:13 <oerjan> i think it was pascal that had the individual command thing
01:39:18 <SgeoN1> This is going to take a very long time, isn't it?
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01:55:29 <SgeoN1> About 3 and a half days
01:56:32 <SgeoN1> Most of the data I don't honestly care about
01:56:52 <SgeoN1> Any way to, say, use TestDisk and just take only what I really care about?
01:59:25 <alise> Maaybe. I'd just do this.
02:00:18 <SgeoN1> I wonder if my professor would be ok with me not bringing my laptop in on Monday
02:00:27 <SgeoN1> I can still do work from my phone
02:02:15 <SgeoN1> If the average goes down to 3.3 KB/s or so, may I give up?
02:03:00 <pikhq> Wow. It is estimated the LSD of marijuana is 1500 *pounds*.
02:03:19 <pikhq> Amusing slip there.
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02:05:43 <oerjan> so basically it's lethal only by crushing the victim?
02:06:00 <pikhq> oerjan: Or via carbon monoxide.
02:06:09 <SgeoN1> Afaict, so far, 99.5% of the data is being saved
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02:11:29 <SgeoN1> Awesome. Ubuntu thinks it's Puppy Linux
02:11:29 <SgeoN1> With Flash crashing every two seconds
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02:29:01 <SgeoN1> How long a wait is too long?
02:29:42 <SgeoN1> It occurs to me that I have an ancient computer that I could devote to the task
02:31:19 <zzo38> You forgot the rule of two and a half
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02:37:12 <zzo38> And also the rule of five!!
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02:46:10 <tswett> Who invented kilgame? Was it lament?
02:46:36 * oerjan thought he hadn't seen warrigal for a while
02:46:50 <tswett> No, I don't think you've seen me for a while.
02:47:28 <tswett> kilgame was this IRC game where you had a "kill" command so that you could shoot people, and you can only shoot once every 60 seconds, and once you're shot by two different people you're out of the game.
02:48:08 * oerjan doesn't recall ever seeing it
02:49:22 <oerjan> clearly you are an evil tswett from an alternate dimension
02:50:01 <tswett> Would I do such a thing?
02:50:10 <tswett> I can't believe you'd accuse me of this.
02:50:49 <oerjan> well since kilgame doesn't exist in this universe (although there are other games by the same name), that is the only reasonable explanation.
02:51:40 <oerjan> in fact ""kilgame" irc" gives _no_ google hits
02:51:56 <oerjan> (nor does ""kilgame" site:tunes.org")
02:52:47 <tswett> "<ihope> oklopol: I see you've managed to get #kilbot."
02:53:04 <tswett> That was... whatever day 07.07.06 is.
02:54:04 <tswett> I'm connected from arch06.cis.gvsu.edu; who else could it be?
02:54:06 * SgeoN1 is close to falling asleep
02:54:39 <SgeoN1> Brought about by lack of restfulbsleep
02:54:43 <tswett> Being close to falling asleep is a fun hallucinogen.
02:55:09 * tswett attempts to determine oklopol's real name.
02:55:13 <tswett> If Agora doesn't know, nobody knows.
02:55:25 <SgeoN1> And I want to just take a nap
02:56:24 <oerjan> tswett: ok that does help your case somewhat
02:56:39 * oerjan still has onokki somewhere
02:56:57 <oerjan> of course i haven't really deleted anything since then, so not surprising
03:01:01 <oerjan> tswett: see msg (he doesn't really want it in the open iirc)
03:05:27 <SgeoN1> It is currently projected to take 7.5 weeks.....
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03:06:11 <oerjan> SgeoN1: you should start getting _really_ worried when it says INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER
03:06:18 <SgeoN2> Erm, 7 weeks and half a day
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03:07:19 <SgeoN2> The guiding motive for the Singularity AI is recovering my data
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03:13:05 <SgeoN2> Is the speed at all a function of other stuff that I'm doing with the computer?
03:13:58 <oerjan> no, it just senses your fear of it stalling
03:14:58 <SgeoN2> I'm more afraid of it taking years
03:15:14 <oerjan> THEN THAT'S WHAT IT WILL DO
03:17:21 <SgeoN2> I wonder if it's an old version
03:17:48 <SgeoN2> I.e. whatever Puppy Linux ships with
03:19:14 <SgeoN2> It's fun to crash in Sgeo's face! Come on just do segfault; crash in Sgeo's face
03:19:32 <SgeoN2> Ok, it's the newest version
03:22:39 <SgeoN2> Now that I closed a bunch of stuff, it's speedinbhp
03:24:42 <SgeoN2> I can just Ctrl-C this, right?
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03:25:30 <SgeoN1> I appear to be unable to end it
03:26:29 <SgeoN1> ddrescue --no-split /dev/sda imagefile logfile
03:27:40 <SgeoN1> Oh look, everything works now
03:28:04 <SgeoN1> Ill reissue the command before I go to sleep
03:28:16 <SgeoN1> Is there a way to be certain that the HD is spun down?
03:28:39 <SgeoN1> Any easy way to check?
03:30:54 <calamari-> oh, I was expecting you to look into it a bit more than issuing a command lol
03:31:11 <calamari-> I think the package is smartmontools
03:46:38 <SgeoN1> I take it that that is not, in fact, spun down?
03:47:22 <SgeoN1> Um. I think ill take the HD out then just set up my old comp
03:47:25 <calamari-> you can do a -B 1 to have aggressive power saving
03:47:59 <calamari-> Check the current IDE power mode status, which will always be
03:47:59 <calamari-> one of unknown (drive does not support this command),
03:47:59 <calamari-> active/idle (normal operation), standby (low power mode, drive
03:47:59 <calamari-> has spun down), or sleeping (lowest power mode, drive is com‐
03:47:59 <calamari-> pletely shut down). The -S, -y, -Y, and -Z flags can be used to
03:48:09 <SgeoN1> The reason I want it spun down is to avoid damaging it further
03:51:31 <calamari-> well it worked, but since the machine is probably writing tothe drive all the time, it just powered back up immediately.. cool tho
03:52:42 <SgeoN1> This thing will boot from USB only when it wants to
03:56:01 <SgeoN1> I can't figure out why it wont boot
03:56:22 <SgeoN1> Is there a way to have the Ubuntu LiveCD check the USB for data files
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04:28:28 <zzo38> I don't like the \outer command
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04:29:31 <trinithis> http://www.thathigh.com/story/2776983/
04:32:02 <zzo38> Something I found out about TeX, is that the \csname command will cause the named control sequence to be equivalent to \relax is that control sequence is currently undefined.
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04:40:11 <SgeoN1> How is it almost Monday already?
04:40:37 <oerjan> what do you mean "almost", you bloody american
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04:42:01 * trinithis wonders if augur can forsee his own quitting
04:42:07 <SgeoN1> The fricking fuck. It felt like Friday or Saturday
04:43:05 <SgeoN1> I had hoped to take a shower on the wekend, (no hot water in this house)
04:43:32 <SgeoN1> I don't know I'd I even have clean clothing
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05:08:40 <SgeoN1> How do I see what processes are using a filesystem?
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05:16:16 <quintopia> oh, Sgeo is discovering the magic of lsof
05:16:30 <quintopia> you can also use it to find who's listening on which port you know
05:23:23 <zzo38> I have idea, of a new programming language with similar use as C, but different syntax, and that takes things from: TeX, C, Forth, WEB, and assembler.
05:24:27 <zzo38> From C: Data types, structures, preprocessor macros, preprocessor include, unions, pointers, function pointers, storage classes, arrays.
05:24:51 <zzo38> From TeX: Category codes (and the ability to change them during compile time), and penalties (which you can insert anywhere in the program).
05:25:44 <zzo38> From Forth: reverse polish notation, immediate words, ability to create new control structures like Forth, ability to create parsers for reading a few extra words after a command.
05:26:33 <SgeoN1> Does casper-rw not work anymore?
05:26:35 <zzo38> O, and also explicit command to tell it you want to retrieve the value of a variable, by writing @ sign after the address (or name of variable, or something else).
05:28:23 <zzo38> From assembly language: Ability to enter direct CPU instructions/registers/etc, and things close to it but that might be more cross-platform.
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05:30:46 <quintopia> is the goal to produce something really usable?
05:32:46 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes it would be usable.
05:33:05 <zzo38> And it would also have commands to have a lot of control over the optimizer and other things if needed.
05:47:23 <zzo38> When programming in TeX, I often find it useful to change category codes in the middle of the file, sometimes conditionally.
05:47:48 <quintopia> i, uh, just use the conference-provided templates >.>
05:48:12 <zzo38> quintopia: What conference-provided templates?
05:49:10 <quintopia> APA use the same one for all their journals i think
05:49:51 <zzo38> OK. I don't write TeX documents for conferences or journals, I write them for myself, so I just use Plain TeX, and then add whatever macros and other things are needed for the file I am writing.
05:50:21 <zzo38> I don't like to use LaTeX, because I prefer Plain TeX.
05:51:22 <zzo38> I sometimes find it very useful to change category codes temporarily for use with the \read and \write commands, and sometimes have a file include itself.
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05:52:22 <quintopia> what's the minimum one would need to do to make plain TeX turing-complete?
05:52:51 <mycroftiv> add a brainfuck eval() via an escape sequence
05:53:04 <mycroftiv> maybe thats not the type of answer you were looking for though
05:53:35 <quintopia> that seems like far too much to add
05:53:47 <quintopia> since the thing you are adding is turing-complete in itself
05:53:58 <mycroftiv> its a deliberately degenerate solution
05:54:23 <zzo38> quintopia: TeX is turing complete. You just have to know how to program it!
05:54:53 <mycroftiv> postscript is turing complete also, isnt it?
05:57:20 <zzo38> I could write a brainfuck interpreter in TeX, or other things, if I wanted to. You can also see the yesweb codes for an example of a full program in TeX.
05:58:00 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/BYYJ
05:58:51 <zzo38> This program shows a lot of techniques of programming in TeX.
05:59:50 <zzo38> Here is an example file using yesweb: http://sprunge.us/aADQ
06:00:19 <zzo38> This example file generates two things: a printed document, and a C source code file.
06:00:48 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Yes, Postscript is
06:01:04 <mycroftiv> i recall a cute story from a friend who had a job doing university IT
06:01:27 <quintopia> is yesweb some kind of macro system built on top of TeX?
06:01:32 <mycroftiv> some clever comp sci student decided to print out tickets to some event that had a lot of algorithmically generated using postscript
06:01:44 <zzo38> Actually this example file generates a printed document and two C source files, "hello.c" and "goodbye.c".
06:01:56 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, yesweb is a kind of macro system built on top of TeX.
06:02:05 <mycroftiv> the IT lab printer seemed to be 'frozen' for hours and then suddenly came to life printing out tickets where each ticket had a huge amount of unique data procedurally generated
06:02:08 <zzo38> It is implemented entirely in TeX.
06:04:42 <zzo38> It does a few strange things, such as temporarily making the lowercase "n" into a comment character (like "%" is normally).
06:06:07 <zzo38> The stuff between \z and @z is verbatim text, everything there treats all characters as normal characters.
06:07:09 <zzo38> The exception is the \webescape character, which must be doubled if you want to include that character verbatim. (Normally an at sign, but it can be changed using the \webescape command.)
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06:09:28 <zzo38> The stuff in between \z and @z will be printed in monospace text with a border around it, and will also be copied to the output files (which in this case have the ".c" extension, but they don't have to be C codes, they can be any text files).
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06:09:38 <zzo38> Looping works in TeX using the \loop ... \repeat commands.
06:10:17 <zzo38> You can have like \loop\ABC\iftrue\XYZ\repeat so you can have codes both before and after the condition.
06:11:39 <zzo38> That is how you can do loops in TeX.
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06:16:23 <zzo38> You might like to know that loops are not built-in to primitive TeX. Plain TeX is a macro package implemented in primitive TeX, and Plain TeX defines the commands for loops.
06:20:01 <quintopia> but Plain TeX is written entirely in TeX?
06:23:04 <pikhq> It's the macros that TeX ships with to make it at least *somewhat* usable.
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06:27:18 <quintopia> http://stashbox.org/729975/nooooo.jpg
06:27:47 <SgeoN1> Primitive Tex doesn't have loops but loops can be made in it? Is this similar to if else then not being builtin to Forth?
06:29:32 <pikhq> SgeoN1: Very much so.
06:44:25 <zzo38> SgeoN1: Yes, like that.
06:44:51 <zzo38> (Some Forth systems do have IF ELSE THEN built-in, others do not. In the ones that do not, you can implement them.)
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07:02:30 <zzo38> yesweb contains various strange things, but it is how TeX works. It changes category codes a lot, changes output routines, has macros that redefine themself and other macros, macros that call themself, macros that define macros that define macros that define other macros, the \expandafter command and \csname commands are used a bunch of times.....
07:02:51 <zzo38> Actually, I find the \expandafter and \csname commands useful when using TeX.
07:03:21 <zzo38> How often do *you* use those commands?
07:06:48 <Vorpal> <Sgeo|Empathy> Vorpal: you awake? <-- morning
07:07:52 <Vorpal> zzo38, never used them in LaTeX
07:08:04 <Vorpal> (and I don't use plain text directly)
07:09:43 <zzo38> Vorpal: OK. But I must say I find Plain TeX *much* better than LaTeX. I also find LaTeX bloated and stuff.
07:11:09 <SgeoN1> I think I wanted to ask something about the HD issue
07:11:35 <SgeoN1> But right now, it's again out of the comp, will be using old computer to do the stuff
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07:48:09 <wareya> I'm a free market communist
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09:11:05 <Phantom_Hoover> 16:47:01 <alise> which is why the Singularity is defined at precisely the point where we have no fucking idea what will happen ← true, but you presuppose many things about it which aren't as certain as made out.
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10:02:40 <fizzie> Whoa, why hadn't I seen the awesomeity of http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html before? (Caution: is probably not the fastest thing ever if you actually want to run something.)
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11:55:34 <fizzie> Heh, here are typical sentences from alise and Vorpal:
11:55:36 <fizzie> >>> str(h_a.sampleSingle(50))
11:55:36 <fizzie> 'celt fstuooslk cikmwpe boaa,stblgcneinn, Ahu-onrts'
11:55:36 <fizzie> >>> str(h_v.sampleSingle(50))
11:55:36 <fizzie> "olsbioa1ce btkdus aeae boeee fh rie> w)ne 2n'l wec"
12:02:31 <fizzie> Why, for fun, of course.
12:12:50 <fizzie> No, for classificationary purposes.
12:13:00 <fizzie> Though it doesn't work really *that* well.
12:15:02 <fizzie> Those same h_a/h_v models that generated that nonsense up there classified 61% of alise-comments as alise, and 71% of Vorpal-comments as Vorpal; that's not very much better than random chance. But at least it does something sensible for a single comment, unlike the book-authorship statistics, which need bazillion lines before they can make any sort of sensible decisions at all.
12:16:35 <fizzie> Could try with a lot larger models, there's certainly enough training data. Those were 14-state discrete-emission HMM's with this sort of constrained structure -- http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/hmm.png -- and initial transition probs; and uniform-distribution emissions in each state before training.
12:16:58 <fizzie> I like the "Ahu-onrts" bit, though.
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13:25:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, you would have thought someone would have made some kind of jetpack, but noooooo.
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13:31:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean they haven't made jetpacks? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetpack -- "Jet pack T-73, flight time 9 minutes, max distance 11 miles, ~83 mph, $200,000 incl. training".
13:33:51 <fizzie> (Not that they actually sell one anywhere, but still.)
13:36:16 <fizzie> (What a silly question.)
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13:43:53 <fizzie> They don't tell that sort of info to us civilians.
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13:55:42 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, well, launching a mission to the moon is hardly low-key.
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15:31:05 <nooga> i just did my laundry, feels good
15:31:18 <nooga> that means i can program a washing machine!
15:34:33 <Sgeo> XChat-GNOME doesn't automatically set me away when I go away from the thingy
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15:35:49 <pikhq> GOD DAMMIT JOSIAH STOP SNEEZING. I WANT COFFEE
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16:15:19 <pikhq> Well motherfucking hell. My car battery died.
16:15:39 <pikhq> I'll have to wait for parents to get home so I can actually get a new one.
16:15:52 <alise> My battery car died.
16:15:57 <alise> Now I can't drive my battery to places.
16:16:12 <pikhq> And I'm missing a test today. Here's hoping my prof. lets me do the test at a later date.
16:16:12 <alise> pikhq: Any luck with NixOS? I have the LiveCD working on USB.
16:16:16 <alise> So I can install it, theoretically.
16:16:22 <pikhq> alise: I've got it installed in a VM.
16:16:27 <pikhq> Not done anything with it, though.
16:16:29 <alise> pikhq: How boring.
16:16:35 <pikhq> The solution to all my problems was to use qemu.
16:16:56 <alise> pikhq: With qemu, it runs unbelievably slowly for me.
16:17:01 <alise> I guess you have virtualisation support.
16:17:28 <alise> 18:03:00 <pikhq> Wow. It is estimated the LSD of marijuana is 1500 *pounds*.
16:17:29 <Sgeo> This class is _far_ more convenient to do with Ubuntu than Windows
16:17:34 <alise> Most confusing phrase EVER.
16:17:43 <alise> Sgeo: Everything is etc.
16:17:44 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, I've got it using KVM.
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16:17:52 <alise> pikhq: Fuck you and your good hardware >:(
16:18:00 <pikhq> alise: You could use kqemu.
16:18:03 <alise> pikhq: Can I have your virtualisation module to plug into my processor?
16:18:06 <alise> pikhq: kqemu no longer exists.
16:18:12 <alise> "Because fuck you."
16:18:20 <pikhq> Oh, Gentoo must be patching its qemu, then.
16:18:27 <Sgeo> What happened to kqemu?
16:18:34 <pikhq> Sgeo: Apparently KVM.
16:18:37 <alise> Not on the site any more, not in the latest release.
16:18:39 <alise> Also, what pikhq said.
16:18:43 <alise> Which requires virtualisation support.
16:18:51 <alise> Because my life is worthlooooh, it can use Xen.
16:18:54 <Sgeo> Does Perl have first-class functions?
16:18:58 <alise> Can Xen do stuff without virtualisation support?
16:19:13 <Sgeo> My professor didn't seem to understand what I was asking when I said "store subroutine in a variable"
16:19:14 <alise> But not like that.
16:19:24 <alise> Sgeo: well that's a stupid way of putting it :)
16:19:36 <alise> "Get a reference to a subroutine".
16:19:44 <ais523> Sgeo: it has first-class references to subroutines
16:19:58 <ais523> and you can store those in variables
16:20:17 <alise> ais523: what's the syntax?
16:20:23 <ais523> and as subroutines are read-only (although you can create the things dynamically using lambdas), a reference to a subroutine is equivalent to the subroutine itself, except in terms of syntax
16:20:31 <ais523> for a reference to subroutine foo
16:20:37 <ais523> just like \$foo would be a reference to scalar foo
16:20:38 <alise> ais523: not \foo because that's sort of ambiguous, right?
16:20:45 <ais523> that's more meaningless than ambiguous
16:20:50 <alise> because foo() is just shorthand for &foo(), right?
16:20:58 <ais523> no, it passes arguments differently
16:21:14 <Sgeo> It's more than just whether you can do it before or after being defined?
16:21:19 <ais523> old-fashioned subroutine call: @_ = ("arg1, "arg2"); &foo;
16:21:27 <ais523> new subroutine cal: foo("arg1","arg2")
16:21:34 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Heh, here are typical sentences from alise and Vorpal:
16:21:34 <Vorpal> <fizzie> >>> str(h_a.sampleSingle(50))
16:21:34 <Vorpal> <fizzie> 'celt fstuooslk cikmwpe boaa,stblgcneinn, Ahu-onrts'
16:21:34 <Vorpal> <fizzie> >>> str(h_v.sampleSingle(50))
16:21:34 <Vorpal> <fizzie> "olsbioa1ce btkdus aeae boeee fh rie> w)ne 2n'l wec"
16:21:39 <Sgeo> I think she's showing us old-fashioned
16:21:40 <ais523> and @_ is managed for you, it even restores the original value
16:21:53 <alise> <ais523> old-fashioned subroutine call: @_ = ("arg1, "arg2"); &foo;
16:21:58 <alise> surely even old perl didn't make you do that
16:22:01 <Sgeo> No, just old-fashioned using it, not old-fashioned subroutine call
16:22:12 <ais523> in fact, using @_ may have just been convention
16:22:24 <alise> DB<1> @_ = ("Hello, world!\n"); &print;
16:22:25 <alise> Undefined subroutine &main::print called at (eval 6)[/usr/share/perl/5.10/perl5db.pl:638] line 2.
16:22:31 <ais523> print isn't a subroutine
16:22:36 <ais523> it's a builtin function
16:22:38 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
16:22:48 <pikhq> Of all the days, I had to miss class on the day of a test.
16:22:51 <Sgeo> Old-fashioned use of @_ within the body
16:22:54 <alise> pikhq: would NixOS paravirtualise properly?
16:22:59 <alise> pikhq: also, no public transport?
16:23:00 <ais523> even more fun, you had to scope @_ yourself
16:23:06 <alise> that's not old-fashioned
16:23:07 <pikhq> alise: It's the US.
16:23:11 <alise> that's how you do arguments in perl
16:23:14 <ais523> although it had a rather useful "local" keyword, which means "change the value now, restore it at the end of the block"
16:23:19 <alise> pikhq: lol @ your country sucks
16:23:24 <ais523> "local" still exists, but "my" is used more often, as it does actual scoping
16:23:28 <ais523> rather than just INTERCAL-style stashing
16:23:36 <pikhq> And yes, NixOS ought to paravirtualise properly. It's only the kernel that's involved in that.
16:23:44 <alise> ais523: I think Sgeo may need some therapy to realise that you manually shift @_ to do arguments in regular Perl.
16:23:54 <alise> pikhq: How hellish is setting up Xen?
16:24:09 <ais523> alise: well, it's very flexible
16:24:11 <zzo38> It isn't only INTERCAL that stashes/retrieves variables in that way, dc also has a command to do something similar.
16:24:15 <alise> Sounds hellish to me.
16:24:16 <pikhq> Perhaps more-so on not-Gentoo, though.
16:24:27 <ais523> but if you stick to conventions, it's just the same as normal argument passing
16:24:32 <pikhq> I'd *imagine* the only painful bit would be setting up bridging.
16:24:35 <alise> pikhq: Nix's single-configuration-mechanism thing is /so cool/.
16:24:46 <alise> <pikhq> I'd *imagine* the only painful bit would be setting up bridging. ;; that's the thing, QEMU can use Xen
16:24:52 <ais523> sub foo {my $a = shift; my $b = shift;}
16:25:04 <ais523> tailcalls are done by setting up @_ by hand, then doing goto &foo;
16:25:13 <alise> but most people write
16:25:14 <pikhq> alise: That's only for the virtualisation extensions.
16:25:28 <ais523> alise: really? I haven't seen that very often
16:25:28 <alise> pikhq: Got a kqemu source package?
16:25:43 <alise> ais523: I have never seen a single person manually shift every argument like you've written.
16:25:51 <alise> I have universally seen my ($args, $here) = @_;
16:25:56 <ais523> at least, =shift is standard in TAEB, and it has some of the sanest Perl code in existence
16:26:02 <alise> Random example: http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/PERL/node61.html
16:26:16 <alise> Random example: http://automatthias.wordpress.com/2007/01/19/perl-argument-passing-weirdness/
16:26:18 <ais523> occasionally it refers to elements of @_ directly, when it needs extreme performence
16:26:22 <pikhq> alise: Hmm. Use qemu pre-0.9.1 and http://wiki.qemu.org/download/kqemu-1.3.0pre11.tar.gz .
16:26:28 <alise> Random example: http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/perl/slides/sub_arguments.html (just one parameter, but still)
16:26:51 <alise> ais523: if it even has functions it's not Ultra Clean Insane Perl ;-)
16:26:55 <ais523> (when it needs even /more/ extreme performance, it refers to the internals of objects in an encapsulation-breaking manner, but only once and with huge warnings in a comment next to it)
16:27:03 <alise> You need MooseX::Declare for that, which has actual method signatures with names.
16:27:14 <alise> pikhq: Or just install it on real hardware...
16:27:50 <alise> "Alex Smith (ais523)" --TAEB blog. I thought you were still paranoid about that.
16:28:17 <alise> It upsets me that TAEB plays Nethack better than I do.
16:28:29 <alise> At least with chess I can claim it's a genuinely very difficult game.
16:29:01 <alise> ais523: How far has Planar got?
16:29:10 <alise> When you say it gets into Sokoban, I presume it goes through the Mines first?
16:29:19 <alise> If not, HA HA I AM BETTER THAN TAEB
16:29:22 <ais523> alise: no, sorear and I were working on TAEB in parallel
16:29:36 <ais523> he was working on a mines-completing version of the AI, I was working on a Sokoban-completing version
16:29:36 <alise> I meant the name/nick association
16:29:45 <ais523> alise: I'm guessing people have figured it by now
16:30:01 <ais523> alise: well, neither of us have worked on it for a while
16:30:07 <ais523> but I'm not sure how deep sortaeb523 ever got
16:30:25 <ais523> dormant, not abandoned
16:31:22 <alise> "Incidentally, Planar always asks for more information, if it’s available and doesn’t cost a turn, in order to analyse the situation as well as possible; for instance, if the material the golem was made of (relevant because it determines how dangerous it is) were undeducible from its colour on-screen, it would ask the framework to request NetHack to give more details, in this case by sending a farlook command to examine it remotely in detail."
16:31:23 <alise> is this automatic?
16:31:33 <ais523> in Planar, yes; in TAEB, no
16:31:39 <alise> i'd hide it all behind a VeryCleverNethackScreen interface
16:31:49 <alise> where all information is available, just sometimes it has to request (and cache it)
16:31:58 <alise> so you can pretend you have 4D vision, or something, and the depth tells you the farlook info
16:32:29 <ais523> alise: I seem to remember that there was a huge flamewar on the subject a while ago
16:32:47 <ais523> part of the reason is that some TAEB AIs are content with guesses
16:32:48 <alise> pikhq: Incidentally, Alt-F9 on NixOS has an inexplicable Rogue game always started.
16:32:56 <alise> Why? Who knows, maybe they just like Rogue.
16:33:05 <alise> ais523: then they don't need to request the information
16:33:10 <alise> also, that's stupid
16:33:12 <alise> farlook isn't exactly cheating
16:33:30 <alise> "taking the worst-case scenario; Planar is just as scared of the Random Number Generator as any human would be"
16:33:32 <ais523> alise: it's not to do with cheating, it's to do with saving time
16:33:34 <alise> perhaps it should take risks upon occasion?
16:33:43 <alise> ais523: farlook doesn't take a turn or more than a few ms of realtime...
16:33:44 <Sgeo> Someone dislikes the "\$betty" that the professor is printing
16:33:52 <ais523> alise: TAEB's designed for online play
16:33:52 <Sgeo> And asks "Why not just print betty"?
16:33:59 <ais523> it takes a few hundred ms to farlook something
16:34:24 <alise> ais523: a proper nethack server would send down all such information with the frame :)
16:34:29 <alise> and have the local client display it upon request
16:34:53 <alise> "nHackbot owned the (known) high mark for score and dungeon depth for quite some time, achieving a score 18,432 and maximum depth of 10."
16:34:58 <alise> err, presumably as far as bots go, not players
16:35:19 <alise> "Intrigued by nHackBot and itching to do something similar, Shawn Moore started nhbot in December 2005, using Perl. While nHackBot sought to eventually be a complete bot, nhbot had no such aspirations. It solved the screen parsing problem by not parsing the screen at all, opting instead to read just the top line. Rather than calculating where to move next, it walked around randomly. Eventually, it did gain the ability to read the bottom line in order to kno
16:35:19 <alise> w when to engrave Elbereth, but that was the extent of nhbot's sight. nhbot did remarkably well for being so near-sighted, posting a high score of 15,185. However, it did not descend very far, making it only to dungeon level 3."
16:35:23 <alise> Top line as in the first one of the screen???
16:35:25 <alise> That's usually blank
16:35:39 <ais523> like "the jackal hits!"
16:35:44 <alise> what a retarded bot
16:36:01 <alise> "GreyKnight" -- /that/ GreyKnight?
16:36:18 <alise> wait, i don't know a greyknight
16:36:46 <Sgeo> I think I need a translator
16:37:06 <Sgeo> She fails to understand what I'm saying. She thinks I had no clue what was going on, when I just wanted to point something out
16:37:25 <Sgeo> alise, heraldic ensignia of Agora?
16:37:38 <alise> Sgeo: not the same guy, he had a wikipedia page
16:37:50 <alise> then he used to come here too
16:38:26 <alise> (he'd changed his user page; I found the copy I remember in the history.)
16:40:37 <Sgeo> How do you use a reference?
16:41:08 <Sgeo> Is that a joke, or are you trying to give me a nightmare, or...
16:41:10 <alise> (I hereby defer horrible Perl questions to ais523, the poor thing. Actually, scratch that; it'll just scare him off.)
16:43:41 <Vorpal> alise, nice that your typical line is "celt fstuooslk cikmwpe boaa,stblgcneinn, Ahu-onrts'". A bit of fine tuning and we could replace you with a bot!
16:44:12 <alise> Vorpal: Ahu-onrts'! CELT FSTUOOSLK!!!
16:44:51 <alise> (Translation: "Don't you EVER say that about my mother again, you [UNTRANSLATABLE] [UNTRANSLATABLE]!!!"
16:44:56 <Vorpal> alise, I have but one reply to that: lsbioa1ce btkdus aeae boeee fh rie> w)ne 2n'l wec
16:45:27 <alise> Get your orthography right, you cikmwpe boaa.
16:45:32 <Vorpal> alise, no that isn't thypical of me
16:45:35 * Sgeo headaches at array coerced into scalar vs $#somearray
16:45:38 <ais523> Sgeo: extra sigil at the start
16:45:47 <Vorpal> I almost never use æ except when discussing the char itself
16:45:49 <Sgeo> It would be sensible if they were the same. They're not
16:45:52 <ais523> as in, $reference is a scalar holding a reference, $$scalar is the scalar it points to
16:45:54 <alise> Vorpal: You're always so bloody thypical, you stblgcneinn.
16:46:00 <ais523> likewise, %$scalar is the hash it points to, etc
16:46:08 <ais523> *$$reference, %$reference
16:46:29 <ais523> if $reference isn't a reference, or the wrong sort of reference, it causes a run-time warning
16:46:33 <ais523> Perl isn't big on the idea of run-time errors
16:46:45 <ais523> which is why you should always turn warnings on (-w command-line option, or "use warnings;" in the program)
16:46:49 <Vorpal> alise, hrrm. You might have spoken enough lines in here that fizzie could make a fungot language model for you
16:46:49 <fungot> Vorpal: the masamune! ride again!
16:46:58 <Vorpal> alise, not sure if I have spoken enough as well
16:47:02 <alise> Vorpal: I've spoken more than enough.
16:47:04 <Vorpal> fungot, oh? the sword?
16:47:04 <fungot> Vorpal: shall we get back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place...
16:47:20 <Sgeo> Perl's random quirks are maddening
16:47:20 <alise> The YouTube corpus, for instance, is quite small. Because asiekierka wasn't smart enough to do anything more than manually copy and paste YouTube comments out.
16:47:21 <Vorpal> alise, right. It would be interesting :)
16:47:26 <alise> Sgeo: are English's?
16:47:32 <alise> Vorpal: It's already been done.
16:47:35 <alise> Grep logs for "virtuehird".
16:47:41 <Vorpal> alise, ah, about when?
16:47:47 <Vorpal> alise, I'm on laptop atm
16:47:48 <Sgeo> I've been speaking English as a little kid. I'm used to it
16:47:53 <alise> When I was still ehird, at least.
16:47:53 <Vorpal> alise, I don't have full logs locally
16:47:56 <Sgeo> It's a bit late to learn Perl as a little kid
16:48:09 <alise> select * from logs where type=0 and nick="virtuehird";
16:48:10 <Vorpal> alise, yeah but ssh has a latency > 2 seconds
16:48:15 <ais523> Perl's quirks are mostly intentionally the same sorts of quirks you get in natural languages
16:48:16 <Vorpal> accessing it over ssh would be painful
16:48:29 <Vorpal> alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no.
16:48:34 <ais523> Vorpal: ssh has a much lower latency than that
16:48:38 <ais523> people play roguelikes over it
16:48:44 <Vorpal> ais523, not when you are on EDGE
16:48:46 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no.
16:48:49 <alise> just quoted for posterity
16:48:59 <Vorpal> ais523, bluetooth to phone, which has only EDGE atm, not 3G
16:49:00 <alise> `addquote <Vorpal> alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no.
16:49:10 <Vorpal> alise, irc because I run the client locally
16:49:12 <HackEgo> 225|<Vorpal> alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no.
16:49:38 <alise> There are much less funny things in the QDB.
16:49:38 <Vorpal> alise, so you admitted I was funny
16:49:54 <alise> In the same way that things Bush says are funny.
16:50:04 <Vorpal> I prefer my original interpretation
16:50:59 <alise> and no, he shouldn't
16:51:02 <alise> that wouldn't be amusing
16:51:06 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway yes ssh over local ethernet has less lag. So does ssh from university. Just not ssh over mobile tethered by bluetooth on GSM/EDGE.
16:51:15 -!- alise has changed nick to trinlthis.
16:51:18 <Vorpal> trinithis, fairly boring joke
16:51:20 -!- trinlthis has changed nick to alise.
16:51:41 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Documents/#esoteric/logs$ grep --colour=force -ri 'virtuehird' | less
16:51:52 <ais523> trinithis: new? or a regular who's changed nick yet again?
16:52:11 <Vorpal> ais523, besides the signal indicator on the phone is at 2 out of 4....
16:52:14 <ais523> nice to see new people
16:52:19 <trinithis> Hahah. As they say, imitation is the best form of flattery
16:52:21 <ais523> Vorpal: signal indicators are pretty meaningless...
16:52:40 <Vorpal> ais523, oh? just for phones or in general?
16:53:29 <Vorpal> ais523, yeah, it is pretty reliable for wlan (well I don't know if it is for wlan on phones, since my phone can't do wlan)
16:53:47 <ais523> Apple's original response to the iPhone signal strength issues was to release an OS patch to increase the signal strength meter
16:54:31 <Vorpal> ais523, so why can't they make the meter more reliable simply?
16:55:00 <ais523> Vorpal: phones normally know the exact signal strength in dBm, but don't display it to the user for fear of confusing them
16:55:16 <ais523> "why is my signal strength a negative number? why is it so much lower than my friend's, while I get better reception?"
16:55:36 <Sgeo> Does Perl have dynamically-scoped variables?
16:55:57 <ais523> Sgeo: lexical scoping: {my $variable; do stuff;}
16:56:05 <ais523> dynamical scoping: {local $variable; do stuff;}
16:56:25 <ais523> "my" is nearly always better
16:56:48 <ais523> unless you need the semantics of "local" for some reason, or you're trying to scope something like $/ where you need to temporarily modify the original $/ rather than create a new one
16:56:55 <Vorpal> ais523, why not just change the sign of it and call it something else
16:57:06 <ais523> alise: because higher numbers are better
16:57:16 <ais523> it's just that the numbers are negative
16:57:26 <ais523> you could add a constant, I suppose
16:57:47 <fizzie> ais523: +100 sounds like a safe enough constant to add.
16:58:05 <ais523> fizzie: might need to be a bit more, strength can go below 100dBm on occasion with some antennas
16:58:16 <ais523> admittedly, it's hard to pick the signal up at that level, but it's possible
16:58:32 <fizzie> It's only a problem if you don't want it to ever be negative.
16:58:38 <ais523> what would be really nice would be for phones to display signal/noise ratio, but I'm not sure how feasible it is to calculate that on the fly
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16:59:01 <Vorpal> ais523, hm higher numbers are better, yeah inverting sign wouldn't work, since that would make lower better
17:01:31 <pikhq> I need to freaking *remove the driver's side wheel* in order to replace the battery. WHAT THE HELL
17:01:35 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway it should be plausible to make a scale from worst to best with a bit of margin based on the antenna. Presumably you have a weakest-working-signal as well as a best-plausible-signal for a given phone. Then you could just add a bit of margin as required (probably mostly/only at the top end) and then make a scale from worst to best based on that?
17:01:44 <Vorpal> Either linear, or something more complex
17:01:51 <fizzie> ais523: Given how an absurd amount of computation there is in the audio codecs like amr-nb/amr-wb, I doubt a SNR estimate would really be felt at all. They might even already be doing that sort of stuff; especially for any VOIP codecs, for comfort noise generation and VAD.
17:01:59 <Vorpal> but that way you should get reasonable good indicator
17:01:59 <ais523> best-plausible-signal can be really high, though
17:02:10 <ais523> if you're right next to the mobile phone mast, and that's entirely plausible in some built up areas
17:02:37 <Vorpal> ais523, so show "it's off the scales" or something like that. Will get some laughs
17:02:45 <Vorpal> or just make it non-linear
17:03:07 <ais523> it'd be non-linear anyway, it's the use of a logscale that makes the values negative in the first place
17:03:13 <ais523> but I'm wondering if you'd have to log twice, or something
17:04:43 <Vorpal> ais523, or just do it so that from a scale 0-100, then you give 98% for very-good-not-next-to-tower signal and then use the remaining bit for the extreme case
17:05:17 <Vorpal> ais523, I mean, non-linear scales to increase detail in some areas and reduce it in others isn't exactly uncommon. Just look at sRGB
17:07:12 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway phones doesn't provide instant response to signal strength changes. So doing log twice wouldn't be an issue, it isn't like it is done more than every few seconds...
17:07:20 <Vorpal> for the display that is
17:07:32 <Vorpal> perhaps it calculates dBm more rapidly internally
17:07:53 <ais523> doing log twice would lead to pretty much no change for very different signals at the low end, though
17:08:02 <ais523> maybe just sqrt(log(x))?
17:08:20 <ais523> logarithms take next to no time nowadays, especially if you use a lookup table
17:09:09 <Vorpal> I'm just suggesting a general idea, exactly how you scale it is a fudge factor and would require being able to test it to see how it works out
17:09:34 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway you need more than just signal strength, you need SNR as well
17:09:38 <ais523> well, it'd need to be scaled in a consistent way across phones for signal strengths to be comparable across phones
17:09:52 <ais523> and I mentioned SNR already as being more meaningful than strength
17:10:05 <ais523> hmm, or what about measurements in theoretical maximum bits per second?
17:10:11 <ais523> that depends on the SNR
17:10:14 <Vorpal> ais523, but excellent SNR and weak signal isn't very usable either
17:10:30 <ais523> assuming you take internal noise in the phone into account in the SNR
17:11:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: NO CARRIER).
17:11:22 <Sgeo> Me: There are some languages that are more than just syntax
17:11:26 <Sgeo> Student: Like assembly
17:11:30 <Sgeo> Me: Like Haskell
17:11:37 <Vorpal> ais523, what if you have basically no noise? (unrealistic I know!) but a signal so weak that the electrical current or whatever from it can't be detected by the circuits in the phone?
17:11:37 <Sgeo> Student: Like I said, low-level languages
17:11:54 <ais523> Vorpal: if there is no noise, it can be detected, by definition
17:13:06 <Vorpal> ais523, could it not fall below the range of whatever sort of electronic thingy that the phone uses to pick up the signal from the antenna? A/D converter perhaps?
17:13:29 <ais523> Vorpal: just put an amplifier in there
17:13:38 <ais523> the noise from the amplifier /counts towards the SNR ratio/
17:13:49 <Vorpal> ais523, yes but if there isn't one, couldn't what I suggested happen?
17:14:02 <ais523> Vorpal: no, because then the SNR increases
17:14:13 <fizzie> >>> str(h_f.sampleSingle(50))
17:14:13 <fizzie> "iraa dsolh tesheshts c'eoe :ldeonshol: luece fh We"
17:14:13 <fizzie> (That's what I sound like.)
17:14:18 <ais523> because if you can't detect a signal, then it is below the noise floor by definition
17:14:20 <Vorpal> ais523, hm I guess you get quantum noise at some level
17:14:26 <Vorpal> so you can never get actual 0 noise
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17:14:37 <ais523> it's known as shot noise
17:14:42 <ais523> normally, thermal noise is much larger, though
17:14:55 <ais523> especially at room temperature
17:14:59 <Vorpal> ais523, which is good, divisions by zero in nature sounds so awkward ;)
17:16:01 <Vorpal> ais523, why shot noise?
17:16:17 <Vorpal> ais523, it seems so nonsensical... compared to quantum noise.
17:16:28 <ais523> because it's a particular cause of noise
17:16:35 <ais523> something to do with it tending to come all at once
17:16:59 <ais523> <Wikipedia> Shot noise is a type of electronic noise that occurs when the finite number of particles that carry energy (such as electrons in an electronic circuit or photons in an optical device) is small enough to give rise to detectable statistical fluctuations in a measurement. It is important in electronics, telecommunications, and fundamental physics.
17:17:17 <alise> http://dinnerinabottle.com/
17:17:23 <Sgeo> I love how I didn't have to install anything to use the wifi
17:17:29 <alise> You can buy gelfite fish water. Seriously.
17:17:37 <Vorpal> Sgeo, how is that surprising?
17:17:40 <alise> <Sgeo> Me: There are some languages that are more than just syntax
17:17:40 <alise> <Sgeo> Student: Like assembly ;; wat
17:17:58 <ais523> Vorpal: well, you usually do on Windows
17:18:00 <ais523> unless it comes preinstalled
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17:18:25 <Vorpal> aren't most languages "more than just syntax"? Depends on what you actually mean with it. It isn't terribly clear.
17:18:47 <Vorpal> well, I guess some esolangs might start out as only syntax
17:19:03 <Sgeo> The student was complaining about the way that this language was being taught
17:19:03 <Vorpal> and then you invent the other parts
17:19:11 <Sgeo> Ok, closing comp
17:19:16 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: well, you usually do on Windows <-- hm okay
17:19:19 <alise> ais523: windows does wifi fine by default ime
17:19:23 <ais523> well, asm doesn't even have a single standard syntax
17:19:28 <alise> it'll depend on your hardware, of course
17:19:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat).
17:19:46 <alise> ais523: yes, it has wifi support...
17:19:49 <ais523> also, the Windows desktop I use doesn't do wifi
17:19:59 <ais523> although that's hardly surprising, given that it doesn't have a wifi card
17:20:08 <Vorpal> ais523, linux has way better hw support than windows. Though most manufactures provide drivers for windows to make up for that
17:20:18 <ais523> but Windows even takes time to install USB stick drivers when you plug in a USB stick, it takes around a minute the first time
17:20:31 <Vorpal> ais523, a minute? More like half a minute
17:20:38 <Vorpal> but I guess that depends on the computer
17:20:49 <Vorpal> ais523, also it sometimes takes time if you just use another usb port
17:21:08 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, it has to install the drivers separately for each manufacturer of USB sticks, and each physical port on the computer
17:21:16 <ais523> which makes me think abstraction fail
17:21:26 <Vorpal> ais523, and each port on an external hub. I tested that some years ago
17:21:27 <ais523> if you plug a USB stick in port 1 then port 2, you can plug it back into 1 again without waiting
17:21:44 <ais523> what if you plug the external hub into a different port, then reuse a port on the hub?
17:22:00 <Vorpal> ais523, doesn't it need to install drivers for the hub iirc?
17:22:06 <Vorpal> and um I don't remember what happened then
17:22:17 <Vorpal> and I don't have any computer handy to test with currently
17:22:32 <ais523> Windows always simultaneously frustrates and amuses me whenever I have to use it nowadays
17:22:48 -!- moo8 has quit (Quit: moo8).
17:23:13 <Vorpal> ais523, I survive when I have to use it mostly. Mostly because all the lab computers at uni are core 2 quad at 2.6 GHz or such iirc
17:24:18 <Vorpal> of course it has it's own quirks. Like profile not propagating between all labs (while "my documents" does).
17:24:34 -!- moo8 has joined.
17:24:43 <ais523> but it's still frustrating
17:25:12 <ais523> if you want some more fun, a network glitch at the University made directory listings take half an hour to load, during which you couldn't do anything else
17:25:14 <Vorpal> ais523, yeah just have to store the theme to a file and reload it if you get the default bg when logging in. Oh except that internet explorer takes a bit more time to get sane
17:25:20 <ais523> I find it hard to imagine what sort of OS glitch could manage that
17:25:25 <Vorpal> there is no firefox or such
17:25:35 <ais523> (we literally lost half an hour of a three-hour class due to that)
17:25:38 * pikhq hereby hates relatively recent American cars
17:26:05 <pikhq> THE MOTHER-FUCKING WHEEL NEEDS TO BE TAKEN OFF TO REPLACE THE BATTERY
17:26:18 <Vorpal> ais523, I think the rules require us to ask for permission to install software. But we are free to compile our own in visual studio for courses and such. So I can only conclude that it is okay to write your own browser and run it, but not okay to just install firefox :D
17:26:49 <Vorpal> <ais523> if you want some more fun, a network glitch at the University made directory listings take half an hour to load, during which you couldn't do anything else <-- had that recently
17:26:51 <ais523> does Firefox install in Visual Studio?
17:27:05 <Vorpal> well, login took 20 minutes that day
17:27:48 <Vorpal> and um while I tried to move a file explorer.exe crashed with "<some error> at 0x00000000" iirc
17:27:55 <fizzie> ais523: "For doing development on the CVS trunk (Mozilla 1.9 or higher), the standard compiler is Microsoft Visual C++, version 8."
17:28:05 <Vorpal> ais523, msvc took a few minutes to compile hello world
17:28:26 <Vorpal> ais523, well it doesn't normally
17:28:30 <Vorpal> ais523, it was just that day
17:28:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, that's moz? not firefox?
17:29:18 <Vorpal> ais523, after all they are core 2 quad with 4 GB ram each, on gbit ethernet. Oh and internet was fast, it was just anything on network shares, and since almost everything is on network shares....
17:29:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the whole project; but only 1.9, so up to FireFox 3. They've switched to Mercurial for 1.9.1/FireFox 3.5.
17:30:33 <ais523> it's possible that I can hear you but you can't hear me, I suppose
17:30:36 <ais523> but that's unusual on IRC
17:31:01 <fizzie> Their build system is, I think, a bit hairy.
17:31:04 <fizzie> "In addition to Visual Studio, you must install MozillaBuild, a bundle of software including just the right versions of bash, GNU make, autoconf, Mercurial, and much more."
17:31:48 <ais523> and they call this non-esoteric?
17:32:04 <ais523> hmm, now I want an esolang that has really precise dependencies on exact versions of things
17:32:08 <ais523> but I think gcc-bf might count already
17:32:12 <fizzie> The "official compiler" is still VC8 for FF 3/3.5/3.6/4 all, but apparently all those versions also build with VC9, versions <=3.5 in VC7.1, and versions >=4 in VC10.
17:32:51 <ais523> moo8: you could try writing an esoprogram or two, that helps avoid boredom
17:33:12 <ais523> or go to anagolf and try to solve some of the problems there (golf.shinh.org)
17:33:25 <Vorpal> ais523, actually I'm not surprised. I seen similar bundles of software in specific fragile versions before for windows. For other open source projects
17:33:31 <Vorpal> I think supertux used to have one
17:34:14 <ais523> hmm, someone actually did a cheat submission for "cancel fractions", it seems
17:34:22 <ais523> and I have no idea how, clearly it isn't embed-style cheating or rand-style cheating
17:34:30 <Vorpal> ais523, and supertux didn't use msvc, it uses msys + mingw.
17:34:53 -!- moo8 has quit (Quit: moo8).
17:36:06 <Vorpal> ais523, hm the obvious way to implement it would be with that <Greek guy, forgot who>'s algorithm which uses gcd
17:37:02 <Vorpal> ais523, which one is the cheat one?
17:37:17 <ais523> the one where someone resubmitted a "nocheat" version, which was longer
17:37:35 <ais523> my Perl submission there, incidentally, semi-cheats by using a rationals library
17:37:45 <ais523> but I consider that to be genuine because it actually solves the problem
17:37:48 <ais523> presumably it's faster to do by hand
17:39:59 <ais523> ah, the other Perl submissions used the same library as me, but used eval rather than parsing by hand
17:40:03 <ais523> why didn't I think of that?
17:41:41 <ais523> wow at the Scheme solution (which three people found): "(port-map print read)"
17:41:47 <alise> what's the challenge?
17:41:47 * Phantom_Hoover reads the WP summary of the Epic of Gilgamesh and can't help but think of Turkish Star Wars.
17:42:06 -!- tombom has joined.
17:42:28 <alise> "In order to determine how to accomplish the goal in question, strategic planning basically does routing in plan-space, again using Dijkstra’s algorithm." ;; genius
17:42:42 <ais523> alise: nowadays it uses a modified A*
17:42:46 <alise> ais523: i was about to say
17:42:49 <alise> ais523: hmm, might yours not be better?
17:42:59 <ais523> plus my routing algorithm for when it actually corresponds to routing on the map
17:43:35 <ais523> it's like dijkstra's algorithm modified to cache really well
17:43:52 <ais523> and beats A* after a while due to A* needing to be recalculated each time
17:44:03 <ais523> if you do enough routings on similar maps, and Planar does
17:44:18 <quintopia> asymptotically better than dijkstra's on fib heap?
17:44:25 <Vorpal> <alise> "In order to determine how to accomplish the goal in question, strategic planning basically does routing in plan-space, again using Dijkstra’s algorithm." ;; genius <-- what are you talking about?
17:44:33 <ais523> Vorpal: TAEB::AI::Planar
17:44:43 <ais523> I only recognised the concept because alise was quoting me
17:46:00 <ais523> hahaha; the C solution I'm looking at to "cancel fractions" needs to use a string twice
17:46:16 <ais523> and instead of repeating the string or assigning it to a variable, it writes the string once, and ""-6 once
17:46:37 <Vorpal> ais523, is there a reason for that
17:46:37 <ais523> relying on the merging of constant strings that gcc does to make the trailing NULs of the two strings the same
17:46:44 <ais523> Vorpal: it's shorter, and it's a gold competition
17:47:16 <ais523> who cares that it's ridiculously fragile, ranking for golf competitions only depends on the program running correctly once, normally
17:47:18 <Vorpal> ais523, wait, gcc doesn't merge constants unless they actually are constant
17:47:23 <Vorpal> and you can't write to constants
17:47:32 <ais523> it doesn't write to it at all, just offsets from it
17:47:38 <ais523> "six characters before a null string"
17:47:44 <ais523> that doesn't modify the null string
17:48:21 <Vorpal> ais523, how does it know it can write there at all
17:48:32 <Vorpal> ais523, chances are it might be in a read only page?
17:48:33 <ais523> it isn't writing there
17:48:36 <ais523> it is in a read only page
17:48:47 <ais523> you do not be able to write to what a pointer points to to subtract from the pointer
17:49:13 <ais523> "What's the memory address for 6 characters before the start of your stack frame?" "You can't write there!"
17:49:34 <Vorpal> ais523, I misunderstood you as it was writing there
17:49:37 <ais523> (admittedly the address might not /exist/ due to virtual memory and paging, but writability doesn't affect existence)
17:49:45 <Vorpal> ais523, I read "<ais523> it doesn't write to it at all, just offsets from it" as "<ais523> it doesn't write to it at all, just to offsets from it"
17:50:16 <ais523> <hallvabo> import java.util.*;enum C{C;int a,b,n,d,t;{for(Scanner S=new Scanner(System.in).useDelimiter("/|\n");b<1;System.out.println(d>a?n/a+"/"+d/a:n/a))for(a=n=S.nextInt(),b=d=S.nextInt();b>0;a=b,b=t%b)t=a;}}
17:50:24 <ais523> that really says a lot about Java
17:50:49 <Vorpal> ais523, that you can make it as messy as you want but there will still be quite a few long function names in it you can't avoid?
17:51:03 <ais523> cancel fractions, like all the other submissions to the golf competition in question
17:51:06 <ais523> and it actually succeeds at it
17:51:12 <ais523> but it's a lot longer than the submissions in most other langs
17:51:23 <quintopia> didn't know about said competition
17:51:40 <ais523> haha, I see how the golfscript competition cheats
17:51:46 <ais523> *golfscript entry cheats
17:51:50 <ais523> it contains embedded Ruby
17:52:15 <ais523> golfscript's interp is written in Ruby, and someone added an "embed ruby" command to the lang, presumably on a whim
17:52:19 <Vorpal> ais523, but exec was denied?
17:52:27 <alise> ais523: are there any plans to make TAEB less cautious?
17:52:33 <alise> it seems that always taking the worst-case damage isn't a good idea
17:52:37 <alise> it'd be better to figure out the distribution
17:52:42 <alise> and perhaps pick the most common, plus a bit
17:52:47 <alise> (while taking into account the worst case)
17:52:52 <ais523> alise: no, because it's so easy to pretty much avoid damage, in most cases
17:53:08 <ais523> bots have no issue with spamming Elbereth everywhere, and it's probably the best strategy
17:53:21 <quintopia> hey guys. any of y'all have a thought on whether this is computable: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Bigot
17:53:23 <Vorpal> alise, doing that feels a bit like cheating :/
17:53:37 <alise> Elbereth is a bit lame
17:53:41 <alise> AceHack should remove it ;-)
17:53:54 <ais523> alise: not Ace, that's not compatible with its goals
17:53:59 <fizzie> Either Spork or Un (or maybe both) do something to Elbereth already.
17:54:16 <ais523> Spork nerfs Elbereth; Un plans to, but I'm not sure if it has yet
17:54:29 <ais523> it's interesting that they both decided to nerf it rather than remove it outright
17:54:32 <Vorpal> alise, nah, a better fix would be to remove it for writing in dust/engraving, that would make it more expensive. One charge from a wand of fire or such
17:54:35 <alise> "TAEB, on seeing this frame, makes a couple of damaging inferences:
17:54:35 <alise> The lower half of the level has turned into solid rock." :D
17:55:03 <ais523> alise: make a lot less powerful, it's a common gaming perjorative
17:55:17 <alise> I am not down wit da LINGO
17:55:21 <ais523> the reference is if you replace a real gun with a nerf gun
17:55:22 <alise> Well okay I know a lot of it
17:55:30 <Vorpal> <alise> "TAEB, on seeing this frame, makes a couple of damaging inferences: <alise> The lower half of the level has turned into solid rock." :D <-- eh what?
17:55:45 <ais523> Vorpal: if you try parsing the screen before the game finishes rendering
17:56:03 <ais523> it doesn't actually infer that the level is half-rock, but rather that it's fallen into another level with the same number in a different branch
17:56:06 <ais523> which is arguably worse
17:56:08 <Vorpal> ais523, you could just wait for the relevant line to be output?
17:56:15 <ais523> Vorpal: no you couldn't?
17:56:32 <Vorpal> ais523, well, wait for the HP lines and such to be output
17:56:36 <ais523> the game's rendering order isn't consistent enough / tagged well enough to do that
17:56:47 <fizzie> Right, Un had made Elbereth not work on major demons, but hadn't nerfed it any more; but they added that "ctrl-e engraves Elbereth" quick-key, which is a bit... much.
17:56:53 <alise> ais523: can't you just store the order as it is in the code? :P
17:56:54 <Vorpal> ais523, so it arrives out of order in the byte stream?
17:57:10 <ais523> fizzie: Ace is going to map Elbereth-writing to .
17:57:10 <alise> Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E Ctrl+E
17:57:17 <ais523> and then reflavour it, to be less arbitrary
17:57:24 <alise> Elbereth should be painful to do
17:57:31 <ais523> alise: the idea is to keep the same gameplay mechanics as NetHack, but make the interface better
17:57:34 <alise> ais523: I use . to wait, anyway
17:57:36 <alise> although usually s
17:57:40 <alise> since it's more helpful
17:57:48 <ais523> so, keep using . to wait and have Elbereth protection in the meantime
17:57:59 <Vorpal> alise, I think my suggestion above that it would only work with burning, not with writing in dust/engraving should make it a lot more expensive
17:58:04 <fizzie> Aw, no-one did a better fraction-canceler in Forth than my somewhat crappy quickly done obvious gcd+output solution.
17:58:07 <Vorpal> and perhaps even the burned one could wear out over time
17:58:08 <ais523> in practice, Elbereth-writing tends to be control-shift-V anyway
17:58:18 <quintopia> alise, ais523: what game/challenge does the previous discussion refer to?
17:58:30 <ais523> quintopia: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Cancel+fractions
17:58:35 <alise> cheater: pudding farmer!
17:58:38 <ais523> just one of many on anagolf
17:58:45 <ais523> but I'm caring about it more than others as I submitted it
17:58:53 <ais523> alise: just look at his/her nick
17:58:58 <ais523> not that pudding farming /is/ cheating, just boring
17:59:13 <alise> Wow, worst middle-finger ASCII art ever.
17:59:29 <alise> ais523: I love the quote --
17:59:35 <ais523> oh, I interpreted the _|_ as bottom from Haskell
17:59:36 <Vorpal> cheater, I find pudding farming gives too little, I tend to go for death farming instead
17:59:37 <quintopia> ais523: i was already looking at that, but i have no idea how elbereth, spork, etc. applies to it
17:59:38 <alise> "The DevTeam has arranged an automatic and savage punishment for pudding farming. It's called pudding farming."
17:59:40 <cheater> oh, i thought it was a unary operator evaluated on Bottom
17:59:43 <alise> ais523: that's why I added the ,- thumb :P
17:59:43 <ais523> as it's the normal ASCII representation
17:59:51 <cheater> so i gave alise an ascii art of a closure.
17:59:53 <ais523> alise: yes, I was trying to figure out the value of ,
18:00:02 <ais523> that you were subtracting bottom from
18:00:11 <ais523> although I suppose the value's irrelevant, because the sum as a whole has no value
18:00:33 <fizzie> ..|. is a nice, minimalistic finger.
18:00:33 <alise> Vorpal: isn't death farming pointless apart from ascending with weird stuff?
18:00:42 <ais523> quintopia: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?C+style+constants has almost a day left, it's another one I set
18:00:54 <ais523> alise: death farming's the fastest way to accumulate score
18:00:55 <Vorpal> alise, well if you want to max score, or get negative score, it is also somewhat useful
18:00:58 <ais523> if you're trying to max out the score counter
18:01:16 <ais523> most of the monsters that give higher scores are difficult to farm
18:01:34 <Vorpal> ais523, I managed to get exactly 0 for score once with death farming and some careful planning in general
18:01:40 <cheater> alise is bored by EVERYTHING
18:01:50 <Vorpal> ais523, no. Too much lag from here
18:01:58 <Vorpal> ais523, it is basically unplayable for me
18:02:01 <ais523> hmm, do it in devnull some year, and troll all the people aiming for minimum score
18:02:06 <ais523> it has servers all over the world
18:02:15 <Vorpal> ais523, maybe, when is devnull?
18:02:15 <quintopia> ais523: this isn't helping me understand where you are death farming and where the monsters lurk
18:02:19 <ais523> how else would you create a function that didn't return a value
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18:02:24 <ais523> Vorpal: every November
18:02:34 <Vorpal> ais523, ah, I have university and such then, tricky
18:02:39 <ais523> well, you probably want to put it in a monad so it can actually /do/ something
18:02:44 <Vorpal> ais523, the game in question lasted about half a month
18:02:52 <ais523> !haskell :t putStrLn "Hello, world!"
18:02:59 <Phantom_Hoover> And anyway, lazy semantics make non-returning functions basically pointless.
18:03:03 <EgoBot> putStrLn "Hello, world!" :: IO ()
18:03:07 <ais523> Vorpal: that's rather a while for death farming
18:03:17 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, Haskell has an empty type as standard?
18:03:17 <alise> <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yes
18:03:29 <ais523> hmm, I'm muddling terminology, aren't I?
18:03:30 <alise> or rather, misinformer
18:03:31 <Vorpal> ais523, I was doing extinctionism as well
18:03:33 <ais523> that isn't lying, though, just being wrong
18:03:48 <alise> data Void -- requires extension to H'98
18:03:56 <Vorpal> ais523, I think I missed water devils though
18:04:01 <ais523> oh, a type with no values at all, such that you know any function that returns it doesn't return?
18:04:10 <ais523> C should have one of those, IMO
18:05:00 <Vorpal> ais523, like a combination of void and __attribute__((noreturn)) ?
18:05:12 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that has one value
18:05:23 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC WP gives void as the closest analogue to the empty type.
18:05:41 <Vorpal> ais523, non portable solution: #define noretvoid __attribute__((noreturn)) void
18:05:50 <Vorpal> or whatever you want to call it
18:05:54 <Vorpal> ais523, then use that as a return type
18:06:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, as ais523 said, void is an unit type
18:06:29 <ais523> if it's "void stuff()", then stuff itself is of type void(*)()
18:06:37 <ais523> which has quite a lot of possilbe values
18:06:47 <Vorpal> ais523, that's pointer to the func though?
18:07:00 <ais523> Vorpal: the name of a function is a pointer to it
18:07:00 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, that's the type of the function, not its value.
18:07:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes I have to agree here
18:08:01 <fizzie> Current WP view on C void is: "Note that despite the name, in all of these situations, the void type serves as a unit type, not as a zero or bottom type, even though unlike a real unit type which is a singleton, the void type comprises an empty set of values, and the language does not provide any way to declare an object or represent a value with type void."
18:08:52 <ais523> void's defined as an incomplete type that cannot be completed
18:09:04 <ais523> so via the definition, it's a perfect encapsulation for some type with no way to access it
18:09:21 <ais523> you can assume it's the type defined by the HQ9++ program ++
18:10:10 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: void quite possibly has values, even multiple values, but there's no way to access them except via type punning
18:10:14 <Vorpal> ais523, doesn't gcc support void as a special type? Like for stack marker something or such
18:10:28 <Vorpal> ais523, you used it in gcc-bf iirc?
18:10:28 <ais523> and no way to create them except via type punning either
18:10:50 <fizzie> Well, C99 does say "The void type comprises an empty set of values; it is an incomplete type that cannot be completed." -- so if you go by literal verbiage, I guess it'd be empty, but then it doesn't really make sense as a return value type.
18:10:55 <ais523> Vorpal: oh, you can dereference a pointer to void inside a goto, to jump to that memory address
18:11:12 <ais523> but that's just because extensions need to, according to the standard, fit into stuff that's undefined behaviour in other interps
18:11:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe it is overloaded in a manner similar to "static"
18:11:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: {void* x; label: ; x = &&label; goto *x;}
18:11:58 <ais523> infinite loop via gcc extensions
18:12:32 <fizzie> ais523: Wouldn't it be a more elegant as {void *x; x = &&label; label: goto *x;} -- now you keep setting x all the time.
18:12:52 <ais523> fizzie: it'd be more elegant as an actual noncomputed loop, so it could be optimized
18:12:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, exactly, which is why it doesn't affect our argument
18:13:08 <ais523> gcc-bf's use of it is along the lines of "goto *(void *)0;"
18:13:25 <ais523> which is completely nonportable even within gcc, but I know that gcc-bf handles it correctly
18:13:46 <ais523> this is an example of the general principle that you can do what the hell you like in system libraries and headers, and generally have to
18:14:26 <fizzie> Another part of C99 says, of void: "The (nonexistent) value of a void expression (an expression that has type void) shall not be used in any way, and implicit or explicit conversions (except to void) shall not be applied to such an expression."
18:15:03 <ais523> fizzie: you can create an effective void value via type punning, though
18:15:11 <ais523> but then you need to type-pun /again/ to determine what it is
18:15:20 <ais523> and you just get the same result as if you'd done the type punning in one step
18:15:36 <fizzie> But really, it's a terminology quibble; you could as well argue that since "type funcname();" returns a value of type, and you can legally say "void funcname();" and have that return, it can't be empty.
18:15:57 <Vorpal> <ais523> this is an example of the general principle that you can do what the hell you like in system libraries and headers, and generally have to <-- no you can't but you have to because you can't
18:16:22 <Vorpal> ais523, with that I mean that to avoid messing up for user code you often have to that sort of weird stuff
18:16:24 <ais523> Vorpal: you can, because nothing in the standards constrains system headers/libraries, apart from semantics
18:16:42 <ais523> the standards don't even require the standard #includes to actually be files
18:16:56 <ais523> #include <stdio.h> could just set an internal compiler flag, for instance, in a hypothetical implementation
18:16:58 <Vorpal> ais523, you can't define stuff that could collide with the app, and you must be prepared to survive a lot of strange #define (up to a point)
18:18:47 <ais523> Vorpal: if implementing the headers in C, correct
18:18:55 <ais523> nothing forces system headers to be in C!
18:19:48 <Vorpal> ais523, hm... have you seen any such system?
18:20:27 <ais523> there's quite a lot of latitude in the C standards that has probably never been used
18:21:40 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't know about GCC but iirc clang sets up the initial #defines by passing a number of strings like "#define __clang__ 1" to the parser before starting to parse the actual files
18:21:48 <Vorpal> rather than just setting it up directly in some internal table
18:29:55 <alise> ais523: taeb's code is unreasonably well-architectured!
18:30:36 <fizzie> "NetHack bot" sounds like something that ought to be a real mess.
18:30:52 <ais523> at least two of the devs were using it as a test that the principles behind Moose were useful in practice
18:31:06 <ais523> as in, a test of the concept, rather than a test of the implementation
18:31:10 <ais523> something that's rarely done
18:31:48 <ais523> fizzie: some of the devs were complaining that my code was hacky, and I said that it was trying to emulate a hack in NetHack's code itself correctly, so there wasn't much else you could do
18:33:50 <Vorpal> <ais523> at least two of the devs were using it as a test that the principles behind Moose were useful in practice <-- Moose?
18:33:59 <ais523> Vorpal: Perl object-orientation library
18:34:21 <ais523> it's rather indicative of how Perl works that you /can/ have a library that adds a new OO system
18:35:57 <Vorpal> I often get transmission errors when copying data from/to my phone over bluetooth, I wonder why. Often I get like half an image, and then it works on next try. Nowdays I always check both size once after transfer and sha512sum twice
18:36:03 <nooga> or a library that changes syntax
18:36:08 <Vorpal> but that really shouldn't be needed
18:36:25 <ais523> you can have a library that preprocesses the code, but that's not quite the same
18:36:43 <nooga> it's what lacks in other langs
18:36:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, TAEB is what has been discussed the past half screen
18:37:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it should be clear from the context
18:37:27 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: TAEB is a NetHack bot framework, written in Perl
18:37:35 <ais523> combining it with an AI gives you a NetHack bot
18:37:46 <ais523> and the AIs are written as Perl libraries
18:38:40 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway what is the last thing that nethack prints when drawing the screen?
18:39:06 <ais523> I think it's the lowest-right character that actually changed
18:39:17 <ais523> not counting some characters that are drawn at other points in the sequence
18:39:26 <Vorpal> ais523, so it doesn't print the HP stuff unless it needs to?
18:39:49 <Vorpal> it should take less code to just redraw the whole thing
18:39:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Speaking of which (not that we were speaking of anything, this is a non sequitur), I took some panoramish (more like just stitched wide-angle) things from this water tower: http://zem.fi/~fis/watertower.jpg -- there's a restaurant on top of it and so on.
18:39:53 <ais523> to save terminal bandwidth, I think
18:40:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, and where is that pano?
18:40:20 <ais523> Vorpal: there are bits of code which clearly aren't assuming that terminal bandwidth is near-unlimited, like it is on modern computers
18:40:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: Being stitched.
18:40:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, also: nice water-tower
18:40:34 <ais523> even an option to create time delays via excess NULs in output
18:40:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, very unusual design
18:41:17 <Vorpal> ais523, err what? that would waste bw?
18:41:33 <ais523> Vorpal: deliberately, in order to create a time delay
18:41:47 <fizzie> lynx or screen or some-such did some pretty heavy screen-scrolling optimization; sometimes when you scrolled down a whole page, if it happened to have enough repeated structure in it, it'd just move some regions around the screen, since you can do region-to-region copies cheaply. (The way it moved things around was pretty visible on the vt510 at 9600 bps.)
18:41:49 <ais523> it used to be the standard method
18:42:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: The tower seems to have a Wikipedia page, though it's a bit stub-y: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haukilahti_water_tower
18:43:22 <Vorpal> ais523, why the time delay? excessive null bytes just wastes bw...
18:45:03 <ais523> Vorpal: because there's a limit to how fast characters can be sent to a terminal
18:45:12 <ais523> 1000 NULs would create a noticeable delay on most old-fashioned terminals
18:45:20 <ais523> due to the time it took to send them all down the line
18:45:52 <Vorpal> ais523, so you mean the *pipe* wasn't the limit?
18:46:05 <Vorpal> but the internal buffer of the terminal at the end?
18:46:05 <ais523> the speed of the connection was the limit
18:46:13 <ais523> it tended to be a serial connection at 2400 baud or so
18:46:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: First set, out of three: http://zem.fi/~fis/hp1.jpg -- that's about 129 degrees, horizontally.
18:46:24 <ais523> sending a kilobyte at 2400 baud will take a while no matter what the data is
18:46:35 <Vorpal> ais523, then those NUL would just waste that bw of the connection!? this makes no sense
18:47:01 <Vorpal> if the terminal hardware wasn't the limit, but the connection was
18:47:05 <Vorpal> then the NULs make no sense
18:47:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's for when you actually want to make a fixed-time delay.
18:47:23 <fizzie> To animate a twiddly thing, for example, or something.
18:47:30 <fizzie> (That you don't want to twiddle too fast.)
18:47:51 <ais523> Vorpal: there are fixed-time delays in NetHack, yes
18:47:54 <fizzie> I guess there it could be the other animations.
18:48:07 <ais523> things like shift-direction
18:48:12 <ais523> which shows you at each location you move past
18:48:38 <Vorpal> ais523, oh hm I never noticed that
18:48:55 <ais523> there's an option to turn a) the delay, b) the intermediate rendering off
18:55:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, (took a while to load)
18:56:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, no way to get to the absolute top and do a spherical pano?
18:57:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the upload pipe again. The second one is at http://zem.fi/~fis/hp2.jpg and it's a bit larger (2.2M vs. 1.3M in bytes) so it'll probably take even longer.
18:58:47 <fizzie> There's a pile of antennas and such up there in the middle, so I'm sure it's technically speaking possible to get there, but it's not open to the public, no.
19:00:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm the antennas would block the view
19:00:40 <Vorpal> would need to remove them while taking the pano
19:03:51 <fizzie> In hp2.jpg there's the Otaniemi (where TKK's... sorry, Aalto University School of Science and Technomancy's campus is) water tower sort-of visible, though you pretty much have to know what you're looking for. It's a bit strange octagonal-ish shape too.
19:05:01 <fizzie> http://www.muuka.com/finnishpumpkin/towers/2/img/vote5.jpg is a google-searched image of it.
19:05:20 <fizzie> I guess that has a bit more than 8 sides, but polygonal anyway.
19:06:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, is hl2 not from the water tower?
19:06:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, whaaat?
19:07:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so they use powerful pumps instead?
19:07:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: They're both from the same place, just different directions.
19:07:33 <ais523> Vorpal: much of Scotland is rather mountainous
19:07:36 <ais523> including most of the water sources
19:07:44 <ais523> so I imagine they can mostly just use gravity
19:08:03 <Vorpal> ais523, so they just put reservoirs uphill?
19:12:17 <Vorpal> there is one city near here that as a water tower that looks a bit like a mushroom in shape. It's officially named "The mushroom" (Svampen). There is some cafe near the top
19:12:23 <Vorpal> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svampen,_%C3%96rebro has an image of it
19:12:44 <Vorpal> the trees are actually quite near
19:12:51 <Vorpal> it is taller than it looks from the image on wikipedia
19:15:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://zem.fi/~fis/hp3.jpg -- and there's the third (last) one. It has a bit problematic exposure, mostly towards sunlight, but anyway. (Also shaped a bit differently, took it in two rows of five pics.)
19:15:16 <fizzie> Finland is very lacking in the mountains department.
19:15:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I must say, all of these water tower designs remind me of Edinburgh Airport's control tower.
19:15:50 <fizzie> There are some fells up north, but they're rather... lackluster, so to say.
19:16:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Edinburgh_Airport_Control_Tower.jpg
19:16:13 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, I thought Scandinavia had mountains aplenty? <-- not uniformly
19:16:18 <Vorpal> and yeah Finland lacks that
19:16:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and it's very flat in the part of Sweden that I live
19:16:56 <fizzie> Norway's a bit more edgy.
19:17:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, like a wormhole about to close
19:17:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I would be scared to travel up that ;)
19:17:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice last pano
19:19:01 <fizzie> Water towers here are usually just pretty boring "tall, slender cyliner, with a bit wider cylinder up top" designs; the Haukilahti UFO and Otaniemi nut-and-bolt styles are the exceptions.
19:19:18 <fizzie> Oh, and there's a silly-looking one in Espoonlahti: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UnH8iNDl81s/SV4vLcBaRnI/AAAAAAAAAOY/jx2AkN5cZwM/s1600-h/IMG_0512.JPG
19:19:26 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: ITYM s/nicer/smaller/. :p
19:19:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Truly, Scotland has severely missed out on this font of architectural weirdness.
19:21:01 <fizzie> There's another UFO in Lauttasaari: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:Lauttasaari_water_tower.JPG
19:21:33 <fizzie> It's been decommissioned, also; there's no water up there, or anything else.
19:21:50 <fizzie> They've planned all sorts of stuff, like a wall-climbing place, but nothing has materialized.
19:22:10 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal's break my computer <-- that's your computer's issue
19:22:59 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> That one looks more mushroomy. <-- well, that depends on your point of view
19:24:02 <fizzie> Oh, oh, and the Hanko water tower has inexplicably a fish-shaped weather vane on top: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Hankoo_water_tower_July_10_2005.JPG
19:24:09 <fizzie> I don't know what's the story on that one.
19:25:08 <Vorpal> http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&biw=1614&bih=685&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=Svampen+%C3%96rebro&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
19:25:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there are some more pictures there
19:25:34 <Vorpal> plus for unknown reason the Örebro Castle
19:25:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, from which one?
19:26:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think the side view is quite nice
19:26:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, like an UFO parked on top of a giant concrete mushroom
19:27:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and the one fizzie linked was a different water tower
19:28:45 <fizzie> Yeah, mine was in Finland.
19:29:02 <fizzie> The Haukilahti UFO is also lit up so that it looks even more UFOy at night. I can't seem to find a nice high-resolution photo, but http://www.fonecta.fi/images/stillpics///files/343303.fonecta.client/1236243011351_1_large.jpg
19:29:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, they light up Svampen too. And sometimes in neon colours
19:30:05 <fizzie> Hah, and there's this one in Lahti, Finland: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UnH8iNDl81s/SVe3phDYq7I/AAAAAAAAAMo/l9xbqWAA5SI/s1600-h/IMG_0445.JPG
19:30:20 <Phantom_Hoover> For some reason I cannot comprehend, the relief map of Scotland I found on Google has "ALBANIA" written on it.
19:30:23 <fizzie> It looks like it's some sort of low-polygon approximation.
19:30:39 <Vorpal> I remember reading that Svampen was built top to bottom, using cranes to suspend the upper parts
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19:30:46 <Vorpal> while the lower ones were being build
19:31:02 <Vorpal> <fizzie> It looks like it's some sort of low-polygon approximation. <-- indeed
19:31:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently Albania is not in southeastern Europe as previously believed, but in the Highlands.
19:31:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm would fit right into darwinia!
19:34:22 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: There's a tiny little swamp (formerly a village, now there's something like three farms) near Lieksa (where our summer places are) called "Egyptinkorpi", lit. "Egypt's woods/wilderness/backwoods" (the "korpi" part is a bit tricky to translate).
19:34:34 <fizzie> I've always wondered about the name when driving past the road-sign pointing that way.
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19:35:06 <fizzie> As close as I can determine, there's nothing whatsoever "egyptian" about the place.
19:35:33 <fizzie> (It's right next to the Russian border, but I don't see how that would be relevant either.)
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19:35:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about the "Klockrike" somewhere near Linköping in Sweden?
19:35:53 <Vorpal> that's a pretty strange one too
19:36:32 <Vorpal> translates to something like "Country of Clocks" or such, a bit hard to translate the actual meaning.
19:36:38 <fizzie> OTOH, the named one village "Hörhö", which is the Finnish word for, well, "crackpot".
19:36:48 <Vorpal> or maybe "Country of bells"
19:36:55 <Vorpal> hard to tell, same word
19:37:00 <fizzie> "Hi, where are you from?" "Oh, uh, well.. the crackpot-land, actually..."
19:37:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, could be of Swedish origin?
19:37:50 <Vorpal> not very sensible, but better
19:38:03 <fizzie> I think that would be more likely on the western side, but I guess it's always a possibility.
19:38:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, "hörö" I would have said was a lot more likely as a Swedish place name, since ö = island
19:39:01 <Vorpal> and it isn't exactly uncommon for place names to end in -ö
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19:39:37 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of -ö's in Finland, too. Especially since most of our islands tend to be in the more-or-less Swedish-speaking areas.
19:46:54 <nooga> i've got brown cheese from norway/1
19:48:41 <Vorpal> nooga, as opposed to norway/2?
19:48:49 <Vorpal> is that version number? arity number? division?
19:49:47 <fizzie> Okay, opened in openstreetmap approximately the middle third of the coastline between Helsinki and Hanko: it shows 24 place-names, and ten of those end in -ö. (Strömsö, Storramjö, Skämmö, Jakobramsjö, Vålö, Stora Fagerö, Svinö, Kalvö, Lilla Svartö, Träskö. And I guess you can count Kyrkogårdsön too. And there's Mallholmen and five "-landet"s. And only three that end in "-saari" (fi:island).)
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19:50:39 <fizzie> (I'm assuming osm is showing the "primary" names here; many have names both in Finnish and Swedish.)
19:51:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, the one ending in -sjö is "lake" not "island"
19:51:58 <Vorpal> (it doesn't make sense splitting it elsewhere)
19:52:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, -landet is a strange ending
19:53:06 <Vorpal> and -holmen translates to "island" too I think. Basically same idea anyway
19:53:25 <nooga> norway/1 = norway, doesn't it?
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19:55:14 <Vorpal> nooga, depends on what / is. And if it *is* division, what if it is floating point: who knows, especially on pentiums
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19:59:03 <fizzie> nooga: Lit. translated: "weird bump".
19:59:26 <fizzie> (Or maybe "weirdhill", but I like the word "bump" more.)
19:59:54 <fizzie> Wiktionary says (of kumpu): "A hummock, hillock (small natural elevation of earth, generally smaller than kukkula (“hill”), larger than kumpare (“knoll”))."
20:00:12 <fizzie> (And "outo" is weird, strange.)
20:00:24 <fizzie> Strangehill sounds like someone's name.
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20:20:03 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, my sister's P1 teacher was called Mrs Strange.
20:22:03 <fizzie> I just somehow was reminded of Mr Underhill.
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20:29:56 <alise> ais523: I had a Nethack bot idea.
20:30:42 <fizzie> ais523: Are you saying "oh dear" just to be negative?
20:31:12 <ais523> it's a typical response to ideas
20:31:14 <alise> ais523: is that an "oh dear, I hope it doesn't manage to find a way to recursively self-improve and take over the world?"
20:31:23 <alise> because if so, thanks for the compliment!
20:31:58 <alise> ais523: are you interested in hearing it? it's okay if not
20:34:48 <alise> ais523: the idea is basically to be stupid. The bot knows how to move around, and what keys are actually valid actions; it knows how to respond to prompts, and it knows how to use menus and the inventory. But... nothing else. It has no idea that q quaffs, for instance. How does it find out? Simple! Everything is quantified, like in Planar, into a resource: HP, gold, etc. Things which are bad are resources that are always negative: for instance, every item w
20:34:48 <alise> ould have a negative inventory-space, every action would have a negative turns-gained, and so on. To start with, apart from when it wants to move somewhere, it acts completely at random. Every time it chooses an action, it notes some subset -- I'm not sure which yet -- of its environment, and the effects it had on all resources.
20:35:18 <alise> Then it becomes a case of "each turn, sort all possible actions by how richer they make me; if two items are equal, sort them randomly. Then pick the top action, and do it."
20:35:19 <ais523> hmm, you're trying to come up with a new AI algo, based on learning?
20:35:26 <alise> ais523: Pretty much. But the key here is:
20:35:28 <ais523> the issue is that what an action does depends on context so much
20:35:32 <alise> It would save this state in a file.
20:35:38 <ais523> well, that's obvious...
20:35:38 <alise> So it could die, and play again, and die, and play again, and learn.
20:35:46 <alise> ais523: well, no, because it's not obvious that it persists across games
20:35:49 <alise> which is the important thing
20:36:00 <ais523> learning algos normally persist...
20:36:13 <alise> It's also not obvious that it does any learning :)
20:36:31 <alise> ais523: I'm not sure what context to give.
20:36:47 <ais523> which is why it's a problem
20:37:06 <alise> I think perhaps a neighbourhood -- say two to three squares out? -- of cells, plus any special states: hunger, burden, and so on.
20:37:12 <alise> Oh, and for things like quaffing it would note what object it was, of course.
20:37:39 <alise> Of course, this is fundamentally probabilistic in the end; it may do something obviously stupid simply because it was never stupid before, and that's unavoidable. Still, stupid heuristics have surprisingly high success rates, I find...
20:38:15 <alise> ais523: psht, TAEB cheats at Telnet negotiation
20:38:24 <alise> it should clearly use a CPAN Telnet module which makes every part of it object-oriented
20:38:31 <alise> and tell that object what it will and won't do
20:38:38 <ais523> alise: IO::Telnet::HalfDuplex is on CPAN...
20:38:46 <ais523> admittedly, it was invented for TAEB, but it's still useful
20:38:59 <alise> http://github.com/sartak/TAEB/blob/master/lib/TAEB/Interface/Telnet.pm
20:39:05 <alise> http://github.com/sartak/TAEB/blob/master/lib/TAEB/Interface/Telnet.pm#L149
20:39:10 <alise> github.com/sartak/TAEB/blob/master/lib/TAEB/Interface/Telnet.pm#L149
20:39:14 <alise> it cheats at the actual negotiation
20:41:14 <alise> ais523: do you think the architecture has any hope of working:
20:41:23 <Vorpal> I got this strange thing from rosegarden "libgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for pthread_cancel to work"
20:41:24 <alise> obviously it'd have to be a melee fighter, not a wizard or anything
20:41:28 <alise> since that requires too large a range
20:41:54 <Vorpal> rosegarden actually works
20:41:57 <alise> I think if you ran it for a month or two, automatically respawning, it could do something sane.
20:42:00 <Vorpal> it just tells me that at exit
20:42:07 <alise> Oh, you'd have to have level-increase as a positive resource.
20:44:20 <alise> ais523: I think the chances of it ever ascending are zero, but I bet it could figure out the mines.
20:44:28 <alise> Sokoban... mmmmmmmnope.
20:44:38 <alise> Unless you cheated and had a built in resource called made-sokoban-closer-to-complete.
20:44:44 <alise> Then it might be able to learn.
20:47:28 <alise> I wonder if Moose is more comprehensive than CLOS?
20:47:34 <alise> It's inspired in many ways by CLOS, so...
20:47:53 <alise> It might just be equal.
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20:49:00 <Vorpal> <ais523> alise: IO::Telnet::HalfDuplex is on CPAN... <--- half duplex???
20:49:10 <Vorpal> can telnet operate in anything except full duplex?
20:50:42 <Vorpal> alise, I'm just so utterly astonished!
20:51:16 <Vorpal> alise, since tcp inherently provides full duplex it seems very strange
20:52:55 <Vorpal> alise, you tried gobolinux iirc?
20:53:05 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah. NixOS is cooler.
20:53:06 <Vorpal> alise, what was your opinion on it?
20:53:17 <alise> It's like GoboLinux but rollbackable! And awesome! And it has 64-bit support!
20:53:27 <Vorpal> alise, sure nixos is cooler, but I still wonder about gobolinux
20:53:29 <alise> And it doesn't use irritatingly sentence-cased directories!
20:53:50 <Vorpal> alise, sentence cased? As in "Binaries"?
20:53:51 <alise> Vorpal: Well... it's better than the usual organisation, but the community just isn't there to make it work nicely, you know? So it lags behind.
20:53:56 <alise> NixOS is more actively developed and, moreover, cooler.
20:54:01 <alise> Vorpal: /Programs/KDE-Libs/
20:54:07 <Vorpal> alise, have you tried nixos more than just livecd?
20:54:17 <alise> Vorpal: I'm going to install it if all goes according to plan
20:54:20 <alise> besides, it ships stock packages
20:54:28 <alise> and i already now how Nix itself works
20:54:32 <alise> so i already know what it is :P
20:54:35 <Vorpal> alise, ah, figured out issue with complex configs in etc?
20:54:39 <Vorpal> I didn't find from docs
20:54:47 <alise> configuration is done in configuration.nix
20:55:04 <Vorpal> alise, yes sure, and there was that sshd.start or whatever
20:55:24 <alise> forget that last line
20:55:31 <Vorpal> alise, but what if you want to set sshd configs like:
20:55:31 <alise> was writing something but train of thought got derailed
20:56:02 <alise> Vorpal: I believe that will also be handled.
20:56:10 <alise> I can take a peek at the manual to see.
20:56:23 <Vorpal> alise, I checked the manuals on the website, and the wiki, and found nothing
20:56:29 <alise> Vorpal: It is probable that many packages still have regular configuration files somewhere.
20:56:42 <alise> Also, #nixos does exist, you know, and they are friendly. They're Haskell folk.
20:56:55 <alise> http://hydra.nixos.org/build/639152/download/1/nixos/manual.html "Example 4.1" has complex configuration
20:57:03 <alise> with a cron job, for instance
20:57:05 <Vorpal> alise, basically, I would consider the whole thing flawed beyond use if you can't do everything that you can do in normal sshd_config
20:57:11 <alise> "shows the configuration file for the locate service"
20:57:14 <Vorpal> sure you may say most doesn't care, I do however
20:57:22 <alise> of course you can. don't be an idiot.
20:57:47 <alise> if you couldn't, I imagine they'd just make it use the default config file format, for instance
20:57:52 <alise> boot.extraModprobeConfig
20:57:52 <alise> Any additional configuration to be appended to the generated modprobe.conf. This is typically used to specify module options. See modprobe.conf(5) for details.
20:57:52 <alise> Example: "options parport_pc io=0x378 irq=7 dma=1\n"
20:58:01 <alise> so you can always, e.g., just say "oh and here's some strings to append"
20:58:33 <Vorpal> alise, I have custom ports and interfaces to listen to, and a lot more
20:59:48 <alise> https://svn.nixos.org/viewvc/nix/nixos/trunk/modules/services/networking/ssh/sshd.nix?revision=23872 appears to not have an append option, but i presume that's just because it's early days -- and nothing at all stops you from just making your own version of that file with such an option
21:00:26 <Vorpal> alise, there are a few config files that are often customised a lot and are very expressive. HTTPd and DNSds come to mind. As do radvd, ipsec stuff and sshd
21:00:51 <alise> s write your own service file that just writes the right config file :P
21:01:00 <alise> from a config setting
21:01:34 <Vorpal> alise, does the config do heredocs? sshd config would be non-trivial without that since it uses indention for blocks
21:02:00 <alise> as seen in https://svn.nixos.org/viewvc/nix/nixos/trunk/modules/services/networking/ssh/sshd.nix?revision=23872
21:02:26 <Vorpal> anyway yeah that file is too limited for me
21:02:57 <Vorpal> alise, for now I stay on arch, but nixos seems like an interesting distro, especially when it matured a bit
21:03:36 <alise> it's existed for two years or so :P
21:03:41 <alise> but yeah, early days
21:03:45 <alise> since it started out as academic
21:03:49 <Vorpal> arch is quite mature in a paradoxical way.
21:04:03 <Vorpal> On one hand it uses bleeding edge software, on the other hand the distro itself, the configuration stuff, and the community is quite mature
21:04:21 <alise> 19:17:11 <SgeoN2> flash keeps crashing
21:04:22 <alise> 19:17:21 <SgeoN2> I wonder if it's an old version
21:04:24 <alise> no, it just does that
21:04:32 <alise> Vorpal: the community is immature :)
21:04:35 <alise> sure mature as in age but the people...
21:04:41 <Vorpal> alise, depends which part of it
21:04:45 <ais523> <Vorpal> can telnet operate in anything except full duplex? <-- actually yes, but it doesn't work properly with curses
21:05:08 <Vorpal> ais523, why? telnet runs over tcp, tcp provides full duplex
21:05:11 <ais523> but IO::Telnet::HalfDuplex is designed to take a full-duplex telnet connection
21:05:15 <ais523> and make it half-duplex
21:05:26 <ais523> by working out when the other side has finished sending
21:05:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, google
21:06:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: "sending and receiving", in this concept
21:06:09 <ais523> full duplex does both at once, half duplex does one at the time
21:06:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how tricky would it have been to use google
21:06:54 <Vorpal> if it had any meaning I think it would be "disconnected"
21:07:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to use google
21:08:32 <Vorpal> alise, btw I looked at urbit and my first reaction was "wtf", the next one was "okay, the guy who designed that is a theorist, something like a+b looks like it would need O(n)..."
21:09:15 <alise> yeah, well, you are manifestly not the target audience.
21:09:17 <Vorpal> alise, if I was about to design a language to actually be practically usable I wouldn't start out with lambda calculus and try to write an optimising compiler for it.
21:09:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: a manifesto in two parts:
21:09:30 <Vorpal> well sure it isn't exactly lambda calculus
21:09:31 <alise> http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/nock-maxwells-equations-of-software.html
21:09:32 <alise> http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/urbit-functional-programming-from.html
21:09:34 <Vorpal> but about as efficient
21:09:39 <alise> Vorpal: it isn't even vaguely like the lambda calculus.
21:09:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: he's right in that addition is O(n) or something like it.
21:09:51 <alise> anyway, read the two posts.
21:09:57 <alise> the networking stuff is close to bang on. the rest is at least mind-expanding.
21:10:07 <Vorpal> alise, and multiplication is about O(n^2) at least
21:10:29 <alise> erm it's decrement that's difficult
21:10:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it has integers built in; anyway, just give them a read :P
21:10:45 <Vorpal> alise, and yes, decrement I have no clue how to do
21:10:50 <Vorpal> keep a list of integers?
21:11:05 <alise> considering his challenge for basic competency is to construct decrement, you're definitely losing
21:11:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, does it use Church numerals or their approximants?
21:11:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it has native integers.
21:11:29 <alise> Vorpal: he explains how to do it efficiently with jets in the Urbit post.
21:11:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not church numerals, but it has a successor function but no addition or such
21:11:57 <Vorpal> alise, so yeah, doing it in the compiler basically
21:12:02 <alise> anyway, an innovator sees an idea and thinks "in what ways is this interesting?", not "in what ways is this flawed?"
21:12:09 <alise> Vorpal: i will field no further loaded questions on the subject.
21:12:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, \(_,x) -> (x, S x) is the easiest way in the pure LC.
21:12:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this is not LC. I only said it looked about as efficient for practical implementation.
21:13:35 <Vorpal> alise, loaded? huh. Whatever.
21:13:50 <Vorpal> alise, and I think it is interesting. Just utterly impractical :P
21:14:00 <Vorpal> alise, as an esolang it would be quite cool
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21:26:59 <nooga> i've got a chair hat
21:27:09 <Vorpal> alise, or... lambda C++!
21:27:55 <nooga> my friend asked me did I ever coded in A and B languages
21:28:09 <nooga> i told him that i don't know such langs
21:28:19 <ais523> B does exist, at least
21:28:32 <nooga> and then he started talking total bullshit about them
21:28:42 <nooga> probably he was completely making everything up
21:28:50 <pikhq> There is no A, though.
21:29:00 <nooga> "A is even harder than C man"
21:29:00 <ais523> there probably is, but it's likely unrelated
21:29:08 <ais523> and various other letters
21:29:09 <Vorpal> B was preceded by something else iirc?
21:29:22 <ais523> the new lang was called B so as to save three bytes
21:29:33 <ais523> which I think was a joke, even though memory was tight at the time
21:29:47 <pikhq> B is probably more familiar to you than BCPL.
21:30:02 <Vorpal> ais523, good thing we didn't get the zero length string as a language
21:30:11 <Vorpal> that would have been awkward
21:30:14 <pikhq> (it looks like a K&R C with even less type safety)
21:30:16 <ais523> great esolang name idea!
21:30:37 <Vorpal> ais523, but how would we put it on the wiki
21:30:51 <Vorpal> ais523, btw why did you name feather "feather"?
21:30:53 <ais523> under a different name, probably
21:30:57 <ais523> and because it's lightweight
21:31:13 <nooga> so feather is smalltalky
21:31:19 <Vorpal> ais523, I can't say I have dealt enough with smalltalk to know how heavy it is
21:32:18 <pikhq> Vorpal: Light, except that it is on a virtual machine.
21:32:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, you can make lightweight virtual machines
21:33:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, and is there any specific reason you can't compile smalltalk to native code?
21:33:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you can compile some lisps
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21:34:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, scheme for example because you could suddenly redefine + to mean something else on the fly, which would hugely complicate compiling
21:35:24 <ais523> pikhq: Smalltalk needs a heavy standard library to function correctly
21:35:31 <ais523> or at least, in a smalltalky way
21:35:37 <ais523> that can't be implemented in Smalltalk itself
21:35:46 <ais523> things like class classes, etc
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21:38:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm I should put up an image just to see how you will react...
21:38:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: Smalltalk is kinda set up assuming that it *is the system*. You *could* compile it, but it's not very Smalltalky.
21:38:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, can you stay for maybe 5-10 minutes?
21:39:21 <Sgeo> I may have to drag benuphoenix in here
21:44:57 <alise> ais523: did you answer my question about my "AI"? sorry, i've lost track of backlog
21:45:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I have verified that this doesn't crash my browser, can't know if it crashes your of course. It shouldn't. http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/test.png
21:45:59 <Vorpal> after all it is just 16 kB
21:46:22 <Vorpal> (was using du -sh not du -bsh)
21:46:26 <alise> What an impressively stupidly empty image.
21:46:36 <alise> Was that really what you sent Phantom_Hoover two vague messages about?
21:46:38 <Vorpal> alise, i just want to test a theory
21:46:49 <Vorpal> alise, he said he crashed on my panoramas
21:47:03 <Vorpal> alise, I want to test if it is large image file or large image size that does it
21:47:14 <Vorpal> alise, anyway it isn't empy
21:47:25 <Vorpal> alise, check the two outermost pixles on left and right
21:47:53 <Sgeo> >Sgeo< CTCP VERSION
21:47:53 <Sgeo> -Sgeo- VERSION xchat 0.26.1 Linux 2.6.32-24-generic [i686
21:48:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover seems to have timed out eh?
21:48:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
21:48:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, so what happened?
21:48:31 <Sgeo> The weirdly low-looking version
21:48:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, a few questions: What OS? What browser (and version)? How much RAM?
21:48:46 <alise> Sgeo: that's xchat-gnome's version?
21:48:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:48:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: you don't have to answer that. </lawyet>
21:48:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I'm trying to help you here, diagnosing the cause!
21:48:59 <Sgeo> But someone might think it's plain XChat
21:49:08 <alise> Sgeo: Oh noooooooooooo
21:49:22 <Sgeo> And think it's an absurdly low version
21:49:32 <alise> Oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
21:49:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I can see how it would cause issues if you have 128 MB RAM
21:49:37 <Vorpal> but anything modern? No
21:49:55 <alise> <Vorpal> AH THE PROBLEM IS UBUNTU
21:50:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, then your system is broken. It works fine on my ubuntu of same version, 64-bit, Firefox 3.6 with just 2 GB RAM
21:50:24 <Vorpal> and it works fine on my desktop with 1.5 GB RAM
21:50:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I tested in firefox. Firefox got slow for about 5 seconds on my old sempron CPU then showed the image
21:50:50 <alise> Yes. Your system is broken. That is the only explanation. You are inadequate.
21:51:32 <Vorpal> alise, yes because it doesn't happen to anyone else and he has more RAM than me (and RAM is the only real potential issue). This leaves firefox or the system being broken.
21:51:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, perhaps it is some firefox addon that causes this?
21:51:51 <alise> it used to happen to me.
21:52:12 <Vorpal> alise, do you remember what changed when it stopped happening?
21:53:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, it might be worth trying firefox in safe mode on that page
21:53:43 <Vorpal> that would be: firefox -safe-mode
21:54:06 <Sgeo> Is xtrlock acceptable?
21:54:07 <Sgeo> Maybe xlockmore
21:54:40 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what do they do?
21:55:06 <Vorpal> Sgeo, x screen lockers? then I suggest using whatever the DE uses by default or slock
21:55:15 <Sgeo> Or maybe I should just set a password
21:55:28 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you should have a password on your user of course
21:55:32 <Vorpal> I presumed you already did
21:55:43 <Sgeo> I'm using a LiveUSB-like thingy
21:55:49 <Sgeo> Maybe I should switch to Knoppix
21:56:01 <Sgeo> Might be easier to boot from CD and read data from USB
21:56:18 <alise> Also, no, it's not.
21:56:20 <alise> Keep using Ubuntu.
21:57:09 <Sgeo> What does Ubuntu have that Knoppix doesn't, besides GNOME and installability?
21:57:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, did you hear the disk access a lot during the freeze?
21:57:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, indicating swap trashing
21:57:31 <Sgeo> Ok, GNOME's lock screen thingy doesn't work
21:58:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, did sysrq work? could you switch to a terminal with ctrl-alt-F1?
21:58:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I assume you tried both
21:58:58 <Sgeo> alise, answer please?
21:59:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, anyway, can you wget it and open it in gimp without issues? That shouldn't crash.
21:59:48 <Vorpal> as in, there is no plausible way it could
21:59:56 <alise> What does Ubuntu have that Windows doesn't?
22:00:02 <alise> There is no reason to arbitrarily pick an inferior option merely because it is different.
22:00:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, oh and what GPU? I'm considering if it could be some obscure hw double buffer size thingy limit, but firefox probably doesn't do zooming in opengl, so unlikely
22:01:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, a) I didn't try to zoom; b) my GPU is whatever crap Intel glued to the motherboard.
22:01:37 -!- Sgeo|irssi has joined.
22:01:46 <alise> SLOCK JUST USE SLOCK DAMMIT
22:01:53 <alise> i never said i3lock
22:02:01 <alise> So fucking compile it!
22:02:05 <Sgeo|irssi> Which was supposedly an improved version of slock
22:02:11 -!- trinithis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:02:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, works for me on intel crap so hm
22:02:15 <alise> Anyway, what's wrong with it?
22:02:19 <alise> You type your password in the screen.
22:02:24 <alise> You type your password.
22:02:34 <Vorpal> alise, i3lock != slock
22:02:42 <alise> i just looked it up
22:02:54 <Vorpal> Sgeo|irssi, there is no password prompt, type password, hit enter
22:02:56 <Sgeo> There was never a prompt to type it
22:02:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo|irssi, that's all
22:03:05 <alise> ugh, i3lock uses pam. and supports backgrounds. and beeps on wrong passwords (pointless). and uses PAM
22:03:31 <Vorpal> alise, pam has the advantage of supporting stuff like ldap
22:03:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: slock is minimalist code.
22:03:57 <Vorpal> alise, sure, but there is no other alternative that exists today
22:03:58 <alise> i know you've never heard of minimalism, but there you go
22:04:03 <alise> Vorpal: not using LDAP
22:04:09 <Vorpal> alise, true, kerberos then
22:04:19 <alise> Vorpal: not using kerberos
22:04:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: *Sgeo:
22:04:26 -!- trinithis has joined.
22:04:40 <Vorpal> I think pam is moderately useful
22:05:28 -!- Sgeo|irssi has quit (Client Quit).
22:05:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: *resemble
22:05:29 <Vorpal> alise, I'm sure you wouldn't want plain shadow auth if you had to admin a network of 200 workstations with hundred of users where everyone could log in at any computer
22:05:32 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
22:05:35 <Vorpal> alise, say, university network
22:05:43 <Vorpal> alise, then you might see the point of network auth
22:05:48 <alise> Vorpal: yeah, well, sysadminning is hell.
22:05:51 <alise> which is why only the stupid do it
22:06:10 <Vorpal> alise, but I'm just saying *network auth is sometimes useful*
22:06:15 <alise> blah blah blah robots
22:06:28 <Vorpal> alise, and *there exists no other good alternative to pam currently for this*
22:06:44 <Vorpal> I'm not saying I like pam, I don't
22:06:59 <Vorpal> but yeah, until someone written an alternative it is useful
22:07:04 <Sgeo> DOes ActiveDirectory do something similar?
22:07:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, activedirectory is iirc ldap + MS extensions
22:09:06 <Vorpal> alise, PAM is very much like unix: it isn't perfect, but it works (of course, in many other senses it is very different, such as "keep it simple", pam doesn't)
22:09:21 <alise> very much like Windows in that way too.
22:09:34 <Vorpal> alise, very much like x86!
22:09:47 <Vorpal> alise, heck it is very much like mostly everything mainstream
22:10:37 <alise> 19:48:09 <SgeoN1> The reason I want it spun down is to avoid damaging it further
22:10:42 <alise> you can't spin it down and rescue it at the same time...
22:11:09 <Sgeo> alise, I gave up on rescuing it for the moment
22:11:44 <Vorpal> I will leave further disk rescue help to you alise. I will have a hard time explaining the indention on my face matching the couture of the front of my desk.
22:12:13 <alise> i defer future disk rescue help to Vorpal
22:12:18 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you have just been acting too stupidly through all this to get any further help from me.
22:13:32 <Sgeo> I have another computer that I think I'm going to use for this
22:16:15 <alise> 21:52:22 <quintopia> what's the minimum one would need to do to make plain TeX turing-complete?
22:16:19 <Sgeo> My understanding is that I could, in fact, pause it
22:18:32 <alise> you can, but doing it across machines is dumb. and your drive is losing data every time you touch it, which is why you try and avoid doing anything but recovering it as soon as it happens.
22:18:37 <alise> also, i defer to Vorpal.
22:18:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hypothesis: all operating system ads are so obnoxious that the rage of people watching them could be used for power. Discuss.
22:18:49 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:19:14 <Sgeo> I didn't realize it would take that long
22:19:30 <Sgeo> Leaving it would have meant needing to pause it before Mondays and Wednesdays, and resuming when I got back
22:21:04 <Sgeo> I'm going to get ready to go home, I think
22:21:07 <Sgeo> Bye for now all
22:21:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat).
22:22:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: There are several people rolling in their graves right now; that's more efficient.
22:22:15 <alise> I forget who my main idea was.
22:26:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> i.e. one which actually makes you think "hey, I might install this."
22:29:21 <alise> well some of the proposed linux ones were funny but they didn't win
22:33:55 <alise> long lost it by now
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23:03:31 <nooga> ia Atat a nice name?
23:11:43 <alise> ais523: is "Student-Friendly Summary" allowed on Wikipedia?...
23:11:46 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_conditions_for_temperature_and_pressure
23:11:54 <alise> sounds like Here We Do Your Homework In The First Paragraph
23:13:44 <alise> nooga: sane style or stupid style?
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23:18:15 <ais523> alise: that doesn't really sound like it fits the style guides...
23:18:24 <ais523> but I haven't read them for years
23:18:36 <alise> the link has it; I'm just pondering whether to remove it with a chainsaw or not
23:18:48 <alise> [[Standard conditions for atmosphere and pressure]]
23:38:20 <pikhq> Where auto ownership is nearly mandatory.
23:53:33 <cpressey> And yet radio ownership continues to be optional. Hard to conceive, isn't it.
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23:55:53 <ais523> actually, there's a proposed law in the US government (I'm not sure which branch, offhand) to make FM radios mandatory on mobile phones
23:56:01 <ais523> I doubt it'll get very far, it's so ridiculous...
23:59:36 <pikhq> ais523: The RIAA was advocating that the FCC mandate it.
23:59:49 <pikhq> Yes, the RIAA, bastion of retardedness.
00:00:04 <ais523> unfortunately, that makes it more likely to pass than if a politician proposed it
00:01:02 <pikhq> Thankfully, it was proposed by the FCC.
00:01:23 <pikhq> Who can tell them to go suck a dick without fear of repercussion (because loud morons won't complain about it).
00:01:31 <pikhq> Erm. Proposed *to* the FCC.
00:15:57 <alise> I need a DHT expert.
00:15:59 <alise> You, pikhq! Be a DHT expert.
00:19:29 <alise> <alise> nooga: sane style or stupid style?
00:19:32 <alise> i mean dfa/nfa etc
00:21:28 * alise decides that the only way to get aliseOS done is to split it into tiny, tiny little research experiments of different components
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00:26:17 <pikhq> alise: This is probably the best way of getting any large project done.
00:26:42 <alise> pikhq: Except at the end I can't combine them all, since they'll be custom-built. Of course, this doesn't matter -- there is no end!
00:26:55 <alise> Never has there been a more NIH and more slow-paced project than aliseOS.
00:27:13 <alise> Even Feather has the beginnings of an implementation and a preliminary syntax.
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00:29:07 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, you're Consultant #1. I have decided to start numbering my consultants, as I have discovered I am too ridiculous to name them.
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00:42:08 <alise> I wonder if it is physically possible for anyone to read everything Mencius Moldbug has written.
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00:54:51 <ais523> well, I imagine Mencius Mlodbug did
01:02:45 <alise> ais523: i think he multitasks
01:02:53 <alise> making toast, tap on the keyboard a little
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01:25:34 <Sgeo> Are logfiles compatible across different versions of ddrescue?
01:25:44 <Sgeo> I'm thinking of using Parted Magic's ddrescue to finish it
01:26:02 <Sgeo> Also: If I use my old computer, there is a risk that, if there's a blackout, it will stop
01:26:10 <Sgeo> The logfile will still be intact, right?
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01:31:32 * Sgeo wonders if alise is awake and if so, if alise is simply refusing to talk about this issue
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01:38:37 <Sgeo> My current plan: Wait to get an external HD mount. Set up old computer to do the ddrescue
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01:57:23 <alise> Sgeo: although one last thing.
01:57:33 <alise> think hard about whether the things on that drive truly make you happier.
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04:29:23 <Sgeo> Current battle plan: Help rebuild my dad's 2002 computer. Do not accidentally fry motherboard. Use computer to finish the ddrescue
04:32:11 <Sgeo> alise, I'm forcibly undeferring you
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05:25:55 <Sgeo> My busy message on my IM accounts: "Do Sgeos dream of electric esolangs?"
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06:55:25 <webquint> someone suggest me a language on the wiki that I haven't looked at yet and isn't the same old thing.
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07:05:01 <webquint> "developed by Gregor Richards" :D
07:05:14 <Gregor> OK, I could be biased :P
07:06:02 <Gregor> At least I didn't say "Glass, 2L, ORK and FYB!"
07:08:03 <webquint> well, I was just looking at the *L's so that would be impertinent anyway
07:08:59 <webquint> what's the most unique thing about glass? what's the thing i never saw before? or is it just the way things i've seen before have been putted together?
07:12:38 <webquint> it hasn't been long since i looked at fyb either
07:18:59 <augur> anyone familiar enough with scheme's call/cc to answer some questions?
07:19:10 <lament> hopefully everybody in the channel
07:19:52 <augur> lament: assumie (define (f return) (return 2) 3)
07:20:00 <augur> (display (call/cc f)) ; displays 2
07:21:42 <lament> i got lost on (define (f return) (return 2) 3)
07:22:53 <lament> is that an implicit begin block?
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07:26:19 <lament> nooo my favourite gay person is gone
07:27:28 <Gregor> webquint: Glass is OO, which is rare for esolangs (although certainly not rare for real languages). Glass is stack-based, which is rare both for OO and for real languages.
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07:29:35 <Gregor> lament: There, he's back.
07:30:05 <Gregor> lament: That's nothing to yay about :P
07:30:08 <webquint> But not as much as Schrodilang. That one wins the night for me.
07:30:23 <augur> my client is all wonky
07:31:21 <lament> augur: (define (f return) (return 2) 3)
07:31:26 <lament> is that an implicit begin block?
07:31:30 <augur> lament: http://pastebin.org/1016674
07:31:35 <augur> from similar askings in #haskell
07:33:01 <lament> your "explanation" is more like an attempt to make things more confusing than they are
07:33:10 <lament> it's not that it's wrong
07:33:17 <augur> lament: maybe. its very clear and sensible to me :)
07:33:27 <lament> but i can't understand it despite knowing what call/cc does
07:33:43 <augur> ok, can you explain then how call/cc works, implementation-ish-wise?
07:34:11 <lament> (call/cc f) calls f with the current continuation, right?
07:34:21 <lament> just like the name says
07:34:22 <augur> sure, but i dont know what the current continuation is
07:34:30 <lament> ok then that's the important bit
07:34:32 <augur> im trying to understand how thats built up
07:34:40 <lament> continuations are still a concept in absence of call/cc
07:34:57 <lament> a continuation is the rest of your program
07:35:03 <augur> ok first let me just try this right
07:35:23 <lament> it's easiest to understand them in an imperative language without any state
07:35:25 <augur> using f from before
07:35:36 <lament> just a bunch of statements
07:35:40 <augur> (+ 1 (* 2 (call/cc f))) == ???
07:35:49 <lament> then the continuation is literally the rest of your program
07:36:06 <lament> when you're on the line print "hi", your continuation is just print "blah"
07:36:33 <lament> but because scheme has expressions and not statements, it gets slightly more complicated
07:37:12 <lament> the continuation of (call/cc f) in (+ 1 (* 2 (call/cc f))) is (+ 1 (* 2 ...))
07:37:17 <lament> it's the unevaluated bit
07:37:41 <lament> and normally ... is replaced by whatever (call/cc f) is evaluated to right?
07:37:43 <augur> so its the highest possible thing being evaluated at any given moment?
07:37:55 <lament> it's the rest of your program
07:38:11 <augur> so its genuinely program-scope
07:38:38 <augur> so then what happens is...
07:38:41 <lament> now what call/cc does is
07:38:53 <lament> it allows you to pass anything to the continuation
07:38:54 <augur> you say (eval '(+ 1 (* 2 (call/cc f)))) ...
07:39:01 <augur> unwind this evaluation for me, if you can
07:39:12 <lament> i said that conceptually the continuation is (+ 1 (* 2 ...))
07:39:20 <lament> but specifically in scheme
07:39:38 <lament> it's a function that takes a parameter and places it in the ...
07:39:50 <lament> (lambda (x) (+ 1 (* 2 x)))
07:40:10 <lament> so that's what f gets called with
07:40:27 <lament> except it's not just (lambda (x) (+ 1 (* 2 x)))
07:40:33 <lament> it's actually the outer expression
07:40:42 <augur> the outer expression?
07:41:01 <lament> it is the (+ 1 (* 2 (call/cc f))) that was evaluated
07:41:59 <lament> in terms of control flow
07:42:01 <augur> ok, so .. what does that mean? how can it be the ... that was evaluated?
07:42:08 <augur> you mean like in terms of environments or what?
07:42:11 <lament> what this means in terms of control flow
07:42:19 <lament> (define (f return) (return 2) 3)
07:42:42 <lament> we call f with the current continuation which is (display ...)
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07:43:02 <lament> we start executing f and have to evaluate (return 2)
07:43:37 <lament> return is the continuation
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07:44:04 <lament> when we call it control flow returns into (display ...)
07:44:14 <lament> the outer expression of your program
07:44:47 <lament> evaluation of f abruptly terminates
07:44:57 <lament> we never actually finish evaluating it
07:45:03 <augur> because eval isnt just going to say aha call f!
07:45:07 <lament> 3 never gets evaluated
07:45:40 <augur> its going to say ok, '(display (call/cc f)) thats an application, so thats (apply (eval (car that)) (map eval (cdr that)) env)
07:45:52 <augur> or whatever the interpreter is doing there
07:46:25 <augur> so unwind it from there if possible
07:47:00 <lament> (map eval (cdr that)) env) returns 2
07:47:05 <lament> at the moment that return gets called
07:47:53 <augur> but why is it going to return 2
07:48:04 <lament> i don't understand the question
07:48:11 <augur> itll just be (eval '((call/cc f)))
07:48:12 <lament> that's how call/cc works?
07:48:27 <lament> call/cc is a magical function
07:48:30 <augur> so whats going on with the stack and so forth
07:48:34 <augur> well i KNOw its magical
07:48:38 <augur> i want to UNDERSTAND the magic!
07:48:57 <lament> and passes it the current continuation :(
07:49:07 <lament> the current continuation is a magical object
07:49:19 <lament> how does call/cc get it, by magic
07:49:21 <fizzie> lament: I'm not sure if this was answered yet, but (define (f return) (return 2) 3) = (define f (lambda (return) (return 2) 3)) and lambda's have "an implicit begin block" in the sense that you can put multiple expressions in, and it works like in a begin. I've seen at least some implementations (incl. my own) that actually translate multi-expression lambdas into single-begin-block lambdas for convenience.
07:49:46 <lament> augur: the current continuation really is magical
07:49:57 <lament> it is created by magical means
07:50:05 <lament> it encapsulates the state of the execution
07:50:11 <lament> so it pretty much has to be magical
07:50:31 <lament> no that's how it works
07:50:52 <lament> it collects all the state, stores it somewhere
07:51:16 <augur> so it starts evaling (+ 1 (* 2 (call/cc f)))
07:51:20 <lament> in such a way that it becomes possible to return to that moment of execution
07:51:23 <augur> builds up some call stacks or whatever
07:51:45 <lament> call/cc is evaluated, does its magic
07:51:55 <lament> copying those call stacks somewhere
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07:52:12 <lament> and packaging this as a nice callable object, the current continuation
07:52:35 <fizzie> I'm probably going to confuse this even more, but it doesn't necessarily involve any copying, just additional references, if your stack is just a garbage-collected heap.
07:52:44 <augur> fizzie: sure, thats fine
07:52:59 <augur> so it packages it all up as a pseudoprocthingybopper called the current continuation
07:53:20 <augur> then it calls (f that-current-continuation)
07:53:27 <lament> now for as long as the continuation object exist, you can effectively return to that moment in time
07:53:32 <lament> by calling the continuation
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07:53:50 <lament> call stack and everything else gets restored
07:54:05 <lament> and (call/cc f) itself returns the value that the continuation was called with
07:54:56 <lament> it's pretty awesome, you travel back in time but bring new information with you
07:55:03 <lament> you could win the lottery this way
07:57:18 <fizzie> Can't resist pasting the full call/cc primitive code (5 lines) in my silly little scheme-course-programming-project implementation:
07:57:25 <fizzie> That's not very much magic at all.
07:57:53 <lament> i meant magic in the sense of not being anything like scheme code
07:58:40 <lament> strange incantations in assembly don't have to be long to be powerful :)
07:59:01 <augur> lament: what would happen with (define (f return) (return 2) (return 3))
07:59:20 <lament> augur: (return 3) never gets evaluated, just like 3 never got evaluated before
07:59:29 <augur> could it ever get evaluated
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08:00:36 <augur> ok, so its not a yield, its an actual return here
08:00:49 <lament> well the stack and everything else gets replaced
08:00:57 <lament> by the continuation inside return
08:01:11 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure you could sort-of do a pure Scheme call/cc implementation, with some pretty hairy macros to CPS everything else, after which call/cc is just (define (call/cc f k) (f k k)), assuming f gets turned into (define (f return k) (return 2) (k 3)).
08:03:42 <lament> augur: the next step on the path of enlightenment for you is to figure out how CPS compares with GOTOs
08:03:52 <augur> fizzie: how hairy would the macros be? i mean, i presume you mean scheme macros, not some magic compiler macros, yeah?
08:04:19 <lament> scheme macros, pretty damn hairy
08:04:32 <augur> so in theory maybe some non-scheme macro would work nicely then?
08:04:41 <lament> fizzie: and how would this help with envs
08:05:50 <augur> /(.*)\(call/cc (.+)\).*/ => "(\2 (lambda (x) (\1 x)))"
08:06:03 <augur> that would literally rewrite the code
08:06:11 <fizzie> CPS conversion is a perfectly valid way to implement continuations, but I don't think I'd start doing it to Scheme before simplifying lets and such.
08:06:14 <augur> modulo unnecessary details
08:06:35 <lament> augur: call/cc doesn't rewrite the code it replaces the execution state
08:06:55 <lament> augur: do you know CPS?
08:07:09 <augur> lament: im saying hypothetically if you were implementing a transformation based approach
08:08:24 <lament> well again imagine your language was statements instead of expressions
08:08:53 <lament> then the continuation is literally 3. bar
08:09:01 <lament> so you could shove that somewhere
08:09:13 <lament> er, 3. bar followed by 4. terminate
08:09:24 <lament> so you know when to terminate
08:09:48 <lament> you can do this in scheme, with CPS.
08:10:00 <fizzie> In full CPS, your simple (* (+ 1 2) 3) would turn into something like (lambda (k) (+ 1 2 (lambda (v1) (* v1 3 (lambda (v2) (k v2))))), modulo something to deal with +/* taking a variable amount of args.
08:17:38 <augur> lament: maybe. full explicit CPS im ok with, i think
08:17:51 <augur> fizzie: also it was (+ 1 (* 2 ...)) not the other way :P
08:18:26 <lament> augur: full explicit CPS just makes continuations explicit, so there you go
08:18:35 <lament> they're the same continuations
08:18:49 <augur> lament: but im not trying to understand CPS, im trying to understand call/cc!
08:19:06 <lament> all call/cc does is call something with the current continuation
08:19:13 <lament> which is explicit with CPS and implicit otherwise
08:21:35 <fizzie> The community-scheme-wiki has two explanations of continuations; one with the usual "explain escape continuations first, then show you can jump back in, then give a coroutine-style example" and another for C programmers comparing with setjmp/longjmp: http://community.schemewiki.org/?call-with-current-continuation
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08:25:48 <fizzie> (I'm not claiming either introduction is an especially good one.)
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14:46:01 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover_> Hypothesis: all operating system ads are so obnoxious that the rage of people watching them could be used for power. Discuss. <-- I can't remember seeing an ad for an OS the last 5 years, but then I use adblock. Anyway I have no idea what they look like these days
14:46:55 <Slereah> http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Apple/1180113117597.jpg
14:49:08 <Slereah> http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Apple/1180111599456.jpg
14:49:25 <Slereah> http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Apple/pic_5580970011890947492.jpg
14:49:45 <Vorpal> <Slereah> http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Apple/1180111599456.jpg <-- not since a few years
14:50:35 <Vorpal> Slereah, the last one: is it about architectures or OSes?
14:51:18 <Vorpal> Slereah, the last one doesn't really work
14:52:15 <Vorpal> Slereah, like mac used to be RISC. PPC after all
14:52:39 <Vorpal> and most (all?) Dell's are x86 PCs. Plus iirc some x86 servers
14:52:54 <Vorpal> and um, GNU would be GNU/Hurd?
14:53:21 <Vorpal> yeah the whole thing just doesn't work
14:53:22 <Gregor> Also, SGI and Sun (Solaris I assume) and a few of the others are all UNIX.
14:53:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, I was getting to that
14:54:12 <Vorpal> I don't get the DEC one as a dinosaur...
14:54:29 <Gregor> Vorpal: But ... a DEC machine ... is a dinosaur.
14:54:35 <Slereah> Though the Amiga, I got :3
14:54:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: Are you unfamiliar with the expression "X is a dinosaur"?
14:55:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, no, but um, Amigas are also dinosaurs. So are probably the Amstrads and a few more
14:55:32 <Gregor> Yeah, but DECs are dinosaurs in that they're still around being old.
14:55:40 <Slereah> The amiga joke is that there is a furry dude who is big on Amigas.
14:55:57 <Vorpal> oh, I was wondering about that
14:56:18 <Vorpal> anyway, so what? There are probably a ton more furries using windows
14:56:34 <Slereah> Yes, but how many people are known for using amigas?
14:57:09 <Vorpal> I never heard of him before
14:57:26 <Gregor> And he said "known", not "known to Vorpal"
14:57:31 <Slereah> Well, if you're not a furry or amiga enthusiast, it is not too surprising.
14:57:39 <Slereah> He made this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mg6wrYCT9Q
14:58:03 <fizzie> He's famous enough to have a not-a-complete-stub wikipedia page, anyway -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_W._Schwartz
14:58:44 <Vorpal> <Slereah> He made this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mg6wrYCT9Q <-- wtf?
14:59:00 <Vorpal> is it a portal reference as well?
14:59:17 <Vorpal> said "aperature science" somewhere in there
14:59:26 <Slereah> Yes, because the song is from Portal
14:59:30 <Vorpal> never played portal to end
14:59:35 <Vorpal> I got bored quite quickly
14:59:48 <Slereah> The game takes like an afternoon to finish
15:00:07 <Vorpal> Slereah, well, about a bit after the last test room it got very boring
15:00:50 <Slereah> You should try to finish it.
15:01:03 <Vorpal> Slereah, not my genre. Puzzle isn't just my style
15:01:14 <Vorpal> Slereah, nor the first person perspective
15:01:39 <Vorpal> Slereah, third person RPG or non-3D RPG
15:02:02 <Vorpal> Slereah, never even heard the name.
15:02:06 <Vorpal> Slereah, I love NWN1 btw
15:02:30 <Vorpal> Slereah, I never heard of it
15:02:36 <Slereah> Torment is widely considered the best RPG :3
15:02:43 <Vorpal> ah that is a bit more info
15:02:56 <Vorpal> Slereah, maybe next holiday, if it runs on low end systems
15:03:09 <fizzie> It was released in '99.
15:03:31 <Slereah> CD version is very hard to run on modern systems
15:03:32 <Vorpal> (I'm not going to install windows)
15:03:48 <fizzie> It hasn't always been very Wine-friendly in all Torment/Wine version pairs, but it should be doable.
15:04:06 <Vorpal> well, then I might just as well skip it
15:04:11 <Slereah> Well, the DVD version runs fine on modern systems, so I guess it should run
15:04:34 <Vorpal> Slereah, my cpu is from 2006
15:04:42 <Vorpal> Slereah, or was it 2004?
15:04:51 <Vorpal> early 64-bit sempron anywayt
15:05:04 <Slereah> It is not a very demanding game
15:05:11 <Vorpal> Slereah, so why would a dvd version be better
15:05:15 <fizzie> Er, well, the official system requirements call for "200MHz CPU w/ MMX, 32MB RAM"; I really don't think that should be a problem.
15:05:17 <Slereah> It had good graphics for the era, but well, that was 99.
15:05:22 <Vorpal> and um, I don't have any money to spend on it
15:05:32 <Slereah> The CD version was made for windows 98.
15:05:47 <Slereah> It fucks up a lot on recent video cards
15:05:57 <Slereah> So they rereleased it recently as a DVD
15:06:01 <Vorpal> and what made the newer version want a DVD?
15:06:16 <Vorpal> I mean, does it take more space?
15:06:17 <Slereah> Because nowadays nobody uses CDs anymore for games
15:06:33 <Slereah> Also IIRC the original came on 2 CDs
15:07:01 <Vorpal> "It takes place in Planescape, an Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (AD&D) fantasy campaign setting. The game's engine is a modified version of the Infinity Engine, which was also used for BioWare's Baldur's Gate, a previous AD&D game set in the Forgotten Realms." <--- okay *that* looks promising
15:07:11 <fizzie> You can probably play Torment with GemRB (a portable open-source Infinity Engine replacement) some day, but not with the current beta, which only does BG1/BG2/Icewind Dale.
15:07:19 <Vorpal> hm I forgot, did NWN1 use that engine too?
15:07:34 <Vorpal> Slereah, good, but something to save for when I don't have lots of deadlines looming ahead
15:07:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh so this is isometric?
15:07:54 <ais523> apparently, the amount of text in Planescape: Torment's dialog trees is about the same amount of text as is found in one volume of the Encyclopedia Britannica
15:07:59 <Slereah> Also, if you want another good RPG : Arcanum
15:08:03 <Vorpal> Slereah, ever played any game from the avernum series?
15:08:06 <ais523> also, you can complete the entire game with only two combats
15:08:14 <Vorpal> Slereah, a mix of RPG/adventure
15:08:20 <fizzie> Torment is I think widely considered best, or at least most interesting, of the Infinity Engine games.
15:08:24 <Vorpal> Slereah, probably only well known on classic mac os
15:08:31 <Vorpal> Slereah, spiderwebsoftware
15:08:51 <Slereah> Huge gameworld isn't necessarily a good thing.
15:08:56 <fizzie> Wasn't that the continuation of Exile stuff?
15:08:59 <Vorpal> Slereah, it is for avernum
15:09:02 <Slereah> Arena was like the size of Britain
15:09:09 <Slereah> But most of it was randomly generated
15:09:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, remake and continuation
15:09:17 <Vorpal> Slereah, not much random in avernum
15:09:38 <Vorpal> avernum 2 is on the top 3 of RPG list of all time for me
15:09:49 <Vorpal> runs well in sheepshaver under OS 9
15:10:07 <Vorpal> avernum 3 sadly doesn't work in sheepshaver, works fine on real classic mac though
15:10:15 <fizzie> I played Exile.. I think it was number 2, back then; I have good memories about that, although I don't quite recall much about the game itself.
15:10:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, I found exile a bit unbalanced and exile 1 had terrible keyboard controls... the avernum series remake of 1/2/3 were a lot more balanced a better than the original exile games
15:11:18 <Vorpal> s/a better/and better/
15:11:40 <fizzie> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanescapeTorment is a nice "four paragraphs and a line" introduction to Torment.
15:11:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, and isometric is a lot nicer than a weird mix of top-down/sideways/whatever-works
15:11:58 <fizzie> Oh, sorry, I guess a tvtropes link is a bit of a netiquette violation.
15:13:14 <fizzie> I seem to recall there being some Torment references sneakily sneaked into NWN 1 or 2.
15:13:31 -!- cpressey has joined.
15:13:41 <fizzie> Or maybe the Mask of the Betrayer extension thing.
15:15:54 <fizzie> I think we have had a talk about Morrowind here before.
15:16:07 <fizzie> It wasn't something he played, if I recall correctly.
15:16:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, back for a sec, was the dvd release on one?
15:16:34 <Vorpal> Slereah, not familiar.
15:16:49 <fizzie> Morrowind is the one that came before Oblivion.
15:17:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: Which DVD release?
15:17:43 <fizzie> I would sure guess so. I don't quite recall how many CDs the CD version had, and I haven't had the DVD one ever.
15:17:52 <Slereah> Original settings, good story
15:18:08 <Slereah> I bought the DVDs a few months ago
15:18:19 <Slereah> Unlike those lousy CD versions
15:18:24 <fizzie> Morrowind was fun-ish, but it's quite different in gameplay-style from something like BG and friends.
15:18:25 <Slereah> They choked on my mighty cock
15:18:56 <Slereah> It was nice to see an RPG that wasn't medieval England.
15:19:12 <Slereah> Much like Planescape and Arcanum by the way :3
15:19:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, lets say: I'm unable to find a dvd one.
15:19:24 <oerjan> fizzie: I SEE NOTHING BAD WITH TVTROPES LINKS. ALSO, MWAHAHAHA
15:19:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, what can open it...
15:19:48 <Slereah> Vorpal : On linux, no idea
15:19:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: There was some sort of a converter; it's from the Nero tool.
15:20:03 <Slereah> Try finding a virtual DVD player
15:20:14 <fizzie> "nrg2iso" is in Ubuntu's repo, at least.
15:20:58 <fizzie> ("BIN, MDF, PDI, CDI, NRG, and B5I, -- into ISO-9660.")
15:21:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, timeout on tracker -_-
15:21:06 <cheater> oerjan: you have been marked as being away
15:21:11 <cheater> oerjan: where have you been
15:21:38 <Slereah> Invest heavily in intellectual stats.
15:22:16 <fizzie> Yeah, it's not a very hack-and-slash game.
15:22:19 <Vorpal> Slereah, I'm, um, acquiring it now, won't play it until later though
15:22:41 <fizzie> (And some of the interesting dialogue options have stats checks, as can be expected.)
15:22:46 <Vorpal> well I guess it might be if playing fighter
15:22:57 <Vorpal> not as rouge or any spell caster though
15:23:11 <Slereah> Well, you can be a fighter
15:23:13 <ais523> Vorpal: NWN is in the sense of lots of combat
15:23:17 <Slereah> Just be a philosophing fighter.
15:23:34 <Slereah> As said, you don't need to do a lot of combat, be it physical or magic
15:23:34 <ais523> just because you're fireballing things rather than stabbing them doesn't prevent it being hack-and-slash
15:23:42 <ais523> Planescape: Torment is... different
15:23:54 <Vorpal> ais523, well... with good stats in hiding related stuff you can use different tactics quite often
15:23:55 <Slereah> Well, you can play it as a hack and slash
15:24:15 <Slereah> Although there are very hack-and-slashy parts in the game.
15:24:24 <ais523> Vorpal: are you using a henchman? they normally spoil any attempt to stealth through the game
15:24:39 <ais523> although admittedly, the NWN 1 speedrun does pretty much all of chapter 1 via invisibility potions
15:25:14 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm aware, and I try to avoid henchman sometimes, though, hiding tactics doesn't work for all subquests, so often a mix of leaving henchmen for some parts and using them for other
15:25:26 <Slereah> Though it was supposed to be
15:29:40 <oerjan> <cheater> oerjan: you have been marked as being away <-- erm that's a technical term in irc, and as far as i know hasn't been true of me in a while
15:30:09 <ais523> well, technically it's just a convention that's almost universally honoured, IIRC
15:30:21 <ais523> it's not in the main IRC standard, it's in one of the supplements I think
15:30:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:32:00 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:34:23 <oerjan> cheater: in _other_ news which may be relevant to my absense, first the new nvg server that they set up to replace the one that died itself died, temporarily, on friday it may have been. it got back online sunday evening. monday afternoon the neigbors managed to dig through our phone cable (again).
15:37:41 <oerjan> ais523: well, it's an actual command
15:38:38 <fizzie> "With the AWAY message, clients can set an automatic reply string for any PRIVMSG commands directed at them (not to a channel they are on). The automatic reply is sent by the server to client sending the PRIVMSG command." (RFC1459)
15:38:40 <oerjan> and i rarely use it anyway
15:38:55 <ais523> I have auto-away set up nowadays
15:40:54 <fizzie> I have as XLock.startCmd: a Python script to tell X-Chat (via DBus) to set an away message; just to be different, you see. (In fact, I think I'll actually go away now.)
15:41:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, you think that since it would cost quite a bit for them to have it repaired, they would learn to avoid it
15:41:26 <oerjan> Vorpal: happened in the spring as well
15:42:10 <oerjan> well this time it may not have been them personally, there's been some major digging all throughout the neighborhood
15:42:30 <oerjan> but it was in approximately the same spot as last time :D
15:43:07 <oerjan> it looks like they're renovating the sewers or something
15:44:45 <oerjan> the first time it was them just moving in and replacing part of the lawn with stones
15:48:11 -!- alise has joined.
15:49:38 <alise> 01:11:05 <Phantom_Hoover> 16:47:01 <alise> which is why the Singularity is defined at precisely the point where we have no fucking idea what will happen ↠true, but you presuppose many things about it which aren't as certain as made out.
15:49:51 <alise> I may have speculated wildly while stating that I was.
15:50:00 <alise> But nothing I've said as fact is controversial at all, really.
15:50:30 <alise> 20:32:11 <Sgeo> alise, I'm forcibly undeferring you
15:50:40 <alise> i have no wish to help you further as i know you ignore my advice
15:50:52 <oerjan> ...whatever undeferring means
15:51:47 <alise> 23:34:22 <augur> sure, but i dont know what the current continuation is
15:51:55 <alise> the current continuation is the return address
15:51:58 <alise> except it's the return closure
15:52:09 <alise> (f (g x)), the call to g has the continuation (lambda (g-result) (f g-result))
15:52:33 <ais523> alise: hmm, an interesting way to define it
15:52:40 <Slereah> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJyUQ7zarS8&feature=related
15:52:46 <ais523> for some reason, I only mentally define the current continuation during a call to call/cc
15:52:50 <Slereah> Planescape made you think your spells were tits :3
15:52:51 <alise> ais523: well, it's the easiest way to explain it to someone who groks some basic return stack assembly
15:52:59 <alise> ais523: also, some of the best scheme implementations do CPS
15:53:06 <alise> so in that case it's entirely continuation-based
15:53:18 <ais523> but I'm thinking in a world where things aren't necessarily CPS
15:53:31 <alise> not Scheme's native world :)
15:54:04 <ais523> I wasn't assuming Scheme
15:54:52 <alise> i actually get kind of annoyed at people who don't get monads or continuations as i can't help but think they're the simplest things in the world :P
15:55:19 <Slereah> I understood quantum mechanics before I understood monads.
15:55:35 <alise> that just means you're a physicist, not a computer scientist
15:55:38 <ais523> the programming concept of a monad is relatively simple
15:55:39 <alise> also, you don't understand quantum mechanics
15:56:02 <ais523> you can, say, understand a useful subset of quantum electrodynamics, though
15:56:03 <Slereah> You only say that because you're a computer scientist, not a physicist.
15:56:09 <ais523> or enough quantum mechanics to know how a transistor works
15:56:21 <alise> Slereah: actually, i'm quoting a physicist from memory.
15:56:32 <Slereah> Yes, you're quoting Richard Feynman.
15:57:01 * Gregor imagines Slereah in a lab coat saying, "Yes, but /I'm/ a physicist!" then the crowd gasps in amazement.
15:57:02 <Slereah> (it's to avoid getting neutron stains on my jacket)
15:57:02 <alise> COMPUTER SCIENTISTS CAN WEAR LABCOATS
15:57:05 <alise> we're still scientists!
15:57:08 <Gregor> Damn, you labcoated before me :P
15:57:16 <Gregor> I should totally wear a lab coat.
15:57:17 <alise> we can still have test tubes
15:57:24 <alise> filled with liquid data storage
15:57:24 <Gregor> They have DATA in them!
15:57:34 <alise> Gregor: Pre-emptively, I do.
15:57:37 <Slereah> http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1361
15:57:47 <Gregor> alise: I'm not a pedophile D-8
15:58:05 <Gregor> I guess unless that's super-preemptively :P
15:58:14 <Slereah> Maybe you could build one of those old school hydrolical calculator
15:58:18 <alise> 1) It's been ephebophilia for at least three years!
15:58:21 <Slereah> The water would be full of data
15:58:25 <alise> 2) WHO SAID MARRIAGE MEANS YOU HAVE TO LIKE THE OTHER PERSON
16:00:52 <cpressey> My C implementation of Pixley is fully CPS now :)
16:01:11 <alise> My CPS implementation of C is fully Pixley now :)
16:01:14 <Slereah> He was the pedophile all along
16:03:16 <Gregor> And he would've gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids!
16:03:27 <alise> ...waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiit
16:03:49 <Slereah> http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-february-2-2010/story-hole---children-s-cartoons-from-hamas
16:04:03 <Slereah> And I would(ve gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddling jews!
16:04:32 <alise> And I would've gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddles!
16:04:38 <alise> Although meddles works too!
16:04:47 <cheater> oerjan: you have been marked as being away in my HUMAN REGISTRY which you are an element of.
16:05:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:05:09 <cpressey> alise: It's largely *because* monads and continuations are so simple that people find them hard to understand.
16:05:34 <alise> cpressey: I'm not entirely convinced you understand monads, though :P
16:05:40 <alise> Or, well, not in the conventional manner.
16:06:01 <cheater> explain them to me in 5 minutes
16:06:03 <cpressey> alise: I admit that I don't, quite.
16:06:33 <alise> 00:01:11 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure you could sort-of do a pure Scheme call/cc implementation, with some pretty hairy macros to CPS everything else, after which call/cc is just (define (call/cc f k) (f k k)), assuming f gets turned into (define (f return k) (return 2) (k 3)).
16:06:55 <alise> (define (call/cc f k) (f (lambda (x k2) (k x)) k))
16:07:04 <cpressey> I do understand continuations pretty well, though.
16:07:17 <alise> (define (f return k) (return 2 (lambda (x) (k 3))))
16:07:21 <cpressey> The y combinator, I also admit, I do not fully understand.
16:07:26 <cheater> alise/cpressey: back up your claim
16:07:33 <ais523> cpressey: I didn't understand the y combinator until about two days ago
16:07:41 <alise> cheater: unfortunately i'm sure you're not intelligent enough to understand it, unlike the towering minds we have in this channel.
16:07:44 <ais523> when suddenly something clicked with me
16:07:49 <alise> ais523: Surely you're joking, Mister Smith!
16:07:58 <ais523> alise: I'd never really tried to understand it before then
16:08:07 <cpressey> ais523: I've seen it demonstrated, so I have a "feel" for what it does, but that's about all
16:08:14 <alise> ais523: Isn't it obvious? I guess if you haven't toyed with the lambda calculus a lot.
16:08:20 <cheater> alise: also, my iq is fairly high, you just dislike me because i'm different, and the fact that i'm different makes you immediately assume that i'm also wrong
16:08:34 <ais523> but my latest problem for my job has pretty much been to see to what extent it's possible to implement Y in hardware
16:08:50 <ais523> it's clearly impossible in general, but we're trying to see if there are any useful special cases, and it looks like there are
16:09:10 <cheater> alise: which is fairly ironic coming from someone who's not understood well by the powers-that-be around them.
16:09:13 <alise> cheater: actually, I was just trying to (a) shut you up and (b) see how stupid you'd get under that insult
16:09:43 <alise> I now know that the answer to (b) is "claim that (a) your IQ was measured correctly (which is rare) and (b) implicitly claim that IQ is a measurement of intelligence".
16:09:47 <ais523> incidentally, many monads (mostly the lightweight statey ones) have a really nice implementation in hardware
16:09:52 <alise> ais523: Y in hardware? ha
16:09:58 <ais523> alise: completeness, really
16:10:11 * Phantom_Hoover understood the Y combinator after quite a bit of effort.
16:10:16 <cheater> alise: silly strategies like that don't usually work with me
16:10:21 <ais523> given that we can do more or less everything /else/
16:10:29 <alise> cheater: well, half of it worked.
16:10:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It's basically the omega combinator with an extra argument.
16:10:37 <cheater> alise: i think if you once got off your high horse and tried being friendly, you would save a lot of grief and energy
16:10:52 <cheater> alise: and then you could possibly even get something positive out of interacting with me
16:11:03 <alise> being friendly to people who i don't like takes more energy than it's worth.
16:11:04 <cheater> alise: instead of painting yourself into the corner of negative relationships
16:11:10 <ais523> in hardware, a monad is simply an extra wire/set of wires that go alongside the rest of the circuitry, and are used by individual components
16:11:11 <alise> ais523: Can you do SKI in hardware, then?
16:11:24 <cheater> alise: i don't do anything on purpose for you to dislike me
16:11:24 <ais523> alise: no, for the same reason you can't do it in Haskell
16:11:29 <ais523> at least with the formulation we're using
16:11:31 <cheater> alise: it is only your own mind block
16:11:39 <alise> ais523: SKI still type, though
16:11:41 <alise> they're just not very useful
16:11:42 <ais523> it'd require an infinite number of wires to construct the infinite type
16:11:50 <cheater> alise: you can give it up, or you can continue to have someone around that you force yourself to dislike, your choice
16:11:53 <alise> i am interested in this research!
16:11:54 <ais523> but more to the point, they type an infinite number of different ways
16:12:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you wacky boffins talking about a purely-functional computer?
16:12:15 <ais523> you need to know the exact type to konw how many wires you need
16:12:29 <alise> no, ais523 is just implementing combinators directly in silicon
16:12:41 <alise> (ais523 is an acceptable substitute for ais523 et al.)
16:12:45 <cpressey> ok, cpressey explains monads (wrong again). You write your function as a bunch of little functions and they get called, generally but not necessarily in sequence, by a bit of infrastructure which does some stuff for you, for example tracking state or aborting early.
16:12:53 <alise> cpressey: incorrect!
16:13:01 <cpressey> alise: you just love saying that.
16:13:07 <cpressey> besides, i am clearly NOT being technical
16:13:11 <Gregor> "ais523" is short for "ais" then a 523-character sequence of other names.
16:13:31 <ais523> alise: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1190216.1190269 is the first paper in the series, written by my supervisor before I started working on the project
16:13:42 <alise> a monad is a type m of one argument for which the following functions have total (always-terminating) implementations: return :: a -> m a ; bind :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b (or join :: m (m a) -> m a, instead of bind), that obey the following identities:
16:13:53 <alise> "Left identity": return a >>= f ≡ f a
16:13:53 <alise> "Right identity": m >>= return ≡ m
16:13:53 <alise> "Associativity": (m >>= f) >>= g ≡ m >>= (\x -> f x >>= g)
16:13:54 <cpressey> alise: way too technical for this audience
16:13:54 <ais523> the second's been accepted for publication but not published yet (with me as a coauthor), the third's been submitted but there's been no feedback yet (also with me as a coauthor)
16:13:55 <cheater> alise: also, to answer your other "insult", i do not feel i said anything stupid. if you feel so, your loss, you're missing the value of things given to you. i guess that's closer to stupidity than what you implied.
16:14:14 <ais523> alise: heh, that's far from the way I understand monads, despite being the actual definition
16:14:39 <alise> ais523: it becomes a lot more useful when you start doing hopelessly theoretical things with them
16:14:40 <cpressey> ais523: the actual definition tells you NOTHING that helps you understand them, is what burns me
16:14:55 <ais523> e.g. I know monads are associative, but mostly because they'd have the wrong semantics otherwise, not because being associative is part of what they are
16:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, doing the monad laws without Kleiski arrows is ugly as hell.
16:15:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not really
16:15:15 <ais523> alise: that sort of definition is useful for proofs, but proofs can be far from understanding
16:15:28 <alise> ais523: err, nothing like proofs
16:15:31 <alise> understanding the list monad
16:15:36 <alise> that's the first step
16:15:47 <alise> (you then generally need to know *why* instead of *how*, but it's the how)
16:15:48 <ais523> alise: understanding the list monad for me is /miles/ from the theoretical definition
16:15:48 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: We still need to settle a question here.
16:15:56 <alise> ais523: not understanding the use; understanding
16:16:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: nah, read-only state is the easiest nontrivial one
16:17:06 <cheater> cpressey: so why do you need those functions to be "many" and "small"?
16:17:15 <cheater> do you need to break up your functionality somehow?
16:17:15 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Do you really need a type system to have monads? If so, does it mean that, you can't have monads in (e.g.) the untyped lambda calculus? I don't believe that.
16:18:49 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the category-theoretical definition of monads doesn't depend on types existing
16:19:00 <ais523> or even any concepts from programming at all
16:19:12 <ais523> and you can fit untyped LC into a category just as easily as typed LC
16:19:40 <alise> cpressey's description is still just one possible practical usecase of monads, though
16:19:42 <alise> that isn't even tied to monads
16:19:50 <alise> and the concept of some supervising thing that calls your functions is wrong
16:19:57 <cpressey> I think my view is that if you want to prove that something is a monad, you need a type system in which to do so, just as if you want to prove something is an integer. But just to program them, well, like Church integers, if you can build it, there it is, even if you don't have a way of proving that it's that.
16:20:15 <ais523> the issue with monads is, they're too general to really be useful
16:20:30 <alise> "It's too general! Nooooooooooooooooo!"
16:20:31 <cpressey> alise: what would you call bind and return if not infrastructure?
16:20:33 <ais523> I mean, the concept of monads in general
16:20:37 <alise> "I can do things I didn't think I could do! Nooooooooooooooooo!"
16:20:39 <ais523> rather than particular monads
16:20:45 <alise> cpressey: I would call them... bind and return.
16:20:52 <alise> return and join is the more common category-theoretical definition, though.
16:20:56 <alise> cpressey: do you call addition infrastructure?
16:20:56 <cheater> cpressey: but a constructive proof is a proof too.
16:21:20 <ais523> personally, I'm annoyed at return being necessary in the definition of monads, as even without return, you still have a pratically useful concept
16:21:29 <alise> cpressey: take a look at abstract algebra
16:21:30 <ais523> is there a name for that one?
16:21:35 <alise> addition, multiplication --
16:21:37 <cpressey> alise: if i were encouraged to make it implicit, i might, like in sum()
16:21:39 <alise> they're not infrastructure
16:21:49 <alise> they're part of the definition of a number
16:21:59 <alise> algebraic structures are defined *very similarly* to a monad
16:22:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:22:13 <alise> Group: (G,*) where (G,*) is a monoid and [conditions]
16:22:15 <cheater> first you say they're not structure then you call them structure
16:22:19 <ais523> alise: there are a bunch of ways to define that sort of thing
16:22:21 <alise> Monad: (M,return,join) where [conditions]
16:22:30 <cpressey> and (the usage of) monads definitely encourages making the monad functionality implicit
16:22:38 <ais523> after all, comultiplication isn't inherent in the definition of numbers, nor even definable for them
16:22:44 <alise> this conversation is boring
16:22:48 <alise> we've had it before at least three times
16:23:42 <ais523> hmm, interesting question: can all monads be implemented in terms of multithreading plus state (regardless of how inefficient or pointless it would be to actually implement them that way)?
16:24:00 * ais523 realises in horror that C-INTERCAL actually implements continuations that way
16:24:02 <alise> i'd like to see you do the continuation monad that way
16:24:18 <alise> ais523: well, continuations != the continuation monad
16:24:26 <alise> the usual implementation of continuations, that is
16:25:03 <ais523> C-INTERCAL's implementation is nothing like the usual one
16:25:08 <ais523> partly because it's such a stateful language
16:25:10 <cpressey> OK. Well, I should probably get some work done instead of boring y'all.
16:25:12 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:25:17 <oerjan> ais523: they can be implemented in terms of continuation and state (felleisen)
16:25:28 <alise> i wish cpressey would stop taking "this conversation is boring" to mean "you, personally, are a boring person"
16:25:41 <ais523> oerjan: ah, OK, and continuations can be implemented in terms of multithreading, so they can be
16:26:11 <alise> I'm trying to figure out how to do continuations with multithreading.
16:26:14 <cheater> alise: that's what happens when you hate on people
16:26:23 <alise> What happens is, I go to my thinking bank, and it beeps, and says "TOO PAINFUL TO CONSIDER".
16:26:49 <cheater> you might be confused, i think it says "$this->ASSHOLE()"
16:27:02 <oerjan> (or rather iirc, with delimited continuations, which can be implemented using ordinary continuations and a single stateful variable)
16:27:18 <ais523> with probably pretty much the same meaning
16:27:37 <ais523> alise: to create a continuation, fork a thread, lock it in an infinite loop
16:27:39 <cheater> yeah, php is like perl with a few C extensions
16:27:48 <ais523> to go back to the continuation, let it out of the infinite loop, kill the currently executing thread
16:27:51 <alise> ais523: ah, then break it out?
16:27:57 <alise> you have to store all closed state in it, though
16:28:02 <alise> java-style final inner class problem
16:28:12 <cheater> ais523: can you explain this "extra wire" analogy that you mentioned earlier?
16:28:15 <alise> theoretically possible, though, I guess
16:28:19 <cheater> ais523: that sounded very interesting
16:28:46 <ais523> cheater: unfortunately, it doesn't model all monads, just the large subset that correspond to just the one computation at a time (as opposed to 0-or-1 like Maybe, or 0..n like List)
16:29:09 <alise> 00:05:50 <augur> /(.*)\(call/cc (.+)\).*/ => "(\2 (lambda (x) (\1 x)))"
16:29:42 <ais523> so the idea is, you have an existing function; you can see it sort-of like a computation, give it input, you get output after a bit, and you can then connect that output to some other function
16:29:54 <alise> ais523: that's a shame -- Maybe and List being some of the most useful monads :P
16:30:01 <cheater> so let's say this function is something like an addressable memory
16:30:13 <cheater> you feed it 8 bits of address and the output is 8 bits of data
16:30:42 <alise> 06:46:01 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover_> Hypothesis: all operating system ads are so obnoxious that the rage of people watching them could be used for power. Discuss. <-- I can't remember seeing an ad for an OS the last 5 years, but then I use adblock. Anyway I have no idea what they look like these days
16:30:52 <alise> Area Man Constantly Implicitly Mentions He Doesn't Own a TV
16:30:55 <ais523> OK, so let's say it's an 8-bit-address ROM or something; what the function actually is hardly matters
16:31:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal said that <--
16:31:19 <oerjan> alise: was that an onion title?
16:31:42 <alise> oerjan: "Area Man Constantly Mentioning He Doesn't Own A Television"
16:31:46 <alise> I adapted it to the situation.
16:32:09 <alise> http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-constantly-mentioning-he-doesnt-own-a-tel,429/
16:32:16 <ais523> now, you can sort of think of the function as a component in a pipeline, or something like that, UNIX-style; you can run function after function after function, each of which takes its input from somewhere (could be the output of the previous function, could be a constant, could be an output from some earlier function) and produces output
16:32:28 <ais523> in such a way that when you run each function, you have enough information to know what input you plan to give it
16:32:44 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:32:55 <ais523> now, suppose for each of these functions, you give it an extra piece of information of a given type (an extra integer or something), and it returns an extra piece of information of the same type
16:33:14 <ais523> gah, my boss has called just as it was getting interesting, I'll be back later
16:33:15 <oerjan> ais523: maybe you want Arrows rather than Monads?
16:33:41 <oerjan> although every Monad is an Arrow afair
16:33:43 <cheater> oerjan: you should be able to pick up where ais523 left off!
16:34:16 <alise> "ais523" -- people call him that in real life, you see -- "We're cancelling the 'monadia in silico' project. Instead, we're going to be doing 'Java in silico'. That will be all."
16:34:25 <alise> the worst phone call
16:35:48 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
16:41:17 <alise> "We have killed a kitten."
16:50:45 <ais523> well, let's say we modify these functions to take an extra piece of input - which they don't have to use if they don't want to - an produce an extra piece of output, of the same type
16:50:59 <ais523> the easiest way to do this is just to ignore the input, except we copy it to the output
16:51:14 <ais523> and we can connect these functions together by connecting this new output to the new input
16:51:29 <ais523> so you have a connected sideband, and everything is doing just what it was doing before otherwise
16:51:39 <cheater> sort of like 'self' in object oriented languages
16:51:52 <ais523> yep. (Hmm, I wonder if that /is/ a monad?)
16:52:00 <cheater> or global scope in many languages
16:52:27 <ais523> now, it's clear that we can mix functions that actually use the sideband, and do something with it, with these original functions that we added a sideband to just for the sake of giving them a sideband
16:52:41 <ais523> and connect them all together
16:53:03 <ais523> OK, monad terminology: adding a sideband that does nothing to a function = "return"; connecting the sideband of one function to the sideband of the next = "bind"
16:53:28 <ais523> when a monad models just one computation, that's pretty much all it is
16:53:38 <cheater> what about a function that does something with the sideband?
16:53:46 <ais523> that's a function in the monad
16:53:49 <cheater> what is that in monadsp34k?
16:53:55 <ais523> but you can't produce it using return
16:54:12 <ais523> normally, you find it lying around in a standard library or something
16:54:22 <ais523> you need to know details of how the monad's implemented in order to make one
16:54:42 <cheater> yes, just like you need to know the signaling format of the sideband
16:55:15 <ais523> then you can use that in order to make something that uses the sideband
16:55:58 <cheater> say in haskell, a monad that starts out just plugging 0 every time
16:55:58 <ais523> so for instance, the State monad is one of the simplest that fits this idea
16:56:08 <ais523> where the sideband is the state you're trying to manage
16:56:11 <cheater> but then i have a function that NOT's it
16:56:14 <ais523> if you don't care about the state at all, it just stays the same
16:56:40 <ais523> but you have functions like the one that sets the state (I've forgotten its name), which just discards the old sideband and creates a new one, from its argument
16:56:52 <ais523> and the function that gets the state, which just takes a copy of the sideband
16:56:54 <cheater> ok so what would the type be of a function that wants to modify state?
16:57:15 <ais523> setState, or whatever it's called, would have type a -> State a
16:57:52 <ais523> if you give it input of type a
16:58:09 <ais523> then you get something that outputs (), with a sideband of type a
16:58:56 <ais523> even though outputting () is normally useless in Haskell, it isn't here in the monad, because it's still modifying the sideband, and so still doing something
16:59:06 <ais523> that's why people say that monads are used to deal with side effects
16:59:21 <ais523> likewise, getting the state would have type (State a) a
16:59:35 <ais523> even without an argument, it can look at the sideband and return something of the same type
16:59:38 <cheater> why can't it model Maybe and List?
16:59:46 <ais523> you need to generalise it a bit
16:59:58 <ais523> now, so far, we've been looking at functions which model just one computation
17:00:00 <alise> <ais523> setState, or whatever it's called, would have type a -> State a
17:00:03 <ais523> we have one function, plus the sideband
17:00:29 <ais523> I seem to remember that on my last Haskell project, I had so much problems trying to remember the name that I eventually reimplemented it rather than trying to find it in the standard library
17:00:31 <alise> there's also "modify f", which is "x <- get; set (f x)"
17:00:42 <alise> ais523: wow, why not just look up Control.Monad.State?
17:00:49 <ais523> I wasn't Internet-connected at the time
17:00:54 <alise> it installs locally
17:00:58 <ais523> knowing that I had to import Control.Monad.State would have helped
17:01:21 <ais523> hmm, this is the stupid reason for NIH ever
17:01:34 <ais523> "I reimplemented the State monad because I couldn't remember its name"
17:01:42 <alise> (*stupidest, forgive me)
17:01:55 <alise> ais523: "I reimplemented GHC because I forgot its name"
17:02:02 <alise> "-- one afternoon"
17:02:07 <cheater> what's worse is: i reimplemented the state monad but i couldn't download it from the internet!
17:02:28 <ais523> cheater: so, at the moment we have each function producing just the one output+sideband
17:02:29 <cheater> ais523: so why can't Maybe work?
17:02:45 <ais523> now, there's no conceptual reason why we couldn't have the function producing 0 output+sideband pairs, or more than 1
17:02:48 <cheater> Maybe would produce either 1 output or 0 outputs yes?
17:03:03 <cheater> what does the sideband do here?
17:03:05 <ais523> what you need to do is, you need to copy everything from then on
17:03:21 <ais523> oh, Maybe doesn't have a particularly useful sideband, it just carries () everywhere
17:03:35 <ais523> but it's still necessary because you need to know what order things are in
17:03:41 <alise> ais523: IO has state
17:03:51 <ais523> alise: ah, I didn't know that
17:03:53 <alise> but it arguably shouldn't
17:03:55 <ais523> well, and RandomRIO too
17:03:59 <alise> you can't have IOT or STT
17:04:00 <ais523> but that's just an implementation detail
17:04:08 <alise> so since you often want ST-style references in IO
17:04:12 <alise> there's no real other option
17:04:17 <ais523> IOT would require inventing new IO subsystems on the fly...
17:04:23 <alise> (note: anachronism; I'm pretty sure ST postdates IORefs)
17:04:28 <alise> ais523: IOT Cont == TwoDucks
17:04:41 <alise> hmm, I think STT might be theoretically possible
17:04:42 <alise> but it hurts my brain
17:04:52 <ais523> cheater: well, suppose we run our monad function, and get two outputs, each with their own sideband
17:04:53 <cheater> so what is the equivalent of Maybe in our circuit topology here?
17:04:57 <ais523> and try to bind it to another monad function
17:05:11 <ais523> then, we need to make two copies of the second one, and connect one of them to each of the possible outputs
17:05:32 <ais523> so you sort-of need to imagine a circuit which you can dynamically make copies of runtime, as you don't know in advance how many outputs you're going to get
17:05:39 <ais523> with Maybe, you either get an output, or you don't
17:05:48 <ais523> if you don't, then you connect 0 copies of the next element in the chain
17:06:02 <cheater> if you do, you connect 1 copy?
17:06:36 <ais523> so Maybe effectively ends up halting the entire computation if you get Nothing as your output
17:07:03 <ais523> !haskell (Maybe 1) >>= (\x -> Maybe x)
17:07:05 <cheater> in fact if your chain is f g h i j
17:07:13 <cheater> and f has type x-> Maybe x
17:07:16 <ais523> then f, g, h, i, j run in sequence until one fails
17:07:25 <ais523> then the rest run 0 times each
17:07:46 <ais523> yep, and you get Nothing at the end
17:07:47 <cheater> then what you in fact want to do is to short circuit g h i j yes?
17:07:58 <ais523> and they are short-circuited in practice
17:08:06 <cheater> that can be modeled easily
17:08:15 <cheater> with exactly the side band
17:08:23 <ais523> what gets a bit conceptually hairier is when you get to List
17:08:30 <ais523> now, it's possible for f to output 0, 1, or more times
17:08:35 <cheater> since g h i j do not have side effects outside of the small world called "g h i j", you can put info in the side band that says "fail"
17:08:45 <ais523> and that's how it's implemented in practice, actually
17:08:48 <cheater> and at the very end you have a small Maybe-failure block
17:08:51 <ais523> I was wrong earlier, Maybe doesn't have a sideband of ()
17:08:57 <ais523> instead, it has a sideband of Just/Nothing
17:09:11 <ais523> with Just matching up to a normal output, Nothing matching up to no output
17:09:15 <cheater> i really like your analogy
17:09:22 <cheater> that has helped me look into monads a little bit
17:09:30 <cheater> still not far enough but that's a great explanation
17:09:33 <ais523> for List, your sideband can match up to /multiple/ outputs
17:09:42 <ais523> so, say you run f and it returns both 1 and 2
17:09:59 <cheater> so what does the list monad do blockwise
17:10:05 <cheater> it takes our computation unit
17:10:06 <ais523> it forks the chain, effectively
17:10:14 <ais523> say f returns twice, g, h, i, j each return once
17:10:26 <cheater> so g h i j need to be copied
17:10:31 <ais523> then f conncets up to /two/ sequences of g,h,i,j
17:10:42 <cheater> have the sideband contain the list index for f
17:10:43 <ais523> and thats why you can't really do List as a circuit in hardware, even though it's conceptually easy
17:10:49 <cheater> and at the end you have a demultiplexer
17:11:08 <ais523> it's easy if you know you're only going to get two outputs
17:11:18 <ais523> also, easy if you happen to own an infinite-ways demultiplexer
17:11:22 <cheater> it's easy with any amount of outputs
17:11:44 <cheater> instead of the multiplexer you can have a memory
17:11:46 <ais523> well, I think you're missing something, slightly; say f outputs [1 2], and g's input is connected to f's output
17:12:01 <ais523> then, g will have to be run with both 1 and 2 as inputs
17:12:03 <cheater> the sideband contains the address (i.e. the index), and the chan ghij ends up writing into the data lines
17:12:18 <ais523> so the sideband contains a set of addresses, really
17:12:24 <ais523> or a set of possible inputs
17:12:32 <cheater> and then h is run with output of g
17:12:55 <ais523> !haskell ([1 2]) >>= (\x -> [x+10 x+20])
17:13:07 <ais523> err, forgot the commas
17:13:11 <ais523> !haskell ([1, 2]) >>= (\x -> [x+10, x+20])
17:13:12 <cheater> the question is what does it mean that a computation block can get an arbitrary amount of inputs
17:13:40 <ais523> cheater: well, you make a copy of the block for each input, run it on that input, then combine all the outputs into one long list of outputs at the end
17:13:50 <cheater> you are right now talking about serial rather than parallel computation
17:14:07 <ais523> well, List really models parallel computation
17:14:07 <cheater> before you were describing everything as a parallel interface
17:14:20 <cheater> you can model that with serial computation
17:14:38 <cheater> let's say the left thing is the sideband and the right thing is in-band
17:14:55 <cheater> (start, 1) (continue, 5) (end, 2)
17:15:10 <cheater> !haskell ([1, 5, 2]) >>= (\x -> [x+10, x+20])
17:15:23 <ais523> hmm, that's one way to implement it
17:15:35 <ais523> yep, I think we're agreeing with each other generally here
17:15:46 <cheater> you can do those two monads in silicon now :)
17:16:00 <ais523> well, that's all monads are, really
17:16:11 <ais523> sorry that it took a bit longer than 5 minutes, but I didn't make such grandiose claims as alise did
17:16:21 <cheater> now i expect you to put my full name on the silicon so that i can make a microscopic photo of it
17:16:36 <cheater> it was a really really good explanation
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17:17:03 <cheater> i was having some sort of similar idea already, as in, only have been toying a tiny bit with haskell
17:17:04 <alise> ais523: i specialise in grandiose claims!
17:17:24 <cheater> but what i ended up figuring out is that you can't fit the IO-shaped block through the non-OI-shaped hole
17:17:36 <alise> cheater: congratulations, you invented TV
17:17:41 <ais523> it's interesting that I think of State as being the simplest monad, as opposed to Maybe which is what many other people claim
17:17:51 <ais523> probably reflects a difference in how we think
17:17:52 <alise> note: obscure reference of obscure references
17:18:00 <ais523> cheater: I was referencing what someone (alise) said eariler
17:18:03 <alise> ais523: Identity is the simplest monad
17:18:10 <ais523> err, simplest nontrivial
17:18:12 <alise> return x = x; join x = x
17:18:14 <cheater> ais523: i was confused about alise
17:18:22 <alise> or return x = x; bind x f = f x
17:18:27 <alise> with Haskell you need data Identity = Identity a
17:18:29 <alise> but it's the same thing
17:18:44 <ais523> clearly, if you're not going to actually use the sideband, why bother having a monad in the first place?
17:18:49 <cheater> ais523: ok, that's pretty cool
17:18:56 <cheater> ais523: that was a great explanation
17:19:00 <cheater> is there a log of this somewhere?
17:19:05 <ais523> yep, it's in the topic
17:19:55 <ais523> alise: http://codu.org/projects/trac/egobot/browser/multibot_cmds/interps/c-intercal/pit/continuation.i?rev=42%3A3e7fe826dddf if you want to see the implementation of continuations in terms of threading, btw
17:19:58 <ais523> you were asking earlier
17:20:22 <cheater> ais523: i thought of haskell's monads as the "block shape"
17:20:50 <cheater> just like in OO languages you'll have 100000000000 extensions of Exception
17:20:59 <cheater> and each is just an empty class
17:21:07 <ais523> yep, that's a good analogy too
17:21:09 <cheater> i think the same way monads work in haskell don't they?
17:21:25 <ais523> well, everything works like that in Haskell, including monads
17:21:38 <alise> ais523: I was the first one to see it :P
17:21:41 <Vorpal> <alise> Area Man Constantly Implicitly Mentions He Doesn't Own a TV <-- um I do own one
17:21:43 <alise> Although I got straight to work on forgetting it.
17:21:47 <alise> Vorpal: Onion reference.
17:22:04 <alise> cheater: monads aren't usually empty...
17:22:06 <ais523> I have access to TVs, but I think all of them are technically owned by someone else
17:22:12 <Vorpal> alise, but we have public service... which doesn't show ads. And the channels with ads are mostly crap sitcoms
17:22:16 <alise> ais523: but you don't not-own-a-TV as an active thing like dear old Area Man
17:22:21 <cheater> ais523: so, are you actually implementing this stuff in silicon?
17:22:38 <ais523> cheater: not in general; some special cases, perhaps
17:22:44 <ais523> there was something of a flame war in a seminar
17:22:50 <alise> cheater: because you have to define return/bind
17:22:52 <cheater> ais523: what did they say?
17:23:00 <ais523> when my supervisor invented the "clock monad", and we had a row about whether it was technically a read only state monad or not
17:23:05 <Vorpal> <ais523> I have access to TVs, but I think all of them are technically owned by someone else <cheater> ais523: so, are you actually implementing this stuff in silicon? <-- at first this looked hilarious
17:23:08 <cheater> alise: but you can define it "trivially" can't you?
17:23:17 <alise> for instance, the list monad
17:23:17 <ais523> (they were using the monad sidebands to carry clock signals, which makes sense)
17:23:18 <alise> <alise> @src [] return
17:23:18 <alise> <lambdabot> return x = [x]
17:23:18 <alise> <alise> @src [] (>>=)
17:23:18 <alise> <lambdabot> xs >>= f = concatMap f xs
17:23:22 <alise> this is what defines the actual monad, it's important
17:23:29 <alise> unlike the irrelevant contents of an exception glass
17:23:44 <alise> return and bind are what make do notation work, they're what make the fancy operators work
17:23:44 <cheater> alise: but can't you define a monad which doesn't do anything?
17:23:46 <alise> they are the monad
17:23:52 <alise> cheater: yes, but only on one type (Identity)
17:23:54 <ais523> cheater: you can, he did above
17:23:56 <alise> and it's literally useless
17:24:00 <alise> as opposed to something you'd actually do
17:24:09 <ais523> alise: you can define an infinite number of identity monads
17:24:12 <ais523> which don't connect to each other
17:24:16 <ais523> doesn't make them any less useless, though
17:24:29 <alise> ais523: well, not from a mathematical point of view
17:24:39 <ais523> alise: agreed; but yes from a programming point of view
17:24:40 <alise> there's only one identity type, naturally,
17:24:48 <alise> and only one implementation of return/bind for it
17:25:02 <ais523> just like you can have HTMLStrings and SQLStrings and UnescapedStrings which are all really just strings, but you don't want to mix
17:25:18 <alise> ais523: i'm not sure; there's a push in quite a few language communities to make structurally identical types equal in some manner
17:25:27 <ais523> alise: I don't think I like that
17:25:30 <ais523> I mean, it makes sense in theory
17:25:37 <alise> ais523: it makes sense for a more mathematically-oriented language
17:25:39 <ais523> but in practice, you often want to model things in types that the type system just doesn't handle
17:25:43 <alise> where things like "constructors" aren't actually assumed to exist
17:25:54 <alise> ais523: it's also usually done in communities that favour rather... advanced type systems
17:26:05 <alise> also: ok, separation of identity monads for security; I know now what the craziest thing ever is
17:26:06 <ais523> yep, that would make sense
17:26:22 <ais523> alise: tricycling along a tightrope? that's pretty crazy
17:26:39 <alise> ais523: tricycling along a tightrope while writing code that separates identity monads for security
17:27:01 <alise> ais523: wait, *tri*cycling?
17:27:24 <ais523> if you try to put more than one of the wheels on the rope, going in the right direction, the thing is completely unbalanced
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17:29:19 <alise> ais523: or just scrape the back end awkwardly
17:29:20 <cheater> unless you put the rear axle on the rope
17:29:27 <cheater> in which case the back wheels work to stabilize you
17:29:30 <alise> while riding the most badly-weighted unicycle ever made
17:29:37 <cheater> which means the act becomes trivial. just have leaden wheels.
17:30:03 <ais523> cheater: but then, the front wheel would have no actual grip on the rope
17:30:05 <alise> pentacycle; discuss
17:30:11 <ais523> so you wouldn't be able to move
17:30:23 <ais523> hmm, well a bit, I suppose
17:30:29 <ais523> but the centre of gravity would be a long way back
17:30:29 <cheater> ais523: it would have the exact same grip
17:30:38 <cheater> ais523: except, the axle would also have grip, which would be blocking
17:30:51 <cheater> but you make the housing of the axle out of teflon and smear it with butter
17:31:04 <cheater> and you're suddenly copperfield
17:32:51 <alise> teflon cycle; I approve
17:32:59 <ais523> wow, I just noticed how hacky (8205) is
17:34:03 <alise> "It seemed idiomatic when I wrote it!"
17:34:07 <alise> Idiomatic INTERCAL.
17:34:17 <alise> I propose it be called idiotic in INTERCAL circles instead.
17:34:25 <alise> "Wow, your code is really idiotic for a beginner! Good job!"
17:34:27 <ais523> alise: well, there's idiotism.oil
17:34:42 <ais523> which is a filename based on that sort of pun
17:34:54 <ais523> really, anything that remotely works is considered idiomatic
17:39:28 <cheater> Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD]
17:40:06 <ais523> cheater: a line number in the INTERCAL program I linked above
17:40:22 <ais523> generally, numbers in <s>parens</s> wax/wane pairs indicates line numbers in INTERCAL programs
17:42:04 <cheater> you know i have INTERCAL on my CV
17:42:42 <cheater> it is listed as one of my professional skills
17:42:50 <cheater> also i have a list of skills on the back of my visit card
17:42:55 <alise> do you actually know INTERCAL?
17:42:57 <cheater> and the last one is "Munctional"
17:43:04 <ais523> and if someone decided to actually give you a test of your INTERCAL knowledge, could you pass it?
17:43:08 <alise> that's definitely not the same thing
17:43:17 <alise> presumably INTERCAL-72
17:43:23 <cheater> the one with the select operator
17:43:36 <alise> which, even if you were the most amazing interpreter ever, doesn't even come close to explaining anything :D
17:43:47 <ais523> that's a really pointless characterisation, given that both the manuals explain about the select operator
17:43:52 <ais523> given that it is, you know, fundamental to INTERCAL
17:43:52 <impomatic> I should list Redcode on my CV :-)
17:44:05 <cheater> yes but the original one has a nice drawing
17:44:09 <ais523> hmm, I'm vaguely confused
17:44:16 <ais523> as I remember writing Redcode, but I can't remember the context
17:44:25 <ais523> or if I ever ran it, or did anything other than interpreting it in my head
17:44:27 <alise> It couldn't possibly be Core Wars? :-P
17:44:35 <cheater> i should put unrealscript on my cv
17:44:45 <ais523> alise: it wasn't a core wars entry, I don't think
17:44:51 <alise> i should put underload on my cv (despite not being a good underload programmer, but I'm better at it at brainfuck)
17:44:54 <ais523> it may have been related in some other way
17:45:07 <alise> come to think of it, Brainfuck may be my favourite satire on current computer design
17:45:25 <alise> cheater: nonsense, i only use prime numbers of exclamation marks
17:45:38 <alise> (note: not even *vaguely* accurate)
17:45:45 <alise> ais523: yes!! as is 2!!
17:46:02 <ais523> 2! is the only prime factorial
17:46:35 <cheater> alise: 10 has the interesting property that it is a sum of prime numbers.
17:47:04 <ais523> cheater: are you aware of the Goldbach conjecture?
17:47:08 <alise> (note: none of this is even vaguely true)
17:47:14 <alise> (except for the parts that are)
17:47:25 <impomatic> I used Goldbach's conjecture for something the other day!
17:47:36 <ais523> how do you use a conjecture for something?
17:47:44 <alise> fun fact: 4 is the first number greater than two that is not a Goldbach conjecture
17:47:54 <alise> ais523: writing an algorithm that always returns correct results iff the conjecture is true, presumably
17:47:56 <cheater> ais523: to make a conditional theorem
17:48:00 <alise> and may not halt if it isn't true
17:48:14 <alise> like a lot of CASes do
17:48:20 <impomatic> Goldbach's is tested up to a certain value and the problem I had was below that bound
17:48:38 * ais523 vaguely remembers a theorem that was proved both if the Riemann hypothesis was true, and if it was false, in completely different ways
17:48:43 <ais523> I suppose that's a different way to use a conjecture
17:49:05 <alise> ais523: [PAH EXCLUDED MIDDLE etc.; someone has to be the malcontent]
17:49:19 <alise> although Riemann is quite obviously either true or false
17:49:33 <alise> unless ZFC is even crazier than i realise
17:49:35 <ais523> alise: invoking the law of the excluded middle is normally considered an acceptable thing to do in proofs of theorems
17:49:48 <cheater> what if riemann is undecidable
17:49:51 <alise> ais523: not if you're an intuitionist :P
17:49:52 <cheater> is the theorem proven then?
17:49:57 <ais523> cheater: it can't be proved undecidable
17:50:04 <ais523> because doing so would be a proof that there were no counterexamples
17:50:05 <alise> cheater: if riemann is true, there exists a real x such that etc. if it is false, no such real exists
17:50:07 <alise> it cannot be independent
17:50:15 <ais523> and thus contradict the original proof that it was undecidable
17:50:16 <alise> consider ZFC+Riemann and ZFC~Riemann
17:50:22 <alise> the zeta function is the same in both
17:50:26 <alise> but this "x" exists in the former
17:50:29 <alise> consider zeta(x) in the latter
17:50:31 <ais523> I think it might theoretically be possible for it to be undecidable, but unprovably so
17:50:39 <alise> swap former/latter
17:50:42 <alise> anyway, yeah, it must be 0 in the other
17:50:48 <alise> but we've said it's not; that system is contradictory
17:50:57 <alise> ais523: hmm, agreed
17:51:07 <alise> although don't you mean independent?
17:51:19 <alise> there are no "undecidable theorems"
17:51:25 <ais523> in case you haven't gathered by now, I tend to be incredibly bad at technical terminology
17:51:47 <alise> independent theorem = neither x or ~x is provable in the axiom system; adding either x or ~x to the axiom system produces a system consistent iff the system without it is
17:51:51 <alise> for instance, ZF and Choice
17:52:00 <alise> Choice is not provable in ZF, ZFC is consistent, ZF~C is consistent
17:52:09 <alise> cheater: by what definition?
17:52:20 <cheater> alise: goedel's incompleteness theorem
17:52:39 <ais523> isn't that theorem just true?
17:52:50 <cheater> i mean the theorem as the definition
17:53:10 <cheater> "undecidable" is one of the accepted outcomes of field's if i recall correctly
17:53:36 <cheater> as in, you can prove something's undecidable, and you get a medal
17:53:38 <ais523> alise: that is one of the most pointless IRC corrections I've ever seen
17:53:52 <alise> you could prove that it is impossible to prove either X or ~X in ZFC, where X = (it is impossible to prove either Riemann or ~Riemann in ZFC)
17:53:56 <cheater> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decidability_(logic)
17:53:56 <alise> but that would just be *ridiculous*
17:54:08 <alise> and probably cause me to commit suicide as a protest against how illogical logic is
17:54:22 <ais523> alise: don't, just leave the field altogether if that happens
17:54:25 <cheater> Indeed, the proof that a logical system or theory is undecidable will use the formal definition of computability to show that an appropriate set is not a decidable set, and then invoke Church's thesis to show that the theory or logical system is not decidable by any effective method
17:54:26 <ais523> become a bricklayer or something
17:54:26 <alise> (note: not true; stop worrying ais523)
17:54:38 <alise> i'm not exactly in the field of logic :P
17:55:11 <cheater> are you in that case alogical?
17:55:50 <ais523> oh, I know I'm illogical
17:55:54 <cheater> The first-order theory of the natural numbers with addition, multiplication, and equality, established by Tarski and Andrzej Mostowski in 1949.
17:56:01 <ais523> but it's more a comforting thought
17:56:01 <cheater> i have some books by mostowski and tarski
17:56:07 <alise> a logical alogical: quite illogical
17:56:08 <ais523> being completely logical would be an awful burden on anyone
17:56:10 <cheater> in a damp cellar somewhere
17:56:32 <alise> ais523: probably impossible for a human
17:56:34 <alise> due to reflex actions
17:56:47 <ais523> can reflex actions be considered illogical, though?
17:56:50 <ais523> you don't decide to perform them
17:57:01 <alise> yes, if you're in a situation where performing the reflex action isn't the most logical action
17:57:07 <alise> performing it would constitute an illogical action
17:57:20 <alise> and being absolutely logical is best defined as "performing the logical action in any situation, no matter what it is"
17:57:34 <cheater> The first-order theory of groups, established by Mal'cev in 1961. Mal'cev also established that the theory of semigroups and the theory of rings are undecidable. Robinson established in 1949 that the theory of fields is undecidable.
17:57:41 <cheater> all the usefull stuff sucks.
17:57:43 -!- impomatic has left (?).
17:58:00 <cheater> might as well kill myself now
17:58:03 <alise> mathematics has basically become an endeavour in rigorously laughing at the idea of mathematics :)
17:59:14 <ais523> alise: I mean, though, failing to perform an action you're physically incapable of performing isn't illogical, no matter how logical it would be to perform the action otherwise
17:59:24 <ais523> so why is performing an action you're physically incapable of not performing?
17:59:34 <alise> ais523: well, you certainly aren't a logical agent
17:59:43 <alise> imagine an agent that universally does stupid things and nothing else
17:59:47 <alise> but inside is a perfectly rational mind
17:59:54 <alise> it's just that the connections to the outside invert any decision it makes
17:59:58 <alise> is it really a rational agent?
18:00:05 <alise> i'd say that's a ridiculous definition
18:00:23 <ais523> surely it would figure that out after a while, and invert its own outputs?
18:00:37 <alise> ais523: no, because the inputs are also reversed
18:00:47 <cheater> but a rational agent would be able to rationally tell in which cases they would be unable to act upon the situation by failing to perform actions
18:00:52 <alise> it sees itself being wonderful and logical and great while it, i don't know, repeatedly hits its head against a brick wall
18:00:56 <ais523> inverse outputs don't always cause inverse effects on the environment
18:00:56 <cheater> therefore removing those actions from the pool of considered actions
18:01:02 <cheater> and performing the next best possible action
18:01:10 <alise> ais523: well, ok, fixed output
18:01:15 <alise> (do something stupid, pick one)
18:01:18 <ais523> that's a better example
18:01:21 <cheater> for example: it is impossible for me to explode into a gamma burst therefore killing the whole planet
18:01:28 <cheater> even though it would be the most logical action
18:01:36 <ais523> why is that a logical action?
18:01:38 <alise> for some definition of logical.
18:01:48 <alise> ais523: well, it is, under the "I hate Earth" system of morals and ethics
18:02:07 <alise> if anyone powerful actually had that system, I'd recommend killing them :P
18:02:13 <ais523> somewhere on TVTropes there's a ranking of how thorough apocalypses are
18:02:14 <alise> (powerful = more than a human.)
18:02:23 <cheater> but following that example, the next logical action could end up being "move into hut and build bombs to send to people"
18:02:25 <alise> (although POTUS is probably a bad one to go by that system, too.)
18:02:44 <ais523> from local devastation, all the way up to the complete and irreversible eradication of all of reality
18:02:45 <alise> ais523: I thought the one at the end of H2G2 was pretty good, but they managed to stuff that up by releasing a sequel not written by Douglas Adams.
18:02:50 <alise> ais523: You've read H2G2, right?
18:02:58 <ais523> cheater: it's TVTropes, linking to it is pretty evil
18:03:01 <ais523> alise: the first four books
18:03:17 <alise> ais523: ah. i won't spoil the fifth for you, then.
18:03:30 <ais523> cheater: more to the point, I'm at work and so won't visit the site to get the URL
18:03:38 <ais523> but I think the page name is "ApocalypseHow", use its search engine
18:03:47 <alise> ais523: How did you not finish reading the series?
18:03:58 <ais523> because my parents own an anthology book of the first four
18:04:04 <ais523> presumably bought before the fifth was written
18:04:16 <alise> the fifth brings it all together wonderfully
18:04:18 <ais523> strangely, I've read other stuff by Douglas Adams and don't really like it
18:04:24 <ais523> H2G2 is good, the rest, not so much
18:04:31 <alise> ais523: what did you read?
18:04:37 <alise> Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency is very good.
18:04:51 <ais523> oh, I read The Meaning Of Liff, but that one actually is pretty clever, if rather shallow
18:06:15 <alise> the fifth book basically ties together the entire series and then puts a big lock on it so nobody can ever make it work again
18:06:32 <alise> (which was then promptly broken in only 17 years)
18:08:10 <cheater> Class Z: Total Irreversible Destruction Of All Of Reality - THE DESTRUCTION OF REALITY ITSELF! The theoretical ultimate goal of the Omnicidal Maniac.
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18:54:49 <Vorpal> <alise> the fifth book basically ties together the entire series and then puts a big lock on it so nobody can ever make it work again <-- which series?
18:55:17 <Vorpal> I haven't read the new book
18:55:39 <alise> 5 is Mostly Harmless
18:55:55 <Vorpal> alise, you misunderstood me
18:56:03 <Vorpal> I was commented on the book that broke the lock
18:56:10 <Vorpal> when I said I hadn't read the new one
18:56:18 <Vorpal> alise, I know 5 is mostly harmless
18:56:52 <alise> i meant breaking the lock in a bad sense
18:57:07 <Vorpal> alise, indeed, I heard as much
18:57:51 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, you could write side stories, like Adams did himself. Thinking of that short one about Zaphod.
18:57:53 <cheater> alise: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/263554/
18:58:03 <Vorpal> alise, which is iirc set before the first book
18:58:17 <Vorpal> well, "before" is a bit tricky in any series that has time travel
18:58:23 <Vorpal> in a non-paradoxical way
18:59:03 <Vorpal> or rather, it points out some of the paradoxes, and them promptly ignores them
19:01:25 <Vorpal> cheater, wait a second, the same file is mentioned several times after each other? Also "included from"?
19:01:43 <Vorpal> cheater, isn't java's importing stuff more like that of, say, python?
19:02:34 <augur> alise: thanks for trying x3
19:03:46 <alise> augur: oh right that
19:05:42 <augur> alise: i think i understand the issue, i just needed to see how it played out in an actual program
19:05:49 <augur> i learn be seeing evaluations and stuff
19:15:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, or Slereah: there?
19:16:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, Slereah do you think planescape would work in winxp in virtualbox?
19:16:08 <Vorpal> http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=294 doesn't look too reassuring
19:16:23 <Vorpal> oh wait, different versions hm
19:26:25 <fizzie> I seem to recall I've succesfully played with wine.
19:27:34 <Slereah> Nigga I don't know shit about Linux
19:28:10 <quintopia> i should see if the world of goo demo runs in wine
19:29:10 -!- sftp has joined.
19:29:21 <alise> Vorpal: if Slereah is right, then i'd run win98 with the original version put on one hard drive
19:29:35 <alise> failing that, xp with the dvd version
19:30:13 <Slereah> As I said, I think the problem with the CD version is mostly modern video cards
19:30:26 <Vorpal> alise, I have not been able to find the dvd version
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19:30:48 <alise> Vorpal: then run win98
19:30:53 <alise> no need to run all of xp if you don't have to, right?
19:31:08 <Vorpal> alise, I have xp x64 in a vm already
19:31:10 <alise> and finding a win98 cd is super easy on torrents
19:31:15 <alise> Vorpal: well it's unlikely to work with 64-bit...
19:31:20 <Vorpal> alise, and I can get win98 legally :P
19:31:31 <alise> XP x64 has pretty bad compatibility with things like games
19:31:34 <alise> and it'll be a lot heavier
19:31:48 <alise> plus as Slereah says the old version probably wouldn't even run on 32-bit XP
19:31:58 <Vorpal> alise, that means playing it on my laptop though, desktop lacks hw virtualisation
19:32:20 <Vorpal> alise, because it has hw virtualisation
19:32:23 <alise> you said you had it in a vm
19:32:30 <alise> you'd be doing that anyway
19:32:33 <Vorpal> alise, yes... and xp is in the vm on the laptop
19:32:39 <Vorpal> alise, I meant "as opposed to wine"
19:32:39 <alise> software virtualisation is fast
19:32:49 <alise> virtualbox for 32-bit windows was faster than hardware virtualisation
19:32:51 <alise> at least for a time
19:32:58 <alise> virtualbox running 32-bit windows
19:33:10 <alise> so i'd just use put win98 in virtualbox on the desktop
19:33:17 <Vorpal> hm disk space on laptop
19:33:28 <Vorpal> how much does it take?
19:33:42 <Vorpal> I found those numbers already
19:34:29 <alise> Vorpal: 200 mb installed or so
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19:36:52 <Vorpal> alise, oh hm I have MS DOS 6.2 and MS-DOS 6.0, and Windows 3.1 for worksgroup, and all the modern ones from XP and onwards. Just not 9x
19:37:45 <Vorpal> alise, oh well, trying in wine first... then we will see
19:37:53 <alise> i like windows 95 :)
19:38:27 <quintopia> win95 was easily the best OS of its time
19:38:50 <quintopia> how did MS sink so low as to then produce WinME
19:38:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, nah, I would say contemporary *nix beat it. Sun OS and such
19:39:15 <alise> spoken like someone who's never used Sun OS
19:39:27 <Vorpal> alise, I have used solaris, sure not quite the same
19:39:30 <alise> (or read an old usenet FAQ that was 90% workarounds for SunOS' stupidity)
19:39:58 <Vorpal> alise, anyway BSD4.3 would have been around back then iirc?
19:40:07 <Vorpal> if not even later versions
19:40:17 <Vorpal> linux was not really usable yet back then
19:41:12 <quintopia> the thing about Win95 that made it so great was how much frickin effort they put into making every little thing they could think of compatible with it
19:41:24 <alise> Vorpal: buying anything other than an x86 box was an expensive proposition...
19:41:25 <quintopia> it wasn't like "here's the OS make software for it"
19:41:34 <alise> quintopia: also, it was the last version to ship with a usable Explorer
19:41:39 <quintopia> it was more "alright, here's the software we want to continue to support, here's the OS for it"
19:42:44 <Vorpal> alise, I was just arguing against "<quintopia> win95 was easily the best OS of its time"
19:42:45 <alise> Vorpal: 386BSD... maaybe
19:42:47 <alise> i don't think they had X
19:42:50 <alise> if they did it was a pain
19:42:58 <alise> but still, very slapdash
19:43:20 <Vorpal> alise, hey people still use twm. Like the teacher in the programming course. twm without the green colours
19:43:23 <alise> Free/NetBSD were around then
19:43:41 <Vorpal> when I asked he said something, "it worked in 1995, it still does"
19:43:42 <alise> but anyway, windows 95 had actually useful applications and games.
19:44:01 <alise> anyway it wasn't more crashy than classic mac os
19:44:03 <Vorpal> alise, games certainly
19:44:05 <alise> it wasn't a buggy OS
19:44:10 <alise> it just let every program do what the fuck it wanted
19:44:13 <Vorpal> alise, not sure about programs. Depends on what you were doing I guess
19:44:16 <alise> like the Amiga, classic Mac OS, etc.
19:44:34 <Vorpal> alise, SunOS did *not* let every program do what they wanted
19:45:13 <Vorpal> alise, hm was NT 4 around back then?
19:48:22 <alise> and besides, it didn't have DirectX
19:49:44 <alise> Vorpal: actually, planescape: torment may work on win95.
19:49:56 <alise> win95 lacks IE explorer.exe, so i heartily recommend it. also, it installs smaller.
19:51:14 <Vorpal> alise, installing in wine, lets see if this works well or not
19:51:50 <Vorpal> alise, less work than the alternative if it works
19:52:02 <Vorpal> and it is supposed to work for some versions, no report for wine 1.3.x
19:52:06 <Vorpal> which seems to be what I have
19:53:30 <Vorpal> alise, http://sprunge.us/TDMA
19:53:50 <alise> I want a bunch old machiiiiines
19:55:59 <alise> have a whole room of them
19:56:07 <alise> "Over here, this is the Plan 9 cluster..."
19:56:15 <alise> "...the Windows 95 beowulf..."
19:56:37 <alise> "...here's my complete collection of all Symbolics Lisp Machine models..."
19:56:55 <Vorpal> windows95 beowulf? I doubt it
19:57:13 <Vorpal> well it doesn't work well in wine I can say. Oh well
19:57:28 <alise> "Windows XP Embedded, commonly abbreviated "XPe", is a componentized version of the Professional edition of Windows XP. An original equipment manufacturer is free to choose only the components needed thereby reducing operating system footprint and also reducing attack area as compared with XP Professional. Unlike Windows CE, Microsoft's operating system for portable devices and consumer electronics, XP Embedded provides the full Windows API, and support for
19:57:28 <alise> the full range of applications and device drivers written for Microsoft Windows. The system requirements state that XPe can run on devices with at least 32MB Compact Flash, 32MB RAM and a P-200 microprocessor. XPe was released on November 28, 2001. As of October 2008, the newest release is Windows XP Embedded Service Pack 3."
19:57:38 <alise> Looks like MiniXP has found a way to become even smaller.
19:58:14 <Vorpal> was worth a try anyway
19:58:29 <alise> "XPe adds a USB boot option to Windows. An XPe embedded device can be configured to boot from a USB drive."
20:03:23 <Vorpal> alise, did the 0000-0000 and so one work in 98?
20:03:50 <alise> Vorpal: the what? key?
20:03:58 <alise> there were no keys, dude
20:04:10 <Vorpal> then it was 98 that it worked with
20:04:20 <Vorpal> I have an OEM 98 key somewhere
20:04:30 <Vorpal> wonder if that will work
20:04:59 <alise> 95! 95! woo hoo hoo!
20:05:04 <alise> 95! 95! woo hoo hoo!
20:05:42 -!- augur has joined.
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20:07:43 <alise> ais523: here, chant for 95 with me!
20:08:25 <alise> the chant is: 95! 95! woo hoo hoo!
20:08:44 <ais523> it was good for its time, so long as you didn't let it into contact with the outside world
20:09:12 <alise> it's not any less safe than classic mac os :P
20:10:15 <Vorpal> interesting how virtualbox tries to guess the type of OS from the name you are about to give the VM
20:11:59 <ais523> 1995 was before the Internet really took off, wasn't it?
20:12:11 <ais523> as in, it was around, and people were aware of it, but didn't really see how it applied to them
20:12:50 <Vorpal> ais523, 1995 or maybe 1996 was when my dad got internet
20:13:08 <alise> I was /born/ in 1995.
20:13:14 <alise> Late 1995, at that.
20:13:32 <Vorpal> alise, yeah you are too young to remember how it was before internet I expect
20:13:50 <Vorpal> when if you didn't know something you went to check the encyclopedia
20:13:53 <Vorpal> and that was one in paper
20:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I had no internet access at all during my formative years!
20:14:06 <Vorpal> and if you didn't find it there: tough shit
20:14:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I hardly had internet access as such, I mean, it was expensive "pay per connected minutes"
20:14:39 <alise> by the time i was looking things up i had the internet yeah
20:14:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I watched dad use it to send mail for work stuff sometimes
20:14:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I remember macpaint, on the old classic
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20:25:25 <Vorpal> alise, not 95 btw, for the simple reason of no ACPI -> idle loop is a busy loop
20:25:47 <Vorpal> windows98 can do it as HLT with some trickery
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20:27:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ... google?
20:27:30 <Vorpal> I can't be arsed to explain something I know have a good wikipedia page
20:32:26 <augur> ive attempted to increase my britishness by eating a ploughmans lunch.
20:39:18 <ais523_> wouldn't fit within my diet
20:39:33 <augur> mine is as emulative of the one on the wikis
20:39:48 <augur> that is, cheese, onion, and buttered bread
20:41:10 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, I conclude that you have made yourself less British with respect to this channel by eating a ploughman's lunch.
20:41:27 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: well this channel isnt very british, so that can only be a good thing
20:42:03 <Phantom_Hoover> By "with respect to this channel" I mean "with respect to the channel's British regulars".
20:42:20 <augur> theyre not very british either
20:42:29 <alise> i am deeply offended
20:42:40 <augur> well, alise is. alise is the epitome of britain, in that he's a tiny version of david deutsch
20:42:47 <augur> and david deutsch is especially british
20:42:51 <augur> especially english, even
20:43:32 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, I strongly suspect you to be conflating "British" with "upper-class English".
20:43:56 <augur> im not, im just being liberal in my use of the word british :D
20:44:50 <augur> an israeli citizen maybe
20:45:04 <augur> http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/deutsch/deutsch_index.html
20:45:08 <augur> but look at that man
20:45:13 <augur> how much more english can you get
20:46:18 <Phantom_Hoover> That page does not have a single mention of the word "tea".
20:46:31 <augur> its an Edge.org page
20:46:40 <augur> deutsch's books are nothing but tea
20:47:23 <Phantom_Hoover> "Quantum computers could theoretically be used to create the perfect cup of tea."
20:47:57 <augur> well we know what happens when an englishman tries to use quantum magic to get tea
20:49:07 <Phantom_Hoover> When you try to pour tea into it, you get scalded and not scolded.
20:56:54 <Vorpal> alise, I'm selecting to install microsoft chat. Just for the laughs
20:57:33 <alise> Vorpal: It works for Jerkcity.
20:57:45 <alise> http://www.jerkcity.com/
20:57:46 <alise> The only webcomic.
20:58:00 <alise> Jerkcity is a webcomic published almost daily since 17 August 1998. It follows the adventures of its four main characters — Pants, Rands, Deuce, and Spigot — and their nonsensical adventures within the Jerkcity universe. The strip's backgrounds and the appearance of its characters are generated with the long-defunct application Microsoft Comic Chat, which features the artwork of Jim Woodring. The spirit of the strip is summed up in its official motto, "
20:58:00 <alise> Slurping and drooling and hurrrr."[1].
20:58:20 <alise> Basically they say "cocks" on IRC and then it gets posted as a comic.
20:58:36 <alise> The guy who invented it is also http://randsinrepose.com/, which is rather more intellectual.
20:58:41 <alise> Well, "invented"; started.
20:59:39 <alise> "The primary themes of Jerkcity include [list of sins]; also, cocks[35]." -- Wikipedia; reference 35 is http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity4184.html.
21:00:19 <ais523_> someone actually came in IRC using that program, IIRC
21:00:30 <ais523_> every line they said had a bunch of random characters in square brackets at the start of it
21:00:53 <alise> " character could express a specified emotion, possibly making IRC chatting a more emotive and expressive experience"
21:01:06 <alise> Although Comic Chat could be used in text-based chat rooms as well, it added a code at the beginning of every message to communicate the character's expression to other chat clients. This had a somewhat annoying effect on non-Comic Chat users (although it could be disabled).
21:01:08 <Vorpal> alise, I wonder if win98 will now *overestimate* the tiem for once
21:01:16 <Vorpal> it jumped from 40 minutes to 28
21:01:20 <alise> Microsoft Comic Chat installed a custom font, Microsoft Comic Sans, that users could use in other applications and documents.
21:01:25 <Vorpal> I remember it used to underestimate it
21:01:29 <alise> THE ORIGIN OF THE EVIL
21:01:32 <ais523_> alise: did you not know that it was that that invented Microsoft Comic Sans?
21:01:33 <alise> Well, Bob is the origin.
21:01:33 <Vorpal> alise, didn't you know it came from there?
21:01:35 <alise> But this is the spreader.
21:01:42 <alise> Vincent Connare designed it for Bob
21:01:50 <alise> it was designed too late for Bob
21:01:59 <alise> he gave them it anyway
21:02:02 <ais523_> ah, you know about what happened before it was released
21:02:10 <ais523_> I should look up what Microsoft Bob was some time
21:02:24 <Vorpal> you mean you don't know?
21:02:40 <alise> I hereby present the canonical comic about Comic Sans.
21:02:41 <alise> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=07052007
21:02:42 <ais523_> although apparently it's pretty horrific
21:02:55 <ais523_> what little I've heard of it almost makes me not want to know
21:02:59 <alise> ("WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'RE RUNNING FROM?! THE DISEASE IS INSIDE OF YOU!")
21:03:42 <alise> "Comic Sans 2010 continues to take the world media by storm
21:03:42 <alise> Ascender Corporation (Illinois, USA): Ascender releases new OpenType font pack for Microsoft Office 2010 with Expanded Super Comic Sans 2010"
21:03:45 <alise> It's NOT EVEN A JOKE
21:04:03 <alise> "Because the Comic Sans you had before WASN'T ENOUGH"
21:04:10 <alise> http://www.connare.com/whycomic.htm
21:04:15 <alise> In which he tries to defend himself
21:04:15 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol isn't even here to give us his delightfully Philistine views on typography.
21:04:31 <alise> "Comic Sans was NOT designed as a typeface but as a solution to a problem with the often overlooked part of a computer program's interface, the typeface used to communicate the message.
21:04:31 <alise> There was no intention to include the font in other applications other than those designed for children when I designed Comic Sans. The inspiration came at the shock of seeing Times New Roman used in an inappropriate way."
21:04:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "philistine"; I prefer "post-".
21:04:47 <alise> oklopol is a post-modern post-typographer.
21:04:53 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
21:06:15 <alise> he has aesthetics, they're just more minimalist than minimalism
21:06:20 <alise> i'm not sure he thinks anything should exist at all
21:07:02 <Vorpal> alise, when this is done installing and I get more than 640x480 screen res (found a thread on vbox forums about that) I will bring ms comic chat into here
21:07:32 <alise> Vorpal: But Planescape is 640x480.
21:07:40 <alise> also, you use that bear program
21:07:43 <Vorpal> alise, anyway it seemed windows 98 installer managed to underestimate time even on virtualbox
21:07:57 <Vorpal> alise, that is what I'm going to install
21:07:58 <alise> my favourite program <3
21:08:13 <alise> i used it to use win 95 in the vm :P
21:08:18 <alise> i liked those bears!
21:08:24 <alise> now i can't find the site
21:08:24 <Vorpal> alise, where did it show bears?
21:08:26 <alise> Vorpal: on the website
21:08:32 <alise> or the bottom, or both; I forget
21:08:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: VESA driver for Windows 9x
21:08:44 <alise> (and also XP but nobody uses that)
21:08:51 <alise> http://navozhdeniye.narod.ru/vbemp.htm
21:08:54 <alise> where are the bears...
21:08:57 <alise> E-Mail: bearwindows_at_operamail_dot_com | Last update: July 09th 2010
21:09:09 <Vorpal> bearwindows.boot-land.net?
21:09:14 <alise> there are bears somewhere
21:09:23 <alise> http://bearwindows.boot-land.net/
21:09:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: generic graphics interface
21:09:39 <Vorpal> alise, at the top yeah
21:09:42 <alise> like super-super-VGA
21:09:51 <alise> no 2D acceleration, but it gets you a decent range of resolutions on basically all graphics hardware
21:09:56 <alise> so it's often used as a default driver
21:09:58 <alise> Vorpal: and bottom!
21:10:26 <alise> "Old adapters support like EGA, CGA, Hercules etc. for testing purposes only :)"
21:10:29 <alise> Windows 95 on Hercules. Now.
21:11:10 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Arachne_CGA_Mode.png ;; 640x200: this is an actual CGA resolution.
21:11:30 <Vorpal> alise, how awkwardly wide screen
21:12:14 <alise> Vorpal: VBEMP's one flaw is that it can't set widescreen resolutions
21:12:17 <alise> even with PowerStrip
21:12:19 <alise> (various versions)
21:12:29 <alise> but i think it is technically possible to ask for wide resolutions using VESA
21:12:31 <alise> just nobody does it
21:12:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Here we view an image of Cthulhu AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
21:13:01 <Vorpal> alise, I plan to run it in windowed mode anyway
21:13:06 <Vorpal> alise, so not much of a problem for me
21:13:12 <alise> windowed games are rubbish
21:13:31 <Vorpal> alise, I meant windowed mode for virtualbox
21:13:33 <Vorpal> not for the game in it
21:13:48 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I can get virtualbox to add black borders around
21:13:53 <Vorpal> if I just maximise the thing
21:14:17 <Vorpal> alise, also if windowed games are rubbish, are you suggesting the classical mine sweeper is?
21:14:38 <alise> minesweeper isn't exactly immersive
21:14:44 <alise> Vorpal: try scaling. it works. seriously.
21:14:51 <alise> as long as it's a multiple
21:15:14 <alise> (there are quite good smoothing scalers but they only work on really low-res stuff; 320x200 adventure games etc.)
21:15:21 <alise> (not in the realms of dithering and the like)
21:15:59 <Vorpal> alise, they work great on zsnes games
21:18:04 <Vorpal> <alise> fuck Euclid! <-- ?
21:19:31 <Vorpal> alise, win95 with orthogonal persistence. Highly unrealistic but do you like the idea?
21:20:14 <Phantom_Hoover> All existing OSes rely on the disk/memory separation fundamentally.
21:20:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't know, I was just asking about the *idea*
21:22:57 <alise> I've indoctrinated Phantom_Hoover so wonderfully!
21:23:52 <Vorpal> alise, from what I remember palm OS has orthogonal persistence
21:24:04 <alise> Vorpal: quite likely.
21:24:12 <Vorpal> alise, so not all current OSes rely on it
21:24:24 <alise> large parts of the stock iPhone set do orthogonal persistence too -- Notes, for instance
21:24:28 <alise> persisted to the FS internally, but
21:24:40 <alise> the real thing with orthogonal persistence is that it has to be automatic, from a code perspective
21:24:52 <Vorpal> alise, I don't know if that is the case for palm os or not
21:26:35 <Vorpal> damn, virtualbox crashed on windows 98 post-setup configuration
21:26:56 <Vorpal> lets see if it is recoverable
21:28:47 <Vorpal> I'll just leave it, at least it is alternating between reading/writing disk in an irregular pattern, so probably not just locked up
21:29:39 <Vorpal> enter password for MS networking huh
21:30:34 <Vorpal> irregular disk access, so still hope
21:31:33 <alise> "Lisp Machine keyboard to PS/2 Converter - PIC16F84A firmware"
21:31:35 <alise> https://code.google.com/p/lmkbd/
21:31:40 <alise> From the man who brought you LoperOS.
21:31:46 <alise> Or, rather -- failed to bring you, so far.
21:32:09 <Vorpal> ah it restarts the whole post install thing, mostly
21:32:46 <Vorpal> alise, https://code.google.com/p/lmkbd/source/browse/trunk/README
21:33:05 <Vorpal> now it is again at the phase it previously crashed in
21:33:11 <alise> And that file's a year older than the assembly.
21:33:34 <Vorpal> https://code.google.com/p/lmkbd/source/list
21:33:39 <Vorpal> very useful commit messages XD
21:35:10 <Vorpal> alise, the only change in 2008 was "update email address"
21:39:00 <Vorpal> alise, classic mac had way better backward compat than windows
21:39:26 <alise> windows 7 still runs almost all windows 3.1 programs
21:39:37 <alise> i think there's like one that doesn't run
21:40:15 <Vorpal> what about the planescape cd
21:40:18 <alise> windows 7 runs *all* windows 3.1 programs,
21:40:24 <alise> XP even runs Windows 1.01 programs:
21:40:24 <alise> http://toastytech.com/guis/miscwin1xp.png
21:40:30 <alise> iirc windows 7 broke support for one or two of the 1.01 programs
21:40:39 <Vorpal> alise, yeah but what about planescape?
21:40:58 <alise> Vorpal: the transition from 9x to NT was painful. games tend to access hardware in a quite low-level fashion.
21:41:01 <alise> even directx may have had some issues
21:41:19 <Vorpal> ooh win98 startup sound
21:41:20 <alise> anything poking around the internal mac stuff wouldn't have liked a new mac model
21:41:25 <alise> windows 95's is bette
21:41:27 <Vorpal> huh, not as I remembered it
21:41:29 <alise> composed by brian eno, bitch
21:42:12 <alise> basically invented ambient music?
21:42:22 <alise> Music for Airports?
21:43:42 <Vorpal> alise, "Heitor Villas-Lobos"?
21:43:45 <alise> Vorpal: he managed to convince microsoft to give him royalties
21:43:49 <alise> imagine how that went :)
21:43:57 <Vorpal> alise, "not him in 98"
21:44:02 <Vorpal> is how it went I imagined
21:44:04 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, "Heitor Villas-Lobos"?
21:44:16 <alise> i never said /his/ name.
21:44:34 <Vorpal> alise, do you not know who I'm talking about?
21:44:36 <alise> I don't see the relevance.
21:44:44 <Vorpal> that is the relevance :O
21:44:55 <alise> brian eno is actually famous for being amazing, though.
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21:45:15 <Vorpal> alise, so is the name I mentioned. In the right places
21:49:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, I have right in front of me a 7-cd box with his complete works
21:50:00 <Vorpal> unless I'm mistaken. Complete Choros and Bachianas Brasilerias anyway + complete solo guitar music
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21:58:18 <Vorpal> alise, it wants to setup dialup, how do I get it to use ethernet
21:58:21 <Vorpal> it sees the interface!
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22:11:32 <Sgeo> o.O at The Guild
22:11:35 <Sgeo> amazing episode
22:12:49 <Sgeo> alise, what advice have I been ignoring?
22:14:02 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:16:44 <alise> Sgeo: "recover it *now*"
22:17:15 <Sgeo> I want to do that
22:17:59 <Sgeo> But I can't comply, unless it's 100% safe to leave a computer with a power supply from 2000 running for over a week, sometimes unsupervised...
22:19:29 <Vorpal> alise, that bearvideo driver makes stuff crash
22:19:37 <Vorpal> I wonder if qemu will do better
22:19:56 <alise> works fine with win95 in virtualbox for me.
22:20:06 <alise> Sgeo: Of course it's safe ...
22:20:17 <alise> And no, you didn't do that.
22:20:18 <Sgeo> It can't catch fire or anything?
22:20:21 <alise> As soon as you reported it we told you to.
22:24:51 <Vorpal> alise, he is an incurable idiot, just accept it and give up. Saves on head desking
22:25:23 <alise> Sgeo: you're being stupid, but i'm not one to blatantly insult people in a public message addressed to someone else. Vorpal is retarded.
22:25:56 * Sgeo assumes that that was intentional hypocracy
22:30:48 <Sgeo> "yep, i'll be more worried about a old CRT monitor catching fire then any computer/computer psu
22:30:54 <Sgeo> Then again, that's one random person
22:31:54 <Sgeo> My dad said that power supplies do short out...
22:32:03 <alise> your dad says a lot of stupid stuff.
22:33:52 <Sgeo> I'm going to want evidence, one way or another
22:33:58 <Sgeo> I want to see a trustworthy source
22:34:55 <Vorpal> I never seen a PSU fail, I had one suspected PSU failure years ago, turned out it was mobo. It was not violent in any way
22:35:29 <Sgeo> The computer I want to use is a desktop
22:35:51 <Vorpal> PSUs do generally not fail
22:36:03 <Sgeo> Even ones from a decade ago?
22:36:38 <Vorpal> Sgeo, just check for dust and blow it away if possible if you are really worried, but seriously nothing to be worried about
22:36:51 <Vorpal> it isn't like copying disk data will be a heavy task anyway
22:37:09 <Sgeo> I won't need to copy this CD if I make a GRUB CD
22:37:27 <Sgeo> That would also make starting this computer much more convenient
22:37:34 <Vorpal> Sgeo, or why not just restore from your backups
22:37:42 <Sgeo> I don't have backups...
22:37:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo, will you at least start with backups from now on?
22:38:01 <Sgeo> On the other hand, is there any way to just locate and pull out the stuff I care about?
22:38:11 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I guess... don't know where I'd back up to
22:38:15 <Vorpal> pull the disk image then work on that
22:38:23 <Vorpal> Sgeo, get an external 250 GB disk or such
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22:38:47 <Sgeo> What happens when I get a 2TB drive for a new computer?
22:39:04 <Vorpal> Sgeo, well, then you would presumably need to grow backup device as well
22:39:09 <Vorpal> but I wouldn't get a 2 TB one
22:39:24 <Vorpal> large disks are not as reliable from what I heard
22:39:30 <Vorpal> 1 TB is about max I would get
22:39:38 <Vorpal> if I needed more I would get several and use in RAID5 or such
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22:41:27 <Vorpal> Sgeo, but in general backing up documents is probably more important than downloaded movies and programs. Programs can be reinstalled. TV shows could be re-downloaded
22:42:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, also a cool trick for hot backup that I seen is that if you have 3 disks, you constantly have two in RAID1, and then add a third one and let it sync, then deattach one. Now it is a backup.
22:42:47 <Vorpal> I haven't tried it myself
22:43:28 <Vorpal> but with hardware RAID with dirty bitmap it is probably quite nice (such bitmaps in linux software raid have abysmal performance)
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23:02:47 <Sgeo> Now I just need to convince my dad...
23:02:58 <Sgeo> When he wakes up
23:08:00 <Sgeo> alise, have I ever been madly in love with Haskell?
23:08:21 <Sgeo> I think falling in love is how I learn languages, unless I have to learn the language for some other reason
23:13:22 <nooga> is therea way to write a perl regexp that matches strings that DO NOT contain specified substring?
23:13:39 <nooga> (straightforward way)
23:14:09 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Now I just need to convince my dad... <Sgeo> When he wakes up <-- how old is he?
23:14:41 <Vorpal> since otherwise there would be no need to convince him
23:15:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, then why the fuck do you need to care about what your dad thinks
23:17:06 <Vorpal> nooga, if it is something specific maybe I can help explain it
23:17:09 <nooga> you turn 18, ding, you're an adult
23:17:27 <Vorpal> nooga, well, you can't buy alcohol until 21
23:17:41 <alise> i guess you guys are a bit weird with alcohol
23:17:43 <alise> state-owned stores and stuff
23:17:50 <Vorpal> alise, well you can at restaurants.
23:17:55 <Vorpal> just not in the state owned stores
23:18:09 <Vorpal> alise, or beer (sold in normal supermarkets)
23:18:26 <nooga> my 17yo brother was buying cider all the time ;D
23:18:41 <alise> Vorpal: haha really?
23:23:47 <fizzie> As a reference point, the Finnish state-owned alcohol monopoly sells beer/wine at 18 but "strong" drinks (>22 vol-%) at 20.
23:24:21 <alise> and i sell heroin to kids at 12!
23:25:21 <fizzie> Oh, and that was retail; for restaurants and such it's just 18 in general.
23:25:26 <pikhq> alise: Less weird than the US.
23:25:54 <pikhq> Where if you're under 21, you basically cannot have alcohol pass your lips.
23:28:39 <Vorpal> <alise> beer but no wine? <-- is sold in supermarkets yes
23:28:47 <Vorpal> the 21 year age applies to both
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23:29:39 <Vorpal> alise, the only thing it doesn't apply to is consumption at a place with legal right to serve alcohol, such as many (but not all) restaurants, in which case the age limit is iirc 18 or such.
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23:37:06 <alise> Vorpal: http://toastytech.com/guis/miscbapps.png
23:37:47 <alise> http://toastytech.com/guis/miscbmultimedia.png
23:37:54 <alise> http://toastytech.com/guis/miscbnetwork.png (flash!!)
23:38:08 <alise> (more: http://toastytech.com/guis/miscb.html)
23:41:55 <alise> (Yes, that's OS X running on Windows 95)
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23:52:27 <Vorpal> alise, planescape seems to work fine in XP
23:53:01 <alise> probably because it uses virtualbox graphics drivers
23:53:04 <alise> rather than actual hardware
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23:53:17 <pikhq> Microsoft brought the "ribbon" interface to Pain & WordPad as well.
23:53:57 -!- augur has joined.
23:56:28 <pikhq> It's an exercise in defying the law of least surprise.
23:56:31 <ais523> the ribbon is like toolbars, except it takes an extra click
23:56:55 <ais523> so it's usable, just slower
23:57:03 <pikhq> Toolbars. Instead of the menu. That are "context-sensitive". With a dynamic hierarchy.
23:57:15 <ais523> also, it requires you to memorise where everything is, because it's generally less discoverable than menus
23:57:38 <ais523> at least, it's slower to scroll over every ribbon to see which one a particular item is on, than it is to scroll over every menu to see which one a particular item is on
23:57:48 <Vorpal> alise, hw accel support is active in xp x64 here so hm
23:57:57 <pikhq> The arrangement of the ribbon is dependent on the window dimensions.
23:58:00 <ais523> apparently, the reason Microsoft invented ribbons is that they kept getting feature requests for features that were in their applications already
23:58:04 <ais523> just nobody had found them on the menu
23:58:20 <pikhq> I'd call that reason to start paring out features.
23:58:38 <alise> <pikhq> Microsoft brought the "ribbon" interface to Pain & WordPad as well.
23:59:09 <pikhq> http://toastytech.com/guis/win7appuis.png Windows 7: now with 3 completely different UI conventions!
23:59:24 <Gregor> First they brought Pain to the ribbon interface ... then they brought the ribbon interface to Pain.
00:00:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, I would excuse the calculator on the grounds that everyone does it that way it seems
00:00:07 <Vorpal> unless you are doing a CAS
00:00:20 <Vorpal> in which case you don't try to emulate a calculator
00:00:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, but here's the thing: the menu/interface type thing is the normal UI convention on Windows. Except for the things that decide "fuck you".
00:01:03 <Gregor> Most of which are Microsfot things.
00:01:07 <Gregor> But not ALL Microsfot things.
00:01:08 <alise> pikhq: I think the only UI-abusing Windows application that's actually got it right is Chrome.
00:01:33 <pikhq> alise: Probably. It actually doesn't feel like it's abusing the UI at all.
00:01:36 <Vorpal> why do games get away with it
00:01:52 <Gregor> Bleh, hate Chrome's UI.
00:02:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because those run effectively single-tasked as the sole program on the system.
00:02:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm most have pretty extreme UIs though
00:02:41 <Gregor> Yes, but they're not integrated into the system.
00:02:52 <Gregor> They're not an application in that you don't multitask with them.
00:02:52 <Vorpal> mines is consistent I guess
00:02:59 <Gregor> They're like a reboot.
00:03:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, you don't know how I play then
00:03:28 <Vorpal> I always play windowed and pause if anything interesting happens on irc
00:06:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:08:49 <alise> yes, but you are also boring.
00:09:04 <alise> pikhq: Consultant #1, get your ass over to #mitosis.
00:09:10 <alise> I hereby consult you on this matter.
00:16:02 <alise> pikhq: You are violating your contract.
00:18:04 <Sgeo> Factor 0.94 was released
00:21:49 <alise> i really wish slava died before he could invent factor.
00:22:02 <alise> no, but it sounds fun enough to play sometime
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00:23:39 * Sgeo feels a very, very strong urge to teach Haskell to someone
00:37:25 <alise> Sgeo: teach it to me.
00:37:30 <alise> i've suffered from amnesia
00:39:43 <Sgeo> First thing to know: Functions are not like functions in most languages. Functions in Haskell only depend on arguments. So addition, (+). 1 + 1 is always two. All functions in Haskell behave like this
00:40:14 <Sgeo> So you can't have a function that returns a random number
00:40:22 <Sgeo> You can't have a function that reads input
00:40:54 <Sgeo> Haskell does have a way of dealing with this, but first, we should learn about types
00:41:05 <quintopia> what he's saying is, there are not procedures without monads
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00:41:40 <Sgeo> quintopia, alise doesn't actually not know this stuff
00:41:49 <Sgeo> E just wants to see if I have any teaching ability
00:42:06 <quintopia> and i'm critiquing it to align more with your audience :D
00:42:29 <quintopia> this crowd prefers mathematical rigor, i think
00:42:54 <alise> Sgeo: no, actually
00:43:18 <alise> i was already 99% sure you had no teaching ability, like almost everyone else including me, because teaching is really hard and not many people can do it at all
00:43:20 <alise> i'm just saving someone else
00:44:43 <Sgeo> Anyways, things in Haskell have types. However, the type system in Haskell is more elaborate than in, say, C++
00:45:28 <Sgeo> Bleh, it's hard for me to do this over IRC
00:45:38 <quintopia> i'm actually not such a bad teacher, but i know that this is not a good environment for the teaching
00:45:40 <Sgeo> I sort of want to be in front of the person, demonstrating syntax stuff
00:46:13 <alise> even if you feel like you're teaching well you probably aren't :p
00:46:23 <alise> you in general, not just specific-you
00:47:07 <Sgeo> Syntax: a :: Sometype means that a has Sometype. Unlike many statically-typed languages, you often don't need to write types out
00:47:17 <quintopia> you must have high standards for the teaching
00:47:19 <Sgeo> The type of 'a' is Char
00:47:32 <Sgeo> If you have GHCi open, type :t 'a'
00:47:40 <quintopia> i think of a teacher as no more than a guide to point a student in directions of interest
00:49:04 <Sgeo> Strings, delimited with "", like "this", are of type [Char]
00:49:14 <Sgeo> [Char] means a list of Chars
00:50:10 <Sgeo> This can also be written as String. String is, in fact, a synonym for [Char]. It's easy to define your own synonyms for types
00:51:04 <Sgeo> Numbers are a bit different.
00:51:14 <ais523> quintopia: well, my day job's teaching Java
00:51:20 <ais523> but I don't have to do it all by myself
00:51:33 <Sgeo> You'll see the type is (Num a) => a
00:51:37 <ais523> (and personally, I think it's an awful choice for a first language to learn)
00:51:51 <ais523> my other day job is more interesting
00:52:13 <quintopia> ais523: agreed. but what are your usual methods?
00:52:20 <Sgeo> Essentially, what this means is that within the stuff to the right of the =>, a is in the Num class. Don't worry about what this means just yet.
00:52:32 <ais523> System.out.println's used quite a lot while you're learning
00:52:41 <ais523> have I deliberately misinterpreted your question?
00:52:55 <Sgeo> Only you can know that
00:53:12 <ais523> well, I may have deliberately tried to misinterpret it, but accidentally interpreted it correctly
00:53:38 <quintopia> it was a useful answer, but not exactly what i was looking for no
00:53:47 <quintopia> i was thinking more along the line of how you interact with the students
00:54:01 <quintopia> how to manage the process/plan etc.
00:54:05 <ais523> taking tutorial classes, and marking work
00:54:11 <ais523> I'm not the main teacher for the course
00:54:30 <ais523> you get the most teaching done during the marking, because the student is there and you can explain the things they got wrong to them one-on-one
00:57:46 <alise> <Sgeo> Syntax: a :: Sometype means that a has Sometype. Unlike many statically-typed languages, you often don't need to write types out
00:58:01 <alise> (a :: t) at the top level declares a to have type t -- which, obviously, doesn't typecheck if a isn't actually of type t
00:58:12 <alise> but as an expression, (a::t) coerces a to type t, if a can be coerced to type t
00:58:19 <alise> for instance, 5 is (Num a) => a, but (5::Integer) works
01:04:49 <Sgeo> Why is Flash player randomly crashing on me?
01:05:00 <pikhq> AAAGH OH MY GOD OH MY GOD WHAT THE FUCK
01:05:17 <pikhq> Texas recently ruled that proof of innocence is not a reason to give someone a new trial.
01:05:25 <pikhq> Just a technical mistake in a previous trial.
01:05:44 <pikhq> They have the death sentence.
01:05:47 <pikhq> And use it regularly.
01:05:54 <alise> pikhq: Really, the only cure is #mitosis.
01:06:01 <alise> Which from, I now depart.
01:06:02 <pikhq> I prefer Texicide.
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01:06:54 <pikhq> Oh, sorry. *US SUPREME COURT*
01:06:59 <pikhq> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-c-fathi/shouldnt-innocence-matter_b_298507.html
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01:07:28 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to sign up for the GOP newsletter
01:07:55 <Sgeo> Need to get some balance in my email reading material, see if it's as nutty as I'm imagining
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01:08:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: Keep in mind they support a man who claims that Bush torturing innocent people was not cruel & unusual punishment because they were innocent and therefore it was not punishment.
01:09:08 <pikhq> You may now have your head asplode.
01:09:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, are they merely trying to say that on some technical level, it was legally ok, but not necessarily morally?
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01:10:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, they are saying that he is innocent but was charged in a "fair trial" and, as such, he shall be put to death.
01:10:29 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Sorry. Different context.
01:10:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: They are saying that it was legally OK and they don't even *care* about the morals.
01:10:56 <pikhq> "TERRORISTS THEREFORE NO MORALS"
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01:13:11 <pikhq> Aaand there shall be no repeal of DADT coming, because the Republicans are willing to fillibuster the defense authorization bill to do so.
01:13:22 <pikhq> (the bill that keeps the military going for another year)
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01:24:42 <Sgeo> tbh, it should not have been in the defense authorization bill, imo
01:27:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's de facto the omnibus "everything to do with the military" bill, and has been for ages.
01:27:28 <pikhq> Sure, it shouldn't be there, but it's not like it's some bizarre politicing.
01:27:33 <pikhq> Just retarded tradition.
01:28:00 <Sgeo> Suppose it never gets passed.
01:28:11 <pikhq> The military stops.
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01:36:29 <Gregor> ... omg. Yes. Awesome X-D
01:37:34 <Gregor> Filibustering the defense authorization bill.
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01:59:29 <Gregor> It seems to have been concluded that if DADT is repealed, the US troops in Afghanistan will instantly drop their weapons (and drawers) and have a whole-country gay orgy.
02:01:00 <quintopia> how many republicans do we need to assassinate to make that happen?
02:01:22 <quintopia> if we just took out the filibusterer, would there be enough confusion in the following moments to get it through?
02:01:53 <Gregor> Naw, that would just get the legislation back on the table.
02:02:12 <pikhq> Gregor: Whole-country gay orgy would certainly be an improvement.
02:02:44 <pikhq> If that would be what DADT would cause, if I were Obama, I would immediately order a whole-country gay orgy after signing the bill.
02:02:51 <Gregor> I should've chosen my innuendo-words more carefully, as they will most certainly not be /dropping/ their weapons :P
02:06:03 <quintopia> i feel sorry for the women in this campaign. their gay orgy won't be as big :/
02:06:51 <pikhq> But it shall be hot.
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02:21:57 <Gregor> I wonder if the fact that mmap is crazy-slow here is just because it is, or because I'm running this on qemu-system-arm ...
02:22:30 <pikhq> Something is probably up.
02:25:02 <Gregor> mmapping 64MB = crazy-slow.
02:25:30 <Gregor> Running these tests (that mmap three 64MB regions) takes 14 seconds.
02:34:20 <pikhq> That's absolutely bizarre.
02:34:41 <pikhq> mmap should take not very long.
02:34:49 <pikhq> Just a matter of rewriting the page table, after all.
02:35:33 <pikhq> I'm going to guess that qemu-system-arm has its own, retarded, implementation of mmap.
02:41:33 <Gregor> I should try extracting the binary and running it under qemu-arm
02:43:37 <Gregor> Sure enough, runs great on qemu-arm.
02:43:41 <Gregor> Probably just qemu-system-arm.
02:43:56 <Gregor> 300ms on qemu-arm, 14sec on qemu-system-arm :P
02:44:04 <pikhq> That's about right.
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03:03:27 <quintopia> is there a completely general funge interpreter out there? where dimension, delta-v=instruction correspondences and wrapping functions are all specified in a config file? and implements the spec completely?
03:04:06 <Sgeo> So, I sent someone a friend request
03:04:24 <Sgeo> Now, in the stream it shows that she (and other people) are attending events
03:04:30 <Sgeo> This is a little bit unsettling
03:06:47 <Sgeo> Actually, she hasn't accepted yet
03:07:06 <quintopia> maybe she doesn't have her events set to hide from friends of friends
03:07:37 <Sgeo> That too, I guess
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03:29:58 <Sgeo> Oh look, the "Not now" thing is implemented
03:30:15 <Gregor> quintopia: I don't know of one, but the fungers all seem to be offline.
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04:47:50 <oerjan> (no, i have no idea about your question. well actually i _vaguely_ recall someone mentioning something but no idea what it was called)
04:47:52 <quintopia> damn, i didn't realize i was sitting on the woodwork
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05:20:25 <Sgeo> Dear Ubuntu: PLEASE STOP ACTING LIKE AN UNSTABLE PIECE OF SHIT!
05:20:56 <Gregor> I prefer my pieces of shit stable.
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05:28:41 <quintopia> a more solid argument is just more solid bullshit
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05:48:16 <quintopia> anyone know if an SD card can be made bootable?
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06:04:07 <Gregor> quintopia: No reason why not, bootable on what?
06:04:25 <Gregor> If your PC can USB-boot, and you have a USB SD card reader, it can SD-boot.
06:05:25 <quintopia> apparently my external card reader can be made to boot, but not the onboard one
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06:07:58 <Sgeo> My computer will only boot from USB maybe 1/20th of the time
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06:25:34 <Sgeo> Gregor, don't forget to breathe
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06:36:58 <lament> i got the urtext of mozart's sonatas as a present
06:37:10 <lament> and printed a go board to put on my bathroom door
06:37:27 <lament> and got some mooncake for the midautumn festival
06:37:42 <lament> and got a notice from the landlord reminding that marijuana is illegal
06:38:59 <quintopia> (i'm assuming by the fact that your landlord bothers to point this out that you don't have the power to grow it in the basement
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07:16:16 * quintopia hands everyone awake a beer on a floppy disk coaster
07:16:33 <quintopia> you are expected not to drink it if you are not of legal age in your place of residence
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13:43:44 <oerjan> <cheater> what is a monad
13:46:52 <oerjan> it's a very abstract concept which apparently cannot be understood by most people (even programmers) immediately by any means whatsoever, whether by the strict definition (in haskell _or_ even worse the original category theory), lame analogies with burritos, or heaps of examples. however if you combine all three and stir for a long time, it _may_ eventually click for you.
13:47:51 * oerjan actually never had a problem with it, but then he already had a math phd when encountering them
13:50:15 <fizzie> Wait, I thought it was a member of a people that travels from place to place to find fresh pasture for its animals, and has no permanent home. Or am I thinking of nomad here?
13:51:06 <oerjan> fizzie: cue reddit pun thread
13:51:28 * oerjan was too lazy to try to continue it
13:51:56 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad_(disambiguation) still has that "For Haskell Nomads, please see Monad (functional programming)" line.
13:52:34 * oerjan tries to google for "no you are thinking of nomads" without luck
13:54:16 <oerjan> "no you are thinking of" site:reddit.com monad doesn't help either
13:54:39 <oerjan> apparently there is a great reddit pun thread missing here
13:55:31 <oerjan> (on the other hand googling for "no you are thinking of" site:reddit.com may give you a hint of what i was expecting there)
13:57:50 <oerjan> even leaving out reddit doesn't help :(
13:59:24 <fizzie> "No, you are thinking of an archivist. An anarchist is a violet variety of quartz often used in jewelry."
13:59:31 <fizzie> Yes, that sure sounds sensible.
14:01:39 <oerjan> sensible enough that i think i guessed what the next word is, anyway
14:17:03 <fizzie> Stands to reason you'd appreciate them especially.
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14:29:15 * oerjan tried in vain to predict the pun before the last panel
14:32:06 <oerjan> Panel is a land-locked mountainous country in Asia.
14:34:43 <nooga> last but not least
14:34:48 <nooga> supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
14:35:34 <nooga> Methionylglutaminylarginyltyros-ylglutamylserylleucylphen-ylalanylalanylglutaminylleucyllysylgl-utamylarginyllysylglutamylglycylalan-ylphenylalanylvalylprolyphenylalanY-lvalythreonylleucylglycylaspartylp-rolylglycylisoleucylglutamylglutam-inylsErylleucyllysylisoleucylasp-artylthreonylleucylIsoleucylglutam-ylalanylglycylalanylasparthlalanylleucy-lglutamylleucylglycylisoleucylprolylp-henylalanylseRylaspartylprolylleucylal-anylaspartylglycylpRolylthreOnyli
14:35:51 <nooga> only 2k letters, sorry for spam
14:37:18 <nooga> fear of long words -> Hippopotomonstrosequippeddaliophobia
14:38:00 <oerjan> are you sure that last one is correctly spelled
14:38:49 <oerjan> not that it makes sense anyhow
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15:06:23 <nooga> oerjan: http://ohyeahfacts.tumblr.com/post/1049794757/methionylglutaminylarginyltyros-ylglutamylserylleucylphe
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15:33:16 <alisenix> [ 57.122] (**) Chicony USB 2.0 Camera: Device: "/dev/input/event7"
15:33:17 <alisenix> [ 57.125] (II) Chicony USB 2.0 Camera: Found keys
15:33:21 <alisenix> [ 57.125] (II) Chicony USB 2.0 Camera: Configuring as keyboard
15:35:45 <alisenix> 17:08:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: Keep in mind they support a man who claims that Bush torturing innocent people was not cruel & unusual punishment because they were innocent and therefore it was not punishment.
15:36:22 <alisenix> 17:28:11 <pikhq> The military stops.
15:36:31 <alisenix> that would be a hilarious, hilarious day
15:37:53 <alisenix> 19:03:27 <quintopia> is there a completely general funge interpreter out there? where dimension, delta-v=instruction correspondences and wrapping functions are all specified in a config file? and implements the spec completely?
15:37:57 <alisenix> well Language::Befunge does n-dimensional
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15:48:05 <SgeoN1> Ubuntu hates this school's wifi for some reason
15:48:13 <SgeoN1> My phone works just fine
15:48:25 <SgeoN1> Windows used to work just fine
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16:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I keep on thinking there's someone called Phoenix Arizona.
16:47:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well there _might_ be. nice way to be hard to google...
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17:21:15 <cheater> someone tell sgeon1 to use wicd
17:23:04 <cheater> also he has to install dhcpd for it because otherwise it's crap
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17:38:38 <Vorpal> <cheater> also he has to install dhcpd for it because otherwise it's crap <-- ipv6 supports stateless autoconfiguration *runs*
17:42:19 <cheater> no, dhcpd is a dhcp toolkit that wicd can use
17:43:47 <Vorpal> CC [M] drivers/md/raid6altivec1.o
17:43:47 <Vorpal> CC [M] drivers/md/raid6altivec2.o
17:50:50 <alise> Windows XP Embedded with Service Pack 2 » applications windows
17:51:38 <cheater> check this out, i refactored this shitty app we're using to only 10% the size!
17:54:00 <cheater> alise: the code i refactored is shrunk from e.g. 100's of lines per method to 2-5 lines.
17:56:07 <cheater> it's a toxic waste and uranium transport management/stock keeping application
17:58:19 <Gregor> He rewrote the whole thing as "return new Transfer(States::NewJersey);"
18:00:10 <cheater> the fact that it's reduced by that amount?
18:01:35 <cheater> alise: i have no reason to lie.
18:01:51 <cheater> alise: in fact, i don't remember any time i'd had a reason to lie to anyone in here
18:02:04 <cheater> i lie a lot to chicks i want to impress :p
18:02:18 <cheater> and to people who are prospective sources of jobs :p
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18:06:59 <alise> cheater: i doubt <cheater> it's a toxic waste and uranium transport management/stock keeping application
18:08:40 <cheater> alise: why would you doubt that?
18:08:56 <cheater> something has to manage all that crap
18:09:01 <cheater> do you know how much paperwork it is?
18:09:33 -!- cal153 has quit.
18:09:53 <cheater> if you have an industrial zone then you have to have full documentation and catastrophe plans for every toxic agent that you use there
18:10:14 <cheater> this is one of the main points of this application's existance :D
18:11:13 <cheater> just autogenerating paperwork
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18:12:54 <alise> cheater: oh, paperwork
18:13:03 <alise> i thought you meant it actually handled that stuff
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18:32:24 <cheater> alise__: transport management and stock keeping
18:32:45 <cheater> alise__: what else can you understand under 'handling uranium'?
18:32:49 <cheater> it doesn't run the reactor, no
18:33:00 <cheater> not sure what else you could be thinking of
18:38:29 <alise__> some automated part of uranium handling :P
18:43:50 <alise__> xDD Windows XP "Embedded" Edition is 3 CDs
18:46:49 <pikhq> alise__: I'm pretty sure that that's courtesy of having a lot of optional stuff.
18:47:15 <pikhq> It wouldn't surprise me if it's got multiple compiled versions of programs for the sake of being able to take out features.
18:47:38 <pikhq> So, yeah, kinda ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as you'd think.
18:47:57 <alise__> pikhq: That's why I'm downloading it. Remember MiniXP?
18:48:03 <alise__> It's about to get a whole fucking lot more mini.
18:48:27 <cheater> alise__: win xp PE is the best one i've found so far
18:49:02 <pikhq> alise__: Gotta love having XP as an actually sane OS.
18:49:08 <pikhq> Well, somewhat sane.
18:49:14 <pikhq> It's still Win32, after all.
18:55:17 <alise__> cheater: PE -- the pirate edition thing?
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18:56:54 <cheater> alise__: performance edition
18:56:58 <cheater> i thought there was only one PE
18:58:02 <cheater> i think it was about or under 200 mb
19:00:40 <Vorpal> alise__, where can you find that embedded edition?
19:00:53 <Vorpal> alise__, and um, does that exist for any newer version?
19:01:07 <Vorpal> after all.... xp is kind of... not going to be supported for many years from now
19:03:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: Windows Embedded 2009.
19:03:39 <pikhq> Which is itself an updated version of XP Embedded.
19:04:11 <pikhq> XP Embedded should be supported for a few years more, though.
19:05:08 <pikhq> They made a Windows Embedded Standard 7.
19:05:18 <pikhq> Which is about 300MB.
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19:14:01 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Which is itself an updated version of XP Embedded. <-- how fun
19:14:14 <Gregor> pikhq: Hey, they've always got WinCE ;)
19:14:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, 300 MB is *way* smaller than full 7 Pro at least
19:14:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, which is about 7 GB for the install
19:14:47 <Vorpal> (x86-64, never tried 32-bit version)
19:14:58 <Gregor> That's smaller than Vista.
19:15:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, way bigger than x64 XP though
19:15:57 <Vorpal> Gregor, which iirc is about 2.1 GB
19:16:08 <Vorpal> and that ix x86-64, not 32-bit
19:26:16 <alise__> cheater: is that the one that replaced the explorer with the win95 one? :)
19:27:34 <cheater> it doesn't use the xp shell
19:27:42 <cheater> it uses the "classic mode"
19:27:47 <cheater> i.e. basically w2000 shell
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19:29:42 <pikhq> Gregor: Ah, WinCE. An actual, legitimate embedded OS.
19:50:55 <alise__> cheater: there's one -- pirate edition or something -- that actually removes IE completely
19:51:04 <alise__> and substitutes Win 95's explorer
19:51:14 <alise__> since 98 onwards' explorer.exes require IE
19:53:06 <pikhq> One could probably, alternately, substitute in ReactOS's explorer.exe.
19:53:29 <pikhq> (now that it actually acts as a normal explorer.exe instead of a hacked up one)
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20:05:57 <alise__> pikhq: is there a download anywhere?
20:06:32 <alise__> does anyone know what the standard method is in Ubuntu for scheduling a periodic task?
20:08:41 <alise__> pikhq: http://www.foxplanet.de/explorer/
20:08:52 <alise__> is it always in that gross MDI view?
20:10:01 <pikhq> alise__: That looks like the WINE fileman.exe, actually.
20:10:12 <alise__> it's an old site for the reactos explorer, so
20:10:17 <pikhq> I think it can do the more normal SDI view.
20:10:55 <pikhq> It is probably in a CAB on the ReactOS install disk.
20:12:02 <alise__> pikhq: just check out the svn source :P
20:13:00 <pikhq> Should also build with Winelib. :P
20:13:40 <alise__> it lists no dir contents :)
20:14:07 <alise__> pikhq: a bigger issue is that the desktop sucks
20:15:24 <pikhq> alise__: It's probably running as just a file explorer, rather than the shell.
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20:28:15 <SgeoN1> What's the easiest way to check for damages wifi hardware?
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20:31:46 <Sgeo> What's the easiest way to test if the wifi hardware is damaged?
20:33:06 <alise__> pikhq: That was a Consulting Order :P
20:35:23 <alise__> pikhq: Do you know what time Astronomy Picture of the Day updates?
20:42:18 <alise__> "Q13: What if I used to be a millionaire but then I believed something I read on APOD and now own only a single dented bucket?
20:42:18 <alise__> A13: There are no guarantees. Use APOD information at your own risk."
20:43:14 <alise__> No seriously when does it update?
20:46:04 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:46:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:46:57 <alise__> do you know when Astronomy Picture of the Day updates?
20:48:00 <ais523> no, I didn't even know it existed
20:48:06 <ais523> although it seems a plausible sort of thing to exist
20:53:56 -!- cheater99 has joined.
20:55:23 <alise__> anyone know what the simplest way to check if a Linux box has connected to the internet yet from a shell script?
20:55:36 <ais523> that doesn't necessarily mean I had to know it existed
20:55:47 <ais523> alise__: ping something, or check DNS records for something on the Internet at large
20:55:57 <alise__> ais523: i was thinking more ifconfig :-)
20:56:00 <nooga> linux linux uhuhuhu
20:57:36 <nooga> alise__: fedora pings fedoraproject.org at boot to check if the box is online
20:57:46 <alise__> and what if fedoraproject.org goes down?
20:58:09 <nooga> probabyly they're really confident
21:02:53 <Gregor> "And whom are you?!" "What do you mean whom am I...m"
21:06:20 <alise__> No seriously when does APOD update.
21:06:24 <alise__> Is there even a fixed time?
21:08:44 <alise__> pikhq: I will bet you real money on how small I can get a usable XP.
21:22:49 -!- ais523 has left (?).
21:22:57 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:23:27 -!- nomed has joined.
21:23:33 <ais523> alise__: it wasn't a deliberate cycle
21:23:40 <ais523> this touchpad is really inaccurate
21:23:55 <ais523> to the extent that it'll occasionally middle-click on something that isn't even near where I thought the mouse pointer was
21:23:59 <ais523> while I'm trying to type
21:25:04 <nomed> |o| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9B1Mzi4oE0&feature=player_embedded
21:26:40 -!- nomed has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:29:05 <ais523> hmm, was that a spambot?
21:29:14 <ais523> not being able to see the link, I have no idea
21:36:59 <pikhq> alise__: Any progress/luck?
21:38:55 <alise__> I'm going to try installing it ASAP.
21:39:07 <alise__> I wonder if nLite works with it.
21:39:13 <alise__> Just in case it has a limit to how much you can remove.
21:47:23 <pikhq> Seems that nLite works with anything that uses the XP installation scheme.
21:47:37 <pikhq> That is, Windows 2000, XP, and Server 2003.
21:51:01 <alise__> pikhq: But XPe? It has a component-based system.
21:51:06 <alise__> cheater: i can't articulate it
21:51:10 <alise__> it's just the most meh VCS ever created
21:51:14 <cheater> i'm pretty much sold on bzr
21:51:21 <cheater> since it feels better than git
21:51:29 <alise__> git has a very solid foundation underneath
21:51:36 <alise__> that of a versioned userspace filesystem -- not a vcs, the vcs is built on top
21:51:42 <alise__> once you grok this, git becomes incredibly comfortable
21:53:31 <pikhq> alise__: So does normal XP. Just without a GUI.
21:54:26 <pikhq> cheater: bzr does everything wrong.
21:55:46 <pikhq> Yes, including that. And that.
21:59:25 <Vorpal> cheater, I find bzr nicer to use than git
21:59:41 <Gregor> That statement just blew my mind.
21:59:51 <Vorpal> cheater, though for some stuff I find hg more convenient, mostly when dealing with huge repos
22:00:20 <cheater> pikhq: try coming up with something less childish than that
22:00:28 <Vorpal> cheater, bzr is not as fast as hg for really really large (>150 MB source code, thousands of files) repos
22:00:34 <cheater> alise__: a versioned userspace filesystem isn't something i necessarily care a lot about
22:00:38 <pikhq> cheater: Are you familiar with how GNU tends to make stuff?
22:01:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, lucky that bzr was not made by GNU
22:01:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's the replacement for GNU arch, though.
22:02:32 <Vorpal> order of preference: bzr, hg, darcs, ..., svn, git, cvs, rcs, monotone
22:02:39 <pikhq> I suck at explaining what sucks about it.
22:02:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, just a subjective preference
22:03:30 <cheater> pikhq: i was just gonna say you suck at explaining :p
22:04:16 <Vorpal> cheater, nothing really wrong with bzr apart from that it can be a bit slow on *really* large repos. If you run into that I suggest using hg.
22:04:18 <pikhq> Well, regardless, we can all agree it's a step up from SVN, CVS, and *shudder* RCS.
22:04:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, monotone is worse than rcs though
22:05:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, also I would place that "visual sourcesafe" down near the bottom
22:05:10 <Vorpal> based on what I heard about it
22:05:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: Visual SourceSafe isn't even multiuser.
22:05:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, wait, isn't rcs single user too?
22:06:06 <pikhq> RCS is single *file*.
22:06:37 <pikhq> CVS is a monstrosity consisting of using RCS on multiple files.
22:06:38 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
22:07:36 <pikhq> And as such lacks things like atomic commits.
22:10:44 <Vorpal> looks like microsoft dropped it and replaced it
22:10:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, I can one-up you here
22:11:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, Genera's built in file versioning FTW!
22:11:16 <Vorpal> (it only stores a limited number of older versions too!)
22:12:30 <Gregor> "Doright, I ordered you to recruit mounties!" "He's a mounty!" "He's my daughter!"
22:16:58 -!- zeotrope has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:17:47 <Gregor> Quoting non sequiturs = fun :P
22:20:28 <ais523> alise__: I need some help, I think; Wooble is busy completely failing logic again in my paradox attempts (or in this case, a win-by-clout attempt that relies on a false-statement-implies-anything bug)
22:24:50 <Vorpal> ais523, it was a classical case of deduction. When you eliminated the gibberish, then whatever is left, no matter how nonsensical, must be the case.
22:31:17 <cheater99> ais523: so how is a monad different from an extra parameter?
22:31:41 <cheater99> is it different because by default, a function cannot manipulate that extra parameter?
22:31:53 <ais523> cheater99: well, things that aren't one-computation monads can't be implemented with just an extra param
22:32:01 <ais523> you can't do Maybe like that without actually modifying the functions in question
22:32:17 <ais523> an extra parameter plus some sort of systematic modification is one way to implement monads, incidentally
22:32:27 <Vorpal> you can't do that as an extra parameter afaik
22:32:38 <ais523> Vorpal: actually, GHC effectively implements IO as an extra-parameter monad
22:33:05 <ais523> after all, IO is designed for sequencing of operations wrt the real world
22:33:14 <ais523> but if you break encapsulation to copy the actual parameter, it generally segfaults
22:33:33 <ais523> so the point is, really, that the monads are encapsulated; you can't get at the parameter without using the monad
22:33:35 <Vorpal> ais523, how can you get hold of the extra parameter
22:33:56 <ais523> Vorpal: you need a standard library function, implemented with knowledge of the monad, to retrieve it for you
22:34:00 <ais523> like get in the State monad
22:35:00 <alise__> ais523: i'll see what i can do
22:35:17 <ais523> supporting my appeal would be nice
22:36:17 <nooga> http://gopherwoodstudios.com/entanglement/
22:37:25 <alise__> cheater99: many people are since 1993
22:37:32 <ais523> I'm a regular in ##nomic
22:37:37 <ais523> and playing two nomcis atm
22:39:32 <cheater99> what's the longest game you played?
22:39:47 <alise__> it has no beginning or end
22:39:51 <alise__> and is the nomic ais523 is currently talking about
22:40:16 <ais523> it started in 1993, it's /still going/
22:40:27 <ais523> partly because the rules were modified to not end the game when someone wins
22:40:30 <Vorpal> <nooga> http://gopherwoodstudios.com/entanglement/ <-- fun and just js
22:41:14 <Vorpal> a nomic with no beginning or end would be impressive
22:43:43 <alise__> <Vorpal> pikhq, monotone is worse than rcs though
22:43:55 <alise__> monotone may not be the easiest system but it's very well thought-out
22:44:07 <alise__> cheater99: they just keep playing
22:44:11 <alise__> if someone wins, the game keeps going. no change
22:44:21 <ais523> there are lulls sometimes, but normally there's something interesting happening
22:44:27 <ais523> after all, you can always change the rules to shake things up...
22:44:49 <ais523> via a win condition...
22:44:57 <ais523> nomics have rules, same as any other games
22:44:59 <alise__> quite obviously, "how do you win a nomic?" is an open question
22:45:03 <alise__> considering that the rules are *changable*
22:45:05 <ais523> some of them will normally describe how to win
22:45:20 <ais523> if none of the rules specify a way to win, you can nevertheless win by changing the rules so there is a way to win, then using it
22:45:39 <cheater99> no reason to be prissy. i forgot the definition of nomic.
22:46:03 <alise__> err, yet you were asking questions about how to keep them going?
22:46:04 -!- alise__ has changed nick to alise.
22:46:26 <Gregor> Alternatively, I would say that anybody who changes the rules of a nomic such that it no longer functions as a nomic can consider themselves to have won, even though technically they just stalemated :P
22:46:36 <alise> ais523: btw, if you're interested in my schizophrenic OS ramblings there's #mitosis now, though you'd have to be mad to enter
22:46:51 <alise> Gregor: if anyone did that to Agora, several players would probably never speak to them again
22:47:15 <Gregor> alise: This is the /evil/ win, if you don't piss people off then you haven't really won :P
22:47:36 <alise> Gregor: people take the metagaming part of nomic /really/ seriously
22:47:39 <ais523> you'd have most of the rest of the players migrating off to a new nomic
22:47:43 <alise> as in, you can cause havoc inside
22:47:44 <ais523> probably with a rule banning you for life
22:47:48 <alise> but it's very personal to fuck with the nomic itself
22:47:56 <alise> hell, even ... omg what was his name ais523?
22:47:59 <alise> I've forgotten his name
22:48:18 <pikhq> Gregor: This would be the rough equivalent of taking a bulk eraser to each computer with any file you were responsible for.
22:48:18 <ais523> or if I did, have forgotten
22:48:26 <ais523> or if I do know, haven't realised I do based on the available context
22:48:27 <alise> ais523: err, the famous scam
22:48:34 <alise> "go aestivate under a rock somewhere"
22:48:35 <ais523> there've been tens of those
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22:48:39 <alise> ais523: the original nomicworld
22:48:39 <pikhq> AKA "no jury will convict".
22:48:41 <ais523> hmm, oh in Nomic World?
22:48:43 <alise> the dictatorship scam
22:48:59 <alise> Gregor: even Lindrum was disowned as a rotten person by a large number of people
22:49:09 <alise> and he just (probably didn't actually, but people didn't know that) scammed a dictatorship
22:49:14 <ais523> it was still a nomic, technically
22:49:29 <ais523> imposing a dictatorship on Agora isn't considered bad form if you give it up soon afterwards
22:49:38 <alise> people are more... forgiving of scams like that nowadays, but destroying Agora, a nomic that has existed since 1993...
22:49:38 <ais523> leaving it as a playable nomic
22:49:43 <alise> would basically make people literally IRL hate you
22:49:53 <pikhq> Indeed, the results of that are still in the ruleset.
22:50:04 <alise> pikhq: there have been more since.
22:50:07 <alise> ais523: Remember the planned outcome of The Scam?
22:50:14 <alise> pikhq: You haven't heard this one, I don't think -- you might like it --
22:50:15 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, but the fountain is pretty lasting.
22:50:21 <ais523> I'm still not sure if everyone agreed on that one
22:50:28 <alise> ais523: well, you didn't :-)
22:50:50 <alise> pikhq: The plan was that we were going to *revert the entire ruleset* back to the original, 1993 ruleset. For one week, I think.
22:50:55 <ais523> and it was actually a pretty poor scam, given that comex managed to pull off a much simpler scam a few weeks later with the same effects
22:51:01 <alise> That is: Michael Norrish would *actually be the speaker*.
22:51:12 <pikhq> alise: Oh my dear goodness.
22:51:29 <alise> pikhq: Then it'd all go back to normal but with everyone permanently paranoid forevermore.
22:51:39 <ais523> alise: you couldn't force it back to norma
22:51:42 <alise> cheater99: nostalgia. tradition. Michael Norrish is busy doing actual mathematics and things like that
22:51:47 <ais523> just propose to let it back to normal, and hope people voted FOR
22:51:49 <alise> so he very rarely posts
22:51:53 <alise> and when he does it's in the discussion forum
22:51:57 <cheater99> so he would not be talking at all during that week?
22:52:10 <alise> cheater99: the idea was that we'd ask him to participate, if he didn't mind (and make someone else the speaker if he did mind)
22:52:14 <ais523> I'm sure he'd turn up if the future of Agora depended on it
22:52:16 <alise> (by changing the ruleset)
22:52:22 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:52:28 <alise> "No, I like this ruleset. It's simpler!"
22:52:34 <ais523> just like happened in A and B on occasion
22:52:51 <pikhq> ais523: He's still an observer IIRC.
22:53:02 <alise> pikhq: his last post was saying that spivak pronouns suck, iirc
22:53:13 <ais523> pikhq: yes, and in practice not just in theory
22:53:14 <alise> and saying they were introduced sometime and he'd have no problem with singular they personally
22:53:19 <ais523> he rarely says anything, but rarely != never
22:53:24 <alise> (introduced sometime = not in the original ruleset)
22:55:07 <alise> ais523: ok, i'll support that appeal now
22:55:18 <alise> pikhq: I will now install XPe in a VM.
22:55:52 <alise> pikhq: μχπ; guess the pun!
22:56:33 <nooga> what is this weird game of nomic?
22:57:19 <alise> Agora is pretty much the canonical nomic...
22:57:25 <alise> pikhq: Yes, indeed, "muchipi"; how hilarious!
22:57:36 <GreaseMonkey> http://f.cl.ly/items/a59396292a55e230ac03/2559.gif
22:57:57 <alise> pikhq: MicroXP; close enough.
22:58:15 <nooga> the thing is that... nomic is weird itself
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22:58:30 <nooga> i couldn't even find an explanation how to play it
22:58:38 <pikhq> nooga: That's because it varies.
22:58:40 <alise> "Math is the box of the Johnsons."
22:58:50 <alise> nomic is just any game where you can change the rules
22:58:52 <pikhq> nooga: The defining aspect of a nomic is that the rules are mutable.
22:58:55 <alise> or rather, any game where that is a large activity
22:59:00 <alise> nooga: for instance, here is a starting nomic ruleset
22:59:08 <alise> Rule 1. The rules can be changed with the consent of all players.
22:59:12 <cheater99> why is there no adjective form of holland?
22:59:13 <alise> that's the purest kind of nomic
22:59:31 <ais523> alise: you need some way to tell who's a player or not; either a rule, or a meta-agreement
22:59:42 <alise> ais523: that's for the Netherlands
22:59:51 <alise> ais523: meta-agreement should suffcie
22:59:56 <alise> generally, it's obvious who's playing a game
22:59:59 <ais523> people tend to use the adjective interchangeably for the two
23:00:00 <pikhq> ais523: For the 1-rule nomic, it's a meta-agreement. At least until things are defined.
23:00:03 <alise> pikhq: XPe install go!
23:00:15 <nooga> alise: ah, like in a democracy
23:00:22 <pikhq> alise: If you can has success, I may have to set up an XPe image here.
23:00:26 <Vorpal> <GreaseMonkey> http://f.cl.ly/items/a59396292a55e230ac03/2559.gif <-- heh... kind of
23:00:29 <alise> nooga: Nomic /is/ democracy; or at least, anything that can be called nomic more than vaguely
23:00:37 <alise> it was invented by Peter Suber in a book about law
23:00:40 <pikhq> alise: Well, there's royal nomics.
23:00:42 <alise> to study the philosophy of law
23:00:46 <alise> pikhq: which are only technically nomics :P
23:00:49 <pikhq> Where a king gives assent to rules.
23:00:55 <alise> pikhq: I have a link to an XPe + SP2 torrent.
23:01:00 <cheater99> The Netherlands in its entirety is often referred to as Holland
23:01:05 <pikhq> alise: Link; I'll download in a bit.
23:01:22 <alise> cheater99: that is totally wrong, though
23:01:28 <cheater99> three different words to describe the same shitty little worthless country
23:01:35 <alise> pikhq: http://www.torrentz.com/6c0dc08d5af0aa2249da7b66d027e1819518af2c
23:01:42 <cheater99> alise: holland is the official name of the netherlands in polish, for example.
23:01:46 <alise> we need semantic URI permalinks for torrents
23:01:51 <alise> to avoid linking to a particular tracker
23:01:55 <alise> I wonder if DHT could help there
23:02:07 <alise> i think those specify a tracker
23:02:22 <alise> pretty sure they do
23:02:34 <alise> pikhq: CD 1, 2 or 3? I guess 1.
23:02:41 <alise> It's the smallest though. :P
23:03:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, you linked to a torrent on irc? that isn't done
23:03:15 <Vorpal> you tell people to google
23:03:16 <alise> it's only not done in your fantasy world
23:03:21 <alise> only irritating people do that
23:03:30 <Vorpal> alise, well for torrents...
23:03:33 <alise> but please, show me the baby i killed and i'll repent.
23:03:39 <alise> pikhq: Preinstallation environment! Fuck yeah!
23:03:53 <alise> pikhq: Wait, how do I use the preinstallation environment?
23:04:05 <Vorpal> alise, screenshot of it
23:04:23 <alise> Vorpal: imagine the blue-mountain-with-moon background of XP, plus a command window opened to X:\i386\system32
23:04:28 <alise> with a disclaimer at the top saying you agree to the EULA if you continue
23:04:51 <Vorpal> alise, I would have expected something fun
23:05:05 <Vorpal> alise, with at least *one* big red button
23:05:35 <cheater99> i would have expected a blank screen
23:05:43 <alise> pikhq: ...Idiotic idea approaching: Windows PE: The Distribution
23:05:54 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d3/WinPE2005.png ;; well, this is a start
23:08:17 <nooga> do i have to read all of 6840 rules to play agora?
23:08:29 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:08:39 <ais523> nooga: there aren't that many rules
23:08:42 <ais523> the rule numbers skip numbers
23:08:45 <alise> nooga: there aren't even close to that many rules :P
23:08:54 <alise> nooga: read comex's fancy SLR
23:08:57 <ais523> alise: this seems to be a common misapprehension, maybe
23:09:08 <ais523> I think my Website Submission clears it up, but it might not
23:09:18 <alise> hmm, where's comex's thing?
23:09:19 <alise> with the mouseovers
23:10:34 <alise> pikhq: wait, didn't you take part in the fountain?
23:11:13 <ais523> alise: ?annotate=1 on the HTML FLR, IIRC
23:11:16 <coppro> and Canada's gun registry will survive
23:11:34 <alise> nooga: http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.html?annotate=1
23:11:36 <coppro> after a 153-151 vote in the House of Commons
23:11:42 <alise> hover over things to get something that's probably accurate
23:12:01 <alise> nooga: http://agora.qoid.us/shalls.txt
23:12:04 <alise> here's stuff you have to do.
23:12:36 <alise> nooga: also, don't say anything about rule 104; just don't
23:13:34 <alise> pikhq: I propose that lo, MicroXP shall be amazing.
23:14:22 <alise> If anyone installs Windows 95 into a VM and extracts explorer.exe, I will be forever in their debt.
23:14:27 <alise> (Note: Forever = five minutes.)
23:14:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:16:26 <nooga> could you, say, attempt to change the Agora's official language
23:17:35 <ais523> yes, although it probably wouldn't pass
23:17:42 <ais523> you can propose anything, it's up to the other players to vote on it
23:18:07 <nooga> to... http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ænglisc_sprǣc
23:18:18 <alise> nooga: yes, but nobody would vote on it.
23:18:30 <alise> nobody would vote for it, rather
23:18:35 <alise> apart from me and comex
23:20:27 <alise> pikhq: err okay, seirously, do you know how to use WinPE? :D
23:24:08 <alise> pikhq: mission report so far: can't find the damn setup :)
23:25:27 <pikhq> alise: The fountain predates me.
23:26:19 <pikhq> alise: WinPE is just a Windows boot disk.
23:26:29 <alise> pikhq: It's also all XPe has in the way of installation.
23:26:35 <alise> Apparently I have to copy some directory over then run some thing then reboot.
23:26:39 <alise> I cannot find the directory.
23:27:57 <pikhq> alise: Find & run setup.exe
23:28:06 <Vorpal> couldn't sleep, so here is an intel CPU (sorry for the flood):
23:28:07 <Vorpal> ╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮
23:28:07 <Vorpal> ╭╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╮
23:28:07 <Vorpal> │ L7010276 (c) INTEL '78 '84 │
23:28:08 <Vorpal> ╰╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╯
23:28:13 <Vorpal> ╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯
23:28:20 <Vorpal> (markings mostly correct)
23:28:26 <alise> And you complain about me flooding.
23:28:29 <alise> pikhq: not that simple, actually
23:28:35 <alise> setup.exe is just a guide to WinPE, pretty much
23:28:39 <alise> http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/28255-how-to-use-winpe-for-network-unattend-install/
23:28:52 <Vorpal> alise, of course, but if you flooded unicode art of 8086 I would forgive you
23:29:04 <alise> pikhq: it may be on one of the three disks
23:29:10 <alise> pikhq: here, you download it, i'm not suffering alone :P
23:29:24 <alise> your pay shall be: a FREE copy of MicroXP!
23:29:43 <alise> And that gift is even more important than friendship.
23:29:45 <pikhq> Oh, so it seems that you need to run it on a copy of XP to build images.
23:29:56 <alise> But this /is/ the entire XPe distribution;
23:30:00 <alise> It has *three disks*.
23:30:27 <alise> But I doubt you need XP.
23:30:33 <alise> That's ridiculous.
23:30:40 <alise> It's three effin' disks! They must have an installer!
23:30:48 <pikhq> You need XP to create the custom XPe images that you install.
23:30:56 <alise> pikhq: What about a ... non-custom ... XPe... image...
23:31:00 <pikhq> It is apparently not sanely designed.
23:31:03 <pikhq> alise: It's all custom.
23:31:19 <alise> Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha pikhq: your job is to make an image
23:35:33 <alise> pikhq: So how much of a pain is making an image?
23:36:02 <pikhq> alise: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/library/ms940811.aspx
23:36:19 <pikhq> Most of that is installing the image maker.
23:36:20 <alise> pikhq: Suicide pact?
23:38:39 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT1IGy_AGgQ The pizza smoothie was Obama's idea.
23:40:50 <alise> pikhq: Hypothesis: Windows XP Embedded clearly can't remove that much more than a regular installation with nLite!
23:40:54 <alise> Therefore project aborted NEVER SPEAK OF IT AGAIN
23:40:58 * pikhq looks for an unhacked copy of Windows XP.
23:41:10 <pikhq> I happen to have an XP license and no disc.
23:43:17 <pikhq> Hrm, wait. That has activation attached.
23:43:53 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, just use the pirated version.
23:44:00 <alise> Fun fact: A single XP key can only be activated, I think, five times!
23:44:28 <alise> XP fucks you over one too many times? You gotta reinstall? Maybe you want to make a legal VM on your shiny new Ubuntu Macintosh Optimus Prime Transformers Robots In Disguise?
23:44:32 <alise> WHOOPS NO SORRY LOL YOU HAVE TO PHONE MICROSOFT
23:45:09 <Gregor> Five? I thought it was three.
23:45:13 <alise> pikhq: Most cracked XP discs are just the regular XP disc with a cracking program to be used in Safe Mode included in the root of the disc.
23:45:16 <alise> Gregor: Hmm, possibly.
23:46:49 <pikhq> Oh, wait, I've got a corporate edition disc still here, I think.
23:47:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:47:50 <pikhq> ... But, that one had something odd about it. :/
23:48:18 <nooga> 28 of 80 ppl on my year failed "basics of programming" course
23:48:46 <nooga> and only one with the best grade possible is.... me :F
23:48:51 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_.
23:48:51 <alise> Gah, which is that pirate XP variant with the Win95 explorer?
23:48:54 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
23:49:29 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:49:33 * pikhq is going to try & find a plain XP disk and a nice, illegal key for the sake of nLiteing right
23:51:18 <alise> pikhq: Hey, I've monopolised that industry.
23:51:28 <nooga> that means at least two things: students are idiots, teachers can't teach
23:51:33 <alise> pikhq: I WILL PUT YOU OUT OF BUSINESS WITH TOTAL IE REMOVAL
23:51:46 <alise> The words "Internet Explorer" will even be removed from the manual!
23:52:14 <ais523> what will you replace them with?
23:53:21 <pikhq> alise: I'll do you one better. Windows 2000: the last version of Windows without obnoxious bloat.
23:54:00 <alise> pikhq: Ha ha ha. You mean Windows 95.
23:54:05 <alise> ais523: Nothing! That saves disk space!
23:54:24 <pikhq> alise: Okay, okay. But there's not a free tool for trimming that down.
23:54:35 <alise> "- Browse the internet with , Microsoft's premier web browser."
23:54:42 <alise> pikhq: It doesn't need trimming down.
23:54:57 <pikhq> YES IT DOES I SAID SO
23:55:03 <alise> pikhq: Ever used 95?
23:55:14 <alise> pikhq: For extended periods of time?
23:55:33 <pikhq> Yes; it was the OS on my computer before I started using Linux.
23:56:32 <alise> pikhq: When was that?
23:56:50 <nooga> i don't know why anyone decides to use windows nowadays
23:57:26 <nooga> when macs are relatively cheap and linux distros are so cool
23:58:01 <nooga> i think the thing is... many ppl don't decide, they just get a computer with something installed
23:58:05 <pikhq> alise: Well, the first system we had with 95 was obtained in '96... I had been using an old POS system with 95 until about 2001, though.
23:58:23 * Sgeo has used Windows ME for extended periods of time...
23:58:40 <alise> Sgeo: I have too; liquefied pain.
23:58:51 <alise> pikhq: Without the IE update that converted explorer.exe to IE, I hope.
23:59:13 <pikhq> alise: Came out of the box that way. OSR2.
23:59:57 <alise> pikhq: Blech, vomit, puke, stomp on.
00:00:10 * Sgeo is addicted to SGU music
00:00:10 <alise> 95's explorer.exe = awesome
00:00:38 <alise> pikhq: I actually went quite happily a while back with a maximised VM running Windows 95 for a few days.
00:01:11 -!- alise has left (?).
00:01:14 -!- alise has joined.
00:01:19 <alise> I typed a long message
00:01:54 <pikhq> alise: Presumably you were happy except for the lack of a modern browser.
00:02:10 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, I highly recommend installing 95 in a fast VM like VirtualBox, installing the VESA driver, and then going into fullscreen mode for a few days. Seriously; it's fun. You can get a modern browser -- Seamonkey a few releases back works, Nathan of Toasty Technology (the GUI gallery person) was working to correct that at the time.
00:02:13 <Sgeo> What's the difference between shallow binding and deep binding for dynamically-scoped variables?
00:02:16 <alise> A few releases back = *minor* releases.
00:02:21 <Sgeo> The c2 wiki fails to be comprehensible to me
00:02:22 <alise> It was, literally, almost latest Gecko.
00:02:38 <alise> It was perhaps a few months to a year old.
00:02:47 <alise> And, as I said, Nathan was working with the team to get the latest release working.
00:02:59 <alise> pikhq: Did I mention that Nathan /uses Windows 95 as his daily driver/?
00:03:03 <alise> It is his main OS.
00:03:21 <alise> pikhq: Oh yeah, I had an IRC client too, though I forget which.
00:03:26 <pikhq> alise: And it's nice that Seamonkey still works.
00:03:27 <alise> In fact, an awful lot of stuff works, really.
00:03:37 <alise> pikhq: In fact, the latest-but-one Cygwin release (the one before Unicode support) works on Windows 95!
00:04:16 <alise> Honestly: if you have some free time and get bored, fullscreen a 95 VM with the VBEMP drivers and have some fun.
00:04:24 <alise> I actually started really liking it.
00:04:28 <pikhq> Seamonkey no longer supports 95.
00:04:35 <alise> pikhq: Supports officially, perhaps.
00:04:53 <alise> pikhq: But I just kept trying older releases until it worked, and Nathan still uses it, so he has a prerogative to keep it working.
00:04:55 <pikhq> Gecko started to rely on Cairo, which doesn't function for below 2000.
00:05:03 <alise> And the team were very responsive to him in the bug report.
00:05:21 <alise> pikhq: Oh well; it's not like you need the latest Seamonkey to be happy.
00:05:42 <alise> Actually using 95 in a VM made me, for a split second, consider continuing to use it. It's that enamouring.
00:05:51 <pikhq> It was dropped in Seamonkey 2.0.
00:06:00 <alise> How recent is that?
00:06:03 <Sgeo> Is Win95 actually that great, or just the visual style?
00:06:12 <alise> Sgeo: The visual style is utterly irrelevant.
00:06:15 <alise> I am talking solely about usability.
00:06:28 <pikhq> alise: Nearly a year ago.
00:06:50 <alise> pikhq: Well, I did consider working on a new browser for it...
00:06:51 <pikhq> 1.1.19 is the last version to support 95, and was released in March of this year.
00:07:01 <alise> pikhq: Based on WebKit. Which I deluded myself into believing might work on 95.
00:07:04 <pikhq> End of life for the 1.x line.
00:07:08 <alise> March 2010, you could get worse.
00:07:12 <alise> I'm sure it could be forked easily enough.
00:08:14 <alise> Nathan does have a few misconceptions about Linux, though...
00:08:15 <alise> "From a users standpoint, built in drivers means you usually will not be able to make use of newly released hardware until the needed software is added to your Linux distribution, at which point you usually must upgrade the entire operating system to the latest version. (In contrast I just installed a driver for an SATA controller on Windows 95!) On the brighter side you won't have to hunt down and manually install dozens of separate drivers."
00:08:20 <alise> But he makes up for it in PURE AWESOME.
00:08:31 <pikhq> Of course, you could just build a browser on Cygwin.
00:08:40 <alise> pikhq: Oh yeah... Cairo on X.
00:08:52 <alise> pikhq: Does Firefox build in Cygwin?
00:09:11 <alise> pikhq: Then... you're sorted.
00:09:48 <pikhq> Opera *still supports 95*.
00:10:05 <pikhq> They dropped support for NT 4, but not 95.
00:10:05 <alise> I used 9 though, I think, not 10.
00:10:11 <alise> 10 was sluggish. I /was/ in a VM, though.
00:10:30 <alise> pikhq: The major complaint I had after a few days of using Windows 95: "I can't flick my mouse into the bottom-left corner and click to open the Start menu, as the buttons ends before the bottom-left pixel."
00:11:05 <alise> Quite purifying, when your only complaint is a simple violation of Fitt's law.
00:11:15 <alise> I was even considering writing a program that fucked with the taskbar to make it work...
00:11:20 <alise> ...try doing that on Windows 7 :P
00:11:30 <alise> "Also, the clock defaults to that weird 24 hour time." -- Nathan ;; wat
00:12:06 <pikhq> OpenOffice also dropped support for 95.
00:12:14 <pikhq> Who needs that, though?
00:12:15 <alise> pikhq: Nowt wrong with OpenOffice 2.
00:12:34 <alise> Nowt wrong with OpenOffice 1 :P
00:12:38 <alise> pikhq: You could just use Word 97.
00:13:31 <pikhq> And Qt 4 no longer supports 95 at all.
00:14:05 <alise> pikhq: And Windows 95 doesn't support Windows 7!
00:14:32 <pikhq> Okay, Windows 2000 is the least bloated Windows that programs still support.
00:14:45 <alise> pikhq: BTW, I'm pretty sure that with the patch thing, 95 supports up to a gigabyte of RAM.
00:15:00 <alise> You can tweak a value to expand that, it seems.
00:15:10 <alise> So you should be able to max out 32-bit address space, more or less.
00:15:23 <alise> pikhq: You mean, "Windows 2000 is the least bloated Windows that *the wrong* programs support." ;)
00:15:49 <pikhq> alise: What patch, pray tell?
00:15:56 <alise> pikhq: It's included on the CD version.
00:16:29 <alise> pikhq: The tweak is just fucking with Vcache.
00:16:37 <alise> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/253912
00:16:58 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, you can't say it doesn't support these applications.
00:21:46 <alise> pikhq: You've got me thinking about Windows now; not good for my mental health.
00:21:54 <alise> ais523: I will really support that appeal now.
00:23:11 <pikhq> alise: Now program for it!
00:23:21 <alise> pikhq: Windows 95 programming? Sounds fun!
00:23:36 <alise> You can do anything! Anything! The only limit ... is yourself. Welcome, to Win32!
00:23:41 <alise> zombo.com --> win32.com
00:23:59 <alise> lol, it redirects to http://www.bing.com/search?q=win32&form=MSSRPD
00:24:24 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_API
00:24:26 <alise> You could use this!
00:25:21 <pikhq> alise: Not on Win95.
00:25:53 -!- augur has joined.
00:34:19 * alise searches for that screenshot of 95's explorer on XP
00:36:54 <alise> http://www.pu7o.org/pix/nt4sh_xp.png
00:36:59 <alise> Windows NT 4's explorer.exe
00:37:02 <alise> on Windows XP Professional.
00:37:15 <alise> pikhq: Now give me a single reason why this should not always be so.
00:37:41 <pikhq> Blackbox for Windows.
00:37:57 <pikhq> Yes, that Blackbox.
00:38:37 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, I know.
00:38:39 <alise> It's quite popular.
00:38:49 <alise> pikhq: Now look at my screenshot and gaze.
00:39:18 <pikhq> alise: The beauty of it.
00:39:30 <alise> pikhq: Should have sent a poet.
00:39:37 <alise> NOW LET'S BE POETS (Translation: NOW LET'S MAKE THIS WORK)
00:39:53 <pikhq> It's Windows without the crap.
00:39:59 <alise> Well, no, not quite. But close.
00:40:14 <pikhq> Okay, it's Windows XP without the PAIN AND AGONY
00:43:07 <alise> pikhq: Now imagine that on Windows 2000.
00:43:16 <alise> pikhq: With everything stripped out.
00:43:34 <pikhq> alise: I'll have to try it.
00:43:51 <alise> pikhq: Yes. When I produce it!
00:43:57 <alise> (YOU WILL BE CRUSHED)
00:45:01 <alise> pikhq: A thing that saddens me: The Alpha, MIPS and PowerPC releases of NT 4.0 didn't support the GUI.
00:45:13 * Sgeo goes to install Flashblock
00:45:25 <Sgeo> Wait, Flashblock on Chromium only hides the Flash, right
00:45:38 <pikhq> No, it now stops it from starting.
00:45:41 <alise> pikhq: http://www.pu7o.org/_pvt/nt4explorer.zip
00:45:47 <alise> pikhq: NT 4.0 explorer, packaged for Windows XP.
00:46:06 <pikhq> alise: Okay, I'll want to slipstream that SOB.
00:46:26 <alise> pikhq: Mine will be at LEAST a byte shorter than yours. FOREVER
00:46:45 <alise> pikhq: OMG IT RUNS IN WINE.
00:46:47 <alise> Sorry, let me repeat:
00:46:50 <alise> It fucking runs in WINE.
00:47:00 <alise> So I can't see my cursor but IT RUNS IN WINE.
00:48:04 <alise> wine: cannot find L"C:\\windows\\system32\\Welcome.exe"
00:48:57 <Sgeo> Ooh, Welcome.exe
00:49:15 <Sgeo> I loved the propaganda that was included with various versions of Windows
00:49:16 <alise> pikhq: I was just about to brag about how amazing my MicroXP would be, but then I realised that you'd just STEAL the ideas like a dirty THIEF.
00:49:30 <alise> pikhq: I need an NDA.
00:49:40 <Sgeo> And also loved the short videos for WinXP before WinXP was released
00:49:47 <Sgeo> Any of those still available somewhere?
00:50:06 <Gregor> <alise> pikhq: A thing that saddens me: The Alpha, MIPS and PowerPC releases of NT 4.0 didn't support the GUI. // ???
00:50:20 <alise> Gregor: There were releases of Windows NT 4.0 for those architectures.
00:50:26 <alise> They did not have the Windows user interface, just the command line.
00:50:31 <alise> It would be awesome if they did have it.
00:50:34 <Gregor> ... wtfbbq, didn't know that :P
00:50:39 <alise> Gregor: Well, I /may/ be wrong.
00:50:42 <alise> But I'm pretty sure I'm not.
00:50:57 <Sgeo> alise, ty. Although I don't particularly appreciate the way you wrote youtube
00:51:23 <alise> Jewtube, jewnicode, jew reptilian new world order...
00:51:31 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aO0jumwHdg
00:51:49 <Sgeo> Dammit, YouTube's being crap
00:53:17 <alise> How to sell Office XP: Sex. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue_ShKRAqNo
00:53:35 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm4LMlWohY4&feature=related
00:54:38 <alise> Gregor: The perfect name for an Alpha, MIPS or PowerPC box running NT 4.0: "Ivory Tower"
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00:55:25 <quintopia> I can think of better OS's to fit that name...
00:55:35 <quintopia> namely ones that have never been commercially sold
00:55:37 <alise> OSes, yes, but not OSes on such obscure platforms that nobody ever used themo n.
00:56:41 <alise> pikhq: BTW, don't bother including *any* web browser.
00:56:45 <alise> You need nothing else.
00:56:54 <Sgeo> ....so what's being sold is being _unable_ to take the bra off?
00:57:01 <alise> Sgeo: Without the password!
00:57:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:57:51 <pikhq> alise: Who needs ftp?
00:57:57 <alise> pikhq: No. No. You need ftp.
00:57:59 <pikhq> You've got a disc drive, right?
00:58:02 <alise> It comes bundled with the other stuff.
00:58:08 <alise> The other basic command-line tools.
00:58:11 <alise> Sure, you COULD specifically exclude it...
00:58:15 <alise> ...but it's kilobytes.
00:58:54 <Sgeo> "$2.99 per minute, unless you're a fast talker, then it's $4.99 per minute"
00:59:32 <alise> pikhq: http://sillydog.org/graph/ss/others/applecomauredirect.png
00:59:43 <alise> Apple: it runs on Perl.
00:59:54 <alise> Ugly Perl, at that! Oh the irony!
01:00:12 <alise> "asia red". Sounds like a codename.
01:00:20 <Sgeo> Oooooooooooooooh, Windows XP!
01:02:36 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc.
01:02:58 <Sgeo> "I will not have this courtroom turn into a commercial for this 'Windows XP'"
01:10:40 <Sgeo> One of the XPTV things
01:10:59 <alise> The VinylDisc is a combination of a digital layer, either in CD or DVD format, and an analogue layer, which is a vinyl record, developed by German company Optimal Media Production. It consists of a silver layer containing CD or DVD and a black polyvinyl chloride layer (able to hold 3.5 minutes of audio on 33rpm) which can be played on a regular phonograph.
01:11:03 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VinylDisc
01:11:45 <Sgeo> coppro, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuTzpbur5zw&feature=related
01:15:06 <alise> I love how it can only hold 3.5 minutes.
01:15:08 <Gregor> Because it's probably expensive and has no benefits.
01:15:24 <alise> I could see pretentious IDM-type groups releasing albums in it.
01:15:29 <alise> Or at least singles.
01:15:32 <alise> But not 3.5 minutes.
01:16:34 <alise> Gregor: Do YOU know when Astronomy Picture of the Day updates?
01:16:46 <Sgeo> It's the perfect medium! Anyone can use it, even if they haven't purchased any new technology in the last 2(?) decades!
01:17:00 <alise> Like the moon landings.
01:17:14 <alise> I can't believe CDs are less than 30 years old >__>
01:17:20 <alise> They've been ubiquitous since I was born!
01:17:24 <alise> Before that, even!
01:17:53 <Gregor> I had casettes when I was a kid, but I think CDs were already out there, just not ubiquitous.
01:18:09 <alise> Cassettes where what Those Old Albums were on.
01:18:26 <alise> Actually every time I think "cassette", R.E.M. - Document's cassette release appears in my head.
01:20:12 <Gregor> I think that DAT tapes still get more bits/dollar than most other forms of storage ...
01:21:22 <Gregor> I guess hard disks are (finally) past that, but they weren't until a few years ago :P
01:21:58 <alise> My father uses/used DAT tapes extensively to record concerts. (officially, that is.)
01:22:16 <alise> His stereo is... hefty, and the speakers are mounted on the walls.
01:23:33 * Sgeo still has a bit of a hard time realizing just how little 1GB is these days
01:24:27 <alise> Gregor: 8 GB/$ means $79.99 buys you 639.92 GBs.
01:24:36 <alise> It is actually the price of a 1.5TB hard disk.
01:24:45 <alise> So yeah, disks have won.
01:25:07 <alise> You can get a terabyte for *sixty fucking dollars*! Not $69.99 either; $59.99.
01:25:13 <alise> That's a THOUSAND GODDAMN GIGABYTES
01:25:48 <alise> <alise> Gregor: 8 GB/$ means $79.99 buys you 639.92 GBs.
01:25:48 <alise> <alise> It is actually the price of a 1.5TB hard disk.
01:25:48 <Gregor> Yeah, looks like a 1.5TB tape is about $100
01:25:57 <alise> wait, this may be google interpreting megabytes as mebibytes
01:26:08 <alise> Gregor: also, disks win at actually being used too :-P
01:26:11 <Sgeo> Until you drop one
01:26:16 <Gregor> Well, tapes aren't random-access.
01:27:29 <alise> Sgeo: unless you drop one in a bad laptop without automatic drive-head parking
01:27:38 <alise> and then leave it there to mature without rescuing it
01:28:13 <Gregor> Shipping to California – Please Read
01:28:13 <Gregor> Unfortunately we are unable to ship this product directly into the State of California. This particular product will need to ship to our Austin, Texas warehouse first. We will then immediately re-ship the product to you. You will not be charged for additional shipping. This will add 2-3 business days onto to delivery of your order. Customers shipping to other states are not affected.
01:28:25 <alise> xD Where's that from?
01:28:33 <Gregor> http://www.tapeandmedia.com/sony_lto_5_tape_ultrium_5_tapes.asp?source=Froogle&REFERER=Froogle
01:29:13 <alise> "Unfortunately, the usual to-California transit checks for trace amounts of cocaine, included as a gift in all our products. Also swan remains, used in the production of the tape."
01:29:23 <alise> "Also human baby remains."
01:29:28 <alise> "Also innocent kittens."
01:29:39 <Gregor> "And a few less-innocent kittens."
01:29:50 <Gregor> Oh BTW I apparently am capable of writing a JIT.
01:30:06 <alise> I am capable of love.
01:30:12 <alise> But only on Tuesdays ;____;
01:30:16 <alise> And only for a Turing machine
01:30:19 <alise> A dead Turing machine
01:31:17 <alise> Gregor: did you know that it's impossible to move your index finger around in a circle?
01:32:36 <alise> Gregor: ...really? I was just bullshitting you so I could waste your precious time and brain energy.
01:32:48 <alise> This is like when I told someone that "gullible" wasn't in the dictionary and it *actually wasn't*.
01:33:30 <Gregor> Idonno, my circle seems extremely imperfect :P
01:33:58 <alise> Gregor: Hmm, it appears to also be impossible with the thumb.
01:34:14 <Gregor> Even more impossible with the thumb.
01:38:48 <alise> It's easy with the thumb
01:38:55 <alise> Gregor: Did you know that Google is DOWN???
01:39:25 <Gregor> You realize I used it like ten minutes ago to find that tape, right? :P
01:40:10 <Sgeo> How much does a Google cost? My techie friend said that I should use Googles.
01:44:25 <Sgeo> What if I get hit on the head and lose my intellect?
01:44:40 * Sgeo wants to wear a helmet
01:53:02 * pikhq shall go ahead and create the Win2k-minus-everything disk
01:53:32 <pikhq> Features have *got* to go.
01:54:04 * Sgeo will be rewatching SGU "Light" in a few seconds
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02:04:55 <pikhq> Win2k-minux-everything, 183MB.
02:25:12 <Gregor> Oh, s/minux/minus/? :P
02:26:13 <Gregor> I thought this was the worst hybrid OS idea in history :P
02:26:14 <Gregor> Win2k, minix and Linux or something
02:27:00 <pikhq> That would be freakish.
02:27:05 <pikhq> Amazing, but freakish.
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03:36:34 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Win2K sucks less.
03:38:02 <Mathnerd314> I find that difficult to believe... does win98 suck even less?
03:39:16 <Mathnerd314> so the curve of suckiness is something like \--\_/--/, with win2K in the middle?
03:39:38 <pikhq> Except that Win95 is quite lacking in suck.
03:39:59 <pikhq> (not having a lot of stuff lets it not have a lot of suck)
03:40:36 <pikhq> Though before Win95 sucked assloads.
03:42:22 <pikhq> Aye, ME sucked maximally.
03:42:37 <pikhq> You can't make an OS suck more and not get sued for fraud.
03:43:13 <Mathnerd314> did you see that ad with Windows Vista = Windows CE + Windows ME + Windows NT = Windows Cement?
03:49:54 <Sgeo> Awesome. Flashblock managed to crash
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04:16:57 <Gregor> Because ABP is more useful.
04:17:19 <Gregor> NoScript is just stupidly extreme. ABP is directed, surgical.
04:34:40 <pikhq> Rather, I hate all limits that cannot be computed obviously or via l'Hôpital's rule. Monsters.
04:40:22 <Gregor> I've always seen it as l'Hospital's rule.
04:40:30 <Gregor> Which I love, because it's "the hospital's rule"
04:45:40 <Mathnerd314> Gregor: ABP is slower to use. You can't do "1-click site blocking/unblocking"
04:46:07 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: is this for a class? if so, what is it called?
04:47:27 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Calculus III
04:47:38 <pikhq> We had two problems doing limits of a vector function.
04:47:46 <pikhq> I was reminded that I despise limits.
04:48:08 <Mathnerd314> limits are fun :-) you use them all the time in analysis
04:51:29 <pikhq> Now, derivatives. There's something I can get behind.
04:53:45 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: reals can be defined as the limit of a sequence of rational numbers.
04:56:28 <Mathnerd314> if that doesn't excite you, then probably nothing will
04:59:33 <Sgeo> Why must Flash crash all the time?
04:59:35 <pikhq> Everyone knows the only reals that exist are computable!
04:59:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Adobe sucks.
05:07:04 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: ok, the limit of computable sequences of rational numbers
05:08:52 <Mathnerd314> computable sequences aren't too hard to define; something like "successive terms can be output by a Turing machine"
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05:59:16 <ais523> pikhq: *Macromedia sucks?
05:59:33 <ais523> as far as I know, Flash hasn't been rewritten, and you have to blame the original authors of the codebase to some extent
06:31:48 <Sgeo> :( at how much memory and CPU Factor was using
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06:41:44 <Vorpal> <Mathnerd314> limits are fun :-) you use them all the time in analysis <-- analysis is meh. Discrete math ftw!
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14:02:09 <Vorpal> 98% packet loss.... how fun. To master DNS server.
14:02:34 <Vorpal> so I can't even update the domain to take the other server that went down out of round robin
14:04:17 <Vorpal> nooga, now you made me consider a esolang where everything were names of rivers (and perhaps also other geographical features)
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15:24:13 <nooga> http://gopherwoodstudios.com/entanglement/ made an esolang based on that
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16:14:06 <alise> 18:04:55 <pikhq> Win2k-minux-everything, 183MB.
16:18:32 <alise> pikhq: Can you get nLite working in WINE?
16:34:49 <Vorpal> alise, 183 MB is rather large yeah
16:36:39 <alise> Vorpal: I got an uber-minimal, stripped-down XP ISO into like 200.
16:36:50 <alise> With 2000 and the complete eradication of IE components...
16:36:57 <alise> Well! I think I can significantly beat that figure.
16:37:07 <alise> Almost nothing supports XP and not 2000, anyway.
16:37:09 <alise> Even Chrome works.
16:37:21 <alise> Vorpal: You can run NT 4.0's Explorer on XP. Seriously.
16:37:26 <alise> Vorpal: http://www.pu7o.org/pix/nt4sh_xp.png
16:37:51 <alise> And font smoothing, too!
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16:57:45 <alise> http://www.hpcfactor.com/support/patching/win2000/
16:57:48 <alise> WHY ARE THERE SO MANY PATCHES
17:00:02 <Vorpal> alise, hm windows update needs IE iirc?
17:00:14 <alise> http://windizupdate.com/
17:00:28 <alise> Vorpal: besides, i don't know if windows update works with 2000
17:00:32 <alise> it's all patch installation files
17:00:40 <alise> and maybe IE updates, but I'm cutting out IE
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17:10:39 <Gregor> alise: That's pretty lurvely.
17:14:36 <alise> Gregor: Windiz Update?
17:17:55 <alise> Gregor: Or, NT shell on 2000.
17:20:36 <alise> Gregor: "If it doesn't fit on an original zip drive, it's not worth having."
17:20:55 <Gregor> If it doesn't fit on a superformatted floppy, it's not worth having.
17:22:28 <alise> Gregor: I reject that goal as being too difficult.
17:24:42 <alise> Whoa, Win2k has a fit when detecting graphics hardware.
17:24:51 <alise> "Try resolution... back to the setup! Try resolution... back to the setup!"
17:24:55 <alise> And my VM window jiggles about with its size.
17:25:07 <alise> Really quickly, too.
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17:26:44 <alise> pikhq: STRIP EVERY LOCALE
17:26:46 <alise> STRIP EVERY KEYBOARD LAYOUT
17:27:04 <alise> STRIP PER (Phantom Edition Recall-files)
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17:35:00 <alise> Gregor: Windows 2000 Professional: It starts in 16 colours!
17:35:16 <alise> Dalalalalalalalala WUM de dum duuuuuuuum
17:35:54 <alise> Gregor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFkry3zzutI
17:36:29 <alise> Gregor: Note: Also the Me startup sound.
17:37:32 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu0TMtgx1pE ;; Wow, the NT ones were fucking crazy.
17:37:44 <alise> The whole thing becomes some sort of crazy-dynamiced electronic piece.
17:39:20 <alise> With a weird ambientish piece in the middle with the Windows 98 sounds.
17:39:30 <alise> Gregor: Haha wow, 2000 Beta 3's is actually dramatic.
17:39:34 <alise> (2 minutes 40 seconds or thereabouts)
17:40:43 <Vorpal> alise, I'm trying to design a "sane" ISA. Like a replacement for x86-64. Purely for recreational purposes, since it is unlikely to ever be implemented. A question: big or little endian?
17:40:53 <Vorpal> any suggestions for that? And reason for that
17:41:22 <Vorpal> alise, interesting. Why do you suggest that?
17:41:24 <alise> reason: you can make an N-bit number bigger just by appending
17:41:33 <Vorpal> ah. Yes that is a good reason
17:41:35 <alise> which is pleasing from a theoretical aesthetics point of view, for one
17:41:39 <alise> as well as possibly being quite useful
17:41:49 <alise> also, you can easily imagine an addition algorithm on it stepping through bit by bit
17:41:55 <alise> which is only pleasing in an aesthetic sense, but it's still nice
17:42:15 <alise> Vorpal: also: go for CISC, if you're trying to reproduce such a "rich" feature set
17:42:23 <alise> it /does/ have its advantages over RISC.
17:42:27 <alise> despite the propaganda :)
17:42:37 <Vorpal> alise, I decided for memory mapped registers. And making page 0 physically unmappable (providing not just a guaranteed "safe" NULL, but also 8191 other "special" "safe" values)
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17:42:57 <alise> Vorpal: memory map the registers in page 0
17:43:19 <alise> Vorpal: i suggest reserving about 8-16 pages for the system
17:43:22 <alise> including hardware
17:43:28 <alise> for instance, for graphics cards and the like
17:43:47 <alise> 16 pages would be nice, since that's a round megabyte
17:43:53 <alise> assuming 64-bit values
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17:44:50 <alise> VBEMP NT edition, woo hoo!
17:45:46 <alise> Why must it be distributed in a zip :P
17:46:31 <alise> "In the early roadmap for Neptune's development there was one service pack planned, codenamed Triton."
17:46:36 <alise> Planning for bugfix updates: lol
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17:48:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Assuming you were giving them for free, which it might not be.
17:49:03 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> alise, I was planning to go for CRISC. "Complicated RISC". Yes it sounds like a paradox but I have some ideas
17:49:07 <Vorpal> alise, those went missing
17:49:30 <Vorpal> alise, and yes these upper pages also includes MMU registers and more
17:49:43 <alise> CRISC just sounds like VLIW.
17:49:55 <Vorpal> alise, the upper 16 KiB btw
17:49:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Precisely.
17:50:10 <alise> reserving 16 pages should be a megabyte
17:50:19 <Vorpal> alise, what is page size?
17:50:29 <alise> Vorpal: you said page 0 gave 8192 reserved values
17:50:34 <alise> I assumed 8192*8 bytes
17:50:50 <Vorpal> well, 8192 is one possible page size
17:51:02 <alise> hmm actually i'd reserve more
17:51:04 <Vorpal> alise, the OS is supposed to read that from a control register during boot
17:51:12 <alise> pointless configurability
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17:51:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, make the OS be entirely configurable through XML!
17:51:47 <Vorpal> anyway 8192*8 is a bit too large
17:51:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, har har
17:51:57 <alise> Vorpal: but hardware would use this too
17:52:17 <Vorpal> alise, also I considered the variable page size thing found not just on x86 but iirc also PPC and SPARC
17:52:20 <alise> so actually i'd probably reserve maybe 512 pages of 8192 (64-bit)s
17:52:24 <alise> that's 32 mebibytes
17:52:26 <alise> enough for anyone ;)
17:52:31 <alise> ehh, maybe hardware should reserve its own pages
17:52:37 <alise> since you could have a huge graphics display
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17:52:45 <alise> so scratch that idea, just reserve 8 pages or so for the CPU
17:52:57 <Vorpal> alise, so maybe supporting 4096 bytes, 4 MB and and 32 MB sized pages might be a good idea
17:53:03 <alise> Vorpal: support 2^n for all n
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17:53:08 <alise> it won't get implemented anyway
17:53:11 <Vorpal> alise, also 8 pages isn't enough
17:53:17 <alise> it is for the cpu itself
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17:55:37 <alise> other hardware could allocate its own pages
17:55:41 <alise> in the upper region of memory
17:55:52 <Vorpal> alise, well okay for page sizes what about: 4096 by default. Hardware could support huge pages, check control registers for that.
17:55:54 <alise> (much more durable than in lower region)
17:56:02 <alise> Vorpal: 4096 64-bit values, I assume?
17:56:02 <Vorpal> alise, since huge-pages do have some merits
17:56:12 <alise> also, how about this: no pages
17:56:16 <Vorpal> alise, hm, rather large page size?
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17:57:46 <Vorpal> alise, I do plan on keeping 8 bit char. And some support for mov to read/write 8, 16 and 32 bits. Probably not for any other instructions (those would be pure 64 bit register operations mostly)
17:57:50 <alise> no pages at all. think about it
17:58:38 <Vorpal> alise, sure, perfect for your OS. "Reasonably plausible one could port linux or similar to it" was in my plans for this
17:59:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nice but conflicts with my design goals
17:59:26 <alise> Vorpal: basically you're inventing something like Itanium but more boring
17:59:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, if your design goals and LoseThos' conflict, yours are wrong.
18:00:10 <Vorpal> alise, I did say '[...] "sane" ISA. Like a replacement for x86-64.'
18:00:24 <Vorpal> alise, I was just asking about the endianness issue really
18:01:07 <Vorpal> alise, and yes hardware should be able to pick own ranges. After all you would want to put any on-graphics-card RAM into your address space.
18:01:59 <alise> Vorpal: forbid hardware allocating a page above a certain number
18:02:03 <alise> perhaps restrict it all to negative addresses, for instance
18:02:04 <Vorpal> alise, but fixed places work fine for "standard" stuff like CPU registers, MMU control bits, system timer access, and some similar stuff
18:02:13 <alise> so that page 1 -- page (a lot) can all be software controlled
18:02:20 <alise> forbid as in at the cpu level
18:02:30 <alise> i wanna run Hurd on Itanium sometime :-D
18:02:34 <Vorpal> alise, well I was considering putting kernel there (below cpu registers). I find that idea done by AMD was rather nice.
18:02:45 <alise> nah, no reason to have kernel there
18:02:50 <alise> just have it in low finite address space
18:03:31 <alise> anyway, are you sure linux requires paging? ucLinux
18:03:42 <Vorpal> ab... where a is the sign bit, negative would be hardware as you suggest. the next bit is kernel/userspace. So 01... = kernel, 00... = userspace, 1... = hardware
18:03:58 <Vorpal> with 64-bit addresses that wouldn't cut away much after all
18:04:21 <alise> you don't really need a concept of kernel
18:04:21 <Vorpal> alise, and uclinux is not real linux, it is a separate project. Based on linux yes
18:04:23 <alise> it can handle its own
18:04:46 <Vorpal> alise, maybe add that as a suggestion simply.
18:05:29 <Vorpal> alise, I planned to put the IP at 0xfffffffffffffff8-0xffffffffffffffff (I sure hope I didn't make an off by 1 error here)
18:05:41 <Vorpal> alise, hm variable length instructions or fixed length?
18:05:49 <Vorpal> both have their merits
18:05:54 <alise> err, just put the ip in one of the 8 reserved CPU pages
18:05:56 <alise> more than enough space there
18:06:08 <Vorpal> alise, well that is in one of them?
18:06:18 <alise> the 8 reserved cpu pages are starting at 0 in what i was thinking
18:06:23 <alise> that is, you wouldn't just reserve page 0 for null
18:06:26 <alise> you'd reserve pages 1-7 too
18:06:34 <alise> like ip, registers,
18:06:44 <Vorpal> alise, hm... and leaving the address 0 doing nothing?
18:06:47 <alise> (8 is more than enough, but you know, leaves expansion room)
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18:06:55 <alise> Vorpal: yes. possibly trap it in the memory interface
18:06:58 <alise> and flag up an error
18:07:01 <alise> like everything else does
18:07:12 <alise> it wouldn't even go to the memory interface
18:07:18 <alise> since it'd go straight to the cpu to look up a register or whatever
18:07:23 <alise> and it could just barf if it gets 0
18:07:28 <Vorpal> alise, interesting but the disadvantage is that sometimes you don't get a true NULL dereference. Consider struct->somememeber; where struct is a NULL pointer
18:07:43 <Vorpal> and somemember is not the first one
18:07:45 <alise> that dereferences struct first, obviously
18:08:02 <alise> Vorpal: well, that'd misbehave, sure
18:08:06 <alise> but it misbehaves on current hardware too
18:08:09 <alise> Vorpal: one solution would be:
18:08:11 <alise> have page 0 completely empty
18:08:14 <alise> and only use pages 1-7 for internal stuff
18:08:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Itanium is Intel's superarchitecture that went wrong, isn't it?
18:08:21 <alise> that way, unless your structure is ridiculously big, it'll be trapped
18:08:21 <Vorpal> alise, well yes and no. Linux forbids a few pages at the bottom due to this
18:08:28 <Vorpal> alise, that sounds reasonably safe
18:08:34 <alise> one page should be enough, assuming it's big enough
18:08:36 <alise> 8192 bytes or more
18:08:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yeah
18:09:19 <Vorpal> alise, where to put system clock and such? Around CPU registers or somewhere in negative hardware range
18:09:37 <alise> around cpu registers, might as well
18:10:15 <alise> Vorpal: if you have each be 8192 64-bit values, i.e. 8192*8 bytes, then pages 1-7 get you 448 kibibytes
18:10:23 <alise> more than enough to stuff any damn extension you can think of in a lifetime
18:10:28 <alise> (yeah, yeah, "should be enough for everyone")
18:10:41 <alise> (but you can always start using the high range and pretend to be a piece of hardware if you somehow run out of all that)
18:10:54 <Vorpal> alise, I think that might be too large to be useful. 8192 bytes seems better
18:11:08 <Vorpal> alise, you could get some memory fragmentation issues with too large pages
18:11:24 <alise> fine, make it one 448 kibibyte page :)
18:11:35 <Vorpal> and that is constrained by physical RAM, not virtual address space
18:11:45 <Vorpal> alise, I meant, too large page size :P
18:11:58 <alise> Vorpal: just split it up into more pages, then
18:12:03 <alise> and come up with some sort of organisation
18:12:13 <alise> Registers & Counters
18:12:19 <alise> has registers, carry flag and the like, and IP
18:12:30 <Vorpal> and something like that. Maybe reserve 512 KiB at the start. 448 seems so uneven
18:12:36 <alise> Vorpal: it's 512 KiB
18:12:40 <alise> i was counting page 0 as reserved
18:12:42 <Vorpal> ah yeah with null page
18:12:46 <alise> reserved to always barf, that is
18:12:51 <alise> so that'd become a few reserved pages, but whatever
18:13:08 <alise> (if you do foo->x where foo is null and the structure is bigger than 8 kibibytes, you deserve whatever you get)
18:16:44 <Vorpal> alise, negative is 0x8000000000000000-0xffffffffffffffff right?
18:16:50 <Vorpal> unless I miscalculated
18:17:18 <alise> i try not to think about such concrete things
18:19:37 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000000000 - 0x0000000000002000 Illegal memory, will cause a page fault
18:19:37 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000002001 - 0x0000000000080000 IDCR (ISA-Defined Control Registers)
18:19:37 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000080000 - 0x7fffffffffffffff Normal address space.
18:19:37 <Vorpal> 0x8000000000000000 - 0xffffffffffffffff HMA (Hardware Mapped Memory)
18:19:40 <Vorpal> alise, I think that is right
18:19:50 <alise> why not vliw? too cool for you? :P
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18:20:07 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000080000 -> 0x0000000000080001
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18:20:22 <Vorpal> alise, wait a second, or am I off by one in the other direction
18:21:24 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000000000 - 0x0000000000001fff Illegal memory, will cause a page fault
18:21:25 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000002000 - 0x000000000007ffff IDCR (ISA-Defined Control Registers)
18:21:25 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000080000 - 0x7fffffffffffffff Normal address space.
18:21:25 <Vorpal> 0x8000000000000000 - 0xffffffffffffffff HMA (Hardware Mapped Memory)
18:21:50 <Vorpal> alise, as for VLIW. Could it actually work well?
18:22:05 <alise> Sure; well, as well as your crazy CRISC thing would.
18:22:17 <alise> Itanium's suckage was mostly Intel being fucktards and nobody else giving a shit.
18:22:21 <Vorpal> alise, you haven't seen the instruction set yet (and I haven't written that down yet)
18:22:48 <Vorpal> alise, wasn't there a problem with writing compilers for VLIW iirc?
18:22:49 <alise> Vorpal: The main issue with VLIW is compiling for it.
18:22:55 <alise> You can easily do it; it's efficiency that's the issue.
18:22:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought Itanium's suckage was down do the impossibility of compiling to it?
18:23:04 <alise> Just not a totally solved problem yet ;)
18:23:18 <alise> Transmeta addresses this issue by including a binary-to-binary software compiler layer (termed Code Morphing) in their Crusoe implementation of the x86 architecture. Basically, this mechanism is advertised to recompile, optimize, and translate x86 opcodes at runtime into the CPU's internal machine code. Thus, the Transmeta chip is internally a VLIW processor, effectively decoupled from the x86 CISC instruction set that it executes.
18:23:44 <alise> Intel's Itanium architecture (among others) solved the backward-compatibility problem with a more general mechanism. Within each of the multiple-opcode instructions, a bit field is allocated to denote dependency on the previous VLIW instruction within the program instruction stream. These bits are set at compile time, thus relieving the hardware from calculating this dependency information. Having this dependency information encoded into the instruction st
18:23:44 <alise> ream allows wider implementations to issue multiple non-dependent VLIW instructions in parallel per cycle, while narrower implementations would issue a smaller number of VLIW instructions per cycle.
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18:24:01 <alise> Another perceived deficiency of VLIW architectures is the code bloat that occurs when not all of the execution units have useful work to do and thus have to execute NOPs. This occurs when there are dependencies in the code and the functional pipelines must be allowed to drain before subsequent operations can proceed.
18:24:01 <alise> Since the number of transistors on a chip has grown, the perceived disadvantages of the VLIW have diminished in importance. The VLIW architecture is growing in popularity, particularly in the embedded market, where it is possible to customize a processor for an application in an embedded system-on-a-chip. Embedded VLIW products are available from several vendors, including the FR-V from Fujitsu, the BSP15/16 from Pixelworks, the ST231 from STMicroelectroni
18:24:01 <alise> cs, the TriMedia from NXP, the CEVA-X DSP from CEVA, the Jazz DSP from Improv Systems, and Silicon Hive. The Texas Instruments TMS320 DSP line has evolved, in its C6xxx family, to look more like a VLIW, in contrast to the earlier C5xxx family.
18:26:23 <Vorpal> ...... what a strawman
18:26:54 <alise> http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Sophisticated-and-Cultured-Male
18:27:11 <fizzie> I don't quite see how much more like a VLIW C64xx could look; although it is sort of "optionally VLIW", in that it reads in 8-15 instruction packets, and then those are split to units of 1-8 simultaneously executed ops.
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18:29:18 <fizzie> From what I understand, the "efficiently compiling" problem there is sort-of solved by the fact that it does DSP, so it usually involves doing the same thing to many numbers, which tends to be easy to parallelize. (And of course people do bother to hand-craft assembly too. I don't have any first-hand experience as to how good TI's C compiler is.)
18:29:45 <fizzie> (It costs quite a lot, so presumably it must be good.)
18:30:06 <fizzie> ((Okay, so it's not really *that* expensive; four digits in $s, not more than that.))
18:44:47 <alise> You may disable WFP by setting the value SFCDisable (REG_DWORD) in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\ SOFTWARE\ Microsoft\ Windows NT\ CurrentVersion\ Winlogon. By default, SFCDisable is set to 0, which means WFP is active. Setting SFCDisable to 1 will disable WFP. Setting SFCDisable to 2 will disable WFP for the next system restart only (without a prompt to re-enable).
18:44:47 <alise> Important: You must have a kernel debugger attached to the system via null modem cable (for example:I386kd.exe or Windbg.exe) to use SFCDisable = 1 or SFCDisable = 2.
18:45:29 <Vorpal> alise, what is WFP/SFC?
18:45:35 <alise> Windows File Protection
18:45:38 <alise> stops you fucking with shit
18:46:02 <alise> as a coprophiliac, I would like to fuck with Windows' shit
18:46:06 <alise> and thus would like it to go away
18:46:37 <Vorpal> alise, arguably it is a good feature, should result in less support calls for microsoft...
18:46:51 <Vorpal> but yeah easier to turn off.... perhaps
18:46:53 <alise> Vorpal: it already hides all the windows directories
18:46:59 <alise> and makes you click a link to show them
18:47:02 <alise> Vorpal: oh, this is only for windows 2000
18:47:09 <alise> i think the only way to disable it in XP onwards is to use hacks
18:47:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, coprophiliac: one who enjoys fucking with shit.
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18:47:13 <alise> patched DLLs, etc.
18:47:25 <pikhq> fizzie: Of course, the "efficiently compiling" thing is as opposed to having the CPU pipeline efficiently.
18:47:38 <alise> Coprophilia (from Greek κόπρος, kópros—excrement and φιλία, filía—liking, fondness), also called scatophilia or scat,[1] is the paraphilia involving sexual pleasure from feces.[2][3]
18:47:48 <alise> That is, to enjoy fucking shit.
18:55:15 <alise> pikhq: btw, windows 2000 may depend on ie in strange ways.
18:55:27 <alise> being that it is really the first member in the XP What the Fuck IE Abuse family.
18:56:58 <alise> pikhq: also, TELL ME HOW TO FUCKING DISABLE WFP IN 2000 I CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT
18:57:05 <alise> that is, permanently, without any serial port connected
18:57:57 <alise> Windows File Protection
18:58:02 <alise> is stopping me putting the NT4 explorer in there
18:58:20 <alise> i may have disabled it
18:58:35 <pikhq> Should be in the System config dialog.
18:58:35 <alise> "cd Foo Bar" works in windows
18:58:41 <alise> pikhq: nonono, it's registry editing
18:58:58 <pikhq> Well, nLite has it as a tweak.
18:58:59 <alise> now to install explorer
18:59:48 <alise> pikhq: Time to restart with the NT 4 EXPLORER FUCK YEAH
19:00:18 <alise> MINIMALISTS REPRESENT
19:01:12 <alise> pikhq: it didn't work lol.
19:01:38 <pikhq> alise: husàkenn ne, koriȳa.
19:01:55 <alise> pikhq: it's reverted somehow
19:02:41 <alise> http://www.windowsitpro.com/article/jsifaq/jsi-tip-8185-how-do-i-disable-wfp-in-windows-2000-sp4-and-windows-xp-sp1a-.aspx
19:02:48 <alise> SP4: Replacing your nice registry option with a hex edit!
19:02:58 <alise> Because professional users are morons.(TM)
19:03:23 <alise> google still looks fine in IE 5.0 :D
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19:08:24 <pikhq> Should still look reasonable in any web browser, actually. The only fancy stuff in there is Javascript.
19:08:46 <alise> pikhq: it actually seems to have a for-crap-browsers version of the results page
19:08:51 <alise> which looks like it did in yonder days
19:09:08 <alise> i bet some people have some hack to use that as the main page :)
19:10:14 <alise> "Windows File Protection Switcher 1.0"
19:10:16 <alise> Why didn't I know about this
19:14:16 <alise> Woo! I ran a patching tool and WPF complained, so it must be happy.
19:14:27 <alise> I declare the operation a success.
19:15:20 <Vorpal> alise, 16 bits for the opcode of instructions should be more than enough right? (8 is too few, and something in between is... annoying)
19:16:00 <alise> Vorpal: variable length
19:16:11 <Vorpal> alise, well sure for the instruction
19:16:15 <Vorpal> alise, I meant for the *opcode* itself
19:16:18 <alise> you want to be able to store common, small things in very small space
19:16:20 <alise> so variable length opcodes
19:16:32 <alise> for instance, nop or some very common move should just be one byte or so
19:16:42 <alise> exchange-with-passing-directive-bitmasked-with-port-modulo-8
19:16:50 <alise> should clearly not have a priority spot.
19:16:54 <Vorpal> alise, I doubt I would have that one :P
19:16:59 <alise> well, you know what i mean
19:17:04 <alise> just do it vaguely like utf-8
19:17:27 <alise> pikhq: SOMEHOW IT IS THWARTING ME
19:18:15 <Vorpal> alise, well, what about 1-63 for common 1-byte ones (opcode 0 should be invalid or such, that way, jumping to zero filled memory will be invalid), remaining ones for 16-bit ones? I have to check how many that gives me
19:20:05 <pikhq> MY WIN2K DISC IS VERY BROKEN
19:20:08 <pikhq> VERY BROKEN INDEED
19:20:18 <alise> wow, someone claiming microwaving food is bad for you because it uses radiation to cook your food, which puts radiation in your food
19:20:20 <alise> which causes cancer
19:20:31 <alise> i am just smiling now and preparing my noose
19:20:37 * pikhq tries to find an ISO *without any mother-fucking hacks applied at all*
19:20:41 <alise> pikhq: want mine? SP4 included! No serial required!
19:20:50 <alise> I think it just has the serial check removed in the installer. That's it.
19:20:55 <alise> Or maybe is a version that never required it, OEM or something.
19:21:05 <pikhq> alise: I want the raw, as-put-on-disc ISO.
19:21:14 <alise> pikhq: http://www.torrentz.com/9dbe5e50f715eed52a9eb1c07220aee835f31ec1
19:21:25 <alise> pikhq: I am pretty sure it is an OEM version that requires no cd key.
19:21:48 <Vorpal> alise, iirc OEM versions of xp were locked to some BIOS ID? Not sure about win2k
19:22:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: XP started it.
19:22:03 <Gregor> Got a ticket for jaywalking.
19:22:12 <alise> Gregor: Now work on arson and murder.
19:22:27 <Gregor> Vorpal: Crossing a street against a crossing signal.
19:22:28 <pikhq> alise: It seems what he did is slipstream SP4 and add the serial to the auto-install config.
19:22:31 <alise> Wait, what the fuck?
19:22:40 <alise> I just realised that you guys actually have jaywalking as an actual thing, and it's a crime.
19:22:58 <alise> See, I crossed a road without the passenger light being on... two times today.
19:23:12 <alise> Because... all the roads it crossed were either empty or red lighted.
19:23:19 <alise> Are you telling me this is actually illegal in America?
19:23:24 <alise> You can get *fined* for doing this?
19:23:25 <Vorpal> in theory I don't think that is okay here either. But everyone does it.
19:23:30 <pikhq> Yes, and people do it all the time.
19:23:45 <alise> I LOVE HOW YOU GUYS VALUE THE RIGHTS OF CARS MORE THAN THE RIGHTS OF HUMANS
19:23:48 <alise> It's totally great
19:23:48 <pikhq> The police only fine you if it's actually nearly-suicidal for you to do so.
19:23:52 <Vorpal> I doubt anyone would care though here, unless you are holding up traffic
19:23:59 <Gregor> alise: It's also illegal to cross a street against a signal in a car.
19:24:00 <Vorpal> I mean, if it was empty no one would care
19:24:14 <alise> Totally not the same thing, though.
19:24:25 <Gregor> Which is why this is a $20 fine and that would be a $150 fine.
19:24:28 <pikhq> Gregor: Except that pedestrians always always always have right of way.
19:24:34 <alise> It's perfectly legal in the UK.
19:24:46 <Gregor> pikhq: Right of way is distinct from legal passage.
19:24:47 <alise> And common law says that humans take priority (but it's not a right).
19:25:02 <alise> The penalty for it in the UK is, if you do it when there's cars there, you get hit by a car.
19:25:08 <Vorpal> alise, um, so if the car is driven by a human?
19:25:14 <alise> Barbaric? Maybe. Effective? Yes. And it doesn't cost the state a thing!
19:25:29 <alise> Plus, it happens automatically, even if no police officer is around to notice the crime.
19:25:36 <Gregor> Vorpal: What sort of crazy cars do YOU have? HUMAN drivers? Huh?
19:25:45 <alise> The road system is very fucked up.
19:25:58 <alise> Thin pavements, cars driving at ridiculous speeds with basically no regard for walkers or cyclists...
19:26:01 <Vorpal> alise, would not most drivers slow down in such a situation?
19:26:08 <alise> ...Ford Prefect didn't make such a stupid mistake after all.
19:26:18 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, what if it is a blind person? Or a small child?
19:26:24 <alise> Vorpal: Sure, but who says they'll break in time?
19:26:48 <Vorpal> alise, s/break/brake/ ?
19:26:55 <alise> Yeah yeah whatever.
19:27:21 <alise> The crossing is pretty beastly where I'm talking about.
19:27:38 <alise> Two streams of traffic coming in, and a stream going out.
19:27:51 <alise> Which means that the electronics are a little overly cautious...
19:27:54 <Gregor> alise: Does Ford still make the "Ford Ka"?
19:27:56 <pikhq> alise: "WSUS Offline Updater" is nice. It downloads all of the extent patches for a given version of Windows.
19:27:58 <alise> Which means you get held up for thirty seconds or so...
19:28:15 <alise> And then you learn to just cross when nothing's coming. Suicide is painless!
19:28:26 <alise> I hate the road system.
19:28:28 <pikhq> Which shall let me slipstream a 100% complete Win2k disc.
19:28:34 <alise> Gregor: It appears so.
19:28:49 <alise> pikhq: WHY MUST YOU COMPETE WITH ME
19:28:52 <alise> I WILL OBLITERATE YOUR VERY EXISTENCE
19:28:53 <Gregor> The Ford Ka is an American company making fun of your accent right to your face :P
19:29:19 <alise> "This is a Ford car, and this is a Ford Ka."
19:29:41 <alise> "The Ka is a car; one car is a Ka. A Ford Ka is a Ford car. Ford Ka's a Ford car."
19:29:44 <pikhq> alise: I just wants a Windows VM
19:30:02 <pikhq> Why must it always hurt?
19:30:27 <alise> pikhq: So fund Micro2k!
19:32:50 <alise> "Shell32.nt4" is actually meant to be called that
19:33:59 * pikhq curses at bittorrent
19:34:05 <pikhq> Cannot find peers.
19:34:17 <alise> Use the tracker list.
19:34:19 <alise> That's why you use torrentz.com
19:34:31 <alise> http://www.torrentz.com/9dbe5e50f715eed52a9eb1c07220aee835f31ec1 --> click uTorrent compatible list -->
19:34:34 <alise> select all, paste into torrent client
19:34:38 <alise> FWOOM INSTANT SPEED
19:35:04 <pikhq> alise: How do with rtorrent?
19:35:56 <alise> pikhq: rtorrent is fucking painful in its UI.
19:36:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's the standard list format
19:36:13 <alise> hurr let's implement a usual ui using ncurses and the keyboard hurr
19:36:38 <pikhq> alise: Suggestions?
19:37:18 <alise> pikhq: Transmission. Not only does it have a daemon/command-line-client version, it also has a really nice GTK UI.
19:37:26 <alise> Or a local web version, if you're into that.
19:37:32 <alise> pikhq: Oh, Qt too.
19:37:47 <alise> (Although the curses one is in a git repo.)
19:39:30 <alise> http://img48.exs.cx/img48/1732/sometime0ed.png
19:39:36 <alise> Microsoft does have a sense of humour!
19:41:40 <pikhq> alise: So, how do you add a tracker list to Transmission?
19:43:41 <alise> WHY INFERNAL MACHINE WHY
19:45:16 <pikhq> Transmission is definitely superior to rtorrent.
19:47:01 <alise> (Note: the server/client thing is only done if you explicitly do that, and I think only their specific transmission-remote can actually connect to it. But that's not really much of a problem.)
19:47:04 <alise> (Well, and the web interface too.)
19:47:17 <alise> pikhq: Dear God it works.
19:47:40 <alise> Sure, the patched version posted by THE MOST AWESOME PERSON EVER has the XP Professional gradient thing on the start menu but WHO CARES??
19:47:56 <alise> And sure it has the kinda weird circa-95 full-colour icons but that's what editing resources is for.
19:48:05 <pikhq> Should be a simple patch to get it to use the Win2k gradient.
19:48:09 <alise> pikhq: Of course it's... a bit buggy.
19:48:14 <alise> Double click on my computer --> Find: All Files
19:48:16 <pikhq> *Should* be a resource, after all.
19:48:30 <alise> XDD "[X] Run in separate memory space" (greyed out)
19:48:33 <alise> from the Run dialogue
19:49:00 <alise> pikhq: Double clicking is Find..., not Open
19:49:03 <alise> I'm sure that could easily be rectified
19:49:32 <alise> Memory usage of explorer.exe: six megabytes.
19:49:37 <alise> That's what I like to see.
19:50:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: To what?
19:50:15 <alise> pikhq: Haha wow it has the active desktop tab in display settings.
19:50:33 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, that's a seperate DLL.
19:50:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Double click torrent, or just go to its properties in some other way. Click "Trackers". Click "Add". Or, just click the edit button and paste a list in.
19:51:05 <alise> pikhq: It even works with network shares.
19:51:49 <alise> pikhq: Another thing that would need to be corrected: Shows the irritating computer icon on folders that are shared or whatever, which basically means all the programs you've installed in the programs menu.
19:51:53 <alise> But really, this is minor stuff.
19:51:55 <alise> This works almost perfectly.
19:52:09 <alise> pikhq: IT EVEN WORKS WITH THE CONTROL PANEL
19:53:51 <alise> pikhq: Folder options control panel doesn't work though. Obviously.
19:56:16 <alise> pikhq: What we are learning today: NT changes very little.
19:56:46 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:57:23 <alise> Even rebooting works.
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20:01:01 <alise> "It definitely has its share of glitches, like displaying a dozen instances of Task Manager in the systray, among other things."
20:01:11 <alise> pikhq: Apparently you can extract the NT files from an update.
20:02:09 <alise> ---------------------------
20:02:09 <alise> ---------------------------
20:02:09 <alise> Not enough storage is available to complete this operation.
20:02:09 <alise> ---------------------------
20:02:12 <alise> ---------------------------
20:02:14 <alise> pikhq: Printers folder: don't fuck with it.
20:02:58 <olsner> welcome to #esoteric, where alise prefixes every messages with pikhq
20:03:23 <alise> olsner: but it's all one continuous stream about running the NT4 Explorer in Windows 2k!
20:03:25 <oerjan> he's just trying to pikhq or interest
20:04:03 <alise> [ Start ] <- Click here to begin.
20:04:52 <olsner> Windows 2000 was nice, with updated drivers (and maybe 64-bit support) it would easily be the best windows evar
20:05:45 <alise> olsner: no, windows 95 still holds that crown
20:05:49 <alise> which me and pikhq are trying to rectify
20:05:54 <alise> cool nt4 explorer crashed :)
20:06:29 <alise> pikhq: I wonder how Chrome likes being run in NT4's explorer.
20:07:57 <pikhq> Doesn't support Win2k.
20:09:35 <olsner> opera apparently still works on windows 95, but it's not supported
20:11:13 <alise> it works great yeah
20:11:17 <alise> juts not officially
20:11:23 <pikhq> olsner: It lists Windows 95 as a minimum requirement, I thought
20:11:34 <alise> you need to install it manually
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20:16:29 <alise> I wonder which of Opera and Chrome would actually run better on 2000.
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20:23:16 <Harpyon> It is what you want it to be :)
20:30:39 <oerjan> google.no suggests i mean "Harpyørn"
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20:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> An advert on TV has just said that the internet is the most important invention of the 21st century.
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20:46:00 <oerjan> no. 2 is clearly accurate timekeeping
20:48:35 <Gregor> It seems that ARM EABI takes a very progressive stance on floating point equality.
20:48:39 <Gregor> ((float) whatever == (float) whatever_else) always => false
20:48:45 <Gregor> Even if they're bit-per-bit identical.
20:49:11 <Gregor> Conversely, != is always true, even if they're bit-per-bit identical.
20:49:17 <Gregor> Excluding infinity and NaN cases of course.
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20:53:29 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if Rand cultists are forbidden from using floating point stuff.
20:53:43 <Gregor> Floating point is the root of most evil.
20:54:00 * oerjan _thinks_ he gets Phantom_Hoover's reference
20:54:54 <oerjan> mailed to somewhere in aisa
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21:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me, or is Facebook collapsing under its own weight?
21:02:33 <Harpyon> it's been gradual, too. lately notifications and chat has been failing, and earlier today it all just stopped
21:03:36 <Gregor> Yeah, it's dead right now.
21:03:54 <Gregor> And unfortunately, it probably gets more traffic while dead than while alive :P
21:04:00 <Gregor> So it's tough for it to come back up.
21:04:01 <Harpyon> I know, it's kind of awesome :P
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21:09:08 <Harpyon> they probably just spilt coffee on a server or something
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22:13:37 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> An advert on TV has just said that the internet is the most important invention of the 21st century.
22:13:39 <alise> yeah i hate that one >_<
22:14:06 <alise> who has EVER seen the stupid confused.com logo thing as female before, either?
22:14:15 <alise> she even morphs when she goes back in at the end to look male
22:15:37 <Phantom_Hoover> At least, not without paying an ad company to dynamically synergise it with the proactive paradigm!
22:20:52 <alise> pikhq: Every pageload in IE, NTx4r (en tee ex four er; NT4 explorer) crashes and reloads. :)
22:23:20 * Sgeo sads at Diaspora not being written by competent persons
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22:25:47 <alise> Vorpal: make the processor 72-bit
22:26:06 <alise> Vorpal: no, 96-bit!
22:26:08 <alise> it's half-way to 128-bit
22:26:54 <alise> you already knew they weren't competent: they think *facebook* was a damn good idea, if only it was more nerdy
22:27:18 <alise> as if facebook was anything less than being nearly the death of people communicating in non-infuriating ways with even a hint of intelligence
22:27:52 -!- nooga has joined.
22:31:48 <alise> pikhq: I... don't think NT 4 has quick launch.
22:31:51 <alise> That is... not good.
22:32:46 <alise> pikhq: I have a theory that Opera is actually powered by the annoyingness of its default interface.
22:32:57 <alise> They make it stupider every release.
22:33:27 <Vorpal> <alise> as if facebook was anything less than being nearly the death of people communicating in non-infuriating ways with even a hint of intelligence <-- myspace?
22:33:42 <alise> Vorpal: nobody with a hint of intelligence signed up for myspace in the first place, so no loss
22:34:02 <alise> well ok i did sign up but only to be snarky and that was before facebook was anything more than for the pretentious college kids
22:34:30 <Vorpal> alise, never signed up to facebook I hope?
22:34:50 <alise> i did, but in my defence it had just been released to the public and still had a reputation of being far less stupid than myspace.
22:34:53 <alise> for instance, there were no apps.
22:35:08 <alise> the last time i signed in was to play go with a friend to avoid the hassle and unlikelihood of him installing gnu go
22:35:19 <alise> this lasted a very short time, as i am the only person worse than him at go
22:35:35 <alise> Vorpal: btw, i'm not actually using nt4
22:35:47 <alise> i've just transplanted NT4's (i.e. Windows 95's) Explorer onto Win2k
22:35:57 <alise> so it controls the desktop, the file management, the task bar and the start menu
22:36:12 <alise> oh, and logging out, shutting down and rebooting, of which it can do none, but i'm sure that can be fixed
22:38:41 -!- augur has joined.
22:39:33 <alise> oh, it hasn't entirely figured out click-minimising yet, either
22:39:41 <alise> as in clicking on the taskbar
22:39:44 <alise> pikhq: how goes your efforts?
22:41:22 <alise> pikhq: windizupdate works perfectly.
22:42:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Does Agda have any merit as a dependent programming language?
22:43:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: As research, sure.
22:44:02 <alise> It's not the worst thing ever.
22:44:06 <alise> The devs are mostly nice people.
22:44:16 <alise> It's just that a lot of stupid people have promoted it in very stupid ways.
22:45:37 <alise> well, they pretend you can do some sort of proving with it
22:45:45 <alise> but if you said you were gonna prove riemann i doubt they'd recommend it.
22:45:48 <alise> it's definitely a research project
22:46:13 <Sgeo> One of XChat-GNOME's quirks is starting to get at me
22:46:30 <Vorpal> alise, I decided that long jumps and call must go to an even address. That has the advantage of being able to use LSB to indicate absolute/relative IP
22:46:48 <Sgeo> If someone writes multiple lines in a row, the nick is only shown for the first
22:46:58 <alise> Sgeo: you can disable that. but if you're gonna fuck with settings, install xchat
22:47:01 <alise> pikhq: i mean to what :P
22:47:14 <alise> Vorpal: make it an extra 1-bit parameter
22:47:52 <Vorpal> alise, but that means instructions won't start at byte boundaries!
22:48:31 <alise> Vorpal: you have no knowledge of the risc my friend
22:48:35 <alise> Vorpal: pad it out to a byte, but don't pad
22:48:38 <alise> make it do something useful instead
22:48:46 <alise> for instance, let it serve as small constant storage
22:48:52 <alise> or perhaps do something to a register
22:48:57 <alise> Vorpal: not joking, this is basically how you design a risc! :p
22:48:59 <Vorpal> alise, and okay, Now it is an extra 1 bit parameter. It is stored after the 31 most significant bits of the address :P
22:49:43 <Vorpal> alise, as for the constant, hm, for what in a jump
22:49:57 <alise> Vorpal: just make it get put somewhere
22:50:00 <alise> or shift some value
22:50:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: clever
22:50:15 <Vorpal> alise, that explains some weirdness of some RISC :P
22:51:02 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I can't think of any other useful addressing modes than abs/relative pc for jumps and calls
22:51:12 <Vorpal> for some other it is obvious
22:51:42 <alise> or perhaps power addresses
22:51:46 <alise> for a crazy executable b-tree
22:51:55 <alise> where it literally jumps around the binary tree!
22:52:05 <Vorpal> I mean, bit shift? Ah, you have the flags: rotate, arithmetic, rip/abs/off-reg
22:52:26 <alise> Vorpal: yes, requires executable code though, and you're too boring to do that
22:52:38 <Vorpal> alise, executable code?
22:52:47 <alise> executable data, you know what i mean
22:52:54 <alise> because you'd store the binary tree lookup stuff in the tree itself
22:52:56 <alise> and jump around it
22:53:08 <Vorpal> alise, and that will obviously be supported. As well as having a NX flag, because no-execute is good sometimes
22:53:24 <Vorpal> but executable data will probably be supported
22:53:27 <Vorpal> it is an useful feature
22:54:19 <Vorpal> alise, oh and I went for 256-bit SIMD. 128-bit is so boring
22:55:25 <Vorpal> alise, and I'm considering making the SIMD subset of instructions form a VLIW group. Not VLIW as in IA64 exactly though.
22:55:53 <Vorpal> rather that horizontal vs. vertical kind of thing
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23:03:07 <EOF> GOTO SLEEP
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23:04:21 <alise> pikhq: Subpixel antialiasing on Windows 2000; discuss.
23:04:40 <pikhq> alise: This is a legitimate argument for using a highly stripped XP.
23:04:49 <alise> pikhq: Nonono, as in, I have it.
23:04:54 <alise> One could even say that I has it.
23:04:59 <pikhq> alise: Oh. Awesomeness.
23:05:09 <EOF> svn commit -F suicide_note.txt suicide.c
23:05:16 <pikhq> Nay, that's definitely hot sex.
23:05:25 <alise> "Verily, hot sex."
23:05:48 <alise> pikhq: http://www.cobyx.com/software/gdi/
23:05:52 <alise> Based on unmaintained: http://drwatson.nobody.jp/gdi++/index-en.html
23:06:02 <alise> It links to a 2ch thread and a Japanese page about the new version they're doing, but whatever.
23:06:08 <pikhq> alise: By god yes.
23:06:10 <alise> pikhq: Note: Tweaking the ini is a pain and such, but.
23:06:18 <alise> pikhq: Configuration three in gditray defaults is quite nice.
23:06:21 <pikhq> Probably beats fontconfig.
23:06:23 <alise> But they're all a little bit under-hinted.
23:06:35 <alise> pikhq: As in, sometimes it seems to completely ignore the ini.
23:06:53 <alise> I think if you use one of the 1/2/3 ini files it works.
23:07:02 <alise> Anyway, I have never before seen NT4 explorer using subpixel antialiasing.
23:07:07 <alise> Actually maybe that screenshot of it in XP had it.
23:07:22 <alise> pikhq: it actually smooths /Microsoft Sans Serif/
23:07:27 <alise> I think it can even smooth Terminal
23:07:39 <alise> *ah, no, not terminal
23:08:16 <nooga> terminus without aa
23:08:17 <pikhq> I do have to give Microsoft credit for at least having fonts that look decent while aliased.
23:08:21 <nooga> and aesome, and vims
23:09:15 <pikhq> alise: Microsoft Sans Serif, BTW, is the Truetype version of MS Sans Serif.
23:09:25 <alise> pikhq: Err, right.
23:09:32 <alise> pikhq: Unfortunately you can't antialias window titles or the default menu font. :)
23:09:45 <EOF> GOTO SLEEP
23:10:36 <alise> pikhq: And no, I don't know how to make GDI++Tuner save, either.
23:11:14 <EOF> somebody should leak the windows source code, then make GPL'd versions of every file
23:11:43 <EOF> microsoft would never admit the whole source was leaked
23:11:44 <pikhq> EOF: Wouldn't work the way you think.
23:11:45 <alise> EOF: you are a moron
23:11:53 <alise> <pikhq> EOF: Wouldn't work the way you think.
23:11:53 <alise> <alise> EOF: you are a moron
23:11:56 <alise> Two paths were taken that day
23:12:58 <EOF> $ cd suicide
23:13:00 <alise> pikhq: Ever noticed how nice Palatino Linotype is? No? That must be the GDI++ talking.
23:13:36 <EOF> svn commit -m "Farewell, cruel world!"
23:14:10 * pikhq mutters about niche music being impossible to pirate
23:14:29 <pikhq> I just want something other than shitty MP3s from a decade ago.
23:14:34 <alise> pikhq: Not quite true...
23:14:53 <alise> There is a knack to it, you know
23:15:12 <EOF> GOTO isohunt.com
23:15:12 <pikhq> alise: The problem is that I'm picky.
23:15:35 <EOF> torrents often have proper 320kbps encoding of songs
23:15:47 <EOF> evern for your niche shit
23:15:52 <pikhq> EOF: That's not proper, that's evil.
23:16:00 <alise> pikhq: gdippManager may be better than gditray. Not sure.
23:16:09 <alise> EOF: you are even more of a moron than previously suspected.
23:16:12 <alise> and the LAME developers hate you
23:16:14 <EOF> people use mp3
23:16:14 <pikhq> Seriously, if you're going to use lossy encoding you should use one that's lower quality but still effectively transparent.
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23:16:25 <alise> Like -V2 --joint-stereo.
23:16:27 <pikhq> And if you're going to use a high bitrate encoding you might as well use FLAC.
23:16:51 <Sgeo> alise, why does Flash keep crashing?
23:16:54 <pikhq> 320 kbps MP3 is the worst of all worlds.
23:16:58 <alise> Sgeo: because it hates you
23:17:00 <EOF> because it's flash
23:17:11 <Sgeo> How do I make it not crash?
23:17:19 <EOF> by not using it
23:17:23 <alise> pikhq: Yay, I got the config working.
23:17:33 <alise> That is waaay too much hinting.
23:17:38 <Sgeo> Wasn't alise p,laying with OSS or something to get it working?
23:17:47 <alise> flash always sucks
23:18:15 * EOF deals with it all over your mom
23:18:53 <EOF> i've had way too much programming serum
23:20:08 <EOF> i hate me too
23:20:10 <alise> pikhq: Grr, it's so tricky to tweak.
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23:23:27 <olsner> holy fuck spider goats: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/End%20of%20the%20World/Genetics%20Nightmare/spider_goats.htm
23:24:25 <alise> pikhq: Any luck with GDI++?
23:24:32 <alise> Configuring it is the biggest bitch in the history of bitch.
23:24:59 <pikhq> alise: Not been futzing with it.
23:26:43 <Sgeo> In Perl, if I'm using a dynamically scoped variable, say, set something at the top level, get it at some subroutine somewhere?
23:26:50 <Sgeo> Might something in the middle accidentally modify it?
23:26:55 <alise> So, report: It is possible to run an operating system from 2000 with a desktop shell from 1996 and modern subpixel rendering technology that involves hacking the fundamental graphics library from 2006.
23:26:59 <alise> And all of this basically works.
23:27:15 <Sgeo> I _think_ Factor avoids this. Variable names are words in vocabularies, so no collisions
23:27:36 <Sgeo> Maybe I should write something quickly
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23:28:57 <olsner> alise: that says something!
23:29:04 <olsner> dunno exactly what though
23:29:11 <alise> olsner: yes, and what it says is this: Microsoft are really crazy about backwards compatibility.
23:29:18 <alise> And... forwards... compatibility.
23:29:31 <alise> And Dear God You Are Molesting My Files compatibility.
23:30:54 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/G0ptn
23:31:06 <alise> pikhq: http://offset.skew.org/wiki/User:Mjb/GDI%2B%2B
23:31:19 <alise> Sgeo: word wrap fail.
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23:33:09 <alise> pikhq: tl;dr japs are doing their crazy thing and developing new perfect version. mortals sit baffled
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23:34:29 <olsner> your summary is awesome, I wonder if it implies awesomeness in the actual thing
23:34:29 <alise> pikhq: What do you think of Server 2003?
23:34:36 <alise> It's like Windows 2000 but for XP.
23:34:51 <alise> olsner: it basically hacks custom font rendering -- in the new version, freetype -- into windows' GDI library
23:34:55 <alise> so it is awesome in the oh god trauma way
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23:37:26 <pikhq> alise: From what I've seen of it, it... Doesn't suck.
23:37:36 <alise> pikhq: Maybe we should...
23:37:47 <pikhq> Of course, it's a "professional" OS, instead of end-user tinkertoy bullshit.
23:38:00 <pikhq> Which counts for a lot.
23:38:00 <alise> pikhq: You can push it into workstation mode.
23:38:18 <alise> With sufficient rohypnol. Uh, forget I said that.
23:38:19 <pikhq> Yup. 2003 Pro is the workstation version.
23:38:28 <pikhq> And it's not end-user tinkertoy bullshit. :)
23:38:28 <alise> pikhq: I mean you can push the actual server version into workstation mode.
23:44:15 <alise> Hey, it can reboot now.
23:44:31 <alise> "Built on NT Technology" -> "Built on New Technology Technology"
23:45:19 <olsner> if you don't know that the T in NT stands for technology, you will need it written out for the sentence to make sence
23:46:03 <olsner> I don't get what the big deal is with "lol, same word wice in a row if you expand the acronym"
23:46:04 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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23:46:29 <TwokNT4GDIpp> ...is the technology I am using right now. Also Opera.
23:46:36 <alise> olsner: i don't care like some stupid people do
23:46:40 <alise> i just found it a bit amusing in this case
23:46:52 <olsner> a "scsi interface" means a whole lot more than "a scsi"
23:47:06 <alise> "ATM machine HURRR and whenever anyone says 'radar ranging' I'm ON their ass"
23:48:41 <alise> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i860
23:49:11 <olsner> hmm... I wonder if I can set up my shell to run everything through time, I'm almost obsessed with timing my commands but always forget to add 'time ' on the beginning and then I have to start all over again :)
23:49:52 <alise> olsner: send the time output to a temporary file and store it in a variable :)
23:50:12 <alise> for instance "times" would cat the time of the last command
23:50:17 <alise> "times 1" second-last
23:50:26 <alise> up to about 10 recorded times
23:50:36 <alise> olsner: and hide the output normally
23:50:41 <alise> after all, there's no kill like overkill
23:50:42 <olsner> yeees, but I would have to run through time and store the times anyway
23:51:02 <olsner> I might as well just *display* it as part of the prompt :)
23:53:06 <alise> olsner: i have this crazy suspicion you use zsh
23:53:41 -!- sshc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:53:45 <olsner> I used to use it but then I reinstalled and realized I was too lazy to configure a non-standard shell
23:53:56 -!- EOF has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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23:57:28 <olsner> "The i860 did see some use in the workstation world as a graphics accelerator. It was used, for instance, in the NeXTdimension, where it ran a cut-down version of the Mach kernel running a complete PostScript stack."
23:57:42 <alise> apparently I, ehird, am a "electric humanoid intelligent robotic daemon™"
23:57:58 <olsner> that's such an awesome use for a general-purpose processor
00:01:16 <alise> olsner: "Look at this, Intel. This is how CRAP your processor is. We use it to run PostScript underneath our OS. It is a fucking graphics card! Disgusting."
00:03:33 <pikhq> A Display Postscript graphics card.
00:04:05 * Sgeo enters YouTube's HTML5 beta
00:04:29 <Sgeo> It's either that or keep enduring Flash crashes
00:04:45 <pikhq> Problem is, apparently web browser devs suck at video about as bad as Adobe.
00:05:01 <alise> pikhq: No, no; HTML5 video is good.
00:05:04 <alise> YouTube manage to fuck it up.
00:05:05 <olsner> List price for a NeXTdimension sold as an add-on to the NeXTcube was $US 3,995.
00:06:23 <alise> Sgeo: try and see.
00:08:46 <alise> Does anyone want my incredibly-hacky NASA Astronomy Picture of the Day automagic background-setter?
00:10:05 <Sgeo> Was it written in Falctor?
00:10:40 <alise> It only works with GNOME. Well, it only works if Nautilus controls the desktop.
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00:19:23 <Sgeo> I INSTALLED FLASHBLOCK, DAMMIT
00:26:09 <alise> Sep 24 00:00:28 dinky kernel: [29372.274066] rtl8192_SetWirelessMode(), wireless_mode:10, bEnableHT = 1
00:26:14 <alise> Sgeo: you enabled html5.
00:26:15 <alise> html5 is not flash
00:28:30 <Sgeo> Believe it or not, I was aware of that
00:28:45 <Sgeo> But FlashBlock failed to block something, and when I went to check extensions, it wasn't there
00:33:08 <pikhq> It also comes with a whitelist that enables Youtube.
00:33:47 <Sgeo> DIdn't used to have that on the whitelist
00:33:59 <Sgeo> Which was nice when I opened a bunch of YouTube tabs
00:34:03 <Sgeo> Back on my ancient comp
00:35:57 <Sgeo> I never used to have problems with Flash on Ubuntu :/
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01:08:22 <Sgeo> I should attempt to get SL working
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01:12:42 <EOF> yo bitches
01:13:21 * Sgeo feeds everyone chocolate
01:13:25 <pikhq> hì'ti sìȳa nai sè'!
01:13:39 <Sgeo> There, all the bitches are dead
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01:15:52 * EOF forces everyone to vomit using a special sound frequency
01:17:51 * Gregor vomits his frame pointer.
01:18:47 * pikhq vomits out EOF's resonant frequency
01:19:24 * EOF laughs out loud
01:19:51 * EOF notices SEGFAULTS!!! NOOOOO!!!!
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01:24:51 <Sgeo> Ubuntu feels very unstable :(
01:24:53 <alise> Sgeo: But did you remember to cool the hot bitches before poisoning them???
01:24:58 <alise> Your system just sucks.
01:26:02 <Sgeo> Then Ubuntu is unstable on this system. Windows was not.
01:27:06 * Sgeo goes to install XChat
01:28:02 <alise> clearly this is a flaw in ubuntu not your computer being shit
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01:32:17 * alise boggles at Sgeo's paranoia.
01:32:56 <EOF> ubuntu is one of the most stable GNU/Linux distros around, but i did find that the maverick meerkat repos have either very stable, or completely non-working software
01:33:26 <EOF> the lucid repos *should* have some good versions
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01:38:10 <Sgeo> alise, what paranoia?
01:46:26 <Sgeo> That's the second time SL crashed for no reason
01:47:17 * Sgeo sadly disables visual effects
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02:04:02 * Sgeo decides to run SL from a console
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02:05:27 * Sgeo is starting to wonder if it's sound-related
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02:23:37 <Sgeo> I'm starting to wonder if it's all Chromium's fault
02:25:25 <Gregor> Everything is chromium's fault. Fekking allergen.
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02:40:39 <Sgeo> Now it's Firefox crashing like crazy
02:40:45 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I have no swap space
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03:13:29 <myndzi> on Windows at least (it sounds like maybe you aren't on windows?) you can run down to 0 bytes HD space left and get no warning
03:13:37 <myndzi> just a bunch of bizarre crap starts happening
03:13:46 <myndzi> it doesn't say HAY JACKASS DELETE SOME FILES or anything
03:15:16 <Sgeo> Oh, Ubuntu warns me about HD issues
03:15:36 <Sgeo> Not memory issues though, which is what I think the problem is
03:15:47 <Sgeo> It's just that there is no swap space with LiveUSB I think
03:43:36 * pikhq notes that it would be really silly to have FLACs of all the Final Fantasy soundtracks
03:44:27 <Sgeo> For limited-space persons?
03:44:34 <Sgeo> Or are FF soundtracks low-quality to start with?
03:45:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: Before FFX, it was all synthesized by the console it was running on.
03:46:40 <Sgeo> Which is more portable? FLACs, or software that can generate the music?
03:47:40 <pikhq> Though on a desktop system it's not hard to get a synth emulator going; most consoles have their sound systems perfectly emulated, and there's programs to just emulate a music ROM.
03:48:09 <Sgeo> Meh, it's probably easier for most people to waste the HD space
03:48:26 <Sgeo> I would need the synth stuff
03:49:01 <pikhq> Yeah, but "most people" will just accept MP3s.
03:55:45 <Sgeo> Creatures 3 (at least, don't know about older versions) uses procedurally-generated music
03:56:04 <Sgeo> Which varies based on mood and threat and something else
04:05:58 <Gregor> I changed some code from using nasty casts to using a union, and even though it's semantically identical, GCC produces much better assembly with the union.
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04:07:29 <Gregor> I did this because I was compiling with -Wall -Werror -ansi -pedantic, and my reinterpreting a word as a float/double evoked the ever-meaningless type-punned pointer error.
04:07:41 -!- augur has joined.
04:07:56 <Gregor> (Since I was type-punning a size_t with a float or double)
04:09:50 <pikhq> Gregor: It's not meaningless. It means you hit undefined behavior, and the compiler has replaced you with a small shell script.
04:11:03 <Gregor> But I still find the RESULT very weird.
04:11:21 <Gregor> I change it for a union, do something semantically identical with that union, and it produces different assembly?
04:11:33 <pikhq> Ah, but it's not semantically identical.
04:11:46 <Gregor> It is on every actual platform :P
04:12:00 <pikhq> Though they are both undefined behavior, and GCC will launch the missiles now.
04:13:55 <Gregor> Aww crap it blew up Hong Kong.
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04:40:15 <coppro> yay, I came up with a proof that I believe to be more elegant than the one the prof was helping other students to come to
04:55:39 * pikhq downloads a 33 gig music torrent
04:57:50 * Sgeo jealousies at pikhq
04:58:25 <Sgeo> I'm starting to think maybe Knoppix is a good idea. Presumably, with Knoppix, part of the USB would be swap space, and the OS would be started from CD, leaving more USB space for personal files
05:12:41 <coppro> damn inequalities. Damn them all!
05:15:18 <coppro> they're so great for proving absolutely useless stuff
05:16:54 <coppro> also multiplying them is irreversible
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05:40:38 <Sgeo> coppro, what happens when a=0?
05:41:00 <Gregor> The world comes to an end.
05:42:44 <coppro> Sgeo: in my example, that can't happen
05:42:57 <coppro> I fully expect you to know this already
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05:47:01 <Sgeo> I can't seem to determine whether that's a joke or not
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05:48:08 <coppro> I'm just tired and annoyed
05:48:45 <coppro> because I'm really dumb or something
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06:44:12 <coppro> apparently my party is bemused
06:49:27 <wareya> Alright, does this look good for now?
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07:16:08 <coppro> wow, my parliament is getting worse and worse as time goes on
07:16:22 <coppro> A minister said 'What I do find shocking though is that the Liberal Party and its coalition partners so willingly are sanctioning the idea that we could sanction Canadians with jail time or with fines to pursue what they think is right.' and wasn't trounced on
07:16:26 <coppro> I'd be all over that in a heartbeat
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07:16:41 <coppro> brilliant thing to build a strawman from
07:18:07 <oerjan> i vaguely recall sanctioning is its own antynom, which makes that a bit hard to interpret
07:19:38 <oerjan> that is, it can mean both approve and punish
07:20:07 <oerjan> hm i guess it's obvious which is which up there
07:22:05 <oerjan> of course not, warrigal is tswett. that's obvious, sheesh
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07:22:41 <oerjan> (and isn't here much any longer)
07:23:04 <oerjan> bastard got a life or something
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10:08:40 <fizzie> Brainfuck dabblers, perhaps.
10:11:46 <nullkuhl> am trying to parse an input, to print it in reverse, and input ends with a character of asci value = 10 and i should skip that character and itshould be where my code terminates
10:13:31 <nullkuhl> fizzie: do you have any approach in head ?
10:15:04 <fizzie> Well; for the reversing, the easiest is just to read on tape one way, then print it all out in the other order afterwards. As for the termination, flags could be useful. I'll dabble for a moment.
10:30:24 <fizzie> ^bf +[,[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>--------------------------------[<+>[-]]<]<<[.<]!foobar baz
10:30:29 <fizzie> Well, that inverts up to a space.
10:30:43 <fizzie> It doesn't handle EOF properly, though.
10:32:33 <fizzie> It basically loops a while(p[0]) { p[0] = input; p[2] = p[0]; p[2] -= 32; if (p[2]) p[1] = 1; p++; } and then after that ends does p -= 2; while (p[0]) { putchar(p[0]); p--; }
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10:37:51 <nullkuhl> fizzie: there is no such thing as a C to brainfuck convertor yeah ?
10:38:22 <fizzie> I think there's approximately two, but neither might be very complete.
10:38:38 <fizzie> One of them is a GCC backend, the other was a more stand-alone thing.
10:40:05 <fizzie> Uh.. http://codu.org/projects/trac/gcc_bf/browser seems to be about the gcc-bf project, but it might be non-trivial to build. ais523 wrote it, unless I misremember; he'd know more about how well it works, but doesn't seem to be here at the moment.
10:41:03 <fizzie> There's also the bfcomp thing, which doesn't exactly compile C to brainfuck, but a C-like higher-level language: http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/bfcomp.html
10:42:04 <nullkuhl> i was trying to find a bf tracer or a debugger that shows the memory array or so
10:42:52 <fizzie> I've used http://www.iamcal.com/misc/bf_debug/ for quick in-browser tests.
10:43:06 <fizzie> It's not too featureful, but can single-step and does breakpoints.
10:43:39 <fizzie> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#External_resources contains a metric bazillion of links to brainfuck-related stuff, too.
10:44:49 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i860 <-- hm what about it? I know about it since before.
10:45:38 <fizzie> esotope in particular is nice; here's what it outputs if I give it that "reverse string up to a space" thing: http://p.zem.fi/esotope-out.c
10:47:07 <nullkuhl> fizzie: ok i made it: ,----------[++++++++++>,----------]<[.<] this reverse input till a new line character is met
10:47:24 <nullkuhl> fizzie: its quite long though :)
10:48:45 <Vorpal> olsner, alise: <alise> "ATM machine HURRR and whenever anyone says 'radar ranging' I'm ON their ass" <-- an amusing such case in Swedish is that a CD is quite often called "CD-skiva"... "skiva" translates to "disc" in this context...
10:49:54 <Vorpal> same goes for "DVD-skiva", but I think (based on personal experience) that it is getting more uncommon nowdays than when CDs and DVDs were new technology...
10:50:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's "CD-levy" ("CD disc") in Finnish too. (For some reason, I don't think I've really heard anyone speak of "CD discs" in English, but I do have heard "DVD discs". Though most of course go just "DVDs".)
10:50:51 <nullkuhl> fizzie: can you make it shorter?
10:51:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm that http://p.zem.fi/esotope-out.c is somewhat suboptimal. Trying to think of what kind of analysis would find that p[1] += p[0]; could be turned into p[1] = p[0];
10:51:38 <Vorpal> probably some sort of flow control analysis
10:52:14 <Vorpal> that looks at loop entry conditions as well as loop exit conditions
10:52:36 <Vorpal> or wait, did I misanalyse it?
10:52:49 <Vorpal> yep, missed that it wasn't balanced
10:53:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: It should still be safe, because of the p[2] = 0 before ++p. But it might not be so easy for it to grok.
10:54:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, adding a [-] at the beginning of the loop would probably help
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11:11:47 <nullkuhl> fizzie: could this be shorter ,----------[++++++++++>,----------]<[.<] ?
11:12:01 <fizzie> nullkuhl: +[,[-<+>>+<]>----------]<<<[.<]
11:13:12 <nullkuhl> fizzie: ugh, someone did it in 14 chars :(
11:13:25 <nullkuhl> am golfing with some friends actually
11:14:20 <fizzie> 14 chars is barely enough to have the constant 10 in there, so it sounds a bit cheaty. What sort of test cases you have for it?
11:15:01 <nullkuhl> you dont have to have a 10 constant , may be you can just ignore the last char
11:15:26 <fizzie> Oh, okay, in that case it sounds more sensible.
11:16:36 <fizzie> Something like ,-[+>,-]<<[.<] might work for EOF=-1 and ignore-last-char-before-EOF.
11:16:47 <fizzie> Haven't tested that, don't have a EOF -1 interp handy here.
11:17:52 <fizzie> ais does Java, but I guess you meant "here right now at this very moment".
11:18:17 <fizzie> Uh, I mean ,+[->,+]<<[.<] of course.
11:19:42 <fizzie> fungot has EOF=0, so in his case:
11:19:42 <fungot> fizzie: in the middle ages, sir slush!... i grow so tired. we can talk. we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away! wait! maybe you'd know!!... smell of all the human race is doomed! mwa, ha! say, do you like plants?
11:21:49 <fizzie> In case ,+[->,+]<<[.<] works, that's 14 chars; in that case I think +[->,+]<<[.<] should work too, and be only 13 chars.
11:29:17 <fizzie> (I've been seen doing some Java too, but those are just unsubstantiated rumours...)
11:37:42 <nullkuhl> fizzie: ,+[->,+]<<[.<] that crashes :(
11:38:56 <fizzie> That's funny, it should do pretty much the same thing.
11:39:51 <fizzie> The latter doesn't try to go past the left end of the tape, though, so if your tape isn't wrapping, that might explain why it crashes.
11:40:05 <nullkuhl> i think [->,+]<<[.<] should work too
11:40:28 <fizzie> [->,+]<<[.<] will always skip the first [...] completely, assuming the tape is initialized to zero.
11:42:24 <fizzie> It would print out an extra \0, but maybe that gets ignored somehow.
11:43:13 <nullkuhl> +[->,+] i think this is the part to be changed to 1 char less
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11:51:04 <nullkuhl> fizzie: shouldnt this work : +[->,+]<[<.] ?
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11:53:14 <fizzie> Anything with [<.] at the end will (out of necessity) print out a 0 byte at the end, because the [<.] loop only terminates if . has printed out a nul.
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11:58:34 <nullkuhl> [>,+] ok this should keep taking input till EOF (-1) is gotten, then <[<.] should print it reversed and terminate at first value in tape which is zero
11:58:54 <nullkuhl> fizzie: [>,+]<[<.] in theory should work
12:00:32 <fizzie> I don't see how, it'd at the very least end up printing all bytes with +1 applied.
12:01:14 <fizzie> That will again never enter the [>,+] loop if the tape starts at zero. And [<-.] again terminates only after actually printing the zero.
12:01:24 <fizzie> Why don't you try these out instead of asking, though?-)
12:02:12 <nullkuhl> i was just trying to discuss it , to understand it more
12:03:36 <fizzie> Interpreters are more reliable than people, though.
12:08:57 <nullkuhl> fizzie: ok one more thing, if EOF is -1 , why does this crash ,+[-.,+]
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12:10:01 <fizzie> That I don't know; it should be pretty much a straight-forward "cat".
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13:35:18 <nooga> i pronounce 'nooga' it like 'noga'
13:35:27 <nooga> noga means leg in polish
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14:21:14 <nullkuhl> fizzie: is it possible to do multiplication using brainfuck ?
14:22:11 <fizzie> Sure, why not? Just add a to b, c times, to get b = a*c.
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14:22:39 <fizzie> It might be a bit trickier with multi-cell numbers if you need more than a byte.
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14:22:46 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
14:23:06 <fizzie> That does bignum multiplication by a constant 2, but it's very silly.
14:23:27 <fungot> +2[[<+7[-<+7>]>[-<+<+>>]<[->+<]<-2.[-]<]+4[->+8<]>.[-]>>[-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>-8>+>[->+>+<2]+>>[<2->>[-]]<2[>+<-]>[-<+>]<4-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<[-]]]]]]]]]]<[->+<]>+>[-<+>]>>]<3]
14:24:31 <nullkuhl> well it should take 2 numbers separated by a new line
14:24:46 <nullkuhl> the output will be less than 10000
14:27:50 <fizzie> Hrm. If you're golfing this, it may even make sense to just do decimal multiplication, the routines I've seen to convert from decimal and back have been a bit unwieldy.
14:28:29 <nullkuhl> fizzie: is there such routines already ?
14:29:47 <fizzie> Sure; at least in example programs around the interwebs, and presumably also in those higher-level languages.
14:31:51 <fizzie> http://mazonka.com/brainf/ has some that seem familiar to me.
14:32:05 <fizzie> That probably uses one of them.
14:32:07 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
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14:58:03 <oerjan> <nullkuhl> am trying to parse an input, to print it in reverse, and input ends with a character of asci value = 10 and i should skip that character and itshould be where my code terminates
14:58:24 <oerjan> i am pretty sure one of the bots has a command for that.
14:58:31 <oerjan> unless it was _old_ EgoBot
14:58:43 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
14:58:57 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
14:59:04 <EgoBot> bf ,----------[++++++++++>,----------]<[.[-]<]
14:59:42 <oerjan> fungot uses ascii 0 to terminate instead
14:59:42 <fungot> oerjan: the usual...test them. you can entertain us for awhile? use the skyway to save miss you. but i like it that you survived? marle lucca
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15:00:07 * oerjan may have written one or both of those
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15:01:29 <nullkuhl> oerjan: thanks i did it already 12 characters :)
15:01:54 <oerjan> wait 12 characters including the ascii 10?
15:02:46 <EgoBot> sadol :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@<pl(2?=#Cp"1+:#Mm%+#Mm1,3255?=#Cp"1-:#Mm?<-#Mm10,3254-#Mm1?=#Cp"1>:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1
15:02:56 <oerjan> nullkuhl: um no that definitely uses ascii 0 termination
15:03:30 <nooga> today i thought about a graphical esolang based on curves
15:03:57 <nullkuhl> oerjan: +[,[-<+>>+<]>----------]<<<[.<]
15:04:08 <nooga> that go through some specific points and fork etc.
15:04:11 <oerjan> yeah that's a bit more believable :D
15:04:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Wherein the words "holistic" and "vibration" are fundamental concepts.
15:05:07 <nullkuhl> oerjan: do you know how to multiply 2 numbers together separated by asci 10
15:05:14 <oerjan> hm that [-] in EgoBot's version seems redundant to me. maybe it's taken from one that could be repeated for several lines
15:05:57 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe it's written by an obsessively tidy person.
15:05:59 <oerjan> nullkuhl: in decimal? that's a bit more awkward.
15:06:42 <oerjan> nothing impossible, of course
15:09:13 <oerjan> the printing out again may be the most awkward bit, since it needs to convert back to decimal
15:10:14 <fizzie> oerjan: You could do the whole math in decimal; or at least in base-10 digit-per-cell format. The task needs multi-cell numbers anyway.
15:10:48 <oerjan> um i was imagining ignoring overflow here :D
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15:12:10 <oerjan> the divmod algorithm from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#Divmod_algorithm may be a useful building block in any case
15:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I was thinking that objects have some kind of waveform associated, which interacts with all of the other objects. Or something.
15:13:35 <oerjan> nullkuhl: mind you i'm too lazy to actually write this ;D
15:15:10 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: the problem with such complicated ideas is that they have to be converted to a simpler form
15:15:27 <nooga> and this form would be probably some kind of pretty basic, boring esolang
15:24:15 <oerjan> no simplification <=> use actual quantum field theory, with your objects being made out of particles
15:25:04 * oerjan points out in advance that he doesn't actually know quantum field theory
15:26:33 <Phantom_Hoover> And using *actual* quantum field theory makes it less New Agey.
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15:39:10 <quintopia> oerjan: what is the bot policy for #esoteric?
15:40:25 <oerjan> it's of course frequently broken :D
15:40:59 <quintopia> so anyone may bring in a bot as long as it isn't annoying-as-shit?
15:42:25 <oerjan> anything implementing/implemented in esolangs is of course positively encouraged
15:43:06 <quintopia> but egobot pretty much already implements all the 1D esolangs right?
15:43:24 <oerjan> i'm not sure it implements _all_...
15:43:35 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:43:45 <oerjan> it even has some 2d ones, i think. it can run from web pages after all
15:43:46 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
15:44:05 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
15:44:21 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
15:44:23 <EgoBot> 3.14159265358979323844
15:44:55 <quintopia> so, wait, i could tack my own interpreters onto egobot's list?
15:44:57 <EgoBot> Hellu, vurld! Bork Bork Bork!
15:44:58 <oerjan> quintopia: EgoBot distinguishes between languages and user interpreters, with the latter being implemented by anyone in the former.
15:45:33 <EgoBot> sh read p; if [ "x$p" = "x" ]; then p=5; fi; echo "scale=$p; a(1)*4;" | BC_LINE_LENGTH=490 bc -l | tr -d '\\'
15:45:38 <oerjan> Gregor has at times planned to make that recursive but hasn't found a good design for doing so
15:45:40 <quintopia> oerjan: can anyone add a new language?
15:46:48 <oerjan> quintopia: that requires modifying the EgoBot repository, afaik. but i'm sure Gregor accepts reasonable patches.
15:47:25 <quintopia> crap i should have left a long time ago
15:47:29 <oerjan> however HackEgo is the one intended for being near completely user modifiable. for some reason we haven't added esolangs to it though.
15:47:49 <Gregor> oerjan: Because I'm too lazy to get the ball rolling on that process.
15:47:56 <Gregor> `run bash -c 'echo USE MEEEEEEE'
15:48:33 <quintopia> how would one go about making a usermod bot that can't be broken by anyone? seems like you have to limit mods to sandboxed things that can be killed when they misbehave
15:48:41 <quintopia> or you can trust people and shoot them if they fuck it up
15:48:50 <Gregor> CAN'T be broken, or CAN be fixed?
15:49:06 <Gregor> HackEgo's userland is stored in a Mercurial repository, and any changes can be reverted by anyway.
15:49:11 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:49:43 <quintopia> oh, right, the repository is external to the bot making it editable even when the bot is down
15:49:51 <quintopia> but can anyone reboot the bot if down?
15:49:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought HackEgo had the clever replacement libc thing?
15:50:13 <Gregor> quintopia: Feel free to try taking down the bot, you won't succeed :P
15:50:19 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, not mine.
15:50:37 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Feel free to try something at least BORDERLINE clever X_X
15:51:05 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
15:51:14 <HackEgo> cpp \ firmware \ init \ ld-2.11.2.so \ ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 \ libBrokenLocale-2.11.2.so \ libBrokenLocale.so.1 \ libSegFault.so \ libacl.so.1 \ libacl.so.1.1.0 \ libanl-2.11.2.so \ libanl.so.1 \ libattr.so.1 \ libattr.so.1.1.0 \ libblkid.so.1 \ libblkid.so.1.1.0 \ libbsd.so.0 \ libbsd.so.0.2.0 \ libbz2.so.1 \ libbz2.so.1.0
15:51:22 <ais523> the sensible thing to do would be to find out what sandboxing system it uses, then google for exploits in it
15:51:24 <oerjan> quintopia: actually HackEgo as an ugly history of frequently locking up so Gregor had to restart it, but this is completely unrelated to anyone trying to hack it. also i think he managed to finally fix that.
15:51:35 <Gregor> oerjan: I fixed that, yes :P
15:51:54 <quintopia> gregor: wouldn't editing the repo to include a piece of code that runs a tight infinite loop and triggering it accomplish something like that?
15:52:13 <Gregor> `run while true; do echo; done
15:52:13 <ais523> `run while true; do done;
15:52:22 <HackEgo> \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
15:52:25 <ais523> heh, we wrote almost the same program
15:52:32 <ais523> my infinite loop's tighter than Gregor's
15:52:32 <Gregor> ais523: Except mine worked :P
15:52:36 <ais523> but it ended pretty quickly
15:52:44 <ais523> `run while true; do true; done
15:52:47 <Gregor> ais523: That's because it was not correct code :P
15:53:01 <ais523> I blame it on bash insisting that loops contain at least one statement
15:53:02 <quintopia> gregor: yes, except modifying the bot directly to remove the termination check
15:53:04 <ais523> hmm, I haven't got a no output yet
15:53:14 <ais523> quintopia: the bot can't edit its own source
15:53:27 <Gregor> quintopia: That fshg is 1) only accessible via this interface, you can't push, and 2) doesn't include the bot itself, just the things contained within it.
15:53:28 <ais523> you could hack Gregor's computer and edit the bot, I suppose, but that's cheating
15:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> What was that language that formed a group over concatenation?
15:53:50 <quintopia> so it's not completely usermod and the code it can run is sandboxed
15:53:59 <ais523> Gregor: I still haven't got a "No output."
15:54:01 <Gregor> quintopia: Of course. I am BORDERLINE sane :P
15:54:09 <Gregor> ais523: It only gets killed after 30 seconds.
15:54:12 <ais523> does it not come up if an infinite loop gets terminated?
15:54:21 <ais523> (I think it's more than 30 seconds or so)
15:54:22 <Gregor> ais523: Mine got killed faster for overusing output, not infinite looping ;)
15:54:30 <Gregor> ais523: After 30 seconds ON THE CPU, that is.
15:54:35 <ais523> which is why I wanted a no-output version
15:54:44 <Gregor> ais523: And they're throttled down so much they haven't gotten 30 seconds yet :P
15:55:34 <ais523> I've probably screwed it up again haven't I
15:55:36 <Gregor> quintopia: There's also http://hackiki.org/ , the Wiki version of Hackbot :)
15:55:52 <ais523> although I'd imagine a forkbomb would get killed very quickly anyway
15:56:19 <ais523> `run a(){while true; do a|a&; done};a
15:56:39 <ais523> I'm just curious as to whether it kills it immediately or slowly
15:56:48 <Gregor> ais523: Just standard ulimits.
15:56:51 <ais523> `run a(){while true; do a&; done};a
15:57:04 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not without the third colon
15:57:17 <ais523> the issue with that forkbomb is that it's easily outcompeted; the while-loop version isn't
15:57:34 <ais523> you can block it with a counterbomb that's greedier with PIDs and that locks them after it uses them
15:57:39 <ais523> that clears itself up after 30 seconds or so
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16:02:56 <ais523> fizzie: heh, your Befunge C-style-constants beat the Java all the way up to the deadline (and is still winning)
16:04:15 <ais523> even though the Java was improved by 1 byte
16:04:59 <oerjan> golfing with java is a bit like the paralympics, no?
16:05:16 <nooga> almost like golfing with pascal
16:05:41 <nooga> the truth is that i first learned some pascal
16:06:05 <fizzie> nooga: The Befunge implementation did, in fact, also beat Pascal.
16:06:15 <fizzie> (Java 116 bytes, Pascal 130.)
16:06:25 <nooga> turbo pascal 6.0 was only programming thingy on my dad's computer was TP under DOS
16:07:09 <fizzie> They all seem to use the "enum plus instance constructor" trick.
16:07:28 <ais523> what, even the Befunge?
16:07:38 <fizzie> Well, not that. But all (two) Java ones.
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16:07:46 <oerjan> there's probably a fingerprint for that.
16:08:10 <fizzie> oerjan: It's 93, though.
16:08:23 <fizzie> (Party like it's '93.)
16:08:39 <ais523> before or after September?
16:09:00 <fizzie> The single-byte playfield cells of 93 killed my fraction-simplification Befunge solution. :/
16:10:03 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, my old school used that as their only programming thingy.
16:10:27 <fizzie> ais523: I like that "print eval and print chop for readline" alpha-only Perl solution.
16:10:58 <ais523> getting the newline was the hard bit
16:11:12 <ais523> so I grab it from the last character of each line as it comes past
16:12:32 <fizzie> I remember having a bug of the "$s = chop $s;" variety once; it's not immediately intuitive that it returns the chopped bit and actually modifies the passed variable.
16:14:28 <ais523> I think that's why it was mostly deprecated in favour of chomp
16:15:27 <fizzie> I'm not sure chomp's very much saner; it returns the number of characters removed, and also modifies the string.
16:15:50 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: chop removes the last character always, chomp only if (simplified) there actually is a newline there.
16:16:00 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: i taught pascal in high school, like huh, 5 years ago
16:16:10 <nooga> because the IT teacher couldn't
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16:19:52 <Phantom_Hoover> For the first 3 years, computing was mandatory, then nothing for 2 years, and then you could optionally do it in 6th year.
16:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> To quote a friend, they spent large amounts of money on maintaining a computing department in which computing was not taught.
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17:12:52 <Vorpal> ais523, saw in #nethack the past few minutes?
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17:13:31 <oerjan> the #nethack chainsaw massacre
17:15:21 <ais523> Vorpal: I wasn't paying attention
17:30:08 <quintopia> what are all the bot command characters for this chan?
17:31:18 <oerjan> fungot always was a little special.
17:31:18 <fungot> oerjan: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...!
17:31:24 <fizzie> ~ is a logical, at-the-moment free one.
17:31:57 <fizzie> Sure, but they don't seem so botty to me. :p
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17:32:16 <fizzie> Wasn't there something that used to use backslash?
17:32:19 <quintopia> i have known bots that use $ as the command character and have a "catch-all" response
17:32:27 <quintopia> which makes talking about money fun sometimes
17:32:39 <fizzie> I have known bots that have a catch-all response to everything that ends in "?".
17:32:45 <fizzie> Makes being interrogative fun sometimes.
17:33:06 <quintopia> statements starting with $ come up much less frequently in normal speech
17:33:35 <fizzie> We also have that \o/ script thing.
17:34:11 <oerjan> myndzi\: wth did you do to its legs
17:35:09 <pikhq> The penis fell off.
17:37:51 <oerjan> he must have removed that one :(
17:37:54 <fizzie> It should have just one space; don't know why your first \m/ \m/ didn't work.
17:38:03 <fizzie> Oh, it's too wide to start so early.
17:38:34 <fizzie> Also the \ in myndzi's nick, that's not there usually.
17:38:43 <oerjan> ...they don't go to the left of the hands
17:39:03 <oerjan> true but i added a space at the front
17:39:16 <fizzie> Yes, I noticed that. Still, I think it's about the placement.
17:39:34 <fizzie> Aah, so it can potentially have wider forms.
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17:54:50 * Sgeo would rather be using Chromium
17:54:55 <Sgeo> But somehow, it's crashy
17:55:01 <quintopia> // sometimes I believe compiler ignores all my comments
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18:01:56 <oerjan> now what was it again ->
18:03:12 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: couldn't be worse than last friday's
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18:04:32 <Phantom_Hoover> That one makes Munro look like such an idiot that ESR could reasonably look down on him.
18:05:08 <quintopia> i think the steady decline of xkcd has finally reached the tipping point, and is now in a sharp drastic decline, either into oblivion or something completely but not as crappy as an unfunny stickfigure webcomic
18:06:55 <quintopia> well, if we call its heyday an orgasm and the current decline a refractory period, then it follows that it is "too late to pull out"
18:07:10 <quintopia> but i don't really think it is. i think the fans would welcome a change of format at this point.
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18:14:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, he could stop trying to be SMBC but with worse art and jokes, that would definitely be a start.
18:15:34 <quintopia> s/SMBC/every other webcomic that doesn't suck/
18:17:12 <quintopia> i don't see a reason to pick that one out
18:17:23 <quintopia> he steals jokes from other webcomics all over the place
18:22:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but in terms of the format, it's basically SMBC sans art.
18:22:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. panel showing strange situation, and text below explaining it, conveying the joke.
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18:29:47 <quintopia> you could be right. it looks like convergent evolution to me, but i've no way to prove he didn't deliberately copycat the formet
18:30:22 <quintopia> on the other hand, there are only so many ways to do a gag-a-day comic with little in the way of recurring characters
18:32:25 <Vorpal> hm anyone has a clue to fix a windows computer where the password database is completely fucked? On Linux it would be a simple case of replacing /etc/shadow and /etc/passwd from a livecd...
18:34:11 <quintopia> starting with a recovery disk is a good idea
18:34:23 <quintopia> no idea what files need to be modified/restored
18:36:00 <fizzie> There are those password-resetting rescue disks, perhaps one of them would work. (They might assume an existing, well-formatted user database, though.)
18:36:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, I do not know if it is well-formatted. Also hm, laptop without cd drive... this might get tricky
18:36:55 <fizzie> Also the XP installer *might* do something sensible to it. (Then again, it might just break everything else too.)
18:38:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, the thing has SP3. Doesn't windows xp have a recovery console thingy on the cd? I can only find a SP2 cd though
18:39:11 <fizzie> I remember the win2k recovery console; don't quite recall what it could do, and where it was.
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18:39:45 <fizzie> I think I've seen references to http://trinityhome.org/ too; it should be USB-stickable.
18:40:10 * Sgeo wants a Windows system on USB
18:41:06 <fizzie> Yeah, the recovery console was bootable from the installer, with the "repair" option.
18:42:31 <Vorpal> hm, I wonder if an usb cd drive would work..
18:42:58 <fizzie> It might not be terribly useful; it had a fixboot/fixmbr boot sector fixes, but I don't think much else.
18:46:40 <fizzie> chntpw -- http://pogostick.net/~pnh/ntpasswd/ -- has its own bootdisk, which might be smaller; don't see a USB stick option there. Based on the descriptions it may be that it's not of much help if the SAM stuff is completely broken.
18:48:17 <Vorpal> wtf, it can boot from a linux live cd from the usb cd drive but it refuses to boot from the windows cd
18:48:45 <quintopia> you can probably fix it from linux if you know what needs to be fixed.
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18:49:05 <quintopia> there may not be prebuilt tools for that purpose though :/
18:50:15 <quintopia> not that that had any informational content, but I just wanted to say it because, in general, you would be a much cooler person if you did it that way.
18:58:18 <Sgeo> If you can boot from one medium, you can boot from any
19:00:25 <lifthrasiir> Is there any way to install osx without using DVD?
19:01:32 <lifthrasiir> My DVD drive in macbook is so broken that every DVD stuck in the middle
19:04:37 <Vorpal> the recovery console wants a password (finally got the drive to work on that cd)
19:06:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: One of chntpw's features is to twiddle the registry so that the recovery console won't ask for a pwd.
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19:16:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, I used a tool on sysrescue (recommended boot cd!) to reset admin password
19:17:03 <Vorpal> lets see if it works...
19:17:13 <Vorpal> well, now I got past login screen
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19:25:17 <lifthrasiir> I just started wondering how big the smallest brainfuck interpreter in C is...
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19:27:04 <Vorpal> lifthrasiir, I think you could make a "stupid" one rather short
19:27:12 <Vorpal> one that searched the string for [ and ]
19:27:31 <Vorpal> which would make skipping loop and re-running loop O(n) XD
19:28:10 <lifthrasiir> Vorpal: that is acceptable; it just has to run for well-and-reasonably-defined subset of programs
19:29:09 <lifthrasiir> I think it is easy to get it under 200 bytes, will it fit in tweets? ;)
19:30:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, funny it still refuses login outside safe mode...
19:31:11 <Vorpal> time for recovery console (I set that thing for it too)
19:35:31 <fizzie> I have a four-line one somewhere, I think.
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19:35:44 <fizzie> And it's not the most compact I've seen.
19:36:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you write it?
19:36:09 <fizzie> How big were tweets again? 140 chars?
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19:36:28 <fizzie> We were sort of C-golfing with friends.
19:36:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I think 2-line should be doable. One for #include<stdio.h>, then the rest of the program on the next line
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19:37:28 <alise> 19:13:29 <myndzi> on Windows at least (it sounds like maybe you aren't on windows?) you can run down to 0 bytes HD space left and get no warning
19:37:28 <alise> 19:13:37 <myndzi> just a bunch of bizarre crap starts happening
19:37:28 <alise> 19:13:46 <myndzi> it doesn't say HAY JACKASS DELETE SOME FILES or anything
19:37:31 <alise> sure does by default
19:37:45 <alise> 19:43:36 * pikhq notes that it would be really silly to have FLACs of all the Final Fantasy soundtracks
19:37:51 <alise> noo, store them as native synthesiser files
19:38:05 <alise> and have the chips in the computer
19:38:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, well, 'line' here means 80 chars; and no need to include anything when golfing, implicit declarations are good enough.
19:38:37 <fizzie> main(j,a,n)int*a;{unsigned short p=-1;char*r=calloc(n=p+1,6),*i=r+n,**k
19:38:37 <fizzie> =i+n;for(read(open(*++a,0),i,p);j<0?*i-91?*i-93?:--n||(j=-j):++n:(n=*i
19:38:37 <fizzie> -43)?n-2?n-19?n-17?n-3?n-1?n-48?n-50?:p[r]?i=k[j]:j--:p[r]?k[++j]=i:(
19:38:37 <fizzie> n=1,j=-j):read(0,r+p,1):putchar(p[r]):p--:p++:p[r]--:p[r]++,*i++;);}
19:38:49 <fizzie> That is what it seems to have ended up as.
19:38:49 <alise> 20:55:39 * pikhq downloads a 33 gig music torrent
19:38:53 <alise> want connection please
19:39:12 <Sgeo> .torrent files should not be 33gb\
19:39:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought pikhq's connection was equivalent to trying to suck bits through a leaky straw.
19:39:41 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I moved *months* ago.
19:39:53 <Vorpal> alise, 33 GB? All uncompressed .wav? Or is he trying to collect all music (like he did for all snes ROMs iirc? Or was that someone else?)
19:39:58 <pikhq> alise: http://www.bakabt.com/130907-Final_Fantasy_Lossless_Music_Collection.html
19:40:06 <alise> pikhq: no i mean your collection
19:40:16 <Sgeo> pikhq, weren't you just explaining that that's a silly thing to do?
19:40:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, you could collect all music in digital form ever made. Like you did collect all ROMs
19:40:30 <alise> Sgeo: not if you're a nerd about quality
19:40:35 <pikhq> Sgeo: I then discovered it's a royal pain to get good players for it.
19:40:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, what is the format?
19:41:02 <pikhq> alise: As opposed to emulating the actual synthesizers. Which as it turns out is a pain to do well.
19:41:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, how is hard to get good players for flac?
19:41:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: FLAC? *Easy*.
19:41:26 <alise> pikhq: better to run them through the actual consoles
19:41:29 <alise> analogue subtleties
19:41:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, um, mplayer? vlc? A shitload of other programs?
19:41:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: NSF, however, is a pain to play well.
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19:42:10 <Sgeo> How do I dismiss GNOME notifications?
19:42:19 <alise> Sgeo: you mean notify-osd notifications
19:42:36 <pikhq> It's an NES ROM with just code for the audio chip.
19:42:40 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: what is r for? r will get calloc(0,6) which is not realloc'ed later so it is just unused...
19:42:48 <Sgeo> It is kind of nice that they don't block what's behind them, I guess
19:42:50 <pikhq> You could, in fact, stick it on a cart and play it on a real NES.
19:43:05 <alise> Sgeo: not being able to dismiss them is a security feature
19:43:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, iirc they go away if you move the mouse above them
19:43:15 <alise> in that it makes people want to dismiss every one of them after they've read them, which is a waste of time
19:43:20 <alise> the notifications are meant to be completely passive
19:43:31 <alise> Vorpal: well, almost (very translucent) but they come back if you move out
19:43:44 <alise> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD
19:43:44 <Sgeo> You can even click behind them!
19:43:49 <Vorpal> alise, yes they come back, also they don't go translucent here?
19:43:52 <alise> Sgeo: again, very intentional
19:43:57 <Vorpal> alise, maybe it depends on compositing?
19:43:58 <alise> Vorpal: compositing not enabled, probably
19:44:01 <Sgeo> That's a thing I like
19:44:13 <Vorpal> alise, indeed not enabled. It fucked up with virtualbox 3D accel last I tried
19:44:25 <fizzie> lifthrasiir: That's not calloc(0,6), that's calloc(65536,6).
19:45:31 <lifthrasiir> but then the global variable char r[65536*6]; will be a lot simpler and shorter.
19:45:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, can that bf interpreter successfully run lostking?
19:45:51 <alise> lifthrasiir: that may segfault on start
19:45:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, and what about the mandelbrot
19:45:54 <alise> depending on your stack
19:46:07 <Vorpal> alise, global var != on stack
19:46:09 <pikhq> alise: Global -- it's not on the stack.
19:46:10 <alise> maybe too small to be an issue
19:46:28 <Vorpal> it will be in the .bss segment probably
19:46:35 <Sgeo> The page says that the bubbles should blur
19:46:41 <pikhq> When loaded, it'll be on the heap.
19:46:41 <Sgeo> They don't do that unless the mouse is over them
19:47:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that is when they should blur
19:47:15 <pikhq> Well, no, it'll be at a location the dynamic linker decides on.
19:47:25 <Vorpal> (well unless compositing is off, they they just go away completely)
19:47:29 <pikhq> s/dynamic linker/loader/
19:47:35 <pikhq> ... I'll just shut up now, okay?
19:48:15 <alise> Vorpal: specifically, they blur and go translucent in such a way as to make all text behind them perfectly legible
19:48:21 <alise> without making it look like it's just evaporated
19:48:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, well... I meant in the .bss segment in the ELF file. Obviously :P
19:48:36 <Vorpal> and I still think that will be the case on linux
19:49:20 <Vorpal> alise, I kind of prefer not using compositing though. Especially considering every time I tried it on every computer I tried it, it caused shit with some opengl stuff.
19:49:27 <Vorpal> maybe I'm just unlucky
19:49:35 <alise> i'm a lucky bastard, being on intel graphics
19:49:39 <alise> everything works perfectly
19:49:49 <alise> also a bit of luck involved
19:49:55 <alise> but as i said, lucky bastard
19:50:07 <Vorpal> alise, my laptop uses intel graphics, there it where it caused shit with virtualbox gust 3d accel
19:50:15 <fizzie> lifthrasiir: I use the large number later to put the actual program after the tape. But really, I make no claims that it couldn't be shortened.
19:50:20 <Sgeo> intel graphics
19:50:23 <Sgeo> YOu're joking, right?
19:50:36 <Vorpal> alise, and 3D in general is shitty there, when I play NWN on it, some textures go all white and missing. Only in the expansion packs though.
19:50:53 <alise> Sgeo: intel graphics are awesome
19:50:58 <alise> as long as you don't do heavy gaming
19:50:58 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: well then that's fine. I just want to know the lower bound of size of such programs.
19:51:02 <alise> their linux support is superb
19:51:09 <alise> since intel are all open-sourcey
19:51:12 <alise> with their drivers
19:51:14 <Vorpal> alise, NWN is hardly heavy by today's standards though :P
19:51:20 <alise> and it uses all the new-fangled kernel magic
19:51:31 <alise> Vorpal: yeah well that's just linux for you
19:51:39 <fizzie> lifthrasiir: I've seen at least one that was <3*80 chars.
19:51:53 <Vorpal> alise, nwn runs perfectly on my desktop with nvidia though
19:52:39 <Sgeo> Is nvidia still better than ATI when it comes to Linux stuff?
19:52:44 <alise> logging in to the latest astronomy picture of the day is awesome :)
19:52:50 <Vorpal> alise, on the other hand, xrandr can't rotate screen on nividia closed source drivers
19:52:53 <alise> Sgeo: that trend sharply reversed for a while, when ATI opened their specs
19:52:58 <alise> then it zig-zagged
19:53:00 <alise> now they're about equal
19:53:05 <alise> intel is still better
19:53:14 <Vorpal> alise, for everything but 3D, intel is better.
19:53:34 <Sgeo> ...please note that 3d is one thing I kind of desire
19:53:41 <Sgeo> It might not be that obvious
19:53:44 <Vorpal> Sgeo, basic 3D stuff works
19:53:48 <Sgeo> I never really talk about 3d stuff
19:53:51 <Vorpal> like, 3D plots in mathematica
19:54:07 <alise> 3d is intel is fine
19:54:11 <alise> Vorpal is extrapolating from one game ;)
19:54:17 <alise> and i've never seen another problem report
19:54:27 <Vorpal> alise, no, warzone2100 is all black on intel graphics
19:54:30 <Vorpal> or was last I tried it
19:54:42 <Vorpal> when I asked I got the answer that it was a bug in the intel drivers
19:54:44 <Sgeo> Will Portal work on Intel graphics?
19:54:58 <alise> not on highest settings. of course.
19:55:00 <Vorpal> alise, and last I checked flightgear didn't like intel graphics at all.
19:55:05 <alise> intel graphics are still on-board chips
19:55:10 <Sgeo> alise, presumably newer than 945GM?
19:55:16 <alise> From what I read on Phoronix Canonical really did screw up the Intel driver experience for Jaunty, resulting in poor performance and numerous problems.
19:55:16 <alise> Since everyone having Intel is running Jaunty with an Intel card (cards which are known to work under other distributions) I'll bet this is the problem.
19:55:22 <alise> for a problem report for warzone 2100
19:55:52 <Vorpal> alise, hm. last I checked warzone2100 on my laptop was on karmic, think it still had that issue there
19:56:01 <alise> later there's "This is as much a problem with the Intel drivers having poor OpenGL support" but then rebutted:
19:56:04 <alise> "That would be a good point EvilGuru if Warzone worked in previous Ubuntu versions, or if other games exhibited similar problems."
19:56:10 <alise> Vorpal: well, you know ubuntu.
19:56:18 <alise> they don't solve much in /one/ release.
19:56:59 <alise> hrm, what can i do to get info about my gfx card? just the model name
19:57:01 <alise> do i need glxinfo?
19:57:15 * Sgeo wishes he wasn't stuck with Firefox
19:57:45 <alise> Vorpal: warzone 2100 main menu WFM; do I need to start a game?
19:57:53 <Vorpal> alise, yes you need to start a game
19:57:57 <Sgeo> alise, Flash crashes
19:58:05 <Vorpal> alise, and get past any cut scene
19:58:09 <Sgeo> I think related to memory issues
19:58:09 <alise> http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap950616.html ;; totally glad I never automated astronomy picture of the day wallpaper-setting until two days ago
19:58:16 <Vorpal> (depends on if you installed cut scene data iirc)
19:58:17 <Sgeo> Is Firefox any lighter memory-wise than Chrome?
19:58:21 <alise> don't think i've ever had a square 204x204 monitor
19:58:23 <Sgeo> It would explain why Firefox works so much better
19:58:27 <alise> Sgeo: no, firefox is a huge memory hog.
19:58:38 <alise> i strongly suspect your hardware is fucked up to the point of instability.
19:58:43 <alise> try throwing the computer out of the window
19:58:51 <Sgeo> Keep in mind I have no swap space
19:58:53 <alise> Vorpal: groan; how can i skip a cut scene?
19:58:58 <Sgeo> All memory is physical
19:59:02 <alise> but i didn't use to
19:59:02 <Sgeo> And I just have 1GB
19:59:06 <Vorpal> alise, um is that the awesome video you mean?
19:59:10 <alise> -/+ buffers/cache: 709100 3184864
19:59:12 <Vorpal> alise, I suspect esc will work
19:59:14 <alise> i'm only using 70.9 MiB right now
19:59:50 <Vorpal> alise, if you don't have the videos installed, then it will dump you more or less straight into the game iirc
20:00:20 <alise> works fine, full 1366x768 resolution
20:00:24 <alise> no glitches at all
20:00:30 <Sgeo> I'd say FlashBlock actually blocks Flash on Firefox, and just hides it on Chrome, but someone said that that's not the case anymore
20:00:42 <Vorpal> alise, I blame ubuntu and/or older kernel versions then
20:00:43 <alise> Sgeo: you are really good at cargo-culting
20:00:53 <alise> Vorpal: well i'm on ubuntu :P now let's see what card i have
20:01:38 <Vorpal> "VGA compatible controller" perhaps or "Display Controller"
20:01:39 <Sgeo> Any CD burner programs that let me copy a CD without having HD space and without storing the whole thing in memory?
20:01:46 <Sgeo> e.g. Put in disc 1, read a bit
20:01:48 <alise> "Oh well, I'm sure I want glxinfo anyway."
20:01:50 <Sgeo> Disc 2, write a bit
20:01:57 <Sgeo> disc 1, read a bit
20:01:58 <alise> more like a meg or so at a time
20:02:06 <Sgeo> Not that sort of bit
20:02:13 <alise> dd on CDs is probably LOLUNRELIABLE but there you go
20:02:15 <Sgeo> "for a small amount"
20:02:18 <alise> (can you write to a CD-R file on linux?)
20:02:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo, as in physically impossible
20:02:36 <alise> Vorpal: it probably is, with a lot of hacks
20:02:38 <Vorpal> considering how cds work
20:02:39 <alise> and going over old data a lot
20:02:51 <Vorpal> alise, well.. with CD-RW you could
20:02:58 <pikhq> alise: dd on CDs works just fine unless there's really notable scratches on the disc.
20:03:12 <Vorpal> alise, but with CD-R, you can't you would need to make a new track, and write in track-at-once mode
20:03:13 <pikhq> alise: (to the point that you get file read errors if you mount it)
20:03:14 <alise> 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 07)
20:03:14 <alise> 00:02.1 Display controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 07)
20:03:20 <pikhq> alise: ddrescue can help there.
20:03:32 <alise> Vorpal: pipe dd to dd in a way, then?
20:03:38 <alise> i.e. have it go continuously
20:03:49 <alise> you'd have to buffer an entire track?
20:03:56 <Vorpal> well you could copy cd with *two devices*
20:03:58 <pikhq> ... Wait, wait, wait. Sgeo: You want to do *that*? That's not going to work.
20:03:59 <Vorpal> that would work of course
20:04:03 <alise> that's what he meant
20:04:10 <Vorpal> I thought he meant same device
20:04:12 <alise> Sgeo: surely you meant with two drives
20:04:25 <Sgeo> I meant I had wishful thinking
20:04:32 <pikhq> Sgeo: CDs don't work that way.
20:04:54 <Sgeo> Ok ok, I get the point
20:05:01 <Vorpal> you have to write at least a track at once. And from what I remember... TAO mode is not very reliable
20:05:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: TAO is perfectly reliable.
20:05:14 <Sgeo> And got it sometime around <Vorpal> Sgeo, not possible.
20:05:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, haven't you got a replacement hdd and rescued the old one already?
20:05:24 <pikhq> It just has certain limitations on doing audio.
20:05:26 <Sgeo> I started the rescue of the old one
20:05:33 <Sgeo> I want to continue it on my old computer
20:06:05 <Sgeo> Will the version of ddrescue that Parted Magic has work with what I've already done on Ubuntu?
20:06:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: Which ddrescue is it?
20:07:02 <alise> ubuntu is gnu ddrescue
20:07:21 <Sgeo> I _think_ Parted Magic's is also GNU
20:07:23 <alise> parted magic, i fear the worst.
20:07:25 <Sgeo> the binary has no _
20:07:34 <alise> should be fine then. also, your disk is way beyond any kind of recovery, dude.
20:07:47 <alise> unless you want to hex exit the resulting disk image to find your data
20:07:55 <alise> but you seem to have been going just fine in life without it
20:08:25 <Sgeo> Doesn't um.. .. some thingy look through the image for possible files?
20:09:20 <alise> Not that I know of, at least.
20:09:29 <alise> Maybe those ext3grep things, but they're just for deleted files, not corrupted file systems.
20:09:45 <alise> There's also the fact that your partition table seems to be fucked up, a whole world of fun.
20:09:50 <pikhq> Could hack something up with libext2.
20:10:17 <Sgeo> I know Parted Magic has something that does that
20:11:24 <alise> parted magic gave me a pony then fellated my toaster
20:11:27 <alise> all before breakfast
20:11:37 <alise> pikhq: he has no ext2
20:11:48 <alise> YAY WUBI, THE SANEST PROGRAM IN EXISTENCE
20:12:09 <alise> Because keeping an ext3/4 partition as a file on an NTFS filesystem and then booting to it is a deliriously good idea!
20:12:40 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]).
20:12:47 <Sgeo> alise, when will you resume reading FS?
20:12:57 <alise> this weekend prolly
20:13:42 <alise> "How to Determine Which Graphics Card You Have on Ubuntu"
20:13:47 <alise> Anneliese Hinds said
20:13:54 <alise> I'm not sure what Ubuntu is but if I ever need to know about the graphics card I will certainly remember this article.
20:14:41 <alise> (i'm trying to get something a bit more specific than the lspci line)
20:15:50 <alise> is there something like grep that just highlights the line like with --colour=force?
20:15:57 <Vorpal> alise, oh he uses ntfs? that will be tricky to recover with
20:16:16 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, ext3 or fat and it would have been easy
20:16:54 <Vorpal> alise, http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk maybe on the image. That is about all I can think of.
20:17:22 <fizzie> "less /var/log/Xorg.0.log" tends to have the most specific gfx card info.
20:18:04 <Vorpal> anyway, running ddrescue on a 350 GB disk took about 10 hours iirc? Though it could do the majority rather fast, only a few sectors were damaged and needed re-read with smaller chunk size to get the good bits back
20:18:44 <alise> fizzie: oh, of course
20:18:53 <alise> Vorpal: Sgeo cancelled it when he realised it was going to take HOURS upon HOURS
20:19:03 <Vorpal> <alise> is there something like grep that just highlights the line like with --colour=force? <-- what do you mean?
20:19:05 <alise> as opposed to rigorously copying a severely damaged disk in, say, three minutes
20:19:20 <Sgeo> alise, more like, a week
20:19:21 <Vorpal> alise, grep --color=force works iirc (yes it uses US spelling afaik)
20:19:23 <alise> Vorpal: well, here grep highlights the match with a colour and bold
20:19:28 <alise> Vorpal: (--colour works too)
20:19:30 <alise> Vorpal: but i want
20:19:34 <alise> just with it highlighted
20:19:37 <alise> grep only shows the lines, plus context
20:19:42 <alise> i want the whole document, with the matches highlighted
20:19:48 <alise> Vorpal: that would fail horribly for multiple matches
20:20:15 <pikhq> alise: Waitwaitwait, he has a broken *NTFS* file system?
20:20:18 <Vorpal> alise, how so? Afaik multiple matches where the context overlaps works just fine
20:20:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, there is testdisk. Could work
20:20:57 <pikhq> Unless you're going to hex edit or grep the drive for anything you want to recover, give up now.
20:21:09 <Vorpal> a very strange name for that tool
20:21:18 <Vorpal> should be called "undel" or something
20:21:19 <Sgeo> I _saw_ files when playing with TestDisk
20:21:19 <alise> "Testing disk... ... ...yup, it's broken."
20:21:24 <Sgeo> And the directory structure
20:21:26 <alise> you played with testdisk?
20:21:29 <alise> before rescuing the image?
20:21:30 <alise> on the actual drive?
20:21:33 <alise> LOL YOU'RE FUCKING RETARDED
20:21:36 <Vorpal> alise, yes he said so before
20:21:44 <Vorpal> and I told him back then he was an idiot doing it
20:21:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: Dude, you are a fucking *moron* when it comes to data recovery.
20:22:12 <Vorpal> he should just start in the morning with running ddrescue, then leave it
20:22:27 <alise> Sgeo: did you make sure to stomp on the drive three times and then douse it with coca-cola? this helps to liquidate the parts, meaning there'll be less scratching, making recovery easier
20:22:27 <Vorpal> until done, then do a second pass if needed as recommended by the manual
20:22:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: The whole *point* of doing the ddrescue is so you can play with a disk image instead of *ruining things more*.
20:23:08 <pikhq> Did you make sure to hit the drive with a baseball bat for a bit? Perhaps get a home run?
20:23:33 <alise> (--) intel(0): Chipset: "GM45"
20:24:04 <Vorpal> alise, GM45 looks plausible
20:24:06 <alise> The Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset, featuring the Mobile Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator (GMA) 4500MHD, delivers:
20:24:06 <alise> Blu-ray* logo capable HD video playback, with native support for Blu-ray drives
20:24:06 <alise> Great 3D graphics performance, delivering over 3X scores on 3D Mark* 06◊
20:24:06 <alise> Intel® Clear Video Technology for excellent video quality
20:24:16 <alise> Best integrated card evar
20:24:38 <alise> Vorpal: "our previous model in this range", probably
20:24:54 <alise> or, if the company is evil, "our least significant competitor's lowest model purposefully detuned" :-)
20:24:56 <Vorpal> alise, which is still waaay below nvidia or ati :P
20:25:14 <alise> it probably gets a damn good 3d mark for laptops
20:25:26 <alise> i imagine integrated cards are starting to catch up.
20:25:39 <Vorpal> alise, probably worse than laptops with geforce or similar
20:25:43 <Vorpal> there are such laptops
20:25:45 <alise> Vorpal: recent geforce, sure.
20:25:50 <alise> they also have 3 seconds battery life :)
20:25:58 <alise> anyway, i wouldn't play a super-mega-HD-3D game on my laptop.
20:26:00 <Vorpal> wrt evil: it is well known intel is evil. About every large enough company is.
20:26:12 <alise> keyboard insufficiently hefty, display insufficiently level and insufficiently large.
20:26:16 <Vorpal> alise, HD-HDR-3D you mean :P
20:26:24 <alise> this is why people have gaming computers :)
20:26:39 <alise> Vorpal: intel are evil but less evil than a lot of other companies
20:26:46 <alise> since they don't do an awful lot of marketing direct to the customer
20:26:59 -!- alise has left (?).
20:27:01 -!- alise has joined.
20:27:05 <alise> WHAT KEYBOARD SHORTCUT DOES THAT
20:27:07 <alise> what i was going to say is
20:27:24 <alise> the "don't use AMD on this product line or we'll fuck you in the ass" sucked shit
20:27:35 <alise> but i imagine that's well away from even the PR/marketing department
20:27:43 <alise> (which would have come up with the 3x line)
20:28:21 <alise> there are those ruminations about on-CPU DRM, but what company hasn't researched something equally disgusting?
20:28:33 <alise> where's my Microsoft-backed Trusted Computing fascist state?
20:28:43 <alise> what would improve /my/ image of Intel is if they put VT-x on the lower-end processors
20:29:07 <Sgeo> VT-x == that virtualization thing, right?
20:29:30 <pikhq> alise: Intel & Microsoft were actually trying to *get* Trusted Computing going.
20:29:31 <Sgeo> How many end-users really care. I guess
20:29:41 <alise> pikhq: And they didn't.
20:29:44 <alise> It's always the same story.
20:29:52 <alise> Sgeo: a windows 7 user using XP Mode? :)
20:29:55 <alise> admittedly, that's a grand total of 0.4
20:30:10 <pikhq> alise: It fell through because only a complete idiot of an IT department would purchase it, and the consumer idiot is insufficiently profitable.
20:30:10 <alise> anyway, intel procs have a lot of things the end user doesn't directly care about
20:30:12 <alise> they're not end-user products
20:30:19 <alise> that's sort of the point
20:30:56 <alise> "The Trusted Computing Group (TCG), successor to the Trusted Computing Platform Alliance (TCPA), is an initiative started by AMD, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Intel, and Microsoft to implement Trusted Computing. Many others followed."
20:31:09 <alise> Is that the glorious other processor company I see before me?
20:31:25 <pikhq> And yeah, Microsoft & Intel are merely the major leaders in the clusterfuck of stupidity.
20:31:41 <pikhq> It's pretty much every tech company that thinks that they can make bits uncopiable.
20:31:57 <alise> AMD are probably slightly less evil than Intel, but I have a feeling that's a very thoroughly preserved and crafted image
20:32:11 <alise> utilising their history as the guys who took intel processors and cloned them and made them better
20:32:11 <Sgeo> And make alternative OSes not runnable?
20:32:28 <alise> pikhq: besides, AMD have forgotten how to make processors recently :)
20:32:36 <pikhq> AMD's lesser evil comes courtesy of being the underdog in the market.
20:32:49 <alise> they're not that much of an underdog now, though
20:33:00 <Sgeo> Hmm, what was the exact command I ran?
20:33:04 <alise> i have a feeling that at some point the PR department made the VERY thought-out decision to carefully preserve this underdog image
20:33:05 <Sgeo> It should be in the logs
20:33:08 <alise> even as they grow to behemoth size
20:33:24 <pikhq> Well, yeah, with ATi now they are actually more than "those guys that just do 10% of x86 CPUs".
20:33:33 <alise> pikhq: the ATI brand is dead now :)
20:33:41 <alise> Sgeo: --direct --max-retries=3
20:34:02 <alise> pikhq: also, i'm pretty sure the lowercase i is just a logotype convention, not the name of the brand
20:34:02 <pikhq> Still, they're kinda small in comparison to the behemoth that is Intel.
20:34:20 <Sgeo> alise, no, that's after I run N1> ddrescue --no-split /dev/sda imagefile logfile
20:34:39 <alise> and then you try --retrim along with that
20:34:46 <alise> and then you cry and increase max-retries hopelessly
20:34:47 <Sgeo> You pastied something
20:34:49 <Vorpal> windows is a lot snappier when run in safe mode
20:34:52 <alise> it was just those instructions
20:35:13 <alise> Vorpal: With MiniXP, it's like always running in safe mode, but without the ugly safe mode background watermark!
20:35:15 <Sgeo> Anyways, I guess I'll go open my old comp
20:35:20 <alise> With Micro2k, it's like 1995 in 2010!
20:35:23 <pikhq> alise: Intel has 7 times the revenue of AMD, currently.
20:35:40 <Sgeo> Still don't have the external thingy, blargh
20:35:49 <alise> pikhq: And the US is 13.258 trillion dollars in debt.
20:35:52 <alise> Still a hyperpower.
20:36:27 <Phantom_Hoover> God why does Coq make it so hard to get decidable predicates
20:36:29 <Sgeo> Will a laptop HD safely go into a desktop?
20:37:00 <pikhq> alise: Intel also has 8 times the employees.
20:37:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: write them as boolean functions
20:37:20 <alise> then define a coercion from bool to prop
20:37:28 <Sgeo> Crap, I may have accidentally magnetized my screwdriver
20:37:36 <alise> Sgeo: probably. ha ha buy a new screwdriver.
20:37:39 <pikhq> Granted, AMD no longer owns chip fabs.
20:37:42 <alise> do not try and just screw the HD in quickly
20:37:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I shouldn't *HAVE* to define decidable equality for Z myself.
20:37:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: the standard library sucks; I suggest always reimplementing it
20:37:59 <Sgeo> It's the non-screwy end that got magnetized maybe
20:38:16 * Sgeo needs some metal to check with
20:38:47 <alise> this channel is the most ridiculous example of Flanderisation ever
20:38:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, there are various entertaining ways of demagnetising iron.
20:39:15 <alise> "Stab the one you love."
20:39:22 <alise> "The curse will demagnetise it FOREVERMORE"
20:39:31 <Sgeo> I hit it repeatedly on something
20:39:53 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, makes it rather hard to screw things with afterwards.
20:40:01 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: True.
20:40:17 <alise> yes but there's a chance the HD will be nearby and get evaporated
20:40:22 <alise> and then this ordeal will be over for all of us
20:40:54 <Sgeo> How long does iron need to be near a magnet to get magnetized?
20:41:13 <Sgeo> Also, WHY IN THE NAME OF FUCKETY FUCK IS THE CORNER OF MY LAPTOP'S SCREEN A MAGNET?
20:41:33 <Sgeo> Is this a common LCD thing?
20:41:47 <Sgeo> My old cell phone used to be like that too
20:42:33 <Phantom_Hoover> And it depends on the strength of the magnet and probably the composition of the iron.
20:44:35 <Sgeo> Ok, laptop HDs seem to be a different size from desktop HDs
20:44:44 <Sgeo> I still haven't opened the desktop yet
20:45:07 <alise> so listening to five copies of bananaphone sped up at once, desynchronised
20:45:17 <alise> is the most cellular, modular, interactiveodular path to insanity ever
20:45:35 <alise> Sgeo: of course they're a different size
20:45:45 <alise> i sure hope you turned off the laptop first
20:46:19 <pikhq> What do you think he is, an idiot?
20:46:53 <Sgeo> The HD was out of the laptop for quite a while
20:48:46 <Sgeo> Do you honestly think I'd use the laptop with the HD in it _after you told me not to_?
20:48:51 * oerjan swats alise for claiming the channel is flounder-iced -----###
20:48:57 <Sgeo> I might be ignorant about this stuff, but I'm not stupid.
20:50:19 <oerjan> Sgeo: first impressions _are_ hard to reverse, i hear
20:52:05 <pikhq> We're talking to someone who dropped his hard drive and then used a recovery tool on the disk straight, rather than copying the drive as told to.
20:53:18 <Sgeo> wbc anc glucose
20:53:32 <alise> <Sgeo> wbc anc glucose
20:53:40 <Sgeo> I stopped touching the recovery tool when told to
20:53:50 <Sgeo> alise, something I need to remember for a few min
20:56:37 <Sgeo> Will the laptop HD fit?
20:56:41 <Sgeo> In the desktop?
20:57:06 <alise> yes. it won't fit in the secure holder
20:57:11 <alise> but it will plug in and rest.
20:57:23 <alise> one of my computers has the hd just hanging :-)
20:57:33 <Sgeo> So it might incur even more damage?
20:57:42 <alise> not if you don't kick the fucking computer.
20:58:05 <Sgeo> I have pets. THe cat might jump on top of the computer
21:04:10 <Sgeo> It.. doesn't seem to have been
21:08:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Goodness, YouTube is a veritable font of magnetic insanity.
21:08:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Not the interesting insanity, either; the free energy sort.
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21:13:49 <Gregor> One could even say it's a veritable fontAIN. Or fountain. Or any non-archaic word which hasn't been replaced with a totally new meaning.
21:14:52 <alise> has anyone here played The Neverhood?
21:15:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page
21:15:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: the great thing is that it has pages debunking such systems in thorough detail
21:15:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: and is written in a sane style
21:15:42 <alise> so you don't realise they're trying to break thermodynamics for about half an hour
21:15:58 <alise> at least i think they're trying to
21:16:01 <alise> i'm not actually sure
21:16:06 <alise> they admit nothing so far actually even remotely works
21:17:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It looks on the surface as if they just want renewable energy...
21:20:12 <alise> i still hold out some hope for cold fusion
21:20:40 <alise> same reason people believe in god :)
21:22:28 <alise> they do a lot of pages that just rebut things
21:22:55 <alise> i do think they're trying to break the laws of thermodynamics
21:23:02 <alise> just in a less crackpottish way
21:23:31 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a non-crackpottish way of getting around thermodynamics?
21:23:34 * Sgeo found a printout from Canada
21:23:38 <alise> i said less crackpottish
21:23:39 <oerjan> it's a motor of some gravity
21:23:41 <alise> not non-crackpottish
21:24:26 <alise> http://www.free-energy.ws/ ;; website of one of the editors
21:24:30 <alise> On this website, I will NOT be presenting any perpetual motion machines, futuristic ZPE technologies, or impossible inventions that break the Laws of Physics. What I will be talking about are technologies that tap into Natural Sources of energy in the environment and convert them into useful forms of energy for heat, light, and motive power.
21:24:43 <alise> still, they refer to some gravity machine type dealies as at least "interesting" on the wiki, if dismissing them all...
21:25:06 <Sgeo> Who defines what is a natural source and what isn't?
21:25:06 <alise> yes, but that's one member. and that's his site
21:25:24 <alise> Sgeo: a natural resource is a resource we didn't produce.
21:25:32 <alise> that was difficult!
21:25:48 <oerjan> so basically _all_ useful ones...
21:25:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "I'm a firm believer in the idea that gravity and centrifugal force can be harnessed to produce an energy gain" he said. "The question is, has Chalkalis accomplished this yet or not?" -- that guy
21:25:55 <Vorpal> gravity motors look like crackpotish to me?
21:26:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: so yeah, they're basically on the outskirts.
21:26:16 <alise> "No, this doesn't work, duh; ...but, you know, it could..."
21:26:22 <alise> http://gravityassistedpower.com/
21:27:23 <alise> [[The Internet has been abuzz with an article that came out in a British newspaper, Somerset, announcing that an inventor in Wells "has put together a machine he claims is the first step in creating free energy from perpetual motion."
21:27:23 <alise> I wish people wouldn't describe free energy devices in this way. The energy is coming from somewhere. Just because the inventor or reviewer doesn't know where it is coming from, doesn't mean it's "perpetual motion." If anything, the best a "perpetual motion" machine could do it keep going, not produce excess power – unless it is harnessing that power from the environment somehow.]]
21:27:45 <Vorpal> <alise> http://gravityassistedpower.com/ <-- that one doesn't seem to claim to break thermodynamics
21:27:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Best_Exotic_Clean_Energy_Technologies
21:28:11 <alise> http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Alpha_Omega_Galaxy_Freefall_Generator_(AOGFG)
21:28:23 <alise> it's quite a good read, really, just to look at all the close-misses
21:28:27 <alise> just as long as you don't trust what they say :)
21:28:42 <alise> i imagine the only other reviews of such devices are written by other people just as crackpottish
21:28:47 <alise> which obviously isn't very helpful
21:29:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm fairly confident I could pick it apart with high-school level mechanics.
21:29:39 <Vorpal> alise, what about harnessing vacuum energy? Probably a crackpottish idea bit it looks like it just *might* have a tiny chance of getting around thermodynamics
21:29:42 <alise> which one is that?
21:29:56 <alise> also, devil's advocado: the world doesn't work according to high-school mechanics
21:30:11 <alise> Vorpal: i don't see how it gets around thermodynamics
21:30:31 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't, but you can't engineer around them with some struts and wheels.
21:30:31 <alise> Using the upper limit of the cosmological constant physicists[1] have calculated the vacuum energy in a cubic centimeter of free space to be one trillionth of an erg. However, in both Quantum Electrodynamics (QED) and Stochastic Electrodynamics (SED), consistency with the principle of Lorentz invariance and with the magnitude of the Planck Constant requires it to have a much larger value of 10^107 Joules per cubic centimeter or 10^113 Joules per cubic mete
21:30:59 <alise> damn the different units
21:31:15 <Vorpal> alise, not a lot of power anyway
21:31:18 <alise> haha google can convert it
21:31:25 <alise> so the amount of energy in a cubic meter
21:31:32 <alise> is between 10^-13 joules and 10^113 joules
21:31:46 <alise> "1 trillionth of an erg per cubic centimeter in joules per cubic meter"
21:31:49 <fizzie> I would like to see some clean-energy plans that would hinge on unsigned quantities and wraparound; that sounds much more realistic to me.
21:31:49 <alise> google actually understands this
21:31:50 <Vorpal> alise, that is quite a huge range
21:31:53 <alise> how awesome is that
21:31:54 <Sgeo> Back of old computer: http://i.imgur.com/DOXWb.jpg
21:32:01 <Vorpal> alise, and 10^113 is extremely large
21:32:07 <alise> Vorpal: well it depends on what you think of QED
21:32:21 <Vorpal> alise, I don't know. :P
21:32:33 <Sgeo> Will blowing on it be enough?
21:32:40 <Vorpal> alise, also what about the cosmological constant?
21:32:40 <Sgeo> Do I need to get a vacuum?
21:32:45 <Vorpal> alise, why should I trust that more
21:33:26 <alise> what has that got to do with anything?
21:33:33 <alise> Sgeo: blowing it will push it /in/
21:33:34 * Sgeo pokes Vorpal and alise
21:33:43 <Sgeo> I meant, when it's opened
21:34:04 <Vorpal> <alise> what has that got to do with anything? <--- because you quoted it
21:34:15 <Vorpal> "<alise> Using the upper limit of the cosmological constant physicists[1] have calculated the vacuum energy in a cubic centimeter [...]"
21:34:43 <alise> yes, and i also quoted the bit that says QED contradicts it
21:34:53 <alise> so it depends on your position of QED
21:35:25 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Do I need to get a vacuum? <-- um, vacuum? Not in a computer. Compressed air is probably a better idea. Well on the back there would be no issues. And probably you want a vacuum a bit away so you don't get all that in your lungs
21:35:45 <Vorpal> alise, and on your position on the cosmological constant
21:35:47 <fizzie> (Also, disaster movies based on some physicist experiment that pokes a vacuum, accidentally underflows some variable, and releases 2^(2^(2^16))) units of energy. Though I guess that might be a short movie.)
21:36:02 <Sgeo> I have a can of compressed air, but don't know how much is in it
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21:36:16 <Vorpal> Sgeo, well, I would vacuum the back of the computer first
21:36:17 <alise> vacuum in a computer won't be too horrible
21:36:38 <alise> but on the outside
21:36:41 <alise> *vacuum on a computer
21:36:43 <alise> typo made me look stupid :D
21:37:16 <fizzie> Once used a vacuum on a keyboard and it ate three keys; silly loose keycaps.
21:37:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what I would do when I opened it, would be to keep a vacuum cleaner running some 20 cm away or such, then use compressed air on the components. I would not want to breath that stuff in, and the vacuum cleaner a bit back should take care of that
21:37:51 <Vorpal> vacuum the outside though, that should work fine, just mind the connectors
21:37:53 <Sgeo> At the school district, we used to vacuum the insides of computers with a special vacuum
21:38:20 <Sgeo> If I leave it as is, will it catch fire?
21:38:22 <Vorpal> mhm, _if_ that was a good idea then I like to point out the key word "special"
21:38:47 <Vorpal> clean it anyway, I don't know if it will catch fire
21:38:51 <Vorpal> but you clean computers anyway
21:38:55 <Vorpal> you don't leave them like that
21:39:05 <Vorpal> you don't let them get that dusty in the first place
21:39:13 <Sgeo> Can I blow on it instead of compressed air
21:39:45 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you want saliva on the PCBs?
21:40:29 <Vorpal> Sgeo, even without saliva, air breathed out is rather wet
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21:41:23 <Vorpal> alise, you need to stop assuming Sgeo means the "sane" thing when he asks something ambiguous. Generally he don't :P
21:41:33 <Vorpal> alise, this was the second time today
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21:42:44 <Sgeo> Just to be clear, this imbicility only applies to actual hardware..ness
21:43:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, which is bad enough
21:43:06 <Sgeo> I am fully competent when it comes to software.. I think
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21:50:23 <Sgeo> I think PSOX's biggest problem was marketing
21:50:39 <Sgeo> Overzealous marketing
21:51:06 <alise> v fortune-cookie-db -
21:51:06 <alise> v fortune-coookie-db -
21:51:14 <alise> Sgeo: and terrible architecture
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21:51:56 <Sgeo> Oh, too BF-specific
21:52:03 <Vorpal> <alise> v fortune-coookie-db - <-- ?
21:52:34 <alise> Vorpal: from "aptitude search fortune"
21:52:43 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ sudo aptitude install fortune-mod fortunes-min fortunes fortunes-off fortunes-bofh-excuses fortunes-spam
21:52:48 <Vorpal> alise, okay thats very strange
21:53:02 <alise> yeah i have no idea :D
21:53:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67E-_SQLVRo
21:53:31 <Sgeo> ^^not a Fine Structure spoiler
21:54:41 <Vorpal> alise, is one a transitional package or something?
21:54:51 <alise> probably some name added accidentally in 1994
21:54:54 <alise> and kept for upgrade compatibility
21:54:59 <alise> so provided by another
21:55:11 <alise> No current or candidate version found for fortune-coookie-db
21:55:11 <alise> Package: fortune-coookie-db
21:55:11 <alise> State: not a real package
21:55:11 <alise> Provided by: fortunes-spam
21:55:12 <Vorpal> well both were virtual
21:55:30 <alise> fortune-cookie-db is provided by all the packages
21:55:32 <alise> including localised
21:55:39 <alise> i.e. it's "has at least one cookie db"
21:56:59 <Sgeo> No one fell for my trap?
21:57:18 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ fortune -o
21:57:18 <alise> My haircut is totally traditional!
21:57:25 <alise> That's ... so offensive...
21:58:04 <alise> Sgeo: the theme is so terrible
21:58:06 <alise> it just sounds like noise
21:58:36 <alise> they need to take a lesson from the experts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVp-zIONsrs
21:58:46 <alise> in children's cartoons
21:58:58 <alise> well, 's english theme songs
22:01:30 <fizzie> Ooh, our work-workstations have "fortune -o" returning "No fortunes found"; they've installed only "fortune-min", not the offensives.
22:01:56 <Sgeo> fortune isn't installed at school
22:02:54 <fizzie> They don't want to encourage such frivolity.
22:03:00 <Sgeo> Ubuntu should just detect webcams, right?
22:03:15 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
22:03:51 <fizzie> In the same sense that everything should just work, right.
22:06:49 <Sgeo> Yeah, it's not working
22:07:37 <alise> i wonder if the neverhood works in wine
22:07:53 <Phantom_Hoover> For some reason, any quotes on evolution seem to be in it.
22:08:23 * Sgeo just wants to read the fortunes online
22:08:36 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ fortune -o
22:08:36 <alise> Hardly a pure science, history is closer to animal husbandry than it is to
22:08:36 <alise> mathematics, in that it involves selective breeding. The principal difference
22:08:36 <alise> between the husbandryman and the historian is that the former breeds sheep
22:08:36 <alise> or cows or such, and the latter breeds (assumed) facts. The husbandryman uses
22:08:37 <alise> his skills to enrich the future; the historian uses his to enrich the past.
22:08:39 <alise> Both are usually up to their ankles in bullshit.
22:09:21 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ fortune -o
22:09:21 <alise> Q:What do you call a dog with no legs?
22:09:21 <alise> A:What does it matter? He can't come anyway.
22:09:25 <alise> it was funnier when i interpreted that sexually
22:09:44 <alise> (listed after it, elided to not flood: [I've got a dog with no legs -- I call him Cigarette. /Every night, I take him out for a drag. Ed.])
22:10:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it has all religion-sensitive things marked as potentially offensive
22:10:09 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ fortune -o
22:10:09 <alise> I call Christianity the one great curse, the one enormous and innermost
22:10:09 <alise> perversion, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are
22:10:09 <alise> too venomous, too underhand, too underground and too petty -- I call it
22:10:09 <alise> the one immortal blemish of mankind.
22:10:10 <alise> -- Fredrich Nietzsche
22:10:12 <alise> for obvious reasons
22:10:21 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ fortune -o
22:10:21 <alise> "Surely investigation is better than unthinking faith.
22:10:22 <alise> Surely reason is a better guide than fear."
22:10:24 <alise> [Robert G. Ingersoll, "The
22:10:26 <alise> Liberty of Man, Woman and Child"]
22:10:28 <Sgeo> http://fortunes.cat-v.org/
22:10:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
22:10:45 <Sgeo> I don't see Debian there
22:10:48 <Sgeo> Is this an old site
22:11:14 <Sgeo> WHat section would the stuff that Ubuntu has be?
22:11:19 * Sgeo feels weird saying has be
22:11:23 <alise> none of them. try the freebsd one
22:11:51 <alise> although they're on the long side
22:11:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: fortune-mod fortunes-min fortunes fortunes-off fortunes-bofh-excuses fortunes-spam
22:12:01 <alise> gets you all the good stuff
22:12:03 <alise> all the english stuff, that is
22:12:18 <alise> http://fortunes.cat-v.org/kernelnewbies/ ;; this has a lot of Torvalds snarkiness
22:12:27 <Sgeo> "For those of you in the reseller business, here is a helpful tip that will
22:12:27 <Sgeo> save your support staff a few hours of precious time. Before you send your
22:12:28 <Sgeo> next machine out to an untrained client, change the permissions on /etc/passwd
22:12:28 <Sgeo> to 666 and make sure there is a copy somewhere on the disk. Now when they
22:12:28 <Sgeo> forget the root password, you can easily login as an ordinary user and correct
22:12:28 <Sgeo> the damage. Having a bootable tape (for larger machines) is not a bad idea
22:12:30 <Sgeo> either. If you need some help, give us a call."
22:12:37 <Sgeo> Someday, someone is going to do that
22:13:27 <fizzie> alise: What, you don't recommend fortunes-ubuntu-server? :p
22:13:35 <fizzie> "This package provides a set of tips on using Ubuntu server, in a fortune database format."
22:13:47 <alise> fizzie: There's an Ubuntu tips one, too.
22:13:58 <alise> But I prefer to have fortune(1) always spew out a waste of time. :-)
22:14:07 <alise> If fortune ever makes you more productive, it's failing at its job.
22:15:01 <alise> the limericks are terribly crass :)
22:15:04 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ fortune -o
22:15:04 <alise> There was a young girl in Berlin
22:15:04 <alise> Who eked out a living through sin.
22:15:04 <alise> She didn't mind fucking,
22:15:04 <alise> But much preferred sucking,
22:15:05 <alise> And she'd wipe off the pricks on her chin.
22:15:42 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ fortune -o
22:15:42 <alise> Tourist to New Yorker:
22:15:42 <alise> "Pardon me, sir, do you know what time it is, or should I
22:15:42 <alise> just go fuck myself?"
22:16:06 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ fortune -o
22:16:06 <alise> NATHAN ... your PARENTS were in a CARCRASH!! They're VOIDED -- They
22:16:06 <alise> COLLAPSED They had no CHAINSAWS ... They had no MONEY MACHINES ... They
22:16:06 <alise> did PILLS in SKIMPY GRASS SKIRTS ... Nathan, I EMULATED them ... but
22:16:06 <alise> they were OFF-KEY ...
22:20:33 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
22:20:35 <Sgeo> I don't see that in this FreeBSD stuff
22:20:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:23:01 <alise> Sgeo: it's not the same file. deal
22:23:16 * Sgeo wants to see the file online somewhere :/
22:27:59 <alise> [[As a result of earlier unauthorized sales to civilians, the Department of Defense requires that
22:27:59 <alise> U.S. Government Property, Commercial Resale is Unlawful
22:27:59 <alise> be printed on each case of MREs.[10] Despite the disclaimer, there are no laws that forbid the resale of MREs.]]
22:28:16 <alise> pikhq: Do the army really print "Commercial resale is unlawful" on an item that can be legally commercially resold?
22:29:02 <pikhq> alise: They're morons, yes.
22:29:36 <alise> pikhq: Isn't printing such a ridiculously and blatantly false statement illegal too? OH WAIT IT'S THE GOVERNMENT :P
22:30:04 <pikhq> Nope, it's not illegal to lie.
22:32:50 <alise> pikhq: And I guess it doesn't really fall under false advertising or whatever...
22:32:59 <alise> ...this is where you tell me "Actually, false advertising is perfectly legal in the US!".
22:34:50 <pikhq> alise: Are you familiar with Fox News?
22:35:10 <alise> Is that really advertising?
22:35:21 <pikhq> The name suggests it's "news", and thus true.
22:35:29 <alise> Fair and Balanced.
22:35:31 <pikhq> They got sued for false advertising because of that, and won the case.
22:35:43 <alise> At least it's meant to be illegal, then?
22:36:04 <pikhq> It's *meant* to be illegal to do false advertising, yes.
22:36:10 <alise> At least there's that.
22:36:23 <pikhq> But it's a civil matter, and our courts are fucked up as hell.
22:36:37 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarbox ;; didn't know these had names
22:39:03 <Sgeo> *** System shutdown message from root ***
22:39:03 <Sgeo> System going down in 60 seconds
22:39:11 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_Channel#Obama_administration_criticism_of_Fox_News
22:39:11 <Sgeo> ^^just a mean thing to put in a fortune
22:41:12 <pikhq> alise: I don't think you realise just how very bad Fox News *is*.
22:41:45 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:41:53 <pikhq> Oh, right, you guys also have Murdoch.
22:42:04 <alise> At least nobody actually trusts The Sun.
22:42:11 <alise> Well ... apart from people who read The Sun.
22:42:17 <alise> And they mostly read it for the tits.
22:42:24 <alise> I'm not sure all of them can actually read.
22:42:52 <pikhq> Whereas here people actually trust Fox as their only source of news.
22:43:00 <pikhq> Imagine if your world view was defined by the Sun.
22:43:03 <alise> pikhq: I need help; my brain is auto-designing a VCS. Stop it.
22:43:19 <alise> pikhq: well, there are many people who have their world view defined by the Daily Mail
22:43:22 <alise> which is pretty damn bad
22:44:57 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:45:07 <pikhq> alise: FOX NEWS HAS SAID THAT MISTER ROGERS RUINED AMERICA.
22:45:35 <alise> Joybubbles v. Fox News
22:45:40 <alise> fought with giant mechas
22:45:41 <pikhq> He apparently gave kids a "sense of entitlement".
22:45:45 <alise> someone get the anime series commissioned for that
22:46:50 <pikhq> (In case you're unaware: Mr. Rogers is probably the least evil man to have walked the earth.)
22:47:06 <cpressey> pikhq, will you be my neighbour?
22:47:13 <cpressey> or neighbor or however it's spelled here?
22:47:23 <alise> Sorry, I'm answering instead of pikhq.
22:47:27 <pikhq> cpressey: Neighbor or neighbour are both valid, I think.
22:47:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: You... I... What?
22:47:35 <alise> pikhq can't speak right now because i said so.
22:47:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: YOU ARE AMERICAN
22:47:47 <pikhq> Vorpal: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9f/Bwsweep.jpg
22:47:50 <alise> Vorpal: the winner of the ultimate showdown.
22:47:58 <alise> `addquote <pikhq> Vorpal: YOU ARE AMERICAN
22:48:04 <HackEgo> 226|<pikhq> Vorpal: YOU ARE AMERICAN
22:48:06 <alise> The newest entry in the "blatantly factually inaccurate quotes" series.
22:48:34 <pikhq> Fucking memory, making me forget he's not American.
22:48:35 <Sgeo> I am skilled at computer hardware repair
22:48:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: FLOWERS
22:48:55 <alise> pikhq: Sweden, America; what's the difference?
22:49:04 <alise> <Sgeo> I am skilled at computer hardware repair
22:49:06 <alise> Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno.
22:49:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Ais will be announcing the spec for Feather any time soon!
22:49:16 <pikhq> Vorpal: He did a children's TV show on PBS for 50 years.
22:49:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, when people stole his car, they gave it back when they realised it was him. *With the petrol tank filled.*
22:50:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, Debian/kHURD boots GNOME.
22:50:08 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And a letter of apology.
22:50:18 <alise> Gregor runs it on his laptop, I think, or did at one point, for the hell of it.
22:50:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:50:35 <alise> Now Debian/kHURD on Itanium... I'd like that.
22:50:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it has no USB support, :P
22:54:03 <Gregor> alise: I never ran it out of a VM.
22:54:15 <Gregor> alise: For giggles I once had that VM as my "primary" interface for a short bit.
22:54:23 <Gregor> But it was still a VM :P
22:54:25 <alise> Like me and Windows 95!
22:55:17 <pikhq> It's a pity DOS doesn't multitask. It'd be amusing to spend a couple hours with DOS as my primary interface. :P
22:55:43 <Gregor> alise: I doubt very highly that that exists :P
22:55:52 <pikhq> ... Waaaiiiittt a second. Windows 3.1 can run Win32 programs.
22:55:58 <Gregor> Although you could probably use $NAME_OF_THAT_ONE_ARACHNID_THEMED_WEB_BROWSER_HERE.
22:56:00 <pikhq> I could maybe run Opera on Windows 3.1
22:56:04 <alise> Fine; tweak with the kernel to insert IRC code into each interrupt.
22:56:06 <Gregor> pikhq: It can run Win32s programs.
22:57:13 <pikhq> Argh, distinctions
22:57:52 <Gregor> It's not a small distinction.
23:13:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:14:29 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:17:36 <cpressey> zzo38, if I were to write a substantial text adventure, would it be best if it was written in: a) Inform (compiled to Z5); b) assembly language; c) C; or d) an esolang?
23:18:25 <alise> e) You should invent your own interactive fiction language!
23:18:31 <alise> cpressey: Inform 6 or 7?
23:18:45 <alise> cpressey: But 7 is fun! In a scary kind of way.
23:18:52 <alise> zzo38 has made a text adventure language
23:18:54 <cpressey> inventing my own language also occurred to me
23:18:55 <alise> so you can predict the answer
23:19:01 <alise> TAVSYS or something
23:19:21 <cpressey> oh -- i thought that was something he had extended, like Enhanced CWEB
23:19:54 <cpressey> i only remember it is related to forth somehow. so yes that actually makes more sense.
23:20:02 <alise> it /may/ be an extended TADS
23:21:57 <cpressey> sadly there is no good answer to this. therefore my masterpiece of interactive fiction will as yet go unwritten.
23:24:07 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:25:07 <cpressey> well. actually, I'll eliminate b) and d). whatever cool factor might be obtained from either, would be fine, but would not be the objective.
23:25:33 <Sgeo> So, once my dad wakes up, I'll vacuum, open comp, compressed air, put HD in
23:25:39 * alise tries to find it on ZZO38COMPUTER
23:25:43 <alise> i wonder if it's gopher-only
23:25:49 <alise> Sgeo: why wait for your dad
23:26:01 <Sgeo> alise, because I don't know where the compressed air is
23:26:25 <pikhq> He'll probably tell you the compressed air will give your computer viruses.
23:26:32 <Sgeo> pikhq, he's not that dumb
23:26:58 <Sgeo> And afaict, he's actually reasonably competent when it comes to computer hardware
23:28:21 <alise> just search for it yourself
23:33:21 -!- nooga has joined.
23:38:03 <alise> There's a Dewey decimal class just for induction.
23:38:08 <alise> In the logic section.
23:38:45 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/tavsys/
23:39:26 <zzo38> alise: I try to make most files accessible over the internet to use all applicable protocols. (There are some that are only sensible on one protocol)
23:39:44 <alise> No links to it though.
23:39:47 <alise> cpressey: There's your answer.
23:40:17 <alise> zzo38: .tav is a binary file?
23:40:26 <zzo38> Standard adventure game library is not created much yet (it is not available yet), but you can write your own library (and then INCLUDE it)
23:40:28 <alise> INCLUDE :oasys.4th INCLUDE ESCAPE
23:40:30 <zzo38> alise: Yes, .tav is a binary file.
23:40:35 <alise> Is that actually an interpreter for another adventure game system?
23:40:57 <alise> You've converted a game with a vaguely C-ish/Perlish syntax into your Forth-based system just by writing a library for it?
23:41:01 <zzo38> Yes, the file oasys.4th is an interpreter for another adventure game system.
23:41:14 <zzo38> alise: And yes, I have done that just by writing a library for it.
23:41:35 <alise> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/tavsys/lib/oasys.4th
23:41:38 <alise> How is it so short?
23:41:52 <zzo38> And it is not even an ordinary library, it treats the *binaries* from OASYS as source code!!
23:42:30 <cpressey> yes. i see it. this is fascinating.
23:43:05 <zzo38> alise: Because it is short. My question is why other programs are so long!
23:43:28 <alise> <zzo38> And it is not even an ordinary library, it treats the *binaries* from OASYS as source code!!
23:43:29 <alise> Now that is awesome.
23:44:06 <alise> zzo38: have you got an example of an actual game in pure tavsys?
23:44:21 <cpressey> and what forth would be needed to build/bootstrap this?
23:45:05 <zzo38> cpressey: You only need a C compiler (unless you have Windows, in which case you don't even need that).
23:45:50 <zzo38> I have no example of an actual game in pure TAVSYS sorry. (Except for a sokoban game, but that isn't a text adventure game)
23:46:40 <zzo38> cpressey: Actually if you don't have windows, you also need to modify it to work on your operating system (the Glk startup code requires changes for each operating system it is ported to).
23:46:43 <cpressey> ah. finally found the C source.
23:48:27 <alise> 'N bjd s ' tp' 'f wrtng sstm 'n whch 'ch smbl 'lws 'r 'slly' stnds fr ' cnsnnt; th' rdr mst sppl' th' 'pprprt' vwl.
23:48:57 <alise> zzo38: A sokoban game would work.
23:49:42 <alise> ' skbn gm' wld wrk.
23:50:21 <zzo38> alise: http://sprunge.us/iSCa
23:50:59 -!- Gol has joined.
23:51:03 <alise> zzo38: Thnk ' vr' mch.
23:51:20 <alise> zzo38: 'T 's 'n 'ntrstng sstm.
23:51:46 <Gol> Sorry alise
23:52:00 <alise> * slide :Nickname is already in use.
23:52:24 <zzo38> If I ever made more modifications to the C codes of TAVSYS, I might convert the codes to Enhanced CWEB.
23:52:27 <alise> Trnng 'Nglsh 'nt' 'n 'bjd 's ' pn.
23:53:05 <alise> zzo38: Cn ' 'ndrstnd m' mssgs?
23:53:12 <Gol> Ohhhhh wwhat kinda language u people are talkin
23:54:03 <alise> Gol: It is an esoteric code.
23:54:03 <Gol> I see its computer language
23:54:07 <alise> It helps us gain enlightenment.
23:54:15 <zzo38> alise: I can understand a little bit but not much sorry
23:54:19 <alise> We use it to further our self-stabbing endeavours.
23:54:22 <alise> What brings you here, Gol?
23:54:27 <alise> (If it's computers, we do that too.)
23:54:38 <Gol> I cant undrestand any of this
23:54:40 <alise> cpressey: 'xcpt, ys.
23:54:52 <alise> Gol: That is perfectly fine. Would you like to be initiated?
23:55:01 <Gol> I dont know i just joined the room
23:55:16 <alise> Gol: Okay. What brings you here, Disciple?
23:55:19 <alise> Again, we do computers on the side.
23:55:23 <alise> Like fries with a fast-food order.
23:55:54 <zzo38> Gol: We do a lot of stuff in here, but the topic is esoteric programming language. But, it is not always on topic
23:56:12 <Gol> Ahhha i see
23:56:35 <Gol> Goood luck anyway
23:56:39 -!- myndzi has joined.
23:56:55 -!- Gol has left (?).
23:57:06 <alise> Vrl', ' wll frthrmr' spk 'n ths tng'.
23:57:18 <alise> 'T kps th' nwbs 'w'.
23:59:24 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:59:27 <lifthrasiir> I just lost my journal post for that and have rewritten it
00:01:57 <Sgeo> Got the compressed air.
00:02:01 <Sgeo> About to start vacuuming
00:02:29 <lifthrasiir> anyway I now have this: http://j.mearie.org/post/1181041789/brainfuck-interpreter-in-2-lines-of-c
00:02:43 <alise> lifthrasiir: pah, it's three characters in J
00:03:14 <alise> lifthrasiir: unfortunately, Unicode is not big enough to contain them!
00:03:25 <alise> it looks like a brain, and then [censored], and then an IO relay.
00:03:33 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
00:03:35 <alise> "Well, I ended up with a slightly large program than a tweet" -- no, no, Twitter is a website where you can twit twats!
00:03:43 <alise> not tweet tweets! :-P
00:04:01 <alise> lifthrasiir: isn't read/write shorter than syscalls?
00:04:30 <alise> hmm, it isn't compliant
00:04:33 <alise> failing on non-instruction chars
00:04:39 <alise> also, calling main recursively is verboten, i'm pretty sure
00:04:44 <Sgeo> alise, no, that's after I run N1> ddrescue --no-split /dev/sda imagefile logfile
00:04:50 <Sgeo> Sorry, just needed a reminder
00:05:03 <Sgeo> The device will probably be different. That's ok, right?
00:05:24 <alise> lifthrasiir: wow, telling Chrome to translate the crazy network post was a mistake
00:05:26 <alise> "I'm going to feel lived several years in KAIST, KAIST network through the ranks at the KAIST She can not think. What I have in the school network, six sigma, it's just asking for your availability, "a little less" hope the dead, still comes to the school network, obesity, increased noticeably, thanks to Ross Ping KAIST FTPalso left a lasting impact. Hanggongeopgyenya what you guys have? When the rain delay?"
00:06:07 <alise> korean is optimised for machine translation art
00:06:22 <lifthrasiir> anyway that is about a problem of discarding HTTP packet with words "||", "from", "*" and "set" in that order
00:06:28 <alise> http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://j.mearie.org/post/862288439&act=url
00:06:33 <alise> link to the translation
00:06:39 <lifthrasiir> the gateway silently discards packets after them
00:06:43 <alise> "But ... in my dorm under the posts once the bitter blow that almost never got to writing? That's so strange: I've checked, this came out."
00:06:46 <Vorpal> <alise> korean is optimised for machine translation art <-- indeed
00:06:55 <Vorpal> Swedish<->English or such generally works better
00:06:58 <alise> i had no idea what the post was about until you told me, but i didn't care
00:07:02 <alise> it was beautiful enough
00:07:07 <Vorpal> similar language family though
00:08:00 <Vorpal> lifthrasiir, what about CJK<->CJK?
00:08:20 <SgeoN1> Vacuum appears to have had little to no effect
00:08:32 <lifthrasiir> Vorpal: J-K is very readable, but C-K and J-K is far from perfect
00:08:41 <alise> lifthrasiir: you could put the star there with &#foo
00:08:57 <alise> oh HTTP packets only
00:09:16 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, not a high power vacuum? The Miele at home tends to be very very efficient
00:09:58 <SgeoN1> I think a lot of the dust was actually caught in te metal
00:09:59 <alise> Content-type: text/plain
00:10:11 <SgeoN1> Need different screwdriver
00:10:30 <lifthrasiir> alise: I didn't test HTTP response... but it detects HTTP requests
00:10:39 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: &dragon; &maiden; <shining-armor>&knight;</shining-armor>).
00:18:19 <SgeoN1> http://i.imgur.com/SjRd8.jpg
00:22:11 <SgeoN1> I'm pretty sure I saw a thing of dust go under the motherboard
00:28:08 * SgeoN1 hopes be didn't just damage an epectronics
00:28:18 <SgeoN1> I saw the stuff look liquidy
00:32:43 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:40:06 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/MHcC
00:44:02 <zzo38> I added the BytePusher logo to the table of contents page of the ByrePusher implementation, just like the BytePusher logo in the wiki
00:44:03 <SgeoN1> http://i.imgur.com/kGgUu.jpg
00:44:25 <SgeoN1> I don't think this problem is resolvable. I think they just wont fit
00:46:31 <SgeoN1> Dammit, wake up, somebody!
00:49:21 <SgeoN1> In hardware incompetence, no one can hear you scream
00:51:36 <zzo38> SgeoN1: What is your problem?
00:51:52 <SgeoN1> Need to put HD in computer. Cannot
00:51:53 <zzo38> It looks like that is the wrong kind of connection
00:52:31 <zzo38> You need to get a different hard drive!!
00:52:47 <SgeoN1> No. This hard drive is broken, and has stuff on it
00:52:52 <zzo38> (If you want to transfer the files, go somewhere else borrow a computer with both)
00:53:10 <SgeoN1> Maybe an external disk mount thingy?
00:53:37 <SgeoN1> I have an old HD that I haven't looked at in years. Maybe ill go check it out
00:54:47 <zzo38> SgeoN1: Yes, use an external connector if you have one of that
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01:04:39 <Vorpal> <SgeoN1> No. This hard drive is broken, and has stuff on it <-- you can't mix PATA with SATA obviously
01:04:47 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, the computer has PATA, the drive is SATA
01:06:30 <SgeoN1> At any rate, there's an ancient HD that I want to take a look at. First thing I'll do, SMART, if there are significant errors ill back this up too
01:06:33 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, also, putting a disk upside down like that makes me nervous. Don't run it upside down (should work but...)
01:06:49 <SgeoN1> That disk isn't in there anymore
01:06:53 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, if it is ancient it's probably PATA
01:07:19 <SgeoN1> Ancient drive is PATA. does PATA not have SMART?
01:09:08 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, it may or may not
01:09:15 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, really old drives won't
01:09:26 <Vorpal> but that must be like 2001 or earlier
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01:10:04 <Vorpal> for example, the drive in my old ibook lacks SMART
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01:13:55 <SgeoN1> Why is Parted Magic starting sshd?
01:15:15 <SgeoN1> There should be two drives in the machine. It's only seeing one
01:15:30 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, did you put in the correct jumpers
01:15:34 <Vorpal> you need to do that for PATA
01:15:48 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, before changing that *TURN OFF THE SYSTEM*
01:16:08 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, do under no circumstances change jumpers when the system is connected to power
01:16:16 <SgeoN1> The smart tool only saw one
01:16:49 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, I hope you put one as master and one as slave (unless existing one was as cable select, then put all as cable select)
01:16:54 <SgeoN1> Wait no, those are partitions
01:17:17 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, see what I said wrt jumpers at back of pata drives
01:18:08 <SgeoN1> Right, didn't see labels, so hoped for the best. Will check
01:18:26 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, and *TURN OFF BEFORE CHANGING*
01:18:38 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, changing live = probably going to short a lot of stuff
01:19:01 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, well, before you change that you need to turn the thing off and unplug
01:19:04 <SgeoN1> And I wouldn't even dream of touching a live computer
01:19:22 <SgeoN1> Do you think I'm an idiot? Oh wait...
01:19:33 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, as a matter of fact: yes I do
01:19:54 <SgeoN1> I'm also award of Tue danger of static electricity
01:20:15 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, hot plugging anything inside a computer is best left for experts in data centers.
01:20:26 <Vorpal> it is not possible on consumer PCs
01:21:04 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, well, there are some sort of servers where you can hot plug RAM. Or even CPUs
01:21:26 <Vorpal> it needs special hardware
01:21:32 <Vorpal> if you don't know about it, you don't have it
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01:29:46 <Sgeo> Vorpal, stop talking to me like I'm an idiot
01:29:52 <Sgeo> You don't need to repeat yourself
01:30:09 <Sgeo> Although, does the software need to co-operate too? What OSes can do it?
01:30:24 <Sgeo> And I assume all such machines are multi-CPU if CPUs are hot-swappable
01:30:32 <Sgeo> Unless they go to sleep while the CPU is out
01:32:46 <pikhq> Yes, they're multi-CPU. And there is OS support needed.
01:32:56 <pikhq> Support for it is almost exclusively in UNIX systems.
01:33:14 <pikhq> (I don't think it's *possible* for it to be in Windows)
01:34:50 <SgeoN1> Vorpal, the jumper stuff is unlabelled
01:36:08 <SgeoN1> http://i.imgur.com/yXocA.jpg
01:37:21 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, what about the top
01:37:34 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, one of them generally have labels describing the jumpers
01:38:05 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Although, does the software need to co-operate too? What OSes can do it? <-- linux can iirc.
01:38:10 <SgeoN1> Should I check what the other drive has?
01:38:15 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> And I assume all such machines are multi-CPU if CPUs are hot-swappable <--- and yes
01:38:26 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, if the other one has master, this one should be slave
01:38:33 <Vorpal> if that is what you means
01:38:40 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, on the same cable that is
01:38:56 <SgeoN1> Also, what is Cap Limit?
01:38:58 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, if you connected it to the cable with CD on it, then it needs to be the same there
01:39:18 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, um... guessing here... compat mode for old BIOSes
01:39:21 <Vorpal> don't touch that stuff
01:40:06 <SgeoN1> I think I can just check the drive that used to be in there, because that worked
01:40:41 <Vorpal> alise, I got my hands on an old Dell Latitude D610. Which linux distro should I install?
01:40:42 <nooga> i want quadrocopter!
01:41:01 <Vorpal> nooga, boring, I want to try something exotic
01:41:15 <SgeoN1> ... there is no jumper
01:42:06 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, check what no jumper means on the other drive then
01:42:17 <Vorpal> in which case both drives should be on cable select
01:42:24 <SgeoN1> I don't see the label on the other drive
01:42:29 <nooga> hot swappable computers
01:42:32 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, a bit tricky then
01:42:36 <SgeoN1> Erm, as in the removed one
01:42:38 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, I got my hands on an old Dell Latitude D610. Which linux distro should I install?
01:42:44 <SgeoN1> Checking actually attached one now
01:42:45 <alise> like what kinda specs
01:42:56 <nooga> i want to hot-swap my whole laptop at once so that my system would still run
01:43:00 <Vorpal> alise, Pentium M @ 1.86 GHz
01:43:38 <alise> i was just about to say fedora for no particular reason, but eff you nooga
01:43:46 <alise> Vorpal: note: people use rpm as much as dpkg nowadays
01:43:53 <alise> and people have foul memories of rpm because of dependency hell
01:43:56 <alise> just like pure dpkg would have ;)
01:44:01 <Vorpal> alise, I'm thinking arch or maybe nixos?
01:44:14 <alise> Vorpal: NixOS would be cool
01:44:21 <alise> Vorpal: hmm, thinking what else
01:44:34 <alise> Vorpal: oh, the choice is obvious!
01:44:36 <Vorpal> alise, can you put nixos on a usb stick? I'm a bit short on CD-R currently
01:44:45 <alise> but it is very very painful
01:44:50 <alise> well not that painful
01:44:54 <alise> mostly it was my mistake
01:44:55 <Vorpal> alise, and which BSD? It isn't a toaster, so it can't be NetBSD
01:44:58 <alise> or rather the web server's mistake
01:45:05 <alise> Vorpal: well FreeBSD is the boring linuxy one
01:45:12 <SgeoN1> I can't seem to remove the drive to get a good look
01:45:17 <alise> OpenBSD is gonna try and stop you even USING such an insecure machine!
01:45:19 <Vorpal> alise, well I used freebsd quite a bit
01:45:35 <alise> DragonflyBSD has, according to cpressey, a bit of a weird culture like FreeBSD
01:45:39 <alise> and NetBSD's software is a bit old
01:45:44 <alise> (X is a few major versions out of date)
01:45:55 <alise> but then the computer is old ;)
01:45:56 <Vorpal> alise, and this is not a toaster, even though it gets quite hot easily
01:45:57 <alise> Vorpal: because linux is boring now!
01:46:09 <SgeoN1> I suppose guessing what jumpers mean is a bad thing?
01:46:11 <alise> Vorpal: NO WAIT I KNOW
01:46:15 <alise> Vorpal: FUCKING MASTODON
01:46:19 <alise> Vorpal: put mastodon on it
01:46:25 <alise> it may not have been updated for yonks, but neither has your laptop been
01:46:27 <alise> and it's fucking awesome
01:46:37 <alise> XFree86 version OLD!
01:46:42 <Vorpal> alise, if I can get it on an usb stick, and I doubt that
01:46:52 <alise> Vorpal: there's floppies or an install CD
01:46:57 <alise> the install CD is about 500-600 MiB
01:47:00 <Vorpal> alise, floppies = tricky
01:47:02 <alise> nooga: the most retro linux distro ever
01:47:04 <alise> Vorpal: so do it with a CD
01:47:06 <alise> Vorpal: use unetbootin
01:47:11 <alise> it can put any bootable iso onto a usb stick
01:47:22 <SgeoN1> http://i.imgur.com/irLDq.jpg
01:47:28 <nooga> i'd go for plain FreeBSD
01:47:39 <nooga> dragonfly is also quite cool
01:47:49 <GreaseMonkey> <alise> and NetBSD's software is a bit old <-- it DOES keep at least some of the software in its repos up to date
01:47:51 <Vorpal> the boring and sane alternative would be Arch.
01:48:02 <nooga> Vorpal: run Plan9 natively
01:48:03 <SgeoN1> Also, the thing that didn't work is currently slave, so trying cs would make sense
01:48:13 <alise> Vorpal: arch is i686
01:48:16 <alise> far too modern to be allowed
01:48:23 <Vorpal> alise, this is pentium m
01:48:24 <alise> nooga: cpressey has soured me to dragonfly :P
01:48:27 <alise> Vorpal: TOO MODERN
01:48:40 <Vorpal> alise, I verified from ubuntu livecd that all those Fn-whatever work under it
01:48:47 <nooga> i gotta go to sleep
01:48:48 <SgeoN1> And if these keys are the same, the CD is not master, so..
01:49:28 <Vorpal> <SgeoN1> http://i.imgur.com/irLDq.jpg <-- just a blur?
01:50:01 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, another idea: temporarily unplug the cd while this is happening
01:50:09 <Vorpal> then you are on the safe side
01:50:15 <alise> Vorpal: how much are you charging SgeoN1 for this undeferred consultancy?
01:51:04 <alise> "Some people seem to think that C is a real programming language, but they are sadly mistaken. It really is about writing almost-portable assembly language, and it turns out that getting good results from SHA1 really is mostly about trying to fight the compilers tendency to try to be clever." --Linus Torvalds
01:51:06 <SgeoN1> http://i.imgur.com/irLDq.jpg
01:51:13 <alise> "I think when you told that C is not real prog lang then you meant it is not Turing Complaint. But, it is really hard to prove C is not Turing Equivalent. Can you please give one example?." --Chandra Shekhar Tewary, in a comment on the post
01:51:14 <Vorpal> alise, and I expect he repays this by actually learning after this
01:51:21 <alise> Being retarded: It's what's for dinner!
01:51:27 <Vorpal> <SgeoN1> http://i.imgur.com/irLDq.jpg <-- yeees, just a blur
01:51:35 <Vorpal> it is completely useless to see anything
01:51:37 <alise> haha wow @ his blogger profile
01:51:38 <alise> "Humanized Useless Motion Particle located on the Earth..still learning how to walk alone without harming ecosystem. ETL Designer/Unix Shell Programmer/Lyricist."
01:51:45 <alise> Vorpal: i think SgeoN1 is trying to be artistic
01:51:49 <alise> you can tell because of the bokeh!
01:52:08 <Vorpal> alise, I don't see any book
01:52:15 <Vorpal> alise, I think the green thing is a jumper...
01:52:16 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokeh
01:52:23 <alise> you're an amateur photographer, you should know this :P
01:52:36 <Vorpal> alise, hm I deal in panophoto
01:53:03 <alise> in the field of computing we know nothing of it
01:53:19 <alise> do you actually aim for anything when making photos or do you just like it if it's 360 degrees
01:53:28 <alise> that panorama you did in that room looking out that window was hideously boring
01:53:38 <Vorpal> alise, I aim for some great scenic views
01:53:59 <Vorpal> alise, and that one in the room was a test one, for the panobot
01:54:05 <Vorpal> alise, it was raining outside...
01:54:13 <Vorpal> alise, and I wanted to test that it worked :P
01:54:21 <SgeoN1> A while ago, I cannabalized a computer for its CD drive
01:54:31 <SgeoN1> The drive is still here
01:56:28 <SgeoN1> What's the worst that happens if the drive is upside down? The cable barely reaches like this
01:58:47 <alise> Do you ask as many questions in real life?
02:03:34 <SgeoN1> Got everything to fit, closing computer
02:04:02 <SgeoN1> I wish I asked more questions. Like, "May I sit next to you? "
02:04:11 <SgeoN1> I'm getting better at that one
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02:09:14 <SgeoN1> I should really, really make a custom grub CD soon
02:09:28 <SgeoN1> Would make my life much easier
02:09:53 <SgeoN1> Used to have a grub floppy when I had issues with my computer
02:10:11 <SgeoN1> To help me to boot into Ubuntu instead of Freespire
02:10:28 <pikhq> GOD DAMMIT GUY WITH THE µTORRENT, YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DOWNLOAD FROM ME
02:10:45 <pikhq> IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A GOOD SHARE RATIO WHEN NOBODY DOWNLOADS FROM YOU
02:10:59 * pikhq shall put down the torrent client to avoid violence against algorithms
02:13:06 <SgeoN1> Aaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhh
02:13:16 <SgeoN1> Fffffffffuuuuuuuuiuiuuuuuu
02:14:38 <SgeoN1> Lolwhat? This makes no sense
02:16:20 <SgeoN1> Which makes absolutely no sense as that disk should jot have needed a jumper change
02:16:37 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism
02:17:06 <alise> pikhq: maybe his client doesn't do encryption?
02:17:08 <alise> maybe he's set it not to
02:18:09 <pikhq> alise: It does encryption.
02:18:22 <pikhq> His client is clearly set to be a bitch.
02:18:29 <SgeoN1> Yes, I looked at the data. The drive does appear to be failing. Ill go start recovery procedures, there's stuff on here that I want to hold onto
02:20:38 <SgeoN1> Where'd I put the power and USB cable for the external drive?
02:25:36 <Sgeo> Can someone grep logs to see how much space I claimed to have bef.. wait, n/m
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02:30:43 <alise> Vorpal: give your CPU 1024 general-purpose 64-bit registers
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02:32:44 <Sgeo> (not literally)
02:33:18 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:NevilleDNZ
02:36:40 <pikhq> alise: ÜberRISC, eh?
02:37:01 <alise> pikhq: no, he's doing some hideous hybrid of RISC and CISC
02:37:06 <alise> but registers are super-cool
02:37:15 <alise> with 1,024 you never, ever need to pass arguments on the stack :)
02:37:36 <alise> let's say you support functions with 64 arguments, which is ridiculous, that's still 960 general-purpose registers
02:37:46 <pikhq> Registers are awesomeness. Especially when you could feasibly cease to have a L1 cache because of them.
02:37:47 <alise> of course if your language is based on Scheme's apply then you might have issues :P
02:37:58 <alise> i hate how misunderstood risc is
02:38:02 <alise> like the pdp-8 has 8 basic instructions
02:38:17 <alise> and modern RISCs have a shitload of instructions, and people don't get this
02:38:54 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-8#Instruction_set
02:38:57 <alise> pretty beautiful architecture
02:39:04 <pikhq> Load-store architecture, with equal-sized instructions, a lot of registers. Isn't that RISC in a nutshell?
02:39:23 <alise> pikhq: That's pretty close, yeah...
02:39:51 <alise> pikhq: I wonder if RISC and VLIW are partially reconcilable. :P
02:39:54 <alise> (Only because VLIW is fucking cool.)
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02:40:12 <pikhq> alise: One could have very large instructions of constant size.
02:40:13 <Sgeo> My step-mother's here
02:40:19 <alise> Agrajag: not a curse.
02:40:52 <pikhq> And you could have a *lot* of load-store happening there.
02:41:02 <Sgeo> Well, maybe not literally
02:41:06 <Sgeo> But it must feel like it
02:41:14 <alise> pikhq: Transmeta's x86 Crusoe processor "compiles" instructions down to VLIW, iirc
02:41:18 <pikhq> And of course you'd want, say, 4096 registers to maximize the ridiculous parallelism. :)
02:41:37 <alise> Transmeta addresses this issue by including a binary-to-binary software compiler layer (termed Code Morphing) in their Crusoe implementation of the x86 architecture. Basically, this mechanism is advertised to recompile, optimize, and translate x86 opcodes at runtime into the CPU's internal machine code. Thus, the Transmeta chip is internally a VLIW processor, effectively decoupled from the x86 CISC instruction set that it executes.
02:41:55 <alise> pikhq: I wonder if any RISC CPUs optimise out load/stores somehow.
02:42:06 <alise> Like, "load x -> modify x -> store x" to a direct modification internally.
02:42:37 <pikhq> alise: Nice theory, but the CPU already has to do load, modify, store.
02:43:02 <alise> You know how graphics cards use 2D acceleration to directly mess with the frame buffer?
02:43:07 <alise> Without involving the CPU?
02:43:12 <alise> pikhq: ACCELERATED MEMORY
02:43:29 <alise> You tell the memory, "oh, copy this range to here", or "increment this location", and it does it. >:)
02:44:08 <pikhq> That's called parallelism.
02:44:42 <pikhq> Aaaaand probably wouldn't work as well as you think.
02:45:05 <pikhq> The CPU is not actually operating directly on memory. All of its operations are happening on its cache.
02:50:17 <alise> pikhq: Fine, expose the cache as registers.
02:50:48 <pikhq> Okay, 4096 registers it is.
02:50:58 <pikhq> Well, for L1 cache.
02:51:06 <alise> pikhq: I was about to say :P
02:51:19 <pikhq> For L2, let's say... 2097152?
02:51:22 <alise> pikhq: You mean 393,216.
02:51:30 <alise> 3 mebibytes, because why not.
02:51:36 <alise> I think that's what the top Core 2s had.
02:51:44 <alise> pikhq: Man, imagine giving them names.
02:51:51 <alise> Like the world's biggest Excel spreadsheet.
02:52:04 <pikhq> Actually, it went up to 12.
02:52:24 <alise> That's just stupid though.
02:52:34 <alise> pikhq: 3 mebibytes = MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMCCXVI registers
02:52:40 <alise> We could just name them with roman numerals!
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02:53:02 <alise> Clearly the Romans just needed meta-numerals.
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02:53:14 <pikhq> Except that that's off.
02:53:19 <alise> Then you could write that as:
02:53:32 <alise> That is, CCCXCIII Ms, then CCXVI.
02:53:48 <alise> I know they have the thousands notation and stuff, but that's boring.
02:53:58 <pikhq> alise: They had a one million notation.
02:54:05 <alise> SHUT UP META-NUMERALS ARE BETTER
02:54:12 <alise> Actually knowing the Romans they wouldn't even mark the (...).
02:54:16 <alise> Maybe they'd have just (, or just ).
02:54:33 <alise> You're expected to figure out from context that M is the numeral being repeated!
02:54:39 <alise> (Note: I may hate Roman numerals a bit.)
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02:56:51 <alise> pikhq: I, II, VI, VIII, XVI, XXXII, LXIV, CXXVIII, CCLVI, DXII, MXXIV, MMXLVIII, MMMMXCVI; any good student of the calculation-knowledges should memorise these figures.
02:57:33 <pikhq> That'd *actually* be (CCCXC)MMMCCXVI.
02:57:55 <alise> pikhq: wait, they actualy had such a system?
02:58:08 <alise> what does that mean, repeat the M?
02:58:30 <alise> pikhq: No, I was inventing my own notation.
02:58:40 <pikhq> I am using the actual notation.
02:58:53 <alise> x[y] = x, repeated y times, let's say.
02:59:21 <alise> VI[III] = stupidest way of writing 8 ever.
02:59:36 <pikhq> CCC*10^4 + XC*10^4 + MMM + CC + X + VI.
03:00:03 <alise> Mine is better because it's textual!
03:00:09 <alise> Which is pretty damn close to SEXTUAL
03:00:34 * Sgeo learns of Talkers
03:01:09 * Sgeo hastily turns on colored nicks
03:02:11 <Sgeo> http://talker.com/ aww
03:18:23 <alise> pikhq: I propose that we design a processor that doesn't suck. In fact, it will be powered entirely by unicorns. Oh, wait, we're done.
03:18:28 <alise> Thank god for unicorn magic.
03:19:35 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NISC wat
03:19:38 * Sgeo steals alise's kidney
03:21:52 <alise> lol @ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1_(The_Beatles_album)&curid=163213&diff=386862914&oldid=386815336
03:22:06 <alise> It's obviously a hopeless newbie injecting POV because they don't have a MAGIC WIKIPEDIA CABAL USERNAME!
03:22:12 <alise> Revert without reading edit summary!
03:31:35 <pikhq> All I can say is that I am surprised someone could possibly think a Beatles release would *not* sell obnoxiously well.
03:33:34 <Sgeo> Which was more POVy?
03:34:23 <pikhq> "Exceptional" is very POVy. "Exceeded critical expectations" could be demonstrated by noting how various critics were surprised.
03:49:44 <alise> exceptional isn't POVy
03:49:57 <alise> the /reception/ was exceptional
03:50:12 <alise> i.e. it received reception out of the norm; it was received with an excellent reception
03:50:36 <alise> since it was at least partly predicted to sell very well, the reception did not "surpass all critical and commercial expectations"
03:50:40 <alise> however, the reception /was/ exceptional.
03:50:54 <alise> i'd re-revert, but i'm an IP too, so :wikinazi:
03:51:24 <alise> pikhq: Are word-aligned instructions helpful?
03:52:24 <alise> *groan* Fedora 14 introduces systemd, a smarter, more efficient way of starting up and managing background daemons and services. It is a mostly compatible replacement for sysvinit and upstart, supporting SysV and LSB init scripts. See the FAQ and Tips and Tricks.
03:52:29 <alise> How many startup daemons do we have now?
03:53:45 <alise> pikhq: Have you figured out the cure for NIH yet...?
03:54:37 <Sgeo> There's only 3, including Fedora 14's, right?
03:54:47 <alise> Distro-specific ones.
03:54:54 <Sgeo> ....distro specific thingies?
03:54:54 <alise> Random little ones.
03:55:05 <pikhq> alise: Word-aligned instructions are helpful because *generally* a CPU's entire fetching structure is set up around fetching words.
03:55:10 <alise> Sgeo: Believe it or not, but distros used to be the driving force in Linux development.
03:55:13 <alise> In fact, they still are.
03:55:14 <pikhq> alise: Exceptions include: x86 and, uh, x86.
03:55:31 <alise> pikhq: Okay, then my proposed instruction format is this: Every instruction is 24 bytes.
03:56:14 <alise> pikhq: Nope. 64-bit.
03:56:15 <alise> That's three words.
03:56:24 <pikhq> Hrm. So it would be.
03:56:26 <alise> So: opcode, two addresses, and extra operands.
03:56:37 <alise> You shouldn't really have less than two addresses, obviously.
03:56:45 <alise> Especially for literals.
03:56:54 <alise> Two words wouldn't be enough, since you need to stick the opcode in there too.
03:56:56 <alise> So three words, 24 bytes.
03:57:10 <alise> pikhq: Also, in the wonderful RISC tradition, most instructions get something free!
03:57:14 <alise> *something for free!
03:57:27 <alise> NOP? Why, that's two whole words you can easily store a constant in!
03:57:59 <alise> Fedora: distributing on four CDs means you fail at life.
03:58:31 <alise> Oh, that's the "install media".
03:58:36 <alise> What you actually want is the "live CD".
03:58:39 <alise> To "install" with.
04:00:02 <Sgeo> When does SGU Season 2 start?
04:01:53 <Sgeo> Cancellations don't shut me up
04:01:57 <Sgeo> So don't bother..
04:02:09 <alise> Sgeo: Wikipedia says in three days, but that's outdated; it was cancelled a few days ago.
04:03:12 <alise> Dude, it's cancelled.
04:03:24 * Sgeo grepped the page for "season 2" and "season two{
04:03:33 <Sgeo> Instead of just looking at the first paragraph
04:03:48 <Sgeo> And I won't believe you unless you provide a citation. I'm not gullible
04:03:53 <Sgeo> (and the citation actually states it)
04:03:59 <Sgeo> (and the citation is credible)
04:04:06 <Sgeo> (erm, the cited thing, come to think of it)
04:07:42 <Sgeo> Firefox crashed
04:09:22 * Sgeo wishes XChat was integrated with Ubuntu's chat menu thing
04:11:28 <alise> pikhq: Stop me making my own Linux distribution, it's happening again.
04:11:30 <alise> I need an NIH shot.
04:12:15 <pikhq> Sgeo: I've got a citation for it still *not* being cancelled.
04:12:15 <alise> (The NIH vaccination works by making you want to reinvent every single thing for an hour; usually, you vow to refuse to exist as quarks, only resuming existing when you invent something better. This passes.)
04:12:35 <alise> pikhq: YOU JUST SIGNED US UP FOR MONTHS' WORTH OF SGEO TALKING ABOUT SGU
04:12:54 <Sgeo> Since when do I stay focused on a single thing for months?
04:13:15 <alise> pikhq: no he watched all of SGU season 1 at once
04:13:20 <Sgeo> ...ok, point granted
04:14:08 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I should turn off my old computer several hours ago to try to save the HD
04:14:15 <Sgeo> Although that HD wasn't damaged as sucb
04:14:55 <alise> pikhq: Please tell me why creating a new distribution is a terrible idea
04:15:17 <pikhq> alise: Because you'd have to rewrite everything to do it right.
04:15:25 <alise> pikhq: Not the kernel!
04:15:27 <alise> I can keep the kernel.
04:15:36 <Sgeo> Turns out it was already off
04:15:37 <pikhq> You'd probably *want* to rewrite the kernel.
04:15:44 <alise> Nope! I am blissfully ignoring it.
04:15:55 <Sgeo> What does this large button on my external HD do?
04:15:57 <pikhq> Okay, then you'd have to rewrite everything else.
04:16:27 <alise> Fedora distributes 701.1 MiB Live DVDs. Discuss the inanity.
04:16:44 <Sgeo> Isn't that what fits on a CD?
04:17:14 <alise> A mode-1 CD can fit 650 MiB.
04:17:29 <Sgeo> Incidentally, do I obsessively talk about The Guild or Legend of Neil?
04:17:48 <Sgeo> Both of those are weekly (bi-weekly for LoN) things that I love and don't obsess about in here
04:17:59 <alise> Of course you can get slightly bigger CDs.
04:18:05 <alise> And really, they can fucking fit everything on a CD.
04:18:37 <pikhq> alise: 650 and 700 MiB are the two common data sizes on 12cm discs.
04:18:38 <Sgeo> You can fit everything in 50MiB!
04:19:21 <pikhq> alise: Both of these are 100% compliant; 700 MiB is just a bit closer to the tolerances of the medium, and might not work on a handful of obnoxiously old devices.
04:19:22 <alise> So basically, Fedora are mandating burning a DVD for the sake of 1.1 MiB.
04:19:48 <pikhq> You can get up to about 870 MiB while still being a CD, but your CD drive may kick you.
04:20:35 <alise> ...btw, why do we still distribute music on CD?
04:20:44 <pikhq> Oh, and of course, you can make it *technically* not a CD by cutting down the leadout a bit to get more data.
04:20:54 <alise> It seems like we should be standardising USB pen drive music by now.
04:21:06 <pikhq> RIAA wouldn't stand for it.
04:21:34 <pikhq> They imagine that being a CD makes it somewhat time-consuming to copy. And that digital distribution should be DRM'd.
04:21:58 <pikhq> Also, you *know* that the morons responsible for that would make it a lossy compression format, probably encoded by someone who should never breed.
04:22:21 <alise> In the root directory, tracklst.m3u; subset of m3u only supporting absolute-to-root-of-drive pathnames, not URLs; perhaps no comments, either. Also, no extended m3u.
04:22:40 <alise> WAVs in some container with a simple list of predefined tags for the actual audio.
04:22:47 <alise> This would be trivial to support in a stereo.
04:23:08 <pikhq> See, if that were the format I would be totally happy.
04:23:12 <alise> You need a teeny tiny computer board to read the files, a teeny tiny tag parser, and the rest is done for you.
04:23:25 <alise> pikhq: In fact, if we used extended m3u we could just use plain wavs.
04:23:32 <alise> Since extended m3u stores what are basically tags in the comments.
04:23:40 <alise> This avoids parsing a container in stereos.
04:23:52 <pikhq> WAV is already a container format.
04:23:56 <alise> Yeah, but a tagless one.
04:24:25 <alise> pikhq: We /could/ standardise a raw format, *but* it'd be nice to let the silly 48 kHZ, 24-bit releases stay.
04:24:33 <pikhq> The tags are merely not commonly supported or used.
04:24:48 <alise> pikhq: Ideally, you'd be able to load the m3u on a computer and have it Just Work.
04:25:07 <alise> A bonus to all this is that album length will never be a problem.
04:25:21 <alise> Because a 4 GiB flash drive is dirt-cheap.
04:25:26 <pikhq> alise: One problem with this: CDs are really cheap to produce.
04:25:27 <alise> Also, of course, you can have videos and artwork and crap.
04:25:32 <pikhq> I mean really, really, really cheap.
04:25:45 <alise> pikhq: True. And music is really, really, really expensive.
04:25:50 <alise> Physical music, that is.
04:26:00 <alise> There have been singles released on USB, just no standardisation.
04:26:02 <pikhq> Your proposal would cut into the RIAA's profit margins.
04:26:20 <pikhq> Which rely on 2¢ CDs.
04:26:31 <Sgeo> An old laptop that I found wouldn
04:26:36 <Sgeo> wouldn't be able to play it
04:26:53 <alise> Fuck the RIAA with a rusty tree trunk in the process of being chainsawed.
04:26:59 <alise> Then just, you know, don't stop with the chainsaw.
04:27:07 <alise> In fact, leave the branches on the trunk.
04:27:36 <alise> It is so cool that NeXT computers used magneto-optical drives.
04:27:54 <alise> "Minions! I am Steve Jobs and I want to know the MOST AWESOME TYPE OF FLOPPY DISK POSSIBLE so we can use it to store all the data on."
04:28:07 <alise> "Let's put a rewritable CD IN A FUCKING FLOPPY DISK."
04:28:28 <alise> "HERE MR. JOBS IS OUR TWO GIGABYTE FLOPPY DISK"
04:29:11 <Sgeo> I found an ancient laptop
04:30:16 <alise> pikhq: Ignoring all overhead, a 4 GiB flash drive could store 6.6 hours of CD-quality audio data.
04:30:33 <pikhq> alise: Further if you mandate a lossless compression format.
04:30:45 <Sgeo> Oh wait, there is a USB port
04:30:48 <alise> pikhq: Ye-es, but I'm not sure stereo manufacturers would like that.
04:31:06 <pikhq> Most of them are already including MP3 decoders.
04:31:46 <pikhq> If you go for FLAC, then it'll be easier than decoding MP3.
04:32:06 <Sgeo> It's a Toshiba Sattelite 2595CDT
04:33:04 * Sgeo put his Ubuntu DVD into the CD drive
04:35:16 <alise> Although FLAC has a special fixed-point decoder, right?
04:35:30 <alise> (I wonder why that isn't the main decoder? Maybe I'm imagining this.)
04:37:42 <alise> Wow Fedora's LiveCD boots slowly.
04:37:47 <alise> Why is this one of the most famous distributions?
04:37:58 <pikhq> alise: It only supports fixed-point samples.
04:38:04 <Sgeo> My dad said I can keep it!
04:38:25 <pikhq> It is 100% fixed-point, encoding and decoding.
04:38:31 <alise> pikhq: Alright then.
04:38:31 <Sgeo> It's like a ridiculously heavy netbook!
04:38:43 <alise> pikhq: As a side note, a wonderful FLAC bug:
04:38:49 <pikhq> Vorbis is the one with a special fixed-point decoder.
04:38:58 <Sgeo> I don't see a thingy for wifi
04:39:04 <alise> One of the default parameters for, tunekey or something, is blah(0,5) or something of the like.
04:39:20 <alise> pikhq: Of course, in a lot of European locales, what does this read as?
04:39:40 <alise> So a version of FLAC was released which, on *certain locales*, produced larger-than-necessary output.
04:39:46 <alise> Because of a decimal point.
04:39:51 <pikhq> That's ridiculous.
04:39:52 <alise> This is *hilarious*.
04:39:57 <alise> It was talked about on Hydrogen Audio.
04:40:08 <alise> Conclusion: LOCALES AAAAAAAARGH
04:40:09 <Sgeo> Parted Magic is taking a while to load
04:40:26 <Sgeo> (I'm using Parted Magic because it's the only modern distro I have a CD, not DVD, of)
04:40:52 <alise> pikhq: How's Wayland's X11 compatibility; do you know?
04:40:54 <Sgeo> I have multiple-year-old Ubuntus lying around somewhere, and I saw what is probably an ancient Knoppix on the dining room table
04:41:23 <alise> MicroXwin is binary compatible to the Xlib API. However it is neither client server nor network oriented. Graphics operations are implemented in the linux kernel via a kernel module. An open source Xlib library sends graphics commands to the kernel. There is no network overhead and no context switch from X client to X server. This makes our solution smaller and faster than traditional X Windows.
04:41:25 <alise> http://www.microxwin.com/
04:41:31 <alise> If only the kernel module wasn't proprietary.
04:41:34 <alise> That's fucking sweet.
04:42:03 <Sgeo> X11 evilness FIXED?
04:42:13 <alise> An improvement of 62% for asynchronous display or 384% for synchronous display of images of a 100x100 size.
04:42:14 <alise> There are only about 300 Kbytes of kernel memory in use by the kernel module. X.Org server, however, has a run-time memory usage of 12MB.
04:42:15 <alise> The smallest MicroXwin distribution can fit within 1 megabyte of disk space in contrast to the X.Org Server, which has a disk footprint of 1.8MB.
04:42:15 <pikhq> Still fucking sweet, though.
04:42:26 <alise> That isn't Wayland, that's a separate thing.
04:42:35 <alise> No network transparency? Who even uses that nowadays?
04:42:41 <alise> "The library needs to be updated each time Xlib is changed in order to maintain compatibility." ;; durr
04:42:56 <alise> "The additional kernel module x11.ko may crash the system if it is not well-designed or stable." ;; and you trust *graphics card developers*?
04:42:58 <Sgeo> I can't have this comp be on the charge at the same time as fiddling with the ancient laptop
04:43:02 <Sgeo> This, ancient laptop wins
04:43:09 <alise> "Performance is independent of scheduling latency caused by the scheduler, because the X server is no longer a process in the system." ;; this. is. win.
04:43:43 <alise> "MicroXwin can be easily ported to other OS besides Linux. Contact us with more information."
04:43:49 <alise> Therefore, surely the kernel module must be pretty simple?
04:43:52 <alise> Therefore CLEAN ROOM
04:43:56 <SgeoN1> Sgeo is dead. Long live SgeoN1
04:44:47 <alise> LibX11.so is 720K bytes.
04:44:48 <alise> LibXext.so is 7K bytes.
04:44:48 <alise> Kernel module x11.ko is 300K bytes.
04:44:50 <alise> HOW IS IT SO SMALL
04:45:08 <pikhq> Well, it's implementing an X compatible API, not actual X.
04:45:25 <alise> pikhq: Yes ... because I have seen applications directly connect to X11 with a socket ...
04:45:34 <alise> Can xcb be made to work with xlib as a backend?
04:45:51 <alise> pikhq: Then this wouldn't work for xcb-using applications?
04:46:02 <pikhq> alise: You could maybe port it, though.
04:46:12 <alise> pikhq: answer my question >.>
04:46:19 <alise> Like with yes or no :|
04:46:39 <alise> pikhq: Oh. That's such a shame, because XCB is widely-used.
04:46:51 <alise> ERROR: Sarcasm stack overflow
04:47:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:47:18 <pikhq> There's a *lot* of stuff in X11 that you can completely omit when you don't need to care about things like the network protocol.
04:47:19 <SgeoN1> Can K opposite be made to work in low-memory setttings, or is Puppy Linux better off?
04:47:54 <pikhq> Though X on localhost generally doesn't; all that communication is done via mmap.
04:47:58 <alise> Puppy Linux is better-off.
04:48:02 <alise> A pre-Lucid Puppy version.
04:48:16 <alise> pikhq: Nobody forwards X11 any more.
04:48:20 <SgeoN1> What's so bad about Puppy Lucid?
04:48:20 <alise> Which is the only reason it is like that.
04:48:24 <alise> SgeoN1: Not as snappy.
04:48:42 <pikhq> alise: Well, there's NX. That sees some use.
04:48:48 <SgeoN1> But eventually, the non Ubuntu based stuff will be epically obsolete
04:49:37 <alise> pikhq: NX is also a separate thing, isn't it?
04:49:54 <alise> And thus would work fine with microXwin.
04:50:07 <alise> SgeoN1: It isn't now, though. And YOUR LAPTOP is epically obsolete.
04:50:13 <pikhq> No, it takes the X line protocol and transforms it to a much more network-efficient format.
04:50:32 <SgeoN1> Parted Magic is taking forever :(
04:50:36 <pikhq> Which gets displayed directly on the other end.
04:51:53 <SgeoN1> When were the last laptops to proudly display "Made for Windows 98"?
04:52:11 <alise> pikhq: Then it doesn't matter what X11 library you use.
04:52:18 <alise> Okay, sure, so you need an xlib that does it the boring way.
04:52:21 <alise> But you can always install those too.
04:52:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:52:43 <SgeoN1> Well, it also lists NT
04:52:44 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, you just need to make sure that it's got a mundane xlib going.
04:52:50 <alise> With dynamic linking, you could just have an NX wrapper program that starts NX if it isn't running, and then uses the normal xlib.
04:53:01 <SgeoN1> Ok, this is taking forever :(
04:53:23 <pikhq> Actually, you'd have the NX daemon set to start a new session with a linker path to use the normal xlib.
04:53:56 <SgeoN1> Maybe the installed Win98 still works
04:54:04 <alise> Windows 98 never works!
04:54:15 <alise> Stupid rotten IE-integrated piece of monopolistic crap! VIVA 95!
04:54:26 <alise> STUPID FUCKING NON-BRIAN-ENO STARTUP SOUND
04:54:36 <SgeoN1> There's no touchpad. Just nipple mouse
04:54:51 <alise> STUPID FUCKING has quick launch and 95 doesn't sniff sniff
04:55:14 <zzo38> I wrote a program to allow TeX to use UTF-8
04:55:31 <alise> zzo38: I don't think anyone's done that before.
04:55:31 <SgeoN1> http://i.imgur.com/IVWeu.jpg
04:55:50 <alise> zzo38: If you package it up for LaTeX you could get yourself some fame.
04:55:53 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/GhCQ http://sprunge.us/LHiW
04:56:31 <zzo38> alise: It is designed for use with Plain TeX. It is not designed for use with LaTeX. (Someone else can package it for LaTeX if they want to, though.)
04:57:15 <SgeoN1> I don't think I can connect to the Internet from here
04:57:20 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/Windows_98_-_Critical_Update_Notification.png
04:57:24 <alise> 98, the beginning of UPGRADE FASCISM
04:57:24 <SgeoN1> It's a noninternet machine
04:57:32 <alise> SgeoN1: Plug in a USB wifi stick.
04:57:43 <SgeoN1> Ooh, those exist? Awesome!
04:57:52 <SgeoN1> Maybe I should buy one
04:58:20 <alise> "A memory overflow issue was resolved which in the older version of Windows 98 would crash most systems if left running for 49.7 days (equal to 2³² milliseconds)[14]."
04:58:27 <alise> SgeoN1: Won't work with 98, though.
04:58:27 <pikhq> alise: There's been several ways of getting UTF-8 on TeX.
04:58:28 <SgeoN1> There is only one USB port on this thing, so if I do that, I can't use a Linux that stores personal files on USB
04:58:38 <pikhq> alise: Fun fact: TeX is actually character set *agnostic*.
04:58:42 <alise> SgeoN1: Incorrect.
04:58:52 <alise> SgeoN1: They have space on them for drivers, for one, although perhaps not much.
04:59:03 <pikhq> alise: The ASCII handling is done in the font.
04:59:09 <alise> These drivers are Windows XP drivers and you don't need them, obviously. I think they're read-only, though... maybe not!
04:59:11 <alise> SgeoN1: Or: USB hub.
04:59:22 <alise> You can get little ones that might not require extra power if you're only using a drive and a wifi stick.
04:59:34 <alise> pikhq: But UTF-8 has multibyte characters, which is a Bitch.
04:59:43 <alise> Also, the commands are ASCII, so it's not really agnostic.
04:59:44 <pikhq> Yeah, but the pain has already been done.
04:59:44 <zzo38> SgeoN1: You can use a Linux loaded everything into RAM and then you can switch the USB and still use it
05:00:23 <zzo38> alise: It is possible in TeX to change all the category codes to make it act like EBCDIC if you wanted to! (Of course it has to start in ASCII mode, though)
05:00:33 <SgeoN1> Pooh, confidential information
05:00:59 <alise> <zzo38> SgeoN1: You can use a Linux loaded everything into RAM and then you can switch the USB and still use it
05:01:01 <alise> that'll disconnect you
05:01:28 <SgeoN1> Unless it only saves at shutdown
05:01:37 <alise> Fedora 14 alpha won't boot on either of my VMs ^_^
05:01:48 <SgeoN1> Puppy Linux sounds even more perfect for this
05:02:17 <zzo38> I think it could even be possible to change the category codes in TeX to make it accept commands in baudot encoding!
05:02:58 <zzo38> (Of course, then you still have to put each character in one byte though, so there are three unused bits in every byte)
05:03:24 <alise> SgeoN1: you know, it has a hard drive.
05:04:12 <zzo38> In that case, just store all files on the hard drive and don't use the USB to store the files (except when you need to transfer it)
05:05:22 <zzo38> Do you like the codes to make TeX supporting UTF-8 encoding? The codes are available at: http://sprunge.us/GhCQ
05:05:46 <alise> Since when does code have a plural?
05:05:55 <alise> I'm pretty sure it's a mass noun. Unless you can define what "one code" is...
05:06:54 <zzo38> Perhaps it is, you don't make a perfect exact definition of what "one code" is, except in some documents if you have a specific meaning in mind, you write it down.
05:07:20 <SgeoN1> I can get Bill Nye: Stop the Rock! to run on this!
05:07:23 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:08:05 <alise> zzo38: That's like saying "I say this glass has 'waters' in it because I could define a water to be .1 mililiters in a document."
05:08:12 <alise> Which is a bit ridiculous, as clearly water is a mass noun like code is.
05:08:20 <zzo38> Do you think this code is good?
05:09:08 <pikhq> alise: Keep in mind that zzo38 prides himself on having apparently non-native English while being a native speaker. :P
05:09:32 <alise> "I'm a native English speaker, but my mother tongue is German."
05:09:51 <SgeoN1> Ooh, this music is awesome
05:09:52 <zzo38> It is not complete, such as, I have not defined the commands to make it switch from one specific font to the other specific font, and stuff like that.
05:10:03 <SgeoN1> Any chance that this laptop uses SATA?
05:10:08 <zzo38> It also does not do right to left typing, yet.
05:10:22 <pikhq> SgeoN1: It's older than SATA by far.
05:10:44 <alise> zzo38: Still, it's good code.
05:11:08 <SgeoN1> Welcome to Computer Essentials, a hands-on introduction to your computee
05:11:28 <alise> computee: one who is computed.
05:11:37 <alise> I think you typoed.
05:11:40 <alise> That gets very few results on Google.
05:13:02 <SgeoN1> Tutorials for clueless users should not have script errors that they need to respond to
05:13:26 <zzo38> alise: OK. Is it useful to you? You can improve it if you want to. When writing programs in TeX, I figure out more things about TeX, and how to make certain kind of things in TeX, such as the ^\noexpand^ sequence.
05:13:45 <alise> I don't use TeX without LaTeX, so it's probably not terribly useful to me, unless it's compatible.
05:14:09 <zzo38> The command ^\noexpand^ is useful when writing to auxiliary files.
05:14:20 <SgeoN1> http://i.imgur.com/GCylT.jpg
05:15:06 <zzo38> alise: You can try to see if it is compatible, and/or make it compatible, if you want to.
05:18:07 <alise> pikhq: #esoteric needs to found a corporation that makes money in some unspecified way so that we can get an unreasonable amount of tech and put it in a place to mess around with.
05:18:26 <SgeoN1> I did miswrite the model
05:19:38 <alise> pikhq: Okay, now you get to figure out how we make the money. HAVE FUN
05:20:59 <SgeoN1> This tutorial thingy introduced the numeric keypad by comparing it with an adding machine
05:22:29 <Gregor> http://spamusers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13387 // look at the picture I posted of my cubicle, then the long post after that.
05:22:44 <SgeoN1> Now it's about to talk about the mouse. I'm on a laptop with a nipple mouse. What's the proper term?
05:24:31 -!- coppro has changed nick to copprp.
05:25:01 <alise> "I have something even MORE than coprophilia now, baby. ;)"
05:25:09 <alise> ^ How my brain decoded that
05:25:19 -!- copprp has changed nick to coppro.
05:25:21 <alise> Gregor: YOU DIDN'T USE THE Æ LIGATURE WHEN SPELLING DIÆRESIS
05:25:28 <Gregor> alise: I considered it :P
05:25:35 <alise> coppro: "...but you know what? Fuck that shit! Let's."
05:26:06 <alise> Gregor: hahaha wow @ that long post
05:26:08 <pikhq> Gregor: "Noöne appreciates diæreſis marks." would be epic win.
05:26:31 <alise> Gregor: jvcc is someone who is better at being me than me.
05:26:37 <coppro> at least with the conjoined ae
05:26:41 <alise> That's exactly the kind of stuff I wish I was good at doing :P
05:26:59 <alise> (Long, random, depressing, utterly tangential buildings on a hopelessly minor point.)
05:28:15 <alise> Gregor: Your dropdown menus overlap the menu title slightly.
05:28:24 <SgeoN1> Oooooh, found some MIDIs
05:29:08 <SgeoN1> There appears to be no MIDI thingy...
05:29:17 <alise> Gregor: Your music page.
05:29:43 <Gregor> alise: Oh; yes, they do, so?
05:30:05 <Gregor> alise: Your mom is a flaw.
05:30:25 <alise> Also, I have a Lonely Dino submission whose only flaw is featuring the other two pictured characters.
05:30:29 <alise> Also they both talk.
05:31:18 <zzo38> TeX normally ignores the characters 128 to 255, so that means the UTF-8 BOM will be ignored, and the file will work properly.
05:31:24 <alise> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=2,3&comics=1099,1758&strip
05:31:41 <alise> zzo38: the BOM is crappy and nobody uses it
05:31:45 <alise> apart from windows
05:32:00 <zzo38> alise: It works without the BOM, too.
05:32:05 <alise> it's also meaningless in utf-8 :P
05:33:20 <zzo38> It is just that Windows adds it in, so that means it is not necessary to remove it before sending the file to TeX. The problem is if a UTF-8 file includes another UTF-8 file, because my code utfeight.tex doesn't check for the BOM.
05:35:30 <pikhq> What sort of moron decides to stick it in UTF-8?
05:35:50 <Gregor> UTF-8 BOM is so much lunacy.
05:35:54 <Gregor> Microsoft kind of lunacy.
05:36:07 <SgeoN1> Ok, done playing for now. Will explore more tomorrow.
05:36:23 <coppro> the BOM isn't even allowed in UTF-8 IIRC
05:36:37 <SgeoN1> Dear maximized windows, please don't cover the taskbar
05:37:43 <pikhq> coppro: It's allowed but strongly discouraged.
05:40:25 <SgeoN1> Ooh, what a beautiful way, to break my heart
05:42:26 <zzo38> One thing about TeX: When reading the input, if two identical characters with category code seven are read, it will either treat the next two characters as a lowercase hex number, or as a character that 64 will be subtracted from.
05:43:10 <SgeoN1> Word 97 is really fast
05:43:47 <zzo38> So, if ^ is category code seven, and it reads ^^7b then it will be exactly the same as typing { in the file. So, this is valid: \def\abc^^7bxyz}
05:44:55 <zzo38> Example: \write0{^\noexpand^7d}
05:45:16 <SgeoN1> Alise, some song that came with the computer
05:45:31 <alise> <zzo38> One thing about TeX: When reading the input, if two identical characters with category code seven are read, it will either treat the next two characters as a lowercase hex number, or as a character that 64 will be subtracted from.
05:45:41 <alise> There are other messages to respond to.
05:45:56 <alise> Also, I suspected your line was some random song quote since you're prone to them. I had already googled it.
05:46:11 <zzo38> alise: Are you confused?
05:46:27 <alise> By your line, yes.
05:46:36 <alise> Is it basically trigraphs?
05:47:05 <zzo38> alise: Yes, it is like trigraphs.
05:49:15 <zzo38> The utfeight.tex uses ^\noexpand^ a lot
05:50:08 <zzo38> (That is, it creates trigraphs which are then read in later by TeX)
05:50:49 <zzo38> They are better than the C trigraphs.
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05:53:41 <zzo38> // Check if trigraphs are enabled ??/
05:53:49 <zzo38> #define TRIGRAPHS_ARE_ENABLED
05:54:09 <pikhq> zzo38: That's actually a pretty clever piece of work.
05:56:18 <zzo38> pikhq: What are you refering to? The last one? The one before that? The one before before that?
05:56:29 <SgeoN1> .swf file that I tried on the ancient laptop crashed
05:56:39 <SgeoN1> Flash didn't crash even once
05:56:46 <SgeoN1> Compare that to Ubunti
05:58:16 <SgeoN1> Yep. Win98, less than 200mb ram
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05:59:25 <pikhq> zzo38: The C preprocessor check there.
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06:01:11 <SgeoN1> Of course, if I don't run something, how can it crash
06:01:25 <coppro> SgeoN1: your problem there is that Adobe hates Linux
06:01:41 <coppro> if Adobe hated Windows instead, then it would crash a ton on Windows
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06:04:11 <zzo38> Unlike C trigraphs, the TeX trigraphs are actually much more useful.
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06:15:36 <pikhq> Ah, right, they hire a *single guy* to do the Flash port.
06:52:11 <zzo38> Do you want to win a big spider by playing solitaire cards? The guy at FreeGeek thinks it is a good idea.
06:55:44 <zzo38> I do. Perhaps then people will stop bothering me when I am working in my room (they won't fit, so therefore, they can't bother me)
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07:49:52 <SgeoN1> I see the most amazing sight beforehand my eyes, and my cameraphone can't capture it
07:51:52 <oerjan> SgeoN1, the Fermat of photography
07:56:16 <oerjan> so (1) is there something physically there (2) if so, is it moving too fast
07:57:04 <oerjan> hm i guess even (1) is ambiguous
07:57:42 <oerjan> oh (3) have you mislaid your cameraphone? ;D
07:58:36 <oerjan> and (4) have you ingested something you shouldn't
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08:01:44 <SgeoN1> Wow, none of my responses got through
08:01:58 <SgeoN1> And the flash makes it not look as spectacular
08:02:02 <SgeoN1> Many drops of water on the pool cover reflecting the moonlight
08:02:52 <SgeoN1> As though it were a nightsky with many, many more stars
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08:15:14 <zzo38> I have tried making scales with G12TET, meaning it is still twelve tone equal temperament, with the same black keys and white keys, the same piano keys, but that the base is not necessarily 2. I have tried 5/2 and 7/3.
08:16:20 <Sgeo> zzo38's NIH extends to music?
08:16:27 <Sgeo> Sorry, just being silly
08:16:48 <zzo38> Sgeo: What does NIH means?
08:17:26 <zzo38> Which of these scales do you prefer?
08:18:33 <Sgeo> I prefer sleeping when I need to sleep
08:20:55 <zzo38> Please sleep for exactly 29 and a half hours tonight.
08:22:20 <oerjan> zzo38: actually Not Invented Here
08:25:01 <zzo38> Try the G12TET major scale with base 5/2, base 7/3, and base of natural logarithms. Try other bases, too. You do not have to build a new piano keyboard to play G12TET.
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08:33:47 <zzo38> I tried base 5/2, base 7/3, base 11/5, base 13/7 ..........
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08:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover> ALPACA is a CA specifier, not anything more general, yes?
08:58:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I think it should be compilable to Golly's RuleTable format.
09:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Right, so it should be equivalent with RuleTable, excluding any complex semantics I haven't noticed.
09:11:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, and the RuleTree format can already be compiled into from other languages.
09:18:28 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: give your CPU 1024 general-purpose 64-bit registers <alise> because why not <-- well... register file size
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09:39:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Specifying it in RuleTable with no symmetries set is too painful. I'll try Python later on.
10:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's only that in the sense that it includes at least 2 other CAs inside it.
10:08:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how does that make it like mathematica?
10:09:52 <Vorpal> Quadrescence, why not? According to one S. Wolfram it is the best software in the world, including any future ones (except future versions of mathematica)! ;)
10:10:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Quadrescence, but Mathematica is the only practical functional programming language!
10:10:38 <Quadrescence> Vorpal: don't make the artery in my forehead pop
10:10:52 <Vorpal> Quadrescence, I was obviously joking :P
10:11:07 <Quadrescence> i know but Phantom_Hoover is probably like OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH COOOOOOOOL
10:11:37 <Quadrescence> and then Phantom_Hoover will buy 10 copies then distribute them
10:12:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Quadrescence, whyever not? It's the only usable way of doing concurrent programming
10:12:27 <Quadrescence> Phantom_Hoover: don't make the artery in my forehead pop!!
10:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Quadrescence, but it has the world's largest web of mathematical capabilities and algorithms!
10:14:09 <Phantom_Hoover> And immediate integrated access to carefully curated data in diverse areas!
10:14:36 <Vorpal> fun, quoting directly from the manual
10:14:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, don't forget the section on functional programming, it is the most absurd one
10:14:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, and don't forget the unique customisability and connectivity powered by symbolic programming!
10:15:11 <Vorpal> Quadrescence, he is obviously joking :P
10:15:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Quadrescence, what about the industrial-strength string manipulation!
10:15:31 <Vorpal> Quadrescence, perhaps, please use a pastebin
10:16:09 <Phantom_Hoover> With such groundbreaking functions as StringJoin, StringLength and StringSplit!
10:16:28 <Quadrescence> http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=69 <--- mathematica
10:16:59 <Vorpal> Quadrescence, it should be obvious to you that he is being sarcastic.
10:17:15 <Quadrescence> MY BLOOD STILL BOILS because a lot of ppl think those things are true
10:18:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maxima works quite well for a lot of stuff
10:18:39 <Vorpal> and has a less annoying syntax
10:18:56 <Vorpal> especially with wxmaxima it is nice to use
10:19:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, octave is more like mathlab iirc?
10:19:29 <Vorpal> which is iirc more numerical or something like that
10:19:30 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not actually a CAS; it doesn't do symbolic manipulation AFAIK.
10:19:50 <Phantom_Hoover> "Long viewed as an important theoretical idea, functional programming finally became truly convenient and practical with the introduction of Mathematica's symbolic language. Treating expressions like f[x] as both symbolic data and the application of a function f provides a uniquely powerful way to integrate structure and function\[LongDash]and an efficient, elegant representation of many common computations.
10:20:43 <Phantom_Hoover> With such THRILLING DEVELOPMENTS as Map, Apply, MapIndexed, Nest and Fold.
10:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> "The symbolic language paradigm of Mathematica takes the concept of variables and functions to a new level."
10:22:05 <Quadrescence> Phantom_Hoover: Although having a terrible interface, Axiom is probably the most powerful CAS
10:22:17 <Phantom_Hoover> In Mathematica a variable can not only stand for a value, but can also be used purely symbolically.
10:22:58 <Phantom_Hoover> They have a little old man making sure noöne goes behind the barriers.
10:23:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Dear god, how can Mathematica have such a huge ego in its documentation?
10:24:10 <Phantom_Hoover> *Every section* has some ridiculously grandiose claim as to how it adds things much better than anyone else's product.
10:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover> And then there's the price, which is obviously all going towards the massive cost of keeping such a huge ego up.
10:25:14 <Phantom_Hoover> "Mathematica provides broad and deep built-in support for both programmatic and interactive modern industrial-strength image processing\[LongDash]fully integrated with Mathematica's powerful mathematical and algorithmic capabilities. Mathematica's unique symbolic architecture and notebook paradigm allows images in visual form to be included and manipulated directly both interactively and in programs."
10:25:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Translation: you can dump images in the middle of programs and make it look like some kind of weird joke.
10:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathematica's markup is far superior to lesser Unicode!
10:26:51 <Phantom_Hoover> "Mathematica has a highly flexible system for handling dates and times in almost any format, automatically converting between formats, and when necessary parsing strings representing dates. " FFS
10:27:05 <Quadrescence> "Developed at Wolfram Research over nearly twenty years, Mathematica has by far the world's most sophisticated and convenient mathematical typesetting technology. Generalizing the concept of a computer language to allow 2D input, Mathematica allows both interactive and programmatic entry of arbitrarily complex typeset expressions, with publication-quality layout continuously maintained in real time."
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10:28:35 <Phantom_Hoover> "Mathematica routinely handles huge arrays of numeric, symbolic, textual or any other data, with any dimension or structure. Arrays are fully integrated into Mathematica's powerful core symbolic language, making possible extremely high-level array operations that are both elegant and efficient. "
10:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "Using a host of original algorithms developed at Wolfram Research, Mathematica provides powerful functions that automate the process of creating cognitively and aesthetically compelling representations of structured and unstructured data\[LongDash]not only for points, lines and surfaces, but also for graphs and networks."
10:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently, they have someone employed for the sole purpose of writing their documentation in the most over-the-top way possible.
10:29:52 <Quadrescence> [aka wolfram since he doesn't do anything else]
10:42:50 <Phantom_Hoover> "Mathematica has the most extensive collection of mathematical functions ever assembled. Often relying on original results and algorithms developed at Wolfram Research over the past two decades, each function supports a full range of symbolic operations, as well as efficient numerical evaluation to arbitrary precision, for all complex values of parameters. "
10:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathematica provides a uniquely integrated and automated environment for parallel computing. With zero configuration, full interactivity and seamless local and network operation, the symbolic character of the Mathematica language allows immediate support of a variety of existing and new parallel programming paradigms and data-sharing models.
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10:44:53 <olsner> hmm, someone said something to me past the scrollback
10:46:02 <olsner> oh, it was just Vorpal amusing himself with the word "CD-skva"
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11:35:09 <fizzie> Oh, nothing; just some free-flow associating from "CD-skva".
11:35:11 <Vorpal> oh btw, why does RAM has to be such a pain when it comes to getting the right type? I mean, for harddrives it is basically SATA or PATA. If you have the right type it will work, maybe not at optimal speed, but it will work.
11:35:36 <Vorpal> for RAM you seem to need to match speed, the number after DDR and so on
11:37:59 <fizzie> The number after DDR, sure, but I don't know about matching speed; I haven't had any problems using sticks at less-than-rated speeds.
11:38:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, also the connector type
11:38:24 <Vorpal> laptop sized vs. desktop sized
11:38:47 <fizzie> Yes, well, that should be pretty obvious.
11:38:47 <Vorpal> a laptop harddrive will work in a desktop, just you have to find some way to mount it
11:38:52 <Vorpal> the connectors are the same
11:39:35 <fizzie> They use a different connector in 2.5" IDE drives than desktop-sized ones; one that has power in it.
11:39:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm okay, for sata it looks the same though?
11:40:04 <fizzie> SATA fortunately uses the same.
11:40:12 <fizzie> But it's smaller anyway.
11:40:59 <fizzie> They do have a mini-SATA too, but I've never seen one live anywhere.
11:41:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, CPUs are even worse, due to the proliferation of different sockets.
11:42:51 <fizzie> 1.8" SSD drives widely use something called micro-SATA, it seems.
11:43:33 <fizzie> Anyway, for HDs it's usually easy to find adapters, as long as you're installing the disk into a bigger slot than it needs.
11:43:53 <fizzie> The next size down from 2.5".
11:44:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, what the fuck do you find that in=
11:44:47 <fizzie> Small netbooks, maybe? I don't know, but they sell those anyway.
11:45:27 <fizzie> (There have been 1.8" IDE drives for quite a while, too.)
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11:50:19 <fizzie> There's a (DDR) SO-DIMM to DIMM adapter, but it seems to be designed for testing SO-DIMMs with a memory chip tester, not for actual use in a computer: http://www.memorytesters.com/ramcheck/rc200conv.htm
11:50:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, they should make 1 TB drives the size of compact flash cards.
11:51:04 <Vorpal> hm... now to chose the name of the laptop
11:51:39 <Vorpal> I have phoenix and dragon currently. Need something along the same theme. And not kraken (since that means something else in Swedish)
11:51:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, any suggestions?
11:52:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: The CF spec only goes up to 128 GB (28-bit LBA addressing), so...
11:53:18 <fizzie> Pegasus sounds appropriate for a laptop.
11:54:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, that would fit with dragon also being a laptop, but then phoenix is an old dell tower (one of those with strange PSU connector)
11:56:19 <fizzie> NetHack's monster db is a good source for names; mooz used to pick names from there. (He had at least zruty, tengu and couatl.)
11:56:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, that lacks phoenix though
11:57:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm woodchuck. But well I went for pegasus already
12:00:05 <fizzie> grep -B 5 M1_FLY monst.c | grep 'MON(' | cut -c 10- | sed -e 's/".*//' => http://p.zem.fi/3n9j -- everything that flies.
12:00:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, my theme was not "flies" but "impressive/awesome mythological creates"
12:00:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, that everything so far flies is just pure coincidence
12:01:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, that was a joke :P
12:02:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm does lucid use grub2 or grub1?
12:04:07 <fizzie> Not completely sure though.
12:04:30 <Vorpal> (I tried gobolinux, couldn't get it working on usb stick, and no cd-r around)
12:06:01 <fizzie> Maverick's due out in 15 days.
12:06:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, going for LTS :P
12:06:47 <fizzie> It's probably going to be buggy at lauch anyway.
12:07:42 <fizzie> Especially since they want it out on 10/10/10 no matter what shape it's in. :p
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13:16:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: Because it's "the perfect ten".
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13:33:32 <fizzie> Well, they have that "time-based releases" thing anyway, so it's just a matter of scheduling it to that particular day.
13:34:12 <fizzie> It's also a HHGTTG reference, since 0b101010 == 42.
13:34:31 <fizzie> Cf. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-marketing/2010-May/003987.html
13:36:18 <fizzie> Also, Natty Narwhal will focus on making Ubuntu look prettier. :p
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13:36:33 <fizzie> (I'm not sure what Maverick focuses on, except that there's some netbookery going on.)
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13:42:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Does anyone know if Python has a builtin to compute the number of instances of x in an array?
13:43:08 <fizzie> There's a count() method.
13:43:19 <fizzie> >>> [1, 2, 3, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4].count(2)
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13:45:00 <fizzie> Or was it a HackEgo thing?
13:45:33 <fizzie> I guess it wouldn't be a HackEgo thing.
13:46:00 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
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13:46:09 <fizzie> Oh, so there's just Perl. I guess python's not esoteric enough.
13:46:30 <Phantom_Hoover> What? Have you seen what you can do with some lambdas and no remorse?
13:46:42 <fizzie> Anyway, I was trying to say that you could also do a list comprehension and len, as in len([x for x in [1, 2, 3, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4] if x == 2])
13:47:18 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbJ-y6BWfUc this is awesome
13:47:19 <fizzie> Or sum(1 if x == 2 else 0 for x in [1, 2, 3, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4]) to avoid an intermediate list.
13:49:10 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, compiling ALPACA into one of Golly's formats: worthwhile?
13:50:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'm sure you could add it as a new format.
13:51:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Coding the ALPACA algorithm into Golly by myself? In C++?
13:54:32 <fizzie> Different classifiers, different results: http://zem.fi/~fis/esoconfnf.png → http://zem.fi/~fis/confsvmc.png except that the horrible octave-nnet took an hour to test the first one, whereas the latter happened in about seven seconds of scipy/numpy/mlpy.svm/matplotlib.
13:55:56 <alise> fizzie: are you merging ihope with Warrigal, uorygl, kerlo, ...? :P
14:03:29 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: octave-nnet is octave-forge's neural networking thingie; it's rather horrible.
14:05:33 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You may not have talked enough; 20000 comments is a minimum for that particular list. You seem to have 13851 at the moment.
14:05:50 <fizzie> Or a bit more, I haven't ran updatedb in a while.
14:06:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
14:06:36 <fizzie> Also, leaving like that in the middle of my comments isn't winning you any points!
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14:18:35 <fizzie> A collection of add-on stuff for Octave.
14:18:44 <fizzie> I think they picked the name to resemble sourceforge.
14:24:21 <alise> [[A multidimensional language, where the program is a set of points in Rn and a function which maps these points onto Rm; this process then repeats with the new program and a new function on Rm. Maybe it could be called something like Projection or Linear Map (although these may be too normal/restrictive, in which case Morphism?).]]
14:24:24 <alise> Good luck computing that!
14:24:35 <alise> Rx being R^x ther.
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14:34:04 <FireFly> http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/symlinks/index.php ← neat
14:34:36 <alise> hee, i forgot about that thing
14:38:39 <alise> woot, apparently the Neverhood works perfectly in WINE
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15:16:27 <alise> I hope I have a 75 MHz Pentium processor, 8 megs of RAM -- or preferably 16, 1 meg of video ram, an SVGA monitor, a quad speed CD-ROM, 8-bit sound card and speakers or preferably 16-bit, and 10 megs of hard disk to store it.
15:22:44 <alise> *sniff* Looks like I'll have to contact my retailer for an upgrade.
15:24:38 <alise> Now why doesn't Ubuntu mount this ISO properly?
15:25:00 <alise> Well, "mount", it's actually trying to use gvfs to view it as a virtually "mounted" acrhive.
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15:26:29 <pikhq> Awesome. PS3 jailbreak ported to Rockbox.
15:28:49 <pikhq> And... The PS3 controller?
15:30:13 <fizzie> Noticed that thing in the Maemo repositories a while ago.
15:30:43 <fizzie> (By "that thing" I mean the jailbreak itself, not those two ports, of course.)
15:33:02 <alise> <pikhq> Awesome. PS3 jailbreak ported to Rockbox.
15:34:14 <alise> pikhq: Why don't ordinary users have mounting powers on Linux? At least loopback mounting.
15:36:34 <pikhq> Could hypothetically mount a filesystem that's got /dev/kmem with them having access.
15:36:46 <alise> pikhq: From a loopback file?
15:37:21 <pikhq> Any filesystem could have the required inode.
15:37:31 <alise> pikhq: okay, new question
15:37:36 <alise> why is mounting so badly designed?
15:37:42 <pikhq> Because hell if I know.
15:38:13 <alise> ------------------------------------
15:38:17 <alise> This program requires Windows 95 to run.
15:38:21 <alise> ------------------------------------
15:38:23 <alise> and it doesn't install :)
15:38:27 <alise> time to tell wine to be windows 95
15:38:51 <alise> groan, i'm going to have to NoCD hack an ISO
15:40:26 <alise> checking for directx 3.0!
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15:40:38 <alise> now it wants to restart windows
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15:41:51 <alise> pikhq: 640x400, resolution of kings!
15:43:31 <fizzie> Yeah, square pixels are so... square, after all.
15:43:48 <alise> Ookayyy, that didn't work so well.
15:55:23 <alise> Sound in WINE doesn't appear to work at all.
16:04:33 <pikhq> MusicBrainz Picard is so great for fixing dumb tags.
16:08:20 <alise> Okay, the Neverhood now works, but without sound. I believe this to be because WINE is failing at sound altogether.
16:08:43 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:09:38 <oerjan> 00:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover> ALPACA is a CA specifier, not anything more general, yes?
16:09:41 <oerjan> 00:58:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I think it should be compilable to Golly's RuleTable format.
16:10:54 <pikhq> Beats manually tagging 33 gigs of music.
16:11:41 <oerjan> i did at one time ponder a language "ALPA" in which ALPACA would be a DSL simply by loading a library
16:14:53 <oerjan> some features i vaguely recall: if a word identifier didn't exist, it would look it up as a sequence of single letter identifiers (allowing nw and se e.g. to just be a sequence of them)
16:16:13 <oerjan> and there would be macro definitions which could take arguments that could be either words, sequences of words, or bracketed sequences of stuff, iirc, so that ALPACA's commands could be defined simply as macros or so
16:17:52 <oerjan> well "words" could also be bracketed things, i think. oh it may not have been bracketed but line separated for the third argument form
16:18:18 * oerjan is currently vague on ALPACA as well
16:22:30 <oerjan> there was also some automatic conversion between objects, methods and functions with basic ALPACA command ending up interpreted as chains of methods
16:26:33 <alise> gravity is melting
16:27:00 <oerjan> it seemed to be approaching some kind of (possibly) purely functional object-oriented language
16:28:12 <oerjan> alise: NEWS FLASH! GLOBAL WARMING WILL CAUSE US ALL TO FALL OFF EARTH
16:30:34 <oerjan> incidentally this would iirc make ALPA(CA) handle neighborhoods larger than moore by just using designations such as nnw (being automatically split into a chain of n n w)
16:32:10 <fizzie> oerjan: I must confess I don't quite see the link between global warming and ALPACA.
16:32:30 <oerjan> fizzie: um you'll have to ask alise about that interlude
16:33:09 <oerjan> that was merely my OBVIOUS INTERPRETATION of his statement
16:34:05 <oerjan> of course climate simulations are _obviously_ just giant CAs, anyway
16:35:05 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Aaaaargh, ALPACA supports nondeterminism.
16:35:14 <oerjan> hm that might mess with the pure functionality
16:42:27 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/eso2009.avi -- the channel in 2009. (It's just 333 plots concatenated together, so changes in colors, legend layout, y-axis scaling and such make it a flickery sight; still.)
16:45:16 <alise> fizzie: now do it for all previous years, and make it go much faster
16:45:22 <alise> a fiery spectacle of delight
16:45:25 <alise> fizzie: also, for the galaxies
16:45:26 <alise> watch the cosmos unfold
16:54:07 <alise> fizzie: the big bang of the channel would be fun to watch, but i don't think anyone has logs of the first days
16:54:19 <alise> except maybe andreou or lament :P
16:56:35 <Gregor> I love how I'm competing for the #5 spot with EgoBot :P
16:56:53 <Gregor> And then in September alise just goes "fuck sleeping"
16:57:56 <alise> Wow, Wine takes like five years to build.
16:58:24 -!- FredrIQ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:59:49 <alise> Dear god, Apple have gone even further in their quest codenamed "Make iTunes As Little Like What Actual Mac OS X Applications Actually Look Like As Possible, Even On OS X".
17:00:12 <alise> Specifically, the close/hide/maximise buttons are now *placed vertically*.
17:00:16 <alise> Why? Because fuck you, this is iTunes!
17:07:57 <Gregor> That's ... very unapple.
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17:10:27 <Sgeo> Sine YouTube comment: "Not 100% sold on the show, but I am 100% sold on the music."
17:11:37 <alise> Gregor: No, fucking up iTunes in this way is very Apple.
17:11:51 <alise> They have been doing it since iTunes first existed -- the brushed metal interface, not present in Mac OS 9.
17:11:56 <alise> Or was it 8 or 8.5 it came out for? I forget.
17:19:18 <alise> i wonder why old thinkpads are so awesome
17:19:46 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDYse9RE0QU
17:20:29 <alise> what's that got to do with sine?
17:20:39 <alise> agreed with the comment about the dig there
17:20:51 <alise> actually the dig needs made into a movie, badly
17:20:59 <alise> well, it was meant to be, spielberg :P
17:21:25 <Sgeo> It should have been "Some"
17:23:58 * Sgeo sets up timestamps
17:24:03 <oerjan> and here i tried googling Sine to see if it was some kind of famous band or something
17:24:25 <alise> oerjan: you could say you went off on a bit of a tangent
17:24:30 * alise braces for swatting
17:24:42 <Sgeo> Ah, nice, simple, 12-hour time
17:24:52 <alise> Sgeo: you are joking yes
17:25:01 <oerjan> i even had to set google to give english results only because "sine" is a very common norwegian pronoun (the plural form of that reflexive possessive i mentioned the other day)
17:25:24 <alise> getting swatted for no reason like that
17:25:35 <Sgeo> alise, I'm very used to 12-hour time
17:25:48 <alise> i will never fathom the stupidity that is america
17:26:32 <oerjan> i saw this nice oscar wilde quote in the newspaper today, let me google the english original
17:26:54 <alise> Wine is still compiling; how?!
17:27:05 <oerjan> "America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between."
17:29:25 <alise> "HUGLAGHALGHALGHAL" --Oscar Wilde
17:29:30 <oerjan> 12 hours should be enough for everyone
17:29:49 <oerjan> alise: i have a hunch that's an uncyclopedia claimed quote
17:30:12 <alise> HUGLAGHALGHALGHAL, interj.
17:30:12 <alise> An all-purpose sound, denoting the act of performing oral sex, the act of receiving oral sex, taking drugs, writing your Congressman, misdialing your party and getting that annoying series of tones, or sitting perfectly still and making no noise whatsoever.
17:30:13 <alise> http://www.jerkcity.com/glossary.html
17:30:30 <alise> although, admittedly, I'm pretty sure it's only ever been used to denote the first...
17:30:46 <alise> either that or Oscar Wilde wrote to his Congressman at one point, which is entirely possible
17:30:52 <fizzie> <alise> fizzie: /~fis/ must be so huge. <-- "ls | wc -l" 548, "du -hs" 4.3G
17:31:01 <oerjan> alise: i found that too, then added "wilde" and confirmed my hunch
17:31:10 <alise> but you've linked to like 549 things in there!
17:31:26 <alise> oerjan: oh, someone actually did make that fakequote
17:31:38 <fizzie> alise: It's been wiped out every now and then, though.
17:31:56 <fizzie> Based on timestamps, though, this current has been it since 2007-10-22.
17:32:51 <oerjan> alise: given that oscar wilde was irish, i find it unlikely he wrote his congressman
17:33:04 <alise> YOU DON'T KNOW THAT
17:33:15 <alise> fizzie: we totally need the output of ls to verify.
17:33:25 <alise> i have a feeling you're FABRICATING
17:33:27 <fizzie> But, but, but! Private stuff!
17:33:28 <oerjan> especially given his attitude to america. although maybe that was what gave him his attitude.
17:33:28 -!- nooga has joined.
17:33:36 <alise> fizzie: "All that private stuff, that I put on my public HTTP server."
17:34:46 <alise> make[1]: *** [depend] Error 1
17:34:48 <alise> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
17:36:32 <olsner> alise: haha, you failed
17:36:49 <alise> olsner: building wine is a *bitch!*
17:40:26 <oerjan> fish is an important part of a complete breakfast
17:40:57 <fizzie> alise: Here you go: http://zem.fi/~fis/eso2004-2009.avi -- more years, more speed.
17:41:44 <alise> fizzie: Way insufficient speed.
17:41:55 <alise> I want the whole channel to go by in 15 seconds or less!
17:42:07 <alise> fizzie: you didn't merge zuff into alise
17:42:21 <fizzie> My mergings are insufficient, that's true.
17:42:42 <nooga> oerjan: maybe in norway
17:42:43 <olsner> lol, the wine people don't seem to have found -fshort-wchar
17:42:45 <alise> fizzie: now do it again but with the wonderful galaxy cosmoses :P
17:42:57 <alise> Big Bang to present day
17:43:47 <Gregor> olsner: That's weird since the man page specifies that it's FOR wine :P
17:44:34 * oerjan was actually alluding to http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdjacentToThisCompleteBreakfast
17:44:41 <olsner> heh, but their coding conventions explicitly say that you have to create an array of WCHAR for every string :)
17:45:30 <alise> Wine build complete.
17:47:44 <nooga> i just found an interesting photo of my flatmate ;f
17:48:28 <Gregor> nooga: Before ... the operation?
17:48:45 <oerjan> before the tragic incident
17:48:55 <oerjan> or perhaps, just after
17:49:33 <nooga> it's like she's wearing wermacht's uniform and sits on a retro bike
17:49:35 <alise> Building Debian package... FAILED!
17:49:55 <alise> Gregor: "The operation... that turned me from a duck... into a human."
17:50:01 <alise> dpkg-deb - error: (upstream) version (`git') doesn't contain any digits
17:50:34 <alise> It's now git-1. :P
17:55:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:56:37 <alise> lol by upgrading wine i broke it
17:58:25 <alise> http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firebird/nightly/2003/07/2003-07-22-21-1.5a/MozillaFirebird-i686-pc-linux-gnu.tar.gz
17:58:29 <alise> Old browser ... is old.
17:59:39 <alise> ./MozillaFirebird-bin: error while loading shared libraries: libgtk-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
17:59:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:59:49 <alise> There's a more recent build using gtk2 and xft though. :^)
18:00:11 <oerjan> grmble the sprocket server is much more unstable than hagbart was :(
18:02:09 <alise> and now it inexplicably works perfectly
18:02:50 <alise> Not sure how to scale the 640x400 to something more my-screen-sized, though.
18:02:57 <alise> Anyone any good at using Wine? :P
18:03:41 <fizzie> I don't think it has any screen scalers built-in.
18:04:24 <alise> Can you use one with it, though?
18:04:49 <alise> Also, is there anything in Wine that can relieve the terror caused by a game's sky being designed to be pitch black, even though the rest of it is cheerful claymation?
18:04:50 <Vorpal> alise, hm I just found out that that old dell has IR built in.
18:05:04 <alise> It is... disturbing.
18:05:15 <alise> Please feed my pet flytrap. He eats ring-food.
18:05:29 <alise> Funnier with the blank lines in-between. :P
18:05:37 <Vorpal> alise, what game is this?
18:05:42 <alise> Vorpal: The Neverhood.
18:05:46 <nooga> neverhood was awesome
18:05:53 <alise> A wonderful clay stop-motion point-and-click adventure game.
18:06:21 <alise> Vorpal: even the menus are clay :)
18:07:13 <alise> Of the clay menus?
18:07:56 <alise> Vorpal: http://imgur.com/fIEOe.png
18:09:01 <fizzie> There's that old zxoom tool that can scale any defined part of the X screen, but it might not exactly be fast. Maybe some of the compositing video managers could "natively" scale a window, though? It shouldn't be a very difficult task.
18:09:28 <alise> I also want it fullscreened and with pillarboxes to the left and right. :P
18:11:11 <fizzie> It's 16:10 in theory, though I guess the game might actually be designed for non-square pixels so that the screen's aspect ratio is the usual 4:3?
18:11:18 <Vorpal> alise, hm battery in that dell is sucky, only charges to about 75%
18:11:20 <fizzie> That's what I recall 640x400 modes usually being.
18:11:23 <alise> Now the audio is broken!
18:11:28 <alise> fizzie: Perhaps. It looks fine windowed in a squrae-pixel display.
18:11:39 <alise> This is circa 1996, Windows game.
18:11:57 -!- iGO has joined.
18:12:42 <Vorpal> very uneven charging too
18:12:51 <alise> Note to past self: Just make a 95 VM to play this already.
18:13:26 <fizzie> Yes, but all CRT monitors tend to be 4:3, and if you change the resolution to 640x400, what you usually end up is a fullscreen view with unsquare pixels, not something letterboxed.
18:13:42 <fizzie> Though if it's supposed to be run in a window, then not.
18:13:44 <alise> fizzie: But it looks fine in square-pixel form.
18:13:47 <alise> It isn't supposed to be run like that.
18:13:51 <alise> But it looks perfectly decent.
18:14:43 <fizzie> Well, anyway; another way to scale it would be x11vnc; you could export the part of the desktop that has the game, then use x11vnc's "server"-side scaling and any VNC client. Probably equally silly as xzoom.
18:14:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:15:10 <Sgeo> I put it down somewhere
18:15:13 <Sgeo> I take the dog out
18:15:23 <Sgeo> I have not the foggiest idea where my stuff is
18:16:01 <olsner> oh here we are being all funny and stuff
18:16:28 <olsner> Sgeo did it better anyway, each line was a sentence
18:16:38 <olsner> and they all started with "I "
18:17:17 <Sgeo> I bought chocolates, which are in the bag
18:17:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: *Weare to tally hilarious.
18:19:01 <fizzie> Heh, someone's actually done the scaling with Xephyr + x11vnc + vncviewer: http://tfischernet.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/enlarge-fullscreen-programs-in-wine/
18:19:15 <fizzie> One of the comments mention a compiz plugin for screen-zoomery, though. That sort of thing sounds a lot more sensible.
18:19:31 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: see my comments on generalizing ALPACA in the logs
18:20:02 <alise> Sgeo is trying to poison his dog
18:21:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, since ALPACA supports nondeterminism, it doesn't specify CAs.
18:30:03 <fizzie> alise: Tested this in stock Gnome-Ubuntu: apparently all you need to do is to make sure compiz is on (System/Preferences/Appearance/Visual Effects > None) and put some keys into System/Preferences/Keyboard Shortcuts/Desktop/Zoom {In,Out} -- then you can zoomity-zoom closer to the Wine window. Unfortunately it will then sort-of keep the view centered to the mouse cursor, which is probably sucktastic for what you want.
18:32:38 <alise> fizzie: Apparently you can fix the mouse cursor into the area.
18:32:52 <alise> fizzie: I'm doing it in VirtualBox now, anyway (in my hybrid Windows 2000/NT 4 monstrosity).
18:33:04 <alise> Latest Wine is unreliable as fuck.
18:33:41 <alise> Great, VirtualBox is too laggy.
18:34:21 <pikhq> alise: It amazes me that there aren't 12cm magneto-optical discs being made.
18:34:40 <fizzie> You could try the old-fashioned way of making your display resolution lower.
18:34:51 <alise> fizzie: Yeaaaah, not on an LCD.
18:35:38 <fizzie> It's going to be messily scaled *anyway*.
18:35:50 <alise> fizzie: No; I just want it to scale up squarely.
18:36:04 <alise> I can deal with slight letter/pillarboxing; just not a tiny game.
18:36:44 <fizzie> Just scale the screen resolution to something with the right aspect ratio but something where the game window is not too tiny?
18:36:51 <Sgeo> alise, 2000/NT?
18:37:04 <pikhq> fizzie: Problem is that common LCDs do not keep aspect ratio when scaling.
18:37:15 <alise> Sgeo: Windows 2000, with NT's explorer.exe and shell32.dll hacked in.
18:37:15 <pikhq> They, instead, just assume that you would OF COURSE want 640x480 at 16:10.
18:37:22 <pikhq> (who the hell wants that anyways?)
18:37:53 <Sgeo> And hacked how? Just dropping NT's stuff in?
18:37:57 <Sgeo> Or was there more?
18:38:16 <alise> Sgeo: Why -- to make IE completely removable and to get a more usable file management interface.
18:38:25 <alise> How -- admittedly, someone else did Most of the Work.
18:38:28 <fizzie> pikhq: That's not a problem: you just scale the desktop resolution to something 16:10 with a close-enough height, and let the screen scale that.
18:38:35 <alise> Extract explorer.exe and shell32.dll from NT 4 update 6.
18:38:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:38:44 <alise> Hex edit explorer.exe; change shell32.dll to shell32.nt4 everywhere.
18:38:48 <alise> Rename shell32.dll to shell32.nt4.
18:38:59 <alise> Put shell32.nt4 in C:\WINNT on the 2000 machine.
18:39:07 <alise> Uh, or maybe in system32.
18:39:14 <alise> Replace C:\WINNT\explorer.exe with the NT4 version.
18:39:26 <alise> Remember to subvert Windows File Protection and various other in-use safeguards when doing the above.
18:39:31 <alise> Enjoy the bugginess.
18:41:07 <pikhq> Hmm. If I were more inclined to do Win32 programming, I'd just write an Explorer clone that'd work unbuggily on Win2k.
18:41:21 <alise> pikhq: ITT: ReactOS
18:41:35 * Sgeo wants to use ReactOS someday
18:41:46 <alise> "If this post reaches the front page, I will stream video games one a night for a month to raise money for Child's Play." --reddit
18:41:50 <alise> How horrific that will be for you.
18:41:53 <Sgeo> Maybe in 2 decades, when it's somewhat working
18:42:01 <alise> Sgeo: Actually wanting to use ReactOS is a sign of idiocy.
18:42:12 <alise> ...thinking that ReactOS will still be relevant in twenty years is a sign of I have no freaking idea.
18:42:25 <alise> You'll be over forty, by the way.
18:42:53 <pikhq> ReactOS is *somewhat* working now.
18:42:58 <Sgeo> How old is WINE?
18:43:03 <pikhq> Mostly courtesy of WINE having done most of the hard work.
18:43:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: About 15 years.
18:44:48 * Sgeo ignores Ubuntu's warning about restricted use
18:45:55 <Sgeo> And as punishment, I am hit with hellish lag
18:51:48 <alise> pikhq: I hereby command you with using QEMU to get a working NT 4 system on a non-x86 architecure.
18:55:12 <alise> Windows 3.1 found a niche market as an embedded operating system after becoming obsolete in the PC world. Up until November 2008, both Virgin Atlantic and Qantas employed it for some of the onboard entertainment systems on long-distance jets. It also sees continued use as an embedded OS in retail cash tills[13].
18:58:02 * pikhq wishes to have money
18:58:08 <Gregor> alise: I've tried to do that before.
18:58:10 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:58:23 <Gregor> alise: I haven't managed to get non-x86-NT working in any emulator :(
18:58:45 <alise> Gregor: Whuzza point, though? It's just going to be a souped-up DOS with servers.
18:58:49 <pikhq> It'd be nice to, say, have more hard drive space and a better graphics card.
18:58:59 <pikhq> (I'm currently using an on-board GPU)
18:59:06 <Gregor> alise: #1 reason would be to prove to you that your "no-GUI" claim is wrong :P
18:59:14 <alise> Gregor: It is not. But okay, let's try.
18:59:20 <alise> Gregor: Pick an architecture. I will pick another.
18:59:31 <pikhq> alise: Multitasking makes it a bit more than "souped-up".
18:59:46 <pikhq> Likewise with memory protection.
18:59:46 <alise> pikhq: I have a fair amount of money (well, as far as computer hardware goes), but you can't have it unless you do something really awesome.
18:59:56 <alise> Would you prefer I tried Alpha or PowerPC?
19:00:02 <alise> You're trying to maximise the changes of GUI here, remember.
19:00:08 <Gregor> Alpha would be more compelling, PowerPC more likely to work.
19:00:13 <Sgeo> Is it even possible to still buy Win3.1?
19:00:19 <pikhq> alise: Awesome? Okay. 2 Xeons in a box.
19:00:20 <Gregor> alise: Frankly I think you won't get either of them working :P
19:00:27 <Gregor> Sgeo: I'm sure if you've got enough money it is.
19:00:43 <alise> pikhq: Nonono, something awesome that isn't related to the money you get.
19:00:48 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes; MSDN account.
19:00:54 <alise> pikhq: That's not buying.
19:01:08 <alise> Gregor: Which is more likely to have a GUI, in your opinion?
19:01:10 <pikhq> alise: You pay for the MSDN account.
19:01:14 <alise> Assume I am a magic making-it-work person.
19:01:22 <pikhq> alise: Y'know, the one that gives you access to all Windows.
19:01:26 <Sgeo> What does MSDN account give you, besides free Win... ah
19:01:40 <alise> Gregor: Okay; you get a MIPS version, I'll get PowerPC.
19:01:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: Also most of their dev stuff.
19:01:47 <alise> Any method acceptable, including actually buying real hardware.
19:01:55 <Gregor> alise: 3.5 shipped with all the versions on the disk, does 4 not¿
19:01:59 <alise> The challenge ends when either one of us gets it working, or one of us dies.
19:02:02 <alise> Gregor: Well, yes, it does.
19:02:11 <pikhq> (by "most" I mean "most *versions*". You'll probably miss out on Microsoft BASIC for the Altair.)
19:02:17 <alise> Gregor: I recommend we use a non-updated copy.
19:02:23 <alise> Who knows if the updates like the other architectures or not?
19:02:33 <alise> Gregor: http://www.torrentz.com/45866c5c7f7e94c7abfc644a869d8d8d27ed875e
19:02:36 <alise> Gregor: It's small, too.
19:02:56 <alise> Serial key on the http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3632026 link; will go faster if you paste the other trackers in.
19:03:17 <alise> Gregor: Are the updated copies likely to work with the other archs...?
19:03:34 <Gregor> alise: http://vetusware.com/download/Windows%20NT%20Server%204/?id=3438
19:03:46 <alise> Gregor: that's the server version
19:03:52 <alise> less likely to have the gui on other archs if you ask me
19:04:04 <alise> also, it's a .rar, and I doubt it has an .iso inside
19:04:10 <alise> also it wants me to register
19:04:21 <Gregor> It probably does, but I'll check. Vetusware is well worth registering :P
19:04:45 <alise> Please check your email for your account password.
19:04:50 <pikhq> alise: http://www.typewritten.org/Media/Images/winnt-4.0-ppc-new.install.png
19:04:58 <alise> I can pick my own goddamn p--
19:05:01 <pikhq> Yeah, that's NT 4 on a PowerPC.
19:05:04 <alise> pikhq: You have damaged the sanctity of the contest.
19:05:12 <alise> That image is photoshopped.
19:05:16 <alise> I refuse to say a word.
19:05:19 <alise> Gregor: Meanwhile,
19:05:28 <alise> Gregor: Still wanna do MIPS, or Alpha?
19:05:34 <alise> Maybe those don't have GUIs.
19:05:37 <pikhq> alise: That said, you will be totally awesome if you get it actually running.
19:05:39 <Gregor> MIPS. And it will have a GUI :P
19:05:44 <alise> Gregor: Alright then.
19:05:47 <alise> I'll go for Alpha, then.
19:05:59 <alise> pikhq: Fuck, now I want to build a non-x86 machine and put NT 4 on it.
19:06:06 <alise> And then install all the zero pieces of software you can get for it.
19:06:17 <alise> Gregor: it's not big enough, that rar
19:06:20 <alise> to contain the iso for all archs
19:07:15 <Gregor> I know that http://vetusware.com/download/Windows%20NT%20Server%203.51/?id=3436 is all archs from a previous download.
19:08:02 <pikhq> alise: Make it a PReP system and it'll work out of the box.
19:08:02 <alise> Gregor: Ha ha that 4 one is just i386.
19:08:23 <pikhq> alise: PowerPC Reference Platform.
19:08:23 <alise> Gregor: http://www.torrentz.com/275db63b173b4930e191c8e2f1a8415e66d670f2
19:08:27 -!- igo_ has joined.
19:08:29 <alise> NT 4 server, almost 400 megs, seeded.
19:08:41 <pikhq> alise: Alternately, CHRP. Common Hardware Reference Platform, also PowerPC.
19:08:44 <alise> pikhq: NO! I must build it manually.
19:08:50 <alise> And it shall be named Ivory Tower.
19:09:04 <pikhq> alise: You could actually *build* one of these.
19:09:06 <alise> Or IVORYT in Windows. :P
19:09:12 <alise> Gregor: "Iso by Mr. BirdPoo"
19:09:15 <alise> You know it's authentic.
19:09:22 <Gregor> Sounds about right to me!
19:09:27 <pikhq> alise: If you make it CHRP, you could get *Mac OS 8* on there as well.
19:09:32 <alise> Comments are Swedish but the torrent has "English" in the name.
19:09:34 <alise> OH WELL LET'S TRY THIS
19:09:46 -!- iGO has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:09:57 <alise> Gregor: Make sure to use http://www.torrentz.com/announce_275db63b173b4930e191c8e2f1a8415e66d670f2, ofc, otherwise it'll be sloow.
19:10:04 <alise> It'll be slow anyway, but!
19:10:18 <alise> Wait, if these rars don't have isos in them...
19:10:23 <alise> how do we make qemu boot from them?
19:11:20 <alise> Gregor: I'm gonna go for Alpha, since we know PowerPC Works.
19:11:25 <alise> So it's Alpha vs MIPS.
19:11:31 <alise> You have the cooler architecture. :P
19:11:35 <Gregor> I don't have a torrent client :P
19:11:50 <Gregor> Tell me what to write after "aptitude install"
19:12:15 <alise> Gregor: transmission-gtk
19:12:37 <alise> Then open that .torrent file, double click the torrent in the list, go to trackers, edit the list, and paste the *contents* of http://www.torrentz.com/announce_275db63b173b4930e191c8e2f1a8415e66d670f2 in.
19:12:44 <alise> Sit, wait, hope your router supports UPnP.
19:13:35 -!- igo_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:13:46 -!- iGO has joined.
19:14:48 <Gregor> ... does transmission support DHT? :P
19:14:59 <alise> Think so, yes; why?
19:15:31 <pikhq> Also peer exchange.
19:15:33 <alise> Gregor: You should get a good speed just from those trackers.
19:16:45 <pikhq> It's actually a full-featured client. With a rather minimal UI.
19:16:53 <alise> *a rather awesome UI.
19:17:07 <alise> If you disagree, try using Azureus. Sorry, I mean Vuze.
19:17:29 <Gregor> The UI is fine, it's the features I was concerned about :P
19:18:52 <alise> The worst BitTorrent client is the default one.
19:19:07 <alise> You can see almost no information, you can configure almost nothing, and it only does one file per window.
19:19:18 <alise> Although nowadays it's just a modified uTorrent.
19:19:52 <Gregor> Give it a break, it invented BitTorrent :P
19:24:33 <alise> Gregor: And then continued being updated for many years past its expiration date.
19:34:11 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:35:16 -!- wareya has joined.
19:40:02 <Sgeo> alise, what do you think of Mozilla Seabird?
19:40:34 <alise> I refuse to comment on flashy UI proof-of-concept videos.
19:41:52 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
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19:46:08 <Sgeo> alise, when will you continue reading FS?
19:46:12 * Sgeo almost said watching
20:14:53 <fizzie> A friend had an Alpha with NT on it; I don't know why, but somehow I've always felt Alphas are boring. Maybe it's the PCI bus, it's so normal.
20:15:50 <fizzie> But I was under the impression that it was the most viable non-x86 NT thing.
20:16:10 <alise> fizzie: Shut up, we're doing PPC.
20:17:52 <Sgeo> Why did x86 win, exactly?
20:21:07 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:21:39 <alise> Sgeo: intel have a lot of money
20:21:50 <alise> microsoft chose it first
20:26:11 <Sgeo> "These extensions are known as Intel VT (code named "Vanderpool",) and AMD-V (code named "Pacifica".) Although most modern x86 processors include these extensions, the technology is generally considered immature at this point with most software-based virtualization outperforming these extensions.[19] This is expected to change as the technology matures."
20:31:10 <Vorpal> Sgeo, as long as it is faster than bochs!
20:31:13 -!- augur has joined.
20:32:44 <fizzie> It might be worth noting that [19] is a 2006 paper; I think (not my area, just a hunch) they've been steadily improving the virtualization extensions from that.
20:33:33 <Sgeo> Hmm, has Vala changed since I last looked at it?
20:35:53 <Vorpal> argh left click is broken in X again
20:36:37 <Sgeo> Ok, today's UF is boring
20:36:42 <Vorpal> other input too partly
20:36:44 <Sgeo> Not Illiad's fault, ofc
20:36:58 <alise> http://imgur.com/cWBDT.png
20:36:59 * Vorpal goes for ctrl-alt-backspace
20:37:00 <alise> This is NT 4.0 setup
20:37:02 <Sgeo> It's a repeat, not a guest cartoon
20:38:13 <fizzie> alise: It could do with some more, I don't know, pizzazz; I mean, it looks just like the non-MIPS installer. Maybe a rotating cube or something.
20:38:27 <alise> fizzie: It's in 800x600.
20:38:33 <alise> fizzie: Fucking malcontents.
20:38:56 * Sgeo hits alise with a table
20:39:11 <fizzie> It's in 800x600, yet it puts newlines at the same places the regular installer does, I think.
20:39:16 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/nBL9Q.png
20:39:20 <alise> EXOTIC ENOUGH FOR YOU????
20:39:22 <Sgeo> I'm in a giggly mood today
20:39:28 <Sgeo> Or at least, right now
20:39:34 <fizzie> alise: That's better, yes.
20:39:47 <Vorpal> well that worked, but was rather nasty
20:39:57 <Sgeo> alise, get it to work on OISC
20:40:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, happen to know any command to reset X input stuff?
20:40:09 <fizzie> alise: Was this qemu-system-mips or what?
20:40:18 * oerjan hits Sgeo with a red-black tree
20:40:59 <alise> fizzie: Yes, but no, it's not that easy.
20:41:04 <alise> Gregor can attest.
20:41:27 <Sgeo> I'm heading to #esoteric-silly
20:41:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not a general sort of command, though for keyboardy woes the xkb stuff can help.
20:41:42 <Sgeo> To avoid flooding everyone here with my nonsense
20:41:42 <alise> OH SNAP IT FORMATS THOSE TWO JIGGABYTES SO FAST
20:41:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, well it was first mouse, and then also some keyboard keys a bit later
20:42:03 <Sgeo> Aww come on, no one's there?
20:42:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, happened a few days ago as well, and that was the first time
20:42:31 <oerjan> Sgeo: your attempt to reduce the silliness of #esoteric is DOOMED, i tell you
20:43:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, right click and scrolling still worked, clicking scroll wheel did not
20:43:08 <Sgeo> Me: "Yay! Even more time wasted not recovering my harddrive!"
20:43:21 <Sgeo> Someone: "try putting it in the freezer always works for me"
20:45:11 <oerjan> by making it so obviously ruined that you stop wasting time on it?
20:45:32 * oerjan is juuust guessing here
20:46:05 -!- olsner has joined.
20:46:33 <alise> pikhq: I require funds to build the Ivory Tower MIPS Processing Centre, loaded with the Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 Workstation or Server Operating System.
20:46:42 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:46:46 <Sgeo> I'm not going to do it, but how would it hurt, besides if it got wet and didn't let it dry first before attempting recovery
20:48:03 <oerjan> didn't someone say condensation is bad?
20:48:39 <Gregor> Con-den-sation (sation, sation, sation ...)
20:48:48 <Sgeo> This was on Facebook, not on IRC
20:49:10 <oerjan> well i mean here, today
20:49:23 <oerjan> in fact wasn't it you when doing that vacuuming thing
20:49:36 <Sgeo> Compressed air
20:49:56 <Sgeo> A bit of the electronics looked a bit wet from it, wanted to be sure that it looking dry meant it was dry
20:50:11 <Sgeo> Presumably, a HD would dry out too?
20:51:19 * oerjan keeps having no clue :D
20:52:45 <Sgeo> Also, you have a weird definition of "today". It's almost as though days begin and end for you some time other than when they begin and end for me
20:54:07 <fizzie> The compressed air gases-as-liquids tend to be pretty electronics-safe, I believe; evaporate very quickly and so on.
20:54:27 <oerjan> behold my time traveling powers!
20:55:02 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:55:05 <Sgeo> I can time travel too!
20:55:15 <Sgeo> I can even time travel in my sleep!
20:55:23 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Also, you have a weird definition of "today". It's almost as though days begin and end for you some time other than when they begin and end for me <-- did you mean: timezones
20:55:36 * Sgeo glares at Vorpal
20:55:40 <Sgeo> That's The Joje
20:55:57 <Vorpal> oh I thought you were just stupid. No offence meant.
20:56:12 <alise> Vorpal has progressed to outright calling Sgeo a dumbfuck :P
20:57:13 <Vorpal> alise, I added "no offence meant", doesn't that make it okay?
20:57:25 <alise> http://imc1.piccsy.com/13357-ba33a2-500-407.jpg
20:59:19 <Vorpal> alise, btw, what does resolving deltas mean for git clone?
20:59:32 <Vorpal> alise, it takes an awful lot of time, though this is the kernel source tree
20:59:38 <oerjan> alise: you've insulted Vorpal so many times you've infected him!
21:00:52 <alise> It means the server is busy creating a packfile to send
21:00:52 <alise> over the wire. If you pack the repository before cloning
21:00:52 <alise> from it, deltas from the packfile will simply be copied
21:00:52 <alise> into the new pack. This will provide a huge speedboost,
21:00:52 <alise> so make sure to repack the repository on the server every
21:01:55 <Vorpal> alise, hm... why it is then causing intensive harddrive seeking?
21:01:57 -!- jcp has joined.
21:02:07 <Vorpal> alise, it is definitely local, based on htop output and so
21:02:22 <alise> It's not skippable, though.
21:02:23 <Sgeo> I can donate the laptop to my step-mother's mother!
21:02:28 <alise> I guess you could ask them to repack.
21:02:45 <Sgeo> So she has a computer
21:02:49 <Sgeo> I can teach her how to use it
21:02:54 <Sgeo> I'd put a Linux on first, ofc
21:02:59 <alise> Sgeo: that sounds like liquid pain.
21:03:04 <alise> has she asked for a computer?
21:03:12 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:03:13 <Sgeo> She's asked for me to teach her
21:03:37 <Sgeo> Puppy Linux isn't that bad for newbies, is it?
21:03:44 <Sgeo> I'd be there most of the time if she had questions
21:03:50 <alise> I'd install Ubuntu proper.
21:04:03 <Sgeo> On a device with <200MB RAM?
21:04:54 <Vorpal> Sgeo, who are you talking about?
21:04:59 <alise> Vorpal: his stepgrandmother.
21:05:28 <Vorpal> wtf is that? retro computing?
21:05:33 <Sgeo> This thing is from 1999 or so
21:05:34 <Vorpal> not something for a newbie
21:05:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, it is not a good desktop for a newbie though
21:05:49 <Sgeo> Because I found it in the house somewhere
21:05:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, how goes zee btw?
21:06:06 <Gregor> Vorpal: Stalled as it ever was.
21:06:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:06:44 <Sgeo> Also, how difficult is a clit mouse for a newbie? And what should I call it, I'm not saying clit mouse or nipple mouse
21:06:58 -!- cal153 has joined.
21:07:51 <Sgeo> Puppy Linux isn't that terrible for newbies when it works, is it?
21:09:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: Pointing stick?
21:09:30 <zzo38> It is what Wikipedia calls it
21:10:18 <Sgeo> My dad said no
21:10:26 <Sgeo> She needs to help get the house clean
21:10:40 <Vorpal> in theory this is capable of 80 MiB/s, why do I only get about 1.1 MiB/s
21:10:47 <alise> you are not a slave to your father
21:10:50 <alise> how many fucking times do we have to say this
21:11:00 <Vorpal> and harddrives at either end are not bottle neck
21:11:19 <Sgeo> So: Abandon the money he gives me for college, abandon the house I live in...
21:11:48 <Sgeo> And have to have a job that will only serve to distract me further from homework?
21:12:22 <alise> Yes: giving someone a laptop will cause your dad to go batshit crazy and kick you out of the house and never give you any money.
21:12:29 <alise> (If this is actually true and doesn't read like sarcasm, your dad is a fucking lunatic.)
21:12:37 <Vorpal> and CPU on either end is not fully loaded
21:12:48 <Vorpal> in fact *no* resource on the computers are fully loaded by this
21:13:26 <Vorpal> that gbit switch have been able to sustain way more than this before
21:13:49 <Sgeo> He might attempt to take away my computer
21:13:55 <Sgeo> And the ancient laptop
21:14:43 <alise> Sgeo: So, basically, your father is batshit insane and would try and make your life suck because you were generous or acted independently in any way signifying that you are perhaps an adult.
21:15:15 <Vorpal> alise, I fear that old dell laptop may have some vibrational issues with the hdd...
21:15:17 <Sgeo> alise, he's locked my computer and taken away my laptop in the past
21:15:21 <Sgeo> Not permanently, usually
21:15:22 <Vorpal> oh well, lets see how long it lasts
21:15:26 <Sgeo> But for extended periods of time
21:15:48 <Sgeo> Also, my step-mother's mother is moving [back] in. I think that does make a difference to the situation
21:15:55 <alise> Sgeo: So... you're basically just planning to rely on your batshit insane father who's halting your development into an adult because you get money in return for only doing everything he says.
21:17:03 <Sgeo> I think it's been halted enough such that working out how to get out is difficult
21:17:14 <zzo38> Which claims do you agree/disagree? http://jyte.com/claims?by=zzo38computer.cjb.net&page=1 (please note I do not necessarily agree with all of these myself, although I do agree most)
21:18:48 <alise> Sgeo: 1) Get job 2) Move out
21:19:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:21:05 <Sgeo> alise, I don't even know where I'd move to
21:21:12 <alise> Sgeo: You go to university, right?
21:21:32 <Sgeo> I don't know if I could switch to being in a dorm in the middle of a semester
21:21:47 <alise> Sgeo: You could always wait until next semester or just, you know, ask.
21:22:10 <alise> You have serious potential as a programmer, it's just that you haven't seemed to really change much in years.
21:23:18 <nooga> alise: i said: 0syntax
21:23:56 <Sgeo> alise, thank you
21:24:18 <Sgeo> Although by "haven't seemed to change", do you mean going-through-life-wise, or related to programmerness?
21:25:33 <alise> Sgeo: The former, really. You've improved as a programmer.
21:25:35 <nooga> yeah, i also keep mine in secret
21:27:45 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean by that? What do you mean by not a decent wiki account?
21:28:37 <Phantom_Hoover> But *some people* have an irritating habit of not bothering to log in, making it nigh-impossible to find their work quickly.
21:29:02 <alise> (Did you mean me?)
21:29:33 <Sgeo> I'm also under Sgep
21:29:50 <Sgeo> I also don't have much work
21:30:08 <oerjan> hey _i_ always log in. except that one time the other day i didn't notice i'd been logged out.
21:32:48 <Sgeo> I guess I do sometimes do stuff anonymously
21:32:52 <Sgeo> Which seems strange for me
21:33:10 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/24.46.152.130
21:35:21 * oerjan is more annoyed by people editing pages in myriads of small steps, since it fills up the recent changes
21:35:52 <oerjan> there is a considerable overlap with the anonymous editors there though
21:37:21 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, that annoys me too. Particularly because there's a great big "Preview" button next to the "Save" one.
21:40:14 <fizzie> Here's what graphviz thinks who talked the most with each other in 2009 here: http://zem.fi/~fis/conv2009.png
21:40:30 <alise> As predicted, I am the centre.
21:40:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Cuil has been shut down entirely, it seems.
21:40:59 <fizzie> There's also a rather central alise-ais523-Vorpal triangle.
21:41:52 <alise> ah, the days when we had lambabot
21:41:57 <alise> oerjan: go harass gwern to give us lambdabot
21:42:21 <oerjan> me? i'm not even on #haskell any more
21:43:00 <Vorpal> alise, nice phrase I spotted in kernelconfig: "Routing message grabulator"
21:43:30 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You are rather in the middle in http://zem.fi/~fis/conv2010.png though.
21:44:05 <fizzie> (I'm a bit suspicious of the fact that it doesn't even have a fizzie-fungot edge at all, though.)
21:44:05 <fungot> fizzie: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10, then magic damage will be reduced by 10%. a star after any characteristic means it's at maximum strength! no matter what the price! it is, you idiot! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's t
21:44:16 <fungot> fizzie: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono! crono...!
21:44:16 <zzo38> Most of the lines seem to be joined to the node labeled "alise". I think "flexo" is the only node with only one line?
21:44:16 <oerjan> fizzie: you're missing some identifications. oklopol = oklofok, augur = psygnisfive, kerlo = warrigal iirc
21:44:34 <oerjan> and wasn't estoppel someone else too
21:44:44 -!- lambdabot has joined.
21:44:50 -!- Lemmih has joined.
21:45:03 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, I only have alise/ehird/tusho → alise and vorpal/anmaster → vorpal. I'll add those to my nick-canonicalization list now.
21:45:47 <alise> fizzie: you need estoppel
21:45:53 <zzo38> fizzie: What is a nick-canonicalization list?
21:46:03 <alise> and i presume you do * at the end to get the iphones, otherwise i'm OUTRAGED
21:46:08 <alise> <oerjan> fizzie: you're missing some identifications. oklopol = oklofok, augur = psygnisfive, kerlo = warrigal iirc
21:46:25 <fizzie> alise: It matches all your prefixes, yes.
21:46:44 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => m (m a) -> m a
21:47:43 <fizzie> alise: Which one was the current name of "kerlo = warrigal = uorygl"?
21:48:29 * Phantom_Hoover loves the way that his second-strongest conversation line is to fungot.
21:48:29 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!! they're escaping! 1b is escaping! 1b is escaping! 1b is escaping! so! that cathedral to the west?... yes! well then rest and relax! huh?
21:48:40 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
21:48:48 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
21:49:02 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: this would produce an error if reinstated somehow, but using a onespot or twospot variable is reverse-assigned twice in the standard directories for libraries on your computer does run out of memory during compilation, it will print a copyright message and a `next' or `again' was devised by malcom ryan, who implemented `come from'-based multithreading as a standalone line label.
21:49:06 -!- Lemmih has left (?).
21:49:21 <alise> damn, I forgot to thank Lemmih
21:49:25 <oerjan> fizzie: warrigal = tswett last he was here
21:49:27 <alise> oerjan: did you do that?
21:49:52 <alise> oerjan: get lambdabot
21:50:39 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Gah, I *just* redrawed those plots. I'll add that remapping, but won't bother updating those pictures. They're a mess anyway.
21:50:46 <oerjan> fizzie: soupdragon = fax (= misspiggy iirc), scarf = ais523, gregor-w = gregor. for gregor* and oklo* it may be best to use regexes...
21:51:10 <oerjan> i am sure oklopol had more, at least
21:51:15 <fizzie> oerjan: It's already a regex-based map, and I did ^gregor → gregor, ^oklo → oklopol.
21:51:49 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, Vonlebio = me, but that probably won't affect anything.
21:51:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Vonlebio.
21:52:53 <oerjan> alise: i had nothing to do with lambdabot
21:53:06 <alise> how did he appear?
21:53:45 * oerjan wants to cackle evilly, but feels unentitled
21:53:48 * Sgeo should learn to write resumes
21:53:55 <Sgeo> With the little accent thingies, ofc
21:54:24 <oerjan> fizzie: oh Vonlebio = Phantom_hoover too :D
21:54:31 <fizzie> The é in résumé, I guess.
21:55:11 <Vonlebio> Sgeo, do you have a compose key?
21:56:43 <Sgeo> Itś in an annoying place, though
21:56:47 <fizzie> oerjan: Done. Fixedated the pictures, even. (For some values of "fixed"; fdp's layouts leave something to be desired.)
21:57:13 <alise> fizzie: Now do the Origin of the Cosmos.
21:57:26 <alise> That is, the fast-track through 2004-present of the galaxies.
21:57:30 <Sgeo> It's is now itś, and its is now its
21:57:44 <alise> Sgeo: that isn't the compose key
21:57:47 <alise> that's a dead apostrophe
21:57:54 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:58:09 <Sgeo> Añd I used the compose key to make it
21:58:42 <Sgeo> I didńt turn ' into dead apostrophe
21:58:43 <oerjan> fizzie: the 2009 one looks like it got much larger
21:58:52 <Sgeo> The itś thing is just humorous to me
21:59:42 <fizzie> oerjan: The selection of what nodes and edges to include is pretty random. There's at least the "must have at least N comments" cutoff, so the merging of nicks could easily add nodes.
22:00:07 <Vonlebio> “Sgeo,” Vonlebio said, “compose can also be used for nice quotes.”
22:00:23 <Sgeo> Dear Firefox: When you crash, and I restart you, I really, really do not want all my tabs loading again
22:00:29 <Sgeo> In conclusion, fuck you, Firefox
22:00:46 <fizzie> Vonlebio: Also called "smart quotes", because they're obviously a lot smarter than the regular, old, stupid quote.
22:01:10 <Vonlebio> But noöne but me uses it for diæreses (or ligatures).
22:01:27 -!- jcp has joined.
22:01:32 <Vonlebio> Well, it was originally a habit of alise’s.
22:01:50 <Sgeo> Those aren't smart quotes
22:02:01 <alise> smart quotes with compose suck
22:02:03 <alise> with the default bindings
22:02:05 <Sgeo> They're more like bottomless quotes
22:02:13 <Sgeo> Which is kind of hot
22:02:45 <alise> That is the most ridiculous use of the phrase "hot" ever.
22:03:02 <zzo38> How do you modify the list of characters generated by compose key in Linux, for an individual account?
22:03:18 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Rule34Quotes.
22:04:31 <Vonlebio> alise, well, Compose-<-" is a rather ridiculous sequence.
22:04:39 <fizzie> alise: I'm not yet quite sure how to animate those, since the existing system needs quite a whole lot of data for a single point, let alone a whole constellation. I could try out (at some point) just shorter sets, but I think it might jumble everything up rather badly.
22:06:45 <fizzie> Vonlebio: That "PCA points with gaussian covariances" plot that looks like a starry sky. http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapn.png and those.
22:06:48 <alise> fizzie: plot first from only one day
22:06:50 <alise> then first + next day
22:06:57 <alise> so eventually it's the sum total of all logs
22:07:34 <zzo38> On Tuesday I will try the .XCompose. Is it necessary to log out and then log in again?
22:07:51 <Vonlebio> And it requires a restart of the X server.
22:07:54 <fizzie> Vonlebio: They're the two first PCA components; they don't have any sensible labels.
22:08:00 <fizzie> Vonlebio: Principal Component Analysis, you know.
22:09:00 <zzo38> Vonlebio: It is FreeGeek, it is Ubuntu LTSP. Will it work if the terminal is switched off and on again?
22:09:26 <Vonlebio> If that restarts the X server, then yes.
22:10:28 <zzo38> It is Ubuntu LTSP..... do you know anything about Ubuntu LTSP?
22:11:19 <oerjan> less than sane programming
22:11:21 <zzo38> Also, do you know how to make it start the terminal window maximized?
22:11:55 <fizzie> alise: It needs the data split into sets in order to get multiple points per person. Though I could take every N'th comment so that it'd sort-of cumulatively affect each point. The feature-extraction script I have can't quite also do "cumulative" yet -- well, I guess it could if I just regenerate the data files for each frame of animation, and stick the fixed PCA matrix somewhere else. I'll see what I can do.
22:12:35 -!- Rule34Quotes has changed nick to Sgeo.
22:12:36 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:14:03 <Vonlebio> fizzie, what data does it even extract?
22:14:16 <fizzie> Vonlebio: Didn't you see that list of components?
22:14:25 <fizzie> Vonlebio: http://zem.fi/~fis/esomap-comp.png
22:14:53 <fizzie> Vonlebio: It does 60 features, that's just a random-ish selection of 17.
22:15:29 <Vonlebio> So it's an attempt at grouping by writing style?
22:16:53 <fizzie> Vonlebio: Right. The confusion matrices I've seen have been about how well it classifies the points in http://zem.fi/~fis/esomapf.png
22:17:11 <fizzie> (Except that esomapf.png is a 2-dimensional projection, so they're not very "groupable" there.)
22:17:59 <Vonlebio> So wait, you and zzo are highly unusual in writing style?
22:18:20 -!- nooga has joined.
22:18:33 <fizzie> Yes, though you perhaps should keep putting "writing style" in quotes; the features are pretty trivial.
22:19:29 <Vonlebio> Sgeo, don’t start getting any sick pleasure out of that.
22:19:38 <fizzie> It also is not IRC-specialized at all, since we originally wrote that stuff to guess book authorship.
22:19:52 <Vonlebio> fizzie, so why you? zzo38 writes oddly, but you don't really stand out.
22:20:17 <fizzie> Vonlebio: I think it's mostly the sentence and "paragraph" (message) length features in my case.
22:20:53 <fizzie> Vonlebio: See message length distributions, alise vs. vorpal vs. myself: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/len.png -- there's a difference there.
22:21:03 <Vonlebio> Why can't you feed MY ego for this? It's obviously the most important!
22:23:35 <fizzie> Vonlebio: Okay, http://zem.fi/~fis/len.png has you too.
22:24:18 <fizzie> (The Y value where it sort of flattens out and goes noise-only depends on the total number of comments.)
22:24:20 <Vonlebio> Am I that line that goes insane between 150 and 250?
22:25:29 <fizzie> It's the Y value 1/N, where N is the comment count, since that's normalized frequencies of different line lengths, in logscale.
22:25:57 <fizzie> Seems to be a bit below 0.0001, so N > 10000 but not too much.
22:28:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:29:17 -!- sebbu has joined.
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22:32:10 <Sgeo> My love for quotes is not sick
22:32:17 <Sgeo> I'm sure it's perfectly "normal"
22:33:01 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:34:06 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Why?
22:34:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, it has quotes which will push Sgeo’s fetish over the edge!
22:35:39 <zzo38> It doesn't matter, you can use it if you want to
22:36:06 <Sgeo> Hah! Just “quoted” the whole universe
22:36:49 <Sgeo> With all the obvious implications
22:36:51 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Yivo.
22:36:56 <Yivo> Aww, registered nick
22:36:58 -!- Yivo has changed nick to Sgeo.
22:37:35 <Sgeo> Yivo hasn't been seen since 2009
22:37:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Vonlebia.
22:37:47 <Sgeo> Registered the day before
22:37:49 -!- Vonlebia has changed nick to Vonlebio.
22:39:51 <Vonlebio> You can use another Shakespearian acronym...
22:40:09 <Sgeo> Well, that was a bust
22:42:25 <zzo38> Read this, please: http://jyte.com/claims?by=zzo38computer.cjb.net&page=1
22:42:51 <Vonlebio> You win a million points if you can work out what Vonlebio is an acronym of.
22:43:27 <zzo38> Vonlebio: I can't figure out
22:47:06 -!- webquint has joined.
22:47:18 <Vonlebio> FFS there are ads on the 5-second movies.
22:47:33 <Vonlebio> The ads are *6 times as long* as the content.
22:48:15 <webquint> adblock plus probably kills them
22:48:49 <Vonlebio> They're those obnoxious ones that play before the video, so I shall need some further convincing.
22:49:58 <webquint> it kills them on livestream, and various other services. doesn't kill them for hulu. only way to know is to try it.
22:53:19 <Vonlebio> The worst part is that they're Windows 7 ads.
22:54:30 <Sgeo> Is Hashcash dead?
22:57:19 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:59:55 <Sgeo> Kaneva has opened to developers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:01:37 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:15:32 <pikhq> Good *God* the FFXIII soundtrack sucks.
23:18:13 <Vonlebio> pikhq, s/the// and s/soundtrack//
23:18:31 <pikhq> It doesn't even have Prelude!
23:19:01 <zzo38> Does this mean anything to you? "Help! I disagree is full of nuts!"
23:19:24 <oerjan> Vonlebio: s/s\//s\/ /g
23:20:19 <oerjan> zzo38: sounds like something fungot would say
23:20:19 <fungot> oerjan: operand overloading causes a break, as if the command line ( this can be read, here's an example::.
23:24:03 -!- augur has joined.
23:24:22 <zzo38> Have you experimented writing music using notes other than standard 12-TET? Do you want to win a big spider by playing solitaire card? Do you think METAFONT is the best program for designing typefaces? How much garlic do you put in your tomato sauce? How long *isn't* this sentence? How much does Thursday weigh?
23:24:47 <Vorpal> so I have IRDA but nothing else to use it with
23:24:57 <Vorpal> turns out you can't do RCX with the IR port
23:25:02 <Vorpal> since it is not IRDAish at all
23:25:14 <Vorpal> it needs a fixed carrier frequency (unlike IRDA) and what not
23:26:29 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:29:11 <oerjan> no, heck if i know, i don't cook, 18 characters, and 15*10^16 eV/c^2
23:34:24 <webquint> yes, no, dunno, 1 or 2 cloves, one mile, ERROR: Cannot cast type (day) to type (weight)
23:35:01 <oerjan> oh i forgot the spider. no.
23:35:19 <Sgeo> I should look for the power and USB cables for my external HD
23:37:48 <Vonlebio> CONUNDRUM: how is Sgeo pronounced?
23:38:19 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/sgeo.wav
23:38:31 <Sgeo> Note: Don't visit other pages on that site
23:38:37 <Sgeo> I still haven't demalwareized them
23:38:41 * alise visits other pages on that site
23:39:12 -!- gunninK has joined.
23:39:27 -!- gunninK has left (?).
23:39:44 <Vonlebio> Sgeo, I am going to ignore that.
23:40:11 <Vonlebio> The more æsthetically pleasing choice is "Szheo".
23:40:41 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sqeo.
23:41:03 -!- Sqeo has changed nick to SeGo.
23:42:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: LIRC can use some IRDA chipsets for consumer IR with varying levels of success -- http://www.lirc.org/irda.html though I don't think it's quite up-to-date -- but it's mostly a matter of luck. I had one act-ir200l serial dongle I tried to use as a receiver -- there's a driver now -- and it sort-of got some data, but it was too noisy to be usable from more than 10 cm away.
23:42:28 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
23:42:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
23:42:56 <alise> SeGo: "Sir gay-oh", duh
23:43:27 * Vonlebio starts listening to Sgeo karaoke.
23:43:37 <alise> Holy shit SeGo's accent is *irritating as fuck*
23:44:01 <alise> How old were you in that recording?
23:44:05 <SeGo> Vonlebio, doesn't karaoke require lyrics?
23:44:19 <Vonlebio> alise, never comment on other people's voices, since you rarely know how annoying yours is.
23:44:35 <alise> Vonlebio: Enough people have analysed my voice for me to have a guess :P
23:44:42 -!- webquint has quit (Quit: Page closed).
23:44:56 <alise> (I sound like a British 10 year old minus the irritating.)
23:45:02 <alise> (And more, uh, smoothly British.)
23:45:03 <SeGo> It occurs to me that I don't know when I made it
23:45:08 <SeGo> Maybe around 2008 or so?
23:45:13 <SeGo> Hold on, maybe the server knows
23:45:36 <Vonlebio> The first person I ask gives my voice annoyingness 5/10.
23:46:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could perhaps use a webcam
23:46:12 <Gregor> My voice is too annoying for me to want a second opinion :P
23:46:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, after all they tend to pick up IR
23:46:13 <alise> SeGo: Is that accent normal where you are?
23:46:19 <alise> If so: we need to nuke that part of the US.
23:46:32 <Vonlebio> Gregor, I don't recall your voice being particularly grating.
23:46:34 <alise> Wait, I think SeGo lives in New York.
23:46:36 <alise> Let's nuke New York.
23:46:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, when I want to check something IRish works I tend to check in my phone camera
23:46:39 <alise> Get rid of al the hipsters.
23:46:41 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:46:42 <pikhq> SeGo: That is a really bizarre accent.
23:46:51 <alise> He sounded foreign for the first second or so
23:47:05 <alise> Then he just sounded like pure nase (nasal means "relating to nases")
23:47:22 <pikhq> It's, like, a mix of Italian and Minnesotan.
23:48:06 <Vonlebio> alise, DO NOT LISTEN TO HIS KARAOKE
23:48:14 <Gregor> Good lord, why are people so mean X-D
23:48:28 <alise> Vonlebio: LINK ME LINK ME
23:48:34 <Vonlebio> But I therefore sing as little as possible.
23:48:37 <alise> Poor SeGo is going to commit suicide.
23:48:49 <Vonlebio> alise, MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A COPY OF PAINT IT BLACK ON HAND FIRST.
23:48:59 <Vorpal> alise, you know how mic/headphone jacks on computers are normally colour coded?
23:49:01 <Gregor> SeGo: Long Island, right?
23:49:03 <alise> QUICK DOWNLOAD IT BEFORE SEGEO DELETES IT
23:49:11 <Vonlebio> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/paint_it_black_karaoke.ogg
23:49:14 <Vorpal> alise, same for many other connectors?
23:49:30 <SeGo> I'm not deleting it
23:49:36 <Vorpal> alise, which is rather useful. Except they decided they wanted a sober look on this dell. All connectors are gray
23:49:42 <SeGo> It's not the actual lyrics, it's lyrics from
23:49:48 <alise> Now let's use SeGo's hands to punch him and say "Stop hitting yourself!"
23:49:48 <Gregor> I'll record myself singing opera and upload that for you to make fun of :P
23:49:50 <pikhq> Northern Cities Vowel Shift *and* Italian and what the fucking fuck.
23:49:56 <Vorpal> alise, with some light gray labels above on the mid-gray case :P
23:49:59 <alise> Then we can lock him in a cupboard!
23:50:12 <SeGo> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106380
23:50:16 <Vorpal> alise, it's rather absurd if the light conditions aren't good
23:50:24 <Vonlebio> alise, have you listened to it?
23:50:28 <Gregor> pikhq: It just sounds very Long Island to me.
23:50:29 <alise> Vonlebio: preparing to
23:50:42 <Vorpal> alise, actually there is one colour coded port. The parallel one.
23:50:49 <Vorpal> alise, which makes the whole thing even stranger
23:51:05 <SeGo> Why did I upload this?
23:51:05 <alise> I'm sorry, SeGo, but I don't have the endurance to listen to more than one second of that.
23:51:09 <SeGo> This should have been scrapped
23:51:13 <alise> Nothing personal, just... never sing. Ever.
23:51:24 <SeGo> I used to be in Chorus in elementary school
23:51:31 <fizzie> The Dell at work is mostly-black, and also has the front panel mic/headphone connectors black and with very unreadable labels. Haven't looked at the back panel, though, it might be conventionally color-coded there.
23:51:34 <Vonlebio> I have to listen to it in packets of a second to stop myself from going insane.
23:51:35 <pikhq> Yeah, that's not saying much.
23:51:35 <Vorpal> I don't think SeGo sounded too bad
23:51:48 <pikhq> You don't even have to know about pitch.
23:51:52 <alise> Vorpal: You mean the karaoke?
23:51:56 <alise> Or just the "HELLO MY NAME ISN'T SGEO"
23:51:58 <pikhq> Vonlebio: WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOUR SINGING
23:51:59 <Vorpal> alise, no? I meant the name
23:52:04 <alise> Vorpal: http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/paint_it_black_karaoke.ogg
23:52:06 <Vorpal> alise, I missed the karoke
23:52:08 <Vonlebio> He starts singing about half an octave too high!
23:52:16 <pikhq> SeGo: WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOURS
23:52:16 <Vorpal> alise, karoke is almost always bad
23:52:18 <alise> FURTHEMORE SEGEO SUCKS COCKS AND IS HOMOSEXUAL
23:52:22 <Vorpal> so I don't have high hopes
23:52:38 <Gregor> Desire to record myself singing opera increasing :P
23:52:48 <pikhq> Gregor: Understandable.
23:52:56 <alise> all opera sounds terrible, though
23:52:58 <SeGo> I couldn't read the lyrics that were onscreen obviously
23:53:02 <pikhq> Desire to record myself increasing. Lack of microphone constant.
23:53:05 <SeGo> Since those weren't the lyrics I wanted to record
23:53:09 <pikhq> alise: No, bad opera sounds terrible.
23:53:24 <Vonlebio> nooga, it cannot be unheard now.
23:54:06 <SeGo> I can now threaten this channel at will!
23:54:07 <alise> I have a microphone but ubuntu doesn't recognise its existence
23:54:31 <SeGo> I just need to threaten to sing! *sings about his newfound threatening ability*
23:54:47 <Gregor> It's too bad that all IRC clients are preprogrammed to download and play on loop any audio file presented.
23:55:28 <SeGo> I do want to try again at some point
23:55:31 <SeGo> Hopefully get it right
23:55:33 <zzo38> Gregor: No that isn't true
23:55:43 <SeGo> zzo38, that's the joke
23:56:05 <zzo38> Some IRC clients probably have an option (which might be disabled by default), and some do not download them at all
23:56:11 <alise> SeGo: I am pretty sure you naturally cannot sing.
23:57:52 <SeGo> Actually, I know when it was recorded:
23:58:12 <alise> SeGo: Again, is that accent usual where you are?
23:58:37 * SeGo feels like Vorpal and alise are talking about him behind his back :/
23:59:50 <Vonlebio> I think that file is going to have to be banned under some convention or other.
00:00:17 <Vonlebio> Or brought in by the SCP foundation.
00:00:25 <alise> we're talking about something completely different
00:00:44 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:00:55 <SeGo> This _has_ to be one of my practice recordins
00:01:46 <SeGo> I feel like I have a superpower
00:01:50 <Vonlebio> I'm going to take a long time to recover from that.
00:02:07 <SeGo> The last half minute or so isn't that bad
00:02:38 <SeGo> And neither is the first 23 seconds or so
00:02:42 <alise> SeGo: Unfortunately, no human being can wait until then.
00:02:52 <alise> Total skeletal collapse occurs a few seconds beforehand.
00:02:56 <SeGo> I can listen to it just fine
00:02:56 <Vonlebio> I've actually reached up to 1.35.
00:02:56 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:03:07 <Gregor> Well, I recorded it :P
00:03:13 <Gregor> Now, to never ever let anyone hear it.
00:03:44 <SeGo> It might be the microphone..;
00:03:49 <Vonlebio> OK, I'm going to try for another 20 seconds. AT ONCE.
00:04:09 <SeGo> Vonlebio, if all 20 seconds don't include singing, it's cheating
00:04:33 <alise> Gregor: filebin.ca
00:04:36 <alise> You know what you must do.
00:04:42 <Gregor> I'll do it if two other people do :P
00:04:48 <SeGo> Gregor, counting me?
00:04:49 <alise> Gregor: What, sing opera?
00:04:56 <alise> I don't even know any opera to sing.
00:04:56 <Gregor> alise: Sing something, record it, upload it.
00:05:05 <alise> Gregor: Tell me how to get Ubuntu to recognise my microphone.
00:05:15 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
00:05:24 <Gregor> alise: Is it in arecord -L?
00:05:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:05:34 <SeGo> Wamanuz, http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/paint_it_black_karaoke.ogg
00:05:39 <SeGo> If you want to go deaf
00:05:47 <Gregor> SeGo: So now you're just being evil then :P
00:05:52 <Vorpal> alise, see link in /msg
00:05:55 <SeGo> Hey, I included a warning
00:06:04 <alise> Gregor: I don't know.
00:06:17 <alise> When I record with the default input, it just has stuff that sounds like background noise.
00:06:21 <alise> Like real background noise.
00:06:26 <alise> As if I recorded it and said nothing.
00:06:33 <Vonlebio> I feel strangely desensitised by now...
00:07:56 <SeGo> Did I at least pronounce Majere correctly?
00:08:08 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:08:14 <SeGo> "It's clear I've gone Majere"
00:08:27 <Vonlebio> SeGo, noöne is going to listen to it *again*.
00:08:48 -!- FIQ has joined.
00:08:55 <SeGo> I've listened to it several times already
00:09:08 <Gregor> SeGo: You're obviously desensitized by being you.
00:09:23 <pikhq> And he may have lost the ability to have taste in music.
00:09:28 <Gregor> <Vonlebio> Now, to kill myself.
00:09:51 <SeGo> Vonlebio, without pausing?
00:10:07 <pikhq> I have been listening to Final Fantasy music instead of this madness.
00:10:50 <pikhq> Except OH GOD I HAVE THE FFX2 SOUNDTRACK
00:11:02 <pikhq> THE PAIN AND AGONY AND WHY IS YUNAS THEME UPBEAT
00:11:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:11:12 <SeGo> pikhq, is my karaoke better??
00:11:24 <Vonlebio> pikhq, listen to SeGo singing. It makes *everything* good by comparison.
00:11:41 -!- SeGo has changed nick to Sgeo.
00:11:54 <Sgeo> Like miraculin!
00:12:14 <pikhq> Vonlebio: I don't think you realise the scope of the tone change here.
00:12:56 <pikhq> Vonlebio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcSPrk2LfNM <- Yuna's Theme from FFX. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjYbJ6u05yQ <- Yuna's Theme from FFX-2.
00:13:36 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-youtube.php <- Gregor's Theme from this summer or something :P
00:13:54 * Vonlebio asked a friend to listen to that. HE THOUGHT IT WAS ME SINGING
00:15:14 * pikhq strongly hates FFX-2. And hates the music more.
00:15:27 <Gregor> I just hate the concept.
00:15:36 <Gregor> Oh, it's FFXI? No, it's FFX ... part two.
00:15:51 <pikhq> Gregor: You played FFX, right?
00:15:57 <Gregor> I haven't played any FF since 8.
00:16:11 <pikhq> Sit down and play FFX now.
00:16:36 <pikhq> Oh, and maybe play FFXII simultaneously; very little interaction required.
00:16:45 <Gregor> I don't have the relevant consoles.
00:16:51 <pikhq> s/consoles/console/
00:16:53 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:17:12 <pikhq> Which I also dislike.
00:17:29 <alise> an Ubuntu-using friend-of-a-friend is trying to prove that he knows more about computers than me
00:17:35 <pikhq> XII sucked ass at gameplay, but had a decent story.
00:17:45 <pikhq> Well. It more *lacked* gameplay.
00:17:54 <pikhq> You programmed the PCs.
00:18:17 <alise> "unless he formatted the whole drive. partitioning the drive into 3 sections, 60gb, 60 gband 32gb (NTFS, ext4 and ext4 respectively), doing that requires about 50% more knowledge than a plain install"
00:18:24 <pikhq> Aaaand then... Let them do all combat automatically.
00:18:33 <alise> yes, that is correct: someone is trying to out-nerd me with (probably graphical) PARTITIONING
00:18:43 <pikhq> And then they made it encourage grinding.
00:18:51 <pikhq> In short: play another game while playing it.
00:19:30 <alise> okay i've told him to come in here to see if he can understand even half a word of it
00:19:34 <alise> so talk technical guys!
00:19:40 <Sgeo> Does PSOX count?
00:19:41 <alise> and i quote some more: "i'm sure he just wants to seem big by using multiple technical words
00:19:49 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
00:20:11 <pikhq> Gregor: Anyways. FFX-2. Let's take a somewhat sad game, and make a spin-off. Wherein the female characters become the *only* playable characters, and they dress like strippers.
00:20:26 <Gregor> pikhq: Do they at least strip?
00:20:36 <pikhq> Gregor: No, but they change clothes in combat.
00:20:52 <alise> apparently he can't even program lol
00:20:53 <Gregor> But is there any nudity in it?
00:21:01 <Sgeo> Oh, I thought Wamanuz was him
00:21:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, and did I mention that they're somehow pop music sensations? Only 5 years after a very very strong religious opposition to ALL TECHNOLOGY ended?
00:21:14 <Vonlebio> Everyone, switch to Turing machines1
00:21:22 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:21:43 <Gregor> Is there a C-to-TM compiler yet?
00:21:44 <Sgeo> I can't even figure out what to do with a damaged HD
00:21:49 <Sgeo> Other than ask in here...
00:21:51 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vonlebio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcSPrk2LfNM <- Yuna's Theme from FFX. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjYbJ6u05yQ <- Yuna's Theme from FFX-2. <-- nice music (at least the first one, haven't got around to the second yet)
00:21:55 <alise> he just dissed double booting
00:21:59 <alise> "no... merey installing 3 os's on a single hard drive hence the partitioning"
00:22:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: FFX had very good music. It's a Final Fantasy game.
00:22:06 -!- sebbu has joined.
00:22:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:22:14 <Sgeo> What does he think dual-booting is?
00:22:14 <alise> double-booting is "a waste of cpu space and electrons" or -- i forget exactly what he said there, but --
00:22:17 <alise> yet triple-booting
00:22:32 <Gregor> With emphasis on "shit"
00:22:33 <alise> "to be honest... intelligence isnt just how much you know... it is how you use it, and he isnt using it sociably, thats for sure"
00:22:53 <Vorpal> <alise> double-booting is "a waste of cpu space and electrons" or -- i forget exactly what he said there, but -- <-- of "CPU space"?
00:23:00 <alise> bear in mind i haven't actually talked to him
00:23:04 <Vonlebio> alise, quick! Play Sgeo singing at him!
00:23:05 <alise> he just insulted my intelligence when someone else brought me up
00:23:08 <alise> and then i retaliated
00:23:22 <alise> Vorpal: i dunno if he said "space"
00:23:24 <Vonlebio> It'll reduce him to a gibbering wreck!
00:23:29 <alise> attacks on my intelligence *really* fucking irritate me.
00:23:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: Heck, you could just do a comparison of the opening CGs to get a full grasp of the astounding difference between the games.
00:24:21 <pikhq> Erm, opening... Cutscenes. That.
00:24:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, okay the second one is shitty for a game.
00:24:50 <Vorpal> at least in the ff genre
00:24:53 <Sgeo> How do we know we're not all delusional?
00:25:02 <Sgeo> And we incorrectly think we are capable and intelligent?
00:25:03 <alise> Vonlebio: he's not coming, i don't think
00:25:06 <Gregor> "Double-booting" is presumably booting one OS on one core, and one OS on the other core ... simultaneously.
00:25:13 <alise> Gregor: er i meant dual-booting
00:25:21 <Gregor> alise: I'm trying to explain his "logic" :P
00:25:22 <Vonlebio> Sgeo, because noöne would delude themselves into thinking that your karaoke exists.
00:26:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, different composers I presume?
00:26:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, I can't imagine that whoever made the first one would sink so low as to do the second one
00:26:56 <pikhq> Yeah, FFX was mostly Nobuou Uematsu. FFX-2 was some J-pop artist.
00:27:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, the second one is a total disaster for a fantasy game
00:28:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvIp4tRIUJI FFX intro, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjldKQx3Kag FFX-2 intro.
00:28:54 * Sgeo wonders if his singing could be used as a WMD
00:29:20 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|SomeonesAtM.
00:29:33 <pikhq> FFX-2 *starts with a fucking pop concert*.
00:29:53 -!- Sgeo|SomeonesAtM has changed nick to Sgeo.
00:30:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about the ffx game after that?
00:30:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: What FFX game after FFX-2?
00:30:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh? there isn't one?
00:30:49 <pikhq> After that abortion of a game?
00:30:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, did they abort it?
00:31:18 <pikhq> No, I'm using "abortion" as an insult, and a suggestion that they should have aborted it.
00:31:35 <pikhq> Or should do so post-term. With a sledgehammer.
00:33:28 <pikhq> And whoever's responsible for the dressphere system should be executed.
00:34:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, the FFX-2 intro is unwatchable
00:34:35 <pikhq> Sgeo: It has a clothing-based combat system. Honest-to-God.
00:35:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, what does that even mean?
00:35:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: You change clothing to change jobs.
00:35:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, I want that GPU used for FFX2 though. That is some realistic graphics.
00:36:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, and from what I can remember of the final fantasy series that pop concert is just _competely_ anachronistic
00:41:11 <alise> he's just being completely normal now he's actually face to face with me
00:41:25 <alise> retard + loss of indirection = nice person
00:43:01 <alise> Vorpal: the aforementioned idiot
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00:43:12 <alise> <alise> "unless he formatted the whole drive. partitioning the drive into 3 sections, 60gb, 60 gband 32gb (NTFS, ext4 and ext4 respectively), doing that requires about 50% more knowledge than a plain install"
00:43:13 <alise> <alise> yes, that is correct: someone is trying to out-nerd me with (probably graphical) PARTITIONING
00:43:14 <Vorpal> alise, with the CPU area?
00:43:16 <alise> <alise> and i quote some more: "i'm sure he just wants to seem big by using multiple technical words
00:43:19 <alise> <alise> apparently he can't even program lol
00:43:25 <alise> <alise> he just dissed double booting
00:43:26 <alise> <alise> "no... merey installing 3 os's on a single hard drive hence the partitioning"
00:43:32 <alise> <alise> double-booting is "a waste of cpu space and electrons" or -- i forget exactly what he said there, but --
00:43:34 <alise> <alise> yet triple-booting
00:43:34 <alise> <alise> IS THE SHIT
00:43:36 <alise> <alise> "to be honest... intelligence isnt just how much you know... it is how you use it, and he isnt using it sociably, thats for sure"
00:44:17 <Vorpal> alise, what the fuck is "gband"
00:46:22 <alise> of course all of this is because i'm ~zomg young~
00:46:33 <alise> if i was 25 he would have just shut up and accepted it
00:46:38 <alise> but 15 year olds are INHERENTLY LESS INTELLIGENT :)
00:51:48 <Vorpal> alise, and how old is he?
00:52:04 <Vorpal> alise, also you said face to face? You meant him in RL?
00:52:15 <alise> face to face as in not through the friend of whom he is a friend
00:52:29 <alise> i dunno how old he is, only a few years older than me at most
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01:00:23 <Vorpal> alise, that dell btw, built in speakers are way better than that of my thinkpad. However, the headphone jack is *noisy*
01:00:36 <Vorpal> for headphones my laptop beats it
01:00:55 <Vorpal> of course my desktop with SB Live 5.1 beats both easily
01:01:26 <Vorpal> oh and mute remove the noise
01:04:27 <Vorpal> oh I see headphones are at 100
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01:09:50 <Sgeo> alise, why haven't you resumed reading FS?
01:10:02 <Sgeo> Or résuméd it, for that matter?
01:11:06 <quintopia> alise, why haven't you accepted Cthulhu as your Lord and God Almighty?
01:13:28 <alise> quintopia: because IPU
01:16:22 <Sgeo> I dropped IPU for FSM
01:16:31 <Sgeo> FSM does not have a contradiction inherent in the name itself
01:16:47 <Sgeo> Just like there is no contradiction inherent in the letters G o d
01:17:01 <Vorpal> alise, invisible pink what?
01:17:15 <alise> <Sgeo> I dropped IPU for FSM
01:17:15 <alise> <Sgeo> FSM does not have a contradiction inherent in the name itself
01:17:15 <alise> <Sgeo> Just like there is no contradiction inherent in the letters G o d
01:17:18 <alise> stupidest fucking rationale ever
01:17:23 <alise> the whole point of these is to be ridiculous
01:17:38 <alise> and the FSM is irritating, because its inventor seems to think he's the first to think of such a wacky idea, a fake god!
01:17:48 <Sgeo> ...he does? o.O
01:18:17 <alise> well, he seemed to be pleased with himself about it in the first letter.
01:18:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: Actually, a pop concert merely existing isn't anachronistic for the *series*.
01:18:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: Just that game.
01:19:13 <pikhq> Actually, more like "that point in the timeline of the game".
01:19:25 * Vorpal secretly replaces alise's IRC client next time he goes to sleep with MS Comic Chat, locked in comic mode
01:19:27 <pikhq> Would have not been an abuse of the timeline at the start of FFX's storyline.
01:19:32 <pikhq> Just an abuse of all taste.
01:20:16 <pikhq> I'm just going to say that FFX also had, near the very start, some heavy metal. And it fit.
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01:20:57 <quintopia> I worship the invisible pink flying spaghetti goddess of the Old Ones, Discordia!
01:20:58 <Sgeo> Dear Firefox: When I click a tab, I do _not_ intend to close it
01:20:59 <pikhq> (oh, and the very end. It was also boss music. :D)
01:21:52 <quintopia> Sgeo: sounds like a bug. My copy doesn't put the close buttons on inactive tabs.
01:22:25 <Sgeo> Neither does mine
01:22:33 <Sgeo> It just thinks I clicked to close for some reason
01:22:54 <Sgeo> I'm going to attempt to watch some SGU
01:23:16 <Sgeo> Is there a way to see what packages are taking up lots of disk space?
01:23:47 <Sgeo> Ubuntu 10.04 LTS
01:23:48 <Vorpal> you could list all packages with size presumably
01:23:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: In fact, here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GjvRAJaEc0
01:24:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, don't have any ubuntu system turned on atm, but should be possible with dpkg or such
01:25:07 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: In fact, here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GjvRAJaEc0 <-- which game?
01:25:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, was that the one with the good themes?
01:25:58 <pikhq> And yes, that *is* Nobuo Uematsu doing metal.
01:26:01 <quintopia> the size of the archive should correlate to the unpacked size
01:26:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, a lot higher 3D quality than the intro of it?
01:26:26 <pikhq> The intro was done by the PS2 hardware; this is pre-rendered.
01:26:34 <pikhq> Aaaand the very start of the plot.
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01:27:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: BTW, you should totally play this game. It is by far my favorite Final Fantasy game.
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01:27:48 * Sgeo goes to watch some SGU
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01:28:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, I doubt I have the hardware for it
01:28:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, and: spoony bard. You can't get better than that
01:28:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm not going to get a PS2
01:28:46 <pikhq> There's a lot of good JRPGs for the PS2.
01:28:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, besides I doubt it would be easy to find one around here
01:28:55 <alise> what's wrong with ps2s
01:29:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Should be.
01:29:02 <alise> besides you could emulate (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha no)
01:29:14 <pikhq> Worst case scenario, buy one new.
01:29:24 <Vorpal> alise, I suspect it would be non-trivial to emulate
01:29:24 <alise> a new ps2 costs like 3p :P
01:29:31 <alise> Vorpal: near-impossible with current hardware
01:29:36 <alise> what with that fancy emotion engine crap
01:29:37 <pikhq> alise: It's $99 for literally brand-new.
01:29:44 <Vorpal> alise, emotion engine?
01:29:53 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_Engine
01:29:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: The PS2 had an absurd number of CPUs.
01:31:22 <pikhq> Main CPU, two vector CPUs, a general-purpose GPU, two audio CPUs, and an IO CPU (the Playstation I CPU).
01:31:38 <pikhq> Yes, to emulate a PS2 you need to emulate a PS1.
01:32:15 <pikhq> But, yeah. Sony is still manufacturing them.
01:32:19 <Vorpal> alise, (after reading link): how boring. For a split second after you said "emotion engine" I thought it was a CPU dedicated to calculating facial expressions or something XD
01:32:32 <alise> no it is the cpu that lets the computer feel
01:32:34 <pikhq> And have no plans to stop.
01:33:13 <pikhq> 10 years and counting.
01:33:34 <Vorpal> "Combined, the two channels of DRDRAM have a maximum theoretical bandwidth of 3.2 GB/s, about 33% more bandwidth than the internal data bus."
01:33:40 <Vorpal> what is the point of THAT
01:34:35 <pikhq> Sony is on record as saying they will continue making the PS2 until it stops selling. Dear me.
01:34:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, why does it still sell? With the PS3 around I mean
01:35:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: It has pretty most of the good games made from 2000 to, say, 2008.
01:35:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: And there are still games being made for it...
01:36:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, invalid: you must correct the first sed expression using the second. And now you have to sed your second expression to fix the first instead :P
01:36:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: And it *outsold the PS3* until 2009.
01:36:41 <pikhq> Hell, it was outselling the Wii for quite a while.
01:41:12 <pikhq> The PS2: it prints money ™.
01:46:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: So, yeah. Get yous a PS2.
01:47:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: But you must play FFX. And FFXII. And Persona 3. Absolutely positively must.
01:48:00 <pikhq> Now go make the best-selling console of all time sell a bit better!
01:48:46 <alise> <Vorpal> pikhq, why does it still sell? With the PS3 around I mean
01:48:50 <alise> PS3 doesn't support PS1 games
01:49:05 <alise> oh yeah they dropped that recently didn't they
01:49:13 <pikhq> alise: It still plays PS1 games.
01:49:19 <pikhq> That was software emulation from day 1.
01:49:24 <alise> it plays PS1 but not PS2? :D
01:49:39 <pikhq> They actually sell PS1 games on PSN.
01:49:51 <pikhq> The *PSP* can play PS1 games as well.
01:50:20 <pikhq> My PS3 still has the PS2 hardware in it.
01:50:40 <pikhq> (made a point of getting a used one)
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01:58:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, wrt pre-rendered cutscene:
01:58:37 <Vorpal> thanks for the warning to avoid that game
01:58:46 <Vorpal> I hate pre-rendered cut scenes
01:59:04 <Vorpal> the difference in quality is often jarring
01:59:24 <Vorpal> and really breaks suspension of disbelief
01:59:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: Then you hate any game newer than '95.
02:00:00 <Vorpal> if there is one thing that I can't stand in games it is pre-rendered high quality cut scenes, when the actual game has lower image quality
02:00:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm what about n64, when was that?
02:01:03 <pikhq> Oh, right, the N64 didn't have the cartridge space for pre-rendered cut scenes.
02:01:05 <Vorpal> zelda oot lacks pre-rendered cut scenes
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02:01:38 <pikhq> Almost all PS1, PS2, PS3, Gamecube, Wii, Xbox, and Xbox 360 games have pre-rendered cutscenes.
02:01:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about PC games?
02:02:03 <quintopia> Saints Row didn't have them, or at least, they were no higher quality than the game engine provided
02:02:09 <quintopia> but i'm pretty sure they were scripted
02:02:19 <quintopia> and i'm sure ghost recon's cutscenes were just scripted
02:02:42 <pikhq> True; PC games can also opt for scripting cutscenes and have absolutely steller graphics. Better GPUs in general, and a need to deal with varying resolutions.
02:02:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: What would you think of a game that had *animated* cutscenes?
02:03:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, what do you mean? As in not a static image?
02:03:20 <Vorpal> I would prefer non-static image yes
02:03:29 <pikhq> As in an actual drawn animation.
02:03:50 <alise> THE NEVERHOOD WAS ENTIRELY CLAYMATION
02:03:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, depends on what the rest of the game looks like
02:03:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, if 3D? then fuck it
02:04:04 <alise> ALL THE ANIMATIONS, ALL THE BACKGROUNDS, ALL THE CHARACTERS
02:04:09 <alise> ALL THE FUCKING GAME MENUS
02:04:11 <alise> (YES, ALL OF THEM)
02:04:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: You should play Persona 3.
02:04:30 <pikhq> It is the best JRPG.
02:04:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, as I said, the cut scenes *must* look like the rest of the game
02:04:54 <alise> The Neverhood is the best JRPG, the best FPS, the best RTS, the best casual game, the best EVERYTHING
02:04:56 <Vorpal> otherwise I will just abort the game at the first cut scene
02:05:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: Stop it, you are denying yourself excellent games.
02:05:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: "The game *must* be made with sprites no better than what the SNES had"
02:05:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, I tried and I found that it is so extremely jarring it just puts me off it
02:05:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: "The game *must* have sequenced graphics"
02:05:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is completely different
02:05:47 <pikhq> Vorpal: "The game *must* use an NES controller"
02:05:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm asking for consistency
02:05:57 <Vorpal> not for limiting to SNES
02:06:10 <Vorpal> if the game itself has excellent graphics then so can the cut scenes
02:06:16 <Vorpal> it just has to be consistent
02:06:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, your attacks were just absurd :P
02:07:06 <pikhq> It's hard not to be when you're being absurd.
02:07:14 <pikhq> "I HATE GOOD-LOOKING CUTSCENES"
02:07:21 <pikhq> Though I will grant sometimes it's jarring
02:07:25 <pikhq> (looking at *you*, FF7)
02:07:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, no I don't. I hate cutscenes of _different quality_ than the parts of the game that isn't cut scenes
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02:07:55 <Vorpal> which is very different from hating good quality cut scenes
02:08:21 * Sgeo growls at YouTube
02:08:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzHpCOPsVbo Cutscene (intro, Persona 3), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Drs140-CIf8 Gameplay (no spoilers)
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02:09:51 <pikhq> ... You know what? You are not allowed to have opinions about games, you are a luddite.
02:10:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, what genre is it?
02:10:15 <pikhq> Here's a stick and string.
02:10:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: The game? JRPG.
02:10:33 <pikhq> (with dating sim elements. It works. Somehow.)
02:10:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, the actual in game music is better
02:10:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, it was just the intro music that I found rather bad
02:11:27 <pikhq> Okay, then we have inconsistent opinions on Shouji Meguro. :P
02:12:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, though the battle music, while technically good is not really my cup of tea (to use a British idiom)
02:12:37 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkh-ZehNibg And this?
02:13:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, starts out good at least
02:13:47 <Vorpal> hm vocals, opera style?
02:14:04 <pikhq> Yes. Because Shōji Meguro is stranger to no genre.
02:14:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, technically good, but I personally dislike vocals in opera style
02:15:08 <pikhq> You appear to have restricted tastes.
02:15:19 <pikhq> What *do* you like?
02:15:39 <Sgeo> Vorpal likes my singing
02:16:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: Okay, I'm sorry. He apparently has a burnt out musical-taste lobe.
02:16:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, remove the vocals (well that wouldn't work, replace it with some instrument, maybe violins?) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkh-ZehNibg would be awesome (it is already very good)
02:16:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't think I said I liked Sgeo singing?
02:17:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, example of a game where I liked all music: zelda oot
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02:17:15 <pikhq> You... Have astoundingly narrow tastes.
02:17:20 <Sgeo> Vorpal, do you like the Aquaria music?
02:17:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, it was just an example
02:17:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I have no clue what that is, so no idea
02:17:52 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJEpxPWJAh8
02:18:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm... I like Gregor's music too :)
02:18:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqZpngl1LwI And this? (random remake on the soundtrack album, not in the game)
02:19:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm futurama theme is also nice btw.
02:19:33 <pikhq> Still, you are disallowed from playing JRPGs. You hate the freaking theme of the best series bar none. :P
02:19:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, I like that final fantasy I played on SNES
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02:20:05 <Vorpal> not the spoony bard one
02:20:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, one with floating continent or such?
02:20:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, whatever number that one had
02:21:04 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJEpxPWJAh8 <-- rather restful. Game music? Which genre?
02:21:19 <alise> <Vorpal> otherwise I will just abort the game at the first cut scene ;; lol
02:21:20 <Sgeo> Yes, game music.
02:21:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, I like NWN1 music too btw.
02:21:37 <Vorpal> and wesnoth has awesome music
02:21:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: I swear, I am going to fly over there and force you to play some games some day.
02:21:47 <Sgeo> Not sure what genre, but I've heard Aquaria described as something like Metroid and.. Castlevania? I haven't played those
02:22:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFIOuQjgMYY more spirited
02:22:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway, secret of mana had mostly good music too
02:23:00 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqZpngl1LwI And this? (random remake on the soundtrack album, not in the game) <-- starts out very nice, a bit jazzy
02:23:34 <Vorpal> well, quite far from jazz, at least traditional jazz... Still very good
02:24:02 <Vorpal> this is the last one before I go to sleep
02:24:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, will queue that one for tomorrow
02:25:41 <alise> Vorpal: are you ever going to go to fucking bed like you said three times?
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02:26:22 <Vorpal> alise, and I invoke the Swedish idiom "tredje gången gilt" (translation left as exercise to the reader.
02:28:28 <alise> nobody gives a shit about you enough to translate what you say
02:35:17 <Sgeo> alise, don't turn into Vorpal please
02:35:25 <Sgeo> (Yes, I know it's really Vorpal turning into you)
02:35:49 <Sgeo> When was the last time I insulted someone in this channel?
02:39:30 <Sgeo> I assume you're just making it up, unless you link to logfile
02:40:20 <alise> you haven't been here 5 years
02:41:43 <Sgeo> I remember discussing when I first came in
02:41:55 <Sgeo> I mean, seeing the logs recently
02:42:00 <Sgeo> I was asking about PESOIX
02:42:11 <Sgeo> Premonition of evil things to come
02:44:32 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP7nBFk1C20&NR=1
02:44:38 <Sgeo> I love the Aquaria soundtrack
02:51:33 <Sgeo> http://www.project10tothe100.com/ideas.html
02:51:50 <Sgeo> An idea I had a very long time ago would fall under "Create real-world issue reporting system"
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03:31:41 * Sgeo has discovered a new virtual world
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04:20:28 <Sgeo> alise, when you see this: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010529
04:22:14 <pikhq> Hey, Userfriendly. A webcomic that follows newspaper comic conventions!
04:22:24 <pikhq> (*especially* the "no art change ever" one)
04:24:08 <alise> pikhq: And the "not being funny" one
04:24:39 <quintopia> thank god the far side never followed those conventions
04:25:29 <pikhq> Nor did Calvin & Hobbes.
04:26:24 <alise> garfield is so post-modern man
04:26:28 <pikhq> Dear God Garfield actually had art change, didn't it.
04:26:45 <alise> Garfield is awesome because you know that it's actually taking place inside an empty house while Garfield is starving to death and hallucinating because of it.
04:26:50 <alise> Source: The Halloween sequence.
04:26:59 <alise> Sure, Jim Davies SAYS it's not canon... but we know the truth.
04:27:04 <pikhq> Yes, that sequence is awesome.
04:27:30 <quintopia> well, Garfield may have changed art once, but it fits perfectly the "not being funny" convention
04:28:45 <Sgeo> Oh wait, alise is awake for some unfathomable reason
04:28:57 <alise> Shut the hell up about when I'm awake.
04:30:05 <pikhq> quintopia: It had art evolution, actually.
04:30:26 <Sgeo> Illiad never made episode 2
04:31:05 <pikhq> quintopia: http://www.garfield.com/comics/vault.html?yr=1989&addr=891023 Also, you must read this.
04:32:32 <quintopia> the stupid flash won't work for me :/
04:34:22 <Sgeo> http://www.userfriendly.org/animation/episode1.html
04:34:27 <Sgeo> I actually liked this when I was a kid
04:35:44 <pikhq> The problem with Userfriendly is simple: it is bland as hell.
04:36:07 <pikhq> Unfortunately, this is the normal expectation of comics.
04:40:48 <quintopia> PHD tends to be pretty good on that front though.
04:44:13 <pikhq> SMBC's quite good.
04:44:42 <pikhq> Cyanide & Happiness is good sometimes, though it does dead baby humor so much that it actually *becomes* mundane somehow. :P
04:45:48 <pikhq> Dinosaur Comics is just awesomeness in comic form.
04:46:05 <pikhq> And Dr. McNinja is awesomeness².
04:49:31 <alise> Dinosaur Comics > everything
04:49:44 <alise> pikhq: pictures for sad children
04:49:50 <alise> is the only one that can even compete with dinosaur comics
04:51:38 <pikhq> alise: Dr. McNinja is more about being the epitomy of epicness to the exclusion of all else. I don't think you can really compare it with comedic comics, because, uh. It's about having crowning moments of awesome.
04:51:45 <pikhq> Which it is very good at.
04:54:07 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3G5IXn0K7A why does this exist? I don't dislike it or anything, but who would bother?
04:54:40 <Sgeo> [Warning: ancient Internet meme]
04:54:51 <alise> oh yeah they remade it like 50 times
04:54:55 <alise> to cash in on the popularity
04:55:18 <Sgeo> How did they "cash in" though?
04:55:20 <pikhq> I refuse to click because I am listening to good music ATM.
04:55:33 <Sgeo> Hampster dance
04:55:45 <pikhq> Okay, kill it with fire the meme. Got it.
04:55:55 <alise> it is catchy though
04:55:59 <alise> Sgeo: released as a single
04:56:29 <Sgeo> I first heard it (at least a section of it) in a weird way
04:56:50 <Sgeo> http://www.4chan.org/flash/?file=comeback4chan.swf&title=Come+Back+4chan
04:56:53 <Sgeo> (SFW, I _think_)
04:57:06 <alise> Black and White makes the low HP battle music *not horrible*.
04:57:07 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp0TcjM7wUM
04:58:08 * Sgeo read about Pokemon as a kid. And that's it
04:58:19 <Sgeo> Had a book that listed all of them, think I had a story
04:58:20 <alise> Just ... read about it?
04:58:44 <Sgeo> I might have played Pokemon Snap at a friend's house once, and .. the thing with the arena at camp
05:00:42 <pikhq> You. Emulator. Pokémon. Now.
05:01:05 <pikhq> (or, if you prefer: hǫke'to monnsutâsù)
05:01:41 <Sgeo> I remember reading a book that had a section for parents. It said something like "You endured a talking purple dinosaur, you can endure this"
05:02:28 <pikhq> Why are you wasting time when you could be playing the game?
05:02:50 <Sgeo> I remember friends at my house when I was showing off Macromedia Shockwave thingy that I just learned about and I asked them for something for me to do. They had me have "Mew" scroll across the screen, iirc
05:03:09 <Sgeo> I still do not know why it was on my computer
05:03:27 <Sgeo> If I could find the tutorial animations again, that would be amazing
05:03:50 <Sgeo> I also had a book. I think the book came after me finding that, not sure
05:03:54 <pikhq> alise: My god they made the low HP battle music sound good.
05:03:58 <Sgeo> Also, after I eat, I need to go to sleep
05:04:22 <alise> pikhq: Also: "No Gen I-IV Pokemon pre-national dex. Which means no more Zubats, Tentacools and Geodudes."
05:04:29 <alise> [[Fake Longevity: At long last AVERTED, battles are extremely sped up compared to the previous games, and without animations, it's essentially as fast as you can push the buttons.
05:04:29 <alise> And the task of catching all of the Pokemon is mitigated A LOT by the Dream World having essentially every Pokemon available to find. Some require codes of course, but still!]]
05:04:33 <alise> They took Pokemon and removed all the shitty parts!
05:04:39 <alise> Now let's see how they made the game last longer than three seconds!
05:04:49 <alise> pikhq: They'll add more bats, just differently-named and different looking ones :P
05:05:01 <alise> pikhq: You should play it.
05:05:09 <alise> I assume the Japanese will pose no trouble for you.
05:05:19 <Sgeo> How much space would an emulator and the game take up?
05:05:21 <pikhq> alise: I totally will.
05:05:30 <Sgeo> I'm kind of on a low-space budget right now, for obvious reasons
05:05:34 <Sgeo> I think I have 50 left
05:05:52 <alise> pikhq: aren't DS cartridges like
05:06:17 <alise> Cards currently range from 64 megabits to 4 gigabits (8–512 MiB) in size (although the maximum capacity is unknown).
05:06:36 <alise> Sgeo: 8 to 512 megabytes (as you know them)
05:06:39 <pikhq> alise: For a Gameboy cart?
05:06:40 <alise> also, delete some fucking shit
05:06:49 <Sgeo> I need Factor.
05:06:50 <alise> pikhq: The last generation (remake) was DS, too :P
05:06:52 <Sgeo> I need Second Life.
05:07:00 <alise> pikhq: Protip: Gameboys aren't made any more
05:07:23 <alise> wait, the last one wasn't a remake either. XD
05:07:25 <pikhq> alise: Also: Pokemon Red & Blue is for the Gameboy biznitch. :P
05:07:30 <alise> pikhq: What do you mean "Emulator"?
05:07:34 <Sgeo> Wow, Factor is huge
05:07:45 <alise> Pokemon Black and White, like Diamond, Pearl and Platinum, are *DS* games.
05:07:58 <pikhq> Yes, but Red & Blue is *Gameboy*.
05:08:06 <Sgeo> I may have a slightly warped understanding of "huge"
05:08:14 <alise> pikhq: I was talking about playing Black & White, which have removed the suck.
05:08:24 <alise> They aren't out in English yet, you see.
05:08:29 <Sgeo> What was Gold?
05:08:37 <Sgeo> Assuming I'm not hallucinating that?
05:08:49 <pikhq> Gold & Silver were the first sequel.
05:08:52 <Sgeo> And I mean, besides me
05:09:06 <Sgeo> Huh? Two games to a generation? Red and blue aren't separate?
05:09:29 <alise> yes, two games to a generation
05:09:46 <alise> pikhq: You can be the first person to start with a Pokemon *other* than Tsutarja!
05:10:08 <pikhq> Well, there was often a 0.5 gen game.
05:10:12 <Sgeo> How much of your Pokemon love is due to nostalgia?
05:10:13 <pikhq> (Yellow, Crystal, etc.)
05:10:24 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's a reasonable JRPG, actually.
05:10:31 <alise> i didn't play a pokemon game before Sapphire
05:10:35 <pikhq> Bit light on the plot, but not bad mechanically.
05:10:40 <alise> or was it someone else's copy of ruby, eh
05:10:44 <alise> they are excellent
05:10:48 <alise> although irritating
05:10:57 <alise> black & white speeding up battles will make it nicer
05:11:19 <pikhq> Though for me nostalgia definitely kicks in. It was my first JRPG. :P
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05:11:38 <alise> pikhq: third games are pretty much inevitable now
05:11:46 <alise> Red, Green, Blue, and Yellow • Gold, Silver, and Crystal • Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald • Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum • Black and White
05:11:52 <alise> one of these things is not yet like the others
05:12:27 <alise> FireRed and LeafGreen • HeartGold and SoulSilver ;; neither of these count :P
05:12:49 <Sgeo> What's the difference between Red and Blue?
05:13:18 <alise> dunno but for sapphire/ruby it's
05:13:30 <alise> the name of the bad guys, plot elements, the colour of the box art, and one pokemon unique to each
05:13:35 <alise> you can only get both by trading
05:13:57 <pikhq> *Unless* you're in Japan, in which case Blue was the bug-fix rerelease with a different map setup and art, which all the foreign releases were based on.
05:14:11 <pikhq> alise: For the first gen, there were a *lot* of Pokemon unique to each.
05:14:17 <pikhq> And no other differences.
05:14:25 <pikhq> It was just the encounter tables.
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05:16:01 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and the Japanese versions of the games also had Mew attainable without bugs.
05:16:13 <pikhq> (motherfucking bad export for you)
05:18:30 <Gregor> I have Windows NT MIPS running :)
05:18:45 <zzo38> I have heard about the new Pokemon Black/White, and that one change is that the pokemon numbers now start at zero.
05:18:59 <pikhq> zzo38: And there's 150 Pokemon.
05:19:11 <pikhq> For the first time in, oh, 14 years.
05:19:34 <zzo38> (They don't start at one anymore, although number 1 is still the grass starter, not number 0)
05:20:19 <zzo38> What I want to see in a pokemon game is another mode which adds limitations and removes some features and changes some, to make a bit different kind of game.
05:21:18 <zzo38> (Another thing I have heard about the new game is that there is now a Flying/Null type)
05:22:35 <pikhq> It still amazes me how Mew was put into Pokemon.
05:23:16 <pikhq> A programmer snuck it in and didn't tell anyone until after the game came out.
05:24:13 <zzo38> pikhq: That is how? I didn't know that.
05:28:36 <Gregor> Visual C++ 2.0 for MIPS
05:28:59 <Sgeo> WARNIGN: I AM TIRED
05:29:08 <Sgeo> Along with all consequences of Sgeoan tiredness
05:33:38 <pikhq> zzo38: Couple weeks before they shipped the code out to be masked onto ROMs.
05:35:37 <zzo38> pikhq: OK. Thanks for telling me that
05:36:09 <Sgeo> You mean Mew wasn't an official promo thingy?
05:36:30 <Gregor> I have created ... A BINARY!
05:37:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: Nope, it was a complete and utter surprise to Nintendo.
05:37:39 <Sgeo> According to Wikipedia, it helped make Pokemon a success
05:37:40 <pikhq> They took the code for actually getting it *without* a promotion out of the out-of-Japan release, though.
05:37:57 <pikhq> (on the Japanese version, catching all Pokemon gave you a Mew)
05:41:24 <Sgeo> Mewtwo's existence was deliberate?
05:41:40 <Sgeo> And so there was a hypothetical "Mew", just not expected to be programmed in?
05:42:10 <pikhq> Mewtwo was in a bonus dungeon.
05:42:40 <pikhq> (beat the game, go to Cerulean Cave, get you a Mewtwo. Hope you held on to that Masterball!)
05:42:49 <Sgeo> Sorry, I'm not interested in Ubuntu
05:43:25 <pikhq> Yeah, but your mom is. All night long.
05:44:24 <Sgeo> You know what, I don't care. I don't really take those jokes personally
05:45:36 <Gregor> People take those jokes personally?
05:45:41 <Gregor> The concept is absurd.
05:45:59 <pikhq> I didn't know it was possible to take them personally.
05:46:04 <Sgeo> I didn't mean it like that
05:46:09 <Sgeo> As in, me getting offended
05:46:31 <pikhq> ... I didn't know it was even meant to be all that offensive.
05:47:03 <pikhq> The very premise is too absurd.
05:47:10 <pikhq> Much like your mother.
05:47:42 <Sgeo> My mother died in 2004
05:48:58 <Sgeo> I think basing people's unwillingness to make "Your mother" jokes on alise's reaction may have been a mistake
05:48:58 <pikhq> I don't mean to be rude or anything, but... It's a freaking "your mom" joke. It's not a slight against your mother, it's hardly even a reference to her, it's just a mildly cliché form of joke.
05:49:17 <Sgeo> pikhq, but I'm used to alise avoiding all mention of such jokes, is all
05:50:03 <Sgeo> alise, when you read this: I don't care anymore, I won't get offended
05:51:32 <Gregor> It is entirely a cliché.
05:51:46 <Gregor> It's such a cliché it has transcended cliché. It is a metacliché.
05:52:36 <Sgeo> Typing those accents is mildly annoying for me due to the missing key
05:53:19 <pikhq> Gregor: I have attained a habit of understating things from Japanese.
05:53:25 <Sgeo> Yes, but accents require the compose key..
05:54:11 <Sgeo> Is there a list of compose key shenanigans somewhere?
05:54:19 <Sgeo> Compose-<-3 is awesome!
05:54:30 <quintopia> they are all so obvious you shouldn't need it
05:54:47 <Sgeo> quintopia, if I don't realise that a heart can be done with compose key, I wouldn't even think to try it
05:55:13 <Sgeo> compose-p-i is not pi
05:55:49 <Sgeo> Encyclopædia Dramætica
05:56:29 <Sgeo> I just want the list
05:57:38 <Sgeo> Tired insanity ©Sgeo
05:58:27 <quintopia> commas put tails on things to get french letter
05:58:45 <Sgeo> Who uses ¢ these days?
05:59:21 <pikhq> Use it to repla¢e c.
05:59:50 <Sgeo> FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuu
06:00:39 <Sgeo> The table that Wikipedia has doens't mention ♥
06:02:59 <Sgeo> I'm a ♮ at this
06:03:03 <zzo38> There are uses of TeX trigraphs in CWEB programs, for example, if you want a literal "|" in the TeX output, if you want a literal "*/" in the TeX output, or if you want a space at the beginning of a line.
06:03:59 <Sgeo> I don't see ♥ on this list
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06:04:29 -!- augur has joined.
06:04:45 <zzo38> Or, if you want to stop CWEB from complaining about unmatched braces in comments
06:04:55 <quintopia> just like you should use the superscripted 4-0 you printed above
06:05:35 <quintopia> because this is IRC dammit, and we have laws!
06:06:28 <zzo38> IRC works best with plain ASCII, although UTF-8 and things like that can be used, too, if all relevant clients are configured correctly.
06:07:09 <zzo38> (I have PuTTY configured to use UTF-8, so anything that isn't valid UTF-8 will print as a block)
06:07:43 <zzo38> And it is possible to change what characters can be entered by the compose key.
06:08:42 <pikhq> quintopia: I hereby ban non-Unicode.
06:09:25 <pikhq> I demand þat þe Unicode be uſèd!
06:09:42 <pikhq> Are þere any who would conteſt þis?
06:11:15 <quintopia> the convention is so that people on mobile clients and such that don't support unicode aren't constantly bitching about funky gibberish in their screen
06:11:31 <zzo38> Yes, for one thing my IRC client does not have capability to send unicode (although it can receive unicode OK).
06:11:55 <quintopia> in another channel, there is a bot that lets you set a catchphrase that displays when you enter, and i set mine to a plain old message, but every letter was changed to its unicode equivalent
06:12:27 <quintopia> and people on mobile clients bitched and moaned because it translated to gibberish that was twice as long and filled up their screens so they couldn't read what was actually happening in the channel
06:12:55 <quintopia> i got very unpopular for a while there
06:13:05 <zzo38> Plain old message? What unicode equivalent?
06:13:40 <quintopia> It said something like "Whogivesafuckaboutan encoding?"
06:13:55 <quintopia> But all of those characters were the unicode versions
06:14:07 <Gregor> Shockingly, Visual C++ 2.0 MIPS doesn't have getopt.
06:14:10 <pikhq> quintopia: Þat's bullſhit. If you can't do Unicode in þis day and age, you do not deſerve Internet access.
06:14:19 <quintopia> I don't know how to generate them here, but on my old OS, shift+space switched to an all-unicode input mode
06:14:44 <pikhq> I suppoſe next you'll be saying we should mandate þat we uſe only HTML 1?
06:14:48 <quintopia> pikhq: some mobile devices just don't HAVE unicode-supporting clients yet
06:14:58 <quintopia> primarily because the devices themselves don't natively support unicode
06:15:04 <pikhq> And þoſe devices are þus BROKEN
06:15:18 <zzo38> ASCII codes are the same in UTF-8, unless overlong encodings are used.
06:15:25 <quintopia> no, because everyone doesn't have to see when people bitch about webpages not displaying
06:15:34 <zzo38> pikhq: You shouldn't use any HTML on IRC
06:15:37 <pikhq> I repeat: not supporting UTF-8 is brain damage of the worst kind.
06:15:39 <zzo38> It doesn't matter HTML 1 or not
06:15:42 <pikhq> zzo38: No, I mean *on the web*.
06:16:01 <quintopia> yes, the devices are broken pikhq, but people have them nonetheless
06:16:04 <pikhq> zzo38: HTML 1 *on the web*. Because some moron might be using an ooold browser.
06:16:12 <pikhq> quintopia: I care not.
06:16:12 <quintopia> and those are the people we have to deal with when they whine about it
06:16:16 <zzo38> pikhq: O, sorry. If you want efficiently and full compatible, use plain text, don't use HTML at all if HTML is not necessary.
06:16:31 <quintopia> sticking to ISO 8859-1 isn't all that hard to do
06:16:32 <pikhq> zzo38: Oh, right, it's you. With the Gopher server. :P
06:16:34 <zzo38> If it is necessary, use HTML, use whatever tags are important, and any tags the browser does not understand will be ignored.
06:16:49 <pikhq> quintopia: この言語はISO 8859-1にないぜ！
06:17:26 <pikhq> quintopia: Also, *yes it is*. You realise that ISO 8859-1 is actually hardly ever used?
06:17:28 <quintopia> take that to your silly asian irc server
06:17:40 <pikhq> quintopia: Instead what is used is a Microsoft code page that is *similar*.
06:17:52 <pikhq> But is always advertised as ISO 8859-1.
06:18:09 <pikhq> I repeat: non-Unicode is brain damage of the worst kinda and it should be murdered.
06:18:20 <pikhq> Not merely stopped, MURDERED IN A COLD ALLEY.
06:18:37 <quintopia> how should i know what is actually being used? i just tell IRC to only transmit 8859-1. if it fucks that up, i really don't care, because it works for all the characters i use on a regular basis
06:19:22 <quintopia> i already told you i agreed with you on that front
06:19:45 <zzo38> My program utfeight.tex supports overlong encodings and calls them valid. You might use them to enter unicode characters that are equivalent of ASCII codes but you don't want them to be used as those TeX commands
06:19:48 <quintopia> i'm just explaining why that convention came into existence
06:20:04 <pikhq> The convention on Freenode *is* to use UTF-8, BTW.
06:20:34 <zzo38> The convention on my IRC server is to use plain ASCII, although you can use UTF-8 if you want.
06:20:56 <pikhq> Also: I care not for conventions that exist only to support retarded software that's decades out of date.
06:21:24 <pikhq> And I *hate* having to deal with the encoding game for Japanese.
06:21:42 <pikhq> (attitudes like YOURS are responsible for there being 4 encodings in common use for Japanese and OH GOD MAKE IT STOP)
06:22:17 <quintopia> you don't even know what my attitude is
06:22:19 <pikhq> "It works just fine so let's not change it"
06:22:48 <pikhq> This is why typical Japanese IRC uses a character encoding designed for being compatible with a DOS encoding that supported ASCII + half-width katakana.
06:22:55 <quintopia> yeah, i never said "it works just fine"
06:23:19 <pikhq> And that is the problem.
06:23:42 <zzo38> For English channels that have Japanese text typed in it, though, UTF-8 is more commonly used for that purpose.
06:23:45 <quintopia> i couldn't have caused that problem
06:24:00 <pikhq> No, but the same attitude causes that problem in Japanese.
06:24:19 <quintopia> people being wrong is not an attitude
06:24:22 <pikhq> BTW, English doesn't fit in ASCII or ISO 8859-1. Just FYI.
06:24:45 <zzo38> Why doesn't English fit in ASCII or ISO 8859-1?
06:25:04 <pikhq> zzo38: “Quotation marks”, anyone‽
06:25:25 <zzo38> That is, if you don't want straight quotation marks
06:25:58 <pikhq> Loan words; comprendé?
06:25:59 <zzo38> Curly quotes should be used only in books, not on computer text documents
06:26:16 <quintopia> and interrobangs should be used nowhere
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06:26:56 <quintopia> pikhq: i don't know any common use loan words that don't fit in ISO i8859-1
06:26:58 <pikhq> Diaresis, perhaps? (as in “coöperate” or “naïve”)
06:27:09 <Sgeo> Let'ſ ſee if I´ll have to kill anyone oveſ Unicode ♥
06:27:15 <pikhq> quintopia: "Arigatō".
06:27:18 <zzo38> You can use backspace to compose characters in plain ASCII, although a lot of program do not accept that
06:27:34 <Sgeo> Workſ perſectly ſor me
06:27:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: You fail at long s.
06:27:56 * Sgeo prepareſ to die by pikhq'ſ handſ
06:27:57 <pikhq> quintopia: Yes, and that's a completely horrifically wrong spelling.
06:28:10 <zzo38> I can see files that use backspace with the same character twice to make bold
06:28:11 <quintopia> pikhq: tends to be the case with loan words
06:28:18 <Sgeo> Yes, I know that ſ isn't f
06:28:21 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't think you are supposed to ever use long s at the end of a word
06:28:26 <quintopia> since we don't really borrow them, just steal them and modify them to our liking
06:28:38 <Sgeo> And I knew that too, although I think someone said that it used to be used there
06:28:42 <zzo38> And in modern typing, long s is not used at all
06:29:01 <Sgeo> When did schools stop teaching ſ?
06:29:17 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know, but it isn't commonly used these days anyways
06:29:24 <Sgeo> When did public education come to be, for that matter?
06:29:37 * Sgeo feels clueleſs
06:29:44 <quintopia> sgeo: in the U.S., long before the declaration of independence
06:29:51 <pikhq> quintopia: Also, dashes — as opposed to the common hyphen — are not in ASCII or ISO 8859-1.
06:30:08 <Sgeo> quintopia, that's the answer to which question?
06:30:15 <pikhq> quintopia: EEEEHHHH, wrong. Long s came out of use during the 1800s.
06:30:30 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Public education. Right.
06:30:52 <pikhq> It's written "In Congreſs Aſsembled" on the Constitution.
06:30:53 <Sgeo> How many people were angered by everyone's use of s?
06:31:32 <Sgeo> What is with the weird a?
06:31:37 <Sgeo> No one writes a like a
06:31:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: If you want to be über-cool, use ß for “ſ”.
06:32:07 <pikhq> (ß is the ligature for ſs)
06:32:24 <zzo38> Only in German, isn't it?
06:32:37 <pikhq> zzo38: No, though it fell out of use in English in the 1600s.
06:32:50 <Sgeo> ſs does look like ß
06:32:57 <pikhq> And was a bit uncommon starting in the 1500s.
06:32:57 <quintopia> pikhq: and when did fall out of use in english?
06:33:09 <pikhq> quintopia: Printing press.
06:33:13 <zzo38> Sgeo: It does if you put it close together
06:33:26 <zzo38> That is probably where it comes from
06:33:44 <pikhq> quintopia: Printers didn't have glyphs for þ, so they substituted first "y" and then "th".
06:33:45 <quintopia> and per se and is my fave ligature
06:33:51 <quintopia> in some faces, they are very pretty
06:33:53 <Sgeo> If I were to take a document containing "the" to back then, would it be understandable?
06:34:11 <pikhq> (this, BTW, is where we get the bizarre "ye old" thing. Because "y" was substituting for þ.)
06:34:28 <pikhq> zzo38: That *is* where it comes from.
06:34:34 <pikhq> zzo38: It is the ligature of ſs.
06:37:05 <quintopia> i should go to bed if i'm gonna get up in 5.5 hours
06:37:13 <Sgeo> Þe quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
06:37:36 <Sgeo> Þe quick brown fox jumps over Þe lazy dog
06:37:58 <pikhq> “Þe quick brown fox jumps over þe lazy dog”, þou mean'ſt.
06:39:02 <Gregor> I feel I almost have netcat for NT MIPS
06:39:10 <quintopia> Sgeo: you might find this interesting, in a scan it for info kind of way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_School_Laws
06:39:22 <Sgeo> I need to go to sleep
06:52:31 <Sgeo> Wikipedia claims that þ is Compose-T
06:52:39 <Sgeo> Which makes no sense
06:53:12 * Sgeo wtfs at Ctrl-Shift-ude
06:53:19 <Sgeo> What sense does that make?
06:53:57 <Sgeo> Oh, for unicode
06:54:03 <Sgeo> Huh, that makes a weird sort of sense
06:54:44 <Sgeo> How do you type it when the unicode has digits?
06:56:07 <zzo38> I don't like the \outer command in TeX.
06:56:42 <Sgeo> Ctrl-Shift-U2603
06:56:44 <pikhq> hey, look, it's 口+勹+缶!
06:57:56 <Sgeo> ⚠Fire in the disco⚠
06:57:57 <Sgeo> ⚠Fire in the disco⚠
06:58:15 <Sgeo> ⚠Fire at the Taco Bell⚠
06:59:02 <Sgeo> ⚠Don't you want to know how we keep starting fires‽
06:59:22 <Sgeo> It's my desire! It's my desire!
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07:00:46 <Gregor> Feh, got netcat to compile on NT MIPS, but it doesn't work :P
07:01:01 -!- AugurMD has changed nick to augur.
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07:06:55 <Sgeo> Placebo effect can't stain teeth, can it?
07:07:18 <Sgeo> Either my mouthwash is staining my teeth after two uses, or my teeth are really screwed up
07:07:25 <Sgeo> Or I just haven't noticed before
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07:09:27 <pikhq> Your teeth may be really screwed up.
07:13:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a4gyJsY0mc potentially nsfw, but no skin. Also certainly nsfh
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07:40:33 <Gregor> So who wants SSH into Windows? X-P
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07:54:28 <zzo38> \def\defnoexpand#1{\def#1{\noexpand#1\noexpand}}
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08:34:57 <zzo38> Here is an example demonstrating some of the new features of Enhanced CWEB version 0.3: http://sprunge.us/RBID
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09:54:36 <Vorpal> hm bogosort isn't stable right?
09:54:53 <Vorpal> a stable bogosort, I wonder how it could be accomplished
10:02:58 <zzo38> I think bogosort is when you mix it at random and then check to see if it is sorted or not.
10:04:20 <zzo38> I have read about a quantom bogosort, in which after checking to see if it is sorted or not, and if it is not sorted then you have to destroy the entire universe. If it is correct then you do not destroy the universe.
10:05:04 <zzo38> (I suppose one way of destroying the universe might be to cause a paradox?)
10:06:50 <zzo38> Maybe, I don't know
10:22:41 <Vorpal> I think that dell laptop has this CPU. (though I'm not 100% certain): http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=27593
10:25:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think DMM made it
10:25:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it is just one of those well known "joke" algorithms. IIRC it dates back to the 1980s or earlier
10:28:18 <Vorpal> how does that one work?
10:34:07 <Vorpal> in what way is it recursive?
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10:52:00 <zzo38> O, go drink hydroxic acid.
10:59:38 <zzo38> Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going to the garage makes you a car.
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11:24:44 <zzo38> Is this somewhat like how John Stump writes music? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/circuit_diagram.png (Except, that it isn't music, in this case.)
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11:58:11 <nooga> zangband zangband yeah'
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13:53:06 <olsner> haha, wine doesn't work on NTFS, becuase "NTFS does not provide all the file system features needed by some applications"
13:55:30 <Vorpal> olsner, wait a second... "on ntfs"? Are you running wine on windows?
13:57:41 <olsner> of course, they're probably talking about linux' ntfs support not providing all the features
14:02:38 <Vorpal> olsner, ah that makes a lot more sense
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15:20:06 <alise> 21:18:30 <Gregor> I have Windows NT MIPS running :)
15:20:14 <alise> pikhq: I blame you severely.
15:23:19 <alise> 21:49:17 <Sgeo> pikhq, but I'm used to alise avoiding all mention of such jokes, is all
15:23:26 <alise> Alive moms get no such preferential treatment :P
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15:24:51 <alise> 22:04:34 <quintopia> sgeo: also, it's unicode
15:24:51 <alise> 22:04:39 <quintopia> so you shouldn't use it
15:24:57 <alise> this channel has no such law
15:25:55 <alise> 22:11:15 <quintopia> the convention is so that people on mobile clients and such that don't support unicode aren't constantly bitching about funky gibberish in their screen
15:25:58 <alise> don't use such clients
15:26:38 <alise> 22:14:07 <Gregor> Shockingly, Visual C++ 2.0 MIPS doesn't have getopt.
15:26:40 <alise> How do you have it?!
15:26:58 <alise> ais523: (context: me and Gregor have been trying to get Windows NT working on a non-x86 architecture)
15:27:16 <alise> NT 4, specifically, but Gregor's cheated and done 3.5 because that's easy
15:27:21 <ais523> alise: is it an arch it was actually ported to?
15:27:29 <ais523> or are you trying to port Windows without (or with?) access to its source?
15:27:35 <alise> x86, Alpha, MIPS, PPC
15:27:50 <alise> are the archs NT 4 runs on
15:28:02 <alise> with MIPS, we've got all the bios and stuff setup so it does the part of the install before the first reboot
15:28:12 <alise> then gets into graphical mode, says it's initialising, then it freezes including the mouse forever
15:28:32 <ais523> <spam> A Computer Database Maintainance is currently going on our Webmail Message Center. Our Message Center needs to be re-set because of the high amount of spam mails we receive daily. A Quarantine Maintainance will help us prevent this everyday dilemma.
15:28:32 <alise> with PPC, the bioses are being stoopid and we can't get it to boot
15:28:40 <alise> with Alpha, we have no idea what the hell can simulate a full Alpha machine properly
15:28:47 <ais523> it fails completely because I'm not actually accessing the account via webmail
15:28:55 <ais523> also, it was sent three times
15:28:56 <alise> the Alpha one translates x86 Windows executables to Alpha JIT, though, which is awesome
15:29:00 <alise> and then *stores the translation* so there's no further overhead
15:29:08 <ais523> I noticed it mostly because the title was "HTML *******"
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15:29:48 <ais523> oh, I actually got two more copies it seems, with the title "SPAM: Important: Email Account Verification Update? ! ! !"
15:29:54 <ais523> the SPAM: at the start is added by the university spamfilter
15:29:59 <ais523> which often hits false positives, but not this time
15:30:05 <alise> hmm, were you there when I created a monster hybrid of Windows 2000 and NT 4?
15:30:36 <ais523> in other news, another spammer was talking about recalls for hip replacements
15:30:46 <ais523> a recall for one of those would probably make the news...
15:31:00 <alise> ais523: To make IE completely removable, I - like someone had done for XP - swapped in the NT 4 explorer.exe for 2k's.
15:31:19 <alise> Thus producing an ever-so-slightly broken but surprisingly-well-working 95-era interface on Win2k.
15:31:34 <alise> (One of the bugs is that the default action on folders was Find, not Open. :))
15:31:46 <alise> *was/is; pick one to keep it consistent
15:33:07 <olsner> maybe some registry hacking could get that default action fixed?
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15:33:57 <alise> olsner: almost certainly
15:34:10 <alise> but it also crashes an awful lot for no particular reason -- for instance every time you click a link in IE, and many other things besides
15:34:15 <alise> of course you'd remove IE, but...
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15:54:31 <alise> SCIENCE complete, results disappointing
15:58:10 <alise> specifically, I am completing online surveys for an entirely imaginary person who wishes to be contacted about nothing, and referring versions of myself with different email addresses, in order to get the Spotify Premium code at the end, just to see if it actually ever happens
15:58:23 <alise> right now i'm trying to figure out where i put the variation on my address to refer myself
16:00:56 <alise> lol, i think that one tries to iframe a survey so it can tell when it's done
16:00:59 <alise> but it breaks out of the iframe
16:06:39 <alise> "Remember that each of your referrals must complete 1 credit worth of offers to be classed as a complete referral."
16:06:45 <alise> Why didn't I guess that?
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16:14:13 <alise> now i'm getting excellent quotes on comparethemarket.com for my 1970H BMW 1600, 1573CC Petrol, 2DR, Manual
16:17:51 <alise> i give up; it won't confirm my vehicle
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16:24:05 <oerjan> <zzo38> (I suppose one way of destroying the universe might be to cause a paradox?)
16:24:21 <oerjan> i think that's the rather hypothetical part... :D
16:24:56 <oerjan> it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily.
16:27:04 <oerjan> what you can do is to make different ways of reaching the same outcome interfer with each other, destroying all of them. but it's not clear that you can always find some way to interfer away a particular outcome, afaik
16:29:04 <ais523> `addquote <oerjan> it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily.
16:29:14 <oerjan> (if you _could_, you'd probably have a way of solving NP-complete problems with quantum computing. scott aronson's blog Shtetl Optimized as as its subtitle "Quantum computers are not known to be able
16:29:17 <HackEgo> 227|<oerjan> it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily.
16:29:18 <oerjan> to solve NP-complete problems in polynomial time."
16:29:34 <ais523> oerjan: the same way quantum bogosort works?
16:29:51 <oerjan> ais523: that was the discussion zzo38 was responding to...
16:30:01 <ais523> also, I suspect that if it were possible to arbitrarily destroy the universe, unless it was incredibly difficult someone would have done so by now
16:30:12 <oerjan> i.e. it's not obvious you _can_ do quantum bogosort
16:30:28 <ais523> in fact, the anthropic principle rather implies that we live in a universe that's hard to destroy arbitrarily
16:31:02 <oerjan> ais523: um in this case the idea is that you would notice if someone destroyed the universe, since you would by many-worlds interpretation be in one of the universes that hadn't been destroyed
16:31:36 <ais523> hmm, and there are always worlds in which the universe is not destroyed?
16:31:51 <ais523> I suppose you have to draw a distinction between destroying the universe, and the multiverse
16:32:21 <ais523> between a class X-4 and a class X-5 on the TVTropes scale of apocalypse severities
16:32:40 <oerjan> ais523: yes, that in fact _does_ follow from quantum mechanics since the unitary evolution always preserves the length (i.e. square root of total probability) of the state vector
16:33:25 <ais523> meh, if you can destroy an entire multiverse, destroying maths and logic seems fairly easy by comparison
16:33:42 <alise> <ais523> also, I suspect that if it were possible to arbitrarily destroy the universe, unless it was incredibly difficult someone would have done so by now
16:33:44 <alise> not in the quantum sense
16:34:12 <alise> (this links in to the rather kooky idea of quantum immortality)
16:34:23 <Gregor> alise: Secretly ... oh so secretly ... the page you linked to with instructions on how to install NT4 MIPS in QEmu also has sufficient information to find where the author has squirreled away a downloadable copy of VC++ for MIPS :)
16:34:32 <oerjan> ais523: well all this stuff only becomes mildly realistic because you _can_ in some sense interpret interference of quantum waves as destroying the universes in which the wave sums are zero
16:34:47 <alise> Gregor: in the ported software section?
16:35:10 <Gregor> alise: Well actually yeah, there too.
16:35:12 <alise> Gregor: i freakin' found the page, netcatted you an iso and got a good part of NT installed, just tell me :P
16:35:16 <Gregor> alise: But that's not where I found the information :P
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16:35:23 <Gregor> One sec, need to refind the link :P
16:35:37 <alise> <alise> Gregor: i freakin' found the page, netcatted you an iso an
16:35:43 <alise> Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:21 PM 65012747 WindowsNT4.0-MIPS.iso.gz
16:35:46 <alise> woot, that one might actually work
16:35:56 <Gregor> alise: No, tried that.
16:36:02 <alise> what doesn't work about it?
16:36:25 <alise> http://vpsland.superglobalmegacorp.com/install/WindowsNT4.0-MIPS/GNUstuff/
16:36:44 <alise> http://vpsland.superglobalmegacorp.com/install/WindowsNT4.0-MIPS/irc/ OMG IRC
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16:38:23 <alise> Gregor: so is the iso exactly the same, more or less?
16:38:28 <alise> despite being presumably workstation?
16:38:39 <alise> Saturday, August 08, 2009 4:41 PM 234936 wimamp25.zip
16:38:54 <oerjan> heh, "The TCS Stack Exchange. Exponentially better than emailing Scott Aaronson."
16:39:00 <Gregor> alise: No, it's MIPS-only, but it's behaviorally close enough.
16:39:06 <oerjan> something tells me the guy feels a bit inundated :D
16:39:14 <alise> Gregor: So they just deleted the non-MIPS directories, then?
16:39:32 <Gregor> alise: Either that or it actually was a MIPS-only CD in the first place.
16:40:30 <Gregor> alise: I suspect the latter because it actually has a label that looks like a MS kind of label, and nobody bothers to label when they just make ISO images.
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16:42:14 <alise> Gregor: Ooh, I wonder if qemu 0.10 will work with MIPS? Although apparently old versions of QEMU get the colours wrong, and it was only a recent effort, so probably not, but I have it compiled anyway, so...
16:42:19 <alise> Any progress with PPC?
16:42:53 <alise> It boots the bios, at least. (qemu 0.10/mips)
16:43:26 <Gregor> alise: None, got too excited about MIPS :P
16:44:07 <alise> And loads the setup.
16:44:11 <alise> rc4030 ERROR: rc4030_writel: Cache maintenance not handled yet (val 0x1b)
16:44:21 <alise> Not sure the setup will start :P
16:44:39 <alise> Gregor: You do realise that whatever succeeds must be physically replicated?
16:45:10 <Gregor> alise: Except that it's substantially easier to physically install NT4 and say "screw QEmu" :P
16:45:20 <oerjan> `addquote <zzo38> Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going to the garage makes you a car.
16:45:38 * oerjan has no idea what made zzo38 say that, but found it amusing
16:45:39 <alise> Gregor: You forgot the "build, by hand, a motherfucking MIPS workstation".
16:46:05 <Gregor> alise: Except you can probably more easily buy, by hand, a complete motherfucking MIPS workstation.
16:46:09 <HackEgo> 228|<zzo38> Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going to the garage makes you a car.
16:47:05 <alise> Gregor: That's motherfucking cheating. Like buying a Dell computer when the goal is being fucking awesome.
16:47:12 <alise> BUILD the MIPS workstation.
16:48:17 <oerjan> mildly interesting programming system
16:54:03 <oerjan> <alise> this channel has no such law <-- frequent logreaders instead wish for a ban of iso-8859-1
16:54:45 <alise> actually, my browser interprets utf-8 as iso-8859-1 by default, as do i think many others
16:54:48 <alise> which is highly irritating
16:54:51 <alise> i guess that's what you mean
16:54:58 <alise> stupid server not sending the content-type header
16:55:00 <oerjan> especially this morning when the logs had a discussion in which different participants used iso-8859-1 and utf-8
16:56:12 <oerjan> most of the time my browser detects that the logs are utf-8 automatically, but not always
16:56:37 <oerjan> and when someone actually has used iso-8859-1 it of course breaks completely
16:57:23 <oerjan> while irssi guesses encoding on at least line-by-line basis, IE seems to have no such fine-grained option
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16:57:40 <alise> G-MIPSYEAH: is that from mips?
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16:59:12 <G-MIPSYEAH> It's convinced I'm not actually in this channel.
16:59:21 <alise> screenshot or gtfo
17:00:02 * oerjan memes about stacktrace
17:01:09 <G-MIPSYEAH> alise: It didn't even give me that message from you.
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17:01:38 <alise> SCREENSHOT OR FTGO
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17:02:05 <Gregor> Don't effing care or GTFO :P
17:03:52 <oerjan> Gregor: hey i'm good at that! sometimes.
17:05:19 <Sgeo> ARGH HOMEWORK DAMMIT
17:05:29 -!- G-MIPSYEAH has joined.
17:06:01 <G-MIPSYEAH> At least it knows I'm in this channel.
17:07:40 <oerjan> Gregor: well if i cared i'd have to GTFO, you told me so
17:07:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: oh we'll have to ban you then
17:08:00 <Sgeo> I assume that this is genuine MIPS, as JSMIPS would have no Internet connectivity
17:08:15 <Sgeo> Get NT to work on JSMIPS =P
17:08:16 <G-MIPSYEAH> Sgeo: It's QeEmu MIPS, running Windows NT.
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17:10:54 <Sgeo> Hooray, Firefox just loves crashing!
17:15:41 <alise> clearly the best way to do graphics in JSMIPS
17:15:55 <alise> G-MIPSYEAH: was the other one graphical?
17:18:58 <Sgeo> Oh, the screenshot wasn't of JSMIPS
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17:21:42 <alise> Gregor: I have a porpoiseal.
17:22:06 <Sgeo> I can barely have 5 tabs open in Fx when OpenOffice.org Writer is open
17:22:45 <oerjan> alise: your mad biology experiments will be your downfall, i tell ya
17:23:28 <Sgeo> I have no idea if I have enough disk space for that
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17:24:45 <Sgeo> If I get a bigger USB stick, could I set it up such that some of it is swap space?
17:29:33 <Gregor> But they would appreciate it.
17:33:18 <Sgeo> If girls with hair on the top of their heads count...
17:40:25 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> If I get a bigger USB stick, could I set it up such that some of it is swap space? <-- um that's silly
17:40:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, swap on flash is a bad idea generally
17:40:52 <Vorpal> due to write cycles being rather limited
17:41:16 <Vorpal> SSDs are generally rated for much higher write cycle count, so less of a worry there
17:56:17 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/ay98m.png Straight, gay, lesbian, hispanic, bisexual or unsure?
17:56:56 <alise> <Sgeo> If I get a bigger USB stick, could I set it up such that some of it is swap space?
17:56:56 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Probably.
17:56:56 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> You'd need to do some hairy things, though.
17:56:56 <alise> <Sgeo> If girls with hair on the top of their heads count...
17:56:58 <alise> stop doing that shit, it's not funny
17:58:33 <Sgeo> alise, did you miss what Gregor said?
17:59:06 <oerjan> girls _without_ hair on the top of their heads probably count, in a paradoxical way
18:00:30 <alise> Sgeo: that's got very little to do with the fact that half of the things you say serve no other purpose other than a de facto nick change to HormonesDeliveredThroughAnIRCSocket :P
18:02:43 <oerjan> and you wouldn't want to deliver your hormones that way, since it would be cut off
18:14:58 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's the first time I've seen Sgeo say anything that would corroborate that statement.
18:15:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well ok it's more like >1/3 of his jokes.
18:16:38 <alise> i'm not about to go log trawling
18:17:16 <Gregor> I don't understand people who have persistence of memory for other people.
18:17:34 <alise> i'm really good at it :P
18:17:46 <alise> i could easily tell who says what in this channel without names
18:18:06 <Gregor> Hack an IRC client to hide names and DO IT.
18:18:38 <alise> Gregor: i already proposed a game that takes a random recent snippet of logs and asks you to fill in the names
18:18:46 <alise> from the past few years
18:18:52 <alise> not from like 2005 when god knows who everyone was :P
18:19:10 <Sgeo> alise, make it!
18:19:15 <Sgeo> Don't just talk about it!
18:19:24 <alise> i told fizzie to make it
18:19:27 <Gregor> The problem is everybody else would suck at it :P
18:20:08 <Gregor> I still want to make botornot
18:22:45 <Sgeo> Crud, I have such a terrible memory for people :(
18:23:00 <Sgeo> I just got back in touch with a childhood friend who I haven't spoken to since 2004
18:23:14 <Sgeo> He remembers a lot about me
18:23:18 <Sgeo> I remember almost nothing about him
18:23:27 <Gregor> oerjan: Concept behind botornot: Reverse Turing test. Two players are brought together, one is a questioner, the other is an answerer. Also brought in is a randomly-selected bot. Both answer questions, and the answerer tries to convince the questioner (judge) that he's the bot. The questioner then guesses which is the bot. If you're a human and you get guessed as bot, you win points.
18:24:12 <Sgeo> I think I could pretend to be ELIZA-like
18:24:41 <Gregor> But if you were paired with a better bot, they would still think IT was the bot, 'cuz ELIZA is too easy.
18:24:49 <oerjan> Sgeo: Why do you think you could pretend to be ELIZA-like?
18:25:04 <zzo38> It seems all three sides could easily cheat
18:25:16 <Gregor> zzo38: The bot can't cheat.
18:25:20 <ais523> Gregor: there's a famous dialog somewhere where Douglas Hofstadter was asked to assess a "new chatterbot"
18:25:22 <Gregor> zzo38: The questioner certainly can't cheat.
18:25:32 <ais523> when he was actually being connected to a group of students pretending to be a bot
18:25:38 <Gregor> zzo38: The only other issue is timing, and that can be smoothed out.
18:25:43 <Gregor> ais523: lawl; what about timing?
18:25:48 <zzo38> Gregor: I don't believe you. They can all cheat.
18:25:57 <ais523> he was told the connection was to a mainframe at the other end of the campus
18:26:03 <Gregor> zzo38: What does it even mean for the judge to cheat?
18:26:07 <ais523> and bandwidth was so limited those days that the high latency was plausible
18:27:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: sure. perhaps even without the numbers
18:27:29 <alise> what rough time is that from?
18:27:37 <alise> also, you forgot to censor lifthrasiir; is he a number?
18:28:08 <zzo38> Gregor: I suppose one way is doing things other than simply sending normal messages. Such as looking elsewhere. Or other protocol commands.
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18:28:31 <Gregor> zzo38: That's just silly. Why are we building such a criminally broken system around this? I never claimed it was IRC.
18:29:07 <Gregor> zzo38: And sending random text or whatnot is fine.
18:29:12 <zzo38> Gregor: I know that. But if it is IRC there is obviously those way. If it isn't IRC, there might be other ways.
18:29:21 <alise> ais523: what did he conclude?
18:29:26 <zzo38> And there are ways that are not even part of the protocol, possibly.
18:29:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: got all but #1, very small sample size there
18:29:45 <ais523> alise: first they convinced him it was a rather inept bot, and he believed it
18:29:53 <Gregor> zzo38: Everything you're mentioning is /within the realm of what the judge is allowed to do/, you just need to respond in the right bot way.
18:29:55 <ais523> and then they used the fact he thought it was a bot to try to weird him out
18:30:04 <alise> ais523: did it work?
18:30:09 <ais523> eventually he side-channeled it, on the basis that everyone was too busy laughing
18:30:16 <ais523> but it worked for a while
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18:31:00 <Gregor> zzo38: And really, your only argument thusfar is "if you fuck it up really bad, the judge can cheat". So don't fuck it up so bad :P
18:31:28 <alise> #1 = I don't know; uses standard orthography, may be quoting some incorrect source or simply having typoed meaning no strong aversion to uppercase/exclamations for probably-comedic effect. "Well, pressable, apparently." seems to suggest someone, but I don't know who.
18:31:28 <alise> #2 = uorygl (if not, then maybe Phantom_Hoover? probably not)
18:31:30 * oerjan _thinks_ #3 may be oklopol
18:31:35 <zzo38> Gregor: Ah, OK. (I suppose if it is IRC, it is possible to write te client to do certain things with CTRL+A VERSION and so on, is that cheating?) But it doesn't have to be IRC, it can be a simple protocol
18:31:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: These are my guesses.
18:31:49 <Gregor> zzo38: It can be a web page where you enter text.
18:31:52 <oerjan> (i _had_ typed that, just needed to press enter)
18:31:54 <alise> oh, #2 also use comma pings
18:31:54 <Gregor> That's the whole interface.
18:31:56 <alise> so it can't be Phantom_Hoover
18:32:05 <alise> he uses comma-highlights
18:32:05 <zzo38> Gregor: That doesn't count as a simple protocol like I said
18:32:15 <alise> ok, I know believe it's more balanced between uorgyl and phanty
18:32:19 <alise> but i'll still go for uorygl
18:32:21 <Sgeo> alise, you remember details like that?
18:32:27 <Gregor> zzo38: There's no value in making this have a "simple protocol", and I never claimed it would.
18:32:29 <alise> it's Phantom_Hoover
18:32:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: rank my guesses?
18:33:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: so it was you?
18:33:50 <zzo38> A simple protocol would be where two clients tonnect to the judge's server... The judge's screen displays messages with their IP address and broadcasts messages typed to the clients. To make it a bit harder to cheat, both clients can connect through Tor nodes
18:34:10 <Gregor> zzo38: That makes timing a nightmare.
18:34:22 <alise> 14:24:17 <#4> They'd be all "sorry, we're out of numbers right now, but we'll be getting more next Tuesday from our number mines".
18:34:22 <alise> 14:24:45 <#4> Everything comes from mines.
18:34:22 <alise> 14:25:27 <#4> Yes, they refine primes from large composites extracted from the earth.
18:34:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: fizzie
18:34:34 <Gregor> zzo38: The bot can always respond instantly, but the user will take time, messages need to be buffered for some predetermined amount of time (30 seconds?) to get rid of the timing channel.
18:34:43 <alise> 30 seconds is too much
18:34:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: :)
18:35:00 <Gregor> alise: Give the user time to think :P
18:35:06 <alise> Gregor: 15 to 20, then
18:35:09 <alise> Gregor: 30 is just boring
18:35:14 <alise> Gregor: also, if the user enters faster
18:35:31 <Gregor> alise: But then the length of the bot's submission could make it obvious.
18:35:43 <alise> Gregor: i didn't actually read the idea :)
18:35:44 <Gregor> alise: If you say "yes" and the bot spits out Moby Dick, and it sends in 3 seconds, GEEE
18:35:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So yeah, I am pretty good at it.
18:35:55 <zzo38> You are right about that
18:36:06 <alise> Gregor: so make it not spit out moby dick :P
18:36:19 <Gregor> alise: Remember, the bot writer wants the judge to think their bot IS a bot.
18:36:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ah, i wouldn't have got that
18:36:27 <Gregor> alise: And that would make it clear that their bot is a botr.
18:36:30 <alise> was the CERTIAN thing a quote
18:36:41 <alise> Gregor: so the human has to pretend to be a bot?
18:36:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: okay. what's the day, fwiw?
18:36:46 <zzo38> Would the Moby Dick be too large file?
18:36:52 <Gregor> alise: That's the whole idea.
18:37:11 <alise> Gregor: well that's easy
18:37:14 <alise> just say whatever eliza would say
18:37:29 <zzo38> (Even if it is HTTP, the server can easily reject a file that is too large)
18:37:34 <Gregor> alise: But ELIZA is too easy, if the bot is slightly more cleverer, they'll figure the human is being an idiot and the bot is really the bot.
18:37:38 <Gregor> alise: The judge isn't a retard.
18:37:56 <alise> i'd always mark eliza as a bot :P
18:38:03 <alise> or are we trying to make the bots more realistic?
18:38:07 <alise> which would make them less humanlike
18:38:12 <alise> defeating the point
18:38:14 <Gregor> alise: Doesn't matter.
18:38:26 <Gregor> alise: The bots are whatever bots seem OK, that's like, the whole trick to the thing.
18:38:29 <Sgeo> I remember seeing an ELIZA thing on TV
18:38:35 <Sgeo> Which interested me in Pandorabots somehow
18:38:38 <alise> Gregor: then why not eliza
18:38:44 <Sgeo> And I don't know if that actually lead anywhere
18:39:15 <zzo38> I have run the ELIZA program manually using dice, before.
18:39:22 <Gregor> alise: The bot COULD be eliza, but if the majority of the bots in the botbank AREN'T eliza, then just going with the one that seems like eliza is a bad guess.
18:39:42 <alise> Gregor: Well, get coding.
18:39:57 <alise> Gregor: Or I guess I could :P
18:39:59 <nooga> The Mangy looking leper begs you for money.
18:40:57 <nooga> The Novice ranger tries to cast a spell, but fails.
18:41:22 <Gregor> alise: In fact, it would even be OK to have an interface that just lets you chat with some bot, to try to get an idea of what the bots in the botbank are like.
18:41:35 <alise> Gregor: makes it too easy and less hilarious
18:41:57 <Gregor> alise: How does it make it too easy? The judge and the answerer can both chat with the bot.
18:42:15 <alise> because you could just intricately study every bot
18:42:24 <alise> and typos would let you win
18:42:28 <nooga> You feel yourself yanked downwards!
18:42:55 <Gregor> alise: You think you can imitate a bot that well, with any amount of studying at it, but with the input being unpredictable? I think you're being extremely optimistic.
18:43:16 -!- delayed_optbot has joined.
18:43:24 <alise> It's not that hard, is it, delayed_optbot?
18:43:32 <delayed_optbot> alise: I don't see how that architecture could ever work :-P
18:43:39 <alise> Why not, delayed_optbot?
18:43:54 -!- delayed_optbot has quit (Client Quit).
18:44:08 <alise> i am the worst bot ever
18:45:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: For what?
18:45:31 <alise> Gregor: http://github.com/tycho/openhackware
18:45:35 <alise> Gregor: Maybe the latest version will work better.
18:45:49 <Gregor> alise: Latest version is the version Debian has.
18:45:57 <alise> Latest *git commit*? Okaay.
18:46:17 <alise> Gregor: I bet we can get OpenHackware working with latest qemu.
18:46:50 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
18:46:58 <alise> With the right -M.
18:48:19 <alise> Gregor: hmm, does it have any compilation options?
18:48:21 <alise> like for certain machines
18:48:36 <Gregor> The only machine it supports is QEmu.
18:48:37 <Sgeo> I like being able to type in Unicode⚠
18:48:55 <alise> Gregor: but it says machine meulation
18:48:58 <alise> [[OpenHackWare is an OpenFirmware emulator intended to be used on PowerPC machines. It is not a real OpenFirmware as it knows nothing about Forth. It emulates the OpenFirmware boot time interface as well as the RTAS interface. It also emulates some known "interpret" strings, to make it able to launch known OSes.]]
18:49:02 <alise> so it does openfirmware too, why
18:49:20 -!- distant_figure has joined.
18:49:20 <Sgeo> What did I just type?
18:49:33 <alise> Gregor: http://www.openfirmware.info/SmartFirmware
18:49:38 <alise> Gregor: An alternate Open Firmware implementation.
18:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, does anyone remember that relativistic CA we tried to make a while ago?
18:49:49 <Sgeo> Isn't OpenFirmware use Forth?
18:50:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
18:50:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It appears that someone managed to get SR working in a CA.
18:51:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: link
18:51:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/wolfram/ mentions it tangentially.
18:52:12 <alise> mark smith is the 110 prover
18:52:21 <alise> that was matthew cook
18:52:50 <alise> 1994 mit dissertions with cellular automat(a|on) in the title
18:53:08 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CBwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.18.7750%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&rct=j&q=Mark%20Smith%20relativistic%20cellular%20automaton&ei=KoifTLCRM8f24AbY5IytDg&usg=AFQjCNFEED0eug9-OOdH4yWN5y9vtTaMtw&sig2=aq92m9j25Gxoal_PLVFcnQ&cad=rja seems to be it.
18:54:13 <Gregor> alise: Doesn't support PPC
18:54:33 <alise> Gregor: Okay, so, MIPS!
18:54:37 <alise> Why does it freeze
18:54:43 * Sgeo misread that as power
18:54:46 <Gregor> I don't care, 3.51 rules
18:54:59 <alise> Gregor: You're crazy.
18:55:09 <alise> Gregor: Also, ahem.
18:55:11 <alise> The challenge NEVER ENDS.
18:55:25 <Gregor> Dude, 3.51 is win32 with a win16-like interface!
18:55:39 <alise> Win16-like interface = horrible :P
18:55:48 <alise> Gregor: Anyway, the challenge DOES NOT END. We made an agreement. CONTINUE
18:56:12 <Gregor> I'm done, I got Windows NT running on MIPS.
18:56:59 <alise> Gregor: We said NT 4.
18:57:45 <Sgeo> Gregor, JSMIPS JSMIPS JSMIPS
18:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> §4 of that dissertation has the Lorenz-invariant CA stuff, it appears.
18:58:02 <alise> Gregor: You violated a secret oath.
18:58:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: § is section, not page, you know
18:58:17 <alise> Oh, you meant section.
18:58:28 <Sgeo> § is a simoleon
19:00:54 <Sgeo> What good is the symbols for control characters if the damn symbols don't show up?
19:00:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, we get it. You can dump Unicode into the channel.
19:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> And the symbols for control characters don't show up because THEY'RE CONTROL CHARACTERS.
19:01:47 <Sgeo> No, those are supposed to be the symbols that represent them when you want to print something
19:02:13 <Sgeo> NUL on a diagonal
19:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Again, control characters should never be represented graphically.
19:04:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: they can be in e.g. editors that edit binary files
19:05:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes, that's what the fancy representations are for.
19:05:28 <Sgeo> And those fancy representations are what I was trying to print
19:05:34 <Phantom_Hoover> But Sgeo seems to expect them to be printed if there's a null in the channel.
19:05:51 <alise> lightspeed doesn't require infinite energy in CAs
19:05:55 <alise> e.g. th elightspeed telegraph
19:06:01 <nooga> ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
19:06:22 <oerjan> alise: not in the real world either, as long as you use luxons
19:06:28 <nooga> longest living zangband character just died ad fucking dlvl 11 by disease
19:06:34 <Sgeo> http://decodeunicode.org/en/control_pictures
19:06:41 <Sgeo> "EDIT This Unicode block is a collection of visible glyphs for control characters."
19:06:42 <nooga> i played with this goddamn char whole summer
19:06:49 <nooga> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
19:06:53 <alise> oerjan: still, though :P
19:06:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i'm jst saying
19:07:04 <Phantom_Hoover> And there's not even a sensible formulation of "energy" in Life.
19:07:45 -!- myndzi has joined.
19:08:58 <alise> Gregor: New challenge.
19:09:01 <alise> HURD on real hardware.
19:09:07 <alise> Preferably: Itanium.
19:09:14 <nooga> turd on real hardware
19:09:16 <oerjan> alise: you need a hamiltonian/lagrangian mechanics for energy to really make sense, afaik
19:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Trying to apply physical things to Life is stupid in the first place.
19:09:28 <alise> you're stupid in the first place
19:09:38 <alise> nooga: good luck getting an itanium workstation
19:10:00 <oerjan> alise: life isn't reversible like microscopic physics, for one thing
19:10:18 <alise> what's the most interesting reversible CA?
19:10:49 <oerjan> no idea, although rule 30 is at least locally reversible
19:11:23 <oerjan> well i don't _know_ any notable 2d reversible ones
19:11:26 * Phantom_Hoover isn't even sure if there *are* any 2D reversible CAs of interest.
19:11:48 <oerjan> incidentally global reversibility is undecidable for 2d CAs but not for 1d iirc
19:12:18 <oerjan> (that's a big iirc in this case)
19:13:10 <alise> even if they're >2 colours
19:15:56 <Sgeo> can't be algorithmically determined, for any 2d ca, whether or not it's globally reversable
19:16:09 <oerjan> well that's what i _think_ i am recalling
19:16:24 <alise> that seems obvious to me :)
19:16:33 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/HPP_small.gif hypnotic
19:16:34 <Sgeo> What's the difference between global and local reversibility?
19:16:44 <alise> hmm if you have a bunch of arrows
19:16:50 <alise> then obviously to reverse a state, make it move back one
19:16:57 <alise> but if they go in opposite directions when collided
19:17:03 <alise> then whenever you have e.g. <>
19:17:06 <alise> just flip both of them to reverse
19:17:11 <alise> or if they advance one at the same time
19:17:17 <alise> then <.> turns into ><
19:17:22 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so that's the most interesting one I can think of.
19:17:24 <alise> same with colliding wals
19:17:31 <alise> so at least the version in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/HPP_small.gif is easy enoughto reverse
19:17:36 <alise> otoh, it isn't terribly interesting
19:17:41 <alise> there are reversible turing machines
19:19:31 <oerjan> Sgeo: well global would mean here that a given configuration of the _whole_ infinite space has only one possible parent
19:19:58 <alise> not langton's ant, surely
19:20:06 <alise> not when it collides
19:20:08 <alise> after spinning off
19:20:12 <alise> dunno, maybe i'm wrong
19:20:28 <Sgeo> One consequence: If there's life, it can never die out
19:20:30 <alise> hmm perhaps the best way of designing a reversible CA is figuring out how to go one step backwards, then just doing that in reverse >:)
19:20:31 <Sgeo> That's awesome
19:20:33 <alise> (yes, that *is* a joke)
19:20:41 <alise> it can die out as long as it leaves a corpse
19:20:47 <oerjan> while local would mean that if you have most of the parent configuration itself, but are missing a finite portion, you can only fill it in in one way
19:21:00 <oerjan> rule 30 fulfils the latter but not the first iirc
19:21:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I was thinking that if you retraced the ant's steps, that would make it reversible.
19:21:54 <Sgeo> Can something be globally reversable but not locally?
19:22:55 <Sgeo> alise, corpses have to live
19:23:22 <alise> no, it could just stay there forever
19:23:25 <alise> immortal but unmoving
19:23:25 <Sgeo> You can't go from non-still-life to still-life
19:24:06 <alise> well, that's not true
19:24:10 <alise> you can collide with something else in Life
19:24:14 <alise> but who said we're talking about Life?
19:24:16 <alise> Life isn't reversible
19:24:24 * Sgeo was talking about a globally reversable CA
19:24:30 <alise> <Sgeo> You can't go from non-still-life to still-life
19:24:33 <alise> is not necessarily true at all
19:25:55 <oerjan> Sgeo: no because globally reversable means you have a unique parent even if you have _no_ information about it beyond its child configuration. btw i'm probably misremembering terminology something vicious here
19:26:34 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton#Reversible corresponds to what i call global
19:28:34 <Sgeo> what's the unique parent of a stilllife that a non-stillife gave rise to?
19:29:05 <oerjan> alise: in a reversible automaton you cannot get a still-life from a non-still life because a still life is its own parent and can have no non-stillife one
19:29:38 * oerjan marvels at his own inconsistent hyphenation
19:29:45 <alise> oerjan: oh, of course
19:29:58 <alise> well Sgeo it could turn into a very stupid form of life, i guess
19:30:57 <Sgeo> I actually understood something before alise did?
19:31:02 <Sgeo> What is this witchcraftery?
19:32:03 <oerjan> THE END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH
19:33:00 <oerjan> hm another way of saying what i call local reversibility is that two configurations that differ in a finite set of cells cannot have the same child
19:34:02 <Sgeo> But on the other hand, life will never be able to venture into the empty universe
19:35:04 <Sgeo> Maybe nevermind
19:35:37 <oerjan> for a reversible CA you could have something that shrunk from unbounded size to something small, then expanded back again
19:36:51 <oerjan> otoh if a configuration's ancestors are all finite then they must repeat, and so the descendants are also (the same repeating) finite configurations
19:37:07 <alise> hmm, so basically all life grows eternally :)
19:37:22 <alise> or ungrows and regrows forever
19:37:27 <alise> living your life backwards :P
19:37:33 <alise> if it starts living its life backwards
19:37:37 <alise> then nothing can change
19:37:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, incidentally, you can go from spaceshipoid to still-life in Life.
19:37:42 <alise> nobody can suddenly shoot it while it's regressing
19:37:47 <alise> because that would mean it wouldn't have finite states
19:37:59 <alise> because the predecessor of point P would be in one timeline whatever should happena
19:38:01 <oerjan> alise: it doesn't have to go backwards the same path, you just need a cycle
19:38:11 <alise> oerjan: hm? but it's global
19:38:32 <oerjan> i mean if it's finite always
19:38:55 <oerjan> also my correction above was because you can obviously have something that's finite but eternally moving
19:39:04 <Sgeo> Could a hypothetical scientist in a CA ever deduce that cells and generations exist?
19:39:40 <alise> well, he could create an accurate model with them
19:39:42 <oerjan> Sgeo: why not, we in the real world have hypothesized planck time and length
19:39:45 <alise> but i don't think you could verify it
19:39:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It could have a particle accelerator that fired gliders at each other and checked the debris.
19:40:03 <alise> because you can't "see" a dot moving from one cell to another
19:40:11 <alise> so it looks continuous to you
19:40:12 <oerjan> and a CA world _might_ have an easier time proving it
19:40:18 <alise> because you only exist "in" the generations too
19:40:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Although life in Life would either be insanely sparse and ultra-redundant, or so fragile it would die before it could do anything.
19:41:21 -!- cheater99 has joined.
19:41:59 <alise> i doubt Life itself can sustain life
19:42:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Which leads to the interesting scenario that they would have a workable equivalent of attotechnology.
19:42:05 <alise> it obviously can sustain life
19:42:22 <alise> can you make "life" in Life that has to pick up "food" every now and then?
19:42:34 <Sgeo> Life is turing-complete
19:42:44 <alise> and maybe the more food it has, it goes faster?
19:42:45 <Sgeo> If we can simulate a mind in a computer, we could simulate it in Life
19:43:06 <alise> 22:14:07 <Gregor> Shockingly, Visual C++ 2.0 MIPS doesn't have getopt.
19:43:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, assuming evolution, the first lifeform to develop a power source would dominate completely.
19:43:31 <Sgeo> Although such a simulation would likely not be able to do science at the level required..
19:43:48 <zzo38> If it is turing complete then it would be possible to make it have to pick up food every now and then, I suppose, but not necessarily in a way that might be expected
19:44:08 <alise> there's a replicator in life
19:44:12 <alise> (knightship, but it just erases itself)
19:44:15 <alise> so that's asexual reproduction
19:44:19 <alise> is there any sexual reproduction in life?
19:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Let's assume that the lifeform is made of very sparse, stable technology.
19:44:23 <alise> like, so far known
19:44:45 <alise> two ships of some sort that, when some part of them collides in a certain way, they build a third ship
19:44:47 <alise> and then continue on
19:45:01 <Phantom_Hoover> So a stray glider won't cause the kind of catastrophic collapse it does with periodic, dense constructs.
19:45:46 <Phantom_Hoover> That replicator came out of nowhere, and people were tinkering with it when I stopped checking regularly.
19:46:21 <alise> haha really? link?
19:46:28 <alise> anyway sexual reproduction would be interesting if it exists
19:46:43 <Sgeo> http://linuxdesk.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/could-not-open-location-you-might-not-have-permission-to-open-the-file-totem-movie-player/
19:46:50 <Sgeo> I don't see a youtube.py to patch
19:46:52 <alise> because i'd say that anything that 1) relies on food to survive and 2) reproduces sexually is DEFINITELY life
19:47:10 <alise> (things that don't meet those criteria can be life too, it's just that I think anything that fulfils those two is unquestionably life)
19:47:42 <oerjan> i seem to recall some "official" definition of life involving "capable of undergoing darwinian evolution"
19:47:51 <alise> oerjan: that's just in our universe :-)
19:47:59 * Sgeo wants conscious life
19:48:01 <alise> if you had those food-eating, reproducing creatures
19:48:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, any form of evolution would pretty quickly lead to lifeforms with their own power supply.
19:48:04 <Sgeo> That can do science!
19:48:08 <alise> and put them in a repeating pattern of space with food in it
19:48:10 <alise> that'd be interesting
19:48:19 <alise> because if they're stupid and reproduce in an area they've already gobbled up
19:48:25 <alise> their babies will die before they reach food
19:48:27 <alise> but if they're not
19:48:31 <alise> and reproduce enough
19:48:36 <alise> there's a very high chance they'll reproduce forever
19:48:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And some of the space will be unusable, either from corpses or random bits of ash left over from initialisation
19:48:51 <Sgeo> How do we make it so it selects for intelligence?
19:49:00 <alise> evolution isn't something you design...
19:49:02 <alise> that's sort of the point
19:49:14 <Sgeo> What pressures could we apply, I mean
19:49:17 <alise> evolution is what happens when you have threats in an environment and random mutation due to reproduction
19:49:22 <alise> make clever bad guys.
19:49:24 <alise> which is the same problem
19:49:26 <alise> so basically nothing
19:49:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, if a lifeform can work out how to fix unusable space, it would have an advantage.
19:51:05 <alise> of course what we really want is lifeforms made out of the equivalent of a few hundreds to a few thousands of particles
19:51:15 <alise> when in reality you'd almost certainly have to zoom way, way, way out to see anything
19:51:22 <alise> and at that scale the actual life mechanics aren't very interesting or relevant
19:51:22 <Phantom_Hoover> (Have I made it clear what my assumed lifeforms are like, by the way?"
19:51:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Very sparse, stable, redundant components for everything.
19:52:10 <alise> for my idea of a simple definitely-lifeform, i'm imagining spaceships with little dangly reproductive bits that, when a certain part collides with the reproductive bit, both of them work to create a clone
19:52:11 <Sgeo> Eventually, when we notice them working on low-level physics, how do we communicate with them?
19:52:13 <alise> and then continue on
19:52:23 <alise> and, also, some sort of energy supply that can be replenished by them going into food
19:52:31 <alise> (ideally they'd search for it in a stupid way)
19:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, they could send out glider and LWSS streams to sense things.
19:52:46 <alise> if we got that, I'd have the firm conviction that Life can sustain life
19:53:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: true, hey, it'd be peacocky
19:53:10 <alise> if we had evolution,
19:53:15 <alise> they'd evolve things that absorb gliders
19:53:19 <Sgeo> They woudln't know to attempt to initiate communication
19:53:21 <alise> and send back an "OMG REALLY FERTILE HOT HOT" signal
19:53:48 <alise> Sgeo: we don't communicate
19:53:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Which directly implies good synthesis apparatus and patterns.
19:53:53 <alise> it would be very hard to
19:54:00 <alise> it is incredibly unlikely that they will be anything like us
19:54:12 <alise> heck, even communicating with aliens in this universe is a huge chore at best
19:54:15 <alise> and basically impossible at worse
19:54:24 <alise> we're talking about different *fundamental universe structures* here
19:54:39 <alise> so... we just watch. and don't interfere.
19:54:49 -!- augur has joined.
19:54:51 <Sgeo> But we understand to some extent how their universal structure works
19:55:06 <Sgeo> Better than they do... although perhaps at too low a level to be useful
19:55:11 <alise> now pile an incomprehensible number of layers of complexity on top of it
19:55:16 <alise> plus an evolved form of life that we didn't design
19:55:20 <alise> that has evolved so much it's intelligent
19:55:29 <alise> and is therefore utterly incomprehensible to us with very high probability
19:55:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I can see them discovering particle physics in this model.
19:56:05 <alise> their particle physics, presumably
19:56:12 <alise> agreed, but they wouldn't be able to verify that they're in a discrete universe
19:56:22 <alise> to do that, you'd have to observe a dot jumping from one cell to another
19:56:31 <alise> because they *don't exist* in those moments
19:56:40 <alise> because they're busy state-changing themselves
19:56:43 <alise> and this applies to all machinery too
19:56:50 <alise> so to them, the universe looks completely continuous
19:56:52 <alise> how freaky is that?!
19:56:53 <Sgeo> alise, they could do things that a discrete universe is the best explanation for?
19:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but if they discovered the b3/s23 mechanic independently and then discovered "hey, this *exactly* models the results for the LGC!"
19:57:10 <alise> but they could never observe a discrete universe
19:57:13 <alise> large glider collider :D
19:57:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yep
19:57:19 <alise> it's just crazy, i mean
19:57:22 <alise> we could be in a discrete universe
19:57:25 <alise> even though it looks completely continuous
19:57:36 <Sgeo> I thought it looks discrete to us?
19:57:39 <Sgeo> planck length, etc
19:57:46 <alise> planck length is just the length below which everything is fucking strange
19:57:58 <alise> which is actually quite an indicator that we're not seeing what's really going on there
19:58:04 <alise> so planck length may be our cell size :)
19:58:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i wouldn't go so far as probably, Mr. Wolfram
19:58:11 <alise> but it sure is interesting
19:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, this also gives them the ability to design microchips.
19:58:40 <alise> synthesis is a bit hard in CA universes i think
19:58:50 <alise> but they'll be at such a macroscopic scale that they won't see the microscopic particles doing crazy shit to get it done :)
19:58:53 <alise> not sure they could evolve it though
19:59:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: WireWorld :-)
19:59:13 <Sgeo> I still want to talk to them :(
19:59:26 <Sgeo> Maybe tell them about cells and generations
19:59:35 <alise> Sgeo: even if you /could/, there's no way you'd possibly live long enough to see them evolve into intelligent life!
19:59:45 <alise> even the fastest Life simulators run many times slower than our freaking universe!
19:59:47 <alise> many, many times slower!
19:59:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Which run *very* quickly compared to even our stable technology.
19:59:53 <alise> we're talking about the entirety of evolution up to humans here!
20:00:26 <alise> the only way this will _ever_ happen is if there is some kind of lunatic project to run and maintain an almost impossibly-fast computer running this over the course of countless civilisations, disasters, wars -- anything
20:00:40 <alise> that somehow *survives* for those -- I don't even know how many years it'd take, far too many, anyway.
20:00:45 * Sgeo decides to rename alise to Debbie Downer
20:00:52 <alise> if we're in a post-singularity situation
20:00:54 <alise> all living inside its VR
20:00:57 <alise> time outside is irrelevant
20:01:09 <alise> and a gajillion years may pass in what is everyone's perceived second
20:01:15 <alise> then it could be done in seconds
20:01:28 <alise> by simply running (an incomprehensible number) of generations every tick of the AI
20:01:38 <alise> which would have no subjective effect on us
20:01:44 <alise> and we could observe it going by awfully quickly
20:02:16 <alise> (now whether we'd be around to recognise civilisation before it puffs out, who knows? the AI could store all the past generations if the universe has boundless storage... (or just really, REALLY incomprehensibly big storage))
20:03:25 <alise> this stuff is ridiculously interesting
20:03:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:03:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: talk more
20:03:33 <Sgeo> http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=53512&start=0
20:03:33 -!- augur has joined.
20:03:38 <Sgeo> You are so fucking unhelpful
20:04:07 <alise> linux mint is dumbness
20:04:24 <Sgeo> alise, I have the same problem as in that post
20:04:32 <Sgeo> But the responders seem to be less-than-bright
20:04:40 <alise> they're linux mint users
20:04:55 <Sgeo> Although maybe Mplayer would work...
20:05:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i would be very surprised if intelligent organisms had fine enough control to synthesise gliders.
20:05:12 <alise> but then, the fact that we can do the LHC is surprising too :)
20:05:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, an alien watching us in the stone age would say the same.
20:05:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "Oh, I suppose they'll split the atom with a pointy rock."
20:06:11 <alise> "It's a really, really sharp rock, though." "But it's a ROCK."
20:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm assuming that there was an evolutionary advantage already to fine glider syntheses.
20:07:04 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:07:42 <alise> imagine if they discovered the lightspeed telegraph :)
20:07:55 <alise> "What the fucking fucking what." "Yeah, you know what? I'ma start believing in God."
20:08:20 <alise> "THIS MAKES NO FREAKING SENSE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"
20:08:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Agar was one of the things I considered them discovering.
20:08:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I bet the bubbles in agar end up revolutionising their physics into something completely incomprehensible like quantum physics did for us :)
20:09:01 <alise> how the hell would they observe agar?
20:09:04 <alise> you can't really, can you?
20:09:07 <alise> only the time from start to end
20:09:09 <alise> not what happens inside
20:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, their sensory arrays will cause a catastrophic collapse in the agar.
20:09:24 <Sgeo> If a bubble leaves the Agar...
20:09:26 <alise> and how the heck would they build it?
20:09:35 <alise> can you even build agar?
20:09:44 <Vorpal> are you discussing life in game of life or something?
20:09:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: haha wow i just realised, what would a glider gun look like to them
20:09:51 <alise> "WHAT THE FUCK ALL THE COLOURS"
20:10:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hey, still life would be invisible to them.
20:10:06 <Sgeo> What if they accidentally built a spacefiller?
20:10:13 <alise> if they used better spaceships
20:10:20 <alise> then they could see still life
20:10:22 <Vorpal> alise, is *intelligent* life possible in a completely deterministic simulation?
20:10:37 <alise> unless you believe in free will
20:10:37 <Vorpal> well, that depends on your view of free will I guess
20:10:39 <alise> which just makes you an idiot
20:10:49 <alise> (free will in /that/ sense, that is)
20:11:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, most of our Life patterns are unbelievably fragile.
20:11:12 <alise> i don't think you can synthesise a spacefiller
20:11:15 <alise> at least not with current knowledge
20:11:27 <alise> although yeah, you just need better lifeforms :P
20:11:30 <alise> you can easily destroy a spacefiller
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20:11:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh right tur
20:11:48 <Sgeo> GoL Life might end up being just that fragile
20:11:48 <Vorpal> alise, the "real" world isn't deterministic, at least if you subscribe to quantum mechanics
20:11:54 <Sgeo> Such that a stray glider kills everyone
20:11:56 <alise> well, is it known that salvo glider synthesis or whatever it is
20:12:02 <alise> is it known that you can synthesise more than that?
20:12:06 <alise> Vorpal: not necessarily true at all
20:12:14 <Sgeo> Then science comes along..
20:12:14 <alise> Vorpal: they could be pseudorandom numbers from the universe above
20:12:19 <alise> which would look totally random to us
20:12:22 <alise> assuming we don't know the seed, etc.
20:12:37 <alise> i sort of doubt quantum effects *give the brain free will*
20:12:39 <alise> that's just insane
20:12:44 * Sgeo agrees with alise
20:12:56 <alise> iirc neurons interact in some way with quantum effects
20:12:57 <Vorpal> alise, true, just saying it isn't deterministic
20:13:05 <Sgeo> I used to ponder that God interacted with the world by quantum effects
20:13:05 <alise> but i doubt that matters as much as the free will believers would like to think
20:13:12 <alise> you used to ponder some stupid stuff :P
20:13:36 <Sgeo> Wait, neurons do interact with quantum effects?
20:13:37 <zzo38> In my opinion, quantum effects are part of the effect that makes free will, and possibly also partially the effect of consciousness.
20:13:39 * Phantom_Hoover pondered if everyone in the world was a reincarnation of his line of consciousness, conspiring against him.
20:13:42 <alise> Sgeo: well it was a pop science article
20:13:52 <alise> but apparently some little element of neurons was quantum
20:13:55 <Vorpal> a lot of things does that you wouldn't think do
20:13:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: there's a very short story about that
20:14:01 <Vorpal> (interact with quantum effects that is)
20:14:20 <Vorpal> iirc gold is yellowish due to quantum tunnelling
20:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, you actually construct nigh-invulnerable shielding in Life.
20:14:21 <alise> tl;dr he dies, "hi, i'm you." "wat" "so is everyone else." "ohhh" "you're actually an alien trying this shit out." "ok" "have fun" [revived]
20:14:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: is there a database of life patterns anywhere?
20:14:27 <alise> disconnected from the wiki
20:14:34 <alise> stores rle, shows it, description, comments, categories
20:14:44 <alise> gives them all unique identifiers
20:14:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there's the Life Lexicon, but it's not at all thorough.
20:14:55 <zzo38> Vorpal: O, so that is why elements are the color they are?
20:14:56 <alise> Vorpal: yeah gold's colour is cool :)
20:15:01 <alise> zzo38: not necessarily
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20:15:03 <alise> just gold, i think
20:15:06 <alise> and maybe some others
20:15:08 <alise> not every element by far
20:15:11 <Sgeo> Let's pretend that it weren't completely impossible, and try to communicate with GoL intelligent life
20:15:11 <alise> gold is a strange one
20:15:14 <Sgeo> What would we say?
20:15:21 <alise> Sgeo: does it matter? they wouldn't believe us.
20:15:23 <Vorpal> zzo38, maybe copper too
20:15:29 <alise> at least not their sceptics
20:15:37 <Sgeo> We could prove it
20:15:49 <Sgeo> We could ask them to perform some experiment, and change the result wildly
20:15:57 <alise> you can always formulate a new theory of physics that works like that
20:16:01 <alise> that's why we can't be sure god exists in here
20:16:04 <alise> and it is in fact an argument often posed
20:16:08 <Sgeo> Oh, prove that physics is what we describe it to be
20:16:09 <Vorpal> zzo38, anyway it is just for metals in the metal state. If they aren't greyish (copper and gold are the only ones iirc?) then it might be quantum tunneling
20:16:27 <Sgeo> alise, that's what you were getting at?
20:16:33 <zzo38> Vorpal: So that's why! Now I understand a little bit.
20:16:44 <alise> it is possible to be very convincing
20:16:50 <alise> but we can never prove it outright
20:16:53 <Vorpal> zzo38, well, I'm not completely sure that is the case for copper. *googles*
20:16:56 <alise> and, well, i have a feeling that in *this* universe
20:17:08 <alise> there is a _sizeable_ amount of atheists who would *never* believe
20:17:26 <alise> (not *rationalists* of course, but *atheists*)
20:17:34 <Sgeo> Even if a voice came out, stated "Run this experiment, this is waht the result would be", etc.?
20:17:34 <Vorpal> ah no, not the case for copper
20:17:35 <alise> (although they probably think of themselves as the former)
20:17:41 <alise> Sgeo: you don't seem to understand what proof means
20:17:44 <Vorpal> "Copper, osmium (blueish) and gold (yellow) are the only three elemental metals with a natural color other than gray or silver.[3]"
20:17:46 <alise> even evolution isn't proven
20:17:57 <alise> proof is *rock hard* and *completely, mathematically unquestionable* even in theory
20:18:22 <alise> of course very little is actually proven about this universe
20:18:26 <alise> so it's not a huge deal
20:18:34 <alise> but anyway, i think we'd have a hard time communicating like them
20:18:37 <alise> even if we knew their language
20:18:41 <alise> we don't know how they *think*
20:18:44 <alise> we don't know how to argue with them
20:18:47 <alise> we don't know how their logic works
20:18:57 <alise> so we'd have a very hard time convincing them of anything
20:19:08 <Vorpal> zzo38, it seems to be different mechanisms for gold and copper
20:19:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, the direction rules in Life would lead to some interesting effects.
20:19:21 <zzo38> If you say everyone has a reincarnation of your (or a specific person's) line of consciousness, then you have failed to take it into account as the entire universe as a whole. Everything is a part of the entire universe as a whole, including by quantum entanglement and warped spacetime geometry and other things.
20:19:42 <Phantom_Hoover> You would only be able to talk to someone if they were in a cardinal line with one of their emitter organs.
20:20:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: damn, imagine their porn.
20:20:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how so?
20:20:24 <alise> also not true, there are non-cardinal spaceships
20:20:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, knightships
20:20:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well okay
20:20:43 <alise> i'll bet any sentient organism is a hell of a lot bigger than the knightship!
20:21:01 <zzo38> There is evidence for micro-evolution and parts of macro-evolution, but that isn't proof, and we can have a lot of things about evolution wrong, that we do not know. Nevertheless, these theories can help even if they are entirely wrong.
20:21:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, correction: smallest known. There could be other ones.
20:21:08 <Sgeo> What if this were in b36s23?
20:21:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose it would be all right for very long-distance communications along a well-maintained channel.
20:21:18 <alise> zzo38: macro-evolution is true.
20:21:29 <alise> there is doubt, but it is so small as to fall far below the doubt we have in other things we readily accept.
20:21:39 <zzo38> alise: At least in general. Of course it is possible to have some details wrong.
20:21:48 <alise> evolution isn't very detailed
20:21:50 <alise> it's a simple tautology
20:21:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also, what about the diagonals? Gliders aren't moving in the cardinal directions
20:22:19 <alise> "if you have random mutations as part of reproduction, and you have threats, then obviously mutations that better survive threats will live to reproduce more, passing on this mutation"
20:22:31 <alise> "therefore, the offspring of the mutated will outlive the non-mutated, because they have better survival characteristics"
20:23:05 <Vorpal> <alise> evolution isn't very detailed <-- do you mean "natural selection" with evolution?
20:23:15 <alise> so does everyone else :)
20:23:33 <alise> evolution is just the changes being passed down, natural selection is why it helps :P
20:23:39 <alise> neither are questionable in any way
20:23:45 <zzo38> alise: Ah, if that is what you mean by "macro-evolution" then obviously it works. But it doesn't mean *everything* actually works that way, even if many things do work that way.
20:24:06 <Vorpal> alise, hm I read somewhere that in the bleeding edge biology research there is a discussion if natural selection is the only driving force of evolution
20:24:21 <alise> there's discussion about an awful lot of crap in science :p
20:24:30 <Vorpal> alise, what about genetic drift then?
20:24:42 <alise> but natural selection IS a driving force
20:24:44 <alise> even if it isn't the only one
20:24:49 <alise> and i think it being the main one is basically assured
20:25:04 <Vorpal> alise, I never disputed that it was the major one
20:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, sexual selection has long been acknowledged as a non-natural selective force.
20:25:14 <Vorpal> just that it was the only one
20:25:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm sexual selection being?
20:25:49 <Vorpal> (I'm no expert on this, I just remembered reading a few things)
20:26:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, what it says on the tin. One sex selects their mate based on a characteristic with no survival value.
20:26:20 <alise> Or penis length :P
20:27:33 <Gregor> alise: That selection particularly has no survival value when it's the male doing the selection.
20:28:00 <alise> Gregor: Nothing has any relevance in homosexual couplings :P
20:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Fun fact: humans have, proportionately, the longest penises of any apes.
20:28:07 <alise> Seeing as, y'know, there's no reproduction.
20:28:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: HA HA SUCKS TO BE APES
20:28:19 <alise> Wait, have you measured this?
20:28:23 <Sgeo> *SUCKS TO BE NON-HUMAN APES
20:28:27 <Gregor> alise: Who said it was a homosexual coupling? Surely when choosing a female mate you want the one with the smallest penis size :P
20:28:48 <alise> Gregor: Pretty sure vaginoplasty does not include ovaroplasty yet :P
20:28:54 <alise> Ovaroplasty: WORST WORD EVER
20:29:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Disproportionate? I LIKE disproportionate."
20:29:52 <Harpyon_> So I just had an idea about creating a python package with different esoteric interpreters in it, allowing you to do stuff like "python esoteric.py brainfuck hello.bf"
20:30:09 <alise> Harpyon_: Hellooooo Esco
20:30:16 <alise> Actual comment: utterly pointless
20:30:21 <alise> Here, I can implement esoteric.py easily:
20:30:25 <alise> just execute the rest of the command line
20:30:28 <Harpyon_> That's what I was wondering actually, does such a thing exist already?
20:30:30 <alise> There is no point having it in one file.
20:30:31 <Sgeo> Nothing bad about it, just.. boring
20:30:35 <Vorpal> Harpyon_, yes but it sucks
20:30:43 <alise> It is exactly equivalent to having "brainfuck" be a separate executable.
20:30:49 <Sgeo> Even PSOX is more interesting
20:30:51 <alise> Harpyon_: Then why have it all run with esoteric.py?
20:30:57 <alise> Why not just run the interpreters directly?!?!
20:31:28 <alise> Anyway, we're discussing ape penis sizes and discrete universes, stop being on-topic.
20:31:31 <Sgeo> I think Harpyon_ wants a single package deal
20:31:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Continue.
20:31:50 <Sgeo> This one package contains a variety of esolang interpreters
20:31:52 <Vorpal> alise, are you sure our universe isn't discrete?
20:32:09 <alise> Vorpal: very unsure!
20:32:14 <alise> i'm more sure that it is discrete
20:32:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Combine both.
20:32:26 <alise> "Ha ha, your penis is only 10^23 cells long."
20:32:37 <Sgeo> But they can't see cells!
20:32:48 <Sgeo> Maybe they'll have a way to measure cells though
20:32:48 <alise> Sgeo: IT WAS A JOKE
20:32:49 <Vorpal> how can they "see" at all
20:32:54 <alise> Vorpal: how can we "see" at all
20:33:00 <alise> shit hits our eyes
20:33:03 <alise> reports back to brain
20:33:09 <alise> in a CA, it's more likely that they send out shit
20:33:11 <alise> the shit comes back
20:33:14 <alise> reports back to brain
20:33:15 <Vorpal> alise, well there are photons and sensors for them. You would need some sort of "glider gun sun" or something
20:33:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: naturally
20:33:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: on *microscopic* scales
20:33:23 <Vorpal> that spread gliders everywhere
20:33:30 <alise> Vorpal: nobody said it has to be like in this universe
20:33:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: we're basically looking at atoms, remember
20:33:42 <alise> on the large scale
20:33:43 <Vorpal> alise, there is no need for vision even
20:33:44 <Sgeo> Oops, my trying to see created a destructive construction. We all die now.
20:33:47 <alise> really, really large, macro scale
20:33:54 <alise> REALLY REALLY REALLY large, macro scale
20:33:58 <alise> you could easily have a resilient spaceship
20:34:03 <alise> that can return home after hitting shit
20:34:06 <alise> or, like Vorpal said
20:34:12 <alise> "glider gun sun" or something of that sort
20:34:16 <oerjan> `addquote <alise> Anyway, we're discussing ape penis sizes and discrete universes, stop being on-topic.
20:34:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, like ageing?
20:34:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: again remember
20:34:31 <alise> we're looking at particles in a vacuum
20:34:38 <alise> nothing says we have to have vacuum where life is :P
20:34:41 <Sgeo> What patterns might be accidentally made that expand endlessly?
20:34:44 <alise> they may live entirely in an agar!
20:34:45 <Sgeo> And destructively?
20:34:47 <alise> a very complex, subtle agar
20:34:51 <alise> but an agar nonetheless
20:34:53 <Vorpal> alise, agar being? I forgot
20:35:06 <alise> Vorpal: basically any material that certain stuff can move around in
20:35:09 <alise> usually, at lightspeed
20:35:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well true
20:35:26 <Sgeo> They can't really evolve to live in an agar, can they?
20:35:29 <alise> but it's usually what an agar gets you
20:35:36 <alise> Sgeo: the agar can be there before they are
20:35:42 <Sgeo> If they live in an agar, then it's because we did it
20:35:42 <ais523> could someone with the esoknowledge go and correct http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fish's blatant misinformation about Befunge?
20:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Even the standard, boring agar doesn't have c transmission in all directions.
20:35:49 <alise> have a huge, completely random pattern
20:35:52 <ais523> *<http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fish>
20:35:58 <alise> more than any of our computers' memories, combined
20:36:08 <alise> try again if it doesn't work
20:36:13 <alise> of course we'd want to cheat, but
20:36:18 <ais523> it's one thing saying your lang is different from Befunge, and another saying it's different /because it's threaded/
20:36:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that could work.
20:36:35 <HackEgo> 228|<alise> Anyway, we're discussing ape penis sizes and discrete universes, stop being on-topic.
20:36:42 <alise> ais523: Harpyon_ just reinvented esco a few seconds ago
20:37:01 <Vorpal> Harpyon_, befunge98 have threads
20:37:03 <ais523> ah, missed that Harpyon_ was in the channel
20:37:04 <Sgeo> Am I considered to have reinvented PESOIX?
20:37:21 <Phantom_Hoover> The sparse universe model is nicely near to our universe, actually.
20:37:24 <ais523> probably not, the idea's too obvious to count as being reinvented
20:37:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not really. our universe is 3d :P
20:37:41 <alise> Harpyon_: you lied!
20:37:52 <Vorpal> Harpyon_, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fish claims to be made by you. However befunge98 have threads.
20:37:54 <Harpyon_> I never saw anything about that
20:38:03 <alise> YOU'VE HAD LIKE 48545 YEARS TO LEARN HAD/HAS
20:38:07 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, in the sense that almost everything is photon-permeable empty space
20:38:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: bah
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20:38:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i want a fun universe
20:38:24 <Sgeo> I has a way to give alise an aneurseum
20:38:31 <Sgeo> And I can never spell that word
20:38:46 <Vorpal> Harpyon_, and with the loadable extension (fingerprint) ATHR it can even get async-multiple-core style threads
20:38:47 <Harpyon_> I don't see anything about threads in the instructions of befunge
20:38:54 <alise> <Sgeo> I has a way to give alise an aneurseum ;; just seems like cheezburgr
20:38:55 <ais523> Harpyon_: are you looking at Befunge-98?
20:39:03 <alise> Harpyon_: http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html
20:39:08 <Sgeo> I could just sing...
20:39:08 <ais523> IIRC, the command is "t"
20:39:13 <ais523> but I'm not a Funge expert
20:39:17 <Vorpal> Harpyon_, befunge93 is different from befunge98. Befunge98 is rather extended
20:39:19 <alise> 116tSplit/98/c Split IP
20:39:38 <Sgeo> Harpyon_, from my singing? Good idea
20:39:40 <Sgeo> Very good idea
20:40:36 <alise> <Vorpal> oh god I think sgeo got stuck in a loop discussing his singing, instead of discussing active worlds
20:41:11 <Vorpal> alise, that was a nasty thing to do though :P
20:41:12 -!- iGO has joined.
20:41:18 <alise> okay i promise never to do it again
20:41:20 <alise> don't hurt me with sticks
20:41:21 -!- iGO has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:41:38 <Vorpal> alise, I don't plan to...
20:41:45 <Vorpal> alise, I wouldn't call this thing a stick really
20:41:50 <Sgeo> The Order of the Stick?
20:41:51 <Vorpal> I mean, it might have the same general shape
20:41:57 <alise> Vorpal is referring to his penis
20:42:05 <alise> * Freud :Nickname is already in use.
20:42:14 <Vorpal> alise, but calling an ICBM a stick is really stretching it
20:42:30 * Sgeo ducks and covers
20:42:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you could perhaps sing in activeworlds?
20:43:04 <Sgeo> AW does have a voice... thingy
20:43:24 <Vorpal> ouch, I didn't plan for that answer
20:44:09 -!- nooga has joined.
20:44:13 <alise> thankfully, there is nobody else in AW to hear Sgeo
20:44:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, kill which?
20:44:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the singing or AW?
20:45:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover probably means just AW
20:45:32 * oerjan swats alise (hey it's not a _stick_) -----###
20:46:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, you could have used the saucepan, that would have made it completely unambiguous (as far as I can tell at least)
20:47:29 <oerjan> <Vorpal> oh god I think sgeo got stuck in a loop discussing his singing, instead of discussing active worlds <-- wait is this good or bad?
20:47:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hmm
20:47:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Life movies would be 1d
20:47:47 <alise> since our movies are 2d :)
20:47:55 <alise> (plus i can't think how they could see in 2d)
20:48:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, I have no idea
20:48:06 <Sgeo> I think they could see in 2d
20:48:14 <alise> buffering and pixellated
20:48:17 <Sgeo> I don't know how, though
20:48:25 <Vorpal> <alise> (plus i can't think how they could see in 2d) <--- hm
20:48:33 <Sgeo> And any 1d displays would need to have some thickness, I think
20:48:39 <Vorpal> alise, does that mean that we are 4D but can only see in 3D?
20:48:55 <Vorpal> though it would be awesome if it did
20:48:58 <Sgeo> Although, it probably wouldn't display individual cells
20:49:16 <alise> Vorpal: we see in 2d
20:49:23 <alise> with rudimentary depth perception
20:49:37 <alise> (some people lack depth perception and they see in true 2d. these people hate stairs)
20:49:40 <Sgeo> Suppose their eye had a sort of quantum unit that they can't see lower down then
20:49:40 <alise> (no, really, they do)
20:49:55 <Vorpal> alise, you mean one-eyed person?
20:50:02 <Sgeo> So even without my glasses, I have feeble depth perception, not none
20:50:03 <alise> Vorpal: no, some people actually lack depth perception entirely
20:50:06 <Vorpal> that is not true, due to focus
20:50:14 <alise> it's an actual thing
20:50:17 <alise> you're born with it oc
20:50:23 <Phantom_Hoover> With a bit of care, you can make your hand into a cardboard cutout!
20:50:36 <alise> try running quickly with one eye closed
20:50:37 <Vorpal> alise, so they have like shutter = f11? Otherwise they would get blur out of focus like everyone else
20:50:38 <alise> a scary experience
20:50:49 <alise> Vorpal: i'm not sure exactly
20:50:53 <Sgeo> For me, that's the default
20:51:01 <alise> i just know they they literally have no depth perceptions, and stairs are their worst enemy
20:51:05 <Sgeo> Glasses give me an incredible sensation of actually living in a 3d world
20:51:12 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I have one good eye and one terrible eye
20:51:13 <nooga> only pinhole cameras are close to hiperfocal
20:51:21 <Sgeo> So when I wear glasses, I get use of both eyes
20:51:32 <Vorpal> I get everything more than, say, 30 cm a bit blurred without glasses
20:51:38 <Sgeo> Actually, hmm, my bad eye can still see this screen ok
20:51:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, I had that idea about Lifeforms using spaceships to advertise their fitness.
20:51:43 <Vorpal> but it doesn't really change the 3D perception
20:51:54 <Sgeo> But a room away, I can't read text
20:52:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: indeed
20:52:07 <Sgeo> Well, it .. looks different, somehow
20:52:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Since advanced synthesis facilities have huge survival value.
20:52:27 <alise> "Hi, I'm the Yoyodone Synthesis and Manufacturing Corporation -- but you can call me Yoyo."
20:52:36 <alise> *Corporation's Main Facility
20:52:45 <alise> "Wanna see my SECONDARY facility? ;)"
20:52:56 <Sgeo> I can synthesize quantum bombs by accident!
20:53:17 <alise> LET US COLLIDE OUR DANGLY REPRODUCTION PARTICLES
20:53:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how would the "logic" for decisions be done?
20:53:45 <Vorpal> the "thinking" so to speak
20:53:49 <alise> not all organisms think.
20:53:51 <nooga> i can kill a single bacteria in range of 100km
20:53:54 <Sgeo> It would have evolved
20:54:06 <alise> as for basic decision-making, uhh, you can do "conditionals" in life
20:54:06 <Sgeo> We're hoping for thinkers ;)
20:54:20 <alise> What my mind read into that ;): <Sgeo> So we can mate with them ;)
20:54:22 <Vorpal> nooga, how precise is it?
20:54:48 <Sgeo> Suppose that life exists easily on a small scale, but thought needs a large-scale.. oh wait, that's the case in this universe
20:54:51 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway none of us would be close enough to be able to verify it :P
20:55:13 <Sgeo> alise, you're turning into me again
20:55:17 <alise> life doesn't exist on THAT small a scale
20:55:24 <alise> nothing like what we look at in Golly :P
20:55:55 <Vorpal> even a bacteria in GOL (if possible) would be enormous
20:56:01 <Sgeo> We need a name for a unit of life in GOL-Universe
20:56:31 <Sgeo> Hmm, assuming that such a concept necessarily makes sense
20:56:45 <Vorpal> alise, is lagoon's (sp?) ant TC btw?
20:56:57 <alise> Vorpal: langton's, and no way.
20:57:02 <alise> it repeats. always
20:57:12 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/LangtonsAnt.png
20:57:14 <Vorpal> alise, not proved iirc?
20:57:20 <alise> "The universality of Langton's ant was proven in 2000."
20:57:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought multiple ants interacted in a universal way.
20:57:27 <alise> worldview destroyed
20:57:28 <Sgeo> They can do organism-level science, presumably?
20:57:41 <alise> "In 2000, Gajardo et al. showed a construction that calculates any boolean circuit using the trajectory of a single instance of Langton's ant.[2] Thus, it would be possible to simulate a Turing machine using the ant's trajectory for computation. This means that the ant is capable of universal computation."
20:58:07 <Vorpal> alise, indeed, I thought it always settled into that repeating pattern
20:58:37 <Vorpal> "All finite initial configurations tested eventually converge to the same repetitive pattern suggesting that the "highway" is an attractor of Langton's ant, but no one has been able to prove that this is true for all such initial configurations. It is only known that the ant's trajectory is always unbounded regardless of the initial configuration"
21:00:33 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I realized something before alise did
21:00:47 <Sgeo> So that hasn't been helping]
21:02:31 <Sgeo> That globally reversible CA implied that no non-stilllife became a stilllife
21:02:47 <Vorpal> alise, btw if life ever evolves in GOL, what are the chances of us realising it is life
21:02:55 <alise> intelligent life? low
21:03:10 <Vorpal> alise, how do you mean
21:03:17 <alise> we will probably recognise that intelligent life is certainly something complex, but unless we've been following the evolution, we will probably see it more as a huge machine
21:03:27 <alise> and even if we have been watching the evolution, it would be hard for us to recognise what is intelligent and what is not
21:03:35 <alise> also, it takes way too long to ever observe this stuff on a meaningful scale
21:03:45 <Vorpal> alise, and how would we be able to tell if something was life at all?
21:03:55 <alise> same way we do in this universe
21:03:59 <alise> basic life isn't *that* gigantic
21:04:03 <Sgeo> Maybe if we see it doing experiments that are sensitive to low-level things, we'd know that they discovered low-level physics?
21:04:07 <alise> especially since GoL cells are quite useful
21:04:10 <alise> as opposed to stupid quarks
21:04:12 <Vorpal> alise, well here we tend to look for carbon
21:04:20 <alise> carbon is irrelevant
21:04:31 <alise> non-carbon based lifeforms are possible even in this universe
21:04:47 <oerjan> large scale order would be a pretty obvious clue
21:05:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that is, building life out of GoL cells is a lot easier than building life out of quarks
21:05:01 <Sgeo> Hmm, would there end up being "elements" in their universe possibly?
21:05:04 <alise> since GoL cells actually make sense ;)
21:05:04 <Vorpal> alise, what exactly is life? Isn't it just a complex machine?
21:05:12 <alise> Vorpal: or a simple machine.
21:05:17 <Sgeo> That would imply a .. weird level of simulation I think
21:05:18 <alise> it has to interact with its environment, probably
21:05:20 <Sgeo> And is unlikely
21:05:22 <alise> so the turing machine isn't life
21:05:26 <alise> since it just sits there and computes
21:05:32 <alise> a turing machine that moved around and did stuff would be life
21:05:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I still like the idea of attoscale engineering for the Lifeforms.
21:05:54 <Vorpal> alise, does that mean stuff like a lego bot that moves around is alive?
21:06:04 <nooga> i'm the knight who say ni
21:06:08 <alise> it's not organic life, but it's as much alive as an amoeba is
21:06:11 <alise> Vorpal: IF, it reproduces.
21:06:15 <alise> asexually or sexually.
21:06:26 <Vorpal> alise, so what about crossing a hourse and a donkey...
21:06:29 <alise> an organism is a machine that moves around, does stuff, and reproduces
21:06:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It would need lots of shielding and carefully controlled inputs.
21:06:36 <alise> Vorpal: shut up :)
21:06:45 <alise> an organism is a machine that moves around, does stuff, and that either reproduces or is the descendent of something that does
21:06:52 <Vorpal> alise, though I guess you could argue that it's cells are still alive
21:06:57 <Vorpal> because they can divide
21:07:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean?
21:07:24 <Sgeo> Awesome. Minitube doesn't work
21:07:39 <Sgeo> Define "atto"?
21:07:50 <Vorpal> alise, okay, so what building a lego bot that could, given a carefully sorted set of lego elements, build a copy of itself?
21:08:18 <Sgeo> I still think we need a proper name for cell/generation level stuff
21:08:24 <alise> Vorpal: in a universe of lego bricks, sure :P
21:08:36 <alise> it'd have to sort from raw materials
21:08:43 <alise> I think i'd mandate that it has to sort the bricks itself
21:08:46 <alise> but even if it doesn't
21:08:56 <Vorpal> alise, well, we can't produce some stuff from raw materials. Mostly some amino acids
21:09:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: how big are p30s again?
21:09:06 <Vorpal> alise, we need other animals or plants to do that
21:09:13 <Vorpal> thus we are not alive?
21:09:20 <Sgeo> I still want to _talk_ to them
21:09:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: link me to a p30, i've lost my sense of scale
21:09:44 <Sgeo> Any ships containing these beings would probably be large
21:09:46 <Vorpal> alise, as for sorting the bricks I guess an NXT have the power to do image processing
21:09:51 <Sgeo> But does large imply slow?
21:09:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ah. noted
21:10:13 <alise> big in both dimensions, sure
21:10:16 <alise> big in one dimension, probably not
21:10:20 <Vorpal> alise, but colour sensor + brick sorting has been done
21:10:23 <Sgeo> Would they have any incentive to go into space?
21:10:34 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe if the universe started with a random soup
21:10:50 <Sgeo> There would be some evidence of amazing technology out there
21:11:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, did you follow my earlier stuff on resource competition?
21:11:12 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, um, competing for space
21:11:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not really
21:11:49 <Sgeo> alise was hoping we'd design the basic lifeforms to need food
21:12:07 <alise> i mean i know there's perpetual motion machines, but
21:12:09 <Vorpal> we can't design life, but it could evolve to have food
21:12:22 <alise> if you don't have an infinite energy generator in you
21:12:25 <alise> you have one less weak point
21:12:29 <alise> and you'll probably be a lot smallre
21:12:33 <alise> if you rely on food
21:13:14 <Sgeo> So, to solve their overcrowding problem once they're intelligent, they build ships?
21:13:20 <Sgeo> Instead of fighting, like they want to?
21:13:38 <Vorpal> Sgeo, humans still fight
21:13:56 <Sgeo> They may not ever decide it's wrong to kill
21:14:23 <alise> humanity still hasn't
21:14:41 <Sgeo> s/alise/DebbieDowner/
21:14:50 <alise> DebbieActuallyRealer
21:16:34 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Downer
21:16:49 <alise> The character's name is a slang phrase which refers to someone who frequently adds bad news and negative feelings to a gathering, thus bringing down the mood of everyone around them. Dratch's character would usually appear at social gatherings and interrupt the conversation to voice negative opinions and pronouncements. She was especially concerned about the rate of Feline AIDS, a subject that she would bring up on more than one occasion.
21:16:52 <alise> obviously it predates that, but
21:16:57 <alise> couldn't get a better link at a pinch for the slang
21:17:58 <Sgeo> I didn't realize it was a slang term >.>
21:18:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, incidentally, I don't think murder will be very easy once small-scale self-sufficiency evolves.
21:18:49 <Sgeo> I seem to be obsessed
21:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Consider that all easy methods of killing people involve disrupting their internal supply apparatus.
21:19:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:19:42 <Phantom_Hoover> If each cell has a mitochondrion producing an unlimited glider stream, there *is* no internal supply chain.
21:19:46 -!- augur has joined.
21:19:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Simple: Obliterate the cells.
21:20:01 <Sgeo> Kill the mitochondrion
21:20:03 <alise> Fire out a ton of fucking gliders.
21:20:15 <alise> And since this is at a pretty large scale: A TON OF FUCKING GLIDERS.
21:20:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Or, if you don't mind suicide:
21:20:31 <alise> Simply walk right in to them.
21:20:38 <Phantom_Hoover> In which case your firing mechanism is so dense it's an easy target.
21:20:39 <alise> There's no force stopping that, unlike in real life.
21:20:49 <alise> You can pass right through them -- and destroy both your internal systems.
21:21:33 <alise> Omg, that would be cool, having two identical intelligent lifeforms existing at one point, then one killing the other.
21:21:48 <alise> And the other submitting to it.
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21:24:25 <SgeoN1> So there'd be a quantum of movement?
21:25:26 <SgeoN1> Can't easily duplicate yourself from current position to current position +0.5
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21:26:24 <alise> it is possible they'd be gradual spaceships
21:26:33 <Sgeo> But it's discreteness at a different scale
21:26:34 <alise> basically stretching a bit to the right, yet still staying stable
21:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> As far as movement goes, I'd assume either fixed lifeforms or UC replicators.
21:26:38 <alise> then shrinking and lobbing off your end
21:26:56 <alise> like single-celled organisms do
21:27:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: uc replicator? i doubt that
21:27:19 <alise> they'd surely have an optimised way of just moving into a new version of themselves
21:27:27 <Sgeo> Maybe they're naturally stationary, but eventually build ships that allow movement
21:27:36 <alise> not sure lifeforms would be TC, but anyway
21:27:43 <alise> if you ask me, the stretch-and-shrink one is the coolest
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21:27:54 <alise> imagine copy/pasting some additional columns of a lifeform and having it still work stably!
21:28:02 <alise> and then just having the end blow itself up
21:28:06 <alise> *that* would be *amazingly cool*
21:28:18 <Sgeo> What would be cool is communication *cries*
21:28:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume you mean that the organism is <>, and we make it <=>.
21:28:50 <alise> Sgeo: how do you know they'll even care about whether god exists or not?
21:28:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: sort of, i was thinking something even cooler
21:29:12 <Sgeo> Why should they have to care?
21:29:30 <Sgeo> They might want answers to questions of science
21:29:39 <alise> it's <,'^":> and we make it, say, <,'^"::> then .<'^"::> (where . is blank space), then it morphs back into .<,'^":>
21:29:42 <Sgeo> We can answer attoscientific questions
21:29:52 <alise> of course, if all the ,'^":s are the same, you don't even have to morph
21:29:56 <alise> Sgeo: they have no reason to believe us.
21:30:10 <Sgeo> Maybe we could provide experiments
21:30:23 <Sgeo> Or, in fact, demonstrate something that they can't build themselves
21:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's very reminiscent of some embryology experiments.
21:31:04 <Sgeo> We'd have to learn their science before doing anything too crazy
21:31:07 <fizzie> For the hhgttg books, we had a bot-driven competition game where it spewed out 5 lines of text from one of the books, and the user who said fastestly which book it was from got a point.
21:31:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: see, i'm a genius
21:31:32 <alise> Sgeo: this is bullshit
21:31:35 <alise> Sgeo: how do they know we're not lying?
21:31:41 <alise> why would they trust us?
21:31:52 <alise> how do they know they're not just reading shit into our messages, that it's actually natural phenomena?
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21:32:09 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, let's suppose we managed to get across the way of simulating the GoL to them after they'd built the LGC.
21:32:10 <Sgeo> Ok, that last point is very, very significant I guess
21:32:24 <Sgeo> Maybe we could act like a supersmart one of them
21:32:28 <Sgeo> Send off the same signals
21:32:30 <alise> then we'd be Einstein.
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21:32:39 <alise> and they might still hate us.
21:32:41 <Sgeo> Except able to ... bleh
21:32:42 <alise> they might still question us.
21:32:46 <alise> they might still "kill" us.
21:32:50 <alise> JESUS DIED FOR YOUR SCIENCE
21:32:59 <alise> science, pronounced "sins"
21:33:06 <alise> the great thing is i can see how science would be pronounced like that
21:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> They could see that the model is working, and at least get a huge leap in technological progress.
21:33:16 <alise> sci = si, en = n, ce = s
21:33:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: they can figure out that stuff themselves
21:33:37 <alise> also, way to kill the sense of achievement and progress
21:33:38 <Sgeo> Maybe they can't
21:33:42 <Sgeo> Maybe they can't
21:33:45 <alise> "what's the point of research? they can just tell us."
21:33:53 <Sgeo> Hmm, that's true
21:33:53 <alise> Sgeo: if they can't figure it out
21:33:55 <alise> they can't test it
21:34:05 <alise> (if they can't figure it out but can test it then they just can't understand it)
21:34:08 <alise> (so it's pointless telling them anyway)
21:34:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Although we might run a cosy attoscale manufacturing industry.
21:34:18 <alise> but yeah, killing their scientific drive is a very bad idea
21:34:19 <Sgeo> We might not be able to prove Riemann's hypothesis, but if someone gave us a proof, we could check it
21:34:25 <alise> haven't you read TMoPI? :P
21:34:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "oh, yeah, we really want a garden of eden pattern please"
21:34:40 <alise> that's a proof that not everything is synthesisable
21:34:43 <alise> gardens of eden aren't
21:34:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but the synthesis question doesn't apply to everything
21:36:06 <Sgeo> We'd be unable to answer many questions of things higher than attoscience
21:36:10 <alise> the lightspeed telegraph would totally fuck them up
21:36:13 <alise> "WHY IS THIS POSSIBLY WHYYYY"
21:36:30 <Sgeo> alise, great evidence for our claims
21:37:17 <Sgeo> What of attobombs?
21:37:22 * Sgeo wants to make an attobomb
21:37:36 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Maybe they're naturally stationary, but eventually build ships that allow movement <-- since Life has no relativity, a pattern cannot just be put inside a moving ship to move it. i think they'd at most be using ships as shields against the surroundings while they do the movement themselves. either that or they would use replication in a star trek transportery way
21:37:49 <alise> lightspeed communication is possible in this universe :P
21:38:26 <alise> spacefillers would be fun though
21:38:38 <alise> very fast, too, from their perspective
21:39:11 <alise> But we can manufacture them.
21:39:38 <Sgeo> If they haven't discovered the telegraph yet...
21:39:47 <alise> it'd just look like a black hole to them
21:39:55 <alise> no spaceship of any kind could come back
21:39:57 <alise> except at the edges, i guess
21:40:08 <Sgeo> Are those things synthesizable?
21:40:09 <Phantom_Hoover> It would grow for a while and smash into a glider, then throw off a huge wave of gliders as the agar burns.
21:40:11 <alise> where looking at it would just make you see black too
21:40:14 <alise> except it'd stop expanding
21:40:19 <alise> LOOKING AT THE CORNER would stop it expanding
21:40:23 <alise> as your vision-ship destroys the mechanism
21:40:25 <alise> and doesn't come back
21:40:39 <Sgeo> If it hit someone, could it kill them?
21:40:53 <alise> Sgeo: only if they're very unresilient.
21:41:06 <Sgeo> We don't know how resiliant life is
21:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> It would be destroyed before it got large enough to give off a very large pulse.
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21:41:21 <Sgeo> They may grow up in a universe where there are no stray gliders
21:41:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: they could synthesise a spacefiller by accident
21:41:43 <oerjan> you'd think unresilient life would soon be evolved away
21:41:48 <alise> they could ACTUALLY HAVE an LHC apocalypse
21:41:54 <alise> they collide a bunch of shit
21:42:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i know that
21:42:14 <alise> i meant a non-spacefiller threat
21:42:25 <alise> their lhc could literally produce a killing machine
21:42:49 <Sgeo> Evil madman with attomanufacturing builds seedship that, at some distance, synthesizes spacefiller
21:42:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I assume they wouldn't want to fire massive glider waves.
21:43:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: all in the name of science
21:43:05 <alise> why call it attotech?
21:43:08 <Phantom_Hoover> They'd want to collide single gliders and probe what comes off.
21:43:11 <alise> It's literally what we call nanotech.
21:43:26 <Sgeo> nano is too big
21:43:27 <alise> Our nanotech is bigger than what they'd consider attotech.
21:43:35 <alise> you're both using it to mean different things
21:43:42 <alise> Sgeo is using it to mean what we look at
21:43:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover is using it to mean the size of the people
21:43:53 <alise> life has no protons
21:43:56 <alise> GoL cells are more like atoms
21:44:18 <alise> yes for the lifeforms
21:44:23 <alise> they just won't develop subatomic physics
21:44:25 <alise> because it wouldn't exist
21:44:40 <alise> GoL cells interact in more complex ways than protons, imo
21:44:46 <alise> well ignoring how fucked up protons are in our world
21:45:09 <Sgeo> If we explained b3s23, they might realize how SIMPLE it is
21:45:15 <Sgeo> That might be enough to get them to believe us
21:46:00 <Phantom_Hoover> It'd be their model for particle physics, but not for macroscopic interactions.
21:46:35 <alise> biologists don't use quarks as a model
21:46:40 <Phantom_Hoover> For the same reason we use Newtonian mechanics for most things.
21:48:31 <Sgeo> Suppose we discover that they do accidentally create an LHC-Apocolypse
21:48:34 <Sgeo> Do we intervene?
21:50:00 <alise> it's not likely we could
21:50:06 <alise> we'd be running it so fast that it'd be over in seconds
21:50:16 <alise> since apocalyptic material probably runs at generation-scale
21:50:23 <alise> anyway, i don't think so
21:50:33 <alise> i don't think being the father figure helps
21:50:39 <Sgeo> We could have some software that detects potential patterns
21:50:46 <Sgeo> Pauses it when discovered
21:50:49 <alise> they would be *angry*
21:50:53 <alise> if we have that kind of power, why not give them everything?
21:51:01 <alise> and if we did give them everything, they would lose all purpose in life
21:51:07 <Sgeo> Because we're not smart enough to give them everything
21:51:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I think that if there was a destructive pattern, we'd have noticed it by now.
21:51:17 <alise> they won't die naturally
21:51:22 <alise> so it's already close to paradise
21:51:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Especially, since I have pointed out innumerable times, the LSC collides single spaceships.
21:51:56 <Sgeo> You don't know what drives they have.. probably reproduction, largely
21:52:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: but the Insane Large Spaceship Collider doesn't
21:52:26 <alise> Sgeo: erm, i mean rather higher level drives
21:52:34 <alise> also, evolution wouldn't go normally
21:52:37 <alise> since they *never die without a threat*
21:52:47 <alise> so they'd be evolving against danger, but...
21:52:52 <alise> I don't think they'd have nearly as big a sex drive as us
21:53:01 <alise> but I'm talking about the drive to achieve
21:53:25 <alise> i hate to keep mentioning it but *giving people everything does not make them happy*
21:53:33 <alise> it makes them *extremely bored*
21:53:51 <Sgeo> Give me everything I need to be able to stay on the computer 24/7
21:54:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ...needs to be better than that.
21:54:30 <alise> If it's more intelligent than us, it will be able to grasp why we think this.
21:54:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Relevant: The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect.
21:54:58 <alise> Yes, yes, it has torture-rape in the first chapter; but it's also a very interesting portrait of a post-Singularity scenario gone wrong.
21:55:07 <Sgeo> Gone right, imo
21:55:18 <alise> Sgeo: that just means you are *severely* fucked up.
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21:56:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you should read it.
21:56:44 <alise> http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/
21:56:45 <alise> http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/mopiidx.html
21:58:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, please tell me that wasn't in response to the torture-rape.
21:58:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it almost certainly wasn't.
21:58:47 <alise> (note: it's not actually rape. More a super-kink.)
21:59:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: but it definitely isn't a utopia; anyway, read it, there's no point in me spoiling it all with qualifiers.
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21:59:13 <alise> it's not a terribly long book
21:59:35 <Sgeo> I fail to see how it isn't a utopia
21:59:47 <alise> Sgeo: again, this only points at you having serious, serious issues.
22:00:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: also, FWIW, the tone changes significantly in chapter 2.
22:00:06 <alise> (this doesn't mean that chapter 1 isn't a necessary part of the plot)
22:00:38 <Phantom_Hoover> The Culture isn't post-Singularity in the strictest sense, is it?
22:00:53 <alise> i haven't read it, but i don't think so
22:01:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. the Minds are extremely advanced, but still comprehensible.
22:01:08 <alise> it is probably a lot more healthy than post-TMoPI-Change.
22:01:13 <alise> anyway, read the damn novel.
22:01:17 <alise> and thanks for the spoiler :P
22:03:01 * Sgeo wonders what a non-atto bomb would be like
22:03:11 <Sgeo> Besides boring
22:03:17 <alise> Sgeo: destructive.
22:03:20 <Vorpal> <alise> it makes them *extremely bored* <-- except when "everything" includes various flash games :P
22:03:40 <alise> true, dot action 2 forever plus an irc server would be a pretty good afterlife
22:03:51 <alise> just your vision with those two, you can only show one or the other or show both split-screened
22:03:56 <alise> and all you can feel is a keyboard
22:03:58 <alise> i'd sign up for that
22:04:09 <Vorpal> <alise> Yes, yes, it has torture-rape in the first chapter; but it's also a very interesting portrait of a post-Singularity scenario gone wrong. <-- what book/film/whatever?
22:04:20 <alise> http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/
22:04:21 <alise> http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/mopiidx.html
22:04:27 <alise> you can buy a dead tree version, but *eh*
22:04:28 <Vorpal> I shall avoid reading it then
22:04:28 <zzo38> How many guys wants to win a big spider by playing solitaire card?
22:04:40 <alise> Vorpal: it's not unintellectual or anything.
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22:10:32 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:10:42 <Sgeo> I was pondering if they'd ever detect exotic spaceships from space
22:10:48 <Sgeo> (in the random soup universe)
22:11:05 <Sgeo> But such things would come about so rarely, and would tend to be destroyed on their way...
22:11:18 <alise> random soup universe would be unlikely to get life any time soon :P
22:12:06 <Sgeo> Could they invent writing? What would it look like
22:12:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, remember what I said a while ago about advertisement to mates?
22:13:24 <alise> <Sgeo> Could they invent writing? What would it look like
22:13:29 <alise> stuff that does stuff to vision gliders.
22:13:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not impossible that making exotic ships would be used to advertise that a Lifeform had very good synthesis organs.
22:13:42 <alise> or if we have a sun model, stuff that does stuff to the light-ships
22:13:51 <alise> lawl, synthesis organs
22:13:56 <alise> "Wanna synthesise, baby?"
22:14:01 * Sgeo was thinking more about natural exotic spaceships
22:14:11 <Sgeo> To help them work out more of the laws of physics
22:14:25 <alise> why am I reading TMoPI again...
22:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, well, they might get the occasional exotic from space.
22:15:29 <Sgeo> But how rarely would exotics even form in space? And survive to hit the area where life is
22:15:50 <alise> unless we start from a big bang scenario,
22:15:58 <alise> it is unlikely that there will be anything interesting in space.
22:16:01 <alise> haha imagine being the space agency
22:16:06 <alise> "Now... we will venture into the blackness."
22:16:11 <alise> "We went there. It's black."
22:16:21 <Sgeo> It's a solution to overcrowding!
22:16:56 <Sgeo> In a soup scenario, there may be valuable attotechnology in space
22:17:03 <Sgeo> Discovering it would be a challenge though
22:17:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Try slinging a glider at the Turing Machine in Golly's collection.
22:17:47 <alise> <Sgeo> In a soup scenario, there may be valuable attotechnology in space
22:17:52 <alise> like abraham lincoln's head, too.
22:17:56 <alise> will never be found.
22:17:59 <alise> well, okay, could be found
22:18:03 <alise> but i think they'd get bored after a while
22:18:41 <Sgeo> Are you saying it would be destroyed quickly?
22:18:41 <alise> If we just fill infinite space with true randomness, the utopian civilisation exists somewhere, right from the start. :)
22:18:52 <alise> Sgeo: no, i'm saying getting ahold of it would take a journey
22:18:54 <alise> and a journey would take too long
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22:19:12 <Sgeo> And they'd have no way of knowing where to journey to
22:19:17 <Sgeo> (Unless we told them >.>)
22:19:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, that census doesn't actually *have* any spaceships outside of the glider and main series.
22:19:49 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/soup/img/obj73851.png long integral, also known as "S"
22:19:55 <alise> (long integral that is)
22:20:18 <alise> i think Sgeo just has a really strong desire to play god and curse poor sentient beings with his warped version of paradise
22:20:49 <Sgeo> I'm not giving them paradise. I don't know enough of their science
22:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, averting the apocalypse would be worthwhile since we don't want to lose the whole simulation.
22:22:11 <Sgeo> apocalpyse-detection heuristics!
22:22:40 <alise> i'm pretty sure they have nothing like an atomic bomb
22:22:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, did you know that Gosper guns can be chained?
22:22:45 <alise> cells are too weak and unstable
22:22:55 <alise> either it's big and slow enough for them to disarm it, or it's harmless
22:22:59 <Sgeo> If a number of lifeforms started dying in a circular fashion...
22:23:25 <Sgeo> in b36s23 the replicator...
22:23:58 <Phantom_Hoover> So you can pretty easily get an arbitrarily large number of p30 columns very closely spaced.
22:23:58 <Sgeo> Would probably be formed soon enough to prevent intelligent life from forming
22:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> If it hits something, it would be... very destructive.
22:24:39 <Sgeo> The replicator, or the chained Gosper guns?
22:24:57 <zzo38> You won't believe the creativity of a student in a test situation. For example, one of the abbreviations was "fax," which *really* stands for "facsimile." However, various Comp 4'ers said it stood for:
22:25:03 <zzo38> - Fiber-optic Aided Xeroxing
22:25:08 <zzo38> - Frequency Automatic X-rays
22:25:12 <zzo38> - Fast A** Xeroxing
22:25:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: heh, imagine whoever discovers that
22:25:52 <alise> I am become Death, destroyer of cells.
22:26:25 <alise> "An incredibly unstable construction... but a deadly one."
22:26:35 <Phantom_Hoover> The reactions when they hit things tend to fling gliders back up the stream.
22:26:40 <Sgeo> Evil madman takes a ship into space. Evil madmen makes the Chained Gosper device
22:27:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's weird how resilient the organisms would be.
22:27:19 <alise> Because microscopic particles are so damn *weak*.
22:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way that their vision and weapons both use the same mechanism.
22:28:17 <alise> We need to start a website about this stuff.
22:28:21 <alise> It's deeply interesting.
22:28:48 <alise> if we could communicate with them and tell them about general relativity and quantum mechanics
22:28:51 <alise> they'd laugh their asses off
22:28:54 <alise> "Wow, your universe is retarded."
22:29:37 <alise> bah, it's more interesting than a few pages
22:30:10 <alise> i was thinking a separate mini-site/wiki :P
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22:31:05 <Sgeo> But we have COLORS
22:31:10 <Sgeo> We have RAINBOWS
22:31:29 <Sgeo> Although, they might have weird.. things
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22:31:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: perhaps
22:31:43 <alise> can easily have a little wiki/blog combo
22:31:53 <alise> it's not so deeply interesting as to be regularly updated, but
22:33:01 <Sgeo> On their own, what models would they come up with for the creation of the Universe?
22:33:15 <alise> who says they will
22:33:26 <Sgeo> I mean, from a scientific standpoint, not from whatever ideas they evolve with
22:33:26 <alise> remember, they live forever!
22:33:34 <alise> i have a feeling religion would be a lot less prominent
22:33:46 <alise> Sgeo: probably nothing
22:33:49 <alise> in a sense we didn't create anything
22:33:52 <Sgeo> In practice, they're not going to live forever unless they develop a morality involving not killing eachother
22:33:52 <alise> we started at a given state
22:33:58 <alise> almost certainly a state with predecessors
22:34:02 <alise> and we started simulating
22:34:09 <alise> there's no first point in time
22:34:14 <alise> since you can extend it back to any predecessor
22:34:22 <alise> Sgeo: there's no competition for resources, really
22:34:35 <Sgeo> Competition for space
22:34:40 <alise> (relating to this "no-creation" thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis)
22:34:44 <alise> Sgeo: there's infinite space.
22:34:45 <alise> what's the problem?
22:35:04 <Sgeo> But given a finite amount of time, only a small amount of space is accessible
22:35:08 <alise> and there's no reason that they can't fuck one after another
22:35:15 <alise> they aren't humans :P
22:35:28 <alise> Sgeo: given a finite amount of time, an arbitrary amount of space is accessible.
22:35:34 <Sgeo> So where's the evolutionary pressure?
22:35:55 <alise> there's very little.
22:35:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you talk some more.
22:36:10 <alise> Sgeo: it is likely we would have to populate space with evil killers.
22:36:12 <Sgeo> So they won't ever actually evolve intelligence without divine intervention?
22:36:17 <alise> to give them an evolutionary sex drive
22:36:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's unlikely
22:36:46 <Sgeo> Different sections of space could have different laws of physics!
22:36:49 <Sgeo> Drive everyone mad!
22:37:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: destroy them
22:37:19 <alise> also, dying is unlikely
22:37:30 <Sgeo> Of a certain size of cells
22:37:33 <alise> i do think the best idea is to put a lot of threats in
22:37:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: how
22:37:37 <Sgeo> Sectors are given rules randomly
22:38:43 <zzo38> If there is infinite space with superluminal travel, there is no need for anyone to ever be dead or eat anything anymore. Game of Life satisfies the first, but not the second.
22:38:46 <Sgeo> Evil killers that can only be killed with attotechnology
22:39:48 <Phantom_Hoover> The independent power supply thing is interesting, though.
22:40:02 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise, by firing a high-speed glider assault?
22:40:04 <zzo38> The idea is how to figure out how to make killers non-evil somehow..... it requires a use of relative morality depending on circumstances and the universe model, and even more confusing things.....
22:40:06 <alise> why would they evolve such killing mechanisms?
22:40:09 <alise> they have nothing to fight over
22:40:16 <alise> (they don't have to fight over space unless there's corpses)
22:40:23 <alise> (and if there aren't any threats, there is no death, and thus no corpses)
22:40:31 <alise> of course, this means they'll basically *never* adapt to anything
22:40:38 <alise> which is why i think you'd have to put a bunch of natural threats
22:40:44 <alise> bastards guns that fire huge columns rapidly
22:40:47 <alise> just to force evolution to happen
22:41:04 <zzo38> Of course, you could somehow do fake superluminal travel, maybe
22:41:09 <alise> (unless you start from a big bang scenario and let threats evolve, but seriously, even with seriously dilated time nobody's that patient!)
22:41:12 <Sgeo> if it's a simple gun, could they learn to survive?
22:41:17 <zzo38> By slowing everything
22:43:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: basically, an utterly chaotic initial configuration
22:43:21 <alise> and you hope it goes just right and ends up with little planets with nice aliens on them
22:43:36 <alise> this is not only incredibly unlikely with the fragility and tendency to form still life that atomic-level Life has,
22:43:37 <Sgeo> If space truly is infinite, no need to hope
22:43:40 <alise> but it is also really boring.
22:43:47 <alise> Sgeo: repeating pattern, Q.E.D.
22:43:51 <alise> probability 1 != has happened
22:43:56 <alise> sure, ok, it *has* happened
22:44:07 <alise> but technically, you could get a repeating pattern generated totally randomly across infinite space :)
22:44:19 <alise> here's a *REALLY* interesting thought experiment:
22:44:34 <alise> Imagine an infinite CA space.
22:44:49 <alise> Imagine that we have filled it lazily -- i.e. not computed until we look at that place -- with randomness.
22:45:03 <alise> This randomness is the kind that has produced civilisations everywhere (just not where we're looking).
22:45:12 <alise> Somehow, we have an algorithm that can simulate one part of space and keep the rest consistent,
22:45:19 <alise> so that if we looked at another part, we'd get what the state would be at this generation.
22:45:26 <alise> Now suppose we point our camera at somewhere without civilisations.
22:45:38 <alise> If we kept looking back at a civilisation, we'd see it develop, people live, etc.; "shit happening".
22:45:47 <alise> Then we could look away, and if we look back again, it'd be the same as if we didn't look away.
22:45:55 <alise> But *they are not computed* while we are looking away.
22:46:05 <alise> Are they still conscious and alive in these periods?
22:46:21 <Sgeo> No. They have false memories implanted.
22:46:26 <alise> that's metaphysical
22:46:29 <Sgeo> Arguably false
22:46:37 <alise> consciousness is a byproduct of thinking. yes?
22:46:51 <alise> otherwise you're saying it's a metaphysical entity
22:46:57 <alise> which i don't think you want to say
22:47:12 <alise> now, the snapshots we take are exactly identical whether our computer runs it or not
22:47:22 <alise> therefore, the computation is still "done"
22:47:24 <alise> the results are viewable
22:47:27 <alise> it's just not actually computed on our machines
22:47:35 <alise> therefore, they are actually conscious *despite us not computing them at all*
22:47:37 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis
22:48:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ex-fucking-actly.
22:48:59 <alise> And this is *so fucking cool*.
22:49:14 <alise> It actually *manages to legitimatise some form of Platonism*.
22:49:52 <alise> Say you simulate a universe on a computer. Obviously this is just repeated application of a function of some sort. You're not doing anything unique. The initial state, and the answer to each successive application of the function, is a fact, whether you compute it or not.
22:49:57 <alise> Therefore: what does it matter if you compute it or not?
22:50:04 <alise> Your computation isn't "privileged"; it doesn't GIVE an answer.
22:50:08 <alise> The answer is already there.
22:50:15 <alise> You have made a camera. But you have not created a universe.
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22:50:24 <alise> Whether you simulate it or not, the fact that the function has answers means *the universe already exists*.
22:50:33 <alise> Of course this is all unprovable philosophical twaddle.
22:50:37 <alise> But it's also beautiful.
22:50:58 <alise> It's like the simulation argument, except you say "why the fuck do we need to be simulated at all?".
22:51:08 <Sgeo> Does this also imply that all self-consistent fiction is true?
22:51:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:51:27 <alise> Not true in our universe, but... in a way, yes.
22:51:36 <alise> The way I interpret it is closer to "*we* aren't even really 'true'".
22:51:50 <alise> If we're just Platonic, not-actually-changing mathematical structures...
22:52:04 <alise> Then although that function is a "fact" about time in that structure,
22:52:09 <alise> We're not really "real" at all.
22:52:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: See you.
22:52:22 <Sgeo> We're real relative to us
22:52:39 <Sgeo> Bye Phantom_Hoover
22:52:40 <alise> Sexyloop[11] (2007): Sexyloop is a modification of Evoloop in which collisions often result in transfer of genetic material between loops. This increases diversity in evolution of new species of loops.
22:52:44 <alise> Evoloop[9] (1999): An extension of the SDSR loop, Evoloop is capable of interaction with neighboring loops as well as of evolution. Often, the greatest selection pressure in a colony of Evoloops is the competition for space, and natural selection favors the smallest functional loop present. Further studies demonstrated more complexity than originally thought in the Evoloop system.[10]
22:52:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Bye. ^^^ ZOMGZ
22:52:54 <alise> Competition for space.
22:53:01 <alise> You're fucking right.
22:53:13 <Phantom_Hoover> (Sexyloop is annoying, since I can't find the spec for it.
22:53:32 <Sgeo> Now, to make enemies to increase pressure for intelligence
22:53:42 <Ilari> If infinite 2D space with 2-state cells is filled randomly and then Game of life rules are appiled to it, what happens?
22:53:46 <Sgeo> Wait, that's not neede
22:54:33 <Ilari> It would not contain all possible subconfigurations...
22:55:43 <Ilari> Because there would be beth-zero cells and GOL has beth-one configurations...
22:56:29 <alise> Ilari: 2-state cells?
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22:56:44 <Sgeo> Life that's resistant to common space debris might not necessarily be able to survive exotic ships if one happens to hit
22:56:51 <alise> Ilari: stack an infinite number of random universes on top of each other :P
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22:57:12 <Ilari> alise: Not enough unless number of universes is at least beth-one.
22:57:24 <Ilari> Since beth-zero + beth-zero = beth-zero.
22:57:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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22:58:01 <alise> Ilari: true, it'd be beth-zero^2
22:58:22 <Ilari> Actually, beth-zero * beth-zero = beth-zero.
22:58:36 <Sgeo> Suppose a spacefiller does happen to be nearby
22:58:43 <Sgeo> It degrades due to debris
22:58:54 <Sgeo> But couldn't that flood the area with gliders?
22:59:06 <Ilari> Here's fun one. Aleph-two * beth-one.
22:59:22 <Sgeo> What's gimel-zero?
22:59:28 <Ilari> Does that equal aleph two or beth one? :-)
23:00:46 <Ilari> I think the answer is that its independent of ZFC.
23:01:55 <Ilari> It would be fun if P=NP? was shown to be independent in turing machine model.
23:02:52 <Sgeo> In an infinite soup, surely gliders would continue to hit a given space
23:03:10 <Sgeo> But would lessen in intensive, as gliders from further away end up hitting more debris along the way
23:05:56 <Ilari> What are CA rules with two slashes in them (in golly)?
23:15:24 <Sgeo> They'd have their own cosmic background radiation
23:16:22 <zzo38> Does gimel-zero mean something?
23:18:40 <ais523> ooh, same spam again from a different From address, this time with the subject "HTML !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
23:19:15 <Sgeo> zzo38, well, aleph and beth are letters of the Hewbrew alphabet
23:19:36 <Gregor> ais523: Can'tcha just FEEL the HTML?
23:19:55 <oerjan> Ilari: Aleph-two * beth-one = Aleph-two + beth-one = max(Aleph-two, beth-one) but beth-one can be almost any aleph
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23:20:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: I know that aleph and beth and gimel are letters of the Hebrew alphabet
23:20:52 <oerjan> if a gimel sequence exists, it's far more obscure than the others
23:20:57 <zzo38> That still doesn't tell me what gimel is used for in mathematics
23:21:17 <Sgeo> Well, what's the difference between aleph-zero and beth-zero?
23:21:26 <Sgeo> Or aleph-N and beth-N in general?
23:21:32 <Sgeo> Extrapolate, you've got gimel-N
23:21:38 <oerjan> aleph-zero = beth-zero but from there the definitions are different
23:21:56 <zzo38> Sgeo: I think there is no difference between aleph-zero and beth-zero? But I don't know how aleph-N and beth-N will differ.
23:22:13 <zzo38> The continuum hypothesis means that aleph and beth might be the same, I think?
23:22:20 <oerjan> aleph-N is the Nth infinite well-orderable cardinal
23:22:26 <zzo38> But maybe not? There is no way to tell if it is same or not?
23:22:44 <oerjan> beth-(N+1) = 2^beth-N, and limits go to limits
23:23:11 <oerjan> the generalized continuum hypothesis says aleph-N = beth-N for all ordinals N
23:23:29 <oerjan> (with axiom of choice, every cardinal is an aleph)
23:24:10 <oerjan> however there are models of ZFC where the beths can be chosen _very_ freely among the alephs
23:25:11 <oerjan> there are some restrictions which i don't remember, but i think e.g. beth-one can be aleph-one, aleph-two, aleph-three and possibly any aleph
23:25:52 <zzo38> Is there a restriction that if beth-one is aleph-five, then beth-two cannot be aleph-four?
23:25:53 <oerjan> i do not recall ever seeing a definition for gimel-N
23:26:10 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, both sequences are increasing
23:26:33 <zzo38> oerjan: I have not seen a definition like that either
23:26:57 <oerjan> beth-omega must be the limit of the lower beths, so that's not free to choose
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23:30:07 <Ilari> Is there model where beth one equals aleph two but beth two equals aleph three?
23:30:24 <zzo38> Ilari: That was going to be my next question, too.
23:31:33 <Sgeo> Life might not be immortal: It might evolve to depend on the cosmic background radiation
23:31:49 <oerjan> i _think_ but i'm trying to find some definite statement
23:31:52 <Ilari> Actually, probably not as it would imply that two sets of different size would have power set of same size...
23:32:02 <Sgeo> Which _will_, eventually, die down. Not come to a halt, but come at lower levels than life needs for sustainability
23:32:28 <zzo38> I design a font where the character in position 'n' is the representation of '\n'
23:32:45 <oerjan> oh aleph-two and aleph-one
23:32:58 <zzo38> And so on for all of the other lowercase letters except 'x'
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23:35:23 <Ilari> Obiviously set having more elements has at least as large power set. Thus powerset of aleph one would be at least as large as powerset of aleph zero (which is aleph two in this case) but no larger than powerset of aleph two (which would happen to be aleph three). There's nothing in between, so the powerset would have to equal one or other in size.
23:36:26 <oerjan> "A recent result of Carmi Merimovich shows that, for each n>=1, it is consistent with ZFC that for each k, 2^k is the nth successor of k."
23:36:47 <zzo38> Do you think such a definition as this is useful in TeX? \def\defnoexpand#1{\def#1{\noexpand#1\noexpand}}
23:37:29 <oerjan> that means you can have beth-one = aleph-two and beth-two = aleph-four, at least
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23:40:42 <Sgeo> What would be even more WTF to them: Knightship movement
23:40:50 <Ilari> Assuming that powerset of A is strictly larger than powerset of B if A is strictly larger than B, then there must be at least as many cardinailities between two consequtive beths as there was between previous beths...
23:41:41 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_hypothesis#The_generalized_continuum_hypothesis
23:43:22 <zzo38> But I would like some suggestions how the representation of '\n' '\r' '\e' and so on should be drawn
23:43:40 <oerjan> Ilari: hm i don't think any of the examples in that section violate your hypothesis
23:44:07 <oerjan> otoh i would not bet on it being true
23:45:06 <Ilari> Actually, Hmm... that page has formula that says that strictly larger set can have equally sized powerset...
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23:46:41 <oerjan> oh the second last inequality in that section? i guess that sort of implies it's not _known_ to be impossible, at least
23:47:27 <oerjan> on the assumption that inequality was added by someone who knew, at least - this _is_ wikipedia after all
23:49:14 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easton%27s_theorem
23:49:45 <oerjan> that's what i vaguely must have remembered when saying there were some restrictions
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23:52:43 <oerjan> aleph_omega is the first non-regular infinite cardinal, says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_cardinal
23:52:44 <Ilari> Two sets that are not isomorphic but have isomorphic powersets is somewhat mind-bending...
23:53:46 <Ilari> Obiviously those can't exist unless GCH is false...
23:55:18 <oerjan> i _think_ easton's theorem applies to the beth-one = aleph-two, beth-two = aleph-three case
23:56:45 <oerjan> we want G(0) = 2, G(2) = 3
00:06:55 <Sgeo> Assuming that evolution continues, as cosmic background radiation decreases, they may evolve to need less, or perhaps no, food
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00:19:28 <alise> oerjan: is "vrinsk" really your "neigh"
00:19:36 <alise> if so i have news for you, horses don't talk like that
00:20:45 <oerjan> well it's a verb, i'm not sure it's supposed to onomatopoetic
00:21:33 <oerjan> well and a verbal noun
00:21:35 <Sgeo> alise, comment on my thoughts on cosmic background radiation
00:21:56 <oerjan> "6 Noises Foreign Languages Suck At" :D
00:22:16 <Sgeo> But would lessen in intensive, as gliders from further away end up hitting more debris along the way
00:22:25 <Sgeo> They'd have their own cosmic background radiation
00:22:25 <alise> Sgeo: define cosmic background radiation
00:22:27 <alise> from what initial state?
00:22:29 <oerjan> alise: were you reading that cracked article? :D
00:22:44 <alise> oerjan: someone mentioned it because they read the article, now i am reading the cracked article
00:22:50 <Sgeo> Life might not be immortal: It might evolve to depend on the cosmic background radiation
00:22:51 <alise> article is a bit much of a word for cracked :P
00:22:54 <Sgeo> But would lessen in intensive, as gliders from further away end up hitting more debris along the way
00:23:00 <alise> Sgeo: "lesson in intensive"
00:23:03 <Sgeo> Um, I think I'm repeating them out of order
00:23:54 <Sgeo> But so yeah, if life depends on the background radiation, which lessens... but if life continues to evolve, it may evolve to need less and less
00:28:18 <alise> you guys are terrible
00:29:23 <alise> [[What the hell kind of monster chickens do you have that are capable of a hard "G" sound?]]
00:31:55 <oerjan> (norwegian cocks weren't mentioned i think but they say "kykkeliky")
00:33:15 <alise> norwegian cocks hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ahem anyway
00:33:21 <alise> oerjan: it had "GHOO" in it
00:33:23 <oerjan> i'd like to point out that even if the english versions are not as funny, they're not really closer to the _real_ sounds
00:33:23 <alise> one of the languages
00:33:40 <alise> neigh is fucking closer than vrinsk :P
00:33:44 <oerjan> alise: er armenian was mentioned?
00:33:48 <alise> creak is closer than the other ones there
00:34:15 <oerjan> was that the floorboard thing? ("knirk")
00:35:07 <alise> the german one of that
00:35:31 <oerjan> i guess norwegian is intermediate there :D
00:36:44 <oerjan> oh and armenian has this weird dialect variation, kh in one dialect is g in the other, so those may be sound changes
00:37:57 * oerjan was looking up the only armenian song he knows once, it's either "kharoun kharoun" or "garun garun", dependently
00:39:03 <oerjan> (the ou/u thing may be more about transcription)
00:44:07 <alise> "Some programs in the archive have no associated copyright/license information.
00:44:07 <alise> In general, we assume that authors of these programs don't care how the
00:44:07 <alise> esolang community shares their programs, unless they've said otherwise, but it
00:44:07 <alise> would still be better to keep this clear."
00:44:14 <alise> hm, precedence for the wiki?
00:44:19 <alise> illegal precedence, but from the mouth of god nontheless
00:44:37 <alise> [[Of course, you are free to say "Hey, you jerks, stop distributing my
00:44:37 <alise> program!" Although that would be regrettable, such requests will be honored.]]
00:44:44 <alise> we've been more strict about public domain than graue intended, it seems
00:45:14 <oerjan> the wiki and archive are clearly separate
00:45:42 <alise> i'd say quoting a program on the wiki is less serious than archiving it
00:45:43 <oerjan> there is no requirement that things in the archive be public domain afaik
00:45:45 <ais523> you can't go around publishing non-PD things with a big "this is PD" notice
00:45:46 <alise> and so the policy should trickle down
00:45:48 <ais523> even if they're something like BSD
00:45:49 <alise> ais523: well, true
00:48:01 <Sgeo> Should I donate PSOX to the public domain?
00:49:14 <ais523> I doubt it'll make any difference whether you do or not
00:54:21 <alise> `addquote <Sgeo> Should I donate PSOX to the public domain? <ais523> I doubt it'll make any difference whether you do or not
00:54:25 <nooga> even less practical than plan9
00:54:27 <alise> Let this be its eulogy and never be spoken of again.
00:54:33 <alise> minix is mostly standard unix
00:54:40 <alise> and its standard shell, ash, is used in quite a lot of minimal linux things
00:54:45 <alise> it's hardly less practical than plan 9
00:54:51 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/Minix_3.png
00:54:54 <ais523> not to mention, dash is an ash variant
00:55:20 <nooga> that screenshot confirms impracticalness
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00:55:31 <alise> it probably runs gnome
00:55:40 <alise> if it runs X.org, twm, xv...
00:55:45 <alise> you have a stupid definition of impractical
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00:55:52 <alise> it may not be ubuntu, but it's very standard posix
00:55:56 <nooga> i doubt that it runs gnome
00:56:01 <nooga> maybe some old gnome
00:56:01 <alise> why do you doubt that?
00:56:05 <alise> kde fucking runs on windows
00:56:14 <alise> minix has a standard POSIX library set
00:56:22 <alise> of course it'll run gnome
00:56:26 <nooga> because that's kde
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00:57:47 <nooga> google "gnome on minix"
00:58:04 <alise> you do realise gnome isn't even remotely linux specific
00:58:06 <alise> GNOME runs on HERD
00:58:16 <alise> Minix is more conventional, and has better support for things, than Hurd
00:58:49 <nooga> i realise that gnome isn't linux specific
00:58:56 <alise> you have a warped conception of minix
00:59:08 <nooga> but there are some very certain problems with installing it on minix
00:59:36 <nooga> incompatible thingys and stuff (;D)
01:00:41 <pikhq> nooga: Someone's ignorant of Minix 3.
01:01:28 <nooga> then it's worse than p9
01:01:34 <ais523> alise: well, KDE runs on Windows, which is even more noticeable
01:01:37 <ais523> at least to some extent
01:01:57 <alise> ais523: i said that :P
01:02:06 <alise> nooga: hurd has no libs either
01:02:19 <ais523> towards the top of my current screen of scrollback, though
01:02:23 <ais523> and I didn't think of checking that far up
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01:03:48 <pikhq> alise: It's got Glibc.
01:04:39 <nooga> i think i will try to code another os
01:04:55 <nooga> my previous 2 kernels were based on linux 0.1
01:05:25 <nooga> it's hard to start with no code
01:05:26 <alise> well i am going to make many
01:05:29 <alise> as part of #mitosis
01:05:31 <alise> nooga: read a tutorial
01:05:41 <alise> osdev.org, osdever.net
01:05:54 <alise> http://www.osdever.net/tutorials/index
01:05:58 <alise> and the osdev wiki/forum
01:06:06 <nooga> i was trying to run ruby interpreter on bare metal
01:06:14 <nooga> and then write the rest in ruby
01:06:23 <alise> at least do a lisp, for god's sake man
01:06:27 * Sgeo is fantasizing about two civilizations fighting it out
01:06:55 <nooga> i could write basic lisp interpreter in asm
01:07:10 <Sgeo> Well, more like ships produced by one of them is toxic to the other, but I warn the other, so some refugees leave, and in retaliation, build chained Gosing guns
01:07:22 <alise> Sgeo: god fantasies are not healthy.
01:07:41 <alise> also, it's sick to let fighting and the like happen and then just take sides if you're fucking *God*
01:07:53 <pikhq> I'd say the hardest thing is getting paging & multitasking actually *working*.
01:08:06 <Sgeo> The most I did was try to warn one side of the upcoming catastrophy
01:08:12 <Sgeo> I didn't build the guns myself
01:08:20 <pikhq> That is, for getting a reasonably functioning kernel, not getting an extremely good one.
01:08:45 <pikhq> And the second hardest thing is dealing with the BS that is x86.
01:09:07 <nooga> paging is a bit complicated
01:09:29 <nooga> hw mm can be confusing
01:09:51 <nooga> multitasking is not a big problem though
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01:10:21 <nooga> the most stupid thing is that the fork function is much easier to write than exec
01:10:23 <pikhq> Okay, wrap that into the second hardest thing there. :P
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01:13:18 <Gregor> alise: FYI, attempting to upgrade 3.51 -> 4.0 results in the same error as before.
01:34:29 * Sgeo has homework he's been neglecting
01:34:41 <alise> Gregor: what error? just freezing?
01:34:58 <alise> Gregor: upgrade it with file copies >:)
01:35:10 <Gregor> I half-considered doing that :P
01:40:16 <Sgeo> http://twistedphysics.typepad.com/cocktail_party_physics/2010/09/im-mad-as-hell.html
01:40:29 <Sgeo> I surrender to the stupidity that has overtaken my country.
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01:59:52 <alise> Gregor: we could use the exact version they did :)
02:00:02 <alise> Gregor: qemu version i mean
02:00:03 <alise> pikhq: I blame you, btw.
02:00:20 <alise> Gregor: what about using the workstation version?
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02:01:14 <Gregor> I've tried using the ISO that the original post you sent had, I think that was WS.
02:02:25 <alise> with the precise version?
02:02:32 <alise> can you link me to the wiki page again?
02:02:40 <Gregor> I got one step farther than I have before.
02:03:15 <Gregor> http://hpoussineau.free.fr/qemu/qemu-system-mips64el-3.zip <-- alise: This is NOT the QEmu version he linked to, but it's NEXT to the QEmu version he linked to, and it's horribly slow, and it seems to be working more.
02:03:44 <alise> I am the science officer
02:04:03 <Gregor> YOU LOSE I ALREADY AM SO HA
02:04:36 <Sgeo> Hmm, in a random soup, most of the universe would be a cloud of blocks and blinkers, right?
02:04:44 <Sgeo> So life will have to be ok with that
02:04:54 <Sgeo> Life might not be amenable to dead areas
02:05:14 <Sgeo> Isn't there a general name for blinkers and blocks?
02:05:21 <alise> Gregor: You sure do make providing you with materials a rewarding experience
02:05:48 <Gregor> alise: Dood I FOUND THE C++ COMPILER (and although I didn't link it directly to you I gave you sufficient clues to find it)
02:06:08 <alise> I netcatted you the freaking iso and found the wiki page
02:06:10 <alise> You can't top that :P
02:07:45 <alise> Gregor: Why does it hang at loading the setup?
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02:08:48 <Gregor> alise: Like I said, it's REALLY slow.
02:08:54 <alise> fast enough for me
02:09:14 <Gregor> And yet you were wondering why it "hangs" :P
02:10:45 <Sgeo> What's the term that means either a blinker or a block?
02:10:48 <alise> Gregor: that was just a bug
02:11:00 <alise> Gregor: I'm on to the bit of setup that usually hangs, ha
02:11:06 <alise> Can't catch me, I'm the gingerbread man
02:11:11 <alise> Gregor: Wow, it *does* get the colours wrong.
02:11:21 <alise> Gregor: Thankfully we can use the usual emulator after this.
02:11:38 <alise> It's 2:11 am; I have to be up at 9 am. Fun.
02:12:05 <alise> Gregor: give me a fucking product key
02:12:09 <Sgeo> Gregor, do you know?
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02:14:16 <Sgeo> Gmail is acting weird :(
02:16:59 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:BitBitJump
02:17:04 <alise> Oleg's stupidity here makes me groan.
02:17:07 <Sgeo> Wait, only low density soups result in blonks?
02:25:55 <pikhq> Must be a different Oleg.
02:26:03 <alise> pikhq: It's the mazonka.com guy.
02:26:11 <alise> Being really stupid about what Turing-completeness is for some reason.
02:26:14 <lament> yeah i was worried enough that i had to go check the link
02:26:20 <alise> Also, can I just say that r.e.s. is the coolest person on the entire wiki?
02:26:42 <alise> if Oleg turned out to be a drooling retard we'd all just shoot ourselves
02:26:44 <alise> nothing is sacred any more
02:27:14 <pikhq> If the Oleg turned out to be a drooling retard I'd attempt to destroy all life.
02:27:15 <lament> i attended an oleg talk once
02:27:32 <alise> pikhq: I'd destroy all life in the type system.
02:27:40 <alise> "I attended an Oleg talk once in the type system."
02:27:44 <lament> the first five slides or so convinced everybody that there's a simple problem with a simple solution (i don't really remember what the problem was)
02:28:00 <lament> everyone was like, oh, i understand this
02:28:16 <lament> then he started presenting the solution and lost everyone in the audience
02:28:43 <pikhq> Smarter than you, I guarantee.
02:30:10 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/8kftu.png Looks like regular old Windows NT Server 4.0 right? WRONG. This is Windows NT Server 4.0's *MIPS VERSION* FUCK YEAH
02:32:44 <alise> http://imgur.com/qnAD4.png
02:32:49 <alise> GREGOR: WORST PERSON IN THE UNIVERSE
02:33:02 <alise> CAN'T EVEN FUCKING GET NT 4 RUNNING BECAUSE HIS WINE IS TOO PUSSY TO EMULATE AN OLD VERSION OF QEMU FAST ENOUGH TO INSTALL IT BEFORE I DO
02:39:40 <pikhq> By law, schools in the US must improve every year or risk being shut down.
02:40:38 <alise> "But every four year old is writing papers showing errors in the latest quantum physics papers, and developing alternate, less flawed theories!"
02:40:54 <pikhq> Clearly we should shut down the awful school that's in the 99th percentile, and send the students to the much better school that went from 50% proficiency to 55% proficiency.
02:41:00 <pikhq> This is actually happening.
02:41:18 <alise> I will now install Visual C++ 2.0 on NT Server 4.0 for MIPS.
02:41:22 <alise> Because I'm just that fucking awesome.
02:42:19 <alise> "To reply to your latest request concerning your questions 1-3: they are all incoherent, as I already stated, because they do not refer to a well-defined concept of computability or computational power."
02:42:20 <alise> "If you do not answer the questions I asked at (Oleg 22:27, 15 September 2009) in yes/no form, I consider that as chickening, or mocking at me. In both cases no dialog is possible."
02:42:42 <alise> all russians are stupid! especially lament
02:43:04 <pikhq> This, BTW, is the result of a bill that Bush advocated, called "No Child Left Behind".
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02:58:24 <alise> [[The article refers to a bbj self-interpreter, which would be a single bbj program capable of interpreting all bbj programs. Excuse my scepticism, but I suspect that you are misusing the terminology, and that you have no such bbj self-interpreter. If you do have one, it could be neatly displayed by simply stating its wordsize and showing the program as a list of integers. For the benefit of those who don't wish to master your assembly language (which evid
02:58:24 <alise> ently does not produce bbj programs anyway), would you please post the self-interpreter here as such a list, or provide a link? It would be interesting to compare it to, say, Clive Gifford's subleq self-interpreter, which is a true OISC self-interpreter comprising a sequence of fewer than 120 integers. --r.e.s. (Talk) 11:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)]]
02:58:30 <alise> i love how mocking his dryness is
03:00:38 <alise> pikhq: I now have VC++ 2.0.
03:02:03 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/K4Xv0.png
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04:04:12 <Sgeo> Dammit, why am I out of disk space
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04:46:22 <Sgeo> I had to delete Factor
04:46:25 <Sgeo> I am going to cry
04:59:55 <lament> you know what's really awesome, the zeppelin knot
05:00:09 <lament> what's more, it's nearly unknown despite being so awesome
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05:07:30 <Sgeo> If there is a cloud of blonks, then my story doesn't work
05:07:45 <Sgeo> The guns' gliders would not make it to the civilization
05:07:59 <Sgeo> Well, maybe eventually it would clear a path. Doubt it though
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06:06:08 <Sgeo> Someone should do that experiment
06:06:29 <Sgeo> Chained Gospers vs cloud of blonks
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06:15:30 <Blonk> In a world of blonks, gliders do not cut it for eyesight
06:15:58 <Blonk> Since almost none would reach a destination of any distance
06:16:45 <Blonk> So we have a basis for determining what appears transparent: Anything that reacts like a blinker or block to the eyesight-pulse is transparent
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06:43:27 <Blonk> Hmm, the shape of the observable universe is square?
06:43:41 <Blonk> Although that's only at c, which is an attoscience notion
06:43:59 <Blonk> At slower speeds, with the sort of spaceships likely to exist at random, it's likely different
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06:58:33 <zzo38> Do you remember the day when the topic message has strange characters on it?
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07:08:30 <zzo38> Third World War can cause controversial issues, decimate the earth, destroy the world, and even cause extreme poverty and a famine! Worst of all, it will fail a Google test!
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12:05:46 <oerjan> iwc (with annotation) XD
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13:05:53 <Sgeo> Bye for now all
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15:59:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I did that experiment when I discovered chained Gospers.
16:00:19 <Phantom_Hoover> The density of the oncoming stream tends to cause a growing cloud of ash, until it throws a glider back along the stream and destroys the gun.
16:01:11 <Sgeo> What does `ls' do on VMS
16:01:15 <Sgeo> I just tried it
16:01:17 <Sgeo> Things went strange
16:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover> 14:58:36 <Sgeo> Suppose a spacefiller does happen to be nearby
16:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover> 14:58:54 <Sgeo> But couldn't that flood the area with gliders?
16:02:30 <Phantom_Hoover> 15:05:56 <Ilari> What are CA rules with two slashes in them (in golly)? ← Generations rules.
16:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> 16:23:54 <Sgeo> But so yeah, if life depends on the background radiation, which lessens... but if life continues to evolve, it may evolve to need less and less
16:05:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Organism which needs to eat < organism with its own power supply.
16:06:35 <Phantom_Hoover> So evolution *should* result in self-powered organisms dominating.
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16:14:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I'm not confident that my model in which the primary competition is for space would favour intelligence.
16:14:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Evoloop tends to the smallest loops possible, which then dominate.
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16:34:35 <Phantom_Hoover> 22:43:27 <Blonk> Hmm, the shape of the observable universe is square?
16:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> 22:43:41 <Blonk> Although that's only at c, which is an attoscience notion
16:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> 22:43:59 <Blonk> At slower speeds, with the sort of spaceships likely to exist at random, it's likely different
16:34:49 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:34:56 <Sgeo> I hate everyone in my class
16:35:14 <Phantom_Hoover> The demonstrated speed limits for self-propagating objects into the vacuum are c/4 diagonally and c/2 orthogonally.
16:36:58 <Phantom_Hoover> More generally, any effect propagating into the vacuum must remain within a box formed by diagonal lines moving outwards at c/4.
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16:54:46 <Sgeo> I think my professor is tired
16:54:54 <Sgeo> "This is showing that digits are right-justified"
16:55:03 <Sgeo> (On a slide with a negative field-width)
17:02:25 <Sgeo> Is somefunction @somelist meant to pass an array as such to the function, or will somefunction choose to expand it? WHO THE FUCK KNOWS?
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17:11:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you continue to effectively divert me from any form of computing as a career choice.
17:11:07 <nooga> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dj3se/a_c_program_that_prints_out_an_exact_copy_of/
17:11:39 <Phantom_Hoover> # ruby l=92.chr;eval s="s=s.dump[r=1..-2].gsub(/("+l*4+"){4,}(?!\")/){|t|'\"+l*%d+\"'%(t .size/2)};5.times{s=s.dump[r]};puts\"# python\\nprint(\\\"# perl\\\\nprint(\\\\\\ \"# lua"+l*4+"nprint("+l*7+"\"(* ocaml *)"+l*8+"nprint_endline"+l*15+"\"-- haskel l"+l*16+"nimport Data.List;import Data.Bits;import Data.Char;main=putStrLn("+l*31 +"\"/* C */"+l*32+"n#include<stdio.h>"+l*32+"nint main(void){char*s[501]={"+
17:11:40 <Phantom_Hoover> l*31+ "\"++intercalate"+l*31+"\","+l*31+"\"(c(tail(init(show("+l*31+"\"/* Java */"+l*32 +"npublic class QuineRelay{public static void main(String[]a){String[]s={"+l*31+" \"++intercalate"+l*31+"\","+l*31+"\"(c("+l*31+"\"brainfuck"+l*64+"n++++++++[>++++ <-]+++++++++>>++++++++++"+l*31+"\"++(concat(snd(mapAccumL h 2("+l*31+"\"110"+l*31 +"\"++g(length s)++"+l*31+"\"22111211100111112021111102011112120012"+l*31+"\"
17:11:40 <Phantom_Hoover> ++co ncatMap("+l*32+"c->let d=ord c in if d<11then"+l*31+"\"21002"+l*31+"\"else"+l*31+ "\"111"+l*31+"\"++g d++"+l*31+"\"22102"+l*31+"\")s++"+l*31+"\"2100211101012021122 2211211101000120211021120221102111000110120211202"+l*31+"\"))))))++"+l*31+"\","+l *63+"\""+l*64+"n"+l*63+"\"};int i=0;for(;i<94;i++)System.out.print(s[i]);}}"+l*31 +"\")))))++"+l*31+"\",0};int i=0;for(;s[i];i++)printf("+l*63+"\"%s"+l*63+"\",s
17:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> [i] );puts("+l*63+"\""+l*63+"\");return 0;}"+l*31+"\");c s=map("+l*32+"s->"+l*31+"\"" +l*63+"\""+l*31+"\"++s++"+l*31+"\""+l*63+"\""+l*31+"\")(unfoldr t s);t[]=Nothing; t s=Just(splitAt(if length s>w&&s!!w=='"+l*31+"\"'then 501else w)s);w=500;f 0=Not hing;f x=Just((if x`mod`2>0then '0'else '1'),x`div`2);g x= reverse (unfoldr f x); h p c=let d=ord c-48in(d,replicate(abs(p-d))(if d<p then '<'else '>')++"+l*31+"
17:11:52 <Phantom_Hoover> \" ."+l*31+"\");s="+l*31+"\"# ruby"+l*32+"n"+l*31+"\"++"+l*31+"\"l=92.chr;eval s=\"+ (z=l*31)+\"\\\"\"+s+z+\"\\\""+l*31+"\"++"+l*31+"\""+l*32+"n"+l*31+"\""+l*15+"\""+ l*7+"\")"+l*4+"n\\\\\\\")\\\")\"########### (c) Yusuke Endoh, 2009 ###########\n"
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17:13:34 <alise> "is there a quine that compiles itself and runs and compiles the out put and run forever?" ;; ooh
17:13:37 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, was I being stupid?
17:13:51 <alise> ais523: quick, what's the standard perl quine?
17:13:59 <alise> the C-style one with printf, I guess
17:14:02 <ais523> alise: via cheating, or fairly?
17:14:12 <alise> like main(){char q=34, n=10,*a="main() {char q=34,n=10,*a=%c%s%c; printf(a,q,a,q,n);}%c";printf(a,q,a,q,n);}
17:14:20 <ais523> it's one of those two-identical-halves ones, IIRC
17:14:50 <ais523> followed by a blank line
17:15:04 <alise> $b='$b=%c%s%c;printf$b,39,$b,39;';printf$b,39,$b,39;
17:15:05 <ais523> (you can't send the blank line over IRC easily, but it's needed for the two halves to be identical, and also as a string terminator)
17:15:06 <alise> that's more like it
17:15:09 <alise> perl has sprintf, right?
17:15:19 <alise> $b='$b=%c%s%c;eval sprintf$b,39,$b,39;';eval sprintf$b,39,$b,39;
17:15:31 <alise> or what was the language called
17:15:44 <ais523> SMITH was a similar concept, but based on cheat-quines
17:15:53 <alise> $b='$b=%c%s%c;print".\n"; eval sprintf$b,39,$b,39;';print".\n";eval sprintf$b,39,$b,39;
17:16:15 <alise> 08:34:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a diamond.
17:16:19 <alise> geometry of the infinite GoL plane, wonderful
17:16:38 <alise> 09:02:25 <Sgeo> Is somefunction @somelist meant to pass an array as such to the function, or will somefunction choose to expand it? WHO THE FUCK KNOWS?
17:16:40 <alise> 09:02:32 <Sgeo> YAY PERL
17:16:47 <alise> grumble @ people who misunderstand Perl
17:16:53 <alise> and think they're clever for hating on it
17:17:01 <alise> sure it sucks but... not *that* much :)
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17:19:30 <alise> ais523: did you see? I got NT 4.0 running on MIPS.
17:19:34 <alise> With Visual C++. Oh yeah.
17:19:48 <ais523> I didn't see, but I'm not surprised
17:19:51 <alise> A veritable smorgasbord of no applications at all are at my disposal.
17:20:28 <ais523> alise: re your Sgeo quote, I think it's quite sensible for a lang to do that if documentation for the function is available
17:21:22 <alise> ais523: if you care: i.imgur.com/8kftu.png, i.imgur.com/K4Xv0.png
17:21:32 <alise> I probably shouldn't circumvent your URL blocking. Sorry.
17:22:06 <alise> (Anyone: spot the joke and win points.)
17:22:12 <alise> (In one of the images.)
17:23:30 <quintopia> something to do with NT being really old, needing a DeLorean to reach the point in time where it's still cool?
17:23:45 <alise> it's just the DeLorean being a time machine
17:23:54 <alise> and both NT 4 and MIPS workstations being old
17:24:02 <alise> funnier if you don't dissect the unfunny version of the joke beforehand :P
17:24:18 <alise> ais523: fun fact, I had to *run QEMU in WINE* to get that installed.
17:24:35 <alise> An *old* version of QEMU.
17:25:45 <ais523> was this Linux WINE? or Windows WINE?
17:25:45 <alise> huh? I had to run WINE on the host Ubuntu, of course.
17:25:45 <alise> Nobody has compiled WINE for NT/MIPS because that's just silly.
17:25:45 <alise> So I'm not sure what you mean.
17:25:56 <ais523> alise: I thought it might be a way to deal with compatibility issues
17:26:19 <alise> Both old and new QEMUs didn't work, including the Windows binary linked to on the wiki page; but there was an older compiled version in the directory beside it that displayed colours wrongly, but actually got past the freeze in the installation.
17:26:23 <alise> And boy was it slow in WINE.
17:26:39 <alise> But somehow mine finished before Gregor's even though he started before I even downloaded it, so nyah.
17:26:51 <alise> Bah, silly thing, not remembering the date.
17:27:03 <ais523> alise: what do you think of Agora's new website by the way? (http://agoranomic.org/ for people who like convenient links to click on)
17:27:41 <alise> ais523: the two columns are unnecessarily confusing; it is unclear which to focus on at any given moment, and disrupts any natural reading order of the page.
17:28:00 <alise> they're pretty much an ultimate design fail right there, but I'll soldier on and look at the content
17:28:01 <ais523> alise: you focus on whichever one contains the information you want?
17:28:08 <alise> ais523: that does not help someone new to Agora.
17:28:25 <alise> or do you think we should put all paragraphs horizontal to each other, too, in case you want to look at some other one first?
17:28:40 <ais523> alise: it's because reading very long lines is really annoying
17:28:42 <alise> there's nothing stopping an experienced player using the scrollbar; for new players, it is distracting and confusing.
17:28:49 <alise> ais523: so make it one column with a reduced width
17:28:54 <alise> like, y'know, books
17:28:59 <ais523> that's ridiculously ugly and no website should do it
17:29:18 <ais523> do you think newspapers are a design fail?
17:29:31 <alise> right, well, you're not exactly someone i consider someone with great aesthetic tastes, no offence.
17:29:45 <alise> no, but newspapers have a very different purpose, and their text has a strict chronological order, just ordered for space
17:29:50 <alise> and it is purely a space-saving measure
17:29:57 <alise> I defer again to books, which are, of course, much nicer to read than newspapers
17:32:30 <alise> Well, either you're wrong or my strong personal experience, the experience of pretty much everyone I know to exist apart from you, and centuries of refined typographical practice are wrong. People have just got used to crappy typography on screen.
17:33:41 <alise> speaking of nomic, [[On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:18 PM, ais523 <callforjudgement@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
17:33:41 <alise> > We normally don't care about such things, especially when there's a good
17:33:41 <alise> > reason. (An exception is if the Pariah does something like this; that's
17:33:41 <alise> > a risk which comes with being the Pariah.)
17:33:41 <alise> Another exception is if you recently NoVed a bunch of people for late reports.]]
17:33:42 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `if'
17:33:42 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `,'
17:33:42 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
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17:33:58 <ais523> alise: well, I'm one of those rare people who actually /reduces/ font size from the default
17:34:01 <alise> always carefully maintaining his well-nurtured reputation of being a complete and utter jerk
17:34:08 <ais523> also, why is lambdabot here?
17:34:15 <alise> ais523: because I asked someone to bring it back in here
17:34:17 <ais523> not that I mind, I'm just surprised
17:34:18 <alise> and it suddenly appeared
17:34:23 <alise> despite oerjan denying doing ita
17:34:28 <alise> and nobody else coming forward
17:34:34 <alise> we had it for ages not too long ago
17:34:45 <alise> especially since !haskell is rather crappy
17:34:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ah, thankees
17:35:00 <alise> have you thanked lemmih on our behalf? if not, i will
17:35:27 <alise> I'll thank 'im anyway
17:35:30 <alise> did you do /msg or Haskell?
17:35:36 <alise> so I know which channel to respond in
17:35:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I can remember that he said it wasn't necessarily permanent.
17:35:51 <alise> we are on trial :P
17:35:52 <alise> Control Panel item: "Tape Devices"
17:38:07 <ais523> well, tar still assumes it's accessing a tape drive by default
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17:38:44 <ais523> alise: why do you think you have to add an f every single time?
17:38:58 <alise> ais523: ah, is the argument treated as a tape drive otherwise?
17:39:03 <alise> or do you have to pipe it in somehow?
17:39:11 <alise> you can't say </dev/foo, i don't think. maybe you can.
17:39:27 <ais523> I'm not sure how it works without f, as I've never tried to run tar on an actual tape drive
17:39:31 <Phantom_Hoover> One of the few things I actually agreed with in the GNU style guide was that full POSIX compliance is stupid as hell.
17:39:52 <alise> challenge: get a thesis published in both Ann. Agora and an actual journal
17:40:01 <ais523> alise: without f, it uses $TAPE, or stdin/stdout if it happens to be unset
17:40:09 <alise> (Annals of Agora, Proceedings of the Agoran Society...)
17:40:25 <alise> ais523: in the rare, rare case that $TAPE is unset :)
17:40:36 <ais523> it's unset on this laptop
17:40:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Since it has all sorts of idiocy, like 512B blocks for df rather than KB.
17:40:41 <ais523> but then, it doesn't actually have a tape drive
17:40:42 <alise> ais523: unthinkable
17:40:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: gnu du still does that iirc :)
17:41:21 <ais523> theory: the first version of any program should always require an option that's needed for the program to do anything useful
17:41:43 <alise> * dstcruz has quit (Quit: leaving)
17:41:45 <ais523> so that later one when people realise that the default options are braindead, you can make the option into a --traditional equivalent, and change the defaults to something saner
17:42:00 <ais523> alise: wrong window focused, do you think?
17:42:15 <alise> yes, but usually people aren't stupid enough to get *two* commands in
17:42:20 <alise> especially after clear fails to clear the window
17:43:06 <alise> "clears the terminal"
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17:43:13 <alise> D:\>ping google.com
17:43:15 <alise> Bad IP address google.com.
17:43:32 <alise> Having said that I have no network, so maybe it'd work with one.
17:44:00 <alise> Can you believe this thing has IIS?
17:45:02 <alise> "Server: IIS 2.0 for Windows NT 4.0, MIPS architecture"
17:46:10 <ais523> alise: Windows is famous for having a bunch of services that it doesn't need, sitting there as security holes
17:46:32 <alise> IIS isn't exactly just a security hole
17:46:45 <alise> this is the server edition in 1996; it's practically guaranteed to be running a web server of some sort
17:46:49 <alise> besides, i selected to install it
17:47:21 <alise> UNDOCUMENTED(1) Mono Manual UNDOCUMENTED(1)
17:47:22 <alise> undocumented - No manpage for this program.
17:47:22 <alise> This program does not have a manpage. Run this command with the help
17:47:22 <alise> switch to see what it does. For further information, refer to the .NET
17:47:24 <alise> documentation from the Mono project, located on http://www.go-
17:47:28 <alise> Debian GNU/Linux January 15th, 2004 UNDOCUMENTED(1)
17:47:30 <alise> Manual page cli-wrapper(1) line 1/16 (END)
17:47:32 <alise> too good not to paste...
17:47:55 <alise> "Writing manual pages is quite easy, the format is described in man(7)." -- undocumented(7)
17:49:25 <fizzie> "Try the following options if you want more information: foo --help, foo -h, foo -?, info foo, whatis foo, apropos foo, dpkg --listfiles foo, dpkg --search foo, locate '*foo*', find / -name '*foo*'" -- I like how it gets more and more desperate
17:50:06 <ais523> fizzie: they missed apt-cache search
17:50:33 <ais523> which is admittedly quite an off-chance (relying on you having installed a package without using the package system, when it exists in that system)
17:50:50 <fizzie> Well, apt-cache search could find foo-doc, if it's a different package than foo.
17:51:17 <fizzie> (They do mention that you might want to look for a foo-doc package, but not in that list.)
17:51:22 <alise> aptitude is the Debian Project's official package manager :-)
17:51:34 <alise> apt has gone the way of dpkg(1) :P
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17:54:34 <alise> "I love the poor. I feel that the poor are more sensible when you see the antics of the rich. And for some reasons many Indians believe that creating wealth is sinful.
17:54:34 <alise> Anyway although I have several physical machines with me I still prefer not having to power them on, connect the power chord, the Ethernet chord, use a switch/hub and so on."
17:54:46 <alise> Non sequitur of the year.
17:55:42 <fizzie> He doesn't want to play the power chord.
17:58:13 <alise> Bah, why doesn't QEMU have a -serial modem?
17:58:27 <alise> Of course, I'm already using that for the mouse, but I could fix that.
17:58:28 <ais523> alise: dpkg(1) is still useful
17:58:38 <alise> ais523: yes, but it's not what you're meant to actually use when you can use something higher-level
17:58:43 <ais523> when you're messing with packages below the package-manager level
17:58:46 <alise> like apt, basically, except aptitude is almost identical; but them's the rules
18:01:02 <fizzie> What would "-serial modem" do, exactly? If you mean networking, I'm sure you can already get it going with a -serial into a fifo and pppd on the other end. (Admittedly manually twiddling with pppd might not be your idea of fun.)
18:01:26 <alise> fizzie: It would fake a serial modem, using the same sort of network as -net user does.
18:01:40 <alise> Basically, it'd let you add a modem on OSes that fail at Ethernet and get your network through that.
18:02:29 <fizzie> You don't need administrative privileges to run something like slirp, it's just more work than a single command line flag.
18:03:26 <alise> fizzie: Does slirp turn my beautiful fake-Ethernet WLAN connection into a serial modem stream?
18:03:57 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow).
18:04:06 <fizzie> Yes, why not? It's sort of a "use the system's sockets to fake a ppp/slip link into stdin/stdout" thing.
18:04:33 <fizzie> I have no idea if it works on anything modern, though. :p
18:04:43 <alise> You mean on host or guest?
18:04:48 <alise> Because dude, the guest is Windows NT Server 4.0 for MIPS.
18:05:19 <fizzie> It says it works on "Linux glibc and libc5 systems", and seeing libc5 there doesn't fill me with confidence. But there seems to be a "slirp" Ubuntu package, so I guess it's okay.
18:05:27 -!- cal153 has joined.
18:05:58 <alise> All you have to remember is this: Once you run Slirp, your shell
18:05:58 <alise> account now looks exactly like a SLIP/PPP account (with some limita‐
18:05:58 <alise> tions of course). Any documentation that you have telling you how to
18:05:58 <alise> connect to a SLIP/PPP account is completely valid for Slirp as well.
18:06:10 <alise> It's in BETA! "(c) 1995,1996|"
18:06:23 <alise> Well, five zeroes works to exit.
18:06:28 <Gregor> alise: AFAICT, NT 4 Terminal Server was never released for MIPS.
18:06:34 <Gregor> That makes me, like, ultra-unhappy, omg.
18:06:42 <alise> You can also "disconnect" Slirp by typing five 1's (one's), with a 1
18:06:43 <alise> second gap between each. This will disconnect Slirp from your shell's
18:06:43 <alise> terminal and put Slirp in the background. Later, you can type
18:06:43 <alise> to "reconnect" Slirp again.
18:06:47 <alise> Gregor: Workstation FTW
18:06:55 <alise> Gregor: Also ha ha @ using irrelevant details to diminish my accomplishment
18:07:10 <alise> I'm going to COMPILE A HELLO WORLD now
18:09:39 <Gregor> What do you mean "Workstation FTW"
18:09:46 <Gregor> Workstation can't do terminal services :P
18:09:51 <Gregor> So it's an irrelevant comparison.
18:10:09 <alise> Terminal services is for losers. Also I've forgotten what it does.
18:10:30 <alise> Sweet MSVC.EXE crashed
18:10:46 <alise> [[The memory could not be "read".]] -- result of using the debugger on it
18:10:47 <Gregor> alise: rdesktop server
18:10:55 <Gregor> alise: Yeah, I get that too. Use it from command line.
18:10:58 <alise> "Read", if you know what I mean.
18:11:01 <alise> Gregor: But it *worked before!*
18:11:11 <Gregor> alise: It *worked from the custom QEmu*?
18:11:17 <alise> It worked from my host QEMU.
18:11:21 <alise> Which I am using now.
18:11:26 <alise> You only need the WINE one for installation.
18:11:33 <alise> Gregor: Admittedly this was immediately post-install, before any reboot.
18:11:59 <alise> It may require the CD.
18:12:06 <Gregor> Anyway, I want my rdesktop server.
18:12:06 <Gregor> I want to give people graphical remote-login accounts :P
18:12:08 <Gregor> To a f***ing NT 4 MIPS box.
18:12:14 <alise> Yes, because that's perfectly secure.
18:12:28 <Gregor> alise: It is if it's in MIPS QEmu and you have a backup of the disk image.
18:12:29 <alise> Gregor: Also, f u c k i n g.
18:13:09 <Gregor> ALISE AND VORPAL SITTING IN A TREE,
18:14:17 <alise> Other than your mom.
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18:15:02 <alise> FUCK the uncancellable CHKDSK.
18:19:06 <fizzie> Gregor: What sort of MIPS systems does NT run on, incidentally? I have a SGI Indy (MIPS R4k, sort of ARC-y firmware) here, but I don't suppose they ever ported it to *that*?
18:20:29 <alise> fizzie: I know what my display driver and "BIOS" setup are.
18:20:31 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Viivan loppu.).
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18:20:41 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_(computer)
18:20:45 <alise> The Jazz computer architecture was a motherboard and chipset design originally developed by Microsoft for use in developing Windows NT. The design was eventually used as the basis for most MIPS-based Windows NT systems.
18:20:56 <alise> is what we use with qemu
18:21:00 <alise> an evolution of Jazz
18:21:04 <alise> but a compatible one
18:21:12 <alise> [insert jazz puns]
18:21:16 <alise> There were also some MIPS systems designed to run Windows NT and comply with the ARC standard, but nevertheless were not based on the Jazz platform:
18:21:16 <alise> NeTpower FASTseries Falcon
18:21:16 <alise> ShaBLAMM! NiTro-VLB
18:21:16 <alise> Siemens-Nixdorf RM-200, RM-300 and RM-400
18:21:21 <alise> fizzie: Do you have a ShaBLAMM! workstation?
18:21:43 <fizzie> Well, no; with that sort of name, I'm sure you'd have already noticed.
18:25:02 -!- FireFly has joined.
18:26:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No WINE.
18:26:30 <alise> You only need that for the install.
18:26:37 <alise> Gregor: Blast! Why does it crash so!
18:31:19 <alise> fizzie: slirp is freaking complex.
18:31:39 <alise> So basically I'm gonna start slirp, give QEMU the right port...
18:32:46 <fizzie> It's supposed to be used so that you start your PPP dialer thingie, tell it to do manual login, dial up to your shell provider, log in normally, then run slirp and let the PPP dialer start the networking.
18:33:39 <alise> what's the slirp port?
18:33:40 <fizzie> I don't quite know what qemu's -serial can do; at least it has that tcp console, and you could run a listening netcat with "slirp" as the command.
18:33:50 <alise> so slirp works like a normal tcp stream, right?
18:34:14 <fizzie> No, slirp speaks to stdin/stdout. It's your task to get those streams of it into qemu as a serial port.
18:37:34 <alise> qemu has a tcp-as-serial thing
18:37:41 <alise> i just mean, ehird@dinky:~/NT4$ nc -l -p 9090 -e /usr/bin/slirp
18:37:43 <alise> should work, right?
18:38:06 <fizzie> It sounds at least something that has a chance of working.
18:38:19 <alise> and get no response as i fail to know how to be a slip/ppp kinda guy
18:38:57 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever configured NT 4 to use dialup, either.
18:39:19 <alise> i meant connecting to slirp with netcat :)
18:41:17 <fizzie> Slirp's pretty tricky, there's magical addresses in 10.0.2.0/24 that you can telnet (after connecting) to configure it, and you can bind programs into ports of 10.0.2.1, and redirect incoming ports (the slirp app will then bind listening sockets for those and forward the connections) and so on.
18:41:19 <Phantom_Hoover> THINGS THAT ANNOY ME: people with names that should be spelt complicatedly, but aren't.
18:42:31 <alise> I am still convinced that "sins" is a valid pronunciation of "science".
18:42:45 <alise> Jesus died for your science.
18:42:51 <alise> Just pronounce it as "sins" in that sentence, it totally makes sense.
18:43:06 <Gregor> What's this about fizzie having a MIPS workstation?
18:43:25 <alise> i wanna buy some of your old gear
18:43:57 <alise> I'm pretty sure he's married. Sorry Greg.
18:44:32 <fizzie> Gregor: They got rid of all the SGI Indy workstations at the university, gave them away to students.
18:44:40 <alise> Gregor: I am configuring ~dial-up networking~ because -net nic -net user doesn't work.
18:44:43 <alise> Gregor: DON'T WORRY I'M NOT MARRIED
18:44:43 <Gregor> fizzie: D'awww, lucky bastard
18:45:04 <alise> Hmm, it's checking COM1.
18:45:07 <alise> That's parallel port, right?
18:45:41 <fizzie> Gregor: I think they've now given out the O2 machines too, which were altogether more scifiy-looking.
18:46:14 <alise> lawl, I need to configure slirp's baud rate.
18:46:23 <fizzie> (I mean, a nickname for the Indy is "Indigo without the 'go'"; they're not *so* impressive.)
18:46:33 <alise> 28800 sounds good!
18:52:04 <alise> IT'S FINDERATING MY MODEM
18:52:08 <alise> [autodetect SLIP/CSLIP, MTU 1500, MRU 1500, 115200 baud]
18:53:43 <alise> Gregor: Haha wow, DHCP over parallel port modem.
18:54:42 <alise> Gregor: DHCP over parallel port modem over local TCP socket (slirp, over local networking) over local IP
18:54:55 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:55:00 <alise> I wonder if I can set it to infinite baud.
18:57:58 <alise> Gregor: modem software crashes hell yeah
18:59:00 <alise> Review of Windows NT Server 4.0 for MIPS' networking:
18:59:03 <alise> It am stupid and I no like it
19:00:40 <fizzie> You go too far! No control nature!
19:02:13 <alise> No! Am connect computers!
19:02:24 <alise> [events of the Terminator films, ordered chronologically]
19:03:23 <fizzie> A seminar organizer introduced a visiting lecturer from Intel to us by saying "these are the guys who are building Skynet".
19:03:34 <Phantom_Hoover> What about the stuff that contradicts the other stuff?
19:05:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That also happens.
19:05:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You just *know* someone's formulated a consistent timeline for the entire canon.
19:06:02 <alise> See: Memory Alpha.
19:06:47 <ais523> alise: apparently, official Myst canon, handed down by the people in charge, is that the first three games contradict the rest of the series because they are, in-universe, video games rather than things that actually happened
19:07:01 <ais523> a lot of Myst fans are rather infuriated by the way its canon workd
19:07:28 <alise> ais523: that's easily fixed
19:08:03 <alise> the first three Myst games are simply projections -- like "Star Trek" is a projection of the world of Star Trek on to our world -- of the same universe projected inside the canon of the fourth game onwards.
19:08:22 <alise> That is, there are the universes O (original three Myst games), N (everything after that) and X (our universe).
19:08:25 <Vorpal> <Gregor> alise: It is if it's in MIPS QEmu and you have a backup of the disk image.<-- nice
19:08:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, can I have such a login?
19:08:36 <alise> The original three Myst games depict events in universe O.
19:08:47 <Gregor> Vorpal: I don't have Terminal Server D-8
19:08:49 <alise> There is a projection of O in world N. It is fictional.
19:08:52 <alise> There is a projection of O in world X. It is fictional.
19:08:57 <alise> There is a projection of N in world X. It is fictional.
19:09:11 <ais523> the funny thing is that I can could come up with a plausible-ish story to explain the apparent contradictions between 1-2-3 and 4, if it wasn't for the developers trying to shut all that sort of thing down
19:09:20 <Vorpal> <Gregor> ALISE AND VORPAL SITTING IN A TREE, <-- self balanced binary tree, powered by the waste heat from us arguing?
19:09:21 <alise> ais523: see? two perfect universe canons, without any matryoshka stuff
19:09:38 <alise> ais523: I have no idea what the actual story is :)
19:10:07 <ais523> it doesn't help that the first four games are all obviously in the same continuity
19:10:12 <alise> ais523: i mean, let's put it this way: would you rather believe that Star Trek is an incomplete "mini-universe" inside our own, rather than a separate universe that we have windows into? because that's ridiculous
19:10:26 <alise> if you accept the windows-onto-a-universe view, which is pretty much how canon works...
19:10:28 <Gregor> Vorpal: I could give you a sort of lame console account.
19:10:32 <alise> then there's no contradiction with there being two windows in different universes
19:10:42 <alise> like there are multiple projections of one universe in our own
19:10:53 <ais523> yep, but how can you reuse characters when you do that?
19:10:58 <ais523> do they climb through the window or something?
19:11:00 <alise> (e.g. a game and a film taking place simultaneously, but focusing on different elements)
19:11:13 <alise> the characters in the first three games are separate people as in the fourth game onwards
19:11:19 <ais523> alise: well, it isn't a cameo, it's a case of having the same main NPC...
19:11:20 <alise> they're just _based on_ the fourth game characters onwards
19:11:35 <alise> just like we might have, I don't know, Adventures of William Shatner: The Person Who Talks Slowly
19:11:38 <alise> where he kills a bear
19:11:55 <alise> if the main character in Myst 4 references actually doing things in the first three games, that's an issue. does e?
19:11:56 <ais523> I doubt this theory is any more satisfactory to the fans than the existing ones...
19:12:10 <ais523> alise: I'm not certain, but I think so
19:12:29 <ais523> the games are full of journals, which often contain events from past ages
19:12:34 <alise> ais523: then you can say that the first three games are dramatised versions of the real events in the "new" universe
19:12:46 <alise> so the contradictions are artistic license in the first three games created inside the "new" universe
19:12:47 <ais523> well, that's basically what the canon did
19:12:52 <alise> OR, the main character is delusional :)
19:12:55 <ais523> stating they were video games based on the events
19:12:57 <alise> and based eir life on games
19:13:17 <ais523> hmm, delusional narrator is actually the method World of Warcraft apparently uses to fix all inconsistencies in its history
19:13:32 <alise> WoW is hardly a canon-rich game, though :P
19:13:49 <alise> real canon is a bit tricky in MMORPGs, I'd say...
19:14:06 <alise> Gregor: do you have networking working?
19:14:15 <Gregor> alise: Yeah, I never had any issue with it.
19:14:16 <alise> networking working king ing ng g
19:14:19 <alise> Gregor: what switches?
19:14:25 <Gregor> alise: -net nic -net user
19:14:26 <alise> maybe i shouldn't have told qemu i have a serial mouse
19:14:30 <alise> Gregor: how do you connect?
19:14:34 <alise> what is the ethernet address set as?
19:14:40 <alise> perhaps it's an issue in my later, faster version
19:15:55 <alise> "The studio had suggested O. J. Simpson for the role of the Terminator, but Cameron did not feel that Simpson would be believable as a killer." -- Wikipedia, "The Terminator"
19:16:55 <alise> Gregor: and this persists across reboots? does time?
19:18:33 <Gregor> alise: Ethernet address does. Time does not. Not sure why.
19:18:49 <alise> Time... is not persistent.
19:18:54 <alise> It is only an illusion we use to create... breakfast.
19:19:06 <alise> An oh so pleasant illusion. Breakfast.
19:19:42 <alise> Gregor: How much RAM has your fake server got dood? Oh my god the chains on the login screen are amazing in fucked up colour mode
19:19:45 <alise> They're so green and yellow
19:20:02 <alise> Gregor: Dood, how do you type ctrl+alt+delete in WINE
19:20:09 <alise> ME TOO RAM BUDDIES *HI5*
19:20:16 <Gregor> alise: ctrl+alt+3, "sendkey ctrl-alt-delete"
19:20:25 <alise> Whoa, I had no idea that existed.
19:20:52 <Gregor> alise: Why are you running it in wine again?
19:21:04 <alise> Because it doesn't do networking outside of WINE?
19:21:08 <alise> I assumed you were using it in WINE too.
19:21:17 <alise> We have the same QEMU and it's only broken for one of us
19:21:41 <Gregor> No, I only used wine for the install.
19:21:48 <alise> Then ... what QEMU version are you using?
19:22:27 <alise> SHOW ME UR CMD LINES
19:22:30 <alise> SHOW ME UR CONNECTIN' METHUDS
19:22:33 <Gregor> Idonno why it lurves me and hates you :P
19:22:47 <Gregor> Maybe because yours failed during install, it just isn't configured.
19:22:51 <Gregor> So you need to ... configure it.
19:25:46 <alise> Gregor: Do elaborate.
19:26:34 <alise> Gregor: So you can telnet to google.com?
19:27:03 <alise> Gregor: lawl i hate you for doing this
19:28:23 <nooga> http://lkml.org/lkml/2010/4/1/128
19:32:19 <alise> ^choo archaeologists
19:32:19 <fungot> archaeologists rchaeologists chaeologists haeologists aeologists eologists ologists logists ogists gists ists sts ts s
19:32:24 <fungot> archaeology rchaeology chaeology haeology aeology eology ology logy ogy gy y
19:32:30 <fungot> archaeology archaeology
19:32:33 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord
19:32:39 <fungot> archaeologyrchaeologychaeologyhaeologyaeologyeologyologylogyogygyy
19:32:44 <alise> ^scramble archaeologyrchaeologychaeologyhaeologyaeologyeologyologylogyogygyy
19:32:44 <fungot> acaooycaooyhelghelgaooyooylglgoyyyggyoyooglegleyooayooacglehrglehr
19:32:48 <alise> ^scramble archaeology rchaeology chaeology haeology aeology eology ology logy ogy gy y
19:32:48 <fungot> acaooyrhelg helg aooyaooyelg lg oyoyg yy g glyooyoo gle glehyooacyooac glehr
19:32:52 <alise> no apparent pattern
19:33:14 <nooga> tr to get doppler effect
19:33:19 <alise> ^choo We have killed all the children, sir.
19:33:19 <fungot> We have killed all the children, sir. e have killed all the children, sir. have killed all the children, sir. have killed all the children, sir. ave killed all the children, sir. ve killed all the children, ...
19:33:27 <alise> ^scramble We have killed all the children, sir. e have killed all the children, sir. have killed all the children, sir. have killed all the children, sir. ave killed all the children, sir. ve killed all the children,
19:33:27 <fungot> W aekle l h hlrn i.ehv ildaltecide,sr hv ildaltecide,sr aekle l h hlrn i.aekle l h hlrn i.v ildaltecide,nrlh h l elke rs,edicetladli v rs,edicetladli vh.i nrlh h l elkea .i nrlh h l elkea rs,edicetladli vhe
19:33:35 <alise> ^choo we have killed all the children sir
19:33:35 <fungot> we have killed all the children sir e have killed all the children sir have killed all the children sir have killed all the children sir ave killed all the children sir ve killed all the children sir e kill ...
19:33:40 <alise> ^scramble we have killed all the children sir e have killed all the children sir have killed all the children sir have killed all the children sir ave killed all the children sir ve killed all the children sir e kill
19:33:40 <fungot> w aekle l h hlrnsrehv ildaltecide i hv ildaltecide i aekle l h hlrnsraekle l h hlrnsrv ildaltecide i illkersnrlh h l elke i edicetladli v i edicetladli vhrsnrlh h l elkea rsnrlh h l elkea i edicetladli vhe
19:34:41 <alise> Gregor: Somehow, you have made my network work.
19:34:53 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: e993 i gave up long ago intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal no version 0.28+ no no circumstances in which this done will affect which i/ o
19:34:58 <alise> Gregor: Link me to RawIRC, dood.
19:35:05 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic* irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
19:35:12 <alise> Google in IE infiniloops :)
19:35:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I recognised it
19:35:41 <alise> microsoft.com loads
19:35:47 <alise> today is a good day
19:35:57 <alise> the layout even half-works
19:36:03 <ais523> now I'm vaguely wondering if there are any IE 2 exploits still out there
19:36:12 <alise> it's actually laid out pretty damn well
19:36:17 <alise> even a horizontal menu bar
19:36:24 <alise> and the rest is linearly organised
19:37:42 <alise> Gregor: RawIRC, dood
19:37:42 <ais523> could be that microsoft.com is only tested in IE 2...
19:37:59 <alise> Gregor: Your website is Internet Explorer 2 Compatible(TM)
19:38:22 -!- olsner has joined.
19:39:11 <pikhq> ais523: I doubt there's any IE 2 exploits for NT 4 on... MIPS? PowerPC?
19:39:27 <ais523> pikhq: you'd be surprised
19:39:42 <ais523> meanwhile, I'm vaguely wondering at how Twitter managed to get exploited twice in a week
19:39:45 <pikhq> Well, rather, I doubt there's any *in the wild*.
19:39:48 <ais523> it was XSS the first time, not sure what it was second time
19:40:44 <alise> Alpha is the coolest, having a dynamic x86 -> Alpha translation that actually cached it on disk
19:40:46 <alise> and that ran Office perfectly
19:41:04 <alise> so you'd run x86 Office the first time, it'd do some compiling, close it, reopen, opens instantly
19:41:07 <alise> because it saved the translation
19:41:35 <alise> "One of the first thing you’ll find out, is that the Dec Alpha was popular non intel machine to run because of FX!32. This program from Dec, allowed for dynamic translation of 32bit binaries on the Alpha. So that you could run Office 97 for the i386 on the Alpha. And on the 2nd run it was effectively a native copy as it had been translated at that point."
19:42:20 <pikhq> That's actually pretty awesome.
19:43:06 <alise> now feed it self-modifying code >:)
19:43:11 <Vorpal> brb, restarting router due to it getting borked internal state
19:43:19 <alise> pikhq: link me to rawirc plz
19:43:40 <alise> pikhq: YOU ARE WORST PERSON
19:44:03 <alise> WILL USE http://vpsland.superglobalmegacorp.com/install/WindowsNT4.0-MIPS/irc/ INSTEAD
19:45:01 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:45:10 <alise> /connect irc.freenode.net -> it connects to DALnet
19:46:30 -!- alips has joined.
19:46:48 <alips> wow i can't see the messages i type
19:47:30 <alips> Anyone want to teach me MFC programming circa NT 4? :P
19:47:35 <olsner> alips: you are not invisible and we can see you fine, just so you know :P
19:47:48 <alips> nbecbecause i fcannot see myself
19:47:54 <alise> cool, backspace doesn't work
19:48:10 <olsner> now do the MFC and build you an IRC client
19:48:17 * alips and ^A shows as a smiley face
19:48:29 <alips> olsner teach me he magic ways
19:48:43 <alips> i have a half-broken copy of visual c++ and a wild imagination
19:48:48 -!- Vorpal has joined.
19:48:50 <olsner> it's not magic, just MFC
19:48:59 <alips> lol @Vorpal] \esoteric@
19:49:05 <alise> *"Vorpal] #esoteric"
19:49:08 <alise> it's totally a message
19:49:14 <alise> also wild imagination version 2.0
19:49:15 <olsner> does that even come with MFC?
19:49:18 <alise> olsner: apparently
19:49:32 <alise> olsner: feel free to link me to a better toolchain compiled for mips :D
19:49:49 <olsner> hmm... so fire up the application wizard and point-and-click yourself a UI?
19:49:52 <alips> I'm RISCin' my life out here!!
19:49:58 <alise> olsner: hell, i'd be fine with the console
19:50:02 <alise> dunno if it has a GUI designer :P
19:50:05 <alise> the ide's broken atm
19:50:07 <alise> gonna try reinstalling
19:50:15 -!- alips has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:50:32 <alise> woot, VC++ 2.0 doesn't have an uninstall entry
19:50:34 <alise> hope it has an uninstall program
19:51:02 <olsner> I really like raw Win32 better than MFC though, it's at least smaller/cleaner although you'll have to do more yourself
19:51:23 <Gregor> I don't think I've ever seen the word "clean" used to describe the Windows API
19:51:50 <olsner> do take note that I'm comparing it with MFC :)
19:52:09 <alise> olsner: i don't mind how ugly it is, as long as i have to write very little
19:52:27 <alise> ideally i'd bang cygwin/X on this
19:52:32 <alise> but SOMEONE (Gregor) hasn't compiled it yet
19:52:34 <olsner> maybe you can get QT or something sensible working
19:52:54 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
19:53:09 <alise> olsner: not only is it effectively Windows 95 plus *less compatibility*
19:53:12 <alise> it's freakin' MIPS
19:53:18 <alise> and probably lacks an API or two
19:53:28 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
19:53:28 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:53:52 <Gregor> I sincerely doubt that its API has any appreciable holes relative to NT4 on any other platform.
19:54:07 <pikhq> Gregor: Missing DirectX.
19:54:22 <Gregor> "relative to NT4 on any other platform."
19:54:36 <pikhq> I thought x86 NT4 could have DirectX?
19:54:47 <Gregor> I mean in the basic system, not as an addon.
19:55:06 <Gregor> Obviously there are lots of libraries available for x86 that aren't available for MIPS :P
19:55:12 <alise> Gregor: So get compiling.
19:55:20 <Gregor> Get your face compiling.
19:55:33 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: damn *you* harry hill
19:55:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot hear the words "which is better" in any form without wanting to add "There's only one way to find out! FIGHT!"
19:56:42 <alise> Gregor: DOWNLOAD NEKO98 FROM THE NTMIPS ARCHIVE NOW
19:56:49 <alise> IT IS A KITTEN THAT CHASES YOUR CURSOR ON THE DESKTOP
19:56:54 <alise> I HAVE DISCOVERED THIS WITH GOOGLE
19:56:55 <alise> OBTAIN IMMEDIATELY
19:57:27 <olsner> hmm, feels like I'm becoming tired and weird after too much being awake... too bad I have to finish the dexter episode first
19:57:35 <fizzie> Gregor: NT 4.0 had DirectX 2.0a included in it as a system component. (No Direct3D, though.) That's something that might be missing from the MIPS port, who knows.
19:58:12 <alise> olsner: dexter the american tv series thing?
19:58:31 <fizzie> alise: Does the kitten interact with esheep, though?
19:58:41 <alise> a friend is watching it right now x_x
19:58:45 <alise> olsner: are you sure you're not her?
19:59:04 <alise> fizzie: Unfortunately, nobody is cool enough to compile esheep for MIPS.
19:59:05 <olsner> oh, I had one of those desk-pets back in the windows 3.1 days
19:59:30 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neko_(computer_program)
19:59:55 <fizzie> alise: Hey, I had that cat.
20:00:12 <alise> Now you can have it on MIPS!
20:00:16 <alise> Your life is instantly better!
20:00:17 <fizzie> (Don't rememer in what. It seems very widely ported.)
20:00:34 <olsner> alise: if I've merely been hallucinating being me for all my life and is really your friend, then yes
20:01:06 <olsner> alise: am I? have I? really? you think that's reasonable?
20:01:35 <alise> olsner: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
20:01:49 <alise> Welcome to your new life; you will shortly be unplugged from your olsner-matrix into your new my-friend-matrix.
20:02:09 <alise> (That's the sound effect.)
20:02:16 <alise> RIP olsner 1601--2010
20:02:33 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, you're actually an initial state and an algorith,
20:02:45 <olsner> alise: ooh, born at the very start of the windows epoch?
20:02:48 <alise> 2 is an initial state of 2 and an algorithm of f(x) = x
20:02:53 <fizzie> alise: I think that Indy has fsn -- of Jurassic Park fame -- running in Irix on that Indy, by the way.
20:02:59 <alise> olsner: so *that's* why NT Server 4 for MIPS thinks it's January 1601 at 12 am.
20:03:16 <fizzie> I think that sentence has some unnecessary repetition going on, also.
20:03:17 <alise> fizzie: "I think that Indy has fsn running in Irix on that Indy"
20:03:27 <alise> I think that sentence has some unnecessary repetition going on in that sentence, also.
20:03:40 <olsner> alise: did you not possess this piece of information until now?
20:03:42 <fizzie> I was actually mangling it into something more coherent and mistakenly \r'd.
20:03:53 <alise> olsner: indeed not. now stop existing.
20:04:10 <olsner> all in due time... all in due time
20:04:42 <alise> I think VC++ 2 is uninstalled just by deleting the directory.
20:04:47 <alise> Suspiciously overly simple.
20:05:01 <olsner> what, that can't possibly not break your system completely
20:06:53 <alise> The readme had no information on uninstalling, it has no obvious uninstallation program and it left no Add/Remove Programs entry.
20:07:03 <alise> It is probably Microsoft's intention that it never be uninstalled at all.
20:07:06 <olsner> some things are not uninstallable
20:07:21 <alise> "MSVC++ 2.0 has now permanently welded itself to your kernel."
20:07:39 <olsner> a bit like the metamorphosis installer that transforms an NT Server into a Domain Controller
20:08:23 <olsner> dunno if NT4 did that or if it started with w2k though
20:08:41 <alise> BOOT YOU INFERNAL MACHINE
20:08:48 <alise> olsner: It's a domain controller by default here, dood.
20:08:52 <alise> Install-time option.
20:09:40 <olsner> oh, that makes heaps more sense than this command-line program you ran on Win2k
20:11:37 <fizzie> The cursed +2 Visual C compiler welds itself to your system!
20:11:50 <nooga> ^cho doodoodoodood
20:11:50 <fungot> doodoodoodoodoodoodoodoododoodoodooddoodoodoodoodoodoododoodooddoodoodoodoododooddoodoododd
20:12:21 <alise> Why is it so slow right now.
20:12:26 <olsner> welcome to the Visual Studio/Windows NT 2.0/4.0 kernel/compiler
20:12:30 <alise> ^scramble doodoododd
20:12:39 <alise> ^scramble doodddoodo
20:12:42 <alise> ^scramble dododooddo
20:12:46 <alise> ^scramble dddododooo
20:12:51 <alise> ^scramble ddddoooood
20:12:55 <alise> ^scramble ddooodoodd
20:13:01 <alise> ^scramble doooddodod
20:13:03 <olsner> ^scramble alisealisealise
20:13:05 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:13:06 <alise> ^scramble dodoodddoo
20:13:09 <alise> ^scramble ddodooddoo
20:13:26 <alise> what did we determine was the cycle length again? it was very trivial, n or 2n or something
20:13:30 <alise> for length of string
20:13:37 <oerjan> permutations of finite sets usually have cycles, alise
20:13:48 <alise> now figure out the cycle length again (it's trivial, iirc)
20:14:04 <oerjan> alise: i wrote a haskell program for it iirc
20:14:12 <alise> (to scramble something, take two symbols from the head, place them on the output, then move in the middle and continue)
20:14:16 <alise> *move to the middle and continue)
20:14:20 <olsner> oh, all the bot spam reminds me... did I ever mention my irc-bot in sed? that was pretty fun
20:15:01 <alise> using nc -e, presumably?
20:15:25 <olsner> my nc didn't have -e so I installed socat
20:15:41 <pikhq> Candidate for governor of Oregon feels that waitresses make too much.
20:15:52 <pikhq> Keep in mind that they generally make below minimum wage.
20:16:42 <alise> olsner: Hobbit netcat with -DGAPING_SECURITY_HOLE ftw :P
20:16:50 <alise> WHY ARE YOU SUDDENLY SO SLOW NT
20:18:09 <pikhq> (any job in the US with a reasonable expectation of tips being paid can be paid below minimum wage)
20:18:26 <oerjan> Main> map scrseq [1..50]
20:18:26 <oerjan> [1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,10,9,14,5,5,12,18,12,10,7,12,23,21,8,26,20,9,29,30,6,6,33,22,35,9,20,30,39,27,41,8,28,11,12,10,36,24,15,50] :: [Int]
20:18:57 <alise> oerjan: right, so completely random then
20:19:18 <oerjan> alise: at least i don't recall if we found a formula
20:19:40 <alise> pretty sure we did and then you said "oh that's fucking trivial you stupid moronic fuckface"
20:19:44 <alise> maybe with a few less expletives
20:19:48 <alise> completely random was a joke btw
20:20:01 <alise> what is scrseq n for a given n?
20:20:15 <oerjan> alise: oh we probably looked it up on OEIS
20:20:39 -!- cheater99 has joined.
20:20:39 <alise> Least number m such that 2^m = +- 1 mod 2n + 1.
20:21:07 <alise> log_2(A160657(n) + 2) - 1 where A160657 is The period of a 2-by-4n rectangular oscillator in the 2x2 (B36/S125) Life-like cellular automaton.
20:21:09 <alise> which is interesting
20:21:13 <alise> although probably a coincidence
20:22:16 <oerjan> a003558 i guess, that's the name of the next function in the file
20:23:27 <oerjan> a function i wrote a long time ago for finding the cycle lengths of the scramble command
20:23:49 -!- Harpyon has joined.
20:23:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:23:58 <oerjan> scrseq n = pertest srmlebac [1..n+1]
20:24:26 <oerjan> (the definition of the functions pertest and srmlebac are left as an exercise ;D)
20:26:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: at 8:26 pm?
20:27:06 <alise> ^srmlebac srmlebac
20:27:08 <alise> ^srmlebac smeacblr
20:27:11 <alise> ^srmlebac seclrbam
20:27:21 <Gregor> pikhq: Dudley Do-Wrong you mean?
20:27:29 <alise> Suborder[a_, n_] := If[n>1 && GCD[a, n]==1, Min[MultiplicativeOrder[a, n, {-1, 1}]], 0]; Table[Suborder[2, 2n+1], {n, 0, 100}] - T. D. Noe (noe(AT)sspectra.com), Aug 02 2006
20:27:34 <alise> Sure wish there was a nicer way of writing that.
20:27:48 <alise> oerjan: so wait, i don't get it, what is the ordering of that sequence?
20:27:50 <nooga> oerjan: you sounded like an acedemic teacher for a moment
20:27:52 <alise> <oerjan> [1,2,3,3,5,6,4,4,9,6,11,10,9,14,5,5,12,18,12,10,7,12,23,21,8,26,20,9,29,30,6,6,33,22,35,9,20,30,39,27,41,8,28,11,12,10,36,24,15,50] :: [Int]
20:30:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i never said sleep :P
20:31:06 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHqh6EpkpRs an interesting, musical look into the mind of an anti-vaccination crazy
20:32:57 <oerjan> pikhq: you might find it interesting that norway has no minimum wage law (afair), we just have very strong unions. there is however a law against "social dumping" which allows the government in some cases to declare that the union wage agreements must be applied to non-unionized workers/companies in the same field
20:33:34 <oerjan> (/me isn't sure of the english terminology for all this)
20:33:50 <pikhq> oerjan: All correct terminology, it seems.
20:34:08 <pikhq> oerjan: BTW, unlike in Norway, a minimum wage is *very* necessary.
20:34:27 <pikhq> Employers here seem to think that they're hiring slaves, except with money being traded.
20:34:35 <pikhq> alise: OH NOES IT HAS A LIVE VIRUS!
20:35:13 <Gregor> Purdue has two poultry science buildings.
20:35:28 <alise> pikhq: EVERYTHING IS OK
20:35:49 <oerjan> the law has been applied in particular to construction workers, because there are a number of firms that _try_ to treat polish (mainly) immigrant workers like that
20:36:08 <Gregor> alise: Eh, they're pollacks.
20:36:12 <pikhq> oerjan: $2.50/hr is not-unusual for waiters.
20:36:17 <Gregor> They're like, 3/5ths of a person.
20:36:21 <alise> That video is utter pollacks.
20:36:42 <oerjan> it's not that they're polish really, it's that they're not norwegian and so has a harder time finding out how to get their rights
20:36:43 <alise> Gregor: And that's 1/5th less than black people using AMERICAN MATHEMATICS!
20:36:55 <alise> do your languages not have a different term for has/have?
20:37:02 <alise> admittedly Vorpal is much, much worse about it, but then he's stupid
20:37:03 <oerjan> so unscrupulous employers abuse them
20:37:28 <oerjan> alise: norwegian has no person or number ending on verbs
20:37:31 <Gregor> alise: They're 3/5ths too, hence why I used that fraction :P
20:37:59 <oerjan> (neither does swedish, although they seem to have lost it somewhat later than us i think)
20:38:01 <alise> I forgot; thought it was 3/4ths.
20:38:05 <alise> AMERICAN MATHEMATICS
20:38:12 <alise> oerjan: then Vorpal has no excuse :D
20:38:34 <olsner> oerjan: that was dropped long before my time at least
20:38:44 <alise> olsner: you're like 20 :P
20:38:50 <oerjan> alise: um how so? i think in swedish it's mainly for poetry or something
20:38:50 <alise> Gregor: Wow, it's going to install 173.74 megabytes.
20:39:03 <alise> Gregor: I had no idea VC++ 2.0 was so big. :-P
20:39:08 <alise> Although that's the full installation, so.
20:39:15 <alise> (Not even a standard option; you have to custom-configure it.)
20:39:20 <alise> oerjan: he gets has/have wrong all the time in English
20:39:24 <Gregor> pikhq: BTW, in MOST states, the state minimum wage overrides the federal minimum wage regulation that allows waiters to earn less than minimum wage pre-tip. Oregon is such a state.
20:39:27 <alise> and you lost it earlier than them
20:39:30 <alise> so should be worse at it
20:39:37 <alise> even though that makes no sense, but
20:39:51 <oerjan> <alise> oerjan: so wait, i don't get it, what is the ordering of that sequence? <-- what?
20:39:53 <alise> Gregor: Dayum, I was hoping you were gonna say that states can set the minimum wage even lower.
20:39:57 <alise> That would be hilarious.
20:40:00 <alise> oerjan: of the scrambling sequence
20:40:15 <alise> i guess it's length 1, length 2, ...
20:40:17 <Gregor> pikhq: Also, Oregon minimum wage rises automatically with inflation.
20:40:19 <alise> i guess i'm a bit stupid, also
20:40:33 <oerjan> nooga: well "left as an exercise" is of course academic, and can also be used as a joke when you're too lazy to write things out
20:40:46 <alise> groan, it installs into D:\WINNT\SYTSEM32
20:40:54 <alise> which is probably somehow the source of the crashing
20:41:35 <Gregor> alise: Installs what there?
20:41:41 <alise> Gregor: it has "System Files: D:\WINNT\SYSTEM32" in the directory selection thing, uneditable
20:41:44 <alise> in the where to install to box
20:41:48 <alise> implying that it installs some stuff into there
20:41:53 <alise> probably DLLs or LIBs or whatever
20:42:00 <Gregor> Sure, but DLLs should be fine :P
20:42:07 <olsner> alise: enjoy your VS symbiont
20:42:08 <alise> except that it crashes only after the first reboot
20:42:11 <alise> which makes no sense at all
20:42:14 <alise> so i am abandoning all logic
20:42:21 <Gregor> alise: It crashed immediately after install for me.
20:42:22 <alise> wait maybe it wants a valid product ID :-D
20:42:29 <nooga> oerjan: i understand, but usually teachers are lazy
20:42:30 <oerjan> Gregor: my impression is that polish people are generally looked at favorably in norway (unlike the roma(nians))
20:42:34 <olsner> or whatever you're installing (didn't you say you had VS installed already?)
20:42:51 <Gregor> oerjan: But ... but ... POLLACKS
20:42:51 <alise> Gregor: can I set the organisation to "Greg & Elliott Research Foundation"?
20:42:56 <alise> olsner: There's no VS this far back, noob :P
20:42:57 * Phantom_Hoover notes that those antivax people in the song use Comic Sans on their posters.
20:43:04 <Gregor> alise: My name is not Greg.
20:43:07 <oerjan> (the fact that norway has the lowest unemployment in europe probably helps)
20:43:09 <alise> Gregor: It is now, though.
20:43:10 <Gregor> alise: Also, GERF is a terrible name.
20:43:34 <Gregor> It sounds like the wretching sound you make when throwing up spicy food.
20:44:00 <nooga> pollacks can be annoying
20:44:08 <olsner> alise: VC++ then? which is exactly what I mean when I say VS, usually
20:44:18 <nooga> good i'm not one of them ;]
20:44:24 <Gregor> olsner: VISUAL C SHARP DOT NET
20:44:44 <alise> Gregor: Fine, "Fantabtastic Ontological Richards New Intelligent Coding Apex Technologies Indicating Noodly Greatness"
20:45:28 <oerjan> alise: scrseq n tests the iterations of the list [1..n+1], so it starts with length 2
20:45:30 <olsner> Gregor: because NT is short for dotNeT
20:45:35 <Gregor> It will be the company underlying the Advanced Nonlinear Audio LIbrary and Sound Exchange for X11
20:46:30 <oerjan> alise: my has/have deteriorates when i am writing in a hurry, of course (like now when i'm far up in the backscroll)
20:46:46 <alise> Gregor: And the Fabricator Upsilon Cooking Kit, a miniature CPU fabricator that you can fit on to a large, sturdy table, with an eccentric, Victorian-style manual.
20:47:52 <nooga> laneialanamalanalamaianamama
20:48:03 <alise> And the "Pontificating Only Loquaciously And Never Dying", a miniature Furby-style Jesus.
20:48:10 <alise> nooga is the target market.
20:48:37 <alise> nooga: i am not entirely sure you are not missing the joke entirely
20:48:44 <nooga> even my grandma wouldn't buy that
20:49:17 <nooga> alise: it's POLAND, i know ;p
20:50:12 <alise> ANALSEX, FUCK and POLAND, excellent products -- and all from FORNICATING, Incoproated. Your first choice for all kinds of shit.
20:50:50 <alise> Gregor: You broke something horribly.
20:51:02 <alise> I'm reinstalling. Maybe.
20:51:35 <Gregor> What ever happened to Furby.
20:51:44 <Gregor> alise: You should have kept backups of the hard disk and nvram.
20:51:55 <Gregor> mv c.img c000.img && qemu-img create -f qcow2 -b c000.img c.img
20:51:57 <alise> Gregor: You should never have got her pregnant.
20:52:15 <alise> `addquote <alise> Gregor: You should never have got her pregnant. <Gregor> what whaaaaaaaaaaaat
20:52:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Still bullshit.
20:52:39 <alise> ^Cehird@dinky:~/NT4$ ls
20:52:39 <alise> ARCINST.EXE openbios-ppc-1.0+svn505 README.1ST
20:52:39 <alise> CD openbios-ppc_1.0+svn505.orig.tar.gz RISCOS.RAW
20:52:39 <alise> CONFTEST.EXE openbios-ppc_1.0+svn640-1_all.deb SETUP.EXE
20:52:41 <alise> foo pass setup.zip
20:52:43 <alise> mips.disk ppc_rom.bin shit
20:52:45 <alise> mipsel_bios.bin qemu-0.10.6 simulator.jar
20:52:47 <alise> mol-0.9.72.1 qemu-0.10.6.tar.gz WindowsNT4Server.iso
20:52:49 <alise> msvc20-mips.iso qemu-0.12.5
20:52:51 <alise> nvram qemu-0.12.5.tar.gz
20:53:08 <Gregor> pikhq: It is still BS for a gubernatorial candidate to say that, yes, but he has relevant context.
20:53:48 <alise> "qemu-img create -f qcow2 -b c000.img c.img" ;; what does *this* do?
20:54:02 <Gregor> alise: Creates a COW image with c000.img as the backing image.
20:54:03 <HackEgo> 228|<alise> Gregor: You should never have got her pregnant. <Gregor> what whaaaaaaaaaaaat
20:54:31 <Gregor> pikhq: However, Oregon has the second-highest minimum wage in the country, only behind Washington (and only by 15 cents, though both grow by inflation so the gap will only get larger)
20:55:13 <alise> Gregor: Backing image?
20:56:05 <pikhq> Gregor: Aaand is it still a livable wage?
20:56:20 <pikhq> alise: It's copy on write, BTW.
20:57:05 <Vorpal> huh, apperently .smf is midi and actually more "correct" than the normal .mid
20:58:13 <Vorpal> <alise> do your languages not have a different term for has/have? <---- no why would they?
20:58:27 <Vorpal> <oerjan> (neither does swedish, although they seem to have lost it somewhat later than us i think) <-- we used to have that?
20:58:32 <alise> ANY DISTINCTION MY LANGUAGE DOES NOT MAKE IS AN IRRELEVANT ONE
20:58:46 <alise> BEHOLD MY FIERCE, DENIED NATIONALISM
20:59:25 <Vorpal> alise, that strawman was so bad it was starwars-holiday-special-bad
21:00:04 <alise> oh come on, you're at the very least intensely anti-american
21:00:28 <pikhq> alise: So're many Americans. Your point? :P
21:00:51 <alise> pikhq: at least they complain about things that *matter*
21:01:10 <alise> Vorpal just whines whenever anyone says "United States" and then doesn't also say a European country
21:01:20 <alise> because Sweden is as big and important as the United States of America
21:01:21 <Vorpal> that was at most anti-English, not anti-American specifically...
21:01:31 <alise> i'm just trying to piss you off
21:02:23 <alise> Gregor: I NEED THE PRODUCT KEY AGAIN DUDEY DUDE
21:02:31 <Gregor> alise: I'm not at home, check the logs.
21:02:37 <alise> Gregor: OKAY DUDEY DUDE
21:02:43 <Gregor> Ohwait I PMed it so it's not in the logs :P
21:02:44 <alise> /QUERY GREGOR WORKS IN UPPERCASE THIS MAKES ME HAPPY
21:02:56 <alise> check your unborn mother's log
21:03:37 <alise> And I quote, "FUCKING 28997-OEM-0025957-49297"
21:03:44 <alise> [Gregor gets sent to jail]
21:03:54 * pikhq hates Monkey audio
21:03:55 <alise> Vorpal: in my defence, it always works
21:04:00 <alise> apart from it sucking
21:04:00 <Vorpal> alise, since I was not whining at all it didn't really work
21:04:02 <pikhq> Erm. Monkey's audio
21:04:09 <pikhq> alise: "Monkey's Audio source can be included in GPL and open-source software, although Monkey's Audio itself will not be subjected to external licensing requirements or other viral source restrictions."
21:04:13 <pikhq> The fail is strong with this one.
21:04:19 <Vorpal> alise, no, it did not change basic pissedoffness against you
21:04:28 <Vorpal> alise, I'm *always* pissed off with you
21:04:28 <pikhq> Also, some idiot made a torrent using .ape files instead of FLAC
21:04:45 <alise> Gregor: is 1024 concurrent connections really enough?
21:04:49 <alise> Gregor: I suggest 8096.
21:06:05 <pikhq> What moron uses Monkey's Audio for actual distribution, anyways?
21:06:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, apart from the legal issues, is it actually any good?
21:07:08 <alise> pretty sure it predates flac
21:07:23 <Gregor> alise: Fantastic since we can't even get ONE inbound connection usefully :P
21:07:27 <Vorpal> from what I remember wavpack is pretty good
21:07:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, connections for what?
21:08:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it rejects evolution
21:08:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's got a slightly higher compression ratio, and is much more expensive to decode.
21:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> If all state transitions maintain cell counts, then organisms need food.
21:08:34 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: That's why I made my GC non-conservative.
21:08:39 <oerjan> Vorpal: example from swedish bible: 2 Mosebok 1:1 Och dessa äro namnen på Israels söner, som kommo till Egypten
21:08:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: Specifically: decoding and encoding take the same time.
21:09:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, that is not uncommon. isn't it the case for bz2 too?
21:09:13 <alise> Gregor: did you install NetBEUI?
21:09:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i was joking
21:09:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: It sucks for an audio format, though.
21:09:30 <Gregor> Vorpal: But bz2 sucks arse, lzma for the win :P
21:09:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: FLAC, in comparison, can reasonably be decoded faster-than-realtime on a 50 MHz CPU.
21:09:58 <Gregor> alise: If that's an alternative to TCP/IP then no. If that's something else, then I installed it if it was on by default.
21:10:10 <alise> Gregor: it's one of the networking options
21:10:21 <Gregor> alise: As in, one of the networking PROTOCOLS?
21:10:28 <Gregor> alise: One that you can choose as well as TCP/IP?
21:10:31 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Vorpal: But bz2 sucks arse, lzma for the win :P <-- true
21:10:36 <Gregor> alise: I only enabled TCP/IP.
21:10:38 <Vorpal> but lzma hasn't been around that long
21:10:38 <alise> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBIOS
21:10:43 <alise> but others are enabled by default
21:10:50 <Vorpal> bz2 used to be the default choice just 2-3 years ago
21:10:54 <Gregor> alise: That was my only change from the default.
21:11:20 <alise> GREGOR: WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT
21:11:27 <Gregor> alise: I only wanted TCP/IP
21:11:49 <Vorpal> that's an absurd attack
21:12:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, how does wavpack and flac compare?
21:12:17 <fizzie> Gregor: But did you instal... IPX? (How could you live without!)
21:12:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, what about SCTP over IPv6?
21:12:49 <Vorpal> (develop support if missing)
21:12:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, write the drivers for it!
21:13:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, it needs to be done!
21:13:23 <Vorpal> Gregor, tunneling over ipsec using X502 certificates of course :P
21:13:39 <Vorpal> probably painful to implement that
21:14:00 <alise> fizzie: *install, fascist
21:14:18 <Vorpal> alise, did you not notice the ...?
21:14:29 <Vorpal> alise, obviously he ended in the middle of a word
21:15:50 <Gregor> Completing words is for the we--
21:16:17 <oerjan> Vorpal: if you look at http://sv.bibelsite.com/exodus/1-1.htm you see that the danish and norwegian versions have no plural endings. although they are/may be a couple decades younger. and the bible may of course be written more traditionally than other texts
21:17:07 <Vorpal> oerjan, well yes for var and such. But for "har" specifically I meant
21:17:17 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how you would go about designing a conservative CA.
21:17:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't think it is "haro" at least
21:17:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, define what you mean by a conservative CA?
21:17:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: they surely must exist
21:17:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: Wavpack is very slightly better than FLAC, but less supported.
21:17:55 <alise> Vorpal: preserves cell count on all transitions
21:18:09 <oerjan> Vorpal: hm well "kommo" has a plural so it would be strange if har didn't
21:18:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, doesn't that mean that energy can never be created or destroyed? ME LIKEY
21:18:23 <alise> means you need an infinite plane though if you want utopia :)
21:18:25 <Vorpal> well, there is an obvious one
21:18:28 <alise> infinite plane tiled with food
21:18:31 <alise> Vorpal: "id", har har
21:18:48 <alise> IIS supports gopher, so cool so COOL
21:18:52 <Vorpal> alise, that one too, but I didn't think of that one
21:19:05 <Vorpal> alise, I was thinking "move everything one cell left each turn"
21:19:34 <Vorpal> alise, and invert would not preserve it? Or what do you mean
21:19:46 <alise> left? wrapping, presumably
21:19:51 <alise> since CAs are neighbourhood-based
21:19:57 <alise> that's sort of the point
21:20:02 <alise> also, true, invert wouldn't XD
21:20:04 <Vorpal> hm, more than 2 states
21:20:11 <alise> perfectly possible
21:20:14 <alise> transition rules get ugly though
21:20:17 <oerjan> Vorpal: i would expect "havo", but that gives no hits
21:20:21 <alise> often done, though
21:20:36 <Vorpal> alise, it should be possible to do "move one left" by having more than 2 states, no?
21:20:50 <alise> Gregor: The WINE version remembers time. Er, wait, actually I haven't closed QEMU once.
21:20:58 <alise> Vorpal: Uhh, sure, I guess.
21:21:07 <Vorpal> alise, as long as you only count "any on" vs. "off"
21:21:23 <Vorpal> alise, it would be rather painful to get working I suspect
21:21:31 <alise> you only need one colour
21:21:38 <alise> and the next generation,
21:21:45 <alise> the cell to the left can pull it to its side
21:21:48 <alise> and the one can die out
21:22:08 <Vorpal> alise, lets settle for "might be possible" then
21:22:59 <alise> it's possible. probably.
21:23:02 <alise> yes it is possible
21:23:24 <Vorpal> alise, this is getting absurd now you know
21:23:37 <Vorpal> alise, who should stop what?
21:23:41 <alise> Vorpal: stop talking about it
21:23:45 <alise> it is make me confuse
21:23:48 <Vorpal> alise, talking about what?
21:24:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, neighborhood:vonNeumann ?
21:24:19 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Downloads/golly-2.1-src$ make -f makefile-gtk bgolly
21:24:19 <alise> g++ `wx-config --cxxflags` -O5 -DZLIB -DVERSION=2.1 -Wall -Wno-non-virtual-dtor -fno-strict-aliasing -c -o ObjGTK/bigint.o bigint.cpp
21:24:19 <alise> Assembler messages:
21:24:19 <alise> Fatal error: can't create ObjGTK/bigint.o: No such file or directory
21:24:27 * alise compiles regular golly first
21:24:30 <alise> which creates the directory
21:24:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: on linux? no thanks
21:24:46 <alise> Vorpal: batch version of golly
21:24:48 <alise> just compiling it for completeness
21:25:12 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I was in a rush and couldn't be bothered kicking my way through 10^3 dependencies.
21:25:22 <alise> there's like 0 dependencies
21:25:24 <Vorpal> um it doesn't have that
21:25:25 <alise> you just install wxwidgets dev
21:25:29 <Vorpal> gtk. that's about it iirc
21:25:31 <oerjan> "Plural forms of verbs were made optional in Swedish secondary schools in 1944 and had fully disappeared by 1970."
21:25:48 <alise> also optionally python and perl but you already have them :P
21:25:59 <oerjan> which is rather later than both the danish and norwegian in the previous link
21:26:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm, and what about "har"?
21:26:49 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm "hava" but that might be yet another archaic version. Don't think it is third person stuff at least
21:26:54 <oerjan> "The -om/-en forms were used in the 1917 Swedish translation of the Bible, although they had already been obsolete for a long time."
21:27:01 <alise> wxpython.cpp:330: error: ‘G_PyErr_SetString’ cannot be used as a function
21:27:03 <oerjan> (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Swedish_obsolete_verb_forms)
21:27:05 <alise> correction, needs python development libraries
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21:27:19 <Vorpal> alise, then python support is broken in golly
21:27:24 <Vorpal> or at least was half a year ago
21:27:29 <alise> Vorpal: yeah half a year ago :P
21:27:31 <alise> probably works now
21:27:33 <alise> i think it worked quite recently
21:27:37 <alise> x86 is such an ugly name
21:27:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Changes in version 2.1 (released September 2009)
21:28:06 <Vorpal> alise, m68000 is a lot nicer
21:28:16 <alise> 68k is a nice name
21:28:18 <alise> so is ppc, alpha, mips
21:28:28 <Vorpal> alise, I intentionally used it's full name :P
21:28:31 <alise> ia32 is "better" but intel-specific and ia64 doesn't mean what you think it means
21:28:58 <alise> maybe sa32/sa64, for standard architecture :P
21:29:02 <alise> pa32/pa64, pc architecture
21:29:18 <Vorpal> alise, I read the latter one has ppc first somehow
21:29:45 <alise> x86_64 is undoubtedly the ugliest name, though
21:29:57 <alise> can we *please* just let the underscore die anywhere within a km of prose?
21:30:00 <Vorpal> alise, wikipedia mentions these names for 68k: 680x0/m68k/68k/68K
21:30:08 <alise> 68k is obviously the most pleasing
21:30:23 <Vorpal> alise, and no we need the underscore to not break target triplets
21:30:31 <oerjan> Vorpal: it might be hava, that page says most verbs used the same form as the infinitive (which was hava previously) and those are not listed
21:30:37 <Vorpal> alise, like x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu
21:30:39 <alise> and legacy design because of that flaw :P
21:30:44 <alise> no need to *call* it that
21:30:55 <alise> x86-64 is infinitely preferable
21:31:10 <Vorpal> alise, yes we should all say "ex eight six underscore six four" :P
21:31:31 <alise> i pronounce it "ex eight six sixty-four"
21:31:49 <Vorpal> alise, not eighty six?
21:32:00 <alise> wxperl.cpp:(.text+0x3f88): undefined reference to `Perl_newSV_type'
21:32:03 <alise> BUT I INSTALLED IT ;_;
21:32:12 <alise> because i call x86 "ex eight six"
21:32:20 <alise> it's not even eighty-six really
21:32:31 <Vorpal> alise, hm I call x86 "ex åttiosex"
21:32:34 <alise> i mean sort of, but eh
21:32:38 <Vorpal> (go on, have fun at Swedish)
21:32:51 <Vorpal> alise, en:six = sv:sex
21:33:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you had said augur instead I wounder have understood the joke
21:33:27 <Vorpal> but this makes no sense
21:33:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't log read unless I'm highlighted
21:33:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I DON'T SEE WHY I SHOULD HAVE TO EXPLAIN THINGS WHICH YOU WOULD KNOW IF YOU HAD READ THE LOG
21:34:03 <Vorpal> god I wish this ircd had +B
21:34:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh I would explain if you asked, nicely
21:34:38 <oerjan> Vorpal: ah found a nicely archaic one :D "Huru hava icke hjältarna fallit i striden!" (2 Samuelsbokem 1:25)
21:34:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, um... I'm not completely sure what it means
21:35:04 <Vorpal> the main message I get yes
21:35:09 <Vorpal> but not why it is "hava" there
21:35:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: LDFLAGS+=-lperl instead spits out wx errors
21:35:25 <oerjan> Vorpal: because hjältarna is plural?
21:35:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, isn't hava about infinitive or something such strange?
21:36:10 <oerjan> Vorpal: it's infinite _and_ plural, as i guessed above
21:36:19 <oerjan> most verbs used the same form for both
21:36:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, so what about present tense and plural?
21:36:39 <oerjan> well that's what i meant
21:36:55 <Vorpal> I thought you meant infinite-plural vs. present-plural
21:37:52 <oerjan> afaik infinitive hasn't had a plural since ancient times
21:40:03 <oerjan> you will note that infinitive and (3rd person) plural coincide for most verbs in english and german as well
21:41:42 <Vorpal> anyway, what was that about sgeo
21:42:02 <oerjan> hm wait neither english nor german distinguish persons for plural verbs afair
21:42:32 <oerjan> Vorpal: to have, they have. zu haben, sie haben. i think they do.
21:42:50 <Vorpal> it is only different there for third person singular
21:42:57 <oerjan> Vorpal: that's not infinitive!
21:43:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh right, thought we were talking about present tense again?
21:43:37 <oerjan> Vorpal: well i just chose 3rd person present plural as the form i was sure both english and german tended to make equal to the infinitive
21:43:54 <oerjan> (3rd person actually was redundant there)
21:44:18 <oerjan> english of course uses it for 1st and 2nd person singular too
21:44:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't think Swedish handled third person singular different than first person singular though?
21:45:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, just singular/plural
21:45:29 <oerjan> Vorpal: not in relatively modern times, i guess. the page i linked _does_ mention it at one time distinguished different _plural_ persons
21:45:44 <Vorpal> I'm glad I live now and not then
21:46:11 <oerjan> old norse distinguished all forms of course, to the degree that it could leave out pronouns iirc
21:47:24 <alise> The Golly application can be installed anywhere you like, but make
21:47:24 <alise> sure you move the whole folder because the various subfolders must
21:47:24 <alise> be kept with the application.
21:47:25 <oerjan> like several modern romance languages do (italian and i believe spanish)
21:47:27 <alise> I love how awful that is.
21:47:29 <alise> Don't you, Phantom_Hoover?
21:47:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, very risc I guess
21:48:04 <Vorpal> oerjan, few instructions, lots of flags
21:48:05 <oerjan> icelandic might still leave out pronouns, i'm not sure
21:48:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, icelandic is a class on it's own
21:48:45 <oerjan> well yeah but it's closer to old norse than any other living language
21:48:54 <alise> How can I test Python support?
21:48:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I got it working.
21:48:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, well actually Finnish might be able to compete with Icelandic in convolutedness
21:49:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: make clean && make -f makefile-gtk LDFLAGS+="-lperl $(wx-config --libs)"
21:49:17 <alise> make -f makefile-gtk clean && make -f makefile-gtk LDFLAGS+="-lperl $(wx-config --libs)"
21:49:23 <Vorpal> alise, that langtons-ant-in-life used python iirc
21:49:43 <oerjan> well naturally. finnish has plenty of person endings, i don't recall if they leave out pronouns regularly though
21:49:57 <Vorpal> alise, since it emulates it all in life iirc
21:49:58 <oerjan> hungarian does though, a slightly related language to finnish
21:50:07 <Vorpal> or what Phantom_Hoover said
21:50:19 <alise> They're all .rles.
21:50:37 <oerjan> fizzie: does finnish leave out many personal pronouns?
21:51:00 <alise> scripts were hidden
21:51:15 <alise> lacks Py_InitModule4.
21:51:24 <alise> I'll build it 32-bit.
21:52:28 <alise> Because that's not terribly reliable and why do they use -O5.
21:53:23 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Downloads/golly-2.1-src$ make -f makefile-gtk CXXFLAGS+="-m32" LDFLAGS+="-m32 -lperl $(wx-config --libs)"
21:53:34 <alise> Okay, I need 32-bit wx libs.
21:53:48 <alise> Now how can I get them?
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21:54:21 <Vorpal> alise, I meant that they used -O5 with
21:54:23 -!- Slereah has quit.
21:54:24 <alise> Grr @ how few lib32 packages there are.
21:54:25 <Vorpal> alise, iirc clang goes to 5
21:54:37 <Vorpal> is *THAT* was clang is about?
21:54:50 <Vorpal> very well, easy to beat then
21:54:59 * Vorpal makes a fork that goes to 11
21:55:46 <Vorpal> alise, ah it goes to -O4
21:55:50 <Vorpal> still, one more than gcc
21:55:54 <Vorpal> the pattern is obvious
21:56:01 <alise> InitModule, you mean.
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21:56:13 * alise downloads the binary in exasperation
21:56:32 <Ilari> Would likely be cool pattern: Still-life that when hit by one glider in suitable way transforms into caterpillar. :-)
21:56:52 <Vorpal> alise, basically the issue is that they try to load it dynamically and fail badly at handling python macro stuff
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21:57:18 <alise> 32-bit golly works
21:57:28 <Vorpal> alise, golly isn't slow?
21:57:48 <Vorpal> alise, um, it is snappy for me on my thinkpad. 64-bit binary of course
21:57:50 <alise> i just tried the 64-bit one
21:57:58 <alise> and the 32-bit one
21:58:07 <alise> well not that sluggish
21:58:09 <alise> 64-bit is more sluggish
21:58:23 <Vorpal> alise, I never had that issue
21:58:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: is there a chained gosper gun anywhere in the standard collection?
21:59:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I invented it independently, but someone else probably did it, since it's pretty obvious..
21:59:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a matter of lining up multiple QB shuttles so they all interact to make the glider-producing reaction.
21:59:55 <alise> Do upload an rle file.
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22:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> To add shuttles, delete the end block and add another shuttle when the previous end one reaches the right phase.
22:04:41 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: what is that?
22:05:40 <Phantom_Hoover> So if you have QaQbB where B is a block and Qa and Qb are relevant phases of the shuttle, QaQb → QcQa → QcQaQbB
22:05:58 <nooga> what kind of CA is this?
22:06:06 <nooga> what are those symbols
22:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I think the Gosper gun principle can be extended to the twin bee guns.
22:08:18 <olsner> gosper gun is a very fun word
22:08:53 <olsner> is it a gun for use by gospers (I'm thinking that would be something similar to a half-human gopher), or is it a gun that shoots gospers?
22:09:16 <Vorpal> <olsner> gosper gun is a very fun word <-- not as fun as "gospel gun" though
22:10:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, such as: http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=134P39.1
22:10:21 <Vorpal> that's a cool name I guess
22:10:44 <Vorpal> (random click on the wiki got there there)
22:10:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, more like Herschel technology, the lightspeed telegraph etc.
22:11:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is not the majority though
22:11:19 <Phantom_Hoover> There's an oscillator called the pentadecathlon, and another called the candlefrobra.
22:12:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, interesting and useful objects have nice names, though.
22:13:14 <Phantom_Hoover> And the catacryst and metacatacryst. Mustn't forget them.
22:14:36 <olsner> switch engine, sounds like a kind of hyperdrive
22:15:15 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, we do often leave out the pronouns in favour of suffixes.
22:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> (Most puffers work by having a bit of junk acting as the engine, which is stabilised by a spaceship escort.)
22:17:22 <olsner> this is quite awesome, terminologically speaking
22:17:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Corderships are a number of switch engines arranged so that they clean up their own debris.
22:17:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Although they can be made to do all sorts of cool things.
22:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Interestingly, Corderships can survive a couple of hits from a glider or other object.
22:19:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it takes out an engine or two and turns it into a puffer.
22:23:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself).
22:26:38 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC there was a p14 gun somewhere, but I can't remember exactly.
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22:43:19 <alise> Gregor: I will now reinstall MSVC++.
22:43:21 <alise> And then never turn it off.
22:44:00 <alise> Gregor: Dude, this is NT. I think it was 95 -- no, 98 -- that a bug when if you left it on for too long it overflowed 2^32 ms and froze.
22:44:06 <alise> I don't have much better hopes for NT 4 on MIPS
22:45:52 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
22:46:02 <olsner> 2^32ms is about 7 weeks
22:46:24 <olsner> but please do leave it on for 7 weeks just to see what happens to it
22:47:16 <Gregor> This is a server OS. I'm sure that there was a REAL MIPS NT 4 system that reliably ran for more than 7 weeks.
22:47:31 <olsner> maybe it was scheduled to reboot every 6 weeks
22:47:35 <alise> are you so sure about that, Gregor :P
22:47:47 <alise> this is Windows and ISS here, not exactly the paragon of stability
22:47:59 <alise> it probably crashes before you can ever reach 7 weeks uptime
22:48:04 <alise> nothing supports NT 4
22:49:34 <Gregor> The Playstation Move controller is 100% more dildesque than the Wii controller.
22:49:39 <Gregor> Even taking the name "Wii" into account.
22:49:48 <alise> FIRST LOGON SO SLOW
22:49:59 <alise> Gregor: Do a comparative test and upload it to YouTube.
22:50:48 <alise> The sphere at the top is just so kooky.
22:50:55 <alise> Also how the hell am I meant to hit those four auxiliary buttons? They so tiny
22:51:37 <pikhq> AAAGH THE TAGS ARENT IN MUSICBRAINZ
22:51:59 <Gregor> A Comparative Study of the Utility as a Sexual Aid of Motion-Based Game Controllers for the Wii, PlayStation 3 and X-Box 360
22:53:24 <oerjan> this study is a wii bit out of the x-box
22:53:35 <alise> Gregor: WHY IS IT SO SLOW TO START WITH
22:53:42 <alise> Gregor: *Xbox, also
22:53:51 <alise> yes, that capitalisation is horrible
22:53:55 <alise> yes, it's the correct one
22:54:10 <Gregor> alise: This is a research paper, it was supposed to be intentionally wrongish :P
22:54:31 <alise> Bananas in My Space, or, A Comparative Study of the Utility as a Sexual Aid of Motion-Based Game Controllers for the Wii, PlayStation 3 and X-Box 360
22:54:58 <alise> A paper targeted at the cross-section of people who have read classic functional programming papers and want to use game console controllers as dildos.
22:55:03 <alise> ... wait, what the hell @ xbox 360
22:55:07 <alise> HOW DOES THAT EVEN
22:55:17 <alise> that does *not* go anywhere near anyone's anus. new rule.
22:55:37 <alise> Natal/Kinect doesn't even have a controller, so lawl
22:56:37 <Gregor> The camera for it is a LITTLE bit dildesque.
22:57:24 <alise> Gregor: Reinstalling MSVC++2
22:57:36 <Gregor> Just use it from the console
22:57:59 <alise> ...so basically, using Kinect's controller as a dildo = self-fisting
22:58:13 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/KinectSensor.png This is not a phallic camera at all, dude, what the hell are you on?
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23:02:39 <nooga> i wonder how they produce them
23:03:39 <oerjan> clearly they use casts
23:05:18 <Gregor> I can't imagine it's more complicated than pouring something into a mold and allowing it to dry.
23:06:51 <Gregor> Idonno, some kind of molten soft plastic or something?
23:07:16 <nooga> try to melt goddamn plastic
23:08:22 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Dankogai ;; we have a semi-famous guy on the wiki!
23:08:40 <alise> pikhq: Former CTO of Livedoor is on our wiki. Apparently.
23:09:36 <nooga> Gregor: then it will burn
23:10:26 <alise> Gregor: Waddafuh? VC++ crashes from the start now.
23:10:47 <nooga> livedoor -> moon runes
23:11:21 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:13:27 <fizzie> There's that injection molding thing; I guess with many plastics you can't quite get it molten enough for regular cast molding, but it goes soft enough that you can use a suitable plunger-style tool to squirt it inside a mold.
23:14:12 <alise> Gregor: *How* can it break a second time like this?!
23:14:50 <alise> burnt plastic is cool
23:19:25 <oerjan> rubbish, it's hot. at least initially.
23:21:01 <fizzie> So... burnt plastic is cool, but rubbish in general is hot?
23:21:48 <oerjan> i was hoping you wouldn't notice that.
23:23:29 <alise> Gregor: Um, how do we extract archives on this thing?
23:23:51 <Gregor> alise: Archive O' Magic has tar and g[un]zip
23:24:01 <alise> Gregor: Archive O' Magic? XD
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23:24:42 <Gregor> alise: Oh find it your damn self
23:25:05 <alise> http://vpsland.superglobalmegacorp.com/install/WindowsNT4.0-MIPS/
23:25:40 <alise> How to get a link there: bit.ly it and type the result out :P http://bit.ly/bhSZjs (gunzip)
23:26:01 <alise> Gregor: This is my favourite operating system.
23:26:04 <alise> You must port gelfload.
23:26:08 <alise> It would be exquisite.
23:26:22 <alise> bitly links don't work
23:26:33 <alise> http://tinyurl.com/3xogy4h
23:26:43 <alise> Nor tinyurl, crap.
23:27:12 <fizzie> Info-ZIP's zip/unzip seems to have NT/{Alpha,PPC,MIPS} binaries; though this was just a filename listing, didn't verify that they actually exist somewhere.
23:27:25 <alise> Gregor: You know... if you substitute words other than "MIPS" into that link... well...
23:27:47 <alise> ...not much, admittedly.
23:27:56 <Gregor> alise: Yeah, I already tried :P
23:28:02 <Gregor> alise: Not much there.
23:28:05 <alise> There's directories without the 4.0, too.
23:28:08 <alise> But with rachitectures.
23:28:22 <Gregor> You realize there's a directory listing, right? :P
23:28:28 <alise> YOUR MOM IS A DIRECTORY LISTING
23:29:10 <alise> Say, where the hell is the desktop stored?
23:30:30 <alise> Ew, in a huge directory.
23:31:21 <alise> Gregor: IE 2 STORES NO HISTORY AAAAA
23:31:47 <alise> Hmm, unzip would be nice.
23:31:52 <alise> (I'm trying to do lynx.)
23:32:11 <alise> Gregor: My SINGLE REQUEST is that you unzip, tar up, and upload a single file.
23:35:28 <alise> tug.ctan.org (US) [FROZEN]
23:35:28 <alise> ftp.tex.ac.uk (UK) [FROZEN]
23:35:28 <alise> ftp.dante.de (Germany) [FROZEN]
23:37:05 <alise> 331 Guest login ok, send your complete e-mail address as password.
23:37:50 <alise> lawl they no longer carry it
23:38:02 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/ncmips.tar
23:38:15 <alise> Gregor: I don't want netcat, dood
23:38:32 <Gregor> Well then SCREWWWWWWW YOUUUUUUUUUU
23:40:02 <alise> As of 2009, the latest sources and binaries for Zip, UnZip, WiZ and MacZip (including encryption code) are available at ftp.info-zip.org and Info-ZIP's SourceForge site.
23:40:19 <Gregor> Why do you need zip so much?
23:40:33 <alise> To unpack the Lynx/Win32 sources. To compile them, y'see.
23:40:56 <Gregor> So download them on your desktop, extract and tar them, then transfer them via netcat.
23:40:57 <Gregor> Too simple to bother so much about.
23:41:05 <Gregor> Or hell, stick it on filebin.ca
23:41:13 <Gregor> If you're so netcat-incompetent.
23:42:13 * alise looks for Info-Zip Win32 MIPS
23:42:20 <alise> ftp://ftp.info-zip.org/pub/infozip/win32/ PHAIL
23:42:40 <alise> zip23xN-mip.zip WinNT (MIPS R4000) executables and docs (no encryption)
23:42:40 <alise> zcr23xN-mip.zip WinNT (MIPS R4000) executables and docs (with encryption)
23:42:53 <alise> SO PHAILINGLY PHAILURE
23:43:01 <alise> 526906 Aug 12 1997 unz531xN-mip.exe UnZip 5.31, NT MIPS exes/docs
23:44:03 <pikhq> alise: Why is it that music is the only thing with a commonly-supported, reasonable metadata format?
23:45:45 <pikhq> I mean, why is it that pretty much all we've got for video playing is "pick file. It movie."?
23:46:50 <pikhq> (whereas for most music players, that it's in a *file* is merely an implementation detail that sometimes gets shoved in your face)
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23:52:37 <alise> oh thank god i thought my connection failed
23:53:15 <alise> i have a serious internet addiction
23:53:18 <alise> pikhq: http://pastie.org/1185331.txt?key=mmcq0m8woxnooltgad4gpg
23:53:22 <alise> pikhq: relevant to you
23:53:36 <alise> the internet is just a so much better interface to the world than the world is :P
23:54:19 <alise> pikhq: actually a generic metadata-for-everything might not be such a terrible idea
23:54:22 <alise> not xml-based, though
23:55:12 <alise> pikhq: sorry the url is bad
23:56:20 <alise> pikhq: btw i blame you entirely.
23:56:52 -!- Kordalien has joined.
23:57:28 <alise> pikhq: Mmmmf to what? Also, TOTALLY BLAMED
23:57:32 <pikhq> There is *less* sense in video not having reasonable metadata than, oh, anything else.
23:57:41 <pikhq> Well, except maybe music. That would be pain.
23:59:06 <alise> pikhq will never ask me what I blame him for.
23:59:33 <alise> Whyy is filebin broken
00:03:56 <Gregor> Man Buys Segway Inc., Dies on Segway
00:04:27 <alise> just imagine though
00:04:31 <alise> driving off a cliff on a Segway
00:04:35 <alise> 1) how the hell do you manage to do that?!
00:04:40 <alise> 2) MOST AWESOME LAST SECONDS OF LIFE EVER
00:04:51 <Gregor> Apparently he died after he "plunged 30 feet off a rocky cliff"
00:05:07 <Gregor> So, now Segways will have a warning label: "WARNING: This device does not protect against gravity."
00:05:18 <alise> how stupid do you have to be like
00:05:25 <alise> you're near the edge of a cliff - firstly why are you there -
00:05:29 <alise> secondly how do you keep leaning forwards to the edge
00:05:31 <alise> and then not stop leaning forwards
00:05:35 <alise> and freaking lean off the edge of the cliff
00:05:40 <alise> IT IS NOT HARD TO STOP A SEGWAY MOVING
00:06:13 <alise> Gregor: Can I netcat you something for ultra-temporary storage on codu? :P
00:07:03 <Gregor> alise: Why would you need that? Just transfer it guest-to-host
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02:09:44 <Quadlex> Are elves sensitive to chromium kinda like humans who can't eat Gluten?
02:09:56 <Quadlex> "Oh, no lembas for me please, I've got Coealiac"
02:10:14 <oerjan> Quadlex: iron, usually. but Gregor is a special case.
02:10:15 <Gregor> No, they're like humans that are sensitive to chromium X-P
02:10:31 <Quadlex> Or is it like jews and pork?
02:10:39 <Quadlex> oerjan: Ahh, I see. So he's a freak then:P
02:11:08 <Quadlex> Girls SAY they want a sensitive guy, but they get disgusted the first time you cry when Sesamie Street is over for the day
02:11:21 <oerjan> very freaky. i hear he's got a foot picture.
02:11:37 <Gregor> And you can see it, if you'd like (to vomit)
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03:02:21 * Sgeo is way too tired to think properly
03:02:37 <oerjan> Sgeo: logic is overrated anyhow
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03:10:55 <Sgeo> Question: Did I get noticably more hyper after, say, summer 2009?
03:11:37 <Gregor> Is that when you stopped taking the pills?
03:11:56 <Sgeo> As a matter of fact, yes
03:12:39 <Gregor> In that case: Is that when you developed a hyperbroad Long Iiiiiiiiiisland accent? :P
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03:20:41 <Sgeo> Tried that. Couldn't swallow it
03:20:58 <Sgeo> Um, in Concerta form
03:21:37 <Quadlex> I recently had to go back on it
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03:39:01 <Gregor> I just did a search of cars for the maximum fuel economy.
03:39:06 <Gregor> They also had a list by MINIMUM fuel economy.
03:39:10 <Gregor> What I was expecting: SUVs.
03:39:13 <Gregor> What I found: sports cars.
03:39:23 <Gregor> WTF? Sports cars get bad mileage? Why do they even exist?
03:40:12 <Gregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Murciélago How can a car this streamlined get 13MPG /highway/? SUVs get 13MPG /city/? WTFWTFWTF
03:44:29 <Quadlex> It has to carry the passenger's ego
03:44:41 <lament> Gregor: it accelerates really quickly
03:44:50 <Gregor> Quadlex: Ahhhhhhh of course.
03:44:59 <Gregor> lament: But surely it doesn't need all that power to MAINTAIN SPEED ON A HIGHWAY X_X
03:45:11 <Gregor> That is, it doesn't just waste energy
03:46:25 <lament> presumably in order to accelerate really quickly you have to design the engine in such a way that it's minimum power output is still really high
03:46:40 <lament> it has a ton of cylinders and stuff
03:47:01 <lament> also, what speed is that? the speed limit, or the usual speed of a lambo driver?
03:47:03 <Gregor> People who drive these should be shot.
03:51:19 <lament> Gregor: you'll love this site http://www.wreckedexotics.com/
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06:07:01 <coppro> poll: what's the most ridiculous thing you've ever seen printed in hardcopy
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06:12:02 <Sgeo> "The safe times [for sex] are the week before and the week of ovulation." [Note: I only saw that in a book of stupidest things ever said]
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06:34:57 <Sgeo> So, in the comments of one of Diaspora's page's statuses, I mention the security issues and post a link
06:35:24 <Sgeo> "@[my name], its the internet, security on here isnt real"
06:35:36 <Sgeo> (Note: THat's not one of the devs)
06:36:23 <coppro> Sgeo: the dumbest thing I've ever seen in print is the GCC 3.4 manual. Can you top that?
06:36:52 <Sgeo> What's bad about the GCC 3.4 manual?
06:37:18 <coppro> also someone went through and nitpicked all the errors
06:37:40 <coppro> and someone got a GCC dev to sign it (he wrote "et al." after Richard Stallman on the cover).
06:37:47 <coppro> the dedication was "get a life you dumb fucks"
06:43:16 <Gregor> laaaaaaawl at signing it by writing "et al."
06:44:23 <coppro> Gregor: he also signed it properly inside
06:44:32 <coppro> there are some other gems
06:44:46 <coppro> I've been told that at one point he wrote 'you missed one', but I haven't actually seen it
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07:41:12 <Quadlex> Blog updated, my work on the internet is done
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12:58:59 <webquint> To whomever was asking about quines that execute themselves into infinity, I found a really cute example: kbde.sourceforge.net/kbde/man/kbde.1.html
12:59:24 <webquint> "kbde --key=ArrowU --key=Enter --background Under bash shell will do something cool."
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13:38:56 <ais523> hi people, I need a quick insanity check:
13:39:20 <ais523> a) does anyone know of a dynamically scoped call-by-name language? b) how insane am I to have invented/reinvented dynamically scoped lambda calculus?
13:39:41 <ais523> sample code: (\y.y)(\f.f(y(f)))
13:46:20 <Vorpal> absurd, taking the train was actually cheaper than the bus today.
13:46:35 <Vorpal> not much, but usually it is the other way around
13:49:38 <Vorpal> only downside is that with buses around here, if you change to another one then the cost of the first travel is substracted from the second travel. And due to that not working on trains, the total ended up a tiny amount more expensive with the train. But at least I didn't have to wait an hour (the first bus was late, so I missed the connection). And I arrived home before that other bus would have got me
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13:51:47 <Vorpal> ais523_, hi, I guess you missed what I said?
13:52:02 <ais523> [13:45] <Vorpal> absurd, taking the train was actually cheaper than the bus today.
13:52:03 <ais523> [13:46] <Vorpal> not much, but usually it is the other way around
13:54:44 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> only downside is that with buses around here, if you change to another one then the cost of the first travel is substracted from the second travel. And due to that not working on trains, the total ended up a tiny amount more expensive with the train. But at least I didn't have to wait an hour (the first bus was late, so I missed the connection). And I arrived home before that other bus would ha
13:54:50 <Vorpal> ais523, missed that then
13:55:16 <ais523> Vorpal: heh, here in the UK it's the opposite
13:55:28 <Vorpal> ais523, and yeah, it ended up just 5 SEK more expensive after adding in the "couldn't substract the first travel from the second"
13:55:33 <ais523> on buses, you have to pay for each bus separately, or else buy a day ticket that's more expensive but works on any number of buses
13:55:42 <Vorpal> which is iirc about 0.5 £ or such
13:55:56 <ais523> on the trains, the cost of the journey depends on the endpoints
13:55:59 <ais523> (except in a few cases, sometimes you're banned from going via London)
13:57:07 <Vorpal> atrapado, well here it is that if you take another bus within 3 hours, of the last travel then you can discount. Inside the same zone (the city is one zone) that means 0 for the second travel. With country side busses that mean a reduced price.
13:57:18 <Vorpal> or if you go from country bus to city bus, 0 cost for second travel
13:57:25 <ais523> Vorpal: I think you mispinged
13:58:38 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, I couldn't go by tain the whole way, I need to take bus to university, The station and the university are like at opposite ends of the city
13:59:09 <ais523> heh, here the station is as close to the University as it could theoretically be without being within University control
13:59:09 <Vorpal> and well, the switch to country side bus is just next to the station. Like 5 meters away actually.
13:59:29 <ais523> the station's even called "University"
13:59:34 <ais523> (amusingly, it doesn't actually say which one)
13:59:44 <ais523> but I normally take the bus, even though it doesn't go /quite/ as near
13:59:46 <Vorpal> ais523, for trains that's a bit strange
14:00:10 <ais523> it depends on where the station is, I suppose
14:00:19 <ais523> near a university and a major hospital is a rather obvious place for a station
14:00:40 <ais523> (Birmingham's large enough that it has many tens of stations, not just Birmingham New Street in the centre)
14:00:41 <Vorpal> I mean, the bus station next to the university is "Universitetet" (The University). Well I didn't travel from that one today, I went from one at the opposite side of the university. Still close
14:01:05 <Vorpal> but with city buses that isn't really a problem, two universities in one city is not likely
14:01:31 <Vorpal> ais523, hm two train stations in the university city here. One in the town I live in
14:02:43 <Vorpal> the hospital is way away too, About half the distance between the train station and the university.. But not straight between them.
14:02:49 <ais523> I just realised I don't actually know what you do
14:03:08 <ais523> hmm, not particularly surprising given the topic of this channel...
14:03:22 <Vorpal> ais523, except this is not "proper" CS in the classical sense but rather the more common type of CS.
14:03:34 -!- alise has joined.
14:03:36 <ais523> programming? software engineering?
14:03:43 <alise> <ais523> programming? software engineering?
14:03:47 <ais523> [13:38] <ais523> hi people, I need a quick insanity check:
14:03:48 <Vorpal> ais523, there is a lot more of that than alise would like yes
14:03:48 <ais523> [13:38] <ais523> a) does anyone know of a dynamically scoped call-by-name language? b) how insane am I to have invented/reinvented dynamically scoped lambda calculus?
14:03:50 <ais523> [13:39] <ais523> sample code: (\y.y)(\f.f(y(f)))
14:04:09 <Vorpal> ais523, what is call-by-name now again?
14:04:12 <alise> ais523: (a) not as far as I can think (b) AWESOME
14:04:21 <alise> Today's Astronomy Picture of the Day does not make an especially good wallpaper.
14:04:26 <Vorpal> ais523, that it has dynamically scoped function names?
14:04:40 <ais523> Vorpal: when arguments are passed via evaluating the argument when it's used, in the context of the caller
14:04:56 <alise> Vorpal: basically every argument is (\-> arg)
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14:05:01 <alise> is like, in normal languages,
14:05:06 <alise> f (\() -> x) (\() -> y)
14:05:19 <Vorpal> how does it differ from call-by-value or call-by-reference?
14:05:48 <ais523> e.g. int f(x,y) {x = x+1; return y;} int main() {int x = 4; return f(x, x+2);}
14:05:52 <alise> "Dude makes 1:1 scale of the Star Trek Enterprise in Minecraft" ;; IT'S THE USS ENTERPRISE NCC-1701-D STUPID
14:05:56 <ais523> would return 7 if C was call-by-name
14:06:21 <ais523> because the x = x + 1 increments x in the caller (much like call-by-reference), and then returning y uses the new value of x in the caller
14:06:31 <ais523> the second property is unique to call-by-name
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14:06:48 <Vorpal> ais523, ah so return y returns "x+2", and lets the caller evaluate it then?
14:07:00 <Vorpal> rather than evaluating it at call time
14:07:08 <ais523> not exactly; it gets the caller to evaluate x+2, then returns the value the caller gives it
14:07:26 <ais523> although what you mentioned would be a plausible "tail-call-by-name" optimisation, I suppose
14:07:35 <Vorpal> ais523, is this found anywhere outside esolangs?
14:07:42 <ais523> Vorpal: ALGOL 60, famously
14:07:44 <Vorpal> it sounds so absurdly awkward
14:07:48 <ais523> but it wasn't dynamically scoped
14:07:56 <Vorpal> ah that would help I guess
14:08:08 <alise> see Man or Boy test
14:08:27 <Vorpal> ais523, hm I can't think of any language like that indeed.
14:08:38 <ais523> also, in languages like Haskell, technically you could use call-by-name and you wouldn't notice because there are no side effects suitable for distinguishing by-name from by-value
14:09:04 <Vorpal> ais523, and it seems a lot harder to implement than simple straight-forward call by value.
14:09:08 <ais523> the hardware compiler I'm working on at work is call-by-name, which is why I'm thinking about it
14:09:10 <alise> Christ the Enterprise is huge.
14:09:14 <ais523> it's harder in some ways, but easier in other ways
14:09:33 <ais523> call-by-value has issues with higher-order functions, as you actually need to save their values somewhere
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14:10:12 <Vorpal> ais523, so why anyone would do it in something like ALGOL 60 I can't understand. Weren't computer resources limited back then? So it seems like a bad decision to add the extra complexity of doing this.
14:10:18 <ais523> ugh, something seems to be randomly resetting my connection, both IRC and the web
14:10:20 <alise> Holy shit, the Enterprise is almost a fucking kilometre long.
14:10:23 <ais523> I think it's the wireless router gone mad again
14:10:28 <alise> That is just unholy.
14:10:38 <ais523> Vorpal: computer scientists, the pure CS sort not the programming sort, like call-by-name
14:10:53 <ais523> because you don't have to distinguish values from expressions
14:10:55 <alise> Vorpal: Enterprise-D, but they're all much the same design
14:11:05 <alise> Vorpal: algol 60 was hardly designed for the computers of the time, dude
14:11:06 <ais523> also, in call-by-name, if and while can be defined as functions
14:11:14 <alise> i was thinking of algol 68
14:11:15 <Vorpal> alise, enterprise-d, which series was that
14:11:19 <alise> which is probably the first language-wank ever
14:11:41 <Vorpal> alise, well 642.5 m is closer to half a km than a km
14:11:47 <Vorpal> alise, still large, but not that extreme
14:11:49 <alise> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn2-d5a3r94 full-size model of Enterprise in Minecraft; http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/djs2s/dude_makes_11_scale_of_the_star_trek_enterprise/c10qj2p elaboration
14:11:50 <ais523> e.g. command while(boolean cond, command c) {if(cond){c; while(cond,c);}}
14:11:59 <alise> his version is 785 m on that dimension though; it's 22% bigger to fit minecraft characters better
14:12:03 <ais523> ("command" is typically a data type in such languages)
14:12:17 <alise> (Video narration is hilarious.)
14:12:18 <Vorpal> alise, heck, some bulk cargo trains reach over 1 km in length, Of course they are not spaceships, but still...
14:12:25 <alise> ais523: i don't think it's *popular* among CS guys
14:12:29 <alise> just hilariously admired
14:12:49 <ais523> at least in the field I'm working with, "Idealized Algol" and its variations are the typical stock language to work from
14:12:53 <alise> Vorpal: it's like a virtual world, except based entirely on 1 m^3 squares of different types, and you can dig and stuff
14:12:56 <ais523> it's Algol 60, adapted to remove all the features that make it practical
14:12:57 <alise> it's an open-ended sandbox game
14:13:15 <alise> and it's awesome up until the point S g e o hears about it and starts obsessing, so talk very quietly
14:13:40 <alise> Vorpal: oh yeah and the gigantic world map is randomly generated
14:13:46 <alise> and there are caves and mines and stuff
14:14:00 <ais523> alise: it sounds rather like Dwarf Fortress with shallower gameplay and a better interface
14:14:07 <alise> ais523: well, it's massive-multiplayer
14:14:09 <alise> for some value of massive
14:14:13 <Vorpal> <ais523> it's Algol 60, adapted to remove all the features that make it practical <-- XD
14:14:14 <alise> and also some value of how multiplayer you want
14:14:18 <alise> since you can have, like, private worlds
14:14:32 <alise> it costs (one-off though), the ooold version is free though
14:14:36 <ais523> Vorpal: I mean, syntactic sugar's nice in a real language, but you don't want it in your mathematical abstractions
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14:15:13 <alise> the only acceptable language is SK combinators with three bits of ram
14:15:16 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm still not sure I grok call-by-name. Maybe it isn't so awkward without dynamic scoping?
14:16:03 <alise> Vorpal: anyway, consider that the Enterprise is about *twice* the length of a *huge* cruise ship
14:16:50 <Vorpal> alise, does it fit with the expected interior size though?
14:16:51 <alise> well all cruise ships are huge
14:16:57 <alise> you know what i mean
14:17:04 <alise> Vorpal: pretty much:
14:17:05 <alise> The original Enterprise is 642.5 Meters x 467.0 Meters x 137.5 Meters. This is about 3m per deck. Sadly, with the 1m deck you have to walk on, that only leaves 2m left over for hallway space. As your character is only 1.7m tall, you will be bumping your head around a lot. I decided to make the ship 22% bigger, so I could have 4 m per deck. That puts the final size @ 785m x 570m x 168m. I made my "pit" 800x600x180 to fit all 42 decks and almost made a critica
14:17:05 <alise> l error. Even though there are 42 decks on the enterprise, the 2nd deck is split into two half-decks, making actually 43. I made the pit bigger than she ship so I could have a little wiggle room and just missed making it too shallow. In my testing, the halls can get a little cramped. The current decks are just a guideline and framework. They don't call it "Creative Mode" for nothing.
14:17:17 <alise> Vorpal: the only reason he had to enlarge it
14:17:20 <alise> is because the floor is 1 m^3
14:17:25 <alise> since everything in minecraft is 1 m^3
14:18:26 <Vorpal> alise, you can't make anything but square 1 m^3 objects or?
14:19:01 <alise> it has monsters and rollercoasters and stuff. but the actual blocks
14:19:12 <alise> although due to the rollercoasters, pretty sure there's ramped blocks
14:19:20 <alise> i haven't played it personally, have been meaning to
14:20:40 <Vorpal> alise, the idea seems good though, but the 1 m³ restriction must he rather hampering. It will look like it was made out of square lego blocks
14:20:50 <Vorpal> err, cubic ones I mean
14:21:12 <alise> well, it's insanely popular
14:21:17 <alise> so i guess not that hampering :)
14:21:21 <alise> Vorpal: have you watched the video?
14:21:28 <Vorpal> alise, yes, just finished
14:21:34 <alise> at the right zoom level, anything can look right :-P
14:21:39 <fizzie> There are no ramped blocks, but the minecart tracks automagically ramp themselves a bit.
14:21:47 <alise> Vorpal: also, you're comparing it to lego as if that's a bad thing
14:21:53 <Vorpal> alise, and when he got closer to the stuff near the base it didn't look very good
14:22:01 <alise> well, he hasn't filled it in yet
14:22:03 <alise> Next step: Spaceflight
14:22:10 <fizzie> There are half-height "step" blocks for staircasing, but those occupy only the lower half, not the upper.
14:22:27 <Vorpal> alise, the issue is that enterprise is all smooth curves. Very few things at right angles in it
14:22:28 <fizzie> And other, smaller things, like pressure plates; those are rather thin, but I think you can still stand on them.
14:22:35 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Minecraft.png mah treez r square
14:22:55 <alise> i like how the sun is a square
14:23:15 <fizzie> Also the moon, and I think it had square craters too.
14:23:38 <fizzie> I guess it's not detailed enough for that. But at least it's square.
14:23:52 <alise> if you run fast enough does it get dark
14:23:54 <alise> or is the world flat :P
14:24:21 <Vorpal> alise, you need textures for something like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/Enterprise_Forward.jpg
14:24:29 <Vorpal> still cool/insane/awesome idea
14:24:37 <alise> Vorpal: meh, coloured blocks
14:24:42 <alise> all those coloured elements are >1m^3
14:25:03 <fizzie> I think the world is flat. (Possibly one side of a cube, though?)
14:25:08 <alise> should have done the defiant
14:25:10 <alise> that's just a brick ;)
14:25:20 <Vorpal> alise, still, he had to fill out lots of panels it seemed like
14:25:45 <Vorpal> or whatever you call them
14:25:59 <Vorpal> it looked like a blocky wireframe
14:26:38 <alise> who cares it's awesome :P
14:26:53 <Vorpal> alise, missing comma there
14:27:02 <alise> who, care it's awesome :P
14:27:12 <Vorpal> I meant after cares :P
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14:28:05 <fizzie> The framework was done by converting directly into a Minecraft map, wasn't it? (But the plan was to have a bunch of people doing all the interior construction in-game, if I understood right.)
14:28:36 <alise> Vorpal: meh, i didn't pronounce any comma
14:28:38 <fizzie> Watched it with no audio earlier today.
14:29:28 <Vorpal> ais523, does TAEB farm?
14:32:07 <fizzie> Water in minecraft is really funny; if you scoop up a bucketful, then place it in any square, that square will turn into a "fountain", from which an infinite amount of water will flow, except that it only spreads sideways at an inclination of around 1/4 blocks. And if you later pick up the "fountain" block back to a bucket, all the water it has generated will also dry out.
14:32:16 <alise> (Note: I don't know for certain, I'm just making a 90% prediction here.)
14:32:36 <alise> fizzie: Can you pick up water without a bucket?
14:32:41 <fizzie> For example, this is what happened when I was trying to hit a switch next to my door but accidentally unbucketed a bucket of water there: http://zem.fi/~fis/flood.png
14:32:43 <alise> I want self-contained blocks of water.
14:32:46 <fizzie> No, you need a bucket.
14:33:04 <fizzie> I think the earlier sort of water (pre-Alpha) was even less "realistic".
14:34:16 <fizzie> But you can "pour" a bucket of water at a great height (as long as there's something next to it -- and you can remove that something later on if you want) and it'll make a permanent waterfall at that point.
14:34:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it pure virtual world or more than that?
14:34:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: On the other hand, it was easy to clean up: I just re-bucketed that one fountain block and everything went to how it was before.
14:34:50 <fizzie> (Also, lava behaves just like water except it moves slower.)
14:35:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, very crude textures
14:35:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm not sure what you mean by "more". I mean, there's some game-like elements in it.
14:35:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, it's a stylistic choice.
14:35:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, I saw a health meter on some screenshot of it
14:35:45 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWPk5zlKAEM and especially at 4:45 onwards (after looking at the big one)
14:35:56 <alise> the main bit reminds me of Magrathea's factory
14:36:00 <fizzie> Yes, there's a "survival" game thing, monsters at night, that sort of stuff.
14:36:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, any cars or such?
14:36:30 <fizzie> Though if playing locally you can just set difficulty to "peaceful", and I'm sure there's servers around that do that too.
14:36:37 <fizzie> There's minecarts, with wonderfully screwy physics.
14:36:39 <alise> fizzie: So does lava... hurt you? :P
14:37:12 <fizzie> alise: Well, you get set on fire. And then die, after a while. Unless you run pretty fast to some water.
14:37:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can build perpetual motion machines out of the minecarts.
14:37:29 <alise> Vorpal: see that vide
14:37:34 <alise> unless that's not water
14:37:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can swim, but there's an oxygen-meter if you go below the surface.
14:37:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, and can you die from falling from great heights?
14:38:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. Or at least you take damage, I'm not sure if there's a cap to that.
14:38:32 <fizzie> Oh, and you can build logic circuits out of redstone: http://minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_circuits
14:38:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, can you make lifts or other interesting moving stuff?
14:39:35 <fizzie> Well, it's pretty limited, but you can make those minecarts go uphill by screwing with the physics, and then use those logic circuits (and pressure plates) to make T-connections that flip direction.
14:40:40 <alise> fizzie: can you get them to go straight up? :D
14:40:53 <fizzie> Oh, and there's powered minecarts, but those burn fuel.
14:41:03 <Vorpal> and how do you get fuel?
14:41:18 <Vorpal> or raw material for that matter
14:41:19 <fizzie> You can mine for coal, or cut down trees.
14:41:23 <fizzie> Punch down trees, more like.
14:41:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about rock?
14:42:06 <fizzie> Basically you first punch down some trees, turn those into planks, those into sticks, then make a wooden pickaxe; then use that to get some cobblestones and make tools out of stone; and then proceed from there.
14:42:59 <fizzie> You need a diamond pickaxe to mine obsidian (the hardest material, discounting adminium), and there's other rules like that.
14:43:30 <fizzie> You need a more-than-stone pickaxe to mine gold/diamonds. But you can mine iron ore with a stone pickaxe, that's how you get steel stuff.
14:44:12 <fizzie> With ores (gold, iron) you need to use a foundry to smelt them into things you can build with, though. And the foundry needs fuel; one lump of coal can do 8 smelting operations.
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14:44:24 <fizzie> (One bucket of lava will do 1000, but it'll also burn out the bucket.)
14:44:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, and your build the foundry out of blocks too?
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14:44:45 <alise> <alise> fizzie: can you get them to go straight up? :D
14:44:48 <fizzie> Yes, the foundry is made out of 8 blocks of stone in a square.
14:44:57 <alise> punch down trees :D
14:45:00 <fizzie> alise: Not that I know of, but you could make a track that spirals upwards.
14:45:26 <alise> i want that instead of a lift in every building
14:45:47 <fizzie> alise: If you're building something for people to use, waterfall elevators are popular. (You can swim up a waterfall.)
14:46:02 <Vorpal> Ilari, can you suspend things in the air? That enterprise thing looked like it was suspended on nothing
14:46:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, most things float in the air. Usually you need something to "build against" in order to actually put a block there, but it will not fall if you later dismantle what it was hanging from.
14:47:00 <fizzie> Sand and gravel do fall to lowest possible z-coordinate, though.
14:47:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, that switch thingy, what can it do?
14:47:10 <fizzie> (You can suffocate yourself in gravel if you mine carelessly.)
14:47:50 <fizzie> A switch "activates" things; things that you can activate include doors, redstone wires, and... well, I don't know. Something else too, probably. Minecart track T-junctions switch direction when activated, I think.
14:49:15 <Vorpal> for something on rails to turn 90° sharply
14:49:54 <fizzie> Well, the middle square of the T-junction will have a 90-degree "smooth" turn to either way, and that's the bit that flips when you activate it.
14:50:06 <fizzie> I do think it should be TC, except that it has a pretty bad limitation that all active stuff (like redstone circuits) are only updated in the local neighbourhood of a player, and I think it was a pretty small neighbourhood too. (And in any case there's a finite world anyway.)
14:50:42 <fizzie> "Circuits that are more than ~300 blocks away from your current position will cease to operate due to being on unloaded chunks."
14:51:43 <fizzie> Also, one "redstone torch" will only send a signal for 15 squares of wire, but you can chain torches; there'll be a propagation delay that way, though.
14:51:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, do trees regrow?
14:51:59 <fizzie> Yes, they're a renewable resource.
14:52:12 <fizzie> You can also plant trees, some of the greenery will turn into saplings.
14:52:27 <fizzie> They need sunlight and that sort of stuff to grow though.
14:52:41 <fizzie> Also there's some sort of farming mechanism, I think.
14:53:37 <fizzie> (I'm no expert on this, I've just dabbled with the game for something like three days when they had that free-for-all weekend, and watched other people's stuff.)
14:54:04 <alise> <fizzie> alise: If you're building something for people to use, waterfall elevators are popular. (You can swim up a waterfall.)
14:54:09 <alise> Can you shoot someone up a waterfall? :P
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14:54:26 <fizzie> I'm not sure how much you can affect other people, except to bump them a bit.
14:54:29 <alise> <Vorpal> Ilari, [minecraft question] ;; how the hell did you make this typo?
14:55:08 <Vorpal> alise, I'm on qwerty so it makes no sense
14:55:35 <fizzie> Maybe it's a case of "all Finns look alike".
14:55:44 <Vorpal> alise, oh wait, it must have been fi<tab> turned into i<tab>f, noticed f and backspaced
14:55:59 <Vorpal> for some value of sense
14:57:40 <fizzie> There's that hilarious "this is how you make a nice fireplace for your elaborate, built-out-of-wood house" video, where the narrator ends up accidentally completely burning down his house; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnjSWPxJxNs -- it's a bit sad to watch, he's all "uh.. uh-oh.."
14:58:00 <fizzie> Half a million views already.
14:59:05 <Vorpal> why did he upload it heh
14:59:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, how long have you been playing this came?
14:59:27 <Vorpal> argh today is the day of typos
14:59:31 <fizzie> <fizzie> (I'm no expert on this, I've just dabbled with the game for something like three days when they had that free-for-all weekend, and watched other people's stuff.)
15:00:42 <fizzie> Anyway, what I was actually looking for was this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v5cAFYouWY which is about the crazy minecart physics.
15:00:58 <fizzie> (The latter half is the more interesting.)
15:02:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, do people ride carts or?
15:02:31 <fizzie> People, though there's also a minecart/box hybrid you can put stuff to.
15:04:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, "boosters"? how does that work
15:04:53 <fizzie> If you have two carts next to each other, it keeps increasing the momentum of both.
15:05:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, and it wouldn't increase it for one?
15:05:52 <fizzie> Well, no, why would it? Normally it increases speed/momentum when you're going downhill, slowly decreases if moving on flat ground, and decreases faster if going uphill.
15:05:56 <fizzie> Which is sort-of realistic.
15:06:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes and the booster thing is err then indeed
15:06:19 <fizzie> But if you have two carts next to each other (on different tracks) it keeps speeding both up.
15:06:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, bug or intentional?
15:06:38 <Vorpal> or bug that they can't fix any longer due to people depending on it?
15:06:51 <fizzie> It sounds like a bug; it's possible it'll get fixed. The game's still officially in alpha.
15:07:37 <fizzie> They did add those powered minecarts to it, which can sort-of replace that sort of trickery, but of course those need fuel.
15:08:04 <fizzie> I also heard something about making torches burn out; currently torches stay lit indefinitely.
15:10:39 <alise> <fizzie> If you have two carts next to each other, it keeps increasing the momentum of both.
15:10:48 <fizzie> No, there's a cap for speed.
15:11:07 <fizzie> There isn't a cap for momentum, though, except that after it overflows the cart stops flat.
15:12:47 <alise> fizzie: wow, when he tries to put the fire out the block of fire becomes a perfectly square block of water :D
15:12:52 <fizzie> Oh, and you can make boats out of wood, and boats float, so if you "drive" a boat into a waterfall, it'll rise up faster than what you could swim. Plus you can sort-of stay outside the water while still going upward, so that you don't drown.
15:13:01 <alise> HOW IS HE KILLING FIRE WITH A HAMMER
15:13:32 <alise> haha man gravity-defying fire this is my favourite type of fire
15:13:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, they got the direction in the waterfall wrong?
15:14:16 <fizzie> No, it's just that it's considered water, and floating things go up in water.
15:14:52 <Vorpal> [download] 66.2% of 141.13M at 121.89k/s ETA 06:41
15:15:41 <Sgeo> Fuck the word "fuck"
15:15:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, did they intentionally make it this weird?
15:16:05 <alise> Vorpal: the guy's swedish iirc, so yes.
15:16:12 <alise> (a friend knows him)
15:16:12 * Sgeo was trying to be humorous
15:17:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: I wouldn't want to start guessing about intentions; but the way water works has been changed, so I guess they're just playing around and seeing what works.
15:18:38 <ais523> what's the standard eager definition of the Y combinator?
15:19:08 <Sgeo> Also, I need to leave soon
15:19:14 <Sgeo> Hopefully my clothing will be dry soon
15:20:30 <fizzie> Sgeo: If by DF you mean Dwarf Fortress, no, not that; Minecraft, though DF is I think officially mentioned as an inspiration.
15:20:44 <Gregor> ais523: The Y combinator works whether it's eager or not.
15:21:02 <ais523> Gregor: agreed, but it needs to be defined differently in the two cases
15:21:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it need to play on server or does it work locally?
15:22:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can play locally if you like; that's the only thing I've tried. There's a lot of servers around, though. And I understand some servers have all kinds of different additions.
15:23:03 <alise> it's not the Y combinator then :)
15:23:08 <alise> it's a fixed-point combinator
15:23:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you have a copy still or?
15:23:25 <alise> the common call-by-value one is called Z
15:23:28 <alise> Z = λf. (λx. f (λy. x x y)) (λx. f (λy. x x y))
15:23:59 <Vorpal> alise, wtf image: http://minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Ladder-water-lock.PNG
15:24:07 <ais523> hmm, I showed my supervisor my crazy dynamically-scoped Y and he told me to wrap it up in a constant so nobody would have to see the definition
15:24:08 <Vorpal> alise, the latters prevent water from going down
15:24:35 <alise> it'd turn them insane
15:24:35 <Vorpal> alise, http://minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Ladder-water-tunnel.PNG
15:24:53 <Vorpal> alise, yeah but that was a different image
15:25:02 <Vorpal> this one is about as absurd
15:25:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes; "You will be able to play the game without an internet connection if you've run the launcher at least once while connected to the internet." -- so I could still continue to play locally after getting it "for free" during that weekend, though I'm not exactly sure what the license terms say.
15:25:19 <alise> Vorpal: wow @ that
15:25:36 <fizzie> Yeah, water won't go through an (open) door either.
15:26:08 <alise> can you do an ACTUAL SPACESHIP :|
15:26:38 <fizzie> I don't think you can. :(
15:26:43 <ais523> aha, I've just figured out what's /actually going on/ in this hardware Y
15:26:53 <ais523> the definition is the standard Y(f) = f(Y(f))
15:27:09 <alise> fizzie: Then we can STAR TREKKING ACROSS THE MINEYVERSE
15:27:13 <ais523> but the two Y(f) are the same circuit with a multiplexer, to avoid an infinite regress
15:27:21 <alise> ais523: Y(f) = f(Y(f)) is not Y
15:27:23 <Vorpal> <ais523> aha, I've just figured out what's /actually going on/ in this hardware Y <--- hardware Y?
15:27:25 <alise> it's a fixed-point combinator
15:27:33 <ais523> alise: really? which one /is/ Y then?
15:27:41 <alise> Y = λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x))
15:27:46 <ais523> oh, that's true of fixed-point combinators in general
15:27:52 <Vorpal> ais523, are you saying you are doing lambda calculus in *hardware*?
15:27:53 <ais523> this is typed lambda calculus, though
15:28:29 <ais523> we think it's more efficient that traditional imperativey methods
15:28:53 <alise> "We also think that giving crack to monkeys is the quickest route to both a research paper and a good time."
15:29:14 <ais523> alise: anyway, whatever you call the combinator, y(f) = f(y(f)) is the actual definition being used in hardware
15:29:53 <alise> If you call it Y, I will turn into a nuclear bomb and then detonate myself. :|
15:29:57 <alise> That is how IMPORTANT this matter is!
15:30:11 <fizzie> Do let me know when I can buy an Intel Lambda iλ processor, though.
15:30:13 <alise> ais523: your hardware is crazy.
15:30:28 <ais523> fizzie: it's not general hardware
15:30:42 <ais523> it's a case of implementing one /specific/ lambda-calculus circuit (which could be any one you like) in hardware
15:30:47 <ais523> as in, your hardware only does one program
15:30:49 <alise> ais523: But you could implement x86 in a lambda expression!
15:30:58 <ais523> alise: yes, but it'd probably be easier to do it by hand
15:30:58 <alise> "Microcode? More like LAMBDACODE"
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15:33:58 <alise> http://minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Notch "Physics: Yes"
15:35:55 <fizzie> Also transparency; but maybe it refers to the fact that it's not completely cube-shaped.
15:38:39 <alise> "MINECRAFT: A FIRST PERSON AUTISM SIMULATOR" ;; best slogan ever
15:38:50 <ais523> ontopic found via proggit: http://j.mearie.org/post/1181041789/brainfuck-interpreter-in-2-lines-of-c
15:38:55 <ais523> someone trying to golf a BF interp
15:39:00 <ais523> can we beat 160 bytes?
15:39:04 <alise> http://minecraftwiki.net/images/6/68/1283223082465.jpg I see nothing that looks even vaguely like a person in the image; someone point to it?
15:39:06 <alise> ais523: mearie is lifthrasiir
15:39:13 <alise> he linked the post here recently
15:39:18 <alise> also, attempts ensued, iirc
15:39:22 <alise> or perhaps before he said it, I forget
15:39:35 <ais523> that use of syscall is really ingenious, incidentally
15:40:14 <alise> i think it'll be very hard to beat
15:40:48 <ais523> loop parsing is always fun in BF
15:41:01 <fizzie> alise: In your picture there's that thing with glowing eyes, near the horizon, at the left end of the slope.
15:41:09 <ais523> the BF interp I submitted to the last IOCCC did it two characters at a time, via a lookup table
15:41:31 <ais523> relying on the fact that it doesn't matter whether you end up before or after the [ or ] you're trying to match
15:41:32 <alise> fizzie: I see a very fuzzy thing but no glowing eyes.
15:41:46 <ais523> but that's obviously not the shortest way, it's just one of the more confusing ones to understand
15:41:55 <fizzie> alise: Maybe he's hiding from you, then.
15:42:06 <alise> ais523: while(*p)myself(s); is clearly the easiest
15:42:09 <alise> and ] just doing return;
15:42:20 <alise> ooh, or even just break :-D
15:42:30 <alise> myself is an interpreter
15:42:44 <alise> and does while(*p)myself(prog); on [
15:42:47 <ais523> ok, so recurse on [, return on ]
15:42:59 <alise> and since you pass the code pointer, it restores automatically
15:43:15 <ais523> how do you execute a loop 0 times, in that case?
15:44:00 <ais523> hmm, this would be easy with INTERCAL control constructs
15:44:03 <alise> erm, !*p, so myself(p) isn't executed
15:44:19 <ais523> alise: yep, then you end up after the [ not after the ]
15:44:31 <ais523> because nothing moved forwards to the ]
15:46:04 <alise> then i checks p... hmm, no, this is too complicated
15:46:15 <alise> ais523: clearly bf should have all while loops be do-while :P
15:46:46 <ais523> I seem to remember making an attempt to prove it TC a while ago
15:50:14 <alise> no dofuck on the wikis
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15:54:37 * alise connects the issues
15:57:55 <ais523> wow, at http://codegolf.com/brainfuck the top two entries are within one byte of each other and in different languages
15:57:59 <ais523> I wouldn't expect it to be so close
15:59:04 <alise> it's like anagolf for boring people!
15:59:43 <alise> hey, <> works in shells
15:59:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:59:46 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ echo boo >foo; (echo hi; cat) <>foo
15:59:56 <ais523> anagolf : codegolf :: random programming for #esoteric : government contracts
16:00:05 <alise> and government contracts are boring as hell
16:02:37 <alise> famous people on our wiki:
16:02:43 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Tom_Duff
16:02:44 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Dankogai
16:03:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't actually think high-density glider streams are the best way to destroy stuff.
16:03:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: relink me to that pastebin?
16:03:58 <alise> OR I COULD FIND IT MYSELF I *GUESS*
16:04:02 <Phantom_Hoover> They tend to make a big cloud of opaque debris at the end without doing much extra damage.
16:04:33 * alise pacefalm @ golly not shipping its icon in the bianry package
16:04:54 <Phantom_Hoover> "High density" includes normal Gosper guns too, though.
16:05:30 <alise> also it's svn isn't it?
16:05:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: remember the lightspeed telegraph? when i poked a hole in it and it burned the fuel really quickly and then replaced the entire telegraph with still life very rapidly?
16:05:54 <alise> that was some fire
16:06:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's basically standard behaviour for unstable things.
16:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> They burn spectacularly with the slightest alteration.
16:07:05 <Phantom_Hoover> It's also where I made the multibarrel Gosper, while building a normal one to aim at the LST.
16:08:05 <alise> *DIE SCIENCE, DIE!
16:08:24 <ais523> there should be some interesting way to do competitive Life
16:08:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, there's always the majority neighbourhood rules.
16:09:06 * Phantom_Hoover decides to knock together a rule table for that while he waits.
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16:09:23 <ais523> but I mean, with some sort of incentive for building a large complex structure
16:09:31 <Gregor> Just do Life as normal, and assign cells to their majority neighbor. The problem is that may make "attacks" sort of useless.
16:09:34 <alise> let's see if it works with 64-bit python now
16:09:49 <ais523> Gregor: how do you actually control the thing, though?
16:09:55 <ais523> each person gets to set up an area to start with then just leaves it?
16:10:09 <ais523> I suppose if people had a large enough area, and they were far enough apart, it could work a bit like corewars
16:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I asked the guys on the mailing list and they said it did.
16:10:49 <alise> Let's see if it builds with -j3 and *without* adding build options. :-)
16:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a matter of someone not realising that Py_InitModule4 was platform-specific.
16:11:15 <Gregor> OH YEAH I JUST REMEMBERED
16:11:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Stupid projects making a big deal of releases.
16:11:23 <alise> I'd have 2.1.1 out in a day :P
16:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, am I a Bad Person for not using clang as my default compiler?
16:11:35 <Gregor> Awesome competitive Wikipedia Clickit game:
16:11:38 <alise> Nobody does that apart from everyone on OS X, and that was Apple's decision.
16:11:48 <alise> I must now try this
16:11:51 <cpressey> ais523: I can't see how you could strategize, exactly.
16:12:18 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/golly/src$ make -f makefile-gtk -j3 CXXC=clang
16:12:20 <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, high-density ash is basically impenetrable.
16:12:20 <cpressey> You just have a big breeder pattern and hope that it lines up fortuitously against your neighbour's big breeder patterns?
16:12:23 <alise> Oops I don't have clang
16:12:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What's ash again?
16:12:41 <Gregor> An impartial judge chooses a start page and two goal pages, each player is given one of the goal pages (as their goal). One at a time, each player takes a step from the current page, trying to get towards their own goal page. First whose goal is hit wins.
16:12:41 <alise> The result of destroying things?
16:12:42 <ais523> alise: "CXXC"? I thought "CXX" was the normal env variable
16:12:49 <alise> ais523: well, these guys are ~different~
16:12:54 <ais523> alise: standard Minix shell, isn't it?
16:12:54 <alise> then checked the makefile-gtk
16:13:04 <alise> tell me that was purposeful
16:13:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: right
16:13:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, should be passable with a bunch of redundant spaceships
16:13:17 <ais523> Gregor: people would keep jumping back to dates, wouldn't they?
16:13:23 <ais523> to prevent the opponent getting an advantage?
16:13:31 <alise> imagine a big ring of spaceships that also continually send gliders to the centre control unit
16:13:40 <alise> whenever the control unit doesn't receive a glider in the right time according to a clock
16:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Firing a Gosper gun at high-density ash is suicide, basically.
16:13:48 <alise> it creates a new one in the right direction
16:14:03 <alise> so as long as all of them aren't destroyed at once -- which probably won't happen -- it'll keep going
16:14:15 <alise> (they themselves act as a shield to the control-unit-ship)
16:14:31 <cpressey> Google is useless for this, but... I remember seeing a pattern which just grows. In all directions. At like 1/2C.
16:14:37 <Phantom_Hoover> What happens if the mothership crashes into some debris in its path.
16:15:13 <Gregor> ais523: Why back to "dates"?
16:15:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Isn't it c/4?
16:15:24 <Gregor> ais523: And they still have to try to get to their own goal.
16:15:29 <alise> pretty sure there's no c/2 all-directions spacefiller :P
16:15:31 <ais523> Gregor: because they're on basically every page
16:15:35 <alise> since that's sort of impossible
16:15:50 <Gregor> ais523: Fine, but why do you think dates don't give the opponent an advantage?
16:15:58 <Gregor> ais523: You don't know what the opponent's goal is.
16:16:09 <ais523> generally speaking, they're not within one hop of a random page
16:16:10 <alise> clang -DVERSION=2.2b4 -DGOLLYDIR="" -O4 -Wall -Wno-non-virtual-dtor -fno-strict-aliasing -o bgolly ObjGTK/bigint.o ObjGTK/lifealgo.o ObjGTK/hlifealgo.o ObjGTK/hlifedraw.o ObjGTK/qlifealgo.o ObjGTK/qlifedraw.o ObjGTK/jvnalgo.o ObjGTK/ruletreealgo.o ObjGTK/ruletable_algo.o ObjGTK/ghashbase.o ObjGTK/ghashdraw.o ObjGTK/readpattern.o ObjGTK/writepattern.o ObjGTK/liferules.o ObjGTK/util.o ObjGTK/liferender.o ObjGTK/viewport.o ObjGTK/lifepoll.o ObjGTK/generationsal
16:16:10 <alise> go.o ObjGTK/bgolly.o -lz
16:16:10 <alise> ObjGTK/bigint.o: file not recognized: File format not recognized
16:16:16 <ais523> ah, but not knowing what the enemy goal is makes it interesting
16:16:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh, right
16:16:28 <Gregor> ais523: They're not going to be within one hop of your page either :P
16:16:35 <ais523> at least, if you aren't near /your/ goal, you're probably going to click a date just to make the opponent further from theirs
16:16:38 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I still think it's basically impossible to strategize without knowing how your patterns are aligned wrt your neighbours. Otherwise I'd just spacefiller and hope.
16:16:39 <ais523> as defence is more important than attack
16:16:45 <alise> they have an autoconf-based system now?
16:17:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: autoreconf, dude
16:17:10 <alise> you don't store configure in repos
16:17:12 <cpressey> OK, C/4, whatever. Point being, fast.
16:17:24 <alise> cpressey: and it dies if anything hits it
16:17:29 <ais523> crazy blue-skies project of mine I never started: a build system where you just give it the sources and it figures out the rest
16:17:30 <alise> so it's not a very good weapon
16:17:43 <ais523> alise: does it work well?
16:17:49 <alise> you have to specify the single command to compile one file, and a list of files, and it handles dependencies automatically
16:17:51 <alise> ais523: yes, quite popular
16:18:11 <alise> fabric or something
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16:18:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Spacefillers could be good for making high-density ash quickly.
16:18:59 <alise> ais523: http://code.google.com/p/fabricate/
16:19:17 <Phantom_Hoover> And the glider pulse from the fire would probably be damaging.
16:19:26 <cpressey> My money is still on the spacefiller.
16:19:33 <alise> add a filename -> compiler invocation table and automatic build/compile/link/clean actions and you're done
16:19:37 <alise> oh, plus a globber
16:20:29 <ais523> alise: does it, say, install libraries that the code depends on?
16:20:36 <ais523> figuring them out by looking at linker errors?
16:21:57 <ais523> alise: see, that's the level of intelligence I was thinking about
16:21:59 <alise> ais523: it does use strace, though
16:22:01 <alise> which is magic enough
16:22:14 <ais523> really, I wanted something where you could take a tarball and automatically make, say, a .deb file
16:22:17 <alise> that build system sounds nice though, maybe i'll write it :P
16:22:26 <alise> ais523: without a makefile in it?
16:22:26 <ais523> to allow easy tarball installations for people who don't understand compiling
16:23:17 <ais523> alise: even without a makefile; I'm not sure if it should use a makefile if present
16:23:22 <ais523> probably not, because most makefiles are written badly
16:23:56 <alise> link-time optimisation for golly would be so cool but meh
16:24:02 * ais523 vaguely wonders what the shortest BF hello world is
16:24:36 <alise> config.status: error: cannot find input file: `Makefile.in'
16:24:40 <alise> i should probably just use the makefile
16:25:06 <cpressey> ais523: the very idea of "fuzzy linking"...
16:25:30 <ais523> alise: is there a Makefile.am?
16:25:45 <alise> ais523: yes, but autoreconf fails
16:25:49 <alise> so i'm just using their non-auto makefiles
16:25:57 <ais523> what's the error message?
16:27:48 <alise> http://dcreager.net/2010/02/17/llvm-lto-karmic/ ;; waaay too compilated
16:28:40 <alise> I'll just settle for -O3. Sheesh. :P
16:30:41 <alise> i appear to lack a clang-compatible c stdlib
16:30:59 <alise> h i forgot clang++
16:32:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I suggest we rewrite Golly.
16:32:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because it SUCKS and it's so SLOW and the UI SUCKS
16:33:14 <alise> OUR HASHLIFE WILL BE FIFTEEN TIMES THEIR HASHLIFE
16:33:22 <alise> IT WILL BE THE SIMULATOR TO RUN THE UNIVERSE
16:33:28 <alise> FROM WHICH INTELLIGENCE LIFE WILL EMERGE
16:33:40 <alise> BUT OURS WOULD BE FIFTEEN TIMES
16:33:49 <alise> STACK HASHLIFE ON TOP OF HASHLIFE!
16:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Is Langton's Ant symmetric about black/white inversion?
16:34:56 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/golly/src$ make -f makefile-gtk -j3 CXXC=clang++ CXXFLAGS='-DVERSION=2.2b4 -DGOLLYDIR="" -O3 -Wall -Wno-non-virtual-dtor -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-stack-protector'
16:35:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You should totally design a conservative Life-like CA.
16:35:17 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I'm still waiting for HashAnt.
16:35:21 <alise> Interesting thing would be that nothing would evaporate.
16:35:40 <alise> Everything would either oscillate or traverse.
16:35:45 <alise> Oscillate with possible period one, that is,
16:36:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Man, Hashlife has to be the coolest method of simulating a turing machine ever.
16:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> That's one of Golly's advantages over previous simulators.
16:36:07 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but is it implemented somewhere?
16:36:18 <alise> It actually has multiple parts on different generations at one time, doesn't it?
16:36:21 <alise> Hashlife, that is.
16:36:48 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, do you mean...
16:37:02 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> It *uses* HashLife for everything other than Life. ;; lawl
16:37:19 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Do you mean it translates X into Life then runs Hashlife on it?
16:37:36 <alise> To another, multi-coloured Life-like CA.
16:37:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Man, imagine running the sentient dudes on Hashlife.
16:37:42 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, no, it extends Hashlife to arbitrary CAs and runs that on it.
16:37:52 <alise> "I think that perhaps it is verbut what about the walruses?"
16:37:56 <cpressey> That feels like it hardly counts ;/
16:38:07 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, no, it extends Hashlife to arbitrary CAs and runs that on it.
16:38:15 <alise> but the ant simulator does some jiggery-pokery, i think
16:38:43 <alise> is quicklife faster than hashlife?
16:38:46 <alise> that is not my experience
16:40:35 <cpressey> I wonder. Modify Hashlife to find self-similar areas of Wang tiling...
16:41:32 <alise> that is my contribution to this discussion
16:42:58 * alise transplants Maverick's llvm-2.7 onto his own system
16:43:20 <alise> ALL FILENAMES END WITH -2.7 MWAHAHAHA
16:45:31 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
16:49:58 <alise> https://launchpad.net/~llvm/+archive/ppa
16:50:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: does anything actually use the perl?
16:51:14 <alise> So we can do without it?
16:51:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think there are any Perl scripts without Python equivalents.
16:52:39 <alise> then I can do it with llvm
16:53:47 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/golly/src$ make -f makefile-gtk -j3 CXXC=clang++ CXXFLAGS='-DVERSION=2.2b4 -DGOLLYDIR="" -O3 -Wall -Wno-non-virtual-dtor -fno-strict-aliasing'
16:53:51 <alise> this *should* work now, without perl
16:54:01 <alise> assuming i can just rip out the perl support and everything will work :) haha
16:54:26 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: goin' back under my rock).
16:54:37 <Vorpal> alise, it translates wireworld into something GOL like and then runs hashlife on it!?
16:54:44 <Vorpal> is that what you said above?
16:55:04 <alise> i never said wireworld
16:55:17 <alise> wireworld is perfectly doable as an N-colour life-like automaton
16:55:18 <alise> because it is one.
16:55:33 <Vorpal> alise, which are the ones golly translates then?
16:55:41 <alise> that *is* a translation
16:56:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: tell Vorpal how it does langton's ant
16:56:07 <alise> i'm fuzzy on the details
16:56:19 <Vorpal> well that is easy as an n-colour automaton
16:56:57 <Vorpal> you need 2 + 4*2 colours iirc:
16:57:11 <Vorpal> ant on white and black, one for each direction
16:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it can run any n-colour life-like CA with >=256 states with Hashlife.
16:57:45 <Vorpal> that makes a lot more sense
16:58:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what exactly counts as life like?
16:58:48 <alise> Vorpal: a 2d cellular automaton with a fixed number of colours based on a moore neighbourhood
16:58:54 <alise> perhaps a bit more than that
16:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Moore neighbourhood with radius one and constant transition rules.
16:59:15 <Phantom_Hoover> That's it, if I read the RuleTable documentation correctly.
17:00:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Designing a conservative CA is pretty difficult...
17:00:23 <alise> Since you see the neighbourhood but only control one cell, and flipping it might imbalance it and might not.
17:00:31 <alise> So you need to make sure the cells around it will flip properly, too.
17:00:44 <alise> I just realise dit.
17:01:58 <alise> Hmm, how many bits of information is a B/S rulestring?
17:02:00 <Vorpal> alise, a conservative bully automaton is a lot simpler hm
17:02:15 <alise> Wait, it's just 2^16, right?
17:03:55 <alise> So there's only 65536 two-colour Lifelike CAs.
17:04:05 <alise> Half of them are inverses.
17:04:18 <alise> So to check for conservativity, that's just 32,768 iterations of a fairly simple loop.
17:04:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Epileptically. :P
17:05:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's not THAT simple, but...
17:06:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The state of a cell the next generation depends only on its neighbourhood, not even its current state.
17:06:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Simple:
17:06:41 <alise> Generate 512 cell + neighbourhood blocks.
17:06:48 <alise> You know what I mean?
17:06:58 <alise> A cell plus its Moore niehgbourhood.
17:07:08 <alise> Then, check the resulting midd-- oh wait
17:07:09 <alise> it's per-generation
17:07:16 <alise> meaning you can't assume the outer rim of cells stays the same
17:07:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It may be undecideable.
17:07:33 <alise> undecidable. Whatever.
17:07:36 <alise> My spellcheck likes neither.
17:08:03 <Vorpal> alise, what is undecidable?
17:08:13 <Vorpal> if a CA is conservative or not?
17:08:20 <alise> Vorpal: i think so
17:09:00 <Vorpal> alise, shouldn't it be be possible to detect cases of "definitely not conservative" with some simple tests? Then you have a handful candidates left that *might* be conservative
17:09:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It runs STUPIDLY fast. Although Golly does anyway.
17:09:08 <Vorpal> or am I totally missing something
17:09:13 <alise> Vorpal: well, sure, but...
17:09:22 <alise> there's 2^15 to check out
17:09:26 <alise> we need a lot more than narrowing down
17:09:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: sec
17:09:48 <alise> you need to modify the makefile and shit
17:11:09 <Vorpal> alise, can you prove it is undecidable?
17:12:52 <Vorpal> alise, well, a handful of automated tests should be able to see that there are patterns that are definitely not conservative in many CAs. I have no idea how many candidates it would reduce the set to. Say you test all 2x2 patterns first, and have a border around so you can detect if it flows outwards. Then any conservative candidates left are tested on 3x3 and so on up a few steps. When you have few eno
17:12:52 <Vorpal> ugh left, test on randomly filled space maybe. It might be that you can demonstrate none of them are conservative
17:13:23 <Vorpal> as in, you hit some combo that turns out to be non-conservative for each one.
17:13:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm okay
17:13:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well okay id
17:13:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Want a tar.gz of the latest Golly CVS compiled with clang but without Perl support?
17:13:49 <alise> Whoops, the Perl scripts are still there. How did that happen?
17:13:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, S12345678/B means nothing to me. What do you mean?
17:14:08 <alise> why not what? the binary?
17:14:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: BUT WILL YOU CHERISH IT
17:14:51 <alise> WILL YOU USE IT FOR EVERYTHING
17:15:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, for a reasonably sized block (1024x1024 iirc) it took about half a second I last tried
17:15:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless there are actually any useful Perl scripts, then yes.
17:15:41 <Vorpal> what is wrong with perl support?
17:15:52 <alise> Vorpal: breaks clang compilation
17:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I'm talking about hundreds of thousands on each side.
17:16:00 <Vorpal> alise, and what is wrong with gcc?
17:16:00 <alise> all perl scripts have python equivalents anyway
17:16:04 <alise> or at least all the interesting ones
17:16:06 <alise> Vorpal: it's not as fast.
17:16:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm okay
17:16:12 <alise> and everything is wrong with gcc, dude
17:16:29 <Vorpal> alise, hm? compile speed or speed or resulting binary?
17:19:27 <Gregor> Somebody CTCP VERSION me and tell me what you get.
17:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> -Gregor- VERSION Colloquy 2.3 (4617) - Mac OS X 10.5.8 (Intel) - http://colloquy.info
17:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> -Gregor- VERSION xchat 2.8.8 Linux 2.6.32-4.slh.1-sidux-amd64 [x86_64/1.60GHz/SMP]
17:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> -Gregor- VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2011 64-bit (Windows 8 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM)"
17:20:06 <alise> Gregor: What have you done?
17:20:33 <alise> Microsoft IRC#: so not a real thing
17:20:48 <alise> Windows 8 beta: so not a real thing :P
17:21:07 <Gregor> I love how bip replies, but also forwards.
17:21:18 <Gregor> So there's a trick to figure out whether I'm actually connected or not.
17:21:45 <Gregor> And Colloquy is the worst IRC client ever.
17:23:06 <alise> This is not a normal file permission.
17:23:11 <alise> This should not be in my package :|
17:23:31 <alise> wait, or should it?
17:23:48 <alise> Gregor: Should the README etc. in my binary package's tar.gz be -r--r--r--? :P
17:23:56 <alise> Or something saner like... being owner-writeable?
17:23:58 <Gregor> It should be -r--------
17:24:20 <alise> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird ehird 1368 2010-09-28 17:21 appicon.xpm ;; why does this show as purple x_x
17:24:57 <Gregor> It shows up as Media Purple.
17:25:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, Microsoft IRC#?
17:25:59 <Gregor> Vorpal: My IRC client of choice!
17:26:20 <alise> Vorpal the highly intelligent philosopher
17:26:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: GoL has cooler physics than real life.
17:26:44 <Vorpal> now, someone needs to port Microsoft Comic Chat to .NET
17:26:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I want to try drawing Fenman diagrams for it at some point.
17:27:10 <alise> The GoL scientist.
17:27:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that sounds like a quite cool way to represent GOL collisions
17:27:19 <alise> How can I get myself an ash cloud easily?
17:27:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm, wait maybe not, since it depends on exactly where they hit each other
17:28:04 <Vorpal> I mean, a glider hitting a large space shit at the top or near the end would result in different things probably
17:28:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Then wait for it to die out?
17:28:19 <Vorpal> alise, yeah weird typo
17:28:47 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, not easily explained by qwerty
17:28:50 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no, it makes a standard ash cloud, which I then shoot with a Gosper gun to see what happens.
17:28:57 <Vorpal> unlike simple i/o swaps or such
17:29:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It is uber-slow zoomed in.
17:29:26 <Phantom_Hoover> The collision rate is fairly low, but it tends to grow a big cloud where it hits and obscure itself.
17:29:28 <alise> In fact, it is uber-slow with quicklife altogether.
17:29:41 <alise> Or rather it just doesn't update the display.
17:29:45 <Phantom_Hoover> And *every* GTK Golly I've used was slow when zoomed in.
17:29:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: This one is slow *zoomed out*.
17:29:55 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no, it makes a standard ash cloud, which I then shoot with a Gosper gun to see what happens. <-- hm, so now I know who to blame the next time flights are cancelled due to that
17:29:59 <alise> It literally *does not update the display* on step=10^5.
17:30:30 <alise> Vorpal: The other white meat.
17:30:34 <Vorpal> alise, hashlife would have 8^n usually iirc
17:30:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Does 10^5 update the display for you when zoomed out to scale=1:1?
17:30:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Conclusion: Quicklife is never good for more than about 10 seconds.
17:32:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I saw some degenerate case where quicklife beat hashlife easily
17:32:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, a random fill is probably best stabilised with Quicklife.
17:32:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed
17:33:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this was some long-term random exhaust thingy iirc
17:33:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how do you build resilient life structures?
17:33:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If I scribble with 1:1 scale and 10^4 steps (just random lines), press play: the next time it updates it's still life.
17:34:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is ash cloud something specific?
17:34:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Not really, it's just the medium-density mix of still-lifes and oscillators you get when stuff explodes.
17:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It's very difficult to get a sustained reaction in it, though.
17:35:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Surely a dense packing of still lifes and oscillators is even better?
17:35:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, self repairing life structures would be interesting
17:36:01 <Vorpal> alise, might interact causing chain reactions perhaps?
17:36:39 <alise> not if you place them non-stupidly
17:36:57 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, if there is some void in between perhaps certain patterns will die out instead of causing a chain reaction. Just a conjecture
17:37:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: OTOH, it random fills very quickly
17:37:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Ash is good exactly because it's what's left over after chaos dies out; it's by definition the stuff that supports reactions the worst.
17:37:53 <alise> ~1600x1600 cloud filled to 50% in less than a second.
17:38:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: How quickly does yours do that?
17:40:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So, 1:1 scale, 10^4 steps, draw a lot of random scribbles -- next visual update, is it all still life and oscillators? Do the oscillators never seem to move after that?
17:41:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is it possible to have sustained chaos in life?
17:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> If the oscillators have an even period, like most common ones, they will never seem to move at all.
17:41:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you used it above
17:41:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Answer the rest,then. :P
17:42:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Then no, since normal chaotic patterns are short-lived.
17:42:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why is that the case?
17:42:28 <Phantom_Hoover> You can have puffers etc. which have very messy and aperiodic output, though.
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17:42:50 <Phantom_Hoover> But they leave an ash cloud rather than anything active.
17:43:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so any chaos needs to be "fed" then all the time?
17:43:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, has it been proven that chaotic behaviour can't be self sustaining?
17:44:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how does chaos theory define it?
17:47:40 <Vorpal> hm, is there a name for a "garden of eden pattern, except that it is a still life, and thus have itself as predecessor, but no other patterns"
17:47:53 <Vorpal> and are any such known?
17:51:01 * Phantom_Hoover builds a massive chained Gosper and fires it at the ash cloud.
17:51:32 <Phantom_Hoover> My money's on an instant chaotic reaction, followed by the gun being destroyed by gliders coming off it.
17:53:07 <Ilari> What's "stable" garden of eden?
17:53:45 <Phantom_Hoover> One which is a still-life, but has no other predecessors.
17:53:56 <fizzie> One where they didn't put that silly tree in.
17:55:06 <alise> `addquote <Ilari> What's "stable" garden of eden? <fizzie> One where they didn't put that silly tree in.
17:56:05 <Ilari> Wonder what that kind of pattern would look like and what would be the smallest example...
17:56:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably a still-life that looks like it should be chaotic.
17:56:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Suggestion: Use the binary for now.
17:57:30 <Phantom_Hoover> But I got the CVS version working perfectly for 64-bitness with g++!
17:58:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 64-bitness won't speed it up.
17:58:30 <alise> I don't think it uses many registers.
17:59:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Trust me, the binary release is the smoothest.
17:59:20 <HackEgo> 229|<Ilari> What's "stable" garden of eden? <fizzie> One where they didn't put that silly tree in.
17:59:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I haven't had any issues with the CVS version, so I'll just stick to it anyway.
18:00:23 <alise> Relink me that RLE one last time?
18:02:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: pweeze? :3
18:02:43 -!- Harpyon has joined.
18:03:47 <alise> I WANT THE LESS AWESOME ONE
18:04:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wait, what?
18:04:29 <alise> my clipboard gets truncated
18:04:45 <alise> x = 38, y = 1, rule = B3/S23
18:06:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The first one does not look like a glider gun o_O
18:06:59 <alise> i downloaded the raw link, dude
18:07:34 <alise> it has a doctype in it
18:08:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So I create an ash cloud by waiting until 10% random noise stabilises, right?
18:08:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you can use any random fill that's not too sparse.
18:09:59 <Phantom_Hoover> But I'm trying to see what happens when you hit a fairly sparse cloud with a dense stream here.
18:10:33 <alise> lawl the glider gun dies
18:11:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it sustains a chaotic reaction at the end rather than destroying still lifes.
18:12:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Golly needs an ash cloud generator.
18:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> What, by random filling and stopping any escaping gliders?
18:14:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Random fill, then simulate only that area, wrapping.
18:14:29 <alise> Until it turns into oscillators or takes like 3498573945734985793845934759 generations as a safeguard.
18:14:34 <alise> (obvious oscillators, that is)
18:14:52 <alise> With hashlife on hyperspeed, so it should be quick.
18:15:05 <alise> You can, but it's tedious.
18:15:12 * alise is filling a huuuuge area right now.
18:15:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: How many Gosper guns can you stack without getting bored?
18:15:30 <alise> Go do that number. Gogogo.
18:15:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: SO AM I
18:15:51 <alise> Write a script for it
18:16:27 <Phantom_Hoover> And I can get exponential growth for the Gospers pretty easily, so there's no immediate limit.
18:17:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I mean in terms of you making it, how bored you get.
18:18:08 <alise> Say, 100 of them would be good.
18:18:20 <alise> I have a 12,657 x 6,401 block of ash to destroy.
18:18:24 <alise> Give or take a bit.
18:18:49 <ais523> streams of gliders destroy ash, rather than just making it worse?
18:18:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not 100 of them.
18:18:56 <alise> lawl, this is so slow
18:19:02 <alise> it's counting up generations like seconds on a clock
18:19:08 <alise> with hyperspeed hashlife
18:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> The gliders feed the chaos from the first collisions with the cloud, so you just end up with a giant column of junk until a glider gets ejected up one of the barrels and destroys the whole thing.
18:22:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that brings up the issue of beehive crystals.
18:23:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps two streams next to each other with high periods.
18:23:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps SURROUNDING IT WITH DEATH
18:23:27 <alise> Literally surrounding it with TONS OF GUNS
18:23:59 <alise> Also, anything to "crystals" here other than the obvious?
18:24:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: SHADDAP
18:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover> A beehive crystal is a formation of beehives that grows towards the source when hit by a low-enough period glider stream
18:24:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm.
18:25:17 <Phantom_Hoover> But I'm using a p360 gun right now, so it's a potential problem.
18:25:19 <alise> Life defence system: A bunch of eaters of different kinds, to catch the newbies packed as closely as possible to a low depth around the exterior, then a GIGANTIC ASH CLOUD, then another bunch of eaters.
18:25:27 <alise> Whatever's inside is basically invincible.
18:27:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Beehive crystals tend to be stopped when the head is stopped by some junk, and the glider stream destroys the rest.
18:29:00 <alise> what IS a beehive crystal anyway?
18:30:25 <alise> http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/ca/replicators/b36s245.html Building a glider gun from replicators.
18:31:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Builds then destroys beehive crystals over and over again.
18:31:11 <alise> omg, that replicator is so pretty to watch
18:31:16 <alise> (the images link to RLE files)
18:32:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: name some trivially conservative rules, btw?
18:33:27 <alise> What about B0/S12345678?
18:33:30 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> HPP in the weaker formulation. ;; ??
18:34:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Strong version: "all state counts are constant." Weak version: "there exists no pattern which will evolve such that only one state count changes."
18:34:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Strong and weak are equivalent for 2-state CAs, but not for 3 states.
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18:41:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, the p360 stream got through 25,000 cells of low-density ash without a problem.
18:53:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I did need to intervene to destroy a beehive crystal early on, but since then it's been making inroads
18:54:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ...And it has successfully drilled through a 50% density ash cloud..
18:55:11 <alise> a TC conservative CA would be amazing... well
18:55:21 <alise> a conservative CA that is TC if you have an infinite tiling, say
18:55:31 <alise> (still lifes that can be converted into others and read, i.e. infinite memory)
18:55:48 <alise> or not even infinite tiling, just an infinite downwards line
18:57:40 <Vorpal> what is a good way to destroy ash hm?
18:57:48 <Vorpal> apart from select and clear, which is cheating
18:57:55 <Phantom_Hoover> By building a Minsky machine with sliding-block registers.
18:58:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, I just got through a lot of high-density ash with a high-period stream.
18:58:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Huh? Hm, right.
18:58:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, what?
18:58:38 <alise> So the distance between X and Y is the value of XY, that is?
18:58:41 <alise> How would you compute with it?
18:58:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, won't that make it worse by creating new ash?
18:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, it threw off some gliders which you would have to watch out for.
18:59:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also "beehive crystal"?
18:59:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not on life wiki it seems
18:59:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, line of beehives that grows when hit with a high-enough period glider stream/
18:59:54 <Vorpal> There is no page titled "beehive crystal". You can create this page.
19:00:17 <Vorpal> no full text search matches either
19:00:41 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, line of beehives that grows when hit with a high-enough period glider stream/
19:00:58 <Vorpal> alise, yes but then that definition should be added to life wiki maybe?
19:10:06 <alise> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_the_Creation_of_Niggers -- H. P. Lovecraft, 1912
19:10:25 <alise> What NOW, Cthulhu?! You're less ghastly a beast than the Nigger!
19:10:31 <alise> And you have a less strange name!
19:12:47 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:12:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So, Life life.
19:15:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Reversible, conservative, TC CA.
19:15:58 <alise> That would be even closer to "real" physics :P
19:16:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, just because you can't add cells doesn't mean you have to eat food.
19:16:36 <alise> You can just have a glider or whatever that moves forever.
19:16:41 <alise> You said conservative would be good to enforce food-gathering.
19:16:43 <alise> But that's not true.
19:17:00 <Vorpal> alise, how can it be TC if it is conservative?
19:17:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ahh.
19:17:19 <alise> Vorpal: What Phantom_Hoover said.
19:17:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, MRM being?
19:17:31 <alise> minksy register machine
19:17:59 <Vorpal> is that the one with bignum registers? Or is that another one?
19:18:32 <Vorpal> actually there is an obvious way to do it conservatively. Encode data as distance between some live cells
19:18:40 <alise> that's what Phantom_Hoover said
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19:21:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:26:25 <alise> To repeat to PH when he gets back:
19:26:33 <alise> A reversible CA would make glider synthesis hard.
19:26:45 <alise> For instance, you couldn't synthesize an oscillator or a still life.
19:26:53 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: No route to host).
19:27:00 <alise> Or indeed generate one at all; it would have to be in the initial configuration.
19:27:01 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:27:10 <alise> Additionally, if there is *any* way to produce a pattern or effect, it is the *only* way.
19:28:34 <alise> www.conwaylife.com/pattern.asp?...
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19:34:50 <Vorpal> alise, what's with the ...?
19:35:00 <Phantom_Hoover> 11:26:45 <alise> For instance, you couldn't synthesize an oscillator or a still life. ← I think it's theoretically possible.
19:35:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not in reversible no
19:35:18 <alise> Vorpal: truncated irrelevance
19:35:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: still life X has parent X
19:35:30 <alise> has no parent Y (last step of synthesis)
19:35:30 <Phantom_Hoover> 2 spaceships collide and throw off another (different) spaceship and drop a still life.
19:35:34 <alise> Vorpal: the >_< was at .asp
19:35:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah yes
19:35:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i don't see how that would work
19:35:58 <alise> that would have a parent of still life X being last step of that synthesis
19:36:05 <alise> if there's other things around
19:37:07 <Vorpal> hm any reversible CA would be a conservative right?
19:37:12 <ais523> it's much like using dump tape elements in Reversible Brainfuck to compile regular Brainfuck commands into it
19:37:39 <ais523> Vorpal: simple counterexample: take a reversible CA that is conservative and uses two colours, make it swap black and white every step but otherwise act the same
19:37:48 <Phantom_Hoover> It's essentially the same concept as the bit bucket for reversible Boolean gates.
19:41:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: in the conservative civilisation, they have drones that move the still life debris from machines out where nobody can see it
19:41:04 <ais523> or store it in a way you could retrieve it again, I suppose
19:41:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Designing a CA with 3 undecidable properties isn't easy, though.
19:41:14 <alise> you don't have to design for TC
19:41:22 <alise> just keep designing for the other two and select ones that show complex behaviour
19:41:28 <alise> then hope fervently
19:41:45 <Phantom_Hoover> We can make the reaction reversible for the things in the universe.
19:42:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Collide the junk ship with the still-life and get the two ships that were thrown off originally.
19:43:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Can", as in "if you're the most amazing CA designer ever".
19:44:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also in this category: "Running it backwards *obeys the forwards transition rules*! SOMEHOW!"
19:44:38 <alise> (Although that's actually in the opposite category.)
19:44:43 <alise> Obeys the... backwards transition rules?
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19:44:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If the way to reverse something can be expressed as a CA
19:44:54 <alise> then you have two CAs
19:44:58 <alise> which are time-reversals of each other
19:45:02 <alise> (is this possible?)
19:45:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: DAY AND NIGHT MISTER :P
19:46:44 -!- Gregor_ has changed nick to Gregor.
19:46:49 -!- augur has joined.
19:46:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But yes: is it possible for a reversible CA's reverse-rules to be CA themselves?
19:46:58 <alise> *to be a CA themselves?
19:47:01 <alise> Of the same "class".
19:49:20 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGkkyKZVzug
19:49:21 <alise> 16-bit ALU in minecraft
19:49:31 <alise> It's a COMPUTER CITY!
19:50:12 <alise> Vorpal: DID YOU NOT SEE
19:50:16 <alise> WATCH THE VIDEO!! YOU MUST :|
19:54:19 -!- olsner_ has joined.
19:55:28 <alise> Also features pig abuse
19:56:16 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:58:58 <fizzie> Youtube is being slow, but I'll pause it and let it load.
19:59:31 <alise> http://www.instantelevatormusic.com/ for Windows!
19:59:39 <alise> Instant Elevator Music will automatically play elevator music while you wait for programs to open, files to copy, and downloads to download.
20:00:47 <fizzie> The water physics are so incredibly realistic: http://zem.fi/~fis/realistic-water.png
20:02:07 <fizzie> Also, apparently if you do a 2x2 pit, and unbucket two "fountains" to the opposite corners, they'll fill the two other squares too, and then you'll have a 2x2 block of still water, from which you can take infinite buckets of water from, since any hole you make will be semi-instantly refilled.
20:06:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:09:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do post the rules.
20:10:01 -!- antivigilante has joined.
20:10:08 -!- |EOF| has joined.
20:10:22 * oerjan shoots the antivigilante
20:10:37 <|EOF|> were you already here?
20:11:15 <alise> * antivigilante (~antivigil@63-225-203-9.phnx.qwest.net) has joined #esoteric
20:11:16 <alise> * |EOF| (461e569b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.30.86.155) has joined #esoteric
20:11:23 <alise> antivigilante: who you hi
20:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, http://pastebin.com/1rYZcC7j is the tree, http://pastebin.com/LAJNVmuy the table I compiled it from.
20:12:52 <alise> so the first one goes into golly?
20:13:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: WHERE I SAVE IT
20:14:14 <oerjan> IT IS UNREDEEMABLE, IT CANNOT BE SAVED
20:18:00 <alise> is the table worse or sth?
20:18:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: give it a name :P
20:18:32 <|EOF|> ima make a an HDCP master key implementation in silicon
20:18:51 <alise> |EOF|: nobody cares
20:19:04 <|EOF|> then intel's going to go to my house and murder me
20:19:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'd say Death, but that'd be more suited to an actual CA.
20:19:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Last Cell Standing?
20:19:32 <alise> Mortal? Mortal Danger?
20:20:13 <|EOF|> ima go do several drugs in series and brag about it
20:23:12 <alise> |EOF|: if they incapacitate you to the point where you go away, I approve.
20:24:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, smashing gliders into stuff doesn't change its colour.
20:25:10 <alise> antivigilante: *THEIR, unless you're being comprehensible.
20:25:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Dood, I need a name.
20:30:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: :|
20:34:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Link?
20:35:05 -!- |EOF| has changed nick to CakeProphet.
20:35:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Mortal Cellbat
20:39:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, http://pastebin.com/TiY2HeQe but you'll need to compile it to a tree with RuleTableToTree.
20:43:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: How about you do that :P
20:43:29 <alise> Ugh, it won't read stdin.
20:43:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Name it :P
20:44:26 <oerjan> CakeProphet: not being on the right freenode account makes that a _teeny_ bit unconvincing
20:47:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: okay.
20:47:45 <Phantom_Hoover> It's another one of those things which someone else has definitely invented, but I can't actually find.
20:47:46 <oerjan> incidentally afaict the new server software seems to make it a lot more awkward to find out whether someone's nick _is_ identified - whois gives me the account you're logged in as but i have to ask nickserv to tell whether your nick actually belongs to it...
20:48:11 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/.golly$ /usr/lib/golly/RuleTableToTree DoubleLife
20:48:11 <alise> Error: Error reading Rules/DoubleLife.table on line 3: symmetries:permute
20:48:24 <oerjan> well i guess i could _just_ ask nickserv
20:48:30 <alise> oerjan: or look at their ident
20:48:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: FIX IT :|
20:49:46 <oerjan> alise: oh hm. /whois in irssi actually doesn't seem to tell that
20:50:34 <alise> oerjan: doesn't seem to work here either :D
20:51:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Example file? :P
20:52:24 <alise> What are the rules?
20:53:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Birth and survival are the same, but a cell becomes the same colour as the majority of its neighbours.
20:57:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: .colors, please?
20:57:20 <alise> or does it not have any?
20:58:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Does random fill work?
20:59:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: now how do i count the population of each? >_>
21:00:13 <alise> and how do i stop it showing everything as red when i zoom out :P
21:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And Golly shows everything with state 1's colours when it can't give each cell a pixel.
21:01:30 -!- hailtothethief has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:01:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 100% random fill whomfg
21:02:25 <Phantom_Hoover> histogram.py looks like it gives cell counts on a state-by-state basis.
21:03:03 <alise> 80% random fill = instadeath
21:04:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: go to 1:1 in hexadecimal.mc, scribble a bit in the corner of one cell
21:04:29 <alise> still manages to get 00 up though
21:07:54 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:08:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, I know.
21:08:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But it's still amusing.
21:08:57 <alise> Will it ever get to the next number?!
21:09:09 -!- nooga has joined.
21:12:09 <Phantom_Hoover> You can also sabotage the edge-detectors on the metacells and something interesting happens, but I forget what.
21:16:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Changing one pixel in the complex pattern of the top-left cell makes everything go normally until that cell is turned on.
21:16:21 <alise> Everything leaks out
21:17:25 <Phantom_Hoover> This is why I went on at such length about sparseness and redundancy for Lifeforms.
21:21:14 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:21:31 -!- augur has joined.
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21:25:20 <alise> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627653.800-first-replicating-creature-spawned-in-life-simulator.html?full=true
21:25:24 -!- augur has joined.
21:25:24 <alise> only gets the first few paragraphs, but he
21:27:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: eh, i've talked to TimBL, that's probably my height of celebrity-feeling
21:27:33 <alise> (he's in, or at least used to be in, #foaf quite a lot)
21:27:55 <alise> that's more like an anti-achievement :P
21:27:57 <alise> i once fucked bill clinton
21:28:25 <alise> I once created the universe.
21:29:14 <alise> http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/Kids.html
21:29:20 <alise> possibly my favourite thing of all time
21:29:25 <alise> "At CERN, people study High Energy Physics. That is the physics of really really small particles - particles much smaller than atoms. It turns out that if you want to investigate really really small things, you need huge machines called accelerators to smash particles together really hard. Then you have huge gadgets (about the size of a house) which detects what happens, and what bits fly off, so you can figure out whether you managed to make any new types o
21:29:25 <alise> CERN is a big place - a few thousand people work there. Many of them are scientists whose jobs are at universities in different places in the world, and they come to CERN because they need to use the huge accelerators at CERN."
21:30:25 <alise> @@@ This really needs lots of nice diagrams @@@
21:31:08 <alise> "But I am doing a project where we have to get "primary" sources, which means I have to interview the subject. And I'm doing it on you. So I have to interview you."
21:31:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Make movable ash.
21:31:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Another kind of movable defence, then.
21:32:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Loads of moving spaceships is basically the only thing which would work very well.
21:33:52 <Phantom_Hoover> And by "very well" I mean "would destroy anything behind it if it clipped a glider.
21:34:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: UC + precalculated ash
21:35:12 <alise> + ash ... destroyer? never mind
21:35:17 <alise> it could leave behind a trail of ash somehow, i guess
21:35:30 <alise> like have its own secret path through the ash's membrane
21:35:32 <alise> that lets it sort of
21:35:39 <alise> and build more ash after that
21:35:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ooh?
21:35:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Have a standard puffer moving just in front and to the side of the command ship.
21:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't throw off any gliders IIRC, so you get some fairly high-density ash.
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21:49:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Can you have a puffer that goes
21:49:14 <alise> down down down STOP at barrier
21:49:17 <alise> and then starts going upwards
21:49:19 <alise> a bit to the right?
21:49:29 <alise> with little blockers at the top
21:49:37 <alise> that the puffer crashing into blocks
21:49:42 <alise> just have a continuous glider stream in front
21:50:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It leaves a trail of debris and fires gliders forwards.
21:51:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That's okay, whatever's inside will be slower.
21:51:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Although it has to angle right so that the ship never crashes into it... somehow.
21:51:53 <alise> Oh, just have an opening in the middle that the ship can pass through.
21:52:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Switch engines move diagonally at c/12, and they can be stabilised into Corderships, which are almost certainly capable of making circuitry.
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22:00:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what's the shortest stick that grows indefinitely?
22:00:45 <alise> i guess that's a replicator :P
22:01:10 <alise> it expands forever
22:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It fires a switch engine on each side, so it's not a replicator.
22:01:50 <alise> [[*starts plotting how to create a spaceship that can inject its own program into other Gemini spaceships*]]
22:01:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh yeah that, i think i've seen that. maybe.
22:05:38 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:05:59 <alise> "If anyone is interested, I've made a script to convert patterns consisting of well-spaced blocks, eaters, beehives, boats, tubs and loaves into a Geminoid glider synthesis. Andrew's original pattern looks like this has been done manually, with some primitive recursion in the YAML program. ('Primitive recursion' is the technical term for this; I'm not disparaging your work!"
22:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> You should be able to test with a charged copper sphere and a magnet, actually.
22:09:25 <alise> "In point of fact, I've gotten through a couple of design cycles for a Gemini gun now, and oddly enough it looks like it will run faster than a Gemini does for the first half of the first construction"
22:09:25 <olsner_> I think they're electrically evil
22:09:55 <alise> "However, there are quite a number of common still lifes that it cannot construct, severely limiting its use." ;; wrong!
22:10:09 <alise> construct a UC not using those that happens to have a program to create that still life pre-loaded >:)
22:11:00 <alise> http://www.cranemtn.com/life/files/gemi ... 820116.zip
22:11:00 <alise> http://www.cranemtn.com/life/files/gemi ... 076540.zip
22:11:00 <alise> http://www.cranemtn.com/life/files/gemi ... 712268.zip
22:11:06 <alise> ais523: it's a Game of Life spaceship
22:11:13 <alise> first, it creates a copy of itself
22:11:17 <ais523> oh, programmable devices that create arbitrary objects via glider collisions?
22:11:18 <alise> and then, the copy erases the previous copy
22:11:20 <alise> this repeats forever
22:11:29 <ais523> hmm, with an interesting twist
22:11:32 <alise> ais523: already done, and not so arbitrary here
22:11:40 <alise> ais523: the thing is that replicators in life are HARD
22:11:46 <alise> and nobody was sure they were possible until a few years ago
22:11:54 <alise> whereas in most Life-like automata, they're very simple
22:11:57 <ais523> is it a replicator if it deletes itself?
22:12:00 <alise> this is a *momentous* occasion, its discovery
22:12:04 <alise> ais523: sure, you can easily disable that
22:12:09 <alise> and THEN deletes itself
22:12:11 <alise> not in the process of
22:12:13 <ais523> also, infinite vertical column of black is a replicator
22:12:21 <alise> wow you're boring :)
22:12:31 <alise> this is a *big* deal
22:12:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i said years
22:12:59 <alise> ais523: its speed, incidentally, is (5120,1024)c/33699586
22:13:03 <ais523> yep, it's "simply" a matter of taking an arbitrary-constructor-object, then quining it
22:13:06 <alise> that can be improved a bit and reduced arbitrarily
22:13:14 <alise> ais523: you can't have such a constructor
22:13:22 <alise> glider synthesis is limited
22:13:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: before the Spartan?
22:13:45 <alise> wait, wasn't it 2004?
22:13:48 <ais523> you'd have to make it out of synthesizable components
22:13:58 <alise> ais523: you know, everyone else who liked Life had a heart attack when this happened :P
22:14:12 <alise> "John Conway proved that such a pattern exists in Life, and an outline of the proof can be found in Winning Ways for Your Mathematical Plays and The Recursive Universe."
22:14:23 <alise> Since at least 1982.
22:14:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I had just started following the Life forums when it was posted.
22:15:05 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how long it would take to modify one of those TC Life computers with a synthesizer arm to be glider-synthesizable?
22:15:15 <ais523> after that, making it replicate would be relatively easy
22:15:42 <ais523> you'd also have to encode an initial program into it, but you could just glider that across after it was made
22:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> The Spartan UCC could have been made into a replicator, but it would have taken too long.
22:16:23 <alise> ais523: it's not that hard, really
22:16:32 <alise> gemini took a simpler approach, though
22:16:41 <alise> it's not a UTM, i don't think
22:16:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: which gemini gun is the coolest?
22:17:02 <ais523> nor do you have to be to produce a quine
22:17:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know anything about them, other than that the image I looked at was labelled with Comic Sans and that this made me angry.
22:18:17 -!- CakeProphet has changed nick to |THE.
22:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It feels weird to think that I've only known about Life for 4 years at the most.
22:18:41 <Sgeo> I've known about Life for much about Life
22:18:41 -!- |THE has changed nick to |EOF|.
22:18:45 <ais523> is it /that/ lifechanging?
22:19:05 <alise> athough not as much as wolfram things
22:19:08 <Sgeo> Fantasized about one of my elementary school friends doing... stuff with Life
22:19:41 <Sgeo> No. Not in a dirty way
22:19:50 <alise> "Non-dirty Life porn!"
22:20:23 <alise> wow, i've left the hexadecimal running all this time
22:20:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You know there's a metafier script in the Python collection?
22:21:14 <ais523> instead of a universal computer, you'd just need a programmable synthesizer
22:21:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It takes any B/S rule pattern and makes metacells which simulate it in Life.
22:21:19 <alise> gemini gun is frickin' huge
22:21:20 <ais523> which could be beamed the program from outside
22:21:41 <alise> ais523: that's basically gemini, except it knows its own pattern
22:22:05 <ais523> by duplicating an existing information feed? or via some other mechanism?
22:22:46 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, Gemini design: two constructor/reflector units keeping a glider loop between them. They build the next units and copy the genome across.
22:22:56 <alise> holy shit it's huge
22:23:08 <ais523> I'd like to see a glider gun puffer sometime
22:23:10 <alise> the geminis are as big as gliders
22:24:03 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=399&sid=ee767eaaabb71ce2dcdbe63aa2c271c4&start=50#p3121 ;; "I'm a journalist, please do my Game of Life-related journalism for me"
22:24:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, seems surprising that that was discovered before space-filler-stretchers
22:24:39 <ais523> the second seems simpler in a way
22:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Synthing a glider gun is rather easier than finding a wavefront and stabilising it.
22:27:35 <alise> "BlackBerry PlayBook ★
22:27:35 <alise> Announced today during RIM’s developer conference. 7-inches diagonal, runs the QNX OS that RIM bought earlier this year."
22:27:39 <alise> your dream come true
22:27:54 <alise> "The tablet will utilize an OS created by the recently acquired QNX (just as we'd heard previous to the announcement) called the BlackBerry Tablet OS [...]"
22:30:05 <|EOF|> how do *you* say it?
22:31:06 <ais523> the correct pronunciation is along the lines of "gouse"
22:31:18 <ais523> by analogy with "house"
22:31:40 <|EOF|> http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:EnUk4Vy1WCcJ:www.mathnet.or.kr/mathnet/kms_tex/980598.pdf+gaussier&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESid9-HVMOyHz15NJkuVrT_DC7Q0jaO4GtX8vyTt0NLcDAH4bVq3Xf9q2NjSTWQPm_ara3A7nZohiJXnkCEqKRe1afjd75eRrwY2gMCF8qzMpciENNEDDa80_VGpPNY27EldQaFt&sig=AHIEtbQVJUqjEavc_blLJnpE9Z11v_8rrw
22:34:52 <olsner_> bah, who cares how it's pronounced
22:35:10 <olsner_> I think each language should choose a pronounciation they can get right and stick with it
22:35:29 <olsner_> instead of trying and failing at whatever the original language is
22:35:32 -!- olsner_ has changed nick to olsner.
22:35:33 <alise> Star gate is a pattern based on the Fast Forward Force Field that was created on October 26, 1996 by Dietrich Leithner. It is a period 60 oscillator that allows lightweight spaceships to jump forward at the superluminous speed of 15c/14. Specifically, lightweight spaceships entering from the left jump by 30 cells along their path in 28 generations.
22:35:39 <alise> someone please correct this misconception
22:35:42 <fizzie> Gaussian blur, gas'n'blow.
22:35:47 <alise> does it actually make travel faster, just not information transfer?
22:35:51 <Phantom_Hoover> And you don't say "hoss", so it's not as if you don't have the phoneme.
22:36:01 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Star_gate
22:36:07 <alise> yes, but the page disagreed
22:36:46 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fast_forward_force_field at least acknowledges that it's an illusion
22:36:54 <alise> "Leithner named the Fast Forward Force Field in honour of his favourite science fiction writer, the physicist Robert L. Forward."
22:37:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: if you stacked a bunch of stargates almost right after each other, then fired a spaceship from the start
22:37:51 <alise> it'd reach the end faster than the spaceship but slower than c, right?
22:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover> The spaceship comes out the end regardless of the input, IIRC.
22:38:25 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Teleportation states authoritatively that it's actually superluminal all over the page lawl
22:38:44 <alise> ...that replicators are known to exist in Conway's Game of Life, but none have yet been found?
22:38:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: fix that too :P
22:39:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Although there is a distinctive jump in the ships position, it does not qualify as superluminal motion because it is not sustained; moreover to be effective it depends on the distance between the bow of the teleportee and the stern of the advanced image. Leithner constructed a Stargate which, by renewing and repeating the force field, can impart an impulse to a whole procession of ships, but they must arriv
22:39:43 <Phantom_Hoover> e in synchrony with the field. The refactory period of the force field, the size of the debris cloud, and the ability to create the necessary glider streams in time all affect the design. When the actual distance covered by a designated glider is divided by the number of generations elapsed, the result is no longer superluminal; only apparently so over short stretches.
22:40:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "no longer superluminal" -- it never was
22:40:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, tell alise of your proof that the Moore neighbourhood cannot exist on a sphere.
22:41:17 <alise> http://www.skilledtests.com/wiki/Template:Game_of_Life --> http://www.skilledtests.com/wiki/Conway's_Game_of_Life
22:41:22 <alise> (yes, it's meant to show as template code)
22:41:27 <alise> because it saves as an actual invocation on page save
22:41:29 <alise> meaning it gets evaluated
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22:42:35 <alise> how can you be less civilised than m4 :P
22:43:13 <olsner> isn't there a whole chain of less civilized tools below m4? like perl for instance
22:45:26 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/images/0/0f/Unidimensional_infinite.png
22:45:38 <alise> olsner: have you ever used m4??
22:45:54 <ais523> m4's a perfectly good esolang
22:46:27 <olsner> haven't written any m4 programs, just some minor sendmail configuration and autoconfing
22:48:12 <ais523> create the page Wikipedia:Main_Page/Errors (even though it'll be in the wrong namespace), then complain that they don't have the relevant page for reporting in the exact same place as Wikipedia
22:48:57 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Spaceships_with_speed_2560c/16849793
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22:56:31 -!- ais523 has changed nick to Glais523.
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23:01:01 <Glais523> someone notes a couple of people in the same channel have nicks starting with Gla
23:01:06 <Glais523> so other people also change their nicks to start with Gla
23:01:17 <Glais523> people in /other channels/ notice a lot of changes to start with Gla, so follow suit
23:01:24 <Glais523> hopefully it'll fizzle before it becomes self-sustaining
23:02:18 <olsner> Glais523: afaict you're the only one in the whole world applying this meme
23:03:09 -!- Glais523 has changed nick to ais523.
23:03:14 <olsner> no other channel I'm in has any gla:ers at all
23:03:32 <ais523> probably doesn't have much of an intersection with the others, it started in #nethack
23:03:55 <olsner> so #nethack is full of them?
23:04:15 <ais523> was, it fizzled there after a while
23:04:31 <ais523> but spread to other nethack-related channels in the meantime
23:04:35 <ais523> where I hope it ended, but it's hard to tell
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23:09:05 <oerjan> obviously it's not ending, just glacial
23:10:06 <Sgeo> Other NetHack related channels?
23:10:45 <ais523> I'm in 5 nethack-related channels at the moment, but those are two of the larger ones
23:11:07 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Glasgeo.
23:11:48 <Glasgeo> Sadly, I doubt the two other channels I am in are capable of sustaining memes like this
23:12:17 <Glasgeo> Well, one, not counting the +m that I just lef
23:18:11 <oerjan> +m means NO MEMES, silly
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23:42:36 <cpressey> "This directory is still sort of wrecked from the great disk crash. Damn. Last updated May 10, 1999."
23:52:11 <olsner> 'kodkok' sounds a bit like swedish for making a stew out of code
23:53:34 <alise> The actual poll on time.com's front page: http://i.imgur.com/qZdqK.jpg
23:54:27 <nooga> Polish: kod -> code, kok -> chignon
23:56:41 <olsner> 'kok' is the noun form of 'koka' which means to cook or to boil, so making a foo-boil would typically mean stewing the foo or something like that
23:57:50 <cpressey> http://www.staringispolite.com/likepython/
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00:05:59 <nooga> olsner: koka means cocaine in pl
00:08:29 <olsner> obviously we have other words for it since koka is already taken :)
00:08:57 <nooga> eh, it's kokaina exactly
00:11:30 <nooga> because we have some words that sound alike... um: smak - taste, some ppl say penga - money and tryknąć - to push
00:12:32 <nooga> instead of pieniądze - money and nacisnąć - to push
00:14:46 <nooga> but how would you explain smak, penga and tryk
00:15:37 <oerjan> well penga and variants is common in several languages
00:15:47 <oerjan> german Pfennig, english penny
00:16:18 <nooga> but we've got złoty
00:16:41 <nooga> and złoty means - golden
00:17:03 <oerjan> and we've got kron[ea], but peng[ea]r is the word for money
00:17:46 <olsner> czech money is also kronor (with weirder spelling, kurona or something like that)
00:17:56 <oerjan> hungarian pengö (actually should be a long accent on the o)
00:18:40 <nooga> http://www.empi2.pl/obudowa/slownik/files/banknoty2.jpg kickass kings
00:18:41 <olsner> I wonder if the beer brand slots (I think it's danish) is actually a form of golden, it would make sense for it to be a cognate for zloty
00:18:44 <Glasgeo> I'll probably watch on Hulu tomorrow
00:19:07 <oerjan> no, slot(t)? means castle
00:19:51 <oerjan> well more likely, anyhow
00:20:30 <olsner> of course it does, but that doesn't mean that's the root they're referring to
00:22:17 <oerjan> well they _could_ just be loanwords
00:22:42 <oerjan> it's also smeck or something like that in german, i think
00:22:49 <olsner> sweden was all over europe pwning around, a few hundred years ago
00:23:24 <olsner> at least it accounts for some weird loans of words and culture
00:23:29 <oerjan> drücken or something like that in german
00:23:43 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(history)
00:23:54 <nooga> tbh Poland was pwned by everyone
00:26:35 <olsner> hmm, 1.30, time to sleep again
00:27:41 <alise> Glasgeo: Young dies
00:28:04 <olsner> I wonder what the heck we need sleep for, if there's maintenance to be done why can't it just be *done* instead of requiring hours of hibernation
00:28:12 <Glasgeo> I don't think it even aired yet!
00:28:20 <alise> Glasgeo: because spoilers never leak to the internet
00:28:29 <alise> olsner: because it makes us hallucinate crazy shit
00:28:33 <Glasgeo> alise, do you want me to spoil FS for you?
00:28:49 <Glasgeo> So why would you spoil SGU for me?
00:28:50 <alise> olsner: the body's only defence is to make us even 1/4 aware of it happening and also to forget as much as possible
00:28:56 <alise> Glasgeo: because i'm a bastard
00:29:02 <alise> Glasgeo: also, I'm lying
00:29:05 <alise> through my teeth, no less
00:29:18 <alise> although Young might just die, I have no idea, I don't know a single thing about it
00:30:13 * Glasgeo has homework he needs to do :/
00:30:41 <Glasgeo> Also, what I said was more of a threat, really
00:30:47 <olsner> seriously though, why does lack of sleep cause hallucinations of crazy shit?
00:30:52 <alise> i know you're not evil enough to
00:30:58 <alise> except accidentally
00:31:04 <alise> also, you'd never see the end of shit from me if you did :)
00:31:11 <alise> olsner: who knows!
00:31:19 <olsner> alise: I demand answers
00:31:20 <oerjan> he accidentally humanity
00:31:30 <alise> olsner: there probably are answers, just we don't know them
00:31:37 <alise> "There is no universally agreed biological definition of dreaming."
00:31:58 <alise> [[In 1952, Eugene Aserinsky identified and defined rapid eye movement (REM) sleep while working in the surgery of his PhD advisor. Aserinsky noticed that the sleepers' eyes fluttered beneath their closed eyelids, later using a polygraph machine to record their brainwaves during these periods. In one session, he awakened a subject who was wailing and crying out during REM and confirmed his suspicion that dreaming was occurring.[4] In 1953, Aserinsky and his a
00:31:59 <alise> dvisor published the ground-breaking study in Science.[5]]]
00:32:02 <alise> how the heck did it take us that long to realise?
00:32:39 <olsner> afaik, no-one's figured out yawning yet either
00:32:51 <alise> olsner: THAT VIRUS IS TRANSMITTABLE OVER TEXT DAMMIT
00:33:13 <olsner> lol, your irc-brain barrier is failing
00:33:15 <alise> olsner: what we need is a language where the word for yawning is like
00:33:21 <alise> then we'd need have to worry
00:33:26 <alise> oh god now i'm yawning when looking at that
00:33:46 <olsner> in #haskell, they call it yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
00:33:54 <alise> olsner: i'm pretty sure the at least pop science theory is that dreams are your brain sifting through memories and deciding what to junk or not and the like
00:34:14 <alise> thus accessing them, and your brain translates this into a semi-coherent experience as it tries to make sense of the crazy
00:34:20 <alise> olsner: really? (also FUCK YOU)
00:34:45 <olsner> well, sure, brain defrag... just do it in the background dammit
00:34:51 <oerjan> mad theory: the dream world is the real one, we're just hallucinating this one ;D
00:35:24 <alise> olsner: ur doing it wrong
00:35:36 <alise> fun fact: the star wars holiday special is canon
00:35:40 <alise> every single bit of it
00:35:43 <olsner> alise: IRC strips kerning information
00:36:21 <olsner> alise: kerning now also makes you yawn
00:36:32 <olsner> keeeerning, yaaaawning
00:36:34 <nooga> swe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_61s62WKVio vs pl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seUsXbPkiL4 xD
00:36:36 <alise> I HATE YOU SO MUCH
00:37:47 <nooga> my surname is Gasperowicz
00:37:59 <nooga> i hate the word "gasp"
00:39:16 <Gregor> I HATE ALL ONOMATOPOEIAS
00:39:43 <olsner> nooga: this is pronounced e though
00:39:48 <nooga> gasp is not the sound
00:39:57 <nooga> gasp sholud be: sap
00:40:23 <nooga> and the sound that dogs make is: hau hau
00:40:34 <Gregor> nooga: WhoTF makes a sound vaguely similar to "sap" while gasping >_O
00:40:43 <Gregor> If you make that sound, go to a hospital. Immediately.
00:41:10 <nooga> no, srsly, it's written like this
00:41:20 <olsner> oh right, sleeping over yawning it was
00:42:06 <alise> it's more like "hah"
00:42:36 <oerjan> gah now i'm yawning for real
00:43:29 * Glasgeo wonders if he can put alise to sleep over IRC
00:44:21 * oerjan waits for alise to respond with a remark indicating that's all Glasgeo does
00:45:00 <alise> a remark indicating that's all Glasgeo does
00:47:12 <oerjan> disappointment over failure to follow use/mention distinction
00:48:29 <alise> oerjan: remark indicating disappointment over
00:49:06 <oerjan> use of insect obliteration device on alise
00:49:55 <alise> The use–mention distinction is especially important in analytic philosophy.[3] The standard notation for mentioning a term in philosophy and logic is to put it in quotation marks. Notating using italics might require a potentially infinite number of typefaces.[4]
00:53:02 <nooga> incest obliteration
00:55:22 <alise> insect obliteration! ahahahaha oh wait
00:59:31 <nooga> my zangband compilation sometimes writes "incest" instead of "insect"
01:00:25 <alise> zangband is for luzers
01:01:13 <nooga> zangband = more fun than vanilla angband
01:01:34 <alise> nooga: nethack >>> angband
01:01:42 <alise> angband is just a wimp game for losers, it even has a bot that can complete the game
01:01:43 <nooga> nethack is unplayable
01:01:44 <alise> how fucking easy is that?
01:01:52 <nooga> because of goddamn cat
01:01:57 <alise> nooga: you can kill it
01:02:05 <alise> or any number of things
01:02:19 <Glasgeo> nooga, minimize the window when you leave the computer unattended?
01:02:54 <alise> Glasgeo: shut the fuck up
01:03:02 <alise> nooga: Let me make this easy for you. Angband: yeah, there's a bot to play that.
01:03:13 <alise> Nethack: TAEB can get down a few levels... most of the time...
01:03:19 <alise> it can do sokoban...
01:03:29 <Glasgeo> How does it successfully reach sokoban?
01:03:56 <alise> by going down levels until it reaches sokoban
01:03:58 <alise> and then entering sokoban
01:04:23 <Glasgeo> nooga, Xom is never boring! Play Crawl!
01:04:36 <alise> Glasgeo: crawl is a shitty game
01:04:46 <Glasgeo> alise, just because you hate the view
01:04:53 <alise> nope, i played it too
01:05:06 <alise> especially ais' complaint about monsters with super-attacks that they rarely use
01:05:11 <alise> nethack is far better designed
01:05:45 <nooga> nethack is simple and hard
01:06:07 <alise> nethack isn't simple in the boring rogue sense, it's a rich game
01:07:32 <alise> what's the footv bot again
01:07:35 <alise> that's the only good part of crawl
01:09:04 <alise> nice roguelike food idea: corpses start out raw, then mature into an edible state, then go rotten
01:09:12 <alise> perhaps only for a certain race or whatever
01:10:01 <Glasgeo> So corpses are more like fruit?
01:10:46 <alise> explanation could be that it's a species that likes its corpses partially rotten
01:10:59 <alise> a nice thing about nethack is how simple combat is
01:11:04 <alise> unfortunately that's also a point of boredom
01:11:10 <alise> but complex battle planning isn't so fun
01:11:14 <alise> something in-between
01:20:25 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Heat
01:20:32 <alise> everything is at absolute zero in a conservative CA :)
01:20:38 <alise> there is still heat
01:20:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover logreading: ^ work that into the "real-physics" CA :P
01:20:53 <alise> Glasgeo: You, remind me of that tomorrow.
01:23:36 <alise> HEY ME PAY ATTENTION
01:23:37 <alise> HEY ME PAY ATTENTION
01:23:37 <alise> HEY ME PAY ATTENTION
01:23:37 <alise> HEY ME PAY ATTENTION
01:23:39 <alise> ELIJGLKJSGDFGJSDFKGSHGKSJLDFG
01:25:17 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Overweight_spaceship
01:25:18 <alise> An overweight spaceship (or OWSS for short) is a would-be spaceship similar to the lightweight spaceship, middleweight spaceship and heavyweight spaceship, but longer. On its own an overweight spaceship is unstable because the three cells at its top do not die off like the corresponding sparks at the top of the smaller spaceships. Nonetheless, it can be escorted by true spaceships to form a flotilla.
01:25:36 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Spaceship_flotilla
01:26:23 <alise> "Everything else", what a great category
01:28:30 <Glasgeo> You never heard of OWSS before?
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01:29:50 <alise> "In June, 2010 Dave Greene constructed the first true knightship in Life, which is based on Gemini and travels at a velocity of (4096,8192)/c35567490."
01:29:58 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=406&start=25a#p2578
01:31:15 <zzo38> Now try to play these computer game "CGA Collection"!! (It is not quite finish yet, sorry) http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll.zip
01:31:34 <Glasgeo> I thought Gemini was a true knightship?
01:31:43 <Glasgeo> That had the replicator bits disabled for some reason
01:32:30 <alise> "and he has studied the Long Life rule." ;; what's this?
01:32:40 <alise> it's not a knightship, knigtship is
01:32:48 <alise> A knightship is a spaceship of type (2m,m)/n (that is, a spaceship that moves two cells horizontally for every one cell it moves vertically). Knightships must be asymmetric and their period must be at least 6, which makes searching for them using programs like lifesrc very difficult. An "almost knightship" was found on March 23, 2004, which would be a period 6 knightship if it weren't for three cells that are incorrect in its sixth generation.[1]
01:32:49 <alise> Alternatively, 'knightship' may refer to any spaceship that travels in an oblique direction (not diagonally or orthogonally). The first oblique spaceship to be discovered, Gemini, was found in May, 2010 with a velocity of (5120,1024)c/33699586. In June, 2010 Dave Greene constructed the first true knightship in Life, which is based on Gemini and travels at a velocity of (4096,8192)/c35567490.[2]
01:33:01 <alise> replicator bits disabled? what?
01:33:27 <Glasgeo> alise, I thought gemini was .. for some reason, not itself a replicator, but could be turned into one
01:33:33 <Glasgeo> It occurs to me that I may be mixed up
01:33:49 <alise> that's just a computer + constructor without an appropriate replicating program
01:34:01 <alise> gemini is a self-removing oblique replicator spaceship
01:34:04 <alise> that has been modified into a knightship
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01:40:49 <zzo38> In addition, I have been assigned to work on a PXE Linux module. How do I send a UDP packet with that?
01:52:10 <Glasgeo> I can now bruteforce a list of all usernames at my school [and everyone has a username]
01:57:16 <Glasgeo> Based on last name and first and middle initial
01:57:39 <Glasgeo> I'm still looking for an actual list
01:57:46 <Glasgeo> I'm not going to start bruteforcing stuff
02:03:45 <oerjan> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/H%C3%AB%C3%A4v%C3%BF_M%C3%ABt%C3%A4l_%C3%9Cml%C3%A4%C3%BCt_D%C3%A4%C3%BF, argh.
02:04:52 <Glasgeo> From usernames, I can now go to full names
02:11:46 <Gregor> You'll NEVER guess MY full name from my username.
02:17:11 <Gregor> Side ... channel attacks?
02:17:15 <pikhq> Gareth, Rex Oregon?
02:17:40 <pikhq> Gareth, Rex Gorbinald
02:17:49 <pikhq> That one actually makes sense.
02:17:59 <pikhq> Gregor: King of Oregon?
02:19:08 <oerjan> lousy latin grammar. itym Oregonis.
02:19:27 <oerjan> Garethus, Rex Oregonis.
02:21:59 <pikhq> oerjan: Latin Sine Flexione, you fool. :P
02:22:57 <pikhq> Okay, in that case your pedantry is more than valid.
03:10:11 <zzo38> I wrote a Underload interpreter in TeX
03:11:02 <zzo38> : is \begingroup and ! is \endgroup
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05:25:47 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/aXWH
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06:36:24 <zzo38> I have just corrected a serious bug in the Underload interpreter. Fixed version: http://sprunge.us/jLSD
06:39:35 <zzo38> When it asks for the filename, type the filename of Underload program (extension .ul is assumed). Program output is sent to file called underload.out
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12:16:58 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGkkyKZVzug
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13:34:57 <alise> hi Quadlex, you new?
13:46:13 <Quadrescence> Just to make tab completing a pain, hi everyone
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13:53:32 <Gracenotes> I make tab-completing a pain too. we're not alone :.
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15:10:11 * alise decides to design a simple RISC.
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15:11:26 <alise> I'm tired of powers of two. Why not a 24-bit processor?!?!!
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15:15:20 <alise> i wonder how practical 24-bit is in hw if you did some fun stuff
15:15:23 <alise> nooga: you're the hw expert, ansewr
15:18:00 <alise> nooga: that's totally not answering
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15:31:00 <alise> Vorpal: your RoadRunner bullshit is over
15:31:02 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_(computer)
15:31:05 <alise> Meet the new king.
15:31:14 <alise> Cray is back, bitches.
15:31:22 <alise> And it looks awesome: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/JaguarXT5.jpg
15:31:50 <alise> nooga: LESS COOKING MORE ANSWERING
15:33:40 <nooga> i think that 24b would act pretty simmilar to any other architecture
15:35:39 <alise> nooga: but RAM is based on powers of two, right?
15:35:55 <alise> hmm, there's nothing actually inherent in a power of two bitsize is there?
15:38:05 <alise> nooga: although a 24-bit computer could only address 16 megs of ram :P
15:38:33 <alise> nooga: unless you used two words per address, then it'd be 256 terabytes, which is a nice number
15:40:31 <alise> nooga: comment, HW slave
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15:45:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i said stuff for you in the logs
15:45:36 <alise> 17:20:25 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Heat
15:45:36 <alise> 17:20:32 <alise> everything is at absolute zero in a conservative CA :)
15:45:36 <alise> 17:20:36 <alise> wait, no
15:45:36 <alise> 17:20:38 <alise> there is still heat
15:45:36 <alise> 17:20:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover logreading: ^ work that into the "real-physics" CA :P
15:45:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Work as in "work heat preservation in".
15:45:51 <alise> Some sort of heat-energy equivalence. So on.
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15:55:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Making a conservative CA reversible would presumably entail constraining the rules such that the number of cells that change can be no more than the number of existing ones...
15:56:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: WHY DO WORDS FAIL YOU
15:56:26 <alise> WE NEED REALISTIC CA PHYSICS
15:56:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Otherwise you could have a perpetual motion machine.
15:57:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Perpetual motion is possible in this universe, anyway.
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15:58:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I DON'T WNAT TO BE PSIBLE
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16:00:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No! The gliders can eat food.
16:01:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Pick a number of bits.
16:02:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Fine.
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16:03:04 <alise> THIS UNIVERSE IS *NOT* BASED ON A CA
16:03:06 <alise> THAT IS WHY IT IS INFERIOR
16:03:08 <alise> WE MUST BUILD ONE THAT IS
16:03:10 <alise> AND TRANSFER INTO IT
16:03:14 <alise> THEN SHED OFF OUR PHYSICAL BODIES
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16:03:19 <alise> ALL OF THEM; THE REVOLUTION SHALL BE AUTOMATIC
16:03:23 <alise> NO CONSENT WILL BE NECESSARY
16:03:39 <alise> EVERYONE'S BODIES WILL BE UNNECESSARY THEY SHALL BE A 100X100 PATTERN OF CELLS IN THE NEW UNIVERSAL ORDER
16:04:26 <alise> "While many people call the GNU system GNU/Hurd this is not strictly true. The kernel is GNU Mach not the Hurd. The Hurd is a series of servers which run on top of the microkernel, GNU Mach. Both the Hurd and GNU Mach are part of the GNU project while the Linux kernel is an independent project."
16:04:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Then why bother with replicating real physics to a boring degree?
16:05:57 <alise> Length: 4525166592 (4.2G) [application/x-iso9660-image]
16:05:57 <alise> Saving to: `debian-L1-hurd-i386-DVD1.iso'
16:05:57 <alise> 0% [ ] 39,734,084 840K/s eta 88m 29s
16:06:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: More seriously -- I don't believe in that heat idea -- that's why you just shed it (in a conservative automaton).
16:06:15 <alise> Spit out gliders or whatever.
16:06:20 <alise> Or still life, or oscillators.
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16:06:58 <alise> Besides, f(x,y) = (x+y,x-y) is a reversible implementation of both addition and subtraction without having to use a bit bucket.
16:07:10 <alise> (The bit that requires a bit bucket is throwing away one of them and only using the other.)
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16:07:31 <alise> *(x+y, x-y), that is.
16:09:41 <alise> Then you throw it into the bit bucket. Or just let it take up that memory and ignore it.
16:09:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Although making it nonreversible makes the bit bucket a rather cooler idea.
16:09:53 <alise> I see you are not familiar with reversible computing.
16:10:05 <alise> Also, the bit bucket is just terminology for pooping.
16:10:11 <alise> In modern CPUs, the bit bucket is heat.
16:10:18 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> But if you don't want x-y?
16:10:20 <alise> seemed to imply not.
16:10:43 <alise> In a reversible automaton, the bit bucket would just be throwing out junk like gliders, still lifes or oscillators.
16:10:46 <alise> To get rid of the cells.
16:10:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Synthesis is also possible this way, but it's very wasteful.
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16:11:08 <alise> Why am I dedicating 4.2 gigs on my disk to HURD? Who knows?
16:11:19 <alise> *the Hurd. Because it's a lowercase acronym!
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16:12:03 <alise> Arch Hurd is for wimps. Debian is where it at
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16:13:01 <fizzie> Archhurd, something like an archbishop but for a hird of hurds.
16:13:33 <alise> eHird, an online Hurd instance.
16:13:53 <fizzie> Your hurdistic tendencies must be because of the name.
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16:17:10 <Sgeo> My professor essentially told me to stop asking hypothetical questions, I might be confusing the other students
16:17:32 <alise> 13% [====> ] 614,377,898 834K/s eta 78m 26s
16:17:36 <Sgeo> So I'll ask in here: Can I have a variable that evaluates to two unrelated things in string and number contexts, the way $! does?
16:18:03 <alise> Unfortunately, nobody here answers hypothetical questions.
16:18:06 <alise> Say Phantom_Hoover, what if a duck died?
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16:18:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh no!
16:19:00 <alise> THAT MAKES ME THE SADDEST.
16:24:47 <Phantom_Hoover> How does eating work in a reversible, conservative CA?
16:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't just shoot a glider at a block and get two gliders coming back.
16:25:52 <alise> Imagine a "spaceship" with a fuse inside that is always ticking. It has a little tendril thing that, upon collision with a properly-shaped niblet of food, shoves it down to the end of the fuse.
16:26:01 <alise> If the fuse were ever to run out, it would implode.
16:27:00 <alise> IF THE FUSE WERE EVER TO RUN OUT, IT WOULD IMPLODE.
16:27:17 <alise> IF THE FUSE WERE EVER TO RUN OUT, IT WOULD IMPLODE.
16:30:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a receipt to the universe saying "I ate that block"?
16:34:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It "eats" it by using some sort of transport mechanism to push it along a wire, and pop it on the end of the fuse.
16:34:18 <alise> That is, it directly and literally uses the food. It burns the food to move.
16:34:36 <alise> Of course, there could be some sort of digestive system where it turns the inert food into something more useful.
16:34:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The burning, of course, gets released.
16:34:51 <alise> But of course moving a cell and putting at the end of some other cells is reversible...
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16:35:13 <alise> The burning is just some reaction that turns the food into a small oscillator or something that escapes the glider, after using some of its energy to help move the big, food-ship.
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16:42:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because physics is.
16:42:17 <alise> And reversibility is COOL.
16:42:23 <alise> Watch the unrise of civilisation!
16:42:36 <alise> "Hmm, I wonder if there's a nicer predecessor of this... ...yep."
16:42:40 <nooga> does anybody know if mono execs run under windows?
16:43:48 <alise> 43% [===============> ] 1,957,187,962 834K/s eta 50m 42s
16:43:56 <alise> if they install mono :P
16:44:03 <alise> i guess you can probably bundle the framework with it?
16:45:57 <alise> nooga: 36 or 54 bits, which is cooler
16:46:39 <alise> 36 can address 64 gigabytes, 54 can address 16 petabytes :P
16:50:09 <Vorpal> <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_(computer) <alise> Meet the new king. <-- I have known about that for weeks
16:50:29 <Vorpal> I'm* not attached to roadrunner in specific
16:50:30 <alise> THEY BUILD FAST THINGS
16:50:36 <Vorpal> just to <whatever is the fastest one currently>
16:50:51 <Vorpal> alise, so you completely fail at trolling
16:51:25 <alise> IBM POSERS DON'T MOTHAFUCKIN' KNOW HOW A FAST BEASTLY COMPUTAH BE LOOKIN. THEY JUST SHOVE THEIR COMPUTERS TOGETHER N CALL IT WINNING. NO MOTHERFUCKER! CRAY! CRAY INC! FUCKING CRAY INC! THEY BUILD FAST THINGS! THEY BUILD FAST THINGS WITH A FREAKIN "JAGUAR" AND A FREAKIN JAGUAR ON THE FRONT BECAUSE THEY ARE MOTHERFUCKING CRAY
16:51:37 <alise> CRAY INC COULD TAKE OVER IBM TOMORROW... BUT WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO
16:51:44 <alise> CRAY INC MOTHERFUCKER! CRAY! CRAY!
16:52:03 <alise> i wanna try the Cray Linux Environment
16:52:26 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebulae_%28computer%29 God that name annoys me
16:52:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: IT'S MULTIPLE NEBULAE
16:53:11 <alise> theoretical peak performance, n. a bullshit figure we extrapolated from a reality in which the speed of light is 20x what it is in our universe.
16:53:32 <alise> [[UNICOS/lc: not derived from UNICOS, but based on SuSE Linux. Used on the XT3, XT4 and XT5. UNICOS/lc 1.x comprises a combination of the Catamount microkernel (based on Cougar, used on the ASCI Red system) running on the compute elements, and SuSE Linux running on the service elements. In UNICOS/lc 2.0, Catamount is replaced by a customized Linux kernel, called Compute Node Linux (CNL). [1] From release 2.1 onwards, UNICOS/lc is now called Cray Linux Enviro
16:53:43 <alise> CRAY: RUNNING LINUX ON TOP OF A MICROKERNEL
16:54:09 <alise> fucking crays, how do they work
16:55:13 <alise> 56% [===================> ] 2,538,296,296 762K/s eta 39m 12s
16:55:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: FUCKING CRAY MOTHERFUCKER
16:55:33 <Vorpal> <alise> theoretical peak performance, n. a bullshit figure we extrapolated from a reality in which the speed of light is 20x what it is in our universe. <-- [citation needed]
16:55:36 <alise> IF YOU ADD A Z TO CRAY YOU GET CRAZY
16:55:45 <alise> CRAY IS MOTHERFUCKIN CRAZY AND NO APOLOGIES
16:55:50 <alise> DOING SHIT NOT EVEN POSSIBLE
16:55:55 <alise> VORPAL: HUMOUR DETECTION ENGINE NEEDED YO
16:56:01 <alise> CRAY INC GETS ALL THE FUCKIN HUMOUR
16:56:19 <alise> SEYMOUR CRAY ONCE PUNCHED CHUCK NORRIS. HE GOT CANCER (CHUCK NORRIS)
16:56:27 <Vorpal> alise, it is easier if it is actually funny
16:56:40 <alise> Vorpal: it was a slight against the Nebulae figure
16:56:47 <alise> (>2 petaflops theoretical peak performance)
16:56:52 <alise> (Jaguar gets 1 petaflops sustained in practice)
16:57:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Accent fail.
16:57:27 <alise> It's Erdős, goddammit! Erdős!
16:57:52 <alise> I would put it in capitals but I can't type that ő. :P
16:57:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: COPY AND PASTE MAN
16:57:57 <alise> CRAY WOULD COPY AND PASTE
16:59:51 <alise> CRAY USES FIBER-OPTIC CABLES RECTALLY
17:00:11 <alise> HE TICKLES IN THE INDIVIDUAL BITS OF LIGHT
17:04:24 <alise> 66% [=======================> ] 3,003,294,256 840K/s eta 30m 3s
17:04:35 <alise> WITH A CRAY COMPUTER ON AN IDENTICAL NETWORK THIS WOULD HAVE DOWNLOADED IN THREE MINUTES
17:04:45 <alise> TWO IF YOU DISABLE ALL THE CPUS WHICH WORKS BECAUSE OF CRAY GODDAMN
17:06:32 <Vorpal> alise, watched that minecraft video you mentioned yesterday
17:06:50 <alise> yeah i wish we saw it actually computing though -- or maybe we did, and it was just not really seen :P
17:07:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about the ~ key followed by o ? That works here... but then ~ is a dead key.
17:07:31 <Vorpal> so it does nothing with compose
17:08:07 <alise> If anything, it'd be ``o.
17:08:09 <Vorpal> same at this font size
17:08:10 <alise> Anyway, dead keys suck shit.
17:08:40 <Vorpal> alise, not when you write a language where they are useful
17:08:57 <Vorpal> alise, like é and è. Happens in Swedish every now and then.
17:09:01 <alise> Also known as LANGUAGES OF FAIL.
17:09:04 <alise> Vorpal: we get that too.
17:09:16 <Vorpal> alise, a bit tricky to write on your keyboard though
17:09:42 <alise> Not difficult. Although I forget which.
17:09:53 <alise> (which key after altgr; but that's only because I use it rarely.)
17:09:58 <Vorpal> alise, so altgr-; is a dead key
17:10:33 <alise> It's not a dead key if there's a modifier involved.
17:11:11 <Vorpal> alise, define dead key then. I thought it meant "does nothing until you press another key"
17:11:56 <alise> dead key is a single key on the keyboard that, when pressed alone, does nothing until you press another key, inserting a combined accent version or, when combined with e.g. space, inserts the character itself.
17:12:04 <Vorpal> alise, because by your logic some "dead keys" on Swedish keyboards are not. Because they have different stuff on shifted and non-shifted (but both are dead)
17:12:05 <alise> they are very annoying. especially when one's on '
17:12:09 <alise> (this is the source of "don`t syndrome")
17:12:23 <Vorpal> alise, um ' is not a dead key here
17:12:39 <alise> please quote the line where i stated it is
17:12:54 <Vorpal> alise, well you implied that there are keyboard layouts on which it is the case
17:13:04 <Vorpal> otherwise such a syndrome wouldn't exist
17:13:27 <alise> please quote the line where i stated it is on yours
17:13:52 <Vorpal> alise, also I didn't say you implied it was on Swedish layout
17:13:56 <Vorpal> I was just noting that it wasn't
17:14:15 <Vorpal> alise, which keyboard layouts have ' as dead then...
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17:29:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Do I dare ask what that is?
17:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> It's just a variant of Langton's Loop capable of genetic transfer between loops.
17:32:12 <alise> http://homepages.feis.herts.ac.uk/~on5ag/sexyloop.html
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17:46:50 <Vorpal> alise, hm is the article only on IEEE exlore?
17:47:28 <alise> seems so. there's also http://homepages.feis.herts.ac.uk/~on5ag/mypapers/OROS_2009_IEEE_ALIFE_b.pdf
17:47:38 <alise> https://uhra.herts.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/2299/1735/1/901918.pdf
17:47:41 <alise> the original paper
17:47:50 <Vorpal> damn "Content is outside your subscription"
17:47:56 <Vorpal> I can't get it through university proxy
17:48:01 <alise> https://uhra.herts.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/2299/1735/1/901918.pdf
17:48:42 <alise> (Reviewing the state-of-the-art in modern abstract fields of mathematics without providing an instrument of capitalism requires breaking international law. Discuss.)
17:48:59 <Vorpal> I was just somehow fucking up the url
17:49:25 * Vorpal reads the ieee publication
17:49:38 <zzo38> alise: I do not quite understand what you mean by that
17:49:43 <alise> Vorpal: I *linked to the IEEE publication*.
17:49:47 <Vorpal> (no I won't share, all pdfs are watermarked with who and when downloaded it)
17:50:02 <alise> zzo38: The law is copyright law, the instrument of capitalism is the almighty dollar, and the state-of-the-art is recorded in papers.
17:50:34 <alise> The only exception is, of course, if you live in a country that (a) has free university and (b) has free universities whose subscription extends to those papers.
17:50:52 <Vorpal> alise, a and b applies here?
17:51:01 <alise> Vorpal: Yes; you're lucky.
17:51:19 <alise> Vorpal: Although your *state* is now feeding the IEEE, which is rather questionable from the IEEE-isn't-very-not-evil point of view.
17:51:25 <zzo38> alise: Now I understand.
17:51:39 <Vorpal> alise, of course. I realise that is somewhat tricky
17:51:48 <zzo38> But it means they need to make mathematics papers that are public domain and freely available
17:51:49 <Vorpal> alise, at least it isn't pay-per-downloaded-paper or such afaik
17:51:57 <Vorpal> alise, as in, my action won't require them to pay more
17:52:03 <Vorpal> I think they have yearly subscription
17:52:09 <alise> Vorpal: Even that has issues, effectively imposing a minimum age limit on reading research papers; getting into university at an early age (a) sucks and (b) is extraordinarily difficult.
17:52:27 <zzo38> You shouldn't need the IEEE to do these things!
17:52:27 <alise> Open access is incredibly important.
17:52:30 <alise> It's just a shame it's not universal.
17:52:39 <Vorpal> alise, and when I'm done at university it will be harder again
17:52:58 <alise> Vorpal: Unless you become a prof. Which has the issue of being... difficult.
17:53:09 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, for math isn't ACM more prestigious than IEEE?
17:53:10 <alise> Although you do get tenure :P
17:53:14 <Vorpal> though I can access ACM too
17:53:17 <alise> Vorpal: Dude, ACM isn't mathematics.
17:53:26 <alise> You mean the AMS, presumably.
17:53:35 <Vorpal> alise, what does the M in ACM stand for?
17:53:41 <alise> Computing Machinery
17:53:54 <Vorpal> alise, what exactly does tenure mean btw?
17:53:57 <alise> (IEEE is about *electronic engineering* of all things; for some perverted reason computing counts as related to electricity.)
17:54:05 <alise> Vorpal: Tenure commonly refers to life tenure in a job and specifically to a senior academic's contractual right not to have his or her position terminated without just cause.
17:54:11 <alise> tl;dr "You're a prof. You can't get fired."
17:54:28 <Vorpal> alise, hm I don't know if that is true in Sweden
17:54:30 <alise> You can publish whatever crap you want as long as you don't, like, rape someone.
17:54:32 <Vorpal> I never heard of such stuff here
17:54:42 <alise> It is a bit of a ridiculous system.
17:54:50 <Vorpal> alise, and is not in use here afaik
17:55:09 <alise> So your processors actually do things? WEIRD :P
17:55:28 <alise> [[Professor - Requires a PhD degree, a strong publication record, proven teaching skills, and supervision as main supervisor of PhD students which have successfully obtained their PhD. Similar to a tenured, senior, full professor in the USA.]]
17:55:32 <alise> maybe just de facto tenure, then
17:56:59 <Vorpal> alise, and from observation I believe that the main drive in a professor is avoiding students and somehow get away with just doing research
17:57:17 <alise> Sounds pretty good to me :P
17:57:24 <alise> http://www.barnorama.com/wp-content/gallery/5demotivator/31.jpg
17:57:29 <alise> Vorpal: SWEDEN WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN FOR THIS.
17:57:30 <Vorpal> alise, from what I understand it is rather hard to get away with
17:57:43 <alise> Jätte mumsig MY ASS.
17:57:46 <Vorpal> alise, huh, I never seen that
17:58:01 <Vorpal> alise, that was obscene
17:58:06 <Vorpal> (the combination I meant)
17:58:12 <Vorpal> I refuse to translate it.
17:58:43 <alise> Gahaha (Translated myself)
17:58:47 <Vorpal> alise, notice the blue label, translates to "American taste"
17:59:02 <Vorpal> alise, well it isn't obscene on it's own. Just when combined with "my ass" as you did.
17:59:14 <alise> American taste my ass.
17:59:19 <Vorpal> (though not exactly gramatically correct)
18:00:35 <alise> They may actually have managed to make bacon awful. A previously unheard of feat.
18:00:56 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think it was a Swedish invention
18:01:02 <Vorpal> just an example of the idea
18:01:08 <alise> IT'S YOUR FAULT ALL YOUR FAULT
18:01:16 <Vorpal> alise, also how can you know what it tastes like without trying it?
18:01:51 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, americans invented squeezeable cheese. That is even worse.
18:01:51 <alise> Dude, it's a *squeeze bottle* with cheapl-=
18:01:56 <alise> Dude, it's a *squeeze bottle* with cheap-looking packaging,
18:02:03 <alise> advertising *an actual replacement for bacon* coming out of the little hole.
18:02:07 <alise> Not even "bacon flavouring".
18:02:12 <alise> Squeeze out bacon!
18:02:16 <alise> There is no question that it is terrible.
18:03:15 <Vorpal> alise, this is worse. By far: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easy_Cheese
18:03:40 <alise> No, I'm pretty sure squeezed bacon is going to taste worse than squeezed cheese.
18:04:00 <alise> At least the texture of squeezed cheese will be *SOMETHING* like cheese.
18:04:08 <Vorpal> alise, depends on what cheese
18:04:16 <Vorpal> alise, cheddar? No way
18:04:21 <alise> "Although sometimes called "aerosol cheese", its container is not actually an aerosol spray can, because the cheese does not combine with the propellant (nitrogen) to turn into a fine mist upon being sprayed." ;; THIS WOULD BE HILARIOUS
18:04:29 <Vorpal> some soft cheeses will be a bit similar
18:04:49 <alise> Vorpal: Cheddar is quite a soft solid. It's not rock-hard, crispy, or anything.
18:04:55 <alise> Bacon is always at least slightly CRISPY.
18:06:02 <alise> 2010-09-29 17:34:22 (821 KB/s) - `debian-L1-hurd-i386-DVD1.iso' saved [4525166592/4525166592]
18:06:11 <alise> Length: 4525166592 (4.2G) [application/x-iso9660-image]
18:06:25 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: Cheddar is quite a soft solid. It's not rock-hard, crispy, or anything. <-- that varies between types of cheeses
18:06:30 <Vorpal> there are some very hard ones
18:06:40 <Vorpal> harder than hard cheddar even (which is already quite a hard one)
18:06:54 <Vorpal> now, bbl, food (sadly without squeezed bacon)
18:07:32 <alise> Vorpal: I'M ABOUT TO INSTALL DEBIAN GNU/HURD IN A VM
18:10:03 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/e8UPJ.png
18:11:03 <alise> "The Rescue disk CANNOT be used for system recovery."
18:11:21 <alise> Haha, it actually uses Linux to unpack baseGNU.tgz onto the partition.
18:12:00 <alise> Wow, it starts with an image of Tux with a beercan.
18:14:17 <alise> your definition of usable always seems to be linux
18:14:26 <alise> Gregor used it for a while
18:16:03 <alise> "Linux or OS X or maybe a BSD", then.
18:20:55 <zzo38> Writing programs in TeX can easily confuse the syntax highlighter
18:21:41 <zzo38> Forth codes can do that, too.
18:22:24 <nooga> but not exactly usable
18:24:00 <zzo38> Please review this program: http://sprunge.us/jLSD
18:24:54 <zzo38> alise: Yes to what question?
18:25:03 <alise> Yes to the program.
18:25:35 <zzo38> Do you think it is workable?
18:25:55 <zzo38> I have tried a few Underload programs and it does works.
18:26:37 <zzo38> Although sometimes there is error due to capacity of TeX
18:27:21 <zzo38> Also, each "S" command sends output to a separate line in the output file, instead of all on one line, how Underload is meant to.
18:28:49 <zzo38> Other than that it works perfectly OK as far as I can tell.
18:29:50 <alise> I'd recommend rendering the result rather than using an output file, for extra coolness.
18:30:00 <zzo38> Now can you learn?
18:30:24 <zzo38> alise: Yes, however, some programs run infinite loops, so that is why it won't work to render the result.
18:33:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:35:11 <zzo38> I have even heard of a BASIC interpreter written in TeX
18:36:16 <zzo38> What's that about Pushkin?
18:37:52 <zzo38> alise: It was something in Godel, Escher, Bach. Someone said that line, after mishearing someone reading the book that the story they are in said something
18:38:27 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: I'M ABOUT TO INSTALL DEBIAN GNU/HURD IN A VM <-- why not natively?
18:39:21 <zzo38> I would also like some review of this game: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll.zip
18:39:22 <nooga> zzo38: call the interpreter jLSD
18:39:30 <alise> You do realise Hurd doesn't even support USB? :P
18:39:45 <alise> I think my DVD is corrupt or something. I'm gonna try the mini install CD.
18:39:46 <nooga> zzo38: how do i run this game under linux?
18:39:48 <alise> All those 4 gigs for nuthin'.
18:39:56 <alise> nooga: you can't, linux isn't usable
18:40:08 <Vorpal> alise, torrent it? That tends to have better error checking. Though I doubt anyone would see a hurd dvd
18:40:23 <alise> Vorpal: It's actually based on Debian woody, despite coming out late last year.
18:40:30 <alise> Woody is from *2002*.
18:40:42 <alise> Now consider how obsolete Debian stable releases become in their lifetime.
18:40:43 <zzo38> nooga: Probably best using a DOS emulator. Although if you want, you can try to recompile it using FreeBASIC (which would require modifying the programs).
18:40:49 <alise> The release after, sarge, came in 2005.
18:41:00 <alise> By that time, woody would have been hopelessly, comically outdated, as old-release-schedule Debian releases did.
18:41:05 <alise> Now consider it in *late 2009*.
18:41:20 <Vorpal> alise, still beats mastodon
18:41:36 <alise> Vorpal: Except mastodon is designed to be retro and is actually maintained -- or, well, was when anyone used it.
18:42:04 <zzo38> Are Debian going to use names from Toy Story 3 in the future?
18:42:49 <alise> Not many new "characters" in 3 had names...
18:43:02 <Vorpal> alise, upgrading X while running X. How insane is that?
18:43:11 <Vorpal> so far I noticed no issues with that
18:43:17 <Vorpal> and I haven't restarted X yet
18:43:40 <nooga> zzo38: i dont know how to play some of these
18:44:00 <zzo38> nooga: What questions do you have specific?
18:44:06 <zzo38> I can try to answer you
18:44:40 <alise> Toy Story 3 is awesome btw.
18:44:56 <Vorpal> <zzo38> nooga: Probably best using a DOS emulator. Although if you want, you can try to recompile it using FreeBASIC (which would require modifying the programs). <-- which programs?
18:45:35 <zzo38> Vorpal: They would require modifying the .BAS programs to make them work properly under FreeBASIC. Although a DOS emulator (or another computer with DOS) will work, too.
18:46:14 <Vorpal> zzo38, I asked "which programs"
18:46:17 <nooga> now i found the doc
18:46:22 <zzo38> nooga: I can explain STROKER:
18:46:33 <Vorpal> zzo38, as in, what do the .BAS programs do
18:46:34 <zzo38> (The doc doesn't explain everything yet, unfortunately. It is not finish)
18:47:06 <zzo38> STROKER game you push space bar, arrow keys (you can step on each space only once), and then if you make that no rows contain both green and red blocks, then you win.
18:47:14 <zzo38> Vorpal: The .BAS programs do game program.
18:47:40 <alise> Vorpal: Game programs.
18:47:45 <zzo38> (Except CGACOLL.BAS, which just calculates the size of the files)
18:48:03 <Vorpal> alise, like... RPG? Card games? Racing games? text adventure?
18:48:05 <zzo38> Vorpal: There are many kinds of games.
18:48:52 <Vorpal> alise, why not implement USB support in Hurd
18:49:13 <alise> because they're too busy wanking over their amazing design and... doing... something that i'm not sure exactly what it is
18:49:21 <alise> besides, doesn't your bios provide PS/2 compatibility?!
18:49:24 <alise> just bring your ISA video card!
18:49:31 <Vorpal> alise, aha, it is like tenured profs
18:49:35 <Vorpal> they don't do anything
18:49:38 <alise> COREBOOT(not-TM) Optimised!
18:49:39 <zzo38> Vorpal: The program ELEMENTA is a implementation of a card game.
18:49:47 <alise> "not-TM" linking to a rant on why trademarks are evil, naturally!
18:49:52 <Vorpal> alise, it actually said that?
18:50:07 <alise> the hurd guys tend to be the crazies more than the zealots :P
18:50:09 <Vorpal> zzo38, any RPGs or such?
18:51:39 <zzo38> Maybe the STARWARS game counts, sort of...
18:52:02 <Vorpal> zzo38, I don't have DOS handy btw
18:52:12 <Vorpal> and I don't plan to code any basic
18:52:31 <zzo38> The STARWARS program is a two player game, it is the only two players game in the package
18:52:42 <alise> Vorpal: they work with DOSBox, usually
18:52:45 <alise> zzo38's basic games
18:52:54 <alise> Hurd uses its own extended version of ext2. :)
18:53:02 <nooga> zzo38: sovminga is quite amusing
18:53:11 <Vorpal> oh, two player, not really possible to try it atm then
18:53:14 <nooga> extended version of extended
18:53:16 <zzo38> (I got the rules from a paper that described it as a sort of RPG, but it isn't really a true RPG)
18:53:21 <Vorpal> alise, well, installing dosbox... too much work
18:53:31 <alise> sudo aptitude install dosbox<ENTER>
18:53:53 <zzo38> nooga: In case you want to know, SOVMINGA is actually short for "Soviet Mind Game"
18:54:06 <nooga> zzo38: looks like normal tetris
18:54:21 <alise> It's funny because Tetris comes from Soviet Russia.
18:54:34 <zzo38> nooga: It is, although there are some options you can change which make it a bit different from normal Tetris.
18:54:39 <Vorpal> alise, and yeah, too much work.
18:54:52 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, because six lines is work.
18:54:57 <alise> That's six lines including the actual starting of the game.
18:55:06 <alise> And they can be typed without even touching the mouse.
18:57:32 <zzo38> The program GIVEAWAY is actually a solitaire chess variant
18:57:55 <zzo38> But COLORSPI is one which I would like you to try
18:58:30 <zzo38> Vorpal: Because it is DOS filenames
18:58:33 <nooga> i just looked at the webpage of mastodon
18:58:42 <nooga> no links, no download, nothing
18:58:47 <Vorpal> zzo38, they are case insensitive afaik. No need to write them upper case
18:58:54 <Vorpal> lower case or mixed case would work just as well
18:58:58 <alise> Vorpal: DIR lists them in uppercase.
18:59:14 <zzo38> Vorpal: I know but I prefer to type them in uppercase
18:59:16 <Vorpal> alise, I'm aware of that, I don't think that is a justification
18:59:32 <alise> Vorpal: For the same reason, Lisp and Scheme functions are rendered in upper-case.
18:59:36 <alise> For instance, CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION.
19:00:06 <zzo38> All of these game programs are public domain, do as you like with it.
19:00:13 <Vorpal> alise, not in most docs I have seen iirc. But yes quite commonly in error messages and such
19:00:47 <alise> Vorpal: When it is available, monospaced type is preferred.
19:00:54 <alise> In all other situations, upper-case should be and is used.
19:01:04 <Vorpal> alise, R3RS seem to use lower case
19:01:22 <alise> Vorpal: it uses monospaced type.
19:01:23 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Antarctica
19:02:03 <Vorpal> why on earth is that not just integrated into the main article on Antarctica?
19:02:28 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religion_in_Antarctica
19:02:42 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Church_buildings_in_Antarctica
19:03:21 <alise> Wow, Alcoholics Anonymous were there.
19:03:53 <Vorpal> alise, I can only presume they somehow generated these for all continents or such
19:04:04 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Church_buildings_in_Antarctica
19:04:19 <Vorpal> alise, well and then someone used that when it existed
19:05:11 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Las_Estrellas Civilian settlement in Antarctica.
19:06:02 <Vorpal> alise, strange they had so many fires down there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_of_the_Snows both the original and the temp replacement burned
19:06:12 <alise> They're FIRES OF COLD.
19:06:49 -!- tombom has joined.
19:08:13 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Villa_Las_Estrellas.jpg
19:08:41 <alise> GNU Emacs mostly does work, however there are a few issues.
19:08:41 <alise> dired on a directory hangs. (Use C-g C-g to break the unresponsive operation.)
19:08:41 <alise> http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/open_issues/emacs.html
19:08:48 <Vorpal> alise, yeah, but that must be in the *summer* I think
19:08:54 <Vorpal> alise, it would be a lot worse in the winter
19:08:56 <alise> Vorpal: Of course. Still...
19:09:07 <alise> Apparently there are 15 children there! (at least in summer).
19:09:24 <alise> Also internet on three computers at the school. :P
19:09:28 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. Cool to visit, sure. But not a place to live permanently
19:09:40 <Ilari_antrcomp> Well, when its cold, people tend to light fires... And those can ocassionally spread to unintentional places... :-)
19:09:48 <Vorpal> alise, yeah that seems strange. Surely the govt offices would have internet?
19:10:13 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, you would assume they built for coldness down there
19:10:23 <Vorpal> I mean, with radiators and such
19:10:42 <alise> Vorpal: Clearly not!
19:11:00 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, well yes
19:11:15 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, bad use of a lot of things can cause fires
19:12:47 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, LN2? LHe?
19:13:47 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, shouldn't that be N3?
19:14:29 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, and hrrm does any of those three substances conduct electricity?
19:14:55 <Vorpal> ah hm, then indeed I can't think of a way to start a fire using those
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19:15:51 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, indirectly: Lets say you have some sort of moving device, which if it stops operating could result in a fire hazard, Like, say, a cooling fan motor.
19:16:00 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, now LHe on it
19:16:06 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, watch the grease freeze
19:16:12 <Vorpal> and thus the thing it cooled overhead
19:16:29 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, there, fire from LHe. Though rather contrived I agree
19:16:39 <Ilari_antrcomp> OTOH, LOx is different stuff. Well, its cold. But the oxidant density wins over that by quite a margin...
19:17:30 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, shouldn't that be LO?
19:17:56 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, anyway, what do you think of my suggestion for starting fire with LHe?
19:18:54 <Ilari_antrcomp> OTOH, if you freeze the motor using that (if its electric), blocking the motion causes it to emit lots of heat, which would warm it back up...
19:20:03 <zzo38> Do you know in QBASIC? Using the SOUND command allows you to time shorter intervals than you can with the TIMER command. It is faster to check the states of the shift keys and control/alt and numlock/capslock/scrolllock than it is to check the states of the other keys.
19:20:10 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, hrrm. Either make it non-electric or provide a continuous flow of LHe so that it cools quicker than it heats up
19:20:15 <Ilari_antrcomp> Here's trick that might work: "Fix" the fuses with nails. Then connect leads to block of superconductor and pour LHe on it...
19:21:44 * Ilari_antrcomp goes to check if any new installments of "things I don't work with" series have popped up...
19:32:33 <Vorpal> Ilari_antrcomp, is there anything that can burn in an atmosphere of helium?
19:35:12 <Slereah> Helium can combine with some elements
19:35:26 <Slereah> But I don't think it would be a burning scenario
19:35:56 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium#Compounds
19:36:22 <oerjan> "Calculations show that two new compounds containing a helium-oxygen bond could be stable."
19:36:46 <oerjan> still a hypothetical, apparently
19:40:36 <zzo38> I have some music files on my computer that say this archive was downloaded from and the URL (HTTP), and not to be redistributed without permission. Well, I have not downloaded it as an archive, I have not downloaded it at that domain name, and I have not downloaded it over HTTP either.
19:40:55 <zzo38> It was downloaded over the gopher protocol (I forget the domain name)
19:42:30 <Vorpal> <Ilari_antrcomp> AFAIK, He has no stable compounds. <-- stable under what conditions?
19:42:55 <zzo38> Helium is a noble gas?
19:43:41 <oerjan> yes, but some noble gases _do_ have stable compounds, if that section is to be believed
19:43:48 <Vorpal> zzo38, yes and? Argon and iirc Xenon has some compounds
19:43:55 <oerjan> (helium and neon have no known ones)
19:44:24 <zzo38> Vorpal: I don't know, I just mentioned that it is a noble gas, in case that matters at all
19:45:10 <Vorpal> well yes it is rather inert, but not completely it seems
19:47:13 <zzo38> I'm not a chemist either, that is why I don't know, and why I ask
19:47:40 <Vorpal> well I can't help you, I have no clue why, I just know it is the case
19:48:29 <alise> I can help everyone!
19:57:59 -!- augur has joined.
20:05:09 <Ilari_antrcomp> Ah yes, things like FOOF. Explodes on contact with water ice at about -180 degC...
20:05:51 <oerjan> i guess it is rather inert because noble gases have zero valence electrons, at not quite inert because valence electrons are only a first approximation to how an atom can react...
20:07:43 <alise> also, explodes Pentium processors
20:08:21 * oerjan isn't a chemist either but he _did_ ace his chemistry exam back in '89. standard vague recall disclaimers apply.
20:08:44 <nooga> i was 1 y old then
20:08:50 <alise> <nooga> oerjan isn't 17?!
20:08:52 * oerjan waves his cane at nooga
20:09:00 <Gregor> I was 3, but I also aced my chemistry exam.
20:09:03 <nooga> alise: i predict he could be 30+
20:09:12 <alise> nooga: the wrong end of 30+ :P
20:10:55 <zzo38> I need a machine that if you feed paper in, it will fold them, and after receiving a certain number of pages (configurable), it will place them in a window envelope.
20:11:32 <oerjan> you probably can buy one from xerox or something :D
20:12:59 <Vorpal> <Ilari_antrcomp> Ah yes, things like FOOF. Explodes on contact with water ice at about -180 degC... <-- cool, now tip the mythbusters about this
20:14:08 * oerjan recalls fluorine and oxygen are the two most electronegative elements, so no surprise really
20:14:59 <zzo38> They were doing it by email and webpages and Windows Media, and PDF files even, so I offered to do it entirely using TeX instead, so that is what I am doing.
20:15:25 <zzo38> (O, and I am also using METAFONT to create the name cards)
20:16:33 <zzo38> What should be the position of the address on the page so that it will appear in the window envelope?
20:18:07 <zzo38> If the output tray of the printer is arranged so that it drops the pages directly into the other machine, then you would have to do nothing other than put stamps and put it in the mailbox!
20:23:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:25:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a simple way of interchanging columns in a file?
20:30:40 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:30:49 <oerjan> well basically you have to look awkward.
20:31:23 -!- wareya has joined.
20:31:34 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ (echo 1 2 3; echo 4 5 6) | awk '{ print $2, $1, $3 }'
20:32:17 <Phantom_Hoover> And now it is a matter of working out the Sexyloop rule table symmetries...
20:32:38 <alise> Do you need symmetries if you do a dumb translation?
20:32:38 <nooga> how would you biuld an interpreter that gets program written as quite entangled and forked, looped curve ?
20:42:04 <zzo38> Is there a program for creating road maps with TeX?
20:43:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Along with a couple of substitutions, but those I can do myself.
20:46:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you can do that too
20:46:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: always six fields?
20:47:02 <fizzie> fis@iris:~$ (echo 123456; echo abcdef) | awk -F '' '{print $5","$1","$2","$3","$4","$6;}'
20:47:44 <fizzie> Assuming you actually wanted those commas in.
20:47:47 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ echo abcdef | sed -E 's/(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)/\5\1\2\3\4\6/'
20:47:49 <alise> But yes, that works too.
20:47:59 <alise> Um, with commas in.
20:48:03 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, substituting A for 10 and B for 11 would be nice as well...
20:48:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'M ON IT
20:48:26 <fizzie> The sed expression looks like a six-breasted thing, though.
20:48:52 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ echo AbcdeB | sed -E 's/(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)/\5,\1,\2,\3,\4,\6/; s/A/10/g; s/B/11/g'
20:53:17 <alise> fizzie: How much does Minecraft cost?
20:53:36 <fizzie> alise: You can buy it for 9.95 EUR during this alpha-test, and they'll say it goes up to 20 EUR later.
20:53:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's server-based.
20:54:15 <alise> Damn them for creating a multiplayer game!!1213134853
20:54:35 <fizzie> Also, perl -ne 'chomp; $_ = join(",", split //); s/([AB])/"1".chr(ord($1)-17)/eg; print; print "\n";' is obviously far preferable and cleaner than the simple sed expression.
20:54:36 <alise> fizzie: My brain must be broken; when I saw Google spit out £8.58 my first thought was "wow, that's a lot".
20:56:52 <fizzie> I'm not sure whether the multiplayer servers (at the moment) actually check for account validity, just the servers the launcher uses to download the actual game bits from. But the official multiplayer servers probably will at some point.
20:57:12 <alise> I think Hawking may have a slight problem with cinemas.
20:57:26 <fizzie> There's something like a dozen third-party servers, but I'm not sure if those support the current Alpha client or just the old "Classic" one.
20:57:41 <fizzie> (I've just been playing with myself.)
20:58:03 <alise> The two mini-comics in http://xkcd.com/798/ are amusing.
20:58:14 <alise> The use of phi for both properties is confusing and annoying.
20:58:21 <alise> `addquote <fizzie> (I've just been playing with myself.)
20:58:24 <alise> Nothing is too low-brow for HackEgo.
20:58:38 <HackEgo> 230|<fizzie> (I've just been playing with myself.)
20:59:17 <fizzie> In the end I did buy it, anyway.
20:59:33 <alise> BUT WHERE IS YOUR MONEY NOW
21:00:45 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: the main practical upshot of this manual. the following parts, written in c, or where commands intended to be less than a label, to select every second bit of the format created by the compiler or optimizer thinks that such a stack existed, because it's inside the main control-flow command in other programming languages.
21:00:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic* irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
21:01:05 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
21:01:22 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: no mess and fresh juice anytime!
21:01:45 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i didn't know you could even do that.
21:02:12 <alise> fungot: WHAT ABOUT THE MESS OF FRESH JUICES
21:02:13 <fungot> alise: gentlemen. i never thought i'd see the day. hail ikthor! you have a gamer card with us?
21:02:20 <alise> most of it is just verbatim
21:02:55 <fizzie> It is a bit verbatimy, yes. I think I should've used a lower maximum n-gram order, it was a pretty small data set.
21:03:06 <fizzie> fungot: Can't you, you know, jazz it up a bit?
21:03:07 <fungot> fizzie: my parents are coming over tonight. i don't know if i can be friends with a zombie lover. you will take in scenic vistas, within view of majestic caribou... hey! maybe we could trade off, you could race, then me...
21:04:31 <fizzie> It is sort of multi-channel-capable; but is that really a place that'd appreciate such a noisy bot?
21:05:05 <alise> ##gameoflife so sold out when it changed name >__>
21:05:33 <oerjan> alise: i _vaguely_ recall it was my fault. despite me never being there :D
21:05:43 <alise> PHANTOM_HOOVER IS THE CRIMINAL
21:06:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Any objections to me moving it back? 'cuz the old name is SO more awesome :P
21:07:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Given the only person in it is Ilari, it makes no difference.
21:11:32 <oerjan> so what's game of life in finnish, anyway.
21:12:14 <fizzie> Which is a bit boring. ("peli" is just generically "game".)
21:15:47 -!- cheater99 has changed nick to cheater100.
21:18:55 <alise> "Thanks, Elliot." --Robert Nemiroff, editor of Astronomy Picture of the Day, in response to an email where the only statement of my name was in the From field, spelled correctly.
21:19:00 <alise> WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
21:22:35 <oerjan> wtf http://i.imgur.com/Wqqxv.jpg
21:28:43 <alise> There is a Wikipedia article called "Libertarianism (metaphysics)".
21:30:09 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:33:15 <Gregor> The free market controls MY gravity.
21:34:10 <alise> Gregor: Hi, I'm 1000g. I'm currently taking over 1g.
21:34:36 <Vorpal> I wonder what happens if you mix hydrazine with fluorine? Or if that doesn't do anything interesting, why not mix it with caesium instead
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21:37:29 <zzo38> I had an idea of a context making computer game, with topics you have to use, the topics are the titles of two Wikipedia pages selected at random.
21:37:42 <zzo38> (Using the [[Special:Random]] function)
21:41:41 <oerjan> a computer cannot actually _understand_ the topics...
21:41:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I HOPE YOU'RE READING THIS
21:42:10 <zzo38> No... the judge posts the topics and tells the people to make a game with this, and then the judge tells how closely it matches the topic
21:42:24 <alise> *contest, surely, not context.
21:42:32 <oerjan> zzo38: oh... what alise said
21:42:47 <zzo38> Yes, I do mean "contest"
21:44:20 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lerner and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpang_Pulai_Interchange
21:44:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I HOPE YOU'RE READING MY BEAUTIFUL HATE POETRY
21:44:35 <oerjan> i see some problems there :D
21:44:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: David Lerner is driving on the Simpang Pulai Interchange. But the Malaysian government don't want him there!
21:45:07 <alise> Drive and shoot the enemy cars while avoiding the donkeys.
21:45:13 <oerjan> alise: wait David Lerner looks like a hate poet...
21:46:01 <alise> Pretty sure Phantom_Hoover's client is lagged to hell, but I was referring to this in ##gameoflife: http://pastie.org/1189862.txt?key=vgenivuit5vq7guwwqoxa
21:46:08 <alise> (He is busy pasting Paradise Lost into #b3s23.)
21:46:29 <alise> It is the greatest work of poetry.
21:46:40 <alise> And the even better work of HATE POETRY.
21:47:54 <oerjan> alise: i think the game should involve orangutans too
21:48:25 <nooga> i'm studying something called "Informatyka" which would directly translate to "Informatics"
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21:48:41 <alise> "the literary world
21:48:43 <alise> sucks dead dog dick" -- David Lerner, "Mein Kampf"
21:48:45 <alise> "I want people to hear my poetry and
21:48:49 <alise> I want people to hear my poetry and
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21:48:55 <nooga> should i write "Computer Science" in my english CV?
21:49:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:49:10 <nooga> instead of "Informatics"?
21:49:49 <alise> is the subject computer science?
21:50:04 <alise> Informatics (academic field), a broad academic field encompassing information science, information technology, algorithms, and social science
21:50:04 <alise> Computer science, the study of complex systems, information and computation using applied mathematics, electrical engineering and software engineering techniques.
21:50:04 <alise> Information science, the study of the processing, management, and retrieval of information
21:50:08 <alise> so informatics is a sort of supersubject...
21:50:17 <alise> nooga: what you've primarily been studying is CS, right?
21:50:24 <alise> if so, i'd write Computer Science
21:50:30 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informatics_(academic_field) ;; wut
21:50:48 <nooga> CS is called Informatyka in Polish
21:51:23 <nooga> like Matematyka -> Mathematics
21:51:39 <alise> doing a literal word-by-word translation is silly, so if informatyka means CS, then write Computer Science.
21:51:56 <nooga> but what is Informatics then?
21:52:40 <alise> some supersubject of CS that probably involves very little CS
21:52:46 <alise> about... systems and information
21:52:47 <alise> definitely not CS :P
21:53:15 <alise> nooga: just say computer science.
21:55:53 <nooga> computer science sounds cheesy
21:56:09 <nooga> a science of repairing computers
21:56:14 <alise> nooga: dude, it's the name of the subject.
21:56:24 <alise> nobody knows what the hell informatics means :P
21:56:41 <alise> nooga: "computing science" has gained a little bit of traction but nothing even nearly serious enough for any CV-reader not to think of it as a stupid error
21:56:55 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science :P
21:58:36 <Vorpal> alise, if you can get at this somehow, I recommend this: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja00893a004 it's just absurd.
21:58:47 <Vorpal> (university proxy, but result is water marked...)
21:58:51 <alise> Vorpal: yes, you looked up the blog post like me :P
21:58:54 <alise> and found the reference to that
21:59:07 <alise> Purchase This Content
21:59:07 <alise> Choose from the following options:
21:59:07 <alise> $30.00 for 48 hours of access
21:59:09 <alise> what a great price!
21:59:09 <Vorpal> alise, and I managed to use university proxy to extract that paper
21:59:22 <alise> £18.98 for *two days* of access to a research paper
21:59:31 <alise> it's so cheap it gives me heartburn.
21:59:40 <Vorpal> alise, ouch, I wonder what they pay for the subscription....
21:59:44 <Vorpal> since it is campus wide
21:59:46 <alise> Vorpal: £lots/year
21:59:51 <alise> in technical units.
22:00:09 <alise> http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=The+Chemical+Properties+of+Dioxygen+Difluoride#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&source=hp&q=The+Chemical+Properties+of+Dioxygen+Difluoride+filetype%3Apdf&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=7eab77b8d2d38738
22:00:14 <alise> "[PDF] Thermodynamic Properties of Dioxygen Difluoride (OZF2) and ..."
22:00:17 <alise> Not the same, Google.
22:00:47 <alise> Nope, can't find it.
22:01:15 <alise> Vorpal: How many hail Marys would I have to do to get your PDF copy? What if I used Tipp-Ex on my screen to remove your watermark? WHAT THEN
22:01:45 <Vorpal> alise, it is scanned and extremely blurry
22:02:47 <Vorpal> alise, and rather boringly written
22:03:08 <Vorpal> alise, in fact, you have to be a chemist to understand that it means what the blog post described
22:03:55 <Vorpal> alise, and sharing it with you is not worth the trouble if it comes to attention. It just isn't
22:05:37 <fizzie> Re "how much it costs", it might be something comparable to ACM Digital Library, which for the "academic institution" class has list prices for "tier 1/2/3/4/5" of 2,000/13421/14634/15322/16021 USD/year. (I can't quite find out what the different tiers actually mean, though.)
22:05:54 <Gregor> I am SO weird looking.
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22:08:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/1189862.txt?key=vgenivuit5vq7guwwqoxa
22:09:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_with_dioxygen_difluoride.php
22:09:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: READ IT BUT DID NOT VERBALLY APPRECIATE MY POETIC TALENT
22:09:50 <alise> ;_; twatbasket is already on urban dictionary
22:09:55 <alise> That was my primary innovation!
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22:24:15 <Vorpal> alise: 4O₂F₂ + H₂S +2HF + 4O₂ + SF₆ + 432.9 kcal
22:24:30 <Vorpal> if units(1) is correct that is fucking 1.8124657 MJ
22:25:31 <Vorpal> also "contradistinction" is a nice word
22:25:57 <oerjan> i recall something about the cal unit being ambiguous
22:26:55 <oerjan> one of the definitions being 1000 times the other
22:28:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, it is however likely in this case to be correct
22:28:03 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't think it's unambiguous if you have the k in there.
22:28:09 <oerjan> about 4.2 and 4200 joules respectively, says wikipedia
22:29:20 <Vorpal> "In contact with a Pt sheet covered with PtF4, dioxygen difluoride exploded at 160°K."
22:29:21 <oerjan> hm probably not, 4.2 gives about what Vorpal said
22:29:42 <zzo38> I win a lot of points at this Bumping Pachinko game
22:29:42 <alise> oerjan: Calories are a dietary unit being 1 kcal.
22:29:47 <alise> You won't see them in science.
22:30:12 <fizzie> "In scientific contexts, the name "calorie" refers to the gram calorie, and this unit has the symbol cal. Metric prefixes are used with this name and symbol, so that the kilogram calorie is known as the "kilocalorie" and has the symbol kcal." -- says the 'pedia too.
22:30:46 <fizzie> I don't think you'll ever really see the k prefix with the larger sort of Cal.
22:32:46 <alise> http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2009/06/11/things_i_wont_work_with_thioacetone.php
22:33:21 * oerjan vaguely recalls a similar article about methyl mercury
22:33:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, sounds about as absurd
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22:37:20 <oerjan> hm he only mentions it in passing on that site
22:38:07 <Vorpal> "When added to Dry Ice, dioxygen difluoride did not react and was only absorbed by the solid. Addition of acetone to this mixture resulted in sparking accompanied by an explosion."
22:38:15 <oerjan> "Dimethyl mercury I will not get within yards of, for very well-founded reasons."
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22:39:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Dimethyl mercury is just CH3HgCH3. Chemistry is terrifying...
22:39:56 <fizzie> Thioacetone sounds like something related to thiotimoline.
22:40:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Both of those compounds are only a few atoms away from propane.
22:41:04 <Phantom_Hoover> As with thiols, which are alcohols with sulphur rather than oxygen stuck on.
22:44:10 <nooga> can you make vodka using them?
22:48:05 <nooga> ethanol is also toxic
22:49:37 <oerjan> wait those 432.9 kcal are for a _single_ set of molecules?
22:52:32 <alise> iirc there was some detail
22:52:47 <alise> oerjan: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1148591
22:53:00 <alise> that's actually per mol
22:53:14 <alise> so not that bad :D
22:54:12 <oerjan> i guess per molecule that would be more than a nuclear bomb...
22:56:42 <oerjan> "They offer it in 100g, 500g, and 1 kilo amounts, which is interesting, because I don't think a kilo of dioxygen difluoride has ever existed." :D
23:02:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, not at once at least
23:02:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, I do think it might have existed in total
23:02:46 <Vorpal> considering how many fucked up experiments that paper he referred to did
23:03:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, rad? That's nothing. sr is way worse
23:03:31 <Vorpal> at least radians make sense
23:03:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, okay but sr is a crazy unit
23:04:06 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steradian
23:04:14 <Phantom_Hoover> mol and rad are just unitlessness masquerading otherwise.
23:04:33 <Ilari> Dimethyl mercury is quite frightening stuff. Highly toxic. Absorbs through skin. Penetrates latex gloves...
23:05:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, dimensionless too
23:05:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well that too :P
23:07:46 <Ilari> Stuff that explodes on contact with water ice in cryogenic temperatures is sure nice stuff...
23:08:36 <Vorpal> Ilari, now I want someone to try FOOF and cesium
23:08:50 <Vorpal> I want to watch the resulting youtube video
23:09:18 <Ilari> FOOF and surfur compounds would probably be good enough...
23:10:07 <Vorpal> Ilari, but I wonder if FOOF and cesium would be worse or not
23:11:12 <Ilari> Also, HF as product... Fun.
23:11:25 <oerjan> sulphur is also electronegative, isn't it, it's just below oxygen in the table
23:11:48 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> mol and rad: my most hated units. ;; radians are sweet
23:11:55 <oerjan> so clearly it's not just about distance on that scale
23:11:56 <alise> but yeah, unitless
23:12:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Effing Americans and your stubborn refusal to accept sane measurements for everything.
23:12:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what, calories or joules?
23:12:37 <alise> joules are clearly superior by virtue of SI
23:12:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: do you also propose that americans measure people in feet and inches, roads in miles, but everything else in metric?
23:13:03 <alise> our system is *fucked up*
23:13:22 <Ilari> I would want to see page that documented FFU electrical units (thankfully, they were probably just too crazy and died).
23:13:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that kcal figure was for *a scientific measurement*.
23:13:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: err, i was supporting joules
23:13:50 <alise> also, it's from the 60s
23:13:52 <alise> there's your excuse
23:14:07 <Ilari> Ah yeah... Nutrion is not a science (at least judging from behaviour of "scientists" of that field).
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23:16:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> So we get on the order of 10^30 joules of energy per *mole* of HS and FOOF reacting.
23:16:37 <Ilari> Haha... The very first sentence of this article (happens to be about nutrion) is completely wrong...
23:16:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: sheesh read the corrections above
23:16:59 <Ilari> That's way too high...
23:17:15 <oerjan> the 433 kcal _is_ for moles
23:17:45 <Ilari> For 1 mole of FOOF or for 4 moles of FOOF reacting with H2S?
23:19:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:19:05 <Ilari> Wow, and when the first sentence is completely wrong, one might think that the rest of article is full of misinformation. Indeed it is...
23:21:01 <Ilari> 1 mole of FOOF is 70g... So 4 moles would be 280g.
23:21:18 <Ilari> Just one I ran across...
23:21:19 <oerjan> tsar bomba was about 210000 TJ, says wp
23:22:30 <Ilari> Well, there's section about smoking... That's probably the only one that's not completely wrong...
23:23:32 <oerjan> so way too high indeed
23:24:02 <Ilari> And as scale, Sun emits about 4 * 10^26 joules of energy per second...
23:24:55 <oerjan> so basically if the numbers had been right we'd have been toast after that experiment
23:26:02 <Vorpal> <Ilari> Well, there's section about smoking... That's probably the only one that's not completely wrong... <-- smooking what?
23:26:09 <Vorpal> I just had a horrible mental image
23:26:14 <nooga> pigs fly and the hell is frozen, i applied for a job of C# programmer
23:26:24 <Vorpal> a guy smooking a cigar with FOOF
23:26:30 <Vorpal> that's a horrible mental picture
23:27:40 <Ilari> nooga: Explodes on contact with water in cryogenic temperatures...
23:27:56 <Ilari> (of course, water is ice in that temperatures).
23:28:04 <Ilari> Its about 70g/mol... So 280g...
23:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> Let's see, the specific heat capacity of water is 4.18kJ/kg/°C
23:32:25 <Ilari> Sulfur is group 16, so it tends to form two bonds... Hydrogen tends to form one...
23:32:56 <Ilari> IIRC, that's more than TNT.
23:34:11 <Ilari> Add to that kinetics and thermodynamics that tend to favor highly rapid reaction...
23:34:33 <Phantom_Hoover_> From this I conclude that 72g of the reactants will boil a litre of water at 0°C.
23:35:27 <Ilari> Just heat to 100 degC... Boiling water takes LOTS of energy...
23:35:39 <nooga> so smoking FOOF in a cigarette would do nothing
23:35:56 <nooga> since cigarettes burn in ca 700 Celcius degs
23:36:12 <Ilari> IIRC, its on order of 2000kJ/kg to boil water...
23:37:04 <Ilari> And FOOF does something nasty in way below zero celsius or so...
23:38:31 <Ilari> And wonder what the compounds with six oxygens and two fluorines are like... :-)
23:41:02 <Ilari> I wouldn't be surprised if FOOF and LOx mixed together would explode before LOx boiled off...
23:42:35 <nooga> drop sodium in a toilet
23:44:12 <nooga> my grandpa was charged for sabotage by soviets when he did this on his university
23:46:29 <Vorpal> <nooga> so smoking FOOF in a cigarette would do nothing
23:46:29 <Vorpal> <nooga> since cigarettes burn in ca 700 Celcius degs
23:46:40 <Vorpal> nooga, probably very toxic
23:46:49 <Vorpal> it would explode before that
23:46:55 <nooga> cigarettes are already very toxic
23:47:01 <Vorpal> it would evaporate and/or explode before that
23:47:19 <Vorpal> nooga, not in the "kills you dead right now" kind of way
23:47:22 <nooga> i thought FOOF explodes only in contact with water in v. low temperatures
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23:47:35 <Vorpal> nooga, it explodes in contact with about everything
23:47:50 <nooga> way better than H-bomb
23:47:53 <Vorpal> nooga, and it isn't stable at higher temperatures
23:48:07 <Vorpal> so that is why only low temperatures are discussed
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23:51:27 <Ilari> There are some other compounds that are erm... Somewhat unstable in that "Things I won't work with" category.
23:51:55 <Ilari> The things that don't even need you to look at them wrong to explode...
23:53:05 <olsner> hmm, but chemical reactions seem pretty lame anyway
23:53:13 <olsner> at least compared to the nucular ones
23:53:46 <Ilari> There are three kinds of exploding compounds: One that require proper ignition, things that explode if you look at them wrong and things that explode even if you don't look at them wrong...
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00:00:10 <Vorpal> Ilari, hypergolic is the last category?
00:00:56 <Ilari> I don't know if every hypergolic is an explosive... Some of them might just burn...
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00:49:54 <alise> augur is allergic to geomtrics
00:50:37 <oerjan> it's very tricky stuff
01:02:57 <nooga> oerjan: what music do you like?
01:03:09 <pikhq> AAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH
01:03:19 <pikhq> So, Visual Studio *2010* does not support C99.
01:04:00 <pikhq> I don't think you realise how backwards C90 is.
01:05:04 <pikhq> This is like only supporting HTML 1.
01:05:59 <nooga> and this is Microsoft
01:06:45 <pikhq> Oh, right, these are the guys that actually spend effort making 15 year old programs run.
01:08:24 <Sgeo> I think I should just state right now that I am not on the IE9 development team.
01:09:21 <nooga> Gregor: without that "not"
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01:11:10 <Gregor> pikhq: MS just doesn't care about C.
01:11:13 <Gregor> They're more concerned with C++
01:11:28 <Gregor> They pretty much only support the subset of C that's also a subset of Microsoft C++.
01:12:12 <Gregor> Also, there are virtually no compilers in existence that fully support C99.
01:12:23 <Gregor> I think SUNPro does, but it's complete garbage otherwise, so *eh*
01:12:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Yeah, but most of them at least *try*.
01:12:39 <Ilari> And also functions that differ from (semi-)standard ones apparently just by name (sprintf_s is just another name for snprintf?)
01:13:16 <pikhq> Oh, GCC's missing support is currently just in glibc.
01:13:26 <Gregor> Oh, have they gotten to that point?
01:13:36 <Gregor> As of the last time I checked (4.2ish?) there were still lacks in GCC proper.
01:14:11 <pikhq> TinyCC does more than Visual Studio.
01:14:18 <pikhq> And it's a *fucking tiny* C compiler.
01:14:26 <Ilari> What function didn't GCC support?
01:14:47 <Gregor> Ilari: Probably some stupidly complicated corner case of complex or similar.
01:14:56 <Gregor> Of complex numbers, that is.
01:17:24 <Ilari> At least C99 doesn't have anything like 'export'.
01:18:08 <alise> <Sgeo> I think I should just state right now that I am not on the IE9 development team.
01:18:28 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/dkk3l/iama_we_are_members_of_the_ie9_product_team_here/
01:18:34 <Sgeo> One of the persons shares my first name
01:18:47 <alise> nobody cares dude :p
01:19:10 * Sgeo mutters something about sense of humor while falling asleep
01:19:26 <Sgeo> Maybe I should get some sleep tonight
01:21:28 <Ilari> export is really infamous for being virtually impossible to support.
01:23:42 <pikhq> There's a reason it's out of C++0x
01:25:16 <Ilari> Yeah... C++0x has other fun stuff... But nothing as bad as export.
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02:15:05 <nooga> went to sleeeep ehhehe
02:15:12 <nooga> he's got school tomorrow
02:15:44 <zzo38> I played D&D game today. I didn't quite get enough points for next level
02:15:59 <nooga> i died in zangband again
02:16:11 <zzo38> But it almost always happens that me and my brother both get the same XP total (even though we did different things)
02:16:15 <nooga> with the most stupid death ever
02:16:18 <zzo38> And it happened today, too
02:16:42 <zzo38> So, different numbers are being added up, it just happens to be the same total
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02:48:53 <pikhq> Reasonably settlable planet discovered a mere 20 light years away.
02:49:12 <pikhq> We could totally settle that sucker with a generation ship.
02:50:59 <Ilari> Maybe not... Small star, likely tidally locked...
02:51:21 <pikhq> It's confirmed to be tidally locked. In the habitable zone of orbit.
02:51:57 <Slereah> Also you'd need the NASA to actually do something.
02:52:06 <pikhq> Slereah: Yes, yes.
02:52:08 <Slereah> How 'bout going back to the moon, first
02:54:53 <Ilari> Many things with life need to be within limits... Too small star and you get too much variablitity and tidelocking. Too large star and it doesn't live long enough. Too near star and water vaporizes, too far from star and water freezes. Too small planet and one doesn't get magnetic field. Too large planet and it becomes gas giant...
02:55:55 <pikhq> Ilari: Here's the thing: they have confirmed that it is at just the right distance to have liquid water, and just the right size to have a reasonable atmosphere.
02:56:01 <Ilari> Oh, and no other planets with badly behaved orbits... And large mooon...
02:56:26 <pikhq> That it's tidelocked just means that there's only a relatively small strip that's at the right temperature.
02:57:38 <Ilari> Okay, for primitive life (bacteria), the limits are wider, but for higher life the conditions have to be pretty much just right.
02:58:15 <pikhq> It's almost certainly got liquid water, and a range of temperatures from blistering hot to absolutely freezing.
02:58:32 <pikhq> Granted, there could very well be something to fuck that up.
02:58:39 <pikhq> (sulpheric acid rain, say?)
02:59:09 <pikhq> But, hell. It's the most likely planet to have life on it. Or to support terrestrial life.
02:59:50 <Ilari> I would say Mars is more likely planet to harbor (simple) life than that place...
03:00:10 <pikhq> Oh, right. Mars has evidence of liquid water, too.
03:00:39 <Ilari> And also phenomena that pretty much can only mean volcanic or biologic activity...
03:00:44 <pikhq> And we know that it doesn't have anything to royally fuck up simple life.
03:01:25 <pikhq> You could probably just let loose some convenient bacteria if you wanted to start a long-term terraforming project.
03:01:38 <pikhq> (... *Really* long term.)
03:02:29 <Ilari> Just thickening the atmosphere would be handy (so you wouldn't have to deal with big pressure diffentials).
03:03:08 <pikhq> And making it have a bit of a more convenient composition.
03:03:38 <pikhq> Even if you couldn't make it support complex life directly (probably couldn't do this), it *would* be nice to make it easy to go from Martian air to breathable air.
03:04:30 <Ilari> That's longer term project... The minimal pressure one can generate long-term breathable atmosphere with is something like 1/3 bar.
03:05:09 <pikhq> Yeah, but we're talking terraforming Mars. Most of it's going to be long-term.
03:05:32 <pikhq> Especially if you want to, say, bring it closer to the Sun. :P
03:06:01 <pikhq> (totally possible, if probably harder than just setting up a gigantic dome over *everything*)
03:07:06 <Ilari> Also, sucking loads of CO2 from atmosphere of Venus and dumping to Mars? Nice extra bonus that CO2 happens to be greenhouse gas...
03:07:49 <pikhq> Solution to global warming while we're at it.
03:12:52 <Ilari> Atmosphere of Earth doesn't have that much CO2 one could extract. Only some 500 gigatons (or something like that). One would need something like 500 teratons of stuff to thicken atmosphere of mars to useful densities...
03:14:16 <pikhq> Yes, but it would still be a convenient source for a short time, and we *could* do with a good place to dump all this long-buried CO2.
03:14:45 <pikhq> More of a solution for the global warming problem than the higher-pressure Mars problem, though.
03:16:05 <Ilari> But looking realistically at global warming problem, it has no graceful solutions...
03:16:49 <pikhq> Except for surreptitiously taking all the fossil fuels and launching them to orbit, you mean. :P
03:17:02 <pikhq> ... Oh, wait. Oil companies would just start space programs.
03:19:54 * oerjan thinks algae biofuel sounds pretty graceful
03:23:26 <pikhq> oerjan: That's a solution to *further* CO2 addition. We've already dumped a heck of a lot into the air, though.
03:23:37 <pikhq> Aaaand smaller quantities of other not-helpful things.
03:23:41 <Ilari> Sure, algae biofuels are probably among the best stuff biofuels can provode...
03:24:09 <pikhq> We're already seeing a lot of painful effects from what we've done.
03:24:19 <pikhq> While people deny it's even happening.
03:24:21 <oerjan> not if we produce _more_ algae than we burn...
03:24:21 <lament> THE WORLD IS DOOMED!!!
03:24:35 <pikhq> oerjan: And then dump it into an oil well?
03:24:47 <oerjan> well that's an option :D
03:24:49 <lament> the oceans are rising!!!
03:24:59 <pikhq> lament: No, things to the south will get much hotter, and coastlines will change.
03:25:02 <lament> soon entire continents will be submerged!!!
03:25:26 <pikhq> And Norway will have very pleasant weather year-round.
03:25:42 <Ilari> IIRC, if all ice in icecaps melted, that would only be something like 60-70m sea level rise...
03:25:43 <lament> sounds like a good thing to me
03:26:01 <pikhq> Ilari: Still enough to rather notably change coastlines.
03:26:18 <oerjan> i've heard about 70m i think
03:26:49 <Quadrescence> lament: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eq2-WH7WoE
03:27:05 <pikhq> And why do people deny global warming *still*?
03:27:23 <Gregor> BECAUSE IT'S COLD OUTSIDE
03:27:26 <lament> because it isn't happening
03:27:33 <Gregor> And that is the extent of my understanding of science.
03:28:00 <Ilari> And regarding geoengineering... X watts of radiative forcing and Y watts of forcing via greenhouse gasses is not the same as X - Z watts of radiative forcing and Y + Z watts of forcing via greenhouse gasses...
03:28:09 <pikhq> I hope that was sarcasm.
03:28:20 <lament> Quadrescence: Um, what?
03:28:35 <pikhq> Sure, it's not the end of the world or anything, but it's certainly *happening* and being quite inconvenient.
03:28:54 <lament> I'm not inconvenienced by the global warming in the slightest.
03:29:00 <lament> It's the evolution that bothers me more.
03:29:18 <Ilari> You are joking, right?
03:29:22 <pikhq> Ah, right, Canada. Global warming is a convenience to you.
03:29:31 <lament> The oceans rose something like 15 cm
03:29:34 <Gregor> pikhq: It's workin' out great for Russia!
03:29:41 <lament> over the whole period of global warming
03:30:09 <pikhq> lament: You... Are joking, right?
03:30:32 <lament> and yes global warming if taken far will have a bunch of positive as well as negative effects
03:30:46 <pikhq> The whole rising sea level thing is an astoundingly minor deal to everyone who's not at 70m or less elevation.
03:30:58 <lament> pikhq: 70m is if all the ice caps melt
03:31:03 <lament> which is not happening
03:31:07 <pikhq> Well. If you're at 71m elevation, the rising sea level thing will be absolutely wonderful for you.
03:31:19 <pikhq> lament: Dude, there is now a Northwest Passage.
03:31:27 <Quadrescence> if the ice caps melt......where will we get our ice???
03:31:31 <Gregor> pikhq: Wait, seriously?
03:31:40 <lament> that's a pretty big difference from the entire antarctica melting
03:31:44 <Gregor> I so intensely ignore the worst parts of the news I wasn't aware of this :P
03:31:52 <pikhq> Gregor: The ice has melted enough that there has been a Northwest Passage for a year or so.
03:32:10 <lament> pikhq: isn't that a good thing?
03:32:12 <Gregor> pikhq: Article or it didn't happen :P
03:32:19 <pikhq> lament: Good chunks of Antarctica is melting.
03:32:27 <Quadrescence> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Passage
03:32:33 <lament> what are you talking about
03:32:38 * Ilari checks cryosphere today...
03:32:46 <lament> like 0.00000001% is in any danger of melting
03:32:47 <zzo38> If you have an infinite number of monkeys, typing an infinte number of messages, on an infinite number of typewriters, with infinite paper and ink ribbon, what is the probability that you will dye tomorrow?
03:32:55 <oerjan> there was this team that sailed through _both_ the northwest and northeast passage this year
03:33:09 <oerjan> i _think_ it was norwegian
03:33:21 <lament> sounds like something norwegians would do
03:33:50 <pikhq> lament: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/2007_Arctic_Sea_Ice.jpg Well, here's the shrinking Artic.
03:35:38 <lament> pikhq: the arctic ice cap is tiny and basically irrelevant
03:35:46 <oerjan> zzo38: are you spelling dye correctly there?
03:36:01 <zzo38> oerjan: I think so. I do know I don't mean "die"
03:36:04 <pikhq> lament: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Antarctic_Ice_Melt-First_Year.jpg And here's where they're starting to see Antarctic melting.
03:36:30 <lament> pikhq: right. that's the tiny bit.
03:36:51 <oerjan> it didn't _use_ to be tiny *ducks*
03:36:52 <lament> pikhq: antarctica has multi-kilometer ice sheets and the little bits at the edges are melting. Big whoop.
03:37:32 <lament> that's why the ocean level rise has been 15cm out of the total of 60 meters
03:37:40 <oerjan> glaciers usually _start_ melting at the edges, lament
03:38:04 <pikhq> Okay, so you're unimpressed by how Antarctica, a continent that does not normally have liquid ice, has started melting.
03:38:32 <lament> i'm definitely impressed if they have liquid ice.
03:38:38 <lament> what the fuck does that even mean?
03:38:43 <pikhq> That was a thinko.
03:38:55 <pikhq> Though, liquid ice = water, so...
03:39:50 <lament> well obviously antarctica has water, all this ice is melting into the ocean
03:40:39 <lament> anyway check wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_ice_sheet
03:40:50 <pikhq> There's also been quite a lot of glacier melting...
03:41:04 <lament> 2007 showed the largest positive anomaly of sea ice in the southern hemisphere since records have been kept starting in 1979 and 2008 is currently on pace to surpass last years record.[15] The atmospheric warming cannot be directly linked to the recent mass losses in West Antarctica.
03:41:09 <lament> This mass loss is more likely to be due to increased melting of the ice shelves because of changes in ocean circulation patterns.
03:41:20 <lament> The melting and disappearance of the floating ice shelves will only have a small effect on sea level, which is due to salinity differences.
03:41:25 <lament> in other words, you're lying to me.
03:41:59 <pikhq> ... In other words, you're bullshitting me. "LALALAGLOBALWARMINGISNOTREALBECAUSEITSNOTTHEAPOCALYPSE"
03:42:29 <lament> eh, of course there's a real increase in temperature
03:42:49 <lament> and sure i can dream that one day canada will be warmer
03:42:52 <lament> but i don't have much hope :(
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03:43:51 <Gregor> NOTHING CAN DESTROY NATURE'S HARMONIC TIMECUBE.
03:46:15 <pikhq> BTW, the current sea level rise rate is 2.8 mm per year. And increasing. Even if we assume it's a constant rate, that's still a 0.28 meter rise in sea level over a century. Which is enough to fuck with a good few coastal cities.
03:48:15 <lament> waves are usually higher than that.
03:48:16 <pikhq> Well, either fuck with them or we have a lot of Venice clones.
03:48:45 <pikhq> You have 1-foot waves?
03:49:42 <pikhq> Still, that's an *increasing* rate.
03:50:12 <lament> by the time this will add up to any actual damage, we'll have ran out of oil anyway :)
03:50:24 <pikhq> And it'll still be going.
03:50:29 <pikhq> ... Which is the problem.
03:51:09 <lament> not for very long, the surplus carbon and stuff gets absorbed
03:51:34 <lament> note that the switch from coal power plants had an almost immediate effect on global warming
03:51:49 <pikhq> "Switch from"? Cute.
03:53:25 <zzo38> The media player skin I use has no graphical buttons for anything, it displays "M==" when playing, "M=|" when paused, "M=_" if stopped, and "P0+" if the file has been closed (I don't quite know why). (When playing Vorbis files though, I just use SoX instead.)
03:54:02 <pikhq> Some countries are better, some are worse, but: the US produces 44% of its power from coal. And another 24% from other fossil fuels.
03:56:43 <Gregor> OMG BUT EVERY NUCLEAR POWER PLANT IS CHERNOBYL
03:56:52 <Gregor> THEREFORE COAL IS SAFER AND CLEANER
03:57:26 <zzo38> You have to use wind for power, then.
03:57:39 <pikhq> Never mind that coal emits more radiation than a nuclear power plant.
03:57:45 <Gregor> Wind power is great, but we just don't have the technology to use it as primary yet.
03:57:47 <pikhq> Erm, a coal power plant.
03:57:57 <Gregor> Hydroelectric is great where it works.
03:58:13 <pikhq> Gregor: Sure we do, it's just much cheaper to burn shit.
03:59:15 <pikhq> Likewise with solar power.
03:59:58 <Gregor> Mmmm, I don't even know if that's true. I think that watts per sq. ft. taken is much, much greater with coal or nuclear. If we started powering major cities with wind, we would need to take an impractical amount of space for wind farms. Maybe that's not true :P
04:00:02 <Gregor> I'll talk to my friend in wind power.
04:00:45 <pikhq> Gregor: I don't think you realise that we could reasonably sacrifice a few *states* to the cause.
04:01:18 <pikhq> Would anyone be sad about Kansas farmers having to farm between windmills?
04:01:39 <Gregor> Mr. Wind Power sez: availability.
04:01:48 <Gregor> Or, more to the point, wind power only works somewhere with a LOT of wind.
04:01:53 <Gregor> So it's no more general than hydroelectric.
04:02:11 <pikhq> Granted, distribution is then a *massive* problem.
04:02:26 <pikhq> But Kansas is windy pretty much all the time.
04:02:33 <pikhq> I'm not even exaggerating.
04:02:43 <Gregor> ---: Just like solar, there are times when you're producing lots of power, and then there are times when you're not producing any
04:02:43 <Gregor> ---: Moreover, the variability needs to be balanced with something steady and controllable, so that you can have the exact amount of energy you need at any given time without wild swings
04:03:18 <pikhq> Storage: perfectly possible with modern technology, but more expensive than burning shit.
04:03:42 <Gregor> I'm still poking at him :P
04:04:17 <pikhq> Of course, nuclear power has much fewer things to deal with. In fact, the *only* thing stopping us is "EVERY NUCLEAR POWER PLANT IS CHERNOBYL".
04:05:06 <pikhq> Oh, and a minor reluctance to reprocess nuclear waste so we get more use out of the fuel and much easier to deal with waste.
04:05:30 <pikhq> But that's easier to deal with than irrationality of a large chunk of the population.
04:06:15 <Gregor> I suggested Kansas-sized capacitors.
04:06:25 <Gregor> He suggested pumped-storage hydroelectricity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity
04:06:34 <Gregor> Storing electrical energy as gravitational potential energy.
04:06:37 <Gregor> That ... is so much awesome.
04:06:38 <pikhq> Yeah, the pump-storage is much more likely.
04:06:45 <pikhq> And it could be Kansas-sized.
04:06:55 <pikhq> Or, better still, Arizona-sized.
04:07:00 <pikhq> With solar plants on top.
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04:07:10 <Sgeo> I guess I should learn how to build an ALU
04:07:25 <Sgeo> ...I think one's been done in AW already
04:08:04 <pikhq> There's a large number of ways you can store energy that are really, astoundingly simple. Flywheels. Compressed air. Pumped-storage hydroelectricity.
04:08:25 <pikhq> I don't know how practical this is, but launching things up into the air and waiting for them to fall. :P
04:08:47 <pikhq> Mmm, potential energy.
04:10:24 <lament> ejaculating into a dam
04:11:05 <pikhq> Only if you're a fish.
04:11:19 <Gregor> I'm told that in Oregon (y'know, a state that DOESN'T suck), renewable energy sources are ~80% of power production.
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04:15:01 <pikhq> Yeah, and to make up for it there's probably a state that burns fuel *just to spite you*.
04:15:13 <pikhq> No boiler attached or anything. Just set it on fire.
04:17:50 <Gregor> So which is more polluting I wonder: a Toyota Prius hybrid, or a Nissan Leaf driven and recharged in Indiana?
04:18:42 <pikhq> The fucking Hummer that PEOPLE ACTUALLY DRIVE AROUND HERE.
04:18:47 <pikhq> PEOPLE COMMUTE IN HUMMERS HERE.
04:19:03 <Gregor> I just see a lot of perfectly-clean pickups.
04:19:18 <Gregor> I find the perfectly-clean pickup to be pretty damned offensive.
04:20:28 <pikhq> For those unaware: a Hummer is a civilian version of the military Humvee vehicle.
04:20:33 <pikhq> It gets 8 miles per gallon.
04:21:47 <pikhq> And it's heavy enough to count as a tax writeoff meant to apply to owner-operated semi-trucks.
04:25:43 <pikhq> It is literally 3 tons. Damn.
04:25:49 <Gregor> Perhaps the most offensive vehicle ever produced is the stretch hummer.
04:26:16 <Gregor> I feel the only appropriate thing to do when you see a stretch hummer is open the passenger door and riddle the cabin with bullets.
04:26:26 <Gregor> Try not to kill the driver, who's probably relatively innocent.
04:28:13 <pikhq> Oh, wow. It's so heavy it's exempt from safety regulations.
04:28:45 <Gregor> ... what ... what does that even mean?
04:29:03 <pikhq> Because it's heavy enough to count as a *bus* or *semitruck* according to the law.
04:29:29 <Gregor> It seems to me like those ought to have /greater/ safety regulations.
04:30:20 <Gregor> I guess I'm just a bright-eyed optimist.
04:31:38 <pikhq> If it were much heavier, though, you would need a commercial driver's license to operate it.
04:32:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/dkkst/reminder_40_of_aols_revenue_still_comes_from/c10wn7g
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05:09:42 <pikhq> Oh my fucking GOD people are morons.
05:10:06 <pikhq> Apparently some people *try to drive around the lowered barrier* at railroad crossings.
05:10:26 <Gregor> Eh, my hummer can take on a train.
05:16:49 <Gregor> I've heard that killing a pedestrian is like a rite of passage for train drivers.
05:19:19 <pikhq> I can at least kinda-sorta understand people who are literally suicidal jumping in front of a train.
05:19:30 <pikhq> But it takes a lot of stupidity to just decide to try and beat the train.
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05:30:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: Nothing about people actually doing it, per se.
05:31:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: But US traffic regulations actually require in many cases that the crossing be designed to make this impossible *because people try it*.
05:38:20 <Gregor> The concern of the regulations, for what it's worth, is damaging /trains/.
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05:41:21 <pikhq> Well, yes. Damage to a car is nothing more than at most a handful of people dying.
05:41:56 <pikhq> Damage to a train is a gigantic mess and causes massive monetary damage.
05:42:06 <pikhq> In addition to a handful of people dying.
05:46:49 <Gregor> Also, it's sort of silly to concern yourself with people who are too stupid to live, err, not doing so.
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06:19:33 <zzo38> Look at this: http://kevtris.org/Projects/votraxpss/module.html (The "method 3" is a similar method to how the internal ROM of the Nintendo DS was dumped. Something that was not meant as code was treated as a THUMB code anyways, and it worked.....)
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06:31:43 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes, but WHAT THE HELL HOW ARE PEOPLE THAT STUPID
06:31:49 <pikhq> Also, Praise be unto Darwin.
06:56:25 <zzo38> Are there any computers that allow you to dynamically modify the microcodes at runtime?
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14:29:19 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the intergalactic hub for esoteric topics in computing and programming languages | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:29:25 <fizzie> (It's important to have goals.)
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14:45:14 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
14:47:38 <ais523> !cintercal DO .1 <- #1 DO COME FROM (99) DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE .2 <- #1 (10) DO (1000) NEXT (99) DO .1 <- .3 DO COME FROM .1 PLEASE GIVE UP
14:48:08 <ais523> yay, worked first time
14:48:16 <ais523> it DCCed me the numbers from 1 to 10 in Roman numerals
14:48:52 <ais523> (I was reading about FizzBuzz, and someone commented that most of the people who applied for programming jobs couldn't even write a loop that went from 1 to 10 in every language in their resume...)
14:49:07 <ais523> admittedly, you can only put that specific loop once in each program, but there are ways to modify it to work around that
14:49:36 <ais523> I was also trying to make the program as clear as possible, at least as clear as INTERCAL gets
14:49:55 <ais523> allowing for the fact that I forgot where "add 1" was in the standard library, so just used a general addition routine instead
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14:57:23 <fizzie> ais523: Do you have INTERCAL listed in your resume?
14:57:32 <ais523> I don't have a resume atm
14:57:38 <ais523> but I would probably list INTERCAL on it if I did have one
14:57:49 <ais523> given that I'm probably in the top 10 in the world for INTERCAL programming
14:58:09 <ais523> (how does my above program do for readability? that's as important as making sure it works, sometimes...)
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14:59:27 <ais523> for those who don't know INTERCAL, (1000) is the address of the standard addition routine; I think that's the only bit of INTERCAL-specific knowledge necessary to understand the program, if you know or can guess how COME FROM works
14:59:57 <fizzie> I could guess it was the addition routine based on the fact that you said you used one.
15:01:02 <ais523> I could write addition out by hand, but it'd likely take several tries
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15:01:11 <ais523> there's a reason it's in the standard library...
15:02:08 <fizzie> It looks very readable, though. I guess you use .1 as an accumulator, and the addition adds .1 and .2 and stores the result to .3.
15:02:25 <ais523> here's my Slashdot sig: (1)DOCOMEFROM".2~.2"~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
15:02:35 <Sgeo> http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/planescape_torment
15:02:37 <fizzie> The loop-terminating "computed come-from" is lovely, if it works like I'd guess.
15:02:48 <ais523> it could be golfed slightly more, but I was only trying to get it short enough to fit in the sigblock
15:03:01 <ais523> assuming you're reasonably good at guessing
15:03:51 <ais523> that sig addition would take rather longer to explain than the above code; not only is it golfed, but it uses a bunch of extensions
15:05:22 <fizzie> Sgeo: How incredibly coincidental; it's not many days ago that PS:T was discussed here.
15:05:30 <Vorpal> <ais523> (I was reading about FizzBuzz, and someone commented that most of the people who applied for programming jobs couldn't even write a loop that went from 1 to 10 in every language in their resume...) <-- do you have intercal listed in your resume?
15:05:45 <ais523> Vorpal: <fizzie> ais523: Do you have INTERCAL listed in your resume?
15:05:58 <ais523> <ais523> I don't have a resume atm <ais523> but I would probably list INTERCAL on it if I did have one
15:06:07 <Vorpal> I hadn't read that far
15:06:27 <fizzie> ais523: See, it's the same thing everyone is surprised by.
15:06:46 <ais523> I was once asked how many programming languages I knew by a journalist
15:07:14 <ais523> I estimated about 30 that I'd be competent enough in to try to do work in, including about 10 esolangs
15:07:25 <Sgeo> I'd have no idea how I'd answer that question
15:07:26 <ais523> far fewer that I'd be up to speed in without practice first
15:07:29 <fizzie> I have a catch-all "esoteric programming languages" mention in the "hobbies" section in the not-really-up-to-date CV I've sent around.
15:07:44 <Sgeo> Would that include languages I''ve read about?
15:07:50 <ais523> (e.g. I had to look at some OCaml code as part of my job this week, and I hadn't used that language for over a year...)
15:08:00 <ais523> Sgeo: any language that you can write a loop that counts from 1 to 10 in, off the top of your head
15:08:14 <ais523> typos, etc., are forgivable if you can correct them after getting a compile error
15:08:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you include stuff like sed and awk into that count?
15:08:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I haven't counted anything.
15:09:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, but in your estimate I mean
15:09:22 <ais523> in my case, I don't know sed well enough to really claim competence in it, although I can use it if I have the info pages handy
15:09:27 <ais523> and I hardly know awk at all
15:09:39 <ais523> (why would someone learn sed, awk, /and/ Perl?)
15:09:44 <Vorpal> I know awk better than sed. sed I know a very limited subset of
15:09:59 <Vorpal> basically, sdpq and a few more
15:09:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't have an estimate either. I don't really know what is the "that count" you were referring to there.
15:10:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh I somehow read "<ais523> I was once asked how many programming languages I knew by a journalist" as starting with "<fizzie>"
15:10:47 <ais523> Vorpal: half the commands in sed seem to be grouped into s somehow
15:10:53 <Vorpal> you two should 1) stop having same nick length 2) stop sending lines while I blink thus making stuff jump a line
15:10:55 <Sgeo> People in school think I know a lot of languages, just because I talk about a lot of languages :/
15:10:56 <ais523> presumably because they ran out of letters
15:11:18 <ais523> also, "fizzie" is shorter than "ais523", it contains more occurrences of the letter i, not to mention that f and e are shorter than numbers in most fonts
15:11:24 <Vorpal> ais523, hm? s is just... substitute iirc?
15:11:37 <ais523> Vorpal: nope, e.g. s///e is how you call shell commands
15:11:42 <ais523> it's substitute then do other things
15:11:53 <Vorpal> ais523, what do you mean shorter? same letter count, and you know I use fixed font
15:12:04 <ais523> you use a /terminal/ for IRC?
15:12:12 <ais523> don't you use your terminal for, say, programming?
15:12:13 <Vorpal> ais523, everyone using irssi does too?
15:12:17 <ais523> IRC is something you have on in the background
15:12:46 <Vorpal> ais523, but yes I use ERC in emacs running in terminal
15:12:46 * Sgeo hopes he won't be late for school
15:12:59 <Sgeo> Vorpal, tried that once for kicks
15:13:22 <Sgeo> I think I had a screenshot somewhere
15:13:28 <ais523> Vorpal: more excusable then, although Emacs is perfectly capable of variable-width fonts
15:13:53 <fizzie> Emacs in a terminal isn't, though.
15:14:17 <Vorpal> almost everything in a terminal isn't compatible with variable width
15:14:25 <ais523> I only run Emacs in a terminal when I want to termcast it
15:14:36 <Vorpal> and also, a lot of stuff on irc is fixed width. Like lists from various services
15:15:14 <ais523> heh, I've just noticed that in this font, "fizzie" is actually shorter than "Sgeo"
15:15:15 <Vorpal> that was ages ago iirc
15:15:18 <ais523> although only by a few pixels
15:15:32 <fizzie> I think there was in... not more than five years ago.
15:20:03 <Vorpal> why do so many power supplies for laptops and similar make a very high pitched noise when they are "idle" (not charging device and device is mostly idle)
15:20:55 <Vorpal> it's like they were designed by someone deaf. Extremely annoying. My thinkpad power supply is thankfully unusually quiet. Most other ones are not
15:21:23 <ais523> Vorpal: mine old one actually had an alarm that sounded when it short-circuited
15:21:30 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's connected somehow
15:21:41 <Vorpal> ais523, um, it short-circuited?
15:21:45 <ais523> (presumably my current one does too as it's the same model, but I'm unwilling to short-circuit it to find out
15:22:05 <ais523> I was without a laptop for around a week, and the PSU actually caught fire for a moment
15:22:58 <ais523> it's a good thing that shutting off the power upon an electrical fire is a reflex action for an electronic engineer...
15:23:07 <Vorpal> ais523, hm well this depends on load, and seems to happen during normal operation. Usually worse on older power supplies, but not always. And from what I remember it doesn't get much worse over time.
15:23:17 <Vorpal> ais523, but how could it short
15:23:35 <ais523> the insulation between the positive and negative outputs had worn away somehow
15:24:00 <Vorpal> ais523, you left it connected for a week when you didn't use it? Or did I misinterpret "<ais523> I was without a laptop for around a week, and the PSU actually caught fire for a moment" ?
15:24:12 <fizzie> I have been under the impression that the whine is mostly related to capacitors. I have a cell phone charger that has an absolutely incredible noise, though in its case it was pretty silent at first, only started being noisy later.
15:24:20 <ais523> that and is a logical and, it isn't meant to carry over context from one part of the sentence to another
15:24:36 <ais523> fizzie: that's plausible, although it'd be a pretty dubious capacitor that made noise while it was working
15:24:39 <ais523> in theory, they have no moving parts
15:24:51 <ais523> in practice, they have a lot of parts which aren't always well-secured, as capacitance depends on the shape...
15:25:16 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor#Capacitance_instability -- "In the reverse microphonic effect, the varying electric field between the capacitor plates exerts a physical force, moving them as a speaker. This can generate audible sound, but drains energy and stresses the dielectric and the electrolyte, if any." -- is talking about the same thing.
15:25:44 <fizzie> Oh, and I have one video card that makes an even crazier noise when it's doing 3D; but not in normal use.
15:25:53 <ais523> capacitor microphones work by having one of the plates deliberately not fixed in place
15:26:13 <ais523> whereas for the opposite effect, it would be a case of the plate not being fixed by accident
15:26:13 <Vorpal> all PSUs does make a noise to some degree in my experience. Even my thinkpad one when idle. I just have to put my ear next to it in that case
15:26:22 <Vorpal> and it is rather lower pitch
15:26:57 <ais523> the pitch will depend on the frequency
15:27:15 <ais523> I wouldn't be surprised if laptop PSUs were switched-mode, and thus used a frequency much higher than mains frequency to operate
15:27:26 <ais523> it explains why the pitch is much higher than 50 or 60Hz, and not constant
15:27:33 <Vorpal> ais523, well I have an older dell laptop next to my thinkpad, it's charger makes a higher pitch noise and a lot louder too
15:27:49 <Vorpal> I can hear it above the constant speed fans of my desktop
15:27:57 <Vorpal> which are not exactly quiet
15:28:48 <Vorpal> ais523, if the dell is loaded the noise goes away, same if it is charging. Just idle (and even more so, suspend to ram) causes the noise
15:29:02 <Vorpal> and it is definitely the power supply brick for it
15:30:12 <fizzie> The noisy cell phone charger noise has this rhythmic component in it, and it changes depending on whether it's just plugged in the wall without a phone or whether it's actually charging the phone.
15:31:01 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, if you listen at the PSU you are using atm I bet you will hear it makes some noise (if you are using a laptop, I never seen, or rather heard, this issue with a desktop, maybe because they are usually louder when it comes to fans and such anyway)
15:31:11 <ais523> Vorpal: I know it makes noise
15:31:16 <ais523> and even mentioned that earlier
15:31:23 <Vorpal> hm I must have missed that line
15:31:37 <ais523> mostly it happens when not loaded, if you unplug it from both the plug and the laptop there's a faint whirring noise which reduces as time goes on until it runs out
15:31:51 <ais523> (which makes sense, as the thing isn't being powered by anything but energy left in its capacitors when that happens)
15:33:06 <Vorpal> the issue here is really that for the dell "faint" is not a property that can be used to describe the noise. Something like "high pitched enough that anyone older than 50 won't hear it, and likely to induce severe headaches in anyone capable of hearing it" is more apt.
15:33:37 * Vorpal turns off the laptop and unplugs it
15:40:18 <fizzie> In other news, I was thinking of maybe applying http://www.cis.hut.fi/projects/mi/papers/mlg2010graphvis_preprint.pdf on that "people who talk with each other on the channel" graph. (And maybe plain NeRV dimensionality reduction for those writing-style points too.)
15:41:29 <fizzie> (My long-term goal seems to be to make this the most visualized freenode channel evar.)
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16:31:11 <ais523> fizzie: convert everything that's happened into the channel into a matrix, then extract its eigenvectors
16:31:14 <ais523> they probably mean something
16:36:15 <Vorpal> <fizzie> (My long-term goal seems to be to make this the most visualized freenode channel evar.) <-- yay
16:36:45 <alise> 21:46:49 <Gregor> Also, it's sort of silly to concern yourself with people who are too stupid to live, err, not doing so.
16:36:48 <Vorpal> ais523, how do you convert the logs to a matrix?
16:37:09 <alise> Gregor: except of course that train drivers who end up running into people get *serious* long-term psychological damage
16:37:15 <alise> unless you didn't mean that
16:38:19 <Vorpal> alise, and it is rather shocking for other people on the train too, though indeed the train drivers get the worst effects by far.
16:38:48 <alise> yeah people on the train get shaken for a few days, drivers continue the cycle by jumping in front of another train :P
16:38:51 <alise> 07:02:25 <ais523> here's my Slashdot sig: (1)DOCOMEFROM".2~.2"~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
16:38:55 <alise> with the < and &? >:)
16:39:06 <ais523> as with other Slashdot sigs
16:39:09 <Vorpal> alise, and think of the people who have to clean up the mess too, can't be fun either
16:39:10 <ais523> it looks correct on the page
16:39:24 <ais523> but the escaping's relevant due to trying to fit within character count
16:39:37 <ais523> I could save one character by changing ".2~.2" to !2~.2'
16:39:42 <alise> Vorpal: "I found something!" "What is it?" "Uhh... brain?... or something?"
16:39:56 <alise> ais523: do that, then :P
16:39:56 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's golfable further than that, unless some of the sparkears groups can be omitted entirely without changing the meaning
16:40:10 <alise> ais523: hmm, please tell me that " acts like '' in intercal
16:40:21 <alise> so you can do "abc'xyz' to mean ((abc)xyz)
16:40:22 <ais523> alise: no, " and ' act the same but are differetn
16:40:24 <Vorpal> alise, iirc in Sweden they drive out a special train with a water tank to wash the results off, rather than driving a bloody train to the nearest station
16:40:30 <alise> because that would be awesome
16:40:39 <ais523> otherwise it'd be impossible to do grouping in array subscripts unambiguously
16:40:42 <alise> Vorpal: common occurrence in Sweden then :D
16:41:11 <alise> it's pretty popular in japan
16:41:22 <alise> [[A typical suicide may cause delays between one and a few hours[citation needed] on one or more lines. The costs to the surviving families by the railway companies' "delay fee" is often in the 100 million yen range.]]
16:41:53 <alise> Japan: Your relative killed themselves this morning. We sincerely apologise. The bill is £756,458.73.
16:41:54 <ais523> 1 yen is approximately equal to 1 US cent, isn't it?
16:41:56 <Vorpal> alise, it happens a few times / year. It does everywhere but you don't see a lot of it in news. Simply because it has been shown that such can inspire other mentally unstable people to "copy" the act.
16:42:00 <ais523> that's quite a lot of money
16:42:18 <alise> rounding up from 0.75(6...)
16:42:23 <ais523> a bit more than 1¢, then
16:42:34 <ais523> unless the pound has really fallen recently
16:42:45 <alise> $0.012, apparently
16:43:02 <alise> (then it goes 005, but I'm not sure money that small even exists :-))
16:43:32 <Vorpal> alise, 1) that cost is absurd.... 2) I can't think how they could figure out who did it... it isn't like the body is recognisable after such an event as far as I understand it.
16:44:00 <alise> Vorpal: In Japan, EVERY CELL OF YOUR BODY HAS A MICROCHIP IN IT
16:44:06 <alise> (You need it for the latest phones)
16:44:35 <alise> i just love how crass that is :D japan is so perverse... in more ways than one
16:44:46 <alise> "Recently, railway companies have begun implementing measures to discourage and prevent train suicides. This includes use of blue LED lights in stations, which officials hope will calm potential jumpers."
16:44:59 <Vorpal> alise, do they sue the lightning when it takes out the transformer station that powers the overhead wires?
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16:45:13 <alise> Vorpal: They sue the train driver for not stopping soon enough!
16:45:22 <ais523> alise: in the UK, IIRC Network Rail made a huge donation to the Samaritans so they could afford advertising at train stations to reduce the suicide rate
16:45:27 <ais523> on the basis that it saved them money overall
16:45:54 <alise> ais523: there are little default-formatting, white-background Times New Roman posters for the Samaritans on the Tyne Bridge
16:46:07 <alise> ais523: all I can think is, why would you want to jump into something as dirty as the Tyne?
16:46:21 <alise> it's practically opaque!
16:46:32 <ais523> reminds me a debate I saw recently about whether you should alcohol-swab someone's arm before giving them a lethal injection
16:46:50 <Vorpal> alise, human waste or just "natural" mud or sand or such?
16:46:51 <ais523> they said that you should at least use a clean needle, in case the person giving the injection pricks themself by mistake
16:47:21 <Vorpal> ais523, wouldn't that be lethal too?
16:47:32 <alise> Vorpal: I'm not sure the /water/ in the Tyne is natural.
16:47:40 <ais523> Vorpal: no, lethal injections are a mix of drugs, you need at least two of them to actually die
16:47:50 <ais523> and they give them in sequence
16:47:54 <alise> It might be just excessive quantities of urine, filtered down by all the mud over the years.
16:47:58 <ais523> also, IIRC there are antidotes, they just don't use them in executions
16:47:59 <Vorpal> ais523, where do they use that?
16:48:01 <alise> ais523: you only need one
16:48:06 <ais523> alise: well, not the first one, anyway
16:48:06 <alise> they give the others because fuck you
16:48:10 <ais523> first one's just an anaesthetic
16:48:18 <ais523> second and third are redundant with each other, though
16:48:21 <alise> ais523: in fact, iirc the extra drug makes it *way more painful*
16:48:35 <ais523> no death penalty in UK any more
16:48:36 <alise> and just one of them would do it with very high certainty, making the other one ridiculous
16:48:50 <alise> of course arguing about how to lethally inject people is stupid
16:48:53 <ais523> although it was only repealed about 10 years ago, when they noticed there were still some obscure offences that carried it
16:48:54 <alise> the real answer is not to do that :P
16:49:17 <ais523> I think one of them was setting an entire Royal Navy shipyard on fire
16:49:23 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: probably, that's the one everyone remembers
16:49:38 <ais523> kind-of difficult to do nowadays, given that the ships are no longer made of wood
16:49:38 <alise> i'm just trying to think of the mindset whoever does that
16:49:44 <alise> Okay... let's set FIRE to all this crap!
16:49:51 <alise> BAH! IT IS NOT ENOUGH! I WILL IGNITE THROUGH THE NIGHT
16:49:54 <ais523> alise: presumably to prevent the ships being used in wartime
16:50:05 <alise> ais523: so if you spared one ship you're okay?
16:50:33 <ais523> well, the fire would have spread from one ship to another, back when the law was created
16:51:03 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ultimate_bf_instruction_minimalization!
16:51:06 <alise> is this even a BF dialect any more?
16:51:07 <Phantom_Hoover> So setting them on fire might end up irradiating Edinburgh, which would be A Bad Thing.
16:51:11 <alise> it has memory mapping!
16:51:16 <alise> that's Wrong with a capital W!
16:51:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Would it? Would it really?
16:52:13 <Vorpal> <alise> i'm just trying to think of the mindset whoever does that <- someone who works for a foreign country and wants to reduce naval power
16:52:24 <ais523> except for the really inert ones like gold and copper
16:52:43 <Vorpal> ais523, can't you get gold to burn?
16:53:04 <Vorpal> ais523, surely with enough heat it should be possible to make it react with stuff
16:53:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I was referring to the Bad Thing part. :-)
16:53:05 <ais523> no, gold is more stable than gold oxide, which has IIRC never been formed in a lab
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16:53:18 <ais523> presumably if it was hot enough you might get a reversible reaction set up
16:53:23 <ais523> but that wouldn't be burning
16:54:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: True, I'd be more sure about Glasgow. :P
16:54:50 <Vorpal> ais523, hm things can burn in other atmospheres than oxygen
16:54:58 <Phantom_Hoover> As an Edinburgher, that is my defined purpose in life.
16:55:05 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't think gold fluoride exists either
16:55:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Irradiating Glasgow?
16:55:29 <ais523> and it's the only anion more reactive than oxide
16:55:36 <alise> GOLD FLOURIDE? AND THEY PUT THIS IN THE WATERR!J!IO!JOI!
16:55:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But that's the Glaswegians' job!
16:55:50 <Vorpal> ais523, what about compounds? Or does that not count?
16:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It's second only to killing the English, which is one's prerogative as a Scot.
16:56:07 <ais523> Vorpal: it could count in theory, but they're less reactive than the pure elements, generally
16:56:08 <Vorpal> ais523, maybe aqua regia in gas form
16:56:18 <ais523> would that be burning, or dissolving?
16:56:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh damn, it relies on that
16:56:41 <Vorpal> I didn't remember how it worked
16:57:05 <Vorpal> ais523, FOOF, you can't go wrong with that. If that does nothing, I have no idea what would
16:57:38 <ais523> well, OK, that's pretty reactive
16:57:49 <ais523> but does it count as burning? I can't remember the actual definition by this point
16:57:57 <Vorpal> ais523, and it's oxidizing iirc
16:58:02 <alise> FOOF just goes bang, doesn't it? :P
16:58:08 <ais523> (even so, if it does react, I'd expect the gold to catalyse it into fluorine and oxygen rather than react itself)
16:58:30 <Vorpal> alise, it seems you can make it not go bang by being extremely careful. For a handful of things
16:59:00 <Phantom_Hoover> You can stop it from going bang by storing it at cryogenic temperatures, for one thing.
16:59:00 <Vorpal> iirc it went "bang" with a sheet of platinum coated with something (forgot what)
16:59:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it still goes bang then.
17:01:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway you can't get it to react at non-cryogenic temperatures. Simply because it will already be gone then
17:01:29 <Vorpal> it isn't stable at room temperature iirc
17:02:42 <Vorpal> ais523, hm, what if you heat the gold up a _lot_. Thousands of kelvins.
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17:02:47 <Vorpal> and under high pressure
17:03:14 <ais523> well, high pressure increases the chance that the reaction will go in the direction that leads towards a smaller number of molecules overall
17:03:26 <ais523> I doubt you'd get all the gold to react, though; maybe just a percentage depending on pressure
17:03:30 <Vorpal> okay what about low pressure?
17:03:47 <ais523> low pressure would make it more likely to go in the other direction, at high temperatures it would unreact any gold that had reacted
17:05:00 <Vorpal> ais523, why is gold so inert? After all, shouldn't it have one electron in the outermost shell. Unless I'm completely lost
17:05:19 <ais523> the spare electrons are in one of the inner shells, IIRC, or something like that
17:05:32 <Vorpal> ais523, that's cheating XD
17:05:39 <ais523> due to the way quantum energy levels work out
17:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, if you dropped chemistry before university, you don't know how electron shells work.
17:30:07 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: they teach it at A-level here in the UK
17:30:22 <ais523> as in, the full quantum definition, explaining why gold doesn't have any outer shell electrons, etc
17:31:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I discovered that my school does an exercise which entails doing chromatography. On "DNA".
17:31:28 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: because it ends up symmetrical
17:31:39 <ais523> also, there are reasons to do chromatography on DNA
17:32:02 <ais523> you replicate it a lot, split it at random points, tag each strand by the point it was split at (which can be done chemically without having to sort each strand individually)
17:32:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Not ones which would be sensibly taught in high school.
17:32:13 <ais523> then use chromatography to sort the strands by length
17:32:22 <ais523> that gives you the sequence
17:32:38 <ais523> even at GCSE, we were taught that that was possible, and had an idea of why it was done
17:32:40 <ais523> although not the details
17:32:46 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Smack-tux.svg
17:32:48 <ais523> nor did we do it ourselves, it would have been far too expensive
17:32:58 <alise> ais523: ha, don't talk to me about GCSE science!
17:33:13 <alise> they've made a new course, "Twenty First Century Science", and then *taken all the science out of it*
17:33:15 <ais523> alise: single, double, or triple?
17:33:22 <alise> Forces are not covered in physics.
17:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> And they weren't using DNA; it was dyes. They were taking lies-to-children to a frankly immoral degree.
17:33:28 <alise> Half the book is ethical questions. ARE STEM CELLS RIGHT??
17:33:33 <alise> It is *ludicrously* bad.
17:33:43 <ais523> how many GCSEs does it count as, anyway?
17:33:47 <ais523> single science was bad enough as it is
17:33:47 <alise> Let me repeat: FORCES ARE NOT COVERED IN PHYSICS
17:33:50 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, if you dropped chemistry before university, you don't know how electron shells work. <-- true
17:33:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I wasn't given a choice!
17:33:54 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: single science, at least, is compulsory here
17:33:56 <alise> ais523: Pretty sure it's one.
17:34:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, calling it cheating was however an obvious joke, if that is what you replied to
17:34:12 <alise> I *would* switch, but it's kind of late now that I'm in year 11.
17:34:17 <ais523> double was what was given to even the worst-at-science children in my school, because single was so worthless
17:34:29 <ais523> triple exists, but wasn't done if you were going on to A-level as it duplicated some of the start of A-level
17:34:49 <alise> This is actually the only case so far of the unit being better at education than the school.
17:34:58 <alise> The unit were doing either double or triple AQA Science; I forget which.
17:35:04 <Vorpal> <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Smack-tux.svg <-- context?
17:35:07 <alise> QE are doing Twenty First Century Ethical Questions.
17:35:13 <ais523> incidentally, I think I have as many AS-levels than GCSEs
17:35:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't help but feel that doing biology without chemistry (or chemistry without physics, to a lesser degree) is stupid as hell.
17:35:27 <ais523> which is kind-of unusual
17:35:28 <alise> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Mandatory_Access_Control_Kernel logo
17:35:51 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the physics syllabus we were taught at my school was pretty bad, and wouldn't have helped with chemistry at all
17:36:03 <ais523> the chemistry and biology syllabi were pretty good, though
17:36:07 <alise> Personally, I'm just treating my GCSEs as my ticket into sixth form.
17:36:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm still waiting to be told how fucking magnets work.
17:36:17 <alise> Every course is *too damn stupid* to take seriously.
17:36:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, you'd need magnetic genitalia...
17:36:50 <ais523> magnets are actually rather tricky
17:36:58 <ais523> due to chemistry mostly being expressed in terms of electrostatics
17:37:00 <alise> So yeah, I would just like to confirm that no, nobody is imagining that the quality of education is going down because it sure as hell is.
17:37:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume it involves Maxwell's equations and the understanding thereof.
17:37:14 <ais523> alise: I have objective evidence that the difficulty of A-level maths is going down, at least
17:37:24 <ais523> evidence: 1/6 of the syllabus was removed the year after I took it
17:37:29 <ais523> for the same amount of credit
17:37:41 <ais523> what was previously 5/6 of the syllabus was redistributed into 6/6
17:37:51 <ais523> and if you did the remaining 1/6, it counted as an /extra/ 1/6 of credit
17:37:52 <alise> I've heard of AS but not AH.
17:37:57 <ais523> thus making it easier to do A2
17:38:06 <ais523> alise: Phantom_Hoover is scottish, they have a saner education system there than in England
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17:38:10 <alise> I love how they keep inventing new names for "Stupid People Course" and "Everyone Else Course".
17:38:14 <Phantom_Hoover> WE ARE PATRIOTIC SCOTS WE WILL NOT HAVE YOUR REPRESSIVE ENGLISH EXAMS
17:38:39 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: in England, "Advanced" and "Higher" are names of two of the grading tiers you can ask for exams for
17:38:45 <ais523> (which is a stupid idea /anyway/...)
17:38:54 <ais523> why can't they just have one exam that goes all the way from A* to G?
17:38:55 <alise> IIRC, Twenty First Science calls them "Higher Applied" and "Higher".
17:38:58 <alise> Guess which one's Foundation?
17:39:10 <alise> Does this make any sense? No!
17:39:10 <ais523> also, why can't they have a G grade still being meaningful?
17:39:25 <alise> ais523: how does anyone manage to get less than C on a GCSE course?
17:39:26 <ais523> nowadays, it's even more embarassing than a U because at least there's a plausible excuse for getting a U
17:39:28 <alise> you'd have to, like, try
17:39:39 <ais523> alise: well, U you can get by not answering any of the questions
17:39:54 <ais523> if you got exactly one right, I'm not sure where the grade would end up after it was adjusted for UMC
17:39:59 <ais523> probably around an E or F
17:40:03 <alise> ais523: Well, okay: how can anyone who actually ticks boxes for every question get less than a C?
17:40:11 <ais523> alise: multiple choice?
17:40:13 <alise> Even if you ticked randomly, you'd have a damn good chance :P
17:40:14 <ais523> by being really unlucky
17:40:17 <alise> ais523: I was speaking metaphorically.
17:40:18 <Phantom_Hoover> The SQA has a pretty huge number of courses as well...
17:40:59 <alise> I wonder if I could murder whoever decided GCSE English Literature should be anything like GCSE English Literature.
17:41:14 <ais523> ISTR that at least one of the mandatory exams in England - the SATs, perhaps - had a bunch of really closely overlapping tiers
17:41:25 <ais523> so you had to figure out whether you were going for 7-9, 6-8, or 5-7
17:41:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Language and lit, you mean?
17:41:36 <ais523> to get above a 9, you had to do a separate paper and also the 7-9 paper
17:41:50 <ais523> alise: I don't actually have GCSE English Literature
17:42:13 <alise> ais523: I think it's mandatory now.
17:42:19 <alise> If not, I am so fucking ON dropping that course.
17:42:30 <alise> ais523: "I'm not doing English Lit... BUT DON'T TELL ANYONE."
17:42:31 <ais523> but the syllabus was so stupid that I refused to do any work in lessons
17:42:54 <ais523> and then the school, presumably "accidentally", forgot to enter me for it for fear I'd ruin the statistics
17:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> My English class is sometimes so stupid it gives me a headache.
17:43:08 <alise> ais523: You are my new hero.
17:43:09 <ais523> after I'd already got a U in the mock SATs, through turning up but not writing anything out of protest
17:43:26 <ais523> an N looks a lot better on the stats than a U
17:43:31 <ais523> because there are loads of innocent explanations for one of those
17:43:39 <alise> I hadn't even considered that grades below, say, D existed.
17:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Like the time we were given "discussion points", i.e. "asking lots of ignorant and disinterested teenagers what their opinions on things were."
17:43:57 <ais523> that said, I now realise - I didn't at the time - that I could probably have passed it anyway despite not having a clue what the exam was even about, just because the pass marks were so low
17:44:01 <alise> <ais523> after I'd already got a U in the mock SATs, through turning up but not writing anything out of protest ;; did you just protest against everything? :D
17:44:09 <ais523> alise: not /everything/, but quite a lot
17:44:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Discourse on Hawking's comments on the beginning of the universe included "DIE DAWKINS DIE".
17:44:25 <ais523> I was in either other year's classes, or solitary confinement, for quite a lot of subjects
17:45:02 <alise> ais523: I skipped all the hassle and dropped out. But then the state decided they didn't much like that.
17:45:04 <ais523> I do have a B in the main English GCSE, though
17:45:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Please tell me that's a literal quote.
17:45:12 <ais523> alise: well, I liked other subjects
17:45:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You made video, yes? Post video.
17:45:36 <ais523> I have an A* in GCSE Systems and Control, which was an excellent and properly difficult GCSE that ceased to exist shortly after I took it because nobody was taking it
17:45:40 <ais523> presumably because the alternatives were so much easier
17:46:09 <ais523> also, I was within the top 5 grades in the country, which was probably 99.5% as I dropped a mark on the coursework
17:46:09 <alise> ais523: what's it about, in non-GCSE-subject-speak?
17:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it wasn't actually *said*, presumably because the teacher was intelligent enough to realise that asking us to actually speak about things would result in anarchy.
17:46:16 <alise> at least it doesn't end with "Studies"
17:46:24 <ais523> alise: electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, etc
17:46:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I said literal quote.
17:46:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, so it was written?
17:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It was written on a big piece of paper which was passed around for comments.
17:46:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Sure it wasn't, like, sarcastic?
17:46:52 <ais523> the coursework component was famously difficult
17:47:06 <ais523> and had people spending an entire year trying to construct something electronic (or if they really wanted, pneumatic)
17:47:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I asked the girl who wrote it and she seemed serious.
17:47:28 <alise> pneumatic computers
17:47:38 <alise> THERE IS NO REASON WE DO NOT HAVE THESE OTHER THAN THE WORLD BEING WRONG
17:48:13 <ais523> alise: nobody took the pneumatic option, probably because it was too hard to get parts and also stupidly complex
17:48:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: YOU ARE WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE WORLD
17:48:31 <ais523> also, pneumatics circuit diagram symbols are stupid
17:49:43 <ais523> alise: incidentally, if you care, BlogNomic was won twice today
17:49:49 <ais523> and given how rare wins are, that's pretty spectacular
17:50:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That's for future research. I am fine having gigantic computers.
17:50:20 <alise> (MICROSCALE PNEUMATIC TRANSISTOR OMG OMG OMG)
17:50:34 <ais523> alise: there are relay-based computers still used in telephone exchanges
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17:50:47 <ais523> because they work and their failure modes are relatively easy to predict
17:50:52 <ais523> not quite the same, but still impressive
17:51:30 <alise> "I just looked at the timestamps and if I win I believe this is among the shortest BlogNomic Dynasties ever, if it’s not /the/ shortest: 32 minutes from Ascencion Address to DoV. =P"
17:51:38 <alise> ais523: you should have said it "was once twice in one hour today"
17:51:45 <alise> that's even more impressive
17:52:02 <ais523> not really, that's from AA to DoV which isn't a legit way to count
17:52:08 <ais523> "new dynasty won within an hour", perhaps
17:52:14 <alise> "Another 4chan favourite is Pedobear, a harmless-looking ursoid cartoon character who, despite his loveable appearance... you get the idea." --BBC News
17:52:22 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, did you even go near the GCSE computing curriculum?
17:52:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Um, I'm doing the ECDL course, which is a sixth form class in this high school/sixth form double-whammy institution. It's stupidly easy. Apparently after that I can do a GCSE-equivalent IT course.
17:53:02 <alise> Because I am doing very few GCSEs -- not by choice -- and it will help inflate that number.
17:53:13 <alise> I am very, very angry that they are called IT courses.
17:53:24 <alise> They *must* be renamed Microsoft Office qualifications, or I will burn down the building.
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17:53:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Pfftahahahahahahaha!
17:53:57 <ais523> alise: at least they don't call it "computer science"
17:54:15 <ais523> IT can be roughly defined as "things you do with a computer that aren't computer-science-related"
17:54:27 <alise> ECDL is about *basic operation of Word, Excel, Access, PowerPoint, Windows Explorer, Internet Explorer and Outlook*, Phantom_Hoover.
17:54:30 <alise> That is a BAD THING.
17:54:41 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: major programming, beyond simple scripting, is probably not an appropriate topic for a course that's actually about IT
17:54:43 <alise> I do not have much better hopes for the GCSE-equivalent.
17:54:49 <ais523> alise: well, that's the stated purpose of ECDL, pretty much
17:55:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, have you seen a bunch of teenagers trying to code?
17:55:05 <ais523> the GCSE equivalent, at least when I took it, was much the same as that except with the names filed off
17:55:29 <ais523> I remember getting furious with the teacher when they insisted I printed off every page of a spreadsheet both in standard and show-formula mode
17:55:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, and I hope to never.
17:55:38 <ais523> because every page was the same on showing formulae
17:55:48 <ais523> I don't think I realised at the time that that's what they were trying to check
17:55:55 <alise> If I can at all help it, the first time I'll see someone else with a line of code will be at university.
17:56:06 <ais523> (also, the stupidity of trying to mark someone's spreadsheet ability with printouts is an entirely different topic...)
17:56:31 <alise> The IT tutor they got for me at the unit was a pretty cool guy. I spent most of the homework time replacing silly Excel spreadsheets with Logo programs.
17:56:32 <ais523> alise: if it's any help, I find that people who haven't programmed before but have a good maths background are the people who it's easiest to teach programming too
17:56:37 <ais523> (remember I teach first-time programming)
17:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you know how long it took the idiots in my class to write a simple program that was basically equivalent to "read stuff in, sum some of it, then print it" took?
17:56:43 <alise> Which, of course, was just replacing them with slightly-strange-Lisp programs.
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17:56:48 <alise> So that was happymaking enough.
17:57:07 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: how many things? and what was summed and what wasn't?
17:57:12 <ais523> I want to try this as an INTERCAL oneliner for practice
17:57:14 <alise> ais523: Agreed, although I have no experience teaching first-time programming.
17:57:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I have repressed the memories quite thoroughly.
17:57:39 <ais523> the people who've taught themselves VB or something like that often fall into terrible habits, but write programs that work
17:58:00 <ais523> those are the people who you have to yell at a lot and teach the same thing incessantly to prevent them ending up on thedailywtf.com
17:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> The teacher being a complete idiot didn't help, either.
17:58:19 <ais523> there are also people who don't understand programming at all, pretty much
17:58:24 <ais523> even when you try to teach them
17:58:30 <ais523> ideas for dealing with them would be appreciated
17:58:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, and the Higher curriculum states outright that Unicode is 16-bit.
17:58:58 <ais523> it's about 20.05-bit, isn't it?
17:59:14 <ais523> which unfortunately doesn't fit neatly into most standard encodings
17:59:36 <ais523> probably you could encode it in 20 bits by moving some characters into the areas reserved for surrogates, on the basis that you don't need surrogates in such an encoding
17:59:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I have tried to tell the idiots this, but it doesn't appear to agree with what the Almighty SQA have decreed.
18:00:06 <ais523> looking at the Unicode character set, it does seem designed to be encoded via UTF-16 in particular, though, so it's not as silly as, say, claiming it's 8-bit
18:00:22 <ais523> (also, in some langs like Java, it's literally 16-bit, but that's arguably a problem with the language)
18:01:04 <Phantom_Hoover> It's hardly a Unicode character if you can't put an eighth of the codepoints into it
18:01:07 <ais523> the standard libraries support surrogates well enough
18:01:13 <ais523> but nobody bothers to test for them in their own code
18:01:23 <ais523> on the basis of how likely are you to find a Unicode character above 0xffff?
18:01:48 <ais523> thus, in practice, it's only the BMP that tends to work properly
18:01:56 <Phantom_Hoover> That kind of defeats the entire point of Unicode, doesn't it?
18:03:02 <ais523> depends on what you think the entire point of Unicode is
18:03:16 <ais523> if it's just "show these international characters that are likely to come up, and I need more than 128 of them", it works just fine
18:03:24 <ais523> and that's the /real/ reason people use Unicode
18:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> We are talking about the people who encoded the schwa and the upside-down e in the pan-Nigerian alphabet differently.
18:03:44 <Vorpal> <alise> ais523: Agreed, although I have no experience teaching first-time programming. <-- that has to be painful.
18:03:52 <ais523> most fonts don't even contain characters outside the first 65536
18:04:04 <ais523> Vorpal: it depends, some people are much better than others
18:04:10 <Ilari> Unicode has 1 112 030 valid codepoints. Bit more than 2^20...
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18:04:47 <ais523> presumably you're excluding surrogates from that?
18:05:02 <Ilari> Surrogates and those xFFFE's and xFFFF's.
18:05:04 <ais523> hmm, what if you exclude precombined characters like é that don't exist in the most general normal form?
18:05:16 <Vorpal> ais523, do you mean on the teacher or on the students?
18:05:17 <ais523> given that there's multiple ways to encode them
18:05:33 <ais523> ais523: both, but I was referring to the students
18:05:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, what about BOM?
18:05:47 <Ilari> BOM is valid character.
18:06:03 <ais523> Vorpal: besides, the difference is around 100000, 1 character won't make too much difference in that
18:06:20 <Ilari> The reason why FFFE isn't valid is that its the byteswap of BOM (and one wants to know which it is).
18:06:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Does using Mathematica as my calculator make me A Bad Person?
18:06:42 <Vorpal> ais523, well I had to endure such programming courses. Not that the teacher is bad, he is rather good. But the majority of the fellow students. Sigh
18:06:55 <Ilari> Actually, 63454...
18:07:42 <Vorpal> he seems do a good job even so. I know I could never manage teaching anyone who is not fairly accomplished already
18:08:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: maybe?
18:08:47 <alise> Vorpal: Hell, even in university I'm not going to enroll in any practical programming course.
18:08:51 <alise> That would just be painful.
18:08:55 <ais523> well, here I have the advantage that people have to actually qualify for the course somehow
18:09:03 <alise> With actual CS, the morons will drop out soon enough. :P
18:09:13 <ais523> alise: they're normally compulsory for any even remotely related degree
18:09:36 <ais523> e.g. here at Birmingham, they have an actual-CS and a practical-programming course running simultaneously in the first year for computer scientists
18:09:43 <ais523> and I help to teach the practical side
18:10:39 <ais523> at least they're honest about which-is-which, sort of
18:10:45 <alise> I'm trying to think of an related joke at the expense of Oxford now and I can't; knowing someone who goes to Oxford, my duty is to disparage it at every available opportunity.
18:10:49 <ais523> (the practical side is called "Software Workshop", which is almost content-free)
18:11:05 <ais523> (as in, the name, not the course)
18:11:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, incidentally, I think I can prove that the most general form of conservatism in a CA is undecidable.
18:11:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh joy.
18:12:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Consider two components separated by some ridiculously huge distance.
18:12:27 <alise> Main icon on the web page of Oxford's "Mathematics and Computer Science" course:
18:12:29 <alise> http://www.ox.ac.uk/images/hi_res/5768_Mathematics_and_Computer_Science.jpg
18:12:55 <alise> (for ais: It's a Playstation controller rendered in those "artistic" black-and-white dots.)
18:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The first will evolve such that one cell dies. The second is a TM which, if it halts, will give birth to a cell.
18:13:20 <alise> WHY DO THEY HAVE THAT ON THE PAGE OF THAT COURSE? That makes LESS THAN NO sense.
18:13:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure if that actually proves anything very interesting, though.
18:13:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Conservatism is only step-by-step, though.
18:13:49 <Gregor> alise: The Playstation is a computer :P
18:14:01 <alise> Gregor: And neither CS nor mathematics has anything to do with a computer! :P
18:14:08 <ais523> do they have a supercomputer made out of a Beowulf cluster of PS3s with non-upgraded firmware?
18:14:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That is, one generation to the next has to sustain the cell count. And each generation is computable.
18:14:19 <alise> ais523: even if they *did*, it's nothing to do with that course
18:14:46 <alise> Huh, the CS & Maths course has a higher successful applications rate than CS.
18:14:56 <alise> Although I guess the really stupid people don't bother applying for the former.
18:15:21 <alise> (I *must* come up with a disparaging joke, however much research it takes!)
18:15:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It totally is.
18:15:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The TM couldn't just kill a cell like that.
18:15:39 <Gregor> alise: People apply for CS with applications like "I like WARCRAFT so I wanna do CS"
18:15:39 <alise> That's the whole point.
18:16:01 <ais523> Gregor: here in the UK, you often get approved for courses by computer if your grades are good enough, as far as we can tell
18:16:03 <alise> Gregor: Although I can't imagine anyone writing literally that on an application to *Oxford* XD
18:16:14 <ais523> humans look at your cases in really competed courses, or for borderline students
18:16:22 <ais523> I'd imagine Oxford really does look at every application by hand, though
18:16:24 <Gregor> alise: Idonno, people are pretty stupid!
18:16:46 <Phantom_Hoover> If we have a spaceship, it must have cells born at the front and die at the back.
18:17:37 <alise> Gregor: "Dear kindly sirs, I wish you to be aware of the fact that I enjoy the game 'World of Warcraft' by Blizzard Entertainment, Inc.; accordingly, I wish to read Computer Science at your institution of learning. I believe my enjoyment of the world-wide networked, computerised recreational activity will increase my enjoyment of the course, leading to greater success. Sincerely, Albert Monogram III, Esq."
18:17:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So make it not causally separated? I dunno.
18:18:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Move cells around so they're in the right neighbourhood to kill them.
18:18:04 <alise> That's what I'd do.
18:18:09 <Gregor> "Albert Monogram III, Esq." is perhaps the greatest name ever.
18:18:22 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so basically swapping cells is the only operation.
18:18:50 <alise> <ais523> I'd imagine Oxford really does look at every application by hand, though ;; well, they probably have people just to discard all the junk they must get.
18:18:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Sure, I guess. :P
18:19:01 <ais523> alise: then that's someone else looking at them by hand
18:19:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: There's a bit more than that since you have the whole neighbourhood.
18:19:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Each 3x3 block of cells could rearrange.
18:19:16 <ais523> but the way the UK admissions system works, you don't apply to Oxford unless you mean it as you can only apply to 4 different universities
18:19:25 <ais523> and also, can't apply to Oxford and Cambridge simultaneously
18:19:43 <ais523> so people who don't really know what they're doing tend to pick 4 universities with low standards in the hope that one will accept them
18:19:58 <ais523> wow, I'm being cynical today
18:20:42 <alise> <ais523> and also, can't apply to Oxford and Cambridge simultaneously ;; haha, wow, really?
18:20:58 <ais523> AFAIR, although it was ages since I applied, now
18:21:34 <alise> my friend applied to Cambridge but got rejected and he's in Oxford now
18:21:39 <alise> how does that work, then?
18:21:58 <ais523> there's a second round, IIRC
18:22:07 <ais523> so it's not applying simultaneously
18:22:20 <ais523> I may be wrong, though, or it may have changed
18:27:30 <alise> "Less than 2% of websites on Scandinavia's child porn internet filter is actually child porn" ;; what a shocker.
18:27:46 <alise> lawl, boingboing headline -> reddit headline :: "Only 1.7%" -> "Less than 2%"
18:27:54 <alise> we redditors can't handle decimals
18:29:04 <alise> Less than 2%? That could be 0%!
18:29:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the kind of people thinking that would probably be more along the lines of "PEEDOS!!!!!!!! KILL THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
18:30:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I have it on unreliable hearsay that pædiatrics is now called child healthcare or somesuch.
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18:35:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUkt59vY1Q
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18:39:14 <Gregor> Less than 2%, that could be -100%
18:39:24 <alise> I was considering going negative, but my brain exploded.
18:39:35 <Gregor> That means it's 100% granny porn.
18:42:46 <fizzie> alise: For the Finnish blacklist, the guy who published (parts of) it got his site blacklisted, because "links to child porn == child porn"; also the list is secret. There's also no procedure for fixing any mistakes in the list, and the administrative court said being added on the list is not a "decision" and he has no right to complain. (Though recently the supreme administrative court said the administrative court actually has to handle his case. His site has
18:42:46 <fizzie> now been on the blacklist for about 2.5 years, so it's not exactly a quick process.)
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18:43:06 <alise> fizzie: Oh yes, that; you've linked it a few times. Twice, maybe.
18:43:46 <alise> fizzie: lawl your country is imperfect
18:43:53 <fizzie> Sounds likely. Well, it's still going on. Though I think rather few ISPs actually implement the blocking any more, and some of those that do make it an optional "service".
18:48:49 <Ilari> And those that do... Don't most implement it via DNS?
18:49:57 <fizzie> Ilari: I'm not sure... I think several switched away from the DNS blocking system, to avoid blocking whole sites instead of just particular URLs.
18:50:05 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: http://lapsiporno.info/english-2008-02-15.html has the English summary.
18:50:36 <fizzie> Choosing "childpornography.info" as the domain name was perhaps a bit provocative.
18:51:20 <fizzie> As I understand it, there's quite a lot of gay porn on the list.
18:52:00 * Gregor randomly slides back over to this window.
18:52:04 <Gregor> What's this about gay porn now?
18:52:17 <fizzie> Gregor: Are you sure you don't have a highlight for that?
18:52:39 <Gregor> I don't have a highlight for it, I just SENSE it when it is near.
18:53:35 <Gregor> So, in short, Finland blocks gay porn?
18:53:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, you should use tubular bells in your next work btw. That and bagpipe.
18:54:07 <fizzie> "If you do a google search for "gay porn", the first four hits are censored as child porn even though the sites contain no illegal images! Many have questioned if the police has something against gay porn, and this is something they simply aren't answering at all."
18:54:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, piano, tubular bells and bagpipe (Scottish I feel, Irish just isn't the same).
18:54:47 <Gregor> fizzie: Haha! The US is more progressive than you! FINLAND FAIL
18:55:02 <pikhq> As much as I dislike exploitation of children, I really don't feel that child porn itself should be illegal.
18:55:23 <Gregor> pikhq: Put that quote on Facebook then try to get a job! 8-D
18:55:34 <Ilari> That CP blocking is just security theater...
18:55:44 <pikhq> Making it, sure. But just having illegal images seems a bit too... urgh.
18:55:51 <alise> pikhq: The argument is that it economically supports the production of child porn.
18:56:05 <alise> pikhq: Of course, this is mostly irrelevant; if the *production* is illegal, you can crack down on it whenever.
18:56:26 <alise> And really, the demand is so huge enough that it's like saying that people shouldn't buy meat because then ANIMALS WILL STOP BEING KILLED!
18:56:52 <pikhq> And I am absolutely appaled that nude images of teenagers (especially self-taken ones) are considered the same in the eyes of the law as nude images of 5 year olds.
18:57:20 <fizzie> pikhq: It's also illegal to have, say, files like that in the cache of your email client, after opening (and subsequent deleting) of a spam message.
18:57:33 <pikhq> fizzie: Which is stunningly retarded.
18:58:11 <pikhq> fizzie: That, BTW, is one big reason why I don't think possession should itself be illegal -- pretty much any Internet-connected computer could likely have some. Especially ones without ad blocking.
18:58:32 <pikhq> There's also the room for blackmail -- "I stuck child porn on your computer and I won't tell you where".
18:59:02 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and the punishment for it (in the US, at least) is far too harsh, just like for all sex offenses.
18:59:30 <alise> It also makes Freenet almost certainly illegal.
18:59:40 <alise> Running it, that is.
18:59:44 <alise> Because you store child porn on your hard drive.
18:59:53 <alise> (No "if": child porn is like 90% of Freenet.)
19:00:25 <Gregor> Time to blow up all governments.
19:00:28 <Gregor> We need a fresh start :P
19:00:57 <pikhq> Gregor: Let's create the Übermensch!
19:01:49 <alise> Gregor: Indeed. May I propose a single people, united in a single nation, with a single leadership?
19:01:57 <Vorpal> time to put some competent people as part of the govts. Like experts in their fields. Before taking a decision they should be forced to let actual experts scrutinize the proposal.
19:02:12 <alise> <Vorpal> time to put some competent people as part of the govts. Like experts in their fields. Before taking a decision they should be forced to let actual experts scrutinize the proposal. ;; congratulations, you have discovered technocracy
19:02:20 <alise> Vorpal: New issue: whoops, your universities are suddenly corrupt as fuck!
19:02:22 <alise> How did that ever happen!
19:02:28 <alise> Gregor: Please just tell me you got that :<
19:03:06 <Gregor> alise: Yeah, just chose to make a different reference :P
19:03:19 <Vorpal> alise, hm... I didn't say they should be allowed to make the decisions. Just actually go through and point out issues like "caches and spam will make every computer contain illegal stuff if you do this"
19:03:19 <alise> pikhq: We should clearly base the new nation on gay science.
19:03:22 <pikhq> alise: How's about we find a benevolent dictator. And then make him immortal.
19:03:26 <alise> HURR REFERENCE ORGY
19:03:34 <Vorpal> alise, because most politicians certainly has no clue about that
19:03:59 <pikhq> Like, say. The Buddha. We shall make the Buddha dictator forever. :P
19:04:05 <alise> Vorpal: "Ah, yes, you cannot ban [abuse of academic system]. Because we say so." -- Profs who abuse academic system
19:04:16 <alise> pikhq: LAUGH DAMMIT LAUGH
19:04:29 <pikhq> Hmm. Tibet actually tried something similar to that, with its reincarnating government officials.
19:04:31 <alise> Vorpal: Giving people power --> those people abuse that power.
19:04:38 <alise> Giving geniuses power --> [ ]
19:04:41 <alise> Fill in the blank.
19:04:53 <Vorpal> alise, ah indeed that is an issue
19:04:55 <Gregor> I'm still waiting for a country which specifies that its official language is prescribed by a particular non-government agency to get couped by language-redefinition.
19:05:04 <pikhq> alise: Geniuses abuse that power TO MAKE GIANT SPACE-TRAVELLING ROBOTS
19:05:18 <Vorpal> alise, the current system isn't working well at all either. What about having to provide a rationale
19:05:26 <pikhq> Gregor: I don't know of any that do that.
19:05:38 <Gregor> pikhq: Well, we speak English :P
19:05:45 <Vorpal> not sure that would be enough
19:05:56 <pikhq> Gregor: The USA does not have an official language.
19:06:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I suppose a case could be made that at least geniuses will abuse it in a slightly less stupid fashion.
19:06:11 <Gregor> pikhq: The USA would not be the country in question :P
19:06:19 <alise> <pikhq> alise: Geniuses abuse that power TO MAKE GIANT SPACE-TRAVELLING ROBOTS ;; ITT: Entire plot of Ed stories
19:06:37 <Gregor> pikhq: A language which declares that it has an official language, that the laws of the country are in that language, and that that language has a regulating body (read: most countries) are at risk.
19:06:45 <alise> <Gregor> I'm still waiting for a country which specifies that its official language is prescribed by a particular non-government agency to get couped by language-redefinition. ;; marry me
19:06:45 <Gregor> s/A language/A country/
19:07:07 <alise> Gregor: Does l'Académie française count?
19:07:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm, only about france has a regulating body like that
19:07:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: Many languages have regulating bodies, actually.
19:07:28 <alise> I mean, I assume it would be ruled that the legislature of France is written in the French language as defined by l'Académie française.
19:07:33 <alise> (Should that l' be capitalised?)
19:07:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, not with the same power as in France at least
19:07:53 <Gregor> Vorpal: Swedish is regulated by the Swedish Language Council, which has "semi-official status" but is not a government agency.
19:08:01 <alise> Gregor: Of course, it's not actually *law*, I imagine, so couping (TOTALLY A WORD) L'Académie française would have no real effect.
19:08:15 <alise> (I MUST KNOW WHETHER THE L' NEEDS TO BE CAPITALISED)
19:08:24 <Vorpal> Gregor, indeed, and it is not perscriptive, but descriptive afaik?
19:08:41 <Gregor> "The council asserts control over the language through the publication of various books with recommendations ..." - Wikipedia
19:08:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, most I can remember seeing from that is "best practise" or such. No definite normative rules
19:09:23 <alise> *prescriptive, Vorpal.
19:09:27 <pikhq> Gregor: l'Académie française can only recommend.
19:09:42 <pikhq> It's prescriptive but not legally enforced.
19:09:54 <alise> Practise is the verb, practice is the noun. (Note: This is super, super anal)
19:09:55 <Gregor> "Legally enforced" is such a wuzzy issue.
19:10:23 <alise> l'Académie française has to be the most stuffy place in the world.
19:10:25 <pikhq> Gregor: They have absolutely no power over the actual language; the government is free to and sometimes *does* ignore their suggestions.
19:10:25 <Gregor> If the body is named in the law of a country in the context of that country's official and legal language, it's probably in a dangerous situation.
19:10:27 <alise> Imagine how they talk to each other.
19:10:51 <alise> "Did... did you just use a COLLOQUIALISM? SACREBLEU!" "Did... did you just say 'Sacrebleu'? DEAR GOD."
19:11:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Particularly with technical vocabulary; "email" is used instead of "courriel", for instance.
19:11:06 <Gregor> pikhq: OK, so it's not a good example then :P
19:11:33 <Gregor> But SO many countries have official languages, and SO many languages have regulating bodies, there must be one set up this way.
19:11:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, for the Swedish case I don't think anyone much cares about the council
19:11:43 <alise> pikhq: What's the non-e version of "courriel"?
19:12:07 <pikhq> Gregor: Vatican City.
19:12:14 <alise> "As French culture has come under increasing pressure with the widespread availability of English media, the Académie has tried to prevent the Anglicization of the French language. For example, the Académie has recommended, with mixed success, that some loanwords from English (such as walkman, software and email) be avoided, in favour of words derived from French (baladeur, logiciel, and courriel respectively)."
19:12:38 <alise> "My logiciel doesn't work! I'll send it to you by courriel. In the meantime, I'll listen to music on my baladeur."
19:12:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, it's a bit like "Svenska akademin", about the only thing they do these days is to decide who get the Nobel price in literature. The whole thing is absurd. Like pays for holding posts in it was specified way back and hasn't been upgraded iirc.
19:12:49 <alise> Gregor: Taking over Vatican City: MOST POINTLESS THING EVER
19:12:58 <pikhq> Gregor: You could also do it with mainland China -- they define the semantics of the Chinese characters.
19:13:03 <Vorpal> oh wait, they make a dictionary too
19:13:15 <pikhq> Gregor: *And ban ones they haven't defined.*
19:13:19 <alise> LET US TAKE OVER THE VATICAN CITY AND CHINA
19:13:29 <Gregor> China would be a good prize X-P
19:14:01 <alise> Gregor: I propose we create new Vatican City legislation that demands that some Catholic sin must be committed every day.
19:14:13 <Gregor> You just need to change one character which is used to say that the relevant institute is the authority on language, to instead say that it's the authority on all laws and regulations.
19:14:19 <alise> Orgies, envyfests...
19:14:20 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:14:36 <pikhq> Also Israel. The Academy of the Hebrew Language defines Hebrew.
19:14:42 <Gregor> Come now (no pun intended), it's time for the daily Holy See orgy!
19:14:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, if it was me I would make the law such that it depends on the version of the language in use when the legislation was written
19:15:08 <Gregor> Vorpal: Only in hindsight!
19:15:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: Only KNOWING my evil plan X-P
19:15:22 <alise> Gregor: SUFFER THE LITTLE CHILDREN ON TO ME
19:15:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's the British solution.
19:15:32 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Then we use its TOTALLY-AMBIGUOUS NUCLEAR CAPABILITY to take over everything else.
19:15:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, no. If I ever was put in a position to come up with a law about the language
19:15:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: THEY HAVE LAWS IN ANGLO-NORMAN FOR GODS SAKE
19:15:58 <alise> Vorpal: Dude, are you really that bad at introspecting your previous mind-states?
19:16:00 <Vorpal> however it had not occurred to me to consider this before
19:16:02 <alise> You would *not* have thought of that beforehand.
19:16:32 <Vorpal> alise, well it seems obvious, should check the legislation into a dvcs of course
19:16:45 <Vorpal> and then you get that for free with some care
19:17:07 <Vorpal> (yes yes, that statement is absurd, intentionally so)
19:17:46 <alise> [[In 1778, the Académie attempted to compile a "historical dictionary" of the French language. The project was later abandoned, having failed to progress beyond the letter "A".]]
19:18:41 <alise> IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE:
19:19:03 <alise> [[In 1778, the Académie attempted to compile a "historical dictionary" of the French language. The project never progressed beyond the letter "A", but was declared the official version of the language. French died out three weeks later.]]
19:20:23 <pikhq> Hmm. The EU has official languages but doesn't define how one determines what those official languages are.
19:20:37 <pikhq> (that is, it says "French" is an official language but doesn't define "French")
19:20:50 <pikhq> This is apparently a common setup for official languages.
19:22:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm you can't define a language completely in itself I suspect
19:22:47 <coppro> crap, something is wrong with mah function but I doesn't know what :(
19:22:54 <pikhq> One could simply define the language and thereby subvert the semantics of things.
19:23:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, but you could do a more formal definition. :)
19:23:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, or rather you can define a language in itself. But then you could get different stuff out by starting with different initial sets on the "first parse"
19:23:59 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: I had to implement a deletion algorithm for a binary search tree. I think I got it (without looking at a reference, even) but I seem to be failing all the submission tests
19:24:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Define it in Latin, then.
19:24:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, how do you define to syntax used to do the formal definition
19:24:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, and how do you define latin?
19:24:36 <pikhq> The official language of the Roman Empire, circa 0 AD.
19:24:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, if you need to have Latin defined for you, you clearly aren't EDUCATED.
19:24:52 <coppro> looks like I need to come up with more evil test cases, which I can do but will take more work
19:25:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, I now define AD to be relative today. And "Roman Empire" to mean the country known as Sweden
19:25:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, get around that :P
19:25:40 <pikhq> OK, then. We start by importing the definition of Lojban.
19:25:57 <coppro> oh, and I have to do it with a tiny subset of scheme
19:28:18 <alise> <Vorpal> pikhq, hm you can't define a language completely in itself I suspect ;; French should be defined in Latin!
19:28:49 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, well, I'm not sure if the Latin we actually *use* is from 0 AD.
19:29:06 <alise> <Vorpal> pikhq, hm you can't define a language completely in itself I suspect ;; well, it's just finding a solution to L = interpret L's definition in L
19:29:09 <pikhq> Classic Latin has changed very little since then.
19:29:14 <alise> but yeah, that has infinite solutions, obvs
19:29:38 <pikhq> Though the pronunciation used has changed rather notably.
19:29:41 <alise> pikhq: easy way to define Lojban --
19:29:50 <alise> put the lojban parser on it
19:29:54 <alise> put a magic lojban-interpreter on it
19:29:57 <alise> define that to be lojban
19:30:01 <pikhq> It helps that Classical Latin was the conservative, prestige language, rather than the vernacular.
19:30:01 <alise> can't dispute atoms!
19:31:15 <Vorpal> <alise> but yeah, that has infinite solutions, obvs <-- as I pointed out
19:31:16 <alise> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Parens&curid=3444&diff=18961&oldid=18954 Uh oh, zzo38 is turning everything into his crazy literate programming in MediaWiki templates thing.
19:31:19 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, what about pretentious people who say 'v' as 'w' and always harden 'c's?
19:31:26 <alise> Vorpal: you supposed some "initial language", which isn't true
19:31:31 <alise> as there's interpretations all the way down
19:31:43 <alise> there are just infinite consistent solutions to the equations
19:32:03 <Vorpal> alise, "initial language" is just to avoid endless recursion. This could be L. But it could also be any other
19:32:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do people actually do that? :-P
19:32:08 <Vorpal> any of the infinite solutions
19:32:24 <alise> Vorpal: The whole point of a self-definition is that it's "endless recursion", which is not necessarily an impossible thing in mathematics.
19:32:32 <alise> You're looking at this from a computational point of view, which is very silly.
19:32:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wery silly, Cecil.
19:33:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Is that how you pronounce "Very silly, Cecil"?
19:33:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Somehow I don't believe you.
19:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> My textbook appropriately indicates vowel lengths, as well.
19:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> But that's actually necessary to distinguish some word endings.
19:34:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, do you pronounce "Very silly, Cecil" as "Wery silly, Kekil" *in English*???
19:35:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The last one is correct. 'V' as 'w' is bizarre.
19:35:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I would naturally pronounce "veni vidi vici" as "waynee, weedee, weekee", though.
19:36:11 <pikhq> Yes, hard "c" is correct.
19:36:24 <pikhq> Oh, and consonantal v/u as /w/ is also correct.
19:37:19 <pikhq> I thought it was, and discovered I was wrong.
19:38:04 <pikhq> Also, m or n after a vowel and before a consonant makes the vowel nasal, rather than being a seperate consonant.
19:38:12 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> I would naturally pronounce "veni vidi vici" as "waynee, weedee, weekee", though. ;; That is the most ineffectual way of saying that ever.
19:38:36 <alise> Isn't the real sound actually in between v and w?
19:39:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It's /w/ in the IPA, i.e. exactly what you'd expect 'w' to be.
19:39:31 <pikhq> alise: Except that that phrase would've been said using Church Latin.
19:39:34 <alise> [x] rarely means English "x" in IPA, but okay :P
19:39:40 <pikhq> alise: Which sounds more like what you'd expect.
19:39:50 <alise> pikhq: *Ecclesiastical Latin, stupid uneducated filth!
19:39:53 <alise> CAN YOU NOT HANDLE BIG WORDS
19:40:27 <pikhq> (namely, it's Latin with Italian phonology)
19:40:28 <alise> Note: these are the defaults as defined at compile time.
19:40:28 <alise> /build/buildd/fortune-mod-1.99.1/debian/tmp/usr/share/games/fortunes
19:40:28 <alise> Directory for innoffensive fortunes.
19:40:28 <alise> /build/buildd/fortune-mod-1.99.1/debian/tmp/usr/share/games/for‐
19:40:31 <alise> Directory for offensive fortunes.
19:40:34 <Gregor> The Latin Jesus spoke before learning English (which, being good enough for Jesus, must be good enough for Texas)
19:41:02 <alise> Hmm, there are binary .dat files in there.
19:41:10 <alise> The %-separated version is much nicer.
19:41:18 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC "magnus" should be pronounced "mangnus", but I don't think many people bother with that.
19:41:32 <alise> A hypothetical paradox:
19:41:32 <alise> What would happen in a battle between an Enterprise security team,
19:41:32 <alise> who always get killed soon after appearing, and a squad of Imperial
19:41:32 <alise> Stormtroopers, who can't hit the broad side of a planet?
19:41:33 <pikhq> Gregor: Curiously, it's at least *plausible* that Jesus would've known some Latin.
19:41:54 <alise> pikhq: For some value of "plausible" assuming that historical Jesus ever even existed. :P
19:42:30 <pikhq> alise: The existence of a man named "Jesus" born at 0AD is not in question. But, then, the existence of a man named "Jesus" born at 1990AD in Mexico is not in question.
19:42:48 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ fortune foo
19:42:48 <alise> fortune:/home/ehird/foo not a fortune file or directory
19:42:54 <alise> That totally has the right format!
19:43:00 <alise> pikhq: You know what I meant by historical Jesus, foo. :P
19:43:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, don't you have to give it the magic strings file?
19:43:21 <alise> (i.e. "a guy named Jesus born near 0 AD who did something or other related to a cult and the Jews didn't like him".)
19:43:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I DON'T WANT TO
19:43:33 <alise> I like the %-separated format perfectly well!
19:43:52 <alise> /build/buildd/fortune-mod-1.99.1/debian/tmp/usr/share/games/fortunes
19:43:52 <alise> Directory for innoffensive fortunes.
19:44:00 <alise> COULD THESE TWO LINES BE ANY MORE WRONG
19:44:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, what's the magic strings file?
19:44:12 <oerjan> pikhq: um "veni vidi vici" is supposedly a julius caesar quote, hardly church latin
19:44:15 <alise> I assumed you meant .dat
19:44:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, IIRC you need to use the strings command to tell it where everything starts and ends.
19:45:02 <alise> Self-modifying "Ultimate bf instruction minimalization!". Discuss.
19:46:16 <alise> Bah, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ultimate_bf_instruction_minimalization! is cheating; it has NOP.
19:46:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wut.
19:46:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it's a random access file.
19:46:41 <alise> I want inefficient fortunes!
19:46:55 <alise> Doesn't even spit out to stdout on default, sheesh.
19:47:04 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ strfile -c '%' /dev/stdout foo | cat -v
19:47:31 <alise> -x Note that each alphabetic character in the groups of lines is
19:47:31 <alise> rotated 13 positions in a simple caesar cypher. This option
19:47:31 <alise> causes the STR_ROTATED bit in the header str_flags field to be
19:47:31 <alise> set. Note that it does not rotate the strings--that operation
19:47:31 <alise> must be performed separately.
19:47:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No I'm not.
19:48:04 <alise> I want it to spit out to stdout, instead of foo.dat.
19:48:30 <alise> Not in the official directories it sure isn't.
19:48:54 <alise> ehird@dinky:/usr/share/games/fortunes$ head -1 definitions | cat -v
19:48:54 <alise> 17th Rule of Friendship:
19:48:55 <alise> ehird@dinky:/usr/share/games/fortunes$ head -1 definitions.dat | cat -v
19:48:55 <alise> ^@^@^@^B^@^@^DM-2^@^@^Hb^@^@^@
19:49:02 <alise> Should I set the flag to randomise access to the fortunes in strfile?
19:49:09 <alise> -r Randomize access to the strings. Entries in the offset table
19:49:09 <alise> will be randomly ordered. This option causes the STR_RANDOM bit
19:49:09 <alise> in the header str_flags field to be set. (And really does ran‐
19:49:20 <oerjan> alise: innoffensive are words that are so offensive you cannot even say them in a (very shabby) inn
19:49:51 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ strfile -rc '%' foo /dev/stdout 2>/dev/null | fortune /dev/stdin
19:49:51 <alise> fortune:/dev/stdin not a fortune file or directory
19:49:51 <alise> fortune:/dev/stdin not a fortune file or directory
19:50:30 <alise> fortune foo.dat doesn't work either.
19:50:34 <alise> You LIED to me, Phantom_Hoover! LIED!
19:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> You need to actually give it the database of stuff, I think.
19:50:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It can't just be given a random-access table and work out where the fortunes are!
19:51:20 <Vorpal> I just considered how to say various words in a completely unambiguous way
19:51:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Because the table says *where the strings are in the file*, not where the file *actually is*.
19:52:00 <Vorpal> people -> "human inhabitants of the planets commonly referred to as Earth by a tiny percentage of the native intelligent life forms"
19:52:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume fortune takes the name of the file, adds ".dat", then picks a random entry from the table and reads that from the file you gave it
19:52:14 <Vorpal> probably not unambiguous
19:52:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I hate life.
19:52:41 <Vorpal> which shows it is rather tricky
19:53:01 <alise> Vorpal: Erm, all intelligent life forms that call Earth anything call it Earth.
19:53:10 <alise> I very much doubt dolphins have a word for "Earth".
19:53:15 <Vorpal> alise, no. Swdes call it "Jorden"
19:53:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But it's a bit of a rubbish one!
19:53:19 <Vorpal> Chinese something else
19:53:27 <alise> Vorpal: English still has a pretty large marketshare, dude.
19:53:30 <Phantom_Hoover> foo has the %-separated entries for the file. foo.dat says where those entries start and end.
19:53:37 <Vorpal> alise, hm, not as first language
19:53:37 <alise> Hardly a tiny percentage.
19:53:40 <Vorpal> as second language yes
19:53:46 <alise> Vorpal: Even as a first language.
19:53:54 <alise> s/that line/oblivion/
19:54:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: BAH
19:54:03 <Vorpal> alise, iirc there are more people speaking Chinese as first language. And Spanish too
19:54:17 <oerjan> dolphins would probably call it something meaning "Ocean" instead
19:54:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I just wanted to use fortune to display ~pithy quotes~ on my hypothetical website to show I'm cool and Unixy!
19:54:24 <Phantom_Hoover> WITHOUT scanning through the file each time you call fortune.
19:54:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, or something completely different
19:54:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's great, but there is not a Chinese language.
19:54:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'd probably just scan through the file each time you call fortune.
19:54:35 <alise> They're not *huge* or anything.
19:54:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: There is a Chinese language family.
19:55:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, I just go on the official statistics here. Go fix them in that case.
19:55:02 <pikhq> Much like there is not a Romantic language, but a Romantic language family.
19:55:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: The official statistics are about on par with Japan's WWII claim that Korean was a dialect of Japanese.
19:56:06 <pikhq> Or their claim that Okinawan is a dialect of Japanese.
19:56:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that
19:56:22 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, vs. the sensible solution of simply *caching where the entries start and end*.
19:56:27 <pikhq> Okinawan is a Japonic language spoken in Okinawa.
19:56:27 <alise> Vorpal: are you basically dismissing pikhq's perfectly valid fact as irrelevant because most people believe it?
19:56:32 <alise> `addquote <Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that
19:56:46 <Vorpal> alise, um how is that funny?
19:56:50 <HackEgo> 231|<Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that
19:56:56 <alise> Vorpal: It's funny because you're an idiot and can't use Google.
19:57:11 <alise> Gregor: Please defuse any revert wars before they happen. You can add a quote about my poor ancestry if you so desire.
19:57:13 <Vorpal> alise, why would I google. ais wouldn't either
19:57:20 <alise> ais wouldn't ask a stupid question, either
19:57:26 <pikhq> In Japanese, the language is "okinawago", in Okinawan, it's "uchinaaguchi".
19:57:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's a waste of time and a pain for creators of fortune files.
19:57:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So BAH
19:57:52 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> I CANNOT BE BOTHERED REFERENCING ANYTHING MYSELF BUT OTHER PEOPLE SHOULD
19:58:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, there's still no reason why it has to be a binary format.
19:58:07 * Vorpal refuses to feed the trolls :P
19:58:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, *it is a tiny command which runs almost instantly*.
19:58:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, there's still no reason why it has to be a binary format.
19:58:50 <alise> plain text files are the official unix way
19:58:58 <alise> for everything that can possibly be plain text
19:59:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: But saying "Chinese language" is a sign of complete ignorance.
19:59:41 <pikhq> Up there with thinking there's an African language.
19:59:49 <alise> pikhq: IT'S NOT IGNORANCE BECAUSE IT'S POPULAR
19:59:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The .dat file simply says where the strings start. It has literally no other information.
20:00:13 <pikhq> (hint for morons: Afrikaans is only spoken in South Africa, and is not the sole language, but just a lingua franca)
20:00:36 <oerjan> pikhq: at least okinawan is in the same language family, isn't it
20:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, honestly, how can they run a country with no common language?
20:00:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 8 bytes of decimal digits, followed by newlines.
20:01:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: fseek to a random number in the file size * 9. Read 8 digits. atoi. fseek in text file. Print.
20:01:20 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: What, China?
20:01:33 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, honestly, how can they run a country with no common language? ;; Swizzterland!
20:01:35 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: *sigh*
20:01:44 <alise> pikhq: I say, I say, that's a joke, son.
20:01:55 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, it is in the same language family.
20:02:03 <alise> Switzerland: The only country whose name is in Latin for the sole reason that nobody in Switzerland speaks Latin.
20:02:24 <alise> You see, if it was in German, French, Italian or Romansh, which people actually speak in Switzerland, then everyone else in Switzerland would complain.
20:02:29 <pikhq> oerjan: On the Ryūkyūan branch rather than the Japanese branch, though.
20:02:34 <alise> So they picked a language that nobody speaks. Like UTC's impossible acronym!
20:02:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Universal Time Coordinated"
20:03:06 <alise> "Universel Temps Coordonné".
20:03:07 <pikhq> oerjan: Also, it is believed by some that Korean and Japanese are distantly related -- as members of the Altaic language family. This, though, is controversial.
20:03:12 <alise> The actual name in English: "Coordinated Universal Time"
20:03:18 <alise> The actual name in French: "Temps Universel Coordonné"
20:03:31 <alise> The solution: Instead of CUT or TUC, use UTC, which expands correctly in *neither* language.
20:04:24 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Colambda zzo has managed to make Unlambda imperative.
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20:05:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: About Colambda? :)
20:05:14 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, and Okinawan & Japanese are about as close as German and English.
20:08:01 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:09:00 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/RegexPL
20:10:51 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, incidentally, how goes the graph-based language?
20:12:00 <Phantom_Hoover> How long will it be until we rewrite the article on the wire-crossing problem to reflect the fact that it's so poorly defined as to be pointless.
20:14:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: about 36.4 eons
20:16:21 <alise> oerjan: but eon 8 ended the world!
20:16:29 <alise> (^ Can you remember minor internet scares from years ago? No? GTFO)
20:16:55 <oerjan> no i'm too old to remember such things. YKGOML!
20:18:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, so we shall suffer from people speculating on a question that has never been meaningful forever?
20:21:57 <oerjan> ...when did you last see much speculation on it, really...
20:22:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps this is the cause of the recent decline in graph-based esolangs!
20:22:49 <alise> can someone kindly tell zzo38 not to edit pages on the wiki just to add little file headers for his crazy literate programming via MediaWiki templates system?
20:23:24 <Phantom_Hoover> A graph-based esolang in which only planar graphs are allowed would be rather cool, though.
20:23:40 <alise> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Parens&diff=prev&oldid=18961
20:23:41 <alise> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=UBFIM_interpreter&diff=prev&oldid=18778
20:24:04 <oerjan> alise: he _clearly_ invited you to discuss the change on the Talk:Parens page
20:24:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there an algorithm for determining if a given graph is nonplanar, though? IIRC there's a longstanding question over the matter.
20:24:27 <alise> oerjan: well, yes, but knowing zzo38 that'd only apply to [[Parens]], not [[UBFIM interpreter]]
20:24:38 <alise> oerjan: also, I have no idea about how to go about convincing zzo38 of something
20:26:20 <alise> Well, I've never seen him change his mind.
20:27:45 <Vorpal> <alise> (^ Can you remember minor internet scares from years ago? No? GTFO) <-- can you remember the y2k scare?
20:27:58 <Vorpal> that one was major though
20:28:11 <alise> Maybe. Dunno if I was paying attention to that stuff when I was 4-5.
20:28:36 <Vorpal> alise, my point exactly :P
20:28:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes there is an algorithm, it is supposedly polynomially decidable
20:29:19 <oerjan> something about checking if K_3,3 or K_5 graphs are minors
20:31:11 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planar_graph
20:32:17 <oerjan> "In practice, it is difficult to use Kuratowski's criterion to quickly decide whether a given graph is planar. However, there exist fast algorithms for this problem: for a graph with n vertices, it is possible to determine in time O(n) (linear time) whether the graph may be planar or not (see planarity testing)."
20:34:47 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planarity_testing
21:12:21 <alise> "Nasty is a program that helps you to recover the passphrase of your PGP or GPG-key in case you forget or lost it. It is mostly a proof-of-concept: with a different implementation this program could be at least 100x faster."
21:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone tell me the most absurdly inappropriate use of Comic Sans you've ever seen!
21:12:30 <alise> http://www.vanheusden.com/nasty/
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21:30:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: By a wide, wide margin: http://www.unix.org/
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21:31:16 <Gregor> Isn't that just outstanding?
21:31:24 <Phantom_Hoover> My current example is a request for information on a murder, but that comes a close second.
21:31:37 <alise_> The Brainfucked Lone Wolf is a space combat game completely written by hand in brainfuck (i.e. no translating tool or the like was used).
21:31:37 <alise_> http://www.49-6-dev.net/tblwen.htm
21:32:12 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Really? The fact that, aside from how absurd it is, Comic Sans is a MICROSOFT font doesn't push mine over the top?
21:32:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, OK, I'll mention that when stating its history.
21:33:11 <Gregor> What are you writing that you need this information? :P
21:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I picked "Comic Sans: A Sad Indictment of Our Times" as a subject.
21:33:52 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: See also the top-left of http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/MyCubicle.jpg
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21:34:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, nice to see you hold an appropriate appreciation for the diæresis.
21:35:35 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: In fact, while you're also also seeing that, see also http://spamusers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13387&start=0#p248512
21:35:39 <Gregor> An extremely epic response to that.
21:35:55 -!- alise_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:36:54 -!- alise_ has joined.
21:38:08 <Gregor> To ruin your day and all X-P
21:38:43 -!- alise__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:39:07 <Gregor> Isn't it funny how I'm a font of Comic-Sans-related information? X-P
21:41:09 <Phantom_Hoover> So what do I say to people who say it's more readable.
21:41:34 <Phantom_Hoover> There are studies and such that support that assertion.
21:41:37 <Gregor> How about "...?!?!?!?!?!"
21:42:03 <Gregor> Or, you suggest they use http://codu.org/gregor_handwriting.ttf
21:42:03 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Say that perhaps it is more readable than Arial or Times New Roman with close-together lines, bad use of whitespace, and other typographical mishaps.
21:42:11 <alise_> But it is certainly worse than a well-typeset work.
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21:43:07 <Gregor> LyX is LaTeX for pussies.
21:43:10 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: LaTeX, bitch.
21:43:15 <Gregor> Real men vim their LaTeX.
21:43:41 <Gregor> alise_: (Guesses that's an IDE) IDEs are for pussies.
21:43:42 <alise_> That's okay because you only have to know like 5 commands to write a paper on Comic Sans.
21:43:59 <alise_> Gregor: It's an Emacs mode for LaTeX.
21:44:10 <Gregor> alise_: Emacs is just vim for pussies.
21:44:14 <alise_> It spits out its own weird format that is LaTeX written entirely in LyX library commands.
21:44:46 <alise_> Gregor: vim is just an editor designed with ergonomics and HCI in mind for pussies.
21:44:47 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: An IDE for LaTeX is like an IDE for C++; you still write LaTeX, it just gives you some help. LyX is a WYSIWYG editor for LaTeX. So, y'know, difference *shrugs*
21:44:58 <alise_> Gregor: OH SNAP NOW NONE OF US CAN RETORT
21:45:47 <Gregor> I'm trying to think of a sentence ending in "for pussies" but utilizing the dual meaning to change the topic, but I can't.
21:45:56 <Gregor> Triple meaning, really.
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21:49:48 <oerjan> Gregor: lolcode is for pussies
21:51:24 -!- alise__ has set topic: Are the mating habits of quarks really the subject of ephemeral ontologists? Or would they be more suited discussing http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D?.
21:51:38 -!- alise__ has set topic: Are the mating habits of quarks really the subject of ephemeral ontologists? Or would they be more wealthy discussing http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D?.
21:51:55 <alise__> <coppro> pussies are for dicks ;; HOW DO YOU KNOW I WASN'T MAKING A LESBIAN JOKE
21:52:01 <alise__> (I was actually just trying to set that one up.)
21:52:21 <Phantom_Hoover> [[In July 2010, Ascender Corp introduced new versions titled Comic Sans 2010. This included two new fonts: Italic and Bold Italic. The Comic Sans 2010 fonts were designed by Terrance Weinzierl and Steve Matteson and include extensive OpenType typographic features.[2]]] KILL ME NOW
21:52:28 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Yes that thing!
21:52:32 <alise__> I mentioned that earlier. <3
21:54:34 <Phantom_Hoover> God why do I have to be so scrupulously accurate even with this?
21:55:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I _just looked up Microsoft Bob_ to make sure I was using the correct term for it
21:56:33 <Sgeo> Oot, italicized comic sans
21:56:47 <Sgeo> ^^^the above is not to be taken seriously
21:56:57 * Sgeo still goes into hiding
21:59:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, with wordart style shadow!
21:59:27 <Vorpal> oh god, what sort of typographical monster did I just create
22:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember when WordArt was the height of graphical design in our school.
22:04:50 -!- impomatic has joined.
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22:08:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: if you're an ultra-nerd you _might_ use plain tex instead
22:08:22 <alise__> [[Please, spam pages, such as Payday Loans, are not welcome here. The purpose of this wiki is not for advertising companies, but rather for discussing esoteric programming languages. If you make similarly unconstructive contributions in future, you may be blocked. --ais523 20:58, 30 September 2010 (UTC)]]
22:08:40 <alise__> we don't know if only he does
22:08:42 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: no, at least one other does.
22:08:48 <alise__> and one guy whose site i forget
22:09:00 <Vorpal> I guess Knuth can be excused
22:09:07 <alise__> excused, there's nothing wrong with it
22:09:15 <alise__> it's just crazy to not use latex when you're doing exactly what latex does :)
22:09:26 <alise__> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/CornstarchCymatics_cc.jpg aieeee
22:09:43 <Vorpal> alise__, thus excused from the crazyness. Because he designed it and thus knows it well
22:09:52 <Vorpal> probably better than he knows LaTeX
22:10:02 <Vorpal> while the guy who created LaTeX probaly will use it
22:10:15 <impomatic> Did someone suggest a cool URL to me a couple of weeks ago for a new programming games site?
22:10:18 <Vorpal> <alise__> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/CornstarchCymatics_cc.jpg aieeee <-- what is it?
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22:10:52 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Lamport
22:11:14 <alise__> Vorpal: cornstarch/water mix (oobleck) with a sine wave
22:11:24 <alise__> producing OH GOD IT'S SCARY
22:11:45 <Vorpal> alise__, I assume the effect would vary depending on the shape of the container?
22:11:53 <alise__> i've mucked around with oobleck before and it's fun except
22:11:56 <Vorpal> due to getting different standing waves and such
22:11:57 <alise__> if you leave it on your hands
22:12:42 <oerjan> "A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't even know existed can render your own computer unusable."
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22:13:15 <alise__> it stops going very liquidy after a while
22:13:48 <Vorpal> alise__, dries quickly?
22:14:03 <alise__> Vorpal: before that, if you hit it it resists
22:14:06 <alise__> but if you sink your hands in
22:14:20 <Vorpal> alise__, ah yeah the wonders of non-newtonian fluids
22:14:22 <alise__> fun, but gets boring quickly
22:14:50 <alise__> ketchup is non-newtonian, how crazy is that?!
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22:15:19 <Vorpal> alise__, I seem to have had a case of "synchronicity" with regards to the phrase "Non-Newtonian fluid" the last few weeks. Seen it in various contexts. More more than normal.
22:15:22 <alise__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Newtonian_fluid#Summary
22:15:23 <Vorpal> oh well, such things happen
22:15:30 <Vorpal> always a bit jarring though
22:15:31 <alise__> Vorpal: baader-meinhof, probably
22:15:36 <alise__> you see it once, your brain starts thinking about it
22:15:44 <alise__> pays attention to "non-newtonian fluid" more than it otherwise would
22:15:47 <alise__> makes you think it's more common
22:15:58 <alise__> ofc, it may have also gained attention somewhere and rippled through the internet
22:16:01 <Vorpal> alise__, I actually seen the words several times before the last few weeks, just not as often
22:16:02 <alise__> hard to detect these things
22:16:18 <Vorpal> alise__, or just pure chance
22:18:53 <Vorpal> alise__, did I tell you about the SSID/encryption coincidence?
22:19:02 <Vorpal> alise__, I don't remember if you was in the channel back then
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22:19:21 <alise__> I'm sure it's enthralling.
22:20:23 <Vorpal> alise__, okay. Do you know about encfs?
22:20:46 <Vorpal> alise__, fuse thingy, encrypts files, not a volume
22:20:51 <Vorpal> including encrypting filenames
22:21:35 <Vorpal> alise__, well I use a random SSID for my wlan. [0-9A-Za-z_-]+ basically. It happened I set up an encrypted encfs volume. I looked at the folder where it stored the encrypted files. With Encrypted file names
22:21:48 <Vorpal> alise__, one of the filenames matched my SSID for the first 11 chars
22:21:59 <Vorpal> alise__, that seems extremely unlikely
22:22:08 <Vorpal> alise__, yes but look at the phase space
22:22:20 <Vorpal> alise__, the filenames are base64 as far as I can tell
22:22:26 <alise__> And as we all know, anything below a certain probability is impossible.
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22:22:57 <Vorpal> alise__, just rather improbable. Had it been hex for both I wouldn't have been surprised. But the range is a lot larger
22:23:12 <Vorpal> alise__, and you don't need to try to troll me :P
22:23:21 -!- alise__ has changed nick to alise.
22:24:08 <Vorpal> alise, ais found it rather unlikely iirc when I mentioned it (he was here then)
22:24:16 <alise> Of course it's unlikely.
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22:24:35 <Vorpal> alise, so why those sarcastic remarks :P
22:25:19 <alise> That's just how I rôle.
22:25:28 <Vorpal> It isn't often you run into such coincidences. Just because it is bound to happen sooner or later doesn't mean you shouldn't marvel at it when it does.
22:26:00 <Vorpal> alise, whats with the ^ ?
22:28:24 <alise> Vorpal: It's correct.
22:29:07 <alise> Although rôle is (much) more obscure than café is.
22:29:20 <alise> It was a pun on "That's just how I roll", so I decided to make it as silly as possible.
22:29:59 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. Took a few seconds to figure out (due to the phrase you just mentioned coming to mind)
22:30:15 <alise> <alise__> That's unbareable.
22:30:30 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't notice that one
22:30:38 <Vorpal> alise, I read it as "unbearable"
22:31:16 <Vorpal> No definitions were found for unbareable. and yet "About 20,200 results (0.14 seconds) "
22:31:28 <Vorpal> a lot of typos it seems
22:33:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, context? Computers?
22:33:42 <Vorpal> Original Equipment Manufacture
22:34:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "Original Equipment Manufacturer"
22:34:50 <Sgeo> That that copy of Windows is for OEMs
22:34:55 <Vorpal> I don't remember, selling conditions
22:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, so it's to be packaged with hardware made by other companies?
22:35:37 <Sgeo> Preinstalled Windows, basically
22:38:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: pretty much
22:38:55 <alise> Dell installs OEM Windows 95 on their computers
22:42:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's actually oklopol's notation, bastardising the true minus-greater-than sequence into a Unicode whore.
22:42:22 <alise> But -> is the direction of you walking out of the channel.
22:42:27 <alise> You can't walk to sleep. Sleep isn't a place.
22:42:35 <alise> You walk outside the IRC window, which is defined to be to the right.
22:42:38 <alise> Sorry to say but Vorpal has it right here.
22:43:18 <fizzie> The OEM license is also notable for (at least attempting to be) non-transferable; you're not supposed to install it on any other computer than the one it "comes with".
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22:51:35 <alise> pikhq: Gregor: What's that crazy meta-OS you guys are doing?
22:52:12 <pikhq> If by "doing" you mean "not doing".
22:52:18 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, Gregor, did you get that VFS sorted out or have you just abandoned it?
22:52:47 <alise> It's totally a ripoff of my idea of user-space POSIX.
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22:54:52 <Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit!
22:55:27 <alise> ...wow I didn't even realise that until I said it.
22:55:33 <alise> My stupidity is... palatable.
22:55:45 <alise> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
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22:56:52 <HackEgo> 232|<Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
22:57:26 <HackEgo> 34|SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
22:57:35 <HackEgo> 127|<Ami> Discrimination fields ACTIVATE.
22:57:40 <HackEgo> 116|<Dylan> s/Hebrew/senile/
22:57:46 <HackEgo> 216|<fungot> alise: so parrot was based around gcc?
22:57:59 <HackEgo> 232|<Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
22:58:05 <HackEgo> 52|<ehird> Apple = Windows.
22:58:16 <HackEgo> 53|<oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
22:58:23 <HackEgo> 72|<ehird> ignore me, i'm full of bullshit
22:58:39 <HackEgo> 104|<AnMaster> I'm 100% of what sort of magic was involved in it
22:58:45 <HackEgo> 154|<fax> sekuoir: that's just gay sex <sekuoir> I am learning though!
22:58:45 <HackEgo> 91|<oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
23:04:22 -!- cybergirl has joined.
23:04:57 <alise> I wonder how many billions of men have used the nick "cybergirl".
23:05:49 <HackEgo> 84|<Warrigal> Porn. <Warrigal> There, see?
23:05:52 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:05:55 -!- impomatic has left (?).
23:05:56 <HackEgo> 158|<Warrigal> Darn, now I can't acknowledge the reference you were making.
23:07:05 <HackEgo> 206|<nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok
23:07:08 <HackEgo> 115|<coppro> hmm... does anyone know a nonsense game designed for the mentally handicapped involving yelling
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23:07:27 <alise> We scared away the cyber girl! Oh no!
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23:39:58 <nooga> i like stoner rock
23:40:35 <Sgeo> What are OpenBSD's security concerns with hybrid IPv4/IPv6 stack?
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23:53:26 * Sgeo worships 192.88.99.1
23:55:15 <Sgeo> There is a typo in 192.88.99.1's whois info
23:58:47 <nooga> who's 192.88.99.1 ?