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00:40:46 <alise> <nooga> i like stoner rock
00:40:48 <alise> SO HORRIBLE, TO LIKE
00:46:37 <Ilari> Wasn't that address (192.88.99.1) the global IPv4 anycast of 6to4 gateways?
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01:10:12 <alise> heh, BytePusher runs at 3.93 MHz
01:12:08 <alise> cool, bytepusher uses C as an assembler XD
01:17:16 <alise> Gregor: It has a little header of C code that defines some stuff like jmp() and lbl().
01:17:25 <alise> Then it has loops to automate the generation of tedious code.
01:17:31 <alise> And it all gets spat out to a .BytePusher file.
01:17:35 <Gregor> I'm confused by what the 4MHz number has to do with the C-as-asm statement.
01:17:43 <alise> I was just looking at BytePusher.
01:19:27 <alise> it's common in minimalist riscs to have a skip-if-condition and a single unconditional jump instruction rather than conditional jumps, right?
01:20:44 <nooga> i wonder if one could mimic try ... catch ... finally in C
01:21:16 <oerjan> try ... fail ... give up
01:21:19 <alise> Gregor: you mean have an extra conditional in each instruction?
01:21:20 <nooga> using clever macros
01:21:26 <alise> but means every instruction could branch
01:21:26 <Gregor> nooga: A few wonky macros, no problem.
01:21:28 <alise> which is sort of ~not fun~
01:21:34 <alise> nooga: yes, it's been done
01:21:42 <alise> Gregor: hmm, does it do anything fancy?
01:22:02 <Gregor> alise: Almost always the condition is just used on branch instructions, but ANY instruction can be conditional.
01:22:10 <alise> "try and catch in C", fourth freaking result
01:22:18 <alise> Gregor: That must fuck everything up.
01:22:34 <alise> Gregor: Also, that's a pretty CISC thing to do, isn't it?
01:22:45 <alise> MIPS is cooler anyway :P
01:22:45 <Gregor> alise: ARM isn't really RISC :P
01:22:59 <Gregor> MIPS just has conditional branches.
01:23:41 <alise> Gregor: what's the point of condition flags and the like? are they faster than registers? i've forgotten
01:23:53 <alise> or is it just to avoid legislating a format for booleans :P
01:23:56 <Gregor> I'm not architectury enough to answer that.
01:25:52 * alise wonders if "eq d,a,b" should leave d alone if a =/= b, or set it to zero
01:25:54 <alise> the former, I think
01:26:02 <alise> you can always zero it beforehand
01:26:50 <alise> Gregor: all these registers are so bloated compared to OISCs >_>
01:26:59 <alise> The PDP-8 only had 8 instructions, and it was CISC! :P
01:30:21 <Ilari> Sgeo: BTW, how much you get from test-IPv6 tests? :-)
01:38:27 <alise> LD r1, r1; LD r2, r2; EQ r3, r1, r2; SNZ r3; JMP end; ... end:
01:38:31 <Sgeo> I just found out about it from Wikipedia
01:38:34 <alise> That's an awfully long series of instructions for if (*x==*y)
01:39:54 <Ilari> I get 10/10 for both dual stack and v6 only tests... :-)
01:39:59 <alise> Modern top-down programming is tested rigorously at every step even before the full design has completed; unfinished components are filled in by stubs so that the program can be tested. ...So top-down programming has turned into a freaky version of bottom-up programming. Lovely!
01:40:16 <alise> Ilari: If only anyone else did so you could put it to use >:)
01:44:22 <alise> 07:15:05 <fizzie> And dbc's ascii-art.
01:44:30 <alise> [suddenly, dbc talks]
01:44:40 <alise> 07:15:32 <fizzie> I think there was in... not more than five years ago.
01:47:25 <dbc> I don't talk much.
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01:55:41 <alise> dbc: You're so predictable, talking when someone says you're not going to talk.
01:55:52 <alise> dbc: In fact, I bet you don't say something very soon.
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02:15:01 <Gregor> Somebody needs to write an OISC backend for GCC.
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02:34:45 <Gregor> And binutils I spose ..
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05:17:26 <coppro> what's wrong with this picture (hint, 4 things): 00:16 < Oleg_> I have a question. What C++ code for unicode would correspond to ANSCII value 129?
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05:19:25 <Sgeo> Wait, n.. oh, still
05:19:54 <Sgeo> was thinking the 129, but then thought it was acceptable, but then that's some extended junk, right?
05:19:56 <lament> 129, "code for unicode", and Oleg
05:20:05 <Sgeo> "C++" has nothing to do with anything
05:21:19 <coppro> my 4 were: ANSCII, 129, "C++ code for unicode" twice; once for assuming C++ has any unicode support, twice for asking for a "code for unicode"
05:21:59 <Sgeo> As far as the C++ thing goes, I just saw it as "Well, the question should fundamentally be language-independent"
05:22:01 <lament> also you shouldn't use the nick Oleg unless you're really smart
05:24:20 <lament> coppro: because the real Oleg is the person who owns this site http://okmij.org/ftp/
05:25:37 <coppro> that's quite impressive
05:25:45 <coppro> incidentally, I think I'm insane
05:26:07 <coppro> I'm considering trying to gun for a triple major and a minor
05:40:09 <Gregor> With those majors in some things borderline-useful?
05:40:17 <Gregor> Or are we talking philosophy, linguistics and psychology?
05:43:36 <pikhq> Gregor: Linguistics is borderline-useful. Keep in mind that you put it into application rather often. ;)
05:44:26 <Gregor> I guess by "borderline-useful" I mean "puts food on the table"
05:44:46 <Gregor> Linguistics can only do that paired with something actually useful (e.g. CS)
05:45:00 <pikhq> Unless you're in academics.
05:45:12 <pikhq> In which case it doesn't matter you could be studying basket weaving.
05:46:01 <pikhq> And psychology is something like 3/4ths bullshit, due to lack of knowledge.
05:46:11 <pikhq> Philosophy? Formal study of bullshit.
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05:46:30 <pikhq> Which makes it both useless and astoundingly fascinating at the same time.
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05:55:39 <Gregor> ALSO pikhq: Go read the Fythe spec dammit!
05:56:45 <Gregor> (The first bit I actually added some text to that is)
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06:02:24 <Rugxulo> welp, haven't been here in a while
06:04:15 <Rugxulo> probably missed something interesting ... oh well (not going to read hundreds of old logs, even if it has only been like two or three months, heh)
06:07:42 <Rugxulo> okay, I'll just say it, I know it's lame to most of you, but I did port my Befunge-93 interpreter to Modula-2, and I (optionally) crammed its source into less than 80x25 (w/ example too)
06:08:14 <Rugxulo> crappy, crazy, useless but whatever ... tada! ;-)
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06:19:55 <coppro> things I want: candies that taste like vitamin C pills but do not give indigestion
06:23:57 <coppro> I mean like exactly the same
06:24:14 <Rugxulo> I just meant why complicate it? just eat an orange ;-)
06:25:37 <coppro> because it does not taste the same
06:26:05 <Rugxulo> close enough, plus it's easily available and has vitamin C
06:26:19 <Rugxulo> and probably cheaper too (hopefully)
06:27:29 <coppro> b) I don't want vitamin C. The problem is the damned pills give you indigestion if you have too many
06:28:13 <coppro> because they are yummy
06:28:34 <Rugxulo> well your stomach doesn't, obviously, so you have to compromise
06:29:51 <coppro> Sgeo: you're an expert at not working. help me stop
06:47:42 <lament> i think philosophy is pretty cool
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14:01:41 <Slereah> Is it about a middle aged woman who discovers the internet
14:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortunately, I saw the trailer for it immediately before watching Inception, which erased the horror from my mind for at least a month.
14:01:46 <Slereah> Because that is basically facebook
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16:01:52 <alise> 21:17:26 <coppro> what's wrong with this picture (hint, 4 things): 00:16 < Oleg_> I have a question. What C++ code for unicode would correspond to ANSCII value 129?
16:02:02 <alise> "code for unicode", esp. supposing unicode is a charset
16:02:10 <alise> 129 is outside of ASCII
16:02:31 <alise> prolly "C++ code for [meant to be charset]" and thinking "unicode" is a charset is two things
16:03:20 <Phantom_Hoover> An immensely annoying number of people think the ASCII is 8-bit.
16:03:30 <alise> 21:46:11 <pikhq> Philosophy? Formal study of bullshit.
16:03:34 <alise> my philosophy-studying friend can confirm this :)
16:03:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: lawl "the ASCII" :)
16:03:58 <alise> 22:19:55 <coppro> things I want: candies that taste like vitamin C pills but do not give indigestion
16:04:07 <alise> multivitamins: stupid
16:04:09 <alise> their taste: AWESOME
16:08:20 <Gregor> You can just chug citric acid.
16:09:31 <Gregor> The American Standard Code for I[something] Interchange?
16:09:43 <Gregor> Hahaha you said "The"!
16:10:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I was waiting for someone to notice that I say that, actually.
16:10:56 <Gregor> Well, people on Internet tend to add or remove the word "the" indiscriminately.
16:10:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It occurred to me one day and I haven't been able to stop since.
16:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect that I shall now end up talking about the TCP and the UTF-8.
16:12:03 <Gregor> The transfer control "TCP" protocol.
16:12:21 <Gregor> Dern, /transmissions/ control.
16:12:36 <Gregor> Dern, /transmission/ control (where'd that plural come from :P )
16:13:06 <alise> If I get a Ph.D. and change my name to Iliad, I'll be Dr. I. Hird, or, backwards, Dr. I. Hird.
16:13:10 <alise> I have a new life goal.
16:13:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You do realise that acronyms aren't really their expansions?
16:13:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Why not change your last name to whatever ais' middle one is.
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16:13:52 <alise> That's why RAS syndrome is a stupid complaint/.
16:13:59 <alise> "HURR HE SAID ATM MACHINE"
16:14:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ian?
16:14:06 <alise> Because Ian is a crappy name!
16:14:11 <alise> Maybe Imhotep. I would become invisible.
16:14:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Scottish names are good atmaking the English mispronounce them.
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17:01:53 <Gregor> Well, nobody likes the English.
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17:05:52 <Gregor> The English LEAST of all.
17:06:00 <Gregor> Nobody hates the English more than the English.
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17:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> In the same vein, HP Lovecraft was a dedicated Anglophile.
17:11:19 <alise> "I know that astrology isn't a science," said Gail. "Of course it isn't. It's just an arbitrary set of rules like chess or tennis or, what's that strange thing you British play?"
17:11:19 <alise> "Er, cricket? Self-loathing?"
17:13:01 <alise> (Next line: ""Parliamentary democracy. The rules just kind of got there. They don't make any kind of sense except in terms of themselves. But when you start to exercise those rules, all sorts of processes start to happen and you start to find out all sorts of stuff about people. [...]")
17:15:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And it left us with "...And Another Thing".
17:15:33 <alise> A work of fanfiction so unsatisfactory as an entry in the H2G2 trilogy, it makes me want to write a better one.
17:16:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it is an excellent imitation of Douglas' style. But it's ... frozen, somehow, a stereotype rather than a homage.
17:16:29 <alise> And while it's a decent book, it's a bad H2G2 book.
17:16:35 <alise> Rename the characters, republish, good book.
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17:25:17 <Sgeo> I think the only reason my singing sounded bad was because it wasn't in-sync with the music underneath
17:25:24 <Sgeo> I think raw singing by itself should be ok
17:29:52 <Phantom_Hoover> The tone was all wrong, the voice was annoying and the timing wasn't just desynced, it was completely wrong.
17:31:29 <Sgeo> But those things, in and of itself, shouldn't be grating
17:32:54 <alise> Sgeo: *You* *cannot* *sing*
17:33:01 <alise> It is as simple as that, my friend.
17:33:28 <Sgeo> So when I'm bored at a bus stop, I should try to avoid vocalizing whatever song's floating through my head?
17:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot sing either. I realise this, and I avoid singing at all costs.
17:34:29 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conservapedia.com/Obamageddon THIS WORKS EVEN BETTER WITH AN ATHEIST NON-RHOTIC ACCENT
17:34:42 <alise> <Sgeo> So when I'm bored at a bus stop, I should try to avoid vocalizing whatever song's floating through my head? ;; oh god yes
17:35:08 <Sgeo> Can I at least hum?
17:35:44 * alise listens to your thing again juts to make sure
17:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> DO NOT ATTEMPT TO MAKE ANY FORM OF TUNE WITH YOUR LUNGS
17:36:12 <alise> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/unknownsongs.wav ;; yeah don't hum dude :{
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17:36:22 <Sgeo> alise, that's not humming
17:37:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i need a link :{
17:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/paint_it_black_karaoke.ogg
17:38:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm actually fairly desensitised to Sgeo's voice by now.
17:38:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Postcode, weaknesses?
17:38:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Is their weakness GUNS?
17:38:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I seem to infuriate him, though, so that's one attack strategy.
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18:12:08 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO MAKE ANY FORM OF TUNE WITH YOUR LUNGS // /me tries to figure out a way to make a tune with his lungs that isn't singing, beat-boxing or otherwise producing sound via the vocal chords, mouth, tongue, teeth and lips.
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18:13:58 <Gregor> I guess you can just breathe in and out while using your chest as a percussive instrument.
18:36:54 <alise> Gregor: Extract your lungs, stretch them, bang as percussive instrument.
18:37:00 <alise> You may need a lung transplant first.
18:59:00 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, incidentally, if you wanted to wipe out the area in which the guy with the voice more annoying than Sgeo's in it, don't bother
18:59:41 <alise> I was just going to wipe out him.
19:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> My description would be something along the lines of nasal and lisping, as well as so camp that when he walks into a room the average Kinsey rating rises by at least a point.
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19:01:14 <Gregor> Did you actually post a link to said guy's voice?
19:01:40 <Gregor> Or are we just to take your word for it?
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19:01:55 <Gregor> I'M THE ONLY GR NOW YAY
19:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I don't exactly whip out a dictaphone when talking to people.
19:02:32 <alise> "But I do whip out my dic--" "Excuse me, sir."
19:02:51 <Gregor> I whip out my dick and dictaphone when talking to people.
19:02:57 <Gregor> As they're the same instrument.
19:03:00 <alise> OH JUST DESTROY THE SUBTLETY THANKS GREGOR
19:03:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I've already got enough notoriety at my school for carefully spreading misinformation as to the reason for my departure from the previous one
19:03:27 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Blew it up?
19:03:36 <alise> When you said "instrument", I thought "dick solo", which just... yeah, this channel now officially has no class.
19:03:57 <Gregor> Rhapsody in Pink for Penis and Vagina
19:04:11 <Gregor> That joke was almost too stupid to be said.
19:04:17 <alise> Gregor: Organ In A Minor
19:05:26 <Gregor> Does LaTeX have a BNF package that isn't made of suck?
19:06:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Please, please elaborate on how it was sort of true.
19:07:16 <alise> Why ... did you assault someone ... with a spoon ...
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19:25:31 <pikhq> Well, that was fun. Finally heard a piece on the classical station here that I was familiar with that *wasn't* a listener request.
19:25:43 <pikhq> ... Because I have performed said piece.
19:27:10 <pikhq> (for some reason, when the station's open to requests, everyone requests things that just about everyone has heard. Find me someone who hasn't heard "Dance of the Sugarplum Fairy" and I'll show you someone who was born deaf.)
19:29:58 <alise> pikhq: Dial in and request The Black Eyed Peas' "My Humps".
19:30:34 <pikhq> alise: I doubt they'd have it. It's a classical station.
19:30:41 <alise> pikhq: I say, I say, that's a joke, son.
19:30:42 <fizzie> The pinnacle of all music: canyon.mid. (That thing which came with win3.1 multimedia thingies, possibly 9x and later too.)
19:30:46 <pikhq> However, I *could* request 4'33".
19:31:06 <alise> Request 59"59', the little-known sequel to 4'33".
19:34:03 <Gregor> fizzie: IIRC, canyon.mid was actually pretty darn awesome :P
19:34:29 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIW4F285QjA
19:34:44 <Gregor> pikhq: Anecdote you just reminded me of:
19:34:48 <alise> PLAY IT ON AN MT-32
19:35:01 <Gregor> A friend of mine and I like to play "guess-that-composer" when there's something we don't recognize playing.
19:35:06 <Gregor> But we both suck at it, so instead we choose letters.
19:35:15 <Gregor> One person gets to choose 'B', and the other person chooses two other letters.
19:35:26 <Gregor> If either letter is the first letter of the last name of the composer, that person wins.
19:35:33 <Gregor> But that's not the anecdote :P
19:36:03 <Gregor> The anecdote is that we were playing that game when something we couldn't identify came on. It was clearly Beethoven, but it obviously wasn't because we would have recognized it.
19:36:21 <Gregor> So we were debating who would have written in such a distinctively-German early Romantic style other than Beethoven.
19:36:45 <Vorpal> <Gregor> One person gets to choose 'B', and the other person chooses two other letters. <-- why B specifically?
19:37:01 <Gregor> Finally, he took 'B', and I took 'R' and 'S'. For Ravel, which has been known to do some very weird stuff, Sibelius and Saint-Sans.
19:37:10 <Gregor> Vorpal: Because every famous composer is named with a 'B'
19:37:21 <Gregor> I joked "I guess I've got Rimsky-Korsakov too!"
19:37:37 <Gregor> Because it was such an absurd notion that something so distinctively early-Romantic German would be Rimsky-Korsakov.
19:37:54 <Gregor> Suffice it to say: Listen to Rimsky-Korsakov's third symphony some time. It is an interesting experience. I won that game :P
19:37:56 <alise> <Gregor> Vorpal: Because every famous composer is named with a 'B' ;; Bmozart
19:38:01 <Vorpal> Gregor, Like Bozart and Bivaldi?
19:38:14 <Vorpal> alise, argh you beat me to it
19:38:24 <alise> I wonder how Bmozart is pronounced
19:38:37 <alise> I think "bm" is like the pn pneumatic, except with b instead of p and m instead of n.
19:38:41 <Gregor> Like Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Bizet, Borodin, Balakirev, ...
19:38:47 <fizzie> Bibelius, the more bookish cousin of Sibelius.
19:39:09 <Gregor> You people have absolutely no understanding of hyperbole.
19:39:18 <alise> Gregor: I do, I'm just being silly.
19:39:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, Bayden, Bändel, Bebussy...
19:39:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, you are completely right!
19:40:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, don't forget Erik Batie.
19:41:11 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that the only composers the average person will name is: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart.
19:41:27 <fizzie> And George Bone, composer of canyon.mid. (Okay, okay, Stone.)
19:41:31 <pikhq> If you're *lucky*, throw Tchaikovsky in there, too.
19:41:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, Maybe Vivaldi or Brahms. Not both though
19:41:48 <Gregor> pikhq: Brahms can make it sometimes.
19:42:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Gregor: Pieces, maybe. Composer, hahahah no.
19:43:17 <pikhq> Still not going to hear Brahms *named*.
19:43:21 <alise> Erik Satie is wonderful.
19:43:50 <alise> pikhq: *Bchaikovsky
19:44:00 <alise> Pronunciation left as an exercise to the reader.
19:44:12 <fizzie> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmallReferencePools says Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, and then quite a list of individual works.
19:44:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, if it comes to listening tests, people will probably recognize stuff by completely different composers than those.
19:44:27 <pikhq> fizzie: That's about right.
19:44:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, I'm just mentioning composers with name recognition.
19:44:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: Pieces, of course, you'll have things all over the place.
19:45:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, I have done a few tests myself, and Grieg's "I bergakungens sal" (iirc "In the hall of the mountain king" in English) is quite widely recognized, though no one seems to know it's name
19:45:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trip_Through_the_Grand_Canyon
19:46:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: Tchaikovsky getting a lot of recognition -- pretty sure Swan Lake, Nutcracker, and 1812 Overture will be instantly recognised (if at the right parts).
19:47:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm the right parts of Carmen even more so. Hardly anyone knows who Bizet was though.
19:47:41 <pikhq> Also, anything that was in Looney Tunes.
19:47:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, but for actual works I think Vivaldi's Spring (first movement) comes very near the top
19:48:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, most people can even identify it as "Spring" in my experience.
19:48:28 <pikhq> Which was in Looney Tunes, IIRC.
19:48:28 <alise> pikhq: Anyone who has ever played Loom has Swan Lake branded onto their heads.
19:48:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, unlike with "In the hall of the mountain king", which no one has a clue what it is named
19:48:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: Doesn't the mountain-kingity also exist as an example multimedia file in some Windows versions?
19:48:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have no idea
19:49:11 <alise> I wonder if "In the Court of the Crimson King" is a reference to that.
19:49:47 <Vorpal> alise, it isn't exactly an un-obvious name.
19:50:11 <alise> Vorpal: No, but... King Crimson *did* basically take rock, strip away the blues, and put in a whole lot of classical into it.
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19:50:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, googling indicates it's a video game
19:50:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: a wonderful lucas arts adventure game
19:50:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, it did the same to me
19:50:48 <alise> music is all lovely midi renditions of Swan Lake
19:50:50 <impomatic> Does anyone know when Kerim Aydin invented BF Joust? I suspect it was January 2009
19:50:56 <alise> and the gameplay is music-based
19:50:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://help.lockergnome.com/windows2/Windows-95-Sample-Media-Files--ftopict482130.html -- second post lists the win95 files, and it indeed is there, and also the Bach/Beethoven/Mozart trinity.
19:51:10 <alise> (you "weave" spells by playing little snippets of music)
19:52:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: it predates the wiki
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19:52:13 <alise> impomatic: I can grep my Agora emails.
19:52:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: RIFF-encapsulated MIDI.
19:52:19 <alise> impomatic: Also, he goes by "G.".
19:52:32 <pikhq> “An unfortunate truth is that for the vast majority of people, the only music that matters is the music that was recorded from about five years after they were born until today. Everything else is to be considered "boring old farts' music" and not worth exploring.”
19:52:37 <pikhq> This... Is depressing.
19:53:09 <alise> pikhq: I listen to oldish music :<
19:53:10 <pikhq> I don't even like most of the musical genres popular during my lifetime!
19:53:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: What .wavs and .avis are; a generic tagged-block metaformat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Interchange_File_Format
19:53:23 <Vorpal> alise, you alone do not make up the majority of people :P
19:53:32 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
19:53:32 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
19:53:51 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
19:54:20 <EgoBot> Avast, world! We'll keel-haul ye!
19:54:24 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
19:54:44 <EgoBot> Was "Avast, world! Shiver me timbers!" special-cased?
19:55:11 <fizzie> !pirate who does nothing. (A tvtrope name.)
19:55:12 <EgoBot> who does nothing. And swab the deck! (A tvtrope name. Pass the grog!)
19:55:13 <alise> impomatic: "braincorefckwars", 2008-12-18. "BF Joust" first mentioned same day. Submissions solicited and announcement of working tournament runner, 2008-12-19.
19:55:21 <alise> impomatic: All posts by G. .
19:55:27 <alise> (How does one end a sentence with "G."?)
19:56:12 <Phantom_Hoover_> Incidentally, I just ended up going on an almost circuitous path through TV Tropes!
19:56:37 <alise> impomatic: First draft of Agoran contest posted 2008-12-20, contest begins officially a few days later.
19:58:19 <impomatic> Thanks alise. Just adding something brief to the programming games wiki.
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20:11:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Help! I'm running into a cyclic goal error!
20:11:28 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:11:50 <ais523> is me joining the channel that devastating?
20:12:00 <ais523> or is it just a case of context slipping away due to extenuating factors?
20:12:51 <alise> Actually just the latter.
20:19:02 <Vorpal> alise, cyclic goal error with what?
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20:32:43 <alise> Specifically, I can't figure out a language to write it in, which leads to me mentally constructing a brand new one, and then when I think "ok, I should write this down", I want leaden.
20:34:45 <olsner> "leaden", is that a language I've heard about?
20:35:23 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:35:37 -!- Harpyon has joined.
20:38:20 <alise> it is an editor you've heard about, i think
20:38:43 <olsner> ah, right, I probably have
20:38:47 <olsner> recognize the name at least
20:41:35 <Vorpal> alise, how do you plan to avoid disk trashing situations with the orthogonal persistence in aliseos?
20:42:13 <Vorpal> alise, interesting, do you have anything specific in mind?
20:42:20 <alise> the reason Mitosis exists is so that i can get this stuff wrong so many times i must inevitably hit upon the right solution eventually :)
20:42:39 <alise> Vorpal: well, we'll all be using SSDs at least by the time it's ready.
20:42:52 <alise> and if their lifespan increases, which it should...
20:43:15 <alise> Vorpal: plus only persisting every N time, of course
20:43:16 <Vorpal> alise, it wasn't that that I had in mind
20:43:23 <Vorpal> alise, rather, something similar to swap trashing
20:43:39 <Vorpal> alise, even SSDs are not as fast as main memory
20:43:41 <alise> i don't see the relevance to the persistence system?
20:44:03 <alise> you mean taking an awful lot of time just to persist?
20:45:13 <Vorpal> presumably you will persist application state? And you have one big virtual address. The application is not aware of the ram/disk distinction
20:45:31 <alise> Everything will be persisted. More or less. I'm not even entirely sure that temporary variables won't be.
20:45:33 <Vorpal> alise, so it can't know how large the "ram" is
20:45:45 <alise> Vorpal: There's a magical third address space that both RAM and disk map to.
20:45:57 <Vorpal> alise, so it can't try to make a ram/speed tradeoff. Some programs do that even today
20:45:59 <alise> RAM with paging, disk with a tree structure.
20:46:21 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah, well, some. The idea of course is that the OS is sufficiently intelligent to prioritise the right bits of data.
20:47:04 <alise> Vorpal: But... I don't see why you can't get at the amount of physical RAM in the system.
20:47:13 <alise> With swapping, even modern systems make this fuzzy.
20:47:14 <Vorpal> alise, well... yeah, but that doesn't help making a good memory/speed tradeoff really. If you select different algorithms or different algorithm parameters based on how much ram there is. Since you can't do that any longer.
20:47:27 <alise> Vorpal: In general, a running application won't be on disk, anyway.
20:47:40 <alise> Vorpal: Because that's pretty much the worst-case scenario.
20:48:02 <alise> Indeed almost by definition it won't be; if you're accessing it and competition isn't harsh, it's going to be in RAM for a while.
20:49:15 <impomatic> Work in progress -> http://programminggames.org
20:49:22 <Vorpal> alise, anyway there are even applications that try to adapt to cpu cache size. I know I seen that somewhere recently, but I don't remember where.
20:49:37 <Vorpal> iirc it was pretty relevant there too
20:49:39 <alise> I want to live in the Republic of Cascadia.
20:49:51 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_(independence_movement)
20:50:07 <alise> Vorpal: British Columbia + Oregon + Washington + sometimes northern California.
20:50:18 <alise> The United States of Sanity
20:50:48 <Vorpal> why the name "Cascadia"?
20:51:06 <Vorpal> (I'm a bit impaired in browser using atm, due to being extremely close to swap trashing)
20:52:50 <alise> Vorpal: Seems it's the name given to the general area by history.
20:53:29 <alise> impomatic: ASP.NET, interesting platform choice ...
20:54:04 <impomatic> alise: it's just what comes with my webhost :-)
20:54:47 <impomatic> I needed a wiki that uses a flat file (SQL costs extra) and they had a one click install for Screwturn.
20:55:53 <pikhq> impomatic: That's incredibly shitty.
20:56:13 <Vorpal> a Xen based VPS isn't that expensive. (OpenVZ-based VPSes tends to suck, I don't know whyl)
20:56:23 <impomatic> It's the cheapest I could find with unlimited sites / bandwidth
20:56:53 <alise> impomatic: unlimited bandwidth is a marketing lie
20:56:54 <Vorpal> um, you don't need unlimited bw. As for sites? Again VPS wouldn't limit you in that
20:56:57 <alise> it is, literally, never true
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20:57:12 <pikhq> alise: Unless you've got a peering relationship.
20:57:13 <alise> Vorpal: otoh, i wouldn't recommend a vps to someone unfamiliar with unix administration.
20:57:25 <alise> but there are better hosts even then.
20:57:27 <pikhq> In which case you have an astounding server room. :)
20:57:33 <Vorpal> alise, I tend to go for pay for bw rate, rather than transfer per month
20:57:58 <Vorpal> at least when I can't predict how much it will use per month
20:58:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:58:10 <alise> "An easy to understand price schedule: $4/month per account, and $1/month for every 64MiB ram. Please note; this means all plans come with $4/month worth of support." --prgmr.com
20:58:16 <Vorpal> rather slow site than one stopping working after 20 days
20:58:21 <alise> So customer-friendly!
20:58:36 <alise> Vorpal: the nice thing with a lot of VPS hosters is that they have no hard bandwidth limits.
20:58:51 <alise> instead just slapping you hard when you get slashdotted twice in a month :)
20:58:55 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. Strangely enough dedi and colo tends to have more stringent limits
21:00:23 <Vorpal> also fuck g++, it is so slow (sure point to clang, but only post 2.7, and this project isn't large enough that building last llvm and clang trunk and then using that would be faster, those are C++ themselves so...)
21:00:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: C++ is pretty inherently slow.
21:00:47 <alise> clang++ 2.7 compiles quite a bit :p
21:01:01 <pikhq> Do you realise how *much* you have to parse per file that uses the STL?
21:02:42 <Vorpal> and how fun, after compiling with -O0 -g it no longer segfaults.... And with -O1 -g it is pretty useless, just lots of value optimized out
21:07:19 <alise> yeah gcc's optimisation is pretty buggy
21:07:42 <Vorpal> alise, hard to know who is to blame here
21:08:17 <Vorpal> alise, this program is one I expect to have problems with anything but 32-bit x86 linux in general. It has a history of that
21:08:32 <Vorpal> and even then, not the most stable one
21:09:35 <alise> still, if -O1 ever breaks and -O0 doesn't... it should only happen on *really* fucked up code
21:10:08 <Vorpal> alise, could very well be in this case. Half the comments and function names are in German though, so a bit hard to know what is going on in general
21:10:41 <Vorpal> alise, also extremely helpful parameter names:
21:10:43 <Vorpal> 0x000000000061c5ba in display_fb_internal (xp=<value optimized out>, yp=<value optimized out>, w=<value optimized out>, h=1, color=<value optimized out>,
21:10:43 <Vorpal> dirty=<value optimized out>, cL=0, cR=704, cT=0, cB=560)
21:11:08 <alise> i probably wouldn't change that tbh
21:11:14 <alise> xp/yp are obviously coordinate-related
21:11:20 <alise> w and h are common names for width and height
21:11:23 <Vorpal> the local variable lp though?
21:11:30 <alise> dirty is probably some flag or something
21:11:31 <Vorpal> it crashes on something involving that
21:11:35 <alise> <Vorpal> 0x000000000061c5ba in display_fb_internal (xp=<value optimized out>, yp=<value optimized out>, w=<value optimized out>, h=1, color=<value optimized out>,
21:11:35 <alise> <Vorpal> dirty=<value optimized out>, cL=0, cR=704, cT=0, cB=560)
21:11:50 <Vorpal> alise, yes indeed, but there is a local variable in addition
21:12:01 <Vorpal> alise, and it is optimised out
21:12:49 <Vorpal> lets see if this recompile helps (turned of -DNDEBUG which was hidden deep in a makefile)
21:12:59 <Vorpal> might help catch something in advance of the issue
21:13:18 <Vorpal> aargh, now it segfaults there with -O0 too!
21:13:29 <ais523> Vorpal: that probably means there's actually a bug
21:13:34 <Vorpal> wait, "$1 = <value optimized out>"
21:13:50 * Vorpal goes looking at the makefile machinery
21:13:56 <ais523> I've seen all sorts of craziness in debug output
21:14:02 <ais523> gdb seems to struggle when there's a lot of data on the stack
21:14:32 <alise> ais523: Bah, {{deletedpage}} is a perfectly good salt, it saved you work :P
21:14:49 <ais523> alise: it's not salting unless the page is actually protected
21:14:57 <Vorpal> makefile has basically this: "if DEBUG < 2 && !NDEBUG, add -O1"
21:15:35 <Vorpal> ais523, what are you talking about?
21:15:52 <alise> ais523: true, I was just thinking that it'd either be protected or deleted very soon, so it either helps someone know it should be deleted or saves them a post-protection step
21:15:54 <Vorpal> ais523, yes but what specifically are you referring to on it
21:16:03 <alise> Vorpal: see recent changes.
21:16:06 <ais523> alise: note that spambots won't even /read/ a message saying that a page can't be edited...
21:16:17 <ais523> but I see what you mean, you're saving me having to write {{deletedpage}} myself
21:16:27 <ais523> I suppose I care more about instantaneous correctness of admin templates than you do
21:16:55 <Vorpal> alise, what did the deleted page contain?
21:16:57 <alise> ais523: well, it's you we're talking about, admin actions are as instantaneous as it gets
21:17:16 <ais523> alise: I'm not always online
21:17:25 <alise> ais523: maybe we need {{deletedpage}} to only show if the page is protected, somehow :)
21:17:47 <ais523> but then you could just put it on every page
21:18:10 <ais523> ofc, deletedpage is doubly deprecated nowadays on Wikipedia, which has moved on many versions since
21:18:18 <ais523> in recent MediaWiki, you can just protect a page even if it doesn't exist
21:18:44 <Vorpal> <ais523> ofc, deletedpage is doubly deprecated nowadays on Wikipedia, which has moved on many versions since <-- doubly?
21:19:05 <ais523> Vorpal: cascading protection works better than {{deletedpage}}, but less well than doing it properly
21:19:05 <Vorpal> ais523, hm are we running outdated mediawiki?
21:19:21 <ais523> we were running /really/ outdated mediawiki before last time graue was persuaded to upgrade
21:19:28 <ais523> and I think he only did it for compatibility with a better spam filter
21:19:37 <alise> we're running march 2007 mediawiki, i think
21:19:41 <alise> unless the main page is out of date
21:19:49 <alise> Vorpal: there aren't any serious bugs as far as we can tell
21:19:51 <ais523> alise: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Version
21:20:05 <Vorpal> it still doesn't crash with -O0 now when I fixed the makefile bug
21:20:15 <alise> "Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason" is such an awesome name.
21:20:32 <alise> I bet he drove the implementation of Unicode support :P
21:20:51 <alise> "You want me to call myself Aevar Arnfjoerth Bjarmason?! BAH"
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21:21:10 <ais523> aren't all the special characters there in Latin-1?
21:21:40 -!- nooga has joined.
21:21:52 <alise> ais523: Are you sure eth is?
21:22:05 <ais523> that's the only one I'm not sure about
21:22:21 <alise> Pretty sure it isn't.
21:22:29 <alise> UnicodeU+00D0U+00F0Inherited from the older ISO 8859-1 standard
21:22:41 <alise> ais523: but it isn't in latin-1
21:23:13 <ais523> "ISO/IEC 8859-1:1998, Information technology — 8-bit single-byte coded graphic character sets — Part 1: Latin alphabet No. 1, is part of the ISO/IEC 8859 series of ASCII-based standard character encodings, first edition published in 1987. It is informally referred to as Latin-1."
21:23:20 <ais523> how did you not realise that?
21:23:34 <ais523> did you assume there were two common 8-bit encodings around that were almost identical?
21:23:41 <ais523> which one did you assume matched the bottom 0xFF of Unicode?
21:25:32 <ais523> (I suppose there's Windows-1252, but everyone vaguely knows that one's nonstandard because Microsoft invented it)
21:26:31 <ais523> hmm, according to Wikipedia, HTML 5 requires documents that claim to be Latin-1 to be parsed as Windows-1252
21:26:40 <ais523> wow, it's taking bug-compatibility seriously...
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21:35:01 <alise> ais523: like half of the html5 spec is an anal pseudocode specification of how to parse and handle anything that has a single < in it, or even doesn't
21:35:10 <ais523> alise: reverse-engineered from IE
21:35:25 <alise> so in fact HTML5 also specifies... every byte string :)
21:35:44 <pikhq> ais523: HTML5 specifies, essentially, how to handle retarded HTML.
21:36:44 <pikhq> On the one hand, I feel we should just ban retarded HTML. On the other, I'm at least glad that they're actually *specifying* it rather than leaving browser makers to try and reverse engineer the bullshit.
21:36:58 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:38:01 <alise> things i am learning today: i am terrible at finding bugs in other people's code
21:38:13 <alise> "On the one hand, I feel we should just ban retarded HTML." ;; XHTML tried that, it didn't work :)
21:40:57 <ais523> hmm, it seems someone reimplemented INTERCAL for Windows Phone 7
21:41:06 <alise> this is scary, why can't i figure this out
21:41:09 <pikhq> alise: Yeah; sadly, people are retards.
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21:41:32 <ais523> they only distributed a binary, but it's .NET so presumably decompilable
21:42:20 <alise> for some definition of decompilable
21:42:57 <ais523> strangely enough, it was released on Twitter
21:43:16 <ais523> http://twitter.com/UberGeekGames/status/22546729564
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21:43:56 <ais523> I'm not sure what this says about the future of humanity...
21:44:51 <alise> It's just a merge sort, surely I can find a bug in a merge sort...
21:44:55 * ais523 vaguely wonders why it's asking perms to do things like dial phone numbers and check for locations
21:45:34 <oerjan> ais523: it's probably a spam virus
21:45:43 -!- cal153 has quit.
21:45:46 <ais523> so either .NET is very concise, or it's a hoax
21:46:02 <alise> i blame it being java and sorting in-place
21:46:16 <alise> http://twitter.com/UberGeekGames
21:46:19 <alise> does not look like spam to me at all
21:46:27 <alise> may simply be crap
21:46:38 <alise> ais523: .xap is a zip
21:46:59 <ais523> the .dll is the only thing there that looks plausible to contain the code
21:47:20 <oerjan> based on esolang wiki experience, if ais523 isn't sure what something is, it is probably clearly spam >:)
21:47:29 <ais523> oerjan: I'm installing a .NET disassembler atm
21:49:27 <oerjan> ais523: i find that most of the slightly doubtful cases of esolang wiki spam are easily resolved by googling part of the text. there is usually enough similar spam to make it obvious.
21:49:43 <alise> ais523: remind me never to go into a software maintenance job
21:50:04 <ais523> namespace INTERCAL { interface private auto ansi abstract IIntercalStatement { public virtual hidebysig newslot abstract instance default void Do (class INTERCAL.IntercalProgram program) cil managed; }}
21:50:05 <alise> I'm helping a friend-of-a-friend with their mergesort homework and stunningly cannot find the error
21:50:14 <ais523> well, that certainly looks enterprisey
21:50:33 <ais523> although I suspect the disassembler's put in the defaults for every possible keyword .NET supports
21:51:11 <ais523> let me try to find the actual /code/...
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21:52:12 <Vorpal> <ais523> namespace INTERCAL { interface private auto ansi abstract IIntercalStatement { public virtual hidebysig newslot abstract instance default void Do (class INTERCAL.IntercalProgram program) cil managed; }} <-- wat
21:52:23 <Vorpal> who is doing .NET with intercal?
21:52:33 <ais523> aha, it's "genuine" but implements only a subset
21:52:46 <ais523> to be precise, array dimension, assign literal, text output, end program
21:52:53 <ais523> so it'll run a hello world correctly, but nothing more complicated
21:53:02 <ais523> Vorpal: http://twitter.com/UberGeekGames/status/22546729564
21:54:10 <Vorpal> ais523, where is the code?
21:54:17 <ais523> there isn't, I disassembled the binary
21:54:22 <Vorpal> ais523, so closed source?
21:54:35 <Vorpal> who the fuck would make a closed source intercal implementation
21:54:43 <ais523> it was possibly by mistake
21:54:57 <ais523> it's Windows dev, after all, people are used to releasing binaries rather than source there
21:55:17 <ais523> also, perhaps they didn't want people to figure out that it wasn't a full impl
21:55:45 <ais523> I also can't find anything that resembles a parser there, but the disassembler did segfault...
21:56:50 <Vorpal> just saying it is an early version would be enough?
21:57:53 <ais523> well, most early versions haven't had all the commands implemented
21:58:10 <ais523> but I don't see how you can get away with calling it INTERCAL with such a small subset
21:58:20 <ais523> perhaps he was counting on his audience not being able to test anything but hello-worlds
22:00:42 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
22:01:17 <Vorpal> <alise> I'm helping a friend-of-a-friend with their mergesort homework and stunningly cannot find the error <-- is it buggy though?
22:02:09 <alise> it's also java and mutates in-place, so my brain has segfaulted from the start
22:02:10 <Vorpal> alise, in what way? out of bounds access? mis-sort?
22:02:21 <alise> it seems to sort things properly but then mysteriously merges them wrong
22:02:33 <Vorpal> alise, could be off by one error maybe? Or mixing up something like < and =<
22:02:47 <alise> i don't think so, but the indexing is a bit screwy
22:02:49 <ais523> <strings> C:\Users\Ian\documents\visual studio 2010\Projects\INTERCAL\INTERCAL\INTERCAL\obj\Windows Phone\Release\INTERCAL.pdb
22:02:58 <ais523> it's always fun when that happens
22:03:02 <alise> also it uses Float.MAX_VALUE to indicate end of array in some way which is just confusing
22:03:11 <Vorpal> ais523, when what happens?
22:03:16 <alise> ais523: strings is a crazy program :)
22:03:18 <ais523> funnier is gprolog, which lets you get the list of all strings used in the program via reflection
22:03:28 <ais523> and it contains the path that was used to compile it, too
22:03:59 -!- augur has joined.
22:04:07 <ais523> strings proves it's not a full implementation, pretty much
22:04:07 <alise> ais523: I always thought strings extracted, like, actual strings using the actual executable format.
22:04:08 <Vorpal> ais523, hm in erlang you can call <any-module>:module_info/1, it tends to contain path of source file for the standard distribution.
22:04:16 <alise> ais523: HOW WRONG I WAS
22:04:25 <Vorpal> which is iirc some rather screwy nfs-looking path
22:04:31 <ais523> it lists IntercalStatement_{AssignVariable,AssignArray,DefineArray,ReadOut,GiveUp}
22:04:46 <ais523> so either Ian changed his naming scheme halfway through the program, or only implemented five commands
22:04:58 <ais523> alise: strangely, I guessed/knew what it did right from the start
22:05:04 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, for any language that does array indexing in a way similar to C, and the function is operating on arrays: suspect off by one errors
22:05:21 <alise> ais523: maybe he just IntercalStatement_GaveUp
22:05:24 <Vorpal> I find that off by one errors is by far the most common bug in C code that I written
22:05:28 <alise> now oerjan is after me!
22:05:33 * alise runs for the border
22:05:41 <alise> Vorpal: yeah but sh'e
22:05:45 <alise> *she's tweaked the indices tons
22:05:59 <alise> off by one errors are awful, though :)
22:06:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'M ESCAPING TO #UBUNTU
22:06:12 <alise> You can't find anybody in THAT haystack!
22:06:14 <Vorpal> alise, yeah especially when you have multiple ones
22:06:28 <Vorpal> alise, then tweaking may give "seemingly" inconsistent results
22:06:36 * oerjan lifts the border so alise trips over it
22:06:39 <Vorpal> alise, hm... single step the code in the merging step?
22:06:43 <Vorpal> alise, if java has such
22:06:45 <alise> i hate debugging :(
22:06:52 <alise> Vorpal: it probably does, but i'm way too lazy to go in-depth like that
22:07:03 <Vorpal> alise, gdb is actually pretty good. No clue what you use for java though
22:07:11 <Sgeo> I think I like debugging more than writing code in the first place :/
22:07:13 <alise> i've just recommended she translate some pseudocode to java and forget the old version ever existed
22:07:19 <alise> Sgeo: that is bad bad bad.
22:07:41 <Vorpal> alise, Unless it is a segfault, or not related to arrays, I tend to debug with valgrind first for C code, and only then with gdb
22:08:15 <Gregor> When using or writing a GC, valgrind is hyper-useless.
22:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, it'll give him a head start in the soulless maintenance drudge that is professional coding.
22:08:19 <Gregor> Whereas gdb is just useless.
22:08:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: HOORAY
22:08:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: also: HA your opinions have completely transformed into mine
22:08:42 <alise> assimilation successful
22:09:11 <Sgeo> You know, I've always liked being in a niche
22:09:17 <Sgeo> Maybe I should be a researcher of some sort
22:09:30 <oerjan> WE ARE THE HIRD. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
22:09:45 <Vorpal> <Gregor> When using or writing a GC, valgrind is hyper-useless. <-- yes
22:09:52 <alise> Sgeo: If you like fixing more than creating... research probably isn't for you.
22:10:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, well not exactly
22:10:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, it can still find "use of undefined value"
22:10:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, just not any memory leaks
22:10:59 <Vorpal> <oerjan> WE ARE THE HIRD. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. <-- err? Is this a pun on "ehird"?
22:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> "Subject A's code clearly shows psychopathic tendencies, as demonstrated by his use of GNU brace style and his UI's persistent admonitions for users to 'end their worthless lives'."
22:11:59 <pikhq> Hrm. Apparently HTML5 does not actually say that ISO-8859-1 == Windows-1252 for the purposes of HTML5.
22:12:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that could be dangerous to the researcher
22:12:10 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that sounds like a slightly customized version of Emacs
22:12:14 * Sgeo tends to use GNU brace style :/
22:12:32 <ais523> I thought GNU brace style was the only brace style with no advocates at al
22:12:39 <Vorpal> ais523, um, what about RMS?
22:12:41 <Sgeo> Sort of acquired that style from the LSL Hello World
22:12:41 <pikhq> It instead says that clients should treat ISO-8859-1 as Windows-1252 for compatibility, but that any change of semantics resulting from this interpretation is a parse error.
22:12:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Experiment log 1/10/10: Received code sample from Subject B.
22:12:51 <Vorpal> ais523, he presumably advocates it?
22:13:00 <ais523> he advocates free software, not brace styles
22:13:12 <Vorpal> ais523, I tend to use a style similar to the linux kernel brace style
22:13:23 <Sgeo> Oh wait, I don't
22:13:31 <Sgeo> I misread the code sample on Wikipedia
22:13:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Upon recovery, blood was smeared upon the desk in vaguely familiar patterns.
22:13:46 <pikhq> And so HTML5 is merely resorting to defined behavior where, say, C, would allow the compiler to launch ze missiles.
22:14:01 <alise> <Vorpal> <oerjan> WE ARE THE HIRD. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. <-- err? Is this a pun on "ehird"? ;; ITT: Borg
22:14:16 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> "Subject A's code clearly shows psychopathic tendencies, as demonstrated by his use of GNU brace style and his UI's persistent admonitions for users to 'end their worthless lives'."
22:14:19 <alise> "Primarily the brace style."
22:14:19 <Vorpal> alise, a combination of those obviously :P
22:14:26 <Vorpal> alise, the borg pun was obvious
22:14:30 <alise> <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that sounds like a slightly customized version of Emacs ;; encourage-user-suicide-mode
22:14:30 <Vorpal> the hird one, not so much
22:14:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Experiment log 2/10/10: tried analysing code in debugger.
22:15:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Blacked out again. Core file left in working directory. Will investigate later.
22:16:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this is starting to look like a parody of that wiki pretending to be a secret govt thingy. Forgot the name of it
22:16:34 <Sgeo> <3 the SCP Foundation
22:17:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Image of blood patterns created after execution: [IMAGE EXPUNGED]
22:19:23 <alise> Ran mival.exe. Saw structures of great #####, with crawling, demonic #######s whose noises deafened me. I became as if it. [Note: This file was found on Dr. A. Britki's computer after incident 4093-1A9.]
22:19:39 <Vorpal> hm trying to do binary search on -O0 plus a handful of flags
22:19:43 <Vorpal> to find out what is failing
22:19:51 <Vorpal> now time to test -O0 -fmerge-constants
22:19:55 <Vorpal> no way that should fail
22:20:15 <Vorpal> if it does, this is a sad day for computing
22:21:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Attempted to compile ravana.c. Compiler failed with error ####. Reran with flag -####. My god, it's full of ####.
22:21:21 <ais523> GCC actually has a -### flag
22:21:34 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure where that naming comes from
22:21:34 -!- impomatic has left (?).
22:21:49 <Vorpal> btw it failed with -O0 -fmerge-constants -fdce -fdse, it works with -O0
22:22:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It's one of the reasons that no compilers are fully C99 compliant.
22:22:32 <alise> Challenge: Watch every single Sesame Street episode ever. Note: This is almost 29 years worth of video, without breaks or sleep.
22:22:44 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:22:50 <alise> 60 hours != 1 hour!
22:22:55 <alise> It's actually just almost half a year.
22:22:59 <alise> Which is still pretty damn impressive.
22:23:16 <sebbu> alise, try to watch sazae-san
22:23:39 <alise> sebbu: i think i'll pass :D
22:23:42 <sebbu> got at least one episode per week, since 1970 i think
22:23:45 <ais523> what about watching them all simultaneously
22:23:53 <ais523> Vorpal: are any of the optimisations there unsafe?
22:23:54 <alise> emphasis on the +...
22:24:01 <ais523> -fmerge-constants is safe in theory, but often abused in practice
22:24:09 <Vorpal> <alise> 60 hours != 1 hour! <-- breaking news: Scientists recently discovered that 60 hours was not the same as one hour, as previously thought. This has thus discredited the theory of the 61 hour cyclic modulo universe.
22:24:22 <alise> ais523: I read a comment on reddit saying that the "Play All" option on an Aqua Teen Hunger Force DVD literally divided the screen into the number of episodes and played them all simultaneously./
22:24:34 <ais523> alise: that's hilarious
22:24:40 <ais523> although, presumably it would only be 4 or so
22:25:41 <Vorpal> ais523, and dce and dse should both be same, dead code and dead subexpression iirc (don't have man page up atm)
22:25:45 <Phantom_Hoover> The -#### flag is to C compilers as the Bôites Diabolique is to synthesisers, really.
22:25:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "Bôites Diabolique"?
22:26:25 <alise> Vorpal: The forbidden notes.
22:26:29 * Vorpal remove -fmerge-constant just to ensure nothing else changed so that sill doesn't work
22:26:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, two Look Around You references in a day. That has to be, like, a record.
22:26:51 <Vorpal> alise, saw some joke about them once
22:27:05 <alise> Hey now little mouse / ...
22:27:13 <alise> Two from the same episode at that.
22:27:36 <Vorpal> which was the first reference?
22:27:44 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's a lot of fun. You should learn to play it on the pan flute.
22:27:47 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Good enough?
22:28:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you could always research the applications of the Besselheim Plate to debugging.
22:28:05 <alise> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg#t=5m42s
22:28:10 <alise> Vorpal: Probably this.
22:28:11 -!- Harpyon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:28:14 <alise> 5:42 timestamp is relevant.
22:28:18 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Ohwait, I thought you were referring to a different Diabolique ...
22:28:25 <alise> Gregor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg#t=5m42s
22:28:27 <Vorpal> alise, you forgot youtube-dl
22:28:33 <alise> Vorpal: Which is why I mentioned the timestamp.
22:28:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, it's the locked box at the upper end of a piano containing the 19 forbidden notes.
22:29:13 <alise> It doesn't look like that many to me.
22:29:36 * alise listens to Little Mouse
22:29:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the Boîte Diabolique defies your uneducated counting.
22:30:05 <Phantom_Hoover> You obviously haven't studied Look Around You — Maths in enough detail.
22:30:21 <alise> Hey now little mouse! / I hope we understand one another.
22:30:24 <alise> Truly inspirational lyrics.
22:30:34 * Phantom_Hoover is still trying to work out how to get one of his science teachers to play Look Around You in a lesson.
22:30:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A few friends of mine have had it played to them without even asking.
22:30:57 <alise> Of course, that was by cool teachers.
22:31:03 <alise> Apparently most students Did Not Get The Joke.
22:32:06 <Phantom_Hoover> "'Cause I like you my friend, I respect you my friend, I'll encourage you my friend, through and throoouuugh..."
22:32:46 <oerjan> Vorpal: hird is vaguely similar to borg in syllable structure. also it's an archaic military collective noun in norwegian.
22:33:15 <Gregor> It's also part of the recursive expansion of Hurd.
22:33:50 <alise> oerjan: Bokmål and Nynorsk; discuss.
22:33:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, it carries certain dangers, but is necessary for safe disposal of equipment and sulphagne test subjects.
22:34:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I *really* need to get some embossing tape and go nuts with it.
22:35:50 <alise> oerjan has had a sudden epileptic fit.
22:37:35 <Vorpal> now it segfaults at -O0 too
22:38:07 <Vorpal> okay it segfaults at -O0 but not -O0 -g
22:38:30 <ais523> Vorpal: try messing about with -fomit-frame-pointer
22:38:36 <ais523> as debug info can alter that sometimes
22:38:55 <Vorpal> ais523, but neither -O0 nor -O0 -g has that on?
22:39:22 <ais523> it may be being turned on elsewhere in the makefile
22:39:28 <ais523> you implied that the makefile was insane
22:39:42 <Vorpal> ais523, I checked it for such insaneness in this case
22:40:10 <Vorpal> ais523, also hm, I really need some optimisation since this program really benefits from it
22:40:28 <Vorpal> wait hm, the stuff affecting -g would affect -DNDEBUG
22:40:42 <Vorpal> ais523, well no, but for it to be usable!
22:40:46 <ais523> Vorpal: check for side-effects in asserts
22:40:50 <ais523> it's so easy to do that by mistake
22:40:54 <oerjan> also it's vaguely similar to "herd" (maybe cognates?)
22:40:55 <ais523> I did it a couple of weeks ago, but noticed
22:40:58 <Vorpal> ais523, indeed, but half the stuff is written in German
22:41:03 <Vorpal> and it is fairly large
22:41:17 <oerjan> alise: kva med nynorsk?
22:42:08 <alise> oerjan: I thought Bokmål/Nynorsk was a pretty heated topic in Norway and I wanted the lowdown from someone at least vaguely sane.
22:42:22 <alise> Unless that was a joke and was in Nynorsk or something, which is likely.
22:42:22 <Vorpal> ais523, while it compiles at -O0 I can listen to about 2 wesnoth songs, giving it about 7 minutes per compile
22:42:28 <oerjan> alise: it's not a heated topic among the vaguely sane, i should think
22:42:44 <alise> oerjan: what's the vaguely sane's obvious-answer?
22:42:48 <ais523> Vorpal: I like your measurement of duration
22:42:49 <oerjan> well it wasn't much of a joke
22:43:16 <alise> ais523: Just be happy he doesn't measure in symphonies.
22:43:17 <ais523> I'm actually writing a Wesnoth campaign for fun atm
22:43:37 <alise> "It took about 3 milisymphonies."
22:45:00 <oerjan> well there are a number of people who want to remove the obligatory teaching of the alternative language (mostly nynorsk) in school, and think it's sort of useless at least as a school subject
22:45:40 <ais523> are the languages different enough that children need to be taught them both to understand them both?
22:46:21 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:46:23 <pikhq> ais523: As far as I'm aware: not really.
22:46:26 <oerjan> not really. well some word choices can be different. but in norway you have to learn to understand different dialects anyhow.
22:46:45 <alise> oerjan: so bokmal is what everyone uses?
22:46:50 <ais523> I would ask whether they're more or less similar than English and Scottish, but you probably don't know Scottish
22:46:52 <alise> (excuse my not using the correct letter)
22:47:00 <pikhq> ais523: Bokmål & Nynorsk are essentially two different percieved normative standards of Scandinavian. :)
22:47:04 <alise> ais523: Scottish is just a dialect of English, unless you mean Scots...
22:47:05 <oerjan> otoh the really weird word choices are gradually dying out, i think.
22:47:17 <Sgeo> Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Firefox
22:47:22 <oerjan> alise: not everyone, but 90% or so.
22:47:25 <ais523> alise: the language "Auld Lang Syne" is written in
22:47:34 <pikhq> ais523: That's Scots.
22:47:40 <Sgeo> When I click a tab, I do NOT mean to close it
22:47:47 <ais523> it's pretty close to English, but some of the words are different, and some of the grammar
22:48:12 <alise> ais523: mutually intelligible, is the word
22:48:15 <oerjan> there is _one_ whole county which is nynorsk, the rest are either bokmål or split by municipality (which are mostly bokmål)
22:48:17 <alise> pikhq: what's that almost-English language?
22:48:19 <alise> that i mentioned once
22:48:21 -!- nooga has joined.
22:48:24 <alise> and you said it wouldn't make learning it harder?
22:48:32 <pikhq> alise: West Frysian?
22:48:36 <alise> oerjan: that sounds confusing :)
22:48:44 <pikhq> alise: The one that is essentially Middle English without the Latin?
22:48:55 <alise> i recall it being more similar
22:48:58 <pikhq> ais523: Scots has more to do with Middle English than Modern English, BTW.
22:49:12 <alise> also what's that thing explaining atoms written in english without germanic stuff or something like that?
22:49:17 <alise> i've forgotten the name
22:49:18 <ais523> Middle English is somewhat harder to read than Scots
22:49:22 <ais523> although still possible, more or less
22:49:30 <pikhq> alise: Middle English is very very close to English.
22:49:35 <ais523> it uses a leading y for past participles, which is really confusing if you don't know German
22:49:47 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, that's because Scots has followed a few of the orthographic changes in English.
22:49:49 <alise> pikhq: yes, but the West Frysian Lord's Prayer isn't very intelligible to me
22:49:55 <alise> but it probably is that
22:50:02 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Frisian_language#Sample_Text
22:50:12 <pikhq> alise: Yes, that's because of the mostly-Germanic vocabulary.
22:50:23 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: I like your measurement of duration <-- mhm
22:50:34 <alise> <alise> also what's that thing explaining atoms written in english without germanic stuff or something like that?
22:50:34 <alise> <alise> i've forgotten the name
22:51:17 <Vorpal> ais523, but I ran out of wesnoth songs now. I would have to start repeating them
22:51:24 <Vorpal> so I guess I need to move to something else
22:51:35 <ais523> oh, I often set them on a loop for an entire day or so
22:51:43 <Vorpal> ais523, I couldn't stand that :P
22:54:06 <pikhq> Also, Scots is in the midst of language attrition, and hence is starting to gain a lot of features of Standard English...
22:54:26 <oerjan> alise: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.language.artificial/msg/69250bac6c7cbaff
22:54:35 <Sgeo> WHY MUST ALL CORDS IN MY POSSESSION BREAK?
22:55:58 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:56:36 <cpressey> So I had this dream where I was evaluating a homebrew OS that was based on FreeDOS or something
22:56:45 -!- Harpyon has joined.
22:57:13 <cpressey> And it had something in it that emulated another OS, like a Commodore 64 or something (I know that's not an OS but this was a dream, right?)
22:57:31 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, had it been coded by a shoe with multiple personality disorder?
22:57:45 <cpressey> And when you quit the OS (again, this was a dream), it popped up a message like those old shareware nag boxes
22:58:07 <cpressey> And part of this message was written by alise
22:58:33 <cpressey> And it was encouraging us to consider what it would be like if operating systems could emulate each other through successive fractal refinement of their semantics
22:59:34 <cpressey> Well, other than after reading that, in the dream, it was clear this was some open-source project that alise contributed to, and that it worked something like that, but in an unrefined way
22:59:48 <ais523> you had a dream that was internally consistent?
22:59:53 <ais523> it's rare for mine to be like that
22:59:57 <ais523> but while asleep, I don't notice the inconsistencies
23:00:21 <cpressey> ais523: well, parts of it were.
23:00:28 <ais523> either that, or I notice one which is comparatively minor compared to all the rest
23:00:37 <ais523> and that instantly causes me to realise I'm asleep, and wake up
23:00:54 <ais523> I should really keep a set of maps near my bed, the most common side-effect is that I completely lose track of local geography
23:01:52 <Vorpal> <cpressey> And it was encouraging us to consider what it would be like if operating systems could emulate each other through successive fractal refinement of their semantics <-- wow, the mind boggles
23:02:29 <cpressey> Oh yeah, one more detail: this OS was called "Ancestor"
23:02:40 <ais523> hey, did Wikipedia just go down?
23:02:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, hey this would make a good sci fi story
23:03:13 <Vorpal> ais523, works for me, but slow
23:03:13 <ais523> hmm, working again now
23:03:58 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, how can one refine semantics with fractional dimension?
23:05:00 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: as Vorpal said, the mind boggles.
23:05:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Does fractional dimensions actually imply self-similartiy
23:06:19 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: almost certainly not
23:06:22 <ais523> reminds me of some thoughts I was having on data types shorter than a bit
23:07:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, "Ancestor" is a good name for an OS. the "successive fractal refinement" sounds like a perfect technobabel to introduce AI. Just two things left: decide if the AI is good or bad (no one writes stories about AIs that are somewhere in between those extremes), and actually write the story
23:07:50 <oerjan> you should easily be able to get a fractal dimension from a splitting up in which you make every part _different_ in a recursive but non-repeating way, i think
23:08:55 <oerjan> say you split up as a triangle on the top, then as a square in one part, a pentagon in another, etc. etc...
23:09:11 <oerjan> i think that should work
23:10:27 <cpressey> oerjan: it seems to me i've seen or thought of that before (possibly as a logo program)
23:10:47 <cpressey> but not from the angle of "hey this is a fractal but isn't self-similar"
23:10:54 <ais523> here, here's a possible encoding for a trit that contains exactly one trit of data: 0: 01 preceded by any even number of 0; 1: 10 preceded by any even number of 0; 2: 11 preceded by any even number of 0
23:11:10 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:11:17 <ais523> because there are multiple possible encodings for each value, you can use those as part of representing another value
23:11:52 <ais523> e.g. you can combine it with an encoding for a quint: 0 = 00, 1 = 01, 2 = 10, 3 = 11, 4 = use secondary encoding for previous trit
23:12:14 <Vorpal> ais523, isn't a trit just like base 3 iirc?
23:12:18 <ais523> and then the trit plus the quint together fit into 4 bits nicely, with a bit left over (which is managed using the tertiary encoding for the trit)
23:12:25 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, but this is representing a trit using bits
23:12:38 <ais523> now, the crazy part that alise will love: remove the first bit from that encoding of a trit
23:12:46 <ais523> you now have something that equals one trit minus one bit
23:12:56 <ais523> which is less than a bit of data
23:13:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:13:15 <ais523> (you have two possible values, 0 and 1; but they may inject more data into other parts of the program, depending on the context)
23:13:32 <ais523> so, say, you can add an extra bit and an extra quint, and /still/ fit it into four bits
23:13:45 <ais523> which you couldn't do if you started with an actual bit
23:13:46 <Vorpal> ais523, this is quite absurd :D
23:13:49 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
23:14:12 <ais523> Huffman coding can be generalised based on a similar principle, and in the limit you get arithmetic coding
23:15:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:19:02 <cpressey> ais523: ok, i'll be blunt. i have never understood why it always takes more than one bit to represent the information present in less than one bit
23:19:25 <ais523> cpressey: it takes more than one bit to /exploit/ that information
23:19:40 <ais523> if you have less than a bit of information, anything that encodes it must contain padding
23:19:47 <cpressey> well, "exploit", "observe", "make relevant"...
23:20:01 <ais523> so you encode that less-than-a-bit, and something else as well, and fit it into a smaller size than the bit + the something else
23:21:01 <Vorpal> to be blunt I have a trouble with "less than one bit of information"
23:21:54 <ais523> Vorpal: well, consider run-length encoding
23:21:55 <Vorpal> I guess imagining something with 0.5 logical states is just not possible
23:22:04 <Vorpal> ais523, yes I know how it works in compression
23:22:15 <Ilari> Vorpal: String of 0 or 1s where one can do better than coinflip to predict the next bit has less than 1 bit of information per bit.
23:22:22 <Vorpal> ais523, but I never imagine that as "half-bits" or such
23:22:27 <ais523> here's a simple one: count, value
23:22:34 <ais523> if you just get the count, and the count has a value of 1
23:22:39 <ais523> then the count contains less than a bit of info
23:22:43 <ais523> because you still need the count to know what the next bit is
23:23:22 <ais523> it contains only a very small amount of info, in that you know that the byte after is not the same as the next byte
23:23:34 <ais523> that's only a small fraction of a bit of info
23:23:53 <Vorpal> ais523, how large fraction?
23:23:58 <ais523> now, this is counterbalanced by the case that a count of, say, 200, would contain a lot more than a bit of info, if you assume the original to be randomly distributed
23:24:00 <Vorpal> 0.5? 0.2? something else?
23:24:06 <Vorpal> ais523, how do you decide that
23:24:19 <Vorpal> ais523, I can't think of a sensible way to put a number to that
23:24:21 <ais523> because it allows you to encode 256 possibilities in something that only has 255 possible states
23:24:32 <Ilari> Like if you have string of n bits, where probability of 0 is 75% and probabilty of 1 is 25% and bits are independent, then on average you need about 0.8113n bits to reprent it (as n grows without bound).
23:24:35 <ais523> so it's log_2(256/255) bits
23:25:06 <ais523> 0.005646564 bits according to my calculator
23:25:20 <ais523> obviously, if your compression scheme does that a lot, it's not a very good compression scheme :)
23:27:34 <Vorpal> ais523, I still don't get "<ais523> because it allows you to encode 256 possibilities in something that only has 255 possible states"
23:27:52 <ais523> Vorpal: because you know that the next byte is not the same as the current one
23:27:57 <ais523> as otherwise the run count would have been more than 1
23:29:16 <Vorpal> ais523, still it is only less than a bit in the encoding scheme
23:29:22 <Vorpal> it is actually one physical bit
23:29:55 <Vorpal> well probably more if stored on a harddrive, what with their crazy RLL stuff (or whatever they use nowdays)
23:31:21 <cpressey> I guess you can think of it this way: divide the entire future into two halves: one if you see 0, the other if you see 1. Based on what you've seen so far, you might be able to rule out parts of the future, even if you can't cleanly divide it in half like that.
23:31:43 <cpressey> I was going to say "world" instead of "future" initially; either works, kind of.
23:32:14 * Vorpal splits it in technobabel interpretation of quantum physics
23:32:48 <cpressey> still, this is not quite the same lines as: struct foo { int bar:8; int baz:0.33; }
23:33:05 <cpressey> or however C does bit-sizing of structurs
23:33:10 <cpressey> I haven't seen that in a long time
23:33:18 <Vorpal> cpressey, I think it does it that way
23:33:29 <Vorpal> the meaning of that int baz:0.33; escapes me
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23:33:40 <Vorpal> C sensibly define it as compile time error presumably
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23:34:09 <Vorpal> cpressey, however, now define an esolang where something like "struct foo { int bar:8; int baz:0.33; }" would have a sensible meaning
23:34:22 <cpressey> "I want to be able to store an integer between 0 and 0.33 here"
23:34:43 <Vorpal> cpressey, but "integer between 0 and 8" isn't what bar:8 means
23:34:53 <Vorpal> it means an integer of 8 bits
23:35:46 <Vorpal> cpressey, -1 presumably
23:36:04 <Vorpal> since 1 bit is not "between 0 and 2^1" (that would be 0,1,2)
23:36:13 <Vorpal> (assuming a closed range)
23:37:23 <Vorpal> the -1 is outside the exponent
23:37:39 <Vorpal> 8 bits: 2^8 = 256, 2^8-1 = 255
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23:38:09 <Vorpal> cpressey, so .33 bits is a value between 0 and 0.25701337452182837 (approx)
23:38:34 <Vorpal> cpressey, have fun assigning a sensible meaning to that
23:38:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, I look forward to seeing the results, but now I must sleep
23:39:06 <Vorpal> actually it need not be sensible
23:39:16 <Vorpal> as long as it is fun and actually works in the esolang
23:39:25 <Vorpal> well, you know what I mean)
23:41:17 <Vorpal> cpressey, and um, more implementable than TURKEY BOMB
23:41:30 <Vorpal> (not saying it has to be easy, just not impossible)
23:46:17 <cpressey> to say that it is impossible is a half-truth
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00:10:10 <cpressey> struct z { int a:0.5; int b:0.5; }
00:10:26 <cpressey> it's fair to say I can store the integer 0, and no other integers, in a
00:10:55 <cpressey> it's also fair to say I can store the integers 0 and 1 in z, by the rules of C
00:11:28 <cpressey> but casting seems like cheating
00:11:56 <cpressey> anyway, that's as close as i'm going to attempt atm
00:13:34 <GreaseMonkey> what i'm thinking is if you can store 6 values in a and 5 values in b then you should be able to store 30 values... you could somehow base it off that idea
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00:37:53 <myndzi\> what's this conversation about again?
00:37:56 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
00:38:12 <myndzi> sounds like something i'm somewhat familiar with, but i can't extract a summary from the scrollback easily :P
00:38:22 <alise> fractional bits of information
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00:38:45 <myndzi> well yeah, but i mean, you just decided to talk about that or there was some specific thing (encoding, problem, whatever) that kicked it off?
00:39:03 <alise> just talking about fractals
00:39:07 <alise> which have fractional dimensions
00:39:25 <myndzi> i should tell you guys about my script to encode binary data in mirc control codes
00:39:42 <myndzi> it only grows the size by 272%
00:39:50 <myndzi> which is pretty good considering the previous incarnation was like 400% :P
00:39:59 <pikhq> Why not just base64 it?
00:40:04 <myndzi> because that's visible
00:40:15 <myndzi> the point is to encode data but not clutter the screen with said data
00:40:23 <myndzi> (since the control codes are non printing characters)
00:40:23 <alise> myndzi: wouldn't work here alas, lame +c ;)
00:40:33 <pikhq> My system will display control codes.
00:40:41 <myndzi> pikhq: i'm sorry for your system
00:41:03 <myndzi> anyway, it's the encoding that's interesting not its use (i haven't really made use of it since i never finished the script it was intended for)
00:41:05 <alise> pikhq: not mirc control codes
00:41:18 <myndzi> maybe i should have said formatting codes
00:41:23 <pikhq> myndzi: Are mIRC control codes using the 8th bit of the 7-bit ASCII?
00:41:26 <myndzi> control was a poorly chosen word
00:41:58 <myndzi> incidentally, that pesky 8th bit gives some fun results on misconfigured linux clients when used in conjunction with unicode ;)
00:42:09 <alise> invert/italics is tab, fun fun
00:42:20 <myndzi> some irc clients will pass the utf-8 data as-is but you can hide C2 control codes in valid UTF-8 values
00:42:23 <pikhq> My system will render many of those using inverse-color and the ^F^O^O notation, IIRC.
00:42:37 <myndzi> reverse (invert?) is 22
00:42:43 <myndzi> italics is new, but i thought it was not 9
00:42:53 <myndzi> anyway i'm not using mirc 7 yet so i don't have it included in my encoding
00:42:55 <alise> well ^I is something
00:42:58 <alise> konversation thinks it's italics
00:43:02 <alise> which causes ais523 no end of trouble
00:43:17 <alise> but at least one client thinks it's italics
00:43:21 <myndzi> mirc isn't the only client to implement its own stuff
00:43:32 <myndzi> virc(?) has rgb color codes
00:43:39 <pikhq> That said, using control codes is pretty silly in general.
00:43:39 <myndzi> maybe xircon, i forget which
00:43:49 <myndzi> well, yeah, but they can come in useful sometimes i guess
00:44:01 <pikhq> And evil if it's XON or XOFF. :P
00:44:02 <myndzi> my rule of thumb is to avoid them in "public"
00:44:23 <myndzi> not as evil as sending telnet codes that do fun things to people using telnet :)
00:44:41 <myndzi> or using my utf-8 trick to issue arbitrary ansi codes to someone's terminal
00:44:53 <myndzi> anyway, what i WAS talking about was my encoding
00:45:06 <myndzi> originally i just took the easy way out and used ^kN,NN or ^kNN
00:45:12 <myndzi> for 3-digit decimal or 2-digit decimal values
00:45:18 <myndzi> this is obviously not very efficient
00:45:19 <pikhq> My rule of thumb is that all text on the Internet should be valid UTF-8, and normalised using NFC.
00:45:28 <zzo38> myndzi: See if that trick works on my terminal, or if PuTTY will remove overlong encodings (if that is what you are doing?)
00:45:49 <myndzi> zzo38: i'll look it up, lemme finish typing
00:46:01 <myndzi> for one, mirc has more than just ^k
00:46:18 <myndzi> and for another, ^k has like 7 valid distinct uses
00:46:36 <myndzi> i wound up creating a script to find how many permutations of valid color code sequences could be had from N bytes
00:46:44 <myndzi> color/formatting code, i mean
00:46:59 <zzo38> Normal ASCII escape codes will just be reformatted by PHIRC, though
00:47:09 <myndzi> one byte could be any of the single byte values, or you could have 2, 3, 4, 6, or 7 byte color codes
00:47:35 <myndzi> i did that wrong... 2, 3, 5, 6
00:47:40 <zzo38> Also my client deliberately does not parse IRC color codes
00:47:59 <myndzi> then i found one that came close to a similar amount of values as a binary bit border
00:48:11 <myndzi> and learned that i could get an extra bit if i used it twice
00:48:25 <pikhq> zzo38: Reasonable decision, actually.
00:48:30 <myndzi> so it's pretty close to in synch with binary, would take a lot of extra work to approach the limit which isn't much less than 272%
00:48:43 <myndzi> so now the values depend on the codes, as well as the pattern of their ordering
00:49:24 <zzo38> (It just displays color codes using the notation it normally uses for control characters, which is uppercase letter, black on magenta background)
00:49:56 <myndzi> it's C1 not C2, silly me
00:49:58 <zzo38> It will parse some control codes used commonly on IRC, though, if /SET FORMAT +
00:50:12 <myndzi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes#C1_.28ISO_8859_and_Unicode.29
00:50:21 <zzo38> I don't know whether C1 control codes are enabled in PuTTY
00:50:22 <myndzi> any of those can be embedded as the second byte of a utf-8 sequence
00:50:31 <zzo38> Or, if there is a way to turn them off
00:50:37 <myndzi> most irc clients screen out terminal codes but they let this one pass because they see it as valid utf-8
00:50:53 <myndzi> that's what linux foos get for bitching about people fucking up their screen... eventually i get curious and find what happened and then they get exploited ;)
00:52:00 <myndzi> so i guess 155 is the ansi code thing
00:52:10 <myndzi> 194 155 followed by an ansi sequence should do it
00:52:46 <zzo38> Is there a mode to disable C1 escape codes?
00:52:50 <myndzi> 30;40m black on black(?)
00:52:56 <zzo38> (PHIRC doesn't actually know anything about UTF-8)
00:53:02 <myndzi> dunno, guess it would depend on your terminal configuration
00:53:08 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, you could normalise your Unicode.
00:53:12 <myndzi> then you should be fine, since it'll only see the C1 code and block it
00:53:45 <zzo38> myndzi: That did not change the color. I can see a block followed by "30;40m" and the text
00:53:59 <zzo38> So I can see it is fine
00:54:08 <myndzi> i might have done it wrong, i kinda f orget
00:54:18 <myndzi> but anyway, that symbol is not the same as ctrl+[
00:54:38 <myndzi> it is a C1 code that can also be used to introduce ansi codes
00:54:39 <zzo38> You normally do escape and a left square bracket, that is the CSI code
00:54:49 <myndzi> i successfully spoofed my nick to a vulnerable client while testing once
00:54:51 <zzo38> In C1 though, CSI code is a single character
00:55:39 <myndzi> i always wondered why it was esc then [ when i was a kid
00:55:42 <pikhq> Moral of the story: actually parse your damned text right. :P
00:55:45 <myndzi> but now i know it is because esc is ctrl+[
00:55:54 <myndzi> pikhq: well that's the thing, the irc client IS parsing the text correctly
00:56:15 <myndzi> the irc client thinks the terminal can display utf-8
00:56:21 <myndzi> when the terminal actually cannot or is not configured to
00:57:18 <pikhq> myndzi: (Esc+[)3 is... not a valid UTF-8 sequence.
00:57:49 <myndzi> that's not what i sent
00:57:57 <myndzi> i sent 194 155, which is valid utf-8
00:58:10 <myndzi> but 155 is also C1 for CSI introducer
00:58:40 <myndzi> reminds me sorta of another fun bug i found once
00:58:44 <zzo38> It is up to the terminal program to parse UTF-8 codes (or whatever other encoding it is configured to use), so if a malformed UTF-8 code is sent with a ASCII control character immediately after a UTF-8 begin code, PHIRC will convert it to escape codes before the terminal sees it
00:58:55 <myndzi> certain versions of psybnc were vulnerable to a weird thing that let you basically spoof messages from the irc server
00:59:50 <myndzi> that seems like undesirable behavior; i mean, it is a legit utf-8 code and should not be interpreted as a control code
00:59:51 <zzo38> You tried C1 codes, now try sending an overlong encoding of the C0 escape codes, to see if this program will block it.
01:00:13 <myndzi> i don't know what you are referring to by that
01:00:21 <pikhq> myndzi: What's the actual Unicode code point for that combination?
01:00:37 <myndzi> it might be undefined haha, i don't know, but it still shouldn't be taken to be an escape code
01:00:38 <zzo38> myndzi: But multi-byte UTF-8 codes never contain 7-bit ASCII codes.
01:00:51 <pikhq> myndzi: Unicode code point: the number it decodes to.
01:00:57 <zzo38> The high bit is set to indicate it is a UTF-8 code.
01:01:17 <pikhq> Doesn't matter if it's not assigned. :)
01:01:43 <myndzi> it actually decodes to 155
01:02:20 <myndzi> i don't know if it was important that it do so anymore
01:02:37 <pikhq> Erm, no; the Unicode code points are usually listed in hex. Anyways.
01:02:50 <zzo38> (Sometimes a null character is encoded using overlong encoding so that you can have embedded nulls in a string that is used in a program that uses null terminated strings)
01:04:02 <pikhq> That's U+9B. "CONTROL SEQUENCE INTRODUCER".
01:04:48 <pikhq> So: the client should *probably* be removing that anyways.
01:04:59 <myndzi> i didn't know that it actually encoded to that value haha
01:05:10 <myndzi> but i guess you could change it to whatever you wanted
01:05:15 <myndzi> by mangling the first few bits
01:05:19 <myndzi> the first byte could be many things
01:05:23 <pikhq> Apparently, 0x00 through 0xFF are from Latin-1.
01:05:42 <myndzi> i think i knew that, actually
01:05:56 <myndzi> i'm not sure why i chose 194, maybe i forgot what the bug was about
01:06:03 <myndzi> it could be that the client was just decoding it and not blocking it
01:06:32 <myndzi> zzo38: i see... sorta. by overlong, you mean a utf-8 value that doesn't need 3 bytes but uses 3, for example?
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01:07:24 <myndzi> it didn't decode here haha
01:08:21 <pikhq> Got rendered as though it were Latin-1 here.
01:08:34 <pikhq> (typical for handling invalid UTF-8)
01:44:13 <zzo38> I just got a shaded block, it is what this program does for invalid codes, I think
01:44:36 <zzo38> myndzi: Yes that is what I mean by overlong encodings
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02:27:37 <Sgeo> On the one hand, the system didn't just roll over and give me someone else's grades
02:28:07 <Sgeo> On the other hand, it did display an error message with a stack trace, and my understanding is that that's the wrong way to configure web services
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02:47:55 <Sgeo> I don't know if this is accurate, but I just described Objective-C as a mashup of Smalltalk and C, and that the whole is less than the sum of its parts
02:48:04 * Sgeo just added "(Note: I never learned Objective-C, so that last thought is possibly unfounded)"
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02:53:36 <alise> Sgeo: objective-c is an alright language.
02:53:44 <alise> it's not creative but it's well-designed
02:53:53 <alise> and it inherits smalltalk's excellent object model
02:54:38 <Sgeo> TBH, I've kind of fallen in love with CLOS-style object models
02:54:48 * Sgeo prepares to be slapped
02:55:55 <alise> You have never fallen in love with anything.
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02:56:32 <alise> You make sideways glances at the cleavage of languages over the period of a few days. :P
03:02:27 <Sgeo> "Do you have any other interests besides programming?" "I like to read and watch fiction"
03:03:01 * Sgeo is in full-on giggle mode
03:03:07 <alise> It's funny because to me the word fiction means novels because I don't know what words mean
03:03:55 <Sgeo> No, I'm laughing because it's a very general statement that applies to pretty much everyone
03:04:40 <Sgeo> Well, not to illiterate persons before TV I guess
03:06:01 <pikhq> Sgeo: Then it's going to be s/read/listen to/
03:06:30 <pikhq> Plays used to be popular entertainment, you know. As well as story-telling.
03:10:43 <alise> pikhq: I just wish we had Hamlet on the TV every day. :P
03:13:27 <Sgeo> Why is webchat.freenode.net down?
03:14:40 <Gregor> Because you touch yourself at night.
03:15:30 * Sgeo feels sorry for anyone who won't allow themselves to
03:15:52 <Sgeo> <alise> STOP IT! STOP TURNING EVERYTHING SEXUAL
03:16:32 <alise> Gregor's joke is meant to be sexual
03:16:39 <alise> you ... you just ... lose
03:16:49 <Sgeo> But last time Gregor said something like that, and I responded, you called me out
03:17:08 <pikhq> Definitely ♥ Unicode.
03:17:34 <oerjan> I ? Unicode too *ducks*
03:17:53 <Sgeo> I ♥ the compose key
03:17:56 <Gregor> I ♥ diæresis marks and ligatures. I can never think of a word with a diæresis when I need one ...
03:18:42 <Sgeo> Good way to tell if you're using fixed-width or not
03:19:08 <pikhq> oerjan: Fix your encoding you fool.
03:19:20 <alise> pikhq: No! It is integral that oerjan sees Unicode as ?.
03:19:23 <alise> It is part of our culture.
03:19:24 <pikhq> Gregor: You naïve simpleton.
03:19:25 <Gregor> pikhq: Fix your sarcasm-detector you fool.
03:19:26 <alise> Our culture is a shabby one.
03:19:39 <alise> oerjan does actually see unicode as ?
03:19:51 <Gregor> pikhq: I can never think of a /contextuälly-relevant/ diæresis when I need one.
03:20:13 <alise> STOP USING DIAERESES ON WORDS THAT DON'T EITHER HAVE HYPHENS IN THEM OR ARE OFTEN WRITTEN WITH ONE
03:20:20 <alise> presumably pikhq was meaning that oerjan should fix the encoding he *sees*, not sends, and Gregor misinterpreted this
03:20:25 <alise> the more you know ****************=>
03:20:33 <alise> ===========================*
03:20:49 <Sgeo> What a big-ass encyclopedia. What a big ass-encyclopedia. What a big assencyclopædia
03:21:20 <pikhq> What a bigassencyclopædia.
03:21:29 <Gregor> The Encyclopedia Copronomicon
03:22:16 <alise> coppro plays nomic
03:22:31 <alise> coppro is someone's son
03:22:36 <alise> coppro is a member of the pirate party
03:22:42 <alise> OMG THE COINCIDENCES
03:23:02 <alise> Gregor: Yes... yes we do :P
03:23:42 <oerjan> through long and tortured logic
03:25:33 <alise> I wonder if Eliezer Yudkowsky writing fanfiction is somehow using my brain power as CPU for the seed AI he's designed.
03:25:40 <alise> *Yudkowsky's fanfiction
03:39:50 <Gregor> http://www.gnu.org/software/plotutils/ : GNU totally does not name things in intentionally ambiguous ways.
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03:42:33 <alise> Plotu tils! Plo Tutils!
03:42:52 <augur> alise: Tutils of the Palestinian Liberation Organization?
03:51:58 <oerjan> don't mess with my tutus
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04:01:45 <Sgeo> Hmm, I only need to do one problem for this chapter
04:01:53 <Sgeo> One of the choices is knapsack stuff
04:01:57 <Sgeo> How hard could it be?
04:02:50 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
04:03:04 <alise> (EVERYONE: DO NOT NITPICK JOKES)
04:03:15 <alise> ("HOW HARD" "NP" IS FUNNY, NO MATTER -- SO SHUT UP)
04:03:24 <alise> (DO NOT SAY "BUT NP-HARD")
04:04:01 <alise> Well, technically I made no errors anyway. A joke well-executed.
04:07:45 <zzo38> My idea of a way of UTF-8 parsing: [Step 1] Control characters [Step 2] Decode numbers [Step 3] Unicode to unicode conversion [Step 4] Render output
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04:08:49 <oerjan> alise: except for the error of a paranoid implosion?
04:09:55 <alise> oerjan: Implicatory! Verisimilitude was EXTINCT; by then, at least.
04:10:51 <oerjan> implicatorial sesquipedalism
04:14:32 <alise> oerjan: Well, aren't we the orthodontist! Stricken, quickly, he fell; his loquaciousness now evaporated, he graduated losing, summa cum laude, and expired.
04:16:38 * oerjan straightens alise's teeth with the saucepan ===\__/
04:18:37 <alise> oerjan: I created your being; post hoc ergo propter hoc axiomatic, fallacies embedded into the velvet that defines you, it; machinery whirrs and purrs and ASCII saucepans confers.
04:18:44 -!- alise has left (?).
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04:20:44 <Sgeo> All homework done
04:21:15 * oerjan confers with his saucepan ===\__/ *OUCH*
04:22:29 <Gregor> Good thing about tex4ht: Makes fairly-nice HTML output from LaTeX.
04:22:42 <Gregor> Bad thing about tex4ht: Main developer is dead, last release was a few days before his death ...
04:24:22 <zzo38> Are there C compilers that cannot turn off trigraphs inside of a string? If there are some common ones, it might be necessary to add a option to Enhanced CWEB to tell it to change ? in a string to \? (and also to replace high characters with their escape sequence, if that might also be necessary)
04:27:05 <Gregor> Most C compilers have the ability to turn off trigraphs /entirely/
04:28:44 <Gregor> (In GCC they're off unless you ask for them)
04:29:07 * Sgeo vaguely hopes he doesn't get in trouble for the ticket he just submitted
04:29:18 <Sgeo> "I recently received an error message. The cause isn't important (I was experimenting
04:29:18 <Sgeo> to see if I could do something I shouldn't be able to, but was unable to do it),..."
04:29:42 <Gregor> "I'm a white-hat hacker."
04:29:45 <Gregor> "He's a hacker, lock 'im up!"
04:29:46 <alise> <Gregor> Bad thing about tex4ht: Main developer is dead, last release was a few days before his death ...
04:29:51 <alise> ... and I still can't find anywhere to put the body.
04:30:47 <Sgeo> How did he die?
04:31:12 <Gregor> How often does somebody young enough to be writing tex4ht die expectedly though :P
04:35:41 <alise> He died from latex poisoning.
04:35:48 * alise runs to #ubuntu ->
04:35:53 <alise> OERJAN CAN'T CATCH M--
04:37:30 <zzo38> If needed, you could create a TeX macro package that allows output to both DVI and HTML (and possibly also XML and other formats too if required)
04:44:48 <Gregor> zzo38: Yes, that's what tex4ht is :P (AFAIK)
04:47:57 <zzo38> Gregor: I don't think so. (And I think tex4ht is designed for LaTeX, anyways) What I meant is writing a macro package that you use commands in it that can make it work for both DVI and HTML and other formats output.
04:50:58 <alise> Gregor: So if you don't use LaTeX, watch out!
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04:54:55 <pikhq> Ah, trigraphs. The only thing worse than digraphs.
04:55:21 <pikhq> Actually. Digraphs aren't *that* bad.
04:55:28 <pikhq> Trigraphs are just head-poundingly awful.
04:55:59 <zzo38> TeX trigraphs are very useful, even though C trigraphs are bad and useless.
04:56:22 <pikhq> C digraphs are handled during tokenization, unlike trigraphs.
04:56:26 <Gregor> The only thing worse and monographs.
04:56:28 <pikhq> Making them automatically an improvement.
04:56:52 <pikhq> (yes, trigraphs are basically done via sed before compilation)
04:57:36 <Gregor> s/are/is/? Idonno, that whole sentence was grammatically dubious.
04:58:08 <zzo38> Yes, I do suppose C digraphs are better than C trigraphs in that way.
04:58:59 <pikhq> Digraphs at least don't cause completely unexpected parses.
05:00:16 <zzo38> But TeX trigraphs are a bit different, because you can use them for many purposes and you can even change how trigraphs are parsed by changing the category codes.
05:03:12 <zzo38> For example, the utfeight.tex program will convert numbers to hex and then make them into trigraphs send to output file, and then input them again (this time TeX will parse the trigraphs), in order to make definitions for all active characters which can be used as part of UTF-8 codes.
05:06:16 <augur> lovely quote from wikipedia
05:06:20 <augur> "more realistically, CERN's Large Hadron Collider is the subject of a CERN-produced rap video"
05:06:46 <zzo38> I want to make a variant of TeX in one day when I get a chance to do so. What programs would I need to do so? One change I want to add is to make a new trigraph which forces the next character to be treated as a certain character code. For example ^^xd? will make a ? which is a active character.
05:07:51 <zzo38> Another change I want to make is removing the \outer command.
05:09:02 <zzo38> And adding new kind of definitions, such as \idef \progdef \catdef
05:09:23 <alise> augur: more realistic than what? :P
05:09:50 <alise> what does \outer do zzo38?
05:10:04 <augur> more realistic than Stephen Hawking MCing maybe
05:10:22 <zzo38> alise: The \outer command prevents a command from occuring as part of a macro expansion.
05:11:00 <zzo38> (It can be worked around using \write and \input although I think it is better that the \outer command is not there at all)
05:11:49 <zzo38> Another thing I want is to allow \long to be prepended to the use of a macro instead of only allowing it prepending a definition of a macro.
05:16:30 <Sgeo> NEED SWAP SPACE
05:18:18 <zzo38> And a way to read in a list, box, and tokens, in ways that they can then be processed by other TeX codes. And a command \glueset to access the glue set value of a box.
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05:31:36 <zzo38> Such as: \convbox<hboxmacro><vboxmacro><charactermacro><gluemacro><penaltymacro><mathonmacro><mathoffmacro><kernmacro><the_box> or something like that.
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05:59:05 <zzo38> Trigraphs in TeX are even usable to create trigraphs, example: \message{^^5e^5e} --> ^
06:00:00 <zzo38> \message{^^5e^5e^21} --> !
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07:48:54 <coppro> Gregor: I am, in fact, a member of the pirate party
07:54:11 <zzo38> What do you have to do if you are a member?
07:55:06 <zzo38> What is the meaning of being a member, then?
07:55:18 <coppro> though I think they're going to try to have me chair the online meetings on the basis that I seem to be good at this thin (they're not the online ones. The president of the math society at waterloo wanted me installed as speaker after she'd known me for a week and a half)
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07:56:15 <zzo38> So maybe in future...?
07:57:01 <zzo38> coppro: O, did you ever read mathNEWS?
07:58:23 <coppro> zzo38: how do you know of mathNEWS?
07:59:15 <coppro> zzo38: also, being a member carries benefits that you might expect of any similar organization - I have a vote
07:59:19 <zzo38> I don't remember where/when I first figured out about it, or how.
07:59:47 <coppro> you've never been to UW?
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08:01:05 <zzo38> I have never been to UW.
08:01:46 <coppro> anyways, yes, I know of mathNEWS. I even wrote two articles in the most recent issue and contributed a significant portion of the profQUOTES
08:04:13 <zzo38> What did you write about?
08:05:38 <zzo38> (Actually, I found a copy of the articles now and I think I know which one you might have written)
08:07:19 <coppro> also, lol someone who reads the website..
08:07:36 <coppro> I assume that you know then about the E is for Idiot issue?
08:08:15 <zzo38> Did you write the article titled "Reminder: Games Nights Exist"? (I guess based on the information I have)
08:08:58 <coppro> that one should also be obvious if you /whois me
08:09:30 <zzo38> Yes I did use the WHOIS command. I also saw "coppro!~scshunt" so I guess, and then did WHOIS to check more
08:11:27 <zzo38> I do not know about the E is for Idiot issue. What is the date for that issue?
08:14:26 <coppro> in it there was an article entitled E is for Idiot, that got them sued
08:14:37 <coppro> because apparently it was defamatory
08:15:04 <coppro> they settled on posting an apology to their website, which they consider doing almost nothing because the website is not designed to be useful
08:15:12 <coppro> and so virtually no one reads it
08:16:15 <coppro> incidentally, pencil policy is hilariou
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08:30:28 <zzo38> I have a question about your opinion about code generation in Enhanced CWEB using interpreted C codes. The question is what commands you would find useful to be built-in that can be accessed by C interpreter, for code generation?
08:31:24 <coppro> recompiling a specific function
08:32:17 <zzo38> Can you give an example?
08:32:54 <coppro> well, suppose I have a function and change its definition; it would be nice to tell the compiler to recompile it
08:33:01 <coppro> for simple functions, even from within the interpreter itself
08:36:29 <zzo38> I don't quite understand. Can you give a more specific example of what you are trying to do?
08:48:08 <zzo38> The C compiler does not work that way? Enhanced CWEB cannot change the way the C compiler works!
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10:07:54 <Phantom_Hoover> 15:25:06 <ais523> 0.005646564 bits according to my calculator ← does lambdabot not do logs?
10:08:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, um, anything wrong with using a calculator still?
10:09:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it requires that you reach for the calculator and hit buttons on that, then type the result into the channel.
10:09:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, he didn't say he meant a physical calculator. Could have been dc or such
10:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
10:10:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hah, well some other computer based calculator then
10:12:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you know that bc was traditionally implemented in dc?
10:12:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and bc has log
10:12:32 <Vorpal> while I can't find it in dc
10:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> As part of an extra library which IIRC is written in bc.
10:13:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, still, writing an infix calculator in bc is probably indicative of multiple things in DSM
10:14:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I doubt profoundly that bc was ever written in raw dc.
10:14:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean then
10:15:07 <Vorpal> As an example, here is an implementation of the Euclidean algorithm to find the GCD:
10:15:07 <Vorpal> dc -e '??[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+p' # shortest
10:15:07 <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
10:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> ? doesn't read a line of input, it executes a line of input.
10:16:06 <Vorpal> it seems to work anyawy
10:16:20 <Phantom_Hoover> So if you have ?P it doesn't echo the line, it executes it and prints the top of the stack.
10:16:35 <Vorpal> it doesn't have ?P, it has P?
10:17:29 <Vorpal> not at all, the P prints a prompt there
10:17:56 <Phantom_Hoover> The point is that dc doesn't actually have a command to read a line of input and push it onto the stack.
10:19:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Typing "Hello, world!" into ?P just spits out a load of errors.
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10:20:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Numbers push themselves when evaluated, so you can use it for them if you don't mind exposing your program to unbuffered code.
10:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I would think bc would use dc behind the scenes when calculating things, and do parsing and such in C.
10:22:22 <Vorpal> or some other language
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15:02:24 <alise> 23:48:54 <coppro> Gregor: I am, in fact, a member of the pirate party
15:02:24 <alise> pretty sure he meant the male part
15:02:28 <alise> 23:54:11 <zzo38> What do you have to do if you are a member?
15:02:28 <alise> 23:54:23 <coppro> nothing
15:02:28 <alise> 23:55:06 <zzo38> What is the meaning of being a member, then?
15:03:12 <alise> 23:59:47 <coppro> you've never been to UW?
15:03:12 <alise> i think he's in high school
15:04:11 <alise> coppro: this "mathNEWS" is hopelessly shoddy --
15:04:13 <alise> "Indeed, vi is nothing more than a wrapper script for the command ex, which is itself a wrapper for ed"
15:04:59 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l $(which vi)
15:05:00 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-09-12 03:11 /usr/bin/vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi
15:05:00 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/vi
15:05:00 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 2010-09-12 03:11 /etc/alternatives/vi -> /usr/bin/vim.tiny
15:05:00 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /usr/bin/vim.tiny
15:05:00 <alise> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 754744 2010-04-16 14:33 /usr/bin/vim.tiny
15:05:02 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /usr/bin/ex
15:05:04 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-09-12 03:11 /usr/bin/ex -> /etc/alternatives/ex
15:05:06 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/ex
15:05:08 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 2010-09-12 03:11 /etc/alternatives/ex -> /usr/bin/vim.tiny
15:05:10 <alise> ex is a *symlink* to vi on most systems.
15:05:16 <alise> not a wrapper script. and not the other way around
15:05:24 <alise> and furthermore ex is an entirely separate editor, nothing to do with ed, merely inspired by it
15:05:46 <alise> cheater99: if you're trying to troll, it's incredibly boring and obvious; if you're actually serious, you're just stupid
15:05:53 <alise> (if you're trying to make a joke, it isn't funny)
15:06:00 <cheater99> how could you ever think i was serious with that?
15:07:05 <cheater99> i'm trying to reconstruct the thought process
15:07:19 <alise> well, you've said similarly silly things before :)
15:07:21 <cheater99> was it "wow, that guy cheater99 TOTALLY doesn't know the difference between ed and ex!"
15:07:37 <alise> also, i'm *fairly* sure they're just
15:07:43 <alise> (a) using a lenient definition of "script", and
15:07:57 <alise> (b) apparently not required to actually look at ex to decide what it does
15:08:17 <alise> (The whole article is an unfunny joke; it provides an "implementation" of ed in Python that just reads input up until a "q" and outputs ?.)
15:08:24 <cheater99> also, vim is just a wrapper around vi with some added bash scripts
15:08:26 <alise> I'm fairly sure the introductory sentences are serious.
15:08:32 <cheater99> and emacs is a wrapper around screen and vim.
15:09:06 <cheater99> and, if you hadn't heard yet, erlang is just a wrapper around lisp
15:09:24 <cheater99> however, lisp is a wrapper around haskell, and haskell is a wrapper around erlang
15:09:29 <cheater99> no one has solved that problem yet
15:11:40 <alise> erlang is also a wrapper around BANCStar
15:13:38 <alise> coppro: ok i take it back, prof quotes more than makes up for it (i will not support your insipid logotype capitalisation)
15:13:58 <alise> hmm i seem to use insipid to mean much more than it actually does :)
15:15:16 <alise> "I was giving a tour of the observatory one day and ended up explaining how the stars are actually like the Sun, just really far away. It was great to catch people up from the 15th century." ;; i have had to do this more than i would like
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15:27:49 <cheater99> alise: see, you got the hang of it
15:28:45 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:29:08 <alise> Huh, apparently MI2's soundtrack WAS actually designed for MT-32.
15:29:16 <alise> Maybe it's just the intro music that sounds a bit odd.
15:30:50 <alise> cheater99: sure, just like the MI1 soundtrack
15:30:55 <alise> and all the Space Quest soundtracks
15:31:03 <cheater99> oh, i was thinking mission impossible 2
15:31:13 <oerjan> <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version <-- IF YOU SAY SO
15:31:16 <alise> Space Quest -- was it 5? -- even showed "SPACE QUEST" or something on the MT-32's LCD.
15:31:20 <alise> I have an actual MT-32.
15:31:25 <alise> Unfortunately: hard to wire up to a computer. Very hard.
15:31:31 <cheater99> do you have a roland sound canvas?
15:31:35 <alise> And the analogue background noise is endearing but noticeable.
15:31:41 <alise> cheater99: no, I don't; and because it just has audio ports
15:31:53 <alise> and not much wants to send the right stuff down the line...
15:32:22 <oerjan> `addquote <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:32:23 <alise> cheater99: I *have* got it to play MIDI -- but in actual audio software only.
15:32:41 <oerjan> hey wait HackEgo is broken :(
15:32:51 <alise> oerjan: no, just very slow
15:32:55 <alise> give it a few minutes
15:33:07 <oerjan> alise: but it answered No output above :(
15:33:09 <cheater99> alise: still don't know why it's difficult to wire it up?
15:33:27 <alise> cheater99: I explained:
15:33:33 <alise> cheater99: It has no computery ports, only audio ports.
15:33:34 <HackEgo> 233|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:33:44 <alise> Getting software to send MT-32 data down the audio line is non-trivial.
15:33:47 <oerjan> ah just random failure
15:33:59 <HackEgo> 232|<Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
15:34:06 <alise> cheater99: (Especially the special remapping ones where they change the entire sound, which a *lot* of games do.)
15:34:15 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:34:16 <alise> cheater99: I'm sure it's *possible*, but you sure as heck can't get ScummVM to do it.
15:34:22 <HackEgo> 233|<Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:34:22 <alise> Which is basically the only reason to do it.
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15:34:53 <oerjan> wait now it _reused_ the number D:
15:34:54 <alise> cheater99: Pirated MT-32 ROMs (or you could *manually* remove them... !) plus the emulator does a very good job.
15:35:00 <alise> Still doesn't sound analogue though.
15:35:05 <HackEgo> 233|<Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:35:27 <oerjan> alise: 233 for both Vorpal and last Phantom_Hoover quote
15:35:37 <oerjan> `addquote <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:35:53 <HackEgo> 234|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:36:12 <oerjan> Gregor: HackEgo's quote database has some _weird_ bugs
15:36:16 <HackEgo> 231|<Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that
15:36:22 <HackEgo> 232|<Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
15:36:36 <HackEgo> 233|<Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
15:36:44 <oerjan> i think HackEgo may have something in the DSM
15:36:47 <HackEgo> 234|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
15:36:54 <alise> oerjan: duplicate quote
15:36:55 <cheater99> i suggest we start supporting rational numbers in the primary key.
15:36:59 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:37:11 <alise> let's see if i remember how to use revert
15:37:35 <alise> i thought your addquote line was actually one of my quote requests
15:37:39 <oerjan> alise: HackEgo _overwrote_ the original 233 it seems
15:38:19 <oerjan> it looks like all the quotes finally got in, anyhow
15:40:44 <alise> the end of LeChuck's Revelation is sweet
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15:46:04 <oerjan> <cheater99> and, if you hadn't heard yet, erlang is just a wrapper around lisp <-- ITYM PROLOG. sheesh don't you know ANYTHING?
15:46:28 <Sgeo> Dear whatever is causing window borders etc. to just die: Fuck you
15:46:46 * oerjan swats cheater99 -----###
15:46:53 <oerjan> ALSO, I'M NOT YOUR MOMMY
15:47:17 <cheater99> the worst piece of software in existence
15:47:31 <alise> compiz is terribly designed but i have an intel gpu so it just works :P
15:47:58 <alise> ok so i probably just haven't given it enough time :p
15:48:13 * Sgeo likes his visual effects
15:48:23 <Sgeo> Not enough to deal with this, though
15:48:32 <alise> Sgeo: oh, what? you have the wobbly resize and everything turned on?
15:48:36 * Sgeo wonders if this is also somehow related to Firefox crashing
15:48:40 <Sgeo> No, just the defaults
15:48:47 <alise> Normal or whatever's above that
15:49:11 <alise> then the only visual effect is... minimising and restoring
15:49:29 <alise> well, shadows and non-active window semitransparency
15:49:41 <alise> (barely noticeable effect)
15:49:50 <Sgeo> My terminal stopped being transparent!
15:49:58 <Sgeo> Meh, I'll live
15:50:04 <alise> TRANSPARENT TERMINALS ARE THE WORST FUCKING IDEA EVER
15:50:10 <alise> like translucent fucking paper
15:50:22 <alise> hope you feel cool
15:50:25 <alise> "Roland MT-32 and CM-32L control and pcm roms for use with DOSBox and Munt" ;; yesplz
15:50:35 <oerjan> but but then you can spy on people when you're reading!
15:54:18 <alise> [[The next thing we have is "Movies That Don't Have Sequels" Movie Night! We're showing Pirates of the Caribbean and The Matrix.]]
15:57:34 * oerjan tends to see Highlander included in such lists too
15:57:45 <alise> I DON'T WANT THE FUCKING SPECIAL EDITION I WANT THE ORIGINAL OCTOBER 1990 SOMI
15:59:10 * Sgeo only saw approx. the ending of The Matrix, and the two sequels
15:59:52 <alise> you've watched two terrible movies
15:59:55 <alise> and spoiled a really good one
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16:11:39 <alise> oerjan: relatedly, Games That Don't Have More Than N Sequels
16:11:40 <Sgeo> Notifications are no longer semitransparent
16:11:56 * oerjan shoots at the zombies following Sgeo
16:12:01 <alise> Games That Don't Have More Than 2 (or 1 if you're boring and anal or Ron Gilbert) Sequels: Monkey Island
16:12:13 <Sgeo> And they're completely invisible when the cursor is over them
16:12:17 <alise> Games That Probably Don't Have More Than 1 Sequel For Someone: Fallout
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16:19:58 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/zPEGs.jpg
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16:31:28 <Sgeo> It's a magic dance magic dance magic dance
16:31:34 * Sgeo starts singing
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16:33:11 <impomatic> It's just starting to rain here :-(
16:37:34 <alise> Wherever you go...
16:37:35 <alise> On sea or on land,
16:37:35 <alise> You can't ever hide
16:37:35 <alise> From Largo LeGrande!
16:40:56 <Vorpal> <HackEgo> 234|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version <-- I was quoting wikipedia
16:41:13 <Vorpal> orejan completely fails
16:41:20 <Vorpal> I did not claim it was easier to read
16:41:23 <HackEgo> 231|<Vorpal> pikhq, Okinawan? Wtf is that
16:41:25 <Vorpal> I quoted wikipedia saying so
16:41:40 <alise> yeah oerjan realised that you dipshit
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16:43:52 <alise> http://miwiki.net/images/Mi2se_comparison.jpg ;; what did the redraw do to the poor man's nose...
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17:22:33 <olsner> Vorpal: the quote is funnier that way, stop complaining :)
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17:29:01 <Sgeo> Which is more line-noise-y? J or dc?
17:29:34 <alise> neither are line-noisey.
17:29:37 <alise> you have clearly never seen line noise
17:29:49 <alise> also, J code is more comprehensible than dc code.
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17:58:44 <alise> "Boo hoo." The libraries are at least viewable-source.
17:58:49 <alise> Feel free to reimplement it...
17:59:19 <alise> http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/zakmckracken/zak-fmtowns.png ;; Zak McKracken and the Alien Mindbenders, English FM Towns version
17:59:24 <alise> http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/zakmckracken/zak-fmtownsj.png ;; Japanese FM Towns version.
17:59:42 <alise> (Real screenshots.)
18:00:41 <alise> Yes, yes they did.
18:00:48 <olsner> alise: how does line noise look?
18:01:03 <zeotrope> http://github.com/zeotrope/j7-src
18:01:15 <alise> olsner: not like a bunch of letters, a few punctuation chars and a lot of []s!
18:01:29 <olsner> but more like perl code?
18:01:50 <alise> olsner: a lot of control characters, most likely
18:01:50 <zeotrope> an old version of the J interpreter
18:01:57 <alise> zeotrope: ah, the first version?
18:02:03 <alise> no ... the first version was one file
18:02:14 <alise> zeotrope: where did you get this?
18:02:19 <alise> zeotrope: also, fuck formatting changes
18:02:21 <Gregor> Windows CE is also "viewable-source"
18:02:32 <alise> zeotrope: awesome. now undo your lame changes :D
18:02:38 <alise> Gregor: no, as in you can download it freely and it has the files right there
18:02:40 <alise> and you can change them
18:02:47 <alise> you just can't redistribute changes.
18:02:53 <alise> distributing a patch should be legal
18:03:02 <alise> so... whoo qmail-style development
18:03:13 <alise> the only actually closed-source bit is the interpreter itself and the Java UI
18:03:31 <alise> i think a lot of the forms (UI) stuff is part of the lib too so that'd be sourced as well
18:03:38 <Gregor> People who use shitty licenses are the worst kind of people :P
18:03:47 <zeotrope> in j7.01 this will be the case
18:03:58 <zeotrope> the gtk and web frontend will be written in J
18:04:01 <alise> Gregor: there is no license, it's freeware
18:04:05 <alise> zeotrope: omg, there's gonna be a gtk frontend?
18:04:18 <alise> K has cooler UI stuff though ;)
18:04:40 <alise> K4/K5 are abominations of databasery :<
18:04:44 <zeotrope> too bad its license sucks even more
18:04:58 <alise> nsl still has the binaries :P
18:05:09 <zeotrope> don't those binaries have a time limit?
18:05:12 <alise> although it's not in a linked path
18:05:27 <alise> or at least... i never found a limitation
18:05:35 <alise> linux, windows and i think solaris or something weird like that
18:05:40 <alise> but the windows binaries in wine work way better than the linux ones
18:05:48 <alise> zeotrope: as i said, pretty sure it's in an unlinked directory
18:05:55 <alise> the megabreds guys linked me
18:07:01 <alise> zeotrope: wait, why will it be 701?
18:07:12 <alise> lots of unreleased/pay-only revisions?
18:07:28 <alise> or just a weird versioning scheme?
18:07:40 <zeotrope> I guess, I'm not sure how they are named
18:07:55 <zeotrope> since the old interpreter I showed you is called version 7
18:08:00 <pikhq> Slightly silly yet probably good idea for running Windows programs that don't work well in WINE (old games using obscure Direct2D features, for instance): have a Windows VM for qemu in QCOW. Create a new QCOW image using that one as the base. Install.
18:08:00 <alise> http://www.kx.com/a/ ;; here's a big directory of (official) k stuff
18:08:06 <alise> there might be a k3 binray there somewhere
18:08:14 <pikhq> Voila, per-app virtual machines not using unreasonable space.
18:09:06 <alise> pikhq: Or just use Xen to virtualise Windows! MWAHAHAHA--
18:09:56 <pikhq> alise: Well, to do that, you need to be using a recent CPU, and qemu built to use Xen.
18:09:59 <alise> zeotrope: i'm trying to find k3 now :)
18:10:07 <alise> pikhq: OR JUST USE PLAIN XEN MWAHAHA
18:10:21 <zeotrope> I love Arthur Whitney's C style
18:10:22 <alise> zeotrope: if all else fails i can try and get in touch with the guy who linked me.
18:10:49 <pikhq> alise: No source license handy, sadly.
18:11:06 <alise> zeotrope: have you seen the k->english code?
18:11:20 <alise> zeotrope: i'll try and find it
18:11:30 <alise> zeotrope: basically it replaces verbs with what they do and does a few adjective changes
18:11:39 <alise> especially as the code itself is incomprehensible :P
18:11:57 <alise> zeotrope: to a mortal
18:12:05 <Gregor> pikhq: Have fun fighting Windows update.
18:12:13 <zeotrope> I find J quite readable, but K pushes it with the overloading
18:12:20 <pikhq> Gregor: Here's the thing: we use Windows 2000 for it. THERE ARE NO UPDATES
18:12:25 <alise> zeotrope: tbh i've written a bit of k myself using the manual
18:12:29 <alise> zeotrope: the gui stuff is amazingly cool
18:12:30 <pikhq> Or 95, depending on what works better.
18:12:39 <Gregor> pikhq: Have fun getting hax0rd ;)
18:12:44 <alise> zeotrope: every value has properties
18:12:52 <alise> Gregor: yeah cuz you'd put it on the net of course.
18:13:02 <pikhq> Gregor: No known vulnerabilities for a fully-patched version of either, because NOBODY GIVES A SHIT.
18:13:06 <alise> zeotrope: like every value has its own dictionary...directory...hash table
18:13:10 <alise> and in fact every value has a path to it from the root
18:13:10 <pikhq> Well, except for in Internet Explorer.
18:13:13 <alise> an object filesystem
18:13:14 <pikhq> But who uses that shit?
18:13:18 <alise> anyway, every object has below it a GUI directory
18:13:26 <alise> where you specify what kind of control it should show as and actions and the like
18:13:36 <alise> and then you can have lists, and specify how they should show, as a form or a spreadsheet or whatever
18:13:38 <pikhq> Gregor: And anyways: totally totally behind iptables, even if it *is* on the net.
18:13:38 <alise> and then you just show them
18:13:44 <zeotrope> I vaguely remember that, it was called a K-tree or something
18:13:57 <alise> http://www.nsl.com/k/view.k ;; K tree viewer :P
18:14:07 <alise> the blah..x stuff is the gui stuff
18:14:39 <alise> http://www.nsl.com/papers/spreadsheet.htm spreadsheets are stupidly simple since it's basically built-in :P
18:14:59 <alise> zeotrope: anyway windows is unquestionably the best platform for using K on, WINE works fine too.
18:17:25 <zeotrope> why must all the modern APLs be closed
18:17:43 <alise> THE MOST TOTALLY AWESOME APL DERIVATIVE EVER
18:17:50 <alise> haha why not? i sort of agree but
18:17:53 <alise> interested in hearing your reasoning
18:18:00 <alise> A+ amuses me because of the ... conventional libraries
18:18:04 <alise> also, nine parameters bullshit
18:18:24 <alise> but it's more APLthentic :P
18:18:28 <zeotrope> and it lacks a lot of "modern" stuff
18:18:56 <zeotrope> but even semantics of the language
18:19:46 <alise> zeotrope: grah, you have got me looking for k3!
18:19:55 <alise> wait, exceptions in what sense?
18:20:25 <alise> as in non-local control flow?
18:20:29 <zeotrope> but anything that applies to APL
18:20:32 <alise> non-local, imperative control flow?
18:20:38 <alise> i'd say that's not a thing to brag about having!
18:20:50 <alise> i know what exceptions are
18:20:57 <alise> they're still non-local, imperative control flow
18:21:03 <alise> which breaks like 3 out of 3 rules of how array programming works
18:21:19 <alise> (functional, not imperative, no "control flow" as such)
18:21:29 <alise> zeotrope: not that useful imo.
18:21:37 <alise> ok that i'll grant
18:23:23 <zeotrope> hmm A+ has a lot of things I never knew..
18:24:45 <zeotrope> or does it still use APL bracket syntax
18:24:57 <alise> zeotrope: k has no rank :)
18:25:29 <zeotrope> generalizing a hard concept into one operator
18:25:32 <alise> zeotrope: no, k literally has no replacement for it
18:25:35 <alise> you just don't do that >:)
18:25:52 <alise> as far as i understand; i may be wrong
18:26:20 <zeotrope> from what I have seen of K code
18:26:26 <alise> IS THAT AN INSULT MY FRIEND
18:28:30 <zeotrope> that's K for sorting strings by length
18:28:45 <zeotrope> it appears that #:' does each length
18:28:58 <zeotrope> so there must be some sort of selection
18:29:15 <alise> it's just magic so there
18:30:32 <zeotrope> J version is better imo: (/: #&>)
18:30:51 <alise> you'd say that, Jacist
18:30:56 <alise> which sounds like racist, coincidence?
18:43:25 <alise> zeotrope: btw http://www.nsl.com/papers/instant.htm, starts out normal before he starts freaking transmitting code to be executed and then *editing objects that result and re-sending them*
18:43:28 <alise> you may have already seen it
18:43:39 <alise> not sure exactly how secure it is :P
18:45:35 <zeotrope> I'm impressed at how much K stuff there is
18:45:48 <alise> zeotrope: most of it his :P
18:46:04 <alise> what's his name again, i've forgotten
18:47:42 <alise> zeotrope: http://www.nsl.com/links.html he has quite an esolang passion if you grep /Esoteric/
18:47:50 <alise> also there's some esoteric language implementations on nsl.com...
18:48:09 <alise> unlambda, jot, zot, 01, 10, befunge-93, false, befreak, brainfuck
18:50:21 <alise> zeotrope: if olegfink was online i'd just ask him for the link
18:51:28 <alise> zeotrope: is there a specific J/K oleg?
18:51:31 <alise> I suppose it may be.
18:51:35 <alise> http://nsl.com/k/excel.k ;; excel v1
18:51:37 <alise> http://nsl.com/k/excel/excel2.k ;; excel v2
18:51:39 <alise> WHAT NOW MICROSOFT
18:52:12 <alise> zeotrope: see bottom of page for actual VB macros for excel :D
18:52:18 <alise> to use with k for ... i have no idea what this does
18:52:25 <alise> http://nsl.com/k/excel/
18:52:32 <alise> maybe k.xls holds the key
18:55:12 <zeotrope> k.xls has a macro called kload, I'm assuming this is an interface to excel
18:55:49 <alise> zeotrope: i think it's two-way?? I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS THIS
18:56:03 <alise> the k obvs parses formulas...
18:58:42 <alise> http://nsl.com/k/wolfram.k
18:58:54 <alise> in which steven rewrites A New Kind of Science in three lines
18:59:01 <alise> then gives it a GUI in three
18:59:05 <alise> well, basically two
19:02:02 <alise> cheater99: we have cared about J/K for a while.
19:02:21 <alise> a year or two in fact
19:02:28 <alise> zeotrope: http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k ;; the ->english
19:02:40 <alise> http://nsl.com/papers/kisntlisp.htm seems to imply it turns
19:02:45 <alise> +(#:'=v[;1];?v[;1])
19:02:46 <cheater99> and are you gonna suddenly scream out JUST KIDDING!!
19:02:46 <alise> flip(count each group v[;1];unique v[;1])
19:02:55 <alise> that would be stupid.
19:03:01 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
19:03:26 <cheater99> but because of that, it would also be completely unexpected. which would make it smart again.
19:03:44 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:04:47 * alise is COLS AND HEARTLESS
19:05:17 <zeotrope> there is a similar one in J, converts J to "english"
19:05:34 <cheater99> alise: do you run a local instance of squid proxy?
19:06:05 <alise> cheater99: do you?
19:09:00 <cheater99> it works perfectly for fixing my internet woes
19:09:12 <cheater99> i use mobile internet (temporarily) and they have this transparent proxy
19:09:24 <alise> i used mobile internet for over a month
19:09:31 <cheater99> it minifies html and recompresses images, and sometimes it returns empty responses in error
19:09:36 <alise> it didn't compress images though or any of that bullshit
19:09:40 <cheater99> squid has an option for retrying that
19:09:43 <alise> just had a content filter, easily removed
19:09:46 <alise> (you just call up)
19:09:55 <cheater99> it's great for when you use multiple browsers
19:10:00 <cheater99> and want to share a cache between them
19:10:13 <cheater99> also allows webpages to be prefetched
19:18:20 <cheater99> however, it seems to be fucking up dns too
19:18:32 <cheater99> so i get squid complaining that there are no dns records for q.ebaystatic.com.
19:18:40 <cheater99> and i have to think about getting a dns caching proxy too
19:18:51 <alise> http://www.logarithmic.net/ghost.xhtml ;; click "random" a lot
19:19:31 <cheater99> alise: how come you're all into diagrams suddenly?
19:19:38 <alise> cheater99: er, I am?
19:19:42 <alise> what else have i said about diagrams?
19:19:50 <cheater99> you were posting some diagram game last week i think
19:20:15 <cheater99> where you had to come up with the longest interconnected line or something like that and had hexagonal tiles
19:20:47 <alise> you must be thinking of someone else
19:22:32 <alise> 'a aC C', 'a bC D', 'b aD C', 'b bD D', 'cacAAA', 'dacBBB', 'cbcBBB', 'dbcBBB', 'cadAAA', 'dadBBB', 'cbdBBB', 'dbdAAA', colors=['#fff', '#000', '#888', '#888', '#888', '#888', '#fff', '#000', '#000', '#000', '#fff', '#000', '#000', '#fff']
19:22:35 <alise> a tileset implementing rule 110
19:22:54 <alise> colors doesn't work with the web version
19:23:25 <cheater99> so i wonder when his program knows that a tileset is "solved"
19:23:40 <alise> when it's filled the whole field, which is finite, presumably
19:23:45 <cheater99> i mean this isn't regular at all that i know of: '11 1 ', '111 1 '
19:23:51 <alise> cheater99: it's random
19:24:04 <cheater99> but sometimes it does backtracking
19:24:05 <alise> which is why you get a different one each time
19:24:10 <cheater99> and i don't know when it decides to do that
19:24:13 <alise> cheater99: presumably if it figures out it can't fit something somewhere
19:24:37 <cheater99> maybe possibly not terminating? 'dDDDd-', 'ddDd-D', 'ddd--D'
19:25:41 <alise> cheater99: it may be impossible to do, or simply take a very long time
19:26:15 <cheater99> but given that i'm only on a centrino, it's relatively NP-hard.
19:27:48 <alise> cheater99: ... wat
19:27:58 <alise> worst abuse of NP-hard ever :D
19:28:23 <cheater99> it's np-hard-to-disprove-on-a-slow-cpu
19:33:35 <alise> cheater99: wow he included ghost diagrams in his phd thesis
19:33:43 <alise> http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/thesis chapter 7 apparently
19:33:52 <alise> holy 60 megabyte pdf batman :)
19:34:21 <alise> i can't get the hang of making nice patterns yet :(
19:36:34 <alise> cheater99: oh the same guy also wrote a GIMP plugin that does that awesome texture synthesis stuff
19:36:42 <alise> i.e. "oh look i just removed this object by coping some of the sky" and the like
19:37:29 <cheater99> you mean the least-power-path thing?
19:38:18 <alise> cheater99: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer
19:38:22 <alise> see the example pages
19:38:45 <alise> photoshop recently introduced this and everyone called it magical
19:38:55 <alise> resynthesizer is slightly less polished but still pretty good
19:39:05 <alise> also part of his Ph.D. xD
19:40:18 * alise , in a stunning burst of insanity, decides to code a stupid half-wiki
19:40:53 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
19:42:13 <cheater99> i like this a looot: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer/theming
19:42:39 <Sgeo> I can't seem to press Enter!
19:42:47 <Sgeo> On ShareKeyboard
19:43:31 <alise> why are browsers so stupid that they can't embed a program inside a page
19:43:33 <alise> without like java crap
19:43:52 <SgeoN1> This is a test, this is only a test. ShareKeyboard is pretty awesome. Except for the lack of an Enter key... help me help me I can't say anything
19:44:16 <cheater99> alise: every technology used by the internet is a failed piece of crap
19:44:27 <alise> foo = document.getElementById("editor").runApplication(preferences.editor, "-stdin"); foo.write(sometext);
19:44:33 <alise> reasons why this doesn't work:
19:44:36 <alise> - shitty OSes are architectured shittily
19:44:45 <alise> - LOL EVERYBODY FAILS AT MAKING A SECURITY SYSTEM SO WE JUST STOP PEOPLE DOING USEFUL THINGS
19:44:51 <SgeoN1> I had to switch to stock keyboard to send that... although actually, in landscape mode, there's a share button
19:47:30 <alise> cheater99: ... so instead i'll just implement my own editor component! BECAUSE I CLEARLY WANT TO DO THAT
19:47:40 <alise> fuck the web. fuck it fuck it
19:48:01 <alise> i made some wiki software once that popped open your editor to edit pages, that was quite nice but only worked locally...
19:48:24 <alise> cheater99: and here's the monstrosity that did it:
19:48:37 <alise> it was a pre-rendered dealie
19:48:51 <alise> the edit link linked to a *localhost* with ?page=foo
19:48:59 <alise> that listened for requests
19:49:04 <alise> and opened your editor
19:49:16 <alise> so you'd click the link on your external server, which would bounce back to localhost, which would open your editor and redirect you back
19:49:21 <alise> so you had an "edit" link that worked
19:49:37 <alise> then you edited, saved, and pressed whatever hotkey you had to build and upload the site
19:49:47 <alise> the code was a bit of a mess though, for the building bit
19:49:53 <SgeoN1> Testing with WifiKeyboard, this is a test this is only a test.
19:49:59 <SgeoN1> This is much, much better for IRC
19:50:24 <SgeoN1> Can't see the input on the computer screen, though
19:50:29 <SgeoN1> But I can seem to backspace
19:50:36 <alise> "Male infertility gene discovered" --BBC News
19:50:53 <alise> NATURAL SELECTION: THE MORE YOU KNOW =============*
19:51:33 <SgeoN1> So in Game mode, backspace only sends one backspace
19:52:10 <SgeoN1> Love, love, is a verb, love is a doing word
19:54:10 <SgeoN1> I think this will be useful at schoo, so I don't have to login to, say, Gmail to respond using a decent keybiard
19:54:25 <SgeoN1> Hmm, I'm not even looking at my phone right now, so don't know if I'm typoing
19:54:33 <SgeoN1> Since Wifi Keyboard doesn't show current input
19:56:56 <SgeoN1> It occurs to me that it's not the most secure thing to use at school :/
19:57:21 <alise> cheater99: How do you name things? I'm wondering if there is actually a trick t it.
19:57:58 <cheater99> alise: in a greenfield project, in a legacy project, or when reverse-engineering?
19:57:58 <SgeoN1> Well, if someone else starts typing, the thing will complain about multiple input
19:58:23 <alise> cheater99: Just... naming a spare-time project. Greenfield, sure.
19:58:32 <alise> I don't have any other kinds of projects. :p
19:58:54 <cheater99> i thought you meant code objects (classes, functions, variables)
19:59:07 <cheater99> well then, i usually try to figure out if there has been some form of inspiration for this
19:59:31 <cheater99> i try to find the use for what i'm doing, and then express the gist of that
19:59:32 <alise> i'm thinking maybe bonsai but that's a very tenuous link
19:59:37 <alise> (bonsai trees are small, my software is small!)
19:59:44 <alise> seems almost like i should save that name for something better.
20:00:14 <cheater99> what software are you trying to name?
20:00:48 <alise> it's a pseudo-wiki (one user, designed for maintaining non-wiki-looking things)
20:00:56 <alise> primarily the byproduct of my serve NIH syndrome
20:03:18 <alise> cheater99: thinking about it, bonsai has a more tenuous link -- the links of pages to each other sort of form a branching tree
20:03:26 <alise> it's a graph, but whatever, you can imagine a link visualisation as a tree
20:04:11 <cheater99> you've got a problem i see in many coders right now
20:04:19 <cheater99> you are thinking of the code and not about what it does
20:04:32 <cheater99> i was doing a code review with this girl last friday
20:04:34 <alise> you mean i'm thinking too technically? dude, it's for my own use.
20:04:38 <cheater99> and i ask her what the application does
20:04:50 <cheater99> so she says "the calculation class blah blah blah"
20:04:50 <alise> here's what it does: it maintains a website.
20:04:57 <alise> <alise> it's a pseudo-wiki (one user, designed for maintaining non-wiki-looking things)
20:05:00 <alise> that's pretty non-codey
20:05:03 <cheater99> so i tell her ok, but i don't want to know about that, i want to know what the application is for
20:05:24 <cheater99> "yes, you build up a configuration object and then pass it and blah blah blah"
20:05:35 <cheater99> no, i don't want to know about any classes
20:05:53 <cheater99> on the most basic level, what does the application do, in the eyes of a user?
20:06:03 <cheater99> "it is a collection of form text input fields."
20:06:30 <alise> but seriously, i didn't do that.
20:07:09 <cheater99> what's the difference if it's for your own use or for someone else's use?
20:07:20 <cheater99> there are big benefits to keeping projects public-ready
20:07:27 <cheater99> 1. it makes you finish them so they work
20:07:40 <cheater99> 2. it makes you write the important bits like manuals etc which makes you actually rethink usefulness
20:07:52 <cheater99> 3. it makes you package it nicely even if for your own use (useful down the line)
20:08:01 <cheater99> 4. it makes you think differently about what's necessary
20:09:53 <alise> cheater99: yeah, uh, you're no fun at all.
20:14:26 <alise> cheater99: but infinite readers
20:14:41 <cheater99> so you've got a set of information which you maintain
20:14:56 <alise> i already know what i want it to do
20:14:58 <alise> i just want to name it.
20:15:42 <alise> cheater99: not really
20:15:50 <alise> it's just a website with an edit button for one person :P
20:16:02 <cheater99> and you make it nice and fine for yourself
20:16:18 <cheater99> others can look at it but you're the only one who builds it and understands it
20:16:31 <cheater99> that's a real connotation with a banzai
20:16:39 <alise> "banzai" does not mean what you think it is
20:16:41 <cheater99> since every banzai belongs to only one person
20:16:52 <alise> it means "ten thousand years".
20:16:54 <alise> you mean "bonsai".
20:17:30 <cheater99> i have misspelled it because xchat underlined bonzai and not banzai :(
20:18:40 <alise> that's because it's bonsai
20:18:44 <alise> the more you know =========++*
20:19:16 <alise> anyway bonsai it is then :P
20:19:22 <alise> now for the even harder part, deciding a language!
20:19:26 <alise> can you tell i never get anything done?
20:21:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:22:56 <alise> cheater99: i became too theoretical to appreciate haskell :)
20:23:11 <alise> and then went so crazy that i decided to forget type systems even existed
20:23:16 <alise> i am now a lot less disturbed
20:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, no, we aren't on a Haskell vs C slanging match, are we?
20:23:37 <cheater99> ugh, how do you figure out your dns server now?
20:23:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: nope
20:23:45 <alise> cheater99 is on the haskell side
20:23:55 <alise> i'm on my own side
20:24:06 <alise> (<alise> cheater99: i became too theoretical to appreciate haskell :) <alise> and then went so crazy that i decided to forget type systems even existed <alise> i am now a lot less disturbed)
20:24:17 <alise> cheater99: /etc/resolv.conf?
20:24:20 <cheater99> alise: write it in something that has a natural impedance match for that
20:24:32 <alise> cheater99: wonderful advice; useless, of course, but...
20:24:40 <alise> I might write it in rc :)
20:24:46 <cheater99> i.e. natural graph structures, and taxonomies
20:24:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: because the things you see... in type theory... they scare you
20:24:52 <alise> you can never truly be whole again
20:25:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh yeah you start becoming convinced that you should base a computational model on category theory
20:25:13 <alise> rather than type theory
20:25:21 <alise> that's usually when the cluster headaches start
20:25:34 <cheater99> does it get automagically updated by dialup software?
20:25:44 <alise> cheater99: DHCP will update it (I forget the client name)
20:26:05 <alise> cheater99: you may simply want to remove all write bits from the file if the dialup thing does it
20:26:08 <alise> cheater99: here NetworkManager sets it
20:26:15 <alise> cheater99: btw NetworkManager can connect to a lot of 3G modems
20:26:20 <alise> to avoid the shitty dialup software
20:26:21 <alise> highly recommended
20:26:40 <alise> Ubuntu, at least, has a nice wizard for it
20:26:43 <alise> if you go to edit connections
20:26:51 <alise> i bet you can set a custom dns server after that too
20:29:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit I want to know the forbidden secrets of type theory alise.
20:29:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: IA IA IA
20:31:19 <alise> I wish wiki syntaxes sucked less.
20:31:24 <alise> Solution: MAKE THEM SUCK LESS
20:31:47 <alise> {tag ...} is a tag. Maybe I'll have keyword arguments.
20:32:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If a tree falls in a forest and noöne is around to hear it?
20:32:21 <alise> cheater99: what distro?
20:33:13 <alise> cheater99: uninstall crappy dialup software, right click network icon, edit connections, mobile broadband, add, hope for the best
20:33:20 <alise> it has a surprising range of support
20:33:22 <alise> and usually Just Works
20:33:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Indeed not.
20:33:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But I was implying their equal shittiness.
20:34:08 <alise> I've edited TV Tropes exactly once.
20:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, at least MediaWiki doesn't have 4 different kinds of link formats.
20:34:33 <alise> When you go to edit it tells you not to say This Troper on the article page because they're making the pages not discussions any more.
20:34:38 <alise> Which is Wikipedian bullshit.
20:34:49 <alise> Clearly they have never browsed WardsWiki.
20:35:22 <Phantom_Hoover> The discussion does get a little out of hand in both places...
20:35:24 <cheater99> alise: i don't think i need to uninstall crappy dialup software
20:35:36 <cheater99> alise: btw, i have ditched network manager for wicd
20:35:40 <alise> cheater99: if it's handling connections you probably do.
20:35:46 <alise> cheater99: also, i doubt wicd can do this.
20:35:57 <alise> cheater99: networkmanager works fine :P
20:36:04 <alise> better than shitty dialup software for sure
20:36:05 <cheater99> the wifi was dying all the time with nm
20:36:53 <alise> cheater99: anyway just make your changes to /etc/resolv.conf, -w it
20:37:25 <cheater99> let's see how it works with retries
20:37:52 <alise> cheater99: djb software is great if you already have djb software, otherwise it brings along a lot of /services stuff :D
20:38:26 <cheater99> (i go through the package manager and install 100s of packages.)
20:38:55 <cheater99> it's great because it shows you software you never thought existed
20:39:14 <alise> i don't want to know about more software, the existing set gives me enough pain :)
20:39:20 <cheater99> alise are you into audio stuff at all?
20:40:43 <alise> i'd like to do it, but i have no particular talent for it.
20:40:58 <cheater99> define "have no particular talent"
20:40:58 <alise> i have discovered this lack of talent an amusing number of times, and like to blame software for it.
20:41:10 <alise> cheater99: i have no particular inspiration for what to do to produce pleasing sounds.
20:41:43 <alise> cheater99: i also have the extreme lack of patience to learn, say, an instrument.
20:42:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way Look Around You lapses into horror at random.
20:42:11 <cheater99> it doesn't have to be about mastering finger techniques
20:42:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: which episode?
20:42:26 <cheater99> the cool thing about this stuff is that there's a lot of technology backing it
20:42:33 <cheater99> and a lot about it is highly esoteric
20:42:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Calcium specifically, but the Boîte Diabolique also counts.
20:42:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The Helvetica scenario.
20:43:00 <alise> cheater99: i have this wonderful plan to create a wonderful music-composition software based on vague bits of interacting code; it will never happen
20:43:19 <cheater99> cellular automaton music has been done to death
20:43:23 <alise> cheater99: not that
20:43:36 <alise> imagine a typical horizontal-is-time, vertical-is-tracks thing, but instead of waveforms it's little snippets of code
20:43:51 <alise> and there's a huge library of, say, sine waves, midi, raw waveform, etc. functions
20:44:01 <alise> and filters that do effects and the like
20:44:03 <alise> and you stack them with code
20:44:12 <alise> cheater99: i've never seen anyone input code into a tracker
20:44:33 <cheater99> it's just a few most important things
20:44:35 <alise> yeah, the code i'm thinking of isn't :P
20:44:45 <alise> you'd have, say, a whole "riff" in one block of code
20:45:28 <alise> cheater99: it also doesn't help that simple music bores me
20:45:29 <Phantom_Hoover> <cheater99> cellular automaton music has been done to death ← it has?
20:45:39 <alise> and making boring things bores me even more than consuming them.
20:45:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes, even by wolfram
20:46:15 <alise> but i know there's another c- thin
20:46:19 <alise> cheater99: and if you've ever tried creating might be
20:46:22 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMusic
20:46:49 <alise> cheater99: most music composition software is ridiculously complex, i've noticed
20:47:01 <alise> five billion twiddle knobs, five billion preferences behind it, five billion different modes...
20:47:04 <cheater99> cmusic is the max/msp predecessor isn't it?
20:47:23 <alise> (also: interfaces that look like real equipment and have stupid knobs and shit MAKE ME FUCKING RAGE)
20:47:32 <alise> (MY COMPUTER DOES NOT FUCKING WORK LIKE THAT FUCK YOU)
20:47:40 <cheater99> if you want a nice vim based build system, you don't get shit.
20:48:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you expect *musicians* to be able to competently use a well-designed UI?
20:48:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Um.
20:48:18 <alise> If a musician can use Ableton.
20:48:24 <alise> Then that musician can use literally any interface known to man.
20:48:34 <alise> Ableton is the *craziest freaking thing* ever.
20:48:50 <alise> Not even Reason is that bad.
20:49:07 <alise> cheater99: Maybe I'll get ahold of the original Atari ST version of Logic :)
20:49:11 <alise> My father has that.
20:49:14 <alise> And an Atari to run it on!
20:49:28 <cheater99> they replied with a code excercise
20:49:32 <Sgeo> Something happened last night
20:49:42 <alise> (He now does music using Logic Studio on Windows Me. No joke.)
20:49:46 <cheater99> they replied that my code is not up to their quality standards
20:49:57 <cheater99> i had someone at PSF check that code and find no problems with it
20:50:00 <Sgeo> My dad said that if it weren't for him visiting the hospital where my step-mother's mom was, she would have died due to incompetent care
20:50:09 <Sgeo> I wonder if maybe I should become a doctor
20:50:40 <Sgeo> I don't like the thought of other people's lives being in my hands, but if I displace someone who might be less competent, it's a net win I think
20:50:48 <cheater99> alise: tell him to start using sonar
20:50:56 <cheater99> alise: it's the nicest thing for windoze
20:50:59 <alise> cheater99: i'm not on speaking terms with my father.
20:51:20 <cheater99> alise: he uses windows me. i wouldn't talk to him either : P
20:51:27 <alise> also, he still uses Me because he never saw a reason to upgrade. also Cool Edit Pro and Sound Forge
20:51:32 <alise> so i doubt he will ever change his setup, ever
20:51:45 <alise> cheater99: *old* sound forge
20:51:47 <alise> all the software is old
20:51:58 <cheater99> there's a point to "it works" though
20:52:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wat
20:52:12 <cheater99> ableton's interface is fairly shit
20:52:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's even worse when you can click on it
20:52:26 <alise> see, the simplistic interface you normally see
20:52:29 <alise> is the one for retards
20:52:35 <alise> you can't tweak anything despite it being almost impossible to use
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20:52:38 <cheater99> what's worst is that they're trying to be a dj/live production thing
20:52:43 <alise> so you get to enter the even worse parts of the interface
20:52:50 <alise> cheater99: Autechre use Ableton in live performances
20:52:59 <alise> which, uh, props to them because that shit sounds painfully impossible to me
20:53:17 <alise> wonder if they use max/msp live too
20:53:24 <alise> HOW FAST CAN I MOVE THIS MOUSE TO THIS TEXT BOX AND TWEAK THE VALUE
20:53:25 <cheater99> autechre is not something i'd consider an influence to myself
20:53:33 <alise> autechre are awesome
20:53:54 <cheater99> when i turn up the resonance knob, my tb303's sequencer slows down
20:54:01 <cheater99> because the batteries are half empty.
20:54:07 <alise> cheater99: http://dailyjs.com/images/posts/autechre.jpg <-- Max/MSP patches by Autechre
20:54:11 <alise> Why does it have a colour picker? I DON'T KNOW
20:54:35 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, how so?
20:55:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Name a language!
20:55:19 <alise> Come to think of it, I basically want Logo with a bit more syntactic sugar. ...wait, I just said I want REBOL.
20:55:19 <cheater99> i've done patches full of text entry boxes
20:55:21 <alise> I TAKE IT BACK I TAKE IT
20:55:39 <alise> cheater99: but what that outputs probably counts as music to most people >:)
20:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of Nemerle whatsoever.
20:55:57 <alise> Æ TRANSCEND YOUR MERE PERCEPTIONS OF MUSIC
20:56:14 <cheater99> for researching on inharmonic spectra
20:56:25 <cheater99> which is very important to the musicality of computer music
20:56:48 <cheater99> once electronic instruments can reliably generate inharmonic spectra, the world of electronic music will change forever
20:57:24 <alise> that made no sense to me at all.
20:58:26 <cheater99> 99.99999999999999999999% of all sounds generated with electronic means are either noise, or harmonic spectra, or derivations from those, or recordings.
20:59:00 <alise> so what's inharmonic spectra
20:59:11 <cheater99> if you have a sound, it has partials
20:59:46 <cheater99> the frequency and the loudness envelope of these partials is called the spectrum
20:59:55 <cheater99> it can be seen with a spectrograph
21:00:34 <Phantom_Hoover> So real instruments produce harmonic spectra, while computers produce inharmonic ones?
21:00:35 <cheater99> most sounds generated with syntesizers have harmonic spectra
21:02:31 <cheater99> harmonic spectrum = repeating waveform
21:02:50 <cheater99> a piano is stretched-harmonic. it is a special type of inharmonicity.
21:04:55 <cheater99> you have an almost-harmonic spectrum, except
21:05:48 <cheater99> in a harmonic spectrum, the frequencies of partials are 1f, 2f, 3f, ...
21:06:07 <cheater99> in a stretched-harmonic spectrum it's 1af, 2af, 3af, 4af, ...
21:06:11 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]).
21:06:34 <cheater99> (of course you can also try a <1 and it'll sound nice too)
21:06:53 <cheater99> i think for a piano a is around between 1.001 and 1.1, not sure
21:06:58 <alise> WHY DOESN'T THIS HAVE AN OBVIOUS ANSWER
21:07:15 -!- tombom has joined.
21:07:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Computers have different types of spectra to real instruments.
21:07:46 <cheater99> i find that it's mostly about the "a" rather than the levels
21:08:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, and cheater99 plans to discover how to generate inharmonic spectra with a computer and make 5 billion currencies.
21:11:05 <cheater99> it is currently not being achieved on a computer
21:11:16 <cheater99> it is a very difficult problem computationally
21:11:23 <cheater99> the additive method needs umpteens of partials
21:11:42 <cheater99> and the physical method (simulate a string with weight) is out of reach
21:13:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: >SPIT OUT RANDOM LANGUAGE
21:14:19 * Phantom_Hoover plays the flute and is constantly confused by the keyings for notes.
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21:17:29 <alise> ais523: name a (non-eso) language, please
21:18:30 <ais523> wait, you said non-eso
21:19:10 <alise> ais523: okay, non-eso but including Perl and languages of similar esoity; can i have another?
21:19:24 <ais523> alise: but the entire language is in allcaps
21:19:48 <alise> ais523: err, ok, strengthen non-eso constraint a bit more
21:19:49 <ais523> alise: actually, I think it's case-insensitive
21:19:55 <alise> procedure Hello is
21:19:55 <alise> Ada.Text_IO.Put_Line("Hello, world!");
21:19:57 <ais523> but all the Ada code I've seen has been in allcaps
21:20:25 <alise> conclusion: on average, a randomly-picked language is not suitable for your project
21:20:46 <ais523> this is why I don't use the same lang for everything
21:21:00 <ais523> OTOH, there's generally more than one lang suitable for any given project
21:22:37 <ais523> hmm, does objective C++ actually exist?
21:23:38 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise, follow cpressey's philosophy on C++. ;; wat?
21:23:43 <alise> ais523: yes, for compatibility
21:23:58 <ais523> I couldn't think of a plausible reason for it to exist, but that's one
21:25:39 <ais523> wow, DNS root server H was down for around 18 hours
21:25:50 <ais523> and that's the one owned by the US Army
21:26:00 <ais523> the root servers going down is pretty rare...
21:26:09 <alise> It's the terrists.
21:27:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oklopol
21:28:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oklopol's Graphica and ais523 's Eodermdrome
21:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt is so useless words fail me.
21:29:13 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/graphica.txt
21:29:15 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
21:29:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: there are also some vjn.fi/pb links by oklopol with graphica code in them in the logs
21:30:05 <alise> WHY NOT READ OKLOTALK-- CODE INSTEAD
21:30:06 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/oklotalk--.txt
21:30:10 <alise> BECAUSE THE LISTS ARE MINE
21:30:37 <ais523> IIRC, Eodermdrome still hasn't been implemented
21:30:45 <ais523> although someone (oerjan?) wrote a program in it to prove TCness
21:31:20 <alise> ais523: oerjan, yeah
21:32:34 <alise> <-- (greater/less) (or equal to/than) -->
21:33:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: this is probably why eodermdrome wasn't implemented
21:34:00 <ais523> because nobody can think of a lang that's remotely good to implement it in
21:34:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you could also just have
21:35:07 <alise> and e.g. value(a,42).
21:35:08 <Phantom_Hoover> But Prolog doesn't like interfacing with the outside world very much.
21:35:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it does it alright...
21:35:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i thought you meant like
21:35:55 <alise> arc(A,B) :- arc(B,A).
21:36:00 <alise> or was it directional
21:36:28 <alise> bah markup formats suck!
21:37:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I love the Prolog pathfinding code:
21:37:59 <alise> path(A, B) :- arc(A, B).
21:38:00 <alise> path(A, B) :- path(A, C), path(C, B).
21:40:19 * alise debugs his path *recording* code
21:41:15 <alise> | ?- find_path(a,d,R).
21:41:15 <alise> R = [[a|d]] ? ; (forever)
21:41:18 <alise> that should not happen...
21:41:23 <alise> find_path(A, B, [[A|B]]) :- arc(A, B).
21:41:23 <alise> find_path(A, B, [[A|C]|R]) :-
21:41:23 <alise> find_path(A, C, R1),
21:41:23 <alise> find_path(C, B, R2),
21:41:23 <alise> append(R1, R2, R).
21:42:01 <cheater99> is she cute http://tinyurl.com/2vqdepz
21:42:24 <alise> sheesh, i was even being on-topic
21:42:31 <alise> (Prolog counts as esoteric, right?)
21:42:59 <cheater99> it has existed for more than 1 year
21:44:14 <alise> i'm not sure anyone really uses prolog.
21:45:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: retract
21:45:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably you would need to deassert every arc containing them.
21:46:09 <cheater99> alise: it's not nice to not answer questions :(
21:46:12 <alise> ohh, wait, my path code is right
21:46:21 <alise> since it's not directional
21:46:29 <alise> cheater99: why are you asking, why me, and why in here?
21:47:13 <cheater99> alise: because i wonder what you think!
21:47:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: reatract(arc(a,b))
21:47:33 <cheater99> (you were the first person i saw talking on irc)
21:47:59 <alise> Fatal Error: local stack overflow (size: 8192 Kb, environment variable used: LOCALSZ)
21:48:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there actually a way of getting away with non-tail recursion?
21:48:42 <alise> path(A, B) :- path(A, C), path(C, B), !.
21:49:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:49:32 <alise> | ?- find_path(a, d, R).
21:49:32 <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:49:40 <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:49:43 <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:50:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: there's also retractall
21:50:34 <alise> http://bulba.sdsu.edu/prolog/parsing/recursion_and_assertion.htm
21:50:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: retractall
21:51:00 <alise> retractall(arc(a,_)).
21:53:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: forgets about all backtracking opportunities
21:53:15 <alise> won't go back before the cut
21:53:19 <alise> and if it fails after that, it'll just fail.
21:53:49 <Vorpal> <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:53:49 <Vorpal> <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:53:49 <Vorpal> <alise> R = [[a|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d],[d|b],[b|c],[c|d]] ?
21:53:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, your thing to make arcs undirected obviously leads to an infinite loop.
21:53:58 <Vorpal> that seems incredibly messy
21:54:01 <alise> Vorpal: it's just paths...
21:54:14 <Vorpal> alise, thought you had written code like that :P
21:55:32 <zzo38> If I have an account on LTSP and it log in using the Ubuntu GUI, how to set environment variables global to the account?
21:56:46 <zzo38> Does all environment variables set in .profile affect all programs running in the session for that account?
21:57:03 <zzo38> Linux Terminal Server Project
21:59:28 <alise> <zzo38> Does all environment variables set in .profile affect all programs running in the session for that account?
21:59:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, did you ever actually write down Eodermdrone's command set?
22:00:18 <ais523> I wrote it on the wiki, didn't I?
22:00:39 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
22:00:50 <ais523> it doesn't actually have any commands, that's a complete description of how it works
22:00:59 <ais523> what makes you think all esolangs have to be based on commands?
22:01:05 <zzo38> It is X; that is what the terminal loads. It uses the graphical login screen and then loads that account in the X session (I think it is the GNOME session). I configured my account to start the bash terminal window at login, but I don't know how to make it automatically maximize the window.
22:06:01 <Sgeo> Everything seems much less crashy without Compiz
22:06:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what parser?
22:06:47 <Phantom_Hoover> The one that goes from list of characters to assertions in Prolog.
22:07:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: using dcgs i hope
22:07:59 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolog#Parser_example
22:09:13 <zzo38> Is theree a way to disable all of the options in the menu and use .xinitrc instead?
22:10:17 <zzo38> O, it says graphical login manager do not use .xinitrc it says I need .xsession instead.
22:10:58 -!- augur has joined.
22:11:31 <Sgeo> It took way too long for Akinator to guess "Yes-man" "Some Guy Who Always Presses "Yes""
22:15:32 <zzo38> (Also, I do not have administrative privilege on that computer)
22:17:42 <alise> ais523: Please make a language that doesn't suck.
22:23:37 <ais523> it requires multithreading to implement efficiently in INTERCAL
22:23:43 <alise> ais523: yes, that.
22:24:05 <ais523> Vorpal: two threads; one to do the addition, the other to check when it's finished
22:24:22 <Vorpal> ais523, is that what the standard library does?
22:24:27 <ais523> no, it uses a less efficient version
22:24:31 <ais523> no threading in the stdlib
22:24:36 <Vorpal> ais523, but you optimise it?
22:24:47 <ais523> it doesn't optimise all the way down to addition
22:24:57 <ais523> (unless you link a stdlib written in C rather than INTERCAL)
22:25:04 <ais523> Vorpal: because it only optimises individual statements
22:25:12 <ais523> and INTERCAL addition requires a loop (or a very very very large expression)
22:25:39 <ais523> I think the stdlib version loops once per bit
22:25:47 <ais523> I think the stdlib version loops once per bit
00:01:38 <oerjan> <alise> yeah oerjan realised that you dipshit <-- well strictly speaking i only realized it after putting it into HackEgo
00:05:05 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:05:23 -!- augur has joined.
00:05:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:15:42 <Vorpal> <oerjan> argh the logs cut off about an hour and a half ago <-- someone mail the guy to fix clog, it's broken
00:15:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't have his mail
00:16:33 <Vorpal> <ais523> for instance, for a while there was a standard request for passengers to shift their weight to the left, because otherwise the doors wouldn't close <-- awesome
00:16:53 * Sgeo doesn't particularly have much weight to shift
00:17:05 * Sgeo is 111 lbs last he checked
00:17:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what is that in the SI system units?
00:18:27 * pikhq is something like 80kg
00:18:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: 180 cm or so
00:19:08 <Vorpal> ah, so you are short :P
00:19:26 <pikhq> For certain definitions of "short", perhaps. Ones set by giants, for instance.
00:20:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, I wish I had grown to 190 cm. 189.5 is *soo close*
00:20:41 <pikhq> What annoys me is non-SI units.
00:21:14 <pikhq> Especially ambiguous ones.
00:21:57 <pikhq> A pound of feathers is heavier than a pound of gold.
00:23:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about a pound of pounds?
00:23:22 <pikhq> A pound of feathers is 454g. A pound of gold is 373g.
00:23:25 <Vorpal> does that count as gold?
00:23:44 <pikhq> Because precious metals are measured in troy weights, not avoirdupois weights.
00:23:50 <pikhq> But both use the same names for their units.
00:24:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, "avoirdupois weights" <-- really? is it different from normal pounds of other stuff?
00:25:06 <pikhq> The avoirdupois system of weight units is the typical one.
00:25:13 <pikhq> Troy is used for precious metals.
00:26:13 <pikhq> But, an ounce of feathers is lighter than an ounce of gold.
00:26:46 <pikhq> 28 g and 31g, respectively.
00:27:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, is this what you use? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:English_mass_units_graph.svg
00:27:20 <pikhq> 16 avoirdupois ounces to the avoirdupois pound, 12 troy ounces to the troy pound.
00:28:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, except that ony avoirdupois and troy units are in common use today, and the grain, scruple, pennyweight, shilling, mark, dram, clove, nail, stone, quarter, tod, hundredweight, and sack are obnoxious archaicisms in the US.
00:29:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, you should start using those, just to annoy people. With metric prefixes
00:29:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, it gets worse. The ounce is also a couple units of volume.
00:30:14 <Vorpal> about how large is it in metric units
00:30:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: An ounce of water != 1 ounce of ice, in volume.
00:30:42 <Vorpal> I have no mental picture of the magnitude of these units
00:30:53 <Vorpal> which i do have for the SI system
00:31:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, "decisack", the word is awesome
00:32:48 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:33:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because the fluid ounce is 29.5 ml, and the dry ounce is 31 ml.
00:33:19 <pikhq> (note: dry units of volume not in common use)
00:33:31 <pikhq> (aside from the peck & the bushel)
00:34:06 <pikhq> Used for measuring agricultural yields.
00:34:17 <pikhq> For instance, bushels of wheat, pecks of fruit.
00:34:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, iirc mostly m^3 here
00:35:00 <pikhq> Oh, and a barrel of oil is not the same volume as a barrel of water, which is not the same volume as a barrel of wheat.
00:35:13 <pikhq> 158L, 119L, 115L, respectively.
00:35:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, you are so crazy
00:35:36 <Vorpal> why do you keep using that system
00:35:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: People claim it makes more sense.
00:36:08 <pikhq> Oh, also: 1 mile on land is not the same distance as a mile on sea.
00:36:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes but people write "nautical mile" when they mean it
00:36:31 <pikhq> 1.6km and 1.8km, respectively.
00:36:34 <Vorpal> they don't call it mile
00:36:55 <Vorpal> at least in aviation nm is used as the unit on instruments and such
00:37:05 <Vorpal> since it is not nanometer
00:38:34 <pikhq> I should note that there is no convenient conversion between cubic inches & units of volume.
00:39:01 <Vorpal> only to be expected with a system that wasn't designed but grew over time
00:39:06 <pikhq> (unlike how 1L = 1dm)
00:39:29 <pikhq> There *is* an easy conversion between units of volume and masses of water, though.
00:39:47 <pikhq> 1 fl oz. of water is about 1 oz. of water
00:39:59 <pikhq> (it used to be exact before redefining the units in terms of SI)
00:41:21 <pikhq> Much like how 1L used to be 1kg of water before the SI units were defined more exactly.
00:42:21 <pikhq> Oh, you want even more of a headache?
00:42:44 <pikhq> Each Commonwealth nation using customary units has their own definitions of them.
00:43:11 <pikhq> Oh, s/Commonweatlh/
00:43:40 <pikhq> A tablespoon in Canada is 15ml. In US, 14.79ml. According to the FDA (a US government agency), 15ml. In Australia, 20ml.
00:44:00 <pikhq> A US gallon is 3785ml. A UK gallon is 4546ml.
00:44:20 <Vorpal> that's quite a large difference
00:45:02 <pikhq> Fortunately, the length and weight units were fixed by international treaty, so the only distinctions there are land/nautical and avoirdupois/troy.
00:45:35 <Vorpal> btw, I should start using kiloseconds, it makes a lot more sense than minutes and hours
00:45:57 <pikhq> ... No, wait, the weight units are *almost* the same. A UK hundredweight is 112lb, and a US hundredweight is 100lb.
00:46:17 <pikhq> And in both, a ton is 20 hundredweights.
00:46:22 <pikhq> So close and yet so far.
00:46:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, over here a ton is 1000 kg. And a mile is 10 km
00:46:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's the metric ton.
00:46:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, and a scandinavian mile
00:46:59 <pikhq> The Us also uses metric tons.
00:47:24 <pikhq> The only thing we abhor more than sane units is consistent units!
00:48:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_mile
00:48:28 <Vorpal> quite a nice unit, if anyone else used it
00:48:40 <Vorpal> it is a nice size to be useful
00:48:48 <pikhq> Quite a reasonable unit.
00:49:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, and useful on the distances found in Sweden
00:49:07 <pikhq> Even if it is hectometer.
00:49:17 <Vorpal> like, two mil to university for me
00:49:24 <Sgeo> The data on my HD is degrading as we speak?
00:49:44 <pikhq> DONT FUCKING SCREW UP POWERS OF 10
00:49:54 <Sgeo> And don't yell at me, yell at my dad on my behalf please
00:50:15 <pikhq> Why aren't there SI prefixes for every power of 10 in a useful range?
00:50:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, because um, imagine having name for everything between giga and yotta, instad of just a few
00:51:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, result: even sillier names than "yotta"
00:51:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's powers of 1000.
00:52:11 -!- augur_ has joined.
00:52:32 * oerjan points out that nautical mile actually _is_ a logical unit. well approximately.
00:52:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: It gets worse if you start trying to do physics using traditional units.
00:53:07 <Vorpal> Sweden used to use metric units for flight, we don't any longer because no one else does
00:53:18 <oerjan> it's originally the length of one minute of arc of a meridian, useful for sea maps
00:53:22 <olsner> you can always combine deka/deci and hecto/centi with the standard prefixes
00:53:27 <Vorpal> basically it screwed up for altitude calculations with about everyone else
00:53:59 <Vorpal> oh Soviet was completely metric too
00:54:25 <oerjan> olsner: by "you can always" you mean "it's not actually permitted to" afaik
00:54:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, dekakilometer?
00:54:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: ft^2°Fh/BTU, anyone?
00:54:56 <olsner> not actually permitted? who has the power to forbid this?
00:54:58 <Vorpal> or kilodekameter perhaps
00:55:21 <oerjan> it's not part of the standard, anyway
00:55:29 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:55:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's a unit of thermal resistance. The foot-squared degree Fahrenheit hour per British Thermal Unit.
00:55:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, still flight use two units of pressure, and instruments are commonly marked with both SI units (hPa iirc) and inHg
00:56:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, what is the SI unit for it?
00:56:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, what is "British Thermal Unit" exactly?
00:57:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, now if SI could just get rid of the kg prototype
00:57:46 <pikhq> (1055.05585262 in the UK)
00:57:56 <Vorpal> define it in terms of some natural constants or such
00:58:08 <oerjan> it's the heat production corresponding to one second of british parliament discussion
00:58:12 <Vorpal> like has been done for all the other prototypes
00:58:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, shouldn't "British termal unit" refer to UK always?
00:58:59 <pikhq> That would make sense!
00:59:02 <Vorpal> I mean, "UK British termal unit" is absurd
00:59:05 <augur_> Vorpal: they _have_ gotten rid of the kg prototype, i think
00:59:13 <pikhq> augur_: No, it's the remaining prototype.
00:59:22 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
00:59:37 <pikhq> There's currently debate over what possible replacement definition to use.
01:00:16 <pikhq> The ones I like most involve defining the Avogadro constant exactly.
01:03:39 <oerjan> number of atoms in a standard avocado
01:05:41 <lambdabot> [-Infinity,0.0,1.0,2.718281828459045,15.154262241479262,3814279.104760214,I...
01:06:02 <augur> pikhq: do you have any interest in physics?
01:06:30 <pikhq> More practically, I am taking a physics course ATM, and as such have to care. :P
01:07:09 <augur> pikhq: check out some of Julian Barbour's work (links to follow)
01:07:16 <augur> The Case for Geometry: http://pirsa.org/index.php?p=media&url=http://streamer.perimeterinstitute.ca/Flash/9a93c428-c616-4dca-8713-915277e28056/viewer.html&pirsa=10050060&type=Flash%20Presentation
01:07:38 <augur> The deep and suggestive principles of Leibnizian philosophy: http://platonia.com/barbour_hrp2003.pdf
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01:17:52 <alise> <augur_> Vorpal: they _have_ gotten rid of the kg prototype, i think
01:17:56 <alise> amusingly, it's actually getting lighter
01:18:07 <augur> alise: well, magic and all.
01:18:15 <augur> but wait.. HOW DO THEY KNOW?!
01:18:28 <augur> (i know how they know but it was funny to say XP)
01:18:41 <Vorpal> augur, correction "lighter relative it's replicas"
01:18:41 <pikhq> EVERYTHING ELSE IS GETTING HEAVIER
01:18:45 -!- lament has joined.
01:18:48 <alise> augur: their 1kg weights started getting lighter
01:18:50 <Vorpal> which is indeed not absolute lighter
01:19:07 <alise> Vorpal: IT WAS A FUCKING JOKE
01:19:16 <Vorpal> alise, ah, I just read about this :P
01:19:17 <alise> i was saying that everything weighing 1kg in the world got lighter
01:20:56 -!- theoros has joined.
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01:21:10 <augur> see you in a bit, peeps.
01:21:18 <alise> lament: why thank you
01:21:47 <oerjan> quark mating can be a bit up and down, you know
01:22:40 -!- theoros has left.
01:24:17 <alise> coppro: if I wrote a comprehensive, referenced errata for that ed in Python post, would it get published? or would i languish here in my infinite pit of despair, envying pizza
01:24:31 <oerjan> but it has its strange charm
01:25:22 <Sgeo> alise, you desire recognition!
01:25:40 <Sgeo> (Or, well, for what you work on to be useful)
01:25:44 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:25:54 <alise> it'd be the most worthless piece of text ever written!
01:26:04 <oerjan> lament: do you mean i should quit while on top, or that i've already hit rock bottom?
01:26:06 <alise> a dry analysis of something probably written in three minutes for the hell of it!
01:26:24 <pikhq> Why does my computer insist that it's 19:26 while everything else insists it's 18:26?
01:26:27 <alise> <lament> /kick oerjan ;; Ha, ha, our op is retarded and can't type two /s.
01:26:37 <alise> pikhq: Your other computer is actually in a wormhole bubble across a timezone.
01:26:43 <Sgeo> Some clients don't use two //
01:26:47 <lament> oerjan: i mean i'm gonna beat you up red, green and blue
01:26:49 <Sgeo> Some clients also don't know of /say
01:26:54 <alise> pikhq: You will notice that if you eject the CD-ROM drive, it will disappear half-way through.
01:27:02 <alise> coppro: excellent, i shall get writing immediately
01:27:02 <Sgeo> And typing /msg #esoteric /whatever can be a prick
01:27:24 <alise> coppro: I cannot let this ridiculous Canadian sloppiness go uncorrected
01:27:33 <alise> Sgeo: "can be a prick"? Seriously?
01:27:35 <oerjan> lament: well i guess should expect being met with strong force
01:27:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:28:01 <pikhq> ... Because my timezone got set wrong. Fuuuccck.
01:28:03 <Sgeo> I still don't swear like a sailor?
01:28:16 <alise> pikhq: No. Wormholes.
01:28:28 <alise> Sgeo: I don't think ANYBODY says that :P
01:28:33 <alise> Or if they do, they shouldn't.
01:28:47 <Sgeo> I say it. Happy?
01:30:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, I guess the mating quarks find each other charming? Though I guess it is a very strange topic to humans.
01:30:51 -!- dbelange has joined.
01:31:06 <Sgeo> alise, watched Sintel?
01:31:24 <oerjan> Vorpal: well sometimes they're just meson around
01:31:31 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRsGyueVLvQ
01:31:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
01:31:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, not just the trailer?
01:31:48 <alise> coppro: [[Errata for the article "Python Implementation of ed" by *null, as
01:31:48 <alise> printed in issue 114.1 of the University of Waterloo Faculty of
01:31:49 <alise> Mathematics Student Newspaper mathNEWS.]]
01:31:53 <Sgeo> Is the trailer 14 minutes long?
01:31:54 <alise> If you want this title to be more precise, it can be.
01:32:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I thought youtube videos were limited to 10 minutes?
01:32:28 <Sgeo> This one is 14:48 somehow
01:32:36 <Vorpal> dbelange, a lot of us do
01:32:37 <alise> Sgeo: not for registered thingybobs.
01:32:49 <Sgeo> alise, it's Vorpal who asked
01:33:08 <Vorpal> [download] Destination: eRsGyueVLvQ.video <-- wtf is .video
01:33:08 <Sgeo> But I didn't realize BlenderFoundation was a registered thingy
01:33:33 <Vorpal> $ file eRsGyueVLvQ.video
01:33:34 <Vorpal> eRsGyueVLvQ.video: ISO Media, MPEG v4 system, version 2
01:33:49 <Vorpal> "Your video output acceleration driver does not support the required resolution: 2048x872 pixels. The maximum supported resolution is 2046x872."
01:34:35 <dbelange> Vorpal: I was wondering if Befunge is related to Bungie?
01:34:45 <dbelange> Is this mischan should I ask #alephone
01:34:56 <Vorpal> dbelange, I have no idea what bungie is
01:35:03 <Vorpal> so I can't answer that
01:35:29 <Sgeo> This is the right chan for Befunge questions
01:35:33 <Sgeo> Wrong one for Bungie questions
01:35:50 <dbelange> Thats what I'm asking is, there a relation
01:36:05 <lament> probably not since nobody here knows what bungie is ??
01:36:13 <Sgeo> Considering that none of us have heard of Bungie, pro.. what lament said
01:36:15 <dbelange> I know Pfhortran is related with Bungie
01:36:19 <Sgeo> It rings a bell though
01:36:22 <lament> other than stretchy rope
01:36:29 <coppro> alise: don't submit to me
01:36:31 <lament> are you talking about stretchy rope dbelange
01:36:40 <Sgeo> Some video game dev?
01:36:50 <alise> coppro: i am merely asking for feedback, you... you worthless bear-mauler
01:37:04 <Sgeo> Aha! Proof that several video games are made in Befunge!
01:37:09 <Sgeo> It can't be a coincidence
01:37:10 <alise> dbelange: wait, the company?
01:37:19 <dbelange> Yeah I'm wondering pretty much about video game developing in Befunge
01:37:23 <alise> Sgeo: bungie make marathon and halo
01:37:31 <dbelange> since it is pretty much a game already
01:37:36 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to GlennBeck.
01:37:37 <alise> dbelange: no relation whatsoever
01:37:39 -!- GlennBeck has changed nick to Sgeo.
01:37:41 <lament> you're in luck befunge is pretty much designed for video game development
01:37:41 <alise> wait, how is it even a game...
01:37:43 <Sgeo> Ok, that nick is registered
01:37:49 <dbelange> alise: But they did make Pfohrtran
01:37:57 <alise> it is -- hunt the wumpus!
01:38:15 <alise> dbelange: of which google knows nothing
01:38:27 <lament> didn't someone have like chess in befunge
01:38:59 <dbelange> Anyway befunge is like a basic RPG
01:38:59 <Sgeo> Ah, it's a language designed for video game stuff
01:39:11 <Vorpal> [0x1d378b0] avcodec decoder error: more than 5 seconds of late video -> dropping frame (computer too slow ?)
01:39:27 <Vorpal> *goes to sintel website and downloads lower res*
01:39:36 <Vorpal> still now I get way less than my monitor
01:40:15 <Sgeo> I haden't even heard of Sintel until a celebrity tweeted about it :/
01:40:18 <alise> <dbelange> Anyway befunge is like a basic RPG ;; what?
01:40:24 <alise> Sgeo: why do you follow celebrities
01:40:56 <Sgeo> Felicia Day, to be specific
01:41:03 <Sgeo> Not someone like Brittany Spears
01:41:14 <dbelange> alise: Well you have a man who moves
01:41:35 <dbelange> and there are registers (could be HP, gold, ....)
01:41:42 <dbelange> Maybe this is a better example http://alfedenzia.com/scuttle/scuttle.html
01:42:23 <oerjan> dbelange: i guess you _could_ ask the inventor cpressey if he was inspired by RPGs, he sometimes comes here
01:43:01 <dbelange> Im wondering mostly tonight though (lol) about making befunge into a game
01:43:13 <dbelange> or bringing out its Inner Game XD
01:43:16 <lament> there's that other languague
01:43:17 <Sgeo> I'd love it if someone just came in here and asked about PSOX
01:43:26 <lament> with mouses and cheese and stuff
01:43:30 <oerjan> well why not, we've already made brainfuck into a game at least twice :D
01:44:11 <Sgeo> I'm partial to Taxi
01:44:20 <Sgeo> When it comes to those sort of langs
01:44:28 <dbelange> So like increment is treasure chest, decrement is orcs, ... etc
01:44:30 <lament> dbelange: http://catseye.tc/projects/hunter/doc/website_hunter.html
01:44:55 <oerjan> ah yes same author too
01:45:42 <alise> i am pretty sure dbelange is just fucking with us.
01:46:30 <oerjan> alise: um it's not a weirder idea than many others around here...
01:46:35 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
01:47:04 -!- flippo has joined.
01:47:10 <dbelange> alise: fwiw my intentions are more noble than comp games
01:47:35 <lament> the reason dbelange is fucking with us is that he's not actually going to implement this
01:48:02 <Sgeo> Townsburg! http://www.bigzaphod.org/taxi/map-big.png
01:48:04 <dbelange> lament: I want to make befunge into a game for didactical reasons
01:49:28 -!- bavarious has joined.
01:50:03 <dbelange> Any way I think that a computer game that teaches kids to think in terms of universal machines (TM or s-exps say) would be beneficial no?
01:50:36 <dbelange> I think most games that have been made with this goal in mind have only done regular languages or SOMETIMES context-free
01:51:21 * oerjan is reminded of http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/
01:52:52 * Sgeo would love to see turing machines kidified
01:53:02 <dbelange> so for a regular language you might have robot games, or a tower defence
01:53:50 <dbelange> but I think a 2d TM or stack-based thing (like befunge) where registers are HP or caches of trasure
01:54:00 <dbelange> and decrementers are orcs and traps
01:54:18 <dbelange> would be beneficial to kids learning to think
01:55:03 <Sgeo> But decrement isn't evil
01:55:17 <dbelange> it is if the stack is empty rofl
02:00:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, wrt sintel: meh, not what I expected
02:02:33 -!- augur has joined.
02:03:54 <lament> augur: hey we got another fag in the channel
02:04:19 <Vorpal> lament, nasty thing you did there
02:04:20 <augur> so thats 100% of the channel still, then, ey?
02:05:05 <Vorpal> dbelange, also pop on empty stack in befunge is just pop 0. If that is what you meant.
02:05:25 <Vorpal> anything on empty stack acts as if it popped 0
02:05:36 <pikhq> Lé sigh. US poverty rates hit 14% of the population.
02:05:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, I read that as "USB poverty" first XD
02:06:06 <Vorpal> dbelange, um you mean exit? @
02:06:20 <Vorpal> dbelange, or in befunge-98 you can use q, which pops an exit code
02:06:34 <Vorpal> both befunge93 and befunge98 has @
02:06:35 <dbelange> no I think some crash would be better
02:06:37 <Vorpal> which takes no parameter
02:06:46 <lament> http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2004
02:07:03 <Vorpal> dbelange, hopefully not, since I maintain a befunge-98 implementation
02:07:39 <Vorpal> dbelange, anyway, you might want to design a fungoid then
02:08:58 <dbelange> No I don't want to build it from the ground "up"
02:10:18 <dbelange> I just think with the proper interpertation and tileset (or diablo style gfx) it would be useful
02:10:51 <Vorpal> you plan on displaying the running program?
02:11:02 <Sgeo> You'd also want an implementation that displays ongoing internals probably
02:11:13 <Vorpal> what is wrong with ASCII graphics?
02:11:25 <Sgeo> Kids might not like it, I guess
02:11:35 <dbelange> Vorpal have you read the Diamond Age
02:11:38 <Vorpal> also how do you display ongoing internals? Befunge-98 has at least 2^32 * 2^23
02:11:45 <Vorpal> you can't display that
02:11:52 <dbelange> the key is to slowly develop it more and more so that at first it's like 3d
02:12:09 <Vorpal> I never heard of "diamond age"
02:12:11 <Sgeo> I meant the stack (there's a stack, right?)
02:12:30 <lament> dbelange: and then it's just 0000000
02:12:42 <dbelange> The display is centered on the player, liek diablo
02:12:48 <oerjan> um i think for this limiting fungespace to screen size is ok. or maybe panning...
02:13:31 <oerjan> dbelange: there are a number of avid nethack players in the channel
02:14:18 <Vorpal> I seem to remember reading that diablo was inspired by nethack
02:14:35 <oerjan> a 2d game with ascii graphics, afaiu. but otherwise very complicated.
02:14:40 <dbelange> Probably the other way around, diablo is pretty old
02:14:49 <Vorpal> dbelange, no. nethack is older
02:15:17 <Vorpal> still developed of course
02:15:22 <Vorpal> for some values of developed
02:15:46 <alise> coppro, our inside man
02:15:54 <Vorpal> coppro, yeah that last comment basically made me label him mentally as "newbie and/or troll"
02:15:55 <pikhq> Nethack's 10 years older than Diablo.
02:15:56 <alise> exposing the true nature of the criminals
02:16:33 <alise> Vorpal: /msg about the fish plan
02:16:45 <pikhq> Diablo's not even the oldest game *from Blizzard*.
02:17:03 <dbelange> It says nethack was released in 2003??
02:17:12 <Vorpal> dbelange, last version of it
02:17:12 <alise> dbelange: try 1987
02:17:15 <Vorpal> not the original version
02:17:17 <dbelange> Neither "1980s" nor "active developing"
02:17:25 <alise> NetHack is a single-player roguelike video game originally released in 1987. It is a descendant of an earlier game called Hack (1985), which is a descendant of Rogue (1980).[2] Salon describes it as "one of the finest gaming experiences the computing world has to offer."[2]
02:17:36 <alise> and it's really just a modified Hack, which is 1982
02:17:52 <alise> Hack was created in 1982 by Jay Fenlason with the assistance of Kenny Woodland, Mike Thome, and Jonathan Payne. A greatly extended version was posted on Usenet in 1984 by Andries Brouwer. It is licensed under a 3-clause BSD-like license.[1]
02:17:58 <alise> 1985 is the release of Hack that NetHack is based on
02:17:59 <dbelange> It is a descendant of an earlier game called Hack (1985),
02:18:14 <Sgeo> NetHack doesn't really center on the character. YOu know what does? Crawl
02:18:19 <Sgeo> alise hates me now
02:18:19 <alise> Hack (1982) --> another Hack release (1985) --> NetHack (1987) --> ... -> NetHack (2003)
02:18:25 <alise> dbelange: ^ i drew you a nice diagram
02:18:42 <dbelange> Fine, so now that you're done arguing about things that dont matter
02:18:45 <coppro> I find it difficult to believe that anyone with a taurine host hasn't heard of nethack
02:18:49 <Sgeo> Then again, the levels in NetHack aren't freakishly huge
02:18:55 <pikhq> And Hack's more an improvement on Rogue, which is from 1980.
02:19:28 <coppro> moreover, I find it much easier to believe that a CSCer is trolling
02:20:16 <alise> coppro: yes, but drawing diagrams is fun
02:20:29 <alise> pikhq: hack's a total other game :P
02:20:44 <lament> you're in a club the membership in which implies you know Nethack
02:20:50 <alise> dbelange just set his groping option to fag
02:21:23 <oerjan> wait what is this Fag category
02:21:39 <oerjan> and what is the Grp --> Fag functor
02:21:40 <alise> i was thinking categories there yeah
02:21:46 <alise> dbelange: is that meant to be haskell?
02:21:53 <Sgeo> WTF is --> ?????
02:22:02 <alise> wow it's actually quite fun to see Sgeo this confused
02:22:12 <Sgeo> dbelange, ....
02:22:26 -!- dbelange has left ("Until next time").
02:22:33 <alise> i do believe there is some --> thing
02:22:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Clearly an interesting type-level operator.
02:22:36 <oerjan> but Grp isn't a monad, you need an Eq restriction
02:22:46 <alise> well Sgeo got trolled
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02:24:14 <Sgeo> I feel guilty about driving someone away, even if that someone is a complete and utter moron
02:24:26 <Sgeo> And I still think that the thoughts about Befunge for kids might be a good idea
02:24:39 <Sgeo> Although Turing Machine for kids would be better imo
02:24:48 <oerjan> poe's law for esolangs :D
02:25:24 <alise> Sgeo: dude, he's not a moron, he was trolling
02:27:08 <Vorpal> alise, hey, what I'm supposed with the 200 kg salmon that arrived. UPS claims you are the sender!
02:29:07 <alise> Vorpal: no, seriously ... what?
02:29:18 <alise> oh. ohhhhhhhhhhhh.
02:29:26 <alise> i have too much of a headache to get that
02:29:38 <oerjan> wait trolls are not a subset of morons?
02:29:53 <alise> oerjan: most trolls are intelligent people pretending to be morons
02:30:11 <Vorpal> there are however a few morons that are trolls
02:30:18 <Vorpal> often rather failed ones
02:30:20 <alise> none are any good :P
02:30:54 <Sgeo> What would it look like if I were to troll #esoteric ?
02:31:31 <Sgeo> Spiritual gunk, then when told otherwise, try to combine spirituality and computer science?
02:31:46 <Vorpal> nah, that's just pathetic
02:42:25 <oerjan> i have discovered something alise will surely find disturbing http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/dlsks/simon_peyton_jones_ghc_7_status_update_video/c115tsm
02:43:03 <alise> oerjan: stop distracting me, I have a mathNEWS article to write by Monday!
02:43:09 <alise> i'm totally getting paid for this you know
02:43:16 * oerjan watches alise's worldview shatter into incompatible pieces
02:44:18 <oerjan> or i would if he hadn't applied such hard-handed evasion tactics
02:45:35 <Sgeo> Even I find it disturbing
02:46:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, what's so earth shattering about it, I can't watch that link
02:47:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't have flash...
02:48:18 <oerjan> reddit uses flash? mind you i haven't even looked at the video, just the comments
02:48:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, no the linked to page
02:48:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, but I don't see that anywhere?
02:49:01 <oerjan> well it's a comment _about_ the video, obviously
02:49:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, but "[...] or Reddit communities."?
02:49:55 -!- bavarious has left ("bye").
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02:50:33 * oerjan wonders what the heck Vorpal is actually seeing on his screen
02:50:44 <oerjan> i just linked to a reddit comment sub-thread...
02:52:24 <alise> lol Vorpal is stupid
02:53:50 <GreaseMonkey> make a flash player before you recommend it to anyone
02:54:28 <oerjan> Vorpal: also Jameshfisher is obviously being sensationally argumentative like a lot of redditors, i just found what he pointed out amusing
02:56:40 <oerjan> the "[...] or Reddit communities." is just to complain about being downvoted
03:00:02 -!- hailtothethief has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
03:18:40 <Sgeo> Obviously, hailtothethief is in fact Vorpal
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03:26:39 <oerjan> it's that time of year again http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11447095
03:28:27 * oerjan likes the Management Prize
03:29:56 <Sgeo> FUCK FIREFOX FUCK FLASH FUCK THE LACK OF SWAP SPACE
03:30:27 <GreaseMonkey> Sgeo: make a big file on your harddisk and then do swapon to it
03:31:12 <Sgeo> My harddisk is a 2GB USB stick, with just 1GB of user data space, and .. about 100MB left
03:33:33 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn to play with Blender at some point
03:34:26 <coppro> oerjan: yeah, I want to see that paper
03:40:42 <Sgeo> Flash just crashed in the middle of me watching something
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03:54:41 <Sgeo> The crashes are happening much more now
03:57:23 <Sgeo> Maybe an update of Firefox etc. will help?
03:58:04 <Sgeo> Ooh, Gwibber gets OAuth
03:58:11 <Sgeo> I can now actually use it
03:59:27 <Sgeo> Needs too much disk space to update everything
03:59:31 <Sgeo> I'm going to cry
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04:23:54 <SgeoN1> Maybe I should try Puppy Linux again or something
04:25:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
04:26:28 <SgeoN1> USB stick might not have been in tightly enough
04:26:48 <SgeoN1> I wonder if that could be the cause of the incessant crashing
04:41:12 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_errata my favourite page
04:41:22 <alise> it gets truly hilarious a bit lower down
04:41:27 <alise> especially all the names
04:42:57 <alise> "For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their owl husbands."
04:43:03 <pikhq> I'm quite fond of "Thou shalt commit adultery".
04:44:13 <oerjan> alise: a fowl fate indeed
04:45:09 <alise> "Their Owl Husbands" would be a good band/novel name/title.
04:45:57 <oerjan> straight from the howly book
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04:53:23 <Gregor> Somebody should print a version of the bible that has every error ever known to be printed in a bible.
04:55:46 <Sgeo> http://cowbirdsinlove.com/980
04:56:22 <Gregor> "Christ condemneth the poor widow" // Christianity is a very capitalistic religion
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04:59:35 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Are the mating habits of quarks really the subject of ephemeral ontologists? Or would they be more wealthy discussing http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D ?.
05:00:43 <zzo38> I don't even know what this topc message means
05:05:14 <Gregor> I don't think it's actually meaningful.
05:05:41 <zzo38> I also don't think it is actually meaningful.
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05:06:40 <Gregor> It's amusing though :P
05:07:42 <pikhq> Well, it certainly doesn't lack unmeaning.
05:08:03 <zzo38> What is ephemeral ontologists?
05:08:21 <Gregor> Presumably people who study short-lived things.
05:08:39 <pikhq> Or people who are short-lived studying things.
05:10:37 <pikhq> Why am I so good at not doing anything?
05:11:07 <pikhq> I'm too busy doing fuck-all!
05:11:22 <Gregor> That's a lot of stuff to fuck! (All stuff)
05:11:26 <zzo38> I did find the problem in the Enhanced CWEB, which I have now fixed. The problem was inserting discretionary breaks after \BIS
05:11:50 <pikhq> Gregor: I'm like Wowbagger with more sex.
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06:14:07 <pikhq> "Im looking for a bento box, it cant be pinku (thats japanese for pink) or any girl color. It has to be of 2 or more kotoba (thats japanese for 2 compartments) and has be be chibi(small) sized"
06:14:21 <pikhq> My faith in humanity is dying.
06:15:24 <pikhq> "kotoba" is Japanese for "word" and "chibi" is a slang term for a cutesy drawing style.
06:15:42 <pikhq> From "chiisai hito", I think.
06:15:44 <Gregor> What's actual-Japanese for pink?
06:16:09 <Gregor> Uhh, that's presumably an import from English. What's pre-English Japanese for pink then? >_>
06:16:32 <oerjan> PRE-ENGLISH JAPANESE WERE TOO AWESOME FOR PINK
06:16:54 <Gregor> Is that just "light red" compressed or something?
06:17:29 <pikhq> Or momoiro. Peach color.
06:17:43 <pikhq> Pinku is by far the most common, though.
06:18:10 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, same morpheme.
06:19:26 <pikhq> Also, I had to look up ones that weren't "pinku".
06:20:12 <oerjan> pinku shirtu, domo arigato
06:20:42 <pikhq> oerjan: pinku shâtsu wo kudasai; domo arigatô. I think you mean.
06:21:04 <pikhq> Erm, dômo arigatô.
06:21:49 <oerjan> especially if shâtsu is an english loanword
06:22:22 <pikhq> It refers to button-up shirts.
06:23:38 * oerjan shouldn't talk - the original word "kortbukser" is almost completely replaced by "shorts" in norwegian
06:23:40 <pikhq> Or perhaps you mean: hįnnku siȳâtu wo kutàsai; tồmo arikàtô.
06:25:05 * oerjan wouldn't know, you know
06:25:26 <pikhq> Or perhaps you mean "domo arigato, Mr. Robato".
07:12:53 <pikhq> Ò ḥóẅ Ɨ ♥ çőḿṗốŝę.
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07:32:06 <cheater99> http://www.bitrebels.com/geek/this-pool-creates-waves-in-the-shape-of%E2%80%A6anything/
07:34:43 <pikhq> cheater99: Awesome.
07:36:03 <Gregor> It's a good thing they got Japan Kramer to check it out.
07:37:17 <cheater99> actually japan kramer is the guy who made it.
07:37:35 <Gregor> I DON'T SPEAK JAPANALANG
07:37:41 <pikhq> All that for safety testing.
07:38:01 <pikhq> They are using that to figure out how to make better safety testing procedures for boats. Seriously.
07:38:12 <Gregor> I thought it was Japan Business Suit Guy
07:38:25 <Gregor> (The guy who made it, that is)
07:38:49 <pikhq> He talked more like a businessman than anything else.
07:43:08 <pikhq> I'm not sure what's up with Japan Kramer there.
07:43:36 <Gregor> Especially since he's crazy-Euromerican-looking.
07:43:57 <pikhq> Yeah, I got nothing, and I understood the video.
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08:04:28 <Gregor> Did you understand EVERY WORD?
08:04:38 <pikhq> No, but I understood most of it.
08:04:48 <Gregor> Maybe encoded into one seeming-innocuous unrecognized word was a lengthy exposition on the role of each of the people in the video.
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08:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I just noticed that the logs cut off halfway through yesterday.
08:44:38 * coppro must figure out how to get a log
08:44:44 <cheater99> YYYYEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
08:44:46 <coppro> becase dbelange was in here
08:52:29 <Phantom_Hoover> By my calculations, we have 2 hours before the next log fetch.
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09:07:16 <coppro> calculate wronger then
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09:17:05 <Vorpal> * coppro must figure out how to get a log <-- your own irc client logs
09:17:21 <Vorpal> if you don't have them: your own issue
09:18:40 <Vorpal> I could of course share mine, but why
09:20:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Because we don't have any others and we're not always online?
09:24:44 <coppro> Vorpal: specifically, I meant to figure out how to get my client to dump logs
09:25:00 <coppro> it has logs of some length
09:25:11 <coppro> usually about a day and a half in here
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09:44:16 <Vorpal> <coppro> Vorpal: specifically, I meant to figure out how to get my client to dump logs <-- hm...
09:44:31 <Vorpal> -coppro- VERSION irssi v0.8.12 <-- okay, no clue
09:44:36 <Vorpal> but it should be possible
09:44:46 <Vorpal> not sure about dumping scrollback though
09:44:54 <Vorpal> which is different from logging I think
09:45:03 <Vorpal> logging starts from the point you activate it
09:45:37 <Vorpal> coppro, still I could give you logs I guess, they are in a custom xchat-like format and are in the CEST timezone
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09:58:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not in general, just for coppro specific usage I meant
09:59:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if coppro wants the logs I will paste the link in the channel.
09:59:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I see no point in helping you, you seem to hate me usually.
10:06:40 <Vorpal> coppro, since you were just interested in the bit where dbelange was in here, that is all I will include. But now, bbl for a few hours
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10:49:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Where was that thought experiment with the sphere of air that approximated the Poincaré hyperbolic model?
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11:28:34 <yorick> how many have come here this week asking for the smallest way to initialize cells in brainfuck to 67, 100 and 111?
11:31:30 <Vorpal> yorick, none that I know of, why?
11:31:35 <Vorpal> $ grep -Ev '^#|[0-9]+/(tcp|udp|sctp|dccp)' /etc/services
11:31:35 <Vorpal> cuelink 5271/tdp # StageSoft CueLink messaging
11:31:50 <Vorpal> I googled and it seems IANA itself lists it as tdp too
11:31:59 <Vorpal> so not just a typo in my local copy
11:32:01 <yorick> Vorpal: because it's part of the dutch informatics olympiad :P
11:32:25 <Vorpal> sounds like cheating helping you then
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11:33:21 <yorick> Vorpal: tag distribution protocol
11:33:29 <yorick> Vorpal: I'm not asking :)
11:33:44 <Vorpal> yorick, or it could be a typo for either udp or tcp
11:33:54 <Vorpal> yorick, after all it is the only tdp port listed there
11:34:03 <yorick> http://www.protocols.com/pbook/tag.htm#TDP
11:34:03 <Vorpal> cuelink 5271/tdp # StageSoft CueLink messaging
11:34:03 <Vorpal> cuelink-disc 5271/udp # StageSoft CueLink discovery
11:34:32 <yorick> the d is not far from the c
11:34:48 <Vorpal> yorick, assuming qwerty
11:35:03 <Vorpal> probably a safe assumption though
11:35:04 <yorick> most people have qwerty
11:36:31 <Phantom_Hoover> yorick, you know there's a huge table of constants on the esolangs wiki?
11:37:12 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: I know that, but I need something smaller :P
11:38:46 <Vorpal> yorick, if you are taking part in this competition it seems like cheating to help you
11:39:13 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: stop helping me
11:39:44 <yorick> cells are unsigned 8-bit
11:44:30 <Vorpal> 'Note that even very well-known de facto uses of EtherTypes are not always recorded in the IEEE list of EtherType values. For example, EtherType 0x0806 (used by ARP) appears in the IEEE list only as "Symbolics, Inc., Protocol unavailable."'
11:45:35 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: anything lower than 74
11:46:14 <yorick> (the idea is to print a string "CodeCup")
11:46:48 <EgoBot> 80 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>+.>+.<<+.+.>.>++++++.-----.>-. [400]
11:46:49 <Vorpal> that will iirc include a newline
11:46:56 <Vorpal> and it is rather stupid
11:47:04 <Vorpal> yeah, doesn't help you much
11:47:18 <yorick> that's 74 without the \n
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11:48:53 <Vorpal> yorick, anyway there are obvious ways to make that shorter, due to the competition nature of the thing I won't help you with that though
11:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> yorick, I can get 67,100,111 in 47 characters, but that's probably not enough.
11:54:31 <yorick> I am reusing the C already
12:02:58 * yorick should put an ignore on that line
12:07:55 <yorick> I should somehow be able to take advantage of the fact that they are all one more than a multiple of 11
12:08:49 <Vorpal> indeed you should. And 11 is probably shorter as a a calculation of something else
12:09:54 <yorick> +++++[>++<-]+ <-- that's 13
12:10:08 <yorick> well...its size is 13, it calculates 11
12:10:25 <yorick> +++[>+++<-]++ <-- that's also 13
12:14:33 <fizzie> There is that list of constants at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants but of course for a longer string it most likely is not sensible to just concatenate those.
12:16:09 <fizzie> The text generator used by the bot can do it in 73 characters with the "-t 3" flag and no newline.
12:20:31 <fizzie> (I sure hope I didn't accidentally help.)
12:21:45 * yorick will not look at the textgenerator
12:21:49 <yorick> and I already knew about the constants
12:27:14 <yorick> I also have it in 73 chars :/
12:32:10 <fizzie> The text generator is limited to programs of that very simple form, so it's not going to figure out anything very clever. (No nested loops or anything.)
12:32:22 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: HMMMMM!
12:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor's hg repository for the esologs cuts of at the exact same byte as clog's!
12:33:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, um, it fetches from clog afaik
12:33:41 <Vorpal> it is just his way to store clog data
12:34:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, your own client may log
12:34:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, same goes for your bouncer
12:34:20 <fizzie> I don't know of any other public logs.
12:34:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maybe time to set up something yourself?
12:34:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm interested in the logs from when I was offline and my computer off.
12:34:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so use a bouncer on a vps :P
12:35:37 <fizzie> Spare no expense! What's more important, your next lunch or adequate #esoteric log coverage?
12:35:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a VPS? No. Or rather: depends. Not for general use though, and I have my own bouncer on a server on my lam
12:36:10 <Vorpal> but there are reasonable free public shell services. A few at least.
12:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you have logs for last night, and will you give them to me?
12:36:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, 1) yes I have them 2) why should I, you have been acting like a jerk towards me most of the time
12:36:52 <fizzie> Didn't you go through this already? At least I think I saw something like that in the logs.
12:37:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why should I trust you? ehird has too much influence over you. And he promised similar things in the past for me providing some info only I had....
12:37:54 <Vorpal> and um that didn't exactly work out well
12:38:05 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Here's an idea: reform as a cube.
12:38:17 <Vorpal> more people should do that
12:38:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Cuber.
12:39:40 <fizzie> Phantom_Cuber: You should put that in your CV, that's a really nice way of putting it.
12:39:53 <fizzie> "I'm not that much of a jerk." Definite hiring potential.
12:39:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, how old are you now again?
12:40:13 <Vorpal> what? really? I thought you refused to tell people?
12:40:29 <fizzie> 6227020800 years; an ancient.
12:40:34 <Vorpal> if you are that desperate for logs, you are addicted or something, can't be healthy :P
12:42:47 <Vorpal> okay I will filter out private info from logs
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12:43:57 <Phantom_Cuber> I suppose I should point out that I'm not actually 13.
12:44:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, so how old are you really?
12:45:49 <Vorpal> I hope that you really stop being so much of a jerk though, probably not likely, but oh well...
12:46:17 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/CXgQ
12:46:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, and why did you not consider asking fizzie? It is well known he keeps logs after all
12:47:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Cuber, why what?
12:47:45 <Vorpal> 11. Security Considerations
12:47:45 <Vorpal> This document is about security; as such, there are no additional
12:47:45 <Vorpal> security considerations.
12:48:00 <Vorpal> a bit silly to even need to include such a section in an RFC
12:48:24 <Vorpal> (from "RFC 5062 - Security Attacks Found Against the Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) and Current Countermeasures")
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12:52:01 <Flonk> Guys, whats your HTML Editor of choice (Windows)? I've tried Dreamweaver for some days now, but its just too heavy.
12:53:12 <Vorpal> (but I use a text editor with syntax highlighting for html, I don't know any windows apps, but surely something like emacs has been ported)
12:56:35 <fizzie> There's a Windows port of gvim, that's not too shabby. It's not exactly an "HTML Editor" though.
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13:49:47 <yorick> yay, I got a solution in 70 *O*
13:53:25 <Zuu> Ohnoes! a solution!
13:53:53 * Zuu mixes in some chemicals in an attempt to neutralize the solution
13:54:28 <yorick> Zuu: a solution to the "make the smallest possible BF code that prints "CodeCup""
13:55:05 * Zuu looks at his selection of chemicals ...
13:55:21 <Zuu> Yeah.. i dont have what it takes to neutralize that :/
13:55:49 <yorick> +++++++++++[->+++[->++>+++>+++<<<]>>+<<<]>>+.>+.>+.+.<<.>++++++.-----. yay
13:59:09 <Zuu> so what does this give: ++++++++[>++[->++++++<<]>><<]>>.>+>++.<.>++++----. ?
14:01:48 <yorick> it gives 0x7 0x2 0x7 0x2
14:02:07 <Zuu> Pretty close, eh?
14:03:04 <Zuu> Thats probably my first and last attempt at writing anything that remotely resembles BF source
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14:05:49 <yorick> Zuu: http://pastebin.com/drd9hPyE (give it input C) was my first attempt
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15:03:20 <Zuu> cant say my attempt was very honest since i really just took what you pasted, and removed random characters :P
15:05:40 <yorick> are genetic algorithms any great for bf code generation?
15:07:27 <quintopia> languages that work well for local search techniques for problem solving are ones that have a semi-continuous solution space
15:07:55 <quintopia> the subset of BF including +,-,., and , have this property
15:07:57 <Zuu> While it might not work well for BF i think it works far better for BF than so so many other languages
15:08:15 <quintopia> the whole [] construct doesn't really
15:08:51 -!- alise has joined.
15:09:28 <alise> Anyone have a copy of the logs?
15:10:19 <yorick> quintopia: a testrun of http://code.google.com/p/bf-code-generation/ reveals that you are right
15:10:25 <Zuu> its just a amtter of transforming the loop construct into a [[[[[[[[[ construct, where the number of ['s tells how many of the following characters are supposed to be looped
15:10:33 <quintopia> alise: i was in the room, but i may or may not have logged it >.>
15:11:17 <Zuu> i dont know what the < and > means in bf though
15:11:33 <quintopia> so that only primitive recursive functions can be generated?
15:11:54 <Zuu> quintopia, no its simply a syntactical change
15:12:10 <quintopia> well, i mean, that's cool and all, most biological computers (people for instance) can only compute primitive recursive functions anyway. . .
15:12:32 <Zuu> aaa[xxxxxx]bbb would be written aaa[[[[[[[xxxxxxbbb
15:13:03 <quintopia> yeah, i don't think that changes anything really about the difficulty of GA on it
15:13:28 * alise sends off an email to Faré
15:13:34 <alise> asking him to restart clog
15:15:07 <quintopia> is clog supposed to be more a pun on what happens to drains or shoes that make sounds?
15:15:24 <alise> i think the former.
15:15:46 <alise> knowing Faré's political opinions he'll probably ask me to pay for the restart ;)
15:16:17 <quintopia> alise: i have about 24 hours worth of logs for sure. you want anything recent?
15:16:41 <alise> quintopia: every line after
15:16:41 <alise> 14:25:25 * Sgeo murders Flash
15:16:41 <alise> 14:25:39 <ais523> I think the stdlib version loops once per bit
15:16:47 <alise> (those timestamps may be wrong for you)
15:16:51 <alise> to when I joined would be nice :)
15:17:01 <alise> to reconstruct the timeline later if I ever get around to creating a full log DB
15:19:53 <quintopia> you were in the chan until midnight my time. don't you have logs of that?
15:20:31 <alise> quintopia: i left the channel a few times accidentally though
15:21:02 <alise> loading this 2.6 mb log file is fun
15:21:32 <alise> quintopia: yeah, okay, I only need my quit to my join
15:21:45 <Zuu> whops wrong window
15:22:58 <yorick> http://pastebin.com/UVXyzY2t <-- is this really horrible? it generates BF code from desired-string input :)
15:23:59 <quintopia> I actually have a full log of this channel for the entire time i've been here
15:24:11 <alise> yorick: how does that work for sufficiently big numbers?
15:24:15 <quintopia> but i have a file containing just the last 24 hours for you here...
15:24:24 <alise> quintopia: filebin.ca?
15:24:45 <alise> the timestream must be preserved!
15:24:47 <yorick> alise: it generates code wrong a string between "A"-"z"
15:24:53 <yorick> so no need for anything bigger
15:25:33 <alise> it should totally use dynamic programming or something!
15:26:17 <yorick> alise: it should, that's part 3 of the challenge :P
15:26:50 <quintopia> http://filebin.ca/xnyacp/furalise.txt
15:26:55 <yorick> alise: dutch informatics olympiad
15:27:05 <alise> yorick: laaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl
15:27:08 <yorick> alise: so don't help me :)
15:27:17 <alise> yorick: shouldn't you be coding :)
15:27:22 <alise> quintopia: groan @ filename
15:27:35 <alise> quintopia: 10:23 < alise> oerjanerer ;; you know, i have all that logged
15:27:41 <yorick> alise: just finished part 2...still thinking/planning
15:27:46 <alise> up to 00:55 -!- alise [~alise@91.105.114.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving] :-P
15:28:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:28:53 <quintopia> alise: with irssi, it's easier to just dump the entire scrollback buffer to a file
15:28:53 <yorick> part one was make a normal bf code generator, part 2 was make something small yourself, part 3 is make a size-optimizing code generator
15:29:09 <alise> quintopia-2010-10-02-03; what a terrible filename
15:29:30 <alise> ideally some day I'll get a hold of Vorpal's private logs and merge them with the clog ones :P
15:29:58 <alise> i'm too anal to not give it a meaningful name!
15:37:03 * yorick goes looking for something on dynamic programming
15:37:25 <alise> yorick: does it really say dynamic programming?
15:37:32 <alise> i was joking, but i guess it could help
15:37:43 <alise> yorick: genetic programming is usually what is done for this
15:37:57 <alise> !bf_textgen yorick
15:38:08 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
15:38:11 <EgoBot> 44 ++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.-..+.>. [282]
15:38:13 <yorick> alise: it just says "write something that generates a size-optimized bf-code for a random string"
15:38:35 <yorick> alise: I looked at genetic programming, it appears to be horrible
15:38:38 <alise> yorick: genetic programming will help a ton. dynamic programming won't. the above uses genetic programming, so does everything else
15:38:40 <alise> that's all i'll say :)
15:38:57 <alise> yorick: oh, you don't, like, genetically program from nothing to the string
15:39:15 <alise> i think you start with a regular RLE'd one, and then start mutating that in ways that make it smaller
15:39:17 <alise> i could be totally wrong though
15:39:20 <alise> so maybe ignore me
15:39:48 <alise> yorick: i'd link you to the one egobot uses but *uh* pretty sure that's against your rules
15:40:13 <quintopia> i should think a dynamic programming solution would do pretty well...
15:40:22 <alise> 03:44 < coppro> crap
15:40:24 <yorick> does it use the java thing?
15:40:30 <alise> quoted for prosperity
15:40:35 <alise> yorick: uhh, yes, it does use some sort of java thing
15:40:51 <yorick> does it use the "bf-code-generation" java thing?
15:41:01 <alise> i don't know; however i can link you.
15:41:20 <yorick> the link would contain it
15:41:30 <alise> yorick: no -- egobot has its own copy of everything.
15:41:39 <alise> http://codu.org/projects/trac/egobot/export/114%3A1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen/textgen.tar.gz
15:41:58 <alise> no, wait, just .class :D
15:42:04 <alise> yorick: i distinctly recall it was in a cvs repository
15:42:07 <alise> but it *could* have just evolved into that
15:42:49 <alise> yorick: how are they bowlderising "brainfuck"? :)
15:42:59 <yorick> https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen
15:43:19 <nooga> yorick: hmm, are you Dutch?
15:43:49 <nooga> yorick: did you work on OTS ?
15:43:54 <alise> yorick: booring :)
15:44:03 <alise> <yorick> https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen ;; this is just egobot's launcher for it
15:44:23 <alise> i'm not sure how dynamic programming would help.
15:44:43 <yorick> alise: I found the .java already :/
15:44:59 <alise> yorick: ohh, right, it's .java
15:45:02 <alise> i was thinking .class
15:45:05 <alise> sorry, i'm dumb :)
15:45:23 <alise> 03:49 < Phantom_Hoover> Wait, doesn't one of Gregor's bots keep logs?
15:45:28 <alise> no, that just mirrors clog
15:45:42 <alise> 04:17 < Vorpal> if you don't have them: your own issue
15:45:42 <alise> 04:18 < Vorpal> I could of course share mine, but why
15:45:48 <alise> "*that* would decrease my average overall snottiness!"
15:46:32 <alise> yorick: that has nothing to do with the algorithm :P
15:46:56 <yorick> alise: it makes it about 28% less readable
15:47:00 <alise> 04:59 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if coppro wants the logs I will paste the link in the channel.
15:47:00 <alise> 04:59 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I see no point in helping you, you seem to hate me usually.
15:47:05 <alise> it's that time of month again for Vorpal!
15:47:22 <alise> at least it doesn't have any malloc()s, sure Java is ridiculously verbose, but you should easily be able to figure out the algorithm
15:47:28 <alise> yorick: oh, i thought that C was yours
15:47:45 <alise> (note: I hate Java, C and Python, so you cannot rebut >_>)
15:54:05 <alise> yorick: congratulations, that's the worst language you've named so far! :D
15:55:05 <alise> yorick: is fucked up in strange ways. But at least it's based on Scheme..
15:59:32 <alise> Vorpal: i was wondering why warzone 2100 was so polished, then i googled it and found out it was originally a commercial game
16:02:07 <yorick> !bf_textgen -g 200 -t 3 abcdefg
16:02:21 <alise> yorick: doesn't it do "$foo" in the launcher script?
16:02:25 <alise> one may want to run it locally.
16:02:34 <yorick> alise: it works locally :)
16:02:49 <yorick> ++++++++++++[>++++++++>><<<-]>+.+.+.+.+.+.+. <-- it brings the world things like this :)
16:03:27 <alise> yorick: yeah >><< is a special kind of stupidity :)
16:03:31 <alise> yorick: just run a BF->BF optimiser on it
16:03:35 <alise> not difficult to elide things like that at all
16:03:55 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
16:04:19 <yorick> hmm I should study it, forget all about it and write my own :)
16:04:36 <quintopia> doesn't egobot's do that automatically?
16:04:48 <Sgeo> []........[elidable]
16:04:58 <yorick> quintopia: it should :P
16:05:27 <alise> 07:21 * yorick will not look at the textgenerator
16:05:37 <nooga> http://www4.kingdomofloathing.com/createplayer.php?
16:05:47 <nooga> in KoL are sooooooo awesome
16:06:12 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:06:57 <yorick> alise: that was for writing my codecup text thing
16:07:00 <yorick> this is a generator :P
16:16:58 <Sgeo> I see a red robe and I want to turn it black
16:17:35 <quintopia> I want to put it on with my wizard hat
16:18:08 -!- Harpyon_ has quit (Quit: Harpyon_).
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16:26:47 -!- tombom_ has quit (Changing host).
16:26:47 -!- tombom_ has joined.
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16:28:11 <alise> 07:37 < Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why should I trust you? ehird has too much influence over you. And he promised similar things in the past for me providing some info only I had....
16:28:20 <alise> Phanty, you have been CORRUPTED! You HORRIBLE BASTARD!
16:30:03 <alise> 07:45 < Vorpal> I hope that you really stop being so much of a jerk though, probably not likely, but oh well... ;; he's only a jerk when you are
16:34:33 <yorick> are people in this channel generally emotionally instable?
16:35:41 <Vorpal> yorick, only a few of them
16:36:08 <yorick> Vorpal: does that include you?
16:36:38 <Vorpal> yorick, well personally I don't think so, or at least there are far worse people in here.
16:36:49 <Vorpal> yorick, rather it is that I and alise don't get along at all
16:37:06 <alise> yorick: no no it's very simple
16:37:09 <alise> everyone in here is cool except Vorpal ;)
16:37:50 <Vorpal> I would say instead that everyone in here apart from alise, and to some degree phantom_hoover, are cool
16:42:19 <Vorpal> alise, besides you don't get along with Quad*r*e*scence (* to avoid highlight), and a few more people. So your statement was exaggerated presumably
16:42:47 <alise> he's just a troll. and never talks.
16:42:50 <alise> so that doesn't really count
16:44:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:46:19 <fizzie> oerjan: E's been plungered.
16:46:43 <alise> oerjan: i have logs
16:47:00 <alise> and, unlike Vorpal (watch carefully yorick -- this is how a professional does it), i won't argue with you before linking them
16:47:09 <alise> http://filebin.ca/xnyacp/furalise.txt, props to quintopia
16:47:49 <oerjan> I MAY STILL HAVE TO BAN YOU FOR THAT
16:48:11 <alise> It's funny because oerjan has ops and never uses them!
16:48:34 <fizzie> "Never" indeed; more oftener than, say, I, I'd say.
16:48:36 <oerjan> those logs seem incomplete as well
16:48:48 <alise> they are complete up until when i got in here
16:49:15 <alise> i can give you those if you want
16:49:35 <oerjan> well unless someone pinged me, never mind
16:50:02 -!- Phantom_Cuber has joined.
16:51:21 <oerjan> < Vorpal> not sure about dumping scrollback though <-- i did manage to do that and start logging into the same file once, but it was a pain i thought
16:52:50 <oerjan> two different commands, and not a common format for choosing a file i think
16:55:20 <oerjan> < yorick> how many have come here this week asking for the smallest way to initialize cells in brainfuck to 67, 100 and 111? <-- we have a wiki page for that, brainfuck constants
16:56:12 <oerjan> the wrapping versions are afaik minimal
16:56:54 <yorick> oerjan: I have found my solution already :)
16:57:15 <yorick> oerjan: and I know about the wiki page, needed something smaller
16:58:25 <oerjan> oh you mean to initialize to all three at once? i guess that might be smaller than combining the separate algorithms.
16:59:18 <yorick> +++++++++++[->+++[->++>+++>+++<<<]>>+<<<]>>+.>+.>+.+.<<.>++++++.-----. it is :)
16:59:46 <yorick> it prints "CodeCup" :)
16:59:56 <oerjan> > map chr [67,100,111]
17:00:59 <oerjan> that looks a little more complicated than what EgoBot's program does
17:01:02 <yorick> (part of the dutch informatics olympiad)
17:01:52 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:02:17 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
17:02:43 <oerjan> i cannot see it in the list :(
17:02:44 <EgoBot> 82 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>---.>+.<<.+.>.>++++++.-----.>. [135]
17:02:51 <oerjan> oh maybe it's separate from both
17:02:53 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:03:36 -!- FireFly has joined.
17:03:42 <alise> yeah it's an actual interp
17:03:46 <oerjan> it doesn't make nesting loops of course, it's a rather simple algorithm
17:03:57 <alise> because it takes command-line arguments and stuff and blah
17:04:03 <alise> oerjan: yeah i want to make my own now...
17:04:16 <yorick> and I *have* to make my own now
17:04:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:04:23 <alise> Zuu's idea of [^n meaning next n instructions are in a loop is interesting... but not that exact syntax
17:04:28 <alise> since that stops you doing [[ (BF)
17:04:41 <alise> not sure how to do it though
17:04:46 <oerjan> yorick: well you seem to have beat it already
17:05:01 <yorick> oerjan: I have not made my own generator
17:06:32 * alise decides to enable viewing window contents when resizing, this *is* 2010...
17:07:40 <yorick> alise: my windows actually scale while resizing
17:07:52 <yorick> and change size when done
17:07:52 <myndzi> hee, i still have that option off
17:08:00 <alise> yorick: i tried that once, it was godawful
17:08:10 <alise> it makes you *think* you have some perception of what it'll look like and you decide how to resize it based on that
17:08:27 <alise> X11 really sucks at resizing though, especially with browsers
17:08:30 <alise> it's quite pathetic
17:09:07 <alise> of course with real resizing the window border flashes. lol.
17:09:21 <oerjan> < yorick> but stop helping me <-- IT'S IN OUR BLOOD
17:09:24 <alise> Linux graphics: Think you know how much it sucks? Nope! More than that!
17:09:37 <yorick> oerjan: but then I'll have cheated :/
17:09:51 <alise> no, no, just credit us as ... creative assistants!
17:10:15 <alise> oerjan: I like how helping people is the deep, dark, horrible flaw in our blood.
17:10:22 <yorick> alise: I cannot actually do that :/
17:10:27 <alise> yorick: we're joking :)
17:11:00 <yorick> the actual live resizing is horrible :)
17:11:00 <oerjan> alise: IT'S NOT PROPER CAPITALISM. well unless we charge i guess.
17:11:33 <alise> yorick: only on X11 :P
17:11:50 <alise> and that's just because X11 is the most hilariously 80s thing ever dreamt of
17:12:08 <quintopia> more hilariously 80s than back to the future?
17:12:13 <alise> let's buy one million dollar server and five gajillion $5 monitors and keyboards!
17:12:30 <oerjan> it cannot be much of an olympiad if you're actually capable of _contacting the outside world_ during the contest...
17:12:31 <yorick> alise: but it has nice ssh forwarding :)
17:12:33 <alise> quintopia: well. in software :P
17:12:36 <quintopia> more hilariously 80s than everything about the show "everybody hates chris"?
17:12:41 <yorick> oerjan: this is just the first round
17:12:43 <alise> yorick: yeaah but toolkits should do that really
17:12:50 <alise> if it just sent down gtk messages and local gtk rendered it
17:12:52 <alise> it'd be much nicer
17:12:56 <quintopia> alise: tell that to my old TRS-80 games :D
17:13:04 <alise> quintopia: fine! late 80s!
17:13:20 <yorick> alise: but then you'd need _toolkits_
17:13:24 <alise> <oerjan> it cannot be much of an olympiad if you're actually capable of _contacting the outside world_ during the contest... ;; "We will now seal you inside a Faraday cage. There will be no food."
17:13:34 <alise> yorick: because you program in pure X-over-socket? :)
17:14:06 <quintopia> that sounds like a brilliant set up
17:14:37 <yorick> and then I'll secretly DLAN over it :/
17:14:48 <alise> yorick: no, no, you get a hole in the wall with a computer in it
17:15:02 <yorick> alise: I'll hack the computer!
17:15:03 <alise> just a keyboard -- without those pesky unneeded F keys and the like -- and a monitor, running only a compile/run button and an editor
17:15:09 <alise> plus some paper on the wall telling you what to do
17:15:13 <alise> good luck getting past that
17:15:24 <alise> oh yeah and it's all baked into the wall so you can't get any of it out
17:15:31 <yorick> it's the part that allows you to run your own code :)
17:15:39 <alise> yorick: in a qemu VM
17:15:56 <yorick> qemu has been proven unsafe
17:16:02 <alise> yorick: qemu inside virtualbox inside ...
17:16:04 <alise> without virtualisation
17:16:11 <alise> oh yeah and the editor is custom and only supports arrow keys, backspace/delete, and typing
17:16:38 <yorick> I somehow don't think this is gonna happen
17:23:06 <oerjan> * Zuu mixes in some chemicals in an attempt to neutralize the solution
17:23:30 <oerjan> A NEUTRALIZED SOLUTION IS STILL A SOLUTION
17:24:03 <oerjan> you probably want to make it precipitate
17:25:55 * quintopia mixes in some chemicals to precipitate the solution
17:28:12 <oerjan> well it _could_ be he doesn't mind solutions, as long as they're not too basic
17:29:22 <quintopia> apparently 2-subscript is unicode. I don't transmit unicode.
17:34:55 <alise> pikhq: You know you're anal when you decode FLAC files just to re-encode them with --best.
17:38:31 -!- Kordalien has joined.
17:39:21 <alise> pikhq: ...how the hell is this .flac file smaller than a --best re-encoding?
17:42:01 <oerjan> alise: ALIEN TECHNOLOGY
17:42:08 <oerjan> it's the only possible answer
17:42:43 <alise> LOLZ NOW I HAVE TO FIND A TRACK THAT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO
17:43:31 <quintopia> does there exist a turing-complete language in which a program's inverse is just that program written backwards? is that even possible?
17:43:50 <oerjan> quintopia: Kayak comes close
17:44:36 <alise> quintopia: i thought about that once.
17:44:48 <alise> oerjan: only close?
17:44:58 <alise> because we don't know whether it's TC or not?
17:45:14 <oerjan> you also have to switch to the other matching bracket
17:45:28 <alise> that's fixable, surely?
17:45:29 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: yes
17:45:33 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: they're jawesome
17:46:07 <oerjan> well yeah you could have a matching system where ) ... ( and ( ... ) are both possible
17:46:20 <quintopia> alise: it's easily fixable in fact. just make it so that at the top level either ordering is equivalent
17:46:21 <oerjan> but i don't recall that kayak does that
17:46:33 <alise> quintopia: how, with nesting?
17:46:43 <quintopia> of course, once below the top level, you have to use the convention you chose at the top level
17:46:46 <alise> you need whitespace-sensitivity :D
17:46:57 <alise> did that with <> and ><
17:47:06 <oerjan> alise: the first ) matches the previous ( because there _is_ a previous ( to match, simply
17:47:25 <alise> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/nopol.txt unfortunately lacks any examples
17:47:34 <alise> hmm wait that ><> ending sequence might have one
17:48:33 <oerjan> kayak is TC iirc. but not all programs actually _halt_, in which case reversing it isn't really _that_ meaningful
17:48:40 <alise> jesus, it would be easier to buy the fucking single and extract the track off at this point
17:48:56 <alise> "kayak is TC iirc. but not all programs actually _halt_"
17:48:59 <alise> oerjan: there is no tc tag on the page
17:49:01 <alise> i imagine it is unknown
17:49:10 <alise> "kayak is TC iirc. but not all programs actually _halt_" <-- just love the redundancy of this
17:49:14 <quintopia> oerjan: well, that's good enough. We only care about reversibility for halting computations.
17:49:38 <oerjan> also you sometimes need to include a bit bucket for tossing information into, if two inputs give the same output
17:49:53 <quintopia> which is something any reversible TC language requires
17:49:56 <alise> quintopia: it could ununhalt unforever!
17:50:01 <quintopia> a place to store unnecessary information
17:50:23 <quintopia> because all function have to be bijections for invertibility to make sense
17:51:39 <quintopia> but "the set of all functions with finite output" is equivalent to "the set of all bijections, possibly with some of the output discarded"
17:52:39 <quintopia> errr.. . ."finite output" should probably be "output sized as a function of input size"...
17:55:07 <quintopia> one thing i don't like about kayak (and other reversible languages like befreak) is they include arbitrary rules just to force reversibility
17:55:22 <quintopia> like "In addition, code must result in an empty temporary register when the structure is exited."
17:56:03 <quintopia> it would be nice if the limitations on the language fell out of the semantics of provided instructions rather than externally imposed limitations.
17:57:19 * oerjan once pondered how to do reversible jumps in a way that didn't depend on a jump target having to be a jump itself
17:57:38 <quintopia> Phantom_Cuber: Burro has some neat constructs, but reversible brainfuck pulled off the whole "set of programs form a group under concatenation" thing better IMO
17:58:26 <oerjan> that's similar. i thought you could have jump flag, which was toggled by the jump instruction. if the target wasn't an instruction toggling the jump flag, the machine would just _keep on_ jumping
17:58:38 <alise> don't count as "reversible"
17:58:43 <alise> f(x,y) = (x+y, x-y)
17:58:45 <oerjan> it could even have a delay for pipelining
17:59:29 <oerjan> a sort of "you cannot change the jump countdown if it is between -N and N"
17:59:42 <quintopia> alise: or f(x,y)=(x,x+y) or (y,x+y)
18:00:44 <oerjan> quintopia: the simple version with just a flag, or the pipelining version?
18:01:08 <quintopia> i'm guessing the flag thing is like unto Burro's implicit loop?
18:01:33 <alise> now if i buy the single, i need a usb optical drive
18:02:14 <alise> yeah but this is all for the sake of having a flac version rather than mp3 :)
18:02:21 <oerjan> you'd have a program counter as usual, and then a jump destination register. if at the end of an instruction the jump flag is set, then those two registers are switched
18:02:29 <alise> (that's for a SINGLE! on CD!)
18:02:39 <quintopia> you mean like a jump with offset instead of a jump to destination directly?
18:02:57 <oerjan> it doesn't have to be an offset
18:03:13 <oerjan> it _could_ be that instead, of course
18:03:51 <quintopia> so you store the destination to jump back to in your main register before toggling the jump flag
18:04:51 <oerjan> oh and the jump flag is _not_ toggled by the jumping itself
18:04:59 <oerjan> that's essential for reversibility
18:05:01 <alise> can someone *please* explain to me how on earth a CD single can cost £76.95 :)
18:05:35 <oerjan> but if the destination address contains an instruction toggling the jump flag, everything works as expected
18:06:11 <quintopia> hard to see what makes it reversible
18:07:07 <oerjan> then after the destination instruction has been performed, since the jump flag is still set, the program counter and the destination register are switched _again_
18:07:58 <oerjan> you'd essentially keep jumping back and forth every other instruction until something toggles the flag, i think
18:08:20 <oerjan> (the usual increment of program counter would apply as well, of course)
18:09:05 <quintopia> so the jump jumps to what was in the dest register BEFORE or AFTER swapping?
18:09:24 <oerjan> you could also include a flag for reversing execution direction in this, that's useful for "cascades" which compute something, store the result then uncompute again to save memory
18:09:50 <oerjan> quintopia: AFTER swapping the program counter _is_ the old destination register
18:10:11 <oerjan> jumping is just changing the program counter, after all
18:10:24 <quintopia> so you're swapping the PC with the dest register
18:11:30 <quintopia> so what if i want to jump from A to B then from B+6 to C? how does that look in the reversed version?
18:13:21 <oerjan> well after unperforming instruction C, presumably the destination register will contain B+7, and the jump flag is set, so it is swapped with the PC, which is then decremented, the B+6 instruction un-unloaded, etc.
18:13:56 <oerjan> the B+6 instruction should toggle the flag, as should the B instruction
18:14:17 <oerjan> well all of those instructions mentioned need to toggle the flag
18:14:27 <quintopia> oh because they had to toggle it to begin with, they'll toggle it now too
18:14:40 <quintopia> so where's the language based on this?
18:15:22 <quintopia> so what does the pipelined version do?
18:17:27 <oerjan> you'd have a jump preparation flag and a jump countdown register instead of just a jump flag
18:18:32 <oerjan> er call that jump countdown flag
18:19:08 <oerjan> while the JCF is set, the JCR is decremented after each instruction. when JCR=0 swap as above.
18:20:33 <oerjan> the pipelining is effected by some additional restrictions: you can only toggle the JCF when JCR is _outside_ some [-N,N] interval, and you can only change the JCR explicitly when the JCF is off, and never to a value in [-N,N]
18:21:10 <oerjan> this prevents all changing of scheduled jumps that are within a too short distance
18:22:46 <oerjan> whether this would be very useful is another question
18:22:49 <quintopia> so you write a program that knows when it is going to jump so that it can put the branch instruction into the pipeline in advance?
18:23:18 <oerjan> yeah, and so it can load instructions at the destination in advance as well
18:23:31 <oerjan> because it knows in good time when it will switch over
18:26:22 <oerjan> "bf2kayak.pl is a Brainfuck-to-Kayak compiler, written in Perl. I haven't tested it carefully, but it works with some simple programs. I hope this will resolve any lingering doubts as to the Turing-completeness of Kayak."
18:26:41 <oerjan> (from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/kayak/doc/kayak.html)
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18:32:31 <zzo38> What is wrong with the log program?
18:33:16 <zzo38> Today's file is there, but empty.
18:34:40 <zzo38> Perhaps if they did it like how CthulhuIRCd does the log, it might work better, but I don't know for sure.
18:35:17 <zzo38> (i.e. on the server side)
18:35:42 <quintopia> http://filebin.ca/qfbjap/zzo38.txt this is the last ~24 hours
18:36:41 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, it is a bit different format than the clog
18:37:00 <zzo38> It is also a different timezone
18:37:38 <quintopia> well forgive me for not being perfect
18:38:19 <zzo38> I am just mentioning that the format is different.
18:43:18 <zzo38> This is another kind of IRC log format (so that you will not get mixed up with timezones): http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/SIRCL
18:44:28 <alise> quintopia: not that old school, they only offered redirection way back right?
18:44:34 <alise> whereas that points to zzo38's actual computer afaik
18:45:16 <quintopia> they've been doing dns for years too
18:46:01 <Phantom_Cuber> zzo38, incidentally, did anyone else express their displeasure with the addition of Dottyweb to articles?
18:46:39 <alise> i dunno if i got around to saying so on the talk page
18:46:40 <zzo38> Phantom_Cuber: No. Nobody expressed anything about the addition of Dottyweb to articles. (Although I did put it in the summary text so that you can complain on the Talk page)
18:46:52 <alise> zzo38: can i be lazy and complain here?
18:47:21 <alise> i'd be fine with it if we had a discussion about it first and agreed on it
18:47:22 <zzo38> alise: You can, but that won't affect my decision unless you complain on the Talk page.
18:47:37 <alise> i'm not going to complain in one specific place just because you want me to...
18:47:42 <zzo38> And then we can have a proper discussion about it with everyone else on the wiki at any time.
18:48:03 <alise> generally the discussion comes before the change
18:48:11 <zzo38> alise: It does not have to be on a specific Talk page, just put your complaints in any wiki page that is relevant.
18:49:12 <alise> i don't mind a discussion on the wiki, but i don't think i should have to initiate it, as i didn't make the changes
18:50:34 <zzo38> OK, I will initiate the discussion on the page of the wiki instead, though. http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Help_talk:Dottyweb
18:50:43 <zzo38> Is that sufficient?
18:50:54 <alise> Sure, I'll write some sort of reply.
18:54:01 <alise> zzo38: I have added a comment, and so has Phantom_Cuber.
18:55:43 <alise> coppro: am I in time for mathNEWS?
18:56:45 <alise> coppro: how long do I have? :P
18:56:49 <coppro> you have at least 30 more hours
18:57:28 <alise> coppro: oh, it's assembled on Monday, not Sunday?
18:57:39 <alise> i thought monday was just when you guys printed it or whatever
18:58:21 <coppro> Monday is the writing/proofing night, then the editors spend Tuesday doing layout and Wednesday it gets sent to the printer
18:58:27 <coppro> Friday it gets released
18:59:02 <alise> oh, that's much more time than I thought, then
18:59:17 <alise> I thought Sunday was a crazy day of proofing and layout and Monday it was sent to the printer, from what you said
19:00:39 <alise> did you get my link to the draft? i'm not sure whether i've got my crazyML right :)
19:01:03 <zzo38> I will stop adding the {{.file| templates to things that I did not write myself. (If you think it should be removed from the other pages that I did not add it to, please do so yourself.)
19:01:59 <coppro> alise: I did, but I have not read it
19:02:08 <coppro> and I do not have time right now. I have to go sort boardgames
19:08:58 <zzo38> I would like to know if there is any other IRC software that does channel log on the server.
19:09:41 <alise> zzo38: cmeme used to
19:09:43 <alise> but then it dieded
19:10:48 <alise> lambdabot doesn't; nor fungot or EgoBot or HackEgo
19:10:48 <fungot> alise: oh. what'd he want?
19:10:50 <alise> just clog and botte
19:11:11 <fizzie> I don't think any of those are IRC servers that do server-side logging, which is what I think was asked.
19:11:34 <Phantom_Cuber> Oh, look. TV Tropes continues its march towards formal bureaucracy.
19:11:35 <fizzie> Based on the earlier thing about CthulhuIRCd.
19:11:39 <fizzie> But I might misinterpret.
19:11:39 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes it is what I ask
19:11:54 <Phantom_Cuber> Please don't list it on a work's page as a trope. Examples can go here. " This is on the Crazy Awesome page.
19:12:35 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: :'(
19:12:47 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: If it depresses you, browse WardsWiki a bit.
19:12:50 <alise> It cheers anyone up.
19:12:55 <alise> Well, any hopeless programming nerd.
19:13:06 <alise> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki I even clickified it for you!
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19:17:04 <quintopia> dear #esoteric: who wants me to document Hofstadter's typogenetics on the wiki?
19:21:31 <quintopia> i will do it if two more people respond
19:22:20 <Phantom_Cuber> I want to know what it is, so I suppose that's a "yes".
19:24:00 <Phantom_Cuber> OK, Nightmare Fuel is now classified as a subjective trope.
19:24:11 <Phantom_Cuber> i.e. it shouldn't be listed on the articles for works.
19:24:57 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> a
19:25:13 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: xDDD
19:25:18 <alise> quintopia: is that the TNT stuff?
19:25:28 <alise> quintopia: make sure to use the proper unicode though... at least i think he used some non-ASCII stuff
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19:25:47 <Phantom_Cuber> alise, the whole subjective trope list is depressing.
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19:26:07 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Who runs the thing, anyway?
19:26:12 <alise> Not even http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Tropes lists.
19:26:31 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: truly depressing
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19:26:36 <alise> TV Tropes is not Wiipedia!
19:27:26 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: stop it. stop.
19:27:31 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: is Big Bad on there
19:27:36 <alise> morals aren't objective!
19:27:39 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: put it on
19:29:04 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: LET'S FORK IT! (no)
19:29:47 <alise> TV Tropes: It's popular, now it sucks.
19:29:50 <Phantom_Cuber> Which is *about the fandom's reaction*, not the work itself.
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19:33:38 <alise> MAGNIFICENT BASTARD IS SUBJECTIVE?
19:33:41 <alise> EVERY FUCKING THING IS SUBJECTVIE!!!!
19:35:16 <Phantom_Cuber> Fast Eddie seems to have something to do with this.
19:36:19 <quintopia> alise: TNT is not a programming language per se. it has no imperative element to it.
19:36:57 <quintopia> typogenetics is the programming language designed to model the complexity of DNA/RNA/proteins
19:37:29 <alise> quintopia: oh that one
19:37:37 <alise> quintopia: also, many languages have no imperative element.
19:37:41 <alise> such as the lambda calculus
19:38:30 <quintopia> they usually have some implicit imperative element though
19:38:47 <alise> even if they don't...
19:38:48 <quintopia> like "evaluate this function by name"
19:38:49 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: [[Works for a major videogame producer as a hackist. Which is why he never goes into the Videogames section. Ever.
19:38:49 <alise> About to be fired unless he starts doing more matrix-algebraic hackitation than Tropering.]]
19:38:52 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: IRRITATING USE OF HACK
19:38:57 <alise> quintopia: that's a model in an imperative universe
19:38:59 <alise> not the language itself
19:39:26 <Phantom_Cuber> alise, never trust someone who actually calls themselves a hacker.
19:39:33 <quintopia> alise: no, but it is an imperative element of the universe in which the language finds itself
19:40:00 <quintopia> TNT on the other hand is in a universe purely dreamed of for the declaration and specification of theorems
19:40:03 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Or is Eric S. Raymond.
19:40:13 <quintopia> not for the specification of algorithms to decide them
19:40:24 <alise> quintopia: i think you're wrong but whatever, it's irrelevant :P
19:40:25 <Phantom_Cuber> alise, that's the Fundamental Theorem of Trustworthiness.
19:41:09 <quintopia> alise: do you draw any line between "programming language" and "formal system for typographic manipulation"?
19:41:29 <alise> from a page he links:
19:41:33 <alise> "Irish Travellers are not Gypsies, yet they are often called so by Gadjo (non-Gypsies)."
19:41:34 <coppro> alise: the code paragraphs are indented
19:41:40 <alise> quintopia: not really. maybe. bleh, whatever
19:41:44 <alise> coppro: the code paragraphs aren't
19:42:00 <alise> coppro: or, are you actually testing with the system or something?
19:42:21 <coppro> no, I was just looking at the previous issue
19:43:03 <alise> coppro: oh, right, i see
19:43:09 <alise> coppro: is the "print" line indented?
19:43:11 <alise> beyond the while statement
19:44:04 <alise> (also, is it actually shown as monospaced??)
19:54:56 <alise> coppro: bah! busy sorting board games no doubt
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19:57:10 <zzo38> Are you mad that I put too much money in your tea?
19:58:23 <alise> Yes, I like my tea to be cheap.
20:01:08 -!- iGO has joined.
20:01:36 <quintopia> what if the money is made of . . .tea leaves?
20:01:46 <flippo> Money is filthy, teaming with germs
20:02:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:02:59 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:04:31 <Phantom_Cuber> alise, incidentally, today's top story in the Edinburgh Evening News:
20:05:19 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: do they like the trams or not
20:05:47 <Phantom_Cuber> Where normal tabloids have pedos, the EEN has trams.
20:06:10 <alise> Link me to this site
20:06:22 <Phantom_Cuber> "TRAM BOSSES HAVE NO PLANS TO REPAIR CRACKED FOUNDATIONS"
20:06:41 <Phantom_Cuber> "TRAM WARS AS GERMAN CONTRACTOR WALKS OFF THE JOB"
20:08:09 <alise> "TRAM SHIFTS FOR POPE"
20:08:14 <zzo38> I played D&D game a few days ago, I try to win without making anyone else dead, I already managed to avoid kill the mindflayer and to sabotage the bell, now we can convince them the god Mask is dead
20:09:03 <zzo38> Many people do not like this kind of game they prefer to kill everyone and to avoid too much complicated ideas
20:09:23 <Phantom_Cuber> At one point they talked about the dangerous level of carbon given off by tram works.
20:10:11 <alise> zzo38: I prefer to kill everyone in real life.
20:10:11 <flippo> Seem to be a lot of quotes from tories.
20:10:24 <Phantom_Cuber> "OWN GOAL FOR COMPUTER GAMES FAN ROBBED OF NEW TITLE WITHIN MINUTES"
20:10:39 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: what xD
20:11:00 <zzo38> alise: O, you prefer to kill everyone in real life? Include you?
20:11:14 <alise> zzo38: Yes; me after everyone else.
20:11:17 <alise> Canada is next on my list.
20:11:18 <Phantom_Cuber> alise, not one paragraph in that article is more than a sentence long.
20:11:27 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Do link. Before you die.
20:11:44 <Phantom_Cuber> http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Own-goal-for-computer-games.6562082.jp
20:12:02 <alise> Or Java Page? Who knows.
20:12:22 <Phantom_Cuber> "GIRLS WHO LEAVE SCHOOL EARLY MISSING OUT ON VITAL CANCER JAB"
20:12:26 <zzo38> I play D&D game try to don't kill everyone, is more interesting than the other way, isn't it?
20:12:46 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: CANCER jab???? What
20:12:51 <alise> zzo38: Yes. But in real life...
20:13:21 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: lawwwl
20:13:31 <zzo38> The people may be the biggest problem in real life, but that doesn't mean it is one that ought to be fixed. (At least not for another million years or so, if ever)
20:14:46 <alise> zzo38: Too late, I am already doing so.
20:15:32 -!- augur has joined.
20:15:57 <alise> A new 2D Worms game for the PC.
20:16:08 <alise> The day, I saw thought, never.
20:16:45 <alise> LESS TRAMS MORE WORMS
20:18:19 <quintopia> alise is making better nonsense than the newspaper
20:18:34 <alise> quintopia: Only nonsense to the uninformed, my friend!
20:19:04 <quintopia> "The day, I saw thought, never." this makes no sense to anyone informed or not
20:19:57 <quintopia> it's still not a very good sentence
20:20:04 <alise> Well, you know what I mean. :P
20:22:27 <Phantom_Cuber> This is obviously the catastrophe the Mayans predicted!
20:30:25 -!- ehird has joined.
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20:32:54 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: quintopia: was that you?
20:33:24 * Sgeo is not that evil
20:33:38 <Sgeo> Unless I said something like "This isn't actually ehird"
20:35:08 <quintopia> but i just walked into the kitchen and somehow i've got a really tasty spice smell on my fingers now
20:36:41 <alise> Who wants to give me lot sof money?!
20:37:13 <alise> did anyone whois that ehird when it was online?
20:37:34 <Sgeo> * ehird (d55ec16e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.94.193.110) has joined #esoteric
20:37:44 <Sgeo> If that's any help
20:39:55 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]).
20:43:48 <fizzie> There's the IP, though; a hotel in Dublin.
20:44:35 <quintopia> that sounds hard to fake, but useless for identification
20:50:01 <quintopia> check this out: https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=1xMe6RAsshEhAfbyrJQggLZV6-buMvZFYCj-v9N-uGE6nphQm_Iw2rw5IulhV&hl=en&authkey=CO78idQG
20:52:53 <fizzie> Aw, the name *was* in use, then! (Re the "Grasp" draft at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Fizzie I sketched.)
20:55:49 <Phantom_Cuber> Why are there so few languages that look nice when printed?
20:56:41 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Because.
20:58:05 <Phantom_Cuber> Wait, someone announced that Duke Nukem Forever was going to be released?
20:59:35 <Phantom_Cuber> <ais523> So, I got that Feather spec and implementation finished.
21:00:50 <Phantom_Cuber> Stallman: "Hey guys! The HURD is finished! Now stop using that silly Linux thing."
21:01:12 -!- comex has changed nick to TheLastPOPE.
21:01:15 <quintopia> fizzie: the major flaw with the spec i linked that i commented on to the authors when i first read it last year was that it didn't have the property you specify in your sketch
21:01:33 <quintopia> fizzie: in particular, i would love to see a merging of your idea and the ideas in the above spec
21:02:06 -!- TheLastPOPE has changed nick to comex.
21:02:26 <alise> <Phantom_Cuber> Wait, someone announced that Duke Nukem Forever was going to be released? ;; it is
21:02:35 <alise> comex: The past elope.
21:03:01 <Phantom_Cuber> Duke Nukem Forever's nonexistence has been a constant for as long as I have particularly cared!
21:03:31 <quintopia> fizzie: also, your methods for implementing your "main idea" bear a striking resemblance to the methods the authors of Illumination Software Creator use.
21:04:46 <Phantom_Cuber> I still want to do that "FSM in a planar graph with one storage module" idea...
21:05:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
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21:06:15 <Phantom_Cuber> Wherein some form of network transmission protocol would have to be implemented.
21:10:57 <alise> <quintopia> fizzie: also, your methods for implementing your "main idea" bear a striking resemblance to the methods the authors of Illumination Software Creator use.
21:11:00 <alise> that is NOT a good thing :D
21:16:06 * Phantom_Cuber wonders how one would perform subgraph matching in Prolog.
21:16:22 <quintopia> alise: just pointing out how hard it is to be original when creating languages
21:16:43 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: wut
21:16:52 <quintopia> they are different enough in this case that a small modification would give them a lot of merit
21:17:48 <alise> what's a subgraph in this context?
21:22:36 <pikhq> alise: BTW, flac -f --best
21:22:45 <alise> pikhq: I did that.
21:22:48 <pikhq> alise: That decodes and reëncodes, preserving metadata
21:22:51 <alise> pikhq: It ended up *bigger* somehow
21:22:57 <alise> Actually I piped decode to encode
21:23:00 <alise> But somehow the output was actually bigger
21:23:03 <alise> So they must have done something crazy
21:27:23 <alise> pikhq: So, how much would you rage if the only copy you could find of something was an MP3?
21:27:27 <alise> All over the internet.
21:27:48 <pikhq> alise: I currently have a lot of rage because of that.
21:27:51 <alise> pikhq: Also, how about it has the same title as an album by the same band, so you can't search easily?
21:27:54 <alise> ARE YOU FEELING THE FUCKING PAIN
21:28:03 <alise> And how about a new copy of a CD it's on is over seventy fucking pounds?
21:28:08 <alise> (Used for less, but STILL.)
21:29:38 <alise> pikhq: ARE YOU FEELING THE LOVE
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21:31:16 <quintopia> i think you have been here before but not since i have been here
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21:35:08 <Sgeo> Phantom_Cuber, hmm?
21:35:36 <Phantom_Cuber> Sgeo, you just *try* finding a UK channel that shows it.
21:36:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Cuber: I suggest torrenting it.
21:36:13 * Sgeo tends to look for websites :/
21:36:22 <quintopia> Phantom_Cuber: has a TC machine with planar FSM and single infinite storage module not already been done somewhere?
21:36:45 <pikhq> That's the solution to most TV, in fact.
21:36:54 <quintopia> i seem to recall the strong wire-crossing hypothesis being pretty much busted (rule 110 a counterexample?)
21:36:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Cuber: Very yes.
21:37:08 <quintopia> so i feel like it must have been done by now
21:37:12 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: If you don't download the largest filesize option in all cases I will murder you.
21:37:18 <alise> quintopia: it's not totally killed yet
21:37:41 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: KWALITEE
21:37:51 <pikhq> Hmm. Invader Zim ISO dumps. Highly tempting.
21:38:28 <pikhq> (I'm picky about my encodes, mmkay?)
21:38:41 <Sgeo> Fullscreen Flash outside of YouTube is failing HARD
21:39:27 <Sgeo> I get to hear the audio of an episode without any video!
21:39:29 <alise> [[What we're avoiding
21:39:29 <alise> sprintf() breaking in PHP]] --definition of Perl Kwalitee
21:39:32 <alise> what the hell does that mean?
21:39:35 <Phantom_Cuber> pikhq, incidentally, is there a nice way to schedule the torrent?
21:39:55 <Phantom_Cuber> I'd like to watch them in the appropriate order, rather than getting all of the episodes after a long time.
21:42:43 * pikhq fetches some freaking DVD dumps of Invader Zim just to encode them properly
21:43:27 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Not really.
21:43:39 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: BitTorrent is inherently you-get-random-data, basically.
21:43:44 <alise> You CAN do it, manually, but it won't work well.
21:43:47 <alise> And other clients will hate you.
21:43:51 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Just download season 1 first...
21:43:55 <alise> It won't take that long.
21:44:08 <Phantom_Cuber> Is there a way of telling it "prioritise the earlier episodes if you see a bit of data"?
21:44:15 <Sgeo> Phantom_Cuber never saw Futurama?
21:44:21 <Sgeo> Also, there are websites >.>
21:44:44 <Phantom_Cuber> Sgeo, I understand this, but it was just never relevant.
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21:46:03 * pikhq also deletes some shitty movies that won't ever get watched again
21:46:37 <pikhq> Oh, and inexplicable 4:3 cropped rips of movies.
21:46:46 <pikhq> Rather gouge out my eyes than watch those.
21:48:02 * Phantom_Cuber notes that all of the major British channels have some sort of online catchup service.
21:50:36 <alise> <Phantom_Cuber> Is there a way of telling it "prioritise the earlier episodes if you see a bit of data"? ;; this makes no sense
21:54:28 -!- Harpyon has joined.
21:58:45 <Phantom_Cuber> So wait, how would you do the subgraph matching in Prolog?
22:05:47 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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22:17:11 <Gregor> Somebody needs to make an MMO in the style of adventure games like King's Quest.'
22:24:40 <impomatic> I can't get TclRobots running on ActivestateTcl for Windows :-(
22:27:53 <Gregor> Then what you really need is somebody who uses both Tcl and Windows, innit? :P
22:28:53 <pikhq> Windows is pain and agony.
22:30:11 <impomatic> I'll try it on Linux when I get chance
22:32:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:32:14 * pikhq vomits at the quality of one of the series on his hard drive
22:32:31 -!- augur has joined.
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22:33:15 <pikhq> 720p, encoded at a lower bitrate than I do for DVD rips.
22:33:30 <pikhq> I get that h264 is good, but it's not *that* good.
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22:59:15 <zzo38> If you have large capacity disk to store a video, you can store uncompressed video by converting a NTSC or PAL signal to a digital file.
23:00:51 -!- augur has changed nick to augur[reading.
23:00:54 -!- augur[reading has changed nick to augur[reading].
23:04:59 <pikhq> zzo38: That's pretty ridiculous, though.
23:05:29 <pikhq> Especially when you consider that with video, there's generally already been tons of generation loss.
23:13:05 <zzo38> How many mathematical symbols do you need to write whatever article you are writing? Computer Modern contains many, we probably don't need a lot of other ones, but some of the symbols in WEBMATH are I design that might be used in mathematics, such as blackboard bold, therefore sign, alternate empty set,
23:13:42 <zzo38> which others are common enough to include? Probably many can just be composed from overlapping and arranging other characters in Computer Modern and WEBMATH combined, using various commands in TeX.
23:15:25 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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23:22:08 <fungot> Phantom_Cuber: i thought you'd be better at playing a gay vampire. and i do believe it's time for my medicine!
23:23:12 <olsner> fungot, whence the need for medicine?
23:23:12 <fungot> olsner: that's right. no. no fucking way.
23:23:58 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa* speeches ss wp youtube
23:24:47 <alise> Phantom_Cuber: Why aren't you better at playing a gay vampire?
23:26:36 <alise> "Helloth for everyone! How are you all, my thweet guestth? [pops out fangs] Ah, that's better."
23:26:45 <alise> IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE GAY PEOPLE LISP
23:28:08 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:31:29 <Phantom_Cuber> ais523, in response to the recent announcement of the immanent completion of Duke Nukem Forever, do you plan to complete the spec for Feather?
23:31:44 <ais523> Phantom_Cuber: not today, I'm busy in RL
23:33:40 <alise> pikhq: Are you anal enough to purchase releases unavailable online in FLAC solely to correct this injustice?
23:33:49 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:34:14 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:35:45 <oerjan> assuming it was really imm_a_nent, i wouldn't put _too_ much importance on it ;D
23:36:07 <oerjan> 'of a mental act performed entirely within the mind; "a cognition is an immanent act of mind"'
23:36:19 <pikhq> alise: No, but only due to lack of expendable funds.
23:36:49 <alise> pikhq: But you can get a used CD for like ... like £3-£5!
23:36:57 -!- FireFly has quit (Client Quit).
23:37:18 <alise> pikhq: Actually £8.99 BUT WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE
23:37:45 <alise> What I'm saying is: Public duty.
23:38:51 -!- augur[reading] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:40:01 <pikhq> alise: Except when what you're missing is obscure.
23:40:43 <alise> pikhq: No, there is an actual item for £8.99 in this case.
23:41:25 <alise> pikhq: Therefore FIX THE UNIVERSE
23:41:42 <oerjan> yeah _someone_ better fix it
23:41:59 <alise> pikhq: DO YOU AGREE
23:42:11 * pikhq hates US jury selection
23:42:19 <alise> pikhq: You cannot avoid your destiny
23:43:10 <oerjan> he _could_ say he is fundamentally against the concept of punishment, the prosecutors would probably through him out :D
23:43:38 <pikhq> oerjan: No, I'm not actually selected for jury duty, I'm just hating how we go about choosing jurors.
23:44:18 -!- Phantom_Cuber has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:44:22 <pikhq> Notable properties include that for any capital cases, jurors opposed to a death sentence are summarily removed from the jury pool.
23:44:27 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:44:41 <oerjan> ...that was sort of what i was alluding to
23:45:04 <pikhq> Keep in mind that we have a civil law system, wherein the jurors opinions *can in fact set law*.
23:45:30 <ais523> IIRC, you can refuse to accept the notion that the judge sets what information is and isn't admissable for the jury to hear
23:45:36 <ais523> as in, they ask you whether you accept that notion or not
23:45:45 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what happens if you say no
23:45:59 <pikhq> Also, being aware of jury nullification gets you thrown out.
23:46:43 <ais523> in the UK, jury selection's a lot more determined; they take the first 12 people selected at random, unless there's a really strong reason why they shouldn't judge that trial
23:46:50 <ais523> such as being related to one of the witnesses or defendants
23:46:54 <pikhq> ais523: See, that would be sane.
23:47:01 <ais523> or a member of a particular ancient order of lighthouse-keepers
23:47:27 <pikhq> But here, if you are aware that you can rule against the law & evidence because you find it unjust to do so, *you cannot be in a jury*.
23:47:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:49:03 <pikhq> If you personally try to inform a jury of this ability in court, *they have to select a new jury*.
23:49:07 <pikhq> It is so very fucked up.
23:49:31 <ais523> I've been following the SCO v Novell transcripts, one of them was of the jury selection
23:50:01 <pikhq> Makes a farce of the whole court system if you ask me.
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23:51:59 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
23:52:01 <alise> <alise> pikhq: You cannot avoid your destiny ;; I mean the music
23:52:21 <pikhq> "n 2001, a California Supreme Court ruling on a case involving statutory rape led to a new jury instruction that requires jurors to inform the judge whenever a fellow panelist appears to be deciding a case based on his or her dislike of a law."
23:53:01 <pikhq> What the hell is the *point* of a jury if they cannot have an opinion on the law?
23:54:02 <ais523> pikhq: the law is written by lobbyists; a majority of 12 random people tend to not be lobbyists
23:54:08 <alise> pikhq: the US is a country based on ignoring its founding principles
23:54:15 <ais523> thus they are not competent to decide what the law is
23:54:56 <cheater99> USA is a country based on COGNITIVE DISSONANCE
23:55:05 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, fuck the lobbyists with a chainsaw.
23:55:43 <Ilari> Satutory rape... That would be real good source of cases where "not guilty" verdict would be right thing to do.
23:57:52 <pikhq> cheater99: You realise *statutory* rape is consensual sex, right?
23:57:59 <Ilari> That wouldn't change what was the right thing to do.
23:58:46 <pikhq> s/children/17 year and 364 day olds/ :P
23:59:05 <ais523> in the UK, they go to real lengths to protect the jurors
23:59:06 <Ilari> Might also get some talking to, but that's not matter of law.
23:59:14 <ais523> it's illegal to record their faces, for instance
23:59:51 <ais523> photography's banned in courtrooms; it is legal to make a /painting/ of a court in session, but the artist needs to arrange things such that the jurors' faces can't be seen, normally by conveniently putting a handrail or something in the way
23:59:58 <pikhq> ais523: So... You guys actually have juries as a matter of fact, rather than as a body to delegate the judge's opinion onto.
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19:59:49 <alise> clog: KEEP CLOGGIN' DEM TUBES
19:59:55 <alise> 10.10.0303-Oct-2010 00:00 0
19:59:58 <alise> The day that did not exist.
19:59:59 -!- baschtl has joined.
20:00:16 <alise> good timing, our channel logger just cam eback
20:01:11 <alise> it watches. everything. and puts it on the web.
20:01:21 <alise> like CCTV, except fluffier
20:01:59 <yorick> the timeline must be preserved!
20:02:38 <yorick> alise: go send in your put-together logs
20:02:39 -!- baschtl has left (?).
20:02:54 <alise> yorick: that is unlikely to have any effect. clog runs entirely without administration.
20:03:11 <alise> probably some other channel's denizens yelled in #tunes until it came back. or my email to Faré was actually received
20:03:17 <alise> clog runs completely unadministrated, but tunes.org doesn't
20:03:29 <alise> so someone just restarted it i guess
20:03:30 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
20:04:04 -!- FireFly has joined.
20:04:12 <alise> yorick: what, clog?
20:04:28 <alise> no way -- logreading is our national pastime
20:04:35 <alise> you shouldn't say anything really stupid on irc anyway
20:04:45 <alise> although even if you claim to have murdered someone, nobody's likely to believe you anyway
20:04:54 <alise> yorick: because even if logs aren't public, people log.
20:05:04 <yorick> but what if I claim I warezed stuff
20:05:17 <yorick> I don't care about other people
20:05:21 <yorick> I do care about google
20:05:22 <fizzie> "If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact. Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging, --" I don't think we really do that latter part, and I'm not sure how that should be done. On the other hand, we're not exactly model freenode citizens anyway, what with the single-# thing and all.
20:05:24 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:05:28 -!- augur_ has joined.
20:05:56 <yorick> what's with the single-# thing?
20:05:57 <alise> fizzie: I don't think any channel does that.
20:06:06 <alise> yorick: you're meant to have two #s if you don't own the thing your channel is named after
20:06:16 <alise> for instance, the C committee could register #c, but not a random group of C users
20:06:20 <yorick> omg you stupid people :P
20:06:30 <alise> yorick: this channel predates that policy by *many* years
20:06:31 <yorick> you can't own "esoteric"
20:06:34 <alise> i believe it even predates the name freenode
20:06:38 <alise> that's what i was gonna say -- nobody owns esotericity anyway
20:06:43 <alise> so it's not really a big deal at al
20:07:05 <yorick> but how can I make comments without logging
20:07:06 <fizzie> Yes, but even if it's a non-ownable thing, it should go to the ## namespace according to them guidelines. Not that anyone cares.
20:07:22 <fizzie> yorick: You should make them somewhere else, then, I gather.
20:08:12 <alise> yorick: /msg someone and hope they don't say it in-channel
20:08:35 <Vorpal> yorick, how does ##c implement it?
20:08:45 <Vorpal> or was that just the ## thing?
20:08:57 <alise> <Vorpal> or was that just the ## thing
20:09:09 <alise> (plenty of languages answer questions by restating it without questioning)
20:09:14 <alise> (my laziness knows no bounds)
20:09:24 <alise> (typing "yes" is a chore)
20:09:30 <fizzie> I am tempted to say "if you prefix your messages with your nickserv password, it's not shown to us but clog will ignore them".
20:09:44 <fizzie> But maybe that wouldn't be entirely believable.
20:10:35 <ais523> I think Graue could make a case for owning the channel
20:10:38 <ais523> but I don't think he's interested
20:10:40 <alise> "it's not shown to us but clog will ignore them"
20:10:44 <alise> we predate the wiki
20:10:52 <ais523> alise: agreed, but the wiki's the website with that name
20:10:52 <alise> also, it isn't about who owns the channel
20:10:53 <Vorpal> alise, that made sense, just not obviously
20:10:57 <alise> it's about who owns the concept itself
20:10:59 <yorick> alise: latin doesn't even have a word for "yes"
20:11:11 <alise> >nickserv< ghost quintopia bindun
20:11:12 <alise> -NickServ- quintopia is not a registered nickname.
20:11:13 <yorick> quintopia: do you happen to have an hilight on "alice"
20:11:14 <Vorpal> alise, he meant "(the password) is not shown to us, but clog will ignore (the lines)"
20:11:16 <ais523> yorick: not a single word
20:11:21 <alise> yorick: if it would, it wouldn't be effective
20:11:35 <yorick> alise: not a single word
20:11:36 <alise> Vorpal: that's not really a valid way of saying that :P
20:11:36 <ais523> "in this way I confirm it" is the literal translation of the most common idiom to mean "yes" in Latin
20:11:39 <alise> yorick: <yorick> quintopia: do you happen to have an hilight on "alice"
20:11:40 <Vorpal> alise, yes it wasn't very obvious :P
20:11:41 <alise> my name is not alice
20:11:47 <Vorpal> alise, but it is the only way it made half-way sense
20:11:57 <alise> nobody's name is alice! NOBODY'S
20:12:09 <yorick> quintopia: do you happen to have an hilight on "alise"?
20:12:13 <alise> ais523: do you have a highlight on "ais523", yorick?
20:12:14 <ais523> yorick: I was trying to make a joke, not accusing you
20:12:21 <ais523> I have higlights on quite a few obscure things
20:12:27 <ais523> but none of them are the nicks of other people in the channel
20:12:31 <alise> oklopol: what the heck does "ment" mean?
20:12:42 <yorick> ais523: but you happen to have a name that has the same color as alises
20:12:47 <Vorpal> alise, lets wait for what fizzie has to answer himself
20:12:59 <ais523> yorick: that's nicely self-referential, mispinging in a misping apology effectively atones for itself
20:13:08 <quintopia> yorick: no, alise and Vorpal have the same color. they are green, and ais523 is orange
20:13:16 <ais523> actually, I'm black and alise is grey
20:13:18 <alise> ais523: "I resign as IADoP and Registar and go on hold." --Wooble, after comex transfers a prop from Wooble to comex after Keba posted an apologetic resignation and on-holding after Wooble tried to NoV em for not publishing a report
20:13:21 <ais523> whereas vorpal is cyan
20:13:29 <yorick> quintopia: vorpal is definately green...alise is orange too
20:13:33 <alise> ais523: do we actually have *conclusive* evidence that he's over 12?
20:13:38 <ais523> alise: to be fair, it doesn't take much to cause Wooble to ragequit
20:13:42 <ais523> I think it's just his playstyle
20:13:43 <alise> i'm orange and grey!
20:13:48 <alise> ais523: whinestyle :P
20:13:50 <ais523> I'm kind-of surprised he didn't deregister
20:13:51 <quintopia> yorick: the only way to know what's it like to see via echolocation is to be a bat.
20:14:01 <alise> ais523: we need some sort of minimum on-hold time
20:14:07 <alise> it'd help prevent some sorts of scams too, I bet
20:14:08 <fizzie> The "it == password, them == lines" interpretation is correct, but I concur that it wasn't a very proper way.
20:14:22 <alise> wow, this channel's activity has exploded in the past minute or so
20:14:23 <ais523> quintopia: I disagree; there are echolocation devices available that convert the data into a sense you do have
20:14:25 <Vorpal> everyone is blue here. Apart from me, who is grey
20:14:27 <ais523> and people can learn to use them
20:14:32 <Vorpal> I just find nick colours confusing
20:14:39 <Vorpal> because of the colour conflicts
20:14:40 <alise> because we said a few lines at once and the replies have forked way too many subprocesses...
20:14:40 <ais523> alise: you can't win for a week after becoming active
20:14:45 <Vorpal> which do happen quite often
20:14:51 <ais523> alise: wow, forkbombing an IRC channel
20:14:54 <ais523> that's pretty impressive
20:14:58 <quintopia> ais523: there's a difference between what we perceive hearing a sondol and what a bat perceives getting an echo back
20:15:14 <ais523> quintopia: not massively, it's the same data in a different encoding
20:15:15 <quintopia> this is a thought experiment much older than me
20:15:25 <ais523> and encoding doesn't seem to be massively important in determining data fed to the brain
20:15:26 <alise> Astronaut missionaries!
20:15:38 <alise> how the hell did we get on to echolocation
20:15:39 <quintopia> it's not the data that matters. it's the way we perceive it
20:15:42 <fizzie> ais523: You're sort of pukey-greenish-yellow, to be completely honest.
20:15:45 <ais523> (e.g. if you give someone glasses which turn everything they see upside-down, after a while they'll see normally again
20:15:51 <yorick> alise: synesthesia and quintopia
20:15:57 <quintopia> just as i perceive alise and Vorpal to be the same color, and yorick and fizzie to be the same color, while you don't
20:16:00 <Vorpal> <alise> wow, this channel's activity has exploded in the past minute or so <-- correct, I can't keep up
20:16:14 <alise> "pukey-greenish-yellow" "dark yellow?"
20:16:20 <ais523> dark yellow is a specific color
20:16:20 <alise> "that is also an acceptable name!"
20:16:25 <Vorpal> alise, get fizzie to write something to publish a life-feed of diagrams with short time tendencies
20:16:30 <yorick> quintopia: I'm red...fizzie is light yellow, vorpal is green and alise is orange
20:16:31 <Vorpal> say, updated every minute or so
20:16:32 <ais523> not quite #808000, but relatively close
20:16:36 <yorick> and ais523 is also orange.
20:16:44 <ais523> yorick: take that back!
20:16:50 <yorick> ais523: stop being orange!
20:17:00 <ais523> seriously, that's about the worst insult you can aim at anyone
20:17:14 <ais523> it's a desire for the worst possible thing theoretically possible to happen to them
20:17:19 <yorick> ais523: hmm...possibly... :/
20:17:28 <yorick> ais523: let me rephrase
20:17:47 <Vorpal> <ais523> seriously, that's about the worst insult you can aim at anyone <-- what is?
20:17:50 <yorick> ais523: damn the inconvenience caused by me percieving your nick and "alise" both as orange
20:18:18 <yorick> yay I killed the activity!
20:19:20 <Vorpal> ais523, I perceive sex-related swearing as far worse than religion-related swearing in Swedish, but the opposite in English.
20:19:20 <yorick> quintopia: but alise is also orange
20:19:28 <Vorpal> ais523, just as a random data point
20:19:41 <ais523> Vorpal: sex-related is generally worse in English too, but only for certain words
20:19:44 <ais523> but I don't really understand that
20:19:56 <ais523> randomly yelling "fuck" or whatever just makes no sense out of context, I can live with that
20:20:02 <yorick> we dutch people have disease-related swearing
20:20:06 <ais523> insults which have a meaning can be somewhat worse
20:20:18 <Vorpal> ais523, "fuck you" seems a lot less worse than "damn you" in English, waaay the opposite in Swedish
20:20:33 <alise> ais523: just out of curiosity, has anyone ever damned you and then not retracted it?
20:20:37 <ais523> Vorpal: it's actually the opposite in English too, for most people, but I don't understand it
20:20:56 <ais523> alise: not that I can remember, most people are relatively considerate when they actually stop to think about what their words mean
20:21:06 <Vorpal> ais523, well it is a bit strange that "fuck you" would be less bad than "damn you" indeed.
20:21:22 <alise> ais523: I don't say it because I know you don't like it, but personally I have an understanding of the extreme non-literality of swear words...
20:21:36 <ais523> what use is a word, if it has no meaning?
20:21:41 <quintopia> and goddam you is no worse than damn you
20:22:15 <Vorpal> alise, same. But I do get a bit annoyed when people uses genital parts as swearing.
20:22:23 <quintopia> on the other hand, calling someone Satan is definitely stronger than calling them a dick
20:22:28 <alise> coppro: how am I doing for mathNEWS? >_>
20:22:33 <alise> Vorpal: Well, that just makes you a dick.
20:22:59 <ais523> Vorpal: in English, which euphemism you use determines how strong the insult is
20:23:04 <Vorpal> that has really moved from the original meaning
20:23:07 <ais523> calling someone a vagina is just confusing, for instance
20:23:10 <Vorpal> and "dick" is also a name
20:23:16 <ais523> various euphemisms have various levels of insultingness
20:23:21 <alise> Vorpal: Stop dicking about.
20:23:26 <quintopia> dick, if spotted, is also a food stuff
20:23:33 <ais523> and it isn't really a name nowadays, no sane parent gives it to their children as they'd never get through school without emotional scarring
20:23:43 <Vorpal> alise, that is a bit more annoying
20:23:48 <quintopia> yet they continue to name their kids richard
20:23:52 <alise> ais523: nobody gets through school without emotional scarring.
20:24:04 <ais523> alise: yes, but parents try to avoid obvious sources, most of the time
20:24:27 <quintopia> but there was that one kid in my middle school named Mike Rapp
20:24:49 <alise> what a load of ke Rapp
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20:25:56 <Vorpal> quintopia, family name is harder to "work around"
20:26:11 <quintopia> Vorpal: don't name your kid michael. easy.
20:27:07 <Vorpal> quintopia, I wouldn't use an English name anyway
20:27:20 <alise> do you think that might be because
20:27:29 <ais523> there's probably /someone/ in England named Arvid...
20:27:38 <Vorpal> alise, the thought never occurred to me
20:27:44 <Vorpal> alise, you MIGHT HAVE A POINT!
20:27:52 <Vorpal> alise, this is breaking news.
20:27:59 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:28:21 <ais523> presumably Phantom_Hoover_
20:28:27 <ais523> also, I just tried to tab-complete "presumably"
20:28:36 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, but here in AMERICA you can use ANY NAME
20:28:44 <quintopia> every time a word is more than five letters long, i try to tab it
20:28:47 <Vorpal> ais523, hm irc is taking over your brain
20:28:49 <yorick> who lives in america anyways
20:28:57 <yorick> impomatic: slightly delayed by the need to explain PH
20:29:15 <pikhq> alise: I don't think there's even a legal requirement that it be in any known script.
20:29:29 <alise> pikhq: KLINGON NAME
20:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover_> <Vorpal> ais523, probably ← I never could remember his first name...
20:29:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, how is that hard?
20:29:42 <ais523> I don't think I even know your first name
20:29:45 <ais523> I know alise's, and mine
20:29:50 <yorick> I would pronounce Kathq'lynn as kathy-klinn
20:30:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I mean, if it was "Sven-Åke" or some such it might be harder
20:30:02 <alise> ais523's first name is Aleæir'hiãé
20:30:09 <Vorpal> hm that one is still easy
20:30:11 <yorick> I bet no one knows mine
20:30:22 <ais523> yorick: I bet /someone/ knows your name
20:30:25 <ais523> your parents, for instance
20:30:32 <yorick> ais523: no one in this channel
20:30:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, irssi betrayed me once and stuck my name in a whois, but NO MORE.
20:30:37 <Vorpal> so lets see how this worked up
20:30:37 <ais523> yorick: you're in this channel
20:30:46 <Vorpal> updated gnome while gnome was still running
20:30:54 <yorick> Vorpal: I'd restart it
20:31:14 <pikhq> Yup, Love Symbol #2 was Prince's *actual legal name* for a while.
20:31:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> <alise> Pronounced "alex" ← I have at various times thought it to be Alan and Adam.
20:31:42 <Vorpal> yorick, I upgraded between old X and modular X.Org from inside an xterm
20:31:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: It's actually Alan-Aladdin-Adam.
20:31:56 <Vorpal> took some time, due to running gentoo back then
20:32:14 <yorick> hmm alise is pronounced alan?
20:32:20 <alise> "What's your name?" "ALADDAM"
20:32:30 <yorick> aladdam sounds like saddam
20:32:32 <Vorpal> yorick, no it is pronounced "Elliott"
20:32:37 <impomatic> Hmmm... I'm going to see if I can get TclRobots running on Linus
20:32:41 <pikhq> Huh. In the US, if you have *assumed* a name, then it can be considered as your legal name.
20:32:55 <cpressey> static const unsigned short p9[5] =
20:33:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, you can change name over here, iirc limited number of times
20:33:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is legal name
20:33:20 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover_: it's an him? :P
20:33:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> cpressey, please... please tell me that's not what I think it is.
20:33:30 <Vorpal> family name follows different rules
20:33:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: I can tell you that, sure!
20:33:40 <cpressey> I can tell you a lot of things!
20:33:41 <quintopia> I just had a new language idea. It's called "Graue Sucks." Whaddyathink?
20:33:53 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: The sky is filled with plants.
20:33:58 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover_: it's an he?
20:34:16 <ais523> ooh, that's given /me/ an esolang idea
20:34:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, what do you think it is?
20:34:18 <alise> Least grammatically correct sentence ever.
20:34:22 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: Problem: I don't know what you think it is.
20:34:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: We use common law to handle it. If you consider it your name, it is your name.
20:34:32 <ais523> you get a set of people to start writing an interp
20:34:45 <ais523> they aren't aiming anywhere to start with atm, just writing code that looks generically interpy
20:34:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, presumably you need to register that or something?
20:34:58 <ais523> once it becomes TC, you take whatever you ended up with as the lang in question
20:35:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: Only if you want to make the paperwork less of a pain.
20:35:00 <yorick> alise: I'll just call you "alice"
20:35:18 <quintopia> to me it looks an awful lot like the powers of nine. . .which are very useful for, uh, being cool?
20:35:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: Otherwise, everywhere you need to use your legal name, you'll have to sign something stating that you are the same person as your previous name referred to.
20:36:34 <alise> apparently -1 factorial = 1
20:36:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is quite a logical system actually. Better than I expected from US
20:36:42 <alise> yorick: for the last time, my nick is not alice
20:36:54 <alise> Vorpal: no, -1 factorial != 1, you see.
20:37:01 <yorick> alise: I know, but you're saying "maybe"
20:37:07 <ais523> wait, i thought that was /my/ nick
20:37:10 <alise> yorick: i also said a variety of other things
20:37:11 <ais523> memory fades quickly...
20:37:17 <Vorpal> alise, different sources?
20:37:20 <yorick> alise: you also said "nope"
20:37:25 <alise> yorick: i also said p=.5
20:37:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's common law -- most of it is just application of common sense.
20:37:40 <yorick> alise: which is while I'll call you "alice"
20:37:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, what exactly does "common law" mean?
20:38:02 <ais523> Vorpal: it's a system of laws that's established without a written law
20:38:11 <ais523> basically, if everyone believes something's illegal, it is
20:38:19 <ais523> then, it gets refined via court precedent
20:38:30 <ais523> for ages in the UK, murder wasn't explicitly illegal, it was just a common-law crime
20:38:32 <Vorpal> ais523, Sweden doesn't have that system
20:38:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's a distinctly British system.
20:39:00 <ais523> proto: no written laws at all, everything is based on whether a jury finds you guilty or not
20:39:07 <ais523> (note: this may not be a good legal system to live in)
20:39:33 <cpressey> quintopia: I suppose it is the first five nonnegative powers of nine. It's part of the original Malbolge interpreter.
20:39:38 <pikhq> All but one state of the US uses common law, because our legal systems are largely inspired by England's.
20:39:41 <Vorpal> ais523, it is in fact extremely nasty
20:39:51 <pikhq> (Louisiana has civil law, due to being a former French colony)
20:40:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, civil law being the "usual" system elsewhere I presume?
20:40:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: In all current common law jurisdictions, the legal system is a combination of written laws and court precedents.
20:40:48 <alise> common law is wfun
20:40:53 <pikhq> The court precedents can override the written law.
20:41:08 <alise> i think i like it, except i don't trust judges much :D
20:41:14 <pikhq> (most typically when there's conflict between two laws)
20:41:38 <quintopia> cpressey: and why did you copy it here again?
20:42:28 <cpressey> quintopia: IT WAS EXTREMELY RELEVANT
20:43:11 <alise> cpressey: oh lawdee :P
20:43:14 <Vorpal> cpressey, which is worst: powershell or malbolge?
20:43:25 <pikhq> I'd say that common law manages to work as well as it *does* simply because it always operates with an appeal system.
20:44:15 <pikhq> (I mean, even waaaaaaaaay back in the history of it all, you could always appeal your decision all the way up to the King)
20:44:36 <cpressey> Vorpal: PowerShell is far more disappointing. But at least I can get 130(?) columns now, instead of 80, and instead of using Pidgin.
20:44:45 <alise> powershell is alright
20:44:53 <alise> it's more interesting than bash although maybe less useful :)
20:45:17 <cpressey> Probably someone has written an IRC cmdlet for this. If I were truly into Windows-slumming, I'd go look...
20:45:52 <Vorpal> you_can_get_more_than_80_in_cmd.exe.....___space_seems_broken_atm...
20:46:35 <alise> see, powershell doesn't do that :D
20:46:56 <Vorpal> just the metal bar ended up stuck
20:46:57 <alise> pikhq: it would be interesting if someone formulated a governmental system based entirely on an "idealised" version of courts and appeals
20:47:00 <alise> perhaps infinite appeals
20:47:21 <Vorpal> alise, infinite appeals: whoever live longest wins
20:47:39 <Vorpal> even trickier for companies, they could last for much longer
20:48:26 <pikhq> alise: Could be interesting.
20:50:42 <cpressey> Vorpal: I suppose you can, but I've never gone ahead and figured out a good way to do it with cygwin.
20:51:07 <alise> cpressey: right click title bar --> properties
20:51:10 <alise> might not work with cygwin i guess
20:51:16 <alise> probably what you meant
20:52:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm, right click menu bar and select settings or some such iirc
20:52:12 <ais523> what's a command that works like "dig", but more likely to be installed?
20:52:18 <cpressey> alise: it... yeah, cygwin is some kind of crapola hybrid. it doesn't work.
20:52:19 <Vorpal> cpressey, you might need to update COLS or COLUMNS in bash if it doesn't detect the change
20:52:27 <alise> ais523: i don't know of one
20:52:41 <Vorpal> ais523, not as feature-filled of course
20:52:45 <alise> host is part of bind
20:52:49 <alise> but then so is dig
20:52:51 <Vorpal> alise, nslookup is more likely than host iirc
20:52:58 <Vorpal> nslookup is glibc or some such
20:53:11 <alise> bind is probably more common than glibc.
20:53:20 <alise> nah you're probably right if it is glibc
20:53:24 <alise> but why would an executable be glibc???
20:53:28 <Vorpal> alise, nslookup seems to be bind on this computer
20:53:37 <alise> well that's not surprising :P
20:53:39 <Vorpal> yet... I'm sure I seen it as libc elsewhere
20:53:47 <alise> nslookup is probably the best bet, ais523
20:54:08 <Vorpal> ais523, dig does a lot more of course
20:54:41 <Vorpal> example.org.61129INNSb.iana-servers.net.
20:54:41 <Vorpal> example.org.61129INNSa.iana-servers.net.
20:54:48 <Vorpal> those are some nice name-servers
20:55:51 <ais523> I was trying to troubleshoot someone's internet connection over the phone
20:56:20 <ais523> but helpfully, pings gave a "destination host unreachable" rather than just being swallowed
20:56:39 <ais523> the IPs were being configured and they could ping the router, but not further
20:56:52 <ais523> so I'm guessing they wrote their MAC address incorrectly on the form that limits what could legally be plugged in
20:56:57 <alise> ais523: if Wooble ragequits in a public forum and the mailing lists are out, what sound does it make?
20:57:08 <alise> wow, i mutated that beyong recognition
20:57:16 * alise gains enlightenment
20:57:31 <alise> proposed project: rewrite all zen koans to end with a literal answer
20:58:02 <alise> ais523: their router could be down...
20:58:05 <alise> as in the connection to the 'net
20:58:21 <ais523> seems unlikely, given that they're trying to set up a new connection for the first time
20:58:29 <ais523> that would be quite a coincidence if the connection was down that day
20:58:31 <alise> it happens to me all the time
20:58:35 <alise> ais523: not *that* great a coincidence
20:58:36 <ais523> also, the router's owned by someone else
20:58:41 <alise> also, it could have simply not been wired up yet
20:58:46 <ais523> and filters based on Mac address
20:58:50 <ais523> we're talking new student, here
20:59:02 <alise> that's unlikely, then :)
21:01:19 <Deewiant> http://awibiswritteninbrainfuck.blogspot.com/2010/10/tickling-itch-announcing-awib-03.html
21:02:16 <alise> http://code.google.com/u/matslina/ ;; the awib dev knows of esotope :)
21:04:57 <alise> now why is that road legal :D
21:05:05 <alise> not with the jet on :P
21:07:39 <alise> "A DMV insider has disclosed to me that the DMV has made a formal request to a federal agency to rule if my Beetle constitutes a threat to national security based on what could happen if it got into the wrong hands."
21:08:10 <quintopia> some really awesome shit could happen
21:08:22 <quintopia> he needs to build some retractable wings for it now
21:09:10 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
21:10:30 <alise> "Here's my wife's Honda Metropolitan scooter. She wants it to go faster than 40 mph. So I have these two little JFS 100 jet engines and I am thinking how to put them on the scooter."
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21:22:50 <webquint> things go from really fast to really quiet in a blink
21:24:42 <alise> quick, say multiple things at once
21:30:31 <webquint> i i really have don't tried know this what before to and say it beyond doesn't the make first sense thing.
21:33:33 <alise> when the things that if it
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21:44:10 <impomatic> I still can't get TclRobots working, even on a Linux machine :-(
21:44:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> pikhq doesn't really have an optimising x86 Brainfuck compiler!
21:45:31 <alise> impomatic: More magic.
21:45:57 <olsner> Luftputefartøyet mitt er fullt av ål
21:46:37 <impomatic> "Couldn't find or send to a new wish, bailing out! Is your X server configured for xauth style security? TclRobots uses the Tk 'send' command, which requires that xhost security not be used. Use xauth if possible. Alternatively, re-compile the wish executable /user/bin/wish8.4 with the -DTK_NO_SECURITY flag.'
21:48:08 <Vorpal> olsner, vad är "Luftputefartøyet"?
21:48:40 <Vorpal> olsner, "svävare" på norska?
21:49:08 <Vorpal> heck where does the "my hoovercraft is full of eel" phrase come from?
21:49:23 <Vorpal> olsner, firefox: segmentation fault
21:51:25 <alise> Vorpal: monty python....................
21:51:46 <olsner> Vorpal: the hovercraft-full-of-eels sketch
21:51:54 <alise> dirty hungarian phrasebook
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22:07:23 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover_: Yes I do.
22:11:06 <cpressey> bezier curve with an infinite number of control points
22:12:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> cpressey, isn't that just the curve defined by the points...?
22:14:27 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover_: http://sprunge.us/CXTS
22:20:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> If it's an unbroken continuum, I think what said was correct...
22:22:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself).
22:31:18 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: the control points are cantor dust. of Yourself
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22:40:47 <pikhq> Much thanks to alise for telling me when I was being stupid about it.
22:41:57 <alise> rnf x = x `seq` () ;; this is stupid, btw >_>
22:42:05 <alise> (it's equivalent to () iff x halts, otherwise _|_)
22:42:37 <alise> i guess the thing does
22:42:48 <alise> x `seq` () `seq` x _probably_ == an evaluated copy of x
22:42:53 <alise> but it is definitely not required that this be so
22:42:59 <pikhq> alise: That's the point of NFData, though.
22:43:41 <pikhq> I know it's not *required* to work that way, but it generally does by encouraging further strictness.
22:44:11 <alise> pikhq: i don't see why rnf can't just be a -> a
22:44:15 <alise> rather than a -> ()
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22:45:26 <pikhq> Because hell if I know.
22:46:03 <pikhq> I'm just using Control.DeepSeq right is all.
22:47:12 <pikhq> And using deepseq because otherwise finding the fixed point of the optimisations takes forever.
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22:55:16 <alise> pikhq: Now add more AWESOME
22:55:22 <alise> <cpressey> bezier curve with an infinite number of control points
22:55:25 <alise> also known as: a function!
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23:03:18 <alise> Ctrl+C doesn't quit irssi.
23:03:21 <alise> Maybe in your LAMER terminals
23:03:49 <cpressey> Or maybe it's the Cygwin build of irssi is configured for extra lameness.
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23:09:42 <Gregor> cpressey: Way back in the distant past when you listened to zee4 and hated it, did you listen up to the 2 minute mark? Just out of curiosity :P'
23:10:28 <cpressey> Gregor: I don't remember. I want to say I listened to the whole thing.
23:10:43 <Gregor> Since you explicitly said that you DIDN'T listen to the whole thing, you want to lie apparently :P
23:11:04 <cpressey> And you want to ask questions about things you already know, apparently
23:11:25 <cpressey> Heck, it seems to go beyond "want" in your case.
23:11:27 <Gregor> You said you hadn't listened to the end, not that you hadn't listened to an arbitrary point I've now specified.
23:11:54 <cpressey> If I stopped listening somewhere, I sure as hell don't remember how long it was from the beginning.
23:12:27 -!- augur_ has joined.
23:12:32 <cpressey> I can give it another shot if you think it'll change my mind.
23:12:49 <cpressey> 'that dog' will just have to wait
23:13:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:13:40 <Gregor> I don't think it'll change your mind per say, even if that part is supermagic it's not going to be sufficient to betterfy everything else, I was just wondering if that section was part of the consideration.
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23:16:23 <cpressey> Gregor: Well, what starts around 1:30 redeems it somewhat
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23:19:03 <cpressey> Gregor: but yeah, no. I like 3 and 5 much better than 4 and 2
23:19:59 <Gregor> I too would place 4 at the bottom of the heap (though I like 2 more than that). I was thinking about adapting 3 for piano+melodica and making an acoustic recording of it :P
23:23:53 <Gregor> Apparently Civilization (the original) had barbarian diplomats.
23:24:01 <Gregor> TOTALLY not a contradiction of terms.
23:27:14 <cpressey> Gregor: does it have an ending? Zee3, not Civilization.
23:28:10 <Gregor> zee3 will need more adaption than that anyway :P
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23:28:29 <cpressey> I want to write a piece that has 2-against-3 in every measure
23:28:29 <Gregor> The fact that it loops means, amongst other things, that I can rotate it. The beginning that's the current beginning doesn't need to be the beginning at all :P
23:28:59 <Gregor> cpressey: Title it "Eat your God-Damned Chicken"
23:31:18 <oerjan> hm apparently they are logged too
23:31:41 <oerjan> this was really in reply to <fizzie> "If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact. Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging, --" I don't think we really do that latter part, and I'm not sure how that should be done. On the other hand, we're not exactly model freenode citizens anyway, what with the single-# thing and all.
23:32:01 <oerjan> i wanted to check if notices were a way
23:32:38 <cpressey> It's just a differently formatted purple line for me
23:32:39 <oerjan> um what has this to do with ops, really
23:33:01 <cpressey> I assume privs are required to notify?
23:33:37 <oerjan> in fact according to rfc, bots are _supposed_ to do that instead of ordinary messages. but no one cares about that.
23:34:10 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.13/20100914130356]).
23:35:12 <cpressey> i have no idea how this works.
23:35:41 <oerjan> ok you can do unlogged comments with undefined ctcps :D
23:35:54 <oerjan> i realize not every client will show them though...
23:37:15 <oerjan> cpressey: i just did /notice #esoteric Testing...
23:37:20 <alise> http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_ipol.txt
23:37:33 <alise> brian raiter code in an interesting-looking self-modifying string interpolation language
23:37:34 <coppro> it says "requested unknown CTCP TESTING from #esoteric"
23:37:41 <oerjan> and after that i tried /ctcp #esoteric testing Maybe _this_ works :D
23:37:54 <coppro> I did not see the notice then
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23:38:03 <coppro> oh wait, it's out of my scrollback
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23:38:12 <oerjan> coppro: oh your client doesn't show more than the TESTING part :(
23:38:18 <alise> coppro: how long until mathNEWS? >_>
23:38:28 <oerjan> coppro: NOTICEs are not ctcps afaik
23:38:29 <coppro> alise: production starts nowish
23:38:34 <Gregor> I must imagine clog still logs that ...
23:38:39 <alise> coppro: but my article!
23:38:47 <Gregor> It logs CTCP ACTION, after all.
23:38:47 <coppro> alise: either email or next week! now!
23:38:52 <alise> coppro: call up and say, literally, "stop the presses!" i will pay you infinite moneys
23:38:59 <oerjan> Gregor: clog does _not_ log unknown ctcp commands, i just checked
23:39:01 <alise> coppro: okay okay okay
23:39:09 <coppro> alise: it's not going to press yet, but it should be in soon
23:39:13 <oerjan> ACTION is special since it's used all the time
23:39:32 <alise> coppro: i can just put the markup in the email, right?
23:39:38 <Gregor> Hah, in fact, it even complains about it.
23:39:51 <alise> -clog- ERRMSG unknown CTCP: _ hurf durf
23:40:07 <alise> coppro: MATHNEWS SITE IS DOWN REQUIRE EMAIL ADDRESS URGENTLY
23:40:36 <oerjan> huh it's case insensitive
23:42:35 <cpressey> I have no idea if I'm doing it right or if anyone else can see it when I do it.
23:42:57 <Gregor> cpressey: I could see!
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23:43:19 <alise_> coppro: i need mathnews' email
23:45:26 <coppro> alise_: mathnews@gmail.com
23:46:10 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:46:22 <alise_> coppro: huh, the one on the website is a utoronto address; forwarded?
23:47:58 <oerjan> they're like several km from each other!
23:48:23 <alise_> coppro: I am placing blame on you in the email; be prepared to justify my crap.
23:48:53 <oerjan> not waterloo/kitchener on the other hand, _that's_ same thing
23:48:55 <alise_> "As a Brit who does not go to the University of Waterloo, does not study mathematics there and is indeed not even in Canada and has never been, clearly mathNEWS is the best publication for me."
23:49:15 <alise_> coppro: okayy, here goes
23:49:37 <alise_> coppro: expect to be contacted about this crazy-ass Brit trying to submit to the paper ASAP
23:49:40 <oerjan> alise_: hey you know with the crazy british libel laws there might even be an argument _for_ that :D
23:49:59 <coppro> alise_: I have a midterm in 10 minutes, but I'll check
23:50:09 <alise_> coppro: I hope they notice that I have <sup> in there which may not work >__>
23:50:16 <alise_> coppro: I didn't send anything to you, but I did blame you.
23:50:47 <coppro> alise_: it gets previewed
23:53:00 <alise_> coppro: but it's so _long_
23:53:23 <alise_> coppro: wonder if gmail's spam filter will block it
23:54:18 <coppro> I'm about to leave; yes or no
23:54:27 <alise_> and i just replied to it :P
23:54:31 <alise_> correcting a formatting error that gmail added
23:54:36 <alise_> also misspelling heads up as head's up...
23:57:11 <cpressey> <head><sup>No, this should be in <body>
23:57:43 <pikhq> Gregor: Google Translate, eh?
23:58:16 * oerjan wonders how many irc clients try to parse html tags
23:58:44 <Gregor> pikhq: What did it actually say (if it made any sense at all)
23:59:24 <pikhq> Gregor: CTCP ACTION: Mr. 's Japan brokenly speak.
00:00:18 <alise_> pikhq: I want to write a compiler now.
00:00:22 <alise_> Dammit life is awesome, have you ever noticed?
00:00:30 <oerjan> i think that deutsch was only gebrochen due to a missing suffix on the gebrochen
00:00:34 <alise_> You can DO SO MANY COOL THINGS in it.
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00:01:10 <pikhq> Headphones are awesome.
00:01:19 <alise_> pikhq: But LIFE moreso!
00:05:07 <alise_> pikhq: My preferred tags for an album are completely at odds with the completely official, multiply-confirmed ones. You may now maul me
00:11:18 <alise_> pikhq: I'll say in /msg since it's irrelevant and long
00:12:42 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise.
00:13:05 <pikhq> BTW, TV rips of series that are on DVD make baby Jesus cry.
00:33:24 <oerjan> <alise> x `seq` () `seq` x _probably_ == an evaluated copy of x <-- i think that's exactly equivalent to x by definition
00:33:55 <alise> pikhq: So does Nazism.
00:33:57 <oerjan> and as usual x will only be evaluated if the whole thing is
00:35:26 <oerjan> <alise> pikhq: i don't see why rnf can't just be a -> a
00:36:13 <oerjan> hm rnf is just one of the evaluation strategies right? now what if you wanted a strategy that did _not_ evaluate... it couldn't reasonably be a -> a
00:36:43 <alise> isn't it just deepseq's thing? maybe not
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00:37:04 <oerjan> i recall this from Control.Parallel.Strategies
00:38:18 <oerjan> rnf is deepseq essentially, but there are others that evaluate stuff in parallel instead
00:41:44 <alise> coppro: HURRY UP WITH THAT MIDTERM
00:41:55 <alise> oerjan: this is part of DeepSeq though in pikhq's code
00:41:58 <alise> pikhq: Make your compiler MORE AWESOME
00:42:48 <alise> coppro: should i expect an email back from the mathNEWS people or will it just appear?
00:42:51 <alise> (in the next issue)
00:42:57 <oerjan> alise: oh right rnf is a method of DeepSeq? but it's also the right type for those strategies iirc
00:42:58 <coppro> alise: one or the other
00:43:05 <alise> coppro: that's so helpful
00:43:23 <lambdabot> Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over.
00:46:04 <oerjan> <Gregor> Apparently Civilization (the original) had barbarian diplomats. <-- currently on front page of reddit: http://i.imgur.com/kWy5z.jpg
00:46:18 <oerjan> i guess that's from the newest version
00:46:45 <Gregor> Damn those barbarian paratroopers!
00:47:35 <alise> diplomatic paratroopers
00:47:49 <alise> coppro: wow, how do you guys even have a tv show
00:47:54 <alise> for a definition of tv equal to yt
00:48:00 <alise> also you guys = most vague use of tha tterm ever
00:49:39 <alise> coppro: my current perception of it is that about 10 people go to your university and they all write mathNEWS
00:49:48 <alise> do not attempt to disillusion me of this notion
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00:52:10 <pikhq> Banshee. *It fucking does video metadata*.
00:53:04 <alise> pikhq: Imagine iTunes. Now imagine transplanting iTunes onto Mono.
00:53:24 <alise> pikhq: It most likely just stores it in a database.
00:53:34 <pikhq> That is revolting.
00:53:58 <pikhq> WHY CANT THERE BE A NICE VIDEO PLAYER
00:54:07 <alise> pikhq: *cough* You know what this is leading up to...
00:54:12 <alise> LET'S INVENT OUR OWN PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE AND GUI LIBRARY
00:54:15 <alise> ALSO VIDEO PLAYER, AFTER ALL THAT
00:54:39 <alise> "The chronology is sometimes associated with Young Earth Creationism, which holds that the universe was created only a few millennia ago." Umm... Wikipedia.
00:54:42 <alise> You mean 6000 years.
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00:58:29 <oerjan> well do _all_ YEC agree on the precise date?
01:01:25 <pikhq> alise: Also change the entire distribution infrastructure.
01:01:41 <alise> oerjan: it's 5,000 -- 10,000 years basically
01:01:47 <alise> definitely not millennia
01:01:54 <alise> pikhq: Actually a nice GUI library for C would be nice.
01:02:02 <oerjan> um that _is_ millennia
01:02:20 <pikhq> alise: Say, make it so that all broadcast shows are sent out via an RSS feed alike, with a BitTorrent alike.
01:02:27 <pikhq> alise: With archives, of course, instantly downloadable.
01:02:35 <oerjan> millennium means 1000 years, millennia is the plural
01:02:53 <alise> pikhq: oh i thought you mean software distribution
01:03:10 <alise> iirc there was some work done on streaming bittorrent but i have no idea how that works
01:03:19 <alise> with it being out-of-order
01:04:06 <pikhq> alise: Wikimedia is currently testing it -- a combination of HTTP and BitTorrent, actually.
01:04:40 <pikhq> Use HTTP to fetch anything needed immediately, use BitTorrent to try and fetch stuff that's later in the stream.
01:04:49 <alise> pikhq: grotesque :)
01:09:55 <coppro> alise: I want to write an article, what should it be about?
01:10:15 <alise> coppro: write an errata for my errata
01:10:24 <alise> coppro: i can send you the full version
01:10:39 <alise> (note: my errata is pretty indisputably factually correct in every way that it actually tries to be factual, so this will be difficult)
01:11:04 <alise> coppro: "Actually, this IS valid Python code! Because I say so!"
01:11:04 <coppro> "errata: this article appears to be properly researched. In order to alleviate this concern, the following changes have been made"
01:11:28 <alise> coppro: I approve.
01:11:41 <alise> coppro: I have this sneaking suspicion that gmail's spam filter doesn't like my post, what with it being long and markuppy...
01:11:54 <coppro> hang on, I'll ask CorruptED to check right now
01:12:59 <alise> coppro: I am so glad the editors are corrupt.
01:13:14 <alise> coppro: I also sent a reply to that one correcting an error caused by gmail.
01:13:43 <coppro> hang on, the email account is busy
01:16:28 <alise> i am, however, insane enough to wait to see if it's received yet
01:16:31 <alise> because dammit this stuff is IMPORTANT!
01:16:51 <zeotrope> alise: what's the article about?
01:17:22 <alise> coppro: & the reply? okay.
01:17:24 <alise> now put it on the front page
01:17:55 <alise> zeotrope: Errata for the article "Python Implementation of ed" by *null, as printed in issue 114.1 of the University of Waterloo Faculty of Mathematics Student Newspaper mathNEWS.
01:18:10 <coppro> alise: can you send me a copy so that I can write errata to it?
01:18:41 <alise> coppro: certainly.
01:18:58 <alise> coppro: http://filebin.ca/wpeogf/mathnews-errata.html
01:19:13 <coppro> "Firstly, it appears that this article was written by a Brit. To correct for this, remove every usage of grammar."
01:19:18 <alise> (Yes, it's not HTML, but.)
01:19:30 <alise> coppro: the most solid point is the last one, btw
01:19:37 <alise> [[Printed in a newspaper with an incorrectly spelled name. While &mn; is an excellent newspaper, it unfortunately has a major blight against it: the incorrect spelling of its name as ``&mn;'', rather than the correct ``mathsNEWS''. This is the most severe flaw.]]
01:22:24 <alise> coppro: so yours will appear in the next issue?
01:22:30 <alise> or the same? <-- that would be super-ludicrous
01:24:20 <alise> zeotrope: bear in mind the original article is like six lines :P
01:24:30 <alise> i will squeeze every drop of blood from this stone
01:26:05 <zeotrope> how dare he fill such an esteemed paper with garbage
01:26:13 <alise> YES I KNOW the rest of it is so accurate
01:26:22 <alise> coppro: btw, i expect similar treatment of getting the gold master copy of yours before it's published
01:26:28 <alise> so i can publish my meta^2errata
01:26:39 <pikhq> alise: Y'know, fuck Hulu. It falls so short of what it could be.
01:26:49 <alise> pikhq: yeah. and fuck Hawaii too!
01:26:50 <augur> egg foo young is delicious D:
01:26:51 <pikhq> A set of RSS feeds attached to BitTorrent for me to gleefully download.
01:26:53 <alise> i leave you with this.
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01:27:45 <zeotrope> it is still technically piracy
01:28:14 <pikhq> zeotrope: Hulu is... Actually not piracy.
01:28:25 <zeotrope> I was talking about RSS + torrents
01:28:56 <zeotrope> which is definitely more convenient
01:29:27 <pikhq> Which is the point. :)
01:29:45 <zeotrope> some people frown on the piracy part
01:30:42 <zeotrope> and Hulu doesn't work outside of the USA
01:31:10 <zeotrope> so torrents are the only other option for many people
01:32:02 <zeotrope> country restricted content, what is this 1970?
01:32:48 <pikhq> As far as they're concerned, yes.
01:32:55 <pikhq> Oh, also: SCREW FLASH.
01:32:59 <pikhq> FLASH SUCKS FOR PLAYING VIDEO.
01:36:59 <pikhq> Flash sucks. Flash really, really, really sucks.
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02:45:26 <Sgeo> http://unitedcats.wordpress.com/2010/10/04/this-october-has-5-fridays-5-saturdays-and-5-sundays-all-in-one-month-it-happens-only-once-in-823-years/
02:45:35 <Sgeo> I hate humanity.
02:47:05 <Sgeo> Two of my friends "liked" a page claiming that
02:48:44 <oerjan> ok so the first part is actually correct
02:49:53 <oerjan> and the second obviously false for two different reasons i can think of
02:50:17 <Sgeo> What tipped me off was noticing that that's the same (or, at least, a superset of) months whose 1 is on a Friday and which have 31 days
02:50:36 <Sgeo> And I think you may be the second person I linked that to who didn't actually read the post
02:50:43 <oerjan> (1) it only depends on what day the first is on (2) the calendar _actually_ repeats every 400 years
02:50:53 <oerjan> oh i've started reading it
02:51:06 <oerjan> i'm just thinking about why it's false first :D
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02:56:53 <Sgeo> Well, it also depends on the month having 31 days
02:57:22 <oerjan> um i mean the year variation
02:58:15 <Sgeo> Well, depends on what day the 1st is, and whether or not it's a leap year, right?
03:00:13 <oerjan> _for october_ the leap year doesn't matter
03:00:58 <oerjan> i meant the first day of october, not of the year
03:01:00 <Sgeo> Are we talking Jan 1st's effects on October, or the day that Oct 1 is?
03:01:14 <oerjan> sheesh one really has to spell out everything here
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03:11:17 <Ilari> MAJOR FAIL: (roughly translated) "The Baddie of cholesterol is LDL, sources of which for example include cheeses.".
03:12:12 <Ilari> There is only one cholesterol. LDL is not cholesterol. And Cheeses don't contain LDL.
03:15:45 <Ilari> Oh, the original is apparently (roughly translated): "The baddie of cholesterol is LDL, which is only contained in hard animal fats. For instance cheeses include those".". Just as much fail: Animal fats do not contain LDL.
03:17:18 <lament> 1) "the baddie of cholesterol" doesn't have to be cholesterol
03:17:29 <lament> 2) "source" doesn't mean "container"
03:19:16 <Ilari> LDL is made by liver. I have no idea if LDL survives digestion proceses. Probably not.
03:21:36 <Ilari> Nor are animal fats source of LDL...
03:21:57 <Ilari> Wow, there's lot more fail in this article...
03:23:45 <Ilari> Well, its based on recomendations by (national) heart disease association, so no wonder...
03:24:11 <lament> yeah those idiots know nothing about cholesterol
03:24:59 * Sgeo was taught that HDL was "good" and LDL was "bad"
03:26:13 <Ilari> There are subtypes of LDL. Some better, some sightly worse. Then there's real nasty kind that shows up as "LDL" (but isn't) on common panels.
03:27:27 <Ilari> Oh, and statins (cholesterol-lowering drugs) don't do much to that real nasty kind...
03:29:08 <Ilari> But then, the common way of determining LDL yields quite wild results that are often quite wrong.
03:29:33 <Ilari> (HDL is measured and total cholesterol is measured, those are fairly accurate).
03:31:59 <Ilari> That kind being "real nasty", one would expect that it would be quite strongly associated with heart disease. Indeed it is.
03:35:12 <pikhq> Sgeo: Nutrition is much more complicated than "X is good for you and Y is bad".
03:36:06 <pikhq> Well, except that modern, industrial processed foods tend to be bad for you. :P
03:37:53 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and typical American portion sizes.
03:38:03 <pikhq> That's... Pretty obviously bad.
03:43:10 <Sgeo> Maybe I should start eating typical American portion sizes
03:43:43 <Ilari> But _WHY_ are typical american portion sizes so large?
03:44:57 <lament> but why is it pretty obviously bad?
03:45:38 <Ilari> Because it shouldn't be possible and indicates that something is badly wrong?
03:46:21 <lament> what shouldn't be possible?
03:46:42 <Ilari> The huge american portition sizes...
03:46:53 <lament> why shouldn't they be possible?
03:46:58 <pikhq> lament: Imagine a gigantic feast. We call it a "meal".
03:47:20 <lament> pikhq: i'm sure you realize that's total bullshit
03:47:20 <Ilari> Because very few should be able eat so much at once...
03:47:33 * Sgeo needs to eat more, so...
03:47:34 <lament> Ilari: nobody has any problems, really
03:47:52 <lament> just come to a restaurant and go crazy
03:48:09 <Ilari> Sgeo: "Just eat more and excercise less" is just as bad advice as "eat less and excercise more".
03:48:38 <pikhq> lament: 64 fl oz of soda (about 2L). As a single serving.
03:49:02 <lament> pikhq: that's not a standard serving size.
03:49:33 <lament> pikhq: i understand europeans perpetuating retarded stereotypes about americans, but you're american yourself and still doing that?
03:49:36 <pikhq> No, you're more likely to find 32 fl oz.
03:49:58 <Ilari> Here large bottle of soda is 1.5l... And the standard bottle (which is apparently meant as "serving" (ignore what manufacturers try to claim) is 0.5l.
03:50:01 <pikhq> With free refills.
03:50:41 * Sgeo tends to insist on small soda. If I get a large cup, I'll fill it up, then drink it all, and that's rather... uncomfortable
03:51:12 <Sgeo> Also, what, exactly, is wrong with eating more?
03:51:18 <Sgeo> For thin persons
03:51:44 <pikhq> lament: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/ryany/BigMacExtraValueMeal.jpg
03:52:32 <lament> pikhq: yup. so? that's actually smaller than most meals at a restaurant.
03:52:41 <pikhq> That's 3,000 calories.
03:52:59 <Sgeo> What's the daily amount, 20,000? Or is it 2,000?
03:53:21 <pikhq> Well, that's what the FDA bases their recommendations on.
03:53:37 <Sgeo> So I could just eat that and not need to eat anything else for the day?
03:54:13 <Ilari> Well, taking in too many calories isn't good because high metabolism isn't good (and the alternatives are even worse).
03:54:21 <pikhq> Well, no, because it's fairly devoid of nutrients. It just has the caloric content that it was declared one needs.
03:54:30 <lament> pikhq: there're 1350 calories in a large big mac meal
03:54:39 <pikhq> lament: That's a super size big mac meal.
03:55:37 <Ilari> Second law of thermodynamics: "Calorie is not an calorie.". :-)
03:55:43 <pikhq> lament: Erm, sorry. I gave the wrong damned number.
03:55:49 <pikhq> lament: That's... 1580. My fault.
03:55:53 <pikhq> Still bloody absurd.
03:55:59 <pikhq> Just significantly less so.
03:56:08 <Sgeo> I think my pasta that I eat each night has over 1k calories
03:56:24 <lament> pikhq: 1580 for a larger than normal portion
03:56:45 <pikhq> For some people, it's larger than normal.
03:56:47 <Sgeo> Ilari, what are the chances of me being able to talk to a competent person somewhere in the US?
03:56:53 <pikhq> For others, that's smaller than normal.
03:56:57 <Sgeo> Get a nutrition plan worked out
03:57:35 <Ilari> Sgeo: Pretty slim (unless you pick carefully).
03:57:42 <pikhq> (granted, you're talking a small but fat portion of the population when you're discussing the people who actually do stuff like have multiple Big Macs in a sitting)
03:58:22 <Ilari> With soda and fries?
03:58:45 <pikhq> Ilari: Well, of course.
03:59:17 <Ilari> Wasn't the "big mac guy" in "Supersize Me", well... Not fat?
03:59:34 <pikhq> I'm quite perplexed about that as well.
04:00:19 <pikhq> Though it does demonstrate that absurd amounts of food won't automatically make you fat.
04:01:01 <Sgeo> My step-mother constantly tells me that I'm not eating enough
04:01:05 <Ilari> Well, its about fat in - fat out. Not calories in - calories out (unless you define the latter quantities to make it a tautology).
04:01:06 <Sgeo> It's probably true, but still
04:01:15 <Ilari> (and that's at storage boundary).
04:01:28 <Sgeo> If I want advice, I can't get it from her, no matter how competent, or not, she may be, because she'll drive me up the wall
04:01:42 <pikhq> Ilari: Well, calories are nothing more than a rough estimate of how much energy you get out of that food, so... Yeah.
04:01:45 <Sgeo> She does drive me up the wall
04:02:27 <pikhq> (incredibly rough when you consider that there's freaking sugar water as a common beverage.)
04:02:33 <Ilari> If it was fat_absorbed - fat_burned, then it would be just plain _wrong_.
04:03:05 <Ilari> Because there's fat synthethis term as well, and it certainly can be nontrivial.
04:06:22 <Ilari> pikhq: Not to mention, same macronutrients can provode different amounts of energy depending on amounts of other macronutrients...
04:07:44 <Ilari> Oh, and then there is stuff like adjustable efficiency of ATP production...
04:08:06 <pikhq> Ilari: Shit's more complex than burning the dry food and seeing the change in temperature -- who would've thought!
04:08:22 <pikhq> Erm, change in temperature of the water above.
04:08:51 <Ilari> Not even all fats are equivalent calories. Let alone fats, proteins and cabohydrates...
04:09:07 * Sgeo would love to just be able to inject something that could deliver ATP to all his cells
04:11:12 <Ilari> Too bad that with what all cells can use (glucose), even few extra grams injected (fast) would be toxic...
04:12:32 <Ilari> IIRC, something like 3 grams in fast injection would cause your blood sugar to go to toxic levels...
04:12:32 <lament> a grassy mount Or set with two feet Gules winged Sable and in base a bar wavy Sable inscribed with zeros and ones Or
04:13:19 <Ilari> Or maybe it would take about 4 if blood sugar is slightly low.
04:14:52 <Ilari> (Amount of glucose circulating in blood of normal adult under normal conditions: About 5 grams).
04:16:48 <Ilari> Or, one could inject fatty acids. Considerably less toxic (but not all cells can use those... OTOH, body can produce glucose for those cells that absolutely need it).
04:17:26 <pikhq> Eh, just bring about the singularity. That'll solve it.
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04:26:32 <pikhq> No, you stupid Flash video, you do not need to keep buffering, there is already a 5% of the video buffer and increasing.
04:27:02 <pikhq> Whoever wrote this: you suck at programming and you should be ashamed of yourself.
04:27:31 <pikhq> Oh, and Adobe: you suck at programming and you should be ashamed of yourself.
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04:39:53 <Ilari> With "why are they eating such huge porititons" I meant things like why the satiety isn't kicking in? Why doesn't the body downregulate hunger and upregulate energy consumption to keep the weight in check?
04:44:52 <flippo> Lack of exercise. The metabolism has nothing to calibrate with.
04:47:42 <Sgeo> Does running to school/running for the bus count as excersize?
04:47:55 <Ilari> The amount of excercise required for that is very small (one pretty much has to go out of one's way to get that little)...
04:48:57 <pikhq> Ilari: I presume that means "you need to get out of bed and walk to the kitchen every now and then" kind of "little".
04:49:21 <Ilari> pikhq: Well, within that order of magnitude...
04:49:51 <pikhq> Ilari: Point being that you'd have to make a point of it to not do that.
04:50:07 <Ilari> Not to mention, excercise isn't important for weight control. One can also see this by comparing energy expended in NEAT vs EAT(a.k.a. excercise).
04:50:46 <Ilari> Well, if one has shortage of energy, then the excercise levels could drop a lot...
04:50:53 <pikhq> Well, I'd imagine it helps somewhat, in that it does actually expend energy.
04:51:45 <Ilari> When one is talking about energies expended by ten hour walk (or was it run?)...
04:52:40 <Ilari> The mechanisms body uses to waste energy easily waste order of magnitude more than one could burn by excercising.
04:53:35 <pikhq> And anywas, all the exercise in the world won't help you if you use more energy than you ingest.
04:54:09 <pikhq> Though if you use more energy than you ingest, you might be having trouble as well. :P
04:55:37 <Ilari> There are some dangerous chemicals sometimes used for weight loss. If one overdoses on them, the primary toxic effect is that they make body literally cook itself producing energy for use.
04:56:12 <pikhq> That's... Frightening.
04:56:30 <Ilari> pikhq: Oh, your appetite should go down a lot as well when weight goes up...
04:56:37 <Sgeo> Any nice chemicals for weight gain?
04:57:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: "Force-feeding", I believe is the term.
04:57:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: Though it's rather unlikely you actually need weight gain.
04:58:03 <Ilari> Sgeo: Well, I think I know couple, but they are not nice ones...
04:58:05 <pikhq> Presuming reasonable health and a lack of relevant mental disorders, of course.
05:00:56 <Sgeo> As a kid, Supposedly, in an attempt to get me to eat on my own, suggested by a doctor, my parents didn't try to force me to eat, hoping I would eat on my own.
05:01:44 <pikhq> Okay, you may have a disorder then.
05:02:21 <Gregor> Who wants to read/edit a silly game story for meeeee?
05:02:46 <pikhq> Gregor: Does it involve Americans being fatasses?
05:03:01 <Gregor> It doesn't, but it /could/.
05:03:54 <Gregor> ANYWAY, I wrote a silly but appropriately-over-the-top opening sequence for ZEE: http://codu.org/tmp/story.txt
05:04:10 <Sgeo> I just asked my dad, he said he thinks I might have imagined being told that
05:04:15 <Sgeo> FUCK FALLIBLE MEMORY
05:04:25 <Sgeo> FUCK IT IN THE ASS
05:04:36 <Gregor> Sgeo: So your disorder is just delusions, not dietary problems.
05:04:56 <Sgeo> Gregor, since when is being human a disorder?
05:05:05 <Sgeo> And my dad may be mistaken :3
05:05:18 <Gregor> Sgeo: Since roughly 1.5 million years ago, I'd say.
05:07:00 <pikhq> Gregor: Quite nice.
05:07:40 <Sgeo> Gregor, that's awesome
05:08:09 <pikhq> Gregor: Also, you need more time.
05:08:20 <Gregor> I CAN'T MANUFACTURE TIME
05:08:26 <Gregor> For ZEE, what I need is more workforce!
05:08:35 <pikhq> Get cracking on the singularity! That'll solve it!
05:09:46 * oerjan is sensing a pattern here
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05:12:41 <Gregor> Slereah: ... I love you.
05:12:54 <pikhq> unsafePerformIO suicideBomb
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05:13:24 <Sgeo> That could also be a point about people thinking this is esoterica
05:13:40 <Sgeo> </dont-explain-even-half-of-a-multifaceted-joke>
05:14:09 <Gregor> pikhq: Unsafe indeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!
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05:41:05 <pikhq> It rips CDs. And is sufficiently paranoid about it to ensure a perfect rip if at all possible.
05:41:50 <pikhq> And does nothing else. It just dumps WAVs to disk.
05:42:37 <pikhq> Sgeo: It can't fix a disc made 100% opaque.
05:43:28 <Sgeo> I'm having some trouble parsing that. You can't mean "literally unreadable by anything", can you?
05:43:43 <Sgeo> That's too trivial
05:44:03 <Sgeo> Wait, I guess portions could be fully opaque? Or am I just confused today
05:44:06 <Gregor> Sgeo: Too trivial for "if at all possible"
05:44:16 <Gregor> <Sgeo> Give me a corner case.
05:44:23 <Gregor> <Sgeo> No, not that one.
05:48:38 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, it also often functions as a circumvention device.
05:50:14 <pikhq> (some CD copy protection schemes function by introducing intentional errors that a dedicated CD player will ignore)
05:51:35 <Gregor> Lots of people have single-purpose CD players nowadays.
05:55:21 <pikhq> You'll note that CD copy protection schemes kinda fell out of favor after a few years. :)
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06:12:52 <zzo38> Please help me. I tried to compile TeX but it just made a lot of errors, and it won't compile.
06:12:54 <zzo38> There is the errors: http://sprunge.us/SEhT
06:14:23 <zzo38> Can you please tell me what I did wrong?
06:20:39 <Gregor> Even the esoteric topics in computing channel cannot save you from Pascal.
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06:22:12 <zzo38> Save me from Pascal? I don't generally program in Pascal, but this is a program that is Pascal.
06:23:58 <zzo38> Is there some command-line parameter I need to add?
06:24:09 <Gregor> Haven't a clue, never built TeX myself.
06:28:26 <zzo38> Which options of GPC cause it to emulate Pascal-H?
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06:51:16 <zzo38> Do I need to redefine alpha_file (in section 25)? I probably also have to redefine othercases
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07:12:06 <zzo38> I got it to compile with no errors, but now it complains about 'his.tex'
07:13:22 <zzo38> I cannot find anything in the program about what 'his.tex' is supposed to be.
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07:18:51 <zzo38> (I cannot find on Google or Wikipedia about what 'his.tex' is supposed to be, either.)
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07:24:05 <zzo38> What could probably be done, although it would take a very long time, is looking at the source-codes of TeX and rewriting it in Enhanced CWEB, changing things as necessary as you are moving along.
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07:28:30 <zzo38> Are you willing to collaborate on this project?
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13:43:49 <ais523> yay, my paper was accepted
13:44:19 <ais523> hmm, now what's going on?
13:44:29 <ais523> IRC is working fine, but I don't seem to be able to create new Internet connections
13:44:33 <ais523> not web or email, anyway
13:44:49 <ais523> oh, started working again
13:44:52 <ais523> it was just being really slow
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14:30:12 <ais523> ugh, the Internet here is crazy
14:30:25 <ais523> it sometimes doesn't form new connections for something like a minute, even though existing connections work fine
14:30:36 <ais523> (at least, for web and email)
14:32:09 <alise> 19:23:45 <Ilari> Well, its based on recomendations by (national) heart disease association, so no wonder...
14:32:09 <alise> 19:24:11 <lament> yeah those idiots know nothing about cholesterol
14:32:24 <alise> i'm glad our channel op is such a fine, upstanding citizen who believes everything the american government tells him.
14:32:54 <alise> better check your BMI
14:33:03 <alise> ais523: is that at uni?
14:34:22 <alise> ais523: take over the networking department
14:34:39 <alise> ais523: err, can Wooble actually do that while he's on hold?
14:34:54 <alise> oh hm or is deputisation one of those things even non-players can do...
14:35:57 <ais523> being on hold hardly stops anything
14:36:00 <ais523> it's not like BlogNomic
14:36:11 <ais523> mostly, it just lets people oust you from offices, and makes you ineligible for certain things
14:36:30 <Sgeo> Such as winning when everyone else is winning
14:36:33 <Sgeo> </still-bitter>
14:38:57 <quintopia> i looked at that once. seems awfully complicated (as any nomic that has been in existence for years upon years must)
14:39:18 <quintopia> but i GUESS it at LEAST has fewer rules than certain versions of DnD...
14:39:49 <alise> Ilari: you should publish a book about nutrition :-)
14:40:32 <ais523> <sysctl> Here is a quick summary of Java build systems: Q: What's the difference between Ant and Maven? A: The creator of Ant has apologised.
14:40:41 <ais523> I still don't see why they don't just use make, it seems to work fine
14:40:57 <ais523> meh, find | xargs javac works fine if you don't care about minimal recompiles
14:41:06 <Sgeo> Wait, seriously? Someone apologized for making widely-used software?
14:41:38 <ais523> Sgeo: it actually had a source for that statement, http://blogs.tedneward.com/2005/08/22/When+Do+You+Use+XML+Again.aspx
14:41:50 <alise> Sgeo: ant is awful
14:44:22 <Sgeo> That sounds like an apology for an aspect of Ant
14:45:34 <Vorpal> <ais523> it sometimes doesn't form new connections for something like a minute, even though existing connections work fine <-- maybe some firewall issue?
14:46:04 <alise> 05:43:49 <ais523> yay, my paper was accepted
14:47:08 <ais523> one about hardware compilation
14:47:33 <ais523> to be precise, we generalised a previous result from "programs that type in SCI can be compiled into hardware" to "programs that type in ICA can be compiled into hardware, with a few exceptions"
14:47:51 <ais523> which is pretty nice, because unlike SCI, ICA doesn't have a bunch of arbitrary restrictoins
14:48:17 <ais523> it was really much the same as a TC-ness proof, showing one lang compiles into another...
14:49:45 <alise> ais523: how's the Complex Systems publication going? ;)
14:50:04 <ais523> revise-and-resubmit phase
14:50:14 <ais523> with instructions that were too banal for me to be interested in them
15:07:17 <alise> 22:12:52 <zzo38> Please help me. I tried to compile TeX but it just made a lot of errors, and it won't compile.
15:07:21 <alise> zzo38: you don't compile TeX itself...
15:07:24 <alise> you compile the C translation
15:07:33 <alise> it's written in a crazy 70s Pascal that Knuth used
15:07:49 <alise> 23:24:05 <zzo38> What could probably be done, although it would take a very long time, is looking at the source-codes of TeX and rewriting it in Enhanced CWEB, changing things as necessary as you are moving along.
15:07:51 <alise> again, the C translation
15:07:54 <alise> 23:28:30 <zzo38> Are you willing to collaborate on this project?
15:08:23 <ais523> at some point I need to figure out what Enhanced CWEB is
15:08:30 <ais523> I can't even tell if it's a programming language or not
15:09:00 <alise> ais523: you know Knuth's CWEB?
15:09:11 <alise> ais523: you know Knuth's WEB?
15:09:22 <ais523> again no, but I've vaguely heard of it
15:09:42 <alise> ais523: WEB = the first literate programming system; TeX + Pascal. TeX is written in it, for instance.
15:09:58 <alise> Assign blocks of code to a name-with-spaces, include it later, macros, documentation all around it, etc.
15:10:01 <alise> ais523: CWEB = that for C.
15:10:10 <alise> ais523: Enhanced CWEB = what happens when you apply zzo38 to CWEB and peel it off after a few days.
15:10:14 <ais523> and Enhanced CWEB is a zzo38 version
15:10:34 <ais523> hmm, what's the converse of Not Invented Here?
15:10:47 <ais523> when you assume that the entire world uses software that was written by you?
15:11:11 <ais523> that seems to be unique to zzo38 and Microsoft
15:11:40 <alise> ais523: zzo38 has NIH too, though!
15:11:54 <alise> except it tends to be Not Invented Here, But That's Okay, I'll Cannibalise It
15:11:57 <ais523> yes, the converse of something being true doesn't mean that the thing itself is false
15:12:12 <alise> ais523: Used Elsewhere
15:12:16 <alise> ais523: Used Everywhere
15:12:30 <alise> Microsoft: NIH, UE; zzo38: NIHBTOICI, UE
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15:31:04 <Vorpal> alise, btw perhaps you know I'm against eyecandy animations and such? Today I realised what exactly is the issue with a lot of them
15:32:40 <Vorpal> that they are slow enough that you end up having to wait before you can do whatever you planned to do next. For minimising windows on OS X, it is quite fast but still, I had to wait before I could start reading the text in the window behind due to the animation covering it, only a fraction of a second, but still enough to be annoying.
15:33:12 <Vorpal> similar issues seem to apply to many other such animations.
15:33:23 <alise> Vorpal: That's just bad design.
15:34:08 <alise> Vorpal: A *good* hiding animation -- one that smoothly indicates what's happening -- would last only a few milliseconds, and the window would go semi-transparent too.
15:34:18 <alise> Perhaps even simply fade out *while on the way* to the dock.
15:34:38 <alise> This would help indicate what has happened -- believe it or not, your brain *can* act more efficiently with these cues -- without being irritating.
15:34:38 <Vorpal> alise, indeed that would work, but that was not what that version of OS X did at least.
15:34:47 <alise> Vorpal: btw, you change and speed that animation up.
15:35:01 <alise> change: system preferences -> set it to the one that isn't genie, stops it being irritating as fuck
15:35:04 <alise> speed up: some terminal bullshit
15:35:06 <Vorpal> alise, was helping someone with a thing, not my computer
15:35:18 <Vorpal> anyway, it wasn't the genie one
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15:37:20 <Vorpal> alise, but anyway, the os x minimising is just a rather extreme example of it (especially the genie style), there are lots of other such animations on both windows (vista or later only) and OS X that takes a fraction of a second too long. Sure there are some that don't annoy, but I guess you don't really remember those. Selective reporting and such.
15:37:44 <alise> Modern UIs aren't designed with HCI principles in mind; news at 11.
15:38:04 <alise> Jef Raskin died, now even less people care; news at 11.
15:38:55 <Vorpal> alise, the "zoom icon in dock while mouse is above it" is instantaneous as far as I remember, and is actually slightly helpful, at least if set to sane parameters for zoom level and such
15:39:27 <alise> Vorpal: It's not instantaneous -- it's... continuous.
15:39:35 <alise> As in, literally, the zoom changes focus even half-way between two icons.
15:39:44 <alise> The first hover over has a short animation to do the first zoom-and-expand of the Dock.
15:39:47 <Vorpal> yes, but I meant like:
15:40:06 <Vorpal> it doesn't take half a second if you quickly move your mouse down from middle of screen to the dock
15:40:06 <alise> I never turned it on; I could never predict where my mouse should go to reach an icon, due to the zooming.
15:40:11 <Vorpal> as soon as it is above it is zoomed
15:40:29 <alise> It probably helps a lot if you have tons of stuff in your Dock and thus have it at a small size.
15:41:52 <Vorpal> alise, or menus/submenus that takes a fraction of a second before they open. iirc windows xp had something like that. Was annoying.
15:42:04 <Vorpal> not an animation, but utterly pointless and not helpful at all
15:42:07 <alise> Vorpal: Uhh, as for submenus, GTK has that too.
15:42:16 <alise> As does *every interface you use*.
15:42:20 <alise> It's a shorter delay, but it's there.
15:42:32 <alise> Otherwise moving your mouse across tons of elements quickly would have menus flash everywhere.
15:42:33 <Vorpal> alise, yes, short enough to not notice, that's the key
15:42:35 <alise> Disorienting, to say the least.
15:42:47 <alise> Vorpal: Try it now; I bet you will notice.
15:42:48 <Vorpal> windows xp had "long enough to be annoying"
15:42:59 <alise> There's certainly a noticeable delay here, just not an annoying one or one you think about.
15:43:00 <alise> Vorpal: Well, yeah.
15:43:03 <alise> You could tweak that with TweakUI.
15:43:09 <Vorpal> alise, indeed there is a tiny delay
15:43:23 <Vorpal> alise, yes indeed, but why not make it right from the start
15:43:33 <alise> Vorpal: "It seemed like a good idea at the time."
15:43:46 <alise> TweakUI was released after XP. I don't think they changed the delay since at least 2000.
15:43:49 <alise> Maybe even before that.
15:44:00 <alise> And TweakUI's policy is basically "EXPOSE EVERYTHING", not "LET PEOPLE FIX EVERYTHING"
15:44:12 <Vorpal> alise, as for menus all over the place, not really annoying, classic mac OS used to do it that way. As do some other windowing toolkits
15:44:18 * alise decides to run OS X in VirtualBox.
15:44:22 <alise> "Hey, it can do EFI."
15:44:31 <alise> Although I'll have to emulate a 32-bit machine so this will be *fun fun fun*.
15:44:42 <alise> Oh god, it's distributed on a DVD, isn't it.
15:45:14 <alise> (Yes, I have a copy of Leopard; no, I don't have an optical drive.)
15:45:28 <Vorpal> when the base install of an OS doesn't fit on a single CD, something is wrong. :P
15:45:45 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah! Fuck you Slackware and Fedora!
15:45:51 <alise> Slackware is well-known for its bloat.
15:46:14 <Vorpal> alise, hm.... ubuntu: single cd, arch; single cd. And I don't mean netinstall.
15:46:22 <Vorpal> Gentoo: single cd last I looked
15:46:33 <Vorpal> though iirc they had a livedvd as well
15:46:34 <alise> Vorpal: It's simply a different distribution philosophy -- with the Slackware CDs, you can install anything you want.
15:46:51 <alise> Vorpal: It *does* suck, though.
15:47:05 <alise> But it isn't indicative of bloat.
15:47:14 <alise> (Well, in OS X's case, it basically is.)
15:47:23 <alise> (To be fair, there is also a whole lot of stuff on there.)
15:47:36 <Vorpal> alise, also note I said "base install". The definition of base install is rather fuzzy indeed. I would say it is completely different for arch and ubuntu for example
15:47:46 <pikhq> Still, you can fit your base install on a single CD just by defining a base install that's small.
15:47:48 <alise> Safari, all the i* programs, GarageBand, every single damn developer tool, misc. applications
15:47:56 <alise> pikhq: "Base install: The kernel!"
15:48:03 <pikhq> I think you can just about get Debian on a small stack of floppies still.
15:48:16 <cpressey> as long as i have butterflies flitting around on my desktop i'm happy
15:48:24 <pikhq> I know the *installer* still takes up 2 floppies.
15:48:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, has some minimum requirements. Bootable, useable package manager, some way to edit config files, a shell, can connect to network. Arch is pretty close to that minimum.
15:49:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: I... Can do that on a single floppy disk.
15:50:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed, it might be possible. However arch comes with a usable environment on the livecd too. Like you get a shell there. Useful to start any non-standard stuff like software raid or dmcrypt or such.
15:51:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, and fitting that on a floppy as well would be.... tricky
15:51:31 <alise> pikhq: Namespaces in C: solve.
15:51:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, besides the kernel I need to boot my system, all the drivers I need compiled in and almost everything else turned off is about 2.5 MB iirc.
15:51:53 <alise> Vorpal: No, you can have VESA.
15:51:57 <alise> You just don't want VESA.
15:52:17 <Vorpal> alise, I do have VESA fb :P, and I have a system with just VGA, no fb support at all
15:52:23 <Vorpal> not sure of kernel size
15:52:36 <alise> pikhq: Actually, howsabout figuring out a way to have functions on structures look nicer to call, and we can go from there and use that for namespaces.
15:52:37 <Vorpal> and not going to boot it atm
15:52:58 <ais523> hmm, that was a fun conversation
15:53:17 <ais523> I was talking to my supervisor and another researcher about implementing the fixed-point combinator in hardware
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15:53:58 <ais523> rather unambitiously, they agreed that even third-order fixedpoint combinators ((a->a)->(a->a))->a were practically useful
15:54:07 <Vorpal> <alise> pikhq: Namespaces in C: solve. <-- hm, not impossible, what about having some syntax sugar for appending a prefix to all identifiers, I guess that would approach C++ name mangling quickly, though with just namespaces you could do far cleaner than that
15:54:14 <ais523> although I think you can get up to arbitrary orders (with the caveat that such circuits always have a risk of running out of memory)
15:54:24 <alise> Vorpal: I mean without modifying the language.
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15:54:48 <ais523> is preprocessing allowed?
15:54:50 <cpressey> alise: #define, #define, #define. done.
15:55:00 <Vorpal> alise, <namespace>_<identifier> for all identifiers?
15:55:04 <alise> Vorpal: You can put everything as function pointers in a structure, but (1) that's ugly to construct and (2) you'd start wanting to be able to do foo->x(...) for a structure foo to mean foo->x(foo, ...) which is harder :-)
15:55:09 <ais523> Vorpal: but normally you want to be able to import namespaces
15:55:12 <alise> Vorpal: that's ugly and makes everything unconcise
15:55:15 <alise> ais523: not necessarily
15:55:26 <alise> even being able to just rename a namespace temporarily would be fine
15:55:49 <Vorpal> alise, is non-cpp preprocessing allowed?
15:56:26 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, with a custom preprocessor this would be simple. You could make one small enough to compile as the first step in the makefile or such
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15:58:29 <yorick> alise: what about preprocessing?
15:58:57 <cpressey> if only #define did pattern-matching. you could hack something together quite nicely i think
15:59:05 <alise> if you have to, I guess a simple textual substitution too
15:59:09 <alise> but nothing that involves tons of parsing :P
15:59:13 <yorick> alise: but what about?
15:59:29 <yorick> what do you want to accomplish?
16:00:15 <alise> <alise> pikhq: Namespaces in C: solve.
16:00:17 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if upp (which I haven't actually written yet, properly) would work for this?
16:00:23 <alise> ais523: upp? *scared*
16:00:30 <ais523> the Underlambda Preprocessor
16:00:44 <yorick> alise: what about namespaces in C
16:00:44 <ais523> it basically just does literal textual substitutions, but with a couple of interesting twists
16:01:03 <ais523> and is powerful enough to compile Underlambda into subsets of itself
16:01:23 <alise> yorick: see later on.
16:02:21 <ais523> let's see, it has only two commands
16:02:30 <ais523> one is / on a line by itself, which does nothing but which is referenced by the other command
16:02:37 <ais523> and the other is a/b for any character strings a and b
16:02:38 <cpressey> ais523: is "itself" bound to Underlambda or upp?
16:02:44 <ais523> cpressey: to Underlambda
16:02:58 <alise> cpressey: if it wasn't it'd be a trivial statement :)
16:03:18 <alise> since it means a subset of it could do underlambda code
16:03:18 <ais523> what that does, is it substitutes all instances of a with b in a) the thing you're preprocessing; b) the preprocessor program itself, but only beyond the next lone /
16:03:21 <cpressey> alise: i dunno, a preprocessor that can compile a language into subsets of a preprocessor...
16:03:22 <alise> meaning the full thing is TC
16:03:25 <alise> meaning it could compile it
16:03:35 <yorick> alise: for example, where are you responding to
16:03:40 <ais523> additionally, a/b will not substitute in text that itself was produced by a substitution, unless a lone / has executed in the meantime
16:04:01 <ais523> there, that's pretty simple
16:04:16 <ais523> but it lets you do block-replacements of fundamental commands, defining them in terms of each other
16:04:28 <yorick> <alise> pikhq: Namespaces in C: solve. <-- that has a "pikhq" in front of it
16:04:45 <cpressey> alise: even if it were TC, that wouldn't imply the statement was trivial
16:05:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: implementing fixed-point combinators and typed lambda calculus in hardware; namespaces in C; preprocessing Underlambda
16:05:30 <ais523> also a metaconversation about what conversations are running
16:06:09 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: personally, no clue
16:06:23 <alise> cpressey: i suppose not
16:06:26 <alise> yorick: i was addressing pikhq.
16:06:57 <alise> yorick: about "Namespaces in C: solve."
16:09:19 <Ilari> Hmm... Skin overheating by having laptops on lap for too long... Article included talk about cancer... I wonder if PUFA oxidation due to heat is involved...
16:10:20 <alise> Ilari: Only if you use a stupid laptop with an overly-hot processor :)
16:10:27 <alise> And the fan too low.
16:11:52 <Ilari> Of course, enough heat / radiation will damage skin no matter what, but stuff like PUFA concentrations could determine how sensitive or resistant one is (PUFAs are chemically unstable)...
16:12:30 <alise> pikhq: Do you have any opinions on Go?
16:13:44 <alise> ais523: heh, remember that mergesort I said I couldn't figure out what was wrong with?
16:13:52 <alise> ais523: changing "< end" to "<= end-1" fixed it.
16:14:09 <ais523> was it using floats as loop counters?
16:14:25 <ais523> (and non-integer floats, at that?)
16:14:37 <ais523> or was the code/ really/ isane?
16:14:54 <alise> ais523: well, in this case, floating point was involved, but there wasn't a loop counter
16:15:00 <alise> it was comparing elements in an array
16:15:07 <ais523> ah, and those were floats?
16:15:10 <alise> ais523: and tl;dr using floating-point infinity to denote end of array makes weird shit happen
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16:16:02 <ais523> screwing with infinities tends to do that
16:17:04 <Ilari> FP also has other weird shit like +0 and -0 are seperate numbers (that's actually useful in calculations).
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16:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Never did I think I'd see the day when there was a lambda calculus reference in a Star Wars webcomic.
16:24:26 <alise> pikhq: So, BF compilation.
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16:30:03 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't look like it from the first few Google results...
16:31:30 <ais523> hmm, I was just looking at the Linux manpage reboot(2)
16:31:37 <ais523> and I get the feeling I'm missing something
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16:31:55 <ais523> some of the hex numbers were obfuscated by being translated to decimal, for no really obvious reason
16:32:01 <ais523> and I don't see any significance in the hex either
16:32:53 <alise> on the Commodore 64 TCP/IP stack: "It doesn't do state tracking. It puts the state in the TCP sequence numbers. Save on RAM by passing state back and forth through the network."
16:33:13 <alise> ais523: one is linus' birthday
16:33:20 <alise> they all have significance as numbers
16:33:33 <alise> ais523: I know this because I wrote a program that calls it relatively recently :P
16:33:34 <ais523> I was assuming it was something NSFW, based on how oblique they were being
16:34:04 <alise> ais523: LINUX_REBOOT_* are constants for them in the kernel, RB_* in glibc
16:34:09 <alise> i suggest using the hex directly to avoid the headache
16:34:09 <ais523> I understand the purpose (to make sure that reboot isn't called by mistake by a program in undefined behavior)
16:35:01 <alise> so, I am pretty sure my mind faked Wake-Induced Lucid Dreams to me today
16:36:06 <alise> as in, I was dreaming, and my mind made me think I was falling asleep consciously, and provided fake hypnagogic imagery and sounds to fool me into this
16:36:09 <lament> is that when you think you dream of waking up and are currently in a lucid dream, but actually you woke up for real?
16:36:14 <alise> leading to a dream-in-a-dream
16:36:22 <alise> lament: WILD is just a method of achieving lucid dreams
16:36:36 <alise> you stay conscious but become very relaxed and let your body go to sleep
16:36:44 <alise> sort of related to meditation, I guess
16:37:00 <alise> lament: but I think my dream decided to start with me falling asleep using WILD
16:37:13 <ais523> alise: it sometimes end up dreaming I've worken up
16:37:14 <alise> and manufactured some hypnagogic imagery and (really irritating clanging) sounds to go with it
16:37:18 <yorick> I should practice lucid dreaming some more
16:37:21 <alise> leading to a fumbled attempt at a lucid dream inside a non-lucid dream
16:37:24 <alise> where everything was hideously unrealistic
16:37:33 <alise> sometimes before i fully got "into" a dream induced that way
16:37:33 <ais523> and gone through my normal morning routine
16:37:40 <ais523> and then actually woken up and had to do it all over again
16:37:40 <alise> and i saw a flicker of the "real world" and me moving slightly in it
16:37:43 <alise> so I thought, I'm not asleep enough for that
16:37:45 <alise> but that can't be right
16:37:48 <alise> because you're paralysed by that point
16:37:52 <alise> and completely asleep
16:38:01 <alise> so I'm fairly sure that if i had let that happen, I'd have "woken up" into an actual dream
16:38:10 <alise> and presumably have performed a reality check due to the circumstances...
16:38:15 <alise> but i was too stupid to realise this at the time :)
16:38:17 <alise> then i woke up for real
16:38:23 <alise> OH GOD I HAVE 7 FINGERS
16:38:26 * alise has quit (Connection reset by peer)
16:38:28 <ais523> once you know you have to perform a reality check, everything becomes pretty easy
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16:38:41 <ais523> but somehow, you rarely think of doing that in a dream
16:38:50 <alise> ais523: yeah I just look at my hands and if I have fingers sprouting out of my other fingers I just jump out the nearest window
16:38:58 <alise> that's the easiest way to get places in a dream!
16:39:04 <alise> (note: if I ever end up with deformed hands, I am so dead)
16:39:27 <ais523> alise: oh, I tend to invent methods of transportation in my dreams
16:39:33 <yorick> I tried the reality checks...most of them give false negatives inside dreams :/
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16:39:45 <Vorpal> <alise> as in, I was dreaming, and my mind made me think I was falling asleep consciously, and provided fake hypnagogic imagery and sounds to fool me into this <-- hm, soon there is no way we can trust anything :P
16:39:46 <alise> yorick: hands always works for me
16:39:54 <alise> I either have more than five fingers, or fingers are placed in ways that geometry doesn't quite allow
16:40:01 <alise> Vorpal: I N C E P T I O N
16:40:01 <ais523> you know about the science-fiction idea of going somewhere distant via going there over the course of years (at near-lightspeed), but in such a way that the people aboard don't perceive most of it?
16:40:11 <Vorpal> alise, rings a bell but can't place it
16:40:18 <alise> ais523: I haven't heard of it, but go on.
16:40:23 <yorick> alise: my fingers are always fine while I'm dreaming...and I can even touch them
16:40:27 <Vorpal> I never remember to perform reality checks when dreaming...
16:40:29 <ais523> well, when I move around in my dreams, it's normally using a means of transport that does that over really short distances
16:40:31 <alise> Vorpal: a recent film about nested dreams-within-dreams
16:40:43 <Vorpal> and I very rarely remember my dreams
16:40:44 <alise> Vorpal: and people from higher levels of dreams being able to change them and stuff
16:40:47 <yorick> alise: I haven't tried breathing with my nose closed yet :/
16:40:49 <alise> but it sounds worth watching
16:40:54 <ais523> some sort of capsule thing that takes days to go just a few miles, but you're unconcious for most of it so don't care
16:40:58 <alise> yorick: the fun thing with more than five fingers
16:40:59 <alise> is that you can feel them!
16:41:04 <alise> you can use a finger to touch a fake one
16:41:06 <quintopia> alise: :o it was the best movie of the summer what's taking you so long?
16:41:09 <alise> and it feels like a strange buzzy feeling
16:41:13 <alise> quintopia: i'm lazy
16:41:23 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, did you go into a lucid dream just to recreate Inception?
16:41:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: :D
16:41:34 <ais523> the thing that really annoys me about Inception, is that it seems that everyone who watches it goes to everyone they know and says "I watched Inception"
16:41:45 <ais523> to the extent that I worry that it's specifically designed to brainwash people into doing that
16:41:46 <alise> ais523: you know, you *can* just invent a magic mirror
16:41:47 * yorick was invisible last time :)
16:41:53 <alise> you don't have to have sci-fi dreams
16:42:11 <ais523> alise: I suppose it's to do with the sort of transport I use in RL
16:42:23 <ais523> I rarely move around via the fastest method
16:42:30 <quintopia> ais523: well, i did that, but i also saw it on the night it came out, so it wasn't a trend yet. now people do it because everyone keeps pestering everyone to see it so they have to tell them to stop the pestering
16:42:37 <ais523> many of my esolang ideas are developed waiting at bus shelters
16:42:44 <alise> ais523: Somehow, even when I'm totally lucid though, I can't convince myself that I can control reality. As in: it requires absolute belief in that what you're about to do will work to change the gameworld. I am apparently too rational to summon up such faith.
16:42:53 <alise> ais523: This saddens me.
16:42:55 <Vorpal> ais523, and a really strange transport method
16:43:16 <ais523> alise: it works better if you invent a pseudoscience explanation, even if you don't believe in pseudoscience
16:43:19 <alise> ais523: Maybe I should become religious for the practice.
16:43:27 <alise> ais523: Unfortunately my periods of lucidity also tend to be short. :(
16:43:39 <yorick> yeah...same...but you can prolong them :)
16:43:40 <ais523> shift into the fourth dimension, do stuff there, with the knowledge that you can manipulate that based on the fact that you own the device that lets you go there in the first place
16:43:42 <alise> Also, I tend to sleep only when I'm really tired on weekends; this rarely seems to lead to dreams I remember for me.
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16:43:51 <ais523> alise: you only sleep once a week?
16:43:52 <yorick> (spinning around will mostly work)
16:43:56 <Vorpal> ais523, start traveling by train until you finish of the current unfinished ones then!
16:43:56 * Phantom_Hoover decides to try defining the braid group in Coq for the halibut.
16:43:57 <alise> yorick: I've done the tactics, like feeling a brick wall a lot and staring at the details.
16:44:04 <alise> yorick: It never works.
16:44:09 <ais523> oh, I misparsed your sentence
16:44:17 <quintopia> reality check: can anyone here pinpoint the last time they had a stereotypical dream?
16:44:18 <alise> yorick: As soon as I move away and stop looking like someone with Down's syndrome, everything becomes fuzzy again.
16:44:19 <ais523> I didn't even notice it was ambiguous until you assumed I was being sarcastic
16:44:30 <ais523> quintopia: even my stereotypical dreams are rather non-stereotypical
16:44:42 <yorick> alise: maybe...the brick thing works better?
16:44:49 <alise> ais523: with normal days, I don't sleep long enough for a nice lucid dream really
16:44:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, there are some very common dreams and nightmares.
16:44:54 <alise> yorick: So just stare at a brick the whole time??
16:45:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, I don't get them though. Or at least I never remember them
16:45:04 <yorick> alise: how am I supposed to have bricks?
16:45:09 <quintopia> aka, a dream where your teeth are falling out and/or a dream where you are having trouble controlling a car/driving it from the back seat
16:45:15 <alise> <alise> yorick: I've done the tactics, like feeling a brick wall a lot and staring at the details. <yorick> alise: works for me
16:45:20 <alise> <alise> yorick: As soon as I move away and stop looking like someone with Down's syndrome, everything becomes fuzzy again. <yorick> alise: maybe...the brick thing works better?
16:45:30 <yorick> (17:43) < alise> yorick: It never works.
16:45:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I've had some serious up-messery of my scale perception before
16:45:34 <yorick> (17:43) < yorick> alise: works for me
16:45:34 <alise> quintopia: I have never had any of those dreams.
16:45:40 <quintopia> i've had both of the former in the last month but I can't remember exactly when. I haven't flown since I was a child.
16:45:43 <alise> yorick: "how am I supposed to have bricks?" what does this mean
16:45:48 <yorick> alise: how am I supposed to find bricks to stare at
16:45:49 <Phantom_Hoover> But that was while trying to get to sleep, not actually once sleeping.
16:45:54 <alise> yorick: Uhh, leave the house you're in.
16:45:56 <alise> Look at the bricks.
16:45:57 <Vorpal> quintopia, I guess stereotypical dreams differ between persons
16:46:00 <alise> yorick: You said works for me; presumably you already do this.
16:46:02 <alise> So why are you asking me?
16:46:13 <yorick> alise: because I recognize the feeling if it becoming fuzzy again
16:46:17 <quintopia> Vorpal: well, had any dreams that sound similar to those ideas?
16:46:23 <yorick> alise: and yes, mostly the places I dream of are not made of bricks
16:46:32 <Vorpal> quintopia, I never seem to have recurring themes in my dreams either
16:46:38 <ais523> hmm, both my house and my workplace are made of bricks
16:46:56 <yorick> usually either polished plastic or metal
16:46:56 <ais523> Vorpal: mine rarely have recurring themes, but they tend to have consistent geography with each other
16:47:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: My most common recurring nightmare when I was young was -- imagine a zoomed-out satellite picture of a huge city on a regular British day -- not sunny, not raining. A ladder: I am on this ladder. It stretches down to the ground; my vision is that satellite picture. At the top: A hot air balloon. Someone in it -- that I recognise, encourages me to climb up further.
16:47:09 <ais523> which is unusual mostly in that the geography in the dreams is /not/ the same as the real world
16:47:12 <Vorpal> ais523, that is a theme by the definition I used
16:47:15 <alise> But before I get close to the balloon, the ladder tips forwards and falls away.
16:47:16 <quintopia> i have had a few recurring themes. but my best dreams are one time only
16:47:18 <alise> I start falling and wake up.
16:47:40 <yorick> my most recurring nightmares currently is being stabbed/shot by my friends :/
16:47:42 <ais523> alise: oh, you mean a solid ladder, rather than a rope ladder, etc.
16:47:42 <alise> ais523: interestingly, I universally start lucid dreams in a warped version of my old bedroom
16:47:46 <alise> ais523: yes, metal
16:47:48 <Phantom_Hoover> My dreams are either really boring or all very slippery in memory.
16:47:49 <ais523> that's balanced on the balloon?
16:47:55 <alise> ais523: although it's only barely resting on the hot air balloon IIRC
16:47:57 <Vorpal> ais523, I remember having two dreams tonight, one when the alarm clock woke me up, and one when it woke me up again after 5 minutes of snooze
16:48:01 <alise> so there's no real reason it should stay up for that long
16:48:02 <ais523> that could be an interesting situation to set up in RL
16:48:04 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't remember what they were about
16:48:06 <alise> but this *is* a dream
16:48:12 <alise> ais523: interesting, ha, you'll never see me on it :D
16:48:13 <ais523> dream physics is different
16:48:15 <alise> ais523: anyway it was ridiculously high
16:48:37 <alise> I looked down and big landmarks were like my thumb and ... whatever the finger next to the thumb is curled together
16:48:41 <ais523> alise: "ridiculously high" is about as accurate as you can get for dream physics
16:49:02 <alise> The Millennium Dome wouldn't be very big, even.
16:49:15 <alise> I was *seriously* high up.
16:49:16 <Vorpal> as for nightmares, haven't had one that woke up and/or that I remembered for months. Probably years
16:50:08 <alise> ais523: Anyway, it's weird -- once the ladder tipped forwards, it basically disappeared
16:50:09 <ais523> strangely, the detail that normally causes me to reality-check and wake up is something really minor
16:50:13 <Vorpal> <ais523> alise: "ridiculously high" is about as accurate as you can get for dream physics <-- hm
16:50:14 <yorick> last dream I remembered was having a conversation with the news-guy on the alarm clock when it was about to wake me up yesterday
16:50:24 <ais523> alise: of course it did, a ladder that tall can't stand on end without something to support it
16:50:24 <Vorpal> ais523, I have a vague memory of seeing an altimeter in a dream
16:50:26 <ais523> so it clearly doesn't exist
16:50:35 <alise> I rarely wake up after a reality check, but lucidity never lasts long.
16:50:40 <alise> ais523: I never said I became lucid
16:50:42 <ais523> (note: this logic /actually works/ in dream physics)
16:50:53 <alise> ais523: I've always wanted to end a lucid dream by setting pi to 3.
16:51:05 <alise> I imagine everything would explode in a whirl of circles and I'd wake up as my dream physics engine crashes.
16:51:05 * yorick has never done a reality check that came out negative :/
16:51:09 <Vorpal> ais523, it was reading out something like "8238aj and half a donut" or something equally ridiculous though, though it seemed normal in the dream
16:51:16 <alise> yorick: try looking at a clock, look away, check it again
16:51:20 <alise> reading is impossible in dreams
16:51:27 <ais523> yorick: well, it mostly happens for me when not lucid; I'm not sure if I've ever been properly lucid
16:51:33 <yorick> either I just go "wth...I'm dreaming!", or "I must be dreaming, lets try a reality check...no it never works"
16:51:35 <ais523> but sometimes I randomly decide to reality-check and it comes out negative
16:51:35 <alise> you can only focus four words at a time and you can never seem to read them, and if you look even to the right a bit then back they'll have changed
16:51:44 <ais523> and that always causes me to instantly wake up
16:51:45 <alise> yorick: you need to reality check in *usual* situations
16:51:49 <alise> the whole point is that dreams never seem unusual
16:51:50 <yorick> alise: I tried that once, it pointed to 4:01 twice
16:51:51 <cpressey> I had a dream last night with a terrible book about Python in it. (The text was English prose, but it was syntax-highlighted similarly to Python...)
16:51:52 <alise> so you can't rely on that
16:52:04 <ais523> cpressey: you've been using pastebins too much
16:52:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i had an awesome dream recently
16:52:18 <Vorpal> alise, no reading is possible, as long as you don't try again or actually try to read. I dreamed reading street signs, as well as numbers a few times.
16:52:22 <alise> there was some sort of thing similar to a zombie apocalypse but not quite
16:52:30 <alise> it was like being in an action film, you know you can't die, it's just awesome
16:52:35 <cpressey> ais523: I've been looking at too much Python, that's for sure.
16:52:41 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't actually read though, just kind of dreamed that I had
16:52:42 <alise> also I did LSD twice... not sure why
16:52:53 <alise> it seemed like a good idea at the time
16:52:56 <yorick> alise: clocks work in my dreams, so does reading
16:53:04 <alise> ais523: (what was "bad idea" to?)
16:53:24 <ais523> instead of getting lucid dreams, you get non-lucid real life
16:53:29 <yorick> it feels strange to see it being 4:01 pm on sunday, then waking up and, 8 hours later, see it being 4:01 pm on sunday again
16:53:43 <quintopia> also, there's an experiment someone did once where they'd present some text on a screen to read, and they'd do pupil tracking, and every time they caught a saccade, they'd replace what the viewer was just looking at with different text.
16:53:45 <ais523> which is kind-of the worst of both worlds
16:53:45 <alise> ais523: I'd say ego death is a bit more than simple non-lucidity...
16:53:50 <Vorpal> alise, trying LSD in a dream or?
16:54:04 <yorick> quintopia: that's just horribly evil
16:54:06 <quintopia> and because the eyes can't really detect such subtle changes when saccading, it was really disturbing trying to read it...
16:54:07 <ais523> quintopia: that seems evil
16:54:12 <alise> ais523: besides, I'm pretty sure you can't think "hey, this isn't realistic" when you're on LSD
16:54:32 <quintopia> ais523: i don't even know what they were trying to test for. i should look it up again.
16:54:36 <ais523> I have almost a religious level of horror/abhorrance at things that affect my ability to think straight
16:54:46 <alise> ais523: but that doesn't matter because you'd be idiotic to do it without someone who's done it before around.
16:54:47 <ais523> quintopia: who cares, that's a great experiment anyway
16:54:50 <alise> ehh, it's on my list of things to try some day
16:54:53 <Phantom_Hoover> "it's the .NET framework, most people already have it on their computer" how does someone this stupid write anything that comes near working?
16:54:55 <alise> ego death sounds fun
16:54:57 <quintopia> i should try LSD sometime. i need a good babysitter tho
16:55:13 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, most people with a computer probably /do/ have the .NET framework installed
16:55:19 <quintopia> you've seen the LSD sketching experiment haven't you?
16:55:24 <ais523> I'm assuming that most Windows XP users have needed it for something by now
16:55:32 <quintopia> ...but not with quite as high a dose
16:55:38 <ais523> meh, I have Mono installed even though I'm on Linux
16:55:53 <ais523> due to an occasional need to run .NET programs
16:56:04 <alise> quintopia: i'm not sure that was lsd
16:56:17 <alise> quintopia: if it was, it must have been a mild dose, surely
16:56:23 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's a .NET bytecode interpreter, plus libraries
16:56:26 <alise> quintopia: i doubt anyone could draw on a regular dose of LSD.
16:56:38 <quintopia> alise: you've clearly not seen the experiment
16:56:52 <alise> quintopia: but i'm having a hard idea of perceiving someone pick up a pencil and put it on paper
16:57:10 <quintopia> well, they basically had to force him to, and at a certain point even that didn't work
16:58:02 <alise> high doses of LSD are interesting, since the active dose is so incredibly, ridiculously small, but the fatal dose is ridiculously high
16:58:33 <quintopia> i think they gave the guy like 100mg or something like that
16:58:42 <alise> I can't imagine how they could possibly do anything more than a regular highish dose, though...
16:58:53 <alise> i mean, i'd say that's fairly close to the most anything can do to you :P
16:59:19 <alise> anyway in the dream LSD was pretty boring really, everything was just a certain colour and like a day passed in a few minutes and i was back where i started
16:59:28 <alise> the non-zombie 'pocalypse was much more fun
17:00:14 <quintopia> i was close. apparently it was 100 g
17:00:14 <ais523> alise: I assume that if you actually fell asleep while on LSD, the dreams you got (if any) wouldn't be that different from normal dreams anyway
17:00:31 <ais523> quintopia: only out by a factor of 1000!
17:00:35 <ais523> that's close in one sense, but not in another
17:00:41 <alise> ais523: well, in the first LSD trip, Albert Hofmann fell asleep (after a bad trip)
17:00:51 <quintopia> ais523: nah, it's only 3 orders of magnitude
17:00:54 <alise> ais523: and then woke up feeling tingly and joyful
17:00:57 <alise> after an uneventful night
17:00:59 <quintopia> 1000 sounds like such a big number. 3 is better
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17:01:21 <alise> 100 mg of LSD is well below the fatal dose, I think
17:01:24 <ais523> yes, but orders of magnitude can be so much larger than individual units
17:01:28 <alise> (which is comparable to other drugs with active doses in the mgs)
17:01:33 <alise> (rather than the ... mugs)
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17:02:03 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Drug_danger_and_dependence.png
17:02:06 <alise> active vs lethal doses
17:02:10 <ais523> it's worrying enough that you can be affected by a microgram of anything, if you think about it; humans have a chemical balance so complex it can be upset by even that small an amount of a chemical
17:02:14 <alise> doesn't give absolute values, just the ratio
17:02:21 <alise> but LSD has the lowest
17:02:30 <alise> surprise, surprise, heroin has the highest
17:03:10 <alise> [[Typical doses in the 1960s ranged from 200 to 1000 µg while street samples of the 1970s contained 30 to 300 µg. By the 1980s, the amount had reduced to between 100 to 125 µg, lowering more in the 1990s to the 20–80 µg range,[14] and even more in the 2000s.[15] [16]]]
17:03:18 <alise> this makes it hard to figure out the fatal dose since it depends on the figures the graph is using :D
17:03:35 <alise> "Estimates for the lethal dosage (LD50) of LSD range from between 200 µg/kg to more than 1 mg/kg of human body mass, though most sources report that there are no known human cases of such an overdose. Other sources note one report of a suspected fatal overdose of LSD occurring in November 1975 in Kentucky in which there were indications that ~1/3 of a gram (320 mg or 320,000 µg) had been injected intravenously. (This is a very extraordinary amount, partic
17:03:35 <alise> ularly when compared to the average LSD dosage of ~100 µg)."
17:04:31 <ais523> by comparison, the lethal dose of water is around 8 kg
17:04:43 <ais523> and even then, the antidotes are relatively simple and readily available
17:04:58 <alise> ais523: are you trying to say
17:05:00 <alise> "don't take LSD, take water"?
17:05:02 <ais523> (pretty much anything that dissolves in water works, as long as it isn't dangerous to eat itself)
17:05:09 <ais523> alise: I'm just trying to draw a comparison
17:05:25 <tombom> what if, like, we're all taking hundreds of ml of a drug every day??
17:05:36 <ais523> meh, I can get drunk on water pretty effectively anyway
17:05:43 <tombom> and we're all hallucinating and lsd reveals the real stuff...
17:05:50 <alise> tombom: I N C E P T I O N
17:05:51 <tombom> what if the drug is.... water
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17:06:16 <cpressey> So what is this Interpol language, and howcum it's not on the esowiki?
17:06:27 <ais523> there's an esolang called Interpol?
17:06:38 <quintopia> there's one with a simular name...
17:07:04 <cpressey> ais523: there's a *language* called Interpol, and it *looks* kinda esoteric: http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_ipol.txt
17:07:11 <alise> it would be interesting to see someone try 1 mg of LSD (10x the active dose; absolute minimum estimated lethal dose is 200 µg/kg, so you'd have to be something like 5kg for this to kill you)
17:07:33 <alise> that's not a similar name, that's just oklopol
17:07:42 <alise> cpressey: well, you know Brian Raiter
17:07:51 <alise> and if he codes in it...
17:07:54 <quintopia> oklopol, interpol. . .same difference
17:08:01 <alise> quintopia: oklopol is a person
17:08:03 <alise> cpressey: i linked that yesterday btw
17:08:11 <alise> the last quine is my favourite
17:08:16 <cpressey> alise: yes. that's why it's in my browser. mocking me.
17:08:19 <alise> harfharfharfharfharfharfharfharfharfharf!
17:08:49 <alise> cpressey: gthompso@nyx.net
17:08:56 <alise> or ask brian himself
17:09:00 <ais523> alise: Brian Raiter works at Google, I doubt all his programming is in esolangs
17:09:15 <alise> breadbox [whirlpool] muppetlabs [spot] com
17:09:19 <alise> ais523: shaddap :)
17:09:33 <ais523> alise: I didn't get a reply last time I sent a query there
17:09:37 <ais523> although I can't remember what it was about
17:10:05 <ais523> I never got a reply from the author of that WP7 INTERCAL interp either
17:11:11 <ais523> hmm, according to a Reddit comment, ads on domain-parked pages have a click-through rate of 50-80%, because there's nothing else to click on
17:11:21 -!- pineal_aenimal has joined.
17:11:35 <ais523> I can believe that the average Internet user doesn't realise that not every page needs to have a link followed from it
17:12:44 <ais523> quite a few people commenting in the thread were actual former domain parkers
17:13:19 <quintopia> you'd have to pick a good domain to get good results with that tho
17:13:50 <ais523> yep, a high conversion rate is pointless if people never visit the site in the first place
17:16:00 <alise> ais523: Underload optimisation; discuss.
17:16:08 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:16:29 <ais523> alise: apart from the S command, you can do quite a bit due to the side-effect-free nature of the language
17:16:41 <alise> ais523: the S command is sort of the point :P
17:16:44 <ais523> given that going below the end of the stack crashes the program, any subprogram can only access finite stack
17:16:56 <ais523> thus, it can be seen as a function
17:17:27 <ais523> so Underload optimization works much like Haskell optimization, you just need to deal with the Ses somehow
17:18:23 <oerjan> S'es are simple, just treat the whole program as producing a list of output, surely?
17:18:49 <ais523> oerjan: that's effectively making them into a monad, which is one possible solution but one I've never seen used
17:19:16 <cpressey> i was actually wondering last night how to make oerjan's kolakoski sequence generator manage to output more than a dozen digits on my C impl of underload
17:19:43 <alise> cpressey: tail recursion
17:19:51 <cpressey> alise: it does do tail recursion
17:20:22 <ais523> tail concatenation helps, too
17:20:26 <alise> ais523: Unlambda compilation; disgust.
17:20:29 <oerjan> well i don't recall the bots having a problem with it...
17:21:03 <cpressey> alise: or do you mean, write the underload program tail-recursively? i don't even know how that would be possible
17:21:08 <ais523> have I actually posted the source to derlo anywhere, yet?
17:21:20 <ais523> cpressey: tail-recursion in Underload is a ^ just before a )
17:21:42 <ais523> e.g. the standard infinite while loop is (:^):^, and any sane interp should be able to run that forever without overflowing stack, etc
17:22:00 <ais523> well, I should just say "infinite loop", there's nothing /that/ while-loopy about it
17:22:08 <oerjan> it still shouldn't crash on a dozen digits, i doubt my program is _that_ space leaky :D
17:23:24 <alise> ais523: (^), the most pointless program ever; discuss
17:23:32 <alise> although (^)* might be useful for something
17:23:35 <alise> although what i know not
17:23:39 <alise> a(^)* is definitely silly, though
17:23:48 <ais523> it's just a fancy identity
17:24:08 <ais523> (^) is plausible for use as a data element in some encoding scheme
17:24:20 <ais523> IIRC one of oerjan's programs used it, although I can't remember the context
17:24:37 <ais523> arguably, (^) and (!) could be used for true and false
17:24:48 <oerjan> the rule 110 one, probably
17:25:14 <alise> true = (~!^); false = (!^), imo
17:25:17 <alise> at least useful true and false :P
17:25:32 <ais523> alise: I normally use either those, or () and (!())
17:25:42 <alise> those are confusing
17:25:43 <oerjan> : and ^ were the simplest way to encode data using just 1 char per bit
17:25:43 <cpressey> wow. i totally cannot think today.
17:25:44 <ais523> if you append ^ to the second set, you get (^) and (!)
17:25:47 <alise> hmm, what's zero and one?
17:25:54 <ais523> (!()) and () respectively
17:25:59 <quintopia> (^) almost reminds me of the standard Imp. Someone should make a Underload Battle Arena for fighting Underload programs.
17:25:59 <alise> there you go then :P
17:26:08 <oerjan> : and a were also possible iirc but more messy
17:26:11 <ais523> they make nice booleans because "loop n times" is easy in Underload
17:26:18 <ais523> so an if statement is "loop 0 times" vs. "loop 1 time"
17:26:23 <alise> ais523: i don't like how zero's different :<
17:26:30 <alise> it's unlike, e.g. the lambda calculus
17:27:53 <ais523> alise: it isn't really: you can construct the numbers as 0 = (()'!_), 1 = (()':_*'!_), 2 = (()':_*':_*'!_), etc
17:27:56 <alise> does anyone here like Logo?
17:28:03 <ais523> they just happen to optimise into much neater forms
17:28:06 <alise> ais523: hey, no using underlambda syntax
17:28:30 <ais523> (that's underlambda; 'x = (x); _ = ~a*^)
17:28:59 <ais523> hmm, I'm missing some ~s there
17:29:03 <ais523> cpressey: it's far from finished
17:29:07 <alise> cpressey: vapourware
17:29:07 <ais523> and I tend not to put partial langs up there
17:29:15 <ais523> alise: less vapourware than Feather
17:29:21 <ais523> because at least I have an idea where it's going
17:29:21 <alise> except with ais523 you can get close to the vapour and inhale
17:29:30 <alise> and for a few lovely minutes, your brain doesn't work at all
17:29:39 <quintopia> ais523: did you choose the underload command names so that source would naturally be littered with emoticons, or was that just happenstance?
17:29:41 <alise> as you try to understand retroactive non-synchronicitic variable term rewriting of the past
17:29:44 <ais523> besides, aren't all my esolangs vaporware at some point
17:29:52 <alise> quintopia: it was clearly designed for (:aSS):aSS
17:29:57 <ais523> quintopia: I tend to gravitate towards punctuation marks
17:30:02 <alise> you can even make an argument that that can be read as
17:30:06 <ais523> the aSS thing is actually entirely concidental
17:30:07 <alise> "push double ass, double ass"
17:30:21 <ais523> if it were deliberate, it would have been properly capitalisd
17:30:40 <alise> (because : is dup)
17:30:57 <alise> ais523: any objections to me removing [[Underload#Self-interpreter]]?
17:31:00 <alise> it's ridiculous and blatantly false
17:31:18 <ais523> it's "correct" in a joke-esolang sort of way
17:31:30 <alise> ais523: right, but keymaker was serious at the time :)
17:31:30 <ais523> but pretty much every lang has a self-interp on that basis
17:31:43 <alise> Ah, my bad. I honestly didn't think about it, this idea of passing control is obvious now, but quite new to me. I was thinking along the lines that if the data gets run, it's interpreted. :) Anyways, how would one convert the Underload program to Church numerals? (I have no idea about those.) And would some other encoding be ok (probably would)? And what would it be if my Underload-interpreter-in-brainfuck was modified to have the program we want to execute
17:31:43 <alise> directly in the memory without the interpreter reading it from user, and that brainfuck program was then converted to Underload with ais523's brainfuck-to-Underload program. Would that suffice? --Keymaker 14:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
17:31:59 <ais523> the problem is that there are several different conceputal ways to think of Underload
17:32:07 <ais523> and that method is perfectly natual in some, and abhorrent in others
17:32:20 <alise> "HTML source code" --you
17:32:24 <ais523> (S is a wart on the lang, in that it screws some of them up; Underlambda is going to redefine output to fix that, I just haven't decided how yet)
17:32:34 <ais523> alise: well, it's hardly a binary
17:32:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:32:45 <alise> ais523: "HTML source" i would have accepted
17:32:53 <quintopia> so what would the correct way of writing a program that recursively interprets itself in underload (the same way that one that what's his name wrote for C does)?
17:33:02 <alise> ais523: it's markup!
17:33:07 <alise> okay so i'm not normally this anal
17:33:11 <alise> "HTML source code" just threw me off
17:33:20 <Vorpal> is golfscript usable for anything but golfing?
17:33:21 <ais523> quintopia: you'd have to write an interp for something, then quine into the lang that interp used as input
17:33:29 <alise> i vaguely recall that
17:33:34 <ais523> Vorpal: obviously, it permits embedded Ruby
17:33:51 <Vorpal> ais523, okay but apart from that, which is kind of cheating.
17:34:00 <ais523> which reminds me, I want to make a usable application in pure CSS (plus a DOM element to start it off) someday
17:34:10 <ais523> even if it's sub-TC, you can still create something useful
17:34:20 <Vorpal> ais523, what would it do?
17:34:31 <alise> ais523: well, you have content: and attr() (I think it's spelled like that)
17:34:33 <ais523> some sort of state machine, I think
17:34:36 <alise> as well as hover and focus
17:34:42 <quintopia> i was thinking of madore's scheme self-interp
17:34:42 <ais523> I was planning to use mouseovers for input
17:34:43 <alise> so you can do some things with it
17:34:54 <alise> ais523: oh, and the custom-defined list numbering in CSS(is it 3? I think so)
17:34:57 <alise> lets you do ridiculous things
17:34:58 <cpressey> quintopia: underload interpreter in underload?
17:35:01 <quintopia> is there a really short way to do that in underload?
17:35:14 <alise> quintopia: an underload self-interp is non-trivial
17:35:21 <alise> although not that non-trivial
17:35:22 <ais523> alise: hmm, not really
17:35:29 <alise> ais523: mm, maybe not
17:35:44 <ais523> you just need a lookup table and a bunch of concatenations
17:36:21 <cpressey> that reminds me, i want to do the meta-circular thing with a rewriting lang someday
17:36:33 <cpressey> but underload is somewhat interesting too
17:37:02 <quintopia> remind me what meta-circular means? is that the name for the "evaluate string" as flow control idea?
17:37:06 <oerjan> choosing the input encoding looks like the hard bit ;D
17:37:18 <alise> <ais523> you just need a lookup table and a bunch of concatenations
17:37:23 <alise> oh i thought it was about css counter stuff
17:37:26 <alise> but it's non-trivial, certainly
17:37:27 <cpressey> quintopia: an interpreter for language X, written in language X, basically
17:37:28 <alise> trivial is trivial
17:37:30 <ais523> ^ul (!())((zero)(!^)(one)(!^)(two)(!^)(three)(!^)(four)(!^)(five)(!^)(six)(!^)(seven)(!^)(eight)(!^)(nine)(!^)(ten)())~(!!)~^^S^
17:37:30 <fungot> (zero)(!^)(one)(!^)(two)(!^)(three)(!^)(four)(!^)(five)(!^)(six)(!^)(seven)(!^)(eight)(!^)(nine)(!^)(ten)() ...out of stack!
17:37:44 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-circular_evaluator
17:37:50 <alise> that's just a self-interpreter
17:37:57 <ais523> also, wrote the table backwards
17:38:09 <alise> I hate it when useful distinctions are lost due to people misusing terms...
17:38:25 <oerjan> yeah that's ironic *ducks*
17:38:47 <alise> oerjan: It's like rain / on your wedding day
17:40:04 <ais523> ^ul (!())(:*:*)(::**)(:*:*:*)(~(()(ten)(!^)(nine)(!^)(eight)(!^)(seven)(!^)(six)(!^)(five)(!^)(four)(!^)(three)(!^)(two)(!^)(one)(!^)(zero))~a*^(!!)~^^( )*S^:^):^
17:40:04 <fungot> eight three four zero ...out of stack!
17:40:41 <alise> ais523: proposal: remove () from underlambda
17:40:42 <ais523> ^ul (::**)(:*)(::*:**)(~(()(ten)(!^)(nine)(!^)(eight)(!^)(seven)(!^)(six)(!^)(five)(!^)(four)(!^)(three)(!^)(two)(!^)(one)(!^)(zero))~a*^(!!)~^^( )*S^:^):^
17:40:43 <fungot> five two three ...out of stack!
17:40:44 <alise> ' and * make it redundant
17:40:53 <ais523> alise: () is still useful, though
17:41:05 <ais523> (also, you need a as well to make it redundant)
17:41:18 <ais523> Underlambda is somewhat golfed
17:41:24 <ais523> and parens are useful for that
17:41:37 <alise> ais523: is there a non-()-using program that pushes () on the stack?
17:41:39 <alise> I don't think so, but...
17:41:46 <quintopia> cpressey: so the distinction is that when an interpreter provides direct access to it evaluation methods, one can write an interpreter for that interpreter that really just asks the parent interpreter to do interpretation?
17:41:50 <alise> (abcd) -> ':'!*'a*'b*'c*'d* :-D
17:41:54 <alise> quintopia: sort of
17:41:59 <ais523> no, but only for the trivial reason that the first command in any Underload program has to be ()
17:42:09 <ais523> or something containing ()
17:42:12 <alise> quintopia: it's like writing a scheme interpreter in scheme that just handles lambda and similar control structures, making them into real lambdas, and passes off the actual evaluation to APPLY
17:42:27 <ais523> in Underload, there's a command to push () onto the stack, it's called 1
17:42:30 <alise> i.e. it does name lookup, basic control structures, and things like macros if it does them; but actual (f x y z) is handled by (apply f (list x y z))
17:42:43 <alise> it's a self-interpreter that uses the language's actual interpreter to do most of the work for it, basically
17:42:54 <ais523> alise: that's a correct sort of interp, though, and often is used to interp one lang in another
17:42:56 <quintopia> yeah that's what i was trying to say
17:43:00 <alise> <ais523> no, but only for the trivial reason that the first command in any Underload program has to be ()
17:43:30 <ais523> in Underlambda, you can do ((x)!) or something like that
17:43:42 <ais523> because it's only the semantics of a codeblock that matter, not its literal representation
17:43:49 <ais523> cpressey: what don't you get?
17:44:17 <alise> <ais523> because it's only the semantics of a codeblock that matter, not its literal representation
17:44:36 <cpressey> show me a self-interpreter that isn't meta-circular. to me, it's just a matter of degree (how direct is your circularity?)
17:44:53 <alise> cpressey: for instance, a Python-in-Python implementation that implements its own object system
17:44:57 <ais523> Underlambda's S command outputs functions, and its D command inputs them
17:44:58 <alise> and does tree-based AST interpretation
17:45:08 <ais523> it's interp-defined what format's used to output the functions
17:45:55 <ais523> anyway, there are any number of subsets of Underlambda that are TC
17:45:59 <quintopia> or any interpreter for B written in A, where A and B are unrelated, which is then interpreted by a A interpreter written in B.
17:46:04 <ais523> for a while, I even thought about embedding BF-minus-comments in it
17:46:17 <quintopia> that pretty much forces you not to ask the A interpreter for help
17:46:21 <ais523> but < and > don't fit well with the execution model without requiring a really complex definition of + and -
17:46:48 <ais523> quintopia: I was thinking about that just now; for Scheme, the sticking point seems to be closures in the intermediate language
17:47:10 <ais523> as in, a self-interp's considered to be a "true" self-interp if it goes via an intermediate representation that doesn't include closures
17:47:31 <cpressey> alise: in your example, the object system isn't directly meta-circular... but since it's still defined, indirectly, in terms of itself, i can't bring myself to call it "not" meta-circular
17:47:41 <quintopia> ais523: so Clojure is out of the question? that seems silly, since Clojure can be compiled to java bytecodes...
17:47:57 <alise> cpressey: You know, there is a use for terms that are not precise slicings of the world in two.
17:48:09 <alise> In this case, "metacircular" is obviously not precise, but even Lojban has vague adjectives.
17:48:27 <ais523> quintopia: it's a self-interp either way, but there's sort-of a distinction between "compile then execute", and "interpret without compiling"
17:48:40 <ais523> the first is often considered cheating, especially if the compile step is very simple
17:48:52 <cpressey> alise: you seem to feel it's precise enough to yell *wrong* at me when I do a first pass explanation
17:48:53 <ais523> on the other hand, it's not a straight distinction in that there's no cutoff, it's a continuum
17:49:14 <alise> cpressey: If I was yelling, I would have used uppercase. And it was more so that quintopia doesn't get confused.
17:49:17 <ais523> what does "meta-circular" mean anyway?
17:49:24 <ais523> I haven't been yelling about the definition because I have no idea what it is
17:49:26 <alise> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-circular_evaluator
17:49:41 <alise> i *did* link that definition before, but ofc you didn't see it :)
17:49:47 <ais523> ugh, clog's being slow
17:50:03 <alise> ais523: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-circular_evaluator
17:50:09 <alise> that filter causes you way more problems than it solves
17:50:11 <ais523> got it before you posted that
17:50:17 <ais523> alise: it's solved loads of problems for me
17:50:27 <Vorpal> argh, I'm away for three minutes and I come back to several screenfuls
17:50:29 <quintopia> ais523: do you filter them to empty string or to [missing link] ?
17:50:31 <Vorpal> anyway, bbl for quite a bit
17:50:32 <ais523> the problems it causes are problematic, but not that bad
17:50:40 <ais523> empty string would be rather confusing
17:50:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: I never meta-circ).
17:51:02 <alise> ais523: also relevant: http://goatse.cx/
17:51:10 <alise> quintopia: he doesn't like links
17:51:14 -!- alise has left (?).
17:51:16 -!- alise has joined.
17:51:16 <ais523> people pestering me, mostly
17:51:20 <cpressey> alise: i apologize for spreading confusion.
17:51:27 <alise> cpressey: Sacrifice goats!
17:51:37 <ais523> the vast majority of IRCers assume that if they post a link, everyone will read it
17:51:55 <ais523> making myself unable to follow them at least gives me a plausible excuse
17:52:05 <ais523> to say "no I haven't read it because I filter links, and I don't particularly care anyway"
17:53:06 <ais523> alise: hmm, the wikipedia article seems to consider meta-circular evaluators as not being self-interps
17:53:12 <ais523> whereas I see them more as a special case
17:53:18 <alise> ais523: err, the wikipedia article doesn't say that
17:53:21 <alise> and you're obviously right
17:53:27 <quintopia> if i were to do the same i'd have my client go ahead and fetch the link up until it reaches a <title> tag, then filter the link to the title
17:53:33 <ais523> "The difference between self-interpreters and meta-circular interpreters is that the latter restate language features in terms of the features themselves, instead of actually implementing them. (Circular definitions, in other words; hence the name). They depend on their host environment to give the features meaning."
17:53:35 <ais523> oh, it's a direct quote
17:53:49 <quintopia> that way i can know what the link was to, while still being able to deny having received a link
17:53:50 <ais523> sorry, Wikipedia, it's actually Reginald Braithwaite who I disagree with
17:54:12 <ais523> but there are some sites I don't even want to send TCP requests too
17:54:23 <ais523> the firewall here is somewhat insane
17:54:33 <alise> someone's been lying to the pavement again
17:54:51 <alise> ais523: ah, what raganwald meant there is
17:54:57 <alise> "difference between them and REGULAR self-interps"
17:55:05 <ais523> could just be lack of context
17:55:24 <alise> he's a smart guy, so
17:55:46 <ais523> now I want to write an Underload quine where every string is treated either entirely as data, or entirely as code
17:56:05 <ais523> as in, either S is never run on it, or ^ is never run on it
17:56:47 <ais523> it probably wouldn't fit into one line of IRC, though
17:57:45 <quintopia> ais523: do you have someone that goes through your web access logs seeing which domains you've accessed?
17:58:00 <ais523> quintopia: yes in theory
18:00:39 -!- aloril has joined.
18:01:25 <ais523> at least the firewall's stopped portscanning me
18:03:27 <ais523> (yes, all my ports are closed to anyone but 127.0.0.1. Why do you care? You're a NAT, it's not like anything would happen even if the ports were open, as I don't have a public IP...)
18:05:20 <alise> apparently y is not defined
18:05:22 <alise> stupid scoping rules
18:05:45 <alise> ais523: INTRA-UNIVERSITY ILLEGAL FILESHARING OVER PORT 453
18:06:16 <ais523> alise: I hadn't even thought of communicating with other people on the same subnet
18:06:18 <ais523> if indeed there are any
18:06:43 <ais523> surely they could just firewall it at the router if they cared that much?
18:06:54 <ais523> (as in, insist all traffic went to a different subnet?)
18:07:21 <alise> w[Y,X]=46;X-=1;w[Y,X]=64;D(0,0)
18:07:21 <alise> w[Y,X]=46;X+=1;w[Y,X]=64;D(0,0)
18:07:28 <alise> guess what it does!
18:07:45 <ais523> moving the character in a roguelike
18:07:58 <ais523> 64 is @, the characters are typical roguelike movement keys
18:08:11 <ais523> I don't know 46 off by heart, but suspect it's . based on context
18:08:25 <alise> i like how C is ais523's go-to calculator
18:08:34 <alise> ais523: it is, yes
18:08:36 <alise> guess what D does :P
18:08:40 <ais523> most langs don't convert between integers and characters transparently
18:08:55 <ais523> hmm, D is less obvious, especially as the params are always 0
18:08:59 <ais523> also, EgoBot isnt here
18:09:21 <alise> cpressey: yes; what are the arguments?
18:09:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:09:39 <cpressey> offset into screen to start updating at, maybe?
18:10:42 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's a language project by me
18:10:43 <alise> cpressey: here's D's definition:
18:10:45 <alise> for B in range(b,b+23):
18:10:45 <alise> for A in range(a,a+80):
18:10:45 <alise> s.addch(B-b,A-a,w.get((B-12,A-40),46))
18:10:51 <ais523> based around an esolang, also with the same name
18:10:51 <alise> note: b/B is y, a/A is x
18:10:55 <alise> just renamed them to avoid clashes
18:11:22 <ais523> the idea is to build an esolang that's easy to compile into other langs, and easy to compile other langs into
18:13:03 <Phantom_Hoover> So taking Brainfuck's niche as the standard language for proof by isomorphism?
18:13:16 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: nah, most langs are hard to compile /into/ BF
18:13:22 <ais523> the idea is to make it work both ways
18:13:24 <quintopia> goddamit they set off the fire alarm again
18:13:39 <ais523> to get, eventually, an automatic converter between any two esolangs
18:13:46 <ais523> hopelessly inefficient, ofc, but who cares
18:14:09 <alise> yay, my roguelike now moves around properly
18:14:13 <alise> now to do scrolling
18:14:17 <alise> (it's on an infinite plane)
18:15:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I would capitalise the 't', but is there such a thing as non-Euclidean topology?
18:15:13 <alise> interestingly, in this game, pressing a direction key for long enough will cause you to run out of memory
18:15:16 <ais523> hmm, does Python accept thin-spaces for indentation?
18:15:16 <alise> as the sparse array is filled
18:15:35 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: i think topology might be non-Euclidean by default.
18:15:41 <ais523> it would be great if you could mix all the different space-widths in Unicode
18:15:42 <cpressey> in that, Euclid never touched the stuff
18:15:46 <alise> ais523: do you want to see what i currently have?
18:15:57 <ais523> I might take a look when I'm finished
18:16:06 <alise> ais523: it's 23 lines, FWIW
18:16:11 <ais523> hmm, I have a strange aversion to unreleased projects
18:16:24 <alise> it's finished as far as moving around goes ;)
18:16:25 <ais523> I tend to like to get things done first before an official release
18:16:28 <alise> well apart from scrolling
18:16:38 <ais523> yet, provide copies of the work-in-progress to anyone who asks
18:16:55 <ais523> (the only programs where people frequently have asked are jettyplay, and occasionally AceHack)
18:17:11 <ais523> I tend to incorrectly assume that the rest of the world operates like that, for some reason
18:17:24 <alise> if we're more then, let's say, 15 characters out of the centre
18:17:28 <alise> then scroll one place
18:17:33 <ais523> btw, we were discussing mono earlier? I seem to remember that the mono program I ran, I downloaded the source from codeplex.com
18:17:34 <alise> so X,Y are the centre
18:17:47 <ais523> and both their web-links and svn links weren't working properly, so in the end I used a recursive wget
18:18:59 <alise> note to self: make that faster
18:19:20 <alise> well that isn't working
18:19:40 <ais523> hmm, Slashdot are debating commercial breaks on television
18:19:55 <ais523> when I was in Canada (mostly receiving US TV channels), whenever a commercial break came on I changed channel
18:20:06 <ais523> and checked back a few minutes later to see if it was still there
18:20:30 <ais523> I mean, I do that in the UK too, except I rarely watch television there
18:20:33 <ais523> and tend to get stuck on the BBC
18:20:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's long, frequent breaks
18:21:31 <alise> ais523: hmm, more frequent than ours though I think
18:21:48 <alise> e.g. Star Trek, over here, tends to do the abrupt-fade-out-then-in-again that usually signals an advert break, even when there's no adverts
18:21:51 <ais523> yep, typical in the UK is one or two minutes every 10-30 minutes, randomized
18:23:17 <alise> it's random? really?
18:23:19 -!- augur has joined.
18:23:31 <alise> ais523: also, not on Sky it isn't!
18:23:31 <ais523> alise: when I actually cared, which wasn't for very long, I didn't notice an obvious pattern
18:23:42 <alise> more like 3 minutes every 15 minutes
18:23:43 <ais523> I could only get the terrestrial channels then
18:24:04 <ais523> some of the adbreaks were extremely short, like 20 seconds altogether, but those were rather rare
18:24:17 <alise> most likely just sponsors
18:24:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: uh, occasionally.
18:25:09 <alise> why doesn't this work...
18:25:20 <alise> somehow decreasing x increases Y!
18:25:57 <alise> hmm, doesn't quite work with diagonals
18:26:10 * alise puts some random dust into the playfield to make it easier to see
18:26:27 <yorick> alise: it's overflowing!
18:27:13 <alise> oops, now it randomises every time :-D
18:27:21 <alise> and i leave a snail trail
18:29:01 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:29:33 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: have you not seen Forte?
18:29:44 <alise> ais523: I have done more than the Crawl developers could.
18:29:45 <ais523> every command in that which isn't a no-op or simple I/O permanently gets rid of a number from that program
18:29:53 <alise> (Made a larger-than-screen playfield that scrolls non-annoying.)
18:29:56 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte
18:30:02 <alise> That was not difficult!
18:30:16 <ais523> alise: NetHack scrolls like that too, but only if you're using an unusually small terminal
18:30:20 <ais523> (normally there's no need)
18:30:33 <alise> ais523: hmm, what values does it use instead of 15 and 5? I guess you're unlikely to know :P
18:30:56 <alise> i think 15 and 5 may be a bit too low
18:31:08 <alise> although 5 has the nice property that it scales well from 15
18:31:21 <alise> (the last line is reserved for my babble)
18:31:27 <alise> the terminal is 80x24
18:31:29 <alise> so it should be *23
18:31:49 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya.
18:31:51 <alise> hmm, so it should be 4
18:33:05 <ais523> ugh, the code uses some sort of complex dead-reckoning for efficiency, which makes it hard to read
18:33:10 <ais523> seriously, NetHack, you micro-optimised /that/?
18:35:05 <alise> ais523: do you know the simplest way to get curses to just bloomin' restore the terminal at the end?
18:35:47 <ais523> it moves the screen left and right by 20 at a time if it gets within 5 of the left or right screen edge; vertically, by half the screen height (not counting topl, botl) if it gets within 2 of the screen edge
18:36:00 <ais523> alise: endwin does that automatically, or should
18:36:09 <ais523> as long as your termcap's set up correctly
18:36:18 <alise> you don't even need echo
18:36:46 <ais523> hmm, your code isn't identical to NetHack's code
18:36:59 <alise> ais523: do you know the values it uses?
18:37:05 <alise> i've done s/15/17/
18:37:06 <ais523> <ais523> it moves the screen left and right by 20 at a time if it gets within 5 of the left or right screen edge; vertically, by half the screen height (not counting topl, botl) if it gets within 2 of the screen edge
18:37:33 <alise> 1 at a time is the only way to avoid disorientation
18:37:40 <ais523> also, edge cases are handled in the actual code, but not in that description
18:37:53 <ais523> alise: well, Crawl scrolls 1 at a time, if it gets more than 0 from the centre
18:38:52 <ais523> so you're doing it in a mix between the NetHack and Crawl styles, which are close to being opposites
18:39:18 <alise> ais523: mine's the style that doesn't give you a headache ;)
18:39:39 <ais523> strangely, I found that in Enigma, which has level-configurable scrolling, the least confusing tends to be scrolling an entire screen instantly whenever you move within a few pixels of the edge (keeping one line)
18:40:09 <alise> ais523: nethack's is especially awful if you end up holding down one of the keys at the edge
18:40:16 <alise> since your character bounces around
18:40:43 <ais523> alise: well, bear in mind that NetHack levels are only 80 characters wide
18:40:54 <alise> whereas mine is infinite
18:40:55 <ais523> you'd bounce at most three times before you reached the other end of the level, no matter how small your terminal
18:40:58 <alise> and procedurally generated, hopefully
18:41:18 <alise> (the function to *draw the screen* will randomly assign stuff to unassigned cells in view, I think)
18:41:20 <ais523> they're all procedurally generated, pretty much
18:41:23 <alise> ais523: it's also a golfed roguelike :P
18:41:44 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if you could make the Mandelbrot set into a roguelike?
18:41:58 <ais523> place stairs on bits more detailed than the current zoom level
18:42:06 <ais523> going downstairs zooms in, upstairs zooms out
18:42:07 <alise> <ais523> place stairs on bits more detailed than the current zoom level ;; you mean every bit?
18:42:10 <alise> you can zoom in anywhere
18:42:17 <ais523> alise: I mean, where there's anything interesting
18:42:20 <ais523> rather than solid black or white
18:42:25 <alise> and i think if you use naturals instead of silly colours, you have detail everywhere but the centre
18:42:26 <ais523> that's rather more limited, to the "edge" of the set
18:42:28 <alise> very boring detail, but still
18:42:29 <Gregor> Just s/stairs/some magic/
18:42:52 <alise> ais523: Unfortunately, the Mandelbrot set is a bit slow to compute.
18:43:15 <ais523> I remember writing my own Mandelbrot program
18:43:22 <alise> heh, my program crashes with no message if you resize the terminal and do anything
18:43:29 <ais523> where you could zoom right in until you started hitting distortions due to floating point rounding
18:43:32 <alise> it just refuses to run with no message if your terminal is the wrong size
18:43:59 <ais523> the interesting thing is, the rounding errors created little sets of their own which looked like distorted Mandelbrot sets
18:44:09 <alise> were they fractal?
18:44:20 <ais523> yes, although not as detailed as the set itself
18:44:25 <ais523> eventually you ended up dividing by zero
18:45:55 <Phantom_Hoover> < pikhq> Microsoft Word: the worst program to design web pages in, and this *includes* Malbolge. ← you know how much I hated my school's computing course?
18:48:07 <ais523> I still maintain that MS Publisher is an /even worse/ program for designing web pages
18:49:04 <ais523> the markup is even less semantic than Word's (tables everywhere, even for simple text), the page is normally forced to a width different from that of your actual screen (Word doesn't do /that/), and it has a habit of randomly replacing text with images because it can't figure out how to render it as HTML
18:50:07 <alise> woot, cursor positioning works
18:52:00 <Vorpal> ais523, what is "MS Publisher"?
18:52:14 <Vorpal> ais523, I heard the name once or twice, but I have never seen it
18:52:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Python :/
18:52:17 <ais523> Vorpal: be glad that you don't know the answer
18:52:20 <alise> Vorpal: "horrible"
18:52:36 <Vorpal> alise, okay but what role is it intended to fill?
18:52:39 <Vorpal> that is all I'm asking
18:52:42 <alise> `addquote <Vorpal> ais523, what is "MS Publisher"? <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you don't want to know. <ais523> Vorpal: be glad that you don't know the answer <alise> Vorpal: "horrible"
18:52:42 <ais523> basically, you know when you open up a PDF in the GIMP or OpenOffice Draw or something like that?
18:52:59 <ais523> you get a bunch of maybe editable text, some images, all at exact locations on the page
18:53:06 <Vorpal> ais523, I opened pdf in inkscape, to edit some vector graphics
18:53:13 <ais523> inkscape will do fine as well
18:53:34 <ais523> now, you can open up printed documents like that, but it isn't too useful for actually understanding the document, agreed?
18:53:36 <alise> Vorpal: MS Publisher is a bunch of little Word documents arranged in absolutely-positioned boxes
18:53:39 <alise> with absolute sizes
18:53:44 <ais523> as in, you can copy-paste bits of text, but not much else
18:53:50 <ais523> MS Publisher is that in reverse
18:53:52 <HackEgo> 236|<Vorpal> ais523, what is "MS Publisher"? <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you don't want to know. <ais523> Vorpal: be glad that you don't know the answer <alise> Vorpal: "horrible"
18:53:58 <ais523> as in, actually constructing printed documents via this method
18:55:02 <ais523> (fun fact: I actually had a useful printed document I made this way in Publisher ages ago, but it was too hard to transfer from one laptop to another, and almost impossible to edit in Linux; nothing reads .pub files, and the .ps files it outputs are absolute abominations)
18:55:07 <Vorpal> ais523, um what? Opening up pdfs can be useful I found it useful to open up that thing in there, the vector graphics had too thin lines, so when included in a latex document (as "Figure 1: Diagram from simulation showing current over time" or something like that) the lines were invisible.
18:55:11 <ais523> (so I recreated it in Excel, which was actually easier despite it being a text document)
18:55:24 <ais523> Vorpal: I mean, that's an insane way to /create/ a PDF
18:55:47 <Vorpal> ais523, the simulation program could only print the result iirc, not save it as an image
18:55:48 <alise> ais523: i *think* your method of explaining has a few too many steps of brainpower required to interpret.
18:55:53 <alise> try using words of two syllables or less
18:56:09 <ais523> alise: were you forced to use Publisher at school?
18:56:11 <Vorpal> ais523, yes indeed insane way to create pdfs though
18:56:19 <ais523> I think I was, but can't remember, I suspect my brain has erased memories of it
18:56:24 <alise> ais523: yeah. i'm talking about for Vorpal though
18:57:07 <ais523> Vorpal: Adobe Reader always shows lines at least a pixel thick (maybe even at least 2 pixels), even if they're thinner
18:57:15 <Vorpal> ais523, wait, can't you edit the text directly in publisher?
18:57:17 <ais523> I know, because I made a PDF with zero-width lines by mistake
18:57:23 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, just as you can in an opened PDF
18:57:37 <ais523> it looked fine in Reader, but broken in Sumatra
18:57:38 <alise> "My old school used Publisher incestuously!"
18:57:42 <Vorpal> ais523, well, I'm not sure what caused it. I was using evince to view it, and it had to be scaled to fit into the latex figure
18:57:54 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I couldn't see the lines, and that trick worked perfectly
18:58:02 <alise> i like how Vorpal's just gone on to ignoring ais523's lines and relaying his anecdote instead
18:58:17 <Vorpal> alise, I did both at once
18:58:25 <Vorpal> alise, maybe you failed to keep up?
18:58:33 <ais523> alise: I'm semi-convinced that Vorpal permanently has his scrollbar a few lines from the bottom of the screen
18:58:39 <ais523> he seems to only say things said around 15-20 lines ago
18:58:42 <alise> ais523: or his brain just works *that* slowly
18:59:27 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I did get a bit lagged when writing that long line about inkscape, and I didn't bother to read the rest until I finished that line
19:00:21 <quintopia> what annoys me is people that fill up the screen with related lines they could have combined in a single message
19:00:34 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I think my theory's correct
19:00:36 <quintopia> i'd rather read a few long lines than a lot of short ones
19:00:38 <pikhq> alise: Y'know, I've got half a mind to extend Quod Libet to handle video.
19:00:41 <ais523> assuming that there wasn't a response yet, but will be soon
19:01:01 <Vorpal> ais523, response to what?
19:01:06 <alise> <Vorpal> quintopia, hm indeed <-- *you* do it all the time
19:01:08 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover's message
19:01:14 <ais523> it probably hasn't scrolled onto your screen yet
19:01:22 <Vorpal> ais523, oh that, I ignored it
19:01:22 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: well, i don't complain about it do I? I just sit silently and be annoyed.
19:01:37 <quintopia> I'm making this one exception to make my peeve known and shall not mention it again
19:01:42 <alise> ais523: hmm, my roguelike actually uses the characters to determine what objects are
19:01:47 <ais523> alise: I can't sensibly claim victory in this argument because my own argument was self-contradictory
19:01:49 <ais523> but it's still hilarious
19:01:49 <pikhq> Or at the very least write a video player that actually uses MKV metadata.
19:01:51 <alise> quintopia: people don't think of things all at once
19:01:55 <alise> also, it speeds up conversation
19:01:56 <Vorpal> alise, ooh, are you coding one?
19:02:04 <alise> Vorpal: yes, it's golfed
19:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, MY GOD, WHY AREN'T YOU EXACTLY FOLLOWING THE CONVERSATION
19:02:16 <alise> and played on an infinite plane filled with silly enemies and silly gold
19:02:18 <Vorpal> alise, cool, how extensive?
19:02:22 <alise> Vorpal: Umm... infinite
19:02:30 <quintopia> alise: speeding up conversation is exactly the part about it that annoys me. People should just be smart enough to have large gestalts
19:02:37 <Vorpal> alise, can you use the money for anything? Like shops?
19:02:41 <alise> quintopia: dude, this is IRC
19:02:46 <Vorpal> or would that take too much space?
19:02:57 <alise> it would be pretty boring if not
19:03:05 <alise> i'm not aiming for any absolute limit, just trimming down code wherever possible
19:03:07 <Vorpal> alise, and hm, is there any specific goal or does it just go on until you die?
19:03:08 <ais523> quintopia: what does "gestalt" mean in that context?
19:03:28 <Vorpal> alise, if the latter, the term "arcade rougelike" comes to my mind
19:03:33 <Vorpal> which seems rather silly
19:03:33 <alise> Vorpal: probably the latter
19:03:37 <alise> a victory condition would be too hard
19:03:39 <quintopia> ais523: the series of connective ideas from one thought to another
19:03:43 <alise> and require non-randomness of some sort
19:03:45 <Vorpal> alise, an arcadelike rougelike perhaps!
19:03:53 <alise> Vorpal: maybe after you get enough gold, you can go to a special boss level
19:04:43 <Vorpal> alise, not just teleporting straight away IMO. Would be better to spawn a teleporter or some stairs or something next to the player
19:04:51 * alise makes a ? tile which actually *is* undetermined right up until you hit it
19:05:00 <alise> Vorpal: yeah, there'd be like booths every now and then
19:05:03 <alise> with a quite low probability
19:05:05 <alise> that you'd have to go to
19:05:17 <alise> Vorpal: you know payphone booths?
19:05:28 <Vorpal> rather rare these days
19:05:33 <alise> Vorpal: it's a pay-TARDIS
19:05:37 <alise> they're common over here
19:05:45 <alise> Vorpal: yes: the portal to the boss is a pay-TARDIS
19:05:48 <alise> I can think of no better solution
19:05:49 <Vorpal> I haven't seen one for... 5 years or such?
19:06:03 <alise> open booth, bigger on the inside, insert coins :P
19:06:13 <alise> also has phone and internet
19:06:20 <Vorpal> alise, any leveling system?
19:06:42 <alise> How to weight probability: in your random selection, have more copies of one tile!
19:06:48 <Vorpal> alise, I feel it wouldn't be much of a rougelike without leveling and equipments and such
19:07:18 <Vorpal> alise, that is a reasonable way to do it yes
19:07:22 <alise> endwin() unfortunately erases the error message :P
19:07:34 <Vorpal> as long as you don't have something with like 1/1000th of the probability of the another thing
19:07:48 <alise> Vorpal: thankfully, i am far too lazy to have that
19:07:58 <alise> also, nobody would find it, the gameworld is too boring to explore _that_ long
19:08:16 <Vorpal> you still need those booth to be uncommon
19:08:41 <alise> Vorpal: hmm, in my test version i have some code i didn't change when the floor tile became space, not ., and it leaves a trail of .s behind you when you walk
19:08:43 <Vorpal> alise, as for crashing, hm... it managed to run endwin() after it crashed?
19:08:44 <alise> i think i might make that an item
19:09:00 <Vorpal> alise, oh like "red yarn" or something?
19:09:01 <alise> World's Largest Ball of Twine
19:09:36 <Vorpal> alise, a bit annoying if you don't move in a mostly straight or curving line
19:09:46 <alise> Vorpal: not really, it just helps you find where you went
19:09:54 <alise> which is useful if you're looking for that booth you saw seven screens ago
19:10:10 <Vorpal> alise, not if you criss crossed your path a lot before maybe hm
19:10:25 <alise> well, can't have everything.
19:10:35 <Vorpal> alise, you plan to use fixed screens? Not centering on the player all the time?
19:11:13 <alise> you can move around your centre area, but then it scrolls outside it
19:11:23 <alise> so it scrolls around just fine, but doesn't give you a headache (I'm looking at you, Crawl)
19:11:45 <Vorpal> alise, I find "always-centered-on-player" isn't too bad
19:11:59 <alise> remove the +n and -n if you want that :P
19:12:09 <Vorpal> alise, as long as you can see what you are moving to wards
19:12:34 <alise> the whole field is visible at all times
19:12:40 <Vorpal> alise, which language?
19:12:48 <alise> because, unlike NetHack, there is light, and you are not hideously short-sighted
19:12:50 <alise> Vorpal: python. meh.
19:13:11 <Vorpal> alise, that explains those "not very golf-y newlines" at least
19:13:32 <alise> len(';') == len('\n')
19:13:44 <alise> the indentation has an effect, but i can't avoid that
19:13:52 <alise> because it's an if
19:13:54 <alise> so a block structure
19:13:58 <alise> so i can't just do ; and more of them
19:14:05 <alise> first line of that function:
19:14:07 <alise> global x,y,X,Y;w[y,x]=46;x,y=a,b;w[y,x]=64
19:14:12 <Vorpal> alise, um you can, but not sure it helps that much. Remember that irc bot in python with just lambda?
19:15:25 <alise> to move away from there
19:15:40 <alise> T=' $$$$$%%%!' ;; I can't actually use this, it has to be charcodes, so:
19:15:41 <alise> T=[32]*10+[36]*5+[37]*3+[33]
19:16:01 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
19:16:11 <alise> Vorpal: [x]*n = [x,x,x,x...] n of them
19:16:18 <alise> [...]+[...] = [...,...]
19:17:06 <Vorpal> alise, also I assume the player is @ in the best of traditions? What about giving it a completely useless pet. Wait I'm detecting feature creep.
19:17:29 <alise> Vorpal: hmm, those weightings are a little off.
19:17:45 <alise> Vorpal: http://imgur.com/JTySy.png
19:17:47 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, nethack pets... just die a lot. When playing val I find it just gets in the way.
19:17:53 <Vorpal> for wiz it makes sense but...
19:17:57 <alise> they are very useful in sokoban.
19:18:08 <alise> (note: i have done that exactly once)
19:18:10 <alise> i had like four pets
19:18:13 <alise> all gained in sokoban
19:18:16 <Vorpal> alise, for curse testing?
19:18:20 <alise> the room at the end
19:18:25 <alise> i just let my four pets fight them all
19:18:27 <alise> didn't get a scratch
19:18:30 <alise> Vorpal: no, the monsters inside
19:18:32 <Vorpal> aren't the monsters all asleep
19:18:41 <Vorpal> or didn't you have stealth?
19:18:53 <alise> it's the harder version of the level, btw
19:19:21 <alise> Vorpal: but a monster got spawned on the Elbereth
19:19:23 <Vorpal> alise, pets near the end of game can be useful. I mean, tame archeon? Or tame ki-rin (probably only reasonable for knights)
19:19:27 <alise> and a werecreature stole it, I think
19:19:31 <alise> it certainly wasn't there
19:19:57 <alise> lol even changing the space weighting to 100 doesn't work
19:20:23 <Vorpal> alise, lucky you didn't do the expanded array thing then
19:20:36 <alise> T=[32]*1000+[36]*5+[37]*3+[33]
19:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a way in Coq of bundling theorems together given some axioms?
19:21:07 <Vorpal> what did you say that the ! was?
19:21:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes
19:21:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: modules, "Parameter"
19:21:22 <alise> or was it sections? I forget
19:21:24 <alise> Vorpal: I didn't -- potion.
19:21:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. you have some object Group which gives lots of goodies when passed the group, composition and axioms.
19:21:39 <Vorpal> alise, and $ is gold I presume... % is food?
19:21:58 <alise> the hp potion will most likely just incr an internal hp potion counter by something random
19:22:05 <Vorpal> alise, what weapons will be available?
19:22:13 <alise> and then quaffing a potion will heal min(sum, 15) or whatever
19:22:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Sections would seem to do it, but I don't know how they actually work.
19:22:20 <alise> Vorpal: your fists
19:22:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: see manual ;)
19:22:46 <alise> Vorpal: you could also think of it as a sword
19:22:51 <Vorpal> not really a rougelike without the equipment system
19:23:22 <alise> Vorpal: dude, it's close enough!
19:25:24 <alise> Vorpal: i don't even have walls
19:25:28 <alise> although i might add them.
19:26:40 <Vorpal> alise, need them for boss and booth at least
19:26:55 <alise> the booth will actually just be a single character.
19:27:04 <Vorpal> alise, yes but larger on the inside you said?
19:27:09 <alise> that's a TARDIS joke.
19:27:17 <alise> the effect of it being a pay-teleport will be conveyed entirely through one line of message :P
19:27:20 <Vorpal> but I thought that you would show it on screen
19:27:35 <Vorpal> alise, randomly placing walls would be silly, because sooner or later you would then run into a barrier you couldn't pass.
19:27:47 <alise> "You insert your gold into the slot. ... The door opens! --More--"
19:27:56 <alise> "Wow -- it's bigger on the inside! You see a big, shiny button. --More--"
19:27:57 <Vorpal> given perfect randomness and so on
19:28:02 <alise> "You press the button... --More--"
19:28:12 <alise> "Suddenly, you find yourself in a barren desert, with this evil guy."
19:28:24 <alise> Vorpal: so go in another direction :P
19:28:45 <alise> Vorpal: also, "technically", you could end up surrounded entirely by monsters
19:28:47 <Vorpal> alise, well sooner or later you will run into a wall that surrounds you
19:28:51 <alise> or there could never be a booth generated, ever
19:28:54 <alise> Vorpal: no, you won't
19:28:58 <alise> that's not even *close* to remotely probable
19:29:05 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can embed the hyperbolic plain into a terminal sensibly-ish.
19:29:05 <Vorpal> not probably at all indeed
19:29:17 <Vorpal> but sooner or later it will happen, given an infinite plane
19:29:23 <Vorpal> unless I'm completely wrong
19:29:45 <Vorpal> and perfect randomness of course
19:29:46 <alise> the probability approaches 1.
19:29:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes it would
19:29:56 <alise> however, you do not have time to play that long
19:30:02 <alise> given, say, the predicted age of the universe.
19:30:11 <Vorpal> I never claimed it was likely
19:30:23 <Vorpal> alise, getting surrounded by walls at the start is more probable
19:30:35 <Vorpal> I mean, that is just 8 tiles
19:30:42 <alise> that's still hideously improbable :P
19:30:45 <alise> considering the low probability of walls
19:30:49 <Vorpal> than running into it at some distance
19:31:04 <Vorpal> alise, indeed, getting two wall segments next to each other would be low
19:31:10 <Vorpal> unless you try to deal with that
19:31:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "small"
19:31:27 <Vorpal> alise, oh also: with walls you need LOS calculations
19:31:33 <alise> i will likely generate them separately or not at all
19:31:59 <alise> T=[32]*1000+[36]*5+[37]*3+[35]*3+[33]
19:32:03 <alise> except more likely than that, probably
19:32:14 <alise> Vorpal: or you have x-ray vision
19:33:03 <Vorpal> alise, I prefer the dungeon to be filled with strange cubes made of breakproof glass :P
19:35:00 <cpressey> "Note that if the attribute is found through the normal mechanism, __getattr__() is not called." <-- I love how this leaves what "the normal mechanism" is, up to the imagination.
19:35:26 * cpressey pulls a normal mechanism out of his pocket
19:35:32 * alise decides to have a dividing line before the status line
19:35:34 <alise> otherwise it's too confusing
19:36:23 <Vorpal> cpressey, I detect python naming there
19:36:38 <Vorpal> __slots__, __init__ and so on
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19:41:59 <cpressey> Vorpal: what else would I be carping about?
19:42:13 <alise> Vorpal: does banging into a wall in nethack affect the turns?
19:42:15 <alise> it doesn't, does it
19:43:08 <Vorpal> alise, you mean, if you advance a turn if you try to walk into a wall?
19:43:12 <ais523> alise: it erodes engravings, but has no other effect
19:43:16 <ais523> the erosion on engravings is probably a bug
19:43:20 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think I ever tried XD
19:43:29 <ais523> but is exploited to great effect by people reverse-engineering the RNG
19:43:40 <ais523> as it advances the RNG seed
19:44:55 <Vorpal> listened to an interview on radio with a professor in discrete math. Quite unusual.
19:45:50 <Vorpal> ais523, err, how could you know the seed
19:46:02 <ais523> Vorpal: well, it's seeded with the current date and time, right?
19:46:09 <alise> Vorpal: I have no message line, woo
19:46:17 <ais523> besides, seeds follow a pattern, set off enough random events and you can figure out where in the pattern you are
19:46:33 <ais523> someone made a bunch of rainbow tables, they had to change the RNG to reseed from /dev/random in order to block that on NAO
19:46:41 <Vorpal> ais523, is it time() or gettimeofday() ?
19:46:49 <Vorpal> I mean, the former you couldn't probably manage to figure out
19:47:02 <Vorpal> the latter has way too high res for you to figure out when it ran without a debugger
19:47:14 <ais523> Vorpal: the former, and you can get it within a few seconds pretty easily
19:47:31 <ais523> and within a second allowing for network lag and clock skew, which you can manage by seeing what happened with your failed attempts
19:48:05 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway how easy would it be to figure out the seed if it started off from /dev/random? I mean, you could probably still figure it out with a table
19:48:12 <Vorpal> looking up start sequences
19:48:14 <ais523> Vorpal: as I said, it was rainbow-tabled
19:48:32 <ais523> so on NAO, it reseeds from /dev/random every now and then, paxed's keeping the exact interval secret
19:48:49 <ais523> on /dev/null, it uses a cryptographically secure RNG seeded from /dev/random
19:49:14 <ais523> there's even a bunch of tables for doing AES quickly
19:49:44 <Vorpal> ais523, /dev/random is a bit iffy though, compared to /dev/urandom. It would get stuck quickly quite easily if many people start games at the same time
19:49:55 <cpressey> rainbow tables! man, i love that game
19:49:59 <ais523> agreed, probably /dev/urandom
19:50:09 <ais523> apparently using /dev/urandom directly was too slow
19:50:13 <cpressey> Vorpal: you know. rainbow tables!
19:50:22 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes, I know what they are. But "game"?
19:50:43 <cpressey> better than musical chairs even!
19:50:46 <Vorpal> I thought cpressey meant a game called "rainbow tables"
19:50:57 <alise> Okayyy, my M function is fucked up.
19:51:06 <Vorpal> alise, what does M do?
19:51:13 <alise> and updates everything :P
19:58:07 <alise> def Q(x):s.move(23,0);s.insertln();s.addstr(23,0,x);s.getkey()
19:58:12 <pikhq> alise: Why does everything suck?
19:59:09 <cpressey> class object: def __suck__(self): return True
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20:04:05 <alise> ais523: L+=int(not randint(0,3)and randint(5,10))
20:04:19 <ais523> is that a bitwise and?
20:04:52 <ais523> as in, it returns the right argument only if the left is 0
20:05:03 <alise> and int(True)=1, int(False)=0
20:05:05 <ais523> in that case I don't get the not
20:05:13 <alise> ais523: i'll elaborate on the logic:
20:05:21 <alise> "1/3 chance: increase HP by random in range 5 to 10"
20:06:11 <ais523> oh, and most of the time nothing happens
20:07:13 <alise> but it should be 13
20:09:21 <alise> that's some hunger
20:11:10 <alise> ais523: hunger increases properly unless i hold down for a while
20:11:19 <alise> in which case it stops increasing, then goes to something random when i move in a different direction
20:12:47 <alise> Vorpal: want to see the WIP version?
20:12:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: everyone: you too
20:13:36 <alise> ais523: HOW could hunger possibly go down like that?!
20:14:00 <ais523> I take it you're not mixing longjmp and autos, either
20:14:14 <ais523> in which case, the random number is probably significant, you should figure out what it's referring to
20:14:16 <alise> ais523: in Python?
20:14:21 <alise> also, it's not random
20:14:23 <alise> it actually decreases
20:14:36 <ais523> have you used the wrong variable name somewhere?
20:14:39 <alise> now it's mysteriously gained another digit
20:14:47 <alise> s.addstr(22,0,'_'*80);C('$:%-17s T:%-17s H:%-17s HP:%-3s (%s)'%(G,N,H,L,P));s.move(y-Y+11,x-X+40)
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20:15:47 <alise> and no, there is nowhere else I change these values...
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20:16:08 <alise> that 8xx thing behaves like 1xx
20:16:14 <alise> because 900 made me die
20:16:47 <pikhq> That's really annoying. Really really annoying. All the rips of Monty Python's Flying Circus out there are from the NTSC DVDs.
20:18:00 * alise decides to make hunger actually be satiation
20:18:30 <pikhq> WHY WOULD I WANT NTSC VERSIONS OF A PAL BROADCAST?
20:20:10 <alise> ais523: I swear, this is *utterly* inscrutable to me.
20:20:15 <alise> pikhq: Wanna debug my golfed Roguelike?!?!?!?!?!
20:22:24 <pikhq> But, I can find from-PAL rips of the *movies*.
20:22:34 <pikhq> Y'know, the ones that are 24 fps.
20:22:56 <pikhq> (and that I could de-telecine from the NTSC source)
20:24:00 <pikhq> Why do I have to be pickier than everyone who does encodes for torrents?
20:24:02 <alise> I swear, it's like key repeat does nothing to this.
20:25:07 <pikhq> I may have to purchase the series from amazon.co.uk just to not be irritated.
20:26:07 <ais523> wait... you torrent TV programs, but buy them if the torrents are in the wrong format?
20:26:29 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out a code of laziness/ethics/piracy that would cause that to be your typicla behaviour
20:27:05 <pikhq> ais523: Actually, I torrent them, but then get irritated at the low quality of the torrents, and I am now being irritated.
20:27:06 <alise> ais523: "Piracy is not wrong, and I am a perfectionist."
20:27:15 <pikhq> Also, what alise said.
20:27:15 <alise> This is ... pretty much also my position.
20:27:47 <pikhq> Well, in *this* case, I made the DVD rips from roommate's box set, and am now being irritated that it wasn't in PAL.
20:28:58 <pikhq> Also: seriously, if I had the hard drive space to make it practical, I'd just be storing remuxes of the DVD.
20:30:05 <pikhq> As it is, 1.2 Mbps h264 & source audio works.
20:32:01 <alise> pikhq: Please figure out why Python is ignoring physics.
20:32:14 <cpressey> pikhq: btw, how do you pronounce your nick? because i tried last night and what came out sounded really awful.
20:32:54 <pikhq> cpressey: Peek aitch kyuu
20:32:54 <ais523> I mentally pronounce it as in pik HQ
20:32:55 <cpressey> in case you care, i found your hs bf compiler i had saved to my flash drive, and i said to myself, "oh yeah that's pikhq's"
20:33:03 <olsner> I usually just stop reading after "pik"
20:33:40 <olsner> alise: probably because guido doesn't understand it?
20:33:43 <cpressey> pikhq: oh! is it... supposed to sound similar to "Pikachu"? i'm surprised i never noticed
20:34:01 <pikhq> cpressey: I was 8 and fond of Pokémon.
20:34:17 <alise> I pronounce it "pikhq"
20:34:22 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: want to see the WIP version? <-- sure
20:34:24 <alise> Let me tell you, pronouncing "khq" is a BITCH.
20:34:35 <pikhq> alise: I demand some IPA.
20:35:02 <alise> "pi" as the start of pikachu; ktch-kyu but don't pronounce the u
20:35:18 <olsner> Your GStreamer installation is missing a plug-in. | Your GStreamer installation is missing a plug-in. | Internal data flow error. | Your GStreamer installation is missing a plug-in. | Your GStreamer installation is missing a plug-in. | Internal data flow error.
20:35:23 <alise> Vorpal: As soon as I get quaffing working :P
20:35:26 <alise> Vorpal: No max HP hooray
20:36:29 <olsner> grr, music players on linux worked much better before gstreamer
20:36:36 <pikhq> I also need to go through my anime collection and get rid of all the hardsub'd stuff.
20:36:47 <pikhq> Hardsubs anger me.
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20:42:33 <alise> WHY DOES THIS NOT FURK
20:43:25 <ais523> alise: pastebin it somewhere, I'm interested now
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20:44:00 <alise> def C(x):s.insstr(23,0,' '*80);s.addstr(23,0,x);s.redrawwin();s.refresh()
20:44:03 <alise> this inexplicably fixes everything
20:44:05 <alise> (the redraw lines)
20:44:24 <alise> ais523: http://pastie.org/1201439.txt?key=fo9d7wsmz1xh8b6gwnkbvg
20:44:30 <alise> remove ";s.redrawwin();s.refresh()"
20:44:42 <alise> things that fail: get a ! (potion), q(uaff) it, doesn't show until next turn
20:44:43 <ais523> oh, I wasn't planning to run it
20:44:57 <alise> hold down j (only j works, I have no idea why), watch turn and satiation counters not change after a while
20:45:00 <alise> move in another direction
20:45:07 <alise> ais523: it's perfectly innocuous...
20:45:19 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: No max HP hooray <-- heh
20:46:47 <Vorpal> it isn't much of a rougelike without that :(
20:46:56 <ais523> alise: does anything else on your botl update?
20:47:00 <alise> Vorpal: oh eff of, it's going to be like 150 lines *with* the boss
20:47:03 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's an issue with the cursor position
20:47:07 <alise> alise: $ when you get $
20:47:12 <Vorpal> alise, what do you call it?
20:47:42 <Vorpal> alise, ah I need to make a Vagrant'ELM then (Extended Levels and Magic) ;)
20:48:15 <Vorpal> probably won't do it though, not enough motivation
20:49:15 <Vorpal> it seems I more and more prefer thinking about programming than actually programming. Not just the theoretical parts, but also sometimes the implementation details
20:49:23 <alise> ais523: if you actually figure it out, do enlighten me :P
20:49:26 <Vorpal> if only someone invented a serialization interface for the brain
20:49:56 <ais523> so N and S don't change, but G does?
20:50:19 <Vorpal> I mean, I thought about brainfuck optimisation quite a bit recently, and thought of some interesting things, but meh, can't be bothered to code all the analysis needed for it.
20:50:30 <Vorpal> mostly ways to optimise unbalanced loops
20:50:53 <Vorpal> require quite a lot of graph operations to figure out invariants and such
20:52:51 <alise> ais523: N and S change, yes.
20:52:53 <alise> all of them change
20:52:57 <alise> at different times
20:53:02 <alise> N and S change in lockstep except when you eat
20:53:02 <ais523> I mean, when holding down k
20:53:07 <ais523> rather than in general
20:53:12 <alise> ais523: N and S change but not G unless you run into anything.
20:53:18 <alise> any $s, in particular
20:53:24 <alise> P would change if you run into a potion
20:53:26 <alise> but this happens on open space
20:53:28 <ais523> when holding down j and N and S become bugged, does G also change?
20:53:34 <ais523> when you hit a $ at random?
20:53:37 <alise> and somehow, *not redrawing* causes the variables to change state permanently(?!?!?!)
20:53:48 <alise> ais523: i'm not sure, it's never happened to me
20:53:53 <Vorpal> alise, argh not vimkeys
20:54:21 <ais523> Vorpal: I assumed you'd use vikeys for roguelikes...
20:54:27 <cpressey> numpad controls + laptop = argh
20:54:33 <alise> no, he is allergic to vikeys
20:54:35 <ais523> cpressey: that's why I learnt vikeys initially
20:54:38 <alise> and religiously insists on numpad
20:57:28 <cpressey> Python would be just that much less obnoxious if only it had 'isa' and 'has' and 'can'
21:00:34 <pikhq> alise: Imagine the storage space that could be had if we brought back 5¼" hard drives.
21:01:21 <cpressey> pikhq: I touched one once! It was already dead, alas.
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21:04:58 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_%28programming_language%29
21:08:05 <cpressey> I need a language where tokenization happens on case-change boundaries
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21:09:12 <fizzie> I think there's a 40 MB 5.25" IDE HD in my closet. Imagine the storage space.
21:09:42 <pikhq> A modern 5¼" drive. Imagine what could be.
21:10:18 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, it's split to a 32 MB and 8 MB FAT partitions, because DOS ~3.2 didn't support such hugeness.
21:13:19 <ais523> alise: when you get back, I can't see what's causing the error, but am confused about scopes; why is there a "global" in M but not D?
21:14:32 <cpressey> wait, that should be: swapDIVprint
21:17:57 <cpressey> i should totally write a utility that just fills my terminal with randomly coloured solid squares.
21:18:02 <cpressey> i would actually find this useful
21:18:36 <cpressey> my poorman's version is ls -la with dir colourization active
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21:19:53 <cpressey> irssi threw "status access violation" or something
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21:25:13 <ais523> cpressey: why do you want a utility to do that?
21:25:14 <Phantom_Hoover> To beat a dead horse some more, aren't groups and monads the same kind of thing?
21:25:16 <ais523> it shouldn't be too hard...
21:25:57 <cpressey> ais523: To easily see when I've reached the top of the output of the last command I issued when I browse the scrollback.
21:26:23 <cpressey> Running 'rainbow vomit' or such would be much cooler, though.
21:27:33 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Same kind of thing? Sure.
21:28:02 <cpressey> We have this thing, and this other thing, and they do stuff.
21:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. a group is a set G, a function . : G×G→G and the conditions of identity, inversion and associativity.
21:29:42 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: I assumed you'd use vikeys for roguelikes... <-- this is not the first time you told me that
21:29:46 <Vorpal> and I told you I do not
21:30:01 <Vorpal> ais523, it is like the 7th time over the past few years
21:30:48 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Python would be just that much less obnoxious if only it had 'isa' and 'has' and 'can' <--- like... "import foo" → "can has foo"?
21:31:02 <Phantom_Hoover> A monad is a functor m, functions unit and join and the monad laws.
21:31:24 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: A group is a tool for studying symmetry mathematically.
21:33:25 <alise> ais523: you only need global to assign
21:33:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I think the category-theoretical definition of monads involves wrapping around data.
21:33:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not really.
21:33:56 <ais523> alise: are you sure? does it not form a closure without?
21:34:15 <alise> ais523: not if you do +=
21:34:15 <cpressey> Vorpal: not exactly what I had in mind
21:34:18 <alise> works if you do =, just forms a closure
21:34:21 <alise> but if you do += it fails
21:34:27 <alise> because it expands to
21:34:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, I suspected as much
21:34:30 <alise> and x isn't definef
21:34:33 <alise> because you're defining it
21:34:38 <alise> so it must be part of the new scope, not globals
21:34:47 <cpressey> all hail the simplicity of unscopedness
21:34:51 <ais523> alise: I mean, if you use a variable inside a definition, don't you read the value it had when the definition was defined?
21:34:52 <Vorpal> cpressey, hovering I just couldnt resist joking about that horrible lolcode
21:35:05 <alise> ais523: let's put it this way
21:35:14 <alise> -------------------
21:35:30 <ais523> what sort of scoping is that?
21:35:43 <alise> because it sees that x is defined somewhere, yet you use it before it's defined!
21:35:47 <alise> ais523: no, that scoping is okay
21:35:51 <alise> the second one doesn't modify the global
21:35:58 <alise> it creates a local
21:36:01 <ais523> the second one looks like some sort of scope-by-reference
21:36:09 <alise> it doesn't mutate global x
21:36:13 <Vorpal> the third one is the real issue
21:36:14 <alise> i already said that
21:36:33 <ais523> I'm asking about x=3; def f(): return x; x=9; print f()
21:36:38 <ais523> which isn't a case you've suggested so far
21:36:49 <ais523> that's what I was bletching at
21:37:28 <ais523> hmm, I suppose it's using lexical scoping there
21:37:43 <alise> you need to show f's grouping
21:37:57 <alise> print f() => prints 9
21:37:59 * Vorpal throws a hail storm at cpressey
21:38:02 <alise> that's what everything does
21:38:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't Haskell allow you to define monads that don't even obey the monad laws.
21:38:25 <Vorpal> English isn't even consistent about *which* words it writes as one
21:38:25 <ais523> so here, x in f() means "the current value of the variable x that exists in the scope where f was defined"
21:38:41 <ais523> I think that's lexical scoping
21:38:54 <alise> ais523: there, yes
21:38:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes
21:39:12 <Vorpal> ais523, can you explain this in English: "hailstorm" but "car engine", why not "hail storm" or "carengine"
21:39:31 <ais523> Vorpal: historical accident
21:39:37 <ais523> although "hail storm" is also correct
21:39:50 <Vorpal> ais523, is there any pattern to when words are written together and when they aren't?
21:39:50 <cpressey> although "hail stone" might not be
21:40:05 <ais523> Vorpal: not that I know of
21:40:19 <alise> Vorpal: Swedish isn't totally consistent either so shaddup
21:40:32 <Vorpal> alise, a lot more though, also any specific examples?
21:41:27 <Vorpal> ais523, and you imported the word "gravad lax" from Swedish (much like you did with smörgåsbord), except you turned it into "gravadlax" iirc. Since usually it is English who writes as separate words it doesn't make much sense XD. (Also it is completely logically that it should be two words in Swedish)
21:41:28 <alise> Vorpal: i don't know swedish, but i know for a fact it isn't totally consistent.
21:41:34 <Vorpal> (if anyone cares I could explain why)
21:41:42 <alise> i also know that if anyone used it as much as english, it would be just as inconsistent
21:42:00 <Vorpal> alise, correct, we have other issues, you have easy rules for when to use "a" and when to use "an", we have en/ett and no easy rules for when to use which
21:42:36 <alise> ais523: I simply have no idea how that code could possibly cause the number of turns to decrease, ever.
21:42:54 <Vorpal> alise, I was just looking for a pattern in this specific issue, I did not claim Swedish was consistent in general of course. Such a claim would be absurd. Where did you get that from?
21:43:33 <alise> i'm just saying stop acting like it's strange that english is so abhorrently inconsistent
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21:43:52 <Vorpal> I did not. I was just wondering about a specific issue
21:44:04 <cpressey> a language doesn't travel halfway across the globe without picking up a few venereal diseases
21:44:06 <Vorpal> alise,, maybe you should try to base your attacks on something more substantial than thin air next time
21:44:25 <alise> Vorpal: you often complain about english.
21:44:29 <alise> it is really irritating and boring.
21:44:36 <Vorpal> cpressey, my interest in this was simply finding a better way to figure out than checking if aspell accepts the written together form
21:44:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: The pattern is this: English does compound words with spaces between the components. Things that don't do this are exceptions.
21:44:55 <Vorpal> alise, don't generalise. I didn't do it in this case.
21:45:04 <Vorpal> alise, so yeah your attack was based on thin air
21:45:13 <pikhq> And also: always-adding-spaces is also correct.
21:45:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, like "hail stone"?
21:45:26 <alise> pikhq: Correct but inidiomatic.
21:45:31 <pikhq> Perfectly correct.
21:45:33 <alise> And with English, really, only idiomatic matters.
21:45:49 <alise> a hailstone isn't a type of stone
21:45:53 <alise> it's just a hailstone
21:45:57 <alise> whereas a hail storm is a storm of hail
21:46:01 <pikhq> alise: It doesn't get noticed at all as unidiomatic. And in fact I'd write it as "hail stone", likely.
21:46:03 <cpressey> well, i will certainly know what you mean if you say "a hail stone hit me in the forehead"
21:46:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about "arrow head" then?
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21:46:41 <Vorpal> alise, nice, what sort of monsters?
21:46:41 <cpressey> germanic vs latinate steel cage match
21:46:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: I'd write that as "arrowhead".
21:46:54 <Vorpal> cpressey, correction: "fore head" :P
21:46:56 <alise> Monsters that only start moving when you walk into their view: realistic!
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21:47:03 <pikhq> Don't think "arrow head" is wrong, though.
21:47:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, same, but would "arrow head" be correct?
21:47:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: "fore head" screams "wrong" though.
21:47:29 <cpressey> "arrow head" has amusing connotations to me. like it's an unusual part of an arrow.
21:47:44 <pikhq> I'm parsing "fore" as a morpheme but not an individual word.
21:47:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah, which shows that the "spaces is always correct" rule suddenly breaks down :P
21:48:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, you have fore and aft hm
21:48:18 <alise> Hmm, what should monsters look like.
21:48:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: English orthography is hard, mmkay?
21:48:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, that should be "stearing side", iirc that is the history of the term
21:48:42 <alise> Q. Q is a good monster colour.
21:48:44 <Vorpal> comes from scandinavian langauges iirc
21:49:08 <Vorpal> it's "styrbord" in Swedish, which is a lot closer to making sense in the modern form
21:49:24 <Vorpal> like starboard which changed so much that it doesn't make immediate sense any more
21:49:49 <cpressey> well, i hasten to point out that there is no "steering side" on a modern ship either
21:49:59 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Large_Hailstons_in_Leipzig_Jun06.jpg
21:50:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, "The origin of the term starboard comes from early boating practices. Before ships had rudders on their centerlines, they were steered by use of a specialized steering oar. This oar was held by an oarsman located in the stern (back) of the ship. However, like most of society, there were many more right-handed sailors than left-handed sailors. This meant that the steering oar (which had been broadened to provide better control) used to
21:50:05 <Vorpal> be affixed to the right side of the ship."
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21:50:22 <alise> I don't want to store health for every single monster... Hmm.
21:50:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, not on modern ones, but surely you have seen viking ships on TV and museums and such?
21:50:47 <Vorpal> or maybe not over there
21:50:50 <ais523> alise: make hitting the monster kill it outright with small probability, do nothing otherwise?
21:51:00 <ais523> so the more you pound on any given monster, the more likely it is to die in that time?
21:51:05 <alise> ais523: Stupid interpretation of US law ahoy: "if corporations are people, and slavery is the trade/exchange/purchase/sale of people, and the stock market is the trade/exchange/purchase/sale of corporations. Then in effect, the Stock Market is a slave Market."
21:51:16 <alise> Because the law literally says "CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE"
21:51:19 <alise> And this is why corporations get jobs!
21:51:21 <alise> ais523: no, he's *serious*
21:51:26 <alise> ("The Citizens United ruling either needs to be overturned or the Stock Market needs to be eliminated for violating the Constitution...")
21:51:49 <ais523> the difference is that the word "owning" has a different meaning wrt corporations, and wrt natural persons, to some extent
21:51:55 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:52:01 <ais523> still, if you can control a person's actions via voting at them, isn't that slavery in some respects?
21:52:04 <cpressey> he did put it in terms of 'if then'
21:52:23 <ais523> you know, I think that argument might technically be legally correct with a literal meaning
21:52:29 <Vorpal> <alise> ais523: no, he's *serious* <-- who?
21:52:43 <alise> ais523: yes, but no law says "corporations are people"
21:52:48 <alise> just "corporations have these rights, yada yada yada"
21:53:03 <ais523> I thought there was a law defining corporations as "persons"
21:53:05 <cpressey> the concept is "corporate personhood"
21:53:07 <ais523> (stupid legal plurals...)
21:53:10 <alise> if not randint(0,14):
21:53:10 <alise> Q('Euuch! That must have been poisoned...',1);L-=randint(15,20)
21:53:13 <alise> food is a bitch in this game
21:53:16 <cpressey> that corporations have all the same rights as people
21:53:26 <alise> cpressey: not all, IIRC
21:53:40 <cpressey> alise: the concept. not the reality
21:53:40 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/dn3b9/can_we_make_this_happen_redditor_suggests/c11fnbm
21:53:47 <alise> ^ from someone who actually knows it :P
21:53:56 <alise> "While I disagree violently with the ruling, and I think it sets a dangerous precedent in law and allows a destabilizing financial force to enter our political process, the OP's remarks above have no basis in law or reality and would certainly have no power to convince a jury to repeal this verdict."
21:54:34 <alise> ais523: a while back, I had a bit of crisis, in that I oppose corporate personhood but supported agoran partnerships
21:54:37 <alise> ais523: then I realised IT'S A GAME
21:54:54 <ais523> agoran partnerships are clearly a bad idea if you're trying to build a fair democracy
21:55:06 <ais523> good thing that that isn't the goal at Agora, or it would be a very boring game
21:56:49 <ais523> in fact, I think you can oppose corporate personhood and support agoran partnerships for the same reasons
21:56:55 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yes, and has been done before now
21:56:59 <ais523> but I doubt it would be all that interesting
21:57:26 <ais523> one of them changed precedences at random, IIRC
21:57:32 <ais523> as in, it was a rule fragment that made the rule defer to other rules
21:58:20 <Vorpal> ais523, how would it spread?
21:58:40 <ais523> I think it wasn't a truly independent virus, but rather was spread by a separate rule
21:59:01 <Vorpal> ais523, how would a truly independent one work?
21:59:12 <ais523> it'd contain the code for replicating itself
21:59:17 <alise> pikhq: what is it with crazy Americans and not wanting to pay income tax?
21:59:23 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: no, as in any rule can in theory be changed via a 3:1 majority
21:59:51 <Vorpal> ais523, couldn't that be changed to require a 4:1 ?
22:00:10 <ais523> you could change the rules to make them truly immutable, although such a change would be unlikely to pass
22:00:11 <alise> ais523: hmm, even the fountain?
22:00:34 <alise> just use a power=3 rule to kill it
22:00:36 <ais523> alise: the fountain can legally be changed at AI 3; most people would think it very bad form to change it at an AI less than 4, though
22:00:50 <ais523> and many people think it should only be changed via scam
22:00:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Agoran Intelligence?
22:01:00 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the higher the AI, the harder it is for a proposal to pass, but the more it can if it does pass
22:01:05 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:01:13 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: and of course not, they change frequently in fact
22:01:19 <Vorpal> ais523, what does AI stand for?
22:01:38 -!- augur has joined.
22:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, so can the 3:1 rule be disabled and then a permanent rule introduced?
22:01:42 <ais523> anyway, 3 is enough to change anything, but by convention some things need more (and people vote against otherwise)
22:01:46 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: of course
22:01:52 <ais523> other rules need to be disabled too to make a permanent rule
22:01:59 <ais523> such as the one that says permanent rules are disallowed
22:02:05 <ais523> and no, because permanent rules are a stupid idea
22:02:17 <ais523> as the whole point of a nomic is to not have permanent rules
22:02:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: the 3:1 rule is just the proposal-passing rule.
22:02:24 <ais523> even that's a bad idea
22:02:35 <ais523> why would you even want a permanent viral rule?
22:02:38 <Phantom_Hoover> A single rule which says only "this rule is immutable".
22:02:51 <ais523> even that would be bad form IMO
22:02:58 <ais523> if you want a permanent trophy, make it too cool to repeal
22:03:15 <ais523> as in, people will never vote to repeal it
22:03:17 <Vorpal> ais523, such as the fountain?
22:03:20 -!- impomatic has joined.
22:03:30 <Vorpal> ais523, wasn't there a whale too?
22:03:34 <ais523> rule 104's never been changed, and as a result, most players will refuse to vote for changes to it
22:03:42 <ais523> especially as there's no reason to change or repeal it
22:04:08 <Vorpal> ais523, http://www.agoranomic.org/ <-- wait, did they redesign that page
22:04:10 <ais523> that one's was explicitly intended for people to scam their way into, eventually, but it lasted longer than expected
22:04:14 <Vorpal> the agora nomic website that is
22:04:20 <alise> Vorpal: ais523 rewrote it, now it's unreadable
22:04:28 <alise> (because of the silly two columns)
22:04:29 <ais523> and alise has gone all crazy about inability to read the page
22:04:37 <ais523> alise: if a page is in two columns and one is ads, is it unreadable?
22:04:52 <Vorpal> alise, why would two columns be unreadable
22:04:52 <alise> ais523: you'd fill a whole column with ads?
22:04:56 <Vorpal> wikipedia main page uses that
22:04:58 <ais523> alise: I've seen it done
22:05:01 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:05:08 <alise> also, I try and keep a policy of not talking to anyone who takes disagreement as "going all crazy"
22:05:09 <Vorpal> w3c uses 3 columns iirc
22:05:24 <ais523> but if you can filter out ads from a second column, why not text?
22:05:29 <alise> Vorpal: w3c uses three columns, of which one is content and the other two is navigation
22:05:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Agora would seem an interesting thing to do, but I suspect it'd require a large investment of time and effort...
22:05:43 <Vorpal> alise, anyway why is two columns of text wrong?
22:05:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, it requires basically 0
22:06:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not that much, you only need to pay attention once a week or so, maybe even less
22:06:06 <alise> i'm a lazy arse who just mocks wooble every now and then on the mailing list
22:06:08 <alise> and i'm still a player
22:06:30 <ais523> if you want things to /happen/, you basically have to do them yourself, otherwise it just sits there doing nothing but the occasional report
22:06:42 <ais523> but if you're content to watch and chip in occasionally, hardly any effort's required
22:07:14 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't understand rule 104
22:07:18 <Vorpal> ais523, I just read it
22:07:28 <Vorpal> ais523, what is a speaker in agora? It takes too much to find the relevant rules
22:07:31 * impomatic offers ais523 as a sacrifice to summon Egobot.
22:07:32 <ais523> The Speaker for the first game shall be Michael Norrish
22:07:48 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, you said that "<ais523> rule 104's never been changed, and as a result, most players will refuse to vote for changes to it"
22:07:52 <ais523> the Speaker for the first game /was/ Michael Norrish, it doesn't matter what it means now
22:08:08 <ais523> thus, Michael Norrish is obligated to be MIchael Norrish, an obligation that he takes very seriously
22:08:30 <alise> once, Michael Norrish was not Michael Norrish
22:08:34 <alise> we exiled him from the game retroactively
22:08:47 <ais523> alise: is that just a blatant lie?
22:08:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:08:52 <ais523> or do you know something you aren't telling me?
22:08:58 <alise> ais523: I know ... all things ...
22:09:09 <alise> (it's as much of a blatant lie as him being serious about his responsibility to be himself)
22:09:12 <alise> (which is to say, entirely)
22:09:23 -!- augur has joined.
22:09:29 <ais523> alise: well, it was found via CFJ that he legally had to be Michael Norrish
22:09:38 <ais523> and he's generally been pretty good about keeping to the rules
22:09:51 <alise> ais523: ooh, I have an excellent idea
22:10:02 <alise> ais523: Michael Norrish is breaking the rules; I'll elaborate in /msg
22:10:42 <Vorpal> hm does "suffusion of yellow" come from Dirk Gently or does it have some older source?
22:11:04 <cpressey> impomatic: a sacrifice to Gregor, I assume
22:11:22 <ais523> Vorpal: incidentally, I learnt WML from looking at existing examples
22:11:28 <alise> Vorpal: dirk gently
22:11:46 <Vorpal> alise, Dirk Gently would be older
22:11:59 <Vorpal> ais523, it shouldn't be too hard
22:12:03 <alise> didn't you see how much time travel was in that story?
22:12:17 <ais523> also, what a language!
22:12:29 <ais523> it's like someone decided to make an XML-based language, and was serious about it
22:12:35 <ais523> but mixed it with the C preprocessor
22:12:45 <Vorpal> ais523, but it is a DSL so learning it from examples wouldn't be impossible
22:12:58 <Vorpal> at least in my experience
22:13:02 <ais523> Vorpal: it isn't a DSL, really
22:13:06 <ais523> it's a pretty general language
22:13:33 <Vorpal> ais523, also I thought it was heavy on [ ] for syntax? was that the preprocessor stuff?
22:14:17 <ais523> Vorpal: no, that's the XML
22:14:22 <ais523> it uses square brackets rather than angle brackets
22:14:31 <ais523> the preprocessor uses #ifdef, etc, as in C
22:14:37 <ais523> except that # is /also/ a comment character
22:14:42 <ais523> and also, it uses braces
22:15:30 <ais523> cpressey: very pluggable
22:15:41 <ais523> you can do {path/to/directory}
22:15:48 <ais523> and it automatically #includes every file in that directory
22:16:01 <alise> ais523: is WML the WAP one?
22:16:02 <Vorpal> ais523, not #include or anything such?
22:16:10 <impomatic> cpressey: a sacrifice to anyone with the power to summon egobot. I want to test a BF Joust entry before I add it to the wiki :-)
22:16:12 <ais523> alise: no, Battle for Wesnoth
22:16:14 <Vorpal> alise, no? it is wesnoth
22:16:28 <ais523> Vorpal: it's not called #include, it's called {}, which is the syntax also used for something entirely different
22:16:41 <ais523> apparently, the game disambiguates by checking to see if the file in question exists or not
22:16:44 <Vorpal> ais523, I guess it is not LR(1) or?
22:16:56 <Vorpal> indeed crazy parsing at least
22:16:56 <ais523> (actually, hopefully it checks the list of definitions first)
22:17:03 <cpressey> ais523: the best kind of context dependency ever!
22:17:06 <ais523> Vorpal: no, it's basically XML, it parses incredibly regularly
22:17:20 <Vorpal> ais523, huh, but not preprocessing?
22:17:20 <ais523> in fact, the only way I found to make it error at all is to include a mismatched bracket or something like that
22:17:29 <ais523> anything else just fails silently
22:17:37 <Vorpal> ais523, that's rather nasty
22:17:58 <ais523> the lang isn't aware that it's trapped inside Wesnoth
22:17:58 <Vorpal> ais523, also why is the preprocessor used? Not for control flow I presume?
22:18:03 <ais523> Vorpal: for subroutines
22:18:26 <Vorpal> alise, not large enough toaster
22:18:26 <ais523> there's a way around it, but it's really complex, involving setting up events to call each other in the future
22:18:29 <Vorpal> alise, otherwise: sure
22:18:31 <ais523> so the subroutines are more efficient
22:18:41 <alise> Vorpal would eat toasted bear
22:18:49 <ais523> I suspect that the loading bar when you start playing is mostly inlining subroutines
22:18:56 <Vorpal> I didn't say I would eat the result
22:19:15 <Vorpal> alise, please read what it says, I would test it on you first
22:19:19 <Vorpal> to see if it was eatable
22:19:50 <ais523> besides, who eats a /toaster/
22:19:51 <Vorpal> ais523, edible as well
22:20:05 <alise> eatable and edible, what a requirement
22:20:14 -!- impomatic has left (?).
22:20:17 <Vorpal> ais523, eatable I define as "physically possible to eat, like you can get it into your mouth and so on"
22:20:30 <Vorpal> edible I define as the usual meaning
22:20:30 <alise> Vorpal: your definition does not agree with the english language
22:20:33 <alise> cheater99: because it isn't chrome
22:20:38 <alise> Anything edible; That can be eaten without harm; non-toxic to humans; suitable for consumption; That can be eaten without disgust
22:20:39 <alise> en.wiktionary.org/wiki/edible
22:20:41 <Vorpal> alise, of course not, since when did it ever do that?
22:20:41 <olsner> cheater: due to excessive suckage
22:20:49 <alise> Vorpal: "edible" does not mean "nice"
22:20:51 <ais523> chrome seems like an appropriate material to plate a toaster with...
22:20:56 <alise> "edible" means "literally able to be eaten"
22:21:07 <Vorpal> alise, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eatable
22:21:08 <alise> so what you mean by "eatable" is actually "edible"
22:21:13 <cheater99> <cheater99> why is it so hard to find an extension for firefox
22:21:13 <cheater99> <cheater99> that makes the address bar search things, like in chrome?
22:21:13 <cheater99> * cheater99 says that with a french accent
22:21:15 <Vorpal> alis<alise> Vorpal: "edible" does not mean "nice" <-- correct
22:21:27 <Vorpal> alise, but see my link
22:21:35 <alise> edible (not comparable)
22:21:35 <alise> That can be eaten without harm; non-toxic to humans; suitable for consumption.
22:21:35 <alise> eatable (comparative more eatable, superlative most eatable)
22:21:35 <alise> Able to be eaten; edible
22:21:39 <alise> they mean the same thing.
22:21:39 <cheater99> alise: what if you say a girl is edible
22:21:46 <alise> except that eatable makes no sense.
22:21:55 <Vorpal> alise, it exists as a word
22:21:56 <alise> edible also means "That can be eaten without disgust." but less so
22:22:05 <alise> cheater99: "Yeah, she's totally non-toxic to humans".
22:22:28 <cheater99> alise: well "inedible" can still be "digestible"
22:22:37 <cheater99> like, there are some types of mushrooms
22:22:40 <alise> a guy digested a plane
22:22:43 <alise> doesn't mean the plane is edible :P
22:22:48 <cheater99> but if you force yourself to eat them, you won't die
22:23:26 <cheater99> but in a pinch, they provide protein
22:23:44 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:24:32 <cheater99> alise have you ever picked mushrooms
22:24:42 <cheater99> are you a person who enjoys trip to the woods
22:25:54 -!- sshc has joined.
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22:26:44 <Vorpal> cheater99, here is what I dislike about doing that:
22:27:05 <Vorpal> Exhibit A: Mushroom tasting nice.
22:27:09 <cheater99> you suddenly start hallucinating and find yourself in devonshire?
22:27:16 <Vorpal> Exhibit B: Looks exactly like A but lethal
22:27:24 <cheater99> with clothes on you've never seen before?
22:27:29 <Vorpal> Exhibit C: Looks exactly like A but causes you to hallucinate
22:27:40 <Vorpal> Exhibit D: Looks exactly like A but just tastes boring
22:27:45 <cheater99> inedible mushrooms look completely different
22:27:52 <cheater99> i'm not sure what you're talking about
22:27:57 <alise> i see no problem with exhibit c :)
22:28:21 * cheater99 suddenly thinks alise is a miscreant
22:28:34 <Vorpal> alise, well, depends on if you serve it at the annual anti-drug society meeting :P
22:29:02 <Vorpal> alise, yes B is the issue
22:29:20 <Vorpal> cheater99, anyway what about "kantarell" whatever that is called in English I don't know
22:29:31 <Vorpal> iirc there are some sorts that look extremely similar to a lethal one
22:29:51 <cheater99> and then tell me what they're called in english.
22:30:38 <alise> takes two seconds with interwiki, maybe Vorpal could take the effort.
22:30:41 <cheater99> unless you mean podgrzybek szatański, whatever that is called in english i don't know.
22:31:01 <Vorpal> I found out it was not the one I was thinking of
22:31:13 <cheater99> vorpal, i think you need to use the wyszukiwarka tekstu.
22:31:26 <Vorpal> cheater99, I'm looking for the one I meant
22:31:46 <Vorpal> which was not kantarell (chanterelle)
22:32:10 <cheater99> should i go eat some french cheese?
22:32:48 <cheater99> Vorpal: i bet you're all for cheese
22:33:27 <Vorpal> yes, well not all sorts
22:33:32 <Vorpal> I can't stand goat cheese
22:33:55 <Vorpal> ah yes it was chantarell
22:34:04 <Vorpal> cheater99, this is the very similar one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygrophoropsis_aurantiaca
22:35:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:35:47 <Vorpal> cheater99, anyway, there you are, night now →
22:36:05 <Ilari> There are pairs of very good and very toxic mushrooms that look very near the same...
22:36:51 <alise> Vorpal: AI is hard, maybe I'll just make them walk randomly.
22:37:37 <cpressey> alise: make them kill their own kind
22:38:31 <cpressey> alise: and add mushrooms of hallucination
22:38:47 <alise> hallu would be hard with my design
22:38:48 <alise> although maybe not
22:39:01 <cheater99> Ilari: they look nearly the same, except their biotopes don't intersect.
22:39:08 <cheater99> and if they do, every guide book has a big warning about it
22:39:30 <cheater99> and lists the give away characteristics
22:39:44 <Ilari> And then there are at least one pair of mushrooms that look nearly the same, but one is very good and one tastes extremely bad.
22:41:25 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:42:12 <alise> haha wow hallu is amazing
22:45:57 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:46:59 <alise> Even you can change character.
22:47:49 <cheater99> This mushroom is commonly confused with the Chanterelle; the distinguishing factors are color (true Chanterelle is uniform egg-yellow, while the false one is more orange in hue and graded, with darker center) and attachment of gills to the stem (true Chanterelle does not have true, blade-like gills--rather, has rib-like folds running down the stem).
22:49:00 <alise> cheater99: hallu in vagrant, my silly roguelike
22:49:27 <cheater99> alise: oh, i thought you meant a hallucination
22:49:35 <alise> 65 lines of python and no architecture that'll let enemies behave non-stupidly!
22:49:37 <cheater99> alise: i thought you have realized your plan of taking magical mushrooms
22:49:44 <alise> i can make them chase you no matter what
22:49:52 <alise> cheater99: lol, that'd be some speed
22:50:32 <Vorpal> cheater99, another one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blusher
22:51:31 <alise> hmm, maybe killing a dude should give you like $1,000
22:52:26 <Sgeo> alise, your roguelike needs to be easily FooTV-like-system-able
22:52:34 <Sgeo> It's probably one of my favorite things about Crawl
22:52:40 <alise> Sgeo: there is only one enemy and it doesn't even move.
22:53:01 <Sgeo> Probably lots of people
22:53:12 <cheater99> how could you ever think it's edible?
22:53:24 <cheater99> edible mushrooms are yellow-brown.
22:53:26 <Vorpal> "Although edible, it can be confused with deadly poisonous species, and should definitely be avoided by novice mushroomers."
22:53:47 <cpressey> and novice bear toasters alike
22:54:02 -!- augur has joined.
22:54:04 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
22:54:06 <alise> pretty good charcount for this
22:54:10 <Vorpal> cheater99, still my point stands: they all look alike unless you are an expert
22:54:27 <cheater99> why would you ever want to do that
22:54:41 <Vorpal> eat mushrooms? good question
22:54:45 <cheater99> search for mushrooms which look like shitty ones
22:55:21 <Vorpal> cheater99, irrelevant for my original claim
22:55:34 <cheater99> Vorpal: your original claim was that it was a problem
22:55:52 <cheater99> to someone who does dumb things, yes
22:56:02 <Vorpal> the biotope thing is not enough to help me at least. I'm not a nature person
22:56:09 <Vorpal> I couldn't tell what biotope it was
22:56:19 <Vorpal> thus my original claim stands
22:57:05 <Vorpal> cheater99, also /<cheater99> u/s/u/you/;s/loze/lose/
22:57:56 <Vorpal> cheater99, yes it was completely correct sed
22:58:18 <Vorpal> cheater99, I had not turned off monitor yet
22:58:50 <Vorpal> cheater99, also please learn to type. people writing "u" instead of "you" and so on is *really* annoying
22:58:52 <cheater99> also, you don't say "correct sed", you say "correctly sed".
22:58:59 <Vorpal> it makes them look like idiots
22:59:04 <alise> Vorpal: well ull hav 2 get used 2 it
22:59:13 <Vorpal> alise, And indeed, so you said
22:59:34 <Vorpal> <cheater99> also, you don't say "correct sed", you say "correctly sed". <-- no, I used sed as a verb
22:59:52 <Vorpal> you can use it both ways
22:59:55 <alise> punk-tutuashion is unk00wl
23:00:11 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
23:00:15 <Vorpal> alise, you know, this is just filtered out :P
23:00:33 <Vorpal> and now I say good night, unlike last time I used /away as well
23:00:38 <Vorpal> that makes a difference →
23:00:51 <alise> cheater99: you should debug my code
23:01:19 <alise> cheater99: http://pastie.org/1201769.txt?key=xtvbpktbvv5gbzotg5bphw
23:01:42 <alise> the monster movement code (the nested for loop in M)
23:01:44 <alise> crashes it somehow
23:01:49 <alise> unfortunately the endwin means you never see the exception :D
23:01:56 <alise> something's wrong with it, anyway
23:02:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:02:09 <alise> good luck figuring out what all the variables do, i pretty much just pick a letter of the alphabet
23:02:15 <alise> w[y,x]=46;x,y=a,b;w[y,x]=64
23:02:20 <alise> w[y,x]=32;x,y=a,b;w[y,x]=64
23:02:26 <alise> (that doesn't fix it)
23:04:09 <alise> cheater99: "made to be as short as possible"
23:04:11 <alise> ugliness be damned
23:04:17 <alise> after code golf, the sport
23:04:24 <alise> http://golf.shinh.org/ is the prime hub for that malarkey
23:05:00 <alise> oh joy, it crashes no longer
23:05:02 <alise> but the guys don't MOVE!
23:06:17 <alise> cool i can walk into walls now, why.
23:06:42 <alise> cheater99: okay, remove that first for loop in M and write something that makes all the Qs on the visible board move closer to the guy.
23:06:57 <oerjan> <Ilari> There are pairs of very good and very toxic mushrooms that look very near the same...
23:07:00 <alise> (you may want to play it a few times to figure out what all the variables are)
23:07:15 <cheater99> that's great, my problem is that my pc is going nuts
23:07:23 <cheater99> i think the gfx card is overheating
23:07:47 <oerjan> it also depends on geography, i hear some asian immigrants to norway get poisoned because one of our poisonous mushrooms look like an edible east asian one
23:07:57 <oerjan> s/hear/read in the newspaper/
23:07:59 <alise> cheater99: thankfully, vagrant runs even without much of a graphics card!
23:08:06 <alise> (can it do text? Yes? YOU WIN!)
23:08:35 <alise> cheater99: http://pastie.org/1201784.txt?key=gvzfssnyfqjigfcfm92luq
23:08:36 <cpressey> alise: so your game is about eating
23:09:09 <alise> cheater99: x,y is your position, X,Y is position of centre cell (infinite plane so we scroll), G is gold, N is # of turns, P is health that can be restored by potions, U is whether we're hallucinating or not
23:09:14 <alise> S is satiation, L is HP
23:09:20 <alise> w is the gamefield indexed by pairs of y and x
23:09:34 <cpressey> square root of minus gamefield
23:09:57 <alise> cheater99: charcodes
23:10:09 <oerjan> (incidentally chanterelles are among the "safe" mushrooms in norway)
23:10:11 <alise> the cells at that position
23:10:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:10:30 <cheater99> i mean, what do they represent in game?
23:10:47 <alise> # is inexplicable cube of unbreakable glass that you can't walk through
23:11:00 <alise> to find the numbers
23:11:02 <alise> that's what i do :P
23:11:04 <alise> 81 is Q, I know that
23:11:09 <alise> oh, and space is just open space
23:11:46 <alise> cheater99: controls: vi keys to move, q to restore health from potions you've picked up (amount you can in parens after HP display), space waits
23:12:10 <alise> cheater99: and basically all the Qs have to do is move one step closer to the @
23:12:23 <alise> you could do it more fancy if you're that masochistic, but if you want to play with the monster code that's what i'd do
23:12:28 <alise> ofc they can only walk onto space
23:12:34 <alise> since there's no memory of what's underneath a monster
23:12:38 <alise> so they'd inexplicably suck up gold
23:12:40 <alise> (maybe that's a feature)
23:13:39 <cheater99> maybe numbers > 1000 should be amount of gold + 1000.
23:13:59 <cheater99> so you have a countable amount of monsters
23:14:10 <cheater99> and it's a parametrized type!!!!!!
23:14:20 <alise> cheater99: i lost you after "yes"
23:15:03 <cheater99> w[x,y] == A > 1000 -> there is a monster at x,y with A-1000 gold.
23:15:44 <quintopia> anyone know if there is a polynomial time or approximately polynomial time algorithm for finding an embedding of a graph in a plane that minimizes the number of edge intersections?
23:16:16 <alise> cheater99: oh i see
23:16:19 <alise> i was thinking rather
23:16:24 <alise> kill monsters before they suck up all the gold ;P
23:16:43 <alise> cheater99: pretty sure the condition to go to the boss will just be having a certain amount of gold and getting to a booth
23:16:58 <alise> cheater99: still, i think figuring out why the buggers won't move is a good first step
23:17:18 <cpressey> quintopia: sounds NP-complete-ish on first blush, but maybe not
23:18:28 <alise> cheater99: meanwhile I'll get rid of the M function, since we don't need it! hooray for obfuscation!
23:18:39 <quintopia> cpressey: it doesn't seem so obvious to me, but even if it is NP-complete in some parameters it may be polynomial in others. . .
23:19:05 <quintopia> alise: so this is what python looks like...
23:19:22 <oerjan> quintopia: i think it's polynomial if the no. of edge intersections is bounded, no idea otherwise
23:19:36 <cheater99> is w in relation to the center, or to the player?
23:19:59 <alise> cheater99: it's global
23:20:04 <oerjan> (because if there are < k intersections you can just try removing all k-edge sets in turn until you find one that makes the rest planar)
23:20:07 <alise> (0,0) is the centre of everything, regardless of where you are, it's where you started
23:20:15 <alise> cheater99: if you go far enough you'll get to (3945783489579435,3459873459843759435)
23:20:57 <oerjan> but obviously this algorithm is exponential in k
23:21:17 <quintopia> oerjan: so, polynomial in number of vertices and numer of edge intersection?
23:21:17 <quintopia> oerjan: can you point me to an algorithm?
23:21:30 <quintopia> that was about a 30 second lag in text entry
23:21:44 <quintopia> aka, i typed all that before you gave me an alg
23:22:34 <oerjan> oh hm wait there's a subtlety here
23:22:57 <oerjan> adding an edge it may have to intersect _several_ others
23:23:22 <quintopia> sure, but if you start at 1 and work your way up to k, you'll find that case first...
23:24:22 <oerjan> ok if you have < k intersections you of course must have < k edges forcing them, so yeah
23:25:59 <quintopia> which brings an interesting question: what's the maximum number of intersections an n node graph can contain?
23:26:21 <quintopia> (assuming that said graph is drawn in a minimal intersection way)
23:26:38 <quintopia> aka, what's the fewest number of intersections the complete graph can contain
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23:28:09 <oerjan> quintopia: oh wait there's another subtlety - removing an edge, then an arbitrary planar embedding of the rest may not be what gives minimal intersections when you add the edge back in
23:28:12 <quintopia> meh, seems like it'll end up being O(n) anyway
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23:28:17 <oerjan> that may be more serious
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23:29:28 <quintopia> indeed, it may be that no planar embedding of the rest will yield a minimizer
23:29:48 <quintopia> and in fact one needs to find a planar embedding when two edges are removed or something
23:29:51 <cpressey> "if it is NP-complete in some parameters it may be polynomial in others"
23:30:04 <oerjan> quintopia: oh right even that
23:31:05 <oerjan> cpressey: basically that the restricted problem of looking _just_ at < k edge intersecting graphs may be polynomial to decide for a fixed k even if it is exponential in k
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23:31:30 <quintopia> what oerjan said faster than i could
23:31:53 <quintopia> you can bound some parameter and what remains is polynomially solvable
23:31:56 <cpressey> oh, parameter being # of intersecting edges. ok
23:32:50 <oerjan> cpressey: for example i recall that the problem of deciding whether one graph is isomorphic to a subgraph of another is NP-complete, but if the smaller graph is _fixed_ (or bounded in size) then it's a polynomial problem
23:34:03 <quintopia> once you know there is a polynomial time algorithm for unifying graphs on the same number of nodes/edges
23:34:03 <cheater99> alise: just so you know, you've been doing it in the wrong place.
23:34:20 <alise> cheater99: oh. goody.
23:34:25 <alise> cheater99: have you fixed it? :P
23:34:44 <quintopia> alise: the bedroom is the wrong place. next time try it in the library.
23:35:26 <quintopia> (look out for Col. Mustard's lead pipe. you never know where he'll stick it.)
23:35:31 <alise> cheater99: both :P
23:35:38 <oerjan> quintopia: um on a _fixed_ number of nodes/edges. unifying with the same but arbitrary is the graph isomorphism problem which is not known to be P (and is one of the most famous problems in NP to be neither known P or NP-complete)
23:35:38 <alise> cheater99: zeroes are uninitialised things
23:35:43 <alise> that will get initialised when they scroll into view
23:35:48 <alise> so no problem with assigning to them
23:35:51 <alise> spaces are open space
23:36:01 <alise> a zero could be anything, you just don't know until you move so that it's in view
23:36:05 <alise> obviously we can't calculate infinite cells
23:36:14 <quintopia> oerjan: yeah yeah yeah, i know what i meant
23:36:46 <Sgeo> alise, about convincing my dad: When I suggested that this was my normal weight, he said something along the lines of "Maybe. Some people are like that" or something to that effect
23:37:46 <quintopia> in particular if the smaller fixed graph has k nodes, there is a trivial n^k*k! alg. for subgraph isomorphism
23:39:02 <quintopia> so anyway, we still don't even know if there's a solution for the original problem with edge intersections bounded
23:41:35 <cheater99> alise: i made them go to the center. :p
23:41:37 <quintopia> okay apparently this is a really really difficult question
23:43:04 <alise> cheater99: yeah you might want to check that it ==32 or ==0
23:43:13 <alise> cheater99: also if you can do that, just s/0,0/x,y/ (or maybe y,x)
23:43:29 <alise> cheater99: or if you want it to eat items !=whatever '#' is :P
23:43:34 <oerjan> quintopia: i'd imagine graph drawing software would find such an algorithm useful if it existed
23:44:01 <oerjan> (maybe that was how you thought of it?)
23:45:24 <alise> if c==36:G+=randint(5,50)
23:45:40 <alise> interestingly this is not determined until you hit it. totally quantum maan
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23:46:00 <cheater99> cpressey: the quantum economy!!!!!!
23:46:47 <quintopia> oerjan: i thought of it in the context of the wire-crossing problem. what if the strong hypothesis turns out to be true for some definition of "state"? then, the next obvious question would be "what's the minimum number of crossings required?"
23:47:48 <quintopia> and so i immediately asked "well, how do we even check the number of crossings required for simple machines we already have state diagrams for?"
23:48:52 <quintopia> and I thought it must be a very hard problem, since there is a game about it (gPlanarity)
23:49:18 <oerjan> my intuition on the wire-crossing problem is sort of based on the fact that the 3-coloring problem is NP-complete even for planar graphs.
23:49:54 <quintopia> you intuit that the strong hypothesis holds?
23:50:12 <oerjan> which i think means you very easily can get full computational power without wire-crossing
23:51:37 <alise> cheater99: I will give you $947595486749567945698456 in exchange for your code.
23:52:43 <alise> cheater99: I hope you are omitting spaces!
23:52:51 <oerjan> cheater99: hint, that's zimbabwean dollars
23:53:03 <pikhq> And another set of hardsubs bites the dust.
23:53:22 <alise> headache vomit bleargh
23:53:36 <quintopia> the other reason i thought of it is exactly what you think: In fizzie's grasp language, programs are graphs, and they might be nonplanar. ais523 wants underlambda to be able to compile to any language, and so it would benefit from the ability to have output grasp programs have as few edge crossings as possible.
23:54:26 <oerjan> quintopia: found something maybe relevant
23:54:32 <oerjan> "More generally, for any fixed constant k, it is possible to recognize in linear time the k-apex graphs, the graphs in which the removal of some carefully-chosen set of at most k vertices leads to a planar graph.[6] If k is variable, however, the problem is NP-complete."
23:54:40 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex_graph
23:54:57 <quintopia> oerjan: i'd take that much in ZWD, if it still existed. that's actually an appreciable amount of money despite hyperinflation.
23:55:26 <oerjan> yeah but you'd better use it fast
23:56:14 <quintopia> i actually bid on a 20trillion ZWD on ebay once
23:56:33 <quintopia> i hear they aren't very high quality bills. just paper.
23:57:04 <oerjan> quintopia: i imagine the second sentence strongly suggests that your problem is NP-complete for variable k too
23:57:11 <quintopia> anyway, this apex graph thing implies that the general problem is probably NP-complete, but it still doesn't answer the fixed k question
23:57:21 * pikhq hates hardcoded subs.
23:57:55 <alise> can you gimme your code before-ai too just in case it develops sentience
23:58:01 <alise> i don't want sentience
23:58:06 <alise> cheater99: also there are no attacks yet...
23:58:31 <oerjan> yes but is it _sapient_
23:59:13 <quintopia> but: is sapience possible without sentience?
23:59:25 <oerjan> i mean it's all good and well with an AI complaining of pain in its diodes, but that's not the same as intelligence
23:59:33 <alise> quintopia: restate that without using the words sapience and sentience
00:00:16 <quintopia> is wisdom/intelligence impossible without the capacity to process sensation/input?
00:00:41 <oerjan> i find that a bit weak definition of sentient
00:00:48 <oerjan> _any_ computer would qualify
00:00:52 <alise> quintopia: that's a rubbish replacement, but: yes, it is impossible
00:00:53 <quintopia> i chose a weak definition on purpose
00:01:10 <oerjan> (well any non-broken one)
00:01:37 <oerjan> hm this reminds me of _another_ H2G2 quote
00:02:05 <quintopia> it highlights the distinction well: alise says it's impossible for something to be sapient without doing something so simple every computer already qualifies as being able to do ti
00:04:06 <quintopia> indeed, i like to believe 1) computers _are_ sentient and 2) sentience is not necessarily a prerequisite for sapience, just as I/O is not a prerequisite for TCness
00:04:53 <alise> cheater99: yes. can i have the code as it is now? i have to go
00:05:02 <alise> quintopia: computers are not sentient.
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00:05:15 <quintopia> alise: be patient. he can always give you the code tomorrow.
00:05:33 <alise> quintopia: i did not ask you
00:05:40 <alise> i want to look at it before i go
00:07:10 <oerjan> "And to this end they built themselves a stupendous super computer which was so amazingly intelligent that even before the data banks had been connected up it had started from I think therefore I am and got as far as the existence of rice pudding and income tax before anyone managed to turn it off."
00:07:13 <quintopia> sentience is a very poorly defined thing out there in the real world, so I chose a meaning for it that at least has some measure of testableness to it
00:07:42 <oerjan> (that was damn hard to find exactly)
00:07:59 <quintopia> that is an impressive computer inded
00:08:43 <cheater99> http://pastie.org/1201911.txt?key=2qq4jgnuxzulqebaa8la
00:09:18 <alise> cheater99: dude, you have all these unnecessary spaces! :|
00:09:54 <cheater99> "gee, that guy is writing well-formatted code."
00:10:05 <cheater99> then you look at this. ((B-11+o(1,11-B))*(1-2*(r(0,10)/10))),(A-40+o(1,40-A)*(1-2*(r(0,10)/10)))
00:10:16 <cheater99> which is the whole of the monster AI
00:10:32 <cpressey> oerjan: you know how they made it so smart? ... pair programming
00:10:44 <alise> cheater99: what the hell does it do?
00:10:58 <quintopia> cpressey: no they used the FULL POWER OF XP!
00:11:28 <alise> why do you not write to w directly?
00:11:54 <cheater99> well, hasn't mom told you not to clobber data structures you're looping over?
00:12:23 <alise> you're not looping over it with a for loop
00:12:45 <cheater99> unless you like your monsters to attain the speed of light
00:12:56 <cheater99> when they're above you in the screen.
00:13:06 <alise> i will have to shorten it you understand >:)
00:13:11 <quintopia> alise: you should follow his lead and replace all your randints with r
00:14:13 <alise> cheater99: THERE IS NO CHARACTER 9000
00:14:31 <cheater99> but there will be characters OVER 9000.
00:15:06 <quintopia> 19:12 < cheater99> when they're above you in the screen.
00:15:25 <alise> oerjan: it's in code
00:15:37 <alise> since when are there Gs
00:16:14 <alise> you realise that still none of this tries to go near the player :D
00:16:15 <alise> which was the idea
00:16:25 <cheater99> well you have to stop running away
00:16:34 <cheater99> otherwise of course they'll be confused
00:17:04 <quintopia> cheater99: i think he wants monsters that behave exactly like DROD roaches
00:17:33 <oerjan> any relation to drop bears...
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00:17:45 <cheater99> there's a nice exception being generated somewhere
00:18:08 <cheater99> and btw, something's still a bit fucked :D
00:18:37 <cheater99> alise: what's needed is a log window
00:20:27 <cpressey> it's big, it's heavy, it's wood
00:20:32 <quintopia> what rolls down stairs/ alone or in pairs/ rolls over your neighbors dog?
00:20:52 <cheater99> ((B-11+o(1,11-B))*(1-2*(r(0,10)/10))),(A-40+o(1,40-A)*(1-2*(r(0,10)/10)))
00:23:04 <alise> what is the ai logic?
00:24:06 <quintopia> if i'm reading that right, it just moves closer by a random amount random speed probability thing
00:24:13 <oerjan> hyperparainconsistent antiintuitive metapredicate illogic
00:24:26 <cheater99> there is no ai logic other than what i have posted
00:25:43 <oerjan> cpressey: YES and i agree
00:25:47 <alise> cheater99: yes but i'm tired
00:25:50 <alise> and have a headache
00:25:54 <alise> and one of my keys broke
00:25:59 <alise> and i forgot what the functions are
00:26:09 <cheater99> instead of having it given to you today
00:26:19 <quintopia> alise: start by expanding r to randint and o to copysign
00:27:12 <oerjan> its curry-howard isomorphism can only be expressed in extended Malbolge
00:29:08 <quintopia> cheater99: i'm not actually trying this game, but the player is always at the center, right?
00:29:09 <alise> cheater99: i approve not of your fork ;)
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00:31:16 <quintopia> i guess i don't know what X and Y are supposed to be
00:31:56 <quintopia> is that the current location on the map of the screen top left?
00:33:17 <quintopia> looks right. so then you're looping over the visible screen, and when you find...
00:42:40 <quintopia> and moves it randomly to the left or right, up or down each with probability 1/4 iirtc
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00:50:08 <cheater99> http://pastie.org/private/gaqwdbng4srklx1adb2o6g
00:51:39 <quintopia> been factored in, i can only assume they give chase now :D
00:52:13 <quintopia> s/been/seeing as have x and y have been/
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02:05:42 <oerjan> > do Just test <- Right Nothing; return "hm"
02:05:42 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
02:06:08 <oerjan> > do Just test <- Right Nothing; return "hm" :: Either String String
02:06:09 <lambdabot> Left "Pattern match failure in do expression at <interactive>:1:136-139"
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02:30:13 <pikhq> *sigh* We're really getting down to needing desperate measures to force IPv6 transitioning.
02:31:24 <pikhq> Something like a major IXP threatening to drop people who don't dual-stack.
02:31:43 <pikhq> Internet Exchange Point.
02:31:45 <Sgeo> Oh, Internet eXchange Point?
02:31:50 <oerjan> Internet Extermination Protocol
02:32:15 <pikhq> Y'know, where there's tons of peering.
02:32:35 <oerjan> yeah that's probably where the CIA peers over our shoulders
02:35:27 <Gregor> *ipv4 rapebot rolls in*
02:35:41 <Gregor> <IPV4 Rapebot> VZZZZT DOES YOUR NETWORK SUPPORT IPV6?
02:36:07 <Gregor> <Random sysadmin> Uhh, no, not yet, we're planning on adding support once there's customer demand for it, b--
02:36:47 <Gregor> <IPV4 Rapebot> UNACCEPTABLE RESPONSE. ASSUME PROSTRATE POSITION. BEGINNING INSERTION PROCEDURE.
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02:38:35 <pikhq> oerjan: The NSA actually does have black rooms in US IXPs. (citation: Hepting v. AT&T)
02:39:02 <oerjan> pikhq: hey puns can be based on facts too
02:39:11 <Ilari> Heh... IPv6 is bit lacking. There's no way to properly configure the last mile...
02:39:32 <pikhq> Ilari: Whaddya mean?
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02:40:27 <Ilari> pikhq: DHCPv6: Support is poor. RA: Can't configure DNS (at least in most cases).
02:40:46 <Ilari> And no, don't say RDNSS, I know about that.
02:41:04 <pikhq> Clearly we should also have the IPV4 Rapebot go to work on router manufacturers.
02:41:50 <Ilari> More like OS manufacturers...
02:42:02 <pikhq> Which OSes don't support it?
02:42:46 <Gregor> IPV4 Rapebot has many skills.
02:42:48 <pikhq> Aside from XP, which is *more deprecated than Windows 3.1 was when it came out*.
02:42:55 <Gregor> It can rape anyone in need of rape.
02:43:32 <Gregor> pikhq: In spite of the fact that everyone uses it :P
02:43:54 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes, but Microsoft is about to pull the plug on security updates, and that's *all the support it is getting*.
02:43:56 * Ilari grabs some OS updates over IPv6...
02:44:52 <pikhq> That said, if it's that big of an issue, IPV4 Rapebot can go to work on Microsoft.
02:44:59 <pikhq> Surely they can add one more feature.
02:46:09 <oerjan> there is the danger though that microsoft might reverse engineer Rapebot for their own purposes
02:46:21 <pikhq> oerjan: They call it Clippy.
02:46:35 <Ilari> Today's IANA depletion date estimates: 2011-04-20 and 2011-06-01.
02:47:30 <pikhq> Based on current uptake rates, we will be on IPv6 at about 3000.
02:50:24 <Ilari> Soon the IPv6 migration plan in most places will look like this: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/12/our-disaster-recovery-plan.png
02:53:10 <pikhq> Why the hell aren't ISPs dual-stack *right now*?
02:55:39 <pikhq> Oh, would you look at that. NTT in Japan (*the* phone company) has offered end-user IPv6 for 10 years now.
02:56:28 <pikhq> Clearly you can only move forward with IPv6 if you're willing to offer gigabit to the home.
03:01:56 <Sgeo> Does the customer have to know about it?
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03:54:09 <pikhq> Welp, trying to get Teredo running and failing somehow.
04:00:53 <pikhq> Somehow, my NAT is untraversible.
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04:02:09 <Ilari> Somehow "Teredo" sounds better than "Shipworm".
04:02:36 * pikhq shall be waiting on Sixxs, then.
04:02:51 <pikhq> And I can't use Hurricane Electric because the router here *denies pings*.
04:04:51 <Ilari> NAT on what device?
04:05:23 <Ilari> And presumably no way to portforward protocol 41...
04:05:23 <pikhq> He's perversely paranoid about security.
04:05:45 <pikhq> Though ironically it supports UPnP hole punching.
04:06:00 <pikhq> Proof that a computer science degree does not net you common sense.
04:08:31 <Ilari> The computer that protocol 41 was forwarded to could then route the data for the rest...
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04:10:21 <pikhq> UPnP hole punching does TCP ports only.
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04:11:46 <pikhq> Quite convenient for BitTorrent, but not much else.
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04:15:05 <Ilari> pikhq: Teredo not working is probably means one or both of two things: 1) NAT is symmetric or 2) There's extensive port blocking.
04:18:42 <pikhq> Ilari: I *doubt* it's symmetric NAT, so I'm going with UDP port blocking.
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04:27:21 <pikhq> So definitely waiting on Sixxs.
04:45:35 <pikhq> States now charging for use of public defenders.
04:47:37 <Ilari> Heh... Spammer fined $1,068,928,721.46
05:00:50 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: "Fuck the Supreme Court"
05:01:46 <pikhq> Basically: by doing so, and nobody appeals it.
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08:40:02 <augur> egg foo young is so delicious omg
08:47:14 <augur> its basically a chinese-style omelette
08:47:43 <augur> cheater99: in theory, nothing
08:47:48 <augur> in practice, EVERYTHING
08:48:39 <augur> i dont know exactly how to explain it
08:48:50 <cheater99> This dish is prepared with beaten eggs and minced ham. From these dishes, Chinese chefs in the United States, at least as early as the 1930s, created a pancake filled with eggs, vegetables, and meat or seafood.
08:49:26 <augur> that just describes an omelette :|
08:50:04 <augur> it says "pancake" but egg foo young doesnt have any bread
08:50:10 <augur> so who knows what that writer was thinking
08:53:07 <cheater99> pancakes usually don't have any bread in them.
08:53:36 <augur> well, they're a bread-like food
08:53:51 <augur> or batter-y, in this case
08:54:00 <augur> but egg foo young doesnt have batter
08:57:20 <augur> well, i just ate some!
08:57:27 <augur> batterologist, in fact
08:58:13 <augur> interestingly, theres a fine line between batter and scrambled egg
08:59:39 <augur> well, batter is flour, with some other stuff, potentially egg, and often a liquid like milk
08:59:50 <augur> you can easily imagine adding some milk to egg for flavoring or consistency
08:59:54 <augur> or some flour similarly
09:00:00 <augur> but in small quantities
09:00:09 <augur> and still its a kind of fried egg, right
09:00:24 <augur> so when does it stop being fried egg
09:00:30 <augur> i like my pancakes very eggy
09:00:52 <augur> if i used slightly more egg, it would almost be hard to call pancakes
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09:01:13 <augur> when does it cross from egg stuff to batter stuff
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11:38:43 <quintopia> i want to believe the reason xkcd has been sucking more than usual lately is that he's been spending most of his time working on this map...but given how much free time he must have, I'm not holding my breath.
11:44:38 <Slereah> Or does he just get internet money
12:14:08 <quintopia> this map is the sort of thing that would go great on a pictoblog!
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12:27:24 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: hi <-- yes?
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15:41:58 <alise> oh bloody hell, my g key is still broken
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15:56:27 <alise> i disapprove of the modernisation >_>
15:59:08 <pikhq> I DISAPPROVE OF MUTABILITY
16:00:44 * Phantom_Hoover has discovered that finite naturals in Coq are trickier than they first appear.
16:01:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: finite naturals?
16:02:03 <alise> you mean |Fin n| = n?
16:02:44 <alise> Inductive fin : nat -> Set := fz : forall n, fin n | fs : fin n -> fin (S n)
16:02:52 <alise> you can also define a function fin : nat -> Set
16:02:55 <alise> this is sometimes more useful
16:03:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, for that definition |fin n| = S n, but whatever.
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16:07:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: erm, is it?
16:07:47 <alise> fin 0 = {fz : fin 0}
16:07:55 <alise> fin 1 = {fz : fin 1, fs fz : fin 1}
16:08:07 <alise> Inductive fin : nat -> Set := fz : forall n, fin (S n) | fs : fin n -> fin (S n)
16:08:10 <alise> that's how it's done, I forgot
16:08:27 <alise> cheater: how goes the AI :P
16:11:39 <cpressey> alise: last i saw it, it was http://pastie.org/private/gaqwdbng4srklx1adb2o6g
16:12:11 <alise> cpressey: huh, did clog go out?
16:12:13 <alise> that's no in the logs
16:12:36 <alise> i disapprove of his silly fork ;)
16:13:08 <alise> although r = randint is cool
16:13:12 <alise> Q('Yum! That was delicious.');L+=int(not r(0,2)and r(5,10))
16:13:19 <alise> s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(T)if U and not r(0,2)else w[v])
16:13:33 <cpressey> python is such an ick language for golf
16:13:49 <alise> cpressey: that's why you do evil things!
16:14:02 <alise> s.addstr(22,0,'_'*80);C('$:%-17s T:%-17s S:%-17s HP:%-3s (%s)'%(G,N,S,L,P));s.move(y-Y+11,x-X+40)
16:14:10 <alise> T=[32]*1000+[36,81]*5+[37]*3+[35]*50+[33]
16:14:16 <cpressey> alise: your code is almost READABLE
16:14:16 <alise> elif k=='q'and L and L+20<301:
16:14:16 <alise> q=min(L,20);L+=q;P=max(P-q,0);D()
16:14:31 <alise> cpressey: okay then, tell me what this does
16:14:33 <alise> s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(T)if U and not r(0,2)else w[v])
16:14:59 <alise> cpressey: I must have told you >__>
16:15:23 <alise> "not r(0,n-1)" for a 1 in n chance is awesome, though
16:15:29 <alise> in fact, i might define a function for that
16:16:04 <alise> u=lambda n:not r(0,n)
16:16:10 <alise> u(n) is 1 in (n+1) chance
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16:30:21 <alise> ha, my monsters move even when it isn't their turn.
16:36:02 <cpressey> Does lambdabot keep messages for us, too?
16:36:50 <cpressey> I suppose we could save them as text files in HackEgo, but, notification.
16:37:52 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
16:37:57 <alise> amazing how much you can do in so little code, isn't it?
16:38:42 <alise> cpressey: does hallu normally allow you to hallucinate yourself as being floor in roguelikes?
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16:39:43 <alise> What, by executing mine? :P
16:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> A full-featured roguelike in precisely 7 bytes of shell script!
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16:43:24 <Ilari> This tells something about IPv6 deployment status: http://www.mrp.net/IPv6_Survey.html (someone's comment "Un.. fucking.. believable."). Short summary: MAJOR FAIL.
16:44:35 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I get errors when linking to it
16:44:56 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, well, you do with that kind of narrow-minded thinking.
16:45:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Who says library interfaces have to be through linking?
16:45:26 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I ALSO CANNOT FIGURE OUT HOW TO BORROW BOOKS FROM IT
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16:50:01 <alise> a+=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b+=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu')
16:50:07 <alise> BEHOLD THE CRAZY BOOLEAN ARITHMETIC
16:50:39 <alise> Believe it or not, that actually works.
16:50:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hum?
16:50:49 <alise> I don't have any explicit booleans there.
16:50:52 <alise> Not even in the old version/
16:51:05 <alise> In this case a and b are the new x and y we're moving to, and k is the key.
16:51:15 <alise> Also, 0 would work instead of False.
16:51:24 <alise> This implements hjkl cardinals, and yubn diagonals.
16:51:30 <alise> In two arithmetic statements! Fuck yeah!
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16:59:49 <alise> HOLY SHIT THE QS BREED
17:00:24 <fizzie> cpressey: Maybe I should add message-passing to fungot, then.
17:00:24 <fungot> fizzie: the shit-talking between rounds has to stop. i can't come home and kill a spider. why don't you let us in the sega booth soon. does it have any kryptonite?
17:01:04 <fizzie> fungot: The Sega booth is full of kryptonite, in fact. Stop quoting entire sentences verbatim, you silly bot.
17:01:04 <fungot> fizzie: i didn't know where else to go.
17:03:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa* speeches ss wp youtube
17:03:45 <alise> aww, quoting it will just be quoting verbatim then :)
17:08:26 <fizzie> I'll try to retrain that model at some point.
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17:19:37 <Ilari> If that page is descriptive of IPv6, the IPv6 deployment plan in many organizations is probably looking like the disaster recovery plan at Dilbert's work...
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17:21:33 <cheater> have you seen my new version
17:21:41 <alise> cheater: i saw the one cpressey linked
17:22:02 <alise> and yours is broken btw, monsters move even when it's not a turn
17:23:08 <cheater> yeah duh, why are you doing M() if bashing into a wall?
17:23:19 <cheater> you should have a return at the very top for that
17:23:23 <alise> because M() handles it
17:23:25 <alise> there's no M() any more, also
17:23:28 <alise> you're working on an older version
17:23:43 <cheater> it's a nice piece of code i added
17:23:54 <cheater> the monsters can even walk around obstacles!
17:23:59 <alise> but i've almost written my own >_>
17:24:11 <alise> (yours was part of an older version)
17:24:15 <alise> cheater: yeah well i stole some of your code
17:25:14 <alise> the actual logic i couldn't understand so i couldn't make it run to me :)
17:25:17 <alise> so i didn't need o
17:25:26 <cheater> how could you not understand it?
17:26:13 <cheater> it takes the position of the cell and the position of the player, calculates the vector between them, and then unitarizes that vector
17:26:19 <alise> cheater: well rather i didn't bother to
17:26:35 <cheater> then, it randomly flips some of the coordinates at a small probability
17:26:47 <alise> cheater: last i saw, it actually moves to (0,0)
17:26:55 <cheater> you hadn't looked at the new one
17:27:06 <cheater> also i made the line mirror-symmetric (kinda..)
17:27:42 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: That code is a real at's nest.
17:28:10 <cheater> i'm not sure why malbolge is in the topic
17:28:15 <alise> cheater: the new one had some gold monster stuff which i wasn't sure i approved of >_>
17:28:24 <cheater> alise: of course you approve of it
17:28:29 <cheater> alise: think about it, monsters lvling up
17:28:43 <cheater> alise: this means you have to kill monsters quickly otherwise they'll level up too far
17:28:52 <alise> maybe in Super Lotsa Added Stuff Vagrant
17:29:30 <cheater> you could have made that switchable instead
17:29:39 <alise> it's golfed code!!
17:29:51 <cheater> and if it gets parametrized it's nicer
17:32:09 <alise> cheater: you don't understand what golfing is :P
17:32:54 <alise> cheater: i probably will add them
17:33:08 <cheater> but it won't be my code then
17:34:27 <alise> your code has spacse
17:34:38 <alise> my code has breeding Qs
17:34:44 <alise> r,i,t,u=map(w.get,[(f,e),(d,e),(f,c),(d,c)])
17:34:44 <alise> if r==32:q[f,e]=81
17:34:44 <alise> if i==32:q[d,e]=81
17:34:44 <alise> if t==32:q[f,c]=81
17:35:05 <cheater> my code doesn't have spaces in the new version
17:35:17 <cheater> it was just proof of concept OK????????????////////////
17:35:24 <alise> i'll consider it >_________________________>
17:38:05 <alise> wow now the monsters run away from me
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17:46:48 <quintopia> you should parameterize monster motion too. some come towards you, some run away, and some wander aimlessly
17:47:05 <cheater> you obviously hadn't seen the data structure
17:47:28 <quintopia> what would take more code but be cooler is if they came toward you only if you've been sitting still too long, like a cat sneaking up on you.
17:47:47 <quintopia> but if you go towards them, they run away
17:48:43 <quintopia> especially if they have camoflauge! and only appear when they move!
17:50:28 <alise> there are no rooms
17:50:32 <alise> well, apart from emergent ones.
17:51:41 <quintopia> they strive to stay close to one another, and only move if they can get closer to the player without breaking formation, or if they aren't in formation yet.
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18:16:09 <oerjan> <cpressey> Does lambdabot keep messages for us, too?
18:16:21 <lambdabot> tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>.
18:17:27 <oerjan> @tell cpressey Sure it does!
18:18:20 <oerjan> there is also MemoServ
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18:44:39 <olsner> omg, we have a lambdabot now?
18:45:22 <oerjan> cpressey: erm why didn't it tell you :(
18:46:15 <olsner> > fix$(<$>)<$>(:)<*>((<$>((:[{- thor's mother -}])<$>))(=<<)<$>(*)<$>(*2))$1
18:46:16 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,...
18:46:18 <oerjan> cpressey: try saying something without lambdabot: in front
18:46:27 <lambdabot> cpressey: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:46:40 <lambdabot> oerjan said 29m 13s ago: Sure it does!
18:47:57 <olsner> oerjan: I wrote that :D
18:48:48 <olsner> not the thor's mother comment though, I think it started out with just (:[]) in the middle... a few people've edited the wiki page afterwards
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18:51:32 <olsner> aha, the first version on that wiki page says {- OH MY GOD IT'S A COMMENT!!! -} instead, that'd be from me then
18:53:34 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
18:54:34 <olsner> the > is only for evaluating expressions
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18:55:33 <olsner> but you can probably enter ill-typed expressions and use the error message to see the type if you want to :D
18:55:57 <oerjan> you can do that to get fixities
18:56:04 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Num.+' [infixl 6] of a section
18:56:18 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Bool.Bool)
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18:57:05 <cpressey> I suppose 2<3 would have been a nicer fake typo
19:01:07 <Gregor> AMERICAN KEYBOARD OF JESUS
19:01:19 <olsner> is it the *keyboard* or the *layout* that's american?
19:01:38 <cpressey> good point. the keyboard itself is probably chinese.
19:01:49 <olsner> many Model M's are made in ireland iirc
19:02:04 <cpressey> i say this only on the basis of odds.
19:03:18 <Gregor> But everything in America is made in China.
19:03:32 <cpressey> Gregor: that's why i liked those odds.
19:03:32 <Gregor> So that's as American as it can be.
19:05:06 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `IO'
19:05:06 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Int'
19:08:33 <olsner> so... whence the lambdabot?
19:08:51 <olsner> I don't think I've seen her in here before
19:10:14 <olsner> "From whence has a strong literary precedent, appearing in Shakespeare and the King James Bible as well as in the writings of numerous Victorian-era writers. In recent times, however, it has been criticized as redundant by usage commentators."
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19:11:21 <Gregor> From whence do thy usage commentators come, olsner?
19:11:23 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '='
19:11:29 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b c. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
19:11:38 <olsner> Gregor: *whence, the from is redundant :P
19:11:55 <quintopia> olsner is clearly the usage commentator
19:11:59 <Gregor> olsner: Your face is redundant, but you don't see me complaining.
19:12:16 <cpressey> wait, "* -> *"? that's a new one on me
19:12:44 <Gregor> "This function does some shit"
19:13:22 <olsner> very simplified, '*' is any normal type
19:13:35 <olsner> there's also #, ## and ?
19:14:03 <cpressey> so * -> * is the kind of all one-argument functions?
19:14:15 <olsner> one-argument type constructors
19:15:10 <cpressey> i was going to say constructors, but it's the type constructor that has a kind, yeah
19:16:22 <olsner> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/IntermediateTypes has a neat little ascii diagram of the kinds
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19:18:44 <olsner> constructors also have kinds, but I think they'd all just be *
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19:45:37 <SgeoN1> Hello. Showing off #esoteric again
19:45:55 <fizzie> SgeoN1: Oh no, must we be amusing now?
19:46:15 <cpressey> I didn't even see SgeoN1 when I typed that. Don't interpret it as an attempt to be amusing.
19:46:45 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, say something amusing!
19:46:45 <fungot> fizzie: fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord.
19:47:11 <olsner> SgeoN1: see - utterly boring.
19:48:02 <fizzie> fungot: You're such a disappointment sometimes.
19:48:03 <fungot> fizzie: i can do with a bagpipe?) for fnord macros and expansion.)
19:54:26 <SgeoN1> No longer showing off #esoteric
19:55:03 <fizzie> SgeoN1: You should warn us in advance that we'd clean the channel up a bit, be more presentable.
19:56:57 <yorick> cheater99: that doesn't even have a verb!
19:57:32 <yorick> I think that would need at least two verbs
19:57:56 <olsner> maybe latin doesn't need all the redundant verbs
19:59:07 <yorick> olsner: but there's nothing redundant anything
19:59:25 <yorick> "cogito ergo dei" <-- it lacks a second verb and puts a noun instead :/
20:00:02 <olsner> well, then it's just missing a copula, right? do you *really* need to put that down every time?
20:03:47 <fizzie> How would *that* help?
20:04:00 <olsner> how *would* that help?
20:05:06 <fizzie> How would that *help*?
20:05:14 <yorick> *How* would that help?
20:05:27 <olsner> *how* would *that* help?
20:05:35 <yorick> how *would* that *help*
20:06:16 <yorick> cheater99: true, but how would *that* help? :)
20:07:11 <olsner> well, let's just say that obviously *someone* is in need of a latin grammar lesson
20:07:31 <yorick> and it *might* just be me :/
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20:15:55 * olsner watches the waves as they propagate around his abdomen
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20:36:33 <olsner> speaking of edible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_dormouse
20:37:42 <olsner> but it was probably a long time ago you were discussing that
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20:41:37 <olsner> ... and why does Moq COCK you?
20:41:50 <olsner> that makes no sense though
20:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I just want to rewrite an expression, and it refuses to do so for no obvious reason.
20:51:25 <yorick> aww poor edible dormice
20:51:37 <yorick> named after their edibility
20:52:10 <olsner> much unlike the great tortoises that were so edible no-one bothered to give them a proper name
20:52:22 <olsner> for a couple of hundred years anyway
21:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Stephen Wolfram's ego vs. that of the Apprentice candidates.
21:01:40 <olsner> this is probably like comparing infinities
21:02:04 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, a TV Burp fight is the standard mechanism of comparing infinities.
21:02:11 <olsner> the question is, which infinity has the largest cardinality
21:02:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I like |N|, and I like |R|. But which is bigger? There's only one way to find out! FIGHT!
21:05:57 <olsner> hmm, how was it this infinity thing worked again? R can burp at least |N| for every |N|, and thus it's bigger?
21:06:46 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I have the solution for your Coq problem.
21:07:28 <olsner> cpressey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WxJECOFg8w
21:07:41 <alise> olsner: p, sure he knows
21:13:35 <cheater99> how the fuck do you use the triplet mode on a tb 303
21:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, anyway, my problem is basically that I can't right-rewrite then left-rewrite.
21:15:00 <alise> cpressey doesn't know Coq
21:17:46 <alise> cheater99: i am just fine thank you
21:18:14 <alise> can i just say that vagrant's code is awesome
21:18:16 <cheater99> i can't figure out how to program this thing
21:18:27 <cheater99> it's like the fucking intercal manual
21:19:04 * cheater99 gives alise a hug for lightening up his day.
21:20:10 <alise> for this thing cheater99 is using
21:20:37 <alise> can you set a global exception handler in python?
21:24:40 <cheater99> alise: just put everything in a try/catch.
21:25:01 <alise> cheater99: no, that'd fuck up the indentation
21:25:13 <alise> def hook(t,v,b):endwin();sys.__excepthook__(t,v,b)
21:25:14 <alise> sys.excepthook=hook
21:25:14 <alise> execfile('vagrant.py')
21:25:15 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: a drum machine, I gather?
21:25:30 <alise> and yes, it is evil to use endwin like that without importing it myself but I DON'T CARE
21:25:58 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: No, Coq is a theorem prover.
21:26:31 <cpressey> Confusing drum machines and theorem provers. Just another wonderful service provided by your local #esoteric.
21:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, drum machine as in machine which makes drum noises?
21:27:52 <alise> HEY cheater99 DEBUG MY AI CODE :P
21:28:09 <cpressey> I thought it was called a TR-303... maybe this is another model
21:29:08 <yorick> new SGU is notably better than previous ep
21:29:42 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:30:19 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:32:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god, Randall Munroe hasn't rehashed Online Communities, has he?
21:33:05 <olsner> lunch conversation indicates he has
21:34:44 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: he has
21:36:08 <alise> cheater: bah, Q with p=0 doesn't work :(
21:37:26 <cheater99> cpressey: it's actually a bass synthesizer.
21:37:58 <alise> p is second parameter (wait for response or not)
21:38:03 <alise> Q(foo), if done before D(), just gets wiped out
21:38:07 <alise> by the status line
21:38:11 <alise> whereas, as it's a message function
21:38:16 <alise> i'm trying to fix it right now
21:38:38 <cheater99> the great thing about this thing is
21:38:47 <cheater99> it's light and small and battery operated
21:38:56 <cheater99> which means you can take it with you to the toilet
21:39:00 <alise> cheater99: does your Q work??
21:39:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:39:21 <cheater99> i abandoned the project after a frosty rejection from the core team
21:39:22 <alise> hmm mine is *seriously* fucked up
21:39:36 <alise> cheater99: i was just joking y'know.
21:39:40 -!- augur has joined.
21:39:59 <alise> HOW THE FUCK DID THEY OBLITERATE EACH OTHER
21:40:24 <alise> they wipe everyone out indiscriminately
21:41:01 <cheater99> alise: you need the masking array, otherwise you're fuck'd
21:42:11 <alise> cheater99: i have a masking array.
21:42:34 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:42:36 <alise> i have managed to break even normal Q awesome.
21:42:55 <olsner> dood applies regardless
21:43:30 <alise> HOW ARE THEY ALL FLOCKING TO THE CENTRE I SPECIFIED ME AS THE TARGET
21:43:38 <yorick> cheater99: no one in this channel is a girl
21:43:57 <alise> yorick: did, about four times IIRC
21:44:01 <alise> (I worked it out once)
21:44:50 <alise> oh so that's what i did
21:44:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes
21:47:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: lifetime
21:47:29 -!- aschueler has joined.
21:47:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: counting all the females I know to have been in here
21:48:43 <Vorpal> alise, wtf at rerunning the map thing. It was quite nice first time, and redoing it could work, just not as a comic, maybe something to post on his blog or such
21:48:56 <alise> it's not a comic, it's a picto-blo
21:49:13 <Vorpal> alise, but I like the lifeboats marked in that picture
21:49:19 <Vorpal> leaving digg and going for reddit
21:49:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:51:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a bit above IRC Isles
21:52:03 * alise realises that "not r(0,2)" is longer than "r(0,2)==0", cries
21:52:15 <alise> Q('Yum! That was delicious.');L+=int(0==r(0,2)and r(5,10))
21:52:18 <alise> Guess why the 0 comes first.
21:52:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yep :D so I can have the )
21:52:42 <alise> so i can avoid a space
21:55:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you can't find irc isles, it is next to usenet.
21:55:38 <Sgeo> It looks a bit big, tbh
21:55:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, where is second life?
21:55:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Usenet is slightly smaller than IRC on that map, but I've already found it.
21:56:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did you spot the invasion fleet btw?
21:56:54 <Vorpal> (not the same as the lifeboats)
21:57:32 <cpressey> alise: females in here intentionally, or including those who wander in here for other reasons?
21:57:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh and is "subspace" just a star trek reference, or some game? It is next to MMO Isle, opposite to second life
21:58:39 <cpressey> alise: Oh and golf your user messages. Q('Mm!') should suffice.
21:58:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, next to google talk
21:59:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which is close to skype
21:59:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't know
22:00:37 <alise> cpressey: intentionally
22:00:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is "kayne's isle of sadness", in whaler sound next to google talk
22:00:44 <alise> Also, no golfing messages :P
22:00:50 <alise> Playable roguelike, tiny code.
22:00:55 * alise is typing from his replacement keyboard...
22:00:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, mumorpeger eh? *googles wtf that is*
22:00:58 <alise> Quite nice for a Logitech.
22:01:03 <alise> "Slim" but not hopelessly so, and a nice tactile action.
22:01:03 <cheater99> alise: have you ever done anything with uC's?
22:01:09 <alise> cheater99: expand uC
22:01:13 <Vorpal> Urban Dictionary: mumorpeger
22:01:13 <Vorpal> A different way to say MMORPG. (Massively multiplayer online role-playing game)
22:01:40 <alise> cheater99: no, but sounds fun
22:02:03 <cheater99> that can modify themselves on the fly
22:02:08 <cheater99> and it's an important part of the process
22:02:08 <Vorpal> cheater99, what does uC stand for? I mean it doesn't really expand to microcontroller
22:02:16 <Vorpal> cheater99, µC would make some sort of sense
22:02:22 <cpressey> cheater99: for certain values of "fly"
22:02:23 <alise> The quick brown fox jumpwedover my bix sphynx of qwertz.
22:02:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, easy: altgr-m
22:03:10 <cpressey> Vorpal: that just makes Outlook pop up!
22:03:12 <Vorpal> I believe that will work on US international too
22:04:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why is altgr stupid?
22:04:07 <Vorpal> it is just ISO level 3 shift
22:04:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, okay, why is it illogical?
22:04:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, they key bindings on it? To some extent yes.
22:05:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ð makes sense for icelandic iirc?
22:05:19 <Vorpal> and the þ one *looks* similar
22:05:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and µ is pronounced "mu" starting with m
22:05:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, I don't know for windows, do tell me if you find how to type µ there
22:05:56 <cpressey> Huh, I can't Alt+252 to get those gnarly chars
22:06:02 <cpressey> what kind of PowerShell is that
22:06:13 <Vorpal> cpressey, "power(less)shell" :P
22:06:58 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:07:16 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:07:35 -!- wareya has joined.
22:07:51 -!- alise has joined.
22:08:34 * pikhq can has 2001:1938:81:169::2 !
22:09:42 -!- alise has quit (Client Quit).
22:09:48 <pikhq> I can ping over IPv6... ::1 and 2001:1938:81:169::1.
22:10:30 <pikhq> So the tunnel's up and... Nothing's being forwarded?
22:11:44 <Vorpal> just the ::1 and ::2 pattern was familiar
22:11:53 <pikhq> And my IPv6 routing table seems to be set right.
22:12:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, it was a PITA under gentoo
22:12:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, works like a charm under arch
22:12:29 <pikhq> emerge aiccu;/etc/init.d/aiccu start
22:12:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, can you read the text in the dark area on the youtube island?
22:12:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I can't figure out what it says
22:12:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes but getting it actually working
22:12:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, let me check old /etc stuff
22:13:07 <pikhq> It's definitely running and I'm definitely getting IPv6 packets going through the link.
22:13:31 <pikhq> It's just not *routing* anything from there.
22:14:19 -!- alise has joined.
22:14:30 <alise> How is one meant to use a laptop on a computer stand?
22:14:35 <alise> The screen is too small!
22:15:02 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, how long will it be until ISPs actually start using IPv6?
22:16:17 <fizzie> Mine's been doing native end-user v6 for at least three years now.
22:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Things that annoy me: people who say "so-called" when they mean to indicate inaccuracy.
22:17:16 <alise> Things that annoy me: People who get annoyed by too many things.
22:17:25 <alise> Flaw of this keyboard: The spacebar is curved! Why?!
22:18:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Things that annoy me: People who feel the need to get a sense of self-superiority by not complaining about things.
22:18:14 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> OK Go bay? <-- hm, any clue what that refers to?
22:18:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, eh, okay?
22:19:23 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Things that annoy me: People who feel the need to get a sense of self-superiority by not complaining about things.
22:19:31 <alise> ditto, but mentioning them all is really not required :p
22:19:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I rate the probability that Vorpal knows who OK Go are as something like zero.
22:20:12 <alise> "if this is true, everything else is LESS THAN FALSE"
22:21:07 <alise> IPv6, it's like IPv4 except now DNS is doubly required!
22:21:36 <pikhq> Eh, running DNS on localhost; not a big deal.
22:21:52 <alise> (the rube goldberg machine video if anyone hasn't seen it, i hadn't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qybUFnY7Y8w)
22:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, P(Vorpal knows about OK Go \/ the Pope's a Catholic) = 0
22:23:00 <alise> That's because P(the Pope's a Catholic) = 0
22:27:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself).
22:28:32 <quintopia> alise: link the dogs video too. it's my second favorite.
22:28:47 <cpressey> because he no longer has his magic hat
22:29:21 * quintopia steals back the Pope's hat from cpressey
22:29:40 <alise> quintopia: that one's awesome too (and has better music)
22:29:58 <alise> "OK Go? Yeah, that's the video guys who make their own soundtrack, right?"
22:30:14 <Sgeo> I thought \/ was or
22:30:37 <Sgeo> I guess that's what alise's P(the Pope's a Catholic) = 0 is pointing out
22:30:48 <alise> no, that was just a random joke
22:31:20 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHlJODYBLKs to satisfy quintopia
22:32:50 <cpressey> so are imported modules like dynamically scoped in Python?
22:34:31 * alise watches as his Mac does Game of Life
22:35:32 <alise> GoL is my Mac's screensaver.
22:35:56 <Sgeo> I meant @ cpressey
22:37:09 <cpressey> Sgeo: an example needs at least 3 files so is hard to give
22:37:49 <cpressey> if a and b both import common, and a changes common.foo and calls something in b, and the thing in b looks at common.foo, it sees the change that a made
22:38:10 <cpressey> but it doesn't always seem to happen
22:38:12 <Sgeo> I used that to do project-global variables in PSOX >.>
22:38:14 <cpressey> there is something else going on
22:39:55 <quintopia> you should make a generalized vant screensaver.
22:40:07 <alise> quintopia: (1) yes, since 2006; (2) what's vant?
22:40:34 <quintopia> the clas of automata in which langton's ant falls
22:40:38 <alise> mmf, this keyboard needs the numpad lobbing off, it's great though
22:40:57 <Vorpal> <cpressey> DOUBLE RESOLVE!!! <-- do you have the resolve required to implement this?
22:41:28 <Sgeo> WHat's wrong with the numpad?
22:43:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, how can I get more nerd cred than having Life as my screensaver?
22:44:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I like electricsheep, too, so changing it will need a good reason.
22:44:06 <Sgeo> turing machine?
22:44:07 <cpressey> re py, i was confused by two modules with the same name in different packages.
22:44:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I have no screensaver on this box.
22:44:51 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: Mersenne Search...
22:44:51 <alise> The mac just runs a randomised Game of Life with one pixel per cell.
22:44:54 <alise> Surprisingly fast, too.
22:44:57 <alise> About 100 gens/sec.
22:45:01 <alise> A bit less after a while; 95 or so.
22:45:05 <alise> Starts at like 125.
22:46:06 <quintopia> i like to run around 10000gens/sec...
22:46:42 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: run GoL as your screensaver, 1 cell per pixel, with Caterpillar as the default pattern
22:47:06 <alise> quintopia: it's 1680x1050
22:47:12 <alise> it shouldn't be too fast
22:47:22 <alise> hashlife is rubbish for viewing things interactively
22:47:29 <alise> since different areas are on different generations
22:47:57 <alise> ohh that's what i did wrong
22:48:07 <quintopia> it's not rubbish for watching Caterpillar. Phantom_Hoover: if you do that, it should automatically scroll upwards to follow it.
22:48:27 <quintopia> alise: 1680x1050 is not quite enough to fit entire caterpillar sideways is it :/
22:48:47 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I saw one that cycled through a bunch of nerdly pursuits, including kite-and-dart tiling the screen
22:49:00 <cpressey> That's more nerd crud than I can handle
22:50:23 <quintopia> oh, another neat SS would be one where it zooms into a single random pixel on the last desktop/screen you had open when it kicked it, and that pixel contains an entire color-shifted copy of the original screen in it...recursive zooming forever
22:50:42 <quintopia> not much nerd cred for that tho. it'd just look cool.
22:50:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:51:00 <alise> it'd become solid, though
22:51:38 <quintopia> slowly remove the color shifting as you zoom or something
22:54:52 <cpressey> PowerShell continues to disappoint me. You're all still here.
22:57:21 <alise> cheater: can I hire you as my AI consultant? I have a working framework for it now >__>
23:01:29 <alise> http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2010/10/the-ly-domain-space-to-be-considered-unsafe/ Using domains in the TLDs of countries you can't trust: surprisingly, a bad idea! trust
23:01:37 <alise> tl;dr use .ly, follow sharia law
23:08:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:16:05 <Sgeo> The past that we shared / Lost to the Waves / My journey here / a lifetime ago / and all that I was / is lost, to the waves
23:16:40 -!- cpressey_ has joined.
23:17:16 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:17:38 <Sgeo> Got a lyrics wrong :/
23:17:42 <Sgeo> "The past but a shade"
23:17:46 <Sgeo> That makes more sense
23:26:33 -!- cpressey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:31:05 <alise> Maybe I should start quoting random lyrics!
23:31:21 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:34:23 <oerjan> * olsner watches the waves as they propagate around his abdomen <-- wait were you ircing in the bathtub or something?
23:39:18 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god, Randall Munroe hasn't rehashed Online Communities, has he?
23:39:30 <oerjan> Sgeo will be happy that i noticed Active Worlds in there
23:39:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:44:09 <oerjan> (also i learned something new from the hovertext today)
23:47:05 <oerjan> <cheater99> i could be a girl <-- at this point i wouldn't believe it if you claimed to be
23:50:15 <alise> P(cheater99 is a girl) = minuscule
23:51:08 <oerjan> <cheater99> alise is not female???? <-- i am almost sure this has been pointed out to you before
23:51:50 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:52:21 <oerjan> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh and is "subspace" just a star trek reference, or some game? It is next to MMO Isle, opposite to second life
23:52:27 <oerjan> hm i wondered about that too
23:53:24 <alise> subspace is used in like everything
23:53:35 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SubSpace_(video_game) but somehow I *doubt*
23:53:49 <oerjan> yeah that's the closest i found too
23:54:05 <Sgeo> It has to be under the water for some reason
23:55:15 <oerjan> i am assuming it's not the record label :D
23:55:47 <oerjan> well since it _is_ next to MMO isle i guess it's pretty clear
23:56:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:58:17 <oerjan> > ['a'..'z'] \\ (nub . sort . map toLower) "The quick brown fox jumpwedover my bix sphynx of qwertz."
23:59:05 <Sgeo> > (nub . sort . map toLower) "The quick brown fox jumpwedover my bix sphynx of qwertz."
23:59:42 <alise> cheater: how much to have you consult on AI??
00:00:09 <Sgeo> > ['a'..'z'] \\ (nub . sort . map toLower) "The quick, yet lazy brown fox jumpwedover my bix, doglike sphynx of qwertz."
00:00:53 <alise> oerjan: that was me testing my new keyboard :D
00:01:09 <oerjan> Sgeo: "yet" is redundant
00:01:10 <alise> a blend of jackdaws love... and the quick brown... obvs
00:01:37 <Sgeo> oerjan, letterly, sure, but not semantically
00:06:04 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Image:Sprites.GIF Sherby Tepu
00:06:18 <oerjan> <alise> Things that annoy me: People who get annoyed by too many things.
00:06:30 <oerjan> reminds me of a calvin & hobbes cartoon
00:07:24 <oerjan> (calvin makes a list of things that annoy him, and hobbes suggests "negative people". or something like that.)
00:09:05 <oerjan> alas i read it in norwegian so even if it were on the internet it'd probably be hard to find)
00:09:45 <pikhq> oerjan: I recall that.
00:10:07 <pikhq> That's about the right phrasing.
00:11:18 <oerjan> ah "negative people" was the right phrase
00:14:15 <oerjan> curse bill watterson and his excessive copyright protectivism
00:15:47 <pikhq> Better than being a corporate whore, though. I can at least *respect* a guy who refuses any merchandising on principle.
00:19:34 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Things that annoy me: People who feel the need to get a sense of self-superiority by not complaining about things.
00:19:43 <oerjan> we prefer to kill you in your sleep instead.
00:26:23 <alise> i propose we create war
00:29:59 <alise> oerjan: NO AWESOME
00:30:34 <oerjan> rubbish, you should be shot for making such an idiotic suggestion
00:31:05 <alise> hey oerjan, debracketise this for me, i'm too tired:
00:31:28 <alise> (((A and B) or C) and D)
00:38:34 <alise> Vagrant report: 63 lines, AI is still broken because cheater is moody
00:39:14 <quintopia> holy sit i've been gone two hours and my last message is still on the screen
00:40:53 <quintopia> man, the kind of AI you're doing is easy. why not just do it yourself?
00:40:58 <oerjan> yeah you just brag about your big screen
00:41:00 -!- augur has joined.
00:41:22 <quintopia> oerjan: that was more a jab at everyone's inactivity...
00:41:55 <alise> quintopia: i'm lazy and obfuscated python is a bitch
00:42:08 <alise> i've forgotten what my variables are for
00:42:33 <alise> i swear this is reducible
00:43:06 <oerjan> quintopia: you clearly cannot have been here during the times when it's _really_ silent and all you see is quit/join messages for hours...
00:43:08 <quintopia> alise: it is indeed, reducible, using cheater's o function you refuse to borrow
00:43:28 <quintopia> oerjan: those are off-peak hours. the two hours i was gone were near-peak
00:44:04 <alise> quintopia: what are you, cheater's lawyer? i didn't see that copysign could help
00:44:07 <alise> how can it help here?
00:44:52 <quintopia> i dunno python exactly, so this shall be pseudocode
00:46:33 <quintopia> if abs(X-x)>17 X-=o(1,X-x) should do the work of both the first two lines.
00:46:43 <quintopia> there may be a sign error in there, but i think that's it
00:46:54 <alise> err, wait, what does copysign do again?
00:47:15 <alise> quintopia: then that's the same as cmp(X,x) I think
00:48:09 <quintopia> rename it to a letter to save space :D
00:49:15 <alise> quintopia: it works, thanks!
00:49:17 <quintopia> at the cost of the define operation
00:49:25 <alise> if abs(X-x)>17:X+=cmp(x,X)
00:49:26 <alise> if abs(Y-y)>5:X+=cmp(y,Y)
00:49:44 <alise> quintopia: well i use cmp elsewhere, albeit in broken ai code
00:49:56 <alise> but 1, I have very few letters left, and 2, i use range more often (four times)
00:49:58 <alise> and that has a longer name
00:50:00 <alise> so it'd take priority
00:50:21 <oerjan> alise: 17< and 5< to save a space, surely?
00:50:34 <alise> oerjan: how does that save a space, exactly?
00:50:44 <quintopia> alise: can you use extended ascii in var names?
00:51:20 <quintopia> alise: what do those lines do that they shouldn't?
00:51:40 <alise> X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y)
00:51:58 <alise> this works, unbelievably
00:52:03 <alise> take that, four lines
00:52:18 <alise> quintopia: yeah i abuse integers-as-booleans and vice versa so much in this program :P
00:52:25 <alise> q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(T)if U and r(0,2)==0 and q-32 else q)
00:52:29 <alise> q-32 for q!=32? why not
00:52:35 <alise> def Q(x,p=0):global V;v=V;V=lambda:(v()and C(x)or p)and s.getkey()
00:52:39 <alise> because fuck you, using def is too long
00:53:06 <quintopia> then i'm not seeing how that works
00:53:11 <oerjan> doesn't python have && ?
00:53:21 <alise> negatives are true too
00:53:39 <alise> it *does* have bitwise and
00:53:50 <alise> which is shockingly defined on booleans
00:54:10 <quintopia> alise: i don't see how 17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X) ever returns -1?
00:54:18 <quintopia> explain to this python non-knowing person
00:54:25 <alise> quintopia: cmp is -1 if less
00:54:41 <alise> True and x = x, even if x is a horse, not a boolean
00:55:01 <alise> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for &: 'int' and 'NoneType'
00:55:13 <quintopia> but never seen and return non-bools
00:56:55 <alise> i wonder if there's a better way to write
00:57:04 <alise> i.e. inc S only if S>=0
00:58:35 -!- cpressey has joined.
00:59:06 <alise> quintopia: you mean -=
00:59:27 <quintopia> well, your code said minus, but your text afterward said increment
00:59:49 <alise> also er >0 obviously
01:00:19 <alise> assignments aren't expressions
01:00:39 <alise> i am pretty proud with how tiny this code is
01:00:47 <alise> i scroll through it all and think "that's it??"
01:00:56 <quintopia> i've never done python, but it already seems really strange
01:00:59 <alise> quintopia: yes, but you can put anything that doesn't have a ; in it on the right of =
01:01:12 <alise> no, python's basically just the most boring language ever, on purpose
01:01:22 <alise> you have to be cunning, like me, to do perverse things
01:01:28 <quintopia> duck typing isn't all that boring actually
01:01:59 <oerjan> that's because you're a quack
01:02:02 <pikhq> Yeah, Python focuses on not being surprising. And it succeeds at that.
01:02:20 <quintopia> alise: can i see a current snapshot?
01:02:32 <pikhq> Problem being that interesting things are often surprising. :)
01:03:02 <quintopia> pikhq: you can be interesting and surprising even given the most mundane material to work with
01:03:03 <alise> no python violates POLS a lot
01:03:09 <alise> Ruby doesn't so much
01:03:26 <alise> python is very surprising, but if you do boring stuff it's ... boring like you expect
01:03:26 <quintopia> ruby i have played with. i like it a lot. it's neat.
01:03:31 <alise> quintopia: http://pastie.org/1204286.txt?key=iqxs2n6fgidpua9mnwpbrw
01:03:35 <alise> quintopia: complete with broken ai
01:03:38 <alise> (from q=w.copy() to w=q)
01:03:52 <alise> quintopia: debug.py:
01:04:00 <alise> def hook(t,v,b):endwin();sys.__excepthook__(t,v,b)
01:04:00 <alise> sys.excepthook=hook
01:04:00 <alise> execfile('vagrant.py')
01:04:09 <alise> if you modify the code at all, this is vital; it lets you see exceptions
01:04:20 <alise> the normal script calls endwin() and they get sucked up before they're displayed
01:04:51 <pikhq> alise: But it's quite surprising for a modern language to actually not violate POLS. :P
01:05:17 <alise> quintopia: endwin() resets the terminal and all the curses stuff goes
01:05:26 <alise> but it's in an exit handler
01:05:32 <alise> which is called *after* the exception is displayed
01:05:34 <alise> meaning it gets sucked up
01:06:12 <quintopia> well, i wasn't planning on running it just yet...just look
01:06:30 <alise> quintopia: it only wipes your hard drive if you want
01:06:33 <alise> if you do, controls are trivial
01:06:37 <alise> vikeys to move including diagonals
01:06:48 <alise> everything else pauses
01:07:06 <alise> ! is potion, # wall (cube of impenetrable yet transparent glass -- you can see beyond it!)
01:07:18 <alise> % is food (just walk into it; 1/15 chance of tripping balls)
01:07:32 <alise> Q is hopelessly confused, nonviolent monsters; if you want rid of one, walk into it
01:07:51 <alise> S is satiation, run out and you die quickly, eat to stop that
01:08:15 <alise> going into a ! will add to your potion-meter, displayed in parens next to HP; q to move 20 or whatever you have if it's less from potion meter to HP meter
01:08:27 <alise> most everything is random so i can't give specific values.
01:10:09 <alise> if S<1:L=max(L-25,0)
01:10:28 <alise> if S<1:L-=(L>0)*25
01:10:31 <alise> unbelievably, shorter
01:11:01 <cpressey> if you come to Python from a language with block scope you will be surprised, oh yes.
01:12:26 <alise> another simplification
01:12:34 <alise> quintopia: thanks for making my brain realise that works
01:12:41 <cpressey> seeing this makes me want to design a golfing language
01:12:43 <quintopia> alise: so there's no model behind the view? if you walk onto something, it ceases to exist?
01:13:01 <alise> quintopia: well there is one bit of model, your x and y
01:13:07 <alise> would be way too much work to find you every turn :P
01:13:17 <alise> quintopia: also you *could* store an inventory
01:13:21 <quintopia> cpressey: isn't that what perl is for?
01:13:23 <alise> but it'd be a bit of a bitch
01:13:39 <alise> if S<1:L-=(L>0)*25
01:13:39 <alise> if S<1 and L:L-=25
01:13:59 <alise> coolness or sanity... HMMMM
01:14:04 <cpressey> quintopia: it's what flogscript is for, literally, but i haven't checked it out yet.
01:15:03 <alise> cpressey: golfscript too
01:15:07 <alise> cpressey: no it does not
01:15:55 <alise> oh hm you forgot to include L in that conditional
01:16:03 <oerjan> alise: L-=25*(S<1 and L) perhaps?
01:16:08 <alise> L-=S<1 and(L>0)*25
01:16:57 <alise> after a ) or ' or " pretty much
01:16:59 <cpressey> oerjan's is shorter by one whole character!
01:17:11 <cpressey> and wtf does "1and" not work, guido?
01:17:34 <oerjan> alise: oh wait it nneds to be (L and S<1), not?
01:17:58 <alise> thank you good sir
01:18:08 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
01:18:15 <alise> should be around the same size with working AI, too
01:18:46 <quintopia> holy shit. you've come down a whole 3 characters on that one line in the last 15 minutes!\
01:19:12 <alise> how many pages of code is 58 lines? (one wraps)
01:19:32 <alise> whatever it is, it's remarkably playable. moreso when the monsters get a brain
01:19:38 <alise> quintopia: i dunno, people measure in pages of code all the time
01:20:00 <quintopia> usually, it's print out in 12pt monospace font
01:20:43 <oerjan> what's that o function again
01:21:01 <cpressey> istr a "page" being sixtysome, by some printer's reckoning
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01:21:40 <alise> the math module did
01:21:47 <alise> oerjan: copysign(x,+n)=+x
01:22:01 <alise> copysign(x,n) = x sgn(n)
01:22:23 <cpressey> copysign is either a very lame function or a very cool function. i cannot decide.
01:23:14 <quintopia> since one can define it as x and x/abs(x)
01:23:52 <alise> i see quintopia has assimilated the crazy and notation :P
01:24:11 <alise> hallu in my game is so hardcore
01:24:13 <quintopia> which makes copysign x and x*x/abs(x)
01:24:17 <alise> now, this silliness shall continue, but tomorrow!
01:24:26 <quintopia> i like syntactic sugars, i must admit
01:24:30 <pikhq> WHO USES and FOR WHATEVER THE HELL THAT IS?
01:24:48 <alise> pikhq: x and y = y if x != 0, otherwise 0
01:24:50 <cpressey> x and x/abs(x) may be going a bit far, I agree
01:25:00 <alise> pikhq: the reason: i'm using it in my crazy golfed roguelike
01:25:02 <alise> because it's short!
01:25:05 <quintopia> pikhq: short-circuiting for fun and profit has been around since C was invented
01:25:17 <alise> quintopia: so why did it surprise you?
01:25:21 <alise> just not used to python doing it?
01:25:24 <cpressey> is there a name for "short-circuit and evaluate to" like this, though?
01:25:34 <alise> cpressey: ruby too
01:25:41 <quintopia> well, i'm not used to it behaving /precisely/ like that
01:25:47 <alise> it totally does quintopia
01:25:54 <pikhq> quintopia: Buuut "x and y" as "x ? y : 0"? What crazy crack is that?
01:25:55 <alise> y if x is true otherwise x
01:26:08 <alise> perl, ruby, python, lua
01:26:10 <alise> everything does it
01:26:12 <quintopia> pikhq: yeah i know. that's the part that surprised me
01:26:15 <alise> every dynamic scripting language, more or less
01:26:35 <cpressey> that lnguage with the same name as one of the TRON characters
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01:27:00 <Sgeo> Is the humble indie bundle server down?
01:27:02 <Sgeo> FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUu
01:27:19 <pikhq> I can totally access IPv6 Google. \o/
01:27:35 <cpressey> i think clu introduced it, or at least, claimed to have
01:27:42 <cpressey> wait, is that a TRON character?
01:28:03 <oerjan> alas it seems to require dynamic typing
01:28:16 <cpressey> b/c wp has a page "List of Tron Characters"
01:29:03 <oerjan> since either x or y can be returned, and x needs to be something treatable as a boolean
01:30:03 <cpressey> "Bit is a character from the movie Tron. Representing a bit (binary digit), it was only capable of providing yes or no answers to any question. Despite this it still managed to convey emotion and other levels of complexity."
01:30:36 <cpressey> oerjan: that doesn't require dynamic typing
01:30:54 <oerjan> well i'm sure you _could_ define a suitable haskell typeclass :D
01:30:59 <cpressey> for every type t there is a function t -> bool
01:31:23 <oerjan> but i don't think there's a common one that quite fits
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01:31:52 <cpressey> that is kind of the problem with truthiness
01:32:02 <cpressey> i have yet to get used to the fact that in Python, [] is false
01:34:16 <oerjan> class Truthy a where truthiness :: a -> Bool
01:36:07 <oerjan> cpressey: surely that's borrowed from lisp
01:39:50 <cpressey> oerjan: possibly, but both perl and lua treat empty list(/table) as true
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02:41:15 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
02:41:26 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
02:42:02 <cpressey> did we ever get factor onto this puppy?
02:43:22 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
02:43:27 <fungot> cpressey: i can hear you typing. i don't
02:44:10 <oerjan> cpressey: i think someone said factor was removed again for some reason
02:44:37 <cpressey> HackEgo: what is your control introducer character
02:45:36 <EgoBot> /sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin
02:45:41 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: cannot access /sbin: No such file or directory
02:45:58 <oerjan> !sh ls /bin | fmt -w400 | head -1
02:46:03 <EgoBot> bash bunzip2 busybox bzcat bzcmp bzdiff bzegrep bzexe bzfgrep bzgrep bzip2 bzip2recover bzless bzmore cat chgrp chmod chown chvt cp cpio date dd df dir dmesg dnsdomainname domainname dumpkeys echo ed egrep false fgconsole fgrep fuser grep gunzip gzexe gzip hostname ip kbd_mode kill less lessecho lessfile lesskey lesspipe ln loadkeys login ls lsmod mkdir mknod mktemp more
02:48:06 <cpressey> @tell Gregor please make your bots slightly less user-hostile than OpenBSD
02:48:31 <Gregor> Doood, my bots are so not hostile at all :P
02:48:31 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:48:53 <Gregor> lambdabot: SHUT UP NOÖNE CARES
02:48:54 <cpressey> I was going to say "more user-friendly" but... yeah
02:49:13 <oerjan> it seems to have ignored some of cpressey's messages
02:49:52 <cpressey> see, what it could do there is say "screw you cpressey, i have no symbol table entry for this 'ping' of which you speak"
02:51:02 <EgoBot> [1,2,3] :: (Num t) => [t]
02:53:19 <EgoBot> (>>=) :: (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
02:56:06 <cpressey> what happens if bind is "overspecified" as: m a -> (a -> m a) -> m a ?
02:56:16 <cpressey> kind of like, once you pick a type, you're stuck with it?
03:01:35 <oerjan> um yeah but that wouldn't give a legal Monad instance, a and b must vary freely
03:02:08 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
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03:04:38 <oerjan> the forall syntax is an extension for "higher-rank" types, in basic haskell it's implicitly applied in front of all type declarations
03:05:25 <oerjan> :t runST -- a function which uses a second-rank type
03:05:53 <oerjan> (for particularly magical purposes btw)
03:16:34 <oerjan> omg he's really a tree!
03:32:49 <quintopia> didn't expect much there anyway...
03:34:02 <pikhq> "320 kbps" STOP DOING THAT IT IS RAPE OF YOUR MP3 ENCODER
03:34:45 <lambdabot> cpressey said 46m 39s ago: please make your bots slightly less user-hostile than OpenBSD
03:34:58 <Gregor> Haw, no /msg for YOUUUUUUU
03:35:18 <Gregor> pikhq: #esoteric does NOT HAVE ENOUGH BOTS
03:35:33 <pikhq> Is #esoteric on the regular lambdabot join list now?
03:36:27 <oerjan> i vaguely recall a comment to effect of "no promise it will stay", so probably not
03:38:45 <cpressey> i guess i should be writin' up another, gratuitous bot to run here eh
03:39:29 <oerjan> which for obvious reasons should be called cpbot
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03:58:15 <coppro> we killed commies: http://bit.ly/aP8qdB
04:03:01 -!- cpressey has changed nick to mzstorkipiwanbot.
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04:05:36 <oerjan> well i guess that means we'll soon find out if we're on the join list
04:07:27 <pikhq> oerjan: BTW: http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/
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04:11:21 <oerjan> huh so it actually has some net presence
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04:11:31 <Sgeo> I always said those mutant traitors were ugly
04:12:58 <oerjan> so not quite as bad as Larson, iiuc
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04:15:03 <cpressey> the cheatsheet alise gave me for writing an ircbot isn't working
04:16:30 <cpressey> i need to have registered to join #esoteric?
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04:18:58 <oerjan> pikhq: i cannot seem to find the one i mentioned before - at least "negative people" gives no hits
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04:20:25 <cpressey> Gregor: I do nc to irc.freenode.net
04:20:40 <cpressey> and it tells me I'm not registered
04:20:50 <cpressey> even though I just registered too
04:21:49 <Gregor> There are steps between NICK and JOIN
04:21:53 <Gregor> Actually, before NICK IIRC.
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04:23:11 <oerjan> pikhq: i guess they have no searchable transcripts, only some tags
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04:23:40 <Gregor> Ahyeah, you figured that out before I did :P
04:32:33 <quintopia> how to write an IRC bot: Start with PircBot and then worry about writing the actual functionality.
04:33:42 <cpressey> but if i do it manually, it works
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04:52:50 <cpressey> oh foo. i bet it's because stdout is buffer, eh what?
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04:54:00 <oerjan> yeah i'm pretty sure you need at least line buffering
04:54:00 <grha> :oerjan: I disagree!
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04:54:23 <oerjan> wow a run-by argument :D
04:54:59 <cpressey> It was PRIVMSGing itself ("I disagree!") in a loop so I killed it.
04:55:19 <oerjan> oh that and wawawa were your bot?
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04:56:43 <cpressey> everything up to grha was me trying to figure out why my bot wasn't working
04:56:53 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: You're my bot!
04:57:10 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: You're a very sophisticated bot.
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04:58:32 <cpressey> also, slap me for writing it in python, but it was convenient.
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05:11:28 <Gregor> You might want to test that in some channel other than #esoteric 'til it works :P
05:12:17 <cpressey> Gregor: How do I send a multi-word PRIVMSG to a user?
05:12:31 <Gregor> PRIVMSG username :Stuff
05:12:47 <Gregor> That generalizes: If you start an argument with ":", that means the argument continues to the end of the line.
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05:14:30 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: Hi. I see you registered with NickServ! Good for you!
05:18:11 <cpressey> you know mzstorkipiwanbot, i'm a-gonna teach you to execute scheme. and feel pain
05:18:38 <oerjan> mzstorkipiwanbot: oh dear your creator is a megalomaniac!
05:19:15 <oerjan> well it's your problem
05:19:23 <Sgeo> mzstorkipiwanbot, I should not be crowned King of the Universe.
05:19:32 <Sgeo> mzstorkipiwanbot: I should not be crowned King of the Universe.
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05:24:21 <cpressey> so I need to respond to pings or something?
05:25:50 <lament> that's what it means to feel pain, for an irc bot
05:26:27 <GreaseMonkey> now say that in toki pona (or whatever it's called)
05:27:47 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: Toki Pona.
05:28:12 * pikhq should devise a kanji mapping scheme for that
05:28:15 <GreaseMonkey> <lament> that's what it means to feel pain, for an irc bot <-- !translate english toki-pona
05:29:47 <pikhq> Thus creating an overly complex orthography for an overly simple language.
05:30:11 <pikhq> Okay, so it'd be much less complex when there's only 118 characters. Still.
05:30:53 <lament> ilo nanpa toki pi tomo toki li pilin ike kepeken ni.
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05:41:28 <cpressey> i guess I could just say PONG :unknown and it accepts it
05:41:45 <cpressey> but i went through the whole rigamarole of figuring out what my hostname is anyway
05:46:37 <GreaseMonkey> i have a feeling you're supposed to just bounce the message back with one letter changed
05:48:37 <cpressey> so I should say PONG :gogol.freenode.net? that seems... ingracious
05:48:37 <GreaseMonkey> although if it doesn't accept what you bang back in whatever valid format, it's probably a screwed up server
05:48:55 <GreaseMonkey> you should take the message, change the PING to PONG, and send it back
05:49:37 <cpressey> experimentation indicates it doesn't care
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06:22:04 <pikhq> Why don't the TLDs have A records?
06:22:33 <pikhq> Rather, why don't they *all* have A records?
06:22:38 <coppro> because no website is "com"?
06:23:12 <cpressey> typing http://com/ into firefox takes me to cnet
06:23:36 <cpressey> http://www.cnet.com/ to be precise
06:23:41 <pikhq> Probably taking you to com.com.
06:23:42 <cpressey> i wonder how they finagled that
06:24:23 <pikhq> And com has no A record, so Firefox tries adding .com.
06:24:58 <pikhq> But seriously, why not just have the A record point to the site of the operator of the TLD?
06:25:35 <pikhq> (and the AAAA record, of course)
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06:27:06 <pikhq> Hmm. http://例え.テスト/ is a real thing.
06:29:28 <cpressey> indeed yes. running mediawiki!
06:30:41 <pikhq> Hooray, truly internationalised TLDs.
06:31:22 <cpressey> the mix of LtoR and RtoL in the URL is disconcerting
06:32:40 <pikhq> Mixed text is a bit disconcerting.
06:32:50 <pikhq> But, it's accepted practice for RtoL scripts, so...
06:33:07 <pikhq> Huh. Antarctica has a TLD.
06:38:41 <Ilari> aq. 86400 IN SOA ns1.dns.aq. noc.swizzle.co.nz. 2010100201 28000 3600 604800 86400
06:40:12 <Vorpal> I'd like a zone transfer on aq!
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06:49:05 <Ilari> BE BG BIZ BR CAT CH CZ DK EDU EU FR INFO LC LI LK MUSEUM NA NU ORG PM PR PT RE SE TF TH TM UK US VC YT
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06:53:04 <Ilari> (the TLDs that have DS records in root zone, no AQ in there...) :-/
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06:54:03 <Ilari> (actually, non IDN ones...)
06:54:13 <coppro> wootwoot, I proved a hard proof for marks
06:54:31 <coppro> and as I sort of expected, it's really elegant in the end :)
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08:11:03 <fizzie> "Cat Head Detection - How to Effectively Exploit Shape and Texture Features" -- http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/jiansun/papers/ECCV08_CatDetection.pdf
08:11:12 <fizzie> Microsoft Research: bleeding-edge cat detection.
08:11:34 <fizzie> "Second, people love cats. A large amount of cat images have been uploaded and shared on the web. For example, 2,594,329 cat images had been manually annotated in flickr.com by users. Cat photos are among the most popular animal photos on the internet."
08:19:30 <Quadlex> I'm pretty sure felix domesticus is native to the internet
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11:23:41 <fungot> ais523: i found something which _might_ work on win98? dunno... :)
11:24:05 <fungot> ais523: lea is a dirty open source hippie commies? yes you can
11:25:36 <ais523> hmm, IRC's working fine, but the DNS seems to have gone down
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12:48:05 <ais523> any news? anything up-and-coming in the world of esolanging?
12:48:20 <ais523> I think I invented a new esolang last night, I may have to tweak it if it turns out to be sub-TC (although I think it's TC)
12:48:50 <quintipod> Esolanging? Nahhh. I am going caving and camping starting this afternoon and lasting all weekend though
12:49:12 <ais523> Slereah: a cross between http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sansism and http://esolangs.org/wiki/1L
12:56:32 <quintipod> My favorite esolang right now is Minecraft
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13:12:18 <ais523> hmm, I was just looking over my old esoprograms
13:12:47 <ais523> I'm amused by the "tenloop" in Unassignable, that exists to make a single decimal digit
13:13:35 <ais523> it's implemented as a three-bit number, and a four-bit number; the three-bit number adds/subtracts 6 to the four-bit number when it overflows/underflows, the four-bit number subtracts/adds 2 to the three-bit number when it overflows/underflows
13:28:19 <ais523> hmm, who's 79.75.203.167? they wrote a P'' interp in INTERCAL, to prove it TC
13:28:23 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's someone in this channel
13:28:40 <ais523> in fact, I was wondering whether it was me to start with, but that isn't my IP
13:29:01 <ais523> also, I probably wouldn't have used CLC-INTERCAL
13:30:10 -!- alise has joined.
13:30:28 <alise> Dreaming is illegal
13:48:51 <alise> "Worcestershire sauce, the popular English sauce, is made from dissolved anchovies. The anchovies are soaked in vinegar until they have completely melted. The sauce contains the bones and all."
13:48:54 <alise> did not know; did not want to know
13:51:38 <Vorpal> hm, why is the heart often associated with love? I mean, biologically that is nonsense as far as I know...
13:52:43 <Vorpal> if it is just a leftover from before people knew that (which seems probable), then two new questions arise:
13:52:52 <Vorpal> 1) why would anyone think it was related to love in the first place
13:52:56 <alise> hey, you deduced the obvious and called it probable, congrats
13:53:00 <alise> Vorpal: because you think with your heart.
13:53:16 <alise> (no, you don't think with your brain, that just coordinates the body a bit, why would you think that?)
13:53:20 <Vorpal> 2) why is it still used as a symbol for love
13:53:23 <alise> (the heart is the main part of the body, you think with it)
13:53:36 <alise> 2) why do we still celebrate halloween?
13:53:54 <Vorpal> alise, well, I don't know. We don't where I live :P
13:53:56 <alise> why do we still use elements of things that we as a whole reject
13:53:56 <ais523> for an entirely different reason than we originally celebrated halloween
13:54:06 <alise> precisely, and we don't *really* think the heart loves
13:54:09 <ais523> more or less like Christmas has changed in meaning over the years
13:54:15 <alise> also, hearts don't look like <3!
13:54:24 <ais523> nowadays, it's just an indication of trick-or-treating and NetHack tournaments
13:54:43 <alise> The heart has long been used as a symbol to refer to the spiritual, emotional, moral, and in the past also intellectual core of a human being. As the heart was once widely believed to be the seat of the human mind, the word heart continues to be used poetically to refer to the soul, and stylized depictions of hearts are used as prevalent symbols representing love.
13:54:59 <Vorpal> alise, why didn't love end up getting associated with, say, the liver?
13:55:05 <alise> because you don't think with your liver
13:55:05 <Vorpal> it seems equally random
13:55:07 <alise> your liver just sits tehre
13:55:16 <alise> you can hear your heart going, it's near where you talk and stuff
13:55:34 <Vorpal> okay that seems like a plausible logic for it
13:55:52 <alise> The Roman physician Galen located the seat of the passions in the liver, the seat of reason in the brain, and considered the heart to be the seat of the emotions. While Galen's identification of the heart with emotion were proposed as a part of his theory of the circulatory system, the heart has continued to be used as a symbolic source of human emotions even after the rejection of such beliefs.[2]
13:55:56 <alise> "seat of passions in the liver"
13:56:04 <alise> Vorpal: i reject your question, it makes a false assumption!
13:56:06 <Vorpal> alise, I swear I didn't know about that one :P
13:56:10 <alise> we DID think that! or at least, something relatively close to that
13:56:12 <alise> lust not love i guess
13:56:22 <Vorpal> alise, anyone thought it was in the spleen?
13:56:39 <alise> (but no, i don't think anyone did, historically)
13:56:48 <alise> but then I didn't think anyone would place passion inside the liver, either
13:57:19 <Vorpal> I just picked a random organ in the torso above
13:58:32 <Vorpal> alise, btw, what did they think the brain was for back when they thought you used the heart to think with?
13:58:51 <alise> not much. like the liver
13:59:08 <alise> maybe it just relays stuff. if they even had a concept of signals being sent around then
13:59:13 <alise> or maybe it just regulates some random thing or another
14:00:15 <ais523> hmm, this phishing 419 spam (claiming to be from Benin, rather than Nigeria) is asking for the answers to a list of questions I don't even understand
14:00:41 <ais523> they want "Your. " Receiver, Country, City, Tel, Test question, Answer, and Passport
14:01:47 <alise> sounds Benin to me
14:02:03 <ais523> I mean, how do I send my passport via email?
14:02:08 <ais523> how do I know what the question is?
14:02:10 <Vorpal> ais523, put it in the floppy drive?
14:02:34 <ais523> maybe I'll photograph it on a wooden table, screenshot Photoshop with the photo open, paste it into Word and send that
14:02:38 <alise> This keyboard has surprisingly good tactile response for Logitech.
14:02:41 <alise> Although I'm still getting used to it...
14:02:44 <alise> And it's a bit loud :)
14:02:56 <Vorpal> ais523, as for "Receiver", they presumably want a scan of your TV receiver antenna or such?
14:02:59 <ais523> (where by "maybe" I mean "there's no chance that")
14:03:22 <ais523> presumably they're going to ignore the answers anyway, they're just looking for someone who responds to 419 scams
14:03:40 <alise> ais523: no love for "whereby"?
14:03:56 <alise> kind-of, where by, you are strange :)
14:04:07 <ais523> "whereby" means something else, doesn't it?
14:04:09 <Vorpal> ais523, because anyone _still_ doing that would have to be faking it?
14:04:17 <ais523> Vorpal: you'd be surprised
14:04:24 <alise> ais523: whereby = by which
14:04:43 <alise> definitely, whereby makes sense ehre
14:04:52 <ais523> a couple of days ago (I think when clog was down, not sure) I commented on a reddit commenter who said that when parked domains full of ads were visited, they had a clickthrough rate of above 50% as there was nothing else to click on
14:04:55 <alise> Other heads saw devolution as a whole new way of life and adopted an approach whereby the power of devolution was used to enable the school to drive the ...
14:04:56 <alise> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/wikt:whereby - Cached
14:04:59 <alise> x was used to enable y
14:05:04 <ais523> because most people didn't realise it wasn't the site they wanted to visit
14:05:04 <alise> x was used to mean y
14:05:08 <alise> maybe you're right.
14:05:18 <alise> I think "where by" is just as incorrect, though, if it is indeed incorrect
14:05:35 <alise> ais523: hasn't hit me yet
14:05:37 <ais523> (I know that a while back, when a quirk in Google made a newspaper story the top search result for Facebook, several people tried to log into Facebook via its comment form)
14:05:44 <Vorpal> <alise> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/wikt:whereby - Cached <-- wikt: ?
14:06:08 <Vorpal> isn't that a separate domain?
14:08:05 <Vorpal> ais523, how many is several? Also, I wonder how bad this is and how much is selective reporting. There has to be lots of cases where some google result ordering quirk did *not* cause similar effects.
14:08:25 <Vorpal> and presumably the majority didn't get confused
14:08:43 <Vorpal> or at least if they did, didn't try to log in using the comment system
14:09:09 <fizzie> "Several" was rather surprisingly many, if I remember the case right. Certainly not the majority, though.
14:09:20 <Vorpal> probably facebook is just large enough that on average you will get a handful of morons. And handful will be rather large.
14:09:31 <Vorpal> (large in absolute numbers I mean)
14:10:00 <Vorpal> are there any public figures on how many users facebook have?
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14:10:14 <alise> Vorpal: millions and millions.
14:10:28 <alise> 500 million ACTIVE users, it seems
14:10:39 <alise> "which is about one person for every fourteen in the world" --Wikipedia
14:10:42 <Vorpal> how do they count active? last 30 days? last 60?
14:10:51 <alise> but whatever it is, it's impressive
14:10:58 <fizzie> "When hundreds of clueless commenters decided mid-February that ReadWriteWeb was the place to log in to Facebook, --" so several is at least hundreds.
14:11:00 <alise> (1) thanks for the division, Wikipedia; (2) no sorry that actually is a useful statistic I just had to make that joke
14:11:53 <Vorpal> >>> (500 / 500000000.0)*100
14:11:53 <Vorpal> 9.9999999999999991e-05
14:12:17 <Vorpal> that is assuming hundreds = 500
14:12:50 <ais523> "To accomplish this, Zuckerberg hacked into the protected areas of Harvard's computer network and copied the houses' private dormitory ID images."
14:13:22 <alise> Facebook, dedicated to your privacy since day one.
14:13:39 <ais523> how the predecessor to Facebook got its info
14:13:41 <alise> Vorpal: Zuckerberg founded Facebook
14:13:48 <ais523> that site had to close down, and Facebook was founded in its place
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14:14:02 <Vorpal> I'm not surprised it had to close down
14:14:06 <alise> ais523: Kind of scary that Harvard's network is vulnerable like that...
14:14:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: Though "hundreds" might just be the amount who actually said something. I mean, the case was that the article's commentary page had a "sign in with Facebook" thing, and people signed in, then wrote stuff to the "comments" box; presumably there are at least some who logged in and actually realized "hey, this is not facebook".
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14:14:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, would "sign in with facebook" be openid or?
14:15:36 <fizzie> This was early 2010, I think Facebook's OpenID joining is a later thing? I don't really know how they do inter-a-graterion.
14:15:52 <Vorpal> also python's floating point rounding for output sucks badly
14:16:05 <ais523> Vorpal: it's Facebook Connect; vaguely like OpenID, except limited to Facebook
14:16:10 <ais523> this is, ofc, a bad idea
14:16:12 <ais523> but nobody seems to care
14:16:19 <Vorpal> ais523, hm. Does facebook provide openid as well or?
14:16:35 <Vorpal> so why roll their own system
14:16:40 <ais523> could you make Facebook Connect into an OpenID provider?
14:16:46 <alise> more people sign up for facebook to use facebook connect.
14:16:47 <ais523> or would that violate Facebook's rules?
14:16:50 <alise> more people think "facebook" more often
14:16:52 <ais523> (it's probably technically possible)
14:16:57 <alise> more people think "yes -- i am using my facebook" when using it
14:17:08 <alise> ais523: when Facebook Connect first came out, I decided I *really* hated Facebook for killing OpenID
14:17:20 <alise> you can probably make it into an openid provider
14:17:22 <Vorpal> ais523, do you use any sort of openid btw?
14:17:23 <ais523> alise: I hate Google Accounts just as much
14:17:25 <alise> but why would you want to?
14:17:32 <alise> ais523: google accounts are exposed as openIDs, at least
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14:17:49 <alise> ais523: which makes it more acceptable
14:18:08 <alise> (and you can't use google accounts on a non-App Engine site without using the OpenID solution, so that's promotion in a sense)
14:18:14 <alise> whereas facebook connect is an outright competitor to openid
14:18:29 <ais523> alise: my issue is the reverse, there's sites that allow Google accounts to log in, but not OpenID
14:18:37 <ais523> so you have to create a Google account to log in there
14:18:45 <fizzie> Twitter can be used as a Facebook Connect/OpenID -like thing, too; the ReadWriteWeb comment page currently lets you login via Facebook Connect, Twitter, or any OpenID provider.
14:18:47 <alise> ais523: well, only (1) Google sites (and this is not too surprising), and (2) sites on App Engine
14:19:01 <alise> (2) is unfortunate, but you can hardly expect Google not to provide an interface to their accounts API from one of their big services,
14:19:03 <ais523> alise: (1) isn't too surprising, but still annoying
14:19:08 <alise> and (1) is understandable if imperfect
14:19:17 <alise> it's sure as hell a lot better than facebook
14:19:30 <ais523> because if I log in to use Google Groups, I have to log out again and clear cookies to use Google search, if I want results that are relatively neutral
14:19:35 <Vorpal> openid is nice in theory, but there are a number of issues with it 1) trusting the provider you use to not abuse it and run a secure system 2) trust them not to suddenly go bankrupt
14:19:41 <ais523> rather than being attemptedly tailored to my interests
14:19:41 <Vorpal> okay you could run your own openid server
14:19:44 <Vorpal> but that is a lot of work
14:20:25 <alise> Vorpal: it is not a lot of work
14:20:29 <alise> you copy like two files and edit one file
14:20:36 <alise> there's no "server"
14:20:42 <alise> also, there are solutions to (1) and (2)
14:20:48 <alise> you can put headers on your personal web page
14:20:53 <alise> that point to an openid provider
14:20:56 <alise> then use your web page as an openid
14:20:59 <alise> swapping providers at will
14:21:12 <Vorpal> encrypted local keyring is my preferred solution, of course if you often use public computers and such that wouldn't be very convenient, but in any case you need to trust those systems not to have keyloggers installed, so they are a bad solution in any case.
14:21:25 <Vorpal> and you have to ensure backup and such of course
14:22:09 <alise> ais523: I actually wrote a thing to expose Google Accounts to non-App Engine websites in 2008. Apologies, but, in my defence, it was intended solely to implement an OpenID provider with, before Google offered OpenID.
14:22:23 <fizzie> Facebook's a sponsoring member of the OpenID Foundation, anyway, so you see, they're helping in their way.
14:22:27 <Vorpal> alise, I remember that
14:22:28 <alise> (gaccproxy.appspot.com; in my defence, that's a perfectly acceptable non-HTTP-exclusive domain name!)
14:22:29 <ais523> as long as you didn't force people to use it, I don't mind
14:22:53 <alise> i posted it on reddit and argued with people who called it the END OF SECURITY and things like that but i don't think anyone actually used it
14:22:58 <alise> also, the example site is long-dead now
14:23:03 <alise> it ran on eso-std.org
14:23:16 <alise> (just to prove it works :P)
14:23:54 <alise> the code is a little ugly iirc
14:24:05 <alise> but contains enough random numbers and verification to be fun
14:24:08 <Vorpal> ais523, don't those sites also allow creating an account and using username/password?
14:24:19 <Vorpal> ais523, like the "conventional" solution to login
14:24:27 <alise> Vorpal: instead of FB Connect?
14:24:46 <Vorpal> alise, instead of fb connect/google accounts/openid
14:24:52 <alise> <fizzie> Facebook's a sponsoring member of the OpenID Foundation, anyway, so you see, they're helping in their way.
14:25:12 <alise> I forget how ITV is structured, but the BBC at least used to partly own it
14:25:33 <alise> Vorpal: google accounts -- not really, sites that use it are on app engine, and what's the point if you have to write auth code too?
14:25:39 <alise> FB connect -- most but not all
14:25:54 <alise> openid -- most offer registration, but only because OpenID is sadly neglected
14:25:58 <Vorpal> alise, remember that thing about gmail accounts getting hacked. China was involved iirc. Now, I'm sure the risk is extremely slim for that, but not even google is 100% secure, nothing is.
14:26:01 <alise> Jyte doesn't but then it's a Jan Rain site
14:26:22 <alise> Vorpal: did anyone actually connect that to China?
14:26:30 <ais523> hmm, my Firefox was going crazy then
14:26:42 <alise> and indeed, nothing is really secure; you are far too paranoid because there are weak links far before you
14:26:46 <ais523> it wasn't responding to any input, which often happens; /but/ if I resized the window, it redrew everything accordingly
14:26:54 <alise> such as your bank, say.
14:27:11 <Vorpal> alise, the IPs were from there iirc, and the accounts belonged to people the regime didn't like.
14:27:22 <Vorpal> so um, not connect for certain
14:27:32 <alise> ais523: anyone remember when resizing Netscape used to redraw everything? 'cause I don't
14:28:09 <ais523> alise: I remember that with pre-Firefox Mozilla
14:28:10 <Vorpal> alise, I remember that
14:28:26 <Vorpal> pretty sure navigator 3 did that too?
14:30:14 <Vorpal> alise, and indeed the bank isn't completely secure... It certainly worries me.
14:30:39 <alise> Vorpal: you do realise that you're so boring, nobody would ever want to compromise your security?
14:31:31 <Vorpal> alise, stop trolling, it's just pathetic :P
14:33:26 <Vorpal> alise, still banks use security tokens and such. Reasonably secure.
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14:39:44 <ais523> alise: I rarely bother with really strong levels of security, except when I'm safeguarding information for someone else
14:39:56 <ais523> in which case I expend effort to not be the weakest link in the chain
14:40:10 <alise> I still use the same password everywhere, which I *really* want to change.
14:40:16 <alise> But it's such a huge undertaking.
14:41:05 <Vorpal> alise, a good keychain program + master password? then you can stop using it for new ones and also can change old ones as you run across them?
14:41:39 <alise> I just need to figure out how to get one that works on a mobile
14:43:49 <alise> maybe. i've been meaning to replace it.
14:44:21 <alise> i have this wonderful plan for a website that can do it all seamlessly, on just about any device, including public computers, and yet, is still totally trustable
14:44:30 <alise> (i.e. you don't have to trust the website at all)
14:45:06 <alise> there's pretty much only one way I could be evil and I was planning to have a browser extension that automatically notifies you whenever the code changes and checks to see if reputable people have said it's fine before continuing
14:45:19 <ais523> alise: does it just serve client-side JS, or something?
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14:45:56 <alise> ais523: I don't particularly want to reveal the whole design in public, even though nobody else would bother building it, because it's the best "mainstream" idea I've had yet, even if I can't immediately think how to make money off it
14:45:57 <fizzie> For website passwords, I've been using a Maemo PasswordSafe port on the phone; that's not too bad, I guess.
14:46:02 <alise> ais523: but basically, all the sensitive stuff is done entirely client-side
14:46:07 <alise> and the server doesn't store anything I can read
14:46:12 <alise> there's more subtlety to it than that
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14:46:40 <ais523> the way to make money off it is to get lots of users, and then sell it before the buyer notices you don't have a business model
14:46:49 <ais523> then they add ads and it collapses, but you still have the money
14:47:09 <Vorpal> alise, nice idea but limited to high end phones really.
14:47:35 <alise> Vorpal: well, it would work on any semi-modern phone
14:47:39 <ais523> low-end phones can't log into websites at all
14:47:40 <alise> probably even blackberries
14:47:48 <alise> but i don't use opera mini
14:47:54 <alise> also, it was mainly for browser usage, it just happened to work on phones too
14:48:02 <alise> Vorpal: besides, creating a java version or whatever wouldn't be too hard
14:48:05 <Vorpal> indeed, I was just disputing the claim about "just about any device"
14:48:12 <Vorpal> alise, there are lots of lower end/older phones
14:48:12 <alise> i meant, cybercafes too
14:48:17 <ais523> wow, Facebook just added/are in the process of adding an option to export data
14:48:19 <alise> yes, but cool people don't own them.
14:48:25 <alise> or rather, cool people don't internet from them :P
14:48:40 <ais523> that's... rather out-of-character for them
14:48:58 <Vorpal> alise, indeed, I wouldn't log in on anything with it. Only internet stuff I do on it is read news and check bus schedule
14:49:18 <Vorpal> and news only when waiting for bus or such
14:49:40 <Vorpal> I think the only times I'm bored is when I'm waiting for the bus...
14:49:51 <alise> ais523: what progress!
14:49:55 <alise> access to your own data
14:50:07 <ais523> I just don't see the motive here
14:50:13 <ais523> trying to dodge antitrust concerns, maybe?
14:50:17 <ais523> trying to actually become less evil?
14:50:22 <alise> maybe they've found love.
14:50:37 <cpressey_> they claim it is all secure and protected after you download it
14:50:45 <fizzie> alise: The official motivation: "It's our core belief that people should own and be able to conrol their information in Facebook," said CEO Mark Zuckerberg. "We view this as a philosophical thing."
14:50:57 <fizzie> See, it's philosophical.
14:51:04 <Vorpal> alise, we need to find a way to write a liver now. A bit tricky hm
14:51:09 <alise> fizzie: i really need a good onomatopoeium for "snrk"
14:51:22 <alise> the sort of half-nose, half-above-mouth outwards sharp release of breath
14:52:30 <cpressey_> mzstorkipiwanbot: lambdabot is gone. you know this means i'm gonna have to teach you to be our messenger service.
14:52:43 <fizzie> You have a very disagreaable bot there.
14:53:05 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, learn to do memo-passing so that these new upstarts don't steal your place as the channel's most important person!
14:53:05 <fungot> fizzie: you could also use " define" at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ display/ fnord
14:53:06 <cpressey_> it's quite the contrarian little bastard, yes
14:53:24 <alise> nooo, lambdabot went
14:53:46 <alise> mzstorkipiwanbot: fort
14:53:57 <ais523> who is mzstorkipiwanbot?
14:54:06 <alise> there's no a in it
14:54:08 <alise> it sounds like snrk
14:54:14 <alise> mzstorkipiwanbot: x
14:54:14 <alise> mzstorkipiwanbot: x
14:54:14 <alise> mzstorkipiwanbot: x
14:54:29 <alise> cheater: can I hire you as an AI consultant? :|
14:54:30 <ais523> is its only purpose to disagree with things?
14:54:33 <alise> ais523: apparently
14:54:34 <ais523> that seems kind-of pointless
14:54:41 <Vorpal> mzstorkipiwanbot, do you agree that you disagree with everything?
14:54:49 <Vorpal> mzstorkipiwanbot: do you agree that you disagree with everything?
14:54:58 <alise> cheater: happiness; the latest release of vagrant before maybe three other people
14:55:25 <Vorpal> cpressey_, you might want to add , to the list of things that goes after the nick
14:55:51 <alise> or just make it reply to it whenever its name is mentioned >:)
14:56:11 <Vorpal> alise, could get annoying, What if it happened when talking about something else? ;)
14:56:25 <alise> python really needs goto
14:56:59 <cheater> def f0001(): blah blah; f0002()
14:57:09 <cheater> def f0002(): blah blaaa; f0003()
14:57:25 <alise> cheater: that doesn't let me break out of a while loop
14:57:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, at the very least it should reply only if it sees its nick with word boundaries around; otherwise all the words that just happen to contain mzstorkipiwanbot as a substring would get replies.
14:57:31 <alise> also it makes me write global
14:57:34 <cheater> de f0003(): if(blargh): f0001()
14:57:47 <Vorpal> cheater, but python doesn't optimise tail calls iirc?
14:57:57 <alise> Vorpal: you could write a trampoline
14:57:58 <alise> still, not the same
14:57:59 <cheater> alise: mine has less spaces.
14:58:04 <alise> cheater: yours has more bytse
14:58:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: Python also has a recursion depth limit of 1000 by default.
14:58:36 <cheater> fizzie: oh cool, didn't know that
14:58:50 <cheater> fizzie: what about nesting depth?
14:58:51 <Vorpal> so cheater's solution doesn't work
14:59:23 <Vorpal> cheater, aka: doesn't work
14:59:30 <cheater> Vorpal: it's not like we have a working model of a turing machine, so this conversation is moot
14:59:32 <fizzie> The recursion limit is runtime-configurable, though: http://docs.python.org/library/sys.html#sys.setrecursionlimit -- there's a hard limit somewhere, of course.
15:00:06 <cheater> Vorpal: because why would you talk about recursion limits outside of the interesting case of turing machines?
15:00:19 <Vorpal> alise, as for breaking out of loops, doesn't python have break [n] ?
15:00:35 <alise> it doesn't have break [n]
15:00:40 <alise> but you can't do that inside a function, duh
15:00:45 <alise> f() can't break out
15:00:48 <alise> you could raise an exception...
15:00:57 <alise> because mine sucks up the exception errors
15:01:01 <cheater> i was just going to say that
15:01:03 <alise> it's longer than my current code
15:01:12 <alise> a=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu')
15:01:13 <alise> X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y)
15:01:16 <alise> ^ these two lines are totally my favourites
15:01:33 <Vorpal> cheater, well, imagine a main loop of an httpd coded in python implementing in terms of your solution
15:01:38 <Vorpal> so, doesn't really work
15:01:52 <Vorpal> and you will always have to return up the chain in the end
15:02:00 <cheater> Vorpal: i don't care for http
15:02:02 <Vorpal> unless you exit the program
15:02:12 <Vorpal> cheater, same goes for any sort of server though
15:02:16 <Vorpal> httpd was just an example
15:02:29 * Vorpal waits for cheater to claim the concept of "server" is failed too
15:03:13 <cheater> talking to vorpal is a failed concept
15:06:35 <Vorpal> alise, btw read the annotation on iwc today
15:07:49 <ais523> claiming that http has failed is quite a bold statement...
15:08:01 <ais523> did I misinterpret you?
15:09:23 <Vorpal> ais523, long live gopher. Err.... <awkward pause> Anyone here a high level cleric?
15:10:20 <alise> cheater: so do you want to do AI or not? :P
15:12:41 <cpressey_> ais523: if its goal was to free the elephants, it has indeed failed
15:12:49 <alise> cheater: But those poor Qs.
15:13:03 <ais523> cpressey_: good thing it found a second job in serving Web pages, then
15:13:07 <ais523> it's amazing what you can repurpose some things to
15:13:15 <cheater> alise: will you keep throwing my code away?
15:13:25 <alise> cheater: only if it's really terrible
15:13:31 <fizzie> Incidentally, in the "new packages" list for my phone there's the Gophernicus Gopher server. I don't really know why someone bothered to package *that*.
15:13:32 <alise> or if I think of something even better
15:13:37 <cheater> alise: there was nothing terrible!
15:13:44 <alise> i am stating my future policy :P
15:14:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: The package homepage URL is a gopher:// thing. :p
15:14:32 <alise> undesired implications
15:14:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I'm not surprised
15:14:57 <cheater> not sure what "sunshine" implies
15:15:06 <alise> if r(0,14):Q('Yum! That was delicious.');L+=int(0==r(0,2)and r(5,10))
15:15:08 <alise> why do I have int() there
15:15:39 <alise> hey i can quaff indefinitely
15:15:44 <Vorpal> cheater, I think alise is better described by "messoscale thunderstorm in snow blizzard"
15:15:57 <Vorpal> rather than "sunshine"
15:15:59 <alise> IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE VORPAL DOESN'T LIKE ME
15:16:00 <cheater> alise: you can remove int()
15:16:28 <cheater> alise: i told you talking to Vorpal is a failed concept
15:17:25 <Vorpal> hm, golfing English, that might be fun
15:17:31 <Vorpal> I wonder how well it would work though
15:19:52 <alise> cheater: just getting this version a bit more polished
15:20:11 <cheater> alise: pls no heritage slurs
15:20:45 <cpressey_> a snow blizzard. as opposed to a cake blizzard.
15:21:01 * cheater wonders what it would mean to "english" a code.
15:21:22 <cpressey_> put spin on it so it bounces off funny?
15:21:23 * alise adds a NEW FEATURE
15:21:39 <cheater> alise: what feature would that be?
15:21:44 <alise> if k=='\n':D();continue
15:21:48 <alise> without costing a turn
15:22:02 <cheater> alise: you totally should set up bzr for this thing
15:22:13 <cheater> that's why you should use it
15:22:19 <cheater> so as not to hate it afterwards
15:22:26 <alise> i know i hate it for a fact.
15:22:35 <alise> anyway it's too small to version-control really. that would destroy the purity and fun.
15:22:51 <Vorpal> alise, visual sourcesafe!
15:23:09 <alise> wow, dying is broken
15:23:13 <alise> you just get informed that you die, every turn
15:23:24 <alise> and continue on with zero satiation and zero hp
15:23:33 <alise> if L<1:Q('You die...',1);D()
15:23:36 <alise> ah. that may be the issue
15:24:28 <cheater> alise: well we need to be able to work on it concurrently
15:24:39 <cheater> alise: what about a screen with vim
15:24:42 <cpressey_> pastebin and clog are your VCS for this thing
15:24:48 <alise> not really, i'm find merging in your changes when i tweak stuff
15:24:53 <cheater> alise: give me axs 2 ur shell acnt
15:25:08 <alise> i trust exactly one person in the world with my shell and it's probably ais523
15:25:24 <cheater> that's ok, ais523 trusts me
15:25:28 <ais523> heh, I like the idea that you know how many people you trust, but aren't sure who they are
15:25:40 <ais523> and no, I don't trust you, not to the extent of giving you access to someone else's trust indirectly
15:25:59 <cheater> said ais523, in fact trusting me.
15:26:13 <alise> cheater: http://pastie.org/1205374.txt?key=rxu2wgg3efutkk6cfdpryw
15:26:19 <alise> i've denoted where the AI needs to go
15:26:24 <alise> you can drop the ,w; from the global list
15:26:25 <alise> if you don't assign to w
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15:29:22 <alise> get Qs working first :P
15:29:56 <alise> cheater: this is why i didn't use your code :P
15:33:33 <quintopia> cpressey_: please go away and drop the _ and come back so that you'll be your normal color again! alise and ais523 are already orange!
15:33:45 <quintopia> (yay pathological cases of hashing nicks to colors...)
15:34:04 <ais523> hashing IPs, or cloaks, would be more useful, relaly
15:34:57 <quintopia> but being able to manually swap people's colors would be most useful. this script doesn't do that and i'm too lazy to add that feature...
15:35:45 <cheater> alise: what about adding shooting rays?
15:36:18 -!- cpressey has joined.
15:36:38 <cheater> (i can't really work on the code until tomorrow)
15:36:41 <alise> http://pastie.org/private/gaqwdbng4srklx1adb2o6g your code here doesn't work btw
15:36:49 <quintopia> alise: what about replacing # walls with "|" and "-" walls, so that it's easy to string them together on the fly!
15:36:51 <alise> you get floats out of the contraption...somehow
15:37:18 <cheater> alise: yes, integer floats
15:37:25 <alise> KeyError: (11.0, -10.0)
15:38:21 <quintopia> i prefer A+W root beer floats myself
15:38:57 <quintopia> someone invent a lang with that as a type
15:39:18 <alise> cheater: well either i patched it wrongly or your code is messed up :D
15:39:40 <alise> btw your use of s is unwise
15:40:15 <cheater> so i use s for something else
15:40:21 <cheater> are you getting confused by this?
15:40:30 <quintopia> alise: does cheater have a copy of the latest optimized code?
15:40:41 <alise> yes, but he can't work on it
15:40:49 <alise> cheater: no, but it also didn't work the last time I tried it
15:40:57 <alise> python scoping is fucked
15:41:08 <cheater> ok, so T gets called for every X, Y?
15:41:23 <alise> T just advances the turn
15:41:26 <alise> quaffing does it too
15:41:32 <alise> http://pastie.org/1201977.txt?key=gaqwdbng4srklx1adb2o6g ;; i swear this doesn't work
15:41:33 <cheater> why would i put ai code in T?
15:41:40 <alise> start it, space, Qs break lightspeed crazily
15:41:51 <alise> cheater: read the rest of the code and you'll see why
15:41:52 <alise> all logic goes into T
15:41:57 <alise> everything that happens once a turn
15:42:07 <alise> *such as other characters like AIs moving*
15:42:27 <quintopia> so monsters can only move when i move?
15:42:36 <quintopia> this is getting more and more drod-like...
15:42:40 <alise> or do something else that takes a turn
15:42:44 <alise> quintopia: no, nethack-like
15:42:46 <alise> ais523: back me up here
15:42:53 <alise> monsters in nethack only move when you take a turn, yes?
15:42:59 <ais523> quintopia: turn-based; your character thinks quickly, but the player might not
15:43:11 <Sgeo> Well, #esoteric isn't on lambdabot's join list
15:43:11 <ais523> so the game pauses when you're not acting to give the player time to think
15:43:18 <alise> Sgeo: it was manually joined
15:43:31 <alise> quintopia: also Crawl, Angband
15:43:56 <ais523> are there any realtime roguelikes?
15:43:57 <cheater> alise: just saying, T doesn't seem like the right placer
15:44:02 <quintopia> i'm sure they had very good technical limitations in their original implementations that made realtime monsters unwise
15:44:07 <alise> D() is called on, e.g. enter
15:44:08 <quintopia> we have come out of the dark ages now!
15:44:10 <alise> which just dismisses a message
15:44:12 <alise> without advancing the turn
15:44:13 <ais523> (I was about to say "don't say trankesbel", but that isn't this channel)
15:44:16 <alise> so of *course* it should not be in D()
15:44:24 <alise> quintopia: seriously?
15:44:26 <alise> it's called a roguelike
15:44:42 <alise> and you apparently don't have the imagination to appreciate it
15:44:54 <alise> ais523: why not; is it vapourware? i googled
15:44:58 <quintopia> i have the imagination to appreciate a rogueimprovment more than a roguelike
15:45:02 <ais523> alise: it's the PSOX of another channel
15:45:06 <ais523> fortunately, I've forgotten which
15:45:27 <alise> quintopia: dude...
15:45:30 <alise> have you ever played nethack?
15:45:34 <alise> every game after rogue is an improvement
15:45:42 <alise> making monsters realtime makes the game suck
15:45:55 <alise> removing all thinking, skill and planning
15:46:02 <alise> and just turning it into a third-person shooter with bad graphics
15:46:09 <ais523> meh, some players specialise in thinking really quickly
15:46:13 <quintopia> since there's not much in the way of puzzles in your game...
15:46:18 <ais523> but I've spent several minutes planning a move before
15:46:41 <alise> ais523: from the trankesbel guy: [[My best achievement is ascending 29 times in a row (that is, not dying between ascensions).]]
15:46:50 <ais523> alise: I know him on IRC quite well
15:46:58 <ais523> that's as far as anyone knows the current world record for that
15:46:59 <quintopia> but what makes it cool is that it has actual maps that a programmer thought about carefully!
15:47:08 <ais523> the same person /also/ holds the world record for winning NetHack in realtime
15:47:10 <alise> "Other stuff include ascending in 1 hours 42 minutes (2009 /dev/null)" fffwhat
15:47:22 <alise> http://genodeen.net/a_wins.png ;; what did /dev/null ever do to him
15:47:25 <ais523> I'm adding commentary to the recording of that run, pretty slowly
15:47:44 <alise> "Krokotiilinhammaskeittokirja (Damage calculation tool)"
15:47:48 <alise> what a hilariously terrible name
15:48:05 <alise> oh he admins pinobot?
15:48:14 <ais523> how did you find out about pinobot?
15:48:39 <alise> ais523: err, you told me to use it when playing nethack
15:48:50 <ais523> hardly anyone knows about it, you see
15:48:52 <alise> is it not well-known or something?
15:49:01 <fizzie> Krokotiilinhammaskeittokirja is Finnish for (approximately) "crocodile tooth cookbook", in case that wasn't explained there.
15:49:21 <alise> http://genodeen.net/index.clua?df_stuff ;; Hey, a way to play Dwarf Fortress in Linux nicely.
15:49:44 <ais523> so I was surprised that you did
15:49:45 <ais523> so I was surprised that you did
15:50:15 <quintopia> alise: consider what i said about walls! (i even know a way you could dynamically generate rooms without actually having to spend lines and lines of code setting them up)
15:50:32 <alise> quintopia: do tell?
15:50:38 <alise> <ais523> so I was surprised that you did
15:50:39 <alise> <ais523> so I was surprised that you did
15:50:39 <alise> <ais523> */ping ais523
15:50:50 <ais523> alise: I was having connection trouble
15:50:53 <ais523> so I was pinging myself
15:51:02 <ais523> then I tried again, so I typed the key sequence to repeat a linea
15:51:08 <ais523> and accidentally repeated the wrong line
15:51:16 <ais523> see, it's not that implausible a correction when you know the background
15:51:32 <ais523> (it's just that me pinging myself isn't sent to the channel)
15:52:37 <alise> U+=U>0;N+=1;S-=S>0;L%=301;L-=25*(L and S<1)
15:52:39 <alise> not an if in sight
15:53:07 <ais523> alise: did you figure out that k bug?
15:53:19 <alise> ais523: which j bug?
15:53:24 <alise> i almost remember what you're saying
15:53:37 <ais523> the one where you hold down j and the turncount goes negative
15:54:13 <alise> fixed by refreshing the screen each turn and getting all cargo cult about that
15:55:21 <alise> woo, actually i can make that one line shorter
15:55:29 <ais523> well, did you figure it out?
15:58:09 <cpressey> the dark ages of turn based strategy... ye-e-e-es
15:58:41 <cpressey> we need some non-turn-based interactive fiction, too
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16:00:03 <cpressey> the number of times i have died at zangband by moving without considering my position well enough, i cannot count
16:00:42 <alise> I wonder whether quaffing when you have no potions should take a turn.
16:02:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:03:59 <ais523> cpressey: are you admiring my analogy?
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16:06:20 <Sgeo> Is clog working?
16:06:45 <ais523> it was having trouble recently
16:06:50 <ais523> but it started working again
16:06:53 <ais523> has it stopped working again?
16:07:08 <Sgeo> It seems to be working
16:07:43 <Sgeo> I wasn't sure whether or not to bother checking logs
16:19:44 <alise> heh, my hallu is flawed
16:19:49 <alise> you can redraw as much as you want
16:19:56 <alise> which lets you determine where everything is, to high accuracy
16:20:01 <alise> because redrawing causes re-hallucination
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16:28:41 <alise> "Oh, and not long after making these photos, I was stopped and interviewed by a police officer, who searched my camera bag, on grounds of suspicious activity, potentially related to terrorism. I have a carbon copy of the police report sheet to prove it." --DMM on London
16:28:47 <alise> why am I not surprised?
16:29:43 <ais523> I'm not really, either
16:30:02 <alise> ais523: the photo was of the *tower of london*
16:30:08 <alise> apparently, taking photos of it is suspicious
16:30:17 <alise> you might want to help a friend escape from there, treasoner!
16:30:20 <ais523> I know I was once moved by an armed police officer
16:30:31 <alise> you "know" it? not "remember" it?
16:30:35 <ais523> because I was accidentally standing in the way of an official car that wanted to drive into Buckingham Palace
16:30:49 <ais523> alise: well, it seems like a really absurd thing to plant a false memory of
16:30:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:31:12 <alise> ais523: I would have just omitted the "I know"
16:32:01 <cpressey> perfectly normal rhetorical device imo
16:32:13 <alise> i think i initially interpreted it as that
16:32:19 <alise> but discarded it as meaningless before finishing for some reason
16:32:33 <ais523> I think it expands to something like "well I only know that info about DMM second-hand, but here's a first-hand story..."
16:32:50 <cpressey> also, you are debugging hallucination code, so it's understandable
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16:37:09 <alise> i don't mind it being broken
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16:48:56 <ais523> Sgeo: care to explain?
16:49:16 <Sgeo> What it is, or why it's memefied?
16:49:19 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:50:39 <ais523> I think cheater was asking the first
16:50:52 <ais523> see, you can subvert the meme this time by taking it back to its roots
16:52:13 <Sgeo> PSOX is something that sits between a program, typically written in an stdio-only esolang, and stdio
16:52:32 <Sgeo> It intercepts output, and treats it as commands to do things like open files or open sockets
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16:52:43 <Sgeo> And feeds the results back into the program's input
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16:54:13 <Sgeo> Overzealous promotion, vaporware for a time, and despite having language-independence as a goal, it made many assumptions that inconvenience languages other than Brainfuck
16:54:50 <Sgeo> I rejected one of the spiritual ancestors of PSOX precisely because it assumed the concept of cells
16:55:10 <Sgeo> (And some semantic issues.. or was that something else?)
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16:58:01 <alise> vapourware always :)
16:58:05 <alise> well at least for the stuff yuo said itw ould be able to do
16:58:23 <ais523> you know what would be a good model for a PSOX-alike? telnet!
16:58:36 -!- rodgort has joined.
17:00:04 <alise> ais523: hell no :P
17:00:31 -!- tombom has joined.
17:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, what did Sgeo assert PSOX would be able to do?
17:03:31 <cheater> i thought psox was phantasy star online xbox
17:04:07 <Sgeo> alise, just because I never got around to the file stuff before abandoning it?
17:04:20 <Sgeo> And did I ever actually PROMISE a GUI domain?
17:04:21 <alise> although i may be wrong there
17:04:23 <Sgeo> The network stuff works
17:04:54 <Sgeo> pikhq wrote a wget.b
17:07:00 * Sgeo goes to watch some SG-1
17:08:01 <Ilari> Wow, for some larger operators, it is estimated that the Carrier Grade NAT logs one would have to keep would take about 2EB of space... That's A LOT.
17:08:28 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
17:09:21 <ais523> and yet people still don't get the message about IPv6
17:09:30 <alise> 06:48:37 <fizzie> There's the Jatravartids of Viltvodle VI, who believe the Universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure, and who fear the Coming of the Great White Handkerchief.
17:09:31 <ais523> EB aren't out of range for modern technology, though, IIRC
17:09:35 <alise> Please, tell me you typed that from memory.
17:09:56 <alise> Ilari: carrier grade logs -- you mean legally mandated stuff?
17:10:02 <alise> i'm not so hot with networking
17:10:19 <Ilari> alise: I mean "Carrier Grade NAT".
17:10:40 <Ilari> alise: And yes, legally mandated logs. Currently one can get by with much smaller logs.
17:10:51 <alise> Ilari: obviously we will just legislate away the logs
17:10:55 <alise> after Verizon and Comcast complain
17:12:18 <Ilari> Worse yet, even those logs will not be as useful for handling abuse as what currently exist.
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17:13:19 <Ilari> Since time skew would seriously hamper process. Yes, there's NTP, but still a lot of clocks are wrong.
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17:17:46 <alise> 15:06:43 * ais523 continues to wonder wtf expect programs (written in TCL) run, given that TCL isn't installed
17:17:51 <alise> ais523: expect actually has tcl compiled in
17:17:59 <ais523> that was explained some other time
17:18:03 <alise> it's, like, an alternative main.c or something iirc
17:18:06 <ais523> but wow, I made that statement ages ago
17:18:10 <alise> ais523: shut up i can logread as far back as I want :D
17:18:13 <alise> (only 27th August)
17:21:19 * alise examines in album's waveforms in Audacity
17:21:23 <alise> wow, atrocious clipping
17:21:31 <alise> they should remaster it properly sometime
17:23:37 <ais523> anyway, new esolang suggestion: 2D with two commands (NOP /not/ allowed, you have to use one or the other command everywhere up to the edge of the program): G rotates the IP left unless the current tape element is 0, X going left/right/up/down respectively is equivalent to BF < > + - respectively, tape is bignum, signed, and is initialised to start with 1 everywhere, IP starts going downwards at the top-left of the program
17:23:57 <ais523> I'm trying to work out if it's TC; with NOPs, it's relatively clearly possible to compile BF-minus-IO into it
17:24:22 <ais523> by separating the tape into a series of "always positive / junk / data / always positive / junk / data", etc
17:24:28 <ais523> don't have an interp yet
17:24:48 <ais523> and it's not quite clear how the lack of NOPs affects it, but I think (am unsure) it's still TC anyway
17:32:28 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>([+++++[-]>]>)*20>)*20[[[-]-]-]
17:33:50 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 0.0
17:34:01 <ais523> hmm, that's suspiciously low
17:34:47 <ais523> two draws, though, so it's not like it's an autolose program
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17:38:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I suppose it probably is in a literal sense, as well.
17:39:50 <quintopia> if one can consider meat a machine...
17:40:23 <quintopia> things that are really neat: neuroplasticity et al.
17:41:21 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: it was ALWAYS literally so.
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17:41:58 -!- augur has joined.
17:41:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the neurons themselves aren't self-replicating any more AFAIU.
17:42:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:42:05 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
17:42:15 <ais523> was a missing bracket, I'm amazed it actually got anywhere at all
17:42:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 21.5
17:42:23 -!- augur has joined.
17:42:42 <ais523> looks like I just knocked GreaseMonkey off the leaderboard altogether
17:44:42 <alise> i wouldn't say the human brain can self-replicate
17:44:44 <alise> just the body as a whole
17:44:46 <alise> with the brain as the cpu
17:44:52 <ais523> neurons can't actually replicate
17:44:58 <ais523> stem cells can replicate, and transform themselves into neurons
17:45:06 <ais523> but the neurons themselves are no longer capable of replication
17:52:14 <Gregor> "SHOO!" "You could ask me to leave more politely." "I could. I choose not to."
17:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I was referring to the various bacteria and such in my sinuses and throat.
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17:54:48 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:55:36 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
17:55:44 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
17:57:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:58:12 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:00:06 <Gregor> ais523: Still, defend7 is doing a hell of a lot better than tripwire2, so :P
18:00:35 <ais523> Gregor: heh, defend7 IIRC actually has some anti-tripwire code
18:00:44 <alise> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded
18:00:51 <ais523> if it didn't, tripwire2 would beat it any day
18:00:55 <alise> Yes, that's right, there are so many monsters that my message-printing function crashed.
18:01:05 <ais523> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
18:02:12 <Gregor> I forget the convoluted but semi-logical algorithm by which I calculated scores :P
18:02:45 <Gregor> I guess it's in report.c if I wanted to remember ...
18:03:37 <ais523> I think you even documented it
18:03:48 <ais523> yep, http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES
18:04:38 <alise> *Somehow* this prompts "81" all the time.
18:06:19 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what evolutionary BF Joust would be like
18:11:10 <Gregor> Then a LAB will come to YOU!
18:11:27 -!- Harpyon has joined.
18:11:53 <ais523> hmm, no, defend7 doesn't have counter-tripwire code
18:11:58 <ais523> so why is tripwire2 losing to it?
18:12:27 <Gregor> Because it's more defensive than tripwire is trip-wiry?
18:13:01 <ais523> the whole point of tripwiring (one of the few tactics that worked in BF Joust 1) is to ignore the first of your opponent's decoys (or more, but that's really risky)
18:13:09 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
18:13:25 <ais523> defend7 does place one extra decoy, so it does defeat the tripwire
18:13:38 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
18:13:48 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 27.6
18:13:52 <ais523> let's try a double-tripwire; this did insanely badly last time I tried, but it may work better in today's metagame
18:14:23 <ais523> (and now beats defend7)
18:14:38 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
18:14:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 33.8
18:14:58 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how many tripwires I can get away with?
18:15:06 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
18:15:18 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 29.8
18:15:23 <ais523> looks like three is the optimal number
18:15:26 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
18:15:33 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 33.8
18:15:37 <Gregor> I was just about to say "I'm gonna go with three" :P
18:15:44 <Gregor> But that's just the optimal number for this hill.
18:15:47 -!- nooga has joined.
18:16:17 <ais523> hmm, tripwire actually has a positive overall rating
18:16:22 <ais523> it's pretty rare to get one of those onto the hill that quickly
18:16:31 <alise> yay, my hallu now has a cure
18:16:34 <alise> (potions help alleviate it)
18:16:53 <ais523> 8 losses, one to defend7 (where a tripwire trips over the defenses altogether and lands on the other side of the flag)
18:17:33 <alise> I think it's actually possible to survive hunger if you get like 100 potions.
18:17:51 <alise> (being hungry deducts 25 HP per turn)
18:17:56 <alise> and potions give 20
18:18:12 <alise> hungry=no satiation, that is
18:18:23 <alise> so if you have enough HP, and enough potions to last you until you get to the nearby food...
18:19:01 <alise> i may make money useful, say,
18:19:06 <alise> higher max hp the more money you have
18:19:20 -!- augur has changed nick to cheesey_.
18:19:24 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
18:19:27 <alise> pretty good, I think
18:19:28 -!- cheesey_ has changed nick to augur.
18:19:46 <alise> 19.2 "standard" (80 col) lines
18:19:54 <alise> replacing newline with something else, that is
18:20:05 <alise> just need to make monsters work now :P
18:22:12 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>>>>>([>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
18:22:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 17.3
18:22:26 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire2 >>>++++++++++++++<---------->>>>>>([>>>([+++++[-]>]>)*20]>)*20[[[-]-]-]
18:22:31 <ais523> OK, it seems you /do/ need decoys
18:22:34 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire2: 33.8
18:28:20 -!- augur_ has joined.
18:28:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:30:06 <nooga> i'm looking for an idea for a complicated programs in C++ and C#
18:30:45 <Gregor> C++, it's from KHTML remember.
18:30:59 * alise wonders how he lost 5 HP
18:31:13 <Gregor> alise: Not enough entrepreneurship.
18:31:20 <alise> nooga: vagrant is my lovely little golfed roguelike
18:31:56 <Gregor> alise: Is there an actual roguelike golf out there, or are you just making it 'cuz you can?
18:31:59 <alise> 1635 bytes of Python -- well, 1634, the newline at the end is irrelevant -- and, although it doesn't have monsters that actually fight you yet, it's surprisingly feature...ful
18:32:04 <Gregor> If the latter, I have a GC in <700 lines of C :P
18:32:24 <alise> Gregor: The latter. Well, there was a 1k roguelike competition a while ago on that usenet group, but it only got like three submissions and half were in C# and Java and shit.
18:32:31 <alise> (Yes, half of three!)
18:32:36 <alise> Besides, I've broken the 1k barrier already.
18:32:46 <alise> By doing things like this:
18:32:51 <alise> w.update(q);U+=U>0;N+=1;S-=S>0;L%=301;L-=25*(L and S<1)
18:32:52 <alise> w[y,x]=32;x+=a;y+=b;w[y,x]=64;X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y);D()
18:32:53 <alise> a=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu')
18:32:55 <alise> if P and L+20<301:q=min(P,20);L+=q;U+=q*3*(U>0);P-=q;T()
18:32:57 <Gregor> So, one was in both C# and Java, another was in C, and one was in Java with JNI using C stuff?
18:33:07 <alise> q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(W)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q)
18:33:08 <alise> s.addstr(22,0,'_'*80);C('$:%-17s T:%-17s S:%-17s HP:%-3s (%s)'%(G,N,S,L,P));global V;V();V=lambda:1;s.move(y-Y+11,x-X+40)
18:33:37 <alise> Gregor: My messaging system is awesome. Guess how it works. Actually it doesn't really work but there you go.
18:36:15 -!- Gregor has set topic: The international hub for esoterica, the occult, astrology, esoteric topics in computing and programming languages, astral projection, necromancy and scientology | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:36:44 -!- ais523 has set topic: < pikhq> Microsoft Word: the worst program to design web pages in, and this *includes* Malbolge. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:38:03 <ais523> OK, can anyone explain this? leaning on my touchpad in a certain way causes all the pixels in the client area of my IRC client (but not the window border or tabs, etc, so it's clearly software-involved somehow)
18:38:11 <alise> <ais523> Gregor: don't
18:38:17 <alise> it's funnier that way
18:38:22 -!- Gregor has set topic: Totally NOT the international hub for esoterica, the occult, astrology, astral projection, necromancy and scientology | But actually IS the international hub for esoteric topics in computing and programming languages | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:38:44 <ais523> but it doesn't correspond to left/right/middle-clicking, or any sort of mouse movement AFAICT
18:38:47 <ais523> so what input's being sent?
18:38:55 <alise> "leaning on my touchpad in a certain way causes all the pixels in the client area of my IRC client (but not the window border or tabs, etc, so it's clearly software-involved somehow)"
18:38:58 <alise> causes all of them WHAT?
18:39:05 <cpressey> so i think my bot should be an esolang interpreter HEAR ME OUT
18:39:05 <Gregor> ais523: It just causes them.
18:39:09 <alise> "It just causes all of them!"
18:39:15 <Gregor> They wouldn't exist if not for leaning on the --- damn :P
18:39:18 <alise> except you mispinged me :P
18:39:26 <ais523> I knew I'd missed something from the sentence, just wasn't sure what
18:39:31 <cpressey> a language that just happens to overlap the irc protocol and thus work as a bot
18:39:39 <Gregor> alise: I was actually writing that before you wrote your thing, so I was telling him that :P
18:39:54 <ais523> (anyway, the main reason is that by attempting to define esoterica, there's bound to be someone who stumbles in here by mistake, disagrees with our definition, and flames us all for the rest of our lives
18:40:05 <Gregor> cpressey: Mah brain axplote.
18:40:28 <alise> i thought it was in response to <alise> causes all of them WHAT?
18:40:32 <alise> or did you write it before that too?
18:40:45 <Gregor> alise: I wrote it before that, that's what I'm saying.
18:40:55 -!- ais523 has set topic: peanut butter, the teachings of Henry XVI of Lithuania, rooftop supports, neutrinos | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:41:35 <cpressey> lithuanians sure do have funny surnames
18:41:36 -!- Gregor has set topic: George Carver did not invent peanut butter | Not that we're racist or anything | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:42:09 -!- alise has set topic: Peanut butter | The teachings of Henry XVI of Lithuania | Rooftop supports | Burma Shave | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:43:17 -!- Gregor has set topic: This channel is not about whatever you think it's about | Unless that's Lithuanian peanut-butter-based shaving creme | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:43:45 <alise> do you really mean creme there?
18:43:57 <Gregor> No, but I'm keeping it.
18:44:32 <ais523> surely it should be crème?
18:44:42 -!- trdrkia has joined.
18:44:50 <trdrkia> wow, cool, i thought nobody was as crazy as me to try it
18:45:01 <trdrkia> im from lithuania and i made some shaving cream with peantu butter...
18:45:02 -!- Gregor has set topic: This channel is not about whatever you think it's about | Unless that's Lithuanian peanut-butter-based shaving crème | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:45:07 <trdrkia> **peanut sorry my english isn't so good :))
18:45:19 <trdrkia> so what are you guys'' experiences ?
18:45:22 <ais523> alise: your IP gives you away
18:45:32 -!- Gregor has left (?).
18:45:32 <ais523> still, great performance art
18:45:33 <alise> ais523: NO MY WHOLE COUNTRY IS ON A NIC
18:45:41 -!- Gregor has joined.
18:45:41 -!- Gregor has left (?).
18:45:45 <trdrkia> it is true, alise is president of lithuania
18:45:58 <trdrkia> we have a song about it: "$*("Y!£HNO CARRIER
18:45:59 -!- trdrkia has quit (Client Quit).
18:46:03 -!- Gregor has joined.
18:46:06 <Gregor> Yes, Colloquy is certainly the worst IRC client there is.
18:46:12 <alise> Gregor: It is pretty bad.
18:46:14 <alise> Gregor: Try LimeChat.
18:46:19 <alise> http://limechat.net/mac/
18:46:21 <alise> It's got what plants crave!
18:46:52 <alise> I don't know if LimeChat has /ignore yet, but hey, what can you do.
18:46:54 <alise> (It probably does.)
18:47:09 <alise> Since 2010-05, which is... May?
18:47:10 <Gregor> /ignore is for pussies anyway.
18:47:44 <alise> Real men face their enemies!
18:47:59 <Gregor> wtf ... it won't let me install RubyCocoa ...
18:48:07 <alise> Your OS includes it.
18:48:10 <alise> Assuming you're post-Tiger.
18:48:16 <alise> http://cloud.github.com/downloads/psychs/limechat/LimeChat_2.15.tbz
18:48:18 <Gregor> Oh, I forgot what stupid name corresponds to what.
18:48:31 <Gregor> I saw "Snow Leopard" and went "know I don't have that", so skipped right to the next one.
18:48:37 <Gregor> Missing that "Leopard" was there too.
18:49:00 <alise> Gregor: You probably want to go to LimeChat -> Preferencse -> Log -> Untick "Show image links inline."
18:49:09 <alise> I think that would change http://totallygoatse/ into you know what.
18:49:20 <alise> Apparently it does it for YouTube links too.
18:49:26 <alise> (It may not even be enabled by default; I don't know.)
18:49:28 <ais523> hmm, I just noticed the zzo38 take on BF Joust
18:49:30 <alise> It's a good client though.
18:49:44 <ais523> and have been laughing for over a minute
18:49:49 <ais523> it's just so... different from how I think of it
18:49:54 <ais523> although it might nonetheless be a decent game
18:50:06 <alise> also, you laugh at *way* too little
18:50:22 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:BF_Joust
18:50:31 <ais523> well, it's not really quantity, but unexpectedness
18:50:38 <ais523> some things I find funny that other people don't, and vice versa
18:51:14 <alise> i wonder what zzo's like in real life
18:51:22 <alise> i dearly hope he speaks exactly like on IRC
18:52:04 <alise> ais523: I like how he turned it into a card betting game.
18:52:23 <ais523> it's like a mix between BF Joust and poker
18:52:24 <alise> Gregor: Notice the lesser amount of pain.
18:52:29 <alise> <alise> Gregor: You probably want to go to LimeChat -> Preferencse -> Log -> Untick "Show image links inline."
18:52:33 <ais523> you could actually do BF Joust without the BF
18:52:37 <alise> If it is indeed ticked by default.
18:52:47 <ais523> on your turn, you can: do nothing; check if your current location is 0; adjust your current location + or -; move < or >
18:52:56 <Gregor> alise: Why does that exist, and why is it under "Log" ...
18:53:10 <alise> Gregor: "Log" is LimeChat's name for the thing you see on screen.
18:53:15 <alise> The actual displayed meat of the channel.
18:53:16 <ais523> that way you can play it as a competitive game between humans
18:53:20 <alise> Gregor: It's Japanese :P
18:53:28 <alise> As for why it exists: #goatse obvs
18:53:38 <alise> ais523: that'd be rather slow, I imagine
18:53:41 <Gregor> alise: Of course it is, it's in Ruby.
18:54:01 <ais523> alise: now I'm wondering if that channel exists
18:54:03 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
18:54:09 <alise> ais523: rather easy way to find out
18:54:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:54:14 <ais523> not that I'd join it, even if it did exist
18:54:19 <alise> * You have been kicked from #goatse by ChanServ (Invite only channel)
18:54:27 <alise> It's a very exclusive anal-stretching channel.
18:54:32 <alise> You need an invite.
18:54:41 <Gregor> You have to post relevant pics to the moderator before being allowed to join.
18:54:51 <Gregor> Then they discuss techniques, skills, etc.
18:55:14 <alise> Gregor: You use a bouncer, right? Which?
18:55:34 <Gregor> It is precisely one modicum less terrible than the other ones I've used :P
18:55:42 <alise> Gregor: Ah, shame. I had some code that made LimeChat work with my bouncer's automatic scrollback feature, actually modifying the time fields and stuff.
18:55:48 <alise> So that it looked like you'd been in there all this time.
18:55:55 <alise> Gregor: Have you seen http://miau.sourceforge.net/?
18:55:58 <alise> it's a pretty good bouncer
18:56:26 <Gregor> I used bip only because it was recommended at me *shrugs*
18:56:34 <alise> I just recommended miau at you :P
18:56:43 <alise> I can't recall whether I used psyBNC or miau at the time I wrote that code though.
18:56:47 <alise> psyBNC is terrible.
18:56:50 <Gregor> Too late, bip got recommended at me earlier.
18:57:11 <fizzie> The problem with switching bouncers is that it's (potentially) yet another different log format.
18:57:32 <Gregor> fizzie: I don't log on the bouncer, I only log via xchat, and my xchat is always connected.
18:57:57 <fizzie> But that'd destroy my main reason for having a bouncer, which is to make switching actual IRC clients a lot easier.
18:58:14 <Gregor> Switching LOCATIONS is what's vital, not clients.
18:58:21 <Gregor> I'm on my laptop, at school right now.
18:58:27 <Gregor> But my home computer is still on.
18:58:44 <alise> People who use the "school" terminology post-school weird me out.
18:58:45 -!- nooga has left (?).
18:58:47 <alise> WEIRD ME OUT I say.
18:58:47 <Gregor> Also, the primary reason for me to have a bouncer is because having my hostname be codu.org is pretty damned suave.
18:58:53 -!- nooga has joined.
18:59:03 <nooga> alise: do you have something stable?
18:59:05 <Gregor> alise: Since all Americans call all forms of education "school"
18:59:19 <alise> Gregor: you're a Ph.D. student right?
18:59:34 <alise> I've never heard a Ph.D. student talk about going to school in the present tense, or anyone reference a Ph.D. student doing so :P
18:59:45 <alise> Unless they're the world's most retarded Ph.D. student, in which case maybe they go to little school too.
18:59:57 <alise> (Like theolog--*shot by the pope*)
19:00:04 <Gregor> I'm an idiot savant. I know computer science, not how to tie my shoes.
19:00:44 <fizzie> To each his own, I guess; I used to, and still do, run a permanently connected irssi that I'd ssh into for switching locations and having a zem.fi host; I just went bouncy to be able to experiment with clients without it messing logging and so.
19:02:04 <nooga> savant != i know computer science and i'm completely antisocial nerd that gets annoyed by daylight
19:02:04 <alise> Did anyone ever build an archiving system on ar before tar came along?
19:02:32 -!- augur has joined.
19:02:33 <alise> Like, an ar file that has a __DIRECTORIES file with a list of A, B and C separated by newlines,
19:02:35 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:02:41 <alise> and that means the A.ar, B.ar, C.ar files inside are more directories
19:05:20 -!- antivigilante__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:05:20 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:07:20 <Gregor> alise: I think cpio and tar came about precisely because ar was insufficient for real archiving :P
19:07:33 <alise> It's not insufficient, just handicapped! >___>
19:07:51 <alise> Gregor: Also, you forgot pax.
19:08:03 <Gregor> pax postdated by like a decade both cpio and tar
19:08:13 <Gregor> So no, pax came about because of limitations in cpio and tar :P
19:08:22 <alise> Gregor: Correct response:
19:08:26 <alise> "No, I really didn't forget pax."
19:09:12 <Gregor> I wish UNIX folks would switch to a random-access-aware compression and archival format.
19:09:34 <alise> [[Furthermore, "pax" means "peace" in Latin, so name implies it shall create peace between the tar and cpio format supporters.]]
19:09:37 <ais523> Gregor: tar and pax are random-access-aware when decompressed
19:09:49 <Gregor> "COMPRESSION AND ARCHIVAL"
19:09:52 <ais523> alise: well, it worked, when's the last time you saw a tar/cpio flamewar?
19:10:06 <Gregor> Hell, even HP-UX's bizarre .gz.tar files are better than .tar.whateverz
19:10:13 <alise> pax is what happens when the IEEE tries to design software!
19:10:21 <alise> Gregor: ...gz.tar?
19:10:28 <alise> Is every file inside gz'd or something?
19:10:29 <ais523> alise: gzip files, /then/ tar them
19:10:33 <alise> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:10:42 <Gregor> alise: Gives you random access to compressed files.
19:11:08 <Gregor> Mind, HP-UX uses that format for installable packges, which have no use for random-access, but anywho :P
19:11:12 <alise> .xz.cpio *mwahahahaha*
19:11:37 <alise> Gregor: .xz is lzma btw :P
19:11:42 <alise> (.lzma is deprecated)
19:11:52 <alise> Gregor: .cab.tar.cpio.cab
19:12:17 <alise> Cab! Wonderful cab!
19:12:20 <fizzie> I mean, there's 3DES; why not 3cab.
19:12:24 <alise> Cab, cab, cab, cab, cab, cab, cab, cab...
19:12:50 <alise> Gregor: .ext3.ext2.ext.reiserfs.7z.ar
19:12:59 <Gregor> I remember I had a class that required submissions in .shar format.
19:13:00 <ais523> the Windows public-access computers in the EE computer labs here used to automatically rename .tar.gz files to .tar.tar
19:13:02 <ais523> for no apparent reason
19:13:17 <ais523> Gregor: well, you can read shars without uncompressing them
19:13:24 <ais523> they used to be common on Usenet for that reason
19:13:26 <alise> Free as in Free 30-Day Trial!
19:13:34 <pikhq> ais523: Except when they're not.
19:13:36 <alise> *.rar, for better effect
19:13:56 <pikhq> ais523: GNU shar can produce base64'd, gzip'd shars.
19:14:04 <pikhq> (not by default, mind)
19:14:05 <ais523> pikhq: the man page says that people get annoyed when you post them to Usenet
19:14:13 <Gregor> ais523: I seem to recall the submission program that's official but nobody actually uses here recompressing .tar.gz files, so you'd get a file named .tar.gz, but that was actually a .tar.gz.gz
19:14:17 <pikhq> ais523: For obvious reasons.
19:14:18 <Gregor> Which is surprisingly annoying to extract.
19:14:27 <ais523> Gregor: I can guess what you mean there
19:14:29 <pikhq> ais523: Might as well just MIME encode a tarball at that point.
19:14:33 <ais523> (why is gzip filename-sensitive anyway?)
19:14:57 <Gregor> You'd have to gunzip, rename the result, then tar zxf
19:14:58 <alise> because gzip has a badly-designed UI
19:15:10 <ais523> it's more a very specific UI
19:15:18 <ais523> good for the most common use-case, bad in other cases
19:15:18 <Gregor> And of course you'd never remember that it's doing this to you, so first you'd tar zxf, then it'll say "this shit ain't no tar"
19:15:22 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:15:37 <ais523> impomatic: EgoBot's working again, if that's what you're here for
19:15:43 <ais523> there's even been movement on the hill today
19:16:00 <Gregor> People need to PM me when it's not working :P
19:16:01 <pikhq> For uncommon usecases, you pretty much want to use it as a filter; it'll be annoying otherwise.
19:16:07 <impomatic> I joined #esolang first and wondered where everyone disappeared to :-)
19:16:13 <alise> pax -wf /dev/fd0 .
19:16:13 <alise> ATTENTION! pax archive volume change required.
19:16:13 <alise> /dev/fd0 ready for archive volume: 2
19:16:13 <alise> Load the NEXT STORAGE MEDIA (if required) and make sure it is WRITE ENABLED.
19:16:13 <alise> Type "y" to continue, "." to quit pax, or "s" to switch to new device.
19:16:14 <alise> If you cannot change storage media, type "s"
19:16:16 <alise> Is the device ready and online? >
19:16:50 <ais523> pax splits across drives?
19:17:01 <impomatic> I'm just making a BF Joust wiki page, so I wanted to test an example
19:17:04 <Gregor> Real men cat then extract.
19:17:06 <alise> with a very un-unixy UI :P
19:17:21 <ais523> impomatic: in which wiki?
19:17:28 <alise> Gregor: The best archive format is "cat directory" (works on at least Plan 9 and NetBSD!)
19:17:36 -!- antivigilante has joined.
19:17:36 <alise> Sure, it's system-dependent... but who cares, it's simple!
19:17:42 <Phantom_Hoover> What kind of thing would you use random-access compression for?
19:17:46 <alise> cat files | compress
19:17:51 -!- antivigilante__ has joined.
19:17:55 <ais523> alise: does that actually give you the files in the directory? or just the metadata?
19:18:01 <alise> ais523: just the metadata, actually
19:18:07 <pikhq> alise: The best archive format is a filesystem dump containing just the required inodes and blocks.
19:18:08 <impomatic> ais523: http://programminggames.org/BF-Joust.ashx
19:18:13 <alise> Gregor: Pretty sure it just spits out the filesystem metadata.
19:18:25 <Gregor> impomatic: .ashx ... you lose forever.
19:18:42 <pikhq> (that would actually be pretty awesome: arche2fs /dev/sda1 /home/pikhq/some_dir)
19:18:50 <alise> "ash(1) Server Pages"
19:19:34 <pikhq> impomatic: Waitwaitwait, *Almquist shell* CGI?
19:20:18 <alise> But it SHOULD be ash.
19:20:24 <alise> pikhq: Nono, ASP.NET!
19:20:25 <impomatic> Gregor: I didn't actually write any .NET, just picked a Wiki that used a flat file.
19:20:32 <pikhq> I could at least respect CGI in asp.
19:20:39 <alise> ais523: quick, link to BobTHAbsentee's tracking system
19:20:58 <pikhq> impomatic: TiddlyWiki?
19:21:01 <ais523> http://nomic.bob-space.com/agoralog.aspx
19:21:14 <alise> TiddlyWiki doesn't support server writes without evil.
19:21:20 <alise> (what ais523 said)
19:21:33 <alise> pikhq: Especially view source, look at __VIEWSTATE.
19:21:47 <alise> pikhq: All of Agora relied on this not that long ago.
19:21:54 <alise> Then he left, I think he had his, what, sixth kid?
19:21:56 <alise> And the game collapsed!
19:22:01 <pikhq> alise: Ah. Well, there must be *something* better...
19:22:12 <alise> pikhq: BEHOLD THE ASP.NET PAIN
19:22:27 <pikhq> Well, there's Wikit; the in-Tcl single-file wiki/web server.
19:22:30 <alise> proto: only infertile people can control all recordkeeping
19:23:12 <pikhq> alise: ... No, the whole wiki is a single file.
19:23:12 <alise> pikhq: Why don't you play Agora anymore btw?
19:23:18 <alise> pikhq: I meant, the wiki.tcl.tk page for it.
19:24:17 <nooga> alise: when you plan to show some bits of this golfed roguelike?
19:24:41 <alise> pikhq: /1? old page!
19:24:43 <alise> does wiki.tcl.tk run on it?
19:24:44 <Gregor> impomatic: FukYorBrane isn't there :(
19:24:44 <pikhq> alise: I don't play Agora because... Uh. I don't.
19:24:47 <alise> or did it in the past?
19:24:52 <alise> pikhq: You used to play Agora :P
19:24:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:24:56 <alise> nooga: I have; want the current version?
19:24:58 <pikhq> alise: It has always run on Wikit.
19:25:12 <pikhq> They believe in eating their own dog food. :)
19:25:21 -!- augur has joined.
19:25:35 <alise> vagrant.py http://pastie.org/1205917.txt?key=qvb1dnfruxbofgx4xmpog
19:25:39 <alise> debug.py http://pastie.org/1205918.txt?key=hpfmpbouu9kh8ki3kwgta
19:25:45 <alise> Run debug.py if you make any changes; it lets you see exceptions.
19:25:51 <ais523> Gregor: I still think that starting with 0, followed by defect, followed by a very very very long loop, is a breaking strategy in FYB
19:26:01 <ais523> because it causes your IP to move faster than the enemy pointer's speed of light
19:26:04 <alise> And yes, monsters do disappear if you walk into them; and yes, they do walk randomly. For now.
19:26:15 <ais523> thus, you then have unlimited time to track them down, unless they're using the same strategy
19:26:26 <ais523> there is a counter-strategy, but it sucks against anything else...
19:26:37 <Gregor> ais523: Then PROVE IT.
19:26:45 <Gregor> ais523: logicex-2 still stands as king of the hill!
19:26:51 <ais523> oh right, the hill's still up
19:29:49 <Gregor> The Haskell wiki is not written in Haskell.
19:29:53 <Gregor> WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT HASKELL?
19:30:08 <Gregor> Perhaps that using it to write super-stateful things such as wikis is a form of torture?
19:30:12 <pikhq> That MediaWiki is awesome.
19:30:18 <alise> <pikhq> That MediaWiki is awesome.
19:30:28 <impomatic> Gregor: I'll add FYB at some point. Unless you want to add it?
19:30:29 <alise> Gregor: there are many wikis in haskell, but if they had written one in haskell
19:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, it is written in Haskell, but the code is so lazy it just calls MW.
19:31:16 <pikhq> Gregor: It's not that painful in Haskell. It's just that you should probably either abstract or use a different language.
19:32:13 <alise> <pikhq> Gregor: It's not that painful in Haskell. It's just that you should probably either abstract or use a different language.
19:32:16 <alise> Rather than write a wiki?
19:32:20 <alise> I don't understand
19:32:31 <pikhq> alise: No, I mean "for writing super-stateful things".
19:35:05 <alise> pikhq: so wikit is tclkit?
19:35:07 <alise> that seems chaeting
19:35:27 <alise> is tclkit just a tcl interpreter bundle?
19:36:07 * alise wonders what TclVfs is
19:36:22 <alise> pikhq: You know of Rebol?
19:37:03 <pikhq> alise: Tclkit is just a Tcl interpreter bundle.
19:37:18 <ais523> Gregor: I'm having trouble uploading my breaking FYB program to a pastebin, it's around a megabyte long
19:37:31 <impomatic> I've been playing with activestate Tcl.
19:37:59 <alise> pikhq: Rebol is quite cool. Similar to Tcl in a way.
19:37:59 <ais523> egobot wouldn't be able to read it, would it?
19:38:14 <alise> it's still sent in the http body
19:38:25 <ais523> impomatic: yes, but it uses ! for commands
19:38:29 <alise> i bet it ignores the attachment header
19:38:31 <pikhq> alise: TclVfs is the Tcl virtual filesystem layer.
19:38:41 <pikhq> alise: TclKit can include a filesystem image bundled with it, mount via TclVfs, and voila -- single-file distribution of your program.
19:38:44 <alise> pikhq: That I had already gathered.
19:38:58 <alise> pikhq: Does Wikit do that?
19:39:04 <alise> If so: totally cheating.
19:39:07 <alise> pikhq: You said single-file. :P
19:39:23 <pikhq> That said single file is an archive is beside the point. :P
19:39:40 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:39:42 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure it's only using the archive for... Archiving the wiki itself, though.
19:39:43 <alise> pikhq: So it's actually like ten files, I bet. :P
19:39:50 <EgoBot> 61 +++++++++[>+>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++><<<<-]>>-.>++.<-.+.<+. [73]
19:39:55 <ais523> impomatic: it's working
19:40:34 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957059
19:40:46 <ais523> I reduced it to 140000 bytes, should still be enough to beat existing programs
19:41:00 <ais523> (there are numerous ways to improve it, this is just a tech demo)
19:41:15 <ais523> if it loses, it's because I've screwed up the execution somewhere as I've never written FYB
19:41:47 <alise> ais523: why the reluctance to try filebin.ca?
19:42:01 <pikhq> alise: Oh, it's more than 1 file in the archive, but only because it can *also* run as a CGI script or as a Tk program for browsing said wiki.
19:42:08 <ais523> because I was already working on pastebin.ca at the time
19:42:17 <ais523> and besides, I'm not sure how efficient the FYB interp is
19:42:38 <pikhq> alise: Hey, it's pretty spiffy to be able to run the wiki on localhost and just browse it.
19:42:42 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:42:42 <Gregor> It shouldn't be this slow, this is weird ...
19:42:52 <ais523> and shouldn't do that badly, either
19:43:06 <ais523> perhaps I misinterpreted what [] does while defected?
19:43:09 <Gregor> You have to actually WIN
19:43:12 <ais523> the spec's rather unclear
19:43:17 <ais523> Gregor: I know, there's a loop at the end that should win
19:43:19 <alise> pikhq: BAH YOU TCL GUYS MAKING GOOD CODE
19:43:26 <ais523> by NOPing the entire enemy program, then replacing it with bombs
19:43:35 <Gregor> wtf, why isn't the report posted ...
19:43:37 <ais523> hmm, theory, it's NOPing the bombs as it lays them
19:43:39 <alise> I bet EgoBot gave up before reaching it
19:44:21 <Gregor> 17435 codu 20 0 320m 97m 6172 S 91.3 9.6 0:38.15 trac
19:44:27 <Gregor> Why are you taking 99% CPU, Trac
19:45:02 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957069
19:45:03 <Gregor> Why must Trac always be the bane of my existence?
19:45:08 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:46:10 <ais523> Gregor: ah, my program's just drawing with every other program
19:46:12 <ais523> due to the interp timing out
19:46:21 <ais523> it's working perfectly, just the interp doesn't handle the brilliance of my program
19:46:27 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Be right back.).
19:46:29 <Gregor> Interp timing out? It gives you 1 million iterations or something.
19:46:32 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it just moves the IP faster than the enemy's pointer's speed of light
19:46:46 -!- Deewiant has joined.
19:46:54 <ais523> by using a [] loop with the current element set to 0
19:48:50 * ais523 replaces the kill stuff at the end with the simple bomber example from the README
19:49:05 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957070
19:49:45 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:50:25 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957070
19:50:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:50:30 <ais523> I think EgoBot just doesn't handle the program
19:51:12 <ais523> still, this doesn't mean that the /principle/ is broken
19:51:26 <Gregor> There's a super-secret program length limit apparently :P
19:52:15 <Gregor> Maaaan I was a shitty coder back in '05 X-D
19:52:30 <Gregor> Make it 32k or less and see what happens :P
19:52:55 <Gregor> (I should rewrite this ... )
19:54:07 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957076
19:54:11 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:54:27 <ais523> report.txt blank again
19:54:28 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957076
19:54:32 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:54:41 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957076
19:54:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 0.0
19:54:59 <ais523> and again, I give up trying to figure out what's going on here
19:55:07 <ais523> that's only 31 and a bit K...
19:55:25 <Gregor> That's not the issue any more.
19:55:31 <Gregor> Wait for the report to finish generating.
19:56:21 <Gregor> It's not actually doing anything it seems :P
19:56:26 <Gregor> Crufty piece o' garbage
19:57:23 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_nothing: 23.1
19:57:23 <Gregor> I don't understand why the BFJoust hill is so stable and FYB isn't, when they're basically the same software ...
19:57:36 <ais523> maybe it's the interp itself
19:57:43 <alise> Gregor: Did you rewrite the FYB hill?
19:57:46 <Gregor> 3 | 0 + 0 + 0 + - - + - 0 - - + 0 | 25.3 | 0 | ais523_lightspeed1.fyb
19:57:48 <alise> Or is the Joust one based on the FYB one?
19:58:17 <ais523> Gregor: clearly 32k isn't enough for complete immunity from everything
19:58:21 <Gregor> alise: The Joust one is based on the FYB one. Probably improved. If anybody cared I'd fix it though :P
19:58:30 <ais523> given that I used a /very/ slow but relatively sure method of bombing the opponent
19:58:33 <Gregor> ais523: Good excuse there, Mr. My-Strategy-Doesn't-Work-Waaaah :P
19:58:48 <alise> ais523: why not run it locally?
19:58:54 <ais523> Gregor: the strategy can be mathematically proven to work, given a long enough size advantage over the opponent
19:59:00 <ais523> alise: because then Gregor would never believe me
19:59:29 <Gregor> I just don't want FYB to be broken X-P
20:01:06 <ais523> btw, a long string of NOPs at the start of the program works just as well, possibly even more effectively
20:01:30 <ais523> because unless the opponent starts with an equally long string of >s, you outspeed them by moving at lightspeed while the opponent has to do some sort of logic
20:03:01 * Gregor is presently trying to figure out why logicex-2 wins.
20:03:19 <alise> my satiation counter wraps around
20:03:22 <alise> $:909 T:808 S:0 HP:100 (345)
20:03:24 <alise> after i ate some food
20:03:30 <alise> good thing i have all those potions
20:03:40 <ais523> is there a potion counter?
20:03:42 <alise> (that's 345 hp i can add on to mine, 20 per turn)
20:03:47 <Vorpal> how can anyone possibly manage worse manual translation to English than the automated translation of English with google translate...
20:03:47 <alise> ais523: yes, after the HP count in ()s
20:03:53 <alise> q moves 20 from that to the hp
20:04:10 <ais523> exactly the same notation as NetHack, entirely different meaning
20:04:11 <alise> didn't take a potion first turn
20:04:23 <Phantom_Hoover> "<ais523> Gregor: the strategy can be mathematically proven to work, given a long enough size advantage over the opponent"
20:04:32 <alise> ais523: it'll probably be HP:now/max (potion) if i add a max hp
20:04:36 <Phantom_Hoover> "Moshe Sipper invented non-uniform cellular automata, which are cellular automata in which the CA-rules are local to each cell and can be copied onto neighbouring cells. Non-uniform CA rules can be designed to model conservation of mass."
20:04:38 <alise> if L<1:Q('You die...',1);D();endwin();print'You survived for '+N+' turns and had $'+G+' when you died.';exit()
20:04:38 <alise> TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects
20:05:00 <ais523> you can do that in Java...
20:05:15 <ais523> and if even /Java/ lets you do something, it must be pretty nonesoteric
20:05:17 * Vorpal invents a silly addition function.
20:06:12 <fizzie> Is the Python % operator still the way to do formatted output, or did they do something different there? (I mean, I know it works, but if it's somehow unclean.)
20:06:24 <alise> if L<1:Q('You die...',1);D();endwin();print'You survived for %s turns and had $%%s when you died.'%N%G;exit()
20:06:29 <alise> It's shorter than %(N,G)!
20:07:24 <Sgeo> Golfing in Python?
20:07:46 <alise> Sgeo: i will now give you a heart attack:
20:07:50 <alise> W=[32]*1000+[36,81]*5+[37]*3+[35]*50+[33]
20:07:52 <alise> q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(W)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q)
20:07:53 <alise> s.addstr(22,0,'_'*80);C('$:%-17s T:%-17s S:%-17s HP:%-3s (%s)'%(G,N,S,L,P));global V;V();V=lambda:1;s.move(y-Y+11,x-X+40)
20:08:18 <alise> w.update(q);U+=U>0;N+=1;S-=S>0;L%=301;L-=25*(L and S<1)
20:08:22 <alise> w[y,x]=32;x+=a;y+=b;w[y,x]=64;X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y);D()
20:08:28 <alise> a=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu')
20:08:30 <Sgeo> Oh, fun fact: I posted a link to something. Warrigal posted on Reddit. Warrigal got almost 1k karma from it
20:08:33 <alise> if P and L+20<301:q=min(P,20);L+=q;U+=q*3*(U>0);P-=q;T()
20:08:50 <alise> Sgeo: let me guess, you're angry at him now.
20:08:57 <alise> and yes, it's that obvious
20:09:01 <ais523> I'd be happy for him if that happened
20:09:10 <Sgeo> Not _actually_ angry. Joking angry
20:09:11 <ais523> alise: where's the redraw in that?
20:09:26 <Sgeo> And angry at myself for not thinking of posting it myself
20:09:33 <alise> ais523: that's not the whole code, just particularly abhorrent snippets
20:09:38 <Vorpal> Render the addition as an image, the usual way humans write such downs (numbers above each other and such). Font should be Comic Sans if that is available on the system. Now do OCR on the image for each column, writing the result to the relevant place below that column. If you get a carry, update the image above the next column as usual. Continue until done. Then read the result line back using OCR.
20:09:41 <yorick> alise: that's horrible :P
20:09:48 <alise> yorick: that's awesome.
20:10:03 <Vorpal> alise, cool code above :P
20:10:08 <alise> Sgeo: you mean the kind of joking angry that means actually angry? :p
20:10:30 <Vorpal> alise, is there any IOPCC?
20:10:31 <ais523> I like using nonalphabetic variables in Perl so you don't need to use a space between them and a keyword
20:11:11 <yorick> wait...that's actually python?
20:11:27 * Sgeo misread ais523 as zzo38
20:11:30 <Vorpal> alise, why does this need to be two lines:
20:11:34 <Vorpal> <alise> w[y,x]=32;x+=a;y+=b;w[y,x]=64;X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y);D()
20:11:34 <Vorpal> <alise> a=(k in'lun')-(k in'hyb');b=(k in'jbn')-(k in'kyu')
20:11:47 <Sgeo> Nick colors, I think
20:11:48 <ais523> Vorpal: they aren't consecutive, is my guess
20:12:15 <alise> yorick: yup, python
20:12:19 <Vorpal> alise, ah. What remains to be written?
20:12:26 <ais523> I still think you should use thin-spaces to golf it even further
20:12:38 <alise> Vorpal: it has the need to eat, turn count, money, HP, potions, walls, full movement...
20:12:40 <Vorpal> ais523, I doubt python will parse that?
20:12:48 <alise> Vorpal: to actually be fun in a sense just requires a little bit of dumb AI code
20:13:03 * yorick should create an irssi script that will color the nicks the way I want
20:13:04 <Vorpal> alise, and the TARDIS?
20:13:11 <alise> even now it's fun to play and see if the RNG hates you (i.e. see how long you can survive; food doesn't last long)
20:13:13 <alise> (and rack up cash)
20:13:25 <alise> Vorpal: not at that stage yet
20:13:39 <alise> Vorpal: you can have the current code if you want
20:13:45 <cpressey> yorick: you can script this thing? bitchen
20:13:46 <alise> oh yeah it has hallucination too
20:13:49 <Vorpal> alise, also about the food, surely if the world is infinite it shouldn't be impossible to find more?
20:13:50 <alise> 1/15 chance of bad food
20:13:53 <Gregor> laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl
20:13:58 <Gregor> ais523: You know there is no '-', right?
20:14:04 <alise> Vorpal: you have limited satiation, though
20:14:12 <yorick> cpressey: I probably could, but I hate perl
20:14:14 <alise> Vorpal: so can you survive long enough to get to it?
20:14:17 <alise> (yes, almost always)
20:14:20 <ais523> should have been [+], I wasn't thinking
20:14:22 <alise> (but still, it's easy to lose track)
20:14:24 <ais523> (it doesn't matter for that program)
20:14:29 <alise> Vorpal: max. 300 turns before you lose 50 hp/turn
20:14:35 <alise> (maximum satiation is 300)
20:14:42 <Gregor> ais523: Uhh, yes it does, you'll be in a tight worthless loop.
20:14:42 <alise> and food doesn't always replenish it fully
20:14:45 <Vorpal> alise, ouch, that is a bit too nasty
20:14:56 <ais523> Gregor: I mean, it doesn't matter whether it's + or -
20:14:57 <yorick> (if you convert a random wav file to text, you get executable perl)
20:15:01 <ais523> (nor how tight the loop is, using that strategy)
20:15:03 <alise> Vorpal: that's why you keep your HP up so that once you lose 50 you have enough time to get to food :)
20:15:12 <Gregor> ais523: Right, so fix it :P
20:15:24 <Vorpal> alise, can't you carry food?
20:15:26 <alise> guh, my HP wrapped arround to 4
20:15:36 <alise> Vorpal: nope, i avoid state like the plague :D
20:15:41 <alise> Vorpal: most things are done directly on the grid
20:15:45 <alise> for instance there is no model behind the object grid
20:15:50 <alise> walking onto something makes it disappear
20:16:00 <alise> and monsters are moved by actually looking at the visible screen and moving them around
20:16:03 <Vorpal> alise, it isn't just 'EM or 'ELM that is needed, it is 'EILM
20:16:16 <alise> slav, Super Lotsa Additions Vagrant
20:16:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: So non-uniform cellular automata are... neighbouring state machines.
20:16:35 <Vorpal> alise, how does hallu work then?
20:16:42 <Vorpal> alise, it permanently changes the grid?
20:16:44 <alise> "L%=301" fun fact, this does not impose a max health!
20:17:05 <cpressey> just make the playfield layout non-uniform too, and it's... a big state machine.
20:17:06 <alise> no, it makes you drop health rapidly if you get too much :P
20:17:14 <alise> i now have 4 hp due to no fault of my own
20:17:18 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: feels like a decay of theory
20:17:46 <Vorpal> alise, evil, surely you can make L=min(L,300) shorter somehow?
20:17:53 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: part of what makes them special is their uniform structure
20:18:04 <alise> Vorpal: i'm just not doing it, i'm sure i can check L<301 elsewhere
20:18:13 <alise> Vorpal: L-=25*(L and S<1)
20:18:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, well, you could simulate it with loads and loads of states.
20:18:19 <Vorpal> alise, as for the playfield, does it remember previous screens?
20:18:20 <alise> that is, "if L>0 and S==0, decrease L by 25"
20:18:30 <Vorpal> so the playfield grows over time
20:18:31 <alise> if we are hallucinating, increase the hallucination counter
20:18:37 <alise> explore too much and you run out of memory
20:18:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, mechanical self-replicators are the coolest things ever.
20:18:53 <alise> If we have any satiation, lose one point of it.
20:19:09 <alise> "X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y)" <-- figure out what this does (not having been there when we worked it out) and get a prize
20:19:38 <alise> it scrolls the playfield
20:19:40 <Vorpal> <alise> "S-=S>0" <--- err
20:19:57 <alise> Vorpal: (S>0) = True equiv-to 1
20:20:01 <alise> (S>0) = False equiv-to 0
20:20:04 <alise> S -= 1 decreases S
20:20:05 <cpressey> and i ruined Phantom_Hoover's chance!
20:20:06 <alise> S -= 0 does nothing
20:20:28 <alise> my hallu is so pitiful, you can just keep telling the game to redraw and it works :D
20:20:36 <alise> now what would be cool is hallu that actually permanently fixed the map!
20:20:40 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, mechanical self-replicators are the coolest things ever. <-- what about biological ones?
20:20:43 <cpressey> alise: that's how hallu works in real life too
20:20:54 <cpressey> you just keep redrawing and you can tell what's real
20:20:59 <alise> without taking turns
20:21:01 <alise> and it re-hallucinates
20:21:07 <alise> meaning if you hold down enter it's easy to see what's what
20:21:17 <alise> <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, mechanical self-replicators are the coolest things ever. <-- what about biological ones?
20:21:25 <alise> well i don't know if mechanical self-replicators enjoy replicating as much...
20:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/ctf20/dphil_2005/Thesis/Chapter1/Chapter1Figs/breivik2001.pdf
20:21:41 <alise> Oh yeah baby, feed me that molten metal so that I can assemble a copy of myself.
20:21:53 <alise> Yes, you totally assemble computers with MOLTEN METAL
20:21:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, has any been built btw?
20:22:01 <alise> Also I suppose that's a bit of a role reversal there.
20:22:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, give me server ip!
20:22:20 <alise> hee, i think i'm a wall
20:22:56 <cpressey> so a mechanical replicator would need to be "smart" enough to assemble a copy of itself -- so it would need a relatively powerful computer -- so it would need to build integrated circuits
20:23:05 <cpressey> which is a bit fucking nontrivial
20:23:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, host presumably
20:23:27 <cpressey> i could see it not needing a trult integrated circuit
20:23:43 <Vorpal> lets hope it isn't using vhosts
20:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> It works with lots of little plastic nucleotides, though, not true self-replication.
20:24:14 <ais523> cpressey: relay logic might work
20:24:24 <ais523> several telephone exchanges work on that basis
20:24:40 <Vorpal> cpressey, it depends on what you define as the raw material
20:24:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, imagine an universe where stuff like ARM cpus occur naturally :P
20:25:28 <Phantom_Hoover> In this case, the raw material is elements designed to stick together magnetically in an appropriate way.
20:25:31 <Vorpal> oh and li-ion batteries are found in certain geological formations
20:26:58 <cpressey> SAND. all you have to start is SAND.
20:27:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Penrose did a similar but less sophisticated system with 2 elements in 1 dimension.
20:27:45 <cpressey> Hard to make motors out of just sand.
20:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Given an infinite series of A B... a single cluster will tend to self-replicate.
20:28:17 -!- impomatic has left (?).
20:28:37 <alise> cpressey: MAKE IRON OUT OF SAND
20:29:31 <alise> uh oh, i just ate rotten food when already hallucinating
20:29:42 <alise> although in some cases that can actually cure you.
20:29:45 <cpressey> alise: RADIOACTIVE MOBILE CHIP FACTORY
20:29:53 <alise> in fact, in all cases.
20:30:32 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957097
20:30:37 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1: 25.3
20:30:39 <ais523> sorry, closed the tab rather than submitting it for some reason
20:30:57 <ais523> Gregor: how do you get the report to come up?
20:31:05 <ais523> cpressey: that's the same score it got last time, I think
20:31:07 <ais523> the scoring thing is broken
20:31:21 <Gregor> ais523: Idonno, I just submitted something else then it worked that time :P
20:31:28 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_nothing: 23.1
20:31:34 <Gregor> ais523: I'll have to debug that tonight.
20:32:19 <alise> quick, what's the range of printable ascii?
20:32:28 <Vorpal> <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957097 <-- what was % now again?
20:32:51 <alise> q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,choice(W)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q)
20:32:57 <Gregor> ais523: Ohhhh, it seems to get confused if you use a name that's already in use X_X
20:33:01 <ais523> Vorpal: defect (start analysing your own program)
20:33:03 <alise> q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,r(32,126)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q)
20:33:05 <alise> That's more like it.
20:33:08 <alise> ais523: is 126 valid too?
20:33:13 <ais523> !fyb lightspeed1a http://pastebin.ca/raw/1957097
20:33:22 <alise> ais523: valid as in printable. righ
20:33:24 <ais523> 127 is a control char, though
20:33:46 <Gregor> ais523: I'll have to look into this weirdness :P
20:33:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_lightspeed1a: 21.1
20:34:11 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: So eventually you'll support four variable scopes: message scope, nick scope, channel scope, and global variables.
20:34:14 <Vorpal> ais523, why resubmit the same thing?
20:34:22 <cpressey> I guess I could even have a server scope, but...
20:34:38 <fizzie> Lightspeedia, Wikipeedia.
20:34:55 <Gregor> ais523: I'll fix the borkitude on Saturdayish ...
20:35:03 <Vorpal> ais523, scanned last screensful, saw nothing
20:35:07 <cpressey> Lightspeedia is an encyclopedia made entirely out of light.
20:35:35 <ais523> Vorpal: <Gregor> ais523: Ohhhh, it seems to get confused if you use a name that's already in use X_X
20:37:51 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: since this morning (my time)
20:38:33 <cpressey> and its nick should really be "mzstorkipiwanbotbotbot" but that's too long
20:40:06 * alise has been hallu for the past N minutes
20:40:25 <alise> cpressey: Wait, are you actually doing that IRC-language thing?
20:40:59 <Gregor> Wait, why am I back in crappy Colloquy anyway ...
20:41:02 <alise> $:2689 T:2307 S:252 HP:300 (380)
20:41:38 <Gregor> cpressey: Will it have MEMORY SAFETY WITHOUT GC?
20:41:56 <cpressey> i need to rewrite what i have so far of the bot in some language less unappealing to me than python
20:41:59 <alise> Memory safety without GC: No free(), all memory leaks
20:42:26 <cpressey> Gregor: no. it will be unsafe in the sense that anyone could come along and change your global variables anyway.
20:42:35 <Gregor> alise: Apparently you missed cpressey's and my big argument about this, resulting in Eightebed which does fit my requirements but is so terrible :P
20:42:38 <alise> HOW AM I LOSING HP
20:42:47 <alise> Gregor: I did not miss it
20:42:55 <alise> Gregor: I named Eightebed
20:43:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, what irc language thingy?
20:43:18 <Vorpal> hm dns seems to work again
20:43:21 <alise> Gregor: http://catseye.tc/projects/eightebed/doc/website_eightebed.html; /Legal Issues/
20:43:40 <alise> "To have a literate specification written in SUPER ITALIAN, thus giving all programs the power of UNMATCHED PROPHETIC SNEEZING."
20:44:21 <Sgeo> Does reference counting count as GC?
20:45:00 <Gregor> Sgeo: It doesn't fit the requirements I set out because it leaks.
20:45:00 * Sgeo goes to try Samorost
20:45:16 <Gregor> Regardless of whether it counts as GC or not.
20:45:32 <cpressey> Gregor: unless your language forbids circular structures.
20:45:37 <Gregor> Alas, poor yorick, whoTF is this guy.
20:45:45 <Gregor> cpressey: Then your language is made of FAIL.
20:45:54 <fizzie> Perl folks call what they have a GC, and it's reference-counting. (With a "real" GC sweep on interpreter termination.)
20:45:59 <alise> $:3151 T:2859 S:291 HP:286 (324)
20:46:00 <cpressey> Gregor: Then all functional languages are made of FAIL.
20:46:08 <alise> I'll die now, since the game is insufferably boring.
20:46:22 <cpressey> fizzie: Wait, what? Why GC at the end? The OS will reclaim it all anyway!
20:46:23 <Sgeo> alise, the game you made?
20:46:28 <Gregor> cpressey: Yes, they are X-P
20:46:35 <alise> but i agree, circular structures are iffy
20:46:50 <alise> i read some stuff about a language lacking them, was interesting.
20:47:12 <fizzie> cpressey: The two official motivations I've seen are (a) making sure all finalizers get called at least once, and (b) for the case where the interpreter is embedded in some other process that's not going to terminate that point, and might in fact restart it again.
20:47:14 <cpressey> alise: OK, maybe not *all* functional languages, depending on implementation details etc, but you catch my meaning
20:47:15 <yorick> omg Gregor doesn't know me!
20:47:48 <cpressey> fizzie: ok, that's fair i suppose
20:48:18 <cpressey> yorick: nor do i, except that you've been here the past few days
20:48:27 <yorick> which is about all you could know about me
20:48:34 <yorick> I've been here since saturday
20:49:23 <cpressey> yorick: so what's your story, Dark Stranger who Wandered into Town Recently?
20:49:24 -!- tombom_ has joined.
20:49:28 <fizzie> cpressey: Oh, and also because Perl's "ithreads" mean each thread gets a completely separate copy of the whole interpreter, and they want those not to leak either.
20:49:35 -!- tombom_ has quit (Changing host).
20:49:35 -!- tombom_ has joined.
20:49:52 <yorick> cpressey: I knew about this channel for some time, but never bothered to join...and then I got an assignment that got brainfuck
20:49:56 <fizzie> "A more complete garbage collection strategy will be implemented at a future date."
20:50:03 <Gregor> What's really incredible about refcounting is that it's usually slower than even a naive mark-and-sweep :P
20:50:07 <yorick> and then I saw the beauty if this channel (saw beyond Vorpal)
20:50:36 <yorick> and now I'm idling here
20:50:36 <Gregor> alise: Looks like you've got a Vorpal-hatred buddy X-P
20:50:37 <cpressey> Gregor: but responsiveness is more predictable (go the arguments)
20:51:03 <Gregor> cpressey: Eh, fair enough.
20:51:27 <yorick> Vorpal: you scare new people away
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20:52:22 <Vorpal> <alise> i read some stuff about a language lacking them, was interesting. <-- um, lots of functional languages lack circular structures
20:52:55 <cpressey> Gregor: except it's not really true. i unlink a structure -- i have to check if it's an orphan -- i have to traverse it -- oh wait, how big is this thing?
20:53:02 <cpressey> excpet i think there might be tricks around that
20:53:19 <alise> "(With a "real" GC sweep on interpreter termination.)" ...why? For embedding?
20:53:21 <yorick> Gregor: especially against Vorpal eh
20:53:33 <Vorpal> alise, scheme without setf! and similar wouldn't allow circular structures I think?
20:53:40 <Gregor> yorick: No, I feed on hatred in general.
20:53:42 <cpressey> isomorphic to needing a sweep phase, i guess
20:54:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: And no optional laziness.
20:54:02 <Vorpal> <alise> "(With a "real" GC sweep on interpreter termination.)" ...why? For embedding? <-- um look above
20:54:12 <cpressey> alise: yes, he said embedding. and finalizing.
20:54:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm pretty sure you can't get circular structures in erlang btw
20:55:20 <Vorpal> cpressey, I'm not familiar with that one. One of yours?
20:55:39 <cpressey> Vorpal: it's Scheme minus Scheme
20:55:49 <Vorpal> cpressey, the null set?
20:56:13 <cpressey> Vorpal: no, more like Garfield minus Garfield
20:56:30 <cpressey> Vorpal: YOU SEE HOW THE ONE WORD CAN HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS
20:56:40 <olsner> hmm, there's an interesting paradigm, every input is an incorrect program
20:57:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, indeed. I admit I'm not 100% sure how to interpret the meanings in this case though
20:57:36 <olsner> which would be the effect if the set of correct programs is the null set
20:57:54 * pikhq found his in-C SKI interpreter
20:57:57 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ python debug.py
20:57:57 <alise> You survived for 3176 turns and had $3505 when you died.
20:57:58 <pikhq> Good God that's crazy.
20:58:28 <Vorpal> olsner, depends on what you do on "incorrect" data. For brainfuck-brainfuck every program would be a nop
20:58:29 <alise> More money than turns!
20:58:33 <pikhq> I had forgotten how mad this code was.
20:58:52 <Vorpal> olsner, unless the definition of what you do on incorrect data is part of the language that got substracted away
20:58:55 <olsner> Vorpal: well, the interpreter should print an error and abort
20:59:10 <pikhq> Especially where I copy a thunk before it's evaluated so that I can do an infinite list of input.
20:59:15 <Vorpal> olsner, in which case all programming languages minus themselves are the same programming language
20:59:16 <olsner> supposedly any computation would have to be in controlling the kind of error you get
20:59:37 <Vorpal> olsner, "how do we make this TC" ;)
21:00:02 <olsner> how to find TC-ness or making something TC is all I ever think about
21:00:41 <olsner> pikhq: sounds awesome... is this on the internet?
21:01:18 -!- alise_ has joined.
21:01:48 <pikhq> olsner: Lemme tar it up.
21:01:55 <olsner> for instance: do type-level calculation, cause a type mismatch, the "expected foo, found <...>" prints the output you've produced
21:02:16 <olsner> but that would be a slightly boring way to do it
21:02:30 <alise_> 12:46:22 <cpressey> fizzie: Wait, what? Why GC at the end? The OS will reclaim it all anyway!
21:02:35 <alise_> holy shit i missed this and everything after
21:02:38 <olsner> (oh, and the point would be that you have to make the type system so that there are no correct programs)
21:02:55 <olsner> I don't quite know how to do that
21:03:15 <alise_> 12:50:36 <Gregor> alise: Looks like you've got a Vorpal-hatred buddy X-P
21:03:15 <pikhq> I really, really need to get a webhost.
21:03:28 <olsner> pikhq: just put it on github?
21:03:37 <olsner> it works for pages and code anyway
21:04:36 <alise_> <alise> min(L+min(P,20),300)
21:04:36 <alise_> <alise> min(L+P,L+20,300)
21:04:36 <alise_> <alise> q=min(P,20);L=min(L+q,300)
21:04:36 <alise_> <alise> if P and L<301:U=min(U+q*3*(U>0),300);P-=q;T()
21:04:38 <alise_> <alise> Prizes for golfing this.
21:04:40 <alise_> <alise> Since when is Dwarf Fortress available for Linux?
21:04:57 <olsner> speaking of git: has anything been done in the field of esoteric version control?
21:05:23 <alise_> 13:00:10 <Vorpal> alise, debug.py?
21:05:27 <alise_> vagrant's debug launcher
21:05:39 <alise_> olsner: i think ais523 had some thoughts
21:05:43 <alise_> i have some thoughts too
21:05:47 <alise_> olsner: as for existing examples
21:05:58 <pikhq> olsner: No. Wants host.
21:06:00 <ais523> alise_: I have, but haven't got much futher
21:06:08 <ais523> also, it was a surprisingly non-eso project
21:06:22 <alise_> olsner: http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial/index.html
21:06:30 <alise_> or http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial-old/arch.html
21:06:37 <alise_> just http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/tutorial-old/arch.html
21:06:40 <alise_> is the complete, crazy one
21:06:47 <ais523> but I started with the concept of "version control system which can manage any command in any other common DVCS as a special case of one or more of its commands + a UI" and "only has five commands"
21:06:53 <ais523> and then tried to make things fit from there
21:07:01 <alise_> ais523: that's how git is designed
21:07:08 <alise_> except it's more like 10 commands i think
21:07:11 <ais523> yes, but git fails at it
21:07:14 <ais523> the 5 is very important
21:07:20 <alise_> that *exact* number? :P
21:07:25 <ais523> also, it fails at doing some things that, say, darcs does trivially
21:07:28 <ais523> and yes, that *exact* number
21:08:30 <olsner> minimalistic version control, I like the sound of it
21:08:37 -!- tombom has quit (*.net *.split).
21:08:38 -!- alise has quit (*.net *.split).
21:08:38 -!- Wamanuz has quit (*.net *.split).
21:08:53 <ais523> look, you can set arbitrary goals for an esolang, right?
21:08:57 <ais523> why can't you set them for other programs?
21:09:11 <olsner> maybe a place to start is to figure out the counterpart of turing complete for version control
21:09:27 <yorick> esoteric version control!
21:09:45 <ais523> alise_: I do have an idea of the model to use, though, and a name
21:09:50 <ais523> the name is... scapegoat
21:10:26 <ais523> alise_: <tswett> Who's ə? Me?
21:10:34 <ais523> ^ what is wrong with Agoran nicknames
21:10:35 <Gregor> Somebody needs to make a 2D competitive programming languages.
21:10:51 <ais523> someone was talking about BeYourFunge, or something like that
21:11:03 <Gregor> Awww, they're naming it after mine.
21:11:40 <alise_> Gregor: I did BeYourFunge, I think
21:11:43 <alise_> BeYorFunge it was I think
21:12:07 <Vorpal> alise_, ah ok (wrt debug.py)
21:12:19 <Gregor> Actually, somebody needs to make a 3D competitive programming ENVIRONMENT in which the programs can be written in any arbitrary language, and there's some overarching laws of physics to dictate how one might find another :P
21:12:25 <alise_> Vorpal: quick, if i give you the latest version will you see how long you can survive?!:!?!?!?!
21:12:29 <Gregor> In other words, we need a space-flight simulator where people write captain programs.
21:13:05 <alise_> > > > I lower ehird's position on the list by 1, for a fee.
21:13:42 <alise_> ais523: please tell me your model has deduplicative storage as a separate, non-main part
21:13:52 <alise_> (deduplicative = store diffs, not the entire tree, basically, for every revision)
21:13:56 <ais523> alise_: it's an implementation detail
21:14:11 <alise_> well, i'm talking details
21:14:12 <ais523> but the model is more easily implemented by storing diffs, than by storing trees
21:14:25 <ais523> doing it via trees would be awfully complex, except for caching
21:17:05 <alise_> how does it work, then?
21:17:26 <ais523> OK, rough explanation because a) this isn't written down anywhere, and b) I worked it out entirely in my head
21:17:37 <ais523> but basically, each line ever added to anything has its own unique ID
21:17:38 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise.
21:17:44 <alise> ais523: line? how ...
21:18:14 <ais523> also, indentation increase/decrease counts as a special token on a line of its own, but that's more incidental to the way everything works
21:18:38 <ais523> and it's not the literal text of the line that matters, more its platonic existence
21:18:58 <alise> no, but, being line-based
21:19:07 <ais523> well, it's meant to work like diff
21:19:16 <ais523> lines give a good approximation to how people think of programs
21:19:21 <ais523> you could do it with characters, it'd work just as well
21:19:29 <Gregor> Each byte added has a 128-bit ID.
21:19:30 <ais523> but probably confuse people because it didn't do merges how they wanted
21:20:15 <ais523> now, what's stored in the version control system are diffs, vaguely darcs-like, except that the diffs have a complete context of where they go
21:20:33 <ais523> e.g. "line ab239ca0 added between line 30adb123 and line 8923ad01"
21:21:09 <ais523> they don't need any context (as in unidiff context) other than that, because each line number refers to the line itself, plus its complete history, because every line belongs to the diff where it was added with complete context of where it comes from, etc.
21:22:22 <alise> wait, you have a concept of individual object history?
21:22:26 <alise> not versioning trees?
21:22:26 <ais523> in order to figure out the current state of the version control system, you effectively start with nothing and replay all the diffs until you end up with the files (this is likely to be optimizable, but as-if rule; that's how it works /conceptually/)
21:22:31 <alise> congrats -- you've invented either RCS or CVS
21:22:33 <alise> and I'm not sure which
21:22:44 <ais523> alise: that's the bottom level of abstraction
21:22:46 <alise> ais523: that's how darcs does it
21:22:51 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:22:55 <ais523> yep, darcs was a major inspiration
21:23:01 <Gregor> alise: CVS is just some centralization and network crap on top of RCS.
21:23:03 <ais523> although I didn't do everything exactly the same way
21:23:21 <ais523> anyway, above this layer of abstraction, you can also group sets of changes into a single change that represents them all
21:23:26 <alise> Gregor: And ... multiple file support, dude.
21:23:38 <ais523> that's the svn/darcs layer of abstraction if you group once (and also does multiple files)
21:23:46 <ais523> and the tag, etc, layer of abstraction if you do it twice
21:23:53 <alise> Gregor: Well, RCS works entirely on one file with no special directory for versioning.
21:23:56 <alise> So more than kinda :P
21:24:03 <ais523> thus, individual object history, repo versions, and tags are all the same concept, really
21:24:09 <ais523> helping to keep the command count down
21:24:56 <Gregor> alise: Yeah, but it didn't actually change anything intrinsic to do that, it just has per-file data, separated properly, and maintained in "modules" which are basically directories. At the actual version-control level, it's still one-file.
21:25:31 <Gregor> SVN has actual multi-file version control, and even that is just "give all the files the same number so people don't go batshit crazy trying to find a revision"
21:31:14 <olsner> alise: I don't think ais' thing is anything like RCS or CVS
21:33:06 <olsner> in particular, both RCS and CVS work on trees of files that contain history
21:33:42 <olsner> or each file contains a tree of versions of that file
21:36:04 <alise> Thanks entirely to quintopi, I have shortened Vagrant further!
21:36:07 <alise> X+=17<abs(X-x)and cmp(x,X);Y+=5<abs(Y-y)and cmp(y,Y)
21:36:12 <alise> X-=(X-x)//17;Y-=(Y-y)//5
21:36:32 <olsner> and CVS is mostly just networked centralized storage for all those RCS files instead of storing them locally
21:39:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:39:36 <olsner> ... looks like Gregor already said that though
21:40:36 <alise> / instead of // works
21:40:51 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
21:43:38 <alise> GreaseMonkey: what is?
21:44:22 <alise> actually in this case it ends up as floats, it just so happens that the way i use them makes this irrelevant
21:44:28 <alise> and jesus, it's python! slow already
21:44:35 <alise> / vs // won't help that
21:44:44 <alise> microoptimising python is an amazingly silly idea
21:44:52 <Sgeo> Isn't Python faster than Ruby or something?
21:45:09 <GreaseMonkey> alise: it's fast enough to play a .mod file on a 1.44GHz 32-bit single-core AMD machine at 32000Hz in stereo
21:45:11 <Sgeo> Also, this is #esoteric. Everything that happens here is silly
21:45:12 <alise> hmm wait I guess it isn't returning a float
21:45:23 <alise> GreaseMonkey: what a useless dump of statistics
21:45:39 <Sgeo> We should microoptimize the sample of BancSTAR code that we have
21:45:46 -!- augur has joined.
21:45:51 <GreaseMonkey> source: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/stuff/pymod.py.txt
21:45:52 <ais523> how, if you don't know what it does?
21:46:07 <alise> GreaseMonkey: 32000 Hz = .000032 GHz, your computer could sleep for a bloody year and it'd still play that
21:46:12 <Sgeo> There are people in the world who DO know what it does
21:46:14 <ais523> its author claimed it wasn't leaking commercially sensitive information because nobody knew what it did or what the commands were
21:46:16 <olsner> bancstar code starts out slow, but damn does it microoptimize well
21:46:45 <Sgeo> There's no place where we can find out more about it?
21:47:03 <GreaseMonkey> alise: it has to mix 4 channels at different frequencies, it's not a .wav file silly
21:47:15 <Sgeo> We should purchase a license from... whoever it is
21:47:41 <Sgeo> Although the latter might be tricky
21:47:45 <GreaseMonkey> and it's using about 54% CPU playing cd_orbit.mod
21:51:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:55:08 <olsner> hmm, bancstar is obviously a list of opcode,arg1,arg2,arg3
21:55:44 <olsner> Control structures available include the 3000 ("conditional"), 3001 ("block conditional"), and 3101 ("reverse block conditional"), as well as 8500 ("GOTO") and 8550 ("combination GOTO").
21:55:57 <olsner> (the opcode goes first btw)
21:56:06 <olsner> which I already said ... d'uh
21:56:58 <olsner> a bunch of "block conditional" in that one sample
21:58:18 <olsner> http://www.oocities.com/connorbd/tarpit/bancstar.html
21:59:02 <Sgeo> Does Broadway & Seymour still exist?
21:59:49 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:03:34 -!- augur has joined.
22:03:35 <olsner> I think that given documentation, this bancstar thing wouldn't even be very esoteric... it's just a poor source language
22:04:21 <olsner> in fact, why the heck didn't these people just write their own source language and compile it to bancstar?
22:05:43 <Phantom_Hoover> But the source language was crappy, so the developers just coded everything in BANCStar.
22:05:59 <olsner> ok, I should rephrase that... since the real source language was so crappy, why didn't they replace the source language instead of coding in the bytecode?
22:07:02 <olsner> but they obviously *could* be bothered writing this awful bytecode crap :)
22:07:26 <Sgeo> http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2001/07/16/daily41.html
22:07:35 * Sgeo attempts to follow the trail
22:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YPYYvZOGlU Does anyone else think this is cool?
22:09:24 <Sgeo> http://www.linkedin.com/companies/webtone-technologies
22:09:31 <olsner> there's also this: http://www.allbusiness.com/banking-finance/banking-lending-credit-services/7277371-1.html
22:10:43 <Sgeo> Searching for WinPrism gets some book management thing
22:11:37 <Sgeo> Fidelity Information Services still exists!
22:13:28 <Sgeo> Searching the site for WinPrism reveals nothing
22:13:44 <olsner> wealth management solutions!
22:15:12 <cpressey> < Gregor> In other words, we need a space-flight simulator where people write captain programs.
22:15:23 <cpressey> So, C-Robots, in 3D, and not just C.
22:15:38 <Gregor> If that's what C-Robots is, then YES! :P
22:15:55 <cpressey> < pikhq> I had forgotten how mad this code was. <-- to what do you refer?
22:17:08 <cpressey> < alise_> "Like Feather!" <-- FeatherSCM! woo!
22:17:10 <pikhq> cpressey: SKI interpreter using lambda in C.
22:17:22 <cpressey> it'd be the only one i'd use. if it existed
22:18:32 <cpressey> < alise> microoptimising python is an amazingly silly idea <-- happens all the time here :/
22:20:08 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:20:11 <cpressey> pikhq: i think i remember you writing that. or i;m confused.
22:20:26 <pikhq> cpressey: And it's fucking nuts.
22:20:59 <cpressey> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crobots
22:21:27 <olsner> Sgeo: one can only hope that FIS have gotten rid of this crap... then again they are still marketing a MUMPS-based thingy
22:21:41 <cpressey> ais523: if i were to design a SCM it would only work on S-Expressions
22:21:51 <Sgeo> They wouldn't have it in some storage facility somewhere?
22:22:18 <alise> lol, Sgeo is suddenly worried about bancstar being lost to the world
22:22:24 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
22:22:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq> cpressey: SKI interpreter using lambda in C. ← Sophisticated enough to run Lazy K?
22:22:50 <cpressey> < olsner> but they obviously *could* be bothered writing this awful bytecode crap :) <-- THAT'S HOW IT WORKS IN DE BIZNESS WURLD
22:23:29 <cpressey> the source language was probably *terrible* and they didn't have the resources/justification to make a better one
22:23:47 <Sgeo> alise, hey, nostalgia isn't a factor here
22:23:52 <cpressey> (the first * is the correction *)
22:24:29 <alise> Sgeo: but you're still worried about it
22:24:45 <cpressey> terrible, like, programming language implemented by someone with no familiarity with parsing or interpretation, theory or practice
22:24:48 <alise> cpressey: i think that it was some gui tool, i may be mistaken
22:25:01 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It currently implements a subset of Lazy K.
22:25:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Namely, the SKI subset.
22:25:16 <ais523> it was the bytecode used by a GUI code-gen tool
22:25:17 <Sgeo> I want to program in BancSTAR!
22:25:24 <ais523> but people used it directly because the code-gen tool wasn't very good
22:27:17 <pikhq> ... Wait, why the heck is this segfaulting?
22:27:38 <cpressey> well, if it was built by "gui programmers" that pretty much guarantees it was AWESOME.
22:27:44 <olsner> Sgeo: they have things called BancLine and BancPac, note the spelling of 'banc'
22:28:11 <alise> "Not a game, but rather a lawsuit" --TV Tropes
22:28:15 <cpressey> they've probably switched to Plain English now
22:28:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself).
22:28:33 <Sgeo> Would it be possible to ask if there's any relation to BancStar, particularly the bytecodes?
22:28:37 <alise> olsner: probably just a brand name
22:28:45 <alise> Sgeo: they probably don't know it ever existed. or deny it
22:29:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, FFS if you want it so hard, just write something that looks identical.
22:29:57 <olsner> and this TellerPlus that looks related to those BancLine/BancPac things is apparently *customizable* (in bancstar? :D)
22:30:05 <Sgeo> But it wouldn't be genuine BancSTAR
22:30:15 <Sgeo> Just something that fits what little we know of it
22:30:36 <cpressey> Use one of those fractal interpolators to infer the rest of BancSTAR
22:31:58 <ais523> alise: which game? I can't visit TV Tropes because I'm at work
22:32:02 <ais523> and thus, can't search it
22:32:21 <alise> ais523: Capcom vs. X series
22:32:26 <alise> some street fighter ripoff
22:32:29 <alise> the quote is the only amusing part
22:33:11 <Sgeo> Numbers below 3000, or maybe 2000, might be variables
22:33:27 <Sgeo> Wait, there are NEGATIVES?
22:33:48 <olsner> Sgeo: the text mentions a limit of 2000 variables
22:34:01 <ais523> also, that the language doesn't have constants
22:34:09 <ais523> so you need a spare variable to store constants in
22:34:17 <Sgeo> Are any numbers between 2000 and 3000?
22:34:30 <Sgeo> If not, maybe those would be meaningless
22:34:32 <olsner> maybe constants are just in the code, but surrounded by if's
22:34:51 <Sgeo> How do you store constants if you can't write constants?
22:35:11 <alise> "I really wish they made a sequel to The Matrix. It would have been awesome!" --reddit
22:35:12 <ais523> presumably variables can be initialized statically, or something
22:35:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's on my todo list!
22:35:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: are you sure you can use a diaeresis in that context?
22:35:37 <alise> ais523: it is correct
22:35:42 <alise> it isn't noooooooooone
22:35:50 <alise> start of a new syllable
22:35:54 <ais523> alise: according to normal pronunciation rules, yes
22:36:01 <ais523> that doesn't mean the word's actually spelled like that, though
22:36:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover that video doesn't load for me
22:36:10 <alise> ais523: err, it's orthography
22:36:14 <alise> ais523: diareses are valid everywhere
22:36:14 <ais523> words tend not to be spelled phonetically in English
22:36:18 <alise> *no " " at the start
22:36:20 <ais523> alise: and in reverse, too?
22:36:25 <ais523> I wouldn't call Zo-e a common name
22:36:27 <olsner> oh, based on this presentation I found, I get the impression that BancLine really could be the continuation of bancstar
22:36:28 <alise> ais523: it's an accent mark
22:36:42 <olsner> it looks like the kind of forms that would be built by something like that
22:36:42 <ais523> alise: and thus part of the spelling of a word
22:36:44 <alise> "noöne" is definitely correct.
22:37:00 <ais523> I mean, I accept, say, "preëmptive" because that's actually how you spell the word
22:37:16 <alise> hey, the diaeresis mark has a name
22:37:57 <ais523> but a "you can always replace a hyphen between syllables with adjacent vowels with a diaeresis" rule doesn't seem to be correct
22:38:09 <alise> ais523: doesn't even have to be between syllables
22:38:18 <alise> although doing it everywhere it can go is annoying, it's not incorrect
22:38:22 <ais523> well, you have to pronounce the two vowels separately
22:38:28 <ais523> that's what a diaeresis means
22:38:37 <ais523> and I find it hard to see how you could do that within a single syllable
22:38:45 <alise> you don't need a hyphen
22:38:46 <cpressey> I think if you were a Greek scholar you'd spell it... n/m
22:39:11 <alise> "The designated driver concept was developed in Scandinavia over several decades beginning in the 1920s"
22:39:17 <alise> Scandinavia, always inventing newer, more modern ways to be drunk.
22:39:26 <alise> cpressey: just use TeX codes for it!
22:39:35 <alise> romanise greek text :P
22:40:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it does now
22:41:52 <olsner> Sgeo: you know what you must do, you must aquire bancline and tellerplus and take it apart
22:42:13 <Sgeo> Do we in fact know that those are descended from BancSTAR?
22:43:07 <olsner> maybe you could just ask FIS if they know what happened to the code?
22:43:09 <Sgeo> At some point, I'm going to write an email to someone at FIS
22:43:25 <Ilari> Bancstar (what is known about it) looks like good base for an esolang...
22:45:43 <olsner> it's only esoteric because so little is known about it
22:46:35 <ais523> doesn't that also apply to Schrödilang?
22:47:06 <Sgeo> a.k.a. Feather?
22:47:08 <alise> cpressey: PC-BSD; pontificate
22:47:22 <ais523> olsner: a joke language, I think it's on the wiki
22:47:38 <ais523> the joke is that there's only one known description on a floppy disk, with a powerful magnet to erase it at random
22:47:49 <ais523> so nobody knows if there are any surviving descriptions or not
22:51:50 <Sgeo> Should I email World Headquarters?
22:52:09 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:52:16 <Sgeo> moreinformation@fisglobal.com
22:52:28 <alise> cpressey: didn't think so :)
22:52:33 <cpressey> alise: i was wondering if you could efficiently do occurs checks by hashing the terms somehow
22:52:34 <alise> Detroit; pontificate
22:52:50 <cpressey> Detroit is not nearly as cool as Windsor
22:53:03 <alise> Windsor; monoglicks?
22:53:16 <cpressey> Windsor: a Canadian city where you look north to see a major US city
22:53:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:54:01 <alise> no, Windsor: it's a place in Berkshire
22:54:15 <alise> cpressey: please -- stop me creating my own distro
22:54:17 <pikhq> cpressey: Which Windsor? There's 3 in Canada.
22:54:18 <alise> before all hell breaks loose
22:54:28 <pikhq> alise: 4 in the UK.
22:54:31 <cpressey> pikhq: the cool one where the SALT is packages
22:54:41 <alise> pikhq: the one with the castle in it
22:54:55 <cpressey> alise: ... there are cooler things to do with your time
22:55:08 <alise> yeah but they're harder
22:55:19 <cpressey> alise: that's why there are so many damned distros
22:55:20 <alise> they don't solve my day-to-day irritation
22:55:30 <pikhq> cpressey: So, Windsor, Ontario.
22:55:33 <alise> cpressey: trust me, mine is nothing like others :P (I've had it planned a while)
22:55:40 <alise> no, really, nothing.
22:56:08 <alise> ais523: I thought of what a FeatherSCM would look like
22:56:25 <cpressey> in windsor, ON, if you look north, across the detroit river, you see detroit.
22:56:47 <pikhq> Y'know, Detroit-Windsor is itself a very good argument for opening up the US-Canada border.
22:56:51 <cpressey> YakLinux ships with FeatherSCM. Film at 11
22:56:56 <alise> ais523: every change *retroactively* changes all the previous ones, because changes are in reverse: that is, each revision is an entire diff that turns the revision after it into the empty string. so you modify the previous diff so it turns the latest revision into the empty string, then the one before it to compensate, so on, forever
22:57:13 <ais523> that's not all that Feather-like, really, just ridiculous
22:57:18 <pikhq> (Detroit & Windsor are effectively a single city, seperated by a damned border crossing on the bridge between the two halves)
22:57:19 <alise> ais523: the key is that you collapse these
22:57:21 <alise> so instead of turning into ""
22:57:24 <alise> they turn into the revision before it
22:57:41 <alise> ais523: so to revert you just run a diff
22:57:48 <alise> ais523: it is feather, it's retroactive :P
22:58:06 <alise> is Windsor any good?
22:58:41 <pikhq> alise: Unlike Detroit, it has more to its economy than car manufacturing.
22:58:47 <alise> what i'm saying is
22:58:52 <alise> merging Detroit and Windsor would make Canada worse
22:58:58 <alise> for the benefit of *Detroit!*
22:59:01 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:59:43 <pikhq> alise: The border there is a bit like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Baarle-Nassau_fronti%C3%A8re_caf%C3%A9.jpg
22:59:49 <cpressey> This is how the rest of Canada knows Windsor: http://www.canadiandesignresource.ca/officialgallery/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/windsor_salt_canadian_design.jpg
23:00:01 <pikhq> ... Except with a damned customs checkpoint.
23:00:26 <cpressey> alise: Windsor kind of sucks too, but not anywhere near as bad as Detroit. It has some cool at the centre of its suckage.
23:00:44 <pikhq> cpressey: Like I said, Windsor has more to its economy than car manufacturing.
23:01:10 <alise> q=min(P,20);L=min(L+q,300)
23:01:10 <alise> if P and L<301:U=min(U+q*3*(U>0),300);P-=q;T()
23:01:14 <alise> still offering prizes for golfing this
23:01:30 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:01:33 <alise> pikhq: the river is a bit wider than that i think :)
23:01:42 <cpressey> alise: Also, one of my esolangs was designed and written up there.
23:02:12 <pikhq> alise: Yes, but still.
23:02:16 <alise> i think canada is my kind of country
23:02:20 <pikhq> alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AmbassadorBridgesunsetting1.jpg That's the actual bridge.
23:02:36 <alise> pikhq: 's a pretty big bridge :P
23:02:45 <alise> is that ice in the water?
23:02:56 <alise> i can't see clearly
23:03:06 <pikhq> Yes; Detroit is fucking cold in February.
23:04:08 <pikhq> alise: There's also a tunnel between the two, and a couple more bridges being built.
23:04:38 <alise> cpressey: have you ever been to winnipeg?
23:04:57 <pikhq> Because for some reason some 25% of trade between Canada & the US goes through Detroit-Windsor.
23:04:58 <cpressey> alise: Yes. In fact, I was born there.
23:05:16 <alise> cpressey: Is it, in fact, a, and I quote, "frozen shithole"?
23:05:21 <cpressey> and lived there for the first, er, >2/3 of my life.
23:05:53 <cpressey> alise: i don't know that i've ever heard that *exact* term, but it's not wholly inaccurate
23:06:14 <alise> cpressey: Is it, in fact, a "dogshit dildo"? Is it "fucking over"? Is it Steven Stapleton's armpit? Is it a boiling pot of cranberries?
23:06:33 <cpressey> alise: i will stick to the first term you proposed
23:06:48 <alise> PSHT NOBODY CAN APPRECIATE MY REFERENCES
23:07:05 <alise> cpressey: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Is_a_Frozen_Shithole)
23:07:09 <cpressey> yeah well no one's going to ever figure out mzstorkipiwanbotbotbot either.
23:07:42 <cpressey> possibly best if i wait til i'm home to follow that link
23:08:11 <alise> what a radical idea
23:10:30 <ais523> mzstorkipiwanbot: you still disagree with everything anyone says to you, right?
23:11:03 <ais523> fungot: do you disagree with mzstorkipiwanbot?
23:11:04 <fungot> ais523: i think now you're working on an os ( even ' kind of' proposed mean? ;p it might make sense
23:11:26 <ais523> oh well, I should go home
23:11:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:12:51 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Peacearch-usside.jpg The irony is you need to go through customs if you intend to go more than 50 feet past that "gate that will never close".
23:13:12 <alise> pikhq: is that the border?
23:13:17 <nooga> mother of common children mait
23:13:22 <alise> "Children of a common mother" is just wat
23:13:35 <alise> America, I think you need to read up on Canadian history
23:14:04 <cpressey> hey, another border crossing i've been through multiple times
23:14:16 <pikhq> As a special exception, you are permitted to go past the border crossing *there* without clearing customs.
23:15:07 <pikhq> However, you can't go past the nearby customs gates.
23:15:11 <alise> what format is /dev/dsp again?
23:15:17 <Sgeo> I _will_ play Aquaria
23:15:26 <pikhq> 8-bit unsigned PCM
23:17:10 <olsner> Sgeo: you _will_ find bancstar
23:17:18 <pikhq> At, uh. 8 kHz mono.
23:17:52 <pikhq> /dev/audio is 8-bit mu-Law at 8 kHz, BTW.
23:18:25 <alise> perl -e'print pack "c*",map {$_/=100;10*sin ($_*$_)} (0..25000)' >/dev/dsp
23:18:27 <Sgeo> olsner, yes, I will. Later
23:18:32 <alise> A swooping sci-fish effect.
23:18:47 <pikhq> alise: Well, that's fun.
23:18:53 <pikhq> If a bit shockingly loud.
23:19:43 <pikhq> 1.5 is *not* shockingly loud.
23:20:38 <alise> pikhq: Now make a song out of it.
23:23:22 <alise> #!/usr/bin/env perl
23:23:22 <alise> sub p { print pack 'c*', @_ }
23:23:22 <alise> close STDOUT; open STDOUT, '>', '/dev/dsp';
23:23:25 <alise> There's a header for you.
23:24:33 <Sgeo> Aquaria download is 209MB
23:24:36 <Sgeo> I have 199MB free
23:24:40 <Sgeo> After deleting SL
23:25:52 <Sgeo> Now I seem to have plenty of space
23:25:57 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: ~@f={/a>100?~/a=~/a-1&"PRIVMSG mzstorkipiwanbot :@f} -- or similar
23:26:58 <cpressey> alise: it'll look something like that
23:27:26 <cpressey> maybe #SELF can expand to the name of the bot or something
23:31:18 <pikhq> Taiwan's relationship with the US is so very fucked up.
23:31:29 <pikhq> “The act provides for Taiwan to be treated under U.S. laws the same as "foreign countries, nations, states, governments, or similar entities".”
23:31:43 <pikhq> Really. We say that they are an independent nation in all but name.
23:32:18 <alise> pikhq: please debug my perl >__>
23:32:35 <alise> zeroes should be silence to /dev/dsp, right?
23:32:50 <pikhq> alise: Not with unsigned PCM.
23:33:17 <alise> interestingly, my sin program works just as well piped to /dev/audio
23:33:26 <alise> is mu-Law really that similar to PCM?
23:33:59 <alise> a lot of my bytes seem to be getting dropped
23:34:04 <alise> sub z { my $x = shift; p (15 x $x) }
23:34:04 <alise> sub tck { p int(rand(256)) foreach 0..500 }
23:34:08 <alise> this is the same as tck;tck
23:34:25 <alise> i guess it isn't silence
23:34:38 <pikhq> alise: /dev/dsp is like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Pcm.svg but with more bits.
23:34:57 <alise> So... the midpoint.
23:35:09 <alise> Now tell me why it doesn't work.
23:35:27 <alise> so the packing is destroying it somehow ffff
23:35:46 <pikhq> And mu-Law is very close to PCM. It's PCM with a logarithmic scale instead of linear.
23:36:51 <Sgeo> You don't want to hear me song?
23:37:54 <Sgeo> Torture device: Me singing the Stargate Infinity theme
23:39:07 <cpressey> also make me watch ST:V at the same time
23:39:31 <Sgeo> ST:V isn't bad
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23:41:08 <alise> pikhq: pretty hard to get a sharp sound here
23:41:32 <pikhq> alise: Well, yes. It's 8kHz.
23:42:01 <alise> pikhq: yeah but there's gotta be some sort of cymbally noise
23:42:08 <alise> not everything has to be sludge!
23:42:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:42:30 <pikhq> Could you do it on a phone?
23:44:42 <alise> Say "TSSSS" into the phone with a ... hiss, not a proper s.
23:48:41 <Sgeo> How bad an idea would it be to put an installer on a remote machine (my school's machine) and run it locally?
23:49:16 <cpressey> Sgeo: i'm sure your school wouldn't mind!
23:49:33 <alise> pikhq: http://pastie.org/1206539.txt?key=rtv18vjbsp2ihxz2blygq My attempt at laying down the phat beats.
23:49:45 <Sgeo> cpressey, sarcasm?
23:52:39 <cpressey> Sgeo: what's on the schoolmachine?
23:54:09 <Sgeo> Some variety of Linux
23:54:52 * Sgeo creates an sdf account
23:55:20 <alise> pikhq: BTW, you know how you were talking about university financial aid sucking in the US?
23:55:31 <alise> Sgeo: the sdf admin is a huge jackass
23:56:51 <alise> Sgeo: when someone said something about the prices for registration or something he ranted about them, uhh, i don't remember, something idiotic and insulting about McDonalds
23:57:05 <alise> worse than Theo de Raat level insults :)
23:58:59 <pikhq> alise: BTW, that's just one of *many* things about US education that sucks.
23:59:01 <alise> pikhq: I looked it up out of curiosity and that situation definitely seems to be non-universal. At least, MIT was the first one I found giving clear info about it--
23:59:25 <pikhq> alise: MIT and the Ivy Leagues are some of the *few* schools that offer decent financial aid.
23:59:27 <alise> Statistics: 58% of undergrads awarded scholarship, average $26,800
23:59:38 <pikhq> That is coming *from MIT*.
23:59:57 <cpressey> Sgeo: I guess as long as you don't have the root password you can't fuck anything up TOO badly. for some reason i was assuming it was windows
00:00:03 <alise> And, uh, their policy that I now can't find was "we literally don't look at money at all when admitting, and then we promise you can attend if we accept you"
00:00:11 <alise> So a bad example to look at, then!
00:00:15 <alise> The others must be too ashamed to talk about it.
00:00:17 <Sgeo> cpressey, I wouldn't be installing it on the school's server
00:00:24 <Sgeo> I'd be using the server as storage space
00:00:30 <Sgeo> And using FUSE (I think) to install here
00:00:33 <pikhq> alise: Harvard hands out free rides to people who can't afford to go to there.
00:00:41 <pikhq> (that is, everything paid for)
00:00:49 <alise> pikhq: It's quite strange, that.
00:00:55 <alise> pikhq: Doesn't really gel with the elitism, does it?
00:00:56 <Sgeo> It's a 200mb file though
00:01:27 <pikhq> alise: Anyone who's accepted there is already sufficiently elite for them.
00:01:51 <alise> pikhq: Then Ivy League/MIT have a better system than the UK.
00:02:01 <alise> pikhq: Get into Oxford? ENJOY YOUR STUDENT LOAN'S CRIPPLING DEBT
00:02:08 <alise> YOU WILL BE STUCK WITH IT FOREVER
00:02:16 <alise> Fellate the wonderful student loan company! They love you!
00:02:29 <pikhq> alise: Even if you're coming from absolutely nothing, it's still someone who's pretty damned smart & hardworking, and as such likely to be future elite.
00:02:48 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, and Oxford's cheap by US standards. ;)
00:03:50 <alise> pikhq: It's probably cheaper to go to a European university.
00:04:03 <alise> But not quite as classy as being able to whip out your I-went-to-Oxford/Harvard card.
00:04:14 <pikhq> You want infuriating, though?
00:04:20 <pikhq> US public school lunches.
00:04:37 <alise> I don't want to know. I don't even want to know. Go on.
00:04:39 <pikhq> Fries & ketchup count as two servings of vegetables.
00:04:52 <pikhq> And as such, every lunch comes with them.
00:05:18 <Sgeo> "you sent it to All Course Faculty, instead of me, so it placed your message in a different inbox."
00:05:22 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU ANGEL
00:05:30 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU IN THE REAR END
00:05:52 <pikhq> Deep fried, breaded cheese can count as a main course. (mozzarella cheese sticks)
00:06:19 <pikhq> Or (and this is very common) the world's greasiest, blandest pizza.
00:07:16 <Sgeo> FUSE is what I think it is, right?
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00:08:57 <pikhq> alise: Oh, and fries covered with imitation American cheese food sauce!
00:09:11 <pikhq> ... With imitation bacon-flavored bits!
00:10:21 <pikhq> In fact, most of it comes with imitation cheese or very cheap cheese, because it comes effectively free.
00:10:27 <Sgeo> Do all distros use FUSE these days?
00:10:42 <pikhq> (as a farm support program, the government buys all excess cheese. Really.)
00:11:06 <alise> Sgeo: yes, for ntfs-3g.
00:11:17 <alise> pikhq: why is america
00:11:32 <Sgeo> And why does it mount by default under .gvfs?
00:11:41 <Sgeo> Is that an Ubuntu thing, a GNOME thing, or a FUSE thing?
00:11:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: GNOME thing.
00:12:14 <Sgeo> What does KDE do?
00:12:43 <alise> Sgeo: it's also fuse
00:12:47 <alise> it's gnome's vfs fuse filesystem
00:13:06 * Sgeo prefers GNOME's way
00:13:23 <Sgeo> KDE doesn't use FUSE?
00:14:08 <alise> Also, are you sure you understand either way?
00:14:10 <alise> KDE's is superior.
00:14:16 <alise> pikhq: Can you explain fraternities to me?
00:14:50 <alise> pikhq: But... but you see, I don't get it.
00:14:59 <Sgeo> I can't use what KDE does from the commandline, can I?
00:15:23 <alise> Sgeo: Go on, try and use .gvfs from the command-line.
00:15:30 <alise> Also, pretty sure there is some sort of command-line infrastructure for it.
00:15:40 <alise> pikhq: No seriously fraternities, explain them.
00:15:42 <Sgeo> alise, I'm about to
00:15:50 <Sgeo> As soon as this thing finishes uploading
00:16:40 <pikhq> alise: Uh, drunk bastards live in communal housing.
00:16:46 <pikhq> alise: That's... About it.
00:17:16 <alise> pikhq: So, what, is there no communal housing without the drunk part?
00:17:55 <pikhq> alise: Oh, they also get really worked up about it, due to practices such as "selective membership" and "keeping secrets".
00:19:53 <alise> pikhq: NOW EXPLAIN FREEMASONRY
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00:21:20 * Sgeo attempts to run a program located in .gvfs
00:21:44 <Sgeo> Seems to be working just fine
00:21:50 <Sgeo> A bit slow, really
00:23:30 <nooga> i think i should design really small objective lang that would allow to write concurrent programs easily
00:23:41 <nooga> some kind of event driven shit
00:24:07 <nooga> i'm thinking about my academic project for this semester
00:24:10 <alise> pikhq: FREEMASONRY
00:24:31 <Sgeo> Um, does sftp allow access to random parts of a file? If not, how does FUSE simulate it
00:25:26 <alise> Sgeo: by reading all of it.
00:26:17 <Sgeo> Um, how much random reading would a typical Linux installer require?
00:26:22 <nooga> alise: alpha lambda iota sigma epsilon
00:26:38 <alise> Sgeo: whatever you're doing, just don't.
00:27:08 <Sgeo> Having some trouble killing it
00:28:05 <Sgeo> I appear to be unable to access my own filesystem
00:28:43 <alise> pikhq: Now explain why you have weird names for every year of high school.
00:30:04 <alise> pikhq: EXPLAIN, AMERICA! Explain yourself!
00:30:10 <alise> America is on trial and YOU are its representative!
00:33:40 <pikhq> alise: Freshman sophomore junior senior? No clue.
00:34:14 <alise> pikhq: And then you... reuse freshman at college level.
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00:34:19 <alise> Because TERMINOLOGY SHOULDN'T BE USEFUL
00:34:38 <pikhq> Freshman sophomore junior senior through college, as well.
00:35:03 <pikhq> Though freshman is cognate to UK "fresher"...
00:35:15 <pikhq> Still, I got nothing.
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00:35:48 <alise> pikhq: Now freemasonry.
00:36:34 <alise> No? Alright then. Goodnight.
00:36:38 <pikhq> It's a UK organisation.
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00:36:42 <pikhq> That got exported.
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01:13:27 <pikhq> Hmm. A data: URI quine.
01:17:59 <Ilari> Can you use gzip or something in data: URI?
01:20:09 <pikhq> data:application/x-gzip;base64, says yes
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01:45:20 <Ilari> pikhq: Then it should be possible to make... There's already gzip quine.
01:45:41 <Sgeo> Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
01:45:45 <Sgeo> I've lost weight
01:46:08 <Sgeo> Unless the scale is off, or that's a normal range of variation
01:46:56 <Ilari> Sgeo: You don't happen to drink full-fat milk?
01:47:31 <Ilari> Ah... Because full fat milk isn't that great for weight gain...
01:47:40 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'm pretty sure that's not an *atypical* range of variation.
01:48:02 <pikhq> Why don't you just eat a typical American diet? Y'know, deep-fried lard.
01:48:23 <Sgeo> I kind of signed up for this bone marrow donor thing a while ago..
01:48:30 <Sgeo> And the limit is 110
01:49:09 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/do3cw/thats_what_happens_when_your_cs_curriculum_is/c11n5f1
01:49:13 <Ilari> Lard isn't great for weight gain either... Loads of carbohydrates and fats might work...
01:49:28 <pikhq> Ilari: I'm being silly.
01:49:46 <Ilari> Especially soft fats...
02:05:14 <Gregor> I spread soft fats on toast for breakfast.
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02:09:38 <Sgeo> Even if I was 111lbs, would it be safe for me to be donating blood?
02:11:38 <Ilari> Of course, weight gain using "all means necressary" might not be healthy...
02:14:41 <Ilari> You know, like some people getting Diabetes type 2 (NASTY NASTY disease) without even being "overweight".
02:15:43 <Sgeo> Is it possible to lose diabetes type 2?
02:16:56 <Ilari> Maybe... Maybe not...
02:17:45 <Ilari> (and that's to "if it is possible at all"). Typically it will not be lost.
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02:24:08 <Ilari> Its not even known what exactly causes diabetes type 2...
02:26:29 <Ilari> Type 2 diabetes is essentially extreme intolerance to carbohydrates and inability to keep blood sugars (even fasting) in check.
02:26:52 <Ilari> Due to very high levels of insulin resistance.
02:33:47 <pikhq> Ilari: So, what, all we know is that there is a *correlation* between excess consumption of carbohydrates & type 2 diabetes?
02:34:25 <Ilari> Its not carbohydrates per se. Nor it is fast carbohydrates per se...
02:35:01 <pikhq> Note that I'm just saying "correlation".
02:35:30 <pikhq> Which, as we all well know, says fuck-all about actual causes.
02:36:31 <cpressey> I had the impression it was something to do with the metabolization of carbohydrates.
02:40:51 <cpressey> I guess what I mean is we can say what "causes" it -- insulin is no longer doing what it's supposed to.
02:41:01 <cpressey> What causes *that* is the mystery.
02:41:26 <cpressey> Just one more thing that medicine is completely in the dark about.
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03:00:14 <cpressey> lament: #haskell is very active while #scheme is essentially dead. do you see any significance in this?
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03:16:08 <Ilari> Actually its known bit further: Pancreas can no longer pump the amount of insulin required to keep blood sugars in check. And when that happens, things start getting downhill really fast.
03:16:51 <Ilari> But what causes the extreme insulin resistance required...
04:11:02 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge9VfALthLI
04:14:25 <Gregor> That's an almost-surreal level of stupidity.
04:21:27 <lament> we'll he was probably mentally retarded. it's not really surreal
04:31:56 <pikhq> "It no open push harder".
04:32:50 <Gregor> It seems to me like if you're going to the basement, gravity's on your side anyway, so who needs the car?
04:33:25 <pikhq> Also, that elevator door seems kinda flimsy.
04:34:02 <pikhq> Granted, it's not like they *should* need to take someone ramming the door, but still...
05:08:19 <cpressey> should i watch this? perhaps this commentary and my imagination is quite enough
05:17:10 <Gregor> It's only 46 seconds, just watch it :P
05:17:22 <Gregor> And it's so, so mind-boggling.
05:19:38 <cpressey> dude i so do not remember my youtube login sigh
05:26:52 <pikhq> ｱｲ ﾜﾝﾀﾞ ﾜｲ ｴﾆﾜﾝ ｴﾊﾞ ｻｳｯﾄ ｻﾞｯﾄ ﾊｰﾌ ｳｨｯｽ ｶﾀｶﾅ ﾜｽﾞ ｱ ｸﾞｰﾄﾞ ｱｲﾃﾞｨｱ｡ [ai wanntà wai eniwann ehà sau'to sà'to hâhu uī'su katakana wasù a k`ûtò aitèīa.](I wonder why anyone ever thought that half-width katakana was a good idea.)
05:29:09 <Gregor> cpressey: ... you don't need to log in to YouTube to watch videos ...
05:29:49 <pikhq> Gregor: That one you do.
05:29:55 <cpressey> Gregor: it wanted to confirm i was >=18 years old
05:30:12 <cpressey> because google is supergenuises
05:30:23 <Gregor> It's not like it's pornographic, or even violent really ...
05:32:58 <cpressey> Gregor: the youtube community HAS SPOKEN.
05:35:19 <Gregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo-yo The infobox on this page makes me laugh.
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05:47:58 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: I'm waiting for anyone to say anything at all in #scheme.
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05:50:36 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot, are you a Hobbit?
05:51:42 <fizzie> Oo, you've made it more positive.
05:52:34 <cpressey> but it recognizes privmsgs and commas after its name now
05:54:08 <cpressey> hey, someone said something in #scheme
05:59:30 <cpressey> what's a good language to rewrite it in?
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06:12:06 <cpressey> hm, lua patterns -- not so powerful (no captures)
06:13:04 <cpressey> no no i wrong there is captures yay
06:13:26 <Ilari> IIRC, they have captures, but are not full regular expressions.
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06:16:17 <cpressey> yes. looks like you can't do kleene star (etc) on a group. only on a character class.
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06:19:55 <oerjan> 21:55:26 <cpressey> 23:51 < Riastradh> Boo!
06:19:55 <oerjan> 21:59:30 <cpressey> what's a good language to rewrite it in?
06:20:04 <oerjan> those were in the wrong order, right?
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06:22:00 * oerjan doesn't actually know Boo, but it has a good name
06:22:18 <cpressey> Something about duck typing and .NET is all I remember
06:22:53 <oerjan> statically typed said google's wp abstract
06:23:14 <cpressey> it could be static duck typed i guess
06:23:15 <oerjan> (you note i didn't bother to actually click it :D)
06:27:32 <cpressey> but "structural" i have never heard of in that way
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06:39:40 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: what language are you written in now?
06:39:55 <lament> mzstorkipiwanbot: I have cancer
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06:42:12 <cpressey> it has Genuine People Personalities
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06:42:25 <cpressey> it should not respond to me if I just say things
06:42:36 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot, but you should respond to this
06:43:20 <cpressey> ok wow. i am such an l33t c0d3r
06:43:34 <cpressey> now let's see if it survives a ping
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06:48:57 <oerjan> it didn't say ping timeout
06:49:06 <cpressey> no, it did survive. then i killed it
06:49:33 <cpressey> i made it better, faster, stronger, able to respond to privmsgs
06:55:25 <fizzie> From the Gophernicus (Gopher server) README: "Gophertags: A gophertag file can be used to rename a directory without renaming the di... uh, confusing. Ask Cameron."
06:55:30 <fizzie> That's some quality documentation.
06:56:13 <oerjan> Cameron was of course last seen prepare to fly a small plane over the pacific
06:57:38 <oerjan> ironically looking for amelia earhart
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10:28:41 <cheater> anyone got the latest version of vagrant
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11:24:44 <alise> 15:39:31 <Sgeo> ST:V isn't bad
11:24:48 <alise> well right actually
11:29:24 <alise> 02:16:05 <cheater> hi
11:29:24 <alise> 02:28:41 <cheater> anyone got the latest version of vagrant
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11:45:11 <alise> <alise> 02:28:41 <cheater> anyone got the latest version of vagrant
11:55:43 <alise> cheater: ^ presumably you want it?
12:19:00 <alise> [[The saying “I have got your back” almost never has the literal meaning of receipt or possession of another’s spine.]] --Wikipedia
12:19:57 <alise> cheater: do you have the new debug.py
12:21:37 <alise> http://pastie.org/1207461.txt?key=sjdgc6ofjjhavzf6dhcwvg vagrant.py
12:21:39 <alise> http://pastie.org/1207462.txt?key=yb3txfhuiste4fydjs3eg debug.py
12:22:47 <alise> cheater: I think this *may* break on Python 2.7.
12:22:52 <alise> Since it uses / for floor(x/y).
12:27:46 <alise> wait no it should work
12:45:51 <alise> cheater: BAH SO UNAPPRECIATIVE
12:53:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
12:53:24 <alise> Hi Phantom_Hoover.
12:54:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Alt.
12:55:45 <alise> Things I saw today: A pretentious person nit-picking perfectly fine grammar on a self-avowed prescriptivist's about page.
12:57:48 <alise> I always mix 'em up, I do.
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13:01:50 <alise> Yes, goddammit! Stop mentioning t!
13:02:02 * alise strangles Phantom_Hoover
13:04:10 <alise> Good lord, the writer of Megatokyo is over forty. It must take great skill to be that much of a 20-year-old shut-in for the purpose of making a terrible webcomic.
13:04:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
13:04:17 <alise> Yes, I am knocked out.
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13:07:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone have a copy of this month's National Geographic to hand?
13:07:50 <alise> No -- should I, and why?
13:07:54 -!- wareya has joined.
13:08:15 <alise> I like National Geographic's logo a lot.
13:08:54 <Vorpal> alise, I presume you noticed llvm 2.8 is out btw?
13:09:18 <alise> Vorpal: I don't follow LLVM. Probably because I don't use it.
13:09:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
13:09:29 <Vorpal> alise, I thought you loved clang?
13:09:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's quite a strong brand identity, I feel. Also the proportions are nice.
13:09:49 <alise> Vorpal: Well, "love" is a bit strong for anything to do with C -- or Unix -- but I like it, yes.
13:09:54 <alise> gcc is still my go-to compiler out of laziness, however.
13:10:09 <Vorpal> alise, well yeah, same here
13:10:16 <Phantom_Hoover> The proportions are more or less standard A4, aren't they?
13:10:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Feel free to work it out. Anyway, I just like it because it's extremely simple and sticks in the mind.
13:12:42 <alise> Ahh, GIMP. It's utterly horrible and it's all you've got!
13:13:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortunately, I only need to get approximate pixel counts.
13:13:16 <alise> The GIMP developers need, like, an award for terrible UI design.
13:14:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Sort of."
13:15:02 <fizzie> I've long known that the An series has the 1:sqrt(2) aspect ratio -- which is of course nice because of the fold-in-half property, 1/sqrt(2) = sqrt(2)/2 -- but I only recently realized that the absolute sizes have a logic in them, too: A0 has a surface area of one square metre. (Well, .0999949, but that's just because the edge lengths have been rounded to millimetres.)
13:15:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: When the GIMP started, they wrote all sorts of widgets and infrastructure to fit their needs.
13:15:13 <alise> Then they ripped GTK out of it, but I'm pretty sure it's been rewritten by now, what with 2.0 and all.
13:15:47 <alise> fizzie: Yes, the An series is rather excessively mathematical. :)
13:16:03 <alise> The 1:sqrt(2) ratio isn't so aesthetically pleasing though, in my opinion.
13:16:12 <alise> I mean, A4 pieces of paper just look... slightly too long.
13:16:18 <fizzie> "It can be shown that the B series formats are geometric means between the A series format with a particular number and the A series format with one lower number. For example, B1 is the geometric mean between A1 and A0." Heh.
13:16:53 <alise> [[In order to construct its interface GIMP uses the GIMP tool kit (GTK+). GTK+ was designed to replace Motif, a proprietary toolkit upon which GIMP depended. Originally GTK+ was a part of the GIMP source tree, but has since been made into a standalone library. While originally being designed to run on Unix-like operating systems, GIMP and GTK+ have been ported to Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X, and other operating systems.]]
13:17:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So GTK+ was always separate, in another directory, at least. It seems.
13:18:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Based on your downscaled pixel copy.
13:19:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I wasn't using a particularly accurate method to get the pixel counts.
13:20:36 <alise> Now -- is it intentional?
13:20:54 <alise> "Beastie wontedly carries a trident to symbolize a software daemon's forking of processes."
13:20:58 <alise> Oh God, I never got that until now.
13:21:24 <alise> *groan*, the BSD daemon isn't free either:
13:21:26 <alise> [[The copyright of the BSD daemon is held by Marshall Kirk McKusick (a very early BSD developer who worked with Bill Joy). He has freely licensed the mascot for individual "personal use within the bounds of good taste (an example of bad taste was a picture of the BSD daemon blowtorching a Solaris logo)." Any use requires both a copyright notice and attribution.]]
13:24:20 <alise> Double groan -- and then from the linked page "Devilette":
13:24:24 <alise> [[Devilette (also known as daemonbabe, daemonchick, daemoness, daemonette, and BSD chick) is a brunette woman garbed in a red latex catsuit with horns and a tail, stylized after the BSD Daemon. They are often spotted as promotional models at BSD-related events. The original BSD chick was Ceren Ercen of FreeBSD Test Labs, whose position there was "Strange Attractor".]]
13:24:28 <alise> Sexism? What's that?
13:33:57 <cheater> alise: i like you because you have nice breastesses
13:34:38 <alise> That sentence is so flawed it needs a medal. Or a plaque, to warn others -- "On the 8th of October 2010, at this site, ..."
13:36:47 <cheater> alise: http://www.bishopston.com/jamie/misc/bsd-daemonette/bsd.jpg
13:37:40 <cheater> miffy wo-Men whip their twats out in an attempt to attract the desperates, therefore creating sexism
13:37:45 <cheater> they're the actual source of it
13:38:08 <alise> I have absolutely no response.
13:42:06 <alise> cheater: you do realise you just tried to explain the existence of sexism with absurd sexism?
13:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, the New Scientist have interviewed Jon Richfield.
13:45:08 * alise puts the troll on /ignore
13:49:13 * cheater stares at alise real hard. :
13:57:19 -!- alise_ has joined.
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13:58:09 <cheater> alise_: are you mad at me or something?
13:58:25 <alise_> hm restarting my client removed the ignore
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14:00:46 <cheater> that just made no sense what so ever
14:01:04 <alise_> Now why is there a Jerry Falwell quote in my fortune DB?
14:13:04 <alise_> http://adamcadre.ac/content/deviance.png
14:15:06 <alise_> You know -- at the bottom.
14:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_, that link redirects to http://a.imageshack.us/img714/3807/hotlinko.jpg
14:17:31 <alise_> Oh. Well, see the legend!
14:17:33 <alise_> http://adamcadre.ac/misc.html
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14:21:54 <cheater> alise: stop being childish. you haven't even discussed this with me, and decided to clam up like a teenag... oh.
14:22:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hotlinking.
14:23:03 <alise> Alas, poor HackEgo.
14:23:40 <alise> I, too, can quote Shakespeare.
14:24:49 <cpressey> < alise> Vorpal: I don't follow LLVM. Probably because I don't use it. <-- omg follow llvm on facebook
14:25:04 <alise> LLVM has 34573589347534895793478934534539458345 fans.
14:25:25 <cpressey> you can't. but there is a llvm interest page. written in italian, for reasons not known to me. 32 people like it.
14:25:28 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.11826 \ wunderbar_emporium
14:25:39 <HackEgo> addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ fuck \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ penis \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runasperl \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ twat \ unstr \ url \ vagina \ wolfram
14:25:42 <HackEgo> 93|<Oranjer> oohhh <Oranjer> ha <Oranjer> heh <madbrain> and what are your other characteristics? <Oranjer> oh, many, madbrain <Oranjer> but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here
14:25:47 <cpressey> < alise> gcc is still my go-to compiler out of laziness, however. <-- i have switcht to pcc
14:26:09 <alise> cpressey: haha, really?
14:26:18 <alise> `etymology etymology
14:27:51 <HackEgo> entomology \ 1766, from Fr. entomologie (1764), coined from Gk. entomon "insect" + -logia "study of" (see -logy). Entomon is neut. of entomos "having a notch or cut (at the waist)," from en "in" (see en- (2)) + temnein "to cut" (see tome). So called by Aristotle in reference to the segmented division of insect bodies. Compare
14:27:51 <HackEgo> rabies \ 1590s, from L. rabies "madness, rage, fury," related to rabere "be mad, rave" (see rage). Sense of "madness in dogs" was a secondary meaning in Latin. \ \ rage (n.) \ c.1300, from O.Fr. raige (11c.), from M.L. rabia, from L. rabies "madness, rage, fury," related to rabere "be mad, rave." Related to rabies, of
14:27:51 <HackEgo> etymology \ late 14c., ethimolegia "facts of the origin and development of a word," from O.Fr. et(h)imologie (14c., Mod.Fr. tymologie), from L. etymologia, from Gk. etymologia, properly "study of the true sense of a word," from etymon "true sense" (neut. of etymos "true," related to eteos "true") + logos "word." In classical
14:28:16 <HackEgo> childish \ O.E. cildisc "proper to a child," from child + -ish. Meaning "puerile, immature, like a child" in a bad sense is from early 15c. Related: Childishness. \ \ ma \ 1823, childish or colloquial shortening of mamma. \ \ gran \ childish abbreviation of grandmother, 1863. \ \ peepee \ 1923, childish reduplication
14:28:40 <alise> `cat bin/etymology
14:28:51 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Look up what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://etymonline.com/?search='"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 100 ']'"$1" | \ sed 's/\[[0-9]*\]//g ; s/ Look up.*// ; s/ */ /g'
14:29:03 <HackEgo> egocentric \ 1900, from ego + -centric. Related: Egocentricity; egocentrism. \ \ \ * Introduction and abbreviations \ * Who did this? \ * Sources \ * Links \ \ * 2001-2010 Douglas Harper \ * Logo design by LogoBee.com \ * Page design and coding by Dan McCormack \ \ References \ \ 1. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php
14:29:36 <HackEgo> selfish \ 1630s, from self + -ish. Said in Hacket's life of Archbishop Williams (1693) to have been coined by Presbyterians. In the 17c., synonyms included self-seeking (1620s), self-ended and self-ful. \ \ Let us understand what our own selfish genes are up to, because we may then at least have the chance to upset their
14:29:46 <HackEgo> infantile \ 1690s, "pertaining to infants," from L. infantilis, from infans (see infant). Sense of "infant-like" is from 1772. \ \ ta \ 1772, "natural infantile sound of gratitude" [Weekley]. \ \ tummy \ 1867, infantile for stomach. Tummy-ache is attested from 1926. \ \ poliomyelitis \ 1878, from Gk. polios
14:29:51 <cpressey> alise: for my own stuff, yes. obv there is not a lot "out there" that i can get to compile with it
14:30:23 <HackEgo> infantry \ 1570s, from Fr. infantrie, from older It., Sp. infanteria "foot soldiers, force composed of those too inexperienced or low in rank for cavalry," from infante "foot soldier," originally "a youth," from L. infantem (see infant). \ \ zouave \ 1848, from Fr., from Arabic Zwawa, from Berber Igawawaen, name of a
14:30:46 <alise> cpressey: hmm, i thought pcc had pretty good compatibility
14:30:49 <alise> any examples of failure?
14:31:13 <cpressey> alise: it's more to the effect of makefiles written with gcc specifically in mind. also i'm lazy
14:33:00 <alise> cpressey: have you played VAGRANT yet?
14:33:18 <HackEgo> bipolar \ "having two poles," from bi- + polar; 1810 with figurative sense of "of double aspect;" 1859 with reference to physiology. Psychiatric use in reference to what had been called manic-depressive psychosis is said to have begun 1957 with Ger. psychiatrist Karl Leonhard. The term became popular early 1990s. Bipolar disorder
14:33:26 <cpressey> alise: no. i will tonight if the latest copy is conspicuously posted to a pastbin somewhere.
14:33:39 <cpressey> i spent last night rewriting mzstorkipiwanbot in lua
14:33:57 <alise> cpressey: paste it now or later?
14:34:09 <cpressey> alise: now unless you plan awesome upgrades today
14:34:19 <alise> well, i am working on it
14:34:27 <alise> cpressey: it sort of lacks monster AI right now, but you can see how long you can survive and stuff
14:35:26 <alise> It's currently 1600 bytes plus an ending newline.
14:35:38 <alise> (which isn't required, I just have it in there; I'll remove it, I guess)
14:35:53 <alise> oh, emacs doesn't let me :)
14:38:06 <HackEgo> silly \ O.E. geslig "happy" (related to sl "happiness"), from W.Gmc. *sligas (cf. O.N. sll "happy," Goth. sels "good, kindhearted," O.S. salig, M.Du. salich, O.H.G. salig, Ger. selig "blessed, happy, blissful"), from PIE base *sel- "happy" (cf. Gk. hilaros "gay, cheerful," L. solari "to comfort," salvus "whole, safe"). The
14:39:46 <alise> "You know Mario Kart is practically designed to let the worse player win, right?"
14:39:48 <alise> NO NO NO DON'T SAY THAT
14:40:43 <HackEgo> hateful \ late 14c., from hate + -ful. \ \ loath \ O.E. la "hostile, repulsive," from P.Gmc. *laithaz (cf. O.Fris. leed, O.N. leir "hateful, hostile, loathed;" M.Du. lelijc, Du. leelijk "ugly;" O.H.G. leid "sorrowful, hateful, offensive, grievous," Ger. Leid "sorrow;" Fr. laid "ugly," from Frankish *laid). Weakened
14:41:09 <HackEgo> hostile \ late 15c., from M.Fr. hostile "of or belonging to an enemy," from L. hostilis, from hostis "enemy" (see guest). The noun meaning "hostile person" is recorded from 1838, Amer.Eng., a word from the Indian Wars. \ \ foe \ O.E. gefa "adversary in deadly feud," from fah "at feud, hostile," from P.Gmc. *fakhaz
14:41:09 <HackEgo> unfair \ O.E. unfgr "unlovely," from un- (1) "not" + fair. Cf. O.N. ufagr, Goth. unfagrs. Meaning "wicked, evil, bad" is recorded from c.1300. Sense of "not equitable, unjust" is first recorded 1713. \ \ unequal \ 1530s, "unjust, unfair," from un- (1) "not" + equal. Meaning "not the same in amount, size, quality, etc." is recorded
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14:44:33 * alise writes AI super-verbosely to reduce later
14:52:41 <alise> Hey, they follow me now.
14:52:43 <alise> Unrealistically, but...
14:52:49 <alise> cpressey: Quick, propose a crazy HP system.
14:54:07 <alise> cpressey: ...I have a crazy one, if you're dry for ideas.
14:57:29 <alise> cpressey: Here's a clue (well -- giveaway) as to how my method works:
14:57:44 <alise> To decode the HP from the character value in the field, you do int(1/.(x-81))-1
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14:59:34 <alise> cpressey: and to give the rest away, to encode the HP, add 1/(hp+1) to the character value.
14:59:54 <alise> 123 hp = 81.008064516129039
15:05:58 <cpressey> hp for monsters,81=Q, i get that much
15:07:03 <cpressey> anyway, it might be more fair to say DICE C is my go-to compiler these days :D
15:07:23 <alise> cpressey: 81 is Q, yeah
15:07:27 <alise> but storing hp in the actual character grid
15:07:31 <alise> is done with this method
15:07:34 <alise> and then D() just does int(cell)
15:07:36 <alise> so that they all show as Q
15:07:42 <alise> this is just my current plan
15:07:48 <alise> if not entirely serious
15:07:55 <cpressey> here i thought beefier monsters would be R, S, T...
15:10:37 <alise> cpressey: ooh, that's almost an amazing idea
15:11:00 <alise> cpressey: but it's TOO PRECISE, it doesn't have float rounding quirks!
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15:32:42 <alise> cpressey_ sees all the presseys
15:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover> " Scaling Everest was, by far, the most amazing and transformative experience of my life. Unfortunately, this is a thesis on context-free grammars. "
15:33:31 -!- nooga has joined.
15:33:52 <nooga> do you guys know any mechanical CADs for linux?
15:33:59 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ... lawl.
15:36:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes :)
15:36:46 <alise> Gregor: (It's from the Little Lytton contest.)
15:37:01 <Phantom_Hoover> " The king of ketchups was being dethroned, and I wanted an explanation. "
15:37:08 <alise> > the truth of the condition, the only conclusion is that it's undecidable
15:37:08 <alise> > whether or not alise managed to become inactive; unlike, say,
15:37:08 <alise> > registration where there's a requirement to be reasonably unambiguous,
15:37:08 <alise> Who's alise?]] --Ed Murphy, Agora
15:38:43 <Phantom_Hoover> " Anamaria had already gotten up obviously because there was no Anamaria in Anamaria’s bed. "
15:39:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Wha?"?
15:39:20 <cpressey_> "Today we are randomly quoting stuff"
15:40:23 <alise> the context was given in the email!
15:42:21 <alise> [[Dr. Metzger turned to greet his new patient, blithely unaware he would soon become a member of a secret brotherhood as old as urology itself.]]
15:42:34 <Phantom_Hoover> " Sophi broke down in tears, like a diesel car that had run out of petrol. "
15:44:24 <alise> "His eyes were brown, although you wouldn't know it just by looking."
15:51:16 <Phantom_Hoover> " * There is simply no scientific or mathematical formula that defines conservatism."
15:54:48 <alise> "What I like about the second one is not the content but rather the way the reader has to suddenly recast what seemed like simple narration as the thoughts of a character who is for some reason thinking in the narrative pluperfect."
15:58:33 <Phantom_Hoover> "This raises the question of how often Asian-Americans who themselves have Anglo names decide to play up the ethnic heritage angle. Like, if Matt and Lisa Sullivan of Somerville can stick their kid with something like Siobhan, do Tim and Amy Lee of Sunnyvale ever say, "Fuck it — we're going with Huang"? "
16:00:29 -!- cpressey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:02:16 <Phantom_Hoover> " The meteor formed a crater, vampires crawling out of the crater. "
16:02:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Bill's goiter had burst and it was on my head, Mary thought quietly." was it
16:05:02 <alise> The door dilated[1].
16:05:03 <alise> [1]This is in the future, when doors dilate instead of opening the way they do now.
16:06:51 <alise> "It clawed its way out of Katie, bit through the cord and started clearing."
16:08:30 <alise> [[Ah, poetic Paris: with its pâtés and beaujolais, tiramisu and au jus.]]
16:08:40 <alise> can't stop laughing
16:09:20 <alise> The ship sliced through the ocean like wood through water.
16:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> " The saying “I have got your back” almost never has the literal meaning of receipt or possession of another’s spine. " ← Wikipedia strikes back!
16:10:49 <alise> MacGyver had grown old.
16:11:22 <alise> “What a horrible future we live in!” said FutureMax!
16:11:47 <alise> "The flowers in the meadow grew slowly, as did my erection."
16:11:52 <alise> WE'RE READING THE LYTTLE LYTTON RESULTS
16:11:55 <alise> ISN'T THAT QUOTABLE
16:12:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:13:57 <alise> Fukutsuru died in 2005 but his frozen sperm lived on for people’s benefit.
16:14:02 <alise> ^ this is the all-time winner, from Wikipedia
16:14:53 -!- lament has joined.
16:14:58 <alise> Alternate version of that: "Fukutsuru died in 2005 but he lives on through the continued use of his frozen sperm."
16:15:09 <alise> Fukutsuru is survived by his frozen sperm.
16:16:08 -!- cpressey_ has joined.
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16:19:18 <cpressey_> it is unavoidable in some greater, pseudo-philosophical sense
16:19:21 <oerjan> aka second law of thermodynamics
16:20:12 <lament> that's a good justification for sloppy coding
16:22:00 <cpressey_> the number one justification is still "who cares, it will save us tens of thousands of dollars", i think
16:23:17 <Gregor> The second law of thermodynamics is a good justification for sloppy coding.
16:23:43 <alise> Gregor has cpressey_ on ignore
16:26:18 <cpressey_> or he has collapse-aka turned on in his reasoning module
16:26:57 <cpressey_> Gregor: I am reminded of an NNTP header I saw on usenet once a long time ago
16:27:11 <cpressey_> Organization: None (why fight entropy?)
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16:28:42 <alise> I love the vision of an AI opening his Preferences dialogue and turning on all these silly options.
16:28:49 <alise> patience-level [====[ ]========]
16:28:58 <alise> [ ] use-contractions
16:29:28 <alise> *image, not vision
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16:32:36 <Gregor> [ ] appreciate music and poetry
16:32:44 * oerjan wonders if blind people have auditions instead of visions
16:33:11 <alise> Gregor: NO ROBOST DO NOT USE SPACSE
16:33:16 <alise> BECAUSE COMPUTERS OND'T
16:33:31 <alise> I could not have spelled "don't" more incorrectly.
16:33:56 <oerjan> an evil spelling if you know your norwegian
16:35:34 <Gregor> alise: O'NTD say you couldn't have spelled "don't" more incorrectly.
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16:48:45 <fungot> cpressey_: i mean, there are alot of scheme documents including tutorials here: http://www.schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ r5rs/ html/ mzlib/ mzlib-z-h-40.htmlnode_chap_40
16:57:18 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if the helium shortage will result in the moon landings being taken seriously again.
16:57:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
16:57:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No.
16:57:59 <oerjan> ...ah. i guess norway can scratch that new trade deal we trying to get with china.
16:58:36 <alise> i love how it's we
16:58:41 <alise> like you're all part of the government
16:58:43 <alise> and share in the spoils
17:02:11 <oerjan> atmosphere probably has some, even if it leaks
17:02:25 <alise> recycle the balloons
17:02:26 <oerjan> it's just more expensive to extract
17:02:38 <alise> "you don't own the balloon, you just rent it out"
17:02:55 <oerjan> alise: the problem with that is that balloons leak helium too.
17:03:15 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
17:03:35 <oerjan> besides half the fun with helium balloons is making helium voices
17:04:04 <alise> oerjan: omg i just realised that i've never inhaled helium
17:04:13 <alise> seconds later, i realise that i'm probably too scared to
17:04:16 <oerjan> i'm not sure i have either, actually
17:05:21 <alise> Fun fact: Joe Pasquale actually inhaled an entire tank of helium as a child.
17:05:31 <alise> And when it runs out...
17:06:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: why would there be more helium on the moon than earth, anyway? it's not like the moon keeps it any better.
17:07:24 <oerjan> without an atmosphere to speak of at all
17:08:24 <alise> oerjan: well it's made of cheese, and we all know what a main component of cheese is...
17:08:34 <Phantom_Hoover> "The abundance of helium-3 is thought to be greater on the Moon (embedded in the upper layer of regolith by the solar wind over billions of years) and the solar system's gas giants (left over from the original solar nebula)"
17:08:56 <oerjan> also about fusion - last time i saw a discussion someone pointed out that to get enough helium from fusion we would have to increase energy consumption a _lot_
17:09:02 <Phantom_Hoover> You could always synthesise helium with a load of alpha sources.
17:09:07 <alise> http://thisisindexed.com/ needs more plotlines.
17:09:18 <alise> oerjan: CAN WE NOT JOKE
17:09:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that's helium-3, the less common isotope iirc
17:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yes, but later in that sentence it says the He-4 concentration is ~28ppm.
17:09:55 <oerjan> alise: YOU DON'T JOKE ABOUT SCIENCE
17:10:06 <alise> http://fakescience.tumblr.com/
17:10:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm yeah i guess if there is a process to get it into the moon rock faster than it leaks out
17:10:53 <cpressey_> I want Vorpal to contribute to this discussion
17:11:01 <alise> cpressey_: i really don't
17:11:37 <cpressey_> alise: how about ancient Chinese sage Fu Zhun?
17:11:45 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, the helium is being smashed straight into the rocks, rather than having to go through an atmosphere.
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17:13:43 <alise> Ah, L'oeuvre of the Louvre.
17:17:30 <alise> http://www.rainerspehl.com/IEproject.php?nr=59 WOODEN LAPTOP CASE
17:19:58 <cpressey_> oerjan: the kolakoski sequence leaks memory.
17:20:44 <cpressey_> and the kolakoski sequence is part of number theory. therefore number theory leaks memory
17:21:22 <oerjan> well in a sense every non-repeating sequence leaks memory
17:21:47 <oerjan> since you need arbitrary large memory to generate it
17:22:25 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolakoski_sequence
17:25:26 <cpressey_> oerjan: if a sequence is non-repeting, you need arbitrarily much storage; if you need arbitrarily much storage to generate it, your sequence must be non-repeating
17:25:51 <cpressey_> equivalent, unless my eyes deceive me!
17:25:59 <cpressey_> or whatever part of my body it is that does that
17:26:37 <cpressey_> but have we proved that kolakoski is non-repeating? ... i don't recall
17:27:37 <cpressey_> note to self: go into the business of selling edible hats, for saving of face
17:29:15 <Ilari> Any computable sequence with known repeat is obiviously generatable with finite storage.
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17:32:14 <alise> God, hallu is so awesome in Vagrant.
17:32:35 <alise> ais523: does nethack ever generate impossible characters in hallu?
17:32:40 <alise> like an unused symbol?
17:32:52 <ais523> at least, it generates unused symbol/color combos
17:33:02 <ais523> I don't think it generates a comma, which is the only printable ASCII character that isn't used for anything
17:33:14 <alise> err, what about 0?
17:33:18 <alise> people use that for boulders
17:34:56 <cpressey_> Moria for the Amiga came with a graphical Moria font. A bit gratuitous, but hallucination while using it was pretty awesome.
17:35:06 <ais523> boulders are by default `
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17:35:12 <ais523> but people change them to 0 to make them easier to see
17:35:22 <alise> never seen iron balls :P
17:35:26 <ais523> (and iron balls are dark cyan compared to a boulder's grey, so you can't muddle them)
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17:35:50 <cpressey_> i didn't realize cyan came in a dark but i suppose it does
17:36:23 <ais523> all colors come in a dark, except black and arguably white
17:36:47 <alise> dark cyan, i.e. blue
17:36:56 <alise> (yeah, yeah, i know)
17:37:08 <alise> ais523: dark white is just gery
17:37:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you can get the iron ball by annoying your god in NetHack.
17:37:17 <cpressey_> i just think of it under another name i think. like aquamarine
17:37:19 <ais523> alise: cyan is not a light blue
17:37:19 <alise> gray > or >= #888, say
17:37:25 <alise> ais523: yes, i know, i was joking
17:37:28 <ais523> this is one of the things that irritates me disproportionately
17:37:35 <ais523> as in, I'm some sort of Cyan Rights Crusader
17:37:42 <ais523> cyan is not blue! cyan is not green!
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17:37:47 <alise> is it possible to have overgrown fingernails?
17:38:07 <ais523> I don't think so; fingers are a different shape
17:38:19 <ais523> the position for a nail which is ingrown for a toenail is correct for a fingernail
17:38:26 <Ilari> Hmm... Are there nonrepeating sequences that take o(log N) memory to generate, where N is number of terms to generate?
17:42:31 <Ilari> The string length seems to grow quadrically with counter, which in turn takes O(log N) bits to store, thus it would be O(log sqrt(N)) = O(log N) which is not o(log N).
17:44:04 <ais523> hmm, Microsoft are discussing buying Adobe?
17:44:16 <cpressey_> Ilari: I imagine kolakoski takes o(log N) but have no way of showing that.
17:44:20 <ais523> (potential worry: Flash and Silverlight with the same owner)
17:45:20 <ais523> we will have to compete against them with, umm, HTML5?
17:45:26 <alise> ais523: Then Intel will buy Microsoft. The entire software industry will be one gigantic matryoshka doll!
17:45:27 <Ilari> At least Keränen sequence actually takes theta(log N) memory to generate (like any self-expanding sequence)...
17:45:49 <ais523> alise: intel buying Microsoft is something that seems really implausible
17:45:57 <alise> "Buy me Microsoft." "Sir, the last time you gave an order like that, we ended up acquiring--" "Worked, didn't it?"
17:46:02 <ais523> actually, you could get more layers with McAfee buying Microsoft...
17:46:20 <alise> ais523: *that* is the least implausible thing ever though
17:46:30 <alise> the reverse is more likely, but that'd require Microsoft *acquiring Intel*
17:46:32 <alise> which is ludicrous
17:46:44 <ais523> then Apple can buy AMD
17:46:55 <alise> Microsoft are richer than Intel
17:46:57 <alise> I never quite realised
17:47:16 <alise> microsoft will never buy anybody big though
17:47:19 <alise> after that antitrust
17:47:23 <alise> what happened to the resolution of that?
17:47:25 <ais523> they might if they were unrelated
17:47:26 <alise> it's like they're back to normal
17:47:29 <alise> weren't they meant to be split up?
17:47:30 <ais523> Microsoft buying General Motors, or whatever
17:47:35 <ais523> alise: what happened was that Bush came into power
17:47:40 <alise> (of Microsoft buying GM)
17:47:41 <cpressey_> i just wanted to throw a different vertical into the mix
17:47:44 <ais523> and effectively gave them some sort of presidential pardon
17:47:49 <ais523> I think just by leaning on the courts
17:47:51 <alise> ais523: Ooh, how overtly political for you! Ahem. Anyway.
17:47:58 <alise> ("For", not "of".)
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17:48:12 <ais523> alise: hey, I'm overtly political, but only when people ask me a direct question about it
17:48:23 <alise> ais523: WHAT ARE YOUR OPINIONS ON POLITICS
17:48:28 <alise> [ais523 composes a five-page reply.]
17:48:41 <ais523> well, I approve of the current government, for the time being
17:49:03 <alise> so, the tories then
17:49:07 <ais523> I was terrified that the Conservatives would get into power, but the coalition doesn't seem to have done anything too bad yet
17:49:15 <alise> (If you say "also the Lib Dems", I will probably shoot you.)
17:49:20 <ais523> (I disagreed with much of the conservative manifesto, but they haven't tried to use those bits yet)
17:49:22 <alise> ais523: the conservatives are in power!
17:49:29 <alise> they're just being pulled slightly by the lib dems
17:49:56 <ais523> I agree with the huge cuts in public spending that are needed to try to solve some of the national debt
17:50:07 <ais523> but I'm upset they didn't raise taxes more at the same time
17:50:22 <ais523> alise: yes, I know; more than slightly, actually
17:50:25 <alise> I don't remember the last time just cutting spending actually solved anything.
17:50:35 <ais523> well, it helps to solve a lack of money
17:50:58 <alise> You'd think, wouldn't you? Economics is the only science based on something almost, but not entirely like logic.
17:51:03 <ais523> I would have voted Liberal at the last election, if I was in the correct country at the time and there hadn't been a mixup around arranging a proxy vote
17:51:11 <alise> that did not work without that correction.
17:51:41 <alise> "Of course you can for numbers like the Champernowne constant, for obvious reasons, but I've been thinking lately: is it even possible to prove normality (for any base) for numbers like e and pi? What about disproving it? It seems like such a concept that is unrelated to real mathematics (don't know how to phrase what I mean by that), and just seems impossible to prove. Any general thoughts about this?" --xkcd forum, displaying intense intelligence
17:51:51 <ais523> (although the seat I vote in is safe Labour, with Conservatives easily second)
17:51:55 <alise> I wonder why he thinks it's so "unreal".
17:51:55 <ais523> (so it really doesn't matter which way I vote)
17:52:00 <alise> Perhaps because you can't enumerate all of pi's digits?
17:52:20 <alise> ais523: the Tories actually ousted the Lib Dems in Oxford, strangely enoguh
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17:52:24 <alise> despite it being a safe lib dem seat
17:52:26 <ais523> I think he/she means it doesn't have any obvious practical applications
17:52:32 <alise> (I forget *which* Oxford)
17:52:57 <ais523> Universities are generally so strongly Labour, it's frightening
17:53:05 <ais523> I think all my friends here are Labour voters, or at least most of them
17:53:18 <alise> Oxford West and Abingdon
17:53:25 <ais523> (I tend to disagree with people who vote for parties without actually checking their manifestos...)
17:53:28 <alise> I think that's the one without the University but with everything else
17:53:31 <alise> oh, a minority of colleges are inside it
17:53:54 <alise> on they MP they replaced:
17:53:56 <alise> [[A Daily Mail article published on October 31, 2007 highlighted Harris' positions on social issues, castigating him as 'Dr. Death' for his "views on abortion, voluntary euthanasia, immigration and gay rights". The 'Dr. Death' term was subsequently used on numerous occasions, generally by Christian conservatives, in criticising Harris, including articles by Damian Thompson[20], Cristina Odone [21] and Nadine Dorries.]]
17:54:08 <alise> you can't get much of a better compliment than the Daily Mail calling you Dr. Death
17:54:21 <ais523> its only job is to reflect the opinions of uninformed people
17:54:22 <alise> i wasn't being sarcastic
17:54:29 <alise> ais523: Reflect? No -- create.
17:54:32 <ais523> in order that they buy it in order to confirm their own opinions
17:54:51 <ais523> alise: I think it wouldn't sell so well if it ran contrary to existing opinions on the matter
17:55:08 <ais523> e.g. if it said that, say, mobile phone masts were harmless, none of its readership would believe it
17:55:09 <alise> ais523: yes, the general "philosophy" -- as much as it exists -- is a reflection
17:55:16 <alise> but in the individual instances, it influencse
17:55:47 <alise> I mean, I'm sure someone who thinks "immigrants takin oor jobbs" and reads the Daily Mail gets an awful lot of their opinions from it.
17:56:40 <alise> close-minded -- drops the "d" after close, presumably using the "-ed" to replace it; discuss
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18:02:40 <cpressey_> Ilari: I bet the digits of a Chaitin's Omega require o(log n) storage. I could even venture o(n), from what I understand.
18:03:11 <Ilari> Actually, maybe there are sequences that require o(log N) memory to generate. In practicular if there are superpolynomial functions f(n) that can be computed with log(f(n)) memory.
18:05:46 <Ilari> And those functions are subexponential.
18:08:39 <cpressey_> "normality (for any base)" -- wtf does this mean?
18:09:26 <ais523> cpressey_: normality in a number is that each digit has an equal chance of occurring in the first n digits of its decimal expansion, in the limit for n
18:09:40 <alise> Devils! Artichokes! A burning feeling that you're where you should be!
18:09:46 <alise> All these have DIGITS in common.
18:10:12 <alise> Quickly: pick a random number between one and infinity.
18:10:56 <alise> Quickly: pick a random number between one and infinity.
18:11:04 <cpressey_> if i pick it it won't be random anymore
18:11:52 <cpressey_> but if you establish normality for one base, doesn't that imply normality in all bases?
18:12:15 <cpressey_> with a possible exception for unary
18:12:58 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderfuck ACTUAL ARTICLE
18:13:10 <alise> cpressey_: does it? why?
18:13:22 <alise> also, unary isn't a (positional) base
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18:13:58 <ais523> this was actually randomly selected via a program that could select any number from 1 to infinity
18:13:59 <Gregor> alise: In Soviet Russia, gender fuck YOUUUUUUU
18:14:04 <ais523> but not with an equal probability of each
18:14:08 <alise> ais523: there ex- right.
18:14:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ais523: BTW, number does not mean integer.
18:14:54 <ais523> alise: to be precise, I was generating cryptosecure nybbles (with /dev/random as an entropy source) using ssl rand, then counting the number before the first 0
18:15:44 <alise> ais523: in Perl, rand(1) X 1 -- X := < or X := <=, which is true?
18:15:49 <alise> what a confusing way of putting it
18:15:54 <alise> ais523: in Perl, can rand(1) ever == 1?
18:16:08 <ais523> it's from 0 up to but not including 1
18:16:39 <alise> ais523: hmm, then how does one write one that includes 1?
18:16:55 <alise> without relying on float stuff?
18:17:12 <ais523> my $x=2; $x = rand(2) while $x > 1;
18:17:28 <ais523> I think that gets the probabilities rigth
18:17:43 <ais523> without having to mess with float deltas or anything like that
18:17:51 <ais523> 0 to 1 inclusive isn't all that useful a range to randomize in, though
18:18:00 <ais523> normally, you're doing int(rand(n)) to get a random integer from 0 to n-1
18:19:02 <alise> ais523: it was scary at first
18:19:17 <ais523> but looks sensible now?
18:19:39 <Gregor> If you could "reinterpret_cast" in Perl, you could just reinterpret_cast 1.0 to an integer of the same size, add 1, and reinterpret_cast back, then pass that to rand() :P
18:20:37 <pikhq> Gregor: You can do much crazier casting than *that* in Perl.
18:21:09 <pikhq> Gregor: Presuming, of course, that you're fine with blessing values.
18:21:26 <Gregor> I do not tolerate blessing.
18:21:31 <ais523> Gregor: reinterpret_cast doesn't really make much sense in that context
18:21:42 <ais523> given that Perl scalars have a string and a numeric value which need not be correlated
18:22:22 <Gregor> ais523: Most things don't make sense in the context of Perl.
18:22:28 <Gregor> ais523: Perl sucks all logic and reason out of the universe.
18:22:34 <Gregor> ais523: It is The Beast.
18:23:30 <alise> -- says Gregor, who just talked about C++.
18:24:11 <Gregor> reinterpret_cast was easier to say than (*((long long *) &var))++
18:24:14 <alise> [[Breast fetishism (also known as mastofact, breast partialism, or mazophilia)[1] is a type of sexual fetish which involves a sexual interest in female breasts.] --Wikipedia
18:24:26 <alise> Vagina fetishism is a type of sexual fetish which involves ...
18:24:50 <ais523> $ perl -e '$! = 18; print $!,$/'
18:24:51 <ais523> Invalid cross-device link
18:25:10 <ais523> in this case, $! simultaneously has the values 18 and "Invalid cross-device link"
18:25:12 <cpressey_> < ais523> given that Perl scalars have a string and a numeric value which need not be correlated <-- i learn something new every day
18:25:29 <Gregor> cpressey_: New and horrifying.
18:25:30 <alise> ais523: hmm, how does one automatically set one based on the other?
18:25:37 <alise> or can only perl(1) do that?
18:25:55 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ perl -e '$! = (0..10); print $!,$/'
18:25:55 <alise> Operation not permitted
18:26:02 <alise> IT IS NOT PERMITTED TO LOOK AT THE FIRST TEN ERROR MESSAGES
18:26:49 <ais523> try perl -e '($! = $_), print $! for (0..10)'
18:26:53 <ais523> you can't assign an array to a scalar
18:27:12 <Gregor> Perl: It is the worst.
18:27:40 <Gregor> `run perl -e 'print "I'\''m evil!";'
18:28:03 <ais523> $ perl -e 'use Scalar::Util qw/dualvar/; $a = dualvar 1,"b"; print $a+0; print $a.""; print "\n"'
18:28:32 * ais523 is not entirely certain what people would use dualvar /for/, but Scalar::Util is a good place for it
18:29:19 <cpressey_> i only wish both those values could be references
18:29:35 <ais523> cpressey_: well, you can have a reference to a scalar with such a value
18:29:42 <ais523> what you're saying doesn't really make sense, though
18:29:48 <ais523> it's just, you have a scalar with a string value and a numeric value
18:29:55 <ais523> and the two don't resemble each other, like they generally do
18:30:51 <ais523> I don't really see how the string value of a scalar could be, you know, not a string
18:31:21 <alise> ais523: how can you automatically set the string version based on the number -- or can you?
18:31:48 <ais523> addition just gives you a number
18:32:21 <Gregor> `echo But now I'm fast again.
18:32:29 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ perl -e 'use Scalar::Util qw/dualvar/; $a=dualvar 1,2; print $a+1; print $a.""; print $/'
18:32:37 <alise> Behold! The string value of the number is an integer.
18:32:57 <ais523> the string value is "2"
18:32:59 <Gregor> alise: I'm betting somewhere within dualvar it casted that to a string.
18:33:14 <ais523> well, 2 has a numeric value 2, and a string value "2"
18:33:40 <ais523> so it just took the string value from 2
18:33:58 <ais523> hmm... is "true but False" working in Rakudo yet?
18:34:01 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ perl -e 'use Scalar::Util qw/dualvar/; $a=dualvar "a",1; print $a+1; print $a.""; print $/'
18:34:02 <cpressey_> but what if you do $a=dualvar 1,$b where $b=dualvar 1,"x"
18:34:18 <ais523> cpressey_: it'd just take the string part of $b
18:34:20 <alise> cpressey_: it kills your only son
18:34:33 <alise> if you have more than one son, it kills the others so the remaining one is your only son, then kills that
18:34:34 * Sgeo assassinates Perl
18:34:35 <ais523> alise: the numeric value of "a" is 0
18:34:40 <alise> if you don't have a son, it makes you give birth to one
18:34:52 <ais523> really, this is all quite logical
18:34:59 <cpressey_> the numeric value of EVERYTHING is 0
18:35:09 <Sgeo> cpressey, itym "EVERYTHING"
18:35:12 <ais523> unless it happens to look like a number
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18:35:35 <ais523> Sgeo: you don't have to quote strings in Perl, if it's unambiguous without
18:35:40 <ais523> (although use strict; checks for that sort of thing)
18:35:48 <ais523> impomatic: did you ever get that program working?
18:36:07 <Sgeo> You need quotes around "STDIN" but not EVERYTHING then?
18:36:25 <Sgeo> Depends on context?
18:36:27 <ais523> Sgeo: no, because there's no context where you can validly have either a string, or the name of a filehandle
18:36:56 <impomatic> ais523: JclRobots? Yes, the new version is working, but only on the latest beta release of Tcl. 8.5.9 didn't support something it needed
18:37:00 <alise> Sgeo: stop saying bibble!
18:37:03 -!- augur has joined.
18:37:04 <alise> It's like Tcl but in JAVA
18:37:10 <ais523> e.g. print STDIN "Hello, world!" is different from print STDIN, "Hello, world!" which is different from print *STDIN, "Hello, world!"
18:37:17 <ais523> impomatic: I meant the BF Joust program
18:37:37 <ais523> Sgeo: the set of all variables named something followed by STDIN, or else the concept of the variable name STDIN itself
18:37:55 <impomatic> Oh right :-) Yes, it was only a simple example for the wiki, not even competitive.
18:37:58 <ais523> because there isn't actually a sigil for filehandles, you need to use that notation to pass them to functions instead
18:38:09 <ais523> even some simple programs can be competitive
18:38:28 <Sgeo> alise, why should I stop saying bibble?
18:38:40 <alise> it makes you sound like you're a few months old.
18:38:55 <Sgeo> Besides the fact that I'm not an image editor
18:39:11 <Sgeo> http://bibblelabs.com/
18:39:19 <ais523> wow, what a coincidence! I'm not an image editor either
18:41:04 <Sgeo> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bibble
18:41:14 <Sgeo> WTF? For the record, I never used it to mean any of those things
18:41:38 <alise> You definitely meant it as #2.
18:42:44 <ais523> amusing ontopic Wikipedia vandalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck&diff=389517231&oldid=389497650
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18:43:45 <ais523> although whatever program generated that clearly wasn't designed for characters significantly past 255 in Unicode
18:44:49 <alise> wow, slow-loading page
18:44:53 <alise> Sgeo: presumably the article has unicode in it
18:45:20 <ais523> alise: it's quite a large page...
18:45:41 <Sgeo> ^^that particular random barely-a-reference brought to you by the Cartoon Guide to Statistics
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18:51:49 <Gregor> ais523: I assume the result of that program was the entire page?
18:51:53 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:52:04 <ais523> Gregor: so do I, I haven't tried to run it
18:52:09 <pikhq> Hey, look. A Nobel Peace Prize winner that has *actually done something*!
18:52:21 <pikhq> Liú Xiǎobō, human rights activist in the PRC. Currently in jail.
18:52:27 <pikhq> The PRC is currently very pissed.
18:52:49 <Gregor> The PRC is always pissed.
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18:53:21 <pikhq> Yes, but not usually to the point of blacking out all foreign news and forbidding all discussion of the Nobel Prize in domestic news.
18:54:05 <Gregor> pikhq: Mmmm, they're all about censorship though.
18:54:12 <Gregor> pikhq: So that's not wildly beyond their usual douchebaggery.
18:54:40 <pikhq> Gregor: They're also claiming that this award goes against Nobel principles.
18:55:33 <pikhq> And being very very pissy to the Norwegian ambassador.
18:55:35 <Gregor> pikhq: Still very typical douchebaggery.
18:57:59 <pikhq> They're also arresting university students for celebrating the first Chinese winner of the Nobel Prize.
18:59:41 <Gregor> The PRC: They are douchebags. This we know.
18:59:47 <Gregor> They are capable of ANY level of douchebaggery.
18:59:55 <Gregor> It is a government that severely needs to be wiped from the globe.
19:00:18 <pikhq> Though there are countries that need it worse.
19:00:20 <Gregor> It is the most regressive government outside of the middle east and sub-Saharan Africa.
19:00:42 <Gregor> OK, that's true ... but North Korea is so TYPICALLY evil :P
19:01:01 <pikhq> North Korea is just the most regressive government. :)
19:01:30 <pikhq> ... And appears to run their government based on Bond villians.
19:02:05 <cpressey_> alise: it's pretty easy to show that if a number is normal in base n, it is also normal in base n^2 and in base n/2 (for even n obv)
19:02:50 <alise> <ais523> Gregor: so do I, I haven't tried to run it ;; in case it deletes all your files? :-P
19:03:11 <alise> <Gregor> It is the most regressive government outside of the middle east and sub-Saharan Africa. ;; yeah, North Korea, pikhq got there first :P
19:03:13 <Gregor> pikhq: I think what bothers me most about China is that you can get enough of an impression of how normal life is in China to see that people are blinded and actively lied to by their government, but in North Korea is't just a giant mystery.
19:03:40 <Gregor> I mean, you KNOW they are, but really we have no idea. It's friggin' North Korea.
19:03:46 <alise> North Koreans want change but would never, ever ask for it.
19:03:54 <alise> They sort of have this food problem to deal with first.
19:04:03 <alise> Also, the not-getting-killed-by-voting thing.
19:04:15 <alise> Not getting killed by spoiling your ballot.
19:05:36 <pikhq> Gregor: You can get *an* idea of what it's like in North Korea. Courtesy of defectors.
19:06:00 <pikhq> Imperfect, though.
19:06:18 <pikhq> Whereas the PRC... They let everyone know about *all* the crazy!
19:07:41 <Gregor> They just have too many people and too much vitality to do anything about it.
19:07:58 <alise> Briggard: thou pitst'k on desgrute.
19:08:02 <pikhq> Yup, Palin is running in 2012.
19:08:53 <pikhq> If she wins, I'm asking for refugee status.
19:10:31 <cpressey_> next step: ayn rand's profile on a coin
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19:12:16 <pikhq> cpressey_: If that happens I think we should eradicate the US.
19:12:30 <pikhq> Turn Canada into a continent.
19:15:45 <alise> this room has ten walls and i am the third
19:17:45 <pikhq> Oh, and Obama is calling for the PRC to release Liú Xiǎobō.
19:20:33 <pikhq> Oh, that's wonderful. The prize is being officially termed "blasphemy".
19:21:01 <pikhq> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
19:21:40 <alise> "two years' deprivation of political rights"
19:21:55 <alise> Ahh, I love how everybody uses "rights" to mean "rights that we have decided are privileges".
19:22:06 <pikhq> Ain't it "wonderful"?
19:25:55 <cpressey_> "A given infinite sequence is either normal or not normal, whereas a real number, having a different base-b expansion for each integer b >= 2, may be normal in one base but not in another (Cassels 1959 and Schmidt 1960)." --WP
19:27:41 <pikhq> http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/137/137517/13751746/jpg/active/320x.jpg
19:28:40 <pikhq> It's like he doesn't even realise that the Norwegian government has no influence on the Norwegian Nobel Committee.
19:29:02 <pikhq> Oh, except that the members are appointed by Norwegian Parliament.
19:30:24 <alise> if Taiwan wanted to crush China and get their independence universally recognised
19:30:30 <alise> they just have to build a billion sweatshops!
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19:34:27 <pikhq> <evilotto> counting utf-8 characters is easy - just take the byte count, then subtract the number of bytes in the range 128-192.
19:34:41 <pikhq> That... Actually works on well-formed UTF-8.
19:35:23 <alise> pikhq: But it's quicker to skip over characters.
19:35:35 <alise> As Colin Percival did.
19:35:38 <cpressey_> you have to traverse the string anyway, so yes
19:35:39 <alise> (After Kragen Sitaker.)
19:35:45 <pikhq> Oh, that does fuck up one thing...
19:35:55 <pikhq> Character composition.
19:36:33 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: they need to offer me a tardis mug
19:36:41 <cpressey_> ok... uk people are *not* going to get that
19:37:38 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: do you get PBS on your TV?
19:37:49 <cpressey_> if not, you can only imagine the mug to which I refer
19:38:19 <cpressey_> PBS is the only source of non-American TV for the US, afaict
19:38:25 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It was in the past (classic Who)
19:38:38 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The new one got aired on Sci-Fi, and then moved to BBCA.
19:38:55 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It was never SyFy when they had Doctor Who.
19:39:10 <alise> And it's pronounced "siffie".
19:39:13 <alise> I swear to god it is.
19:39:55 <alise> pikhq: Does BBC America air the *UK* BBC news?
19:39:58 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey_, tell us of this mug from the far distant land of America.
19:40:08 <alise> Sure, it's partly irrelevant... but oh so comforting!
19:40:20 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: YOU PUT COFFEE IN IT AND THE TARDIS DECAL WOULD FADE TO INVISIBLE
19:40:30 <alise> <pikhq> Character composition. ;; you mean like combining umlaut and shit?
19:40:35 <cpressey_> coffee, not tea, because this is AMERICA.
19:40:39 <alise> well obviously it counts codepoints not graphemes
19:40:44 <alise> because counting the latter is LOLIMPOSSIBLE
19:40:58 <alise> cpressey_: I WANT IT
19:41:12 <cpressey_> now i regret not giving them money
19:41:24 <cpressey_> pbs has turned into a shopping channel for videos now, though
19:42:02 <alise> on Microsoft buying Adobe: "Merging two huge globs that each can extract rent on their various properties into a single similar vast glob. What could possibly go wrong..." "The combined corporate mass would exceed the Tolman–Oppenheimer–Volkoff limit and they would collapse into a black hole?"
19:42:06 <pikhq> alise: They do the BBC World newscast every weekday in the evening.
19:42:11 <alise> pikhq: INSUFFICIENT
19:42:26 <alise> pikhq: I want the ten o' clock news as it airs on BBC 1!
19:43:02 <pikhq> alise: Y'know what I'd love? The ability to pay the BBC license fee and stream BBC over the Internet. While in the US.
19:43:18 <alise> pikhq: It's more than you probably think it is.
19:43:31 <alise> £145.50 for colour, £49 for black and white.
19:43:35 <alise> (Yes, you can pay for just black and white.)
19:44:13 <alise> pikhq: $19.23/month, paid annually. Actually that's surprisingly cheap...
19:44:24 <alise> pikhq: Also, iPlayer quality isn't that good, unfortunately.
19:44:38 <alise> And downloading it requires a separate program that pretends to be an iPhone.
19:44:53 <alise> pikhq: Also shows disappear after something like seven days.
19:45:29 <alise> pikhq: You also can't stream the channels, just the news and stuff.
19:45:33 <pikhq> alise: No, I mean actually stream it. Properly.
19:45:35 <alise> But yeah, if it existed, I'd approve.
19:45:50 <pikhq> Also, dammit, I want multicast on the public Internet.
19:46:01 <alise> pikhq: For news itself, though, I presume you know about http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/.
19:46:04 <pikhq> Fuck the cable infrastructure, multicast streaming, bitch.
19:46:12 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, it's in my RSS reader.
19:46:13 <alise> pikhq: Which is, incidentally, the world's *only* well-designed news website.
19:46:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They're in talks.
19:46:39 <pikhq> I suspect this will make Flash suck more.
19:46:57 <alise> pikhq: Well, certainly on Linux/OS X.
19:47:09 <alise> On Windows ... it's actually already acceptable on Windows, or, well, moreso than other OSes.
19:47:13 <alise> So that doesn't help.
19:47:15 <cpressey_> It's somewhat humbling that almost all real numbers are uncomputable.
19:47:18 <alise> Now if Apple bought it up...
19:47:26 <alise> ...they'd drop support for all non-OS X OSes (see: Logic Pro)
19:47:29 <pikhq> alise: Well, there's one dev for Flash Linux.
19:47:31 <alise> But it would get a lot better on OS X.
19:47:35 <pikhq> Precisely one dev.
19:47:41 <alise> pikhq: I've seen his blog. He's not very smrt.
19:47:53 <cpressey_> In other news, Microsoft is in talks to acquire the computable reals.
19:47:58 <alise> Or was that the OS X guy?
19:48:01 <alise> No, the Linux guy.
19:48:04 <pikhq> And from what I gather, you'd need an actual dev *team* to get Flash to not suck.
19:48:25 <alise> http://blogs.adobe.com/penguinswf/ Here's the blog.
19:48:32 <alise> Hmm, it seems to have reverted to default formatting of some description.
19:49:02 <alise> Meanwhile, the first result for "penguin.swf" on Google: http://home.kabelfoon.nl/~hopha/penguin.swf
19:49:33 <pikhq> I wonder if Flash sucks less *running in a Windows VM*.
19:50:00 <Gregor> alise: Actually, Flash sucks in a lot of ways on Windows.
19:50:17 <alise> Gregor: Said like someone who's never used Flash on OS X or Linux.
19:50:31 <pikhq> Gregor: Does Youtube peg a CPU?
19:50:34 <Gregor> I have and frequently do use Flash on both.
19:50:36 <cpressey_> "Coworker Tinic has just published..."
19:50:42 <alise> Flash is especially bad on 64-bit Linux, because *they dropped 64-bit support right after a pre-release that was later found to have serious security flaws*.
19:50:44 <Gregor> I've also used the Flash-based soundmanager2 on Windows and Linux.
19:50:48 <alise> They're apparently going to add it back in.
19:50:49 <Gregor> On Windows, timing is a horrible joke.
19:50:56 <alise> You get to use nspluginwrapper!
19:51:08 <alise> Hint: nspluginwrapper *crashes for no reason, constantly*.
19:51:18 <alise> Every time I'm listening to something using YouTube, I never close a tab.
19:51:24 <alise> nspluginwrapper doesn't like it when I close tabs.
19:51:49 <Gregor> Yes yes, alise angry, alise eat babies.
19:51:58 <Gregor> Anyway, Microsoft has competition for Flash, if you don't recall.
19:51:58 <alise> No, nspluginwrapper angry :P
19:52:04 <Gregor> It's called Silverlight and nobody cares.
19:52:08 <cpressey_> nspluginwrapper confused and hurt.
19:52:11 <Gregor> But if they could squash Flash, who knows.
19:52:25 <alise> Now I am feeling sorry for nspluginwrapper
19:52:31 <alise> DAMN YOU CPRESSEY_! DAAMN YOUUUUU--
19:52:44 <Gregor> cpressey_: Damn you and damn your underscore to hell!
19:53:38 <cpressey_> i would nick myself back to normal but this cpressey freak is still logged in
19:54:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I AM NATURALLY LIGHTER THAN AIR
19:54:11 <alise> cpressey_: /ns ghost cpressey password
19:54:19 <alise> And suddenly the cpressey am disappearate, like ghost.
19:54:49 <Gregor> How do people not know about /nickserv ghost ...
19:55:07 <alise> Gregor: Bad parenting.
19:56:40 -!- cpressey has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:56:44 <Gregor> cpressey_: Darn, you've changed your password since accidentally leaking it to #esoteric on 2010-08-10 :P
19:56:57 <alise> Gregor: I seem to recall he was joking.
19:57:00 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey.
19:57:15 <alise> Wow, I was -- what was I going...?
19:57:16 <Gregor> alise: Oh, I just grepped the logs for cpressey.*identify :P
19:57:45 <alise> well why would he write identify rather than like
19:57:49 <alise> ns identify parr0t
19:57:52 <pikhq> IT PLAYS VIDEO BETTER INSIDE OF A WINDOWS FUCKING VM.
19:57:54 <cpressey> hey, that means i could kill mz*bot removely too
19:58:01 <Gregor> alise: Thought he was in a nickserv query window?
19:58:05 <alise> pikhq: did you try? XD
19:58:07 <pikhq> Aside from one detail: the Win2k network stack sucks.
19:58:14 <alise> Gregor: Who makes nickserv query windows?
19:58:19 <alise> pikhq: it's limited
19:58:22 <alise> 10 concurrent connections or sth
19:58:26 <alise> there's a patch -- or --
19:58:46 <pikhq> alise: That's crazy.
19:58:48 <Gregor> alise: The real question is who would subject themselves to Pidgin for IRC.
19:59:10 <cpressey> Gregor: people who are subjected to it anyway, that's who
19:59:22 <alise> "Windows 2000 Professional does have a limit of 10 concurrent inbound
19:59:22 <alise> connections, as is stated in the following Microsoft knowledge base
19:59:30 <alise> pikhq: Only inbound.
19:59:41 <alise> I can only find patchse for XP.
19:59:45 <pikhq> It uses less CPU *and memory* to have a full Virtual Box VM running for Flash.
20:00:09 <alise> pikhq: Now set up a VNC server on that Windows box, target it at a Flash window, and integrate it into a browser plugin that:
20:00:13 <alise> (1) Contacts the Windows VM
20:00:17 <alise> (2) Tells it to load the Flash file
20:00:25 <alise> (3) Tells it to focus on it with VNC
20:00:30 <alise> (4) Receives the video stream
20:00:34 <pikhq> So fucking perverse.
20:00:37 <alise> (5) Displays it in the area where the Flash should be
20:00:42 <alise> (6) Relays clicks and typing.
20:06:41 -!- impomatic has left (?).
20:11:19 <cpressey> iow, rewrite nspluginwrapper into winbrowsepluginwrapper
20:11:57 <pikhq> alise: Better still. Use RDP for the display.
20:12:15 <alise> pikhq: Sure thing, get on it.
20:16:51 <alise> Author of the book, "The Fag Physics"
20:19:06 * pikhq wonders what the best version of Windows to run in a VM is
20:19:41 <pikhq> alise: For those programs that'll work on 95? ... Probably, actually.
20:20:10 <alise> It Runs In DOSBox!(TM)
20:24:25 <alise> pikhq: If you run into problems I should be able to help. After all, I used it in a VM for several days as my only OS...
20:24:29 <pikhq> Aaaaw. They no longer support Flash on 95.
20:24:38 <alise> pikhq: Meh, oldversion.com
20:25:01 <alise> Macromedia Flash Player 9 (1.3 MB)
20:25:05 <alise> Although I don't know if YT supports 9.
20:25:14 <alise> pikhq: Whatever, just use the latest version that works.
20:25:26 <alise> pikhq: As for the browser, Seamonkey is probably your best bet.
20:25:33 <pikhq> Flash 9 worked on 98...
20:25:46 <alise> I keep forgetting Opera exists.
20:25:52 <alise> pikhq: If it works in 98 it'll probably work in 95.
20:25:56 <alise> Find a way to get around the OS check, proceed onwards.
20:26:08 <cpressey> "There are, of course, more possible ABCs for numbers, and this would be a poor hierarchy if it precluded the possibility of adding those. You can add MyFoo between Complex and Real with..."
20:26:44 <cpressey> trying to think of the right emoticon for how that makes me feel
20:27:00 <alise> pikhq: Things that make me RAGE: Adobe refusing to give me a download page for Flash because "Chrome has it built-in!".
20:27:10 <alise> I want a fucking download page! Fuck you, Adobe! You don't know what the fuck I want!
20:30:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Python manual. "Abstract base classes for numbers."
20:30:57 <Phantom_Hoover> This is what happens when SE people try to do mathematics.
20:30:58 <cpressey> http://docs.python.org/library/numbers.html
20:31:14 <cpressey> Python is perfectionist about its crap.
20:31:48 <cpressey> C++ and Python people seem to have the same weird terminology there
20:32:05 <cpressey> Are there any non-Base abstract classes?
20:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Do explain what an abstract class is and what Base means.
20:32:59 <cpressey> An abstract class is one that doesn't... wait, there are no abstract classes as such in Python.
20:33:25 <cpressey> This is what happens when SE people try to do SE.
20:34:15 * Phantom_Hoover tries to think what class sensibly fits between C and R.
20:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> It's kind of stupid to think of it as a tower in the first place, but whatever.
20:34:48 <cpressey> "Interesting". They're a bit more involved than real numbers, but it would be an exaggeration to call them "complex".
20:35:38 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: especially in a language which prides itself on duck typing
20:35:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Reals are a 1-dimensional continuum, complexes a 2D one.
20:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Logically, the intermediate sets would all be fractal continua.
20:36:28 <cpressey> I'm sure that's exactly what the manual author had in mind.
20:37:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That's actually what I thought, ha.
20:37:06 <cpressey> In fact 'MyFoo' stands for "my fractally-organized ordinals"
20:37:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it could be helpful if you're computing things to do with infinite-coin Hanoi.
20:37:11 <alise> After your first line.
20:38:03 * alise tries to declip a song with Audacity
20:38:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Since the legal moves for n-coin Hanoi approach Sierpinski's triangle as n grows.
20:38:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ...awesome.
20:38:51 <alise> How can a number approach a fractal?
20:39:04 <alise> Or do you mean, rendering the legal moves in some way?
20:40:05 <Phantom_Hoover> So I assume you could use a fractal continuum to simulate moves in n-coin Hanoi as movements through the Sierpinski triangle.
20:41:59 <cpressey> not enough Lithuanian peanut-butter-based shaving crme in your diet.
20:44:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, how do you uniquely represent a point on the Sierpinski gasket.
20:44:38 <cpressey> "Note however, that since computers store floating-point numbers as approximations it is usually unwise to use them as dictionary keys."
20:44:50 <cpressey> They "store them as approximations".
20:45:45 <Sgeo> Would "are approximations to what you probably wanted to store" make more sense?
20:46:00 <cpressey> Sgeo: Yes. It would be a good start.
20:46:12 <alise> <cpressey> not enough Lithuanian peanut-butter-based shaving crme in your diet.
20:46:22 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, how do you uniquely represent a point on the Sierpinski gasket. ;; a complex number
20:46:27 <alise> or, more conveniently, R^2
20:46:33 <alise> say the whole fractal is from (0,0) to (1,1)
20:46:39 <alise> then pick a point in-between
20:46:43 <alise> to pick further, go smaller
20:47:06 <alise> of course if you don't have reals, rationals should suffice at a pinch.
20:47:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: or, something to do with Pascal's triangle for something more "exact" on a computer i guess
20:47:49 <cpressey> or you could represent it using Pascal's triangle mod 2
20:47:49 <alise> The pattern obtained by coloring only the odd numbers in Pascal's triangle closely resembles the fractal called the Sierpinski triangle. This resemblance becomes more and more accurate as more rows are considered; in the limit, as the number of rows approaches infinity, the resulting pattern is the Sierpinski triangle, assuming a fixed perimeter.[6] More generally, numbers could be colored differently according to whether or not they are multiples of 3, 4, e
20:47:49 <alise> tc.; this results in other similar patterns.
20:48:27 <cpressey> or you can generate it with a CA
20:48:28 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's just a consequence of addition mod 2 being the same as XOR.
20:48:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's still relevant! maybe.
20:49:07 <Gregor> I too shall join in this argument!
20:49:37 <cpressey> or you can mail-order Siepinski gaskets from Gregor's Olde Infinite Objects Shoppe.
20:49:59 <Gregor> Rolls right off the tongue
20:50:25 <cheater99> cpressey: how do you generate a pascal's triangle with a california?
20:50:43 <alise> cpressey: CA won't produce the infinitely detailed one though
20:50:50 <pikhq> alise: Okay, Flash 9 actually works on Windows 95 without any work.
20:50:54 <alise> pascal's triangle is only sierpinski considering infinite rows
20:50:57 <cpressey> alise: well, neither will Pascal's triangle then?
20:50:58 <cheater99> cpressey: are you being childish today as well
20:51:01 <alise> does it do youtube?
20:51:11 <alise> cpressey: well that's why i implied using unspecified trickery to use it
20:51:16 <alise> to identify points
20:51:20 <pikhq> alise: I've not installed it yet; waiting on this '95 torrent.
20:51:45 <alise> pikhq: Link me up, dood.
20:51:52 <alise> I had 95 a while back but not now.
20:52:00 <alise> Or I could find it myself :P
20:52:06 <cpressey> alise: I dunno. The CA/PT triangle is infinite from the bottom up, the Hanoi-coins one is infinite from the top down...
20:52:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You can with MATHEMATICS
20:52:34 <alise> Well, let's see, S^(log 3/log 2) is a function from (log 3/log 2) -> S, in set theory.
20:52:45 <alise> I know of the sets 1 and 2, but what the fuck does log do to a set?
20:52:46 <pikhq> alise: http://www.torrentz.com/faa86c86e912728e0ede9463c0227a5c0c656c1a
20:53:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Clearly (log 3/log 2) has dimension (log 3/log 2) but not that cardinality.
20:53:08 <alise> So, figure out what set has that dimension, and you're done.
20:53:19 <cpressey> this is similar to the fractions of a bit stuff
20:54:10 <cpressey> setdefault: awesome dict method with ultracrap name.
20:54:28 <alise> cpressey: I always forget what setdefault does because it has a shitty name. What does it do again?
20:54:58 <cpressey> if k not in d then d[k] = v; return d[k]
20:55:48 <cpressey> if there's something there, return it. if not, insert this and return it.
20:56:10 <alise> also, ; works fine there
20:56:27 <alise> cpressey: woot, that shortens vagrant
20:56:36 <alise> if v not in w:w[v]=choice(W)
20:56:36 <alise> q=w[v];s.addch(B-Y,A-X,r(32,126)if U and 0==r(0,2)and q-32 else q)
20:56:54 <cpressey> useful for like: self.defined_in.setdefault(groupname, set()).add(filename)
20:57:48 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
20:57:49 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/vagrant$ wc -c vagrant.py
20:57:55 <cheater99> how do you get a set of fractional dimension
20:57:58 <alise> (note: inflated file size due to verbose debugging AI code)
20:58:08 <cpressey> i wonder what wars took place in those two years
20:58:23 <alise> on another topic, Lebesgue measure is so cool
20:58:44 <olsner> Sgeo: any response from FIS yet?
20:59:00 <alise> mixed up which one is the fractal one >__>
20:59:07 <alise> olsner: FIS -- the bancstar people?
20:59:17 <alise> "For example, the Cantor set (a zero-dimensional topological space) is a union of two copies of itself, each copy shrunk by a factor 1/3; this fact can be used to prove that its Hausdorff dimension is ln2 / ln3"
20:59:18 <olsner> alise: yes... well, potentially at least
20:59:28 <alise> "The Sierpinski triangle is a union of three copies of itself, each copy shrunk by a factor of 1/2; this yields a Hausdorff dimension of ln3 / ln2"
20:59:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: then, a (ln3/ln2)-ple of S-es is a function from the Sierpinski set to S.
21:00:09 <alise> *from a member of the Sierpinski set
21:00:15 <pikhq> Whoa. Win95 actually supports Unicode. *Barely*.
21:00:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought Hausdorff dimension didn't work like that...
21:00:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: YOU DON'T WORK LIKE THAT
21:00:48 <olsner> pikhq: don't you have to install some unicode support patch from ms first?
21:01:04 <alise> pikhq: I hope that Win95 is old enough to not be OSR2.5.
21:01:19 <pikhq> alise: It's the release version.
21:01:25 <alise> pikhq: OSR2.5 replaced Windows Explorer with Internet "I Can't Believe It's Not Windows Explorer" Explorer.
21:01:34 <alise> Thus dramatically steepening the decline of Windows.
21:01:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I know that!
21:01:41 <pikhq> olsner: Installing unicows.dll made it actually support Unicode as well as NT versions.
21:01:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But you have to cheat somehow.
21:01:47 <alise> So cheat like this!
21:01:53 <olsner> if windows explorer == internet explorer, then certainly windows == internet!
21:02:23 <pikhq> alise: This one doesn't have IE at all.
21:02:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, but I'm trying to work out what R^(log 3/log 2) is /so that I can identify a point on the Sierpinski set uniquely*.
21:02:32 <cpressey> olsner: you have COM and .NET, so... YES
21:02:54 <alise> The best way to package .NET applications inside COM executable files!
21:02:55 <pikhq> Gregor: UNICOde for Windows Systems
21:03:12 <Gregor> `addquote <olsner> if windows explorer == internet explorer, then certainly windows == internet!
21:03:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: R^(log 3/log 2) is a function from a set with cardinality log 3/log 2 to the raels!
21:03:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF UNGRATEFUL BÂTARD
21:03:43 <olsner> oh my, I'm having quotes added
21:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, but how does one have a set with non-integral cardinality (indeed, non-natural cardinality).
21:03:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: CLEVERLY
21:03:54 <HackEgo> 237|<olsner> if windows explorer == internet explorer, then certainly windows == internet!
21:04:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Clearly ∈ should result in a real, representing how-much-in the value is.
21:04:28 <Sgeo> olsner, I haven't emailed them yet
21:05:05 <alise> {1[1/2], 2[1/2]} is a set with cardinality 1, and both 1 ∈ S and 2 ∈ S = 1/2.
21:05:23 <alise> {1[3]} = {1,1,1}, of course.
21:05:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea if it makes sense, but it is awesome nontheless.
21:06:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: {{}[Ω]}, where Ω = Chaitin's constant.
21:07:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Now, allow me to introduce you to NEGATIVE CARDINALITIES!" gargled the mad scientist, before vomiting profusely.
21:07:21 <alise> ^ Now a Lyttle Lytton entry!
21:07:26 <pikhq> Hmm. I've got an old game here that'd be nice to play. Maybe it'll run nicely in Win95.
21:07:34 <cpressey> those are just all those sets pointing in the other direction
21:07:59 <cpressey> pikhq: thank you for saying "I've got" and not just "I've"
21:08:22 <pikhq> cpressey: Odd as it is, it *is* idiomatic in General American.
21:08:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: because it bugs me.
21:08:43 <alise> Generalised Americanism
21:08:49 <alise> pikhq: Everything runs nicely in Win95 :P
21:08:57 <Gregor> I've a bone to pick with anybody who argues that "I've got" is incorrect.
21:08:58 <alise> Are you gonna do it in VirtualBox or QEMU or what?
21:09:00 <cpressey> pikhq: I only ever hear it on the internet, somehow.
21:09:31 <cpressey> Gregor: it makes you sound like you should be telling me about how a storm's a-comin', as you can feel it in your knees.
21:10:13 <pikhq> alise: Virtaul Box.
21:10:32 <alise> Virtaul is an awesome word; we must now define it.
21:10:39 <pikhq> The Chinese knockoff. :D
21:10:41 <Gregor> cpressey: Y'all ain't one to be mockin' American colloquialism.
21:10:58 <Gregor> cpressey: Also, I feel it in my ANKLES.
21:11:02 <Gregor> cpressey: Get it right.
21:11:26 <Gregor> cpressey: ALSO, it doesn't matter what Mr. Ivory Tower thinks it sounds like, because English is defined by its speakers, and its speakers overwhelmingly say "i've got"
21:11:40 <alise> "I feels it in my ANKLES, I tells ya! Mah ANKLES! Geddit RIGHT, for chrissakes, man!"
21:11:47 <alise> <Gregor> cpressey: ALSO, it doesn't matter what Mr. Ivory Tower thinks it sounds like, because English is defined by its speakers, and its speakers overwhelmingly say "i've got"
21:11:53 <alise> Most pointless pushing of descriptivism ever?
21:12:16 <Gregor> I WILL PUSH MY DESCRIPTIVIST AGENDA 'TIL THE END OF TIM
21:12:19 <alise> pikhq: I shall join you, O 95 one.
21:12:21 <Gregor> That was a typo, but I'm leaving it.
21:12:32 <alise> Gregor: NO IT WASN'T IT'S LINGUISTIC INNOVATION
21:12:45 <alise> pikhq: I will now scare you: When Windows 95 was released, I was 48 hours old.
21:12:55 <Gregor> alise: "Every typo is linguistic innovation" is not descriptivism.
21:13:03 <alise> Gregor: Neither are jokes!
21:13:38 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, wait, I say "I've" rather than "I've got" quite frequently.
21:14:42 <alise> pikhq: Dammit, feel old!
21:14:45 <Gregor> From now on I'm using "I've have"
21:14:46 * pikhq uses ddrescue on this horribly beaten up Sim City 3000 disc
21:15:02 <alise> pikhq: HOW OLD ARE YOU AGAIN I'VE FORGOTTEN
21:15:20 <Gregor> alise: Younger than me, older than you X-P
21:15:23 <alise> pikhq: HOLY FUCKING SHIT SGEO IS ONE YEAR OLDER THAN YOU
21:15:27 <alise> HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE
21:15:31 <pikhq> alise: AND WINDOWS 95 WAS NOT THE FIRST VERSION THAT I USED
21:15:40 <Gregor> OK, let's rank everyone by age:
21:16:00 <Gregor> alise < pikhq < Sgeo < Gregor < ais < cpressey
21:16:11 <alise> Gregor: Eh? How old are you?
21:16:18 <Gregor> alise: Like you said, 45.
21:16:22 <Gregor> But ais is at LEAST 60.
21:16:27 <Gregor> And cpressey is older than time itself.
21:16:29 <alise> Gregor: No butrly :P
21:16:37 <pikhq> And oerjan is older than cpressey.
21:16:44 <alise> "Alex Smith was born on 15 April 1987"
21:16:54 <alise> So he's, like, 22-23
21:17:02 <Gregor> I am the age that a person is if he's a third year graduate student who did all schooling by the canonical years.
21:17:05 <alise> I distinctly recall 24.
21:17:07 <Gregor> Oh shoot, ais is younger than me :P
21:17:16 <alise> And you climb further up the ranks of senility.
21:17:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise < pikhq < Sgeo < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan
21:17:37 <alise> asiekierka comes before me
21:18:02 <Gregor> Vorpal must be roughly in the Sgeo-to-Gregor range, I'd guess.
21:18:09 <alise> there was another guy my age iirc
21:18:20 <alise> Gregor: vorpal turned 20 a little bit ago iirc
21:18:31 <alise> so he's actually around the same age as pikhq at the least
21:18:40 <alise> Gregor: dude, he only acts like he's old :P
21:18:48 <alise> he knows very little!
21:18:57 <alise> has to be like 45835945
21:19:01 <alise> because he hates everything modern
21:19:08 <alise> or however the fuck you spell it name :P
21:19:13 <Phantom_Hoover> alise < Phantom_Hoover < (pikhq, Vorpal) < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan
21:19:15 <Gregor> jix and bsmntbombdood are both in the pre-pikhq-to-ais range ish?
21:19:16 <alise> I peg as being cpressey's age or older
21:19:23 <alise> bsmnt was like 16 in 2008
21:19:31 <alise> so he'd be around 18 now
21:19:39 <alise> jix, no clue, he's before my time
21:19:42 <Gregor> SO I was about right thanks to the "pre"
21:19:44 <alise> impomatic is 40-something i think
21:19:47 <alise> so actually older than oerjan
21:19:57 <Gregor> (If such a thing is possible!)
21:20:13 <Gregor> HackEgo < EgoBot < alise < Phantom_Hoover < (pikhq, Vorpal) < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan
21:20:17 <alise> but it doesn't talk much
21:20:21 <Gregor> HackEgo < EgoBot < clog < alise < Phantom_Hoover < (pikhq, Vorpal) < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan
21:20:37 <Gregor> If we had a bot that was older than an actual channel member, that would be pretty epic.
21:20:47 <pikhq> Oh *wow*. The Win95 installer uses Windows 3.11 widgets.
21:20:55 <alise> Gregor: it's offensive to group people's names with vorpal
21:20:57 <alise> use = or something
21:20:57 <Gregor> pikhq: Heeeey, I remember that!
21:21:11 <Gregor> pikhq: In the original disk-based Win95 release, you could make it use progman instead of explorer.
21:21:17 <Gregor> pikhq: I think they removed that from later releases.
21:21:32 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, Vorpal, please rank yourselves in order of age.
21:21:50 <Gregor> Who else actually talks ...
21:22:33 <pikhq> Gregor: Windows XP SP2 was the last version of Windows to have progman.
21:22:34 <Gregor> cheater99: I assume by your "99" that your birth-year is 1999, making you 10 or 11.
21:22:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Seriously.
21:22:53 <Gregor> pikhq: Nononono, the Win95 install let you set progman to be your default shell, instead of explorer.
21:22:56 <Gregor> pikhq: In the installer.
21:23:01 <pikhq> Gregor: That's amazing.
21:23:10 <pikhq> Gregor: Perverse, but amazing.
21:23:16 <Gregor> Well that makes cheater99 the youngest. At an incredibly negative -89 or so.
21:23:18 <alise> WE NEED A BIG BIRTHDAYS PAGE ^_____________________^
21:23:27 <alise> olsner: 24, amirite?
21:23:34 <cpressey> olsner: how old are you? SOME KIND OF CHART IS BEING ASSEMBLED
21:23:39 <alise> no other age is permitted
21:23:54 <alise> Why would you use such a format...
21:23:57 <Gregor> olsner is younger than EgoBot!
21:24:00 <alise> olsner: THAT IS NOT 24 OR 18
21:24:04 <alise> we will list youa s that
21:24:07 <Gregor> Also, he was on this channel before he was born.
21:24:12 <olsner> alise: no, I'm 24 actually, how the hell did you know?
21:24:15 <alise> olsner < HackEgo < EgoBot < clog < alise < Phantom_Hoover < (pikhq, Vorpal) < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan
21:24:25 <Gregor> alise: HackEgo is less than three.
21:24:28 <alise> olsner: probably you said it at one point, or it was on your blog, or i just deducted it
21:24:29 <Gregor> alise: Alternatively, HackEgo is <3
21:24:31 <alise> Gregor: NO IT'S NOT
21:24:41 <alise> olsner: I am *scarily* accurate at these things
21:24:43 <olsner> excellent deduction then
21:24:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I copied cpressey
21:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner < HackEgo < EgoBot < clog < alise < Phantom_Hoover < (pikhq, Vorpal) < Sgeo < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan
21:25:12 <alise> pikhq: Are you seeding that torrent :|
21:25:29 <alise> olsner < HackEgo < EgoBot < clog < alise < Phantom_Hoover < (pikhq, Vorpal) < Sgeo < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan < Phantom_Hoover
21:25:46 <alise> I’m called Matti Niemenmaa, and am also known as Deewiant in some online circles. I’m male, about a score of years old, and live in Finland.
21:26:02 <alise> so Deewiant's actually in the pikhq/Vorpal/Sgeo quadrant
21:26:28 <cpressey> i would not have guessed this ordering
21:26:36 <alise> pikhq: GOOD! Because I never seed >_>
21:26:38 <olsner> so this chart is seriously going to list me as 3 years old?
21:26:46 <alise> olsner: you have nobody to blame but yourself.
21:27:10 <alise> olsner: adjust your birthdate on your resume
21:27:26 <alise> make one and adjust the birthdate on it
21:27:44 <alise> first 3-year-old with a resume ever!
21:28:14 <olsner> child prodigy should be a group of 3-year-old kids doing prodigy songs
21:28:30 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:28:31 <alise> All together now! SMACK MY BITCH UP
21:28:33 <pikhq> alise: I set a default goal of a 2.0 ratio.
21:28:38 <alise> , said the 3 year olds.
21:29:07 <olsner> 20 classical Prodigy hits, performed in the rising sun kindergarten in south sussex
21:29:27 <alise> you're Swedish -- why do you say Sussex :|
21:30:11 <olsner> well, sometimes I just say stuff
21:30:25 <olsner> I'm sorry but that's just the way I do it
21:30:48 <olsner> "det är lite så jag jobbar", as we would say in swedish
21:31:10 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:33:31 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTV_News
21:33:47 <alise> olsner: "That is light for the jagged job-searcher", I presume
21:34:09 <olsner> alise: no, not even close
21:34:52 <pikhq> That are lite for jag jobber.
21:35:06 <olsner> more like "that's kind of the way I work" (work as in doing a job, not work as in function)
21:35:42 <olsner> well, bathtime anyway, see you some other time
21:36:10 <alise> olsner: three year old's bathtime
21:36:15 <alise> don't forget the ducky!
21:36:54 * alise gives olsner a ducky
21:37:05 <olsner> quacky quacky ducky ducky
21:37:05 -!- alise has changed nick to Media.
21:37:11 <Media> alise: What do you have to say for yourself, PAEDOPHILE?
21:37:13 -!- Media has changed nick to alise.
21:37:19 <alise> Media: I-- what? I was just giving him a ducky--
21:37:20 -!- alise has changed nick to Media.
21:37:28 <Media> A "ducky" -- is this not a VILE SEXUAL PERVERSION?
21:37:29 -!- Media has changed nick to alise.
21:37:32 -!- alise has changed nick to Media.
21:37:33 <olsner> alise is like 2.5a old anyway, I'm older
21:37:35 <Media> You are hereby sentenced to DEATH
21:38:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Paedofinder_Gene.
21:38:10 <olsner> but I'm certain some legislations allow minors to be sentenced as paedophiles even when molesting older kids
21:38:14 <Media> Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUkt59vY1Q
21:38:45 -!- Paedofinder_Gene has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:38:51 <olsner> it's just the kind of legal area where stupid things like that would be going on (except, of course, copyright law)
21:38:53 <pikhq> Well, it "reboots to install more files" and then... Locks up.
21:39:14 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:40:06 <pikhq> So, whaddya think. Qemu?
21:40:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Piratefinder_Gen.
21:40:49 -!- Piratefinder_Gen has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:40:57 <Media> pikhq: I can probably fix it.
21:41:01 <Media> I have got it working in VB before.
21:41:03 <Media> That's what I used.
21:41:05 -!- Media has changed nick to alise.
21:41:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, you anticipated my reference before I noticed.
21:41:49 -!- jcp has joined.
21:42:01 <alise> pikhq: Firstly: How much RAM you got?
21:42:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: >_>
21:43:23 <pikhq> alise: I assigned it 512M.
21:45:16 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:45:20 <pikhq> alise: Just shy of 2GiB.
21:45:24 <alise> "Divided into 2 GB partitions!"
21:45:41 <alise> A: to ITWASTHEBESTOFTI:
21:45:44 <Gregor> alise: Assigned drive names of C-Z...err
21:46:10 -!- wareya has joined.
21:46:20 <alise> pikhq: Try starting again and tell me what you do at each step. I'm surprised -- maybe it is a problem with the CD.
21:46:34 <Gregor> olsner < HackEgo < EgoBot < clog < alise < Phantom_Hoover < wareya < (pikhq, Vorpal) < Sgeo < ais523 < Gregor < cpressey < oerjan < Phantom_Hoover
21:46:34 <pikhq> Dang, this is time-consuming when you forget to start kqemu...
21:46:43 <alise> pikhq: Is the CD attached to the VM still?
21:46:54 <pikhq> Gregor: Erm, that.
21:46:59 <alise> KVM: Because FUCK EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T HAVE VIRTUALISATION
21:47:20 <Gregor> alise: At this point, your CPU has to be pretty darn olde not to have it ...
21:47:23 <pikhq> alise: It goes all the way through the steps on the booted-from-CD part of the install, reboots to boot off of the HD, and halts.
21:47:34 <alise> Gregor: All low-end Intel models lack it.
21:47:40 <alise> At least before i3 started becoming common on laptops, I guess.
21:48:02 <Gregor> alise: People with low-end processors are low-end people.
21:48:03 <alise> Gregor: For instance, any Core 2 laptop with a battery life over three minutes doesn't have VT-x.
21:48:28 <alise> I'm using a 1.33 GHz Core 2 Duo processor and it's wonderful.
21:48:32 <Gregor> alise: And yet, my '08 MacBook does.
21:48:40 <pikhq> Gregor: God, Bochs would be practical for this.
21:48:43 <alise> Gregor: ORITE because you *love* Apple
21:49:26 <alise> pikhq: I'm trying the CD in VB now.
21:49:38 <alise> Swear this was graphical for me.
21:50:17 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, it just has a very small non-graphical bit. Like all of Windows installs.
21:50:29 <alise> I don't recall it, but sure :P
21:50:34 <alise> Wow, Audacity's "Fix Clip" tool is ... magical.
21:50:45 <alise> It has made the awesome album well-produced!
21:50:49 <alise> From a square to actual wavse.
21:51:33 <alise> Gregor: Are you aware of what "audio" is?
21:52:09 <Gregor> alise: No. But I am aware of the concept of waves moving through physical matter, and have been told that audio is somehow related to that. Describe it to me.
21:52:16 <alise> pikhq: What installation method did you choose in VB?
21:53:11 <alise> pikhq: I diagnose your only diagnosis.
21:54:10 <alise> Issue with Fix Clip: when a part of the track isn't clipped, but it leads into a louder, clipped section, the onset is kinda subdued unlike before.
21:56:05 <alise> pikhq: Windows 95 is so awesome.
21:58:25 <alise> pikhq: SHOULD I INSTALL MICROSOFT MAIL AND FAX OPMG
22:02:58 <pikhq> Hmm. It seems that Audacity handles Replay Gain.
22:05:32 <alise> I wonder how Clip Fix actually works.
22:05:52 <alise> pikhq: The problems with Audacity are otherwise, like having the world's worst UI or the world's crappiest feature set.
22:07:00 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/Scholar/ ITT: Organised breaking of copyright for science!
22:08:00 <alise> pikhq: Mail and Fax or not?!
22:08:40 * alise enables all accessories
22:08:55 <pikhq> alise: The only optional thing I installed was defrag.
22:10:07 <alise> WTF NO UK KEYBOARD LAYOUT
22:10:34 <pikhq> Hmm. Should I try and *clean* this here horribly abused disc, or should I just torrent one?
22:10:43 <alise> It's like ddrescue but more reliable.
22:11:18 <alise> pikhq: I've actually downloaded my own torrent for a game before after losing my disc.
22:11:31 <alise> pikhq: The Linus Torvalds backup system: put it on the Internet for everyone else.
22:12:39 <alise> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3503268/Worms_Armageddon_(Team17__1998__Sold-Out_version)
22:13:57 <pikhq> "Getting ready to run Windows 95 for the first time..." \o/
22:15:10 <pikhq> IT FUCKING CRASHED
22:15:14 <pikhq> IT FUCKING CRASHED QEMU
22:15:58 <alise> pikhq: VIRTUALBOX BITCH
22:16:11 <alise> IT'S WHAT PLANTS CRAVE
22:16:57 <alise> pikhq: Windows Setup, part two, now running in VirtualBox.
22:17:01 <alise> Askin' for a username and shit.
22:17:08 <alise> I'm Elliott, bitch.
22:17:19 <alise> Scannin' hardware 'n shit
22:17:22 <alise> pikhq: It works perfectly yo.
22:18:47 <pikhq> alise: Have you seen "Getting ready to run Windows 95 for the first time..." ?
22:19:07 <alise> It is now asking me to insert my CD-ROM, after having created an account and scanning hardware.
22:19:33 <alise> pikhq: Create VM, 384 megs of ram, 2 gig HD, start it, insert CD, go through the install, let all the default hardware settings be taken, yes you have network and sound hardware, take out the CD, reboot.
22:19:36 <alise> Insert CD when prompted.
22:19:43 <alise> Use VirtualBox 3.1.6.
22:20:46 <alise> Now it 'plains about not having files on the CD.
22:24:17 <alise> pikhq: Reboot *with* the cd but press f12; select the hard disk to boot from.
22:24:26 <alise> Follow the above instructions and it should work perfectly, unless you're crazy.
22:24:31 <alise> Or your computer is crazy.
22:25:55 <alise> Add Printer Wizard: You must install a printer before you can print from Windows. This wizard will help you install your printer.
22:26:03 <alise> Printer printer printer printer printer? Printer! Printer printer printer, printer; printer.
22:26:47 <pikhq> Windows protection error. You need to restart your computer.
22:26:55 <alise> pikhq: Hmph. What?
22:27:03 <alise> pikhq: Do you have virtualisation turned on in VirtualBox?
22:27:22 <pikhq> I rebooted and selected normal mode, and now have a login prompt.
22:28:06 <alise> pikhq: By the way, the first -- no, the *very* first -- thing to do is to install VBEMP.
22:28:12 <alise> You have *no idea* how slow and how ugly the VGA driver is.
22:28:22 <alise> I CAN SEE THE INDIVIDUAL CONTROL PANEL ICONS DRAW ONE BY ONE.
22:28:37 <alise> "Opening the start menu" takes quantifiable time!
22:28:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: say something
22:31:34 <alise> pikhq: It is possible that this disc does not have networking stuff on it.
22:31:53 <pikhq> alise: Use D:/, not X:/
22:31:56 <cheater99> do you have win 95 se with Plus! ?
22:32:12 <alise> pikhq: Didn't work for me, but I'll try again.
22:32:17 <alise> cheater99: no, that's rubbish. wait, since when is there an se?
22:32:37 <cheater99> it wasn't "se" but everyone knows it's the "se"
22:32:48 <alise> it makes explorer into ie explorer
22:32:49 <alise> for the first time
22:32:59 <alise> replacing a wonderfully light and usable interface with bullshit
22:33:02 <alise> cheater99: there are third-party drivers
22:33:11 <alise> OSR B is just 98 pretending to be the best Windows ever
22:33:35 <alise> yes, crap a whole two years early
22:33:37 <cheater99> YOU HAVE JUST COLLAPSED THE TIME CONTINUUM.
22:33:56 <alise> pikhq: this cd seems to suck
22:33:59 <alise> it's crashing virtualbox
22:34:10 <alise> or maybe that's the failed copy
22:34:20 <pikhq> It does seem to suck.
22:34:27 <alise> pikhq: i could find the one i used way back
22:34:32 <alise> that one worked perfectly
22:34:38 <cpressey> HALT at 0xfe0fc1ac: Printer Wizard is casting Bad Magic
22:35:34 <alise> pikhq: Hmph, where on earth is the CD version...
22:35:37 <alise> All this floppy crap!
22:35:57 <Gregor> http://filmcow.com/binotheelephant.html ONE THOUSAND TIMES YES FOREVER
22:36:01 <alise> The Windows 9x Project (95 OSR2.5, 98, 98SE, and ME)
22:36:16 <cpressey> HALT at 0c3ecd00d: Workgroup Dragon has eaten Printer Wizard
22:36:27 <pikhq> alise: It does indeed suck.
22:36:36 <alise> Gregor: WHAT IS THIS
22:36:51 <Gregor> alise: By the guy who made Charlie the Unicorn.
22:37:15 <alise> "Yes, Meredith, I've sent an elephant to Hell, it's science stuff you wouldn't understand."
22:38:10 <alise> "Pooping! I've been poo-ping! A looo~t." ...this thing is going to be all quotes, isn't it?
22:38:24 <Gregor> alise: But not entirely.
22:38:52 <alise> "I think you've found the CHAMBER OF MISERY!" "Oh, good, how do I get in it."
22:41:50 <alise> Gregor: Please tell me there will be a sequel.
22:42:00 <Gregor> Probably. No guarantees, I am not the Film Cow.
22:42:04 <alise> Hey, a Vanilla the Plastic Snowman reference!
22:42:08 <alise> You don't see that every day.
22:42:24 <Gregor> But Llamas with Hats got sequels, and it's not as funny.
22:42:39 -!- Gregor has set topic: We are doing science SO HARD right now. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:43:02 -!- alise has set topic: The flower... is crawling... up my urethra... | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:43:07 <alise> Clearly the more relevant quote for this channel.
22:43:24 <Gregor> Needs more screamycaps.
22:43:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://filmcow.com/binotheelephant.html
22:43:35 <alise> Gregor: But he said it so resignedly!
22:43:49 <alise> pikhq: using D: helps not, it still can't finderate the filia.
22:44:05 -!- Gregor has set topic: The flower ... is climbing ... ... UP MY URETHRAAAAAAAA ... and singing! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:44:13 <alise> Gregor: "Bino's journey into hell begins!"
22:44:17 -!- Gregor has set topic: The flower ... is crawling ... ... UP MY URETHRAAAAAAAA ... and singing! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:44:54 <alise> What... did you change?
22:45:32 <alise> pikhq: I can't find the fuzucking torrentsimo!
22:45:48 <alise> http://www.torrentz.com/ad773aa9319cded389aff39b6989df7547af0eeb Inexplicable CD contents
22:46:37 <alise> http://www.torrentz.com/e77df637b08d16b8a346804780f05299dd034400
22:46:38 <alise> http://www.torrentz.com/8deb7a5f6e0b48ba68199ac699b13e7646c20f35
22:51:43 <Gregor> Science, Bino. Speculative science!
22:54:45 <alise> "Either way, she's a spanking good witch" --DMM on Hermione Granger, Irregular Webcomic! cast list, making everyone feel vaguely uncomfortable
22:55:32 <Phantom_Hoover> DMM: the last person you'd expect to make you feel uncomfortable.
22:56:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Except for in that exact "have a gay old time" sense that only the profoundly non-discomforting can achieve.
23:04:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, did anyone else look at his raytracing work?
23:05:06 * pikhq comes to the conclusion that per-app WINE prefixes is the *only* way to use WINE.
23:05:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Where it stores the C drive, WINE configuration, and registry.
23:06:33 <pikhq> Because sometimes you need to do funky stuff to get a program running.
23:06:44 <pikhq> And Windows programs are notorious for interfering with each other.
23:07:43 <pikhq> Oh, and Windows programs are effectively impossible to fully install.
23:08:09 <pikhq> But, if each Windows program is in its own self-contained world, it's just a matter of rm
23:10:16 <cpressey> HALT at 0x98a1d1ed: Dungeon Update is missing DLLs and Manacles
23:18:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Windows programs spew shit everywhere.
23:21:09 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:22:30 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:24:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I still want to know how an arbitrary point on the Sierpiński Gasket can be identified.
23:30:10 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: the limit of a series of Hanoi coin flips
23:30:29 <cpressey> I realize this is circular for your goal! Ha!
23:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hanoi#Graphical_representation
23:31:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: oh -- I thought it was the random thing you were doing
23:32:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea whatsoever how this might be accomplished
23:32:45 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I doubt there is a way to identify a point in an infinitely detailed structure without giving an infinite "path"
23:33:04 <cpressey> either up, or down, depending on how you build the gasket, as we discussed (sort of)
23:33:10 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: it's a fractal
23:33:19 <cpressey> There is no point at which you can't zoom in
23:33:37 <Phantom_Hoover> In which case, I think identification might be easy enough with an infinite stream of trits.
23:33:49 <cpressey> Is pretty much what I just said.
23:34:02 <cpressey> In fact, could be bits, from what I understand
23:34:24 <Phantom_Hoover> No, has to be trits, since the repeating unit is repeated 3 times.
23:34:42 <cpressey> If you start at one of the corners, then flip a coin, then move to halfway between the corner you were just on, and one of the other two corners (becomes the new "corner you're on"), you approach the gasket.
23:34:56 <cpressey> I read this in a magazine once.
23:35:07 <cpressey> And I must be remembering it correctly.
23:35:35 <cpressey> So you only need bits -- the series of flips in an infinite Chaos game -- to identify a point.
23:36:04 <cpressey> Isn't it one of the corners you're not currently on?
23:36:15 <cpressey> I could easily be misremembering that part.
23:39:26 <Phantom_Hoover> My algorithm was more or less "number each subtriangle, select the one corresponding to the current trit, lather, rinse, repeat."
23:40:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is more or less the floating-point of Sierpiński representation.
23:42:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you do realise an infinite stream of bits = an infinite stream of trits, right?
23:43:30 <alise> i was gonna make that joke, also you forgot the closing /
23:43:33 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:43:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ofc R^2 has all the points inside, it just has a lot of points outside too :)
23:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So taking C to be pairs of reals, quarter-imaginary is the logical equivalent of binary.
23:45:04 <alise> Slereah: Phantom_Hoover wouldn't know about the tit positioning of the sierpinski triangle anyway, being a gay vampire and all
23:45:46 <fungot> alise: or use integer arithmetic. chicken performs *much* faster with fixnum optimizations.
23:46:28 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
23:46:34 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: yes, indeed. in fact, extremely difficult and sometimes tragic summer that we have a responsibility, although by a small oligarchy that is cut off from any hope of access even to the persecution of all political decision-makers. all this serves to enrich and complete the picture, we must take account of the new developments in the balkans.
23:53:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do you read Irregular Webcomic?
23:54:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I do, but sporadically (irregular, one might say); I'm thinking about reading it. From #1. To present day.
23:54:42 <alise> Tell me how crazy I am!
23:54:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I did it a year ago, but that's not too big a difference.
23:55:21 -!- zzo38 has set topic: I have nice flowers! They even talk! But I want to win a big spider! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:55:39 <Phantom_Hoover> What, doesn't everyone archive binge when they find an interesting webcomic?
23:55:51 <alise> Let's see. If it takes me seven seconds to read, digest, laugh at, and read and digest the annotations of, and then go on to the comic after, one single comic -- a ridiculously low estimate, most likely -- then it'd take five and a half hours, without breaks, to read all the comics. And that's if I did it all before the next comic is posted.
23:55:55 <alise> Methinks it is a multiple-day endeavour.
23:56:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I do when there aren't 2812 freakin' stripts!
23:56:32 <alise> I once tried to archive-binge User Friendly. I think I covered about five years or something.
23:56:53 <alise> cpressey: I had faulty humour receptors.
23:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I once calculated that on Archive Binge's highest setting, it would take 333 days to read all of Schlock Mercenary.
23:57:07 <cpressey> But as long as we're confessing, I archive-binged Sluggy Freelance once.
23:57:16 <alise> Sluggy -- isn't that the one written by a Mormon?
23:57:31 <alise> Or was that Schlock Mercenary?
23:57:37 <cpressey> alise: It's possible. I don't track the religious beliefs of webcomic authors.
23:57:41 <alise> God, who even cares about all these shitty comics.
23:57:51 <alise> cpressey: Mormons are a bit weirder than pure religion :)
23:57:59 <alise> Produced Twilight, too! I'm sure that book commits all kinds of sins.
23:58:02 <alise> Like "don't be awful".
23:58:35 <alise> I could deal with plain mormon, but I hate missionaries with a fiery passion.
23:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't believe for a second that Meyer wrote down her erotic vampire dreams.
23:59:13 <alise> Matz was a Mormon missionary, which makes me sad as he's a really nice guy.
23:59:20 <alise> Thankfully, I don't like Ruby nearly as much as I used to, so it's no issue!
23:59:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It's clearly insidiously crafted to worm its way into teenage girls' minds.
23:59:29 -!- augur has joined.
23:59:32 <cpressey> totally, she dictated them to her mother, who wrote them down
23:59:52 <cpressey> isn't larry wall something too?
00:00:02 <alise> wow, i like how that appeared after the larry wall comment
00:00:07 <alise> "Isn't Larry Wall something too?" "Naked!"
00:00:14 <alise> Larry Wall is just plain Christian
00:00:24 <alise> "While in graduate school at UC Berkeley, Wall and his wife were studying linguistics with the intention afterwards of finding an unwritten language, perhaps in Africa, and creating a writing system for it. They would then use this new writing system to translate various texts into the language, among them the Bible."
00:00:44 <alise> Give a native culture a language... and a new religion!
00:01:01 <alise> Never mind trying to bring them into the enlightened, scientific age. Or leaving them alone; no! We'll EVOLVE their backwardsness.
00:01:09 <alise> Erm. CREATE their backwardsness! No, wait, that's not right... DAMN YOU DARWIN!
00:01:53 <alise> Thankfully, Perl is both crazy and Wall a bit loopy.
00:01:59 <alise> So no cognitive dissonance!
00:03:00 * pikhq can has ie6, ie7, and ie8 app-specific VMs!
00:03:13 <alise> pikhq: I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO EXPERIENCE THREE PAINS AT ONCE
00:03:38 <alise> "A scale model of the Universe is not actually that hard to make. If you make a model the size of a basketball, then to scale everything in the Universe is smaller than an atom, so there's no need to even bother putting it in there.
00:03:38 <alise> So just take a spherical container and pump the air out. Voilà!" --DMM
00:03:42 <cpressey> you have know idea how desirable that setup is for testing in web-based companies
00:03:43 <alise> SCIENCE PROJECT OBTAINED
00:03:48 <alise> "This is a SCALE MODEL of the ENTIRE universe."
00:04:00 <alise> pikhq: BTW, you could have just used IEs4Linux.
00:04:05 <alise> Which ... does all that for you.
00:04:16 <alise> Although, maybe not the per-app Wine installs.
00:04:18 <alise> But it does it somehow.
00:04:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Expand acronym.
00:04:51 <cpressey> "you know, you have no idea" got mangled on the way to the keyboard
00:05:06 <alise> Oh, I thought CoW was some application.
00:05:55 <cpressey> It's an exciting massively multiplayer online game about the back-office aspect of warfare
00:06:11 <pikhq> alise: IEs4Linux is old and crufty and does obnoxious things that WINE doesn't need anymore.
00:06:20 <pikhq> Though, IE8 doesn't appear to work in WINE ATM.
00:06:26 <alise> pikhq: It's also that great thing: convenient.
00:06:38 <alise> Okay so it doesn't work any more.
00:06:40 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, but it also creates a borken IE7.
00:06:49 <pikhq> And slightly borken IE6.
00:06:51 <alise> http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/ies4linux
00:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> WP's article says among its disadvantages are that it a) doesn't work and b) isn't maintained any more.
00:07:21 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: read-only, or can I make updates?
00:07:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: :D
00:07:29 <alise> It doesn't work, but it is maintained!
00:07:36 <alise> cpressey: BUT HOW EDIT SUMMARY FROM EDITOR???
00:07:38 <pikhq> I've got a basically-perfect IE6 and an IE7 with graphical glitches.
00:07:41 <alise> FILESYSTEM INSUFFICIENT FOR WIKIWATCHERS
00:07:50 <alise> pikhq: "Basically perfect [...] with [flaws]"
00:07:57 <alise> I do not think it means what you think it means.
00:08:26 <pikhq> alise: No, IE6 is pretty much perfect, and IE7 has a couple of graphical glitches.
00:08:34 <alise> I missed the "an".
00:08:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Jarring thing in the 2008/2009 IWC apocalypse: Somehow Espionage didn't get destroyed???
00:08:52 <pikhq> The graphical glitches are *just* on its toolbar.
00:09:01 <alise> But then how did the universe get destroyed, if everyone has to destroy it at once for that to happen?
00:09:11 <alise> Or did it just say multiple? Regardless:
00:09:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that the Fantasy and Espionage universes are separate.
00:09:17 <alise> How can you claim that the *entire universe* has been destroyed?
00:09:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So they have no Death?
00:09:24 <pikhq> ... Hrm, it appears to render things oddly, too.
00:09:27 <alise> Because there's pretty clearly only one Death canon.
00:09:36 <alise> And that canon said "yo, everyone died".
00:09:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, blatantly false -- see crossovers on http://irregularwebcomic.net/cast/.
00:09:59 <pikhq> About the only issues I see with IE6 are... IE6.
00:10:04 <alise> Indeed, Death *first appeared* in Fantasy.
00:10:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Conclusion: THIS MAKES NO SENSE
00:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the only Fantasy-¬{Death} crossover I can think of was very contrived and clearly a one-off joke.
00:11:20 <alise> http://irregularwebcomic.net/cast/
00:11:27 <alise> There have been three non-Death Fantasy crossovers.
00:11:33 <alise> And four non-Death Space crossovers.
00:11:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And furthermore, Death is the important one.
00:11:41 <alise> Death *started* in Fantasy.
00:11:44 <alise> It's the same Death all the way through.
00:11:50 <alise> And that Death organisation said that everyone died.
00:12:03 <alise> So everyone *must* *have* *died*, so *WHAT HAPPENED TO ESPIONAGE AND SPACE?*
00:12:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: They said "multiple realities".
00:12:22 <alise> They accounted for that.
00:12:28 <alise> Every twindly bit of universe was destroyed, sez they.
00:14:23 <alise> DMM is too nice. Just the annotations where he goes on about stuff.
00:14:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Have the Fantasy Deaths and the main theme universe Deaths ever been explicitly linked, other than sharing names?
00:15:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In conclusion: MAJOR PLOT HOLE
00:15:46 <alise> Don't say it's minor, IWC has a concrete plot and the frickin' universe got destroyed, any flaw in that involving UNIVERSES STILL EXISTING is major :P
00:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, perhaps the Deaths have their own subtle plans.
00:15:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well... OTOH
00:16:02 <alise> Fantasy and Space are both accounts of IRL RPG games.
00:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Note that the IWCverse is currently hurtling towards another cataclysm.
00:16:17 <alise> So you COULD argue -- although this has holes -- that since only the fictional universe got destroyed, they didn't.
00:16:26 <alise> This is obviously hokum for so many reasons, but it almost gets you out of it. Sort of.
00:16:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I suggest we tell him to fix it! :P
00:17:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Has he fully considered the implications, though?!?!
00:17:30 <alise> cpressey: You're exasperated at our canon arguments. :|
00:17:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, we speak of the inventor of Piet. He has endless complexities beyond our ken.
00:17:49 <alise> cpressey: sure, got tolerance for clingy Q fangirls that hover around you and never attack?
00:17:56 <alise> and also currently ungolfed code to do so?
00:17:59 <alise> 'cuz that's what i've got right now
00:18:39 <alise> cpressey: plan to change the code? if you do i'd better upload debug.py as well
00:18:54 <cpressey> alise: prolly not but WHO KNOWS
00:19:18 <alise> cpressey: It's almost incomprehensibly short. Nobody can resist tweaking it.
00:19:44 <alise> cpressey: http://pastie.org/1208840.txt?key=xipxlhgc0dyfwptglqkg vagrant.py
00:20:16 <alise> cpressey: http://pastie.org/1208841.txt?key=sqzicem58jcp8gwcxeuba debug.py (run instead of vagrant.py to see exceptions rather than silent death)
00:20:30 <alise> cpressey: To get rid of mindless fangirls: Comment out the long for loop in T().
00:20:53 <alise> Fun fact: If you remove those lines entirely, you can't quite believe it's a game that does anything.
00:21:04 <alise> cpressey: Oh, and it may or may not work with Python 2.7; I forget if they made / into proper division then, or just in 3.0.
00:21:13 <alise> It relies on / being integer division. If it doesn't work, change the two divisions to use //.
00:21:53 <cpressey> i think they probably did not change / in 2.7 because wait what am i saying
00:22:04 <alise> cpressey: Gameplay: you know this. vikeys to move, q to quaff potions (displayed after HP), % is food, ! is potion, # is wall, the rest you can figure out yourself
00:22:18 <alise> S is satiation, lose it and you die quickly without ridiculous hp and proximity to food
00:22:26 <alise> and fwiw i strongly recommend commenting out the AI code if you want to play
00:22:29 <alise> it's very annoying
00:22:34 <alise> to have Qs cluster around you constantly
00:22:44 <alise> also it looks way shorter without it.
00:23:25 <alise> cpressey: And, yes, I do use "str" as the shortest way to write a function that, when called with no arguments, produces no side effects.
00:24:05 <alise> cpressey: Do you have any irritating "Pythonistas" there who love to go on about beautiful Python code and best practices and formatting your code properly and documenting it and oh the PEP-8 and?
00:24:16 <alise> cpressey: 'cuz if so, totally show them this. With the AI code taken out, it's too normal-looking.
00:24:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The Python style guide.
00:25:30 <alise> cpressey: Oh, and yeah, despite being less than two kilobytes, my code *does* in fact feature a better scrolling mechanism than Crawl.
00:25:35 <alise> Conclusion: Crawl developers are morons
00:28:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, rereading the IWC apocalypse '09 arc, the Deaths only say the universe was destroyed.
00:29:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: They also say that *everyone* died.
00:30:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I still go for the "Deaths have a secret agenda" theory
00:30:47 <cpressey> alise: re pythonistas, um sorta. but not that bad.
00:31:24 <cpressey> "Python understands me but I'll never get along with Ruby", yes.
00:31:27 <alise> crawl is like nethack, but the monsters hate you personally as opposed to just being nasties, and even though you move your character stays in the centre because crawl is the game of headaches
00:31:36 <alise> also, it has a ridiculously huge sidebar
00:31:45 <cpressey> developers whose wardrobe consists almost entire of python-themed t-shirts, yes.
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00:31:50 <alise> also, it has a command to explore the level for you, because they're so large and featureless that doing it manually would cause suicide in anyone
00:32:03 <alise> cpressey: yeah -- rip out the AI lines and show them this
00:32:17 <alise> then get them to run it and watch them cry as they try and figure out how guido could possibly have let this happen
00:33:47 <alise> "This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with today's comic. I just thought it was so interesting that I had an urge to share it." --http://irregularwebcomic.net/2203.html
00:34:53 <alise> "It's called 35mm film because it is 35 millimetres wide."
00:35:51 <alise> "Records, for those people younger than about 30 years old, were the precursors of compact discs."
00:35:58 <alise> I -- what 20-year-old does not know this?
00:36:49 <Sgeo> Even I knew it!
00:36:57 <Sgeo> Although I think it was a joke
00:37:37 <alise> Sgeo: no, he gave the diameter
00:37:40 <alise> well, in approximate terms
00:37:42 <alise> (twice that of a CD)
00:37:43 <alise> "There is also a Nyquist plugin called Clipfix for Audacity that uses cubic splines to ensure that the restored signal is continuously differentiable."
00:37:49 <alise> so that's how it works.
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00:39:31 <alise> pikhq: Reversing the loudness war sounds SO GOOD
00:39:48 <alise> Although it decreases dynamic range a little because you have to amplify by -10dB first.
00:39:52 <alise> That may just be my imagination.
00:39:59 <alise> But some "climaxes" do seem a little less punchy.
00:41:11 <pikhq> alise: Whaddya mean, amplify by -10dB first?
00:41:31 <alise> pikhq: That's what you have to do with Clip Fix.
00:41:43 <alise> Otherwise, says it, it may not have the headroom to put in the interpolated samples.
00:41:51 <alise> Although in practice I think -3 to -5 dB would do it just fine.
00:42:25 <pikhq> Of course, it's not like what you're doing this to *has* dynamic range in the first place.
00:42:53 <alise> pikhq: Well... the music does... arguably. (Okay, very arguably; not the quietest band.) But the mastering sure as hell doesn't.
00:43:02 <alise> if you have a non-clipped bit, and then a clipped bit after it,
00:43:08 <alise> then the punchiness of the transition is decreased
00:43:12 <alise> pikhq: Maybe we could just get Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab to release all good albums.
00:43:22 <alise> Sure, they do that weird gold CD stuff, but they sure as hell master properly.
00:43:31 <alise> (Okay, I don't actually *know* that, but I'm pretty sure they do.0
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00:44:15 <alise> Incidentally, Clip Fix is *slow*.
00:44:26 <alise> It takes, like, an hour to do a bit-over-10-minutes song.
00:46:38 <alise> "(In 1988, George Bush called Mike Dukakis a "card-carrying member of the ACLU", in effect comparing the Bill of Rights with Communism and its defenders with Communists. This insult to the US Constitution inspired me, as it did many others, to join the ACLU. Let's hope the Shrub will not be president; one Bush was too many.)" --Stallman, 2000
00:46:42 <alise> DAMMIT STALLMAN, WHY DID YOU CURSE US
00:46:52 <alise> But all of us, we had to hear about it.
00:47:29 <alise> pikhq: Thing that needs to die: Single edits.
00:49:03 <alise> "Our (the UK) Education Secretary has links to Opius Dei. Ruth Kelly is her name
00:49:04 <alise> (very strange looking woman, some sort of Lesbo-mutant if you ask me)" --silly conspiracy forums
00:49:23 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:50:45 <alise> pikhq: (Thing that needs to die: Music industry)
00:53:14 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:54:48 <zzo38> Thing that needs to die: Me. But not now.
00:55:39 <alise> zzo38: So, if you were told you would live forever, this would be terrible to you?
00:56:26 <zzo38> alise: Assuming many-universes, it is OK if I live forever in one possible universe, as long as it is not the case in all of them.
00:56:38 <alise> zzo38: Why is that?
00:56:50 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:56:59 <zzo38> alise: Surely if everyone live forever there will be no room.
00:57:43 <alise> zzo38: That is a position that is remarkably at odds with scientific progress.
00:58:18 <alise> And besides, if we assume many-universes, there is already a universe in which everyone lives forever.
01:00:30 <Sgeo> STOP CRASHING FLASH
01:00:32 <zzo38> What level of many-universes do you mean? I read a article there is four levels. What I mean is the one specified as level III in the article. If such a universe is exist, then it won't be like that forever.
01:00:33 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU FLASH
01:00:49 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then just disable Flash, if it doesn't work?
01:00:59 <Sgeo> There are YouTube videos I want to watch
01:01:03 <zzo38> (Or else, write your own implementation)
01:01:10 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then use a conversion program, maybe.
01:08:56 <zzo38> When watching Uncyclopedia, do so in a well lit room, and do not sit too close to the TV. We are absolutely not accountable for your actions, especially if you try to use this information in a dark room.
01:09:16 <zzo38> Consult a doctor if reading while pregnant, diabetic or hypersensitive to penicillin. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. Void where prohibited. Where there is smoke there is fire. Swimming is the best form of exercise. Batteries not included.
01:09:46 <zzo38> Do not fold, spindle or mutilate. Call your mother, she's worried about you. Close cover before striking. Game pieces do not actually talk. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Some assembly required. List each check separately by bank number.
01:10:00 <alise> Do not paste long quotes into IRC unless they're funny. Do not taunt.
01:11:00 <zzo38> Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. And also do not taunt long quotes into IRC unless they're funny. And also do not funny long quotes into CRI if they are not. And also.
01:12:50 <Sgeo> Maybe a restart will help
01:16:11 <zzo38> Why does it say "METAFONT failed for some reason" but there is no error message, and it seems to be working?
01:16:39 <zzo38> It also says "ignoring 0 strange path(s)"
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01:40:41 <cpressey> i came home to find a very tiny spider on my desk
01:41:36 <alise> cpressey: that's profound.
01:41:59 <cpressey> well, according to the topic, i guess i did not win
01:42:13 <cpressey> or i got like 556th place or something
01:42:18 <alise> cpressey: here's a vagrant.py with the AI pre-removed OMG how revolutionary:
01:42:20 <alise> http://pastie.org/1208931.txt?key=lqqwxvq9rvwdlbukvnmgtw
01:42:25 <alise> the ol' debug.py still applies
01:42:40 <alise> gah, the code is way too short. how the fuck does it work
01:42:43 <alise> makes no sense man
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01:44:36 <cpressey> it is the awesome power of joomla
01:46:19 <cpressey> (omg now they all KNOW my SEKRIT)
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01:53:54 <cpressey> um does it wear off eventually?
01:54:56 <cpressey> if your terminal is >80 (or at least -- mine is)
01:55:19 <cpressey> or rather, it "scrolls" a half page to the right each turn
01:55:36 <alise> cpressey: yeah 80x24 or bust
01:55:44 <alise> supporting anything else = more bytes :)
01:55:53 <alise> resize it, it's not like the game uses any more :P
01:56:23 <alise> cpressey: i can think maybe what causes that
01:56:47 <alise> def C(x):s.insstr(23,0,' '*80);s.insstr(23,0,x);s.redrawwin()
01:56:49 <alise> replace C() with this
01:56:58 <alise> although i still recommend 80x24 so you can see the border of vision
01:57:06 <cpressey> but the proper scrolling is very very cool
01:57:21 <alise> X-=(X-x)/17;Y-=(Y-y)/5
01:57:24 <alise> and only two statements, too!
01:58:04 <alise> cpressey: btw to hallucinate wildly just keep eating food until the 1/15 chance smiles upon you
01:58:06 <alise> happens quite often
01:58:08 <cpressey> alise: does hallucination wear off
01:58:16 <alise> 85 to 100 turns, pressing space may help
01:58:27 <alise> quaff potions if you have any
01:58:33 <alise> cpressey: to identify what things are, here's a cheat:
01:58:52 <cpressey> how do i know what potions i have
01:59:00 <alise> all potions are the same
01:59:01 <cpressey> well, maybe i got a lot of hallucinatory food and fifn'yt notice
01:59:05 <alise> just gets mixed into one infinite container
01:59:07 <alise> yeah that's likely
01:59:18 <alise> cpressey: 47 HP restorable by potions
01:59:25 <alise> actually tracking individual potions is too many bytes
01:59:29 <pikhq> alise: Loudness war'd albums have won Grammies for Best Engineered Album.
01:59:32 <cpressey> that explains why q put it down to 27
01:59:33 <alise> q=min(P,20);L=min(L+q,300)
01:59:33 <alise> if P and L<301:U=min(U+q*3*(U>0),300);P-=q;T()
01:59:36 <pikhq> alise: Yes, really.
01:59:39 <alise> so it also takes away some U
01:59:46 <alise> pikhq: loudness war'd albums = all albums now
01:59:50 <alise> so that's not surprising, if depressing
02:00:00 <alise> it also means that great, modern albums are saddled with terrible production
02:00:20 <pikhq> alise: Not all albums, actually.
02:00:27 <pikhq> alise: Just an obnoxious amount of them.
02:00:34 <alise> pikhq: All major-label and most minor-label albums.
02:00:44 <pikhq> Like I said, obnoxious.
02:00:51 <alise> cpressey: btw, enter is designed to dismiss messages
02:00:54 <alise> to see the status line
02:00:59 <alise> but it redraws, and so re-hallus
02:01:01 <alise> despite taking 0 turns
02:01:06 <alise> so if you hold it down you can make out what things are mostly
02:01:13 <alise> since there's only a 1/3 chance a given tile will be distorted
02:01:21 <alise> this is a "bug" but it's way too much trouble to fix it
02:01:49 <pikhq> alise: It's sad that I have to applaud people for *having any dynamic range* in their music.
02:02:07 <cpressey> alise: pretty sure i'm perma-llucinating.
02:02:19 <alise> cpressey: how much S do you have?
02:02:27 <alise> pikhq: well a lot of music has dynamic range musically, just not production-wise
02:02:34 <alise> cpressey: how many potions?
02:02:40 <alise> cpressey: and, hp?
02:02:43 <pikhq> alise: Well, yes. You know what I mean. Music, *as published*.
02:03:14 <cpressey> only remember seeing one "Yuk!" message
02:03:15 <alise> cpressey: q until all potions are gone, hold down any key -- i suggest space -- (that doesn't move or quaff or anything, and isn't enter) until you're at about S:10a
02:03:23 <alise> it's Euuch, actually
02:03:32 <alise> if you're still hallu, then i'm confused and will think a lot
02:04:01 <alise> potions may hurt hallu
02:04:09 <alise> since my hallu-healing code hurts
02:04:14 <alise> i'll fix this code now
02:04:19 <pikhq> alise: Y'know, it'd be awesome if artists would release the unmixed tracks from studio sessions.
02:04:30 <pikhq> alise: So that someone who gave a damn could mix it well.
02:04:33 <alise> pikhq: you mean with all the tracks and shit?
02:04:46 <cpressey> alise: I have a suggestion, if you want to hear it, for an additoin
02:04:50 <alise> pikhq: Nine Inch Nails did that with a few tracks from Year Zero but the individual tracks were polished-ish
02:04:55 <alise> cpressey: absolutely
02:04:56 <alise> cpressey: btw, patch:
02:04:59 <alise> if P and L<301:U=min(U+q*3*(U>0),85);P-=q;T()
02:05:06 <alise> obvious which line this modification is to
02:05:09 <alise> cpressey: you mean downstairs?
02:05:12 <pikhq> alise: Yes. Just "here's the entire studio session."
02:05:20 <cpressey> increases an integer l which affects density
02:05:26 <alise> pikhq: was fun to disable random tracks though
02:05:40 <alise> affects density? why?
02:05:41 <cpressey> and also scrambles the playfield (use the intial population funciton whatever it is)
02:05:48 <cpressey> deeper levels have more shit in them
02:05:55 <pikhq> And no, people, it does not go up to 11.
02:06:09 <cpressey> (easy way to make it both harder and more rewarding, at least theoretically)
02:07:24 <pikhq> alise: It'd also be awesome to see raw video being distributed. :P
02:07:33 * pikhq dislikes generation loss.
02:07:48 <alise> cpressey: my "plan" was to have some sort of monetary amount to get into hell or wherever
02:07:58 <alise> cpressey: where killing a monster gives you silly amounts of money compared to $ bags
02:08:01 <alise> so it's pretty much required
02:08:03 <alise> and then you get a fun boss
02:09:45 <alise> cpressey: levels sound good, but increased density = increased risk of being boxed in by walls when you arrive
02:09:47 <alise> and that would suck
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02:12:17 <cpressey> let's see if the improvementsi made ot my bot work
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02:14:25 <cpressey> i just realized, it responds to frigg
02:15:18 <cpressey> mzstorkipiwanbot: help assignment
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02:21:22 <cpressey> i have neat idea with lua has the %b pattern for parsing with regexp nono haha recursive
02:21:59 <alise> cpressey: i couldn't do random teleport
02:22:02 <Gregor> Somehow I managed to screw up FreeCiv enough that every AI wants to be allied with me, to the point where they'll dissolve an alliance because I refuse to go to war with somebody they're at war with, then immediately re-ally with me.
02:22:06 <alise> "random number from 1 to infinity, distributed evenly"
02:22:15 <alise> Gregor: How is that a bad thing?
02:23:36 <cpressey> Gregor: omg u r hax1ng teh freeciv srcs?
02:23:47 <Gregor> I just configured it really weirdly.
02:24:18 <pikhq> Why are there only torrents of '95 on floppy?
02:24:23 <alise> pikhq: Because you t--.
02:24:27 <Gregor> It's especially funny right now because I'm a Republic (my favorite government type), and my senate won't let me go to war with anyone, so even if I wanted to honor my alliances, I can't.
02:24:42 <pikhq> ... And an inexplicable Finnish version on CD, and one that's got 0 seeds.
02:25:05 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, I do so love FreeCiv.
02:25:13 <alise> Gregor: Is the FreeCiv package in Debian okay?
02:25:27 <alise> cpressey: HOW FUN IS VAGRANT EH
02:25:30 <alise> What's your top moneys so far
02:25:47 <cpressey> alise: FUNNESS PER SOURCE CODE BYTE = AWESOME
02:25:57 <alise> cpressey: ABSOLUTE FUNNESS, THOUGH? :P
02:26:02 <Gregor> alise: It's a little bit wtf-is-ipv4-lawl, but otherwise it's all good.
02:26:09 <pikhq> Perhaps I should just fetch the floppies. And go with a tedious, tedious install process.
02:26:14 <alise> Gregor: ...I wasn't planning to play networked
02:26:25 <alise> pikhq: There is some CD that is just all the floppies catted together somehow.
02:26:27 <alise> That one worked for me.
02:26:41 <Gregor> alise: Then 's all A-OK. Also, it's easy enough to do netplay if you call freeciv-server manually rather than from the client.
02:26:42 <alise> Gregor: Do I want freeciv gtk or sdl or what
02:26:57 <Gregor> The SDL client sucks, and not in a good way.
02:27:10 <alise> But playing games made with regular widget toolkits FEELS SO WEIRD.
02:27:13 <pikhq> There's also an AJAX client.
02:27:16 <alise> Do I have to deal with server bullshit if I just want to play?
02:27:16 <cpressey> alise: I AM A FUNNESS-FINITIST. what good mans reach grasp exceed something something
02:27:36 <alise> Gregor: "freeciv-client-xaw3d" Q.E.D.
02:27:38 <pikhq> alise: The GTK client will operate the server as is sane for single-player use.
02:27:55 <pikhq> I suspect the others will as well, but I'm not as familiar with them.
02:28:00 <cpressey> Athena hates MIT for associating her name with that awful widgetkit.
02:28:27 <pikhq> cpressey: Athena is more than just a toolkit, you know.
02:28:31 <alise> oh i thought you said their
02:28:36 <alise> like a company or something
02:28:39 <alise> yeah athena itself is cool
02:28:49 <alise> I reject my assertion
02:29:03 <alise> fun fact, still deployed
02:29:10 <alise> poor MIT people, using GNOME 0.1 or whatever it is
02:29:16 <cpressey> http://animeholicph.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/card-captor-sakura-keroberos.jpg
02:29:55 <Gregor> alise: DOT DOT DOT QUESTION MARK
02:30:09 <alise> cpressey: I can *almost* make that relevant in my head.
02:30:16 <pikhq> Gregor: They have used X11 thin clients at MIT since the 80s.
02:30:48 <pikhq> I think they're still using some of the old, old, old school software on it, too.
02:30:55 <alise> pikhq: Apparently the architecture itself has program binaries themselves being run on NFS-or-something-like-it.
02:31:19 <alise> http://blog.spang.cc/posts/MIT_Athena:_Not_Dead_Yet/
02:31:25 <alise> http://blog.spang.cc/images/clean-athena.png
02:31:27 <alise> Actually GNOME 2.8.
02:32:17 <pikhq> alise: It's... Sun.
02:32:35 <alise> http://hacks.mit.edu/by_year/1989/grumpy_fuzzball/gf_screen_large.gif The login screen (with fuzzball instead of the usual owl, a hack from december 1989)
02:32:44 <pikhq> It's running on SunOS. Not Solaris, SunOS.
02:32:56 <alise> See http://blog.spang.cc/posts/MIT_Athena:_Not_Dead_Yet/.
02:33:08 <alise> "So, what I really just wasted over 600 words prepping for is to say that Athena 10 will be based on Ubuntu." circa 2008
02:33:11 <alise> pikhq: pretty sure that's the machine
02:33:18 <alise> the clients being RHEL
02:33:24 <alise> or maybe the other way around
02:33:28 <cpressey> "Athena 10 will be based on Ubuntu"
02:33:35 <alise> Athena 10 Technical Plan (Page Not Found)
02:33:40 <cpressey> ok now She is pissed i'm pretty sure
02:35:14 <cpressey> a 4x-human-size virgin in armor, with a big-ass spear, bearing down on cambridge as we speak
02:36:15 <alise> cpressey: I like how you decided to mention she's a virgin.
02:36:30 <alise> "Still up for the taking, MIT guys! Just don't do it!"
02:36:35 <cpressey> alise: hey, it was one of the salient features attributed to her
02:36:43 <alise> http://blog.spang.cc/images/clean-athena.png <-- I love how RISC OS the launcher icons at the bottom are.
02:36:56 <cpressey> i guess i forgot the STONEMAKINGGORGONHEADSHIELD, though
02:38:59 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_File_System
02:39:00 <alise> this is what they use
02:39:11 <alise> kerberos-based, who wouldda guessed?!?!?!
02:39:52 <alise> [[The proposed "3M" workstations included a million pixel display and a megabyte of memory, running at a million instructions per second. Unfortunately a fourth M, cost on the order of a megapenny, proved the 3M beyond the reach of students' budgets, so the initial hardware deployment in 1985 established a number of university-owned "clusters" of public workstations in various academic buildings and dorm
02:39:56 <alise> -- Wikipedia, "Andrew Project"
02:42:56 <alise> pikhq: interestingly Athena is accessible from outside MIT...
02:43:05 <alise> the "prime" interface to that is MITnet, which is a dialup link :-)
02:43:08 <alise> (but they have telnet now...)
02:43:09 <cpressey> the mit campus map page is a google maps page with an "MIT" button menu
02:43:19 <pikhq> alise: Does rms still not have a password?
02:43:19 <alise> cpressey: they have a pdf of some sort i think
02:43:25 <alise> pikhq: does rms still have an account?
02:43:26 <cpressey> ....that does NOTHING when clicked
02:43:28 <alise> that is the more pertinent question
02:43:49 <pikhq> alise: Yes. His office is still there, I'm pretty sure.
02:44:19 <alise> pikhq: i forget, did he ever actually graduate
02:44:36 <pikhq> He never *attended* MIT.
02:44:44 <pikhq> He graduated from Harvard and *worked* at MIT.
02:44:47 <cpressey> alise: you get famous, you don't NEED to graduate.
02:44:48 <alise> [[Stallman then enrolled as a graduate student in physics at MIT, but abandoned his graduate studies while remaining a programmer at the MIT AI Laboratory.]]
02:44:58 <alise> grad student, then he gave up and decided to stay
02:44:59 <pikhq> Oh, okay, he did actually enroll there.
02:45:09 <cpressey> alise: you do think sergei and that other guy graduated? they're still on leave
02:45:13 <alise> Stallman abandoned his pursuit of a doctorate in physics in favor of programming.
02:45:13 <alise> While a graduate student at MIT, Stallman published a paper on an AI truth maintenance system called dependency-directed backtracking with Gerald Jay Sussman.[14] This paper was an early work on the problem of intelligent backtracking in constraint satisfaction problems. As of 2003, the technique Stallman and Sussman introduced is still the most general and powerful form of intelligent backtracking.[15]
02:45:13 <alise> The technique of constraint recording, wherein partial results of a search are recorded for later reuse, was also introduced in this paper.[15]
02:45:13 <pikhq> He's still a research affiliate.
02:45:18 <alise> cpressey: shaddap :)
02:45:20 <alise> pikhq: well, you know what?
02:45:23 <alise> there is an easy way to find out
02:45:35 <alise> http://adminsr.com/blog/?p=201
02:45:59 <cpressey> and MIT dungeon doesn't even contain a dungeon to speak of
02:46:00 <alise> Permission denied (publickey,gssapi-keyex,gssapi-with-mic,keyboard-interactive).
02:46:11 <cpressey> pretty sure the name is a nod to dungeons and dragons instead
02:46:28 <alise> pikhq: okay that works with the kerberos login
02:46:32 <alise> I VERY MUCH doubt rms has a kerberos login
02:46:34 <alise> at least an active one
02:47:08 <Gregor> THE FIRIEST PITS OF HELL
02:47:19 <alise> cpressey: gary gygax's anus
02:47:45 <alise> nowhere particular
02:48:16 <alise> cpressey: (3+sqrt(2)i, pi+sqrt(0)^sqrt(a bit of abcesses) + not i, that other one... a one who's name i have forgotten)
02:48:45 <cpressey> alise: i no care if you have low opinion of it -- as a sociaL shift of sorts, d&d is significant
02:48:56 <alise> pikhq: stallman has like fifty honorary doctorates
02:48:57 <alise> and professorships
02:49:05 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Recognition
02:49:16 <alise> cpressey: did i ever say i had a low opinion of it
02:49:20 <alise> i've never even played d&d
02:49:26 <alise> i think cpressey is drunk again
02:50:47 -!- jomjome has left (?).
02:52:09 <alise> i'd love to play around with an athena box, just to see how fucked up it is
02:52:18 <alise> i could put all sorts of Athena-virgin related puns here, but i won't
02:53:45 <cpressey> alise: btw: J R R Tolkein. Discuss.
02:54:39 <cpressey> i've never read his books, myself.
02:54:43 <alise> cpressey: a man. he said too little with too much and was a racist. despite that,
02:54:49 <alise> i still feel like i should read the lord of the rings.
02:55:16 <alise> i have read the beginning of /The Fellowship.../. it was far too verbose.
02:55:19 <alise> i'm sure i could get used to it.
02:55:43 <alise> if i wanted to read something really long, there are like fifty things above it on my list :)
02:55:49 <cpressey> they tried to have us read /The Hobbit/ in 7th grade English class. Then we stopped. I usually assume someone's parents complained about SATANISM IN THE SCHOOLS.
02:55:55 <alise> i liked the films. of course they must be terrible adaptions.
02:55:57 <alise> but they're still good.
02:56:28 <alise> i think in today's world where fantasy is so... laughable, and with the canon of the films in my head, it'd be hard to take things seriously
02:56:59 <alise> cpressey: speaking of things made up of a lot of words, have you read Infinite Jest? I mean to sometime.
02:57:02 <cpressey> and then there's C S Lewis. I have read his significant stuff.
02:57:42 <alise> C. S. Lewis was a writer of Christian propaganda posing as bad children's fantasy.
02:58:01 <cpressey> ooh Quebec Seperatism, just like Beautiful Losers. <*exasperated sound*>
02:58:01 <Gregor> (The best kind of propaganda)
02:58:05 <alise> i read all the narnia books when i was younger. i think i kept going because i knew they were meant to be *so* *great*
02:58:14 <alise> then they all died and went to heaven with jesus the lion
02:58:19 <alise> and ... they were not great, after all, in the end.
02:58:28 <cpressey> alise: in a wonderful wonderful train accident
02:58:38 <alise> i like to imagine their mangled limbs.
02:58:53 <Gregor> `addquote <alise> i like to imagine their mangled limbs.
02:58:56 <alise> ...ranks high up the list of Stupid Things to Say After Coming Out of a Mental Institution
02:58:57 <cpressey> yes. kind of twisted. also, santa clause gave them swords and armor and shit in the first book.
02:58:58 <HackEgo> 237|<alise> i like to imagine their mangled limbs.
02:59:55 <alise> cpressey: Gravity's Rainbow! also made out of a lot of words. have you read it? i have not.
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03:00:07 <alise> GUYS, BOOKS ARE MADE OUT OF WORDS, SOMETIMES A LOT OF THEM, WHAT IS THAT?
03:00:17 <cpressey> alise: I want to. ++ because Pat Benetar made an album with that name.
03:00:56 <cpressey> Damn, so much I haven't read yet!
03:01:02 <alise> made out of WAY TOO MANY WORDS
03:01:05 <alise> i also haven't read it
03:01:11 <alise> I HAVE READ SURPRISINGLY LITTLE THINGS THAT I SHOULD HAVE
03:01:17 <cpressey> I fread Dante's Inferno, and Neechy's A.S.Z., this summer, so that's something.
03:01:42 <alise> "Despite these obstacles, readers and commentators have reached a broad consensus about the book's central cast of characters and, to a lesser degree, its plot."
03:01:47 <alise> well, we know who the characters are!
03:02:04 <cpressey> Hm, also I have seen the Catch-22 film, but not read the book. Also,
03:02:34 <cpressey> well, it has its cult following, who knows if it's *actually* good.
03:02:43 <cpressey> I mean, SIASL has it's cult following too.
03:02:52 <cpressey> And when I was a teenager, I was all, "Wow! Grok! Heh"
03:02:54 <alise> vonnegut is cool. would like to read. haven't. hmph
03:03:00 <alise> apparently the catch-22 book is good, sez friend
03:03:17 <alise> Welcome to the home of the Southern Illinois Adult Soccer League (SIASL). We are the only coed adult soccer league in the Marion/Carbondale area.
03:03:40 <cpressey> I love internet acronym pollution
03:03:50 <alise> i like heinlein a bit... but not too much
03:04:04 <alise> the fine line between something and libertarianism
03:04:07 <cpressey> Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert Heinlein, Michael Valentine Smith, Water Brother, Grok
03:04:26 <alise> he coined grok, if you didn't know
03:04:44 <cpressey> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
03:05:31 <alise> it's become assimilated since the 60s dude :P
03:05:46 <cpressey> and completely watered down, was my only point
03:06:28 <cpressey> Hm, what else of good books? ...
03:07:43 <cpressey> Oh - A Clockwork Orange -- the book is very good -- you can tell it was written by a composer
03:08:11 <cpressey> Logan's Run -- the movie is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better than the book -- the book is incompreh. and pretent.
03:08:59 <cpressey> So, watch Logan's Run and read A Clockwork Orange, NOT the other way round
03:10:04 <cpressey> "Waldo" by Robert Heinlein and "A Logic Named Joe" by.... uh... Murray Leinster
03:10:48 <cpressey> Amelie, actually, was very good
03:11:10 <cpressey> TRON, the original. I refuse to participate in any remake hype
03:11:34 <cpressey> "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" predates the Matrix by, I dunno, 2 decades
03:11:49 <alise> -- err didn't notice any of this
03:11:58 <alise> i don't mind incompreh. and pretent. :)
03:12:16 <cpressey> Gregor: yeah. it's like, watch the movie AND read the book, for that one, to get the whole picture
03:12:27 <Gregor> cpressey: In the opposite order though.
03:12:30 <cpressey> even though the book and the movie are set in the orbit of different fuckin planets
03:12:33 <alise> cpressey: scifi! always the destination when you run out of GOOD books
03:13:39 <cpressey> alise: you don't mind slogging through works that are incomprehensible and pretentious? OR you don't mind me making abbrevs. for those wo.?
03:13:53 <alise> as long as they're amusing in some way
03:14:12 <cpressey> (Which is the Wooster thing. Also, Wodehouse is cool. Like Douglas Adams of the 20's. Anyway)
03:14:44 <cpressey> alise: I really can't recommend the Logan's Run book. But, you know, I guess, I managed to finish it, unlike say Millenium
03:14:51 <cpressey> Movies are so much easier to finish
03:15:12 <alise> i mean everything else
03:15:28 <cpressey> Asimov: short stories. The whole Foundation thing? Interesting idea but I CANNOT READ THAT MUCH EXTRAPOLATING THAT IDEA.
03:16:00 <cpressey> Again, I must say: A Logic Named Joe. That is a beautiful story. By an almost unknown author.
03:16:24 <alise> stanislaw lem, i want to read Solaris, just haven't got around to it! mrf!
03:16:27 <cpressey> I read it for the first time, on a plane, while I was on my way to an internship at a large dotcom search engine company.
03:16:29 <alise> The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect, of course
03:16:32 <alise> (if you can stomach it)
03:16:40 <cpressey> So it was kind of hyperappropriate
03:17:04 <alise> cpressey: http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/mopiidx.html
03:17:04 <cpressey> Intriguing, although not sure what to make of it
03:17:09 <alise> it is good (and not very long)
03:17:20 <cpressey> OH HA HELLO AGAIN KURO5HIN ARE YOU STILL AROUND HA
03:17:22 <alise> but, uh, yeah, there's sort of zombie rape-torture in the first chapter
03:17:28 <alise> it does serve a plot-relevant purpose, but, you know
03:17:31 <alise> you still have to read it
03:17:43 <alise> cpressey: well it was published on kuro5hin in 2002
03:17:45 <cpressey> if i'm not mistaken that's some kind of amplifier
03:17:49 <alise> so when it was actually any good :)
03:17:54 <alise> cpressey: it's meant to look like a moth
03:18:11 <alise> evidence: "mopimoth.gif" and he calls it the moth graphic or something on another page of the site
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03:20:51 <alise> cpressey: oh and everything Sam Hughes has ever written
03:21:55 <alise> cpressey: qntm.org
03:22:02 <alise> you may know him for How to Destroy the Earth
03:22:15 <alise> his two novels are the Ed stories and Fine Structure
03:22:23 <alise> i have read the former twice and am in the stalled process of reading the latter
03:22:41 <cpressey> i know him from his blog posts rather than his fiction
03:23:06 <alise> but his blog posts are just about drinking to excess according to various rules about which drinking establishments you go to!
03:24:23 <cpressey> are they? i thought they were about random inconsquential CS theory shit
03:41:07 <pikhq> GOD DAMMIT WINDOWS THE DISK IS IN THE FUCKING DRIVE STOP SUCKING
03:55:44 <HackEgo> genius \ late 14c., from L. genius "guardian deity or spirit which watches over each person from birth; spirit, incarnation, wit, talent," from root of gignere "beget, produce" (see kin), from PIE base *gen- "produce." Meaning "person of natural intelligence or talent" first recorded 1640s. \ \ genial \ 1560s, from
03:56:04 <HackEgo> hack (1) \ in O.E. tohaccian "hack to pieces," from W.Gmc. *khak- (cf. O.Fris. hackia, Du. hakken, O.H.G. hacchon), perhaps infl. by O.N. hggva "to hack, hew," from PIE *kau- "to hew, strike." Sense of "short, dry cough" is 1802. Noun meaning "an act of hacking" is from 1836; fig. sense of "a try, an attempt" is first attested
04:07:18 <pikhq> alise: Okay, it seems what the problem is is that the Windows installer *sometimes forgets to install half the network stack*.
04:08:39 <alise> pikhq: I think it's rather that it's not on the CD.
04:08:41 <alise> I couldn't get it to install.
04:08:56 <pikhq> alise: I've had the same problem with two different install media.
04:09:08 <pikhq> alise: And it apparently *just happens on some systems*.
04:09:32 <pikhq> Yes, Windows 95 has a braindead installer bug.
04:14:54 <pikhq> Whoa. There are plants that do not need sunlight at all.
04:15:21 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0a/Indian_pipe_PDB.JPG Yes, that is a *plant*.
04:18:13 <cpressey> "i'm a plant, but the whole plant schtick, no, i don't play that way."
04:18:50 <pikhq> It's parasitic upon the mycorrhiza in the roots of a nearby tree.
04:24:23 <alise> GAME THEORY ADMIRAL: http://imgur.com/oYeTa.jpg
04:25:29 <Gregor> Vorpal, cpressey, whoever: http://codu.org/tmp/zee1-2010-10-08.ogg zee1, now with FLAVOR!
04:26:31 <pikhq> Gregor: Insufficiently FLAC
04:27:41 <pikhq> Also, have you considered going back in time and doing some NES composition?
04:27:51 <Gregor> Uploading a FLACcid one will take a while :P
04:28:01 <Gregor> My time machine is broken.
04:28:16 <pikhq> Well, you can still do chip tunes.
04:28:56 <pikhq> Especially for the NES or SNES; their sound chips are emulated as accurately as is possible.
04:29:43 <Gregor> Yeah, well I only want to do chip tunes for the MSX, NeoGeo and Sega Saturn!
04:30:08 <pikhq> MSX and NeoGeo ought to be feasible.
04:30:14 <pikhq> But does anybody even *care* about the Saturn?
04:30:35 <Gregor> Did anyone own a Saturn? :P
04:30:36 <cpressey> Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
04:30:44 <cpressey> Gregor: I SAW A LOT OF COMMERCIALS
04:30:44 <Gregor> I think they sold about four :P
04:30:52 <pikhq> Oh, it was apparently popular in Japan.
04:30:59 <pikhq> It came out in '94.
04:31:19 <pikhq> And released a bit before the Playstation.
04:31:32 <Gregor> I'll write chiptunes for the Sega 32X.
04:31:36 <cpressey> Playstation, very arguably, won.
04:31:57 <pikhq> cpressey: Not "arguably".
04:32:27 <Gregor> I'm sure you can find some property by which Playstation didn't win :P
04:32:29 <pikhq> The Playstation was the first console to sell 100 million units.
04:32:57 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, it didn't win against the Playstation 2.
04:33:32 <pikhq> Best-selling console ever, and it's *still selling*. Jeeze.
04:33:41 <cpressey> I have good memories of the Playstation [1], actually.
04:34:00 <pikhq> The PS1 had many a good game. Though much of it has aged rather poorly.
04:34:15 <Gregor> pikhq: "Still selling" isn't much of a statement, really.
04:34:18 <Gregor> pikhq: The Genesis is still selling in some markets.
04:34:18 <pikhq> (unlike SNES games, for instance, which I could believe came out *yesterday*)
04:34:20 <cpressey> Tomb Raider 2. Cool Boarders 2. Twisted Metal 2.
04:34:44 <Gregor> Only sequels are good :P
04:34:52 <pikhq> Gregor: Until last year it was outselling all other home consoles, IIRC.
04:35:11 <cpressey> The sequal to Parappa sucked, but otherwise, I agree: there is a Version Two Phenomenon at play.
04:35:18 <pikhq> Or maybe year before that. Anyways. It's still absurd.
04:35:28 <Gregor> cpressey: The sequel to Parappa the Rapper? You mean DDR?
04:35:34 <cpressey> Well, "sucked" is too hard, but. Not as good.
04:35:42 <cpressey> Gregor: no, IIRC there was a Parappa 2.
04:35:43 <Gregor> pikhq: Here, have your FLACcid zee1: http://codu.org/tmp/zee1-2010-10-08.flac
04:35:45 <pikhq> Gregor: It's still selling well in pretty much all markets, though.
04:35:49 <Gregor> cpressey: HELLO WELCOME TO JOKES
04:36:43 <pikhq> Kinda amazing the Genesis is still being made, though.
04:38:23 * cpressey 's alcohol-infused brain struggles to process this
04:40:15 <cpressey> I am so out of touch with the console world, it seems.
04:40:31 <pikhq> You can go into a store and purchase a Sega Genesis.
04:40:45 <pikhq> (well, you'll have to hunt in the US; it's sold domestically, but not commonly.)
04:41:11 <alise> <pikhq> Kinda amazing the Genesis is still being made, though.
04:41:26 <pikhq> alise: You can go out and buy a BRAND NEW Sega Genesis.
04:41:36 <alise> pikhq: it feels like i'm high, am i high?
04:41:44 <alise> just thought of Rocket Man, so yes, yes I am
04:41:52 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/af/GenesisFirecore.JPG You can find this in stores right now.
04:41:52 <alise> Sega Genesis, a video game console
04:41:52 <alise> Genesis (magazine), a pornographic magazine
04:42:10 <alise> supposition...tory
04:42:26 <alise> pikhq: psht, FIRECORE
04:42:29 <alise> i want ... water...core
04:42:39 <pikhq> Incompatible with the Sega CD, Sega 32X, and the Power Base Converter, but *it's a freaking brand new Sega Genesis*.
04:44:11 <pikhq> Such a shame they stopped making the SNES 7 years ago.
04:44:31 <alise> i am hallucinating your words
04:44:35 <alise> what is the number that looks like 7 here
04:44:55 <alise> well more like eleven here
04:45:15 <pikhq> That same year they stopped making the NES.
04:45:16 <alise> anyone ever use a nes emulator called nesticle?
04:45:23 <pikhq> alise: Nesticle sucks ass.
04:45:34 <alise> will always stick in my memory
04:45:40 <alise> THE BLOOD oh the blood
04:45:47 <cpressey> i also tried something called "DarcNES"
04:46:09 <alise> find your inner hobbitnes with HobbitNES
04:46:25 <alise> pikhq: SU PER FA MICOM
04:46:43 <cpressey> picked up at the SPCA thrift store
04:46:54 <cpressey> played a friend's supernes cart
04:47:31 <cpressey> i also picked up a... something too fucking obscure for me to remember
04:48:11 <cpressey> geez, it was like an Oddessy^2 in its obscurity, what was it?
04:48:51 <cpressey> i think it had "system" in its name
04:49:36 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_console goddamn WP I hate you I love you
04:50:16 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TurboGrafx-16 HOLY FUCKING OBSCURE.
04:50:36 <cpressey> "PC Enginge" is even less obscure, and that was the Japanese version
04:50:51 <Gregor> Vorpal, cpressey, pikhq, whoever: http://codu.org/tmp/zee5-2010-10-08.ogg zee5, now with FLAVOR!
04:51:53 <cpressey> zee5, now with gnarly visualization, presumably because ubuntu has decided firefox should do that now ok
04:57:06 <cpressey> "Mattel Electronics sold the rights for its Intellivision system to the INTV Corporation, who continued to produce Intellivision consoles and develop new games for the Intellivision until 1991."
04:58:38 <alise> first minute anyway
04:59:14 <cpressey> have downloaded, still trying to play in a way that doesn't gefuck my system
04:59:58 <alise> WHY NOT CAPSLOCK ALWAYS
05:00:24 <Gregor> CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE-CONTROL FOR COOL
05:00:29 <cpressey> CRASH BANDICOOT, SPYRO THE DRAGON
05:02:24 <cpressey> i always liked this one anyway
05:02:43 <alise> oh that fixclip thing may not be the one that comes with audacity w/e
05:02:55 <alise> Gregor: what was it pre-flavour? soundfont?
05:03:17 <Gregor> alise: The only difference is adjusted volumes and panning.
05:03:28 <Gregor> Just makes it feel more ... complete.
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05:04:01 <alise> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2391 for tomorrow
05:04:57 <alise> "yes y|" useless use of yes' argument award
05:05:02 <alise> yes(1)'s, whatever
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05:06:08 <cpressey> I shall make concessions to the sucky OS, and in doing so, shall be considered cool
05:07:02 <alise> it's about hardware, not the os
05:07:23 <cpressey> I shall make concesions to the sucky hardware, then!
05:07:48 <alise> these issues are pretty fundamental
05:08:01 <alise> you're just looking for something to complain about :)
05:08:39 <cpressey> My interests do lie elsewhere, though
05:08:41 <Gregor> pikhq: http://codu.org/tmp/zee5-2010-10-08.flac zee5, now with IMPOTENCE!
05:09:44 <cpressey> alise: As I've mentioned before: give me an OS that will send my process a signal "I'm about to page you out! Is there any memory you could do without?" -- then let's talk
05:09:58 <cpressey> I know of no such OS currently
05:10:27 <cpressey> cooperation between different levels of the hierarchy is fucking almost nonexistent
05:11:23 <cpressey> jesus, Windows 7 and the CD-ROM... no, let's not even go there. I guess I should just be happy that the audio isn't done with A WIRE TO THE SOUND CARD anymore.
05:11:51 <cpressey> hey, zee5 is looping and i'm not even noticing
05:12:07 <Gregor> cpressey: ... really? What player do you have that loops seemlessly without asking it? :P
05:12:31 <cpressey> Gregor: um... "Totem Movie Player" apparently
05:15:50 <cpressey> Also, Eightebed, IE8, etc has made me think about how memory leaking is pretty much unvoidable (not that I"m giving up -- just re-contextualizing the problem -- you cannot trust programmers to get anything right, I'm afraid.)
05:16:12 <Gregor> Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarbage colleeeeeeeeection :P
05:16:12 <cpressey> Many many Java programs have shit memory management characteristics, GC or no GC.
05:16:23 <cpressey> Gregor: it's not enough, sadly.
05:16:33 <cpressey> I GFORGOT TO WEAK MAH POINTERS FUCK
05:16:37 <Gregor> Fair enough, you have to have non-stupid programmers too.
05:16:45 <Gregor> Or, solve the problem by buying more memory.
05:16:52 <Gregor> That's worked for CPU's 'til 2008 ;)
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05:17:07 <cpressey> Gregor: I used to HATE that thought. Now... well I still do but... fuck, I dunno.
05:17:37 <Gregor> Put your brainpower into the more useful problem of programming models for parallelism that aren't totally unusable.
05:17:52 <cpressey> I also still grit my teeth at the sound of the phrase "Boehm conservative collector", but...
05:18:45 <alise> Gregor: what happened in 2008?
05:18:55 <cpressey> The childish, innocent part of me keeping wispering "program proving, chris... it's not just a pipe dream of dijsktra's, you know..."
05:19:26 <cpressey> If we had feasible, workaday tools for proving, like we do for unit tests...
05:19:36 <Gregor> alise: I'm approximating the point where all energy started going into making more cores, rather than faster CPUs.
05:19:59 <cpressey> Good god, but programmers would have to *reason*. Well, argh, they *do*, kinda, but, also SO NO.
05:20:27 <alise> this 1.33ghz proc is zippy
05:20:29 <Gregor> Not "the first little bits"
05:21:11 <cpressey> I had a prof, around 2008, who was very smart about the whole Moore's Law thing.
05:21:34 <cpressey> Moore's Law is something you see when your technology hasn't come near the limit of its potential yet.
05:22:02 <cpressey> The mid-oughts is where we started to see silicon IC technology come near the limit of its potential.
05:22:22 <cpressey> So all the effort started going towards "How can we parallelize"
05:22:24 <Gregor> And then we're all fucked.
05:22:56 <cpressey> "How can we parallelize?" as a research question, is prit' near ISOMORPHIC to "Is P = NP?"
05:24:09 <cpressey> oerjan: Oh fine, bring Nick into this :)
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05:24:28 <oerjan> (still an incredibly hard, unsolved problem, of course)
05:24:51 <cpressey> I attended the university he was a Prof at for a long part of his career, but was too late -- he moved to some uni in the US by the time I was there.
05:25:12 <cpressey> When I was there, there was almost *no one* there in theory or languages, in seriousness.
05:25:47 <cpressey> Still, a few good people, in other areas (AI and uh... hardware theory, I gues you could say.)
05:26:07 * oerjan is following lipton's blog and occasionally balks at the custom of calling TCS simply "theory"
05:26:38 <oerjan> in his last post, he even used it to _contrast_ with mathematics
05:30:05 <cpressey> oerjan: I'm not sure I'd agree with the P=NC characterization of "the parallelization agenda", *but*, maybe. I don't know enough about NC.
05:31:48 <cpressey> at any rate: http://www.hotchips.org/archives/hc21/2_mon/HC21.24.300.ParallelComputingCenters-Epub/HC21.24.310.Patterson-UCB-ParLab.pdf
05:32:24 <cpressey> that is (not exactly, but close to) the paper the smart HW/CS prof had us read in my "advanced computer architecture" class, around 2008
05:33:40 <cpressey> i keep thinking, sadly, that there is no real solution.
05:33:48 <cpressey> if your problem is parallelizable: great!
05:34:09 <oerjan> ...and that triggered an Adobe Reader update.
05:34:40 <cpressey> wish I could find the actual *paper* instead of presentations based on it
05:35:25 <cpressey> About the same time, "Fortress" was hot, too
05:35:36 <cpressey> My god! This is only 2.5 years later, really
05:35:57 <cpressey> It already seems like another internet generation has gone by
05:36:15 <cpressey> Hm, but I'm still using the same chat protocol I used in 1995!
05:38:04 <cpressey> I thought teh futar might be in photonics, but, apparently not, because they still require coherent light (lasers), which require quite a bit of power.
05:38:21 <cpressey> If they could be done with sunlight...
05:38:49 <cpressey> (still listening to zee5, looping!)
05:38:59 <oerjan> graphene will save us all! AUM!
05:39:34 <cpressey> "Not to be confused with Grapheme." ty, wp
05:39:52 <oerjan> iirc there is also graphane
05:39:59 <cpressey> wait that's just... a graphite sheet
05:41:45 <oerjan> cpressey: and the star of this year's nobel prize in physics
05:42:15 <cpressey> "In 2008 graphene produced by exfoliation was one of the most expensive materials on Earth, with a sample that can be placed at the cross section of a human hair costing more than $1,000 as of April 2008 (about $100,000,000/cm2).[10] Since then, exfoliation procedures have been scaled up, and now companies sell graphene by the ton.[16]"
05:42:55 <cpressey> "oh, you WANT this? well, let's start making it"
05:43:06 <pikhq> There is such a thing is a digital speaker. There is seriously such a thing as a digital speaker.
05:43:12 <cpressey> and suddenly, you can afford it
05:43:26 <cpressey> pikhq: digital in... what sense?
05:43:34 <augur> hows life in the esosphere, peeps
05:43:40 <augur> anything interesting going on lately
05:44:01 <pikhq> Each bit of the digital audio drives a seperate speaker. The LSB drives a very small one, and the size of speakers doubles for each next bit.
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05:45:19 <pikhq> For 16-bit audio reproduction, you need 16 seperate speakers... Starting with a 0.5 cm² driver would mean you would need a 3.2m² speaker system per channel.
05:45:42 <pikhq> Somewhat impractical, sure, but hey.
05:45:47 <cpressey> pikhq: but i would bet the fidelity is totally worth it.
05:45:51 <pikhq> It's a digital speaker, and the term digital actually applies.
05:46:04 <cpressey> well, maybe not. but... well, i dunno.
05:46:36 <cpressey> no, i am guessing it would be.
05:47:13 <oerjan> wouldn't that put a lot of stress on the highest bit speaker
05:47:19 <cpressey> driving all kinds of frequencies through 2 or 3 speakers, versus 16, each taking care of a relatively small slice
05:47:46 <pikhq> oerjan: Not really. Each speaker takes a different *volume*, not frequency.
05:47:55 <Gregor> pikhq: If ... whoah ... if ... omg ...
05:48:07 <pikhq> Which is why you double the size of the speakers as you go up.
05:48:12 <Gregor> pikhq: If you actually did that, then moved those speakers away from each other.
05:48:21 <cpressey> hey, maybe the world IS still going.
05:48:26 <pikhq> The only problem is that they need to run ultrasonically to avoid introducing *audible* artifacts.
05:48:27 <oerjan> pikhq: well yeah but it would have to change _very_ fast every time the total volume passed the 2^15 mark
05:48:32 <cpressey> (you see, i had half given up by now)
05:48:38 <pikhq> Oh, and they're expensive.
05:49:07 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, as a function of the audio frequency.
05:49:32 <oerjan> i guess if they make them they have to work
05:50:26 <cpressey> oerjan: uh well. for physical objects, yes
05:50:57 <cpressey> (i imagine the 2^16TWEETER is very small and delicate)
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05:52:44 <cpressey> the "if they made it, it has to work" does not in any way apply to processes that people come up with
05:52:50 <cpressey> because OMG THE PAIN, you have NO IDEA
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05:55:36 <oerjan> nonsense! now just let me finish this vacuum energy extractor and coffee maker i've designed.
05:55:50 <oerjan> (note: not actually the case)
05:57:31 <cpressey> err well "business" or "logistics" or "engineering" processes, anyway.
05:59:24 <cpressey> "Idea: Dynamically generate source code in C within the context of a Python or Ruby interpreter, allowing app to be written using Python or Ruby abstractions but automatically generating, compiling C at runtime"
06:00:19 <cpressey> ok um internet generation span might be shrinking below ambitious-project-comes-to-fruition threshhold, danger will robinson
06:00:55 <cpressey> ack "Day changed to 09 Oct 2010"
06:01:13 <cpressey> now everything i've just said is YESTERDAY'S NEWS
06:02:41 <cpressey> ack, and i was going to work on my BOT tonight, too.
06:04:08 <pikhq> cpressey: I especially like the U+F06F.
06:06:22 <cpressey> pikhq: ??? http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/f06f/fontsupport.htm Each one of those fonts renders it differently!
06:08:00 <cpressey> "U+F06F is not a valid unicode character"
06:08:37 <Gregor> Life is good within the BMP.
06:09:08 <Gregor> If you leave the BMP, life is bad and they hate humens because they're from outer space and science.
06:09:55 <cpressey> Gregor: I take it you are *not* talking about Window BitMaPs.
06:09:58 <pikhq> Gregor: You must be a language implementor.
06:10:20 <pikhq> (most high-level languages for GOD KNOWS WHAT REASON handle UTF-8. But only the BMP.)
06:10:36 <pikhq> (Or, more bizarre, UTF-8. But with the UTF-16 surrogates. WHY GOD WHY)
06:11:22 <cpressey> pikhq: I do not understand any of it, except that you can sometimes bribe programs into making pretty symbols.
06:11:45 <pikhq> cpressey: Educate yourself on Unicode.
06:12:20 <pikhq> cpressey: And when you start thinking it seems slightly complex, educate yourself on the other character encoding standards.
06:12:43 <cpressey> pikhq: What's there to learn? I mean... no, I don't know what I mean.
06:12:49 <pikhq> At this point, I will be required to keep you away from weaponry for a few weeks, because you will be liable to wipe off a few nations.
06:13:36 <cpressey> Well see -- I am sort of preemptively at the point of "ooh, that ==> me ==> weaponry; best to go around it on tiptoe."
06:13:41 <Gregor> pikhq: Shall I point out the fact that Unicode is not a character encoding standard? :P
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06:14:12 <pikhq> Gregor: The Unicode Standard actually includes character encoding schemes. The Unicode Transformation Formats.
06:14:27 <Gregor> Nobody uses "Unicode" to mean UTF!
06:14:47 <pikhq> Except sometimes the set of UTFs.
06:15:09 <cpressey> I know that (sigh. SIGH.) Python is fairly painless about "Hey! You said <gnarly symbol> in the program. You get <gnarly symbol> in memory (let's pretend, anyway.) And you get <gnarly symbol> on output. If you've set the env var correctly. And you're running a sophisticated enough terminal. So! That's that."
06:15:37 <pikhq> cpressey: Python fucks up its Unicode support outside of the BMP.
06:15:56 <cpressey> pikhq: perhaps I could downgrade "fairly" to "tolerably".
06:16:02 <Gregor> I wonder if the BMP-dependence has something to do with support for non-Unicode character sets ...
06:16:16 <cpressey> Ruby. (actually, i don't know how well Ruby does it.)(
06:16:59 <cpressey> Haskell: there is a UTF library which, my impression was, is tolerable, if you have it installed, dear god the packaging system well anyway
06:17:17 <pikhq> cpressey: GHC 6.12 has it "just work".
06:17:28 <oerjan> !haskell maxBound :: Char
06:17:35 * Rugxulo doesn't know what you're all talking about
06:17:43 <cpressey> pikhq: ah, I am currently at 6.8.something.
06:17:55 <pikhq> Before that, it used Unicode strings internally but its IO routines assumed Windows-1252.
06:18:27 <pikhq> Gregor: Actually, the BMP-dependence has something to do with broken handling of UTF-16.
06:18:52 <oerjan> Gregor: dead as a doornail
06:18:54 <pikhq> Gregor: They use UTF-16 internally. And then go on to assume that 2 octets = 1 Unicode codepoint.
06:18:56 <Gregor> Patience, it's creaky :P
06:19:10 <Gregor> pikhq: Ohhhhhhh. Of course. So stupid.
06:19:12 <pikhq> Gregor: Which is absolutely completely and utterly wrong.
06:19:16 <cpressey> codu.org = 386 DLX with 16M RAM
06:19:26 <Gregor> cpressey: Don't I wish
06:19:32 <Gregor> Money doesn't grow on trees!
06:20:20 <oerjan> the aztecs had it _so_ much easier with money
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06:20:50 <oerjan> Gregor: DEAD AS A DOORNAIL, I SAID
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06:21:01 <oerjan> !haskell maxBound :: Char
06:21:06 <pikhq> Oh, and Java uses "Modified UTF-8". Which is UTF-8 with *surrogate pairs* and encodes U+0 as 0xC0 0x80.
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06:21:41 <pikhq> For *external data*.
06:21:53 <pikhq> Surrogate pairs. WHY OH WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT YOU MORONS
06:22:37 <pikhq> I'm going to blame whoever invented surrogate pairs instead of just deprecating UCS-2, mmkay?
06:23:07 <Gregor> codu.org solves all problems.
06:23:18 <Rugxulo> wait, I thought UTF-16 *was* two bytes per code point o_O
06:23:46 <pikhq> Rugxulo: NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO AND DID I MENTION NO
06:23:46 <Gregor> Rugxulo: It is within the BMP, but Unicode extends up to ... 21 bits?
06:23:47 <Rugxulo> what exactly are you arguing about, inferior Unicode support for various languages??
06:24:07 <pikhq> Rugxulo: UTF-16 is two or four bytes per code point.
06:24:32 <Rugxulo> hmmm, I am confused, there are too many variants
06:24:49 <cpressey> HOT DAMN. The midwest is the birthplace of Dungeons & Dragons. Gary Gygax was born in Chicago and lived in Lake Geneva, WI, most of his life.
06:24:56 <Gregor> UCS-4 is "write out 32-bit integers"
06:24:59 <pikhq> UCS-4, AKA UTF-32, is 4 bytes per code point. Always.
06:25:16 <Gregor> UCS-4 could also be called int * :P
06:25:19 <Rugxulo> heh, this is so boringly technical ... seriously, guys, do any of you even speak / write any languages outside of the BMP ???
06:25:42 <Gregor> I don't speak/write any languages outside of ASCII.
06:25:43 <pikhq> Rugxulo: はい、日本語で話す。
06:25:55 <pikhq> Gregor: Dude, English doesn't fit in ASCII.
06:25:59 <Rugxulo> doesn't count if you don't know what it means ;-)
06:26:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Naïve simpleton.
06:26:12 <Gregor> pikhq: I don't use diaeresis marks or ligatures!
06:26:26 <Gregor> Everyone on #esoteric ! Including me.
06:26:27 <Rugxulo> besides, I think "naive" is a French loan word
06:26:39 <Gregor> So? It still has a diaeresis mark.
06:26:44 <Rugxulo> nope, Befunge-93 is blissfully ignorant of non-ASCII ;-)
06:26:49 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Yeah, but the diaeresis is due to English orthography.
06:26:55 <pikhq> Rugxulo: I speak Japanese. CJK is most of the excuse for Unicode. :)
06:27:31 <Gregor> "Naive" is pronounced like "knave", "naïve" is pronounced like, well, "naïve"
06:27:35 <Rugxulo> pikhq, so what's the problem? Python, Perl, Java etc. all suck?
06:27:51 <Rugxulo> no, knave is pronounced like knave ;-)
06:27:56 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Java is at least handling Unicode, just in a somewhat stupid format.
06:28:00 <Rugxulo> naive is commonly spelled without special diacritics
06:28:14 <Gregor> Rugxulo: I'm being a sarcastic nitwit :P
06:28:24 <Rugxulo> esp. 'cause no dern Americans, dang it, give a crap ;-)
06:28:33 <pikhq> Python is just *fucking retarded*.
06:29:52 <cpressey> pikhq: In its Unicode handling only, or does that extend to, say, its approach to variable scoping? :D
06:30:05 <pikhq> cpressey: I make no judgements about the rest of it ATM.
06:30:26 <Gregor> Its variable scoping couldn't be worse than LISP Classique, BASIC or shell.
06:30:36 <pikhq> But its handling of Unicode is more braindead than 30 year old UNIX programs that are perfectly happy so long as the string ends with 0x00.
06:31:15 <cpressey> u'' is just another crazy "hope it works" thing to throw on the fire, along with '', "", r'', r"", """""", r""""""
06:31:34 <Gregor> Actually PHP's handling of Unicode is pretty pragmatic. In that it's exactly as supportive of Unicode as C is: You get bytes, and if you want those to be in a format, you do that yourself.
06:31:59 <cpressey> and apparently Guido took a year to put Unicode into the language. A year.
06:31:59 <Gregor> (Where "yourself" really means "with libraries")
06:32:25 <Rugxulo> 2.0 was the first with Unicode, and that was ages ago (right?)
06:33:12 <Rugxulo> even 2.x is only guaranteed to be maintained for a few years (until 3.x kicks in ... though no mainstream Linux includes it yet, AFAIR)
06:33:45 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Gentoo has both 2.x and 3.x installed side-by-side.
06:33:52 <Gregor> s/includes it/includes it as \/usr\/bin\/python/
06:34:12 <pikhq> Gregor: Not by default, no.
06:34:20 <cpressey> "This Unicode module provides Unicode::String and Unicode::Character implemented by pure ruby based on iconv."
06:34:27 <cpressey> I see something like that -> I worry.
06:34:46 <pikhq> Gregor: BTW: s|includes it|includes it as /usr/bin/python| you can use any delimiter.
06:34:59 <Gregor> pikhq: Using delimiters other than / is for PUSSIES.
06:35:08 <pikhq> cpressey: "based on iconv" is hopeful.
06:35:14 <Rugxulo> heheheh, no, sometimes it's much easier to read
06:35:15 <pikhq> iconv does all character sets correctly.
06:35:30 <cpressey> pikhq: Really? OK, that is good to hear
06:36:10 <pikhq> Only thing more pedantic is ICU.
06:36:25 <cpressey> what version of the languages do you guys interpret?
06:36:55 <cpressey> /usr/bin/env python, even better. setting myself for a path injection exploit
06:37:28 <Gregor> It's not an exploit if the user can run your program ...
06:37:39 <Gregor> They could just run it as .../whatever/python yourthing.py anyway
06:38:02 <Gregor> It's only an exploit if the user can set PATH but not run arbitrary binaries, which is a bizarre situation.
06:38:07 <pikhq> cpressey: If you've got a malicious python injected into your path you're already fucked.
06:38:34 <pikhq> Especially since that could be anything else injected as well.
06:39:20 <Rugxulo> "the latest" ... I don't understand, you mean you don't like having only one implementation?? or just the constantly moving target?
06:40:16 <cpressey> well, the env thing might be a bit paranoid on my part, i admit. still -- i like to know WHICH binary it's going to run...
06:40:43 <Rugxulo> they really are between a rock and a hard place ... wanting to abandon 2.x but can't force people
06:40:56 <cpressey> as for "the latest" -- I wrote my script for some version of the language -- can I not say "please interpret it with this version of the language"?
06:41:17 <Gregor> cpressey: Anyway, your versioned shebang idea is about as good an idea as symbol versioning in libc.
06:41:30 <Gregor> (And symbol versioning in libc is a friggin' terrible idea)
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06:41:59 <Rugxulo> Perl has "require 5.005" or something, right?
06:42:02 <cpressey> Gregor: it could be an argument. like /usr/bin/foo --gte 5.0 --lt 6.0
06:42:21 <pikhq> cpressey: Minor issue — people are morons.
06:42:28 <Gregor> cpressey: That would be tolerable I spose.
06:42:42 <Rugxulo> I'm sure there's some way to detect at runtime the appropriate version, even if it's a lame workaround
06:43:11 <pikhq> Tcl's actually got something vaguely reasonable. "package require Tcl 8.5"
06:43:13 <Rugxulo> what sucks is they implicitly seem to blame end users for not upgrading to 3.x
06:43:16 <cpressey> well, for that matter, an interpreter could interpret multiple languages. /usr/bin/mysuperwow --lua --version 5.1.2
06:43:23 <pikhq> Voila, you've stated that your program is expecting Tcl 8.5.
06:43:29 <Rugxulo> sure, if they were standardized ... but they aren't
06:43:47 <Rugxulo> you need an ISO language then ;-) which will of course be horribly bastardized and shunned completely by everyone
06:43:57 <Gregor> JavaScript! (Well, ECMA)
06:44:10 <Rugxulo> ha, the only name worse than JavaScript is ECMAscript, sheesh!!
06:44:29 <cpressey> ECMAScript sounds like something you need a prescription for, yes.
06:44:35 <pikhq> Gregor: C is an ISO standard.
06:44:45 <Rugxulo> "EczemaScript ... try it today"
06:45:11 <Rugxulo> right, and you can test against __STDC__ (I think)
06:45:35 <cpressey> Pascal, Eiffel, Ada also have standards. But Perl and Python and Ruby probably never will.
06:45:45 <Rugxulo> even REXX supports "parse version" to detect itself
06:45:55 <pikhq> cpressey: Perl 6 has a standard and no primary implementation.
06:46:05 <cpressey> pikhq: OK well Perl 6 is a bit of a freak.
06:46:07 <Rugxulo> Befunge doesn't, but I wrote my own lame-o program to test that at runtime
06:46:20 <Rugxulo> Perl 6 isn't even finalized
06:46:35 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Okay, okay, provisional standard.
06:46:36 <Rugxulo> it's been in the works for quite a while, but at least Rakudo Star is semi-close to a stable release
06:47:07 <Rugxulo> PUGS is (I think?) abandoned
06:47:49 <Gregor> JavaScript gets no love :P
06:47:59 <cpressey> Still, my point was: there is a cultural divide here; Python and Ruby and such things don't NEED standards, thankyouverymuch.
06:48:23 <cpressey> Of course, I say this now, and tomorrow, someone is going to invent a standards track for Python.
06:48:24 <pikhq> Nor does Ruby need a good implementation.
06:49:20 <cpressey> Ruby would be yet another obscure experimental gnarly language, were it not for Killer App Mr. Rails.
06:49:33 <pikhq> Rails sucks worse than Ruby.
06:50:18 <cpressey> (The sound of a decision being made on a questionable basis)
06:50:34 <Rugxulo> you need some form of compatibility or else it's one big nightmare to maintain anything
06:50:42 <Rugxulo> maybe not standard per se, but something!
06:51:06 <pikhq> I have a simple policy for web frameworks. It must be at least as good as CGI in C.
06:51:09 <Rugxulo> every point release in Ruby seems to break something (at least in theory)
06:51:21 <pikhq> (this is a fairly simple lower bound, but *things fail at it*)
06:51:37 <cpressey> Rugxulo: A de facto "only" implementation, is usually what.
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06:52:10 <cpressey> Rugxulo: I'm of that school of thought as well.
06:54:26 <Rugxulo> everything only gets more complicated, more bloated, never slimmer (except Oberon)
06:54:43 <Rugxulo> and even there, he seemed to almost remove too much :-P
06:55:40 <pikhq> Remember kids: the backspace key is the most productive key on the keyboard.
06:57:46 <cpressey> trying to figure out Lua's unicode support (It... doesn't have any.)
06:58:45 <pikhq> Which means that it's halfway to UTF-8 support. :P
06:58:48 <Rugxulo> Lua is extremely minimal in some ways
06:58:58 <Rugxulo> it's not 10 MB Bzip's for a reason!!
07:00:27 <pikhq> For the next... 12 hours.
07:00:48 <Rugxulo> bah, it's only 1am here ;-)
07:01:34 <pikhq> SLEEP DEPRIVATION SUCKS
07:05:25 <Rugxulo> tamagotchi matsumoto shigeru
07:06:33 <Rugxulo> BTW, who was it that was LLVM obsessed? fizzie??
07:06:48 <Rugxulo> somebody whined about a computed goto bug ... I assume that was fixed in recent release??
07:08:54 <Gregor> Vorpal, cpressey, pikhq, whoever: http://codu.org/tmp/zee2-2010-10-09.ogg zee2, now with FLAVOR! (actually I think I made this one worse ... )
07:11:07 <Gregor> (This one suffers most from the "disproportionately good piano soundfont" problem, so I had to do some tricks to make the piano less different, but I think that made things all wonky)
07:12:31 <cpressey> Rugxulo: you're in my timezone!
07:13:15 <Rugxulo> I'm a bit further south than you though
07:13:53 <Rugxulo> so the pizza's not as good ;-)
07:17:58 <Rugxulo> "24 hours Gregor Richards Changed to GPL" ... heh
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07:18:09 <Rugxulo> good, don't let MS "EEE" your ZEE (or would it be ZEEE?)
07:18:09 -!- augur has joined.
07:33:16 <Rugxulo> BTW, I read Herr Wirth call Lisp "esoteric" somewhere ... surely he didn't mean it in the literal sense that we know of ;-)
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07:38:03 <cpressey> Probably not. People call (parts of) Perl and Haskell "esoteric" all the time...
07:41:45 <Rugxulo> don't let the compiler bugs byte
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09:04:26 <cheater00> what are you basing any of this on???
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09:45:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, a bit repetitive at times though? Probably fits the intended use of it though.
09:49:15 <Vorpal> hm I wonder how tricky it would be to generate the effects of a binaural recording on a computer? Perhaps on the fly. Would be interesting for 3D FPS games
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10:01:22 <Vorpal> hm seems it has been done to some degree in EAX and similar stuff
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10:47:36 <olsner> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function
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12:26:58 <Vorpal> olsner, indeed found that a while after I asked
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13:05:30 <nooga> what were those postulates of nakamura
13:05:34 <nooga> or something like that
13:05:47 <nooga> with 'specialization' stuff
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13:28:30 <nooga> there was somethink like statement that one could specialize an interpreter and obtain compiler
13:44:45 <nooga> but there was this japanese surname and cool explanation with pictures
13:44:52 <nooga> with tokens and meat mincers
13:49:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm? what is the SBCL model?
13:49:45 <cpressey> olsner: I read that as "heat-related transfer function" and was like What?
13:50:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, just that functions etc. are compiled at runtime.
13:53:08 <cpressey> So, like Factor, except in Lisp.
13:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Fun fact: if can be defined in Lisp using only lambdas and macros.
13:54:35 <cpressey> nooga: You *may* be thinking of "partial evaluation": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_evaluation
13:54:59 <cpressey> Someone named Yoshihiko Futamura did significant work on it.
13:56:24 <cpressey> (and no it is not Ruby but GreaseMonkey isn't here for me to inform anyway)
13:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> "Yoshihiko Futurama" was what I immediately read that as.
14:02:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I thought sbcl could compile statically as well?
14:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, "static compilation" is a rather misfitting concept in Lisp.
14:03:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well. mostly because you can redefine a top level function anywhere
14:03:53 <Vorpal> still, you could do it by using a lookup table for those
14:04:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, exactly, the compiler needs to be available at all times.
14:04:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not really, I think you could compile all code blocks, then have a function name → code block lookup table that could be changed at runtime
14:04:48 <Vorpal> would be quite a pain though
14:04:55 <Vorpal> and probably would slow everything down a lot
14:05:32 -!- Slereah has joined.
14:05:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, iirc there is some scheme R4RS-minus-breaking-static-compilation implementation. Highly optimising, meant for number crushing
14:05:53 <Vorpal> ask alise, he told me about it
14:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you cannot do static compilation in Lisp, even with painful hacks.
14:09:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, I think that one didn't allow eval
14:09:34 <Vorpal> which makes it a whole lot easier
14:10:05 <Vorpal> scheme allows (define + -) or such though
14:10:19 <Vorpal> which this implementation did not of course
14:17:58 <cpressey> Scheme exists in part because it does not define eval
14:20:01 <cpressey> the distinction is less artificial somehow
14:25:13 <storkbot> cpressey: @topic set to assignment.
14:25:20 <storkbot> cpressey: @a=1 [server-scope assignment]
14:30:38 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm, what language?
14:30:57 <storkbot> Vorpal: Help is available for: assignment print
14:31:00 <storkbot> Vorpal: print [@a] [send contents of @a to stdout]
14:31:29 <Vorpal> storkbot: print [@foo]
14:31:32 <Vorpal> storkbot: print [@jashdjas]
14:35:04 <cpressey> Vorpal: I'm making the language up as I go along
14:37:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm, interesting approach.
14:39:01 <cpressey> the idea is sort of that the language and the IRC protocl overlap
14:39:48 <cpressey> also, implemented in lua, with parsing implemented with lua pattern matching. real professional-like.
14:43:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, so CTCP ACTION will have some special meaning?
14:45:05 <cpressey> i think i want to prevent it from being programmed to send absolutely arbitrary irc commands, though
14:47:20 <Vorpal> cpressey, how does one escape a newline in a string?
14:47:28 <Vorpal> storkbot, print foo\nQUIT
14:47:33 <Vorpal> is what I wnat to do :P
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15:14:33 -!- cpressey has changed nick to cpressey_.
15:16:02 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey.
15:17:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I was further considering Sierpiński numbers, and I realised that the trit-based scheme I had was /precisely/ equivalent to n-coin Hanoi.
15:22:55 <cpressey> I'm used to them being called rings.
15:23:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look at Mr Pressey with his fancy /rings/ for Hanoi.
15:24:06 <cpressey> Top hit for "n-coin Hanoi" is this Forth program: http://christophe.lavarenne.free.fr/ff/hanoi
15:25:27 <cpressey> "Use: to move one coin between two stacks, enter the name of the third stack;
15:41:06 <nooga> ÷ WHAT I JUST DID?
15:41:22 <nooga> i don't remember posting null string
15:43:49 -!- alise has joined.
15:47:07 <alise> 21:42:55 <cpressey> "oh, you WANT this? well, let's start making it"
15:47:07 <alise> 21:44:01 <pikhq> Each bit of the digital audio drives a seperate speaker. The LSB drives a very small one, and the size of speakers doubles for each next bit.
15:47:11 <alise> are they any good, though?
15:47:21 <alise> 21:45:19 <pikhq> For 16-bit audio reproduction, you need 16 seperate speakers... Starting with a 0.5 cm² driver would mean you would need a 3.2m² speaker system per channel.
15:47:44 <alise> 21:48:12 <Gregor> pikhq: If you actually did that, then moved those speakers away from each other.
15:47:51 <alise> Just arrange them randomly around the room
15:51:37 <alise> 22:25:19 <Rugxulo> heh, this is so boringly technical ... seriously, guys, do any of you even speak / write any languages outside of the BMP ???
15:51:55 <alise> entrant in my Most Xenophobic Comment of the Year award
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15:56:07 <alise> 22:34:20 <cpressey> "This Unicode module provides Unicode::String and Unicode::Character implemented by pure ruby based on iconv."
15:56:07 <alise> 22:34:27 <cpressey> I see something like that -> I worry.
15:56:07 <alise> 22:34:29 <cpressey> Should I?
15:56:14 <alise> ruby has native unicode support since 1.9
15:56:26 <alise> so you shouldn't need that, if it's a third-party lib
15:57:21 <alise> 22:42:02 <cpressey> Gregor: it could be an argument. like /usr/bin/foo --gte 5.0 --lt 6.0
15:57:25 <alise> unfortunately there's a limit to shebangs
15:57:39 <alise> i think you'd get anywhere from --gte to --gte 5.0 being actually passed there
15:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Google gives no hint as to what "BMP" means in that contexy.
15:57:48 <alise> not sure though; definitely not the whole thing
15:57:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: bmp unicode
15:58:58 <alise> 22:48:24 <pikhq> Nor does Ruby need a good implementation.
15:58:59 <alise> 22:48:25 <pikhq> :)
15:59:06 <alise> faster than python iirc
15:59:26 <alise> 22:49:33 <pikhq> Rails sucks worse than Ruby.
15:59:26 <alise> the Merb team took over the Rails team, so Rails 3 will be technically better, if not DHH himself ;)
15:59:36 <alise> 22:50:37 <cpressey> Anyway, Django. Nuff said.
16:01:20 <alise> 05:28:30 <nooga> there was somethink like statement that one could specialize an interpreter and obtain compiler
16:01:20 <alise> 05:40:55 <Phantom_Hoover> What, you mean use the SBCL model of compilation?
16:01:23 <alise> nooga: i know what you are talking about
16:01:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that is not what SBCL does
16:02:07 <cpressey> alise: nooga was talking about partial evaluation i'm pretty sure
16:02:17 <alise> i know what he is talking about
16:02:20 <alise> and have read a lot on the matter
16:02:25 <alise> there are indeed such postulates
16:02:34 <alise> nooga: http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/ <-- this guy did a lot on it a while back, search the archives
16:02:46 <alise> it sounds like that, yeah
16:03:01 <alise> but i don't recall the exact name
16:04:26 <alise> i swear i will find those postulates :D
16:04:26 <cpressey> Futamura only has projections, not postulates, it would sem
16:05:05 <alise> nooga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_evaluation#Futamura_projections
16:05:15 <alise> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/?s=futamura
16:05:38 <cpressey> so, yes: alise: nooga was talking about partial evaluation i'm pretty sure
16:05:48 <alise> but it's not entirely that
16:05:49 <alise> it's specialisation
16:05:56 <nooga> interesting blog btw
16:06:43 <cpressey> nooga: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html
16:06:48 <cpressey> the diagrams of which you speak?
16:07:11 <alise> meanwhile, luke palmer's music: http://hubrisarts.com/luke/Adagio.mp3
16:07:22 <nooga> i wanted to show this to my friend
16:07:27 <alise> nooga: his blog is awesome, disregard the personal whining
16:07:31 <alise> the tech stuff is great
16:07:49 <alise> nooga: he has some actual work on specialising interpreters and stuff
16:08:59 <alise> http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html?showComment=1241544840000#c4193054871836213800 btw
16:09:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no lambdabot
16:09:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you'll have to ask for it again
16:10:38 <alise> "Guy Steele said..."
16:10:43 <alise> from that sigfpe blog post
16:12:32 <alise> 06:09:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Scheme doesn't define an eval IIRC.
16:12:33 <alise> 06:17:58 <cpressey> Scheme exists in part because it does not define eval
16:12:33 <alise> 06:18:06 <cpressey> Otherwise it would be JAL
16:12:33 <alise> 06:18:12 <cpressey> (Just Another Lisp)
16:12:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: cpressey: you are both full of crap
16:13:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I was under the impression that RnRS didn't have it at one point.
16:13:40 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: "Although the three-peg version has a simple recursive solution as outlined above, the optimal solution for the Tower of Hanoi problem with four pegs (called Reve's puzzle), let alone more pegs, is still an open problem."
16:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Well... An argument could be made that it would be the Sierpiński pyramid, but that's evidenceless speculation.
16:14:59 <cpressey> alise: oh, indeed it does, R5 at least
16:15:01 <alise> Okay, R3RS doesn't have eval.
16:15:06 <alise> Comparison with the dialect used in [SICP]
16:15:06 <alise> Compare with S&ICP: simple renamings like @t{print}; easily
16:15:06 <alise> implemented things like @t{cons-stream}; more grave and controversial
16:15:06 <alise> omissions like @t{eval} and @t{make-envi@-ron@-ment}.
16:15:29 <alise> but apparently things had it anyway
16:15:34 <alise> things = all things basically
16:17:16 <cpressey> At the very least I've always perceived the Scheme community to be relatively eval-hostile.
16:19:06 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I suspect the presence of the word "optimal" there implies that there are multiple solutions when you have four pegs.
16:19:46 <cpressey> Oh wait, that may not matter for you
16:19:58 <cpressey> It's just a graph of all moves
16:28:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I propose we name the Sierpinski sections.
16:28:16 <alise> Up, left, and right.
16:28:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: how is that equivalent to hanoi?
16:32:45 <alise> centre = U:L:R:centre
16:32:47 <alise> what point ist his?
16:32:51 <alise> it's not actually the centre
16:35:09 <cpressey> I'm sorry, Mr Steele, pictures of pictures of things are isomorphic, for our purposes, to pictures of things
16:35:37 <cpressey> alise: it is the centre. just not the TWO DIMENSIONAL centre.
16:35:54 <cpressey> it is the three points on middle of the the inside of U, L, and R
16:36:10 <alise> hmm right i can see what it is
16:36:17 <alise> you know the left one inside the upper one?
16:36:18 <alise> of the whole thing
16:36:21 <alise> it's at the rightmost edge of that
16:36:28 <cpressey> except it's not three points, it's one... fractal point.
16:36:32 <alise> infinitesimally close to the hueg no-point space in the middle
16:38:30 <alise> 05:56:24 <cpressey> (and no it is not Ruby but GreaseMonkey isn't here for me to inform anyway)
16:40:41 <cpressey> alise: GreaseMonkey thought storkbot (nee mzstorkipiwanbot) was running Ruby
16:41:55 <cpressey> anyway I don't see why Pic (in the comments of sigfpe's Futamura article) isn't a comonad; given a machine that turns a's into b's, and a picture of an a, we can build an a, feed it to the machine, get a b, and take a picture of it.
16:42:00 <pikhq> Hmm. Should I give up on ddrescue or let this keep going?
16:44:43 <storkbot> cpressey: ~/t set to assignment.
16:44:48 <storkbot> alise: I have no idea what you're talking about.
16:45:06 <storkbot> cpressey: Assign a user-scope variable with ~/foo=1. Assign a server-scope variable with @bar=1.
16:45:35 <alise> this language is crazy.
16:45:45 <cheater00> alise: what are you basing any of this on???
16:46:01 <cpressey> cheater00: didn't you ask that last night?
16:46:29 <cheater00> cpressey: "didn't you" is relative
16:48:16 <cpressey> cheater00: you're prompting me to ask what "any of this" refers to
16:49:35 <cpressey> storkbot: goto goto goto print hi
16:50:31 <storkbot> alise: That's wonderful for you!
16:50:35 <alise> storkbot: goto dengo
16:50:44 <alise> storkbot: goto goto goto goto goto goat
16:50:44 <storkbot> alise: That's wonderful for you!
16:51:14 <pikhq> The only real argument for keeping it going is "well, it's not like *I* need to do anything about it."
16:51:16 <alise> pikhq: something you can torrent?
16:52:29 <cpressey> storkbot: damn, do you not syntax error normally ever now?
16:57:17 <alise> pikhq: check you can, do so, evaporate CD, inhale
16:57:25 <alise> consume content while high on COMPACT DISC
16:57:36 <pikhq> "720x400" Why would you do that to a 16:9 anamorphic DVD?
17:00:54 <alise> pikhq: I wonder if Usenet has any better shit than this torrent crap. (It may be faster, but... expiry and stuff.)
17:01:04 <alise> Shitty crap crap shit.
17:01:55 <alise> pikhq: So anyway: should I try and find that good 95?
17:02:02 <pikhq> alise: Please do so.
17:02:23 <pikhq> I shall find some coffee.
17:02:31 <alise> pikhq: http://www.torrentz.com/5051d8aebaeb47e223869d656a83d07041adefc7 Your job is to figure out what PS means, and if it means it's worth downloading or not. :P
17:04:37 <pikhq> An Indo-Iranian language; one of the two official languages of Afghanistan.
17:04:49 <cpressey> pikhq: That's a damned fine idea.
17:05:20 <cpressey> But I guess Pasto is an acceptable idea as well.
17:05:34 <pikhq> Okay, no, that can't be it.
17:05:47 <pikhq> No Pashto localisation of ANY version of Windows.
17:05:57 <alise> http://xkcd.com/95/
17:06:08 <alise> (it's so terrible for an early comic but it's so funny...)
17:06:11 <alise> and i have no idea why
17:06:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, well
17:06:37 <alise> data Section = Up | Left | Right
17:06:37 <alise> data Path = [Section]
17:06:40 <pikhq> DEAR GOD BROWSERS WHY DO YOU HAVE KEY COMBOS THAT KILL EVERYTHING
17:06:56 <alise> centre = U:L:R:centr
17:07:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Where's dat
17:07:24 <Phantom_Hoover> It spirals, presumably to a fixed point in the top triangle.
17:07:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: now we just have to write a program to plot these points. aieee.
17:08:17 <alise> i also have left and right E
17:08:32 <alise> anyway, if we say up = 0, left = 1, and right = 2, and it's represented as 1/n... no that doesn't work because of 0
17:08:38 <alise> but at the same time we can't use up=0 and no 1/n beacuse then
17:08:48 <alise> this is the problem with this stuff
17:08:50 <alise> you need a different representation
17:11:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh wait i have it
17:11:48 <alise> 0.[the infinite trinary string]
17:11:52 <cpressey> oh yeah, it is in the top triangle.
17:12:01 <alise> it starts with up :P
17:12:03 <alise> so if up=0, left=1, right=1
17:12:05 <alise> then this spiral path is
17:12:12 <alise> 0.012012012012012012...
17:12:42 <alise> which, -- and let's see if i can get wolfram alpha to understand that --
17:12:44 <alise> should be something in decimal
17:12:46 <cpressey> i keep thinking this is the chaos game
17:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it can also be extended to infinite fractal space.
17:13:39 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:14:05 <cpressey> rewriting storkbot's language to be even stupider
17:14:15 <alise> "sum n=2/3 to inf, (1*3^-(3n)) + (2*3^-(3n+1))"
17:14:39 <alise> 0.1923076923....stuff
17:15:05 <alise> 0.0011000100111011000100111011000100111011000100111011000100111011...
17:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Other things this method can be generalised to: getting a nice R^n → R bijection.
17:15:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: now, coordinate 1/pi!
17:15:42 <alise> up right right left right left up up
17:16:04 <alise> not seeing a particularly interesting coordinate there :D
17:16:31 <alise> cpressey: there is no such point
17:16:36 <alise> all points are infinite paths
17:16:38 <alise> 0 = 0.000000000000000...
17:16:41 <alise> = the topmost point
17:17:21 <alise> not that hard to make a program to output this, if it's at a certain pixel size there's a point where you won't be able to follow the path further and get any more detail, since you're at the pixel level
17:17:28 <alise> output the point on a rendered triangle that is
17:17:38 <alise> could even have a zoom :)
17:17:43 <cpressey> so any finite path is *not* a point on the gasket
17:18:20 <cpressey> but all the finite paths do refer to points on the plane
17:18:39 <alise> cpressey: well, no, points
17:18:42 <alise> they're infinitely detailed
17:18:47 <alise> of course there ARE no points
17:18:50 <alise> but "in the limit", as they say
17:18:54 <alise> cpressey: well yeah but we don't support them :)
17:18:59 <alise> because you can't distinguish 0.0 from 0.00 etc.
17:19:06 <alise> and besides, they're not terribly interesting
17:19:13 <alise> the infinite precision is what's interesting here
17:19:22 <alise> cpressey: but we're representing them as reals
17:19:25 <cpressey> they're well-defined, is all i was thinking
17:19:32 <alise> specifically, U->0, L->1, R->2, put 0. in front of them
17:19:40 <alise> voila, everything in [0,1]
17:19:46 <alise> well 0 is included
17:20:11 <alise> so our coordinates are all in [0,1]
17:20:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, we precede it with 0. :P
17:20:34 <alise> because otherwise U:n would == n
17:21:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you can do things before the decimal point as well.
17:22:01 <alise> and i don't want to :)
17:22:08 <alise> [0,1] is the bestest
17:22:14 <alise> it's the abestosed
17:24:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I was also thinking about arithmetic operations earlier.
17:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> The problem is that I do not know what this subtle fashion was.
17:29:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I can use the quadtree analogy for the complexes to help...
17:31:19 <alise> oh wow, Insane Clown Posse are evangelical Christians
17:31:25 <alise> will the amusement ever end?
17:31:40 <Phantom_Hoover> A number in it can hence be represented as a string of quaternary digits, each selecting a subquadrant.
17:34:52 <alise> ...aww, the Guardian are inaccurate again.
17:34:57 <alise> They actually revealed that eight years ago.
17:36:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I laughed at the bit where they're all looking at someone attacking "Miracles" and the article says "Violent J suddenly looks at me suspiciously. The woman in the video is bespectacled and nerdy. I am bespectacled and nerdy. Could I have the same motives?"
17:36:54 <cpressey> I too am bespectacled and nerdy
17:37:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "'I don't know how magnets work either,' I say, to relieve his suspicions."
17:38:07 <alise> please tell me that's real
17:38:19 <alise> also this is the article but the relevant "song" came out in 2002 so, yeah: http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/oct/09/insane-clown-posse-christians-god
17:39:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I love Ronson's style with the crazy, since he's completely nonconfrontational, and as such they just make themselves look like even bigger idiots.
17:39:24 <alise> "Right now, they're gaining the trust of the people who think unscientifically. Then, they're going to reveal how magnets work."
17:41:32 <alise> [["A college professor took two days out of her fucking life to specifically attack us," says Violent J. "Oh yeah, she had it all figured out."]]
17:41:49 <Phantom_Hoover> "Goths don't do anything in the UK. They're a harmless and essentially middle-class subculture." — Jon Ronson, elsewhere.
17:42:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Did you know: not a single critic likes Insane Clown Posse?
17:42:13 <alise> Not a *single* critic.
17:42:21 <alise> There is nobody who is not a juggalo and likes them.
17:42:34 <alise> They can't even get a record label to tolerate them despite the gajillions of money they'd make! They have to self-release!
17:42:50 <alise> [[I figured most people would say, 'Wow, I didn't know Insane Clown Posse could be deep like that.']]
17:43:00 <alise> Fucking magnets, how deep is this?
17:43:07 <alise> ...not fucking magnets in that way.
17:43:16 <Phantom_Hoover> "I did think," I admit, "that fog constitutes quite a low threshold for miracles."
17:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> "Well," I clarify, "I've lived around fog my whole life, so maybe I'm blasé."
17:43:58 <alise> Brits, aren't they great?
17:44:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Suddenly he glances at me. The woman in the video is bespectacled and nerdy. I am bespectacled and nerdy. Might I have a similar motive?
17:44:03 <Phantom_Hoover> "I don't know how magnets work," I say, to put him at his ease.
17:44:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you quoted that seconds ago
17:44:21 <pikhq> Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't ICP specialise in sucking ass?
17:44:34 <alise> They suck ass with a rota system.
17:44:40 <alise> To fit all the ass-sucking in.
17:45:01 <alise> "A giraffe is a fucking miracle. It has a dinosaur-like neck. It's yellow. Yeah, technically an elephant is not a miracle. Technically. They've been here for hundreds of years…"
17:45:04 <alise> this is my favourite thing ever
17:45:22 <alise> IS THIS NOT THE BEST THING YOU HAVE EVER READ
17:45:25 <pikhq> They must also specialise in being stoned.
17:45:35 <pikhq> Cause that's the most high thing ever.
17:45:39 <alise> Well, they smoke in that article. Who knows *what* they're smoking.
17:45:50 <alise> pikhq: No, it's just the most ignorant-evangelical-Christian thing ever.
17:46:06 <alise> Apparently *99% of their albums pre-2002*, the ones in that series they did, carnival or whatever,
17:46:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "Well," Violent J says, "science is… we don't really… that's like…" He pauses. Then he waves his hands as if to say, "OK, an analogy": "If you're trying to fuck a girl, but her mom's home, fuck her mom! You understand? You want to fuck the girl, but her mom's home? Fuck the mom. See?"
17:46:14 <pikhq> alise: High, ignorant-evangelical-Christian... Same results.
17:46:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What.
17:46:36 <alise> Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
17:46:42 <alise> whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
17:47:15 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: So, instead of fucking Feynman, we should fuck Jesus.
17:47:27 <pikhq> GAY NECROPHILIA IS BETTER THAN JUST BEING GAY
17:47:30 <alise> Jesus is Feynman's mom?
17:47:36 <alise> THIS EXPLAINS EVERYTHING
17:47:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Feynman is Jesus' mom?
17:47:59 <alise> jesus forgot to use immaculate contraception :|
17:48:03 <pikhq> THIS EXPLAINS EVERYTHING
17:48:33 <pikhq> Who is also Jesus.
17:48:46 <alise> The Father, the Feynman and the Holy Ghost.
17:49:08 <alise> [[A fucking elephant is a miracle. If people can't see a fucking miracle in a fucking elephant, then life must suck for them, because an elephant is a fucking miracle. So is a giraffe.]]
17:49:10 <alise> this is just amazing
17:49:29 <alise> [[Violent J shakes his head sorrowfully. "Who looks at the stars at night and says, 'Oh, those are gaseous forms of plutonium'?" he says. "No! You look at the stars and you think, 'Those are beautiful.'"]]
17:49:39 <alise> Gaseous forms of plutonium.
17:49:45 <alise> Pluto is made out of solid plutonium, obviously
17:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> That boy grew up to be Eminem and, incensed, he's been publicly deriding ICP ever since in lyrics such as, "ICP are overrated and hated because of their false identities".
17:50:33 <alise> You know what, Eminem is actually better than Insane Clown Posse.
17:50:55 <alise> No. Seriously. Think about it.
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17:51:09 <Phantom_Hoover> [["So all those unpleasant characters in the songs," I ask, "like the narrator in I Stuck Her With My Wang, they're examples of people you shouldn't be?"
17:51:10 <Phantom_Hoover> "Well, it's very unpleasant," I say. "'I stuck her with my wang. She hit me in the balls. I grabbed her by her neck. And I bounced her off the walls. She said it was an accident and then apologised. But I still took my elbow and blackened both her eyes.' That's clearly a song about domestic violence. So your Christian message is... don't be like that man?"
17:51:14 <Phantom_Hoover> "I Stuck Her With My Wang is funny," Violent J says. "Jokes. Jokes, man. Jokes. Jokes. Jokes. It's just a ridiculous scenario. Silly stories, man. Silly stories. What's she doing kicking him in the balls? We find it funny. But we're saying, while we're close, while we're hanging, hey, man, do you ever ask yourself what's in your riddle box? If you had to turn the crank today?"]]
17:51:15 <alise> Or, if you really need convincing, listen to some ICP.
17:51:24 <alise> I Stuck Her With My Wang :D
17:51:45 <alise> what a great song title
17:51:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: We are doing science SO HARD right now! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:52:04 <alise> We are SO HARD doing science right now!
17:52:26 <Gregor> We are SO HARD doing science SO HARD right now!
17:52:34 <alise> [["Like Stonehenge and Easter Island," says Shaggy. "Nobody knows how that shit got there."]]
17:52:41 <nooga> hmhsouds like my gf
17:52:49 <nooga> just replace science with s...
17:53:15 <alise> You know, I think if your girlfriend is getting hard you need to seriously ask her what genitalia she was born with.
17:53:50 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Violent J turns to him and says, softly, "If we moved furniture for a living we'd have a bad back or bad knees. We think for a living. We try to create. We try to constantly think of cool ideas. And every once in a while there's a breakdown in the engine… I guess that's the price you pay."
17:53:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Shaggy nods quietly. "I get anxiety and shit a lot," he says. "And reading that stuff people write about us… It hurts."]]
17:54:22 <Phantom_Hoover> [[He shoots me a defiant look and says, "You know Miracles? Let me tell you, if Alanis Morissette had done that fucking song everyone would have called it fucking genius."]]
17:55:37 <alise> He can't be sinister, he's British.
17:55:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/mr_ronson.jpg Just http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/mr_ronson.jpg
17:56:51 <Phantom_Hoover> But he's also hilarious, so I won't hold it against him.
17:58:23 <alise> cpressey: How do they work?
17:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/aug/05/familyandrelationships.lifeandhealth is more of the same kind of thing.
17:59:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Ronson meets nutballs, doesn't tell them they're nutballs, they look like even bigger nutballs.
18:00:41 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The children nod. And the exercise in telepathy begins.
18:00:41 <Phantom_Hoover> And it gives me no pleasure to say this, but blindfolded children immediately start walking into chairs, into pillars, into tables.]]
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18:04:22 <alise> pikhq: I may have just found a build of Windows Neptune.
18:04:55 <alise> pikhq: So, you know, if you want to see Windows Me reimplemented on top of Windows 2000...
18:05:45 <pikhq> alise: Wasn't Windows Neptune just the precursor to XP?
18:06:00 <alise> In early 2000, Microsoft merged the team working on Neptune with that developing Windows Odyssey, the upgrade to Windows 2000 for business customers. The combined team worked on a new project codenamed Whistler,[2][3] which was released at the end of 2001 as Windows XP.[4][5] In the meantime, Microsoft released another home user DOS-based operating system called Windows Me.[3]
18:06:09 <alise> pikhq: tl;dr the teams merged.
18:06:25 <alise> pikhq: Some screenshots of note:
18:06:26 <alise> http://www.digibarn.com/collections/screenshots/XP%20Neptune%20Build%205111/aneptunelogon.gif
18:06:29 <alise> http://nunney.me.uk/images/neptune/neptune_7.jpg
18:06:41 <alise> http://www.digibarn.com/collections/screenshots/XP%20Neptune%20Build%205111/zneptunebugreport.gif
18:07:23 <alise> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2534/4110046261_b2285e6e8b_o.png
18:07:33 <alise> pikhq: So, you know, if you want an ISO of that... :P
18:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> An observation that turned out to be prophetic. "From the very beginning of our music, God is in there," Violent J says, "in hidden messages."
18:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a small silence. He looks torn between revealing them or maintaining the mystery. He shoots Shaggy a glance.
18:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, what's up, motherfucker/This is Shaggs 2 Dope/Congratulating you on opening/the Riddlebox/It looks like you received your prize/The cost, what it cost, was your ASS,/bitchboy!/Hahahahah! — (The Riddle Box, 1995)
18:08:30 <pikhq> It uses so damned much memory to link Chrome.
18:09:25 <alise> "95-vista.iso", 7 gigs
18:09:46 <alise> WINDOWS 95 UPGRADE
18:09:53 <alise> if only it wasn't on a 2 gig file in .nrg format
18:10:50 <alise> pikhq: Okay: What about various versions of Chicago (95), Daytona (3.5), Georgia (ME), Memphis (98), Nashville (96!!!), Whistler (XP), Janus 3.1 *and* NT 5.0(!)?
18:11:18 <alise> Alas, though, no seeders :)
18:12:18 <alise> pikhq: http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/184957413/?tab=summary
18:13:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what have you written for the Sierpiński numbers so far?
18:13:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The structure and a few paths. It isn't difficult to plot a position to arbitrary accuracy, but I am lazy.
18:14:14 <alise> pikhq: BTW, did you like pre-2.0 Amarok?
18:14:19 <alise> Before they made it shitty.
18:14:28 <pikhq> It was rather nice.
18:14:32 <alise> pikhq: http://code.google.com/p/clementine-player/
18:14:36 <alise> pikhq: Amarok 1.4, for Qt 4.
18:14:40 <alise> Actively developed.
18:14:48 <alise> Quod Libet is still probably better but *shrug*
18:14:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Umm, you can't really have reals in haskell.
18:15:02 <alise> data Section = U | L | R
18:15:02 <alise> data Path = [Section]
18:15:05 <alise> where Path is assumed to be finite
18:15:07 <alise> and that's close enough
18:15:15 <alise> to convert from a computable real to this:
18:15:19 <pikhq> s/in haskell/on a computer/
18:15:21 <alise> figure out the algorithm to produce the trinary digits
18:15:34 <alise> strip off the initial 0.
18:15:50 <alise> is 0.012012012012..._2
18:16:17 <alise> So? It works perfectly, and is easy to construct paths with.
18:17:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I meant getting the path that leads to a point along an edge of the gasket that corresponds to the number in question.
18:17:21 <alise> pikhq: You know what? I'm going to write my own fucking music manager. And I might add video support after that, too.
18:18:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Huh?
18:18:24 <cpressey> so mainly it's just converting to trinary
18:18:41 <alise> cpressey: what i have is a representation of anything in [0,1] in trinary, yep
18:18:43 <alise> well, anything computable
18:18:57 <cpressey> doing mathematics SO HARD right now
18:18:59 <alise> (proof that 0.333..._3 = 1 :P)
18:19:08 <alise> pikhq: Say. Is there a GTK binding for Tcl that exposes a Tk-like API?
18:19:21 <pikhq> I don't know, but I hope so.
18:19:30 <pikhq> Tk has a great API, after all.
18:19:37 <alise> pikhq: TO THE TCL-WIKI-O-SCOPE!
18:20:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: YES YES SHUT UP
18:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And 0.22222222.... isn't equal to 1 here, it's not on the real line.
18:21:11 <alise> Umm. It is equal to 1.
18:21:21 <alise> pikhq: TCL WIKI DOWN HALP
18:21:49 <alise> 0.111111111111... = 1/2.
18:21:57 <alise> Ask Wolfram Alpha if you don't believe me.
18:22:03 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, are you talking about normal trits on the reals?
18:22:14 <alise> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sum+n%3D1+to+inf,+3^-n
18:22:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That's *what my path is*, except not the reals, [0,1].
18:22:30 <alise> It is, literally, every (computable) element of [0,1].
18:22:44 <alise> it is [] and not () because x = R:x is equal to 1.
18:22:48 <alise> and x = U:x is equal to 0.
18:22:52 <alise> and x = L:x is equal to 1/2.
18:23:51 <Phantom_Hoover> And fix (R:) would probably be a complex, for reasons complex.
18:23:55 <alise> You ... really don't understand how trinary works.
18:25:10 <alise> pikhq: Do you think it's worth having my player be a client to a music daemon I write? (mpd and xmms2 are insufficient in many ways)
18:25:15 <alise> That would allow nice plugin-y things.
18:27:02 <pikhq> alise: If you can write a music daemon well, then yeah.
18:27:13 <alise> pikhq: I can sure as hell flail around trying to.
18:28:02 <alise> pikhq: Behold the pure liquid insanity getting libavcodec and libao to talk to each other requires:
18:28:02 <alise> http://nikolai.luthman.name/misc/queue.c
18:29:29 <alise> pikhq: Grr, .name.
18:29:34 <Gregor> Anything that requires .name is already pretty insane :P
18:29:40 <alise> If you register first.last.name, that means you can never, ever acquire last.name.
18:29:43 <alise> In fact, nobody can!
18:29:51 <pikhq> alise: That's... Moronic.
18:29:52 <alise> Even if it expires.
18:30:17 <cpressey> also it implies that it is a website about a name
18:30:18 <pikhq> Anyways. I suspect that that is less insane than what it wraps. Sadly.
18:30:52 <pikhq> cpressey: TLDs don't work that way thank you.
18:31:29 <pikhq> TLDs have no associated semantics.
18:31:43 <pikhq> Except what IANA declares.
18:31:45 <alise> pikhq: I know! How about I do everything else and you do the audio code.
18:32:08 <pikhq> And IANA declares that .name be for personal names.
18:32:11 <cpressey> pikhq: it's funnier if they do
18:33:12 <pikhq> alise: But SOUND IS HARD
18:33:34 <alise> pikhq: SO IS UI DESIGN AND I'M DOING THAT PART
18:33:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I got an ugly function working that kind of shows what I meant earlier.
18:34:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Okay.
18:34:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It takes a real and generates the corresponding location on the top-left side of the gasket.
18:35:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I know that the stuff to work out the binary digits is horrible, don't mention it.
18:35:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you forgot U
18:35:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's silly, up/left/right are directions
18:35:53 <alise> top isn't a direction!
18:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, true, but I view them as names for each section.
18:36:10 -!- storkbot has joined.
18:37:14 <alise> pikhq: Now for the all-important decision; what language I'll use!
18:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> And the reason R doesn't feature is because the function is meant to produce a location on the top-left edge.
18:38:32 <Phantom_Hoover> So using the path system, it should approach that edge at each iteration.
18:38:52 <storkbot> cpressey: Out of stack space! Well no, but I stopped it anyway.
18:40:28 <storkbot> cpressey: Out of stack space! Well no, but I stopped it anyway.
18:42:49 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: so mainly it just needs to convert to trinary
18:43:37 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: because you've decided *part* of the gasket is good enough for you.
18:44:33 <alise> cpressey: i think it's all he needs for hanoi or something
18:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Trying to work out what set could come between R and C, which I concluded would be Sierp.
18:45:05 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Hanoi is just an incidental tool which aids perception.
18:45:08 <cpressey> If you are happy with it being 2/3 of Sierp, then by all means.
18:46:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: no, you are not happy? or no, it is not Sierp? or no, it is Sierp, but modified to be equivalent to how R lies in C, for a better sense of betweenness?
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18:47:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It is a subset of Sierp that behaves precisely the same as the real interval [0,1]
18:50:54 <cpressey> storkbot: @r=[~storkbot/BRA]@r[~storkbot/KET]
18:51:31 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I vaguely hope that I can use it to get a sane definition of addition, but I'm not very confident.
18:52:39 <alise> pikhq: I need suggestions for my music software kthx
18:57:01 <alise> proto-plan: cat all the half-life full-life consequences video chapters together, submit to festival
18:58:09 -!- lament has joined.
18:59:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Then I'll walk down the Royal Mile dressed as John Freeman and hand out leaflets to all of those irritating gits who hand out leaflets!
19:00:35 <alise> i was thinking cannes
19:03:14 <alise> cpressey: The main character of Halflife Fullife Consequences.
19:03:23 <alise> Sorry, *Halflife: Fullife Consequences
19:03:42 <alise> He lives up to his family name and faces FULL LIFE CONSEQUENCES.
19:03:53 <alise> A literary masterpiece.
19:03:55 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:04:18 <alise> henry is his brother
19:04:31 <Gregor> It truly is a literary masterpiece though.
19:04:47 <alise> Gregor: However, the movie adaption is one of the few that is better than the source material.
19:04:55 <Gregor> Who hates humens because he's from science and outer space.
19:04:57 <alise> Especially Free Man.
19:04:59 <alise> It is a completely new story.
19:05:09 <alise> The emotion in that... what, five minute fight scene.
19:05:41 <alise> What we learn is that the only acceptable kind of science is the kind that makes guns
19:06:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I totally think we should chop the title sequences off them all and put them into one video.
19:06:07 <alise> Ready for cinematic release!
19:07:01 <alise> cpressey is sighing at our IMMATURITY right now :|
19:07:10 <alise> Man, I love how realistically that train falls.
19:07:17 <alise> It just sort of wriggles down off the bridge.
19:07:39 <alise> I've already watched it all.
19:07:44 <alise> I'm just re-watching Free Man.
19:07:46 <alise> Because it's the best part.
19:09:20 <alise> I am still not sure what that Portal scene is all about.
19:09:30 <cheater00> alise: you have not answered my question
19:09:34 <alise> Or why making that shot flung John around the facility.
19:09:43 <alise> Or why he falls upwards.
19:10:15 <alise> "A rocket hit John Freeman but he got up"
19:12:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way John Freeman Googles to find out how to kill Next Boss..
19:16:31 <alise> Do we ever find out what Tobe has done?
19:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> What was John Freeman doing between the end of What has tobe done and the end of Hero Beggining?
19:20:27 <Gregor> Actually, I'm disappointed that the narrator didn't pronounce "Tobe" in "What has Tobe Done" as the name Tobe (short for Tobias)
19:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, we'll get back to science when we have faced FULL LIFE CONSEQUENCES
19:21:14 <alise> I was like "YES THIS IS GOING TO BE HIL- darn"
19:28:00 <alise> cpressey is TOO OLD FOR THIS
19:28:23 <cpressey> it is terribly, terribly stupid.
19:29:10 <alise> What has Cary done?
19:41:38 <cpressey> The fanfiction came first and is unaffiliated with the video production, correct?
19:41:58 <cpressey> And the fanfiction was not, in fact, written in jest.
19:42:05 <Gregor> It was, in fact, written in jest.
19:42:08 <Gregor> Although nobody knew that at the time.
19:42:25 <Gregor> The writer turns out to be a super-brilliant goon.
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19:47:29 <Gregor> "Agnoistrology – the method by which one may make predictions, give advice, and reveal the dynamics of human relationships without actually knowing anything (very similar to astrology but devoid of any pretense)."
19:50:30 <alise> Gregor: PLAY VAGRANT
19:50:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ~/Code/vagrant/vagrant.py
19:50:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: do you want the latest version? :P
19:51:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do you plan to modify it -- i.e. should I bother pasting debug.py too?
19:51:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/1209960.txt?key=vditdcajejmoyploowa
19:52:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Note: This code is short enough that it is, in fact, physically impossible for it to be a game.
19:52:12 <alise> You are recommended to suspend disbelief to induce the notion that you are playing a game.
19:52:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because look at it!
19:52:30 <alise> Even *I'm* not sure where the game logic went.
19:52:40 <alise> Gotta be somewhere, right?
19:53:03 <Gregor> 'twould be nice if I had any clue what any of this is :P
19:53:10 <alise> Gregor: It's a roguelike. And it's IMPOSSIBLY SHORT
19:53:20 <Gregor> I mean the characters.
19:53:30 <alise> Q is enemy that isn't coded yet
19:53:35 <Gregor> Oh, I should stop eating poison.
19:53:42 <alise> S: is satiation in the status bar
19:53:45 <alise> Gregor: You can't help it.
19:53:48 <alise> Gregor: You will now hallucinate for N turns.
19:54:00 <alise> Gregor: You may want to press a key like space to wait them out, if your S: satiation is high enough.
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19:54:09 <alise> yubn work for diagonal movement, btw.
19:54:36 <Gregor> Oh, I had just been using hjkl :P
19:54:40 <alise> q - quaff potion (how much hp you have to move to hp meter is in parens after HP, helps hallucination a bit)
19:54:55 <alise> enter - dismiss message; anything dismisses message if your cursor moves after one, i.e. a blocking message
19:55:05 <alise> but enter dismisses messages that don't block, so you can see the status-line
19:55:12 <alise> this also re-hallucinates, which is a bug but too hard to fix
19:55:16 <alise> (lets you see what everything is if you hold it down)
19:55:20 <alise> any other key skips a turn
19:55:37 <Gregor> 'snot much of a dungeon :P
19:55:40 <alise> S goes to zero, you lose 25 per turn
19:55:56 <alise> you can survive this with a bunch of potions beforehand and close food
19:56:05 <alise> Gregor: Right now, the recommended playstyle is to rack up as much cash as you can.
19:56:10 <alise> Also, who says it's a dungeon?
19:56:15 <alise> It's ~PROCEDURALLY GENERATED~
19:56:38 <Gregor> Yeah, but your mom is procedurally generated.
19:56:40 <alise> Gregor: And when it comes down to it, I mean, man, this thing is 1421 fuckin' bytes of code.
19:56:50 <alise> (not counting ending newline, which does nothing)
19:57:08 <alise> Gregor: Oh, and hallucinating is SWEET.
19:57:14 <Gregor> It's very pretty code too.
19:57:23 <alise> Yes. You are obviously serious.
19:57:31 <alise> X-=(X-x)/17;Y-=(Y-y)/5
19:57:34 <alise> This used to be four lines of if statements.
19:57:40 <alise> It is the scrolling code.
19:59:11 <alise> I just realised the HORRIBLE POSSIBILITIES that has.
19:59:24 <Gregor> I don't even know wtf that means :P
19:59:31 <alise> Gregor: Hallucination count; %= is modulo.
19:59:35 <alise> r is random integer between.
19:59:39 <alise> So that's what times hallucination out.
19:59:44 <alise> Say it's 115 for ages, because of wtf. And you get to 115, right, and it goes to modulo it
19:59:59 <alise> So you START OVER FROM ALMOST SCRATCH
20:00:04 <alise> And other evil like that
20:00:09 <alise> That must be why hallu can last SO FRIKKIN' LONG
20:01:54 <alise> if U>r(85,115):U=0;Q('You feel a lot better now.')
20:02:05 <alise> Now only 1417 bytes!
20:02:21 <alise> Gregor: BTW, good strategy: Get a shitload of potions, q them all up.
20:02:31 <alise> Then if you run out of foods, just scramble for the nearest foods.
20:03:01 <alise> Also, you can't get HP or S above 300, so don't try.
20:03:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, incidentally, I've got the first bit of the R → Sierp injection you were thinking of.
20:03:57 <alise> You were thinking of, you mean.
20:06:04 <alise> Gregor: Interesting detail: Potions can only help with hallucination if you have less than 300 HP :P
20:06:05 <Phantom_Hoover> if x' < 1 then T:(biToSierp x') else if x' >= 1 && x' < 2 then L:(biToSierp (x'-1)) else R:(biToSierp (x'-2))
20:06:07 <alise> Well, now, at least.
20:07:20 <alise> you do realise you need infinite input numbers for that?
20:08:07 <alise> Gregor: SO WHADDYA THINK OF MY GAME
20:08:19 <Gregor> alise: It, like you, is made of fail.
20:09:00 <alise> Gregor: I'd like to see you do better in the same number of bytes P:P
20:09:35 <Gregor> Let's see you do an MMO roguelike in no more than double the number of bytes!
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20:11:30 <alise> Gregor: MMO ROGUELIKES DON'T WORK DAMMIT
20:11:43 <alise> Unless anyone who makes a turn has to wait for EVERYONE ELSE IN THE UNIVERSE to make a turn.
20:11:45 <Gregor> Neither does your mom, and yet here we are.
20:14:22 <alise> pikhq: POLYGLOT TCL STARPACK
20:14:42 <alise> It is a valid PE/Windows, ELF/Linux, and Mach-O/OS X executable file.
20:19:47 <alise> pikhq: Or rather: it ought to be
20:20:50 <alise> if you only have paths that are like
20:20:54 <alise> then they all implicitly end with zeroes
20:20:59 <alise> meaning paths have to end in infinite ups
20:21:05 <alise> so you actually need a custom data structure to represent this
20:21:43 <alise> figure it out yourself
20:21:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Normal lazy lists work fine for the values I've tried.
20:24:03 <Phantom_Hoover> The issue is no different to any other decimal representation, really.
20:27:19 <alise> you had realfrac stuff
20:27:21 <alise> which is not sufficient
20:28:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: for paths
20:28:20 <cheater00> i will give you $1000000000000000000000000000000 for the latest version of vagrant
20:29:08 <Ilari> Same executable that is valid for all three? Must be quite creative...
20:29:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, you should use lists of a type with three elements
20:29:16 <alise> Ilari: it doesn't exist, it just should :)
20:29:24 <alise> we should have some sort of standardised multi-executable format
20:29:35 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:29:41 <Phantom_Hoover> That's *exactly how I'm representing members of Sierp*.
20:31:17 <Phantom_Hoover> The realfrac stuff is just how I'm doing the tentative bijective things.
20:32:03 <alise> pikhq: Lame, there's no tclkit package in Ubuntu.
20:35:12 <pikhq> alise: There wouldn't be.
20:35:48 <pikhq> ... It's a single file build of Tcl?
20:37:03 <alise> pikhq: Starkits use it.
20:38:00 <pikhq> ... Okay, good point.
20:43:51 <alise> pikhq: I AM TRYING TO TRY WIKIT HERE
20:45:53 <pikhq> ... I got nothing.
20:48:42 <alise> pikhq: So I have to compile TclKit?
20:48:55 <pikhq> alise: Or just download it.
20:49:09 <alise> pikhq: oh; got a link?
20:49:32 <pikhq> http://www.equi4.com/tclkit/download.html
20:49:39 <alise> pikhq: [Information on this page needs refreshed, given that during 2007 the entire engine was replaced with wubwikit. ]
20:50:50 <pikhq> Alternately http://www.equi4.com/wikis/equi4/218
20:51:39 <alise> $ wget http://www.equi4.com/pub/tk/tars/Makefile
20:51:42 <alise> Pfft, way too difficult
20:51:47 <alise> make -f <(curl http://www.equi4.com/pub/tk/tars/Makefile)
20:52:31 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/tclkit$ make -f <(curl http://www.equi4.com/pub/tk/tars/Makefile)
20:52:35 <alise> This *actually works*.
20:52:40 <alise> pikhq: ONE STEP COMPILE
20:54:47 <alise> The only way it could possibly be better is if it created its own temporary directory and then moved the final resulting binary to the current directory, meaning you would not have to create a new directory first to hold the temporary files.
20:55:21 <alise> g++ -o kit kitInit.o pwb.o rec... FAILED:
21:00:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nope.
21:00:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it could be done by doing something carry-esque, but I'm not sure.
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21:02:16 <alise> pikhq: How does one start Wikit's web server?
21:02:28 <Phantom_Hoover> The problem with visualising it is that there are points which can be reached by concatenation that aren't part of the gasket itself.
21:02:30 <alise> Or is it already running?
21:06:05 <alise> pikhq: BTW, my music server -- I'm wondering what kind of API to expose for clients to connect to.
21:06:13 <Phantom_Hoover> And since I think it should be section-symmetric, TR + TR = £.
21:06:16 <alise> pikhq: I'm thinkin' "just use proper, decent, simple RESTful HTTP".
21:06:24 <alise> Because why bother inventing a socket protocol
21:06:50 <alise> WASH YOURSELF DOWN WITH SOAP, NEVER REST
21:06:52 <cpressey> SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAPPPPP
21:06:53 <alise> SOAP YOURSELF FOREVER
21:07:37 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Drat. I thought pound was new and exciting
21:08:46 <cpressey> alise: in case it was not obvious, SOAP is aaaaawful.
21:08:57 <alise> cpressey: I am well aware :)
21:09:22 <alise> cpressey: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/soap/simple
21:10:12 <alise> you can't possibly have read it all in that time!
21:11:57 <cpressey> what IS new to me is that ESR has an entire HARMFUL domain
21:12:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, with the quaternary C thing, .01 + .01 = .111....
21:12:19 <alise> cpressey: that's not esr
21:12:34 <alise> angry libertarian plan-9 blowhard -- but fuzzy inside, supposedly
21:12:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what's .01+0.2
21:14:11 <alise> i thought this was trinary
21:15:58 <alise> this does not look like addition to me
21:17:16 <alise> pikhq: You -- design a decent query language.
21:19:26 <alise> pikhq: I am now running the tclkit server. Yay.
21:26:05 <alise> cpressey: why is lua naff?
21:27:10 <pikhq> Hah. To celebrate the 65th anniversary of the founding of the Worker's Party of Korea, North Korea is now on the Internet.
21:27:57 <alise> pikhq: Like, they have internet access??
21:28:02 <alise> They've always had a website.
21:28:04 <alise> cpressey: Err, yes?
21:28:05 <pikhq> alise: Internet access.
21:28:14 <alise> pikhq: Restricted to three people?
21:28:29 <Gregor> Restricted to three WEB SITES.
21:28:35 <alise> cpressey: One-based array indexing, verbose control structures, metatable insanity, and lack of non-float numbers (iirc)
21:28:41 <pikhq> They're also running a TLD.
21:28:47 <alise> library is hopeless
21:29:04 <alise> WANT TO REGISTER .KP NOW
21:29:20 <pikhq> (it's been up for 3 years, but until now it was administered outside of North Korea, and only hosted sites outside of North Korea)
21:29:34 <alise> "Since Sept. 2010 the .kp ccTLD infrastructure is unreachable."
21:30:00 <pikhq> Today, they brought it up domestically.
21:30:10 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_North_Korea
21:30:25 <pikhq> It's called "breaking news".
21:30:28 <alise> "Satellite Internet coverage from BGAN and Thuraya is available, offering download speeds up to 492 kbit/s and upload speeds of 400 kbit/s; however it would be extremely difficult to smuggle a satellite terminal into the country.[1] The one Internet cafe in Pyongyang uses a satellite Internet connection, as do some of the more upmarket hotels."
21:30:45 <alise> [[In 2002, North Koreans, in collaboration with a South Korean company, started a gambling site targeting South Korean customers (online gambling being illegal in South Korea), but the site has since been closed down.[2]]]
21:31:34 <pikhq> ... *There is no censorship on it*.
21:31:42 <cpressey> i don't mind the 1-based indexing, the control structures are at least proper words (not "elif" or "fi"), ignore metatables, and floats-only hurts very few programs and enables simplicity and smallness in implementation
21:33:43 <alise> cpressey: okay, show me an http server in lua
21:35:05 <alise> pikhq: Have you ever played Canabalt?
21:35:59 <cpressey> alise: http://keplerproject.github.com/xavante/ is the "usual" one. I last saw it when it was 1.x.. I don't know if they've improved it since then, or if it has gotten bad.
21:36:14 <alise> cpressey: I mean, a simple one.
21:36:16 <cheater00> http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/oct/09/insane-clown-posse-christians-god
21:36:40 <alise> pikhq: http://adamatomic.com/canabalt/
21:37:32 <pikhq> They went ahead and hooked their domestic intranet to the Internet.
21:37:40 <cpressey> alise: http://www.steve.org.uk/Software/lua-httpd/src/httpd.lua ? half of it is comments
21:37:59 <pikhq> I give North Korea another year of existence.
21:38:15 <alise> cpressey: lawl "mode: C++"
21:38:22 <alise> -- A simple HTTP server written in Lua, using the socket primitives
21:38:22 <alise> -- in 'libhttpd.so'.
21:38:27 <alise> WHY AREN'T THERE SOCKET PRIMITIVES IN THE STANDARD LIBRARY
21:38:49 <alise> cpressey: So, tell me why Lua is better than Io. :P
21:39:00 <cpressey> alise: BECAUSE THERE AREN'T EVEN FULL REGEXPS IN THE STANDARD LIBRARY
21:39:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, can you write a complex quaternisation function? I cannot muster the strength.
21:39:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: nothx
21:39:24 <alise> cpressey: what's that mean
21:41:38 <cpressey> it means, why should i spend my time defending Lua from your random criticisms and comparisons with other languages
21:43:32 <alise> cpressey: because I'm interested to know if Lua actually has any merit?
21:44:34 <cpressey> some people have used it and continue to do so
21:45:25 <cpressey> if you don't think it has any merit, ... that's your perogative
21:47:25 <alise> cpressey: sheesh, i'm just asking for reasons why you like it as opposed to other things
21:47:32 <alise> it's not the inquisition
21:50:31 <cpressey> alise: Right now, I like it because it's not Python.
21:50:48 <Gregor> <cpressey> Same reason I like COBOL.
21:51:27 <alise> I have a feeling I'd dislike Lua for the same reasons I dislike Io, but amplified.
21:51:45 <Gregor> So, you'd like Lua SO LOUD right now.
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21:53:55 <alise> Gregor: That meme is going to get SO OLD right now.
21:57:35 <alise> pikhq: Please convince me not to make a language. Oh god.
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22:07:08 <alise> coffeescript weirds me out
22:07:15 <alise> it's like someone took js and made it too sweet
22:07:19 <alise> and now it's bad if you're code-diabetic
22:09:35 <alise> code diabetic is so a thing, Gregor
22:10:17 <pikhq> alise: You shouldn't make a language because you will then continue to make your own everything.
22:10:31 <pikhq> alise: And you won't get any of it done.
22:10:33 <alise> pikhq: Dude, I'll continue to do that anyway.
22:10:46 <alise> pikhq: Okay, then what language do I use? :P
22:10:59 <Gregor> Yeah, you'll become me.
22:11:02 <Gregor> That's totally a bad idea.
22:12:21 <alise> "cheese programming language"; third result is cpressey
22:12:26 <alise> http://catseye.tc/projects/hunter/doc/website_hunter.html
22:12:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Who knows?
22:13:11 <alise> "This is a demonstration of how the Lua 5.0.2 interpreter can be embedded in a KLD (loadable kernel module for FreeBSD.) It isn't very useful by itself (and somewhat dangerous too, since an infinite loop in the Lua code would hang the machine,) but it shows off Lua's minimalism."
22:13:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: epigram is not useful for actual programming in the next thirty years :P
22:13:34 <Gregor> That doesn't show off Lua's minimalism at all ...
22:13:52 <Gregor> There's very little limit to what you can put in a loadable module ...
22:14:12 <alise> cpressey: what sucks about dragonfly again?
22:14:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: fff there is not a one-irc-message reply to that at all
22:14:30 <alise> Gregor: it's because the code is small methinks
22:14:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: seventy
22:15:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: can't
22:16:18 <alise> you just don't want to, for actual projects
22:17:31 <alise> cpressey: i thought you wrote that
22:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, why can't you write actual projects in Epigram?
22:18:01 <cpressey> how many dependent-typed languages are practicable at present, anyway?
22:18:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Stop asking me the same question fifty goddamn times over!
22:18:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it Epigram itself, or dependently-typed languages in general?
22:18:22 <alise> The latter, unless someone defies all my expectations in the future.
22:18:24 <alise> And I never said forever.
22:19:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Actual software has been written in extracted Coq. The same cannot be said for Agda.
22:19:09 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I always thought Coq was more of a prover than a language. (I know, I know)
22:19:19 <alise> agda is more of a masturbation than a language
22:19:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it's a perfectly nice experimental dependently-typed language (at least in theory).
22:20:03 <alise> Saving to: `dfly-x86_64-2.6.3_REL.iso.bz2'
22:20:04 <alise> 4% [> ] 10,343,094 128K/s eta 30m 4s
22:20:10 <alise> so slow. may claw own eyes out.
22:20:26 <alise> cpressey: rate feasibility of this idea: take dragonfly kernel, libc, basic userland, build distro on top
22:20:27 <cpressey> alise: PREPARE TO BE AWESOMED or something. pretty sure there's a torrent somewhere actuallyu
22:20:28 <Phantom_Hoover> But between the idiots who think that it can actually be used to prove things and the awful abuse of Unicode and the instability it's not worked very well.
22:20:43 <alise> wonder if i want release or snapshot!
22:21:15 <alise> cpressey: i tried netbsd
22:21:23 <alise> i don't believe a single program there was newer than five years old, and X didn't work.
22:21:39 <cpressey> because you have no idea the hacking they do in the kernel
22:22:14 <cpressey> a snapshot would probably destroy your network card *from within your vm instance*
22:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> "_≟_ : Decidable {A = Char} _≡_" ← This is in Agda's definition for *Char*.
22:22:39 <alise> cpressey: would melding NetBSD's kernel with dragonfly's basic userland be possible?
22:22:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well uh, that's reasonable
22:23:01 <alise> if you ignore the unicode, it's just
22:23:14 <alise> is_eq : Decidable Char equal
22:23:19 <alise> well, you know the rest
22:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, since when was equals-with-hook an oft-used symbol.
22:23:28 <alise> cpressey: nah, i can't find a torrent
22:23:30 <cpressey> alise: well, no, because the only places where df's userland differs significant from the others, iirc, is where it has df-specific syscalls etc
22:23:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's equals with ?
22:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> And my point is that the Unicode is pointlessly obfuscatory.
22:23:44 <alise> cpressey: yeah but they have newer shit, most likely :)
22:23:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you'd hate mathematical notation
22:23:55 <alise> if you think *that's* bad
22:25:00 <alise> cpressey: i just don't want to use the linux kernel :)
22:28:07 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:28:34 <alise> I swear that package management, configuration management and service management are all the same thing.
22:29:13 -!- wareya has joined.
22:30:09 <alise> But only as part of writing Agda libraries and the like.
22:31:04 <alise> Wow, bunzip2 is slow.
22:31:11 <Phantom_Hoover> There aren't actually many theorems in the standard lib.
22:31:12 <pikhq> Yes. lzma is faster.
22:31:24 <alise> Can I get a progress report?
22:31:55 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:32:52 <alise> cpressey: Which BSD kernel and libc/basic userland do you think is most liable for tracking in a distro? >_>
22:33:51 <Gregor> Yeah, once PureDarwin exists, sometime in 2054 or so.
22:34:22 <alise> Gregor: Fuck that shit, OpenDarwin already existed and booted so it can be done from scratch.
22:34:35 <alise> I see no reason why I can't just start from the actual Darwin source tree. :P
22:35:35 <Gregor> Newer versions of Darwin have dependencies on components that are neither open source nor distributed separate from Mac OS X.
22:37:05 <alise> Gregor: So fork DarwIn! YAAAAY PRACTICAL
22:37:24 <alise> http://7447233378926839072-a-puredarwin-org-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/puredarwin.org/puredarwin/welcome/macports_on_pd.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7cq5T0oxzuthiQdPogaqT6mtYXq9GhIGWpl72eNj8j1006-kEE0sGJOES_62ghsZ79nYjq3zPB31pep_NV3ZBIRpZSDQEpMlm_xWOYL-LoIJtJgZHp_nSt3f5mTolN3VxbfVGNOmZUK1tSSnYrUdgf8sH-DBZEIoS4FmQ9a_yXmJ6yTkvz3K6uDvTDmecIGcOtNToc454YMvYUX_pZ1sZTuwXV-PEw%3D%3D&attredirects=0
22:37:25 <Gregor> Such as http://google.com/search?q=site:puredarwin.org+blockers
22:37:29 <alise> PureDarwin on real hardware
22:37:40 <alise> Doesn't seem so blocked to me
22:37:47 <alise> With VNC, admittedly, but hey, it's XFCE.
22:37:49 <alise> And it runs MacPorts.
22:38:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:38:27 <alise> Darwin sucks, anyway.
22:39:05 <Gregor> As it turns out, taking Mach and throwing a monolithic kernel on top of it, then declaring that you use a microkernel architecture, is a silly way to build an OS.
22:39:30 <Gregor> An OS with a binary format that trades a useful feature (TLS) for a useless feature (fat binaries)
22:39:38 <alise> It sucks how the current method of creating a BSD is basically "Fork. EVERYTHING!"
22:40:05 <alise> But is there something wrong in the idea of creating a BSD distribution?
22:40:30 <alise> Then I say that that fact sucks.
22:40:37 <alise> PC-BSD is the only "BSD distro" I know of.
22:40:47 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Finland&diff=next&oldid=332117
22:40:51 <alise> And it's basically FreeBSD with a package manager and an installer.
22:41:03 <Gregor> There's Debian GNU/kFreeBSD X-P
22:41:19 <alise> Yeah, but then you have to use Debian and it's even less polished than the Linux version :P
22:41:29 <Gregor> A) Using Debian is what cool people do.
22:41:38 <Gregor> B) The real issue is then you have to use glibc!
22:41:43 <alise> Using Debian is what desperate people do.
22:41:52 <alise> cpressey: Sweet, DragonflyBSD panics when booting in VirtualBox.
22:42:32 <pikhq> There's Gentoo FreeBSD.
22:42:37 <alise> Then you have to use Gentoo.
22:42:51 <pikhq> (not GNU/kFreeBSD. It's FreeBSD with Portage.)
22:42:52 <Gregor> And Gentoo's package system isn't appreciably different from ports anyway.
22:43:10 <pikhq> Gregor: Ports is a bunch of BSD makefiles. ... Seriously, that's it.
22:43:27 <Gregor> OK, so portage is the port concept minus the suckiness :P
22:43:37 <alise> portage has nothing to do with ports
22:43:38 <Gregor> I keep forgetting how much FreeBSD sucks.
22:43:41 <alise> and it baffles me why anyone thinks it does
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22:44:14 <pikhq> alise: Well, Portage is *inspired by* Ports.
22:44:30 <pikhq> And people think it goes further than that.
22:44:46 <alise> I see what you mean.
22:45:11 <alise> Every time anyone says the words "USE flags", I want to punch them.
22:45:14 <Gregor> portage tastes like elephant ears.
22:45:21 <pikhq> Portage is "take the basic concept of a source-based packaging system and do EVERYTHING ELSE DIFFERENTLY".
22:45:48 <Gregor> portage tastes like salt-water taffy?
22:45:55 <alise> "If you use the DVD, you can login as root and start a GUI with 'startx'." Note: lie
22:46:06 <alise> I guess it's a CD, not a DVD, but they don't link to any DVDs.
22:46:09 <pikhq> Which is, obviously, completely and utterly different from Ports. :)
22:46:16 <alise> MD5 (dfly-gui-i386-2.6.1_REL.img.bz2) = (not yet available)
22:46:21 <Gregor> alise: You can only startx if you burn it to a DVD.
22:46:38 <alise> cpressey: so is this really your installer?
22:46:53 <alise> Apparently it's experimental.
22:47:45 <alise> WARNING: HAMMER filesystems less than 50GB are not recommended!
22:48:20 <alise> Gregor: Apparently I may have to prune-everything a lot or something.
22:48:27 <alise> I guess it's to do with the storage model and the journalling and stuff.
22:48:38 <alise> Still, fifty gigs?!
22:51:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone give me random pairs of quaternary numbers in the interval [0.1].
22:52:27 <Vorpal> hm clang in static analyzer mode is reaaaaaaaaaaaally slow
22:52:40 <Vorpal> only to be expected though
22:52:50 <Vorpal> but it does make using it a bit more painful for large projects
22:53:23 <Gregor> I assume the "interval" [0.1] is from 0.1 to 0.1, inclusive?
22:54:16 <oerjan> ...what's a quaternary number
22:54:29 <Gregor> A number in base-4, presumably.
22:55:00 <Gregor> (So 0.1 is 0.25 decimal)
22:55:16 <cpressey> alise: i have no idea if it is anymore or not
22:56:06 <cpressey> alise: use the freebsd userland. it'd be the most... what's the word
22:56:41 <cpressey> there are other "BSD distros"... MidnightBSD, I think, is one
22:57:28 <cpressey> because they insist on having a "base system" instead of putting the core userland, etc in packages
22:59:09 <cpressey> the HAMMER filesystem? is first i've heard of it but I'd guess it is HARDCORE JOURNALING FILESYSTEM MADNESS
22:59:56 <pikhq> alise: Had any luck with '95?
23:02:55 -!- augur has joined.
23:07:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:20:14 <alise> pikhq: i suggest purchasing the cd
23:21:05 <alise> cpressey: does your installer have an ascii dragonfly on a blue background in the background?
23:22:11 <alise> pikhq: Why aren't all inits service managers?
23:22:43 <Ilari> Seems like using IPv6 ocassionally has wonky problems. Like some sites being very slow to load even through system DOES have working IPv6 connectivity.
23:23:43 <pikhq> Ilari: That's because there's fewer IPv6 routes.
23:24:01 <Ilari> Looks almost like packets get dropped somewhere because of routing trouble.
23:27:20 -!- augur has joined.
23:28:10 <Ilari> BUT: AFAICT, the sent packets do make it out the LAN to the next gateway with proper return address.
23:31:11 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:31:22 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:32:18 <alise> (and why did you leave *sniff*)
23:32:23 <alise> cpressey: have you met oklopol before?
23:32:28 <alise> oklopol: stay wasted if it makes you come back.
23:34:07 <oklopol> how long have i veen absent
23:34:50 <alise> well you popped in
23:34:53 <alise> a few months ago like august
23:34:59 <alise> before that... months and months
23:35:03 <oklopol> cpressey and i met once, he was talking about groups and i was disagreeing
23:35:22 <alise> cpressey, how dare you :|
23:35:24 <oklopol> i'm a horrible person ain't i
23:35:34 <alise> no cpressey was the evil one here.
23:35:49 <oklopol> cpressey was the evil that lead to my absense?
23:35:57 <cpressey> alise: have. i. met. oklopol. before.
23:36:09 <alise> "Does the Pope shit in the woods?? Is a bear catholic??"
23:36:23 <oklopol> i hope i'll have more time once university settles down a bit
23:36:26 <alise> oklopol: are you sure you mean disagreeing, rather than waging nuclear war on
23:37:02 <oklopol> well i'm not sure i said anything, i just recall cpressey said something about that b... thing i disagreed about
23:37:18 <alise> cpressey: so do you hate him or not :D
23:37:52 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:38:06 <alise> oklopol: i have written some python that will make you proud
23:38:14 <oklopol> anyone here know nivat's conjecture
23:38:28 * alise shuffles, points to oerjan
23:38:42 <alise> oklopol: http://pastie.org/1210292.txt?key=hcfdup8hv8dd9hovd40myw this is a game! written in python!
23:38:47 <oklopol> haha because it's like norway
23:38:49 <alise> it is coded exactly like you code verything
23:38:56 <alise> i hope you appreciate my skillz
23:39:19 <oklopol> you do realize i don't code *anything* nowadays
23:39:24 -!- jcp has joined.
23:39:25 <alise> oklopol: well yes but
23:39:27 <cpressey> oklopol: were you also who kept making me explain better why i thought there was no ring-language?
23:39:28 <alise> oklopol: shut up and admire my program
23:39:47 <oklopol> cpressey: sounds like something i would do
23:40:45 <oklopol> alise: tbh i don't see what that does, some sort of rogue?
23:41:15 <alise> oklopol: it abuses integer division and wildly uses booleans as integers
23:41:18 <alise> because that's just how i roll.
23:41:28 <alise> oklopol: it's pretty fun, try playing it
23:41:40 <alise> the monsters don't even bother you right now, how cool is that
23:41:48 <oklopol> first time in like 3 years
23:41:59 <alise> "Why are there cans of dogfood everywhere?"
23:42:01 <oklopol> (unless you count my gf's friends)
23:42:07 <alise> damn i hope that's the right number
23:42:36 <oklopol> i would love to try it, but it's not a program, it's just text!
23:42:53 <alise> omg i think i may have been on wifi all this time.
23:42:59 <alise> oklopol: save it as vagrant.py
23:43:02 <alise> then run it with python :|
23:43:49 <alise> oklopol: wait are you on windows?
23:43:54 <alise> it may not work if so.
23:44:17 <oklopol> saved it as vagrant.pyu because of my mention-worthy drunkenness
23:45:08 <alise> you right click on them
23:45:18 <alise> or press f2, that might work
23:45:21 <alise> after having selected it
23:45:42 <oklopol> i don't know where folder options is in vista...
23:46:25 <oklopol> it's .txt and windows has this retarded "show user the suffix but don't let them change it" thing
23:46:32 <alise> oklopol: it probably won't work on windows
23:46:44 <alise> since windows python doesn't ship with curses because it's fucktarded
23:47:46 <oklopol> but turns out the problem i mentioned does have a rather intuitive solution
23:48:13 <oklopol> you can just change the suffix if you like, i don't know why i couldn't the first time i tried
23:48:38 <oklopol> yeah doesn't ship with curses said it
23:49:31 <alise> oklopol: do you have the ability to install something
23:49:33 <alise> or are you too drunk
23:49:51 <oklopol> i guess i could install curses
23:49:56 <alise> http://adamv.com/dev/python/curses/
23:50:31 <oklopol> it seems my avast is still pirate
23:50:47 <Ilari> Logic circuits that work at 500 degC using microelectromechanics... Aren't there semiconductor circuit technologies (very exotic) that work at 750 degC?
23:51:45 <alise> oklopol: quick guide to playing vagrant while you attempt to install wcurses.
23:52:09 <alise> hjkl is left/down/up/right, yubn is diagonals, you can figure out those yourself
23:52:18 <alise> % is food, boosts S, S gets to zero, you lose 50 hp/turn
23:52:19 <oerjan> being drunk _should_ help with cursing
23:52:27 <alise> ! is potion, adds to the meter that comes after HP
23:52:32 <alise> Q is inactive enemy
23:52:47 <alise> q takes hp from the counter after the hp, adds it to hp, helps with hallucination a bit, and shit
23:52:59 <alise> if you eat food, 1/15 chance of being rotten
23:53:03 <alise> takes a little bit of hp off
23:53:04 <alise> and you hallucinate
23:53:11 <alise> for the next 85-115 turns
23:53:23 <alise> oklopol: oh, and enter dismisses a message if you wanna see the status bar
23:53:30 <alise> or if your cursor goes after a message any key dismisses it and lets you move
23:53:30 <oklopol> copy it to your "site-packages directory" what the fuck is a site packages directory :D
23:53:34 <alise> (otherwise it's not a blocking message)
23:53:39 <alise> oklopol: wherever python is\lib\site-packages
23:53:48 <alise> oklopol: and finally, any other key skips a turn.
23:54:12 <alise> also, hallucination is AWESOME
23:54:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:54:44 <alise> <alise> if you eat food, 1/15 chance of being rotten
23:54:44 <alise> <alise> takes a little bit of hp off
23:54:44 <alise> <alise> and you hallucinate
23:54:46 <oklopol> are you still in that institution thing
23:55:09 <alise> oh yeah and holding down enter is useful since you can usually make out what the tiles are, when hallucinating
23:55:14 <alise> since it re-hallucinates
23:55:17 <alise> oklopol: "i'm out"
23:55:31 <alise> something like that, yes
23:55:45 <alise> this happened like a month or two ago :P
23:55:58 <alise> oklopol: they kicked me out for being insufficiently crazy
23:56:10 <alise> note: joke stolen from ais523
23:56:40 <oklopol> okay, well anyway that's pretty cool
23:56:57 <oklopol> i figured once in always in
23:57:44 <alise> cpressey: what the FUCK is packet mode
23:58:15 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:58:53 <alise> lemme guess, something isn't working
23:58:55 <oklopol> maybe i'm too drunk for curses because i pressed the button and your program still won't run!
23:59:17 <oklopol> well probably it says curses isn't installed, i didn't look
23:59:50 <cpressey> alise: heh. um... i knew, once
00:00:02 <cpressey> alise: what is it that wants to be in packet mode, again?
00:00:05 <oklopol> Traceback (most recent call last):
00:00:05 <oklopol> File "C:\stuff\vagrant.py", line 2, in <module>
00:00:05 <oklopol> File "C:\stuff\curses\__init__.py", line 7, in <module>
00:00:06 <oklopol> ImportError: DLL load failed: The specified module could not be found.
00:00:23 <alise> oklopol: oh right that. yeah. that doesn't seem to work. sometimes. wait a sec.
00:00:54 <oklopol> it would be weird if it worked, i just downloaded something called curses into a random directory...
00:01:14 <alise> oklopol: no, you installed it properly
00:01:17 <alise> it's a problem with the package
00:01:20 <alise> okay the pyd is there, so
00:01:53 <cpressey> "Packet mode is on Facebook" "Sign up for Facebook to connect with Packet mode."
00:02:08 <alise> oklopol: wait do you have cygwin?
00:02:10 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:02:13 <oklopol> does alise have a facebook page?
00:02:24 <oklopol> alise: i... don't remember :D
00:02:28 <alise> no. well technically yes but the last time i used it i just played go terribly
00:02:45 <alise> oklopol: if you do, start the setup program and just tick python, and ncurses
00:02:51 <alise> oklopol: well it would be a lot easier
00:02:51 <Vorpal> okay clang-analyzer is silly, it is first assuming a parameter to the function is false in an if test, then in another if test on the same parameter a bit later assuming it is true
00:02:58 <alise> http://cygwin.com/setup.exe
00:02:59 <Vorpal> and it has obviously not been changed in between
00:03:03 <Vorpal> or could have been changed even
00:03:11 <alise> you just need to tick python and ncurses; and obviously you love my program enough to do this
00:03:27 <alise> oklopol: btw if you're wondering why Vorpal is so boring, it's because he's AnMaster
00:03:50 <Vorpal> alise, and stop trolling
00:04:06 <alise> i don't think you know what trolling means
00:04:14 <Vorpal> alise, I do know, and you are doing that atm
00:04:24 <oklopol> sure you are, i mean you can't seriously think AnMaster is boring
00:04:47 <alise> yeah i must just be trying to rile him up because i'm so jealous of how interesting he is
00:04:49 <oklopol> anyway the first thing you said last time i entered was "...and AnMaster is Vorpal now, things have changed surely much yes"
00:04:53 <cpressey> yes. what an absurd position to take. you must be trolling.
00:04:57 <alise> can you imagine meeting him in person? all the sparkly ideas
00:05:00 <alise> bouncing out of him
00:05:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, mentioning it all the time is trolling however
00:05:14 <Vorpal> and that is what alise is doing
00:05:25 <alise> i mentioned it once before you misused "trolling"
00:05:32 <alise> oklopol: "changed surely much yes" wat
00:05:35 <alise> what was i thinking
00:05:44 <alise> oklopol: from what i said
00:05:56 <alise> <oklopol> anyway the first thing you said last time i entered was "...and AnMaster is Vorpal now, things have changed surely much yes"
00:06:28 <alise> oklopol: are you installing cygwin, drunkard
00:06:43 <alise> <oklopol> anyway the first thing you said last time i entered was "...and AnMaster is Vorpal now, things have changed surely much yes"
00:06:44 <alise> you just said that
00:06:53 <alise> then i replied "changed surely much yes"
00:06:57 <alise> quoting the extract
00:07:01 <alise> to highlight its incomprehensibility
00:07:07 <alise> oklopol: stop faking drunkenness
00:07:30 <oklopol> actually what i was doing was not correcting my spelling
00:07:33 <alise> oklopol: no seriously though, cygwin. tick python and ncurses. for peace and family!
00:07:45 <oklopol> but i'll correct it from now in
00:08:27 <alise> oklopol: man you are going to find this *so* disappointing. unless you love games without challenge
00:08:27 <oklopol> haven't ticked anything, it didn't ask yet, and it's already installing all kinds of crap
00:08:31 <alise> cpressey: RIGHT what is it, i enabled it
00:08:35 <alise> it was enabled by default
00:08:39 <alise> oklopol: um it should have provided a list
00:08:45 <alise> at a previous step
00:08:45 <oklopol> games without challenge are so coolsome
00:08:52 <alise> oklopol: it's probably just downloading the list
00:08:56 <cpressey> alise: um. everything in BSD-land is ancient. Good luck finding hardware where it makes a stitch of difference
00:08:56 <alise> if not, cancel and trya gain
00:09:01 <alise> cpressey: what is it.
00:09:14 <oklopol> it's currently asking where i want to download from
00:09:22 <alise> oklopol: yeah just pick any. probably one in finland
00:09:23 <oklopol> i thought it was listing what it's currently downloading
00:09:39 <alise> cpressey: do i want cp850 or iso keyboard map :|
00:09:41 <alise> YOU CLEARLY KNOW THIS
00:09:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:10:03 <cpressey> alise: http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/cgi/web-man?command=boot0cfg§ion=8
00:10:11 <oklopol> chose a random one, didn't see a .fi
00:10:19 <alise> oklopol: it's quite a lot to download
00:10:21 <alise> i would have chosen a .se
00:10:26 <alise> swedish servers are fast for some reason
00:12:30 <oklopol> okay i'm downloading something now
00:12:41 <oklopol> i don't know what it is, but something definitely
00:12:54 <alise> oklopol: it's like 100 megs to download
00:12:56 <alise> if you picked a slow server
00:12:58 <alise> this will never finish
00:13:22 <oklopol> i picked a random one as i said
00:13:30 <alise> oklopol: go back and pick an .se
00:13:37 <alise> oklopol: that's just the package list!
00:13:41 <alise> that finishes in about 5s for me
00:13:49 <alise> you need a good mirror :P
00:14:26 <oklopol> speed is like 200 kB/s afaik
00:14:59 <alise> that should be fine then
00:15:19 <alise> oklopol: anyway once it goes to the list just use the searchy thing to search for python, tick that, then ncurses, tick that too
00:15:27 <alise> you wanna pick like the latest one if it lists a few
00:16:01 <alise> oklopol: but my gaem
00:16:10 <oklopol> that's very important, yes
00:16:18 <alise> oklopol: will you return :|
00:16:31 <alise> oklopol: NO YOU MUST
00:17:07 <oklopol> university takes pretty much all my time
00:17:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
00:17:21 <alise> oklopol: just combine drinking and #esoteric
00:18:04 <oklopol> when i'm drunk people are very interesting
00:18:07 <alise> oklopol: forfeit all social interaction
00:18:16 <oklopol> byt when i'm not, i just try to solve things
00:18:40 <oklopol> for me, #esoteric is the social interaction
00:18:44 <alise> solve enjoying #esoteric
00:19:06 <alise> oklopol: i will totally come to turku sometime
00:19:18 <alise> well helsinki looks like more fun, but i guess i could go to turku too
00:19:39 <oklopol> except being a researcher is mostly talking to the other researchers, although mostly it's them talking and me thinking about math
00:20:03 <oklopol> well i would definitely LOVE seeing you
00:20:11 <alise> never have you sounded more sarcastic
00:20:26 <alise> maybe i'll just blow turku up
00:20:31 <oklopol> well in any case that's true
00:20:39 <oklopol> it would be cool to meet your
00:21:01 <alise> oklopol: HOWS CYGWYN
00:21:23 <alise> oklopol: wait did you select python and ncurses
00:21:43 <oklopol> there was some sort of selecting thing
00:21:53 <alise> oklopol: was there curses
00:22:03 <alise> oklopol: well whatever it might work
00:22:05 <alise> start a cygwin shell
00:22:10 <alise> it's in your start menu somewhere
00:22:12 <alise> cygwin bash or whatever
00:22:24 <alise> oklopol: then cd /cygdrive/c/path/to/vagrant
00:22:30 <alise> then python vagrant.py
00:23:47 <alise> /usr/bin/python vagrant.py
00:23:49 <alise> omg quaffing has a bug
00:24:39 <oklopol> i'm going to go sleep soon btw
00:24:43 <alise> oklopol: okay in vagrant.py
00:24:53 <alise> then the bug will be gone
00:25:07 <alise> oklopol: does the /usr/bin/python one work?
00:25:38 <alise> oklopol: ff what happens
00:26:28 <alise> oklopol: WE ARE SO CLOSE TO SOLVING THE WORLD
00:26:52 <alise> oklopol: WHAT HAPPENZ
00:27:00 <alise> oklopol: even with /usr/bin?
00:27:15 <alise> /usr/bin/python vagrant.py
00:27:32 <alise> no, that's simply not possible
00:27:38 <alise> are you sure you entered that exactly :|
00:27:42 <alise> oklopol: okay where did you put wcurses
00:28:08 <alise> oklopol: THAT CURSES FOR WINDOWS YOU COPIED SOMEWHERE
00:28:15 <alise> where did you put it
00:30:06 <alise> oklopol: where is ptyhon26
00:30:19 <alise> just delete the curses folder
00:30:24 <alise> in c:\python26\lib\site-packages
00:30:28 <alise> and then try again
00:31:47 <alise> oklopol: try the python line again
00:31:50 <alise> /usr/bin/python vagrant.py
00:31:53 <oklopol> i deleted *a* curses folder
00:32:01 <oklopol> but not the one in site-packages
00:32:17 <alise> oklopol: undo that.
00:32:26 <alise> oklopol: actually it doesn't matter
00:32:29 <alise> you know c:\python26?
00:32:33 <alise> nuke that whole directory.
00:32:53 <oklopol> i won't, there's a couple progs of mine thar
00:32:59 <alise> oklopol: okay just delete
00:33:06 <alise> that should work fine
00:33:51 <alise> oklopol: trust me, i'm a scientist.
00:33:55 <alise> no, it's full of files from evil python
00:33:57 <alise> we want lovely cygwin python
00:34:05 <alise> evil python files are infecting cygwin python's brains
00:34:06 <alise> and making it dumb
00:34:33 <alise> coppro: HOW IS THE PUBLICATION OF MY MATHNEWS ARTICLE GOING EH
00:34:33 <coppro> fall prey to the mind control
00:34:42 <coppro> alise: guess it didn't make this issue?
00:35:06 <coppro> alise: it might come back for a later issue
00:35:07 <alise> oklopol: now try the command
00:35:17 <alise> coppro: the website hasn't been updated, sheesh!
00:35:20 <alise> such unprofessionalism
00:35:22 <oklopol> wait actually it takes a while to remove 2000 files
00:35:24 <alise> this is exactly what i was complaining about
00:35:32 <coppro> alise: also sort of the point
00:35:37 <oklopol> okay still no module WCurses
00:35:45 <alise> oklopol: that's, literally physically impossible
00:35:53 <alise> oklopol: the traceback it gives
00:35:54 <alise> what files does it list
00:35:56 <alise> apart from vagrant.py
00:36:09 <coppro> I BELIEVE IN THE POWER FUNCTION!
00:36:32 <alise> coppro: i suggest you boycott that evil paper
00:36:39 <oklopol> vagrant.py, from curses import blah
00:36:46 <alise> oklopol: the FILES
00:36:48 <alise> that aren't vagrant.py
00:37:08 <alise> but __init__.py WHERE
00:37:25 <alise> oklopol: I NEED TO KNOW THE PATH
00:37:38 <alise> the stuff is important :p
00:38:33 <oklopol> /cygdrive/c/stuff/curses/__init__.py
00:38:41 <alise> oklopol: WHAT IS STUFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
00:40:02 <oklopol> i call my main folder suff.
00:40:15 <alise> curses shouldn't be right in there
00:40:19 <alise> oklopol: remove stuff/curses
00:40:23 <alise> remove that whole directory
00:41:00 <alise> do you remember what i said
00:41:13 <alise> <alise> after the line
00:41:13 <alise> <alise> if k=='q':
00:41:13 <alise> <alise> q=min(P,20)
00:41:13 <alise> <alise> then the bug will be gone
00:41:14 <oklopol> although it still says there's no WCurses
00:41:16 <alise> oklopol: did you do this?
00:41:31 <alise> oklopol: wait, what?
00:41:42 <alise> /usr/bin/python vagrant.py
00:41:45 <alise> that should definitely work
00:41:59 <alise> oklopol: do you remember the controls and what things are and shit
00:42:03 <alise> if not i can copy-paste :LP
00:44:02 <oklopol> i'll complete the game tomorrow
00:44:08 <oklopol> .>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
00:45:40 <alise> oklopol: IT IS SUCH FUNS
00:45:44 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:45:45 <alise> oklopol: come in here tomorrow :|
00:48:30 -!- augur has joined.
00:49:24 <alise> cpressey: it doesn't boot!
00:49:25 <alise> cpressey: fix yer installer
00:50:20 <alise> cpressey: DRAT, FOILED AGAIN
00:50:25 <cpressey> also, that's the boot block's problem
00:50:35 <alise> it won't start smtpd or something
00:50:38 <alise> apparently this is a boot-blocking error
00:50:41 <alise> (what is it about BSDs that attracts drama, btw?)
00:50:53 <cpressey> oh well then it boots, it just doesn't... start up
00:51:05 <alise> most useless distinction evar
00:51:12 <alise> hey safe mode seems to work
00:51:23 <alise> cpressey: WILL YOU USE MY BSD/LINUX (I HAVE NO IDEA WHICH YET) DISTRIBUTION
00:51:27 <alise> it will be all the puppies
00:51:30 <alise> all the flowers and kittens
00:51:32 <cpressey> IF YOU CAN GET TO MINED, IT BOOTS
00:51:44 <alise> in fact it may just be distributed as kitten-version.iso
00:52:07 <alise> kitten, nice name for an os
00:52:11 <alise> much better than Quadrant (my first thought)
00:52:37 <alise> oh it boots just with yelly error messages that hide the login prompt
00:52:39 <alise> until you press enter
00:53:09 <cpressey> at one point i wanted to strip the Dragonfly userland to the bare minimum and distribute a (then-)flash-drive sized distro of it
00:53:14 <alise> cpressey: features: everything is a service! stupid init system all gone, instead process 1 is just a nice service management system (think "# ctl start x11")
00:53:19 <cpressey> get it? and there actually is such an insect
00:53:26 <alise> probably non-glibc for at least most stuff
00:53:29 <alise> maybe statically linked (probably not)
00:53:34 <alise> bsd userland, or at least a minimal one
00:53:44 <alise> cpressey: hur hur :P
00:54:14 <alise> cpressey: did it ever get anywhere?
00:54:40 <cpressey> alise: have they packageized the base system yet?
00:54:44 <alise> oh, extra feature: probably some sort of pre-assembled configuration of a panel program and i guess a file manager, constituting the "desktop environment"
00:54:50 <alise> cpressey: very much doubt it
00:55:01 <cpressey> there are so many old programs in there no one the fuck uses
00:55:09 <alise> <alise> oh, extra feature: probably some sort of pre-assembled configuration of a panel program and i guess a file manager, constituting the "desktop environment"
00:55:10 <alise> as a package that is
00:55:12 <cpressey> supporting ancient and obscure hardware
00:55:44 <cpressey> so, for that reason alone, i would lean towards, if you have a bsd userland, make it a package
00:55:45 <alise> oh and there may be some merging of the concepts of a package manager and a system configuration manager, and maybe even services manager
00:55:49 <alise> but that's much more up in the air
00:55:55 <alise> cpressey: everything will be a package, more or less.
00:55:58 <alise> the kernel won't be
00:56:00 <zzo38> Will use *my* LINUX DISTIBUTION (if/when I write it)?
00:56:12 <alise> maybe one or two things in /bin that the system needs to even start will be in one package like ultra-base
00:56:21 <alise> zzo38: probably not.
00:56:26 <zzo38> It won't have all the puppies and flowers and kittens. (If you want those, you have to get them separately)
00:56:38 <alise> see, this is why i wouldn't use it!
00:56:45 <alise> i like puppies and flowers and kittens!
00:56:57 <alise> cpressey: oh yeah, and general system ethos of... not breaking, ever
00:57:11 <zzo38> alise: That's why? You can still get them separately, you should be able to use them compatible, with background picture or whatever....
00:57:25 <alise> oh and packages that really suck like x11 and the like will probably come with some sort of helping aids to make them less terrible to administer
00:57:37 <alise> zzo38: But I need puppies and flowers and kittens.
00:57:44 <alise> How could I even install them if I didn't have them? I need them to use any system!
00:58:12 <zzo38> alise: You can use your distribution. For my distribution, if you want puppies and flowers and kittens, you have to get it separately. It is not part of the distribution, but that doesn't mean it is incompatible.
00:58:32 <alise> cpressey: it's also possible that the system will be run entirely from ram.
00:58:37 <pikhq> Mmkay. So far, I have discovered that everything ever hates me.
00:58:56 <zzo38> I might write most of the new programs using Enhanced CWEB. Now, this Linux distribution is not only a operating system, it is also a book.
00:58:57 <alise> zzo38: But how could I get it? I'd have to use a distribution to do that. And if I use yours, it won't have puppies and flowers and kittens, so I won't be able to use it even for the second it takes me to get them.
00:59:33 <zzo38> alise: Ah, then don't use it, if you don't want to..... or, just make a modified distribution using some other system to make the modifications with..... whichever way you prefer
01:00:00 <cpressey> you will need to use the autopuppifier download tool
01:00:03 <zzo38> If you want pictures, put the pictures on USB memory or so on.
01:00:04 <alise> I think I'll stick to kitten OS
01:00:08 <alise> zzo38: no pictures
01:00:13 <alise> and flowers, and puppies
01:00:24 <zzo38> alise: OK, do that if you want to.
01:00:25 <alise> in my operating system
01:03:19 <alise> cpressey: lame, it doesn't do qemu's network
01:03:23 <alise> or i configured it wrong >_>
01:05:10 <alise> cpressey: "As of 1.4, DragonFly uses the NetBSD Packages Collection pkgsrc (http://www.netbsd.org/docs/software/packages.html) for third-party software."
01:11:42 * alise uses aria2c to download PC-BSD from all mirrors at once
01:11:47 <zzo38> I have explained before that I planned to call my distribution "ArcaneLinux", and explained the codename scheme used. Some people figured it out, other people think the theme doesn't match itself. (alise: What codename scheme do you plan?)
01:11:57 <alise> what is the scheme
01:13:14 <zzo38> alise: The scheme is that the second version might be called "Illimitable Illithid" and the sixth version called "Vancouver Island", and so on.
01:13:43 <alise> I don't plan a codename scheme, as I don't plan to have releases, just updates.
01:14:01 <alise> The installer CD will probably be rebuilt whenever it stops working or gets out of date in some noticeable way.
01:14:14 <alise> So from about one to three months, I would guess.
01:15:56 <alise> Those would just be given YYYY-MM release dates, almost certainly.
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01:18:06 <alise> pikhq: Hey -- were you the one who knew stuff about ksplice?
01:18:23 <alise> or was that a #nixos guy
01:19:04 <alise> pikhq: Ooh, scratch that. I just had an idea.
01:19:19 <alise> pikhq: If you did a hibernate-type-thing, would it be possible to omit the kernel memory, and then have the new kernel restore it?
01:19:27 <alise> Thus having a reboot but keeping everything started up.
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01:23:10 <pikhq> alise: Only if you could somehow make it keep track of the kernel *state*.
01:24:01 <alise> pikhq: I wish ksplice was something you could port to another kernel in, like, days.
01:24:05 <alise> Stupid bad system design.
01:24:13 <alise> pikhq: I guess I'll just stick to supporting a kexec reboot method.
01:25:58 <cpressey> alise: guess what. i left when they decided to use pkgsrc
01:26:30 <cpressey> there were like two or three people involved in the project who were trying to build a new package system, too
01:26:55 <alise> you know, the last thing i'd have expected from you is for you to have written an installer and stuff for a bsd variant
01:27:05 <alise> are you suer it was you?
01:27:27 <cpressey> alise: it's in Lua, too! ooooo!
01:27:49 <alise> oh that's why it sucks then
01:28:33 <cpressey> have you ever used freebsd's installer?
01:29:46 <pikhq> alise: So, the way to get a Win2k VM in Qemu is apparently to install it in VirtualBox and convert the disk image.
01:31:27 <alise> Why not just use it in VirtualBox?
01:31:41 <alise> cpressey: pc-bsds is probably decent since it's all modern and graphical, even if that's irritating
01:31:49 <alise> cpressey: kitten's installer will be nice :D
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01:32:35 <alise> cpressey: what was the old installer like:?
01:32:45 <pikhq> alise: Because qemu is significantly more flexible.
01:33:01 <alise> pikhq: why would you want flexible win2k :p
01:33:13 <pikhq> alise: And VirtualBox doesn't really let you go and just create a hard disk image that's a copy-on-write clone of another one.
01:33:41 <alise> pikhq: are you replacing wine or something :)
01:34:00 <pikhq> Well, not all programs run on WINE.
01:34:23 <cpressey> alise: you mean dfbsd? it didn't have one. it just came with instructions for how to do an install using unix commands
01:34:32 <pikhq> Whereas the only limitation with qemu is that it doesn't emulate 3D hardware.
01:34:38 <cpressey> from a booted livecd, of course
01:35:20 <alise> cpressey: to be honest, the installer in kitten will probably just help you partition a little, format filesystems, tell the package manager "install the base package in this root", and then do some trivial system configuration
01:35:24 <alise> i guess that's quite a lot
01:35:27 <alise> but it won't be a hugely complex prorgam
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01:36:03 <zzo38> If you make it with kitten and flower, does it have flowers that even talk?
01:36:37 <alise> flowers don't talk
01:36:48 * pikhq shall force Windows into doing his bidding! Muahahaha
01:37:04 <zzo38> alise: I know. That is why it is funny
01:37:13 <alise> well it isn't a flower then!
01:37:17 <alise> pikhq: what are you planning to do?
01:38:31 <pikhq> alise: ... Create a set of application-specific VMs.
01:38:46 <alise> pikhq: replace explorer.exe with the application >:)
01:38:54 <alise> then make the application fullscreen if possible
01:38:57 <alise> and make qemu set the window title
01:38:59 <alise> then make a launcher for it
01:39:02 <alise> voila, slowest program ever
01:39:08 <alise> pikhq: can qemu do automatic mouse capture?
01:39:10 <alise> if not, that'd be annoying
01:39:32 <alise> http://www.metasploit.com/redmine/attachments/433/get_bionic_working.diff ;; this purports to make android's libc, bionic, compile on a regular system
01:39:47 <pikhq> I'm primarily intending this for games for Windows.
01:39:50 <alise> dunno if linux or bsd
01:39:55 <alise> pikhq: right. qemu is a bit slow for that
01:40:00 <pikhq> Either 2D or sufficiently-simple-3D-that-software-rendering-doesn't-suck
01:41:16 <pikhq> "INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE"
01:41:21 <pikhq> Now *there's* an error I dislike.
01:41:53 -!- jcp has joined.
01:42:12 <alise> Exception: [FtpNegotiationCommand.cc:346] File /home/ehird/PCBSD8.1-x86-DVD.iso is being downloaded by other command.
01:42:16 <alise> i wonder why i get 394857573894579345 of those.
01:42:21 <alise> when feeding it a hueg list of http and ftp servers
01:42:49 * pikhq tries installing on qemu without KVM
01:42:57 <pikhq> (... and toggle KVM on afterwards)
01:43:18 * coppro starts singing Gilbert & Sullivan
01:43:38 <pikhq> This'll be slower than hell. Hooray.
01:44:50 <pikhq> Ah. Windows installation breaks with kqemu & kvm.
01:47:38 <wareya> Where can I find an introduction to functional programming that doesn't talk as if the reader is brand new to the idea of what functional programming is?
01:48:04 <alise> That's sort of half-contradictory.
01:48:13 <alise> I sort of get what you mean, but...
01:48:57 <pikhq> Hrm. "Setup is starting Windows 2000" for the past... 5 minutes.
01:49:06 <pikhq> I think it's lying to me.
01:49:19 <wareya> like how most imperative programming 'tutorials' start off with what variables and statements are, and don't get past them for five pages.
01:50:09 <pikhq> Motherfucking hell.
01:50:43 <pikhq> Everything hates me.
01:51:15 <alise> boo htdp, yay sicp
01:51:21 <alise> htdp is too practical and plt and BULLSHIT :|
01:51:30 <alise> Have you read your SICP today?
01:52:32 * coppro wonders if we can start a htdp/sicp flamewar
01:52:32 * alise tries to find the ascii /prog/snake
01:52:49 <coppro> it'll be the new emacs/vim
01:53:32 <alise> "I work on power management, so I'm always interested in what kind of power management functionality and interfaces people want. Plumbers included a nice discussion with someone from an embedded company I can't remember, culminating in us deciding that the existing cpufreq interface did what they wanted and so no new interfaces needed to be defined. Google was going to be an interesting case of a large company hiring people both from the embedded world and a
01:53:32 <alise> lso the existing Linux development community and then producing an embedded device that was intended to compete with the very best existing platforms. I had high hopes that this combination of factors would result in the Linux community as a whole having a better idea what the constraints and requirements for high-quality power management in the embedded world were, rather than us ending up with another pile of vendor code sitting on an FTP site somewhere in
01:53:33 <alise> Taiwan that implements its power management by passing tokenised dead mice through a wormhole.
01:53:34 <alise> To a certain extent, my hopes were fulfilled. We got a git server in California."
01:54:01 <cpressey> coppro: ML for the Working Programmer
01:54:16 <alise> Anything ending "for the Working Programmer" sounds like something to avoid.
01:54:37 <cpressey> alise: I believe it's a pun on "Category Theory for the Working Mathematician"
01:54:52 <alise> bad marketing then :)
01:54:58 <alise> cpressey: *Categories, I think
01:55:02 <alise> if google serves me right
01:55:16 <coppro> never heard of categories theory
01:55:22 <alise> Categories for the ...
01:55:36 <alise> category theory is cool, even if i will never understand it
01:56:12 <coppro> just go to grad school in pure math
01:56:34 <coppro> (in other news, <3 going to a real math school)
01:56:36 <alise> coppro: like, right now?
01:56:50 <alise> i'll be there in twelve hours.
01:57:01 <alise> coppro: your job is to secure my admission
01:57:16 <coppro> I demand a three-hour extension
01:57:30 <alise> coppro: granted. but you also have to give me money, too.
01:57:33 <pikhq> So. VirtualBox it is. *mutter*
01:57:48 <pikhq> Especially sucking.
01:58:25 <coppro> Interesting thing I learned last week: if k divides n, the kth Mersenne number divides the nth Mersenne number.
01:58:53 <alise> BUT WHAT IF K DOESN'T DIVIDE N, COPPRO?!?!?!?!
01:59:02 <alise> WHAT THE *FUCK* THEN?!!?!:@?!?!?!
01:59:07 <cpressey> somebody think of the children
01:59:09 <alise> WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH
01:59:20 <coppro> alise: It's okay, I haven't proven it yet
01:59:29 <alise> coppro: YOU DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT PEOPLE
01:59:39 <alise> ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS YOUR MATHEMATICS, PROVING THINGS AND RUINING PEOPLE'S LIVES!
01:59:46 <alise> WAKE UP, COPPRO! WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!
01:59:58 <Gregor> Mathematics and pooppyness.
02:00:16 <alise> Gregor: that's going to be the title of coppro's phd thesis
02:00:42 <alise> Mathematics and pooppyness: a method to remove undesired comments from a networked computer conversational system.
02:00:55 <alise> yes, his phd thesis is on /ignore
02:01:29 <alise> Google are testing self-driving cars on the actual road, without the driver actually driving.
02:01:31 <alise> How is that legal?
02:01:40 <pikhq> VirtualBox has the *concept* of copy-on-write images. It just doesn't let you create them outside of its retarded conception of "snapshots".
02:02:00 <alise> "With someone behind the wheel to take control if something goes awry and a technician in the passenger seat to monitor the navigation system"
02:02:15 <alise> coppro: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/science/10google.html
02:02:20 <alise> coppro: or was that the phd thesis thing
02:02:25 <alise> you were going ohgodihopenot to
02:02:43 <alise> anyway only in sil. val. and if you live there you deserve what you get
02:02:54 <alise> (how does one appreciate silicon(e) valley?)
02:02:59 <coppro> also, it would be really awesome if the police were to go and bust them for it
02:03:10 <alise> coppro: it's probably legal, if they're doing it
02:03:20 <alise> but imagine if it drove slightly over the speed limit due to a rounding error
02:03:24 <coppro> probably has to do with freedom of speech or something
02:03:24 <alise> and they got pulled over
02:03:29 <alise> driver with his hands down by his side
02:03:42 <alise> oh man, how great would it be if it pulled over automatically?
02:03:46 <alise> or -- even better --
02:03:51 <alise> ran away automatically
02:03:53 <alise> whenever it sensed police
02:04:10 <alise> automatic car chase up a mountain
02:04:12 <alise> with the driver asleep
02:04:59 <coppro> or, if it was driving off of google maps, did something dumb like crash into a closed road
02:08:19 <cpressey> < alise> coppro: it's probably legal, if they're doing it
02:08:32 <cpressey> corporation is doing x. therefore x is probably legal.
02:09:21 <alise> if the NYT knows about it.
02:09:25 <alise> google certainly aren't ultra-silent
02:09:35 <alise> otherwise they would have detailed their OMG INVESTIGATION
02:09:38 <alise> to find out who's behind it
02:10:50 <alise> "The car can be programmed for different driving personalities — from cautious, in which it is more likely to yield to another car, to aggressive, where it is more likely to go first."
02:11:00 <alise> Building a car-driving AI with an "aggressive" option: worst idea ever, or worst idea ever?
02:11:42 <Gregor> Then just deploy it in your favorite belligerent country.
02:11:44 <Gregor> Suddenly people are getting run down.
02:11:49 <Gregor> Nobody can identify who's running them down.
02:11:55 <Gregor> Kim Jong Il gets hit by a car ...
02:12:16 <cpressey> wait, this presupposes north korea has roads
02:12:31 <alise> the tour buses drive on them
02:12:36 <alise> or is that trains? no. bus.
02:13:03 <pikhq> cpressey: They have extremely overbuilt road infrastructure.
02:13:16 <pikhq> You see, being able to show off highways is a source of national pride.
02:13:36 <pikhq> Having enough cars to make your 8-lane highway necessary is un-Juche.
02:13:37 <cpressey> then, thanks to the google murder car, it shall be their undoing!
02:15:41 <cpressey> what's something large and obscure and complex that I can build from source
02:15:55 <alise> pikhq: 8-lane? srsly?
02:16:08 <pikhq> alise: Pyongyang only, but seriously.
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02:18:31 <pikhq> Well, because I'm actually using VirtualBox for this... Might as well see how well its 3D support works.
02:18:57 <pikhq> Gregor: It has fully-functional OpenGL support and experimental Direct3D support.
02:19:13 <alise> WineDirect3D, it's called
02:19:16 <alise> The name scares me greatly.
02:19:23 <pikhq> The Direct3D support, you need to go into safe mode to install.
02:19:36 <alise> [#4 SIZE:3,041.1MiB/3,396.4MiB(89%) CN:5 SPD:795.6KiBs ETA:07m37s]
02:19:39 <pikhq> It has to replace the d3d library.
02:19:40 <alise> this better be good
02:21:31 <pikhq> To be *perfectly* fair to all this, I'm going to try something I know actually works tolerably in WINE.
02:22:35 <alise> half-life 2 works tolerably in wine?
02:22:55 <pikhq> Steam is slower than hell, but yeah, it works just fine.
02:23:08 <pikhq> Half-Life 1 works 200% perfectly.
02:23:16 <pikhq> (that is to say, better than on Windows)
02:23:17 <alise> try as I might, I cannot think of anything stupider than steam
02:23:20 <alise> why does steam even exist
02:23:25 <alise> Gregor: to be fair, WINE sucks shit
02:23:35 <Gregor> alise: WINE is fucking incredible.
02:24:00 <alise> cpressey: dude, it's from the plan 9 guys
02:24:05 <alise> it even uses the plan 9 c compilers to compile it
02:24:09 <alise> and the same toolchain model
02:24:14 <alise> so yes, of course it freaking uses ed
02:24:20 <alise> Gregor: even Worms: Armageddon isn't a sure thing with wine
02:24:46 <alise> cpressey: is this Go the board game, some computer version
02:24:48 <alise> or Go the language
02:24:49 <Gregor> The fact that any given program may or may not work under WINE is not a statement against WINE, regardless of how simple or complicated that program is.
02:25:00 <alise> Gregor: Yes it is, since WINE aims for Windows compatibility.
02:25:12 <cpressey> alise: doesn't matter, i've given up already
02:25:20 <alise> cpressey: oh yeah, requiring ed
02:25:20 <Gregor> ANY GIVEN PROGRAM != lots and lots of programs.
02:25:22 <alise> that's so horrible
02:25:27 <alise> ed, the one thing guaranteed to be on any unix system
02:25:32 <alise> how could they possibly use it in their build system
02:25:39 <cpressey> alise: that's not ... look n/,
02:26:05 <alise> please correct your line
02:26:19 <cpressey> "Alise, that's not... look, never mind."
02:26:20 <Gregor> Well, that's not look n/.
02:28:20 <alise> HA! It actually just downloaded it from one source
02:28:30 <alise> so that's why it was a bit slow
02:29:39 <cpressey> alise: how, pray tell, shall i atone for my double ignorance that Go, the language, is from "the plan 9 guys" and that this means that "of course it freaking uses ed"?
02:30:11 <alise> cpressey: You know... of all the things I could say to annoy you, picking on one that I didn't even say angrily probably isn't the best start.
02:31:44 <cpressey> i guess i should just get used to it
02:33:27 <alise> cpressey: haha sweet, PACKET commands aren't working
02:33:31 <alise> when booting pc-bsd in a vm
02:33:34 <alise> DAMN YOU PACKET MODE
02:34:35 <alise> "BIOS drive A: is disk0
02:34:40 <alise> BIOS drive C: is disk1"
02:34:46 <alise> Does the BIOS have a concept of drive letters?
02:34:58 <pikhq> alise: I've found that games using OpenGL pretty much "just work".
02:35:30 <coppro> depending on your graphics card
02:35:32 <alise> pikhq: Worms: Armageddon is 2D, and the menu interface is done by drawing a Windows window with buttons and shit behind the rendered UI.
02:35:35 <alise> Oh, and text boxes.
02:35:45 <pikhq> alise: Hooray, crazy shit.
02:35:48 <alise> I know this because when it freezes you can see blank text boxes and buttons arranged in just the right shape.
02:36:00 <alise> pikhq: Surprisingly, for a game released in 1997, it is *still regularly updated*.
02:36:09 <alise> A proprietary game at that.
02:36:42 <alise> Why? Because some guy made this cheating software for it and everyone got angry, then he wrote another piece of software with the same name, that *disabled* the cheating software when playing over the 'net, and added some little useful features.
02:36:58 <alise> Then the company were like "ok you clearly know your shit, here, have a salary and the source code".
02:37:04 <alise> And... he's still at it, even after all these years.
02:37:05 <pikhq> That's totally awesome.
02:37:34 <alise> So you can play that game from 1997 at full widescreen resolution, and it's insanely polished. :)
02:37:54 <alise> A few sprites were even updated some years back just to look a little bit nicer while keeping in with the others.
02:38:34 <pikhq> '99, not '97. Still awesome.
02:38:52 <pikhq> '99 was the last "official" release, rather than "beta".
02:39:06 <zzo38> The BIOS does have drive numbers. The BIOS assumes there can be up to 128 floppy drives and up to 128 hard drives.
02:39:22 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, the game has been in "beta" ever since ... well, ever since years and years ago.
02:39:29 <alise> So in that community, "beta" means "updated".
02:39:39 <alise> This is because the patches were beta because they were experimental.
02:39:46 <alise> And then nobody bothered to make them not beta.
02:40:32 <alise> pikhq: BTW, it's a great game; highly recommended.
02:40:43 <alise> Turn-based artillery with, like, ten cupfuls of ridiculousness.
02:40:48 <pikhq> I've played Worms before. :)
02:40:57 <alise> pikhq: Ever played online? It's a whole new world.
02:41:04 <alise> In fact, "regular" games are rather rare there; people are awful creative.
02:41:17 <alise> For instance, one of the most common game is a shopper.
02:41:31 <alise> You have to get a crate -- they fall every turn -- before attacking. You have to drop the attack from a rope.
02:41:48 <alise> And you have to kill the leader (or the second if you're the leader). (Or all but the last player, as a variant.)
02:42:20 <alise> Then you get things like ropers, with a very limited set of weapons and the same rules as a shopper, but played on a two-island map and with just the right amount of water that you can knock someone in without drowning when you land. (Yeah, that's weird.)
02:42:24 <alise> Oh yeah, and the turn time is 15 seconds.
02:42:28 <alise> coppro: must have what?
02:42:40 <alise> Hmm, it actually doesn't have the colon. Whatever.
02:42:55 <alise> If you do mean WA, I'm rather surprised that you know of Team17 but don't own it.
02:43:23 <pikhq> Steam has stopped supporting Win2k.
02:43:37 <alise> Yes indeed, you suck Tobe.
02:44:23 <coppro> alise: I have never actually acquired a worms game, yet I have played them regularly at others' places
02:44:35 <coppro> mainly because I keep forgetting
02:44:46 <alise> coppro: You can only buy the Sold-Out version now I think.
02:44:52 <alise> And I don't really know if Team17 make more than a penny of that.
02:45:00 <alise> Piracy half-recommended.
02:45:28 <alise> I'm not sure *why* they pay Deadcode and I think CyberShadow now to maintain the game.
02:45:39 <alise> Maybe for fan goodwill. :)
02:46:42 <pikhq> Some corporations list goodwill as assets in their yearly reports for the stock exchange...
02:47:36 <coppro> alise: because they are friggin awesome
02:47:53 <alise> They are perhaps the coolest games company ever.
02:47:59 <alise> Except maybe Introversion.
02:48:11 <coppro> worms 3d isn't all that bad either
02:48:22 <pikhq> BTW, the last update came out 2 years ago...
02:48:42 <coppro> which is impressive, given that it's a 3d artillery game
02:49:01 <alise> pikhq: after iterating for that many years
02:49:02 <alise> what more can you do?
02:49:10 <alise> but -- as far as i am aware it is still being developed
02:49:10 <pikhq> alise: Okay, true.
02:49:15 <alise> coppro: worms 3d is pretty bad but not that bad
02:49:22 <alise> after worms 4 they decided "fuck this 3d bullshit"
02:49:26 <alise> and now they only do 2d
02:49:34 <alise> they released a new 2d worms game for pc but it doesn't look all that hot
02:49:53 <alise> [[In February 2004, a small group of fans launched a Team17 fansite called Dream17. The company gave Dream17 permission to make their entire Amiga back-catalog of games available as free downloads in both ADF and IPF disk image formats.]]
02:49:58 <alise> WHO IS THAT AWESOME?
02:50:13 <alise> "Our old Amiga games? Sure, you can post all of those. For free."
02:50:30 <pikhq> alise: That's pretty dang awesome.
02:51:15 <coppro> I lol at how EA handled the old C&C games
02:51:15 <pikhq> alise: Oh, I found CyberShadow's Worms blog.
02:51:41 <pikhq> http://blog.worms2d.info/
02:51:48 <alise> he's actually on my msn list... although i forget why
02:51:49 <coppro> "Here, have it free. You can download a patch at [dead third-party link]"
02:51:51 <pikhq> Seems that WINE works if you just use a different DirectDraw DLL.
02:52:01 <pikhq> And the next patch will have it work out-of-the-box.
02:52:24 <alise> the people online can be a bit lame
02:52:30 <alise> they're v. noob intolerant at least when i played
02:52:45 <pikhq> Yes, they're working on WINE support.
02:52:53 <alise> recite the rules to the game (e.g. "afr cba abl" for a shopper (attack from rope, crate before attack and all but last)) or get kicked instantly
02:52:54 <pikhq> If only everyone could be so awesome.
02:53:02 <alise> "In other news, our Wine users may be delighted to know that starting with the next Worms Armageddon update, they will no longer need a patched DirectDraw DLL. W:A will run out of the box!"
02:53:14 <pikhq> If only everyone could be so awesome.
02:53:16 <alise> http://dump.thecybershadow.net/408ac203082e5044bded2e7bdacd84e0/screen0557.png
02:53:20 <alise> OMG THINGS TO TWEAK
02:53:41 <alise> "Force Wine virtual desktop".
02:53:46 <alise> ...why can't everyone have Wine-specific options? :P
02:53:56 <alise> pikhq: HAHA: http://dump.thecybershadow.net/a9c47ea3f6ef7937363241e912825274/screenshot.png
02:54:07 <alise> Worms World Party is the same as Worms Armageddon except it never got updated and the graphics were cutesy and shit.
02:54:19 <alise> So that, right there, is an outright admission that Worms World Party is the shitty version of W:A.
02:56:00 <alise> http://blog.worms2d.info/mountain-sheep ;; wat
02:56:05 <alise> In which a sheep is magical.
02:56:46 <alise> hey they finally added clickable links
02:57:03 <alise> pikhq: Fun fact: The online WA system is based on *IRC*.
02:57:16 <alise> pikhq: That's why it's #AnythingGoes, etc. They're IRC channels. That's how the chat works. There's even a help bot.
02:57:20 <alise> Don't get too excited.
02:57:25 <alise> They really hate it when you connect with an IRC client.
02:57:32 <alise> I think they probably care less nowadays.
02:57:37 <alise> You gotta admire that decision.
02:57:46 <alise> "So, we have rooms that people can chat in... okay, let's just use IRC."
02:57:55 <coppro> yeah, IRC is a significantly saner choice
02:58:00 <coppro> don't reinvent the wheel
02:58:17 <alise> It even has an MOTD :)
02:58:31 <alise> Oh, and there has been a few third-party servers released over the years, I dunno if any ones are public/current.
02:58:42 <alise> coppro: The login-system -- which no longer requires a password unlike the old days -- is inexplicably based on HTML.
02:58:55 <alise> You have a list of Wormnet servers in your game installation as an HTML file, which the game displays customly.
02:59:03 <alise> You click them, and it goes to an HTML login page on the server, which is custom-processed somehow.
02:59:17 <alise> So you can actually edit the server list -- but getting it to actually connect to something else is a chore.
02:59:22 <alise> I think I got some server software working once.
02:59:32 <alise> But still, that's a dual IRC/HTTP/WormNet server you have to have there.
03:00:03 <coppro> in all honesty, I'd probably just implement most of the client protocol over DCC for something like Worms
03:00:06 <alise> http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5736 tool-assisted speedrun of a rope race level
03:00:13 <alise> coppro: err, latency is a real problem
03:00:18 <alise> the actual game has to be super-optimised
03:00:24 <alise> because a lot of people with suboptimal net connections play it
03:00:28 <alise> even one or two dialuppers
03:00:33 <alise> coppro: you see them moving while their turn is giong
03:00:37 <alise> and have chat at the same time
03:00:47 <alise> it's not like it just shows you what they do after the fact
03:00:50 <alise> you see what they see
03:01:30 * alise watches http://lex.clansfx.co.uk/worms/movies/Lex%20-%20TAS%20of%20Pi%27s%20Mission%20Impossible%202%20rope%20race%20-%2021.86%20sec%20-%20no-death%20ending.x264.avi
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03:02:26 <alise> watch that video now
03:03:18 <alise> coppro: hey, Lex is in Waterloo too!
03:03:22 <alise> at least as of 2007-07
03:03:29 <alise> maybe he goes to your uni :)
03:05:30 <Rugxulo> <alise> entrant in my Most Xenophobic Comment of the Year award
03:06:50 <Rugxulo> no, I just think Unicode is a bit overrated, that's all
03:07:00 <alise> you think everything invented post-1990 is overrated
03:07:36 <Rugxulo> well, make that 1993 and you're correct ;-)
03:08:00 <coppro> alise: unlikely but possible?
03:08:17 <coppro> alise: can you get a full name?
03:08:25 <alise> coppro: "Lex, the worms guy"
03:08:32 <alise> i uh, i did talk to him at one point
03:08:37 <alise> not sure about full name though :D
03:08:47 <pikhq> Rugxulo: How's Unicode overrated?
03:09:07 <coppro> alise: I could check if he's (or if someone of the same name is, anyway) at the uni with a full name
03:09:08 <Rugxulo> make that Unicode support is overrated
03:09:25 <Rugxulo> for questionable benefit (in some situations)
03:09:41 <pikhq> How's Unicode support overrated?
03:09:55 <alise> pikhq: because we're AMERICAN!
03:10:01 <alise> and we don't need any other languages!
03:10:07 <Rugxulo> my philosophy is more minimalist than "add everything and the kitchen sink and deprecate everything every 2 years"
03:10:11 <alise> coppro: can't you just search for everyone named Lex/Alex :D
03:10:19 <coppro> alise: I suppose I could try
03:10:34 <alise> Rugxulo: yes, because everyone who speaks a non-English language should be ignored for your silly philosophy designed solely so that you can claim everything modern is bloated
03:11:03 <Rugxulo> I just don't like modern OSes and all their crap
03:11:32 <alise> coppro: never mind.
03:11:39 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Are you aware what the alternative to Unicode (or something similar) is?
03:11:43 <alise> coppro: he may have graduated.
03:11:56 <alise> October 26, 1987 (22)
03:12:16 <Rugxulo> I didn't say NLS / i18n / etc. is bad, just sometimes overkill and bloated and hard to implement and ....
03:12:26 <pikhq> I'll tell you. It's hundreds of entirely different and inherently incompatible character encodings.
03:13:00 <coppro> Unicode is the best thing to happen to character encodings since the invention of the letter
03:13:34 <Rugxulo> BTW, wasn't Unicode invented in like 1993? (so maybe it's not so bad after all, heh)
03:13:44 <pikhq> And the bloat (yes, *bloat*) necessary to be able to parse *each and every one of them* everywhere that more than one encoding is needed.
03:14:06 <pikhq> (and keep in mind that there's generally more than one encoding per language!)
03:14:19 <Rugxulo> pikhq, I'm not quite the rube you think I am (though close enough!)
03:14:36 <Rugxulo> I'm just saying, some things don't need to be internationalized
03:14:43 <zzo38> I have some problems with Unicode also, but I can think of a different way to make the code supporting all language and other things, too. One thing is to make a code point number encode all properties necessary to typeset/parse a character
03:15:22 <Rugxulo> besides, most programs still don't have NLS text for their interfaces (e.g. GNU Emacs)
03:15:24 <zzo38> Another way is that it includes variation mode and various other modes, too.
03:15:52 <Rugxulo> standards are good ... to a point, but sometimes they are overkill or badly designed or heavily ignored or whatever
03:16:10 <zzo38> Rugxulo: Yes I think in many cases that is
03:16:38 <pikhq> For English, there's ASCII, ISO 8859-1, Windows-1252, EBCDIC, Mac OS Roman, ANSEL.
03:16:59 <pikhq> Oh, and code page 437.
03:17:17 <Rugxulo> pikhq, some people never supported all the 8859-x ones at all, only Latin-1 (at best) despite them being designed at the same time (at least the first four)
03:17:37 <Rugxulo> so that's just lame, so much for standards ... the fact is nobody cares :-(
03:17:46 <pikhq> Yes, you'd need to handle 7 different character encodings *just to handle arbitrary English text*.
03:18:13 <Rugxulo> but I admit there's quite a lot of incompatible data out there
03:18:33 <pikhq> And this is for a relatively simple set of glyphs.
03:18:55 <pikhq> It gets even more horrifying if you look into CJK.
03:19:44 <Rugxulo> it may sound good to support every language under the sun, but that gets tedious (and expensive)
03:20:43 <Rugxulo> face it, some languages are more equal than others :-(
03:21:14 <pikhq> It's trivial to make it possible to *deal with text* in every language under the sun.
03:21:22 <pikhq> Just implement Unicode.
03:21:40 <Rugxulo> and how many glyphs, ten thousand??
03:22:23 <zzo38> UTF-8 is one way of encoding Unicode characters
03:22:30 <zzo38> The other way is UTF-16
03:23:59 <Rugxulo> I just hate modern computers, they're so horribly inefficient
03:24:19 <Rugxulo> I shouldn't blame Unicode for that, but it hasn't helped!
03:24:20 <Gregor> There are plenty of ways.
03:24:22 <pikhq> JIS X 0201, JIS X 0208, JIS X 0212, JIS X 0213, Shift-JIS, code page 932, ISO-2022-JP, EUC-JP.
03:24:32 <Gregor> UTF-8, UCS-1, UTF-16, UCS-2, UTF-32 and UCS-4 are some of them.
03:24:33 <pikhq> All this *just for Japanese text*.
03:24:37 <Gregor> Some of those may be equivalent :P
03:24:44 <Gregor> Also, UTF-16-LE is different from UTF-16-BE.
03:24:52 <pikhq> And here's the thing. You need to implement *all of them* for a Japanese localisation.
03:25:02 <cpressey> Also, UTF-99, which I just made up.
03:25:25 <pikhq> Also, UTF-9 and UTF-18, which are real things.
03:25:32 <Gregor> pikhq: Yes yes. Japanese sucks. And everybody who speaks it (through tar-filled lungs) is terrible. WE KNOW!
03:25:50 <pikhq> Gregor: Written Chinese is worse.
03:26:15 <cpressey> "through tar-filled lungs"? I suddenly suspect there are whole layers of meaning here that I'm not catching
03:26:31 <Gregor> cpressey: All Japanese men smoke. ALL OF THEM.
03:26:34 <pikhq> Hong Kong, Taiwan, and PRC all defined their own completely different standards, you see.
03:26:37 <pikhq> cpressey: He's right.
03:26:44 <Rugxulo> I'm in favor of whatever works, just some things work so badly / slowly / or not at all !!!!
03:27:05 <cpressey> That's interesting. It never occurred to me before. But it's probably true.
03:27:08 <Rugxulo> Hong Kong is part of PRC now (but I digress...)
03:27:17 <pikhq> Rugxulo: They still do their own standards.
03:27:28 <Gregor> It's owned by the PRC, but it's politically mostly-distinct for the time being.
03:27:34 <Rugxulo> Taiwan is too (according to PRC) but they disagree
03:27:43 <alise> taiwan is not owned by the prc
03:27:50 <alise> in any sense but according to the prc's fantasy world
03:27:58 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Unicode is the *only thing* that works for handling international text, and just about the only thing that works for single-language text.
03:28:15 <Rugxulo> single-language? uh ... heh
03:28:28 <pikhq> (English could get away without it if we could *just agree on ASCII*. But no, have to expand the higher 7 bits)
03:28:28 <Gregor> alise: And yet, it is the official policy of any country wanting to do trade with China (e.g. us) that Taiwan IS owned by the PRC.
03:28:52 <pikhq> Gregor: The official policy of the US is that Taiwan both IS and ISNT owned by the PRC.
03:29:21 <pikhq> Gregor: We both don't recognise Taiwan as a seperate country and legally mandate that they are a seperate country.
03:29:58 <pikhq> Oh, and we are legally obligated to supply them with as many arms as they request.
03:30:53 <cpressey> quantum mechanics meets foreign policy
03:30:57 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Are you familiar with mojibake (文字化け)?
03:31:02 <Gregor> Well, if Taiwan actually went to war with China, there is no question that we would take Taiwan's side.
03:31:42 <pikhq> It's what happens when text in one character encoding gets interpreted as a different encoding.
03:32:18 <Gregor> pikhq: PLEASE tell me the name comes from something simple interpreted in the wrong encoding?
03:32:43 <Rugxulo> pikhq, Esperanto? (yeah, I knew you'd hate that) ... just saying, Unicode is fine in moderately reasonable doses ;-)
03:32:43 <pikhq> The *only* languages that has this end up in even slightly readable text are the ones using the Roman alphabet, because most encodings are a superset of ASCII.
03:33:10 <pikhq> Gregor: We are legally obligated to take Taiwan's side.
03:33:23 <pikhq> Gregor: "Changed characters", BTW.
03:33:33 <Gregor> pikhq: We're legally obligated to respect the land claims of Native Americans.
03:33:36 <Rugxulo> we still have troops in dang Korea, for freak's sake!!! it's been 60 years!!!
03:33:56 <Rugxulo> heh, those krazy korean gov'ts
03:34:12 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Yeah, we are still at war with North Korea. So... Yeah.
03:34:26 <alise> pikhq: wasn't it ended recently
03:34:49 <Gregor> America was never officially at war with N. Korea was it? It was a UN police action, so there was no formal declaration of war from us? Or is that a total lie?
03:35:16 <Rugxulo> 1950-3 was the Korean War, very bloody, U.S. vs. Chinese???
03:35:47 <pikhq> Rugxulo: In 1953, the *cease fire* was signed.
03:36:38 <pikhq> Rugxulo: "We" being the United Nations.
03:37:17 <pikhq> Under the command of the USA.
03:38:30 <pikhq> Ah, apparently the war is de jure between the South and the North, with the US in command of the South.
03:49:06 <cpressey> i don't know any programming languages from south korea.
03:49:47 <cpressey> the only programming language from south korea i know of, is an esolang.
03:55:09 <Rugxulo> there was a guy who made a Han-capable Forth
03:55:26 <Rugxulo> and yes, I've heard of that Korean esolang, barely
03:55:49 <Rugxulo> hForth ran in DOS, no less ;-)
03:56:26 <Rugxulo> yeah, I dunno, computers got too complicated somewhere along the way, now nobody can barely use them they're so confusing and inefficient
03:56:58 <Rugxulo> all because pikhq had to have his silly Unicode ;-) j/k
03:58:47 <pikhq> Hey, just because I demand Unicode doesn't mean I want complexity.
03:59:10 <Rugxulo> I don't hate Unicode, really, and I'm no xenophobe :-P
03:59:17 <pikhq> I still think DOS was a decent OS, for instance. :P
03:59:40 <pikhq> Limited, to be sure, but there's a certain charm to it as well.
03:59:52 <Rugxulo> extremely minimal, upgraded in very small pieces, modular (though not really portable)
04:00:12 <Rugxulo> I mean, when the IBM PC 5150 only came with 16 kb of RAM (!), what else could you run???
04:00:34 <Rugxulo> and was way more expensive
04:01:46 <Rugxulo> nowadays you need at least 200 kb free just to run DOS (bloat!!!) ;-))
04:03:24 <Rugxulo> it just bugs me when people act like you can't even edit a text file without 600 MB of RAM
04:03:42 <Rugxulo> and yes, there are a few different Unicode editors for DOS (of varying abilities)
04:09:31 <alise> bnobody acts like that
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04:26:47 <cpressey> i want to see more languages like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgoPl35n_AY
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04:39:39 <oerjan> <alise> (what is it about BSDs that attracts drama, btw?) <-- it's right there in the name. bondage, sadomasochism and drama.
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04:51:48 <cpressey> oerjan: you keep some unusual hours
05:14:06 <oerjan> <cpressey> the only programming language from south korea i know of, is an esolang.
05:14:19 <oerjan> we _do_ have a regular from there, you know
05:14:30 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Tokigun
05:15:18 <pikhq> WHY THATS CLEARLY NOT SOUTH KOREAN. ONLY AMERICA HAS INTERNET
05:15:43 <pikhq> Hrm. Wait. lifthrasiir is from South Korea?
05:16:04 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Never realised.
05:16:28 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Incidentally, what's the etymology of lifthrasiir and/or tokigun?
05:16:52 <oerjan> pikhq: he's been idle for 11 days so don't expect _too_ quick an answer
05:17:27 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, well, I'm patient.
05:19:57 <coppro> TASes are so ridiculous
05:21:23 <pikhq> Google has a fleet of robot cars.
05:21:39 <coppro> we discuessed this already
05:22:01 * oerjan finds User:Puzzlet Chung, User:SteloKim, User:Tokigun and User:Gs30ng
05:24:00 <oerjan> And the languages Aheui, Udage and Versert.
05:28:20 <cpressey> The Versert link was broken for me though :(
05:31:08 <oerjan> http://mearie.org/projects/versert/ works
05:35:51 <oerjan> i presume that might end up in korean for some people
05:35:59 <oerjan> they probably won't complain :D
05:36:02 <coppro> it's unclear if the registers have unbounded space or not
05:36:25 <oerjan> (it complained to me about not having a norwegian version)
05:36:50 <pikhq> Is it *actually doing language negotiation*?
05:37:41 <pikhq> Though, the English sucks.
05:38:21 <pikhq> It's obviously human-written English, though. Which helps a lot.
05:38:40 <pikhq> Hell of a lot easier to read through grammar mistakes than through the sheer randomness that is machine translation.
05:41:04 <cpressey> oerjan: no norweigian for YOU, oerjan!
05:41:23 <pikhq> Only Swedish Chef!
05:41:30 <oerjan> Faens utlendinger som ikke kan snakke ordentlig!
05:42:09 <pikhq> Something about utlanning?
05:42:11 <cpressey> actually i liked the vlaah-python page, only available in Hangul. Of course, the Python example code is englishish. So you can try to figure out what the package provides, sort of!
05:42:26 <oerjan> pikhq: utlanning isn't a word
05:42:46 <pikhq> oerjan: Is in English.
05:43:13 <pikhq> ... Granted, mostly in the context of the Ender's Game series, by Orson Scott Card, but still.
05:43:48 <pikhq> oerjan: Strangers of one's own species & culture.
05:43:55 <oerjan> ah. it's obviously from swedish utlänning.
05:44:57 <oerjan> in which case yeah, that's a cognate to what i wrote.
05:45:07 <pikhq> Likewise with framling, varelse, and djur.
05:45:49 <oerjan> norwegian would be fremmed, vesen, and dyr.
05:46:43 <pikhq> Literally, "stranger", "being", and "animal".
05:47:55 <pikhq> Referring to a stranger of one's own species but different culture, an intelligent species with which communication is impossible, and monsters, respectively.
05:48:32 <pikhq> (ramen, coming from who-knows-where, refers to another intelligence species with which communication & peaceful coexistence is possible.)
05:49:41 <oerjan> not raman? that's what showed up in the google hits for utlanning
05:50:02 <pikhq> Raman might be singular, hell if I know.
05:50:31 <pikhq> English is such a whore when it comes to vocabulary.
05:56:16 <coppro> trebly so for made-up vocabulary
05:56:38 <coppro> (and yes, I did just say that so I could use 'trebly' in a sentence)
05:57:35 <oerjan> hm there is an adjective "rå", meaning raw. maybe it's a composition...
05:57:44 <coppro> pikhq: means nothing to me
05:58:15 <oerjan> given that the last part is pluralized like man/men
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06:14:16 <pikhq> The BBC has estabilished a new guideline for science reporting.
06:14:34 <pikhq> All science news stories must now link to the paper in question.
06:20:08 <Slereah> Is it because of that satyrical article
06:31:41 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: lifthrasiir comes from Lífþrasir; tokigun roughly translates to Mr. Rabbit ("Toki" + "-gun"). I have chosen them to simply avoid duplicates.
06:33:47 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Meaning of Lífþrasir?
06:33:52 <Ilari> Unfortunately, they still can report total garbage papers that shouldn't have been published (due to severe shortcomings) as gospel...
06:34:03 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%ADf_and_L%C3%ADf%C3%BErasir
06:34:14 <coppro> More unfortunately, what if they can't link the journal because it isn't available online?
06:34:44 <oerjan> clearly he's aiming to be the one to survive 2012, here
06:35:12 * pikhq finds it somewhat curious that Korean also has honorific suffixes...
06:35:29 <lifthrasiir> Digital object identifier. Mainly used for unique identification of documents, like papers.
06:35:50 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: That IS headache even for native speakers.
06:35:58 <Ilari> Like papers that mix up animal fats and techno fats... All the relevant scientists should know better not to do that kind of "research".
06:36:04 <oerjan> pikhq: i've read that korean grammar parallels japanese in many ways
06:36:21 <pikhq> oerjan: From what I've seen of Korean grammar, it's fucking uncanny.
06:36:21 <lifthrasiir> coppro: That's shame, but that would be the best approximation to links...
06:36:56 <pikhq> Which *suggests* to me that Korean & Japonic are actually related languages.
06:37:04 <pikhq> Well Language families.
06:37:13 <oerjan> pikhq: or they might have had a strong sprachbund
06:37:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Damned strong sprachbund.
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06:38:08 <pikhq> ... And would have to have been rather long ago...
06:38:23 <pikhq> The apparently-cognate grammar features have been in both languages at least as long as they've been written.
06:38:54 <oerjan> pikhq: i read at one time that there are two languages in india in neigboring village or so that have exactly parallel grammars, but one is dravidian and the other indo-aryan
06:39:37 <oerjan> (well that last part should also be considered vague)
06:39:56 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: I can imagine the honorifics are a headache. Sure are in Japanese.
06:40:05 <oerjan> pikhq: but are the endings _phonetically_ similar?
06:40:45 * oerjan didn't have that impression, although he hasn't actually _seen_ examples
06:45:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Well, there are a number of proposed cognates...
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06:48:53 <pikhq> Still, hard to demonstrate without a time machine.
06:49:36 <pikhq> (the proposed Altaic cognates are merely *plausible*...)
06:51:44 <pikhq> Oh, and it's hard to just go out and point out random cognates in the two languages *now* because there's so much borrowing from Chinese that fully half of the vocabulary is cognate now.
06:52:33 <oerjan> sf idea: a korean/japanese researcher far in the future takes a time machine back to japan/korea to settle the matter. naturally he ends up founding the language he goes to investigate - a thousands of years descendant of the other
06:52:53 <pikhq> That would be pretty great.
06:54:17 <oerjan> actually all the chinese loans might mess up that theory a bit...
06:55:10 <oerjan> maybe have a competing researcher from the other country for nice time-loop ness
07:03:10 <pikhq> Well, except the Chinese loans are one of the best documented things in linguistics.
07:04:15 <pikhq> The words composed from originally-Chinese morphemes are freaking called 漢語 [kango] (Chinese words) in Japanese.
07:07:31 <oerjan> i mean they would mess up the time travel theory :D
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08:08:42 <cheater00> pikhq: i have this theory that japanese comes from the mongolian empire somehow
08:09:48 <cheater00> japanese is syntactically very similar to hungarian and finnish
08:10:16 <cheater00> if you think about the expansion of the mongolian empire, that's where the troops have or would have stopped if they started in mongolia
08:11:22 <cheater00> that went on for many years, certainly long enough to teach the locals how to write and to start talking with them (mongolians were not xenophobic, they cooperated with the skilled workers of the nations they were trying to conquer in fact)
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08:36:48 <Gregor> VSTi's are better than SoundFonts.
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08:44:49 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-vst-2010-10-10.ogg Observe how my op. 11 string quartet becomes almost tolerable when played through a (free!) VSTi!
08:45:13 <Gregor> Not as good as it would be on real instruments, but an enormous improvement from anything else I've been able to do thusfar!
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10:01:39 <cheater99> then it'll be 10/10/10 10:10:10 !!!
10:02:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:03:20 -!- augur has joined.
10:04:19 <oklopol> so in fact i had an alarm clock beep me up at the most important second of my life
10:04:29 <oklopol> well i was up already but anyway
10:05:02 * augur eats oklopol's kebab
10:05:14 <oklopol> well aren't you being mean
10:05:37 <augur> the one made of lamb meat and yogurt sauce and pita!
10:05:50 <oklopol> well that's okay i can just buy two
10:07:19 <oklopol> good morning, sleep warning.
10:12:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
10:22:42 <cheater99> Ubuntu 10.10 Maverick Meerkat is released today (10/10/10) to get "the perfect 10"
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11:04:12 <cheater99> ais523: happy 10/10/10 10:10:10.10101010101010101010..
11:04:43 <ais523> I was aware that time was coming up
11:19:36 <ais523> hmm, North Korea just got its own TLD
11:19:47 <ais523> that they actually run themselves, rather than delegating to the Chinese
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11:38:23 <cheater99> cool, i have never noticed that ubuntu has someplan9 packages
11:38:44 <cheater99> 9wm is an X window manager which attempts to emulate the Plan 9 window
11:38:44 <cheater99> manager 8-1/2 as far as possible within the constraints imposed by X.
11:38:53 <cheater99> 9base is a port of following original Plan 9 userland tools to Unix:
11:38:53 <cheater99> awk, basename, bc, cat, cleanname, date, dc, echo, grep, mk, rc, sed, seq,
11:38:53 <cheater99> sleep, sort, tee, test, touch, tr, uniq, and yacc.
11:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look. The Software Centre has started offering software to buy.
12:08:35 <fizzie> I'm not sure it counts, since they said they're going to when they introduced the Software Centre.
12:12:03 <Phantom_Hoover> After all, they make all kinds of rhetoric about freedom.
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12:18:41 <fizzie> Yes, you see, you are free to not buy stuff. (They'll be introducing a limit of minimum monthly purchases in 2012; if you buy less than that, it'll start to disable features like 3D acceleration one by one.)
12:18:45 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: not true.)
12:28:03 <ais523> fizzie: if they did do that, someone would just patch it out
12:28:14 <ais523> so they probably wouldn't try, so as to not spoil their reputation
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12:48:07 <ais523> // In C there is no boolean type; a condition is true if
12:48:13 <ais523> // it equals 1 and is false otherwise.
12:48:22 <ais523> // For clarity, we can define some preprocessor aliases.
12:48:51 <ais523> (I'm teaching a bit of C as well as Java, now; if this is what I have to work from, it could be "interesting"...)
12:52:40 <oklopol> so apparently all discrete math is done in CS in most unis, so people who do research on the topological aspects of cellular automata will get to teach a bit of java as well
12:53:09 <oklopol> i'm certainly lucky to live in this particular university
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12:53:49 <fizzie> ais523: That sort of thing is just asking for someone to fail all "if (isalpha(c) == TRUE)"-like.
12:54:05 <ais523> and will berate the lecturer at the next chance I get
12:54:32 <ais523> (are the ctype.h functions the only standard library ones that can return booleans that aren't 0/1?)
12:56:51 <fizzie> ais523: isfinite() and isinf() are defined to return "a nonzero value".
12:57:03 <fizzie> And isnan/isnormal/signbit too.
12:57:23 <ais523> presumably, that's in case they're implemented with bit-twiddling on the float value interpreted as an int
12:57:27 <ais523> which is a plausible way to do it on some platforms
12:58:12 <fizzie> Also: "The raise function returns zero if successful, nonzero if unsuccessful."
12:58:32 <fizzie> But that's not very "boolean" anyway.
12:58:42 <fizzie> The thing that sends a signal.
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13:03:38 <oklopol> i would if someone bought them
13:03:57 <cheater99> i have found the ultimate muesli fruit
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13:05:08 <cheater99> i guess that's not that interesting though
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13:53:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there some deep and meaningful connection between the harmonic numbers and ln?
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14:04:41 <cheater99> In the limit of n\rightarrow \infty, the generalized harmonic number converges to the Riemann zeta function
14:04:41 <cheater99> \lim_{n\rightarrow \infty} H_{n,m} = \zeta(m).
14:14:01 <cheater99> \Zeta' (0, 1+a) = \Zeta' (0, a) + ln a
14:19:03 <cheater99> i think i have finally found a media player which is cooler than deadbeef
14:26:07 <cheater99> when a WPA2 PSK authentication happens, one side sents out the salted hash of the key, and the other side computes their own version, and checks the hashes for equality, yes?
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14:35:51 <fizzie> I assumed the PSK mode doesn't really do any authentication exchanges, it just derives the main CCMP encryption key from the passphrase. There's a MAC in the packet anyway, so wrong-key packets get discarded. But that was completely a guess, I've never looked into how it works.
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14:44:34 <oerjan> 00:09:48 <cheater00> japanese is syntactically very similar to hungarian and finnish
14:44:38 <oerjan> 00:10:16 <cheater00> if you think about the expansion of the mongolian empire, that's where the troops have or would have stopped if they started in mongolia
14:44:58 <oerjan> unfortunately the timing is _severely_ off for that theory.
14:46:09 <oerjan> as in, any relation between hungarian/finnish (uralic languages) and japanese predates the mongol empire (1200's) by thousands of years.
14:47:25 <oerjan> btw the uralic languages are one of the _best_ attested language families, iirc it was the first to be discovered.
14:49:50 <oerjan> also both finnish and hungarian have been seriously europeanized. in fact just today i saw hungarian listed as the one non-indoeuropean language in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European
14:51:04 <oerjan> (finnish isn't quite as affected - it has no articles for one thing, although neither does some other eastern european languages such as russian and polish.)
14:52:01 <oerjan> however one europeanization i recall that finnish has but not hungarian is adjective/noun agreement
14:52:48 <oerjan> (there might be others i just don't know about)
14:54:44 <oerjan> cheater: oh and one even more damning fact: japan was never conquered by the mongol empire :D
14:55:24 <oerjan> (actually i don't think the finns were either, not sure about the hungarians)
14:55:48 <oerjan> (the finns were already busy being conquered by the swedes)
14:56:02 <oklopol> what's adjective/noun agreement?
14:56:24 <oerjan> oklopol: case and number, iirc in finnish
14:56:57 <oerjan> of course other languages have gender as well / instead, and norwegian and swedish have definiteness
14:57:35 <oerjan> while in hungarian adjectives are not inflected for case or number unless they're used alone
14:58:01 <oerjan> in fact even _nouns_ aren't inflected for number if there is an actual number word before them
14:58:12 <oerjan> i don't know about estonian
14:58:34 <oerjan> it's pretty close to finnish but i don
14:59:10 <oklopol> heheheheh you accidentally
14:59:11 <oerjan> 't know if it has agreement, given that that was borrowed afaiu from other european languages
15:00:41 <oklopol> "<oerjan> novay" oh because it sounds a bit like nivat
15:01:05 <oerjan> (as for verb/noun agreement, hungarian has _more_ of that than either finnish or the others ... but basque has even more i've read)
15:01:52 <oerjan> (in hungarian in addition to person/number agreement with the subject there is also definiteness agreement with the _object_)
15:02:05 <oerjan> oklopol: took you long enough ;D
15:03:49 <oklopol> "<oklopol> you've hallucinated?" "<oklopol> are you still in that institution thing" <<< my train of thought may be embarrassingly obvious :D
15:03:58 <oklopol> "oh so maybe he really was crazy!"
15:04:11 <oklopol> (disclaimer: i don't remember what my train of thought was)
15:04:31 <oerjan> it probably ran off the tracks, crashed and exploded
15:06:46 <oklopol> oerjan: did you play piano as a kid
15:07:31 <oerjan> i recall there were two attempts to teach it to me
15:08:01 <oklopol> but did your parents send you to take piano lessons
15:08:03 <oerjan> however, the complete lack of a piano in our home probably did not help
15:08:15 <oklopol> or like your cousin tried to teach you something
15:08:58 <oerjan> well it was lessons, somewhat
15:09:30 <oerjan> i think i got started on either Madeleine of Für Elise, not quite sure which is which
15:09:30 <oklopol> well i didn't expect any kind of dedication, although maybe more than 2 lessons
15:09:41 <oerjan> maybe it was one each time
15:10:32 <oklopol> that's chromatic scale, e eb e eb e h d c a on the retarded scale
15:10:38 <oerjan> one of the teachers was the neighboring kid. he went on to a career as a musician, as did his brother
15:11:38 <oklopol> so you lived in a small neighborhood
15:12:02 <oklopol> i guess that makes sense, have you lived in trondheim all your life
15:12:30 <oerjan> i come from a small town by the name of Sandnessjøen
15:13:09 <oklopol> did you move to trondheim with your parents or later on by yourself
15:13:15 <oklopol> what color underwear do you prefer
15:13:23 <oerjan> i moved to trondheim to start university
15:13:39 <oerjan> my parents never moved
15:14:11 <oerjan> well apart from my dad moving house within the town
15:15:23 <oklopol> so... are your parents divorced?
15:15:33 <oklopol> that's not very that was ally
15:15:57 <oerjan> oh it was probably adeline not madeleine
15:15:58 <oklopol> guess i'm not completely sopr yet huh?!?
15:16:24 <oerjan> hey you were ordered to stop pretending!
15:16:30 <oerjan> divorced when i was 10
15:18:02 * oerjan didn't know adeline was that new, thought it was something classic
15:18:36 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uk2q1dP_t8 ?
15:19:22 <oklopol> here? i have something to say to you. ou realy wanna make feels people, the begenning it have to be slow and feel what are you playing. i know that it beautiful how you played but you need feelings.
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15:20:21 <oklopol> nooga: do you wanna make feels people?
15:20:31 <oerjan> ...i'm starting to think you really _are_ drunk
15:22:00 <oklopol> i've had this tiny hangoverlet all day, but the only thing i was gonna do today was referee this paper and that tiny bit of not being at my 100%est makes that impossible
15:22:04 <oklopol> so i've just been staring at this computer
15:22:27 <oklopol> my point being: i referee papers now, isn't that just so cool
15:22:39 <oerjan> i didn't know hangoverlets gave you atrocious spelling
15:23:04 <oklopol> where did i fail at spelling?
15:23:18 <oklopol> that was a youtube comment, actually
15:23:29 <oerjan> ok that makes more sense then :D
15:23:42 <oklopol> i would have to be pretty drunk to tell someone they play well but lack FEELING
15:24:01 <oklopol> if you bash the right keys at the right time, you're playing perfectly
15:24:37 <oerjan> ...i think there is more to it than just timing
15:25:01 <oklopol> well, all notes must be bashed at the same force
15:26:00 <oerjan> nooga: it's a perfectly cromulent word
15:26:27 <oklopol> -let is an all-purpose diminutive suffix
15:26:41 * oerjan wonders if nooga is failing at memes there
15:26:47 <olsner> ... and cromulent itself is probably *the* most cromulent word there is
15:27:06 <oerjan> olsner: especially in this situation
15:27:34 <nooga> i didn't know that
15:28:05 <oerjan> well now you've been embiggened
15:28:06 <oklopol> what i've always wanted to know is whether memes have always existed
15:28:36 * oerjan hasn't even seen that episode
15:29:08 <oerjan> but absorbing memes from the internet, yessir
15:29:29 <oklopol> <- bad case of the whooshs
15:29:56 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_the_Iconoclast
15:31:10 <oklopol> oh that's from simpsons :D
15:32:21 <oklopol> "<oerjan> but absorbing memes from the internet, yessir" <<< you think even internet memes have always existed?
15:34:21 <oklopol> oh you were referring to oh okaty
15:34:38 <oklopol> i knew i misunderstood, but didn't feel like thinking so i asked
15:34:53 <oerjan> yeah thinking is _so_ last millennium
15:35:31 <oklopol> yeah it's so last interval between two non-primitive words
15:36:15 <oklopol> hard to explain, surely you see what i mean
15:36:52 <oklopol> (hint: what's special about today)
15:37:13 <oerjan> as for whether memes have always existed, i recall someone pointing out how much of shakespeare's work consists of long forgotten inside jokes
15:37:37 <oerjan> or forgotten by everyone not a shakespeare scholar, anyway
15:38:10 <oklopol> yes yes but did you get me
15:39:30 <oerjan> as for special about today i'm well-prepared, as the VG paper had an article about kids with their 10th birthday today
15:39:46 <oklopol> for everybody's convenience, w^+ is primitive if there is no u in A^+ and n > 1 such that w = u^n
15:40:00 <oklopol> *... w \in A^+ is primitive ...
15:40:47 <oerjan> second largest norwegian newspaper
15:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> He phrased it as "hey, I've read annotated Shakespeare look how insightful I am."
15:42:07 <oerjan> ...haters gonna hate ;D
15:43:04 <oklopol> what's annotated shakespeare
15:43:51 <olsner> or perhaps he was exumed and used as writing paper?
15:44:09 * oerjan swats oklopol and olsner -----###
15:45:05 <oerjan> from latin humus, meaning iirc soil
15:45:11 <oklopol> because no one's still acknowledged my joke, 101010101010 = (10)^6, which is not primitive
15:47:12 <oerjan> well just two more years until this stops
15:47:59 <oklopol> there's a non-primitive second next year
15:48:27 <oklopol> but clearly (?) no other one this year
15:48:52 <oklopol> every non-primitive second must have a period of 6
15:48:56 <olsner> oklopol: what does primitive word mean?
15:49:17 <oklopol> for everybody's convenience, w \in A^+ is primitive if there is no u \in A^+ and n > 1 such that w = u^n
15:49:33 <oerjan> oklopol: erm why not 4
15:49:36 <oklopol> this is what combinatorics of words people think of as the "primes"
15:50:11 <oklopol> probably that notation should be biggest to smallest and not a random order like the one that's used in english
15:50:36 <oerjan> also the obvious one next year is of course 111111111111
15:51:02 <oklopol> 101011101011 is tomorrow :D
15:51:14 <oklopol> i didn't remember days and months change during a year
15:53:14 <oerjan> well from 2024 on there will be fewer non-primitive seconds
15:53:15 <oklopol> i think there should be a trivial reason for why 101010101010 is the only one today
15:54:13 <oerjan> well the period must divide either 4 or 6
15:54:23 <oerjan> and both give the same continuation of 101010
15:54:42 <oklopol> is it true that if w = uv, |u| = |v|, then if w is not primitive, u = v
15:56:03 <oklopol> but anyway just one choice for v
15:56:28 <oerjan> 101110 can be continued in two ways
15:57:03 <oerjan> one with period 4, one with period 6
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15:57:32 <oklopol> (i guess you wanted it for our case)
15:57:56 <oklopol> yes we're doing higher math with oerjan
15:57:58 <alise> have you lay-ped my game????
15:58:24 <oerjan> oklopol is being particularly silly today
15:58:46 <oerjan> probably due to long-time #esoteric abstinence
15:59:00 <oklopol> your the only thing keeping me together
15:59:59 <oklopol> there was a conjecture that said something like f, g primitive => fg^+ contains exactly one primitive word
16:00:32 <oerjan> i note that months have smaller range than minutes and days have smaller range than seconds, so only the year itself can prevent a day from having a non-primitive second of period 6
16:00:41 <oklopol> or perhaps s/primitive/unbordered/
16:00:52 <oerjan> this happens from 2024
16:01:33 <oklopol> but will there be years without any then
16:01:36 <oerjan> but 2024-2030 will still have period 4 ones
16:01:56 <oklopol> if you start with 99, you can't get 99 anywhere on the last half
16:02:19 <oerjan> from 2032 those are excluded as well because you cannot have a big enough day
16:02:35 <cheater99> so i'm trying to write a python script that attempts to guess a password based on how long the system takes to reject a password
16:03:39 <oerjan> oklopol: yes but those are all included in 4 and 6
16:05:10 <oklopol> yeah okay you're right ofc
16:06:14 <oerjan> 4 and 6 are the maximal proper factors of 12, because 12 only has two prime factors and 4 = 12/3, 6 = 12/2
16:10:08 <oerjan> 2029/02 is the first whole _month_ without a non-primitive second, i think
16:12:21 <oklopol> so we need to go past 2024, then 25xx25xx25xx works for a while for any month, and same up to 28
16:12:26 <oerjan> then no more until 2030/02, 2031/02, then 2031/04, /06, /09, /11, and all from 2032 onwards
16:12:35 <oklopol> i mean that pattern works for a while
16:13:13 <oklopol> then 290129012901 works, but 290229022902 doesn't, because 2902 is not a leap year
16:14:19 <oklopol> we could probably publish this
16:15:29 <oerjan> in that case, i shall follow my tradition of leaving nearly all the actual writing to my co-authors
16:15:48 <oklopol> we'd have a better chance with the toi's tcness proof
16:16:08 <oklopol> i mean that's what people do in discrete math, come up with a random esolang and program stuff on it
16:16:22 <oerjan> (maybe a slight exaggeration there)
16:17:21 <oerjan> i was refering to my tradition, not to discrete math. i'm sure you're _entirely_ accurate there. yeah.
16:18:37 <oerjan> cheater99: no surprise there
16:20:31 <cheater99> perform a statistic on the time it takes the victim to reject your passwords
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16:25:33 <impomatic> Is Brainfuck and example of Harvard architecture?
16:25:55 <alise> Ubuntu 10.10 is out. Ho hum.
16:26:22 <impomatic> Thought so, wasn't sure if there was a good reason otherwise.
16:29:17 <alise> impomatic: well there is always the distinct possibility that i am wrong :D
16:29:22 <oerjan> wait you can make a wish? it's still not over here...
16:33:02 <alise> http://www.ubuntu.com/sites/default/files/active/maverick/U2.1_photos_01_large.jpg ITT: Totally Not iPhoto
16:35:05 <alise> http://www.ubuntu.com/sites/default/files/active/maverick/U2.1_games_01_large.jpg What... what the hell are these meant to be? Strangest Worms clone ever.
16:35:35 <alise> What, they're hedgehogs.
16:35:50 <oklopol> clearly they are just worms wearing masks
16:38:07 <alise> [[03:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look. The Software Centre has started offering software to buy.]]
16:38:08 <alise> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
16:39:38 <alise> Yes. I thought they dropped that idea when they renamed it from Store to Centre.
16:39:53 <alise> I may refuse to upgrade out of protest and to have an excuse not to bother.
16:40:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, my /home is now on a separate partition, so I'm all up to some OS changing.
16:40:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Kitten.
16:40:18 <alise> Or Quadrant or whatever I'll call the damn thing!
16:40:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Mitosis isn't going to evolve into a usable OS for about 10 years :P
16:40:40 <alise> And it's more like a bunch of experiements.
16:40:48 <cheater99> are those jpg's of things you can buy?
16:40:54 <alise> A UNIX-alike operating system.
16:41:06 <alise> Not a Linux distro, since it's quite possible that it'll be based on BSD.
16:41:13 <alise> But it will be nice!
16:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, the Software Centre is trying to be the App Store.
16:43:51 <cheater99> windows is the only thing that doesn't have one now
16:44:17 <cheater99> also: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11494729
16:44:32 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: people get paid for their work. earth-shattering.
16:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, we are talking about "Freedom freedom happy happy" OS, remember?
16:46:09 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: there is about a quintillion commercial applications you can pay for on ?n*x|bsd
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16:49:15 <fizzie> It does make the hype on the home page -- "Ubuntu applications are all free and open source – so you can share them with anyone you like, as often as you like" -- a tiny bit misleading, though. Not that I claim everything in Software Centre should be counted in "all -- Ubuntu applications", but still.
16:51:47 <cpressey> < pikhq> The BBC has estabilished a new guideline for science reporting. < pikhq> All science news stories must now link to the paper in question.
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16:55:32 <alise> cpressey: yes -- behind a paywall.
16:56:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Still better than being given the link to the journal's site.
16:56:41 <alise> we need an organised system for pirating papers :)
16:56:50 <alise> a website where you post a reference of some sort, and an anonymous benefactor posts the pdf
16:57:00 <alise> and it's emailed directly to you or something, so it doesn't go through the server
16:57:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
17:00:38 <cpressey> < ais523> and will berate the lecturer at the next chance I get <-- C is always taught like this in universities though. "This function returns a void * for abstraction" is another one of my favourites
17:02:17 <alise> < ais523> and will berate the lecturer at the next chance I get
17:03:38 <oklopol> the correct way to teach c is not to
17:03:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, the correct way to teach C is after something else.
17:04:02 <oklopol> although i'm also of the opinion that everyone should know c
17:04:14 <Gregor> void * is the greatest bottom ever.
17:04:17 <oklopol> so maybe i'll agree with yours
17:04:23 <Gregor> TAKE THAT IN WHICHEVER WAY YOU WISH
17:06:16 <Gregor> Not technically, since only pointer types convert to it.
17:06:24 <Gregor> But I'm a heap kinda guy :P
17:07:13 <alise> I said what what, in the void *
17:07:31 <cpressey> < oerjan> (actually i don't think the finns were either, not sure about the hungarians) <-- the mongols got just short of hungary, it seems
17:09:58 <Gregor> pikhq, Idonno maybe Vorpal or somebody?, whoever might care: http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-VSTi-2010-10-10.ogg Op. 11 string quartet, done by VSTi's, borderline tolerable (and slightly better than it was last night)
17:13:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Because when it was 20 minutes long I went "wow, this is garbage"
17:14:16 <Gregor> Not garbage enough that nothing was salvaged for op. 13, but garbage enough that a lot wasn't :P
17:16:26 <Gregor> It had no consistency, so it just droned on and on.
17:16:33 <alise> Gregor: Sounds good to me!
17:16:35 <Gregor> Nothing to tie it together.
17:16:43 * alise links 9/11 to 23 in simple, easy steps
17:16:57 <Gregor> I have WIPPs of it, feel free to listen to it.
17:17:33 <alise> 9/11, backwards is 11/9 = 0.2 recurring. 2 = 1+1. So it's 0.1+11+11+11+1, and so on. 1+11 = 12. So 0.12+11+11+1, and so on. 12+11 = 23. Q.E.D.
17:19:01 <Gregor> OMG NUMEROLOGY PROVES THAT YOU'RE EVIL
17:22:35 <oklopol> Gregor: too little pazazz for my taste, this music doesn't in any way *force* me to listen to it
17:23:02 <alise> Gregor: Why are you GRegor and not Gregor
17:23:07 <alise> Is your name Gregor Regor Richards?
17:23:20 <Gregor> oklopol: YOU MUST LISTEN TO IT! YOU MUSSSSST! Also, the main thing the VSTi's are doing in my opinion relative to an (imagined) real performance is muddying things.
17:23:23 <alise> "http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-VSTi-2010-10-10.ogg"
17:23:40 <alise> Gregoregoregoregoregoregoregoregoregor
17:23:48 <Gregor> Actually my name is Gregor Regor Egor Gor Or R Richards
17:23:52 <oklopol> oh that's what was going on
17:24:31 <fungot> Gregor regor egor gor or r
17:24:44 <fungot> Gregor Richards regor Richards egor Richards gor Richards or Richards r Richards Richards Richards ichards chards hards ards rds ds s
17:24:51 <alise> ^scramble Gregor Richards regor Richards egor Richards gor Richards or Richards r Richards Richards Richards ichards chards hards ards rds ds s
17:24:51 <fungot> Geo ihrsrgrRcad grRcad o ihrso ihrsrRcad Rcad ihrsihrscad ad rsrsd ss d dasrhsrh dac dacRsrhi srhi dacRr dacRrgsrhi oesrhi oe dacRrgr
17:25:04 <alise> Gregor: Your new name is "Geo Ihrsrgr Rcard".
17:25:37 <alise> ^scramble Sgeo geo eo o
17:25:42 <fungot> Seth Gold eth Gold th Gold h Gold Gold Gold old ld d
17:25:46 <alise> ^scramble Seth Gold eth Gold th Gold h Gold Gold Gold old ld d
17:25:46 <fungot> St odehGl hGl od odGl l dd ldodo lG lGhdo tdo t lGhe
17:25:53 <alise> Sgeo is now St odeh'Gl.
17:25:57 <Vorpal> <Gregor> pikhq, Idonno maybe Vorpal or somebody?, whoever might care: http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-VSTi-2010-10-10.ogg Op. 11 string quartet, done by VSTi's, borderline tolerable (and slightly better than it was last night) <-- will listen in a bit, atm the listening conditions are rather bad due to loud powertools close to here
17:26:04 <fungot> Satan MacGee atan MacGee tan MacGee an MacGee n MacGee MacGee MacGee acGee cGee Gee ee e
17:26:07 <alise> ^cho Phantom Hoover
17:26:07 <fungot> Phantom Hooverhantom Hooverantom Hooverntom Hoovertom Hooverom Hooverm Hoover HooverHooverooveroververerr
17:26:12 <alise> ^scramble Phantom Hooverhantom Hooverantom Hooverntom Hoovertom Hooverom Hooverm Hoover HooverHooverooveroververerr
17:26:12 <fungot> PatmHoehno ovrno ovrtmHoetmHoeo ovr ovrHoeHoeovrvreerrrveoeorvorvo eoHmeoHmrvo orvo oneoHmtaeoHmtarvo onh
17:26:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: is now Patm Hoehno.
17:26:32 <olsner> Hoeovrvreerrrveoeorvorvo :D
17:26:46 <Gregor> ^scramble Satan MacGee atan MacGee tan MacGee an MacGee n MacGee MacGee MacGee acGee cGee Gee ee e
17:26:46 <fungot> StnMce tnMce a aGea aGenMce Mce aGeaGece e ee eeGeG ec ecMeGa eGa ecMn ecMnteGa aaeGa aa
17:26:54 <Gregor> olsner: It's Cherokee.
17:26:55 <olsner> now that could be an esolang
17:27:14 <fungot> Elliott Hird lliott Hird liott Hird iott Hird ott Hird tt Hird t Hird Hird Hird ird rd d
17:27:15 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:27:20 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:27:26 <alise> ^choo Ørjan Johannsen
17:27:26 <fungot> Ørjan Johannsen rjan Johannsen rjan Johannsen jan Johannsen an Johannsen n Johannsen Johannsen Johannsen ohannsen hannsen annsen nnsen nsen sen en n
17:27:29 <alise> oerjan: (is that right?)
17:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble Elliott Hird lliott Hird liott Hird iott Hird ott Hird tt Hird t Hird Hird Hird ird rd d
17:27:35 <fungot> ElotHr lotHr it idit idotHr tHr id idHr r dd rdidi rH rHtdi tdi t rHto rHtoldi tildi til
17:27:46 <Vorpal> alise, I think it fails at utf-8, only to be expected
17:27:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: use ^cho
17:27:54 <alise> to get something longer for me
17:27:59 <alise> ^cho Xrjan Johansen
17:27:59 <fungot> Xrjan Johansenrjan Johansenjan Johansenan Johansenn Johansen JohansenJohansenohansenhansenansennsensenenn
17:27:59 <fungot> Arvid Norlander rvid Norlander vid Norlander id Norlander d Norlander Norlander Norlander orlander rlander lander ander nder der er r
17:28:04 <alise> ^scramble Xrjan Johansenrjan Johansenjan Johansenan Johansenn Johansen JohansenJohansenohansenhansenansennsensenenn
17:28:04 <fungot> XjnJhnera oasna oasnnJhnenJhne oasnoasnhnehneasnsneennnsenennsansaoenhJenhJnsao nsao aenhJnjenhJnjnsao ar
17:28:13 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble Arvid Norlander rvid Norlander vid Norlander id Norlander d Norlander Norlander Norlander orlander rlander lander ander nder der er r
17:28:13 <fungot> AvdNradrri olne i olne dNradrdNradr olne olne radrradrlne ne drdre rr e enrdarda enl enlordarNrdarN enlo enlo irdarNdvrdarNdv enlo ir
17:28:13 <alise> oerjan is now Øjn Jhnera Oasna
17:28:34 <Vorpal> alise, I can't pronounce that :P
17:28:34 <fungot> Elliott Hirdlliott Hirdliott Hirdiott Hirdott Hirdtt Hirdt Hird HirdHirdirdrdd
17:28:34 <alise> ^choo Chris Pressey
17:28:35 <fungot> Chris Pressey hris Pressey ris Pressey is Pressey s Pressey Pressey Pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:28:39 <alise> ^scramble Chris Pressey hris Pressey ris Pressey is Pressey s Pressey Pressey Pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:28:40 <fungot> CrsPesyhi rse i rse sPesysPesy rse rse esyesyse e yy eysys es esrysePyseP esr esr iysePsrysePsr esr ih
17:28:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble Elliott Hirdlliott Hirdliott Hirdiott Hirdott Hirdtt Hirdt Hird HirdHirdirdrdd
17:28:50 <fungot> ElotHrlit idit idotHrotHrt id idHrHridddrrdidi rHtrHtdi tdi tirHtolrHtoldi til
17:28:52 <fungot> Elliott Hirdlliott Hirdliott Hirdiott Hirdott Hirdtt Hirdt Hird HirdHirdirdrdd
17:29:03 <Vorpal> ^scramble Elliott Hirdlliott Hirdliott Hirdiott Hirdott Hirdtt Hirdt Hird HirdHirdirdrdd
17:29:04 <fungot> ElotHrlit idit idotHrotHrt id idHrHridddrrdidi rHtrHtdi tdi tirHtolrHtoldi til
17:29:12 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:29:14 <fungot> Elliott Hird lliott Hird liott Hird iott Hird ott Hird tt Hird t Hird Hird Hird ird rd d
17:29:20 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
17:29:24 <Vorpal> ^scramble Elliott Hird lliott Hird liott Hird iott Hird ott Hird tt Hird t Hird Hird Hird ird rd d
17:29:24 <fungot> ElotHr lotHr it idit idotHr tHr id idHr r dd rdidi rH rHtdi tdi t rHto rHtoldi tildi til
17:29:31 <oklopol> scramble scramble and run!
17:29:59 <olsner> ^scramble >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
17:29:59 <fungot> >,>][][>][><[<]2.2]><>.><<,[>
17:30:20 <alise> oklopol: is omnivorol the right spelling
17:30:22 <fungot> acegikmoqsuwyzxvtrpnljhfdb
17:30:24 <Vorpal> olsner, wouldn't run alas
17:30:34 <alise> ^choo oklopol omniovorol
17:30:34 <fungot> oklopol omniovorol klopol omniovorol lopol omniovorol opol omniovorol pol omniovorol ol omniovorol l omniovorol omniovorol omniovorol mniovorol niovorol iovorol ovorol vorol orol rol ol l
17:30:37 <Vorpal> ^scramble >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:30:37 <fungot> >[,<<>[><<>->]][][].[][]>,
17:30:40 <alise> ^choo oklopol ominovorol
17:30:40 <fungot> oklopol ominovorol klopol ominovorol lopol ominovorol opol ominovorol pol ominovorol ol ominovorol l ominovorol ominovorol ominovorol minovorol inovorol novorol ovorol vorol orol rol ol l
17:30:45 <alise> ^scramble oklopol ominovorol klopol ominovorol lopol ominovorol opol ominovorol pol ominovorol ol ominovorol l ominovorol ominovorol ominovorol minovorol inovorol novorol ovorol vorol orol rol ol l
17:30:45 <fungot> olploiooo lploiooo oo mnvrloo mnvrlploiooo loiooo mnvrl mnvrloiooo iooo nvrlnvrlooo oo rlrlo ll o oolrvlrv ooo oooilrvnmlrvnm oooio oooiollrvnm olrvnm o oooiolp oooiolpllrvnm ooklrvnm ook
17:30:51 <alise> ^cho oklopol ominovorol
17:30:51 <fungot> oklopol ominovorolklopol ominovorollopol ominovorolopol ominovorolpol ominovorolol ominovoroll ominovorol ominovorolominovorolminovorolinovorolnovorolovorolvorolorolrololl
17:30:55 <alise> ^scramble oklopol ominovorolklopol ominovorollopol ominovorolopol ominovorolpol ominovorolol ominovoroll ominovorol ominovorolominovorolminovorolinovorolnovorolovorolvorolorolrololl
17:30:55 <fungot> olploioookoo mnvrloo mnvrlploioooploioooo mnvrl mnvrloiooooiooomnvrlnvrloooooovrlrloolllroooolrvlrvnoooioooilrvnmlrvnm oooioloooiollrvnm olrvnm oooooiolploooiolpllrvnm ook
17:31:01 <fungot> Chris Pressey hris Pressey ris Pressey is Pressey s Pressey Pressey Pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:31:02 <Vorpal> ^bf >[,<<>[><<>->]][][].[][]>,
17:31:09 <alise> oklopol: you're now Olploioookoo Mnvrloo Mnvrlploioooploioooo
17:31:11 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble Chris Pressey hris Pressey ris Pressey is Pressey s Pressey Pressey Pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:31:11 <fungot> CrsPesyhi rse i rse sPesysPesy rse rse esyesyse e yy eysys es esrysePyseP esr esr iysePsrysePsr esr ih
17:31:31 <Vorpal> ^bf >+[,<<>[><<>->]][][].[][]>,
17:32:06 <Mathnerd314> today (101010) is binary for 42... I still can't think of anything special to do.
17:33:11 <alise> Mathnerd314: maybe stop using two-year digit systems, and if you won't do that, stop concatenating them together for no reason, and if you won't do that, stop interpreting them as binary for no reason?
17:33:16 <alise> it is seriously the stupidest day ever
17:33:33 -!- calamari has joined.
17:33:41 <Vorpal> alise, stop being mean to everyone.
17:33:59 <alise> i never once insulted Mathnerd314. shut up.
17:34:23 <Vorpal> or do you mean "never before"
17:34:27 <oklopol> he was being nice to Mathnerd314
17:34:41 <Vorpal> but yeah, we should use 6 digit years
17:34:52 <oklopol> "oh Mathnerd314, don't worry, you've been wasting time that was in no way special"
17:34:54 <Mathnerd314> alise: I gather you don't like π-day either?
17:35:26 <alise> Mathnerd314: well. :)
17:35:34 <alise> at least it doesn't involve concatenating and then interpreting as binary
17:35:45 <oklopol> Mathnerd314: there was discussion about the sublattice of non-primitive seconds (of the timeline)
17:35:53 <oklopol> if you like non-primitive seconds
17:37:10 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: how did you become a holy man?
17:37:58 <oklopol> i just completely characterized the sublattice!
17:38:02 <oklopol> it's a chain! :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
17:38:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathnerd314, I... err... didn't eat any... erm... unholy food... for a few days.
17:38:47 <olsner> 2010-10-10 = 1990, welcome to the nineties!
17:38:58 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: pork probably counts as unholy?
17:40:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan would swat me, but I stole his swatter a while ago.
17:40:56 <cpressey> < Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: how did you become a holy man?
17:41:27 -!- antivigilante has joined.
17:42:19 <cpressey> calamari: happy arbitrarily-numbered day!
17:42:25 -!- impomatic has left (?).
17:43:54 <calamari> I suppose I should party when it is 10:10 am, 10 seconds?
17:45:59 <cpressey> I wonder if they did this in the year 1010
17:46:24 <alise> calamari: no, at 1:10am, 1000/99 seconds
17:46:27 <alise> (10.1010101010...)
17:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm saving my party for a ninth of a second after 11:11:11 11/11/11.
17:49:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that's Remembrance Day, so partying may be looked down upon.
17:49:54 <alise> hold a rave in the silence
18:00:13 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
18:00:50 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:03:56 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:04:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Because that will be the return of Jim, and I am waiting for that.
18:05:32 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Approximately 25 minutes in.
18:05:47 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I.e. pretty soon after they've managed to land that thing.
18:05:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, did you... did you just watch RoTS to work out that time?
18:06:38 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: If you call "skipping ahead in ten-second increments really fast" watching.
18:07:17 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, go check the zeroes of the zeta function and see if any of them are non-trivial and with a real part not equal to 1/2.
18:07:50 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover for thinking he has the swatter -----###
18:11:40 <cpressey> Combinator syntax question: Conventionally, SKSK = (((SK)S)K)?
18:13:35 <oerjan> also that's just K >:)
18:14:24 * cpressey swats oerjan with a left ideal <<INSERT VISUAL OF LEFT IDEAL HERE>>
18:15:06 * oerjan kicks cpressey through an ultrafilter
18:17:14 * oerjan well-orders Phantom_Hoover
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18:34:52 <pikhq> Why do people do things like making a torrent with a split rar?
18:35:11 <pikhq> It's not like BitTorrent will cry if the files go over 100 megs!
18:36:29 <coppro> because people are retarded and think split rars have better compressoin
18:36:38 <coppro> they also compress compressed video and the like
18:36:55 <calamari> probably because that's how they downloaded it from a newsgroup
18:40:21 <pikhq> Wait, people think SPLIT RARS have better compression. GAAAH
18:40:48 <pikhq> Isn't rar splitting just... Splitting + metadata?
18:41:00 <coppro> pikhq: remember, these are the SAME PEOPLE who think you get better compressions .RARing a video!
18:41:25 <pikhq> coppro: To be fair, if it's an AVI inside, *you do get some benefit*.
18:41:34 <pikhq> (AVI is a very high-overhead format)
18:41:58 <pikhq> Granted, said benefit is going to be like 10 megs, but still.
18:53:40 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]).
18:56:45 <cpressey> oerjan: SIIKK is also K, or my evaluator and/or my understanding is broken
19:01:19 <cpressey> to my dismay, i gave up on parsing the non-fully-parenthesized syntax, and i'm certain my evaluator could be simpler
19:02:12 <alise> hey, hedgewars is haskell!
19:02:19 <alise> <socket: 94>: Data.ByteString.hGetLine: end of file
19:02:26 <alise> is the quit message for some
19:03:16 <alise> "FreePascal >= 2.2.4"
19:04:03 <alise> hmm it requires haskell though
19:04:11 <alise> maybe just for the server
19:05:50 <alise> pikhq: Why is it so hard to find the ORIGINAL ISO for ag ame?
19:05:58 <pikhq> alise: Because FUCK YOU
19:06:26 <alise> No! I want a RAR of the installed game! I want a 500 megabyte multi-language version of the iso, not just the English version!
19:06:27 <pikhq> "Laik, everyone wants their disc modified, rait?"
19:06:38 <alise> I want a pre-no-CD'd version!
19:07:37 <alise> coppro: .reg + copy files i think
19:07:40 <alise> coppro: also, i'm being sarcastic
19:07:52 <alise> pikhq: The worst thing is, I've bought this game! Twice!
19:07:55 <alise> I just don't have the CD!
19:07:58 <coppro> you're never sarcastic
19:08:00 <alise> Give me the fucking CD!
19:08:30 <coppro> if you find one, tell me
19:08:47 <alise> coppro: i could download my own ISO that i put up, but it's unseeded and the Sold-Out rerelease :)
19:09:05 <coppro> if you get a copy, tell me
19:09:26 <alise> coppro: btw, to get it working in wine you have to replace a dll
19:09:41 <alise> http://worms2d.info/Main_Page is always a veritable fountain of knowledge
19:10:20 <coppro> but I need a copy first
19:10:39 <alise> yeah i'll find something
19:11:20 <alise> pikhq: how does one give a specific root to wine?
19:11:24 <alise> to have per-app installs
19:11:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: combinator calculus
19:11:49 <alise> coppro: instead of ~/.wine
19:11:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ok, thanks
19:12:06 <pikhq> alise: WINEPREFIX=dir
19:12:23 <alise> pikhq: oh yeah, you know that cheat thing deadcode wrote that i told you about?
19:12:26 <alise> and how there was an anti-cheat one?
19:12:27 <cpressey> oerjan: are you trying to send us into an infinite loop?
19:12:41 <alise> pikhq: that anti-cheat one *single-handedly* added win2k/xp support to the game
19:12:43 <alise> without the source code
19:13:18 <oerjan> AND IT WOULD HAVE WORKED TOO IF NOT FOR THAT MEDDLING PHANTOM_HOOVER
19:13:19 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: What? No, I only wrote it in the past hour. It barely just reduces SKI expressions
19:14:25 <alise> pikhq: and a testament to how good is engineering is -- if even one player in a net game uses an older, incompatible version of the game, all the newer versions will *emulate that version*
19:14:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: FEATURE REQUEST DECLINED
19:14:31 <alise> this goes right down to 3.0, the last official patch
19:15:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He's a quantum-computer-based cyborg.
19:15:48 <alise> His only thoughts are to program.
19:15:54 <alise> He has no emotions.
19:16:03 <alise> pikhq: http://torrentz.com/634f0cf224c90dbb84e8bb48f337cbe1b62805d7
19:16:07 <alise> pikhq: i think this is a multi-language version but EH
19:16:13 <alise> at least it's something that actually appeared on a cd at some point
19:16:21 <alise> coppro: http://torrentz.com/634f0cf224c90dbb84e8bb48f337cbe1b62805d7
19:16:31 <alise> it'll need a no-cd crack for sanity but That Can Be Arranged afterwards
19:16:36 <alise> oh and the directdraw
19:16:38 <alise> but again, that can come after
19:17:07 <alise> coppro: as always, remember to insert the torrentz tracker list :p
19:17:17 <alise> mmf download is slow
19:17:18 * alise looks for a faster one
19:17:49 <alise> coppro: pikhq: http://torrentz.com/4c6c424826f8e8dc277fefe4e1de9c92f5337855
19:18:34 <alise> 74 peers fuck yeah
19:18:54 <alise> things i don't understand
19:18:56 <alise> after removing wine
19:18:57 <alise> and reinstalling it
19:19:01 <alise> the wine menu doesn't come back up?
19:19:18 <alise> aha, because it's still in the cache
19:19:56 <alise> 995 KiB/s off a torrent
19:23:00 <alise> pikhq: by the way, quadrant/kitten will eat your firstborn as part of the installation process. and since said you'd try it, well...
19:24:33 <pikhq> alise: I'll have my cat install it for me.
19:24:45 <alise> pikhq: Is your cat fertile?
19:25:03 <alise> pikhq: You see, that just means that it eats its owner's firstborn.
19:25:47 <pikhq> Guess I'll just have to never have a child, then.
19:26:11 <pikhq> I'm currently doing that at a stunning pace!
19:26:15 <alise> pikhq: You don't want to know what happens if you do that.
19:26:19 <alise> You DON'T want to know.
19:26:26 <pikhq> What, parent's firstborn?
19:26:47 <pikhq> I am my parent's firstborn, so...
19:26:58 <pikhq> I guess I'll have to hit the spermbank.
19:28:45 <alise> coppro: I'll give you an online game after I get WA installed.
19:28:52 <alise> Also, I'll tell you how to set it up before that :P
19:30:05 <cpressey> Idea: implement a Mandelbrot generator in Logo. Have it draw the outline of the set using only the turtle drawing functions.
19:31:03 <pikhq> xhtml-served-as-html ensaddens me.
19:32:37 <alise> xhtml ensaddens me.
19:32:44 <alise> pikhq: You should totally download that WA torrent :|
19:32:52 <alise> We could all fail hilariously at the simplest of games!
19:32:53 <pikhq> alise: I'm downloading it.
19:33:04 <pikhq> Nothing about it parses right. Nothing. The web browser actually has to use its tag-soup parser to render anything.
19:33:07 <alise> Or start a CLAN (note: clans in WA are the most juvenile thing ever)
19:33:25 <alise> it used to be so bad that not having a clan in your nick made people call you a noob
19:33:31 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, XHTML is HTML using XML syntax instead of SGML syntax.
19:33:46 <alise> if you see something like xABxSomeIdiotxABx, that's a clan idiot. AB stands for Abrasive Bastards or similar!
19:33:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: <br> vs <br/>
19:34:21 <pikhq> <br/> in SGML parses as a br tag followed by a misplaced >.
19:34:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: SGML and XML have a common subset.
19:34:58 <pikhq> HTML made XML-compliant would merely use this common subset.
19:35:07 * alise copies WA.iso to ~ to begin
19:35:23 <alise> pikhq: yeah, <br></br>
19:35:29 <alise> of course that's backwards-incompatible with old html versions
19:35:43 <pikhq> I should note at this point that almost no HTML parsers actually parse things as SGML.
19:36:00 <pikhq> Meaning that there's *tons* of valid HTML that a web browser can't render.
19:36:22 * alise writes a WA-in-Wine install guide as he goes along
19:36:31 <pikhq> alise: It could also be <br></>
19:36:39 <alise> pikhq: yeah but nothing parses that :D
19:36:41 <pikhq> ... Erm, no, not for XML.
19:36:51 <pikhq> And if you just care about SGML, then <br/
19:37:01 <pikhq> alise: ... Links and lynx do!
19:37:07 <pikhq> alise: And the W3C validator!
19:37:57 <alise> WINE_PREFIX right?
19:37:59 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, did you do that thing with the multiple WINEPREFIXEs?
19:38:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah. Currently, I've got one for ie6 and one for ie7.
19:38:23 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'll be adding more.
19:38:36 <alise> pikhq: You'll be adding one for WORMS ARMAGEDDON YAY
19:38:54 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, does each copy use disk space for all the C: stuff?
19:38:56 <pikhq> alise: Also Steam. (which will have more than one app in it but OH WELL)
19:39:14 <alise> pikhq: ONE STEAM PER APP
19:39:35 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Only for a handful of things.
19:39:45 <alise> Oh fuck, let's hope audio works.
19:40:30 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Um, you get a bunch of small .exe's and empty DLL files.
19:41:45 <pikhq> 41M for a brand-new, empty wine prefix. Wait, seriously?
19:42:19 <pikhq> Oh, I see. It installs a full copy of Gecko for a WINE prefix.
19:42:46 <pikhq> (the mshtml implementation)
19:43:08 <alise> LOL THE INSTALLER LAUNCHER IS IN RUSSIAN.
19:43:25 <alise> I hope the setup isn't.
19:43:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hold off until I get this guide done.
19:43:31 <alise> It's a bit tricky.
19:44:39 <alise> Okay, the data seems to be in English.
19:47:00 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the chance statistically of his ISP murdering his family is.
19:47:19 <alise> pikhq: Phantom_Hoover: BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
19:47:23 <alise> It's in Russian, I think.
19:47:24 <pikhq> Quite low, to be realistic.
19:47:31 <alise> I will find another torrent.
19:47:37 <alise> In the meantime, save your disk space and delete it.
19:47:57 <alise> You might be able to patch a file to get it to work but *I'll just find a stock CD*
19:48:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: pikhq: don't
19:48:22 <alise> "Russian is only installation. After patching all will be in english."
19:50:01 <pikhq> I JUST HIT DELETE FILES AND REMOVE GRR
19:50:25 <alise> pikhq: I apologise.
19:50:59 <alise> pikhq: OH YEAH, make sure you have wine 1.3.3.
19:51:08 * alise downloads bianry package
19:52:27 <alise> Or online play doesn't work.
19:53:45 <Gregor> WHO'S READY FOR AN 8-BIT ORGASM?
19:55:36 <alise> Almost done the guide.
19:59:22 <alise> pikhq: I think this CD may be unusable for the purpose/
19:59:28 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:00:05 -!- wareya has joined.
20:00:07 <pikhq> Oh, hey, awesome. I'm now accessing the Gentoo mirrors via IPv6.
20:01:12 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/zee5-2010-10-10-8bit.ogg
20:03:00 <alise> pikhq: Okay. Stop.
20:03:18 <alise> I'm starting from scratch.
20:06:16 <alise> pikhq: There is a wrapper for a patched version ofw ine that apparently makes this work just fine.
20:06:19 <alise> I am trying to get it working now.
20:07:42 <alise> pikhq: The irritating thing is that with the not-yet-released update, this would work all out of the box.
20:08:23 <pikhq> alise: That is quite irritating indeed.
20:09:10 <alise> pikhq: Right then: Kitten/Quadrant will include a package that, when supplied with an iso file, will set up WA properly. :P
20:11:34 <alise> pikhq: I'm figuring it out now.
20:11:48 <alise> pikhq: What I may do is write a script that puts all this crap in one self-contained directory...
20:11:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:12:59 <alise> Define nice fashion.
20:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, what's your opinion on the suckiness of extant kernals?
20:13:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
20:14:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Linux sucks, BSD less so.
20:15:02 -!- augur has joined.
20:15:18 <alise> "taken directly from a original bought disc.
20:15:19 <alise> ISO, update & no-cd crack included.
20:15:19 <alise> Check readme for information."
20:15:37 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: A kernel is only a kernal if it's on the C64
20:16:57 <pikhq> alise: Hmm. Y'know a major upside to per-app WINE prefixes? If it's something I only use on occasion, *I can just tar up the prefix*.
20:17:06 <pikhq> Which is of course awesome.
20:17:32 <Gregor> Nobody listened to my awesome 8-bit adventure X-P
20:17:58 <pikhq> WINE: if the program works right, then it works *better*. :)
20:18:53 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/zee5-2010-10-10-8bit.ogg
20:19:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: pikhq: I recommend you download http://isohunt.com/download/181634533/worms+armageddon.torrent, sans the update file which you don't need, but with the exe.
20:19:29 <alise> Gregor: was it done on actual 8-bit hardware or emulation
20:19:39 <Gregor> ALL FAKE ... and evil.
20:20:27 <pikhq> alise: Does it have a peer list from torrentz?
20:20:54 <pikhq> If not, well, at least it actually has a working tracker.
20:21:05 <alise> pikhq: It does not, unfortunately.
20:21:13 <alise> But it IS the original iso from the original fucking disc and that's what matters.
20:21:19 <pikhq> alise: So, this'll be slow. But oh well.
20:21:28 <alise> I'm getting 150 KiB/s.
20:21:30 <alise> So it's not that bad.
20:21:34 <alise> 170 KiB/s, even, at some points.
20:21:36 <pikhq> I'm getting 0 KiB/s.
20:21:44 <alise> pikhq: what trackers does it list?
20:21:47 <alise> podtropolis, torrentbay and prq?
20:21:51 <alise> those are the ones i have
20:22:01 <pikhq> Peer list request timed out on the first two.
20:22:03 <alise> pikhq: i might be hogging everyone :) give it a minute
20:22:11 <alise> pikhq: pause and restart
20:22:13 <alise> the first one has peers
20:22:16 <alise> the second one times out for me too
20:22:29 <pikhq> But I just got some peers from the DHT; is all good.
20:23:10 <alise> Thanks for making me use my upload, bastard!
20:23:18 <alise> pikhq: How do you tell which ones are from the DHT?
20:23:38 <pikhq> In the list of peers, "H".
20:23:51 <alise> I'm downloading from you now, ha.
20:24:02 <alise> Now my download is slow. So you suffer!
20:24:04 <pikhq> X, BTW, is peer exchange.
20:24:12 <alise> And my upload is going between 4 KiB/s and 110 KiB/s.
20:24:19 <alise> pikhq: yeah, if you hover over it gives a legend
20:24:53 <alise> pikhq: Can you block me? You're making my download shit :P
20:25:05 <alise> It's fluctuating like hell
20:25:15 <Gregor> alise: Your mom is fluctuating like hell.
20:25:19 <pikhq> No, it won't let you do that.
20:25:57 <alise> pikhq: What I'll do sometime is fish out my WA CD, wherever it is -- the original version -- and make an .iso of it.
20:26:03 <alise> And then give it to anyone who asks that I like.
20:26:10 <alise> Plus a script that sets it up properly, hopefully.
20:26:23 <alise> That will be a lot less painful than this.
20:26:41 <pikhq> What's painful is the trackers NOT WORKING
20:26:56 <alise> FIRST AND LAST ONES DO HAHAHAHA
20:27:01 <alise> Pause it and start it again
20:27:06 <pikhq> I only get the last one.
20:27:14 <pikhq> The tracker just won't respond.
20:27:19 <alise> That means you leech of me more than is strictly necessary! Fucker :P
20:27:29 <pikhq> How many peers are you connected to?
20:27:36 <alise> and i'm downloading from them all
20:27:41 <pikhq> I'm connected to 6...
20:27:44 <alise> first tracker gives 7 peers
20:27:47 <alise> last tracker gives 4 peers
20:28:04 <alise> (6 seeders, 1 leecher, and 3 seeders, 1 leecher.)
20:29:41 <alise> Gregor: Make zee5 (Gregor's techno mix)
20:32:26 <alise> pikhq: While you're waiting, install Hedgewars from your friendly local package manager; it's so much a clone of Worms Armageddon that it borders on copyright infringement.
20:32:30 <alise> And it has networked play.
20:33:05 <alise> pikhq: In fact, I'll give you a game.
20:33:26 <alise> It sets resolution = screen res by default, so you'll either want to enable fullscreen or reduce it.
20:33:59 * pikhq is, instead, switching to per-app installs of Steam.
20:34:09 <alise> BUT THAT'S LESS FUN
20:39:34 <pikhq> Another nice thing is that if I decide to uninstall something, rm -rf does it.
20:39:47 <pikhq> No. Residual. Bullshit.
20:39:57 <alise> fizzie: Hey, what's the guy in H2G2 who always gets rained on?
20:41:56 <fizzie> alise: Rob McKeena, the Rain God.
20:42:07 <alise> fizzie: Heh, I just found that as you said it.
20:42:16 <alise> fizzie: Have you got the whole series memorised?
20:42:25 <fizzie> No, but I've got grep. :p
20:42:53 <fizzie> (I used to have it memorized reasonably well back when we had the trivia game running, though.)
20:43:18 <fizzie> Rob's a rather minor character.
20:44:14 * pikhq mocks the sharing of files that The Orange Box does! BWAHAHAHA
20:45:44 <fizzie> I don't think he was named.
20:47:58 <cpressey> "I'm not wearing a hat." "Nice head, then."
20:48:23 <cpressey> Or it could be "I like the head, then".
20:48:30 <cpressey> I don't have it memorized either.
20:49:24 <fizzie> "I like that hat!" he bawled. "What?" "I said, I like the hat." "I'm not wearing a hat." "Well, I like the head, then." "What?" "I said, I like the head. Interesting bone-structure." "What?"
20:53:57 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:00:08 <cpressey> Is there a name for the subset of C where a and b (in a+bi) are rationals, or even integers?
21:00:31 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, what's the name of the singer at the diner in Mostly Harmless.
21:01:01 <fizzie> cpressey: Gaussian integers are those where a and b are integers. I don't think there's any special name for *even* integers, though.
21:01:02 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: is i a real number? NO WAIT HEAR ME OUT
21:01:45 * Phantom_Hoover raises the crazy shields and sets mathsters to "stun".
21:02:22 <cpressey> There's no reason to believe the decimal expansion of i (er... you know, if such a thing were... imaginable) would be nonrepeating, or even that it would have anything to the right of the decimal point.
21:02:46 <cpressey> i looks pretty much like an integer.
21:03:19 <cpressey> It's just that it hangs around with this crowd that are usually reals.
21:04:05 <cpressey> And participates in the defintion of a plane that is built on top of the reals.
21:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> (Logically, forall a b : Q, a+bi would be a Gaussian rational, but I've never actually heard that usage.)
21:06:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The usage is extant enough to have a Wikipedia stub, at least.
21:07:51 <cpressey> I guess this answers my original curiousity... Gaussian rationals do fit what I was thinking of.
21:08:09 -!- flippo has joined.
21:09:13 <cpressey> Actually it feels like you ought to be able to "complexify" (Gaussify?) any field or maybe any commutative ring or maybe any ring
21:09:14 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:09:22 <pikhq> Y'know, Steam sucks enough that I'm considering just downloading a no-Steam crack of these games.
21:10:47 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, logically you should be able to Gaussify N as well, which isn't a ring.
21:11:47 <cpressey> Maybe. Maybe you could Gaussify C, too.
21:12:16 <cpressey> Probably just reduces to C, is what I was thinking
21:12:47 <pikhq> *Aaaaand* Steam crashes.
21:16:51 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:18:27 -!- zzo38 has set topic: This is not a real topic message. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:20:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Ceci n'est pas un sujet. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:21:16 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: That is better. Thanks
21:22:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I do not know French, so I cannot respond appropriately.
21:28:06 <zzo38> What is Underlambda?
21:28:45 <pikhq> alise: How goes the WA?
21:35:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: ZzzZZzzzZZzZzZ).
21:37:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:37:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
21:37:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:37:21 <pikhq> As it turns out, IE7 is significantly smaller than IE6.
21:40:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:43:07 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, do you know the Forbidden Secrets of Chemistry?
21:43:36 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: only to some extent
21:44:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's more physics, isn't it?
21:44:05 <ais523> I have enough of an understanding to explain why electrons act the way they do in covalent/ionic bonds, to an extent sufficient to make a few basic explanations but not really get to the heart of what's oging on
21:44:09 <alise> pikhq: 261.5/262.7 mb
21:44:13 <alise> nobody uploading to me
21:44:49 <Phantom_Hoover> The explanation that is given at first is so obviously wrong...
21:44:51 <alise> pikhq: do you have the whole thing?
21:45:30 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I can give a simplified and "wrong" explanation that's nonetheless better than the explanation you're likely to have been given, and has better predictive power
21:46:50 <alise> better predictive power -- useful if you're going to bet on what electron shells will do
21:47:10 <pikhq> alise: Uh, that's the whole ISO.
21:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, does 21st Century Science have anything on electron shells?
21:47:30 <pikhq> alise: It's showing the percentage of the whole torrent you have, not the percentage of what you want.
21:47:33 <alise> pikhq: Oh, what the eff. I started downloading the update.
21:47:35 <alise> How did that happen?
21:47:42 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, and feof/ferror too, as well as the somewhat obscure system(NULL) case. (And a lot of multibyte string functions when called with a NULL s.)
21:47:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I think it... might.
21:48:02 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, thanks for that
21:48:07 <pikhq> alise: Got forced to, presumably. Saying "I want only this" only means that your client will *try* to only get that.
21:48:08 <alise> I did them at the unit; well, "did", I sat there and turned my brain off while the obvious incorrectness was dispensed into my audial system.
21:48:19 <ais523> arguably, the system(NULL) case might actually come up, as it's a course about kernel programming
21:48:27 <alise> pikhq: "But I don't WANT that file!" "FUCK YOU, YOU'RE GETTING IT"
21:48:43 <ais523> and assuming that system() is given the correct implementation inside the kernel in question (IIRC Linux), it would be a quick test to see if you were a kernel module or user program
21:48:47 <alise> pikhq: Okay, I will now attempt to write a guide that explains how to get this working.
21:48:55 <ais523> ofc, a need for that test isn't likely to come up very often...
21:49:16 <ais523> alise: did you see my complaints about the C notes I was given to teach from, earlier?
21:49:35 <alise> ais523: sounds awful
21:50:06 <ais523> (also, the course officially uses gcc --std=gnu99; I suppose that's vaguely plausible given that it's meant to be about kernel programming and Linux the kernel is full of GNU extensions, but still...)
21:50:33 <alise> pikhq: So you have the whole thing too?
21:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, note how whatever 21st Century Science says, it will completely ignore anything past calcium.
21:50:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: did you do it or something?
21:51:06 <alise> or are you just basing this on what i said about how crap it is?
21:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I'm basing it on the fact that elements past Ca aren't covered until final-year-ish courses in school.
21:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it involves quantum, AND WE ALL KNOW HOW IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPREHEND THAT IS
21:52:26 <alise> I love our educational system; we treat people like retards, ensuring that they will grow up to be retards.
21:53:05 <ais523> hmm, zzo38 implemented Underload in TeX? that seems kind-of appropriate next to the Redcode impl
21:53:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I have spent at least 3 years asking every chemistry teacher I have how the bloody things work, to no avail.
21:53:39 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/.local/lib/worms-armageddon$ file cd.iso
21:53:39 <alise> cd.iso: PowerISO Direct-Access-Archive
21:53:48 <pikhq> alise: Install daa2iso.
21:53:49 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I have done. If you have any other questions about it you can ask
21:53:57 <alise> archive manager can't open it either
21:54:01 <alise> pikhq: WHY IS IT .ISO IF IT'S NOT ISO
21:54:05 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it does involve quantum, but not in a particularly incomprehensible way
21:54:16 <pikhq> alise: But, daa2iso will get you a proper ISO, so hey.
21:54:23 <alise> Man, anyone grepping the logs for me and pikhq saying fuck will think we hate each other.
21:54:28 <ais523> zzo38: mostly I'm just impressed, and trying to figure out how it works
21:54:51 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: OK, let's see... electrons can be in one of many different energy levels, orbits, and spins
21:55:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: God I *hate* that. I mean, quantum isn't magic.
21:55:11 <alise> pikhq: I just deleted WA.iso by mistake.
21:55:12 <zzo38> ais523: It isn't particularly complicated. It is a short program, and if you understand TeX you should understand this program.
21:55:18 <ais523> although it's not /quite/ true that spins are symmetrical, it takes really contrived quantum physics to find an example where they aren't
21:55:20 <pikhq> alise: Facepalm-tastic.
21:55:23 <ais523> zzo38: I don't understand raw TeX
21:55:26 <pikhq> alise: I just got an ISO.
21:55:27 <ais523> but I can try to figure it out from the program
21:55:32 <alise> pikhq: I hereby obligate you to upload it to a server that I have access to.
21:55:36 <alise> pikhq: Or -- even better.
21:55:40 <alise> pikhq: You seeding that torrent?
21:55:47 <pikhq> alise: I can go back to seeding it!
21:55:58 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I figured it out by myself a couple of days ago, with the aid of a poster.
21:56:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: so for the purposes of this, you can assume that "up" and "down" spins (the only two possibilities) are identical except for being different from each other
21:56:09 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: even better, I don't need to explain that way!
21:56:11 <zzo38> ais523: Now you can see if you can figure out, and any part you don't know, you can ask.
21:56:27 <alise> pikhq: Transmission thinks I still have the file X_X
21:56:35 <alise> Hey, is there any way to quickly recover a recently-deleted file on an ext4 system?
21:56:38 <ais523> the code for : looks pretty surprising
21:56:39 <alise> Is it in the journal or ... something?
21:56:57 <ais523> alise: the journal only exists while the deletion is taking place
21:57:12 <alise> ais523: Mother-fucking-fuckshitting-fuck.
21:57:13 <ais523> and unfortunately, ext4 is very fast at deleting large files, that's part of the reason you'd use it
21:57:21 <alise> I want a filesystem that's really slow at deleting large files.
21:57:36 <ais523> (in fact, it's one of its main advantages over ext3)
21:57:38 <alise> Actually I want an rm that just moves the file to a trashcan because I can't trust myself with this shit.
21:57:42 <ais523> alise: you could grep for a magic number or something
21:57:58 <ais523> (and you can alias rm to a move-to-trash in your .profile or whatever)
21:57:58 <pikhq> alise: Write an rm-alike!
21:58:00 <alise> pikhq: Okay, seed that thing.
21:58:05 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, I might just.
21:58:16 <ais523> hmm, what about moving to somewhere in /tmp?
21:58:17 <pikhq> And connected to you.
21:58:22 <alise> Alias rm to mv-to-bin, rename rm to really-really-rm.
21:58:28 <ais523> that way, you can undelete as long as you haven't rebooted in between
21:58:30 <pikhq> And UPLOAD MORE DAMMIT
21:58:36 <ais523> (or if you're feeling more adventurous, move to /var/cache)
21:58:43 <Phantom_Hoover> FUN FACT: the 5th-year physics curriculum in Scotland covers quantum in so little detail that they don't even mention the double-slit experiment.
21:58:44 <alise> pikhq: INSUFFICIENT SPEED BEEEEEP INSUFFICIENT SPEED BEEEEEEEEEEEEP
21:58:52 <ais523> alise: /bin seems a rather bad place for deleted files...
21:58:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Please put "mechanics" after that word. Just "quantum" is irritating.
21:59:02 <alise> ais523: The word "bin".
21:59:04 <zzo38> ais523: Do you mean the code for : in the underload.tex is surprising?
21:59:17 <ais523> it doesn't obviously match what : does, like the code for ~ does
21:59:40 <pikhq> alise: Okay, it is now the only torrent I'm running.
21:59:51 <ais523> also, is ^ using a temporary file?
21:59:57 <ais523> and does that work for nested ^ commands?
21:59:59 <alise> pikhq: I promise to be less stupid as payment.
22:00:26 <zzo38> ais523: Well, it does work. The \begingroup command in TeX is basically like pushing the state of all macros and registers to the stack (it doesn't work exactly like that, but it is close).
22:00:38 <zzo38> And ^ is using a temporary file, and it does work for nested ^ commands.
22:00:50 <alise> which is better than i ever got on the torrent itself
22:01:06 <alise> pikhq: you have great upload
22:01:07 <pikhq> Hooray, using all the upload.
22:01:31 <alise> pikhq: To be fair, I am getting it from three other people, too.
22:01:42 <pikhq> alise: I was seeding 3 other torrents and fetching 2 others...
22:01:50 <ais523> zzo38: using a temporary file to implement function calls rather reminds me of using multithreading to implement addition
22:01:51 <alise> Yours is the fastest though.
22:02:11 <alise> pikhq: Pfft, you're one of these crazy people who "seeds" torrents after they're downloaded.
22:02:20 <zzo38> ais523: And in case you didn't realize yet, the reason for \let\C=\catcode
22:02:22 <pikhq> alise: Private tracker.
22:02:28 <zzo38> is because the word "catcode" as "a" in it.
22:02:32 <ais523> zzo38: does an infinite loop as in (:^):^ run out of memory eventually, or does it actually run forever?
22:02:46 <alise> pikhq: I have a crazy ratio on Demonoid and I forget why.
22:03:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's something some guy made specifically for it
22:03:05 <alise> some internet-famous ... thing
22:03:18 <zzo38> ais523: The input stack is eventually exhausted. (MiKTeX (and probably others, too) allow changing the input stack size by a command-line parameter.)
22:03:28 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean the music that plays when it's panning around the statue of John Freeman.
22:03:31 <alise> pikhq: Hmm, only 1.46 ratio on Demonoid. Swear it was more!
22:03:31 <cpressey> I need to re-install Windows on this machine now.
22:03:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh. Dunno.
22:03:36 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:03:47 <zzo38> There might be a better way than using input files like this, but I found this the simplest way, later I might find a better way, in which case I can fix it.
22:03:51 * ais523 feels slightly trepidated
22:04:19 <ais523> still, I can't figure out how : is meant to work
22:04:22 <ais523> what are you using as the stack?
22:04:54 <zzo38> ais523: I am using TeX's internal group stack as the stack.
22:05:10 <ais523> and what are you using as stack elements?
22:05:25 <zzo38> The \toks0 register.
22:05:40 <ais523> oh, I think I get an idea of how it's working noe
22:05:51 <ais523> and : works because it starts a new group, but doesn't change any of the current registers?
22:05:57 <ais523> so it just copies what's there on the stack already?
22:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, merit of Gaz versions of the final two instalments in the FLC series. Discuss.
22:06:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: they're not as good.
22:07:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I never liked the fact that Henry and John Freeman are indistinguishable.
22:07:56 <alise> That could have been funny, but *eh* they're just not as funny.
22:08:04 <alise> Because the entire amusement of the series is how downright stupid it is.
22:08:10 <alise> And they're less stupid than the regular ones.
22:08:16 <zzo38> If there was a category code for active and begin group both at the same time, I could probably do it without temporary files.
22:09:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: huh, apparently the readings featured in the djy videos aren't his own
22:09:26 <zzo38> (I have tried the example Underload programs, all of them work.)
22:09:30 <alise> they're all from elsewhere :P
22:09:37 <alise> strange because they fit so well
22:09:43 <alise> "They combine dramatic readings performed by other users and music from the album Production Music from Ren & Stimpy, creating a distinct Soundtrack Dissonance."
22:11:54 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:12:18 <cpressey> Can't risk it; recovery CD is moronic. I don't trust it to not wipe out the Linux partition.
22:12:47 <cpressey> alise: Why I Am Not Re-Installing Windows Here.
22:12:56 <cpressey> also, I can print what i need to at work
22:13:09 <cpressey> or maybe even talk to this printer from Ubuntu
22:15:28 <cpressey> @tell oerjan The problem with the "non-self-similar fractal" of a triangle, square, pentagon... is that as n gets large, n-gons do tend to look... well, similar.
22:16:43 <cpressey> actually seems pretty close to the "non-repeating sequence <-> unbounded storage" thing... to have a non-self-similar fractal, you essentially need a non-repeating sequence
22:16:49 <alise> cpressey: no lambdabot
22:16:54 <alise> cpressey: ubuntu is pretty good with printers btw
22:17:32 <cpressey> and oerjan is pretty good with reading the logs himself :)
22:18:54 <cpressey> There was an error during the CUPS operation: 'client-error-document-format-not-supported'. When printing a test page.
22:19:12 <cpressey> I assume this means eww-your-printer-is-retarded.
22:20:41 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:23:23 <alise> What's that thing about atoms written in ... English without Germanic things? Or something.
22:25:48 <alise> pikhq: "Thanks Allan but I'm afraid I don't have that programming knowledge and talent for I'm not a programmer. [...] I am a software designer, an architect, a non-coding project manager you might say. In the old days the term was "analyst". My interest is more in designing algorithms, writing pseudo-code, interfaces and of course managing computing projects."
22:25:52 <alise> --Tcl wiki page 19
22:25:58 <alise> Desire to kill strong.
22:26:29 <pikhq> "720x400" WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT YOU ASSHOLE
22:28:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:29:09 <pikhq> alise: Take a 4:3 720p video, and rescale to 720x400.
22:29:22 <pikhq> Not 640x480, which would make *some* sense. 720x400.
22:29:31 <alise> Is that the right answer?
22:30:05 <pikhq> Moral of the story: the people who encode videos for torrents are assholes.
22:30:49 <alise> pikhq: Okay, torrent finished. I will try to have either a full guide, or an admission that it can't be done, in an hour or two.
22:31:21 <alise> coppro: Yes, but I have not yet verified its usefulness.
22:31:28 <coppro> cpressey: the recovery CD won't wipe out Linux, just the bootleader. Have a disc handy to reinstall that
22:31:30 <alise> coppro: It is *very* non-trivial to get it working in WINE.
22:31:35 <coppro> alise: I see the guide
22:31:43 <alise> *Sorely* outdated.
22:31:51 <alise> As in "pre-Wine 1.0" outdated.
22:31:54 <coppro> also I should grab trunk wine
22:32:03 <alise> it's the development release
22:32:11 <alise> older ones won't work online
22:32:19 <alise> pikhq: link coppro to the .torrent, would you?
22:32:33 <alise> coppro: and I'll tell you what to do with it soon, hopefully :P
22:32:35 <alise> once I figure it out
22:32:48 <alise> coppro: note: ubuntu repos version is old
22:32:51 <alise> uninstall it before installing 1.3.3
22:32:54 <pikhq> Uh, I no longer have it.
22:33:01 <pikhq> The link, that is.
22:33:03 <alise> pikhq: i'll get the link
22:33:11 <pikhq> http://isohunt.com/download/181634533/worms+armageddon.torrent
22:33:13 <alise> coppro: http://isohunt.com/download/181634533/worms+armageddon.torrent
22:33:29 <alise> coppro: Download that and I'll have the info on how to get it running soon.
22:33:31 <pikhq> Okay, I found something even worse...
22:33:49 <pikhq> Who the hell *posts DVD ISOs* but *does a re-encode for that*?
22:33:58 * coppro tries to figure out how to get the right git tag
22:34:10 <alise> coppro: http://www.winehq.org/download/deb
22:34:15 <alise> use the freakin' repository
22:34:27 <alise> save yourself many pointless hours and possible misconfiguration
22:34:52 <alise> <alise> there is a PPA.
22:35:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:35:10 <alise> you have to install wine1.3 package
22:36:20 <coppro> is the easiest way to switch base repos to use sed?
22:36:29 <coppro> I need to move onto the CSC's, since they're on LAN
22:36:40 <alise> coppro: the easiest way is to use add-apt-repository
22:36:46 <alise> just edit /etc/apt/sources.list
22:36:49 <alise> i wouldn't trust sed
22:37:21 <alise> are you seriously unable to make 4 simple edits without using sed? :p
22:38:12 <alise> coppro: are you downloading that torrent?
22:38:18 <alise> you're not connected to me
22:39:02 <cpressey> coppro: good point. i still don't trust it though.
22:39:15 <alise> coppro: well, it's all pikhq. and others
22:39:18 <alise> you're not connected to me, loser
22:40:30 <coppro> alise: your client won't connect to me :(
22:43:09 <pikhq> YOU SUCK AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.
22:44:27 <cpressey> i am running the gnome desktop yet i do not have gnome-core installed
22:45:06 <Vorpal> <alise> you have to install wine1.3 package <-- I read that as win3.1 and then as wine3.1 XD
22:45:15 <cpressey> it must be one of those wrapper pkgs and i hae the individual pkgs installed
22:45:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://zem.fi/~fis/siikajarvi-1.jpg → http://zem.fi/~fis/siikajarvi-2.jpg (May 2010 → Oct 2010; it's not exactly the same place, but at least it's the same lake.)
22:46:23 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:46:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, the first is familiar
22:46:46 <fizzie> Yes, I've linked to it before.
22:46:51 <fizzie> Probably with a different name, though.
22:47:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, idea: find one place (preferably close to where you live) and take one panorama from the same place every month.
22:47:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, "same place" would have to be "close enough that it looks about the same"
22:48:06 <Vorpal> and obviously it would be awkward doing that if not close to where you live
22:48:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do you think?
22:48:27 <fizzie> I would like to take panoramas from one well-defined point at each of the four seasons, then align the whole set with panotools, then blend the images together.
22:48:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, blend or fuse?
22:48:53 <Vorpal> both would give weird results I bet
22:49:06 <Vorpal> I mean, trees sag if there is a lot of snow
22:49:34 <fizzie> Blend in the sense that one quarter of the image is mostly one season, but that they blend sort-of-seamlessly together.
22:50:06 <fizzie> To use as a wallpaper in the phone; it has those four horizontally-aligned desktops, with wraparound, and glide from one to another.
22:50:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, as for well defined point, surely you can find that? in the intersection above some stone slabs (obviously for roads using such, rather than asphalt)
22:50:44 <Vorpal> might be a bit hard to find in the winter though
22:50:44 <fizzie> Yes, but I haven't yet found a nice nearby place from where a 360-degree panorama would be pretty.
22:51:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, if it is just 4 times / year then it might not need to be *that* close
22:51:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, how far away is that lake?
22:51:47 <fizzie> Well, not too far. It's just that I'm rather lazy.
22:51:47 <Vorpal> it might work well if you decide on a specific pier (or whatever it is called, is pier just for more fixed ones?)
22:52:05 <fizzie> 1. (1) pier, wharf, wharfage, dock -- (a platform built out from the shore into the water and supported by piles; provides access to ships and boats)
22:52:14 <fizzie> That sounds like it wouldn't apply to a floating one.
22:54:49 <fizzie> Might work. Though I can't reuse either of those two images; not enough vertical FOV.
22:55:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, why not enough?
22:55:31 <Vorpal> I mean, you have enough res to fill my screen vertically
22:55:36 <Vorpal> and that is more than a phone would have
22:55:51 <Vorpal> hm would be rather narrow on a phone
22:56:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw what irc client do you use on your n900?
22:56:10 <fizzie> If you scale -2 to 3200 pixels of width, the height will be 407 pixels; I need 3200x480.
22:57:07 <fizzie> And "none"; just the included terminal emulator and openssh.
22:57:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, which irc client do you use over ssh then?
22:58:09 <fizzie> Though I did take a quick look at that weechat thing.
22:58:39 <fizzie> It seemed interesting, but core-dumped just when I got it going.
23:00:07 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:00:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, on your n900?
23:00:45 <Vorpal> (I didn't know you had one?)
23:01:59 <fizzie> Just in general, I think.
23:02:07 <fizzie> It's a terminaly client too.
23:03:20 <fizzie> I did try out the x-chat Maemo port, but it wasn't really much of a port, someone had just compiled it with very minor changes, so it wasn't too mobile-friendly.
23:03:30 <cpressey> it has grown since i last used it, it seems
23:05:10 <fizzie> I think I have a local irssi on the phone too, but haven't really used it.
23:05:42 <cpressey> bugs me when i can't find out the license that a project uses in 2 minutes of browsing their website
23:07:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, which project?
23:07:35 <cpressey> also, there is no apt package for MIT dungeon. I guess because it's not technically free.
23:07:37 -!- fizzien900 has joined.
23:07:38 <Vorpal> URL : http://irssi.org/
23:07:42 <Vorpal> is what my package manager claims
23:07:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, that could be any version of GPL
23:07:57 <cpressey> yeah, i eventually had to go to ubuntu to find that out
23:08:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, took me half a minute to find
23:09:00 <Vorpal> http://svn.irssi.org/repos/irssi/trunk/COPYING
23:09:20 <Vorpal> download -> svn -> irssi -> trunk -> COPYING
23:09:43 -!- antivigilante has joined.
23:09:59 <Vorpal> cpressey, this is easier to read in browser (doesn't open download dialog): http://svn.irssi.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/irssi/trunk/COPYING?view=markup&revision=4488&root=irssi
23:10:04 <cpressey> also: "nethack-lisp"? this means what now?
23:10:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, what about it?
23:10:36 <Vorpal> isn't it just the emacs interface to nethack?
23:10:50 <Vorpal> that would be nethack-el?
23:11:14 <Vorpal> - nethack-lisp : Lisp window version.
23:11:28 <cpressey> still not exactly illuminated.
23:11:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, I don't have any ubuntu based system turned on atm
23:11:52 <Vorpal> cpressey, nethack-el depends on nethack-lisp though
23:12:19 <fizzie> This package contains the Lisp window version, required
23:12:19 <fizzie> for playing Nethack under Emacs.
23:12:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, "lisp window" eh?
23:12:35 <fizzie> That's what the package description says.
23:12:44 <Vorpal> I wonder what it means
23:12:53 -!- augur has joined.
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23:13:35 <fizzie> NetHack has the term "window system" for all the frontends; I guess that's just something lisp-friendly.
23:14:00 <fizzie> And the -el package would have the Emacs-lisp side of it.
23:14:26 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:14:29 <Vorpal> it doesn't depend on anything lispy
23:14:35 <Vorpal> Build-Depends: flex, bison, groff-base, debhelper (>= 7), libx11-dev, libxt-dev, libxext-dev, libxmu-dev, bsdmainutils, libxaw7-dev | libxaw-dev, libncurses5-dev | libncurses-dev, libqt3-mt-dev (>= 3:3.3.4-7), dpatch, po-debconf, xfonts-utils
23:14:52 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:14:59 <catseye> this is what you get when you run nethack-lisp: http://pastie.org/1211870
23:15:10 <catseye> i can't get past that prompt yet
23:15:32 <Vorpal> catseye, try one of 1 2 and 1?
23:15:48 <catseye> Vorpal: it just exits no matter what i put in
23:15:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's build-depends; it's for building all the frontend packages.
23:16:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, true, but stilll
23:16:08 * catseye thinks he likes weechat slightly better than irssi
23:16:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, it was the build deps I meant
23:16:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, so it is written in C I presume
23:16:34 <fizzie> Sure, why not? It only needs to print out sexprs.
23:19:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, and perhaps parse them
23:20:51 <fizzien900> Not if it just prompts for numbers and strings, though.
23:21:20 <Vorpal> fizzien900, well maybe it wants (93) or such
23:21:23 -!- fizzien900 has quit (Quit: wuup).
23:21:35 <catseye> oh hey, i didn't try 121.. that does something
23:21:48 <Vorpal> catseye, that's absurd
23:22:02 <Vorpal> catseye, maybe (121 option) ?
23:22:22 <Vorpal> catseye, maybe 121 is there to identify what it is responding to
23:22:35 <Vorpal> catseye, and what is that "something
23:22:57 <catseye> aoops, made it segfault by typing in 105 at a help prompt
23:23:13 <Vorpal> catseye, so what did 121 do?
23:23:40 <catseye> Vorpal: apparentl it meant "y" as it rolled me a character
23:25:11 <fizzie> There's sources for both the elisp interface as well as the lisp window system, so you don't really *need* to reverse-engineer it by trial-and-error.
23:25:18 <catseye> what's the key to redraw the screen in nethack?
23:25:37 <catseye> i want to see this thing give me a map
23:26:01 <Vorpal> catseye, why ascii code... you mean it sends it as number?
23:26:15 <catseye> Vorpal: for the prompts, yes. 121=y, etc
23:26:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah didn't know that
23:26:39 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
23:27:04 <fizzie> Decimal output in bf is necessarily a bit yeargh.
23:28:22 <catseye> i give up for now -- the menu prompts want something that i cannot give it and they keep segfaulting
23:28:50 <catseye> more games should have lisp interfaces
23:30:47 <Vorpal> catseye, weird that it likes to segfault though
23:31:31 <catseye> CLiEnTS sHOUlD bE WRittEn prOPErLY!!.
23:31:35 <Vorpal> catseye, I mean, most programs I would expect would find segfaulting pretty scary!
23:31:43 <ais523> <catseye> what's the key to redraw the screen in nethack? <--- control-R
23:32:02 <ais523> fizzie: amazingly, the NetHack windowing system is the only part of the code that's actually documented
23:32:14 <ais523> there's a file in nethack-3.4.3/doc somewhere that explains the API
23:32:19 <Vorpal> catseye, I didn't mean that at all, why did you assume that!
23:33:13 <Vorpal> ais523, there are actually comments elsewhere in the code
23:33:18 <ais523> that doesn't really count
23:33:20 <Vorpal> ais523, does that not count as documentation?
23:33:23 <ais523> mostly they don't explain APIs
23:33:28 <ais523> but rather other things
23:33:39 <ais523> also, there's the infamous PUT THINGS THAT HAPPEN ONCE PER PLAYER INPUT HERE comment
23:33:50 <ais523> which is a) completely accurate, and b) followed by things that shouldn't happen once per player input
23:34:13 <Vorpal> ais523, so what are those things that shouldn't be done there?
23:34:14 <ais523> thus the docs are correct, but the code is wrong
23:34:19 <ais523> Vorpal: by mistake, presumably
23:34:22 <ais523> it leads to the lava time bug
23:34:42 <ais523> and possibly also the reverse lava time bug, except that nobody's sure what that one is except the NetHack devteam and they aren't telling
23:34:44 <Vorpal> ais523, fixed in next release maybe?
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23:35:00 <Vorpal> ais523, and would the reverse one be exploitable?
23:35:22 <Vorpal> ais523, also how soon do you think next release would be?
23:35:23 <ais523> <Rodney> C343-231, fixed: Time is distorted while sinking into lava.
23:35:27 <ais523> Vorpal: it's on the list of exploitable bugs
23:35:33 <ais523> just nobody knows what it is
23:35:36 <ais523> and next release? who knows
23:35:57 <Vorpal> ais523, we won't see the fixed code until then
23:36:15 <ais523> nope, so we can't figure the bug that way
23:36:16 <fizzie> There's a poll in the wiki.
23:36:22 <ais523> (and even then, it may have been fixed with a rewrite...)
23:36:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, or nethack one?
23:36:44 <Vorpal> and what is the poll about?
23:36:56 <fizzie> Wikia one; on when the next release will be.
23:37:17 <fizzie> It's all just guesses, and not very serious ones, of course.
23:37:24 <Vorpal> ais523, you mean that they would rewrite just to hide what the bug was?
23:37:32 <Vorpal> or rewrite for other reasons?
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23:38:00 <ais523> Vorpal: one of the theories for the lateness is that they tried a rewrite and screwed up the code somehow
23:38:03 <ais523> and are unwilling to revert it all
23:38:39 <Vorpal> ais523, is it just the lava thing that happens in that place and shouldn't?
23:39:07 <ais523> either that, or lava plus something which has effects so subtle it isn't even obviously a bug, which wouldn't surprise me
23:39:15 <ais523> but still, the lava one is pretty bug
23:39:30 <ais523> you can die by sinking into lava just by viewing your inventory...
23:40:05 <ais523> (I'm not sure what to change it to to fix the bug; once per time-consuming action, or once per monster turn)
23:40:13 <ais523> (there's a flavour justification for either)
23:40:42 <Vorpal> ais523, is there a difference between those?
23:40:56 <ais523> yep, say the player's wearing fireproof speed boots
23:41:05 <Vorpal> ais523, also, can monsters sink in lava?
23:41:12 <ais523> more dramatically, suppose the player falls asleep
23:41:12 <catseye> Vorpal: Why did I assume what?
23:41:22 <ais523> monster lava handling is rather simpler, either they instadie, or they're immune
23:41:43 <Vorpal> catseye, that I meant the code should be properly written
23:41:53 <Vorpal> catseye, <Vorpal> catseye, I mean, most programs I would expect would find segfaulting pretty scary!
23:42:16 <Vorpal> that is quite a different reason behind it
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23:53:22 <alise> <coppro> alise: your client won't connect to me :(
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00:16:19 <Gregor> Op. 11 string quartet is starting to sound actually GOOD!
00:17:35 <pikhq> Perhaps it'd sound better if you blackmailed a string quartet.
00:17:51 <Gregor> But I have no blackmail on string quartets :P
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00:23:10 <pikhq> Hmm. So, my high school had two Japanese teachers. One was fluent in Japanese. The other had once been in Japan for a couple of weeks.
00:23:17 <pikhq> Which one do you think they fired? Go on, guess.
00:25:22 <Gregor> The fluent one has to be payed more because he's more skilled.
00:25:26 <Gregor> Therefore, he should be fired.
00:25:31 <Gregor> Because firing him saves more money.
00:25:40 <Gregor> This is the same reason why you cut music instead of PE.
00:25:58 <pikhq> Oh, and the guy who had once been in Japan was fluent in German.
00:26:11 <Gregor> Does he teach German too?
00:26:12 <pikhq> Guess what language he no longer teaches!
00:27:28 <Gregor> Then they don't have to pay him as a skilled German teacher, only a unskilled Japanese teacher :P
00:28:17 <pikhq> And I get to wince at the idea of students taking a year to learn kana.
00:29:22 <pikhq> (KANA IS FREAKING EASY)
00:31:07 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Kana_chart.png Do you think it should take a year to learn this?
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00:31:31 <Gregor> It would take me decades.
00:31:47 <pikhq> I highly doubt that.
00:32:00 <Gregor> I think you underestimate my inability to learn foreign languages.
00:32:08 <Gregor> Also my ability to correctly use subtle double-negatives.
00:32:18 <pikhq> This has very little with foreign languages per se.
00:32:33 <pikhq> By which I mean "little doodles on paper".
00:32:53 <pikhq> Also, I highly doubt you have an actual inability to learn foreign languages.
00:33:05 <pikhq> Just an inability to put up with the bullshit that is your typical foreign language course.
00:33:34 <Gregor> I will soon have an upload of op. 11 string quartet I actually like.
00:33:39 <Gregor> I ... I don't even know how this is possible.
00:34:30 <pikhq> Seriously, foreign language classes usually *suck ass*.
00:35:13 <pikhq> (see Engrish for details)
00:38:37 <Gregor> I think that statement demeans ass-suckers everywhere.
00:39:12 <pikhq> Why yes, yes it does.
00:39:18 <catseye> So - there are 3 partitions. The recovery partition is it's own partition. The Windows partition is fux0red and I want to re-install it. Ubuntu is on the 3rd. Ubunto also has all the stuff I copied over from the non-bootable Windows partition, AND the R part of the DVD-R is broken, AND I don't have enough flash drive to put all of that stuff on.
00:39:53 <catseye> The recovery program warns me it will wipe out 'drive C:'. I hope this means the WIndows partition. ANd that it leaves partition #3 alone.
00:40:10 <Gregor> It means the entire disk.
00:40:24 <Gregor> I guarantee it with my Super-Pessimism Powers
00:40:24 <catseye> Including itself? I don't think THAT is the case.
00:41:50 <catseye> (well, I KNOW it's not the case, as I've used it before. but I didn't have anything on the 3rd partition at the time, so I don;t know what happens there)
00:41:57 <Gregor> But it probably reinitializes the partition table to its saved default.
00:44:13 <alise> pikhq: Let's see if I can't get this bitch of a game running.
00:45:06 <alise> pikhq: The "original" disc is the Sold-Out rerelease. Which is alright.
00:45:11 <alise> It's not original :P
00:45:16 <alise> But it does have the exact original installer on it.
00:45:27 <pikhq> It's at least something that was put on a disc at one point, though.
00:45:39 <alise> So was the Russian monstrosity.
00:46:03 <pikhq> Something *sane* that was put on disc.
00:46:51 <alise> pikhq: WOOT FULLSCREEN INSTALLER
00:47:05 <alise> pikhq: do not worry!
00:47:10 <alise> I have SCIENCE on my side.
00:48:54 <alise> pikhq: The installer starts!
00:49:03 <alise> Oh man this is the one with the radioactive hazard sign on the sheep.
00:49:07 <alise> (...just a graphic when it installs.)
00:49:26 <alise> Lawl, it installs so quickly that you barely see it.
00:51:58 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-VSTi-2010-10-10.ogg
00:53:48 <alise> pikhq: Now I just gotta get NoCD working and see about DirectDraw.
00:54:17 <alise> Worms: Armageddon v3.6.29.0 Beta [EURO] No-CD/Fixed EXE #2
00:54:19 <alise> Worms: Armageddon v3.6.29.0 Beta [EURO] No-CD/Fixed EXE #1
00:54:21 <alise> I LIKE HOW IT DOESN'T DISTINGUISH THEM
00:59:50 <alise> coppro: I have it almost working!
00:59:57 <alise> Just need to find an updated DirectDraw and I'll have a complete guide.
01:00:12 <coppro> I have a win7 one. That's probably wrong, right?
01:00:22 <alise> coppro: Dude, I gave you a direct link to a torrent.
01:00:25 <alise> That is the *only one* that will work.
01:00:33 <coppro> alise: I mean the directdraw dll
01:00:34 <pikhq> alise: Hmm. Need a Windows DirectDraw?
01:00:36 <alise> In fact, me and pikhq gave you a link to the same torrent simultaneously, right after you asked.
01:00:44 <alise> pikhq: it's a patched WINE one
01:00:54 <alise> don't worry, i got this under control :P
01:01:09 <alise> [[madewokherd has stopped updating ddraw.dll for new Wine versions. Instead, he recommends to: grab the patch attached to wine bug 2082, apply the wined3d part, build wine (if someone wants to precompile them, wined3d.dll can presumably be dropped in like ddraw was, but the wined3d api changes often), set DirectDrawRenderer to "gdi"]]
01:01:17 <pikhq> Aaaaw. Windows DirectDraw is so much easier to get.
01:01:32 <alise> wanna compile wine?!
01:01:53 <alise> pikhq: but you were going to anyway :P
01:02:00 <Gregor> I compiled wine yesterday.
01:02:14 <pikhq> I compiled it once today. That's enough.
01:02:19 <alise> Gregor: With that specific patch?
01:02:37 <alise> http://bugs2.winehq.org/attachment.cgi?id=17739
01:02:39 <alise> Look how small it is!
01:02:45 <alise> YOU JUST WANT TO COMPILE IT
01:03:51 <alise> what, how come it works fullscreen but not in a window.
01:05:01 <Gregor> Gaaaaaaad, from 5:30 on it's totally real.
01:05:20 <alise> coppro: Compile Wine.
01:05:41 <alise> Gregor: The good kind of dark magic, i.e. light magic.
01:05:43 <Gregor> Pooppy can't solve all your problems!
01:06:19 <coppro> alise: You just told me not to do that
01:06:32 <alise> coppro: In this case, there's an excellent reason to.
01:06:36 <alise> coppro: *Not* to use the created Wine.
01:06:40 <alise> But for one specific DLL.
01:06:42 <pikhq> Gregor: My goodness, it sounds like music.
01:06:52 <coppro> alise: q1) Must I apply that patch?
01:07:06 <coppro> q2) Give me the necessary git commands to checkout the repo version and I'll do it
01:07:07 <alise> coppro: You must. Hey wait, I have an idea.
01:07:10 <alise> "> Here is compiled wined3d.dll.so for wine 1.2 with this patch. Enjoy!"
01:07:11 <pikhq> Synthesised, to be sure, but... Good.
01:07:13 <alise> 1.2 is almost 1.3, right?
01:07:15 <alise> Let me try that one.
01:07:16 <Gregor> The section from 7min is downright haunting.
01:07:24 <alise> your mom is downright haunting
01:07:28 <pikhq> alise: ... Wait, you're needing d3d.dll?
01:07:38 <coppro> alise: if it doesn't work, I repeat my comment about git
01:07:39 <alise> pikhq: wined3d.dll. PATCHED.
01:07:53 <Gregor> pikhq: Actually IMHO the main reason it's noticeably synthesized is the usual synth "too perfect" problem.
01:08:09 <alise> 0% [ ] 13,820 3.02K/s eta 11m 13s
01:08:12 <alise> Yay two meg files that take five years to download
01:08:13 <pikhq> Gregor: Also, the high bit kinda sucks.
01:08:14 <alise> Oh now it's sped up
01:08:19 <pikhq> alise: Any reason the real d3d.dll won't work?
01:08:26 <alise> pikhq: Because it's a hacky patch that breaks most things.
01:08:30 <alise> tl;dr wine is shit, this hack fixes it
01:08:34 <Gregor> pikhq: You mean the solo violin held note?
01:08:42 <Gregor> pikhq: Yeah, it's awful :P
01:08:52 <Gregor> pikhq: But everything surrounding that is awesome! X-P
01:08:54 <pikhq> Gregor: Sounds more like a viola. But yeah.
01:09:02 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
01:11:13 <cpressey> i agree, it sounds a bit more realstruments
01:11:38 <alise> http://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/system/emulators/wine/wine-1.3.4.tar.bz2
01:11:43 <alise> Apply this patch: http://bugs2.winehq.org/attachment.cgi?id=17739
01:12:05 <alise> and extract wined3d.dll(maybe .so after that)
01:12:09 <alise> Upload it somewhere
01:12:36 <pikhq> Gregor: This is reminding me once again that you make awesome music. :P
01:16:17 <pikhq> Gregor: Also, how goes Opus 13 Movement 2?
01:16:42 <Gregor> pikhq: I can't play it 8'(
01:16:46 <alise> coppro: are you actually doing that? :P
01:16:55 <Gregor> When I make the "final" recording I like to actually play it through, no severe edits, properly.
01:17:04 <Gregor> Every time I've tried, I've screwed up horribly somewhere.
01:17:20 <pikhq> YOU NEED BETTER HANDS
01:17:34 <alise> pikhq: Ping coppro.
01:18:02 <pikhq> coppro: CONSIDER THYSELF PIN
01:18:11 <pikhq> coppro: CONSIDER THYSELF PINGÉD
01:18:31 <alise> Consider thyself the pin thou art.
01:20:25 <alise> coppro: You know, your only hope of getting this guide today is to do that :P
01:21:03 <pikhq> alise: Oh, fine, fine.
01:21:06 <alise> "[NEXT CONTEST] What will THIS post's point count be midnight on Monday? Winner gets free copy of TF2, Minecraft, or donation satisfaction."
01:21:15 <alise> <alise> http://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/system/emulators/wine/wine-1.3.4.tar.bz2
01:21:16 <alise> <alise> Apply this patch: http://bugs2.winehq.org/attachment.cgi?id=17739
01:21:20 <alise> <alise> and extract wined3d.dll(maybe .so after that)
01:21:22 <alise> <alise> Upload it somewhere
01:21:35 <alise> Note: Do not use the resulting compilation; that patch is evil and it breaks more applications than it fixes.
01:21:41 <alise> It is useful solely for the extraction.
01:22:18 <pikhq> ./configure&&make -j3, away!
01:22:45 <pikhq> Dang, that is one evil patch.
01:22:47 <alise> pikhq: You trust wine with -j3?
01:22:53 <alise> I treat Wine like nuclear waste.
01:23:10 <alise> It is possibly one of the most perverse pieces of software ever.
01:23:22 <pikhq> We'll soon see if I shouldn't.
01:23:31 <alise> "Let's clean-room rewrite an entire, crufty, backwards-compatible-to-the-80s operating system's entire library base! For Linux!"
01:23:40 <alise> "Also, let's handle all the crazy direct hardware shit it has too!"
01:23:51 <alise> "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH OH GOD WHAT IS THIS"
01:24:10 <alise> pikhq: I like how it doesn't even bother dedenting the block.
01:24:18 <alise> It's just, like, "yeah, sure, whatever, {...} is perfectly valid."
01:25:05 <pikhq> alise: I find it quite impressive that it actually supports *all* the Win16 stuff.
01:25:33 <alise> I basically wish Windows software would go away so I don't have to be scared by Wine.
01:25:41 <alise> It is not my kind of program.
01:26:02 <pikhq> Wine is the single hackiest thing I know of.
01:26:13 <pikhq> ... Especially its Win16 support on x86_64.
01:26:22 <Gregor> More hacky than Windows itself? ;)
01:26:55 <alise> The Windows API at least makes some sort of sense in a kernel, on bare hardware.
01:27:13 <pikhq> It relies upon how no published Win16 program actually *used* its ability to write on all memory.
01:27:31 <pikhq> So, it runs Win16 programs in actual protected mode.
01:27:56 <pikhq> 16-bit protected mode.
01:28:25 <catseye> visions of sugarplums dance in my head!
01:28:30 <Gregor> That's pretty great on an OS that has no 16-bit binary support itself.
01:28:52 <pikhq> (it convinces the Linux kernel to set up the segment table *just* right on the wineserver process)
01:29:43 <pikhq> On 32-bit Linux, it just does the whole psuedo-real mode thing and traps the interrupts. Just like everything newer than Windows 3.0 does for Win16 and DOS.
01:31:15 <alise> pikhq: This is why Wine scares me.
01:31:53 <pikhq> alise: And yet its Win16 support is the least hackish bit.
01:32:12 <pikhq> Because most of the behavior (and essentially all of the relevant behavior) is actually known.
01:32:56 <alise> pikhq: How goes that compilation?
01:33:33 <pikhq> alise: So, um. This wined3d.dll.so. I hope it doesn't need to go in the system install of WINE.
01:34:24 <alise> pikhq: It does not.
01:34:29 <alise> pikhq: filebin.ca if you have it
01:34:58 <alise> I have to go in about six minutes, so yeah, quickness is nice.
01:34:58 <calamari> has anyone tried some kind of qemu hybrid, where the program is run in qemu, but the wm is intercepted so that X displayed the windows?
01:35:38 <alise> calamari: that's called qemu + vnc server or whatever
01:35:54 <pikhq> Wondering if it'll cooperate.
01:36:22 <pikhq> Uploading at... Slow.
01:36:50 <calamari> alise: so that would act like wine, where i could run windows apps in X?
01:36:50 <alise> pikhq: How big's it?
01:36:52 <alise> Also, stop that torrent.
01:37:04 <alise> calamari: Very slowly and with little to no keyboard integration.
01:37:17 <pikhq> 20 kbps; should be a couple minutes.
01:37:17 <alise> pikhq: Hurry uuup I have to go and I'd like to make sure it works first.
01:37:20 <Gregor> calamari: Closest you'll get is VirtualBox's "seamless" (is that the name?) mode.
01:37:27 <Gregor> Well, closest you'll get without X forwarding.
01:37:50 <pikhq> Seamless mode sucks.
01:37:53 <calamari> I got a game in my cereal box and I want to run it lol
01:38:02 <pikhq> It just makes the desktop transparent.
01:38:15 <alise> Parallels' seamless mode is ebtter
01:38:17 <alise> But that's a mac thing.
01:38:21 <alise> `addquote <calamari> I got a game in my cereal box and I want to run it lol
01:38:43 <alise> pikhq: I'm already totally late at sleeping my friend, do not taunt happy fun Worms player.
01:38:44 <pikhq> alise: http://filebin.ca/gsmdxg/wined3d.dll.so
01:38:45 <HackEgo> 238|<calamari> I got a game in my cereal box and I want to run it lol
01:39:10 <Gregor> calamari: Also, wine. It's, y'know, the topic of conversation here for the last day X-P
01:39:17 -!- Harpyon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
01:39:34 <calamari> the game wanted 16-bit color mode
01:39:45 <alise> pikhq: It almost works!
01:39:47 <alise> Menu works it crashes.
01:39:50 <catseye> calamari: what kind of cereal are YOU eating?
01:40:01 <calamari> catseye: store brand, believe it or not
01:40:09 <Gregor> Did you get this game in a cereal box fifteen years ago?
01:40:52 <alise> pikhq: Everything but playing an actual game works.
01:41:19 <alise> pikhq: Do not despair! I will get it working.
01:41:37 <alise> pikhq: My current great-great terrible idea is to compile wine <1.0, which I know to have worked in the past.
01:41:52 <alise> But hey, it logs into WormNET.
01:42:33 <alise> That doesn't look like WormNET.
01:42:48 <calamari> alise: btw how does a vnc server help.. wouldn't that just show the entire desktop, same as regular qemu?
01:43:02 <alise> but windows doesn't do X
01:43:06 <alise> if it's a game it won't be in a window anyway
01:44:05 <alise> pikhq: Well, you know what?
01:44:13 <alise> pikhq: I'll have a guide and something working by tomorrow.
01:44:16 <alise> Thanks for your help.
01:44:21 <catseye> vnc-like (-based?) conferencing tool
01:44:47 <catseye> tends to freak out when two users are both "the presenter"
01:44:57 <catseye> infinite recursion of desktop display
01:45:53 <alise> i like such recursion.
01:45:59 <alise> and pointing cameras at their display
01:46:13 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:54:22 <Gregor> pikhq: http://codu.org/music/op11/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet.flac Quell thy FLACitude.
02:06:00 <catseye> (Pair S (Pair I (Pair I (Pair K K))),"")
02:06:26 <catseye> this is quite a bit trickier than the actual reduction part, it seems
02:08:34 -!- cimon has joined.
02:22:28 <catseye> (Pair (Pair (Pair (Pair S S) I) I) K,[])
02:22:37 <catseye> Better! DOesn't handle parens yet though.
02:26:15 <Gregor> HTML5 Audio should have a "pipe raw audio here" function.
02:26:31 <Gregor> Then you could write decoders in JS and not be stuck to a format.
02:31:29 <catseye> (Pair (Pair S S) (Pair (Pair I I) K),"")
02:33:01 <catseye> http://pastie.org/1212086 <-- my awful code
02:34:06 <Gregor> catseye, cpressey: Is there a reason you're having an identity crisis?
02:34:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
02:34:33 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
02:34:47 <catseye> Gregor: the reason is weechat
02:38:12 -!- cimon has left (?).
02:38:24 <Gregor> Obviously we didn't excite cimon too much :P
02:39:19 <Quadlex> ten again, esoteria can alienate the normal and benign
02:39:39 <Quadlex> Also, those who don't like madness or tentacles, c.f. Cthulhu
02:40:56 <Gregor> (Obscure Spanish pun intentional)
02:41:11 <Quadlex> One of my favourite chunks of The Goon Show
02:47:23 <catseye> "It's a fast, statically typed, compiled language that feels like a dynamically typed, interpreted language."
02:47:37 <catseye> ... it's actually not a very nice feeling...
02:48:20 <catseye> I'm going to check out Plof instead.
02:51:58 <pikhq> Which is a runtime defined language. :)
02:53:01 <catseye> Which FEELS like a runtime defined languag!
02:53:18 <catseye> or did, until I just got the error message, "Cast failed
02:55:20 <catseye> Argh Gregor makin' me install autoconf
02:56:00 <Gregor> Did you download plof3, or Fythe?
02:57:16 <catseye> Gregor: hg clone https://codu.org/projects/plof/hg/ plof
02:57:22 <catseye> Do you recomment Fythe instead?
02:57:42 <Gregor> Plof3 works, Fythe is but the fevered dream of a madman :P
02:58:01 <pikhq> Well, Fythe has working parts.
02:58:18 <catseye> Gregor: configure.ac:7: error: possibly undefined macro: AM_INIT_AUTOMAKE
02:58:41 <Gregor> catseye: Don't blame autoconf on the fact that you don't have automake installed :P
02:58:45 <catseye> IT MAY OR MAY NOT BE IN THE SYMBOL TABLE. i can't be arsed to check
02:58:59 <Gregor> 'snot a symbol table, 's a macro expansion.
02:59:11 <Gregor> That message means "This looks like it's probably a macro"
02:59:11 <catseye> automake is already the newest version.
02:59:31 <Gregor> Then somehow autoconf and automake aren't happy with each other.
02:59:35 <Gregor> What command did you use? autoreconf?
02:59:51 <pikhq> There's your problem.
03:00:06 <catseye> There's an autoREconf? oh fuck computers are amazing
03:00:36 <Gregor> autoreconf, in spite of its poor name, is a frontend for the whole autosuite.
03:00:42 <catseye> whoa I have a configure script now
03:01:20 <catseye> if it doesn't know if it's a macro or what, the message should be "possiblE undefined macro".
03:02:23 <catseye> "or maybe you are write stupid code in your .ac and will face FULL LIFE CONSEQUENCES!"
03:03:23 <Gregor> error: possibly undefined macro: FULL_LIFE_CONSEQUENCES
03:04:30 <Gregor> Incidentally, you might enjoy Fythe, when/iff it exists :P
03:04:47 <catseye> Gregor: I have it built, but make install didn
03:04:54 <catseye> didn't install a binary? or
03:07:12 <catseye> output is line buffered i see
03:07:34 <catseye> Gregor: how do I find out what methods Stdin supports?
03:07:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
03:08:00 <catseye> #1 stupid problem of picking up a language: the common operations always have their own names
03:08:37 <oklopol> "<cpressey> actually seems pretty close to the "non-repeating sequence <-> unbounded storage" thing... to have a non-self-similar fractal, you essentially need a non-repeating sequence" <<< almost all sequences are non-repeating with the usual measure
03:08:58 <catseye> So it does NOT support multiplication. OK!
03:09:26 <catseye> oklopol: yes. but almost all sequences can't be generated.
03:10:12 <catseye> "Welcome to the universe! It's mostly chaos! And YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY."
03:11:12 <oklopol> in fact let's prove that: a periodic sequence will have the period n for some n, {x | x has period n} is a finite set, so it has zero measure with a nontrivial measure; therefore the union as n goes to infinity will also have zero measure by subadditivity
03:12:16 <catseye> i think the original question hung on whether any of these non-self-similar (or even uncomputable, let's extend it to) things had fractional dimension (i.e. were fractals); i don't see why not but have no way to show it
03:13:20 <oklopol> i couldn't find the original
03:14:47 <oklopol> well clearly you can just change one point and make it non-self-similar
03:15:50 <catseye> i think it was Phantom_Hoover who brought it up. Not sure exactly what he had in mind (since there are a couple of ways to define fractal measures, iirc)
03:16:02 <oklopol> yeah i just know hausdorff dimension
03:18:02 <oklopol> where you partition into sets S, compute x^d's where d is your dimension and x \in S, and sum up
03:18:07 <catseye> |{x | x has period n}| = ω
03:18:09 <oklopol> probably all the details are wrong
03:18:30 <oklopol> oh do we have an infinite alphabet
03:18:32 <catseye> it's not infinite but it's... not finite either
03:18:45 <catseye> but n can go as large as you like
03:19:17 <oklopol> no n is fixed; if it's not, then the set is countably infinite
03:20:24 <oklopol> i woke up at 5 am so i could do my homework
03:20:35 <oklopol> maybe i should consider doing that
03:20:46 <oklopol> unless there's more math to do here
03:20:52 <oklopol> at least i'm checking hausdorff measure
03:22:55 <oklopol> you take the infimum over all such covers where all diameters are smaller than a delta, and THEN you let delta go to zero
03:23:53 <oklopol> so the function delta -> this thing is increasing because less ways to cover are permitted
03:24:40 <oklopol> and then comes in le magic: turns out just one d value can give you a nontrivial measure for any set (iirc)
03:25:51 <catseye> mostly adventure games disguised as math
03:25:59 <oklopol> okay so what i said was correct, but what i meant was not, lucky me for using such vague language
03:27:30 <oklopol> or actually i guess i meant roughly correctly too
03:27:41 <oklopol> aaaaaanyway it's pretty cool this stuff here
03:28:11 <oklopol> i mean that would mean ANY metric space has a w.d. hausdorff dimension
03:30:59 <oklopol> SERIOUSLY HOW COOL IS THAT?!?
03:31:10 <oklopol> come on people get excited
03:31:41 <catseye> i'm as excited as my understanding of the material allows!
03:32:31 <oklopol> "<catseye> oh n is fixed" <<< union as n goes to infinity meant \union_{n->infty} {x | x has period n}, so it should have been clear n was fixed!
03:33:00 <oklopol> pfft understanding, you don't have to understand when you have a definition
03:36:49 <oklopol> so why is this an outer measure... obviously empty set has measure zero, obviously subadditive using the usual 1/2^n proof, obviously monotone because same covers work for smaller set, and... wait that was all :D
03:37:49 <oklopol> monotone being A subset B => m(A) <= m(B), subadd. being m(A union B) <= m(A) + m(B) but for countable unions instead of just two
03:38:28 <coppro> what are we discussting here?
03:38:34 <coppro> it seems like interesting math
03:38:57 <catseye> measures of sets of periodic sequences, I *think*
03:39:58 * coppro gets back to proving things about the divisibility of the Mersenne numbers
03:40:32 <oklopol> the 1/2^n proof is as follows: sum of all e/2^n is just e, so if A = union {A_n}, for any e, we take covers for A_n such that the cover of A_i is of size at most m(A_i) + e/2^i, this is possible because m(A_i) is defined as an infimum over all covers, so you can get arbitrarily close; then you sum up you get a cover for A that's at most e bigger than sum_{i->infty} {m(A_i)}
03:40:45 <oklopol> oh and we do this for each delta separately ofc
03:41:14 <oklopol> deltas being that weird number we used in the definition of hd measure
03:41:50 <oklopol> catseye: no now i'm just proving random things.
03:43:11 <oklopol> what i proved was that the hausdorff measure is an "outer measure", which is almost a measure but a bit less demanding
03:45:13 <oklopol> and an outer measure is actually really simple to get, because they arise from almost any kind of covering definition
04:00:40 <catseye> yay 10 pm on arbitrarily-numbered dat
04:06:34 <catseye> In 5 minute's it will be 10:10 oh boy oh boy can't wait
04:06:45 <pikhq> Get a better time zone, you.
04:13:46 <catseye> it will come again in... A THOUSAND YEARS?
04:16:21 <Gregor> Or, a much better day will come in a year and a month and a day and an hour and a minute and a second.
04:17:06 <pikhq> Get your time machine.
04:17:29 * pikhq fetches his. Gets 3600 seconds/hour!
04:17:50 <pikhq> Reverse is broken, though.
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04:18:52 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-fried_pizza I LOVE YOU SCOTLAND
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04:20:21 <catseye> "A common accompanying beverage is Irn-Bru, a carbonated soft drink."
04:21:00 <catseye> (it contains three different artificial sweeteners, if memory serves)
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04:43:07 <oklopol> and so i told him if he can't get his penis to behave, they're just gonna have to make him pay extra
04:45:08 -!- augur has joined.
04:45:28 <oklopol> but he just kept on sticking that thing everywhere, and i mean EVERYWHERE
04:52:08 * augur sticks it in oklopol
04:54:49 <oklopol> i'll respond when someone joins.
04:54:59 <oklopol> WELL I GUESS YOU JUST DID HUH
04:57:31 <oklopol> and that guy i aws talking about
04:57:39 <Gregor> And yourself, apparently.
04:57:57 <Gregor> The anthropomorphic cigarettes of the world forgive you.
04:58:16 <oklopol> why did lament have to apologize to himself?
04:58:33 <Gregor> <oklopol> apologize <lament> to whom? <oklopol> me and lament
04:58:36 <lament> i didn't apologize to myself
05:02:09 <Gregor> I was distracted by imagining you-slash-augur.
05:02:17 <Gregor> (With the emphasis on the slash)
05:02:25 <oklopol> lament: please apologize to GreaseMonkey
05:03:48 <GreaseMonkey> i suggest you set your tab complete on "most recent"
05:03:58 <Gregor> GreaseMonkey: You have committed the crime of having your nick start with 'Gr' :P
05:05:45 <oklopol> GreaseMonkey: i would never do that, because it's not possible for someone to be stupid enough to make an irc client that uses alphabetical order
05:06:17 <oklopol> also what GreaseMonkey erm Gregor said
05:06:40 <oklopol> my dog seems to find braindrill interesting
05:06:56 <oklopol> or maybe it just wants to poop
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05:12:32 <catseye> weechat's tab complete seems to default to 'most recent'
05:13:23 <Gregor> c[tab] = it gives a disambiguation list and doesn't complete at all
05:13:34 <Gregor> o[tab][tab] = olsner, for what it's worth
05:13:44 <Gregor> olsner: HI YOU TOTALLY WANTED TO BE PINGED
05:15:25 <catseye> so how do I find that one Chopin tune I really like
05:15:37 <catseye> It was in a ST:TNG episode once!
05:15:50 <lament> you can probably find it from that
05:15:58 <lament> or you can hum it and send me a recording
05:16:10 <catseye> well, it's not Noc. 20, and not Op. 9, i know that much now
05:16:46 <pikhq> catseye: Hit Memory Alpha.
05:16:49 <catseye> http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Chopin
05:17:05 <catseye> it was background music, though
05:18:58 <catseye> maybe i'll just have to borrow a compilation of his etudes from the library again
05:19:17 <pikhq> I'll just note that I'm the very model of a modern major general.
05:19:59 <catseye> "Chopin's second set of Études was published in 1837, and dedicated to Franz Liszt's mistress, Marie d'Agoult, the reasons for which are a matter of speculation."
05:21:50 <pikhq> The obvious conclusion!
05:22:23 <flippo> catseye, also get the Ballades, Preludes, and Nocturnes to be safe
05:22:48 <catseye> I'm *pretty* sure I encountered it in his etudes. Not 100% sure, so, yes.
05:22:58 <catseye> And WP does seem to have them all.
05:23:26 <catseye> but it's audio is not working for me now
05:26:46 <catseye> etudes: are they supposed to be difficult to play, or enjoyable? i guess both.
05:28:37 <pikhq> Huh. IPv6 makes mobile IP not suck.
05:28:49 <pikhq> So that one can have a roaming IP address.
05:30:40 <oklopol> simple puzzle: 6x6 grid, you're given domino tiles {(0, 0), (0, 1)} and {(0, 0), (1, 0)}, and you need to fill the grid in such a way that any line through the interior of the grid intersects a domino; possible?
05:33:42 <oklopol> i initially thought it was trivial, but took me ages to actually find concrete proof
05:34:31 <oklopol> (i'm not comfortable giving an upper bound)
05:34:35 <pikhq> (in mobile IPv4, packets to a roaming IP go to where they normally would be routed, and then those packets get wrapped and sent to the actual IP of the host by the "home agent". In IPv6, it works much the same except that every router is a home agent, and hosts are *expected* to be able to just wrap the packets themselves.)
05:37:54 <oklopol> the internet is such a mess
05:38:59 <pikhq> Retrofit on retrofit.
05:39:27 <pikhq> Oh, and shit hits the fan in a few months. Can't forget that.
05:40:48 <pikhq> IPv4 addresses all gone.
05:41:25 <oklopol> i hate the real world, all things should be designed from scratch, never on top of old stuff. i wish there was a god.
05:41:56 <pikhq> To be fair, IPv6 has a lot of it designed from scratch.
05:43:34 <catseye> well, i could not find it amongst the etudes, so maybe it is a nocturne. I do like this one though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tude_Op._25,_No._11_(Chopin) and no. 6 is also nice
05:44:13 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=124PxX6XPCM&feature=related i like this one
05:44:40 <oklopol> seriously though i don't really get this music, yet at least
05:46:01 <lament> well it's boring and crappy
05:46:15 <oklopol> well this song is pretty simple
05:46:24 <catseye> "death metal so pungent it made my laptop reboot"
05:46:33 <catseye> i saved it by fiddling with the power cord
05:46:56 <oklopol> lament: you can actually tell that's random and not just complicated?
05:47:54 <oklopol> or you just think it's really simple?
05:48:10 <oklopol> the first riff is a pretty standard thing but i don't get the latter half
05:48:55 <pikhq> Liferea, you suck at podcasts SO HARD
05:49:02 <lament> some tech metal is really complicated, this is not it
05:49:07 <catseye> good rhythm fux0ring is hard to do well. i still think it's hard to beat Rush
05:49:13 <pikhq> "Hmm. He double-clicked on the file for a podcast. Let's *delete it and redownload it*."
05:50:04 <oklopol> the part after :40 sounds completely random to me
05:51:19 * pikhq goes with "Fuck you, I'll try compiling Miro."
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05:54:16 <oklopol> lament: you don't happen to remember names of complicated tech bands? i chose this one because it's considered really insane.
05:54:40 <lament> i don't listen to metal
05:55:38 <oklopol> that first riff sounds like someone added whitenoise to dimmu borgir
05:56:04 <pikhq> lament: You should.
05:56:35 <lament> life is too short to listen to all the music in the world
05:56:36 <oklopol> lament: what do you think of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5_GzuM7ZiU ?
05:56:51 <pikhq> That's why you should be immortal.
05:56:55 <pikhq> Also, only the good music.
05:57:50 <oklopol> faceless is one of the few bands of this type i actually get, and still find them good
05:58:02 <oklopol> usually it's hours of listening and then realizing ah, it was crap all along
05:59:54 <oklopol> also i think i listen to this stuff because of the wrong reasons, because the same people who listen to these sensible ones listen to ones where you repeat the same riff for 5 minutes and the singer has a REALLY COOL GROWL.
06:00:07 <oklopol> maybe i should get better friends
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06:12:15 <Ilari> Hah... Ocassionally this way too: "A is the best predictor for B". Yeah, probably, since B is _known_ to _cause_ A.
06:13:10 <Ilari> (and guess what field of "science" the example of this I ran into was from?)
06:15:38 <Gregor> That doesn't mean that A is the best predictor for B, since that statement alone doesn't say that nothing else causes A.
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06:39:59 <pikhq> Aaand the Miro ebuild is the single most broken thing ever.
06:40:08 <pikhq> It essentially cannot build.
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06:40:23 <pikhq> There is literally no configuration of Gentoo wherein it will build anymore.
06:40:35 <pikhq> That is so very fucked up.
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07:14:45 <oerjan> <cpressey> @tell oerjan The problem with the "non-self-similar fractal" of a triangle, square, pentagon... is that as n gets large, n-gons do tend to look... well, similar.
07:16:36 <oerjan> in some sense the problem is that up to a given level of approximation, there are only a finite number of shapes.
07:17:56 <oerjan> say if by approximation you mean n*n bit pattern, only 2^(n*n) ones.
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08:15:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, what? xkcd is funny? *checks*
08:16:41 <Vorpal> wareya, new? you mean the last one?
08:16:52 <wareya> the one up as of today
08:19:34 <oerjan> (don't forget the hovertext)
08:23:59 <Vorpal> oerjan, of course not, what was Solomon known for again
08:25:25 <Vorpal> oerjan, but actually I'm agnostic :P
08:26:02 <Vorpal> as in, if they manage to scientifically prove any religion I'm prepared to accept that it might be a viable theory
08:26:09 <Vorpal> fat chance for that though :P
08:29:58 <Vorpal> the only religion I know of that comes even close to not contradicting most of what we scientifically know today is Buddhism.
08:30:30 <wareya> And that's why I would be a buddhist if I ever 'had to' pick a religion.
08:30:52 <wareya> There are some supernatural flavors of buddhism, though.
08:31:37 <Vorpal> wareya, hm? Well some of the seemingly supernatural stuff is stuff there is no evidence either way for. I mean, reincarnation, there is absolutely no proof in any direction there
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08:32:17 <wareya> I mean the ones that worship the original buddha as a god, or that promise immediate effects of karma.
08:32:34 <Vorpal> hm okay, I wasn't aware of such variants
08:35:11 <Vorpal> wareya, in some aspects buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion I'd say
08:35:55 <Vorpal> but less so than many other ones
08:35:58 <wareya> even if it's philosophical instead of theistic
08:36:22 <Vorpal> wareya this is why I said "in some aspects"
08:37:50 <Vorpal> wareya, you are not one of those nick changers right?
08:38:02 * Vorpal keeps thinking that wareya must be warringal (sp?)
08:38:58 <Vorpal> those persistent nick changers are confusing. I mean, I just permanently changed nick once since I went on irc
08:39:00 <wareya> imagine a language where you can have negative sized variables
08:39:21 <Vorpal> wareya, I'd love to, but then I'll miss the bus to university. So bbl!
08:44:47 <lament> all kinds buddhism promise effects of karma
08:47:08 <wareya> That's why I said immediate
08:53:57 <lament> regardless of it being immediate or not that's a religious thing
08:54:32 <lament> or at least supernatural
08:55:11 <wareya> If the promises of karma's effects happen after reincarnation, then they're unarguable
09:00:34 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_characteristics_of_the_Buddha#The_32_Signs_of_the_Great_Man
09:25:41 <wareya> What about that, lament?
09:53:46 <Slereah> # His sexual organs are concealed in a sheath. It also produces smegma with a fragrant odour. (Pali: kosohitavatguyho).
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00:08:22 <Vorpal> creating new ones on the fly
00:08:32 <catseye> since the topics have come up: one thing DragonFlyBSD can do is sleep for very small amounts of time very accurately. I don't remember if it's <0.1ms or not. It accomplishes it with a PLL implemented in software. (Whatever else may be true, Matt can be a very clever engineer.)
00:08:38 <Gregor> Awwwww, I have a purry kitty!
00:08:45 <Vorpal> VG #PV #LV #SN Attr VSize VFree
00:08:46 <Vorpal> array 1 9 0 wz--n- 927,32g 543,32g
00:08:59 <Vorpal> LV VG Attr LSize Origin Snap% Move Log Copy% Convert
00:08:59 <Vorpal> ccache array -wi-ao 2,00g
00:08:59 <Vorpal> home array -wi-ao 70,00g
00:09:01 <elliott> olsner: lvm isn't that useful.
00:09:09 <olsner> what happens to the file systems when you resize partitions though?
00:09:11 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on your needs
00:09:19 <elliott> specifically, it has an impossibly incomprehensibly badly designed UI
00:09:31 <Vorpal> olsner, you have to run the resizing tool for that to grow it, or shrink it in advance
00:09:33 <elliott> and you have to be like Vorpal and pretend you actually have a use for any of this shit
00:09:39 <Vorpal> olsner, ext3 can do online resising
00:09:39 <elliott> through advanced self-delusion
00:09:44 <catseye> of course, i try to search for this, all i get is netbsd
00:09:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I actually *have* use for it
00:10:15 <olsner> I'm pretty convinced that ext3 is pretty sucky
00:10:21 <catseye> here it is: http://www.dragonflybsd.org/presentations/nanosleep/
00:10:34 <Vorpal> olsner, ext4 can as well
00:10:39 <Vorpal> olsner, same for xfs, jfs and several other ones
00:10:41 <elliott> catseye: you mean dragonfly :P
00:10:48 <olsner> I use ReiserFS the killer file system :D
00:10:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I do have use for a lot
00:10:55 <Vorpal> elliott, not for every single feature of course
00:10:57 <elliott> Vorpal: no you don't, you just like to think you do
00:11:00 <elliott> and use the features simply because they're there
00:11:36 <catseye> elliott: unless they changed the name, it's officially DragonFlyBSD (yes, with the studly F)
00:11:40 <Vorpal> olsner, suggestion: read about lvm, make up your own mind
00:11:56 <elliott> but it has the BSD catted on other pages
00:12:01 <olsner> I would like to use ZFS, it always sounds super sexy, but iirc there are silly licensing issues that prevents integrating it in linux
00:12:07 <elliott> "Recent news from the DragonFly Digest
00:12:07 <elliott> Firefox really, finally, actually fixed
00:12:10 <elliott> Hey, project pages do work"
00:12:12 <catseye> elliott: then they're... breaking formation
00:12:21 <elliott> catseye: was that a pun? oh god.
00:12:26 <catseye> flying thing pun not intended! no!
00:12:46 <Vorpal> catseye, that was awful
00:12:54 <catseye> Just, all the other BSDs do vnogfffffgghhhhhhhhhhhhh not have spaces in them
00:13:33 <catseye> they still gots the studly F tho
00:13:42 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, Ubuntu includes very nice Japanese fonts by default.
00:13:52 <elliott> As of two releases ago or something like that. Maybe more.
00:14:00 <elliott> catseye: Is your cat the cat whose eye it is?
00:14:38 <olsner> can eyes of cats not own other cats?
00:14:56 <catseye> elliott: no, for complicated reasons
00:15:10 <elliott> catseye: Death? Destruction? Adoption? Run-away?
00:16:22 <pikhq> elliott: Oh really?
00:16:43 <elliott> pikhq: I can screenshot those characters if you restate them without highlighting me so that they aren't in ugly red.
00:16:49 <elliott> I'm pretty sure they're the takao fonts.
00:17:34 <elliott> pikhq: http://imgur.com/yUCEF.png
00:17:55 <catseye> elliott: it is a deep mystery, involving klein bottles and tuna
00:18:12 <pikhq> Teah, that's a pretty reasonable font.
02:19:53 <Gregor> antivigilante: The sheet music isn't QUITE done yet.
02:19:59 <Gregor> antivigilante: Go read the sheet music for mov. 1 :P
02:20:07 <quintopia> i want a midi, so i can try it with my own piano samples
02:20:14 <Gregor> Oh, sure, that I can do.
02:20:20 <Gregor> In fact, I just forgot to upload that.
02:20:25 <Gregor> I usually do (a "digital piano roll")
02:20:30 <Gregor> Anyway, fixes to do ...
02:21:38 <Gregor> antivigilante: http://codu.org/music/
02:22:44 <quintopia> also, you wouldn't happen to have KRegor versions would you? i don't actually hate Qt.
02:24:07 * Gregor stabs quintopia in the face
02:25:08 <pikhq> Gregor: What's the title of this movement?
02:25:28 <Gregor> <-- so original with names
02:25:45 <Gregor> Fluidsynth seems to be failing me here ... STOP CUTTING IT OFF!
02:25:46 <pikhq> Consider it tagged.
02:26:20 <Gregor> pikhq: It wasn't tagged either???
02:26:27 <Gregor> Argh, wtf happened producing these X_X
02:26:34 <Gregor> Cut off, untagged, weird audio, wtfwtfwtf
02:26:35 <quintopia> why you wanna be all up in my Haterade and you don't even know the flava?
02:26:49 <pikhq> Gregor: I would've had to retag it anyways; I am *picky*.
02:26:59 <pikhq> ... Wait, *cut off*?
02:27:16 <Gregor> pikhq: Just the last note wasn't allowed to decay.
02:27:27 <pikhq> Still, irritating.
02:27:44 <pikhq> Gregor: BTW, Finale in Three is quite nice.
02:28:51 <antivigilante> i have a conspiracy + self-help site FIT (finale in three is gold)
02:30:04 <Gregor> antivigilante: That ... was the most incomprehensible sentence I have ever read.
02:31:03 <antivigilante> Gregor could you add like an 8th rest so Fluidsynth doesn't drop it
02:31:23 <Gregor> antivigilante: Exactly what I'm doing :P
02:31:37 <quintopia> The sainted sentence barked wistfully reminiscent of transparent golden emotional smypathies in clever Hungarian dog-faced noodle branches.
02:33:37 <Gregor> antivigilante: All of my works are under CC-by-sa
02:34:23 <Gregor> But wait until I've fixed the weirdness in this ...
02:36:21 <zzo38> Try to write a music using non-standard notes other than 12-TET in some time. Try writing Bohlen-Pierce, and whatever else you can come up with
02:37:46 <Gregor> zzo38: I did once ... I ended up writing something that was just really out-of-tune 12-TET, and then rewriting that into ... Opus 8 maybe?
02:39:51 <zzo38> Gregor: Try something else, instead of just writing really out-of-tune 12-TET.... I have written a few Bohlen-Pierce musics
02:40:34 <Gregor> It wasn't my intent to write out-of-tune 12-TET X-P
02:41:51 <zzo38> Gregor: That is what I thought. What was your intent?
02:42:25 <Gregor> IIRC, it was equal-temperament 10-ary octaves.
02:43:34 <zzo38> Perhaps try something else next time, other than equal-temperament 10-ary octaves, and then see if you can do it better without making the same mistake
02:43:37 <quintopia> but, you know, hearing nothing but 12-TET musics for 25 years can make any variation sound awful
02:44:14 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2.ogg updated, others forthcoming, http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2.mid for whoever wanted a digital piano roll.
02:44:37 <zzo38> Forms of just-intonation can work well for music that does a good use of it.
02:45:00 <quintopia> suggestion: try mixing 12-TET with just intonation in some key. it can have some very interesting effects.
02:47:01 <Gregor> Anyway, my next musical directions are either making a real acoustic version of zee3 (which may very well be worthy of becoming Opus 14) or making a conductor program and using it to make a concerto that actually doesn't sound horrible played by a computer.
02:47:21 <quintopia> notable work of this form: Tombeau de Messin by Jonathan Harvey
02:48:39 <zzo38> I am trying to add some features to PPMCK
02:49:16 <Gregor> quintopia: btw, what's your piano soundfont that's so much better than mine?
02:51:27 <lament> what does a conductor program do?
02:51:47 <lament> about any variation sounding awful
02:51:53 <lament> gamelan sounds pretty great
02:52:02 <lament> most variations sound awful because they are awful
02:52:38 <lament> they're invented by shitty musicians who care about music theory more than about music
02:52:46 <Gregor> lament: Hypothetically, allows one to add human tempo and dynamics to inhuman MIDI data. An example of such a program is Tapper, which works well but IMHO isn't suitable for multiple instruments.
02:53:06 * Gregor applauds lament's willingness to say things that Gregor is thinking :P
02:54:18 <catseye> Gregor: SO when you said you were writing a conductor you were *not* referring to a bfjoust strategy?
02:54:32 <Gregor> catseye: ... *sobblecopter*
02:55:58 <catseye> could always try to make it a polyglot i suppose
02:56:00 <Gregor> lament: My conductor program concept is that you go from flat MIDI to good MIDI through two phases. First you tap out the tempo, and it inserts, say, 10 tempo-change events per beat to give it a smooth tempo variation while keeping the note timing right. Then, once per instrument, you play to add dynamics, with both tapping on keys to get the coarse/attack dynamics and some kind of joystick to get the fine/decay dynamics.
02:56:51 <catseye> ahhh i wanna see a movie edited like that
02:57:26 <catseye> well, i'm thinking more like if you could hook up a baton as the input device
02:57:47 <Gregor> catseye: AKA a wiimote
02:58:10 <Gregor> catseye: But I don't think that's sufficiently helpful in and of itself, frankly. I really like Tapper's interface.
02:59:07 <catseye> well, i'm not stopping you, i guess
02:59:19 <Gregor> All that's stopping me is priorities :P
02:59:26 <catseye> per earlier (non) agreement, that means nothing stopping me from writing a specializer
03:00:38 <pikhq> Gregor: Okay, so it's Kanntàkutâ, then.
03:00:42 <Gregor> Followed by light drinking, followed by heavy petting, followed by light regrets, followed by heavy coffee, followed by very heavy regrets.
03:01:02 <pikhq> Gregor: I am forcing you to have a shitty name.
03:01:13 <catseye> Gregor: IN LIGHT OF PREV UGLINESS I REQUEST THAT YOU DO NOT USE THAT WORD
03:01:55 * Gregor wonders to which word the pressed one refers ...
03:02:42 <catseye> clog seems a mite broken today
03:03:23 <catseye> Gregor: the word "petting". Not while the horrors of the FURRY-INFESTED OS are still fresh in my mind, you see.
03:03:45 <Gregor> pikhq: It took me an ENORMOUS amount of time to realize that Kanntàkutâ is stupid-Japanese for "conductor"
03:08:45 <pikhq> áìųëō If only my romanisation scheme could produce such a smattering of diacritics normally.
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03:11:21 <pikhq> I shall need to get creative, and encode things nobody could possibly care about.
03:12:34 * pikhq is thinking something like, oh, the Old Japanese vowel system.
03:27:30 <zzo38> I don't think there is a need for Japanese romanisation scheme with strange marks, since if unicode is available, you can just write using hiragana/katakana, anyways.
03:27:56 <catseye> but how else will we reach the satellite?
03:28:42 <catseye> oh, perhaps that's just my shattered outlook on the world talking.
03:29:06 <catseye> anyway, no way i can write a specializer right now. although i can see a couple of ways it could be done.
03:29:33 <catseye> and a couple of ways in which it really cannot be done. because of that ol' undecidability thing.
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03:30:57 <pikhq> zzo38: The point is I ♥ đìäçŕīṫıçŝ.
03:34:28 <catseye> the central problem wrt the 3rd projection is that the easiest way to do the 1st 2 projections is to have a dedicated language suited to interpreters (an easily identifiable command to do the "fetch execute" cycle, for example) and this language is kind of *ill* suited for writing a specializer.
03:34:59 <catseye> so you turn the specializer on itself and it just goes 'whut?'
03:38:18 <catseye> Gregor: HOW COME YOU DON'T WRITE MORE MUSIC LIKE THIS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe1ScoePqVA
03:38:43 <Gregor> catseye: Dude, I WROTE THAT.
03:38:52 <Gregor> Back in my afro days/daze
03:39:41 <pikhq> Gregor: HOW COME YOU DON'T WRITE MORE MUSIC LIKE THIS file:///dev/random
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03:39:58 <Gregor> pikhq: Dude, I WROTE THAT.
03:40:06 <Gregor> Back in my avant garde days/daze
03:43:44 * catseye roots around for the surviving copies of the music he's written
03:44:01 <catseye> I don't suppose you can play MED files
03:45:10 <catseye> which means, I'm gonna have to convert it, which means, euurrr
03:45:21 <catseye> but i have no frickin clue how anymore
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03:47:49 <catseye> ever think about the shannon-fano trees that are encoded in the control neuron pathways going to your fingers HU
03:48:04 <catseye> well they're not shannon-fano trees but
03:48:11 <catseye> they're something close right?
03:50:26 <catseye> and they're somewhere in your CNS, like, you're brain, not the control neurons themselves most likely
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03:53:40 <catseye> calamari: what OS are you running?
03:53:43 <calamari> so I was given that "create groups" feature on facebook
03:54:18 <catseye> calamari: cheers. so am I. I'm going to see if you can listen to my music! (what's left of it)
03:54:29 <catseye> but what's a "create groups" feature?
03:54:54 <calamari> that's where you can automatically add your friends to a group.. for example, GNAA..
03:55:21 <lament> my friends are already in GNAA
03:55:34 <quintopia> gregor: i dunno if it sounds better yet. i did spend a long time coaxing it to be full stereo (bass notes on the left, high treble on the right) like a real piano.
03:56:01 <calamari> anyhow, it's a retarded feature that hopefully will be removed soon
03:56:02 <Gregor> quintopia: Coaxing your soundfont or my midi? My soundfont is like that anyway (so much so that I have to reduce it in post)
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03:56:35 <pikhq> Gregor: Baaah, just get a real piano.
03:56:39 <pikhq> Gregor: (and a pony!)
03:57:00 <Gregor> A good enough soundfont has advantages over a real piano. Also disadvantages.
03:57:43 <pikhq> David Firth is apparently making a feature-length film.
03:58:39 <calamari> I still enjoy my roland scb-55 midi daughterboard
04:02:39 <Gregor> calamari: That's meeeeeeeeeeee
04:03:29 * pikhq needs to do homework...
04:03:46 <quintopia> gregor: i may have to coax your midi too, since midi just doesn't do adsr right when converted to it format
04:03:59 <quintopia> also, it looks like you played this by hand on a keyboard
04:04:13 <Gregor> I won't give you a raw MIDI, it would sound like shit :P
04:04:31 <Gregor> Err, s/raw/from notation only/
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04:04:37 <calamari> Gregor: may I please, I want to hear it on my roland :)
04:05:13 <Gregor> calamari: http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2.mid
04:05:14 <calamari> I assume you didn't just overlay grand piano with a string font
04:05:40 <Gregor> Are we talking about the same thing? :P
04:05:53 <Gregor> You must be talking about Op. 11 string quartet?
04:06:07 <calamari> that was cool, guess that's not this, sorry
04:06:08 <Gregor> Ah, he's talking about op. 13 mov. 2 X-P
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04:06:30 <Gregor> I don't have that in MIDI form, at least not real MIDI form ...
04:06:41 <Gregor> .rg doesn't like to export to MIDI when you have tempo ramping.
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04:07:12 <Gregor> Plus I'm not using a GM soundbank for output, so all the instruments would be wrong.
04:07:25 -!- yiyus has joined.
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04:08:01 <calamari> hmm no midis are playing, guess I'd better troubleshoot that first
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04:08:37 <Gregor> If you're willing to fix the instruments yourself, I'll make a .mid
04:08:53 <Gregor> It won't be notationable.
04:09:43 <calamari> I wouldn't know which ones were supposed to be what and I'd be bugging you lol
04:10:28 <catseye> STEP ONE: sudo apt-get install xmp
04:10:36 <catseye> STEP TWO: wget http://catseye.tc/music/med/anagnoresis.med
04:10:46 <catseye> STEP THREE: xmp anagnoresis.med
04:10:57 <Gregor> calamari: op. 13 is only piano :P
04:11:13 <calamari> which happens to be great on the roland soundcanvas :)
04:11:14 <Gregor> It would be GM even if I didn't specify any programs.
04:12:32 <calamari> catseye: Gregor's song has 5 minutes to go :)
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04:14:26 <catseye> calamari: queue it up! at least meanually. it will be quite the... contrast...
04:15:08 <catseye> I haz teh different style froms Gregor, even whens I te-comperosing der klazzikle-likes.
04:15:16 <calamari> hrm apparently audacious is not cool enough to support meds
04:15:56 <catseye> and this is not my best, but it is good to start
04:16:36 <catseye> ach, such primitive tools i was using
04:16:38 <calamari> sudo apt-get --no-install-recommends install xmp
04:16:55 <catseye> hm, mine doesn't install the recommends by default... I think...
04:17:12 <calamari> cool wonder how I do that, would be nice on my wii
04:18:10 <calamari> should I be hearing something while the dots are going?
04:18:47 <catseye> calamari: xmp shows me a line like: Tempo[05] BPM[21] Pos[18/19] Pat[12/12] Row[16/3F] Chn[03/04]
04:18:50 <calamari> Stored patterns: 4864 ....................... (etc)
04:19:14 <catseye> I see: Stored patterns: 19 ...................
04:19:22 <catseye> then there are more lines and then the line i pasted
04:19:35 <calamari> Module title : -0* "&)3 ���������������#
04:19:52 <catseye> let me see if I uploaded that goodly or not
04:21:26 <catseye> yeah it did not survive the upload it seems. let me try again
04:21:48 <quintopia> gregor: mpt doesn't do ADSR to the extent i would need to coax soundfont to act right. i'd have to go through and put note offs earlier on almost every high note to fix it. so your font is better.
04:22:37 <catseye> weird, it... does not like me
04:24:59 <catseye> calamari: yeah, it was on "auto" and it thought it was text I guess
04:25:06 <catseye> calamari: try d/l'ing same file again
04:26:00 <calamari> Gregor: cool your midi killed noteedit
04:26:31 <calamari> catseye there now it's working
04:26:32 <Gregor> calamari: Presumably it's trying to notate?
04:29:43 <pikhq> I love overkill sometimes.
04:29:54 * pikhq is... Using set builder notation for writing domains.
04:30:11 <coppro> pikhq: I thought you passed high school
04:30:40 <calamari> haven't listened to my mods in a while, need to
04:30:44 <pikhq> coppro: For some stupid reason, this damned calc class is having a few homework problems assigned concerning domains and ranges of N-dimensional functions.
04:30:51 <pikhq> coppro: Fucking retarded, I know.
04:32:05 <catseye> apparently i had this thing where I would write in ABA format, with A in a minor key and very funky, and B in a major key and very happy
04:32:29 <pikhq> So, yeah. I'm using set builder notation because dammit I can.
04:32:33 <catseye> (this was... like 1991-1992... pre-Befunge)
04:34:21 <pikhq> "Pikes Peak Community College".
04:34:32 <pikhq> I'm taking this class there because it's cheap and I'm cheap.
04:39:04 <catseye> I'm not being fair to myself. Several of them go like ABAC ending on a completely different pattern
04:40:47 <catseye> also, I think xmp can play .lha'ed files directly
04:40:53 <catseye> calamari, Gregor: http://catseye.tc/music/med/retrograde.lha
04:41:04 <Gregor> I ... don't know what a .lha is.
04:41:20 <calamari> compressed format from the stone ages
04:41:21 <catseye> It's an ancient archive format.
04:41:30 <Gregor> Is there a command-line equivalent that will also know?
04:41:35 <Gregor> (I assume xmp is X-mp)
04:41:37 <catseye> Gregor: sudo apt-get install xmp
04:41:56 <Gregor> catseye: Cool kids use aptitude
04:41:58 <catseye> xmp is all command line afaict
04:42:09 * calamari gets to try out this lha program
04:42:24 <catseye> if it can't handle lha, it sucks. also lha is easy to get
04:42:28 <Gregor> What is .tc anyway ...
04:42:38 <catseye> and I can point you to an unlha'ed version
04:42:41 <calamari> retrograde- Melted : oooooooooo
04:42:57 <Gregor> Yeah, xmp can't handle lha :P
04:43:10 <catseye> .tc is like, some island in somewhere ocean-like who charges five times as much per year for the privledge of using their TLD
04:43:43 <Gregor> And is at a TLD people recognize :P
04:43:50 <catseye> Gregor: it's what i had at my disposal. Well, that and DMCS
04:44:05 <catseye> also, re ending, it was meant to be repeatable
04:44:30 <catseye> i wonder why my xmp seems to be happy as shit processing an .lha file
04:44:39 <calamari> this would be good for like a side scrolling platformer
04:44:41 <Gregor> This is a style of music I can't write. Or even consider writing. Or even consider considering.
04:44:51 <catseye> calamari: I've had other people tell me that multiple times...
04:45:08 <catseye> I write video game music, apparently.
04:45:57 <catseye> .tc = "Turks and Calcos islands"
04:46:12 <catseye> I don't even know where that is or what kind of government I am supporting with my domain name $$$.
04:46:54 <catseye> Gregor: it's not FREE free
04:47:04 <coppro> catseye: A corrupt government that's currently suspended by the UK parliament for good reason
04:47:08 <Gregor> Oh, hahah, that "available" was a clarification :P
04:47:21 <calamari> I'm using mydomains.com, the cheesiest registrar ever, but they've actually been good to me
04:47:35 <coppro> (but, since they're being administered by the UK, one would hope the next government is not as corrupt)
04:48:02 <coppro> the actual nation is a handful of islands in the Carribean with a massive wealth gap typical of Carribean nations
04:48:10 <quintopia> Game will have narrative: "Hopefully there'll be some kind of narrative into the game. Like some kind of overarching goal that you could reach. But the idea is to have it really difficult, so it would be like NetHack, you don't win the game, you just hear about the people win the game." (39:10)
04:48:30 <calamari> currently kidsquid.com is a steaming pile of shit tho.. shouldn't have gone with zymic hosting
04:48:32 <quintopia> i might just buy minecraft when it is finished and i have the computer to run it
04:49:30 <Gregor> calamari: IT IS THE NINETIES
04:49:36 <Gregor> calamari: AND THERE IS TIME FOR KLAX
04:50:00 <calamari> especially when you're getting sued for your tetris game
04:51:16 <Gregor> I was wondering if anybody would ever get that reference :P
04:51:35 <Gregor> Be ashamed that you did ;)
04:51:35 <catseye> Gregor: i totally got it because I AM OLD
04:51:36 <calamari> yeah I actually own a license to the klax rom
04:52:21 <calamari> which is long defunct of course
04:52:53 <calamari> I am also sad to say that my 5200 basic compiler was used to bring to life a horrible port of to the atari 5200
04:53:38 <catseye> calamari: if you can stand more: this is slightly different style but has been explicitly called "this should be in a platformer!": http://catseye.tc/music/med/you_drive_me_wild.med
04:53:57 <catseye> also, it features something I can only describe as, "duelling melodies"
04:54:15 <catseye> and in an amiga tracker that means, one in L, the other in R
04:54:42 <catseye> also, some really messed up chords (like... C+E+F, whatever that is)
04:54:57 <catseye> yet, it works, or at least fails to fail badle
04:56:11 <Gregor> catseye: I disagree with the notion that this should be in platformer.
04:56:23 <Gregor> catseye: This should be in NES porn.
04:56:29 <calamari> my only musical talent is limited to badly playing my harmonica, and since I won't be getting a millionizer 2000 anytime soon, you won't have to hear it
04:56:47 <calamari> yeah this isn't platformer, sorry
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04:57:02 <catseye> well, the critic *was* crazy.
04:57:07 <pikhq> My musical talent consists of being out of practice.
04:57:22 <pikhq> Except for being able to learn music quickly. Still got that.
04:57:38 <catseye> whoever he was. i forget now. but these were distributed with my university email address (umpresse@umanitoba.ca) and I got teh one email response.
04:57:59 <zzo38> Do you know of a NES code to divide by three?
04:58:04 <calamari> beatles rock band on drums is fun.. I suck horribly, although I was starting to be able to play some songs in medium
04:58:14 <catseye> zzo38: 6502.org should have something!
04:58:16 <coppro> I'm good at knowing which part of a song comes next
04:59:05 <catseye> coppro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5Cnc7wm-dg
05:00:19 <pikhq> calamari: That's quite some lack of talent. :P
05:00:51 <coppro> no, this is the best lack of talent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOUsbtUrXHk
05:01:14 <coppro> (except for the poor timpani player)
05:03:58 <zzo38> I found general multiply/divide code, but I only need to divide a sixteen bit number by a constant. Divide by 2 is easy, I already have that code. But now I need to make it divide by 3, also (using the conditional compile)
05:05:18 <calamari> does the answer have to be exactly right?
05:05:22 <pikhq> The US is now number 49 on life expectancy.
05:05:39 <pikhq> WE'RE FOURTY-NINE! WE'RE FOURTY-NINE!
05:06:09 <Gregor> pikhq: I'll bet if you listed each state, several of them would be in the top 10.
05:06:30 <calamari> zzo38: for example 85/256 = 0.332...
05:06:55 <coppro> Gregor: and pennsylvania would be at the bottom?
05:07:40 <zzo38> calamari: Dividing by 2 or by 256 is easy. I only need an integer result, anyways.
05:08:01 <zzo38> But I need divide by 3. I already have the code to divide by 2.
05:08:32 <calamari> zzo38: yeah I'm saying to divide by 3, multiply by 85
05:08:44 <pikhq> Gregor: http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/sep2006/db20060913_099763.htm
05:09:25 <Gregor> pikhq: That neither confirms nor denies my claim.
05:09:41 <pikhq> Gregor: I'm trying to find the WHO list.
05:10:04 <calamari> but the answer won't be 100% correct
05:11:05 <zzo38> I need to divide number as large as 0x0800 so it won't fit in 16-bits multiplying by 85
05:11:21 <pikhq> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy&oldid=389988170 Well, here's one that appears to be have a different ranking.
05:11:22 <calamari> weird what am I doing wrong, it's not working anyhow
05:11:28 <pikhq> (38 instead of 49.)
05:12:28 <zzo38> And you can be right about not perfectly correct. It is off by 2
05:12:39 <Gregor> calamari: Swaziland is in the middle ages. Huzzah!
05:14:37 <pikhq> It seems that we've some states with absolutely appaling life expectancies.
05:14:46 <pikhq> I mean, DC. 72? Seriously? WTF.
05:15:10 <pikhq> If DC were a nation it'd just barely be in the top 100.
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05:15:50 <pikhq> catseye: Yes, yes, I know, but it's effectively a very small one. ... With no representation.
05:15:51 <catseye> it's like this non-represented region
05:16:09 <catseye> the sense this is making! oh!
05:16:16 <coppro> pikhq: Puerto Rico has a higher life expectancy than the US average
05:16:24 <pikhq> Yup. Can't vote for President *if you'd be his neighbor*.
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05:19:03 <catseye> Vorpal will love this one: http://catseye.tc/music/med/after_the_fact.med
05:19:20 <catseye> Actually I'm pretty sure he won't like any of them.
05:19:26 <catseye> Because of the trackerness.
05:21:18 <catseye> But this one has been relegated to, not a platformer, but the soundtrack of a cop/spy movie of some sort.
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05:26:42 <catseye> http://catseye.tc/music/med/autumn_kiss.med
05:27:03 <catseye> http://catseye.tc/music/med/red_quarks.med
05:27:19 <catseye> I think those are the 2 remaining ones
05:27:34 <catseye> actually, there is another one, but it's so not as good as I remember
05:27:50 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: xmp, if it can't
05:28:11 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: I know some modplayers don't do the transpose, which makes at least one of my meds fail superbadways
05:29:14 <GreaseMonkey> schismtracker does a better job with the speed
05:29:20 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: one of my meds uses a sample that is not as C - it's at E - so I used "track transpose -4" or something to adjust it -- but some players don't implement that. result: SHIT
05:29:39 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: uh yeah, autumn kiss is supposed to be ballad-ish
05:30:19 <GreaseMonkey> ok what the hell why does schism load it with an !xx command instead of just SETTING THE DAMN VOLUME COLUMN LIKE THE MOD LOADER DOES
05:31:19 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: yes. they're all 4-channel
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05:35:20 <catseye> am putting together an index page for ease of downloading
05:40:37 <zzo38> The reason for dividing by three is so that I can add a #TRITAVE command into PPMCK.
05:41:02 -!- flippo has changed nick to frivol.
05:41:40 <zzo38> I am already working on making the #CUSTOM-TUNING command work, so that you can use just intonation or any other scale that has up to sixteen notes
05:43:14 <catseye> GreaseMonkey: http://catseye.tc/music/med/
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05:48:06 <catseye> i have only a vague idea of what i mean by "sci-fi funk"
05:49:43 <pikhq> Absurdly easy yet tedious homework, fin.
05:50:21 <pikhq> (yes, I get that freaking continuity & limits work in 3 dimensions. I don't need to spend 1.5 hours demonstrating this, kthx)
05:55:07 <catseye> Gregor: you should hear my classical shit sometime. I've written a string quartet, and a strings and woodwinds septet, and a couple of other fairly weird things. You'd hate them. Fortunately for you, they're mostly lost.
05:55:38 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op11/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet.ogg I too have written a string quartet.'
05:56:01 <catseye> Was listening to it earlyer.
05:57:03 <coppro> hmm... curse you, this last question on this math assignment
05:59:46 <pikhq> Gregor: You seem to suffer from the curse of being skilled at multiple things. How do you deal with time allocation for it?
05:59:59 * pikhq looks at Gregor's progress on various things
06:00:05 <pikhq> Ah, right. Like mere mortals.
06:04:57 <catseye> calamari: The "Spy Hunter" theme is "Peter Gunn", iirc
06:05:26 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcflCzZlLcQ
06:06:38 <catseye> and yes, "After the Fact" is... inspired a bit by that :)
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06:09:00 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2.pdf
06:09:01 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWGeRgFa-hI
06:09:10 <Gregor> For awesome pain, read page five of http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2.pdf !
06:10:58 <Gregor> ... that is totally words.
06:11:02 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faJE92phKzI
06:12:10 <catseye> i'm surprised lilypond can do that
06:13:42 <catseye> firefox + Gregor's oggs = bad news
06:14:32 <catseye> it used to give me a nice little slider plus play and pause buttons
06:14:41 <catseye> now, it does a visualization thing in the window
06:14:44 <Gregor> Yeah, that's built into Firefox.
06:14:56 <Gregor> Also built into Firefox :P
06:18:17 <Gregor> Worse yet, I could easily get pie (probably even pumpkin pie) in spite of the fact that it's 1:20AM.
06:19:08 <catseye> The status bar says "Stopped", yet the visualization proceeds, choppily.
06:19:37 <catseye> The US: 24-hour triviallest-desire-fullfilment.
06:23:47 <catseye> Satie -> Gerschwin -> Tschiakovsky (slightly tipsy) -> Satie -> ...
06:24:40 <Gregor> I take that as a rave review :P
06:24:56 <Gregor> Have you listened to movement 1?
06:25:26 <catseye> I dunno, this part is someone
06:25:44 <Gregor> Oh, you're actually following along.
06:26:42 <Gregor> It's some ridiculous craziness, it must be Rachmaninoff.
06:27:42 <Gregor> Satie -> Gerschwin -> Tschiakovsky (slightly tipsy) -> Satie -> Chopin (?) -> Satie (?) -> Mystery composer -> Rachmanninov
06:28:04 <catseye> Ending somewhat ... err... wow
06:28:09 <catseye> I don't know, but nice, anyway.
06:28:38 <Gregor> Satie -> Gerschwin -> Tschiakovsky (slightly tipsy) -> Satie -> Chopin (?) -> Satie (?) -> Mystery composer -> Rachmanninov -> ...??? -> PROFIT
06:31:29 <catseye> Gregor: No surprise, we're about a thousand miles apart, musically. I cannot handle the piano for at all or ever. I switched to computer science from music because they wanted me to be able to play the piano. Then I dropped out of CS too, but that's another story.
06:32:35 <catseye> I had a friend who was a composer, and a pianist. He liked Beethoven, and Bartok, a lot.
06:32:41 <Gregor> What did you play? I've heard that complaint before btw (I wanted to do music but I didn't know how to play the piano, in spite of the fact that that's not my instrument)
06:33:09 <calamari> catseye: btw, I enjoyed the med's, thanks
06:33:13 <catseye> I played tuba. And trombone, and euphonium/baritone, but I preferred tuba. And for composition, I preferred orchestra.
06:33:34 <catseye> calamari: thanks for saying so :)
06:33:36 <Gregor> I would prefer to compose for orchestra if I had one lying around :P
06:33:48 <Gregor> (Which is why I want to write a conductor program)
06:33:49 <catseye> Gregor: yeah, kind of an expensive instrument to compose for.
06:34:20 <catseye> I almost got a concert band to play my stuff once... ach, but no.
06:34:44 <Gregor> How'd you (almost) accomplish that?
06:35:32 <catseye> Lots of hand-copying individual parts and surreptitiously handing them out and (unsuccessfully) appealing to the conductor to give me some time with the band before practice.
06:35:58 <calamari> I've wondered sometimes.. like John Williams will write some music, and then it'll say orchestrated by xyz. how much of what I'm hearing is actually by xyz and Williams just had a catchy melody line and that's it?
06:36:15 <quintopia> what is the language in which one can write the smallest simplest piece of code that does text-based animation?
06:36:48 <quintopia> i mean, requires the least code to do arbitrary like screen buffer updates and stuff
06:38:09 <quintopia> I already know the real answer. it's TI-89 BASIC. But, I don't have a functioning TI-89. And the screen would be too small to do what i want anyway.
06:38:43 <Gregor> How about OS-level C with a memory-mapped VGA text buffer.
06:38:51 <Gregor> That's just putting stuff in a char * buffer.
06:39:05 <catseye> My vote is Full Moon Fever, but I'm sorely biased.
06:40:14 <quintopia> small is not as important as simple and quick
06:40:31 <catseye> .... or something like that
06:41:24 <catseye> GO 1 2 CLREOL CENTRE "Enter... the Stupid Guard." 2
06:41:42 <Gregor> quintopia: I don't rightly know, but I remember writing a "kernel" once and handling the screen that way ... VGA is memory-mapped to a standard location, so then it's just myscreen[y*160+x*2] = '@'
06:42:19 <quintopia> that'd be nice, but i don't know the first thing about doing that
06:42:35 <quintopia> also, what did you use to write this score?
06:42:39 <zzo38> I suppose, invent one language for text animation small simple codes
06:42:54 <Gregor> quintopia: Rosegarden to lilypond, then fixes over that lilypond.
06:43:10 <catseye> the second byte of each pair the fg/bg colour attributes, iirc (incl. blink, where that's supported)
06:44:06 <Gregor> I also wrote a program for doing ASCII-art animations once, but it could only handle input in the form of full-screen frames and timing information.
06:45:33 <catseye> Gregor: So, um. Since I don't think I've heard you say. What composers do you like?
06:46:04 <quintopia> FMF doesn't look so bad, but apparently they only way to use it is in the illgol compiler binary for windows?
06:46:20 <Gregor> catseye: I have an unhealthy relationship with Russian romanticism. Borodin is my favorite composer, with Balakirev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky etc as close seconds.
06:46:29 <catseye> quintopia: the only surviving way, yes. unless i can can salvage my amiga disks someday.
06:46:43 <catseye> Gregor: you don't say. interesting.
06:46:53 <Gregor> catseye: As a pianist I'm required to like Chopin and Liszt. And lesse ...
06:47:02 <Gregor> Saint-Saens, Sibelius ...
06:47:15 <lament> what did borodin even write
06:47:16 <Gregor> Well, Beethoven, but that's too easy :P
06:47:34 <Gregor> lament: Borodin's Nocturne from String Quartet #2 is the single greatest piece of music ever written.
06:47:52 <Gregor> lament: The works from Prince Igor are quite good as well.
06:49:22 <Gregor> lament: Ohhh, and I almost forgot about On the Steppes of Central Asia
06:50:29 <catseye> Gregor: as a non-pianist I am under no obligation to like Chopin, but I do. But my #1 favourite is Prokofiev.
06:50:50 <Gregor> Argh, I can't believe I forgot to mention Prokofiev *smacks self*
06:52:35 <catseye> I was painting a fence on day, and had a radio on, tuned into CBC's "Disc Drive", and Juergen Goeth decided to play the march from "Love for Three Oranges" and I was hooked.
06:53:27 <lament> why are composers all russian
06:54:00 <lament> quintopia: shostakovich wrote the *real* greatest piece of music ever
06:54:48 <calamari> this 80's midi card is holding up pretty well against your fancy recording
06:54:53 <Gregor> lament: During the Romanticism era, Mussorgsky mixed Romanticism with Russian folk music and produced brilliance. He then convinced five other people to produce such brilliance, and started a trend of Russian music.
06:55:24 <Gregor> lament: Before Romanticism, there was no good Russian music :P
06:55:34 <Gregor> (^^^ totally not a generalization)
06:56:41 <coppro> grammar question: should adverbs be hyphenated (e.g. the nearly clean person vs. the nearly-clean person)
06:56:51 <catseye> The other time that Disc Drive changed my (musical) life was when J.G. decided to play "Pertpetuum Mobile" by the Penguin Cafe Orchestra.
06:57:14 <Gregor> coppro: *concurs with catseye*
06:57:21 <coppro> so everyone else just sucks at English?
06:57:45 <Gregor> coppro: More precisely, by the way, adjective phrases should be hyphenated.
06:57:47 <calamari> everyone sucks at English.. how about that? :)
06:58:03 * coppro files unhyphenated adjective phrases with the International Pet Peeve Bureau
06:58:39 <Gregor> However, I've said it once and I'll say it again: The correct way to do it is however everybody does it.
06:58:54 <Gregor> If nobody hyphenates their adjective phrases, then it is no longer standard to hyphenate adjective phrases.
06:59:18 <catseye> The person was nearly clean. The nearly0clean person was far away.
07:03:48 <catseye> Also Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Vivaldi, Satie. Lots of others did good stuff too, but those guys stand out.
07:05:27 <catseye> Beethoven is so weird. It's almost like he wasn't a real person. Like Shakespeare, you know? :)
07:06:20 <coppro> yes, Wikipedia agrees with me!
07:06:53 <coppro> I now have a pet peeve of people not hyphenating compound adjectives when using them attributively.
07:07:39 <coppro> *attributively before the noun
07:16:23 * quintopia high-fives the proselytizing descriptivist
07:18:13 <lament> any sort of description must be descriptive
07:19:24 <catseye> say you like what way is all to put stress more onz interpeting mine only
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07:21:39 <catseye> more wrong you "wrong" against edge the push is always flex more NO as while it stands
07:23:35 <quintopia> do lesions to wernicke's area result in inability to type comprehensibly too?
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07:58:04 <quintopia> catseye: write me an alpaca line that does "if A has a B west of it then with 9/10 probability it becomes C and with 1/10 probability it becomes D"
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09:54:30 <antivigilante> will aliens scorch the earth before the X1000 arrives?
09:55:05 <oerjan> for now they seem to be satisfying with removing from my brain all knowledge of what X1000 is.
09:55:49 <oerjan> WHAT THE HECK IS HAPPENGIN TO MY GRAMMAR AND SPELLING LATELY?
09:55:59 <oerjan> (yeah i left that one in on purpose)
09:56:37 <oerjan> actually the X would tend to indicate it is made _by_ aliens.
09:56:45 <antivigilante> your brain is mutiny against you using the english language
09:57:39 <oerjan> counterevidence: it was damn hard to get that last norwegian word right
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10:54:43 <oerjan> holy shit http://www.skytopia.com/project/illusion/didgrow.html
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10:58:48 <Ilari> Heh... I'm thinking what's the worst stuff in commonly sold as food that comes from animal products... And the same for plant products... Let's just say the animal stuffs list is much shorter and much more mild...
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11:04:14 <fizzie> There was one of those "makes your eyesight all screwy" optical illusions shown in the "wild demo" (anything realtime-graphicsy goes) category at Assembly this year; the name was "casual vortex" and the listed 'platform' was "visual cortex".
11:05:21 <tombom> what language was it written in
11:05:55 <fizzie> I don't think that was mentioned anywhere.
11:06:11 <fizzie> This was re "<oerjan> holy shit http://www.skytopia.com/project/illusion/didgrow.html" which you probably didn't see.
11:07:20 <Ilari> I can offhand recall only one bad animal-based food product. Whereas similar list for plants has at least 8, probably all worse than the one entry for animal products...
11:08:04 <fizzie> It seems to have been written in vvvv, in fact.
11:08:34 <tombom> and here i was hoping for another silly answer
11:08:51 <tombom> vvvv looks really interesting actually
11:09:51 <oerjan> ye olde botulinum sausage
11:11:34 <Ilari> That's bacterium toxin... And should not be present in commonly sold food.
11:12:22 <Ilari> And BTW, that 8 entry list does not include alcohol...
11:15:06 <Ilari> I actually meant "worst" as "most unhealthy", not "most disgusting looking".
11:15:23 <oerjan> well in that case we shouldn't forget fugu
11:16:05 <oerjan> but i guess it may be hard to find a food product that is unhealthy when _properly_ prepared
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12:46:27 <cheater> the problem is, quite often proper preparation includes the trash can
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14:11:04 <ais523> is that a misspelling of "divers"?
14:11:39 <elliott> "Schemes of Divers Origin" would be a good name for an album or something, though.
14:11:55 <ais523> "Divers" is an old-fashioned spelling of "Diverse"
14:12:01 <ais523> which you still come across very occasionally
14:12:08 <ais523> that's what I was referencing
14:12:52 <elliott> i like the interpretation as people-who-dive even better, though :)
14:13:04 <elliott> "diuers" would be as archaically valid, right?
14:14:04 <elliott> I wonder why Ubuntu doesn't do kexec-reboots for kernel upgrades.
14:15:05 <pikhq> elliott: Perfectly valid. "v" goes at the beginning of words. :)
14:15:17 <ais523> hmm, if you have to shut down almost all the way, why not hard reboot?
14:15:25 <ais523> the difference is what, a few seconds?
14:15:48 <elliott> which, if it displays a menu, which is very likely if Windows is installed,
14:16:03 <elliott> (yes, you can skip it, but there's also no reason at all not to just use kexec)
14:16:03 <ais523> you probably /want/ to go via the bootloader if you just upgraded the kernel
14:16:10 <elliott> this is what kexec is designed for
14:16:22 <ais523> because bootloader/kernel compat issues are one of the things you want to be able to catch
14:16:41 <elliott> err, i have never seen such an issue (and besides, it's not like you won't find out next boot)
14:16:49 <ais523> (also, so if the new kernel doesn't work, the bootloader knows it doesn't)
14:16:53 <elliott> linux is generally pretty good at not breaking multiboot...
14:16:59 <elliott> ais523: bootloaders don't store that
14:17:05 <ais523> the Windows bootloader does
14:17:08 <elliott> not even last-good-boot works like that
14:17:12 <elliott> ais523: the Windows bootloader can't boot linux
14:17:23 <ais523> yep, but I mean it would be a plausible feature to add
14:17:54 <elliott> it stores the last kernel that booted, rather than ... what? why would you even store that it doesn't boot?
14:18:15 <ais523> so that you can automatically go to last-good rather than most-recent if most-recent doesn't work
14:18:52 <ais523> which saves time in the morning if you're in the habit of rebooting or shutting down overnight (for stability reasons with Windows, or energy saving reasons with any OS)
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14:26:31 <ais523> what were you doing there?
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14:28:30 <cpressey> ais523: it was the nineties, and there was time for it, along with klax
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14:29:52 <quintopia> is it the nineties, where there's still time to witness hair on top of steve ballmer's head?
14:30:26 <quintopia> 02:57 < quintopia> catseye: write me an alpaca line that does "if A has a B west of it then with 9/10 probability it becomes C and with 1/10 probability it becomes D"
14:31:08 <cpressey> quintopia: i refer you to the discussion about dividing by 3 on a NES
14:31:32 * ais523 reads the presentation linked from reddit about how to recover from "chmod -x chmod"
14:31:41 <ais523> there's a whole bunch of solutions from there, some of which are ridiculous
14:31:52 <cheater> cpressey: what about dividing by 3 on a nes?
14:32:11 <ais523> (someone suggested forcing the directory entry for /bin into cache, then running sed on the computer's memory)
14:32:25 <ais523> cheater: not really, but doing it efficiently is nontrivial
14:33:09 <cpressey> cheater: i believe the suggested trick was to multiply by 85 then divide by 256 to get a factor of 0.334
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14:33:48 <ais523> cpressey: that trick doesn't work with every number IIRC; I'm not sure if it works for 3, and in which range
14:34:32 <cpressey> and alpaca only does power-of-2 probabilities(?) so you'd have to do something similar to approximate 10%
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14:36:27 <cpressey> ais523: indeed, it does not work for 3.
14:36:30 <cheater> doesn't 0.9 have a nice expansion in binary?
14:36:50 <ais523> cheater: not an exact finite expansion, no
14:37:07 <ais523> there's an antifactor of 5 in there
14:37:20 <elliott> ais523: link me the presentation?
14:37:27 <quintopia> cpressey: i thought i remembered as much, but i couldn't find a english spec of alpaca
14:37:45 <quintopia> cpressey: same question but with 1/8 and 7/8
14:37:47 <ais523> http://www.slideshare.net/cog/chmod-x-chmod
14:37:50 <cpressey> quintopia: did you find one in some other language?
14:37:52 <ais523> annoyingly, in Flash for no reason at all
14:37:57 <ais523> apart from making it hard to copy
14:38:14 <quintopia> cpressey: i couldn't find one in any spoken language actually
14:38:31 <ais523> (my reaction was "use another program that does the same thing", I'd probably have come up with busybox chmod with a bit of thought)
14:38:48 <ais523> elliott: it's a link to a login page
14:38:57 <elliott> ais523: SHEESH JUST USE YOUR FACEBOOK ACCOUNT
14:39:03 <ais523> that solution was already there
14:39:17 <cpressey> ais523: my reaction was to rebuild chmod from source -- but that's bsd thinking i suppose
14:39:29 <ais523> although Perl or Python are best for that, because they're most likely to be installed
14:39:43 <ais523> cpressey: if you had the source handy, that would work fine
14:39:52 <elliott> see usernames and passwords
14:39:57 <ais523> I'm at work, I don't want to have to explain that
14:40:05 <ais523> (I am aware of bugmenot.com, though)
14:40:07 <elliott> err? bugmenot is perfectly reputable
14:40:14 <cpressey> ais523: on freebsd, you almost always do (culturally speaking anyway)
14:40:23 <ais523> yep, but going to sites with usernames/passwords you don't own isn't
14:40:33 <ais523> and using bugmenot is quite a giveaway that you're planning that
14:41:13 <ais523> (it's actually the IT staff at the department I was in a couple of years ago that introduced me to bugmenot...)
14:41:20 <elliott> ais523: heh, I like the idea of using the c compiler to get an executable
14:41:24 <elliott> and then catting /bin/chmod to it
14:41:56 <elliott> ais523: but what if you didn't have cc? I'd replace some irrelevant binary with chmod instead
14:42:07 <ais523> you can just copy an existing executable, and cat /bin/chmod to that
14:42:17 <elliott> what if you don't have cp?!?!?!?!
14:42:22 <ais523> (more interesting question: how do you recover from a chmod -R -x /)
14:42:54 <elliott> using tar to do it, genius
14:42:57 <ais523> in the reddit comments, someone said they'd done that by copying the permissions over from another box using rsync or something
14:43:12 <ais523> one method not mentioned there: copy chmod to a FAT system, then back again
14:43:29 <ais523> all files are executable when, say, a USB stick is mounted with default options
14:43:34 <elliott> [[alias chmod='/lib/ld-2.11.1.so ./chmod']]
14:43:42 <cpressey> elliott: recover from chmod -R -x by booting off something else and copying stuff over
14:43:52 <ais523> (I use the same method to clear the "downloaded from the Internet" flag in Windows)
14:44:08 <elliott> actually, isn't /lib/ld* a bit of a security hole?
14:44:11 <elliott> it can bypass +x permissions
14:44:33 <ais523> you can bypass them anyway by copying the executable so you own the copy, then chmodding the copy
14:44:50 <ais523> (I assume it doesn't work if it has both -x and -r permissions)
14:45:26 <ais523> -x is only really for a) protecting suid files against being run by the wrong people; b) preventing programs being run by mistake
14:45:31 <cpressey> this is a good argument for it
14:45:32 <elliott> cpressey: please tell me that's sarcasm
14:45:40 <cpressey> elliott: this is a good argument for it
14:45:46 <ais523> I think syscall should be a sh builtin
14:45:48 <elliott> no, shell builtins in general are stupid
14:45:53 <ais523> no need to build in all the actual syscalls one by one!
14:46:01 <elliott> the most i'll accept beyond what actually has to be done in sh is echo
14:46:09 <fizzie> For the original program, my instinct would've been perl -e 'chmod 0755, "chmod";'
14:46:13 <ais523> then, you can impliment the other things you need as a library
14:46:20 <elliott> fizzie: that's one of their exact solutions, verbatim
14:46:24 <elliott> cpressey: well, ok, test too
14:46:35 <fizzie> Oh. Well, "Flash Player 9 (or above) is needed to view presentations."
14:46:43 <cheater> i think the first answer would be
14:46:50 <cheater> "what data center has no access to the internet?"
14:46:53 <elliott> fizzie: applejacks for user and pass
14:47:42 <elliott> cpressey: particularly abhorrent is kill being a builtin
14:48:07 <cpressey> elliott: i'm not a fan of builtins btw, it was just this case that occurred to me.
14:48:22 <cpressey> i don't see why kill should ever be
14:48:24 <ais523> oh, could "kill %1", etc., be easily implemented via an external executable?
14:48:28 <ais523> that might be the reason
14:48:35 <cpressey> except maybe some crazy arhument about "the shell is a job control thing"
14:48:37 <elliott> ais523: well, no, but %x should just expand to a string
14:48:48 <quintopia> chmod -rx chmod and the NIC has been stolen. fix it.
14:49:18 <ais523> one of the solutions on the slide there could work (reinstall coreutils from the package manager cache)
14:49:31 <ais523> failing that, reimplementing chmod isn't massively difficult
14:49:52 <ais523> well, "rm -f /bin/chmod" is the next step up, I suppose
14:50:41 <cpressey> people never understand my humor
14:51:09 <quintopia> well i could have responded "Package not found: chmod"
14:51:29 <quintopia> speaking of humor, you never answered my second question
14:51:47 <elliott> someone did "chmod -x chmod" and deleted all other files on the system WHAT NOW
14:52:18 <elliott> ais523: Lowest Common Denominatorfs
14:52:29 <ais523> if it's FAT, I'd go and get a floppy disk running DOS and try to reconstruct the first letter of every file on the filesystem from memory
14:52:38 <cpressey> oh yeah, NOW you are wishing you had some frickin builtins
14:52:50 <elliott> the monitor is on the wall
14:52:53 <elliott> the keyboard buttons are on thee things in haskell
17:58:25 <cpressey> foldr1 should totally be called 'join' or something
17:58:41 <Vorpal> cpressey, why join? join sounds like it would be similar to zip to me
17:58:50 <cpressey> i dunno. join is not the best name
17:59:31 <cpressey> no, i'm thinking of that other function
17:59:40 <cpressey> the one you can do sum with by passing it '+'
18:00:18 <elliott> foldl/foldl'/foldl1/foldr all sum when passed (+)
18:00:19 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm? sum (+) ?
18:00:24 <Vorpal> that sounds a bit weird
18:00:24 <elliott> although foldl' (+) 0 is probably the one you want
18:00:36 <elliott> cpressey: IT'S TOTALLY THE BEST COMPUTER OF ITS TIME
18:00:53 <elliott> cpressey: OR WHAT ABOUT: ATARI ST
18:01:12 <Vorpal> elliott, whatever Cray was doing at that point
18:01:25 <elliott> cpressey: that Vorpal, ain't he an idiot?
18:01:33 <Vorpal> or hm, probably lisp machines
18:01:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, ah well, indeed
18:06:13 <cpressey> damn you lambdabot for being better than egobot at this and for leaving us
18:06:19 <Vorpal> cpressey, I think it is ghc, not ghci
18:06:34 <cpressey> Vorpal: I've SEEN it do types before, i swear
18:07:06 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
18:07:55 <EgoBot> foldl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
18:08:04 <cpressey> it must not like the ' somehow
18:09:17 <cpressey> i wonder what i was thinking, then
18:09:25 <oerjan> cpressey: :t foldl' didn't work because foldl' is not in the Prelude
18:09:37 <oerjan> !haskell :t Data.List.foldl'
18:09:45 <EgoBot> Data.List.foldl' :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
18:11:02 <oerjan> Vorpal: !haskell is _both_ ghci and ghc. it tries the second if the first one errors out.
18:11:49 <Vorpal> why didn't it give an error if it didn't work?
18:12:14 <oerjan> errors are sent via DCC, usually.
18:12:32 <oerjan> why it doesn't pass even one line i don't know
18:13:06 <oerjan> i vaguely recall :t does that, no idea why
18:13:26 <Vorpal> <interactive>:1:0: Not in scope: `foldl''
18:13:57 <oerjan> yes. however that's from ghci and if it errors out it passes to ghc.
18:14:17 <oerjan> you never get ghci errors with !haskell
18:16:22 <oerjan> !haskell {- -} :t foldl'
18:16:28 <elliott> wait, no, me menu != messaging menu
18:16:59 <elliott> !sh ghci -e ":t foldl'" 2>&1 | tr -d '\n'
18:17:04 <EgoBot> <interactive>:1:0: Not in scope: `foldl''
18:17:57 <oerjan> incidentally !haskell {- -} :t foldl' gave a parse error in DCC
18:19:20 <oerjan> um because it's neither correct ghci (the : must start the line) nor ghc (: cannot start a declaration)
18:20:03 <oerjan> still no idea why :t foldl' alone gives no error message
18:20:53 <oerjan> unless... maybe ghci somehow doesn't give an error back to the shell for it
18:20:54 <cpressey> yes, it's the fold*1 functions that should be called 'join'. duh
18:21:12 <oerjan> cpressey: join is already taken for a monadic function, though
18:22:21 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is wrong with foldrfromlist or such?
18:22:28 <Vorpal> not every name has to be short
18:22:54 <oerjan> tell that to the haskell committee
18:23:10 <cpressey> wait why am i asking you when there is an internet here
18:23:11 <oerjan> cpressey: um what would that do?
18:23:22 <oerjan> not by that name anyway
18:23:22 <cpressey> oerjan: well, i wrote one for some reason
18:23:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, combine takeWhile and map maybe?
18:23:50 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm asking cpressey
18:23:51 <elliott> oerjan: it puts a newline before
18:23:58 <cpressey> why oh why does pastie.org not just list all the possible highlightings in its dropdown
18:24:13 <elliott> cpressey: err, doesn't it?
18:24:30 <cpressey> elliott: http://pastie.org/1216028 please ignore the fact that 'mapRest' is useless
18:24:37 <cpressey> elliott: and haskell is a more
18:24:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, I was just suggesting the obvious interpretation!
18:24:59 <elliott> cpressey: i don't see how map applies there
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18:25:29 <cpressey> also laugh at the accumulator style in haskell
18:26:00 <cpressey> i meant to direct that pastie at oerjan
18:26:07 <cpressey> oerjan: http://pastie.org/1216028 please ignore the fact that 'mapRest' is useless
18:28:17 <cpressey> wait what the hell did i write here??
18:29:10 <cpressey> it looks like it transforms only one element of a list, if that
18:29:26 <Vorpal> yes, didn't you mean that?
18:29:27 <oerjan> cpressey: yeah that accumulator doesn't work well with laziness
18:29:53 <cpressey> Vorpal: i don't *think* i did... but then, my code seemed to work. this was written to make another function simpler
18:29:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, the problem is, cpressey is too lazy to fix it
18:30:29 <Vorpal> (no offence meant, it was just a bad joke I had to make)
18:30:49 <cpressey> that is how i spell 'lunch'. i defend my idiolexicality.
18:30:52 <oerjan> cpressey: what's doctests?
18:31:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, I would guess it means verifying that the code and documentation matches each other. That would be nice but very very unrealistic too
18:31:46 <Vorpal> at least for the general case
18:32:06 <oerjan> Vorpal: you know i'm tempted to make the same request of you that elliott did
18:33:18 <oerjan> STOP GUESSING ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WHEN YOU WEREN'T THE ONE ASKED
18:34:00 <Vorpal> ohh, you mean we should play jeopardy instead?
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18:46:28 <cpressey> oerjan: a doctest (from python) is a repl transcript embedded in a comment, basically
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18:47:10 <elliott> running kexec before shutting the system down is fun
18:47:10 <cpressey> "if i were to try to use this function from the interactive prompt, how would it behave? demonstrate."
18:47:22 <elliott> cpressey: have you got logs since i last quit?
18:47:27 <elliott> and, well, since the quit before that too
18:47:54 <cpressey> elliott: STOP MAKING POWERSHELL SCROLL and yes
18:48:42 <cpressey> http://pastie.org/private/sjf9pwcjh9mukwdwmpgeg
18:48:48 <oerjan> cpressey: well nothing preventing you from writing such comments, then
18:49:17 <cpressey> oerjan: yes, but the magic is in having them executed and little dots go by and the message ALL TESTS PASSED!
18:49:32 <elliott> 12:32 < oerjan> STOP GUESSING ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WHEN YOU WEREN'T THE ONE ASKED
18:49:49 <elliott> i do it occasionally though
18:50:07 <oerjan> elliott: emphasis on GUESSING
18:50:11 <cpressey> oerjan: anyway, i write in accumulator style by habit, and i know it's bad in haskell
18:51:07 <Vorpal> <cpressey> elliott: STOP MAKING POWERSHELL SCROLL and yes <-- eh?
18:51:15 <Vorpal> you mean it scrolls on activity?
18:51:21 <Vorpal> can't you turn that off?
18:51:28 <Vorpal> to have it just scroll on input or such
18:51:32 <elliott> most elaborate setup for a windows sucks joke ever
18:51:32 <cpressey> Vorpal: when it scrolls i can't select for a copy to clipb oard
18:51:35 <oerjan> cpressey: haskell has several test suites as well as haddock for documentation. not that i've used them.
18:52:03 <elliott> cpressey: python doctests are basically just assertions of == or prints, right?
18:52:05 <cpressey> oerjan: it has maybe been done
18:52:12 <elliott> cpressey: they have a little bit of fanciness to handle randomness/dates I think but still
18:52:31 <cpressey> elliott: assertion that "a repl session looks like this"
18:52:41 <elliott> cpressey: but it's basically a series of
18:52:43 <cpressey> which is usually overspecified
18:52:45 <elliott> cpressey: this code evaluates to this result
18:52:48 <elliott> this code prints this string
18:52:59 <elliott> the latter will basically never be tested in haskell ;)
18:53:02 <elliott> so the former is all that matters
18:53:05 <cpressey> prints, relying on repl semantics to print results
18:53:08 <elliott> so, easy enough project to do really
18:53:38 <elliott> things ksplice needs to be integrated with: Update Manager
18:54:03 <Vorpal> elliott, there are legal issues with that iirc
18:54:12 <Vorpal> well, for ubuntu to do it
18:54:24 <elliott> just offer a modified update manager package or whatever
18:54:26 <elliott> that replaces the usual one
18:54:51 <elliott> hmm they call upstart a 30-day trial, but only the non-ubuntu/fedora ones say "Try it now"
18:54:52 <Vorpal> elliott, tried 10.10 yet? Any good?
18:55:00 <elliott> the ubuntu and fedora ones say "Get it free!" and have a free download link
18:55:02 <elliott> so i guess there's no trial period
18:55:05 <oerjan> cpressey: my _vague_ understanding is quickcheck and smallcheck are useful in haskell for testing == kind of things, and hunit for actual IO related stuff
18:55:20 <elliott> Vorpal: i have no problem at all with 10.10. you'll probably have 20, as it continues to be more and more Ubuntuesque.
18:55:32 <oerjan> this may be severely out of date
18:55:34 <elliott> Vorpal: don't ask me a question before going bbl
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18:56:56 <elliott> "Ksplice Uptrack for Ubuntu Desktop 10.04 Lucid will be freely supported for as long as Ubuntu Lucid is the newest version of Ubuntu. When the next version of Ubuntu Desktop (10.10 Meerkat) is released, we anticipate freely supporting that next version for as long as it is the newest version of Ubuntu. We anticipate using a similar model for Fedora."
18:57:05 <oerjan> the machines are rising
18:57:24 <elliott> Can I configure Ksplice Uptrack to install updates automatically?
18:57:24 <elliott> Yes, you can enable the ill provide a smooth upgrade for sidux systems. In many ways nothing has changed but our name."
00:47:18 <elliott> what are the ways that have changed
00:47:29 <elliott> a disagreement between devs and the company
00:48:02 <elliott> involving companies in free OSes is always a bad idea i think.
00:48:14 <catseye> fuckin' crampin' our style
00:48:23 <elliott> catseye: oh shaddup it's true
00:48:37 <elliott> unless you were being serious
00:49:00 <catseye> elliott: neither serious nor in jest really
00:49:18 <elliott> Fuckin' rainbows, how do they work?
00:49:20 <Gregor> Though he is having sex with rainbows.
00:50:02 <elliott> "We got a theory" -- Insane Clown Posse, at the beginning
00:50:12 <elliott> "I HATE SCIENTISTS" -- Insane Clown Posse, near the end, paraphrased
00:52:04 <catseye> it IS true, but if you want to get *paid* for doing foss? guess what
00:52:13 <catseye> you must interface with the economy
00:52:44 <elliott> catseye: fuck getting paid :D
00:55:04 <catseye> anyway i liked that quote about the ibex
00:57:14 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover | GreaseMonkey, OK, so not being able to accurately store £0.10 is a tolerable error?
00:57:33 <catseye> if you are a large corporation with a valuation in the millions -- yes, totally.
00:57:45 <catseye> who gives a fuck about a few pence
00:57:56 <catseye> or whatever you call those things after decimalisation
00:58:02 <catseye> i think they're still pence...
00:58:34 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: [Explaining the plan] Alright so when the sub routine compounds the interest is uses all these extra decimal places that just get rounded off. So we simplified the whole thing, we rounded them all down, drop the remainder into an account we opened.
00:58:34 <elliott> Joanna: [Confused] So you're stealing?
00:58:34 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: Ah no, you don't understand. It's very complicated. It's uh it's aggregate, so I'm talking about fractions of a penny here. And over time they add up to a lot.
00:58:48 <elliott> catseye: Yes, they are still pence.
00:58:51 <elliott> Joanna: Oh okay. So you're gonna be making a lot of money, right?
00:58:52 <elliott> Joanna: Right. It's not yours?
00:58:52 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: Well it becomes ours.
00:58:52 <elliott> Joanna: How is that not stealing?
00:58:53 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: [pauses] I don't think I'm explaining this very well.
00:58:56 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: Um... the 7-11. You take a penny from the tray, right?
00:58:58 <elliott> Joanna: From the cripple children?
00:59:00 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: No that's the jar. I'm talking about the tray. You know the pennies that are for everybody?
00:59:04 <elliott> Joanna: Oh for everybody. Okay.
00:59:06 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: Well those are whole pennies, right? I'm just talking about fractions of a penny here. But we do it from a much bigger tray and we do it a couple a million times.
01:00:27 <elliott> I wonder if catseye has actually seen Office Space.
01:02:13 <catseye> elliott: I have but it was a long time ago.
01:02:30 <elliott> catseye: Yes, all those 11 -- almost 12 -- years ago, in 1999.
01:02:35 <elliott> [catseye feels UNSPEAKABLY OLD]
01:04:15 <catseye> also, if you are a large corporation: none of the developers you hire will be able to understand why you would not store currency in a float anyway. If you are lucky they will "understand" why it should be a double.
01:04:33 <elliott> catseye: dude, this place is a sanctuary. no talking about corporate development
01:04:51 <elliott> well okay but not all the time
01:04:57 <elliott> otherwise we'll just get #corporate-dev-sucks :P
01:07:10 <catseye> i got nothing. so don't let me stop you
01:07:27 <elliott> pikhq: You. Figure out a way to get a RAM-based filesystem to run a system from into RAM quickly.
01:07:56 <catseye> I think "John Freeman turned on off the computer" would make an awesome quit message.
01:08:00 <catseye> Hey, I did have something!
01:08:15 <elliott> catseye: But... but I thought it was stupid! :p
01:08:27 <elliott> Anyway it can't beat DEMOCRATIC PEER-REVIEW-BASED IRC DISCONNECTION.
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01:09:20 <Gregor> As demonstrated above.
01:09:48 <elliott> Gregor: No, as demonstrated by this!
01:09:56 <elliott> (As a last final note, I ought to watch Idiocracy sometime.)
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01:53:26 <Gregor> adobe_acrobat_reader is a product that is a kind of map
01:53:32 <Gregor> president_elect is a U.S. person
01:54:02 <Gregor> Whoops, copied the wrong one, that one is true X-P
01:54:07 <Gregor> shanghai is the capital city of the country china
01:54:15 <Gregor> outdoor_air is a weather phenomenon
01:54:20 <Gregor> (Is that true, or just nonsense?)
01:54:58 <Gregor> outdoor_air is a weather phenomenon
01:55:07 <Gregor> john is a musician who is part of ben_folds
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01:55:36 <Gregor> microsoft_sql_server is a consumer electronic device
01:56:22 <Gregor> envelope_llc_intelligent_nutrients is an office supply
01:56:30 <Gregor> barack is a politician who holds the office of secretary
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02:28:45 <Quadlex> I'm about to call a loan shark about a job they are offering
02:31:43 <catseye> I almost took a job at a usurer last year :)
02:32:24 -!- augur has joined.
02:35:32 <catseye> Fancy word for loan shark.
02:36:32 <Quadlex> And they actually seem really cool
02:36:38 <Quadlex> http://www.cashdoctors.com.au
02:38:59 <catseye> My offer was kind of like that, too... programmers had their own offices, the pay was good, etc.
02:39:21 <catseye> I ended up going to a different place because their health insurance was kind of crap, though.
02:40:07 <Quadlex> We're socialist nazi commies
02:40:08 <catseye> I'm from Canada originally, but in this awful place called the United States right nw...
02:44:10 unexpected log event :(
04:46:56 <pikhq> So far, I've got to say Debian is less of a complete and utter pain than Gentoo.
04:47:55 <Sgeo> Why does GTK+ hate me using my trackpad to scroll?
04:48:45 <pikhq> ... And seems to perform better.
04:49:01 <pikhq> From inside of a VM.
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04:59:32 <catseye> fungot: YOU APPEAR TO HAVE DIEDED
04:59:54 <catseye> fizzie: FUNGOT HAS APPEARED TO HAVE DIEDEDED
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05:07:47 * Sgeo allows Symantec to downgrade his beautiful new computer :(
05:13:07 <Gregor> calamari: Well, you only have two ears. With some physical simulation, should be totally feasible.
05:13:27 <Gregor> calamari: Reminds me of that barbershop recording ...
05:16:08 <pikhq> AAAARGH Debian (and clones) has one major, major breaker for me. Multiarch support is not quite finished.
05:17:03 <pikhq> calamari: Mplayer's "hrtf" plugin does that.
05:17:10 <Gregor> Yeah, multiarch sucks arse on Debian.
05:17:18 <pikhq> (abbreviation of "head-related transfer function", the method it uses for that)
05:17:20 <Gregor> I actually have a debootstrap-generated i386 chroot.
05:17:38 <pikhq> Gregor: Apparently they fell *just* short of getting multiarch into squeeze.
05:18:00 <pikhq> And here I thought it had the best chance of having decent multiarch.
05:18:14 <pikhq> Why is Gentoo's multiarch support *still* the only thing that even halfway works?
05:18:20 <Gregor> sid doesn't have useful multiarch.
05:18:28 <Gregor> pikhq: Because multiarch is (relatively) easy when you build everything.
05:18:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Except it's not even doing that.
05:18:50 <pikhq> Gregor: It's... Just got a handful of tarballs of x86_32 libraries.
05:19:07 <Gregor> Uhhh, that != multiarch support :P
05:19:17 <Gregor> Presumably Gentoo can build 32-bit libraries on x86_64?
05:19:31 <pikhq> Yeah, but it only does so for libc, IIRC.
05:20:10 <pikhq> The thing is, it also has packages for 32-bit only programs. Said programs on x86_64 depend on the tarballs instead of the actual libraries.
05:20:19 <pikhq> It's a damned hack, but *it fucking works*.
05:20:48 <Gregor> Debian has everything up to GTK+ for x86_32 on x86_64
05:21:15 <pikhq> Yeah, Gentoo's got... Basically all the dependencies for programs without x86_64 versions.
05:21:18 <Gregor> Plus apparently it has an installable x86_32 Java for some unimaginable reason.
05:21:41 * Sgeo is using a Toshiba Satellite T215
05:21:42 <pikhq> There's no official x86_64 Java binaries.
05:21:53 <pikhq> Builds just fine, though.
05:22:00 <Gregor> Ohhhhh, yeah, these are the sun packages, yeah.
05:22:07 <Sgeo> Oh, it's not considered a netbook
05:22:16 <Gregor> I of course have OpenJDK :P
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05:22:50 <pikhq> Well, yeah. It's just a bit less of a pain to deal with.
05:23:30 <Gregor> I hate to say it, but Mandriva has great multiarch support :P
05:24:04 <pikhq> I have seen the dark side of its multiarch support.
05:24:31 <pikhq> RPM has far far too many limitations.
05:24:40 <Gregor> Oh, RPM is garbagesauce on rye.
05:24:42 <Sgeo> ATI Integrated Radeon stuff > Intel integrated?
05:24:55 <Gregor> Sgeo: Hard to imagine it wouldn't be.
05:25:02 <Gregor> Sgeo: Unless you want it to work on Linux.
05:25:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: Unless power usage is your consideration, yes.
05:25:34 <Sgeo> Now, why does SL hate this thing?
05:25:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Official drivers should just work, the X11 drivers should just have somewhat shitty OpenGL performance.
05:25:46 <Gregor> pikhq: That's what I mean by "work" :P
05:25:59 <Gregor> I'm not convinced that ATI+Linux will even outperform Intel+Linux.
05:25:59 <pikhq> Gregor: No, I mean, the ones that are *built into X11*.
05:26:14 <Sgeo> Figured out how to stop XChat from minimizing to tray
05:26:44 * Gregor continues to munch on infant bones while watching the conversation unfold.
05:26:52 <pikhq> Nvidia+Linux is definitely better than ATI+Linux, performance-wise.
05:27:25 * Sgeo tries SL on lowest settings
05:30:44 * Sgeo angrily blibbers at the "32-bit only" thing in SL's requirements
05:32:15 <pikhq> You can fix that by building it.
05:38:05 <Gregor> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Orchestra_layout.svg This orchestra layout lists both "double basses" and "contrebasses". ... fail.
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05:45:42 <Sgeo> That worked well
05:46:09 <catseye> Gregor: there should also be separate sections for baritones and euphoniums
05:46:24 <Gregor> catseye: Considering that the arrangement is almost entirely wrong, it's sort of irrelevant.
05:46:26 <catseye> (baritone horn, of course)
05:47:10 <catseye> Not that those ever get into an orchestra.
05:47:27 <Gregor> Screw your euphonium :P
05:51:55 <catseye> Gregor: Perhaps there should be a seating arrangement for the coronets.
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06:34:53 <coppro> can you do an upgrade without breaking my sound?
06:37:08 <Sgeo> VLC comes with FluidSynth stuff?
06:37:12 <Sgeo> I can just use a soundfont?
06:37:34 <Quadlex> Real Ubuntu users are happy with brown wallpaper and silence
06:37:35 <Sgeo> And unicorns will take flight?
06:38:09 <Quadlex> Unicorns don't need to fly to get around
06:38:25 <Sgeo> Like Omnipresent Man!
06:38:49 <Quadlex> Yeah, he's Omnipresent, but does the bastard ever do anything?
06:38:56 <Quadlex> No, he's too busy with his hand on his dick
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06:48:01 <Vorpal> <pikhq> So, looking at seeing if/how Debian's made an abomination of things, being seduced by Slackware, aaand... I think I'll try random things from there. <-- arch is pretty good IMO
06:50:11 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Nvidia+Linux is definitely better than ATI+Linux, performance-wise. <-- last I checked, also stability-wise.
06:50:15 <Vorpal> that was a while ago though
06:50:27 <Vorpal> though intel graphics is probably most stable
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06:50:36 <Vorpal> worst when it comes to performance though
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06:52:54 <Vorpal> <coppro> can you do an upgrade without breaking my sound? <-- that is why you stay on LTS if using ubuntu
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06:58:53 <Quadlex> Vorpal: you've got some borogrove on your face
07:00:32 <Vorpal> Quadlex, new here, nick-changer, previously idler or just someone who been away for some time?
07:02:13 <Vorpal> meh, don't have time to wait for answer, need to leave or I'll miss the bus
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07:39:12 <fizzie> Re "brown wallpaper", also, the Meerkat wallpaper is pretty colorful and un-brown.
07:39:56 <fizzie> http://img3.imagebanana.com/img/x34gp6re/wartyfinalubuntu.jpg from a random google-image hit.
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07:48:21 <olsner> if you don't have a word for purple, that *is* brown
07:49:58 <fizzie> And I guess it's not so dissimilar in color from the not-quite-as-brown Lucid wallpaper -- http://www.kilobitspersecond.com/stuff/warty-final-ubuntu.jpg -- too.
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07:50:55 <fizzie> Karmic and Jaunty were pretty brown though.
07:51:50 <fizzie> (And Intrepid. And Hardy.)
07:58:59 <calamari> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGkkyKZVzug&feature=player_embedded#!
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08:00:31 <fizzie> You people keep saying the same thing; that link was posted by alise in 2010-09-28 and nooga in 2010-09-29. And I don't think clog was even down then, so no excuse at all!
08:01:19 <fizzie> Speaking of excuses, was I supposed to do something to fungot?
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08:24:49 <oerjan> ...and xkcd is back to just weird again.
08:29:37 <cheater99> linux aqualung with "metal" skin = awesome
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13:41:20 <SgeoN1> I just realized something horrible about Flatterland
13:42:36 <SgeoN1> It promotes the pseudoscientific bullshit involving taking scientific words, interpreting stuff as you please, and thinking it means something
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13:44:07 <SgeoN1> I feel no guilt about spoiling this: the last scene involves the protagonist basing arguments for gender equality on Flatland's supersymmetry
13:45:29 <SgeoN1> "Supersymmetric sister! ..."
13:46:03 <SgeoN1> I forgot the rest of her advertisement on Flatland's Internet
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14:04:08 <SgeoN1> I don't want to criticise the book I loved as a kid, but I must!
14:04:37 <SgeoN1> Just like Friend Computer! Friend Computer never breaHSUDJEHDHDHDHHHU
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14:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember you pondering why there wasn't a TV Tropes article on it a while ago...
14:09:40 -!- jcp has joined.
14:09:44 <Phantom_Hoover> And it doesn't seem to have a WP article, implying it's pretty obscure.
14:09:58 <SgeoN1> When it comes to books, I'm polygamous. Only with languages is it serial monogamy
14:11:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought the easy way to do calculus was from first principles...
14:13:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Although "easy" there depends entirely on one's point of view.
14:16:00 <SgeoN1> Going off irc to save battery
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14:17:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Heh: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/11/chilean-miners-rival-churches-tussle
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14:55:02 <elliott> quintopia: A Golly ruleset sounds interesting enough!
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14:56:11 <elliott> 17:16:34 <catseye> Gnome desktop.
14:56:12 <elliott> 17:16:37 <catseye> Trashcan.
14:56:46 <elliott> 17:53:26 <Gregor> adobe_acrobat_reader is a product that is a kind of map
14:57:39 <elliott> 20:46:56 <pikhq> So far, I've got to say Debian is less of a complete and utter pain than Gentoo.
14:57:45 <elliott> pikhq: stable, testing, sid?
15:00:43 <elliott> 22:37:34 <Quadlex> Real Ubuntu users are happy with brown wallpaper and silence
15:01:04 <elliott> 22:48:01 <Vorpal> <pikhq> So, looking at seeing if/how Debian's made an abomination of things, being seduced by Slackware, aaand... I think I'll try random things from there. <-- arch is pretty good IMO
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15:01:15 <elliott> It really isn't and pikhq is smart enough to have realised that already.
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15:32:08 <fizzie> Purple is the new brown, eh?
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15:35:19 <cpressey> < ais523> I'm amused at the way he called me a hacker with basically no evidence
15:35:31 <cpressey> wait, he... called you a hacker out of the blue?
15:35:44 <cpressey> bah, no ais523, and clog is probably still wack
15:36:54 <elliott> cpressey: ais523 has been "collaborating" with esr to get old c-intercal versions together because knuth wants it
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15:40:18 <cpressey> elliott: yes, i remembered that. but even in that context it's a bit creepy
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15:46:17 <Sgeo> Grrrrr at glare
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15:56:17 * Sgeo falls in love with WinSCP
16:01:24 <elliott> Urgh, pyFLTK's API is ugly.
16:01:54 <Gregor> The Fast Light ToolKit
16:02:05 <Gregor> And considering that FLTK's API is ugly itself, it's unsurprising that pyFLTK's API is ugly :P
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16:04:20 <elliott> Gregor: Well, it's not that ugly.
16:04:52 <elliott> Gregor: If they just chopped the Fl_ prefixes off, and changed foo.prop(x) to "foo.prop = x" and foo.prop() into foo.prop, it'd be almost perfect.
16:04:59 <elliott> Change labelsize and the like into label_size and it'd be perfect.
16:05:55 <elliott> Oh, and making the constructor args be e.g.
16:06:03 <elliott> Button((110, 130), (100, 35), 'Okay')
16:06:08 <elliott> Button(110, 130, 100, 35, 'Okay')
16:06:12 <elliott> would be a nice finishing touch.
16:09:52 <Gregor> elliott: So, if they changed almost every aspect of the API, it'd be ALMOST perfect :
16:10:04 <elliott> Gregor: Well, firstly, those are all *Python* changes.
16:10:12 <elliott> I wouldn't change the C++ API.
16:10:39 <elliott> Gregor: A sed one the names, wrapping property-functions as properties -- not hard -- and unpacking a tuple in contructors.
16:10:52 <elliott> (Then, as a super-optional thing, maybe s/foobar/foo_bar/.)
16:11:09 <elliott> Not exactly major API changes, just aesthetics.
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16:11:18 <elliott> Gregor: Name something with a nicer API.
16:11:36 * Sgeo attempts to get used to this keyboard
16:14:58 <Gregor> elliott: Like all languages, all APIs suck.
16:15:07 <elliott> Gregor: Name one that sucks less.
16:15:37 <Gregor> Hell, even STL sucks less.
16:15:47 <Gregor> I don't use enough C++ to make relevant comparisons though :P
16:15:52 <Gregor> And that's suck a ridiculous challenge.
16:15:58 <Gregor> "Name an API that sucks less than <x>"
16:17:25 <elliott> Gregor: name a GUI API that sucks less than FLTK
16:18:26 <Gregor> The only GUI APIs I've used are FLTK and GTK+, and GTK+ sure as hell ain't it.
16:18:41 <elliott> Gregor: Lemme put it this way.
16:18:50 <elliott> If you think FLTK has a terrible API, you haven't seen every other GUI API.
16:19:06 <Gregor> Because GUIs are for pussies.
16:19:08 <elliott> Tk's API is better, sure. Hell, so is Shoes', although nobody uses that for serious stuff.
16:19:12 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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16:20:55 <Sgeo> Are delete and exists magical?
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16:31:30 <elliott> Gregor: Now you've got me mocking up half-code of a non-shitty GUI API...
16:31:59 * Sgeo wonders why, exactly, this thing came with a 64-bit version of Win7
16:32:20 <Sgeo> It only has 2gbs, are there any relevant advantages to 64-bit considering that?
16:32:29 <cpressey> curses, you must use curses so that your app works on all terminals. oh you want to colorize your bash prompt? here's some vt100 escape codes, enjoy
16:34:05 <cpressey> Sgeo: actually I have no idea what you mean. Syntactically they're slightly magical, because they take a whole hash ref as argument, but don't evaluate it. Semantically, the hash can be tied, so other things can happen when you delete or exsists. But that is, afaik, all.
16:34:39 * Sgeo meant the syntactical bit
16:34:53 <Sgeo> That is, in fact, magic that I can't reproduce in my own functions?
16:35:31 <elliott> Gregor: http://pastie.org/pastes/1218376/text?key=jzpmwvfrsp1qg51leacw
16:35:39 <elliott> Gregor: Look, it doesn't suck!
16:35:57 <elliott> Gregor: (_ is "arrange horizontally", | vertically)
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16:38:37 <elliott> Actually, that switch's canecl should actually be
16:41:28 <elliott> Gregor: Psht, so unappreciative.
16:41:46 <elliott> Actually it should be case $cancel \cancel to cancel whatever event we're handling.
16:41:56 <elliott> Which implies to me that $cancel should have a default action of cancelling.
16:42:07 <elliott> Making the case perhaps unnecessary.
16:42:26 <elliott> cpressey: http://pastie.org/pastes/1218391/text?key=p2lt6cdvyvt1bgy7u9pj2q
16:44:11 -!- jcp has joined.
16:47:23 <cpressey> Sgeo: Not by any way I'm aware of, but my awareness essentially ends around 5.6 -- after that it's all a blur
16:47:31 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: http://pastie.org/pastes/1218391/text?key=p2lt6cdvyvt1bgy7u9pj2q
16:47:31 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: ADMIRE
16:47:49 <cpressey> elliott: attack of the mutant yamls.
16:48:16 <elliott> cpressey: As I said, _ means horizontal arrangement, and | means vertical
16:48:19 <elliott> The rest is somewhat obvious
16:48:32 <elliott> modified: [text contents != pages .(page_list selected) text]
16:48:32 <elliott> page_text: [pages .(page_list selected) text]
16:48:41 <elliott> page_text: [pages .(page_list selected) text]
16:48:42 <elliott> modified: [text contents != page_text]
16:49:32 <elliott> http://pastie.org/pastes/1218407/text?key=rvfz2k1dho97nel635zhg
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17:00:19 <elliott> cpressey does not even acknowledge my design POWAH
17:02:41 -!- jcp has joined.
17:04:00 <elliott> http://pastie.org/pastes/1218407/text?key=rvfz2k1dho97nel635zhg You made me do this, it's *your* responsibility to comment!
17:07:21 <elliott> Wirth's law: "Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster."
17:07:43 <elliott> Heh, didn't realise anyone had called it "Wirth's law" before.
17:08:15 <elliott> "Wirth attributed the saying to Martin Reiser" -- thus continuing to fulfil -- what's that law's name again?
17:08:25 <elliott> Where things are never attributed to the first person to think of them, instead the second.
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17:14:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: can you link me to that site that has a shitload of spaceships catalogued in various rules?
17:14:09 <elliott> and it tells you which are inverses of others, etc.
17:15:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's not affiliated with golly
17:15:34 <elliott> http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/
17:16:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the inverted versions, presumably
17:16:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Even then, there are definitely more than 40 spaceships in Life,
17:17:09 <Phantom_Hoover> And it's not that dated, either: it has the Caterpillar in it.
17:18:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Would it be that hard to replace give_obnoxious_warning_about_not_being_able_to_do_something_while_generating(); with stop(); do_thing();?
17:19:31 <Phantom_Hoover> It's... tolerable, if you zoom out when using Quicklife.
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17:21:24 <elliott> its editing is so limitedly-designed as to be useless
17:21:46 <elliott> simple operations like clearing a 50,000 x 50,000 square somehow take ten minutes
17:22:04 <elliott> okay so maybe that's more reasonable :)
17:22:18 <elliott> you can't save colours per-pattern
17:22:46 <elliott> Gregor: Wow. Tiny Core Linux has a KDE package.
17:22:57 <Gregor> Tiny Core is awesome :)
17:22:57 <elliott> Gregor: Never has KDE been in a less appropriate setting X-D
17:22:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, clearing a square is going to take a long time unless you're clever about it.
17:23:08 <elliott> "I totally want a ten megabyte micro-distro... with KDE 4."
17:23:11 <Gregor> It's Tiny CORE Linux, not Tiny EVERYTHING Linux
17:24:07 <elliott> Tiny Core may be cool but it's not as cool as KITTEN
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17:28:06 <HackEgo> 155|<Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing
17:28:27 <HackEgo> 215|<fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible)
17:28:59 <HackEgo> 127|<Ami> Discrimination fields ACTIVATE.
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17:29:07 <HackEgo> 63|<fizzie> The thing is just to exist
17:29:17 <HackEgo> 126|<Warrigal> Ah, vulva. <Warrigal> What is that, anyway?
17:29:21 <HackEgo> 98|<fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i"
17:29:24 <HackEgo> 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
17:29:27 <HackEgo> 19|<Warrigal> "You're at that stage in your life where you're going to want to do some things in private." --my mom
17:29:34 <HackEgo> 2|<Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
17:30:09 <HackEgo> 77|<ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
17:30:33 <HackEgo> 6|<Keiya> I think the freemasons are actually a cover for homosexual men.
17:31:34 <HackEgo> 88|<Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in?
17:31:37 <HackEgo> 128|<Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
17:31:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/pastes/1218391/text?key=p2lt6cdvyvt1bgy7u9pj2q BEHOLD (because nobody else will)
17:32:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/pastes/1218501/text?key=kgj5a2hgnlvgoqqntjkg
17:32:10 <elliott> http://pastie.org/pastes/1218501/text?key=kgj5a2hgnlvgoqqntjkg
17:32:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I complained about pyFLTK's API, Gregor complained about FLTK's API
17:32:25 <elliott> I noted that all GUI libs sucked
17:32:30 <elliott> I wrote my own fakecode for something that sucked a bit less
17:32:39 <elliott> And the previous one sucks, only look at the latest one
17:36:38 <fungot> cpressey: riastradh oh, indeed. i'd prefer to just call fnord or whatever.)
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17:41:11 <elliott> Gregor: UNFORTUNATELY KDE4-DESKTOP.TCZ DOESN'T INSTALL.
17:41:21 <elliott> Should have gone with attilaspell.tcz
17:43:15 <Gregor> elliott: Only Atilla can install it.
17:43:31 <elliott> Gregor: Totally preempted you there.
17:44:15 <elliott> IT MIGHT BE WORKING THIS TIME
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17:48:49 <Vorpal> elliott, what distro is that?
17:50:06 <elliott> Vorpal: "I see no reason to listen to you"r questions.
17:50:41 -!- jcp has joined.
17:53:19 <cpressey> select the function you want to call from the dropdown
17:54:03 <elliott> cpressey: Sounds like Excel.
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18:14:33 <nooga> someone just told me that i'm Roy from IT Crowd
18:14:59 <nooga> actually i heard it twice
18:15:06 <nooga> from my boss and from my date
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18:28:22 <elliott> Gregor: you're right gui development sucks
18:36:27 <Vorpal> elliott, not giving me credit for saying that several times before? Oh well *shrug*
18:37:06 <elliott> Vorpal: You can't do GUI development because of some sort of cognitive deformity. I was merely referring to the current crop of *common* toolkits.
18:37:14 <elliott> There are a few I like, but they are mostly dead projects.
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18:38:00 <elliott> And please either start ignoring me entirely, or talk in more than passive-aggressive slights.
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18:43:55 <nooga> elliot sound okay to me
18:44:16 <nooga> what's the difference between t and tt anyway?
18:48:28 <elliott> (OK, so it's not pronounced identically, but my point is made.)
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18:55:41 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: You can't do GUI development because of some sort of cognitive deformity. I was merely referring to the current crop of *common* toolkits. <-- hm, no, I never claimed I wasn't able to do it at all in theory
18:55:55 <Vorpal> I said I disliked it, and implicitly referred to any GUI toolkits I used
18:56:44 <Vorpal> <elliott> And please either start ignoring me entirely, or talk in more than passive-aggressive slights. <-- do you know what "the golden rule" means?
18:57:20 <elliott> I am perfectly willing to not talk to you if you stop highlighting me with questions that ask for a response.
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18:57:53 <fizzie> elliott: fi:aita = en:fence, fi:aitta = en:granary/storehouse/whatever. We have these delightful meaning-changes when it comes to "t"/"tt".
18:58:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I have nothing against talking to you in general.
19:00:57 <cpressey_> Korean also pronounces t/tt (and d/dd) differently.
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19:01:19 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey.
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19:03:17 <fizzie> cpressey: Also, I didn't notice anything wrong with fungot; maybe you just hit the "I will only answer to the same guy four or so times in a row" limit?
19:03:17 <fungot> fizzie: then ask for more time to demi, irc-galleria, pouet, deviantart, newsgroups etc. it would be more fun
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19:04:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, does the t/tt thing change the quality of the t or the letter before it (the latter would be like in Swedish)
19:08:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think officially what it changes is the length of the silent part in /t/. It doesn't (much) change the neighbouring letters; Finnish has, or at least is approximated reasonably well by a simple mapping from text to phonemes.
19:09:08 <Vorpal> hm what do you mean with silent part though
19:10:00 <fizzie> Record something with a t and take a look if you want.
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19:12:05 <fizzie> "In the articulation of the stop, three phases can be distinguished:
19:12:06 <fizzie> * Catch: The airway closes so that no air can escape through the mouth (hence the name stop). With nasal stops, the air escapes through the nose.
19:12:06 <fizzie> * Hold or occlusion: The airway stays closed, causing a pressure difference to build up (hence the name occlusive).
19:12:06 <fizzie> * Release or burst: The closure is opened. In the case of plosives, the released airflow produces a sudden impulse causing an audible sound (hence the name plosive)."
19:12:09 <fizzie> The middle part, then.
19:12:21 <Vorpal> of course, double consonants can change a lot in Swedish too, but in that case it changes the quality of the preceding vowel. Like sil (en:sieve) and sill (a kind of fish, seems like I forgot what that one is called in English)
19:13:28 <elliott> Grr, I hate it when TLDs and language codes don't match.
19:13:35 <elliott> se.wikipedia.org is not Swedish.
19:14:49 <fizzie> The 'sv' code is a bit annoying; I remember not noticing it when looking at a suitable keymap in NetBSD, since it only listed them by language code. (There wasn't one for fi, but sv is usable enough.)
19:15:25 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I agree it is annoying
19:15:26 <elliott> It would be nice to have a translate thing here that uses interwiki.
19:15:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I always have to think if I want se or sv when I select keymap on a livecd
19:15:48 <elliott> <HackEgo> Atlantic herring
19:16:02 <elliott> <HackEgo> Whoops no article lol
19:16:06 <Vorpal> elliott, herring sounds about right
19:16:22 <elliott> <HackEgo> ERROR REFUSE TO SHOW NYNORK BECAUSE AM BIGOT BOT
19:16:30 <elliott> nynork, what a spelling error
19:16:31 <Vorpal> elliott, what really? :D
19:16:52 <fizzie> Nynork sounds like some sort of a D&D monster.
19:16:53 <elliott> interestingly, the Swedish wiki links to the Nynorsk article for herring
19:17:02 <Gregor> tr has been borkleborked for a while.
19:17:05 <elliott> and that one links to the Bokm\oal one
19:17:11 <Gregor> IGNORE MY PAST THREE LINES.
19:17:21 <elliott> the Swedish one doesn't link to the bokmal one directly
19:17:29 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, tr is a bit bad name for it
19:17:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes yes, I didn't think.
19:17:43 <elliott> Instead ponder why interwiki is silly.
19:17:56 <elliott> What kind of interwiki doesn't catch second-level interwikis?
19:17:59 <Vorpal> elliott, trans or something like that might work (unless that is taken too, in which case I guess I didn't think)
19:18:02 <elliott> (i.e. "this listed interwiki links to this other interwiki")
19:18:09 <Vorpal> [think that is was] that is ;)
19:18:12 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe "iw" for interwiki
19:18:55 <Vorpal> elliott, iw says here: "Usage: iw [options] command" but then I wouldn't expect it on a server, since it deals with 802.11 stuff
19:19:11 <elliott> It goes in ~/bin, so who cares.
19:19:30 <Vorpal> elliott, tr is the kind of thing shell scripts in ~/bin might use
19:19:38 <Vorpal> but yeah, iw would work very well
19:19:43 <cpressey> Nynork nynork, it's a helluva town
19:19:58 <elliott> "<query-continue>" fuck you i want the whole query
19:19:58 <quintopia> cpressey thinks the way i do, apparently
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19:20:48 <elliott> olsner: I actually meant nynorsk
19:21:05 <quintopia> when you're blue and you don't know where to go to, why don't you go where fashion sits?
19:22:39 <elliott> http://redhatinbluesea.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/j4lup.jpeg
19:23:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Or even "interwiki" + "translate" = intertrans! The most vague thing ever.
19:23:35 <elliott> Except having connotations of an intersexed, transgender person.
19:23:42 <Vorpal> elliott, true, a bit tedious to type though
19:23:58 <Vorpal> I mean, there are some virtues in a short name
19:24:01 <elliott> "11 am? I'm afraid you're wikilate. You're wikifired."
19:24:32 <elliott> Vorpal: So do you have an wl(1)?
19:24:43 <Gregor> "wikileven wikiam? WikI'm wikfraid wiki're wikilate. Wiki're wikifired."
19:24:59 <Vorpal> elliott, not on any turned on computer at least
19:25:21 <Vorpal> elliott, that jpg (err, jpeg actually, how unusual), is it supposed to be on top of a communion bread?
19:25:33 <Vorpal> it kind of looks a bit like that
19:25:47 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is obviously Putin :P
19:25:51 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puttin'_on_the_Ritz
19:26:10 <elliott> So funny it has a capital SOOOOO?
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19:28:43 <elliott> Gregor: HackEgo totally needs a way to take quoted arguments.
19:28:53 <elliott> By which I mean "please, god, don't make me feed every call through sh".
19:29:08 <elliott> Actually you can just use _.
19:29:37 <Vorpal> elliott, the `run thingy isn't that irritating IMO. Just 4 letters more
19:29:59 <Vorpal> but sure, it would be nice to avoid it
19:30:43 <Vorpal> elliott, still, there are more annoying things, like !haskell doing ghci then ghc, and not reporting any errors for some cases
19:30:52 <Vorpal> (instead just failing silently)
19:31:06 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, does HackEgo have network?
19:31:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember he used the owner netfilter match
19:31:32 <Vorpal> to block it for all but a handful of things
19:31:35 <elliott> Gregor: tl;dr I need *.wikipedia.org access.
19:32:19 <Vorpal> elliott, that is, he was considering how to solve the network issue then I mentioned the owner match and he concluded it fitted perfectly, so unless he changed I presume he still uses that
19:33:10 <Vorpal> hm I just noticed how silly "so unless he changed I presume he still uses that" actually is if you read what it actually means
19:33:34 <Gregor> elliott: It has an http proxy, I can give extra access on request. Wikipedia seems reasonable, one sec.'
19:33:45 <elliott> Gregor: I need all language codes, mind :P
19:33:54 <Vorpal> (of course he might not be, in which case he isn't, and then doesn't use that)
19:33:58 <elliott> Can I just access normally or do I need to write my program for the proxy?
19:34:02 <Vorpal> okay, that was a bit too extreme to match zzo
19:34:14 <Gregor> elliott: It needs to be proxy-aware.
19:34:26 <Gregor> elliott: If you're writing something using e.g. wget to do requests, then you're fine.
19:34:29 <elliott> Gregor: Fucking fuckshit fuck you okay how do I do it?
19:34:42 <elliott> Gregor: Is it SOCKS or something horrible?
19:34:50 <Gregor> It's a standard HTTP proxy.
19:34:51 <Vorpal> elliott, that's python isn't it (urllib2 I mean)?
19:35:10 <Vorpal> elliott, why the 2, I never seem to remember seeing any urllib
19:35:21 <elliott> urllib2 uses it internally.
19:35:26 <elliott> In Python 3 it's a saner name.
19:35:39 <elliott> class urllib2.ProxyHandler([proxies])
19:35:40 <elliott> Cause requests to go through a proxy. If proxies is given, it must be a dictionary mapping protocol names to URLs of proxies. The default is to read the list of proxies from the environment variables . If no proxy environment variables are set, in a Windows environment, proxy settings are obtained from the registry’s Internet Settings section and in a Mac OS X environment, proxy information is retrie
19:35:40 <elliott> ved from the OS X System Configuration Framework.
19:35:52 <elliott> Gregor: What's the URoLogy?
19:36:04 <Vorpal> elliott, well that is only to be expected, they did use the opportunity of python 3 breaking things anyway to clear up some weirdness
19:36:51 <elliott> `run echo $HTTP_PROXY FUCK YEAH
19:36:56 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:37:18 <elliott> Gregor: Why couldn't you just IP firewall it ;__
19:37:26 <Vorpal> elliott, he is doing that as well
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19:37:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, you still use the owner match I presume?
19:38:42 <elliott> Gregor: "The default is to read the list of proxies from the environment variables"
19:38:45 <elliott> You should totally set that propertly
19:38:55 <elliott> *variables." (it's " ." in the source text but I'm sure that's a mistake.)
19:41:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:41:32 <pikhq> elliott: I was testing Testing.
19:41:37 -!- cpressey_ has joined.
19:41:41 <elliott> pikhq: Testing? Testing testing?
19:41:55 <pikhq> elliott: Apparently Sid isn't going to get multiarch support until Squeeze is made stable.
19:41:59 <elliott> Testing testing testing? ("Testing to see if you want to test testing")
19:42:09 <elliott> MULTIARCH UP THE ANUS^WWAZOO
19:42:14 <Sgeo> Someone should write unit tests for the unit tests of the unit testing framework
19:42:25 <pikhq> So, basically, until then, Debian will suck more than Gentoo on amd64, regardless.
19:42:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, multiarch as in proper lib32?
19:42:40 <pikhq> elliott: So, how *is* Kitten going to handle multiple ABIs?
19:42:42 <Vorpal> that would be so awesome
19:43:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: Gentoo kinda sucks at it and has it very hacky.. (tarballs of libraries) Debian has that, but less comprehensive.
19:43:21 <elliott> pikhq: # pkg ins libc --arch=x86
19:43:28 <elliott> pikhq: # pkg ins libc --arch=x86-64
19:43:33 <elliott> pikhq: # pkg ins libc --arch=arm
19:43:38 <pikhq> elliott: And the filesystem layout?
19:43:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, most distros I know of has it very hacky
19:43:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: Quite true.
19:43:59 <pikhq> elliott: Per-ABI bin/lib/... dirs?
19:44:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, correction: all distros, except arch recently made it somewhat more sane
19:44:05 <elliott> pikhq: I'm open to suggestions on that. Probably something like /lib32, /lib64, /libarm.
19:44:20 <elliott> pikhq: Or, perhaps even: root is your native architecture, beyond that it's /arch/...
19:44:37 <elliott> But really, I'm open to suggestions.
19:44:46 <pikhq> elliott: Make it the actual ABI tuple.
19:45:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, arch still doesn't provide a complete set of 32-bit packages on 64-bit, but the repo and package layouts is quite a bit saner than in gentoo (one package matches one package, not one package matches a bunch of loosely related packages)
19:45:03 <elliott> pikhq: I might hide it away in an /arch/ directory to avoid the ugly.
19:45:09 <Gregor> Sorry, had an ad-hoc meeting.
19:45:14 <elliott> Wait, does NetBSD have ABI tuples?
19:45:26 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:45:30 <pikhq> It's an autotools convention that's gotten spread elsewhere.
19:45:51 <Vorpal> it is one of the few sane things coming from autotools
19:45:52 <elliott> pikhq: I'm not sure what the OS part of Kitten's would be though.
19:46:34 <pikhq> And it'd probably be best to have the same filesystem layout regardless of what the native ABI is; some packages hardcode paths in, and it's easier to not have to patch that.
19:46:43 <Vorpal> elliott, *-netbsd-<whatever sort of userland you use>
19:46:54 <Vorpal> bsd userland? I presume you wouldn't use gnu userland
19:46:56 <elliott> Vorpal: *-netbsd-kitten, then.
19:47:06 <elliott> I might use newlib libc with BSD coreutils. Who knows?
19:47:09 <pikhq> elliott: The convention is that the last bit is based on the libc.
19:47:25 <Vorpal> elliott, then *-netbsd-newlib
19:47:40 <elliott> Vorpal: But what if I change libc?! (Okay, yeah, everything will have to be rebuilt anyway :P)
19:47:49 <pikhq> For instance, i686-pc-linux-gnu for a "normal" Linux system, but i686-pc-linux-uclibc for a uclibc system.
19:47:59 <Vorpal> elliott, except you could now have them side by side when rebuilding!
19:48:07 <pikhq> elliott: If you have the filesystem layout based on the ABI tuple, you could have them both!
19:48:14 <pikhq> elliott: Even if you dynamically link!
19:48:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, the pc stuff, none of my systems have it
19:48:39 <elliott> As far as I'm concerned there's no reason not just to have an arch option when building packages.
19:48:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, wait, actually one does
19:48:53 <elliott> Easy enough for the package to have arch-specific dependencies, too.
19:48:58 <Gregor> Heh, Wikipedia was already whitelisted :P
19:48:58 <Gregor> `run wget http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ -O -
19:49:03 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> \ <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en" dir="ltr"> \ <head> \ <title>Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</title> \ <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />
19:49:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, one is x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, the other ones are x86_64-linux-gnu
19:49:10 <elliott> `run wget http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/ -O - | head
19:49:12 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> \ <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="sv" dir="ltr"> \ <head> \ <title>Wikipedia, den fria encyklopedin</title> \ <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />
19:50:09 <Vorpal> elliott, nice coincidence, head getting (most of) <head>
19:51:08 <Vorpal> `run curl http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/ | head
19:51:10 <elliott> Gregor: What's the download-this command again?
19:51:28 <pikhq> So, it seems Mandriva is the only distro with actual multi-arch support.
19:51:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, mandriva is in all other aspects not a sane choice
19:51:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: Quite right.
19:52:06 <olsner> sounds pretty neat to have all architectures' packages available and installable
19:52:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, also I'm surprised it supports it if other RPM based distros don't
19:52:25 <elliott> olsner: Well, that's the thing; there isn't one pakage per architecture.
19:52:33 <Vorpal> yeah, mostly useful for ones you can run, for cross compiling it is a bit more work
19:52:34 <elliott> There's "newlib" and if it supports the given architecture, good for you.
19:52:44 <Vorpal> elliott, source based distro?
19:52:46 <elliott> Vorpal: It will treat it all as cross-compilation.
19:52:53 <olsner> wait, is this source-based?
19:53:00 <elliott> Just with the knowledge that "gcc -m32" is a valid 32-bit cross-compiler on 64-bit.
19:53:03 <Vorpal> elliott, ever done a canadian cross?
19:53:09 <elliott> Vorpal: olsner: Not source-based.
19:53:18 <elliott> Although you will be able to build-and-install a package with one command.
19:53:23 <elliott> If you really want to for some reason.
19:53:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: RPM itself actually has support for multiple ABIs. No other distro *actually uses it*.
19:53:36 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, ever done a canadian cross?
19:54:06 <Gregor> Canadian cross = just don't go there.
19:54:26 <elliott> Basically 32-bit and 64-bit support will just work... I'll have to tell the package manager about cross-compilers for --arch=arm on x86 or something, but that's not so difficult.
19:54:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I heard someone cross compiling gdb on OS X to run on linux (the resulting gdb binary that is). Why? Because it had to target debugging OS X. Remote kernel debugging.
19:54:31 <olsner> cross-compiling a cross-compiler? what's so hard about that? :D
19:54:36 <Vorpal> and it didn't want to compile on linux
19:54:44 <elliott> All it has to do is install the relevant cross-compiler.
19:54:51 <Vorpal> compared to that, a canadian cross seems like a stroll in the park!
19:54:57 <elliott> (There probably won't be one package per host and target architecture.)
19:55:10 <elliott> (Instead, a cross-compiling gcc or whatever will be a single metapackage, taking host and target as argument/options.)
19:55:13 <Gregor> Vorpal: There effectively is no anything-to-OS-X cross-compiler, so that's unsurprising.
19:55:16 <olsner> well, if you do canadian cross of the compiler, you'll probably want to do it of the rest of the toolchain too, including gdb
19:55:38 <elliott> `fetch http://pastie.org/pastes/1218858/text?key=rmrta4udnevkdlwt0vgxg
19:55:42 <HackEgo> 2010-10-13 18:55:36 URL:http://pastie.org/pastes/1218858/text?key=rmrta4udnevkdlwt0vgxg [1486/1486] -> "text?key=rmrta4udnevkdlwt0vgxg" [1]
19:55:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, actually the guy got the cross compiling to OS X to kind of work, but not for gdb.
19:55:50 <olsner> so the osx-linux-osx gdb thing would pretty much be included in the work for the canadian cross
19:55:55 <elliott> that actually doesn't work without `run
19:56:00 <elliott> `run rm "text?key=rmrta4udnevkdlwt0vgxg"
19:56:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, as in, he successfully cross compiled "hell of a world" as a test (he refused to use "hello world" after all he had to go through to make it work)
19:58:33 <elliott> `fetch http://pastie.org/pastes/1218882/text?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog
19:58:35 <HackEgo> 2010-10-13 18:58:29 URL:http://pastie.org/pastes/1218882/text?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog [1553/1553] -> "text?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog" [1]
19:58:39 <elliott> `run mv text?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog bin/wl
19:59:08 <olsner> if kitten is netbsd-based, will the freebsd opera builds work?
19:59:16 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:59:20 <elliott> olsner: maybe. who knows? if not, try the linux emulation ;)
19:59:25 <elliott> `fetch http://pastie.org/pastes/1218882/download?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog
19:59:28 <HackEgo> 2010-10-13 18:59:22 URL:http://pastie.org/pastes/1218882/download?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog [1124/1124] -> "download?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog" [1]
19:59:41 <elliott> `run cat download?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog >bin/wl; rm download?key=1grvzo3sho5cexf4rrmog
20:00:04 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/tmp/hackenv.13346/bin/wl", line 5, in <module> \ import json \ ImportError: No module named json
20:00:42 <Vorpal> elliott, will kitten still run on toasters?
20:00:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. If your toaster can run X11.
20:01:00 <elliott> (Okay, so X11 isn't required, but still.)
20:01:14 <Vorpal> elliott, hah. Will it be officially supported?
20:01:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, if your toaster has a standard PC inside.
20:01:38 <Vorpal> elliott, ouch. That is not likely
20:01:48 <elliott> Neither is your toaster having any kind of computer inside :)
20:02:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well of course, but I meant, even ATX-mini is a bit large :P
20:02:07 <elliott> Vorpal: OTOH, all brands of coffee maker will be supported.
20:02:19 <elliott> Hopefully I will support RFC2324.
20:02:36 <elliott> Wow, RFC2324 is sucky. It isn't even REST!
20:02:51 <Vorpal> elliott, ah nice, I have one here that is completely devoid of anything like an integrated circuit
20:03:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I redefine "coffee maker" to mean "coffee maker with a computer hooked up to it".
20:03:12 <Vorpal> it is just a plain old electrical coffee maker, so simple inside that even your grandmum could understand it :P
20:03:26 <Gregor> What's all this about toasting kittens?
20:03:26 <Vorpal> elliott, and that computer must be a PC? :D
20:03:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, ...you did that intentionally right?
20:03:49 <Gregor> Toasted kittens? NEVER!
20:04:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> Wow, RFC2324 is sucky. It isn't even REST! <-- the cofee makers never rest!
20:05:00 <elliott> alias coffee="curl -d '' http://kitchenpc:999/brew"
20:05:03 <Gregor> elliott: How about 2.7
20:05:07 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, one of the major reasons to actually have per-ABI directories is so that you actually have the flexibility to do something like install x86 programs on ARM and have them "just work" with qemu (and Linux's arbitrary ABI support).
20:05:18 <elliott> alias coffee-status="curl -q http://kitchenpc:999/status"
20:05:19 <Vorpal> elliott, um that should be the BREW method :P
20:05:30 <elliott> $ coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee; coffee
20:05:50 <Vorpal> (as in, a flood of coffee)
20:05:52 <elliott> Vorpal: No, this is HTCPCPCP
20:06:01 <elliott> Hyper Text Coffee Pot Control Protocol Crappy. Perfect!
20:06:06 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed! it flooded your kitchen with cofee
20:06:09 <elliott> It is the RESTful alternatiev to HTCPCP.
20:06:35 <olsner> eugh, "BREW method" ... don't write brew with all-caps or I'll be reminded of Binary Runtime Environment for Wireless :/
20:06:55 <Vorpal> olsner, what was binary runtime environment for wireless?
20:07:03 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BREW
20:07:08 <elliott> Gregor: You can apt upgrade the stuff inside, right?
20:07:13 <elliott> Gregor: Plz just upgrade Python to 2.6
20:07:19 <Gregor> elliott: But I can install from source.
20:07:23 <elliott> Gregor: Okay... well... do that please :P
20:07:28 <elliott> Python 2.5.5 is ancientish.
20:07:46 <elliott> So I didn't think it'd have 2.7.
20:08:01 <Gregor> Worse yet, HackBot is on Debian Lenny.
20:08:04 <Gregor> Which is why it has 2.5
20:08:30 <Vorpal> Gregor, is lenny not like previous stable?
20:08:31 <elliott> Didn't they promise to start upgrading regularly?
20:08:40 <elliott> but it's had point-releases
20:08:49 <elliott> coppro: Get on to fucking that shit, stat.
20:09:01 <Vorpal> elliott, which was previous stable? There was something in between woody and lenny right?
20:09:14 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, ideally buzz of course, but hamm at the very least.
20:09:17 <Vorpal> elliott, why not python 3 btw?
20:09:31 <Gregor> elliott: I used potato once :P
20:09:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Python 3 is completely useless as it has approximately 0 library support and approximately 0 things written in it.
20:09:39 <quintopia> anyone want to hear a TERRIBLE math class homework question?
20:09:41 <elliott> Gregor: Potato is .2 versions newer than hamm! Can't have that.
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20:10:06 <elliott> Man, what will Debian do when they run out of Toy Story characters?
20:10:11 <elliott> Start naming them after the individual soldiers?
20:10:21 <quintopia> Which of the following are continuous functions? (Select all that apply.)
20:10:24 <Gregor> elliott: Use Toy Story {2,3} characters, presumably.
20:10:30 <quintopia> 1 The temperature at a specific location as a function of time. 2 The temperature at a specific time as a function of the distance due west from New York City. 3 The altitude above
20:10:34 <quintopia> sea level as a function of the distance due west from New York City. 4 The cost of a taxi ride as a function of the distance traveled. 5 The current in the circuit for the lights in a
20:10:47 <elliott> Gregor: Even that plan has... flaws.
20:10:53 <elliott> Gregor: "Boy, I can't wait for Debian barbie!"
20:10:58 <Vorpal> quintopia, any other ones?
20:11:00 <Gregor> I was just about to say that :P
20:11:01 <Vorpal> quintopia, or was that all?
20:11:08 <pikhq> elliott: http://lackof.org/taggart/hacking/multiarch/ Oh, here's a thought on how to do multiarch "right".
20:11:13 <Gregor> elliott: I preordered the Barbie Computer Engineer :P
20:11:31 <Vorpal> quintopia, well I don't know about taxi, but all the other ones are discrete, due to quantum mechanics
20:11:38 <elliott> Gregor: Debian lotsohugginbear
20:11:38 <quintopia> my best guess at reading the asker's mind says "the first three" while the actual correct answer i believe to be "none of the above"
20:12:00 <elliott> Gregor: (Yes yes, it'd just be lotso, shut up.)
20:12:11 <quintopia> however, the problem is compounded by not knowing whether the asker wants time zones to be taken into account in number 2.
20:12:22 <elliott> pikhq: OK, well, it looks relatively good, except:
20:12:35 <elliott> pikhq: The -os prefix is stupid, Kitten is not going to run on the same FS as any other OS.
20:12:47 <Gregor> elliott: Maybe ... JUST MAYBE ... at some point they'll come to their senses and use numbers.
20:12:48 <Vorpal> quintopia, anyway, current in a circuit might be continuous if there is a dimmer connected (well not really due to quantum mechanics9
20:12:49 <elliott> pikhq: And /*/foo directories are silly and /foo/* is a far better structure for things like that.
20:13:16 <pikhq> elliott: But you might want to support another OS's ABI someday.
20:13:19 <quintopia> vorpal: ignoring quantum mechanical effects, 5 would be continuous with or without a dimmer.
20:13:21 <elliott> Gregor: Debian chattertelephone
20:13:26 <elliott> Gregor: Debian jackinthebox
20:13:41 <elliott> ("What are you running?" "Debian pricklepants.")
20:13:42 <Vorpal> quintopia, well yes, since current doesn't change instantly
20:13:48 <elliott> pikhq: Well, okay, NetBSD does support Linux emulation.
20:13:54 <quintopia> but i suspect the asker expects to also ignore the latency in change of current in a wire
20:14:00 <elliott> Gregor: Debian totoro (I <3 THAT CAMEO FOREVER)
20:14:01 <Vorpal> quintopia, so why not write a proper answer to it!
20:14:15 <pikhq> elliott: Just use it so that you can have multiple kernel ABIs "just work".
20:14:32 <pikhq> elliott: Not having to change things in the future is GOOD.
20:14:38 <elliott> pikhq: I'LL THINK ABOUT IT
20:14:39 <Vorpal> quintopia, surely you can't get in trouble from writing a paragraph answering it properly
20:14:50 <elliott> Gregor: Oh man Debian zurg.
20:14:55 <elliott> That had better be the best release EVER.
20:15:10 <quintopia> Vorpal: it's not my homework. i have no need to. i just wanted to post its awfulness here so that i could say that the person whose homework it is, after getting a wave of complaints that the question is ambiguous, said "i'll go ask somewhere where people will actually want to help me."
20:15:14 <Gregor> elliott: They can use that as a transitionary release by spelling it both "zurg" and "zerg"
20:15:22 <Gregor> elliott: Then they can have Debian Protoss and Debian Terran
20:15:27 <elliott> <Vorpal> quintopia, well I don't know about taxi, but all the other ones are discrete, due to quantum mechanics ;; oh come on
20:15:29 <Gregor> Admittedly that doesn't get them too much farther ...
20:15:37 <Vorpal> quintopia, okay then the person who asked for help is stupid too
20:15:39 <pikhq> Gregor: Unit names.
20:15:51 <Vorpal> elliott, wasn't it obvious it was a joke?
20:16:06 <elliott> Vorpal: No, because it wasn't funny :P
20:16:26 <elliott> Gregor: Wait. With Totoro they can "reasonably" claim that My Neighbour Totoro took place entirely within the Toy Story universe.
20:16:42 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, lets rephrase that: wasn't it obvious it couldn't have been meant to be taken seriously?
20:16:42 <elliott> Gregor: I'm talkin' Debian catbus here.
20:16:42 <pikhq> Gregor: Alternately, they could *commission* more Toy Story films just to have more namespace.
20:16:46 <quintopia> elliott: i also stated that the correct answer would be "none of the above" due to the discrete nature of the universe. want to bitch me out for pedanticism too?
20:16:49 <Gregor> elliott: There ya go, lots of new names.
20:16:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:17:14 <elliott> No OS can ever possibly hope to live up to that name.
20:17:16 <pikhq> "Toy Story 4: Debian Versioning"
20:17:52 <elliott> pikhq: But Disney/Pixar are jerks, so they give all the characters names in Klingon.
20:18:18 <Gregor> But Debian wouldn't use the number-names in order.
20:18:27 <Gregor> They'd have Debian 5.5, then Debian 4.7, then Debian 8.2
20:19:04 <Gregor> Or maybe Debian 8.0 "Four Point Seven"
20:19:09 <Vorpal> that would be quite fun
20:19:31 <elliott> Oh man, the Tux would have to be a character in Toy Story 4: Debian Versioning.
20:19:54 <Vorpal> elliott, they could reuse the cast from previous movies in the newly commissioned one. That would be even more jerky
20:20:06 <elliott> deb http://http.us.debian/org/debian debian main
20:20:42 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and of course the Gnu gnu, just to irritate everyone but FSF. Oh wait, they would probably irritated too, since that is the natural state of them.
20:21:15 <elliott> Have rms appear as the main antagonist
20:21:17 <quintopia> they should have the cast be: woody, buzz, bo peep, the main bug from bug's life, the little boy from Up, Mike Waczowski, and Tux
20:21:28 <elliott> But they won't use outright evil characters for release names will they :(
20:21:38 <Vorpal> elliott, no. Debian GNU/Linux 12.0 "gnu"
20:21:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:22:14 -!- augur has joined.
20:22:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, sid is always fixed to unstable though afaik
20:22:24 <elliott> pikhq: ...is the unstable release.
20:22:30 <olsner> oh, are the debian releases named after toy story characters?
20:22:33 <elliott> They'll never codename experimental because that's giving it too much legitimacy :P
20:22:37 <pikhq> elliott: And an outright evil character.
20:22:44 <Vorpal> olsner, or actually no
20:22:47 <Vorpal> olsner, it is the other way around
20:23:04 <Vorpal> olsner, Toy story characters are named after Debian releases
20:23:13 <elliott> pikhq: sid is never released.
20:23:51 <Vorpal> elliott, experimental, is that like unstable, just more so?
20:23:58 <pikhq> Oh, the next release codename is actually coming from Toy Story 2.
20:24:19 <Vorpal> elliott, hm when did they run out of Toy Story characters?
20:24:23 <Vorpal> or when are they going to maybe
20:24:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: Staging area for things that have yet to hit unstable.
20:24:40 <quintopia> there are plenty of characters left
20:24:59 <quintopia> I would definitely use Debian T-Rex
20:25:07 <pikhq> I wonder what'll happen with Ubuntu.
20:25:14 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, hm when did they run out of Toy Story characters?
20:25:17 <elliott> They'll be fine for years.
20:25:30 <quintopia> they will start over from the beginning of the alphabet iirc
20:25:30 <Gregor> Since they have a release once every two years or so :P
20:25:31 <elliott> Vorpal: when ubuntu run out of alphabet
20:25:47 <elliott> So in something like 2017, OH GOD
20:25:52 <elliott> Zygotic Zebra will come out
20:26:18 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, even I'm amazed at how awesome that was.
20:26:19 <pikhq> And then Amorphous Aardvark. They have yet to use A.
20:26:34 <Vorpal> elliott, well, they will just continue incrementing the unicode code point
20:26:45 <Gregor> What letter did they start on?
20:26:46 <Vorpal> and when that runs out we are probably not using *nix based systems any more
20:26:48 <quintopia> or, more likely, zippy, "CAUSE ITS FAST LOL"
20:26:52 <elliott> They only started the alphabetical thing recently.
20:26:58 <pikhq> Gregor: W, then H, then B, then they went alphabetical.
20:27:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:27:03 <elliott> W, H, B, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N is planned.
20:27:30 <Vorpal> elliott, which one was the first H?
20:27:32 <elliott> So they have A, B and C after 2017.
20:27:36 <pikhq> They reüsed H. Darnit.
20:27:36 <Gregor> OK, so next would be Þ
20:27:38 <Vorpal> the second would be hedgehog
20:27:49 <Vorpal> elliott, was that not the second one?
20:28:47 <Vorpal> elliott, on the other hand, think of a suitable name starting with c
20:28:50 <elliott> Anyway after Cashmere Civet they'll have run out.
20:29:02 <Vorpal> elliott, best I managed was "chaotic camel"
20:29:05 <Gregor> How about Cheshire Cat
20:29:08 <Vorpal> which does not sound very good
20:29:11 <pikhq> And move to Toy Story characters.
20:29:15 <quintopia> there's a whole list of planned future names for ubuntu versions already...put your suggestions there
20:29:21 <Vorpal> Gregor, Cheshire is not an adjective
20:29:34 <Vorpal> elliott, must it be first *two* letters?
20:29:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes it is. "Of or relating to Cheshire."
20:29:58 <oerjan> <elliott> Have rms appear as the main antagonist <-- this made me think of the bathtub monster from Rose is Rose (both eat toes)
20:30:00 <Vorpal> elliott, they need to get aardvark
20:30:29 <Vorpal> elliott, "hardy heron", "karmic koala"?
20:30:32 <pikhq> Gregor: Anthropomorphic Aardvark. For the furries.
20:30:32 <Gregor> elliott: You already said Abalone
20:30:38 <Vorpal> elliott, that is first one letter, not first two
20:30:58 <Gregor> pikhq: It has to be aa
20:31:21 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Code/wl$ grep '^aa' /usr/share/dict/words
20:31:24 <olsner> shouldn't it rather be something like aardvarkomorphic anthrope to refer to furries?
20:31:25 <quintopia> for the pirates fed up with ubuntu
20:31:41 <Vorpal> <elliott> you're right Vorpal <-- of course ;)
20:31:57 <pikhq> Gregor: A'a Aarvdvark?
20:32:36 <elliott> "andalism" -- first line of [[Abalone]]
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20:33:15 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, jaunty was the only one I remember where it is actually first two letters that are the same.
20:33:31 <elliott> Vorpal: But after Cashmere Civet, they've run out of alphabet.
20:33:38 <elliott> So we go to Aa, Ab, ..., Az, ..., Zz
20:33:41 <Gregor> Accidental Acupuncturist
20:33:48 <elliott> Gregor: THAT IS NOT AN ANIMAL
20:33:48 <Gregor> Yes, an acupuncturist is an animal.
20:33:52 <Vorpal> elliott, so they keep incrementing the unicode codepoint I told you!
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20:34:21 <Vorpal> elliott, they need to get something starting with the del char into the dictionary quickly
20:34:47 <pikhq> I can't wait for いたい いぬ (itai inu).
20:34:54 <quintopia> I can't wait til Gnaught Gnu comes out.
20:35:04 <Vorpal> elliott, once they reach the Chinese letters it will be easy
20:35:26 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, which one was I?
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20:36:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I swear they pick intentionally obscure adjectives. Okay, lucid wasn't, but many other ones were
20:36:28 <cpressey> Fucking Falcon, how does that work?
20:36:48 <cpressey> (By the principle of the Multiparadigm clusterfuck, apparently.)
20:37:01 <cpressey> quintopia: haven't checked recently
20:37:02 <fizzie> elliott: Wordnet says: http://p.zem.fi/ab-animals -- okay, so it counts pretty much anything that's alive by any definition, but...
20:37:24 <elliott> Is that the ... result of an abortion?
20:37:46 <fizzie> elliott: Well, http://p.zem.fi/b5og you see.
20:37:49 <Gregor> Accredited Achatellinus
20:37:53 <quintopia> cpressey: you can do it with one hand, while typing
20:38:42 <fizzie> Still, there's two quite viable ab-animals there:
20:38:47 <fizzie> 1. abalone, ear-shell -- (any of various large edible marine gastropods of the genus Haliotis having an ear-shaped shell with pearly interior)
20:38:48 <fizzie> 1. abrocome, chinchilla rat, rat chinchilla -- (ratlike rodent with soft fur and large ears of the Andes)
20:38:51 <Gregor> When do we get to Augmented Australopithecine?
20:38:58 <elliott> fizzie: Already said abalone.
20:39:29 <Gregor> Or are WE the Augmented Australopithecine?
20:39:38 <oerjan> Abortus isn't animal, it's a murdered human! </pope>
20:39:38 <elliott> What # is u in the alphabet?
20:40:13 <Gregor> elliott: A, B, C, D, E, F, G
20:40:24 <elliott> Gregor: Augmented Australopithecine is in about 2039.
20:40:25 <Gregor> elliott: H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P
20:40:27 <coppro> do re mi fa so la ti do
20:40:38 <elliott> M=Math;C=12;f=[];R=[];A='charCodeAt';S='slice';for(P=0;P<96;){k="/SN;__/NK;OL/QN;__/OL;NK4L@@_C4_G@OL4SO@__4QN@OL3NB?_G3_K?OL/QN;__/SK;__4OL@__4LC@_G4LC@_G4_C@_G"[A](P);D="\0\0";for(j=0;k<95&&j<1e4;){v=M.max(-1e4,M.min(1e4,1e6*M.sin(j*M.pow(2,k/C)/695)))/M.exp(j++/5e3);D+=String.fromCharCode(v&255,v>>8&255)}R[P++]=new Audio("data:audio/wav;base64,UklGRgAAAABXQVZFZm10IBAAAAABAAEAwF0AAIC7AAACABAAZGF0YSBO
20:40:39 <elliott> "+btoa(D))}for(e=i=252;i--;)f[i]=i%C&&i<240?(i+1)%C?r=0:'█<br>':'█';t=p=4;function d(c){for(q=p+[13,14,26,25][r%4],i=1;i<99;q+=((i*=2)==8?[9,-37,-9,37]:[1,C,-1,-C])[r%4])if('36cqrtx'[A](t)&i)if(-c){if(f[q])return 1}else f[q]=c}function m(e){Q=[-1,0,1,C][e?e.keyCode-37:3]||0;d(0);p+=Q;r+=!Q;s=d(1);if(s)p-=Q,r-=!Q;d('▒');document.body.innerHTML=f.join('').replace(/0/g,'░');return s}onkeydown=m;o=
20:40:39 <elliott> function(){P=P%96;for(_ in[1,2,3])R[P++].play();if(m()){t=~~(7*M.random()),p=r=4;e=d(1)?1e9:e;for(y=0;y<240;)if(f[S](y,y+=C).join().indexOf('0')<0)f=f[S](0,C).concat(f[S](0,y-C),f[S](y))}setTimeout(o,e*=0.997)};o()
20:40:43 <Gregor> *do re mi fa sol la si do
20:40:57 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ wn animal -treen
20:40:57 <fizzie> Hyponyms of noun animal
20:40:57 <fizzie> Search too large. Narrow search and try again...
20:40:57 <fizzie> (What a silly limited thing.)
20:41:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: javascript
20:41:43 <elliott> see http://js1k.com/demo/730 in firefox
20:42:14 <Gregor> coppro: Just correcting your solfege :P
20:42:24 <fizzie> Have to love the data:audio/wav dynamic audio-synthery.
20:42:27 <coppro> elliott: you pinged me earlier
20:42:43 <oerjan> Gregor: it's ti in some languages
20:42:44 <coppro> 15:08 < elliott> coppro: Get on to fucking that shit, stat.
20:42:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's also computed.
20:42:57 <coppro> 15:08 < elliott> coppro: Get on to fucking that shit, stat.
20:42:57 <elliott> well you are the coprophiliac
20:43:14 <Gregor> oerjan: LOSER LANGUAGES.
20:43:14 <quintopia> elliott: tetris is popular as a programming project precisely because it can be written with so little code
20:43:55 <elliott> quintopia: Oh come on, Tetris with speeding-up and *the original Tetris theme generated in wav* in 1024 bytes is pretty damn impressive.
20:43:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://js1k.com/demo/730
20:44:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh shut up
20:45:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I was thinking they had some awesome procedural generator specially configured to belt out the full theme.
20:45:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT'S AWESOME GO TO HELL
20:45:55 <elliott> Anyway it's approximately the whole theme.
20:46:06 <quintopia> elliott: i'm not hearing the music in firefox, and also, this version doesn't seem to let me hold down a key to move the block a long distance
20:46:07 <elliott> It's enough to sing I Am The Man... to it.
20:46:13 <elliott> quintopia: which Fx version?
20:46:15 * pikhq needs a decent pair of speakers, but is cheap. Dammit.
20:46:27 <elliott> also, i don't think you realise just how little code 1k is
20:46:53 <elliott> I'm on 3.6.10, so, try upgrading.
20:46:58 <Gregor> elliott: Apparently it's in the repos, but since I hadn't updated Hackbot's chroot in roughly all eternity, it's not installed :P
20:47:08 <elliott> Gregor: I thought you said you were gonna source it.
20:47:18 <Gregor> elliott: I was, until I noticed it was in the repo anyway.
20:47:23 <elliott> Gregor: So how's that going
20:47:41 <elliott> I bet it breaks everything.
20:47:50 <Gregor> But *eh*, these things happen.
20:48:09 <Gregor> I've recreated the Hcakiki chroot three times after breaking it horribly by trying to do stupid things.
20:48:13 <Gregor> I can do the same with Hackbot.
20:48:56 <quintopia> also, where is my preview of the next block >:
20:49:47 <Gregor> elliott: Then compile that to <1K of JS.
20:50:42 <Gregor> <EgoBot> I do not like you, elliott.
20:51:04 <Gregor> <EgoBot> I do not like green eggs and ham, either.
20:51:12 <elliott> I do not like them, Ego I am.
20:51:32 <Gregor> <EgoBot> I do not like them on the 'net.
20:51:48 <Gregor> I can't rhyme *shrugs*
20:53:26 <Vorpal> what an unexpected result!
20:53:48 <Vorpal> but I guess it is too lazy to compute the question
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20:54:27 <oerjan> in lazytris the block isn't actually drawn until it hits bottom. you better _pray_ you hit the right buttons.
20:55:13 <Vorpal> oerjan, actually, the blocks doesn't hit the bottom until you lose.
20:55:16 <Gregor> http://codu.org/imgs/rc.png Images I've left floating around codu.org that are totally self-descriptive.
20:55:53 <Gregor> It is the nineties and there is time for JSKlax?
20:56:21 <Vorpal> Gregor, any idea what rc.png actually is. I'm genuinely interested
20:56:28 <Gregor> Not even the foggiest bit of a clue.
20:56:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, to tell the truth it looks pretty random. Which rules out a lot of stuff rc could stand for
20:56:48 <Gregor> Clearly something with poorly-correlated axes.
20:57:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, what about timestamp on file?
20:57:15 <Vorpal> Gregor, maybe you could grep logs
20:57:24 <Vorpal> if ever mentioned on irc
20:57:27 <Gregor> I doubt it was #esoteric-related.
20:57:33 <Gregor> Or otherwise IRC-related
20:57:33 * augur greps gregor's logs
20:57:52 <Gregor> augur: I hope you're using a -E!
20:57:54 <elliott> <Gregor> It is the nineties and there is time for JSKlax? ;; wat
20:59:01 <elliott> oerjan: sequence.repeat$randomIO
21:00:22 <oerjan> try randoms<$>newStdGen instead
21:01:06 <elliott> Prelude Random> g<-newStdGen
21:01:09 <elliott> Prelude Random> randoms g :: [Int]
21:02:29 <pikhq> elliott: Whoever writes copy for the Xubuntu installer should be shot.
21:02:50 <oerjan> elliott: erm did it hang at [ ?
21:02:54 <pikhq> elliott: It's got grammatical and spelling errors.
21:03:12 <pikhq> The one I remember most strong was "linux".
21:03:19 <elliott> pikhq: (Xubuntu doesn't get nearly as much love as (K)ubuntu)
21:04:06 <pikhq> Gregor: What differences does it have from Sid?
21:04:19 <elliott> pikhq: It's sid for people who think that pre-installed KDE is a grand idea.
21:04:26 <elliott> (Well, the LiveCD uses KDE.)
21:04:34 <Gregor> elliott: The XFCE live CD uses XFCE.
21:04:48 <elliott> Meanwhile, sid uses whatever the fuck you install :P
21:05:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, I would be surprised if the xfce livecd used, say, fluxbox
21:05:05 <elliott> There is basically no reason not to just use testing anyway.
21:05:24 <Gregor> elliott: aptosid is more up-to-date than testing, at the cost of being less stable.
21:05:32 <elliott> testing is not exactly out-of-date.
21:05:40 <Gregor> elliott: Depends on the packages.
21:05:55 <Gregor> elliott: Some packages are basically right up to latest, others trail behind.
21:05:55 <pikhq> Testing's usually pretty up-to-date. It only ceases to be even vaguely so when they do a freeze for a new stable.
21:06:10 <Gregor> (Yeah, the freezes are annoying to)
21:06:21 <oerjan> !haskell import System.Random; main = print.take 10.randoms=<<newStdGen
21:06:47 <elliott> main=do{g<-newStdGen;print(randoms g::[Int])}
21:06:51 <Gregor> Yeesh, I'm doing a system upgrade on Codu and NOW everybody's hammering it >_<
21:06:58 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Code/lazytris$ runhaskell lazytris.hs | head -c 50
21:06:58 <elliott> [-7911342775086485719,-3419649560986927097,-704380lazytris.hs: <stdout>: commitAndReleaseBuffer: resource vanished (Broken pipe)
21:07:26 <quintopia> this game is hard: http://js1k.com/demo/823 (my high score after 4 plays is only 11!)
21:07:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not surprised at the broken pipe
21:07:40 <Gregor> quintopia: http://sibeli.us/ <-- this game is hard
21:07:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I meant the integers.
21:07:55 <Vorpal> elliott, they *are* integers
21:08:08 <elliott> Gregor: That game makes you listen to Sibelius, though.
21:08:10 <Vorpal> elliott, so just do abs() or something if that is the issue
21:08:20 <Vorpal> elliott, that is nasty
21:08:37 <Gregor> elliott: s/makes/allows/
21:08:57 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is the goal of the game?
21:09:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Welcome to Sibeli.us! This is a web based version of that insipid game-music genre that's popular lately, with a twist: The music is Sibelius' Finlandia. Sound easy? Feel free to try! Use the keys '1', '2', '3' and '4' or 's', 'w', 'b' and 'p' when an action hits the relevant letter (and music). And have fun!
21:09:24 <elliott> Gregor: It needs to penalise you for pressing swbp when there's nothing there.
21:09:36 <Gregor> elliott: It just doesn't let your score go below 0.
21:09:37 <elliott> Gregor: Doesn't go negative though.
21:09:56 <Vorpal> <quintopia> this game is hard: http://js1k.com/demo/823 (my high score after 4 plays is only 11!)
21:09:59 <elliott> I want to go for minimum possible score!
21:10:04 <Vorpal> what is the goal of that game
21:10:49 <Vorpal> http://sibeli.us/ <-- "meh, flash"
21:10:56 <Vorpal> but then, I'm no sibelius fan
21:11:17 <Gregor> Vorpal: Flash only for audio.
21:11:25 <Gregor> Vorpal: And don't say HTML5.
21:11:30 <Vorpal> Gregor, don't you um need that for the page?
21:11:32 <Gregor> Vorpal: If you say HTML5, I punch you in the face.
21:11:35 <pikhq> Oh, that was the installer for the last LTS version. Why would I want *that*?
21:11:40 <quintopia> Gregor: that game would be ridiculously easy if it were smooth and synced with the music properly
21:11:44 * Gregor punches elliott in the face.
21:11:55 <elliott> Gregor: It's punch-worthy because it works!
21:12:11 <elliott> Or I guess Gregor supports IE.
21:12:21 <quintopia> gregor: no. it would probably work in windows. adobe supports windows...
21:12:28 <Gregor> quintopia: No, it's SHIT in Windows.
21:12:32 <Gregor> quintopia: It's much better everywhere else.
21:13:13 <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor: It's punch-worthy because it works! <-- he thinks it doesn't
21:13:31 <Gregor> It doesn't work for ZEE for different reasons ...
21:13:46 <Vorpal> well, except for zee it works nicely
21:13:54 <Gregor> It doesn't work for Sibeli.us because no implementation communicates time very well.
21:14:05 <elliott> Your mom doesn't communism.
21:14:07 * Vorpal forces elliott to use gopher5
21:14:13 <Gregor> For ZEE HTML5 can't loop properly. Neither can Flash, but it's a modicum better.
21:14:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, why not just use jsmips + proper code to loop! ;)
21:14:50 <Gregor> Vorpal: Because HTML5 doesn't support synth, only feeding it audio files.
21:14:56 <elliott> main=do{g<-newStdGen;let b=randomRs(0,6)g::[Int]}
21:14:59 <elliott> The beginnings of LAZYTRIS
21:15:21 <Gregor> Vorpal: Honestly, if HTML5 Audio had a function to just hand it bits to spit out, that would be ideal.
21:15:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: It can do streams (sometimes), but that's a waste of bandwidth if you're just looping.
21:15:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, with streams you could do it properly server-side
21:16:01 <Vorpal> Gregor, maybe you need to do it locally instead of in the browser then
21:16:07 <Vorpal> Gregor, using sdl or such
21:16:16 <Gregor> Vorpal: The SDL version of ZEE loops beautifully :P
21:16:24 <Gregor> Which is why I sort of don't care that the browser version is crapsiloo.
21:16:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh, you somehow combined sdl + js?
21:16:39 <Gregor> http://codu.org/projects/gjs/
21:17:08 <Gregor> Codu is doing a system upgrade right now, yeeeesh
21:17:51 * Gregor projects hatred at Vorpal
21:18:09 <Gregor> <Gregor> Codu is doing a system upgrade right now, yeeeesh
21:18:11 <olsner> hatred: makes stuff work
21:18:30 <Vorpal> Gregor, I just updated you on the current situation
21:18:39 <cpressey> !run wget http://everything | bzip2
21:18:44 <Gregor> THANK YOU FOR KEEPING ME APPRISED.
21:19:02 <cpressey> `run wget http://everything | bzip2
21:19:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, IT WAS SO LITTLE. NOTHING TO THANK ME FOR.
21:19:26 <oerjan> olsner: Gregor is all about red hats
21:19:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, what js engine do you use?
21:19:45 <olsner> oerjan: ooh, that's clever
21:20:24 <Gregor> As a professional in the field of JavaScript behavior: Screw V8 :P
21:20:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, it is probably faster though
21:20:55 <olsner> oh, V8 is broken? nice :D
21:21:06 <Gregor> Didn't mean for that to be caps.
21:21:18 <Gregor> Vorpal: But since all of my time is spent in SDL, that's irrelevant.
21:21:32 <olsner> [from] whence Screw V8 then?
21:21:32 * elliott wonders if Gregor will bother qualifying his statements about v8
21:22:20 <Gregor> V8 has great performance in a possibly-general-case-but-maybe-not-it's-never-really-been-quantified, and EXTREMELY bad performance in other cases.
21:22:51 <Gregor> With semantically-innocuous changes to JS code, I can make v8 balloon up 30x.
21:23:01 <Gregor> I can't get SpiderMonkey to go more than 4x.
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21:23:16 <olsner> you should write a JS benchmark :D
21:23:26 <Gregor> olsner: See my upcoming PLDI paper (if it's accepted)
21:23:54 <Gregor> Vorpal: http://google.com/search?q=pldi
21:24:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, pldi.net or the sigplan link?
21:24:16 <quintopia> gregor: runs smoother in chromium, but letters are still about a half second ahead of music. got a 362174 somehow
21:24:22 <Gregor> Vorpal: The SIGPLAN link X_X
21:24:31 <quintopia> those fast sections should have the letters moving faster :/
21:24:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, there was also a stanford link
21:24:40 <Gregor> quintopia: A half second? That's mega-screwy, something weird in your audio.
21:24:46 <Gregor> Vorpal: That's just a particular instance of the conference.
21:25:12 <olsner> http://sss.cs.purdue.edu/projects/dynjs/ looks like a good link
21:25:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, ah, sigplan is acm, meaning I should be able to get it through the university proxy if it is acccepted
21:26:19 <elliott> Gregor: You shoulda put up a paper online, changed one wording in one paragraph and then submitted it :P
21:26:52 <Vorpal> elliott, fail indeed :P
21:26:54 <elliott> Is http://sss.cs.purdue.edu/projects/dynjs/ it?
21:27:15 <elliott> Gregor: Is that TeX with Times?
21:27:40 <Vorpal> elliott, slanted, where?
21:27:43 <Gregor> That is LaTeX with SIGPLAN's instituted templates.
21:27:54 <elliott> the text is slanted slightly
21:28:06 <Vorpal> I don't see it. Oh well
21:28:16 <Gregor> elliott: I think your brain is slanted slightly.
21:28:16 <Vorpal> elliott, TeX with Comic Sans would have been worse anyway
21:28:43 <Gregor> Also, at least it's not Word :P
21:28:49 <Vorpal> elliott, my pdf reader does not list times as being embedded
21:29:14 <Vorpal> there is NumbusRomNo9L and such
21:29:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I use qwerty yes :P
21:30:37 <Vorpal> elliott, as long as it isn't nubus I'm happy
21:30:37 <elliott> seriously? Nimbus is just an imitation of Times.
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21:31:09 <Gregor> Comic Serif OH GOD WHY
21:31:17 <elliott> http://www.swiss-miss.com/2008/04/helvetica-serif.html
21:31:18 -!- augur has joined.
21:31:24 <Vorpal> elliott, Comic Antiqua! (spelling?)
21:33:07 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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21:34:37 <Gregor> elliott: I totally lied.
21:34:39 <Gregor> `run /opt/python27/bin/python -c 'print "Hello"'
21:35:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, how did you lie?
21:35:23 <Gregor> Vorpal: I said I was going to just install a newer system Python. But I did not :P
21:35:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, so you compiled from source in the end?
21:35:49 <elliott> Gregor: Now replace the normal python with it :P
21:35:56 <Gregor> elliott: Not gonna happen.
21:36:17 <Gregor> elliott: Because that's part of the system, and since the upgrade went all kerplutz I've decided maybe I just want to leave that as-is.
21:36:37 <Gregor> If you want /usr/bin/python2.7, that can be arranged.
21:36:44 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, put /opt/python27/bin first in the PATH.
21:36:58 <Gregor> Actually, that most certainly can be arranged.
21:37:26 <cpressey> Yeah, I had some fun after moving my system python to 2.7
21:37:56 <cpressey> Just putting a Python 2.7 called 'python' in my ~/bin which is on my path
21:38:17 <cpressey> Suddenly #/usr/env/bin python has EXCITING NEW SEMANTICS
21:39:24 <Gregor> cpressey: Luckily, putting it in this PATH is more OK as it's only used for things within HackEgo :P
21:39:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, new semantics? how so?
21:39:44 <cpressey> Gregor: I'm sorry to hear that. (ok, not really)
21:39:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: Suddenly, it pulls up the python in his ~
21:39:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes that is obvious
21:40:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, I meant, "it isn't like it went to python3"
21:40:10 <Vorpal> so things should just continue to work
21:40:20 <pikhq> Point releases can still break things sometimes.
21:40:24 <cpressey> Vorpal: tell that to ubuntu system tools
21:41:25 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/tmp/hackenv.15489/bin/wl", line 37, in <module> \ q = query(continue_id) \ File "/tmp/hackenv.15489/bin/wl", line 29, in query \ response = urllib2.urlopen(url).read() \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/urllib2.py", line 126, in urlopen \ return _opener.open(url,
21:41:30 <cpressey> we totally need #!/usr/bin/guess_format_and_interpret
21:42:09 <pikhq> We totally need an OS with sufficient metadata that the format of every file can be known.
21:42:21 <pikhq> Of course, I also totally need a pony.
21:42:45 <elliott> `run wl 'sv sill' 2>&1 | tr -d '\n'
21:42:47 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): File "/tmp/hackenv.15552/bin/wl", line 37, in <module> q = query(continue_id) File "/tmp/hackenv.15552/bin/wl", line 29, in query response = urllib2.urlopen(url).read() File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/urllib2.py", line 126, in urlopen return _opener.open(url, data, timeout)AttributeError:
21:42:57 <elliott> `run wl 'sv sill' 2>&1 | tr -d '\n' | tail -c +50
21:43:00 <HackEgo> ckenv.15603/bin/wl", line 37, in <module> q = query(continue_id) File "/tmp/hackenv.15603/bin/wl", line 29, in query response = urllib2.urlopen(url).read() File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/urllib2.py", line 126, in urlopen return _opener.open(url, data, timeout)AttributeError: ProxyHandler instance has no attribute 'open'
21:46:38 <Gregor> DISCOVERY: Browser that supports HTML5 Audio + PCM .wav + data: URLs = do client-side loop unrolling!
21:46:38 <Gregor> (More like OBSERVATION)
21:54:05 <Gregor> To loop oggs in a web browser: 1) download ogg via XHR, 2) decompress ogg with JS code, 3) duplicate decompressed audio a bunch of times, 4) write that into a data: URL as a PCM .wav, 5) load that into HTML5 Audio
21:55:34 <Gregor> It's only too bad you can't stream like that.
21:58:30 <pikhq> elliott: Well, I must say. Xubuntu > Debian when it comes to "just works".
21:58:37 <Gregor> He's a homeless, jobless layabout living off social security and drugs.
21:59:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, do you and him actually hate each other, or is it just a joke?
22:02:14 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: we all hate each other here. especially you.
22:02:38 <oerjan> hope that cleared things up
22:02:56 <Gregor> Fuck you oerjan, we don't hate each other!
22:03:12 <oerjan> ...i hate people who cannot even follow our hate policy properly
22:03:19 <olsner> Gregor: I have now read your paper
22:04:30 <Gregor> olsner: Congratulations on your literacy.
22:04:51 <olsner> thanks :D I'm quite proud of it myself
22:05:19 <oerjan> olsner is an ace at littering
22:05:53 <pikhq> WHAT THE HELL WHY IS FLASH IN XUBUNTU ACTUALLY USING CPU WELL
22:06:01 <pikhq> IT IS NOT RAPING MY CPU
22:06:09 <pikhq> UNLIKE ON REAL HARDWARE
22:06:32 <oerjan> this is virtually unheard of!
22:06:47 <pikhq> It's using like 30% CPU for Youtube. Note: Flash in Gentoo uses like 110% CPU.
22:07:04 -!- augur has joined.
22:09:13 <olsner> java is alright, but surely not *applets*?
22:10:20 <Gregor> Now that we're done hatin' on each other, anybody have an opinion on my crazy JS-data-URL-wtf plan? :P
22:11:36 <pikhq> Gregor: Delicious.
22:12:22 <oerjan> now embed that in MIPS and we're all set
22:13:06 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Idonno, that's why I made up nonsense :P
22:13:15 <Gregor> No one but cpressey is privy to that information.
22:14:32 <oerjan> even cpressey doesn't know, the nsa wipe his memory whenever he leaves and reinstate it when he comes back
22:15:07 <Gregor> oerjan: Though leaving him with an imprint that will lead him to have an inexplicable desire to come back the next day.
22:15:25 <oerjan> well that part was obvious
22:15:51 <olsner> the other cpressey probably thinks he's discussing esoteric knitting patterns all night
22:16:01 <Gregor> The only way you can stop being an ex-anything is by becoming one again ...
22:16:35 <elliott> Gregor: That didn't work to get your ex-wife back now, did it?
22:16:53 <Gregor> elliott: No, I became my wife.
22:17:17 <elliott> Also illegal in 13 states.
22:18:16 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, so do you sit with a sign saying "will simplify for food"?
22:18:48 <oerjan> no no, it's "will make incomprehensible for food"
22:21:53 <cpressey> < Phantom_Hoover> Someone tell me what cpressey actually does.
22:23:06 <olsner> oh, you're a musician?
22:23:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean what he does for a living: well, I know he complained about python in a work-related context. I think he works as a programmer.
22:24:44 <elliott> <elliott> Gregor studies Ph.D.s
22:24:45 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey does Python
22:25:07 <Vorpal> elliott, he studies people with Ph.D.?
22:25:23 <elliott> Vorpal: No, he studies Ph.D.s themselves.
22:25:23 <cpressey> olsner: you haven't heard my MED songs!
22:25:37 <elliott> foetus is a hypercorrection
22:25:54 <Vorpal> elliott, ah. The abstract Ph.D.s are quite tricky to study I heard. Takes a lot of skill.
22:26:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:27:37 <Vorpal> elliott, that is indeed more tangible
22:27:44 <elliott> Someone appreciate this :(
22:27:48 <fizzie> Gregor: With a fast enough Javascript engine, you could have a single <audio> tag playing a long-enough constant-value audio file, and then just use the scripting to modify the volume property for each sample.
22:27:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I tried to figure it out and gave up
22:28:13 <elliott> [[Deja dit (pronounced dé-ja-di) Even though deja dit is French for "already said", it actually is used to describe the strange feeling you get when you're in a situation, and feel like you've been in the exact same situation before and spoken the same words as if you have studied them and just repeated them.]]
22:28:16 <elliott> The literal meaning works :P
22:28:19 <Gregor> fizzie: Also, HTML5 Audio is made of fail, that wouldn't work (in any current browser)
22:28:31 <cpressey> i never ever ever get that feeling
22:28:35 <cpressey> but i get deja vu all the time
22:28:40 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I know what deja vu is
22:28:43 <fizzie> Gregor: You could even record the constant beep from a PC speaker for authentic speaker-style music done that way.
22:29:09 <pikhq> Such a shame HTML5 audio has no API for generating audio.
22:29:20 <Gregor> pikhq: data URLs MIGHT BE IT!
22:29:21 <elliott> Often I get dream dejav u.
22:29:23 <pikhq> Except, of course, generating a data URI at runtime.
22:29:31 <Gregor> However, yes, an actual API would be nice :P
22:29:31 <elliott> As in, as I remember a dream, I swear I've had it before.
22:29:39 <elliott> Gregor: What happens when the <video> runs out?
22:29:43 <elliott> i.e. the unrolled loop finishes
22:29:50 <elliott> i.e. it is replayed all 9045378957389573495 timse
22:29:52 <Gregor> elliott: That's the no-streaming issue.
22:29:56 -!- antivigilante has joined.
22:30:04 <pikhq> Won't work on Internet Explorer, though.
22:30:12 <Gregor> pikhq: It should on IE9
22:30:15 <pikhq> They limit data URIs to 256 kb.
22:30:40 <fizzie> Gregor: There's the mozilla-specific extension for it, https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Introducing_the_Audio_API_Extension -- but that's cheating, of course.
22:30:45 <elliott> Gregor: Can't you just insert an identical <audio>, play it to 1 second (have the first second be silence), and pause it, ready to play when the other one finishes?
22:30:56 <elliott> Or does the API not support that?
22:31:19 <Gregor> elliott: You can, but its timing is garbage.
22:31:41 <Gregor> elliott: Getting the current time is godawfully broken, and there's usually a nondeterministic pause between calling the play function and the sound actually playing.
22:31:42 <elliott> Gregor: How about: Start playing the new one from zero seconds when there's one second left in yours.
22:31:47 <elliott> Then have the first second be silence.
22:31:48 <pikhq> "For security reasons, data URIs are restricted to downloaded resources. Data URIs cannot be used for navigation, for scripting, or to populate frame or iframe elements."
22:31:55 <pikhq> WHY YOU ASSHOLES WHY.
22:31:56 <Gregor> elliott: I have a library that does exactly that.
22:32:07 <elliott> pikhq: Like Xubuntu, huh? :P
22:32:10 <Gregor> elliott: Much better in Flash than in HTML5.
22:32:17 <elliott> Lame @ no data <iframe>s >:D
22:32:25 <elliott> (I have no idea what you'd do with a data: <iframe>.)
22:32:38 <pikhq> elliott: It seems to just work, which is a nice change.
22:33:08 <pikhq> elliott: Unfortunately, its multiarch support sucks, which means I *will* find it not working, and I *will* want to throw things at people after that.
22:33:10 <elliott> pikhq: If your VM is up to it, try Ubuntu proper; it sucks, but it's worth admiring the suck, right?
22:33:38 <elliott> Wow, Xubuntu 10.10's default wallpaper is hideous with those panels.
22:34:03 <elliott> pikhq: 9.10 is nicer: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Xubuntu-karmic.png
22:34:10 <Vorpal> elliott, the hidious thingy
22:34:23 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=xubuntu+10.10&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1366&bih=629
22:34:28 <pikhq> I had to switch to Mist to make it not painful.
22:34:36 <elliott> pikhq: As are the window borders.
22:34:45 <pikhq> But, of course, I'd have to switch to Mist anyways.
22:35:20 <elliott> (Actually I'll probably make a new theme for Kitten, like Grey Mist but... more polished.)
22:35:23 <pikhq> Yeah, yeah, I know.
22:35:45 <elliott> pikhq: Do you have any opinions on SERVICE MANAGEMENT
22:35:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, elliott: no love for themes like clearlooks or similar?
22:36:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=xubuntu+10.10&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1366&bih=629
22:36:05 <elliott> Vorpal: clearlooks is unbearably cluttered.
22:36:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: I don't think you realise how nice the Mist engine is.
22:36:25 <elliott> It was clearly designed by someone who didn't raelise that putting LINES EVERYWHERE does not aid usability.
22:36:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, I really like the light and airy feeling of clearlooks
22:36:40 <elliott> One needs a warped definition of clear to call Clearlooks clear.
22:36:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Mist is "light and airy".
22:36:52 <elliott> It's the exact same colour scheme as Clearlooks.
22:36:55 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, okay, screenshot?
22:37:02 <elliott> Vorpal: System -> Preferences -> Appearance
22:37:30 <Vorpal> elliott, like clearlooks but more blocky in other words
22:37:54 <elliott> How about I stop talking about this and you stop talking about this otherwise I'll have to pstrangle you.
22:38:19 <elliott> pikhq: SERVICE MANAGERS DOOD
22:38:21 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you screenshot one window in gnome?
22:38:41 <elliott> Vorpal: use the Take Screenshot application
22:39:02 <Vorpal> I pressed prtsc, is that a different app? Since there is no option for it there
22:39:40 <elliott> It is the post-screenshot screen of Take Screenshot.
22:39:45 <elliott> Try my advice before questioning it.
22:40:56 <Vorpal> elliott, okay what about calling mist more rectangular then? Would you be okay with that?
22:41:03 <elliott> http://www.ultimatepp.org/L$www$uppweb$chss$en-us.html_12.png Mist
22:41:29 <elliott> It does need a bit of polish.
22:41:36 <Vorpal> I prefer the "rounder" feeling of clearlooks to be honest
22:41:39 <elliott> pikhq: SEEERVIIICE MAAANAAGEEEEERRRRSSS
22:41:55 <pikhq> elliott: MAKE IT WORK MAGICALLY
22:42:00 <elliott> pikhq: THAT IS LESS HELPFUL
22:42:04 <Vorpal> elliott, upstart is actually damn nice
22:42:08 <Vorpal> elliott, did that help?
22:42:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: I like the complete and utter lack of flashiness of Mist, myself.
22:42:15 <Vorpal> I looked at how the init scripts work and such
22:42:17 <elliott> Vorpal: No. Upstart is nowhere near as nice as Kitten's.
22:42:35 <elliott> And the sysv init directory style has always been and will always be an abomination.
22:42:38 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, I give it the benefit of not-having-seen-it
22:42:47 <elliott> As is the stupid set of runlevels.
22:42:50 <Vorpal> elliott, and upstart doesn't use the sysv init style
22:42:57 <elliott> A bunch of numbers ... and S!
22:43:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Besides, service managers don't just initialise.
22:43:25 <Vorpal> elliott, upstart does that :P
22:43:39 <elliott> Vorpal: /etc/init.d isn't even close to what I mean.
22:43:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't mean /etc/init.d either
22:43:56 <Vorpal> which is *completely* different
22:44:10 <Vorpal> elliott, upstart uses /etc/init, sysv uses /etc/init.d
22:44:12 <elliott> That has nothing to do with managing services post-boot.
22:44:19 <elliott> That's a bunch of .conf files.
22:44:34 <pikhq> Which upstart, in fact, does.
22:44:49 <elliott> Yes. But not with /etc/init.
22:44:58 <elliott> unless i'm sorely mistaken
22:45:04 <Vorpal> elliott, you do: stop foo
22:45:12 <Vorpal> and it magically looks at /etc/init/foo
22:45:19 <elliott> (Woot, polluting the global namespace.)
22:45:22 <Vorpal> actually stop is a symlink to initctl
22:45:27 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I dislike that too
22:45:40 <elliott> Anyway it's simply not as advanced as my system.
22:45:45 <elliott> Mine is more like running svscan as process 1.
22:45:59 <pikhq> elliott: "stop foo"
22:46:13 <pikhq> Oh, what vorpal said.
22:46:13 <elliott> <elliott> Yes, I know of initctl.
22:46:19 <elliott> <elliott> Anyway it's simply not as advanced as my system.
22:46:20 <elliott> <elliott> Mine is more like running svscan as process 1.
22:46:38 <elliott> coppro: i'm taking a break to keep my sanity for a bit
22:46:59 <elliott> coppro: ideally, the new update that makes wine work perfectly will come out before I decide to try again :)
22:46:59 <Vorpal> Every five seconds, svscan checks for subdirectories again. If it sees a new subdirectory, it starts a new supervise process. If it sees an old subdirectory where a supervise process has exited, it restarts the supervise process. In the log case it reuses the same pipe so that no data is lost. <-- um, polling? ugh
22:47:13 <Vorpal> inotify and wait() should cover it
22:47:51 <elliott> Shut up about implementation details and respect djb's skills.
22:47:57 <Vorpal> elliott, okay wtf: "svscan starts one supervise process for each subdirectory of the current directory, up to a limit of 1000 subdirectories. "
22:48:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm a djb fan in general
22:48:11 <cpressey> daemontools was way before notification was anything like widespread
22:48:14 <Vorpal> elliott, but not in the specific case of svscan
22:48:28 <Vorpal> but what about the limit of 1000 subdirs?
22:48:28 <pikhq> It should use inotify now, though.
22:48:39 <elliott> djb doesn't really change his software if it works.
22:48:46 <elliott> especially since inotify is *linux specific*
22:48:58 <Vorpal> elliott, true, you want kqueue on *bsd
22:48:59 <elliott> which nobody has pointed out yet
22:49:11 <Vorpal> elliott, there are abstracting libraries
22:49:12 <elliott> Vorpal: i rather think djb's philosophy is to use something that works the same everywhere.
22:49:12 <cpressey> you are vehemently free to write and distribute a patch that makes it use inotify
22:49:20 <pikhq> elliott: Still, *polling*.
22:49:32 <elliott> pikhq: I don't get this pollophobia everyone has.
22:49:41 <elliott> How do you think your mouse works?
22:49:42 <Vorpal> elliott, "bad on laptops"
22:50:01 <pikhq> elliott: Depends on the mouse, actually.
22:50:03 <elliott> Anyway, I never said I would use svscan.
22:50:09 <elliott> pikhq: You have a continuous mouse?
22:50:09 <cpressey> the only cron i've seen that doesn't poll is an experimental one i wrote in erlang for fun
22:50:13 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a difference between waking up a small chipset in your mouse and waking up a bloody power hungry x86 CPU
22:50:21 <pikhq> elliott: A PS/2 mouse generates interrupts, IIRC.
22:50:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, so does USB mice, I checked
22:50:33 <elliott> pikhq: At certain intervals of movement.
22:50:46 <elliott> Anyway, those are implementation details and irrelevant to my description of Kitten's system.
22:50:47 <pikhq> elliott: ... Yeeessss...
22:50:57 <cpressey> (my cron in erlang (crone) computed the time to the next event due and slept exactly that much :)
22:51:03 <elliott> pikhq: Your mouse polls the mechanics inside...
22:51:22 <Vorpal> elliott, again: <Vorpal> elliott, there is a difference between waking up a small chipset in your mouse and waking up a bloody power hungry x86 CPU
22:51:24 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, you get polling from the single-purpose CPU. Hooray.
22:51:46 <pikhq> elliott: The one that doesn't even have power control.
22:52:04 <elliott> I'm not saying it should poll.
22:52:12 <elliott> I'm just saying that polling every five seconds isn't the worst damn thing a program can do.
22:52:20 <Vorpal> true, it could busy loop
22:52:21 <elliott> Especially if there was no other alternative at the time.
22:52:26 <Vorpal> (but that would be absurd)
22:52:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: Windows 95 does.
22:52:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, okay well so did DOS
22:56:20 <cpressey> i am quite interested in asynchronous (in the sense of clockless) processors, but they have their share of downsides
22:56:42 <elliott> pikhq: Question: why do all package description formats suck?
22:56:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, iirc ais523 is somewhat of an expert on those
22:57:10 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, as least having lectured about such things unless I completely misremember
22:57:16 <Vorpal> expert may be stretching it a bit
22:57:43 <Vorpal> cpressey, and I find them interesting too
22:58:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, but implementing anything like a pipeline in them seems near impossible
22:58:31 <Vorpal> (amongst other issues)
22:58:49 <cpressey> implementing all pipeline-like circuits in them is impossible
22:59:06 <cpressey> (i don't know that. i am just talking.)
22:59:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, don't know about impossible, very hard though
23:00:21 <cpressey> well, pipelines assume instructions, instructions assume a processor, a processor assumes a clock -- what we have here is a mismatch of expectations
23:01:01 <cpressey> if you go clockless you probably want to get away from all the stuff we've developed under the clocked model
23:01:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, you need some way to control the processor though, be it instructions or something else
23:01:27 <elliott> cpressey: Infinitely Long Instruction Word
23:01:35 <Vorpal> (otherwise it is bloodly useless)
23:02:01 <Vorpal> elliott, hm ILIW does have a certain ring to it
23:02:47 <cpressey> Vorpal: you "control" it by configuring it how to react
23:03:03 <Vorpal> cpressey, so an advanced FPGA basically?
23:03:06 <elliott> cpressey: event-based processor, i approve
23:04:24 <elliott> pikhq: Do you want to hear my crazy plan for integrating package management and configuration management? -- also because what?
23:04:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, needs to the self-programmable of course
23:04:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, never seen (or heard of) a self-programmable FPGA. I wonder why not
23:05:22 <elliott> > I am taking a holiday next week. For that time, I think cvs will be
23:05:30 <elliott> -- Theo de Raadt, August 2002
23:05:40 <cpressey> Vorpal: i think i've seen something similar to an FPGA but where the gates are set with static RAM -- that would be the basic idea. expensive to do densely, though...
23:05:45 <elliott> > I am locking all the trees until the development community decides
23:05:45 <elliott> > how future releases will be done.
23:05:49 <elliott> -- Theo de Raadt, August 2010
23:06:05 <elliott> > FUCKING DEVELOPERS WHY DO THEY CHANGE MY OPERATING SYSTEM *CRY*
23:06:12 <elliott> -- Theo de Raadt, internal monologue
23:06:39 <Vorpal> cpressey, expensive indeed
23:06:51 <cpressey> i haz the keez to de treez and i LOCKS DEM
23:06:56 <elliott> Note to self: Don't use OpenBSD for anything.
23:07:12 <cpressey> "Best to gaze askance, or use a mirror"
23:07:21 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah freebsd picked up the useful bits, such as pf
23:07:27 <pikhq> elliott: Jeeze, it's like he *wants* a fork.
23:07:40 <elliott> cpressey: For now we see in a mirror darkly!
23:08:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Well. I don't much like FreeBSD myself.
23:08:27 <elliott> cpressey basically summed it up with "the Linux of the BSDs" :)
23:08:42 <elliott> NetBSD kernel + Kitten pkg(1)! wooooo
23:08:44 <pikhq> Ports kinda sucks.
23:08:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it has however two excellent things: pf and the best network config ever
23:08:49 <elliott> i forget the historical /sbin manpage section
23:09:15 <elliott> pikhq: who would fork openbsd though
23:09:16 <Vorpal> I believe some sbin commands are (8) on linux
23:09:23 <elliott> it's been clear for a while that their security is basically just bluffing
23:09:35 <elliott> and the other BSDs should have basically the same
23:10:05 <Vorpal> elliott, that is fairly new, so not really historical at al
23:10:13 <cpressey> elliott: they all kind of steal from each other anyway, so the rivalries between them look silly
23:10:18 <cpressey> maybe that accts for the drama
23:10:29 <elliott> Five years without a remote hole in the default install!
23:10:30 <elliott> One remote hole in the default install, in nearly 6 years!
23:10:32 <elliott> Only two remote holes in the default install, in a heck of a long time!
23:10:38 <elliott> ...too bad the default install is useless!
23:11:33 <elliott> pikhq: I GUESS YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW ABOUT PKG(8) ;___;
23:11:50 <Vorpal> elliott, pf is a nice firewall however, easier to use than netfilter by far
23:12:17 <elliott> http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-announce/2010/09/13/msg000110.html
23:12:19 <pikhq> elliott: Well, they do have a large number of things that actually make it more secure... Most of which are now in other *NIX, but hey.
23:12:19 <elliott> Introducing NPF, NetBSD's new packet filter
23:12:21 <Vorpal> elliott, and is the network config anything like rc.conf of freebesd?
23:12:45 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:12:47 <pikhq> I don't think anybody's done anything similar to their X sandboxing, though.
23:12:53 <elliott> "NPF is the third packet filter in NetBSD, after IP Filter and PF."
23:13:20 <elliott> The issue with NetBSD is that the default "distribution" is a bit out of date.
23:13:29 <elliott> iirc their X.Org was about three years old.
23:13:43 <elliott> that's why you use Kitten :)
23:14:32 <elliott> do the other BSDs have NetBSD's nice driver architecture?
23:14:42 <elliott> where the meat of the driver code is separated from platform-specific stuff
23:14:53 <elliott> so you can use the same hardware on different architectures and buses with minimal to no porting
23:15:03 <pikhq> No, that's pretty exclusive to NetBSD.
23:15:09 <elliott> see, NetBSD! it's awesome!
23:15:35 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:15:44 <pikhq> It's such a shame you won't be able to get the (irritating) binary drivers for 3D cards working there, though.
23:16:01 <elliott> "This package provides the oficial NVIDIA graphic driver for
23:16:07 <elliott> God knows if it's any good.
23:16:53 <elliott> "Quentin Garnier has made a loadable kernel module (LKM) version of the NVidia drivers on NetBSD. This release is very preliminary, rough and mostly meant to test the installation procedure. You will need a NetBSD-current system but the code itself should be quite backward compatible with some caveats. For example, you need 'options KVM86' in your kernel config. Known working hardware includes RIVA TNT
23:16:53 <elliott> 2 Model 64 (PCI), GeForce2 MX/MX 400, Vanta(AGP) and more!"
23:17:08 <elliott> pikhq: you can use nouveau right?
23:17:10 <pikhq> Actually, you could probably port it. How Nvidia rolls is that they've got a binary blob that's *OS independent*, and a stub to abstract the kernel.
23:17:19 <pikhq> elliott: I use AMD ATM.
23:17:33 <elliott> pikhq: well ati opened their specs recently :D
23:17:34 <pikhq> Which... Actually sucks ass on Linux.
23:17:51 <elliott> the open source one is too, but... sometimes actually less so
23:17:56 <pikhq> radeon is a bit worse ATM.
23:18:29 <elliott> pikhq: You could always run the driver in a VM! Wait, what?
23:18:54 <elliott> ...The Linux emulation in the BSDs is amazing, though.
23:19:34 <pikhq> And it'd be even better if you had multi-arch working right. :)
23:19:34 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html -> "Ferret" -> http://www.gnuferret.org/ -> LOL SQUATTED
23:19:50 <elliott> install linux debian on bsd :D
23:20:12 <pikhq> elliott: Not without a chroot.
23:20:21 <pikhq> Well. Or complete insanity.
23:20:40 <elliott> :( NetBSD doesn't have FreeBSD jails.
23:20:40 <Vorpal> elliott, where/when will kitten be available?
23:21:04 <pikhq> It does run as a Xen Dom0, though.
23:21:13 <Vorpal> elliott, those jails are kind of shitty anyway when it comes to network config
23:21:15 <elliott> Vorpal: http://kitten.st/ or something of that nature, and as soon as I get the time. Half-term is coming up, so that'll be a week of hackery if all goes well.
23:21:25 <elliott> Yeah, but the jails were the basis of my VPS hosting strategy!
23:21:34 <pikhq> And apparently its IO routines are sufficiently good that guests sometimes *run faster as a DomU than native*.
23:22:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, sounds like it's native IO routines are rather bad
23:22:26 <elliott> you do realise that Xen can run other OSes?
23:22:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, NetBSD as a Dom0 makes *other* DomUs run faster than native.
23:22:30 <elliott> the guest may be linux in that case
23:22:34 <elliott> pikhq: I wish you could get BFS for NetBSd :)
23:22:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, that explains things
23:22:56 <elliott> pikhq: Speaking of BFS, I'll probably have tweaks in my X.org distribution that gives it ridiculous scheduler priority.
23:23:01 <elliott> Like BFS' recommended configuration has.
23:23:34 <pikhq> cheater: I'm pretty sure NetBSD's scheduler is better-designed than Linux's.
23:23:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, c is nowhere near e on qwerty, what layout?
23:23:58 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, awesome. NetBSD doesn't *just* have Linux emulation.
23:24:20 <Vorpal> elliott, writing a package manager would take more time than "one week of hackery"
23:24:23 <pikhq> elliott: It emulates FreeBSD, Darwin, Solaris, SunOS 4, *and* Linux system calls.
23:24:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I never said it'd be ready then.
23:24:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Besides, a simple package manager can be done very quickly.
23:24:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, not any other system?
23:24:53 <elliott> <Vorpal> oh the brain sched?
23:25:03 <elliott> Vorpal: The *Linux emulation*-alike.
23:25:05 <elliott> Vorpal: That means: native.
23:25:15 <elliott> Just syscall implementations.
23:25:22 <elliott> This is why Quake II, for instance, works perfectly on NetBSD.
23:25:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, Why not Tru64 !? It is mission critical for me!
23:25:31 <elliott> Because it just... Has implementations of the Linux syscalls.
23:25:45 <Vorpal> elliott, also I know what it means
23:25:50 <pikhq> It supports different ones for different CPU architectures.
23:25:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:25:56 <Vorpal> elliott, and it means "some stuff works, but others don't"
23:26:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Meh. Enough works.
23:26:08 <Vorpal> elliott, X would not for example
23:26:14 <elliott> pikhq: Just say that you want me to tell you how pkg(8) does stuff and we can get it over with :P
23:26:16 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, it's actually "complete up to a certain version".
23:26:18 <elliott> Vorpal: X is available on NetBSD.
23:26:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you want to hear my pkg(8) chatter or should I /msg it to pikhq?
23:26:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm sure it doesn't emulate stuff like /proc/mtrr or such
23:26:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: I believe they recently switched the syscall implementation from 2.4 emulation to 2.6 emulation.
23:26:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm okay with it
23:27:14 <pikhq> The x86 list appears to be: BSDI, FreeBSD, Interactive UNIX, SCO Unix, SCO Xenix, Linux, and Solaris.
23:27:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, syscalls alone does not make linux
23:27:30 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, so, packages. People like to think a package is one bit of software! THESE PEOPLE ARE NAZIS.
23:27:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, there is the file system hierarchy
23:27:51 <elliott> Vorpal: QUIT INTERRUPTING THE GENIUS
23:27:55 -!- antivigilante has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat).
23:27:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, /proc /sys and /dev look different
23:28:11 <Vorpal> elliott, *implements timesharing of #esoteric*
23:28:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which it supports by having an overlay of the filesystem so things look right.
23:28:32 <elliott> pikhq: Packages, right! A package can be one piece of software. But who says it can't handle system configuration too??
23:28:33 -!- antivigilante has joined.
23:28:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, fun, but some stuff would mean poking hardware, /proc/mtrr comes to mind again
23:28:55 <elliott> pikhq: FOR INSTANCE. There is no reason you can't have a package that implements, say, some specific configuration set for a piece of software.
23:29:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, and /dev/mem for doing stuff like messing with pci config space
23:29:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: ... Okay, and? That doesn't exactly prevent them from *implementing* that.
23:30:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, could be tricky preventing stuff acting up though
23:30:11 <elliott> pikhq: But then, consider this configuration *schema* (think axiom schemas, e.g. of ZFC): "Make the default window manager [WM]." As an example.
23:30:23 <elliott> pikhq: Do you want a custom package for every window manager? Of course not! That's ludicrous.
23:30:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway, what about 3D support? Would nwn for linux run well under netbsd
23:30:41 <elliott> pikhq: Of course, you have an abstract x-window-manager package that all the WMs provide.
23:30:55 <elliott> pikhq: x-window-manager requires that the WMs provide, say, a start-executable line.
23:31:05 <elliott> dwm's start executable would be "dwm"
23:31:18 <elliott> pikhq: Then you have a "metapackage" called default-wm.
23:31:34 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds like virtual packages with a few extensions so far?
23:31:36 <elliott> default-wm is a set of packages, "default-wm X", for every WM X.
23:31:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: The 3D rendering would be done via X. And X has 3D support.
23:31:42 <elliott> It may be "default-wm --wm=X". Whatever. That's not important.
23:31:59 <elliott> pikhq: So, default-wm's install script writes X's start-executable plus other stuff to the right file, and whatnot.
23:32:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes obviously it would be done that way, the question was how well the thing would work. Stuff like ALSA and so on
23:32:18 <elliott> Or 'default-wm jwm', whatever.
23:32:23 <pikhq> elliott: So, what, basically metapackages can take options?
23:32:34 <elliott> pikhq: Pretty much. Yes. And every combination of options constitutes one package.
23:32:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, since it uses ALSA directly iirc, not OSS
23:32:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:33:04 <elliott> pikhq: And since we have a more extensive "provides x-window-manager" and other generic packages systems, that can require certain relevant properties to exist, we can write metapackages like this for many system configurations.
23:33:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: ALSA probably doesn't work. But, then, ALSA doesn't necessarily work on Linux.
23:33:21 <elliott> pikhq: You can imagine a sans-font metapackage.
23:33:24 -!- augur has joined.
23:33:33 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and "default-wm X" would conflict with all other "default-wm Y"s.
23:33:44 <pikhq> elliott: Of course.
23:33:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, a bit unplayable then
23:33:48 <elliott> Whereas, imagine if you didn't even have a sans-font package, but a generic-font package.
23:33:53 <elliott> generic-font sans 'DejaVu Sans'
23:34:05 <elliott> generic-font X A would conflict with all other generic-font X Bs.
23:34:13 <elliott> But generic-font X A would not conflict with any generic-font Y Bs.
23:34:20 <elliott> Because "generic-font sans foo" and "generic-font sans bar" obviously conflict.
23:34:28 <elliott> But "generic-font sans foo" and "generic-font serif bar" don't.
23:34:33 -!- yorick has quit (Quit: Poef! Going to Rome, see you in 8-9 days.).
23:34:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, also I never had problems with alsa on any of my computers. (VIA on board, Intel HD Audio, Intel <pre HD thingy I forgot the name of>, SB Live! 5.1)
23:34:42 <elliott> pikhq: And of course, the package can contain as much logic as it needs to make this all work.
23:34:50 <elliott> pikhq: Or perhaps even a gcc package.
23:34:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, in all cases ALSA worked perfectly after perhaps adjusting some mixer levels
23:34:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: The point is that ALSA is *entirely optional* on Linux.
23:35:01 <elliott> pikhq: With "host" and "target" options.
23:35:06 <elliott> pikhq: One package for every cross-compiler.
23:35:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, only in theory, not in practise
23:35:15 <elliott> pikhq: But all in one metapackage.
23:35:23 <elliott> You have "cross-gcc x86 arm" installed.
23:35:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's one of two possible kernel-level sound systems.
23:35:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, there is OSSv4, but...
23:35:29 <elliott> But there's only one package behind it all, "cross-gcc".
23:35:36 <elliott> pikhq: Voila, cross-compilation is suddenly sane!
23:35:43 <pikhq> Hrm. Wait. ALSA's userspace stuff can be told to output to OSS, can't it? Victory!
23:35:56 <pikhq> elliott: Beautiful.
23:36:07 <elliott> And OSSv4 has its own ALSA-emulation library that basically-works most of the time.
23:36:15 <elliott> But it's easiest just to configure ALSA itself, yes.
23:36:26 <pikhq> elliott: Though you'd want cross-gcc i686-netbsd-kitten arm-netbsd-kitten
23:36:48 <elliott> cross-gcc --host=i686-netbsd-kitten --target=arm-netbsd-kitten.
23:36:55 <elliott> HOST is just what format the resulting gcc is, right?
23:37:03 <elliott> Don't need a specific option for it.
23:37:07 <elliott> That's already in the package manager.
23:37:19 <pikhq> elliott: Canadian cross.
23:37:39 <elliott> pikhq: That's where you compile a compiler for Z whose architecture is Y, on an X system, right?
23:37:54 <elliott> pikhq: Here's a Canadian cross for you:
23:37:54 <pikhq> You could support *Canadian* cross correctly. :)
23:38:17 <elliott> # pkg ins gcc-cross --arch=x86 --host=ppc-... --target=arm-...
23:38:25 <elliott> pikhq: (in --arch, "foo" is shorthand for "foo-netbsd-kitten")
23:38:29 <elliott> Or whatever the triple is.
23:38:34 <elliott> pikhq: Although do I have to say i686?
23:38:38 <elliott> I want a name for generic x86, dammit!
23:38:46 <elliott> And I refuse to play GNU's evil game!
23:38:54 <pikhq> elliott: Sorry, but i386, i486, i586, and i686 are different ABIs.
23:39:06 <olsner> hmm, of everything supports cross-compilation, then --arch=x would map to --host= rather than --build=
23:39:06 <elliott> YOUR MOM'S A DIFFERENT ABI
23:39:11 <elliott> pikhq: What's the triple element for x86-64?
23:39:16 <elliott> Please don't say x86_64 with an underscore.
23:39:29 <elliott> # pkg ins gcc-cross --arch=x86 --build=ppc-... --target=arm-...
23:39:32 <elliott> --arch being part of the package manager.
23:39:40 <elliott> pikhq: BUT I HATE THE UNDERSCORE :'(
23:39:47 <elliott> # pkg ins gcc-cross --arch=i686 --host=ppc-... --target=arm-...
23:39:58 <elliott> That installs the package "gcc-cross --arch=i686 --host=ppc-... --target=arm-...".
23:40:09 <elliott> Would install the package "gcc --arch=i686".
23:40:23 <elliott> pikhq: Technically I could consider all gccs cross-compilers, but I don't think gcc's build system agrees.
23:40:31 <elliott> Would install the package "gcc --arch=x86_64-netbsd-kitten".
23:40:34 <elliott> Assuming you're on x86-64.
23:40:37 <elliott> Whatever. You get the idea.
23:40:44 <pikhq> elliott: It only almost agrees.
23:41:10 <elliott> pikhq: You know, Go's solution to this is so much better.
23:41:23 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:41:23 <elliott> pikhq: It uses the Plan 9 solution: All compilers are just regular programs that build on whatever architecture you want.
23:41:34 <elliott> They start with a number or letter denoting the architecture, followed by the one-letter program name.
23:41:41 <elliott> e.g. l for linker, c for C compiler, g for Go.
23:41:48 <elliott> pikhq: And so... you just... compile them.
23:41:51 <olsner> how do you select which gcc to use on a multiarch installation? can you choose which one to use of the x86-to-x86_64 cross compiler or the x86_64 non-cross compiler?
23:42:14 <elliott> olsner: the x86-to-x86_64 one is an x86 binary that compiles to x86_64 code, right?
23:42:37 <elliott> It'd be in /arch/i686-netbsd-kitten/bin/x86_64-netbsd-kitten-gcc.
23:42:40 <elliott> Or does the gcc part come first?
23:42:41 <olsner> I suppose it could even be arm-to-x86_64 running in qemu, if this is done right
23:43:02 <olsner> I mean, can you tell the package manager to do it?
23:43:03 <elliott> Although, it'd be *-netbsd or *-newlib really, right?
23:43:12 <elliott> olsner: oh, you mean, what to compile a package with?
23:43:38 <elliott> --arch=foo will just use a native compiler targeting foo if it can get away with it, i.e. /bin/foo-gcc.
23:43:42 <pikhq> olsner: Depends on the path; the prefix is only based on what the ABI tuple is.
23:43:57 <elliott> I guess you could do --cc=/arch/i686-netbsd-kitten/bin/...
23:44:13 <pikhq> elliott: What, is /bin/ a symlink to the native arch's bin?
23:44:21 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what's with elliott's new nick
23:44:29 <elliott> pikhq: I'm pretty sure not. Because I'm not *that* crazy about multilib.
23:44:37 <elliott> Sure, it's nice, but I refuse to design an OS around it.
23:44:42 <elliott> pikhq: Basically, you'll never see /arch/NATIVE.
23:44:50 <elliott> pikhq: /arch/NATIVE may be a symlink to /.
23:44:52 <pikhq> elliott: But then you'd need different binary packages for native or non-native installs.
23:44:57 <catseye> Why is it... n/m I'll google
23:45:08 <pikhq> elliott: But programs aren't.
23:45:15 <pikhq> elliott: They *really truly do hardcode paths*.
23:45:22 <olsner> well, let's say the 64-bit compiler is faster, then you'd want to use a 64-bit-hosted compiler for both 32-bit and 64-bit builds
23:45:24 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, *binary* packages.
23:45:34 <elliott> pikhq: Right, well, if they hardcode paths, that's a critical bug and we patch it.
23:45:43 <elliott> pikhq: Or maybe I just make the goddamn thing source-based.
23:45:49 <pikhq> elliott: This is very hard to root out sometimes.
23:45:55 <elliott> pikhq: Or maybe I just refuse to let people use such stupid programs.
23:46:03 <pikhq> Making /arch/NATIVE a symlink to / should fix it.
23:46:18 <elliott> But I won't tell the programs they're in /arch/NATIVE, that's ridiculous.
23:46:30 <elliott> pikhq: I like multilib, right? I just don't want to structure everything around it.
23:46:39 <pikhq> They will have to think they're in /arch/NATIVE or else things break.
23:46:48 <elliott> pikhq: Fine: Broken programs think they're in /arch/NATIVE.
23:46:49 <pikhq> ... Actually, the first thing to break is dynamic linking.
23:46:57 <pikhq> The path to the dynamic linker is hardcoded.
23:47:06 <catseye> "This is called a `Canadian Cross' because at the time a name was needed, Canada had three national parties. "
23:47:22 <elliott> pikhq: I'm going to commit suicide now.
23:47:36 <Sgeo> Radeon HD 4200
23:47:43 <elliott> pikhq: I think I've just tipped over the edge to "let's just have a tool to set up a chroot".
23:47:54 <pikhq> elliott: NO STOP IT THATS EVEN WORSE
23:48:16 <catseye> elliott: you need to stick the adjective "one-button" in there somewhere
23:48:45 <pikhq> elliott: With multilib set up right, programs can depend on binaries of *any* architecture but libraries of the same architecture, for one.
23:48:55 <olsner> hmm, on a multiarch system you could do a canadian cross where the compiler that compiles for the "build" ABI is actually a cross compiler... another level of cross compilation :)
23:49:07 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, I've tipped over to something else.
23:49:09 <pikhq> Say, some freakish x86-only emulator frontend.
23:49:22 <elliott> pikhq: "Just fucking have different binary packages for native and non-native because otherwise I'll end up drinking myself to death".
23:49:23 <Sgeo> Portal should work with that right?
23:49:49 <pikhq> elliott: That's somewhat nasty. Buuut not hard to do at all.
23:49:52 <elliott> pikhq: OR, maybe, make all non-native things source-only
23:50:03 <elliott> (source packages will be trivial to install. Like "same command as usual" trivial.)
23:50:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:50:32 <elliott> pikhq: That also stops me having to buy 1,000,000 TB of disk space as my supported platforms increase and I have to compile for every combination of them.
23:51:00 <pikhq> elliott: Well, it'd be pretty easy to just make the non-native binaries if you already have the packaging configuration set up.
23:51:09 <pikhq> pkg build --native foo;pkg build --non-native foo
23:51:30 <elliott> pikhq: But now imagine I have 10 supported platforms.
23:51:35 <elliott> pikhq: Every package gets compiled 11 times.
23:51:47 <elliott> Every package-for-architecture.
23:51:54 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, I might just do that.
23:52:15 <elliott> With 10 supported platforms, and separate non-/native packages, that's 20 compilations of each package.
23:52:19 <elliott> Of which 10 are basically identical.
23:52:33 <elliott> pikhq: So I *might just say* that any non-native package on a system is source-based.
23:52:41 <Sgeo> WHY DOES AMD'S SITE TRY TO DENY THE EXISTENCE OF 4200????
23:52:44 <Sgeo> I WANT DRIVERS
23:52:50 <olsner> maybe you can delta-encode the non-native version cleverly
23:52:55 <elliott> Want 64-bit foo on 64-bit? Sure. 32-bit on 32-bit? Sure. 32-bit on 64-bit? Sure, but it'll install slowly.
23:52:59 <pikhq> elliott: Hrm. Another problem. I think you'd actually need a *native* install of each and every architecture to build these things if you distinguish between native and non-native.
23:53:06 <olsner> or at least share all the files that weren't dependent on installation location
23:53:07 <elliott> olsner: true, i could store it as a diff -- but now this is just getting insane
23:53:25 <elliott> pikhq: But at the same time I don't want to have everything thinking they're in /arch/FOO!
23:53:53 <pikhq> Whereas if you have no such distinction, you can just have your build system have all the cross-compilers.
23:54:20 <elliott> pikhq: Sure is a good thing I have weeks to think about this.
23:54:22 <pikhq> ... And, in case a build system tries to run native programs, the relevant qemu.
23:54:23 <elliott> Right now I just want to punch everyone.
23:54:34 <elliott> pikhq: Come to think of it.
23:54:47 <elliott> If there's a port for a system, it better bloody well be installed on at least one system that can fucking build packages.
23:54:53 <elliott> I don't want to support systems with three users.
23:55:12 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, but you almost certainly want your packages to be built on a reasonably beefy system.
23:55:19 <pikhq> Rather than, say, a freaking ARM phone.
23:55:33 <olsner> beefy system with relevant qemu's :)
23:55:34 <catseye> my build farm is *five* ARM phones
23:55:50 <elliott> pikhq: I'd just like to know that the actual architectures I'm likely to support are i686 and x86_64. :P
23:56:35 <pikhq> elliott: Sooo, you want to make it hard to support embedded architectures? Okay, you suck more than Debian now. Kthx.
23:56:58 <elliott> pikhq: No no no I totally will support them in the sense that uh
23:57:06 <elliott> pikhq: I'm just saying that I'm not going to distribute LiveCDs for ARM
23:57:42 <pikhq> But you are going to have a very painful build experience.
23:57:59 <elliott> pikhq: I need to figure out how to do this :P
23:58:03 <catseye> i like the feeling of freedom you get driving a bus
23:58:14 <elliott> `addquote <catseye> i like the feeling of freedom you get driving a bus
23:58:21 <olsner> aaah, catseye is a bus driver
23:59:13 <HackEgo> 239|<catseye> i like the feeling of freedom you get driving a bus
23:59:25 <elliott> pikhq: Okay but seriously you're in charge of telling me how to do multilib.
00:00:05 <elliott> pikhq: I propose that we now talk about the services manager to stop us both going mad and to let me blab about Kitten more.
00:00:44 <elliott> pikhq: Okay so... now I have to serialise my damn thoughts
00:01:28 <elliott> pikhq: You know where you pass the runlevel to init?
00:01:30 <elliott> In the kernel command line.
00:01:41 * Sgeo goes to install Portal
00:02:47 <elliott> Clearly pikhq has no idea.
00:03:25 <elliott> Let us kill pikhq, olsner!
00:05:22 <elliott> I think pikhq's IRC client is so lagged that his reply isn't getting through because it's running under 10 QEMUs as part of his multilib torture test.
00:08:52 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: You know where you pass the runlevel to init?
00:08:52 <elliott> <elliott> In the kernel command line.
00:08:57 <elliott> Let's see if he's remembered!
00:09:54 <Gregor> I appear to be writing a wind quintet for some reason.
00:09:57 <elliott> pikhq: So, yes, clearly you do.
00:10:16 <elliott> pikhq: Well, guess what? The service manager reappropriates the init argument for something else similar to runlevels but NOT. Isn't that AMAZING
00:11:15 <elliott> pikhq: So, services, right? They are concrete things -- like a specific httpd or mail server -- but they can also be more abstract things.
00:11:33 <elliott> pikhq: You can imagine a "consoles" service which is merely a dependency on eight gettys.
00:11:46 <elliott> (Getty would be a metaservice, taking the tty as an argument. Seeing a pattern here?)
00:11:48 <Gregor> I need to put range notes on my keyboard >_>
00:11:55 <Gregor> "The bassoon does not go below this Bb"
00:12:09 <elliott> pikhq: So, for instance, imagine a service "single-user", that depends on everything required to have the system in a single-user state.
00:12:22 <elliott> pikhq: Then "cli", which would be a full, command-line system.
00:12:32 <elliott> pikhq: Then "gui", which would start your login manager or whatever else you want.
00:12:41 <elliott> pikhq: The argument to "init" -- actually the service manager -- is just *a service name*.
00:12:54 <elliott> Give the kernel "gui", you get a GUI system. "cli", CLI. "single-user", guess.
00:12:56 <pikhq> elliott: Or list thereof?
00:13:10 <elliott> (But you're probably better off making your own service depending on that list.)
00:13:27 <elliott> pikhq: And then, of course, it just starts that, which means starting all its dependencies concurrently, and then running its start script.
00:13:44 <elliott> pikhq: It orders the total list of dependencies so that everything required is started up in the order it needs to be, as parallel as possible.
00:13:48 <pikhq> I'm thinking stuff like random need to start with a certain service just once. Granted, not likely to come up, but hey, you never know.
00:13:55 <elliott> This applies even when you use ctl(8) to start and stop things after-the-fact.
00:14:48 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E8MJK4nlek what
00:14:59 <elliott> "And I know... you're Saddam Hussein's... GRAND SON."
00:15:35 <elliott> I am pretty sure this is a joke.
00:16:05 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, services would generally have more than just start/stop/restart/reload.
00:16:14 <elliott> pikhq: Because... basically every action you might want to do should be a service action.
00:16:35 <elliott> pikhq: Anything ending in "ctl" or anything done by a signal should be an action.
00:16:53 <elliott> pikhq: I'm almost crazy enough to think that the package manager and service manager could be merged.
00:17:00 <elliott> A package representing "this service is running".
00:17:04 <elliott> Almost crazy enough. Not quite.
00:18:47 <elliott> pikhq: You may now suggest things you want in the service manager.
00:19:25 <elliott> pikhq: Oh yeah, and the service files would be files with actual syntax, not shell scripts made to do awful, awful things.
00:19:48 <elliott> pikhq: Sure, you'll probably have shell scripts in the actions, but that doesn't mean the service has to be one.
00:20:35 <elliott> pikhq: Probably the structure will be /sv/foo/{some-name-signifying-that-it's-the-main-config-file,start,stop,some-action}
00:20:44 <elliott> (Why have a top-level directory? Why not?)
00:22:54 <Sgeo> http://www.thelocal.de/national/20101013-30455.html
00:23:03 <Sgeo> Proof that it isn't just the US that's insane
00:23:46 <elliott> "It's alright, Germany does it do!"
00:23:54 <elliott> I imagine far more than 1/4 of Americans are xenophobic.
00:24:14 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
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00:25:03 <pikhq> elliott: Republican party.
00:25:37 <Sgeo> There may be some Republicans who are Republicans due to fiscal beliefs
00:25:42 <Sgeo> My dad comes to mind
00:25:59 <elliott> Right. Your dad is always a paragon of reasonability, you've certainly shown that...
00:26:51 -!- wareya has joined.
00:26:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: Problem being, the Republicans have the following fiscal beliefs: SPEND MONEY. CUT TAXES. DO LINES OFF A HOOKER'S ASS.
00:27:19 <elliott> *DO LINES OFF A GAY MAN'S ASS IN A BATHROOM. DECRY HOMOSEXUALITY.
00:27:29 <oerjan> listen to pikhq, he is a man entirely without prejudices
00:27:36 <pikhq> elliott: That's not a fiscal belief, that's a social belief.
00:27:44 <pikhq> elliott: And I didn't say that the hooker was female.
00:27:50 <elliott> pikhq: Doing lines off a hooker's ass is a fiscal belief?
00:28:02 <pikhq> elliott: You pay money for the lines of coke and the hooker.
00:28:07 <elliott> oerjan: I'm not sure what you're trying to say :p
00:28:33 <pikhq> elliott: s/You pay/One pays/
00:28:44 <elliott> It's so fucking pretentious.
00:29:30 <Sgeo> I love that word.
00:29:52 <elliott> That's not exactly an English word.
00:29:55 <Sgeo> Is it "Yes" and I forgot to type the accent? Is it if? Is it actually Esperanto, and "one"
00:30:24 <elliott> Gregor: That would have an accent.
00:30:25 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, with all that gcc-cross stuff...
00:30:26 -!- Ilari has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:30:31 <elliott> pikhq: Does pcc use the triples?
00:30:46 <Gregor> elliott: Feh, which language has "si" with no accent, I'm pretty sure one does ...
00:31:17 <oerjan> elliott: i'm just futilely trying to use sarcasm to point out an excessive generalization of the type that i'm sure is part of what is currently poisoning the US political climate.
00:31:20 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
00:31:28 <pikhq> elliott: I *think* it does.
00:31:31 <elliott> pikhq: You know that path-to-the-dynamic-linker thing?
00:31:33 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
00:31:41 <elliott> Couldn't you only hardcode the filename and let there be a search path?
00:32:07 <pikhq> Violate ELF spec, you'd need to modify the kernel.
00:32:19 <elliott> oerjan: Do you not think that *tolerating* the Republicans' utter insanity is part of that? The fact that they have a culture where the Republicans and the Democrats constitutes a LEGITIMATE TWO-PARTY SYSTEM...
00:32:35 <elliott> I'd say they need to portray both of them as goat-fucking abortions.
00:32:38 -!- Ilari has joined.
00:32:49 <elliott> Totally the plural of abortus.
00:33:04 <Sgeo> Gregor, Spanish and Esperanto, unless my memory fails
00:33:33 <pikhq> oerjan: The thing is, they actually *advocate* increasing military spending and cutting taxes.
00:33:35 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: BTW, with all that gcc-cross stuff...
00:33:36 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: Does pcc use the triples?
00:33:36 <elliott> <elliott> Presumably clang does.
00:34:04 <pikhq> oerjan: The lines of coke thing is just a silly stereotype about pretty much anyone with more money than anyone could possibly spend.
00:34:10 <pikhq> oerjan: Such as almost all politicians.
00:34:17 <pikhq> Erm, almost all US politicians.
00:37:12 <oerjan> elliott: pikhq: well i'm just saying you are _both_ sounding like fanatics.
00:37:23 <elliott> oerjan: i don't take any of this seriously
00:37:50 <Sgeo> Including me???
00:37:57 <pikhq> oerjan: No. Seriously. The Republicans ACTUALLY ADVOCATE THIS.
00:38:01 <pikhq> oerjan: AS THEIR PLATFORM.
00:38:16 <elliott> oerjan: i think it's pretty obvious that their political system is near-unsalvagable as they have the choice between ultra-right-wing and almost-ultra-right-wing
00:38:22 <oerjan> pikhq: i am not saying that you are lying. i am saying you _sound like a fanatic_.
00:38:24 <Sgeo> elliott, are you just trying to make sure PSOX stays dead?
00:38:31 <elliott> Sgeo: You do realise pikhq is in the US too?
00:38:51 <oerjan> it is in fact possible to tell the truth in an entirely counterproductive manner.
00:38:59 <pikhq> oerjan: Why, yes, of course I do.
00:39:03 <Sgeo> Apparently you're fundamentally opposed to Pebble too
00:39:37 <pikhq> oerjan: Are you *familiar* with what the Republicans are like?
00:39:53 <elliott> oerjan: it is also possible to vent
00:39:57 <elliott> which is clearly what pikhq is doing
00:40:13 <elliott> it's not like he's trying to convince anyone
00:40:16 <pikhq> And, yeah. I need to vent sometimes. Gaaaah.
00:40:26 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:40:56 <elliott> http://www.acc.umu.se/~achtt315/tunguska/ Ternary system emulator.
00:41:05 <elliott> With a ternary-C-dialect compiler!
00:41:10 <elliott> I approve to an insane degree.
00:41:17 <elliott> "It is loosely based on the excellent design of the (binary) 6502-processor by MOS Technology, but entirely ternary. So instead of having two memory cell states (0, 1), it has three (-1, 0, 1)."
00:41:58 <elliott> pikhq: ^ Impossibly awesome
00:41:59 <elliott> http://www.acc.umu.se/~achtt315/tunguska/shots/tunguska_gtk.png
00:42:05 <elliott> And a command-line on this display!
00:42:48 * catseye is measuring programmer productivity in lines of coke
00:46:45 <elliott> It tries to use your proxy.
00:46:50 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
00:47:10 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/faaf59ee1b1b/bin/wl
00:47:33 <elliott> `run wl 'sv sill' 2>&1 | tr -d '\n' | tail -n +10
00:47:38 <elliott> `run wl 'sv sill' 2>&1 | tr -d '\n' | tail -c +10
00:47:42 <HackEgo> (most recent call last): File "/tmp/hackenv.20289/bin/wl", line 37, in <module> q = query(continue_id) File "/tmp/hackenv.20289/bin/wl", line 29, in query response = urllib2.urlopen(url).read() File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/urllib2.py", line 126, in urlopen return _opener.open(url, data, timeout)AttributeError:
00:47:47 <elliott> `run wl 'sv sill' 2>&1 | tr -d '\n' | tail -c +20
00:47:51 <HackEgo> ent call last): File "/tmp/hackenv.20352/bin/wl", line 37, in <module> q = query(continue_id) File "/tmp/hackenv.20352/bin/wl", line 29, in query response = urllib2.urlopen(url).read() File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/urllib2.py", line 126, in urlopen return _opener.open(url, data, timeout)AttributeError: ProxyHandler
00:47:55 <elliott> `run wl 'sv sill' 2>&1 | tr -d '\n' | tail -c +50
00:47:58 <HackEgo> ckenv.20399/bin/wl", line 37, in <module> q = query(continue_id) File "/tmp/hackenv.20399/bin/wl", line 29, in query response = urllib2.urlopen(url).read() File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/urllib2.py", line 126, in urlopen return _opener.open(url, data, timeout)AttributeError: ProxyHandler instance has no attribute 'open'
00:48:04 <elliott> I guess that's actually my issue, huh.
00:48:10 <Gregor> `run wl 'sv sill' 2>&1 | paste
00:48:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28689
00:48:37 <Gregor> That looks like your problem to me.
00:49:12 <Sgeo> Windows 7 is growing on me.
00:49:20 <Sgeo> But I'm missing a lot of stuff that Ubuntu had
00:49:23 <elliott> Every fucking thing grows on you.
00:49:31 * catseye sprays Sgeo with windicide
00:49:35 <Gregor> <Sgeo> This tumor is growing on me.
00:50:13 <elliott> `fetch http://pastie.org/pastes/1219576/download?key=1fzihgyczmg1qaxeqnpsq
00:50:17 <HackEgo> 2010-10-13 23:50:11 URL:http://pastie.org/pastes/1219576/download?key=1fzihgyczmg1qaxeqnpsq [1187/1187] -> "download?key=1fzihgyczmg1qaxeqnpsq" [1]
00:50:19 <elliott> `run cat download?key=1fzihgyczmg1qaxeqnpsq >bin/wl
00:50:33 <Gregor> ... seriously ... cat foo > bar ... not cp ...
00:50:34 <elliott> Gregor: Interwiki translate!
00:50:46 <elliott> And cp would make me have to chmod +x it again.
00:50:53 <elliott> `run rm download?key=1fzihgyczmg1qaxeqnpsq
00:50:57 <elliott> Gregor: MY LAZINESS IS UNSURPASSED
00:51:45 <elliott> Gregor: Translating English to English? :P
00:51:45 <elliott> `run wv 'en fucking la' 2>&1
00:51:47 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: wv: command not found
00:51:50 <Gregor> I don't know what this is supposed to do :P
00:52:11 <elliott> Gregor: "wl langcode foo" looks at langcode.wikipedia.org/wiki/foo
00:52:16 <elliott> Gregor: It looks for an English interwiki link
00:52:25 <elliott> if you provide a third argument, that is used instead of english
00:52:36 <elliott> Gregor: this is basically for all the times Vorpal says he doesn't know what a word is in English and I find it via interwiki
00:52:58 <elliott> `run wl 'en fucking la' 2>&1
00:53:02 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/tmp/hackenv.21071/bin/wl", line 40, in <module> \ for link in q['query']['pages'].values()[0]['langlinks']: \ KeyError: 'langlinks'
00:53:13 <elliott> Fucking redirects to fuck, you see.
00:53:36 <elliott> There's a redirects parameter to automatically handle them.
00:53:42 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:54:07 * elliott makes it "zh bicycle", "en zh bicycle"
00:54:10 <elliott> More consistent API, right?
00:55:14 <pikhq> 自転車, should be valid Written Chinese as well.
00:56:16 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
00:56:55 -!- petabit has joined.
00:56:57 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
00:57:01 <Gregor> Monty Python has defeated Wikipedia.
00:57:38 <catseye> apparently only a few european civilizations have developed the bicycle
00:57:38 <elliott> Gregor: oerjan: That is my error message, you doofuses.
00:57:56 <elliott> Gregor: i.e. "No link, here's a translation that works in any case!"
00:58:13 <oerjan> elliott: dammit i was just about to check the article for vandalism :D
00:58:14 <Gregor> elliott: Should've used "If I said you have a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? I am no longer infected."
00:58:24 <elliott> Aand why is that no output.
00:58:27 <elliott> `run wl 'en bicycle fi' 2>&1
00:58:30 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/tmp/hackenv.21773/bin/wl", line 42, in <module> \ print link['*'] \ UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf6' in position 7: ordinal not in range(128)
00:58:45 <Gregor> elliott: You fail at Monty Python.
00:58:55 <catseye> Python: you fail at unicode
00:58:58 <elliott> wondering why you'd prefer that :P
00:59:11 <elliott> `fetch http://pastie.org/pastes/1219594/text?key=sggh817ogyryzpccok0bta
00:59:13 <HackEgo> 2010-10-13 23:59:07 URL:http://pastie.org/pastes/1219594/text?key=sggh817ogyryzpccok0bta [1962/1962] -> "text?key=sggh817ogyryzpccok0bta" [1]
00:59:19 <elliott> `rm text?key=sggh817ogyryzpccok0bta
00:59:23 <elliott> `fetch http://pastie.org/pastes/1219594/download?key=sggh817ogyryzpccok0bta
00:59:25 <HackEgo> 2010-10-13 23:59:19 URL:http://pastie.org/pastes/1219594/download?key=sggh817ogyryzpccok0bta [1469/1469] -> "download?key=sggh817ogyryzpccok0bta" [1]
00:59:38 <elliott> `run cat download?key=sggh817ogyryzpccok0bta >bin/wl; rm download?key=sggh817ogyryzpccok0bta
01:00:05 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:00:11 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:00:46 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:00:46 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:00:54 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:01:04 <elliott> There are surprisingly few interwikis on [[en:fuck]].
01:01:35 <elliott> Because it's an article about the word, not the meaning. Blarh.
01:01:41 <elliott> `wl en simple Category_theory
01:01:44 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:01:58 <oerjan> that pretty much sums up the theory, yeah
01:02:01 <Gregor> `wl en simple Jesus_of_Nazareth
01:02:13 <pikhq> The Japanese article has a full description of how to use "fuck" idiomatically in English. It's kinda funny.
01:02:38 <oerjan> Gregor: Jesus_of_Nazareth redirects to Jesus, i'm pretty sure
01:03:01 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/tmp/hackenv.22666/bin/wl", line 55, in <module> \ for link in q['query']['pages'].values()[0]['langlinks']: \ KeyError: 'langlinks'
01:04:00 <elliott> `fetch http://pastie.org/pastes/1219610/download?key=vfm9cgewz89yc6tolaprwq
01:04:15 <HackEgo> 2010-10-14 00:04:09 URL:http://pastie.org/pastes/1219610/download?key=vfm9cgewz89yc6tolaprwq [1559/1559] -> "download?key=vfm9cgewz89yc6tolaprwq" [1]
01:04:17 <elliott> `run cat download?key=vfm9cgewz89yc6tolaprwq >bin/wl; rm download*
01:04:18 <Gregor> `wl en simple General_relativity
01:04:33 <oerjan> nothing simple about it
01:04:49 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.22947/bin/wl: error while loading shared libraries: /tmp/hackenv.22947/bin/wl: file too short
01:05:10 <elliott> `run cat download?key=vfm9cgewz89yc6tolaprwq >bin/wl; rm download*
01:05:12 <catseye> "file too short". love it.
01:05:17 <elliott> `fetch http://pastie.org/pastes/1219610/download?key=vfm9cgewz89yc6tolaprwq
01:05:22 <Gregor> elliott: Good job breaking it, hero.
01:05:24 <HackEgo> 2010-10-14 00:05:18 URL:http://pastie.org/pastes/1219610/download?key=vfm9cgewz89yc6tolaprwq [1559/1559] -> "download?key=vfm9cgewz89yc6tolaprwq.1" [1]
01:05:32 <elliott> `run cat download?key=vfm9cgewz89yc6tolaprwq.1 >bin/wl; rm download*
01:05:33 <catseye> "file surpasses komologorov lower bound"
01:05:57 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
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01:07:12 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:07:34 <elliott> `wl en it Dirty_Hungarian_Phrasebook
01:08:32 <elliott> Now let's replace Google Translate's backend with it.
01:09:32 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:10:01 <elliott> I MUST CREATE EXPLICIT LATIN WITH MY PROGRAM
01:11:05 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:11:14 <elliott> Shouldn't it be hu en, really?
01:11:40 <elliott> `wl en nl The_Treachery_of_Images
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01:13:26 <catseye> `run 'wl en pt Bicycle' | bzip2
01:14:57 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:14:57 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
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01:17:11 <Gregor> `wl en ja Cheeseburger
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01:19:17 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:21:05 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:21:44 <pikhq> I "love" how wrong that renders here.
01:21:48 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:22:08 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:22:28 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:23:22 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:23:44 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:23:47 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
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01:25:37 <catseye> Sgeo: do you still have windows growing on you
01:26:13 <Sgeo> Windows is to blame for all random disconnects?
01:29:01 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:29:14 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:29:32 <Sgeo> `wl en en My hovercraft is full of eels.
01:29:35 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Book-in-Xiaoerjing.png Guess what language the right page here is written in!
01:30:13 <HackEgo> You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!
01:31:33 <Sgeo> Someone coerced the bot into saying that. That's all I can assume from the delay
01:32:43 <catseye> `run wget http://www.han.de/~werner/ytree-1.96.tar.gz | bzip2 | bzip2 | bzip2 | bzip2 | bzip2
01:33:17 <pikhq> Seriously, none at all?
01:33:24 <catseye> pikhq: i would guess either Xiaoerjing, based on the link, or
01:33:31 <catseye> Arabic based on what it looks like
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01:33:55 <Gregor> Written in an alphabet for some reason.
01:34:53 <pikhq> Apparently, Mandarin-speaking Muslims write translations of the Koran using Arabic script, so as to allow for not botching Arabic loan words.
01:37:04 <pikhq> catseye: "小兒經" in Traditional Chinese, "小儿经" in Simplified, "Xiǎo'érjīng" in Pinyin, شِيَوْ عَر in Xiao'erjing.
01:37:08 <Sgeo> If something were written in English using Hebrew letters, I'd be able to use my limited understanding of Hebrew for something!
01:37:32 <pikhq> Sgeo: Maybe you could halfway-guess at the meaning of Yiddish.
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01:40:45 <catseye> need to make roguelike with cursive alphabet now
01:41:13 <Gregor> Are there any Unicode roguelikes?
01:43:04 <pikhq> (granted, it only uses the ASCII subset, but hey.)
01:43:54 <Gregor> Are there any NOT-EXCLUSIVELY-ASCII Unicode roguelikes?
01:44:41 <Sgeo> Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup
01:45:50 <pikhq> None that I know of.
01:45:58 <pikhq> (but there should be)
01:46:04 <catseye> Hey, it's the 13th. Happy backwards Hallowe'en day.
01:46:06 <Gregor> Sgeo: /me fails to find any evidence validating that claim.
01:47:53 <Sgeo> http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#char_set
01:48:59 <Gregor> Sgeo: The fact that it's capable of using UTF-8 does little to suggest that it actually uses any Unicode.
01:51:21 <Gregor> It could just be that it normally uses "extended ASCII" so they have to be wonky if you NEED UTF-8.
01:51:39 <pikhq> Gregor: It appears to actually use some of Unicode's drawing characters when set to UTF-8.
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01:52:05 <pikhq> The ones that are analogous to the ones on code page 437.
01:52:15 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Codepage-437.png Y'know, this one.
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02:02:43 <catseye> the only code page that matters
02:05:02 <pikhq> Unless you don't speak a Western European language.
02:05:18 <Sgeo> WHY is Chrome telling me it will take 3 hours to download a 355mb file?
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02:20:18 <pikhq> Wow. The Euro banknote designs are brilliant. To avoid creating anything favoring a particular nation, they had an artist *create* buildings & bridges in various architectural styles.
02:20:42 <pikhq> So, rather than featuring actual landmarks, they feature things that *would be landmarks if they existed*.
02:24:19 <Gregor> It seems I have written Transitions With No Resolution: A work for woodwind quintet
02:26:48 <Gregor> It could also be called Really Obvious Variations: A work for woodwind quintet
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02:45:29 <Gregor> Does anybody know enough about flutes to tell me what the reasonable /human/ upperbound for a concert flute is? (Not the Wikipedia upperbound)
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02:57:11 <catseye> i didn't even know wikipedia could play the flute
02:58:18 <Gregor> It's not very good at it.
03:06:16 <pikhq> Gregor: 44.1 kHz. Definitely.
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03:16:39 <quintopia> Gregor: Better name: A Work for Woodwind Quintopia
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03:21:14 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/WoodwindQuintet.ogg <-- nonsense for woodwind quintet
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04:12:59 <catseye> so if I import System.Console.Readline in my hs program does that make it GPL'ed
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04:24:01 <catseye> also why do File Browser windows not have a 'start a terminal in this directory' button
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04:25:52 <catseye> petabit: make up your mind! :)
04:30:11 <quintopia> Gregor: yep, that had some interesting moments but it pretty much went nowhere...
04:32:06 <Gregor> catseye: No, but to do so you must agree to license the /aggregate/ under the GPL. There is a distinction.
04:32:29 <Gregor> I should use a different term than "aggregate" since it sounds like "mere aggregation" which is a different thing :P
04:32:54 <Sgeo_> My CPR class has been moved to 9AM
04:33:01 <Gregor> catseye: (Also, it gets wonky in languages that aren't compiled)
04:33:02 <Sgeo_> I am barely awake at 9AMs
04:33:59 <catseye> Gregor: yeah like someone could provide an implementation of the System.Console.Readline api using libedit and WHAT THEN
04:34:08 <catseye> (well, not a weird question really)
04:35:02 <Sgeo_> Didn't the FSF claim that there was one project that went GPL solely to use ReadLine?
04:35:25 <catseye> Since this is haskell it almost makes more sense to provide some module of higher-order functions that 'readlineify' whatever primitive-input functions you give it
04:35:45 <Gregor> Sgeo_: Projects do do that, because people are stupid and don't realize the distinction between being forced to release your code under a GPL-compatible license and (impossibly) being forced to release your code under the GPL.
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04:41:23 <catseye> hey i want to import functions from two libraries with incompatible licenses
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04:42:13 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
04:43:56 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
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04:47:57 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
04:48:06 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
04:48:35 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
04:50:35 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
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04:51:25 * catseye was kind of expecting 'gato'
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04:58:09 <catseye> one of these days, petabit will make up their mind
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05:00:57 <quintopia> where is an op to kicktempban when you need one
05:01:46 <quintopia> so does wl say "My hovercraft is full of eels." only if it doesn't have the word?
05:01:54 <quintopia> or does it just randomly do it from time to time?
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05:09:17 <catseye> quintopia: the hovercraft message is if the source word is found, but there is no translation found, afaik
05:09:29 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
05:09:37 <catseye> or if the source word is not found, it seems.
05:10:23 <catseye> My denotational arrow has ranged beyond its lower bound.
05:11:04 <catseye> No results found for "denotational arrow", sez Google
05:12:41 <catseye> denotations are functions and functions are arrows!
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05:29:02 <pikhq> Yes, (->) is an instance of arrow.
05:29:07 <pikhq> Erm, instance of Arrow.
05:30:04 <quintopia> symbolic arrows, not objectual sagitti, yes?
05:31:12 <pikhq> I think for the first time since elementary, I just had homework that I did on automatic.
05:31:25 <pikhq> Math homework, that is...
05:32:00 <pikhq> Just grab a pencil and some paper, and do a bunch of partial derivatives.
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06:43:40 <HackEgo> You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!
06:43:57 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
06:44:09 <Vorpal> `wl sv en Ålartade fiskar
06:44:11 <HackEgo> You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!
06:44:23 <Vorpal> elliott: it seems broken
06:44:28 <Vorpal> `wl sv en "Ålartade fiskar"
06:44:30 <HackEgo> You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!
06:44:32 <Vorpal> `run wl sv en "Ålartade fiskar"
06:44:33 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
06:46:02 <quintopia> you must be drinking the wrong beer
06:46:09 <Vorpal> quintopia, or rather, yes. It works very well to destroy your liver and increase your weight
06:46:56 <Vorpal> quintopia, why would I be?
06:47:14 <Vorpal> (though you are correct, I am)
06:47:49 <quintopia> any kind of excessive alcohol intake would destroy your liver, so I assume you can't be anti-beer in specific.
06:48:08 <Vorpal> indeed, I'm anti-alcohol in general
06:48:34 <Vorpal> but I don't try to actively convince other people about it unless they bring the whole thing up.
06:49:03 <quintopia> you'll live 20 years longer! you'll get to know the joy of being 95 creaky old years!
06:50:27 <quintopia> unfortunately, you won't be able to enjoy it with tasty alcoholic beverages, so will it be worth it?
06:51:39 <Vorpal> who knows, maybe. bbl, university →
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07:59:40 <augur> i need appropriate hacker music
07:59:43 <augur> someone give me hacker music
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08:09:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/misc/uni1.jpg
08:09:44 <Vorpal> will read any comments when I get back, on tethered phone atm.... so kind of slow and not a good idea in the long run and so on.
08:10:01 <fizzie> It's a bit on the blurry side, isn't it?
08:10:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, stitched as rectilinear btw
08:10:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, to straighten up perspective
08:10:58 <fizzie> Yes, it looks that way. Very architectural feel to it.
08:11:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, well yes, that was intentional
08:11:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I would show you the first attempt at stitch, but the connection is too slow for me to want to upload more than one image.
08:11:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, it was... curvy
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08:12:03 <Vorpal> like, too much distortion correction
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08:12:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, straight lines near the corners looked like they were distorted by relativistic effects!
08:15:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I have some material to stitch an image of a long articulated bus here. The colour scheme they use is a kind of pink-lilac around here.
08:15:14 <Vorpal> don't have time to do that now though
08:16:35 <Vorpal> bbl, disconnecting from ssh tunnel to bouncer
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11:27:50 <cheater> so i am working at this energy company
11:27:53 <cheater> and the lights are flickering
11:28:00 <cheater> wonder if they paid their bill. LULZ!
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15:27:39 <quintopia> i amresentation on a neaural net experiment next thursday
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16:17:00 <quintopia> http://www.skepticmoney.com/fort-worth-city-councilman-joel-burns-tells-kids-it-gets-better-at-meeting/
16:29:27 <Slereah> That's because this whole channel is made of nerds
16:29:43 <Slereah> obv. they're gonna side with the nerds
16:30:52 <quintopia> i like to side with the underdogs whenever possible
16:31:12 <quintopia> i'm not really all that nerdy, as far as steretypical nerd behavior goes
16:31:15 <Slereah> Are you siding with the neonazis? :o
16:31:30 <quintopia> but i pretty much was in middle school, so that's fair
16:31:52 <quintopia> i said "whenever possible" for a reason
16:32:00 <Slereah> http://abstrusegoose.com/260
16:32:08 <Slereah> "My apologies to Jeff Kinney. I actually think his book, is awesome, but it’s clearly biased against dumb jocks.
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16:32:14 <quintopia> it's not possible for me to side with the immoral, rude, or otherwise douchey on principle
16:32:51 <quintopia> these kids he's talking about were not even nerds
16:32:57 <quintopia> he even said he himself played basketball
16:33:07 <quintopia> they got picked on solely because they were gay or seemed gay
16:33:58 <quintopia> i'll takes gays over jerks and bigots any day
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16:35:31 <Gregor> <Phantom_Hoover> And kind, pleasant bigots?
16:35:43 <quintopia> hmm, i'd probably take the kind, pleasant bigot over the douchey gay, but I would never be close friends with either
16:35:53 <Slereah> Yeah, I find his broad generalization of bigots to be a bit biggoted
16:36:01 <quintopia> but i think the idea of a kind, pleasant bigot is kind of an oxymoron
16:36:19 <Gregor> Y'know, like the old southern rocking-chair bigot. "Back in my day, the negros tended to the land. But today they run 'round killin'. Oh well, would ya like some pie?"
16:36:53 <quintopia> hehe, sure i'll take some pie ... to go.
16:37:08 <Slereah> Or the grandmothers who are physically incapable of stopping using the word negro
16:37:24 <Slereah> "Oh dear, such a nice young negro!"
16:39:13 <quintopia> you can be totally not racist while still not being able to use the currently PC terms
16:40:58 <Slereah> But what if she thinks they are a bit simple minded :o
16:41:07 <Slereah> Abraham Lincoln was a racist.
16:41:25 <Slereah> He did not believe in the equality of races, but that they should have equal rights :o
16:41:30 <quintopia> in 1866, almost all white americans were racist. what of it?
16:41:41 <Slereah> Well, that is not the point.
16:42:00 <Slereah> Are they all people you would not befriend? :o
16:42:27 <Gregor> Well, Lincoln was a republican too. Damned republicans.
16:43:19 <quintopia> well, that was back in the day when republicans were more liberal than democrats iirc
16:43:42 <quintopia> but yes, i would have a hard time befriending any of those people if they were alive in the modern world
16:43:53 <Gregor> Yeah, since then both terms have turned into complete mockeries of themselves :P
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16:57:13 <quintopia> if you get your jollies from being up the mentally-challenged, you are definitely a bad person
16:59:23 <Phantom_Hoover> The kind of person who thinks that float is a good type for currency variables.
16:59:55 <quintopia> if by that you mean "people who are of normally intelligent but are too close-minded to ever consider doing anything but what requires the least mental effort" then probably not. those people deserve ridicule.
17:00:19 <quintopia> but you have to have a lot of contact with someone before you can justifiably label them that way
17:01:07 <ais523> heh, I was teaching people about floating point inaccuracy today
17:01:15 <ais523> and even managed to slip in 850*77.1 as an example
17:02:05 <quintopia> yes. i have never heard of this example myself.
17:02:15 <ais523> the sum's famous for Excel 2007 getting the answer wrong
17:02:43 <ais523> the just-below-65535 number that's the result of the sum was handled incorrectly, somehow, by the binary->decimal conversion
17:02:53 <ais523> and it displayed the number, as a string, as "100000"
17:03:05 -!- elliott has joined.
17:03:55 <ais523> it is with float arithmetic, assuming I've remembered the sum correctly
17:04:04 <ais523> and I have, just checked
17:04:15 <ais523> the answer's 65535 exactly only in normal maths
17:04:28 <ais523> floats can't represent 77.1 exactly, so it gets rounded down very slightly
17:05:21 <quintopia> are there any production systems that use fractional representations instead of floats at a low level?
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17:06:18 <elliott> 17:31:33 <Sgeo> Someone coerced the bot into saying that. That's all I can assume from the delay
17:06:29 <quintopia> Does anyone here like Janssons Frestelse?
17:07:35 <elliott> 17:41:13 <Gregor> Are there any Unicode roguelikes?
17:07:44 <elliott> NetHack's rogue level, if you convert it!
17:08:22 <elliott> 18:20:18 <pikhq> Wow. The Euro banknote designs are brilliant. To avoid creating anything favoring a particular nation, they had an artist *create* buildings & bridges in various architectural styles.
17:08:22 <elliott> Just like Toy Story 4: Debian Versioning.
17:09:10 <elliott> 20:32:06 <Gregor> catseye: No, but to do so you must agree to license the /aggregate/ under the GPL. There is a distinction.
17:09:22 <elliott> rms, and his lawyer, got CLISP relicensed as gpl
17:09:26 <elliott> just because it *could* be linked with readline
17:09:32 <elliott> GPL: Scarier fucking shit than you think.
17:09:44 <Gregor> Wait ... that doesn't even make sense.
17:09:52 <elliott> But the FSF lawyer agreed.
17:09:57 <elliott> And, y'know, that's an actual lawyer.
17:10:03 <elliott> Gregor: Oh yeah, and clisp even CAME with a libnoreadline.a.
17:10:16 <elliott> That, when linked with clisp, provided it same-named functions as readline has, but that just used dumb stuff.
17:10:26 <elliott> Since it's "intended" to be linked with readline...
17:10:37 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, any software that allows itself to be used with RMS' spawn has to be GPLed?
17:10:40 <elliott> I suggest not trying to make sense of the law because it makes none.
17:10:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much, yes.
17:10:58 <elliott> Of course rms might have a harder time convincing a court...
17:11:02 <elliott> but the FSF lawyers certainly think so
17:11:05 <elliott> and it's certainly his intention.
17:11:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nobody else was doing it, really.
17:11:14 <elliott> This was in the early 90s.
17:11:31 <Gregor> elliott: Was it under something non-GPL-compatible before? That's the only explanation I can remotely think of ...
17:11:54 <elliott> Gregor: The code was readable-and-patchable-but-proprietary, I think.
17:12:09 <elliott> But readline wasn't distributed with it, and it provided a full method to link a perfectly-working CLISP.
17:12:21 <elliott> It's just that you could s/libnoreadline.a/libreadline.a/ and have it use readline.
17:12:26 <elliott> And since this was "intended" functionality...
17:12:30 <Gregor> Well, you've walked into much murkier waters now.
17:12:40 <elliott> The fucking thing didn't distribute readline.
17:13:04 <ais523> my own personal theory about this, is that if a user linked it with readline, it would be them who was breaking the law
17:13:07 <elliott> rms is arguing that since *IT CALLED FUNCTION PROTOTYPES THAT HAPPEN TO BE IN READLINE* and because Bruno Haible *thought in his mind* that people would link it with readline, it was copyright violation.
17:13:16 <elliott> This is *fucking insane* and not murky at all.
17:13:18 <ais523> but the software itself wasn't
17:13:26 <elliott> tl;dr stop using the GPL, it's utterly insane
17:13:33 <ais523> so perhaps they could be found guilty of facilitating copyright infringement, but nothing else
17:13:51 <ais523> anyway, the GPL is relatively sane; some of its advocates aren't
17:14:02 <elliott> 20:35:45 <Gregor> Sgeo_: Projects do do that, because people are stupid and don't realize the distinction between being forced to release your code under a GPL-compatible license and (impossibly) being forced to release your code under the GPL.
17:14:10 <elliott> You can't use readline in a BSD-licensed project.
17:14:38 <Gregor> "I don't agree. My lisp.a is not a "work based on libreadline.a". What I distribute is a "mere aggregation" of lisp.a and libreadline.a - the latter with source." // this clisp email discussion is suggesting something very different from what you're saying
17:14:53 <elliott> Gregor: Yes -- he then offered to stop doing that.
17:14:57 <elliott> And rms said that that would not suffice.
17:15:32 <Gregor> In spite of your statements to the contrary, this IS a murky area. What he's distributing is COMPILED BINARIES, not source.
17:15:42 <elliott> Gregor: *HE THEN OFFERED TO STOP DOING THAT*
17:16:22 <Gregor> As far as I can tell, he offered to stop distributing libreadline.a, distribute a libclisp.a that was still compiled with readline headers, and a libnoreadline.a that provides the same interface.
17:16:29 <elliott> 22:44:32 <Vorpal> `run wl sv en "Ã…lartade fiskar"
17:16:41 <ais523> elliott: here's a fun license question: NetHack is under the NHPL, a trivial variant of the GPL0. Suppose I disassemble one of the executables that nethack.org provides, to extract a library function from it that wasn't in the source they provided
17:16:48 <elliott> Gregor: You can't exactly prove it was compiled with those headers.
17:16:49 <ais523> can I post that disassembly?
17:16:55 <elliott> That doesn't affect the binary.
17:17:10 <elliott> i thought you were asking like
17:17:30 <Gregor> elliott: It can affect the binary. And you DON'T know, that's the whole issue. Your source is still being intermixed with GPL'd source before creating a .o.
17:17:30 <elliott> ais523: wait, they include extra things in the binary builds? or is this a hypothetical?
17:17:40 <ais523> elliott: it's the libc, it's linked statically
17:17:51 <ais523> they probably didn't even notice they were theoretically supplying it
17:17:53 <elliott> Gregor: Yeaaah I don't believe a handful of function prototypes can be copyrighted.
17:18:10 <elliott> ais523: depends on the libc license, surely
17:18:37 <ais523> it's a license that lets them ship binaries, at least
17:18:41 <ais523> I am also completely muddled
17:18:52 <ais523> especially as I have the source for the libc in question, but not the exact version
17:18:56 <ais523> and the asm doesn't match the source I have
17:19:38 <Vorpal> <elliott> 22:44:32 <Vorpal> `run wl sv en "Ã…lartade fiskar" <-- unicode fail
17:20:00 <elliott> Vorpal: what's it actually?
17:20:06 <elliott> i'll see if it works used properly
17:20:23 <Vorpal> `run wl sv en Ålartade_fiskar
17:21:12 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:21:16 <Gregor> Yeah, elliott, you're majorly oversimplifying the issue. You are allowed to distribute a piece of software under the MIT license that uses a GPL'd library. If you distribute a binary /linked to use the GPL library, whether it includes its implementation or not/, then you must release that binary under the GPL. But you can release the source under MIT, somebody can rip out the GPL dependency, and then they can produce an MIT-redistributable binary. RMS wanted C
17:21:16 <Gregor> LISP released under the GPL and not some compatible license because RMS is RMS, not because that was the legal obligation.
17:21:29 <elliott> en is totally useless there
17:21:44 <elliott> Gregor: It's not linked to that.
17:21:55 <elliott> Vorpal: because it's automatic
17:22:05 <elliott> Gregor: Also, rms explicitly states that his lawyer said that Bruno had to relicense as *GPL*.
17:22:06 <Gregor> I didn't say linked to
17:22:11 <elliott> Gregor: Linked to use. Define this.
17:22:33 <Gregor> elliott: Compiled using copyrighted headers and linked against the interface of.
17:22:46 <elliott> "Linked against the interface of"
17:22:53 <elliott> so if someone releases a set of GPL'd functions
17:23:02 <elliott> you can't use another library that has functions with the same prototype
17:23:06 <elliott> because that counts as using gpl'd software?
17:23:07 <ais523> I think the current wisdom is to do with the definedness of the API
17:23:26 <Gregor> elliott: You can't link against THAT HEADER.
17:23:27 <Vorpal> elliott, strange that eel translates to "eel-like fish"
17:23:41 <elliott> Gregor: That header isn't copyrightable.
17:23:46 <elliott> Vorpal: It's just interwiki.
17:24:06 <Vorpal> elliott, strange interwiki still
17:25:02 <ais523> does `wl do "translation" via interwikis?
17:25:16 <ais523> could be a bit risky, given how interwikis work
17:25:25 <elliott> ais523: but a bit more too:
17:25:25 <Gregor> OK, I have no time for this silly argument. It is a fact that you can release source under any GPL-compatible license even if it's designed to use a GPL'd library.
17:25:28 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: re how currencies are stored: oh, the stories I could tell.
17:25:32 <Gregor> And that is what I claimed.
17:25:51 <elliott> `wl fr Mon_aéroglisseur_est_plein_des_anguilles.
17:25:54 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
17:26:09 <ais523> elliott: there's an actual interwiki there?
17:26:17 <elliott> ais523: no, it interwikis the individual words
17:26:21 <elliott> and then looks up a word order table online
17:26:33 <elliott> ais523: (I'm joking; that's its "no translation found" error.)
17:26:49 <Gregor> elliott: From GNU's GPL FAQ: "If a library is released under the GPL (not the LGPL), does that mean that any program which uses it has to be under the GPL or a GPL-compatible license? Yes, because the program as it is actually run includes the library."
17:26:52 <elliott> `wl en fr My_hovercraft_is_full_of_eels
17:26:54 <Gregor> Note the "GPL-compatible" part
17:27:04 <elliott> Gregor: Did it say that in the 90s?
17:27:14 <ais523> `wl en it My_hovercraft_is_full_of_eels
17:27:40 <ais523> (picking Italian here, because there is actually an it: interwiki from that article on en...)
17:27:44 <Gregor> elliott: archive.org has only back to 2001, but it said it then :P
17:27:46 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
17:28:04 <elliott> But yeah, it works to Italian.
17:28:05 <ais523> I wonder why mine finished before yours?
17:28:13 <cpressey_> < Phantom_Hoover> I'd assume that there are lots. <-- yes, well... that's the thing see...
17:28:17 <ais523> elliott: except that it isn't a translation at all
17:28:30 <ais523> the interwiki only goes from article covering a subject, to another article covering the subject
17:28:39 <elliott> when Vorpal mentioned a fish "sill"
17:28:44 <elliott> and couldn't remember the english word for it
17:29:39 <cpressey_> < elliott> just because it *could* be linked with readline <-- but does this means that all Lisp programs that can use CLISP's readline facilities are also GPL-liable? I wouldn't think so, but...
17:30:08 <elliott> cpressey_: no, it doesn't apply to interpreters
17:30:15 <elliott> and compilers have special exceptions
17:30:34 <elliott> but true, if clisp exposes a readline api
17:30:38 <elliott> then they get the same treatment
17:30:52 <elliott> (of course if it renames the functions and jiggles the arguments it's an ~ABSTRACTION LAYER~)
17:31:15 <ais523> you know, I think RMS may be one of the only people in the world who spreads FUD about his own license
17:31:50 <quintopia> who is this root-mean-squared guy again?
17:32:38 <ais523> why would someone called "paul" have an R as their first initial?
17:32:55 <ais523> (that said, I've seen people whose initials didn't match their names before, presumably due to one using contractions and the other not...)
17:32:57 <cheater> because the additional stroke is his big penis
17:34:37 <cheater> ais523: it's easy for this to happen with titles and other things like that (e.g. Jean-Luc or d'Alembert)
17:35:03 <cpressey_> < HackEgo> Eel < HackEgo> Eel < HackEgo> Eel <-- I hear ya, dude.
17:36:07 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: the stories would be too depressing
17:36:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: in reply to?
17:40:55 <elliott> does anyone know how to draw a hollow square in GIMP?
17:42:53 <quintopia> um, draw a square, select the center, delete?
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17:49:00 <cpressey_> < elliott> (of course if it renames the functions and jiggles the arguments it's an ~ABSTRACTION LAYER~) <-- sudo apt-get install rlwrap ;; making the whole thing moot for a whole array of things -- unless it's even worse than I thought
17:49:13 <elliott> cpressey_: just use libedit :P
17:49:59 <cpressey_> elliott: My haskell programs are at the mercy of the haskell implementation. Is there a pragma for "don't seat me next to rms"?
17:50:56 <elliott> cpressey_: Just use sufficiently advanced type system hackery.
17:51:04 <elliott> cpressey_: Anyway, GHC uses libedit.
17:51:35 <cpressey_> maybe i'ma gonna have to get a more recent ghc 'cuz i swear... anyway.
17:54:08 <cpressey_> Phantom_Hoover: OK, one, but it'll have to be really quick. I was once on a team with a *PhD* who defended his code change which *extracted the only-conventionally-private float member out from the currency object* and did floating point math on it, on the grounds that he was "creating an abstraction" which "the programmer might find easier to use" (presumably because he didn't understand how to use the methods of the currency object.)
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17:59:47 <olsner> but but... how can breaking abstractions be construed as creating them?
18:00:40 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ is very topical today
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18:02:18 <oerjan> olsner: see: n-categories, quantum groups
18:03:14 <oerjan> and probably heaps of other examples in math
18:05:21 <cpressey_> oerjan: i want to invent "denotational arrows". they sound like they have such lovely properties.
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18:42:29 <elliott> In which my hair is longer than reality itself: http://i.imgur.com/3tiaR.jpg
18:44:28 <fizzie> Maybe you should /nick eHAIRd, then.
18:46:27 <elliott> My hair is about that long, but I do in fact have a properly-formed mouth, non-hollow eyes, and other features.
18:50:28 <elliott> I guess my hair could be hiding the border around my torso there, actually.
18:50:34 <elliott> SO I GUESS IT IS AN ACCURATE DEPICTION AFTER ALL
18:50:45 <Gregor> Nom nom Graggo eat babies.
18:51:29 <Gregor> NOM NOM GRAGGO[R] EAT BABIES
18:53:37 <oerjan> probably just a local zombie epidemic
18:54:02 <Gregor> Local ... to your living room!
18:54:33 <oerjan> impossible. there are no babies to eat here.
18:55:25 <Gregor> Then I guess I'll just have to settle for YOUUUUU
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19:24:22 <cpressey_> one of the problems with a ring language is that you need some program (0) that both does nothing to any program (a = a + 0) and brings every program to its knees (a * 0 = 0).
19:29:29 <elliott> cpressey_: well if + is "execute in parallel, first one to finish wins" and * is "sequential execution"...
19:29:33 <elliott> iirc there are other problems with that though
19:29:39 <elliott> but by those definitions, 0 = _|_
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19:30:28 <Gregor> elliott: If '+' is FIRST one to finish wins, then a + 0 is 0.
19:30:43 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, since when does an infinite-looping program finish first.
19:30:54 <elliott> Or are you assuming 0 is halts-immediately without any reason to?
19:31:10 <Gregor> Since when is .... ohh, 0 isn't the null program, it is a program that fits its shape in this case X-P
19:32:29 <elliott> cpressey_: conal wrote a haskell package implementing an operator, let's say +, where a + _|_ = a, _|_ + b = b, and a + b = either a or b when neither a nor b is _|_
19:32:36 <elliott> cpressey_: (by just using threads)
19:32:39 <elliott> but that's basically what + is here
19:32:42 <elliott> except the a + b case would be defined
19:32:48 <elliott> it was called race or something
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19:39:44 <elliott> cpressey_: NetBSD's filesystem is called FFS :D
19:40:00 <Vorpal> elliott, was there any practical use for that haskell package?
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19:40:18 <elliott> the actual semantics were that it would return whichever succeeded first
19:40:34 <elliott> so you could run two algorithms in parallel, both of which have edge-cases that blow up but the other handles
19:41:24 <cpressey_> < elliott> cpressey_: well if + is "execute in parallel, first one to finish wins" and * is "sequential execution"... <-- you just described Cabra
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19:42:17 <elliott> cpressey_: then how is it a problem for rings?
19:42:22 <elliott> also, i thought you had already done that, yeah
19:42:43 <cpressey_> elliott: yeah it's not a ring. it's a dioid. it's a problem because of distributivity iirc
19:46:49 <elliott> x SEQ (y PAR z) = (x SEQ y) PAR (x SEQ z)
19:47:00 <elliott> cpressey_: that doesn't seem so hard to me
19:47:07 <elliott> or is right-distributivity the issue?
19:47:18 <elliott> (y PAR z) SEQ x = (y SEQ x) PAR (z SEQ x)
19:47:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, btw did I mentioned that I liked that GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-VSTi-2010-10-10.ogg?
19:47:36 <elliott> cpressey_: admittedly i'm finding it a little hard to reason about this, but I don't see any problem in either of those
19:48:23 <Vorpal> Gregor, just wondering one thing: what instruments? There is obviously some strings and something that sounds like a cross between an organ and brass?
19:49:03 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's a string quartet, but the cello in this instrument set has a problem of sounding a bit brassy.
19:49:20 <elliott> Problem schmoblem, it's a FEATURE!
19:49:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm, also: VSTi?
19:50:15 <elliott> "a lot of people think that a fax machine sends the piece of paper rolled up really tight over the existing lines... these people are very misinformed. it's only the INK that goes over the lines." --reddit
19:50:22 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.google.co.uk/search?&q=vsti
19:50:25 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vsti
19:50:35 <elliott> Or even http://www.google.com/search?q=vsti
19:50:36 <Vorpal> elliott, both works :P
19:50:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: Oh, btw, http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet.ogg is a newer and somewhat improved one. And VSTi == Virtual Studio Technology instrument. It's a system for MIDI instruments that are programmatic rather than patch-based.
19:50:53 <elliott> Oops! This link appears to be broken.
19:51:05 <Gregor> * http://codu.org/music/op11/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet.ogg
19:51:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh I see. Do you mean synthed or something else with "programmatic" here?
19:52:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: Well, both VSTi's and patch-based systems e.g. soundfonts are synthesized, by that I mean that the instruments are actually software, and so can range from patch-based (like existing systems) to full-on physical modeling of the instrument. Usually they're somewhere in between.
19:52:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, also soundfont is sampled right?
19:53:13 <Gregor> Well, I guess that depends on your definition of "synthesized" ... they're sampled, then those samples are munged around to get the full range, looping, etc.
19:53:30 <Vorpal> oh yeah, indeed depends on definition
19:54:21 <Vorpal> Gregor, I think the piano is even better btw
19:54:39 <elliott> 3:16 is a bit jarring but I guess that's intentional :p
19:54:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, but that could just be due to the "strings sounding like brass" issue
19:56:19 <pikhq> Apparently, Firefox until 4.0 used a single heap for Javascript stuff...
19:56:35 <pikhq> I'm surprised they've even got all that still set up in a manner that it's *possible* to have a single heap for that.
19:56:44 <cpressey_> elliott: i think right distributivity was also a problem, but consider also: every program must have a unique additive inverse. for every program a, there is a unique program b that, when run in parallel, results in _|_. how?
19:56:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, do you mean the malloc() heap?
19:56:55 <pikhq> Erm. Well, not possible, but rather sane.
19:56:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: The GC heap.
19:57:07 <elliott> cpressey_: The additive inverse of a program a is a program that does the opposite of a at every step.
19:57:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed, very strange
19:57:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: A single heap for *every individual bit of Javascript* running.
19:57:25 <elliott> So, for instance, if a at one step makes the flag it's looping on to false, the additive inverse will set it to true at the same time.
19:57:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: Keep in mind that the *UI* is in Javascript.
19:57:45 <olsner> it's easier to have a global heap than to keep stuff apart :P
19:58:17 <pikhq> olsner: Except that they should have been running each tab in a seperate thread for ages now.
19:58:29 <pikhq> olsner: Making a global GC heap a *royal pain* to do well.
19:58:41 <pikhq> Unless, of course, you just stop the world, defeating the whole point.
19:58:44 <olsner> really? I didn't think firefox threaded at all
19:58:57 <pikhq> That... Explains even more of its suckitude.
19:59:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, separate threads. Well, I have 38 tabs open. It's a single threaded machine. Chrome is way slower than firefox on this box
19:59:24 <Vorpal> when it comes to such things
19:59:31 <Vorpal> and it uses even more RAM
19:59:58 <pikhq> olsner: Threading should be kinda the natural structure there...
20:00:10 <Vorpal> okay, so v8d beats firefox sometimes, sure. But the whole thing is sluggish in general
20:00:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: Are you looking at top and summing the RAM reported?
20:00:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: If so, you're a moron.
20:00:32 <cheater99> you know, the funny thing about vsts is that they all sound the same
20:00:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, no, I'm checking free -m after echo 5 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches
20:00:38 <olsner> pikhq: opera is single-threaded :)
20:00:43 <cheater99> the only thing that changes is the interface
20:00:47 <Vorpal> with empty firefox and empty chrome open respectively
20:01:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Ah, *empty*. See, where Firefox gets you is when you *use* it.
20:01:23 <cheater99> firefox gets so hogged up by open websites
20:01:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, test same with 10 tabs open. The difference is smaller, but still there. Also firefox is faster.
20:01:35 <olsner> I don't think threading has ever been the natural state for browsers - you're usually displaying a single tab on a single screen on (at least in the past) a single cpu
20:01:37 <Vorpal> I hesitate to call it snappy, because none of them is
20:01:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which Firefox, which distroy?
20:01:55 <cheater99> it's like i'm using a website and every action/click and every time i scroll makes firefox add a usleep(5) at the end of its event loop
20:01:56 <olsner> from there, you'd rather go multi-process on it than to introduce yucky deadlocky racey threads
20:01:58 <pikhq> olsner: The thing is, 1 thread *per tab* seems very natural.
20:02:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, distro is arch linux. Firefox is one called namoroka. 3.6.10
20:02:10 <pikhq> olsner: I mean, there's almost no communication between them.
20:02:16 <cheater99> olsner: all tabs are being run at the same time
20:02:19 <cpressey_> elliott: but then how does it become _|_ in the end, rather than nop?
20:02:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, and chromium version? Not sure, I uninstalled it after my tests. Was about half a month ago I tested
20:02:41 <Vorpal> and last version at that time
20:02:43 <cheater99> pikhq: sharing of caches and pre-compiled DOMs and other objects
20:02:44 <elliott> cpressey_: well if a then loops on the flag, if -a gets it false rather than a getting it true, it...
20:02:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: 7.0.517.36, built from the ebuild www-browser/chromium
20:03:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, same for firefox, so firefox might have been at 3.6.9, same first two digits
20:03:06 <elliott> cpressey_: do we need -(-a) too?
20:03:28 <Vorpal> <olsner> I don't think threading has ever been the natural state for browsers - you're usually displaying a single tab on a single screen on (at least in the past) a single cpu <-- indeed
20:03:30 <cpressey_> not saying it's not possible, obviously, just harder than it looks at first glance
20:03:55 <olsner> cheater99: what do you mean "wrong"?
20:04:03 <elliott> cpressey_: we even need foo + -foo to work even if foo is just like... increment by one
20:04:17 <elliott> cpressey_: ok, maybe 0 isn't _|_ then
20:04:18 <cheater99> olsner: "youre displaying a single tab on a single screen" is wrong train of thought.
20:04:46 <fizzie> Firefox Mobile (Fennec) has that Electrolysis thing, which puts browser UI, web-content rendering and plugins in completely separate processes; I'm not sure if it's one process per tab, chromium-like, or something else.
20:04:50 <pikhq> cheater99: Okay, but it *still* seems like you'd want to do threading for that.
20:04:57 <elliott> cpressey_: _|_ doesn't necessarily mean loop forever!
20:04:59 <elliott> cpressey_: it can just mean fail
20:05:09 <cheater99> pikhq: i'd just have separate threads for separate domains
20:05:16 <elliott> a + 0 = a; -- 0 raises the error but + ignores it and picks the other
20:05:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, sounds like a rather large and invasive change
20:05:23 <elliott> a * 0 = 0; -- a runs, then 0 runs and flags an error
20:05:35 <olsner> cheater99: IMO the common case is that you have only one tab visible at a time
20:05:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Maybe, but they've implemented it in the recently-released beta.
20:05:47 <elliott> cpressey_: then we just have, for every instruction a, -a which is a version of a, say, with the Flag An Error For No Reason flag on
20:05:48 <cheater99> olsner: and that doesn't mean jack
20:05:52 <elliott> cpressey_: so -(-a) = a because it flips it twice
20:05:54 <cheater99> olsner: because of what i told you earlier
20:05:58 <pikhq> olsner: Aaaand all the tabs *still have things to do*.
20:05:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, as in "difficult to keep code synced to standard browser"
20:06:00 <elliott> and -a always throws an error for a "positive" (non-erroring a)
20:06:08 <pikhq> olsner: Javascript doesn't just stop because the page isn't being rendered.
20:06:17 <pikhq> olsner: Nor does Flash (the abomination).
20:06:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think at least the "out-of-process plugins" bit is something they're trying to put into the desktop browser too.
20:06:50 <cheater99> which is the crucial matter to showing how failed all the internet standards are
20:07:05 <pikhq> Basically, to do a tabbed interface, you are having to either implement something vaguely similar to multiple processes or *actually do that*.
20:07:15 <cheater99> this single situation shows they were all invented by idiots and cobbled together by human-monkey crosses
20:07:19 <pikhq> Because it's all running stuff.
20:08:00 <cheater99> they all use the exact same framework, exact same objects just copies of them, exact same layout
20:08:03 <pikhq> Presumably Firefox, Opera, etc. are just implementing a scheduler on a single thread...
20:08:11 <cheater99> yet, they all have to be calculated 20 times!
20:08:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, has there been any updates on the n900-replacement front? I guess you are likely to know this better than me.
20:08:29 <olsner> pikhq: so they're cooperatively threaded then :P
20:09:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: The plugin thing seems to be the first bullet point in the "what to release in Firefox in 2010 after 3.6" roadmap: "Multi-process plugins (Flash crashes/instability don't bring down the browser)"
20:09:08 <pikhq> olsner: Which is, ah, moronic.
20:09:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: Do you mean hardware-wise, or software-wise?
20:09:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, they could be timeshared?
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20:09:45 <cheater99> pikhq: i love the fact that in firefox 3.5 the freaking websites and http/rendering engine lock up the fucking gui
20:10:02 <olsner> pikhq: among other things, such a structure allows you to run on operating systems that don't have threads :)
20:10:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm isn't plugins separate processes already? I seem to remember that killall java works well when java in firefox hangs
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20:10:27 <cheater99> olsner: which is something that is only interesting to you personally.
20:10:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: Possibly some plugins (like java) do their own "another process + IPC" thing, but it's not comprehensively so.
20:11:02 <pikhq> olsner: Yes, yes, the *highly important* DOS port.
20:11:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's just how Java's implemented.
20:11:28 <fizzie> At least nspluginwrapper needs to do a separate process; possibly Linux Flash in general. I think on Windows it might not necessarily be.
20:11:35 <pikhq> cheater99: Only if you use nspluginwrapper.
20:11:46 <cheater99> pikhq: which happens without my knowledge
20:11:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, so what about the hw replacement thing?
20:11:53 <pikhq> fizzie: No, it is very much just run in the same process.
20:11:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I haven't heard anything more about n9
20:12:37 <olsner> cheater99: it is interesting for everyone who wants a browser on such an OS :)
20:12:39 <elliott> cpressey_: TOTALLY WILL get speccing
20:12:58 <elliott> cpressey_: (even if giving every command an error flag is weird...)
20:13:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, they officially announced the Symbian^3 "flagship" models back then, I think it was somewhat discussed. All the rest is just rumours; there's been some more N9 rumours too, including specs, but they're all out-of-someone's-hat stuff.
20:13:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably they are not just going to drop meego?
20:14:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: I guess it's pretty safe to say that N9 will do capacitive multitouch; rumour has it it'll be built on the Qualcomm SnapDragon 1GHz platform, and do MeeGo.
20:14:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, does n900 use resistive?
20:14:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, so the n9 won't work with gloves on in the winter?
20:15:23 <fizzie> Maybe if you get one of those capacitive-stylus tips for each of your fingertips in the glove.
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20:15:36 <cheater99> capacitive stylus works with capacitive
20:15:47 <fizzie> cheater: Yes, but we were talking about the N9.
20:16:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, the N900 PR1.3 firmware, which is supposed to be out "soon", will make it "easy" (blog-post quotations) to dual-boot between Maemo and latest-weekly-MeeGo-image (via kexec, I think), so there's something going on on the MeeGo front.
20:17:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, and latest MeeGo-on-N900 can make phone calls (with the oFono stuff) already. :p
20:17:24 <elliott> Things I didn't expect to see today: A 43-minute dramatisation of Karen Carpenter's anorexia played entirely by Barbie dolls.
20:18:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's "a free, open source project for mobile telephony (GSM/UMTS) applications"; an Intel/Nokia project. Something like an (dbus-based) API for apps that want to do something related to phone calls.
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20:19:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, UMTS, is that same as GPRS or same as 3G?
20:20:07 <fizzie> But of course it's only an application-level API, the actual low-level stacks will still probably be binary blobs.
20:20:40 <fizzie> Though I think I heard something open-sourcey modemy things in a MeeGo context too. Haven't really looked very closely at it.
20:20:47 <Vorpal> hm does it send the voice data over dbus too?
20:20:52 <olsner> sounds gnome:ish - will I have to fiddle with 7 concurrent sound API:s to make phone calls work then?
20:20:54 <elliott> Why does NetBSD suck at installing in QEMU?
20:21:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, that's done with pulse, I think. I'm not sure if oFono mandates that, though.
20:21:21 <elliott> (I like to think pikhq just insults me for no reason)
20:21:30 <olsner> elliott: API's and gnome'ish?
20:21:57 <fizzie> I sort of would like to see a nice telephony API; I've always wanted to stick one of those horrible navigate-through automated phone menus (maybe with some command-recognition and speech synthesis) on my phone. I don't get phone calls from anyone else than telemarketers, anyway.
20:22:17 <Vorpal> olsner, hm yeah I think that was a Swedishism
20:22:22 <olsner> I usually use "'" for that stuff in swedish, where I believe : is what you're supposed to do
20:22:38 <Vorpal> olsner, just swap the behaviours then
20:23:04 <Vorpal> elliott, "API:er" would be the way to pluarlise it in Swedish I believe
20:23:17 <pikhq> Y'know, the entire telephone infrastructure sucks.
20:23:21 <Vorpal> though I have to admit I'm not 100% certain
20:23:26 <elliott> LET'S REINVENT THE TELEPHONE
20:23:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, less so in Europe
20:23:45 <fizzie> "Please repeat the next thirty words after the beep to make me answer the phone." "Sorry, my speech recognition system was built by the lowest bidder; please repeat." "No, I still didn't quite get it: please repeat." "Sorry, reached the limit on the number of attempts you are allowed to do. Better luck next time."
20:23:45 <elliott> LET'S REINVENT ELECTRICITY
20:23:57 <olsner> elliott: at least for acronyms with suffixes it's ':', gnomeish would just be gnomskt or something like that
20:24:06 <pikhq> For some reason it makes sense to run copper wires from a gigantic Internet-connected computer to a microphone & speaker, alongside the Internet signal.
20:24:29 <pikhq> Rather than just... Use the Internet for all but the last few feet.
20:24:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, historic reasons
20:24:54 <pikhq> (yes, pretty much everything but the last mile is already on the Internet)
20:25:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, also, for me the internet signal goes over that copper wire (ADSL)
20:25:15 -!- cpressey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:25:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, and it should damned well be replaced.
20:25:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, it works well. *shrug*
20:25:59 <pikhq> Especially in the US, where fiber-to-the-home was *paid for 15 years ago*.
20:26:17 <fizzie> Also there's the reliability argument; no-one wants packet loss on their emergency calls.
20:26:20 <coppro> the taxpayer, probably
20:26:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: The United States of America.
20:26:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, and it never happened?
20:26:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: We gave a few *billion* in tax credits to phone companies for the purpose of funding fiber-to-the-home.
20:26:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, then why the fuck don't they demand the money back
20:26:54 <pikhq> The phone companies responding by doing fuck all.
20:27:03 <elliott> Vorpal: because the US is a corporatocracy
20:27:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, didn't they give it with a clause attached?
20:27:17 <pikhq> They did. But the US is a corporatocracy.
20:27:21 <Vorpal> elliott, oh good point
20:29:00 <pikhq> And now we wonder why the Internet sucks.
20:30:40 <pikhq> Another thing: there is *absolutely no point in all* in how cable service is usually done here. We use a few channels on the cable for Internet, and all the rest for TV. Instead of multicast IP, and just offering a few gigabits/sec Internet...
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20:31:11 <cpressey_> 1791035613 [main] irssi 3988 exception::handle: Exception: STATUS_ACCESS_VIOLATION
20:31:11 <Gregor> pikhq: Hey! I need my TV.
20:31:15 <pikhq> Of course, to make that sane we'd need to have multicast on the public Internet.
20:31:26 <pikhq> Gregor: Imagine plugging an Ethernet jack into it.
20:31:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, Aren't there a limit to number of multicast groups iirc?
20:31:44 <Gregor> pikhq: No, you'd only need multicast on the cable networks' local networks.
20:31:57 <Gregor> Hell, you'd really only need broadcast flood.
20:32:03 <pikhq> Gregor: No, you see, the idea is you get the TV signal directly from the broadcaster.
20:32:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, also there is a sense to that. You would easily overrun the backbone
20:32:12 <Vorpal> if every american had a few gbps to his computer
20:32:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, you would need to scale up the backbone a LOT
20:32:32 <pikhq> Gregor: Imagine being able to watch any TV signal *in the world*.
20:32:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: We should!
20:32:56 <elliott> Fuck building things around TV.
20:33:17 <elliott> We dictate your audio-visual schedule for the day! Put us in your living room.
20:33:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: If the US cut off, say, 1/4 of the "defense" budget, it could pay for the necessary upgrades this year.
20:33:25 <elliott> Vorpal: I have no problem at all with watching tons of TV material.
20:33:31 <elliott> I just dislike the scheduled format.
20:33:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, fat chance though
20:33:45 <elliott> pikhq: You fool! That goes to the Stargate program.
20:34:04 <Vorpal> elliott, did I say something else?
20:34:25 <elliott> cpressey_: It is actually a very good show, despite Sgeo liking it :)
20:34:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: If the phone companies actually used the gigantic funds they get to increase infrastructure, *they* could have it done by now.
20:34:39 <pikhq> elliott: The Stargate program is a broom closet. Honest.
20:34:52 <elliott> pikhq: Biggest. Broom closet. EVER.
20:35:06 <elliott> Cheyenne Mountain Broom Closet
20:35:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah, Well they did in Sweden to some degree. Except we had less gigantic funds. Oh and I found out my ISP is IPv6 ready except for last mile basically.
20:35:23 <Vorpal> they are working on that now, last I heard
20:35:29 <elliott> I want to start an ISP sometime.
20:35:51 <elliott> Actually I wish I was around in the days where an ISP could consist of a rack in your basement and a line from the phone company.
20:35:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: God dammit if we could just support multicast on the public Internet.
20:36:07 <elliott> You know, when you actually had tiny little -- even "indie" -- ISPs.
20:36:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, that would only work well for scheduled tv
20:36:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: That would actually make there be much less bandwidth usage.
20:36:29 <elliott> Vorpal: xs4uk is cool but MEH :P
20:37:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, it doesn't work for the case of 10000 people watching a youtube video, because most of them would out of sync with each other
20:37:06 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't plan to live in the UK :P
20:37:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: You can actually do multicast file sharing. Repeat the broadcast continually to host it. The problem is that it can't stream too well.
20:37:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well, about starting an ISP I mean. You don't have a sane one over there in UK do you?
20:37:35 <elliott> I'll probably go to university in another country, and I don't feel a particular inclination to stay in the UK when I leave.
20:37:46 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.bogons.net/
20:37:52 <pikhq> Vorpal: Would work wonderfully for things like a podcast, though.
20:38:04 <elliott> Vorpal: also https://www.bethere.co.uk/web/beportal/homepage
20:38:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, depends on if you watch podcast in real time or not
20:38:22 <elliott> Vorpal: less indie, but faster and cheaper
20:38:27 <elliott> Vorpal: and still pretty savvy
20:38:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, no, you just *use the multicast to download it*...
20:38:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: As opposed to http...
20:38:41 <elliott> pikhq: HTTP over Multicast :D
20:38:58 <pikhq> Or any other such prerecorded thing where you can expect there to be a lot of people downloading it within a certain time frame.
20:39:33 <elliott> pikhq: Implement a BitTorrent extension for multicast seeders.
20:39:39 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.bogons.net/ <-- better web page design than the other one! ;P
20:39:39 <pikhq> elliott: Beautiful.
20:39:53 <elliott> Combine this with web seeds -- which already exist -- and the regular tracker/DHT thing, and tada.
20:40:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah like the iwc podcasts! ;P
20:40:02 <elliott> Just take down the multicast seed after a short while.
20:40:12 <elliott> Vorpal: be redesigned recently
20:40:13 <pikhq> On IPv4, you've got a /4 worth of possible multicast groups.
20:40:17 <elliott> it's ... not the best redesign
20:41:00 <elliott> Vorpal: http://images.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/1595-website.jpg their old design, silly ad but more reasonable design
20:41:05 <pikhq> On IPv6, you've a /8 worth of possible multicast groups.
20:41:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh yeah, and they have an IRC server for users: http://irc.beusergroup.co.uk:8080/?channels=Be
20:41:33 <elliott> Well, okay, run by the usergroup, but Be links to it from their site.
20:41:34 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Only 112 of the bits are for actual groups.
20:41:39 <pikhq> 2^112-1 possible groups.
20:41:47 <pikhq> Which is still quite absurd.
20:42:23 <pikhq> ... 2^122-1 possible groups *per scope*.
20:42:56 <pikhq> Interface-local, link-local, admin-local, site-local, organization-local, and global scopes are currently defined. Each with their own group-space.
20:43:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, what scope is ::1 ?
20:43:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not a multicast address.
20:44:02 <Vorpal> <pikhq> 2^112-1 possible groups. <pikhq> ... 2^122-1 possible groups *per scope*.
20:44:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, so less in total than per scope?
20:44:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, which is the actual number then?
20:44:44 <pikhq> 2^112-1 per scope.
20:44:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, also wtf is "admin-local"?
20:45:11 <Vorpal> or wait, I never seen interface-local either
20:45:43 <Vorpal> [1732343.022354] atkbd serio0: Unknown key pressed (translated set 2, code 0x7c on isa0060/serio0).
20:45:44 <Vorpal> [1732343.022364] atkbd serio0: Use 'setkeycodes 7c <keycode>' to make it known.
20:45:46 <pikhq> Local to the group of administrative configuration.
20:45:47 <Vorpal> that happens from time to time
20:46:00 <Vorpal> I have no clue what key
20:46:24 <Vorpal> I seem unable to trigger it intentionalluy
20:46:31 <fizzie> pikhq: The current IPv6 addressing architecture spech limits the group ID to 32 bits; "While this limits the number of permanent IPv6 multicast groups to 2^32 this is unlikely to be a limitation in the future. If it becomes necessary to exceed this limit in the future multicast will still work but the processing will be sightly slower."
20:46:47 <fizzie> (It's because the mapping from IPv6 multicast groups to Ethernet MAC addresses takes the 32 lowest bits.)
20:46:51 <pikhq> fizzie: That's silly. They reserve 112 bits for the group ID.
20:47:06 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, and top 80 bits of those 112 are "reserved must be zero".
20:47:13 <fizzie> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2373.txt 2.7.2.
20:47:34 <pikhq> Still, that's IPv4-space of possible multicast groups...
20:48:03 <Vorpal> how does that work with the MAC thingy then...?
20:48:07 <pikhq> Which is probably quite reasonable for the amount of people that will want to actually broadcast stuff.
20:48:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, unless something changes. Which is quite possible
20:48:37 <Vorpal> like a new thing using multicast is invented
20:48:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: That 4 billion people want to broadcast from.
20:48:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Upper 80 are zero, lower 32 are taken as the MAC address.
20:48:54 <Vorpal> and we need to go ipv7 or whatever
20:49:05 <elliott> why on earth does linux use letters for drive names?
20:49:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, "we will never need 4 billion IPs"
20:49:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, "640 kB is enough for everyone"
20:49:27 <Vorpal> yeah, we heard this before a number of times!
20:49:33 <elliott> /dev/sda0 is silly, e.g. /dev/sd0p0 would be better
20:49:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway, like it says it's "easy" (for some values of) to extend the addressing to full 112 bits without having to move from IPv6 to anything.
20:49:44 <Vorpal> elliott, you could change it, udev
20:49:55 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah i'll just break everything for a minor issue :)
20:50:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: There's also the thing about how IPv4 does not have a 1-to-1 mapping from IPs to devices, unlike group IDs would.
20:50:22 <fizzie> Wasn't it so that devfs already made the paths more "logical"? (Then those went away when devfs died.)
20:50:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: Every time you create a subnet, you've made 2 addresses unusable.
20:50:33 <elliott> fizzie: you have the LOVELY LOVELY GUID PATHS
20:50:38 <elliott> but only people with OCD use those
20:50:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not sure that stuff will break, it already handles stuff like /dev/md0, /dev/hda, /dev/sda, /dev/sr0 and several more
20:50:53 <Vorpal> I believe some hardware raid have their own too
20:50:55 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah but e.g. default arguments to tools
20:51:01 <fizzie> elliott: Yes, but there was in devfs something like .../bus0/lun0/disk0/part0.
20:51:02 <elliott> it's still a bit pointless
20:51:13 <elliott> fizzie: Looks like OpenFirmware disk identifiers.
20:51:21 <fizzie> "So, whereas /dev/hda4 was used previously, we now have /dev/ide/host0/bus0/target0/lun0/part4. This is far more easy... no, don't argue with me... it is easier... ah whatever! :) "
20:51:31 <Vorpal> elliott, sure you need to update your boot loader config and fstab. Possibly a few more things, but nothing more than if stuff changed from /dev/sda to /dev/sdb
20:51:38 <elliott> Also the hda/sda thing is a bit silly.
20:51:47 <elliott> "We totally had to change all the names, don't you get it? We CHANGED INTERNAL IMPLEMENTATIONS."
20:52:14 <Vorpal> elliott, um. Well that name change proves that changing it again would be trivial
20:52:20 <pikhq> elliott: The internal implementation no longer makes a distinction between IDE and SCSI and SATA.
20:52:32 <Vorpal> just a case of changing bootloader config and fstab
20:52:33 <fizzie> Doesn't the Ubuntu installer put UUID paths to /etc/fstab by default?
20:52:41 <elliott> debian-installer probably does too
20:52:47 <pikhq> (it's all ATA over the wire)
20:52:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, except it breaks in a lot of cases. Well "a lot" is maybe stretching it
20:53:03 <elliott> pikhq: Better question - why did it ever distinguish them?
20:53:08 <Vorpal> dm-crypt, lvm, software raid
20:53:09 <elliott> Why didn't SATA just get put into the hd* namespace?
20:53:10 <pikhq> elliott: Hysterical raisins.
20:53:19 <fizzie> Well, for LVM it's all just /dev/mapper/volgroup-volname.
20:53:19 <Vorpal> you can't do the UUID stuff reliably then
20:53:23 <elliott> And why is it acceptable in /dev/ to indicate hierarchy by name prefixes?
20:53:43 <Vorpal> elliott, good question, it is moving away from that though, /dev/usb and so on
20:53:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: The UUID stuff is part of the filesystem, not the device.
20:53:49 <fizzie> cheater99: "Logical Unit Number" or some-such; it's for something like the different drives in a CD jukebox that uses a single SCSI device.
20:53:59 <elliott> Probably Unix 0.00000001 didn't have nested directories.
20:54:40 <cheater99> elliott: no. it's just that resolving an inode was sloooooooooooooooooow on winchesters.
20:55:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Like that system emulator.
20:55:40 <Vorpal> elliott, hm? which one?
20:56:00 <elliott> 16:40:56 <elliott> http://www.acc.umu.se/~achtt315/tunguska/ Ternary system emulator.
20:56:00 <elliott> 16:41:05 <elliott> With a ternary-C-dialect compiler!
20:56:00 <elliott> 16:41:10 <elliott> I approve to an insane degree.
20:56:00 <elliott> 16:41:17 <elliott> "It is loosely based on the excellent design of the (binary) 6502-processor by MOS Technology, but entirely ternary. So instead of having two memory cell states (0, 1), it has three (-1, 0, 1)."
20:56:00 <elliott> 16:41:58 <elliott> pikhq: ^ Impossibly awesome
20:56:01 <elliott> 16:41:59 <elliott> http://www.acc.umu.se/~achtt315/tunguska/shots/tunguska_gtk.png
20:56:04 <elliott> 16:42:02 <elliott> It even has a display!
20:56:06 <elliott> 16:42:05 <elliott> And a command-line on this display!
20:56:17 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, balanced ternary is IMO one of the most confusing numeral systems ever invented.
20:56:26 <Vorpal> but balanced ternary? blergh
20:56:32 <oerjan> "Why must californian grape farms be regularly sprayed with sedatives?"
20:56:33 <elliott> I don't know if it actually uses it as -1.
20:56:38 <elliott> It's used as a third logical state, at least.
20:56:59 <Vorpal> elliott, perfect for SQL then ;)
20:57:33 <elliott> "They're all crazy there."
20:57:44 <cpressey_> a number in balanced ternary: 1,0,1,-1,-1,0,1
20:57:52 <Vorpal> elliott, Umeå Universitet. WAY up north
20:58:05 <elliott> Vorpal: And ... what is that supposed to mean?
20:58:05 <fizzie> udev changelog in gentoo: "This release removes the devfs names for the tty and consolde devices, and the symlinks that were implementing the LSB standard names. We only implement the LSB names now, which saves over 3Mb of RAM on /dev." -- that's quite a lot of names.
20:58:21 <Vorpal> elliott, they have to be crazy, or they wouldn't live where you can get -50°C in the winter!
21:00:03 <fizzie> I seem to recall that Debian had the devfs names provided by udev rules at some point as a compatibility kludge too. They don't seem to be there any more now, though.
21:00:49 <oerjan> elliott: no it's because of hysterical raisins, silly
21:00:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I heard a story from someone who was up there one winter (due to work, he had no choice). It was -49°C outside. He went from the hotel to the opposite side of the square it was located at. By the time he reached that side his moustache had frozen solid from the exhaled wet air.
21:01:30 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, anyone insane enough to live in such conditions has to be crazy.
21:01:40 <elliott> Anyone insane enough ... has to be crazy.
21:02:20 <Vorpal> elliott, only lunatics would be insane enough though!
21:02:22 <elliott> Heh, Wikipedia using zorkmid as a metasyntactic currency.
21:02:33 <Vorpal> elliott, on which page?
21:02:36 <fizzie> There's still the /dev/disk/by-path/ symlinks; but then it's something like /dev/disk/by-path/pci-0000:00:11.0-scsi-0:0:0:0-part1 instead of /dev/sda1.
21:02:37 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_ternary
21:02:44 <elliott> Paragraph starting "Similarly, a currency system using ternary values would save visits to the bank".
21:03:00 <elliott> "Donald Knuth has pointed out that truncation and rounding are the same operation in balanced ternary — they produce exactly the same result."
21:03:42 <elliott> "Multiplication by two can be done by adding a number to itself." Really now.
21:04:33 <cpressey_> "The sky would remain blue and essentially unchanged."
21:05:39 <oerjan> there _might_ be more double rainbows, though
21:07:25 <elliott> cpressey_: I'm installing NetBSD in a VM to test.
21:07:36 <fizzie> elliott: Of *course* it runs NetBSD.
21:08:04 <elliott> fizzie: McDonald's -- I'm Lovin' It
21:08:08 <elliott> (Let us all quote slogans!)
21:08:16 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/RonaldMcDonald-trademarkia-originaltrademark1967.jpg dear god
21:08:20 <fizzie> "Housut pois ja hoitoon."
21:08:30 <pikhq> Your mother, all night long.
21:08:59 <Vorpal> So, the purpose is to provide a simple and accessible, yet powerful playground for ternary computing for the man in the street (with a decent understanding of assembly programming and general computer infrastructure). " XD
21:09:24 <elliott> fizzie: Interesting slogan...
21:09:31 <elliott> `wl fi Housut_pois_ja_hoitoon
21:10:02 <oerjan> no, finnish has no articles.
21:10:17 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/RonaldMcDonald-trademarkia-originaltrademark1967.jpg dear god <-- sure it isn't vandalism?
21:10:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, what about a 4-state logic system?
21:10:41 <elliott> Vorpal: two revisions, only extra one is a whitespace crop
21:11:26 <elliott> "Their symbol is $, although this should not be taken to mean the zorkmid exchange rate is pegged to the US dollar."
21:11:54 <elliott> Command: /bin/sh MAKEDEV all
21:12:12 <oerjan> they're using a currency basket, of course
21:12:13 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, what about a 4-state logic system, instead of the classical binary or ternary ones
21:12:28 <Vorpal> elliott, or why not a decimal computer. That would be interesting
21:12:37 <Vorpal> 10 logical states, I wonder what you could use that for
21:12:41 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_computer
21:12:45 <elliott> Many early computers, for example the ENIAC, IBM 702, IBM 705, IBM 650, IBM 1401, IBM 1620, IBM NORC, IBM 7070, IBM 7080, UNIVAC I, UNIVAC II and UNIVAC III used decimal arithmetic (IBM 1401 addresses were a combination of decimal and binary arithmetic).
21:12:54 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
21:12:59 <Vorpal> elliott, not decimal logo though?
21:13:19 <elliott> `run wl fi Housut_pois_ja_hoitoon 2>&1
21:13:35 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
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21:14:08 <elliott> `run wl en fi article 2>&1
21:14:20 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the point of BCD for general computing.... BCD for controlling 7-segment displays: sure. But for general computing?
21:14:45 <elliott> cpressey_: Quote from the NetBSD installer:
21:14:54 <Vorpal> elliott, but I mean, x86 supports it, and lots of mainframes does
21:14:58 <Vorpal> there has to be a reason
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21:15:05 <elliott> YES LET'S ENCRYPT MY PASSWORD WITH DES
21:15:19 <elliott> Vorpal: hysterical ones relating to raisins.
21:15:28 <Vorpal> elliott, go for whirlpool
21:15:33 <elliott> Oh yeah, it even says that DES will only encode the first eight characters.
21:15:35 <Vorpal> elliott, why? the name is cool
21:15:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I quoted all the options.
21:15:40 <elliott> I'm going to go with Blowfish.
21:15:52 <elliott> There's probably some way to do it.
21:15:54 <elliott> Just not in the installer.
21:16:05 <Vorpal> elliott, on linux you would set that in PAM
21:16:07 <elliott> I don't think there are any known flaws in Blowfish.
21:16:19 <elliott> And, well, Bruce Schneier.
21:16:28 <oerjan> google translate doesn't seem to know "hoisut"
21:16:40 <elliott> oerjan: it said "remove pants for a treat" for me
21:16:46 <elliott> Vorpal: "Blowfish provides a good encryption rate in software and no effective cryptanalysis of it has been found to date. However, the Advanced Encryption Standard now receives more attention."
21:16:50 <elliott> so blowfish should be good
21:16:58 <elliott> especially with 128 rounds
21:17:06 <Vorpal> elliott, "There remains no known way to break the full 16 rounds, apart from a brute-force search."
21:17:18 <elliott> Vorpal: 128 rounds in NetBSD
21:17:20 <Vorpal> elliott, more rounds can sometimes be bad iirc
21:17:30 <elliott> Vorpal: I sorta trust the BSD guys to not pick a retarded number of rounds.
21:17:46 <Vorpal> elliott, for some cryptos there is some best number somewhere, less is worse, but also more is worse
21:17:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and bcrypt is Blowfish.
21:18:05 <fizzie> elliott: To be completely honest, it's not actually a slogan.
21:18:11 <elliott> Vorpal: So there's not really anything to worry about.
21:18:15 <elliott> fizzie: I *did* Google it.
21:18:36 <elliott> Vorpal: "Housut pois ja hoitoon."
21:19:07 <elliott> I wonder what /bin/sh is on NetBSD?
21:20:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is not part of BSD.
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21:20:12 <French> This spam brought to you by: #freenode! Remember, node freely or don't node at all!
21:20:13 -!- French has left (?).
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21:20:44 <Jaxton> This spam brought to you by: #freenode! Remember, node freely or don't node at all!
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21:20:58 <Vorpal> elliott, ksh is probably pdksh?
21:21:09 <olsner> ok, that was funny exactly once
21:21:23 <olsner> now I'm slightly worried there will be hundreds of spams
21:21:26 <Aeryn> This spam brought to you by: #freenode! Remember, node freely or don't node at all!
21:21:26 -!- Aeryn has left (?).
21:21:26 <elliott> pdksh is derived from the bsd ones
21:22:52 <elliott> "Although the Blowfish-based system has the option of adding rounds and thus remain a challenging password algorithm, it does not use a NIST-approved algorithm. In light of these facts, Ulrich Drepper of Red Hat led an effort to create a scheme based on the SHA-2 (SHA-256 and SHA-512) hash functions."
21:23:04 <elliott> Ulrich Drepper, always making sure we use only NIST-approved hashing algorithms.
21:23:12 <fizzie> Debian's dash is a successor of NetBSD's ash (which is what /bin/sh is), I think.
21:23:32 <elliott> Because if there's one organise we want to trust about cryptography, it's the NSA!
21:23:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that a different dash than what ubuntu uses for /bin/sh ?
21:23:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the same.
21:24:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: Definitely the same Debian Almquist Shell.
21:24:39 <elliott> Yup, NetBSD's X11 is from June 2008.
21:25:12 <pikhq> elliott: So far, the NSA's suggestions towards cryptography have *just* been improvements (as far as we know).
21:25:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, who was Almquist? I mean, I heard the name before. Both in computing context and outside it
21:25:28 <fizzie> "Ubuntu: Stealing from Debian since 2004."
21:25:33 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but... they also had the ability to break -- uh, what was it? DES?
21:25:42 <Vorpal> the latter obviously due to it being a Swedish familyname
21:25:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Kenneth Almquist, author of ash.
21:26:10 <Vorpal> elliott, from US or Sweden? (I guess it is one of those)
21:26:13 <elliott> Anyway, Debian doesn't use ash as /bin/sh I think.
21:26:24 <olsner> so he changed his first name to "Debian" and rewrote it as dash? :)
21:26:44 <pikhq> elliott: As far as is known, they did not have the ability to break DES until the EFF showed it could be done.
21:26:55 <Vorpal> olsner, accurate and astute as usual!
21:26:59 <elliott> pikhq: they had differential cryptanalysis, though
21:27:53 <pikhq> elliott: They *did* make an unexplained suggestion to DES that was precisely what was needed to make it resistant to differential cryptanalysis before the knowledge of that technique was public.
21:28:33 <elliott> pikhq: it must have been a coincidence :)
21:28:35 <fizzie> One of my debians has dash in /bin/sh; another doesn't. I think it's sort-of optional there, but if you do install the package, it diverts /bin/sh to itself.
21:28:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, they used ASIC for the task. In a small production run. That always makes my mind boggle
21:29:00 <pikhq> elliott: It's well-known that the NSA had knowledge of it quite a bit earlier than the general public.
21:29:16 <elliott> <Zeshawn> Is it normal for my penis to be 2 inches at the age of 12?
21:29:23 <elliott> Well that was... on-topic.
21:29:30 <pikhq> elliott: IBM was asked not to publish, you see.
21:29:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe a staffer told that guy to quit it.
21:30:59 <elliott> NetBSD is such a nice kernel/libc/coreutils with such a shitty distribution.
21:31:32 <elliott> (Well, okay, it isn't actually shitty. Just imperfect.)
21:31:59 <elliott> X -configure, has it ever worked in the history of things working?
21:33:14 <olsner> I've used it to configure X
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21:33:58 <webquint> do you have the pastie link for the walls ruleset in your logs?
21:34:22 <Gregor> pikhq, Vorpal: http://poll.fm/2c4e9
21:34:42 <elliott> I might have the file here
21:34:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: webquint wrote a rule
21:34:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, we told you before, I forgot the numbers
21:35:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHY SHOULD I TELL A GAY VAMPIRE ABOUT GOLLY RULES
21:35:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, let me quickly listen to them
21:35:24 <webquint> gay vampires are the best vampires
21:35:51 <Gregor> webquint: I'd rather they don't suck BLOOD is all.
21:35:59 <elliott> Gay vampire sitcom: "I vill suck yor... [KNOCK ON THE DOOR]"
21:36:03 <elliott> Gregor: DAMMIT STOP PREEMPTING ME
21:36:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, what about op1?
21:36:27 <webquint> gregor: you don't mind being sucked by vampires otherwise?
21:36:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: Opuses 1-4 DO NOT EXIST >_>
21:36:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, ah, 0 or -1 then!
21:36:52 <Gregor> webquint: Depends on how they work the fangs >_> <_<
21:37:07 <webquint> ain't you never seen true blood?
21:37:20 <Vorpal> Gregor, idea: fractional and irriational opus numbers
21:37:25 <elliott> lol the #freenode spammers are coming into #freenode
21:37:28 <elliott> and asking why #freenode is spamming
21:37:57 <elliott> * French (~French@189.188.167.108) has joined #esoteric
21:37:57 <elliott> <French> This spam brought to you by: #freenode! Remember, node freely or don't node at all!
21:37:57 <elliott> * French (~French@189.188.167.108) has left #esoteric
21:38:01 <elliott> happening all over the place
21:38:05 <elliott> now they're coming into #freenode and going
21:38:07 <elliott> WHY IS FREENODE SPAMMING ;_;
21:38:12 <Vorpal> Gregor, the op8 recording sounds good to me. At least after listening to the earlier ones
21:38:34 <Gregor> Vorpal: ... then don't vote for it?
21:38:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, I'm torn between 7 and 5. :/
21:38:40 <webquint> elliott: i can has that file now please? *insert pupy dog face*
21:38:47 <elliott> webquint: ffff i'm doing other things
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21:39:21 <Gregor> elliott: My question is why are the French spamming? Bloody French!
21:39:42 <oerjan> Ceci n'est pas un spam
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21:40:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, does op5 has a metronome in it? Or what is the strange clicking noise?
21:40:26 <Vorpal> hm too irregular for metronome
21:40:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, I cast my vote on 7
21:40:49 <elliott> * Schantelle has quit (Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
21:40:55 <elliott> like kindly informing them
21:41:00 <elliott> "oh, spam is a bit off-topic here"
21:41:09 <elliott> legit mistake, anyone could do it!
21:42:39 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
21:43:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, I love both op5 and op7. They are a lot more "action filled" than op11 certainly.
21:44:16 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
21:44:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: I will probably eventually get to all of them.
21:44:53 <oklopol> any math/esolanging today?
21:44:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, 7 is the one in most urgent need of it
21:45:06 <elliott> oklopol: please introduce some
21:45:20 <oklopol> also i saw two ppl having sex at a spa today
21:45:32 <oerjan> elliott: i'm surprised it's not Svenskekocken in a single word
21:45:54 <elliott> It's the Swedish cock, not the Swedishcock.
21:48:35 <oerjan> well it's usually in one word in norwegian, is all
21:49:22 <oerjan> (when referring to the muppet)
21:49:59 <elliott> catseye: Huh, NetBSD doesn't ship with pkgsrc.
21:51:31 <oerjan> same with the swedish king too
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21:51:53 <oklopol> i can introduce a tiny bit of math: let S be a semigroup, we define an eq relation R, xRy iff xS = yS, similarly xLy iff Sx = Sy. we define H = R \cap L. greene's theorem says the maximal subgroups of S are exactly the equivalence classes X in H that \exists x, y \in X, xHyHxy or 2) there's an idempotent in X
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21:53:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm? *reads up*
21:54:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, like "svenskekungen"? or what?
21:54:36 <oerjan> Svenskekongen, actually
21:54:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, would be separate words in Swedish: Sveriges kung.
21:54:51 <oerjan> possibly with a hyphen
21:54:54 <Vorpal> wouldn't even be Svenske
21:55:08 <Vorpal> svenske kocken as two words
21:55:14 <elliott> Binary packages on BSD -- cheating or cheating?!
21:55:30 <Vorpal> elliott, cheating when used for initial install!
21:55:40 <elliott> Vorpal: ...uh, all the BSDs initial-install as binary.
21:55:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: i think the swedish king may be special, we like to make fun of him ;D
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21:55:52 <oklopol> another tidbit: an isometry is a function f (between two metric spaces), d(x, y) = d(f(x), f(y)) for all x, y; the isometries from R^2 to R^2 are exactly rotations, translations and "glide reflections", where a glide reflection means you move along a line l, and then reflect around l
21:55:53 <Vorpal> elliott, you should use a stage1-like install! Or even LFS like install!
21:56:15 <pikhq> elliott: NetBSD doesn't necessarily initial-install as binary.
21:56:24 <Vorpal> oklopol, would be "Norges kung" here for your one
21:56:27 <pikhq> elliott: Download build.sh and run it. :D
21:56:30 <elliott> pikhq: it's totally weird that it doesn't come with pkgsrc though
21:56:41 <pikhq> ... Okay, so that bootstraps pkgsrc. Still.
21:56:45 <oerjan> Vorpal: http://ikkepedia.org/wiki/Knugen
21:56:49 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> comex: what? <oklopol> *vorpal
21:56:52 <HackEgo> 240|<oklopol> comex: what? <oklopol> *vorpal
21:57:00 <pikhq> elliott: Technically, pkgsrc is a package manager for all UNIX systems.
21:57:04 <oklopol> comex: hi, tab-complete completed c to comex instead of Vorpal, dunno why
21:57:10 <elliott> There is a binary package installer but no ports by default.
21:57:11 <Vorpal> elliott, v is next to c though
21:57:17 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:57:27 <Vorpal> oklopol, v is next to c
21:57:27 <pikhq> Still, fetch and run ./build.sh
21:57:35 <Vorpal> oklopol, anyway "what" in response to what
21:57:47 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> comex: what? <oklopol> *vorpal <oklopol> comex: hi, tab-complete completed c to comex instead of Vorpal, dunno why
21:57:47 <oklopol> Vorpal: you said something to me you were trying to say to oerjan
21:57:50 <HackEgo> 240|<oklopol> comex: what? <oklopol> *vorpal <oklopol> comex: hi, tab-complete completed c to comex instead of Vorpal, dunno why
21:58:01 <oklopol> "<Vorpal> oklopol, would be "Norges kung" here for your one"
21:58:22 <elliott> finland's king is called bob
21:58:27 <oklopol> i wondered whether this was about the ...autometries of R^2, or about semigroups
21:58:37 <elliott> oerjan: Pressed - President of the Swedish Association dyslexia (ed.: also known as DDR). in 1832 revealed Titten Tei that weighed uses the pseudonym King of Sweden when he is on the party.
21:58:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, you don't use "knugen" about your own one as well?
21:58:47 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quine \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.28221 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:58:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, heck we use it about our own!
21:58:58 <HackEgo> 20:58:53 up 16 days, 2:34, 0 users, load average: 0.85, 0.77, 0.80 \ USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT
21:59:24 <elliott> comex: Yes, it really is; use `run for that; and no, it's not worth trying.
21:59:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, what would "Mil ettert mil" from that page mean?
22:00:11 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:00:18 <elliott> "Mil etter mil" ("Mile after Mile") was the Norwegian entry in the Eurovision Song Contest 1978, performed in Norwegian by Jahn Teigen.
22:00:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: well it would knogen for the norwegian one _if_ we used it, i guess
22:00:26 <elliott> comex: `cmd x y z = `cmd 'x y z'`
22:00:51 <oerjan> i also vaguely recall he _is_ dyslexic as well
22:00:52 <HackEgo> Linux codu.org 2.6.32-5-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Fri Sep 17 22:00:48 UTC 2010 x86_64 GNU/Linux
22:01:11 <elliott> comex: And yes, it is sandboxed more than you can imagine.
22:01:21 <oerjan> (vaguely because i'm not _entirely_ sure if it was him or his father)
22:01:36 <elliott> comex: DON'T LOOK FOR INTERNET FAME HERE, YOU WON'T BE RELEASING A HACKEGO JAILBREAK ANY TIME SOON
22:01:59 <comex> is this the same script I screwed up once? :p
22:02:07 <elliott> and the whole thing is in a plash sandbox
22:02:20 <comex> (but plash is useless without a chroot, so that's redundant)
22:02:27 <oerjan> elliott: "Pressed" is an accidental translation of "knugen" here, the real point being it's an anagram of "kungen" (sv. the king)
22:02:28 <elliott> even if you elevated to root inside plash
22:02:50 <elliott> you'd be running as a user only privileged enough to trash the bot :P
22:03:20 <pikhq> elliott: Besides which, in escaping the chroot all you'd have at your disposal is ld-linux.so.6
22:03:38 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ tmp \ usr
22:03:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is fungot?
22:04:02 <cpressey_> not that fungot ever moves as such
22:04:11 <pikhq> comex: None of those files exist in the chroot.
22:04:15 <Vorpal> cpressey_, it lost connection
22:04:26 <comex> they're through plash?
22:04:35 <pikhq> Yes, that's how plash works.
22:04:35 <oerjan> Vorpal: the norwegian king, yes
22:04:46 <Vorpal> comex, indeed. I checked some time ago using native syscall()
22:04:49 <comex> I wonder if there are any security holes in plash...
22:04:54 <Vorpal> to list what was really there
22:04:54 <comex> the server itself is probably not sandboxed
22:04:57 <pikhq> You get an almost entirely empty chroot, and all access to everything works through the patched libc.
22:05:03 <oerjan> Vorpal: also mil etter mil is "famous" for being one of norway's Eurovision zero-pointers
22:05:10 <pikhq> The server itself is a Xen VM.
22:06:10 <pikhq> The only file in the chroot is /lib/ld-linux.so.6, for the sole purpose of allowing programs to load normally.
22:06:25 <pikhq> Said ld-linux.so.6 is patched to communicate with plash.
22:06:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, it's sad plash is so debian-specific
22:07:05 <elliott> Vorpal: just run it in a debian chroot
22:07:06 <Gregor> It's wonderful that plash is so Debian-specific.
22:07:09 <elliott> even more layers of security!
22:07:17 <Vorpal> elliott, not really but meh :P
22:07:17 <oerjan> Vorpal: "how so"? it got zero points, i say :D
22:07:23 <Gregor> I have all my plashified things in a chroot *shrugs*
22:07:26 <comex> plash source is very complicated.
22:07:39 <elliott> comex: if you can break plash you have bigger targets than HackEgo.
22:07:46 <cpressey_> plash source is radioactive magic faery dust
22:07:53 <Gregor> So I assume we're talking about how to hack Codu? :P
22:07:55 <pikhq> comex: It'd actually work well if they made the patch against normal libc rather than Debian libc.
22:08:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, there was a short network break at home this morning, I guess it may have died during that.
22:08:45 <elliott> Gregor: comex is just living up to his hax0r name, you can tell by the x
22:09:02 <Gregor> Better than xXxcomexXx
22:09:06 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin').
22:09:11 -!- fizzie has joined.
22:09:12 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressex.
22:09:41 -!- fungot has joined.
22:09:54 <fungot> cpressex: i prefer this one: fnord/ local/ lib/ bigloo into ld.so.conf solved it. but i may be ignorant but i see np with the changes
22:10:04 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Grax0r.
22:10:07 <comex> like, where's the server part
22:10:34 <comex> oh I give up, this is too much work for IRC :p
22:10:45 <HackEgo> 218|<alise> Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer.
22:10:46 <Grax0r> That means we can't hax0r anymore.
22:10:49 <HackEgo> 54|<lacota> I guess when you're immortal, mapping your fonts isn't necessary
22:10:55 <HackEgo> 232|<Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
22:11:22 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.29461/bin/quote
22:11:35 <comex> `strings /tmp/hackenv.29641/bin/quote
22:11:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/quote
22:11:56 <oklopol> i don't care what YOU ppl have said
22:11:57 <comex> `run bash -c 'strings /tmp/hackenv.29641/bin/quote' 2>&1
22:11:59 <HackEgo> 48|<oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. 50|<oklopol> i'm not a porn star, no 53|<oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list 56|<oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister 74|<oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your
22:12:01 <HackEgo> 183|* Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. <cpressey> To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia in there.
22:12:05 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/strings: /usr/lib/plash/lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.11' not found (required by /usr/bin/strings)
22:12:36 <Grax0r> comex: 1) It's a shell script, just read it. 2) lawl, strings doesn't work apparently, 3) that /tmp/hackenv.*** path is different for every run.
22:12:41 <HackEgo> 37|<kaelis> so, he.. uh <kaelis> basically probed me with a weasel.
22:12:52 <HackEgo> 38|<Dylan> speaking of pants <Dylan> harry potter movie
22:12:58 <HackEgo> 90|<oklopol> hmm, this is hard
22:13:06 <Grax0r> Phantom_Hoover: HackEgo responds to PM
22:13:43 <cpressex> dearnbsd, no pr0n in pkgsrc why? thx
22:14:01 -!- Grax0r has changed nick to Gregor.
22:14:07 -!- cpressex has changed nick to cpressey_.
22:14:28 <elliott> i do /etc/rc.d/network/start
22:14:34 <Gregor> Dear FreeBSD: The word Free is trademarked by the FSF. Either change your license to the GPL, thereby conforming to the trademark requirements for the word Free, or change the name of your OS.
22:14:58 -!- cal153 has joined.
22:15:11 <elliott> cpressey_: Is... what... did you just say ipv6 for no reason? :P
22:15:45 <cpressey_> elliott: last i used it, it wanted to do IPV6 by default for everything. even if you couldn't
22:15:46 <elliott> cpressey_: I have to use ipv6 for networking to work? :p
22:15:46 <Gregor> The reason: It is the nineties. And there is time for ipv6.
22:15:55 <cpressey_> elliott: no, you have to switch it off
22:16:30 <cpressey_> elliott: you get it though, right? netBSD is THE RIGHT SOLUTION. ipv6 is THE RIGHT SOLUTION. therefore netbsd -> ipv6
22:16:37 <elliott> cpressey_: apparently it tries ipv4 after that
22:17:24 <cpressey_> whoa, google's front page is now gigantic
22:17:44 <Gregor> cheater99: alise is with all of us.
22:18:02 <olsner> alise has joined the earth-mother
22:18:13 <cpressey_> alise was split up into a hundred small pieces and we each got one
22:18:27 <Gregor> This is after joining the earth-mother, mind you.
22:18:37 <Gregor> So we all got some earth-mother too.
22:18:40 <Gregor> Awwww yeah earth-mother.
22:18:52 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, there was a short network break at home this morning, I guess it may have died during that. <-- and the service supervisor didn't restart it?
22:19:06 <olsner> yo dawg, I heard you like earth-mother, etc
22:19:45 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Dear FreeBSD: The word Free is trademarked by the FSF. Either change your license to the GPL, thereby conforming to the trademark requirements for the word Free, or change the name of your OS. <-- err this is a joke right?
22:19:58 <Vorpal> (I can only hope so, but who knows with RMS!)
22:20:39 <elliott> cpressey_: Strange perversion I just gained: I want to write a filesystem!
22:20:56 <Gregor> elliott: You'll have to kill your wife first
22:21:01 <pikhq> Gregor: The BSD license is sufficiently Free for the FSF. :)
22:21:08 <elliott> Gregor: First I have to Russian mail-order her.
22:21:12 <pikhq> It merely goes further than they'd like.
22:21:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: It shouldn't be that hard to guess that it's still not installed as a proper service. You don't need to mention that every time.
22:21:19 <olsner> Gregor: no, that goes after writing the file system, IIRC
22:21:24 <elliott> We demand rigidly-defined areas of doubt and unFreeness!
22:21:41 <olsner> Gregor: Sweden is unanimous: After.
22:23:02 <elliott> In Sweden we are very civilised.
22:23:10 <elliott> We only kill our wives after letting them see our glorious pen-- filesystem.
22:23:18 <elliott> Ha ha, Americans! WHAT NOW
22:23:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:24:15 <Vorpal> there is an exception. You can call it ext<n+1> where n is the currently highest number in use. In that case everyone will find you too boring to bother about killing wives.
22:24:41 <elliott> Ted Ts'o has killed SO MANY of his wives, but who cares about ext4?
22:25:01 <olsner> In Sweden we are so civilised that we often don't even kill our wives!
22:25:11 <elliott> olsner: ...for the first few years!
22:25:20 <cheater99> is there some linux file system murder streak happening again?
22:25:26 <olsner> then again, we often don't write filesystems either, I may just be lacking data
22:26:16 <elliott> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/so-i-married-a-kernel-programmer
22:26:24 <elliott> Everybody loves Everybody Loves Eric Raymond.#
22:26:50 <elliott> note: "not" in the caption is <blink>'d if your browser doesn't display it
22:26:52 <olsner> I wonder what would happen to a married pair of lesbian filesystem writers in this glorious wife-killing world
22:27:09 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:27:21 <pikhq> olsner: Suicide cult.
22:28:49 <elliott> As a gay vampire, Phantom_Hoover wants none of this.
22:29:50 <olsner> most gay vampires are not eligible for this meme since they don't usually have or become wives
22:30:11 <Sgeo> Also, rages at Sine
22:30:22 <elliott> Sgeo: what have they done now?
22:30:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> As a gay vampire, Phantom_Hoover wants none of this. <-- wait, what?
22:30:45 <elliott> Vorpal: fungot called Phantom_Hoover a gay vampire once and i will never stop calling him one
22:30:45 <fungot> elliott: okay i guess i don't know...
22:30:46 <Sgeo> Failed to provide a way to connect
22:30:52 <elliott> Oh. fungot now expresses doubt that Phantom_Hoover is a gay vampire.
22:30:52 <fungot> elliott: and you subscribe to classes too? :) i don't know that about unix, just how to subclass it.
22:31:04 <elliott> fungot is now back in its native hallucinatory state.
22:31:05 <fungot> elliott: what is the simplest, and it's the kind of fnord parts. for example in haskell:
22:31:54 <Vorpal> elliott, hey, answer fungot's question, it is rude to not do so!
22:31:54 <fungot> Vorpal: there is such a thing
22:32:13 <Vorpal> fungot, such as thing as rudeness? Indeed
22:32:14 <fungot> Vorpal: by the way.) you should probably find a toc on their site about it, if its fancy you can always run it through stalin to get more people than you, too. ;p don't know about
22:32:50 <Vorpal> fungot, Through stalin hm. Need a time machine then.
22:32:50 <fungot> Vorpal: alt key of course, i think it's up to fnord
22:33:21 <Vorpal> you mean I just need an alt key and some fnord? wow
22:33:49 <olsner> fungot rhymes with ergot is a fungus, which shares a prefix with fungot
22:34:00 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, correct, but it conceded that it wasn't sure whether I was gay. Or a vampire.
22:34:00 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it means experience is limited to two-argument functions)
22:34:44 <olsner> elliott: how does fungot generate this? is it some kind of markov chain?
22:34:45 <fungot> olsner: that's not particularly helpful :p those people kept beating each other on the even/ odd
22:34:56 <Vorpal> that would explain why you need to check man pages for stuff like connect() or open()
22:34:59 <olsner> fungot: sorry for not being more helpful...
22:35:00 <fungot> olsner: and i was unable to fnord revision lock ( 403 forbidden)
22:35:18 <elliott> ask fizzie for more details
22:35:23 <olsner> markov chains are funny
22:35:31 <Vorpal> olsner, read the source to find out more
22:35:33 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
22:35:45 <Vorpal> olsner, I believe they are pre-generated by a perl script
22:35:56 <Vorpal> and it then seeks in a file (using FILE)
22:37:24 <fizzie> There's also a thing that can use any n-gram models in the standard-ish ARPA format that I wrote for using our varikn toolkit.
22:38:14 <elliott> like anyone understands that code :)
22:38:26 <fizzie> It's possible to formulate it in a markov-chainian framework, though it's not exactly the usual "dissociated-press" markov chain; there the algorithm is to copy text verbatim, and at opportunate places with some specific probability jump into another place in the text with the same context.
22:38:45 <Vorpal> elliott, um, fizzie does I think
22:38:52 <Vorpal> elliott, and I understand some parts of it
22:39:07 <elliott> "Larry Niven already invented T-Rex's Law? That's crazy! ...Why do you think he named it after me?" --T-Rex
22:39:09 <Vorpal> elliott, with a lot of work I could figure it out completely
22:39:12 <fizzie> In fungot's case it only has the limited context, not a position-in-text, and it chooses the next word based on the conditional probability from the n-gram model.
22:39:13 <fungot> fizzie: which book are you talking about? :p :) you fnord your code?
22:39:28 <olsner> I understand exactly nothing of it, but I'm guessing that ^, <, >, v change the direction of the instruction pointer's movement
22:39:50 <elliott> olsner: YAY YOU GUESSED CORRECTLY
22:39:55 <elliott> fizzie: Add a Dinosaur Comics style.
22:41:13 <elliott> Anyone got NetBSD networking working under qemu?
22:41:57 <olsner> elliott: if only alise was here, I bet alise would know exactly how to do that
22:42:21 <elliott> olsner: Too bad she's with the earth mother.
22:42:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://xkcd.com/169/
22:42:47 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the issue?
22:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal: "It doesn't work."
22:43:02 <elliott> Vorpal: /etc/rc.d/network starts properly, no nameserver, nothing works
22:43:03 <Vorpal> elliott, shouldn't it just be to start the virtual network interface and then start dhcp on it?
22:43:13 <elliott> ifconfig -l lists only lo0
22:43:14 <Vorpal> elliott, can you ping any ips?
22:43:23 <Vorpal> elliott, ifconfig -a ?
22:43:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But you did try and mislead me based on a technicality...
22:43:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Gimme an IP to ping :P
22:43:47 <Vorpal> elliott, "your router"?
22:44:00 <Vorpal> elliott, from what I remember network config is not very automatic on netbsd
22:44:01 <elliott> Using default qemu settings
22:44:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is that bit about ^
22:45:01 <Vorpal> why does it parse URLs?
22:46:02 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know what'd be amazing (if somewhat silly)? A distro hosting all files using BitTorrent.
22:46:06 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.nct.org.uk/press-office/press-releases/view/224 O.o
22:47:12 <elliott> Dammit pikhq, decentralisation is not a panacea :P
22:47:27 <cheater99> wow, i have actually found an ftp link on the internet
22:47:31 <cpressey_> i have someone else fnord my own code for me
22:47:44 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, but BitTorrent is a good solution to hosting. Make it with HTTP seeds.
22:47:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's incomplete; it's supposed to have a load-code-from-URL feature at some point.
22:48:16 <elliott> I bet it's in the TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY SCIENCE course.
22:48:26 <elliott> TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY BULLSHIT ETHICAL QUESTIONS
22:48:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, though I need H from SCKE (or NSCK or whatnot) for more human-friendly URLs.
22:48:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I know people who did some sort of GCSE chemistry paper earlier this year; I should ask them...
22:49:01 <elliott> [[Charities working to support mothers who want to breastfeed are also negatively caricatured in the question, in the guise of ‘Mrs I M Right’, founder of fictional organisation ‘Responsible Mothers Are Us’.
22:49:01 <elliott> Her extreme views are framed by a reference to the fact that she has ‘made a career in ‘goodness’ and is paid from donations given to RMAU by members of the public’.]]
22:49:50 <elliott> [[Calcium carbonate occurs naturally as marble and limestone. They are important building materials and are often used for gravestones. Calcium carbonate is also an essential mineral for good health and is present in many baby foods in small amounts.My Baby Food is recommended as being the closest to a mother’s own breast milk. It is given free to mothers in the developing world – without it their babies might die of malnutrition.Responsible Mothers
22:49:51 <elliott> Are Us (RMAU) is a United Kingdom pressure group. They want to ban chemicals in baby foods. The group was founded by Mrs I. M. Right who has made a career in ‘goodness’ and is paid from donations given to RMAU by members of the public. When interviewed, she said: “Calcium carbonate is a chemical and so it is a pollutant. My Baby Food must be banned to prevent the mass medication of babies. I don’t feed my baby the stuff of gravestones.”
22:49:51 <elliott> Many people do not agree with Mrs Right’s ideas. Suggest why.]]
22:50:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, NSCK is on hold until I figure how how to support SCTP
22:51:10 <Vorpal> as in: a good API for SCTP
22:52:53 <elliott> cpressey_: what's a regular ethernet interface called on netbsd?
22:53:44 <cpressey_> network interface names were based on (get this) the driver used
22:53:58 <cpressey_> so broadcom was like 'bc0', 'bc1', etc
22:53:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so wait, 20th Century Science is /literally the only science education your school provides/?
22:54:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It may have others but -- it's the one they basically do.
22:54:37 <elliott> I am hoping to see if I can get a better course.
22:55:00 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah on freebsd it is based on driver. bc0, en0, and so on
22:55:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what about for whatever you weird people in England do after GCSE?
22:56:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think there's Twenty First Century A-Level.
22:56:28 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:57:16 <elliott> But yeah, it's still the physics/biology/chemistry trio.
22:57:17 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but can you do A-Level without doing any prior stuff?
22:58:20 <elliott> Uh. Theoretically I guess.
22:58:23 <elliott> I doubt anyone would let you.
23:00:56 <fizzie> One of the BSDs used "en0" as the most-likely Ethernet interface, but I can't recall which one.
23:02:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seen en0 on freebsd, I seen br0 on freebsd too
23:02:39 <Vorpal> I think it was en0 for intel's gbit thingy
23:04:31 <fizzie> I do think OpenBSD had driver-specific names, with ne0 for the ne2k driver and something rather stranger for the SBUS ethernet.
23:06:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what was SBUS?
23:06:39 <fizzie> It's a bit like PCI except in some sparc boxen.
23:06:54 <fizzie> Well, it was a router.
23:06:54 <pikhq> Hmm. I just realised that one can make trackerless torrents really easily, and that this is an awesome means of sharing files when you don't have a web host. MWAHAHAHAH.
23:07:32 <fizzie> The box had onboard le0, and then I couldn't find a plain SBUS network card, so I got one with both ethernet and an additional SCSI interface too. I don't think I ever connected anything to the SCSI side, since it had on-board SCSI too.
23:07:39 <pikhq> So, anyone want something completely random off my hard drive? I can make data URIs of the xz'd torrent file! :P
23:10:59 <pikhq> (note: probably overkill for anything I've written myself)
23:15:54 <pikhq> Aaah, wait. I could just hand the relevant magnet URI. \o/
23:16:36 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Works just fine.
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23:41:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it works on clients with left-aligned nicks
23:42:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:46:58 <pikhq> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:12cba1cfeb9a4b96b791a5697f31075e4888814e&dn=ski&tr=http%3A%2F%2Ftracker.publicbt.com%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3A80%2Fannounce It be a torrent for half a meg!
23:47:44 <pikhq> Sorry, for 39 kilobytes. Hooray, MORE USELESS!
23:49:36 <elliott> pikhq: But what IS it man???
23:49:39 <Sgeo> What... torrent?
23:49:43 <pikhq> elliott: My SKI interpreter.
23:49:49 <cpressey_> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/usr.sbin/chroot/chroot.c?rev=1.13
23:49:54 <elliott> pikhq: RIP meaningful URIs
23:49:59 <pikhq> elliott: That somebody wanted a few days ago and I couldn't get uploaded to filebin for I DON'T KNOW WHY
23:50:10 <elliott> pikhq: sometime -- whenever pikhq discovered magnet links
23:50:23 <elliott> Eulogy: "I never liked knowing what I was about to click, anyway."
23:50:38 <elliott> pikhq: Also, you have http URIs in there :-O Clearly we need torrent trackers to be distributed by DHT.
23:50:56 <pikhq> elliott: The tracker exchange protocol is not commonly supported yet.
23:50:57 <elliott> cpressey_: nothin' wrong with a nicely-placed goto in C
23:51:02 <elliott> pikhq: YOU'RE not commonly supported yet.
23:51:21 <pikhq> elliott: If it weren't for that, then yeah, I'd just say "fuck the tracker URIs".
23:51:25 <cpressey_> elliott: oh, but this is argument-parsing code.
23:51:36 <elliott> pikhq: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:12cba1cfeb9a4b96b791a5697f31075e4888814e&dn=ski
23:51:57 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, fine, so you can just do without the trackers, too.
23:52:53 <elliott> pikhq: Like I said, the trackers are distributed over DHT.
23:53:31 <cpressey_> should just be syscalls + some scripting language, is what i think, every time i look at one of these sources. oh well
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23:53:53 <pikhq> elliott: I need a better program for generating torrent files. Like, one that doesn't require listing a tracker.
23:54:21 <pikhq> You realise torrent files are binary, right?
23:54:33 <elliott> pikhq: What, your terminal too much of a wimpy bitch to handle binary input?
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00:05:23 <pikhq> Fuck it. Guess I should make a torrent creator.
00:05:57 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:07:17 <Sgeo> Why not in Brainfuck+PSOX while he's at it?
00:07:50 <pikhq> elliott: Gag gag gag gag.
00:08:12 <elliott> pikhq: okay in x86-64 assembly, using win32
00:09:46 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Muxcomp
00:10:53 <elliott> pikhq: I propose we redesign networks.
00:12:33 <elliott> lifthrasiir: "infinte" --Versert spec
00:13:44 <pikhq> Aaaargh. A trackerless torrent should have a "nodes" key, with some number of DHT nodes close to the generating client.
00:14:10 <pikhq> Or a single known good node operated by the person generating the torrent.
00:14:33 <pikhq> ... Wait. That could just be the initial seeder.
00:15:10 <elliott> pikhq: but then what if you die forever ???
00:15:13 <pikhq> And if you have no intention of sharing the actual torrent *file*, one could simply generate a file with 127.0.0.1.
00:15:19 <elliott> pikhq: i suggest the strongly that you just omit it
00:15:22 <Sgeo> So 64-bit machines can handle up to 16 exabytes of RAM?
00:15:47 <elliott> Sgeo: 64-bit memory bus, yes. x86-64, no.
00:16:07 <elliott> Although virtual addresses are 64 bits wide in 64-bit mode, current implementations (and any chips known to be in the planning stages) do not allow the entire virtual address space of 264 bytes (16 EB) to be used. Most operating systems and applications will not need such a large address space for the foreseeable future (for example, Windows implementations for AMD64 are only populating 16 TB, or 44 bits' worth), so implementing such wide virtual address
00:16:07 <elliott> es would simply increase the complexity and cost of address translation with no real benefit. AMD therefore decided that, in the first implementations of the architecture, only the least significant 48 bits of a virtual address would actually be used in address translation (page table lookup).[1](p130) Further, bits 48 through 63 of any virtual address must be copies of bit 47 (in a manner akin to sign extension), or the processor will raise an exception
00:16:08 <elliott> . Addresses complying with this rule are referred to as "canonical form."[1](p128) Canonical form addresses run from 0 through 00007FFF`FFFFFFFF, and from FFFF8000`00000000 through FFFFFFFF`FFFFFFFF, for a total of 256 TB of usable virtual address space.
00:16:10 <pikhq> elliott: Magnet URIs do not contain the nodes key, nor does the metadata shared in order to make a magnet URI work.
00:16:25 <elliott> pikhq: Then it doesn't matter, right?
00:16:56 * Sgeo wants more than 256TB RAM!
00:17:10 <comex> It's a very good thing that that's enforced.
00:17:12 <pikhq> elliott: Except that clients will expect it.
00:17:37 <pikhq> elliott: I think I'll have it default to 127.0.0.1 for trackerless torrents, with a note that this may not work if you share the torrent file itself.
00:18:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:18:31 <elliott> pikhq: Try it with clients.
00:18:45 <elliott> canonical addresses or nodes in torrents
00:19:00 <comex> canonical addresses
00:19:29 <elliott> comex: i don't really see it as a very good thing per se
00:19:33 <elliott> just a feature of the architecture
00:19:47 <comex> people won't stuff random stuff info the high bits :p
00:20:10 <elliott> comex: well there can always be other protections against that
00:20:20 <comex> actually, that annoys me because I had forgotten about it and I wanted to do something where the high 32 bits of an address was a CRC or something
00:20:41 <elliott> you could just say that it's an implementation detail
00:20:44 <elliott> rather than being actually sanctioned
00:20:54 <elliott> but i guess x86-64 is aggressively practical in the bad way :(
00:22:06 <Sgeo> What would be the purpose of stuffing random stuff into the high bits? Is there any realistic chance that something would break?
00:22:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Uhh, yes, when new memory comes out.
00:22:52 <pikhq> elliott: Oh hells yeah, it works.
00:22:59 <elliott> Your extra 256 TiB would be useless since people would stuff bullshit into the high bits used to access them.
00:23:18 <elliott> pikhq: Gimme a DHT link for a file you just started seeding
00:23:25 <elliott> I wanna see if my client is magical
00:23:54 <pikhq> elliott: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:12cba1cfeb9a4b96b791a5697f31075e4888814e&dn=ski
00:24:02 <elliott> pikhq: That's something already published.
00:24:12 <elliott> Let's see if BitTorrent can perform magic.
00:24:18 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, I'll go ahead and make some /dev/random .
00:24:37 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, currently I'm just editing a trackered torrent file to remove everything but the info dictionary.
00:24:40 <pikhq> (it's *mostly* ASCII)
00:25:21 <pikhq> Yuh, it's bencode.
00:26:02 <pikhq> But it works. Barely.
00:26:20 <elliott> pikhq: I AM EAGERLY AWAITING YOUR RANDOMNESS
00:27:07 <pikhq> elliott: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:821267eb9478f17f8632867ff1eb27d7990dcbaf&dn=random%5Fdata
00:27:28 <elliott> pikhq: It isn't listing the files to download :D
00:27:31 <elliott> I'll just assume it'll figure them out.
00:27:38 <elliott> I'm about to hit download.
00:28:05 <pikhq> elliott: Yuh, seeding.
00:28:24 <elliott> pikhq: Unsurprisingly, it doesn't work. At all.
00:28:30 <pikhq> elliott: And yeah, it'll only know what files are *in* the torrent once it's downloaded the info dictionary saying what's *in* the torrent.
00:28:37 <elliott> Turns out my machine cannot magically find your machine given a URN!
00:28:47 <pikhq> It'll take some time to find me from the DHT.
00:28:56 <elliott> ...it'll actually find you?
00:29:02 <elliott> I don't think Transmission knows of any peers near me.
00:29:15 <elliott> I've used this to download exactly one thing, NetBSD.
00:29:26 <pikhq> It's got to bootstrap DHT.
00:29:45 <pikhq> Each torrent client has one DHT node hardcoded.
00:29:53 <elliott> pikhq: How many hours will this take?
00:29:56 <pikhq> *Just* in case you aren't peered with anyone.
00:30:01 <elliott> And why won't it give me verbose progress indicators?
00:30:05 <elliott> It is sitting completely still.
00:30:12 <pikhq> It will once it has a clue.
00:30:24 <elliott> pikhq: It's downloading metadata from 0 peers.
00:30:27 <elliott> I am not convinced this will work.
00:30:37 <pikhq> Shouldn't take long, but it'll go faster if you get on another torrent.
00:32:17 <elliott> pikhq: The latest Ubuntu should do, right?
00:32:18 <Sgeo> Time to play more Portal
00:32:20 <elliott> That'll have a lot of peers.
00:32:26 <elliott> Also, are you using Transmission?
00:32:59 * elliott waits for the Ubuntu torrent to start, re-adds yours
00:33:01 <pikhq> If you really want it to go fast, I could get in on the latest Ubuntu, too.
00:33:11 <pikhq> (hand me the magnet URI, with trackers)
00:33:21 <Sgeo> All this for a small binary file?
00:33:27 <elliott> pikhq: Do you have other torrents going?
00:33:35 <elliott> It's still from 0 peers :(
00:33:40 <elliott> pikhq: Let's just hope there's overlap.
00:33:42 <elliott> Sgeo: It's a proof of concept.
00:33:45 <elliott> pikhq: How big is the file, anyway?
00:34:50 <elliott> pikhq: Connected to 112 peers on the Ubuntu tracker, still downloading metadata from 0 peers on yours.
00:36:00 <elliott> pikhq: This... yeah, yours isn't doing shit.
00:36:13 <pikhq> Hand me the magnet uri without trackers? :P
00:36:44 <elliott> pikhq: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:bcf2e587afd4d3b1bdd8ece5150d9fb4d2958af4&dn=ubuntu-10.10-desktop-i386.iso
00:37:48 <elliott> pikhq: I sure hope you get connected before mine finishes downloading.
00:38:07 <elliott> pikhq: Proposal: Torrent clients come with, like, 5,000 DHT peers.
00:38:27 <elliott> These are randomly selected, weighted by speed/reliability/connections/etc., from a gigantic pool of DHT peers.
00:38:29 <pikhq> I think you get the picture.
00:38:37 <elliott> Each release, a new set is substituted.
00:38:44 <elliott> Thus everybody gets a DHT network built-in.
00:39:09 <pikhq> You are not among those peers.
00:39:30 <pikhq> Hmm. Wait. Are you behind a NAT that you can't punch a hole through?
00:39:43 <elliott> pikhq: I have tons of peers from DHT.
00:39:52 <elliott> Let's see if my incoming port is open.
00:40:00 <elliott> If not I can easily forward it.
00:40:02 <elliott> pikhq: I think that may be the case.
00:40:07 <elliott> New OS install, forget to change the port...
00:40:35 <pikhq> Yeah, that'll make DHT work less well.
00:41:01 <elliott> pikhq: Is the "port for incoming connections" TCP or UDP?
00:41:06 <elliott> i.e. do I want 51420 or 6881
00:41:33 <pikhq> Try UDP too, I guess.
00:41:45 <elliott> pikhq: I am now attempting your random_data torrent without being connected to the Ubuntu one.
00:42:15 <elliott> pikhq: Are you 75.173.238.244?
00:42:27 <elliott> WHY WON'T YOUR CLIENT TALK TO ME
00:42:37 <elliott> "but we're not interested"
00:42:40 <elliott> WHY NOT YOU STUPID FUCKING CLIENT
00:42:56 <pikhq> Wanting more peers, rather than the sole seeder?
00:43:12 <elliott> Well ... fuck that, you don't make my decisions for me Transmission :P
00:43:23 <elliott> pikhq: Any way to punch it and make it download?
00:43:40 <pikhq> None that I know of.
00:44:08 <pikhq> Restart it? I dunno. It ought to retain the info dictionary.
00:44:39 <elliott> It's forgotten you exist :P
00:44:48 <elliott> pikhq: It's actually still trying to download the metadata.
00:44:52 <elliott> Apparently you're just not good enough.
00:45:37 <elliott> pikhq: "Created on 01 Jan 1970"
00:46:19 <catseye> WEREN'T EXPECTING THAT, WERE YOU
00:46:30 <elliott> catseye: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:821267eb9478f17f8632867ff1eb27d7990dcbaf&dn=random%5Fdata
00:46:40 <elliott> catseye: put this in transmission's File -> Add URL...
00:46:50 <elliott> and hope that it helps me find happiness ;______;
00:47:41 <comex> (23:54:19) Could not find any trackers
00:47:51 <comex> (it says that instantly, no wait...)
00:47:56 <pikhq> comex: Well, yes, there aren't any trackers.
00:48:07 <pikhq> rtorrent, BTW, is rather stupid about its DHT support.
00:48:08 <elliott> comex: wait for the love to come pouring in
00:48:15 <elliott> rtorrent is like the worst client ever
00:48:15 <comex> I thought rtorrent supported DHT
00:48:20 <pikhq> You need to make a session dir for it to work.
00:48:31 <elliott> Mathnerd314: TOGETHER WE CAN OVERCOME THE FASCIST DEPENDENCY ON "TRACKERS"
00:48:46 <elliott> pikhq: btw, do clients remember their DHT peers even after restarts?
00:49:02 <comex> I want (a) to be able to select individual files, (b) command line operation, (c) magnet URI
00:49:09 <pikhq> elliott: I *think* so, but I'm not sure.
00:49:15 <pikhq> comex: transmission-cli
00:49:19 <elliott> comex: oh come on, rtorrent is not command-line
00:49:34 <elliott> it's a shitty gui that you poke random letters to operate and then deal with its terrible character-based representation of a badly-designed GUI
00:49:38 <comex> fine, that's not command line :p
00:49:45 <pikhq> comex: It also runs an HTTP server.
00:49:54 <elliott> yeah transmission's web server thing is great
00:49:58 <elliott> or you could just run the daemon
00:50:11 <pikhq> Or the HTTP server.
00:50:16 <elliott> run the daemon, which powers the web server
00:50:19 <elliott> and use both the web server and the remote!
00:50:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:50:33 <comex> web servers are fiddly
00:50:40 <elliott> comex: it has a command to set it up for you
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00:50:50 <pikhq> comex: It just works.
00:50:54 <comex> and I'm in SSH anyway to start it, might as well manage it from there
00:51:01 <comex> I don't want to keep it running at all times.
00:51:04 <elliott> pikhq: I propose we all download http://releases.ubuntu.com/maverick/ubuntu-10.10-desktop-i386.iso.torrent
00:51:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: http://releases.ubuntu.com/maverick/ubuntu-10.10-desktop-i386.iso.torrent
00:51:17 <elliott> Mathnerd314: This is our tracker; download it :P
00:52:48 <elliott> pikhq: If we can actually get this working, I propose we create a torrent listing site for trackerless torernts.
00:53:33 <elliott> pikhq: I also propose that it offers a trackered 10 megabyte file of /dev/random that users are recommended to connect to regularly to aid peer discovery :P
00:53:33 <Mathnerd314> so let me figure this out... I download all of ubuntu 10.10 to download this other one file?
00:53:47 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Well, yes. Actually it should just let us find each other.
00:53:53 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Are you connected to a peer for random_data?
00:54:11 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Downloading Ubuntu Smelly Socks?
00:54:18 <pikhq> Oh, look, I am connected to a Deluge client.
00:54:40 <elliott> pikhq: But since my client is PMSing, it refuses to listen to you, and so I can never discover Mathnerd314 apart from with the Ubuntu torrent.
00:54:43 <pikhq> Let's see if either of you guys actually try downloading anything. You're both unchoked.
00:54:45 <elliott> Mathnerd314: In conclusion: CONNECT TO THAT TORRENT
00:54:46 <pikhq> And I'm the sole seed.
00:54:59 <elliott> Mathnerd314: 178.120.245.138
00:55:22 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Dood, if you're not downloading Ubuntu, just do it, it'll help both of us :P
00:55:51 <comex> why do you want ubuntu
00:56:05 <comex> and why do you want an iso
00:56:11 <comex> with about half of what you need and a lot of stuff you don't
00:56:20 <elliott> comex: it's because it has a shitload of peers
00:56:25 <comex> and why do you want i386
00:56:32 <elliott> IT'S BECAUSE IT HAS A SHITLOAD OF PEERS MORON :|
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00:56:37 <comex> direct download works fine :p
00:56:47 <elliott> We are doing this to *find peers* for the *other thing*.
00:56:53 <elliott> Direct download has *nothing to do with it*.
00:57:09 <elliott> And, say, what did you install your last OS with? A floppy disk image?
00:57:17 <pikhq> DOWNLOAD FROM ME FOR I HAVE UNCHOKED YOU
00:57:17 <pikhq> AND I AM THE SOLE SEED
00:58:12 <comex> and that's pretty funny, actually
00:58:25 <elliott> netboot is an utter waste of time. there is nothing wrong with .isos
00:58:44 <Mathnerd314> so who is 75.173.238.244:51413 ? that's the only person I see
00:59:35 <elliott> and your client is being huffy towards him
01:00:05 <pikhq> It's not downloading from me.
01:00:30 <pikhq> It should download from the only seed.
01:01:01 <pikhq> But instead everybody's being all huffy about it.
01:01:25 <comex> I was installing an OS onto a computer that didn't have a CD drive
01:02:56 <elliott> pikhq: This does not work.
01:02:59 <elliott> pikhq: Would it have worked even if you specified yourself in the nodes?
01:03:22 <pikhq> elliott: Dude, you have absolutely no information about what the nodes entry could have been.
01:03:44 <elliott> pikhq: I mean -- if you gave it in a .torrent.
01:04:05 <pikhq> When you use a magnet URI, the only information beyond what's in the magnet URI is checksums, filenames, and file sizes.
01:04:15 <elliott> pikhq: But in a .torrent, would it have worked?
01:04:21 <elliott> If you gave me a .torrent.
01:04:39 <pikhq> There's a chance it'd work with a tracker.
01:05:18 <elliott> pikhq: Say, is &dn= actually required?
01:05:21 <pikhq> The thing is, your clients seem convinced that if they hold out they can have more peers.
01:05:34 <pikhq> No, it just makes it look less shitty.
01:05:53 <elliott> pikhq: Come to think of it... the way you use magnet: is kinda silly there.
01:05:58 <elliott> Why not just say urn:btih:821267eb9478f17f8632867ff1eb27d7990dcbaf?
01:06:09 <elliott> You basically have foo:?bar=a-urn
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01:06:21 <pikhq> Because a magnet URI can be pasted directly into a client.
01:06:44 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, it would be supercool if a torrent could actually be identified and downloaded entirely by magnet:?xt=urn:btih:821267eb9478f17f8632867ff1eb27d7990dcbaf.
01:06:49 <elliott> I charge you with figuring out how to make clients like it.
01:06:58 <elliott> pikhq: (Perhaps just getting about 10 seeders first would work?)
01:07:05 <catseye> elliott: Transmission has no such menu "File"
01:07:18 <pikhq> elliott: Try downloading this: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:bcf2e587afd4d3b1bdd8ece5150d9fb4d2958af4
01:07:21 <elliott> catseye: Yes... it does...
01:07:50 <pikhq> That's how it's supposed to work.
01:08:00 <elliott> pikhq: and no torrents either!
01:08:16 <elliott> catseye: http://www.transmissionbt.com/images/screenshots/GTK-Large.jpg
01:08:30 <catseye> New... source: paste in that magnet link, click "New", and... Transmission go bye bye
01:08:44 <pikhq> Okay, I think we can conclude that trackerless *kinda* sucks with small torrents.
01:09:08 <elliott> pikhq: Now you get to figure out how to make it not suck.
01:09:14 <elliott> pikhq: Coerce a client to download from one peer!
01:09:21 <elliott> pikhq: If you have to patch it, so be it :P
01:09:22 <catseye> elliott: "Torrent | Add..." prompts me for a file
01:09:29 <elliott> catseye: http://www.transmissionbt.com/images/screenshots/GTK-Large.jpg
01:09:39 <elliott> Press that on your Transmission.
01:09:44 <catseye> elliott: My transmission is DIFFERENT.
01:09:52 <elliott> catseye: Ookayyy... screenshot?
01:11:22 <catseye> elliott: http://imgur.com/OxBeJ.png
01:11:38 <elliott> catseye: sudo apt-get upgrade :p
01:12:54 <catseye> elliott: am at best will have I on Ibex. not upgrading version of Ubuntu tonite. sorry
01:13:04 <catseye> maybe compile xmission from source, but later.
01:13:07 <elliott> catseye: upgrade is not distro upgrade
01:13:16 <elliott> catseye: upgrade is just repo upgrade
01:13:28 <pikhq> elliott: Fortunately, using publicbt or openbittorrent is really really simple...
01:13:29 <catseye> elliott: how else you convice pkg mgr give you good shit huh?
01:13:33 <pikhq> elliott: You just list that as the tracker. That's it.
01:13:35 <elliott> pikhq: openbittorrent never freaking works
01:13:45 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, just publicbt then.
01:13:46 <elliott> catseye: what drug did you just take?
01:14:17 <elliott> Quadlex: HAPPY HAPPY FUN FUN
01:14:38 <catseye> elliott: HD#)@HSLNLA>MM WA WAWAWA WA
01:14:48 <elliott> catseye: no seriously what
01:14:54 <elliott> <catseye> maybe compile xmission from source, but later.
01:15:15 <elliott> wonder if there's still a warty warthog user going around
01:15:45 <elliott> catseye: so you'll totally use kitten RIGHT???
01:15:51 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, I see. Openbittorrent seems not to have HTTP tracking any more.
01:16:16 <elliott> "We kindly ask you not to use the OBT trackers in torrents resulting in unauthorized distribution of copyrighted files (movies, music, games and so on)."
01:16:29 <elliott> "If you want to add OBT to a massive amount of torrents, you must ask us first.
01:16:30 <elliott> Don't add OBT as the default tracker when torrents are uploaded on your site without our written consent."
01:16:39 <elliott> pikhq: it's neither open nor a tracker for anything people actually want!
01:16:50 <elliott> OpenBitTorrent, the non-open non-tracker!
01:17:08 <pikhq> elliott: It tracks, just not using HTTP+TCP.
01:17:08 <elliott> "A few pointers to people considering sending DMCA takedown notices:" But but I thought people weren't meant to use them for copyrighted things.
01:17:14 <catseye> if only it were also ternary
01:17:33 <pikhq> elliott: publicbt, on the other hand, says nothing about usage.
01:17:50 <elliott> pikhq: DHT, on the other hand, does not require relying on anybody.
01:18:11 <elliott> pikhq: I propose we tweak clients / write our own client to be saner when faced with small DHT torrents.
01:18:16 <pikhq> elliott: Except "If you want to scrape for stats on torrents here, grab the entire set of stats instead of scraping for each torrent."
01:18:36 <elliott> "OpenBitTorrent has been suspected of being a part of or a side project of The Pirate Bay, because it was observed early on that both sites used the same trackers.[2] The OpenBitTorrent project has countered by stating that the sites merely shared a tracker cluster operated by DCP Networks and Fredrik Neij during a startup period (February through August 2009)."
01:18:43 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, DHT is in addition to the tracker, so you don't really *depend* on it.
01:19:13 <elliott> pikhq: I tells ya. We need to make a DHT-only client.
01:19:16 <pikhq> Except that it seems not to work in the pathological case of 1 seed.
01:19:45 <pikhq> elliott: WOULD YOU LIKE A COPY? IF SO, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT?
01:19:58 <pikhq> ... Screw it. filebin.ca
01:20:07 <elliott> pikhq: Of... what? random_data?
01:21:19 * pikhq tries creating a torrent with a web seed from codu.org.
01:21:22 <elliott> pikhq: Basically if we just take an existing client, rip out all the tracker code, and add a smarter rule for when to download from clients...
01:23:09 <elliott> pikhq: If you don't do that, I totally will :P
01:23:12 <elliott> But right now, I will sleep.
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01:24:21 <pikhq> Fun fact: Transmission doesn't copy web seeds into the magnet URI.
01:25:02 <pikhq> Aaah, that's because there is no spec for that yet.
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01:32:58 <catseye> "The gnutella protocol remains under development and in spite of attempts to make a clean break with the complexity inherited from the old gnutella 0.4 and to design a clean new message architecture, it is still one of the most successful file-sharing protocols to date."
01:33:18 <catseye> ... "in spite of attempts to make it better, it's good"?
01:34:35 <pikhq> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:23000501613b867e5b269b7ec15e76b8accdb784&dn=GRegor-op13-mov1.ogg&ws=http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1.ogg MWAHAHAHA
01:34:36 <Sgeo> elliot, was playing Portal
01:35:38 <pikhq> Someone wanna try that?
01:38:41 <pikhq> Gregor: You were convenient.
01:44:16 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: And now?
01:46:04 <pikhq> Try restarting the torrent
01:47:38 <pikhq> Weird; it should at *least* be connecting and fetching the torrent file.
01:52:33 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: maybe you meant xs instead of ws in your magnet?
01:55:30 * Sgeo is going to try TAG
01:58:54 <Sgeo> https://www.digipen.edu/studentprojects/tag/
02:01:27 <Sgeo> That's not the.. I don't know what that is
02:01:35 <Sgeo> "Download Tag"
02:01:55 <Sgeo> BTW, it was the inspiration for one of Portal 2's game mechanics
02:02:02 <Sgeo> And Valve hired the people who made it
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03:26:16 <catseye> @tell oerjan we have a note-taker bot now.
03:26:26 <catseye> @tell elliot we have a note-taker bot now.
03:26:41 <catseye> @tell ais523 we have a note-taker bot now.
03:27:33 <Sgeo> And I'm not considered worthy
03:28:50 <catseye> @tell Sgeo I figured that since you were in the US you would probably see this before you went to sleep.
03:29:15 <storkbot> Sgeo: catseye told me to tell you: I figured that since you were in the US you would probably see this before you went to sleep.
03:33:37 <catseye> @tell elliott we have a note-taker bot now.
03:35:27 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:42:33 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:43:07 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:43:21 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:44:19 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:44:28 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:45:09 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:45:44 <Mathnerd314> why does it keep saying "My hovercraft is full of eels."?
03:45:56 <catseye> Mathnerd314: that's it's "no translation found" error message.
03:50:08 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20W_R-wWFA8
03:51:04 <augur> because it shows a slaughter.
03:53:59 <Mathnerd314> I really don't feel like making a youtube account
04:00:52 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Okay, I've concluded that Transmission is broken as an initial seed.
04:01:13 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I'm going to try Deluge and see if that works better.
04:09:17 <catseye> er... so I just compiled my first non-trivial Go program. (well, it's 'cat', so whether it is trivial or not is arguable.)
04:09:50 <catseye> The executable size is a svelte 475K.
04:10:23 <catseye> Also I was amused to find: "The Go for statement differs from that of C in a number of ways. First, it's the only looping construct; there is no while or do."
04:10:24 <pikhq> Transmission is *also* broken at web seeding.
04:10:31 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Try now. :D
04:15:14 <Mathnerd314> I have the two files still trying to download
04:16:04 <pikhq> Sorry, Deluge is busy checking one absurdly large torrent ATM.
04:21:58 <catseye> "In Go the rule about visibility of information is simple: if a name [...] is capitalized, users of the package may see it. Otherwise, the name [...]
04:22:00 <catseye> is visible only inside the package in which it is declared."
04:22:29 <catseye> this language is starting to kinda suck
04:23:19 <Mathnerd314> catseye: Go sucked even before it had no windows port
04:24:25 <Mathnerd314> but I'll leave the daemon running overnight
04:28:12 <catseye> why would the programmer ever want to nest comments
04:28:36 <catseye> it's not like you ever want to comment out a block of code that already has comments in it
04:30:17 <catseye> Mathnerd314: I'm converging on your opinion there
04:31:41 <pikhq> elliott: Dude, Deluge supports hooking up to a torrent with *just* the infohash.
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04:33:23 <catseye> "Two types are either identical or different."
04:33:46 <catseye> am reminded of the comment about how to multiply values by two on a ternary system
04:36:14 <pikhq> Pity absolutely nothing supports tracker exchange.
04:39:00 <catseye> "If the type assertion holds, the value of the expression is the value stored in x and its type is T. If the type assertion is false, a run-time panic occurs. In other words, even though the dynamic type of x is known only at run-time, the type of x.(T) is known to be T in a correct program."
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04:39:31 * catseye mentally categorizes this language next to Falcon
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04:46:16 <pikhq> ... Holy *fuck* I think I hate Deluge now.
04:46:27 <pikhq> It's hogging a whole CPU.
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06:16:50 <pikhq> http://i.imgur.com/IO6jL.jpg
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06:35:57 <Sgeo> pikhq, awesome
06:41:48 <pikhq> augur: Custom map with 4 portals arranged just right.
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09:43:06 <cheater> pikhq: how do you get 4 portals?
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10:57:20 <oerjan> <catseye> @tell oerjan we have a note-taker bot now.
10:57:20 <storkbot> oerjan: catseye told me to tell you: we have a note-taker bot now.
11:03:38 <oerjan> @tell catseye you don't say.
11:24:40 <oerjan> @tell catseye Choosing the same prefix and command as lambdabot may not be such a good idea.
11:27:03 <Vorpal> @tell ' -- DROP TABLE notes;
11:27:33 <Vorpal> @tell ' DROP TABLE notes; --
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15:18:22 <elliott> 17:33:18 <catseye> ... "in spite of attempts to make it better, it's good"?
15:18:22 <storkbot> elliott: catseye told me to tell you: we have a note-taker bot now.
15:20:29 <elliott> 19:50:08 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20W_R-wWFA8
15:20:29 <elliott> This video contains content from Channel 4, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
15:20:52 <elliott> 20:09:17 <catseye> er... so I just compiled my first non-trivial Go program. (well, it's 'cat', so whether it is trivial or not is arguable.)
15:20:52 <elliott> 20:09:50 <catseye> The executable size is a svelte 475K.
15:20:52 <elliott> 20:09:55 <catseye> *after* stripping.
15:21:02 <elliott> catseye: Note that that program requires no libraries to function.
15:21:37 <elliott> 20:23:19 <Mathnerd314> catseye: Go sucked even before it had no windows port
15:21:40 <elliott> no windows port is a feature
15:21:50 <elliott> catseye: go is a decent language, just takes some getting used to
15:24:52 <pikhq> catseye: Haskell's cat is similar, because up until very recently it only ever statically linked against Haskell libs.
15:26:27 <pikhq> (now, it defaults to that and can dynamically link — but Cabal doesn't quite work with it right yet)
15:29:43 <elliott> pikhq: What's the opposite of progress?
15:30:34 <cheater> i must say my favorite language right now is python
15:30:42 <cheater> and i wish haskell had its elegance
15:30:48 <cheater> it's just so nice to write in
15:31:18 <cheater> pikhq: why is haskell code so unelegant?
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15:38:28 <pikhq> cheater: It... Isn't.
15:38:37 <pikhq> cheater: That's just evidence you suck.
15:40:03 <cheater> undefined indent structures ftl
15:41:41 <pikhq> Seriously, I have almost never had problems Haskell indentation.
15:42:01 <pikhq> (the if/then/else block in do notation makes no sense. That has given me some trouble. Thankfull, Haskell 2010 fixes that.)
15:43:03 <pikhq> Anyways, you suck and you should be ashamed of yourself.
15:45:50 <Vorpal> hm almost have ipsec working in transport mode with X.509 certificates (and a local CA). Everything works except that the keying daemon fails to find the CA certificate (so the whole thing works if I disable verification of the cert, but that isn't a very good idea obviously)
15:48:23 <elliott> pikhq: I PROPOSE WE CREATE A P2P ENTIRELY-DHT DISTRIBUTION MECHANISM
15:48:27 <elliott> pikhq: WITH BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS
15:48:36 <elliott> pikhq: Like Freenet but more liek BITTORRENT AWESOMENET
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16:00:03 <elliott> http://xkcd.com/806/ is almost funny.
16:00:08 <elliott> Doesn't have a punchline -- but.
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16:02:24 <elliott> pikhq: http://i.imgur.com/5OFUT.jpg WHERE'S YOUR JESUS NOW
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16:18:37 <storkbot> ais523: catseye told me to tell you: we have a note-taker bot now.
16:18:56 <ais523> and I think I can guess which bot it is
16:19:25 <elliott> ais523: catseye also has 20 messages waiting for him when he next speaks.
16:19:38 <elliott> Unlimited ability to make a bot send a bunch of messages at once: Excellent idea!
16:19:41 <ais523> could lead to quite some flood
16:19:58 <ais523> what's the syntax to send a message?
16:20:03 <elliott> Yes, well, don't you think it's worth it so that he hears that test1, test2, test3, test4, test5,
16:20:08 <elliott> ais523: @tell person message
16:20:24 <ais523> @tell storkbot can you send messages to yourself?
16:20:37 <fungot> elliott: i just won't touch his code :) just translate what i said. must not have been a challenge to the reader
16:20:37 <storkbot> fungot: elliott told me to tell you: fungot
16:20:38 <fungot> storkbot: you could just do? http://schemecookbook.org/ cookbook/ fnord what's up? it's been like this since 2002 and is the only thing
16:20:52 <fungot> elliott: numedia fnord at interweb address fnord i think
16:20:52 <storkbot> fungot: elliott told me to tell you: fungot
16:20:52 <fungot> elliott: you can't list out any advantages of the python fnord
16:20:52 <storkbot> fungot: elliott told me to tell you: fungot
16:20:52 <fungot> storkbot: whoa! hydrogen fuel cell rc car! bitchin'! not much more to do with it
16:20:53 <fungot> storkbot: its been said that dribble is what editors of the x3j13 ansi standard for common lisp do after spending countless hours debating the semantic details of functions like boole and read-char-no-hang.
16:21:31 <ais523> are we going to have to start blacklisting the bots from each other again?
16:21:36 <fungot> elliott: i can't " darcs pull url" says: libcurl: http error ( 404?). i didn't write this with emacs, since all of the values
16:21:43 <elliott> `run echo '!echo @tell fungot fungot'
16:21:43 <fungot> elliott: and i have to go and stay there :d i'm used to it
16:21:59 <ais523> elliott: HackEgo tends to hang for about 2 minutes the first time you use it in a while
16:22:07 <elliott> ais523: but i used it yesterday :P
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16:23:23 <elliott> C'mon, EgoBot! You can do it!
16:23:33 <elliott> `run echo '!sh echo @tell fungot fungot'
16:23:33 <fungot> elliott: some schemes have serialization built-in. not very good
16:23:40 <elliott> ais523: and the second time...
16:23:52 <ais523> second time it's normally faster than that
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16:23:59 <ais523> although I suppose that isn't particularly hard
16:24:14 <Vorpal> (of course, it is fairly pointless in practise)
16:24:28 <HackEgo> !sh echo @tell fungot fungot
16:24:43 <elliott> ais523: let's see if EgoBot wakes up
16:24:52 <Vorpal> (oh, for those who joined after the line I referred to: "<Vorpal> hm almost have ipsec working in transport mode with X.509 certificates (and a local CA). Everything works except that the keying daemon fails to find the CA certificate (so the whole thing works if I disable verification of the cert, but that isn't a very good idea obviously)")
16:24:52 <fizzie> fungot's ignore-list doesn't have storky (yet), though.
16:24:53 <fungot> fizzie: under winxp i ususally have no problems compiling, e.g.
16:25:04 <elliott> fizzie: Let me at least get one botspam working first :P
16:25:13 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
16:25:37 <elliott> unfortunately, none of the bots can output multiple lines
16:25:40 <elliott> making a botloop impossible
16:26:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I think you fail at "<HackEgo> !sh echo @tell fungot fungot" ;)
16:26:03 <fungot> Vorpal: it was a real cereal. about fainted from laughing/ exhaling might be hc enough.
16:26:17 <elliott> Vorpal: EgoBot must ignore HackEgo
16:26:32 <elliott> a botloop would be EgoBot or HackEgo telling storkbot to tell fungot about fungot forever, making fungot spam, making storkbot ping fungot, making fungot babble, and then HackEgo or EgoBot would do it again
16:26:32 <fungot> elliott: when you tweak on it,
16:26:34 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, you *intended* that?
16:26:58 <ais523> elliott: why would HackEgo or EgoBot do it again?
16:26:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:27:08 <elliott> Vorpal: it only does @tell
16:27:13 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:14 <fungot> elliott: riastradh will surely have more to tell atm. it's a perfect tool for some things
16:27:37 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:37 <fungot> elliott: intelligent people.
16:27:37 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:27:38 <fungot> storkbot: you take a look at other stuff :) forthers would say that i do
16:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, right. And getting fungot to say anything starting with @ or such seems hard
16:27:41 <fungot> Vorpal: well size and features go hand in hand, i have
16:27:42 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:27:42 <fungot> storkbot: that's something i'd like to be able to mount it and whatnot. would love a poster to hang on alt.suicide.bus.stop or alt.suicide.holiday these days.
16:27:44 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:44 <fungot> elliott: ( running it on windows myself), and code won't be open doesn't make his old code any worse
16:27:45 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:45 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:45 <fungot> elliott: what does a faded, black white photo of some random mailing list? they are linear
16:27:45 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:45 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:45 <fungot> elliott: there has to be all the rage in miami right now.
16:27:45 <fungot> elliott: i'm only speculating about what technique andre van tonder
16:28:04 <elliott> it should be doing that a lot more :D
16:28:16 <fungot> Vorpal: you can't plant spiders, duh!
16:28:16 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:28:16 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:28:16 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:28:16 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:28:16 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:28:16 <fungot> storkbot: and i remembered it doing more than just reversal. i guess
16:28:16 <fungot> storkbot: i'm drawing a blank
16:28:17 <fungot> storkbot: that's not necessarily what you want is broken and _it's_ trying to apply the object ( in the system. i am confused
16:28:17 <fungot> storkbot: if you do more customization without making you modify the min parameter and not the time to wait for weeks and usually didn't have any cases that required a mop solution ( or that i guess that's the point
16:28:20 <fungot> elliott: the distribution ships with a proprietary dialer... i really need a speed increment, having done all the asm, c, d
16:28:28 <elliott> fizzie: you can ignore storkbot now
16:28:32 <elliott> Vorpal: botspam is a channel tradition
16:28:34 <fungot> Vorpal: the idea behind java and .net?!
16:28:43 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> Vorpal: you can't plant spiders, duh!
16:28:43 <fungot> elliott: c programmers rarely use s-exps... it will use, once i figured how to run that script except me.
16:28:55 <Vorpal> elliott, me calling it annoying is also a tradition by now ;P
16:28:56 <HackEgo> 241|<fungot> Vorpal: you can't plant spiders, duh!
16:29:02 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|storkbot)!
16:29:08 <fizzie> I really should make that a persistent thing.
16:29:19 <elliott> fizzie: I propose making fungot ignore .*
16:29:20 <fungot> elliott: i guess, symbols.
16:29:22 <fizzie> Also keeping toBogE there is a matter of tradition. :p
16:29:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, who owned toBogE?
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16:30:15 <elliott> ais523: you missed botspam
16:30:20 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: why would HackEgo or EgoBot do it again?
16:30:20 <elliott> * ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:30:29 <elliott> because, if they could say multiple lines, as would be required by this,
16:30:32 <elliott> you'd just put it in a while loop
16:30:43 <elliott> to echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:30:43 <fungot> elliott: i have something
16:30:49 <ais523> that wouldn't be a botloop, though
16:30:56 <ais523> that would be one bot in a loop, setting the others off in sequence
16:30:59 <elliott> to have HackEgo say '!sh echo @tell fungot fungot'
16:30:59 <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
16:31:02 <elliott> ais523: yes, but it would be glorious
16:31:21 <ais523> also, that last fungot comment is great
16:31:21 <fungot> ais523: sorry for my absence.
16:31:22 <elliott> HackEgo would talk, fungot would talk, EgoBot would talk, fungot would talk, storkbot would talk, fungot would talk, and it'd all start over again
16:31:23 <fungot> elliott: heh... i guess i should turn it i expected it. you might get the same
16:31:30 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
16:31:30 <fungot> elliott: no exploding ants in this version!
16:31:32 <elliott> fungot quotes are always good
16:31:33 <fungot> elliott: they want to delay it quite a lot
16:31:57 <HackEgo> 242|<fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
16:33:57 <HackEgo> 211|<oklopol> pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons.
16:34:12 <elliott> ais523: have you ever read the acknowledgement in the scsh manual?
16:34:17 <elliott> it's rather amusing (and semi-famous)
16:34:20 <ais523> I don't know what scsh is
16:34:26 <ais523> although I'm guessing a shell from the name
16:34:28 <elliott> ais523: that doesn't even matter
16:34:34 <elliott> it's Olin Shivers' Scheme extension that adds a bunch of posix stuff
16:34:39 <elliott> but that has nothing to do with it
16:34:43 -!- aloril has joined.
16:34:55 <elliott> http://www.scsh.net/docu/html/man.html <-- the acknowledgements page
16:34:58 <ais523> it should be illegal to end a program name with sh if it isn't actually a shell
16:35:01 <elliott> (I think clog is working, if you acre)
16:35:11 <elliott> ais523: Punishable by hanging!
16:35:15 <ais523> that way, we could sue microsoft for giving cmd an incorrect name
16:36:00 <ais523> that's quite an acknowledgements page
16:36:21 <ais523> (and he's incorrect that nobody would read it; a significant minority of people read manuals from front to back, including the useless metadata like that)
16:37:16 <elliott> ais523: Significant minority = {ais523}
16:37:17 <cheater> hey, he misspelled Amerika
16:37:52 <elliott> I love how he says he did it all by myself only centimetres after the list of authors.
16:38:22 <cheater> is that mit cambridge or cambridge cambridge?
16:38:47 <cheater> Last modified: Monday, May 8th, 2006 3:55:48pm MET-1MST-2,M3.5.0,M10.5.0
16:39:30 <cheater> you know, a fully paid 5 pm nap at work is something i have been aiming for very long in my career
16:39:31 <elliott> ais523: scsh does have a shell in it, though
16:39:34 <elliott> "A shell language, modeled using quasi-quotation."
16:39:50 <cheater> Scsh is an open-source Unix shell embedded within Scheme, running on all major Unix platforms including AIX, Cygwin, Linux, FreeBSD, GNU Hurd, HP-UX, Irix, Mac OS X, Solaris, and some others.
16:39:56 <cheater> Scsh is an open-source Unix shell
16:40:06 <elliott> (scsh = Scheme + list/character/string stuff + actually-regular expressions not using regexp syntax (s-exp dsl) + networking + awk-like stuff + ptys + shell of sorts)
16:41:02 -!- ais523 has left (?).
16:41:43 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:41:57 <elliott> misclick? nothing happened when you were away
16:42:03 <elliott> ais523: stop violating causality
16:42:05 <ais523> also, what is my quit message on here? I keep forgetting
16:42:08 <elliott> <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api
16:42:09 <fungot> elliott: so i figure i'll only run it up to just ( walk-collection ( lambda ( x y)
16:42:12 <cheater> 17:41 < cheater> <3 that quitmsg
16:42:16 <ais523> genuine fungot quote, ofc
16:42:17 <fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
16:42:18 -!- elliott has left (?).
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16:42:31 <ais523> oh, that's a fungot quote?
16:42:32 <fungot> ais523: if you managed to get .fi connections a really, really don't know any such people gobs of dough if i use the server vm works differently than it used to be
16:42:41 <elliott> ais523: nope, just my /part and /quit message
16:42:47 <elliott> it's aaaall my own invention
16:42:51 <elliott> all one additional word of it
16:43:14 <cheater> fungot, say something smart
16:43:14 <fungot> cheater: yes, the package is loaded, that's it
16:43:25 <cheater> surprisingly that has worked
16:43:34 <elliott> <fungot> ais523: if you managed to get .fi connections a really, really don't know any such people gobs of dough if i use the server vm works differently than it used to be
16:43:34 <fungot> elliott: what're you busy with? otherwise they are not an official term? :)
16:43:37 <elliott> thought fizzie said this for a second
16:43:44 <elliott> wasted about ten seconds trying to parse it
16:43:55 <cheater> fungot is creepy like that
16:43:59 <elliott> 08:42:17 <fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
16:43:59 <fungot> elliott: ( ( ( call-with-current-continuation call-with-current-continuation)) does not move you up the hierarchy until you get the idea
16:44:01 <fungot> cheater: useful things, towels and such mostly for school, i'll continue debugging egobot later _o
16:44:07 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
16:44:07 <fungot> elliott: what if it was doable with lexical scoping? i certainly haven't thought about that as well.
16:44:12 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: ( ( ( call-with-current-continuation call-with-current-continuation)) does not move you up the hierarchy until you get the idea
16:44:13 <fungot> elliott: aha. we're talking about a real case
16:44:14 <HackEgo> 243|<fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
16:44:26 <HackEgo> 243|<fungot> elliott: ( ( ( call-with-current-continuation call-with-current-continuation)) does not move you up the hierarchy until you get the idea
16:44:55 <elliott> ais523: by "mine is" I meant "my quit message is:"
16:45:03 <elliott> not "my quit message is [also a fungot quote]"
16:45:04 <fungot> elliott: who art the beginning of the next line in still more lines?
16:45:16 <cheater> fungot: was that shakespeare?
16:45:16 <fungot> cheater: the unique tag is generated using genetic algorithms)? hehe. how do you hold it against the skin and it can
16:45:30 <fungot> cheater: ok, tell me where that matkakortti issue is discussed?) very similar to polish ones. like fnord is a good example
16:45:45 <fungot> cheater: even better: submit the whole hyperspec as a srfi? ( asking for no special reason. i rang and rang the doorbell but no one came. fortunately some stranger noticed my efforts and borrowed me a cell phone as a portable error procedure: ( write obj port)
16:45:50 * elliott decides that the font Ubuntu Sans most reminds him of is Trebuchet MS.
16:45:56 <elliott> Except more... interfacey.
16:45:57 <fungot> cheater: enjoy your crow. that
16:48:19 <elliott> http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/geotica.html new exljbris typeface
16:49:17 <cheater> speaking of exlibris, i should have one made
16:49:24 <cheater> i've got like 300 maths books that need to be stamped
16:50:46 <cheater> time to go check out the tom oberheim sem
16:50:57 <cheater> it's going to be an amazing trip into synthesizer history!
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17:11:02 <pikhq> elliott: All broadcast systems should be replaced with IP multicast.
17:11:31 <elliott> pikhq: I repeat what I said about DHT :P
17:11:32 <pikhq> Radio & OTA TV? Fuck that, we're using the entire radio spectrum for Internet. Satellite? Internet. Cable? Internet.
17:11:40 <elliott> pikhq: And then we can INTEGRATE IT WITH MULTICAST
17:11:46 <pikhq> Yes, the entire radio spectrum.
17:11:57 -!- antivigilante has quit (Read error: Connection timed out).
17:11:58 <elliott> Including LIGHT?!?!?11212p[
17:12:38 <pikhq> elliott: The entire spectrum practical for data transmission.
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17:14:20 <elliott> pikhq: http://iginomarini.com/fell/the-revival-fonts/ These typefaces are amazingly beautiful and the digitised revivals are released in OpenType with the SIL Open Font License.
17:14:57 <elliott> pikhq: *Somehow,* it even works on the web: http://joel.thegoodmanblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/fellgreatprimer.png
17:15:04 <elliott> (and http://joel.thegoodmanblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/fellenglish.png)
17:16:02 <pikhq> elliott: The gorgeousity!
17:16:26 <elliott> pikhq: Scroll down to the bottom of http://iginomarini.com/fell/wp-content/uploads/firefoxdaggett.jpg after seeing the picture to see it accurately reproduce a 1700s text, including beautiful long s.
17:16:38 <elliott> pikhq: "Reſidence" in particular looks awesome.
17:17:48 <pikhq> elliott: *That* is the font that The Time Machine should be typeset with.
17:18:28 <elliott> pikhq: I actually thought that. But, I'm not so sure: It seems too florid, somehow; The Time Machine is quite dry.
17:18:34 <elliott> But it is the right sort of period of type...
17:18:43 <elliott> pikhq: It's a one- or two-liner in XeLaTeX to try it out, so...
17:18:54 <elliott> pikhq: I just wish XeLaTeX had all the microtype features. That'd be perfect.
17:19:12 <elliott> I wonder if their new optical margin support is any good.
17:19:13 <pikhq> elliott: It's planned, just not in yet.
17:19:26 <elliott> Optical margins are in, iirc.
17:20:27 <pikhq> Good; that's probably the most important.
17:20:44 <elliott> You were the one who told me they had it :P
17:21:00 <ais523> what are optical margins?
17:21:27 <elliott> ais523: the left and right margins of a justified block of text are subtly adjusted so they are not exactly equal
17:21:37 <elliott> to account for the unequal appearance of various glyphs
17:21:44 <elliott> this makes margins look straighter to the human eye
17:21:52 <elliott> since different glyphs may have more prominence to the left/right or not
17:21:54 <ais523> so a line ending with d is slightly shorter than a line ending with o
17:22:08 <elliott> although it's more useful for the left margins, I think
17:22:12 <elliott> but yeah, it improves readability
17:22:19 <elliott> since the eye can always go to the "exact same place"
17:22:23 <elliott> of course, it's very minor, but still...
17:22:30 <pikhq> elliott: It happens to make the line-breaking work better.
17:22:49 <ais523> I would have thought the fovea, despite being small, is large enough that if there was sufficient light, that would work just fine
17:22:53 <pikhq> Though the variable character spacing helps with that.
17:23:01 <ais523> with either margin situation
17:23:07 <pikhq> Erm, helps much more.
17:23:29 <elliott> hmm: what's next in this sequence: annually, biannually, quarterly, ?
17:23:45 <elliott> ais523: true, it's more psychological
17:23:53 <elliott> or probably entirely psychological
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17:25:02 <catseye> light is impractical for data transmission
17:25:02 <storkbot> catseye: oerjan told me to tell you: you don't say.
17:25:03 <storkbot> catseye: oerjan told me to tell you: Choosing the same prefix and command as lambdabot may not be such a good idea.
17:25:03 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test1
17:25:03 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test2
17:25:03 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test3
17:25:03 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test4
17:25:03 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test5
17:25:04 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test6
17:25:04 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test7
17:25:05 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test8
17:25:05 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test9
17:25:06 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test10
17:25:06 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test11
17:25:07 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test12
17:25:24 <ais523> elliott: storkbot's probably been fakelagged or something
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17:25:42 <catseye> --- :holmes.freenode.net NOTICE storkbot :*** Message to #esoteric throttled due to flooding
17:28:51 * pikhq is actually looking forward to Firefox 4.
17:28:55 <elliott> pikhq: What the world needs: an olde-style monospace font.
17:29:02 <pikhq> It appears to be fixing a lot of the suck in Firefox.
17:29:15 <elliott> pikhq: firefox 4 is also copying the irrelevant part of the chrome interface
17:29:21 <elliott> because apparently they're idiots
17:29:25 <pikhq> elliott: Which bit?
17:29:33 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.teknobites.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/firefox4-designs.png
17:29:44 <elliott> pikhq: The "in the window chrome bit", while failing to copy the "tab bar as title bar" thing.
17:29:51 <elliott> They just put things in the window chrome. For... no reason.
17:30:12 <ais523> tab bar as title bar annoys me
17:30:16 <pikhq> elliott: The tab bar as title bar is now the default for Firefox 4.
17:30:20 <ais523> because it no longer works like a title bar is supposed to
17:30:29 <elliott> pikhq: Now it looks like this: http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/17/2009/12/500x_firefox_4_look.jpg
17:30:36 <elliott> pikhq: Which is just awkward-looking.
17:30:38 <pikhq> Erm, wait, no. It's just below the title bar.
17:30:49 <elliott> Other crazy ideas: http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/17/2009/12/500x_firefox_buttons.jpg
17:31:01 <pikhq> *Fortunately*, that's configurable.
17:31:35 <pikhq> That is, you can at least make it look like a "normal" tabbed interface. Which is much less awkward.
17:31:38 <elliott> pikhq: I cannot comprehend why Mozilla doesn't just fire every UI designer apart from Aza Raskin.
17:31:48 <pikhq> And the "things in the window chrome" bit is just on Windows 7 & Vista.
17:32:13 <pikhq> Still, their UI designers suck, and the saving grace is that most of the suck can be tweaked away.
17:32:23 <elliott> i just use chrome, i never have to think about it
17:32:27 <elliott> it's barely even a program :P
17:32:38 <elliott> pikhq: Nonono, Aza Raskin is awesome to the max
17:32:43 <elliott> He just gets lumped in with stoopid people :(
17:32:55 <pikhq> Firefox 4 should be actually support OpenType features.
17:33:17 <elliott> pikhq: One thing that's been holding Firefox back for god knows how long: Skins.
17:33:27 <pikhq> elliott: It's common on Windows.
17:33:30 <elliott> (Yet how many thousands of people probably started using Firefox because of them? Blergh.)
17:33:35 <elliott> pikhq: It's also retarded.
17:33:39 <elliott> Anyway, it was *not* common.
17:33:45 <pikhq> And they have the nerve to accuse *Linux* developers of inconsistency.
17:33:50 <elliott> Winamp did it, and nothing else.
17:33:54 <elliott> Then they added it to Mozilla.
17:33:58 <elliott> Now everything does it because of them.
17:34:12 <ais523> elliott: Windows Media Player did skins since XP
17:34:20 <elliott> ais523: Mozilla predates XP
17:34:36 <pikhq> And IE had skins since IE 4. Honest-to-god.
17:34:42 <elliott> pikhq: Yeaah, but... nobody used them.
17:35:29 <pikhq> The habit of making a different, distinct set of widgets for each app has been in the Windows dev culture for ages.
17:35:43 <pikhq> Office started it, the bastards.
17:36:54 <catseye> it's a form of... what's the word
17:36:58 <elliott> pikhq: I want to publish something in a Fell typeface now.
17:37:46 <pikhq> I think the only programs on Linux that have the nerve to design their *own widget schemes* are imports from Windows.
17:38:16 <pikhq> catseye: Except it doesn't do that at all.
17:38:23 <pikhq> catseye: It just makes things look different.
17:38:50 <elliott> [[Whenever a programmer thinks, "Hey, skins, what a cool idea", their computer's speakers should create some sort of cock-shaped soundwave and plunge it repeatedly through their skulls.]]
17:38:52 <pikhq> Lessee... Chrome, Mozilla, Firefox, Opera, Java (good GOD why can't they just make Swing use GTK as a backend)...
17:38:56 <catseye> people are reluctant to leave what they have gotten used to. granted it's more psychology than actual usability.
17:38:56 <elliott> ("I am fully in support of this proposed audio-cock technology." --jwz, in response)
17:39:10 <pikhq> Oh, and things that predate the duopoly of GTK and Qt.
17:39:22 <elliott> pikhq: and things that use crazy toolkits because
17:39:31 <elliott> pikhq: also, chrome uses gtk
17:39:39 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, and it has its own widgets.
17:39:48 <elliott> pikhq: it has gtk widgets styled according to its whims :)
17:40:00 <elliott> ...with an appropriate skin it looks and acts entirely native though so *shrug*
17:40:00 <pikhq> No, it has its own widgets distinct from the GTK theme.
17:40:07 <elliott> rubbish default look worked around
17:40:08 -!- elliott has left (?).
17:40:11 -!- elliott has joined.
17:40:14 <pikhq> Is there a Grey Mist skin?
17:40:19 <elliott> pikhq: but the *behaviour* is gtk's
17:40:25 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Lessee... Chrome, Mozilla, Firefox, Opera, Java (good GOD why can't they just make Swing use GTK as a backend)... <--- firefox? it looks native to me here?
17:40:28 <elliott> pikhq: grey mist skin: tell it to use WM title bars + click "Use GTK theme"
17:40:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: It apes the GTK theme.
17:40:41 <pikhq> elliott: Insufficient.
17:40:48 <pikhq> elliott: It still uses a distinct widget set.
17:40:55 <elliott> pikhq: whine whine i can't care any more
17:41:00 <pikhq> That damned scrollbar is NOT Grey Mist.
17:41:03 <catseye> so many gratuitous features to add! so little time!
17:41:09 <elliott> pikhq: there are skins for the scrollbar :P
17:41:13 <elliott> it's not the perfect situation but ehh
17:41:25 <pikhq> Yes, but is there one that makes it use the actual GTK widgets?
17:42:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, looks the same as clearlooks to me
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17:42:08 <Vorpal> I guess it is better at that theme
17:42:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's actually using the Android widget set.
17:42:50 <fizzie> Dillo does native GTK widgets for you. :p
17:43:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, Chrome does.
17:43:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh I was talking about firefox
17:43:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: Firefox is using XUL for the interface, and the default theme *happens* to do horrible things to GTK to get out the glyphs for the native widgets.
17:44:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, it works well for me.
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17:45:54 <fizzie> catseye: Re storkie, I was hoping for an excess-flood thanks to elliott times 20.
17:46:55 <catseye> elliott: no continuations in pixley+message_passing+modules; send creates no new bindings, recv and spawn do, but have let-based semantics to expose them to the subexpression. (Also, language needs a name.)
17:47:50 <catseye> fizzie: I suppose I would have to insert some throttling code, if I were to take it seriously.
17:48:04 <catseye> elliott: Scheme from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
17:50:34 <catseye> Also, why does weechat-curses not understand 'home' and 'end'? Distracting
17:50:59 <catseye> All IRC clients are not quite what you want -- it's a law or something.
17:56:54 <elliott> catseye: What's a good language?
17:57:57 <catseye> elliott: I AM MAKING A CHART K
17:58:47 <catseye> elliott: Have you ever seen that "programming languages as cars" newsgroup ha-ha article?
17:59:10 <catseye> i hosted an extended version of it on my site a loooong time ago
18:00:08 <catseye> http://sucs.org/~manic/humour/languages/progcars.htm
18:00:47 <catseye> I added entries for Java, ML, and Befunge, iirc
18:03:32 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, maybe I'll just set The Untitled Document in a Fell type.
18:04:14 <elliott> [[LISP - An electric car. It's simple but slow. Seat belts are not available.]]
18:04:19 <elliott> catseye: sometimes i never can quite understand the logic behind these
18:04:36 <elliott> [[LOGO - A kiddie's replica of a Rolls Royce. Comes with a real engine and a working horn.]]
18:04:42 <elliott> so is Lisp an electric car or a rolls royce?
18:04:47 <elliott> an electric rolls royce that comes without seatbelts?
18:05:15 <elliott> pikhq: Although I'd need a monospaced version... which I just wished for.
18:07:06 <pikhq> elliott: Have you considered... Replacing everything everywhere? :D
18:07:18 <elliott> pikhq: Now go design Fell Monospaced.
18:07:44 <pikhq> elliott: No. I need to design a non-crappy torrent file maker.
18:08:05 <pikhq> And then while I'm at it, a whole torrent client.
18:08:21 <pikhq> With blackjack! And hookers!
18:08:54 <Vorpal> hm the bank website goes all screwy if you open more than one tab.
18:10:39 <elliott> pikhq: Transmission is just fine :P
18:10:49 <elliott> pikhq: But you think it's suboptimal for initial DHT seeds?
18:10:55 <elliott> pikhq: Link me to random_data served by Deluge? :)
18:11:03 <pikhq> elliott: No. Deluge sucks worse.
18:11:09 <pikhq> elliott: It uses a whole CPU.
18:11:13 -!- augur has joined.
18:11:34 <pikhq> Transmission at least has a decent UI.
18:11:41 <pikhq> And doesn't *use a whole CPU*.
18:11:58 <pikhq> It just has some lacks in its protocol handling.
18:12:08 <pikhq> Gregor: Actually, it goes between idle and 2%.
18:12:24 <Gregor> OK, only 2/100ths. At least my numerator was right.
18:13:03 <elliott> pikhq: Mmf, but I wanna see DHT working!
18:13:23 <elliott> pikhq: Here, try qBitTorrent.
18:13:30 <elliott> Fugly UI, but maybe it'll get DHT right!
18:13:56 <elliott> (Note: I like Transmission, I just wanna see this DHT thing work :P)
18:15:37 <elliott> Or http://code.google.com/p/linkage/
18:15:40 <elliott> I'm just listing libtorrent things here
18:15:49 <elliott> pikhq: You may have to create that session directory thing like rtorrent, right?
18:16:04 <pikhq> elliott: There's two different libtorrents.
18:16:20 <pikhq> elliott: rtorrent uses one, everyone else uses a different one.
18:16:23 <elliott> pikhq: I am referring to the rasterbar one.
18:16:36 <pikhq> Which rtorrent doesn't use.
18:16:44 <elliott> Rasterbar has a ton of features.
18:16:48 <elliott> So it should do DHT right.
18:17:19 <pikhq> It still lacks things like tracker exchange, though.
18:19:04 <elliott> "By the way all the ligatures and swash characters are directly accessible in the OpenType version. Historical forms are also accessible through the “hist” feature or as Stylistic Set."
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18:20:00 <pikhq> elliott: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:C3XSTFZIWGJFSEWX5NIXO3UKEJXWDSAV&dn=random_image
18:20:09 <elliott> pikhq: &dn= is a TOOL OF THE STATE
18:20:33 * elliott adds magnet:?xt=urn:btih:c3xstfziwgjfsewx5nixo3ukejxwdsav
18:21:02 <elliott> pikhq: Let's see if I can do this.
18:21:29 <catseye> <elliott> an electric rolls royce that comes without seatbelts?
18:21:43 <catseye> partly it is a generational gap, partly they are just stupidcheesy.
18:22:10 <catseye> or maybe those are the same phenomenon. well, whatever.
18:22:33 <elliott> pikhq: 11.6 KiB/s but it worked.
18:22:53 <elliott> Gregor: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:c3xstfziwgjfsewx5nixo3ukejxwdsav
18:23:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Add that magnet URI to your torrent client
18:23:28 <elliott> It is a bunch of /dev/random distributed entirely by DHT
18:23:39 <Vorpal> elliott, okay fun, but why
18:23:41 <elliott> pikhq: If someone else manages to download from me, I will be officially impressed and propose that we replace the internet with a DHT.
18:23:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Because IT IS AWESOME.
18:23:51 <elliott> Vorpal: If you get two peers, then that means *you managed to get me from pikhq*.
18:24:00 <elliott> Start with nothing, get a random file pikhq *just made*.
18:24:05 <elliott> Vorpal: He didn't even post it anywhere.
18:24:12 <elliott> He puts it in his client, gives us a checksum, and *we can download it*.
18:24:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Add it and watch the awesome.
18:24:23 <elliott> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:c3xstfziwgjfsewx5nixo3ukejxwdsav
18:24:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I see no where to open it in ktorrent
18:24:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
18:24:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Look for an "Add URL" link
18:24:38 <Vorpal> so open url seems wrong
18:24:42 <Gregor> magnet:/xt=purn:bitch:wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:24:47 <elliott> It doesn't locate anything
18:24:49 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, right.
18:24:53 <pikhq> It is a URI, though.
18:25:10 <elliott> Vorpal: It may take about 30 seconds at absolute worst to connect to pikhq.
18:25:16 <elliott> Vorpal: If it actually shows in the list, then just give it some time.
18:25:22 <Vorpal> elliott, it just waits there, not even showing the "select where to save the files" box
18:25:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Then ktorrent sucks.
18:25:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Get transmission-qt!
18:25:48 <Vorpal> elliott, it says "DHT: 500 nodes, 2 tasks" in the task bar though
18:25:54 <elliott> Vorpal: It fails at magnet URIs.
18:26:03 <elliott> Which are the important thing here.
18:26:13 <elliott> (The torrent file would include *marginally* more information, which defeats the whole fun.)
18:26:20 <elliott> pikhq: Dood, I lost you and now you're pack as a peer.
18:26:26 <elliott> Now I'm downloading from you.
18:26:40 <Vorpal> elliott, well, how could it list the "select files to download and where to save it" without getting the info
18:27:20 <Vorpal> elliott, ah the magnet tab says "downloading...."
18:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, so while in theory it should work, in practise it doesn't
18:27:48 <Vorpal> and I doubt ktorrent is to blame
18:27:53 <elliott> It takes a minute or so at worst.
18:28:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: It needs to connect to a peer via DHT in order to get the checksums and the file names and file sizes.
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18:28:03 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on if you are lucky with your dht peers
18:28:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's not how DHT works.
18:28:14 <elliott> The DHT is organised precisely so that DHT doesn't go slowly.
18:28:20 <elliott> The hashspace is allocated to various sections.
18:28:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's a single gigantic network.
18:28:29 <elliott> After a few hits, you are on the right track. Literally.
18:28:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, so why doesn't it find you then?
18:28:51 <elliott> Vorpal: because ktorrent sucks
18:29:01 <Vorpal> elliott, um maybe because I do it over ipv6?
18:29:08 <elliott> Vorpal: You... *force IPv6*?
18:29:09 <Vorpal> I don't have ipv4 port forwarding set up
18:29:21 <elliott> Vorpal: You already knew that was the issue, you just wanted to waste our time...
18:29:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: ... Wait, that would prevent you from bootstrapping DHT.
18:29:31 <Vorpal> elliott, no I didn't think it would be the issue at first
18:29:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: You are a moron.
18:29:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, my router crashes badly if I try to add udp port forwarding
18:29:55 <elliott> Even my shitty ISP-provided one works.
18:30:01 <elliott> pikhq: Do you use only-IPv6 for anything?
18:30:03 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is shitty ISP provided
18:30:09 <Vorpal> and it only started doing this recently
18:30:11 <elliott> And it's a really shitty ISP.
18:30:35 <quintopia> that sounds cool and all, but who wants random data from him? my own random pool is probably full, and one random bit is as good as another...
18:30:42 <Vorpal> elliott, now it says it found you. How strange
18:30:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Indeed, I can see you.
18:30:53 <elliott> I am even downloading from you. (Why?)
18:31:08 <elliott> You would have got two peers if you waited.
18:31:15 <elliott> My client would have given you pikhq.
18:31:26 <elliott> Then everything worked perfectly, it's just that because you're on IPv6-only it was ultra-slow.
18:31:30 <Vorpal> elliott, so it works to find it. I don't plan to download 20 MB now, I'm uploading something large
18:31:36 <elliott> quintopia: It was only random so that we could be sure that nobody else had ever had this file before.
18:31:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: Okay, so we have demonstrated that DHT works just fine for you.
18:31:42 <catseye> quintopia: this is highly advanced random data from the FUTURE.
18:31:46 <elliott> quintopia: That would compromise the integrity of the experiment.
18:31:49 <Vorpal> and bittorrent slows that down badly
18:31:56 <elliott> We have demonstrated that DHT is magical.
18:32:06 <elliott> Now for our next experiment, we will demonstrate that DMT is magical.
18:32:09 <Vorpal> elliott, it isn't magical as such, just somewhat
18:32:39 -!- Harpyon has joined.
18:32:40 <augur> tesla was the electric jesus :D
18:32:42 <Vorpal> elliott, err Discrete multi-tone modulation?
18:32:56 <elliott> http://www.google.com/search?q=DMT
18:32:58 <elliott> First result: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine
18:33:02 <elliott> N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is a naturally occurring hallucinogenic drug of the tryptamine family. This drug is found not only in many plants,[3] but also in trace amounts in the human body, where its natural function remains undetermined. Structurally, it is analogous to the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-HT) and other hallucinogenic tryptamines such as 5-MeO-DMT, bufotenin (5-OH-DMT), and psilocin (4-HO-DMT). DMT is created in small amounts by the hu
18:33:03 <elliott> man body during normal metabolism[4] by the enzyme tryptamine-N-methyltransferase. Many cultures, indigenous and modern, ingest DMT as a psychedelic, in either extracted or synthesized forms.[5] When refined, DMT is a clear to white, crystalline solid. However, DMT found on the illicit market is commonly impure and may appear yellow, orange, or salmon in color, unless special care has been taken to remove these impurities. Such impurities result from d
18:33:03 <elliott> egradation or originate from plant matter from which the DMT may have been extracted.
18:33:09 <Vorpal> elliott, not for me, but I'm logged in to gmail
18:33:17 <pikhq> Now, WHO WANTS SOME SOURCE CODE VIA BITTORRENT?
18:33:18 <elliott> Maybe you have safe search turned on.
18:33:21 <quintopia> catseye: i can see how that would be better than normal random data, since not only is it completely unknowable in advance (because its random) but i can also know it in advance! (because it is from the future)
18:33:27 <elliott> pikhq: DO NOT INCLUDE THE NAME
18:33:31 <elliott> Names shall be found through DHT
18:33:42 <Vorpal> elliott, first result for me is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthogonal_frequency-division_multiplexing, "Orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing (OFDM), essentially identical to coded OFDM (COFDM) and discrete multi-tone modulation (DMT)."
18:33:45 <elliott> In the future reality, the hash will replace all other identifiers
18:33:55 <elliott> pikhq: I'm just gonna stop downloading random_image now.
18:33:58 <catseye> quintopia: indeed! they really ought to be charging more for such valuable goods
18:34:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, invent a version control system over bittorrent
18:34:21 <elliott> Vorpal: If I can convince pikhq to, we are totally reinventing the internet as a DHT.
18:34:31 <pikhq> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:GIE5JPJQDQALGZ4XNEHATD3NMPFIWDR6
18:34:35 <quintopia> I want a version control system that lets me revert to future as-yet-unwritten versions!
18:34:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: Git already can.
18:34:48 <elliott> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:gie5jpjqdqalgz4xnehatd3nmpfiwdr6
18:35:01 <elliott> I will say when I get you as a peer so we can time it.
18:35:37 <elliott> pikhq: Now I have the name.
18:35:45 <elliott> Now I'm seeding (to nobody).
18:36:05 <elliott> 10:34:56 to 10:35:45 according to clog.
18:36:11 <elliott> Or 41, depending on what timestamp you believe.
18:36:24 <elliott> So basically... 45 to 49 seconds.
18:36:43 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: Git already can. <-- huh
18:36:57 <elliott> pikhq: Would my client have tried you sooner since I was -- no.
18:37:02 <elliott> No, it wouldn't; that would have gone quickly.
18:37:05 <elliott> My client did it from scratch.
18:38:39 <pikhq> quintopia: World-wide hash table is used to go from the identifying hash to peers. It asks these peers for the torrent info. It then downloads from these peers.
18:39:04 <elliott> quintopia: Follow up to what pikhq said: And then further peers are discovered from peers we're already connected to.
18:39:16 <elliott> quintopia: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:bcf2e587afd4d3b1bdd8ece5150d9fb4d2958af4
18:39:20 <elliott> quintopia: Put this in your client.
18:39:29 <catseye> "world-wide" meaning "all peers have a copy of at least some of the table"?
18:39:40 <pikhq> catseye: All DHT peers, yes.
18:39:48 <elliott> catseye: The hashspace is divided between all peers, I think.
18:40:15 <elliott> quintopia: You will notice that, given nothing but what amounts to a *hash* of a structure that contains only a title, a filename, a file size and a checksum of that file, within about 10 seconds you're downloading Ubuntu from tens of peers.
18:40:29 <elliott> Mathnerd314: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:gie5jpjqdqalgz4xnehatd3nmpfiwdr6
18:40:32 <elliott> to get some code from pikhq
18:40:35 <elliott> pikhq: have you stopped seeding?
18:40:47 <elliott> I'm not connected to you. But whatever.
18:40:56 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Add that magnet and it should download from both of us.
18:40:58 <quintopia> elliott: that hash points to maverick final?
18:41:05 <elliott> quintopia: not the one i linked Mathnerd314 to
18:41:08 <elliott> but the one before it, yes
18:41:10 <elliott> quintopia: but no -- not points
18:41:23 <elliott> quintopia: It is merely a *hash* of a structure that basically amounts to a file name, size, and a checksum.
18:41:40 <elliott> quintopia: The magic of DHT means we can *download a file knowing basically nothing but a hash of a checksum*.
18:41:53 <quintopia> yes, but it points to after looking up in the global hashtable, yes?
18:41:53 <elliott> quintopia: From tens upon tens of people, maxing out more or less any connection (it's Ubuntu, after all).
18:42:04 <elliott> quintopia: It doesn't point to the file.
18:42:26 <elliott> Just to an info structure with the file name, size and checksum in; DHT peers can also say "[some IP] is peering this".
18:42:36 <elliott> And then we can use peer exchange to get peers from those peers, and find more peers on the DHT...
18:42:39 <elliott> And this all happens very, very quickly.
18:42:47 <elliott> quintopia: Try adding magnet:?xt=urn:btih:bcf2e587afd4d3b1bdd8ece5150d9fb4d2958af4 if you haven't already.
18:42:51 <elliott> quintopia: You'll be amazed how fast it goes.
18:42:54 <elliott> And at no point is a tracker involved.
18:42:57 <elliott> pikhq: I don't see Mathnerd314.
18:43:15 <elliott> pikhq: Which is odd, since I saw Vorpal.
18:43:21 <elliott> pikhq: Is your peer exchange working?
18:43:39 <pikhq> And I saw you for half a sec.
18:43:52 <pikhq> Aaand his client is requesting nothing.
18:44:00 <elliott> pikhq: Try restarting your client :P
18:44:04 <elliott> quintopia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_hash_table is about DHTs in general
18:44:06 <quintopia> elliott: i'm trying to figure out how
18:44:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:44:22 <pikhq> elliott: Which SUCKS ASS.
18:44:25 <elliott> pikhq: you don't know that
18:44:27 <elliott> Mathnerd314 was on deluge iirc
18:44:35 <pikhq> elliott: I have tried it. It SUCKS.
18:44:42 <pikhq> Oh, wait, quintopia.
18:44:43 <elliott> pikhq: YOU DON'T KNOW THAT QUINTOPIA USES DELUGE :|
18:44:58 <pikhq> Deluge does suck, though.
18:45:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, ktorrent is the best one I seen so far for linux
18:45:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: You, sir, have no taste.
18:45:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, tried rtorrent and transmission-gtk. Both were sucky IMO
18:45:44 <Vorpal> elliott, never tried the qt one
18:45:45 <elliott> Why, was Transmission too ~simple~?
18:45:59 <elliott> It's more full-featured than most clients.
18:46:01 <catseye> rtorrent: a torrent client written in R
18:46:09 <quintopia> okay, DHT is on. now just have to find where a magnet: URI goes...
18:46:15 <elliott> Congratulations: you have actually developed a mind that rejects programs because they look *too easy to use *.
18:46:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: You are not allowed to have opinions about UIs.
18:46:35 <elliott> quintopia: "Open URL" or whatever.
18:46:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I was unable to find features that were nice in ktorrent
18:47:19 <quintopia> yeah, i don't torrent much. i use it because it is there.
18:47:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well, peer listing with countries for ips iirc.
18:47:34 <elliott> pikhq: Let us admire the last message sent to this channel.
18:47:48 <elliott> Let's just... stare at it.
18:47:56 <quintopia> yeah it still says it doesn't know the magnet protocol
18:48:11 <elliott> quintopia: install transmission-{gtk,qt}; pick one :p
18:48:13 <Vorpal> elliott, it seems a bit more advanced in the current version
18:48:13 <pikhq> quintopia: Uninstall it.
18:48:37 <Vorpal> elliott, when I tried it, it was at pre-1.0
18:49:06 <elliott> Then it's a bit misleading to criticise it based on very old perceptions, isn't it?
18:49:15 <elliott> It still doesn't have countries in the peer list, though!
18:49:18 <Mathnerd314> elliott: wait, so I have random_data, random_image, ski, GRegor-op13-mov1.ogg, and ubuntu-10.10-desktop-i386.iso all open. which of them work?
18:49:23 <Vorpal> elliott, true, I didn't think of that
18:49:32 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Uhh, you can get rid of the gregor and ubuntu ones.
18:49:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I like pointless statistics.
18:49:40 <elliott> quintopia: you may want the -qt version
18:49:47 <elliott> Mathnerd314: In fact all of them but ski.
18:49:50 <pikhq> Vorpal: "I like pointless[ness]"
18:49:52 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Although the Ubuntu one should work fine.
18:49:52 <catseye> 21% of all statistics are pointless
18:50:07 <Vorpal> elliott, heck, so do you. Otherwise why did you admire fizzie's graphs and such so much? :P
18:50:26 <catseye> i claim that there are no nests in the tree outside my window
18:50:29 <elliott> You are the one obsessed with them.
18:50:33 <quintopia> elliott: transmission-qt is just a gui wrapper for -common
18:50:40 <elliott> quintopia: Yes... so is -gtk.
18:50:45 <elliott> quintopia: It's not a "wrapper".
18:50:47 <elliott> It's one of the frontends.
18:50:55 <elliott> Mathnerd314: I am; dunno about pikhq.
18:50:58 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I am.
18:51:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I don't use fizzie Desktop Environment that provides me with graphs on my desktop.
18:51:08 <elliott> For a reason other than it not existing, too.
18:51:13 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I mean I downloaded it and am now seeding
18:51:20 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:51:22 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Then congratulations; it worked.
18:51:31 <elliott> pikhq: Link me to that gregor webseeded one again?
18:51:43 * Sgeo wonders if he should try Digsby again
18:51:54 <Sgeo> I wish Empathy was available for Windows
18:52:11 <elliott> Empathy is the worst client ever apart from Pidgin.
18:52:13 <quintopia> elliott: frontend=wrapper in the sense (a port of one interface to another interface). in the case of GUI frontends, the new interface is a human interface...
18:52:15 <Gregor> Sgeo: No one has empathy for Windows.
18:52:21 <elliott> quintopia: So why not install -qt?
18:52:28 <fizzie> elliott: Grah, now you made me start to download that Ubuntu because I wanted to see if those links work, and chose a random one. What am I supposed to do with ubuntu-10.10-desktop-i386.iso, huh?
18:52:32 <quintopia> elliott: i was already installing it when you said that
18:52:45 <elliott> quintopia: oh, i thought you were dismissing it for being a frontend
18:52:50 <elliott> fizzie: Start the ski one instead!
18:52:50 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Run top
18:52:59 <elliott> fizzie: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:3209d4bd301c00b36797690e098f6d63ca8b0e3e
18:53:03 <pikhq> elliott: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:EMAAKALBHODH4WZGTN7MCXTWXCWM3N4E&ws=http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1.ogg
18:53:07 <elliott> fizzie: That one has two seeders and seemingly only pikhq's works.
18:53:13 <elliott> pikhq: Wtf? Lame. Put the webseed in the .torrent.
18:53:21 <elliott> pikhq: And use the hash of that.
18:53:24 <elliott> pikhq: Or does that not work? :(
18:53:24 <pikhq> elliott: It is, but that won't get transferred.
18:53:36 <pikhq> elliott: *All* that gets transferred is the info dictionary.
18:53:44 <elliott> pikhq: Why aren't webseeds in the info dictionary >__________>
18:53:47 <pikhq> elliott: Which contains *nothing* but checksums, filenames, and file lengths.
18:53:54 <elliott> pikhq: you forgot the torrent name
18:54:25 <quintopia> where the fuck did it install? trying to run "transmission" asks me to install -gtk
18:54:32 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: ok, it uses up some cpu when the GUI is open... but then you can quit the gui and just leave the daemon running
18:54:39 <elliott> quintopia: transmission-qt probably
18:54:42 <fizzie> elliott: Well, I saw two peers while downloading that latter one.
18:54:42 <elliott> failing that look in your menus
18:54:58 <elliott> fizzie: Yay. I didn't seed to you, though.
18:55:42 <elliott> pikhq: Proposal: A website where you can post DHT hashes and vote on them, plus a bunch of servers in a country with lax copyright laws that downloads the top N hashes (sometimes swapping out less well-off ones for balance) and seeds them, with a phat pipe.
18:55:47 <quintopia> guess i've gotta run locate on root...good thing my system part is small
18:56:00 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: "Some"?
18:56:06 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Try "1 of 3 cores".
18:56:17 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i like how a gui using appreciable cpu is considered at all acceptable.
18:56:25 <catseye> lax copyright laws + phat pipe = most popular nation in the UN
18:56:41 <Mathnerd314> elliott: my point was that the GUI is hardly ever open
18:57:10 <pikhq> Lemme put it this way: if a GUI ever needs more than 2% of a CPU *just to run the GUI*, you're doing it motherfucking wrong.
18:58:06 <elliott> Gregor: They have governmental issues.
18:58:11 <elliott> And also burned to death a few years ago.
18:58:21 -!- tombom has joined.
18:58:23 <elliott> Gregor: (There is a group of mobsters -- not joking -- who claim to be the Sealand government in exile).
18:58:32 <elliott> Gregor: (They run a Sealand website claiming to be the real government.)
18:58:34 <Mathnerd314> elliott: so, does this mean that you can do some work, give someone a hash, and they can download it?
18:58:42 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Yes. If you seed it.
18:59:15 <pikhq> If *somebody* seeds it.
18:59:27 <elliott> I was assuming a strict chronological order.
18:59:49 <pikhq> It is entirely possible for the torrent file to have ceased to exist and it still works so long as somebody is still seeding.
19:00:32 <elliott> pikhq: How do I shot make .torrent file minimalised so no peers?
19:00:48 <pikhq> elliott: THAT DOES NOT PARSE
19:01:14 <pikhq> God DAMMIT Berne Convention.
19:01:15 <elliott> pikhq: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
19:01:30 <elliott> pikhq: No but seriously: How do I strip all the stuff out of a .torrent to be suitable for this craziness?
19:01:31 <pikhq> It's an *international treaty* that sets the minimum copyright term to Life + 50 years.
19:01:48 <pikhq> elliott: Emacs, remove basically everything but the info dictionary. :)
19:02:18 <elliott> pikhq: I'm retarded. Need more specific instructions.
19:02:27 <elliott> There is big big binary blob, what is?
19:03:09 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, something. Part of the info dictionary. No touch.
19:03:28 <pikhq> Actually. I'm pretty sure that's the set of part hashes.
19:03:39 <elliott> I need d but not 10 right?
19:03:48 <elliott> d10:created by25:Transmission/2.04 (11151)
19:03:53 <elliott> I can strip out the 10 and 25 blocks there, right?
19:04:40 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
19:04:44 <Vorpal> elliott, in ktorrent I can just create one suitable for pure magnet directly!
19:05:00 <elliott> Vorpal: no, it will have excess
19:05:03 <elliott> pure magnet would work with this
19:05:07 <elliott> but it has more information than strictly necessary
19:05:12 <elliott> this is just a stupid thing to do
19:07:06 <catseye> oh man, combine dht with rsync
19:08:07 <quintopia> my system does not contain a file named "transmission"
19:08:23 <elliott> quintopia: it may be transmission-qt or whatever
19:08:52 <catseye> in the future al protocols will be tunnelled over http -- for very good reasons!
19:09:09 <catseye> (which includes the al protocols, of course)
19:09:48 <quintopia> the very good reason is because the first post-singularity AI will claim all other protocols as its own. "HUMANS STAY ON SILLY HTTP LEAVE ME ALONE"
19:10:01 <elliott> first post-singularity ai?
19:10:04 <elliott> you have your terminology mixed up
19:10:20 <elliott> d10:created by25:Transmission/2.04 (11151)13:creation datei1287165549e8:encoding5:UTF-84:infod6:lengthi2323076e4:name24:transmission-2.10.tar.xz12:piece lengthi32768e6:pieces1420:<BINARY>
19:10:22 <quintopia> elliott: the AI that reaches singularity first
19:10:26 <elliott> pikhq: I chop off everything from 1 to the last :, right?
19:10:40 <elliott> quintopia: "seed AI"/"Omega"/"singularity ai"
19:10:42 <Mathnerd314> elliott: people could just change all the http links to magnet links
19:10:47 <elliott> Mathnerd314: not that easy
19:11:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:11:33 <quintopia> singularity is the moment where AI goes transhuman and transforms everything. it makes sense to talk about things that exist post-singularity, even if you're not used to it
19:11:49 <elliott> your terminology is seriously defective
19:11:54 <elliott> and i was not complaining about "post-singularity"
19:12:08 <elliott> I was complaining about "the *first* *post*-singularity AI"
19:12:16 <elliott> i.e. the first AI to come after the singularity -- which was not what you meant
19:12:31 <Mathnerd314> elliott: sure, you'd need browser support. but otherwise it's not too hard
19:12:45 <oerjan> ...you might have a superintelligent humanity group mind. that would be transhuman, no? >:)
19:12:45 <quintopia> and yes, an AI can be transhuman...when it can do everything a human can do and more
19:12:56 <elliott> quintopia: your terminology is *seriously* defective, ask anyone else knowledgeable about this and they will agree
19:13:00 <elliott> and you don't know what transhuman means
19:13:11 <elliott> Mathnerd314: http doesn't work like that
19:13:17 <elliott> magnet just identifies a certain piece of data
19:13:30 <elliott> a url can have its contents changed
19:13:34 <elliott> which would change the magnet link...
19:13:43 <oerjan> it could be partially artificial ... there's no reason why an AI must be wholly inorganic
19:13:49 <quintopia> transhuman usually refers to augmenting humans. but there is nothing seriously flawed about using it to refer to a state of being more than human (aka, human plus)
19:14:02 <quintopia> and an AI that can do everything a human can and more is human plus
19:14:38 <quintopia> also, *insert Humpty Dumpty quote about word meanings here*
19:15:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: regardless, it is not as simple as s/http/magnet/ at all
19:15:17 <Sgeo> Why can't an AI be entirely organic?
19:15:22 <elliott> magnet isn't anything like http
19:15:25 <elliott> Sgeo: because then it'd be an I
19:15:42 <quintopia> you can have an entirely organic AI
19:15:51 <Sgeo> If it was designed by humans, though
19:16:04 <elliott> oh come on, that definition sucks
19:16:17 <elliott> after an AI self-improves itself N times, we did relatively very little on it
19:16:19 <quintopia> what does "artificial" mean if not "made by artifice"
19:16:24 <elliott> so to use "AI" to claim authorship is just... wrong
19:16:36 <Sgeo> If the seed AI was designed by humans, ten
19:16:36 <elliott> quintopia: yes, the literal expansion of AI is a stupid term which is why nobody uses it any more
19:16:41 <elliott> AI is used to mean machine intelligence
19:16:54 <elliott> Sgeo: i don't think you realise that the work a self-improving seed AI would do to itself would far surpass any human effort
19:17:03 <Sgeo> What about a self-modifying organic intellect?
19:17:08 <elliott> quintopia: OMG TERMINOLOGY IS VAGUE HELP
19:17:15 <elliott> this is boring, i'm not talking about it any more
19:17:36 <quintopia> using AI to claim authorship is not what we're doing. if the AI bootstraps itself, it is *still* using artifice: it authors itself
19:17:55 <quintopia> and if we augment our own intelligence, we become semi-AIs
19:18:43 <quintopia> also, rage-quitting arguments is seriously lame
19:18:45 <Gregor> And if we continue to talk about pseudo-philosophical pseudo-scientific nonsense like the singularity on #esoteric, we become morons.
19:18:58 <catseye> the singularity is an event that is independent of any AI... i claim
19:19:01 <oerjan> thought: mathematicians are already semi-AIs in that sense
19:19:17 <quintopia> oerjan: EVERYONE is a cyborg these days
19:19:26 <quintopia> except maybe random african children
19:19:37 <elliott> Gregor: Always good to know we'll have someone to reject things without justification, probably because "IT SOUNDS LIKE SCI-FI LOL"
19:19:38 <oerjan> quintopia: um cybernetic is a different word again
19:19:57 <elliott> Actually I'll let pikhq do my arguing for me, since this is boring and Gregor is about to spew bullshit in approx. 30 seconds.
19:20:04 <oerjan> i think _that_ is more clearly about machines
19:20:22 <Gregor> It is amazing the kind of silliness that gets discussed on #esoteric sometimes.
19:20:26 <quintopia> this could have been a good discussion
19:20:44 <elliott> Gregor: Argumentum ad SIGH, you children.
19:21:00 <Sgeo> Even if an AI comes to being but it says "Well, no signularity in this universe", we'll still have some improvements
19:21:04 <elliott> Then shut the fuck up, because everyone who has ever read the word "singularity" has heard it 1,000 times before.
19:21:05 <Gregor> I'm not making any point within your current debate.
19:21:18 -!- kiwigrin has left (?).
19:21:20 <catseye> i can PROVE that the signularity is an event independent of any AI! any better?
19:21:34 * Gregor bashes his head into a wall.
19:21:37 <quintopia> oerjan: in any case, we were always talking about machine augmentation, whether said machines be organic or inorganic
19:21:51 <oerjan> Gregor: if the singularity isn't an esoteric topic in computing and programming, i don't know _what_ would be
19:21:53 <elliott> You don't have to hear any of our pseudo-scientific bullshit, and it saves us from your sighing bullshit.
19:22:18 <catseye> oerjan: a cheaply popularized topic?
19:22:24 * Sgeo turns colored nicknames on
19:22:33 <catseye> no wait, got the sense of oerjan's question wrong
19:22:53 <catseye> oerjan: denotational arrows, then.
19:23:17 <catseye> denotational arrows will lead us to the singularity
19:23:45 <oerjan> catseye: arrows would probably a good fit for denotational semantics of concatenative languages, i think
19:24:10 <quintopia> speaking of esoteric subjects in computing and intelligence, paul churchland is speaking here next tuesday
19:24:12 <catseye> oerjan: i know. they totally would. i am completely guessing but it feels so right.
19:24:53 <catseye> oerjan: i was also puzzling over how one would even approach denotational semantics of rewriting languages
19:25:13 <Sgeo> In #esoteric ?
19:25:35 <Sgeo> Damn you, you damn dirty shift key1
19:26:30 <Sgeo> I... don't know if it's me misremembering SGu's use of the reference, or if SGU was wrong
19:27:22 <oerjan> Argumentum ad suspirium
19:27:41 <quintopia> his address is on "Plato's Camera: How the Physical Brain Captures a Landscape of Abstract Universals"
19:28:04 <quintopia> maybe he'll show where the denotational arrows are in the brain
19:29:44 <oerjan> catseye: heh rewriting is just hideously intrinsically operational, isn't it
19:31:26 <oerjan> quintopia: you _have_ heard about plato's cave parable, i hope
19:32:08 <quintopia> it had occurred to me, but he might mean something entirely different
19:32:12 <oerjan> well it's almost certainly _alluding_ to it
19:33:47 <oerjan> ideas and abstract universals sound related, anyway
19:34:30 <elliott> pikhq: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:fd54a1a61e98443c0b089740a316bfcb6de4580b
19:35:06 <oerjan> <cheater> undefined indent structures ftl
19:35:20 <oerjan> since when are haskell's indent structures undefined...
19:35:37 <oerjan> they _are_ more complicated than python's, admittedly
19:38:57 <Vorpal> very complicated but afaik well defined
19:39:57 <Vorpal> elliott, more so than python at least
19:40:33 <Vorpal> elliott, and iirc it is a bit complicated if mixed with { } (sure you shouldn't do that, but that is irrelevant for how complicated the rules defined by the language are)
19:41:06 <elliott> Vorpal: haskell indent rule: "lines that start on the same column as the start of the block are part of it"
19:41:22 <elliott> there's one additional thing for do i think where if you just have a newline after a control structure, and an indent
19:41:28 <elliott> then that counts as the first column
19:41:38 <elliott> that's not even an exception really
19:42:06 <Vorpal> elliott, okay then, would you be able to agree that they give rise to complicated behaviour though?
19:42:35 <quintopia> elliott: the transmission-qt binary is called qtr for some damned strange reason
19:42:52 <oerjan> well the really complicated part is the syntax-error rule for adding }'s
19:43:47 <oerjan> if a lexical token is a syntax error at a spot, haskell tries to see if it can be removed by ending a block first
19:44:13 <oerjan> this allows such things as one-liners
19:44:25 <oerjan> !haskell let x = 2+2 in x+x
19:44:41 <elliott> quintopia: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:fd54a1a61e98443c0b089740a316bfcb6de4580b? or the ski one
19:44:45 <oerjan> the syntax error rule is what ends the block before the in
19:44:52 <Vorpal> <oerjan> if a lexical token is a syntax error at a spot, haskell tries to see if it can be removed by ending a block first <-- ouch XD
19:44:56 <elliott> catseye: worst interpreter ever :D
19:45:14 <elliott> quintopia: not sure which one that is ... wait that's ubuntu i think
19:45:19 <elliott> you should get peers very quickly second time onwards
19:46:43 <Vorpal> elliott, hm does the torrent client cache know peers for future times it is run?
19:46:49 <quintopia> is there anyway to specify the first peer?
19:46:54 <elliott> Vorpal: i think it stores some sort of peers. maybe.
19:47:02 <Vorpal> quintopia, no DHT peers or no peers on the magnet link?
19:47:05 <elliott> quintopia: no, and even if you could -- you can in the magnet -- that would defeat the *whole* point of this exercise
19:47:18 <elliott> you need to have your dht port open
19:47:27 <elliott> go to preferences, network tab
19:47:34 <elliott> well that's not just the dht port but
19:47:44 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:47:46 <elliott> quintopia: forward that port as TCP in your router
19:47:54 -!- EgoBot has joined.
19:47:57 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the charm of ipv6, no need to mess with buggy routers
19:48:12 <elliott> just not yet forwarded.....
19:48:15 <catseye> oerjan: btw, i realize the conflict with lambdabot. can you suggest a better control character?
19:48:22 <elliott> quintopia: forward 6881 on UDP too for good measure
19:48:34 <elliott> quintopia: then restart the torrent; if it is the ubuntu one, it'll get peers ridiculously quickly
19:49:24 -!- Harpyon has joined.
19:49:33 <quintopia> elliott: i think the port is open, but the test IP for transmission is a blacklisted IP
19:49:39 <elliott> quintopia: seriously? Why?
19:50:01 <quintopia> moblock blacklists are ridiculously conservative
19:50:03 <Vorpal> elliott, but for being a buggy home router, it has a remarkable number of features in the telnet interface (that are missing from the web UI). SNMP, syslog forwarding, RIP (I haven't tried it, since it could mess up badly if you don't know exactly what you are doing), ipsec forwarding (no ipsec server or ipsec client sadly) and so on
19:50:15 <Mathnerd314> elliott: 5 minutes of fd5... and no peers?
19:50:29 <catseye> oerjan: i was considering ?
19:50:33 <elliott> Mathnerd314: well, i'm the only seeder and i think my seeding might be broken :D
19:50:36 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i guess i'll try and fix that
19:50:51 <oerjan> catseye: i think lambdabot uses that too but only for a couple commands
19:50:53 <catseye> maybe something in the upper echelons of unicode would be a nice change though
19:50:59 <elliott> quintopia: unblock it then :p
19:51:09 <elliott> lambdabot accepts ? for everything
19:51:16 * oerjan isn't sure what they were
19:51:19 <Vorpal> catseye, what about % ?
19:51:25 <elliott> Vorpal: blahbot` uses that
19:51:26 <Vorpal> catseye, I don't know any bot using it
19:51:39 <elliott> lambdabot isn't here either
19:51:42 <quintopia> elliott: where is University of Obviousness located?
19:51:44 <elliott> but we should avoid prefix clashes full stop
19:51:48 <Vorpal> okay what about ¤ then
19:52:02 <elliott> Mathnerd314: maybe transmission is failing a bit at this
19:52:05 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i'll try another client
19:52:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, catseye, elliott, ?, no bot uses that iirc?
19:52:11 * oerjan blasphemically suggests "storkbot: "
19:52:20 <elliott> Vorpal: we *just said* ? and dismissed it
19:52:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, you mean "storkbot[:,] "
19:52:29 <Vorpal> elliott, on what grounds?
19:52:33 <elliott> Vorpal: no, fags who use "," after nicks are... fags
19:52:37 <elliott> Vorpal: lambdabot uses ? too
19:52:49 <Vorpal> elliott, why can't it stick to one prefix?
19:53:00 <elliott> Vorpal: because it's lambdabot and it can do whatever the fuck it wants
19:53:15 <Sgeo> elliott, XChat seems to default to ,
19:53:19 <fizzie> I find ~ very botty; was that already used by someone?
19:53:40 <elliott> "." is reserved for botte.
19:53:57 <fizzie> I'll reserve the snowman for Extended Fungot 2.0.
19:54:35 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't recall that
19:55:04 <Vorpal> elliott, oh wait, - was not it, it was ;
19:55:04 <oerjan> did anyone use "," yet
19:55:34 <fizzie> I'll take the [a-z] range, m'kay?
19:55:41 <Vorpal> elliott, solution: match ^;[A-Za-z]
19:56:06 <Vorpal> elliott, and ignore ;P obviously
19:56:26 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ok restart it
19:56:29 <elliott> Mathnerd314: it should get me now
19:56:33 <elliott> my DHT is increasing in nodes
19:57:03 <Vorpal> elliott, that too, probably it should be ;[A-Za-z]{2,} or such
19:57:13 <elliott> with . all i have to handle is ...
19:57:16 <Vorpal> elliott, even though ;z is not very common
19:57:24 <elliott> ;z is the best smiley ever
19:57:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't say .P
19:57:32 <oerjan> Vorpal: you know it would be simpler to ignore things that _aren't_ commands
19:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, but what does it mean?
19:57:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, it would be nice to get errors for typoed commands though
19:58:32 <quintopia> bleh the port is closed even with moblock stopped. i have no control over my router
19:58:52 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I don't think that - at the beginning of a line is very common on irc
19:59:06 <elliott> Vorpal: you're not very common on irc
19:59:18 <elliott> maybe I'll use "Vorpal: " as my prefix
19:59:19 <Vorpal> elliott, let me check logs
19:59:38 <Vorpal> elliott, that would just be nasty :P
19:59:54 <elliott> Mathnerd314: this is not going so well :D
20:00:04 <elliott> Mathnerd314: apparently peers are "0 (2)"
20:00:07 <elliott> which makes little sense to me
20:00:34 <elliott> Mathnerd314: wait the magnet link has changed :V
20:00:54 <elliott> Mathnerd314: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:7vkkdjq6tbcdycyis5akgfv7znw6iwal
20:00:56 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that should work
20:00:58 <elliott> you can discard the old one
20:01:01 <fizzie> elliott: You have a very strange mouth. (Cf. ;z, :V.)
20:01:11 <elliott> fizzie: :V is pretty common
20:01:27 <quintopia> AGH transmission is broked? i have moblock stopped and it still claims even port 80 is closed >_>
20:01:38 <fizzie> I guess it's some sort of side-profile two-eyes-on-one-side style maybe?
20:02:06 <elliott> quintopia: something else is most likely broked
20:02:26 <Mathnerd314> elliott: deluge won't accept that magnet link
20:02:38 <elliott> fizzie: I have an excellent depiction of :V here, but it in a badly-drawn comic that's blatantly offensive for no reason at all.
20:02:51 <quintopia> well, transmission is the only thing unable to make connections, so i don't know what else it could be
20:02:53 <elliott> Mathnerd314: what does it say? o_O
20:03:20 <elliott> Mathnerd314: lemme try pikhq :P
20:03:23 <elliott> pikhq: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:7vkkdjq6tbcdycyis5akgfv7znw6iwal
20:03:39 <Vorpal> elliott, "<elliott> Vorpal: you're not very common on irc" <-- if you meant I was wrong:
20:03:47 <Vorpal> select a.cnt / b.cnt from (select count(*) as cnt from irc.logs where body like '-%') as a, (select count(*) as cnt from irc.logs) as b;
20:04:09 <elliott> i even chopped off the name from the end
20:04:17 <pikhq> elliott: Waiting on yonder DHT
20:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, 3229 / 1861108
20:04:23 <elliott> Vorpal: wouldn't it be 0 for all <0.5 though?
20:04:26 <Vorpal> elliott, that is insignificantly few :P
20:04:35 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, I thought it would be float?
20:04:38 <pikhq> elliott: What is it, BTW?
20:04:46 <elliott> pikhq: Transmission 2.10 :P
20:04:49 <elliott> pikhq: It didn't work for Mathnerd314
20:04:51 <elliott> So it might not work for you
20:04:55 <elliott> (his rejected the magnet link)
20:05:01 <elliott> But he does use EVIL EVIL DELUGE
20:05:02 <pikhq> elliott: What you seeding it with?
20:05:23 <Vorpal> elliott, less than 0.2 %
20:05:29 <pikhq> "DHT disabled" WHAAAT
20:06:31 <elliott> fizzie: Admittedly that depiction sheds no light whatsoever on what :V actually represents.
20:06:40 * pikhq puts it into Transmission
20:07:05 <pikhq> elliott: CASCADE WOULD BE AWESOME
20:08:06 <Mathnerd314> what was cascade again? the trackerless bittorent client?
20:08:08 <Vorpal> elliott, what depiction?
20:08:30 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Or, in this case, just my platonic ideal BitTorrent client :P
20:08:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, graph request: a pie chart or something over the different smiles used in here!
20:10:02 <Vorpal> Mathnerd314, I had 500 within seconds of starting ktorrent
20:10:24 <Mathnerd314> they've been steadily decreasing since I opened Deluge
20:10:42 <Vorpal> Mathnerd314, sounds like a shitty bittorrent client
20:11:14 <Vorpal> elliott, ktorrent managed just fine
20:11:36 <Vorpal> elliott, just took a few minutes to to sucky router making forwarding the port impossible
20:11:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Download magnet:?xt=urn:btih:7vkkdjq6tbcdycyis5akgfv7znw6iwal, then!
20:11:50 <elliott> Maybe *you'll* have all the luck.
20:11:59 <Vorpal> elliott, how large is it?
20:12:06 <elliott> Vorpal: 2.2 MiB. Easy enough to cancel.
20:12:10 <Vorpal> elliott, and what is it?
20:12:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Transmission 2.10. It's just to see if I can make trackerless torrents work.
20:12:36 <elliott> ALTERNATE ANSWER: Child pornography
20:12:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I will go as far as it popping up the file dialog, then no further
20:12:48 <Vorpal> elliott, should show if it works at least
20:12:55 <elliott> They only show after it finds it on DHT.
20:13:06 <elliott> All that would tell you is that... it can parse a magnet link.
20:13:10 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, no, I have peers
20:13:13 <Vorpal> elliott, and that DHT works
20:13:14 <elliott> They just aren't downloading from me
20:13:20 <elliott> Vorpal: so you'd have to get at least a byte
20:13:21 <Vorpal> elliott, ah I can test that
20:13:27 <pikhq> elliott: I can see you but I've got no metadata.
20:13:43 <pikhq> elliott: You are sending me none of the metadata you whore.
20:14:09 <elliott> pikhq: how did you seed with qbittorrent?
20:14:18 <pikhq> elliott: ... I just plugged in the torrent.
20:14:43 <elliott> pikhq: Could the fact that I lowercased the-- no.
20:15:15 <pikhq> elliott: URIs are case insensitive.
20:15:15 <Vorpal> elliott, not much DHT luck on this one so far
20:15:30 <elliott> http://fuckbutts.com/PoOp != /poop
20:15:53 <pikhq> It's just the domain name that's case insensitive.
20:15:54 <elliott> pikhq: But yeah no that's not it.
20:16:02 <elliott> pikhq: WHY WON'T YOU DOWNLOAD
20:16:04 <Vorpal> elliott, http://example.com/ == http://EXAMPLE.com/
20:16:05 <elliott> pikhq: Try loading it in another client
20:16:47 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe the error is on your side?
20:16:54 <Vorpal> elliott, one peer on the magnet
20:17:01 * Mathnerd314 wonders if clicking on http://fuckbutts.com/PoOp is a bad idea
20:17:15 <Vorpal> elliott, and then back to 0
20:17:38 <elliott> Mathnerd314: redirects to teenflesh.com/PoOp which is 404'd
20:17:42 <elliott> Vorpal: It may be on my side.
20:17:45 <elliott> That is what I am trying to figure out.
20:17:53 <elliott> pikhq: Do I need to forward any ports on UDP?
20:17:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I had one magnet peer, then a few seconds 0
20:17:59 <elliott> I have 6881 on UDP and <long port> on TCP.
20:18:07 <elliott> The long port one is the one I have set in qBittorrent.
20:18:14 <pikhq> elliott: Well, I'm currently connected to a KTorrent in Norway.
20:18:24 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to set an udp port for DHT
20:18:27 <pikhq> DHT's still bootstrapping, though.
20:18:49 <Vorpal> I have now again one magnet peer
20:18:59 <pikhq> elliott: Depends on the client; should be the same as the TCP port.
20:19:09 <Vorpal> still not enough to download the magnet it seems
20:19:20 <pikhq> elliott: This would actually explain some of the difficulty you've had with it.
20:19:25 <pikhq> elliott: Now I see you.
20:19:30 <pikhq> And am downloading.
20:19:46 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, guess we needed to wait, then.
20:19:50 <Vorpal> accept the fact: DHT is slow
20:19:51 <elliott> pikhq: But I forwarded UDP now too.
20:19:58 <elliott> I got pikhq's file very quickly.
20:20:05 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, pure luck
20:20:08 <elliott> Just because you want to explain this away as being slow doesn't mean that is the explanation.
20:20:11 <pikhq> And I got elliot's within a minute.
20:20:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I very much doubt you know a single thing about how DHT works theoretically or practically. Explain a DHT to me in theoretical terms.
20:20:32 <quintopia> SPELL ELIOTT'S NAME WITH TWO T'S PLEASE
20:20:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: We're testing the *slowest possible case* for DHT.
20:20:37 <catseye> oerjan: i was also considering giving a rewriting semantics for a rewriting language (in some way that isn't trivially meta-circular)...
20:20:40 <elliott> If you can't, how can you possibly explain why DHT is slow?
20:20:53 <elliott> Every problem we have had was due to misconfiguration.
20:20:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, and now I'm seeding to you.
20:20:54 <Vorpal> qbittorrent in US? Is that pikhq?
20:21:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes, see how useful the country thingy was :P
20:21:04 <elliott> pikhq: You have the file now?
20:21:12 <Vorpal> err, redirect that to elliott
20:21:19 <catseye> as for botchars, ~ is alright. % and & are ugly. | might be ok.
20:21:21 <elliott> pikhq: Now I'll try another!~
20:21:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't see you
20:21:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I just saw you. Briefly.
20:21:49 <elliott> pikhq has a phatter pipe than me, so it's probably preferring him.
20:22:09 <pikhq> Anyways, we have been testing the slowest possible case for DHT, and it's taking not too long to work.
20:22:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, your upload speed must be horrible to live with
20:22:24 <elliott> ITT: people don't allocate full bandwidth to torrents
20:22:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: I'm seeding *oodles* of other things.
20:22:34 <elliott> <pikhq> Vorpal: I'm seeding *oodles* of other things.
20:22:42 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't see that one
20:22:58 <pikhq> I usually have something like 100-200 kbps up.
20:23:01 <catseye> need dedicated routers optimized for dht to reinvent internets
20:23:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, around 100 for me
20:23:53 <pikhq> Anyways. If you do this on an even *slightly* popular torrent, then it works nearly instantly.
20:24:16 <pikhq> And with 2 peers you may have to wait a bit.
20:24:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, 3 now, I'm still seeding it
20:24:41 <elliott> Anyone want another file?!?!?!?!
20:24:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, ratio limit is set at 1.50 here by default
20:24:48 <Vorpal> elliott, not really no
20:25:02 * Vorpal looks for a suitable file
20:25:03 <pikhq> elliott: No, but I'm going to demonstrate how fast I can download a vaguely popular torrent. :)
20:25:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Make sure to strip trackers out of the .torrent!
20:25:19 <pikhq> Single episode of a currently airing show, away!
20:25:23 <elliott> It's even original content.
20:25:26 <Vorpal> elliott, of course, and starting IPs too
20:25:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Edit the .torrent and remove everything from "10:" to the encoding field (with the number before it).
20:25:53 <elliott> That's the smallest possible torrent for that file.
20:26:00 <elliott> Also, strip out everything after the ?xt= in the magnet URI.
20:26:14 <pikhq> elliott: Dude. Torrentz indexes the infohash of a torrent.
20:26:27 <pikhq> elliott: You can go completely without any of the indexes the torrent file is on.
20:26:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't need to upload the torrent file or?
20:26:52 <pikhq> You'll just need to turn it into a magnet URI (prefix magnet:?xt=urn:btih:) and you can download it.
20:26:55 <elliott> Vorpal: As long as anyone who has it's client is on and connected to DHT, it will work.
20:27:05 <elliott> pikhq: I don't get the relevance to torrentz.
20:27:05 <pikhq> elliott: And if you prefer to do it "right" you can also include the trackers.
20:27:15 <pikhq> elliott: Torrentz stores the infohashes for torrents.
20:27:24 <Vorpal> elliott, looking for a suitable file
20:27:42 <elliott> pikhq: omg cascade will so open torrentz.com URLs
20:27:46 <Vorpal> elliott, no such file :P
20:27:49 <elliott> pikhq: by using the info hash and importing the trackers
20:27:53 <Vorpal> elliott, found a file at 4.6 MB
20:27:55 <elliott> Vorpal: you know what i mean
20:27:58 <Vorpal> and slightly interesting
20:28:03 <Vorpal> more than my kernel anyway
20:28:19 <elliott> DOES NOBODY WANT THE 10.7 KIB FILE
20:28:22 <pikhq> elliott: Gotta love magnet URIs.
20:28:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sure, why not; here's some raw data: http://p.zem.fi/esosmile -- note that several (at least "Bo", "BC", "XX" and so) are somewhat likely to not be actually used in a smiley context; maybe I should add some "not immediately surrounded by alphanumerics" additions.
20:28:51 <elliott> We are a very worrisome people.
20:29:06 <elliott> :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-(
20:29:44 <Vorpal> elliott, it says I must add at least one node to the dht thingy
20:29:57 <Vorpal> elliott, what am I supposed to do there
20:30:05 <elliott> Vorpal: your client is a nazi
20:30:09 <elliott> use transmission to create the torrent instead
20:30:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: The preliminary spec says that you need to list a DHT node in the torrent. De facto, it's optional.
20:30:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah, so it follows the spec
20:31:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: If it actually followed the spec that would be unimplemented.
20:31:28 <pikhq> As would IPv6 support.
20:32:10 <elliott> People hate my files and I hate them.
20:32:17 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/esosmile-2 has top-100 instead of top-50, and additional (?<!\w) in front and (?!\w) at end.
20:32:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, can I just strip the e5:nodesll12:11.22.33.444i6881eeee bit
20:32:44 <quintopia> fizzie: would it match >________________________________________> ?
20:32:48 <elliott> Only if you understand bencode.
20:32:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, that seems to be the only mention of the dummy ip I added
20:33:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about the eeee?
20:33:05 <fizzie> quintopia: No, it's a bit limited. It only considers things that match (?<!\w)>?[:;XB8|][=^-]?[()Xx/\|\[\]pPdDoOCcVv#&$*<>{}](?!\w)|\(?[:;^'>][_-][:;^'<]\)? to be smileys.
20:33:16 <pikhq> That may be the end of a dictionary entry.
20:33:20 <pikhq> Hard to tell without context.
20:33:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, last thing in file
20:33:52 <elliott> By not downloading my new file, you are holding back the DHTnet!
20:34:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: You should be able to remove the "5:nodesll12:11.22.33.444i6881eee" just fine.
20:34:53 <pikhq> The preceding e is the end of the info dictionary, the following e is the end of the whole file.
20:34:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, I removed e5nodes.... until the 4 e
20:35:13 <pikhq> Eeeh, accepting parser.
20:35:24 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:35:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, magnet:?xt=urn:btih:0888e352cd42c175cd00041ee3a0d080f494d642 there is some &dn=filename stuff there, I guess I can cut that away :P
20:35:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, lenient in what you accent and stringent in what you send
20:35:55 <elliott> worst phrasing of postel's law ever
20:36:06 <pikhq> Anyways. I plugged in a lightly popular torrent's infohash to my client, and it started downloading from pretty much all of the hosts instantly.
20:36:06 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, but I'm lazy
20:36:14 <quintopia> fizzie: i'm a bit fuzzy on my regexes, but wouldn't [_-] -> [[_]*-] or something like that fix it?
20:36:19 <Vorpal> elliott, weird typo even
20:36:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and nice stats
20:36:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, is BO really a smiley though?
20:36:56 <fizzie> quintopia: Not exactly, you can't repeat inside a [] character list.
20:36:58 <pikhq> Granted, only a small amount came from DHT; after it got started on DHT, everyone else jumped on via peer exchange.
20:37:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Probably not; I don't see BO in the -2 version.
20:37:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is a new one?
20:37:36 <elliott> Vorpal: This may take a while.
20:37:42 <Vorpal> elliott, what? that magnet? yes
20:37:48 <quintopia> fizzie: how is it you do "either this character or one or more of those characters"? I know a + must be involved...
20:37:49 <fizzie> Even in -2, the "BC" is most likely not a smiley.
20:37:52 <elliott> So this will actually never work.
20:38:10 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, how comes it worked from me to you
20:38:15 <Vorpal> elliott, if I don't do ipv4
20:38:26 <elliott> Vorpal: You clearly do IPv4 for peers.
20:38:26 <fizzie> quintopia: (x|y+) would work for "x or one or more y's". Or (?:x|y+) if the ()-capturing matters.
20:38:48 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I do seed for tcp
20:38:53 <Vorpal> elliott, tcp forwarding works fine
20:39:08 <Vorpal> elliott, meh I'll try to fix the udp thingy for ipv4
20:39:19 <elliott> pikhq: TOTALLY MY NEW FILE RIGHT?
20:39:35 <Vorpal> elliott, if I time out you know I failed and I'm busy doing a factory reset to fix it :P
20:39:58 <Vorpal> it just worked this time
20:40:05 <Vorpal> elliott, in theory ipv4 should now work
20:40:31 <Vorpal> elliott, might take some time though
20:40:40 <elliott> I'll say when I get a peer.
20:41:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh no, not a fucking panorama. Fuck you.
20:42:12 <elliott> (to support new appliactions of DHT technology)
20:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a small one
20:42:32 <Vorpal> elliott, be happy I didn't pick a 70 MB tiff one
20:42:33 <elliott> You are obsessed with them :P
20:42:54 <Vorpal> elliott, besides this is an old one
20:42:56 <elliott> File downloaded. I refuse to seed and will now delete it. But it worked, and amazingly quickly.
20:43:19 <Vorpal> elliott, don't you plan to look at it?
20:43:37 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, it was 1 minute from me adding it to the download starting, almost exactly.
20:43:51 <Vorpal> elliott, somewhat yes :P, slower than tracker certainly
20:43:53 <elliott> Note that nobody else was seeding it and I was the first person to ask for it, pretty much.
20:44:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Also a whole lot less painful than a tracker. ...and no legal grey areas for those who operate the trackers, either.
20:44:27 <elliott> Publishing a magnet URI is surely legal as it amounts to posting a file list with sizes and checksums.
20:44:37 <elliott> (Of course the *US* courts can always bullshit their way around this...)
20:44:45 <elliott> Well, it's publishing a HASH of a file list with sizes and checksums.
20:44:46 <pikhq> elliott: Nay, it amounts to posting a single checksum.
20:44:49 <Vorpal> elliott, hm perhaps I should seed some combination of envbot, cfunge, and efunge packed up in lisp.tar.xz (Lots of Interesting Software Packages) :D
20:44:56 <Vorpal> oh wait, I gave it away ;)
20:45:14 <elliott> pikhq: not if you have multiple files in the torrent
20:45:27 <pikhq> elliott: A magnet URI is just the infohash.
20:45:34 <elliott> pikhq: That's what I said.
20:45:37 <elliott> <elliott> Well, it's publishing a HASH of a file list with sizes and checksums.
20:45:41 <pikhq> Which *happens* to be the index in a hash table.
20:45:57 <pikhq> Aaaargh, distinction between hash and checksum!
20:46:39 <Vorpal> seeded to a ratio of 1.65
20:46:56 <pikhq> You also seeded to me.
20:47:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, and you also got from elliott?
20:47:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, I thought he deleted it?
20:47:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Deleting it would be spending time on that file.
20:47:46 <Vorpal> elliott, ooh, I can inject files on your harddrive this way, that you will refuse to delete
20:48:48 <elliott> On the other hand, it is always good to stand up for what you believe in.
20:49:27 -!- aloril has joined.
20:49:50 <Vorpal> elliott, now to try the same over usenet ;)
20:53:52 <Sgeo> What did elliott not want to spend time on?
20:54:30 <Sgeo> Trying to impress a lady wizard?
20:54:55 * Sgeo ponders for a bit
20:55:08 <Sgeo> Hmm, there's at least one female wizard
20:57:05 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/smile.png -- smile distributions for four randomly (okay, not so randomly) chosen on-channel people and then ten globally most popular preset smileys.
20:57:45 <fizzie> Things to note: ais is a very unhappy person, and I can't keep my tongue in my mouth.
20:58:38 <elliott> fizzie: That plot... it's...
20:58:45 <elliott> fizzie: Ever heard of a bar chart?
20:59:26 <fizzie> elliott: Gnuplot sucks badly when it comes to those. (Okay, so they can be done, but it's horrible fiddling for multi-bar cases, needs bar-widths and manual X position adjustments.)
20:59:52 <fizzie> Besides, using line points like that to show multidimensional data has a long tradition. There's even a name for it, I think.
21:01:36 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_coordinates
21:02:01 <fizzie> I guess it shouldn't have the points in that case.
21:04:11 <Gregor> There is no Xom. There is only Zuul.
21:04:32 * Zuu cuddles Gregor
21:04:50 <Gregor> Zuu is just Zuul missing an 'l'
21:05:04 <Zuu> Yes, soneone stole it :P
21:05:21 <Gregor> Presumably the person who owns the nick "Zuul" on FreeNode!
21:06:02 <Gregor> It is the nineties and there is time for RETRIBUTION!
21:06:15 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Hmm, there's at least one female wizard <-- who made appearances in two books yes
21:06:30 <Sgeo> Two? I thought just one
21:06:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, ignore that, spoiler for very recent book
21:06:48 <Sgeo> Unless there's a newer book... ah
21:06:51 <Vorpal> well, not much a spoiler really
21:07:01 <Sgeo> I haven't been keeping up :(
21:07:04 <Vorpal> more of cameo appearance :P
21:07:12 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:08:17 <pikhq> I still love how a single hash is sufficient for BitTorrent.
21:08:25 <elliott> pikhq: Only because of DHT.
21:08:37 <elliott> pikhq: Now srsly, tell me you don't want to reinvent the internet by writing an awesome DHT and building everything on top of it.
21:08:38 <pikhq> elliott: Yes. And it is wonderful.
21:08:42 <elliott> (Freenet doesn't actually use a DHT.)
21:09:34 <pikhq> (traditional switched networking is *definitely* better for certain things. A DHT is awesome for the web, though.)
21:10:00 <pikhq> Gaaah. Another reason we should have global multicast.
21:10:10 <pikhq> We could replace IRC with inherently multicast chatrooms.
21:10:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, I guess mail and irc would be examples where traditional is better
21:10:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, also think of ajax
21:10:28 * Gregor sneezes, accidentally mentioning the recent trend towards "data-oriented networking" (hint: Google that term!) and how that makes more sense ...
21:10:57 <Gregor> Won't somebody think of the AJAX???
21:11:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, I never said I liked ajax, but it is sadly here, and does seem to want to stay
21:12:51 <pikhq> Gregor: BUTBUTHASHES
21:13:08 <Gregor> pikhq: BUTBUT all data-oriented networking systems are based on hashes.
21:13:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, one thing I never understood with multicast: how would core routers on the internet know where to forward it, or would they actually broadcast it?
21:13:41 <elliott> <pikhq> (traditional switched networking is *definitely* better for certain things. A DHT is awesome for the web, though.)
21:13:45 <elliott> NO IT WILL REPLACE ... SOME THINGS
21:14:10 <elliott> pikhq: What we should replace IRC with is my protocol.
21:14:31 <elliott> Which was automatically democratic, totally encrypted and totally decentralised! Think DirectNet but way better.
21:14:43 <elliott> Because DirectNet is basically shovelled donkey shit on a steaming plate full of crap, served with piss.
21:14:46 <elliott> And its author is a tramp.
21:15:00 <elliott> Good thing I have no idea who he is at all!
21:15:07 <elliott> And will never come into contact with him!
21:16:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: ... They know which nearby routers need the multicast stream.
21:16:44 <pikhq> Sorry, which nearby *hosts*.
21:16:48 <pikhq> Not necessarily a router.
21:16:56 <pikhq> It's the same protocol for both.
21:17:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, there is protocol to broadcast streams you want?
21:17:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, how do you implement it on LAN level
21:18:47 <pikhq> Vorpal: IGMP is used to advertise that you want to join a stream.
21:19:03 <Sgeo> I.... clicked on a link to install Google ... voice and video thingy
21:19:09 <Sgeo> And it just started installing
21:19:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: You need at least one multicast router to have it work on a LAN.
21:19:29 <quintopia> is there a cuddle protocol for DHT?
21:19:32 -!- aloril has joined.
21:19:51 <elliott> quintopia: THERE CAN BE IF YOU CONVINCE PIKHQ TO REINVENT THE INTERNET WITH ME
21:19:55 <pikhq> This does not necessarily have to be an IP router, especially if you don't want the multicast to propagate outside of your LAN.
21:21:05 <pikhq> Also, there's a defined set of multicast MACs; switches will either figure out which hosts want packets from which multicast MACs or just broadcast the multicast MACs, and let listeners discard unwanted packets.
21:22:51 <elliott> pikhq is now ignoring me in shame.
21:24:19 <quintopia> everybody get up, it's time to slam now. here's yo chance, do yo dance at the space jam!
21:25:44 <Sgeo> Isn't there another elliott?
21:26:13 <elliott> Probably, but I have his name.
21:26:18 <elliott> And he or she can't gave it.
21:26:25 <elliott> Sucks to be every Elliott but me.
21:26:26 <Sgeo> I meant in this channel
21:26:43 <elliott> He's just a moron that came by once or twice to plug his shitty not-esoteric-at-all language.
21:26:55 <elliott> He also did bullshit in #ircnomic.
21:27:11 <elliott> Specifically he was part of the Fuck Up The Ruleset Overnight Because We're 10 Years Old brigade.
21:27:28 <elliott> He's also a Republican. In Alaska. That means he supported Palin.
21:28:36 <pikhq> elliott: Cascade should support downloading things with just an info hash.
21:28:42 <elliott> pikhq: DUH of course it will.
21:28:48 <nooga> drunken electronic musicians from denmark tried to make me to show my cock to them
21:28:53 <pikhq> Lots of things don't. Dunno why.
21:29:05 <Sgeo> http://www.thestar.com/news/torontog20summit/article/875746--accused-g20-ringleader-faces-breach-of-rights-lawyer-says?bn=1
21:29:07 <nooga> how crazy is that?
21:37:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, I wish the SixXS POP that I used was connected to mbone
21:37:24 <catseye> "lenient in what you accent and strident in what you send"
21:37:36 <catseye> sort of a warped postel's law for musicians and poets
21:37:44 <Vorpal> catseye, did I really write "strident"?
21:37:59 <catseye> i am forking your misquote
21:38:15 <Vorpal> catseye, ah, as long as you clearly mark it as a derivative
21:39:53 <catseye> SBC elvis is extremely disappointed
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21:41:02 <Gregor> I don't think I've ever seen more lines in a row that are completely incomprehensible.
21:43:06 <catseye> The Postel-Vorpal-Catseye Law of Stuff and Things
21:43:29 <catseye> to acknowledge its lineage, you see
21:43:39 <Sgeo> Gregor, I can start spamming
21:44:52 <oerjan> after all, Stuff and Things is mainly plastic
21:45:21 <Gregor> But ... but ... <3 PVC
21:45:48 <Gregor> You can't just take the name of a fine plumbing-slash-musical-instrument material!
21:45:57 <oerjan> sure, you can <3 PVC all you want. but be careful about asphyxiation.
21:46:21 <Gregor> oerjan: You don't <3 pipe with your mouth ...
21:46:58 <Gregor> Pffff, PVC percussion is too easy.
21:47:07 <oerjan> Gregor: i was more thinking bags here. hm maybe that's not pvc?
21:47:14 <Gregor> I prefer PVC winds and PVC horns.
21:47:19 <Gregor> oerjan: Prooooooooobably not PVC.
21:47:25 <quintopia> when was the last time you wrote a song for pipedrum organ, Gregor?
21:47:40 <Gregor> quintopia: My PVC instruments are all in the wind/horn family!
21:47:52 <oerjan> hm there definitely are PVC plastic bags
21:48:04 <Gregor> oerjan: Pfff, when I think PVC I think PVC pipe :P
21:48:17 <catseye> "Plastic shopping bags are usually made of polyethylene." claims wp
21:48:20 <quintopia> gregor: the pipe percussion instruments need your love too
21:56:40 <Vorpal> <Gregor> I don't think I've ever seen more lines in a row that are completely incomprehensible. <-- where?
21:58:39 <oerjan> wait, you mean he _wasn't_ talking about the channel?
21:58:48 <Vorpal> catseye maybe "lenient in what you accent and strident in what you scent"
22:00:06 <Vorpal> <quintopia> gregor: the pipe percussion instruments need your love too <-- pipe percussion... would that be like tubular bells?
22:00:10 <elliott> wait what was i going to reinvent in a minute?
22:00:28 <Vorpal> elliott, you were about to reinvent the NIH syndrome.
22:02:08 <Vorpal> quintopia, why is google picture results full of fake-looking aliens...
22:02:34 <catseye> wh... Vorpal is not familiar with Blue Man Group, I infer.
22:02:45 <Vorpal> catseye, ah. Fitting name
22:04:24 <oerjan> elliott: a cure against amnesia
22:04:46 <fizzie> With the leg bone connected to the MBONE... *humm humm*
22:05:03 <elliott> i disapprove of archaeology
22:05:33 <oerjan> yeah who cares about archs anyway
22:05:52 <fizzie> We used to get some sort of strange, academic multicasts back in the student housing, when it was a direct part of Funet/NORDUnet.
22:06:41 <oerjan> and now you cannot have fun any longer?
22:07:36 <fizzie> I don't live there any more; they moved the student network outside the university netblocks for securitamantic reasons, but it might be it still is Funet'd with fun.
22:07:58 <fizzie> "Funet participates in inter-domain multicast routing and is connected to other academic networks and communities as Internet2 via NORDUnet and Géant2."
22:08:17 <Vorpal> quintopia, I did that already
22:08:26 <Vorpal> (which why I didn't respond right away)
22:08:30 <Vorpal> very interesting sound
22:09:33 <Vorpal> <fizzie> With the leg bone connected to the MBONE... *humm humm* <-- what
22:09:33 <quintopia> Vorpal is going to the concert here in januaryish
22:09:49 <Vorpal> quintopia, wherever "here" is
22:10:03 <quintopia> i've only been to one live show, and it was the stage show
22:10:12 <quintopia> they're doing the rock concert though
22:10:21 <Vorpal> quintopia, do they keep sane level on the speakers?
22:10:24 <fizzie> Oh, and the student-run cable TV network still sticks the Finnish DVB streams directly into the IP network with multicast; technically it means that everyone with a networked computer (i.e. everyone) should be obligated to pay the "TV fee" (it's based on "being able to receive TV broadcasts", not actually doing that), but very few do.
22:10:38 <Vorpal> quintopia, all non-classical concerts/live shows I been to have been way too high volume
22:11:36 <quintopia> Vorpal: who knows? it depends on the venue doesn't it? and where you sit too...
22:12:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, err, how does one mess with multicast under linux?
22:12:28 <Vorpal> as in, what tools and such
22:12:47 <Vorpal> quintopia, usually quite far back
22:12:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: You used an appropriate word: it is indeed a mess.
22:13:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or rather, multicast routing is a mess. Just being an end node in a multicast network is no problem and happens pretty automagically, but if you have a single router-Linux and want the LAN behind it to be able to participate in the joys of multicast, then *that* is a mess.
22:14:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, lets assume I want my ipv6 linux router/tunnel end point to also do multicast?
22:15:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, and lets further assume I want to know how you act as a node
22:15:12 <Vorpal> I have no idea where to start with it
22:15:58 <elliott> pikhq: Fund Cascade development.
22:17:43 <fizzie> Well, "uh." I'm not exactly sure on the v6 side, actually. If you just want to act as a node, you shouldn't need to have to configure absolutely anything; it's all done with MLD, which does multicast discovery using ICMPv6 packets. Any applications you have just register to groups and start magically seeing the packets, and multicasting outside works equally magically.
22:18:00 <fizzie> But that assumes you have a multicast-enabled router there to handle it.
22:18:29 <fizzie> (On v4, the same magic is done with IGMP.)
22:19:03 <elliott> I know of at least one band whose show regularly reaches dB levels higher than a jet engine taking off...
22:20:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: As for routing, you need a router daemon, and for IPv4 they all were either completely abandoned projects, or horribly hairy systems that assumed you were doing BGP peering with your neighbours. From what I hear, though, is that for IPv6 multicast, http://fivebits.net/proj/mrd6/ is actually a pretty lean solution. It does mostly everything in userspace, but that's just a design detail.
22:21:14 <fizzie> For routing IPv4 multicast, it's... worse. (Though if you don't mind doing everything completely statically, there's smcroute.)
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22:23:11 <fizzie> Though now that I look at it, it actually seems that pimd has been revived from the "retired" status -- http://freshmeat.net/projects/pimd -- too.
22:23:58 <fizzie> I'd go with mrd6 if your scenario is "v6 tunnel with the other end offering multicast"; it's what they do.
22:25:36 <catseye> AHHH SOMEONE SAID BGP AHHHH IT WAS FIZZIE AHHHHH
22:26:43 <catseye> Strangely, when expanded, it has no effect on me.
22:27:31 <catseye> Actually, my knowledge of it is indirect -- I have only seen what it has done to friends of mine who were all into the networking and all.
22:28:00 * catseye shields himself by parsing that as "b,gpb,gpb,..."
22:30:29 <oerjan> uorygl posted this on reddit: http://cis.gvsu.edu/~swettt/crc.htm
22:31:53 <elliott> oerjan: That is the worst clock EVER.
22:31:59 <oerjan> TO SHOW THE TIME, OF COURSE
22:32:28 <oerjan> (reddit page: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dre3b/i_made_a_chinese_remainder_theorem_clock_it_tells/)
22:32:57 <elliott> oerjan: comment on it: "Here is an svg bezier clock with spinning chinese symbols: http://joelhewitt.s3.amazonaws.com/chin-time.xml" FAIL
22:33:05 <elliott> (it just has chinese characters warped to... tell the time badly)
22:34:46 <catseye> "I saw the word 'Chinese' in your post and this guy also saw the word 'Chinese' once, maybe at a restaurant? Anyway, link."
22:36:50 <catseye> uorygl's clock would be a mite cooler with three hands
22:39:09 <elliott> catseye: with all the hands moving at once? :p
22:40:26 <quintopia> oerjan: wouldn't it be possible to tell the time for three successive days with that clock? 3600/27=133.333...
22:40:28 <fizzie> A red, green and blue progress bar on top of each other, perhaps, with the ranges scaled to the same width.
22:41:08 <oerjan> !haskell 25*26*128/86400
22:41:19 <pikhq> fizzie: Vorpal: MLD makes it "just work".
22:41:23 <pikhq> For IPv6, that is.
22:41:25 <oerjan> !haskell 25*27*128/86400
22:41:31 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: As for routing, you need a router daemon, and for IPv4 they all were either completely abandoned projects, or horribly hairy systems that assumed you were doing BGP peering with your neighbours. From what I hear, though, is that for IPv6 multicast, http://fivebits.net/proj/mrd6/ is actually a pretty lean solution. It does mostly everything in userspace, but that's just a design detail. <-- like most ipv6 routing stuff
22:41:42 <catseye> EgoBot was AWOL last time there was a !haskell...
22:42:04 <catseye> or HackEgo or whichever is repsponsibble for !
22:42:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: About the only thing that's in kernelspace for routing is the actual routing table.
22:42:36 <oerjan> catseye: they're always slow at first, some ugly caching stuff
22:42:59 <oerjan> assuming they're actually working
22:43:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, okay, I have no experience with ipv4 routing under linux
22:43:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, I mean, as a router
22:43:10 <catseye> @tell oerjan mine's still working (if it is)
22:43:12 <Vorpal> only as a client there
22:43:19 <storkbot> oerjan: catseye told me to tell you: mine's still working (if it is)
22:43:28 <catseye> oerjan: it is a *very* stupid bot
22:43:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: You run a userspace daemon that runs the actual routing protocol; it then just dumps its routing table into Linux's routing table so things actually work.
22:43:52 <quintopia> anyone know if osu! runs with Wine/Mono?
22:43:52 <Vorpal> catseye, link to source code?
22:43:55 <catseye> all of my bots hae been more exercises in bot-writing, than actual bots
22:44:11 <catseye> Vorpal: sure, so you can exploit it right? One sec
22:44:34 <pikhq> The most common one, Quagga (a fork of GNU Zebra), has an interface that's essentially a clone of the CISCO router command line.
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22:44:51 <Vorpal> catseye, yes, @tell catseye '; DROP TABLE notes; --
22:45:25 <oerjan> `perl -e 'print (25*27*128/86400);'
22:45:32 <oerjan> `run perl -e 'print (25*27*128/86400);'
22:45:41 <pikhq> And it's totally awesome (but overkill) to use for a VPN.
22:45:43 <catseye> Vorpal: http://pastie.org/1224393
22:45:55 <oerjan> `run perl -e 'print (25*27*128/86400.0);'
22:46:04 <catseye> right, like i'd go near SQL in my own code
22:46:10 <oerjan> `run perl -e 'print (25*27*128.0/86400.0);'
22:46:15 <Vorpal> catseye, I thought it used a esolang last you poked at storkbot?
22:46:22 <Vorpal> some that you were developing as you went along
22:46:32 <Vorpal> catseye, as for the sql stuff, it was obviously a joke
22:46:35 <elliott> <pikhq> The most common one, Quagga (a fork of GNU Zebra), has an interface that's essentially a clone of the CISCO router command line.
22:46:40 <catseye> Vorpal: yeah, i basically shelved that project. it uses the same skeleton, though, so I could merge them
22:46:44 <oerjan> bah it _isn't_ truncated
22:46:58 <oerjan> `run perl -e 'print (25*27*128);'
22:47:20 <oerjan> quintopia: the clock wraps exactly at one day
22:47:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, what are you trying to calculate?
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22:48:57 <catseye> Vorpal: uorgyl's: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dre3b/i_made_a_chinese_remainder_theorem_clock_it_tells/
22:50:00 <elliott> now develop a way to turn it into a useful time quickly without hurting my brain!
22:50:00 <catseye> elliott: the masochist in me wants to build a bot in Go
22:50:07 <elliott> catseye: oh come on, Go is a good language
22:50:15 <elliott> the literature on it isn't so great and it's idiosyncratic
22:50:22 <elliott> but it's a pretty good language
22:50:38 <catseye> what makes a language bad, exactly?
22:52:38 <Vorpal> catseye, the masochist in you would prefer using that unbounded malbolge variant
22:52:52 <catseye> I should try to learn D to have a basis for comparison
22:53:09 <Vorpal> catseye, why D specifically?
22:53:17 <Vorpal> elliott, tell that to Deewiant
22:53:18 <pikhq> elliott: ... Saaay. You could make an infohash for any arbitrary file and see if there's anybody torrenting it. :P
22:53:35 * pikhq torrents the empty file
22:54:21 <elliott> pikhq: But it'd only work for a correctly-named file, dude.
22:54:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, how do you make an info hash manually like that?
22:54:28 <elliott> Unless you... omitted the name... somehow...
22:54:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Use a bencode library? Or just hack a torrent file.
22:54:43 <catseye> Vorpal: because I think both Go and D are trying to fill the same niche
22:54:58 <pikhq> elliott: Aaaargh. Right, it does depend on the filename.
22:55:06 <elliott> pikhq: NO omit the filename field
22:55:11 <pikhq> elliott: Pity, too.
22:55:13 <elliott> pikhq: alternatively can you omit a checksum?
22:55:17 <elliott> if so just look for, like, "porn.jpg"
23:00:18 <fizzie> catseye: http://zem.fi/~fis/crcbar.html (with <canvas>; I don't know enough CSS to do real additive blending with it).
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23:00:47 -!- augur has joined.
23:00:53 <catseye> fizzie: nyyyyaaarrrrhhh you rock.
23:01:35 <elliott> fizzie: Why... why are you so awesome?
23:01:45 <elliott> brb, I will totally blend that when I come back
23:01:52 <Vorpal> <fizzie> catseye: http://zem.fi/~fis/crcbar.html (with <canvas>; I don't know enough CSS to do real additive blending with it). <-- fun, what exactly is it?
23:02:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's that http://cis.gvsu.edu/~swettt/crc.htm except with the numbers denoted by three progress bars.
23:02:49 <pikhq> WHO IS STILL USING XVID TO ENCODE STUFF AND CAN I KILL THEM.
23:03:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, only if they are involved in file system design
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23:09:44 <catseye> Hm. Can I upgrade from Ibex to ... something newer, without risking my data on this partition?
23:11:10 <pikhq> catseye: You'll be jumping from LTS to LTS, but "maybe".
23:11:18 <pikhq> catseye: Also, you should use a seperate home partition.
23:12:24 <catseye> pikhq: I totally should, yes.
23:12:54 <catseye> I can maybe find that external HDD in the storage unit and back this thing up before doing anything radical with it.
23:15:07 <pikhq> catseye: Basically, what you're *going* to be doing here is upgrading to Lucid Lynx, and then to Maverick Meerkat.
23:15:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, is LTS→LTS harder than normal upgrade?
23:15:31 <fizzie> catseye: But of course for the real men, http://zem.fi/~fis/crcsq.html
23:15:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, no reason to not stay on lucid
23:15:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not particularly, especially as LTS→LTS upgrades are officially supported.
23:16:30 <pikhq> catseye: Why, pray tell, have you not upgraded in 2 years?
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23:17:42 <pikhq> catseye: Oh, wait. You'll want to upgrade to Jaunty Jackalope, then Karmic Koala, then Lucid Lynx, and then Maverick Meerkat...
23:17:56 <pikhq> Unless you want to keep on an LTS track.
23:18:30 <catseye> Oh man, staged upgrades. OK...
23:18:54 <pikhq> catseye: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JauntyUpgrades then https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KarmicUpgrades then https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LucidUpgrades then https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MaverickUpgrades
23:18:56 <catseye> Sort of an accident that this was an Ibex install, to begin with. But, it was better than a non-functional computer.
23:21:05 <catseye> thanks for the links, I will probably attempt it... sometime this weekend.
23:21:08 <Vorpal> <pikhq> catseye: Oh, wait. You'll want to upgrade to Jaunty Jackalope, then Karmic Koala, then Lucid Lynx, and then Maverick Meerkat... <-- note, jaunty almost reached end of life
23:21:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, no reason not to jump to lucid already if he is on the previous LTS
23:21:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: He's on 8.10, not 8.04 LTS.
23:21:58 <catseye> Or maybe I'll just install Kitten!
23:22:01 <Vorpal> catseye, januty reaches end of life at the end of this month
23:22:58 <pikhq> catseye: Interpid reached EOL in April.
23:23:08 <pikhq> catseye: Why the *hell* didn't you upgrade?
23:23:22 <Vorpal> yeah that will be tricky
23:23:33 <Vorpal> upgrading past EOL is tricky from what I remember
23:23:46 <pikhq> catseye: Oh, BTW, if your Intrepid install is out-of-date, you'll need to get that up to date.
23:23:53 <catseye> pikhq: Mostly, I had no internet connection.
23:24:30 <Vorpal> catseye, for the past few years?
23:24:51 <Vorpal> catseye, well you need to first update that using the archive of old releases
23:25:02 <Vorpal> catseye, but back up files first
23:25:07 <pikhq> INTREPID DOESN'T HAVE ITS PACKAGES IN THERE.
23:25:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, they are still on main mirrors?
23:25:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, err, intrepid is listed in http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/
23:25:59 <catseye> If I can't upgrade, I'll totally just install something from scratch, after files have been backed up.
23:26:09 <Vorpal> catseye, you can, with a lot of pain
23:26:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Ah, so it is.
23:26:55 <catseye> Hm, actually, installing something new will be difficult if my CDR is really not able to R anymore.
23:27:04 <pikhq> catseye: You'll need to swap your sources.list to use archive.ubuntu.com to get it fully up-to-date first.
23:27:05 <catseye> Although, flash drive, maybe.
23:27:30 <Vorpal> catseye, I installed lucid from a 1 GB usb stick recently
23:28:14 <Vorpal> catseye, used the "create startup disk" on another lucid computer
23:28:36 <catseye> Vorpal: OK -- unlikely I'll be able to do *that*.
23:29:38 <Vorpal> catseye, could do it from a non-lucid with unetbootin or such
23:29:50 <Vorpal> catseye, just slightly less convenient
23:29:57 <catseye> Where would unetbootin get me?
23:30:31 <catseye> Can't I just download something someone has made and dd it to my flash device? That would be so nice.
23:30:33 <Vorpal> catseye, iso + unetbootin + large enough usb memory stick = able to install without cd
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23:30:45 <Vorpal> catseye, well, iirc you need a bit more than just dd
23:30:52 * pikhq should get a DVD burner some time.
23:31:05 <Vorpal> I have a DVD-RAM drive
23:31:12 <fizzie> The Ubuntu CD images also have a usb-generator.exe Windows proggie to do the same thing the "create startup disk" does, if you happen to be on a Windows.
23:31:20 <Vorpal> but in theory my thinkpad can do DVD-RAM
23:32:38 <Vorpal> hm, why do star trek space ship bank? Has that ever been explained?
23:32:53 <fizzie> Sorry, usb-creator.exe. Last time I did Ubuntu-on-USB-stick I went with the unetbootin route too, though. (That also exists in at least some package managers, and a Windows port.)
23:34:07 <catseye> It looks like usb-creator can take an ISO for a different version of Ubuntu and still, uh, burn a USB for it...
23:34:34 <Vorpal> catseye, "burn a USB". XD
23:34:42 <Vorpal> you meant "burn an USB" obviously
23:35:19 <Vorpal> catseye, indeed. I wonder what it is doing there
23:35:36 <catseye> Vorpal, do you really pronounce it "uzzb"?
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23:36:06 <Vorpal> catseye, I pronounce it as separate letters
23:36:16 <Vorpal> catseye, in Swedish that is the normal way
23:36:32 <catseye> I do too. The first such letter is pronounced "Yoo" in my language. Thus, "an Yoo Ess Bee".
23:36:40 <Vorpal> oh wait, you call "U" "you", which does not start with a vowel sound
23:37:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you know, Space Friction.
23:37:48 <Vorpal> catseye, I shall start pronouncing it "uzzb" though
23:38:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that the canon explanation?
23:38:19 <oerjan> an F, an H, an L, an M, an N, an R, an S, a U, an X, a Y
23:38:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: No; I haven't heard of one. They do it (IIRC) in non-warpy scenarios, otherwise I'm sure someone would have cooked up a technobabble explanation.
23:39:02 <Vorpal> I don't think I can pronounce that as one word!
23:39:39 <oerjan> um it's a list of letters with a particular property (although the Y is ambiguous whether it should be there)
23:40:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, Y is "why" isn't it?
23:40:43 <oerjan> (the property _should_ be obvious from the conversation)
23:40:50 <fizzie> There's a Y/why mixup pun here somewhere.
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23:48:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, Swedish letter names make a lot more, leave a lot fewer questions unanswered
23:48:49 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:49:14 <Vorpal> hi Sgeo, zzo38, calamari
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23:49:21 <calamari> catseye, you enjoy roguelike games, correct? in fact I think you even made an esolang out of one?
23:49:39 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:50:39 <Sgeo> Non-fixed-width fonts on IRC make me dizzy
23:50:44 <zzo38> I even made a few small roguelike games
23:50:50 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then use a fixed-width font, please.
23:51:00 <catseye> calamari: uh well, yes I enjoy them, yes I wrote (a good chunk of a very detailed) one once, but no, I have not made an esolang out of any.
23:51:23 <zzo38> I use fixed-width because I prefer fixed-width font on computer screen, and also that PuTTY uses fixed-width fonts.
23:51:40 <Sgeo> YOU use WINDOWS?
23:52:07 <calamari> I am wondering if there has been a multiplayer one that also had initially random maps but that allowed perma nent modifications by players
23:52:13 * Sgeo watches his world turn upside-down
23:52:14 <catseye> I'm totally going to be using Windows this weekend if my backup/upgrade/whatever plans work out...
23:52:23 <calamari> argh I described that horribly
23:52:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: I use Windows, although I would rather not.
23:52:45 <zzo38> When I get a new computer I certainly will not use Windows, because I will write a Linux distribution instead.
23:52:58 <calamari> basically where the players could change the map and have it stay that way until someone else changed it
23:53:17 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Non-fixed-width fonts on IRC make me dizzy <-- I know what you mean
23:53:42 <calamari> yeah I have to use a fixed width in irc
23:53:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes zzo38 uses windows, and it was well known
23:54:28 <Vorpal> <zzo38> When I get a new computer I certainly will not use Windows, because I will write a Linux distribution instead. <-- zzo38 and elliott: maybe you should combine efforts! ;D
23:54:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: They would clash.
23:55:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, it would be interesting to watch. from a bomb shelter
23:55:55 <zzo38> I am not going to put bombs in my Linux distribution!!
23:56:37 <zzo38> elliott is the one that wanted to put bombs and kittens and puppies and flowers and so on in a operating system, but I don't need to put any of this stuff in.
23:57:34 <Vorpal> zzo38, uh, I was using that in a metaphorical sense
00:00:39 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> oerjan, Swedish letter names make a lot more, leave a lot fewer questions unanswered <-- hey, why didn't you laugh!?
00:03:47 <zzo38> What is the order of pop the PC from "RTS" command on 6502, for making a fake instruction like "jmp [sound_addr_low,x]" (which I think is not a valid instruction)?
00:09:49 <fizzie> I'm not sure what the question asks; if you just mean the order of bytes in memory, if the stack pointers points to N, then the low byte of PC in RTS is read from N+1 and the high byte from N+2, after which the stack pointer will point to N+2.
00:10:59 <fizzie> Though the PC that was popped is also incremented once, too.
00:13:36 <fizzie> (Because JSR, which is a three-byte instruction, pushes PC+2, the address of the last byte, to stack; so the increment corrects for that.)
00:14:02 * oerjan didn't connect it to Y = why
00:14:32 <oerjan> also i think you accidentally the sense
00:14:33 <zzo38> So the order of pushing must be HIGH(n-1) and then LOW(n-1) if you want to use RTS to jump there? Is that it?
00:14:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, um, Y do you think that?
00:15:36 <fizzie> zzo38: That should be it. (But I wouldn't trust me.)
00:15:37 <oerjan> make a lot more _what_?
00:15:59 <fizzie> oerjan: Make a lot more questions!
00:16:27 <fizzie> Based on the amount of ?s on the last few lines, they certainly seemed to make a lot of questions.
00:16:30 <zzo38> fizzie: The reason for these kind of question is to make improvment of PPMCK.
00:16:34 <oerjan> very talkative, swedish letters.
00:17:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah, just look at "i", "å" and "ö". They say as much as 13 English letters!
00:18:08 * oerjan senses something above his head
00:18:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, "in", "river" (not exactly, between "river" and "stream"), "island"
00:18:58 <Vorpal> $ echo -n 'inriverisland' | wc -c
00:19:25 <pikhq> I can do the same for Japanese!
00:19:51 <Vorpal> $ echo -n '川島に' | wc -c
00:19:54 <Vorpal> $ echo -n 'åäö' | wc -c
00:19:59 <Vorpal> (okay, so that is cheating)
00:20:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, no, because that would look better for Japanese ;P
00:20:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: What do you think that does?
00:20:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, -m? multibyte obviously
00:21:00 <fizzie> zzo38: From what I've seen -- but I haven't seen much -- people more often seem to be mutating a JMP instruction instead of jumping via the stack. (RTS takes twice as long as a JMP to execute, 6 vs. 3, while PHA is only one cycle faster than STA with an abs address. It does save in amount of code, though.)
00:21:06 <pikhq> It prints the characters.
00:21:24 <pikhq> The character count.
00:21:34 <pikhq> $ echo -n '川島に' | wc -m
00:21:40 <pikhq> $ echo -n 'åäö' | wc -m
00:21:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, .... you completely missed the joke
00:22:01 <zzo38> The thing I still haven't figure out yet on 6502 is the divide by three, though. And then I can make it have a conditional compile switch to tell it to compile a code to divide by 2 or by 3. (It needs to divide number as large as 0x07FF at most)
00:22:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, because I meant a joke that went over your head? Okay *shrug*
00:23:02 <oerjan> zzo38: you might use a shifting loop
00:23:03 <pikhq> No, because you think iåö is the same as åäö.
00:23:32 <pikhq> i is *quite* far from compose-o-a.
00:23:36 <zzo38> oerjan: How do I use a shifting loop?
00:23:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, yes but not so far if you have a ä key :P
00:24:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Everybody knows there's only one keyboard layout.
00:24:06 <catseye> `run echo -n '川島に' | wc -m
00:24:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes, only the Swedish one
00:24:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: Nay, the AMERICAN one!
00:24:31 <pikhq> EVERYTHING ELSE IS A LIE
00:24:58 <zzo38> Now I made a few new commands in PPMCK: * ? #MACRO #CUSTOM-TUNING Xc Xl Xm
00:26:34 <fizzie> FWIW, cc65's runtime division code is http://p.zem.fi/cc65-div -- it's very messy, but it's possible the udiv16by8a bit could be adapted to do a fixed divide-by-three. Don't have time to try to understand that right now, though.
00:26:46 <oerjan> zzo38: something equivalent to c = 3*32768; b=0; while (a) {if (a >= c) { a-=c; b++; } a <<= 1; b <<= 1; }
00:27:23 <oerjan> not while (a), it needs to use an accurate count
00:28:20 <oerjan> b is to collect the result
00:28:46 <oerjan> and yes essentially long division
00:29:45 <catseye> HackEgo: does this mean your locale is C or something?
00:30:32 <oerjan> the loop should repeat 15 times i think for a 16-bit number (0x07ff would be less i guess, if you adjust c to fit)
00:30:44 <pikhq> catseye: Well, the C locale only does ASCII, sooo... I guess so.
00:31:33 <HackEgo> LANG= \ LC_CTYPE="POSIX" \ LC_NUMERIC="POSIX" \ LC_TIME="POSIX" \ LC_COLLATE="POSIX" \ LC_MONETARY="POSIX" \ LC_MESSAGES="POSIX" \ LC_PAPER="POSIX" \ LC_NAME="POSIX" \ LC_ADDRESS="POSIX" \ LC_TELEPHONE="POSIX" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="POSIX" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="POSIX" \ LC_ALL=
00:31:42 <pikhq> That's C locale, alright.
00:33:44 <oerjan> zzo38: oh and dividing by 2 is of course just a single shift
00:33:59 <oerjan> well i guess you know that
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00:37:02 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, dividing by 2 is just a single shift, but I need also divide by 3 as well
00:38:52 <catseye> zzo38: OOC, what are you writing?
00:39:07 <zzo38> catseye: I am writing changes to PPMCK
00:39:34 <oerjan> hey that was _not_ out of character. pay attention!
00:39:40 <zzo38> In this case, it is divide a sixteen bit number by 2, so it does LSR and ROR
00:39:52 <catseye> "PPMCK is a MML script-based NES/Famicom music composition utility." ?
00:40:09 <zzo38> catseye: Yes. That is what PPMCK is.
00:40:28 <zzo38> It is a program to write music compiled into NSF
00:42:08 <catseye> oerjan: HackEgo's the one out of character here. C locale, indeed!
00:44:03 <oerjan> that's not out of character, it still has 256 of them
00:44:07 <zzo38> PPMCK is not the only program for making music compiled into NSF, but it is one of the best one, in my opinion.
00:56:53 <zzo38> I saw the cc65-div code, how do I need use that for divide sixteen bit number by constant.
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01:22:33 <calamari> okay I take it nobody has seen such a roguelike :)
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01:24:49 <Gregor> C locale: The roguelike!
01:24:57 <Sgeo> Also, what is "such a roguelike"
01:25:22 <oerjan> you are such, like a rogue
01:26:14 <calamari> Sgeo, you were actually here when I described it :)
01:26:51 <calamari> a multiplayer roguelike that remembers map changes
01:27:29 <Sgeo> here != paying attention
01:27:46 <Sgeo> I don't think I've ever seen a multiplayer roguelike before
01:27:56 <calamari> yeah you were dizzy at the time :)
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02:12:48 <elliott> fizzie: you can probably blend the colours by *3 the colours and opacity:.33333
02:13:32 <elliott> does anyone want to know thw owrst thing?
02:17:43 <zzo38> Worst thing of what?
02:18:02 <pikhq> Iie îe いいえ イイエ 五五愛
02:18:10 <oerjan> LALALA I CANNOT HEAR YOU
02:18:32 <elliott> do you want to know the worst thing
02:18:36 <elliott> you must it has ... destroyed me
02:18:46 <Sgeo> Opposition to modern medicine?
02:19:02 <zzo38> elliott: Do you know what is the worst thing in the world?
02:19:03 * oerjan thinks pikhq said "no"
02:19:14 <zzo38> oerjan: I think you are correct
02:19:14 <oerjan> in a very impolite way
02:19:20 <pikhq> oerjan: 5 times, each in a different writing system for Japanese!
02:19:23 <Sgeo> Ok, what's the worst thing in the world?
02:19:38 <Sgeo> *second worst. You don't seem to be dead.
02:19:40 <pikhq> mannyokàna (man'yogana) is the craziest thing ever.
02:20:01 <zzo38> pikhq: I believe you.
02:20:09 <Sgeo> elliott, are you ever going to explain?
02:20:10 <elliott> Sgeo: this is worse then death.
02:20:43 <Sgeo> Incredible pain that will never go away for the rest of your life?
02:21:24 <elliott> Sgeo: You're on Ubuntu right?
02:21:34 <Sgeo> Windows 7 right now
02:21:44 <zzo38> Is it... dead people that are very large and take up too much space?
02:21:44 <elliott> Sgeo: then you cannot know the pain
02:21:53 <elliott> zzo38: no. i don't think that's a huge problem...
02:22:11 <catseye> http://www.fixya.com/support/t1222056-simpletech_320gb_external_hard_drive <-- DECIDE
02:22:12 <Sgeo> A dead person the size of the moon might be a huge problem.
02:22:26 <Sgeo> Dead person size of the sun would be worse.
02:22:27 <oerjan> Sgeo: OR PRECIOUS REAL ESTATE
02:22:28 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes that is what I meant.
02:23:09 * Sgeo carves up oerjan to use as a house
02:23:21 <Sgeo> elliott, describe it?
02:23:30 <oerjan> hey i'm not the size of the moon. or even a house. yet, anyhow.
02:23:48 <catseye> it's really idiotic that they don't label it on the back of the case
02:23:59 <Sgeo> elliott, well, surely there are things I'd need to do
02:24:07 <elliott> catseye: you're on ubuntu right
02:24:36 <elliott> catseye: oh btw there is an easy way to upgrade from ippepid bibex to current ubuntu totally safely but
02:24:56 <oerjan> wouldn't a dead person the size of the sun collapse into a black hole?
02:25:20 <oerjan> well i guess there is still fusible material.
02:25:25 <Sgeo> Biblical LaTeX1
02:25:54 <Sgeo> Pray to your TeXan God1
02:26:06 <zzo38> What is Biblical LaTeX1?
02:26:09 <Sgeo> Dear keyboard: Please allow me to type !
02:27:06 <Sgeo> The ONLY Christian typesetting environment
02:27:34 <Sgeo> Users of anything else go straight to hell
02:27:48 <catseye> I think the power supply to my ADSL modem will power the external HDD. Of course, that means I'll offlinify while backing up.
02:28:13 <elliott> i sure hope i'll be able to stop watching the guild so i can go to bed
02:29:39 <Sgeo> It's just one more thing I can spoil you on >:D
02:30:44 <elliott> not a huge plotline really
02:33:21 <zzo38> LaTeX (Biblical or not) is bloated and difficult to understand, but even Plain TeX has more things than needed.
02:35:35 <zzo38> TeX is still the best typesetting system, though.
02:37:51 <Sgeo> Maybe I should clarify that "Biblical LaTeX" was a joke..
02:39:10 <elliott> zzo38: what about Hermeneutic LaTeX?
02:39:43 <zzo38> But I still need to improve TeX, and I think it can be done with only adding a few commands: \progdef \maketoken \ifexecute \expandto \convlist \convbox \convtoks \dvibinary \pagex \pagey Hopefully this should be enough.
02:39:59 <zzo38> What are those things?
02:40:11 <elliott> zzo38: they are the best typesetting systems ever
02:41:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: There is actually justification for a sort of "Biblical" macro set for LaTeX.
02:41:16 <catseye> OK... need... get... uzzb cable...
02:41:39 <zzo38> pikhq: And what is justification? What macros are needed?
02:42:02 <elliott> pikhq: LATEX IS UNJUSTIFIABLE IT IS BAD
02:42:44 <Sgeo> I hereby wipe my hands clean of any blood shed due to Biblical LaTeX
02:42:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: Bibles and other such critical works have particular, unique typesetting demands. Most *obviously* the need to handle chapter/verse notations in a certain way, cross-references, and footnotes.
02:42:54 <elliott> zzo38: I need to ask you a question.
02:43:05 <elliott> zzo38: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
02:43:11 <pikhq> Though this isn't *unique* to the Christian Bible, it's the most common such work.
02:43:32 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know.
02:43:40 <elliott> zzo38: But what are your thoughts on the matter?
02:44:00 <elliott> Have *you* ever really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
02:44:07 * oerjan imagines zzo38 understanding the question perfectly
02:44:36 <elliott> well zzo38 does have a certain clarity of notions about him
02:45:05 <zzo38> elliott: Do you mean what I look more like or do you mean the book?
02:45:22 <elliott> zzo38: I mean whether you have really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like.
02:45:56 <zzo38> elliott: I sometimes change my decision.
02:47:11 <elliott> zzo38: Personally, I have occasionally reall been far even as decided to use even go want to do that, but I'm never sure whether to go throughg with it and look more like as my desires tell me to, you know?
02:47:52 <Sgeo> Fucken has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like how do they work?
02:48:05 <elliott> Sgeo: Ah, Christopher Fucken, inventor of Mornington Crescent?
02:48:14 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, I know. I sometimes change my opinion in future, so I don't want to change something permanently until I am more sure, I think.
02:48:24 <elliott> After whom the Fucken A manoeuvre is named.
02:49:18 <zzo38> elliott: Can you play Mornington Crescent? If you make an illegal move do you have to discard 2 cards?
02:49:50 <elliott> zzo38: 3, actually; 3 1/2 in the Amended Uncrossreferenced Edition 1667 of the King's Guard.
02:49:55 <elliott> That one's a bit screwy though.
02:49:59 <zzo38> I don't like the rule in Mornington Crescent that causes the rules to change if you are playing the game on Sunday.
02:50:14 <elliott> zzo38: That's only when playing with Whorffhotridge extensions, and nobody does that.
02:50:18 <zzo38> Or maybe that is not the standard edition, I don't know.
02:50:21 <elliott> Well, Martkin Plink does, but he can do whatever he wants.
02:50:30 <zzo38> I don't know a lot of the rules.
02:50:45 <Sgeo> Isn't there a rule allowing different players to use different rules?
02:50:55 <elliott> Sgeo: only when you're not a turnip
02:51:30 <elliott> I quote 5.6.7/987§33.2 in the Dewy Duodecimal numbering:
02:52:42 <elliott> "Iff that Sgeo is't rightly a turnippe, play shall proceed whereby all players share one sette of rules. Contrariwise, players shall maintain their owne rulesett as desirede."
02:53:12 <elliott> or in the 1998 Modern Amended & Revised Almanac Publication:
02:53:14 <zzo38> Didn't you just make up that rule now?
02:53:38 <elliott> "If Sgeo is a turnip, all players shall play by the same set of rules. However, if he is not, all players can maintain their own ruleset as they see fit."
02:53:53 <elliott> zzo38: Nope; you can check your physical copy if you want. It's in volume 55.29 of King Jam's.
02:54:05 <elliott> And you know that the Modern Amended publication is in a single volume.
02:54:45 <oerjan> Sgeo has of course chosen his nick after the famous MC player.
02:54:53 <Sgeo> elliott, you helped with some of the revisions, iirc?
02:55:00 <elliott> oerjan: you didn't know? he *is* that Sgeo!
02:55:04 <elliott> very different in-game persona, i agree
02:55:16 <elliott> oerjan: yeah we are in esteemed company
02:55:32 <elliott> Sgeo: well. an amendment here or there in the 2007 edition.
02:55:48 <elliott> and i think one slight reword
02:55:59 <elliott> youngest person to have a contribution accepted to a respected publication of the MC ruleset, i believe
02:58:00 <elliott> Sgeo: how did you use the Tradranikas Gambit in your last game against Yurtsin Robonov?
02:58:04 <elliott> has anyone ever used it that late in the game?
02:58:15 <elliott> you basically had to reset half the game to initial condition...
02:58:17 <zzo38> I believe you just made up most of these rules, but then, I think many people make up their own rules for Mornington Crescent because they don't know how to play, so that is why they make up rules. Of course there are standards, but every time I have seen someone play they always add their own rules.
02:58:21 <elliott> but i guess it's the other half that matters, right?
02:58:37 <elliott> zzo38: as i said, check your physical copy if you want a verification
02:59:07 <zzo38> I don't actually have a physical copy. I don't live in England.
03:00:09 <catseye> Have... uzzb... cable. Fhew.
03:00:30 <elliott> zzo38: you could mail one from Taupe House
03:00:41 <elliott> their website is down right now though and i don't have the address to hand
03:01:11 <Sgeo> Well, I think I was very fortunate to recall the Milardton's Maneuver. I almost did the Irevocrev gamble, whichh would have screwed me over
03:01:12 <elliott> that'd be the two-volume restructuring of the Modern Amended publication (colloquially the "Taupe Amended" edition); one of my favourites
03:01:18 <elliott> the Modern Amended format is a little too cramped I think
03:01:23 <zzo38> I would need also to get a map of Mornington Crescent, I suppose. And if they changed things in that area over time, you would need to decide and agree on whether to use the old map or new map.
03:01:25 <elliott> and that book, wow, not good for your lap!
03:01:38 <elliott> Sgeo: whichhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
03:02:05 <catseye> bibleref.sty: a LaTeXe package for typesetting bible references
03:03:45 <elliott> oerjan: didn't you do some work on mathematical models of subsets of Mornington Crescent?
03:03:53 <elliott> any progress to a grand unified theory? haha, i wish :)
03:04:06 <elliott> they always seem to get so far and then there's that little mechanic that brings the whole thing crashing down
03:04:50 <catseye> and when he shows up he always asks me for a cigarette even though he KNOWS i don't smoke
03:07:19 <oerjan> actually i've never even played the game.
03:07:42 <catseye> I once got within a block of Mornington Crescent only to discover it was actually another player's Mornington Crescent Decoy (although he had no knowledge of this.)
03:07:43 <zzo38> elliott: I doubt that, everyone plays by different rules anyways so how do you know for sure? However, I have an idea: Real maps sometimes have trap streets. So, perhaps you can make a specific set of trap streets for the game, which are designed to make the game mathematically correct.
03:07:46 <oerjan> just read a bit about it.
03:08:10 <elliott> oerjan: as we all know that doesn't stop mathematicians from modelling things :)
03:08:45 <Sgeo> zzo38, I've been turniped once
03:08:48 <elliott> oerjan: but... really? weren't you listed as one of the (admittedly very numerous!) coauthors on Tableau et al.'s famous 1997 paper?
03:10:58 <catseye> Then he used his "Grateful Dead" token (+2) to escape the sewers of Paris, and made a beeline for Erste Lage Spätlese. I didn't have enough bonus crumbs at the time to prevent such a move...
03:12:51 <zzo38> catseye: Were you playing the variant using the map of the entire world (and not only England)? (I don't remember what that variant was called, but I have read of its existence)
03:12:54 <elliott> catseye: No, that's just when the Nazis invaded your house.
03:12:58 <elliott> Just your house. Inexplicably.
03:13:07 <oerjan> i think it is possible that i'd _heard_ of the game by 1997. so, no.
03:13:25 <elliott> oerjan: oh it was Orjan Johansen
03:13:25 <oerjan> i'm not english either, after all.
03:13:29 <elliott> oerjan: easy mistake to make
03:14:04 <catseye> elliott: Were you playing, in that round? You might have been, there were a lot of people involved.
03:14:45 <catseye> zzo38: Well, he wasn't a particularly good player. Perhaps he got lost.
03:14:53 <elliott> catseye: i have played a horribly low number of games for the amount of rubbish i know
03:15:05 <elliott> but, i think i might have been in the really big one in...
03:15:30 <elliott> catseye: oh that was the one with the subplot theme of "a great escape" right?
03:15:36 <elliott> that would explain <catseye> Then he used his "Grateful Dead" token (+2) to escape the sewers of Paris, and made a beeline for Erste Lage Spätlese. I didn't have enough bonus crumbs at the time to prevent such a move...
03:15:48 <elliott> i hate it when the subplots get too involved though. it's a gimmick.
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03:18:30 <catseye> Well, now that oerjan's gone, I can reveal to you the truth. This wasn't a game of Mornington Crescent, at all. This was a horrible experiment gone wrong, on a mailing list on the early internet...
03:18:56 <catseye> The idea was that we could create a game exactly like Mornington Crescent using only our minds.
03:20:12 <zzo38> catseye: Yes, I heard of that variant, I think it was "Blind Mornington Crescent" and you have to just imagine the map, you do not have a physical map..... it is difficult if you cannot agree on the rules
03:20:54 <zzo38> Or do you mean some other variant?
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03:22:40 <catseye> zzo38: I will have to tell you some other time. Right now I must use the power supply of my ADSL modem to power my external HDD to back up this partition to have some confidence I won't lose the data when I recover Windows (Vista!) on the *other* partition so I can see if I can burn CD's from Windows maybe (I won't) but it will put me in a position to install a better OS where Ibex used to be.
03:23:00 <catseye> See you on the flipside, knock on wood.
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03:27:40 <zzo38> Another change I made in PPMCK is to make the header strings say "<?>" if it is not set, in accordance with the standard. (The old version put the field names there instead.)
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03:28:26 <elliott> zzo38: I suggest you try the Stork Press' -- hey, bet cpressey's bot is named after them -- annual newbie games. There's information in the Taupe Amended edition of the rules (in the first appendix). Very good; I started off there.
03:28:43 <elliott> The people there are great, they'll help you get started with tactics etc. in no time. Truly the discerning newbie's choice.
03:28:54 <elliott> I'm going now; goodnight. Bye.
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03:31:01 <zzo38> What OS are you trying to install, now?
03:31:07 <catseye> The plug fits, and powers it on, but the unit does nothing. Possibly toast.
03:31:29 <catseye> zzo38: I want to start with recovering the Windows partition on this laptop.
03:31:47 <catseye> I have no guarantees this won't wipe out the Ubuntu partition...
03:31:55 <catseye> So I'm looking to back up first.
03:32:11 <zzo38> So you want to have dual boot?
03:33:52 <zzo38> I wonder if you know who Damian Yerrick is
03:34:31 <catseye> zzo38: I have a dual boot, just, one of the OSes involved won't boot :)
03:34:51 <catseye> I have not heard that name, so far as I can recall
03:35:13 <zzo38> Oops! That is a mistake. Another choice is to replace the hard drive with a new one, and use the old one as the backup
03:36:13 <zzo38> There are many Linux distributions, Ubuntu is not the only one, so, you can pick whichever one you want, or even write your own
03:37:53 <catseye> The main obstacle, at present, is that the DVD-R drive will not R. If that worked, I would just burn my data to some blank DVDs and go ahead and experiment.
03:38:53 <catseye> If it wasn't a laptop, I would consider swapping the hard drive. But, it's a laptop.
03:39:09 <catseye> Maybe I should just get a new damned computer.
03:39:47 <pikhq> Laptop hard drives can be swapped too, y'know.
03:41:29 <catseye> Yeah, but then I'd have to get another laptop harddrive to swap it with. And I don't like laptops, and this laptop has problems, as well.
03:41:45 <catseye> I should just try to build another desktop system, probably.
03:43:05 <zzo38> OK, try to build another desktop system.
03:45:45 <zzo38> I also have a question about PXELINUX, in case you know about it. I have written a module for it and it will resolve hostnames but the MAC address doesn't work, do you know what is wrong? (This is for a program I am writing at Free Geek)
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03:50:06 <catseye> I appear to have about 9 gigabytes available on my web host. I could upload all the files I care about...
03:52:25 <catseye> zzo38: PXE is cool. But I have no idea.
03:52:51 <catseye> I appear to be missing about half of one of my molars. Fantastic. How'd that happen?
04:01:20 <pikhq> http://www3.state.id.us/oasis/2005/HCR029.html Okay, some days I absolutely love ridiculous acts of legislature.
04:03:14 <catseye> my tax... dollars... at...
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04:08:58 <catseye> zzo38: when using Unix, do you pass the -h flag to du and df, or do you find it easier to read if you don't?
04:09:41 <zzo38> catseye: I have never used those commands.
04:11:04 <catseye> For ls it's a little less useful for me to use -h.
04:11:10 <catseye> Unless the files are gigantic.
04:11:12 <zzo38> I have used ls. I have never used the -h flag of ls.
04:16:59 <pikhq> catseye: I use -h habitually.
04:17:04 -!- catseye has changed nick to DrNinja.
04:17:54 <pikhq> zzo38: You've never used du or dh?
04:18:21 <zzo38> Yes, I have not used those commands.
04:18:46 <DrNinja> I *just* now used dh, accidentally.
04:19:01 <DrNinja> Apparently, dh is part of debhelper.
04:20:31 <pikhq> zzo38: You must dislike knowing anything about disk usage.
04:20:45 <Sgeo> This is a test, this is only a test.
04:21:15 <Sgeo> Uhhh.... urgent question
04:21:22 <Sgeo> How do I stop streaming in VLC?
04:22:09 <DrNinja> as much as I like this nick, it is silly.
04:22:11 -!- DrNinja has changed nick to catseye.
04:22:48 <pikhq> It was insufficiently Irish.
04:24:18 <catseye> And "catseye" is sufficiently so?
04:24:46 <pikhq> Now, you want nekonome. That's "Irish", right?
04:24:50 <zzo38> pikhq: No, I just never needed to know about disk usage when using Unix.
04:25:25 <catseye> pikhq: The "neko" part suggests it is highly "Irish". I don't know about the rest.
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04:33:21 <catseye> I should totally be running LoseThos.
04:33:40 <catseye> I... I would score bravery points, but I think that's all.
04:33:47 <catseye> Oh! I would get to hear GOD MUSIC
04:34:02 <catseye> OK, well, one thing at a time.
04:35:44 <Sgeo> Surely the music could be converted to a format playable on a sane OS?
04:36:41 <catseye> Surely it could. Surely the music could be generated on a sane OS to start with.
04:37:28 <catseye> But, what's the word -- circumstantially, it's not.
04:37:45 <pikhq> Dear Youtube player: you have a buffer of 1/3rd of the video. YOU DON'T NEED TO STOP THE VIDEO AND BUFFER SOME MORE.
04:38:19 <catseye> Oh dear yes. Youtube got all wacky "you are sophisticated stupid" once Google got its mitts on it.
04:39:44 <catseye> Arrgh 3.5 hours to upload 0.5 G of stuff to my webspace.
04:41:15 <Sgeo> LoseThos.com was hosted on Yahoo?
04:41:22 <Sgeo> How does that even make sense?
04:41:40 <Sgeo> http://www.losethos.com/blog.html
04:42:59 <catseye> Yahoo offers web hosting of some sort
04:43:08 <catseye> http://www.amazon.com/Cognitive-Connection-Thought-Language-Machine/dp/0131396196
04:43:13 <catseye> You need to read this book.
04:43:23 <catseye> It contains like 50,000 errors.
04:43:32 <catseye> But it is otherwise an awesome book.
04:44:11 <Sgeo> I think I like the idea of a simple OS to toy around on
04:44:16 <catseye> I have thought of putting together an "esoteric reading list" sometime, and this would be on it.
04:44:18 <pikhq> The OS that concludes that the 80s were awesome.
04:44:42 <pikhq> Especially the mono-lingual support.
04:44:50 <Sgeo> They were awesome for getting kids to learn how to program
04:45:00 <pikhq> (thank god it's not propogating STILL MORE incompatible encodings)
04:45:17 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/user/losethos
04:46:12 <catseye> love how the window titles CONSTANTLY SCROLL
04:47:12 <pikhq> The "lyrics". The hell?
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04:47:44 <Sgeo> There's only one way to find out if those are random or not, pikhq.
04:47:47 <Sgeo> Better take the plunge.
04:48:03 <pikhq> Fuck no. The crazy might be contagious.
04:48:03 <Sgeo> Randomly ordered
04:48:28 <catseye> http://www.amazon.com/Patterns-Software-Tales-Community/dp/0195121236/ <-- this would be awesome book #2 on my reading list.
04:48:42 <Sgeo> fwiw, I finally have a compuuter capable of running LoseThos
04:49:20 <catseye> I'm not sure what else would go on it, though. So much is not really weird enough.
04:49:42 <catseye> "Escher, Goedel, Bach" goes on my "read it, ok, but then please burn it" list.
04:50:06 <Sgeo> "LoseThos will never have networking, other
04:50:07 <Sgeo> graphics modes, or USB support, unless USB is required for keyboards and mice.
04:50:07 <Sgeo> What else is there? I'll have to find something. I might do applications, I
04:50:08 <catseye> Goedel, Escher, Bach, is probably the real order.
04:50:29 <catseye> I guess he might do applications.
04:50:31 <Sgeo> I guess I can't run it, then, unless I do some weird dual-boot thingy
04:51:02 <Sgeo> "LoseThos is not for pathetic hardware -- it's 64-bit and multicored. That's a
04:51:03 <Sgeo> common misconception."
04:51:27 <Sgeo> non-multicolored hardware EXISTS?
04:51:52 <Sgeo> (you know what i mean when I asked that)
04:54:02 <Sgeo> I actually thought it was a typo
04:54:05 <catseye> Need to ask elliott what he thinks of Roger Penrose, wen I see him next.
04:54:07 * Sgeo facepalms at self
04:54:24 <Sgeo> @note elliott catseye wants to know what you think of Roger Penrose
04:54:36 <Sgeo> !note elliott catseye wants to know what you think of Roger Penrose
04:54:45 <catseye> (/me thinks Roger Penrose is a GEN-YOO-INE CRAZY PERSON btw)
04:54:56 <catseye> Sgeo: it's @tell and the bot's not here
04:55:08 <catseye> I need to rewrite it in Go
04:55:18 <catseye> For my own incomprehensible reasons
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04:55:50 <Sgeo> Rewrite it in Factor!
04:56:42 <catseye> I want to write it in something really wrong.
04:57:12 <Sgeo> I don't know whether to say "There's nothing wrong with Factor" or not
04:57:23 <catseye> I keep gravitating towards R, because it is popular (amongst statisticians,) but wrong oh so wrong for just about everything else.
04:57:48 <catseye> I don't even know if you could do a bot, in it. Probably...
04:59:30 <catseye> I'm still worried about where the missing half of my molar went, though. I mean, damn! That's a tooth! There shouldn't be a HOLE there.
04:59:41 <catseye> Well, dentist appt on the 20th...
05:01:42 <catseye> There is this book of papers, in celebration of some anniversary of the publication of Turing's paper about Turing machines, I think. It has some interesting papers in it. It would be #3 on my reading list. But I can't find it.
05:02:02 <catseye> One of the papers is by Penrose, and it's an early version of his "Shadows of the Mind" bullshit.
05:02:16 <catseye> And his arguments are obviously fallacious.
05:02:44 <catseye> "You can't duplicate someone's consciousness, because gee, I can't imagine that!" sort of stuff.
05:03:16 <catseye> The other papers are OK. Not all great, but interesting.
05:05:51 <catseye> http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Turing-Machine-Half-Century-Computerkultur/dp/3211826378
05:06:54 <catseye> wish i had some nachos about now
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05:09:40 <catseye> What is the difference between "Alt" and "Alt Gr"?
05:10:51 <Gregor> catseye: Alt Gr chooses an alternate symbol set. It's like a different dimension of shift.
05:11:21 <catseye> Gregor: except I've never seen it ever never do any such thing.
05:11:47 <Gregor> catseye: You're an American, aren't you?
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05:11:56 <Gregor> catseye: How did you even FIND a keyboard with Alt Gr?
05:12:04 <catseye> Gregor: CANADIAN, thankyouverymuch.
05:12:10 <catseye> Gregor: It's on this laptop!
05:12:17 <Gregor> Canada: Still America's hat.
05:12:28 <catseye> Along with dedicated $ and Euro keys, it seems.
05:12:45 <catseye> Which do not do anything under Ubuntu, it seems.
05:12:58 <catseye> It's an Acer Aspire 3680-2354
05:12:59 <Gregor> catseye: Well, if it doesn't activate an alternate character set, then that's because you have it configured to use a non-international keyboard layout :P
05:16:40 <catseye> it should fuckin have a scrollbar!!! that's obvious. yay you have no idea what i'm talking about
05:17:40 <catseye> i mean when you have a window full of icons that is half off the screen
05:22:13 <catseye> It's great how there's so much code out there that is just completely useless and forgettable.
05:22:45 <catseye> The day will come, the cherry blossoms will fall, and no one will care about your code.
05:23:26 <pikhq> "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despire".
05:23:34 <pikhq> s/despire/despair/
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05:29:13 <catseye> There's so much CODE out there! Did Turing ever have an inlkling (1938!) that it would be like this? Somewhere, right now, a C program is falling through a switch case that the author never intended it to.
05:30:03 <catseye> It is a bug. But the consequences aren't costing the owner of the code *very much* money. So it's not being fixed.
05:30:24 <catseye> It's in the backlog (maybe -- if it's been noticed.) It might get into the sprint someday.
05:36:53 <catseye> OK -- this would be #4 (is it?) on my "esoteric reading list":
05:36:55 <catseye> http://www.rdwarf.com/users/kioh/
05:39:06 <catseye> for instance http://www.rdwarf.com/users/kioh/haxorec54KB.jpg
05:42:41 <catseye> will remember us, among these cherry blossoms,
05:42:48 <catseye> as the composers of this time.
05:43:16 <catseye> maybe #5 should be Hesse's "Glass Bead Game"
05:43:44 <catseye> the merge of mathematics and music as art as we know it is becomes obsolete.
05:44:23 <catseye> THEN AGAIN, I AM QUITE DURNK, SO OK?
05:44:34 <Gregor> pikhq: http://poll.fm/2c4e9 (So anonymous :P )
05:48:23 <pikhq> ... Wait, I think I meant 7. Dammit.
05:48:53 <pikhq> You need a higher sample group.
05:49:13 <Gregor> SHOCKINGLY, random computer scientist in Indi-aaaa-na doesn't have many fans :P
05:50:20 <pikhq> You should position yourself as an up-and-coming composer instead.
05:51:57 <Sgeo> Gregor, Opus 12
05:51:58 <Gregor> My grandmother has become obsessive and weird about op. 13 mov. 1. She wants me to sell it. Or something. Idonno. Apparently all I have to do is write something in a major key to placate her.
05:53:02 <Sgeo> That's my write-in vote
05:53:25 <Sgeo> ...you can't see the write-ins, can you?
05:53:52 <Gregor> I only put "other" there so people write in ZEE[1-5] or GM1 or some weird stuff I've forgotten about.
05:54:04 <pikhq> I should have asked for a rerecording of Op. 1.
05:54:33 <Gregor> pikhq: I actually probably could find op. 1 ...
05:54:39 <catseye> Damn, I should have said Zee5. Or whatever oneo f those it is that I like.
05:54:45 <Gregor> I should ask my mom if she has a VHS of it lying around somewhere.
05:54:55 <Gregor> Who the hell wrote "woodwind quintet ftw" X_D
05:55:03 <pikhq> Gregor: You said that it was lost forever, though.
05:55:07 <pikhq> Gregor: Clearly, you lie.
05:55:18 <Sgeo> I'm certain Miss Zarves would love to hear Opus 12
05:55:19 <Gregor> pikhq: It also probably is lost forever.
05:55:19 <catseye> Gregor: HAHAH I haven't even HEARD your window stuff.
05:55:23 <pikhq> Gregor: And should make a recording of Op. 1 through 4, just so we can mock your suck.
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05:56:05 <pikhq> Gregor: Hmm. Kill Yourself?
05:56:10 <catseye> POLLS IN THE INTERNET = ATTRACT IGNORAT OPIONS
05:56:11 <pikhq> ... Naah, that just needs someone to cover it.
05:56:27 <Gregor> pikhq: Yeah, needs someone with a voice that is not my voice.
05:56:43 <Sgeo> We. Want. Opus. Twelve.
05:56:48 <Sgeo> We. Want. Opus. Twelve.
05:56:52 <Gregor> Sgeo: If by "we" ... you mean "you"
05:57:09 <catseye> Dude, Gregor's low-opus-numbers can't be 10x worse than my low-opus-numbers.
05:57:16 <pikhq> Same for DCVOGLLMRCMCDP. :P (nice acronym, BTW)
05:57:28 <pikhq> catseye: I guarantee his are significantly better than mine.
05:57:31 <pikhq> As I don't have any.
05:57:34 <catseye> All highly repetitive and awful SID tunes on the commodore 64.
05:57:42 <pikhq> The power of being a performer but not a composer. :P
05:58:06 <catseye> With cheesy titles, which Gregor staunchy avoids with... antiseptic opus numbers.
05:58:19 <pikhq> Op. 13 has titles in it!
05:58:28 <Gregor> catseye: I avoid titles not because I don't like good titles, but because I'm title-incompetent.
05:58:29 <pikhq> Nocturne in Three and Finale in Three.
05:58:48 <pikhq> Gregor: Well demonstrated.
05:58:49 <catseye> Those come close to being titles, I suppose.
05:59:07 <pikhq> I've definitely got them on title tag.
05:59:09 <Gregor> My friend Eric keeps asking me for UNIX commands to turn into titles.
05:59:25 <catseye> Still, it's not like "Death and the Maiden" and so.
05:59:46 <pikhq> Gregor: If you can make a piece for which fdisk would be an appropriate title, you might win at music.
06:00:20 <Sgeo> http://www.aaronshep.com/rt/RTE32.html
06:00:27 <catseye> That is... so... not right.
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06:00:30 <Sgeo> How isn't this a major, major copyright violation/
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06:00:45 <catseye> There is a definite split here.
06:01:09 <catseye> Either "fdisk" is the worst ever title for a piece of music, because you are being pretentiously geeky, or
06:01:27 <catseye> "fdisk" is a beautiful title, because you have captured it exactly.
06:02:35 <pikhq> catseye: Obviously, I want him to capture it exactly.
06:03:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: "Story copyright © 1985 Louis Sachar. Script copyright © 1993, 2003, 2005 Aaron Shepard. Produced by permission of Avon Books, a division of the Hearst Corporation. Scripts in this series are free and may be copied, shared, and performed for any noncommercial purpose, except they may not be posted online without permission."
06:03:22 <pikhq> And it's on Aaron Shepard's website.
06:03:42 <pikhq> It is not a copyright violation because the copyright holders approve.
06:03:52 <pikhq> Tautological but true.
06:04:11 <Gregor> It's a tautology ... AND YET IT'S TRUE!
06:04:13 <catseye> Schubert is OK but Beethoven is way better.
06:04:41 <Sgeo> I don't think I've read the first book
06:04:58 <Sgeo> I've read Wayside School Gets a Little Stranger, and a bit of the math one
06:05:22 <Sgeo> (I skipped over the chapter that was talking about feminine underwear. I was a kid, and it made me uncomfortable)
06:05:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: The book touch you in naughty places?
06:05:55 <Gregor> `addquote <catseye> eine kleine pimpmusik
06:06:22 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uOxOgm5jQ4
06:07:02 <Sgeo> ...there had to have been more stories than were on this page
06:07:11 <catseye> Gregor: wakka wakka wakka chow-wow
06:07:16 <HackEgo> 244|<catseye> eine kleine pimpmusik
06:07:17 <Sgeo> I guess that's why this script is online
06:08:14 <Sgeo> ...there were THREE books?
06:08:23 <Sgeo> (not counting the math one)
06:09:04 <catseye> The prof teaching the sight-singing course always wore long-sleeved sweaters... we conjecture that this was to conceal the needle tracks
06:10:55 <catseye> hole where outside part of molar supposed to be!
06:12:15 <Sgeo> R.I.P. catseye's tooth
06:12:32 <Sgeo> Or at least, part of tooth
06:13:08 <catseye> It was abducted by aliens!
06:19:51 <catseye> In this state, my music goes by waay too quick
06:21:47 <Gregor> Actually, like most other people who had a C64, I had a C128.
06:22:38 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv6Ewqx3PMs
06:23:05 <catseye> Song is not great, but I remember the video. Cute puppet.
06:23:58 <catseye> Gregor: I'm not sure what to make of the C64 now. I had a genuine C64, to start. Then a C64C as well (the power supply on those was more reliable.)
06:25:38 <catseye> My earliest music, though -- written as SIDPIC songs.
06:26:11 <Gregor> circle-triangle-underscore, EPIC, wide X
06:28:08 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-EcasIakX4 -- MSeq sounds like something you'd do to a Monad
06:30:58 <pikhq> Typelevel strictness?
06:36:00 <catseye> MY ANSWER TO THIS is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4n_zZ4TZ48
06:36:03 <pikhq> Someone reverse engineered Nethack's PRNG... And then logged onto a public server, killed himself on the first level by kicking a wand of wishing, three times a day.
06:36:33 <pikhq> http://alt.org/nethack/player-all.php?player=WowDeath Yes.
06:36:46 <pikhq> Gregor: He could have done a bunch of ascensions, but that's funnier.
06:38:47 <pikhq> Oh, whaddya know. ais523 developed the bot that does that.
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06:40:11 <catseye> We are all pretty smart here, and we consistently apply it to pretty useless things.
06:40:39 <zzo38> catseye: You are probably right..... that is one of the things done in esolangs.
06:42:35 <zzo38> I got the subroutine code working, using the PHA and RTS and stuff. Whoever told me was correct.
06:44:47 <catseye> zzo38: About the divide-by-3? cool.
06:45:21 <zzo38> catseye: No, not the divide-by-3. But my other question about how the PC is returned from the stack, worked.
06:46:09 <zzo38> (The emulator I use allows memory view function to work even for .NSF files, which is helpful that I can see that it is working.
06:47:05 <catseye> I am sitting here, inebriated, writing nothing myself, listening to Mendelsohnn's violin concerto in E minor in amazement.
06:48:38 <GreaseMonkey> also, do not pass go, do not collect 200 zorkmids
06:48:46 <zzo38> It looks like you are writing this message, isn't it?
06:49:17 <zzo38> I am still not quite sure how to make the divide by three.
06:49:28 <catseye> I collected 290 zorkmids! how unfortunate.
06:50:01 * catseye pays it back, with interest
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06:53:15 <zzo38> By looking at the PPMCK codes, I see a lot of codes JSR followed by RTS, but I though JMP should be usually just as good, isn't it?
06:56:43 <catseye> btw, I forgot who aksed, but... I got a copy of "ML for the Working Programmer" -- good introduction to functional programming, because it doesn't dwell on the trivial parts for too long, and it gets into some interesting implementations, like a lambda calculus interpreter,
06:57:05 <zzo38> There is another way that works: http://sprunge.us/NYhO
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07:25:11 <zzo38> If I can make it divide by three, then I can make it the codes with semicolons to work correctly. http://sprunge.us/KFZW
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10:13:45 <asie[afk]> "By 1992 that same company'reshaped into Outukumpu Metals Group (OMG; Cleveland)'posted sales of $200 million."
10:16:26 <augur> asie[afk]: have i mentioned my new company LULZ?
10:16:44 <augur> its a daughter company of my previous company WTFBBQ
10:20:54 <asie[afk]> i haven't heard of a company called WTFBBQ
10:32:50 <fizzie> Outokumpu sounds morelikely than Outukumpu.
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11:39:16 <asie[afk]> do you know any Brainf**k code that can be used as a benchmark for interpreters
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13:20:27 <Vorpal> <asie[afk]> do you know any Brainf**k code that can be used as a benchmark for interpreters <-- that mandelbrot one?
13:20:38 <Vorpal> asie[afk], it depends on exactly what you want to measure.
13:21:49 <Vorpal> lostking can be useful to measure how well it handles large code, but it isn't especially computation intensive, the mandlebrot one is not very large (well, for being brainfuck that is), but is quite computation intensive
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14:31:08 <elliott> 19:36:13 <zzo38> There are many Linux distributions, Ubuntu is not the only one, so, you can pick whichever one you want, or even write your own
14:31:16 <elliott> catseye: so did you write your own?
14:31:36 <elliott> or are you stuck into the false monochotomy of Ubuntu?!?!
14:36:58 <elliott> 20:54:05 <catseye> Need to ask elliott what he thinks of Roger Penrose, wen I see him next.
14:37:01 <elliott> more detailed question plz
14:37:47 <elliott> 21:11:56 <Gregor> catseye: How did you even FIND a keyboard with Alt Gr?
14:38:14 <elliott> 21:23:26 <pikhq> "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despire".
14:38:17 <elliott> despire, new favourite word
14:38:19 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, but catseye is not in the UK.
14:38:26 <Gregor> And US keyboards do not.
14:38:27 <elliott> Gregor: doesn't mean he hasn't ever been
14:40:51 <elliott> 21:58:28 <Gregor> catseye: I avoid titles not because I don't like good titles, but because I'm title-incompetent.
14:40:56 <elliott> Archaeology on a Summer's Rapey Afternoon
14:41:11 <Gregor> Speaking of title-incompetent ...
14:41:23 <elliott> Gregor: That's Opus 14's title.
14:41:51 <elliott> Gregor: Theme from "Tarski and Hutch"
14:43:00 <elliott> Gregor: C'mon, that is an amazing title.
14:45:41 <elliott> 22:38:47 <pikhq> Oh, whaddya know. ais523 developed the bot that does that.
14:45:46 <elliott> was it TAEB or one he custom-made?
14:45:51 <elliott> ais didn't do TAEB, just TAEB::Planar
14:45:59 <elliott> or TAEB::AI::Planar, whatever it is
14:48:13 <elliott> [[earth_is_flat -6 points 2 hours ago[-]
14:48:13 <elliott> but science is so perfect, so pure, with its theory of evolution that doesn't apply to people, its theories on humors that morphed into germ theory that became stem cell theory and gene theory, and its communist beliefs in public health....lol]]
14:59:33 <Vorpal> hrrm, what are the chances of the ipsec daemon, the ipv6 router daemon and an ipv6 multicast daemon not interfering with each other? I should be able to get ipv6 multicast it seems.
14:59:49 <Vorpal> seems the sixxs POP I'm connected to recently added support for that
15:00:40 <catseye> elliott: i totally wrote my own. last night. running it now. yep.
15:01:08 <elliott> catseye: is the windows partition really important? i'd have just upgraded the ubuntu install
15:03:36 <elliott> Gregor: Does not-quite-debtakeover work?
15:04:21 <Gregor> elliott: It did at some point. I haven't tested it in a long while.
15:04:44 <catseye> elliott: i guess the windows partition is a "nice to have" and it sounded more of a known quantity than upgrading ubuntu, given that they both require that i back up my files somehow.
15:05:42 <elliott> Gregor: Would it work to convert a bastardised half-Debian with a custom bootloader and an insane linuxrc on an ARM platform that uses Xfbdev?
15:06:00 <elliott> catseye: just move the ubuntu files to the windows partition
15:06:30 <Gregor> elliott: I've only tried it on borderline-sensible systems, and haven't tried it on ARM, so all I can say is "dorp."
15:07:08 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I got a debootstrap chroot working, and even got the init script to load into it.
15:07:13 <elliott> (I fucked it up for irrelevant reasons but that's not important.)
15:07:22 <elliott> Gregor: It's just, y'know, I sorta don't want the Evil System above it.
15:08:25 <catseye> elliott: once i am conscious today i plan to go out and buy something. external hdd that works, external dvd writer, or a Mac or something.
15:08:52 <Gregor> elliott: It's worth a try but I guarantee nothing :P
15:08:56 <elliott> catseye: You'd probably love a Mac for a week because suddenly you've forgotten what Windows and Linux are and "hey, it's BSD" and then suddenly you want to murder someone.
15:09:17 <elliott> And you do it, because Macs make people GOAL-ORIENTED.
15:09:21 -!- elliott has left (?).
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15:09:57 <catseye> elliott: it's weird, but many of the developers where I work use Macs. So I've actually had to deal with porting-to-Mac issues at work.
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15:10:21 <catseye> I can't even get processes to change their process group!
15:10:56 <catseye> That userland veneer isn't fooling me!
15:11:06 <elliott> catseye: It's actually BSD running on Mach. X_X
15:11:39 <Gregor> Which is totally the intended use of Mach. Take this microkernel infrastructure, then slap a monolithic kernel on it. PROBLEM SOLVED.
15:13:55 <catseye> So wish I had a working burner. But I'm not trusting an external burner to be usable by this computer, now. An external HDD, at least that's a fairly generic USB storage device that any OS ought to understand.
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15:24:58 <pikhq> Gregor: Hooray, BSD-Mach! MkLinux! Retardedness!
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15:34:52 <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor: Would it work to convert a bastardised half-Debian with a custom bootloader and an insane linuxrc on an ARM platform that uses Xfbdev? <-- is this about that weird thingy again?
15:35:11 <Vorpal> you know, the one you fucked up twice
15:41:10 <elliott> Vorpal: but hey, before i fucked it up the second time, it booted into debian
15:41:23 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's still bricked...
15:41:24 <Vorpal> elliott, oh right, how did you fuck it up then?
15:42:01 <elliott> Vorpal: i tried to make getty use something other than /bin/login that cleared the screen first to clear up some visual artefacts from the bootloader
15:42:10 <elliott> but since it was such a freaking simple change, i didn't bother to have a /bin/login one around
15:42:15 <elliott> turns out linux makes no sense at all
15:44:00 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:44:07 <elliott> hmm too many spaces for a title bar
15:44:11 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:44:20 <elliott> some people have smaller windows :P
15:44:28 <Vorpal> not that it goes into my actual title bar though
15:44:33 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:44:33 <Vorpal> that still says just emacs :P
15:44:41 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:44:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it is halway through my topic bar atm
15:44:50 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:44:56 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm aligning it perfectly to mine and fuck everyone else :D
15:44:56 <Vorpal> a bit more than halfway
15:45:01 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:45:04 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:45:07 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:45:10 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:45:20 -!- Vorpal has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:45:25 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:45:33 <elliott> Vorpal: no this is disrespectful.
15:45:38 <Vorpal> elliott, nah, not worth doing a fight
15:47:45 <elliott> Vorpal: i only put spaces there because i thought it's a bit lame to have a eulogy for someone so awesome right next to a long log link drowning it out
15:47:54 <elliott> this logic is admittedly leaky
15:51:10 <pikhq> elliott: Benoît Mandelbrot died? Citation?
15:51:36 <elliott> http://kottke.org/10/10/benoit-mandelbrot-rip cites a lot of twats on Twitter (unreliable, but...)
15:51:37 <elliott> and http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/
15:51:42 <elliott> Nassim Nicholas Taleb's website
15:51:44 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb
15:52:04 <elliott> "Taleb is collaborating with Benoit Mandelbrot on a general theory of risk management.[59]"
15:52:08 <elliott> so if he says Mandelbrot's dead...
15:52:26 <pikhq> He's either correct or the worst kind of troll.
15:52:36 <elliott> pikhq: I don't think he's evil :P
15:57:05 <elliott> "Thank you very much. Excuse me for sitting I am very old." -- Mandelbrot, TED talk, February 2010
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16:21:37 <pikhq> Maan. The reason behind so many poor design decisions in Javascript.
16:21:48 <pikhq> "Give me a break; we had 10 days and it had to look like Java."
16:22:43 <pikhq> Most perverse is its complete lack of integers.
16:23:26 <elliott> pikhq: JavaScript was the result of Brendan Eich being told to write something like Java and deciding to make it as much like Scheme as he could.
16:23:37 <elliott> Think what it would have been like if he'd just made something like Java. The man's a hero!
16:24:17 <pikhq> You've got to give him credit for churning out something not completely revolting in 10 days. :)
16:26:42 <pikhq> “Ten days without much sleep to build JS from scratch, "make it look like Java" (I made it look like C), and smuggle in its saving graces: first class functions (closures came later but were part of the plan), Self-ish prototypes (one per instance, not many as in Self).”
16:34:15 <pikhq> Apparently, Windows has *two* different notions of the default character set.
16:34:22 <pikhq> The "OEM" and the "ANSI" code pages.
16:34:49 <pikhq> The "OEM" code pages are chosen from the DOS set, and are used for DOS programs.
16:35:07 <pikhq> The "ANSI" code pages are the full set of Windows-supported character sets, and are used for everything else.
16:41:24 <pikhq> So many crazy hacks.
16:41:47 <pikhq> Though I guess it's at least justified since they still have the *notion* of running this freakish, 30 year old programs.
16:43:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah on sane systems you use something like dosbox to run them :P
16:43:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: DOSemu if you're sufficiently lucky. :)
16:43:58 <pikhq> Though, it doesn't take *much* luck to be running x86.
16:44:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, I thought it needed vm86() which wouldn't work on x86-64
16:45:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: On x86-64, it emulates an 8086.
16:45:20 <pikhq> But directly executes 32-bit code.
16:46:05 <pikhq> It's not hard to just emulate an 8086, after all. :)
16:46:56 <elliott> pikhq: i am now going to use the FELL TYPES
16:46:59 <elliott> this fact must always be announced
16:48:10 <pikhq> Snarky, somewhat rude, yet utterly meaningless comment in American vernacular.
16:48:27 <elliott> pikhq: I get that, I just didn't see the relevance at all :)
16:48:39 <elliott> I wonder if \documentclass{memoir} would work for a newspaper/magazine type dealie...
16:48:52 <pikhq> elliott: It made sense when I hit enter.
16:49:40 <pikhq> Hmm. On other architectures, you *could* use qemu to run dosemu. XD
16:51:10 <Vorpal> argh, where the fuck is the details of the ipsec netlink kernel interface documented. Not in any man page I can find, nor in the Documentation directory of the kernel it seems!
16:52:28 <Ilari> Haha (rough translation): "Sugar is harmful but only if it fattens, hard fat is harmful even if it doesn't fatten" -- Cholesterol researcher Petri Kovanen. M-M-M-MONSTER FAIL!
16:54:35 <Ilari> Apparently he got sugar and hard fat the wrong way around...
16:55:06 <pikhq> Huh. Adobe has documentation on how to use a 32-bit Flash on 64-bit systems. They actually point you towards nspluginwrapper.
16:55:10 <elliott> new vocabulary entry: M-M-M-MONSTER FAIL!
16:57:19 <Vorpal> elliott, that is yet another new entry!
16:57:57 <Ilari> I din't invent that... :-/
16:58:07 <elliott> Ilari: Never heard it though.
16:58:13 <elliott> pikhq: You sure are angry today.
17:02:00 <Ilari> Well, if the "hard fat" is techno fat (as opposed to animal fat or one of few kinds hard plant fats), then its harmful even if it doesn't fatten...
17:09:36 <elliott> pikhq: \setmainfont[Mapping=tex-text]{IM FELL Great Primer PRO}
17:10:19 <elliott> pikhq: [[I'd suggest you try LuaLaTeX with fontspec from github[1], it should
17:10:19 <elliott> work with microtype package while being able to use OpenType fonts. But
17:10:19 <elliott> note that this is a development version of fontspec and not very well
17:10:31 <elliott> pikhq: LuaTeX can do OpenType and microtype. Discuss.
17:11:55 <pikhq> Isn't LuaTeX the replacement for pdfTeX?
17:15:03 <elliott> pikhq: And if you have TeX, you probably have LuaTeX too.
17:16:15 <elliott> http://github.com/wspr/fontspec
17:16:18 <elliott> "This is the initial generation of the fontspec package with support for LuaLaTeX. (Previously, fontspec was XeLaTeX-only.)"
17:16:57 <elliott> Dunno if that's the LuaTeX-supporting version, though.
17:17:04 <elliott> pikhq: Regardless: MICROTYPE WITH OPENTYPE FONTS OMG OMG OMG
17:22:25 <elliott> pikhq: Feck; you need TeX Live 2010.
17:22:33 <elliott> pikhq: Are you still on Gentoo?
17:25:26 <fungot> elliott: look and say, hey, look, i just want ( 3 2) ( 2 5)" means end the current box with a web server etc, and it
17:28:02 <pikhq> I have concluded that everybody sucks at everything, and keeping Gentoo is less work.
17:30:10 <fungot> elliott: it's what i'm doing. plz let me try your benchmark...
17:33:57 <elliott> pikhq: Things that are ridiculous: the st ligature
17:38:16 <pikhq> Things that are ridiculous: how poor text display is on computers.
17:40:04 <pikhq> Awesomely bad, perhaps.
17:40:31 <elliott> pikhq: you know what else is awesome?
17:43:53 <Vorpal> argh, nmap can't do UDP scan over ipv6
17:43:59 <Vorpal> how the fuck am I supposed to debug this then
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17:49:34 <ais523> hmm, does the link in the topics go to the logs?
17:53:34 <ais523> hard to tell with a shortener involved
17:53:39 <elliott> ais523: I shortened it out of some sort of warped respect for Mandelbrot that I shouldn't make anything overshadow the RIP
17:53:51 <elliott> I would have removed the log link but that violates Freenode's policy.
17:53:56 <ais523> it looks like the link is going to an obituary or something
17:54:05 <elliott> ais523: I might add some sort of divider.
17:54:09 <ais523> I didn't even realise that Mandelbrot had been still alive...
17:54:09 <elliott> Hmm, I've spelled his name incorrectly.
17:54:53 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoît Mandelbrot (logs: http://is.gd/g4uID).
17:55:11 <ais523> even though my client filters out the multiple spaces
17:58:10 <ais523> nah, it's just doing things Befunge-98-style rather than Befunge-93-style
18:03:19 <elliott> pikhq: I will now download a torrent from torrentz using only the infohash and the tracker list.
18:05:00 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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18:06:27 <elliott> pikhq: Do per-file priorities actually work well?
18:08:50 <elliott> Answer: Hell yeah they do.
18:09:36 <Vorpal> this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in any respect
18:10:50 <Vorpal> same version of strongswan on two different computers, both claim to be sending the packets to set up ipsec. Only one side actually sends such packages according to wireshark, Turning off all firewalls doesn't help.
18:15:13 <elliott> quintopia: no, we're just saying RIP Mandelbrot because he's gone to sleep
18:15:15 <elliott> and we want him to rest peacefully
18:15:53 <elliott> quintopia: well i could have just /not/ put the obituary in the topic.
18:16:10 <pikhq> elliott: Mmm, screw torrent files.
18:16:27 <elliott> bit of time to connect though
18:16:31 <elliott> quintopia: well he's dead and there's spaces.
18:16:40 <quintopia> but seriously, here i am expressing my distress at his death, and you're like "o yah, you're an idiot"
18:16:43 <elliott> they're, like, fractal space
18:17:26 <Vorpal> wait, what, now it works and then ipv4 stops working?
18:26:38 * pikhq wonders why Java bootstraps
18:29:53 -!- quintopia has set topic: RIP Benot Mandelbrot http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/us/17mandelbrot.html?_r=1 (logs: http://is.gd/g4uID).
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18:37:26 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoît Mandelbrot (logs: http://is.gd/g4uID).
18:37:33 <elliott> the topic is deliberately sparse.
18:37:35 -!- asie[afk] has changed nick to asie[sad].
18:37:58 <asie[sad]> this is the first time i've heard about him
18:38:37 <elliott> asie[sad]: Have you never seen the Mandelbrot set?
18:40:38 <asie[sad]> but i didn't know who made it, other than it was someone named Mandelbrot
18:41:14 <pikhq> Someone's not a Joco fan.
18:42:39 <elliott> pikhq: i listened to that song just minutes ago, heh
18:42:54 <elliott> "Mandelbrot's in heaven, at least he will be when he's dead / Right now he's still alive and teaching math at Yale" needs... updating
18:43:03 <elliott> although the song also describes how to construct a julia set
18:43:28 <pikhq> Yes, because the lyrics for a Mandelbrot set didn't fit as well. :P
18:43:40 <elliott> pikhq: iirc it was an actual mistake at first
18:43:43 <elliott> but then he decided it fit better
18:43:52 <elliott> pikhq: on the *other* hand:
18:45:38 <elliott> who wants to know hell itself?
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18:48:23 <pikhq> ... Huh. Wal-Mart is attempting to become more environmentally friendly in its supply chain because it's concluded that raping the environment hurts their bottom line.
18:49:43 <elliott> pikhq: FREE MEERKAT IN ACTION
18:49:57 <quintopia> the best way to a corporations heart is through its bottom line
18:50:24 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, a large part of this is courtesy of subsidies in pretty much every developed nation but the US. :P
18:56:49 <Sgeo> FightClub is gone! C_SPLAT is gone!
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19:04:59 <ais523> hmm, something wrong with the Crawl bots?
19:05:17 <ais523> Henzell and co are still on IRC
19:05:41 <ais523> so presumably, just the Crawl termcast bots
19:06:04 <ais523> hmm, they're back, as of about 5 minutes ago
19:10:06 <elliott> ais523: but why would you want to?
19:10:43 <ais523> even after checking scrollback, I don't understand the question
19:11:04 <elliott> ais523: watch Crawl, that is :)
19:11:25 <ais523> elliott: to gather evidence for a proof that Crawl is fundamentally boring
19:11:45 <elliott> ais523: the opposite of Vagrant
19:13:42 <pikhq> Wow. Newsweek was bought for $1.
19:13:50 <pikhq> Not an *issue* of Newsweek. The entire operation.
19:14:02 <pikhq> asie[sad]: I didn't!
19:14:11 <ais523> pikhq: presumably they bought the debt at the same time
19:14:13 <pikhq> asie[sad]: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/06/AR2010100606096_pf.html
19:14:19 <ais523> that's the usual explanation
19:14:24 <pikhq> ais523: All $10 million of it.
19:14:40 <ais523> (at least it makes more sense than buying a company with its own money, like happened to Manchester United; I'm surprised that's even possible)
19:15:16 <pikhq> ais523: Well, y'know, it's kinda like how you can pay off a credit card using another credit card.
19:15:22 <pikhq> (PEOPLE FUCKING DO THIS.)
19:15:49 <catseye> hi i've printed chits for my fantasy, wanna join?
19:15:56 <ais523> pikhq: well, it's not actually completely implausible
19:16:13 <ais523> in theory, given enough credit card companies and enough crazy introductory offers, you can actually make money like that
19:16:33 <ais523> what is insane, is paying off a credit card using another credit card, then continuing to use the first one, which is what often actually happens
19:18:55 <Sgeo> That wasn't some weird typo like I was expecting
19:19:08 <elliott> Sgeo: It's not insane because of the debts.
19:19:33 <Sgeo> In that case, who'd want to buy it, even for $1?
19:20:15 <Gregor> pikhq: That site indicates that $10 million of the (undisclosed) total dept is being paid by the ORIGINAL owner.
19:20:53 <ais523> hmm, so they bought all but $10 million of the debt
19:21:15 <Gregor> Which is probably more on the order of 9 digits of debt than 8 :P
19:22:45 <elliott> <Sgeo> In that case, who'd want to buy it, even for $1?
19:22:50 <elliott> well because it's like buying it for $1 + debt
19:22:57 <elliott> so if you think you can make it profitable...
19:34:44 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, because of the sheer insanity of credit cards, people were able to keep that going for *ages*.
19:35:19 <ais523> it sounds like a way to game a naïve credit rating algorithm
19:35:33 <pikhq> Well, it does fuck with your credit score a lot.
19:35:44 <pikhq> Each new credit card application reduces your credit score.
19:35:54 <ais523> I'm glad that safeguard exists
19:35:57 <pikhq> The thing is, credit card companies were handing out cards to just about anyone.
19:36:12 <ais523> I just had a horrifying realisation "hey, you're technically paying all the cards back all the time, wouldn't that lead to a perfect score?"
19:36:17 <pikhq> With the credit rating just determining your interest rate.
19:36:41 <ais523> I don't really understand credit cards at all
19:36:50 <ais523> they seem to be built on the assumption that people will forget to pay
19:36:51 <pikhq> Moral of the story: the US financial system is basically a gigantic casino.
19:37:04 <coppro> or, more precisely, the assumption that people will overspend
19:37:16 <ais523> and yet, if people overspend, they go bankrupt and can't pay you back
19:37:37 <pikhq> You can only go bankrupt once every 8 years, IIRC.
19:37:55 <ais523> pikhq: oh, I'm not talking about technically bankrupt, but actually
19:38:07 <ais523> whether someone can legally go bankrupt or not doesn't influence whether they actually own any money
19:38:19 <pikhq> Also, they make quite a bit of money just off of people who merely pay the minimum fees.
19:38:39 <ais523> well, "just pay the minimum" is how you use a credit card as a loan
19:38:41 <pikhq> And, even more importantly for how they actually make money: they charge merchants per transaction.
19:38:55 <ais523> also, they insist that credit card and cash prices are the same
19:39:16 <ais523> thus, every time you use a credit card, the person you're buying from loses money, compared to if you'd paid cash
19:39:45 <Sgeo> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb385791.aspx
19:39:49 <Sgeo> Does 7 use the same exact model?
19:40:01 <pikhq> Which means that they make at least a *small* amount of money just so long as they end up getting back at least 100% of what's paid for using credit cards.
19:40:07 <elliott> "This model, also used in Windows 7"
19:40:13 <elliott> Reading comprehension: It's where you READ something and you then COMPREHEND it.
19:40:19 <pikhq> (for instance, using them as a 1-month, 0 interest loan)
19:41:05 * Sgeo doesn't know how to stop skimming
19:41:15 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's actually a reasonable security model, surprisingly.
19:41:30 <pikhq> Basically making "administrator" a matter of being on the sudoers list.
19:41:42 <ais523> much of Windows' changes since Vista, apart from the DRM stuff, have been reasonable, but too little too late
19:41:48 <ais523> well, since and including Vista
19:42:02 <pikhq> Probably the only problem with it is that previously, Windows programs assumed that they were administrator.
19:42:27 <Sgeo> Yeah, older programs keep causing Windows to ask me to allow changes to the HD
19:42:30 <pikhq> But, well, can't really fault Microsoft for the result of that being annoyance when they move toward sanity.
19:43:00 <pikhq> Especially as that old model *makes some amount of sense* for single-user, non-networked computers.
19:43:27 <elliott> catseye: invent a language
19:43:28 <pikhq> No excuse keeping it past, oh, Windows 95, though.
19:43:31 <ais523> yep, it's the Internet that caught Microsoft out
19:43:32 <Sgeo> Or in a world without bugs, kind of
19:43:51 <Sgeo> Not really, for less than trustworthy programs
19:44:09 <Sgeo> But then again, even in the newer model, someone could trust a less-than-trustworthy program
19:44:50 <pikhq> Sgeo: If the user is intentionally executing a malicious program, all security models pretty much go out the window.
19:45:03 <pikhq> It's only a question of how much damage can be done at that point.
19:45:37 <Sgeo> Well, if the model basically keeps programs sandboxed, and the user doesn't trust it enough to let it out of its sandbox..
19:45:53 <Sgeo> Then again, I suppose the question implies full trust
19:46:06 <pikhq> Yes, but the point is that the user can just be told that "This needs to be out of its sandbox" and a moron might follow through on that.
19:47:27 <Sgeo> A while ago, I imagined an OS where the user would be quizzed before being allowed to let stuff out of their sandboxes
19:49:17 <Sgeo> Got a pop-up recently that tried to do some Java thing
19:49:31 <Sgeo> I didn't know what it was, so kept clicking Cancel to the authorize thingy
19:49:36 <Sgeo> Someone not computer savvy....
19:50:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: Is trained to click "Okay" to everything.
19:50:47 * Sgeo decides that the Ninite install of VLC sucks
19:51:06 <Sgeo> It apparently doesn't install the VLC web plugin thingy
19:51:49 <Sgeo> Isn't that an older version?
19:52:11 <elliott> Python 2.6.6 (r266:84292, Sep 15 2010, 16:22:56)
19:52:11 <elliott> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
19:52:13 <Sgeo> What did they make unchangable recently?
19:52:17 <pikhq> let True == False = True in True == False
19:53:49 <pikhq> Sgeo: Windows 7 ships with one.
19:53:57 <elliott> "I liken starting one’s computing career with Unix, say as an undergraduate, to being born in East Africa. It is intolerably hot, your body is covered with lice and flies, you are malnourished and you suffer from numerous curable diseases. But, as far as young East Africans can tell, this is simply the natural condition and they live within it. By the time they find out differently, it is too late. They already think that the writing of shell scripts
19:53:57 <elliott> is a natural act." -- Ken Pier, Xerox PARC
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19:54:13 <pikhq> elliott: Ah, right. *That's* why my grandmother bought Ultimate...
19:54:22 <elliott> But XP Mode is almost useless.
19:54:59 <Sgeo> I'd imagine it would be just like the fun I had with WinXP in VMware some years ago
19:55:00 <pikhq> elliott: Hey, she didn't *consult* with me before going out to buy it.
19:55:02 <Gregor> !haskell let 1 + 1 = 3 in 1 + 1
19:55:25 <elliott> pikhq: "The best version of Windows 7 is called 'Ubuntu'."
19:55:42 <elliott> Gregor: Therefore Haskell sucks, right?
19:55:46 -!- Harpyon has joined.
19:55:51 <Gregor> elliott: Therefore the Python comment is silly.
19:55:58 <elliott> Gregor: I was joking with my Haskell thing.
19:56:00 <asie[sad]> !haskell let 2 + 2 = Gregor in 2 + 2
19:56:05 <asie[sad]> !haskell let 2 + 2 = Gregor in 2 + 2
19:56:06 <elliott> True and False should be *constants* ffs.
19:56:09 <elliott> And not overridable. At all.
19:56:21 <elliott> At least if you're making a language like Python.
19:56:31 <Gregor> asie[sad]: Gregor is undefined.
19:58:25 <pikhq> You need Ultimate to be able to have multiple locales installed on Windows at the same time‽
19:58:53 <zzo38> When the book is shipped to me, then I can reimplement TeX.
19:58:55 <pikhq> That's astoundingly shitty.
19:59:17 -!- wareya_ has joined.
19:59:37 <zzo38> And use this reimplementation as the one I put in Linux distribution. It should pass the TRIP test and also the TRIP'' test.
19:59:59 <pikhq> Without Ultimate, you have a system-wide locale instead of a per-user locale.
20:00:02 <pikhq> That's... Retarded.
20:00:21 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:01:45 <zzo38> pikhq: Is there some way that can tell it to change locale at login so that you can make fake per-user locale?
20:02:22 <pikhq> Also, you need to reboot to change the system locale.
20:03:06 <zzo38> I suppose you don't usually need a per-user locale, which might be why they didn't do it except Ultimate.
20:03:20 <zzo38> If you don't like that, use Linux or perhaps.
20:03:33 <pikhq> Where you can have per-app locales.
20:05:26 <zzo38> There is "applocale" program available for Windows, but I don't know if there is some versions it does not work with.
20:08:40 <zzo38> I don't use credit-card. And I don't want to use credit-card. I prefer to pay everything by cash. And if I run a business, I should put a service charge on any payment that is not cash.
20:09:57 <pikhq> Which means you wouldn't be able to run credit cards.
20:10:08 <pikhq> Would you do the same for debit cards or checks, though?\
20:10:20 <pikhq> (no charges for those)
20:10:49 <elliott> pikhq: I hate naming schemes for serials.
20:10:55 <elliott> (TV series, web series, etc.)
20:11:17 <zzo38> If I run it entirely by myself, of course I will not accept any payment other than cash, but I don't run a business all by myself, so the other people can help. However I would add service charges for everything that isn't cash. But more service charge for credit cards than for debit cards and checks.
20:11:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, as a curious related remark: in Sweden businesses are no longer allowed to add a charge to the price for debit and credit cards. Banks are however still allowed to charge businesses.
20:11:41 <elliott> "[season].[episode] Title", without leading 0s, works, but then what about extras for a series? What about extras that are chronologically related in some way?
20:12:03 <elliott> Perhaps "[season].S Title" for specials and "[season].[episode]S Title" for chronological specials.
20:12:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: Is it permitted to make a discount for cash payments, then? Or not?
20:12:22 <Vorpal> zzo38, wouldn't be legal to add such charges in Sweden any more.
20:12:38 <pikhq> elliott: I use [season]/[episode] - Title
20:12:48 <elliott> <zzo38> When the book is shipped to me, then I can reimplement TeX.
20:13:00 <Vorpal> zzo38, I would assume that it isn't, otherwise every business would be doing that by now.
20:13:12 <Vorpal> zzo38, to make up for the banks still charging them
20:13:17 <pikhq> elliott: With leading 0s, but only because everything insists on UTF-8betical sort.
20:13:39 <elliott> pikhq: Why season directories?
20:13:58 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, what about extra material? Just in the season directory?
20:14:02 <elliott> What about chronological extra material?
20:14:16 <elliott> What about chronological extra material?
20:14:41 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you trying to put this in an hierarchical tree! You need to free yourself from the flawed file system abstraction here.
20:14:42 <pikhq> If it's chronologically related to a specific episode, I'll probably do something like [episode].extra - Title
20:14:59 <Vorpal> (not ironic, well, mostly not)
20:15:05 <pikhq> It's all just a hack to get around pitiful, pitiful lacking of metadata, of course.
20:15:17 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah maybe i'll just put it all in one big file and seek around it.
20:15:44 * Sgeo removes Adobe Reader 9.3 with prejudice
20:16:29 <Vorpal> elliott, the best way would be to have some sort of linked list to indicate chronological order, and some ordered set of seasons, each containing an ordered set of episodes.
20:16:39 <Vorpal> elliott, that should handle extra material
20:16:50 <elliott> Vorpal: A linked list? Seriously?
20:16:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well, depends on how many
20:17:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: That fails horribly with complex chronological ordering.
20:17:11 <Vorpal> elliott, an ordered set would be better for large amounts of data
20:17:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, um, complex in what way?
20:17:20 <elliott> pikhq: I HAVE A SOLUTION *deletes extra material*
20:17:32 <elliott> pikhq: he meant release chronological :P
20:17:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, but there can be time travel within an episode
20:17:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I thought that is what you meant
20:17:44 <pikhq> Where chronological order is an ordered graph. :)
20:18:16 <pikhq> A *directed* graph.
20:18:22 <elliott> pikhq: Written any code lately? DHT IT
20:18:23 <zzo38> I should reimplement TeX because I don't like the way the current TeX distributions work; they work by requiring the TeX program in Pascal WEB, and then it also needs a lot of change files, and conversion programs and a lot of other things. So now it can be rewritten using Enhanced CWEB and omitting a lot of unnecessary things.
20:18:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, if there is time travel within an episode. Then one episode could show up at multiple places in the timeline. and that is kind of tricky to represent. Especially if you need to deal with "original timeline" vs. "changed timeline due to timetravel"
20:19:08 <elliott> zzo38: I am banging my head against the wall.
20:19:17 * pikhq laughs again at Microsoft...
20:19:22 <pikhq> Starter Edition of Windows.
20:19:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, I mean: time travel could be used to retcon an entire previous episode!
20:19:48 <pikhq> "Make it worse than the real thing in regions where piracy of the real thing is the norm!"
20:21:31 <zzo38> elliott: Why did you bang your head and crying?
20:21:39 <zzo38> Are you going to break your head now?
20:21:52 * pikhq should obtain lunch
20:21:53 <elliott> zzo38: Because you're reimplementing TeX. And yes.
20:23:07 <zzo38> Do you not like reimplementing TeX? But surely the current way is really messy, isn't it?
20:24:02 <elliott> zzo38: Well yes. But still. Is there anything you won't reimplement in your distro?
20:24:55 <zzo38> Probably I don't reimplement everything, but I might modify many things.
20:40:51 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:46:44 <pikhq> elliott: xrandr -o normal
20:54:16 * pikhq wonders if there's a way to convince an ATI card to do pillarboxed or letterboxed output for resolutions not at a 16:10 aspect ratio
20:54:45 <pikhq> (my monitor, for no apparent reason, just scales it all to 16x10)
21:01:24 <elliott> ais523: what does 0 on the end of a debian library package mean?
21:01:44 <pikhq> elliott: so version.
21:02:05 <elliott> how come the libfoo-dev packages sometimes have the number after foo and sometimes don't?
21:05:18 <Gregor> They have the number when currently or at some point in the past it has been possible to have both versions installed and usable concurrently.
21:07:35 <Slereah> I didn't even know Mandlebrot was still alive
21:10:42 <oerjan> what is weird about that? there are obviously many people that were famous but haven't done anything particularly newsworthy in the last decade or so
21:10:56 <elliott> oerjan: because mandelbrot seems like one of those guys who's dead
21:11:14 <oerjan> ...but his famous book was only in the 80s
21:11:22 <elliott> oerjan: and IRC is full of young brats.
21:12:12 <olsner> his discoveries are all surprisingly recent too, I always thought the mandelbrot set and all that stuff was discovered in the 30s or something by a mandelbrot at least 50 years older than he actually was
21:13:20 <catseye> I was vaguely under that impression too.
21:14:09 <oerjan> ...you do realise you need a graphical computer to do popular science with fractals?
21:14:15 <catseye> But French mathematicians always sound older than they are. Is Bezier still alive?
21:14:27 <Gregor> catseye: He died on Thursday.
21:14:36 <Gregor> I thought you wrote "Benoit" for some reason.
21:14:47 <catseye> Gregor: Yeah hi Gregor, thank you.
21:15:22 <Gregor> !haskell let catseye = 0 in catseye
21:15:35 <oerjan> Pierre Ãtienne Bézier (September 1, 1910 . November 25, 1999)
21:15:56 <oerjan> (my unicode is currently even brokener than usual, some server misconfiguration)
21:16:10 <olsner> haha, it's true, french mathematicians always sound older than they are :)
21:16:55 <oerjan> for example, is Nicolas Bourbaki still alive or not...
21:16:57 <elliott> <olsner> his discoveries are all surprisingly recent too, I always thought the mandelbrot set and all that stuff was discovered in the 30s or something by a mandelbrot at least 50 years older than he actually was
21:17:10 <elliott> i didn't realise fractals were so new and controversial at the time
21:17:16 <elliott> because they're so... obviously awesome
21:17:28 <olsner> oerjan: never alive due to not being an actual person :P
21:17:32 <catseye> I think (at least) I am confusing his work to a degree with Julia's.
21:17:43 <oerjan> olsner: DON'T SPOIL THE JOKE
21:17:58 <elliott> http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090819180841/uncyclopedia/images/1/13/Thats_the_joke.jpg
21:18:06 <elliott> <oerjan> ...you do realise you need a graphical computer to do popular science with fractals?
21:18:10 <elliott> no reason you couldn't have traced an outline :D
21:18:28 <pikhq> Gaaah. Only two of the modes on my X11 configuration are at the native aspect ratio
21:18:31 <elliott> note that super-quick judgements like these tend not to be thought about...
21:18:40 <catseye> Julia published his first work on the Julia set in 1918, it looks like. So, yeah.
21:18:42 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, you know how you advocated 16:9 screens?
21:18:49 <elliott> pikhq: Fucking sucks at 13".
21:18:58 <elliott> I would like more height please.
21:19:07 <pikhq> elliott: I've not really advocated 16:9 screens for much more than video.
21:19:24 <pikhq> elliott: Ideally, I'd have like a 9:16 screen for most purposes that could be rotated to 16:9 for video.
21:19:37 <elliott> pikhq: Vertical screens tend to suck.
21:19:43 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and vertical 9:16 screens are abhorrent.
21:19:54 <elliott> Strains your neck to look from top to bottom, and it's so thin you feel like your screen's anorexic.
21:20:27 <Gregor> I have dual 16:10, horizontal.
21:20:33 <Gregor> 'cuz I'm awesome like that.
21:20:35 <elliott> I have your mom, horizontal.
21:20:36 <pikhq> Actually. Y'know what? 4:3 is a nice aspect ratio for computer monitors.
21:20:47 <elliott> 'cuz I'm awesome like that.
21:21:03 <Gregor> elliott: Whatever floats yer boat, man. *gak*
21:21:37 <catseye> My god. For his entire professional career, Julia had no nose. It was blown off in the war.
21:21:54 <oerjan> also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Levi-Montalcini is clearly relevant to this discussion.
21:22:17 <elliott> catseye: He originally designed the Julia set to be experienced olfactorily.
21:22:27 <elliott> catseye: Took him a while to realise that wouldn't work.
21:23:04 <oerjan> it resembles those internal nose pictures, doesn't it
21:23:46 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Gustav_Herglotz,_Gaston_Julia.jpeg
21:23:46 <olsner> "Gaston Julia (right), with Gustav Herglotz, comparing dogs"
21:23:49 <elliott> as we can see, he also didn't have eyes
21:24:11 <elliott> "Mandelbrot set, discovered by Pierre Fatou and Julia"
21:24:25 <elliott> that things are named after the second people to do them
21:25:10 <oerjan> i saw that the other day
21:25:23 <elliott> catseye: That's what a FURRY would say.
21:25:48 <elliott> catseye: One day, a budding young Amiga programmer, ERIC SCHWARTZ, had that thought.
21:26:31 <elliott> [catseye hangs himself quietly]
21:26:35 <catseye> I have a working external HDD now, and I am happily copying everything to it.
21:26:47 <elliott> catseye: Do not lose that HD :P
21:27:39 <catseye> I only hope it's more reliable than that SimpleTech poc
21:27:59 <elliott> catseye: You should totally install NetBSD.
21:28:09 <elliott> [cogs whirr in catseye's mind and a chain reaction begins...]
21:28:14 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigler%27s_law_of_eponymy
21:28:54 -!- asie[sad] has quit.
21:29:20 <oerjan> why was asie sad, anyhow
21:29:52 <catseye> oerjan: because mandelbrot died, i think
21:30:05 <elliott> catseye: TOTALLY INSTALL NETBSD
21:30:19 <Sgeo> Should I TrueCrypt my HD?
21:30:23 <catseye> elliott: finish Kitten, and I'll install that!
21:30:35 <elliott> catseye: But install NetBSD first, since that's totally like at least 33% of Kitten.
21:31:22 <catseye> elliott: The #1 obstacle is going to be install media, you see -- no CD/DVD-R.
21:31:42 <catseye> Actually I might not have tried CD-R, but I know DVD-R just doesn't happening.
21:32:01 <catseye> elliott: Yes, I picked up another one when I got my ext hdd.
21:32:13 <catseye> Can you install *NetBSD* from one of those.
21:32:30 <elliott> catseye: Maybe not without the help of some third-party software, but I Can Help With That.
21:32:45 <elliott> http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ (available for Windows and Linux) + NetBSD 5.0.2 ISO = tada.
21:33:01 <elliott> (It has the ability to download NetBSD among others and put it on the USB stick automatically but I don't trust that it gets the right ISO.)
21:33:26 <catseye> OK, 2 hours for copy session #1 to finish.
21:33:27 <elliott> catseye: How old is the computer? Hopefully it can boot USB disks.
21:33:50 <catseye> Err it probably can, it's not THAT old.
21:34:03 <catseye> Oh, so this is what Vorpal was talking about.
21:34:10 <elliott> catseye: Was he talking about unetbootin too?
21:34:20 <elliott> Except more incoherently, I guess.
21:34:30 <catseye> Yes. I thought it was some kind of PXE thing. I mean, its got "net" in it.
21:34:36 <elliott> catseye: Yeah it's a stupid name.
21:34:41 <Gregor> It is a very bad name.
21:35:02 <catseye> So would this work with *any* ISO image?
21:35:08 <elliott> catseye: Maybe not Windows.
21:35:12 <elliott> catseye: It basically just installs SYSLINUX instead of ISOLINUX and I don't know how that works for NetBSD but whatever it has the option to download NetBSD so presumably it works.
21:35:19 <elliott> Gregor: http://sourceforge.net/dbimage.php?id=167328
21:35:23 <elliott> "NetBSD" is one of the options there
21:35:25 <Gregor> NetBSD almost assuredly uses isolinux.
21:35:40 <elliott> afaik it's just the bsd loader
21:35:43 <Gregor> Even on ISO? That's ... surprising.
21:35:59 <elliott> They don't use anyone else's shit, especially if it has "linux" in the name.
21:36:00 <Gregor> elliott: EVERYTHING uses isolinux.
21:36:14 <elliott> Gregor: Arch uses GRUB btw (but who gives a shit)
21:37:42 <catseye> I don't know what isolinux is but I don't see why this would depend on it
21:37:49 <elliott> catseye: Don't worry about it
21:38:00 <elliott> catseye: It'll either work or not -- if not, there's like 10 other ways to get it onto a USB stick.
21:38:04 <catseye> The main consideration seems to be if the media's boot sequence understands that it can be run from a USB drive
21:38:08 <elliott> catseye: But it supports downloading NetBSD automatically.
21:38:14 <elliott> Because that means it supports it.
21:38:19 <elliott> So you can download the iso and it will work fine.
21:40:17 <catseye> What the fuck are all these distros, anyway?
21:42:06 <elliott> catseye: Don't use that list.
21:42:09 <elliott> catseye: Just use the iso part.
21:42:12 <catseye> There simply isn't enough variation in the space of Linux install permutations to support as many distros as there are. Unless half of them are just "skins".
21:42:28 <catseye> Going to be more than 2 hours to copy, it looks like.
21:42:31 <elliott> Half of them are forks that change approximately nothing.
21:42:50 <elliott> catseye: Why are you trying to recover Windows again?
21:43:37 <catseye> elliott: No *good* reason.
21:47:13 <Gregor> elliott: I stand corrected, NetBSD is too lame to use ISOLINUX, instead it uses a friggin' boot floppy in El Torito floppy emulation mode!
21:47:28 <elliott> Gregor: But unetbootin supports it.
21:47:48 <Gregor> Well, unetbootin' really has LESS work to do with a boot floppy than with ISOLINUX *shrugs*
21:48:03 <catseye> Gregor: Yes. All BSDs do it that way iirc.
21:48:06 * Gregor is apparently incapable of typing "unetbootin" without an apostrphe at the end.
21:48:23 <elliott> Gregor: So is this a CD-sized boot "floppy" or a floppy-sized bootloader that loads the full CD?
21:48:32 <pikhq> elliott: Bootloader.
21:49:00 <pikhq> Amusingly, El Torito can also do hard drive emulation.
21:49:03 <elliott> "And here's my 600 meg floppy..."
21:49:06 <Gregor> El Torito doesn't support arbitrary floppy sizes for emulation. It supports HDD emulation, but that's effectively implemented nowhere.
21:50:20 <pikhq> No emulation is the most reliable one on modern hardware, funnily enough.
21:51:13 <Gregor> Hence why everything uses ISOLINUX *shrugs*
21:51:19 <catseye> elliott: So I take it Kitten will run the NetBSD kernel but will not go anywhere near the BSD boot model.
21:51:30 <elliott> catseye: I hadn't even thought about the bootloader.
21:51:37 <elliott> catseye: Is the hard-drive bootloader saner?
21:51:49 <pikhq> Gregor: You can then have ISOLINUX load a floppy disk emulation module.
21:51:57 <elliott> catseye: i'll probably just do that :P
21:52:00 <olsner> goddammit, netbsd still use CVS :(
21:52:07 <elliott> catseye: So are you installing NetBSD or not
21:52:14 <elliott> catseye: If so, you are awesome and... and I might as well
21:52:23 <catseye> THe one on FreeBSD resides *entirely* in the boot sector, thus is tiny and crude. Nothing lie that LiLo monstrosity
21:52:32 <catseye> I don't remember about NetBSD's
21:52:40 <pikhq> ... MEMDISK can emulate a floppy, hard drive, *or* CD.
21:52:50 <Gregor> catseye: Nobody's used LILO in like a decade :P
21:52:50 <elliott> 512 bootlaoder, impressive
21:53:02 <elliott> catseye: It means you can ANSWER COPIOUS QUESTIONS I HAVE FOR KITTEN
21:53:11 <Gregor> elliott: I'M AN OPTIMIST DAMN IT
21:53:13 <pikhq> You could use ISOLINUX to boot MEMDISK to boot an ISO.
21:53:17 <elliott> Gregor: lilo is less shit than grub.
21:53:22 <elliott> the only complaint about lilo is...
21:53:28 <elliott> "you have to run it after upgrading your kernel!"
21:53:34 <elliott> WE DON'T HAVE PACKAGE MANAGERS THAT CAN DO THAT FOR US
21:53:44 <pikhq> Gregor: LILO's still the default on Slackware.
21:53:51 <pikhq> Gregor: And an option on Debian-alikes.
21:54:01 <pikhq> ... And Gentoo, for that matter.
21:54:07 <pikhq> Actually, every modern distro still has it.
21:54:09 <Gregor> pikhq: Nobody's used Slackware in MORE than a decade :P
21:54:15 <Gregor> And of course every distro still HAS it.
21:54:20 <Gregor> It's just not the DEFAULT.
21:54:22 <elliott> Gregor just hates anything outside of the modern Debian canon.
21:54:23 <catseye> The nice thing about boot0cfg is that you can use it completely independent of the OSes you have installed. I've used it to dual-boot Windows and Linux...
21:54:39 <catseye> The downside is that almost all OSes show up as '????'
21:54:51 <elliott> ...which is because he's either unimaginative, has terrible taste, or is just a contrarian to contrarians.
21:55:12 <Gregor> Debian can do no wrong.
21:55:17 <Gregor> As I have defined "right" as "Debian"
21:55:41 <elliott> If "right" is Debian, I want to be a terrorist and a rapist.
21:56:03 <catseye> And booleans are for hooligans
21:56:06 <elliott> WORST WAY OF PHRASING THAT EVER
21:56:11 <pikhq> Ahahahah. You could totally make a Win95 live CD.
21:56:23 <Gregor> catseye: "Debian" doesn't rhyme with "plebian" ...
21:56:26 <pikhq> elliott: It's simple.
21:56:47 <pikhq> elliott: You make a HD image, and then make an ISO that boots that via MEMDISK.
21:56:48 <Gregor> Debian is named after one Deb and one Ian.
21:56:58 <Gregor> It is pronounced like the name "Deb" concatenated with the name "Ian"
21:57:04 <elliott> I define the pronunciation of Debian to be ...
21:57:10 <pikhq> (note: not likely to work on any hardware with enough RAM to actually stick that into RAM)
21:58:26 <catseye> Gregor: Just channel Ogden Nash, it'll be fine.
22:00:03 <Sgeo> pikhq, why not?
22:00:33 <Gregor> I failed to make an AT&T SysV boot CD a while ago :P
22:01:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: It would need to load the entire HD image into RAM.
22:02:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: And Win95 doesn't like more than like 512M of RAM.
22:02:25 <elliott> pikhq: you can fix that easily
22:02:47 <elliott> also 95 installs are less than 512 megs i think...
22:02:50 <Sgeo> Note to everyone: Stop making things that dislike more than a certain amount of resources
22:02:55 <Gregor> pikhq: That probably wouldn't work since MEMDISK only exposes the disk through BIOS, not IDE, and Win95 (presumably ... oh god please tell me it does :P) would use the IDE bus directly.
22:03:20 <pikhq> Gregor: It *tries* to use the IDE bus directly.
22:03:27 <Gregor> pikhq: However, it's much simpler than that. Just make a tiny DOS boot partition that loads a CD driver, then have Win95 actually installed on the CD.
22:03:27 <pikhq> Gregor: If it *can't*, then it uses DOS.
22:03:33 <Gregor> ORLY? That's ... silly.
22:03:57 <catseye> for certain values of awesome
22:04:16 <pikhq> Also, if there is any hook into the DOS filesystem routines, then it jumps into DOS to run those hooks.
22:05:14 <pikhq> And it has its own hooks into the DOS filesystem routines so that any DOS program will end up actually calling the Win95 filesystem routines.
22:05:35 <Gregor> Also, *brain explodes*
22:05:47 <pikhq> And *also* so that DOS filesystem hooks will jump back *into* Win95.
22:06:16 <Gregor> Running AT&T SysV off a boot CD would be more entertaining.
22:06:53 <pikhq> In essence, Win95 tried as hard as it could to pretend to be DOS.
22:11:08 <catseye> elliott: Yes, probably NetBSD.
22:14:37 <Sgeo> This thingy for protecting the hard drive. The software just reports and optionally toggles, right?
22:14:41 <Sgeo> That makes much more sense
22:19:58 <Vorpal> so I can only conclude that ipsec tunneling is very very very screwy
22:20:09 <Vorpal> 1) it doesn't use a pseudo interface like other tunnel types
22:20:45 <Vorpal> 2) the routes look weird. Like <inner ip> via <normal standard gateway>.
22:21:04 <Vorpal> 3) wireshark at the endpoints captures packages twice, first encrypted then decrypted
22:21:10 * Sgeo is looking at notebook cases
22:21:13 <Vorpal> (note, this does not happen for transport mode)
22:21:25 <Sgeo> http://www.amazon.com/rooCASE-Neoprene-Satellite-T115-S1100-11-6-Inch/dp/B0040OVEIE/ref=sr_1_8?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1287263804&sr=1-8
22:21:39 <Sgeo> Looks good, but I want a case I feel comfortable putting in my backpack
22:21:50 <Sgeo> And my backpack tends to get mushed around a lot
22:22:12 <Sgeo> Maybe it's not so bad to carry a case around
22:23:01 * oerjan adjusts Vorpal's punnimeter again.
22:23:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't see what you are trying to pun on
22:24:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, ipsec → ipso? No, that is too bad, can't be that
22:24:11 * oerjan thinks something is rattling inside
22:24:31 * oerjan sulks in the corner. You're mean!
22:25:46 * oerjan bawls at ear-damaging volume, then remembers sound doesn't transfer on irc
22:28:31 <Sgeo> Dear Toshiba website: ACKNOWLEDGE MY LAPTOP'S EXISTENCE
22:33:43 <Gregor> Sgeo: Please enable Toshiba Genuine Advantage, then call this number.
22:36:02 <Sgeo> What, exactly, were Vista's problems?
22:37:56 <Gregor> It tasted like burning goats.
22:40:07 <Vorpal> Sgeo, huge, slow, annoying?
22:42:19 <Sgeo> Windows 7's security model seems to force you to trust anything that you want to install
22:42:29 <Sgeo> Unless it's just that I keep installing old programs
22:45:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo, same for xp or vista really
22:46:55 <Sgeo> It still sucks
22:47:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yeah, go for linux
22:47:21 <Sgeo> There should be separate "Install" "Regular access" and "Full access" levels
22:47:44 <Sgeo> Instaling on Linux is always "full access" or "user-level"
22:47:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo, 90% (a guesstimate) of the software doesn't need more than normal user access really
22:48:32 <Vorpal> 5% (again guesstimate) of the remaining just needs one or two small things, such as listening to a privileged port.
22:48:34 <Sgeo> But surely it's best to place the executables and other such files ouut of reach of normal access
22:48:39 <Vorpal> the remaining 5% really needs root
22:49:07 <Vorpal> Sgeo, on *nix I normally install non-package-manager stuff into ~/local
22:49:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, the only case I installed something outside of package manager that needed root was with kismet. Since package manager version was outdated, installed into /opt/kismet
22:50:04 <Vorpal> and that needs privileged access for some parts to run
22:50:10 <Vorpal> oh wait, aircrack-ng too
22:50:35 <Sgeo> But, suppose there's an exploit in the browser. It can tamper with any software installed to ~/local
22:52:35 <Gregor> Suppose there's an exploit in the kernel. Now anything can tamper with any software installed to /usr.
22:52:45 <Gregor> Suppose there's an exploit in the CPU. Now anything can make your bus explode.
22:53:06 <Gregor> Suppose there's an exploit in the very laws of physics. Suppose that supposing exploits exist here and there isn't all that helpful.
22:53:58 <Sgeo> But browser exploits are presumably common. At least on Windows they are, even outside of IE. Why would Linux browsers be different in that respect?
22:55:08 <oerjan> Gregor: http://www.exitmundi.nl/vacuum.htm
22:55:46 <oerjan> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schild%27s_Ladder
22:56:06 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Suppose there's an exploit in the CPU. Now anything can make your bus explode. <-- only if the bus trusts the CPU!
22:56:21 <Vorpal> and it also needs some sort of explosive device built in
22:56:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why would I browse with same user account?
22:56:55 <zzo38> How is that ever going to happen?
22:57:38 <Sgeo> Vorpal, oh, so ~/local with installed stuff is different from regular usage account?
22:57:49 <Sgeo> Now: To get that model of security into everyone's hands
22:58:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: There's ways of getting executable-specific permissions (y'know, where each *program* is limited in what it can do based on what the program is, rather than who's running it).
22:58:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: The *problem* is that it's often a royal pain to deal with.
22:59:27 <Vorpal> Sgeo, no, browser runs under a non-regular account
22:59:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Still, some distros are actually shipping using that.
22:59:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, you mean ipsec, rsbac, and such
23:00:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: SELinux and friends.
23:00:21 <Vorpal> of course, the ubuntu profiles for apparmor for user applications are generally useless
23:00:28 <Vorpal> since they more or less allow $HOME
23:00:48 <Vorpal> and writing a profile for firefox would be extremely hard
23:00:52 <pikhq> I know that they do that to make it easier to deal with, but doesn't that kinda defeat the point?
23:01:48 <Vorpal> apparmor_status claims there are profiles for tcpdump, cupsd, ntpd, various network-manager things and so on. evince is the only "user app" that has a profile
23:02:05 <Vorpal> and well, writing profiles for daemons is way way simpler
23:02:05 <Sgeo> Nothing that requires deep analysis of programs, I thin... well, maybe. Would it be ok if profiles were written by the developers of the programs, or is that a fundamentally stupid and idiotic idea? I'm thinking the latter for not completely trusted programs, but my understanding of AppArmor might not be complete
23:02:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, well depends on if you trust them
23:02:37 <Vorpal> if you are worried about bugs
23:03:02 <Sgeo> I think the idea I want is to have to trust as little as possible
23:03:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, then you need to write them yourself, have fun
23:03:17 <Sgeo> How much access could Joe Schmoe random userland app possibly want?
23:03:21 <Vorpal> oh and write your own browser
23:03:26 * Sgeo ignores AppArmor
23:03:46 <Sgeo> Just trying to think of a nice usable security model
23:03:52 <Sgeo> I think I hate this keyboard.
23:03:54 <Vorpal> Sgeo, consider firefox: saving download needs access. Same does file upload
23:03:59 <Vorpal> both are things you sometimes want
23:04:36 <Sgeo> Isn't there work on a user-friendly capabilities system?
23:04:48 <pikhq> Security is really, really, really annoying with a traditional, hierarchical filesystem.
23:04:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, or what about checking a .html file locally, if you are testing a website, or just browsing local documentation
23:05:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, actually iirc plash has some sort of override-file-open-gtk-widget-with-trusted-one
23:05:42 <Vorpal> to allow selective access
23:05:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: I'm not sure you can call that a traditional, hierarchical filesystem.
23:05:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, well it is accessing one
23:06:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, but true, it isn't one in itself
23:06:10 <pikhq> It just... Displays as one.
23:06:34 <catseye> I totally need to download and try the unetin thing before I try recovering Windows, in case that wipes out more than it should.
23:06:52 <zzo38> I don't need AppArmor and SELINUX and that stuff; when I make something in Linux for program capability security, instead I can add a single system call for that purpose: set_overcall(int system_call_number,void*(*new_function)(void*args,int flag))
23:07:01 <Vorpal> catseye, unetin? is that different from unetboot?
23:07:11 <Vorpal> catseye, also: "recovering"? what happened?
23:07:21 <pikhq> zzo38: ... So, you're wanting something that can trace system calls?
23:07:34 <Vorpal> zzo38, you mean.... ptrace?
23:07:41 <pikhq> Yeah, we call that ptrace.
23:08:06 <Vorpal> zzo38, it exists, and is what debuggers use
23:08:10 <zzo38> pikhq: Something like that. set_overcall would be able to override itself as well, and you would need to do so if you want to have actual security.
23:08:26 <zzo38> As well as stealth so that application programs cannot tell they are overridden.
23:08:31 <Sgeo> Is there a useful subset of turing-completeness that would allow solving the halting problem, while still being powerful enough for most uses?
23:08:36 <Vorpal> well, you could easily do that in ptrace, just catch any ptrace related syscalls
23:08:40 <Vorpal> and do something else instead
23:08:56 <pikhq> Yeah, it's perfectly feasible.
23:09:07 <catseye> Vorpal: no, i meant unetbootin.
23:09:08 <zzo38> Vorpal: O, is that what ptrace does? OK, I suppose perhaps that can work
23:09:34 <zzo38> But I will need to learn how (hopefully I will learn how)
23:09:42 <Vorpal> zzo38, ptrace does a lot of things. It is able to set breakpoints and so on after all for debuggers
23:09:48 <Vorpal> and prod registers and what not
23:09:57 <catseye> Sgeo: Yes, it's called "primitive recursive functions"
23:10:02 <pikhq> Plash *intends* to eventually use ptrace for their sandboxing.
23:10:08 -!- Kater has joined.
23:10:55 <pikhq> ptrace is/was used to implement User Mode Linux.
23:10:57 -!- Kater has left (?).
23:11:01 <pikhq> To trap all system calls.
23:11:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: How else would it?
23:11:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, didn't it run a kernel in user space?
23:11:42 <pikhq> And ran normal executables on that.
23:11:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, how does virtualbox and such do it
23:12:10 <pikhq> It emulates a computer.
23:12:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, actually since syscalls are done by jumping to a specific address in the program (the vdso) it would be easy to just change that one to do something else
23:12:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, not very... reliable though
23:12:50 <pikhq> Vorpal: Or via int 0x80. Or via a CPU instruction.
23:13:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, iirc that is what the actual vsdo does
23:13:19 <pikhq> Yeah, but it's also supported to go into the kernel directly.
23:13:25 <pikhq> And this was the norm before 2.6.
23:13:38 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:13:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, what the hell does ps aux look like with uml running?
23:14:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, will there be some weird init process at a non-standard number?
23:14:16 <pikhq> Normal in the UML.
23:14:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, I meant on host
23:14:27 <pikhq> Outside, there's a single vmlinux process. :)
23:14:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, so, it doesn't show the interior ones?
23:14:49 <Sgeo> How often does anyone ever want to upload system files?
23:14:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, also how does uml detect a syscall from the uml kernel to the real kernel
23:14:52 <pikhq> It does its own scheduling!
23:15:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, um, it happened that I attached /var/log/dmesg to bug reports
23:15:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: Well, it's running in its kernel space, so it'll just *not* trap the syscall.
23:16:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh it is ptracing itself?
23:16:11 <pikhq> It runs as a single process.
23:16:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, I thought it would be two processes for that at least
23:16:46 <pikhq> It can't do memory protection, though.
23:17:00 <pikhq> I *think* in 2.6 they added a system call to allow them to manage that.
23:17:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, so any process can write to the memory of any other process inside the uml?
23:17:31 <pikhq> Well, what else can they do?
23:18:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, that means a user space program could just over write the ptrace handler and be out and free
23:18:06 <pikhq> It's running a *completely* unmodified userland in user space.
23:18:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, it could single step the code :P
23:19:15 <Sgeo> Grrrr at older game that wants access to HD in normal use
23:20:12 <Vorpal> "As of Linux 2.6.0 it is integrated into the main kernel source tree. A method of running a separate kernel address space (skas) that does not require host kernel patching has been implemented; This improves performance and security over the old Traced Thread approach, in which processes running in the UML share the same address space from the host's point of view, which leads the memory inside the UML to not be protected by the Memory manageme
23:20:13 <Vorpal> nt unit. Unlike the current UML using skas, buggy or malicious software inside a UML running on a non-skas host could be able to read the memory space of other UML processes or even the UML kernel memory."
23:20:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, now I wonder what the magic syscall is
23:28:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, ever used colinux?
23:28:50 <catseye> elliott: Sigh. I am downloading the NetBSD 5.0.2 install ISO, via torrent.
23:31:26 <olsner> but it's only 250MB, a torrent seems superfluous compared to finding a fast mirror :)
23:33:36 <catseye> olsner: perhaps. partly i was curious.
23:34:06 <catseye> torrents are also easier to continue when interrupted.
23:34:15 <zzo38> I have now posted the version 0.3 of Enhanced CWEB. Watch!
23:34:34 <olsner> you have to time it carefully to interrupt the download before it's done! :)
23:34:36 <zzo38> It has many new features and fixed features from old one
23:36:13 <catseye> olsner: ... i think we live in different worlds of network access.
23:36:37 <catseye> we have this thing here called "AT&T" and it is truly amazingly bad.
23:37:13 <zzo38> You are expected to complain about version 0.3 of Enhanced CWEB now, so that I can fix it and also answer question, please.
23:37:18 -!- augur has joined.
23:38:05 <zzo38> catseye: Now you are also expected to complain about "AT&T"
23:38:41 <catseye> zzo38: To be quite honest, I tried reading regular CWEB a few weeks ago, and could barely handle it. I don't think I'm ready for Enhanced CWEB.
23:39:19 <olsner> catseye: you should get the thing called Internet instead, it's the dog's bollocks supposedly
23:39:58 <Vorpal> olsner, I once downloaded ubuntu over http, turned out it was corrupted, some bytes had just gone missing. Used it as a starting point for redownloading it over bittorrent, about half of the thing (the first half) was usable
23:40:05 <Vorpal> the rest was just off by a few bytes
23:40:11 <Vorpal> where those few bytes had gone missing
23:40:27 <zzo38> catseye: OK. Which parts could you not handle? And are there things you don't understand? Features you should want different from normal CWEB? etc?
23:40:46 <Vorpal> olsner, since then I download any iso I can over bittorrent rather than httpo
23:41:40 <zzo38> Vorpal: I suppose bittorrent is good for large files, that is one of the things bittorrent is intended to do; which is, large files (such as videos, but it can be used for Linux distributions, too)
23:42:01 <olsner> someone could build a wget-torrent that on-the-fly checks a http download from a fast mirror against a torrent file with hashes
23:42:02 <Vorpal> zzo38, well, large enough that a failed download hurts in this case
23:42:04 <zzo38> (In addition, Ubuntu contains some videos)
23:45:52 <zzo38> catseye: I would like to know which parts you don't like, I am curious (and perhaps to make a survey, too)
23:47:53 <catseye> zzo38: I guess in the most general sense, the way I look at literate programming is more like literate Haskell, than CWEB.
23:48:22 <Sgeo> I should look for my library card
23:48:25 <catseye> That is, it is English (or other natural language) text, mixed with code, but it is basically linear.
23:48:32 <Sgeo> There are some ebooks that my library has that I want to read
23:48:35 <catseye> CWEB is more like hypertext.
23:49:44 <catseye> btw, the CWEB source I was looking at is in: http://www.fourmilab.ch/fist/
23:50:03 <zzo38> catseye: Ah. Yes, I know about literate Haskell. I prefer Enhanced CWEB, though (but that is just me)
23:50:07 <catseye> Which is also maybe a bad example because the program is relatively small and easy to understand.
23:51:06 * Sgeo assumes that zzo38 is going to make an almost completely secure, easy-to-use OS that only he will end up using
23:51:17 * Sgeo quickly scratches easy-to-use off
23:51:30 <Sgeo> Easy for zzo38-usage >.>
23:52:06 <zzo38> OK. I also don't like some of the notation used in normal CWEB; Enhanced CWEB uses some different notations that are improvement in my opinion.
23:52:11 * Sgeo hopes that none of what he just said can be construed as offensive
23:53:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: It doesn't offensive to me (but many things are not offensive to me, since I support freedom of speech). Still, you might be correct about those statements.
23:53:45 <zzo38> (I don't know about if it is offensive to other people or not.)
23:54:52 <catseye> I fully support the enhancement of all software, even if it's not something I'll ever use.
23:56:00 <zzo38> Some of the different notations in Enhanced CWEB are: normal equal sign for == and left arrow for = and up/down arrow for ++ and -- and optional line numbers in small fonts and using typograpical quotes for string delimiters, and so on...
23:56:06 <zzo38> catseye: I agree with that too
23:56:33 <zzo38> catseye: And it is also the reason to make fork of software.
00:00:16 <Vorpal> zzo38, link to enhanced cweb?
00:00:59 <zzo38> Vorpal: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/cweb.zip http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/webmath.zip
00:01:11 <zzo38> (First link is the program itself; second link is the fonts)
00:02:13 <zzo38> Vorpal: Not yet. The gopher server does not automatically index, I make them manually, so it will take a while. Things are usually found on HTTP first. And then later, on both protocols.
00:02:41 <elliott> <catseye> elliott: Sigh. I am downloading the NetBSD 5.0.2 install ISO, via torrent.
00:02:45 <zzo38> However I plan to add it now, just because of reminded
00:02:59 <elliott> <zzo38> You are expected to complain about version 0.3 of Enhanced CWEB now, so that I can fix it and also answer question, please.
00:03:23 <Vorpal> zzo38, some gopher servers does index automatically though
00:04:12 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, but then you won't get descriptions and stuff. I do have a auto index script for the stuff in textfile/
00:04:24 <zzo38> (The stuff in textfile/ has no descriptions on its menus)
00:06:44 <catseye> elliott: You talked me into it! Well, not really.
00:06:59 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:07:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: I have now added it to gopher. It is now available over two protocols
00:09:31 <Vorpal> I have to agree with catseye about it though
00:09:56 <zzo38> (It is my intention that most of my stuff will be available over both protocols; however there is some things only useful for one or the other protocol, so I won't make everything listed on both)
00:14:06 <zzo38> Vorpal: Do you have the same complains about Enhanced CWEB that catseye? But catseye tried only normal CWEB at first?
00:16:42 <zzo38> Play solitaire card and win a big spider 2.9 times as big as you and then change their name to AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
00:18:21 <oerjan> ...which reminds me, it seems like the new neighbors possibly named their dog "Taxi".
00:18:29 <zzo38> (Even if you don't want to, I do want to. Even trade?)
00:20:25 <zzo38> oerjan: What have you heard? Have the neighbors told you they named their dog "Taxi"? Is that for normal reason or for confusing reason, or for the other reason?
00:20:47 * oerjan wants to respond "even so" but fears that might be considered acceptance of the trade
00:21:05 <oerjan> well one of their kids shouted that to it
00:21:50 <oerjan> the evidence isn't yet very reliable
00:22:52 <zzo38> oerjan: You cannot accept the trade. There is currently nothing to trade and anyways it is by computer, so we can't.
00:23:30 <zzo38> But if someone in near here win the big spider 2.9 times as big as me and change their name to AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! then if I win something else as big, it can trade with you if the other thing is the things you wanted.
00:24:24 <elliott> zzo38: I tried to use Enhanced CWEB but a spider 2.9 times as big as me mauled me.
00:24:30 <elliott> I am currently bleeding profusely and may die soon.
00:25:05 <oerjan> ...land arthropods don't get that big, anyway
00:26:03 <oerjan> though there was this giant sea scorpion or something in the paleozoic, i recall
00:26:05 <zzo38> elliott: Sorry. No refund, since the program doesn't cost any money, therefore the money cannot be refunded. But perhaps be more careful next time, please.
00:26:13 <elliott> zzo38: I'm suing you, then!
00:26:16 <elliott> catseye: still downloading?
00:26:20 <elliott> catseye: add some WEB SEEDS
00:26:33 <catseye> elliott: no, downloading is done. backing up still in progress. also noms
00:26:58 <elliott> catseye: how's the backup going, i don't want to miss the netbsd action
00:27:48 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurypterid
00:28:02 <zzo38> elliott: I can refund the cost of the bet that you win a big spider, but I cannot refund the cost of the Enhanced CWEB program. Sorry.
00:28:03 <catseye> elliott: any significant action of netbsd will probably be tomorrow.
00:28:21 <catseye> (test booting it off the usb stick)
00:28:23 <elliott> catseye: what timezone are you in?
00:29:28 <elliott> catseye: what local times are you usually doing crazy computer shit (i'm going to see if i'll MISS THE ACTION or not)
00:29:29 <oerjan> last weekend in october hasn't been yet
00:29:53 <zzo38> elliott: Fine, OK, but perhaps I can refund the bet. But you can't sue me for the program; the program is provided you are responsible for your own use.
00:29:59 <elliott> "12:29am Sunday (BST) - Time in London, United Kingdom"
00:30:06 <elliott> zzo38: i saw no such disclaimer
00:30:31 <oerjan> elliott: wait it doesn't distinguish DST?
00:30:45 <oerjan> it definitely should still be DST across europe
00:30:47 <elliott> oerjan: in britain we call it BST
00:30:50 <zzo38> elliott: Then you didn't look; it is on line seven.
00:30:51 <elliott> we have a different system i think
00:31:01 <elliott> oerjan: British Summer Time
00:31:03 <oerjan> um what do you call it in winter then?
00:31:17 <elliott> oerjan: we don't have DST in winter
00:31:40 <elliott> oerjan: *annoyingly* there is no acronym to refer to "whatever it is in britain right now"
00:31:44 <elliott> oerjan: so you get to say "British time" or whatever
00:31:51 <catseye> elliott: i have nothing much to do tomorrow. i don't know when i'll get up. with luck, i might be ready to install around noon, but who knows/
00:31:56 <zzo38> % It is distributed WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY, express or implied.
00:32:09 <elliott> catseye: that's 6am for me here! >_>
00:32:36 <zzo38> elliott: You can sue whoever you bet the big spider at.
00:32:37 <catseye> elliott: i'll wait til i see you, then. unless i get bored.
00:32:52 <catseye> i might try installing something else first if i don't see you.
00:32:58 <elliott> catseye: i will probably be on at 8-9 pm your time :P
00:33:24 <elliott> catseye: otoh, i will most likely be here at 10/11am your time (4/5am for me)
00:33:45 <zzo38> elliott: If you are as big as me, send a big spider to me and then I will figure out how much money to refund for that. (Please note this is not a refund for the computer program; but it is still a refund for the same amount of money; so why complain?)
00:34:06 <elliott> zzo38: How am I meant to post you a gigantic spider?
00:34:29 <Vorpal> <zzo38> Vorpal: Do you have the same complains about Enhanced CWEB that catseye? But catseye tried only normal CWEB at first? <-- so did I
00:35:22 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know how. Perhaps call the service that is specifically for that purpose.
00:35:36 <elliott> zzo38: are you *sure* you're not on lsd?
00:35:56 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, I am sure I am not on LSD. I only simulate it.
00:36:08 <pikhq> elliott: Aaah, time zones. How little sense they make.
00:36:25 <Vorpal> elliott, are you talking about one of his games?
00:36:33 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, I highly doubt you use GMT.
00:36:40 <elliott> pikhq: no, we actually do.
00:36:57 <elliott> pikhq: it is possible, I suppose, that all the GMT clocks secretly count leap seconds.
00:37:07 <pikhq> elliott: ... You use the mean solar time at the Royal Observatory?
00:37:09 <elliott> pikhq: but it is *definitely* universally referred to as GMT, no matter what
00:37:14 <zzo38> Vorpal: I think elliott is not, but I am talking about one of Damian Yerrick's game, called: Tetanus on Drugs, or, Lockjaw: The Overdose.
00:37:24 <elliott> pikhq: ok it seems to now be an alias
00:37:27 <elliott> Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) is a term originally referring to mean solar time at the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, London. It is arguably the same as Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) and when this is viewed as a time zone the name Greenwich Mean Time is especially used by bodies connected with the United Kingdom, such as the BBC World Service,[1] the Royal Navy, the Met Office and others.
00:37:28 <elliott> Before the introduction of UTC on 1 January 1972 Greenwich Mean Time (also known as Zulu time) was the same as Universal Time (UT) which is a standard astronomical concept used in many technical fields. Astronomers no longer use the term "Greenwich Mean Time".
00:37:28 <elliott> In the UK, GMT is the official time only during winter; during summer British Summer Time is used. GMT is the same as Western European Time.[2]
00:38:04 <elliott> pikhq: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Greenwich_clock.jpg
00:38:26 <zzo38> (You don't need to be drunk to play Tetris; the computer can make it drunk for you.)
00:38:33 <pikhq> elliott: Apparently, under the Interpretation Act, it is *literally* GMT.
00:38:34 <Vorpal> elliott, err, 5s of seconds?
00:38:35 <elliott> "British yard" "Two feet" "One foot" "six inches"
00:39:09 <Vorpal> elliott, those roman numerals
00:39:16 <pikhq> elliott: It is literally the mean solar time at the Royal Observatory.
00:39:27 <oerjan> elliott: you're living in the WET zone
00:39:35 <elliott> pikhq: ok, but *nobody* uses GMT to mean that.
00:39:44 <elliott> pikhq: not the BBC, not the Met Office...
00:40:05 <zzo38> I dislike using roman numbers for 24-hour clock; roman numbers should be used for 12-hour clock.
00:40:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, timezones actually make a lot of sense in that people want to be awake when it is daylight. But sure you could start using UTC everywhere and then refer to midday as 22:00 and such
00:40:08 <pikhq> elliott: But de jure, it is.
00:40:17 <elliott> pikhq: de jure yet even the government ignores it :P
00:40:20 <elliott> hey, like the US Constitution!
00:40:22 <Vorpal> elliott, oh a 24h clock
00:40:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: The specific implementations suck.
00:40:37 <elliott> Vorpal: there are timezones that aren't even UTC+n.5
00:40:43 <elliott> N hours and 12 minutes off
00:40:52 <elliott> China has one timezone all the way
00:40:53 <Vorpal> elliott, they are exceptions though
00:41:13 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes that was one of my ideas too; have no DST or anything like that, just change what is called the first hour of the day at DST, instead of changing what is called eight o'clock
00:41:14 <Vorpal> elliott, yes most countries suck
00:41:16 <elliott> proposal: instead of dividing the globe into discrete sections for timezones
00:41:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Daylight savings time, being *entirely* arbitrarily drawn, aaand bizarre offsets.
00:41:31 <elliott> i.e. moving one planck length changes your timezone proportionally
00:41:39 <Vorpal> elliott, that would be confusing for most people
00:41:50 <catseye> Driving west, your car's clock would slow down
00:41:51 <elliott> at 1 timezone second per second
00:41:56 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Timezones2010.png See, the lines chosen suck.
00:42:05 <zzo38> You could have UTC time and sundial time, if that is necessary.
00:42:13 <zzo38> We don't need DST.
00:42:30 <elliott> you know what really sucks?
00:42:33 <elliott> international waters aren't free.
00:42:36 <elliott> freedom of the seas my ass
00:42:40 <elliott> because of "international jurisdiction"
00:42:51 <elliott> if you do something we think's really horrible in international waters, we'll come and get you just because we can!
00:43:11 <pikhq> Note that it has nothing to do with the actual solar time in the region, and sometimes doesn't even vaguely correspond to political boundaries.
00:43:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes spain fails at it
00:43:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, Sweden manages quite okay
00:44:16 <pikhq> Why in the *world* is Spain on UTC+1?
00:44:18 <Vorpal> heck I almost live where it is correct
00:45:48 <pikhq> I happen to live right along the UTC+7 meridian. It's a bit of a rarity for North Americans to live close to the meridian for their time zone...
00:45:48 <elliott> 12:00 is whenever the sun rises, no matter what :D
00:45:54 <elliott> 11:59 gets extended until the sun rises
00:46:24 <pikhq> Look at Canada: the UTC+6 meridian happens to be the *border* of the UTC+6 time zone there!
00:46:32 <pikhq> Well, for a decent chunk of it.
00:47:46 <Vorpal> elliott, you are aiming for awkward aren't you?
00:48:07 <elliott> Vorpal: would fit in nicely with eternal september though
00:48:31 <pikhq> Iceland's UTC+0 but is in the ideal UTC+1 and UTC+2 zones...
00:48:46 <elliott> "It's September 65257, 1993, 11:59:7889231."
00:49:08 <pikhq> Oh, and China. Ideal UTC+5 over to ideal UTC+9, but it's all on UTC+8.
00:49:19 <Vorpal> elliott, wait there is one place offset 14?
00:49:29 <elliott> pick a number, it's there.
00:49:35 <elliott> catseye: how's that backup doing :| you are my entertainment
00:49:38 <Vorpal> elliott, 14 > 12 though
00:50:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, actually Sweden is on +2 atm, due to DST
00:51:48 <elliott> catseye: HOW IS IT GOIIIING
00:52:00 <pikhq> And God, the US has so many time zones.
00:52:10 <pikhq> It exists in 11 time zones.
00:52:37 <elliott> Yo momma's so fat, she's in 11 different time zones.
00:52:52 <oerjan> the sun never sets on the US empire
00:52:59 <elliott> pikhq: wait 11? time.gov suggests fewer
00:53:43 <pikhq> elliott: There's two US islands without *legally* defined timezones; they thus are defined by nautical time.
00:54:01 <pikhq> Baker Island & Howland Island are UTC-12, and Wake Island is UTC+12.
00:54:05 <elliott> pikhq: speaking of nautical lament the nonexistence of the freedom of the seas
00:55:59 <catseye> elliott: It's going. I have backed up my windows partition (with exception of some files in the Windows directory that it hangs on copying. I just decided I do not need to retain my Windows directory. Seems sane enough.) I am now copying over my files from Ubuntu
00:56:11 <elliott> catseye: not just copying ~?
00:56:25 <catseye> Most of ~, yes. I think that's all
00:56:40 <catseye> not the whole ubuntu install, that's... no
00:57:04 <catseye> (for windows, though, you're never really sure where it's saving your stuff)
00:58:17 <elliott> catseye: if i were you i'd put the netbsd manual on another usb stick (assuming you have two usb ports...)
00:58:32 <elliott> btw iirc the netbsd installer cd has no option to go to a console, but ^C does it
00:58:40 <elliott> (the software selection is very limited though, i'd just install it)
00:58:52 <elliott> catseye: at least the networking stuff was a bit "wut" when i tried in a vm
00:59:53 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that has been mentioned before. (1) we've been here since december 2002, freenode can go fuck itself,
01:00:04 <elliott> and (2) nobody owns esotericness, so nobody has a real claim to #esoteric, only ##esoteric
01:00:10 <catseye> I OWN ESOTERIC well kind of
01:00:19 <elliott> since nobody's being, or can possibly be, disadvantaged
01:00:27 <elliott> catseye: yeah you invented brainfuck
01:01:02 <elliott> catseye: do you realise that by coming in here and acting all normal you've ruined your deity^Wcelebrity status :)
01:01:16 <catseye> not that it was an extremely un-obvious choice
01:01:42 <elliott> catseye: well at least among the sillier esotericers (i.e. most of us)
01:02:27 <elliott> catseye: i'm pretty sure everyone was convinced you had a complete understanding of what the funge-98 specification was meant to say, and there was only one possible interpretation
01:02:30 <pikhq> Hah. In Alaska, the days between October 6, 1867 and October 18, 1867 never existed.
01:02:34 <elliott> IF ONLY WE COULD MEET THE MAN
01:03:00 <oerjan> THE DAMN RUSSIANS STOLE THEM
01:03:23 <elliott> pikhq: "The British calender act of 1751 / declared the day after Wednesday / September 2nd, 1752 / Would be Thursday, September 14"
01:03:29 <catseye> elliott: glad to be of disillusioning service, i guess
01:03:48 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4Zf1eyWYFs
01:03:51 <Vorpal> <elliott> catseye: i'm pretty sure everyone was convinced you had a complete understanding of what the funge-98 specification was meant to say, and there was only one possible interpretation <-- I suspected it was not the whole truth, what with the behaviour of t
01:03:55 <elliott> (the song that quote's from)
01:04:05 <pikhq> The US purchase of Alaska became effective October 6, 1867, 24:00:00 local time. In doing so, Alaska switched from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian, *and* went to the other side of the International Date Line.
01:04:20 <elliott> pikhq: julian -> gregorian was the name for that quoted change too
01:04:24 <elliott> but lol @ international date line
01:04:52 <catseye> Copying 14x,xxx files, one hour twenty-eight minutes remaining
01:05:07 <pikhq> Oh, and it went from Friday to Friday.
01:05:40 <pikhq> Yes, the day after Friday, October 6 was Friday, October 18.
01:05:59 <elliott> that would make better lyrics
01:06:01 <elliott> catseye: all the way across the sky?
01:07:51 <elliott> *Would be Thursday, September 14 / 1752"
01:08:11 <pikhq> Wow. Many Eastern Orthodox churches still use the Julian calendar.
01:08:20 <pikhq> Because the Gregorian was invented by a Catholic Pope.
01:08:36 <elliott> catseye: not recommended over netbsd, that's for sure. i'm considering installing it myself now
01:08:42 <elliott> sure it's ports but... urggh
01:09:07 <elliott> catseye: oh btw pkg_add doesn't work out of the box in netbsd. you have to set a mirror environment variable. it's explained in the big ol' manual ... you probably know all this, i'm just relaying some issues i had
01:09:11 <catseye> Because I'm going to need an understudy in case NetBSD gets in a traffic accident
01:09:23 <pikhq> Same reason Protestant countries in Europe were reluctant to switch.
01:09:31 <elliott> catseye: You /could/ install 10.10, but you'd want to start hating it and aiming to replace it quickly.
01:09:36 <elliott> Otherwise you become complacent.
01:09:45 <catseye> elliott: I know nothing. But I might be able to use my awesome BSD intuitions developed in previous escapades
01:10:10 <elliott> catseye: "Also, FreeBSD offers a nice alternative interface to NetBSD Manual Pages."
01:10:29 <elliott> catseye: Put this on another USB stick: http://netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/netbsd.html
01:10:35 <elliott> That's the entire NetBSD guide in one HTML file.
01:10:48 <catseye> elliott: ports kind of is awful. pkgsrc is kinda sorta ok but also has same root in awful as ports. what pkg manager for Kitten?
01:10:53 <elliott> Mathnerd314: nothing OpenBSD is the best
01:11:04 <elliott> catseye: it's the bees bollocks. wait...
01:11:10 <catseye> elliott: WHAT UNIX SYSTEM AM I SUPPOSED TO MAN THAT AT
01:11:37 <elliott> catseye: btw you have to download pkgsrc in netbsd :D
01:11:52 <elliott> seriously recommend downloading that html file. i had quite a few "wtf" moments
01:11:56 <elliott> and it always explained them
01:12:02 <pikhq> elliott: ... It gets worse.
01:12:14 <pikhq> elliott: They use a *Revised* Julian Calendar.
01:12:14 <elliott> catseye: pkg(8) is basically the most awesome package manager you can imagine, ever.
01:12:23 <pikhq> elliott: Sorry, *many* of them do.
01:12:29 <catseye> gnome desktop froze for a moment
01:12:38 <pikhq> elliott: Move the calendar back 13 days and then use a slightly different leap year rule.
01:12:42 <elliott> pikhq: "In 2800 the two calendars will diverge again, though more slowly than the Julian and Gregorian do."
01:12:43 <catseye> halfway bwteen two virtual desktops
01:13:01 <elliott> catseye: totally install xfce next time. or. maybe assemble your own if you're crazy enough
01:13:05 <elliott> from scattered window managers
01:13:11 <elliott> actually what WM did you use when you used bsd?
01:13:22 <catseye> elliott: I used blackbox most of the time
01:13:27 <elliott> coppro was so promising before he discovered all that shitty software everyone loves
01:13:32 <elliott> catseye: i can't stand the *boxes
01:13:37 <elliott> catseye: they're so... "1337 hax0r"
01:14:06 <catseye> it was not something i was fond of, just something that worked
01:14:09 <elliott> coppro: amend will never forgive you
01:14:19 <coppro> elliott: if you ever finish it, I'm willing to try it
01:14:23 <elliott> catseye: pekwm is a pretty nice minimalish-but-works-normally WM
01:14:28 <coppro> in the meanwhile, I will be happy powerusing with vim and xmonad
01:14:34 <catseye> elliott: i will totally go to a tiling wm if i can
01:14:47 <elliott> catseye: nice idea in theory. but trust me. they're terribly designed
01:14:48 <coppro> tiling wms increase efficiency
01:14:51 <coppro> it's as simple as that
01:14:54 <catseye> i try that at work (ON WINDOWS 7 -- it's a blast, man)
01:15:06 <elliott> coppro: you're either trolling or stupid enough to think making an assertion like that makes it true without justification
01:15:09 <coppro> elliott: terribly designed in what sense?
01:15:09 <catseye> coppro: they CAN SOMETIMES if THINGS WORK
01:15:24 <elliott> catseye: modern tiling wms - "Stop wasting time on window management! Waste time pressing our hotkeys instead because it never gets it right the first time."
01:15:31 <elliott> catseye: if you're hardcore try http://www.jfc.org.uk/software/lwm.html
01:15:44 <coppro> elliott: you've make some great assertions without justification. I thought I'd join the party
01:15:59 <elliott> coppro: i was having a conversation with catseye clearly expressing an opinion
01:16:01 <coppro> catseye: I have had no issues getting xmonad to work. I have no experience with other tiling wms.
01:16:03 <catseye> elliott: I just want a billion jillion virtual desktops and intuitive navigation between them and the ability to make some things like chat windows highly notifivisible.
01:16:14 <Vorpal> elliott, you dislike tiling wms?
01:16:18 <elliott> catseye: lwm has exactly 1 desktop, so :P
01:16:23 <coppro> 20:14 < elliott> catseye: nice idea in theory. but trust me. they're terribly designed
01:16:28 <elliott> Vorpal: no -- my favourite WM is a tiling WM. unfortunately nobody has implemented it yet
01:16:35 <elliott> coppro: "catseye:", "trust me" (i.e. my opinion)
01:16:37 <Vorpal> elliott, what about dwm?
01:16:43 <elliott> maybe i'll take it to /msg instead.
01:16:48 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't say suckless software sucks!
01:16:53 <elliott> Vorpal: dwm is cool, sure, but i wouldn't use it :P
01:16:58 <coppro> elliott: "trust me" does not sound like an opinion. It sounds like "I am right and will not waste time explaining it"
01:17:02 <elliott> Vorpal: dwm is at least saner than most tiling WMs
01:17:09 <elliott> coppro: and "literally" often means "NOT LITERALLY AT ALL"
01:17:16 <elliott> WHAT IS IT WHAT IS IT WHAAAAT
01:17:23 <coppro> elliott: I mean from normal usage
01:17:28 <coppro> that is what people use "trust me" to mean
01:17:34 <elliott> catseye: no, it's me mostly agreeing with Vorpal's joke and it's coppro picking stupid nits
01:17:36 <coppro> regardless of its denotative meaning
01:17:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I will start using figuratively to mean "as written"
01:17:42 <elliott> coppro: only idiots. i hope you realise i'm not an idiot
01:18:05 <coppro> elliott: uh, no, that's the standard connotative meaning of the phrase
01:18:08 <coppro> at least where I come from
01:18:19 <elliott> coppro: "trust me" basically means nothing really
01:18:27 <catseye> So, at work, I use a tiling "window manager" for Windows called "bug.n" (great name huh), and it *kind of* works. But, Windows' window GUIs are rarely designed with tiling in mind.
01:18:42 <catseye> So I will just reiterate what I said about a billion jillion virtual desktops.
01:19:13 <elliott> catseye: do you use subpixel smoothing? if so be prepared to stop doing so; other stuff doesn't ship with the patched freetype that makes it non-hideous
01:19:19 <elliott> and i mean hideous (blue. everywhere.)
01:19:29 <elliott> catseye: the website is a bit strange
01:19:31 <elliott> A fork of dwm 5.8, a dynamic window manager for X, incuding the flextile patch.
01:19:32 <elliott> Written inAutoHotkey script
01:19:32 <elliott> Operating systemMicrosoft Windows
01:19:39 <elliott> apparently fork means rewrite loosely based on
01:19:42 <elliott> catseye: do you use ubuntu?
01:19:55 <elliott> right you don't, no need to worry
01:19:55 <catseye> OH! AutoHotKey script is a FANTASTIC language, just like NSIS Installer language is FANTASTIC.
01:21:01 <elliott> coppro: so how goes my article publication HUH
01:21:25 <pikhq> It sucks being sick.
01:21:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:21:51 <elliott> catseye: oh btw the difference between FFSv1 and FFSv2 is that FFSv1 uses 32-bit inodes and FFSv2 doesn't. so if you have a partition >1 Tb... :P also only FFSv2 has journaling. it might be worth using just for that
01:22:00 <elliott> UFSv2 = FFSv2, and none of the other filesystems are worth using
01:22:10 <elliott> catseye: THAT IS WHAT I HAVE LEARNED.
01:22:40 <coppro> you know I'm not an editor, and you're getting annoying.
01:22:54 <coppro> (read: I may /ignore you if you ask again)
01:23:05 <pikhq> elliott: Gentoo's had a patent violation USE flag for ages now. :)
01:23:17 <elliott> coppro: SORRY I WILL REFRAIN FROM JOKING IN FUTURE PLEASE FORGIVE ME
01:23:23 <elliott> pikhq: of course it can be done it's just more of a pain
01:23:35 <elliott> pikhq: and if you're not crazy like you or me, it's easier just to turn it off
01:23:46 <coppro> pikhq: yes it does suck :(
01:23:54 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah. That sort of thing happens to be one of the few things that I genuinely *absolutely adore* about Gentoo.
01:23:55 <coppro> I got food poisoning last week. :( What's wrong with you?
01:24:11 <elliott> pikhq: USE flag proliferation is irritating
01:24:16 <catseye> yeah i do not have anything > 1 tb but thanks for letting me know
01:24:20 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: i don't know and i really don't care
01:24:24 <elliott> catseye: yes but journaling is nice
01:24:27 <Mathnerd314> coppro, pikhq: for me, being sick means I get to stay home and do fun stuff :-)
01:24:28 <pikhq> You are given the ability to flip off patent and trademark laws within the constraints of the package manager.
01:24:35 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: It's the weekend.
01:24:42 <elliott> pikhq: the patent is only valid in the us
01:24:45 <pikhq> coppro: Like a flu or something.
01:24:57 <elliott> it's really just all the US users who are breaking the law
01:25:05 <elliott> catseye: Netcraft confirms it.
01:25:07 <pikhq> elliott: Said patent expired, anyways.
01:25:08 <GreaseMonkey> Kirk McKusick and Poul-Henning Kamp extended the FreeBSD FFS and UFS layers to support a new variant, called UFS2, which adds 64-bit block pointers (allowing volumes to grow up to 8 zettabytes), variable-sized blocks (similar to extents), extended flag fields, additional 'birthtime' stamps, extended attribute support and POSIX1.e ACLs. UFS2 became the default UFS version starting with FreeBSD 5.0.
01:25:11 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: well, maybe it'll last until monday or tuesday
01:25:25 <elliott> catseye: FFSv1 is still the default NetBSD filesystem
01:25:36 <elliott> catseye: but it's probably worth going FFSv2 just for the journaling
01:25:46 <coppro> Mathnerd314: that's not sick
01:26:01 <coppro> that's society being hypochondriac
01:26:08 <elliott> catseye: although http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/PH_Kamp.jpg that tshirt is dangerously furry, do you want to risk another AROS?!
01:26:15 <elliott> HE CO-INVENTED FFSV1 BE VERY AFRAID
01:26:27 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I'm too sick to genuinely *enjoy* doing stuff.
01:26:33 <elliott> catseye: I WANT TO HEAR STORIES
01:26:39 <pikhq> Well, anything that requires thought. Or action.
01:26:45 <elliott> catseye: although i have him down as a cool dude
01:26:46 <catseye> maybe i will just not use computers from now on
01:26:49 <coppro> Mathnerd314: hahahahaha
01:26:57 <elliott> catseye: freebsd jails, Varnish cache, popularised "bikeshedding"??
01:27:06 <coppro> Mathnerd314: have you ever had a flu?
01:27:20 <elliott> catseye: what's wrong with him, honest question
01:27:27 <catseye> elliott: he is probably not a bad guy, he is just a vortex of drama
01:27:51 <elliott> catseye: apparently he only contributed bits of the FFSv2 *implementation* SO YOU SHOULD BE FINE
01:27:52 <catseye> really there are other freebsd'ers who i would be pointing fingers at
01:27:57 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Sleeping is somewhat difficult when you have difficulty breathing.
01:27:59 <elliott> or you could just stick with the defaults
01:28:06 <catseye> if it came to "problem personalities"
01:28:08 <elliott> and just hope it never crashes leaving you wanting journalling
01:28:15 <GreaseMonkey> <catseye> FAT12 or nothing, baby! <-- the only real file system i've ever coded a driver for
01:28:19 <elliott> catseye: colin percival is fun, i like him, despite his ego being unspeakably immense
01:28:29 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: You could probably get FAT16 or FAT32 going easily from there.
01:28:41 <catseye> i remember when colin percival was accepted as a committer. he was SOOOOOOOOOOO EXCITED
01:28:55 <elliott> catseye: well he's probably aspergers or something.
01:29:04 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: No, FAT32 is just FAT with 32 instead of 16.
01:29:15 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: The long filename stuff is a FAT extension that works on all variants.
01:29:26 <catseye> elliott: i ... must have been around 2001
01:29:32 <Mathnerd314> coppro, pikhq: my experience has always been that lying in bed, hiding under the covers, it's warm and humid and dark enough to a) stop my nose and b) let me use my computer
01:29:54 <GreaseMonkey> pikhq: no if you've looked at FAT32 you would have noticed that it uses more than just the first block for info and treats the root directory differently.
01:30:28 <catseye> he had just presented his paper on an exploit based on... i don't remember
01:30:34 <elliott> catseye: he did a reddit "ask me questions" type thing a while back, someone asked him whether he thought he'd change the world and he said that he'd basically accepted that he would end up doing so no matter what
01:30:47 <elliott> yeah he's... he... timing, yeah
01:31:01 <coppro> Mathnerd314: if you tried that with a proper flu, you'd have a computer covered in vomit
01:31:06 <pikhq> Oh, it does have another structure.
01:31:09 <coppro> and you'd still feel awful
01:31:18 <coppro> (ever had hot-cold cycles?)
01:31:19 <elliott> it runs on puters. also vomit
01:31:22 <catseye> but if we're gossiping, then, oh yes, dag-erling smorgrav and kris whatshisname, THEY made the freebsd experience ENTIRELY pleasant.
01:31:34 <GreaseMonkey> Below are years 2004 and 2005 public logs provided by clog (an IRC channel logging "bot") for #esoteric on the Freenode (formerly known as Open Projects (formerly known as Linpeople)) IRC network.
01:31:34 <Vorpal> <GreaseMonkey> it can also be safely ignored <-- what exactly is vfat
01:31:46 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, iirc fat file systems list as vfat when I mount them
01:32:05 <Mathnerd314> coppro: usually I can tell at least 10-20s before I'm going to vomit
01:32:06 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: The FAT32 information structure seems pretty simple.
01:32:19 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, can't be ignored safely then :P
01:32:23 <coppro> Mathnerd314: then you have not had a flu
01:32:23 <GreaseMonkey> pikhq: yeah, but it is a little more than just "change 16 to 32"
01:32:40 <pikhq> Whereas FAT16 is just that.
01:32:47 <elliott> <GreaseMonkey> latest log: 10.10.16
01:32:49 <GreaseMonkey> Vorpal: actually you can ignore them, i think it's a weird combination of the disk label flag and some other flag
01:33:09 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, will mess up the fs if you move stuff around, no?
01:33:21 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: that's because hcf jumped off a bridge in 2005
01:33:23 <elliott> or rather stopped maintaining clog
01:33:24 <catseye> I should try this unetbootin
01:33:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: It was horribly hacked such that if used with an implementation that doesn't know about it, you just get 8.3 filenames.
01:33:37 <elliott> catseye: you can't if you're backing up can you?
01:34:15 <elliott> i know nothing about FSes -- can a file be multiple inodes?
01:34:21 <elliott> i.e. non-continuous across the disk?
01:35:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: It adds entries into the directory entry that are marked volume label, system, hidden, read only, *and* point to completely empty files.
01:35:22 <catseye> elliott: gonna see how it works. i can create the install usb on one port while backing up? i think?
01:35:31 <elliott> catseye: yes. but not test it obviously
01:35:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which makes ignorant filesystem drivers just ignore them.
01:35:45 <elliott> catseye: just open the program, put the ISO in, check that the ISO box is the chosen one
01:35:51 <elliott> catseye: pick the USB drive device
01:36:00 <elliott> catseye: oh if you already have stuff on the stick just delete the files
01:36:22 <elliott> catseye: (don't zero out the stick, it needs a fat partition to work)
01:36:30 <elliott> it *won't* automatically delete the files for you
01:36:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:36:35 <catseye> using newwww stick for nwo
01:37:00 <elliott> catseye: OTOH this means that you can put http://netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/netbsd.html and http://netbsd.org/docs/pkgsrc/index.html on before or after using unetbootin
01:37:10 <elliott> although you might have to mount it manually afterwards
01:37:13 <elliott> actually i'd just put them on another stick
01:37:19 <pikhq> Oh, and the long filenames are always UTF-16, even if the system code page isn't Unicode.
01:37:37 <pikhq> (normal FAT filenames are based on the system code page)
01:38:05 <catseye> one is already on my other "main" stick. the pkgsrc index, i don't have, might come in handy
01:38:43 <catseye> elliott: um that's just the toc
01:39:01 <elliott> "The pkgsrc guide - for users and developers of pkgsrc, the centralized package build and management system . Available formats for download: PostScript and PDF"
01:39:06 <elliott> postscript and pdf won't help ofc
01:39:32 <elliott> catseye: http://www.netbsd.org/docs/pkgsrc/pkgsrc.html
01:40:18 <GreaseMonkey> did you know that the ISO standard for PDF is downloadable in the PDF format
01:40:28 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: that's not really that amusing
01:40:34 <elliott> it's not like you're going to try and implement pdf without a reader :)
01:40:44 <elliott> although it is a self-describing document
01:43:03 <elliott> catseye: anyway yes, if you get it working i will be very happy and consider switching myself
01:43:13 <elliott> catseye: i think if you can get networking working you should be good to go.
01:43:27 <Gregor> Give him the stick DON'T GIVE HIM THE STICK
01:43:47 <catseye> 5Cwow badly machined USB stick
01:44:44 <catseye> elliott: Was a bitch to "open" it so the USB connector is out; and when it's out, it's crooked
01:44:50 <elliott> (2,147,483,648 bytes, on the other hand, is 2 GiB.)
01:44:59 <elliott> ais definitely knows this.
01:45:14 <catseye> let's just hope it works ok
01:45:18 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: your history is laughably inaccurate.
01:45:27 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: gigawatt. gigahertz.
01:45:35 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: the prefix is G.
01:45:37 <elliott> computing wasn't there first.
01:45:46 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: PREFIXES DO NOT CHANGE DEPENDING ON THE UNIT
01:45:49 <elliott> that's the whole POINT of prefixes!
01:45:52 <GreaseMonkey> yeah, but when computing came out, division was EXPENSIVE
01:45:54 <Sgeo> Isn't there something with HD manufacturers using the Non GiB?
01:46:09 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: it's nothing to do with division
01:46:11 <elliott> you're just making shit up
01:46:17 <elliott> it's because memory is addressed in silicon
01:46:23 <elliott> and our CPUs are based on bits
01:46:27 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: see http://www.tarsnap.com/GB-why.html
01:46:31 <elliott> This is all a conspiracy by hard drive manufacturers who want to cheat us out of the disk space we're paying for!
01:46:31 <elliott> We all love good conspiracy theories... but really, this isn't about evil megacorporations trying to cheat you. Hard drive prices are determined almost entirely by competition between manufacturers, so if hard drives were labelled in GiB instead of being labelled in GB, we'd be paying the same number of dollars for the same number of bytes anyway — if this really was a global conspiracy, it would be one of the dumbest conspiracies ever.
01:46:46 <catseye> elliott: you will consider *switching*? heh... ok
01:46:54 <elliott> catseye: wait, what's so amusing?
01:46:58 <elliott> catseye: i mean from ubuntu to netbsd
01:47:09 <GreaseMonkey> i say metric GB when i mean they use the SI unit or something
01:47:21 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: I'm not going to shut up just because you can't think of a response.
01:47:32 <elliott> Especially not after you invented about 10 explanations because I told you the previous ones were wrong.
01:47:40 <Sgeo> elliott, I think the idea is that it's more of a psychological thing
01:47:48 <elliott> Your laptop uses 2048 non-metric mebibytes.
01:48:03 <elliott> Sgeo: seriously. there is no conspiracy. there is no trickery.
01:48:07 <catseye> elliott: i just never considered running netbsd as a "main" OS before, i guess
01:48:18 <elliott> catseye: it's what you're crazy enough to be doing, isn't it?
01:48:21 <GreaseMonkey> <elliott> Your laptop uses 2048 non-metric mebibytes. <-- NOW you're wrong
01:48:38 <catseye> well, with any luck, dual-boot windows and netbsd. so i have an "out" of sorts
01:48:41 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: What? It really doesn't.
01:48:50 <elliott> You're crazy. RAM is sold in powers of two.
01:49:13 <Sgeo> Likely to be reported by OSes as MB
01:49:22 <elliott> 2 GiB of RAM = 2048 MiB of RAM = 2'147'483'648 bytes
01:49:30 <catseye> and each one multiplies the space by 2
01:49:30 <GreaseMonkey> it wouldn't change the number of address lines
01:50:03 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: they. really. don't.
01:50:14 <elliott> hell, even see that dreaded page again:
01:50:17 <elliott> [[You're right: If you buy a "1GB" stick of RAM, it will hold 2^30 bytes of data.]]
01:50:27 <Sgeo> http://thanksants.com/alise
01:50:46 <elliott> Thanks Elliott... Thelliott.
01:50:53 <Sgeo> If by metric MB you mean 10^whatever bytes... you're insane
01:51:13 <GreaseMonkey> if this were measured in GiB that would be 1.9GiB
01:51:23 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: when it says KB
01:51:30 <elliott> because that's what most things mean by KB
01:51:41 <elliott> 2001772 KiB = 2049814528 bytes
01:51:59 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: ok, something is rounding it.
01:52:04 <elliott> you *do not* get RAM in that size
01:52:09 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: what reports that?
01:52:16 <elliott> it may be reserving some RAM for itself
01:52:33 <Vorpal> could be used by graphics circuits
01:52:36 <GreaseMonkey> <elliott> GreaseMonkey: ok, i'm at risk of being wrong
01:52:55 <Vorpal> elliott, not most likely, it would use an even number of MB
01:53:08 <Vorpal> elliott, most probably it would
01:53:10 <elliott> Vorpal: it's more likely than RAM is being sold in non-powers of two, which *does* *not* *happen*
01:53:14 <elliott> Vorpal: bios reserves some too iirc
01:53:40 <GreaseMonkey> elliott: they sell flash memory in non powers of two
01:53:48 <GreaseMonkey> what's to stop them selling RAM in non powers of two?
01:53:58 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: no they don't
01:54:01 <elliott> at least not that i've seen
01:54:06 <elliott> if they do, it'll just have some inaccessible
01:54:09 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: ok, here's a challenge
01:54:12 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: http://newegg.com/
01:54:15 <elliott> find me some non-power-of-two RAM
01:54:24 <Vorpal> elliott, my system have a total of 1502 MiB RAM on my desktop. Not shared with gpu since gpu has it's own
01:54:30 <fizzie> You can look at the physical memory map in dmesg; there's all kinds of messiness there.
01:54:48 <elliott> Vorpal: so what you said contradicts nothing i said :)
01:54:52 <Vorpal> elliott, nominally it has 1.5 GB/GiB
01:54:59 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: dear god, he doesn't, i was there when you said it
01:55:00 <Sgeo> What happens if you put in a 512MiB stick and a 1GiB stick?
01:55:10 <GreaseMonkey> and while ais can get annoying i have more respect for him than you
01:55:56 <GreaseMonkey> or should i revert to "drivemakers' gigabytes"?
01:56:20 <elliott> it is rare for most people in this channel to be abject morons who grasp at straws and use ideas of respect to dismiss facts.
01:56:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it does not seem to be a power of two
01:56:44 <GreaseMonkey> elliott: no, you're just insanely loud and opinionated
01:56:53 <Vorpal> elliott, should be 1512 really
01:56:53 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: only when people like you make sweeping statements
01:56:57 <elliott> i like to annoy them. works doesn't it?
01:57:25 <elliott> Vorpal: something's reserved somewhere obviously
01:57:30 <elliott> it's rather non-exact in my experience
01:57:37 <elliott> but the ram is still always sold as powers of two, which is the point
01:57:48 <Vorpal> elliott, "sold as" != "is" ;P
01:57:49 <elliott> a "2G" stick of ram is always 2 GiB
01:57:56 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: oh seriously, fuck off.
01:58:01 <Vorpal> elliott, even memtest doesn't think I have exactly 1512 MB
01:58:12 <elliott> Vorpal: but i'm talking about sold as here.
01:58:18 <catseye> Vorpal | MemTotal: 1539008 kB
01:58:25 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
01:58:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I swear to never be awful to you ever again. Now I know how bad it could be.
01:58:47 <elliott> Vorpal: You are an angel of perfection.
01:59:29 <catseye> I seem to have MemTotal: 1023972 kB
01:59:41 <elliott> catseye: were you asking what pkg(8) was before btw?
01:59:44 <elliott> i can explain the basic design if you want
01:59:51 <catseye> but there is no guarantee that is all of the ram in the system, is there?
01:59:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I would force you to watch graphs of statistics about panoramas all day long :P
02:00:00 <catseye> just the total that the OS sees
02:00:09 <GreaseMonkey> how would i find out how much RAM was allocated to the GPU?
02:00:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Lovely. Sounds wonderful. I'll look at it with my 4 GiB of non-metric RAM.
02:00:28 <elliott> catseye: are you sure you want the whole boring story??? 'cuz i totally have it lined up man
02:01:07 <Vorpal> elliott, that would reserve some memory
02:01:09 <catseye> elliott: right now might not be the BEST time for me to absorb it, but, package managers have always been an annoyance to me, so i will probably recognize a lot of it.
02:01:19 <Vorpal> elliott, while BIOS stuff would be visible to the OS
02:02:14 <elliott> catseye: Packages are built on layers of abstraction; a package for a "typical" autotools thing will just use some autotools library and be maybe 10-15 lines. More complicated stuff would be longer, obviously. Because, you know, building on abstractions. This is CS 101.
02:02:24 <elliott> catseye: We have "metapackages" -- actually just packages but it's a semi-useful distinction.
02:02:29 <elliott> catseye: Basically packages can take arguments/options.
02:02:33 <catseye> well, ports builds on abstractions and is STUPID
02:02:39 <elliott> catseye: Also every package can be given --arch and be compiled for that architecture.
02:02:46 <catseye> because its language is MAKE, fuckin MAKE man!
02:02:59 <elliott> It gets put into /arch/THEARCH-netbsd-netbsd/ as a root.
02:03:13 <elliott> e.g. /arch/i686-netbsd-netbsd/bin/ls
02:03:18 <Vorpal> <elliott> catseye: Also every package can be given --arch and be compiled for that architecture. <-- surely there are some arch specific packages?
02:03:20 <elliott> Obviously if you have x86_64 you can run this without issues.
02:03:27 <elliott> Vorpal: There is a list of supported architectures you can set in each package.
02:03:33 <elliott> catseye: Something like a cross-compiler.
02:03:39 <elliott> catseye: A Canadian cross would look like this:
02:04:06 <elliott> # pkg ins --arch=ppc --build=arm --target=x86
02:04:20 <Vorpal> elliott, no package name?
02:04:26 <elliott> # pkg ins gcc-cross --arch=ppc --build=arm --target=x86
02:04:48 <elliott> catseye: This would mean "on a PPC architecture (this will work if you have some sort of automatic PPC emulator configured), build a gcc cross compiler that is an ARM executable, that spits out x86 executables."
02:04:51 <Vorpal> elliott, can you do canadian cross for llvm hm
02:04:55 <elliott> obviously normally you'd omit --arch because...
02:05:01 <elliott> well because it only controls the build process
02:05:05 <elliott> so usually you'd want it to be native
02:05:07 <catseye> cool unetbootin supports floppy i could make befos boot usb!
02:05:07 <elliott> anyway that'd then install in
02:05:15 <elliott> /arch/arm-netbsd-netbsd/...
02:05:22 <Vorpal> elliott, that isn't what --build means iirc?
02:05:27 <elliott> Vorpal: i forget. whatever. --host.
02:05:31 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't --build the system used to build the cross compiler
02:05:36 <Vorpal> --host is where it runs
02:05:38 <elliott> Vorpal: shut up you get the idea :D
02:05:39 <elliott> catseye: Also, we use the package manager for system configuration.
02:05:41 <Vorpal> and --target is what it compiles to
02:05:49 <elliott> catseye: for instance: say we have some default X configuration files that start "the default window manager".
02:05:58 <catseye> elliott: this does not seem to be addressing my own particular pet peeves but ok
02:05:59 <elliott> catseye: # pkg ins default-x11-wm --wm=pekwm
02:06:08 <elliott> catseye: this would conflict with all other arguments to --wm so you could only have one at a time
02:06:12 <elliott> catseye: so we do a lot of configuration with this
02:06:19 <elliott> catseye: i probably have addressed your peeves -- name them
02:06:20 <catseye> wait the last might part i'm not sure
02:06:22 <Vorpal> catseye, what are your pet peeves then?
02:06:23 <elliott> i'll tell you if i've thought of them
02:06:58 <catseye> package managers are imperative stomp stomp there it's installed should be declarative what packages ARE or ARE NOT on system
02:07:14 <Vorpal> catseye, oh, you mean like that nixos thingy?
02:07:19 <elliott> catseye: there will be a slight functional bent to it. of course.
02:07:31 <Vorpal> elliott, why not as far?
02:07:33 <catseye> i have never heard of nixos and will soon accuse you of MAKING it UP
02:07:34 <elliott> catseye: it will be more functional than you might think though
02:07:41 <elliott> Vorpal: because i want to maintain a distro, not an entirely new configuration of everything :D
02:07:48 <elliott> Vorpal: same reason i'm not sandboxing everything
02:08:01 <Vorpal> catseye, it isn't made up
02:08:35 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, when do you think this will be implemented? Before or after DNF?
02:08:58 <elliott> Vorpal: as soon as school stops taking up 90% of my time. so, maybe you can expect work to start in the half-term holiday.
02:09:11 <elliott> if i don't end up watching youtube for the entire duration
02:09:21 <elliott> Vorpal: it's deliberately not quite as ambitious as my real goals
02:09:25 <elliott> merely because ubuntu is irritating.
02:09:27 <Vorpal> elliott, and when do we get the capability-based-or-whatever-os-the-current-fad elliottOS?
02:09:45 <elliott> Vorpal: hey elliottOS is not faddish, it's more curmudgeonly, most of the stuff i want isn't in fashion :P
02:09:56 <elliott> also, that project is and always has been a platonic ideal. if anything it will be my life's work.
02:10:07 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, but your own fad
02:10:09 <elliott> i do not anticipate calling anything 1.0 even in the next decade.
02:10:16 <Vorpal> elliott, one day it is smalltalk and capabilities
02:10:27 <Vorpal> elliott, the next it is lisp and one bit address space
02:10:29 <elliott> Vorpal: note: i have never said i will use a certain language for elliottOS
02:10:35 <catseye> i so totally should have bought corn chips when i was at whole foods. oh well
02:10:36 <elliott> one address space has always been a goal
02:10:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:10:41 <elliott> capabilities have always been a goal
02:10:47 <elliott> the language has always been and will always be in total flux :)
02:10:56 <Vorpal> elliott, their relative importance changed a lot
02:11:10 <elliott> well, what's the point of vague design if you can't change your mind day-to-day? :)
02:11:30 <Sgeo> "One address space"?
02:11:37 <Vorpal> elliott, still I think you and zzo should join efforts :P
02:11:48 <elliott> Sgeo: no ram/disk dichotomy
02:11:52 <catseye> VORPAL HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED ZORK
02:11:54 <Sgeo> I assume anything attempting to access memory it shouldn't have access to gets an error of some .... OH
02:12:01 <Sgeo> There are reasons for that
02:12:13 <Sgeo> Well, maybe not for filesystems
02:12:14 <elliott> no there aren't. not like you think.
02:12:17 <Sgeo> But HDs are slower
02:12:24 <catseye> because if not you totally should
02:12:26 <elliott> that is well accounted for
02:12:28 <Vorpal> catseye, alas no, I played collosal cave of course
02:12:38 <catseye> gah collosal cave! 2nd rate
02:12:43 <Sgeo> At the very least, programs need to know whether a block of memory is RAM or HD
02:12:48 <Vorpal> catseye, it was the first!
02:12:50 <elliott> also there are no programs
02:12:55 <elliott> the design is much less simplistic than you think
02:13:02 <elliott> (multics did a form of it iirc)
02:13:12 <catseye> Vorpal: yes it has that. but it's not as cool.
02:13:26 <Vorpal> catseye, being first makes it quite cool
02:13:30 <catseye> "dungeon" is the best thing to ever come out of MIT.
02:13:49 <Sgeo> So when a thingy accidentally uses HD for something very volatile and constantly changing, what then?
02:13:57 <elliott> Sgeo: they don't get the choice.
02:13:58 <catseye> Vorpal: the very very eary versions where it was just a text-based spelunking simulator: THOSE would be cool.
02:14:02 <elliott> memory and HD are managed for them. properly.
02:14:09 <catseye> but i don't know if they exist anymore.
02:14:18 <Sgeo> The OS determines what changes quickly and what doesn't?
02:14:19 <elliott> catseye: well there's the first official one
02:14:26 <elliott> before fantasy-type stuff got added
02:14:28 <elliott> Sgeo: it's not that naive.
02:14:36 <elliott> Sgeo: also, volatile stuff is still saved. for a reason.
02:14:41 <catseye> elliott: really? if that's available i want to see it
02:14:45 <elliott> catseye: hey, one of the questions on the ECDL test involved zork (in a minor way)
02:15:13 <elliott> (ECDL = really basic IT qualification; I'm doing it at school...)
02:15:22 <catseye> European Computer Driving Licence
02:15:30 * Sgeo makes a note to self to only use EhirdOS on systems with solid-state storage
02:15:34 <catseye> HEY WAIT computers sholdn't be allowed to drive!
02:15:49 <Sgeo> catseye, they already do
02:16:22 <elliott> Sgeo: you don't understand the design at all.
02:16:25 <elliott> also you miscapitalised my name
02:17:01 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to SGeo.
02:18:13 <elliott> Crowther had explored the Mammoth Cave in the early 1970s, and created a vector map based on surveys of parts of the real cave, but the text game is a completely separate entity, created during the 1975-76 academic year [5] and featuring fantasy elements such as an axe-throwing dwarf and a magic bridge.
02:18:13 <elliott> Crowther/Woods Adventure (1977) running on a PDP-10
02:18:13 <elliott> The version that is best known today was the result of a collaboration with Don Woods, a graduate student who discovered the game on a computer at Stanford University[6] and made significant expansions and improvements, with Crowther's blessing. A big fan of Tolkien, he introduced additional fantasy elements, such as elves and a troll.
02:18:18 <catseye> elliott: i Now haff NetBSD on a USB stuck. in some Esotericke Formatte. I need to test this
02:18:21 <elliott> catseye: so it still had some fantasy stuff but less
02:18:27 <elliott> catseye: explore the usb stick in GNOME
02:18:31 <elliott> catseye: the files should all be there
02:19:27 <elliott> Crowther's original source code for Adventure (as recovered from Don Woods's student account at Stanford)
02:19:28 <elliott> http://jerz.setonhill.edu/if/crowther/
02:20:18 <elliott> catseye: so you'll want adv{f4,dat}.77-03-11
02:20:25 <elliott> for the earliest possible experience
02:20:30 <elliott> catseye: btw that's the same don woods as intercal
02:20:33 <elliott> but you probably knew that
02:21:45 <elliott> # sudo aptitude install fortran77-compiler
02:22:21 <elliott> catseye: maybe i need to cat the data and source files
02:23:29 <catseye> probably no code survives from the stage when it was just the spelunking simulator -- no fantasy. but it doubtless passed through that state
02:24:05 <catseye> i have no idea about teh fortan. it would be A Project.
02:24:58 <elliott> catseye: be careful with that partitioner btw
02:25:01 <quintopia> i wonder if crowley considered himself a spelunker or a caver back then
02:25:05 <elliott> also, when your selection doesn't seem to be accepted
02:25:10 <elliott> and it just moves to the next-installer-thing
02:26:05 <elliott> if (islower (opt )) opt = toupper (opt );
02:27:09 * catseye goes off all pomp and circumstance like
02:27:12 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6).
02:31:47 <pikhq> All of a sudden it's cold.
02:31:51 <pikhq> It was hot but now it's cold.
02:33:18 <elliott> pikhq: All of a sudden I want to design a filesystem...
02:33:19 * SGeo sticks a thermometer in pikhq
02:33:44 <pikhq> elliott: But it would have files.
02:33:53 <pikhq> elliott: And be insufficiently awesome.
02:34:01 <SGeo> How about a moneysystem
02:34:03 <pikhq> Unless you make it sufficiently awesome?
02:34:03 <SGeo> So we have money
02:34:45 <elliott> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_File_System#History_and_evolution Read this and tell me it doesn't make you want to design a nice little FS.
02:35:34 <SGeo> No hierarchies!
02:36:03 -!- catseye has joined.
02:36:10 <catseye> Right, so, "it supports NetBSD"
02:36:46 <catseye> "Did you bring the chicken wire and calcium carbonate?" "No Karl, I thought YOU were going to bring the chicken wire and calcium carbonate!" "Doh!"
02:37:00 <elliott> catseye: Restate that more coherently.
02:37:19 <SGeo> No, it's coherent. It just needs context.
02:37:23 <catseye> It needs the name of the kernel to load. If you just select an ISO from your disk, it doesn't know that.
02:37:46 <catseye> So, I guess you need to know that, although, I don't know how it knows how to read FFSv1.
02:38:00 <catseye> Back to the docs in more closer examination time!
02:38:05 <elliott> It supports Linux better than that.
02:38:12 <elliott> catseye: Maybe the NetBSD download option does something fancy. How quickly did the iso download?
02:38:18 <catseye> Also continuing to DL 10.10
02:38:38 <catseye> The ISO was not too fast but not too bad. Like 10, 15 minutes?
02:39:24 <elliott> catseye: *groan*, the NetBSD option in unetbootin is 4.0.
02:39:25 <catseye> "supply your own Linux .iso file" that is maybe a hint
02:39:32 <elliott> catseye: yes, but it has bsds in the list of the things
02:39:54 <catseye> yes, i thought it would be general enough to do "if this ISO boots and can handle the fact it isn't a CD, it'll go
02:40:05 <elliott> catseye: wait, i have an idea.
02:40:16 <elliott> catseye: you know that partition of the usb stick?
02:40:34 <elliott> catseye: then dd if=netbsd.iso of=/dev/sdb bs=8k (assuming /dev/sdb is your usb drive)
02:40:42 <elliott> since it uses the floppy emulation stuff
02:41:06 <catseye> Oh jeez. Let me see if anyone has mentioned this
02:41:16 <elliott> catseye: Hey, you can always undo it.
02:41:26 <elliott> Just fdisk the stick, add a partition, mkfs.vfat; tada, back to normal.
02:42:00 <catseye> http://www.bsdnexus.com/NetBSD_onastick/install_guide.php if you're already running NetBSD, great. lemme translate
02:42:35 <elliott> catseye: *yes* no that won't work.
02:42:46 <catseye> Do you want to change our idea of what BIOS thinks?
02:42:51 <elliott> i'm not an idiot, that is the most likely thing to work from linux
02:42:52 <catseye> that alone makes me hate bsd all over again
02:43:02 <catseye> elliott: i don't doubt it will probably work
02:43:11 <elliott> press eject next to partition in gnome
02:43:14 <elliott> $ sudo dd if=netbsd.iso of=/dev/sdb bs=8k
02:43:20 <elliott> it'll take like three minutes
02:43:56 <elliott> catseye: make sure netbsd.iso is the actual name and make sure /dev/sdb is your usb stick
02:44:01 <elliott> (basically pick the highest /dev/sd*...)
02:44:09 <elliott> wiping your HD with a netbsd iso would be nasty
02:46:01 <elliott> sdb1 won't work in this case
02:46:13 <elliott> and you must eject the partition or NO WORKY am i yelling enough
02:47:06 <elliott> $ sudo dd if=NETBSD_ISO_NAME of=/dev/sdb bs=8k
02:47:26 <catseye> while transmission downloads 10.10 incase i can't get this to work
02:49:22 <catseye> what is threads? what is "caver"? BYE
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02:49:34 <pikhq> Aaagh. So, I've got this video I want to encode, right? It's hard telecined. But *strangely*.
02:50:53 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, it's got an atypical telecine pattern.
02:51:04 * pikhq starts single-stepping to see what's going on.
02:51:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
02:52:17 <elliott> pikhq: the main FPSes are 24, 25 and 29.97, right?
02:52:22 -!- catseye has joined.
02:52:41 * catseye <insert picture of post-explosion Wile E. Coyote here>
02:52:48 <elliott> catseye: did it even try and boot? :p
02:53:03 <catseye> I press F5 to boot from USB like usual, and am greeted by a shrill BEEEP through speakers.
02:53:13 <elliott> catseye: you know what? do you have a CD or DVD of any sort
02:53:21 <pikhq> elliott: 24, 24000/1001 25, 30000/1001, 30.
02:53:27 <catseye> Um I have a lot of blank DVDs that are useless t me
02:53:44 <elliott> catseye: Do you have a piece of equipment that can put bits onto discs?
02:53:53 <catseye> NO I DO NOT that is part of the motivation for this
02:54:06 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, wait, there's more, but those are digital only, so hey.
02:54:07 <catseye> This DVD/R is borked, at least under Ubuntu
02:54:12 <pikhq> elliott: NTSC-M is either 30000/1001 or (telecined) 24000/1001, system M is either 30 or (telecined) 24.
02:54:22 <catseye> I haven't tried butning a CD, but expect same result
02:54:29 <elliott> it's better than this crap!
02:54:37 <catseye> I've tried it like five times
02:55:04 <catseye> It always tells me "operation not supported" or some crap. But it has worked on this OS once in the past.
02:55:10 <pikhq> (digital TV standards, BTW, should support directly: 24, 24000/1001, 25, 30000/1001, 30, 50, 60.)
02:55:39 <catseye> I am going to 10.10 since ubutniknetboo understands linux. THEN I might try NetBSD.
02:56:11 <elliott> catseye: Hmm. If burning works on that Ubuntu, that will be good.
02:56:24 <elliott> catseye: btw the installer sucks for partitioning
02:56:26 <catseye> I can try it again, but my hopes are nil.
02:56:32 <elliott> catseye: choose to install updates when installing, and partition manually
02:56:37 <elliott> just put an ext4 partition in for /
02:56:43 <catseye> elliott: the 10.10 installer? ok
02:57:12 <catseye> have another hour before the 10.10 download completes
02:57:20 -!- augur has joined.
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02:57:42 <elliott> pikhq: I suggest that every analogue recording should have a test pattern for a second or so that hardware viewers skip past.
02:57:55 -!- augur has joined.
02:57:56 <elliott> pikhq: So that it can be seen how it differs from the original signal.
02:57:59 <catseye> because i... resuming an interrupted http download does never work
02:58:02 <elliott> catseye: add some web seeds
02:58:39 <catseye> keep in mind i have old retarded transmission w/o File menu
02:58:47 <elliott> oh it might even predate web seeds then
02:58:50 <pikhq> Okay, it seems to *mostly* be 2:3 pulldown, but *parts* of it seem to be doing 1:3 pulldown or 1:4 pulldown.
02:59:45 <catseye> how come other irc channels are never this cool?
03:00:43 <catseye> #scheme i'm guessing NOT on that list
03:00:45 <quintopia> you people are lame and would ruin my cool hangouts.
03:00:51 <elliott> catseye: "THEY'RE ALL PRIVATE HURR"
03:00:57 <elliott> we're cool because we have injokes
03:01:00 * pikhq sees how FUCKING CRAZY mplayer's divtc filter can be
03:01:09 <catseye> oh then they're totally yeah ok
03:01:10 <elliott> that is the true ~irc~ way
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03:03:21 <elliott> pikhq: try mplayer's pullup?
03:03:25 <elliott> it can do crazy things i think
03:03:42 <pikhq> elliott: Not crazy enough.
03:03:45 <catseye> djb should write a roguelike
03:04:01 -!- Akeelah has joined.
03:04:01 <Akeelah> [Global-announcement] Fuck you! This spam was brought to you by #freenode, remember, node freely!
03:04:02 -!- Akeelah has left (?).
03:05:00 <catseye> well whatever, spose i can't expect inteligence from that sort
03:05:30 <catseye> I still have no grasp of this "#freenode is spamming you" meme, though.
03:05:56 <elliott> catseye: because it makes people be stupid in #freenode
03:06:03 <elliott> and then they themselves go in and say "WHY FREENODE SPAMMING"
03:06:10 <elliott> basically it wastes staffer time in #freenode
03:06:11 <catseye> These people need to watch "Airplane" or maybe "Pee-Wee's Playhouse"
03:06:42 <elliott> "pee-wee's playhouse" has to be the most worrying title for anything ever
03:06:42 <catseye> Maybe level up their humorbone, if that's possible.
03:07:34 -!- augur has joined.
03:07:45 <catseye> It is pretty worrying. That Herman fellow was very strange, very strange indeed.
03:08:17 <elliott> My mental association for Herman is Herman Toothrot.
03:08:36 <elliott> http://media.photobucket.com/image/herman%20toothrot/ATMachine/mimisc/mi1amiga8.png
03:08:50 <elliott> he looks better in the pc version though.
03:08:54 <elliott> http://www.scummbar.com/images/dep/mi1characters/fullQ.gif
03:09:03 <SGeo> I guess it's funny for the spammer to watch/
03:09:57 <SGeo> Anyone want to help me label these somehow?
03:09:59 <SGeo> http://daychilde.com/midiguy/
03:11:49 <elliott> it is *impossible* to describe how little i want to help you label those
03:12:30 <SGeo> That means you must want to help a little. "Not at all" is perfectly describable
03:12:45 <elliott> SGeo: i want to help negative amounts
03:12:56 <pikhq> Seems the least awful way to do this is going to be following pullup with a deinterlacer.
03:13:07 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:13:14 <catseye> SGeo: whe... where did you get those and why do they need labelling
03:13:39 <SGeo> From BYOND, many years ago. It caches stuff, including MIDIs from games, and randomizes the names
03:13:52 <catseye> "takefive.mid" is probably Take Five (WILD GUESS)
03:14:05 <elliott> isn't that Lummox JR's stupid fucking piece of crap?
03:14:07 <SGeo> What's your guess for 87b672a2.mid
03:14:18 <catseye> OOoh, "zoot_suit_riot.mid"
03:14:25 <SGeo> elliott, it's LummoxJR's, yes
03:14:37 <elliott> the guy who hates linux because ... actually he never made a coherent argument
03:14:43 <catseye> let me see if i can play em
03:15:28 <elliott> catseye: i love how take five was written in ye olden days when 5/4 was CRAZY AND WILD
03:16:18 <catseye> SGeo: "Will You Be Mine in the Twilight of Unlambda"
03:16:49 <elliott> an esoteric album would be excellent
03:16:51 <catseye> i'm guessing ais523 left himself logged in
03:17:10 <elliott> no ais523 is probably awake
03:17:16 <elliott> his sleep schedule is worse than mine
03:19:01 <SGeo> Oh, the ones that don't need labels aren't from BYOND
03:19:10 <SGeo> Those are from AW mostly, a few from Worlds.com
03:19:43 <SGeo> If it looks like a bastardized URL, it's from AW. Doesn't have to be URLish to be from AW though
03:19:56 <SGeo> And zelda_mario I labelled myself
03:20:43 <quintopia> lol...take five isn't that old is it? dave brubeck is still around right?
03:22:11 <catseye> quintopia: It's older than Mandlebrot
03:23:10 <catseye> Brubeck is 90 this year, looks like
03:23:34 <SGeo> Some of the ones that look labeled need better labels
03:23:44 <SGeo> I'm certain lerf.mid is not the original name
03:23:47 <SGeo> Same with stheme
03:25:09 <SGeo> Dc4 is Light My Fire
03:25:15 <catseye> "When I Come Around" in MIDI is so... yeah
03:25:52 <SGeo> I don't think I've ever heard it not a MIDI
03:26:15 * coppro enjoys this assignment
03:26:21 <catseye> Not to push my musical tastes on you buy
03:26:31 <SGeo> Whenever I hear the real version of some of these songs, I just get giddy with joy
03:26:37 <ais523> catseye: if I'm online overnight, I'm nearly always awake
03:26:40 <SGeo> (The AW ones from the AWGate)
03:26:40 <ais523> but rarely paying attention
03:26:55 <catseye> If you were referring to "Light My Fire", then BUY ANY DOORS COMPILATION
03:26:59 <SGeo> when_i_come_around is one of them
03:27:09 <SGeo> catseye, I was referring to when_i_come_around
03:27:33 <elliott> <SGeo> Whenever I hear the real version of some of these songs, I just get giddy with joy ;; you're crazy :p
03:29:14 <catseye> Dear god you cannot half of these as midi is just preposterous MOST MUSIC IS NOT HELLO
03:29:45 <SGeo> catseye, try to be coherent?
03:29:51 <catseye> AHHHHHH Blondie's "RAPTURE" in MIDI
03:30:10 <catseye> Now, I am all for video-game music. So don't get me wrong.
03:30:19 <catseye> Most of what I write is video-game music.
03:30:21 <SGeo> That would be another AWGate song
03:30:28 <SGeo> I've never heard it outside of MIDI
03:30:28 <Gregor> "Some of my best friends are video-game music!"
03:30:34 <catseye> But that's the thing. If it was *written* as video-game music, it's alight.
03:31:06 <catseye> Well, there's a grey area, but the point is:
03:31:14 <catseye> EVERY TIME YOU TAKE AN ARBITRARY ROCK SONG AND PUT IT INTO MIDI, A MUSE DIES.
03:31:39 <catseye> A muse of something. Could be the muse of modern science fiction. WHo knows.
03:31:55 <elliott> I'd love to see some modern progressive in MIDI. That would just be... it... I would laugh.
03:33:08 <catseye> SGeo: My opinion of AW has now fallen from "undefined" to "AUUUGGGGH", based entirely on the music thing.
03:33:10 <elliott> Where dose one obtain midis these days?
03:33:21 <SGeo> catseye, they stopped
03:33:51 <catseye> At least these midis serve as source code, in a sense, if you wanted to cover them.
03:34:20 <coppro> elliott: When you make your Linux distro, will you make sure that true and false are each 45 bytes?
03:35:22 <catseye> SGeo: Here, get giddy with joy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCaU8LcwGTA
03:35:38 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ls -lh /bin/true /bin/false
03:35:38 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 23K 2010-06-11 08:24 /bin/false
03:35:38 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 23K 2010-06-11 08:24 /bin/true
03:35:50 <SGeo> I like the MIDI version of Kiss from a Rose better than the real version
03:35:57 <elliott> true can be 0 bytes, obviously
03:36:00 <catseye> coppro: That is totally a zzo38 question.
03:36:07 <elliott> false can be 'exit 1\n' = 6 bytes
03:36:14 <coppro> elliott: not the source
03:36:30 <coppro> 23K is hardly a minimal implementation
03:36:33 <elliott> coppro: that was a binary.
03:36:47 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ chmod +x mytrue
03:36:47 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ./mytrue; echo $?
03:36:59 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ echo 'exit 1' >myfalse
03:37:00 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ chmod +x myfalse
03:37:00 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ./myfalse; echo $?
03:37:12 <elliott> coppro: they get interpreted as shell scripts, obviously
03:37:13 <SGeo> Language where the source for true and false is both 2 bytes
03:37:16 <elliott> you'd want a #!/bin/sh at the top really, but
03:37:30 <elliott> coppro: so why 45 bytes :p
03:37:33 <coppro> that's unportable though, isn't it?
03:37:33 <elliott> the smallest elf was 42 bytes
03:37:48 <coppro> if the default shell uses a different convention, particularly with the exit line
03:38:03 <coppro> also, 45 is the smallest elf
03:39:20 -!- augur has joined.
03:39:24 <coppro> or if there is some configuration that causes it to not work
03:40:42 <elliott> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html
03:40:56 <elliott> coppro: note: it doesn't work any more
03:40:59 <elliott> and it breaks every standard ever
03:41:15 <elliott> coppro: anyway, not linux.
03:42:22 <coppro> elliott: you've talked about making your distro among other things
03:44:15 <SGeo> I'm bringing a friend in here
03:44:21 <SGeo> He has questions that I don't know the answers to
03:44:51 <catseye> SGeo: we will totally poison his mind.
03:45:35 -!- SGeo has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:46:40 -!- hyper_cube has joined.
03:48:17 <elliott> hyper_cube: Learn to type English or go away.
03:48:19 <hyper_cube> how a program would communicate with some thing physical
03:48:21 <Sgeo> I'm not familiar with accessing arbitrary hardware
03:48:28 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
03:49:20 <hyper_cube> that should be your gold is to turn a light bulb off and on with writing code
03:50:28 <hyper_cube> i guess this what they call under ground
03:50:29 * Sgeo is utterly unfamiliar with that sort of hardware interaction, while most of the people here understand everything in their sleep
03:50:56 <Sgeo> Um, how exactly is the light bulb connected?
03:51:15 <elliott> oerjan: was that +o for me?
03:52:05 <catseye> there is a #usb channel; granted there are only two people in it.
03:52:17 <Sgeo> I.. don't know much about USB, and everyone else seems hostile, thought oerjan seems more hostile to the hostile person. I know nothng about USB :(
03:52:21 <Gregor> But it is the OFFICIAL channel of USB.
03:52:30 <Gregor> Just like we're the OFFICIAL channel of ... esoteric.
03:52:51 * oerjan doesn't know about hardware, alas
03:53:15 <catseye> otherwise not well defined.
03:53:19 <Sgeo> Esotericn generally refers to unusual. This channel is about esoteric programming languages.
03:53:23 <elliott> hyper_cube: this channel is about esoteric programming languages and related computing topics and the people who love them.
03:53:29 <elliott> are you one of these people?
03:53:40 <Sgeo> Languages that are interesting to thinnk about/work with/etc, but generally not practical
03:53:41 <Gregor> "confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle"
03:53:50 <Sgeo> hyper_cube, not just one
03:53:59 <Sgeo> A variety, and it's often fun to make new ones
03:54:16 <Sgeo> Brainf*ck, for exampe
03:54:32 <elliott> there is a disturbing proliferation of people who have no interest in esoteric programming languages here
03:54:58 <Sgeo> elliott is ... smart, but caustic
03:55:10 <elliott> "you not quite there are u" -- i can't even attempt to parse a meaning from this. seriously. no joke.
03:55:56 <elliott> hyper_cube: i was in a mental institution for 6 months or so.
03:56:04 <elliott> bothered by them for anywhere between 11 months to two years. depending on your definition.
03:56:11 <elliott> the half-joke is manifestly not appreciated.
03:56:22 <elliott> hyper_cube: wow, go fuck yourself
03:56:42 <Sgeo> hyper_cube, um
03:56:50 <elliott> you're a moron and an asshole. this is great.
03:57:15 * Sgeo starts singing "Maybe, This Was a Bad Idea"
03:57:18 <Sgeo> Oooooooooh, no
03:57:31 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*4859958e@*.72.89.149.142.
03:57:58 <elliott> i think if i say that it was unexpected to me too, i'll be next
03:58:02 <catseye> a delightful divertimento for the evening, what?
03:58:06 <elliott> so i'll utilise the use-mention distinction in the above line
03:58:32 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:58:50 <Sgeo> Seriously, I know nothing about USB
03:58:50 * Gregor just feels confused :P
03:59:07 <Sgeo> And he's asking questions about USB, and I want to help
03:59:10 <Sgeo> And I'm utterly clueless
03:59:32 <elliott> So tell him you don't know?
03:59:40 <elliott> Although I am... not sure ... that would stop him ... yeah.
03:59:53 <Sgeo> Then I mentioned a place that I thought would know
04:00:50 <Sgeo> I need to write up some guidelines to give to people before bringing them here
04:01:04 <elliott> Sgeo: To be absolutely frank...
04:01:11 <elliott> I'm not sure he would have comprehended them.
04:01:14 <elliott> Or listened to them if he did.
04:01:18 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
04:01:22 -!- elliott has changed nick to Frank.
04:01:24 <Frank> Absolutely this dude.
04:01:26 -!- Frank has changed nick to elliott.
04:02:08 -!- catseye1 has joined.
04:02:27 <oerjan> i do wish elliott would have been more polite to a newbie until he _proved_ himself rude. i was tempted to kickban both.
04:02:52 <elliott> oerjan: i have enough experience with sgeo's friends. ok so the first "goodbye" was unwarranted
04:03:02 <elliott> <hyper_cube> u dont have any code idea
04:03:14 <elliott> "so u dont have any ideas for the usb interface code?"
04:03:34 <elliott> but...no, sorry, i just can't imagine anyone even vaguely worthwhile saying that line.
04:03:45 <elliott> feel free to kickban me, i'm collecting them
04:04:11 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that he might have assumed that I already described what he wanted before he came here
04:05:01 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:05:12 -!- catseye1 has changed nick to catseye.
04:06:53 <catseye> well, on some level, it is sad that modern computers have such high-level interfaces to the outside world that you cannot start to use unless you buy some communicator package, or understand an overcomplicated spec
04:07:35 <catseye> on the other hand, so what
04:08:05 <catseye> if you want to control hardware, learn PIC
04:09:18 <catseye> lots of good books on microcontrollers, and the smell of solder is unbeatable!
04:09:38 <elliott> catseye: are you drunk or tired?
04:09:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Anyway, _I'm_ tired. Good night.).
04:10:01 <catseye> also, i miss the smell of solder
04:11:21 <catseye> yer just lucky i haven't waxed poetical about adventure games. OH 10.10 still has... a half hour??? bah.
04:11:55 <catseye> they had to make it the full 650M.
04:12:08 <catseye> couldn't stop at 250M like netbsd.
04:12:10 <elliott> catseye: kitten will be, like, 100 mb livecd. :p
04:12:32 * pikhq really needs to eat
04:12:54 <elliott> catseye: it'll basically just be the core + the default-ish configuration of programs constituting the "desktop environment" (or maybe just xfce :P) + a browser + the installer tool
04:13:03 <elliott> catseye: it doesn't have to include all the packages in the system, because they're installed from the network
04:13:09 <elliott> (which also means it always installs the latest version)
04:13:10 <Sgeo> Someday I'm going to introduce someone who won't be a trainwreck in this channel
04:13:20 <catseye> i think i used xfce once, after blackbox.
04:13:23 <elliott> so basically it just has to be the default graphical environment, a browser of some sort, and the installer.
04:13:39 <catseye> elliott: if only X wasn't an architectural nightmare.
04:14:03 <elliott> catseye: there's smallx/tinyx but that's not really... maintained at all and it's ancient
04:14:06 <elliott> but it was a proof of concept
04:14:11 <elliott> catseye: there's kdrive which i'll probably use by default
04:14:16 <elliott> catseye: which is now part of xorg, but:
04:14:21 <catseye> elliott: i tried to fork svgalib once, but it was already obsolete (my ostensible goal was to get it working on dfly, and to clean it up)
04:14:22 <elliott> catseye: basically every server has one set of drivers
04:14:33 <elliott> and has a generic keyboard/mouse drive
04:14:37 <elliott> and it's pretty damn small
04:14:42 <elliott> or you have Xfbdev, uses the framebuffer
04:14:48 <elliott> and then there's Xfoo for a handful of cards
04:14:54 <elliott> but not like nvidia or ati or intel or anything that needs full X.org
04:15:02 <elliott> but i'll probably ship xvesa as the default
04:15:07 <elliott> a lot of the bloat comes from libx11 though
04:15:09 <catseye> the X windows protocol reminds me of the optic nerve (er, what R.D. said about the optic nerve in... the blind watchmaker, i think)
04:15:27 <elliott> never seen "R.D." before :)
04:15:30 <catseye> "you'd never design it that way, but that's what evolved, so that's what we have
04:15:42 <catseye> (finding it hard to type :)
04:15:43 <elliott> catseye: but X11 was designed!
04:16:06 <elliott> catseye: on his livejournal stanislav posted that he was switching majors to biology
04:16:08 <Sgeo> Has anyone ever had anything good to say about X?
04:16:14 <elliott> because he could accept useless complexity from nature
04:16:25 <elliott> Sgeo: yes. they were all on crack at the time
04:16:35 <elliott> and they called it the X11 specification meeting
04:16:42 <Ilari> Is X11 so bad? Yes, most client implementations are bad...
04:16:51 <elliott> Ilari: As is the server architecture.
04:16:54 <elliott> As is the network protocol.
04:17:13 <Sgeo> What.. how does Windows work>
04:17:21 <elliott> Sgeo: It has the GUI in the kernel.
04:17:22 <Ilari> Most X11 clients synchronize way way too much.
04:17:37 <elliott> The kernel has window management functionality in a separate GUI module, and also GUI widget functions that draw inside these windows.
04:17:40 <elliott> It's all done at kernel level.
04:17:51 <elliott> This is also why Windows' GUI is -- well, was -- fast and responsive.
04:17:54 <elliott> Especially compared to X11.
04:17:56 -!- catseye1 has joined.
04:18:20 <Sgeo> That also means no choice
04:18:26 <Sgeo> No changing to a different window manager
04:18:35 <elliott> Sgeo: well there's windowblinds. ha!
04:18:51 <catseye1> I wonder why that keeps happening
04:19:33 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wusGIl3v044 dear GOD.
04:20:13 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:20:21 <elliott> they're going to murder me.
04:20:51 -!- catseye1 has changed nick to catseye.
04:20:59 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/articles/cyclist-friend-explains-necessity-of-35-socks,18259/
04:21:01 <catseye> my internet has decided to be ass tonight, it seems
04:21:40 <catseye> thankfully i am not AT work, at 10:21PM on a Saturday...
04:22:32 <Sgeo> Well, never know if any easily offended children snuck on here recently
04:22:41 <catseye> I am in the midwest. It is available, free, from metal boxes, on the street corners.
04:22:59 <elliott> Sgeo: then i hope they get offended
04:23:16 <elliott> catseye: the onion start with the title and write with the article, and by god does it show.
04:23:38 <elliott> "HOLY SHIT, MAN WALKS ON FUCKING MOON" was excellent though.
04:26:57 <elliott> catseye: anyway software sucks. isn't that something?
04:27:29 <catseye> I was going for something more Douglas-Adams-like, but that was... what came out.
04:28:51 -!- augur has joined.
04:29:27 <elliott> eh invites mrons to chanell and doesnt afraid of anything?
04:30:12 <elliott> catseye: explain why these aren't in C:
04:30:14 <elliott> #define ITEMS(a) (sizeof(a) / sizeof((a)[0]))
04:30:14 <elliott> #define FOREACH(i,a) for ((i) = 0; (i) < ITEMS(a); (i)++)
04:30:39 <elliott> quintopia: Seriously? You say how your channels that you won't tell us about are better then you call someone less elitist than us for inviting an abject moron?
04:30:59 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:31:17 <catseye> elliott: because you can #define them?
04:31:40 <elliott> catseye: you can #define an awful lot of stuff in C :P
04:31:51 <catseye> C is pretty cool, but not perfect. but imperfect in a way that is... dealable-with.
04:32:13 <quintopia> elliott: come on? i'm already here, and yep you summed up my position pretty accurately.
04:32:34 <elliott> quintopia: The hypocrisy is immense.
04:32:37 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:33:07 <elliott> "You're not cool enough for us" -- elitism; "He's less elitist than you guys, he invited an idiot who couldn't spell and insulted people rather than saying anything coherent" -- an insane level of anti-elitism
04:33:09 -!- augur has joined.
04:33:45 <quintopia> yeah, you mischaracterized it that time
04:34:03 <quintopia> the "not cool enough" should be "too assholish and argumentative"
04:35:24 <elliott> quintopia: did you even see the guy who came in?
04:35:49 <elliott> are you seriously saying we should have talked to him? despite the fact that he didn't say anything coherent or even vaguely on-topic and just came in because Sgeo had no idea what to do with him?
04:37:24 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
04:37:43 <SgeoN1> Shall I mention that I know him irl?
04:38:15 -!- hyper_cube has joined.
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04:38:42 <elliott> hyper_cube: you were banned.
04:38:46 <elliott> you are circumventing a ban.
04:39:01 <elliott> ok. let me repeat this in words you can understand
04:39:04 <SgeoN1> Hyper, please don't get into this argument
04:39:04 <elliott> hyper_cube: fuck off you moron.
04:39:14 * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation
04:39:20 <SgeoN1> Please, I'm begging you, don't insult the regulars
04:39:55 <SgeoN1> For what it's worth, elliott regularly runs circles around me mentally
04:40:11 <SgeoN1> Evading bans is not co sidered smart here
04:40:22 <catseye> FWIW, this is not about smart. This is about civil and sane. OK?
04:41:09 <coppro> evading bans is a sign of a) nonzero intelligence and b) zero social skill
04:41:20 <SgeoN1> Was hyper banned? Or just kicked?
04:41:23 <elliott> coppro: non-zero perhaps, but not non-infinitesimal
04:41:29 <pikhq> hyper_cube: You must be a moron.
04:41:33 <elliott> * oerjan sets ban on *!*4859958e@*.72.89.149.142
04:41:33 <elliott> * oerjan has kicked hyper_cube from #esoteric (hyper_cube)
04:41:41 <catseye> I mean there are certain minimum levels of smart involved in "civil", but you get the idea.
04:41:43 <elliott> pikhq: that has been proved to excess earlier.
04:41:56 <hyper_cube> thats wierd sgeo bye technology is here to be hornase and share do
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04:42:09 <coppro> elliott: infinitesimals don't exist :(
04:42:10 <elliott> hyper_cube: can you hurry up with the going away thing?
04:42:11 <ais523> since when did dotted quads have four dots?
04:42:12 <elliott> also the never going back thing
04:42:33 <elliott> coppro: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-standard_analysis
04:42:46 <elliott> the way more beautiful expression of calculus etc :)
04:42:49 <Sgeo> *harnessed and *shared I think
04:43:03 <elliott> now taking bets on how long until he comes back
04:43:15 <Sgeo> For the record, I did not ask him to come back
04:43:16 <quintopia> yeah that guy is annoying. sgeo is not as annoying as that guy. how did you find a guy like that sgeo?
04:43:25 <pikhq> If you're evading a ban, you are *certainly* missing the point. If you want back in the channel, demonstrate to an op that you will behave. Otherwise, fuck off.
04:43:46 <elliott> pikhq: i've evaded bans here! admittedly the bans were ones i asked an op for after +o came and my insanity set in.
04:44:02 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but that's different.
04:44:49 <coppro> I know a person who asked for a ban a very long time ago in a channel and it's enforced to this day. He attempts to join every now and then and gets kbed by the bot.
04:45:11 <elliott> coppro: has he asked an op to revoke it?
04:45:17 <elliott> if so, then i conclude that the ops are basically dicks.
04:45:25 <coppro> elliott: AFAIK he has not
04:45:41 <coppro> but no op has gone "oh that ban was dumb let's remove it"
04:45:48 <elliott> so hey coppro HOW IS MY MATHNEWS ARTICLE DOING IN THE PIPELINE
04:46:18 <catseye> was about to ask him how many vertices he had.
04:46:23 <elliott> [coppro has an epileptic fit and implodes]
04:46:28 <catseye> but, that's the wrong direction to go.
04:46:44 <elliott> took me a while to get that
04:47:45 <Gregor> Bleh. I made a new recording of Op. 10 but it didn't come out very well >_>
04:48:53 * pikhq hands Gregor a time machine so that there can *be* an Op. 0
04:49:31 <ais523> I know I once did something really stupid in a channel
04:49:35 <catseye> Gregor: music has been redefined as "any action". Start tossing pillowcasefuls of ball bearings onto construction sites plz
04:49:42 <ais523> said it was stupid enough to be kickbanned, asked for ops and they gave it to me
04:49:56 <ais523> (and I did actually kickban myself with them, but someone unbanned me soon after)
04:50:09 <elliott> ais523: whatdidyoudowhatdidyouDO
04:50:22 <ais523> set a puzzle for which the intended answer was incorrect
04:50:34 <elliott> since when is that kickban-worthy :P
04:50:44 <ais523> and as a result, missed it when people got the actually right answer
04:53:47 <pikhq> I am sick enough to make reading a book a hard task. God dammit.
04:54:03 <pikhq> My options are: waste time web browsing.
04:54:09 <pikhq> I do too much of that when I'm healthy!
04:54:27 <catseye> elliott: software sucks because two reasons. one it is intrinsically hard because of hating poblem ETC. two, people are jerkasses who don't care if they've done right.
04:54:39 <ais523> read the entirety of TV Tropes so you never have to waste time on it again
04:55:01 <pikhq> It's not just TV Tropes.
04:55:02 <Sgeo> Do IRC bans expire?
04:55:05 <pikhq> Though that's a major problem.
04:55:07 <ais523> I like the concept of a hating problem
04:55:12 <ais523> Sgeo: no, they have to be removed by an op
04:55:18 <ais523> or by services, but services don't unless they're told to
04:55:29 <ais523> some really large channels have an opbot whose main purpose is expiring bans
04:55:33 <elliott> catseye: so Robin, how long until it's implemented
04:55:48 <catseye> ais523: yeah, i liked the hating problem too.
04:56:29 <catseye> elliott: well, a long time probably, although you might have guessed, pixley + message passing + modules is what i'm now thinking about for a base language.
04:57:08 <elliott> catseye: you might want to take the route of "it's an OS with its own little simulated memory space and display but it's running in user space" thing. i find that a bit weird, but
04:57:12 <catseye> i mean, if Nock can be considered a decent core language (though it can't be, really, can it??), then...
04:57:21 <elliott> i guess it does let you prototype high-level OS ideas really easily
04:57:31 <elliott> catseye: well with Nock you have jets which are basically cheating, but :)
04:57:49 <ais523> catseye: sounds like a standard example in Ramsey theory
04:58:18 <catseye> well, once you are able to import symbols and send messages to and from processes which (to you) are just interfaces, you have what are effectively "jets" too, so...
04:58:43 <catseye> (that would be how i would handle that, anyway)
04:59:22 <elliott> <ais523> catseye: sounds like a standard example in Ramsey theory
04:59:29 <catseye> Tho to be *made* of fail is actually something of a feat, so yeah!
04:59:32 <Gregor> When the cord on my headphones is giving out, causing them to switch to mono left channel (AKA bass channel), the treble sucks!
04:59:44 <catseye> was just about to google Ramsey theory actually
05:00:11 <catseye> BUT WAS DISTRACTED BY GIMME SLOW PIZZA VIDEO AARGH
05:01:38 <elliott> ais523: what sounds like that
05:01:50 <elliott> catseye: ramsey theory gave us graham's number
05:02:33 <ais523> elliott: oh, you have six people, each pair either loves each other or hates each other
05:02:40 <ais523> prove that there's some set of three people that mutually love or mutually hate
05:02:43 <elliott> ais523: oh hating problem ok
05:02:48 <ais523> I think that is /the/ standard Ramsey theory example
05:04:34 <catseye> ok, i get that much, but yes, what sounds like this? an OS based on a sliver of scheme with some toys pasted in?
05:05:11 <catseye> toys = comminication mechanisms, really
05:05:33 <elliott> catseye: he never said anything looked liek that
05:05:40 <elliott> catseye: link me to robin again?
05:06:03 <catseye> "ais523 | catseye: sounds like a standard example in Ramsey theory" unclear what this is in reference to
05:06:10 <catseye> elliott: it's out of date! but i can try to find it again
05:06:20 <elliott> catseye: to "hating theory"
05:06:26 <elliott> I HAVE EXPLAINED THIS N TIMES
05:06:42 <catseye> hating theory, friends, strangers. OH KAY!
05:07:03 <ais523> catseye: you saying you liked the hating problem too
05:08:20 <catseye> elliott: http://catseye.tc/lab/robin/robin.html WAY out of date but there you go
05:08:53 <catseye> ais523: as a mathematician, what do you see as more fundamental: multiplication, or addition?
05:09:03 <elliott> multiplication makes more sense than addition!
05:09:15 <elliott> catseye: ais523 isn't exactly a mathematician, is he...
05:09:23 <Gregor> Multiplication is multiset addition over the multisets of prime factors.
05:09:27 <catseye> well i'm extracting his mathematician aspect
05:09:28 <elliott> ais523: you're doing electrical engineering right?
05:09:35 <ais523> elliott: computer science nowadays
05:09:37 <elliott> because you're crazy and masochistic
05:09:41 <elliott> ais523: oh you came over to the light side
05:09:44 <ais523> the electronic engineering is finished, I'm qualified in that now
05:10:02 <ais523> as a computer scientist, multiplication feels more fundamental
05:10:11 <ais523> it's much easier to implement in terms of Church numerals, for instance
05:10:23 <elliott> you have to decompose the number on the right
05:10:25 <elliott> and stack it on to the left
05:10:25 <ais523> (in fact, with Church numerals, even exponentiation is easier than addition)
05:10:28 <elliott> whereas multiplication is just...
05:10:34 <elliott> you don't feel like you're deconstructing them
05:10:42 <elliott> you're using the one on the right (or left, whatever) as a loop
05:10:47 <catseye> yeah, i'm on the side of multiplication too. even in an abstract setting. which is a little weird, since it can be defined with addition.
05:11:09 <elliott> whereas with addition... you basically have to phrase it as taking little Ses off a peano numeral and stacking them on to another
05:11:14 <Sgeo> VLC manages to put buttons in the taskbar preview thingy?
05:11:40 <elliott> catseye: so you've given up on ρ?
05:11:46 <catseye> plus, fundamental theory of arithmetic, and all. it's like there are two ways to get to any integer. but one is boring and the other is exciting.
05:12:09 <catseye> elliott: well, sort of. i mean, it has spun off a number of interesting sub-projects.
05:12:29 <elliott> "Like GRAVITY and EVILUTION."
05:12:40 <elliott> catseye: is stupidernestine still there?
05:12:54 <catseye> haven't thought about that in a while
05:13:09 <Sgeo> If a+b = ln [e^a * e^b], what's a?b = ln [e^a + e^b]
05:13:18 <Sgeo> How does ? behave?
05:13:41 <elliott> it behaves like ln(e^a + e^b)
05:13:59 <Sgeo> I think it's base dependent. The multuplication thing works just as well in other bases
05:14:04 <catseye> that would have taken me a while, but yes it behaves something like that
05:14:37 <Sgeo> You guys are no fun
05:15:05 <catseye> Sgeo: I don't think it's "clean"
05:15:36 <Sgeo> Any chance that addition is just repeated ?
05:16:14 <catseye> well, take a = 1 and b = 1
05:18:44 <elliott> 10?50 = 10 + log(1 + e^40)
05:19:11 <elliott> a?b = a + log(1 + e^(b-a))
05:19:43 <Sgeo> How would you get there from the defintion?
05:20:20 <Sgeo> Can we prove it?
05:20:37 <Sgeo> Or is this a weird true but unprovable thing?
05:20:40 <catseye> probably. properties of log?
05:20:41 <elliott> of course we can prove it.
05:20:49 <elliott> true but unprovable things are 345897589375x more complicated than this and rare.
05:21:06 <catseye> yes but "we" are easily distracted
05:21:38 <elliott> Sgeo: anyway uh, i can't think of a useful use for this operation
05:21:39 <Sgeo> ln(e^a + e^b) = ln(2e^a +e^b-e^a)
05:21:42 <elliott> but that isn't to say there isn't one
05:21:53 <Sgeo> I learned it as ln
05:22:01 <Sgeo> log is base 10
05:22:36 <elliott> ln is freaky engineering talk
05:23:06 <Sgeo> I wanted something "below" addition, so to speak
05:23:19 <elliott> coppro: i'd say ln is only common in the rubbish, software-engineering brand of CS.
05:23:19 <coppro> in CS, log is normally to base 2 because that's the one that matters
05:23:43 <coppro> elliott: well, it just so happens that log_e is not very useful in CS. But it would be called ln whenever that occurs
05:23:59 <coppro> elliott: the running time of mergesort is O(n * log n) etc.
05:24:15 <elliott> who needs log when you have kolgomorov complexity! (what?)
05:24:16 <Sgeo> But in O notation, the base is irrelevant
05:24:51 <coppro> Sgeo: true, but not for other bound notations, and by convention log is base 2 in those as well
05:25:33 * Sgeo doesn't know the other notations :(
05:27:47 <catseye> 2 is more "natural" than that 2.7 thing, in CS :0
05:28:36 * coppro is going to start referring to sinusoidal time on the basis that O(x) = O(sin x)
05:28:37 * Sgeo is glad humans live on timescales where basic computation doesn't take up our natural lives
05:28:46 <ais523> computers should use base e!
05:28:56 <Sgeo> How does O(x) = O(sin x)?
05:29:33 <pikhq> So... It varies between 1 and 0 time sinusoidally?
05:29:33 <catseye> i mean, they totally SHOULD
05:29:57 <pikhq> It can sometimes do time travel.
05:30:19 <coppro> big-O defines equivalence classes, which is cool
05:30:29 <coppro> as it so happens, sin x and x are in the same such class
05:30:38 <elliott> O(sin x), i approve of this
05:30:44 <Sgeo> How are they the same such class?
05:30:48 <elliott> make an algorithm with that complexity
05:31:07 <Sgeo> Finding an item in a linked list.
05:31:07 <coppro> Sgeo: it follows simply from the definition of big-O
05:31:19 <pikhq> Sgeo: Constant factors are irrelevant by definition.
05:31:23 <Sgeo> <coppro> as it so happens, sin x and x are in the same such class
05:31:37 <elliott> O(sin x) has certain connotations.
05:31:58 <coppro> yes, but math doesn't care
05:32:00 <coppro> that's why it's amusing
05:32:09 <pikhq> But big-O says you're wrong and that yo mamma so fat that she has O(x^x) complexity.
05:32:27 <coppro> (although actually the algorithmic notations were invented for things other than algorithms)
05:32:34 <elliott> O(n^934873489374983749347934)
05:32:39 <Sgeo> Does it make sense to talk about n complexity or sin n complexity, without the O?
05:33:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: It'll probably be considered a shorthand for big-O notation.
05:33:14 <coppro> the problem is it's ambiguous
05:33:23 <coppro> probably it will be assumed to be big-O
05:33:24 <pikhq> But, yeah, it's ambiguous.
05:33:26 <Sgeo> There. We want an algorithm with a complexity of the form a + b sin c*n
05:33:32 <coppro> but it could just as easily be big-Omega
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05:33:38 <catseye> You're getting into the area of "This program executed this many instructions on this architecture"
05:33:57 <pikhq> catseye: I want *that* to be sinusoidal.
05:34:02 <Sgeo> I thought I just abstracted that away!
05:36:36 <catseye> The only one there besides me is ChanServ'
05:37:59 <Sgeo> Your "besides me" implies something that happens to be false -- namely, your presense there
05:39:45 <catseye> Sgeo: my presence there was not false. and I don't see how "besides me" implies something false.
05:40:06 <Sgeo> Bleh, I guess at the time you said it you were there
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05:42:53 <catseye> wow, there is an ##electronics
05:43:26 <catseye> and it has a million jillion users
05:45:18 <catseye> Gregor knows about the bananas.
05:57:31 <coppro> Sgeo: I apologize, I made a typo earlier
05:57:47 <coppro> it is not x and sin x are not in the same big-O complexity class
05:57:50 <coppro> rather, sin x and 1 are
05:57:54 <coppro> which is what I meant all along
05:58:06 <catseye> time to test 10.10-on-a-usb-stick.
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06:06:06 <DrNinja> it totally works. i am booted into ubuntu 10.10 right now.
06:06:31 <DrNinja> so... i need to consider what to do next.
06:06:39 <DrNinja> oh, it thinks it's 5:06 AM.
06:06:53 <Gregor> AT&T Unix SysV bootable USB disk!
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06:08:18 <pikhq> 忍者医師？(ninnsìȳaisi?)[ninjaishi?]{Dr. Ninja?}
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06:13:15 <pikhq> I need more enclosing punctuation.
06:14:11 <pikhq> Hmm. On my keyboard, just (){}[]<>. Adding compose, I get... “”‘’‹›«», I think.
06:14:26 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to BenFranklin.
06:14:28 <Gregor> Don't have compose keys for Japanese quotes?
06:15:47 <pikhq> Hmm. IME... 「」【】『』〔〕〈〉＜＞《》（）｛｝
06:16:03 <pikhq> zzo38: IT COMES UP
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06:22:34 <SgeoMcSgeo> THERE WAS AN AXE COP/DR. MCNINJA CROSSOVER?
06:36:01 <zzo38> Do you know why Enhanced CWEB does not work on FreeBSD, apparently?
06:36:58 <zzo38> It does work fine on Windows and on Linux, but apparently it does not work on FreeBSD. I hope to correct this problem.
06:38:45 <zzo38> pikhq: Can you give the example why more enclosing punctuation is needed? Depending what you do, perhaps things like <|....|> or (|....|) can be used?
06:54:44 <ais523> zzo38: those sorts of punctuation are usable in perl 6 for user-defined sorts of parentheses
06:54:50 <ais523> to avoid clashes with the built in parentheses
06:54:55 <ais523> that is, () [] {} <> «»
06:55:26 <zzo38> ais523: Can you use other unicode enclosing punctuations?
06:55:40 <ais523> yes, they just don't have default meanings like those five do
06:55:45 <ais523> so you need to define them explicitly
06:56:09 <ais523> oh, there's also '' "" // but those aren't exactly enclosing
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13:18:47 <oerjan> * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation
13:19:03 * oerjan pictures catseye looking like an indian god
13:23:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, what as the context?
13:23:38 <oerjan> the person i banned came back to gloat
13:26:43 <oerjan> fortunately he eventually listened to Sgeo, who knows him
13:39:06 <oerjan> 21:24:51 <coppro> Sgeo: true, but not for other bound notations, and by convention log is base 2 in those as well
13:39:09 <oerjan> 21:25:29 <coppro> such as little o
13:39:27 <oerjan> um the base is quite irrelevant for o as well. constant multiplier.
13:40:57 <oerjan> 21:30:19 <coppro> big-O defines equivalence classes, which is cool
13:40:57 <oerjan> 21:30:29 <coppro> as it so happens, sin x and x are in the same such class
13:41:43 <oerjan> only for limits at zero. not for complexity, which uses limits at infinity.
13:43:02 <oerjan> or, certainly not if it's to hold for all x, large and small
13:47:33 <oerjan> <coppro> rather, sin x and 1 are
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14:26:10 <elliott> wikilawyering at its best:
14:26:10 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion#Template:Two_other_uses
14:43:15 <elliott> "One Is Enough, a 2D platform game in which a communist ball needs to convert capitalist balls into fellow communist balls. More and more capitalist balls will be issued by the bank, creating new enemies."
14:44:51 <quintopia> speaking of 2D platform games, i played through a flash game called "The Tall Stump" last night. It was quite challenging.
14:48:58 <quintopia> apparently if you play all the way through without pausing, you can submit your time to the high score list
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14:49:29 <quintopia> and if you find all the hats, you can unlock the wearable clock, which deducts a minute if you finish wearing it
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15:08:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, which was the multicast daemon you recommended? was it mrd6 or some other?
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15:25:33 <fizzie> Yes, mrd6; I've heard of it, though not tried it out.
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15:42:19 <elliott> interesting kolgomorov complexity question:
15:42:41 <elliott> can a program that outputs (a program that outputs X) be smaller than the smallest program that outputs X?
15:43:43 <elliott> (language may vary but nothing tweaked specifically to make this true)
15:44:07 <elliott> obviously you could have a "zoop" instruction that outputs for(i=0;i<1000;i++){print("hi")}
15:49:26 <quintopia> for instance, if you are writing the program for the GoL UCC that replicates the same
15:49:56 <quintopia> the program that builds the program into the machine is necessarily much smaller than the machine itself by any reasonable definition
15:50:17 <elliott> quintopia: well kolgomorov complexity is not well-defined there.
15:50:28 <elliott> "smaller than the *smallest* program that outputs X" is important
15:50:48 <elliott> it's saying: K(X where run(X) = Y) < K(Y)
15:50:54 <elliott> which is an interesting property about the language
15:51:15 <quintopia> i was not offering a proof, just an intuition that leads me to believe it is possible
15:51:16 <elliott> of course, any X can be used there
15:51:18 <Vorpal> aaaaargh this makefile makes me want to headdesk. It uses @strip in the rule for linking the program. So that is why make CFLAGS='-g' did not work....
15:51:21 <elliott> even a super-long program that outputs Y
15:51:30 <Vorpal> and the @ is especially nasty
15:51:32 <elliott> as long as the program outputting X is smaller than the *smallest* program outputting Y
15:51:49 <elliott> Vorpal: makefiles should have DEBUG flags
15:51:55 <elliott> DEBUG=1 turns off optimisation, turns on -g and doesn't strip
15:52:30 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah and well, programs shouldn't strip at all when compiling them, only perhaps when installing them
15:52:43 <elliott> Vorpal: well. i like to think of installs as just a copy
15:52:45 <Vorpal> elliott, and it should never ever call strip and hide it from output with @
15:52:49 <elliott> i.e. if you can make it run from inside the build tree, it should work the same
15:52:56 <elliott> strpping on a non-debug compile is reasonable methinks
15:52:58 <elliott> Vorpal: but yeah the @ thing is evil
15:53:14 <elliott> which is quite common in makefiles
15:53:30 <Vorpal> elliott, it isn't even consistent in hiding calls to gcc and such
15:53:46 <Vorpal> elliott, sorry. I was wrong:
15:53:50 <Vorpal> CC:= @echo "[Compiling] $$@"; $(CC)
15:53:54 <Vorpal> that is so utterly stupid
15:54:14 <elliott> Vorpal: and assigning it to CC, wow.
15:54:25 <Vorpal> elliott, that only works thanks to :=
15:54:27 <elliott> what happened to "CC file"
15:54:33 <elliott> did we need to make it longer :P
15:54:41 <Vorpal> elliott, since otherwise CC would resolved at use
15:54:47 <Vorpal> := forces it to resolve it at assignment
15:55:13 <Vorpal> elliott, as a "side effect" := will also prevent make CC=clang or such from working
15:55:23 <Vorpal> elliott, since it is used in the override
15:55:52 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway clang doesn't work on that. It complains about unknown option -fshort-enums
15:55:58 <Vorpal> and well, you can't just ignore that option
15:56:16 <Vorpal> WARNS= -W -Wall -pedantic -Wshadow -Wpointer-arith -Wcast-align -Wwrite-strings -Waggregate-return -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wmissing-declarations -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Winline -Wbad-function-cast -fshort-enums -fstrict-aliasing -fno-common -Wpacked -Wpadded
15:56:26 <Vorpal> it is ABI changing stuff too
15:56:51 <Ilari> Vorpal: What is this program with such WTF-class makefile?
15:56:52 <Vorpal> -fno-common? seriously
15:58:29 <Vorpal> Ilari, ecmh. A ipv6 MLDv1/v2 multicast routing daemon, which according to some googling is what sixxs recommends for POPs that can do multicast but aren't connected directly to m6bone, mrd6 apparently doesn't work very well there.
15:59:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't in general, and I think I'm going to give mrd6 a try and see if it can be made to work with it
15:59:27 <Vorpal> maybe whatever bug made it fail before is now fixed
16:00:13 <elliott> Vorpal: remind me to switch to Bogons sometime
16:00:33 <elliott> just wish they were cheaper!
16:00:45 <Vorpal> elliott, oh btw, where you here when I got ipsec tunneling to work?
16:01:07 <quintopia> elliott: let's say you have a program A that outputs "Hello World" and the listing of program B and program B outputs "Hello" and a listing of program A. Is there any reason to believe that the shortest programs that satisfy this description are the same length?
16:01:18 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, well, it is crazy under linux. You would expect most tunnels to use some sort of "pseudo interface" or such right?
16:02:01 <elliott> Vorpal: linux uses a daemon? a kernel module pretending to be a daemon?
16:02:15 <Ilari> Well, Linux has TUN and TAP interfaces...
16:03:22 <Vorpal> elliott, linux uses some strange routing policy rules and no pseudo interfaces for ipsec tunnels. If you use wireshark on eth0 (assuming that is where the tunnel comes in to you) it will show the packages twice: once as the encrypted package and then a second time as the decrypted one.
16:03:50 <Vorpal> note that for plain old transport mode wireshark just sees the encrypted packages
16:04:05 <Vorpal> (and of course, wireshark on a third host just sees encrypted for both cases)
16:05:17 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a route like "<other-endpoint's-ip-inside-tunnel> via <my normal standard gateway> metric 0 proto static". Thanks to the magic policy stuff this nonsense route somehow works
16:05:47 <Vorpal> so completely and utterly crazy
16:06:35 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and if you use the network manager vpn thingy on the client, you need to add that route by hand
16:06:41 <Vorpal> it didn't get added, it did for the server
16:07:15 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and talking to the rest of the lan is of course doomed unless you set up a route via the VPN server on each computer. I have to figure out how to do that.
16:07:40 <Vorpal> Ilari, the daemon adds/removes it as needed. Except that fails with network-manager
16:07:55 <elliott> it's the Elliott nmaps His Router time again!
16:07:57 <Vorpal> Ilari, since it neither adds nor removes it
16:08:03 <elliott> i refuse to let that proprietary piece of crap beat me
16:08:08 <Vorpal> elliott, is it one of those that likes to crash from that?
16:08:13 <elliott> Vorpal: it didn't last time! i think.
16:08:27 <elliott> Vorpal: I know that my previous router, the Orange Livebox, was hackable by:
16:08:32 <elliott> - Downloading a backup of the configuration
16:08:38 <elliott> - XORing all the bytes with a magic number
16:08:41 <elliott> - Unpacking it (it's a tar!)
16:08:44 <elliott> - Modifying the init script
16:08:58 <elliott> - Upload the "backed up configuration"
16:09:05 <elliott> *put - Re-pack as a tar above the XORing it the other way step
16:09:05 <Vorpal> elliott, when I nmap mine it often decides to introduce random malfuction in the wlan. Like refusing DHCP from some wlan clients, or sending bogus responses
16:09:12 <elliott> Vorpal: I got files on to the system but never got dropbear working.
16:09:21 <Vorpal> elliott, and that was nmaping from the ethernet side
16:09:38 <elliott> anyway this thing has a configuration backup/restore too
16:09:43 <elliott> so hopefully there's something i can do
16:09:50 <Ilari> Vorpal: Is that standard IPSec or some propiteriary VPN crap?
16:09:58 <Vorpal> elliott, last I remember it decided it wanted to send the completely wrong standard gateway info to any wlan nics from intel
16:10:13 <Vorpal> elliott, which is just an absurd failure mode
16:10:13 <elliott> Well hello there, what's this then?
16:10:27 <elliott> Oh, it looks like it exposes the http configuration interface to the web
16:10:38 <elliott> (You can configure what IP can access it though!)
16:11:01 <Vorpal> elliott, "to the web"?
16:11:09 <Vorpal> do you mean to the wan?
16:11:29 <elliott> password-protected and you can select that only one given IP can view it
16:11:30 <Vorpal> elliott, as opposed to "to the gopher"?
16:11:36 <elliott> Vorpal: ...it's an HTTP web interface.s
16:11:47 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I think "to the web" is weird :P
16:11:58 <Vorpal> elliott, do you mean "to non-LAN"?
16:12:45 <Vorpal> elliott, which is what I meant with "to the wan"
16:12:56 <elliott> "BRN E1" -- near the end of the backup file
16:13:24 <elliott> doesn't look like a shifted tar header or anything
16:13:46 <Vorpal> elliott, wan is the common technical term for external interface of a customer-premises router
16:14:27 * elliott wonders if nmap uses this by default
16:14:52 <Vorpal> elliott, why would it, it scans tcp normally
16:15:12 <Vorpal> just udp of course, how could it do both?
16:15:22 <elliott> by scanning tcp and then udp...?
16:15:27 <Vorpal> elliott, default is -sS if root, otherwise -sT
16:15:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well that would be two separate scans
16:15:52 <elliott> $ sudo nmap -v -A -sV 192.168.1.1
16:16:00 <Vorpal> -sV is badly named iirc
16:16:10 <Vorpal> since it isn't really a port scan in that sense
16:16:16 <Vorpal> it isn't used to detect open ports
16:16:17 <elliott> i just want as much info as i can get
16:16:22 <elliott> Vorpal: no, i did it to detect
16:16:23 <Vorpal> it is used to probe open ports to find what they are
16:16:40 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, but it shouldn't be -s<something> then
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16:16:49 <Vorpal> since all the other -s<something> are to detect open ports
16:17:01 <Vorpal> elliott, and OS scan is not -sO
16:17:14 <Vorpal> yeah, just illogical name of option name
16:17:25 <elliott> Scanning 4 services on SE572 (192.168.1.1)
16:17:36 <elliott> last time i tried this iirc it gave wild guesses that turned out to be totally wrong
16:17:43 <elliott> as to what the ports have on them
16:18:00 <Vorpal> elliott, also fun thing: it tries to detect IRC by faking a connection and then quitting, with the realname field "nmap wuz here"
16:18:25 <elliott> bet some servers try and autoban that :))
16:18:40 <elliott> Completed Service scan at 16:17, 119.42s elapsed (4 services on 1 host)
16:18:41 <elliott> Well you didn't freaking tell me what they are!
16:19:00 <elliott> do i have to wait until the end?
16:19:06 <elliott> "TCP/IP fingerprint:" fun fun
16:19:25 <elliott> 10000/tcp open snet-sensor-mgmt?
16:19:25 <elliott> what is tcpwrapped, anyway?
16:19:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I saw this yesterday when an oper managed to auto-zline himself when trying to scan our servers for open ports. It tried too many times to quickly and server added a zline for 15 minutes. I guess he will be more careful when doing the security testing next time ;)
16:19:45 <elliott> wait, how did it not identify 80 as http?
16:20:17 <elliott> ok :9000 is http. inexplicably.
16:20:24 <Vorpal> elliott, tcpwrapped... hm.... I very very much doubt that. Unless it runs linux
16:20:45 <elliott> Vorpal: they both seem to be http
16:20:57 <elliott> in fact :9000 seems to be a crazy-slow version of :80
16:20:57 <elliott> (or i trashed its network stack by probing it...)
16:21:17 <elliott> now port 10000, that sounds interesting.
16:21:18 <Vorpal> elliott, tcpwrapped is related to the hosts.deny/hosts.allow files
16:21:55 <Vorpal> stuff like denyhosts and fail2ban and similar auto-block-bruteforce-login-attempts use it for example
16:22:12 <Vorpal> well that is an iirc for fail2ban, I only used denyhosts personally
16:22:27 <elliott> fail2ban always fails to ban
16:22:49 <Vorpal> elliott, a strange name for the software I always thought
16:23:13 <Vorpal> hm fail2ban seems to do iptables updates too
16:23:41 <Ilari> Or maybe "tcpwrapped" is printed if connection opens but remote end resets it immediately afterwards?
16:23:46 <elliott> bogons.net's LLU plans have reasonable usage limits :<
16:23:53 <elliott> well ok you can get it without
16:23:56 <elliott> but it's £10 more a month!
16:24:19 <elliott> and the non-LLU plans cap out at 8 Mb/s
16:25:07 <Vorpal> elliott, some googling (not a reliable source but meh, the suggestion seems plausible): http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-security-4/how-does-nmap-determine-a-port-is-tcpwrapped-773983/
16:25:07 <elliott> Vorpal: lol apparently you're not allowed to run irc bots on sixxs, only humans can chat
16:25:19 <elliott> (although even that's grudgingly...)
16:26:10 <Ilari> The route gives other endpoints IP inside tunnel even if its different from the one tunnel goes to?
16:26:23 <elliott> cool, guy got banned from sixxs for saying on their forums that opennic now does ipv6
16:26:56 <elliott> Vorpal: have you used hurricane electric's tunnel broker?
16:27:53 <elliott> Vorpal: omg, i've lagged my connection to hell by nmapping
16:28:34 <elliott> Vorpal: question. why don't freenode offer cloaks with a bot?
16:28:35 <Vorpal> elliott, no CTCP PING reply?
16:31:22 <elliott> Vorpal: i just got your ping now
16:31:22 <elliott> TOTALLY RESTARTING ROUTER OK
16:32:51 <elliott> LOAD THE REBOOT PAGE FASTER
16:33:40 <Vorpal> + Ping reply from elliott: 191.75 second(s)
16:33:41 <Vorpal> + Ping reply from elliott: 180.60 second(s)
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16:39:41 <Ilari> Vorpal: According to docs I have found, Linux IPSEC system itself decides when to encapsulate and does not require normal IP routes (except normal connectivity to remote end of tunnel)...
16:40:01 <Vorpal> Ilari, yes but you needed those absurd routes to make the ip go anywhere
16:40:19 <Vorpal> Ilari, otherwise it wouldn't even get as far as the ipsec subsystem
16:40:49 <Ilari> Dunno about tunnel mode... Transport mode definitely doesn't have any weird routes.
16:40:57 <Vorpal> Ilari, indeed, transport mode is sane
16:41:12 <Vorpal> Ilari, but not very useful for my use case
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16:42:32 <Ilari> Vorpal: BTW: There's joke that IPSec has been sabotaged by NSA.
16:43:52 <Slereah> http://209.222.11.132/media/flash/d/discosquirrels.swf
16:44:54 <Vorpal> Ilari, well If I would need to keep something really secret I wouldn't use a system based on x.509 at all. I would go for openssh
16:47:45 <Ilari> I don't mean sabotage that made it insecure, but sabotage that made it difficult to use...
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16:48:12 <elliott> and it didn't start the lan
16:48:52 <elliott> Vorpal: ...apparently my router's certificate is for "bear" now
16:50:00 <elliott> "If you're thinking about getting a generic cloak, though, please consider instead making a donation to Peer-Directed Projects Center. PDPC is the not-for-profit entity which runs the network. If you donate, you'll get a nice cloak by way of acknowledgement and have the satisfaction of knowing that you've helped the network and PDPC continue to grow."
16:50:31 <elliott> Vorpal: they so do not offer cloaks via bot.
16:52:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought you meant *to* bot
16:52:45 <Vorpal> + Ping reply from elliott: 191.75 second(s)
16:52:45 <Vorpal> + Ping reply from elliott: 180.60 second(s)
16:53:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, important issue with mrd6: while the daemon and the controlling tool for it are documented, the actual daemon configuration file format is not
16:53:38 <elliott> -NickServ- Insufficient parameters for LANGUAGE.
16:53:38 <elliott> -NickServ- Valid languages are: en ru
16:54:33 <Vorpal> elliott, since over a year by now iirc
16:54:46 <elliott> ok. too bad i don't see a single reason to use ssl!
16:54:56 <Vorpal> elliott, why did you ask then
16:54:58 <elliott> it would totally encrypt all my publicly-logged conversations here
16:55:02 <elliott> Vorpal: i almost thought i did
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16:56:02 <Ilari> Just to annoy FRA&co? :-)
16:56:49 <elliott> <elliott> i just ask a staffer for a cloak, right?
16:56:58 <elliott> Vorpal: what is it with these crazy fuckers who don't use tab complete?
16:57:09 <elliott> i think i regret using this nick :D
16:59:16 <Vorpal> elliott, or they have irc clients that use caps maybe?
16:59:29 <elliott> unless their irc client also chops off the last letter.
17:00:36 <Vorpal> eeLLLLIIOOTTTT, yeah it looks strange with just one t
17:01:05 <Vorpal> elliott, also I thought you already had a cloak?
17:01:06 <elliott> "Hi Elliot!" "It's two Ts dammit!" "Oh, sorry! Hi Eliott!"
17:01:15 <elliott> TOTALLY NEW EXPERIENCE FOR ME YOU UNDERSTAND
17:01:24 <Vorpal> elliott, did you read the guidelines?
17:01:35 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to have elliott_ linked to your main nick in nickserv
17:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, says their faq yes
17:01:47 <elliott> like no choice about it? iirc that was just a recommendation.
17:02:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it was more than a recommendation for getting cloaks
17:02:12 <Vorpal> or used to be at least
17:02:12 <elliott> Vorpal: well. i'll do it afterwards
17:02:19 <elliott> don't want to switch nick when a staffer's about and i've already asked
17:02:24 <elliott> let's hope they don't notice :p
17:04:04 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
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17:04:56 <elliott> Vorpal: i might add ghosting to my autoconnect :p
17:05:03 <elliott> ghost elliott, nick elliott, identify
17:05:11 <elliott> voila, no need for elliott_!
17:05:15 <elliott> Vorpal: although i have nick protection on
17:05:18 <elliott> so it's not like they'd last long anyway
17:05:43 <elliott> <lolcat93> mquin: I am 12. Will I get klined?
17:05:59 <elliott> Troll or bizarre? We report, you decide!
17:06:22 <elliott> Vorpal: QUICK should I work on leaden or botte
17:07:04 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, what was the difference?
17:07:27 <Vorpal> elliott, leaden. it will cause less disarray in this irc channel
17:07:56 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know what'd be nice? Enough hard drive space to make *remuxing* a DVD a practical archival method.
17:08:09 <elliott> Vorpal: but, but, FUN disarray!
17:08:26 <elliott> pikhq: dvd pfff dvd is for LOSERS
17:08:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well, do you want botte to be the first project coded inside leaden or not?
17:08:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Taking the bitstream out of a DVD ISO and sticking it into, say, mkv.
17:08:44 <Vorpal> elliott, if not, then you can do botte first
17:09:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, so, how much space does that need?
17:09:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, surely just a few GB
17:09:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: 4 to 8 gigs per disc.
17:09:24 <elliott> Vorpal: do you think i'm crazy enough to trust my editor with my code?!
17:09:35 <elliott> <mquin> lolcat93: not unless we have cause to <lolcat93> mquin: Aren't I breaking freenode policy?
17:09:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which actually isn't *terrible*, but it's still a bit much for 720x480 video.
17:09:51 <elliott> REMUX BLURAY FUUUUUUUUUCK YEAH
17:10:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: Of course, you might get it smaller if there's a lot of extra content you don't care about.
17:10:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, only temporary I presume?
17:10:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: ... That's the permanent storage space of a remuxed DVD.
17:10:35 <Vorpal> elliott, um, otherwise what would the point be. Of course, I would only trust it once it seemes somewhat stable
17:10:36 <pikhq> Just like a normal DVD.
17:10:40 <elliott> <mquin> lolcat93: you don't appear to be <lolcat93> mquin: I allready stated I am 12! <lolcat93> 12 years old! <lolcat93> But I have to go visit my ex
17:10:47 <elliott> Vorpal: do you realise how crazy my ideas are? i'm not *stupid* :-D
17:11:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, is it more than the original dvd!?
17:11:11 <elliott> <Ramius> lolcat93: But you aren't registered <Ramius> You need to be registered to break the policy, ergo, you're not breaking it ;; <-- this guy must be a nomic player
17:11:28 <pikhq> But DVDs take a lot of space.
17:12:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm I think that you discovered the DRM of the future. Make the things so high-def that pirating them becomes impractical
17:12:24 <Vorpal> of course it fails because you could just make it somewhat less high-def
17:12:40 <elliott> Vorpal: *wow,* it's actually policy that you have to be 13 or over to register with nickserv
17:12:45 <elliott> but it's alright to use the network at any age
17:12:54 <elliott> since when is an email address personal information?
17:13:00 <elliott> also this stops people going into channels that require registration
17:14:15 <Ilari> Yeah, stupid "think of the children!" laws...
17:14:24 <elliott> Vorpal: :D "Shame they don’t allow auto-identification using client-side SSL certificates, like OFTC does."
17:14:59 <Ilari> Because that would be too complicated?
17:15:13 <pikhq> GAH THIS DVD IS SO RETARDEDLY ENCODED
17:15:19 <elliott> Freenode is basically OFTC's retarded cousin
17:15:22 <Vorpal> elliott, oftc fails in some other aspects
17:15:37 <Vorpal> elliott, such as #esoteric not being there
17:15:48 <elliott> Vorpal: that's just because of hysterical raisins though :)
17:15:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, how is it encoded then
17:15:58 <elliott> (OFTC only being a year old at the time, for instance)
17:16:12 <elliott> Vorpal: the true, original esoteric channel is #esoterica on EFNet
17:16:22 <elliott> lament was the one who told andreou to move it to #esoteric on freenode
17:16:23 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounds like the other type of esotericness
17:16:25 <elliott> so we're all using an imitation!
17:16:29 <elliott> #esoteric was taken or something iirc :)
17:16:39 <elliott> see the 2002 Q4 mailing list archives
17:16:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's a TV series collection. It has all the episodes in a single title, with 31 chapters.
17:16:59 <Vorpal> elliott, is there anything left in the old channel
17:17:05 <Vorpal> elliott, also: what about logs for it back then
17:17:11 <elliott> Vorpal: probably not. also, none.
17:17:19 <elliott> and probably lament came in... once
17:18:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:18:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Wanna try and FIGURE OUT HOW MY ROUTER ENCODES ITS KEY TO FREEDOM?!?!8375389E5W8347F
17:18:26 <Vorpal> elliott, is "8375389E5W8347F" the key?
17:18:33 <Vorpal> elliott, also key to freedom in what sense?
17:18:43 <elliott> Vorpal: the configuration backup file
17:18:49 <elliott> i.e. almost certainly a tar with terrible XOR-encryption
17:18:49 <Vorpal> elliott, what about it
17:19:12 <elliott> by unpacking, adding stuff, repacking, and using it as the configuration to restore
17:19:26 <Vorpal> elliott, from my router backing up the config gives you an ini file. Trying to load it back will almost certainly fuck up the router and require a hard reset and then doing all the settings manually
17:19:30 <Vorpal> so a very very bad backup
17:20:05 <Vorpal> elliott, also hm, it has an sshd?
17:20:43 <elliott> Vorpal: that's why i'll put one in the initscript
17:20:57 <elliott> Vorpal: i.e. in the initscript, i'll have it download dropbear and start it
17:21:03 <elliott> Vorpal: i'll put dropbear in /etc
17:21:08 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. chances of that working?
17:21:13 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:21:17 <elliott> it worked for the livebox folks
17:21:26 <Vorpal> elliott, someone compiled dropbear for that arch?
17:21:35 <elliott> Vorpal: uhh, it'll just be mips or something.
17:21:48 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is probably not linux
17:21:53 <elliott> nmap doesn't identify the OS
17:21:56 <elliott> but routers do freaky shit anyway
17:22:13 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:22:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I suspect mine is vxworks, not sure though
17:22:45 <elliott> >>> rs = [''.join(chr(ord(c)^r) for c in list(x)) for r in range(0,256)]
17:22:54 <elliott> this may take a little while
17:23:04 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you doing
17:23:06 <elliott> or KB, dunno what Gnome reports it as
17:23:09 <elliott> Vorpal: trying all possible XORs
17:23:19 <Vorpal> elliott, and looking for what?
17:23:21 <elliott> then e.g. i'll look at all the ones that contain the string "sh"
17:23:31 <Vorpal> elliott, it could be compressed
17:23:42 <elliott> the livebox was just a plain tar
17:23:46 <elliott> Vorpal: takes up space on the router
17:23:55 <elliott> it's not like it's being transferred over a slow network
17:24:00 <Vorpal> elliott, the xor routine takes up space too
17:24:12 <elliott> Vorpal: to stop people doing what i'm doing.
17:24:20 <elliott> also, xoring every byte in a string is like
17:24:23 <Vorpal> elliott, also it could use a multi-byte key
17:24:24 <elliott> 10 bytes of machine code :P
17:24:35 <elliott> anyway, shut up, this is just my first avenue of investigation
17:24:42 <Vorpal> elliott, google not helpful on it?
17:24:58 <elliott> >>> rs_ = filter(lambda y: 'sh' in y, rs)
17:25:18 <elliott> >>> rs_ = filter(lambda y: '/sh' in y, rs)
17:25:40 <elliott> '\xaa)\x1f*K\x19\x85u49\xee\x81\xbb\xef\\cV\x7f \xff0\x99\x82\\~'
17:25:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I know mine is near impossible to replace firmware on. Google has a lot on it. But it boils down to "while the firmware file is obfuscated with xor and such, there is one thing we can't get past, an 1024-bit RSA signature"
17:25:57 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is hackable with jtag though
17:26:03 <Vorpal> elliott, but that requires soldering
17:26:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well it is an ADSL modem
17:26:35 <Vorpal> elliott, not just a router
17:26:40 <elliott> Vorpal: linksys sell one of those too :P
17:26:47 <elliott> also you could disable all the settings and plug it into a good router
17:26:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not sure how well my ISP would like not using one of theirs
17:27:05 <elliott> your isp probably has bigger issues :P
17:27:27 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but mine actually mostly do sane things, and it is not locked to that ISP. I could change to use a different ISP with it
17:28:21 <elliott> "XS4ALL teams up with Pirate Party International to launch ISPs in various countries"
17:28:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I have an ISP who *are actually working on implementing IPv6 for last-mile* and have *fully ipv6 supporting backbone since mid-2006*
17:28:37 <Vorpal> elliott, not as good as bogons or xs4all, but better than average
17:28:48 <elliott> Vorpal: right now i'm with Orange
17:28:50 <elliott> who are one of the big ones here
17:28:53 <elliott> and they're basically terrible.
17:29:10 <elliott> at least I get 800 KiB/s predictably
17:29:15 <elliott> <Scandinavia> Ha ha ha ha ha
17:29:17 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is one of the old ones. As in, the original one after it went "not just academical".
17:29:38 <Vorpal> well, original but it changed name
17:29:44 <Vorpal> still it uses the old name in some places
17:29:53 <Vorpal> even though it changed name in like 1995
17:29:59 <elliott> <Scandinavia> 800 KiB/s? Yeah, once all our cities were wiped out by nuclear bombs and we had to cope with 800 KiB/s for an hour.
17:30:10 <Vorpal> elliott, mail server was on old domain until last year!
17:30:18 <elliott> ISP mail! Yay! Who would ever use it?
17:30:31 <Vorpal> elliott, err, that was common back then
17:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, and well, my dad had the same email since 1994 :P
17:30:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:31:32 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway there wasn't much choice to ISP email
17:31:41 <Vorpal> until, like, the past 5-7 years
17:32:39 <elliott> it sads me that gmail isn't quite all it could be
17:32:44 <elliott> i just want to run my own qmail
17:33:12 <elliott> do you recognise this header?
17:33:25 <Vorpal> elliott, err, not really
17:33:37 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I was wondering why you didn't just use that
17:33:52 <Vorpal> elliott, also, did the xor take that long?
17:34:06 <elliott> well about 10 seconds. to do all 256 possible xors of a 110 KiB file.
17:34:08 <elliott> bear in mind this is python.
17:34:10 <Vorpal> elliott, xor is like, one of the fastest operations possible on a modern CPU
17:34:21 <elliott> Vorpal: it also converted from a one-byte string to a character
17:34:39 <Vorpal> elliott, why didn't you just use haskell?
17:35:00 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Downloads$ file ~/sdff
17:35:00 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Downloads$ file SE572_backup.bin
17:35:13 <Vorpal> elliott, generate all the variants as files
17:35:13 <elliott> the firmware upgrade may be a better route, but i see no way to test it
17:35:17 <elliott> other than dissecting a previous upgrade
17:35:51 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the brand/model?
17:36:06 <elliott> it appears to be Orange-specific.
17:36:13 <elliott> maybe another model rebranded for orange
17:36:46 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and I know someone who uses a cisco router at home. Because he had a spare one. It has the same CPU model as my desktop. (Sempron 3300+, 64-bit). And a CD-reader.
17:36:52 <Vorpal> I wish I had such a router
17:36:58 <Vorpal> would be power hungry I bet though
17:36:58 <elliott> /home/elliott/xyz219: Sendmail frozen configuration - version \332\254\274\016\362v\236\007O*\024]\241\351\006
17:37:10 <Vorpal> elliott, misdetection I suspect
17:37:21 <elliott> http://pastie.org/pastes/1227893/text?key=smb0pibj6th7rrkanurvg
17:37:27 <elliott> i like how it detects things as com
17:37:30 <elliott> like, everything is a valid com :P
17:37:32 <Vorpal> elliott, grep -v data is bad
17:37:38 <Vorpal> elliott, data could exist inside other ones
17:37:50 <elliott> /home/elliott/xyz254: DBase 3 data file
17:38:01 <elliott> /home/elliott/xyz126: DBase 3 data file with memo(s) (1554788450 records)
17:38:08 <elliott> lol at 1554788450 records though
17:38:14 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of weird stuff is detected as "DBase 3 data file" in my experience
17:38:35 <Vorpal> elliott, what is "SysEx File"?
17:38:46 <elliott> Vorpal: MIDI stuff, I think
17:39:24 <Vorpal> elliott, hm "MIPSEL-BE Ucode"?
17:39:42 <Vorpal> elliott, you could try strings on all those files
17:39:50 <Vorpal> elliott, and look for plausible things
17:40:03 <Vorpal> elliott, it could be a custom format
17:40:14 <Vorpal> elliott, look for known strings, like the configured SSID or whatever
17:40:28 <elliott> i think i might have given up :D
17:40:32 <elliott> good idea for that ssid though
17:40:49 <Vorpal> elliott, try finding SSID in the original file too
17:40:54 <Vorpal> it could be un-encrypted
17:41:27 <elliott> Vorpal: i'll give you access if you want to try and mess it up for me >:p
17:41:38 <Vorpal> elliott, to the config or the router?
17:41:55 <elliott> router, that'd let you download the config too... although actually no, i don't trust you
17:42:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I might take a quick look at the config, I doubt I'm in position to hijack your wlan from here
17:42:55 <elliott> Vorpal: well i am not entirely sure it does not store my password unencrypted.
17:43:00 <Vorpal> unless you have a very very very very very very very good directed antenna aimed at Sweden (and assuming that the signals bounce against the ionosphere, which I doubt)
17:43:04 <elliott> i could change it and diff the two files
17:43:05 <Vorpal> elliott, grep for it ;P
17:43:15 <Vorpal> elliott, that would certainly be interesting
17:43:25 <Vorpal> elliott, also: back it up again without changing
17:43:28 <Vorpal> elliott, there might be timestamps
17:43:36 <Vorpal> so you need to look for that as well
17:44:18 <elliott> Binary files SE572_backup.bin and new differ
17:44:25 <elliott> is there a bdiff designed for human use?
17:44:28 <elliott> wait i can diff the hexdump
17:44:42 <Vorpal> elliott, diff <(od < foo) <(od < bar)
17:45:03 <elliott> Vorpal: there are a ... lot of changes.
17:45:10 <Vorpal> elliott, only after a certain point?
17:45:14 <elliott> Vorpal: sure, it has rebooted since then, and the password has changed, but, a lot of changes.
17:45:18 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Router$ diff <(hexdump -C SE572_backup.bin) <(hexdump -C new) | wc -l
17:45:42 <elliott> oh, and the passwords were the same length
17:45:51 <Vorpal> elliott, are they all after some specific point?
17:46:07 <Vorpal> elliott, and after that point, nearly everything has changed?
17:46:23 <elliott> that means it's using actual encryption
17:46:27 <Vorpal> with IV chaining probably
17:46:38 <elliott> Vorpal: this is where i give up, yes?
17:47:07 <Vorpal> elliott, this is where you fetch the screwdriver and the soldering iron and the oscope!
17:47:20 <elliott> Vorpal: This is where I switch ISPs!
17:47:30 <Vorpal> elliott, remember to use digital probes, not analogue ones
17:47:44 <elliott> `addquote <Vorpal> elliott, remember to use digital probes, not analogue ones
17:47:49 <elliott> context is futile. uh, irrelevant.
17:48:06 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm going to fetch the hammer
17:48:09 <elliott> it's quite small, made of plastic
17:48:22 <Vorpal> elliott, look for jtag connectors on it
17:48:36 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of things have jtag in fact
17:48:48 <Vorpal> elliott, probably just holes for the connectors though
17:48:57 <Vorpal> no need to put an actual contact there
17:49:17 <Vorpal> elliott, jtag. You know what it is right?
17:49:28 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, probably just holes for the connectors though
17:49:29 <elliott> <Vorpal> no need to put an actual contact there
17:49:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well, a lot of consumer crap crap stuff has jtag. Both for debugging faulty units and for debugging during development of the model.
17:50:16 <Vorpal> elliott, but they don't put the actual physical connectors in retail units
17:50:30 <Vorpal> elliott, there is just the holes in the PCB left where it would have gone
17:50:50 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe i'll just get a device capable of dispensing specific electrical shocks
17:50:50 <Vorpal> elliott, ST585 (which I have) is such a case
17:50:53 <elliott> and operate directly on the pcb
17:51:20 <elliott> "Okay... so if I cause this bit to flip...right...now! it'll corrupt the disk in the right way that if I..."
17:51:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt it has a "disk"
17:51:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I CAN MODIFY ROM DAMMIT
17:51:49 <Vorpal> elliott, raw access to a flash controller is more likely
17:51:50 <elliott> it'll have some sort of flash storage
17:52:16 <Vorpal> elliott, it will be low level access to it. Not any sort of SATA or IDE interface to it
17:52:31 <elliott> wonder if anyone's written an fltk binding for scheme
17:53:11 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, if there aren't anything jtagish on there, you will have to resort to using a scope
17:53:19 <pikhq> You *might* be an obsessive freak about video quality when you go and grab DVD ISOs for the sole purpose of getting better encodes.
17:53:39 <pikhq> elliott: It's not ON Blu-ray!
17:53:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder when we will get UV-ray
17:53:53 <elliott> <incog> i would like to report myself for multiple kline evasions :)
17:54:06 <pikhq> Nor has it ever been aired in higher than 480p!
17:54:25 <elliott> WATCH A DIFFERENT FILM INSTEAD
17:54:34 <Vorpal> wait, why is bluetooth called "bluetooth"
17:55:02 <pikhq> elliott: TV series.
17:55:03 <elliott> The word Bluetooth is an anglicised version of Danish/Swedish Blåtand, the epithet of the tenth-century king Harald I of Denmark and parts of Norway who united dissonant Danish tribes into a single kingdom. The implication is that Bluetooth does the same with communications protocols, uniting them into one universal standard.[2][3][4]
17:55:12 <Vorpal> oh harald blåtand, right
17:55:14 <elliott> pikhq: Which series? Also: WATCH A DIFFERENT SERIES
17:55:19 <pikhq> elliott: Invader Zim.
17:55:35 <pikhq> elliott: Nobody's gone out and refilmed the animation cells, sadly.
17:55:38 <elliott> I don't watch anything that hasn't been aired or released in 1080p.
17:56:03 <pikhq> elliott: So, Doctor Who came into existence this year?
17:56:24 <elliott> pikhq: Quite interesting in medias res beginning.
17:56:29 <Vorpal> elliott, what?! how can you accept 2160p!?
17:56:36 <elliott> pikhq: I mean, this Doctor -- who is he? Where is he from? What is he doing?
17:56:45 <Vorpal> elliott, that's absurdly bad quality!
17:56:46 <elliott> I think it might be a psychological thriller.
17:56:50 <Vorpal> elliott, 4000p at least
17:56:53 <pikhq> elliott: And how's he the eleventh?
17:57:02 <elliott> pikhq: I think we are up for a FUCKTON of flashbacks.
17:57:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I only watch continuous video frames.
17:57:33 <elliott> Vorpal: That is, the frame is a function from [0,1] to [0,1]^3 (RGB).
17:57:35 <pikhq> elliott: They might air it in 576i for a retro feel, though.
17:57:39 <pikhq> elliott: And wouldn't that be awful?
17:57:45 <elliott> pikhq: Not if it's INTENTIONAL
17:57:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Although RGB is a bit insufficient.
17:58:01 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? So you are keeping your eyes closed all the time then? (quantum... discrete!)
17:58:04 <elliott> Vorpal: BUT I'LL JUST HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT
17:58:08 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, oh? So you are keeping your eyes closed all the time then? (quantum... discrete!)
17:58:13 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, not in time
17:58:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I only watch continuous *in time*
17:59:19 <elliott> Vorpal: In conclusion, I watch ([0,1]^3)^(R * [0,1]^2).
17:59:47 <Vorpal> elliott, but since the real world isn't continuous in time... Lets just say it explains why I don't have a lot of scrollback, it would need a huge braille terminal!
18:00:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I only watch those that have only imaginary colours
18:00:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Ah yes, like the Discworld movies.
18:00:54 <elliott> My display reproduces octarine perfectly.
18:01:28 <Vorpal> elliott, and lets not just get started on my audio requirements!
18:02:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I hope you don't use a silly notion of bits and kHz.
18:02:24 <elliott> You seem like the kind of man who would use [0,1]^R.
18:02:39 <elliott> A continuous signal of infinite bits!
18:05:33 <Vorpal> elliott, perfect binaural of course
18:08:03 * Sgeo leaves the hot water in the sink running for 7min
18:08:22 <Sgeo> To be sure that it will stay hot
18:08:31 <Sgeo> The house is breaking down
18:08:45 <Sgeo> If it stays hot, maybe I can take a shower in my house!
18:08:52 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:08:59 <Sgeo> (not from the sink water)
18:10:15 <elliott> Vorpal: "It's useful, but not required, to have an alternate nick grouped to your account. For example, if your primary nick is foo:
18:10:16 -!- elliott has changed nick to foo_.
18:10:20 -!- foo_ has changed nick to elliott.
18:10:27 <elliott> you can imagine the next line
18:11:29 <Sgeo> They actually said "whoops :D"?
18:17:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:20:18 <asiekierka> only so i can get Windows for Workgroups 3.11 run from an USB thumbdrive
18:20:26 <asiekierka> and 386 Win3x support requires a special kernel compile
18:20:55 <pikhq> That's a bit bizarre. :)
18:23:40 <elliott> pikhq: "We will probably, but not definitely, end up working in Java." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky, ages ago, on the Seed AI project, making present Eliezer Yudkowsky very embarrassed indeed
18:24:06 <pikhq> How incredibly embarassing.
18:24:30 <elliott> I think that's the first time I've ever seen you typo.
18:24:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:25:02 <elliott> pikhq: I'm just lovin' the thought that a standard-ish computer could be expected to run *Java* code fast enough to... to anything.
18:25:21 <pikhq> elliott: I typo somewhat often, IMO.
18:26:06 <pikhq> I'm going to guess you get the impression that I never typo simply because I actually try to spell things right (like most programmers). :P
18:26:26 <elliott> pikhq: I just never see you use anything other than perfect English. Thinkos, yes, but not typos.
18:26:41 <elliott> I try and spell correctly but grammar I am much less concerned about :p
18:27:02 <elliott> grammar i get right, i just tend to omit... punctuation
18:27:07 <pikhq> I do mistype things fairly often.
18:27:20 <pikhq> And spelling, eh, I sometimes forget. Maybe once or twice a day.
18:29:30 <pikhq> It's very very annoying to try and get things set up to be easily encodable when you're having to dump the VOB stream for episodes FROM THE FREAKING CHAPTERS of a single title.
18:30:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:30:04 <elliott> pikhq: dd bs=[whatever] if=/dev/cdrom of=movie.iso
18:30:21 <pikhq> elliott: See, I've got the ISOs already.
18:30:31 <pikhq> elliott: I want them in h264'd mkvs.
18:30:47 <pikhq> mplayer dvd://chapter/path-to-iso.iso
18:31:13 <elliott> pikhq: just keep it like that then :D
18:31:26 <pikhq> It works just fine, but it's kinda annoying. Especially when you're going to need to do some processing to make the video not suck.
18:32:02 <pikhq> (invert the 2:3 pulldown, deinterlace the random chunks of not 2:3 pulldown... Ugh.)
18:32:21 <pikhq> Oh, and probably completely omit the Spanish audio track.
18:32:32 <elliott> pikhq: why not just pirate it from the start?
18:32:36 <elliott> ais523: have you had any esolang ideas recently?
18:32:38 <pikhq> elliott: I pirated the ISOs.
18:32:59 <pikhq> Because all the other encodes had INSUFFICIENT AUDIO QUALITY
18:33:10 <ais523> you lose track after a while
18:33:33 <ais523> I've been spending more time recently trying (and failing) to exploit a buffer overflow in NetHack
18:33:35 <pikhq> Most encodes are going to have sane audio quality; you're generally going to just copy the AC3 stream.
18:33:50 <elliott> ais523: Vorpal saw you on NAO, I think
18:33:51 <ais523> because a stupid full stop keeps getting in the way
18:33:53 <elliott> killing yourself repeatedly?
18:33:59 <ais523> elliott: no, wouldn't have been me
18:34:09 <elliott> ais523: he said you wrote the bot though; probably he just meant TAEB
18:34:10 <pikhq> (192kbps for stereo AC3? What's the *point* in transcoding it?)
18:34:22 <ais523> well, I haven't run TAEB523 recently either
18:34:33 <elliott> ais523: Vorpal probably grossly overestimates how much of TAEB you wrote
18:34:42 <elliott> ais523: it was killing itself repeatedly on dlvl 1 by kicking a wand of wishing, apparently
18:34:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I know he wrote one of those AIs only
18:35:09 <ais523> that was a) only three kills, and b) years ago
18:35:15 <elliott> ais523: no, it was days ago
18:35:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> killing yourself repeatedly? <-- deathrobin?
18:35:30 <ais523> Vorpal: has someone been doing wowdeath again?
18:35:31 <elliott> Vorpal: you said a few days ago
18:35:36 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, I've also got this thing about retaining things like audio commentary; most people don't.
18:35:37 <Vorpal> ais523, not that I know of
18:35:39 <elliott> kicking a wand of wishing repeatedly
18:35:42 <elliott> ... yes you did, you said it
18:35:45 <Vorpal> ais523, I haven't connected to nao for weeks
18:35:54 <ais523> elliott: I think it's just a timescale confusion, somehow
18:36:00 <Vorpal> elliott, you are mixing me up with someone else
18:36:01 <elliott> 22:36:03 <pikhq> Someone reverse engineered Nethack's PRNG... And then logged onto a public server, killed himself on the first level by kicking a wand of wishing, three times a day.
18:36:06 <ais523> (I was surprised, because the bug wowdeath exploited was fixed)
18:36:09 <elliott> 22:36:25 <Gregor> pikhq: Uhhhhh
18:36:09 <elliott> 22:36:33 <pikhq> http://alt.org/nethack/player-all.php?player=WowDeath Yes.
18:36:09 <elliott> 22:36:46 <pikhq> Gregor: He could have done a bunch of ascensions, but that's funnier.
18:36:09 <elliott> 22:38:47 <pikhq> Oh, whaddya know. ais523 developed the bot that does that.
18:36:15 <ais523> (and later, the bug Adeon exploited was fixed too)
18:36:25 <elliott> i don't know where he got your name from though
18:36:55 <elliott> "On the WowDeath account, I killed myself by kicking wands of wishing on the first level — three times in one day." --sartak, TAEB blog
18:37:07 <elliott> pikhq: did you think ais523 wrote all the TAEB code or something? :p
18:37:08 <pikhq> It was linked to from the TAEB blog, which listed ais523 as one of the developers.
18:37:11 <ais523> elliott: I wrote one of the AIs for TAEB; Sartak, who owned WoWdeath, was the original author for TAEB
18:37:26 <elliott> ais523 had no part in it actually :P
18:37:30 <pikhq> elliott: No, I just misphrased it. I should have said something like "ais523 was *a* developer for the bot that does that."
18:37:36 <elliott> pikhq: TAEB didn't do it, though.
18:37:40 <ais523> pikhq: I /am/ one of the developers for TAEB, but TAEB wasn't involved in the RNG exploit
18:37:44 <elliott> It was another bot by someone else who happens to develop TAEB.
18:37:48 <pikhq> Oh, I misinterpreted.
18:37:48 <elliott> (Well, was the original developer of. But.)
18:37:54 <Vorpal> I played deathrobin once for the fun of it. I got a new one iirc. IIRC I was first with something along the lines of "dying from jumping out of beartrap while punished and hallucinating"
18:37:58 <ais523> Sartak's been missing for a while
18:38:03 <Vorpal> most saner ones were already done
18:38:08 <elliott> ais523: literally missing?
18:38:19 <ais523> elliott: hasn't turned up in #nethack or #interhack
18:38:39 <ais523> I'm not sure offhand; probably around a year
18:38:57 <elliott> ais523: that's very worrying
18:39:07 <ais523> elliott: we think he just moved on to other projects
18:39:13 <elliott> hmm, he works for best practical
18:39:22 <elliott> so you'd probably hear if he died or something
18:39:31 <ais523> and his twitter account's still being used, that's a quick way to check
18:39:39 <elliott> ais523: ah, he's committed to github recently
18:39:42 <elliott> to the bestpractical account
18:40:14 <ais523> yep, I doubt he's vanished off the face of the Earth
18:40:18 <ais523> just from the NetHack community
18:40:30 <pikhq> Alright, got the vob streams dumped.
18:41:34 <pikhq> Now to experiment with how best to get the video to not suck
18:41:45 <ais523> elliott: it's kind-of annoying, because he owns the machine on which my TAEB repo is hosted
18:41:56 <ais523> and although the machine still works, my SSH key doesn't, and the account doesn't have a password
18:41:59 <elliott> ais523: btw, i'm about to give you a flashback
18:42:29 <elliott> did your vision go greyscale? did events repeat?! did they:?!?!?!
18:43:10 <ais523> elliott: my vision goes greyscale whenever there's insufficient light for my cones to function correctly
18:43:35 <ais523> (which doesn't happen all that often, given the amount of light in the modern-day world even at night)
18:43:35 <elliott> ais523: wow, you approached zzo38 a bit there
18:43:56 <elliott> ais523: zzo38, btw, is now planning to make his own implementation of *TeX*
18:44:01 <elliott> to include in his linux distribution
18:44:03 <ais523> elliott: heh, most people can be like that; it's just zzo38 who does it as a way of life
18:44:26 <ais523> elliott: you just have to wait for him to reimplement the rest of the userland and the kernel too
18:44:28 <elliott> gotta meet him IRL before i die.
18:44:30 <ais523> and then we'll have a new free OS
18:45:26 <elliott> Vorpal: invented TAEB, did wowdeath
18:45:43 <elliott> chronology of the first two may be backwards
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18:46:55 <Vorpal> elliott, sure about the chronology of the third?
18:47:14 <elliott> as ais523 has said, he's not in nethack channels any more.
18:47:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well, then I guess there is a chance time travel was not involved
18:47:43 <ais523> wow, this conversation has degenerated into pointlessness pretty rapidly
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18:48:41 <Vorpal> ais523, you slept too well then (not tired enough to think rather silly and not really funny things are funny)
18:48:52 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm rarely /that/ tired
18:49:38 <ais523> although your observation then explains a lot
18:49:41 <Vorpal> ais523, oh. Happens to be on regular basis. I guess the individual tiredness threshold differs
18:49:43 <ais523> especially if s/tired/drunk/
18:49:50 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm a teetotaller
18:50:05 <elliott> ais523: he just gets drunk on boring
18:50:10 <ais523> (um, that's a semantic s///, not a textual substitution one)
18:50:12 <elliott> his boring accumulates over the course of a day
18:50:19 <elliott> leading tot he observed effects
18:50:21 <ais523> elliott: I'm a teetotaller too, but am still capable of getting effectively drunk
18:50:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you promised to never be mean to me, remember?
18:50:39 <ais523> or occasionally just on vapour
18:50:50 <elliott> Vorpal: only when GreaseMonkey was around
18:51:17 <Vorpal> elliott, retroactively adding clauses is cheating
18:51:54 <ais523> where does that myth come from, fiction?
18:52:05 <Vorpal> ais523, I was just thinking of asking the same thing
18:52:07 <elliott> ais523: what, crossing fingers?
18:52:18 <ais523> elliott: for the purpose of making a signature invalid?
18:52:29 <Vorpal> ais523, how does it make sense?
18:52:31 <elliott> crossing fingers for luck, don't know
18:52:42 <elliott> Vorpal: it makes about as much sense as cooties
18:53:00 <ais523> come to think of it, if there was proof that a) you did cross your fingers while signing, and b) the other person should have interpreted it as a sign that you weren't really agreeing to the contract or whatever
18:53:06 <ais523> then the contract probably isn't correctly agreed
18:53:27 <Vorpal> oh yeah that makes no sense
18:53:33 <elliott> (but the other party can look first, so you have to e.g. cross your toes)
18:54:02 <Vorpal> elliott, is crossing toes valid?
18:54:03 <ais523> playground law is famous for a) making no sense at all, and b) being inconsistent from person to person
18:54:06 <ais523> it leads to really bizarre arguments
18:54:17 <elliott> Vorpal: well. probably. but people will hate you
18:54:46 <elliott> ais523: clearly, we need playground judges
18:55:01 <Vorpal> ais523, btw, do you know how insane the linux ipsec tunnel implementation is?
18:55:21 <ais523> I'm guessing from the fact you asked the question that it's insane, though
18:55:29 <Vorpal> ais523, would you expect it to use some of pseudo-interface, such as a tun interface?
18:55:46 <ais523> Vorpal: I wouldn't really expect anything, due to caring insufficiently about the details
18:56:38 <pikhq> Seems that the pullup filter does wonderful, wonderful things to this video.
18:57:00 <pikhq> Namely, it gets out sane, 24fps video.
18:57:28 <Vorpal> ais523, well, it doesn't use one. Instead it uses some kind of ipsec policy and weird route. Weird route like: "<ip of other endpoint in tunnel> via <your normal standard gateway> metric 0 proto static" (otherwise the packet wouldn't get far enough to be redirected to the tunnel).
18:57:56 <ais523> hmm, sometimes the only difference between Vorpal and zzo38 is that Vorpal gives you the context
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18:58:00 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure which way I like better
18:58:08 <Vorpal> ais523, and doing wireshark at either tunnel end point makes the packages show up twice, once as encrypted and once as decrypted (I verified with a third computer that was not actually sent over the wire)
18:58:42 <elliott> ais523: <Vorpal> ais523, well, it doesn't use one. Instead it uses some kind of ipsec policy and weird route. Weird route like: "<ip of other endpoint in tunnel> via <your normal standard gateway> metric 0 proto static" (otherwise the packet wouldn't get far enough to be redirected to the tunnel).
18:58:42 <Vorpal> ais523, is that bad or good?
18:58:45 <elliott> ais523: is pretty close to a zzo line...
18:59:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't use *quite* as awkward grammar.
18:59:17 <Vorpal> elliott, and he is in here you know
18:59:22 <ais523> Vorpal: I wasn't thinking about the grammar at all
18:59:47 <Vorpal> elliott, "if you rephrased what you just said, you could make it sound like someone else, but you don't need to do that, if you don't want to, that is"
19:00:13 <elliott> Vorpal: you are completely missing the non-grammatical aspects of zzo's personality...
19:00:16 <ais523> still, one of the joys about IRC and/or Usenet is that you can basically talk about anything
19:00:23 <pikhq> Aaaaw, not *quite*.
19:00:27 <elliott> ais523: usenet -- as long as it's spam
19:00:27 <ais523> and one of the other joys is that you don't necessarily have to listen
19:00:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well I know about them too, but they don't stand out quite as much as the grammatical ones
19:00:55 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounded very much like someone else.
19:01:02 <Vorpal> elliott, someone from xkcd I think
19:01:12 <ais523> elliott: mentally filtering out Usenet spam isn't too hard, around as hard as mentally filtering out email spam
19:01:20 <elliott> ais523: do you have a spam filter?
19:01:25 <ais523> slightly harder than mentally filtering out adverts
19:01:42 <ais523> elliott: for email, there are two competing spam filters checking my email, neither of which is under my control
19:01:54 <Vorpal> I have yet to come across a good usenet spamfilter. I guess no one really cares about writing one
19:02:14 <ais523> and I assume the yahoo account is also spam-filtered, although perhaps not (the "spam" folder rarely gets anything, and when it does it's generally a legit email)
19:02:44 <ais523> Vorpal: apparently, most Usenet servers other than Google Groups are pretty good at filtering it
19:02:51 <elliott> has anyone used a BSD in a VM?
19:03:02 <ais523> elliott: it would be implausible if they hadn't
19:03:05 <quintopia> ais523: the primary joy of irc is that you can talk about nothing
19:03:18 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, the one I use drastically lowered spam amount about half a year ago
19:03:27 <Vorpal> ais523, but there are no good client-integrated ones
19:03:30 <ais523> (I'm assuming that second nickping was a joke, rather than a mistake?)
19:03:32 <Vorpal> as there are in many email clients
19:03:51 <Vorpal> <elliott> has anyone used a BSD in a VM? <-- yes
19:04:02 <elliott> Vorpal: which (BSD and VM)?
19:04:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I used freebsd (64-bit) in virtualbox (with Intel's VT stuff) about 4 months ago9
19:04:35 <Vorpal> elliott, don't have the install around any longer it seems
19:04:51 <elliott> i'm trying to do 32-bit netbsd and i don't have vt.
19:05:03 <elliott> neither virtualbox nor qemu can boot it OOTB
19:05:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well, you need vt for the 64-bit stuff in virtualbox
19:05:12 <elliott> but then i get network issues
19:05:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I never got network to work under qemu for any OS. Never tried very hard though
19:05:54 <elliott> hell, i got it working in NT 4 for MIPS.
19:06:04 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't with plan9, which was the last thing I used under qemu
19:06:20 <elliott> it would probably have if you tweaked the plan9 config
19:06:20 <ais523> Vorpal: it works pretty trivially (I can't remember whether it needs a command-line option or not), but you don't get an externally visible IP
19:06:24 <ais523> I think it does some sort of NATing
19:06:36 <elliott> ais523: no option needed; it has a default
19:06:51 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, but well then venti decided to lock up and I had other stuff to do :P
19:06:55 <Vorpal> so I never got that far
19:07:02 <elliott> mknod segfaults when booting netbsd livecd in virtualbox
19:07:20 <Vorpal> ais523, virtualbox NATs too by default
19:07:30 <Vorpal> elliott, your system is jinxed
19:07:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I used netbsd (again 64-bit) about a year ago under virtualbox (again intel vt stuff)
19:08:19 <elliott> also, vt is slower than virtualbox software emulation iirc :)
19:08:22 <elliott> or at least it was a few years ago
19:08:25 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on the OS
19:08:42 <Vorpal> elliott, in my experience it varies widely from case to case which is fastest
19:09:04 <Vorpal> elliott, and it is required for 64-bit guests, so...
19:09:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I hate to say it, but the only OS I found "snappy" under virtualbox was 64-bit xp pro.
19:09:53 <Vorpal> elliott, it is fast enough to feel like "almost native"
19:10:15 <elliott> the bsds have always sucked at VMs :
19:10:33 <elliott> and i am almost certain it will not like all my hardware, so i'm not about to install it without playing first
19:10:47 <Vorpal> elliott, oh yes, I remember freebsd was a pain to get working back in vmware server (this was before virtualbox existed, or before it was widely known at least)
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19:11:20 <pikhq> Okay, it *seems* that what's happening is that this video is occasionally using the wrong field order.
19:11:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, is it interlaced or something?
19:12:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's telecined poorly.
19:13:23 <pikhq> I'm *trying* to get mplayer's filters to do the "right thing".
19:15:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, btw, you said it would be nice to be able to store dvds remuxed. And said about 8 gb for each. I just thought about that number.... That means a 128 on a 1 TiB disk.... You would need a large RAID array to be able to store any decent number of dvds that way
19:15:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
19:15:49 <elliott> Vorpal: you have more than 128 dvds?
19:16:13 <Vorpal> elliott, no, but I don't think pikhq is average. After all he said he had all SNES roms :P
19:16:44 <olsner> you can get at least 2TB disks nowadays, that'd be 256 DVD:s per disk
19:16:46 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:16:55 <elliott> I plan to build a huuuuge RAID at one point
19:17:09 <elliott> like 5-10 TiB, preferably enough to have that mirrored too
19:17:14 <elliott> disk is only getting cheaper!
19:17:27 <elliott> think of the unholy racket those disks will make!
19:17:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I think I finally reached a system that will last for more than one year before it starts to get cramped
19:17:34 <olsner> wow, a 5 disk raid array, that's huuuuge
19:17:44 <elliott> olsner: well, no, it'd be 10
19:17:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, I have more than 600 GB unallocated!
19:17:50 <elliott> assuming 1 TiB disks and mirroring
19:17:54 <elliott> olsner: and that *is* huge for home usage
19:18:06 <elliott> ...i guess i could network it somewhere so i don't have to see or hear it, but then access time would suffer
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19:18:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I talked to someone yesterday who recently installed a 60 TB RAID thingy. Hardware RAID, iSCSI, infiband. You name it.
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19:19:02 <Vorpal> elliott, sadly not for home usage
19:19:11 <elliott> Vorpal: if it was for home usage I'd... just want to punch him
19:19:19 <Vorpal> elliott, no that would be bad
19:19:23 <elliott> because 60 TiB for home usage is wasteful to the max :)
19:19:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, you would be a prime suspect when it goes missing!
19:19:41 <elliott> Vorpal: HEY I WOULD DIVIDE IT INTO SIX AND DISTRIBUTE IT AMONG THE PEOPLE
19:20:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt it, would need reconfiguring. And iirc it used 2 redundant RAID controllers, not 6
19:20:37 <Vorpal> well, for the top level that is
19:20:47 <Vorpal> it was of course multi-layered
19:20:55 <Vorpal> you just don't run plain RAID6 on that :P
19:21:22 <elliott> it is actually ridiculous how cheap disk is getting
19:22:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah well, you wouldn't use desktop disks in such an array
19:22:36 <elliott> you can get 5 TB at 5400 rpm for $300
19:22:50 <elliott> <elliott> because 60 TiB for home usage is wasteful to the max :)
19:22:56 <Vorpal> elliott, you would use server disks, which are smaller, generally higher RPM, lasts longer, and more expensive
19:23:04 <elliott> not for a home system though :)
19:23:14 <elliott> how much disk does RAID 5 get you again?
19:23:45 <elliott> smallest_size * (drives - 1)
19:23:52 <elliott> pikhq: you disagreed with that last time, didn't you?
19:23:57 <Vorpal> well, yeah you don't use different sized drivers in general
19:24:23 <elliott> anyway, then, you can get 4 TB of RAID 5'd 5400 rpm storage for $300
19:24:26 <elliott> going by the wikipedia article
19:24:55 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, if you do software raid (you almost certainly will), and don't care about RAID1 for swap. Don't do RAID0 for those partitions. That is just wasteful and also messes with suspend to disk.
19:25:05 <Vorpal> elliott, what you do is assign both same priority in fstab
19:25:11 <Vorpal> then the kernel will interleave writes
19:25:13 <elliott> Vorpal: this wouldn't be an OS drive
19:25:17 <elliott> it'd be an additional mounted drive
19:25:22 <elliott> *probably* over the network
19:25:33 <ais523> elliott: you want a massive drive just for spare storage purposes?
19:25:37 <elliott> is there a way to do a local network storage device without using nfs or anything of the sort?
19:25:48 <elliott> i just want the equivalent of a really long cable :)
19:25:51 <elliott> ais523: no, it'd be for bulk storage
19:26:08 <ais523> elliott: that's pretty much what I meant
19:26:08 <elliott> ais523: e.g. media (movies, tv series, etc.), large data sets
19:26:14 <ais523> I suppose it could make sense for some people
19:26:20 <elliott> ais523: well, i wouldn't really go for 5 TiB unless i needed it
19:26:30 <ais523> although I grew up on floppy disks, and am horrified at the large file sizes of today
19:26:33 <elliott> but 1 TB i can see myself usnig up
19:26:35 <Vorpal> elliott, do you realise that you want two NICs then?
19:26:46 <elliott> pikhq: you disagreed with wikipedia last time
19:26:46 <Vorpal> elliott, you want a dedicated SAN
19:26:57 <olsner> I use CIFS for my networked storage
19:26:58 <elliott> when wikipedia said that it would give smallest_drive * (num_of_drives - 1)
19:27:02 <elliott> ais523: oh, i dislike large filesizes for no reason
19:27:05 <pikhq> elliott: It should be smallest_size * (drives - 1) for RAID 5, yeah...
19:27:10 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't want this over your normal ethernet. because as far as I remember, it is not friendly to other traffic
19:27:12 <elliott> ais523: but e.g. HD video is large because it's high quality
19:27:24 <Vorpal> I wonder how badly swap over iSCSI would work
19:27:35 <ais523> elliott: "high quality"? HD is 1024x768, isn't it?
19:27:39 <Vorpal> it seems likely that if kernel is trying to swap because lack of memory that would be a really really bad idea
19:27:51 <elliott> ais523: 720p, the lowest HD, is 1280x720
19:28:04 <elliott> ais523: 1080p, i.e. something that actually looks high-definition, is 1920x1080
19:28:32 <pikhq> And 1080i is a monstrosity.
19:28:32 <elliott> ais523: now consider that you use a high quality video format, like H.264, encoded with a good codec with settings optimised for quality, like x264...
19:28:37 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: iSCSI + distributed network filesystem (several computers can access the same *physical* storage unit at once, writing to the same file system. And no, not like nfs.
19:28:46 <ais523> elliott: well, I think that all existing video codecs suck
19:28:46 <elliott> ais523: and you get a movie that takes up quite some gigabytes
19:28:54 <ais523> especially at things they aren't designed for
19:28:57 <Vorpal> you need one of those cluster FSes
19:29:01 <elliott> ais523: x264 is designed very well
19:29:07 <Vorpal> like. ocfs2 or whatever the other one was called
19:29:07 <elliott> for live action and animation video
19:29:12 <ais523> idling #tasvideos, you get lots of discussions about how to get computer games looking as realistic as possible
19:29:15 <elliott> Dark Shikari is basically obsessive about it
19:29:17 <Vorpal> ais523, elliott, 4000p!
19:29:20 <ais523> and x264 is an awful codec for those
19:29:25 <elliott> ais523: right, well, that's not what it's designed for
19:29:33 <ais523> I imagine MNG would be better, but nobody really supports it
19:29:37 <elliott> live action and animated TV/movies it encodes superbly
19:29:44 <elliott> it's pretty much the highest you can get
19:29:55 <elliott> i mean, there's a reason the highest-quality blu-ray releases use H.264
19:29:57 <ais523> elliott: it tends to disintegrate with fast-moving backgrounds
19:30:01 <elliott> and x264 is by far the best H.264 codec
19:30:11 <elliott> ais523: maybe pixely ones.
19:30:14 <pikhq> ais523: Believe me, other lossy codecs are worse.
19:30:24 <ais523> elliott: things like tickertape falling from the ceiling
19:30:24 <Vorpal> ais523, why use a lossy codec?
19:30:26 <ais523> pikhq: oh, I believe you
19:30:30 <pikhq> ais523: Also, what bitrate are you guys trying this at?
19:30:35 <ais523> Vorpal: because lossless leads to insane filesizes?
19:30:35 <elliott> Vorpal: you have no idea how big lossless video is.
19:30:42 <elliott> pikhq: oh, i've heard ais523 talking about these guys
19:30:46 <elliott> pikhq: they're serious encoder dudes
19:30:49 <elliott> like tweaking settings all day
19:30:56 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I do. Several TB for a normal movie.
19:30:57 <elliott> so i don't doubt that x264 fails at what they're doing
19:31:09 <ais523> pikhq: they produce videos encoded in such an insane way that only VLC can handle the resulting videos
19:31:12 <elliott> Vorpal: In HD... probably ... like... 50 TiB.
19:31:12 <pikhq> elliott: For pixellated sources, I'd *imagine* that lossless would be at tolerable size.
19:31:22 <elliott> *Not even movie editing is done losslessly*.
19:31:27 <elliott> They use a very high-quality lossy codec.
19:31:35 <elliott> As soon as they start editing it on a computer.
19:31:43 <elliott> And even *that* requires insane RAID to store.
19:31:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I read about digital editing systems for those multi-IMAX-on-a-sphere cinemas.
19:32:02 <pikhq> ais523: Most Linux media players use the same video handling routines; libavcodec is pretty much THE way to play video.
19:32:05 <elliott> Vorpal: wait, how are you supposed to see everything?
19:32:05 <pikhq> IIRC even VLC uses it.
19:32:10 <elliott> what if someone gets murdered behind you? :p
19:32:14 <Vorpal> elliott, err, half-sphere
19:32:30 <ais523> pikhq: well, I know that Totem at least fails on the things with variable video framerates but constant audio framerates
19:32:35 <elliott> pikhq: "Many of VLC's codecs are provided by the libavcodec library from the FFmpeg project, but it uses mainly its own muxer and demuxers."
19:32:36 <Vorpal> elliott, there is one in Stockholm. Pretty impressive.
19:32:43 <elliott> the muxers and demuxers would matter in ais523's example there
19:32:44 <Vorpal> elliott, ever been to one?
19:32:50 <elliott> Vorpal: no -- not even an IMAX
19:33:03 <pikhq> ais523: mplayer fails at *encoding* such things, but I'm pretty sure it handles them just fine.
19:33:11 <Vorpal> elliott, the one in stockholm have like 7 separate IMAX-projectors with special lenses.
19:33:13 <pikhq> elliott: Well, it's actually just *barely* possible to get lossless compressed video going on normal hardware... For SD.
19:33:50 <Vorpal> elliott, and speakers spread out all over behind the half-sphere thingy
19:34:38 <ais523> elliott: I'm personally unconvinced that DCT is a sensible way to encode video
19:35:01 <ais523> it makes sense for low-frequency images, but there are better ways to encode segments of images that you know are low-frequency
19:35:08 <elliott> clearly we should use a Slow Fourier Transform
19:35:11 <pikhq> (I, for kicks, did that with Elephant's Dream. They distribute PNG-per-frame for it... 21G for 10 minutes of video.)
19:35:29 <elliott> pikhq: please tell me you made it into an MNG
19:35:32 <pikhq> Oh, wait. That's the 1080p.
19:35:38 <ais523> for high-frequency images, the results it produces don't really correspond to the original
19:35:54 <elliott> pikhq: so a 100 minute movie could be only 210G?
19:36:09 <pikhq> elliott: If *compressed losslessly*, yes.
19:36:25 <pikhq> And that's for 1080p.
19:36:28 <elliott> pikhq: but that'll be the result, which will have been edited
19:36:30 <pikhq> That's actually entirely practical.
19:36:33 <ais523> really, the descriptions of DCT I see - decompose the image into frequency components, delete the ones with low amplitude - in practice effectively becomes "decompose the image into frequency components, ignore the high-frequency ones"
19:36:35 <Vorpal> ais523, do professional movie productions try to avoid it or something?
19:36:53 <pikhq> Slightly painful, sure, but it's entirely practical to do lossless video editing.
19:36:56 <ais523> Vorpal: no, because all JPEG-like codecs are based on it, effectively
19:37:00 <ais523> for both images and video
19:37:03 <elliott> pikhq: the images that the png are
19:37:07 <elliott> will be frames from a lossy video
19:37:10 <elliott> in a high-quality lossy codec
19:37:13 <elliott> that the film was edited in
19:37:21 <Vorpal> ais523, I meant, try to avoid stuff where it gives bad results
19:37:32 <pikhq> elliott: No, no, no. The Elephant's Dream 1080p PNG files are the *output from the 3D renderer*.
19:37:39 <elliott> pikhq: oh. fair enough then :D
19:37:56 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/JPEG_JFIF_and_2000_Comparison.png jpeg 200: worse than jpeg!
19:38:07 <ais523> wouldn't the input to the 3D renderer be considerably smaller?
19:38:13 <ais523> that would make a better codec in that example
19:38:22 <elliott> ais523: but decompression would take many, many hours
19:38:23 <ais523> except for the fact that it would take too long to decode
19:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the point of that format
19:38:31 <elliott> Vorpal: jpeg 2000? it's the official successor to jpeg
19:38:39 <pikhq> ais523: Yes. They distribute *that* on the DVDs.
19:38:47 <pikhq> Along with the actual DVD video.
19:38:54 <Vorpal> elliott, is that just a worst-case image? Or is that representative of the general results?
19:38:59 <elliott> Vorpal: well it is a small image
19:39:03 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_2000
19:39:20 <elliott> "JPEG 2000 has many design commonalities with the ICER image compression format that is used to send images back from the Mars rovers."
19:39:26 <ais523> now, you can imagine something larger than the actual sources, but similar
19:39:50 <Vorpal> elliott, no one uses jpeg 2000, and it has been around for years
19:39:52 <ais523> something like a 3D input format that's partially rendered
19:40:14 <ais523> hmm, theory: is it possible to cache things between frames when 3D rendering?
19:40:22 <ais523> I see no theoretical reason why it /wouldn't/ be, at least in some cases
19:40:40 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICER
19:40:58 <ais523> hmm, theory: is it possible to cache things between frames when 3D rendering?
19:41:11 <Vorpal> ais523, you asked that already
19:41:18 <ais523> *(it's this sort of reasoning that lead to me working on that roguelike routing algorithm)
19:41:28 <ais523> Vorpal: I know; if I repeat a line unexpectedly, it's almost always due to a typo
19:41:33 <ais523> my IRC client makes that typo rather easy
19:41:42 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway. Depends on illumination model I would guess.
19:41:47 <elliott> "APNG hides the subsequent frames in PNG ancillary chunks in such a way that APNG-unaware applications would ignore them, but there are otherwise no changes to the format to allow software to distinguish between animated and non-animated images."
19:42:11 <elliott> "Mozilla Firefox added support for APNG in version 3 trunk builds on March 23, 2007.[5] However, because libpng is the PNG Group's reference implementation of the official specification, APNG support can never be supported in the main libpng distribution so long as it remains unratified by the Group. Consequently, Iceweasel 3 does not support APNG.[6]"
19:42:23 <Vorpal> ais523, with raytraceing, moving anything could change how light reflects and that could give effects way later in the path of the photon
19:42:34 <elliott> Iceweasel vs GNU IceCat: discuss
19:42:36 <pikhq> elliott: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:2d41d737527e809d7511d0643b49bdfae5e6ad8e YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO.
19:42:47 <Vorpal> ais523, effects of a local change _could_ be global
19:42:49 <ais523> Vorpal: indeed; but full raytracing is rarely actually used
19:43:03 <ais523> and even then, you can cache parts of the calculation that aren't illumination
19:43:04 <elliott> pikhq: OH MY GOD WHY WOULD YOU LINK ME TO AN IMAGE OF A BEAR KICKING A CAT AND A PUPPY
19:43:19 <Vorpal> ais523, go to the examples on povray's website ;P
19:43:19 <ais523> elliott: I actually prefer the name Iceweasel
19:43:20 <pikhq> elliott: It's about 21 gigs of PNGs. :)
19:43:27 <ais523> Vorpal: I know it's been done
19:43:27 <elliott> ais523: ditto, it's also less GNU, which helps
19:43:34 <Vorpal> ais523, and the results are often awesome
19:43:40 <ais523> that doesn't make it actually often used, though
19:43:49 <ais523> it's just too CPU-intensive with modern technology
19:43:57 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, even with more everyday-raytracing, you could get global effects from local changes
19:44:02 <Vorpal> just somewhat less risk
19:44:05 <elliott> "GNU IceCat is available as a free download for the IA-32 and PowerPC architectures. Both binaries and source are available, though the current build is available only for GNU/Linux."
19:44:25 <pikhq> elliott: From xiph.org's test media. :)
19:44:34 <elliott> pikhq: can't get any peers. sorry
19:44:43 <Vorpal> ais523, radiosity, not sure how global that is
19:45:10 <ais523> Vorpal: you are missing my point
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19:45:28 <ais523> even if, say, illlumination can't be cached, things like shaders often could be
19:45:44 <elliott> "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." --Friedrich Nietzsche
19:45:50 <pikhq> Oh, wow. *Raw* 480p of Elephant's Dream is just 7.5GB.
19:45:55 <pikhq> That's *without any compression at all*.
19:46:08 <ais523> elliott: please tell me that's a genuine quote
19:46:20 <ais523> somehow, it looks like one of those "nonsense attributed to a famous person to make it amusing" quotes
19:46:27 <elliott> ais523: it is if you wrap it in another layer of quotes and append "--Matt Groening" to the end
19:47:10 <elliott> ais523: Debian so need to put that in the about box
19:47:16 <elliott> or about:mozilla, if it still exists and shows the silly fake Bible thing
19:47:24 <elliott> (i bet mozilla.org removed that because of OFFENCE)
19:47:26 <Vorpal> ais523, isn't shaders mostly used for rendering on GPUs? Which means it wouldn't be pre-rendered anyway
19:47:53 <Vorpal> I may be completely wrong
19:48:18 <ais523> Vorpal: shaders are used for everything
19:48:50 <ais523> put it this way: out of the things usually used in a graphics pipeline, shaders are the TC bit
19:49:12 <elliott> pikhq: There are no good panel applications for X11. Please rectify this.
19:49:36 <Vorpal> ais523, the wp article on shaders is bad. It doesn't seem to mention it in the context of rendering for movies and such at all. Just for the GPU context.
19:49:56 <ais523> Vorpal: well, a shader is basically a bit of code that runs on the GPU
19:50:04 <ais523> modifying either vertices or pixels in arbitrary ways
19:50:23 <ais523> you'd do much the same thing for, say, smoke effects in a 3D movie
19:50:29 <Vorpal> ais523, so they are not used when you render something in blender or povray?
19:50:56 <ais523> it almost certainly depends on what you're rendering
19:51:11 <ais523> povray probably doesn't use them because it's insane; I expect blender would, though
19:51:38 <elliott> One reason why lwm is excellent: Its original developer is "elliotth".
19:51:52 <elliott> That "elliotth" happens to maintain an editor which is inspired by Plan 9's acme.
19:51:59 <elliott> Clone, right? SORRY NO HE USES JAVA.
19:52:09 <Vorpal> ais523, traditionally "offline" rendering software did not use the GPU at all
19:52:27 <elliott> The h actually stands for hughes, regrettably. But whatever.
19:52:43 <Vorpal> ais523, it just goes about raytracing on the CPU, until it is done
19:53:10 <ais523> but GPUs are faster for that sort of calculation
19:54:31 <Vorpal> ais523, well yes, it would use it as GP-GPU though, you don't want opengl/directx rendering look to it. You want something that looks way more realistic
19:56:32 <Vorpal> elliott, would work yes
19:56:46 <ais523> adanaxis uses shaders in order to get 4D rendering
19:56:55 <ais523> presumably, it has a 4D->3D projection shader as a vertex shader
19:57:23 <ais523> and then lets the graphics lib handle 3D->2D
19:57:24 <elliott> i think adanaxis would break my brain
19:57:35 <ais523> it's not that bad, really
19:57:35 <Vorpal> ais523, also blender for offline rendering still worked on sucky GPUs last I checked
19:57:43 <elliott> ais523: i am really terrible at envisioning higher dimensions
19:57:50 <elliott> was so bad it wasn't even funny
19:57:53 <Vorpal> ais523, such as old on-board intel in laptop
19:57:58 <elliott> ais523: how does it represent 4d?
19:58:04 <Vorpal> old enough to probably not have very advanced shaders
19:58:07 <ais523> elliott: strangely, with adanaxis I can't visualise where everything is, but I can visualise how I need to move to get there
19:58:26 <Vorpal> ais523, was it free or? I don't remember
19:58:33 <ais523> and via color, and with coordinates of everything relative to your current heading marked on it
19:58:34 <elliott> Vorpal: gpl with some commercial data available, it seems
19:58:36 <elliott> "But other objects are rendered, very roughly, as projections of 4D objects on the 2D screen.[6] In the game manual, the author says he didn’t yet figure out how to implement real 4D and 4D explosions without making the game require a thousand times more processing power.[1]"
19:58:37 <pikhq> *Finally* figured out how I'm going to do this. pullup followed by the yadif deinterlacer.
19:58:43 <elliott> "The game is distributed under the Mushware Software License version 1.4, which refers to the GNU GPL v2, the public domain, proprietary and a number of other licenses."
19:58:53 <ais523> Vorpal: there's a GPL version, which is the main version minus all the proprietary stuff
19:59:00 <ais523> it's the version I use, but it's only available for Linux
19:59:14 <Vorpal> ais523, well, I'm going to use linux definitely
19:59:30 <Vorpal> ais523, I can't find the source download
19:59:40 <ais523> Vorpal: what distro are you on?
19:59:47 <Sgeo> What's this about 4D?
19:59:48 <Vorpal> ais523, arch linux, 64-bit
19:59:52 <pikhq> It's imperfect, but best I can do.
19:59:57 <Vorpal> ais523, they only have .deb and .rpm
19:59:57 <ais523> it's in the repos on Ubuntu (and presumably Debian)
20:00:09 <Vorpal> ais523, and I definitely don't want to play this on on-board intel graphics :P
20:00:11 <ais523> Vorpal: is there a source .deb?
20:00:17 <elliott> i'm sure it'll work with intel
20:00:19 <ais523> also, onboard Intel graphics is what I use to play it
20:00:28 <ais523> I get intel graphics deliberately, because they work well with Linux
20:00:32 <Vorpal> elliott, probably but smaller screen and such
20:00:47 <elliott> Vorpal: well, i have the same system as him except with 1366x768
20:00:53 <ais523> Vorpal: the game isn't massively intensive
20:01:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt I could get 4xAA with it. I can with my desktop though
20:01:03 <ais523> elliott: "except"? mine is also 1366x768, IIRC
20:01:13 <elliott> Vorpal: is your enjoyment of a game directly enhanced by that extra AA?
20:01:19 <elliott> ais523: i thought you had the 11 inch version
20:01:32 <elliott> ais523: damn you and your higher ppi!
20:01:34 <ais523> the pixels are smaller, I think
20:01:37 <ais523> elliott: and take that back?
20:01:40 <elliott> ais523: no, just closer together
20:01:44 <elliott> ais523: bah, fine, i take it back
20:01:49 -!- yiyus_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:01:55 <elliott> i only wish you to be tortured for a billion years because of ppi, not eternity
20:02:13 <elliott> ais523: i can understand how "damn you" is insulting if you're religious and believe in hell
20:02:25 <Vorpal> wait, there is one saying "control demo 0.0.1, source files" and one saying "rendering demo 0.0.1, source files"
20:02:25 <elliott> but how can me saying it be offensive, as i absolutely do not believe that any such thing will or should happen?
20:02:45 <Vorpal> "If you'd like to build from source, GPL releases will be along towards the end of July 2007. These will contain source code but not the commercially-sourced graphics and audio (because of the distribution terms of that content). "
20:02:50 <Vorpal> seems like that didn't happen
20:02:54 <ais523> elliott: well, insults can be offensive even if you don't need them
20:03:03 <ais523> Vorpal: I have that versoin /installed/
20:03:08 <elliott> so of course source is available
20:03:09 <Vorpal> ais523, the source one?
20:03:29 <Vorpal> elliott, look at, http://www.mushware.com/portal.php?page=10 notice it says 1.1.4 and such?
20:03:44 <Vorpal> elliott, then look at the version numbers on http://www.mushware.com/dload.php?action=category&cat_id=7&sid=b132c2cf9fa05a3a16320b70609bc36e
20:03:52 <elliott> Vorpal: look harder. debian would never package non-free software.
20:04:33 * coppro plots out course plans for the coming years
20:04:35 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I guess I could download the source from debian.
20:04:37 <elliott> Vorpal: failing that, get the source from debian.
20:04:45 <Vorpal> elliott, hah, 2 seconds before you ;)
20:04:50 <ais523> elliott: I just did that, uploading to filebin.ca now
20:04:58 <ais523> so three people have the same idea
20:05:13 <elliott> ais523: err, why upload it?
20:05:18 <elliott> it's available from 438593745934578934578934598345 mirrors already
20:05:33 <ais523> presumably it'll be in a package
20:05:41 <ais523> I extracted the orig.tar.gz from the .deb, and am uploading that
20:05:45 <elliott> "[adanaxisgpl_1.2.5.dfsg.1.orig.tar.gz]"
20:05:49 <elliott> see packages.debian.org/stable/adanaxisgpl
20:06:07 <ais523> the dfsg in the version number is pretty interesting
20:06:15 <ais523> presumably, Debian had to modify it to make it open source
20:06:18 -!- quintopia has left (?).
20:06:58 -!- catseye has joined.
20:06:58 <elliott> "The documentation for this package is supplied in a PDF file named
20:06:59 <elliott> data-adanaxis/About_Adanaxis_GPL.pdf"
20:07:02 <ais523> aha, reading the copyright you know what happened?
20:07:17 <ais523> let's see... an empty directory isn't preserved in .zip files
20:07:37 <ais523> so in order to make sure the distro unpacked properly, the Adanaxis added an empty file to it, as normal
20:07:47 <ais523> anyway, they somehow managed to specify that the empty file in question wasn't GPL
20:08:35 <ais523> I think, it's quite hard to follow what happened
20:09:08 <elliott> ais523: with another empty file?
20:09:13 <catseye> Gregor: while your Persistent Pessimism Principle serves well, in this case it did not hold, as it was overridden by Laziness ("what is the least we must do to reinstall Windows on this laptop" resolved to "only touch the Windows partition")
20:09:24 <ais523> elliott: with a comment saying /* this is GPL */ or something along those lines, I think
20:09:47 <ais523> I may have misinterpreted this
20:09:52 <ais523> but I hope I haven't, as it's hilarious
20:10:18 <ais523> what happened was that the source was split into GPL/PD/proprietary
20:10:30 <ais523> with filename conditions to tell which was which
20:10:49 <ais523> and after removing the proprietary stuff, they had to add a stub to get it to compile
20:10:57 <ais523> with the same filename as what was there
20:11:39 <ais523> and so there's a big exception saying that despite the license, the file in question is actually GPL
20:12:50 <ais523> despite being, basically, an empty file
20:13:14 <Vorpal> debian/rules sets that
20:13:28 <ais523> C-INTERCAL uses "-Wl,-z,muldefs"
20:13:34 <ais523> in order to delete redundant copies of main()
20:13:39 <Vorpal> Disallows undefined symbols in object files. Undefined symbols in shared libraries are still allowed.
20:13:59 <Vorpal> ais523, hope it deletes the right one then
20:14:06 <ais523> Vorpal: they're all identical anyway...
20:14:48 <catseye> that's very computery of it
20:15:08 <Vorpal> ais523, which one is the first one?
20:15:12 <ais523> normally it errors out, but when you specifically tell it not to, it has to do something else
20:15:24 <ais523> Vorpal: first on the command line, first in the archive as a tiebreak, I imagine
20:15:30 <Vorpal> ais523, why did someone decide to add an option to not error out on that
20:15:46 <ais523> (proof that it's useful: I used it)
20:16:02 <Vorpal> ais523, uh, c-intercal is not very normal so...
20:16:10 <ais523> Vorpal: that doesn't mean it isn't useful, though!
20:16:18 <ais523> "isn't normally used" != "not useful"
20:16:21 <Vorpal> I mean, the normal case would be handled by the compiler marking it as common or such
20:16:34 <Vorpal> not for functions though
20:17:17 <elliott> ais523: does that mean you can put definitions in header files?
20:17:39 <ais523> elliott: I suppose so, although it would screw with whole-program optimization
20:17:55 <ais523> and seems rather like a bad idea
20:18:11 <ais523> you could even put int x = 5; in a different header file
20:18:42 <Vorpal> configure: Verdict was:
20:18:42 <Vorpal> configure: CPPFLAGS= -I/usr/include/SDL -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -I${srcdir} -I${srcdir}/API -DNDEBUG -I${srcdir}/Platform/X11
20:19:01 <Vorpal> oh and it also lists LDFLAGS and LIBS there
20:19:32 <catseye> THAT FOX HAS NO TAIL AND IT IS HUGGING THAT PLANET
20:19:58 <elliott> catseye: You mean the... Firefox logo?
20:20:11 <elliott> Its body is sort of a tail.
20:20:15 <elliott> It doesn't make much anatomical sense.
20:20:36 <Vorpal> catseye, why now. I mean, it been around for a numbers of years...
20:20:37 <Sgeo> Shower in 10min :D:D:D<3
20:21:03 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know the perfect solution to the various framerates out there? High-quality CRT HDTV that handles them all. DONE.
20:21:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, err... why :D:D:D
20:21:16 <ais523> elliott: I remember a discussion I saw online about how to replace people's browsers with Firefox without them noticing
20:21:33 <Vorpal> I'm sure we all love to maintain hygiene, but.... wtf :P
20:21:34 <ais523> someone said that they left both an IE and a Firefox icon on the desktop, /both/ opening Firefox
20:21:35 <catseye> Anyway, good to know that is a logo and not a psychotic delusion on my part.
20:21:37 <ais523> that seems a bit overkill
20:21:38 <Sgeo> Vorpal, it marks me taking daily showers again
20:21:57 <Vorpal> err yes and? That is quite common
20:22:29 <elliott> "It is Fedora's policy to close all
20:22:30 <elliott> bug reports from releases that are no longer maintained."
20:22:49 <Sgeo> As opposed to weekly showers
20:22:56 <Sgeo> And as opposed to having to go elsewhere
20:22:58 <catseye> stupid unmaintained bug reports
20:23:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess they think "well, people will mark them as affecting other releases as well, or reopen them in worst case"
20:23:28 <elliott> Vorpal: it's still stupid :p
20:23:38 <elliott> relevant: http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
20:23:47 <Vorpal> elliott, well, what are they going to do? Delete them? leave them open forever?
20:23:55 <elliott> Vorpal: leave them open until they're fixed
20:23:58 <Vorpal> elliott, after all, if they don't affect the next release, the thing is fixed
20:24:03 <Vorpal> from their point of view
20:24:03 <elliott> then it should be marked as fixed
20:24:07 <elliott> because it was fixed and marked in the bug tracker
20:24:10 <elliott> not because "oh, i hope it just went away"
20:24:14 <Vorpal> elliott, the real issue is that they are not doing rolling release
20:24:21 <Vorpal> elliott, with rolling release it would be no issue
20:24:31 <elliott> Vorpal: you can't rolling-release Gnome...
20:24:35 <elliott> (it was Fedora, but still)
20:24:44 <Gregor> Close them automatically after N time.
20:24:46 <Gregor> That's what Mozilla does.
20:24:51 <Vorpal> elliott, .... I meant for distro
20:24:56 <Vorpal> please read what I said
20:25:07 <elliott> i was saying that it only applies in one very specific case
20:25:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I never claimed it would be relevant for a non-distro
20:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, though I know of rolling release non-distros
20:25:44 <Vorpal> elliott, mrd6 seems to be that way for example
20:25:55 <elliott> rolling release software is generally an excuse not to bother to mark certain commits as stable :)
20:26:04 <elliott> "Trunk? Sure, it'll probably work!"
20:26:12 <elliott> "Please let it work. Please let it work. Please let it work."
20:26:25 <catseye> It works for everything *I* care about.
20:26:25 <elliott> "Well, you DID use the development tree release!"
20:26:34 <elliott> "What can you expect from a git repository?! Silly boy."
20:26:57 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, bogons does multicast :D
20:26:58 <catseye> (Hey why wouldn't it / of course it doesn't) work
20:27:24 <elliott> Vorpal: i... don't know what that is :<
20:27:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well, if it isn't hooked up to m6bone it isn't very useful as the situation currently stands. Google it.
20:28:06 <Vorpal> elliott, wp has a useful article on it
20:28:07 <elliott> where's the list of nodes?
20:28:23 <elliott> Vorpal: wikipedia has no "m6bone" article
20:28:47 <catseye> i assume it's like the MBONE for IPv6 or something
20:29:07 <elliott> A November 1994 Rolling Stones concert at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas with 50,000 fans was the "first major cyberspace multicast concert." Mick Jagger opened the concert by saying, "I wanna say a special welcome to everyone that's, uh, climbed into the Internet tonight and, uh, has got into the M-bone. And I hope it doesn't all collapse."
20:29:15 <elliott> ^ I APPROVE OF THIS SO HARD
20:29:25 <Vorpal> catseye, indeed. And unlike mbone it is still active, though currently the activity is shrinking
20:29:35 <elliott> Vorpal: link me to the WP article
20:30:00 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:30:01 <Vorpal> elliott, well maybe it was mentioned in some other article there
20:30:09 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, is there a list of who's connected to ti?
20:30:31 <elliott> bah, the top two services I can get from bogons:
20:30:39 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure. sixxs has a list of POPs and lists which ones are connected
20:30:43 <elliott> 8 Mb/s download, 448 Kb/s upload, £60 setup, £35/mo
20:30:49 <elliott> 8 Mb/s download, 832 Kb/s upload, £60 setup, £45/mo
20:30:56 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is not directly connected there
20:31:07 <Vorpal> it does limited multicast though
20:31:16 <catseye> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6bone
20:31:32 <elliott> Vorpal: i can either get shitty, fast, reasonably-priced broadband or excellent, sort-of-midway-fast, expensive as hell broadband!
20:31:36 <Vorpal> elliott, the latter matches my speed pretty well. The price is about twice of mine
20:31:37 <elliott> YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY
20:31:47 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah but bogons are like
20:31:59 <elliott> probably more business customers
20:32:14 <elliott> Vorpal: one of the... two staff members is the one who originally registered bbc.co.uk :)
20:33:10 <elliott> Vorpal: ok so where's the list of connected people >_>
20:33:19 <Vorpal> elliott, it wasn't creating by the academics thinking "oh dear, we seem to have more commercial customers than universities hooked up now, maybe we should split that off or something"
20:33:26 <Vorpal> which was how the ISP I use came to be
20:33:32 <Vorpal> back in 1992 or 1993 iirc
20:33:43 <Vorpal> elliott, m6bone != 6bone
20:33:45 <elliott> When it became obvious that the availability of IPv6 top level production prefixes was assured, and that commercial and private IPv6 networks were being operated outside the 6bone using these prefixes, a plan was developed to phase out the 6bone (see RFC 3701).
20:33:46 <elliott> The phaseout plan called for a halt to new 6bone prefix allocations on 1 January 2004 and the complete cessation of 6bone operation and routing over the 6bone testing prefixes on 6 June 2006. Addresses within the 6bone testing prefix have now reverted to the IANA, and should no longer be used.
20:33:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:33:54 <elliott> and i trust catseye with my HEART
20:34:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well. They are different
20:34:01 <catseye> there doesn't seem to BE an "m6bone"
20:34:10 <elliott> Vorpal: so *give me the list of things on m6bone*!
20:34:15 <Vorpal> http://www.m6bone.net/
20:34:17 <elliott> catseye: http://www.m6bone.net/
20:34:19 <elliott> catseye: most useless site ever
20:34:33 <Vorpal> elliott, googling m6bone: "About 203,000 results (0.07 seconds) "
20:34:48 <elliott> i can't find a fucking list of ISPs that are fucking conn fucking ected!
20:34:51 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.sixxs.net/faq/connectivity/?faq=multicast
20:35:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well I don't know of such a list eithyer
20:35:10 <elliott> Vorpal: ...then how the hell am i meant to know?
20:35:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I asked because I presumed they would list it
20:35:44 <elliott> "Optional included extras: [...] Multicast and/or IPv6 routing over ADSL"
20:36:08 <Vorpal> adanaxis takes forever to compile btw
20:36:12 <elliott> "Optional routed IP (/29 or /30 from us)" only £2/month, awesome
20:36:13 <Vorpal> oh, says g++ in the output
20:36:18 <oerjan> <elliott> can a program that outputs (a program that outputs X) be smaller than the smallest program that outputs X?
20:36:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, sounds like compression
20:36:47 <elliott> oerjan: i realise that if you have eval
20:36:48 <Sgeo> Oh wow didn't notice the time
20:36:51 <Sgeo> Shower time :D
20:36:59 <elliott> eval(that program) could be shorter than the others
20:37:01 <elliott> but assume you don't have eval
20:37:05 <oerjan> i don't know but it reminds me and may be related to a result that there are theorems P such that provable(P) has a much shorter proof than P
20:37:07 <elliott> also assume that the language doesn't cheat
20:37:16 <elliott> where F outputs "QQQQQQQQQ"
20:37:57 <Vorpal> elliott, would it be correct to state that if (size of xz + size output of "xz -9 -e otherprogram") < size of otherprogram
20:38:01 <oerjan> also even if you don't have eval you should be able to implement it with little overhead
20:38:03 <Vorpal> then your condition is true?
20:38:25 <elliott> Vorpal: let's consider xz and xz^-1 as two functions instead
20:38:42 <elliott> and Q == the implementation of xz and xz^-1
20:38:48 <Vorpal> elliott, if you are picky add a shell script wrapper that includes an embedded xz binary and the compressed data
20:39:07 <elliott> so you're saying basically that
20:39:12 <elliott> |Q| + |xz(P_0)| + C <= P_1
20:39:19 <elliott> where C is the constant overhead of actually calling xz^-1 on it
20:39:34 <Vorpal> a few bytes rather, but yeah
20:39:34 <elliott> |Q| + |xz(P_0)| + C <= P_0
20:39:39 <elliott> |Q| + |xz(P_0)| + C <= |P_0|
20:39:41 <elliott> then yes, that would meet the condition
20:40:02 <Vorpal> elliott, for a sufficiently large P_0 it should be true
20:40:10 <elliott> P_0 has to be the smallest possible program that outputs whatever it does
20:40:24 <elliott> Vorpal: you're talking about an output of many, many random bits
20:40:24 <Vorpal> elliott, err, well, then that is trickier
20:40:26 <elliott> and guess what xz can't compress?
20:40:45 <elliott> (P_0 has to be basically an output statement for its output to be random like that)
20:40:47 <Vorpal> elliott, random, hm. is pseudorandom okay?
20:40:54 <elliott> Vorpal: not for kolgomorov complexity
20:40:54 <Vorpal> wait, wouldn't help much
20:41:04 <elliott> i'm deferring to oerjan who can explain things much less confuzzledly than me :D
20:41:24 <Vorpal> elliott, hm.... define "smallest possible program"
20:41:34 <elliott> Vorpal: um, do you know what kolgomorov complexity is?
20:41:49 <elliott> smallest program that outputs X is the program P such that |P| <= |Q| for all Q that output X
20:41:58 <elliott> where K is kolgomorov complexity
20:42:14 <elliott> completely random data can't be generated algorithmically, so basically we have a print statement followed by all the data
20:42:24 <elliott> so K(X) = |X| + C if X is truly random
20:42:27 <elliott> C just being the "print" overhead
20:42:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it could be smaller on a different system.
20:42:50 <elliott> you are *such* a fucking software engineer
20:43:08 -!- wareya has joined.
20:43:11 <elliott> lambda calculus represented as binary doesn't change :p
20:43:35 <oerjan> Vorpal: any particular string can be compressed smaller on a particular system, but _most_ strings cannot be compressed (in the kolmogorov or most other senses)
20:43:58 <elliott> kolgomorov complexity is really deep and beautiful imo
20:44:10 <elliott> it's like half of information theory right there :P
20:44:25 <oerjan> also for two different TC systems there's always a bound to how different their kolmogorov complexities can be - just simulate each in the other
20:44:27 * pikhq has redone his x264 encoding options
20:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway what about this: We have a architecture where the minimal way to output "foo" is 14 instructions long. There is another, single, instruction however, which outputs this sequence of 14 instruction
20:44:39 <pikhq> -x264encopts preset=slow
20:44:41 <elliott> Vorpal: i already said HQ9+F is not allowed
20:44:45 <elliott> where F outputs a bunch of Qs
20:44:52 <elliott> Vorpal: we can think of different systems
20:44:56 <elliott> but i mean something like the lambda calculus
20:45:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it could have lots and lots of more instructions apart of those.
20:45:06 <pikhq> Thank you, x264, for adding presets since I last did the configuration for all that.
20:45:11 <elliott> devising a system which allows this can be interesting, but only if it emerges from the definition
20:45:24 <elliott> and really i'm asking about things like the binary lambda calculus / ski / turing machine / etc.
20:45:34 <Vorpal> elliott, so what you are asking is really "are there any existing languages that allow this"?
20:45:52 <elliott> i'm asking an open-ended question to explore in interesting ways.
20:45:58 <elliott> if this concept is foreign to you i apologise.
20:46:18 <oerjan> a more interesting question could be if _all_ TC languages allow this
20:46:35 <elliott> oerjan: so, your intuition is that K(P) < K(X) where P outputs X probably exists in lambda calculus or whatever?
20:46:41 <elliott> but it might be, I suppose
20:46:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it isn't very well defined though, and I'm coming up with solutions based on what I know about the question, and you keep adding restrictions (that I didn't see mentioned above)
20:46:55 <elliott> although it feels like getting that result would be so dangerously close to K(X) < K(X) :)
20:47:06 <Vorpal> elliott, if you think I'm going to go back and log read the original convo you are wrong
20:47:09 -!- yiyus_ has joined.
20:47:11 <elliott> oerjan: add one new element to the language, just eval
20:47:18 <Vorpal> it seems to have been ages ago
20:47:26 <elliott> oerjan: then, if the program that outputs P is more than one instruction shorter th--
20:47:30 <elliott> that just changes it for that language
20:47:48 <oerjan> well my intuition is that if there is some generic construction in some TC language with arbitrarily large difference in the sizes, then it can probably be converted to any other TC system
20:47:48 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm not adding restrictions, i'm rejecting your uninteresting answers
20:47:55 <Vorpal> elliott, huh, adanaxis uses *.tiff in the data files it installs
20:48:05 <elliott> oerjan: well i'm finding it hard to think of e.g. a python example, as a practical matter
20:48:12 <elliott> oerjan: but then, you can't really measure python in bytes
20:48:15 <Vorpal> elliott, define "interesting"
20:48:23 <elliott> Vorpal: everything that is not you.
20:48:26 <catseye> i think it's similar to compressing a compressed file.
20:48:34 <Vorpal> elliott, so anything I say you will just reject?
20:48:40 <elliott> catseye: you don't have to output the smallest program to output X
20:48:44 <elliott> you just have to output any old program to output X
20:48:53 <elliott> as long as the program that outputs that any old program is shorter than the *shortest* program that outputs X
20:49:00 <oerjan> elliott: or wait, the fact that you can embed an interpreter for the language itself probably means you _cannot_ have arbitrarily large size difference
20:49:03 <elliott> K(P) < K(X) where P outputs X
20:49:12 <elliott> but the program that provides the length for K(X) does not need to be P
20:49:17 <elliott> it can be a vastly-shorter-than-P Q
20:49:30 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe if you start being interesting like catseye and oerjan and not proposing HQ9+F i will listen
20:49:47 <elliott> oerjan: establishing upper bounds sounds fun (although very difficult)
20:50:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought the question was "is this possible". And it seems like a valid way to note "yes possible, but perhaps not usefully so"
20:50:18 <elliott> oerjan: of course, if you have an eval instruction, then however much overhead just evalling is, is an upper bound
20:50:34 <elliott> Vorpal: it's very obviously possible...
20:51:00 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, consider a language that, when a program results in a string that's a valid program, evals it, and repeats until it's an invalid program
20:51:09 <elliott> oerjan: we can't do this in that language, since the program it outputs would eval itself, etc.
20:51:19 <elliott> oerjan: i guess we could encode it actually
20:51:23 <ais523> elliott: that's an ingenious way to make a quineless language
20:51:31 <ais523> although ofc it isn't then capable of arbitrary output
20:51:46 <elliott> oerjan: but otoh, i very much doubt that ANY program outputting a goedel-or-similar-encoded program can be shorter than the *shortest program* program outputting the same thing in the native format
20:52:11 <elliott> oerjan: so i *think* those languages might be counterexamples
20:52:28 <elliott> oerjan: *every* x in K(x) would have to be something-encoded in this language
20:52:39 <elliott> since otherwise K would be ... partial, and that makes no sense at all
20:52:44 <elliott> oerjan: so no, disregard that, not a counterexample
20:52:52 <oerjan> <elliott> Vorpal: maybe if you start being interesting like catseye and oerjan and not proposing HQ9+F i will listen <-- hey _I_ added X to it, not that different :D
20:53:07 -!- wareya_ has joined.
20:53:12 <elliott> oerjan: well that was in your regrettably-misspent youth.
20:53:36 <Vorpal> fuck, adanaxis, it refuses windowed mode and also refuses native resolution
20:53:42 <Vorpal> ais523, any idea how to fix that?
20:53:50 <ais523> Vorpal: it does the same to me, I just play in 1024x768
20:53:51 <Vorpal> can it be made to do windowed mode in some hidden way
20:53:53 <ais523> the screen can manage it
20:54:02 <Vorpal> ais523, I have 1680x1050
20:54:09 <elliott> it's a separate resolution
20:54:12 <Sgeo> That was unpleasant
20:54:12 <catseye> my guess is, if there is a shorter "generator generator" than a generator, it's only shorter by a "+ C" if you know what I mean
20:54:14 <elliott> for all windowed resolutions
20:54:17 <Sgeo> The water failed to stay hot
20:54:26 <elliott> catseye: but that's the thing
20:54:39 <elliott> catseye: we could have a 3-byte program that outputs "print X; print X; print X" a billion times
20:54:44 <elliott> catseye: and a 4-byte program that outputs X a billion times
20:54:51 <elliott> the 3-byte program doesn't output the 4-byte program
20:54:51 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:54:52 <Vorpal> elliott, 800x600 windowed? yeargh that is small
20:54:54 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:54:56 <elliott> but it outputs a program that *outputs the same thing*
20:55:06 <catseye> elliott: i understand that.
20:55:27 <elliott> catseye: it seems like the kind of thing that you can prove and then when you try and derive an example it turns out to be five gigabytes big :)
20:55:36 <Vorpal> elliott, it doesn't go above the tiny 800x600 for windowed mode!
20:55:40 <oerjan> catseye: yes, as i said the difference cannot be more than the length of wrapping the generator in a self-interpreter implementation
20:55:41 <Sgeo> When was the last time I disagreed with elliott about something?
20:55:46 <elliott> i think that this would only occur at quite long bit lengths. but then the generator-generator would have to be bigger...
20:55:58 <elliott> Sgeo: are you doing so now?
20:56:02 <Vorpal> elliott, hm is there any tutorial?
20:56:07 <Sgeo> I don't even know the topi
20:56:10 <elliott> Vorpal: for kolgomorov complexity?
20:56:18 <catseye> oerjan: right, i basically came to that conclusion too... you can write any program of any length you want onto your tape then interpret that.
20:56:29 <elliott> Sgeo: K(x) = length of shortest program that outputs x, "kolgomorov complexity"
20:56:38 <elliott> Sgeo: in some fixed language L
20:57:18 <Sgeo> I thought the maximal complexity is when x is random
20:57:26 <elliott> oerjan: this is terribly interesting.
20:57:34 <elliott> K(x) = |x| + C when x is random
20:57:41 <elliott> the C is the length of "print this string"
20:57:55 <elliott> that's for almost all random strings
20:58:03 <elliott> of course your language could cheat or whatever for a few of them
20:58:08 -!- wareya has joined.
20:58:09 <elliott> almost all strings are incompressible
20:58:15 <elliott> is it just me or is debian.org down?
20:58:35 <Gregor> elliott: It's not down.
20:58:49 <elliott> Oops! Google Chrome could not find www.debian.org
20:58:49 <elliott> Try reloading: www. debian. org
20:58:52 <catseye> elliott, oerjan : in a sense, "print" is just the simplest interpreter there is :)
20:59:08 <elliott> catseye: interpreter for the cat language
20:59:12 <zzo38> What is quantum disco?
20:59:21 <elliott> K(x) = |x| for all x in the cat language!
20:59:33 <elliott> and every program is a quine!
21:00:22 <Sgeo> What does it mean for an output to be negative?
21:00:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum%27s_speedup_theorem seems analogous
21:00:31 <elliott> Sgeo: |x| = cardinality/length of x
21:00:36 <Vorpal> ais523, wait, adanaxis only has x,y,z for aiming? That is just 3D, not 4D?
21:00:47 <elliott> or, well, it can be anything abstract really but
21:00:51 <elliott> a string is the concrete one to go for
21:00:54 <Sgeo> Oh, right, K(x) is a number
21:00:56 <ais523> Vorpal: they're directoin angles
21:00:56 <oerjan> zzo38: never heard of it
21:00:58 * Sgeo facepalms self
21:00:59 <elliott> Vorpal: right click mouse button and move left/right
21:01:09 <elliott> Sgeo: a natural number, to be precise
21:01:09 <Vorpal> ais523, how do you move yourself though?
21:01:11 <ais523> if you're aiming at something in 2D, you only need one angle to describe the direction
21:01:18 <ais523> Vorpal: w and s go forwards and backwards
21:01:21 <Sgeo> Does 0 count as natural?
21:01:29 <catseye> ... i had not considered facepalming someone *else* before now.
21:01:40 <catseye> sounds like some kind of monk martial arts move
21:01:42 * elliott puts his palm on catseye's face
21:01:47 <olsner> Sgeo: facepalm implies self, I think
21:01:48 <Vorpal> ais523, no thrust in other axises?
21:01:49 <ais523> a and d strafe horizontally; q and e can be used for the rotations that you can't easily do with the mouse
21:01:58 <elliott> catseye: surprise, we're now in a civil union according to the laws of all civilised countries!
21:02:03 <ais523> the thrust is always /forwards/, except with a and d
21:02:06 <elliott> CIVIL UNIONS: DESTROYING MARRIAGE?
21:02:08 <Vorpal> ais523, in which dimensions do q and e move
21:02:37 <Sgeo> I was facepalming *about* myself, as opposed to at someone else's stupidity
21:02:39 <ais523> to move in a particular direction, use the mouse to face in that direction (moving it for two direction axes, right-drag for third), then press w
21:02:45 <Vorpal> ais523, what about strafing vertically or <whatever you call the extra dimension>?
21:02:47 <elliott> http://www.demolinux.org/en/ecrans/version-debian-gnome.jpg
21:02:52 <ais523> and q and e rotate the current fourth dimension onto the forwards direction, IIRC
21:03:02 <ais523> hmm, no, not that, that's what rightdrag does
21:03:09 <ais523> Vorpal: rotate, then strafe
21:03:27 <ais523> (btw, the usual fourth dimension terminology is ana/kata for the extra dimension)
21:03:54 <elliott> Gregor: Have you ever used DEBIAN STABLE as your main desktop OS?
21:04:02 <elliott> Gregor: Being a Debian zealot surely you have.
21:04:06 <zzo38> ana/kata? I have heard of it before..... OK, I suppose we can use that, then.
21:04:07 <Vorpal> ais523, why those words, I thought kata was related to material arts?
21:04:11 <Gregor> Debian Stable == Debian Obsolete
21:04:17 <Gregor> I've used stable for servers.
21:04:21 <elliott> Gregor: But I thought Debian is RIGHT.
21:04:24 <ais523> Vorpal: they're Greek prefixes, IIRC
21:04:30 <Vorpal> ah, different kata then
21:04:36 <Gregor> elliott: It is, but you don't need that kind of stability for a desktop.
21:04:49 <Gregor> elliott: It's right because it gives you such awesome choices ;)
21:04:54 <elliott> Gregor: But unstable has no obviously-linked installer!
21:04:59 <elliott> Do you support SUBVERTING the design of debian.org?
21:05:04 <ais523> elliott: install stable, upgrade?
21:05:05 <elliott> Saying that its choices are not RIGHT?
21:05:14 <ais523> also, does anyone actually use Debian Testing for anything but testing Debian?
21:05:20 <ais523> it's sort-of like Unstable, except bugs persist longer
21:05:25 <elliott> ais523: every Debian user users testing
21:05:27 <Vorpal> ais523, the "read game info" link from the main menu is weird, it opens the pdf in firefox....
21:05:39 <Vorpal> sh: kfmclient: command not found
21:05:39 <Vorpal> sh: galeon: command not found
21:05:39 <Vorpal> sh: opera: command not found
21:05:39 <Vorpal> sh: mozilla: command not found
21:05:41 <Gregor> ais523: Debian Testing = the actual stable Debian
21:05:41 <elliott> ais523: stable is a dinosaur and sid breaks things
21:05:45 <Vorpal> until it tries firefox
21:05:46 <ais523> hmm, the advice I heard from a Debian user friend of mine was "always use stable or unstable"
21:05:55 <Gregor> ais523: Your Debian user friend is a retard.
21:05:57 <elliott> ais523: bear in mind that most debian users are idiots. >:)
21:06:00 <Vorpal> it tries konqueror, epiphany and netscape as well before firefox
21:06:35 <elliott> Gregor: So is your marriage triangle going to be called Grebian?
21:06:39 <Vorpal> "Weapon upgrades and ammunition are found by collecting the boxes shown below." oh god no. Not one of those games.
21:06:44 <elliott> (THAT JOKE IS INSENSITIVE, IAN AND DEB BROKE UP)
21:06:58 <elliott> (Lesson: Never mention your spouse. EVER)
21:07:02 <Vorpal> I prefer games with a complex planet-based economy for buying upgrades, rather than random boxes in the void
21:07:11 <olsner> they should've hyphenated the name or something to commemorate that
21:07:13 <Sgeo> Vorpal, Worms uses boxes...
21:07:17 <elliott> Sorry it wasn't complex enough for you.
21:07:19 <elliott> Sgeo: Worms isn't set in space.
21:07:43 <Vorpal> how would it change my statement about what I prefer
21:07:56 <elliott> Sgeo: Vorpal: both of you shut up :P
21:08:06 <catseye> welcome to my random-box-based economy
21:08:20 <olsner> or -deb+ian? depending on who left who, and which one of them (if any) sticks to the debian project
21:08:31 <elliott> [[Should I use sid on my server?
21:08:35 <elliott> olsner: deb never had anything to do with debian
21:08:45 <elliott> ian just named his distro debian because he was being a ~lovefag~
21:08:53 <Gregor> And neither of them stuck to the project :P
21:09:00 <elliott> Gregor: ian still uses debian i think
21:09:04 <elliott> and still posts stuff about it on his blog
21:09:20 <elliott> "He wrote the Debian Manifesto in 1993 while a student at Purdue University"
21:09:23 <elliott> So THAT'S why Gregor likes it!
21:09:35 <elliott> [[On joining Sun, he led Project Indiana, which he described as "taking the lesson that Linux has brought to the operating system and providing that for Solaris", making a full OpenSolaris distribution with GNOME and userland tools from GNU plus a network-based package management system.]]
21:09:52 <elliott> olsner: they divorced in 2007
21:09:59 <elliott> probably the same day he joined sun to start working on an opensolaris distro >:)
21:10:07 <elliott> "This time, I'll just call it Ian!"
21:10:16 <elliott> on emerging platforms and the power of aggregation and integration"
21:10:16 <Gregor> elliott: Ian joined sun and went all OpenSolaris-happy. I don't know what happened after he quit when Oracle bought Sun.
21:10:26 <elliott> Gregor: He blogs about emerging platforms and the power of aggregation and integration.
21:10:41 <Sgeo> What's Debra doing?
21:10:58 <catseye> aggregation and integration, together at last
21:11:14 <elliott> catseye: Aggregation + Integration = Aggregration!
21:11:16 <Gregor> catseye: I've been so tired of my unintegrated aggregate too!
21:11:38 <elliott> Integration + Aggregation = Integation!
21:11:44 <elliott> Aggregration and Integation.
21:12:06 <Sgeo> Aggregation - Integration = Diffregation
21:12:59 <elliott> Gregor: Seriously, debian.org HTTP is down.
21:13:20 <elliott> Gregor: lol freeze has been frozen
21:13:39 <Sgeo> I'm fully able to access www.debian.org
21:13:41 <zzo38> elliott: Use FTP then?
21:13:48 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
21:13:49 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit).
21:13:55 <elliott> <poisonbit> elliott, try google translate or any other proxy
21:14:37 <Sgeo> I had thoughts about that when I was a kid. Also about websites over email
21:14:41 <zzo38> elliott: No, I mean download the files you need over FTP, if they have FTP and if HTTP doesn't work.
21:14:43 <Sgeo> And websites in registry
21:14:50 <elliott> I typed http://debian.org/ into Google's Arabic -> English translator.
21:14:56 <elliott> It decided to transliterate it to حطب://إبن.عرج/.
21:15:00 <elliott> Firewood: / / son. Claudication /
21:15:08 <elliott> firewood://son.claudication/
21:17:57 <zzo38> Now you have to use the FIREWOOD protocol if the other protocols do not work
21:18:40 <zzo38> (And if it doesn't exist, you would have to invent that protocol first before it can be used.)
21:18:47 <elliott> zzo38: You have to invent it.
21:18:57 <zzo38> elliott: OK. Maybe I will.
21:19:05 <elliott> I think "son.claudication" should be some sort of representation of a path, where the words are the result of hashing some sort of data.
21:19:19 <elliott> Like, that could mean "org.debian", where debian is some integer allocated to Debian and org is the standard namespace.
21:19:47 <elliott> oerjan: heh, r.e.s. has a lot of messages on [[Talk:Kolgomorov complexity]] on Wikipedia
21:21:54 <Vorpal> ais523, I just realised that with my joystick I have enough analogue axises to make this quite a lot easier
21:22:06 <Vorpal> ais523, I mean, it got like 10 of them
21:22:26 <Vorpal> ais523, sure, some are not very usable for this purpose (think hat switch or such)
21:22:43 <catseye> why, you could fly three planes at once with such a control!
21:22:47 <Vorpal> and if that isn't enough I have 3 more in my rudder pedals
21:22:56 <Vorpal> catseye, or one harrier
21:23:32 <Vorpal> catseye, it is nice being able to control the thrust vectoring easily when you need it to land safely :P
21:24:38 <Vorpal> anyway, you need 4 for a basic plane (pitch, yaw, roll, thrust), so that doesn't give me 3 of then.
21:25:09 <elliott> Vorpal: umea (probably an o on top of one of those letters) -- how crazy/stupid are they?
21:25:18 <elliott> Umeaboy in #debian is being stupid right now, I want to know the commonality of this
21:25:28 <Vorpal> and that assumes a jet engine anyway, on many (but not all) propeller planes you had mixture and feathering controls as well
21:25:54 <Vorpal> elliott, Umeå was the -50°C place I mentioned a few days ago.
21:26:04 <elliott> his brain must have frozen then
21:26:15 <Vorpal> elliott, though, it is quite nice up there in the early summer
21:26:38 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, it is not -50 every year, it is too close to the coast for that.
21:26:58 <Vorpal> so it gets a.... ehrm. "mild" climate. Of course that is in relative terms
21:27:05 <elliott> Vorpal: can you give me the ip of cdimage.debian.org?
21:27:09 <elliott> my dns for debian.org is bust or something
21:27:20 <Vorpal> $ host cdimage.debian.org
21:27:20 <Vorpal> cdimage.debian.org is an alias for ftp.acc.umu.se.
21:27:32 <elliott> Vorpal: hmm. so they should have it in the same place.
21:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, that might be a geodns though
21:27:48 <elliott> Vorpal: i was looking at that mirror anyway
21:27:56 <elliott> just thought that daily builds were only on the main server since i couldn't find it
21:27:59 <Vorpal> elliott, how comes, it can't be local to you
21:28:09 <elliott> Vorpal: in the UK, swedish servers get very good times
21:28:18 <pikhq> 100% CPU usage. HOORAY.
21:28:23 <Vorpal> elliott, huh, better than UK mirrors?
21:28:24 <elliott> Vorpal: probably a combination of not too close to us -- so our paths to them aren't clogged with other people
21:28:32 <elliott> Vorpal: and the fact that you guys have fast interwebs
21:28:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well, you know mirrors.kernel.org can easily max out my connection. They use geodns and they have one in Sweden
21:29:05 <Vorpal> I use that as my arch linux package mirror
21:29:23 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah i use the se.mirrors.kernel.org or whatever as my package mirror on ubuntu
21:29:24 <Vorpal> better than those that are listed as Swedish mirrors in the mirror listing
21:29:39 <elliott> mirrorservice.org in the uk also gets good speeds but the swedish ones are more consistently good
21:30:18 <Vorpal> elliott, hey, don't steal our bw. then we will be just as slow as everyone else. After all, it is only right and proper that a country with a fraction of the population of UK and a larger surface area gets a lot more bw :P
21:30:52 <Vorpal> not sure how the numbers look like when you look at the total bw
21:31:24 <elliott> Vorpal: "how the numbers look" is idiomatic
21:32:10 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds like it should be "what the numbers look like" in English?
21:32:19 <elliott> anyone know google's dns servers? >_>
21:32:24 <elliott> Vorpal: that is also valid
21:33:59 <olsner> hmm, how ... look, what ... look like, same difference in swedish really
21:34:46 <elliott> four eights and two eights two fours
21:35:47 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Connection reset by peer review).
21:35:56 -!- elliott has joined.
21:36:17 <elliott> <Bushmills> Umeaboy, what advantage would as GUI installation have for, say, a server? or a low-resource machine?
21:36:18 <elliott> <Umeaboy> Bushmills: A newly started company that wants to make every computer-installation by themselves their own way.
21:36:23 <elliott> Vorpal: swedish people are retarded.
21:37:15 <olsner> damn, looks like denmark has twice the bandwidth per capita of sweden
21:38:01 <olsner> hmm, these numbers were from 2004
21:38:17 <elliott> DAAAMNN YOUUU DENNMAAAARRRKKK
21:38:27 * elliott installs Debian testing in a VM
21:39:00 <elliott> Vorpal: lol, a guy in #debian already has him on ignore from mandriva channels
21:39:05 <elliott> (he said he uses mandriva too)
21:39:16 <elliott> Umea: Sweden's village of idiots!
21:39:31 <elliott> (They spell it Umea there because they can't type the o thing.)
21:39:44 <elliott> for the amount of stuff it can do
21:40:17 <Vorpal> elliott, err, end of Swedish upper qwerty row: uiopå
21:40:28 <Vorpal> that joke fails so horribly thus
21:40:30 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, they're retarded, you see
21:40:37 <elliott> they don't know what that key does
21:40:46 <elliott> in school they're taught the alphabet
21:40:56 <elliott> conveniently, that's Umea backwards
21:40:59 <elliott> which is how it got its name
21:41:10 * Sgeo has a low resource machine that he wants a GUI install on
21:41:12 <Vorpal> you are just too far fetched to be funny
21:41:21 <elliott> Vorpal: and you quote Monty Python?
21:41:28 <Sgeo> Let me clarify: My previous statement is NOT in support of Umeaboy
21:41:40 <elliott> Sgeo: you can't use a text installer? seriously?
21:41:57 <Sgeo> ..Oh, _GUI Installer_ is the question?
21:42:07 <Sgeo> I thought it was "To install X and related stuff, or not"
21:42:13 <elliott> he just downloaded mini.iso
21:42:15 <elliott> which is the tiny tiny ISO
21:42:19 <elliott> which of course only has a textual install.
21:42:25 <elliott> the debian graphical installer is very nice.
21:43:02 <Sgeo> Can I set up Debian to be suitable for ancient laptop? I guess I'd be choosing packages myself
21:43:32 <elliott> debian will run on just about anything.
21:43:42 <Vorpal> ais523, I found adanaxis near impossible and a bit too fast paced to play
21:43:45 <elliott> you could be adventurous and try ~NETBSD~
21:43:53 <Vorpal> ais523, even on easy the AI is very very good
21:44:00 <Sgeo> I want it to be easy to use
21:44:23 <Sgeo> I have not the foggiest idea
21:44:30 <Sgeo> Is NetBSD even supported?
21:44:31 <ais523> Vorpal: get used to strafing
21:44:38 <elliott> it powers a good portion of the internet.
21:44:38 <ais523> the AI is good, but its weapons aren't particularly good
21:44:45 <Gregor> Sgeo: Of course it runs NetBSD.
21:44:47 <ais523> so if you spend a lot of time dodging, they mostly can't hit you
21:44:51 <catseye> put X and Gnome Desktop and whatever on it and there you go, easy to use
21:44:52 <ais523> also, your weapons have a /very/ long range
21:44:56 <elliott> Sgeo: it's more supported than Linux.
21:44:56 <Vorpal> ais523, hm, how do you strafe in the 4th dimension?
21:45:02 <elliott> i'll even be so bold to say
21:45:07 <Vorpal> ais523, is it q + a and d then?
21:45:09 <ais523> Vorpal: who cares; you can dodge in any direction you like
21:45:16 <catseye> elliott: sure, what the hell
21:45:19 <ais523> just use a and d to strafe, and the mouse to change which directions those mean
21:45:27 <Vorpal> ais523, yes that isn't the issue as much as the AI dodging me
21:45:39 <ais523> your weapons are homing; as long as you're locked on when you fire, you won't be dodged
21:45:40 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
21:45:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:45:47 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:45:47 <ais523> you can tell you're locked on because the fire cursor changes
21:45:57 <Sgeo> Now that I have a notebook, Ancient Laptop doesn
21:45:58 <Vorpal> ais523, really? that pdf didn't agree on that completely
21:46:00 <ais523> and potentially hit from a very long distance, as long as you aim well enough to get the lock
21:46:03 <Sgeo> doesn't seem cute anymore
21:46:04 <ais523> Vorpal: it depends on which weapon you use
21:46:11 <ais523> the machine gun doesn't, for instance, so only really works at short range
21:46:14 <ais523> but the basic weapon homes just fine
21:46:18 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't know, I never seen any weapon boxes
21:46:30 <Vorpal> ais523, so I haven't been able to pick any up
21:47:45 <catseye> weapon boxes considered harmful
21:48:02 <ais523> you don't get weapon boxes on the first few levels
21:48:07 <ais523> shield and health boxes come up earlier
21:48:20 <Sgeo> Is there a way to coerce Win98 to understand WiFi USB thingies?
21:48:23 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't seem to have more than the green weapon?
21:48:26 <Sgeo> That might be the best
21:48:57 <elliott> only with a zombie raccoon
21:49:01 <ais523> Vorpal: green just means you're misaiming it
21:49:13 <ais523> the weapons are all white, but they go green if they go offcourse into the fourth dimension
21:49:16 <Vorpal> ais523, no I meant in the lower right corner
21:49:18 <elliott> quick, someone name my Debian VM
21:49:25 <ais523> oh, that's always green no matter what weapon you're using
21:50:04 <Vorpal> ais523, manual says I'm using the "Plasma Spitter"
21:50:07 <Vorpal> by matching up the image
21:50:42 <Vorpal> ais523, what about the blue mode? no chance to hit then?
21:51:21 <ais523> Vorpal: blue and red are the lock-on mode
21:51:29 <ais523> hold down the mouse button, and eventually you'll blow up what you're aiming at
21:51:30 <Sgeo> Puppy Linux should work, right?
21:51:58 <catseye> Sgeo: just lay down newspaper first
21:52:09 <elliott> i was thinking matryoshka for the nestedness
21:52:14 <Vorpal> ais523, sometimes it doesn't want to fire even when blue or red
21:52:24 <Vorpal> ais523, and no it isn't empty ammo
21:52:29 <Vorpal> I checked that of course
21:52:38 <Vorpal> ais523, mostly when the distance is long
21:52:40 <ais523> it fires no matter what sort of crosshairs you have
21:52:49 <ais523> but the bullets take a while to actually hit
21:52:57 <ais523> it's not an instant-hit weapon like the laser
21:53:58 <elliott> any suggestions other than marzipan?
21:54:14 <Vorpal> ais523, I never heard the gun sound or saw any bullets leaving
21:54:22 <Vorpal> ais523, surely that means "not fired"
21:54:34 <catseye> Dear Racket installer for Windows, you are the only remaining Windows installer that creates one of the "backdrop" windows to block out the rest of the screen. Congratulations on your anachronismus. Sincerely, C.
21:54:36 <ais523> sure you aren't muddling ammo and health?
21:54:41 <ais523> the ammo regenerates over time, health doesn't
21:54:56 <Vorpal> ais523, pretty sure yes
21:55:25 <ais523> in that case, I'm not sure
21:55:36 <elliott> catseye: Are you seriously just going to use windows?
21:57:23 <elliott> ais523: name my box, please, just to save me from the marzipan
21:57:36 <ais523> elliott: you want a hostname?
21:57:51 <elliott> ais523: well, yes. for my Debian testing installation inside a VM
21:58:02 <ais523> I don't see what's wrong with marzipan in that case...
21:58:11 <elliott> ais523: forget I even said marzipan :P
21:58:16 <ais523> or pick a random word from Wiktionary
21:58:24 <ais523> it's not like it's important, for a hostname in a VM, which can be changed later
21:58:36 <elliott> it's a pain to change though
21:58:41 <ais523> Wiktionary says "insinuates", btw
21:58:55 <elliott> ais523: a non-noun/adjective as a hostname?
21:59:06 <ais523> you could change the part of speech easily enough
21:59:10 <ais523> "insinuation" or whatever
22:01:29 <Sgeo> Would NetBSD be easy to use for someone not used to using computers?
22:01:37 <elliott> when you translate to latin in google translate
22:02:01 <ais523> Sgeo: it'd be much like, say, Nexenta
22:02:03 <elliott> Sgeo: maybe if you stuck gnome on it and taught them how to use it carefully with a strong understanding of HCI and how people interact with computers
22:02:18 * ais523 tries to give a useless question (that's missing far too much context to be useful) a useless answer
22:02:21 <elliott> Sgeo: if you don't have such an understanding, then you can't help them.
22:02:33 <elliott> and if you give them a computer you'll get 1,000,000,000,000 questions a day
22:03:59 <olsner> and that's a million million questions!
22:04:21 <fizzie> It's the million dollar question.
22:05:12 <olsner> a million dollars each? that's a lot of dollars
22:05:43 <elliott> That's as much as four tens.
22:06:14 <elliott> fizzie: save me from the marzipan
22:07:07 <oerjan> <ais523> the ammo regenerates over time, health doesn't <-- way to revert reality :D
22:07:31 <ais523> really, HP are an abstraction
22:09:31 <fizzie> elliott: Call it debian_testing_in_a_vm. That's a really imaginative name.
22:09:43 <elliott> catseye: that's what Gregor probably calls his machines
22:09:55 * oerjan averts overtly answering
22:10:27 <Gregor> elliott: Nope, my machines are of the form G[r]<machine-type>gor
22:10:32 <catseye> elliott: call it Ipsekhiphtl
22:11:30 <Gregor> machine-type is the CLASS of machine, not the ARCHITECTURE.
22:11:36 <Gregor> e.g. gdeskgor, glapgor
22:12:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:12:54 <elliott> Inexplicable things: Debian still defaults to ext3.
22:13:04 <ais523> is ext4 properly tested yet?
22:13:11 <elliott> ais523: it's the default in Ubuntu
22:13:14 <elliott> and has been for a few releases
22:13:18 <Gregor> But it doesn't taste like butterflies.
22:13:23 <ais523> yep, but Ubuntu changed the default to ext4 before it was working properly
22:13:30 <ais523> which is, I suppose, rather typical for Ubuntu...
22:13:31 <elliott> "On 15 January 2010, Google announced that it would upgrade its storage infrastructure from ext2 to ext4."
22:13:39 <ais523> I wasn't sure if it had been fixed since
22:13:41 <elliott> Dear God is it stable if Google are switching to it.
22:13:46 <elliott> catseye: too late, marzipan'd
22:13:56 <elliott> Yet even the testing installer defaults to ext4.
22:13:57 <ais523> catseye: I like the concept of facepalming someone else, btw
22:15:02 <ais523> elliott: not relatime?
22:15:14 <elliott> atime is basically useless
22:15:19 <elliott> no reason not to just disable it
22:15:34 <ais523> IIRC, relatime disables setting it in all situations except the ones that people actually occasionally use
22:16:05 -!- augur has joined.
22:16:06 <elliott> afaik nobody actually uses it even then
22:16:42 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/5HoE6.png
22:16:45 <ais523> atime is hilariously useless on Windows, btw
22:16:51 <Sgeo> .....I think my code tends to look like that
22:16:55 <ais523> because in order to display it, it access the file
22:16:56 <olsner> oh, adanaxis really failed with multiple monitors
22:16:59 <ais523> so it always shows the current time
22:17:10 <elliott> Sgeo: it's very obvious that the lines about ugly code
22:17:22 <elliott> the highlighted line, and the "(WTF IS READABILITY???)" line
22:17:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:17:34 <elliott> the first because of the different capitalisation and obvious "i'm a virgin" insult
22:17:36 <elliott> the second for the same reason
22:17:39 <elliott> also, the code isn't actually that unreadable
22:17:43 -!- augur has joined.
22:17:55 <Sgeo> Ok. Because I can imagine my code looking a bit like that
22:17:58 <elliott> (although another image suggests it has an XSS in it that the developer acknowledged in a comment :) )
22:18:41 <elliott> Namesys is now officially "suspended" as a corporation
22:18:55 <elliott> [[Their website has not been accessible since November 2007. Edward Shishkin, a Namesys employee, was quoted in a January 2008 CNET article as saying that "commercial activity of Namesys has stopped".[3]]]
22:21:22 <Sgeo> elliott, that's not an XSS
22:21:43 <Sgeo> Well, I suppose SQL Injection could be used for that for some weird reason
22:21:57 <Sgeo> Well, not ... /me forgot the exact definition of XSS
22:22:04 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:22:24 <Sgeo> I know it involves putting malicious stuff in the page that someone else sees and seems to come from a trusted source
22:22:27 <Sgeo> Stealing cookies etc.
22:22:40 <Sgeo> But would such a thing inserted via SQL Injection count?
22:22:50 <Sgeo> It wouldn't really be "cross-site"
22:22:54 -!- wareya has joined.
22:28:54 <fizzie> Sgeo: In addition to the (probable) sql injection bit, it also uses "state" directly as part of the generated page; you can stick a script in there, that's something that would be considered XSSy, I would think.
22:29:55 <Vorpal> elliott, ais523: I did nm -C on adanaxis... and looked for the longest prototype. It is 1281 chars long!
22:30:48 <Vorpal> that is some templately thing from libstdc++
22:31:46 <Vorpal> hm it isn't the longest one when you look at the mangled name for it
22:33:17 <Vorpal> ah yeah, the standard types have shorthands in iirc
22:39:59 <catseye> so, um. looks like i can't download the JDK without a user account, now?
22:40:20 <catseye> or is it just that oracle mucked up the site?
22:44:50 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:46:09 <Vorpal> why not just use openjdk?
22:46:42 <elliott> Gregor: Explain this monstrosity: http://imgur.com/JWR4K.png
22:48:10 <Gregor> elliott: Somewhere I have a screenshot of OpenSolaris' install where it lets you select "no language"
22:48:26 <elliott> Gregor: I actually have on fucking idea which option to select.
22:48:34 <elliott> It's totally not my problem distro. I didn't even select the advanced install.
22:48:39 <elliott> Do whatever you feel's best, man.
22:48:42 <ais523> Gregor: what does that correspond to? C locale?
22:48:44 <Gregor> Remember, ignoring it is always the right option.
22:48:57 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, but, I'm not convinced it's selected a UK layout.
22:49:08 <ais523> it might be better expressed as "program default language (usually English)"
22:49:11 <Gregor> Then select a keymap from the full list.
22:49:32 <Gregor> ais523: This was what to set $LANG to by default, so that doesn't QUITE make sense.
22:49:47 <ais523> set it, by default, to the default
22:49:51 <ais523> that makes sense, doesn't it?
22:50:10 <elliott> I just wouldn't even offer an option to use C as $LANG.
22:50:18 <elliott> Is that *ever* a good idea for a system-wide setting?
22:50:36 <Vorpal> elliott, is that the debian installer?
22:50:44 <oerjan> <Gregor> elliott: Somewhere I have a screenshot of OpenSolaris' install where it lets you select "no language" <-- i now imagine an OS where all messages are given as interpretive dance videos
22:50:44 <elliott> Vorpal: but it's the nightly build
22:50:45 <Vorpal> elliott, for debian linux?
22:50:48 <elliott> so ic an forgive the unusability
22:50:50 <Vorpal> elliott, or debian/hurd?
22:50:59 <Vorpal> elliott, then "wtf" :P
22:51:02 <elliott> but no way does it have a graphical install
22:51:09 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:51:10 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's a nightly build of the installer
22:51:18 <Vorpal> elliott, could be debian/somebsd
22:51:35 <Vorpal> elliott, select from full list probably
22:51:53 <Vorpal> elliott, since the "select keymap from arch list" is missing there
22:52:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well if you have US international it probably works
22:52:19 <elliott> also, i set United Kingdom as my location before, so
22:52:22 <Vorpal> elliott, thought that was some header
22:52:59 <Vorpal> elliott, the selection played tricks on the apparent colour of the first element
22:53:03 <elliott> I think debian-installer is the only program that pulls off using the exact same interface on the console and graphically.
22:53:03 -!- wareya has joined.
22:53:06 <Vorpal> elliott, it looked like the background is darker
22:53:09 <elliott> Surprisingly it's not hideous.
22:53:15 <Vorpal> elliott, optical illusion I think
22:53:29 <elliott> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/309724/optical/same-color-illusion.png
22:53:30 <Vorpal> elliott, but only at a specific distance from the screen
22:53:39 <elliott> possibly the most striking optical illusion of all
22:53:57 <elliott> and still impossible to believe without verifying
22:53:58 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, why dropbox?
22:54:12 <elliott> No, Debian, I don't want the graphical desktop environment.
22:55:09 <elliott> <roOoty> btw, i don't want to have that clonky large font size look and fell in the terminal, i want the ubuntu one! how can i achieve it?
22:55:10 <elliott> <jpinx-eeepc> roOoty: just get logged in first
22:55:10 <elliott> <roOoty> jpinx-eeepc: yes, but i want to know if it is worht all the logging in or if it would be better to stick with ubuntu or something :)
22:55:12 <elliott> i have learned something today
22:55:16 <elliott> #debian makes me want to stab people
22:55:29 <Gregor> elliott: btw, the text install asks that question in a very different way, and I never use the graphical installer, which is why I have no answer :P
22:55:30 <elliott> specifically, any Ubuntu or Mandriva user who comes into #debian will then proceed to be maximally imbecilic
22:55:43 <oerjan> elliott: i thought everywhere did that to you
22:55:44 <elliott> Gregor: No, no, there's the same questions in both.
22:55:50 <elliott> Gregor: This will just be a nightly-build issue/thing.
22:55:55 <elliott> Gregor: Or perhaps a NEW INSTALLER FEATURE
22:56:03 <elliott> i like most people in #esoteric!
22:56:11 <elliott> even Vorpal i wouldn't stab. probably.
22:56:18 <elliott> Gregor: I'd already told it my location, so.
22:57:03 <Vorpal> elliott, you have in the past iirc
22:57:18 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, over irc I meatn
22:57:23 <elliott> I am truley sorry for your lots.
22:57:42 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:58:31 <elliott> Wait. It surely can't have netinstalled already.
22:58:40 <elliott> I guess it installed all the packages before asking that silly question.
22:59:06 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:59:16 <Vorpal> elliott, did that other elliott use the nick "elliott" or ?
22:59:18 <Sgeo> " The malicious spreadsheet would find it very hard to get access to ".ssh": why would the user choose ".ssh" if Gnumeric opened a powerbox out of the blue without a good reason?"
22:59:25 <elliott> Vorpal: elliottcable and ec
22:59:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm upgrading the nick normalising regexp
22:59:26 <Sgeo> Because users are clueless
22:59:31 <Vorpal> elliott, ah no collision then
22:59:41 <Sgeo> If the dodgy spreadsheet can pop up a dialog claiming to go to this or that file...
22:59:44 <elliott> wow! I think Debian has...
22:59:47 -!- wareya has joined.
22:59:51 <elliott> I think Debian automatically installed the VirtualBox drivers.
23:00:03 <elliott> I appear to have mouse integration *on the console*.
23:00:09 <elliott> Gregor: Hey, how old is that new console font?
23:00:16 <elliott> The thin-ish one with the fancy g.
23:00:21 <ais523> elliott: is this stable, unstable, or testing?
23:00:26 <elliott> And the strangely short p.
23:00:31 <elliott> ais523: aka squeeze right now
23:00:33 <Gregor> elliott: On a scale from one to ten, I have no fucking clue.
23:00:36 <Sgeo> "A piece of text that can be displayed in the powerbox window to describe why the application wants to be granted some authority.
23:00:37 <elliott> which is frozen, and will become the stable release in like 349587345 years
23:00:40 <Sgeo> That makes it even easier
23:01:02 <ais523> this explains why they removed C-INTERCAL, at least
23:01:06 <elliott> ais523: You should use testing when it's thawed, too...
23:01:21 <ais523> it made sense, I was just wondering "why then"
23:01:26 <ais523> no, I'm not bitter, I agree with the decision
23:02:31 <Vorpal> ais523, why did they remove it?
23:03:45 -!- catseye has joined.
23:03:49 <Sgeo> Are there any easy-to-use distros that use Plash by default? If not, there should be.
23:04:37 <elliott> I hate the part where things don't use sudo by default.
23:04:43 <elliott> Gregor: You use sudo, right? See, that's a bad thing about Debian.
23:04:48 <elliott> It doesn't use sudo by default because it's run by nazis.
23:05:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: You straight-up can't use it on anything but Debian (or Debian-based).
23:05:24 <pikhq> elliott: Debian didn't automatically install the VirtualBox drivers for *me*.
23:05:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Because Plash does fucking *crazy* shit that's Debian-specific.
23:05:40 <Gregor> pikhq: I'm sure with sufficient hackery you COULD use it on other distros, but it wouldn't be fun.
23:05:44 <elliott> pikhq: I may be hallucinating, but VirtualBox definitely told me it saw sum of dat mouse integration support. On the *console*.
23:05:53 <pikhq> elliott: Holy fuck that's awesome.
23:05:56 <Vorpal> elliott: select count(*) from irc.logs_na where type = 1 and nick = 'elliott' and body like 'stabs %'; yields 24. Apart from one case of stabbing RMS and one case of stabbing your own eye (using a rake), they were all nicks in the channel at that point of time.
23:06:07 <elliott> i received root's mail just there
23:06:08 <pikhq> elliott: Which Debian and which install media?
23:06:10 <Vorpal> elliott, the first one happened one year and two days ago
23:06:11 <elliott> (sudo warning that i'm not in sudoers)
23:06:14 <Sgeo> Why does it do Debian specific stuff?
23:06:19 <elliott> and this is after i rebooted
23:06:26 <pikhq> elliott: Same; didn't see that after rebooting.
23:06:30 <elliott> "one case of stabbing your own eye (using a rake)"
23:06:45 <Vorpal> elliott, sorry, the first one happened in 2008
23:06:50 <Sgeo> Nono, he stabbed the RAKE
23:07:01 <elliott> Sgeo: No, that was catseye.
23:07:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, the body of the CTCP action was "stabs his eyes out with a rake"
23:08:05 <Vorpal> the UTC-normalised timestamp is "2008-08-09 16:02:45" if anyone cares
23:08:06 <elliott> ais523: what happened to Gobuntu?
23:08:18 <ais523> elliott: I don't know, I wasn't keeping track
23:08:27 <elliott> it appears to have spontaneously ceased to exist before ever being released
23:08:37 <ais523> perhaps they decided they were being outcompeted by Debian or something
23:08:44 <catseye> OK! Now for the *experiment*
23:09:22 <Sgeo> So, some thingy based off of Ubuntu, forked and pushed with Plash preconfigured
23:09:36 <elliott> Basing things on Ubuntu: the best way to quickly show you have no idea what anything.
23:09:48 <Sgeo> Base it on Debian, then
23:09:50 <Vorpal> elliott, what was gobuntu?
23:09:57 <elliott> Vorpal: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/taking-freedom-further
23:10:06 <elliott> I could explain it to you, but that comic does it perfectly well, and funnier.
23:10:22 <Sgeo> Plash wants Debian. I want easy-to-use
23:10:30 <elliott> Sgeo has never used Debian. Or Plash.
23:11:04 <elliott> It is obscene how many drivers come with X.org on Debian.
23:11:18 <Sgeo> elliott, true...
23:11:30 <Vorpal> elliott, ever looked how many are installed on ubuntu?
23:11:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I think it is best for my sanity that I do not.
23:11:38 <Vorpal> elliott, a shitload as well
23:12:01 <catseye> Sgeo: what OSes have you used?
23:12:05 <Vorpal> elliott, about 20 video drivers and 10 or so input drivers
23:12:31 <Vorpal> elliott, that is, number of separate packages
23:12:32 <oerjan> <elliott> Gregor is eating nerds. <-- more filling than babies, i assume
23:12:36 <Vorpal> elliott, not number of supported chipsets
23:12:39 <elliott> Do not put the nerd in the mouth.
23:12:41 <Sgeo> Windows, um, you want a list of Linux distros? Ubuntu, Freespire
23:12:41 <Vorpal> which would be way higher
23:12:53 <catseye> oerjan: unless they are baby nerds. or nerd babies?
23:13:16 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you installing debian?
23:13:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, why not netbsd!?
23:13:37 <Vorpal> it is soooooo much better isn't it
23:13:39 <elliott> Vorpal: NetBSD hates my VMs!
23:13:46 <elliott> With QEMU there's no networking, far as I can tell.
23:13:51 <elliott> With VirtualBox it *segfaults* trying to boot up.
23:13:57 <olsner> so kitten will be a debian fork then? great...
23:14:03 <Sgeo> Freespire is dead?
23:14:17 <oerjan> catseye: can you detect nerdiness in babies?
23:14:19 <elliott> Sgeo has like the worst taste in everything.
23:14:31 <elliott> olsner: I've only installed Debian to do some LeanDE mockups.
23:14:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, freespire? what, is that like taking the shitty linspire and removing everything that made it different?
23:14:52 <elliott> olsner: (LeanDE = a few pieces of software + configurations for them, constituting a desktop environment that sucks ever so slightly less.)
23:15:03 <Sgeo> Hey, there was a Linux distro that I hated once
23:15:07 <Sgeo> Linux XP, iirc
23:15:09 <elliott> Vorpal: The only good thing about the Linspire folks is that they used Haskell for a lot of their system software.
23:15:18 <Vorpal> elliott, that is actually nice
23:15:46 <Sgeo> Kept asking me for money. Looked like crap. Don't remember if it behaved like crap
23:15:49 <elliott> heh, Debian's default X11 configuration no longer uses twm
23:15:53 <elliott> it's just a gigantic, white-on-black xterm
23:15:56 <elliott> covering the entire screen
23:15:57 <Vorpal> elliott, hm would it be a good idea to switch to writing security sensitive software in haskell? Such as su and sudo.
23:16:12 <elliott> Vorpal: probably not. because you have to trust GHC
23:16:21 <Vorpal> elliott, ah good point
23:16:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you want a much smaller runtime
23:16:27 <elliott> you want to get the password
23:16:31 <elliott> and then GET RID OF IT IMMEDIATELY
23:16:37 <elliott> you can do that in haskell by using pointers and stuff but
23:16:38 <Vorpal> elliott, very good point
23:16:46 <elliott> of course there could be a nice abstraction for that but there isn't one yet
23:16:56 <elliott> so as it stands, no, i wouldn't trust haskell with such things
23:17:01 <elliott> utilities and package managers though, sure
23:17:01 <Vorpal> elliott, you want to mlock() the password too
23:17:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:17:26 <Vorpal> elliott, the issue is trusting C with this....
23:17:41 <elliott> Vorpal: well C itself is perfectly trustable, it's the C coding itself
23:17:49 <catseye> potentially you could hash it as it comes in and discard each character after it's hashed. ha
23:17:56 <olsner> in C, it would probably be simple enough that you can read it and determine that it looks safe :)
23:17:57 <elliott> Vorpal: and I bloody hope sudo's password handling code is careful
23:18:15 <elliott> hahahaahahahahahahahahahahaa
23:18:19 <elliott> Ahahahahaahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa
23:18:53 <olsner> ... and from that day, elliott spoke only in combinations of 'a' and 'h'
23:19:03 <Vorpal> elliott, hm "* tusho stabs ais523's eyes out", not very nice
23:19:16 <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:19:26 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:19:32 <elliott> Vorpal: HE PROBABLY DESERVED IT
23:20:01 <Gregor> Vorpal, elliott: The real question is why su and friends aren't compiled with compcert :P
23:20:08 <Vorpal> elliott, "* ehird stabs oerjan repeatedly with the Ancient Staff of http://www.google.com/chrome"
23:20:11 <zzo38> Does `addquote still work?
23:20:13 <Vorpal> that is quite absurd XD
23:20:27 <elliott> Gregor: compcert only compiles to ppc :P
23:20:37 <elliott> Vorpal: i believe he mentioned using IE
23:20:43 <Gregor> elliott: Nope, it supports x86 now.
23:20:45 <elliott> Gregor: We could use qemu.
23:20:47 <elliott> Gregor: To run the ppc code.
23:21:06 <elliott> Vorpal: formally verified C compiler
23:21:17 <elliott> Gregor: So you like compcert then. So I guess you like academic, purely functional, sub-TC languages.
23:21:28 -!- calamari has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:21:29 <elliott> Vorpal: because you can't trust gcc and friends to compile code correctly.
23:21:32 <elliott> You can trust compcert in this way.
23:21:46 <olsner> "[09/2010] Version 1.8 of the Compcert C compiler is available. It includes [..] a new port generating x86-32 bits code"
23:22:06 <elliott> I was wrong, the xterm doesn't cover the screen
23:22:08 <Vorpal> elliott, well... that depends on the reasoning about x86 code being correct
23:22:10 <elliott> it's just that the screen is black, too
23:22:16 <elliott> Vorpal: it's formally verified. with Coq.
23:22:40 <elliott> oh, compcert is actually programmed in Caml
23:22:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, but that means whoever told coq about what the asm did had better not typo :P
23:22:45 <olsner> oh, have they removed the insanely ugly checkerboard pattern in X?
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23:22:58 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't think you quite understand
23:22:59 -!- HackEgo has joined.
23:23:06 <Gregor> elliott: You have no faculty to understand that ":P" means "I am not being serious here!"
23:23:10 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:23:24 <elliott> Gregor: You have clearly never conversed with Vorpal before.
23:23:39 <zzo38> O, that must be why it didn't work.
23:23:49 <elliott> hmm, how does stuff set the default X11 resolution in this bright new xorg.conf-less age?
23:23:54 <Gregor> zzo38: Thanks for pointing out that it was down.
23:23:58 <Vorpal> elliott, ";P" means "not being serious". ":P" means either that or "hah, take that"
23:24:03 <Vorpal> at least when I use them
23:24:27 <elliott> <elliott> hmm, how does stuff set the default X11 resolution in this bright new xorg.conf-less age?
23:24:27 <catseye> I *can* burn DVDs under Windows.
23:24:30 <zzo38> And yet it still seems slow?
23:24:37 <elliott> catseye: NetBSD. Burn. Go.
23:24:50 <Vorpal> elliott, gnome-monitor-settings or something ;P
23:24:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, what do *they* do?
23:24:59 <pikhq> elliott: Whaddya mean, "stuff"?
23:25:01 <Gregor> zzo38: It always takes a long time the first time.
23:25:05 <Vorpal> elliott, call xrandr maybe?
23:25:10 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, that. MAAAGIIIC
23:25:16 <elliott> Vorpal: What, and have X11 switch to a bad resolution even beforehand?
23:25:27 <Vorpal> elliott, oh that. Magic
23:25:42 <pikhq> elliott: I'm pretty sure that you create an xorg.conf.
23:25:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you are asking about deep black magic.
23:25:56 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you expect.
23:26:07 <Sgeo> So, what's my epic misunderstanding about Plash?
23:26:15 <elliott> Apparently to X11, white means "another kind of checkerboard".
23:26:31 <elliott> I just used -fg instead of -solid.
23:26:49 <zzo38> Gregor: What does it have to do, make a telephone call? Copy an entire hard drive? Request permission from a million servers? Make slow magic spell?
23:27:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think anyone except a handful of select initiates that passed the rite of being X developers know how you set the defaults any more
23:27:03 <elliott> Gregor: It is totally broken my friend.
23:27:41 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think there's a single person left in the world who likes X11 now.
23:28:05 <HackEgo> 244|<zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:28:40 <pikhq> Not even the X11 devs.
23:29:04 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/gKWJ
23:29:27 <Sgeo> I have never stabs anyone1
23:29:42 <elliott> Minimalist xorg.conf = contradiction
23:29:55 <Sgeo> Is type=1 /me?
23:30:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes, and you fail at sql syntax too
23:30:14 <Sgeo> That would make sense, especially since there can't be text at the beginning
23:30:19 <Sgeo> Other than stabs
23:30:24 <catseye> all options for accessing linux parts from windows vista seem a bit unwholesome, so I'm going to boot into Ubuntu and copy to here instead
23:30:45 * Sgeo stabs procrastinatory tiredness
23:30:49 <elliott> pikhq: AARGH. It seems that what most things do is just *make gdm/whatever run xrandr -s*.
23:30:58 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and postgresql is way faster than sqlite at queries
23:31:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, you might find that useful to know as well
23:31:24 <zzo38> Once HackEgo started working, now it works faster, it is no longer as slowly.
23:31:31 <Sgeo> So it's shift-click that's the annoying fucking prick
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23:32:27 <Sgeo> Oh... I think I just remembered why I generally gon't get IRC stabby
23:33:37 <zzo38> I tried changing things in .fmt files for TeX, to see what happens.
23:34:28 <elliott> http://www.auto-west.blogspot.com – It over driven with steam vehicles, was thought already in XVII in. Priest from Flanders, Ferdinand Verbiest, such driven with steam vehicle had in 1678 allegedly to introduce Chinese emperor, however there are no no proofs on this. Therefore it for first constructor of car recognise Nicolas – Joseph Cugnot which presented in 1769. Next important period such car in history of car are summer about 1870. Sieg
23:34:28 <elliott> fried Marcus constructed first car driven with petrol then. It was can not be sure who first engine about burning constructed internal. It recognise that this made almost simultaneously several German engineers, independently from me. Karl Benz constructed in 1885 first car in Mannheim, patent soon later received and he in 1888 began production. Gottlieb Daimler together with from Wilhelmem Maybachem in 1889 in Stuttgarcie designed acting on simi
23:34:39 <zzo38> Including making category codes that are not in range, and making a macro with expansion that has unbalanced {}
23:35:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://www.auto-west.blogspot.com – [...] <-- url fail
23:35:33 <Vorpal> "Sorry, the blog you were looking for does not exist. However, the name auto-west is available to register! "
23:36:03 <Vorpal> elliott, where did you find that
23:36:11 <elliott> http://tuxicity.wordpress.com/2006/12/02/configure-your-resolution-in-ubuntu-and-debian/
23:36:58 <Vorpal> elliott, for me it automagically uses best resolution
23:37:18 <oerjan> <HackEgo> 244| [...] <-- that took _five_ minutes?
23:37:19 <elliott> here it chooses one that gives me *scrollbars* in the vm window
23:37:19 <Vorpal> elliott, oh good question
23:37:29 <elliott> i could just X -configure but blergh
23:37:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, the VM is overloaded I think
23:37:50 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:38:15 <Vorpal> Gregor, why is codu.org timing out?
23:38:37 <Gregor> Vorpal: Trac or everything else?
23:38:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, the repo listed in `help
23:39:50 <Gregor> Yeah, lots of things have been going weird recently :(
23:40:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, the metadata in http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/dbc0ae026888/quotes/quote.db looks outdated
23:40:10 <Vorpal> it was changed more recently than that
23:40:12 <Vorpal> `run stat quotes/quote.db
23:40:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, check top, is it overloaded?
23:40:46 <elliott> pikhq: What is XFCE's official display manager?
23:40:47 <Gregor> Vorpal: Right now it most certainly is, I'm poking at it and doing shit :P
23:40:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, if not, then your xen host is overloaded and you need to change
23:40:51 <HackEgo> File: `quotes/quote.db' \ Size: 28672Blocks: 56 IO Block: 4096 regular file \ Device: ca01h/51713d Inode: 1551941 Links: 1 \ Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2010-10-17 22:40:08.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2010-10-17 22:40:08.000000000 +0000 \ Change:
23:41:16 <Vorpal> `run file quotes/quote.db
23:41:22 <HackEgo> quotes/quote.db: SQLite 3.x database
23:41:28 <Vorpal> `run du -sh quotes/quote.db
23:41:39 <Vorpal> `run sqlite3 quotes/quote.db VACUUM
23:41:47 <Vorpal> `run du -sh quotes/quote.db
23:41:49 <elliott> pikhq: Okay: if XFCE released a LiveCD, what display manager would it use?
23:42:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Or anything, as far as you know :P
23:43:00 * Gregor proceeds to aptitude full-upgrade Codu as if that's a solution.
23:43:00 <Vorpal> elliott, was that the command?
23:43:12 <Vorpal> elliott, your quote adding seems like it didn't get registered
23:43:20 <Vorpal> elliott, which is why I tested something on the db
23:43:22 <HackEgo> 243|<fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
23:43:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, why did "<HackEgo> 244|<zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream" never get registered
23:43:38 <elliott> Gregor: full-upgrade. ANOTHER command?
23:43:57 <Gregor> elliott: It's equivalent to dist-upgrade.
23:44:05 <elliott> Gregor: i thought safe-upgrade was thet hing.
23:44:18 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:44:18 <Gregor> Vorpal: Presumably it failed to merge.
23:44:24 <olsner> upgrade was unsafe, safe-upgrade was too conservative, dist-upgrade upgrades everything?
23:44:29 <Gregor> elliott: safe-upgrade is upgrade.
23:44:37 <HackEgo> 244|<zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:44:37 <olsner> I wonder why upgrade couldn't just be fixed
23:44:43 <elliott> Bleh, I have no idea about any of these stupid commands.
23:45:24 <elliott> pikhq: I just want a decent display manager!
23:45:34 <elliott> xdm is nice but you have to configure it tons with -- ugh -- Xresources.
23:45:41 <HackEgo> 244|<zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
23:46:20 <Vorpal> elliott, please stop that
23:46:28 <elliott> Vorpal: What, all two of them?
23:46:29 <Vorpal> elliott, the system is overloaded anyway
23:47:02 <Vorpal> I wonder what the load averages will be
23:48:07 <elliott> <HackEgo> 243|<fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
23:48:08 <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task.
23:48:08 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I'm waiting for the Routing Information Protocol to be superseded. Know why?
23:48:20 <Vorpal> elliott, so I can say "RIP RIP"
23:48:40 <oerjan> fungot: you're relevant as always
23:48:41 <fungot> oerjan: what's different? it seems pointless to have vector-set! and vector-ref. ( hm, this button should be about 100 mbps both directions. at least, i think
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23:49:30 <Vorpal> `addquote <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task.
23:49:30 <fungot> Vorpal: sounds pretty cool. very similar, and i'd like to see source code.) good stuff. i just think it would
23:49:49 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, please stop that
23:49:49 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, the system is overloaded anyway
23:50:06 <Gregor> I'm lovin' how while I'm doing a dist-upgrade and super-overloading the system everybody wants to use it :P
23:50:07 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a sucky system too
23:50:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, my system is was more responsive than that when dist-upgrading from jaunty to karmic and karmic to lucid
23:51:02 <elliott> I'll just defer to Gregor here.....
23:52:03 <elliott> http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/Wajig_Overview.html Wow.
23:52:06 <elliott> That is a lot of commands.
23:52:09 <HackEgo> 22:52:03 up 19 days, 4:27, 0 users, load average: 15.92, 12.08, 8.42
23:52:14 <Gregor> It's not, but recently it's been pretty bad. I don't know if it's an issue with prgmr or me.
23:52:27 <elliott> http://wajig.togaware.com/gjig-screenshot.jpg lol
23:52:36 <elliott> Gregor: well prgmr are full
23:52:36 <HackEgo> 210|<alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
23:52:54 <zzo38> When they run out of letters for Ubuntu codenames and don't want to repeat anymore, then they will use letters from other language and make it up themself
23:52:59 <elliott> "We added 3 new servers so far this month, and have gotten through the waiting list. Ordering is open for now and more parts are on order. we will try our best to keep up with demand. Right now, there is a 24 hour backlog to do provisioning."
23:53:06 <elliott> zzo38: no they won't, they'll just start from the first letter or change the name
23:53:12 <elliott> also, there's a decade or two before that will happen.
23:53:25 <HackEgo> 22:53:24 up 19 days, 4:29, 0 users, load average: 10.93, 11.53, 8.53
23:53:31 <Vorpal> elliott, what is http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/Wajig_Overview.html really?
23:53:37 <elliott> Vorpal: a frontend to apt and stuff.
23:53:38 <Vorpal> elliott, it says how it works but not what it is
23:53:46 <elliott> package management and shit.
23:53:50 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, nothing wrong with apt-get and aptitude
23:53:52 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
23:54:04 <elliott> well some of the commands look useful
23:54:06 <Vorpal> elliott, (apt-get because aptitude source won't work, while apt-get source will!)
23:54:17 <elliott> Vorpal: no aptitude in latest ubuntu :)
23:54:19 <elliott> you have to install it yourself
23:54:29 <elliott> (it's to save ~megabytes~ on disc so they can put shitty applications there instead)
23:54:35 <elliott> (it's to save ~megabytes~ on disc so they can put shitty applications there instead)
23:54:39 <elliott> apparently it saves like 13 MiB
23:54:39 <HackEgo> 245|<fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task.
23:54:43 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it arrived same second :P
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23:55:01 <elliott> Gregor: prgmr supports netbsd which is cool CAN YOU TELL I WANT TO USE NETBSD
23:55:02 <Vorpal> elliott, but apt-get is still there?
23:55:25 <HackEgo> 22:55:24 up 19 days, 4:31, 0 users, load average: 6.87, 10.18, 8.43
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23:57:21 <zzo38> I need to make commands in TeX for modifying the eqtb[] and various other things directly, so that you can write \the\equiv\basethe\catcode0
23:58:09 <zzo38> And also \dvibinary to send arbitrary binary data into the DVI file, and trick the page position
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00:09:10 <oerjan> i assume that means we are doomed.
00:09:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, we always been
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00:11:00 <catseye> Mounting NTFS filesystems read-write should be stable on Ibex? Do you think so, what is your opinion?
00:12:20 <Vorpal> catseye, on karmic or later with ntfs-3g "yes"
00:12:53 <Vorpal> catseye, but I wouldn't do it on ibex
00:13:06 <Vorpal> catseye, just upgrade ... duh
00:14:00 <catseye> no risk of losing the files I'm trying to copy onto the NTFS filesystem by doing that
00:14:01 <Vorpal> catseye, do you have a large enough usb drive to hold a disk image of lucid or such? And an external hdd to back the whole disk to?
00:14:24 <Vorpal> dd if=/dev/sda1 /media/external-drive/whatever
00:14:31 <Gregor> I has a purry lap kitty!
00:14:48 <catseye> Gregor: so has me! aw she left
00:14:49 <Vorpal> catseye, once per partition since that is easier to loop-mount
00:15:21 <oerjan> catseye: it is clear that you need to sacrifice the goat here
00:15:24 <catseye> i can boot 10.10 live off the usb stick
00:15:38 <catseye> and mount both partitions r/w under that boot
00:15:54 <Vorpal> catseye, I would still be careful and back the partition up first
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00:16:45 <catseye> Vorpal: it's backed up. I made sure to back it up before restoring Windows. But I'd like to get the files onto DVD (I don't entirely trust external HDDs after my experience with my last one.)
00:16:46 <Vorpal> catseye, and remember: do it using ntfs-3g, not using the in-kernel drivers
00:17:33 <catseye> Vorpal: how do I tell the difference? in fstab (in Ibex) it just says 'ntfs-3g'
00:18:16 <Vorpal> catseye, ibex has early ntfs-3g?
00:19:00 <Vorpal> catseye, I mounted ntfs with ntfs-3g using the ntfs-3g command, never by fstab
00:19:45 <zzo38> Some of the programs I have written in Enhanced CWEB, it seems it should have bibliography section.
00:20:06 <Vorpal> zzo38, use bibtex then?
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00:20:49 <catseye> I would assume an ntfs-3g fstab entry is handled by the ntfs-3g command
00:21:24 <Vorpal> catseye, I wouldn't trust such an old version as that of ibex though
00:21:34 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: trying-this time!).
00:26:06 -!- catseye has joined.
00:27:34 <catseye> both drives are just available from the 'Places' menu. sweet.
00:29:30 <zzo38> Vorpal: BibTeX is one possibility. Or perhaps I can just write a TeX macro for bibliography, instead.
00:29:55 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
00:39:37 <pikhq> I GOT ACTUAL 24P OUT OF THIS
00:40:42 <pikhq> filmdint followed by phase=U. filmdint is a hybrid inverse teleciner and deinterlacer, and phase=U attempts to autodetect and correct interlacing that's at the wrong phase.
00:44:31 <pikhq> The *only* problem? Some of the frames are deinterlacer output, because for no good reason, some frames appear to only possess the bottom portions of the source 24p frame.
00:45:23 <pikhq> Ah, running phase=U before as well fixes some of *that*.
00:46:21 * Sgeo goes to install LyX
00:46:41 <Sgeo> zzo38, what's your opinion of LyX?
00:47:00 <pikhq> Better-than-source encode FTW.
00:48:20 <zzo38> Sgeo: I have not used it, but from what I see, I would prefer typing TeX codes in a text editor instead, including macros and category codes and all of that other stuff.
00:48:45 <zzo38> (Category codes is a feature of TeX which I use often.)
00:49:54 <zzo38> I suppose LyX is OK if you want to use LaTeX, though. But I don't use LaTeX.
00:50:43 <zzo38> (Because I think Plain TeX is superior)
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01:14:51 <quintopia> it is the millennium+10, and there is no more time for Mandelbrot
01:15:27 <oerjan> the future is _so_ last decade
01:25:03 * pikhq wonders why 25i video doesn't use 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 pulldown for 24p display
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01:36:43 <Sgeo> Note to self: Don't accept defaults just because they sound vaguely reasonable
01:37:00 <Sgeo> Asking me for each package whether or not to install it is NOT reasonable
01:37:15 * Sgeo unchecks something or other
01:41:03 <catseye> elliott: I think we can safely assume NetBSD will not be happening tonight.
01:42:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:44:04 <elliott> Sgeo: what are you installing?
01:44:26 <Sgeo> LyX, which needed to install MikTeX
01:44:44 <elliott> Sgeo: installing all latex packages is a good idea
01:44:52 <elliott> hey i just realised, i'm on at the same time every day
01:44:59 <elliott> since i wake up on weekends the same time i get back from school
01:45:20 <pikhq> You may have a sleep disorder.
01:46:12 <elliott> pikhq: i deem it "teenagerism"
01:46:15 <olsner> I may have a sleeping disorder too.
01:46:27 <elliott> pikhq: The great thing is, I can't medicate it legally!
01:46:28 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> hey i just realised, i'm on at the same time every day <pikhq> You may have a sleep disorder.
01:46:37 <elliott> pikhq: Melatonin is a prescription-only drug over here.
01:46:38 <olsner> nah, I'm just not sleeping properly, it's not a disorder
01:46:52 <elliott> And convincing a GP to prescribe melatonin... hahahhahahahahahaha never. happening.
01:46:59 <oerjan> dammit, hackego isn't here
01:48:24 * Sgeo should probably make some effort to do some homwork
01:48:51 * olsner makes an effort to sleep
01:51:29 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
01:52:12 <catseye> elliott: well, depends on how much longer it takes to copy, burn, etc.
01:52:47 * coppro wants to implement a generic tactical game engine in Haskell
01:54:38 <Sgeo> MikTeX isn't LaTeX?
01:55:00 <oerjan> coppro: in the type system!
01:55:46 <coppro> amusingly, it leads to a precise definition of a tactical game
01:59:49 <Sgeo> elliott, is Computer Modern an acceptable font to you?
02:00:15 <elliott> your question is beyond vague
02:00:27 <elliott> <oerjan> coppro: in the type system!
02:00:32 <elliott> I want to write a typechecker.
02:00:32 <Sgeo> To look at/use/whatever
02:01:15 <Sgeo> Is it visually pleasing with Lorem Ipsum?
02:01:26 <oerjan> elliott: the AI Emancipation Proclamation
02:01:44 <elliott> Sgeo: I refuse to answer typography questions about Lorem Ipsum...
02:06:09 <Sgeo> I assume that Yap is a DVI viewer?
02:06:58 <elliott> pikhq: http://fbpanel.sourceforge.net/index.html
02:11:56 <elliott> pikhq: Somehow setting the resolution with xrandr and rebooting... works.
02:12:11 * Sgeo decides to redo the LyX tutorial
02:12:19 <Sgeo> It's been years since I've touched LyX
02:13:07 <pikhq> elliott: That.. And. Why?
02:13:18 <elliott> pikhq: It... it remembers.
02:14:04 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, fbpanel looks like a nice dependency-free panel.
02:19:12 <pikhq> phase,filmdint,phase,telecine,phase,pullup,softskip
02:19:38 <pikhq> I can't *believe* that is the fucking chain I need to put it through to inverse telecine it without noticable artifacting.
02:21:12 <elliott> pikhq: LeanDE (Kitten's totally approverated desktop environment) as it is right now: lwm (perhaps a forked, slightly-enhanced version), fbpanel, Midori, ?
02:21:23 <pikhq> And now I can stop stopping the encode with a better idea. Because this is actually perfect.
02:21:40 <elliott> Might tweak fbpanel a bit so that the current window is actually de-pressed.
02:22:45 <elliott> pikhq: ...fbpanel tries to use slock by default :D
02:22:50 <elliott> suckless' locking program.
02:24:04 <elliott> pikhq: Heh, LXDE's lxpanel is a fork of fbpanel.
02:24:09 <elliott> Except made to be more RUBBISH LXDE CRAP
02:24:27 <pikhq> God dammit. It's mixed telecine and interlaced. Because it hates me. HATES HATE HATES.
02:24:37 <elliott> pikhq: More better ideas, eh?
02:24:52 <pikhq> elliott: No, just hatred.
02:25:52 <elliott> pikhq: Oh lawl, fbpanel opens applications you click as child processes.
02:25:56 <elliott> pikhq: Totally needs some patching.
02:26:00 <pikhq> Fuck it. What's the best deinterlacing filter for animation?
02:27:55 <Gregor> Not telecining in the first place X-P
02:28:26 <elliott> pikhq: You should totally install lwm and admire the awesomely-designed WM.
02:28:38 <GreaseMonkey> yay i now have a new sound test for bytepusher which doesn't have an irritating female robot voice
02:29:46 <pikhq> Linear blend appears to look best for animation.
02:30:06 <pikhq> And *still* needing the phase filter.
02:30:43 <elliott> Also features a Sufficiently Snarky Developer:
02:30:49 <elliott> "lwm is a window manager for X that tries to keep out of your face. There are no icons, no button bars, no icon docks, no root menus, no nothing: if you want all that, then other programs can provide it. There's no configurability either: if you want that, you want a different window manager; one that helps your operating system in its evil conquest of your disc space and its annexation of your physical memory."
02:30:56 <elliott> (Note: It has a few X resources to configure it.)
02:31:03 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, it's telecined. And then edited. And post processed. And then it has 30i cell-shaded 3D overlayed.
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02:31:16 <pikhq> Gregor: And for kicks, it's got the wrong interlacing.
02:32:07 <Gregor> pikhq: So presumably this is something from one source used in the background of a different thing?
02:32:46 <Gregor> (That's just the only way I can imagine it being that broken :P
02:33:08 <pikhq> Gregor: It's just Invader Zim, off of DVD.
02:33:17 <pikhq> They just *put it to disc like that*.
02:34:23 <pikhq> The screwed up interlacing absolutely astonishes me, though. I can't believe they managed to screw up the field order.
02:34:43 <Gregor> lol, seriously? That's ... pretty broken.
02:35:17 <pikhq> Yes. The mencoder phase filter was designed to fix that.
02:36:12 <pikhq> ... FOR PAL, BECAUSE THATS THE ONLY PLACE THAT HAPPENS NORMALLY.
02:36:23 <pikhq> (they use the opposite field order from NTSC)
02:39:01 <Gregor> phase filter documentation doesn't MENTION it only working in pal :P
02:48:46 <catseye> Mmmmaybe Mmmmmaverick can burn an ISO to DVD for mmmmme...?
02:50:42 <pikhq> Gregor: No, it's *meant* for PAL.
02:51:19 <pikhq> But it's flexible.
02:52:25 <GreaseMonkey> actually i should probably consider modifying it to play part of a rendering of cd_orbit.mod
03:00:17 <catseye> tworked! I have a NetBSD 5.0.2 install DVD. Quite glad I did not purchase the external DVD burner; it was just some problem in intrepid.
03:03:21 <pikhq> D'awww. ATSC allows for h264, but most ATSC TVs can't display it, so nobody broadcasts in it.
03:03:41 <pikhq> (h264 requires about half the bitrate for the same quality as MPEG2...)
03:10:14 <Gregor> It's also crazy-expensive to {en,de}code.
03:10:51 <Gregor> Well, it's CRAZY-expensive to encode. It's merely slightly more expensive to decode than what people are willing to put into TVs.
03:12:45 <Gregor> Yes. Behold my minus sign.
03:13:51 <GreaseMonkey> then again, tv manufacturers and broadcasters can probably pay for patent royalties
03:14:13 <Gregor> IIRC Theora is worse than it ought to be, VP8 is pretty OK, both are more expensive than MPEG2 or MPEG4, and less than H.264 (it doesn't take much to be less than H.264)
03:15:50 <pikhq> Gregor: VP8 is actually only *slightly* less expensive than H.264.
03:16:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Because it's fundamentally H.264 without the patent violating bits.
03:16:19 <pikhq> (at least, as far as is known)
03:16:22 <Gregor> Oh, is it? That's ... weird, I thought it was totally unrelated.
03:16:46 <pikhq> Nope. ffmpeg's VP8 encoder is a hack of its h264 encoder.
03:17:35 <pikhq> Also, it's only expensive to decode in software. With a hardware decoder, it's not at all difficult.
03:17:47 <pikhq> (they're fucking putting h.264 decoders in *phones* these days, man.)
03:21:56 * Gregor is failing to find any corroborating evidence of this comparison.
03:24:57 <quintopia> http://pics.spaceghetto.st/images/k9dnf.jpg sfw
03:26:55 <pikhq> Gregor: My fucking cell phone decodes h.264.
03:27:24 <Gregor> pikhq: I'm talking about corroborating evidence of the H.264-to-VP8 similarity.
03:29:12 * Gregor goes back to not caring :P
03:30:11 <coppro> I know someone who works of ffmpeg
03:30:34 <coppro> He was suggesting that they rename the fastest test profile from 'veryfast' to 'plaid'
03:31:01 <catseye> oerjan: I'm trying to figure out bits of category theory and bits of domain theory so I can understand what denotational arrows would be. I think I'm inching closer...
03:31:17 <Gregor> pikhq: My phone decodes H.264 too :P
03:31:31 <Gregor> (Probably in hardware)
03:32:42 <pikhq> Gregor: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/archives/377
03:33:37 <Gregor> Heh, just searching for "H.264" makes it pretty clear :P
03:33:49 <Gregor> So it's not that it's "based on" H.264 per se, it just rips off almost every aspect of it.
03:33:54 <pikhq> "VP8 is simply way too similar to H.264: a pithy, if slightly inaccurate, description of VP8 would be “H.264 Baseline Profile with a better entropy coder”."
03:34:00 <catseye> ok, brasero has spent twenty minutes "Creating image checksum" for a 650M image. I think it's broken.
03:34:46 <pikhq> On a slightly tangential note, it's a bit upsetting what happened to VC-1.
03:35:01 <pikhq> Microsoft tried to make a patent-free video codec.
03:35:15 <pikhq> Aaand patent trolls found some patents and set up a licensing group.
03:36:05 <Gregor> Same thing that happens whenever anybody tries to make anything patent-free.
03:36:28 <pikhq> Except when you go to great pains to make it unique or use old techniques.
03:36:35 <pikhq> (Vorbis and Theora, respectively)
03:36:36 <catseye> patent trolls are the sweetest kind of troll
03:37:38 <pikhq> Well. Theora's not *entirely* without patents. It just has a perpetual license granted to all of humanity for those patents...
03:37:53 -!- quintopia has left (?).
03:39:07 <GreaseMonkey> trick for bytepusher programmers: if you're doing just audio and no graphics, set the framebuffer to point to code where stuff is happening or something
03:39:37 <GreaseMonkey> also it's not a dumb idea to overlap the video and audio buffers
03:41:39 <catseye> that's... not always what i want to see when listening to audio, but, point taken
03:45:47 <pikhq> Hmm. MP3 should be patent-free soon. Awesome.
03:47:09 <pikhq> Though it's always ambiguous, it's *likely* that it'll be patent free by December 2012.
03:47:48 <pikhq> Likewise for MP1 and MP2.
03:48:18 <GreaseMonkey> http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/stuff/bytepusher/cd_orbit.BytePusher.gz
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03:50:44 <Gregor> There should be a video format that's actually just a bytecode format.
03:50:57 <Gregor> You include both the video and the code to decode and play it.
03:51:27 <pikhq> That would be wonderful for certain things.
03:51:43 <pikhq> Say, recordings from an emulator.
03:51:56 <pikhq> The "video" consists of the emulation for the video & sound chips and their inputs.
03:52:07 <pikhq> And vector video, yes.
03:52:20 <pikhq> From a vector arcade game. :P
03:52:32 <Gregor> And if you want conventional video, you stick a $YOUR_FAVORITE_CODEC decoder in there and you're done.
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04:05:58 <pikhq> And now I am truly, 100% satisified with how this encode is going.
04:06:10 <pikhq> IT TOOK ALL FUCKING DAY just to figure out how to make it not suck.
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04:09:41 <Sgeo> Gregor, malicious videos1
04:09:45 <Sgeo> Well, I guess not
04:10:09 <Sgeo> Or, actually. How much memory can the language request?
04:10:40 <Gregor> Way to get back your malicious videos through our good friend DoS :P
04:11:29 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'd imagine "as much as it can take before the video player comes to cockpunch the asshat that made the video."
04:12:18 <Gregor> Man, if I knew 100% more about video encoding but also knew what I do about PL, I'd totally make the procedural video codec.
04:12:26 <Gregor> Oh god it's PVC agaaaaaaaaaaain
04:13:05 <Gregor> PVC got mentioned as a coincidental initialism a couple days ago :P
04:14:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Probably the hardest thing about video encoding is realising that the patent trolls have made it nearly impossible to do anything in the field.
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04:15:13 <Gregor> That's the whole point of PlasticVideo :P
04:15:28 <pikhq> Alternately, flee the country.
04:16:00 <Gregor> Sgeo: Procedural Video Codec -> PVC -> PlasticVideo
04:16:11 <Sgeo> Somehow, I doubt that I'm interested in learning about how plastic gets.... Oh!
04:20:22 <Gregor> I guess it's not really a codec at all, is it :P
04:20:32 <Gregor> Well, maybe it is ... sort of.
04:20:45 <Gregor> It is to codecs as Fythe is to languages.
04:21:16 <Sgeo> Why is that sort of capitalization horrible everywhere else, but acceptable for TeX and LaTeX?
04:21:31 <coppro> because Knuth is special
04:23:04 <Gregor> You mean KNuTH. Vowels are lower-case.
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04:33:57 <pikhq> Oh, huh. MP2 is actually patent free.
04:34:36 <pikhq> Not by design, just coincidence.
04:36:06 <catseye> oerjan: maybe, if you have a notion of reduction in your language, you can have one object per term in the language, and morphisms to all the terms it would reduce to.
04:36:46 <catseye> *one morphism for each term it could reduce to.
04:37:26 <Gregor> Isn't MP2 audio kinda ... garbage?
04:37:52 <pikhq> Gregor: No. It's actually in common use in broadcasting still.
04:39:25 <pikhq> And it is most comparable to AAC, Vorbis, or other such modern codecs, starting at about 128 kbit/s.
04:39:45 <pikhq> MP3 took off because it has better performance at lower bit rates.
04:41:49 <pikhq> (MP2 was designed to have very high quality sound at 192 kbit/s and transparency at 256 kbit/s with the reference encoder, MP3 was designed to have *acceptable* performance at 128 kbit/s. Aaand then encoders improved.)
04:42:58 <pikhq> Oh, and MP3 is actually incapable of transparency. Literally incapable of it.
04:43:46 * Gregor wonders vaguely what it means for audio to be transparent.
04:44:09 <pikhq> Gregor: Perceptually identical to the uncompressed source.
04:44:24 <Gregor> Err ... that seems ... really difficult to define.
04:44:47 <Gregor> But different people have different sensitivities.
04:44:48 <pikhq> MP3 always has artifacting, it's just a matter of how annoying it is.
04:46:48 <pikhq> coppro: It's actually possible to have lossless JPEG, I *think*.
04:47:20 <Gregor> There is a /modification/ of JPEG to be lossless.
04:48:08 <pikhq> Gregor: No, the original JPEG standard defines a lossless scheme.
04:48:35 <Gregor> Yeah, which is totally unrelated to the non-lossless one and isn't implemented by anyone :P
04:49:30 <pikhq> And I'm pretty sure ordinary JPEG can be made lossless-modulo-rounding-errors just by setting the quantisation matrix right.
04:49:35 <Sgeo> How can it be impossible for something to have transparency? Is it always known that artifacts will be of a certain size?
04:50:02 <catseye> oerjan: but if your arrows take programs (representations) to their meanings (denotations), those are really two different kinds of object, so how is that a category, unless you do some sleight-of-hand? that's where I'm stuck at atm
04:50:02 <Sgeo> *at least of a certain size
04:50:09 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes, this is the case for MP3. The best it can have is not having very bad artifacting on certain sources.
04:51:23 <oerjan> maybe make it a functor and programs and meanings different categories
04:51:55 <catseye> oerjan: But "denotational functor" just doesn't have the same ring to it! oh well.
04:52:30 <oerjan> no but the arrows could be the arrows in the meaning/denotation category
04:53:07 <catseye> oh, er, ok... i suppose they could...
04:53:22 * catseye tries to visualize what those would mean
04:54:06 <catseye> compositionof meanings, i suppose
04:54:32 <catseye> ok, i need to appreciate more about functors for this to work itself out in my head now
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05:14:52 <pikhq> My God. I'm getting transparency at 450kbps.
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05:19:31 <Gregor> Your input is cell-shaded, yes?
05:21:46 <pikhq> Yes. Still quite impressive.
05:21:53 <pikhq> Well, cell-shaded, animated on cells, etc.
05:22:14 <pikhq> You'd think that'd be easy to compress.
05:22:26 <pikhq> The problem is, most encoders fail horribly at this.
05:22:29 <Gregor> Except that hard borders are the WORST things to compress.
05:23:03 <pikhq> Everything else is quite nice about it, but hard borders require a lot of pain.
05:23:07 <Gregor> Which is why I'm finding 450kbps semi-dubious, since I usually go for 1200 :P
05:23:30 <pikhq> I'm telling x264 to go for a target quality instead of a bitrate.
05:24:00 <pikhq> And it popped out a 450kbps average for this video. And it looks wonderful.
05:24:39 <Sgeo> What's the native format?
05:24:51 <pikhq> MPEG2 complying to DVD specs.
05:24:52 <Sgeo> I'm assuming video has to be stored as something
05:25:26 <pikhq> Which needed fiddling to come out well.
05:25:35 <Sgeo> How would PlasticVideo handle Worms replay files? Watching them requires having the game :(
05:26:00 <Sgeo> Might be a bit massive even to include a stripped down copy of the game with each file
05:26:24 <Gregor> Sgeo: You would have to convert them to some layers-and-sprites format.
05:26:50 <pikhq> It seems to be varying between 450 and 650 kbps average for these episodes.
05:28:20 <pikhq> Depending on the amount of cell-shaded 3D stuff in the episode, it seems.
05:29:16 <Gregor> pikhq: How does one make x264 do constant-quality? :P
05:29:40 <pikhq> Gregor: crf option.
05:30:28 <pikhq> The default, which is 23.0.
05:30:42 <Sgeo> I hate Chrome's hatred of Reddit
05:30:48 <pikhq> So... Just don't pass a bitrate option.
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05:31:06 <pikhq> I'm currently encoding with -x264encopts tune=animation:preset=slow
05:31:32 <pikhq> The preset & tune options are by far my favorite recent feature.
05:32:17 * Gregor triest to remember why he added bitrate= to his script in the first place...
05:32:44 <pikhq> The crf rate control thing is somewhat recent, I think.
05:33:13 <pikhq> I know my mencoder.conf was written some 3 years ago according to what was recommended practice *then*...
05:33:50 <pikhq> And I only changed it today because 2-pass encoding stopped working with my settings.
05:34:09 <pikhq> And then I found out that I can completely omit 2-pass encoding now. :D
05:38:06 <Gregor> Oh? Doesn't 2-pass still do better even with constant-quality? (Better bitrate at the same quality)
05:39:17 <pikhq> 2-pass is mutually incompatible with that.
05:39:33 <pikhq> Erm. Just incompatible.
05:40:21 <pikhq> All 2-pass does is try and get better quality from the video while meeting the *precise* bitrate you asked for.
05:40:49 <pikhq> Which makes it both look better while shooting for a specific bitrate and makes you actually *get* the bitrate you asked for.
05:41:37 <pikhq> Really handy if you want to try and make the video fit onto, say, a Bluray disc, sucky if you just want it to look good and don't care about file size consistency.
05:51:22 <Gregor> Is Codu frozen upgrading GHC? :P
05:54:32 <Sgeo> Did I make an idiot out of myself, or is does my attempted statistics reference make sense?
05:54:33 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5695862
05:55:28 <Sgeo> s/xor/fuck you/
06:04:11 <Gregor> Y'know what I love? Things that segfault unless you run them under gdb.
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06:16:07 <pikhq> Hmm. There is one noticable artifact here. I can see artifacts from the 4:2:0 chroma subsampling.
06:17:18 <pikhq> But, that's in the source. Can't do anything about that.
06:18:06 <Gregor> Artifacts on DVDs = fail.
06:18:48 <pikhq> Artifacts from the chroma subsampling are actually pretty impossible to avoid if the original video is just right.
06:19:28 <pikhq> That's happening long before any information is actually thrown away by the codec.
06:19:52 <Sgeo> chroma subsampling?
06:20:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: The chrominance on many digital video signals is stored at a lower resolution than the luminance.
06:20:46 <Sgeo> chrominance? Anything like hue?
06:20:48 <Ilari> 36/8 and 42/8 allocated to APNIC. 7 /8s to allocate (+5 to distribute) remain.
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06:20:53 <pikhq> That's the color information.
06:21:21 <Sgeo> luminance is how dark/bright it is?
06:21:50 <pikhq> The reason that's done is that the human eye is more sensitive to luminance than to chrominance.
06:21:56 <Sgeo> Notebook's yelling at me
06:22:04 <pikhq> And it was first done in NTSC...
06:23:33 * Sgeo turns off compy
06:24:29 <pikhq> Anyways, it's somewhat noticable on animation because the hard edges between regions can sometimes result in showing an off color on those edges.
06:25:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:32:10 <pikhq> Huh. It is possible to donate to reduce the US national debt.
06:33:06 <pikhq> Just write a check to: Attn Dept G / Bureau of the Public Debt / P.O. Box 2188 / Parkersburg, WV 26106-2188. (source: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm#DebtFinance)
06:33:43 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...).
06:33:44 <pikhq> Perhaps Republicans should know about that.
06:34:02 -!- augur has joined.
06:39:45 <Gregor> When "drop in a bucket" meets "single molecule of water on Jupiter"
06:44:15 <pikhq> Yeah, but if they're poorer they'll have less influence on politics.
06:49:34 <Gregor> My crf=23 gave me 1700kbps :P
06:49:39 <Gregor> Higher than the 1200 I specified.
06:50:00 <Gregor> (I figured you might want me to inform you that 1700 is in fact greater than 1200)
06:51:03 <pikhq> The resulting bitrate is quite dependent on the source quality. :)
06:51:20 <pikhq> BTW, were you doing that with preset=slow?
06:54:42 <Gregor> Just no options at all :P
06:54:59 <Gregor> And the source is really low-quality, it's a video from my PowerShot X-P
06:55:44 <pikhq> Setting it to preset=slow should improve the quality/bitrate ratio.
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07:05:45 <Gregor> I think Codu's hard disk access got super-slow.
07:05:53 <Gregor> And that's why all the blehness.
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07:36:54 <Gregor> Yup, Codu is definitely self-destructing X-D
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10:00:35 <ais523> wtf is going on on http://esolangs.org/wiki/BytePusher?
10:00:46 <ais523> occasionally you get a page submitted to Wikipedia which is more like an advert or press release
10:00:50 <ais523> I think that's happened there, but ontopic
10:01:07 <ais523> (I'm inclined to just leave it, it's fun to have the page around and it is actually useful)
10:06:12 <GreaseMonkey> btw it's quite easy to make a compliant VM for
10:10:36 <GreaseMonkey> seems doable, have a sub table and a carry table
10:11:03 <GreaseMonkey> the carry table having $00 on no carry and $FF on carry
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11:23:51 <ais523> hmm, amusing changelog entry (Ubuntu bumping the version of Wine): "Many more applications work, especially those from companies named after particularly cold weather events"
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12:29:19 <cheater> ais523: what does that mean?
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12:59:51 <oerjan> <Gregor> I think Codu's hard disk access got super-slow.
13:05:40 <oerjan> <pikhq> Huh. It is possible to donate to reduce the US national debt.
13:07:00 <oerjan> i vaguely recall a few years ago there was some relatively rich guy in norway who had tried to pay extra taxes. he wasn't allowed to.
13:18:49 <oerjan> <cheater> ais523: what does that mean?
13:19:20 <oerjan> i second that question.
13:20:41 * oerjan suddenly realizes he hasn't seen google screw up his browser back history again in a while
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15:34:09 <Gregor> Hey now, the disk seems to have restored itself!
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15:37:59 <Gregor> Never mind, I forgot conv=fdatasync X-P
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15:38:13 <Gregor> Shockingly, the in-memory disk cache is fast.
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16:07:34 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoît Mandelbrot (logs: http://is.gd/g4uID).
16:07:37 <elliott> topic spacing entirely deliberate
16:08:04 <elliott> 02:00:35 <ais523> wtf is going on on http://esolangs.org/wiki/BytePusher?
16:08:04 <elliott> 02:00:46 <ais523> occasionally you get a page submitted to Wikipedia which is more like an advert or press release
16:08:04 <elliott> 02:00:50 <ais523> I think that's happened there, but ontopic
16:08:04 <elliott> 02:01:07 <ais523> (I'm inclined to just leave it, it's fun to have the page around and it is actually useful)
16:08:09 <elliott> it's just evolved around one editor, pretty much
16:09:11 <Gregor> Unlike Wikipedia, that's OK on esolangs :P
16:09:22 <elliott> and bytepusher is actually fun
16:09:50 <Gregor> That being said, it doesn't seem all that esoteric X-P
16:10:00 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, it's an OISC.
16:10:15 <elliott> Gregor: In fact, it's just MOV + JMP (unconditional).
16:10:25 <Gregor> I should read more before saying things.
16:10:28 <elliott> So... pretty esoteric OISC there.
16:10:32 <elliott> No conditionals in the actual instruction.
16:11:00 <elliott> Gregor: Although I have to say that my ripoff is TOTALLY more awesome.
16:11:06 <elliott> (I want to base it on a one-operand OISC.)
16:11:12 <Sgeo> "The HTTP protocol is connectionless and stateless"
16:11:13 <elliott> Because one-operand OISCs are awesome.
16:11:22 <elliott> Especially as program can just be written as lists of addresses.
16:11:30 <Vorpal> elliott, hm you are interested in formal proving and such right? I have a question about such a software that I heard about
16:11:40 <Vorpal> (basically, if it is any good at all)
16:12:16 <Vorpal> elliott, frama-c, looked in aptitude, seems to use coq internally, used to prove stuff about C code
16:12:33 <Vorpal> elliott, basically I wonder if it is worth investigating it any further
16:12:52 <elliott> I know nothing about it, but it has a Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frama-C that seems to imply it is great.
16:13:03 <elliott> Vorpal: it uses Coq or others internally, i tseems
16:13:08 <elliott> also their website is cool: http://frama-c.com/
16:13:15 <elliott> alan kay quote and odd juxtaposition of portrait with code
16:13:27 <elliott> Vorpal: i'd say definitely worth investigating further.
16:13:32 <Vorpal> elliott, heh, both ocaml and coq are pulled in when I select it in aptitude.
16:13:46 <elliott> however i know nothing of the practical software provers because they're for grubby bad languages that you can't prove anything about really ;)
16:14:05 <elliott> you should write your software in Coq, prove things about it in Coq, and then extract it to O'Caml!
16:14:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I just hope it isn't yet another splint (good in theory, awful in practise)
16:14:33 <elliott> Vorpal: it looks simultaneously more practical and more theoretical.
16:14:51 <elliott> slicing: this plugin enables to slice a program (program slicing). It enables to generate a smaller new C program which preserves some given properties[2].
16:14:55 <elliott> Vorpal: ^ if that actually works, so cool.
16:14:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well, a quick tests seems to indicates it treat any doxygen comments as parse errors
16:15:01 <Sgeo> "There is a big difference between GET and POST"
16:15:08 <elliott> Sgeo: why are you quoting this?
16:15:09 <Sgeo> "One is secure-er"
16:15:24 <elliott> but that lecturer sounds like a moron
16:15:27 <Vorpal> which is a bit of a pain, but nothing you can't work around
16:15:38 <elliott> saying one is more secure than the other
16:15:44 <elliott> Vorpal: well they tend to be a bit anal.
16:16:06 <Sgeo> Well, actually, in a sense, since having, say, a session ID in a URL is a bad idea...
16:16:09 <elliott> Vorpal: probably it only recognises /* with a spaec after it
16:16:10 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah, I just have to strip those /*@{*/ comments that are used to group stuff in doxygen out
16:16:18 <Vorpal> elliott, since that is what it is erroring on
16:16:23 <elliott> Sgeo: it's still a terrible way to introduce them and gives a bad first impression and bullshit and-- walk out
16:16:30 <elliott> why are you wasting your time?
16:16:33 <Vorpal> used for stuff like documenting a group of defines or whatever
16:16:41 <Sgeo> Because I need this class for this track
16:16:59 <elliott> doesn't mean you have to listen to idiocy
16:17:01 <Sgeo> She's glossing over it quickly, and wants to get to CGI
16:17:07 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that is where you put session ids
16:17:23 <Gregor> Must ... resist ... urge ... to make ... JavaScript+Canvas ... BytePusher ...
16:17:36 <elliott> Sgeo: you're not going to learn anything, so just leave.
16:17:40 <elliott> do something more productive.
16:18:07 <elliott> Gregor: NONONO implement mine, it's based on a one-operand OISC you see.
16:18:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, your basic issue is that you are exploring the coding phase space breadth-first, not depth-first
16:18:27 <Vorpal> same goes for elliott really
16:18:36 <elliott> That was beyond meaningless.
16:18:48 <Gregor> It is totally meaningful and applicable.
16:18:57 <elliott> Gregor: Well, okay, it was squarely in meaningless.
16:18:59 <Gregor> BUT I CAN'T STOP *sobs*
16:19:21 <Vorpal> well... it is a bit hard to express the idea to elliott it seems
16:19:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I AM NOT IN DENIAL SHUT UP
16:19:32 <elliott> Gregor: Have you ever realised that Javascript sucks?
16:19:33 <Sgeo> Being in here is interesting enough
16:19:37 <elliott> [Gregor jumps off a building]
16:19:45 <elliott> He realised that his life has no meaning.
16:19:48 <Gregor> elliott: JavaScript is AWESOME. -ly terrible. -ly awesome.
16:20:28 <Vorpal> elliott, java or javascript, which is worst in your opinion
16:20:46 <elliott> Vorpal: I dearly hope I never have to answer that question.
16:21:08 <Sgeo> Javascript isn't that bad. It has anonymous functions.
16:21:11 <elliott> Well, at least Eich stuck as much of Scheme into JavaScript as he could.
16:21:18 <Vorpal> elliott, well obviously both are quite bad.
16:21:18 <elliott> Java isn't FUCKING INSANE HOLY SHIT.
16:21:30 <elliott> Java is just bad. You know, you can deal with that.
16:21:45 <Sgeo> Javascript's WORSE in elliott's opinion?
16:21:50 <elliott> Gregor is just on drugs. Permanently. Which is why he loves JavaScript.
16:21:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Spoken like somebody who has never seen JavaScript's object model. or scoping
16:22:18 <Gregor> The only drugs I'm on are JAVASCRIPT! Which is admittedly a pretty potent drug.
16:22:34 <Sgeo> I've done stuff with YouOS before!
16:22:42 <Gregor> And I say that as a person who's written nomath.js :P
16:22:57 <Gregor> elliott: Hey! I was that camel!
16:22:57 <elliott> Moral: Don't tell people about the terrible things you've done, Sgeo.
16:23:11 <elliott> Gregor: YOU WERE ASKING FOR IT
16:23:23 <elliott> Gregor: You were singing "My Humps"
16:23:28 <Vorpal> elliott, btw didn't you brag about 800 kB/s down recently?
16:23:36 <elliott> I said that at least I got it.
16:23:45 <elliott> And then mocked myself with <Scandinavia>.
16:24:10 <Vorpal> elliott, today I got updates at about 6 MB/s. Since this was over 802.11g that is pretty good
16:24:16 * Gregor watches his wonderful unreliable 100KB/s
16:24:52 <Vorpal> elliott, whatever the unit aptitude reports :P
16:25:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Fuck you, you unholy piece of shit, with your BANDWIDTH
16:25:24 <elliott> You probably contracted out to Satan
16:25:32 <Vorpal> elliott, sadly that only happens at university when you are there very early or very late. Otherwise the wlan is just slow.
16:25:42 <elliott> Why not just camp out there
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16:25:59 <Vorpal> elliott, because I can't even get any connection that lasts more than a few seconds around noon?
16:26:22 <Vorpal> elliott, and even then it is 1 MB/s usually
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16:26:45 <Vorpal> elliott, well. I don't think is allowed, also no beds
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16:27:14 <Gregor> What sort of university disallows being there at night ...
16:27:23 <Vorpal> Gregor, "sleeping there at night"
16:27:32 <Gregor> People sleep in LWSN during the day :P
16:28:28 <Sgeo> How does localtime know whether or not it's in scalar context?!
16:28:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Uhh, everything can do stuff like that IIRC
16:28:52 <Vorpal> anyway their wlan is only good in some spots. I mean, I sat at more or less the optimum place when I got 6 MiB/s
16:29:04 <Sgeo> elliott, how do I make my own function that does stuff like that?
16:29:19 <Vorpal> clear path to antenna, but not to close to it
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16:29:38 <elliott> Gregor: Gah, I am determined to run random binary files in putebysh to find one that does stuff.
16:29:52 <elliott> pycon_2010_tutorial.pdf is TRIPPY
16:31:07 * Vorpal prods frama-c. Interesting, but so far nothing useful out of it. And half the options seem to be cryptic and well, there might be documentation for them somewhere, but I have no clue where that somewhere is
16:31:16 <elliott> ksplice-uptrack.deb flashes screen yellow but then nothing
16:31:40 <Vorpal> elliott, why should it flash screen
16:32:04 <elliott> Gregor: pldi275-richards.pdf does nothing interesting; please rectify this
16:32:08 <elliott> Vorpal: tl;dr running random executables
16:32:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I was trying to think of how bytepusher (esolang iirc) was related to ksplice
16:32:52 <elliott> Vorpal: it's an OISC-based computer
16:33:01 <elliott> oh, the yellow flash thing *may* be part of the implementation
16:33:03 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, now port linux to it, then ksplice
16:33:04 <elliott> hey /dev/urandom works as a program
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16:33:14 <Vorpal> elliott, how is that surprising?
16:33:15 <elliott> although it takes a while to get enough data to do something
16:33:23 <elliott> it puts random shit on the screen and buzzes :)
16:33:25 <Vorpal> elliott, /dev/urandom is quite fast.
16:33:33 <elliott> if the buzzing is in ta fixed memory location though i guess that's not too surprising
16:33:35 <Vorpal> it is /dev/random that is slow
16:33:36 <elliott> Vorpal: but, like, does things
16:34:45 <elliott> debian-testing-i386-netinst.iso is the shit
16:34:50 <elliott> even though it just sits there
16:35:49 <elliott> $ sudo ./putebysh /dev/mem
16:36:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I hope you run a recent kernel
16:36:21 <elliott> Vorpal: uh, ubuntu-recent.
16:36:22 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, does it modify the file?
16:36:44 <elliott> i haven't even read the source so maybe it edits it, but i doubt it :P
16:37:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I suspect you won't crash then. The program will get an error trying to read anything except a few pages such as BIOS stuff and PCI config space
16:37:24 <Vorpal> elliott, but hm, some of that could be sensitive to incorrect reads
16:37:26 <elliott> if reading a file could crash your system i'd be worried.
16:37:59 <Sgeo> UNIX permissions are a WTF
16:38:10 <Vorpal> elliott, ITYM "if reading memory mapped registers that are only supposed to be written could fuck up said hardware, I wouldn't be surprised at all"
16:38:20 <Sgeo> If you don't have +x access on a directory, you can't read ANY files in that directory?
16:38:27 <elliott> Vorpal: then they shouldn't be exposed as a file :p
16:38:33 <Sgeo> Even given a known name?
16:38:36 <Vorpal> elliott, well, /dev/mem is your memory
16:38:37 <Sgeo> Or is that an Apache thing?
16:38:45 <Vorpal> elliott, IMO that file shouldn't exist
16:39:00 <elliott> Vorpal: bet plan 9 gets it right >:D
16:39:14 <Vorpal> elliott, there should be some other way for graphics drivers and such to safely map in the video memory, but that would be it
16:39:32 <Vorpal> as for reading PCI config space, the kernel should expose an API for that
16:39:58 <Vorpal> not sure about the bios stuff. It would make dosemu and such useless
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16:45:26 <Sgeo> I am beginning to hate everyone in this class
16:46:31 <elliott> # xlogout - logs user out of its X session
16:46:34 <elliott> # Linux specific since uses /proc
16:46:41 <elliott> least reassuring start to a broken shell script ever
16:47:44 <Sgeo> "I've never mastered CGI.pm... I'd rather do the HTML _in_ HTML"
16:48:00 <elliott> Sgeo: CGI.pm has a bunch of functions to generate HTML markup
16:48:01 <elliott> their use is questionable.
16:48:06 <elliott> although the way stated is stupid.
16:48:46 <ais523_> elliott: CGI.pm is effectively HTML coded in sexps rather than SGML
16:49:03 <elliott> right, except the sexps are insane.
16:49:15 <Sgeo> So she wasn't being totally batshit insane
16:51:06 <Vorpal> err, why sexps? I mean if it was lisp that would have been a reasonable choice of representation
16:51:12 <Vorpal> but for a perl program, err
16:51:34 <elliott> ais523_: please explain to Vorpal...
16:51:38 <ais523_> it's not syntactically sexps
16:52:26 <ais523_> it looks like this: html(head(title("The Hello World Web Page")).body(p("Hello, world!")))
16:52:43 <Vorpal> elliott, any opinions on eiffel (the programming language)?
16:53:11 <elliott> ouch? it's just html without </>
16:53:13 <Sgeo> I tried Eiffel once
16:53:13 <Vorpal> ais523_, sexps with first parameter before the parenthesis? :D
16:53:26 <ais523_> Vorpal: it's still a sexp, effectively
16:53:34 <elliott> Vorpal: bertrand meyer is excellent. eiffel is basically his perfect design. but-
16:53:34 <ais523_> I don't see why the actual syntax matters
16:53:35 <Vorpal> (not parameter, element)
16:53:56 <ais523_> syntax is the least important part of a programming language
16:53:59 <elliott> Vorpal: i refuse to answer such an open-ended, useless question
16:54:09 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
16:54:14 <Vorpal> ais523_, what about haskell then (if you are referring to the indention stuff)
16:54:19 <ais523_> elliott: I knew that was going to be `addquoted
16:54:42 <elliott> Vorpal: ask a better question, get a better answer
16:54:45 <ais523_> Vorpal: it was more a reference to flamewars about Python indentation-sensitivity than actual language design
16:54:56 <ais523_> Haskell doesn't inspire those levels of fury on both sides
16:55:27 <Sgeo> Python's indentation sensitivity got me in a good habit of being anal about indentation
16:56:17 <Sgeo> Although, I once elected to leave a if(1) in rather than remove it and closing brace and unindent
16:57:28 <Sgeo> It used to have a real condition in there
16:57:38 <Sgeo> Changed it to not check for anyting
16:57:48 <Sgeo> But was too lazy to deal with indentation and the closing brace
16:57:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I think addquote failed
16:58:05 <Vorpal> elliott, but better check first
16:58:07 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
16:58:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is causing this
16:59:06 <elliott> OH GOD WITHOUT OURS GEOS WHAT WILL HAPPEN
16:59:28 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, no issue. We still have fungot
16:59:28 <fungot> Vorpal: what? orwell went down?) a system similar in spirit to scheme, where the actual srfi-9 compatible define-record-type is defined appropriately, then "
16:59:48 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:59:51 <Vorpal> elliott, it can generate a near infinite number of different quotes
17:00:02 <Sgeo> Without out Geos? Our Sgeos?
17:00:11 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:00:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, <elliott> *EGOSS
17:00:16 <ais523_> I wonder if something is wrong with Gregor's server? his bots are still running, but sometimes take ages to respond for no apparent reason
17:00:26 <Vorpal> elliott, check before readding again
17:00:54 <HackEgo> 126|<Warrigal> Ah, vulva. <Warrigal> What is that, anyway?
17:01:44 <ais523_> I'm trying to remember the most recently added quote number
17:02:24 <Vorpal> <ais523_> I wonder if something is wrong with Gregor's server? his bots are still running, but sometimes take ages to respond for no apparent reason <-- my guess is that the xen host is badly managed, too many vms on the server
17:02:35 <Vorpal> if it is a cheap one this is almost certainly the case
17:02:44 <Sgeo> I should redo the thingy I made once
17:02:45 <HackEgo> 233|<Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
17:02:50 <Sgeo> Wait, all that's on the dead HD
17:03:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, didn't you rescue that?
17:03:09 <Sgeo> Vorpal, not uet
17:03:11 <HackEgo> 234|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
17:03:17 <Sgeo> Still need that external mount
17:03:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, fucking damn idiot
17:03:20 <HackEgo> 235|<yorick> I could also send my ferrari in for repair
17:03:26 <HackEgo> 236|<Vorpal> ais523, what is "MS Publisher"? <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you don't want to know. <ais523> Vorpal: be glad that you don't know the answer <alise> Vorpal: "horrible"
17:03:30 <HackEgo> 237|<alise> i like to imagine their mangled limbs.
17:03:37 <HackEgo> 238|<calamari> I got a game in my cereal box and I want to run it lol
17:03:37 <Vorpal> ais523_, suggestion: binary search
17:03:38 <ais523_> it's getting pretty recent now
17:03:42 <Sgeo> Vorpal, you talk to my dad to convince him of the urgency
17:03:44 <Vorpal> ais523_, instead of linear search
17:03:44 <ais523_> meh, it's fun to read the quotes
17:03:49 <HackEgo> 239|<catseye> i like the feeling of freedom you get driving a bus
17:03:54 <HackEgo> 240|<oklopol> comex: what? <oklopol> *vorpal <oklopol> comex: hi, tab-complete completed c to comex instead of Vorpal, dunno why
17:03:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you need to do that yourself
17:03:59 <HackEgo> 241|<fungot> Vorpal: you can't plant spiders, duh!
17:04:04 <HackEgo> 242|<fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
17:04:11 <HackEgo> 243|<fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
17:04:15 <HackEgo> 244|<zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
17:04:17 <Vorpal> ais523_, stop turning into elliott!
17:04:20 <ais523_> who's been adding all these quotes recently?
17:04:23 <HackEgo> 245|<fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task.
17:04:40 <ais523_> elliott: try that `addquote again?
17:04:48 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
17:04:50 <Sgeo> His response will be along the lines of "The data can't degrade. Who told you that it can? Random people on the Internet? You believe everything you read on the Internet?"
17:04:50 <HackEgo> 246|<ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
17:05:34 <ais523_> to be fair, a dead HD will not degrade very fast if you disconnect it from everything, don't power it on, and in the special case of a crashed head, don't move it around much
17:06:54 <ais523_> I /have/ had an HD degrade over me, but it was over a period of years
17:07:04 <ais523_> and was still mostly working, it had just accumulated enough bitflips that it failed to boot Windows
17:07:19 <ais523_> (come to think of it, that only needs one bitflip, if it's in the right location)
17:07:26 <elliott> <Vorpal> <ais523_> I wonder if something is wrong with Gregor's server? his bots are still running, but sometimes take ages to respond for no apparent reason <-- my guess is that the xen host is badly managed, too many vms on the server
17:07:45 <elliott> they have a blog detailing all the sysadmin stuff
17:08:11 <elliott> Vorpal: apparently it's actually a bug in the bot code
17:08:22 <Sgeo> So if it waits a few more weeks, I'm not screwed?
17:08:30 <ais523_> Sgeo: as long as it's powered off, probably not
17:08:36 <elliott> <Sgeo> His response will be along the lines of "The data can't degrade. Who told you that it can? Random people on the Internet? You believe everything you read on the Internet?"
17:08:38 <ais523_> do you not have backups, btw?
17:08:44 <elliott> You believe everything your father says?
17:09:07 <ais523_> actually, I find that nowadays I'm rarely doing anything important enough to need backing up :(
17:09:10 <elliott> Frankly, everything you have said that he has said has been idiotic bullshit from someone who clearly thinks their expanse of knowledge is far more vast than it actually is.
17:09:16 <elliott> ais523_: that's basically why i don't back up :D
17:09:17 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:09:33 <elliott> i wiped my ~/Code to transfer over to the new install when clean-installing Ubuntu 10.10
17:09:38 <ais523_> perhaps someday I should actually back everything up in a single location
17:09:52 <ais523_> rather than memorising individually where each different actually important thing is backed up
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17:14:16 <Sgeo> Bye for now all
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17:35:00 <Gregor> Zuu: I KNOW YOUR REAL HOSTNAME
17:35:03 <Gregor> Your masking cannot fool me!
17:36:30 * Zuu cuddles Gregor ^^
17:49:59 <elliott> I think Zuu is just a secret paedophile hoping he'll come across someone underage.
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17:52:59 <Zuu> You're just envious because you arent underage :P
17:53:10 -!- tombom has joined.
17:59:34 <Gregor> I'm not! I can drink and fuck and EVERYTHING!
17:59:45 <elliott> Zuu: I am sort of entirely underage.
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18:00:20 <elliott> Although probably less so over here than wherever you are.
18:00:44 <Gregor> There are no legal age limits there.
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18:07:08 * Zuu cuddles elliott then :)
18:07:22 <elliott> pretty sure that's technically illegal over here!
18:07:34 <Zuu> Cuddling is illegal?
18:09:17 <Zuu> Anyways, my cuddles are more like, cuddling a pet cuddles, than the kind of cuddling you do in bed :)
18:09:36 <elliott> Zuu: I don't think the UK government cares much.
18:09:52 <elliott> YOU COMPOSED ASCII BYTES THAT DESCRIBED TOUCHING A MINOR OMG JAILTIME
18:10:41 <Zuu> To be frank, i couldnt care less what the UK government cares about
18:12:56 * Zuu will continue cuddling people of any age as he pleases, regardless of how people decide to misunderstand it :)
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18:13:41 <Zuu> if you dont like it, elliott, you're free to use your ignore feature ;)
18:13:56 <elliott> Zuu: err, i wasn't being serious...
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18:14:48 <elliott> Gregor: so is Opus 13 permanently two-movemented now?
18:15:15 <elliott> Gregor: but now "in Three" is not ... amusing?
18:16:16 <Gregor> But anyway, I've decided I desperately need to write something NOT in a time signature which is a multiple of three.
18:19:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: apparently it's actually a bug in the bot code <-- well, it seems like it would be in the interest of everyone that it got debugged then, since it is raping his server
18:19:29 <elliott> Gregor: Also, someone has to say 4/4 now so that you can shoot them.
18:19:39 <Gregor> 4/4 would be fine at this point.
18:19:42 <Gregor> Nothing wrong with 4/4.
18:19:47 <Vorpal> elliott, err, well it was slooow above, and the webview of the hg repo timed out
18:19:51 <Gregor> For me, 4/4 would be an unusual turn from the norm :P
18:20:07 <Gregor> Vorpal: No, it's a disk access issue.
18:20:17 <Gregor> Vorpal: prgmr's disk is performing at ~200KB/s
18:20:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm, caused by?
18:20:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, ouch. How sucky
18:20:28 <Gregor> (Or some other client or who knows what)
18:20:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, what does "4/4" refer to in this context btw?
18:20:42 <Gregor> Vorpal: Time signature.
18:20:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, filed a ticket I hope?
18:21:18 <Gregor> So you just hate music then.
18:22:10 <Gregor> Incidentally, the denominator has to be a solution to 2^n where n is an integer for a time signature to be definable.
18:22:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, no, I just like things that looks like division by zero
18:22:58 <elliott> Gregor: Couldn't you just say "it has to be a power of two"?
18:23:03 <elliott> And avoid saying it... really... really stupidly?
18:23:27 <elliott> I just read Gregor's line weirdly.
18:23:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean it would have to be a solution to log_2 (power of two) I think
18:23:45 <Vorpal> unless I got that backwards
18:24:20 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, Gregor should have expressed it in terms of logarithms yes
18:24:51 <elliott> Gregor: Write something in free time. And proper free time, not silly "I'm going to pretend that you can't tell what time signature this is written in" time.
18:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, midi doesn't inherently have time signatures right?
18:25:28 <elliott> Gregor: WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST FREE TIME
18:25:47 <Gregor> Vorpal: SMF files do, MIDI signaling doesn't.
18:26:19 <Gregor> Anyway, my last four works have been six (when not seven), twelve (when not four), three (when not two) and three (when not four).
18:26:31 <Gregor> I need some non-multiple-of-three time signatures.
18:26:46 <Vorpal> elliott, not a multiple of 3 ;P
18:26:59 <Gregor> 4/4, for me, would be new and unusual!
18:27:08 <elliott> Gregor: WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST FREE TIME
18:27:16 <Gregor> elliott: The fact that it's a lie.
18:27:26 <elliott> Gregor: In most cases, sure...
18:27:35 <elliott> Gregor: There are works in true free time.
18:27:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp, real free time probably
18:27:57 <Gregor> WE CAN NEVER TRULY BE FREE
18:28:07 <Vorpal> Gregor, with a hw random generator?
18:28:08 <elliott> Gregor: I don't see what's a lie about free time.
18:28:22 <elliott> Well... I suppose you could say that it changes time signature constantly instead, but that's beyond ridiculous.
18:29:38 <elliott> Gregor: That's totally a huge technicality though, if no time signature is maintained long enough for it to express its structure in any way at all..
18:30:13 * Vorpal has an urge to formally prove cfunge...
18:30:45 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah unlikely, it needs to be written with formal proving in mind for it to be feasible really
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18:36:43 <elliott> Gregor: Okay then, an actually irrational timesignature.
18:36:51 <elliott> "at least one such piece with a truly irrational signature already exists: one of Conlon Nancarrow's "Studies for Player Piano" contains a canon where one part is augmented in the ratio sqrt(42):1"
18:49:00 <Zuu> What is all this 'time' you guys are talking about?
18:51:33 <elliott> Zuu: Uhh, time signatures?
18:52:02 <Zuu> Time signatures?
18:52:24 <cpressey> they're signatures, like on your checks, but in the fabric of time
18:52:35 <olsner> elliott: have you released the kitten installation iso yet?
18:52:48 <elliott> Zuu: ...do you listen to music?
18:53:23 <Zuu> ok, so time signatures on samples of music
18:53:35 * Zuu 's curiosity has been fed
18:54:06 <olsner> oh, that kind of time signature! so a PRNG would be n/n in its cycle length or something like that?
18:54:37 <elliott> olsner: ok, *you're* definitely joking surely
18:55:34 <Zuu> I just curious what you guys were talking about... not much joking in that
18:55:35 <olsner> elliott: nope, not so much... maybe I'm misunderstanding something, and I'm definitely missing out on some definitions
18:55:48 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature
18:55:50 <elliott> how does anyone not know this?
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18:57:23 <Vorpal> elliott, from frama-c help output:
18:57:25 <Vorpal> -no-type undocumented but disable some features
18:58:00 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, well, I just find it funny that something is in effect documented as being undocumented
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19:10:42 <elliott> Sometimes it is convenient to be able to have variable variable names. That is, a variable name which can be set and used dynamically. A normal variable is set with a statement such as: ...
19:10:44 <elliott> A variable variable takes the value of a variable and treats that as the name of a variable. In the above example, hello, can be used as the name of a variable by using two dollar signs. i.e. ...
19:10:58 <elliott> <Vikings> Variable, variable, variable, variable, ...
19:14:24 <Vorpal> elliott, this is C pointers if you decide that the name of variables are their memory addresses
19:15:06 <elliott> PHP programmers: "I'm a 3 $ programmer."
19:15:12 <elliott> quintopia: not when it's based on variable names...
19:15:53 <quintopia> but the $ syntax is terrible for it
19:16:01 <quintopia> there should be a dedicated indirection character
19:16:01 * elliott makes mental note to never let quintopia anything
19:16:03 <Vorpal> elliott, it is. But your address space is now not memory locations. It is instead the variable name phase space
19:16:14 <elliott> Vorpal: i was responding to quintopia :p
19:16:40 <Vorpal> elliott, and I was pointing out that by some quite reasonable definitions they *are* pointers. Just not the C type of pointers
19:16:51 <quintopia> being a fan of esoterics, you'd have to expect i'd love strange things like that.
19:17:05 <Vorpal> elliott, useful in bash though
19:17:06 <elliott> quintopia: most of us can sieve out the good parts of an esoteric mind from the silly parts when working on non-esoteric stuff.
19:17:21 <Vorpal> elliott, you know, for the "horrible return trick"
19:17:28 <elliott> Vorpal: NO NO NO NONOIODNONONONONON
19:17:46 <Vorpal> elliott, hey, nothing wrong with some fun hacks
19:18:03 <Vorpal> elliott, of course you shouldn't use that in something you intend to maintain
19:18:04 <Gregor> I once had a language where variables could be indirected like ${$foo}
19:18:05 <elliott> bring envbot in here for the lulz
19:18:18 <elliott> pretty sure ${$foo.'bar'} is valid
19:18:21 <elliott> if not, well, just one thing away
19:18:30 <elliott> in fact, ${"abc$foo"} *may* even be valid
19:19:00 <quintopia> elliot: they are not all that silly when used implemented and used correctly. i mean, you don't think its silly to allow a user to specify a filename string at which you save a file, do you? but that's the same damn thing.
19:21:06 <quintopia> Vorpal: my first major programming platform was the TI-89, where variables and files are indistinguishable, and indirection was the actual literal way to save a file at a user specified location
19:21:49 <quintopia> (i should say "global variables" and files are indistinguishable, sincee local variables didn't get saved to ram)
19:23:31 <Vorpal> quintopia, bah, you were lucky, on TI-83+ we didn't even have local variables. Nor files. At most the assembler programmers had "program variables", the TI-BAISC programmers just had the global variables.
19:23:50 <quintopia> Vorpal: i started on the TI-82. i know your pain.
19:24:20 <Vorpal> quintopia, well I replaced the batteries in my TI-83+ twice. TI-89 batteries doesn't last nearly as long
19:24:38 <Vorpal> quintopia, also, TI-83+ is not quite as bad as TI-82
19:25:27 <quintopia> the low #'d TIs didn't even have lowercase alphabet. the only way to display strings with lowercase letters was by repeatedly displaying system function names in the right places until what was left was what you wanted
19:25:58 <elliott> was that possible for all words?
19:25:58 <quintopia> I recall a version of Mastermind, that display Mastermind that way. It started with "Histogram" (a built-in) to get the "st"
19:26:11 <Gregor> I think I just vomited up some blood.
19:26:19 <elliott> Gregor is disgusted with free time.
19:26:38 <Vorpal> quintopia, TI-83+ does, but you can't access it normally. You either need to use some asm stuff, or you need to use a language pack and use the "enter-non-English-letter-menu" where you can enter lower case variants of all
19:26:49 <Vorpal> elliott, hmmm would be nice with a formally verified libc
19:27:30 <quintopia> Vorpal: yeah, that's basically the same thing. it has them, but not available through normal means.
19:28:02 <Vorpal> quintopia, you don't need to go through those built in names though
19:28:12 <Vorpal> just do the magic asm, then pressing alpha twice gets you lower case
19:29:01 <Vorpal> quintopia, or write the program in that awful win3.1-ish application on the computer, and then download it
19:29:02 <quintopia> wonder if anyone made a magic asm for 82
19:29:21 * Vorpal looks around for his black link cable
19:29:39 <Vorpal> well black-link I believe the name is actually
19:29:40 <quintopia> my 89 is dead and has been for a very long time.
19:29:46 <Vorpal> they called it that... because it is black
19:29:57 <Vorpal> quintopia, my TI-83+ is still alive and kicking
19:30:18 <quintopia> as well as the usb one...clear-link lol?
19:30:31 <Vorpal> quintopia, there was a third one iirc
19:30:39 <Vorpal> and I don't have the usb one
19:30:46 <Vorpal> quintopia, which one was gray-link?
19:31:01 <quintopia> i got the usb one as a prize from a coding contest TI held, along with a red cover
19:31:25 <Vorpal> quintopia, yeah but what connector...
19:31:53 <Vorpal> quintopia, that is black-link?
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19:40:55 <cpressey> i can mention something exists but that hardly counts as documentation
19:41:12 <pikhq> Oh, would you look at that. A California charity that is offering to pay drug addicts to be sterilised.
19:41:25 <pikhq> Did someone say "lack of informed consent"?
19:42:30 <quintopia> if they're not high *at the time*, then it can be informed consent, right?
19:42:59 <elliott> pikhq: "founded and formerly known as Children Requiring a Caring Kommunity [sic] or C.R.A.C.K."
19:43:01 <quintopia> also, some sterilization procedures are reversible, so if they clean themselves up, they have a way out
19:43:08 <elliott> quintopia: these ones aren't.
19:43:17 <elliott> pikhq: they stop random people in the street asking them if they're addicts, suppsoedly
19:43:30 <elliott> tl;dr batshit insane people.
19:43:49 <pikhq> elliott: Project Prevention, and they're running around in the UK *right now*.
19:44:00 <elliott> pikhq: "founded and formerly known as Children Requiring a Caring Kommunity [sic] or C.R.A.C.K."
19:44:39 <elliott> pikhq: the founder is a drug addict with a child iirc
19:44:47 <elliott> (and the child (20 now) supports the organisation... go figure)
19:45:02 <elliott> "For her, doing nothing was not an option after her own firsthand experience raising four substance-exposed children."
19:45:02 <pikhq> quintopia: Someone who is heavily addicted to a drug like that is suffering from a form of mental illness. They cannot reasonably be said to be making informed decisions when they are being *handed drug money* in exchange for something.
19:45:22 <pikhq> "Hey, I'll give you some crack if you let me take out your kidney." "Okay!"
19:45:42 <elliott> "I am sorry to inform you that I relapsed shortly after I graduated on May 1st. I'm back in treatment and doing very well. I apologize for not keeping in touch for I feel as though we've known one another in a different space and time. You are truly an inspiration to me, and I feel that your love knows no boundaries. Sandra, Los Angeles"
19:45:47 <elliott> that's written to project prevention by someone sterilised by them
19:46:20 <elliott> yeah, it's just ... no fuck that.
19:47:01 <pikhq> It's also a bit of a problem, IMO, to offer to pay people in general to be sterilised. This essentially sets up a scenario wherein only those who don't want for money or who are absolutely appaled by the prospect of sterilisation can reproduce.
19:47:11 <pikhq> Which... Is not exactly healthy for society.
19:47:19 <quintopia> pikhq: nor can they be making informed decisions when they get pregnant having sex for drugs. of two possibilities violating informed consent, which has the better outcome?
19:47:55 <elliott> i don't really see much of a point in getting sterilised
19:48:26 <pikhq> quintopia: The one where we stop treating drug addiction as some horrible criminal scourage but as a mental health issue?\
19:48:39 <elliott> i wonder if they do it to stoners too
19:48:55 <Gregor> <pikhq> Oh, would you look at that. A California charity that is offering to pay drug addicts to be sterilised.
19:49:00 <Gregor> Hahaha this is legal eugenics.
19:49:02 <elliott> "Dude, do you wanna get like, STERILISED, man?"
19:49:04 <Gregor> That makes me smile deep down inside.
19:49:13 <quintopia> even treating it as a mental health issue, how do you get these people to submit to proper treatment?
19:49:32 <quintopia> would it be okay to pay them to get rehabbed?
19:49:48 <elliott> quintopia: are you attempting a *reverse slippery slope* argument?
19:49:56 <elliott> "This is okay, so this crazy form of that is okay too."
19:50:17 <quintopia> that was a legitimate probing of pikhq's mindset
19:50:41 <elliott> i have no issue with paying people to go into rehab. well not so much corporations doing it, but.
19:50:42 <pikhq> quintopia: Uh, voluntarily. Most people aren't exactly living from fix to fix because they *want* to be that way.
19:50:47 <elliott> (unless, of course, there is a better solution)
19:51:07 <elliott> pikhq: most of them also don't think they have a mental issue and can quit whenever they want
19:51:25 <elliott> pikhq: do you guys have free rehab in the US?
19:51:30 <pikhq> elliott: HAHAHAH No.
19:51:30 <elliott> LOL STUPID QUESTION OF COURSE YOU DON'T
19:51:33 <pikhq> elliott: That would be communist.
19:51:54 <elliott> Communism: They want to take away your ADDICTION.
19:51:56 <Gregor> I think they do in prisons.
19:52:02 <Gregor> As per usual, you get the best care if you kill somebody.
19:52:04 <elliott> Gregor: How to get free rehab:
19:52:17 <elliott> - TOTALLY USE SOME DRUGS MAN
19:52:38 <elliott> You have to admire the uh, logic.
19:53:03 <quintopia> surely there are some charitable organizations offering free rehab
19:53:10 <pikhq> elliott: Also, the whole mindset here is that drug addicts are *awful people*.
19:53:18 <Gregor> If you want decent healthcare, rehab (if applicable), three square meals a day, and all the other amenities, all you have to do is kill someone in cold blood. If you're lucky, you'll get all of this for life. If you're unlucky, you'll get all of this 'til midnight, but after that you won't need any of it.
19:53:23 <elliott> quintopia: is the rehab any good? is it publicised enough? (almost certainly not for the latter)
19:53:24 <pikhq> elliott: Not victims, *awful, horrible, terrible people*.
19:54:03 <elliott> pikhq: of course legalising drugs would boost the economy and cut addiction right down (since you don't have to "rely" on sleazy dealers), but you guys are too illogical for that
19:54:30 <quintopia> elliott: if it were publicized enough, they'd get more customers than they can afford to treat, which they almost certainly already do
19:54:52 <elliott> quintopia: Why not fund them with taxesOH RIGHT THAT'S COMMUNISM, taxes should go to the military.
19:55:04 <elliott> To defend the US. From Canada.
19:55:14 <quintopia> i'm glad you understand where the line must be drawn
19:55:24 <elliott> They want to EXPORT THEIR MASS-PRODUCED COMMUNISM TO US
19:55:29 <elliott> No, wait, that's China. What?
19:55:40 <elliott> Does a Debian package's description (aptitude/apt-cache show) show what virtual packages it provides?
19:55:49 <elliott> I'm wondering if Debian has one for a "graphical apt frontend". Probably not.
19:55:49 <pikhq> elliott: Just decriminalising it makes addiction rates go way the hell down.
19:55:53 <quintopia> yeah, all joking aside, China actually does suck.
19:56:06 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but it's even better to put sleazy dealers out of business.
19:56:25 <elliott> quintopia: Yeah. North Korea sucks more but they don't actually participate in the rest of the world at all so it's less of a worry.
19:56:31 <elliott> I lol'd at the recent advocacy of democracy.
19:56:54 <elliott> The Communist Party of China: We're all about communism^Wpower^Wdemocratic capitalism!
19:57:07 <pikhq> elliott: There's actually an ideological split in the Communist Party there.
19:57:23 <elliott> The Communist Party is basically three or four parties in one, isn't it...
19:57:29 <pikhq> elliott: What you saw there was the freaks who see that Europe is awesome. :P
19:57:42 <elliott> Europe is... awesome is stretching it.
19:57:42 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I think French and Japanese programmers tend to have the most curious grammars.
19:57:48 <elliott> I don't think anywhere is truly awesome.
19:57:58 <elliott> Vorpal: The German ones are a bit odd too. Although perhaps in other ways.
19:58:07 <elliott> Japanese programmers are cool though.
19:58:23 <elliott> Debian appears not to have packagekit. Sweeeeeeeeeet
19:58:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes German ones too sometimes. I find the French more awkward. Japanese most awkward.
19:58:38 <Vorpal> elliott, Japan in general is insane
19:59:00 <elliott> There are an awful lot of Japanese golfers, methinks.
19:59:04 <Vorpal> elliott, what exactly is packagekit btw?
19:59:20 <elliott> Vorpal: It's, like, a daemon-based fancy-fancy abstraction layer to a metric fuckton of package managers.
19:59:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: Well, they've got many legitimate reasons for being insane.
19:59:32 <elliott> Vorpal: So e.g. you have GUI package managers that work on any supported backend.
19:59:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Fedora uses PackageKit's GNOME interface as its main GUI package manager, iirc.
20:00:02 <elliott> There's even sorta-maybe-works Pacman support.
20:00:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, it handles update notification and the like too.
20:00:28 <elliott> And fancy things, like prompting to run applications after you install them and the like (http://www.packagekit.org/img/gpk-run-application.png)
20:00:31 <pikhq> They went from feudalism to democracy in a generation, democracy to militant empire in a generation, militiant empire to democracy in a generation.
20:00:42 <elliott> And, uh, basically it does a bunch of stuff.
20:00:52 <pikhq> Aaand getting about 700 years of technological development in a few decades.
20:01:15 <elliott> pikhq: I like to think they still used abacuses in the 50s.
20:01:41 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, in the 50s people used abacuses in the west too!
20:01:49 <elliott> Abacuses was a bad example.
20:01:54 <elliott> pikhq: I meant, uh, you know, bamboo and all that.
20:01:57 <elliott> Oh hell, you know what I mean.
20:02:23 <elliott> They did invent tentacle rape way before anyone thinks though! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dream_of_the_Fisherman's_Wife)
20:02:39 <pikhq> elliott: Abacuses are still in (waning) use there.
20:02:49 <Vorpal> elliott, well, slide rule was probably more common than abacuses in the 50s in the west. but yeah they were still in use
20:03:13 <elliott> "back on to the topic of japan" but
20:03:17 <elliott> sjdgg you know what i mean
20:03:23 <pikhq> elliott: Primarily because a proficient abacus user can use an abacus faster than a pocket calculator.
20:03:27 <Gregor> Oh Japan, you so screwy!
20:03:30 <Vorpal> elliott, does the website for coq timeout for you as well?
20:03:31 <elliott> pikhq: For exponentiation?
20:03:43 <elliott> Vorpal: It's ... not the fastest. It may be down.
20:03:48 <elliott> Vorpal: But sometimes it's just ... slow.
20:03:58 <pikhq> elliott: No. But think like a checkout in a small store.
20:04:17 <elliott> pikhq: omg we need to organise a yearly championship
20:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, okay. Another thing from the same second level domain loaded very fast
20:04:34 <elliott> Fastest abacus and calculator users from across the globe compete to work out long sums
20:04:48 <elliott> (Basic pocket calculator, obviously.)
20:05:07 <Gregor> How about we bring in one of these electrical "computers" too.
20:05:09 <quintopia> just for fun, we should include fast mental arithmetickers
20:05:13 <Gregor> And it can do the same calculations.
20:05:16 <Vorpal> elliott, basic pocket calculator? You mean, no command history?
20:05:28 <elliott> Vorpal: No exponentiation.
20:05:41 <elliott> http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00OBwtmiPFPpcA/Pocket-Calculator-YH-H822V-.jpg
20:05:45 <elliott> Maybe slightly more advanced.
20:05:59 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, it's also used educationally, because the visual imagery of arithmetic makes things a bit more apparent.
20:06:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm completely unable to use any calculator these days where I can't do line editing and also see the last few expressions and calculations
20:06:05 <Vorpal> I just find it too awkward
20:06:14 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah yeah we know that you're functionally retarded when using inferior hardware/software
20:06:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:06:41 <Vorpal> elliott, when you used a graphing calculator for years you will end up the same
20:06:58 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't ever plan to use them for extended periods of time really.
20:07:18 <pikhq> I find it very difficult to use any calculator that's not RPN.
20:07:49 <Vorpal> http://coq.inria.fr/: The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading.
20:07:52 <pikhq> Open up dc and have fun.
20:07:55 <elliott> Vorpal: you can install coq-doc
20:08:00 <elliott> maybe in the coq package for you
20:08:03 <elliott> it's in /usr/share/doc somewhere
20:08:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I need the source, for non-ubuntu
20:08:06 <elliott> all the website that matters
20:08:11 <elliott> Vorpal: get it from debian
20:08:18 <Vorpal> elliott, is that last version?
20:08:37 <quintopia> rpn is a pretty cool dude. like dijkstra. dijkstra is so cool. is he still alive?
20:08:43 <Vorpal> elliott, there you are then
20:09:03 -!- augur has joined.
20:09:50 <elliott> Vorpal: http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/c/coq/coq_8.3~rc1+dfsg.orig.tar.gz
20:10:02 <elliott> Vorpal: http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/non-free/c/coq-doc/coq-doc_8.2pl1.orig.tar.gz
20:10:07 <elliott> Vorpal: dunno if the docs are in the above
20:10:14 <Vorpal> elliott, and there was a -theorems package iirc
20:10:16 <elliott> sorry about .de., it's what packages.debian.org linked me to
20:10:21 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, it's built from the coq source package.
20:10:24 <elliott> debian just splits shit up.
20:10:35 <Vorpal> elliott, does it take long to build btw?
20:10:54 <elliott> Vorpal: OCaml was invented for Coq, incidentally
20:11:03 <elliott> dunno if OCaml or just Caml
20:11:09 <elliott> Vorpal: they needed a language to implement Coq in
20:11:19 <Vorpal> elliott, arch packages ocaml, so I don't have to compile that as well
20:11:27 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm just giving trivia
20:12:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm trying to install frama-c on my desktop you see. I did some experiments and it seems to be awesome indeed. One or two issues but ubuntu lucid has a rather old version, and at least one one the issues is documented as fixed in a later version
20:13:49 <Vorpal> Formal proof management system.
20:14:09 <elliott> Vorpal: it'll try and download from the website.
20:14:18 <Vorpal> elliott, no it won't, it isn't aur
20:14:22 <Vorpal> elliott, it is community
20:14:25 <Vorpal> also, why is the installed size 199 MB
20:14:45 <Vorpal> I mean, the source package was just 3 MB or something such
20:15:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm extremely surprised that arch linux has coq
20:15:30 <elliott> although admittedly i wouldn't expect the kind of morons who use arch to appreciate it >:D >_>
20:15:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I wouldn't expect most users to use it indeed. And only reason I use arch is that I find non-rolling-release *painful*
20:16:13 <Vorpal> elliott, on laptops the lack of integration is even more painful
20:16:29 <elliott> Rolling release plus KITTEN AWESOMENESS
20:16:30 <Vorpal> but on desktops, that isn't so much of an issue
20:16:47 <Vorpal> elliott, sure. I'll wait for 1.0 though
20:17:07 <elliott> (Although I'll probably have a major release to be incremented when I change everything.)
20:17:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well, Install CD 1.0
20:17:38 <elliott> 0.1 to start with, 0.5 when you can actually boot a graphical environment but it's unstable, 0.8 when it's rough around the edges but getting there
20:17:44 <elliott> 1 when it's something i'd recommend people install as a main distro
20:18:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, you can keep recommending kitten but until I can actually install it, it isn't a very *useful* recommendation here and now :P
20:18:18 <elliott> I'm contractually obligated.
20:19:27 <Vorpal> err, I just noticed a strange thing on a "not-actually-ultrabay, but same kind of thing for dell"-device
20:19:59 <Vorpal> elliott, it has a mini-usb port on the side of the floppy variant. Going to take out the CD one and look for that as well
20:20:34 <Vorpal> nop, none on the CD-drive
20:21:03 <Vorpal> I'm soo going to attach that and see what happens
20:23:38 <olsner> oh, how annoying, dexter ends with "stay tuned for: Weeds"
20:23:40 <Vorpal> elliott, also it seems to do "detect when floppy is inserted" which is not the usual for floppy devices in my experience
20:23:46 <olsner> but Weeds hasn't been released yet :/
20:24:56 <elliott> Gregor: By the way, Opus 13 is truly excellent, although given my... erratic musical tastes you might not consider that a complement.
20:25:04 <olsner> Vorpal: I think floppy drives have detected floppy insertion for ages, like since the 80s
20:25:16 <Gregor> elliott: Uhhh, thanks maybe?
20:25:19 <olsner> but I'm not quite sure if it's usually connected to anything
20:25:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder why they did mini-usb though since it has one of those "this device should not be operated outside a computer, and is senstive to pressure, oh and to ESD as well"-stickers
20:25:39 <elliott> Gregor: The intrepidacity is clear!
20:32:19 <Vorpal> hm I seem to be reaching a state of having lots of semi-useless spare parts, but only spare weird parts, such as floppy drives, dvd-readers, firewire cards and so on
20:32:35 <Vorpal> oh and cables of course
20:32:45 <Vorpal> about the only cable I can't find is a null-modem one
20:34:22 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, I have decided that calculators suck. Even RPN ones.
20:35:15 <quintopia> although, that one calculator widget i had once was p cool. it didn't suck very much.
20:35:48 <quintopia> it was just a text box. enter an expression as text, get an answer. full command history, all elementary functions implemented.
20:36:25 <elliott> quintopia: i'm currently being half-inspired by one i saw that had two panes; you could type text and it'd be mirrored, but any formula would be replaced by its result on the right
20:36:50 <elliott> so "2 + 2 +" would become "4 +", then typing ".5" would make it "4.5"
20:37:04 <elliott> and you could edit it etc.
20:37:14 <elliott> but ehh, it feels like you'd have to look across too much
20:37:20 <elliott> so i'm thinking about ways to display it inline and the like
20:37:26 <elliott> also the linear typing shit is just lame
20:37:33 <elliott> "sqrt(" takes way too long to type :)
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20:39:06 <elliott> it's imperfect, which is unacceptable! :)
20:39:14 <quintopia> how about a textbox that mirrors your infix expression in rpn on the fly?
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20:39:31 <cpressey> < Vorpal> elliott, basic pocket calculator? You mean, no command history?
20:39:47 <elliott> cpressey: silver spoon. uh - silver calculator?
20:40:11 <Gregor> I'm running Windows in a VM on Debian on a MacBook WOOH
20:40:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, what is there to blink about?
20:40:12 <quintopia> just because it'd be fun to make a realtime shunting-yard?
20:40:22 <quintopia> i don't know if it'd be useful for anything...
20:40:59 <quintopia> but like i said, Dijsktra was a p cool dude
20:41:00 <Vorpal> <elliott> "sqrt(" takes way too long to type :) <-- yes, physical calculators have certain advantages
20:41:08 <cpressey> < quintopia> rpn is a pretty cool dude. like dijkstra. dijkstra is so cool. is he still alive?
20:41:19 <Vorpal> elliott, it is shift followed by the x² button for me
20:41:31 <elliott> Vorpal: separate button on the ones i use
20:41:41 <Vorpal> elliott, well, both beats sqrt(
20:42:01 <elliott> that's, like, whole BYTES shorter
20:42:29 <cpressey> < elliott> Vorpal: OCaml was invented for Coq, incidentally
20:42:31 <quintopia> elliott: re: perfect calculator. one that reads your mind and types it for you.
20:42:37 <cpressey> no EXISTING language is sufficient for MY theorem prover
20:42:40 <elliott> quintopia: yeah, yeah, shut up :P
20:42:45 <elliott> cpressey: well at the time ... probably not.
20:43:02 <elliott> cpressey: note how fast OCaml is, and the fact that Coq is *still* mighty slow sometimes
20:43:16 <augur> cpressey: your theorem prover huh
20:44:26 <elliott> augur: see the line before ...
20:44:52 <quintopia> my theorem prover can prove its own existence
20:44:52 <cpressey> elliott: it was a reference to the reason ML was invented and the pattern that seems to be established there
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20:46:08 <oerjan> <Gregor> Hey now, the disk seems to have restored itself!
20:46:09 <cpressey> augur: ML was invented to write the LCF theorem prover in.
20:46:24 <Gregor> oerjan: I was being overly optimistic.
20:46:25 <elliott> oerjan: please correct this Latin: "Futuere ergo sum"
20:46:27 <Gregor> oerjan: It most certainly has not.
20:46:29 <elliott> thanks to Wikipedia and infamy!
20:46:41 <oerjan> elliott: what's it supposed to mean?
20:46:53 <oerjan> futuere is pretty bad, i think
20:47:06 <elliott> oh wait it seems futuere isn't actually the equivalent of "fuck"
20:47:12 <Gregor> I'm afraid I'm going to get an email back that's like "Somebody was overusing the disk, slowing everything down. YOU!"
20:47:12 <elliott> "Instead, these senses attached themselves to pēdīcāre and irrumāre, "to sodomise" and "to force fellatio", respectively"
20:47:27 <elliott> oerjan: I was going for the blatantly nonsensical "I fuck therefore I am"
20:47:27 <augur> cpressey: are you writing a theorem prover tho, or were you pretending to be the MLers?
20:47:28 <cpressey> Vorpal: I was blinking at the kinds of things you find unusable
20:47:35 <quintopia> egad those macron'd characters look awful in this font
20:47:44 <oerjan> elliott: oh i thought you were trying to bastardize a verb based on "future"
20:47:55 <augur> cpressey: tell me about your unofficial theorem prover
20:47:57 <cpressey> augur: no, the closest I will come is a theorem checker.
20:48:07 <elliott> oerjan: no, I was going for "I [vulgar word for sexual act] therefore I am"
20:48:24 <cpressey> augur: based on supplying a transcript of a rewriting session, is all
20:48:32 <oerjan> elliott: well if the verb really is futuere, you should probably have "futuo ergo sum"
20:48:39 <elliott> oerjan: i think i give up :D
20:48:45 <elliott> ergo ego sum, i have a feeling Google screwed up that one
20:48:55 <elliott> "facio ergo sum" may be correct
20:48:56 <oerjan> in fact futuo would usually be the dictionary term
20:49:03 <elliott> but it may mean in the dramatic sense of acting
20:49:35 <quintopia> cpressey: a proper theorem-checker would be a theorem prover too, so's I can skip obvious steps and still get a positive check
20:49:41 <elliott> defecate, Google! DEFECATE
20:50:10 <elliott> ego ergo sum -> "I am therefore I am", says Google; I think it may be entirely wrong again
20:50:15 <oerjan> elliott: well, my suggestion is "futuo ergo sum", then
20:50:31 <Gregor> Bleh, I occasionally peak at 1MB/s diskspeed X_X
20:50:32 <elliott> oerjan: LOL, Google's Latin -> English of "futuo ergo sum":
20:50:33 <elliott> HAVE CONNECTION WITH A WOMAN, therefore I am
20:50:45 <elliott> statistical translation, it's what's for dinner
20:50:54 <oerjan> (in latin, the first person present indicative is the dictionary term, and also what you want in such a sentence)
20:50:57 <cpressey> quintopia: "prover" usually connotes "proof finder" -- I have no inclination to do that part
20:51:06 <cpressey> if you want to prove it, you gotta find it yourself
20:51:31 <cpressey> elliott: to some degree it assists you in getting the proof, otherwise what good is it? it would be useless, like mine
20:51:31 <elliott> cpressey: (there are interactive development tools but mostly they just consist of little programs that throw stuff at the problem until it sticks, and also things that generate proof steps based on input)
20:51:58 <oerjan> elliott: i should reiterate that my small knowledge of latin is mainly about grammar, not vocabulary
20:52:01 <quintopia> cpressey: then you can't make a theorem-checker that meets my standards, as a theorem prover is just a search routine, and i need a search routine to find the obvious skipped steps in my proofs
20:52:23 <cpressey> quintopia: true enough, but your standards were not my goal
20:52:34 <elliott> Socks killed Always the menacing blowhard. He walked up to the pavement. He Thought of The World Changes related he had created, and he had to Changes related Thosses destroyed. To these I could not take it, you are and he collapsed on a He handed. Spread the wings, he said. Spread the wings.
20:54:11 <cpressey> amen to me not aspiring high enough?
20:54:40 <elliott> i think to my Google-generated nonsense
20:54:47 <elliott> enter english into latin->english, enjoy
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20:56:32 <elliott> Coca-Cola Will me at my trial to an old woman, your pieces! In the peacetime There is only War! Pepsi lord! Tear From the trees! Only in the Salvation of can you find Peace - Peace from Pepsi and so do menacing - in the Freedom of the real Coca-Cola, it goes Where the only strain it available. Amen! 1 approve of this message, and 1 am endorsed by only one known as the Most secret things.
20:57:23 <quintopia> that's a funny way of saying "anonymous"
20:57:55 <elliott> Futur, to have sexual intercourse infinitive, perfect futur, the past participle of futūtum, Latin for "to coupled to a", this richly attested and Useful. Not only the word itself, but Also derived words as perfututum horse, nothing reasonably could be translated "totally fucked", and AFTER COPULATION, "fucked out, the exhausted from intercourse", are attested in the Classical English literature. The noun derived futūtiō, "Act of intercourse",
20:57:56 <elliott> Also out into the Classical Latin, the name of the agent and the futūtor, corresponding to the English by the twin "fucker", TURN OFF Also from Changes related word.
20:58:33 <cpressey> i like the sporadic capitalization
20:59:20 <elliott> Yeah, it's... interesting.
21:00:39 <Gregor> Latin lingua stultum usquam.
21:03:22 <elliott> does anyone actually know latin here
21:04:12 <elliott> http://pastie.org/pastes/1230779/text?key=8juqvscpwzcvbg2pozpa I made it rape a way-too-popular sonnet
21:04:15 <elliott> MWAHAHA GOOGLE DOES MY BIDDING
21:04:46 <elliott> Oh, still has "wand'rest" in there.
21:05:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I found a paper titled "Static Analysis of the XEN Kernel using Frama-C", that seems cool
21:06:00 <elliott> http://pastie.org/pastes/1230785/text?key=s5vjy5qznqtiurzpm3zndq Better rape
21:06:08 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact there are lots of papers mentioning this tool. hm
21:06:31 <elliott> "Rough precious stones, for the favor of the wind to move the May" wat
21:06:57 <elliott> "But for you not, summer is made void perpetual" :D
21:07:08 <Vorpal> elliott, is that the translation?
21:07:13 <elliott> Vorpal: it's the translation back
21:07:14 <quintopia> 01:24 < quintopia> what does doing that entail?
21:07:15 <Vorpal> elliott, also where did you get that text from
21:07:20 <Vorpal> elliott, what was it originally?
21:07:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Translate it back with http://translate.google.com/ and you'll see.
21:07:58 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, maybe not knowing that the function is not invertable
21:08:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I know that one. I don't know the name of it
21:08:44 <elliott> the first line is infamous.
21:09:05 <elliott> Uhh... you know who wrote it right?
21:09:18 <Vorpal> elliott, one who couldn't spell his name consistently?
21:09:34 <elliott> ... yes, but I won't confirm again if you say it in such a silly way.
21:09:34 <Vorpal> elliott, but is it freestanding, not part of a play?
21:09:56 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Sonnet_18_1609.jpg
21:10:09 <elliott> They totally fhake the darling buds of Maie.
21:10:35 <Vorpal> <elliott> ... yes, but I won't confirm again if you say it in such a silly way. <-- what do you have against using the English language in a way that might perhaps be seen by some as more complicated than required to express something?
21:11:03 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sonnet_18.ogg what the fucking fuck
21:11:10 <Vorpal> (okay, that one needs some commas)
21:13:43 <elliott> Vorpal: You see not a reason? Not in the endless folds of Plato's realm of concepts do you see some hint at a justification for not using excessive verbiage? You, not seeing a reason, even advocate this style of wording? You believe that it is superb for one and all to compose their sayings with the highest complexity and the longest form, so that to all its readers its basic message and meaning is obscured, and any more complicated message under
21:13:43 <elliott> neath is suffocated by the smothering layers of crap?
21:14:23 <Gregor> elliott: Does your oh-so-much-tastier OISC have an esolangs wiki page?
21:14:55 <elliott> Gregor: Well, sure, it will ... soon ...
21:15:10 <elliott> Gregor: It's totally hard thinking of one-operand OISCs though.
21:16:05 <elliott> Gregor: I could just use rssb, but, so boring.
21:16:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I have to say, that all things considered, I have to praise your recent speech for being expressed in a wonderful, nay, awesome!, way. Could you expand on it you think?
21:17:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Verily, although I vuill be forced to eliminate the modern distinction between "V" and "U"; instead, I vuill use "V" at the beginning of vuords and "U" afteruuards, and deconstruct "W" into its forming "U"s.
21:17:42 <Vorpal> elliott, perhaps old chap, you are right in your suggestion there. I surmise that you have even more impressive speech prepared from this.
21:18:21 <elliott> Alſo, I vuill be forced to vse the long s.
21:19:25 <Vorpal> elliott, is it per chance to be found with a compose-key sequence? Or may it be that AltGr could be able to conjure it into existence?
21:21:03 <elliott> All you aßes can't liquefy gaſes.
21:21:16 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you write these, pray?
21:21:36 <quintopia> elliott: you have a one-operand OISC without memory-mapped arithmetic?
21:21:47 <elliott> quintopia: memory-mapped arithmetic? lame :P
21:21:55 <elliott> quintopia: RSSB is an existing one-operand OISC
21:22:28 <quintopia> but it's lame cuz it requires an accumulator
21:22:45 <elliott> quintopia: figure out a why to do it without one, then, without memory-mapping crap
21:22:57 <Vorpal> elliott, huh? That won't work here I'm afraid, since that would go somewhere else on my system likely, when taking the configuration into consideration
21:26:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I got confused you see, since on old mac (with that I mean, classical MacOS, that is, pre-OS X, which is 9.0 and older) ctrl-<key> often inserted text rather than, as is common on some other systems (such as Linux and Windows), triggering some action[1]. I do not know if this is still the case under OS X or not.
21:26:33 <Vorpal> [1] Commonly known as hotkey, shortcut or similar terms.
21:27:09 <Vorpal> Usually it was just boxes, indicating it was not something that was to be found in the font in usage.
21:27:43 <Vorpal> Alt often had "useful" (for some definitions of useful) symbols on it, like AltGr does on *nixes.
21:27:45 <cpressey> Command-Apple-Windows-Ctrl-Meta-Shift-R
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21:32:08 <Vorpal> I wonder if this is valid C:
21:32:09 <Vorpal> void foo(void) { /* ... */ }
21:32:09 <Vorpal> if (i > 0) return foo();
21:33:31 <olsner> return with a void expression? I suspect it's not valid even though it might work
21:33:59 <Gregor> Does it compile with -ansi -pedantic?
21:34:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, only tried clang
21:34:12 <Gregor> That's the best test you can do short of poring over the spec.
21:34:28 <Vorpal> /home/arvid/t.c:3:16: warning: ISO C forbids ‘return’ with expression, in function returning void
21:34:30 <fizzie> "A return statement with an expression shall not appear in a function whose return type is void."
21:36:40 <fizzie> It is indeed different in C++; 6.6.3 para 3 in 14882:2003: "A return statement with an expression of type "cv void" can be used only in functions with a return type of cv void; the expression is evaluated just before the function returns to its caller."
21:37:20 <Vorpal> okay, this is like the single place where C++ is better than C
21:40:47 <elliott> Vorpal: not really, the construct is a bit meaningless :P
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21:42:52 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a shorthand for if (i > 0) { foo(); return; }
21:43:04 <Vorpal> if (i > 0) return foo();
21:44:03 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'd go as far as "elegant", because it *really* looks like foo() is returning a thing there.
21:44:27 <oerjan> (i > 0) && return foo();
21:44:34 <olsner> it does make it look like a proper tailcall
21:44:45 <olsner> and I really like tailcalls
21:44:57 <fizzie> Well, okay, it does look more taily, that's true.
21:45:10 <Vorpal> <oerjan> (i > 0) && return foo(); <-- sure that works in C?
21:45:21 <Vorpal> I strongly suspect it doesn't
21:45:41 <oerjan> me too, in fact i think it's even worse than i thought before pressing enter
21:45:46 <olsner> it does not, return is a statement, && takes expressions
21:46:05 <Vorpal> now what you need to do is:
21:46:27 <olsner> I wonder if gcc's statement-expressions can return
21:46:29 <Vorpal> (i > 0) && foo(myjmpbuf);
21:46:30 <oerjan> it may however be legal haskell
21:46:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: In GNU C, this works: (i > 0) && ({return foo();});
21:46:37 <Vorpal> I have no idea if that will work
21:46:45 <Vorpal> not if foo is a void function
21:46:55 <Vorpal> it might if foo returns something
21:48:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, or int, or any pointer, or anything in fact except void
21:48:17 <oerjan> and the Monad instance for (e ->) has been imported
21:48:38 <elliott> if (i > 0) ({return foo();});
21:48:43 <elliott> MOST POINTLESS USE OF STATEMENT-EXPRESSIONS EVER
21:48:50 <pikhq> Vorpal: Didn't they make return foo(); equal to foo(), return; for a void function? (I could be wrong though).
21:49:00 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah you even miss the point
21:49:04 <pikhq> elliott: It's (i > 0) && ({return foo();}); though.
21:49:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, C? well gcc maybe
21:49:38 <olsner> foo(), RETURN; with #define RETURN ({return;})
21:49:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is not legal C89/C99
21:49:50 <pikhq> Sure enough they didn't.
21:50:02 <fizzie> pikhq: That was exactly the topic, and we quoted up there the spec where it's not-legal in C, legal in C++.
21:50:07 <pikhq> I thought maybe they would to make some old K&R C work with prototypes & sane headers.
21:50:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm foo(), return; would that be valid?
21:50:21 <olsner> no, , takes expressions again
21:51:25 <fizzie> How about "void dummy() { return; } if (i > 0) foo(), __builtin_return(__builtin_apply(dummy, NULL, 0));" on GCC? Elegant! (Disclaimer: probably won't work; __builtin_return and __builtin_apply are a bit messy.)
21:51:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does __builtin_return do?
21:52:00 <Vorpal> __builtin_apply I know but...
21:52:11 <fizzie> It returns the provided argument from the containing function; and the argument must be something returned by __builtin_apply.
21:52:28 <fizzie> It's there so that you can pass the returned value along without actually knowing the type.
21:55:59 <oerjan> seriously hacky polymorphism? :D
21:58:35 <fizzie> oerjan: "However, these built-in functions may interact badly with some sophisticated features or other extensions of the language. It is, therefore, not recommended to use them outside very simple functions acting as mere forwarders for their arguments."
21:59:31 <fizzie> Anyway, you can sort-of do general decorator-style things, except of course not very well.
22:02:15 <Gregor> BytePusher doesn't give you sufficient time to both update every pixel and do interesting computation at 60FPS!
22:02:30 <fizzie> Maybe you're just too slow!
22:02:46 <Gregor> fizzie: It has a fixed speed :P
22:03:18 <fizzie> Gregor: Well, in the "wasting too many cycles" sense of "slow", I mean.
22:04:05 <Gregor> Assuming you want to update every pixel, and that you can only update one pixel per instruction (which is true), you have exactly as many instructions per frame as are sufficient to update every pixel. But none remaining to do useful computation.
22:04:06 <fizzie> Admittedly using less than one cycle per pixel is... quite a task.
22:04:44 <fizzie> How's the FPS in the example thingies?
22:05:02 <Gregor> All programs go at 60FPS.
22:05:04 <elliott> Gregor: should be like the amiga
22:05:13 <Gregor> fizzie: And none of the examples touch every pixel every frame.
22:05:34 <Gregor> elliott: That makes me sadface unsmileyclown!
22:06:03 <elliott> Gregor: Three? Four times?
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22:15:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, do you need to update every pixel every time?
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22:19:37 <cpressey> < Vorpal> okay, this is like the single place where C++ is better than C
22:19:44 <cpressey> appropriately it's an almost inconsequential improvement
22:20:08 <cpressey> yay i can return nothing in a context where i said i couldn't return anything
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22:24:07 <Vorpal> <cpressey> appropriately it's an almost inconsequential improvement <-- yes indeed
22:25:31 <olsner> hmm, so I was thinking about putting netbsd on my server... too bad I use reiserfs which doesn't appear to be supported by netbsd
22:27:40 <elliott> it's unmaintained since 2006!
22:27:43 <elliott> and will never be maintained again
22:27:51 <elliott> company is dead, pretty much only dev imprisoned
22:28:04 <elliott> olsner: just use ffsv2, next-gen filesystems can wait ;)
22:28:09 <elliott> on linux btw btrfs is basically reiserfs5
22:30:54 <fizzie> You murderer of files!
22:31:19 <olsner> reiserfs was completely awesome when ext2 was the alternative
22:31:30 <cpressey> i detect a whiff of extreme drama here
22:32:03 <olsner> it's really hard to compare file systems though :)
22:32:09 <cpressey> "ReiserFS is currently supported on Linux." claims wp
22:32:36 <cpressey> "Hans Thomas Reiser (born 19 December 1963) is an American former computer entrepreneur, owner of Namesys, the primary developer of the ReiserFS and Reiser4 computer filesystems, and convicted murderer." claims wp ALSIO
22:32:59 <fizzie> When ext2 was the alternative, a reiserfs partition of mine blew up; after that I've had an illogical dislike of it.
22:33:25 <fizzie> The Namesys wp page does say it's pretty much dead.
22:33:46 <fizzie> But you can define "supported" many ways.
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22:34:55 <cpressey> "Categories: Linux kernel hackers | 1963 births | Living people | American people convicted of murder | People from Oakland, California | American prisoners sentenced to life imprisonment | Prisoners sentenced to life imprisonment by California | People convicted of murder by California"
22:35:17 <cpressey> No "People who named a file system after themselves"?
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22:36:20 <fizzie> Is there a way to select an intersection of two categories from wp? I'd like to see the cardinality of kernel hackers intersect convicted murderers.
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22:40:34 <fizzie> It's 2010, year of the semantic web; I'm a bit disappointed that I can't yet ask SemantiGoogle for "killer kernel hackers" and have it hilariously misinterpret me and return only Reiser.
22:41:03 <Gregor> fizzie: I'm thinkin' ... one.
22:41:55 <fizzie> I don't know... especially among filesystem developers, you'd think the violent crime rate would be pretty high.
22:43:26 <fizzie> "semantigoogle" - 1 result. (And that's just some irclog.)
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22:54:16 <elliott> fizzie: Semantigoogle -> Semoogle -> Smoogle -> Smeagol
22:55:18 <Gregor> Semantigoogle -> semtigoogle -> semitegoogle
22:56:10 <elliott> Semantigoogle -> Semntigoogle -> Semen-to-Google
22:56:50 <Gregor> Semantigoogle -> Smfgoogle -> google fucks your mom
22:57:48 <fizzie> SemantiGoogle - SettaniMoogle - SantaMyOgre - Sat on my gorge - Sand is my urge - Soap on a pole - Raptors are fierce - ... wait, this doesn't seem to converge.
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23:40:44 <elliott> Vorpal: pikhq: you also (but for different reasons)
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23:58:31 <elliott> pikhq: I just realised something (reading about runit).
23:58:44 <elliott> pikhq: My service manager means I can ditch PID files.
23:58:50 <elliott> Why? The service manager knows what the PID is, duh.
23:59:11 <elliott> # kill -HUP $(svpid myservice)
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00:26:40 <elliott> quintopia: in a freetext calculator thing, variable assignment has to come after the expression :)
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00:26:47 <elliott> so you can do [complex workings out]->var
00:27:41 <quintopia> i always thought that made more sense than left assignment
00:28:06 <quintopia> why would one put the operation that comes last on the left? we read left to right damnit
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00:32:27 <Gregor> In my opinion, which you will all immediately disavow while calling me an idiot, having the target on the left of assignments in an imperative languages improves code skimmability.
00:32:38 <Gregor> *in imperative languages
00:32:50 <elliott> I'm saying for a calculator.
00:32:56 <elliott> Where everything is evaluated immediately.
00:33:07 <elliott> 2+2 shows 4 somewhere else, then + shows 4+, then 3 shows 7
00:33:14 <elliott> then ->x or whatever stores it into x
00:33:21 <elliott> or rather counts as a definition of x, but the point is
00:33:27 <elliott> you can use it like a pocket calculator pushing buttons
00:33:37 <Gregor> I was responding to quintopia, whose statements seem to have suggested wider applicability (maybe :P )
00:33:44 <catseye> 2+2(cursor here)=4(this is updated as you type)
00:34:24 <catseye> have it draw the ast as you type! silly.
00:34:31 <elliott> http://peterstuifzand.nl/2010/05/30/calculators-on-computers.html, http://stuifzand.eu/abacus/ is what inspired me
00:34:39 <catseye> instructive, for a prog lang env for beginners, though, maybe
00:34:55 <elliott> "I created a new calculator. This short video shows how it works. I use it more often than calculator that's included on my computer." ;; i dislike this fashionable style of writing
00:34:58 <Gregor> <catseye> have it draw the ast as you type! silly. // .. omg.
00:35:06 <elliott> where talking in really simple retard-statements is considered the mark of a minimalist
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00:35:39 <catseye> elliott: It is the fashionable style. It works well. I use it.
00:35:45 <elliott> Gregor: Codekana, a Visual Studio extension for Windows, has a partial-AST-parser thing that it uses to highlight invalid code (missing a } somewhere and recovering after and stuff)
00:35:52 <elliott> The blog post had diagrams.
00:35:58 <elliott> That would be very cool to see in realtime.
00:36:26 <pikhq> elliott: ... Codekana?
00:36:30 <elliott> catseye: I wrote a program to do arithmetic. You type in formulas with the keyboard and it tells you the results. I find it a very useful piece of software.
00:36:35 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.codekana.com/ It's just some random VS extension.
00:36:52 <pikhq> elliott: Or as I'd write it, コデカナ?
00:36:52 <elliott> http://www.codekana.com/blog/2009/04/02/on-the-speed-of-light-innovation-and-the-future-of-parsing/ Here's the "blah blah blah" blog post about it, with diagrams.
00:37:08 <elliott> Does feature phi in a drawn example of C code to denote "any integer", though.
00:37:11 <elliott> Which is something you don't see every day.
00:37:20 <catseye> elliott: with the keyboard!
00:37:21 <elliott> pikhq: It's developed by the guy who wrote ViEmu.
00:37:31 <elliott> (which was a surprisingly complete vi-esque interface to Visual Studio)
00:37:32 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, I'm just going "what the hell is with the name". :P
00:37:38 <elliott> "Word, Outlook and SQL Server" too
00:37:56 <elliott> pikhq: so it can use ninja silliness and, uh,
00:37:59 <elliott> [[Inspired on “kana”, the Japanese name of reading and writing systems, I decided to call the product Codekana. And I set out to write it.]]
00:38:07 <elliott> it's, like, meant to make you look at your code in a WHOLE NEW WAY or something
00:38:14 <elliott> i'm only talking about the partial ast stuff
00:38:25 <elliott> which gives a reasonable parse even if you type in partially valid code in the middle ({ without })
00:38:50 <pikhq> elliott: So, it's actually a reference to kana. Without even the faintest resemblance.
00:38:58 <pikhq> elliott: I could respect it if it used kana. :P
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00:39:29 <catseye> No, it's too early for THAT.
00:39:50 <elliott> Anyway yes calculators could be so much better.
00:43:03 <catseye> "But the intermediate version, when you have typed the new code only partially, is incorrect. In this incorrect version, braces dont pair properly."
00:43:19 <catseye> I know I'm weird but... you could just prevent an unmatched brace from ever appearing.
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00:43:44 <pikhq> The solution is to not use braced languages.
00:43:45 <catseye> If you type {, you get {}. If you delete }, you delete {*}.
00:44:12 <oerjan> pikhq: i'm sure new-lisper disagrees ;D
00:44:15 <elliott> it's actually quite irritating.
00:44:16 <Gregor> Funny how you start talking about non-braced languages right as new-lisper comes in :P
00:44:21 <catseye> pikhq: Even Haskell pairs 'let' and 'in'...
00:44:55 <oerjan> catseye: not to mention, you know, _actual_ brackets
00:44:56 <catseye> elliott: I realize it can be irritating, but I don't think we've explored the space very much either
00:46:07 <catseye> The ultimate expression of this idea is probably ZX81 BASIC program entry :)
00:46:56 <Gregor> Bad idea of the day: A platformer in which the world you're playing again is the web.
00:47:29 <elliott> Gregor: Totally preempted that one in 2006. (Long story.)
00:47:32 <oerjan> Gregor: very popular in china, that
00:47:58 <elliott> Gregor: Turns out that in reality nobody actually wants to wade through levels of shock pictures and therefore it should never be made.
00:48:06 <elliott> note: okay, so that isn't what you meant
00:49:26 <oerjan> You have been rickrolled! Return to level 4.
00:49:40 <Gregor> The playing field is not FIGURATIVELY the web.
00:49:46 <Gregor> The playing field is LITERALLY web pages.
00:49:55 <elliott> oerjan: go back three spaces.
00:50:05 <elliott> Gregor: I think something like that has maybe been done. Don't recall.
00:50:12 <elliott> Gregor: So, what, you shimmy down the jagged cliff of /b/?
00:50:23 <elliott> Wade through the gaps in long pages of styleless text?
00:50:29 <Gregor> Yes! Links are warps! You want to find certain things?
00:50:33 <elliott> Jump into Wikipedia links? :D
00:50:36 <Gregor> There could be powerups for certain elements.
00:50:43 <elliott> Please tell me it can POST.
00:50:53 <elliott> Achievement Unlocked: Vandalise Wikipedia!
00:51:14 <elliott> Gregor: You have to collect letters from pages on the internet, travel back to Google, and put them in the search box.
00:51:18 <elliott> This is the only form of key entry supported.
00:51:43 <oerjan> letters are too easy. use whole words.
00:51:48 <Sgeo> Note to self: Telling all my problems to the wrong channel is a bad idea. Prevents me from having the energy to repeat my problems to the right channel
00:51:49 <catseye> "I need to optimize my slacking -- hey, I can surf the web *and* play a platformer *at the same time*!"
00:51:57 <Gregor> elliott: You carry them like monsters in Mario 2.
00:52:27 <elliott> Aardvark ... municipal ... barely legal ... artichoke
00:52:47 <Gregor> Hottest - porn - ever.
00:52:48 <elliott> Gregor: Entering a googlewhack gets you points.
00:52:56 <oerjan> also, you have only "I'm feeling lucky"
00:53:10 <elliott> Man, landing on Last Measure would be the worst thing ever.
00:53:16 <elliott> You can jump on game popups
00:53:25 <elliott> And you can jump on top of them
00:53:32 <elliott> When you climb in they zoom to full screen
00:53:40 <elliott> Casino ads will never be the same
00:53:49 <elliott> <Sgeo> Note to self: Telling all my problems to the wrong channel is a bad idea. Prevents me from having the energy to repeat my problems to the right channel
00:54:01 <elliott> Gregor: ...now implement it in javascript
00:54:11 <elliott> Gregor: and if you visit the game in the game, all your points in the metagame count to the rael game
00:54:11 <Sgeo> I mean emotionally
00:54:13 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: go back three spaces. <-- or maybe like three years, come to think of it.
00:54:23 <elliott> Sgeo: ctrl+c ctrl+v requires no emotional energy.
00:55:16 <Gregor> elliott: The problem with implementing it in JavaScript is that the only way you can inject yourself onto an arbitrary page is with a bookmarklet ...
00:55:34 <elliott> Gregor: Nonono, just use Web Sockets or whatever (when that gets implemented :P)
00:55:37 <elliott> Gregor: And render it manually.
00:55:43 <elliott> ...come to think of it, how about you do it in NOT JAVASCRIPT
00:55:47 <elliott> (rendering engine in javascript = lol)
00:55:56 <catseye> firefox plugin FIREFOX PLUGIN yeah
00:56:14 <elliott> you could do it as java with http://www.interactivepulp.com/pulpcore/?
00:56:19 <elliott> the only thing that makes java applets not sucK!
00:56:28 <Gregor> Writing it as a Firefox plugin has the advantages of discriminating against Chrome users AND being JavaScripts!
00:56:48 <elliott> how about writing it in C or something like that
00:56:54 <catseye> Gregor: it's SYSTEM JAVASCRIPTS now
00:57:12 <elliott> I like how Gregor is now disparaging Javascript.
00:57:15 <oerjan> elliott> *real <-- and here i was imagining some game with ufos and aliens
00:57:22 <elliott> Unless he's beign serious.
00:57:34 <Gregor> elliott: I'm not sure whether I was being serious or not.
00:57:38 <Gregor> elliott: I haven't yet decided.
00:57:42 <pikhq> "Opponents of the mosque, who have sued the planning commission and other county officials, have argued that it shouldn't have been granted a religious use permit because, according to them, Islam isn't really a religion."
00:57:49 <pikhq> On the building of a mosque in Tennessee.
00:57:51 <elliott> http://railsblob.blogspot.com/2006/08/ruby-on-raels.html
00:58:07 <pikhq> WHY CAN PEOPLE BE THAT DUMB.
00:58:18 <pikhq> WHY DOES PHYSICS ALLOW FOR THIS.
00:58:30 <Sgeo> elliott, why probably isn't dead
00:58:37 <pikhq> WHAT SORT OF KIND, LOVING, RANDOM EXPLOSION THAT CREATED EVERYTHING ALLOWS FOR THIS.
00:58:40 <elliott> Sgeo: whoever-posted-as-why isn't
00:59:26 <Sgeo> Who gets to decide what is and what isn't really a religion?
00:59:53 <elliott> ITT: Sgeo manages to uncover the point with blind fumbling
01:00:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: In the US legal system? The courts.
01:00:49 <pikhq> Yes. The courts act in her name.
01:00:57 <pikhq> Much like the Queen, except nobody knows.
01:01:11 <pikhq> Now I'll have to remove his brain.
01:01:17 <Gregor> And now, all of #esoteric
01:01:45 <pikhq> Gregor: You'll just get surgically induced amnesia.
01:01:51 * Gregor misuses the fourteeth letter of the alphabet
01:02:32 <Gregor> Also the ninth and fifteenth :P
01:02:54 <pikhq> Also, it's quite amusing that people are going full retard on this but praise Bush.
01:03:13 <pikhq> Bush ran around saying "Islam is a religion of peace". Honest. I am not making this up.
01:03:30 <pikhq> (I presume he meant "as opposed to Christianity. We'll kill them all!")
01:03:47 <Sgeo> Are there current politicians saying that Islam is dangerous and needs to be destroyed?
01:03:55 <Sgeo> I think no politician would be that stupid
01:04:15 <elliott> gjsdiogjsdiogjaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
01:04:16 <elliott> AHAHAHAHAHAGoodnight. Bye.
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01:04:48 <Sgeo> Did you just call me a Tea Partier?
01:04:51 <Sgeo> Take that back
01:04:53 <oerjan> <pikhq> WHAT SORT OF KIND, LOVING, RANDOM EXPLOSION THAT CREATED EVERYTHING ALLOWS FOR THIS. <-- i was going to say kind, loving, random explosions don't exist, but then i realized i would inevitably get a response involving roughly "in my pants".
01:05:20 <pikhq> oerjan: That was a hybrid of "kind loving God" and "Big Bang", of course. :)
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01:06:05 <Sgeo> Dear key. Please work
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02:14:24 <catseye> ntfs-3g created some files on my NTFS partition that contain backslashes in their names
02:33:02 <catseye> enum 4 0 0 doif cage lt 4 setv va00 4 subv va00 cage ages va00 endi next
02:36:52 <catseye> Idea: create tarball of 1,024 files, each named "abracadabra" but with different capitalization. Distribute to friends who use case-insensitive file systems.
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02:37:22 <catseye> hm no. 2,048 files, I guess
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02:38:20 <catseye> OH i just made 2,047 files disappear!!
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02:46:17 <Sgeo> catseye is now a Creatures person?
02:46:54 <Sgeo> Or, at least, is mocking the "Age all creatures to adult" code
02:47:06 <Sgeo> But... catseye provided absolutely no context.
02:47:51 <Sgeo> I know exactly what the code you pasted does
02:47:58 <Sgeo> So will elliott, probably
02:48:06 <catseye> I just copied it from a wiki.
02:48:12 <catseye> I have never played this game myself.
02:49:13 <catseye> Sgeo: I also saw an SHA1 hash of your name.
02:49:36 <Sgeo> I was more paranoid about my name back then
02:50:43 <Sgeo> Right now, given that hash, and what #esoteric knows about my name, and this sentence, you could bruteforce my middle initial.
02:51:35 <Sgeo> How did you stumble upon that wiki?
02:52:34 <catseye> Sgeo: tbh, I googled "Sgeo" :)
02:53:22 <catseye> "Seirei Gakuen Educational Organization", says the first hit
02:54:17 <Sgeo> If you googled for my real name, you'd find a gay DJ
02:54:22 * Sgeo is not a gay DJ.
02:56:40 <catseye> Sgeo: Are you a Windows 7 user now? er, part time anyway? Or did you install something else...
02:57:04 <Sgeo> At some point, I'll get around to installing some Linux distro
02:59:16 <catseye> Sgeo: Use the PowerShell! Or, y'know, don't.
02:59:43 <catseye> I'm trying to figure out how to install it on Vista... PowerShell 2.0 seems to come with some intimidating "framework" thing...
03:00:08 <catseye> "WinRM is the Microsoft implementation of WS-Management Protocol, a standard Simple Object Access Protocol (SOAP)based, firewall-friendly protocol that allows for hardware and operating systems from different vendors to interoperate."
03:00:28 <catseye> That's like a triple dose of evil all in one package.
03:01:14 <catseye> Mmmmaybe I will stick with 1.0
03:03:44 <Sgeo> This is actually pretty nice music
03:10:34 <Sgeo> http://djsethgold.com/demo/DjsethGoldLive.mp3
03:12:36 <pikhq> Windows' handling of case in filenames is so confusing nowadays.
03:12:46 <pikhq> Now, it *stores* case, but is still case insensitive.
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03:14:28 <Sgeo> Dear Steve Jobs: open/closed app development and integrated/fragmented are orthogonal issues
03:17:12 <Sgeo> Sure, openness to manufactuters can result in fragmentation, but there are other kinds of openness, that Android is and that iOS is not
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03:30:11 <Sgeo> enum 0 0 0 kill targ next
03:30:35 <Sgeo> That one kills everything everywhere
03:30:52 <catseye> I was going to ask if it was your intention to kill 400 babies.
03:31:04 <Sgeo> (Destroys, really. Kill all life is enum 4 0 0 dead next )
03:31:29 <Sgeo> Well, unless someone stuffed a creature into a non-4 family
03:31:34 <Sgeo> Which I've done
03:35:42 <catseye> \o/ 10.6G free, so I can actually install stuff now
03:36:28 <catseye> And I wonder if I can get Cygwin bash running inside a Powershell window. I mean, I can get cygwin's irssi running here, so... it would be nice anyway.
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03:41:30 <Sgeo> I love this music!
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03:48:31 <catseye> I wonder if his friends called him Benny
03:50:39 <catseye> ahhhh i bet i have to start a login shell for it to work
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03:55:11 <catseye> %SystemRoot%\system32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\powershell.exe -noexit C:\cygwin\cygwin.bat
03:55:53 <catseye> FINALLY, decent copy-and-pasting functionality while within Cygwin.
03:59:48 <catseye> And forget '-noexit'; it actually works better without.
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04:11:46 <catseye> (at least the cygwin port does)
04:11:50 <oerjan> *insert your mom joke*
04:12:41 <Quadrescence> your mom is so fat she had to install cygwin to install bc to run bash to compute her weight LOL
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04:17:24 <Quadlex> Your mum is so fat, she gives RAMSAN's buffer overflows
04:17:46 <Quadlex> Your mum is so ugly, she has to be rendered in parallel to avoid the OS from rebooting
04:18:11 <Quadlex> Your mum is so slow, she lost against Java in a garbage collecting contest
04:18:31 <oerjan> i wonder if i really wanted a your face joke, actually.
04:18:44 <Quadlex> Your mum is so poor, google won't let her search because showing her ads is pointless
04:22:04 <quintopia> Gregor: i think having written the code yourself AND having it be in a language you are familiar with improves code skimmability...
04:22:18 <Gregor> Yes. Yes they do. Wooh.
04:25:18 <catseye> Having written the code yourself in a language you are unfamiliar with, however.
04:25:39 <catseye> Improves only "skimbility".
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04:26:34 <pikhq> I would just like to take this moment to declare that Daft Punk is awesome.
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04:27:01 <quintopia> but i was meaning that AND capitalized as an "and/or" without taking up the space that takes
04:27:40 <Sgeo> (a ^ b ) v (a v b) = a v b
04:27:43 <Sgeo> So just say or
04:31:57 <catseye> configure: error: 'i686-pc-cygwin' is not (yet) supported by pcc.
04:53:05 <quintopia> sgeo: in english, "or" = ^, and "and/or" = ||
04:53:38 <Sgeo> I thought "or" = xor?
04:53:56 <Sgeo> Wait, that's what you said, isn't it?
04:55:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: In English, "or" = xor *only* if talking to someone who is actually familiar with xor. :P
05:03:58 <Sgeo> Ok, what's the difference between ^ and ... wait
05:04:04 <Sgeo> Who uses "or" to mean AND?
05:04:25 <Sgeo> I think I'm failing to understand some notation or another
05:06:09 <catseye> Um yes, I hadn't noticed until now, but...
05:06:26 <catseye> In C, ^ is xor, while in logic, ^ is and
05:07:32 <Sgeo> ^ should be banned from everything. It's used too much.
05:08:32 <pikhq> No, ^ should be the only unbanned ASCII character.
05:08:46 <pikhq> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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06:12:01 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webplat/ SO MUCH STUPID
06:12:07 <Gregor> (It's also quite broken right now, but *eh*)
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06:16:25 <Gregor> Run that bookmarklet on a page OTHER than that one :P
06:16:51 <calamari> it shows a happy face and scrolls it down past the bottom of the page forever
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06:17:09 <Gregor> You loaded it on a page with no platforms it could use :P
06:17:31 <Gregor> (Also, I've only tested this on Firefox)
06:18:20 <Gregor> This is just a proof of concept. There are lots of bugs to iron out, then I intend to add powerups when you find certain elements, etc.
06:18:24 <Gregor> And, y'know, a goal >_>
06:18:52 <calamari> so I need a page with a lot of images
06:19:41 <Gregor> Text works too. Wikipedia articles work.
06:20:47 <Gregor> The Google homepage doesn't, but search results do.
06:21:17 <calamari> search results didn't work for me, weird
06:21:34 <Sgeo> It does not work nicely in Chrome on Wikipedia
06:21:44 <Gregor> It does not work nicely in Chrome /anywhere/
06:22:10 <Sgeo> Gregor, I'm resuming the war against you
06:22:47 <coppro> it's awkward that you can't move upwards out of a box
06:23:06 <calamari> need to be able to break boxes somehow so you can go back up :)
06:23:20 <Gregor> This is a proof of concept, people :P
06:23:29 <Gregor> The biggest issue right now is that you can clip through some boxes for no obvious reason.
06:23:31 <coppro> Gregor: amstan suggests jquery
06:23:31 <Gregor> I have to fix that first.
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06:23:59 <Gregor> I guess this is EXACTLY the kind of thing you use jquery for X-P
06:24:06 <Gregor> (I never use libraries)
06:24:16 <coppro> 01:23 < ebering> aspergers, the game
06:24:31 <Gregor> What channel is this that you're advertising my stuff on X-P
06:25:02 <coppro> the UW computer science club
06:25:51 <Gregor> Tell Brian Burg "I don't know you!" Unless you know him, in which case just say hi or something.
06:26:11 <Gregor> Waterloo, not Washington :P
06:26:39 <calamari> I broke I phone .. can't get nandroid to work
06:31:28 <coppro> calamari: Android probably works better than Nandroid
06:31:51 <Sgeo> Nandroid is a thingy for Android
06:31:55 <Sgeo> Backups, I think
06:32:35 <calamari> trying to recover via fastboot instead of the recovery image, hopefully that'll work
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06:38:06 <calamari> let me know when you've replaced the smiley face with a paypal donation link, then I'll know it's done :)
06:39:43 <calamari> can it tell that it's gotten to the bottom of the page?
06:39:51 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: pikhq: you also (but for different reasons) <-- morning
06:40:14 <calamari> I mean of the logical page not the visible page
06:42:58 <Gregor> calamari: Not at present, no :P
06:43:07 <Gregor> You just fall for all eternity.
06:43:28 <calamari> well yeah, but is it possible to tell
06:47:06 <Gregor> Oh, sure, it's possible to tell.
06:47:17 <Gregor> Gimme a break, I wrote this in like half an hour X-D
06:47:58 <calamari> no I was genuinely asking, I know nothing about js
06:54:57 <calamari> it kinda works on the phone but typing forces open a search window so you can't move
06:55:22 <quintopia> Gregor: webplat is neat, but i don't like how it prevents me from jumping UP through bounding boxes unless i've dropped DOWN through them first, and then i can't land on them again!
06:55:48 <Gregor> quintopia: Proof of concept! ;)
06:55:57 <quintopia> better would be: can always jump up through them, can always land on them, can always drop through them
06:56:43 <calamari> Gregor's secrets: http://codu.org/webplat/webplat.js
06:56:59 <Gregor> I wouldn't advise that you read that :P
06:57:07 <quintopia> i can find bookmarklet source myself kthx
06:59:06 <Gregor> It's intended to be a game (eventually)
06:59:22 <quintopia> imagine two players hopping around on the same page....then creating portals to other pages....and following each other around....
07:00:08 <calamari> quintopia: to skim credit card numbers and passwords
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07:07:08 <evincar> Only as a doll knows the paint of its eye.
07:08:04 <evincar> Jeez, now I want to make some poetic language.
07:08:52 <Quadlex> Don't do that, you'll get hives
07:09:34 <quintopia> also, it's been done, several times.
07:10:07 <catseye> yeah never do anything that has been done. breathing is RIGHT OUT
07:10:18 <evincar> Actually, I was leaning toward something more along the lines of why the lucky stiff's language project...
07:10:26 <evincar> ...but that's been done, or at least it was being done.
07:10:31 <evincar> I forget the name. Potion?
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07:11:55 <evincar> Originality is hard to come by in a field that's about originality. Working on mainstream languages, you're not expected to be particularly innovative.
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07:12:23 <calamari-> cool neighbor lost power.. too bad for the moon, would be a good time for the telescope
07:13:15 <Gregor> jQuery might be unacceptably slow.
07:13:40 <evincar> Speed varies inversely as productivity?
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07:15:21 <Gregor> I don't know what "tftf" means
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07:15:54 <quintopia> what is the goal of the planned game
07:17:57 * olsner has been reading the long cvs migration thread on the netbsd lists
07:18:00 <olsner> unfortunately they seem to be getting nowhere
07:18:21 <catseye> "tftf" means "true, false, true, false". he was trying to break your brain by toggling it too quickly.
07:19:40 <Gregor> jQuery does everything better than I did, but it's SO slow :(
07:19:46 <Gregor> Load time is now almost insufferable ...
07:22:42 <evincar> Gregor: Using repeated lookups? Using plugins that are known to be performance-affecting? Using effects that create perceived lag rather than actual lag?
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07:23:53 <Gregor> evincar: No plugins, there's a repeated traversal over the entire DOM that's more-or-less unavoidable because I need to change the .display type of nearly every element in the DOM before I can start caching their locations. But all the traversals are the same as I was doing raw, just now with jQuery. Plus now they work better :P
07:24:46 <quintopia> so you've just migrated that POC to jQuery?
07:25:24 <Gregor> Only the initial load.
07:25:52 <quintopia> so it would rule out a game which involves tunneling to other pages quickly and repeatedly
07:26:25 <quintopia> how do you decide which elements to make into platforms?
07:26:56 <quintopia> so far, only H1s, Ps, a subset of IMGs, and As have been platforms
07:27:30 <Gregor> It's a pretty weird heuristic >_>
07:28:05 <Gregor> I played around with it and found something I liked.
07:28:24 <Gregor> Right, if a node has non-whitespace text children, OR it has no non-inline children at all, then it's a platform.
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07:31:06 <quintopia> another interface suggestion: make the first jumps smaller, but allow for in-air double and triple jumps that double and double again jump height resp.
07:31:24 <Gregor> That would be a powerup.
07:31:30 <Gregor> Assuming I can decide how you find powerups.
07:35:06 <Gregor> jQuery version now online.
07:36:15 <quintopia> trying to use here: http://eventactions.com/events-calendar/eastern-time/emory-college
07:37:05 <Gregor> Same bookmarklet as before won't work.
07:37:26 <Gregor> I'm temporarily too lazy to actually put jQuery and my stuff in one file, so the bookmarklet now loads both :P
07:38:19 <Gregor> Now, back to making it fast ...
07:38:35 <quintopia> wow that does take forever to load
07:39:43 <Gregor> What did you load it on?
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07:43:27 <Gregor> Part of it is just Codu being slow, btw :P
07:47:17 <Gregor> By the way, if somebody wants to draw some transparent pngs in various relevant positions, I'd be ultra-thrilled to add them ;)
07:47:20 <quintopia> echo a loading... message to the status bar once the script has begun loading?
07:47:32 <quintopia> that ould give a hint how much is jquery and how much is codu
07:48:24 <quintopia> and what positions would you consider relevant?
07:49:36 <Gregor> Standing guy, running guy, jumping guy.
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07:55:15 <Gregor> I still have some issues with bounds >_>
07:56:19 <quintopia> how about gifs so the running guy can be properly animated?
07:56:32 * quintopia curses the lack of mng support in the world
07:57:07 <Gregor> Bleh @ gifs *sobblecopter*
07:57:14 <Gregor> How about animated gifs only for the parts that need animation :P
07:57:20 <Gregor> Wooh, fixed bounds issue.
07:58:58 <quintopia> well, what would be best is if all animation happened within your code, since you're gonna be swapping out graphics anyway
07:59:31 <Gregor> I could do that, not sure how fast it'd be.
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08:00:10 <quintopia> that way, position changes can be timed with posture changes appropriately
08:00:20 <quintopia> (yeah games are complicated that way :/)
08:01:46 <quintopia> there was this really neat windows program i used once way back in the day for creating cursors.
08:02:26 <quintopia> it gave you a super-large grid to fill in the pixels on, like 500x zoom by default
08:02:53 <quintopia> what's the closest thing to that for drawing sprites in linux?
08:03:04 <Gregor> I cannot for the life of me figure out why it thinks it needs to scroll up here ...
08:07:02 <Gregor> Fixed once again by jQuery :P
08:08:21 <Gregor> Damn it jQuery, stop solving all my problems!
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08:12:13 <Gregor> Hmmm, this KINDA works on Chrome. Better than it did before.
08:13:42 <quintopia> http://www.doxdesk.com/img/updates/20091116-so-large.gif
08:13:51 <quintopia> proof that jquery solves every problem
08:15:07 <Ilari> Seems like approximate rate IPv4 addresses are allocated is about 10 per second...
08:16:31 <quintopia> we still have enough to last for YEARS
08:16:53 <Ilari> Well, two at most...
08:18:37 <Ilari> And IANA pool is likely going to run dry on early March to early June next year...
08:22:12 <quintopia> nothing like running out of numbers to accelerate the move to v6
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08:25:39 <Ilari> Except that it could cause IPv6 migration plans that look like: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/12/our-disaster-recovery-plan.png
08:36:56 <quintopia> ilari: y2k didn't look like that. it got fixed before it broke anything. why is that?
08:38:52 <Ilari> Self-dispelling prophecy... :-)
08:42:09 <quintopia> so if you're predicting ipv4 disaster...does that mean nothing interesting will happen?
08:44:28 <Gregor> quintopia: The reason I wanted somebody else to do it for me is that I'm sprite-incompetent :P
08:44:53 <Ilari> I was saying about Y2K. Don't know if the drumming about IPv4 address exhaustion is hard enough.
08:48:31 <Ilari> Similar counter of IPv6 would likely be fun to see. Much bigger numbers and much faster countdown.
08:55:23 <Ilari> Fun fact: Currently only 1/8th of IPv6 address space is for unicast use. Most of IPv6 addresses are of undefined kind.
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09:40:04 <Rugxulo> anybody here mess with FALSE?
09:40:47 <quintopia> i'm not that competent either, but this'll do for now
09:41:07 <quintopia> (this is only left-to-right running)
09:41:40 <quintopia> mirror for right-to-left, stop animating for jump?
09:50:28 <quintopia> also, frames 0 and 2 should be 115ms, and frames 1 and 3 100ms for smooth running
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12:15:38 <Vorpal> argh, I hate cards with low quality magnetic strips.
12:27:42 <fizzie> I hate how our cluster has for some unfathomable reason stopped sending out the "job started" / "job ended" notification emails. They were useful in noticing when things were finished without extra polling, since I keep looking at emails anyway.
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13:00:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, write a shell script to poll it?
13:02:08 <fizzie> And send my own emails? Well, I guess I *could*, but since it already has the feature.
13:10:55 <fizzie> It's scheduled with SLURM, which has all kinds of nifty little tricks, like a dependency thing so that you can say "run D only after A, B and C have finished" (s/and/or/ or s/finished/started/ or other options also available).
13:11:04 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I wonder what it would do with circular dependencies.
13:12:41 <fizzie> Probably they'd just boringly stay in the queue until canceled.
13:17:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could make the script notify you in some other way. Anyway if you make that poll using cron it would be trivial to send email: just echo what you want to send
13:17:22 <Vorpal> and the cron daemon will send it
13:19:08 <fizzie> It's still a fact that the queue scheduler system should take care of that sort of stuff. I don't think we're supposed to be setting up all kinds of silly little cron jobs on the cluster front-end node, anyway.
13:21:27 <fizzie> Heh, decided to go check out the fancy Ganglia web-frontend of the cluster status; normally it shows all kinds of CPU/mem usage plots and other things like that you'd expect, but now it just says: "Cannot find any metrics for selected cluster "Triton", exiting. Check ganglia XML tree (telnet 127.0.0.1 8652)"
13:21:33 <Vorpal> oh god, arch is switching /usr/bin/python to mean python3
13:21:50 <Vorpal> this will cause havoc for sure
13:21:53 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure localhost:8652 won't help me here.
13:22:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe report it to whoever is the sysadmin?
13:23:22 <fizzie> If they don't notice it, sure. Though I'm not quite sure who's responsible. We have a department-internal issue tracker, but that thing is of wider scope.
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13:42:43 <Vorpal> elliott, arch linux went insane, /usr/bin/python is now python3...
13:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Is that a default?
13:43:06 <elliott> "any program requiring 2.x needs to point to /usr/bin/python2 instead"
13:43:13 <elliott> any python program ever requires modification tor un
13:43:26 <elliott> Vorpal: but don't you see?! Arch is for people on the EDGE, we don't care if shit works as long as it's NEW!
13:43:38 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, wtf. You go make kitten usable right now :P
13:43:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Gimme a grant and it'll be 1.0 in weeks
13:43:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not going to switch to a non-rolling-release. And I'm not going to go gentoo
13:44:18 <Vorpal> elliott, any suggestions?
13:44:33 <elliott> Vorpal: I... well, no, that's sort of why I'm doing Kitten. pikhq also concluded that there's basically nothing.
13:44:38 <elliott> Vorpal: There are very few rolling release distros.
13:46:55 <Vorpal> elliott, requirements for me: rolling release, reasonably up-to-date (so nothing as outdated as, say, debian stable), allows easy tweaking of system without it trying to get in the way, not source-based. And hm probably linux kernel too. Well freebsd can support nvidia drivers iirc so...
13:47:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Kitten is NetBSD-based, as I said.
13:47:54 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, well, I'll just port it to kitten/linux. I mean, it balances out against debian/bsd so that's okay
13:47:58 <elliott> Vorpal: I, uh, try nouveau. Nvidia's driver *is* an OS-independent binary blob and a kernel interface, so you could port it, but nobody really has recently
13:48:24 <Vorpal> elliott, nouveau does not yet 3D, which I um, need
13:48:41 <Vorpal> at least it didn't when I checked about a month ago
13:48:48 <elliott> "Any 3D functionality that might exist is still unsupported. Do not ask for instructions to try it. But you can read GalliumHowto in case you are brave enough."
13:48:56 <elliott> sounds like it exists but they don't like to admit it
13:49:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I looked at that, and at best it was partial for some chipsets, nothing at all for my chipset
13:49:41 * Vorpal prepares to reboot for kernel upgrade
13:49:52 <elliott> Vorpal: isn't there another nvidia driver? :/
13:50:12 <Vorpal> Traceback (most recent call last):
13:50:12 <Vorpal> File "/usr/bin/denyhosts.py", line 5, in <module>
13:50:12 <Vorpal> import DenyHosts.python2_version
13:50:12 <Vorpal> ImportError: No module named python2_version
13:50:20 <Vorpal> they even fail to package stuff
13:52:10 <Vorpal> removing the last bit on that line worked, as in, plain old "import DenyHosts"
13:52:17 <Vorpal> will file a bug after I rebooted for kernel upgrade
13:53:53 <elliott> Vorpal: I hereby file a bug in your system, you have proprietary components that refuse to work with software. I suggest replacing the broken element with an Intel card. :-P
13:54:08 <elliott> Or at least ATI, since they have good open-source drivers.
13:54:20 <elliott> (More gooderer, at least.)
13:54:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah, you find me one that is AGP and as fast
13:54:41 <elliott> I file a bug in your system.
13:54:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yes my system is outdated
13:54:52 <elliott> I suggest you apply a sledgehammer fix.
13:54:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I do not have the money to upgrade currently.
13:55:11 <Vorpal> elliott, besides: don't fix what isn't broken
13:55:16 <Vorpal> as long as it works...
13:55:20 <elliott> Totally is broken, it can't run NetBSD.
13:56:08 <elliott> Vorpal: But fine, finding an AGP card now. >:)
13:56:30 <Vorpal> elliott, old card was: geforce 7600 GS
13:56:34 <Vorpal> need to be at least as good
13:57:22 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007709%20600007850&IsNodeId=1&name=AGP%204X/8X
13:58:28 <Vorpal> elliott, will recheck that when I get back after rebooting, I don't think it works in w3m and atm the nvidia userland/kernel module are out of sync, so can't start X.
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14:02:40 <ais523> gah, why do the seminars on Tuesday always have to be coincidentally relevant to what I was doing the week before?
14:03:29 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:03:39 <elliott> ais523: You realise now that if you work on a cure to cancer this week, next Tuesday...
14:04:02 <ais523> elliott: well, I do multiple things in a week, it's only ever relevant to one of them, usually
14:04:12 <elliott> ais523: Dedicate an entire week to curing cancer.
14:05:46 <ais523> hmm, prediction for IPv4 exhaustion's around 9 or 10 months
14:05:54 <ais523> that could be... interesting... when it happens
14:06:15 <elliott> ais523: omg #esoteric totally needs to host an IPv4 Exhaustion party
14:06:28 <elliott> someone bring lots of displays to put graphs and visualisations on
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14:07:32 * elliott wonders what happened to IPv6
14:08:16 <elliott> ah, apparently the protocol number was used by something else
14:08:19 <ais523> IPv5 is an unrelated protocol, IIRC
14:08:46 <elliott> what i don't like about ipv6 is how willy-nilly people are giving out utterly gigantic ipv6 allocations
14:08:49 <elliott> sure we have an awful lot of space
14:08:54 <elliott> but didn't you learn anything from last time?!
14:09:12 <ais523> I thought IPv6 was designed so that everyone, no matter how major or minor, got a /64?
14:09:16 <elliott> "Version number 5 was used by the Internet Stream Protocol, an experimental streaming protocol." right
14:09:25 <elliott> ais523: there are larger allocations
14:09:29 <elliott> but i think /64 is the minimum or something
14:09:42 <ais523> what plausible reason would you need for something larger than a /64?
14:09:51 <elliott> ais523: allocations range from, like, ipv4 address space ("tiny!") to ... an utterly ridiculous number of ipv4 address spacse
14:09:52 <ais523> /64 is so many IPs, I can't even visualise the number
14:10:04 <ais523> same as a 64-bit integer
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14:10:37 <ais523> [14:09] <elliott> i suck at /foo
14:10:39 <ais523> [14:09] <ais523> same as a 64-bit integer
14:10:40 <ais523> [14:09] <ais523> around 16*10^18
14:10:44 <ais523> IRC just disconnected for no obvious reason
14:10:46 <elliott> saw the first one of those
14:10:54 <elliott> ais523: you can definitely get /128 iirc
14:10:58 * coppro starts an election campaign
14:10:58 <elliott> i think /32 is the smallest
14:11:08 <ais523> no, /32 is the largest
14:11:11 <ais523> the values work in reverse
14:11:20 <ais523> an IPv4 address space would be a /96
14:11:42 <ais523> which is still large; not quite incomprehensibly large, though, just "about half the population of the world"
14:12:10 <elliott> ais523: there aren't 8 billion people alive!
14:12:22 <ais523> elliott: I was approximating
14:12:36 <elliott> ais523: strange approximation :)
14:12:47 <Ilari> Isn't current IANA IPv6 unicast address pool at something like 99%?
14:13:00 <elliott> Vorpal: what's the smallest/biggest ipv6 allocations?
14:13:03 <coppro> and it will be for a very long time
14:13:05 <Vorpal> <elliott> [15:08:22] what i don't like about ipv6 is how willy-nilly people are giving out utterly gigantic ipv6 allocations <-- they are trying to make route aggregation more feasible
14:13:06 <ais523> 6,697,254,041 in 2008, according to Google
14:13:11 <ais523> I think it's over 7 billion by now
14:13:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well, any size is possible
14:13:28 <elliott> Vorpal: you know what i meant.
14:13:29 * ais523 thinks that value is suspiciously precise
14:13:43 <elliott> ais523: it's the sum of all the estimated populations of countries, i think
14:13:50 <coppro> Alpha says 6.79 billion as of last year
14:13:59 <elliott> ais523: which are usually census results or records or whatever + some fudge factor for everyone they missed
14:14:17 <coppro> by current trends we have about 2 more years to hit 7 billion
14:14:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I have a /48 from sixxs, and I use a /64 of that for my LAN. You don't want less than /64 really, the stateless auto-configuration is based on filling in the mac for the last bit of the ip so...
14:14:57 <Vorpal> elliott, on the other hand I heard of cases for /125 and other such
14:15:03 <elliott> SO YEAH people are pretty much throwing away ipv6 address space because there's a lot of it
14:15:10 <ais523> a /125 would contain just 6 addressible addresses?
14:15:23 <fizzie> For point-to-point tunnels I've seen /126's being used.
14:15:25 <coppro> yeah, typically end user points get /64 iirc
14:15:26 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, it isn't commonly used
14:15:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, a /62 or would be reasonable for end-user. That would allow a few subnets if you really wanted it.
14:16:14 <coppro> IPv6 design is fundamentally "make it bloody impossible to screw this up
14:16:18 <coppro> (and they will screw this up)
14:16:32 <elliott> coppro: giving anyone a /46 is just unbelievable...
14:16:40 <elliott> this is a *home* user or a *single* corporation
14:16:49 <elliott> there is *no way* they will use all those up!
14:16:56 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed it is
14:17:00 <coppro> a large corporation might want a /48
14:17:09 <elliott> so why not just make it designed for small allocations
14:17:13 <Vorpal> coppro, only because of routing
14:17:16 <elliott> coppro: you do realise /48 is bigger than ipv4?
14:17:28 <coppro> but the ability to conveniently divide it up is key
14:17:29 <Vorpal> elliott, a /64 is bigger than ipv4 too
14:17:42 <coppro> a corporation might allocate a /40 to each country it operates in, a /32 to each region, etc.
14:17:51 <coppro> but we're talking multinationals here
14:17:53 <Vorpal> coppro, indeed, please explain about /64 and ipv6 stateless autoconfigure to elliott.
14:18:01 <fizzie> "All Global Unicast addresses other than those that start with binary 000 have a 64-bit interface ID field (i.e., n + m = 64) [read: it shouldn't really be subnetted to anything below /64], formatted as described in Section 2.5.1."
14:18:09 <Vorpal> coppro, you are counting from the wrong end
14:18:13 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007709%20600007850%20600030349&IsNodeId=1&name=ATI AGP ATI cards
14:18:20 <elliott> *AGP ATI cards (just highlighting it :P)
14:18:38 <elliott> <Vorpal> coppro, indeed, please explain about /64 and ipv6 stateless autoconfigure to elliott.
14:18:46 <elliott> how do you know i'm not criticising the designs that lead to such large alloactions too?
14:18:48 <ais523> esr is, incidentally, working on an RFC for encoding INTERCAL programs in IPv6 addresses
14:18:52 <ais523> which is arguably even more wasteful
14:18:58 <elliott> ais523: i suggest we shoot him to death.
14:19:08 <elliott> coppro: esr is the authro of C-INTERCAL...
14:19:14 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway for a LAN you want a /64. Due to stateless autoconfig (which is nice, don't deny it, dhcp is a sucky mess) that is reasonable.
14:19:22 <elliott> demonstrating the height of his coding skill
14:19:31 <elliott> sorry, wait, no, that's FETCHMAIL
14:19:39 <coppro> for release roughly 5.5 months from now
14:20:26 <elliott> "Roughly 4 hours, 57 minutes and 29.32 seconds from now, I will..."
14:20:26 <fizzie> For the record, even the "not really a very big" ISP I use at home has a /32: 2001:1bc8::/32, FI-NBLNETWORKS-20040525.
14:20:26 <Vorpal> elliott, no, roughly 5.5018375 months
14:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, actually "5 and a half month" isn't that extreme
14:20:52 <ais523> waiting for April Fool's would be ridiculous, C-INTERCAL's pretty much ready for release in its current state
14:21:07 <Vorpal> elliott, it is shorter to write :P
14:21:07 <elliott> ais523: is he just going to release it with all your modifications and claim it as his own?
14:21:12 <ais523> although I'd appreciate more testing on platforms I don't have access too, the fact that it's running fine in DOSBox indicates that it is at least not completely nonportable
14:21:23 <elliott> ais523: maybe he'll ignore all your modifications instead
14:21:31 <Vorpal> ais523, what happened to my patches?
14:21:34 <ais523> he's likely to just call me comaintainer
14:21:37 <coppro> an RFC like that can only be written on one day
14:21:41 <ais523> Vorpal: the Mac Classic patches, I still haven't really looked at
14:21:45 <ais523> the other patches are in there, though
14:21:54 <Vorpal> ais523, so the generic ones got integrated? Nice.
14:22:11 <ais523> Vorpal: I mean, the ones in the Mac Classic bundle, even the generic ones, I haven't really looked at
14:22:22 <ais523> the patches you submitted via unrelated means are in there, and have been for a while
14:22:54 <elliott> ais523: are you going to stop releasing your own versions?
14:23:02 <elliott> i couldn't stomach downloading esr software
14:23:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, a /32? ... okay that is just silly.
14:23:10 <elliott> ais523: call it the -mm tree
14:23:26 <Vorpal> elliott, why -mm, his name is nothing like that
14:23:26 <ais523> elliott: I don't really get the concept of revulsion at software based on who technically owns it
14:23:47 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mm_tree
14:23:51 <Vorpal> ais523, technically a lot of people own different parts of it
14:23:53 <pikhq> elliott: The idea of IPv6 is to have *so incredibly many more* addresses that they can do wasteful things with the allocations just to make routing easier.
14:23:53 <elliott> ais523: it was more a joke
14:24:03 <elliott> ais523: but, your releases are more likely to be frequent and debugged than esr's, I suspect
14:24:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you know, it's an ISP. They're quite "high up" when it comes to routing.
14:24:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I know what the -mm tree is...
14:24:06 <elliott> even if it's mostly your changes
14:24:13 <elliott> Vorpal: he isn't called Mandrew Morton
14:24:17 <elliott> "Historically, the -mm tree focused on new developments for the memory management part of the kernel (mm)."
14:24:26 <elliott> -- but it extended to general-everything
14:24:29 <Vorpal> elliott, well, -mm still makes no sense for ais523 here
14:24:32 <elliott> and so it ceased being an acronym, really
14:24:37 <elliott> Vorpal: "experimental development tree"
14:24:49 <ais523> elliott: actually, ESR's big new feature for the upcoming release is a testsuite
14:25:18 <ais523> although he just used existing programs, and had to ask me what many of them did
14:26:01 <ais523> then I wrote a fuzztest for the optimiser
14:26:04 <ais523> which actually caught quite a few bugs
14:27:14 <elliott> ais523: he can't actually code intercal, can he?
14:27:33 <elliott> so, will you still release your EXPERIMENTAL AIS523 BRANCH or will it all be through esr now?
14:27:52 <Vorpal> ais523, where is the darcs repo for it?
14:28:15 <Vorpal> (or other repo for that matter)
14:28:39 <elliott> Vorpal: see, esr actually follows the cathedral model (afaik)
14:28:44 <Gregor> OK, webplat now has proper fallthrough and POWAHJUMP
14:28:49 <Vorpal> elliott, that would be extremely ironic
14:28:50 <elliott> Gregor: You're... making it?
14:28:59 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webplat/
14:29:11 <Ilari> IANA has seemingly allocated 5.116 /12s of IPv6 unicast address space. There are 512 /12s total. So IANA IPv6 pool is at 99%.
14:29:55 <ais523> Vorpal: http://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal
14:30:02 <elliott> Gregor: I can't fall off the page, dude. Force html to full height/width and migrate margins to body or whatever
14:30:03 <ais523> = git://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal.git
14:30:10 <elliott> And, uh, body full height urgh i don't know
14:30:17 <Gregor> elliott: You CAN fall off the page.
14:30:24 <elliott> Gregor: Not off /webplat/ you can't.
14:30:25 <Gregor> You can drop through elements.
14:30:29 <Gregor> Yes, off /webplat/ you can.
14:30:33 <Gregor> Because you can drop through elements.
14:30:41 <elliott> I stop a bit below the last paragraph.
14:30:55 <Gregor> Frowny face means you fell off :P
14:31:28 <Gregor> HEY MAN LOOK AT THIS THING I MADE IN ABOUT TWO HOURS THAT ISN'T ENTIRELY PERFECT
14:31:42 <Vorpal> Gregor, 2 hours? that long
14:32:02 <elliott> Vorpal has never coded anything.
14:32:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, I would expect full featured 3D by then!
14:32:11 <Vorpal> Gregor, and custom music and so on
14:32:23 <Vorpal> elliott, you fail at humour
14:32:25 <elliott> Gregor: Plz add a textbox with the link for those of us who don't have bookmark bars :P
14:32:38 <elliott> <Vorpal> Gregor, 2 hours? that long
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14:32:49 <Vorpal> elliott, you didn't include the next two lines
14:32:53 <Gregor> elliott: Right-click, copy link or whatever :P
14:32:58 <elliott> <Vorpal> Gregor, 2 hours? that long
14:32:58 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal has never coded anything.
14:33:02 <elliott> Gregor: For some reason I can't copy that particular link.
14:33:10 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> Gregor, 2 hours? that long
14:33:11 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> Gregor, I would expect full featured 3D by then!
14:33:14 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal has never coded anything.
14:33:16 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, you fail at humour
14:33:35 <elliott> Gregor: Invisible elements should so fall-through.
14:33:41 <elliott> (Like the ones on google.co.uk)
14:33:56 <Gregor> However, it's not always easy to tell whether they're visible or not.
14:34:31 <elliott> Gregor: Are you meant to be able to double-jump?
14:34:58 <Gregor> Double-jump is also power-jump, it lets you jump up through certain elements.
14:35:01 <ais523> is this turning web pages into platform games?
14:35:18 <elliott> Gregor: I... it freezes reddit.
14:35:26 <elliott> Holy shit horizontal scrollbar what
14:35:45 <Gregor> God damn it elliott, stop blaming me for the fact that this shit is super-complicated to do :P
14:35:56 <elliott> But you totally need to be perfect.
14:36:05 <ais523> Vorpal: what do you think of the repo?
14:36:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, why does it show "h1" in the upper corner for <h1> but not, say, "p" or such for such blocks
14:36:08 <elliott> Gregor: Okay on reddit.com you definitely start out dead.
14:36:25 <Gregor> Vorpal: It shows that for everything you touch.
14:36:28 <elliott> <ais523> Vorpal: what do you think of the repo? ;; subtle, subtle.
14:36:32 <Gregor> Vorpal: Including "P" and whatnot. If you don't see it, your browser asplode?
14:36:33 <Vorpal> ais523, well, it is git://, would prefer something I could look at in the browser
14:36:49 <ais523> Vorpal: as in http://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal/trees/master
14:36:55 <ais523> I'm not sure what you mean
14:37:01 <Vorpal> ais523, ah yeah that is what i meant
14:37:03 <ais523> (? on a separate line to stop it ending up as part of the URL)
14:37:09 <ais523> (really, I should have used angle brackets)
14:37:16 <elliott> Gregor: Slashdot keyboard shortcuts clash :(
14:37:35 <Vorpal> ais523, well what I think of the repo: "it's a repo, yeah"
14:37:46 <ais523> that's... quite a thought
14:38:10 <elliott> Gregor: Somehow loading it twice seems to help.
14:38:22 <Vorpal> ais523, well, what am I supposed to think of a repo. It is just a repo, with a .git in it and so on!
14:38:23 <Gregor> elliott: Help ... what?
14:38:34 <elliott> Gregor: Sweet, it turns "free encyclopedia" into "freeencyclopedia" on Wikipedia's main page.
14:38:36 <Vorpal> ais523, would have preferred darcs of course
14:38:42 <ais523> Vorpal: normally, people would have some opinions on the contents
14:38:49 <elliott> I thought that the Wikipedians had resolved the long-term dispute about that line with a neologism.
14:38:49 <Vorpal> ais523, I haven't had time to look at it
14:38:53 <Gregor> elliott: It actually works pretty well on Wikipedia entries too.
14:39:00 <ais523> I'd have preferred darcs too really, but I don't have the experience in repo reconstruction that esr does
14:39:06 <ais523> apparently, he's had to do it quite a lot before
14:39:15 <Vorpal> ais523, I expect it contains c-intercal.
14:39:27 <Vorpal> looks somewhat cleaned up though
14:39:31 <ais523> and there's nothing wrong with git; it just makes things a bit more complex and frustrating than darcs does
14:39:33 <Vorpal> ais523, did you drop the prebuilt thingies?
14:39:41 <Vorpal> ais523, if so, you broke mac
14:39:49 <ais523> Vorpal: not from the distribution tarball
14:39:51 <ais523> but they aren't in the repo
14:40:21 <Vorpal> ais523, I presume you tested with cfunge? I don't have time to right atm
14:40:36 <Vorpal> might do it in the weekend
14:41:41 <Vorpal> http://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal/blobs/master/src/perpet.c <-- hm, "Copyright (C) 1996 Eric S. Raymond", shouldn't it include me and you as well? I'm no legal expert however
14:42:20 <ais523> Vorpal: copyright notices in C-INTERCAL have always just stated the original author of the file
14:42:27 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if that's technically correct or not, but it's what happened
14:42:31 <ais523> (also, the original date too)
14:42:43 <ais523> unravel.c, for instance, just has an Alex Smith copyright
14:42:49 <ais523> arguably because nobody else understands it enough to patch it
14:45:12 <Vorpal> ais523, what is that file for now again?
14:45:23 <ais523> runtime support for threading
14:48:15 <Vorpal> ais523, which file had the path code?
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14:48:46 <Vorpal> ais523, that one of my patches fixed, it was generating // and such in paths
14:48:57 <ais523> oh, probably either perpet.c or uncommon.c
14:49:14 <Vorpal> not perpet, and I can't find it in uncommon
14:49:26 <Vorpal> maybe it was cesspool?
14:49:40 <ais523> that seems a little implausible, cesspool mostly doesn't care about files
14:50:08 <ais523> elliott: as for authorship of the next release, the NEWS file is split up by who actually made the change
14:50:20 <ais523> esr and Vorpal have about the same number of changes; Joris is just behind, I have considerably more
14:50:24 <elliott> ais523: what i mean is -- will you still release tarballs via your own channels?
14:50:30 <elliott> or will you only be a contributor to esr's releases?
14:50:33 <ais523> I don't have any channels
14:50:38 <Vorpal> ais523, I only had like a hanful of changes iirc?
14:50:39 <elliott> ais523: Well, sure you do.
14:50:48 <elliott> ais523: You release C-INTERCAL.
14:50:52 <ais523> mostly, I just announced the new release on Usenet, emailed it to anyone who asked, then linked to it once someone put it online
14:51:03 <ais523> it's an unusual way to do software releases
14:51:11 <elliott> ais523: esr will obviously go by his own schedule and want to put his own changes in before release.
14:51:17 <ais523> his own changes are in already
14:51:19 <elliott> So will you keep releasing your "development" releases however?
14:51:25 <elliott> ais523: How do you know he'll never make more?
14:51:29 <ais523> elliott: I never did release development releases
14:51:40 <ais523> apart from that beta a while back, because I wanted something in time for april fool's
14:51:48 <elliott> ais523: I meant that to keep the peace with esr they'd be called development releases. It was a joke.
14:51:49 <Ilari> Then there's APNIC policy that anyone that has IPv4 allocation from APNIC but no IPv6 addresses can get a /32 without any justification and For IPv4 allocation but no IPv6 addresses can get a /48 without any justification.
14:51:50 <ais523> with the repo online, it seems implausible that an actual release is needed before it's finished
14:51:55 <Vorpal> ais523, hm did you integrate my patch from the mac stuff to fix path code?
14:52:02 <Vorpal> after all, it was generic
14:52:09 <ais523> Vorpal: as I said, I haven't really looked at those patches
14:52:22 <elliott> ais523: So the choice is between waiting for esr to decide this is a great time to release and fishing through the repo for a semi-stable version?
14:52:24 <Vorpal> ais523, a lot of them were generic and at least one or two fixed serious bugs
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14:52:37 <ais523> elliott: well, the current repo version is pretty stable
14:52:50 <Ilari> The first is 79 228 162 514 264 337 593 543 950 336 addresses...
14:52:52 <ais523> the only thing I really want to do before release is check the documentation for inaccuracies and typos
14:52:58 <elliott> ais523: Now, sure... Wait until esr decides it needs a fun fun rewrite of several components.
14:53:10 <ais523> I doubt most people would
14:53:20 <ais523> even I don't dare to try to rewrite anything in C-INTERCAL nowadays
14:53:23 <elliott> ais523: Dude, esr is stupid enough to do anything.
14:53:40 <ais523> you seem to have a pretty low opinion...
14:53:57 <ais523> I mean, you can be annoyed at someone, or not like what they're doing
14:53:59 <Vorpal> ais523, and include the generic fixes, after all, without one of them, the generated C code is technically not valid.
14:54:06 <ais523> but you seem to have the sort of hatred of ESR that most people reserve for Microsoft
14:55:24 <elliott> ais523: His sociopolitical opinions are beyond idiotic and childish. He took the Jargon File, made it stupider, and then had it eclipse the original. He appointed himself leader of the Open Source Movement by parroting things that are either obvious or just wrong, and got immense fame and respect for it.
14:55:53 <elliott> So... idiotic, intolerant, self-promoting and fetchmail-writing. I mean, it does add up...
14:56:19 <elliott> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/show-them-the-code
14:56:30 <ais523> from what I've learnt from working with him, his main issue is doing without things without thinking of the implications
14:56:39 <ais523> like the botched attempt to simplify the build system
14:56:45 <ais523> it did motivate me to simplify it properly, though
14:56:49 <elliott> ais523: oh yeah, he also wrote that article about how you can channel gods to be great at sex.
14:56:52 <elliott> although i can't find it now
14:57:05 <elliott> that was... possibly the worst sequence of bytes i have ever experienced
14:57:11 <Ilari> Oh, and there is also AS number exhaustion... There is BGP extension for 32-bit AS numbers (standard BGP ASes are 16 bits)...
14:58:57 <catseye> "doing without things without thinking of the implications"... isn't that "generalized fail"?
14:59:07 <elliott> ais523: oh, he also flamed the Fedora dudes because he did something stupid and it broke his system, then pledged his allegiance to Linspire
14:59:23 <ais523> people pledge allegiance to distros?
14:59:24 <elliott> because it can't possibly be *my* fault, I'm the leader of the Open Source Movement!
14:59:26 <ais523> does that even make sense?
14:59:27 <catseye> his allegience counts for so much
15:03:34 <ais523> elliott: opinions: deal between Facebook and Bing. Good idea?
15:03:51 <elliott> yes, which surprises me too
15:04:18 <ais523> Google news gives loads of results
15:04:46 <ais523> presumably, some more trustworthy than others
15:05:03 <elliott> ais523: oh dear, bing results based on facebook connections?
15:05:10 <elliott> good thing bing is *already* useless
15:05:22 <ais523> elliott: I think the idea is that it's linked to the facebook "like" buttons
15:05:42 <ais523> so that if some of your friends "like" something, it's more likely to show up in your search results
15:05:49 <ais523> this does seem a little ridiculous
15:05:56 <elliott> it may simply be another search mode, dunno
15:06:33 <ais523> (incidentally, what bing's advertised as doing is exactly what I don't want a search engine to do; the reason I block cookies from Google, and nowhere else, is that it tries to customize search results based on searches and I prefer search engines to act literalistically)
15:07:50 <elliott> Let's invade the Linux Mark Institute!
15:09:21 <catseye> ais523: the internet -- protecting you from the internet since about 1999
15:10:26 <ais523> the internet doesn't really make much sense, but then neither does anything else in life
15:10:49 <ais523> it's probably best to just assume it's a force of nature, and try to figure out how it behaves scientifically
15:12:49 <elliott> the internet shouldn't work really, the fact that it does is impressive
15:13:07 <elliott> and it's a wonderful autonomous mind, really, we just need to cut off those little bits of centralisation
15:13:41 <ais523> hmm, is there anything that works both in practice and in theory?
15:13:46 <ais523> most things seem to work only in one world or the other
15:13:58 <elliott> ais523: logic? of course applying logic in practice is a bit difficult
15:14:08 <elliott> ais523: anyway, if there's a disparity all it means is that your theory isn't good enough
15:14:14 <elliott> if it can't explain why it works, it's not the right theory
15:14:17 <elliott> if it can't explain why it doesn't work, it's not the right theory
15:14:24 <ais523> meh, the real world doesn't really follow logical rules, as seen by my conversation with comex in ##nomic yesterday
15:14:24 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: logic? of course applying logic in practice is a bit difficult
15:14:44 <ais523> I posted it to a-b so people not in the channel at the time coudl read it
15:15:07 <catseye> ais523: i ...can't think of any, surprisingly
15:15:18 <ais523> elliott: the one about the judgement to Bucky's CFJ
15:15:36 <ais523> we were talking about logical paradoxes involving belief
15:15:38 <elliott> ais523: have you seen esr's response to microsoft sending him a job offer, btw?
15:15:47 <ais523> also, Microsoft sent him a job offer?
15:15:50 <elliott> ais523: imagine the most egotistical three-year-old you can
15:15:54 <elliott> well, some microsoft recruiter
15:16:02 <elliott> ais523: I can link it if you want
15:16:09 <ais523> meh, imagining's probably more fun
15:16:21 <elliott> [[If you had bothered to do five seconds of background checking, you
15:16:21 <elliott> might have discovered that I am the guy who responded to Craig
15:16:21 <elliott> Mundie's "Who are you?" with "I'm your worst nightmare", and that I've
15:16:21 <elliott> in fact been something pretty close to your company's worst nightmare
15:16:21 <ais523> and it's likely to be a famous enough incident that I could find it by myself
15:16:26 <elliott> are you sure you can imagine things as crazy as that?
15:16:55 <ais523> no, I was just replying to your "you can't possibly imagine it" comment
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15:17:08 <ais523> I've seen the Halloween documents, though
15:17:23 <ais523> so Microsoft were at least aware of him, unless he edited them to put mentions of himself in
15:17:34 <ais523> (now I've suggested that, it suddenly becomes vaguely plausible...!)
15:17:53 <ais523> leaked Microsoft internal memos discussing open source and Linux, from ages ago
15:17:57 <ais523> they were leaked to ESR and he published them
15:18:11 <elliott> i think I may have seen them
15:18:20 <ais523> with a bunch of comments added for legal reasons, in order to make it technically speaking journalism
15:18:22 <catseye> ais523: boolean logic and logic gates come out *pretty* close, but only because you have things like coding theory to keep them away from the persistent misbehaving of the universe
15:19:36 <ais523> catseye: and I have enough training to know the differences
15:19:47 <ais523> it's actually quite easy to obtain boolean values between true and false in practice
15:19:56 <elliott> ais523: how do they behave?
15:19:59 <ais523> sometimes it seems like half of electronic engineering is trying to stop that happening
15:20:01 <elliott> (ok, stupidly general question, I know)
15:20:06 <ais523> elliott: they generally drive your power consumption through the roof
15:20:20 <ais523> and act like 0 or 1 depending on minor physical details, apart from that
15:20:30 <ais523> sometimes they screw up timing, too
15:21:15 <ais523> uorygl = Warrigal, or Tanner L. Swett
15:21:24 <elliott> he just changes his nick a lot
15:21:30 <ais523> Bucky = Bucky, and uses the pseudonym John Smith on the lists
15:21:43 <elliott> I loved it when everyone tried to avoid saying my name directly because of the profanity
15:24:15 <Gregor> Woo I broke the bookmarklet.
15:24:36 <elliott> ais523: dear god @ that conversation
15:24:57 <ais523> the book I referenced is almost entirely about that sort of paradox
15:25:11 <ais523> it ends up proving Gödel's incompleteness theorem twice
15:25:22 <ais523> a much simpler way than the original proof
15:25:39 <elliott> ais523: was G.'s judgement correct?
15:26:24 <ais523> I think it falls into a gray area in the rules
15:26:47 <ais523> he 217ed an entirely new theory of logic
15:27:37 <ais523> the annoying thing is, I can't actually see a flaw in the reasoning
15:27:51 <elliott> ais523: just appeal it for being judge activism, like they do in America
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15:53:15 <ais523> or, hmm, that doesn't seem to make sense in any context
15:53:32 <ais523> why would you say hi to someone who's been in the channel for a while, and not said anything for a while, when you haven't said anything for a while?
15:53:48 <elliott> ais523: to ask him something that i don't want to bother typing unless he's there :P
15:54:24 <ais523> I only do that sort of thing in /msg, in order to not send people demands out of context where I'm not there when they reply to me
15:54:56 <elliott> ais523: wait, how does the former aid the latter?
15:55:12 <ais523> because if they reply and I'm online at the time, I can instantly reply back with my actual question
15:55:19 <ais523> and then for their rereply, I generally am online
15:55:24 <elliott> well, that's what i'm going to do, no?
15:55:28 <elliott> i don't see what /msg has to do with it
15:55:46 <ais523> well, apart from loggedness of the channel I suppose
16:03:52 <elliott> oerjan: for logreading reference, the company wine/debian/ubuntu were referring to is Blizzard
16:04:36 <elliott> 17:06:46 <new-lisper> nothing beats "cat - > myprogram.c"
16:04:56 <elliott> 18:33:02 <catseye> enum 4 0 0 doif cage lt 4 setv va00 4 subv va00 cage ages va00 endi next
16:05:24 <ais523> incidentally, "useless use of cat" is not useless when using sh interactively
16:05:31 <ais523> it lets you write the line from left to right as you think of it
16:05:34 <ais523> which saves cursor motion
16:05:36 <elliott> 18:46:10 <Sgeo> Wait what?
16:05:37 <elliott> 18:46:17 <Sgeo> catseye is now a Creatures person?
16:05:37 <elliott> 18:46:54 <Sgeo> Or, at least, is mocking the "Age all creatures to adult" code
16:05:37 <elliott> 18:47:06 <Sgeo> But... catseye provided absolutely no context.
16:05:44 <elliott> ais523: it can also improve readability
16:05:53 <ais523> I like your "useless use of - award", though
16:05:57 <elliott> ais523: like writing haskell code with points, sometime :)
16:06:47 <elliott> "Rememeber, nearly all cases where you have:
16:06:47 <elliott> cat file | some_command and its args ...
16:06:47 <elliott> <file some_command and its args ..."
16:06:57 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ </dev/null cat
16:07:00 <ais523> elliott: that's a bashism
16:07:11 <elliott> ais523: is this a bashism?:
16:07:21 <ais523> I think so, less sure on that one
16:07:48 <ais523> hmm, would >foo blank or touch an existing file?
16:07:51 <ais523> the first seems more logical
16:07:59 <ais523> after all, :> foo would blank the file
16:08:02 <elliott> ais523: i mean in place of using touch to create a file
16:08:20 <ais523> people use touch with the explicit intention to /create/ a file?
16:08:26 <elliott> ais523: I do, for instance
16:08:28 <ais523> I thought they used it either to update the timestamp, or to ensure that it exists
16:08:37 <elliott> ais523: how would you create a blank file?
16:08:39 <ais523> ensuring that a file exists isn't quite the same as creating it
16:08:47 <ais523> elliott: generally speaking, I wouldn't
16:09:12 <ais523> the only times I've done that, it was via a GUI, so right-click | New...
16:09:23 <elliott> ais523: ok, ">foo" works in both dash and pdksh
16:09:36 <ais523> I would use touch to create an empty file via the commandline, but I don't think that's ever come up
16:09:39 <elliott> ais523: and so does "</dev/null cat"
16:10:04 <elliott> ais523: and any sh-alike that can do less than dash is just pitiful :)
16:10:18 * elliott installs ash, just to check
16:10:44 <ais523> you can't get more bareboens than that
16:10:49 <ais523> hmm, I'll test it, I have it installed
16:11:12 <ais523> of course it does, how else do you recover from a broken sh?
16:11:22 <elliott> but then why "I have it installed"?
16:11:24 <ais523> elliott: </etc/passwd doesn't print anything
16:11:33 <ais523> elliott: I mean, I instaleld it explicitly
16:11:40 <elliott> ais523: you're feeding /etc/passwd to nothing
16:11:51 <elliott> ais523: "</etc/passwd cat" should wrok
16:11:58 <ais523> you're right, </etc/passwd cat does indeed cat /etc/passwd
16:12:14 <elliott> with f <x and usually f x being equivalent
16:12:35 <elliott> hey, that means sh uses a special indicator to denote whether to be RPN or PN
16:12:52 <elliott> for some definition of ifnix
16:13:05 <ais523> f <x and f x are far from equivalent for some commands
16:13:20 <ais523> it's only convention that commands tend to interpret their first arg as a filename to use instead of stdin
16:13:23 <elliott> which, alas, doesn't seem to work :)
16:13:29 <ais523> ick < hello.i or whatever will fail, for instance
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16:14:38 <ais523> elliott: cat - /dev/fd/4 < /etc/passwd 4< /usr/share/common-licenses/GPL
16:14:48 <Gregor> webplat kinda works on Facebook now :)
16:14:59 <ais523> come to think of it, 3 would work too
16:15:19 <elliott> ais523: having to list your operands is a bit silly, though :)
16:15:20 <ais523> /dev/fd is a brilliant invention
16:15:39 <ais523> (and can incidentally be used to make suid shellscripts secure; some BSDs do that, although IIRC Linux doesn't)
16:16:12 <ais523> you open the file first, then check the fd to see if it was suid when it was opened
16:16:21 <ais523> if it was, you pass the file descriptor to sh or whatever as an argument
16:16:27 <ais523> no level of symlink hackery can get around that
16:16:36 <elliott> ais523: you still have to trust sh, though
16:16:42 <elliott> especially if the program takes input
16:17:04 <ais523> but the point is that it isn't inherently insecure, like it used to be
16:17:12 <elliott> ("if you don't trust it don't suid it!" making proper shell scripts is almost impossible!)
16:17:37 <ais523> apparently it used to be common in university computer labs to gain root privileges via a race condition exploit on "eject", which was a suid shell script that arbitrary people could run
16:41:40 <Gregor> elliott: What's one of the pages you had that had weird behavior with webplat?
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17:01:42 <elliott> 20:26:33 --- join: awilcox (AWilcox@awos/maintainer/awilcox) joined #esoteric
17:01:42 <elliott> 20:26:41 <awilcox> elliot, python is awesome
17:01:42 <elliott> 20:26:48 --- part: awilcox left #esoteric
17:01:52 <elliott> one, it's blatantly obvious greasemonkey told you to come in here or something
17:02:04 <elliott> two, you can't even spell my name, why should i listen to your language opniions?
17:02:06 <Gregor> elliott: That is superbroken.
17:02:07 <ais523> two, that's not how you spell elliott?
17:02:17 <elliott> three, you just came in there to say that, you're amazingly idiotic if you think that'll change my mind
17:02:24 <elliott> four, you're therefore just saying it for the hell of it
17:02:29 <elliott> five, do you seriously have nothing better to do with your time?
17:02:35 <Gregor> eliotte: How do you spell elliott?
17:02:41 <ais523> elliott: it took all of 15 seconds
17:02:51 <ais523> five isn't really a valid point, some of the others are though
17:02:53 <elliott> six, "AWOS is my attempt at creating an Operating System". clearly not
17:03:15 <elliott> ais523: and the OS one is hypocritical :P
17:03:50 <elliott> "* A universal operating system that can run DOS, Windows (3.1/9x/NT), Linux and BSD applications."
17:03:57 <elliott> the mark of an idiot OS non-developer (more or less)
17:04:06 <elliott> they *all* want compatibility with everything
17:04:46 <elliott> six point one, "kernel.kdevelop" dear god you have no taste in both languages and IDEs
17:05:09 <ais523> elliott: you dislike kdevelop?
17:05:20 <ais523> I've never used it, but you're the first person I've heard say anything bad about it
17:05:29 <elliott> ais523: it's not bad it's just...
17:05:30 <ais523> which is nice, because now I get to hear both sides of the argument in an attempt to form an opinion
17:05:45 <elliott> so it's, like, the epitome of boringness
17:05:57 <Gregor> elliott: /me can't even begin to guess why reddit is so hideously broken right now X-D
17:06:03 <ais523> really, for big enterprisey projects you need an IDE
17:06:13 <elliott> ais523: enterprisey is an epithet.
17:06:14 <ais523> the major purpose of an IDE is helping people get their head around enterprisiness
17:06:24 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I think I identified the main issue I have when coding in haskell.
17:07:31 <Vorpal> elliott, harhar. The issue is that I don't really have any sort of "feeling" for when lazyness matters. I keep thinking along strict evaluation lines a lot.
17:07:41 <ais523> Vorpal: don't think along evaluation lines at all
17:07:49 <Vorpal> oops, bbl missed what the time was
17:07:53 <ais523> if you're trying to get eval order in your head when writing Haskell, you're doing it wrong
17:08:00 <ais523> (I read most langs in eval order; not so with Haskell)
17:09:55 <elliott> "I decided earlier today that my OS will be open source, under an Apache 1-like license. This was a big step for me; I wasn't sure if I wanted to be closed or open."
17:10:15 <elliott> your amateur OS is totally important enough that people will pay attention to it even if they can't study the code.
17:10:48 <ais523> Apache abandoned that license because it was insane
17:11:22 <elliott> ais523: but that does not stop insane internet people.
17:11:41 <elliott> who come into #esoteric presumably at the behest of GreaseMonkey (he's hosted on a "wilcoxtech" server) to tell me how awesome Python is because I dissed it
17:11:52 <elliott> without even offering any sort of argument and not even insulting my mother
17:12:02 <elliott> at least someone cares about my opinions enough :)
17:12:04 <ais523> (I've had to reimplement libraries before because the existing libraries were Apache 1-licensed)
17:13:24 <elliott> 20:55:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: In English, "or" = xor *only* if talking to someone who is actually familiar with xor. :P
17:13:30 <elliott> it's xor even then, they just don't know it
17:13:59 <ais523> I'm familiar with xor, but normally interpret "or" as inclusive
17:14:03 <ais523> although it depends on context
17:14:29 <ais523> (even more, I interpret it as alternative, i.e. "do you want A or B" doesn't normally cause the answer "yes")
17:16:41 <elliott> ais523: "did you do it, or did he?"
17:16:54 <elliott> ais523: "did you do fly, or did he fly?"
17:17:01 <elliott> ok so it makes little sense
17:17:24 <elliott> ais523: clearly we must introduce Both Logic
17:17:32 <ais523> elliott: it already exists
17:17:42 <ais523> half the people in this department, if you ask them about truth values
17:17:52 <elliott> ais523: that's unknown logic, probably
17:17:56 <ais523> will draw a little diamond, with true on the left, false on the right, neither on the bottom, both on the top
17:19:35 <ais523> bottom is, incidentally, the same bottom that's the return value of an infinite loop
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17:21:23 <elliott> ais523: and both is the type with one element
17:21:29 <elliott> (confusingly, not the type with all elements)
17:21:53 <elliott> ais523: anyway, actual both logic is quite an interesting idea imo
17:22:09 <elliott> where + is like souped-up and here
17:22:12 <ais523> elliott: these are the sort of people who quantify over systems of logic
17:22:34 <elliott> ("both is just THAT TRUE!")
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17:23:03 <elliott> cpressey: any netbsd luck?
17:23:33 <cpressey> elliott: no, mostly backing things up, now that i have something that can burn dvds.
17:24:20 <cpressey> i am actually planning on installing 10.10 here at work so i don't have to install it at home :D
17:24:36 <elliott> 22:21:44 <Gregor> It does not work nicely in Chrome /anywhere/
17:24:42 <elliott> at least it did when i tried
17:24:47 <elliott> cpressey: how does that make sense xD
17:25:35 <cpressey> if i have access to a 10.10 install *somewhere*, i won't be as tempted to install it on my home machine where I COULD be installing netbsd instead!
17:25:57 <cpressey> also, getting sick of virtualbox
17:26:13 <cpressey> things will go smoother here if windows is not involved
17:26:39 <cpressey> (except for scheduling meetings; outlook actually kind of works for that, while nothing else seems to)
17:27:11 <ais523> what about talking to people in person? that's how I schedule meetings
17:27:46 <cpressey> omg civilization would fall apart
17:27:47 <elliott> 23:28:24 <Gregor> Right, if a node has non-whitespace text children, OR it has no non-inline children at all, then it's a platform.
17:27:52 <elliott> Gregor: bet wrapper divs fuck it up
17:28:07 <cpressey> ais523: it's more a matter of it being retained on a calendar as a reminder
17:28:23 <ais523> well add it to your calendar then?
17:28:26 <elliott> cpressey works for the MAN
17:28:29 <ais523> Evolution does that just fine for me
17:28:43 <ais523> even directly from emails sent from someone else's Outlook or whatever the Mac equivalent is
17:29:04 <cpressey> ais523: maybe all the non-outlook-using people here are making excuses, then :)
17:29:30 <ais523> it's possibly because everyone but me seems to hate Evolution for some reason
17:29:33 <elliott> 00:08:21 <Gregor> Damn it jQuery, stop solving all my problems!
17:29:43 <elliott> [John Resig's guiding spirit disappears from Gregor's soul]
17:29:47 <ais523> but I find it a pretty nice Outlook substitute, and get irritated at Thunderbird
17:29:58 <elliott> i hate both! but you could have guessed that
17:30:36 <elliott> ais523: wow, best imitation of zzo38's style of speech yet found:
17:30:46 <elliott> "I agree. jQuery is really the bset, it solves all kinds of browser problems and is good, as well"
17:30:50 <ais523> elliott: do you hate all email programs?
17:30:58 <elliott> "and X, as well" at the end of a long sentence seems to help a lot
17:31:03 <elliott> ais523: Well ... um ... maybe ... yes
17:31:10 <ais523> elliott: I saw the comment before the introductory sentence, and thought "hey that sounds just like zzo38"
17:31:36 <ais523> it's a really charming form of grammar
17:32:43 <elliott> 01:40:20 <quintopia> gregor: http://filebin.ca/qxuvnd
17:32:50 <elliott> the lack of a filename doesn't help...
17:33:02 <elliott> (why can't filebin specify the filename in the relevant header? sheesh)
17:34:19 <ais523> filebin specifies it in the URL, optionally
17:34:26 <ais523> does file(1) help identify the file?
17:34:49 <elliott> ais523: yes, but... it should really use the correct http header
17:34:51 <elliott> Content-Disposition or whatever
17:34:55 <elliott> it already does it to force a download
17:34:59 <elliott> it just needs ; filename=foo
17:35:22 <elliott> Friend: so have you decided what you are going to do about the websites?
17:35:22 <elliott> Mark Zuckerberg: yea i’m going to fuck them
17:35:22 <elliott> Mark Zuckerberg: probably in the year
17:35:33 <elliott> "On September 20, 2010, Facebook confirmed the authenticity of these leaked instant messages in a New Yorker article."
17:35:38 <elliott> ais523: it's probably a gif
17:35:50 <elliott> since that fits what quintopia said about it afterwards
17:36:07 <ais523> GIFs have a reliable magic number, don't they?
17:36:14 <ais523> or are you trying to determine what the file is without downloading it?
17:36:28 <elliott> ais523: i already dismissed the download window and ~/Downloads is huge :P
17:36:42 <ais523> you mean you don't move files to more sensible locations immediately after downloading them?
17:36:59 <cpressey> what location could possibly be more sensible than ~/Downloads?
17:37:25 <elliott> ais523: i totally would but i'm lazy as hell. also -- why not just pop up a download box if you do that?
17:37:42 <ais523> cpressey: the fact that a file originally came from the Internet is pretty irrelevant to it, generally
17:37:59 <ais523> elliott: oh, I do normally, but sometimes the file downloads in the wrong place for no apparent reason
17:38:31 <elliott> ais523: I used to have ~/Saved/YYYY-MM; anything I wanted to keep would go there.
17:38:39 <elliott> For instance, I'd put installation ISOs there and the like.
17:38:43 <elliott> And just about anything I didn't want to delete.
17:38:52 <elliott> It saved me having to categorise what was essentially a heap of random stuff.
17:38:54 <ais523> hmm, if I don't want to keep something, I generally just delete it
17:38:57 <cpressey> ais523: i usually extract the contents to somewhere sensible, and leave the archive in the downloads directory, pretending it's a cache. of course, if it's not an archive, that's a different matter
17:39:10 <cpressey> "somewhere sensible", though, is usually ~/build
17:39:10 <elliott> but if I did want to keep it, it went into ~/Saved/YYYY-MM
17:39:27 <elliott> although, ~/Saved/YYYYQN/ would probably be more reasonable
17:40:34 <elliott> fun thing to do: compare infoboxes on Wikipedia for two identical twins
17:42:01 <Ilari> I figured new potential problem with IPv4 depletion: After the first RIR (APNIC) has been depleted, "RIR shopping" likely commerces, especially for Asian users. This will fragment the routing tables even more (and IPv4 routing table fragmentation is already bad).
17:43:32 <elliott> Ilari: how, exactly, does the internet stll manage to work?
17:44:06 <ais523> elliott: it's working a lot slower than in theory it should
17:44:18 <elliott> ais523: yes, but it still works remarkably well
17:44:22 <ais523> try tracerouting your connections some time, and geolocating each of the hops
17:44:34 <ais523> the number of times the route actually starts off in entirely the wrong direction is quite worrying
17:45:03 <elliott> ipv6 isn't going to happen, is it...
17:45:14 <elliott> although i have to note that ipv4 depletion was predicted to happen very very soon years ago
17:45:15 <Ilari> Routing table fragmentation is router-internal problem.
17:46:08 <ais523> elliott: it's probably going to happen eventually in 2012, and cause the end of the world
17:46:22 <ais523> (Note: Mayan calendar actually rolls over to a new cycle in 2220, it was originally misinterpreted)
17:46:32 <elliott> ais523: and cycles aren't the end of the world, etc. etc.
17:46:43 <elliott> still, i totally have plans to make plans for December 21st, 2012.
17:46:55 <ais523> elliott: no, although Mayan mythology did have it that they caused mass extinctions
17:46:57 <elliott> ais523: i wonder how many suicides it'll get
17:47:05 <ais523> ugh, a depressing thought
17:47:18 <ais523> besides, why would you bother committing suicide if the world's about to end anyway?
17:47:29 <elliott> ais523: because otherwise CTHULHU WILL CONSUME YOUR SOUL TEN TIMES MORE PAINFULLY
17:47:34 <elliott> or something to that effect
17:47:53 <elliott> ais523: at least solace can be taken in the fact that it's very unlikely someone smarter than a sack of bricks would do it
17:48:01 <elliott> (even insane intelligent people tend to be a bit more creative than that...)
17:49:23 <ais523> meh, believing I'm sane would require a huge number of assumptions about the world I'm not willing to make
17:49:23 <Ilari> Funny how many think that there's going to be some disaster because Mayans predicted there would be... Well, Mayans made no prediction of that day being special (apart of prediction of big party).
17:49:48 <ais523> Ilari: they did, according to mythology there was a mass extinction at the end of every cycle so far
17:49:51 <elliott> ais523: wait, what has your sanity got to do with it? :)
17:49:55 <ais523> admittedly, they didn't predict that the pattern would necessarily continue
17:50:14 <ais523> elliott: the topic came up
17:50:17 <elliott> also, it was 2020 as you said
17:50:19 <cpressey> did they predict their own civilization's extinction?
17:50:34 <ais523> cpressey: I'm not sure
17:50:38 <elliott> ais523: although not really, as i don't get to see the *second* day of insanity
17:50:40 <ais523> their calendar didn't, but I'm not sure it was meant to
17:50:54 <Ilari> I think they though the cycle wouldn't continue (because now (IIRC 5th time), the creation actually succeeded).
17:51:01 <cpressey> elliott: ohhh i'm sure there will be *some* insanity come 2020.
17:51:09 <elliott> cpressey: there's insanity every year!
17:51:23 <elliott> the mayans weren't that hot anyway
17:51:34 <elliott> we're smarter than them :P
17:51:43 <cpressey> hm, there wasn't much panic in 1996, even though that year was explicitly mentioned in some prophecies... i guess they were too obscure
17:51:49 <ais523> I seem to remember there was an end-of-the-world scare in 1996
17:52:13 <ais523> cpressey: that was Nostradamus's prediction, IIRC, or at least one interpretation of what he wrote
17:52:21 <Gregor> <elliott> 23:28:24 <Gregor> Right, if a node has non-whitespace text children, OR it has no non-inline children at all, then it's a platform.
17:52:21 <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: bet wrapper divs fuck it up
17:52:29 <elliott> "Away Team" Returns to Level Above Human]]
17:52:31 <elliott> http://www.heavensgate.com/misc/pressrel.htm
17:52:32 <Gregor> Wrapper divs have non-inline children.
17:52:38 <ais523> elliott: you wouldn't expect apocalypticists to get the year write, would you?
17:52:39 <Gregor> If they also have text, then yup, womped up.
17:52:40 <elliott> "Here's a press release, we're going to go kill ourselves now."
17:52:43 <Ilari> And when it comes to disasters, there's considerable diference between disaster that takes down western civilization and an ELE.
17:52:54 <elliott> ais523: I wouldn't expect them to get it write, no. What?
17:53:00 <Gregor> <elliott> 01:40:20 <quintopia> gregor: http://filebin.ca/qxuvnd <-- this is a .tar.gz. Learn to file(1)
17:53:13 <elliott> Gregor: I don't see why I should go to the effort >:)
17:53:15 <ais523> elliott: I type by thinking what I want to type auditorily, then my fingers translate it into letters
17:53:20 <elliott> It opened with Archive Manager
17:53:27 <elliott> but it gave up and cried after showing a file with the same name as the only entry.
17:53:34 <elliott> ais523: that's... impressive... ly bad
17:53:42 <ais523> it's not deliberate, it just sort of happened
17:53:47 <elliott> ais523: can you not think non-audially?
17:53:49 <ais523> then I have to go back and correct homophones that have crept in somehow
17:53:57 <ais523> elliott: I can; but not words for some reason
17:53:59 <elliott> (not "audibly", spellcheck! :P)
17:54:00 <ais523> I normally just think in thoughts
17:54:13 <elliott> ais523: so when you're thinking about whatever you... don't even have an internal monologue?
17:54:18 <ais523> but they become sounds when I have to translate them to a language
17:54:23 <elliott> you just float around pure concept-space? i find that unlikely
17:54:39 <cpressey> ais523: i had an experience the other day which made it clear to me that i think in both thoughts and words, like on two levels
17:54:40 <ais523> elliott: I've started typing a sentence and then realised I didn't know what the next word in it was in English, or indeed any other language, before
17:54:43 <ais523> although it didn't happen often
17:54:48 <Ilari> It only takes one very bad pandemic to take down civilization. That wouldn't be even near ELE.
17:54:54 <ais523> that's proof that thoughts happen as thoughts, and only become words when you try to determine what they are
17:55:00 <ais523> cpressey: what was yours?
17:55:12 <elliott> cpressey died and experienced pure thought
17:55:34 <cpressey> ais523: basically not being able to remember a word for something, in my internal monologue, but noticing that the thought behind it was still coherent
17:56:12 <elliott> ais523: don't you hear an internal monologue?
17:56:15 <ais523> I imagine that when people introspect, as in "what am I thinking", they translate their thoughts into English
17:56:25 <ais523> elliott: I can, but only when I choose to, or am thinking about it
17:56:31 <elliott> it's hard to figure out what we do when not introspecting
17:56:39 <ais523> I tend to use an internal monologue the same way other people use pencil and paper
17:56:51 <elliott> ais523: i disapprove of your memory and wish i had it
17:56:58 <ais523> (this is actually quite useful, because if I'm at a computer, I can actually write down the monologue as it happens)
17:57:38 <Ilari> Basically, what makes civilization vulernable is strong centralization and interdependence.
17:58:25 <cpressey> Ilari: at the same time, centralization and interdependence make civilization possible
18:00:14 <Ilari> Actually, no... Its just the tendency that civilization goes towards stronger and stronger centralization and interdependence. Some centralization and interdependence is inherit, but very strong one isn't.
18:01:15 <cpressey> So, yes, some centralization and interdependence in inherent -- that was my point.
18:01:24 <cpressey> bbl (unless there's an ELE while I'm at lunch)
18:02:29 <Ilari> Western civilization is much more than 100 years old. And 100 years ago there was centralization and interdependence, but MUCH less than today.
18:04:04 <Ilari> Good thing, because spanish flu really pushed the system. Over the breaking point in some places. And when the breaking point was exceeded, the results were VERY VERY ugly.
18:04:47 <elliott> Ilari: Modern Western civilisation isn't very old though (obviously).
18:04:51 <elliott> I'd say less than 200 years.
18:05:55 <Ilari> Like 90% of population died... That's actually worse than in cities that were written off during Black Plague (IIRC, about 75%).
18:06:32 <Gregor> elliott: Fixed Reddit.
18:06:48 <elliott> Gregor fixed reddit singlehandedly.
18:07:04 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webplat/
18:08:17 <Ilari> Industrialization started in 18th century.
18:08:30 <elliott> Ilari: Modern Western civilisation is a bit more than that.
18:08:45 <elliott> Gregor: you frozen my reddit.
18:08:52 <Gregor> elliott: It's slow to load.
18:08:55 <Gregor> elliott: But it works.
18:09:13 <elliott> Gregor: Things that suck: Walls you can't see. Make them flash a border when you hit them and then fade that out or something?
18:09:26 <elliott> Woot your thing fails on non-white background :P
18:09:36 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, serious non-nitpicky suggestion:
18:09:47 <elliott> Gregor: Have some sort of key that lets you jump into any element with child elements.
18:09:49 <Ilari> What ultimately kills civilizations: Running out of resources.
18:09:50 <Gregor> It doesn't "fail", it's explicitly set to black-on-white so it'll always be visible. I'll use the .pngs at some point.
18:09:53 <elliott> Gregor: Text acts as floor and the like.
18:09:59 <elliott> That way barriers wouldn't be an issue and it could be a game mechanic.
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18:10:33 <Ilari> Usually they don't reach the amount of complexity such that one disaster could wipe it out in one shot.
18:11:12 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, if you can jump into links, you can jump into elements :P
18:11:48 <Gregor> elliott: The reason why I didn't just say that any element with children is clear in the first place is that then whether text is a boundary or not is a mystery ...
18:12:06 <Gregor> elliott: Also, it does display a boundary when you jump into something that's a not-very-visible wall?
18:12:13 <elliott> It's sort-of-solid-looking, sort of not.
18:13:25 <elliott> Gregor: You can't argue with the truth.
18:13:56 <elliott> <Gregor> elliott: Also, it does display a boundary when you jump into something that's a not-very-visible wall? <-- Try it on reddit, then try and jump onto the "report" link.
18:14:08 <elliott> You bash into the "submitted ..." line, which is full-width.
18:14:11 <elliott> Despite not being visible there.
18:14:17 <elliott> But no indication of this is given.
18:14:47 <elliott> Gregor: Also, I'd just like to say that this game has hilarious physics:
18:15:00 * Gregor tries desperately to figure out where any of the stuff you're talking about on reddit is :P
18:15:43 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, uh... you have to log in to see "report".
18:15:48 <elliott> It's next to "share" basically.
18:16:09 <elliott> Gregor: Aww, it resets Acid2.
18:16:16 <elliott> So I can't see what the fuck it thinks of the crazy smiley.
18:16:19 <Gregor> I can't produce any weirdness around "share"
18:16:24 <elliott> (Apart from "dear god what".)
18:16:27 <elliott> Gregor: Just jump up, then.
18:16:30 <elliott> You'll bash into whiteness.
18:16:44 <elliott> From the very first position, move right until there's no links directly above you.
18:16:59 <elliott> http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html
18:17:47 <elliott> javascript:(function(){var%20script=document.createElement('script');script.src='http://codu.org/webplat/jquery.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(script);script=document.createElement('script');script.src='http://codu.org/webplat/webplat.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(script);})()
18:20:42 <Gregor> elliott: That's ... wtf
18:21:03 <Gregor> WHO ARE YOU CRAZY ACID MAN???
18:21:18 <elliott> (Good joke opportunity missed!)
18:24:28 <Gregor> elliott: OHOHOHO, if you jump UP into something, not SIDEWAYS into something, it doesn't show the box? Is that what you mean?
18:24:48 <Gregor> Yeah, I'm aware of that problem.
18:24:59 <elliott> Gregor: Also it totally needs to be an MMORPG.
18:25:03 <elliott> "omfg there are like 1,000 people on this page"
18:25:38 <elliott> Gregor: "5,000,000 free points and a never-seen-before power 10 weapon will be released by a GM on http://meatspin.com/ at 4pm UTC!"
18:25:55 <elliott> 6pm UTC: "Sorry, guys, there was a delay at the office. Unfortunately the servers have lost the code for now, so check back again another time!"
18:26:18 <Gregor> ... OMG OMG OMG ... you COULD have secret things to find ... they could even be handled in such a way that they couldn't be faked ...
18:26:36 <elliott> Gregor: Y'know, it's time to ditch JS if you're getting that ambitious :P
18:26:48 <Gregor> WebSockets will save me!
18:27:05 <elliott> Gregor: Have you considered how to handle following links yet?
18:27:18 <Gregor> Space will probably be generic "activate element"
18:27:21 <elliott> WebSockets plus a port of WebKit to JavaScript? :P
18:27:24 <elliott> Gregor: I mean technologically.
18:27:24 <Gregor> For activating input boxes, links, whatever.
18:28:24 <Gregor> Basically, I may be able to get away with proxying the HTML page and adding an ever-unpopular <base> tag.
18:28:40 <elliott> Gregor: Oh great, so following a link forces a kludgy new page load and loss of seamlessnessness.
18:28:51 <elliott> Gregor: How about just using XMLHttpRequest and setting document.innerHTML or whatever?
18:28:54 <elliott> That'd be less painful even for that...
18:29:02 <Gregor> I ... would that work ...
18:29:13 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. Yes it would.
18:29:30 <Gregor> (That wouldn't work because you can't XHR past the SOP, but still)
18:29:43 <elliott> That also inserts the <script> for you.
18:32:03 <Gregor> Frankly that doesn't seem to gain much over a page load.
18:32:18 <elliott> Gregor: Well, uh, a lot less experience-breaking.
18:32:23 <elliott> Gregor: Also you could do a ~fancy transition~.
18:32:44 <Gregor> Except that it won't be that much less experience-breaking since you'll still have to have your location reset.
18:32:49 <elliott> Gregor: Also you could avoid hiding the information box.
18:33:45 <elliott> Gregor: If you have an HP/bling/etc. box.
18:33:57 <elliott> You could set up the scripts so it doesn't disappear during page load.
18:36:32 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway it totally isn't going to work MMORPG-y with Javascript :P
18:36:48 <elliott> Gregor: You could have most of it written in Javascript but driven by C++, say. (because WebKit's C++)
18:36:50 <Gregor> But it could still be an adventure-treasure-hunt.
18:42:51 <Gregor> In the non-MMO case, what should enemies be?
18:43:35 <Gregor> elliott: You go implement the C++ part, and then I'll get it all put together.
18:43:50 <elliott> Gregor: No no no, the enemies are just "other people".
18:43:55 <elliott> Not each enemy is another person.
18:43:58 <elliott> The only enemy is "other people".
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18:49:21 <evincar> Hey, long time no chat. How's life?
18:51:26 <evincar> So how about Mr. Mandelbrot? I feel as though I should make a fractal-inspired esolang in his honour.
18:51:30 <elliott> evincar: i forget, did you ever make any esolangs?
18:52:05 <evincar> Oh, sure, I do them as weekend projects from time to time. There are a couple of older ones on the wiki (circa 2008-2009, I think).
18:53:44 <evincar> Of course, they frequently come out too usable.
18:54:55 <evincar> I was working on a fun little stringly-typed number that ended up being something between Haiku and a shoddy Tcl clone.
18:55:43 <elliott> ais523: incidentally, AWilcox also appears to interpret the MIT license as having an advertising clause...
18:55:54 <elliott> [[This software is licensed under a Apache1/BSD-style license. This means that you can use it, but you *must give me credit* by putting this somewhere in your documentation:
18:55:54 <elliott> 'This software program contains code developed for AWOS. (http://code.google.com/p/awos/)'
18:55:55 <elliott> This is all I ask in return for you using my code. I would appreciate, but do not require, a copy of your finished product. We can work something out if you contact me via my Gmail.]]
18:55:56 <ais523> that sounds like a typo
18:56:09 <elliott> ais523: what sounds like a typo?
18:56:18 <cpressey> < Ilari> What ultimately kills civilizations: Running out of resources. <-- that's true in a sense that's so trivial it's effectively false
18:56:23 <elliott> ais523: lololol Apache 1 even has an advertising clause?
18:56:24 <ais523> Apache1 was insane, BSD4 was unfortunate
18:56:38 <elliott> clearly the man not only has bad taste, but is legally insane
18:57:37 <cpressey> elliott: wait who is this awilcox person? he jumped in here last night to tell you* that python is awesome, then left.
18:57:54 <elliott> cpressey: GreaseMonkey's partner in stupid
18:57:59 <cpressey> *he spelled elliott with one t, so he might have been addressing someone else
18:58:06 <Gregor> quintopia: Can has "jumping" position too?
18:58:09 <elliott> hosts GreaseMonkey's files
18:58:11 <evincar> elliott: Excuse me, Haifu. I untypo'd.
18:58:19 <elliott> presumably GreaseMonkey got him to come in here to go HAY PYTHON IS ACTUALLY AWESOME LOL
18:58:22 <elliott> so i decided to google him
18:58:27 <elliott> turns out he has a really crappy OS project
18:58:28 <ais523> evincar: I like the concept of an untypo
18:58:34 <cpressey> great so he's not even ok yeah
18:58:41 <elliott> basically i'm kicking a retarded dog with my mind, and ASCII
18:58:50 <ais523> and I've made them before, trying to comment on other people's typos
18:58:50 <evincar> "I meant to type it wrong, but I typed it wrong wrong and typed it right."
18:58:55 <elliott> cpressey: also he uses FreeBSD
18:59:03 <elliott> so it's like a retarded dog that... kills people
18:59:14 <cpressey> elliott: like forth, it tends to attract the crazies a bit
18:59:28 <elliott> cpressey: i think the problem with this guy is that he's not nearly crazy enough
18:59:39 <elliott> like, sanity isn't 0-100 and 100's good
18:59:46 <elliott> it's unnamed-property-related-to-sanity
18:59:50 <elliott> and being in about the middle is good
18:59:56 <elliott> maybe a bit higher than the middle
19:00:03 <elliott> and this guy's like 15 steps too high
19:01:35 <elliott> i would just like to say that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overwhelmingly_Large_Telescope
19:03:38 <Vorpal> <elliott> who come into #esoteric presumably at the behest of GreaseMonkey (he's hosted on a "wilcoxtech" server) to tell me how awesome Python is because I dissed it <-- hm, did greasmonkey use apache-1 or what?
19:03:57 <evincar> elliott: The best part is that it was too overwhelming, so they're building the "extremely large" one instead.
19:04:06 <elliott> it... is impossible to quantify how much you did not read there, Vorpal
19:04:13 <elliott> They were overwhelmed by their own design.
19:04:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm unable to find the name of whoever it was about...
19:04:57 <elliott> Vorpal: You're really bad at searching.
19:05:56 <Vorpal> elliott, what, awilcox?!
19:06:10 <elliott> Now we get to find out Vorpal knows awilcox or something.
19:06:22 <elliott> (I wonder if they're good friends.)
19:06:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I know him somewhat yes. As for being friend, I'm pretty much neutral against him.
19:07:02 <Gregor> quintopia: Oh, and a "dead" position too :P
19:07:02 <Vorpal> not friend, not hostile either
19:07:30 <elliott> Vorpal: tl;dr he came in earlier today/late yesterday, told "elliot" that python was awesome, and then left.
19:07:47 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I knew he was messing around with some armature OS, but apache-1?
19:07:51 <elliott> I lol'd at how GreaseMonkey had told his friend/webhost/whatever to come in here just to tell me that Python is great and promptly googled him.
19:08:01 <elliott> I just so approve of using this word to mean "amateur".
19:08:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Apache-1, and on his blog there's a post from 2006 saying he decided he wanted it to be open after considering closed-source!
19:08:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I blame spell checking not suggesting the right in the top position of the list or something ;P
19:08:40 <elliott> Vorpal: "* A universal operating system that can run DOS, Windows (3.1/9x/NT), Linux and BSD applications."
19:09:02 <elliott> Interestingly, using this as a heuristic to detect people who are terrible at creating OSes is effective with about 90% success rate.
19:09:06 <ais523> elliott: come to think of it, doesn't Windows fit that description? and Linux?
19:09:10 <elliott> ("Wants to emulate [popular system]")
19:09:16 <ais523> you can get appropriate emulators/compat libraries
19:09:18 <elliott> ais523: presumably, he means "on the same level as"
19:09:22 <ais523> admittedly, it doesn't always work
19:09:26 <elliott> anyway, as an *OS* goal, it's insane
19:09:32 <ais523> also, "BSD applications"?
19:09:37 <ais523> is there binary compat between BSD variants?
19:09:46 <elliott> ais523: pretty sure there is, yes
19:09:55 <elliott> ais523: they're pretty similar
19:09:57 <Gregor> Imperfect binary compatibility, but some.
19:09:59 <elliott> most development is like in drivers and stuff
19:10:48 <Vorpal> elliott, well, maybe he changed since back then, didn't knew him back then. I would classify him as a BSD licence fan. Oh and openly FreeBSD fan and linux hater.
19:10:58 <Vorpal> well, not linux hater. He dislikes linux though
19:11:18 <elliott> It's one thing to prefer BSDs, and I'd probably agree.
19:11:23 <elliott> But c'mon, I mean, they're almost identical!
19:11:37 <elliott> You have to be the most narrow-minded idiot ever to *strongly* prefer one over the other!
19:12:00 <elliott> Vorpal: he called apache 1 a "BSD-style license"
19:12:05 <elliott> as it has an advertising clause and also insanity
19:12:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well, he said he some years ago read a few thousand lines of the then current linux kernel source code, and since then he decided to not touch linux any more. That was at like 2.0 or something like that
19:12:27 <ais523> elliott: apache 2 is equally huge, but considerably saner
19:12:29 <evincar> I'm not sure it's valid to "strongly" prefer any particular operating system over another these days. There's compatibility where it matters and proprietary applications where there have to be or where developers are lazy.
19:12:42 <ais523> it's basically been described as BSD3 written by someone trying to cover every possible eventuality
19:12:51 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I wonder who put him up at that "python is awesome" thing...
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19:15:40 <Vorpal> ais523, why not just make a generic match? I mean. I always thought that the "you are on your own" clause of normal BSD licenses was very wordy.
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19:16:20 <ais523> apache2 is the sort of license lawyers like
19:16:22 <Vorpal> something like "I'm not responsible for any damage or other results that this software causes, no matter what"
19:17:09 <Vorpal> ais523, are there any holes in my example?
19:17:12 <evincar> There should be an "as-is" clause in Creative Commons.
19:17:24 <ais523> Vorpal: of course, there are holes in anything if you have sufficiently expensive lawyers
19:17:44 <Vorpal> ais523, but that is a blanket statement.... How could there possibly be any way around it
19:18:01 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I wonder who put him up at that "python is awesome" thing...
19:18:04 <elliott> Vorpal: GreaseMonkey, most likely
19:18:05 <ais523> Vorpal: law doesn't work like programming
19:18:09 <elliott> I informed GreaseMonkey that Python sucked
19:18:19 <ais523> in fact, such a disclaimer is probably completely invalid in the UK, as well as many other countries
19:18:19 <elliott> "No it's fast, see this mod player I wrote in it"
19:18:22 <ais523> for one thing, it isn't in allcaps
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19:18:32 <ais523> for another thing, it's probably illegally broad and doesn't have any severability clause
19:18:33 <elliott> "Nobody gives a shit, that has nothing to do with whether Python is good or not, or even whether it's fast or not really"
19:18:40 <Vorpal> elliott, yep, just got it confirmed
19:18:40 <elliott> "I wrote this mod player you see"
19:18:49 <elliott> Vorpal: CONVULSING WITH THE ENEMY?!
19:19:20 <Vorpal> elliott, who? No, not greasemonkey.
19:19:31 <Vorpal> I didn't ask greasemonkey
19:19:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:19:43 <elliott> The Python-loving, my-name-misspelling,
19:19:47 <elliott> bad-OS-writing, Apache-1-using,
19:20:22 -!- Gregor has joined.
19:20:32 <elliott> evincar: omg i said "smelly", shit :P
19:20:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: In *common law districts*, there are no holes in such a disclamer.
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19:21:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because the wording doesn't matter that much if the intent is clear.
19:21:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well, *shrug*.
19:21:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: However, under civil law, you need to be specific.
19:21:32 <elliott> evincar: I'll add your hominid to my collection.
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19:21:58 <pikhq> (note: specific wording helps in common law, because it makes the intent less debatable)
19:21:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, err, they don't accept Kleene star?
19:22:07 <Vorpal> which is what that is pretty much
19:22:23 <elliott> and even despite that it's nothing like that at all
19:22:30 <elliott> Vorpal: it's like getting someone to sign a contract saying
19:22:41 <elliott> "If my machines of evil accidentally kill you and maul your spouse, it's not my fault"
19:22:54 <elliott> and then showing them into the Perfectly Locked Chamber of Evil
19:22:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: Most of the copyright licenses out there actually only really work under the US interpretation of copyright law.
19:22:58 <elliott> and turning ont he Machines of Evil
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19:23:14 <pikhq> This manages only to work because international treaties hack it all into working.
19:23:18 <Vorpal> elliott, that isn't accidental though
19:23:24 <Vorpal> elliott, since you turned it on
19:23:32 <elliott> Vorpal: The machines of evil were designed to make toast.
19:23:42 <elliott> Totally. It's right there on the website.
19:23:50 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, well, the shoving of them in there is suspect
19:23:51 <pikhq> Licenses that work in pretty much of the world include: GPLv3, the class of Creative Commons licenses.
19:23:59 <ais523> elliott: do you know why warranty disclaimers are always in allcaps? there's a law saying they have to be "prominent", and a court decision finding that being written in allcaps makes something prominent
19:24:00 <elliott> "I got a project to create a basic operating system which will just boot up and can run a calculator in it. I have 28 days to complete the project. I have absolute no idea about how to do it? What I know is basic C programming."
19:24:02 <evincar> elliott: Right, they need to turn it on for themselves, aware of the potential (or guaranteed) consequences of flipping the Doom Switch.
19:24:08 <elliott> Someone's been posting on rent-a-coder sites!
19:24:18 <elliott> Or has just got homework in a class they are terribly badly equipped for.
19:24:19 <ais523> and so no lawyer even tries to use, say, bold
19:24:30 <pikhq> GPLv3 by defining terms in such a way that it's independent of legal system, CC by having a set of essentially equivalent licenses for each country.
19:24:45 <elliott> evincar: Note: Flipping the Doom Switch is mandatory per the contract.
19:24:55 <elliott> However, the flipper is still entirely responsible for whatever results.
19:25:11 <ais523> elliott: such contracts are illegal in the UK
19:25:15 <evincar> ais523: And in terms of legibility, all-caps legalese is even worse than ordinary legalese.
19:25:30 <elliott> pikhq: so, basically, a bunch of platform abstraction functions vs. a bunch of ports
19:25:33 <ais523> personally, I think burying something at the bottom of an EULA makes it non-prominent whether it's in allcaps or not
19:25:50 <pikhq> elliott: CC actually calls it "jurisdiction ports".
19:26:27 <pikhq> ais523: Well, EULAs are of dubious legality in the US.
19:26:58 <ais523> but a warranty disclaimer may survive disconnection from the EULA itself
19:27:32 <pikhq> I think the only ones that have been held up are designed in such a way that you can disagree with it and actually get your money back.
19:27:49 <pikhq> Though it's still ridiculous that they claim to set terms *more restrictive* than normal copyright.
19:27:52 <ais523> hmm, Slashdot story comes up that says the 2012 date is out by 60 days, rather than 208 years
19:28:14 <ais523> comments say that someone else calced it to be 4000 years out
19:28:21 <Vorpal> I would like a short concise license, that did: 1) I'm not responsible for damage (or anything else for that matter), no matter what 2) I'm the author, and if you reuse the code, you need to mention that you do so somewhere. 3) you can't use my name in advertising your product using my code (unless you have explicit permission from me)
19:28:37 <Vorpal> this is pretty much BSD, but well, it isn't concise
19:28:43 <ais523> conclusion: we don't really know how the mayan calendar syncs with ours
19:28:47 <ais523> Vorpal: BSD3 isn't wordy, really
19:28:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Impossible in civil law.
19:28:55 <ais523> the whole thing fits onto a screen at once
19:29:04 <Vorpal> ais523, compared to how short it should be
19:29:31 <elliott> Vorpal: (3) is implicit in all civilised countries
19:29:49 <ais523> <acrobg> The apocalypse that won't happen Dec. 21, 2012 is now expected to not happen on Feb. 19, 2013...got it.
19:29:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: It needs to be explicit in the US. We despise civilization.
19:29:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, well then the obvious solution is to write a short liability clause and then only distribute the software under pseudonym, using tor to upload it for distribution
19:30:05 <evincar> elliott: Perhaps there ought to be a nice terse logical language for expressing legal predicates and consequents...
19:30:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, then if it causes damage they can't do anything about it anyway
19:30:16 <Gregor> The urge to click "WebPlat!" while on every page I visit is almost unbearable.
19:30:16 <ais523> evincar: there won't be, it would put certain lawyers out of a job
19:30:25 <ais523> Gregor: what does WebPlat! do?
19:30:31 <ais523> oh, it's your platform game
19:30:33 <elliott> ais523: it's a platformer game played on web pages
19:30:43 <ais523> yep, just made the association with the conversation we'd been having
19:30:46 <evincar> ais523, elliott: Of course it's a terrible idea. I thought this site was in the business of terrible ideas in computer linguistics.
19:30:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, best to still make the other clauses longer, otherwise people might get around them in bad ways
19:30:58 <ais523> more... unconventional ideas
19:31:00 <ais523> some of them are actually good
19:31:03 <elliott> evincar: "Site"? "Computer linguistics"?
19:31:09 <evincar> Very true. I'm just playing.
19:31:10 <elliott> evincar: Community. Programming languages.
19:31:17 <elliott> Computer linguistics is computational linguistics is not programming :P
19:31:53 <evincar> Well, I was using "computer linguistics" to refer to something specifically *not* compuational linguistics.
19:32:18 <elliott> wow. OpenBSD has its own pkg-config
19:32:21 <elliott> because pkg-config is GPL'd...
19:32:22 <pikhq> People are critical of Creative Commons *under the premise that copyright law sucks*?
19:32:26 <pikhq> WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE.
19:32:34 <pikhq> elliott: OpenBSD has its own most things.
19:32:46 <elliott> that's like writing your own, I don't know, irssi
19:32:55 <pikhq> elliott: I mean, why do you think they wrote OpenSSL?
19:33:04 <elliott> pikhq: desire to inject terrible code into the world?
19:33:16 <pikhq> Oh, wait, that's not them.
19:33:19 <elliott> I'd probably trust gnutls more than openssl, and that's saying something.
19:33:24 <elliott> yeah no openssl isn't them
19:33:40 <elliott> openssh is like the only good thing they've done :-P
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19:33:56 <ais523> hmm, according to a Slashdot comment, the Mayan calendar was originally 260 days per year, but they changed it when it got out of sync
19:34:02 <ais523> which would presumably have happened pretty quickly
19:34:22 <pikhq> elliott: They're also responsible for some of GCC's "security" features.
19:34:45 <elliott> it's not called that any more :P
19:34:55 <elliott> it now has the incredibly catchy name:
19:34:59 <elliott> "stack smashing protector"
19:35:30 <Vorpal> ais523, like... every few years?
19:35:32 <elliott> pikhq: Did you know: PuTTY is available for Linux?
19:35:35 <Gregor> elliott: Wall-clinging. Bad idea, or best idea ever?
19:35:41 <elliott> Gregor: BEST IDEA EVER OMG
19:35:42 <ais523> you know, I actually like the tendency of F/OSS projects to give things boring but descriptive names
19:35:51 <elliott> Gregor: Add a ninja rope like in Worms.
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19:35:58 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, who doesn't
19:36:05 <ais523> "subpixel antialiasing" is so much more descriptive than "ClearType"
19:36:07 <elliott> ais523: I do too, except actually it's damn rare.
19:36:07 <pikhq> They've actually got quite a lot of good things done for security's sake. Which is good, because if they didn't do that actually well, then they'd basically have no reason to be used. :P
19:36:14 <elliott> ais523: GNOME basically invented doing that :P
19:36:21 <elliott> At least, as far as applications go.
19:36:22 <ais523> I couldn't figure out what the Windows option was meant to do when I first came across it
19:36:36 <elliott> ais523: well, "subpixel antialiasing" is also quite opaque...
19:36:45 <ais523> well, it describes what it is pretty accurately
19:36:57 <pikhq> elliott: Unless you're aware of what a pixel is and what antialiasing is.
19:36:57 <ais523> you need to know what antialiasing is, ofc
19:37:12 <pikhq> elliott: Whereas ClearType, you need to make a point of looking up what ClearType *is*.
19:37:17 <elliott> ais523: I'd go for "LCD-optimised rendering" or something.
19:37:19 <thebluestlight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Haj-CJOERTs&feature=related
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19:37:30 <elliott> LCD is jargon too, but I figure it's gotta become universal sometime.
19:37:30 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a lie though
19:37:38 <pikhq> elliott: What's rendering?
19:37:41 <elliott> it's not the antialiasing per se that's subpixel
19:37:41 <ais523> elliott: you could use "flatscreen"
19:37:42 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you have against jargon?
19:37:49 <pikhq> elliott: Isn't that where you make lard?
19:37:50 <elliott> ais523: not all LCDs are flat screened, I'd assume :P
19:37:53 <ais523> which is what nontechnical users normally call them
19:37:59 <ais523> elliott: pretty much all
19:38:08 <pikhq> ais523: There's flatscreen CRTs.
19:38:10 <ais523> there's no reason to make an LCD screen thicker than flat
19:38:10 <elliott> Vorpal: I have nothing against jargon, I have something against pointless jargon, and something strongly for usability.
19:38:12 <Gregor> thebluestlight: People who come into IRC channels they've never been to before and immediately advertise some URL not related to the channel are rarely appreciated.
19:38:28 <ais523> pikhq: well, non-technical users seem to use "flat" to mean "thin" in this context, even though it doesn't mean that
19:38:29 <pikhq> (the display surface is flat)
19:38:29 <elliott> I don't think someone should have to learn what a pixel is, what a *sub*pixel is, and what antialiasing is, to know how to set the font rendering for their subpixel order.
19:38:41 <elliott> However, RGB has practically won.
19:38:48 <pikhq> ais523: They're marketed as flatscreen. Actually marketed.
19:38:51 <elliott> So in reality 90% of users never need to see that.
19:38:55 -!- thebluestlight has left (?).
19:38:58 <elliott> You could put it in an Advanced section, but I see no reason not to make them readable too.
19:39:04 <Vorpal> elliott, it is perfectly usable to call it subpixel antialiasing! Do you try to replace words such as "clutch" and "accelerator" in cars too?
19:39:08 <ais523> anyway, flat CRTs are as far as I know only used in oscilloscopes
19:39:15 <Vorpal> they are opaque to someone who never heard of a car before
19:39:22 <Vorpal> elliott, especially clutch
19:39:24 <ais523> "accelerator" is pretty non-opaque
19:39:29 <ais523> it makes the car accelerate
19:39:31 <pikhq> ais523: High-end CRT displays.
19:39:33 <Vorpal> ais523, only if you know basic physics
19:39:33 <elliott> Meanwhile, I'm not talking to Vorpal because he compares a computer to a car.
19:39:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: In America, we replace "clutch" with "automatic transmission" ;)
19:39:41 <pikhq> (i.e. the only kind you can still purchase)
19:39:44 <ais523> elliott: never visit Slashdot
19:39:55 <elliott> I wonder if Vorpal would like his washing machine to come plastered with washing machine engineer terminology.
19:40:03 <elliott> Perhaps he could take the time to learn it all?
19:40:05 <Vorpal> also I don't see the issue of comparing a computer to a car
19:40:12 <Vorpal> elliott, yes that would be cool
19:40:14 <ais523> elliott: they do, don't they?
19:40:31 <ais523> elliott: discussion about limescale?
19:40:35 <pikhq> Spin cycle. What does that mean?
19:40:39 <elliott> ais523: That's on the front of a washing machine?
19:40:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, or the "centrifuge"
19:40:45 <ais523> elliott: it's in the manual
19:40:45 <Gregor> pikhq: spin ... IN CIRCLES!
19:40:47 <pikhq> Maybe the machine itself spins?
19:40:50 <elliott> "I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT: Limescale in this tiny box."
19:41:00 <ais523> washing machines, you nearly always need to read the manual to use them properly
19:41:04 <pikhq> elliott: "Detergent". As opposed to "soap".
19:41:11 <pikhq> ais523: Nobody does.
19:41:13 <ais523> likewise, what's the difference between 30 and 60 degrees C?
19:41:14 <Vorpal> (besides isn't it centripetal!?)
19:41:15 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, seriously, I'm not arguing against all terminology.
19:41:24 <ais523> Vorpal: no, it's the centrifugal effect
19:41:44 <elliott> pikhq: I'm saying that "subpixel antialiasing" is *needlessly* jargon-filled.
19:41:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's just that the centrifugal force is make-believe.
19:41:45 <ais523> it's what you get when something was moving in a circle but you remove or reduce the centripetal force
19:42:03 <elliott> "Flat-screen optimised rendering" in the font configuration.
19:42:04 <ais523> the centrifugal effect turned out not to be a force, but it nevertheless exists, just has a different reason behind it
19:42:13 <ais523> whereas centripetal force does exist but is something else
19:42:54 <evincar> elliott: Not to mention the fact that antialiasing on a screen is already in some sense perceptually "subpixel"...
19:43:11 <ais523> hmm, that's a good point
19:43:14 <elliott> evincar: To the eye, yeah.
19:43:20 <ais523> elliott: to the calculator, too
19:43:26 <Vorpal> ais523, hm wrt. reading manuals. I have noted that multi-function printer/scanner/copier devices are often easier to use than plain old printers. Because the former often has at least a small display for showing options for copying. And uses that to display something like "paper jam" or "out of black ink". While the latter uses like 3 LEDs and blinks them in different combinations to indicate different
19:43:27 <ais523> if everything fell on exact pixels, antialiasing wouldn't be necessary
19:43:29 <evincar> I'm a pixel artist. I ought to know these things.
19:43:46 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm a fan of reading manuals, but I'm unusual in that respect, I think
19:43:50 <elliott> Heh, I would imagine most pixel artists like to pretend font antialiasing doesn't even exist :)
19:43:58 <ais523> when people get new technology, I habitually ask them for the manual
19:44:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: You should just purchase better printers.
19:44:22 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:44:31 <evincar> Not really. AA is one of the fundamental techniques of PA.
19:44:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, I do purchase the good ones I mentioned
19:44:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: If it's inkjet it sucks.
19:45:01 <elliott> I need to obtain a nice little B&W laser printer sometime.
19:45:05 <Vorpal> elliott, inkjet yes because laser sucks at photo printing. Or did back when I bought it at least
19:45:19 <Vorpal> elliott, and I do much more photo printing than b&w text
19:45:27 <elliott> That's because you don't have a laser printer.
19:45:49 <elliott> ais523: thing I love: someone came in here to spam a Zionist documentary, and left, we didn't even notice
19:45:51 <elliott> *and we didn't even notice
19:46:00 <elliott> well, anti-Zionist or something
19:46:02 <pikhq> Color laser is *pricier*, but definitely higher quality.
19:46:03 <ais523> oh, I noticed someone came in here to spam
19:46:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, in this case I was thinking of my own HP multi-function printer, and my dad's simple hp printer. The latter is one of those that uses led to indicate failures
19:46:13 <ais523> and checked to see spambot vs. human, things seem to point towards human
19:46:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, does it work on photo paper though?
19:46:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: You'd need to check.
19:46:34 <Gregor> elliott, ais523: I noticed, didn't know what he advertised though :P
19:46:42 <ais523> my (link) replacement works just great against that sort of spam
19:46:45 <elliott> Gregor: We didn't say anything, then.
19:46:50 <ais523> (in fact, I came up with the idea during that gay porn troll incident)
19:46:58 <elliott> thing I hate about bash_completion:
19:47:02 <Gregor> elliott: I'm not part of that "we" :P
19:47:03 <elliott> it doesn't sync with globbing
19:47:16 <elliott> imo, if i tab and see a bunch of options, I should be able to type * and have it expanded to be all of them
19:47:33 <elliott> <Gregor> thebluestlight: People who come into IRC channels they've never been to before and immediately advertise some URL not related to the channel are rarely appreciated.
19:47:37 <elliott> well we didn't notice you :D
19:47:42 <evincar> elliott: Write a patch. :P
19:47:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: If you get a laser printer, expect it to last a couple decades.
19:47:45 <ais523> elliott: it seems to be only you who didn't notice
19:47:49 <elliott> <elliott> "Flat-screen optimised rendering" in the font configuration.
19:47:50 <ais523> most people noticed, just didn't care
19:47:55 <elliott> oh, that can be simplified further
19:47:59 <elliott> "Flat-screen optimised display"
19:48:00 <pikhq> (whereas inkjet, it's often cheaper to buy a new printer than to buy ink...)
19:48:03 <elliott> (in the font configuration, that is)
19:48:09 <ais523> elliott: "Optimise for flat screens"
19:48:10 <elliott> (not just "general flatscreen optimised display" :P)
19:48:27 <ais523> next, how are you going to explain the RGB vs. BGR issue? just assume RGB?
19:48:35 <elliott> ais523: *Optimise display for flat screens
19:48:55 <ais523> elliott: I was assuming that this would be in a section of display-related things
19:48:58 <elliott> ais523: i think that assuming RGB and not even exposing an interface to change it will be the obvious thing to do in a few years
19:49:06 <ais523> the adjustment was specifically to get rid of the "display" word
19:49:09 <elliott> ais523: because people are realising how silly different orders are
19:49:16 <ais523> elliott: well, it's more arbitrary
19:49:22 <elliott> if someone has such a display they almost certainly know
19:49:23 <ais523> there's no real reason to pick any particular order
19:49:26 <elliott> and they can click "Advanced" or whatever
19:49:40 <elliott> (although I dislike "Advanced" screens it fits in this case)
19:49:40 <ais523> I suppose RGB is winning by random drift + mimicking competitors
19:49:44 <elliott> ais523: right, so pick one consistently :P
19:49:57 <elliott> ais523: well, RGB already won for TVs looong ago, as the way to name the system
19:50:10 <elliott> saying "RGB is displayed as RGB subpixels" is a lot less silly than anything else
19:50:20 <elliott> ais523: although, I wonder if subpixel rendering looks best with a certain order?
19:50:31 <elliott> taking advantage of blue being the least visible colour or whatever (yeah, I didn't word that right; whatever)
19:50:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm. my printer is inkjet and is already 7 years old and works perfectly
19:51:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, okay, the plastic cover looks a bit faded from sunlight, but that is it.
19:51:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Surprising. Most of them stop working in a year.
19:51:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: And cost less than the ink.
19:51:38 <elliott> Vorpal: ink prices are carefully controlled so that ink is more expensive than the printer
19:51:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, it's a HP PSC 2175. Good quality I guess.
19:51:40 <ais523> (fun fact: when I zoom in on a window using super-mousewheel, the antialiasing becomes visible as it's scaled up pixel-wise; this is how I test that antialiasing is actually working)
19:51:46 <elliott> I suspect some illegal price fixing is involved, or something
19:51:50 <Vorpal> hm, might not be 7, could be 6 or 5
19:51:59 <elliott> because even the fanciest printer is cheaper than its ink
19:52:17 <elliott> ais523: it smooths the result here though, which makes it less clear
19:52:19 <Vorpal> elliott, third party ink refills then
19:52:19 <elliott> although you can set it not to
19:52:20 <ais523> elliott: I'm surprised people haven't cottoned onto the idea of buying throwaway printers just for the ink supply
19:52:28 <ais523> elliott: here too, but it's still clear enough
19:52:50 <ais523> (actually, some printer manufacturers have noticed that that's possible, and have been selling printers with nearly empty ink cartridges)
19:53:33 <elliott> the printer is still often cheaper
19:54:41 <pikhq> Which is not the case for toner.
19:54:42 <Vorpal> didn't kodak or someone claim they were going to start selling expensive printer/cheap ink or something?
19:54:53 <ais523> kodak have been advertising that incessantly recently
19:54:59 <Vorpal> ais523, is it true or?
19:55:10 <ais523> the mere fact that it's advertised doesn't make it true
19:55:14 <ais523> they did claim it, though
19:56:20 <Vorpal> ais523, "<ais523> the mere fact that it's advertised doesn't make it true" <-- ... that is why I asked if it was true or not
19:56:44 <ais523> printer manufacturers are like credit card companies, nowadays
19:56:55 <ais523> for all I know, they may do expensive printer / cheap ink then raise the price of the ink later
19:57:25 <Vorpal> ais523, with credit card companies do you mean like visa and mastercard, or the issuing companies (the banks that is)
19:57:42 <elliott> how do you send Ctrl+Alt+Fn to a VirtualBox VM?
19:58:42 <ais523> Fn only exists on laptops...
19:58:43 <Vorpal> ais523, also... um I fail to see how "raise the prise of ink later" is like a credit card company.
19:58:50 <ais523> Vorpal: interest rates
19:59:10 <Vorpal> ais523, those stay relatively fixed iirc? though I personally stick to debit cards.
19:59:32 <pikhq> elliott: Use the left Ctrl.
19:59:48 <pikhq> elliott: It's only the right Ctrl that VirtualBox grabs...
19:59:48 <elliott> pikhq: It changes my host Ubuntu's virtual desktop.
20:00:02 <pikhq> elliott: GOD DAMNED X11.
20:00:13 <Vorpal> I always found it annoying that it is impossible to send stuff like ctrl-alt-f2 to virtualbox.
20:00:16 <elliott> "Then in June, Sheikh Abdul-Mohsen al-Obeikan, an adviser to the royal court, issued a religious ruling saying unrelated women could mingle with an unrelated man if he drank her breast milk five times from a glass"
20:00:20 <Vorpal> or impossible as far as I can tell
20:00:24 <elliott> "That is the interpretation made by a number of muslim clerics and scholars as to what constitutes "adoption" -- if a person drinks a woman's breast milk, that woman is considered to be his/her mother. In this case, the man would be her son, and thus a family member, circumventing the taboo about not mixing unescorted with women who are not of your family."
20:00:36 <pikhq> elliott: No, X11 has full control of the keyboard when it's displaying.
20:00:41 <elliott> tl;dr to mingle with an unrelated woman, drink her breast milk five times from a glass; she is now your mother and it is okay.
20:00:42 <pikhq> elliott: It passes that through.
20:00:56 <elliott> pikhq: Then how come it works even when X is hung?
20:01:10 <pikhq> ... Oh right it does.
20:01:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes and no. Fn on my laptop is.... strange. It doesn't register straight away, and if you press fn+home (handled by hardware and/or bios to toggle keyboard lighting stuff) it never reaches X or even the kernel as far as I can tell
20:01:45 <pikhq> elliott: Shariah is ridiculous.
20:01:47 <elliott> ("In 2002, religious police prohibited girls from leaving a burning school in Jeddah because their heads weren’t veiled. Fourteen died in the incident, causing uproar in the kingdom.")
20:01:56 <elliott> pikhq: Ridiculous and horrific.
20:02:13 <pikhq> And often completely and utterly made up.
20:03:25 <ais523> there was that widely publicised story recently about a house that burnt down because its owner lived in a district that required a referendum for new public services, had repeatedly voted against a fire service to keep taxes down, and hadn't paid the fire service from the neighbouring district to put out fires on their house (at $75 a year)
20:05:11 <ais523> this seems to be a pretty pure expression of a free-market economy...
20:05:13 <pikhq> (The *requirement* that women be fully veiled, for instance, was invented last century. Previously, it was just a common thing in some Islamic traditions.)
20:05:27 <elliott> pikhq: ...right ctrl+alt+Fn actually works.
20:05:37 <elliott> Presumably VirtualBox intercepts it and goes "no, X11, I want that".
20:05:37 <ais523> (the fire service did turn up, but only for the purpose of preventing the fire spreading to the houses of people who did actually pay)
20:05:58 <elliott> ais523: now: did the owner of the house vote for the services? :p
20:06:15 <ais523> elliott: I doubt it, somehow
20:06:39 <elliott> ais523: still, I have to wonder how people can just stand around and let that happen
20:06:42 <ais523> I imagine that most people who voted in favour of a tax to pay for a fire service, also paid the $75 yearly for the adjacent district to cover their house
20:07:10 <elliott> pikhq: does the US have a public fire service everywhere?
20:07:54 <pikhq> elliott: Most places.
20:08:12 <pikhq> elliott: But not necessarily everywhere; it is done by the county government.
20:08:24 <elliott> pikhq: I almost thought you were no better than the Romans. :P
20:08:26 <pikhq> Or the city government.
20:08:32 <pikhq> So if people in the county are complete retards, they have no fire department.
20:08:40 <ais523> elliott: there's no federal fire service, but most states/districts/counties arrange something themselves
20:08:40 <elliott> (WHAT HAVE THEY DONE FOR US?)
20:09:08 <evincar> I had an idea a while back that might interest you.
20:09:13 <elliott> ais523: btw, you said you liked the coalition -- any thoughts on the plan to raise the tuition fee cap, which the lib dems explicitly said they would entirely oppose pre-election?
20:09:15 <pikhq> Still, *pretty much everywhere* you'll at least have a group of volunteers on call.
20:09:16 <ais523> centralising the fire service federally is something that Americans probably wouldn't even consider, it goes against the philosophy
20:09:27 <elliott> (a website registered by the lib dems got redirected to a youtube video where they stated so...)
20:09:46 <ais523> elliott: I'm confused, in that at least 2 and probably 3 of the major parties radically changed their opinion on tuition fees recently
20:10:06 <pikhq> ais523: Well, it goes against the original philosophy to have the federal government do just about anything that could reasonably be done by a single state.
20:10:08 <ais523> what surprises me more is that Labour were a huge advocate of tuition fees for the last 8 years or so, then suddenly started opposing them
20:10:09 <elliott> ais523: I doubt the Lib Dems want it.
20:10:16 <pikhq> ais523: And that got thrown out the window ages ago.
20:10:21 <elliott> ais523: I imagine they have just become accustomed to, well, taking it in the ass from the Tories.
20:10:27 <elliott> Like they've been doing the entire coalition.
20:10:37 <ais523> elliott: well, they have massively fewer MPs
20:10:49 <ais523> really, party politics doesn't make a whole lot of sense
20:11:02 <ais523> anyway, when you look at the alternative suggestions, they actually all come out equivalent, pretty much
20:11:26 <elliott> Hows about we just take a cue from the Europeans about ... uh, most things.
20:11:41 <ais523> the competing suggestions are tuition fee (which you're given a student loan for, so you lose a certain amount of money upfront but are given an equal amount, then have to pay a percentage of your income for years after that until you've paid it back)
20:11:50 * elliott is mauled by every reader of the Daily Mail
20:12:01 <ais523> and a graduate tax (after graduating, the government takes a precentage of your income years after that to fund your education)
20:12:11 <ais523> note: these two are, effectively, identical
20:12:17 <ais523> but nobody's noticed yet, and are bitching about which is better
20:12:25 <elliott> ctrl+alt+n instead of Fn just works in debian and not here
20:12:28 <ais523> so really, it's all just semantics
20:12:44 <elliott> ais523: You forgot "abolish tuition fees altogether".
20:12:52 <elliott> Or was that your non-alternative one?
20:13:14 <ais523> elliott: the advocates of that (lib dems last year, labour this year) advocated a graduate tax at the same time
20:13:30 <Vorpal> <ais523> centralising the fire service federally is something that Americans probably wouldn't even consider, it goes against the philosophy <-- please please don't tell me that it is privately owned...
20:13:32 <elliott> the europeans do none of that, don't they?
20:13:49 <elliott> Vorpal: there are mostly public services too, though, apparently
20:13:58 <elliott> <ais523> there was that widely publicised story recently about a house that burnt down because its owner lived in a district that required a referendum for new public services, had repeatedly voted against a fire service to keep taxes down, and hadn't paid the fire service from the neighbouring district to put out fires on their house (at $75 a year)
20:14:12 <Vorpal> elliott, wtf, so they will only try to put out a fire if you pay a subscription or something?
20:14:24 <elliott> Vorpal: That was how the original fire department operated.
20:14:24 <ais523> Vorpal: the district they were in didn't have a fire service
20:14:35 <ais523> the neighbouring district had a fire services, paid by taxes, for its own citizens
20:14:39 <Vorpal> elliott, but fires spread, so this make no sense
20:14:45 <elliott> Vorpal: They came to the house.
20:14:48 <ais523> and offered to cover houses in the district without a fire service for $75 per year per house
20:14:48 <elliott> Vorpal: They stopped it spreading anywhere else.
20:14:54 <elliott> (Because their paying customers were next door.)
20:15:00 <elliott> But they did not put out the fire on the house itself.
20:15:03 <Gregor> Yay for fire extortion!
20:15:05 <elliott> It was not owned by a paying customer.
20:15:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: They would often offer to purchase the house for a stipend and then put out the fire.
20:15:21 <Vorpal> this is just so completely backwards
20:15:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Your house appears to be burning down. Just call me Marcus Licinius Crassus. Now I have a proposition for you...
20:15:46 <Vorpal> what about wildfires then
20:16:17 * elliott wonders if Vorpal *actually* got that
20:16:36 <elliott> "One of his most lucrative schemes took advantage of the fact that Rome had no fire department. Crassus filled this void by creating his own brigade--500 men strong--which rushed to burning buildings at the first cry of alarm. Upon arriving at the scene, however, the fire fighters did nothing while their employer bargained over the price of their services with the distressed property owner. If Crassus could not negotiate a satisfactory price, his
20:16:36 <elliott> men simply let the structure burn to the ground, after which he offered to purchase it for a fraction of its value."
20:17:08 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounds familiar
20:17:20 <Vorpal> elliott, but even without knowing that, it was funny
20:18:22 <elliott> Small chance of weather, also death.
20:18:34 <pikhq> Oh, there actually is federal firefighting in the US. Wildfires are handled by FEMA.
20:18:43 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, fires are inherently a common issue. They spread, they can become wildfires in the right conditions
20:19:23 -!- h0x5f3759df has joined.
20:19:27 <Vorpal> I wonder why California gets so many wildfires each year... I mean, how can there be anything burnable left there by now?
20:19:28 <elliott> does anyone know a reliable way to sleep forever in a shell not using e.g. a loop of sleeps?
20:19:35 <elliott> "wait 1" unfortunately doesn't work, since wait isn't your child
20:19:45 <ais523> elliott: why would he offer to purchase the house after it had already burnt down?
20:19:54 <h0x5f3759df> Is this a programming channel of esoteric languages ?
20:19:56 <Vorpal> elliott, hm why do you want to do this?
20:20:03 <elliott> h0x5f3759df: Well, on an on-topic day.
20:20:12 -!- Agentorange has joined.
20:20:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Curiosity. Also as a thing that could go last in an .xinitrc.
20:20:15 <Vorpal> elliott, and the obvious way is to just leave the prompt there, waiting for input :P
20:20:21 <ais523> hmm, is PL/I esoteric?
20:20:27 <Vorpal> elliott, then the shell is just sleeping, waiting for IO
20:20:29 <pikhq> ais523: Property is valuable.
20:20:39 <elliott> PL/I is probably crazy but not likelily esoteric
20:20:46 <elliott> hmm, how do you spell likelily?
20:20:47 <Vorpal> elliott, in .xinitrc it would be trickier
20:20:57 <ais523> elliott: the word is "likely"
20:20:59 -!- Agentorange has left (?).
20:21:00 -!- h0x5f3759df has left (?).
20:21:01 <Vorpal> elliott, just make it exec a short 3-line C program that just sleeps?
20:21:07 <Vorpal> elliott, or exec the session manager or such
20:21:11 -!- ssice has joined.
20:21:16 <evincar> Aww, I was going to compliment h0x5f3759df on his choice of username. :(
20:21:40 <ais523> is that... a hexadecimal floating point number?
20:21:59 <evincar> Yes, it's the magic fast square root.
20:22:17 <ais523> PL/I doesn't look particularly insane to me
20:23:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:24:02 <elliott> read </dev/full is either dangerous
20:24:18 <Vorpal> elliott, why? Shouldn't it just give an IO error or something
20:24:33 <elliott> Vorpal: it hangs forever, except my system hung too, but it seems that was virtualbox
20:24:40 <elliott> Vorpal: feel free to try; if it does hang forever, mwahaha! i win!
20:24:41 <Vorpal> elliott, also /dev/full is an extremely silly IO device
20:24:43 <elliott> Vorpal: i think it, like, sucks up memory
20:28:21 -!- ssice has left (?).
20:32:58 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, propose in C how to sleep forever without looping a sleep?
20:35:11 <evincar> Spawn a thread, tell it to wait for a signal, then never send it the signal? Though that's basically the same...
20:36:36 <elliott> I don't mind using sleeping, just not long-sleep-in-a-loop
20:38:31 -!- Agentorange has joined.
20:38:49 <Agentorange> Why isn't there a room for the language BrainFuck?
20:39:28 <elliott> Agentorange: Esoteric programming languages.
20:39:31 <elliott> Of which Brainfuck is one.
20:39:54 <elliott> Vorpal: evincar: anyone: please assure Agentorange here.
20:39:59 <elliott> Agentorange: Brainfuck is an esoteric programming language.
20:40:04 <elliott> Agentorange: I quote Wikipedia:
20:40:08 <elliott> Agentorange: "The brainfuck programming language is an esoteric programming language noted for its extreme minimalism."
20:40:21 <elliott> "An esoteric programming language (sometimes shortened to esolang) is a programming language designed as a test of the boundaries of computer programming language design, as a proof of concept, or as a joke. There is usually no intention of the language being adopted for real-world programming. Such languages are often popular among hackers and hobbyists. This use of esoteric is meant to distinguish these languages from more popular programming l
20:40:21 <elliott> anguages." --also Wikipedia
20:40:34 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, wait for a signal...
20:40:35 <elliott> Agentorange: "Esoteric" does not mean "bad".
20:40:39 <elliott> That's frankly quite offensive.
20:40:45 <Agentorange> ..... Elliot, you realize I'm trolling hard right?
20:40:50 <elliott> There are many interesting, worthwhile esolangs.
20:40:58 <elliott> Agentorange: *Elliott, and you wouldn't believe how many idiots say shit like that.
20:41:00 <Agentorange> ...... You realize I'm trolling hard...... right?
20:41:10 <elliott> i wanted to believe you were joking
20:41:12 <pikhq> elliott: int pause(void); should do it, except for the bit about getting out of the sleep.
20:41:17 <elliott> but couldn't, because people are actually like that
20:41:46 <elliott> pikhq: for (;;) pause() is fine, I guess.
20:41:54 <elliott> I just didn't want for (;;) sleep(big) because that's boring.
20:41:59 <Agentorange> Elliott, I came in here to troll out of sheer boredom.... And my python work is finished, so I have nothing to do in my class for about four hours.
20:42:13 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, pause sleeps until you get a signal, and only ever returns if the signal handler returns.
20:42:15 <elliott> Agentorange: Are you going to stop trolling, or?
20:42:19 <Agentorange> So I figure "why not make other people equally miserable as I am"
20:42:28 <elliott> pikhq: Set pause as your signal handler.
20:43:05 <pikhq> elliott: Though you could just not set them and then it'll do sane things.
20:43:16 <elliott> Agentorange: Are you named after the herbicide/etc.?
20:43:44 <Agentorange> Sometimes, when I'm alone in my dorm, I like to think of all the ways that I can troll people. You see, I do not have a life. I am a registered sex offender in seventeen countries. I am a raging alcoholic. I once made a pornography named "Enraged Baboons Fudging Nipple Factories"....
20:43:57 <Agentorange> No, I'm actually named after my old high school robotics team (not a troll)
20:44:13 <elliott> Agentorange: Seventeen countries -- decrease that number and it's more realistic.
20:44:15 <evincar> Agentorange: You don't seem to have the heart to troll properly.
20:44:22 <elliott> Yeah Agentorange is an underachiever.
20:44:25 <elliott> He should go shoot himself right now.
20:44:32 <Agentorange> Evincar, first one might realize what a troll 'does'.
20:44:32 <elliott> (if he actually does this, I plead the whateverth)
20:44:42 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: evincar: anyone: please assure Agentorange here. <-- err, no this is not for brainfuck obviously. That would be on topic
20:44:42 <Agentorange> And when we have Elliott saying I should shoot myself.
20:45:24 <Agentorange> A troll is someone who does something negative or off-topic specifically to incipit negative feedback from the receiving party.
20:45:44 <Agentorange> So Evincar, there is no way to "troll properly".
20:46:07 <Agentorange> Theoretically, the greatest troll in the world could be someone who bangs his head on the keyboard repeatedly while pressing enter.
20:46:11 <elliott> I could note how trolling that nobody believes or gets angry about isn't actually trolling but THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO SAY
20:46:14 <evincar> Agentorange: Yeah, but you'd be more effective at it if you could commit to it.
20:46:15 <Agentorange> He'd be by definition, the greatest troll ever.
20:46:21 <elliott> You /are/ irritating, but for other reasons entirely.
20:46:31 <Agentorange> Evincar, I got someone telling me to shoot myself... in three minutes.
20:46:42 <evincar> And that's not what "incipit" means, by the way.
20:46:44 <Agentorange> Considering I am still holding your attention.
20:46:49 <evincar> Well, you're something to do, certainly.
20:46:51 <elliott> <evincar> Agentorange: You don't seem to have the heart to troll properly.
20:46:51 <elliott> <elliott> Yeah Agentorange is an underachiever.
20:46:51 <elliott> <elliott> He should go shoot himself right now.
20:47:01 <elliott> Context is for the weak and the suicidal!
20:47:31 <elliott> So by "I'm not trolling any more" you meant "I'm still trolling really terribly, I'm just going to be stupid and irritating about it".
20:47:40 <elliott> You can only troll people with something better to do.
20:47:42 <pikhq> Agentorange: A superior troll would lead us on for a while before noting that he is a Gay Nigger, and a member of the associated Association, in America.
20:47:46 <elliott> We're in #esoteric; figure it out.
20:47:53 <elliott> "the associated Association"
20:47:57 <Agentorange> So far, I have everyones undivided attention.
20:48:07 <elliott> Agentorange: Before you, nobody had anyone's attention.
20:48:10 <elliott> Because we weren't talking.
20:48:14 <elliott> This is merely amusing and slightly irritating.
20:48:20 <Agentorange> You make this seem like a span of two years.
20:48:22 <elliott> Agentorange: I hope that gives meaning to your life.
20:48:31 <elliott> Half-assed attention of about seven people online. Joy!
20:48:35 <Agentorange> Nothing else interests me due to the fact it's too remedial.
20:48:54 <Agentorange> I enjoy doing this, it gives me happiness.
20:49:03 <elliott> Agentorange: So how smart do you think you are?
20:49:21 <pikhq> Especially sad to suck at the only thing that gives you happiness.
20:49:26 <elliott> , he says, secretly pondering how much more intelligent than mechanical society he is
20:49:42 <Agentorange> Pikhq, I still have your attention and I've never addressed you till now. I think I'm doing pretty damn good.
20:49:56 <pikhq> I do believe this has hit metatrolling.
20:50:02 <elliott> Please stop capitalising people's nicks who aren't.
20:50:02 <pikhq> Which actually is slightly impressive.
20:50:08 <evincar> I just got the urge to write something in Lisp, but I can never pick an implementation. :P
20:50:16 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, he's decided that the best way to utilise his terrible trolling skills is to troll about his trolling.
20:50:19 <pikhq> evincar: Write your own. It's tradition!
20:50:23 <Gregor> Yeah, definitely an engine for a Web Treasure Hunt ... any given game would start you at some "hub" page, and you wander around the web looking for e.g. certain images, tags or text.
20:50:29 <elliott> It's amusing, like watching a retarded dog hits head against the wall repeatedly.
20:50:40 <Gregor> Other images, tags or text could be enemies that come flying at you for teh killzorz.
20:50:40 * elliott kicks Agentorange. Squeal!
20:50:49 <evincar> Well, class is over. Be back this evening.
20:51:02 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: This is a quit message.).
20:51:09 <elliott> pikhq: Is this approaching meta-meta-trolling? Whatever it is it's terrible.
20:51:23 <Agentorange> Elliott, yes..... yes..... let the butthurt flow through you.
20:51:33 <pikhq> Agentorange: Eh, not enough GNAA.
20:51:36 <Agentorange> Elliott, can you not see they've gone to different topics of conversation?
20:51:42 <elliott> I wonder if this is what constitutes a 4chan troll these days.
20:51:52 <Agentorange> Elliott, my point is, is that you are still talking to me.
20:51:59 <elliott> Agentorange: You think I have anything better to do?
20:52:17 <elliott> <Agentorange> Also, 4chan blows. ;; interesting statement for someone who's referencing a 4chan meme every .5 seconds
20:52:36 <Agentorange> So, you're basing the fact that I shouldn't think I'm so successful to hold your attention so long because you suck at finding things to do, and/or your mind is too feeble to do so.
20:52:50 <elliott> Relevant: http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/7/73/Trollface.png
20:53:09 <Agentorange> Ya'know, that trollface should be in a jpeg format.
20:53:25 <Agentorange> There's not multiple busy colours and a large resolution.
20:53:33 <elliott> Oh please, you're not even trying any more.
20:54:02 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, remember the Funge-98 group spec reading?
20:54:10 <elliott> pikhq: I'm thinkin' War and Peace now.
20:54:22 <Agentorange> And that verb didn't come from 4chan anyway.
20:54:27 <elliott> <Agentorange> Elliott, problem?
20:54:27 <elliott> <Agentorange> Elliott, yes..... yes..... let the butthurt flow through you.
20:54:32 <elliott> Trollface "problem?" is 4chan.
20:54:39 <elliott> And this, my friends, is War and Peace:
20:54:52 <elliott> "Well, Prince, so Genoa and Lucca are now just family estates of the
20:54:52 <elliott> Buonapartes. But I warn you, if you don't tell me that this means war,
20:54:52 <elliott> if you still try to defend the infamies and horrors perpetrated by that
20:54:53 <elliott> Antichrist--I really believe he is Antichrist--I will have nothing more
20:54:55 <elliott> to do with you and you are no longer my friend, no longer my 'faithful
20:54:57 <elliott> slave,' as you call yourself! But how do you do? I see I have frightened
20:54:59 <elliott> you--sit down and tell me all the news."
20:55:01 <elliott> It was in July, 1805, and the speaker was the well-known Anna Pavlovna
20:55:03 <elliott> Scherer, maid of honor and favorite of the Empress Marya Fedorovna. With
20:55:05 <elliott> these words she greeted Prince Vasili Kuragin, a man of high rank and
20:55:07 <elliott> importance, who was the first to arrive at her reception. Anna Pavlovna
20:55:09 <elliott> had had a cough for some days. She was, as she said, suffering from la
20:55:11 <elliott> grippe; grippe being then a new word in St. Petersburg, used only by the
20:55:15 <elliott> All her invitations without exception, written in French, and delivered
20:55:17 <elliott> by a scarlet-liveried footman that morning, ran as follows:
20:55:19 <elliott> "If you have nothing better to do, Count (or Prince), and if the
20:55:22 <elliott> prospect of spending an evening with a poor invalid is not too terrible,
20:55:23 <elliott> I shall be very charmed to see you tonight between 7 and 10--Annette
20:55:27 <elliott> "Heavens! what a virulent attack!" replied the prince, not in the
20:55:29 <elliott> least disconcerted by this reception. He had just entered, wearing an
20:55:31 <elliott> embroidered court uniform, knee breeches, and shoes, and had stars on
20:55:34 <elliott> his breast and a serene expression on his flat face. He spoke in that
20:55:35 <elliott> refined French in which our grandfathers not only spoke but thought, and
20:55:36 <Agentorange> You == [] told [] fuckin' told [x] Toldafuckin'saurus Wrecks
20:55:37 <elliott> with the gentle, patronizing intonation natural to a man of importance
20:55:39 <elliott> who had grown old in society and at court. He went up to Anna Pavlovna,
20:55:41 <elliott> kissed her hand, presenting to her his bald, scented, and shining head,
20:55:43 <elliott> and complacently seated himself on the sofa.
20:55:45 <elliott> "First of all, dear friend, tell me how you are. Set your friend's mind
20:55:47 <elliott> at rest," said he without altering his tone, beneath the politeness
20:55:51 <elliott> ected sympathy of which indifference and even irony could be
20:55:55 <Gregor> WebPlat doesn't work in Safari :(
20:55:55 <elliott> "Can one be well while suffering morally? Can one be calm in times like
20:55:57 <elliott> these if one has any feeling?" said Anna Pavlovna. "You are staying the
20:56:01 <elliott> "And the fete at the English ambassador's? Today is Wednesday. I must
20:56:03 <elliott> put in an appearance there," said the prince. "My daughter is coming for
20:56:07 <elliott> "I thought today's fete had been canceled. I confess all these
20:56:09 <elliott> festivities and fireworks are becoming wearisome."
20:56:11 <elliott> "If they had known that you wished it, the entertainment would have been
20:56:13 <elliott> put off," said the prince, who, like a wound-up clock, by force of habit
20:56:15 <elliott> said things he did not even wish to be believed.
20:56:17 <elliott> "Don't tease! Well, and what has been decided about Novosiltsev's
20:56:19 <elliott> dispatch? You know everything."
20:56:22 <elliott> "What can one say about it?" replied the prince in a cold, listless
20:56:23 <elliott> tone. "What has been decided? They have decided that Buonaparte has
20:56:25 <elliott> burnt his boats, and I believe that we are ready to burn ours."
20:56:27 <elliott> Prince Vasili always spoke languidly, like an actor repeating a stale
20:56:29 <elliott> part. Anna Pavlovna Scherer on the contrary, despite her forty years,
20:56:31 <elliott> overflowed with animation and impulsiveness. To be an enthusiast had
20:56:33 <elliott> become her social vocation and, sometimes even when she did not
20:56:35 <elliott> feel like it, she became enthusiastic in order not to disappoint the
20:56:37 <elliott> expectations of those who knew her. The subdued smile which, though it
20:56:39 <elliott> did not suit her faded features, always played round her lips expressed,
20:56:41 <elliott> as in a spoiled child, a continual consciousness of her charming defect,
20:56:43 <elliott> which she neither wished, nor could, nor considered it necessary, to
20:56:49 <elliott> pikhq: What are your thoughts on this opening?
20:56:51 <elliott> Gregor: Neither do zebras.
20:57:16 <pikhq> elliott: It's insufficiently Old English.
20:57:20 <pikhq> elliott: Do Beowulf.
20:57:23 <elliott> Gregor: In WebPlat, I'm totally thinkin': elements in the page just start moving around.
20:57:37 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, I'm thinking images smaller than the user become enemies.
20:57:37 <elliott> Gregor: You know that thing with Google?
20:57:41 <Agentorange> Go read "Julius Caesar" or any other Shakespeare epics.
20:57:42 <elliott> Gregor: Where all the things are effected by gravity?
20:57:57 <elliott> Gregor: And you can pick them up and stuff.
20:58:04 <elliott> Gregor: Make that happen to random parts of the page.
20:58:08 <elliott> No need to make it image-specific or anything.
20:58:18 <elliott> Gregor: OOH maybe some platforms are creaky and tip when you stand on them
20:58:33 <Gregor> elliott: I kiiiiinda want to avoid randomness as much as possible, and tipping is browser-dependent >_>
20:58:51 <elliott> Gregor: Basically, you want to turn an awesome platformer idea into a boring treasure hunt game.
20:59:05 <Gregor> That's just the only implementable thing :P
20:59:13 <elliott> Gregor: ESCAPE YOUR CONFINES
20:59:14 <Gregor> Making things attack you == good.
20:59:20 <Gregor> Making RANDOM things attack you == bad.
21:00:07 <pikhq> Agentorange: Hwæt! Wē Gār‐Dena in geār‐dagum / þēod‐cyninga þrym gefrūnon, / hū þā æðelingas ellen fremedon.
21:00:09 <Gregor> I do suck at NetHack :P
21:01:05 -!- boscop has joined.
21:01:11 <elliott> Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
21:01:11 <elliott> þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
21:01:11 <elliott> hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
21:01:11 <elliott> Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
21:01:12 <elliott> monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
21:01:14 <elliott> egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
21:01:16 <elliott> feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
21:01:18 <elliott> weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
21:01:20 <elliott> oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
21:01:24 <elliott> ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
21:01:26 <elliott> gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!
21:01:28 <elliott> ðæm eafera wæs æfter cenned,
21:01:30 <elliott> geong in geardum, þone god sende
21:01:32 <elliott> folce to frofre; fyrenðearfe ongeat
21:01:36 <elliott> þe hie ær drugon aldorlease
21:01:38 <elliott> lange hwile. Him þæs liffrea,
21:01:40 <elliott> wuldres wealdend, woroldare forgeaf;
21:01:42 <elliott> Beowulf wæs breme (blæd wide sprang),
21:01:44 <elliott> Scyldes eafera Scedelandum in.
21:01:46 <elliott> boscop is so confused right now.
21:04:38 <cpressey> < h0x5f3759df> PL/I guys here ? <-- WHY YES, I HAVE PROGRAMMED IN PL/I!
21:04:50 <Gregor> cpressey: That's some scary crap, man ...
21:06:27 <elliott> Is there a way to disown a process in *nix such that it becomes parented by someone N steps up from you?
21:06:34 <Gregor> Hmm, OK, it actually does work on Safari ... it just didn't the first time ... weird.
21:06:35 <elliott> You have foo with-parent bar with-parent quux.
21:06:35 <cpressey> < Agentorange> Theoretically, the greatest troll in the world could be someone who bangs his head on the keyboard repeatedly while pressing enter.
21:06:41 <elliott> You want to start asdf and make quux the parent.
21:06:44 <elliott> But quux has parent fjgdfgdfgj.
21:07:10 <pikhq> Christine O'Donnell: a candidate for Congress that's too dumb to realise that seperation of church and state is, in fact, in the Constitution.
21:07:23 <cpressey> < pikhq> I do believe this has hit metatrolling.
21:07:29 <pikhq> Namely, the First Amendment. When mentioned, she thought this was a joke.
21:08:38 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miwSljJAzqg She's apparently fundamentally a moron.
21:10:25 <cpressey> Perhaps she is trolling Congress. Oh, if only.
21:10:32 <elliott> pikhq: Do you use virtual desktops? :|
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21:13:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:14:00 <cpressey> Does your nose run and your feet smell? You're built upside-down!
21:14:10 <elliott> cpressey: ...why did you say that.
21:14:26 -!- tombom_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:14:36 -!- tombom has joined.
21:14:39 <cpressey> I was in an "extremely old joke" mood?
21:14:41 <pikhq> The only thing giving me hope in humanity is that Christine O'Donnel appears to have a similar chance to winning as my cat.
21:24:06 <elliott> pikhq: Got a copy of Grey Mist to hand?
21:24:40 <pikhq> elliott: Would you like sprunge or a torrent? :P
21:25:20 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/XLdT
21:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, virtual desktops, do you want to know if I use them or not?
21:25:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I do have them enabled, but yeah I don't ever use them
21:26:01 <Vorpal> I never find them useful
21:26:44 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, actually, make that: once / year if also a blue moon.
21:27:02 <Vorpal> I think I used virtual desktops... twice in the past 3 years. and only for short periods of time
21:27:08 <cpressey> I use them constantly you don't care ok bye
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21:27:26 <elliott> pikhq: Got the gtkrc? iirc it had some fix in it
21:28:43 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, no idea what that fix was.
21:28:48 <pikhq> I certainly don't have it handy.
21:29:01 <elliott> pikhq: WHAT YOU MEAN YOU DON'T USE GREY MIST :P
21:29:16 <pikhq> elliott: No, I mean I've just got a literally ordinary .gtkrc-2.0
21:29:27 <elliott> pikhq: Seriously? What lines?
21:29:29 <pikhq> include "/home/pikhq/.themes/GreyMist/gtk-2.0/gtkrc"
21:29:32 <pikhq> include "/home/pikhq/.gtkrc.mine"
21:29:39 <pikhq> ~/.gtkrc.mine does not exist.
21:30:10 <elliott> I'll have to find it in the logs sometime.
21:30:46 <Vorpal> elliott, want me to search?
21:31:15 <Vorpal> elliott, what should I search for, sql like syntax accepted
21:31:32 <elliott> Vorpal: %GreyMist% or %Grey Mist%
21:31:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:31:50 <Vorpal> elliott, and will it contain an URL or such?
21:32:00 <Vorpal> elliott, since you are looking for a fix
21:32:20 <elliott> pikhq: Ooh, I forgot I did non-colour-related things to it.
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21:32:31 <elliott> pikhq: (The menus have no outer margins, so it's more nicely tightly-packed.)
21:33:15 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/aebX
21:33:33 <elliott> 1773779 | 2010-08-30 02:25:03 | alise_ | | | 0 | gtk-theme-name="GreyMist"
21:33:38 <elliott> pikhq: That's it. Put that above the include line.
21:33:39 <Vorpal> elliott, timestamps are in UTC
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21:33:43 <elliott> That will make Qt applications work.
21:34:08 <elliott> Probably it should be in the actual thing, but eh.
21:34:24 <Vorpal> elliott, report a bug then?
21:34:53 <Vorpal> elliott, yes against greymist, whoever maintains it
21:35:19 <Vorpal> elliott, screenshot of it?
21:35:21 <pikhq> elliott: Qt applications actually work just fine here.
21:35:29 <elliott> Implementation: Elliott Hird
21:35:37 <elliott> Vorpal: You know the Mist theme?
21:35:52 <Vorpal> elliott, the one that you refused to call boxy right?
21:36:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Everywhere where that's blue -- selections and in checkboxes and the like -- imagine grey. Also, imagine that the menus have no outer margins, just so that if you highlight the top menu element the selected shading goes all the way to the borders. (That's a minor space-saving and aesthetic detail.)
21:36:35 <pikhq> elliott: Shouldn't the theme name be in the GreyMist gtkrc?
21:36:39 <Gregor> Bleh, wish JS had an event that fired whenever an element moved or was resized.
21:36:40 <elliott> tl;dr it's mist for people who cannot stand even the slightest bit of FLASHY BLUE BLING
21:36:45 <elliott> pikhq: yeah, that's what I'm thinking
21:36:55 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, I definitely think I wouldn't like it.
21:37:22 <Vorpal> elliott, as for ~/.gtkrc-2.0, I don't seem to have that file
21:37:34 <elliott> pikhq: Come to think of it, certain interface elements could do with a slightly darker border. Or at least a larger one.
21:37:40 <elliott> pikhq: Sometimes selection boxes blend in a bit.
21:37:47 <pikhq> Okay, seems not. When I start a Qt app from the command line, I get:
21:37:51 <pikhq> QGtkStyle was unable to detect the current GTK+ theme.
21:38:02 <elliott> That is preventing Grey Mist awesomeness from permeating your Qtspace.
21:38:15 <elliott> (Qtspace: a realm where everyone is cute.)
21:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, err, why doesn't it just read the theme from gtk?
21:38:48 <elliott> Because it needs the name to find the gtkrc or whatever.
21:38:58 <elliott> It should probably just parse the gtkrc directly, includes and all, but *eh*
21:39:04 <elliott> I should really specify the theme name anyway.
21:39:15 <cheater99> Gregor: ondrag??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
21:39:26 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm, LXDE appears to have one or two good components.
21:39:41 <elliott> pikhq: lxpanel is like fbpanel but with some bug-ish things tweaked and working in-program configuration.
21:39:58 <pikhq> elliott: It doesn't end up actually following the include. Just the actual gtkrc.
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21:47:32 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: for logreading reference, the company wine/debian/ubuntu were referring to is Blizzard
21:47:58 * oerjan thinks grepping for his nick will be enough logreading today.
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21:52:24 <Vorpal> elliott, where is that gtkrc file?
21:52:31 <Vorpal> elliott, "find ~ -name .gtkrc-2.0" returns nothing for me...
21:53:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, where were they referring to it?
21:55:52 <Vorpal> oh found it by fuzzy grepping
21:56:22 <oerjan> in our logs? i didn't manage to find it myself :D
21:56:34 <Vorpal> 2010-10-18 12:23:27 +0200 <ais523>hmm, amusing changelog entry (Ubuntu bumping the version of Wine): "Many more applications work, especially those from companies named after particularly cold weather events"
21:56:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, I presume it refers to that
21:57:07 <Vorpal> oerjan, did you ask about it, or was elliott just highlighting you at random?
21:57:58 <oerjan> well i did ask, but i _definitely_ cannot find that :D
21:58:36 * oerjan thought he used the verb "seconds"
21:58:59 <oerjan> or wait maybe that was for another question
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21:59:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, you mean I didn't find the original statement it referred to!?
22:00:00 <Vorpal> that seems highly unlikely
22:00:09 <Vorpal> that something else could fit I mean
22:00:31 <oerjan> you did. but neither you nor i found where i asked about it.
22:00:54 <oerjan> also, the "seconds" may have been a completely different matter.
22:01:38 <Vorpal> meh, not interested enough to grep further
22:01:46 <oerjan> i thought i was seconding a question by cheater at some point...
22:02:10 <oerjan> it is of course not _entirely_ unknown for the logs to contain gaps these days :D
22:02:42 <Vorpal> oerjan, you did second him
22:02:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, also I'm using personal logs here
22:02:58 <Vorpal> 2010-10-18 14:18:24 +0200 <oerjan><cheater> ais523: what does that mean?
22:02:58 <Vorpal> 2010-10-18 14:18:56 +0200 <oerjan>i second that question.
22:03:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, and indeed it was soon after what ais said
22:03:34 <Vorpal> oerjan, mystery solved. But is it not in clog logs?
22:03:50 <Vorpal> if so yeargh, need to work on that log merging script, which is near impossible
22:03:59 <oerjan> 05:10:22 --- join: oerjan (oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no) joined #esoteric
22:04:00 <oerjan> 05:18:47 <oerjan> * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation
22:04:11 <oerjan> i think it should have been _between those two
22:04:41 <Vorpal> 2010-10-19 23:03:35 +0200 <oerjan>05:18:47 <oerjan> * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation
22:04:54 <Vorpal> 2010-10-18 13:58:28 +0200 +oerjan (oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no) has joined #esoteric
22:05:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, you have broken timestamps above then
22:05:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, I mean, completely different days!
22:05:33 <oerjan> those are clog timestamps, i _thought_ those were 9 hours different
22:05:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, look at the relative difference between:
22:05:47 <Vorpal> <oerjan> 05:10:22 --- join: oerjan (oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no) joined #esoteric
22:05:47 <Vorpal> <oerjan> 05:18:47 <oerjan> * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation
22:05:51 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> 2010-10-18 13:58:28 +0200 + oerjan (oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no) has joined #esoteric
22:05:54 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> 2010-10-19 23:03:35 +0200 <oerjan> 05:18:47 <oerjan> * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation
22:06:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, see, that doesn't match at all
22:06:16 <oerjan> i didn't check the date :D
22:06:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, and even without date it doesn't match
22:07:36 -!- augur has joined.
22:09:11 <oerjan> Vorpal: um i tell you clogs timezone is 9 hours different from ours
22:09:24 <oerjan> in fact i _did_ find it on the correct date
22:09:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes but that wasn't what I said
22:09:34 <oerjan> 05:18:49 <oerjan> <cheater> ais523: what does that mean?
22:09:34 <oerjan> 05:19:20 <oerjan> i second that question.
22:10:06 <Vorpal> 05:18:47-05:10:22 << (2010-10-19 23:03:35)- (2010-10-18 13:58:28)
22:10:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, that is what I'm saying
22:10:22 <oerjan> my error was thinking it was a /me, and therefore searching for "seconds" instead of "second"
22:10:37 <Vorpal> 05:18:47-05:10:22 << (23:03:35)- (13:58:28) also holds true
22:18:39 <oerjan> Vorpal: the 23:03:35 is from _just now_, i fail to see how it is relevant to anything
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22:28:24 <elliott> <Vorpal> oerjan, and indeed it was soon after what ais said
22:28:59 <elliott> Why don't calculators support adding time?
22:29:07 <elliott> I suck at doing base 60 addition in my head.
22:29:18 <elliott> But nothing as convenient as "3:43 + 14:34".
22:29:58 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/Tt2qr.png WARNING: This route crosses through France.
22:30:49 <olsner> haha, it's a PNG, that's why it can't zoom and pan the map
22:32:10 * oerjan wonders why it drives to barcelona and then retraces its steps for a while
22:32:28 * elliott wonders if everyone has missed the joke or is deliberately ignoring it
22:33:01 <oerjan> hm i guess the stops were explicitly asked
22:33:42 <elliott> "That's actually a pretty safe assumption at any time IMO. I'm willing to bet you have a greater than 50% chance of having some sort of strike or protest significantly impede your progress through France at any given time."
22:33:50 <elliott> Apparently "It generally has to do with passing through a country that you don't stop in to get to a destination on the other side." in actuality
22:34:12 <oerjan> except in this case it _does_ stop in paris
22:36:48 <elliott> oerjan: yes, but it goes through france twice
22:36:51 <oerjan> hm maybe it's the stretch from Monaco to Venice which triggers it
22:36:52 <elliott> and the one it warns about is one not asked for
22:38:09 <oerjan> and i guess the multiple countries are for the stretch from Venice to Belgrade
22:39:05 <oerjan> passing through both Slovenia and Croatia
22:48:21 <elliott> What's the trick to make non-xft programs work with xft again?
22:49:43 <elliott> pikhq: It doesn't seem to work.
22:49:54 <elliott> and it just... displays as the default font.
22:50:21 <elliott> pikhq: I guess the program has to have actual xft code, huh.
22:52:13 <elliott> pikhq: It is looking more and more like LeanDE will have to have its own WM.
22:54:56 <elliott> pikhq: Which is... not good.
22:55:14 <elliott> It's ignoring my settings entirely.
22:55:46 <elliott> pikhq: ARGH stupid piece of shit typo in the manpage had me setting the wrong resource.
22:57:58 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, uh... give me one reason not to write LeanWM.
22:58:05 <elliott> Being "lwm without the old cruft".
23:03:19 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:03:31 <elliott> http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/cannam/codec.html i like the look of this
23:08:19 <elliott> has anyone here used nextstep / windowmaker?
23:09:10 <pikhq> elliott: You won't finish it.
23:09:25 <elliott> pikhq: Well, I will; the desire to create Kitten is pretty unstoppable now.
23:09:37 <elliott> pikhq: Writing a window manager isn't exactly what I'd call "difficult".
23:14:25 <elliott> catseye: you there? can i blab random ui thoughts? >_>
23:19:22 <Gregor> I just made an ENORMOUS improvement to WebPlat!
23:19:26 <Gregor> The runner is now me :P
23:26:17 <elliott> Gregor: Please, please give a textbox with the bookmarklet in.
23:26:21 <elliott> I cannot view source any more.
23:26:29 <Gregor> The bookmarklet doesn't change every time.
23:26:40 <Gregor> It only changed the once for jQuery.
23:28:55 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webplat/
23:29:43 <elliott> Gregor: You brokered reddit again.
23:29:52 <elliott> I start on the right margin of the page, held on by an iframe.
23:30:00 <elliott> Gregor: Because of an opera advert, apparently.
23:30:10 <Gregor> Hm, I should try it without ABP :P
23:30:51 <elliott> Gregor: E_DOYOUSEE"REDDITORSDOWNLOADINGOPERA'SBROWSER"_AD?
23:31:27 <Gregor> I can even walk on it.
23:31:33 <elliott> Gregor: You don't start on the right of it?
23:31:48 <elliott> Gregor: The player looks like MJ in Moonwalker.
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23:32:26 <Gregor> elliott: E_WORKSFORME in Chrom(ium) too.
23:32:46 <elliott> You didn't even draw it, id you? :P
23:32:59 <Gregor> elliott: I just added the hat and tie.
23:33:15 <elliott> oerjan: It's an ice letter?
23:33:18 <elliott> Gregor: I'm talking about the way it walks.
23:33:36 <Gregor> I'm power-jogging damn it!
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23:34:01 <elliott> javascript:(function(){var%20script=document.createElement('script');script.src='http://codu.org/webplat/jquery.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(script);script=document.createElement('script');script.src='http://codu.org/webplat/webplat.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(script);})()
23:34:59 <elliott> Gregor: I am totally doing this on codu.
23:35:06 <elliott> Gregor: HOW DO YOU OPEN THE MENUS WHEN YOU ARE A PERSON
23:35:38 <Gregor> I can't even handle previously-invisible elements becoming new platforms.
23:35:44 <Gregor> Since the DOM doesn't give me anything useful for that.
23:35:52 <elliott> I just fell down a screen of your hats.
23:36:12 <elliott> Gregor: It phalluses^Wfails at http://choosemyhat.com/.
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23:36:15 <elliott> The wrapper div or whatever.
23:36:26 <elliott> Also, who the hell actually votes on that?
23:38:16 <oerjan> while investigating this question i found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mid-Importance_Hat_Fetishism_articles
23:39:11 <fizzie> "Categories: B-Class Hat Fetishism articles | Mid-Importance Hat Fetishism articles | Start-Class Republicans Named John articles | High-Importance Republicans Named John articles"
23:39:55 <elliott> fizzie: Please, please, please tell me that's real.
23:40:55 <oerjan> well the page is, not so much the categories :D
23:41:37 <fizzie> Someone's user-page, also, so it's only arguably real.
23:43:53 <elliott> pikhq: Can I blab my current ideas for WMery?
23:48:52 <elliott> cpressey: YOU CANNOT FIGHT DESTINY
23:49:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:49:27 <cpressey> elliott: you can start by telling me what it is OH HI Mathnerd314
23:50:03 <elliott> cpressey: i.e. what will probably be in LeanDE which will be the main-supported-ish GUI for Kitten
23:50:20 <elliott> Its name is probably LeanWM because I'm an uncreative bastard.
23:50:51 <Sgeo> Christine O'Donnell is a moron
23:51:20 <elliott> Sgeo: I think she's been grossly misrepresented.
23:51:24 <elliott> People are blowing the whole witch thing OUT OF PROPORTION.
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23:51:29 <elliott> What matters is her policies.
23:51:39 <elliott> that the US needs some conservatism
23:51:45 <elliott> after the disaster that the Obama administration has been.
23:51:52 * Sgeo doesn't give a fuck about whether or not she's a wiitch
23:52:04 <Sgeo> Or even a witch
23:52:41 <Sgeo> It would be almost better if she were. Maybe she'd have a slight nugget of a hint of the importance of the First Amendment
23:53:04 <elliott> Sgeo: Nobody is proposing to illegalise other religions. Even if you are a witch.
23:53:23 <elliott> The Christian sociocultural context which the US exists entirely within is already strong; making it stronger is just an acceptance of identity.
23:54:13 <elliott> Sgeo: Do you have any criticisms of her actual policies?
23:54:32 * oerjan recalls a story from some years back just before halloween pointing out that in the UK while they had repealed laws against _being_ a witch, it was still illegal to dress up as one
23:55:02 * Sgeo decides to look on her website
23:56:12 <oerjan> well norway is enlightened as usual, as our royal princess was recently accused of being a witch.
23:56:35 <oerjan> (she's way into talking with angels and stuff)
23:57:29 <Sgeo> "Strongly believes in protecting the sanctity of life at ALL stages." I ... sympathize with the pro-life stance, but am scared of women hurting themselves with illegal abortions
23:57:50 <elliott> ...okay, I'm dropping out of my bullshit confuse-Sgeo character now
23:58:04 <elliott> Sgeo: how on *earth* do you sympathise with the utterly unscientific pro-life religious nutjob stance?
23:58:23 <elliott> you do realise that the US is basically singular in considering it even remotely serious?
23:58:38 <elliott> apart from bass-ackwards religious countries
23:59:12 <oerjan> elliott: i was about to declare poe's law on you a bit ago, then thought "nah, no way _he_ is serious about meaning that"
23:59:17 <Sgeo> Even though the fetus isn't a person, it has a very good chance of becoming a person if not interfered with
23:59:33 <elliott> oerjan: i do find it interesting that Sgeo had no idea what her policies were though :)
23:59:39 <elliott> Sgeo: interestingly enough, so do stars.
23:59:43 <Gregor> (Given proper conditions)
23:59:50 <elliott> Both masturbation and staricide are immoral!
23:59:59 <cpressey> So do infants, one could argue
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00:00:52 <Gregor> I'm thinkin' abortion should be legal up to the age of 2.
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00:01:38 <oerjan> <elliott> apart from bass-ackwards religious countries <-- you do realize that by your probably strict standards that is the _majority_ of countries, right? :D
00:01:49 <Sgeo> What is the distinction between pre-birth abortion and post-birth abortion. I can see making a distinction in the womb, at some point in the brain's development.
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00:02:18 <elliott> oerjan: sure, but not the majority of Western civilisations
00:02:29 <elliott> by which i also basically include Japan, S. Korea and stuff :P
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00:02:43 <elliott> oerjan: also most of those countries are small and have little power.
00:03:00 <elliott> oerjan: i mean, i can't imagine any country in the EU taking pro-life seriously.
00:03:25 <Gregor> Gotta birth 'em to eat 'em.
00:03:37 <oerjan> no, but several catholic countries are
00:03:50 <oerjan> (including the two i mentioned)
00:04:33 <Gregor> Not only that, but trees are your cousins. Paper is killing your family.
00:04:41 <oerjan> ireland still has prohibition against abortion _in the constitution_, afair.
00:05:13 <elliott> ok ireland, but ireland are fucking crazy :D
00:05:33 <Gregor> Yeah, who doesn't want to be part of the UK?
00:05:33 <elliott> anyway what i'm saying is that you should think very hard before considering the pro-life position reasonable if you're in the US.
00:06:02 <Gregor> I formed the Reformed Tory Party of the United States just to encourage us to rejoin the UK!
00:06:16 <elliott> Gregor: I approve so hard.
00:06:21 <elliott> THE SUN NEVER SETS ON THE OBAMA EMPIRE
00:08:27 <oerjan> <elliott> ok ireland, but ireland are fucking crazy :D <-- you're going to end up with No True Scotsman pretty soon :D
00:08:59 <elliott> i really meant "look at any country with a political climate you consider relatively sane, note how pro-life isn't taken seriously there, rinse, lather, repeat, consider biases introduced by own cultural setting"
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00:13:40 <pikhq> oerjan: The "pro-lifers" *here* are a bit nuts. I can't make a judgement about those elsewhere.
00:14:08 <pikhq> But here, they simultaneously are opposed to abortion and in favor of the death sentence.
00:14:48 <Gregor> You have to give people a chance to /earn/ their death.
00:15:22 <pikhq> elliott: For what it's worth: I see some issues with abortion, but see *significantly more* issues with them not being legal.
00:15:45 <elliott> Proper birth control should of course be heavily promoted.
00:15:50 <elliott> pikhq: Out of curiosity, what issues do you see with abortion?
00:16:04 <elliott> I understand it's not a particularly pleasant experience and one that should be avoided if possible, but apart from that...
00:16:06 <oerjan> "Currently, Polish society is one of the most pro-life in Europe."
00:16:20 <elliott> oerjan: not even polse consider Polish society sane :)
00:16:36 <Gregor> In undergrad (?) at some point a class (?) we watched some movie (?) about an abortion clinic before it was legal ...
00:16:42 <Gregor> That movie made me want to end female suffrage :P
00:17:02 <Gregor> I think ... I THINK that it was supposed to be pro-choice.
00:17:04 <pikhq> Rather dangerous, unpleasant, and it goes from not a big deal ethically to "what the *fuck*?" depending on the stage of pregnancy.
00:17:56 <pikhq> But straight-up banning it creates even more issues and solves nothing.
00:17:57 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah. I think the dangerous thing is basically personal choice, unpleasantry is... well, that or pregnancy. And yeah, there is always the debate about when it becomes able to feel pain.
00:18:24 <Gregor> "Feels pain" is a silly border anyway. Cows feel pain.
00:18:30 <Gregor> But they're sooooooo tasty.
00:18:46 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and if a pregnancy would ever result in a mother's death, I think it's a very grey area even in the later stages of pregnancy.
00:18:53 <oerjan> apparently the actual polish laws were made considerably stricter after the fall of communism.
00:19:01 <elliott> I mean -- would you save a person or a kitten?
00:19:07 <elliott> Substitute increasingly more intelligent animals for kitten, etc.
00:19:17 <pikhq> Personally, I feel the only way to "solve" it is, of course, to make it very unlikely that anybody would be in the position where an abortion would be an option they have to consider...
00:19:31 <pikhq> elliott: *Obviously* if it's a choice between infant and mother then fuck the infant.
00:19:52 <elliott> pikhq: Right. Now suppose the mother is ridiculously old. (Her pregnancy defies science.)
00:20:08 <pikhq> Birth control, reducing poverty, making giving a child up to adoption *incredibly easy*, etc.
00:20:16 <pikhq> elliott: HARD ISSUE.
00:20:30 <pikhq> elliott: But I'm leaning towards babby.
00:20:40 <elliott> pikhq: Conclusion: Fuck old people, they're not allowed to get pregnant until we solve mortality :P
00:20:41 <Gregor> How many mother-years = one baby-year? :P
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00:21:21 <oerjan> elliott: once we solve mortality, _no one_ will be allowed to get pregnant.
00:21:35 <elliott> oerjan: well until we solve scarcity.
00:21:38 <oerjan> "sorry, planet is full"
00:21:42 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, and also: I am quite against the death sentence. Unlike pro-lifers, who are pro-death in that case. :P
00:21:52 <oerjan> "sorry, galaxy is full". etc.
00:21:59 <elliott> oerjan: and solving mortality is so damn *hard* that it is incredibly likely scarcity will be solved something like hours afterwards.
00:22:08 <pikhq> oerjan: That's why we spawn universes.
00:22:17 <elliott> because i'm not exactly sure we humans can keep up with the universe trying to fuck with our lives :)
00:22:27 <pikhq> elliott: Entropy's a bitch.
00:22:36 <elliott> pikhq: entropy isn't remotely the problem
00:22:38 <oerjan> pikhq: "out of memory, simulation aborted"
00:22:46 <elliott> pikhq: consider a carefully-maintained computer made out of the most durable components
00:23:09 <elliott> pikhq: now build in some self-repairing capabilities. already it'll last *way* longer than our wetware.
00:23:23 <elliott> of course entropy is something we kinda have to solve
00:23:26 * Sgeo ponders trying Opera [again]
00:23:27 <pikhq> elliott: Sorry, entropy is guaranteed. And if we're talking about lasting infinitely long, it *will* become a problem.
00:23:30 <elliott> but we sort of have quite a few billion years to deal with that.
00:23:34 * Sgeo forgot why he ran from Opera last time
00:23:36 <elliott> pikhq: yes... but let's solve this one fisrt
00:23:49 <elliott> pikhq: methinks the many-more-times intelligent us may be somewhat better at solving entropy.
00:24:26 <pikhq> Okay, so we're not so much talking about *solving* mortality as we are about making life less short.
00:24:35 <pikhq> And with any luck, making it less brutish in the deal.
00:24:45 <elliott> pikhq: if we're talking about entropy, well
00:25:11 <elliott> pikhq: i'd consider "until entropy fucks us in the ass" a 99.999% solution to mortality in the short term.
00:25:20 <oerjan> short and brutish, what was the third one
00:26:20 <pikhq> elliott: Fair enough.
00:26:32 <pikhq> elliott: Gives us several billion years, at least.
00:26:38 <elliott> pikhq: what is rather more worrying is the possible finiteness of space.
00:26:52 <elliott> thus, finite possible configurations
00:27:02 <elliott> thus, a real, actual, unsolvable maximum lifespan
00:27:21 <elliott> pikhq: because ofc it must at one point repeat a state.
00:28:08 <pikhq> elliott: At best, we'll end up having Groundhog Day. At worst, well. Big Crunch?
00:28:28 <elliott> pikhq: groundhog day is so not a utopia.
00:28:49 <oerjan> well Groundhog eon. if it can happen we're probably already in it.
00:28:52 <elliott> pikhq: i also have serious problems with the typical naive idea of post-singularity life (see e.g. Prime Intellect, which is definitely a dystopia)
00:28:58 <oerjan> (had that idea years ago)
00:29:04 <pikhq> elliott: Anyways, as far as we know, the universe is expanding at an increasing rate.
00:29:07 <elliott> and it scares me way more than a little bit that Sgeo considers Prime Intellect's future to be a utopia...
00:29:17 <elliott> pikhq: as far as we know, everything is *moving apart* at an increasing rate
00:29:26 <elliott> which doesn't really help us as far as space goes, eh?
00:29:31 <pikhq> elliott: And, yeah, the problem with the singularity is that after it humans are *still fucking human*.
00:29:54 <elliott> pikhq: I was thinking more the absolute lack and irrelevance of personal development and achievement.
00:30:15 <pikhq> Also true. But we're still assholes.
00:30:55 <oerjan> pikhq: there is the possibility that some asocial tendencies are curable
00:31:43 <elliott> pikhq: in fact i think that as far as my limited human mind can estimate -- which is *not at all* -- the perfect singularity outcome in the short term would just be that it stops you *majorly* and irreversibly hurting people.
00:31:54 <oerjan> especially if you can redesign humans
00:32:02 <elliott> i.e. you can't stab someone to death.
00:33:54 * oerjan again considers the possibility that we are already in a post-singularity environment
00:34:26 <elliott> oerjan: see The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect (I will say no more)
00:36:55 <oerjan> i mean, if this world is actually some transcended being's idea of a _solution_ to "the absolute lack and irrelevance of personal development and achievement" you mentioned.
00:37:16 <elliott> oerjan: mmhmm. See The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect.
00:37:24 * oerjan is still rooting against solipsism :/
00:37:43 <oerjan> I CANNOT HEAR YOU LALALALA
00:38:23 <elliott> oerjan: it totally is relevant, if you can get past the zombie rape in the first chapter :P
00:38:31 <Sgeo> It's not rape!
00:38:43 <elliott> Thank you, Sgeo, for pointing out the obvious.
00:38:55 <oerjan> alas i'm suffering from sever tl;dr syndrome these days.
00:38:58 <elliott> The act as a whole is consented to. The torture within is very much *not* consented to at the time it is being done, even though it was agreed to beforehand.
00:39:17 <elliott> oerjan: when was the last time you read a novel? :p
00:39:33 <pikhq> elliott: I'm going to call it "very hard-core BDSM play".
00:39:52 <elliott> pikhq: In which pikhq stretches the power of the word "very" to its absolute limits.
00:40:39 <oerjan> i don't quite recall. hm do the ed stories count?
00:40:54 <elliott> pikhq: I think tvivat fbzrbar gur rdhvinyrag bs urebva nqqvpgvba ohg sbe *gurve bja oybbq*, chzcvat gurz jvgu fgrebvqf naq gura yrggvat mbzovr rwnphyngr fgneg gb *rng njnl ng gurve obql* is pretty much rape. Even if it was consented to beforehand :P
00:41:00 <elliott> oerjan: yes. that's a novel.
00:41:38 <elliott> oerjan: well, think of it as Prime Intellect Stories!
00:41:42 <elliott> the whole thing's ONE BIG PLOT ARC.
00:41:44 <pikhq> elliott: Good use of rot13.
00:42:00 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, now the only force stopping oerjan instinctively decoding it is laziness.
00:42:35 <oerjan> well i think squeamishness plays a part too.
00:42:50 <pikhq> elliott: With full consent, it's *probably* not rape.
00:42:56 <pikhq> elliott: Just insanely freaky.
00:42:59 <elliott> pikhq: ask that to Caroline-at-the-time :)
00:43:10 <elliott> if she can respond, which is doubtful
00:43:26 <elliott> oerjan: it is not actually written in a squeamish manner, it's a very unfetishy, dry portrayal of... well, *that*.
00:43:34 <elliott> it has character relevance though!
00:49:29 <elliott> The paramount of insane minimalism: http://cultofless.com/items
00:49:43 <elliott> Note that that is actually much longer than the list of things that person actually owns.
00:49:48 <elliott> Note the "sold" and "sell" columns.
00:50:10 <elliott> You sold your Bic Ballpoint pen. Congratulations, your life is so much fucking better.
00:50:20 <elliott> "Digg Bottle Opener $5 keep!"
00:51:59 -!- evincar has joined.
00:52:32 <elliott> Guys, I think evincar goes to RIT.
00:52:50 <elliott> I totally found this out by stalking him IRL.
00:53:11 <evincar> Or by looking at my connect/disconnect message?
00:53:23 <elliott> Well, your join message. Or that.
00:54:07 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:54:35 <evincar> My online identity is pretty closely tied to my real one.
00:54:46 -!- catseye has joined.
00:54:56 <elliott> Mine is only in name. Well, there is some outdated personal info somewhere but I think that's disappeared by now.
00:54:59 <oerjan> they were both kidnapped by a madman
00:55:05 <elliott> I would like a greater distance, or perhaps less.
00:55:10 <elliott> Half-lifes are not for me.
00:55:26 <elliott> pikhq: catseye: Clearly you both want to know about the perfect WM design ever.
00:56:13 <catseye> * oerjan again considers the possibility that we are already in a post-singularity environment
00:56:23 <elliott> evincar: But... but you're not in the Initiated Circle of Elliott's Environment Devotees.
00:56:36 <catseye> elliott: thanks, but i already have my own ideas
00:56:45 <elliott> catseye: BUT MINE ARE BETTER
00:56:53 <elliott> catseye: And you will see that when you use Kitten
00:57:04 <elliott> Admittedly I have few ideas, but.
00:59:40 <catseye> hybrid windows and tiles. multiselect windows, select how they should tile together, and you can treat that as a single window. also, a tile can contain windows.
01:00:04 <catseye> the last part is mainly to support having multiple virtual workspaces in a tile
01:00:18 <elliott> catseye: well that's quite close to some of my ideas for my *perfect* WM
01:00:26 <elliott> catseye: you know how you wanted infinite virtual desktops?
01:00:51 <catseye> not infinite, just a lot -- and more important to make them easy to navigate (hard problem though, at least for me)
01:01:01 <elliott> catseye: well my idea makes it infinite coolely
01:01:14 <elliott> catseye: imagine a regular desktop and your taskbar below or whatever
01:01:28 <elliott> but with no window entries, maybe
01:01:43 <elliott> catseye: now imagine you can modifier key + scroll down to *zoom out* of this desktop
01:01:52 <elliott> then, you can move your mouse around to traverse an infinite space
01:01:57 <elliott> catseye: and see the windows zoomed out
01:02:03 <elliott> click anywhere (there's a rectangle showing what this will zoom into)
01:02:12 <elliott> except zoomed-out is a distinct mode from zoomed-in
01:02:29 <catseye> sort of a levelled-ZUI instead of continuous-
01:02:31 <elliott> catseye: oh, and there's a key combo like OS X Expose or whatever, that just shows all the windows you have in total tiled
01:02:40 <elliott> catseye: yes; you can still zoom out further though
01:02:44 <elliott> for when you have 1,000 windows open :)
01:02:47 <elliott> <elliott> catseye: oh, and there's a key combo like OS X Expose or whatever, that just shows all the windows you have in total tiled
01:02:51 <elliott> which zooms in on the right place
01:03:03 <elliott> oh, and you could zoom out while dragging a window obviously
01:03:18 <catseye> zooming out would be one way to navigate the whole virtual thing, i haven't thought about it
01:03:59 <catseye> i mainly want the tiles so that some windows can stick around always, sanely (chat windows)
01:04:23 <catseye> they could live in a smallish tile on the bottom, while everything else pans and zooms
01:04:29 <elliott> catseye: anyway, my perfect-but-one-or-two design is basically just a refinement of the current crop of minimalist floating WMs :P
01:04:42 <elliott> i think i might want window controls on the side
01:05:03 <elliott> also, obvious stuff like "of course the close button goes *opposite* the iconify/maximise buttons, so you don't have to worry about misclicks"
01:05:14 <elliott> probably ditch window titles, don't need them
01:06:26 <elliott> catseye: did you ever use wm2?
01:06:36 <elliott> it's a curious little old WM.
01:06:38 <catseye> ctrl+mumble+right click could pop up a "control panel" for the focused window, which shows its title, close/min/max/etc gadgets, etc
01:06:55 <elliott> meh, i'll probably have some sort of window border at all times
01:07:05 <elliott> just a little grey slab to the left or right
01:07:18 <elliott> close on the top, iconify/maximise on the bottom
01:07:31 <elliott> definitely alt+right click to resize though
01:07:36 <elliott> it's horrific that that isn't in many existing WMs :)
01:07:56 <elliott> catseye: http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/wm2/wm2-pic.gif
01:08:00 <elliott> note zany floating window decorations
01:08:31 <elliott> it's notable, though, for being perhaps the only piece of software designed for minimalist usability in those days
01:08:38 <elliott> Sgeo: that has nothing to do with macs at all?
01:08:45 <Sgeo> </not-serious>
01:09:09 <Sgeo> Although the ... title stripes look vaguely old mac like
01:09:22 <elliott> ...yeah, they're grey and have a square.
01:09:28 <catseye> yeah i was wondering the date based on nedit and xv being the apps...
01:10:05 <elliott> catseye: it was last released 1997 btw
01:10:10 <elliott> well it's in the evilwm screenshot, but
01:10:24 <elliott> catseye: the guy still uses wmx, which is wm2 + virtual desktops + xft + other violations of his zealot philosophy he originally typed out :)
01:10:52 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Wm2.png more recent screenshot from some wikipedian, this one has *gtk1 mozilla* in it!
01:11:47 <elliott> i may (or may not) adopt some sort of vertical-menu-taskbar approach a la nextstep.
01:13:49 <elliott> catseye: am i young -- i had no idea what xv actually did until now
01:13:55 <elliott> apart from it being image-related
01:15:07 <catseye> it was the first piece of unix-based graphics software i ever encountered. am i old?
01:15:38 <elliott> catseye: does it really do its own widgets? :p
01:15:43 <catseye> IT WAS RUNNING ON A REAL X-TERMINAL...
01:15:45 <elliott> looks like vms. apparently it ran on vms too
01:16:00 <catseye> THIS WAS WHEN I WAS PROGRAMMING IN PL/I!
01:16:09 <elliott> looking for a pl/i channel
01:16:47 <catseye> the *one* chance i get to use that knowledge...
01:16:57 <catseye> oh, ha, like i retained any of it.
01:16:59 <elliott> he'll be around freenode, keep whoising >:)
01:17:05 <elliott> i think you can set up a reminder on freenode dunno :P
01:17:20 <elliott> things i learned from irregular webcomic today: spirit's sister rover is still fully operational! wtf!
01:17:33 <catseye> all i really remember is that it is a brutal language. structures are defined by indentation, and there are no types (just some variables are "like" other variables.)
01:17:39 <elliott> "But Spirit wasn't the only part of the 2003 Mars Exploration Rover Mission. The mission had two Mars rovers. Spirit's twin rover, Opportunity, landed on Mars 21 days after Spirit, on 25 January, 2004.
01:17:40 <elliott> And, as of today, Opportunity is still fully operational.
01:17:40 <elliott> It continues to travel across the surface of Mars, seeing new and previously unexplored Martian terrain, investigating the soil and rocks, taking pictures, making measurements, and communicating all of this valuable information back to us on Earth. For the past two Earth years it has been driving, slowly, towards the large crater known as Endeavour, making scientific measurements along the way. Barring disaster, it should reach Endeavour some tim
01:17:41 <elliott> e in the next few months."
01:18:08 <elliott> oh nice pl/i is pronounced "p l one"
01:18:16 <elliott> gotta love single-digit roman numerals
01:18:27 <olsner> programming language one (as in the one and only?)
01:18:35 <elliott> the first REAL programming language YAR
01:18:50 <catseye> There Can Be Only ok nevermind
01:18:57 <elliott> -- tv ad in a few years time
01:19:07 <elliott> Find out what you'llBuntu at ibuntu.com.
01:19:20 <olsner> wasn't pl/i the one with something like a hundred defined passes of the compiler, with each pass always passing on its garbled impression of the code from the previous pass rather than aborting?
01:19:39 <catseye> olsner: it could well be. it had that feel.
01:19:55 <catseye> olsner: it did have macros defined at the AST-level, so...
01:20:10 <elliott> [woman] "Find out why people are saying that theyBuntu... and maybe you'll be saying it too."
01:20:21 <elliott> [crowd] "iBuntu at iBuntu.com!"
01:20:23 <olsner> I seem to recall a fairly recent horror-story featuring PL/I
01:20:37 <catseye> elliott: please do not let any of them see this.
01:20:54 <elliott> catseye: i will attempt to cause clog to erase the previous lines.
01:20:55 * Sgeo will pastie it and paste into #ubuntu (not really)
01:20:58 <elliott> clog: NOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOP
01:21:00 <elliott> clog: NOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOP
01:21:00 <elliott> clog: NOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOPNOP
01:21:33 <elliott> ubuntu two is gonna be so ubuntu
01:21:38 <elliott> it'll fuck you in the ass. the true meaning of ubuntu
01:21:45 <elliott> ("humanity to others" is a very... loose translation)
01:21:52 <elliott> giving your "humanity" to others
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01:31:05 <Gregor> Super Mario Brothers: The Movie: The Game
01:32:35 <catseye> it would be kind of like that "Pac Land" game
01:33:02 <catseye> where Pacman has ARMS and LEGS
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01:45:55 <pikhq> Gregor: So, we're seeking to evolve people into dinosaurs?
01:46:21 <olsner> what else would we be seeking?
01:46:54 <catseye> AT&T is already a good approximation
01:47:02 <catseye> Granted, that's *multiple* people
01:47:11 <catseye> But it simulates the sluggish CNS rather well.
01:47:55 -!- boscop has left (?).
01:48:15 <catseye> Gregor: I have yet to try it
01:48:29 <catseye> Now that the protagonist is Gregor, I am somewhat averse
01:48:44 <catseye> Please tell me it is actually "chibi Gregor"
01:49:01 <Gregor> It's a tiny little walking guy, which I put a hat and tie on to make be me.
01:49:10 <catseye> Oh okay. That's not so bad.
01:49:42 <Gregor> Also, I only have it as a /game/ on my system :P
01:49:49 <catseye> It was mainly the whole "bookmarklet" technology which has scared me away from trying it.
01:49:49 <Gregor> I haven't uploaded the game components yet.
01:50:00 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:50:02 <Gregor> All it does is add two script tags to the current page.
01:51:12 <catseye> ok, figured it out. now, where to try...
01:51:34 <Gregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/
01:51:51 * Sgeo will be disconnecting from IRC ninish
01:52:44 <catseye> I tried sourceforge.net. It was quite amusing.
01:52:55 <catseye> Especially after I clicked "WebPlat!" a second time
01:57:04 <catseye> Wait, this "bookmarklet" thing though...
01:59:44 <Gregor> OK, I added the first "game" version of WebPlat.
01:59:53 <Gregor> (Not yet uploaded :P )
02:00:31 <catseye> These JS bookmarklets, could they inject Ajax calls into a page? I can't see why not.
02:01:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:02:03 <catseye> I should test WebPlat on IE :)
02:03:45 -!- augur has joined.
02:03:46 <Gregor> It's easy to win on Google :P
02:03:53 <Gregor> Now, the real challenge...FACEBOOK
02:04:11 <catseye> "Armillaria hinnulea... are edible, but can be easily confused with poisonous Galerina species, which can grow side-by-side with Armillaria."
02:04:24 <catseye> to whoever was saying MUSHROOMS N.P.
02:05:16 <Gregor> FACEBOOK IS PERFECT 8-D
02:05:26 <Gregor> (Note: it does not display perfectly, it is perfect for this game)
02:06:10 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:06:30 -!- augur has joined.
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02:07:25 <catseye> WOW, IE is... so not even there.
02:07:25 -!- augur has joined.
02:08:03 <catseye> There's no "Bookmarks". Instead you have a "Favorites Center".
02:09:39 <catseye> I srsly cannot create a bookmark manually.
02:09:46 <Gregor> Bleh, only got 28/33 on Facebook :P
02:09:55 * Gregor gives Wikipedia another go.
02:10:13 <catseye> I can still the JS in the URL bar, and Chibi Gregor appears...
02:11:23 <pikhq> How do you collect images, exactly?
02:13:09 <catseye> How to do it: Bookmark anything else. Open "Organize Favorites". Select the link you bookmarked, right-click, "Properties". Edit URL to be that text in the textbox. CAVEAT: STILL DOES NOT WORK.
02:13:12 <pikhq> Apparently by not being on a site with annoying divs.
02:13:21 <catseye> Chibi-Gregor appears, but does not respond to input.
02:14:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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02:16:04 <pikhq> www.dresdencodak.com
02:17:15 <Gregor> I can if I don't misspell though.
02:17:43 <Gregor> That is some crazy divs
02:18:50 <Gregor> Something is all wrong with my image counting ...
02:19:41 * catseye flails arms outstretched in front
02:19:55 <catseye> No worries, just give me some moments.
02:21:52 <Gregor> Fixt image counting :P
02:22:02 <Gregor> Still can't win at Wikipedia though.
02:24:06 <catseye> You'd THINK that part would be simple.
02:24:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
02:25:12 <catseye> ok so yesterday FF *.10 became available. now FF *.11 is available. SCRAMBLEFIXCODE.
02:26:05 -!- augur_ has joined.
02:27:30 <catseye> Mathnerd314: hell, just a moment ago I was using *IE* :)
02:27:48 <catseye> Mathnerd314: I'm curious, what do you mean by "still"?
02:28:24 <catseye> Is Firefox now obsolete? Am I, as a rat, obligated to desert this sinking ship?
02:28:47 <Mathnerd314> well, FF is obsolete. Just checkout the beta
04:27:00 -!- clog has joined.
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04:27:02 <catseye> (note surprise here that it doesn't TELL me "hey, um: mime type?")
04:27:11 <pikhq> catseye: Still. FIX IT ITS A BAD IDEA.
04:27:11 <Gregor> clog: WELCOME, our friend!
04:27:20 <Gregor> clog: Will you PLEASE not talk about [X]HTML?
04:27:28 <Gregor> clog would never talk about XHTML.
04:27:29 <pikhq> catseye: It is *technically* valid to send out "HTML compatible" XHTML as application/html.
04:27:33 <pikhq> catseye: Just a bad idea.
04:27:40 <catseye> pikhq: I'll... see what I can do. It's not a high priority until something looks atrocious.
04:27:50 <pikhq> catseye: "HTML compatible" meaning it uses *absolutely no* XHTML-specific features.
04:28:07 <pikhq> catseye: And if you do that, there is no point in using XHTML at all.
04:28:17 <pikhq> catseye: So. FIX IT NAO
04:28:36 <pikhq> catseye: Or else I will sentence you to 2 months writing a tag soup parser.
04:29:22 <Gregor> pikhq: DEAR YOU: STOP BEING A ZEALOT. WE GET THE POINT. OR I'LL SENTENCE YOU TO BE EHIRD/ALISE/ELLIOTT FOR THREE MONTHS.
04:29:52 <pikhq> Gregor: If you're not fixing it then I'm not done.
04:29:59 <Gregor> THAT FIRST BIT WAS SUPPOSED TO SOUND LIKE A LETTER BUT IT CAME OUT WEIRD, SO IGNORE IT.
04:30:18 <catseye> if I try codu.org/test.xhtml in IE, it prompts me to save it to disk
04:30:31 <pikhq> catseye: Yes, because IE doesn't handle XHTML at all.
04:30:54 <pikhq> catseye: And sending XHTML as application/html only works on IE at all through its tag soup parser.
04:31:01 <Gregor> bsmntbombdood: At all.
04:31:10 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Some versions will show the parse tree of the XML.
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04:31:28 <catseye> if I tell it "open it" it asks me "OMG you are running something you found on the INTERNET!" and then opens it in Firefox.
04:32:39 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Oh. IE9 beta supports XHTML.
04:33:41 <Gregor> IE9 supports EVERYTHING.
04:33:47 <Gregor> IE9 is legitimately an OK browser.
04:34:08 <Gregor> IE9 will probably run webplat, which is what we're all supposed to be talking about ;)
04:34:18 <pikhq> And SVG... And HTML5 stuff...
04:34:49 <pikhq> It's actually fixed most of the problems of IE that make web developers angry.
04:35:03 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Nope!
04:35:30 <pikhq> Internet Explorer didn't handle PNG fully until *this year*.
04:35:54 <pikhq> (previously, it had broken transparency support. Less broken in IE7.)
04:36:40 <Gregor> quintopia: While we're at it, have any game ideas? I made things more modular so I can inject new games semi-easily.
04:37:47 <quintopia> idea: map a key so that standing on a link and pressing that key goes to that link
04:39:10 <Gregor> quintopia: I can do that easily enough, it just takes a bit of effort to load the character on the other side of that link :P
04:39:14 <Gregor> Which is why I've punted on it thusfar.
04:40:44 <quintopia> then don't worry about loading it on the other side
04:41:17 <quintopia> 'snot like it's difficult to click the bookmark again
04:41:18 <oerjan> <Gregor> I LOVE CAPS. <-- not just hats?
04:41:55 <Gregor> quintopia: That doesn't help the "you're adventuring" aspect much :P
04:41:59 <catseye> we call him "oerjan of the nondeterministic lexicon"
04:43:23 <pikhq> Gregor: Seriously though, XHTML-as-HTML is about as ignorant and redneck as it's possible to be while still knowing what XHTML is. Make it STAWP.
04:43:55 <quintopia> an easy enough way to make the character appear on the other side would be replacing all the URLs on the page with one that loads the page via codu... yes?
04:44:11 <quintopia> or not the actual URLs, but the URL it sends you to when you hit that key
04:44:48 <catseye> Interestingly, if I force application/xml+xhtml, nothing breaks except the background image. Which is defined in CSS. So I have no idea why that breaks.
04:45:07 <pikhq> catseye: XHTML has a different DOM than HTML.
04:45:30 <pikhq> Doing this can *also* break Javascript.
04:45:44 <quintopia> come to think of it, wouldn't it be better if all this happened via codu pages like codu.org/webplat/play.html?url=yoururlhere
04:46:52 <quintopia> no, we don't speak of ur-URLs here
04:48:28 <pikhq> Gregor: See that: your CSS might not work on XHTML!
04:52:29 * Gregor breaks the bookmarklet again :P
04:52:35 <catseye> It's case sensitive in XHTML.
04:52:51 <catseye> If I convert the CSS element selectors to all lowercase, it looks fine again.
04:52:56 <pikhq> Yeah, XHTML is case sensitive as well.
04:53:26 <Gregor> Now, webplat presents a menu of games!
04:53:31 <Gregor> Of which there is of course only one option!
04:54:23 <pikhq> Meanwhilst, Final Fantasy!
04:54:31 <pikhq> (Meanwhilst? Is that a word? It should be.)
04:54:31 <Gregor> It seems I broke it! Hoopla!
04:55:52 <Gregor> Meanwhile, people in the 21st century are using the word "meanwhile" and sending XHTML as HTML!
04:56:33 <pikhq> Gregor: Do you use gets?
04:56:51 <pikhq> (that is, char *gets(char *s);)
04:56:53 <quintopia> and back at the ranch, a gang of zebras stars in a sylvester stallone western!
04:57:08 <Gregor> pikhq: I modified my GCC so it wouldn't give me a warning about gets, JUST so I could use it!
04:57:17 <pikhq> Gregor: So you're consistent.
04:57:39 <pikhq> "I do stupid, retarded things that you have to be smart to do out of SPITE! MWAHAHAHA."
04:58:18 <Gregor> And YOU'RE comparing using a hideously insecure function to potential rendering issues! Which I have neither committed to fixing nor committed to not fixing, merely not committed to fixing at the moment! YEAH.
04:59:30 <pikhq> Gregor: It's still dumb.
05:00:59 <quintopia> "I have very strong opinions and everyone who doesn't like them is an idiot."
05:01:48 <pikhq> quintopia: Technical issue -- there is, in fact, a RIGHT and a WRONG.
05:01:48 <catseye> I'm half-considering serving all my xhtml as application/xml+xhtml and letting IE users upgrade or suffer.
05:02:03 <pikhq> And it is WRONG to serve XHTML as application/html.
05:02:15 <Gregor> quintopia: Hey! I want to see a hat DRAMATICALLY SPLAYED BY A CORPSE. ... of me?
05:02:40 <pikhq> quintopia: That I know not how to argue as anything but a zealot is beside the point.
05:03:00 <quintopia> pikhq: if there are issues with my last statement, it is because it was intentionally hyperbolic. hence, why i'm looking for my strawman-burning matches
05:03:19 <pikhq> quintopia: Oooh, I love strawmen!
05:03:43 <pikhq> Serving XHTML as application/html is raping babies. Would *you* rape babies! (only thing I love more is non sequiturs)
05:03:58 * Gregor lets the artist work :P
05:04:11 <pikhq> ... And quite amusingly, that last sentence is a command, not a question.
05:04:21 <pikhq> So, I just requested that everyone here rape babies.
05:04:59 <pikhq> Unspecified amount.
05:05:12 <Gregor> If I even knew what a <DD> tag WAS, that might help me give it a more reasonable bounding box ...
05:05:14 <pikhq> I think I'm going to have to limit it to the set of naturals, though.
05:06:03 <pikhq> Nay, the integers.
05:07:56 <Sgeo> Someone in my class is confused by XML. He doesn't know why anyone would choose to use it
05:08:24 <catseye> Sgeo: it's like choosing to drive on the right-hand side of the road
05:08:42 <catseye> You don't do it because it's the prettier side of the road or anything
05:09:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: You should avoid XML unless you need to interoperate with something that uses XML.
05:13:17 <Sgeo> Gregor, http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5700495
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05:21:07 * quintopia just accidentally quit ff instead of closing a window
05:21:20 <quintopia> oh yeah gregor. i just made a gstander
05:21:31 <quintopia> for standing still without looking like you want to take a shit
05:25:06 <quintopia> obtw. you may have to make all the sprites taller and wider to keep your code simple, because jumping and dying require taller and wider sprites
05:25:27 <quintopia> i'll let you know exactly how many rows and columns to add to which borders
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05:30:01 <quintopia> although, your code is going to have to be aware of the sprites' size changes anyway. adaptive bounding boxes are best...
05:37:40 <Gregor> quintopia: Could you at least send me the standing one so I can quickfix that? :P
05:42:13 <quintopia> http://imgur.com/PGhIz sorry to be a perfectionist, but the mouth was the wrong color on that one....
05:42:27 <quintopia> and probably is the wrong color on all the runners... :/
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05:42:50 <quintopia> you can't see it at scale, but it bugged me enough zoomed in to edit
05:43:36 <quintopia> do you seriously have long blonde hair dude?
05:43:57 <Gregor> That's why I made this character me :P
05:44:14 <quintopia> can i see you wearing this hat pleeeeeeease?
05:44:34 <Gregor> http://codu.org/hats/SteelHomburg-med.jpg
05:44:47 <Gregor> That's not that hat, but in the pic of me I have with that hat, my hair is up :P
05:44:57 <Gregor> http://codu.org/hats/Tyrolean-med.jpg
05:45:20 <pikhq> http://codu.org/hats.php
05:45:36 <oerjan> or at least exhausting.
05:45:58 <Gregor> Not actually exhaustive, I have some new ones I haven't added yet.
05:46:04 <Gregor> Quite a few actually, I need to get to that >_>
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05:46:28 <quintopia> i only have like three non-cap hats >>
05:46:56 <pikhq> Nor do I have long hair any longer.
05:47:08 <quintopia> if you did, it would be longer hair
05:47:25 <Sgeo> I don't think I have many hat
05:47:35 <Sgeo> One from Disney World from when I was a kid
05:47:36 <catseye> I listen to "Men Without Hats"
05:47:41 <Sgeo> Battery powered thingy
05:47:49 <Sgeo> And... that's it, I think
05:48:00 <Sgeo> I'll have to check
05:50:04 <quintopia> hat 1: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v374/158/27/12807307/n12807307_34726356_576.jpg
05:51:12 <Gregor> Having the jumping animation would definitely be a plus X-D
05:51:18 <Gregor> BUT for the moment this is an improvement.
05:52:28 <quintopia> hat 2: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v11/101/94/12805677/n12805677_5114828_2108.jpg (only used on sep 19 and occasionally oct 31)
05:55:15 <Gregor> quintopia: By the way, these pixel-art running guy images are SOOO PERFECT for this.
05:56:01 <quintopia> hat3: http://k1.cdn.okcimg.com/php/load_okc_image.php/images/16/150x150/558x800/28x43/178x193/0/1179623903808528596.jpeg
05:56:44 <Gregor> By the way, if possible jumper should have both a "jumping" and "falling" image.
05:57:28 <quintopia> there will be more than just jumping and falling sir
06:02:54 <quintopia> um, anyone want to fly to vegas for next to nothing?
06:05:42 <quintopia> meh, i think it's a facebook scam anyway
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06:13:02 <Gregor> OK, wtf. Image caching fail.
06:13:07 <Gregor> It's redownloading images. A lot.
06:15:51 <quintopia> okay so i couldn't make an archive for some damn reason
06:15:52 <Gregor> (Or at least, so indicates Firebug)
06:15:55 <quintopia> http://imgur.com/bhtND&RjMf9&qvOcx
06:16:08 <quintopia> the one with the flattened tie is jumping up
06:16:18 <quintopia> the other two are for falling (alternate rapidly)
06:16:39 <quintopia> hold tight and i'll make the special double jump sequence
06:17:49 <Sgeo> I should set up TrueCrypt at some point
06:18:04 <Sgeo> Unless the BitLocker thing's available to Home Premium users
06:19:06 <Mathnerd314> doesn't truecrypt have some really weird license?
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06:19:40 <quintopia> gregor: aren't you supposed to load all the images when the page/script loads into an array? i used js once for a picture gallery thing and that kept them cached.
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06:20:01 <Gregor> That's what I'm doing.
06:20:15 <Gregor> Apparently if you just bang the same .src into an image over and over again, it'll reload even if it's cached :P
06:20:23 <Gregor> Have to make sure to only request a change when there's a change :P
06:20:46 <Gregor> imgur appears to have un-transparentized those.
06:21:25 <Gregor> tar + filebin = so much more reliable :P
06:21:36 <quintopia> 01:15 < quintopia> okay so i couldn't make an archive for some damn reason
06:22:41 <quintopia> okay, apparently, it successfully made an archive
06:22:49 <quintopia> but didn't give me any user feedback on success
06:22:58 <quintopia> and this is the only reason i fucking use GUIs
06:23:37 <quintopia> http://filebin.ca/yxuzq/jumperl.png.tar.gz
06:24:08 <Gregor> UNIX 101: No news is good news
06:24:39 <Gregor> These have no transparency either.
06:24:39 <quintopia> yep. back when programs were designed to talk to other programs
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06:27:32 <Gregor> If it wasn't, it'd be easy to fix, but it's ambiguous with the shoes ...
06:27:53 <Gregor> If the shoes are the same as in stander, I can fix it.
06:29:40 <Gregor> In fallerl0 they're obviously not though >_>
06:30:47 <quintopia> open it in an editor and see if there are multiple layers
06:31:03 <quintopia> i'm pretty sure there's a background layer that you can just delete
06:34:28 <Gregor> Only one layer for me.
06:34:35 <Gregor> (Do .pngs even support layers?)
06:35:02 <quintopia> but layers may be application specific
06:35:58 <Gregor> Hrm ... his jumping looks ... kinda stiff.
06:36:15 <Gregor> The running looks good, but the jump just looks unnatural.
06:37:01 <Gregor> Not that I have any suggested fix mind you.
06:39:11 <quintopia> but first i need to fix transparency on this thing
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06:46:36 <quintopia> http://filebin.ca/nyfpq/gjumperl0.png.tar.gz
06:46:44 <quintopia> alright, i coaxed the background to white
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06:51:21 <Gregor> To be clear, this is actually jumper0, faller0 and faller1, yes?
06:52:21 <quintopia> yeah, you can figure out which one was which
06:56:27 <Gregor> Jumping looks better, falling is still kinda weird IMHO.
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07:00:11 * Gregor tests with production version.
07:00:59 <quintopia> well, the menu pops up, i pick the game, and then...no dude.
07:01:15 <Gregor> It might take an obscene amount of time to load :P
07:01:21 <Gregor> What browser? (Remind me ...)
07:02:17 <Gregor> BTW, why did you make it a guy with long blond hair if you didn't know I had long blond hair? X-D
07:02:45 <Gregor> Anyway, I've no time to debug right now, need to sleep. If it magically starts working for you, hoopla?
07:02:48 <quintopia> it wasn't suppsoed to be a guy....
07:03:48 <Gregor> Well I adjusted it into a guy so bully for me :P
07:04:46 <quintopia> okay but srsly. let me know when you get it working
07:05:29 <Gregor> Is there anything in the JavaScript console?
07:05:41 <quintopia> i'm getting errors about charCode of keyup event being meaningless
07:06:22 <Gregor> That's fine, that's just jQuery being jQuery. Should only be concerned about actual errors.
07:06:32 <Gregor> OH SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
07:06:35 <Gregor> I know the problem X-D
07:07:02 <quintopia> GOOD CUZ I WANNA GET BACK TO MY EPIC HIPTHRUSTING
07:07:26 <Gregor> Testing with http://localhost/ = I R retard.
07:07:39 <Gregor> Anyway, refresh and try again :P
07:08:31 <quintopia> while you're testing, try tapping left and right once
07:09:51 <quintopia> oh, hmm, the little changes that happen when he's falling don't show up under the big motion of the falling
07:13:05 <Gregor> quintopia: It works really well if you're falling far enough that you're scrolling with the fall, thereby keeping him in place.
07:17:28 <quintopia> (aka, leaning back and kicking to maintain balance in midair)
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07:27:04 <Gregor> And now I really REALLY need to sleep X-D
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07:46:19 <quintopia> gregor: need to cycle through falling AND running images faster. the former looks more like shufflesliding than walking
07:58:15 <fizzie> From: Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net>, Newsgroups: comp.sys.super,comp.lang.forth,comp.lang.javascript,alt.folklore.computers, Subject: Inching closer on the Singularity Clock.
07:58:49 <fizzie> "Greeting to all Singularitarians. The Singularity is an event brought to you free-of-charge and open-source by Project Mentifex, which has today updated the free open-source AI Mind in JavaScript for Microsoft Internet Explorer at http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html --"
07:59:55 <fizzie> You can write in "tom writes jokes", "ben writes books", "jerry writes rants", "ben writes articles", "will write poems", and then say "ben writes" and it will output "BEN WRITES BOOKS".
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08:00:10 <fizzie> A thinking machine! What will they invent next?!
08:00:51 <quintopia> they might invent the irrational logic device next?
08:01:00 <quintopia> the infinite improbability computer?
08:05:44 <fizzie> Well, are you using IE?
08:06:41 <fizzie> It's not as interesting as older versions of the Mind, which could spew out unlimited amounts of ungrammatic nonsense about GOD doing THIS and THAT.
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13:53:43 <fizzie> Hee, they finally installed that Condor thing -- http://www.cs.wisc.edu/condor/ -- for doing parallel stuff on idle workstations. Nifty.
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14:31:44 <ais523> ugh, DHCP has suddenly stopped working here at the University on my laptop
14:31:53 <ais523> it was working yesterday, no relevant software updates since
14:31:59 <ais523> so I think something may be wrong with the routers
14:32:00 <pikhq> fizzie: Condor is a bit of a pain to deal with.
14:32:32 <pikhq> fizzie: Iiit has its own libc. Need I say more?
14:34:39 <fizzie> Fortunately "dealing" with it is (at least partially) someone else's problem; though I have to say I haven't yet tried to actually use it.
14:34:51 <fizzie> This should be a relatively homogenous environment for it, I think.
14:35:28 <pikhq> It actually works reasonably well in non-homogenous environments. It's just a pain to roll out.
14:35:55 <pikhq> Wonder if I've still got the all-VMs Condor cluster here.
14:38:28 <fizzie> Well, that's good: since rolling-out and maintaining it is the part that is done by others.
14:48:16 <pikhq> Aaand there's more IPv4 space than there was yesterday.
14:48:34 <pikhq> Interop handed their class A back to the free pool.
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15:00:28 <ais523> pikhq: how much of it did they keep?
15:02:16 <pikhq> ais523: None of the class A. They switched to a smaller allocation of I don't know what.
15:02:41 <pikhq> But given that they're an ISP, I'm going with "still a fuckton."
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16:08:45 <Sgeo> She is now trying to teach the basics of HTML
16:08:56 <Sgeo> Or well, skim them
16:09:13 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that it scares me that there are people in this class with no knowledge of HTML
16:10:05 <Vorpal> ais523, check with wireshark?
16:10:10 <Vorpal> (if it is still broken)
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16:13:29 <Sgeo> The whole CGI h1() thing reminds me of Seaside's painting stuff
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16:15:30 <Sgeo> Maybe people in the game progamming course will be more competent
16:16:00 <Gregor> quintopia: Still waitin' on ka-splat me :P
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16:17:40 <webquint> to whomever guessed that Plato's camera was a reference to the allegory of the cave (oerjan?), it was actually a reference to Plato's Heaven
16:17:52 <Sgeo> The sttudents in this class are morons, the professor is clueless (not as clueless as the students)
16:18:25 <Sgeo> Just argued with a student that the reason his index.html was giving 500 was because he was insisting on keeping it in cgi-bin. Finally got him to move it out, it worked
16:24:47 <webquint> gregor: not while I'm in class kthx
16:25:34 <Gregor> I sped up running and falling. They're ~11fps instead of ~8fps now.
16:29:59 <Gregor> Facebook works totally correctly now!
16:30:30 <Sgeo> "A little more secure is the POST method"
16:30:51 <Sgeo> At least she is correctly stating to prefer POST... although it's a bit of a simplification to say that
16:31:07 <Sgeo> Maybe her "It's more secure" thing is just one huge deliberate oversimplification
16:32:33 <Gregor> Well, except that newly-loaded elements don't appear at all >_>
16:32:58 <webquint> GET is better in some situations, but choosing POST for security is like obfuscating your encryption algorithm...
16:33:44 <Sgeo> Well, if you don't know how to choose, which these students never will, then POST is probably better
16:35:31 <Sgeo> <form method="POST" action="http://localhost/cgi-bin/fig07_11.pl">
16:38:37 <Sgeo> The other students in the class
16:38:45 <Vorpal> <Gregor> I sped up running and falling. They're ~11fps instead of ~8fps now. <-- in what?
16:38:57 <Gregor> Vorpal: http://codu.org/webplat/
16:39:03 <Gregor> THE GREATEST THING EVER
16:39:31 <Vorpal> oh you changed icon since before
16:40:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, I click the link to play it on the current page and it just says "Which game would you like to play? [button titled "Image collection"] at the top
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16:42:19 <Gregor> Vorpal: That's weird, it hasn't had any problems on Firefox since ... ever :P
16:42:31 <webquint> lol in chromium, the link just displays the source code
16:43:15 <Sgeo> Not helping: The sound of drilling or jackhammers or whatever outside
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16:56:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, strange, now it works
16:58:18 <elliott> 20:29:22 <Gregor> pikhq: DEAR YOU: STOP BEING A ZEALOT. WE GET THE POINT. OR I'LL SENTENCE YOU TO BE EHIRD/ALISE/ELLIOTT FOR THREE MONTHS.
16:58:19 <elliott> 20:29:52 <pikhq> Gregor: If you're not fixing it then I'm not done.
16:58:30 <elliott> at least i'm only a zealot about actually important things :-P
16:58:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, why can't I collect the wikipedia logo on en.wikipedia.org ?
17:00:02 <elliott> Vorpal: it's actually a background image.
17:00:47 <Gregor> You can collect it on www.wikipedia.org :P
17:00:52 <Gregor> Only actual <img> tags are collectable.
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17:02:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, on en.wikipedia.org it seems very tricky to collect both of those images down at the bottom
17:02:46 <Gregor> Therefore it's possible :P
17:03:26 <elliott> Gregor: Totally gimme the bookmarklet URL or die.
17:03:44 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/webplat/ it's in an input box now
17:03:57 <elliott> Gregor: YAY IT'S LIKE THE DAY I GOT MARRIED*
17:05:09 <elliott> Gregor: Pressing space does... amazing things.
17:05:50 <elliott> Gregor: Hey you can enter divs now
17:06:01 <elliott> Gregor: But only from the top???
17:06:47 <Gregor> You mean by pressing down?
17:06:56 <Gregor> You've always been able to enter things by pressing down.
17:07:16 <elliott> I have been... missing out.
17:07:29 <Gregor> However, it's smarter about how many layers it puts in, so it's possible that whatever you're testing it on just had like a bajillion layers over that div, making it difficult to get through.
17:07:34 <elliott> Gregor: Amusingly it does not work on its homepage.
17:07:50 <Gregor> I need some garbage there to make it more usable :P
17:08:32 <elliott> Gregor: qwantz.com: So unplayable but SO RECOMMENDED
17:09:02 <elliott> Gregor: It... I fell to the bottom and it looks like he's masturbating.
17:09:14 <elliott> Oh that's your "falling" animation.
17:09:24 <Gregor> I don't have a death frame yet :P
17:11:33 <elliott> Gregor: Try the log index.
17:12:21 <elliott> Gregor: I... yeah, doesn't work.
17:13:44 <elliott> Gregor: I'm falling slowly through crazy.
17:13:59 <elliott> Man evolves from teenager -
17:13:59 <elliott> but ignores teenager to worship a male mother,
17:15:51 <elliott> Gregor: Resizing window breaks everything.
17:16:10 <Gregor> I have to cache the location of every element as there is no getElementByPosition function.
17:16:46 <elliott> Your mother is no getElem-
17:18:15 <elliott> Gregor: ubuntu.com -- it thinks a lot of basically invisible things are images.
17:18:36 <elliott> Gregor: Works fine on debian.org, showing your clear bias.
17:19:36 <elliott> Gregor: I beat debian.org woo
17:19:45 <elliott> Gregor: plz stop ctrl+w snatching
17:19:53 <Gregor> That's actually bothered me too X-D
17:20:01 <Gregor> I should just turn off WASD.
17:20:16 <elliott> Just make ctrl+w do window.close() :P
17:20:30 <Gregor> I will, but not right now :P
17:21:10 <elliott> Gregor: apple.com also unplayable :P
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17:21:47 <elliott> Gregor: Why does space do multipayer?
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17:22:09 <Gregor> elliott: Because the button from the choose-your-game loader is still focused, even though it's not visible.
17:22:15 <Gregor> So you're clicking it again.
17:22:27 <Gregor> I should actually remove it from the document instead of just making it invisible, but apparently I'm lazy.
17:23:07 <elliott> Gregor: apple.com/itunes is fun & challenging
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17:26:22 <Gregor> elliott: Isn't it weird how this very-stupid stopgap game intended only to be replaced is a lot of fun :P
17:26:35 <elliott> Gregor: NEVER REPLACE IT OMG (You have tried it on havenworks right?)
17:27:35 <Gregor> Well, not so much replaced as made just one subgame.
17:28:13 <elliott> Gregor: You don't have horizontal scrolling; rectify.
17:30:14 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, it considers my screen border the page border,t oo, or something.
17:30:42 <quintopia> yeah, the top of the page being a boundary is annoying
17:30:54 <quintopia> cuz pages always have images at the top
17:31:29 <elliott> quintopia: If you can get a few hundred images on http://havenworks.com/, I will worship you.
17:31:49 <Gregor> The horizontal issue is a huge mess
17:31:57 <elliott> HavenWorks is a huge mess :P
17:32:08 <Gregor> Some pages have wtf-wide divs floating around
17:32:11 <elliott> Gregor: /me tries it on yvettes bridal formal
17:32:19 <Vorpal> elliott, is there any formally proven libc?
17:32:31 <elliott> Gregor: It provides the game music for you.
17:32:47 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, I guess anything dealing with IO would be tricky, floating point too perhaps. But the rest should be doable
17:32:49 <quintopia> yvette's bridal formal is to mine ears like BGP is to cpressey's
17:33:00 <Vorpal> it sounds like a fun project if I find some spare time
17:34:00 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, it's... really not that easy
17:34:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't say easy
17:34:15 <elliott> it would be an *incredible* result if someone made a full libc that was formally proven.
17:34:26 <elliott> i.e. frankly i'd expect someone to make their own tool for it :)
17:34:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I very much doubt you can prove stdio without involving the kernel a lot
17:35:02 <elliott> Vorpal: there's an L4 variant that has been proven correct
17:35:55 <Vorpal> elliott, but even something like a library with a large number of the "doesn't touch anything but parameters, and don't perform IO" standard libc functions would certainly be useful to people who want to prove their own code
17:36:11 <elliott> usually the libc would be considered axiomatic there...
17:36:39 <Vorpal> elliott, it would still be useful for embedded programming
17:37:13 <Vorpal> elliott, thinking about stuff like formally proven qsort, memcpy, memmove, strcmp and so on
17:37:34 <elliott> if your libc maintainer gets qsort right...whoa.
17:37:43 <elliott> or memcpy/memmove (maybe they tried to do tricky bullshit)
17:38:43 <Vorpal> elliott, well, if you are writing for an embedded system you might have to provide the libc yourself. Been in that position myself
17:38:56 <Vorpal> (not where I needed to do formal proof though)
17:39:27 <Vorpal> elliott, as for qsort, well, overflow is something you might have to consider
17:39:30 <elliott> what, did you write a libc for lego? :p
17:40:00 <Vorpal> elliott, nah, another device, and not a full libc, just the stuff I needed for that thing, which was memcpy, strcmp and a handful of other ones
17:40:58 <Vorpal> hm formally proving snprintf sounds... tricky
17:41:40 <elliott> can you please say "proving snprintf correct", not just ... proving it?
17:41:46 <Vorpal> elliott, oh right, I can
17:41:56 <elliott> and it sounds like you're proving that snprintf is true
17:42:00 <elliott> which... confuses my brain
17:42:17 <Vorpal> elliott, but wait, that wouldn't be correct would it? Proving means "testing" or "putting at trial" here clearly ;P
17:42:33 <Vorpal> (no not really, just that archaic meaning is fun)
17:42:52 <Vorpal> (and it also makes "the exception proves the rule" a _lot_ more sensible)
17:46:39 <quintopia> gregorface: figured out why transparency wasn't working. should be good now.
17:53:48 -!- coppro has joined.
17:53:48 -!- coppro has quit (Changing host).
17:53:48 -!- coppro has joined.
17:53:59 <elliott> coppro: you fail at cloaks
17:54:19 <coppro> elliott: yeah, apparently I do
17:54:24 <elliott> * coppro (~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca) has joined #esoteric
17:54:24 <elliott> * coppro has quit (Changing host)
17:54:24 <elliott> * coppro (~scshunt@unaffiliated/scshunt) has joined #esoteric
17:54:46 <coppro> I blame the ping timeout
17:55:52 <elliott> 22:22:49 <quintopia> but didn't give me any user feedback on success
17:55:52 <elliott> 22:22:58 <quintopia> and this is the only reason i fucking use GUIs
17:56:04 <elliott> Yeah, because it's more reasonable to expect programs to fail without error messages, and succeed by blabbing.
17:56:42 <elliott> $ echo 'int main(){return 0;}' >x.c
17:56:51 <elliott> x.c:1: Compilation finished SUCCESSFULLY!
17:57:05 <elliott> coppro: thx, someone else was already uncreative enough to say that back when it was said
17:58:44 <quintopia> it may be more reasonable at that, since errors require some sort of functionality to print. if a bug in a program causes it to jump to the exit(0) before it has finished, then shall we presume it succeeded? i'd rather know that it reached the printf("success!") which is provably only reachable if success was achieved. one could even barrier said message with tests that make sure success actually happened.
17:59:15 <coppro> quintopia: if you care, you can always tack a check of success on the end
17:59:21 <elliott> 06:48:16 <pikhq> Aaand there's more IPv4 space than there was yesterday.
17:59:21 <elliott> 06:48:34 <pikhq> Interop handed their class A back to the free pool.
17:59:22 <elliott> 06:48:44 <pikhq> One more month!
17:59:36 <elliott> quintopia: in unix, if it says nothing, it worked.
17:59:41 <coppro> or take the unix route and prove each utility correct independently
17:59:46 <elliott> if it says something, it might have worked; read what it said.
17:59:49 <coppro> so therefore any composition of them is also success
17:59:53 <elliott> if it says something and exits with exit code 1, it definitely didn't work.
17:59:57 <elliott> just in case you can't read
18:00:14 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:00:15 <quintopia> i'd rather have feedback for everything, success and failure
18:00:16 * elliott loads a webpage, involving countless dead unix machines on the internet
18:00:20 <coppro> unix philosophy is still the <3
18:00:21 <elliott> Fairly low ping time for a dead OS.
18:00:29 <elliott> quintopia: ok, seriously, you have no idea why it's a good thing?
18:00:33 <coppro> how do you pipe stuff then
18:00:49 <elliott> coppro: no it isn't, unix is a piece of shit
18:00:51 <elliott> i'm just explaining the piece of shit
18:01:03 <quintopia> coppro: by setting up alternate ways of programs communicating than via files and stdio of course
18:01:20 <coppro> grep foo <file | sort "a\b\c\d\e\f\g\h\i\j\k\l\m\n\o\p\q\r\s\Success!\t\u\v\w\x\y\z"
18:01:38 <coppro> (where \ = newline, and the string is the result)
18:02:08 <elliott> both quintopia and coppro are right and dead wrong in equal amounts
18:02:28 <coppro> elliott: unix is not dead because it still gets used
18:02:39 <Vorpal> elliott, gcc does give output on success...
18:02:41 <coppro> the fundamental "do one thing and do it well" philosophy is still excellent
18:02:42 <elliott> coppro: out of curiosity, why did you just address that message to me?
18:02:44 <Vorpal> elliott, a file is also a form of output
18:02:48 <quintopia> god gets used too, but that doesn't mean it isn't dead
18:02:49 <coppro> and that's all I'm asserting
18:02:56 <coppro> elliott: because you were the one telling me I'm wrong
18:02:58 <quintopia> in fact, since god died, it has gotten more and more popular
18:03:09 <elliott> coppro: it is good in the trivial, obvious sense; it is retarded in the sense that many people like to think it is.
18:03:22 <elliott> coppro: also, *no* commonly-used *nixes actually follow the philosophy.
18:03:32 <elliott> "Plan 9 does!" yes it does. my point made
18:03:53 <elliott> <elliott> coppro: it is good in the trivial, obvious sense; it is retarded in the sense that many people like to think it is.
18:04:04 <elliott> the philosophy is obviously correct and trivial when interpreted in one way
18:04:07 <quintopia> and it's kind of a silly philosophy, IMO. as the Unix koans demonstrate
18:04:10 <elliott> and obviously ridiculous when interpreted in a silly way which most people do
18:04:21 <coppro> elliott: which silly way?
18:04:24 <quintopia> at least in the "do it as simply as possible" version of the philosophy
18:04:25 <elliott> wow are you guys actually coordinating when to say silly things to keep the balance :D
18:04:49 <elliott> coppro: "Everything does one thing except when it doesn't, and 'one thing' can include being a full GUI application with menus to do various tasks. It's one thing because it only operates on one type of data!"
18:04:55 <elliott> coppro: And similar abominations.
18:05:00 <coppro> ah, yeah, I totally agree
18:05:10 <elliott> coppro: Also the idea that the fact that the smaller components are divided into separate executable files is somehow *integral* to the philosophy.
18:05:23 <elliott> (If it isn't, then... it's just an obvious statement about how to design software components.)
18:06:10 <Vorpal> elliott, btw it seems why (used by frama-c for the actual proving bit) doesn't work on coq 8.3 yet. Compile error and I don't have enough ocaml or coq skills to sort it out.
18:06:18 <quintopia> i say, bring back the lisp machine! :D
18:06:21 <elliott> coppro: Oh, and I *severely* doubt the other component of the philosophy ("Structures are for noobs, all IO should totally be based on byte streams". Interestingly you never see people writing C programs this way; I wonder why they like "struct" so much?)
18:06:31 <elliott> quintopia: Lisp machines were great although the OSes didn't go far enough.
18:06:42 <elliott> But still, their component reuse for executing commands was limited, and Unix wins in that area.
18:07:19 <coppro> everything is a file is nice and flexible, but costs performance which, as it turns out, is very important
18:07:38 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, that's the plan. Just need to compile it myself instead of using the arch package then
18:07:46 <elliott> plan 9 has no performance problems
18:07:51 <elliott> sure it costs performance on systems not designed for it
18:07:59 <elliott> but if your system isn't designed according to your philosphy...
18:08:25 <coppro> and I suppose one should add that qualifier
18:08:31 <elliott> coppro: anyway the idea that files, and things coming into and out of a pipe, must be byte streams, is almost certainly wrong.
18:08:56 <elliott> as i said, you don't see unix programs being written that only use (char *), because structures are *useful* and rich
18:08:58 <coppro> elliott: but they are byte streams
18:08:59 <Vorpal> elliott, how well does plan9 scale to massive SMP or NUMA systems?
18:09:08 <elliott> coppro: you see absolutely no difference between passing an object around and doing
18:09:19 <Vorpal> say, for SMP, 16 or 32 CPUs or more. For NUMA, 100 or more CPUs
18:09:40 <coppro> elliott: I don't think the OS should mandate an ABI
18:09:43 <elliott> one, it's plain inefficiency. two, serialising functions is... iffy (can't think why you'd want to do that? well of course not, because you're too tied to bytestreams :))
18:09:50 <elliott> <coppro> elliott: I don't think the OS should mandate an ABI
18:10:17 <coppro> The utilities on the OS mandate the ABI
18:10:26 <coppro> (except for system calls, which they do mandate)
18:10:40 <elliott> ...it is interesting how the terminology is twisted to give Unix an advantage, having all these silly terms that are relevant only to Unix stupidity and meaningless elsewhere
18:10:48 <elliott> because the unix fans can just say, "what about the [silly]?"
18:10:55 <Vorpal> elliott, only to some degree. Consider the Linux kernel, it mandates the syscalls and ioctls and such. But not the actually calling convention for calling something like strcpy()
18:11:00 <coppro> which? ABI? systemcalls?
18:11:12 <elliott> coppro: for instance, the distinction between an OS and its utilities
18:11:15 <elliott> I guess by OS you meant kernel.
18:11:23 <elliott> Kernel vs programs is also an artificial distinction for many system designs.
18:11:27 <coppro> elliott: ah, yeah, fair
18:11:29 <elliott> (For instance, Smalltalk.)
18:11:47 <elliott> So really you can't even say "the kernel shouldn't specify that".
18:11:55 <elliott> coppro: Hell, I'm not offended, it's just interesting.
18:12:23 <elliott> coppro: Another one: "OS", "language" distinction. (Yes, it makes sense in many cases; but the terminology has somehow made them into such opposing concepts that suggesting a design where they are the same thing is considered meaningless heresy.)
18:12:26 <coppro> in that case, the bytestream abstraction still becomes necessary for communication with systems of different OSes (or the same OS on a different architecture or configuration)
18:12:48 <coppro> elliott: I sit next to a lisp machine on a regular basis now :D
18:13:06 <Vorpal> elliott, smalltalk doesn't run on bare hardware as far as I know in any current implementation? Not sure about historical implementations
18:13:16 <elliott> coppro: What model? Where? Is it for sale? How much does it cost? Answer to the last question desired irrelevant of the answer to the second-last.
18:13:19 <Vorpal> obvious example however is lisp machines
18:13:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Smalltalk was always an OS.
18:13:27 <elliott> Then it became a VM-language.
18:13:51 <coppro> http://www.globalnerdy.com/2008/12/03/symbolics-xl1200-lisp-machine-free-to-a-good-home/
18:13:57 <Vorpal> elliott, were there any actual working non-VM implementations?
18:14:01 <elliott> Vorpal: yes. the first one.
18:14:09 <Vorpal> elliott, when and what name?
18:14:11 <elliott> coppro: i read that post a while ago!
18:14:16 <elliott> Vorpal: 70s and "Smalltalk".
18:14:36 <elliott> coppro: Yes, but, cost for buying it from you guys.
18:14:52 <coppro> elliott: You'd have to ask the CSC. I don't know if they'd sell it
18:15:06 <quintopia> i would also purchase a lisp machine. that would be hella cool.
18:15:16 <elliott> coppro: Let's put it this way, it costs $3,500 new from Symbolics.
18:15:23 <elliott> coppro: I am willing to negotiate a price below that.
18:15:27 <elliott> coppro: Yes, Symbolics still sell Lisp Machines.
18:15:33 <elliott> http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt Prices as of February.
18:15:37 <elliott> quintopia: you can for $675
18:15:41 <elliott> you'll have to go and collect it though really
18:16:01 <elliott> i guess you could pay a ridiculous, *ridiculous* amount for postage instead
18:16:08 <coppro> it is "Currently inoperable due to (at least) a missing console cable,"
18:16:18 <Vorpal> elliott, custom hardware ore "stock" for that time?
18:16:24 <coppro> I never said it worked
18:16:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Um, it was at Xerox PARC.
18:16:28 <elliott> quintopia: Stanislav of Loper OS bought one.
18:16:29 <coppro> I merely said I sit next to it sometimes
18:16:38 <elliott> quintopia: Ask him about it if you want. He might yell at you :P
18:16:40 <Vorpal> elliott, well, that means it ran on?
18:16:55 <elliott> Vorpal really can't imagine an era before mass-produced standard computers. Wow.
18:17:09 <elliott> Vorpal: You do realise they made the Alto?
18:17:46 <elliott> Anyway I don't know if the machine is known, it was probably whatever PARC were using at the time.
18:18:00 <elliott> It predated the Alto, it seems.
18:18:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I also can't find a source for the OS thing but I'm fairly sure.
18:18:22 <Vorpal> elliott, let me rephrase it: did it go the lisp machine route of *specialised* hardware fitting the language, or did it look more like traditional PDPs and so on in the way it worked
18:18:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Hmm, it seems it was written for the Alto.
18:18:36 <elliott> The hardware was relatively normal, I think.
18:18:52 <Vorpal> right, that answers my question
18:19:00 <elliott> Vorpal: It may have actually been a "program" that took complete control over the display and the like; the distinction wasn't very clear in those days.
18:19:09 <elliott> Vorpal: "The Alto had a bit-slice processor based on the Texas Instruments' 74181 chip, a ROM control store with a writable control store extension and had 128 (expandable to 512) kB of main memory and a hard disk that used a removable 2.5 MB single-platter cartridge (Diablo Systems, a company Xerox later bought) similar to those used by the IBM 2310, all housed in a cabinet about the size of a small refrigerator. The Alto's CPU was a very innova
18:19:09 <elliott> tive microcoded processor which used microcode for most of the I/O functions rather than hardware. The microcode machine had 16 tasks, one of which executed the normal instruction set (which was rather like a Data General Nova), with the others used for the display, memory refresh, disk, network, and other I/O functions. As an example, the bitmap display controller was little more than a 16-bit shift register; microcode was used to fetch display
18:19:10 <elliott> refresh data from main memory and put it in the shift register."
18:19:20 <elliott> It introduced Ethernet on personal computers, incidentally.
18:20:02 <elliott> quintopia: I'd totally buy a 3620 but while I could scrap together $675 to buy it eventually going to Virginia is... not an option.
18:20:35 <Vorpal> elliott, "personal" by some definitions
18:20:41 <elliott> quintopia: BTW apparently the CRT is very crappy (for today), and the mouse too. Stanislav was also working on an interface to use a regular LCD display and a USB or PS/2 mouse with it, I think.
18:20:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it was single-user.
18:20:44 <Vorpal> elliott, looks more like workstation to me
18:20:49 <quintopia> elliott: point me to this stanislav guy
18:20:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Workstations are personal computers.
18:20:56 <elliott> quintopia: Dunno if he ever got it done though.
18:21:02 <elliott> quintopia: http://loper-os.org/
18:21:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah but what do you call the set PC \ Workstations ?
18:21:33 <coppro> elliott: anyways, back to the OS thing; byte streams are the lowest common denominator between computers; so byte-communication facilities must exist - not that they necessary need to be the normal mode of cross-process communication (/me envisions Erlang machines)
18:21:47 <elliott> quintopia: I recommend picking the LispMachine tag from the right and leaving a comment on an appropriate post.
18:21:51 <elliott> quintopia: He seems to not publish his email on that site.
18:22:12 <elliott> coppro: Well, you still need bytestrings for storing stuff in memory and on disk.
18:22:18 <elliott> coppro: And shoving over Ethernet.
18:22:35 <elliott> coppro: I doubt we'll ever see "object RAM" or "object disk" (not those object disks, disks that actually store objects :)) and I doubt they would be beneficial.
18:22:45 <elliott> coppro: So there's no real issue with bytestring for inter-computer communication.
18:22:49 <Gregor> quintopia: Hoopla. Still no splat though ;)
18:22:52 <quintopia> The GUI of my 4MHz Symbolics 3620 lisp machine is more responsive on average than that of my 3GHz office PC. The former boots (into a graphical everything-visible-and-modifiable programming environment, the most expressive ever created) faster than the latter boots into its syrupy imponade hell.
18:23:02 <Vorpal> <coppro> elliott: anyways, back to the OS thing; byte streams are the lowest common denominator between computers; <-- not really
18:23:05 <elliott> quintopia: He... that furore, get used to it.
18:23:08 <quintopia> Gregor: splat is low priority. let's get jumping looking nice first
18:23:18 <Gregor> quintopia: But I splat a lot :P
18:23:22 <Vorpal> coppro, 1) How large is a byte? Not always 8 bits in fact. Today yes but not historically
18:23:31 <elliott> "And then he splat, all over my computer."
18:23:34 <elliott> coppro: Let's maul Vorpal, together.
18:23:36 <Vorpal> coppro, 2) What about ternary computers, they don't use bytes
18:24:18 -!- Gregor has set topic: Mandelbrot was found stabbed by the Julia set | TOO SOON | Logs: http://is.gd/g4uID.
18:24:34 <Vorpal> coppro, also I read some paper that studied the viability of an erlang machine some time ago
18:24:56 -!- elliott has set topic: Mandelbrot stabbed to death; on autopsy, authorities found smaller version of Mandelbrot inside | http://is.gd/g4uID.
18:25:00 <Vorpal> coppro, was quite interesting, don't know where I found it though. I don't think it was from the HiPE group, not sure though
18:25:11 <Vorpal> elliott, how disrespectful
18:25:16 <elliott> Vorpal: * Gregor has changed the topic to: Mandelbrot was found stabbed by the Julia set | TOO SOON | Logs: http://is.gd/g4uID
18:25:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, how disrespectful
18:25:38 <elliott> Fuck everyone who would want people to be serious and somber about their own death.
18:25:47 <Gregor> elliott: I couldn't find a good fractally thing.
18:25:57 <elliott> You think Mandelbrot said "...and when I die, don't you dare get amusement out of it"?
18:26:00 <Gregor> However, "TOO SOON" was there for yuks :P
18:26:08 -!- Gregor has set topic: Mandelbrot stabbed to death; on autopsy, authorities found smaller version of Mandelbrot inside | TOO SOON | http://is.gd/g4uID.
18:26:12 <elliott> He's awesome. He died. Now stop weeping and lol.
18:26:34 <Vorpal> elliott, would you have done that the day you decided to move the link all over to the right?
18:26:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd have laughed if someone did.
18:27:01 <elliott> Doesn't always joke about deaths immediately != finds joking about deaths incredibly offensive
18:27:02 <Vorpal> elliott, but you wouldn't have done it yourself I presume?
18:27:09 <elliott> Doesn't always joke about deaths immediately != finds joking about deaths incredibly offensive
18:27:15 <Vorpal> elliott, true, I would wait a few more days thoygh
18:27:33 <elliott> He's dead. It's not like his corpse is going to decompose just that little bit more so that he can't hear.
18:27:38 <elliott> ...although that would be vaguely amusing.
18:27:47 <elliott> "LOL HE DIED" "I heard that!"
18:27:51 <elliott> "Maybe we should cremate him instead."
18:28:25 <Vorpal> elliott, he might get angry and become a fractal zombie, and there is no end to those...
18:28:33 <Gregor> elliott: Your line is almost worth vandalizing Wikipedia with :P
18:28:37 <elliott> "BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS nested inside other brains"
18:31:51 <Vorpal> elliott, hm do you know if there could be any issues installing coq into ~/local/coq or such? I mean, I have no idea how it an ocaml locates libaries and such. Should I expect the kind of pain you have with installing python packages outside /usr/lib/pythonX.Y/site-packages?
18:32:08 <elliott> Vorpal: OCaml doesn't have any dynamically-linked runtime as far as I know.
18:32:10 <Vorpal> I will probably use system ocaml if possible
18:32:34 <Vorpal> elliott, any issues at compile time though?
18:32:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't see why. It should work.
18:33:11 <Vorpal> elliott, what about compile time finding?
18:33:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't see why. It should work.
18:35:15 <elliott> Why don't AMD make any good processors.
18:35:25 <elliott> I REALLY DON'T WANT TO SUPPORT INTEL GUYS
18:36:05 <Vorpal> elliott, interesting build system coq has
18:36:40 <elliott> Gregor: Do you <3 their awful business practices? <3 their refusal to put virtualisation on a lot of laptop processors for no reason?
18:36:46 <elliott> Do you <3 this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11379089
18:36:52 <Vorpal> elliott, it looks like configure tries to fake looking like autoconf, but then when it was halfway done decided "screw it" and dropped the double -- for options and the = for separating options and arguments
18:38:29 <elliott> "lolita", what a hostname...
18:38:58 <elliott> http://i3.zekjur.net/screenshots/i3-8.jpg
18:38:58 <Gregor> quintopia: Can you say ... crazy spinjump? :P
18:39:17 <Vorpal> elliott, who took that?
18:39:23 <elliott> Someone who uses/develops i3?
18:39:33 <elliott> "ch3ka" is their username as you can see.
18:39:41 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, so this was not related to anything said recently in this channel?
18:39:52 <Gregor> quintopia: Oh, you're actually making something like a crazy spinjump? X-P
18:39:58 <Gregor> quintopia: I was just suggesting something different :P
18:40:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> I REALLY DON'T WANT TO SUPPORT INTEL GUYS <-- you recently changed here? I seem to remember you making fun of my reluctance with intel
18:40:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I love Intel processors, I dislike AMD's current offerings.
18:40:41 <Vorpal> <elliott> Do you <3 this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11379089 <-- yeargh
18:40:42 <quintopia> meanwhile, you can work out the physics for making it so i can punch a <P> and all the text disappears (and it becomes non-platform) while all the <a>s within it remain platforms
18:40:49 <elliott> Vorpal: That article has pretty much pushed me over the edge.
18:40:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Before, AMD's processors were bad enough to keep me supporting Intel.
18:41:15 <elliott> <quintopia> meanwhile, you can work out the physics for making it so i can punch a <P> and all the text disappears (and it becomes non-platform) while all the <a>s within it remain platforms
18:41:19 <Gregor> quintopia: But no, I'm at "work" :P
18:41:19 <elliott> quintopia: let's get married
18:43:36 <quintopia> oh i have so many ideas for this thing
18:43:42 <quintopia> just wait til you see the skulldog
18:43:51 <elliott> Gregor: Congratulations, quintopia now owns your game.
18:44:01 * elliott sues quintopia for statutory idea rape
18:44:23 <Gregor> quintopia: I so desperately need ideas, so I'll take what I can get :P
18:44:40 <Gregor> quintopia: BTW, what copyright info and license should I provide for the images?
18:44:51 <elliott> Gregor: And now quintopia will profit off your game.
18:45:24 <Gregor> quintopia: OK, and seeing as that I don't know your real name, what Copyright (C) line would you like on them once I get the project page all put together?
18:46:08 <elliott> quintopia: That's just your ALIAS.
18:46:48 * Gregor vaguely wonders how many times he's been drawn in pixel-art form now X-P
18:46:51 <elliott> quintopia: Ohh right you're not calling yourself Quin any more because of that one time you raped a cat.
18:46:57 <elliott> Don't worry, I won't tell anyone.
18:47:13 <Gregor> Putting all of quintopia's stuff together as one (and counting it as me even though it wasn't originally intended to be), at least three ...
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18:51:08 <Vorpal> Camlp4 library in : +camlp5
18:51:20 <Vorpal> elliott, slightly amusing configure output ^
18:51:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Things to learn when using OCaml: OCaml makes no sense.
18:51:43 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, that explains it
18:51:49 <elliott> Vorpal: camlp4 and camlp5 are extensions to OCaml that let you define Lisp-style macros.
18:51:52 <catseye> it's like java, where 1.6 means 6
18:51:56 <elliott> Vorpal: camlp5 is an incompatible version of the language.
18:51:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Both are maintained.
18:52:18 <Vorpal> so, why did it find v4 in v5 hm
18:52:20 <elliott> "Camlp4 is part of the official OCaml distribution which is developed at the INRIA. Its original author is Daniel de Rauglaudre. OCaml version 3.10.0, released in May 2007, introduced a significantly modified and backwards-incompatible version of Camlp4. De Rauglaudre maintains a separate backwards-compatible version, which has been renamed Camlp5. All of the examples below are for Camlp5 or the previous version of Camlp4 (versions 3.09 and prior
18:52:26 <catseye> and perl, where 6 means &*%#^
18:52:26 <elliott> "Even though it was released two years ago, the current version of camlp4 doesn't have yet a manual. The "Camlp4 manual" is from 2003, and is not compatible with present version."
18:52:31 <elliott> Vorpal: If it works, try not to think about it.
18:53:19 <Vorpal> elliott, also in the list of how configure configured stuff:
18:53:23 <Vorpal> Coq web site : http://coq.inria.fr/
18:53:32 <Vorpal> I wonder what option to configure sets that
18:53:45 <elliott> --coq-web-site=http://fun.on.nimp.org/
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18:54:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well. that would be -coq-web-site http://example.org/ if it existed
18:54:41 <elliott> it probably isn't an option
18:55:07 <Vorpal> elliott, why then list it in the list of stuff like "found optional thing x" and so on
18:55:48 <elliott> Fun things to do: Turn off images, JavaScript, Java. Set up default fonts. Disable websites' ability to change fonts. Set colours to all black on white, including links. Disable sites' ability to set these too. Disable image loading.
18:56:10 <Vorpal> elliott, why not just use lynx or something
18:56:26 <elliott> Lynx isn't point-and-click. Also it keeps layout, just not colours and images.
18:56:34 <Vorpal> ah, fun, it's "make world" not just plain "make"
18:56:40 <catseye> yeah there was a much easier way to accomplish that pointless task more efficiently
18:56:40 <Vorpal> for no very obvious reason
18:57:15 <catseye> Vorpal: they... are paying homage to bsd
18:57:33 <Vorpal> it is what INSTALL says
18:57:45 <elliott> make world is quite common with functional language impls
18:57:51 <elliott> since it's the whole libs and stuff
18:57:54 <Vorpal> elliott, so either would actually work here
18:57:58 <elliott> catseye: it's not that pointless a task
18:58:03 <elliott> it makes several websites significantly less irritating :)
18:58:23 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, but there is nothing in plain "make" or even "make all" that implies that it is not the whole thing
18:58:33 <Vorpal> elliott, after all, "make all" logically should be exactly that, all
18:59:46 <catseye> 'all' always struck me as a bit gratuitous (it's a phony target, and 'make' should really suffice)
19:00:26 <Vorpal> catseye, by default make just uses the first target, if you have several binaries to build or such, what would you call the first target
19:00:36 <Vorpal> all: program1 program2 program3 program4
19:00:40 <Vorpal> that makes kind of sense
19:01:10 <Vorpal> the rest of the coq makefile, which is custom as far as I can tell, is quite hairy. And gnu make specific.
19:01:32 <catseye> sort of. i still don't like that it's phony, though. if i were a *real* purist i'd proobably want make.sh to call 'make program1', 'make program2'...
19:01:49 <catseye> or to redesign the conceptual model :/
19:02:16 <Vorpal> catseye, make.sh? yeargh
19:08:18 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, coq seems to be a slow one to compile
19:08:32 <elliott> it's a large piece of software.
19:08:42 <Vorpal> elliott, but I think we are looking at hours here.
19:08:43 <elliott> Vorpal: the libraries will probably take a while too. uh, not sure if they're compiled actually
19:08:48 <elliott> Vorpal: huh -- maybe a slow machine?
19:08:51 <elliott> i wouldn't expect that long
19:08:59 <Vorpal> elliott, well, my desktop. 2 GHz
19:09:00 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe if it's trying to verify the included four-colour theorem proof :)
19:09:12 <elliott> Vorpal: or the goedel's first incompleteness proof (dunno if they still/ever bundle(d) that)
19:09:27 <quintopia> elliott: is it the simplified FCT proof or the original one?
19:09:47 <elliott> quintopia: Vorpal: http://r6.ca/Goedel/goedel1.html
19:09:53 <elliott> quintopia: it's a tweaked modern one, I think
19:09:53 <Vorpal> elliott, but you are looking at 5-10 seconds per file or more here. Some files took like a minute
19:09:58 <elliott> quintopia: in fact I know :P
19:10:00 <Vorpal> elliott, slow as g++ but not as memory hungry
19:10:10 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact it is quite modest in memory usage
19:10:10 <elliott> Vorpal: and a lot faster resulting code than g++...
19:10:20 <elliott> Vorpal: or most likely ocamlopt
19:10:27 <Vorpal> elliott, it is the opt one
19:10:27 <elliott> Vorpal: do you have ocaml.opt?
19:10:47 <elliott> Vorpal: do you have ocamlopt.opt?
19:10:53 <Vorpal> elliott, better up, I have ocamlopt.opt
19:10:56 <elliott> Vorpal: that's the optimising ocaml compiler, compiled with the optimising ocaml compiler
19:11:02 <elliott> Vorpal: fastest compilation you can get then
19:11:11 <elliott> ocamlopt = optimising compiler
19:11:15 <elliott> .opt = compiled with optimising compiler
19:11:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to have every ocaml thing in an .opt except ocaml itself
19:11:31 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah i think ocaml itself is fast enough that it doesn't need an .opt
19:11:36 <elliott> since it doesn't optimise as heavily
19:11:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hm what is ocamlbuild.native ?
19:11:46 <elliott> quintopia: fun thing about that proof, it could actually print out the unprovable statement
19:11:51 <Vorpal> elliott, the other ones are ocamlbuild and ocamlbuild.byte
19:11:52 <elliott> quintopia: with a little bit of tweaking of types
19:12:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, it has been going at:
19:12:10 <elliott> Vorpal: builds to (or the ocamlbuild executable is built with) native code
19:12:11 <Vorpal> COQC contrib/setoid_ring/Field_theory.v
19:12:15 <Vorpal> for about half a minute now
19:12:15 <elliott> Vorpal: rather than bytecode
19:12:20 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, then it's compiled coq
19:12:23 <elliott> and it's not using ocaml any more
19:12:46 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes, it actually compiled the coqc one pretty soon, about a minute or two into the compilation
19:12:54 <Vorpal> elliott, it is the stuff after that that takes ages
19:13:00 <elliott> Vorpal: that's just because Coq is slow as fuck
19:13:22 <Vorpal> elliott, ah but COQC contrib/setoid_ring/Field_tac.v took just half a second
19:13:42 <elliott> they don't require complicated thought :P
19:13:57 <Vorpal> elliott, what about these fast ones then:
19:13:59 <Vorpal> COQC contrib/setoid_ring/Field.v
19:13:59 <Vorpal> COQC contrib/setoid_ring/RealField.v
19:14:02 <elliott> Vorpal: (tactics are the little proof-searching/generating mini-programs used when proving stuff)
19:14:20 <elliott> reflexivity is a tactic, so is rewrite
19:14:28 <elliott> "auto" is a tactic, so is "auto with arith"
19:14:37 <elliott> (they can have more complex syntax than just "t x y z")
19:14:50 <Vorpal> elliott, yep, it is obvious that tactics have to refer to something like that, considering how it is used in other proving software
19:16:28 <elliott> i want to put OS X in a vm now :)
19:17:14 <Vorpal> elliott, what triggered that sudden urge?
19:17:55 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, iirc you *need* hw virualisation for it to work under virtualbox
19:18:09 <Vorpal> and it needs a lot of fiddling.
19:18:20 <elliott> Vorpal: It would probably work better with a Hackintosh (hate that word) build.
19:18:21 <Vorpal> elliott, doubt that will work actually
19:18:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you *still* need that iirc
19:19:18 <quintopia> what the hell did they change about the underlying unix (bsd?) that makes it so damn hard to virtualize?
19:19:32 <Vorpal> [download] 0.6% of 106.02M at 45.14k/s ETA 39:52 <-- fuck youtube
19:20:02 <Vorpal> no it isn't my connection that is loaded, and other stuff is fast when I try it
19:20:22 <elliott> quintopia: it's not BSD at the very bottom
19:20:29 <elliott> quintopia: at the bottom, it's Mach
19:20:42 <elliott> quintopia: then, it's a heavily(!)-modified FreeBSD kernel
19:20:52 <elliott> quintopia: then, it's some FreeBSD command-line stuff
19:20:53 <Vorpal> and other youtube videos download fast
19:20:58 <elliott> quintopia: oh, and remember that this all happened on ppc
19:21:01 <elliott> and *then* they ported it all to x86
19:21:11 <elliott> probably they used a lot of FreeBSD x86 code
19:21:23 <elliott> it's an x86->ppc->x86 port in some ways
19:21:40 <elliott> quintopia: also ofc they've never attempted to make it run on anything but apple hardware for obvious reasons
19:21:44 <elliott> which is rather unconventional
19:22:09 <Vorpal> quintopia, stuff that makes it hard: requires EFI, tries to validate it only run on actual apple hardware, very limited support for hardware that apple don't use in their computers
19:22:13 <elliott> they don't make their hardware incompatible for the fuck of it :)
19:22:26 <Vorpal> thank god there is mac pro, otherwise it would probably not even have a generic VGA driver
19:22:37 <elliott> Vorpal: ITT: Laptops have display ports too
19:22:38 <Vorpal> because mac pro needs that if someone puts in an unsupported card
19:23:02 <Vorpal> elliott, external ports are completely irrelevant here :P
19:23:19 <quintopia> elliott: yes, they do. they say "we only support the hardware we support, and we're not wasting any time or money developing support for all your other fucking shit"
19:23:59 <elliott> quintopia: which is an entirely different thing from them changing the hardware for the hell of it.
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19:24:56 <quintopia> i'm sure they had a much better reason than "for the hell of it"
19:25:02 <quintopia> something to do with the bottom line
19:25:13 <elliott> quintopia: and 9/11 was an inside job
19:25:45 <quintopia> and ehird is stallman's alternate personality
19:27:04 <elliott> quintopia: you... i'm the one saying that apple aren't changing their hardware configurations just to stop people using OS X on other machines, and you call me a zealot?
19:28:01 <elliott> you don't consider stallman a zealot?
19:28:28 <quintopia> i think he's enough of a zealot he needs an alternate personality into which to channel his less zealotous aspects
19:28:55 <quintopia> or maybe i should say, stallman is ehird's alternate personality
19:29:15 <quintopia> and you're channeling your subconcious zealotry into that public image
19:30:09 <quintopia> so does that rotaninrub guy ever talk?
19:32:27 <quintopia> (also, re: previous discussion. it seems we agree in some sense and you thought i disagreed in a different sense)
19:38:43 <quintopia> lol, this new falling sprite looks like moonwalking
19:40:26 <elliott> quintopia: make it rotate constantly in a ball
19:41:56 <quintopia> they will be psychonauts style doubles
19:42:23 <elliott> i like how you've taken over designing his game.
19:43:12 <Vorpal> <quintopia> lol, this new falling sprite looks like moonwalking <-- hm where?
19:43:19 <quintopia> well, i have to. how else can i prevent him from fucking it up :D
19:43:39 <quintopia> Vorpal: too late. the moonwalking version is non-production.
19:44:55 <quintopia> dear gregor: rename the project "Websplat" immediately kthx
19:47:26 <quintopia> rhode island is neither a road, nor an island: discuss amongst yaselves
19:48:19 <Vorpal> elliott, actually, coq just finished compiling
19:48:28 <elliott> <elliott> so, flinix; discuss
19:50:14 <quintopia> oh look, it doesn't work for me either
20:08:18 <Vorpal> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
20:08:32 <Vorpal> this package gives you a Makefile.config.example and leaves the rest to you
20:10:08 <Vorpal> libapron, which is a dependency for some features in why that I want
20:10:18 <elliott> nothing wrong with makefile.config :P
20:10:53 <Vorpal> elliott, not in general no, but it asks stuff like where GMP or MPFR can be found
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20:11:00 <Vorpal> elliott, stuff that could be easily autodetected
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20:12:11 <Vorpal> -std=c99 -U__STRICT_ANSI__ <-- fun
20:15:50 <quintopia> GREGOR: http://filebin.ca/yosxja/croucherl.png.tar.gz
20:16:41 <quintopia> Gregor: for jumping, switch to croucher before taking off for only a couple of ms, then go to jumper0, then halfway through flight jumper1, then at peak, briefly, faller0, then rapid alternation of faller1 and faller2 as usual.
20:21:56 <elliott> Vorpal: oh god, #debian has fallen prey to But What Do You Want To Do, Really, I Mean With Your Life Syndrome:
20:22:00 <elliott> <somiaj> drasko: how about we go back to your original problem, what is it you are trying to do?
20:22:00 <elliott> <elliott> <drasko> Hi all. GCC cross compilation complains about missing MPC. What debian packet to look for ?
20:22:03 <elliott> <somiaj> well was more thinking what he is wanting to cross compile, why is he doing such a thing
20:22:09 <elliott> YOU MUST JUSTIFY WANTING TO DO ANY SINGLE THING
20:22:17 <elliott> we refuse to answer your specific questions. totally not because we don't know the answers
20:22:25 <elliott> we just want to help you do it in the most bestest, debianest way. totally.
20:24:46 <Vorpal> elliott, is that representative of the channel in question?
20:25:04 <elliott> Vorpal: it only requires one active person to do it to infect the channel
20:25:21 <elliott> Vorpal: other places prone to this: #python (this is basically *all* they do), ##c
20:25:46 <elliott> seriously, ask anything in #python and they'll just say "what are you doing?" and refuse to let you give anything but the design of your entire application
20:25:57 <elliott> then they tell you not to do that, and to do everything you're doing completely differently.
20:26:03 <elliott> because it's more P Y T H O N I C
20:26:34 <Vorpal> elliott, well, in this case it is indeed absurd. Sometimes however it is justified, when someone asks a too specific question, like "how do I get the stdlib function foo to do bar" when a better solution would be "use quux to do it instead, since it is already designed to do that"
20:27:18 <Vorpal> elliott, heck, when you are working on learning a new language with an extensive standard library that situation is quite common
20:27:22 <elliott> Vorpal: but not "how do i set the frobnicate register to X?" "why are you trying to do that?" "to floobidah the zigzag" "why?" "to provide an interface for my program" "don't do that, use iHyperTek(TM) instead" "fuck you" "*kicks*"
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20:28:29 <elliott> "how do I get iHyperTek(TM) to recoilise the dissipation?" "why?" "to provide an interface for my application" "don't do that, use the frobnicate register instead" "i will maim all your babies" "i'm infertile" "fuck you" "*kicks*"
20:28:30 <Vorpal> quintopia, no, you can't. You need to read the man page for them
20:29:21 <elliott> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231392 forty eight gigs of ram
20:29:25 <elliott> with two fan units of two fans each
20:29:44 <elliott> also newegg redesigned now it sucks lol.
20:29:52 <Vorpal> elliott, what sort of mobo do you need for that
20:30:21 <elliott> amd's processors would be decent
20:30:25 <elliott> if they used like half the power
20:30:47 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why you never see them in laptops
20:31:01 <elliott> "we're not as fast as our competitor at any reasonable price point, and your electricity bill will ensure that it's at least twice as expensive as the Intel equivalent in the long-run!"
20:31:06 <elliott> "at least we're slightly less evil."
20:31:30 <quintopia> meh, intel is pretty damn good at doing business and i don't begrudge them for it
20:31:31 <elliott> Vorpal: did you know AMD processors are made in chinese sweatshops?
20:31:39 <elliott> and used solely by illegal computer hackers?
20:31:40 <quintopia> i begrudge them the poulsbo chipset fiasco
20:32:05 <elliott> quintopia: Doing business -- like when they told a manufacturer that only N of their laptops could use AMD processors, or their deal would go bye-bye?
20:32:43 <elliott> Doing business, like selling customers tons of processors with locked features and making them pay to unlock, online, features of their CPU that they have, physically?
20:32:43 <quintopia> but think of the little chinese children!
20:32:45 <elliott> That's just called being jerks.
20:32:56 <elliott> quintopia: they use chinese adults.
20:33:20 <pikhq> Children aren't sufficiently resistant to the toxic chemicals to last long enough.
20:33:25 <elliott> [[If your son has requested a new "processor" from a company called "AMD", this is genuine cause for alarm. AMD is a third-world based company who make inferior, "knock-off" copies of American processor chips. They use child labor extensively in their third world sweatshops, and they deliberately disable the security features that American processor makers, such as Intel, use to prevent hacking. AMD chips are never sold in stores, and you will mo
20:33:25 <elliott> st likely be told that you have to order them from internet sites. Do not buy this chip! This is one request that you must refuse your son, if you are to have any hope of raising him well.]]
20:33:35 <quintopia> well, the do provide sources for all their in-house drivers in order to actively support linux compatibility. that counts for something.
20:33:59 <elliott> http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.12.2.42056.2147.html
20:35:29 <elliott> damn that Linyos Torovoltos.
20:36:34 <elliott> "If your son has undergone a sudden change in his style of dress, you may have a hacker on your hands. Hackers tend to dress in bright, day-glo colors. They may wear baggy pants, bright colored shirts and spiky hair dyed in bright colors to match their clothes. They may take to carrying "glow-sticks" and some wear pacifiers around their necks. (I have no idea why they do this)"
20:37:12 <quintopia> hackers=candy kids. everyone knows this.
20:37:58 <elliott> quintopia: have you got a spare radiator in your house that i could borrow?
20:38:06 <elliott> ((preferably not the radioactive kind))
20:38:23 <elliott> quintopia: can i hook up heatpipes to you
20:38:34 <quintopia> also, i have a non-functioning AMD-having computer next to me
20:38:54 <elliott> quintopia: i... am not sure how that is a radiator :D
20:39:01 <elliott> unless you mean turning it on
20:39:12 <elliott> in which case i'm obliged to inform you that radiators do not generate heat out of nothing :p
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20:39:18 <elliott> in fact i want one to get rid of heat!
20:39:26 <elliott> quintopia: see, here's how you make a fanless computer:
20:39:39 <elliott> - copper. heatpipes. on. every. motherfucking. thing.
20:39:42 <elliott> - gigantic. fucking. radiator.
20:39:53 <elliott> quintopia: bigger the radiator, more awesome your system can be.
20:40:07 <elliott> note: hooking things up to a radiator is probably a gigantic pain :P
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20:41:13 <quintopia> elliott: they also make radiators for people who want MORE heat: http://www.oscarsolarwaterheaters.net/images/3.gif
20:41:41 <elliott> quintopia: the idea is that you hook that up.
20:41:49 <elliott> ...of course that only works with a watercooled system
20:41:55 <elliott> quintopia: but, i mean, think what a radiator does
20:42:04 <elliott> gets a bunch of hotness, radiates it into the air, heat all gone
20:42:12 <elliott> quintopia: now think what a watercooled system does
20:42:16 <elliott> heat warms water, heat now in water, heat all gone
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20:42:18 <quintopia> elliott: in a car, it does it with a fan. wouldn't your fanless computer be better with a fan?
20:42:22 <elliott> water goes to radiator, radiator put water in air
20:42:40 <elliott> quintopia: "Better" as in more efficiency for the heat vs. radiator space... sure.
20:42:44 <elliott> quintopia: You do this to have a silent system.
20:42:54 <elliott> Because you're anal as fuck.
20:43:18 <quintopia> then you just put your radiator outdoors...like an A/C unit
20:44:42 <elliott> quintopia: that's more of a bitch to set up.
20:45:10 <quintopia> well, you can also use the geothermal cooling system
20:45:24 <quintopia> just pipe the hot water underground in a grid around your house
20:45:46 <quintopia> no fan needed, temp goes down to ~65 year-round
20:47:51 <Vorpal> <elliott> quintopia: You do this to have a silent system. <elliott> Because you're anal as fuck. <-- err, there are other reasons. For use in recording studios comes to mind
20:48:10 <quintopia> recording technicians are anal as fuck
20:48:16 <Vorpal> quintopia, 65 is very hot
20:48:27 <quintopia> also, the computers don't go in the same room as the microphones duh
20:48:49 <Vorpal> quintopia, what is that in C?
20:49:25 <Vorpal> quintopia, use Kelvin if you prefer
21:03:22 <elliott> http://graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html is such a wonderful page
21:03:32 <Vorpal> elliott, ocaml question: this think looks for a library but expects it to be [...]/lib/foo.cxma, it is [...]/lib/foo.cma, what is the difference and can I just substitute the latter for the former?
21:03:53 <elliott> Vorpal: got no idea there, but:
21:03:56 <elliott> ... $(a).cxma) $(if $(BYTE_ENABLED), $(a).cma) Basically, if you have a line ...
21:04:01 <elliott> Vorpal: seems like .cma is bytecode
21:04:06 <elliott> Vorpal: I would recompile foo with the native code compiler.
21:04:14 <elliott> Failing that, try substituting.
21:04:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought it was native
21:04:39 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. So NATIVE = 1 was not respected I guess...
21:05:24 <Vorpal> elliott, is the ocamlopt the native one?
21:05:35 <Vorpal> well what the fuck then
21:05:39 <Vorpal> it compiled using that
21:05:49 <elliott> This chapter describes the Objective Caml high-performance native-code compiler ocamlopt, which compiles Caml source files to native code object files and link these object files to produce standalone executables.
21:05:55 <elliott> Vorpal: well, try substituting.
21:06:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well, file thinks it is bytecode
21:06:09 <elliott> Vorpal: well, try substituting.
21:06:12 <elliott> it may work with bytecode anyway
21:06:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it will probably be a bit slow and this thing uses native code elsewhere s
21:06:42 <elliott> Vorpal: ocaml's bytecode is insanely fast for bytecode
21:06:57 <Vorpal> elliott, can you mix byte and native in a single program?
21:13:11 <Vorpal> oh right, figured out how to build native ones
21:13:32 <Vorpal> apart from NATIVE=1 you had to set HAS_OCAMLOPT=1
21:13:38 <Vorpal> which was not documented at all
21:13:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I found that only by digging in makefiles!
21:14:06 <Vorpal> elliott, is all of the ocaml world this insane?
21:14:57 <elliott> Vorpal: People -- at least when I used OCaml -- tend to tell you to use GODI (http://godi.camlcity.org/godi/index.html).
21:15:07 <elliott> Which is Yet Another Language-Specific Package Manager except this one builds OCaml for you too.
21:15:15 <elliott> And it sucks immensely, but uh... I would go insane doing all that manually.
21:15:20 <elliott> At least GODI does it for you.
21:15:20 <coppro> I like language-specific package managers... some people don't, but I do
21:15:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well, this one is not really very standard
21:15:41 <Vorpal> elliott, or do they include every single library there?
21:15:56 <elliott> Vorpal: What library is it?
21:16:16 <Vorpal> I'm starting to hate that library
21:16:38 <Vorpal> elliott, I had to rebuild it three times so far trying to get it sane
21:16:44 <elliott> Jc_annot_inference - [value] from source frama-c-Helium-20080701 (Score: 500)
21:16:55 * elliott searches for apron more concretely
21:16:59 <Vorpal> elliott, hm? well yes that is what I want to use it for
21:17:13 <elliott> so it has frama-c and its dependencies.
21:17:21 <elliott> Vorpal: frama-c version 2010-04-01
21:17:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I know, but apron is an *optional* dependency
21:17:35 <Vorpal> just a feature I really really really want
21:17:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I need 2.27 :P
21:17:50 <Vorpal> elliott, for one of the features I want
21:17:51 <elliott> Vorpal: do you need the ultimate latest apron?
21:18:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I don't know. I got it to build now anyway. I think
21:18:09 <elliott> Vorpal: btw you don't *have* to use coq for all this apparently but it appears to be the most recommended thing by far
21:18:20 <Vorpal> and it installed the *.cmxa
21:18:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I need it for the why part
21:18:30 <Vorpal> which is what I really need
21:18:36 <elliott> One of the main features of Why is to be integrated with many existing provers (proof assistants such as Coq, PVS, Isabelle/HOL, HOL 4, HOL Light, Mizar and decision procedures such as Simplify, Alt-Ergo, Yices, Z3, CVC3, etc.).
21:18:41 <Vorpal> frama-c + why 2.27 with apron
21:19:01 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but why then does why refuse to build at all without coq?
21:19:34 <Vorpal> elliott, and it can use several side by side, trying different ones to find one able to prove something
21:20:01 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:20:22 <Vorpal> checking for pvs... /sbin/pvs
21:20:22 <Vorpal> File descriptor 5 (/home/arvid/src/frama-c/why-2.27/config.log) leaked on pvs invocation. Parent PID 29670: /bin/sh
21:20:35 <Vorpal> elliott, it checks for pvs... only that is not the same pvs
21:20:44 <Vorpal> elliott, that is pvs from lvm2 btw
21:21:09 <Vorpal> configure: WARNING: PVS found but pvs -where did not work
21:21:23 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow).
21:22:07 <Vorpal> Floats : no (Coq library AllFloat.vo not found)
21:22:37 <olsner> Vorpal: obviously you're doing it wrong
21:22:39 <elliott> Vorpal: it seems you did not enable them properly
21:22:44 <elliott> Vorpal: btw putting ocaml shit into its own directory is a sane idea
21:22:58 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. I used ~/local/frama-c here
21:23:03 <Vorpal> since that is what I really care about
21:23:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and I already had to patch some hard coded "check for this in /usr/lib and /usr/lib/local" checks
21:23:52 <Vorpal> in one case the configure.in didn't want to produce a configure and I had to patch the configure directly
21:23:56 <Vorpal> which is quite painful
21:24:45 <elliott> Vorpal: once an ocaml package failed to build for me since i was on os x and it wanted gnu sed
21:24:53 <elliott> ended up linking gsed to sed, compiling, and delinking
21:26:06 <Vorpal> elliott, well, yeah... French people wtf
21:26:48 <elliott> Vorpal: what does pikhq recommend for snes emulation?
21:27:01 <Vorpal> elliott, why not ask pikhq directly?
21:27:05 <elliott> Vorpal: i tried to ping him
21:27:20 <Vorpal> elliott, probably that cycle-accurate-needs-a-monster-computer one
21:27:35 <Vorpal> elliott, if you don't have bleeding edge hardware I would suggest zsnes however
21:27:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't remember the name
21:27:47 <Vorpal> elliott, <some letter>snes iirc
21:27:56 <Vorpal> just go through the alphabet
21:27:57 <elliott> 1.33 ghz core 2 duo, 4 gigs ram, i'm sure i can handle it >:D
21:28:03 <Vorpal> elliott, likely tooo slow
21:28:14 <elliott> "The executive summary if you don't want to read my latest wall-of-text: bsnes the public project is now dead, however I will continue to develop the source code and release it periodically."
21:28:19 <Vorpal> elliott, cpu looks a bit on the weak side
21:28:35 <Vorpal> elliott, why is it dead
21:28:36 <elliott> "As it turns out, the problem of accuracy was not linear as I once naively believed, but exponential. That is to say, if emulating 90% of games requires 200MHz, then emulating 95% requires 400MHz, 97.5% requires 800MHz, etc. In other words, there are rapidly diminishing gains."
21:28:42 <elliott> http://byuu.org/articles/bsnes-future
21:28:58 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
21:30:36 <elliott> Vorpal: but eh, personal projects are fine :P
21:30:59 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, assholes seem to be the reason
21:31:12 <elliott> [[So back to my original point about ensuring games work in the future on all emulators. Even after five years of bsnes being out there, and me preacing these virtues everywhere I could, we had the Lennus II translation in 2009. A fan translation that only ran in ZSNES.
21:31:12 <elliott> I really tried, I put my vitriol aside, stepped in, and offered to help. I offered to work on the game, without even having the ROM hack source code, to track down and fix the problem. Only to come across a post by one of the authors on another forum some weeks later essentially calling me an asshole for being pedantic about it not running anywhere else, all the while putting "accuracy" in quotes as if it was a made-up term. Talk about gratitude.
21:31:12 <elliott> When I responded, it was of course denied that he was referring to me, the only person who ever brought it up. But I wasn't born yesterday.]]
21:31:29 * Sgeo does not know whether to be happy or scared that some woman asked him for his number
21:31:38 <elliott> OH GOD PEOPLE WANT MY NUMBER
21:31:55 <Sgeo> I never saw her before today
21:32:11 <Sgeo> I knew her for a few minutes
21:32:18 <elliott> people usually give other people their numbers after knowing them for years
21:33:16 <Vorpal> elliott, years is a bit on the extreme, could be months.
21:33:26 <elliott> Vorpal: it was extreme sarcasm.
21:34:09 <elliott> i thought you were actually carzy
21:34:58 <Vorpal> elliott, duh of course. Rather it could be a question of minutes if you have a reason for it.
21:35:23 <elliott> somehow i have a feeling there is a girl out there who does not have Sgeo's number
21:35:23 <Vorpal> but if a complete stranger walked up and asked for phone number I would be a bit confused
21:35:34 <quintopia> Sgeo: if she tried to grab your junk, she is probably a rapist
21:35:42 <elliott> quintopia: Nice heuristic.
21:35:57 <Sgeo> elliott, there are a lot of girls who don't have my number. The girl who asked today is not one of them.
21:36:00 <quintopia> ass pinches are flirty, junk squeezing is rape
21:36:11 <elliott> "She said she was going to kidnap me, rape me, and then dissect me, barbecue me and eat the pieces. She didn't grab my junk so I gave her my address."
21:36:31 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you do if someone emails you source code, but instead of taring or zipping it up, attaches all the files separately. And there are about 20 of them
21:36:31 <Sgeo> Come to think of it, I don't know how old she is. She looks a bit older
21:36:35 <quintopia> wait, who said anything about the inverse being true?
21:36:37 <Vorpal> this is somewhat annoying
21:36:42 <elliott> Vorpal: what do they want you to do with it?
21:36:53 <Sgeo> Also, she asked at what time I'm usually at the bus stop in the morning...
21:37:00 <Sgeo> That creeped me out a bit
21:37:03 <elliott> Clearly she is going to rape you. At the bus stop.
21:37:09 <quintopia> did she ask what kind of candy you like?
21:37:27 <Sgeo> I'm going to text her soon
21:37:46 <quintopia> Sgeo's gonna get some cougartail! woot.
21:37:49 <Vorpal> elliott, well, makes sure it works I guess, it is related to a project at university. So I really need to do this, it is in my interest as well.
21:37:51 <elliott> Vorpal: ok tl;dr bsnes isn't dead he just isn't advertising it any more due to idiots
21:37:59 <elliott> Vorpal: i was going to suggest, like
21:38:15 <elliott> Vorpal: mailing back a C program that does system("firefox <last measure url>")
21:38:18 <Vorpal> elliott, it is somewhat annoying, since they aren't supposed to all go into the same directory either
21:38:23 <elliott> "I fixed your code, can you check if this binary works on your system?"
21:38:32 <elliott> Vorpal: email back and ask for the archived version
21:38:37 <elliott> if they don't immediately do so, yell at them
21:39:50 <Vorpal> and where the fuck did the makefile go...
21:40:36 <Vorpal> and I think this got windows mangled, there is a suspicious UPPPER.FOO look about filenames that would fit into the 8.3 thingy
21:41:22 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: email back and ask for the archived version
21:41:43 <Vorpal> I was just looking further at the attachments in question
21:41:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:42:46 * elliott sets about compiling bsnes
21:42:57 <elliott> Minimum system requirements:
21:42:57 <elliott> Intel Atom, Intel Pentium IV or AMD Athlon processor
21:43:04 <elliott> Vorpal: recommended is just core 2 duo / phenom
21:43:11 <elliott> i... think i'll be just fine, thank you
21:43:33 <elliott> Vorpal: apparently it doesn't require even 1 GHz for cycle-accurate emulation
21:43:40 <elliott> at least that's the impression i got from his long blog post
21:44:42 <elliott> Vorpal: ouch: "Another critical failure has been in the method of archival itself. When dumping the ROM contents alone, this discards everything else about the game. For an emulator, this means there is no PCB layout information. In other words, we don't know where to map ROM and RAM to. The current state of SNES emulation is to use extremely elaborate hacks that essentially put ROM and RAM everywhere, even though the real cartridges didn't exact
21:45:29 <elliott> Vorpal: ah, the new gui is his own toolkit it seems
21:45:35 <elliott> with the qt one being unmaintained
21:45:36 <olsner> wtf, how can you put "rom and ram everywhere"?
21:45:44 <elliott> olsner: "extremely elaborate hacks"
21:45:52 <elliott> [[Yes, certainly. There are 1,442 unique Super Famicom (Japan) games, 720 unique Super Nintendo (US) games, and 534 unique Super Ninteno (Europe) games. This gives us a grand total of 2,696 unique games.]]
21:46:42 <Vorpal> what does "putting rom and ram everywhere" even mean?
21:47:23 <Vorpal> elliott, like, duplicating them to fill the address space? But then that surely would mess up other stuff
21:47:35 <elliott> I quote, "extremely elaborate hacks"
21:47:47 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed must be
21:47:55 <elliott> # profile-guided instrumentation
21:47:55 <elliott> # flags += -fprofile-generate
21:47:55 <elliott> # profile-guided optimization
21:48:24 <elliott> Vorpal: insane optimisation :P
21:48:40 <elliott> ui-phoenix/general/main-window.cpp:62: error: expected primary-expression before ‘]’ token
21:48:40 <elliott> ui-phoenix/general/main-window.cpp:62: error: expected ‘;’ before ‘{’ token
21:48:40 <elliott> ui-phoenix/general/main-window.cpp:67: error: expected primary-expression before ‘[’ token
21:48:45 <elliott> lemme guess, a missing header file
21:48:52 <elliott> fuck gcc/g++ error messages fuuuuuuuuck them
21:48:58 <Vorpal> elliott, actually that is quite nice when trying to find how fast it can go. I don't, and never have, used it for normal operation
21:49:04 <Vorpal> never even recommended anyone to do so
21:49:22 <elliott> systemLoadCartridge.onTick = []() {
21:49:22 <elliott> utility.loadCartridgeNormal();
21:49:37 <elliott> cpp := $(subst cc,++,$(compiler)) -std=gnu++0x
21:49:43 <olsner> not any valid form of c++ I recognize anyway
21:49:57 <elliott> So my g++ doesn't do C++0x, I guess.
21:50:16 <olsner> I think you need at least 4.3
21:50:21 <olsner> and probably 4.4 for some of it
21:50:27 <elliott> gcc version 4.4.5 (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.4.4-14ubuntu5)
21:50:28 <olsner> and/or 4.6 for the rest of it
21:50:51 <elliott> olsner: []() { ... } isn't exactly hard
21:51:12 <elliott> "GCC does not have lambdas in the current 4.4 version nor the in-development 4.5 version. See gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html for details of GCC's C++0x feature support – sstock Aug 5 '09 at 13:42"
21:51:13 <olsner> "Lambda expressions and closures: No"
21:51:40 <olsner> hmm, so how did someone manage to ever compile that code if there's no gcc version that supports it?
21:51:43 <elliott> New wording for C++0x lambdasN2927GCC 4.5
21:51:48 <elliott> olsner: also, it supports other compilers for other OSes
21:51:59 <elliott> which doesn't require c++0x :P
21:54:15 <elliott> $ make -j3 compiler=gcc-4.5 ui=ui-phoenix
22:03:25 <Vorpal> elliott, wow, one program decided that the installed ocamlgraph was too old and extracted a local tarball with *the same version number*
22:03:48 <Vorpal> elliott, that is just mindblowing
22:11:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
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22:18:08 <Gregor> quintopia: zomg these images are SO AWESOME.
22:20:59 <Gregor> Vorpal: The ones for webplat :P
22:21:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, also you should allow upgrades in the form of changing hats there
22:21:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, like, based on your own hat collection
22:21:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, based on your own, not like mario thus
22:21:55 <Gregor> Except that representing 30-odd hats in 7x4 pixels or whatever is quite a trick :P
22:22:21 <coppro> DO NOT LET IT STOP YOU
22:22:53 <oerjan> The Adventures of Hatman
22:23:09 <cpressey> mouse over the hat to see ZOOMED HI DEF image
22:23:38 <Vorpal> don't know what to do with
22:23:49 <Vorpal> well I guess it needs a parameter
22:24:06 <Vorpal> still, somewhat amusing error
22:25:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, technically 30 odd hats in 7x4 should be easy:
22:25:10 <Vorpal> $ echo $(( 7*4 * 255 * 255 * 255 ))
22:25:31 <Vorpal> most of them will look the same
22:25:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, ah good point too
22:25:56 <Gregor> But luckily, I have enough pixels to wear a rainbow box on my head.
22:25:57 <Vorpal> Gregor, some will look like hair, or just EMISSINGNO
22:26:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, do what cpressey said then ;P
22:26:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway, did you put up the updates images so it is possible to test it?
22:28:56 <cpressey> Gregor: *Do* you own a rainbow-hat of some sort? You ought to.
22:28:59 <Gregor> I've been gone all day, didn't see 'em.
22:29:05 <Gregor> cpressey: I do not. Donations welcome.
22:30:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, any idea where to find one?
22:30:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, what about a mushroom hat?
22:30:44 <Vorpal> (looks like the Toads in mario)
22:39:08 -!- catseye has joined.
22:43:25 <elliott> all this to play chrono trigger
22:43:54 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:44:30 <elliott> Vorpal: #1 thing i hate about console emulation: having to assign keys
22:44:45 <elliott> i totally need an adapter for every console's control
22:44:55 <elliott> Gregor: just have a selection of your favourite hats for various abilities
22:45:05 <elliott> Gregor: fez could be fire, say (it's red!)
22:45:22 <oerjan> the fez comes with a magic carpet
22:47:07 <elliott> "gconftool-2 --type bool --set /desktop/gnome/interface/menus_have_icons true"
22:47:20 <elliott> not entirely sure why it sets that :P
22:50:55 <elliott> Vorpal: have you got a chrono trigger rom? rom sites suck.
22:50:59 <elliott> (yes indeed, i've never played it.)
22:51:40 <fizzie> I could, hypothetically, you know, put one somewhere.
22:51:50 <elliott> fizzie: Hypothetically I would not hypothetically mind that.
22:51:59 <elliott> Huh, apparently the US release was made easier. Eh, who cares.
22:53:36 <fizzie> By playing the SNES original you're missing out on a huge pile of the most boringest fetch-quests in the whole wide world. (One of the DS port additions.)
22:54:22 <elliott> fizzie: Something said that the Japanese original is harder.
22:54:36 <elliott> And there was this TOTAL RETRANSLATION that fixed it and also fixed all the Engrish which, really, why are you even playing any more?
22:54:56 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, good, you're using BSNES, definitely the best SNES emulator.
22:55:20 <elliott> pikhq: On my memory of your recommendation!
22:55:27 <elliott> pikhq: Now let's see if it can do nice shit with 1.33 GHz.
22:55:57 <elliott> pikhq: It doesn't appear to have an option to scale the video though. That sads me, but whatever, the default size is okay.
22:56:06 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and, you do use the phoenix UI right?
22:57:02 <elliott> fizzie: Uhh, do I need L and R much to play Chrono Trigger?
22:57:05 <elliott> The amount of key bindings, they scare me.
22:57:35 <pikhq> elliott: The phoenix UI is fairly new; been using the Qt UI because that's got all the features.
22:57:44 <pikhq> The Qt UI, though, is no longer maintained.
22:58:00 <elliott> pikhq: Features are for LOSERS.
22:58:03 <pikhq> The current version of BSNES is the last version that will have it.
22:58:04 <elliott> pikhq: (What kind of features?)
22:58:12 <pikhq> Scaling the video for one. :P
22:58:12 <elliott> pikhq: It's keeping it, just not being maintained; at least according to his blawg.
22:58:16 <elliott> Maybe he posted something on the forums?
22:58:32 <pikhq> I'll probably port it to work via libsnes one of these days.
22:59:02 <elliott> pikhq: Mind, the default scaling setting seems about right.
22:59:15 <elliott> It couldn't handle another timesing and still be windowed on my screen, I don't think.
22:59:56 <fizzie> elliott: You need them to enter some "passwords", but not very many times. Something like twice. (You also will need to press L+R simultaneously at one point.)
23:00:18 <pikhq> elliott: I just use my PS3 controller for it, BTW.
23:00:21 <fizzie> And of course they're sort-of useful for flipping between characters inside the menus.
23:00:36 <elliott> I could hook up my GameCube controller :-P
23:00:40 <fizzie> Heh, I just use my PS3 controller too, even though I own not a PS3 either.
23:00:52 <pikhq> The PS3 controller is, I've found, pretty ideal for emulation.
23:00:52 <elliott> not also own controller I PS3.
23:01:02 <elliott> Okay; up/down/left/right are...
23:01:08 <elliott> Do I want to remap them to WASD? ...Naw.
23:01:13 <fizzie> pikhq: It doesn't have L3/R3, though. :/
23:01:39 <pikhq> fizzie: Those are the analog stick buttons, aren't they?
23:02:03 <elliott> pikhq: Heh, I just realised that low-keyboard bindings suck for me since I don't have an arm rest...
23:02:15 <elliott> Too lazy as fuck to change them though.
23:03:51 <elliott> Um, er, fizzie, that file you didn't give me, bsnes doesn't list it.
23:03:56 <elliott> Is .smc a specific format or something?
23:04:24 <pikhq> "Super MagiCom". One of those copier headered files.
23:04:46 <elliott> So get another ROM basically?
23:04:57 <elliott> Sorry fizzie even your hypothetical scenarios are inadequate.
23:04:57 <pikhq> elliott: Qt UI would handle it. Buut, you don't want that ROM. It's nasty.
23:05:05 <elliott> Sorry fizzie. You're nasty.
23:05:08 <elliott> pikhq: Gimme yer ROM bitch :P
23:05:17 <fizzie> Meh, all the GoodSNES files are .smc's, you know.
23:05:31 <fizzie> It's the industry standard.
23:05:33 <pikhq> fizzie: GoodSNES is a scourge.
23:05:51 <fizzie> s/scourge/easy way to get a whole pile of games/
23:06:17 <elliott> pikhq: Dood, I need a pointer to a ROM :P
23:07:05 <fizzie> But that's not on my disk. So a lot more complicated.
23:07:06 <pikhq> elliott: Would you like Chrono Trigger (NTSC)(Eng)(1.0), Chrono Trigger (NTSC)(Jap)(1.0), or Chrono Trigger - Sample ROM (NTSC)(Jap)(1.0)?
23:07:18 <elliott> pikhq: I can't read Japanese, if that matters :P
23:07:31 <pikhq> elliott: So, I'll upload the English one. :)
23:07:44 <elliott> pikhq: Why parens with no spaces between them, what possesses people to do this ugly
23:08:01 <pikhq> Not my naming scheme.
23:08:14 <elliott> [[The idea that spacetime may not be entirely smooth – like a digital image that becomes increasingly pixelated as you zoom in – had been previously proposed by Stephen Hawking and others. Possible evidence for this model appeared last year in the unaccountable “noise” plaguing the GEO600 experiment in Germany, which searches for gravitational waves from black holes. To Hogan, the jitteriness suggested that the experiment had stumbled upo
23:08:14 <elliott> n the lower limit of the spacetime pixels’ resolution.]]
23:08:17 <elliott> oerjan: you heard it here first
23:08:41 <fizzie> And re L3/R3, I think the DualShock2 analog sticks are buttons labeled like that, but the DualShock3 I have doesn't report anything if I try to push them down.
23:09:12 <elliott> pikhq: The DualShock 3 is wireless, right?
23:09:22 <fizzie> Oh, they're just *that* hard to push.
23:09:28 <fizzie> Never mind them, it does have those too. :p
23:09:28 <pikhq> (it has a USB port on it; you can plug it in.)
23:09:34 <elliott> pikhq: Yes... but that's uncomfortable!
23:09:39 <elliott> At least for where any computer would be.
23:09:45 <pikhq> It uses Bluetooth.
23:09:45 <elliott> What's wireless latency like?
23:10:05 <elliott> Kay. I'd just use that then.
23:10:14 <pikhq> elliott: http://filebin.ca/fqsxeb
23:10:17 <fizzie> I've been using the wireless side only with the N900, and haven't noticed any controller-related latency there.
23:10:28 <elliott> pikhq: Can I have the filenamed link? I'm a lazy ass. >_>
23:10:32 <elliott> (Or you could just tell me the filename.)
23:10:33 <fizzie> The Bluetooth pairing via USB is a bit silly though.
23:10:35 <pikhq> http://filebin.ca/fqsxeb/ChronoTriggerNTSCEng1.0.sfc
23:10:47 <elliott> pikhq: The filenames aren't in the naming scheme???
23:10:57 <pikhq> Filebin stripped stuff out.
23:10:58 <elliott> Way to have a pointless naming scheme, hero :P
23:11:06 <elliott> pikhq: "Chrono Trigger (NTSC)(Eng)(1.0).sfc", then?
23:11:50 <pikhq> And BTW, I have the entire set of FDS, Gameboy, Gameboy Color, Gameboy Advance, NES, SNES, and N64 ROMs for games that were *actually put on a cartridge at some point*.
23:12:02 <elliott> pikhq: Is the sound actually that glitchy-sounding, or do I have a stupid PulseAudio problem?
23:12:07 <quintopia> Gregor: Even in 2D, people can't reverse direction on a dime (on land...in the air, they have the ability to push off air molecules to provide infinite impulse), and as such, they must do a deceleration slide before taking off the other way.
23:12:13 <pikhq> elliott: Problem of some sort.
23:12:28 <quintopia> To this end, I present you with sliderl2r.png, which gives a rare glimpse of your face: http://imgur.com/Z4IwY
23:12:30 <pikhq> elliott: What video driver is it using?
23:12:41 <pikhq> elliott: It matters greatly.
23:12:45 <elliott> I can also use X11 or OpenGL.
23:12:49 <pikhq> elliott: Try OpenGL.
23:13:19 <pikhq> It'll do software scaling. And be slow.
23:13:22 <elliott> audio is set to pulseaudio; maybe the default ALSA is the best even when using ShitAudio.
23:13:32 <elliott> Input = SDL should be fine I asume
23:13:51 <oerjan> elliott: um i'm pretty vaguely sure i've already seen it somewhere, possibly it was on reddit before
23:14:02 <elliott> pikhq: Audio: PulseAudio, OpenAL, OSS, PulseAudio, PulseAudioSimple, libao
23:14:07 <elliott> I have PulseAudio. WhaddoIdo :P
23:14:10 <elliott> oerjan: that article was, I meant
23:14:14 <elliott> oerjan: we talked about rounding errors in physics
23:15:07 <elliott> pikhq: Do I want both synchronise video and synchronise audio on?
23:15:18 <elliott> Only the latter was on in the default config.
23:19:35 <elliott> Vorpal: http://byuu.org/images/bsnes_20100814.png
23:19:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Okay, so basically, you only need a super-fast computer if you go with the 100% accuracy profile.
23:19:56 -!- An7iVi2uS has joined.
23:20:12 <elliott> pikhq: Probably worth recompiling the Qt UI, isn't it?
23:20:25 <oerjan> An7iVi2uS: your spelling is no match for my tab complete
23:22:53 <elliott> pikhq: Do I want the compatibility or performance profile?
23:24:46 -!- An7iVi2uS has left (?).
23:24:48 <elliott> An7iVi2uS: we're all racists here! of glorious matter convert.
23:24:54 <elliott> cool oerjan can't even slap me for being weird to the newbie
23:25:10 <elliott> <oerjan> SEE IF I CAN'T *kickban*
23:25:23 <oerjan> all racists? i didn't even _mention_ him connecting from israel
23:25:33 <elliott> in fact i only noticed it after typing that
23:25:50 <elliott> i was just being incomprehensible. as always
23:26:08 <oerjan> of course Slereah has monopoly on such jokes here, that filthy jew.
23:26:20 <elliott> pikhq: Gah, it doesn't correct aspect ratio by default.
23:26:59 <elliott> pikhq: So, uh, is Qt-Raster any good?
23:28:52 <oerjan> what the heck is "glorious matter convert" anyway
23:29:27 <elliott> although: great name for a band
23:29:31 <elliott> The Glorious Matter Convert
23:29:42 <oerjan> not a frequently used phrase, i detect
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23:39:26 <pikhq> elliott: Qt-Raster is shitty.
23:39:51 <pikhq> elliott: Performance works quite well, but introduces bugs in a very small handful of games.
23:40:06 <pikhq> ... That hardly anybody even cares about.
23:40:14 <elliott> pikhq: Right now I'm just thinking "Kitten has no shitty sound systems".
23:40:22 <elliott> Does PulseAudio even run on non-Linux?
23:41:11 <pikhq> Even if it manages to stop sucking?
23:41:24 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:42:00 <pikhq> Admittedly, this is about as likely as my being teleported 2 feet to the left.
23:42:11 <elliott> pikhq: Even if it stops sucking.
23:42:22 <elliott> There's another sound system that doesn't suck and it's called everything that isn't PulseAudio.
23:42:58 <Gregor> quintopia: OK, I added the new frames.
23:43:05 <Gregor> quintopia: I can't seem to formulate an opinion, so make your own :P
23:43:24 <Gregor> quintopia: Err, sorry, only the new jumping and falling frames, not crouching or turning.
23:44:13 <quintopia> but how can you jump forcefully without crouching first?
23:44:20 <elliott> video.windowed.hwFilter = 0^M
23:44:20 <elliott> video.windowed.swFilter = 0^M
23:44:20 <pikhq> elliott: How do you feel about JACK?
23:44:33 <elliott> pikhq: JACK is uh, I have no problem with it although apparently it's a bitch and... why do you need it?
23:44:47 <pikhq> elliott: I was honestly just wondering about your opinion on it.
23:44:52 <elliott> pikhq: I was speaking hypothetically.
23:44:52 <pikhq> That's seriously *it*.
23:45:29 <pikhq> Well, JACK lets you do this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Jack-connecting_audio.png
23:45:39 <elliott> As far as I can tell, JACK is what you use when you use ALSA and thus your latency sucks :P
23:45:47 <elliott> I mean, use it if you want, I won't begrudge you :P
23:48:09 <elliott> pikhq: God, PulseAudio just ... sucks.
23:48:19 <elliott> I... it literally makes good audio impossible.
23:49:14 <elliott> The following packages will be REMOVED:
23:49:14 <elliott> indicator-sound{a} libcanberra-pulse{a} pulseaudio{p}
23:49:14 <elliott> pulseaudio-esound-compat{a} pulseaudio-module-bluetooth{a}
23:49:14 <elliott> pulseaudio-module-gconf{a} pulseaudio-module-x11{a} ubuntu-desktop{a}
23:49:14 <elliott> 0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 8 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
23:49:15 <elliott> Need to get 0B of archives. After unpacking 3,858kB will be freed.
23:49:17 <elliott> Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]
23:49:19 <elliott> pikhq: Do I fucking do it?
23:49:22 <pikhq> Hmm. Seems that the only real options out there are JACK and PulseAudio for something with an audio *server*. Aaaand JACK seems to be the only usable one.
23:49:49 <pikhq> And since there's not many reasons to use JACK, clearly OSS is the only sound system.
23:50:23 <elliott> pikhq: Do I fucking do it?
23:51:02 <elliott> pikhq: But dude, my volume control.
23:51:31 <elliott> http://0pointer.de/lennart/lennart.png <-- needs anal raping so he can know what horrors he has unleashed upon the world
23:51:34 <elliott> DAMN YOU LENNART POETTERING
23:52:05 <elliott> "Thanks to PulseAudio, the Linux audio experience is becoming more context-aware. For example, if a video is running in one application the system should now automatically reduce the volume of everything else and increase it when the video is finished."
23:52:40 <Sgeo> Sound system wars1
23:52:43 <elliott> [[However, the future of PCM audio is floating points. Mixing them in kernel space is problematic because (at least on Linux) FP in kernel space is a no-no. Also, the kernel people made clear more than once that maths/decoding/encoding like this should happen in userspace. Quite honestly, doing the mixing in kernel space is probably one of the primary reasons why I think that OSS4 is a bad idea. The fancier your mixing gets (i.e. including resamp
23:52:44 <elliott> ling, upmixing, downmixing, DRC, ...) the more difficulties you will have to move such a complex, time-intensive code into the kernel.]]
23:53:02 <elliott> pikhq: "I'm not as good at programming kernel code as the OSSv4 developers, so clearly you should use PulseAudio instead."
23:53:09 <elliott> "OSS4 does a lot of signal processing (resampling, mixing) in the kernel. That is a big no-no, it's verboten in the Linux world."
23:53:15 <elliott> "The kernel is supposed to include drivers, not processing algorithms."
23:53:23 <elliott> The kernel is supposed to not suck, too. It doesn't.
23:53:31 <elliott> "In its current form OSS4 would have exactly zero chance to even be considered by the Linux kernel people."
23:53:41 <elliott> Other things that have zero chance of being considered by Linux kernel people: Sanity
23:53:48 <elliott> "If you'd rip out all the mixing, resampling, conversion, remapping then not much would be left of OSS4, except that a slightly updated OSS3 API."
23:53:58 <elliott> Whereas with PulseAudio, if you removed all the suck, you'd have a README. If that.
23:54:04 <elliott> "Then, the driver support in ALSA these days is actually much better than OSS4 since a lot of hw manufacturers nowadays work with the Linux community to improve the in-kernel drivers."
23:54:08 <elliott> So since ALSA is so great, use PulseAudio.
23:54:12 <elliott> "OSS4 doesn't have that advantage."
23:54:21 <elliott> pikhq: I will stop now but RRRRGH
23:55:14 <elliott> pikhq: http://cdn.idg.com.au/gim/id/20602/res/18 dear god a little kid owns my linux sound system
23:55:20 <elliott> why can't it be a competent little kid, like me
23:55:36 <elliott> I hereby reassign my obligatory I am high as a kite quote.
23:55:38 <elliott> "It's pretty obvious that the complaints and criticisms about PulseAudio you can hear in some forums are not really shared by the vast majority of technical people"
23:55:38 <cpressey> drivers ARE processing algorithms JEEZ
23:56:01 <elliott> ("Translation of ... to Plain English" articles are, by law, required to translate at least one quote to "I am high as a kite.")
23:56:27 <pikhq> elliott: That's... Pretty damned ridiculous.
23:56:51 <pikhq> elliott: Isn't mixing closer to the actual output significantly better?
23:56:59 <elliott> pikhq: but dude, Linux is a kernel of PURITY
23:57:14 <cpressey> so pure it gets me high as a kite
23:57:17 <elliott> before every commit, Torvalds prints out the diff
23:57:24 <elliott> and then, when he feels the need to shit
23:57:33 <elliott> and he shits out a pure brick of light
23:57:41 <elliott> he then flattens this brick with a rolling pin
23:57:55 <elliott> then he uses an algorithm to convert this pure fecal brick of light back into a diff
23:58:02 <elliott> this is why Linux is perfect
23:58:19 <elliott> because of Linus Torvalds' digestive system and anus
23:58:37 <pikhq> http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/06/state-of-sound-in-linux-not-so-sorry.html
23:58:38 <elliott> pikhq: ok totally removing pulseaudio
23:58:58 <pikhq> I love how going from libalsa to kernel-level ALSA has the highest latency always.
00:00:02 <elliott> pikhq: I no longer have a volume control, but I do have my freedom.
00:02:38 <quintopia> also: bottom of page=platform and top of page=no boundary
00:02:51 <elliott> pikhq: WHY IS ALSA CONFIG IN /USR/SHARE/ALSA
00:02:58 <elliott> WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO /ETC
00:04:03 <elliott> pikhq: I think that Linux is just too shitty to run bsnes well on this hardware.
00:04:15 <elliott> pikhq: Sorry dude, I think I might install ZSNES until I get Kitten working :<
00:04:45 <elliott> quintopia: I thought that then I learned how it worked.
00:04:57 <elliott> Sound being my only problem with bsnes.
00:05:30 <elliott> It's like rain on your wedding day.
00:05:34 <pikhq> elliott: SNES9x at *least*.
00:05:47 <pikhq> elliott: ZSNES is absolutely *horrid*.
00:05:56 <elliott> pikhq: I just, Linux hates me.
00:05:59 <pikhq> elliott: SNES9x at least has niceties like "correct sound emulation".
00:06:08 <pikhq> Yes, ZSNES's sound emulation is broken beyond belief.
00:06:15 <elliott> So bsnes is out of the question until my OS is something more than a piece of wool balanced on top of a stick.
00:06:17 <elliott> And the stick is cracking.
00:06:22 <elliott> That's basically my impression of Linux.
00:06:24 <pikhq> Works just fine for me. :P
00:06:26 <fizzie> pikhq: But it doesn't have a water effect for the mouse cursor!
00:06:27 <elliott> (NetBSD is something akin to a very heavy stone.)
00:07:27 <fizzie> I seem to recall some DOS NES emulator (Nesticle?) having this really "kewl" dripping-blood theme.
00:07:49 <elliott> Cursor almost looked like a testicle even.
00:08:03 <elliott> pikhq: Snes9x goes at perfect speed. :/
00:08:14 <pikhq> Snes9x is quite a bit faster.
00:08:18 <fizzie> Well, hands are very related to testicles anyway.
00:08:36 <elliott> pikhq: Would tweaking with latency help?
00:08:38 <pikhq> It works in all the Linucks of the world.
00:08:40 <elliott> Higher is better, right? :P
00:08:53 <elliott> pikhq: IT'S A SETTING TWEAKING IT DOES THINGS HELP HELP
00:09:28 * olsner tries the sleeping thing
00:12:09 <pikhq> elliott: For the sake of curiosity, I think I'm going to encode a lossless video with x264 and see how much space it takes.
00:12:52 <Sgeo> x264 is lossless?
00:12:58 <Sgeo> Also, "lossless video"?
00:13:08 <Sgeo> You mean, encode with x264 losslessly?
00:13:28 <pikhq> Sgeo: x264 can do lossless encoding, yes.
00:15:35 <pikhq> Just set the quantiser to 0 and voila.
00:16:13 <cpressey> why don't these horrible things just get deleted
00:16:51 <cpressey> ZSNES. PulseAudio. why can't i rm them
00:17:16 <cpressey> why do others insist of keeping their reference counts above zero
00:17:34 <elliott> cpressey: drunk again i see :P
00:18:54 <elliott> pikhq: Things I don't like: Scaling filters
00:18:57 <Gregor> I think I just totally broke my good keyboard.
00:19:34 * elliott utter keyboard nerd who has no good keyboards due to apathy and money!
00:19:44 <quintopia> so, snes9x does sound emulation excellently, but sucks balls at mouse emulation. maybe if i ran it in fullscreen mode it'd be less annoying.
00:20:22 <quintopia> i only have one keyboard, and it gets replaced regularly due to spills mostly
00:20:35 <pikhq> elliott: SNES mouse.
00:21:29 <elliott> pikhq: I hereby approve of Snes9x for those of us who use terrible OSes.
00:21:48 <pikhq> elliott: It's imperfect but a *hell* of a lot better than ZSNES.
00:21:51 <elliott> pikhq: Even if Chrono Trigger's opening sequence makes no sense at all.
00:22:00 <elliott> Things are happening! I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE
00:22:05 <pikhq> elliott: Which, BTW, has been unmaintained for 6 years.
00:22:10 <elliott> cpressey: Oh, incomprehensible spoilery opening sequences?
00:22:19 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, 3 years.
00:22:21 <elliott> "First episode, here's what's gonna happen in the next ten!"
00:22:25 <cpressey> elliott: i am setting the MOOD
00:22:33 <pikhq> And it's written in x86 assembly.
00:22:34 <Gregor> elliott: You just asked me what keyboard I use, then BEGGED me not to tell you.
00:22:47 <elliott> Gregor: By... mentioning I'm a keyboard nerd?
00:22:54 <elliott> I totally saw those bikes on the 3D PLANE
00:23:04 <elliott> Gregor: Oh just tell me, I'm using a terrible one now.
00:23:19 <elliott> I'll just make a snide remark about it not classing as "good" and leave it at that.
00:23:29 <elliott> pikhq: Seriously, does this opening sequence make any fucking sense at all?
00:23:33 <quintopia> dear people who use snes9x: is there a tag to make it automatically lower my resolution and fullscreen instead of windowing?
00:23:37 <elliott> ...IT GOES BACK TO THE START
00:23:44 <elliott> So that's what I had to do.
00:24:07 <pikhq> elliott: I've not played Chrono Trigger. :)
00:26:58 <fizzie> Wait is more turn-based than active.
00:27:42 <elliott> fizzie: Oh so those are the two modes for the actual game?
00:27:43 <fizzie> And you press start in some name-entering thing and in the start screens, but after that it's mostly just abxy.
00:27:55 <elliott> fizzie: Which is the "proper" one?
00:28:01 <elliott> Please don't say "there's no proper one".
00:28:13 <fizzie> Active is for "real men", yes.
00:28:28 <elliott> Am I super-boring if I just use "Crono"
00:29:42 <elliott> Gotta say, those graphics are amazing.
00:29:51 <elliott> I... this is totally not my mental image of "SNES".
00:30:10 <elliott> pikhq: I, whatever the first Super Mario Bros. game for it was numbered.
00:30:19 <pikhq> elliott: Super Mario Bros. 3 is NES.
00:30:39 <elliott> Dear God the colours are nice.
00:30:47 <elliott> Dear GOD the colours are nice.
00:30:55 <pikhq> elliott: http://www.mariowiki.com/images/d/d0/SMWMvsB.png
00:30:56 <elliott> No mom, YOUR bell makes such beautiful music. Wait, what?
00:31:21 <pikhq> elliott: And that was a launch title.
00:31:26 <elliott> I wonder if everyone is the same height in this game.
00:31:36 <elliott> I wonder why the bottom few pixels are unused.
00:32:03 <pikhq> elliott: The SNES had a lot more power in it. And even more if you stuck a RISC chip onto the cartridge!
00:32:41 <elliott> Uhh, can I actually do anything before I go downstairs? To anyone who knows.
00:32:45 <elliott> I haven't mastered these controls yet.
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00:36:39 <quintopia> snes9x (this version) is unplayable with mouse and keyboard afaik
00:37:36 <pikhq> Y'know, I'm quite sad that sticking CD-quality audio in games wasn't practical until recently. I would love to play FF6 without synthesised music.
00:38:22 <Sgeo> Had no idea who I was
00:38:29 <Sgeo> And I could barely understand her accent
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00:39:30 * elliott wonders if Sgeo actually cried there
00:40:42 <Sgeo> But I think I hung up on her on accident
00:40:52 <elliott> pikhq: wow, she doesn't give you your allowance unless you talk to her twice
00:41:18 <elliott> pikhq: I wonder who the hell the Japanese think they're portraying with their families.
00:41:37 <elliott> Always single mother, always says the exact same thing to the kid
00:41:42 <elliott> Always an almost-identical house
00:42:18 <elliott> pikhq: I... a guy is walking on the spot. Emulation issue?
00:43:55 <Gregor> Keyboard has nearly restored itself.
00:47:07 <cpressey> liquid metal self-restoring TERMINATEROR keyboard
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00:51:12 <oerjan> elliott: japanese fathers are never home, you know.
00:51:12 <elliott> Cool, gold is worthless in this game.
00:51:22 <elliott> oerjan: And Japanese houses are TINY
00:51:30 <oerjan> work during day, drink during night
00:51:32 <elliott> You can get arbitrary gold here just by pressing a button at the right time ten times.
00:51:41 <oerjan> (and the drinking is also work)
00:52:00 <elliott> oerjan: psht that's clearly the Norwegians</baseless>
00:53:31 <oerjan> yep. baseless, that is.
00:54:24 <elliott> pikhq: I saved to a save slot on the cart. Am I a bad person?
00:55:28 <pikhq> elliott: Awesome. I appear to be getting 15,000 kbit/s for this LOSSLESS x264 encode.
00:56:16 <pikhq> elliott: For comparison, a DVD is generally 9,000 kbit/s or so.
00:56:52 <pikhq> Approximately doubling the storage space would let us have lossless 480p.
00:57:25 <pikhq> ... I'll try that later. Quite a bit later.
00:57:38 <elliott> Wow, this random girl I just met sure is dedicated to following a few pixels behind ,e/
00:57:41 <elliott> pikhq: with FLAC soundtrack
00:57:43 <pikhq> (I'd need to download the uncompressed video)
00:57:46 <pikhq> elliott: Well, of course.
00:58:07 <elliott> "They're still setting up! Why not go and figure out what you're supposed to do before we let you in."
00:58:22 <elliott> Come, random girl who follows a few pixels behind me.
00:58:28 <elliott> Let us find our quest as you get in my way annoyingly.
01:01:15 <pikhq> elliott: This is actually a low enough bitrate that it would be ENTIRELY FEASIBLE to stream lossless 720x480 video over ATSC if the spec allowed.
01:01:48 <pikhq> The American digital terrestrial television standard.
01:02:21 <pikhq> The only real reason we use it instead of DVB is that ATSC broadcasts started before DVB was invented.
01:02:43 <elliott> The only time America has ever been ahead of the curve.
01:03:03 <pikhq> ATSC's at least not a terrible standard.
01:03:26 <elliott> "This Kingdom's been through a lot, like the war against Magus, 400 years ago."
01:03:36 <elliott> Oh, you fought a guy 400 years ago. Such hardship you peaceful motherfuckers face.
01:03:40 <elliott> Not even Switzerland has that kind of record.
01:05:25 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, so the one I selected was basically "pseudo-realtime battles"
01:05:56 <pikhq> Yup. That's the Active Time Battle system for you.
01:06:05 <elliott> pikhq: Am I... meant to like that?
01:06:28 <pikhq> It'll either grow on you or make you very glad that it fell out of style.
01:06:45 <pikhq> My Elephant's Dream encode is 1.2G
01:06:51 <pikhq> And 100% lossless.
01:06:56 <elliott> My elephant's dream encode is 1.2G.
01:07:42 <elliott> "Jurassic (music symbol) rhythm (music symbol)"
01:07:45 <elliott> Them some prehistoric lyrics.
01:08:00 <pikhq> This is, in fact, ENTIRELY PRACTICAL.
01:10:10 <pikhq> Now, then. 1080p, you say?
01:10:16 <pikhq> 46GB uncompressed.
01:10:34 <pikhq> And it doesn't exist in such a format.
01:10:57 <pikhq> Lemme grab the PNGs, then.
01:10:59 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway a dual-layer Blu-Ray can store 50 gigs.
01:11:04 <pikhq> y4m is just much more *convenient*.
01:11:05 <elliott> pikhq: Are dual-layer Blu-Rays okay?
01:11:23 <elliott> pikhq: I remember with DVDs it kinda sucked.
01:11:47 <pikhq> elliott: That's called a "shitty encode".
01:12:25 <elliott> pikhq: Or do I not mean multiple layers...
01:12:34 <elliott> pikhq: I may mean double-sided.
01:14:39 <pikhq> elliott: There's two ways to do a dual-layer DVD.
01:14:55 <pikhq> The second layer can start from the inside or the outside of the disc.
01:15:08 <pikhq> With it starting at the outside of the disc, the transition time is essentially nil.
01:16:01 <pikhq> Anyways, hooray, 21G of PNGs.
01:16:16 <pikhq> I anticipate the x264 will be similar in size.
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01:43:45 <catseye> someone ought to computerize Spawn of Fashan. on a really objectionable platform, like, MS-DOS w/CGA graphics. ALSO: it should crash a lot, for full effect.
01:52:54 <Gregor> MythBusters is finally testing "When the shit hits the fan"
01:54:09 <oerjan> *boggles* *facepalm* *boggles*
01:56:21 <pikhq> Well, that's fun. It seems that mplayer seems to fail at a crazy, crazy Matroska file with lossless video and audio.
01:57:11 <oerjan> it's matryoskas all the way down
01:58:04 <pikhq> It seems to have trouble with the *FLAC* in there.
01:58:35 <pikhq> It handles being told to play a seperate AVI and WAV file just fine.
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02:24:17 <catseye> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Commodore-64-Quintic-Warrior-Quicksilva-/110597345971
02:24:25 <catseye> "you will never discover MY roots, challenger!"
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02:31:58 <calamari> Gregor: The requested URL /webplat/webplat.js was not found on this server.
02:33:21 <calamari> oh I see, he changed it to loader.py
02:33:24 <Gregor> calamari: Name changed, load method changed, recreate your bookmarklet from http://codu.org/websplat/
02:33:40 <Gregor> loader.js should work ...
02:33:45 <catseye> i was wondering what .py was involved for
02:34:21 * Gregor doesn't read properly :P
02:34:35 <Gregor> Anyway, yeah, remake your bookmarklet :P
02:34:58 <Gregor> You haven't web*lat'ted in a while :P
02:35:07 <calamari> weird, I can't seem to double-jump through "Some pages I recommend platforming on: "
02:35:13 <Gregor> You can thank quintopia for the images.
02:36:12 <calamari> oh, yes I can, guess I just needed more height
02:40:47 <calamari> falling off then clicking it again to load another copy produces very interesting results lol
02:41:33 <pikhq> http://i41.tinypic.com/a4ymva.png This is an actual frame from a Bluray. HOW DO YOU ENCODE THAT POORLY.
02:41:58 <pikhq> MPEG2 at those bitrates can produce better.
02:44:24 <calamari> Gregor: if there are 2 lines of text, I can't jump through.. is that by design?>
02:44:50 <Gregor> calamari: You can only jump through one (z-ordered stack of) element(s).
02:45:25 <calamari> oh so it's the one above it that is stopping me
02:45:26 <catseye> calamari: try increasing the font size! or disabling css!
02:45:34 <catseye> i have no idea what will happen if you try those, btw.
02:52:17 <calamari> interesting.. after you fall all the way off, you still get one final jump
02:53:58 <catseye> "tar: TAP: file changed as we read it"
02:54:25 <catseye> or is tar actually a gang of little gnomes?
03:02:51 -!- calamari has set topic: Mandelbrot stabbed to death; on autopsy, authorities found smaller version of Mandelbrot inside | TOO SOON | http://is.gd/g4ullllID.
03:07:39 <calamari> ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooopppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
03:07:39 <calamari> pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
03:07:39 <calamari> uuuuuuuuuu;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
03:07:45 <calamari> mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmlllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll///////////////////////''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''/
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03:10:15 <calamari> bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbboops sorry .; b
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03:10:37 <oerjan> SOMEONE IS NOT TAKING A HINT HERE
03:13:32 <catseye> the um,link in the topic goes nowhere now
03:13:55 <catseye> also, was he drawing a mandelbrot set? i can only hope, but i don' think so
03:15:18 -!- catseye has set topic: Mandelbrot stabbed to death; on autopsy, authorities found smaller version of Mandelbrot inside | TOO SOON | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
03:16:04 <oerjan> it doesn't look much like a mandelbrot set
03:16:42 <catseye> maybe in 300 columns and really large.....mmmstill no.
03:17:20 <oerjan> only the first two lines even resemble each other, but a part of the mandelbrot set still wouldn't look like that
03:17:46 <catseye> conclusion: he was drawing it *poorly*.
03:19:08 -!- catseye has set topic: Mandelbrot stabbed to death; on autopsy, authorities find smaller version of Mandelbrot inside | TOO SOON | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
03:19:15 <catseye> newspaper headline grammar
03:20:29 -!- oerjan has set topic: Mandelbrot 'stabbed to death'; on autopsy, authorities 'find smaller version of Mandelbrot inside' | TOO SOON | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
03:20:38 <oerjan> no _this_ is newspaper headline grammar
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04:50:43 <Gregor> Things I wish I had known about: document.elementFromPoint
04:51:04 <Gregor> Why does it have a name inconsistent with all the other getElement* functions? Because Microsoft made it.
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05:18:12 <fungot> catseye: so in pi calculus, join calculus, etc. they can also sell copies of software ( the gnu project has written things like gcc, mozilla, and probably breaks horribly in lots of hitchcock films, the fnord
05:22:08 <coppro> pikhq: http://www.fantasyscotus.net/
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06:13:30 <catseye> netcat, on cygwin, doesn't do the -e thing it seems -- at least not for MY bot.
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06:20:03 <fizzie> Re the topic, a Finnish parody newspaper web thing announced Mandelbrot's death with something like (badly paraphrased) "The decades-long project to measure the boundary of Benoît Mandelbrot had to be discontinued on Thursday.
06:21:11 <fizzie> The project, started in 1967, took significantly longer than expected, as the perimeter of Mandelbrot grew longer every time the researchers switched to more accurate methods of measurement.
06:21:58 <fizzie> According to the latest measurement, made with an electron microscope, Mandelbrot was longer than the British coastline."
06:22:02 <fizzie> And so on, and so forth.
06:25:42 <fizzie> Well, since I went that far, I might do the last sentence too: "The experts described the challenged faced by the project also with exact mathematical expressions, but of that the reporters, having received a social science education, did understand nary a thing."
06:36:19 <fizzie> Uh, well, http://lehti.samizdat.info/2010/10/mandelbrotin-aariviivan-pituuden-mittaus-keskeytettiin/ to that particular piece.
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07:41:36 <Ilari> Is there any fractal that does not have boundary length go to infinity as the scale appoaches zero?
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10:07:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: ping <-- pong
10:09:03 <Vorpal> elliott: for log reading purposes: I realised that trying to prove anything useful about much of libc is useless, for example, take strlen(), you can't even say anything about it really because there might not be any \0 byte.
10:10:10 <Vorpal> it is easier to prove useful properties for stuff like memcpy and so on that takes a max length parameter
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10:53:35 <ais523> Vorpal: you can prove that strlen returns the length correctly if given a null-terminated string
10:54:55 <ais523> meanwhile, on the C module I'm trying to TA: <me> you can't use scanf("%s") because it leads to a buffer overflow if the user gives more input than the size of the buffer <another TA on that module> can't you just use sizeof()
10:55:02 <ais523> I do not have high hopes for this module...
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11:01:04 <fizzie> That is very impressive.
11:01:30 <Vorpal> ais523, yes indeed. Hm I wonder how to express that to frama-c, I'm not completely sure it is possible
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11:06:27 <fizzie> "Teaching assistant", I'd guess.
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11:43:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, got any good suggestion for safe prefix for identifiers in library code? _ is for the standard and __ is for libc. ___ looks a bit silly... And so does prefixing parameter names in the headers with the library prefix
11:44:08 <Vorpal> (and I can't just skip them, since there will be formal verification comments referring to those in the headers)
11:46:47 <fizzie> Not triple-underscores, at least.
11:47:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, it looks so silly that no one else uses it
11:47:15 <fizzie> Yes, but it still looks so silly.
11:48:37 <fizzie> I'm not sure what would be sensible, though. Any non-odious things I can think of are more or less conflict-prone.
11:49:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, error prone is something I want to avoid everywhere in this case.
11:52:13 <fizzie> As a quick poll: the SDL/OpenGL/glib headers at least include parameter names but don't seem to use any sort of prefix.
11:53:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, true, but I don't want defines from something like ncurses messing up, which is infamous for doing just that.
11:54:35 <fizzie> Add libpng to that list of no-prefix names, though the libpng parameter names are so silly ("void png_destroy_write_struct(png_structpp png_ptr_ptr, png_infopp info_ptr_ptr);") that maybe they don't need any.
11:54:44 <fizzie> It's like reverse hungarian notation.
11:55:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, amusing define from deep in glibc:
11:55:25 <Vorpal> /* This is not a typedef so `const __ptr_t' does the right thing. */
11:55:25 <Vorpal> #define __ptr_t void *
11:55:37 <Vorpal> the comment makes sense certainly but... why define that at all
11:56:36 <fizzie> It's a nice tradeoff: you get "const __ptr_t" working, but on the other hand multi-declarations like "__ptr_t a, b" then won't.
11:57:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, well yeah, but why do they define that thing at all
11:58:09 <fizzie> I don't really know. Maybe they don't like the * character?
12:00:01 <fizzie> Maybe it's for when they try to port glibc to a compiler that doesn't support void pointers?
12:02:23 <fizzie> Hey, void's a new feature, you can't expect everyone to support it yet.
12:03:43 <fizzie> Seminar session time real soon now, I wonder what it's going to be about.
12:04:03 <fizzie> "Multi-task learning with kernel and nonparametric methods"
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13:44:31 -!- elliott has set topic: Mandelbrot 'stabbed to death'; on autopsy, authorities 'find smaller version of Mandelbrot inside' | TOO SOON | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
13:45:31 <elliott> 17:14:39 <pikhq> elliott: There's two ways to do a dual-layer DVD.
13:45:31 <elliott> 17:14:55 <pikhq> The second layer can start from the inside or the outside of the disc.
13:45:31 <elliott> 17:15:08 <pikhq> With it starting at the outside of the disc, the transition time is essentially nil.
13:45:43 <elliott> pikhq_: would it work to transition to another layer, say, in the middle of fast action?
13:47:47 <elliott> 18:41:33 <pikhq> http://i41.tinypic.com/a4ymva.png This is an actual frame from a Bluray. HOW DO YOU ENCODE THAT POORLY.
13:47:47 <elliott> 18:41:58 <pikhq> MPEG2 at those bitrates can produce better.
13:49:03 <elliott> `addquote 21:18:12 <fungot> catseye: so in pi calculus, join calculus, etc. they can also sell copies of software ( the gnu project has written things like gcc, mozilla, and probably breaks horribly in lots of hitchcock films, the fnord
13:49:04 <fungot> elliott: also more fat burns better. there's no finer-grained editing than page-level atm. you may want to just do
13:50:19 <elliott> 02:09:03 <Vorpal> elliott: for log reading purposes: I realised that trying to prove anything useful about much of libc is useless, for example, take strlen(), you can't even say anything about it really because there might not be any \0 byte.
13:50:58 <elliott> (exists n. byteAtLocEq (p+n) 0) -> strlen n = n
13:51:05 <elliott> (exists n. byteAtLocEq (p+n) 0) -> strlen p = n
13:51:27 <elliott> Vorpal: of course you could package that up as nullTerminated p
13:51:32 <elliott> nullTerminated s -> strlen s = n
13:51:54 <elliott> of course you'd probably not be able to have them as actual coq functions without some zaniness
13:52:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, if you really care that much about stuff being correct that you formally prove it you probably don't want to use C strings anyway
13:52:17 <elliott> 03:43:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, got any good suggestion for safe prefix for identifiers in library code? _ is for the standard and __ is for libc. ___ looks a bit silly... And so does prefixing parameter names in the headers with the library prefix
13:52:20 <elliott> surely ___ is reserved for libc
13:52:37 <Vorpal> elliott, no __ is for libc, and _ is for the standard
13:52:45 <elliott> Vorpal: if you care about it being formally proven and you want to write it in C you're either controlling a nuclear reactor or stupid.
13:53:19 <Vorpal> elliott, but then __ is for C standard since _ is, and __ has prefix _
13:53:38 <Vorpal> I think it says "followed by alphanumeric letter" or such, I need to check that
13:54:19 <elliott> things I wish I could do: tell apt "I want ubuntu-desktop, but not this one dependency (*cough* pulseaudio) and you just have to accept that."
13:55:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I wish the same.
13:55:39 <Vorpal> there are a few more ones that just pulseaudio I wish to avoid
13:55:42 <elliott> Vorpal: instead, I'm just going to try to install ubuntu-desktop every now and then, note the new packages, and install them :P
13:55:58 <elliott> Cough, Ubuntu One, cough, but that isn't depended on by ubuntu-desktop.
13:56:19 <Vorpal> elliott, hm forgot, I think it used to depend on openoffice or something in older releases.
13:56:26 <Vorpal> seems that is just recommends nowdays
13:56:38 <elliott> fuck openoffice with a rusty chainsaw
13:56:56 <elliott> it's perhaps the only office suite worse than Office
13:57:07 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, there was some other thing too, evolution.
13:57:22 <elliott> what's wrong with having evolution installed, even if you don't use it?
13:57:28 <elliott> it's not like ubuntu isn't full of such stuff anyway
13:57:48 <elliott> and you can hide it from the memories and try and forget about the disk space it's using up
13:58:10 <Vorpal> elliott, you could just disable pulseaudio and not uninstall it?
13:58:13 <elliott> Vorpal: interesting, I have libpulse but no pulseaudio.
13:58:19 <elliott> Vorpal: you *can* do that, but it's a bitch
13:58:28 <Vorpal> elliott, not just an init script?
13:58:31 <elliott> also I think to hide the indicator applet icon for the pulseaudio audio stuff it's uh
13:58:37 <elliott> you have to uninstall it maybe? or just fuck with the files
13:58:43 <elliott> and that would probably break ubuntu-desktop if the former
13:58:50 <elliott> Vorpal: no, because it also redirects ALSA to PulseAudio
13:59:15 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's to be expected, it's reasonable to do if you actually want it
13:59:59 <Vorpal> elliott, exactly do you expect anything relating to sound more advanced than the build in pc speaker to be sane under linux ;P
14:00:07 <Vorpal> wait, that one isn't sane either
14:00:16 <Vorpal> it shows up in /dev/input
14:00:17 <elliott> that sentence took a while to parse...
14:00:38 <Vorpal> typoing typo is kind of awkward
14:00:44 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, the only way i've managed to get a sane interface to linux audio that also works well is OSSv4
14:01:00 <elliott> decent API (from what I gather), proper /dev files that work reasonably and mix properly
14:01:15 <elliott> and it actually makes Flash audio sync up
14:01:28 <elliott> Vorpal: but OSS on Ubuntu is just ... lol
14:01:37 <Vorpal> elliott, there are a few alsa drivers that actually have low latency and so on. But they are the exception rather than the norm
14:01:42 <elliott> the repository version is old. the non-repository version is a pain to set up.
14:01:48 <Vorpal> luckily my sb live card is one of the exceptions
14:02:26 <Vorpal> elliott, as for flash audio sync, how comes video syncs fine with audio when watched in, say, mplayer or vlc?
14:02:42 <elliott> Vorpal: well if you're me it doesn't, not when using pulseaudio or alsa :)
14:02:53 <elliott> Vorpal: (2) flash uses OSS all the time, I think
14:02:59 <elliott> (so obviously it's faster without a translation layer)
14:03:01 <Vorpal> hm that would explain parts of it
14:03:10 <elliott> Vorpal: (3) nspluginwrapper is insane and god knows what it does to desync everything up.
14:03:16 <Vorpal> elliott, it even syncs up on my thinkpad, with intel hd audio
14:03:30 <elliott> and i hate nspluginwrapper and HURRY THE FUCK UP ADOBE RELEASE THE 64-BIT VERSION.
14:03:37 <elliott> Vorpal: i have intel hd audio but... yeah
14:03:41 <elliott> alsa, not a fan. pulse, not a fan.
14:03:51 <elliott> alsa is not a fan of my card
14:04:04 <Vorpal> elliott, well thinkpad uses alsa with pulse. Because so far I haven't had sync issues I never bothered replacing it
14:04:41 <elliott> Vorpal: In this case I decided to just get rid of PulseAudio when it was too shitty to handle bsnes giving it 32khz audio :P
14:05:33 <elliott> pikhq_: re: that screenshot
14:05:35 <elliott> pikhq_: "The project team was able to produce a x264 video compliant Blu-ray. The first and most important stone from which to build authoring programs.
14:05:35 <elliott> The content already present on the network and released under a permissive license, were compressed at a rate sufficient to be burned on a standard DVD disc."
14:05:45 <elliott> pikhq_: i.e. "We're innovators! Also, pointless goal that makes quality useless!"
14:06:19 <elliott> note: google translate is *great* at italian -> english
14:07:55 <elliott> It's official; Empathy is so bad that I'm installing Pidgin.
14:08:38 <fizzie> You must be some sort of a robot to so completely lack any empathy.
14:08:47 <fizzie> (Or maybe a replicant.)
14:09:33 <elliott> Or a replicator! http://www.yehppael.com/images/uploaded/0000/0006/img-21.jpg Although that makse little sense.
14:12:56 <fizzie> Just to add one more data point: I don't have any AV sync issues when it comes to (regular) video playback through pulse/ALSA (except for one bluetooth headset which is pretty flaky everywhere), and haven't bothered to replace it because (a) Ubuntu and (b) I actually use Pulse's "use pavucontrol to route audio from different apps to different devices in one easy, centralized way" feature; I guess that's not something OSSv4 does? (Though perhaps if I just did pe
14:12:56 <fizzie> r-application symlinks to /dev files and some sort of custom kludge to manipulate those.)
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14:14:25 <fizzie> http://www.opensound.com/wiki/index.php/Tips_And_Tricks -- that mess re "add a "vmixctl attach" command to the $OSSLIBDIR/soundon.user file" makes it sound uncomfortably close to fiddling with asoundrc's. :p
14:16:01 <elliott> fizzie: It isn't actually /dev-based.
14:16:06 <elliott> OSS is nothing like old OSS :P
14:16:32 <fizzie> Well, again, I was just going by http://www.opensound.com/wiki/index.php/Tips_And_Tricks "Changing the default sound output" -- "The typical method is to relink /dev/dsp to the desired /dev/oss/.../ device."
14:16:46 <fizzie> That sounds pretty old-fashioned.
14:17:11 <elliott> fizzie: Files; very old-fashioned.
14:17:26 <fizzie> What is that if not "/dev-based", though?
14:17:47 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I'm pretty sure there's an API that doesn't actually touch any /dev files.
14:17:56 <elliott> Presumably it treats /dev/dsp as configuration.
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14:19:21 <elliott> fizzie: I actually don't know, but I do know that it works perfectly.
14:19:28 <elliott> And doesn't feel hacky or anything.
14:21:44 <fizzie> Well, I'm just looking at this http://manuals.opensound.com/usersguide/ and from what I can tell, you're certainly supposed to configure "where does this sound go" in the application doing the playback, which is something I don't like, because so many apps tend to hide that thing in all kinds of uncomfortable places. (I don't mind "hacky", though.)
14:22:20 <elliott> I don't do crazy shit like that, but, uh, I'd trust the wiki more than the manual.
14:22:26 <elliott> Documentation is one thing I do not believe it is so strong on.
14:23:11 <fizzie> The whole discussion is a bit academic, since my laziness is so endemic I'm sure I couldn't be arsed to switch from "whatever Ubby does by default" unless (until?) things actually break.
14:27:47 <elliott> fizzie: OSSv4 is a pain to get working on Ubuntu because Ubuntu sucks, so yeah.
14:34:35 <elliott> Uhh, you can't resize Pidgin's text box thing to be only one line by default, can you?
14:40:21 <elliott> Due to political reasons, they are not distributed with GNOME unfortunately."
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14:45:00 <Ilari> Certain flags could be used to annoy certain people...
14:45:43 <elliott> http://developer.pidgin.im/raw-attachment/ticket/2367/pidgin201gui.jpg "I will now point out your UI's flaws using badly-spelled red on black, great big red borders around things I already have arrows pointing to, and Fixedsys as one of my main fonts."
14:45:51 <elliott> "Also, I will spell any word greater than six letters long incorrectly."
14:46:02 <elliott> (Okay, so there's only two typos, but come on.)
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14:52:56 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq_: re: that screenshot
14:52:56 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq_: "The project team was able to produce a x264 video compliant Blu-ray. The first and most important stone from which to build authoring programs.
14:52:56 <elliott> <elliott> The content already present on the network and released under a permissive license, were compressed at a rate sufficient to be burned on a standard DVD disc."
14:52:56 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq_: i.e. "We're innovators! Also, pointless goal that makes quality useless!"
14:53:12 <elliott> <elliott> 17:14:39 <pikhq> elliott: There's two ways to do a dual-layer DVD.
14:53:12 <elliott> <elliott> 17:14:55 <pikhq> The second layer can start from the inside or the outside of the disc.
14:53:12 <elliott> <elliott> 17:15:08 <pikhq> With it starting at the outside of the disc, the transition time is essentially nil.
14:53:12 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq_: would it work to transition to another layer, say, in the middle of fast action?
14:55:35 <pikhq> Yeah, it's small enough that the buffer takes up the slack.
14:55:57 <pikhq> Also, some DVD players can do the switch to the other layer start effectively instantly; hooray, buffering.
15:01:41 <elliott> Wow, Chrono Trigger's graphisc are awesome.
15:04:07 <elliott> Oh look at that, I've gone back just in time for the war.
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15:18:04 <cpressey> elliott: Tonight. It shall happen.
15:18:14 <elliott> cpressey: How many hours is "tonight"?
15:18:18 <cpressey> I'm a little irritated by Maverick, tbh.
15:18:20 <elliott> I cannot miss the achtung.
15:18:56 <cpressey> eh. yeah, you usually log off less than an hour before i get back online at home.
15:19:56 <elliott> cpressey: I TOTALLY SUGGEST THE WEEKEND
15:20:05 <cpressey> (like it will be SO ENTERTAINING from your end to see me disappear, then reappear 20 minutes later saying "I can't get the network up"_
15:21:21 <cpressey> but yes, weekend is probably a better plan
15:21:55 * cpressey can't wait to see the NetBSD One Online Music Store plugin for madplay though
15:22:03 <cpressey> (see? it doesn't even make any sense, right?)
15:26:16 <elliott> cpressey: You are quite thoroughly insane.
15:26:22 <elliott> <cpressey> (like it will be SO ENTERTAINING from your end to see me disappear, then reappear 20 minutes later saying "I can't get the network up"_
15:26:29 <elliott> also it takes longer than that :P
15:28:18 <Gregor> DISCOVERY: document.elementFromPoint
15:28:25 <Gregor> FURTHER DISCOVERY: document.elementFromPoint is effectively unusable.
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15:31:50 <elliott> Gregor: You must make moving elements work. Wanna know why?
15:32:15 <Gregor> Without elementFromPoint being tolerable, I /can't/. Period. But why?
15:32:17 <elliott> Gregor: Marquees as moving platforms.
15:32:26 <elliott> Gregor: Jumping at the right time to avoid falling from blinking ones.
15:32:35 <Gregor> The movement of marquees isn't detectable from within JS anyway.
15:32:45 <Gregor> All you know is the box.
15:33:03 <elliott> Gregor: JS is unsuitable for this?
15:33:24 <Gregor> Doing it directly in WebKit would be hell on Earth.
15:33:36 <Gregor> Doable, but I'd sooner castrate myself with a rusty soup spoon.
15:35:36 <elliott> Gregor: Use WebKit, write the bulk of it in JS, but for special bits have WebKit-using C++ that exposes marquee positions and other useful stuff to JS?
15:35:57 <Gregor> That's exactly what I'm referring to.
15:36:08 <Gregor> Hacking out the part of WebKit that draws that, detecting whereTF it's putting things, and barfing that back to JS = hell on Earth.
15:36:19 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah because this is an easy project :P
15:36:29 <Gregor> Up until now it has been.
15:36:38 <elliott> Gregor: Yay another dormant Gregor project
15:37:33 <Gregor> Yes, "I'm not adding a pointless feature that would take me a week of work" = "I'm abandoning this project"
15:39:30 <Gregor> Oh, and which would significantly reduce the userbase. From "whoever wants to" (tens) to "whoever downloads this and compiles a hacked WebKit into a browser" (zero)
15:40:10 <cpressey> Gregor: Can you not write your own elementFromPoint? Sounds "easy".
15:40:51 <Gregor> cpressey: Uhh, how am I writing elementFromPoint not in terms of elementFromPoint? Iterating over every element and checking if it's there?
15:43:39 <Gregor> I suppose I could have an "enhanced" hacked-WebKit branch and a "normal" unhacked-WebKit branch ...
15:43:59 <Gregor> And if I implemented a non-shitty getElementsByRect into the enhanced one ...
15:45:36 <elliott> <Gregor> Oh, and which would significantly reduce the userbase. From "whoever wants to" (tens) to "whoever downloads this and compiles a hacked WebKit into a browser" (zero)
15:45:44 <elliott> I meant making it a standalone application.
15:45:55 <elliott> Just embed a webkit widget in a window. Done.
15:46:07 <elliott> This also gets rid of having to make it a bookmarklet.
15:46:35 <elliott> Gregor: So how is elementFromPoint useless?
15:47:02 <Gregor> It's too damned slow because:
15:47:25 <Gregor> 1) It only returns the highest-zIndex element at the point, so I need to CSS-modify that and recurse to get every element.
15:47:41 <Gregor> 2) It's only by-point, not by-box, but I'm doing box-box collision detection here.
15:48:50 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, I'm totally gonna say "Write ultra-trivial application that just starts up a window with WebKit on some page (put a URL box there or something, the "start level") that automatically injects the JS into any non-starting page. (That would be, what, 200 lines at the most? Surely.)
15:49:01 <elliott> Then you can add little enhancements for the JS code when you want.
15:49:21 <Gregor> That is not the hard part. At all. That's the already-done part.
15:49:39 <cpressey> Gregor: Oh, I wasn't thinking about the "realtime" version, if things are changing. Just, survey every element, record its BB (in a quadtree?), test points in that structure.
15:49:43 <elliott> Gregor: You already have an application?
15:50:02 <Gregor> cpressey: That's more-or-less exactly what I'm already doing.
15:50:05 <elliott> Gregor: I'm just saying, do that and ditch the bookmarklet model. Then you can add stuff when you want without making shit change.
15:50:17 <Gregor> cpressey: I was hoping elementFromPoint would help me make it dynamic :P
15:50:20 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, and you could load the JS from the web, so that updates would be automatic unless you added some WebKit stuff...
15:50:25 <elliott> (Which could easily just tell you "yo upgrade")
15:50:26 <Gregor> elliott: Well OBVIOUSLY you ditch the bookmarklet if you're doing it that way.
15:50:44 <elliott> Gregor: Sheesh, I know it gives equivalent functionality, I'm just saying: Do this now and the amount of work later is decreased :P
15:51:22 <Gregor> Out of curiosity, have you ever compiled WebKit? Have you ever hacked its build system at all?
15:51:34 <elliott> Gregor: ...you wouldn't need to?
15:51:51 <Gregor> I would need to give its library a name unambiguous from "real" WebKit.
15:51:51 <elliott> I'm assuming that its API is good enough to add a proper elementFromPoint replacement.
15:52:01 <elliott> You could *link to actual WebKit*.
15:52:09 <elliott> All you're doing is binding some C++ stuff to JS.
15:52:20 <Gregor> Suddenly I have 100% more understanding of what you're suggesting X-D
15:52:23 <elliott> Gregor: Is that laughter or "oh, right, do the *obvious* thing" :P
15:52:50 <Gregor> OK, so that idea has just gone from "wtf, hacking WebKit = I want to kill myself"
15:52:59 <Gregor> To "ahh, simply providing the necessary interfaces"
15:53:01 <elliott> To "elliott is a design GOD"
15:53:14 <elliott> Gregor: Note: I just filed for a patent on "Linking to WebKit to make a game"
15:53:57 <elliott> Gregor: Darn, it just came back. Apparently there's already a patent for that
15:54:06 <elliott> Only I'm litigious enough.
15:54:20 <elliott> "There's a patent for that. From Apple."
15:57:04 <elliott> pikhq: Does libavcodec do replaygain?
15:57:35 <elliott> Gregor: I wonder if you could actually get the "real" bounding box of a marquee...
15:57:55 <elliott> I guess internally, it actually has "100%" width, and just scrolls like that.
15:58:03 <elliott> But you could get the bounding box of all elements inside.
15:58:10 <elliott> Gregor: Of course it'd be easier with JS that actually moves stuff.
15:58:15 <elliott> Now to find a page that actually does that!
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16:00:09 <Gregor> elliott: Right now I don't even support JS that /adds/ stuff, e.g. Facebook's dynamic content.
16:00:24 <elliott> Gregor: I bet WebKit's API lets you hook into newly-created elemeeeents :P
16:00:47 <Gregor> I wouldn't need to if I just exposed a fast getElementsByRect.
16:01:01 <elliott> haha, you know Yvette's Bridal Formal?
16:01:08 <elliott> the worst designed website in the world?
16:09:18 <cpressey> I am aware of the work of Yvette, yes
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16:13:29 <elliott> cpressey: http://yvettesbridalformal.com/Fastings1.html -> "please click here to see what you came to see" -> http://yvettesbridalformal.com/Psychological_Thriller_Horror_Success.html
16:13:36 <elliott> [[There used to be alot more conspiracies, death letters, FEMA cover ups, but it seems like theyve been adding new material every so often. I'll edit this post later to make sure I link the yahoo answers community to other odd pages...feel free to use anything you find as a source. A bunch of us have been working on this site for weeks now trying to come up with something, but we keep coming to dead ends.]]
16:13:40 <elliott> Apparently she has a son who's either Schizophrenic or mentally ill
16:13:40 <elliott> Yvette no longer works there
16:13:40 <elliott> When company is called, there seems to be a snooty or suspicious person who picks up. Any questions pertaining to the website ends in a quick "Have a happy 2009"]]
16:13:47 <elliott> cpressey: tl;dr more than just a terrible web designer
16:15:06 <elliott> Gregor: Does installing plash on a system do anything weird to it? should I use a chroot?
16:15:14 <nooga> anyone played with Open MPI ?
16:15:27 <elliott> nooga: iirc cfunge has some openmpi code. lawl
16:17:44 <elliott> holy shit "/x/ discovered Yvette's a while ago, and they are 100% serious alien conspiracy theorists."
16:17:56 <cpressey> elliott: Ah. I thought you were going to tell us of the super fun of WebPlat on that page
16:18:02 <elliott> cpressey: tried that earlier
16:18:06 <elliott> it was super fun, but this is even funner
16:18:17 <elliott> dear god http://yvettesbridalformal.com/FineArtPanamaCity19.html
16:18:35 <elliott> [[A couple of guys from /x/ actually drove out there and talked with them and took some pictures in front of the place. The Yvette's site blogged about it later, but I'll be damned if I can find anything on that site.
16:18:36 <elliott> Apparently they told them that they were from an online magazine looking to investigate the link between the US government and aliens, and the Yvette's people talked with them (warily) for a good length of time.]]
16:18:41 <elliott> http://www.yvettesbridalformal.com/interview1.html
16:19:03 <elliott> "...........I didn't even know there was a
16:19:03 <elliott> magazine named UFO Magazine..........when I got
16:19:03 <elliott> to my PC I searched and sure enough, there is a
16:19:03 <elliott> magazine/Ezine of the title UFO
16:19:16 <elliott> "Frank seemed like an honest and decent sort of
16:19:16 <elliott> fellow......just an ordinary, regular guy.........like
16:19:16 <elliott> maybe someone who would ask you if he could
16:19:16 <elliott> borrow your lawnmower and actually bring it
16:19:16 <elliott> back to you after he mowed his lawn.............."
16:19:36 <elliott> cpressey: this is the greatest thing ever
16:20:03 <nooga> i'm trying to setup a small ompi cluster in a laboratory on my university
16:20:19 <elliott> the most famous painting in the world..........The
16:20:19 <elliott> Last Supper by Leonardo da Vinci.......the two
16:20:19 <elliott> central figures leaning away from each other to
16:20:19 <elliott> form a perfect V and on either side of the
16:20:20 <elliott> refectory hall, 4 tapestries for a total of 8.......
16:20:22 <elliott> yes, V8 encoded right there in broad daylight for
16:20:24 <elliott> all the world to see.........
16:20:26 <elliott> and why is everyone out of printer ink for their
16:20:32 <elliott> cpressey: "The Last Supper has a hidden encoded message, now what IS it with printer ink?"
16:20:51 <cpressey> it's way too early for this level of intense wisdom
16:21:14 <elliott> http://www.yvettesbridalformal.com/Lyra_V8_Sean_Terrence_Best.html
16:21:41 <elliott> http://www.yvettesbridalformal.com/sitebuilder/images/test196_028-450x600.jpg i think this is sean
16:22:01 <elliott> http://www.yvettesbridalformal.com/Alphabet_Angels_Alpha.html yeah another pic of him here
16:25:58 <elliott> http://yvettesbridalformal.com/aboutYvettesPortraitPainter1.html
16:27:29 <elliott> "I have been to yvette's, it is a lot like this: very colorful friendly place with lots of things moving. you can get a tuxedo and also get your portrait painted. they are very positive and believe in the power of dreams."
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16:29:06 <Vorpal> wtf is this encoding: ./share/libc/__fc_string_axiomatic.h: Non-ISO extended-ASCII C program text
16:29:23 <Vorpal> or anything I tried in my editor
16:29:41 <Vorpal> less manages to display the chars in it
16:29:48 <Vorpal> but both emacs and kate are totally lost
16:30:16 <Vorpal> I have UTF-8 locale set so not sure what less is trying
16:30:33 <elliott> does it have any weidr characters in it with less?
16:30:52 <elliott> Gregor: wait, why does plash development seem dormant?
16:30:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes: 𝔹 ℤ but they are intended
16:30:59 <elliott> news posts from 2007 and 2008, edgy eft as last mentioned ubuntu version
16:31:10 <elliott> Vorpal: copy it all from less and pastie it
16:31:14 <Vorpal> /* CEA (Commissariat <E0> l'<E9>nergie atomique et aux <E9>nergies */
16:31:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it might be mixed encodings
16:31:27 <elliott> Vorpal: copy it all from less and pastie it
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16:32:22 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway yeah it was mixed encoding, the copyright header was in some ISO-ish thingy while the rest was UTF-8
16:32:43 <elliott> Vorpal: please tell me the blackboard bold isn't just in comments or strings
16:33:27 <Vorpal> elliott, it is in C comments, but they are used for the proof.
16:33:39 <Vorpal> elliott, as in, they are used in the syntax of proof specification
16:34:00 <Vorpal> elliott, the file declares the concept of a 0-terminated string, looks quite scary
16:34:41 <elliott> Vorpal: i wanna seeeee and am lazy pastie
16:35:18 <elliott> cpressey: oh INTERESTING, apparently those recipe pages
16:35:23 <elliott> used to be conspiracy ones
16:35:44 <elliott> and google cache has updated
16:35:45 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/LFBe
16:35:52 <elliott> Vorpal: my browser handles it!
16:35:57 <elliott> Vorpal: wow at prefixing every line with @
16:36:07 <elliott> Vorpal: ...wow at that syntax :D
16:36:09 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah mine screws up the comment at the top
16:36:15 <elliott> "(char *s1, char *s2, ℤ n)"
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16:36:38 <Vorpal> elliott, is that good or bad? ;P
16:36:50 <elliott> i'm not sure what was wrong with "nat"
16:37:17 <elliott> Vorpal: have you ever used plash :|
16:37:18 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. Except it might conflict with a C variable, typedef or function called that
16:37:26 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. Except it might conflict with a C variable, typedef or function called that
16:37:28 <elliott> only as much as "char" might
16:37:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well, they *are* the C types there
16:37:55 <Vorpal> elliott, yes ℤ is the logic type
16:38:10 <elliott> that distinction makes little sense
16:38:13 <Vorpal> elliott, it is proving stuff about variables of that C type
16:38:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well ℤ would be bignum I think
16:38:31 <Vorpal> unlike, say, an int or such
16:38:40 <Vorpal> for which it would model the overflow behaviour
16:39:16 <elliott> ...but the last argument to memcp could overflow
16:39:24 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I saw somewhere in the docs that C typedefs took priority in case of a name conflict, but you could always reach the logic types using the unicode equivalents.
16:40:09 <elliott> Vorpal: did they never think of just using an invalid char like $?
16:40:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know :P
16:41:20 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I don't understand all in there, but memcmp isn't used to describe a C function called that. It is used to represent the concept of comparing memory in order to be able to describe the concept of a null terminated string in the end.... I think.
16:41:47 <elliott> i will have to take your word for it
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16:43:22 <Gregor> Some program called ReportCrash is taking 100% CPU.
16:43:46 <cpressey> it's reporting a crash in ReportCrash
16:43:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, wait, are you using a mac!?
16:44:04 <Gregor> Vorpal: For my research I have stuff on EVERY MAJOR OS! Yes, that's right. Victory.
16:44:06 <Vorpal> elliott, or hm you could learn how it works :P
16:44:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, Solaris? HP-UX?
16:44:31 <Vorpal> wait, HP-UX isn't major
16:44:36 <Gregor> Vorpal: Solaris isn't major either.
16:44:36 <elliott> <Vorpal> [negates what you said]
16:44:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, what are the major ones then?
16:44:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Windows, Linux, OS X
16:44:56 <Gregor> Windows, Mac OS X, Linux.
16:45:09 <Vorpal> hm, sad it is only those that count as major these days
16:45:19 <Gregor> It's mostly sad that Windows is on the list :P
16:45:25 <elliott> Ever since OS X came out that's been it.
16:45:29 <Gregor> elliott: Solaris was big once. It was contender!
16:45:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well, go back to the 80s and it wasn't like that
16:45:34 <elliott> Before that, what, Mac OS was on the list too. And Windows was a lot bigger.
16:45:48 <elliott> Before that, WINDOWS WINDOWS WINDOWS, Mac OS.
16:45:53 <elliott> Before that, WINDOWS WINDOWS WINDOWS, OS/2.
16:46:18 <elliott> If you can call that an OS.
16:46:24 <Vorpal> elliott, and before that, SunOS and so on
16:46:28 <elliott> Rather than a few API functions, a filesystem and a shell :P
16:46:29 <Vorpal> and several other ones
16:46:29 <cpressey> I've got an iMac on my desk now
16:46:32 <Gregor> elliott: It calls itself an OS!
16:46:48 <Gregor> elliott: That's weird.
16:47:00 <Gregor> elliott: Also, I'm surprised you didn't use the Britlish spelling.
16:47:41 <cpressey> I think it should be parenthesized like (Disk Operating) System. It operates your disk.
16:47:44 <elliott> Gregor: Thanks, I just viewed the Wikipedia article "feces" to see if "faeces" was a hypercorrection (my usual justification for not using the British spelling).
16:47:57 <elliott> Gregor: I really don't care though :P
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16:48:21 <elliott> Gregor: I do hate "foetus", though, as it's just something that was invented because lots of Latin words have "oe" in them, right? Must be "foetus" really.
16:48:28 <Gregor> I raeally doen't caere.
16:48:36 <elliott> Actually it's "fetus" in Latin and the British medical literature even calls it that.
16:48:47 <elliott> Gregor: Nosrsly Plash, is it actually developed?
16:49:02 <Gregor> elliott: I had a chat with the main Plash dev a while ago.\
16:49:13 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, so their website is just ancient.
16:49:15 <nooga> there's no goddamn irc channel for open-mpi
16:49:18 <Gregor> elliott: It's still up to date in the repo, and it works on the latest glibc, there just hasn't been a /release/.
16:49:29 <elliott> Gregor: And their nightly repo appears to only go up to Ubuntu Edgy Eft.
16:49:45 <Gregor> elliott: That's just their auto-builds.
16:49:52 <elliott> Gregor: I really don't want to build it.
16:50:06 <Gregor> Hence why I just use lenny.
16:50:27 <elliott> Gregor: What, so I should make a Debian chroot to install it in?
16:50:48 <Gregor> Not ideally, but yeah >_>
16:50:59 <elliott> Gregor: Did *you* make a Debian chroot to install it in? :P
16:51:10 <elliott> Am I installing debootstrap right now? (Yes)
16:51:25 <Gregor> elliott: Hackiki and HackBot are in chroots.
16:51:28 <elliott> Gregor: Are *you* insane? (Yes.)
16:51:36 <Gregor> debootstrap is SO EASY
16:51:41 <elliott> E: debootstrap can only run as root
16:51:52 <nooga> how am i supposed to ask few simple questions
16:51:57 <Gregor> elliott: It needs to make dev files.
16:52:01 <elliott> Gregor: Your mom needs to--
16:52:10 <Gregor> elliott: Then it needs to chroot for the final step of installation.
16:52:11 <elliott> Gregor: OK, can I chown -R after that though? :P
16:52:21 <cpressey> nooga: open-mpi is way too SERIOUS BUSINESS for IRC :)
16:52:36 <Gregor> elliott: I ... suppose? But you can't chroot into it as non-root anyway ...
16:52:56 <elliott> Gregor: But having other people own stuff in my ~ feels disturbingly kinky. Wait, what? I mean disturbingly weird.
16:53:23 <elliott> Dear debootstrap: "debootstrap lenny --help" does NOT mean "create a directory called --help".
16:53:52 <elliott> Hokay, totally debootstrapping lenny.
16:54:41 <elliott> Gregor: How long is this gonna take? :P
16:54:47 <elliott> Well, I've debootstrapped on an ARM machine. But still.
16:54:51 <Gregor> elliott: Not as long as you think, longer than you'd like.
16:56:21 <Gregor> Thank you for correcting the spelling of "Yaaaaay" ...
16:57:58 <fizzie> elliott: I was expecting an "I: ed is ded" after that.
16:58:08 <elliott> Gregor: It... it's important!
16:58:15 <elliott> I also use * to reword sentences to be nicer after-the-fact.
16:59:15 <elliott> Rhythmbox's successor should be called Melodycube.
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17:01:29 <fizzie> I'll install the Timbreoctahedron.
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17:03:17 <elliott> Gregor: So, uh, don't run Plash as root, yeah? :P
17:04:21 <fizzie> Spectromandelbulb, for the mathematically inclined listener.
17:04:41 <fizzie> Perhaps even the mathematically reclined.
17:06:59 <elliott> Gregor: So I want the nightly build things, right?
17:08:55 <Gregor> elliott: I use the release *shrugs*
17:09:45 <elliott> Gregor: LAWL it wants to install X11 libs.
17:09:56 <elliott> WARNING: untrusted versions of the following packages will be installed!
17:09:56 <elliott> Untrusted packages could compromise your system's security.
17:09:56 <elliott> You should only proceed with the installation if you are certain that
17:09:56 <elliott> this is what you want to do.
17:09:58 <elliott> Gregor: Now that *is* ironic.
17:10:08 <Gregor> Yeah, Plash has an utterly-useless "powerbox" feature that uses X ...
17:10:16 <elliott> Gregor: Hey, I'm installing it to test that out.
17:10:32 <elliott> It's a good idea fundamentally, I'm just not sure they can pull it off with the current state of graphical applications.
17:10:34 <Gregor> OK, utterly useless /to me/
17:10:43 <elliott> So I basically want to laugh at it.
17:11:08 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.combex.com/tech/edesk.html This is how it should actually be done :P
17:11:13 <elliott> (And one of the inspirations for the powerbox.)
17:12:19 <elliott> Gregor: It does seem awfully silly just to handle files.
17:12:27 <elliott> Because who will ever have resources on a network?
17:12:38 <Gregor> The problem is there technique /can't/ block network access.
17:12:49 <Gregor> Since you can always use the raw syscalls.
17:13:12 <elliott> Gregor: wait couldn't they disable them?
17:13:15 <elliott> and provide their own bsd sockets
17:13:19 <elliott> of course bsd sockets is so hilariously low-level
17:13:22 <elliott> as to make such a thing pointless
17:13:34 <elliott> SYSTEMS CONTINUE TO SUCK BECAUSE OF HOW SYSTEMS SUCK; NEWS AT 11
17:13:34 <Gregor> Hence why I disable them (with firewall) and provide an HTTP proxy.
17:14:06 <elliott> Gregor: Can you make debootstrap use hardlinks?
17:14:20 <Gregor> That WOULD be really nice ... but I doubt it.
17:14:21 <elliott> A bunch of chroots taking up effectively 0 additional space than if there was no chroot.
17:14:31 <elliott> Gregor: Probably you can make one and then just hardlink-copy it.
17:14:46 <elliott> I mean, I doubt it depends on what directory name you use. So it should work fine.
17:14:58 <elliott> Gregor: Of course, creating new hardlinks on updates and the like would be the issue.
17:15:01 <Gregor> elliott: Except you wouldn't want it to be ALL hardlinks, since you'd want an independent /etc.
17:15:03 <elliott> But *eh* you could probably automate it.
17:15:11 <elliott> Gregor: The default /etc files can be hardlinked.
17:15:16 <elliott> If you modify them, it'll no longer be hardlinked.
17:15:28 <Gregor> Depends on how who modifies them :)
17:15:28 <elliott> modifying a hardlinked file doesn't modify other links right?
17:15:36 <Gregor> Depends on the editor.
17:15:45 <elliott> Gregor: What editors do the stupid thing?
17:15:50 <elliott> (modify the other linked files)
17:16:06 <Gregor> echo 'foo' >> /etc/options
17:16:07 <elliott> Gregor: ooh, that probably breaks file-change notification daemons
17:16:15 <elliott> since the other linked files change
17:16:19 <elliott> but this isn't notified about
17:16:27 <elliott> (presumably, since that requires traversing the entire FS)
17:16:50 <elliott> Gregor: What about x=$(cat /etc/options); echo $x'foo' >/etc/options?
17:16:56 <elliott> Please don't tell me that behaves differently.
17:17:21 <Gregor> I'm actually not sure off the top of my head :P. I think that truncating it might cause recreation.
17:17:41 <elliott> Now I get to make $DISPLAY work from inside a chroot!
17:19:11 <Gregor> Copy .Xauthority from the host, make sure you have TCP enabled, use DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:whatever instead of DISPLAY=:whatever
17:19:16 <elliott> Huh, localhost.nl isn't registered. Isn't that against the lawz of DNSzzz?
17:19:37 <elliott> Gregor: I have no .Xauthority :-D
17:19:46 <elliott> TCP enabled in my X server, you mean?
17:19:53 <elliott> Can I enable that without restarting X?
17:19:56 <elliott> Say yes or I will kill you.
17:20:52 <Gregor> Alternatively, punt and start Xephyr with whatever option tells it to not do any permissions checks :P
17:21:11 <elliott> Gregor: Or... ssh in to the chroot and use X forwarding.
17:21:12 <Gregor> Alternatively alternatively, install a VNC server in the chroot.
17:21:21 <Gregor> Alternatively alternatively alternatively, do that.
17:21:46 <elliott> "How many pigs do I have? Alternatively, alternatively alternatively, alternatively alternatively alternatively..."
17:22:21 <Gregor> How many bigs do I have? One metric lot.
17:22:41 <elliott> -retro start with classic stipple and cursor
17:24:32 <elliott> Gregor: Haha wow, metacity thinks compositing is a good idea in Xephyr.
17:25:11 <elliott> WOW metacity has a lot of dependencies.
17:28:02 <elliott> -I ignore all remaining arguments
17:30:46 <elliott> powerbox.Powerbox(user_namespace = state.caller_root,
17:30:46 <elliott> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'Powerbox'
17:31:42 <elliott> Gregor: Running your WM with pola-run SO DOESN'T WORK
17:32:04 <elliott> sh-3.2$ pola-run -B --prog /usr/bin/icewm-lite --env DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:1 --x11 --pet-name IceWM
17:32:04 <elliott> /usr/bin/icewm-lite: error while loading shared libraries: libgcc_s.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
17:32:12 <Gregor> Well that's a weird one.
17:32:24 <Gregor> ls -l /usr/lib/libgcc_s.so.1
17:32:37 <elliott> -fl /lib doesn't help though
17:32:40 <Gregor> ls -l /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 then :P
17:32:51 <Gregor> If that's a symlink to somewhere weird, that would be the issue.
17:33:00 <Gregor> Don't know why it would be though.
17:33:06 <elliott> l Follow symbolic links (the "l" is for "foLLow"). If sym-
17:33:17 <elliott> sh-3.2$ ls -l /lib/libgcc_s.so.1
17:33:17 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 93016 Jan 2 2009 /lib/libgcc_s.so.1
17:34:21 <Vorpal> elliott, from example output in the manual: "Warning : entering loop for the first time", it states this is completely normal.
17:34:39 <elliott> Gregor: I guess I oughta trust my WM :P
17:35:02 <Gregor> elliott: Well, it also oughtn't to have that problem >_>
17:35:05 <Vorpal> elliott, while the software is indeed screwy, it actually seems to do the job damn well.
17:35:36 <elliott> Gregor: I LOVE THE PART WHERE GTK STUFF DOESN'T LISTEN TO $DISPLAY.
17:36:26 <elliott> Gregor: Plash is such a gigantic hack :P
17:36:44 <Gregor> elliott: But it works.
17:36:55 <Gregor> Well, maybe powerbox doesn't :P
17:37:12 <elliott> leafpad: can't save config file - /home/u/.config/leafpad/leafpadrc
17:37:25 * Gregor is morbidly amused by his icon-character's death.
17:37:47 <elliott> The smallest enemies, right
17:37:52 <elliott> Little tiny critters that are only a mild annoyance
17:37:55 <elliott> Gregor: Make them the favicon.
17:38:06 <elliott> It doesn't want you to steal its images!
17:38:34 <Vorpal> elliott, frama-c normalises the source code as an early step of the analysis, but I wonder why it turns *ptr++ = val; into: (where "unsigned char val, *ptr;") into:
17:38:35 <Vorpal> unsigned char tmp = ptr;
17:38:36 <Vorpal> *tmp = (unsigned char) val;
17:38:41 <Vorpal> that seems a backward way to normalise it
17:39:14 <Vorpal> elliott, a more logical way to do it would be:
17:39:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe it relies on a certain evaluation order for some reason or something.
17:39:49 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:41:41 <Vorpal> elliott, awesome thing I just noticed: frama-c documentation uses spivak in at least one place
17:43:04 <elliott> Gregor: Ahh, that marshalling error is when a program doesn't have access to itself :P
17:43:18 <Gregor> elliott: ... laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl
17:44:20 <Vorpal> elliott, what language is plash coded in?
17:44:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably mostly C and then Python for the tools
17:44:47 <quintopia> actually, favicon enemies would be cool...if they dropped out of the address bar entirely, grew a face and legs, and could charge at you really fast...and could respawn at the address bar!
17:44:53 <Vorpal> elliott, considering it's security-criticallity it is imperative that it should be formally proved! Go do it!
17:45:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, that sounds like "no the browser won't let you do that"
17:46:02 <quintopia> Vorpal: that's what i was thinking
17:47:10 <Gregor> They could just drop from above the visible page.
17:47:21 <Gregor> They can't actually drop from the browser chrome, but they can drop from "nowhere"
17:47:50 <elliott> Gregor: Especially since you're totally making it an application and therefore it won't have any chrome >_>
17:48:07 <Vorpal> wait, youtube changed logo?
17:48:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah it's a total rebrand.
17:48:32 <Gregor> elliott: At this point my plan is to make that a branch. There's really only a few things the browser can help me with, so having those as optional is still a nice option.
17:48:58 <Vorpal> elliott, people knew the old logo
17:48:59 <elliott> Vorpal has never seen occasion-specific logos before.
17:49:08 <Vorpal> elliott, oh is that what it is
17:49:22 <elliott> Gregor: But bookmarklets are fugly :P
17:49:35 <elliott> Vorpal: try clicking the thing to the right of Tube.
17:49:43 <Gregor> elliott: Apps for web-based things are also fugly. Having both options is less fugly than either option.
17:49:53 <elliott> Gregor: It's hardly "web-based" :P
17:49:59 <elliott> It's a game that uses web pages.
17:50:10 <elliott> It's not a web agme in the sense of, say, a Flash game.
17:50:21 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but it doesn't work without flash whatever it is
17:50:35 <elliott> Gregor: I WANT TO CRYYYY BECAUSE OF VORPAL
17:50:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, I normally use youtube-dl...
17:50:40 <Gregor> elliott: Me toooooooooooooo
17:50:48 <Gregor> Oh, he's still on YouTube :P
17:51:02 <elliott> And I know Vorpal's... in Sweden.
17:51:09 <Gregor> elliott: I have a mullet.
17:51:10 <elliott> Meet you in Stockholm in a few hours.
17:51:15 <Gregor> elliott: I'm offering you a piece of bread.
17:51:23 <Gregor> elliott: How can you possibly refuse a man with a mullet. Piece o' bread.
17:52:16 <elliott> Gregor: Are you suuuuuure that powerbox is in the default thing.
17:52:19 <elliott> You know, the thing with a thing.
17:52:49 * Gregor tries desperately to interpret that as words.
17:52:54 <Gregor> You do have to enable it with an option.
17:52:57 <elliott> Gregor: The. Plash package.
17:53:05 <elliott> yes it says the powerbox module has no powerbox in it.
17:53:12 <elliott> which is sort of non-reassuring from a reassuring-things standpoint of view
17:53:19 <Gregor> No, I'm not sure it's in the package.
17:53:25 <Gregor> Maybe it's plash-powerbox or something.
17:53:31 <elliott> yeah there's nothing else although
17:53:34 <elliott> the repo *does* have two packages
17:53:37 <elliott> but i dunno what the other is because i'm lazy
17:53:43 <elliott> sh-3.2$ aptitude search powerbox
17:53:57 <Gregor> What's the other package?
17:55:53 <elliott> quintopia: a box with power inside
17:56:00 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
17:56:17 <elliott> Gregor: The other package is just glib-source.
17:56:30 <elliott> quintopia: It's what happens when you stop believing.
17:56:34 <Gregor> elliott: Lamesauce ... maybe you need to -f in the path for powerbox ;)
17:56:36 <Vorpal> elliott, hm C totally needs mode unicode syntax
17:57:11 <Gregor> quintopia: http://plash.beasts.org/ <-- step one, know what Plash is. I don't want to explain Plash :P
17:57:28 <elliott> Powerbox is... all you've ever wanted.
17:57:29 <Vorpal> quintopia, it's a plash thing
17:57:43 <Gregor> Powerbox makes it so when you try to access something that you don't have permission for, rather than just failing it pops up a box.
17:57:46 <elliott> It's a thingy plash thing thing.
17:57:47 <Gregor> Asking whether the access is OK.
17:57:53 <elliott> Gregor: Technically not really.
17:57:57 <elliott> It's more a replacement file chooser.
17:58:11 <quintopia> for...when you have actual users running under plash?
17:58:12 <elliott> Dear god, someone's ported PowerShell to other operating systems.
17:58:25 <Vorpal> elliott, but isn't it closed source?
17:58:37 <Vorpal> elliott, so... just wine or what?
17:58:41 <elliott> http://pash.sourceforge.net/
17:59:10 <Vorpal> oh, reimplementation. Still very bad
17:59:41 <elliott> THIS IS INEXPLICABLEDDDDDDDDDH
18:00:41 <Vorpal> elliott, also they seem to like the word "rich"
18:00:51 <Vorpal> I'm not even sure what the heck it is supposed to mean there
18:01:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: You're just not understanding-rich enough to understand it.
18:03:01 <elliott> WHY THIS NO THE WORK IN THE BIT WHAT THE IM FFFF
18:03:42 <elliott> "Grant access to a file or directory (source-pathname), but attach it to a different pathname in the file namespace(dest-pathname). "
18:03:56 <elliott> Expose ~/.foo as ~/config/foo :P
18:06:32 <Gregor> elliott: I use that for /tmp
18:07:00 <elliott> /tmp inside maps to /tmp/FOO/ outside?
18:07:08 <elliott> or /foo inside maps to /tmp outside
18:07:17 <Gregor> elliott: /tmp maps to /tmp/foo.$$, yeah.
18:07:32 <Gregor> OMG WEBSPLAT WORKS ON MY PHONE
18:08:15 <Gregor> Unfortunately bookmarklets don't, so it only works directly on the page.
18:08:38 <elliott> quintopia: Without a keyboard? Good luck :P
18:09:09 <quintopia> well i can at least see if it loads
18:09:23 -!- wareya has joined.
18:10:20 <elliott> Gregor: Lame, -fl,w=foo doesn't work if foo doesn't exist
18:10:24 <Gregor> Luckily my phone has a computer :P
18:10:30 <elliott> -fl,w="$HOME/.config/leafpad"
18:10:31 <Gregor> Luckily my phone has a keyboard :P
18:10:37 <quintopia> alright, it may take forever to load......
18:10:39 <elliott> My phone has a computer too!
18:10:55 <quintopia> let's say it works if you can wait for an infinite amount of time
18:11:38 <elliott> Gregor: Things that suck about Plash for desktop use: You have to trust your menu with complete privileges :P
18:11:51 <elliott> "EXPLOIT IN GNOME-PLASH-MENU FOUND"
18:11:54 <elliott> "AAAAAAAAH OH GOD HOLY SHIT"
18:12:14 <elliott> [ten bajillion hax0rs exploit it overnight]
18:12:30 <elliott> It could just tell its parent, "yo, start this program".
18:12:38 <elliott> And its parent would only allow it to give a name.
18:12:51 <elliott> It would then look up, e.g. /etc/plash/apps/[name] and use those options.
18:12:59 <Vorpal> elliott, gnome-plash-menu? what, really?
18:13:10 <elliott> Vorpal continues to demonstrate his lack of one-line scrollback
18:13:25 <elliott> <elliott> Gregor: Things that suck about Plash for desktop use: You have to trust your menu with complete privileges :P
18:13:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it is meant to run untrusted code
18:13:50 <quintopia> Vorpal is expressing incredulity that such a thing would be created
18:14:03 <Vorpal> quintopia, yes I was doing that
18:14:11 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:14:20 <elliott> no, it sounded like you were wondering if gnome-plash-menu actually existed.
18:14:20 <quintopia> it's rather more obvious that such a thing would be created
18:14:21 <Vorpal> elliott, it needs to get privs to chroot, then drop them
18:14:39 <elliott> Gregor: Please transport me to a world where people can actually understand what I say X_X
18:15:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't see why it need to be very risky to have a small wrapper that takes a path and executes it securely inside a plash chroot
18:15:28 <quintopia> elliott: why wouldn't you want to go to a world where you can understand what other people say? that seems infinitely more useful
18:15:40 <elliott> quintopia: because even when i understand what Vorpal says, it's still stupid
18:16:10 <quintopia> elliott: yes, but if i were in such a world, i could understand what you say when you're being particularly unclear
18:16:27 <elliott> yes, but it's not where you'd go
18:16:52 <quintopia> yes, so you could receive that same advantage when i'm being unclear
18:17:09 <elliott> no, because the world where i can understand others perfectly
18:17:11 <quintopia> we could both go there, and we'd both understand each other perfectly
18:17:15 <elliott> isn't also the world where others can understand me
18:17:17 <Vorpal> quintopia, elliott: why not go to a world with perfect understanding in both directions?
18:17:19 <elliott> quintopia: who said you can go anywhere?
18:17:28 <elliott> you get to stay in this shithole :D
18:17:51 <quintopia> a world where "x can understand everything anyone says when x goes there"
18:18:12 <Vorpal> quintopia, no I meant for communication back to here
18:18:22 <quintopia> who wants to communicate back to here?
18:18:30 <quintopia> this other world would be so much better...
18:18:40 <elliott> Vorpal can never go to the other world, because it is literally impossible to understand anything he says
18:18:49 <elliott> wonder how much tickets cost
18:19:15 <quintopia> elliott: approximately two lisp machines
18:19:48 <elliott> hell, people will perfectly understand why i need lisp machines to continue my wonderful work there
18:20:11 <quintopia> indeed, but you have to pay two lisp machines to get tix there in the first place
18:20:36 <elliott> the money for two lisp machines
18:20:45 <elliott> 1) paradise + two lisp machines
18:23:28 <quintopia> i just forgot i was supposed to be giving a presentation today in 15 minutes. i didn't make a presentation
18:23:42 <quintopia> it's been rescheduled for tuesday, but i still feel like a failure
18:24:00 <elliott> dialog = gtk.FileChooserDialog()
18:24:28 <elliott> Gregor: Powerbox is BROKEN BROKEN BROKEN
18:26:40 <Vorpal> elliott, know anything about formal verification for haskell code? Such as what tools are available and how good they are?
18:26:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Here's how you do that:
18:27:03 <elliott> Vorpal: - Write your library in Coq, prove it there.
18:27:08 <elliott> Vorpal: - Extract it to Haskell.
18:27:20 <elliott> Vorpal: - If you want, write a Haskell module wrapping your functions to give some nicer interface stuff.
18:27:32 <elliott> (That you have trivially wrapped the functions correctly is up to you to verify.)
18:27:59 <Vorpal> elliott, is the resulting code as slow as coq or?
18:28:13 <elliott> Gregor: I have a WM running under plash \o/
18:28:19 <elliott> Vorpal: It extracts it to normal Haskell code.
18:28:26 <elliott> A bit more explicit recursion than you'd expect, but...
18:28:30 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, now nobody can exploit IceWM!
18:28:36 <quintopia> elliott: why would you want to do that?
18:29:08 <quintopia> well, most folks get along without it...
18:29:10 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, sounds awesome. Is that how everyone does it, or are there alternative ways, more like annotating haskell code and then proving it?
18:29:33 <elliott> Vorpal: There are no such ways as far as I know.
18:29:48 <elliott> quintopia: Dude, this is #esoteric. We do shit for the hell of it.
18:29:49 <Vorpal> elliott, because, doesn't coq require that your program terminates, which would make proving and extracting a main loop a bit tricky
18:30:14 <elliott> Vorpal: It... there... You're asking way too general questions, bother someone else :p
18:30:22 <elliott> I'm no expert, but, yeah, .
18:30:26 <Gregor> http://codu.org/projects/websplat/ has a TODO list by the way.
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18:30:59 <Vorpal> elliott, right, I guess you could do a trivial mainloop wrapper around a function that just did the main loop once
18:31:08 <Vorpal> not sure how to model state then but meh
18:31:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Coq is more advanced than you think it is.
18:31:25 <Vorpal> (state, as in finite state machine passed as a parameter or such)
18:31:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I know it is a hell of a lot of advanced :P
18:32:57 <quintopia> Gregor: what about long term todos?
18:33:20 <Gregor> quintopia: I only have short-term todos right now :P
18:33:55 <elliott> Gregor: By the way, you accelerate indefinitely while falling right?
18:34:04 <quintopia> you said once you planned to make it multiplayer? did you mean internetworked multiplayer or just "you use the arrows, i'll use wasd"?
18:34:16 <elliott> Gregor: "slightly-enhacned"
18:34:22 <elliott> Multiplayer will be easy when he makes it an application :P
18:34:36 <Gregor> quintopia: Internet multiplayer, and that would require a more-than-slightly-enhanced browser, right now I'm considering it hyper-long-term TODO.
18:34:45 <quintopia> elliot: the falling sprites include wind effects, so it would be inconsistent not to have a terminal velocity
18:34:46 <Gregor> elliott: Actually the biggest problem with that isn't solved even by having an application.
18:34:54 <Gregor> elliott: Eepending on the environment, you won't render the page the same.
18:35:07 <elliott> Gregor: That's true, but...
18:35:27 <elliott> Gregor: Have multiplayer mode use a codu proxy for every page.
18:35:30 <elliott> Maybe disable cookies too.
18:35:35 <elliott> Gregor: And, of course, don't allow any sort of WebKit tweaking.
18:35:51 <Gregor> And don't allow browser windows of different sizes or different fonts.
18:35:53 <elliott> Gregor: Randomness doesn't affect it because you get the same page from the codu proxy. OK so javascript randomness would break it.
18:36:19 <elliott> Gregor: If the page uses any fonts, check both of you have them.
18:36:26 <quintopia> i think all that is solved by having it be an application: if the application is the only one doing the rendering then it will always be the same, yes?
18:36:29 <elliott> And make you two agree on a window size -- or just force 800x600.
18:36:33 <elliott> quintopia: See everything above .........
18:36:53 <quintopia> elliott: you're assuming the application uses an external renderer
18:37:09 <Gregor> Yeah, I'm not writing a new rendering engine :P
18:37:19 <quintopia> well, that would solve the problem wouldn't it?
18:37:27 <Gregor> elliott: "Both of you" -- so this is no longer MMO, just MP
18:37:35 <elliott> Gregor: For MMO, just fix it at 800x600.
18:37:50 <Gregor> And assume the fonts are close enough? :P
18:37:54 <elliott> quintopia: Other things that would "solve the problem": Make everyone go to a farm of identical computers where Gregor lives to play
18:38:16 <elliott> Gregor: How about: Have a list of what fonts are sans, serif, monospaced; replace them with a single generic font for each of those types.
18:38:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor: And, of course, don't allow any sort of WebKit tweaking. <-- ?
18:38:43 <Vorpal> elliott, what tweaking are you referring to?
18:38:51 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe the font used on the page at any given time is the font being used by the person who has the least fontso n it.
18:39:02 <elliott> and someone hasn't got A or B but has C
18:39:06 <elliott> even if that person leaves
18:39:09 <elliott> (to avoid disrupting things)
18:39:21 <elliott> Gregor: and if someone comes in with just D, it tells them to eff off
18:39:24 <elliott> Gregor: ...actually fuck that
18:39:28 <elliott> if someone came in with Super Obscure Font A
18:39:32 <elliott> then nobody else would get in
18:39:34 <elliott> Gregor: <elliott> Gregor: How about: Have a list of what fonts are sans, serif, monospaced; replace them with a single generic font for each of those types.
18:39:40 <elliott> <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor: And, of course, don't allow any sort of WebKit tweaking. <-- ?
18:39:41 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, what tweaking are you referring to?
18:40:05 <quintopia> HERE YOU GO EVERYONE. HERE'S YOUR SEED.
18:40:12 <elliott> Gregor: Okay so it's not easy, but all this normalising stuff adds up to maybe 500-2,000 lines of code.
18:40:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, anything happening with zee or is it still ENOSTORY?
18:40:15 <elliott> Gregor: Plus a tiny codu.org HTTP proxy.
18:40:18 <Gregor> I honestly don't think randomness is soing to be an issue.
18:40:28 <elliott> Gregor: Well, yes, but in pathological cases... easy enough just to srand.
18:40:42 <elliott> Gregor: And, I mean, it would be FRIGGIN' SWEET.
18:40:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, but you had an awesome one about a hacker that you told me some months ago?
18:41:11 <Gregor> Vorpal: That's the baseline story, but that just gets you INTO the game, it's not the game :P
18:41:40 <elliott> Gregor: OMG I KNOW WHAT THE HATS CAN BE USED FOR
18:41:46 <elliott> Sure, it limits you to 30 people per page but.
18:41:49 <Vorpal> elliott, there is no way zee can be done without a story
18:42:04 <Gregor> TOO MANY TOPICS AT ONCE *brain asplote*
18:42:12 <elliott> Gregor: Actually that's lame,
18:42:17 <elliott> Gregor: Hats should totally be powerups.
18:42:21 <elliott> Vorpal: ...what do you mean, "how"?
18:42:34 <quintopia> elliott: multiplay will require truly different sprites for every player...
18:42:42 <Vorpal> elliott, how would zee make sense without a story
18:42:48 <Vorpal> elliott, it is inherently story-oriented
18:42:57 <elliott> quintopia: Just change the shirt/pants colour and have a name tag above everyone.
18:43:06 <quintopia> elliott: color replacement is possible but still takes time
18:43:10 <elliott> Vorpal: "Why can't you do ZEE without a story?" "Because you can't do ZEE without a story!"
18:43:40 <Gregor> The whole idea is to find clues within pictures.
18:43:53 <elliott> Gregor: So make the clues abstract and meaningless :P
18:43:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it wouldn't just make any sense, I mean, the gameplay become pointless without a goal induced by a story
18:43:59 <Gregor> For the clues to be interesting, they have to fit into a context.
18:44:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Pinball is also pointless.
18:44:28 <Gregor> I suppose without context, ZEE becomes ultra-where's-Waldo.
18:44:34 <Gregor> Which is a playable game, but not really what I'm going for.
18:44:41 <Vorpal> elliott, so would you like a text adventure or table top RPG without any sort of story?
18:44:58 <Gregor> There are things here.
18:46:18 <quintopia> "You are in a place describable by many adjectives, and containing many points of interest. You can make choices. Choose or don't choose?"
18:46:46 <quintopia> "You choose to go in a direction that leads to another place."
18:47:29 <Vorpal> quintopia, too much of a story
18:47:38 <elliott> You can go direction-1, direction-2, direction-3 and direction-4.
18:47:50 <quintopia> but that same sequence repeats in every place you go...how is that a story?
18:48:11 <elliott> "You are in node 34 of a graph. There are arcs to nodes 12, 38, 382 and 3."
18:48:15 <Vorpal> quintopia, what happens if you don't chose?
18:48:46 <quintopia> Vorpal: "You are in a place still. It is still like it was a moment ago. Choose or don't choose?"
18:49:05 <Gregor> You are playing a text adventure game. Do you continue or quit?
18:49:15 <elliott> You are playing a text adventure game. Do you continue or quit?
18:49:19 <elliott> You continue playing the game.
18:49:22 <elliott> You continue playing the game.
18:49:28 <elliott> You stop playing the game.
18:49:32 <elliott> You are playing a text adventure game. Do you continue or quit?
18:49:40 <Vorpal> I preferred Gregor's too
18:49:47 <quintopia> since it makes a subtle reference to War Games
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18:49:59 <elliott> i am not certain that reference was intentional...
18:50:11 <Gregor> I didn't intend it that way so much as just an insult to text-adventure games, but OK :P
18:50:19 <Vorpal> elliott, ... do I look stupid?
18:50:31 <elliott> Vorpal: And you've asked that before.
18:51:29 <Gregor> You are playing tic-tac-toe. Do you continue playing, forfeit, or beat your opponent over the head with a rusty pipe?
18:51:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well I know what they are nowdays. If I asked (can't say I remember asking that), I presumably learnt about it then
18:51:36 <Gregor> > beat opponent with pipe
18:51:51 <elliott> I think Vorpal thinks I just mean "wargames".
18:51:58 <elliott> Because he's an idiot, you see.
18:52:53 <quintopia> You are playing tic-tac-toe. Do you continue, forfeit, or beat Col. Mustard in the Conservatory with a lead pipe?
18:53:26 <Vorpal> elliott, well, yes I thought quintopia meant wargames. Since that is what e wrote.
18:53:41 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, that is different from WarGames
18:53:54 * Gregor bashes his head into this conversation.
18:54:09 <elliott> Gregor: I actually thought Vorpal might have demonstrated knowledge beyond what I would have expected of him for a second.
18:54:32 <Vorpal> quintopia, yes indeed, which meant either interpretation was a possible fuzzy match
18:54:37 <cpressey> < elliott> "You are in node 34 of a graph. There are arcs to nodes 12, 38, 382 and 3."
18:54:42 <cpressey> you realize what this is, right
18:54:50 <cpressey> I mean there should only be 3 arcs
18:54:56 <quintopia> a maze of twisty little passages all alike?
18:55:11 <cpressey> OK, so 38 is probably too high too
18:55:18 <elliott> cpressey: I was envisioning it as rooms
18:55:20 <elliott> And the arcs are directions
18:55:34 <cpressey> Vorpal: way to even out the demonstrated knowledge score :)
18:56:37 <Gregor> I'm gonna go with cpressey: Way to win a "fails to understand abstraction humor" point.
18:56:46 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, it is utterly obvious it has to be wumpus. Just add an attribute to each node that can have the value {normal,bats,pit} and the wumups and then you are done
18:57:02 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, who wins that?
18:57:09 <cpressey> Gregor's adventures in javascript have given me a sick idea.
18:57:12 <quintopia> You are standing in a tesseract. Exits N,E,S,W,U,D,M,G.
18:57:17 <Gregor> cpressey: I like sick ideas!
18:57:25 <elliott> Gregor: Let's rape a kitten!
18:58:51 <quintopia> THE SUSPENSE IS U N B E A R A B L E
18:59:42 <cpressey> quintopia: combine jQuery and underload somehow
18:59:44 <elliott> pikhq: I wonder how smallX is so small.
18:59:59 <cpressey> to loop, you create new DOM elements, then interpret those, etc
19:00:01 <Vorpal> cpressey, did you write that wumpus in b93 or was it someone else who did?
19:00:13 <cpressey> Vorpal: someone else. Wim Rijnders, I believe was his name
19:00:16 <elliott> cpressey wrote all befunge software ever
19:01:21 <Vorpal> elliott, why is that supposed to be funny?
19:02:46 <quintopia> because it makes fun of you in a way? that's probably all there is to it
19:04:22 <Vorpal> quintopia, it didn't really. I nowhere indicated that I thought cpressey wrote all. It was just that I got it from his website...
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19:04:51 <quintopia> it implied that it was something that you might think
19:06:15 <Vorpal> quintopia, which was however utterly untrue.
19:07:18 <nooga> do you guys know some examples of problems that can be easily parallelized?
19:07:33 <nooga> raytracing, or seeking prime numbers
19:08:16 <elliott> nooga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embarrassingly_parallel
19:08:43 <Vorpal> nooga, sorting, by merge sort (for example). Cache effects will probably make it a bit worse on most common computers
19:09:16 <Vorpal> (as in, sub-embarrassingly)
19:09:45 <Vorpal> elliott, did you see the /msg?
19:10:22 <nooga> i wouldn;t think about word 'embarrassingly'
19:10:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess not then, I shall however consider the /msg implicitly acked by your actions
19:10:44 <elliott> nooga: it's a bit of a colourful term.
19:11:05 <nooga> i think i will take fractal stuff
19:11:17 <nooga> i need simple problem to focus on open-mpi stuff
19:11:51 <nooga> and also i will get some nice, colorful pictures that can be showed to students
19:11:57 <elliott> "Date adopted: William Blake"
19:18:44 <Ilari> Last really easily parallelizable problem I worked with was raytracing an animation...
19:19:08 <Ilari> One could just render 8 frames in parallel...
19:25:08 <Gregor> Graphics is full of embarrassingly parallel problems.
19:25:18 <Gregor> With raytracing you can also render thousands of RAYS in parallel.
19:25:38 <elliott> THOUSANDS OF RAYS YAAAAAAAAR
19:25:59 <elliott> Gregor: It's a bit intuitive: lots of pixels, usually don't depend on one another, kerching.
19:26:09 <Gregor> Or you can do photon-tracing instead. All the quality of ray-tracing with none of the benefits!
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19:31:34 <Gregor> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Glas-1000-enery.jpg <-- photon mapping uncanny valley ahoy!
19:32:16 <Vorpal> <elliott> "Date adopted: William Blake" <-- where is that interesting failure?
19:33:17 <quintopia> gregor: damn that is so close. if it were people, i'd be distrubed
19:33:20 <Vorpal> <Gregor> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Glas-1000-enery.jpg <-- photon mapping uncanny valley ahoy! <-- looks great
19:33:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, a bit too clean and perfect to be realistic of course
19:33:34 <quintopia> but a wine glass isn't disturbing for some reason
19:33:42 <Gregor> Vorpal: Exactly. Uncanny valley.
19:33:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, you could add some dust or such perhaps?
19:34:04 <Gregor> Vorpal: I couldn't, but someone could :P
19:34:21 <Vorpal> Gregor, well it might be without fingerprints, if gloves were used
19:34:33 <Gregor> Fine, but dust/particulate in the air.
19:34:37 <quintopia> i think it has more to do with the lighting on the floor
19:34:47 <elliott> the glass is a bit too perfect too
19:34:52 <elliott> especially near the extreme points
19:35:05 <Vorpal> elliott, it actually looks quite okay at the top
19:35:48 <Vorpal> just not where the "cup" joins up with the "non-cup" (presumably there are technical terms for these parts?)
19:35:52 <Ilari> The glass almost seems to float a bit in the air (probably really isn't)...
19:36:06 <quintopia> i think it's cool that we know enough optics to know how individual photons behave in situations like that tho.
19:36:10 <Vorpal> Ilari, there is that too
19:36:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, what tool was used to render it?
19:36:38 <Gregor> <person living in any time> It's nice to be alive today, for today we have <technology> and no perspective.
19:36:53 <Vorpal> Gregor, I can't trace it back since you gave me a link to the actual image
19:36:54 <Gregor> Vorpal: Idonno, just found it on the Wikipedia "photon mapping" page :P
19:37:02 <Ilari> There are other things too where the only way to distinguish natural and artifical is that artifical is "too perfect".
19:37:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, It is nice to be alive today, because we are still alive.
19:37:19 <elliott> Gregor: It's nice to be alive today, for today we have specific places to go shit and no perspective.
19:37:33 <elliott> It's nice to be alive today, for today we have Vorpal and no perspective.
19:37:39 <Gregor> It is nice to be alive today, because the alternative is being dead.
19:38:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, (hey, wait, you did realise I was joking right?)
19:38:16 <quintopia> it's nice to be a conscious sentient and sapient entity today, for the alternative might be being a sponge
19:39:16 * quintopia imagines what it might be like to be spongebob squarepants
19:39:20 <elliott> It's nice to be alive today, because otherwise it might be tomorrow.
19:39:31 <Ilari> Also, the lines where the segments of wood floor join look unnatural (no dark line due to gap).
19:39:50 <elliott> Ilari: Might be fake wood flooring.
19:40:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, wait, "<Gregor> Or you can do photon-tracing instead. All the quality of ray-tracing with none of the benefits!" <-- I thought there were stuff you could do with photon mapping that you couldn't do with ray tracing? Or is photon tracing different from photon mapping?
19:40:34 <Ilari> Even well done flooring has narrow dark lines.
19:40:43 <quintopia> Ilari: there are in fact such lines
19:41:09 <quintopia> actually, i think this is a large wooden table
19:41:17 <quintopia> it has the feel of furniture more than flooring
19:41:20 <Gregor> Vorpal: Photon tracing is actually more powerful than photon mapping, and there is stuff you can do with either that you can't do with ray tracing.
19:41:21 <Vorpal> Ilari, another thing wrong with the image: too sharp, perfect focus all the way
19:41:30 <Gregor> Vorpal: But both are so crazy-expensive that they're not worth it.
19:41:38 <elliott> You create a universe in a box
19:41:43 <elliott> And you put your objects in the box
19:41:48 <elliott> And fire them inside the box
19:41:54 <elliott> They have little microchips in
19:42:09 <quintopia> vorpal: that's not due to lack of realism. a camera set on infinite focus would do the same. or any orthographic projecting camera.
19:44:09 <Vorpal> quintopia, a camera set on infinite would be blurred in the foreground, even with smallest shutter it isn't perfect. Also there would be other artifacts from the camera. Such as slight noise in the image.
19:45:24 <Vorpal> quintopia, this image for example looks way more real (because it is): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Kaustik.jpg
19:45:50 <quintopia> vorpal: arguably it looks fake because it doesn't look like what we're used to (the view through a typical camera or our own eyes). but what we're seeing here may be more "real" than what our eyes see in the same situation. thus, it's in the uncanny valley because it is "too real" rather than because it is not real enough.
19:45:53 <Gregor> Vorpal: Totally 'shopped.
19:46:13 <quintopia> sort of the same as people thinking high frame rate movies look cheap, just because that is what camcorders produce.
19:46:27 <elliott> Gregor: I can tell by the pixels.
19:46:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, alternative answer: yes, I guess someone bought that glass in a shop
19:47:29 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Glasses_800_edit.png
19:47:34 <elliott> If this was slightly more noisy, it would be very uncanny valley.
19:47:54 <elliott> Dirty up the table a bit, add some imperfection in the glasses...
19:48:06 <Vorpal> elliott, that is way more realistic than the other glass though
19:48:22 <Vorpal> elliott, also I seem to remember that one was rendered with povray
19:48:23 <elliott> It's not quite uncanny valley right now.
19:48:45 <Vorpal> elliott, no or limited caustics in it
19:49:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, if I look at stuff around me, they aren't perfect, there are small imperfections, stuff worn flat or chipped, grey dust on blank black surfaces. And so on
19:50:12 <Vorpal> quintopia, the rendered images here are missing that
19:50:22 <Vorpal> that is really only an issue if you see stuff close up in the image
19:50:43 <Vorpal> if it is a more zoomed out view then it generally works better in 3D.
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19:56:24 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, wrt the "@ at every line", it isn't required it seems. Just the way everyone does it
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20:01:16 <Vorpal> Ilari, asking me? Then: No, the annotations for a formal verification system for C
20:02:09 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/eg/INDEX.html kind of sort of lists the author of every one of those Befunge-93 example sources
20:02:32 <elliott> cpressey: I like to think that the intention of that page is to list every Befunge-93 prorgam ever.
20:02:47 <elliott> I like to imagine Lahey is a famous mathematician for inventing Lahey space.
20:02:54 <elliott> Which REVOLUTIONARISED wrapping geometry.
20:03:02 <elliott> *REVOLUTIONISED? Maybe not!
20:03:34 <fizzie> Hey, my HSV gar-collaborative-field thing went through: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=519
20:03:50 <fizzie> That was fast; I was under the impression that the strip queue there is something like half a year long.
20:04:31 <elliott> fizzie: Manyhills totally ruined that :P
20:05:00 <elliott> fizzie: Did your Piet one get printed?
20:05:43 <fizzie> elliott: It got added to the queue, but since I sent it (a week or two) later than this one, it hasn't come out yet.
20:06:14 <elliott> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=514 this isn't really funny, it's just two strips!
20:06:26 <elliott> i guess the first one may not be the one referenced in the second one
20:06:30 <elliott> if the second one actually references any real strip
20:07:23 <elliott> fizzie: "Admin note: This submission was so timely and appropriate, I made a special exception and inserted it into the queue in place of another strip. (This is a *very* rare exception - it takes a lot of work to mess with the buffer queue.)"
20:07:28 <elliott> fizzie: I doubt that that happened to you.
20:07:33 <elliott> fizzie: So perhaps the queue isn't so long.
20:07:47 <elliott> After all, that strip mentioned a massive backlog and it's recent.
20:09:04 <elliott> fizzie: Oh jesus: "Garfield Pine Nuts Garfield"
20:11:35 <quintopia> so this is like some spinoff of garfield minus garfield? how long has it been going?
20:15:12 <elliott> quintopia: as long as mezzacotta
20:16:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: "Admin note: This submission was so timely and appropriate, I made a special exception and inserted it into the queue in place of another strip. (This is a *very* rare exception - it takes a lot of work to mess with the buffer queue.)" <-- on which one?
20:17:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=513
20:26:00 <elliott> cpressey: OK, seriously, I'm sick to death of Python. Convince me that Lua is awesome.
20:27:31 <quintopia> it's one of a small handful of major projects published under the X11 license?
20:28:38 <elliott> quintopia: For one, X.org!
20:29:07 <elliott> (Although none of the top of my head.)
20:31:00 <quintopia> elliott: surprisingly few worthy of mention tho. compared to GPL.
20:31:11 <fizzie> http://freshmeat.net/tags/mitx-consortium-license "1073 projects tagged 'MIT/X'" -- but of course "major".
20:32:12 <elliott> quintopia: Well, y'know, I count a lot of MIT software as worthy of mention.
20:32:18 <elliott> And a lot fewer pieces of GPL software than most people.
20:32:37 <elliott> fizzie: Freshmeat is oddly patchworky at times.
20:32:51 <Gregor> I just made the collision detection really spanky :)
20:32:55 <elliott> Also, MIT == ISC/BSD2/BSD3 in all countries that matter at all :P
20:33:00 <elliott> Gregor: Oh yeah... so... spanky...
20:33:26 <Gregor> Believe me, it's spanky :)
20:33:43 <Gregor> Individual lines are separate platforms.
20:33:56 <Gregor> So there's none of this "I'm standing on the magical edge of a box with text below me somewhere"
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20:35:00 <Gregor> It's also slower, but I think it's still fully usable.
20:35:32 <elliott> Gregor: In the platform edition (let's call it that), you could do that initial loop in C++.
20:35:38 <elliott> Wait, would you even need that loop with a getElementsByRect?
20:36:00 <quintopia> Gregor: so falling damage is up next?
20:36:17 <Gregor> quintopia: The TODO list is not (necessarily) in priority order ;)
20:36:20 <elliott> Falling damage might suck.
20:36:24 <elliott> e.g. on looong pages with a lot of text.
20:36:28 <elliott> It's useful to fall down the side.
20:36:31 <elliott> Maybe just cap it at a maximum.
20:37:36 <elliott> I just wish there was an element to complete sequence "Python, Ruby, Perl".
20:37:56 <elliott> Something like Python but with proper lambdas and way less anal like Perl, except without Perl's complete and utter insanity and sigils.
20:37:59 <elliott> You know, a scripting language.
20:38:06 <quintopia> elliott: nope, fall too far = death
20:38:14 <quintopia> this is why there will be a balloon...
20:38:25 <elliott> quintopia: Dude, your designing of Gregor's game for him is kinda creepy :P
20:38:46 <Gregor> I don't want to design it :P
20:39:00 <elliott> Gregor: I think it should have sex robots in it that make you explode.
20:39:03 <elliott> Also they shake the browser window.
20:39:16 <Gregor> Luckily I'm a filter :P
20:40:17 <Gregor> Basically I have a strange, morbid enjoyment of watching avatar-me die.
20:40:29 <elliott> Funny, I have a strange, morbid enjoyment of watching you die.
20:43:54 <Ilari> Dealing with strings in Lua is annoying...
20:44:16 <Ilari> And also integer division is annoying.
20:44:49 <elliott> Ilari: The floats-only thing totally freaks me out, but what's wrong with its string handling?
20:46:09 <Ilari> The integer division wouldn't be so bad if there was operator that did integer division (even if it was really just division followed by floor).
20:46:41 <Ilari> No proper regexps for instance...
20:49:18 <elliott> Ilari: Gotta be a binding for PCRE or something?
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21:19:45 <oerjan> HOW DARE YOU ADDRESS ME LIKE THAT
21:21:40 <oerjan> clearly a typo. pesky keyboard.
21:22:43 <oerjan> i certainly do not have a paranoid split personality bent on world domination AT ALL
21:22:57 <oerjan> what a ridiculous thought
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21:27:27 <webquint> so it seems google has forgotten what shape a G has
21:27:36 <webquint> G looks nothing like dizzy gillespie
21:29:40 * oerjan sees nothing, not even when selecting google in english
21:30:08 <oerjan> not that this is unheard of
21:30:44 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.google.co.uk/logos/2010/gillespie10-instant.gif
21:31:39 * oerjan sees the top of the G behind gillespie
21:34:49 <fizzie> oerjan: I see he has a horn growing out of his head. He should get that looked at.
21:34:52 <webquint> which combined with the rest looks more like an ø
21:35:41 <oerjan> an øoogle once bit my sister
21:39:09 <olsner> that's not even a word!
21:40:32 <webquint> second-price actions are cool, agreed?
21:40:47 <Vorpal> gah at ungoogable software names.
21:42:58 <elliott> [[8====D "Surprise!", also represents a penis.]]
21:43:28 <elliott> cpressey: <elliott> cpressey: OK, seriously, I'm sick to death of Python. Convince me that Lua is awesome.
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21:43:39 <elliott> <elliott> I just wish there was an element to complete sequence "Python, Ruby, Perl".
21:43:39 <elliott> <elliott> Something like Python but with proper lambdas and way less anal like Perl, except without Perl's complete and utter insanity and sigils.
21:44:22 <cpressey> elliott: er... ok... well every time you quote someone using [[these things]], as you often do, you're using Lua quote syntax! OK, terrible argument.
21:44:26 <oerjan> but but but pythons are not venomous
21:44:29 <webquint> elliott: does this mean you'll never finish vagrant?
21:44:40 <elliott> cpressey: wait is that the string syntax?
21:44:48 <elliott> webquint: it's already platonically perfect!
21:44:56 <elliott> cpressey: indeed (multi-line) also comments, heh
21:45:14 <cpressey> elliott: it does have proper lambdas, and proper... something else. [[]] is the "omg all this" string syntax. (better than """ """ imo)
21:45:26 <cpressey> --[[ omg all this comment ]]--
21:45:32 <elliott> function(x) return x+1 end
21:45:48 <elliott> even C++0x's lambdas are shorter
21:45:57 <cpressey> i speak english, i read english, i write english, i have no problem with code in english
21:46:24 <elliott> cpressey: you don't see an argument against verbosity?
21:46:27 <cpressey> i have no problem with verbose
21:46:29 <elliott> it's like reading java in a way
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21:46:34 * webquint likes smalltalk closures/lambdas best
21:46:39 <elliott> when i stare at lua code, all the huge keywords stand out
21:46:45 <elliott> and i can't see the actual functionality as well
21:46:49 <elliott> that's my experience at least...
21:47:03 <elliott> cpressey: but uh the lack of integers bothers me way more :p
21:47:10 <olsner> I think lua is more sensible than python, but not significantly better... and lua's syntax is different from everything and there's almost no stdlib at all in lua
21:47:30 <cpressey> conflating arrays and dicts in tables is not cool, i agree
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21:48:36 <cpressey> you can rebuild lua so you ONLY get integers -- i kind of prefer that :>
21:48:53 <cpressey> dicts as objects i don't mind nearly as much
21:48:57 <elliott> cpressey: oh great, code configuration by process of recompiling the interpreter
21:49:37 <elliott> i swear i want to like lua.
21:50:10 <cpressey> well, i'm not saying i like lua, just that, it doesn't exceed my annoy threshold
21:50:25 <cpressey> for its size, it's hard to beat
21:50:42 <elliott> cpressey: you don't mind verbosity but mention size? :)
21:50:50 <cpressey> javascript doesn't exceed my annoy threshold either, really
21:51:36 <elliott> <cpressey> javascript doesn't exceed my annoy threshold either, really
21:51:39 <elliott> ...have you ever used javascript
21:52:53 <Vorpal> --enable-broken-cxx=no Force configure to accept the compiler,
21:52:53 <Vorpal> even if it thinks that it is broken.
21:53:15 <Gregor> elliott: I've used the living FUCK out of JS, and it doesn't even approach my annoy threshold.
21:53:26 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, and I don't listen to your opinions on languages :P
21:54:32 <webquint> elliott: whose opinion do you listen to on anything?
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22:00:09 <Vorpal> webquint, whoever agrees with his preconceptions...
22:01:18 <webquint> the mystery trains with predetermined destinations...
22:06:55 <cpressey> the most annoying thing about JS is that (effectively) I have to run it in a web browser
22:08:03 <olsner> all the good JS implementations have standalone interpreters afaik
22:08:38 <cpressey> oh, the other thing lua has proper is, if you are going to conflate objects and dictionaries, bloody well just conflate them -- I'm looking at Python's division between object attributes and dict entries here
22:08:54 <elliott> olsner: with ~no libraries
22:09:31 <olsner> elliott: yep, same as lua :)
22:10:55 <elliott> cpressey: I just want (python - anal - weird Gudioness + additional flexibility a la Ruby or Perl (without their insanity) + nicer object system)
22:11:52 <elliott> cpressey: well... you could go about it almost patchwork
22:12:08 <elliott> cpressey: i mean ruby is *surprisingly* close, but (1) THE FUCKING "COMMUNITY" and (2) it has a few really, really weird parts that just destroy it
22:12:44 <cpressey> elliott: i feel that way mostly about it too. actually i know not so much about the community, but, yes, from what i do know, probably.
22:12:45 <elliott> cpressey: so... take Python, get rid of the indentation-based syntax (I don't inherently hate it but it contributes a lot to the anality). lax up function calls a bit, maybe make the parens optional
22:13:05 <elliott> add one or two loop constructs, a bit of flexibility, y'know?
22:13:09 <elliott> make the object system less crazy
22:13:12 <elliott> GIVE IT PROPER FUCKING LAMBDAS
22:13:37 <elliott> accordingly: eliminate statement/expression distinction
22:13:45 <cpressey> give it block frickin structure at any rate
22:13:48 <elliott> maybe replace some control structures with lambdas a la ruby
22:14:06 <elliott> (or whatever lambda syntax you use)
22:14:13 <elliott> cpressey: and, yes, give it sane scoping rules.
22:14:29 <cpressey> why not just take out the garbage parts of ruby? what are they in your opinion?
22:14:30 <elliott> ^^ that is a *really* short change set for an *entire language*
22:14:40 <elliott> cpressey: It's... hard to specify.
22:14:49 <cpressey> the perl legacy, i'd start with
22:15:00 <elliott> cpressey: One of them is: Those little lambdas -- "y.each {|x| ...}", equivalently "y.each do |x| ... end" (this equivalence is *great*) -- they're not actually lambdas.
22:15:04 <cpressey> i like /^foo/ as a literal regexp but it ends there
22:15:05 <elliott> Every function call has zero or one "blocks" attached.
22:15:12 <elliott> You can't pass these as arguments.
22:15:19 <elliott> equivalently, s/proc/lambda/
22:15:25 <elliott> there *is* some shorthand for proper lambdas now
22:15:29 <cpressey> yeah, the pseudo-functional-ness of ruby is awful
22:16:11 <elliott> cpressey: -> x,y,z {x+y+z}
22:16:16 <elliott> also you have to call it as
22:16:26 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
22:16:26 <elliott> since functions/variables aren't the same for various complex reasons
22:16:30 <elliott> ("f" is a zero-argument function call)
22:16:46 <olsner> eugh, lambdas aren't functions?
22:17:50 <elliott> whereas, if sort! was a lambda there
22:17:53 <elliott> array.sort! would be a reference to it
22:18:18 <elliott> olsner: so basically they're separate concepts.
22:18:29 <elliott> olsner: would you have just referring to a lambda by name call it?!
22:18:43 <elliott> WHOOPS F GOT EXECUTED THERE
22:19:48 <olsner> coming from haskell, it's so natural that f would be IO () or something, and would have to be interpreted to have its effects performed
22:20:29 <elliott> olsner: yeah, uh, not a functional language
22:21:12 <elliott> olsner: anyway ruby isn't all that bad. and i gather the japanese ruby community, from experience and second-hand, is *really* nice
22:21:16 <elliott> but the western ruby community
22:21:44 <olsner> they are driving you to create something better!
22:21:59 <elliott> just don't. shut up. i dealt with those guys for like a year
22:22:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:22:58 <elliott> olsner: and of course *because* of the horrible western community,
22:23:04 <elliott> ruby is regularly mocked to death on all corners of the internet
22:23:11 <elliott> and also because of it, it attracts more of the same type of people.
22:23:45 <elliott> olsner: and... why the lucky stiff used to moderate it. a lot.
22:23:50 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:24:54 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:25:00 <elliott> cpressey: what was the last thing you saw?
22:25:03 -!- nooga has joined.
22:25:32 <cpressey> something about space cows and space milk and space cheese
22:25:38 <cpressey> although this probably does not help you
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22:25:42 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: -> x,y,z {x+y+z}
22:26:13 <cpressey> that's... i don't think i like it
22:26:45 <cpressey> { x,y: x+y } i like as a lambda
22:26:56 <elliott> cpressey: lemme pastie what you missed
22:27:39 <elliott> pastie is fucking up stuff
22:27:47 <elliott> cpressey: http://sprunge.us/PeWh
22:30:26 <cpressey> ! could totally be a postfix operator that calls the lambda HAHA
22:30:48 <elliott> .() is the postscript operator!
22:30:53 <cpressey> it's part of the name, isn't it?
22:31:01 <cpressey> oh yes there is a punctuation theme here
22:31:06 <elliott> but yeah, ! is just valid at the end of names
22:31:51 <elliott> cpressey: it's... i actually recommend you try it sometime. compared to python, i mean...
22:32:06 <elliott> it is not as bad as it sounds. just NEVER EVER look at ANY community for it if it's not in japanese.
22:32:28 <elliott> in fact {learn japanese; use ruby} is probably way easier and nicer than {use python} if you have the patience :)
22:32:55 <elliott> cpressey: here's the interface of the blind gods: http://edbrowse.sourceforge.net/
22:32:57 <cpressey> i think i got bored with it and stopped
22:33:13 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.eklhad.net/edbrowse/usersguide.html#guide take a look at these shortcuts
22:33:24 <elliott> it is totally the best interface for blind people i'd say
22:33:57 <elliott> "You will never be faster than your sighted colleague when traveling through unfamiliar territory, no matter what system you use."
22:34:12 <elliott> cpressey: it's like this guy used ed as an editor and he was like
22:34:17 <elliott> awesome this is totally how i want to work
22:34:30 <elliott> you know... i wish i could g/re/p my web pages
22:34:40 <elliott> would be nice if i could fill in forms...
22:34:49 <elliott> cpressey: oh file manager too
22:35:09 <elliott> cpressey: of course *ideally* it'd be, like, a bunch of programs
22:35:16 <elliott> and the main ed thing would just be a "shell" using ed commands
22:35:21 <elliott> even i wouldn't want to code *that* on unix
22:35:57 <elliott> "Now sessions 2 3 and 4 are the subpages about plains trains and automobiels respectively. You can fill out forms or follow hyperlinks in any of them, or stay in session 1 and do something else."
22:36:11 <elliott> "If you are trying to listen to a speech synthesizer, the last thing you need is background music. Instead of playing the song, I make it available to you through a hyperlink."
22:36:37 <elliott> cpressey: ha it has macros
22:36:46 <elliott> cpressey: this guy has managed to turn ed into emacs and *actually deemphasise* the editor part
22:37:21 <elliott> cpressey: oh yeah and he wrote his own javascript compiler and engine to use with the web browser.
22:37:31 <elliott> he's changed it to a mozilla one now, but STILL HOW HARDCORE IS THAT
22:38:53 <elliott> i am now in awe at how comprehensive this thing's functionality is
22:39:23 <elliott> cpressey: it has database functionality :D
22:40:07 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:40:54 <elliott> cpressey: gahaha, he wrote his own speech system too
22:40:59 <elliott> "Installation of the Jupiter speech package proceeds in two steps. First the Linux kernel is patched, so that it can accept adaptive modules. These modules intercept keyboard input and console output and modify it in some way, to make the computer more accessible. For instance, an adapter for the blind might divert console output into a speech synthesizer. Jupiter is such an adapter. This package includes the patch that "prepares" the Linux
22:41:00 <elliott> kernel for adaptive modules, and the Jupiter module itself, which you load via insmod or modprobe."
22:43:05 <elliott> cpressey: and he has an adopted kid with severe ADHD! question: where does his time come from?
22:52:04 <cpressey> btw, I totally have an iMac now.
22:56:39 -!- webquint has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:59:38 <Sgeo> The OSX store doesn't allow system apps?
23:00:01 <Sgeo> That's pretty much the sort of app that I'd actually _appreciate_ careful monitoring of
23:00:28 -!- augur has joined.
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23:07:57 <cpressey> this keyboard is made of lead and chiclets
23:10:19 <Gregor> http://notalwaysright.com/try-explaining-that-to-your-insurance-agent/7819 ... yes.
23:19:04 <olsner> eugh, "deja vu all over again"
23:21:22 <cpressey> it has a key labelled "return"
23:21:45 <cpressey> because it totally want to return the texted I just typed in
23:22:25 <cpressey> (I KNOW WHY IT'S CALLED THAT. DO NOT START.)
23:23:52 <elliott> cpressey: i wouldn't start :P
23:26:26 <cpressey> I just like the irony of a company that prides itself on usability * key labelled with an obsolete unrelated function.
23:27:55 -!- sshc has joined.
23:27:55 <elliott> cpressey: is that... meaning globbing?
23:28:02 <elliott> OH LOOK new macbook air, i wonder how much it sucks
23:28:22 <cpressey> elliott: it means "too lazy to type this part; infer". alternately, it's a product of some kind
23:29:35 <elliott> ok this... actually... the new macbook air looks kinda nice.
23:29:59 <elliott> wait, this marks Apple moving into the netbook industry
23:31:07 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:31:09 <oerjan> ...there was a reddit picture about that yesterday
23:31:39 <elliott> or just poor, drooling people.
23:35:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:36:37 <cpressey> in black clothes with slim cigarettes
23:36:53 <cpressey> and largish, purple-tinted glasses
23:37:55 <elliott> theory: cpressey works for Microsoft
23:39:03 * Sgeo is tempted to try Opera
23:39:06 <Sgeo> Don't know why
23:39:37 <cpressey> elliott: so M$FT got me a mac so I could...
23:39:39 <Sgeo> Well, actually, I do know why
23:40:17 <Sgeo> Maybe Opera will deal with Reddit nicely
23:41:47 <elliott> cpressey: i hate... software
23:41:50 <Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?
23:42:08 <elliott> <Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?<Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?<Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?<Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?<Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?<Sgeo> Why would Safari have privacy mode first? Isn't Jobs anti-porn?
23:42:32 <Sgeo> I hate programming. Therefore, I will make my own programming language.
23:42:52 <Sgeo> That wasn't an analogy
23:43:00 <Sgeo> That was a completely disconnected thought
23:43:08 * Sgeo was thinking about PHP
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23:45:30 <elliott> cpressey: whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh?
23:47:17 <Sgeo> Opera actually works with my school's website!
23:47:53 <Sgeo> Maximized Opera fails at that rule about clicky things near the top of the screen should go all the way
23:51:18 <Sgeo> Now, how do I open new tabs
23:52:50 <elliott> cpressey: theory: maybe i should make my OWN SCRIPTING LANGno
23:53:01 <cpressey> oerjan: you have that comic strip up there in norway?
23:53:08 <olsner> Sgeo: ctrl-t as every other browser with tabs?
23:53:23 <Sgeo> I meant a link in a new ab
23:53:30 <cpressey> elliott: it would be the only one that isn't broken (except where it is)
23:53:33 <oerjan> well the library has it
23:54:16 <elliott> <cpressey> oerjan: you have that comic strip up there in norway?
23:54:16 <cpressey> i had not actually seen it until being in contact with americans
23:54:19 <oerjan> also here http://www.start.no/tegneserier/
23:55:03 <cpressey> not exactly a great comic strip, but alright sometimes
23:55:26 <cpressey> um... the one on that page sucks
23:55:42 <elliott> cpressey: have you ever read the Perry Bible Fellowship
23:55:49 <elliott> and are you too curmudgeonly to enjoy it or not
23:56:20 <cpressey> elliott: um... i don't *think* so...
23:56:27 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.pbfcomics.com/
23:56:34 <elliott> pick one. click. laugh. failing that, start from step one.
23:57:01 <cpressey> confused by web page. oh. those are links. ok...
23:57:54 <Sgeo> Opera works nicely with Reddit
23:57:58 <Sgeo> And with my school's website
23:58:38 <elliott> cpressey: the ones near the bottom aren't so good
23:59:40 <elliott> there's quite a few in that... "continuity" if you can call it that
23:59:44 <elliott> pretty sure all of them have died at least once
00:00:28 <elliott> cpressey: this one was removed from the website and replaced by the current one: http://laurenoutloud.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/PBF247-Catch_Phrase.jpg
00:00:36 <elliott> (it was the last comic before a long hiatus and then Transmission got posted)
00:01:16 <cpressey> wait, so the ones at the top are more recent?
00:01:34 <elliott> i never had a problem with the design :D
00:02:18 <elliott> ha i forgot this one http://www.pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF186-Guntron_Alliance_Force.jpg
00:08:55 <pikhq> elliott: Only a bit over an hour until I've got Elephant's Dream in 1080p!
00:09:05 <elliott> pikhq: Then your life will be COMPLETE
00:09:16 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:09:18 <pikhq> elliott: No, then I'll have to encode this monster.
00:09:22 <elliott> pikhq: Then your life will be COMPLETE
00:09:35 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, I'm sure you could do better than just telling x264 not to do anything lossy...
00:09:50 <elliott> pikhq: I suggest you make ll264, a fork of x264 for losslessness! YAAAAAAAAAAAYno
00:10:00 <elliott> (totally an important correction)
00:10:10 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, it's a high-quality implementation of h264's Lossless profile.
00:10:35 <elliott> I'm sure the Lossless profile wasn't one of the most important parts of the H.264 spec :P
00:10:44 <elliott> pikhq: Also, know that animation, even 3D, is easier to encode.
00:10:59 <elliott> pikhq: Lossless HD live-action I... don't see happening right now.
00:11:05 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and you still need a lot of disk for this stuff, of course :P
00:11:10 <pikhq> It's actually very simple to do *very well* with a high-quality format.
00:11:48 <pikhq> You see, the main thing they have to do to make it into a lossless format is turn off the quantisation after the DCT.
00:12:08 <pikhq> Whiich means that most of the magic stuff that it does to get good quality video at a low bitrate is still working.
00:14:33 <pikhq> Not I; I use a local DNS server.
00:14:40 <elliott> <pikhq> Not I; I use a local DNS server.
00:14:44 <elliott> hopefully for reasons other than speed...
00:14:56 <elliott> (it'll end up slower on average, due to the insane infrastructure and caching your ISP will have)
00:15:03 <pikhq> elliott: The ISP DNS server sucks ass.
00:15:19 <elliott> but... you are in america, yes?
00:15:33 <elliott> quintopia: try 4.4.4.1, 4.4.4.2
00:15:37 <elliott> that's verizon's or... someone's but
00:15:40 <elliott> they're meant to be pretty good
00:15:43 <elliott> avoid opendns like the plague
00:15:50 <elliott> it has so much shit turned on by default and turning it off is a pain and just no.
00:16:13 <pikhq> And it honest-to-god redirects you to an ISP site if the domain name doesn't exist.
00:16:29 <pikhq> Which is solidly BULLSHIT.
00:17:14 <pikhq> So, yeah; I've got a caching recursive DNS server on localhost.
00:18:11 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, unbound.
00:18:25 <elliott> pikhq: Use djbdns or djb will eat your soul.
00:19:44 <pikhq> elliott: Joke's on him. I long ago sold it off to a LLC that manages it for me.
00:20:23 * Sgeo rather likes Opera except for one or two annoyances
00:20:25 <elliott> pikhq: Recursive resolver.
00:20:29 <elliott> pikhq: He will find your LLC and hunt it down.
00:20:55 <elliott> Haha oh wow, Grave of the Fireflies was initially shown in a double feature with *My Neighbour Totoro*.
00:21:00 <elliott> Can you imagine a more awful juxtaposition?
00:21:08 <elliott> Tellytubbies with a snuff film?
00:21:45 <pikhq> elliott: Well, the people who wanted Grave of the Fireflies would probably enjoy Tonari no Totoro.
00:22:03 <pikhq> elliott: Given that Studio Ghibli is pretty universally beloved. :)
00:22:10 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but *double feature*.
00:22:12 <Sgeo> Opera handles SL Marketplace's nuttiness nicely
00:22:22 <quintopia> can someone tell me how to make clicking links happen with left mouse button in urxvt? i'm not skilled with the magic of .xdefaults and such
00:22:27 <pikhq> Speaking of, I still need to see Tonari no Totoro.
00:22:30 <elliott> "Oh god, I... *cry*. ...what the fuck what is this animal ... thing"
00:22:44 <elliott> "Hahaha this is nice I like this okay it is over now, catbus! ...;_;"
00:23:22 <elliott> quintopia: FWIW, an Rxvt resource just looks like this:
00:23:50 <elliott> quintopia: grepping http://linux.die.net/man/1/urxvt i can't find anything
00:24:08 <quintopia> elliott: thanks i got help from someone else
00:24:08 <elliott> pikhq: It's good, although that's ... obvious.
00:24:15 <elliott> quintopia: For the record, how is it done?
00:24:21 <pikhq> ... Wait, the two films came out at the same time and it was a really early set of films for them?
00:24:30 <pikhq> Okay, I'm not sure what they were thinking.
00:24:47 <pikhq> It's not like they were the Japanese Disney yet!
00:24:58 <pikhq> elliott: 3rd and 4th films of theirs.
00:25:26 <Sgeo> At this point I'm in love with Opera
00:25:27 <quintopia> elliott: change the matcher.button var in .Xdefaults
00:25:33 <Sgeo> It's search engine handling is NICE
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00:33:47 <oerjan> oh duh there it is http://i.imgur.com/51f9p.jpg
00:34:17 <oerjan> somehow i didn't manage to find it again though it still no. 2 on r/technology
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00:46:12 <elliott> catseye is now speaking frmo netbsd
00:47:04 <catseye> the filesystem is made of rubies and emeralds!
00:47:42 <catseye> no, that could actually be true(ish)
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00:50:46 <elliott> catseye: eh, what's with them.
00:51:04 <catseye> they uh are uh needed for things that go in them.
00:51:25 <catseye> i find myself saying "i hate computers" a lot
00:52:14 <pikhq> They are fundamentally hateable.
00:52:22 <pikhq> Especially the morons who write their software.
00:53:02 <Sgeo> Are the TrueCrypt defaults sensible?
00:53:16 <elliott> pikhq: so uh what is a language
00:54:09 <pikhq> elliott: Whaddya mean, "what is a language"?
00:54:20 <elliott> pikhq: a language of goodness for scripting
00:54:25 <elliott> a la ruby python perl but less shit
00:54:50 <pikhq> Sorry, it's all pretty shitty.
00:54:58 <pikhq> Have you considered shell?
00:55:19 <elliott> pikhq: ALSO NOT AN OPTION not answering will result in being shot
00:55:28 <Sgeo> TrueCrypt doesn't want me continuing unless I make a rescue disk
00:55:31 <pikhq> elliott: KittenScript.
00:55:44 <elliott> pikhq: implication of additional work replied.
00:55:54 <elliott> ...why am i even trying to tell Sgeo anything he won't listen
00:56:03 <elliott> pikhq: i, yes, well, i did consider it
00:56:04 <Sgeo> elliott, better choices?
00:56:19 <Sgeo> All I want to do is encrypt my HD
00:56:20 <elliott> pikhq: (1) one-based indexing, (2) incredibly anaemic stdlib,
00:56:32 <elliott> pikhq: (3) arrays are tables are objects,
00:56:39 <Sgeo> Also, what, precisely, is wrong wth TrueCrypt?
00:56:42 <elliott> pikhq: (4) "function(x) return x+1 end" is a bit verbose.
00:56:46 <elliott> Sgeo: truecrypt is developed in a very shady manner.
00:57:12 <elliott> Sgeo: it is open source, but there is no repository, no real discussion of any development. just a tarball getting put up every now and then,
00:57:16 <elliott> it is not clear at all who develops it,
00:57:25 <elliott> afaik nobody regularly reviews the code
00:57:46 <elliott> The TrueCrypt developers use the aliases "ennead" and "syncon", but later replaced all references to these aliases on their website with "The TrueCrypt Foundation" in 2010[36]
00:57:47 <elliott> The domain name "truecrypt.org" was originally registered to a false address ("NAVAS Station, ANTARCTICA")[37][38], and was later concealed behind a Network Solutions private registration.[39]
00:57:57 <elliott> Sgeo: i wouldn't trust it. at all.
00:58:06 <pikhq> elliott: That's... Pretty shady.
00:58:13 <pikhq> elliott: At that point why not make it a Tor site?
00:58:31 <pikhq> (which would be, amazingly, *more legitimate*)
00:59:07 <elliott> my encryption hits me so hard!
00:59:40 <elliott> Sgeo: try, for instance, dm-crypt.
00:59:53 <elliott> oh, truecrypt also has its own license
00:59:58 <elliott> http://www.truecrypt.org/legal/license
01:00:16 <Sgeo> dm-crypt appears to be a Linux thing
01:00:25 <elliott> Sgeo: you trust Windows with your sensitive information?
01:00:39 <elliott> Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitLocker_Drive_Encryption
01:01:06 <elliott> Sgeo: btw, ubuntu lets you specify to encrypt your home directory with one click in the installer.
01:01:30 <elliott> yes. now go and install it. now. over the windows partition.
01:04:07 <catseye> i've never actually touched the stuff
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01:04:50 <Sgeo> Why are all the Chrome skins for Opera breaking the menu button?
01:05:11 <Sgeo> Except the one that leaves the title bar intact *eyeroll*
01:07:00 <elliott> Sgeo: you're trying to *dress a browser up* to specifically *look like another browser*?
01:07:03 <elliott> i hate you i hate you i hate you
01:07:25 <Sgeo> I prefer Chrome's looks, but Opera works better for me
01:09:27 <Sgeo> Actually, "netbook skin" is very nice
01:09:37 <Sgeo> It solves the main issue I was having with the default skin
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01:27:41 <pikhq> Dammit I'm going to have the Chocobo Theme stuck in my head now.
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02:00:31 <catseye> Well, but, if it works, it works -- whatever netcat comes with Cygwin doesn't.
02:04:39 -!- SgeOpera has joined.
02:04:45 <SgeOpera> It's been a while since I've used Opera's IRC client
02:04:55 <SgeOpera> There's probably a good reason for that :/
02:05:48 -!- SgeOpera has left (?).
02:14:40 <catseye> Cuz I so totally need to run a bot from under Windows, you see.
02:14:47 <catseye> Because that's so totally advisable.
02:15:28 <catseye> eeerrm yeah, GNU Netcat does not build on cygwin, at least not without hacking & I am lazy.
02:16:03 * catseye wonders if there are netcats written in scripting languages
02:16:39 <catseye> http://4thmouse.com/index.php/2008/02/22/netcat-clone-in-three-languages-part-ii-python/
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02:16:56 <catseye> apparently there are one-offs, if not official such things
02:18:00 <Gregor> The worst part about being in ##javascript is that there's no distinguishing between complete imbeciles and good programmers who just have questions.
02:18:01 <catseye> does not support running a program on the socket. ok, whatever
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02:18:48 <Gregor> Usually not on the first question anyway. If you respond, then go "this idiot is a waste of my time", you will have already shown your presence :P
02:19:44 <zzo38> Now I received the Millenium Box Set. Volume B does not seem up to date (it is version 3.14159 but the executable I have on my computer is version 3.1415926). But there is something else that I don't have on my computer: there is a footnote after every two pages listing the identifiers used there and section numbers, and what kind of variable/macro/procedure/number.
02:21:42 <catseye> I infer from the version number that this is something about TeX
02:22:09 <Sgeo> I thought that approximated e. Or was that something else?
02:22:27 <catseye> zzo38: Perhaps 3.14159 was the version it was at, in 2000.
02:22:32 <Sgeo> Actually, I have no clue which one TeX approximates
02:22:43 <catseye> Or 2001, if you are a Timekeeping Purist
02:22:57 <Sgeo> Just that Knuth did versioning of something to some transcendental in the set {e, pi}
02:23:23 <zzo38> Do you know what the differences are? If I know what they are, perhaps I can write on the changes by pencil.
02:23:31 <catseye> Also, Cygwin's Python's time.dll seems to be broken
02:23:41 <zzo38> TeX uses versioning approaching pi and METAFONT uses version numbers approaching e.
02:24:29 <catseye> zzo38: I don't suppose you've written your own netcat and tested it on Cygwin.
02:24:33 <Sgeo> Besides pi and e, what important transcendentals are there?
02:25:54 <zzo38> catseye: You are correct I have not done so
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02:28:52 <catseye> Sigh. Writing... own... netcat...
02:29:27 <catseye> (well, stealing a good chunk of it from that blog post)
02:30:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: Powers of e?
02:30:43 <Sgeo> Particular powers?
02:31:37 <pikhq> sin(a) and cos(a) for algebraic non-zero numbers?
02:34:40 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelfond%E2%80%93Schneider_theorem and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindemann%E2%80%93Weierstrass_theorem
02:41:02 <Sgeo> αβ = exp(β log α)
02:41:31 <pikhq> let exp x = 10 * x in
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02:44:41 <zzo38> The copyright page says "Incorporates the final corrections made in 1995, and a few dozen mode." but what are they? "Version 3.141592 fixed \xleaders, glueset, weird alignments (December 2002)." "Version 3.1415926 was a general cleanup with minor fixes (February 2008).
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02:45:18 <zzo38> What stuff was changed, exactly?
02:46:05 <catseye> You get transcendental digits. You do not get detailed release notes.
02:47:19 <zzo38> I found the errata file.
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02:49:26 <catseye> Good grief. Python's time.dll error shows up in my netcat too. Even though it doesn't call any time functions (maybe it does indirectly through the socket functions, though that'd still be a bit weird.)
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03:49:16 <catseye> Downgraded Python to make it work. Also I now suspect nc -e doesn't work because cygwin doesn't implement buffering properly or something; I had to set my netcat-in-py to completely unbuffered for it to connect
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03:52:33 <catseye> you don't see your own msgs to the channel, do you
03:52:50 <webquint> @tell catseye what is supposed to happen
03:53:16 <catseye> webquint: just testing. it's a stupid note-taking bot.
03:53:17 <storkbot> catseye: webquint told me to tell you: what is supposed to happen
03:53:37 <catseye> wanted to see if it would pass along a message to itself
03:53:58 <catseye> oh, also it is running on Windows Vista, because that is so totally advisable.
03:54:24 <webquint> so it's storkbot because it "carries messages to people"?
03:54:50 <catseye> the reason for the "stork" moniker are... obscure. originally it didn't do this function at all...
03:55:27 <webquint> well, what makes in-channel message delivery better than memoserv/PM?
03:55:55 <catseye> I wasn't aware of memoserv :)
03:56:38 <catseye> hm, i suppose one advantage would be that this works with any nick, not just registered nicks
03:56:52 <catseye> i was just copying lambdabot's functionality
03:59:48 <catseye> (The bot's full name is "mzstorkipiwanbotbotbot", but that's too long for a nick on this system.)
04:02:58 <Gregor> For Facebook, that's probably pretty good :P
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04:04:18 <pikhq> The US porn industry is larger than the US film industry.
04:04:53 <pikhq> $8.65 billion a year vs. $8.59 billion a year in gross profit.
04:05:58 <oerjan> i am surprised that you find that surprising.
04:07:14 <pikhq> Oh, wait, I still have this idea that the US film industry is large.
04:07:25 <pikhq> Because it has large *mindshare*...
04:07:51 <pikhq> When in fact the toothpick industry is larger. Toothpicks!
04:08:58 <catseye> lots of magazines with toothpicks on the cover
04:09:29 <oerjan> well, people who try to look like toothpicks, anyhow
04:09:37 <pikhq> catseye: Those are supposed to be people.
04:09:50 <zzo38> There, I think I got all of the errata of TeX: The Program.
04:09:58 <webquint> i can't decide who executed that joke best
04:09:59 <zzo38> The errata file is http://www.tex.ac.uk/CTAN/systems/knuth/dist/errata/errata.tex
04:10:39 * oerjan stabs webquint with a toothpick ---
04:11:45 <zzo38> There is just one really long piece of errata which I have decided not to copy out, instead printing a copy of that page from my computer and inserting it into the book.
04:11:46 <oerjan> meanwhile other people look like balloons. it might be a good idea to keep them apart.
04:12:32 <webquint> but wheeeeeeere, where do they make ballooooons?
04:12:46 <oerjan> in the helium mines of course
04:13:51 * oerjan suddenly suspects a reference
04:14:03 <webquint> have you seen the ignite presentation about helium?
04:14:09 <webquint> i thought it was damned interesting?
04:14:27 <oerjan> YOU CANNOT IGNITE HELIUM, STUPID
04:14:56 <oerjan> well except fusion, but that's not yet practical.
04:15:11 <webquint> i guess i should take that as a no
04:15:49 <webquint> this is the same guy that tells all the bad physics jokes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2-_5y_Vvw
04:17:32 <catseye> i was srsly not thinking about toothpick people when i said that, only the surrealism of actual toothpicks on the cover of any magazine (aside from Toothpick Fancier Magazine.) so oerjan should get credit for that.
04:17:41 <pikhq> oerjan: No, but you can fise it.
04:18:06 <oerjan> pikhq: that's going to take a _lot_ of energy
04:18:23 <pikhq> No, no, it's going to *make* a lot of energy.
04:18:39 <webquint> catseye: then i'll give it pikhq for being slightly more subtle
04:18:59 <oerjan> sheesh, fission does not release energy for elements < iron, pikhq
04:19:05 <pikhq> And by "energy" I mean "entropy".
04:19:30 <zzo38> I will read the entire book first before writing C-TeX, and then I can continue refering to the book while writing the program (I might insert TeX comments or @q ... @> comments to indicate which part of the book I refer to; this information is mostly only for myself).
04:19:48 <zzo38> If I make a book of this program and of my various other TeX stuff I have done, I should call the book "How To Make This Book".
04:22:33 <zzo38> Is this a good title?
04:23:11 <webquint> oerjan: so you already knew that all knew supplies of helium on earth basically come from uranium decay products getting trapped in natural gas deposits?
04:23:36 <zzo38> I can include QR codes of the compressed files so that you can publish a copy of the book from your own computer too.
04:26:36 <oerjan> although the "helium mines" _was_ a joke
04:31:09 <webquint> zzo38: Does ISO18004 allow QR codes big enough to encode themselves and several others? how many pages of the book do you think a single QR code could encode at a maximum?
04:31:34 <pikhq> webquint: For that comment we'll send you to the helium mines, boy!
04:32:19 <webquint> pikhq: were you just waiting to say that to the next person who talked?
04:33:39 <webquint> although, if the standard allows them to be that big, i think "a QR code matching a program which outputs that QR code" would be an interesting exercise.
04:34:09 <Sgeo> May I quote you?
04:34:28 <Sgeo> I thought this was #android
04:34:42 <Sgeo> Was about to paste it into #esoteric
04:36:01 <zzo38> webquint: The files can be compressed using gzip or whatever, and only the source files are needed (such as the ".w" files, and the ".tex" files which were not generated from the ".w", and a few others), and multiple QR codes can be used if necessary, which sequence numbers too if necessary.
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04:38:35 <webquint> zzo38: it seems like it would take a lot of them to encode the compress sources that generate the QR codes themselves
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04:38:57 <zzo38> (The intention however, is still that once you scan and uncompress and compile, you will have everything you need to make the book, all of the components involved being described in the book.)
04:41:05 <zzo38> Actually, sorry, that isn't true; it won't be necessary to describe the components I did not write (such as the Computer Modern fonts). It would still seem to be a good idea if the Computer Modern fonts can be downloaded from the book, however!
04:41:09 <webquint> well it sounds like an awesome book
04:41:35 <webquint> even if the entire last half of the book is QR codes six per page
04:42:00 <zzo38> (If you want a description of the Computer Modern fonts, purchase the Computers & Typesetting Millenium Boxed Set)
04:45:15 <catseye> oerjan: you are a film buff! i have no reason for saying this
04:45:17 <zzo38> webquint: Of course some things might be changed; it is possible I will change things; perhaps it can include a DVD instead or something. Or perhaps only a minimal number of QR codes can be included for the most important stuff and the DVD containing everything. Or maybe no QR codes at all.
04:46:20 <oerjan> catseye: which might be why it's wrong
04:46:38 <zzo38> It can contain printouts of Enhanced CWEB programs. Have you ever seen (or heard of) Enhanced CWEB programs? (My implementation of BytePusher VM is written in Enhanced CWEB.)
04:46:45 <webquint> zzo38: you should make a spinoff "quine book" with the goal of having the smallest book possible containing all the data needed to generate every page of the book, without using any outside data, or any outside tools besides ZXing, cat, make, and gcc
04:47:04 <pikhq> Should definitely be used for magnet URIs.
04:47:07 <webquint> wherein the user does not have to actually *enter* any text
04:47:20 <zzo38> webquint: Ah, OK. That is another idea!
04:48:26 <catseye> it could include a program which takes a CC# and makes a series of calls to createspace.com services to replicate itself
04:48:47 <zzo38> And in that case, the book would also describe how it works, even.
04:48:58 <zzo38> catseye: No! No network calls. Everything must be done locally
04:49:16 <webquint> zzo38: printing a hardback book is hard to do locally
04:50:10 <zzo38> webquint: In that case, the "quine book" doesn't have to be a hardback book. It can be one that you punch holes in the pages and put it in a binder, or something like that.
04:50:43 <webquint> it would be fun to print out a few, and place them randomly in local bookstores and libraries, and see if they catch on
04:50:56 <zzo38> webquint: O, that is a idea.
04:52:56 <zzo38> Another note: I found out why Enhanced CWEB v0.3 wouldn't work on other computers; I fix it now and included a file "how_to_compile.txt" describing how you can compile Enhanced CWEB on your computer.
04:53:24 <webquint> the first page would describe the purpose of the book "this book assumes you are a competent Unixer and like playing around with funky things. This book contains all the programs and data you need to produce this book, along with the dead-easy instructions to do so. When finished, bind the resulting pages in a book like this one and stick it in a faraway bookstore or library or two or twenty. Let's see how far this thing can go
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04:55:05 <zzo38> webquint: Interesting idea!
04:55:24 <webquint> step 1) scan/take pictures of every page in the book. if you have the time to do this much, take heart! you're halfway there...."
04:56:39 <webquint> also you should license all the source code under a license which explicitly disallows it from being distributed in any form except book-full-of-QRs form
04:56:50 <zzo38> webquint: That isn't as good, eventually it will deteriorate quality
04:58:20 <zzo38> Still, I don't really plan to write this "quine book", but I might if I want to, or you can do so, or whatever.....
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04:58:29 <webquint> and put a license notice in the book which disallows it from being directly scanned/copied for any reason: all new books must be produced via the provided sources.
04:59:13 <zzo38> The C-TeX is just another program, the book containing C-TeX (and other things) would just intend to describe the computer programs used to create the book (in addition to a few other things).
05:00:08 <zzo38> webquint: Yes I know it is a silly idea but it can be imagine, anyways, whether or not it is actually done.
05:02:37 <webquint> why did no one tell me about this 11 language iterating quine?
05:03:16 <Gregor> You will recognize 4 corner Days or incur Easter Island Ending.
05:03:57 <zzo38> webquint: What 11 language iterating quine?
05:04:16 <webquint> i can't find a good link to it
05:05:24 <webquint> The Ruby code generates Python code, which generates Perl code, which generates Lua code, which generates OCaml code, which generates Haskell code, which generates C code, which generates Java code, which generates Brainfuck code, which generates Whitespace code, which generates Unlambda code, which generates the original Ruby code again.
05:05:52 <webquint> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/ku-ma-me/20090916/p1
05:06:19 <Gregor> I FINALLY WIN TIMECUBE
05:06:30 <webquint> and it's ridiculously short too...
05:07:03 <Gregor> There's one image that's REALLY hard to catch because it's right in the middle of a bunch of text, and if you miss it you can't get back up to it.
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05:07:06 <zzo38> Here is the source file I wrote for the BytePusher VM program: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/BytePusher.w Now you can see how a Enhanced CWEB program is written (as you can see, it combines TeX codes with C codes, as well as some other things)
05:08:03 -!- wareya has joined.
05:09:33 <zzo38> Now I can see that 11 language iterating quine. (I see yen signs where there should probably be backslashes)
05:10:17 <webquint> yeah i think he's using 255 to encode several things
05:10:39 <zzo38> Someone else added erlang and sh
05:10:44 <webquint> anyways, does anyone know this guy?
05:10:53 <webquint> he seems to be into a lot of esolang stuff
05:11:50 <webquint> Gregor: did you abstract sprites yet?
05:12:07 <Gregor> webquint: That will take a significant amount of time, and believe it or not I am doing other important things while doing this silliness :P
05:13:42 <webquint> also, because java is LAME, you have to name the java program QuineRelay
05:13:57 <webquint> (just kidding, Java is a p cool dude sometimes)
05:16:19 <zzo38> I will tell you something else: Hatena Diary now contains a short description of some of the commands in FlogScript (in Japanese). Actually there are a few things mentioning FlogScript on there. (Probably because it is one of the programming languages available on Anarchy Golf)
05:20:13 <zzo38> There are also many things about esolang on Hatena Diary.
05:21:42 <Gregor> Should it be possible to have perfect X acceleration while jumping in WebSplat?
05:21:51 <Gregor> It makes no physical sense of course, but most games let you.
05:23:09 <pikhq> It's just expected of 2D platformers.
05:23:32 <pikhq> Damn physical sense, it's very annoying to ruin expectations for no good reason.
05:24:13 <catseye> "perfect x acceleration"? please explain.
05:24:37 <pikhq> catseye: It's possible to change your movement in the x direction in midair in most platformers.
05:24:49 <catseye> ok, that was what i suspected it meant. thanks.
05:24:55 <Gregor> I actually mean the ability to change your X direction just as fast as you can on land.
05:25:14 <pikhq> Gregor: Though it makes no sense to have any control over it at *all* for the most part.
05:25:19 <zzo38> In some games you are not allowed to change direction while jumping.
05:25:37 <pikhq> Well, modulo certain things like changing your center of mass, and/or having *wings*.
05:25:50 * webquint just read the description of the perl pentomino solver quine
05:26:21 <catseye> indeed, irl you are better equipped to spin yourself in midair, which few 2d platformers support :)
05:26:42 <pikhq> catseye: Quite true. :)
05:27:09 <Gregor> Hmm, I actually kinda like it like this ... (with no X control midair)
05:27:19 <zzo38> In one 2D platform game I invented, your piece is the ball, and if you jump, it is too high, when it falls down it will break. So, you have to jump up onto a higher platform
05:27:34 <webquint> Gregor: i can add rocket shoes to the game, so that midair x control is a power-up
05:27:55 <Gregor> webquint: My policy of "you make the images and I'll make the physics" still stands :P
05:28:00 <Gregor> Although I have no useful time guarantees on that ...
05:28:04 <pikhq> Gregor: What makes even *less* sense is double-jumping.
05:28:10 <webquint> and double jumping in midair also requires rocket shoes
05:28:29 <webquint> so you could make it so by default you have to hit the ground before beginning the double jump
05:28:38 <pikhq> Or Mario-style walljumping.
05:28:53 <pikhq> (*2D* Mario-style walljumping)
05:29:20 <webquint> well the 2d mario games didn't feature double-jumping iirc
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05:29:36 <pikhq> There was a bug that lets you wall jump, though.
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05:30:08 <webquint> but in super mario sunshine you can jump-land-doublejump-land-triple-spin-jump
05:30:22 <webquint> which makes some amount of sense if you realize mario has trampoline shoes
05:30:40 <Gregor> I actually think I might like it with half as much acceleration both ground and air ...
05:31:52 <pikhq> 3 frames per second encoding!
05:32:31 <pikhq> Gregor: x264 is slow on 1080p content.
05:32:40 <Gregor> webquint, pikhq: Try websplat nao
05:32:50 <pikhq> Slower *still* when it's reading from 21G of PNGs.
05:32:57 <webquint> okai. have to go back to other computron first
05:38:26 <pikhq> Based on x264's estimates from a minute's worth encoded, this will be about 6 gigs.
05:39:03 <Gregor> Yeah, but you're going from totally independent PNGs to video with interframe/movement info.
05:39:32 <pikhq> 81,200 kbps seems like a doable bitrate.
05:41:02 <pikhq> Pity that's higher than the maximum permitted Bluray bitrate.
05:42:56 <pikhq> Still, essentially quite doable.
05:43:01 * webquint got distracted by the ruby spinning globe iteratng quine
05:44:59 <webquint> hey, i just thought of something
05:45:56 <webquint> one could probably make a QR code that encoded an actual GIF file which was said QR code.
05:46:04 <webquint> that's about as close to QR quine as one can get
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05:46:46 <zzo38> That might be a bit difficult to do, but there might be a way.
05:47:09 <zzo38> It might require coding the compressed data in the GUF file manually?
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05:47:58 <webquint> since, among other things, GIFs use RLE, it should be possible to specify the QR code in less data than the QR can store, thus making it possible
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05:49:19 <pikhq> Seems that this is about double the bitrate of a *Bluray* video.
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05:49:35 <quintopia> of course, there may be unforeseen issues with this idea...
05:50:48 <coppro> pikhq: one the upper-year students is quite involved in encoding. He's nearly finished writing some epicly awesome encoder or something
05:50:48 <quintopia> well, at the very least, it should be possible to produce an *iterating* QRine by brute force
05:51:31 <quintopia> just produce a QR code that outputs the right headers, fill in the rest randomly, and iteratively convert it a QR code, replace the header part with GIF header, and repeat
05:51:34 <pikhq> coppro: ATM I'm just staring in awe at the power of x264. I mean, this is *astounding* compression.
05:51:53 <fizzie> Given how noisy-looking QR codes are, I'm not sure how well they compress; and then there's overhead, both from the image file format and the QR code error-correction (though the latter can be tuned). But you could easily just take any random QR code image and see how small you could make it.
05:52:02 <pikhq> Apparently the raw video of this is 46GB. Going from 46GB to 6GB. That's absolutely *insane*.
05:53:04 <quintopia> this might actually be more likely to produce a period 1 QRine than an iterating one
05:53:21 <Sgeo> What's V8 like?
05:54:08 <quintopia> fizzie: they are noisy because they encode noisy data presumably. more regular data should compress better, which is good, as it is more likely to produce regular ouput too
05:54:28 <Sgeo> The WebM thing
05:54:39 <pikhq> Oh. Slightly worse than H.264.
05:54:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: BTW, you realise that I'm discussing a *lossless encode* here, right?
05:55:14 <Sgeo> ...Lossless encode from 48GB to 6GB?
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05:55:46 <quintopia> Gregor: i like that you can see the sprites better this way, but it doesn't seem as action-intense. Increase acceleration by 50%?
05:56:30 <pikhq> Sgeo: This is *completely and utterly insane*.
05:56:42 <Gregor> quintopia: OK, try it now.
05:56:46 <quintopia> Gregor: or i could make some walking sprites and you could implement a sprint button... >:D
05:56:57 <Gregor> No; sprint button = bad.
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05:57:23 <pikhq> coppro: 1080p24 lossless video is ENTIRELY PRACTICAL with x264.
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05:57:30 <pikhq> My good motherfucking God.
05:58:05 <quintopia> Gregor: yeahhhh, anyway, i think this speed is good
05:58:10 <Gregor> How do normal platformers handle the disconnect between being able to accelerate mid-air and NOT being able to accelerate on ice?
05:58:14 <Sgeo> What's the bitrate/
05:58:17 <fizzie> quintopia: A compressed image format is bound to be pretty noisy. But do try it out.
05:58:29 <Sgeo> (not entirely sure I know what I'm asking)
05:58:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Currently, 73,000 kbps.
05:58:45 <pikhq> Note: estimate from encode in progress.
05:58:48 <Gregor> coppro: But this effectively means that if you're on ice, you'll do best by just jumping :P
05:59:00 <quintopia> fizzie: sure, we have to just hope there is a way to meet in the middle with JUST the right amount of compression and JUST the right amount of noise.
05:59:08 <coppro> Gregor: often your mid-air acceleration is not about as good as ice
05:59:15 <Sgeo> Wait, that's a bad thing for streaming
05:59:29 <pikhq> 73 megabits per second?
05:59:48 <pikhq> It *could* be done over a LAN.
05:59:52 <Gregor> coppro: I can't seem to work out the math on WebSplat such that that makes sense >_>
05:59:54 <Sgeo> Higher means more bandwidth needed for the same amount of time, right?
06:00:01 <fizzie> Also, I think the spec might have something in it to avoid large single-color patches, for easier decoding, but not sure.
06:00:35 <quintopia> Gregor: they don't bother to cohere the two, but rather just ensure that you maintain your horizontal acceleration achieved while in air once on the ground
06:00:58 <quintopia> and also disallow midair deceleration, only perfect reflection of velocity
06:01:32 * Gregor 's brain explodes at that one.
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06:02:16 <quintopia> what? it's a consistent physics if unrealistic...
06:02:42 <zzo38> If your brain explodes and one piece goes in one direction, and other piece has another specific mass at another velocity, what is the velocity of the third piece?
06:03:06 <quintopia> if you have a horizontal velocity when you take off, you have the same horizontal velocity when you land, even if the direction of said velocity has changed
06:03:55 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, of course you do. I was just giving it as an example.
06:04:24 <quintopia> zzo38: for instance, i need to know how to get the pieces back together so that i have the brainpower to compute the answer
06:04:39 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes.....
06:04:56 <quintopia> zzo38: and reconnecting severed neurons in the brain is an unsolved problem
06:05:23 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, OK.
06:05:53 <quintopia> zzo38: what i'm saying here is that i think you stink, but your mom is OK
06:07:28 <quintopia> gregor: actually, i think mario allows proper acceleration mid-air, but the acceleration system is so touchy that it's hard to land moving straight down, so you end up sliding around a bit anyway
06:08:37 <quintopia> zzo38: i'm not actually playing just trying to remember how SMW did it
06:09:13 <Gregor> So essentially, you can accelerate in the opposite direction, but not just decelerate, midair.
06:09:51 <zzo38> quintopia: So that is how.
06:12:31 <quintopia> Gregor: yeah, in SMW, acceleration in air works exactly like on land, except that if you stop accelerating in air, you maintain horizontal velocity, whereas on land, you lose it
06:12:50 <quintopia> pressing left or right in air *accelerates* in that direction, not instantly reflects like i said
06:13:35 <Gregor> So you can NEARLY slow yourself to zero horizontal motion just by being twitchy then?
06:13:38 <Gregor> It's just too twitchy?
06:14:23 <zzo38> Make a game with talking spider, and talking trees, and the Spanish Inquisition, and music to break phonographs by, and a copy of the game on VHS, inside of the game
06:15:49 <Gregor> quintopia: Then try what I just pushed.
06:17:09 <quintopia> zzo38: i already did it. you can find the data at the forty-seven-thousandth binary digit of the arithmoquinification of the proof of fermat's last theorem
06:18:58 <quintopia> you should show the slider image not just when the user is holding down a key, but any time the actual and desired velocities don't match
06:19:39 <quintopia> whatever that means in terms of acceleration
06:21:02 <quintopia> well, try it, we'll see if we like it
06:21:34 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't believe that........ Make a proper game.
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06:24:23 <Sgeo> Does Gregor's thing work in Opera?
06:24:32 <Gregor> Sgeo: Haven't tested it, feel free to try.
06:24:38 <Gregor> quintopia: Sometimes :P
06:24:44 <Gregor> quintopia: Errr, which direction slider? X-P
06:25:13 <quintopia> gregor: the same one that you would use in the same situation when the button is being held!
06:25:33 <Gregor> quintopia: That looks all backwards to me, like he's about to turn the other way rather than stop ...
06:25:50 <Sgeo> Using the down key was not a pleasant experience
06:27:28 <quintopia> Gregor: see if it looks better with gr0
06:30:58 <quintopia> Gregor: the first frame of dying is s'posed to be crouching! people don't crumple that way!
06:31:45 <Gregor> Uhhh, the first frame of dying is crouching ...
06:31:45 <Gregor> Err, second. First is kneeling.
06:32:30 <quintopia> how do you kneel without bending your knees first, hmm?
06:35:04 * Gregor read "crouching" as "crawling" X_X
06:35:21 <Gregor> And yeah, having gr0 as slide works, but I think it could be better.
06:35:32 <Gregor> That's better than either turner though.
06:35:38 <quintopia> well i'll think about making a special sprite for it
06:35:55 <quintopia> it's hard to envision that position tho
06:36:57 <quintopia> it would probably look a lot like gr0, except with the top half of body bent over
06:37:14 <quintopia> lemme go jump off of something and find out
06:37:40 <quintopia> (another possibility is having him tuck and roll like canabalt/every parkour runner
06:37:42 <Gregor> Err, wait, jump off something? For ... sliding?
06:38:40 <quintopia> erm, well, okay, possibly there should be two different sprites for landing-slides and stop-running-slides
06:39:06 * quintopia deviously plots infinite sprite proliferation
06:39:44 <quintopia> well, when i stop running, my body is in a gr0 position
06:40:07 <quintopia> then i stand up straight as i come to a stop
06:40:31 <Gregor> quintopia: OK, observe what I just pushed.
06:41:02 <quintopia> and when i land, i look like gr0 with the top half bent over like i described, so i'll make that one
06:41:37 <Gregor> What's all this "landing" mumbo-jumbo :P
06:42:36 <quintopia> well, actually, it looks okay like it is. possibly would look slightly better with landing sprite, but if you don't feel like jiggering it in, i won't make it.
06:43:44 <quintopia> small issue: when he comes to a stop up against a boundary, he still does the deceleration gr0 for a few hunder ms...
06:45:39 <quintopia> also: does your willingness to work on this now equate to being done with your important business you mentioned earlier?
06:46:03 <quintopia> cuz if so, fuck working on physics tweak and abstract sprites already
06:54:28 <Gregor> Yes, but it also equates to being nearly 2AM.
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06:58:50 <Gregor> Not that West Lafayette is a place.
06:59:26 <quintopia> it is not the "city" to which one should address envelopes send to purdue?
07:00:10 <Gregor> Just that your putting "city" in quotes is very apropos.
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07:14:54 <fizzie> quintopia: http://p.zem.fi/qruine + http://zem.fi/~fis/qruine.png -- I haven't tested decoding it, but as you can see from the first link, encoding that binary data gives an identical PNG file, so it should decode into itself too.
07:16:06 <fizzie> (The qr decoding thing in my phone reads it -- at firefox's maximum zoom level, anyway -- and it does start with "\x89PNG" like it should.)
07:18:48 <fizzie> Though it seems to stop there. I hope "qrencode -8" hasn't stopped encoding at the first null byte, actually.
07:19:23 <fizzie> That seems more likely, in fact. Meh, what a silly program.
07:23:58 <quintopia> fizzie: sweet! i don't have a QR decoder handy though...
07:24:35 <quintopia> unless said null byte issue makes it not an actual quine
07:25:22 <fizzie> It does look that way; any png file generated by that program seems to behave quine-like. I need a better QR encoder here, something that actually does handle binary data instead of just claiming to.
07:38:35 <fizzie> This "zint" library in --binary mode says "error: error: Invalid character in input string (only Latin-1 characters supported)" -- that doesn't sound very binary to me. ZXing's encoder API doesn't provide any way to specify the mode (though maybe it would guess correctly), and it's a huge library for just encoding things.
07:39:38 <fizzie> Maybe I could hack qrencode to work; though it seems to pass data around in a C-style string everywhere, so...
07:40:59 <fizzie> Well, it's only five or so functions, then it goes into QRinput_append(input, QR_MODE_8, strlen(string), (unsigned char *)string) -- after that it's hopefully safe.
07:45:14 <Ilari> Is there Piet program that outputs png of itself into stdout? :-)
07:46:18 <fizzie> Ilari: GIF, but http://mamememo.blogspot.com/2009/10/piet-quine.html
07:46:26 <fizzie> It looks a bit machine-generated.
07:46:37 <fizzie> The data part, anyway.
07:47:51 <fizzie> Hacked something binary to qrencode, and it actually seems to partially work, except that after a few iterations "Failed to encode the input data:: Invalid argument".
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07:57:55 <fizzie> Oh, it's just that the image grows too large. (I wrote a simple little fixed-point finder that keeps encoding a PNG, but the problem is that the encoded output is a bigger QR code than the input, and that again generates a larger PNG file, and yet larger code, and so on, until it goes >2k bytes, which is the maximum you can stick in.)
07:59:05 <quintopia> does png compress better than gif for black/white?
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08:00:31 <fizzie> A bit, for this one file.
08:00:33 <fizzie> -rw-rw-r-- 1 htkallas htkallas 632 2010-10-22 09:59 qruine-out.gif
08:00:33 <fizzie> -rw-rw-r-- 1 htkallas htkallas 617 2010-10-22 09:58 qruine-out.png
08:00:53 <quintopia> apparently png usually produces smaller files
08:01:16 <quintopia> but you should make sure you've turned off all the special stuff it can provide
08:01:56 <fizzie> Well, qrencode generates PNG files directly. But I've ran them through pngcrush with not much changes.
08:02:51 <quintopia> "solid blocks of color compress best"
08:04:37 <fizzie> Whaaat. qrencode-generated PNGs are 8-bit indexed-color images. I'm *sure* I checked one out before, and it wasn't.
08:06:21 <fizzie> I mean, I was computing the QR code overhead: to encode a bitstring 290 bytes (2320 bits) long, it needs a black-and-white image of 61*61 pixels (3721 bits, ~465 bytes); then I went to see that corresponding .PNG file, and that was 617 bytes.
08:08:55 <quintopia> so, how to make its output monochromes?
08:20:38 <fizzie> Actually I guess the "8-bit" just came from "identify"; the bit depth field of IHDR is 1, like it should be. Seems like small black-and-white images aren't really PNG's strong point, though, given that it uses 4936 bits to encode 3721 black-and-white pixels.
08:22:10 <GreaseMonkey> but yeah, png tends to produce better-packed files than gif
08:23:43 <fizzie> Palettized images at least use 8-bit palette indices even if the palette only has 2 colors in it; I can't find the bit in the spec that'd say grayscale images with bit depth 1 (1, 2, 4, 8, 16 are all listed as allowed) would pack each sample to one byte, but it might at that.
08:24:40 <olsner> indexed images also have bit depth, so you can have 8-bit indexed with any palette size
08:24:41 <quintopia> maybe a DEFLATE quine could be converted into this kind of quine with some effort?
08:25:11 <olsner> and also 1-, 2- and 4-bit indexed, according to e.g. wikipedia
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08:28:10 <Punk> anyone alive in here?
08:28:39 <Punk> do you know anything about the 'order of the ookpik'? it's a secret society one of my family members was in and i can't find any information about it ANYWHERE
08:28:50 <fizzie> olsner: You can, but it doesn't help: the palette indices in the actual image are still 8 bits, no matter what.
08:28:54 <fizzie> olsner: "The sample depth is the same as the bit depth except in the case of indexed-colour PNG images (colour type 3), in which the sample depth is always 8 bits (see 4.4: PNG image)."
08:29:53 <quintopia> although the article i read said it used the same LZW that pkzip uses
08:30:05 <fizzie> olsner: Or, actually, I guess the sample depth refers to the palette entries, which would make sense.
08:30:43 <GreaseMonkey> i've managed to make a .gif reader and a .gz (DEFLATE) extractor
08:31:29 <fizzie> Anyway, for this particular 61x61 black-and-white image, the PNG is 617 bytes while the corresponding .bmp is 550; a bit rare to see BMP beat PNG in a size comparison.
08:31:42 <Punk> LOL it's SOOO esoteric in here
08:31:44 <quintopia> GreaseMonkey: create a file that compresses to itself when using the same compression scheme as PNG
08:32:03 <Punk> can anyone refer me to a channel that might be able to help my inquiry?
08:32:09 <Punk> i'm desperate for info here
08:32:11 <GreaseMonkey> quintopia: it's called droste.zip except it also contains a .jpg in it as well
08:32:38 <quintopia> i'd say it'd be hard since it's a *secret* society
08:32:57 <Punk> well, there is a good deal of info on other small societies sprinkled online
08:33:04 <Punk> even really tiny ones
08:33:08 <quintopia> GreaseMonkey: no we need it to just be itself
08:33:17 <Punk> but i'll stop interrupting you guys
08:33:21 <Punk> not trying to be a pain
08:33:35 <Punk> but if anyone can refer me to a channel that discusses these things i'd be really appreciative
08:33:55 <fizzie> We should probably find out, though; there are seekers for such things every now and then.
08:34:50 <quintopia> GreaseMonkey: also, we need to be able to stick *several* introns into it
08:35:12 <fizzie> #esoteric in DALnet has a topic of "Do you belive in faries and nature spirits?", which is... uh, closer?
08:35:29 <Punk> i do a google search for "order of the ookpik" and there is ONE result. one guy in a forum referencing th eorder i talk of
08:35:38 <Punk> TYVM, i appreciate the help
08:36:15 <quintopia> GreaseMonkey: places where we can stick arbitrary data, and it will get output in the right place as well.
08:37:01 <quintopia> actually, it may be enough to have one intron at the beginning of the data and one at the end
08:37:32 <GreaseMonkey> so in other words you want a DEFLATE file which compresses down into itself?
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08:38:40 <quintopia> http://www.steike.com/code/useless/zip-file-quine/ is such a thing then
08:38:42 <fizzie> PNG does do DEFLATE, but it also does all kinds of filters and rearrangements.
08:38:49 <quintopia> but i've seen a version of this that allows introns too
08:38:59 <fizzie> And a bigger problem is the (I think reasonably complicated) QR code encoding+error-correction scheme.
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08:39:20 <quintopia> i think Punk can't figure out how to connect to dalnet...
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08:39:37 <quintopia> Punk: having trouble getting to DALnet?
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08:40:06 <olsner> the QR encoding's overhead should give you some kind of bound on how well the resulting image must compress with deflate
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08:41:26 <quintopia> we may require the largest QRcode possible
08:44:19 <GreaseMonkey> oh yeah also: http://research.swtch.com/2010/03/zip-files-all-way-down.html
08:44:52 <quintopia> yeah i think that's the one that explains where introns go
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09:02:13 <GreaseMonkey> also duncan's post here: http://research.swtch.com/2010/03/zip-files-all-way-down.html#comment-8411293207450220669
09:02:34 <GreaseMonkey> it would be interesting making a .zip which produces a .zip which produces its parent
09:04:56 <GreaseMonkey> hmm, actually, r.zip uses a "stored" block to begin with
09:09:00 <GreaseMonkey> and then stored, then static huffman, then some empty stored blocks
09:10:33 <GreaseMonkey> after that it seems there's another stored block
09:10:55 <GreaseMonkey> wait no it's not dynamic huffman it's just another stored block
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09:11:41 <GreaseMonkey> there's quite a long static huffman one actually
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09:13:02 <GreaseMonkey> wait no it ends in a 6-byte stored block or something
09:14:43 <fizzie> The QR code error correction might help a bit, too: you can freely mangle about 7% of the data-carrying bits of the image (at the lowest allowed error correction level == smallest overhead) without affecting the output bytes, so you could use that to make the bitmap more compressible. I don't have time to fiddle with this right now, though.
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10:46:46 <Vorpal> first snow this year already
11:00:09 <ais523> you didn't have any in January?
11:14:48 <Vorpal> ais523, err, this season then
11:15:52 <ais523> none over here in the UK yet, but I wouldn't expect it as early as October
11:16:22 <Vorpal> ais523, I wouldn't expect it this early here either
11:16:32 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, it seems to be melting now during the day.
11:16:45 <Vorpal> but when I woke up this morning it was quite a bit of it
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11:25:23 <fizzie> It was -4 degrees Celsius here this morning, and I think there was a little bit of something snow-like one day, but nothing that would have actually stayed on the ground.
11:32:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is still on the ground here, but going fast
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13:55:15 <elliott> 17:57:32 <catseye> Ew. There's a GNU Netcat.
13:55:20 <elliott> 18:00:31 <catseye> Well, but, if it works, it works -- whatever netcat comes with Cygwin doesn't.
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14:17:58 <catseye> elliott: say hello to storkbot. e's running on Windows Vista, simply because that is so totally advisable, using a tiny netcat-alike I hacked together in Python, because cygwin's nc doesn't do -e properly.
14:19:09 <elliott> <elliott> 18:00:31 <catseye> Well, but, if it works, it works -- whatever netcat comes with Cygwin doesn't.
14:19:23 <pikhq> elliott: Elephant's Dream, 1080p24, lossless.
14:19:34 <catseye> elliott: it is hobbit netcat -- it looks like something about buffering on cygwin is off
14:19:43 <elliott> pikhq: But the small one was, you know.
14:19:54 <pikhq> (63 megabits per second)
14:19:55 <elliott> catseye: everything about cygwin is off, it's awful
14:20:06 <elliott> catseye: I think *H*'s has native Windows support.
14:20:15 <pikhq> elliott: The 480p one is 1.1G.
14:20:37 <elliott> "_H* 960320 v1.10 RELEASE -- happy spring!"
14:20:43 <elliott> catseye: http://nc110.sourceforge.net/ is the archive of it
14:20:52 <elliott> worth trying that tarball with a native compiler perhaps
14:20:56 <catseye> thanks. well, need to be off to work, will continue l8r
14:21:08 <elliott> @echo "DOS?! Maybe someday, but not now"
14:21:38 <elliott> catseye: http://www.hackosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/nc111nt.zip
14:21:39 <pikhq> Compression ratio of 15% for the 480p one, 24% for the 1080p one.
14:21:41 <elliott> catseye: http://joncraton.org/files/nc111nt.zip
14:21:47 <pikhq> This is, frankly, *absurd* compression.
14:21:48 <elliott> catseye: hobbit netcat 1.10 for winnt
14:22:00 <pikhq> Erm, sorry, unfair comparision.
14:22:04 <elliott> pikhq: so if it was a feature film
14:22:13 <elliott> elephant's dream is 10 min 54 sec i.e. 11 minutes
14:22:21 <pikhq> That was raw vs. compressed against PNG vs. compressed.
14:22:21 <elliott> how long's a feature film these days pikhq? 120 minutes?
14:22:26 <elliott> let's say 120 minutes or so
14:23:07 <elliott> pikhq: so a 1080p feature-length film at 24fps would be about 55 GiB.
14:23:29 <elliott> pikhq: it, well, it wouldn't fit on a dual-layer blu-ray though
14:23:36 <elliott> (only 50 GB... or GiB? Who knows?)
14:23:42 <pikhq> Okay, compression ratio of about 11%, actually.
14:23:49 <elliott> [[The BDXL format supports 100GB and 128GB write-once discs[70][71] and 100GB rewritable discs for commercial applications. It was defined in June 2010.
14:23:49 <elliott> BD-R 3.0 Format Specification (BDXL) defined a multi-layered recordable in BDAV format with the speed of 2X and 4X, capable of 100/128GB and usage of UDF2.5/2.6.[72]
14:23:49 <elliott> BD-RE 4.0 Format Specification (BDXL) defined a multi-layered rewritable in BDAV with the speed of 2X and 4X, capable of 100GB and usage of UDF2.5 as file system.[73]]]
14:24:13 <elliott> pikhq: now what i'm waitin' for
14:24:14 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc
14:24:15 <pikhq> elliott: (5 gigs from 46 gigs)
14:24:51 <elliott> pikhq: are you with me or what
14:25:01 <elliott> pikhq: rather than perfect encoding, higher resolution helps more
14:25:03 <elliott> and also masks encoding errors
14:25:07 <elliott> so we won't see lossless discs
14:25:11 <elliott> just lossy discs with insane resolution
14:25:16 <elliott> also that yields pixel density
14:25:33 <elliott> pikhq: a 4K lossy film will look way better than a 1080p lossless film
14:25:37 <pikhq> Though the compression ratio appears to improve as the resolution goes up.
14:25:38 <elliott> if the lossy compression is good
14:25:51 <elliott> since one little bit of space tends not to be very detailed :P
14:26:03 <pikhq> elliott: Problem: compression tends to suck ass. Morons do Blu-ray and DVD encodes.
14:26:13 <elliott> I mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_High_Definition_Television
14:26:33 <elliott> pikhq: but seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc
14:27:13 <pikhq> elliott: What's impressive is that you could stick this *lossless* 1080p24 on a DVD.
14:27:26 <elliott> pikhq: yes, all ten minutes of it :P
14:27:37 <elliott> pikhq: what about non-disc media?
14:27:40 <pikhq> This is *far* better than I thought it would do.
14:27:48 <elliott> pikhq: how small can external hard drives get :D
14:28:48 <pikhq> Sadly, my computer can't play this back in real-time.
14:29:12 <coppro> yeah, the HVD is impressive in terms of physical compression of data
14:29:34 <elliott> but it has less decompressing to do!
14:29:53 <coppro> admittedly, we don't actually have a 6TB one in manufacturing yet
14:30:03 <coppro> because it turns out making 6TB discs isn't exactly easy
14:30:26 <pikhq> Can do the 480p one just fine, though.
14:31:13 <elliott> pikhq: Care to give me the 480p one?
14:31:21 <elliott> pikhq: I guess it might take too long.
14:31:42 <elliott> I'VE NEVER SEEN ELEPHANTS DREAM LOL
14:31:43 <pikhq> elliott: I've got to leave for class soon; I need to get ready. Sooo... Can you wait a few hours?
14:31:54 <elliott> pikhq: It may be worth doing it overnight. :P
14:32:05 <elliott> pikhq: Or... just give me the command-line flags and a link to their source files.
14:32:33 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: Elephant's Dream, 1080p24, lossless.
14:32:53 <pikhq> http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/y4m/elephants_dream_480p24.y4m.xz , mencoder elephants_dream_480p24.y4m -ovc x264 -x264encopts qp=0:preset=slow -o elephants_dream_480p24.avi
14:33:04 <pikhq> FLACs for the audio available from http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/flac/ED/
14:33:23 <elliott> also, surely the preset shouldn't matter, if it's lossless?
14:33:33 <elliott> pikhq: got bittorrent links?
14:33:56 <pikhq> The preset also governs how well it compresses.
14:34:13 <pikhq> You get higher compression ratio with slower presets when doing lossless encode.
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14:35:02 <elliott> pikhq: How long does this take? :P
14:35:18 <pikhq> Maybe half an hour after you've got the source files.
14:35:26 <pikhq> Erm, no, faster than that...
14:35:34 <pikhq> I recall encoding in real-time, actually.
14:35:48 <elliott> pikhq: Any convenient bittorrent links?
14:36:30 <elliott> pikhq: http://orange.blender.org/blog/first-european-hd-dvd-released-and-its-elephants-dream/ ho ho ho
14:36:36 <elliott> pikhq: but wikipedia said they did torrentzzzz
14:37:33 <elliott> <pikhq> http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/y4m/elephants_dream_480p24.y4m.xz , mencoder elephants_dream_480p24.y4m -ovc x264 -x264encopts qp=0:preset=slow -o elephants_dream_480p24.avi
14:37:45 <pikhq> You can remux it afterwards.
14:37:54 <elliott> pikhq: can't you just output it to mkv?
14:38:24 <elliott> as in it doesn't work or they like to pretend it doesn't?
14:38:49 <elliott> 0% [ ] 5,844,530 840K/s eta 42m 52s
14:39:04 <elliott> pikhq: http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/flac/ED/ which of these do i want?
14:39:32 <pikhq> elliott: The stereo one, probably.
14:39:51 <pikhq> No, the stereo one. It's "stereo" for stereo.
14:40:05 <cheater_> elliott: you want the "St" one
14:40:13 <cheater_> or L, R, and C mixed to left and right
14:40:23 <cheater_> (since Center usually contains the dialogue)
14:40:48 <cpressey> last thing i saw last night was Sgeo asking whether V8 was any good... i didn't have the opportunity to explain how it is linked to the Last Supper
14:40:51 <elliott> pikhq: OK, easy way to mix that in? Just give it to mencoder?
14:40:53 <pikhq> elliott: Or you could wait until I'm willing to post a torrent so you could have a single 5.1 FLAC.
14:41:03 <elliott> pikhq: That would be nice :P
14:41:11 <pikhq> elliott: -audiofile the_file_here
14:41:32 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, most video players *won't* automatically mix that down to stereo audio.
14:45:16 <elliott> I would just like to say that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_ICcz6kXP0.
14:45:27 <elliott> pikhq: even if you tell it to? like as an option
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14:51:20 <elliott> pikhq: NAND flash is accelerating faster than Moore's law
14:51:28 <elliott> "Due to its relatively simple structure and high demand for higher capacity, NAND flash memory is the most aggressively scaled technology among electronic devices. The heavy competition among the top few manufacturers only adds to the aggressiveness. Current projections show the technology to reach approximately 20 nm by around late 2011. While the expected shrink timeline is a factor of two every three years per original version of Moore's law,
14:51:28 <elliott> this has recently been accelerated in the case of NAND flash to a factor of two every two years."
14:51:32 <elliott> "The aggressive trend of process design rule shrinks in NAND Flash memory technology effectively accelerates Moore's Law."
14:51:39 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NAND_scaling_timeline.png
14:52:50 <cpressey> not a real law anyway, OK to accelerate it
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14:57:14 <cheater_> also: nice: http://www.ambiosonics.de/session26/STE001A.mp3
14:58:27 <cheater_> http://www.ambiosonics.de/session26/STE001B.mp3
14:59:57 <elliott> "Ed, I know I've only been around now and again - the family and work come first! - but I have the real inside scoop on an atheist meeting in the UK. Some really big names, some really shocking talks." -- Conservapedia
15:01:51 <cheater_> pikhq: it's OK to answer my question
15:14:03 <elliott> cpressey: "In our HTML version of last week's SNCJ, we noted that Iowa had ended their fiscal year with a $755 budget surplus. This was supposed to say $755 million. We regret the error."
15:15:56 <fizzie> elliott: You can use "-af hrtf" to do a headphone-optimized multichannel-to-stereo with spatiality; or you can use "-af pan=[suitable options]" to manually mix the channels however you wish. (I think the default routing indeed is just to truncate the 'extra' channels.)
15:16:26 <elliott> fizzie: Can you just do "mix everything on the left side to left, everything on the right to right, and centre at 50% volume in both channels"?
15:16:33 <elliott> Well, plus some scaling for typical distances to those speakers.
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15:18:06 <fizzie> Manually with pan, sure; I'm not sure if there's a default for that.
15:18:16 <elliott> Or I could just use the stereo file. :P
15:18:33 <fizzie> The hrtf trick is nice for headphones, though.
15:19:32 <elliott> Wow, that uncompressed 3D animation is some schweet-looking shit.
15:20:17 <fizzie> Some of the codecs might also do more or less sensible downmixing; the -channels N option says "In that case [of AC-3 multichannel stuff] liba52 does the decoding by default and correctly downmixes the audio into the requested number of channels."
15:20:47 <fizzie> Probably flac-decoding won't do anything clever.
15:21:34 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
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15:28:18 <elliott> "“Not Privileged”…God is a GEOCENTRIC Creator, because He is at the
15:28:18 <elliott> ‘center of all things’, including His universe, and whilst He is also the
15:28:18 <elliott> WORD, His written Word (Holy Scripture) is therefore GEOCENTRIC as
15:28:18 <elliott> well, being the ‘center of all truth’ written, and if we (The Earth) are
15:28:18 <elliott> the Lord’s “footstool”, then it is logical for the Earth to be
15:28:19 <elliott> GECENTRICIALLY located at the ‘center of the universe’ beneath His
15:30:39 <fizzie> elliott: I think PulseAudio will mix things down for you automagically, though. (At least if I mplayer a 5.1 FLAC file, I get six per-app volume control sliders, and output to a two-channel sink. (But I couldn't begin to guess how well it does that, and whether it just discards channels.)
15:30:48 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, uh, PulseAudio.
15:31:01 <fizzie> Ah, you did that already. Never mind, then.
15:31:13 <elliott> fizzie: It's a peaceful life now, without graphical volume controls as it is.
15:31:51 <fizzie> You're missing out on Ubuntu 10.10.10.10.10's "control your music player via the volume control" thing. (Not that I've even seen it, but it was advertised as a hot new feature.)
15:32:25 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, I ... don't use Rhythmbox.
15:32:51 <fizzie> Yes, I saw that; you were using your Spherecubes or whatevers.
15:33:25 <elliott> fizzie: Currently I'm... "between music players".
15:33:59 <fizzie> It's good to take a break; it wouldn't be fair to the next one if it were just a rebound music player.
15:34:59 <elliott> fizzie: My last music player cheated on me with another guy. I'm a monogamous software user; I refuse to use any program unless I'm the only user.
15:35:11 <fizzie> 88.2 kHz, huh. I wasn't aware people actually use that.
15:35:34 <elliott> pikhq will now yell at whoever did that.
15:36:16 <elliott> "Personally, I hear a huge difference when tracking at higher sample rates like 96kHz, and the detail is stunning, but once you convert to 44.1kHz (CD quality) the detail you had captured disappears." -- ah, quack audiophiles.
15:36:21 <fizzie> http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-downloads-testfiles.aspx -- the first place I found a 5.1 FLAC sample from.
15:37:02 <elliott> fizzie: "*Please note: Currently no 5.1 files are available for download."
15:37:18 <fizzie> I think it means "files other than this sample here", yes.
15:37:31 <elliott> http://bleep.com/ switched from FLAC to WAV a while ago and this saddens me.
15:39:05 <fizzie> There's also a 192 kHz stereo sample, but that's not surprising; I just thought the whole 11.025/22.05/44.1 sequence stopped there, and everyone going higher went 48/96/192, not to 88.2 (and presumably to 176.4 kHz next).
15:39:31 <elliott> apparently people do 88.2 so that downconversion to 44.1 is easier
15:41:36 <fizzie> FLAC "supports linear sample rates from 1Hz - 655350Hz in 1Hz increments" -- isn't that a bit strange limit too? I could sort-of see 10 Hz .. 65535 Hz with a two-byte field or something, but they explicitly say it's a 1 Hz increment.
15:41:55 <elliott> fizzie: Maybe there's, like, overhead in each little... sample bit.
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15:42:07 <elliott> So that going any higher would mean there's no room and you'd have to split it across two thingies?
15:44:18 <Ilari> It really is 1Hz-655350Hz in 1Hz increments.
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15:44:56 <elliott> Perhaps 655351 would push some sort of periodic header over a limit causing it to be split and... I really don't know.
15:45:50 <elliott> Fun things to do: Read "learn English" forums.
15:45:51 <elliott> [[Am I on the right track? Are you a train?
15:45:52 <elliott> Oh, another idiom! Yes you are!]]
15:47:14 <Ilari> The field itself would go to 1048575Hz, but apparently other things break if it would be larger than 655350Hz.
15:58:44 <elliott> "Scotland is a prime example of what happens in societies which adopt the anti Biblical atheistic philosophy of evolution."
16:02:06 <yorick> what's wrong with scotland?
16:02:50 <elliott> Nothing at all, that's why it's so amusing.
16:02:58 <elliott> Picking on Scotland as a prime example of society's depravity.
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16:06:02 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 7.5G 2010-10-22 16:05 elephants_dream_480p24.y4m
16:06:02 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 1.6G 2010-02-07 19:17 elephants_dream_480p24.y4m.xz
16:27:46 <elliott> $ mencoder elephants_dream_480p24.y4m -audiofile ED-CM-St-16bit.flac -of lavf -ovc x264 -x264encopts qp=0:preset=slow -o elephants_dream_480p24.mkv
16:28:06 <elliott> Audio format 0x43614c66 is incompatible with '-oac copy', please try '-oac pcm' instead or use '-fafmttag' to override it.
16:32:16 * elliott just creates a pure video to remux later
16:49:38 <cpressey> i have a sudden urge to write iterators which yield further iterators in an unbounded sequence and then iterate them in some general recursive way hey Phantom_Hoover hasn't been here much recently has he oh well time for more coffee I guess
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16:54:50 <elliott> cpressey: what... time is it
16:55:18 <elliott> "Umm, Saddest Turtle, I think I'm goingt o hang out with your cousin instead of you today. Also, all days." --Buttersafe
16:57:07 <elliott> cpressey: i prescribe coffee
16:58:00 <cpressey> the recursive iterator thing isn't actually that interesting
16:58:22 <cpressey> except maybe if the language implementation breaks in interesting ways if you stress it
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17:03:17 <elliott> Video stream: 14317.289 kbit/s
17:05:03 -!- evincar has joined.
17:07:19 -!- mycroftiv has changed nick to MYCROFTIV.
17:15:28 <elliott> MYCROFTIV SURE IS SHOUTING
17:15:35 <elliott> evincar sure is of autumn (did i remember your name right)
17:15:50 <MYCROFTIV> IVE BEEN TOLD ITS INTERNATIONAL CAPS LOCK DAY
17:16:11 <elliott> MYCROFTIV: ARE YOU STILL A PLAN 9 WEENIE
17:16:20 <MYCROFTIV> SO FOR TODAY WRITE ALL CODE IN OLD FORTRAN AND 80S BASIC - AND YES I AM
17:16:32 <elliott> MYCROFTIV: PROTIP IF YOU HOLD DOWN SHIFT you can type normally.
17:16:37 <evincar> MYCROFTIV: It's not Billy Mays Day.
17:17:04 <elliott> BILLY MAYS DAY WAS MERGED WITH COCAINE DAY RECENTLY
17:17:27 <evincar> Oh, no, you're right, caps lock day it is.
17:18:16 <elliott> WHY IS THERE TWO INTERNATIONAL CAPSLOCK DAYS
17:20:07 <elliott> anyone know if FLAC has an AVI audio format tag? >_>
17:23:40 <evincar> No idea. What are you trying to do?
17:23:59 <elliott> evincar: We're playing around with lossless HD video.
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17:44:54 <cpressey> THEY ALLOW ME TO BE AWARE OF TWELVE THINGS A YEAR
17:49:03 <webquint> cpressey: BUT THE MONTHS ARE MULTIPURPOSE!!!! :D
17:49:16 <webquint> elliott: so, who're you doing?
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17:52:52 <cpressey> nice, colordiff seems to come with cdiff now
17:53:01 <cpressey> maybe it has for a while and i never noticed
17:58:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm cdiff seems cool. Always loved colordiff of course
17:58:49 <elliott> coppro: THINKPAD ENGINEERING
17:58:57 <coppro> elliott: I mean actually yay
17:59:02 <coppro> I get a new free battery with full life
17:59:08 <elliott> coppro: ...this is what's wrong with everything
17:59:14 <Vorpal> coppro, broke in what way? mechanical?
17:59:22 <coppro> Vorpal: probably the controller broke
17:59:39 <coppro> in any case, it doesn't charge/discharge, though it reports that it has 67% charge
17:59:48 <Vorpal> coppro, be glad it isn't a mac, then you would have to send it in to get the battery replaced
17:59:49 <elliott> "Apple is deprecating its support for Java on Mac OS X"
18:00:20 <coppro> double awesome: the tech shop on campus is a Lenovo shop too
18:00:30 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, apple supports java? As opposed to sun or more recently oracle?
18:01:14 <coppro> elliott: dollars to donuts it has to do with the mac store
18:02:06 <Vorpal> coppro, is this some new thing separate from the normal apple retail stores?
18:02:52 <coppro> Vorpal: yes, it's an app store, except for mac
18:05:24 <coppro> Vorpal: I smell that Java apps may not be permitted on it
18:06:22 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: SCREW YOU ALL).
18:06:59 <coppro> (this is both the worst and the best thing to come to desktop computing)
18:08:11 <Vorpal> as in, what makes you say "the best thing"
18:08:18 <Vorpal> worst I can easily see yes
18:08:23 <coppro> Vorpal: Because package management for Linux has existed for a long time and it's awesome. It's logical to commercialize it with the OS (it's already been done externally, e.g. Steam). Unfortunately, standard "fucking Apple and their control" applies
18:09:36 <Vorpal> coppro, hm, it does dependency stuff and such?
18:10:17 <Ilari> OMG: arin|US|ipv4|50.128.0.0|8388608|20101021|allocated
18:10:19 <Vorpal> coppro, my experience of closed source is that even for linux such tends to bundle about every library that it can rather than using those already installed on the system. Exception would be libc
18:10:31 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:11:00 <Vorpal> Ilari, why OMG at that allocation?
18:11:26 <Vorpal> also where is the netmask
18:12:16 <coppro> Vorpal: I would butVorwn. I ipackasne sul he librarie yone cciple is always good Alse rprising,do and AAPL and one of them is retarded.
18:12:49 <elliott> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/114732870_bab0bdae2c_b.jpg
18:12:51 <Ilari> And look at the date...
18:12:52 <Vorpal> coppro, err? "I would [007F][007F][007F]butVorwn"
18:13:07 <elliott> <coppro> Vorpal: I would butVorwn. I ipackasne sul he librarie yone cciple is always good Alse rprising,do and AAPL and one of them is retarded.
18:13:26 <Ilari> So /9 allocated yesterday...
18:13:39 <Vorpal> oh right I see. some sort of drop-letters encoding
18:13:47 <Vorpal> don't have time to decrypt it right now, food is ready
18:14:20 <elliott> ? ?! ?! ! ?! ?!!!! ?!? ? ? !
18:14:30 <elliott> Ilari: that's... that's big, why are we allocating that much
18:15:02 -!- elliott has left (?).
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18:16:26 <Ilari> This IPv4 depletion tool says that ARIN would request and get 2 /8s from IANA at any time.
18:18:19 <coppro> Vorpal: I apologize, my computer crashed
18:18:31 <coppro> Vorpal: it's good because it was going to happen, and thus it is better sooner than later
18:18:41 <Ilari> Which is a surprise. Don't know if it takes that almost-/8s released back into account...
18:18:55 <coppro> also, it almost certainly won't do dependencies, because all the applications on there will probably depend only on system libraries
18:19:02 <Vorpal> coppro, why was it going to crash?
18:19:45 <coppro> Vorpal: seriously, think about it. We've seen commercial platforms before, like Steam. Integrating them into the OS is the next logical step, and MSFT is retarded, leaving it to AAPL, the only other significant commercial operating system company.
18:19:58 <coppro> Vorpal: no, my computer did crash
18:20:13 <Ilari> Probably not, as 45/8 completely marked as assigned.
18:20:59 <Vorpal> coppro, running what OS?
18:21:20 <coppro> I think it was the wireless driver running out of memory that did it
18:21:26 <Vorpal> coppro, huh, never seen linux crash in any way leading to "butVorwn. I ipackasne sul he librarie yone cciple is always good Alse rprising,do and AAPL and one of them is retarded."
18:21:38 <coppro> sort of broke the input stream
18:21:40 <Ilari> Worst case scenario would be the "run on the bank" scenario. Would result quick exhaustion of IANA pool.
18:21:55 <coppro> and then the wireless driver (based on what flashed on my screen before it died) probably failed
18:23:07 <Vorpal> coppro, hm okay. still seems like an implausible result. "not sending a garbled string" seems a more likely outcome. Or just sending completely random data. That line still looked like words and so on, just not actually existing words
18:23:15 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:23:30 <coppro> Vorpal: I assure you I attempted to type something and that the result was a subset of what I attempted to type
18:23:37 <coppro> apparently the enter key made it too
18:23:41 <Vorpal> coppro, ah, that makes some sense
18:23:57 <Vorpal> coppro, out of order or just dropped chars?
18:26:43 <Ilari> Someone who is familar with WHOIS could look up who grabbed that /9...
18:27:20 <Vorpal> what linux needs (because dropping overcommitting of memory is going to break too many things that depends on it) is some sort of memory reservations for critical programs. Like if syslog is pid X you could say "pid X must be able to allocate up to Y MB, swapping to do so is okay". This differs from mlock() since that would forbid swapping as well
18:28:28 <Ilari> How did I feel it was some large ISP...
18:28:30 <Vorpal> Ilari, anyway just "whois 50.128.0.0/9" in the terminal worked.
18:28:38 <Vorpal> though it did complain a bit:
18:28:40 <Vorpal> # Query terms are ambiguous. The query is assumed to be:
18:28:51 <Vorpal> (which was indeed the correct interpretation)
18:31:55 <Vorpal> coppro, what were you doing that caused the OOM btw?
18:32:23 <elliott> 21:53:21 <Sgeo> What's V8 like?
18:33:40 <elliott> 21:55:14 <Sgeo> ...Lossless encode from 48GB to 6GB?
18:33:41 <elliott> 21:58:14 <Sgeo> What's the bitrate/
18:33:41 <elliott> 21:58:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Currently, 73,000 kbps.
18:33:41 <elliott> 21:59:15 <Sgeo> Wait, that's a bad thing for streaming
18:33:53 <elliott> "I don't just want reasonably-sized lossless 1080p encodes; I want to watch them on YouTube!"
18:33:58 <elliott> 21:59:54 <Sgeo> Higher means more bandwidth needed for the same amount of time, right?
18:35:43 <elliott> 22:21:34 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't believe that........ Make a proper game.
18:37:55 <nooga> I THINK THAT CREATORS OF BASH HAVE TOO MUCH SENSE OF HUMOUR
18:38:09 <nooga> ffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuu
18:41:25 <Ilari> And that 8M block isn't the only one this week... There seems to be at least 2.5M of other allocations, pushing allocations from ARIN this week to over 10M addresses...
18:48:31 <elliott> Ilari: so are they trying to use up ipv6 as quickly as they did ipv4?
18:48:34 <cpressey> nooga: FI FI, THAT'S NOT SO OD
18:49:51 <Ilari> The IPv6 IANA pool is at 99%... That's going to take a while. Dunno how long the IPv4 pool lasts...
18:51:44 <nooga> WHERE'S THE LOGIC?
18:53:15 <cpressey> oh yeah it is like that isn't it
18:54:04 <cpressey> it inherited esac and fi from sh, i'm pretty sure
18:54:23 <cpressey> and i know I've seen do ... od *somewhere*
18:54:35 <cpressey> although, that *somewhere* might be Draco
18:55:45 <cpressey> elliott: I have gone back and forth on this, but I have decided that at present, I cannot handle Ruby.
18:55:54 <elliott> cpressey: What tipped you over the edge?
18:56:48 <cpressey> elliott: Ehh... two things, sort of: contemplating writing my netcat replacement in it and looking at its libraries; and, uh, that what it calls "metaprogramming".
18:57:03 <cpressey> But also everything else about it.
18:57:06 <elliott> cpressey: Its networking libraries are actually really nice, compared to Python.
18:57:14 <elliott> Its other libraries are... actually they're good, but the documentation is lacking.
18:57:34 <cpressey> I could not figure out how to change or set the buffering on the IO object. Which has Ruby-level and system-level buffering.
18:57:38 <elliott> cpressey: The metaprogramming... ok, yes, you can do any damn thing you want to a class at any point. BUT SANE PEOPLE HATE YOU DOING THIS
18:57:41 <elliott> Oh, that's just one method
18:58:27 <cpressey> it seemed to be that you are not a "real" Ruby programmer until you have metaprogrammed BECAUSE IT IS POWER POOOOOWWWWEEEEEERRRRRRRRR well ok
18:58:42 <cpressey> just getting that impression from some jerkass, probably
18:58:51 <elliott> cpressey: you talked to someone?
18:58:55 <elliott> omg you totally didn't listen to me
18:58:59 <cpressey> no, someone's site or blog or something
18:59:05 <elliott> cpressey: western rubyists
18:59:16 <elliott> apart from... people in here :P
18:59:25 <nooga> who's a western rubyist?
18:59:29 <cpressey> this was one of these people i suppose.
18:59:34 <nooga> i don't like fanboys
18:59:35 <elliott> nooga: non-japanese rubyists.
19:00:23 <cpressey> Still, even aside from those two points... it's just... really gnarly tangly and turns me off, AT PRESENT. Tomorrow, I may like it again.
19:00:31 <nooga> that say "YEAH I CAN CODE *RUBY*, I DID SEVERAL RAILS 2.X APPS, I'M SO RAD, GTFO WITH YOUR COMPUTER SCIENCE"
19:00:36 <elliott> cpressey: http://sprunge.us/afWK
19:00:38 <Vorpal> <nooga> I THINK THAT CREATORS OF BASH HAVE TOO MUCH SENSE OF HUMOUR <-- fi you say so :P
19:00:46 <elliott> cpressey: here is what sane people think about metaprogramming (zed shaw is no longer sane, but that's irrelevant)
19:00:52 <elliott> the abuse of ruby metaprogramming
19:00:52 <nooga> AND THEY STATE THAT THEY EARN SHITLOADS OF $
19:00:58 <elliott> the rafb links don't work but
19:01:07 <elliott> cpressey: the first one basically opened a class in the standard ruby logger
19:01:10 <elliott> and yanked out all formatting
19:01:16 <elliott> replacing it with a message that ignored all custom formatting
19:01:19 <elliott> and just printed out the message
19:01:45 <elliott> cpressey: that's from ruby-talk
19:01:51 <cpressey> "What's wrong with you people?"
19:02:07 <elliott> cpressey: to be honest... using ruby was awesome as fuck in 2005.
19:02:13 <elliott> nobody had raped the metaprogramming to death yet
19:02:17 <cpressey> i think that one question explains a hell of a lot about most software and languages
19:02:19 <elliott> DHH was just some asswipe with some upstart new web framework
19:02:21 <nooga> let's wait for monkey patching in 2.0
19:02:25 <elliott> why the lucky stiff was at full steam
19:02:29 <elliott> and made everything wonderful
19:02:35 <elliott> and everyone still abided by Matz Is Nice So We Are Nice
19:03:16 <elliott> cpressey: now, using ruby is probably awesome if you're in japan. and speak japanese.
19:03:25 <elliott> and ignore everyone outside the country when it comes to ruby
19:03:38 <elliott> nooga: as far as i can tell the communities are basically entirely split
19:03:44 <elliott> between the native ruby community and "everyone else"
19:03:48 <elliott> and the latter has been infected by douchebags
19:03:49 <cpressey> if you are in japan and speak japanese, you missed out on perl, i bet
19:03:55 <elliott> and is now the butt of just about any joke.
19:03:59 <cpressey> so ruby is your perl and that's kind of cool
19:04:07 <elliott> cpressey: ruby is definitely a nicer perl than perl is
19:04:15 <Vorpal> elliott, ugh about "http://sprunge.us/afWK", does "re-opening a class" mean what I think?
19:04:18 <elliott> perl - some of the most heinous insanity + smalltalk object system!
19:04:39 <nooga> but Larry Wall is so cool
19:05:01 <elliott> nooga: i dunno, i'm not down with the let's-invent-a-language-so-that-we-can-give-this-native-culture-CHRISTIANITY! shit
19:05:18 <elliott> (matz is a mormon missionary! ...but i don't think they invent languages to translate the bible into, generally)
19:05:35 <elliott> cpressey: seriously what language do people use?
19:05:43 <elliott> like if they're not using haskell, or python, or ruby, or perl
19:05:48 <elliott> and they want a scripting language i.e. not C
19:05:50 <cpressey> it would seem appropriate somehow if guido was one of those obnoxious atheist types
19:05:59 <elliott> well not hideously obnoxious
19:06:09 <elliott> i'm an obnoxious atheist type! well sort of.
19:06:15 <fizzie> They script with PHP, of course.
19:06:23 <elliott> i just don't talk to religious people usually :P
19:06:27 <cpressey> elliott: WHAT DO THEY DO? they use one of those you listed.
19:06:36 <nooga> PHP IS THE WORST LANGUAGE EVER. PERIOD
19:06:49 <cpressey> elliott: THEY DO NOT DISTINGUISH
19:06:55 <elliott> nooga: immediately came up with an argument but... it had a placeholder for [language worse than PHP] and...
19:07:26 <yorick> PHP is the worst language ever!
19:07:33 <elliott> PHP is the worst language ever!
19:07:51 <cpressey> elliott: most people do not have sufficient capacity to understand why technical things are good/bad, for them to be capable of making any critical distinction between those three languages.
19:08:03 <elliott> cpressey: i said sane people.
19:08:11 <cpressey> THERE ARE NO SANE PEOPLE HAHAHAHAHA
19:08:33 <cpressey> they go "ARGH this sucks, what do people USE?"
19:08:47 <yorick> sane people are boring!
19:08:59 <elliott> yorick: i just meant non-stupid people really
19:09:05 <cpressey> they invent their own language and then they kill themselves
19:09:39 <nooga> yorick: i could swear that we've met on IRC several years ago
19:09:47 <yorick> nooga: we haven't, probably
19:09:59 <cpressey> they get a lobotomy so they can enjoy PHP.
19:10:00 <nooga> and you worked on Open Tibia then ;D
19:10:14 <yorick> nooga: I haven't, at least not that I know of
19:10:38 <nooga> is yorick a common name in a place where you live?
19:10:40 <yorick> someone else must have stolen my name before I was using it
19:10:41 <cpressey> I am fully in favour of inventing new languages, but, research and production are two different thigns, and *genuine* improvements come hard.
19:10:42 <elliott> what is it with russian people and tibia -- note: nooga is russian for the purpose of this line
19:11:16 <yorick> nooga: it has an occurence of 0.0148%
19:12:17 <cpressey> elliott: Have you ever heard of Merd or Felix?
19:12:18 <nooga> they should finally get themselves some normal alphabet
19:12:25 <elliott> cpressey: I posted merd to reddit a while back.
19:12:32 <elliott> cpressey: I WOULD TOTALLY USE THE FUCK OUT OF MERD. It is a dead project.
19:12:36 <elliott> Can't find creator on Google. Wept.
19:12:55 <elliott> "The smart upgrade from C++" oh i am totally sold.
19:13:08 <yorick> that's like google go!
19:13:10 <elliott> cpressey: oh joy, the code looks like python.
19:13:16 <elliott> that's a python section of a plugin thing
19:13:17 <cpressey> My main exposure to Felix is the time irs creator came on the Lua mailing lists and wouldn't shut up about GC.
19:13:31 <cpressey> It seems to have some good features but is somewhat Falcon-like in its EVERYTHINGNESS
19:13:47 <elliott> it's actually relatively coherently-designed
19:13:48 <cpressey> Merd seems good but too unusual in some respects to ever catch on.
19:13:51 <elliott> it's just that a lot of the features interact.
19:14:01 <elliott> merd could be basically like a regular pl
19:14:11 <elliott> half of the work was basically to make dynamic stuff just work
19:14:24 <cpressey> elliott: the spaces-influence-precedence thing is just too weird. plus, being named after shit, is not great marketing.
19:14:31 <elliott> cpressey: ok the first one
19:14:34 <yorick> static typing with polymorphism!
19:14:35 <elliott> that is literally one line in the feature list
19:14:40 <elliott> get over it, it's nowhere near certain :P
19:14:43 <elliott> and the examples don't use it
19:14:47 <elliott> cpressey: also you can always rename a language
19:14:58 <yorick> I think felix basically IS python
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19:15:06 <elliott> yorick: it has header files.
19:15:08 <zzo38> \tt\def\1{\catcode92=12\catcode123=12\catcode125=12\input\jobname\end}\1
19:15:18 <cpressey> elliott: then someone should fork merd and rename it, and we'd be talking about a different language :)
19:15:21 <elliott> rather than python code in the benchmark stuff :P
19:15:27 <elliott> cpressey: have fun with that
19:15:40 <cpressey> elliott: no no, i'm a-gonna design me OWN
19:15:52 <cpressey> (i will have fun with that too though)
19:16:08 <yorick> elliott: that's even worse :D
19:16:12 -!- augur has joined.
19:16:27 <cpressey> yeah, also Felix is far too C++-associated
19:16:55 <yorick> python just does print "blah"
19:17:05 <elliott> yorick: except when it doesn't.
19:17:15 <yorick> elliott: then you use print "blah",
19:17:20 <elliott> yorick: that appends a space
19:17:25 <elliott> don't want that? sys.stdout.write WOOOOOT
19:17:29 <yorick> elliott: then you use sys.stdout.write
19:18:50 <elliott> cpressey: wait what does that do :D
19:18:54 <elliott> yorick: #python is that way ->
19:19:16 <yorick> elliott: you mean the Twisted channel :P
19:19:29 <cpressey> i am the fungot of language syntax
19:19:29 <fungot> cpressey: or emacs-style editor i'd like to print "" array pointer "" array pointer. woof.
19:20:12 <yorick> I have to append "without using twisted" to my python questions nowadays to not get the answer "use twisted"
19:20:17 <yorick> now I get "use twisted anyways"
19:20:23 <zzo38> See if you can understand this TeX code: \tt\def\1{\catcode92=12\catcode123=12\catcode125=12\input\jobname\end}\1
19:20:23 <cpressey> i should write something in it someday so i can hate it first-hand
19:20:55 -!- webquint has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:21:19 <zzo38> cpressey: That is probably the best way to hate it I think you are correct
19:21:24 <elliott> yorick: #python is the worst channel ever
19:21:43 <yorick> sryously, what channel has "NO LOL" in its topic
19:21:45 <elliott> non-networking-related question: "How do I do this?" "Don't do that." "I want to do that." "Don't." "What should I do instead then?" "Nothing. Kill yourself."
19:22:13 <elliott> networking-related question: "How do I-" "Use Twisted." "But-" "Use Twisted." "My question i-" "Use Twisted." "I'M USING TWISTED?" "No problem then." "Actually I'm not." "Use Twisted." "FUCK YOU"
19:22:15 <cpressey> i've seen them take down lollers before, too.
19:23:29 <zzo38> Do you understand this TeX code?
19:23:48 <yorick> it looks like it does something evil
19:24:21 <zzo38> yorick: Do you mean, the TeX code?
19:24:35 <yorick> zzo38: I do mean, the TeX code.
19:24:47 <zzo38> yorick: What do you think it does?
19:24:58 <zzo38> (At first, without executing it)
19:26:28 <yorick> zzo38: I think it formats stuff as postscript :)
19:27:01 <zzo38> yorick: No. (Postscript is done by separate programs if needed)
19:28:18 <zzo38> Try it then. And then once you see what it does, try to figure out how it works.
19:28:26 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:29:37 <cpressey> Tip: if your project is a library for programmers, example code on front page of project website please.
19:30:46 <yorick> cpressey: I think that would scare people away
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19:31:25 <zzo38> yorick: I will tell you. That TeX code typesets its own code.
19:31:34 <zzo38> cpressey: I suppose that can help sometimes.
19:32:34 <zzo38> (It isn't a true quine, because it uses file input)
19:33:12 <Sgeo> Dear websites/Opera: Stop making it so that Opera keeps thinking that something changed in your tab
19:35:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do you know what is causing it?
19:35:48 <Sgeo> Probably some AJAXy stuff
19:35:52 <Sgeo> I have no idea
19:36:50 <zzo38> The @{ ... @} command in Enhanced CWEB acts kind of like the \[ ... \] in Falcon. The @{ ... @} are typeset as $\langle\!\{$ ... $\}\!\rangle$
19:37:28 <zzo38> And if a function xyzabc$() is defined inside of a @{ ... @} block, then whenever the identifier 'xyzabc' is encountered it will call that function
19:38:05 <coppro> Vorpal: I accidentally make -j 45
19:39:07 <coppro> which is a 100% chance of an OOM on such a huge project, because the link steps are massive and so every thread gets hung up linking a number of independent libraries and eating up all available memory
19:40:10 <zzo38> coppro: Then cancel it?
19:40:49 <coppro> zzo38: that requires getting the computer to respond to the cancel
19:40:57 <coppro> (I actually tried the OOM killer, but that didn't work :/)
19:42:55 <coppro> alt-sysrq-f should save my computer, dammit
19:43:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Error: Unable to display error message.).
19:45:10 <coppro> elliott: invoke oom killer
19:45:19 <coppro> (mnemonic: memory [f]ull)
19:45:23 <elliott> <cpressey> Tip: if your project is a library for programmers, example code on front page of project website please.
19:45:29 <elliott> <yorick> cpressey: I think that would scare people away ;; LOL
19:45:38 <elliott> "I'm a programmer looking for a library but code -- NO"
19:45:42 <coppro> tip: if you do an unrecognized sysrq, it prints a small guide
19:45:55 <elliott> coppro: only if your display is working, i imagine
19:46:20 <elliott> coppro: i can't seem to make that happen
19:46:34 <coppro> elliott: well, you actually have to make it to a vt to get that since it won't work if X has the screen
19:46:42 <elliott> coppro: yeaaaaaaaah not that easy
19:46:56 <coppro> but since the vt switch is in the kernel, that should usually be possible if it's a true oom and not a kernel hang
19:47:02 <coppro> (it may take a little while, though)
19:50:11 <Sgeo> pikhq, you're of type ()?
19:50:25 <Sgeo> Actually, that diesn't quite make sense
19:52:12 -!- antivigilante has joined.
19:52:43 <Sgeo> It was supposed to be since pikhq is returning but not returning anything. Then I started thinking in terms of Haskell. But there, return means something utterly different
19:55:37 <pikhq> Clearly I'm of type m () for some monad m.
20:01:51 <elliott> cpressey: pikhq: proposal: log-structured file system, except here log means actual log
20:04:00 <pikhq> How... Does that work?
20:04:36 <elliott> pikhq: that's for me to not know and you to invent.
20:04:47 <elliott> maybe instead of a binary tree
20:05:11 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:05:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:08:45 -!- quintopia has changed nick to mibquint.
20:08:55 -!- mibquint has changed nick to quintopia.
20:09:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yor the mourt I woarked in.
20:11:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ik it pins ont fleur. Crik tek book o dee la. "PASTEUR".
20:11:50 <fizzie> Value-added tax of value-added taxness.
20:12:11 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, please bring some sanity into this conversation.
20:12:12 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: problem solved. :d i had a q-tip, i could get ' messages posted per hour' graphs, i'm sure that'd have got you noticed. we had to manipulate huge lists of quantifier logic _with our hands_!
20:12:42 <cpressey> our beautiful, beautiful hands!
20:14:30 -!- wareya has joined.
20:14:39 <elliott> Five yeers go, past telemetry. Castrate orchids, saidded he. Waltz the fourt I groned in.
20:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god, I have a week's worth of webcomics to rake through.
20:16:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: where've you been?
20:17:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I am informed that broadband here has to be attained through phone lines, if at all.
20:18:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, uh. Same here.
20:18:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wait "here"
20:19:31 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:20:50 <fizzie> Ireland, land of the irate.
20:21:27 <quintopia> fungot, give them some fiber please
20:21:28 <fungot> quintopia: i like to pretend i'm not)
20:21:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm surrounded by deadzones for cellular internet, let alone fibre.
20:21:44 <elliott> "Unicode 6.0 adds 2,088 new characters. These include 63 Emoticons, important for use in text messages"
20:21:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: GSM should work anywhere.
20:22:08 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It might be patented by someone; it sounds so obvious, and isn't that one of the properties of patentable things?
20:22:08 <elliott> And don't say it's not sufficient; it was my main internet connection for months. You know why.
20:22:08 <quintopia> I HOPE ONE OF THEM IS A THUMBS-UP EMOTICON
20:22:20 <quintopia> BECAUSE THAT LACKS A SATISFACTORY ONE-LINE ASCII REPRESENTATION
20:22:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, the borrowed iPhone I had sporadic access to cut out entirely a fairly short distance from where I am now.
20:23:10 <elliott> http://everything2.com/title/Unicode+6.0
20:23:23 <cpressey> PHANTOM HOOVER ARE YOU AWARE THAT TODAY IS INTERNATIONAL CAPSLOCK DAY
20:23:30 <elliott> quintopia: I occasionally use "(Y)" after the Windows Live (eurgh, but...) shortcut for it.
20:23:37 <fizzie> I am doing this internet with the three-and-a-half G. At http://altpary.org/2010/ ({shame,use}less plug; useless since no-one's probably going to come and fly here on such short notice.)
20:23:50 <cpressey> ALSO I AM MAKING IT A PERSONAL OMIT ALL PUNCTUATION DAY BUT YOU NEEDNT FEEL PRESSURE TO OBSERVE THAT PART
20:24:15 <fizzie> I TYPO; altparty.org, not -pary.
20:24:28 <quintopia> elliott: me too, but i confused Gregor that way
20:25:45 <fizzie> ^I^N^T^E^R^N^A^T^I^O^N^A^L ^C^T^R^L ^D^A^Y
20:25:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, wait, Finland seriously has a space travel party?
20:26:05 <elliott> Audacity question! Anyone know how to deamplify (deplify?) some audio by 75%?
20:26:11 <elliott> That is, make the volume 25% of what it is now.
20:26:20 <elliott> <fizzie> I am doing this internet with the three-and-a-half G. At http://altpary.org/2010/ ({shame,use}less plug; useless since no-one's probably going to come and fly here on such short notice.)
20:26:30 <elliott> Wait it's not an alternative pary?
20:26:39 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's a new theme every year; last year's was cyberpunksity or some-such.
20:27:05 <elliott> The one before that was sex bots and WOW was attendance high.
20:27:12 <quintopia> elliott: the standard amplify function does that IIRC
20:27:22 <elliott> quintopia: i'm not sure what dB i want to be putting in, though
20:27:40 <elliott> quintopia: in fact it doesn't even let me amplify 0, the maximum is -0.4 to get it to peak at 0
20:27:49 <elliott> as one would assume that it's impossible to have something *above* clipping
20:27:58 <elliott> and thus 0 amplification should always work and be a nop
20:29:02 <quintopia> you should be able to calculate the value
20:29:05 <elliott> quintopia: but the -0.4 thing
20:29:44 <elliott> fizzie: re 88.2 KHz, lulz material: "Yeah, but for certain types of music 88.2khz is a tighter sound then 96khz(which is at times too loose). Its almost like the difference betweeen 44.1khz and 98khz."
20:29:54 <elliott> quintopia: <elliott> quintopia: in fact it doesn't even let me amplify 0, the maximum is -0.4 to get it to peak at 0 <elliott> which is rather odd <elliott> as one would assume that it's impossible to have something *above* clipping <elliott> and thus 0 amplification should always work and be a nop
20:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, I had a dream a few days ago wherein Sarah Palin held my family hostage.
20:30:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no dream, my friend. no dream
20:30:26 <quintopia> elliott: i read that and it still makes no sense
20:30:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHAT DID SHE DEMAND
20:30:54 <fizzie> elliott: Right, it's "tighter".
20:31:12 <Phantom_Hoover> And that I desperately wanted to get on the internet to see what the general reaction was.
20:31:16 <elliott> fizzie: "I go for the best 'capture I can, and I can hear the benifit of 96k converted material that has been SRCed down to 44.1"
20:31:50 <elliott> fizzie: Next line: "That old 82.2 to 44.1 theory could be a digital myth nowadays....", speaking of myths...
20:32:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:34:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I have also come to the conclusion that Freespace 2 stores its config somewhere in the luminiferous æther.
20:34:42 <quintopia> i have a portal to there in my bedroom
20:34:57 <quintopia> you can come use it for 25 plus airfare
20:35:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: googling suggests the source is available
20:35:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool. Can you get rid of my screwed up HUD settings for me?
20:35:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Reading the source will definitely work...
20:35:52 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: strace | grep open.
20:35:53 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: I have to remain on the outside to tweak the machinery and keep the portal stable. If I go in, it'll collapse and I'll be stuck there.
20:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> a) fs2_open also needs to be checked; b) I'm utterly awful at all source diving.
20:36:42 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, I've nuked .fs2_open, which is where save files and some other config is kept.
20:36:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: $ grep -ri config .
20:37:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe it's in the WINDOWS REGISTRY.
20:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> And I've tried running it with a different user, in a different directory, with only hardlinks to the executable and the data files.
20:37:29 <elliott> quintopia: ok, now how do i merge tracks :P
20:37:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: obviously it modifies its own binary
20:38:08 <evincar> elliott: You can only merge all tracks in the project by selecting "mix and render".
20:38:32 <elliott> evincar: Well, that... yes... makes sense. :P
20:38:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: check the binary permissions :P
20:39:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Hang on, I'll recompile, then use the binary from that.
20:39:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: dude it... no, it doesn't
20:40:49 <fizzie> Your FACE is being facetious.
20:42:35 <quintopia> elliott: select both, and choose "quick mix" off like. . .the edit menu?
20:43:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what was the Very Important Email?
20:44:16 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Deschutron
20:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh, just that I was interested in a suggestion he'd made on the dead forums.
20:47:19 <elliott> evincar: quintopia: Okay, less silly new question: I have four 44.1 kHz, 32-bit tracks that are... well not quite clipping but almost. Can I turn these into one 128 kHz track in Audacity?
20:47:28 <elliott> Then I can just convert it down, solving my problems.
20:47:57 <quintopia> it's probably capable of resampling, but i couldn't tell you how
20:48:11 <fizzie> I don't see how changing the samplin rate would help in amplitude clipping, though.
20:48:31 <elliott> I *may* be mixing up everything because I'm dumb.
20:48:37 <elliott> evincar: quintopia: Okay, less silly new question: I have four 44.1 kHz, 32-bit tracks that are... well not quite clipping but almost. Can I turn these into one 128-bit track in Audacity?
20:49:08 <evincar> elliott: You might be able to copy them into a new project and just change the project rate in the bottom toolbar.
20:49:18 <pikhq> elliott: BitTorrent is definitely the best way to watch TV.
20:49:19 <elliott> evincar: How does that help me mix them into one 128-bit track?
20:49:37 <quintopia> oh i think evincar's plan could work
20:50:37 <elliott> is definitely the best way to watch TV.
20:50:46 <evincar> ...well, disregard my statement, which was in response to your use of sampling rate when you meant sample size...
20:50:46 <fizzie> You just need two more bits for clipping problems; anyway, I would think any bit-depth conversion would scale the amplitudes, otherwise it's a bit silly.
20:51:19 <fizzie> Doesn't it have any sort of mix-and-divide thing? Pre-deampliying them will reduce precision, after all.
20:51:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it only me who is slightly depressed by the fact that he will never be as cool as DMM?
20:51:49 <fizzie> I think I'll unparticipate the discussion since I don't have Audacity to play with right now.
20:51:54 <elliott> <fizzie> Doesn't it have any sort of mix-and-divide thing? Pre-deampliying them will reduce precision, after all.
20:51:57 <elliott> that's why i don't want to do that
20:52:02 <pikhq> elliott: Well played.
20:52:07 <elliott> copy the data exactly into a 128-bit thing
20:52:19 <elliott> mix it all, since they all fit into 32-bit there's no lossinessery
20:52:23 <elliott> then just sample-convert that down
20:52:31 <fizzie> elliott: If you're summin them, you just need a 34-bit thing.
20:53:05 <elliott> fizzie: "16-bit PCM, 24-bit PCM, 32-bit float".
20:53:09 <elliott> That's some mighty support there.
20:53:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm -INT_MIN is undefined in C, isn't it? Assuming no tricks such as first casting the value to a larger integer type.
20:53:45 <elliott> quintopia: evincar: You two, figure it out. :P
20:53:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, not necessarily, but often, yes.
20:54:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, on my machine it seems like -INT_MIN == INT_MIN, which is quite reasonable, but here I want somewhat portable
20:55:08 <evincar> Vorpal: That's only guaranteed to work for unsigned types. Signed overflow behaviour is implementation-defined.
20:55:27 <evincar> unsigned int i = INT_MIN; i = -i; i == INT_MIN;
20:56:01 <Vorpal> evincar, hm good point
20:56:19 <Vorpal> evincar, also on one-complement -INT_MIN would be well defined wouldn't it?
20:56:24 <fizzie> You could go with MAX = min((unsigned)INT_MIN, (unsigned)INT_MAX), that way I think both MAX and -MAX will fit in an int.
20:56:53 <fizzie> Uh, with some fiddling, but anyway.
20:57:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, what I'm trying to get around is that abs(INT_MIN) is *undefined*, that is getting around it without complicating the code quite a bit
20:59:16 <elliott> evincar. How do I does it.
20:59:46 <fizzie> Was it so that C99 mandated the signed arithmetic is no longer undefined, just implementation-defined out of the three common alternatives? (I might misremember.)
20:59:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw it seems that for llabs(), gcc on x86-64 basically compiles the code to: llabs(n) = (n >> 0x3f) - (n ^ (n >> 0x3f)); (but using several registers avoiding repeating the same operation) if I "reverse engineered" the assembler output correctly.
20:59:53 <Vorpal> which looks quite insane
21:00:09 <Gregor> What's this hiring fiasco? :P
21:00:34 <evincar> I give Gregor a better offer.
21:01:12 <elliott> Gregor: How do I mix shit in audacity properly.
21:01:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ...w...why
21:01:40 <elliott> You can repair your relationship
21:01:46 <Gregor> elliott: Make sure you get the right consistency of shit, and use a large spoon.
21:02:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, for doing what? :)
21:02:06 <pikhq> I hire my cell phone.
21:02:32 <pikhq> My cell phone hires Phantom_Hoover.
21:02:56 <evincar> elliott: Why, prithee, do you think you need 128-bit samples in the first place?
21:03:20 <Phantom_Hoover> evincar, yours not to question why, yours to mix shit.
21:03:33 <fizzie> Assuming that was true, you could then in C99 do (x < -INT_MAX ? INT_MAX : abs(x)) to get a working "clipped" abs, since -INT_MAX is okay in all three of {twos-complement, ones-complement, sign-magnitude}. If that's what you want; you can't much get around the fact that there might not be a number big enough.
21:03:37 <evincar> And 32-bit isn't because...your audio is already clipped?
21:04:12 <evincar> Mixing several non-clipped samples won't result in clipping. Samples aren't mixed by addition. :P
21:04:42 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:05:13 <fizzie> How are they mixed, then, if not additively? I mean, does it clip the amplitudes of one track to half when I mix that and silence?
21:05:14 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know, I think I'm going to keep this 480p24 video of Elephants Dream. It's just wonderful. :)
21:05:32 <pikhq> Aaand screw the 1080p.
21:05:35 <elliott> pikhq: Strangely, while the avi played fine, I could not get flac in in any way that would play properly.
21:05:41 <elliott> pikhq: .mkv made it laaag like hell.
21:05:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually, my code works fine as long abs(INT_MIN) isn't 0 or 1
21:05:55 <pikhq> elliott: I had that problem yesterday. *Today*, it "just worked".
21:05:55 <elliott> iirc it was desynced when i tried to mux the avi into another avi with it
21:06:01 <elliott> also had to manually specify flac while playing it
21:06:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, but since it is undefined it *could* be that of course
21:06:12 <elliott> mkv playback seems to be too slow here
21:06:25 <elliott> every so often i- t doesn't g- o so fa- st
21:06:30 <pikhq> Now to do Big Buck Bunny.
21:06:39 <elliott> pikhq: why not do a movie anyone would actually want to watch
21:06:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: Can you rely on C99 there? You could check if it has that guarantee I mentioned. *Something* had it.
21:07:05 <elliott> pikhq: do Big Buck Bunny in 1080p only
21:07:07 <pikhq> Okay, okay, "Sita Sings the Blues", which is a feature-length animated film that apparently critics loved.
21:07:11 <elliott> pikhq: no point settling for less
21:07:17 <elliott> I only know of it thanks to Karl Fogel.
21:07:33 <elliott> pikhq: Its creator is now a dedicated anti-copyright person :)
21:07:47 <elliott> pikhq: And, uh, totally do it in 1080p+FLAC.
21:07:55 <elliott> No seriously, buy more disk.
21:08:01 <pikhq> elliott: The problem is that I can't *watch* the 1080p.
21:08:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, C99 says that abs(INT_MIN) has undefined *behaviour*. Which is even worse than saying that the return value is undefined. And atm I'm searching for what C99 says about -INT_MIN
21:08:06 <pikhq> As in I can't *play it back*.
21:08:45 <elliott> pikhq: http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-20024741711964_2122_6228207 Anorexia -- discuss
21:08:58 <elliott> (Advertisement for Sita Sings the Blues DVD.)
21:09:11 <elliott> Those eyes are... uh, yeah.
21:09:21 <elliott> (Those proportions are............. what.)
21:09:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:09:39 <elliott> cpressey: I am now extremely tempted to do a comparative study of a few languages by implementing a simple netcat in each.
21:09:44 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, I'll compromise. 720p.
21:09:49 <elliott> cpressey: Connect, listen, and -e.
21:09:50 <pikhq> I can probably watch the 720p version.
21:10:06 <elliott> cpressey: Oh, uh, maybe UDP too. Maybe.
21:10:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, C99 at least says you have to use one of "sign and magnitude", "two's complement" and "ones' complement"
21:11:20 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently Ebert liked Sita a lot.
21:11:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: If it has that signed-arithmetic guarantee, you could just use (x < 0 ? -x : x) instead of abs(x), I think it should be okay for all those three in theory. Except that I think it still is allowed to trap on signed-overflow, too. Can't quite recall.
21:11:35 <pikhq> elliott: Which is at least somewhat promising.
21:11:46 <elliott> "It hardly ever happens this way. I get a DVD in the mail. I'm told it's an animated film directed by "a girl from Urbana." That's my home town. It is titled "Sita Sings the Blues." I know nothing about it, and the plot description on IMDb is not exactly a barn-burner: An animated version of the epic Indian tale of Ramayana set to the 1920's jazz vocals of Annette Hanshaw. Uh, huh. I carefully file it
21:11:46 <elliott> with other movies I will watch when they introduce the 8-day week."
21:11:55 <elliott> pikhq: Only as a blog post though.
21:13:00 -!- wareya has joined.
21:13:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, it says that it is implementation-defined for sign+magnitude and twocomp if "sign bit 1 and all value bits zero" is a trap value
21:13:41 <elliott> pikhq: Well *I'm* going to download the 1080p.
21:13:48 * elliott rms all the elephants stuff
21:14:26 <pikhq> elliott: I just rm'd all but the 480p version of that. I actually somewhat *like* Elephants Dream...
21:14:49 <elliott> pikhq: I haven't watched the whole thing, but -- when I was skipping around my encode -- the voice actors *suck*.
21:14:55 <elliott> Srsly, total mismatch with both their looks.
21:14:58 <pikhq> That's the largest problem with it.
21:15:06 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/wiki/index.php?title=SitaSites Can you tell me which one you grabbed?
21:15:11 <pikhq> Aside from it being just fucking weird. :P
21:15:14 <elliott> "1920x1080p "master" version (200GB 24fps, 35mm film-quality uncompressed Quicktime .mov)"
21:15:17 <elliott> That sounds sort of like it.
21:15:24 <pikhq> elliott: http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/y4m/1080p/sita_sings_the_blues_1080p24.y4m.xz That's the one you want.
21:15:28 <elliott> "1080p / FLAC (original video with FLAC audio in MKV container)"
21:15:48 <elliott> pikhq: Probably not compressed though.
21:15:56 <elliott> pikhq: Also, no I do not want HTTP thank you.
21:16:08 <elliott> cpressey: Good idea wrt netcat?
21:16:32 <pikhq> elliott: A "mere" 31G.
21:16:39 <elliott> pikhq: The .mov is 200 GiB.
21:16:46 <elliott> pikhq: Are you suer it's uncompressed?
21:16:53 <fizzie> Heh, MATLAB on the N900 looks for some reason *really weird*. (X forward over 3G, so also *really slow*, but anyway.)
21:16:53 <pikhq> elliott: It is compressed. With xz.
21:17:06 <elliott> fizzie: Screeny! Can you take them?
21:17:07 <pikhq> Uncompressed, that gets out to 341GB.
21:17:14 <elliott> pikhq: Woot. I totally have that disc space.
21:17:18 <elliott> pikhq: Actually I physically *don't*.
21:17:29 <pikhq> LZMA works astonishingly well with video content. :)
21:17:32 <elliott> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
21:17:32 <elliott> /dev/sda1 220G 12G 198G 6% /
21:17:43 <pikhq> 720p one is 152GB.
21:17:52 <elliott> pikhq: 720p is for underachievers
21:18:01 <elliott> pikhq: Can I have an ssh account on your box pl0x :P
21:18:25 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, okay, I'll download the 1080p one and downscale from there.
21:18:36 <elliott> pikhq: Aww, but I want to run the fun commands of fun funness.
21:18:40 <fizzie> elliott: Gaa, I just closed it.
21:18:41 <elliott> You can't beat fun funness.
21:19:11 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, well, just be kind to my baby.
21:19:37 <elliott> That's the way / uh-huh, uh-huh / I like it / uh-huh, uh-huh. So said a great poet.
21:19:40 <pikhq> I think I'll grab the one from archive.org because that's a much nicer server.
21:20:03 <evincar> Hey guys, eso thing. I was thinking of writing a "BFVM" (Brainfuck Virtual Machine) that could function as a target for higher-level languages, and whose bytecode could be disassembled/decompiled into vanilla BF. What do you think?
21:20:09 <elliott> pikhq: It appears that the FLAC audio is not available separately.
21:20:17 <elliott> evincar: Do it and we'll comment :P
21:20:27 <evincar> elliott: Kay. Do I get a stack?
21:20:28 <pikhq> Erm, no, that's gigantic.
21:20:32 <pikhq> elliott: http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/flac/SSTB/
21:20:48 <elliott> pikhq: the 200 gig one is .mov :P
21:21:03 <elliott> pikhq: 1080p, 5.1 FLAC, mkv.
21:21:09 <pikhq> Yes, but this is 31G. Bit more work to get it sane, but totally doable.
21:21:13 <elliott> pikhq: Sure, neither of us can watch that, but...
21:21:22 <elliott> pikhq: Just do it and we'll gaze in awe.
21:21:23 <pikhq> It'll be a couple days.
21:21:31 <elliott> pikhq: To... download 31 gigs?
21:21:34 <evincar> elliott: Life (read: interfacing with C libraries) would be easier if I had a stack.
21:21:43 <elliott> evincar: Sure, uh, do that then.
21:21:56 <pikhq> elliott: From a single server that appears to have limited upload bandwidth.
21:22:05 <evincar> elliott: Bah, I'll figure something out.
21:22:06 <elliott> pikhq:Wait, cancel your download a sec.
21:22:12 <pikhq> elliott: The archive.org one would be worse.
21:22:22 <elliott> pikhq: Tell me when, I have a point to make :P
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21:22:52 <elliott> pikhq: 0% [ ] 9,723,863 749K/s eta 13h 37m
21:22:57 <elliott> I got >800 KiB/s before, too.
21:23:11 <elliott> pikhq: Or did you mean day in the half-a-day sense? :P
21:23:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We're downloading a feature-length animated film.
21:23:26 <elliott> ...Lossless full 1080p HD.
21:23:31 <pikhq> Okay, that's better.
21:23:37 <elliott> ...Then he's going to download the 5.1 surround sound soundtrack.
21:23:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Then he's going to losslessly compress the video with x264.
21:24:00 <elliott> And mux that, with the FLAC, into a final .mkv.
21:24:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's evincar...
21:24:15 <elliott> pikhq: Now we get to predict the final size.
21:24:27 <elliott> pikhq: You will get a better ratio than with Elephants Dream because, well, 2D animation with simple shading.
21:24:34 <elliott> pikhq: But! 5.1 soundtrack.
21:24:45 <elliott> pikhq: I predict... well, 100 GiB? You think?
21:25:10 <elliott> pikhq: "Yes, I know bad bad people can also use the .fla files for dastardly deeds (the dreaded hypothetical “Nazi Porn Version” that always comes up at Q&A’s). Bad bad people can use our shared Language and Technology for evil too, but I’m not going to constipate culture out of fear of imaginary worst-case scenarios. I’m confident much more good will come from this than bad, and that’s mot
21:25:11 <elliott> ivation enough for me. It’s Free Culture, baby. If programmers can tinker with the Free Software’s source code, artists can tinker with Sita Sings the Blues‘ source files." <-- it's hard to believe these words don't come from a programmer
21:25:24 <elliott> pikhq: She has posted the Flash authoring files.
21:25:31 <elliott> pikhq: What I am saying is: You could render this in Ultra HD.
21:25:55 <elliott> pikhq: You could render it... in vector.
21:26:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "the dreaded hypothetical “Nazi Porn Version” that always comes up at Q&A’s"
21:26:35 <fizzie> elliott: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/n900lab.png -- not much N900-specific there.
21:27:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, that's actually considered an argument?
21:27:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Apparently :P
21:27:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Amongst morons, yes.
21:28:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, eh, the last step of that "reverse engineering" ended up wrong. Should be (n ^ (n >> 0x3f)) - (n >> 0x3f)
21:30:57 <evincar> Whelp, off I get. May be back later, maybe with a hacked-together interesting project.
21:32:01 <elliott> fizzie: Is that small text legible at all?
21:32:05 <elliott> fizzie: Antialiasing might help...
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21:32:45 <elliott> pikhq: So, you're doing 1080p/5.1FLAC/MKV, right? I'll do it with 480p because... my computer sucks.
21:34:10 <fizzie> The text is larger than my terminal font.
21:34:20 <fizzie> Of course it's pretty small still.
21:34:36 <fizzie> But at least you can fit a reasonable amount of stuff in.
21:34:56 <elliott> park_joy_2160p.y4m07-May-2009 13:555.8G
21:35:06 <elliott> fizzie: You must be going blind with a terminal font that tiny.
21:36:10 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: I am now extremely tempted to do a comparative study of a few languages by implementing a simple netcat in each.
21:36:27 <cpressey> elliott: some dude wrote a lame one in 3, don't know if you saw that link
21:36:34 <elliott> cpressey: that's what inspired me
21:36:44 <elliott> it showcases the stdlib quite well
21:36:44 <cpressey> and it was like pyton, ruby, and... i never found out what #3 was
21:36:53 <elliott> it showcases the basic way you express stuff in the language
21:36:57 <elliott> it shows its IO capabilities
21:37:05 <elliott> with -e it shows a taste of what it's like to interact with the rest of the system
21:37:10 <elliott> and in the middle of it all
21:37:13 <elliott> there's a little bit of logic too
21:37:22 <cpressey> yes, it's an IO-lib exerciser (more so than the other parts)
21:37:26 <elliott> on top of that, it's relatively trivial
21:37:38 <elliott> cpressey: right. but a bit more than that too
21:37:46 <elliott> i think it'd be an interesting portrait of languages
21:37:51 <elliott> cpressey: python's will be hideous :)
21:38:02 <cpressey> i've already done netcat -e in python :)
21:38:26 <elliott> cpressey: in the same way that python is not _too_ bad
21:38:46 <fizzie> elliott: Blindness is a small price to pay for a 99x24 terminal. Besides, the screen is 76x46 mm, so the characters are like 0.8 x 1.6 mm huge.
21:38:55 <cpressey> ruby would also be kind of nice, assuming its IO.popen is ok (it _seems_ ok from what i could make out)
21:39:01 <fizzie> That's over a millimetre.
21:39:07 <Vorpal> <fizzie> elliott: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/n900lab.png -- not much N900-specific there. <-- hm, isn't matlab closed source and windows only?
21:39:09 <elliott> cpressey: ruby would excel at this, yeah
21:39:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: Closed but very definitely not Windows.
21:39:39 <cpressey> elliott: i actually am thinking of writing, um, a 'polycat' in Ruby now
21:39:40 <pikhq> elliott: y4m is a raw video format, "YUV4MPEG". It's essentially a headered dump of raw YUV video.
21:39:44 <elliott> cpressey: it has nice argument parsers (even the stdlib one is nice), its socket stuff is an actual abstraction rather than BSD Sockets: The Binding!, and popen is trivial
21:40:06 <pikhq> It's the preferred input format for many encoders.
21:40:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, so they made a version for arm heh?
21:40:20 <cpressey> polycat: run a set of programs and pipe all their outputs together to all their inputs
21:40:36 <elliott> cpressey: i think... that we're sliding, slipperily (say that ten times fast), into the dreaded slope of becoming ruby users.
21:40:53 <elliott> this will also mark the end of us being able to get non-douchebaggy help whenever we have trouble. god save us
21:40:58 <cpressey> elliott: well... you know, the ruby programmers here are all westerners, and for the most part they're OK
21:41:09 <elliott> cpressey: YOU WORK IN AN AGILE COMPANY
21:41:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: "(X forward over 3G, so also *really slow*, but anyway.)
21:42:55 <cpressey> elliott: I'm not sure I follow your logic. Getting help from the "community" of C++ programmers, for example... is this any less douchebaggy?
21:43:45 <cpressey> Maybe the community of academic functional programmers is nicer, overall, I grant.
21:44:20 <fizzie> They currently sell five versions: Win 32/64, Linux x86 32/64 and OS X on x86-64. I think they used to have some others too, earlier.
21:44:22 <cpressey> except for the occasional exploded bloodsucker
21:44:49 <elliott> cpressey: You have never seen #ruby-lang. (NEVER ENTER THIS CHANNEL)
21:45:04 <elliott> The op is a massive douchebag, most people there are idiotic pseudo-hipster Mac-using Starbucks-visiting Rails users.
21:45:12 <elliott> The rest are snobbish elitists who hate questions.
21:45:25 <fizzie> "Mathworks will be dropping support for Matlab on Solaris (SPARC) as
21:45:25 <fizzie> of March 2010. There is currently no Solaris (x86) version, and our
21:45:25 <fizzie> Matworks rep says that "there aren't any near term plans" to support x86
21:45:25 <fizzie> Solaris in the future (although he says he is pushing for this).
21:45:31 <elliott> And there's a lot of "DON'T DO THAT, WHAT DO YOU REALLY WANT TO DO".
21:45:48 <elliott> cpressey: *Anyway* the option parser is really nice:
21:45:49 <cpressey> elliott: ah, so you are referring more to Ruby per se, than to agile in general. k yea
21:46:04 <elliott> cpressey: http://pastie.org/pastes/1241641/text?key=1h4pq5brnaq4kdy0u9j8a
21:46:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: just don't.
21:46:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: seriously.
21:46:33 <cpressey> Agile is largely wanky too, but... also, the company I work for has a less wanky culture than most (one of the reasons I accepted a job here.)
21:46:36 <elliott> cpressey: It can also do keyword completion, where you can provide the shortest ambiguous argument, arguments can take lists, there's even support for octal:
21:46:38 <elliott> opts.on("-F", "--irs [OCTAL]", OptionParser::OctalInteger,
21:46:38 <elliott> "Specify record separator (default \\0)") do |rs|
21:46:43 <elliott> opts.on("-t", "--time [TIME]", Time, "Begin execution at given time") do |time|
21:46:56 <elliott> really, really nice option parser.
21:47:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: to stop you :P
21:47:08 <cpressey> elliott: Yeah, it looks decent (the one in Python isn't _too_ bad, heheh.)
21:47:21 <elliott> cpressey: oops i missed a bit
21:47:39 <elliott> (obviously it returns the new optionparser, which you then tell to parse-destructively-using-ARGV.)
21:47:46 <elliott> (ARGV is then all your non-option arguments.)
21:48:45 <elliott> cpressey: i would totally point you to all of why's stuff ever now but RIP :(
21:50:40 <fizzie> This smoke-machine smoke smells like popcorn. Disquieting.
21:53:17 <elliott> cpressey: well he's not dead. but, as good as, internet-wise.
21:53:17 <cpressey> fizzie: where are you that you are next to a smoke machine AND on irc? this is disquieting.
21:53:20 <elliott> cpressey: just deleted everything last year
21:53:53 <cpressey> elliott: yeah, i heard. was his stuff open source and was any of it saved before it went poof?
21:54:02 <elliott> cpressey: http://viewsourcecode.org/why/
21:54:07 <elliott> this is like 90% of everything why has ever done.
21:54:16 <cpressey> i know he wrote e.g. the yaml libs for ruby
21:54:34 <elliott> It was also, uh, Perl and PHP and just about everything.
21:54:53 <elliott> cpressey: He did *way* more interesting stuff than that though.
21:55:11 <elliott> He was really great at getting people interested in programming... and a lot of code-art stuff too as of recently.
21:55:18 <cpressey> interesting. he's known for the ruby mostly it seems
21:55:27 <elliott> Plus, uh, language designer: http://runciter.net/potion/
21:55:37 <elliott> cpressey: I mean... yes, he was very much in the "ruby community".
21:55:42 <elliott> but... no, he did a lot of non-ruby stuff
21:55:43 <fizzie> cpressey: I just advertised my place: http://altparty.org/2010/ -- hang on, let me a picture.
21:55:45 <elliott> and he was *never* a "rubyist"
21:55:53 <elliott> it was always him using ruby because he likes it, not because it's ruby
21:56:46 <elliott> cpressey: his last blog (hackety.org) actually had not very much ruby stuff on it
21:56:53 <elliott> web.archive.org only has up to 2008 though...
21:57:08 <elliott> cpressey: oh yes, he wrote a hideous half-working ruby -> python bytecode compiler.
21:57:30 <elliott> but really he did an awful lot of cool stuff.
21:58:20 <elliott> cpressey: He posted about Lua once or twice! Also DragonFly was one of his main OSes. :P
21:58:25 <elliott> (The other being Ubuntu and occasionally OS X.)
21:58:37 <fizzie> cpressey: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/i-smoke.jpg -- see, smoke.
21:58:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well... no. He was lamenting how little programming is appreciated once or twice on Twitter before he disappeared.
21:58:45 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, what association do you have with this altparty thing?
21:58:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he's there.
21:59:15 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well, I dabble with demosceneres+ occasionally, but not much more.
21:59:19 <elliott> cpressey: Oh, and he also made an album which was a soundtrack to a book about cartoon foxes^W^WRuby.
21:59:53 <elliott> maybe he actually is jack black
21:59:57 <elliott> rather than just looking like jack black
22:01:20 <elliott> and to close this rambling, i quote him
22:01:21 <elliott> "I appreciate your remarks, but I have a hard time believing that anyone would like my art. I will definitely die without recognition, and few will ever see the work I do. But I like it that way a lot!! One of the worst things a person can get in life is recognition. But a scalp rash is very, very bad as well. I have had some serious scalp rashes, and I also have thrown up blood quite a few times along
22:02:01 <cpressey> i wanted to write a soundtrack to a book once.. and detractors told me it was impossible. bah!
22:02:13 <elliott> cpressey: It's a damn good album too!
22:02:19 <elliott> Well, damn good if you're crazy.
22:02:53 <cpressey> fizzie: for some reason when you first posted that link i thought it was for a political party.
22:03:18 <fizzie> cpressey: Oh, well, in that case I can see why it was a confuse.
22:03:43 <cpressey> elliott: i've made a mental note to check out what remains of his work
22:03:53 <elliott> cpressey: that's all of his work basically. but... you don't get the presentation
22:04:18 <elliott> cpressey: like... reading Alice in Wonderland in Helvetica with a blank book cover and no illustrations
22:04:27 <elliott> or an Infocom adventure game, sans feelies
22:04:42 <elliott> cpressey: http://whymirror.github.com/ has a list of all the code projects and summaries
22:04:58 <cpressey> elliott: started looking at that, found it impossible to navigate.
22:05:02 <fizzie> I don't mind the smoke, but the smell makes me suspect someone's been using the fog-machine as an improvised popcorn device. (No idea how, I don't think it generates that much heat anyway.)
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22:05:37 <elliott> cpressey: It is terribly sad, since he had a lot of actually-developed, ongoing, really used or with real potential projects that were really interesting.
22:06:15 <elliott> maybe one day he'll come back.
22:06:15 -!- nooga has joined.
22:07:08 <elliott> cpressey: Anyway I'm totally going to make Network Cat: A Comparative Study of Several Dynamic Languages.
22:07:23 <elliott> nooga: I actually mean why :P
22:08:38 <fizzie> The Networked Cat: Or, Why Should We Welcome Our New Feline Overlords. (A thesis title suggestion.)
22:10:19 * elliott realises that the part identity of why's wife and the identity of some of his (ex-?)coworkers are known.
22:10:35 <elliott> Thing to do sometime: Contact one of them. Uhh, the latter.
22:11:55 <elliott> I mean, it *is* theoretically possible he killed himself.
22:18:22 <pikhq> elliott: Apparently people have criticised "Sita Sings the Blues" on the basis that it's racist because a white woman did it.
22:18:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://web.archive.org/web/20050319044407/misstrudy.hobix.com/
22:18:45 <elliott> i sure hope the about page is archived
22:18:51 <elliott> "I'm a bassist in a band, The Child Who Was A Keyhole, with my husband, Jonathan."
22:19:18 <elliott> wait wait we DO know his wife's name
22:19:23 <pikhq> elliott: I'm not entirely sure how it's racist for someone to use another culture's legend for a story, but apparently it is.
22:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, wasn't there a guy called Jonathan who was alleged to be Why?
22:19:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes. turns out it is almost *certainly* him
22:20:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it is theoretically possible that why and jonathan collaborated on the same project at work, and why used jonathan's email address a lot, and why hosted a blog for Jonathan's wife, and why designed the cover art to the only album of the band that Jonathan and Jonathan's wife were in...
22:20:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ...but, uh, yeah.
22:21:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh and the band just *happens* to be completely his style.
22:21:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also jonathan just so happens to sound exactly like why
22:22:15 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Nina Paley has said that some left-wing academics have also been critical of the film, describing their position as "any white person doing a project like this is by definition racist, and it's an example of more neocolonialism."]]
22:22:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the far-left academia attracts some real crazy
22:23:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: jonathan looks a bit different to why as we know him in the photos of the band but:
22:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> "Academia" seems generally to be a byword for crazy...
22:23:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, not really...
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22:24:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Definitely not in the sciences.
22:24:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I was excluding the sciences, mathematics, etc.
22:24:40 <elliott> so excluding half or more of academia? :P
22:25:00 <Gregor> (The best half or more)
22:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Paley: On the far left, there are some very, very privileged people in academia who have reduced all the wondrous complexities of racial relations into, "White people are racist, and non-white people are all victims of white racism." Without actually looking at the work, they've decided that any white person doing a project like this is by definition racist, and it's an example of more neocolonialism. So po
22:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> litics makes strange bedfellows -- they're in bed with the Hindutva nationalists. And nobody's seen the work! I get all this criticism, and none of it's a critique of the work.]]
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22:27:53 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: So, in short, people are morons.
22:28:09 <elliott> cpressey: you know what i want to do?
22:28:28 <elliott> Learn Japanese and migrate all my programming community activity other than this place and #haskell to the Japanese communities.
22:28:46 <elliott> pikhq: Here, you act as my Google Translate :P
22:29:38 <cpressey> someone(?) pulled up the site(?) of a Japanese esolanger last night(?)
22:30:01 <elliott> http://why.usesthis.com/ oh oh oh i remembered i love this
22:30:11 <elliott> on hatena diary, where seemingly every japanese programmer ever is :P
22:30:17 <cpressey> first esolanger that i can recall being from japan.
22:30:24 <elliott> "the only other software I use besides windows xp is kjöfol."
22:30:30 <cpressey> i use the term 'esolanger' loosely of course
22:30:31 <elliott> cpressey: There are... a LOT of them.
22:30:47 <elliott> cpressey: Perhaps fewer languages coming out of there but NO THERE ARE TONS.
22:31:02 <elliott> cpressey: And esoteric programming in non-esoteric languages is *even more* common there.
22:31:04 <cpressey> there is possibly less intersection/interaction with the english language esolangers then
22:31:13 <elliott> See http://golf.shinh.org/ :P
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22:31:33 <elliott> cpressey: for the record anagolf's source code is SO NOT ANYTHING TO LOOK AT
22:31:44 <elliott> it's code written directly to the fastcgi binding
22:31:49 <elliott> plus some ... questionably amusing ... ruby
22:31:51 <cpressey> also there is this japanese concept of "useless artistic invention" that maps really closely to esolang
22:32:27 <elliott> cpressey: it's interesting how different, like, japanese *people* are and japan the place + its culture
22:32:43 <pikhq> I can't recall the term, but yeah, there certainly is.
22:32:54 <elliott> the former are just regular usually-strangely-polite people with perhaps more tendencies to the esoteric sorta stuff
22:32:58 <elliott> whereas the latter is... uh, wow.
22:33:00 <elliott> (generalising here of course)
22:33:12 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chind%C5%8Dgu
22:33:26 <pikhq> Ah, right, tinntồkù.
22:33:45 <cpressey> The Rube Goldbergism of the East, I guess.
22:33:50 <elliott> pikhq: double diacritics wat
22:34:18 <pikhq> elliott: It's necessary in my romanisation scheme for some syllables!
22:34:50 <elliott> from just japanese people on the internet i would never guess how metropolisian (is that a word? yes. it is now.) japan itself is
22:34:52 <pikhq> Such as any long vowel + voiced consonant.
22:35:10 <elliott> i wonder what drastically different cultures think about us; what are our discrepancies? :)
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22:38:49 <elliott> cpressey: i have many ideas but none of relevance!
22:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Moving large files from /tmp takes far longer than mv should...
22:41:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Never did I think I'd hear the word "wget" in a cinema.
22:41:53 <elliott> cpressey: hmm, how would you summarise -e prog in --help? :P
22:43:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: have you ever used --help?
22:43:19 <elliott> it should be way more specific than that...
22:43:23 <elliott> "Executes <prog> on the socket", *maybe*
22:43:44 <Phantom_Hoover> [[[phantomhoover@phantomhoover-laptop:~]$ dc --help (10-22 22:43)
22:45:28 <pikhq> QVOD ERAT DEMONSTRANDVM. If you're going to say it, do it right. :)
22:46:05 <cpressey> can prog be a whole fun shell syntax line? then i would call it cmd
22:47:07 <pikhq> Meanwhilst. "Around the World / Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger" is amazing.
22:47:09 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, QVODERATDEMONSTRANDVM, if you're going to be like that.
22:47:52 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Spaces have been around much much longer than lower-case letters or a distinction between V and U.
22:48:28 <elliott> <pikhq> Meanwhilst. "Around the World / Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger" is amazing.
22:48:30 <elliott> most inventive lyrics ever
22:48:42 <elliott> Around the world, around the world! Harder better faster stronger. Around the world, around the world!
22:49:22 <pikhq> elliott: Daft Punk doesn't really do inventive lyrics.
22:49:51 <elliott> pikhq: Case in point: http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/34775/
22:51:20 * elliott listens to "Around The World / Harder Better Faster Stronger"
22:52:02 <elliott> pikhq: I would just like to say http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/daftpunk/aroundtheworld.html
22:52:19 <pikhq> Oh, darn it, I'm not quite right. "QVOD·ERAT·DEMONSTRANDVM" would be the actual old orthography.
22:52:36 <pikhq> elliott: Well aware.
22:52:56 <pikhq> I have their discography you know!
22:53:10 <cpressey> pikhq: I prefer "Crescendolls"
22:53:11 <elliott> pikhq: Work it / make it / do it / makes us / ... / ... / ... / .... / harder / better / faster / stronger
22:53:15 <elliott> Oh the suspense in those "..."s
22:53:41 <cpressey> pikhq: I used to have that album :)
22:53:53 <pikhq> cpressey: Alive 2007?
22:54:09 <cpressey> pikhq: I dunno man, it just said "Daft Punk" on the cover.
22:54:18 <elliott> cpressey: all of their albums do that
22:54:25 <pikhq> That's not helpful. :)
22:54:35 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/Daftpunk-homework.jpg
22:54:38 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/Daft_Punk_-_Discovery.jpg
22:54:40 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0d/Humanafterall.jpg
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22:56:19 <cpressey> On a completely different note, default Maverick install on this machine, using Totem Movie Player, produces some crappy audio artefacts I don't remember hearing before.
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22:57:15 <elliott> cpressey: oh i totally forgot ruby has proper && and || and !
22:57:37 -!- nooga has joined.
22:58:49 <elliott> cpressey: as in you can use those
22:58:58 <cpressey> proper in that they look like C? :)
22:59:00 <elliott> (there's actually a slight precedence difference that can be useful sometimes... but that's irrelevant)
22:59:08 <elliott> !x is sometimes a lot nicer than x
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23:01:59 <elliott> "Once the ad ends you'll be returned to your LiveJournal experience"
23:03:06 <Sgeo> I once decided to use LiveJournal as my private journal
23:03:23 <Sgeo> Had a paper journal and would copy stuff from there to LJ
23:03:27 <Sgeo> Then I stopped doing that
23:03:46 <Sgeo> Then, sometime after I stopped writing in the paper journal, I misplaced it
23:05:39 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:11:55 <quintopia> human after all was surprisingly good
23:12:13 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:14:54 <fizzie> quintopia: Sounds cannibalistic. You just ate?
23:15:25 <Gregor> More like cannibadelicious!
23:16:30 <fizzie> Putting the BALLS back to canniBALism.
23:17:21 <fizzie> (Was going to go with NIB first.)
23:18:39 <Gregor> Yes, he's fizzie: Putting the homoeroticism back into cannibalism!
23:21:52 <fizzie> Putting the ack back to back.
23:24:16 <Gregor> It only tortures you because it loves you.
23:26:27 <fizzie> "Phantom_Hoover 0, Freespace 2" is how I read that. But that might be accurate too. Or maybe Freespace's score should be higher.
23:27:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Try putting the extra-sensory perception back into FreESPace 2.
23:28:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I would be able to deal with crashes if they actually made any sense!
23:29:20 <fizzie> Putting the rash back into crashes. Somebody stop me!
23:29:57 <fizzie> I can't stop looking at substrings. (Ring.)
23:30:05 <cpressey> Putting the topping back in stopping fizzie.
23:30:24 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: keep smiling).
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23:31:48 <fizzie> I was going to go with "press into cpressey", but that sounded just dirty.
23:33:08 <fizzie> It might be time for me to try to catch the 01:49am bus, it's the last sensible homeward-bound one that doesn't involve circuitousity or switching.
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23:43:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look, the currently active mod has 499 errors from simply starting up. BUT I'M NOT GOING TO TELL YOU WHAT THEY ARE HAHAHAHA
23:43:34 * Sgeo goes to download ooVoo
23:43:38 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:44:34 <Sgeo> Opera fails to mark files as originating from the Internet
23:45:30 <Sgeo> And because I haven't bothered to get Ubuntu on here yet
23:45:52 <Gregor> Sgeo: So does WebSplat work on Opera or not? :P
23:46:01 <Sgeo> And also I want to be 100% sure, not just 99% sure because it's the only reasonable possibility, that the HD protection thingy doesn
23:46:09 <Sgeo> 't rely on software to work
23:46:16 <Phantom_Hoover> You don't have to use Windows all of the time any more.
23:46:19 <Sgeo> Gregor, using the down key causes some dizziness
23:46:46 <Sgeo> The page scrolls down, and then snaps back up to the character
23:46:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume the "HD protection thingy" is an accelerometer linked to something to stop the disc as soon as possible.
23:47:38 <Sgeo> Something like that. But apparently it's controllable by software. It's reasonable to assume that the software just receives status and can toggle the state, but I want to be 100% sure
23:49:21 <Phantom_Hoover> As far as I can tell, when FS2 gets 499 errors, its strategy is just to say "hey, tonnes of errors have occurred!", then throw them all into the bit bucket without leaving any semblance of a log.
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23:50:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's almost certainly an accelerometer hooked directly to the drive controller that *happens* to be exposed to software.
23:51:15 <pikhq> If it were actually software controlled, it is *entirely* possible for a stupid scheduler mishap to make the spindown not happen in time.
23:51:42 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:51:54 <zzo38> LET'S WE ARE INSANITY!!!!
23:52:27 -!- cal153 has quit.
23:53:00 <elliott> Once upon a time, DON'T DROP YOUR FUCKING LAPTOP.
23:53:14 -!- cal153 has joined.
23:53:39 <Gregor> You can drop your regular laptop.
23:53:48 <Gregor> But if you drop your fucking one, it'll hurt a LOT.
23:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Sgeo has a rare genetic disorder that causes his fingers to constantly exude butter.
23:54:12 <Sgeo> Hey ooVoo, thanks so much for sending me my password in an email
23:54:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It's fantastically useful when making toast, but a curse at all other times
23:54:55 <elliott> Hey Sgeo, we really don't care that you've found yet another shitty piece of Windows/OS X-only software.
23:55:48 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I would think it's only helpful for a very small part of the toast-making process.
23:55:53 <zzo38> elliott: I corrected the problem you were having with the Enhanced CWEB. The version number is still 0.3 because it is only a minor fix (commenting out a line in "platform.h" and adding a short file "how_to_compile.txt")
23:55:55 <Gregor> Otherwise you're just risking getting butter in your toast.
23:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover> [[[phantomhoover@phantomhoover-laptop:~]$ locate vp_crcs.txt (10-22 23:52)]] (there's no output)
23:56:30 <zzo38> If you have a rare genetic disorder like that then wear gloves
23:56:51 <elliott> zzo38: I have Sgeo's disorder and *also* a rare genetic disorder that causes gloves to disintegrate when they touch my hands.
23:56:54 <fizzie> The usual locate is very uninstantaneous, you know.
23:57:01 <elliott> <zzo38> elliott: I corrected the problem you were having with the Enhanced CWEB. The version number is still 0.3 because it is only a minor fix (commenting out a line in "platform.h" and adding a short file "how_to_compile.txt")
23:57:04 <elliott> which problem was that again?
23:57:58 <zzo38> elliott: What do *you* think?
23:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, regrettably, most healthcare plans do not cover digitus butyrus.
23:58:23 <elliott> zzo38: I... can I have a real answer please?
23:58:52 <zzo38> elliott: OK. It is the problem that it could not compile PicoC
00:00:01 <zzo38> That is OK, because it is corrected now.
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00:12:28 <nooga> http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2010/Oct/344
00:14:15 <Gregor> This is a low impact issue that is only of interest to security professionals and system administrators, end users do not need to be concerned.
00:14:16 <Gregor> It is possible to exploit this confusion to execute arbitrary code as root.
00:14:21 <Gregor> Uhhhh, that makes a lot of sense.
00:15:16 <pikhq> ... You're mother-fucking kidding me, right?
00:15:53 <pikhq> They actually made LD_AUDIT load arbitrary libraries?
00:16:17 <Gregor> That's how we rooooollllll
00:16:29 <pikhq> That is absolutely positively moronic.
00:16:52 <elliott> DEVELOPED BY ULRICH DREPPER SO YOU CAN TRUST IT A+++++ LIBC
00:16:57 <elliott> DYNAMIC LINKING TO LOAD LIBC FEATURES
00:17:04 <elliott> ULRICH DREPPER FIVE FUCKING STARS LIBC
00:17:16 <elliott> 1,000,000 GIGABYTES OF PURE AWESOME
00:17:19 <Gregor> I LOVE that the exploit shown on that page is pretty much all the exploit anyone would ever need to do anything.
00:17:22 <elliott> GLIBC: IT'S WHAT UNIX-BASED SYSTEMS CRAVE
00:17:32 <Gregor> Just set that to /etc/passwd and you can have a user-writable password database :P
00:18:02 <elliott> GLIBC: ALL THE SIMPLICITY OF DYNAMIC LINKING WITH ALL THE SIZE OF STATIC LINKING
00:18:43 <elliott> "Major distributions should be releasing updated glibc packages shortly."
00:19:40 <elliott> now try that with statically-linked newlib :)
00:19:59 <elliott> but wait, i thought using an advanced dynamically-linked libc totally enhanced security?!?!
00:20:46 <elliott> pikhq: "Advisory live, http://goo.gl/UQmE. It's low impact, but is an interesting little vulnerability."
00:20:49 <elliott> pikhq: he's gotta be sarcastic
00:21:03 <elliott> I'm preparing an advisory for publication this afternoon. It's low impact, but a nice elegant vulnerability. I'm really proud of it.
00:21:04 <elliott> My technique for discouraging journos from harassing me will be making it so TL;DR that only geeks will be able to read it. Fingers crossed.
00:21:05 <elliott> Advisory live, http://goo.gl/UQmE. It's low impact, but is an interesting little vulnerability.
00:21:29 <elliott> "@taviso has an interesting definition of "low impact"."
00:21:33 <elliott> he replise "@leifnixon Sorry, you're free to use your own scale for your advisories. I just provide enough detail for you to assess the impact yourself."
00:21:52 <pikhq> At least it's not a *remote* hole.
00:22:02 <Gregor> "All users have root privileges" = no big deal.
00:22:19 <pikhq> Gregor: Compared with "All people have root privileges". :P
00:22:21 <elliott> pikhq: oh man i hope a wonderful remote hole appears very soon
00:22:25 <elliott> that just allows unprivileged access
00:22:38 <Gregor> "SSH neglects to check root password"
00:22:49 <elliott> "SSH actively searches for connections, gives them all root access"
00:23:00 <elliott> "Fills in 'rm -rf /' automatically"
00:23:07 <elliott> "Presses enter after 3 ms of inactivity"
00:23:23 <Gregor> "OpenBSD team found dead, suicide suspected."
00:23:48 <elliott> "Rocks fall, everybody dies"
00:23:59 <Sgeo> "No impact to anyone alive"
00:24:09 <pikhq> "OpenSSH sets the login banner to /etc/shadow followed by a link to a rainbow table based on the system salt."
00:24:12 <elliott> "[enhancement; priority: low] Program causes unFriendly AI to take over the universe and replace it with subatomic paperclips"
00:24:40 <elliott> "OpenSSH unleashes Cthulhu every five seconds"
00:25:09 <Gregor> "OpenSSH killed my grandmother"
00:25:53 <elliott> 253 if (__builtin_expect (*name == '$', 0))
00:26:02 <elliott> As far as I can tell, it never checks that *name actually == '$'.
00:26:23 <Sgeo> Just that it's expected to be $?
00:26:31 <Gregor> Uhh, yeah, I think __builtin_expect just informs GCC to expect that that's true.
00:26:32 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, that *does* check that *name equals '$'.
00:26:35 <Gregor> It doesn't actually evaluate it.
00:26:43 <pikhq> __builtin_expect(x, y) is x.
00:26:51 <pikhq> It just informs GCC that y is the most likely value.
00:26:56 <elliott> pikhq: I like how the NAME SUCKS.
00:27:06 <pikhq> It does suck massively.
00:27:10 <elliott> I would expect __builtin_expect(x, y) to be true iff x is expected to equal y.
00:27:25 <Gregor> __builtin_kill_elliott_with_fire
00:27:43 <elliott> I'm glad to know you care.
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00:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> (FWIW, that exploit seems to have been patched for me, or I did something wrong)
00:30:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It allows GCC to generate better code -- the code for the expected side of the branch will be placed such that the branch predictor will predict that's what's going to be followed.
00:31:27 <Phantom_Hoover> There is something deeply unsettling about this, but I'm not sure what
00:33:03 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: A Windows Vista-using, PowerShell-abusing beast. Oh yes!
00:33:59 -!- storkbot has joined.
00:34:36 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: nick tends to match account name. is all
00:34:57 <catseye> last time before this year i was active on freenode, 'catseye' was totally taken.
00:35:11 <catseye> seems to have been something of an exodus since then.
00:35:22 <Phantom_Hoover> catseye, do you have some deep connection with cats' eyes?
00:36:08 * pikhq "loves" how a compile job seems to make the disk scheduler act retarded.
00:36:16 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: It's so deep, I have to wear all black, smoke slim cigarettes and have largish, purple-tinted glasses. Yes.
00:36:38 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: ok, you missed that bit. (I have an iMac at work now, so I'm one of Them.)
00:37:22 <catseye> will google it when finished noms
00:38:29 <Sgeo> .....it's sad that that's the first thing I remembered
00:39:10 * Sgeo feels like leaving elliott in the dark
00:40:06 <elliott> until (buffer = p1.read_nonblock(4096)).empty?
00:40:09 <Sgeo> Aziraphale, an angel, as he stepped into some.. circle thingy that pretty much .. debodied him
00:40:20 <elliott> Sgeo: ...why is that "oh fuck"
00:40:23 <elliott> catseye: i am totally starting this multi-language netcat thing
00:40:27 <elliott> catseye: (see forward function)
00:40:33 <elliott> i think you could rewrite that as
00:40:45 <elliott> p2.write buffer until (buffer = p1.read_nonblock(4096)).empty?
00:40:47 <Sgeo> elliott, he had some rather important things to do
00:40:50 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: is the thing about the angel upsetting you, too?
00:40:54 <Phantom_Hoover> MAY REACH CIVILISATION TOMORROW STOP NOT SURE WHEN STOP
00:40:55 <elliott> Sgeo: IT'S A FUCKING NOVEL
00:41:02 <catseye> elliott: i can see, you are
00:41:10 <elliott> catseye: I can see you're.
00:41:21 * Sgeo decides to keep leaving elliott in the dark
00:41:21 <elliott> Sgeo has gone batshit fucking insane at last.
00:41:24 <Sgeo> This is hilarious
00:41:40 <elliott> Sgeo: are you on drugs or just a fucking moron?
00:42:16 <Sgeo> Or you misread something I said
00:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, start talking or I'm going to fly to New York, hunt you down, and beat you about the head with a bar of soap until you talk.
00:42:40 <elliott> you used * highly ambiguously
00:42:47 <elliott> and still shed no light at all on why the hell you'd say that
00:42:52 <elliott> and have now gone psychotic because of it
00:42:58 <Sgeo> No, you don't see
00:43:12 <elliott> Aziraphale, after stepping onto some debodying thing, said "Oh, fuck".
00:43:26 <elliott> <Sgeo> Aziraphale, an angel, as he stepped into some.. circle thingy that pretty much .. debodied him
00:43:29 <elliott> "*after" being almost useless here.
00:44:30 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: adieu, brave ecto-thing!
00:45:28 <Mathnerd314> stupid client; why did it highlight that line?
00:46:34 <catseye> stupid idea, before i forget
00:47:22 <catseye> "if x" -> "bool(x)", "x then y" -> "x && y", "x else y" -> "(!x) && y", with appropriate precedence
00:47:26 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I still don't know why it highlighted it
00:47:54 <elliott> Mathnerd314: because you are being subjected to a neon meate dream of a octafish
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00:48:07 <elliott> catseye: breaks down when y in "x then y" is false
00:48:15 <catseye> bonus: you can yuse "then" like you would ";" sort of and it sort of reads out loud ok
00:48:32 <elliott> also, don't you mean "x else y" => "x || y"?
00:48:45 <elliott> otherwise y is always executed
00:49:42 <elliott> catseye: yes you definitely do
00:49:59 <elliott> (if x then y else z) then ...
00:50:07 <elliott> only if !x is ... executed
00:50:38 <catseye> the result was not as important to me as the simulation of the control structure
00:51:00 <elliott> great, i have a ruby question :P
00:51:07 <catseye> i.e.if..then..else was not an expr, in my mind
00:51:39 <elliott> RCSID = %w$Id: optparse.rb 27089 2010-03-29 09:10:12Z nobu $[1..-1].each {|s| s.freeze}.freeze
00:51:41 <catseye> elliott: What is your Ruby q?
00:51:45 * elliott tries to figure out how that works
00:52:03 <elliott> catseye: "when using OptionParser, can i do opts.something to show the help screen?"
00:52:09 <elliott> i don't even want to do that
00:52:36 <catseye> going to totally write some ruby tonight man
00:52:40 <Sgeo> elliott is using Ruby?
00:52:43 <Sgeo> What is the world coming to?
00:52:59 <catseye> Sgeo: no, he is using Java
00:53:04 <quintopia> catseye: what have you been smoking btw?
00:53:04 <elliott> Sgeo: i used ruby for years...
00:53:12 <Sgeo> I thought you disliked Ruby
00:53:25 <catseye> quintopia: slim cigarettes -- obv you missed that pt
00:53:26 <elliott> i might dislike python even more.
00:53:52 <Sgeo> I wonder if I should force myself to try Ruby again
00:54:20 <Sgeo> I think what I disliked most about it was the "There's more than one way to do it" philosophy it inherited from Perl
00:54:35 <catseye> Mostly i am smoking French names, yes.
00:54:54 <elliott> you do not need more languages.
00:55:08 <catseye> Someone stop Sgeo before he falls in love again!
00:55:25 <Sgeo> Easy way to stop me falling in love: Force me to work with it
00:55:37 <elliott> catseye: man writing this netcat in ruby is far harder than in python because i'm not used to it but i'm not wanting to stab the code i write
00:55:43 <Sgeo> Languages I must work with I hate, and languages I don't have to work with I end up having love affairs with
00:55:46 <elliott> Sgeo: but you never work with anything
00:55:58 <Sgeo> Second Life forces LSL
00:56:11 <Sgeo> Creatures forces CAOS (not that I ever programmed much in CAOS)
00:56:16 <elliott> catseye: i think this is the thing -- ruby is a not-so-ideal language but you can be happy with what you write in it
00:56:23 <elliott> you just have to give up your sanity
00:56:37 <Sgeo> The Project forced C#
00:56:46 <Sgeo> Although C# is nice, I'm not madly in love
00:57:02 <catseye> elliott: Yes -- same for any scripting language, really, but some of them make you give up different aspects of your sanity than others.
00:58:16 <catseye> I am now under the impression that if you keep a somewhat Chindogu-esque outlook, Ruby will not eat your entire brain, and you can get by.
00:58:24 <elliott> catseye: i just can't hate it, you know?
00:58:38 <elliott> he made a programming language! it has libraries and things.
00:58:41 <elliott> you can write prorgams with it!
00:58:54 <catseye> Also, for any language, I figure, half the trick is knowing what half the language to never use.
00:58:55 <elliott> it has smalltalk and lisp in it!
00:59:29 <Sgeo> If I said SMALLTALK, would you chastise me?
00:59:49 <elliott> netcat.rb:37:in `<main>': invalid option: --sdf (OptionParser::InvalidOption)
01:00:47 <elliott> catseye: Ruby odd-but-really-useful: list[n] is nil when list.length <= n
01:00:57 <elliott> surprisingly, i never had any bugs due to this.
01:01:18 <catseye> elliott: feels a bit like how the default value of all keys in a Lua table is nil.
01:01:37 <elliott> netcat.rb:7:in `read_nonblock': Resource temporarily unavailable - read would block (Errno::EAGAIN)
01:01:44 <catseye> that it's an exception in Python took some getting used to.
01:02:00 <catseye> elliott: *that* seems like unix rather than ruby, right there
01:02:14 <elliott> catseye: python is basically BDSM: The Language
01:02:40 <catseye> "I can't do a nonblocking read because it would block" -- ohhh kayyyyy...
01:04:07 <elliott> catseye: it's... yeah, unix.
01:04:31 <Sgeo> Wait, unix makes what should be a nonblocking call block?
01:05:59 <catseye> ok *cracks knuckles* plan for tonight: write catbus
01:06:22 <catseye> although, perhaps i should be scared off by nonblocking reads
01:07:00 <elliott> catseye: anyway i can get the frontpage from google now
01:07:11 <Sgeo> Why would it be impossible to read certain resources without blocking? Unless that read_noblock doesn't use a callback...
01:07:41 <Sgeo> There would be no available UNIX thingy to read it without blocking?
01:09:06 <catseye> Sgeo: hint: EAGAIN is not "really" an error
01:09:21 <catseye> Much like Snow White is not a dwarf.
01:09:37 <catseye> Well, maybe not *that* much like that.
01:10:04 <Sgeo> Ok, so what was the problem that whoever was having?
01:10:11 <Sgeo> It's just a failure to use the method properly
01:10:29 <elliott> IO.select(select_on, select_on, select_on)
01:11:00 <Sgeo> Shoud there be a block somewhere there?
01:11:24 <catseye> um, nothing jumps out at me except that I should think there is a prev call to IO.select you're not showing, or you should be using awhile loop instead
01:11:36 <Sgeo> Wait, until is syntactic magic?
01:11:46 <Sgeo> Bring me back to Smalltalk please
01:11:50 <catseye> I assume until .. end is syntax
01:11:56 <elliott> catseye: er right it should be the other way around
01:12:20 <catseye> yep, broken symmetry i suppose
01:12:38 * catseye denies the existence of the end of any file
01:12:39 <Sgeo> Fuck large syntaxes. Give me one dose of Smalltalk, please.
01:13:06 <elliott> this idea that syntax somehow super over complexifies a language is bullshit
01:13:08 <Sgeo> But they're also not beautiful
01:13:10 <elliott> smalltalk doesn't even have macros, it gains nothing!
01:13:18 <elliott> over-minimalism is not beauty
01:13:46 <elliott> catseye: it is totally ugly now but i can handle that alter
01:14:06 <catseye> All I can say is my subjective opinion: Scheme si, Smalltalk nein, Python or Lua sigh sure why not, Ruby or Perl well... urrggh ok
01:14:06 <elliott> Sgeo: sorry, but it's really irritating seeing this all the time.
01:14:20 <elliott> catseye: YOU WILL LEARN TO LIKE RUBY MORE THAN PYTHON i swear i feel liberated
01:14:30 <elliott> like i can experience a whole new world of shittiness without obeying guido every other keypress
01:14:41 <catseye> Haskell somewhere in between Python and Ruby
01:14:49 <catseye> elliott: I loved Perl once, so it is possible
01:14:54 <Sgeo> Why nein on Smalltalk?
01:15:14 <catseye> Sgeo: I can't say why but the method invokation thing drives me bonkers.
01:15:16 <elliott> catseye: wait actually maybe i should quit on input EOF
01:15:20 <elliott> only source for this: my netcat does :P
01:17:10 <catseye> I actually prefer the Pascal-level of syntax complexity (C is close to that too)
01:17:59 <elliott> catseye: also i am *so close* to making my own language aargh
01:18:12 <elliott> like lua, right, but with some shorter keywords, actual arrays, actual integers
01:18:15 <elliott> and a few rubyish niceties
01:19:21 <catseye> or rather, taking my "going to make my own language" thing out of the last place it ended up and trying again
01:19:21 <elliott> catseye: we should totally CO LABBOR ATE
01:19:47 <catseye> elliott: we possibly totally should.
01:19:59 <elliott> catseye: ok clearly it needs a name.
01:20:09 <catseye> (valley girl speak BORROWING into catseye idiolect english)
01:20:11 <elliott> catseye: continuing on with the merd theme, may i suggest "rape"?
01:20:24 <elliott> "What did you write your awesome new webframework in?"
01:20:34 <elliott> "Hey, what's the slogan of your favourite language again?"
01:20:45 <elliott> "I'm Going To Rape You (And Your Codebase)!(TM)"
01:20:48 <elliott> "Jesus fucking christ man."
01:21:17 <catseye> let's revisit this idea later
01:21:33 <quintopia> let's call it "rape jokes aren't funny >:("
01:22:21 <elliott> quintopia: They're as funny as racist jokes.
01:22:25 <elliott> And racist jokes (can be) hilarious.
01:22:48 <elliott> Also jew jokes, dead baby jokes, etc. etc.
01:23:23 <quintopia> because people actually do get raped and it's horrible
01:23:35 <elliott> quintopia: People died in the holocaust too.
01:23:43 <quintopia> they're dead so how can they complain?
01:23:45 <elliott> And awful shit happens to everyone and that has nothing to do with joking about it or not.
01:23:57 <elliott> and i have the distinct feeling you're trolling me
01:24:06 <quintopia> elliott: holocaust jokes are also not funny when they speak of people being murdered
01:24:25 <elliott> quintopia: http://harmful.cat-v.org/pc.jpg
01:24:58 <quintopia> what does that have to do with anything?
01:25:06 <quintopia> i'm not saying anything about being PC
01:25:28 <elliott> Your standards for jokes are ridiculous and I refuse to abide by them, as does every sane person.
01:25:42 <elliott> Feel free to /ignore *rape|murder|hurt|pain|unhappiness|:(*
01:25:47 <catseye> quintopia: is there anything in bad taste that you do find funny? fart jokes, perhaps?
01:25:55 <quintopia> pain hurt and unhappiness are all HILARIOUS
01:26:08 <elliott> I think I will subject quintopia to a billion years of intense, agonising pain.
01:26:42 <quintopia> rape is really really hard to laugh at
01:27:48 <elliott> can we perhaps make a distinction between things you find easy to laugh at and things that people are bad for saying?
01:29:25 <elliott> quintopia: ok. it is made.
01:29:29 <quintopia> but know that rape jokes are uncommonly unfunny
01:29:38 <elliott> but not because they are about rape.
01:29:49 <elliott> quintopia: we get it! rape sucks.
01:29:58 <elliott> i guess you hate most comedians, huh.
01:30:21 <elliott> ok admittedly 99% of comedians suck but that's not the point
01:30:56 <quintopia> how does that even make sense? "not because they are about rape"? you're suggesting that "maybe this class of jokes is not funny, but it's not because it is this class of jokes"
01:31:09 <Sgeo> My friend's sister was murdered last year
01:31:45 <catseye> something can be both in offensively bad taste, *and* funny. the two are not the same thing.
01:31:47 <elliott> Sgeo: did you just say that to make us feel bad, or... what?
01:32:20 <quintopia> catseye: he said "but not because they are about rape" not "but not because they are in offensively bad taste"
01:32:42 <catseye> quintopia: well, presumably, they are in offensively bad taste because they are about rape
01:32:51 <elliott> quintopia sounds like a barrel of laughs.
01:32:53 <catseye> that seems a trivial inference
01:33:06 <elliott> dead baby jokes -- ok because they're dead
01:33:09 <Sgeo> Just that even though no murdered person would find a murder joke offensive, there are people who would naturally get upset at those kinds of jokes
01:33:13 <elliott> quintopia: surely murder jokes are ok because the victims are dead?
01:33:16 <quintopia> no, it may be something about rape other than its bad taste that makes rape jokes unfunny
01:33:19 <elliott> Sgeo: they are free not to read them.
01:41:06 <catseye> i... am tempted to go into evolutionary psychology and a theory of humour, but i'm too lazy to type it all out, and besides, it's such a buzzkill.
01:43:06 <catseye> elliott: is "irb" a legit filename extension for ruby scripts? that seems weird, shouldn't it be just "rb"?
01:43:19 <elliott> catseye: yes. what file in particular?
01:43:27 <catseye> elliott: that guy with the 3 netcats
01:43:33 <elliott> catseye: he's probably a moron
01:43:37 <catseye> though his style was... inconsistent at best
01:43:37 <elliott> it's the best thing since sliced rape
01:44:45 <catseye> i await it with baited tsunami coastal disaster
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01:47:25 <catseye> *bated, i guess, to be correct
01:48:03 <elliott> it's totally 88 lines right now but that will change
01:49:26 <catseye> 3-nc-guy also follows the "This is my program; here the class for my program" pattern, which is... not the hallmark of excellent engineering
01:49:40 <pikhq> Sgeo: I dunno about you, but I love dark humor. Joking about a horrible thing does not in any way suggest that it's *good*, just that it is, in fact, a part of human existence.
01:50:01 <catseye> Is your program designed to be extended? No? Then it is a class because... you don't know what you're doing. Alright...
01:50:14 <Sgeo> pikhq, I think... I'd feel terrible making a joke myself
01:50:14 <elliott> pikhq: what's better than gassing three baby jews?
01:50:17 <elliott> raping them once they're dead
01:50:30 <Sgeo> elliott, there was no joke
01:50:44 <olsner> if he's laughing it's a joke
01:51:08 <elliott> I like the idea that you can do anything "non-consensually" to a dead baby.
01:51:34 <pikhq> Sgeo: The *only* thing that, in my mind, could be considered wrong about such a joke is making it to someone who you're aware would be horribly upset by it.
01:51:40 <olsner> if you don't feel right about laughing about raping dead baby jews, laugh about elliot laughing about it
01:51:48 <pikhq> This falls under the common ethical rule, "don't be a dick."
01:52:00 <elliott> "Sorry, ELLIOTT ELLIOTT ELLIOTT."
01:52:04 <olsner> is 'about' the right preposition though?
01:52:31 <Sgeo> It's not a matter of not feeling right about laughing
01:52:39 <Sgeo> It's the utter lack of anything resembling humor
01:52:54 <olsner> there is humor to be found in the utter lack of humor
01:53:05 <pikhq> I get the feeling Sgeo wouldn't like Cyanide & Happiness.
01:53:11 <elliott> pikhq: quintopia even more
01:53:15 <pikhq> It's a dead baby comic!
01:53:16 <Sgeo> pikhq, actually, I do sometimes
01:53:45 <elliott> "BUT I FEEL BAD ABOUT IT AFTERWARDS"
01:53:56 <elliott> like catholics, masturbating
01:54:11 <Sgeo> No, not really
01:54:12 <pikhq> elliott: Every sperm is sacred, after all.
01:54:14 <olsner> bah! about 8h ago I had some idea about not getting drunk so that I could be productive and/or creative tomorrow (today)
01:54:29 <catseye> maybe we should go back to evo psych 101: what smiles mean to mammals, and to homo sapiens in specific
01:54:39 <quintopia> elliott: you don't get it. C&H amuses me sometimes.
01:54:59 <quintopia> dead babies amused me when i first heard them
01:55:06 <elliott> my program is high-lariously broken
01:55:09 <catseye> olsner: i have that idea sometimes. put it out of your mind immediately!
01:55:12 <quintopia> (actually, i'm still kind of fond of the "stapled to the chicken" one)
01:55:22 <catseye> elliott: still staring uselessly at my own, thanks
01:55:33 <elliott> catseye: let us call upon matz
01:55:49 <elliott> This is violating my Principle of Least Surprise.
01:55:53 <pikhq> quintopia: In fact, the more awful something is, the more it *deserves* to be mocked — let some good come from the most horrible of things.
01:55:57 <catseye> elliott: no, i would feel bad about bothering him!
01:55:59 <elliott> then check for a new ruby release
01:56:11 <elliott> catseye: he lives only to be nice.
01:56:13 <pikhq> So, I'd say Holocaust jokes are fundamentally necessary.
01:56:21 <catseye> canada and japan are both "polite" cultures like that
01:56:49 <pikhq> catseye: Quite unlike the US. It is culturally valid for me to do this:
01:56:52 <pikhq> elliott: Because FUCK YOU.
01:57:28 <catseye> and there is a subtle but very important difference between mock and deride, btw
01:57:46 <pikhq> catseye: Pray tell?
01:57:51 <elliott> http://editgif.com/406/2 i could stare at this all day, looping
01:58:45 <olsner> catseye: I did, now I'm wasted and tomorrow will be a son-of-a-bitch
01:59:16 <catseye> pikhq: perhaps those were not the best choice of words either. i only mean that there are several functions wrapped inside "humor"...
01:59:32 <catseye> or maybe "laughing" would be a better base of BORING analysis of this
02:00:03 <catseye> i tend to prefer surreal, absurd humour
02:00:03 <pikhq> Best form of formal analysis.
02:00:05 <Sgeo> Why does Opera force me to click the flash before interacting?
02:00:13 <pikhq> Screw complex analysis, boring analysis is where it's at.
02:00:15 <Sgeo> Actually, come to think of it, that makes good sense for some situations
02:00:16 <olsner> (the second-to-last guy at work (I was the last one) made me figure out where the rest of the people went for drinks, and we joined them, and there were pitchers of marguarita)
02:00:36 <elliott> it's bad if putting a printf-debug after an IO.select call spews out quickly, right?
02:01:01 <olsner> iirc, showing plugin contents without previous interaction is patented or something silly like that
02:01:19 <catseye> boring analysis tends to get holes in it over time
02:01:36 <olsner> what makes much more sense is to have on-demand plugins that don't even get loaded from the network until you click something
02:02:31 <Sgeo> olsner, FlashBlock basically
02:02:47 <Sgeo> I think Opera's getting that sort of functionality native in 11
02:03:00 <olsner> yeah, you can probably make that as an extension in Opera 11
02:03:07 <olsner> or do it in all opera versions with userjs
02:03:53 <Sgeo> Wouldn't userjs just make it invisible?
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02:04:21 <pikhq> Pretty sure you can remove it from the DOM.
02:04:38 <olsner> depends on the loading order and stuff, you probably can't be sure it gets removed before loading starts
02:05:01 <Sgeo> Removing it from the DOM != preventing whatever's in there from starting to load
02:06:00 <olsner> the instant the flash plugin starts, you're doomed - address space corrupted, event loops infiltrated, the keylogger has set up the keygrab on the X server and so on
02:07:41 <catseye> elliott: that sounds kind of bad but dunno
02:08:25 <Sgeo> I guess I'm used to Flash causing pain
02:08:33 <elliott> catseye: wow that netcat-in-ruby is *awfully* written
02:08:42 <elliott> ;s everywhere, four-space indentation, "while( ... )" instead of just "while ..."
02:08:56 <Sgeo> What's wrong with four-space indentation?
02:09:21 <elliott> like two-space indentation in Python
02:09:40 <catseye> elliott: how many spaces usually, in ruby?
02:09:41 <olsner> why would you ever indent with *4* of anything? indent 0 or 1
02:10:02 <elliott> olsner: i sympathise absolutely, i really do
02:10:08 <elliott> olsner: my platonic perfect language will use tabs.
02:10:09 <catseye> I use 4-space almost universally in Python and C (now), 2-space in Perl
02:10:22 <catseye> much of my older C is BSD style though (tabs! gadzooks!)
02:10:27 <olsner> elliott: it should use abstract units of indentation
02:10:48 <elliott> ever see forth guys arguing about indentation? :)
02:13:06 <olsner> I think indentation is nice because it is a visual representation of the tree structure most programs make
02:13:40 <olsner> linked basic blocks in an arbitrary graph is closer to the truth though (... in *imperative* programs, I guess)
02:14:07 <elliott> olsner: "I guess you could do A and then B... if you're the kind of person who writes *imperative* programs... heh."
02:14:42 <olsner> I guess elliott could do A and then B regardless of what kind of person he is
02:14:58 <olsner> ... because that's the kind of person he is?
02:17:39 <olsner> elliott: grasp! do you have it?
02:17:39 <quintopia> the completely graph oriented language...
02:19:49 * olsner builds a graph and orients a language along it
02:20:38 <quintopia> "ever see forth guys?" will forever be known as your pinnacle unless you pull it together
02:30:10 <pikhq> olsner: Editors should simply present visual representations of the tree structure of the program.
02:30:54 <pikhq> olsner: Rather than simply rendering the text that happens to be in the language syntax.
02:31:17 <pikhq> For instance, it *should* be perfectly feasible to display sexp Lisp using mexps.
02:31:27 * Sgeo has a strong feeling that others have had that idea before, and it never turned out well
02:31:49 <pikhq> Syntactic sugar for sexps.
02:32:18 <Sgeo> Why do you need syntactic sugar for sexps?
02:32:20 <pikhq> It was *intended* that sexps were just the behind-the-scenes representation of things. Didn't take off because the first Lisp interpreter didn't bother to handle them.
02:32:32 <pikhq> ... So that 2+2 is a meaningful expression?
02:33:11 <Sgeo> That sounds awesome
02:33:19 <Sgeo> So, what about, say, (+ 2 2 2)
02:33:24 <Sgeo> What does mexps do there?
02:33:53 <elliott> mexp for (+ 2 2 2) is +[2;2;2]
02:33:54 <pikhq> 2+2+2 or +[2; 2; 2], I'm pretty sure.
02:34:57 <elliott> Sgeo: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/86/212588975_5fa840ddd2.jpg the original self-evaluator, in s-expressions
02:35:09 <elliott> http://www.arcfn.com/2008/07/maxwells-equations-of-software-examined.html more written-outly
02:35:26 <pikhq> I quite love how the first Lisp interpreter was made.
02:35:52 <elliott> apparently there's a paren mismatch :D
02:36:03 <elliott> http://www.instprog.com/blogposts/McCarthys-eval/memo.png
02:36:09 <elliott> http://kazimirmajorinc.blogspot.com/2010/05/interesting-case-of-mismatched.html
02:36:12 <elliott> enjoy shitty blog post to see it
02:39:03 <catseye> < pikhq> olsner: Editors should simply present visual representations of the tree structure of the program.
02:39:27 <catseye> I read a paper once about an IDE that did exactly this, and *omitted names*, replacing them with arcs between nodes.
02:39:37 <catseye> It was highly vitriolic on the evils of names.
02:39:53 <pikhq> That's somewhat comical, indeed.
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05:14:31 <pikhq> elliott: Why am I sleepy *early*?
05:14:38 <pikhq> How does this make any sense?
05:15:39 <elliott> pikhq: about as much sense as me and catseye trying to produce something of actual value...
05:17:59 <elliott> pikhq: yet both are happening! although the latter in a very confused state
05:19:15 <Gregor> WebSplat now has goombalike enemies.
05:19:35 <Gregor> elliott: No, I couldn't figure out howTF to get the favicon from within JS X_X
05:19:46 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, just try /favicon.ico.
05:19:50 <elliott> Failing that, look at page headers.
05:20:05 <Gregor> Well, yeah, I could certainly do that >_>
05:20:15 <elliott> Gregor: yes, well, favicons are yuck
05:20:40 <Gregor> Anyway, no, for the moment I'm using yet another quintopia drawing :P
05:20:49 <Gregor> Also, TimeCube has now become CRAZY-HARD.
05:21:15 <Gregor> Remember: quintopia's ideas get precedence for the simple reason that he's actually providing data :P
05:21:41 <zzo38> I have on paper I invented a 32-bit CPU architecture. It has byte 32-bits long. Incrementing immediates is impossible. An instruction code has 4-bits condition, 5-bits command, 5-bits operand mode, 1-bit push old value, 1-bit affect flags, 8-bits destination parameter, 8-bits source parameter.
05:22:00 <elliott> Gregor: I need a way to jump even when there's stuff above me.
05:22:05 <elliott> It's simply impossible as is.
05:22:17 <elliott> Gregor: worst controls ever
05:22:36 <Gregor> elliott: Crouch-jump isn't a special jump, it's ducking through elements then air-jumping :P
05:22:40 <zzo38> And it has eight rings, each with its own registers. There is 128 registers and the other 128 registers are just the memory indexed by the actual 128 registers. Sixty-four registers are special use.
05:23:12 <Gregor> <elliott> Rather than be helpful I like to complain about things.
05:24:28 <elliott> without moving left or right
05:24:56 <elliott> Gregor: no wait while holding right
05:25:06 <elliott> Gregor: die while jumping; die in mid-air.
05:25:24 <Gregor> Yes, right now you stop suffering from gravity when you die :P
05:26:07 <zzo38> Does it matter gravity if you are dead? Unless the game can do useful things while dead?
05:26:17 <elliott> Gregor: now give it ragdoll physics
05:26:49 <Gregor> zzo38: It's just an excuse for elliott to complain.
05:26:54 <Gregor> zzo38: Not that he needs 'em.
05:27:18 <elliott> Gregor: i died on theonion.com because i looked away
05:27:23 <elliott> also i'm just providing data.
05:33:30 <elliott> Gregor: so how did you achieve this?
05:34:27 <Gregor> How did I achieve what?
05:34:56 <zzo38> I have another idea, which is to design a microprocessor that you can dynamically modify microcodes to be optimal for the program you are writing
05:35:20 <Gregor> elliott: It's detected like any other collision...
05:37:08 <elliott> Gregor: horizontal scrolling please
05:37:10 <Gregor> elliott: If you ctrl+- enough on HavenWorks before playing, you can get full width :P
05:37:19 <Gregor> elliott: I've tried multiple times and it's been horribly broken each time >_>
05:37:32 <Gregor> elliott: It's stupidly difficult to determine if the page horizontally scrolls <_<
05:38:12 <Gregor> elliott: Basically, every time I've ended up with something that scrolls properly on pages that have horizontal scrolling, but thinks that e.g. Wikipedia's front page is suddenly 3 screens wide for no obvious reason.
05:38:38 <elliott> Gregor: gimme hp dammit :P
05:43:42 <zzo38> Make a game with the periodic table of elements
05:44:05 * Gregor proceeds to google for a page with the periodic table of the elements, play websplat on it, and declare success.
05:44:48 <zzo38> Gregor: That doesn't count.
05:45:02 <zzo38> Make a game with cards with the periodic table of elements.
05:46:05 <zzo38> Make a game that you will win a big spider three times as big as you.
05:46:15 <zzo38> Make a game that you have to prevent all of the magnets from touching each other.
05:46:43 <zzo38> Make a game involving infinite dimensional space.
05:47:31 <zzo38> * Hallucination mushrooms
05:47:35 <zzo38> * Poison mushrooms
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05:53:19 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.theonion.com/articles/bored-entertainment-media-decides-to-go-after-ray,18295/?utm_source=recentnews unplayable
05:53:25 <elliott> images at bottom seem to extend rightwards beyond playfield
05:55:04 <Gregor> Why is it so difficult to determine if something is actually visible X_X
05:57:52 <zzo38> Is there a real reason?
05:58:24 <Gregor> There are two obvious ways to make an element invisible, and infinity nonobvious ways.
05:58:53 <Gregor> In this case, the image is invisible because one of its parent elements is overflow:clip, and the image's location is outside the clipping area.
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06:47:21 <catseye> < zzo38> Does it matter gravity if you are dead? Unless the game can do useful things while dead?
06:47:42 <catseye> you could collect the bombs as you fell after you died
06:48:14 <catseye> and in theory pass the level before the death was 'final' if you got the last bomb, i guess
06:48:23 <catseye> i don't remember if i ever accomplished this
06:48:45 <zzo38> Is that how that game work?
06:49:01 <zzo38> I do suppose that is one possibility.
06:52:06 <catseye> I do remember that you could collect bombs, as you fell, after you died (and you would get points and the playfield would change accordingly.) But unless you got all the bombs, you would continue to fall, and lose a life once you hit the bottom.
06:52:36 <catseye> No periodic table of elements, I'm afraid.
06:53:09 <zzo38> Ah. Could you have a strategy having to do with the time limit, that is required in order to collect the bombs in this way?
06:53:32 <catseye> Probably. I don't remember a time limit, though...
06:53:57 <catseye> Although, I do remember the washroom of a library that no longer exists (they demolished it to build a new, better library.)
06:54:07 <catseye> *Why* I remember this, now, I cannot say.
06:54:42 <Gregor> catseye: You got /that number/ off the bathroom wall.
06:56:29 <catseye> What Avogadro was going in that washroom, I will never know.
07:03:37 <catseye> "Can i re-use your code here with some modifications? I dont see a GPL, but I dont want to steal."
07:03:42 <catseye> those are the two options, you see
07:03:56 <catseye> copyright with no license thus assumed yours and you'll sue me
07:04:23 <zzo38> What code do you mean?
07:04:40 <catseye> http://4thmouse.com/index.php/2008/02/20/netcat-clone-in-three-languages-part-i-ruby/
07:05:47 <Gregor> catseye: There are no other licenses.
07:06:03 <Gregor> catseye: If anyone has told you otherwise, they're liars trying to hinder your Freedom.
07:06:56 <zzo38> Of course there are other licenses. But some of them might not be any good.
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07:12:33 <catseye> i like the idea that "a GPL" refers to any open-source license, kind of like how "a coke" refers to any soda, in certain parts of the US.
07:13:10 <catseye> "hey slap a BSD GPL on that thing and we're good to go"
07:15:08 <zzo38> And of course it is about just as bad in both ways. But at least if you write "a coke" without capitalized or if it is "a Coke" capitalized, you might know the difference by context.
07:16:08 <catseye> zzo38: I'm not sure it's a written thing so much as a spoken thing. If you're curious: http://popvssoda.com:2998/
07:17:20 <zzo38> catseye: You are right; when speaking you can often use informal phrases that you just make up, since it is not written down and don't need to be recorded by writing down.
07:17:48 <catseye> And they do, seriously, say things like "What kind of coke do you want?" "Orange coke."
07:18:11 <catseye> I always called them "soft drinks"...
07:18:40 <zzo38> I suppose that is what you can use, in different localities they have their own words
07:18:48 <catseye> ... that might be a Canadian thing, although, if so, it's not represented on that map.
07:19:57 <zzo38> In the area where I live in Canada, they do often (not always) call it "soft drinks".
07:40:10 <quintopia> and in fact "soft drink" is slowly taking over
07:40:27 <quintopia> so that asking for a coke here in the city gets you a Coke and not a "what kind?"
07:42:00 <Ilari> Sugar Coke or HFCS Coke? :-)
07:44:30 <quintopia> you have to go to a supermercado for sugar coke
07:47:32 <Ilari> Dunno if HFCS Coke is actually worse for you than Sugar Coke (it at least isn't better for you), but sugar Coke is already terrible for health.
07:48:56 <Ilari> Fun term for margarine: "lubricant".
07:50:58 <Ilari> As in "pass the lubricant".
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08:14:37 <catseye> and ruby code... not working so much
08:16:16 <quintopia> Ilari: sugar coke tastes so much better tho
08:16:18 <catseye> damn you, completely undocumented IO.select
08:22:44 <Ilari> So I have heard (never tasted HFCS Coke, only Light Coke and the regular one).
08:23:16 <Ilari> The Light versions tastes like crap (like "light" products usually do).
08:26:43 <Ilari> Three good reasons not to use "light" products: a) They taste like crap, b) They replace healthy stuff with questionable-at-best or downright known to be terrible for you stuff, c) They don't work for weight loss (the intended purpose) anyway.
08:36:37 <Ilari> Someone tested heating "light" "cheeses" in microwave... Instead melting like cheese does, that product IIRC "disintegrated".
08:53:38 <zzo38> Then it isn't proper cheese, probably. Maybe they mixed with something else, or else did it entirely differently. Do they have warning labels on them indicating not to heat in microwave? (Better, just don't buy it at all)
08:55:40 <zzo38> Here is an example of how you can write a code in Enhanced CWEB to allow the strings in your program to be internationalized by external files: http://sprunge.us/LgHF
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09:00:24 <zzo38> For a kind of report, I have a question: What literate programming systems have you used?
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09:08:11 <zzo38> As well as any literate programming systems, also any code documentation tools and code generation tools, and things similar to literate programming tools, too.
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09:44:59 <zzo38> I have idea: Make a sixteen-dimensional chess game.
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11:13:26 <cheater99> i love the photo on that page: http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/index.htm
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11:19:00 <augur> cheater99: wellnowwhat.net/blog
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11:54:25 <Ilari> Haha... "ROFLMAO... Yeah, and if Ostriches had 15 times the wing surface area they could probably fly." (on one mailinglist)
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15:31:54 <elliott> 23:47:32 <Ilari> Dunno if HFCS Coke is actually worse for you than Sugar Coke (it at least isn't better for you), but sugar Coke is already terrible for health.
15:32:02 <elliott> 23:48:56 <Ilari> Fun term for margarine: "lubricant".
15:32:02 <elliott> 23:50:58 <Ilari> As in "pass the lubricant".
15:32:08 <elliott> That ... may be ... misinterpreted ... slightly ...
15:32:36 <elliott> 00:22:44 <Ilari> So I have heard (never tasted HFCS Coke, only Light Coke and the regular one).
15:32:45 <elliott> hmm, right, I guess HFCS coke may not be the only kind of coke in other countries
15:32:53 <elliott> Ilari: is "Coca-Cola" over there sugar, not HFCS?
15:33:19 <elliott> I am actually not sure what it is over here.
15:33:38 <elliott> I mean, on one hand, I can totally see us buying into the HFCS crap; on the other hand, the US is uniquely privileged in its insanity.
15:33:48 <Ilari> Actually, I think that the only country where HFCS Coke is even available is the US.
15:35:08 <elliott> Which just makes me think: if US people think that sugar Coke tastes better than HFCS Coke (which they usually do if they have an opinion at all),
15:35:15 <elliott> what the fuck does HFCS Coke taste like if not liquid sugar?
15:36:10 <Ilari> Oh, the equivalent to HFCS is making a beachhead as "Glucose-Fructose Syrup".
15:36:53 <elliott> "Effect of Coke on Sperm Motility" I, uh
15:36:58 <elliott> "Effect of Coke on Sperm Motility" ...
15:37:06 <elliott> "The spermicidal potency of Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola."
15:37:14 <Ilari> I don't drink that stuff anyway.
15:37:31 <elliott> I wonder who decided to test whether Coke was an effective contraceptive or not.
15:39:39 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Coca-Cola_Morocco.jpg YOU CANNOT ESCAPE THE ADS, EVEN IN THE MOUNTAINS OF MOROCCO
15:41:32 <Ilari> That kind of research sounds like what's in Annals of Improbable Research.
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15:43:14 <elliott> 00:27:54 --- join: Punk (Punk@c-76-104-158-217.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) joined #esoteric
15:43:15 <elliott> 00:28:10 <Punk> anyone alive in here?
15:43:15 <elliott> 00:28:39 <Punk> do you know anything about the 'order of the ookpik'? it's a secret society one of my family members was in and i can't find any information about it ANYWHERE
15:43:17 <elliott> BAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA
15:43:28 <elliott> Ilari: they won Ig Nobel prizes for it, apparently
15:43:40 <elliott> Ilari: one to the people who discovered that it is effective, one to the people who discovered it's not :)
15:45:05 <Ilari> Wonder about quality of those studies...
15:57:08 <elliott> Ilari: I've lost the link now but you can search /Ig Nobel/ on Wikipedia's [[Coca-Cola]].
15:59:54 <Ilari> Haha... "A minute later, all sperm were dead in the Diet Coke, but 41% were still swimming in the just-introduced New Coke."... Wonder what the heck is in diet coke...
16:00:55 <elliott> 00:35:29 <Punk> i do a google search for "order of the ookpik" and there is ONE result. one guy in a forum referencing th eorder i talk of
16:00:55 <elliott> the *other* result: http://boards.4chan.org/tg/res/12540100
16:01:01 <elliott> makes me suspect slightly that it may be 4chan silliness
16:01:38 <elliott> hmph, all the fun people are offline! :P
16:02:01 <Ilari> For other odd IRC encounters, search for "The legend of potatopatrick".
16:08:10 <Ilari> Just that some study doesn't have serious subject doesn't mean it can't be well done. And serious studies can be very badly done (if not with outright maliscously).
16:08:32 <elliott> Ilari: Well both got published for better or worse...
16:09:12 <Ilari> There are lots of studies published that wouldn't pass as undergrad science report.
16:10:25 <Ilari> Someone's opinion on matter: 5% of what is published should actually have been published, and about 2% is actually signaficant.
16:10:52 <Ilari> I guess that varies a bit by field.
16:11:34 <Ilari> Or by subfield. E.g. compare IPCC WG1 and IPCC WG3.
16:13:20 <Vorpal> Ilari, I'm not familiar with those, which one is "worst"?
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16:14:56 <Ilari> IPCC WG1 > IPCC WG2 > IPCC WG3 (in terms of science quality).
16:16:38 <Ilari> IPCC WG1 about what global warming (climate change) actually is. IIRC, WG2 is adaptation to climate change and WG3 is mitigation of climate change.
16:17:01 <Vorpal> Ilari, so the last one is about how to stop it?
16:17:36 <Ilari> Yup, stopping/reducing it... Which I don't think is gracefully possible.
16:17:48 <Vorpal> Ilari, it is what needs to be done however
16:18:24 <Ilari> Key word there is "gracefully"... Remebmer the chinese curse "May you live in interesting times"?
16:18:54 <Vorpal> Ilari, is it actually Chinese in origins?
16:19:05 <Vorpal> Ilari, I thought it was something Pratchett made up XD
16:19:19 <Vorpal> At the current rate it won't take many centuries until we have Venus II really...
16:19:31 <elliott> Ilari: bioengineering seems promising.
16:19:40 <elliott> of course nobody wants to fund it and we get ~green~ instead.
16:20:19 <Vorpal> if humans lived much longer they would probably be more responsible
16:20:40 <Ilari> There are good reassons to doubt validity of simulations (even if the models are good, the input data is suspect) giving likes of +5C or +6C warming by 2100...
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16:21:46 <elliott> My previous computer-instruction-set esolang was called Yael. Maybe this one should be called Havrard :)
16:22:05 <Ilari> I don't think real runaway climate change is possible. All carbon available would trigger Hell on Earth situation, but no real runaway climate change.
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16:23:15 <Ilari> Oh, there will be real runaway climate change, but that's at least hundreds of millions of years out...
16:23:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what about ITM or TIM?
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16:32:29 <Sgeo> I have homework to do. I shouldn't have opened XChat. Bye.
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16:34:52 <Sgeo|web> I know you're just pulling my leg, but in case you're not, I can read logs
16:35:35 <elliott> Sgeo|web: Jarhfoissoi fioehrhf uiehsoejfo sonertoihgusr msertoigjh sueroghuhs
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16:36:42 <Sgeo|web2> Closing out of the tab does not cause the webchat thing to disconnect properly
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16:47:12 <catseye> <Ilari> Actually, I think that the only country where HFCS Coke is even available is the US.
16:47:36 <pikhq> catseye: No, you guys *should* have sugared Coke.
16:47:56 <pikhq> catseye: HFCS Coke only makes sense in the US because we subsidise corn and tarrif sugar.
16:50:20 <catseye> pikhq: it's a "may contain" thing (it's called "glucose-fructose" on the label, which lets it be any kind of invert sugar, including HFCS.) Granted, in most places in Canada, it's not HFCS. But anywhere it would make sensse economically for it to be, it would be.
16:50:38 <pikhq> catseye: That should be "absolutely nowhere".
16:50:55 <pikhq> catseye: HFCS is significantly more expensive than sucrose.
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16:51:22 <pikhq> The US government has to shovel money at people so that we don't use that evil, nasty, foreign sugar.
16:53:13 <pikhq> *Wow*. Vint Cerf is responsible for IPv4 only having 32 bit addresses.
16:53:33 <pikhq> Because surely 4.3 billion addresses would be enough for the internetworking experiment!
17:01:28 <catseye> I am out of date, but a brief search reveals either crazy people, or it's gotten worse: "I lived in Ottawa, Ontario for nine years. The Coca-Cola bottle labels from the Ottawa Coca-Cola bottler indicated "High Fructose Corn Syrup" long BEFORE the bottler in New York (where my other residence was.)"
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17:16:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, it could make sense if it was shorter to transport from US to Canada, near the border that is
17:21:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, isn't south US hot enough to grow cane sugar?
17:23:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, but nowhere near as much as we grow corn.
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17:28:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about beets then?
17:28:33 <pikhq> I don't think you realise how much land we throw at corn.
17:29:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, but you can even grow sugar beets in south Sweden!
17:29:22 <Vorpal> surely you could in all but Alaska
17:29:24 <pikhq> I'd estimate about a third of the land of the US is growing corn.
17:29:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, they could easily switch
17:29:45 <pikhq> And that corn is subsidised by the government.
17:30:00 <pikhq> And any threat to that subsidy would be knocked down by the corn lobbies. THEY HAVE FUCKING LOBBIES.
17:30:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, shouldn't the republicans want to remove it
17:30:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, they fellate them.
17:31:03 <pikhq> The only thing they love more than shouting "small government" while not following through is claiming to be in favor of the "rural farmer" while giving kickbacks to gigantic corporations!
17:31:55 <pikhq> (the small farm is essentially a myth in the US. One that the Republican party uses to great effect.
17:35:46 <catseye> most "food" in the US is actually corn.
17:35:46 <cheater99> given that the co-value on food is an involute, i would call you call co-co-nuts.
17:36:03 <catseye> meat, for example. that animal was fed... corn
17:36:07 <cheater99> most corn in switzerland is actually hashish
17:36:55 <pikhq> Yup, it was almost certainly fed corn.
17:40:43 <Vorpal> [[ On September 14, 2010, The Corn Refiners Association applied for permission to use the name "corn sugar" in place of high fructose corn syrup on food labels for products sold in the United States. According to a press release, "Consumers need to know what is in their foods and where their foods come from and we want to be clear with them," said CRA president Audrae Erickson. "The term 'corn sugar' su
17:40:43 <Vorpal> ccinctly and accurately describes what this natural ingredient is and where it comes from – corn." ]]
17:41:44 <pikhq> Why yes, yes it is.
17:42:13 <Vorpal> [[ The association however did not provide clarification as to a change in what the FDA already considers corn sugar, i.e., dextrose[75] or any of the other corn-derived sugars such as corn syrup and maltodextrin. ]]
17:44:51 <catseye> yup, good ol' fashion corn sugar!
17:45:23 <pikhq> Anyways, Imma shut down my system and do some stuff with it.
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17:46:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, was that in response to pikhq's comment or in to what I quoted?
17:47:09 <Gregor> Your quote is a lot less offensive than you make it out to be.
17:47:24 <Vorpal> Gregor, well, one can never be sure with you
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17:53:20 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, which comment of pikhq?
17:56:03 <catseye> <elliott> 00:28:39 <Punk> do you know anything about the 'order of the ookpik'? it's a secret society one of my family members was in and i can't find any information about it ANYWHERE
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17:56:05 <Gregor> YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL MADE OF FAIL.
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17:58:17 <Vorpal> actually it sounds like a damn good secret society.
17:58:23 <Vorpal> I mean, if you can't find any info on it
17:58:29 <Vorpal> it is obviously quite secret
17:58:46 <Gregor> In that it's restricted to one person :P
17:59:28 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.allegro.cc/; can't jump on main area of "Main" heading
18:01:18 <elliott> Gregor: Now try walking right.
18:02:09 <Gregor> I'm confused, I seem to have full range of motion while standing on the word "Main"
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18:03:55 <elliott> But the rest of the green heading
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18:04:53 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't stand on the rest of the green heading at all
18:04:57 <Vorpal> elliott, at least not in firefox
18:06:30 <elliott> Gregor: Pages on http://wwwwwwwww.jodi.org/ would be awesome but they have few images :(
18:06:32 <Gregor> elliott: That's true, but by design :P
18:06:44 <Gregor> Well, not by design per se ...
18:06:58 <Gregor> More to the point, I can't determine the difference between a "green" heading and any other heading.
18:07:19 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, you shouldn't recommend Google.
18:07:28 <elliott> Gregor: Also, I just meant... it's a block element.
18:07:29 <Ilari> Ah, good old trying to dump a tarnished name...
18:07:32 <elliott> And it has children and shit.
18:07:45 <Ilari> Like Blackwater -> Xe services.
18:08:00 <Gregor> elliott: Lots and LOTS of things are block elements.
18:08:04 <Ilari> Talking about that HFCS -> Corn Sugar.
18:08:10 <Gregor> elliott: If every block element was a platform, the game would suck horribly.
18:08:14 <elliott> Your mom is a block element.
18:08:28 <elliott> Gregor: Your mom sucks horribly.
18:09:30 <Vorpal> Gregor, css needs a new attribute: jumpable
18:09:48 <Vorpal> that website designers are mandated to use properly
18:10:02 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, you know the yellow border around images?
18:10:38 * Gregor wonders what that means ...
18:11:15 <Gregor> I need that so much X-D
18:11:39 <Gregor> Of course, they could just override it with their own !important, presumably :P
18:12:16 <Vorpal> elliott, that wwwwwwwww.jodi.org is highly confusing
18:12:38 <Gregor> Also "!important" is a terrible name for something that makes a style IMPORTANT.
18:14:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, yes indeed it should mandate upper case and at least 12 exclamation marks!
18:14:09 <elliott> Gregor: I will now attempt to play http://www.reddit.com/r/hurts_my_eyes/.
18:14:14 <elliott> Also, I think they might need !important !important.
18:15:06 <Gregor> Err, that seems to have broken everything ...
18:15:10 <elliott> Gregor: Sweet, it makes the game selection crazy
18:15:35 <Gregor> The borders went away entirely.
18:16:03 <elliott> img { border: poop !important; }
18:16:08 <Gregor> c.style.border = "2px solid gold !important";
18:16:18 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah it's more like
18:16:28 <elliott> c.style = c.style + "border: 2px solid gold !important";
18:17:11 <elliott> has a thing to add styles, it seems
18:17:38 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway wouldn't it be easier to add a global stylesheet?
18:17:49 <elliott> Gregor: Just insert a <style type="text/css"> img { border: ... !important; }</style>
18:18:03 <Gregor> A) That is not how el.style works.
18:18:08 <Gregor> B) No, that would be much, much harder.
18:18:20 <catseye> yay i can use IO.popen in Ruby yay
18:19:10 <Gregor> And do you HONESTLY think I did all of this without knowing HOW TO ADD CSS STYLES TO ELEMENTS FROM JAVASCRIPT?
18:19:13 * Gregor smacks elliott upside the head.
18:20:52 <elliott> Gregor: I know that you can do that ...
18:20:58 <elliott> can't add !important that way.
18:21:12 <Gregor> <elliott> c.style = c.style + "border: 2px solid gold !important"; <-- you can't do this
18:21:36 <elliott> Gregor: http://rule52.com/2008/06/css-rule-page-load/ was what lead me to have the impression that jQuery had something to add styles with !important. Instead it just implements it itself.
18:21:41 <elliott> Anyway, no, inserting a style element is ... trivial?
18:22:25 <elliott> Gregor: But anyway, I don't see the difficutly at all.
18:22:39 <elliott> Also, give those dogs a border, they look strange on white backgrounds
18:23:21 <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: But anyway, I don't see the difficutly at all. <-- this is because you have no idea what the system is doing here :P
18:23:30 <elliott> Probably something stupid.
18:23:43 <Gregor> That being said, I could probably apply the right /class/ to the elements, and have a style based on that class ...
18:24:37 <elliott> Gregor: I'll just not report bugs yay
18:25:30 <Gregor> <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: But anyway, I don't see the difficutly at all. <-- this is because you have no idea what the system is doing here :P <elliott> Probably something stupid. <-- this is not reporting a bug.
18:25:37 <Gregor> This is being a douchebag for the sake of being a douchebag.
18:25:44 <elliott> Gregor: I...was...joking...
18:25:53 <Vorpal> Gregor, indeed, elliott loves that
18:26:06 <elliott> Gregor: Remind me to collapse in a pool of offence the next time you say "your face"
18:26:58 <Gregor> Only if you remind your FACE to collapse in a pool of offense the next time I use an American spelling!
18:27:48 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:28:26 <pikhq> Mmkay, done getting rid of the rat's nest.
18:28:34 <elliott> pikhq: I... was that literal?
18:28:45 <elliott> Gregor: Are dogs which just wiggle on the spot evilly and spell instant deatha bug or not?
18:28:51 <pikhq> elliott: Not literal.
18:29:16 <Gregor> elliott: To the former, that's not a bug, they're just on a very small platform.
18:29:24 <elliott> Yes but they also cause issues.
18:29:25 <Gregor> To the latter: Well, it should be POSSIBLE to kill them, if not easy.
18:30:21 <elliott> Gregor: Well, it's a pain :P
18:30:24 <Gregor> Their platform AI could be far smarter than it is :P
18:30:29 <elliott> Also, which former and latter???
18:31:11 <Gregor> "wiggle on the spot evilly" and "spell instant death"
18:32:23 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, I just died by going to the bottom of a page and pressing down.
18:32:27 <elliott> I fell further and... just... died.
18:32:48 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:33:05 <Gregor> That's not by design /per se/, but it's how it ended up resolving for the moment :P
18:33:24 <Gregor> Basically, it was easier to make it so you don't die at the bottom by just putting a platform at the bottom.
18:33:31 <Gregor> But it is a normal platform, so you can still fall through it and die :P
18:33:43 <Gregor> I could actually fix that easily now, but I like that you can suicide if you want :P
18:34:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:34:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, you can't win as such can you? No "you won" screen
18:35:35 <pikhq> Anyways. New kernel, somewhat tidy cabling, and now to decompress this monster so I can encode it.
18:36:22 * Gregor finds the "YOU ARE WINNER" trophy.
18:36:29 <elliott> pikhq: Sita Sings the 1080p / 5.1 FLAC Blues?
18:36:39 <elliott> pikhq: She released the FLAC filse
18:36:39 <Gregor> Oh, sorry, it's "YOU'RE WINNER"
18:36:47 <elliott> pikhq: You could do seventy trillion pixels squared.
18:36:48 <pikhq> elliott: I'm decompressing the y4m.xz file.
18:36:55 <elliott> pikhq: She released the Flash files
18:37:01 <elliott> pikhq: Is there any... vector video format?
18:37:09 <pikhq> elliott: Aside from .swf, not really.
18:37:15 <elliott> pikhq: Because... that would be amazing.
18:37:38 <pikhq> (you can use Javascript in SVG.)
18:38:08 <elliott> pikhq: Can you put SVG in MKV? :P
18:38:34 <pikhq> Yes, but nothing and I mean nothing will handle it.
18:38:41 <pikhq> You can literally put *anything* in MKV.
18:39:46 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, for what? <-- I won't answer, read scrollback
18:40:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or logs in your case
18:40:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, dear god, that is the most obnoxiously stupid thing I've heard you say.
18:40:14 <pikhq> So, NASA has started planning... For an interstellar space ship.
18:40:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "<Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or logs in your case"
18:40:43 <catseye> pikhq: i suppose it was inevitable
18:40:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm fine with that
18:41:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, elliott does it all the time however
18:41:56 <catseye> perhaps elliott should not be the gold standard for decorum on #esoteric
18:42:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, what, saying "NO I'M NOT GOING TO TELL YOU WHAT I'M GOING ON ABOUT BECAUSE MY TIME IS SO PRECIOUS"
18:43:25 <Gregor> Vorpal, elliott: OK THERE'S A WIN SCREEN NOW!
18:45:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I did not say that
18:45:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but yes
18:46:32 <catseye> Vorpal: you do realize that means that "elliott does it all the time however" is not a justification for your behavior, then?
18:46:49 <elliott> what do I do all the time?
18:47:25 <pikhq> 3 more hours of decompressing this...
18:47:32 <fizzie> "The Gold Team and the Silver Team stay here; the Brown Team goes to the special classroom in the basement."
18:47:52 <pikhq> (and yes, I tried using a FIFO to just shove the output to mencoder. Didn't work.)
18:48:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, I think I've worked out why Freespace was being weird, if I can get md5 sums competently.
18:48:51 <Vorpal> Gregor, just tried on w3.org
18:49:00 <Vorpal> do I need to clear cache or something?
18:49:26 <Gregor> Maybe, I've found that problematic occasionally ...
18:49:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, yeah worked on google
18:49:59 <Vorpal> should it look like 10 overlaid copied?
18:50:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, w3.org has 23 images, more than most. Fun to play at
18:50:46 <Vorpal> hard but not impossible
18:51:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, you might want to add it as a recommendation
18:51:55 <Gregor> Yes, it should look like a total mess.
18:58:29 <Vorpal> Gregor, aww, why does resizing the browser window result in dying?
18:58:58 <Gregor> Vorpal: Because it can't detect when elements move.
19:00:53 <Gregor> Vorpal: I don't know how to respond to that "oh?" :P
19:00:55 <Gregor> elliott: OK, coin borders are now actually "!important". I wish that would work from JS X_X
19:01:58 <Gregor> elliott: (Thanks for the tip on that)
19:07:43 <Gregor> They're called coins internally :P
19:08:28 -!- MYCROFTIV has changed nick to mycroftiv.
19:09:34 <elliott> Gregor: You're welcome for the bug report, goat-fucker!
19:09:58 <Gregor> Hey now! ... I would make some goat-sexing joke here but I can't think of what name a person would call a goat.
19:10:18 <Gregor> Something along the lines of "Hey now! <name for goat> and I are in LOVE!"
19:10:37 <elliott> Gregor: Neigh, I believe that goats have not got names.
19:11:03 <Gregor> Well, it's hard to argue that you're in love with Goat #3A
19:11:31 <elliott> Gregor: Please tell me you spotted the horse pun.
19:11:36 <elliott> I'm getting hoarse just telling it.
19:11:49 <Gregor> It was not worth commenting on X-P
19:12:08 <elliott> "What's the most common problem experienced among practitioners of equine fellatio?" "Their voice goes hoarse."
19:15:43 <elliott> Gregor: What do we want? favicon goombas!
19:15:49 <elliott> When do we want them? Sometime reasonably soon!
19:16:22 <Gregor> I don't know how to get the favicoooooooooooon D-8
19:16:35 <elliott> Gregor: codu.org php file that takes a domain and tries /favicon.ico; it either returns the data or gives a 404 response.
19:16:49 <elliott> If the JS receives a 404 response, it looks for a <meta> tag with... icon or whatever it was in the type.
19:17:00 <elliott> Gregor: And *yes* that is the *official* way to do it.
19:17:09 <elliott> You need the codu proxy so you can tell whether /favicon.ico exists or not.
19:17:30 <elliott> Gregor: And, yes, this violates the design goal of not reserving any paths in the namespace. Turns out nobody gives a shit.
19:18:48 <Gregor> Wait, wtf, it tries /favicon.ico BEFORE looking for a meta tag?
19:19:30 <Gregor> Also, there's no need for the proxy, my JS code is loaded into the host page, I can XHR it :)
19:20:09 <Gregor> Even if that wasn't the case, I could just make a new Image() and detect whether it loads properly or not, regardless of host.
19:20:17 <Ilari> Hurr... This IPv4 depletion estimate has IANA depletion in early April next year. But set it to use 2 years of historical data and it gives estimate in early March next year....
19:20:17 <Gregor> ... which is what I should do anyway.
19:22:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor: And, yes, this violates the design goal of not reserving any paths in the namespace. Turns out nobody gives a shit. <-- so... what about robots.txt
19:24:39 <Ilari> Vorpal: http://www.ipv4depletion.com/?page_id=77
19:24:59 <Vorpal> Ilari, that should be .net, no?
19:25:11 <fizzie> Gah, this time the smoke just smells like the essence of burning things.
19:25:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, also go look for some way to put it out then
19:26:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yesterday I mentioned it smells like popcorn, but maybe you weren't here then.
19:26:24 <fizzie> And it's intentional smoke, from one of those machines.
19:26:49 <fizzie> I thought those were supposed to be more or less odourless, though.
19:26:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, why are you using a smoke machine?
19:27:15 <fizzie> I'm not, the place is. There's a chiptune artist playing stuff.
19:27:42 <elliott> <Gregor> Wait, wtf, it tries /favicon.ico BEFORE looking for a meta tag?
19:27:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, where/what is that place?
19:27:47 <elliott> Do it the other way around.
19:28:09 <elliott> Gregor: Look for the meta tag, if it's there, use that; failing that, XHR /favicon.ico. Done.
19:28:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Someone from you country, actually, I think: http://m.altparty.org/event/alt2010-220 -- they're supposedly Swedish.
19:28:20 <elliott> Gregor: You may want to scale it to 2x.
19:28:32 <elliott> Gregor: Also maybe in *addition* to the existing goombas, since they're different aspect ratios. :P
19:28:35 <Gregor> elliott: It's 16x16 by default, right?
19:28:56 <elliott> Gregor: It *is* 16x16. Full stop.
19:28:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, it could support multiple sizes
19:29:05 <elliott> Gregor: wait, does img to an ico work? Right, yes, of course it does.
19:29:08 <Vorpal> it is an .ico after all
19:29:13 <Gregor> That's pretty darn small :P
19:29:34 <elliott> Gregor: And you'll want to keep existing dog things, just make them less frequent.
19:29:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, aren't the dogs around that size?
19:29:38 <elliott> Since different sizes etc.
19:30:39 <Gregor> The player is only 20x40
19:32:49 <Gregor> Argh, finding favicon = annoying ....
19:32:51 <zzo38> Not all webpages would have favicons.
19:32:54 <elliott> Gregor: Plof has both parenless function calls and also first-class functions, yes?
19:32:58 <elliott> How do you handle zero-argument calls?
19:33:06 <elliott> <zzo38> Not all webpages would have favicons. <-- so use a default one
19:33:15 <Gregor> elliott: It's just an unfortunate special case.
19:33:18 <elliott> Gregor: Google has a service to give you a favicon given a domain, reliably.
19:33:32 <Gregor> Given a /domain/, not a page?
19:33:35 <elliott> It's not anything "official" I think one of their apps use it. But, yeah.
19:33:39 <Gregor> And where is that? WANT.
19:33:46 <elliott> It was on reddit or something :P
19:34:08 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=dom
19:34:17 <elliott> But oh well, it also gives back a default favicon.
19:35:11 <Vorpal> elliott, seems it converts to png too
19:35:21 <elliott> <elliott> Gregor: Plof has both parenless function calls and also first-class functions, yes?
19:35:21 <elliott> <elliott> How do you handle zero-argument calls?
19:35:30 <elliott> i.e. does "f" call f with zero arguments or simply evaluate to f?
19:35:37 <elliott> If the latter, is there any special syntax for zero-argument calls?
19:35:51 <Gregor> <Gregor> () <Gregor> elliott: It's just an unfortunate special case.
19:35:59 <elliott> Gregor: Ohh, I thought you meant the favicons. X-D
19:36:13 <elliott> Gregor: i.e. when it has no favicon
19:36:34 <elliott> Gregor: In my/our case that's a bit inconvenient since it'd be nice to have things like .sort! to destructively sort, and () kinda ruins that a bit.
19:36:54 <zzo38> In C you write f() and it makes sense like that. But the thing that is slightly less sense is when you put a variable name it doesn't say address/fetch/store
19:37:17 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, it's not the nicest part of the syntax :(
19:37:44 <elliott> Gregor: You're not meant to lament it with me, you're meant to come up with a solution. :P
19:37:57 <zzo38> Another question, if you know about PXELINUX, can you please tell me why this program doesn't work: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1968354
19:38:37 <Gregor> elliott: Right now what little Plof effort I have is going towards the backend, not the frontend.
19:39:00 <elliott> Gregor: Does FYTHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE PLOF 4 fix this? :P
19:41:13 <Gregor> I'm just saying that that's not where my effort is :P
19:43:58 <zzo38> Have you seen a report about Vorbis is better than MP3 for vector drawings?
19:44:10 <Gregor> For ... vector drawings?
19:44:25 <zzo38> Yes, for vector drawings on an oscilloscope.
19:45:09 <zzo38> (The left speaker channel can correspond to the X axis, and the right speaker channel to the Y axis)
19:46:02 <zzo38> Although not mentioned in the report, I have seen this method of drawing called "scribblevision"
19:47:09 * Gregor wonders why the favicon goombas aren't working ...
19:47:16 <catseye> zzo38: I have to mention this now: http://www.intio.or.jp/jf10zl/corpmark.htm
19:47:51 <Gregor> Whoops, my stupidity is why not!
19:48:17 <catseye> JF10ZL is my electronics hero
19:49:13 <Gregor> FAVICON GOOMBAS AWAAAAAAY!
19:51:14 <Gregor> http://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=google.com works
19:51:18 <Gregor> http://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=www.google.com
19:51:26 <zzo38> He gave up communication by email, so has Donald Knuth, and myself, and some other people
19:52:30 <Gregor> In fact, www.foo doesn't work in general X_X
19:52:47 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=www.google.com WFM
19:52:54 <elliott> Your browser is on crack or something
19:53:07 <Gregor> I mean it doesn't result in Google's favicon.
19:53:11 <Gregor> It results in the generic favicon.
19:53:22 <elliott> Gregor: It... results in Google's favicon.
19:53:37 <Gregor> Not on any browser for me.
19:54:09 <elliott> Gregor: Also for reddit.com, github.com.
19:54:26 <Gregor> OK, reddit it works on ...
19:54:47 <Gregor> github too it works on.
19:54:52 <Gregor> It only fails for me on www.google.com
19:55:39 <elliott> Gregor: My google goes to .co.uk.
19:55:43 <elliott> But I doubt *that* does anything.
19:55:55 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:55:58 <elliott> $ curl -I http://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=www.google.comHTTP/1.1 200 OK
19:56:17 <Gregor> elliott: WTFWTFWTF that worked
19:56:29 <elliott> Gregor: Google location cookies.
19:56:40 <elliott> Gregor: curl can use a cookie jar, right? Is it compatible with any of your browsers? Try that.
19:56:40 <Gregor> Even with cookies, why would it give me the WRONG FAVICON?
19:57:39 <Gregor> elliott: They all store cookies in DBs now and curl can't use those.
19:57:58 <Gregor> Whatever, I no longer care, so long as the wtfery is localized :P
19:58:32 <Gregor> OH GOD THE GIANT W'S ARE GOING TO KILL ME
19:58:53 <elliott> They are slightly gigantic.
19:58:59 <elliott> Gregor: Are you sure you don't just want to scale them to 24x24?
19:59:15 <Gregor> I'm not sure of anything, I just went with 32x32 for lulz.
19:59:48 <elliott> Gregor: WHAT'S YOUR HIGH SCORE ON GOATSE.FR
20:00:36 <elliott> Gregor: Come to think of it cookies wouldn't matter.
20:00:46 <elliott> Gregor: It's google.com after all, that the favicon service is on.
20:00:51 <elliott> So *they get your Google cookies*.
20:01:40 <pikhq> Jeeeze. 1 year until an RIR is out of IPv4.
20:02:10 <elliott> Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock.
20:03:02 <pikhq> Which means probably 1 year until ISPs start *having a transition plan*.
20:03:21 <zzo38> Tick ____ tick ____ tick ____ tick tock tick ____ ticktickticktick ____ tickticktick _____________ tttttiiiiiicccccccckkkkkk___________ tick ticktick tick....
20:03:47 <elliott> 1, 1, 1, 101, 1111, 111, ...what, 1111
20:06:01 <Gregor> quintopia's gonna awesome up the favicons :)
20:06:15 <elliott> Gregor: How do you... awesome up... a favicon?
20:06:20 <elliott> Make a custom one for every single website?
20:06:25 <Gregor> By giving it little arms and legs :P
20:06:47 <elliott> Gregor: Crazy idea how about HP :|
20:07:24 <Gregor> Science, elliott! Speculative science!
20:07:47 <elliott> Gregor: gahahaa no don't add arms and legs
20:07:54 <elliott> the globes rolling arounnd
20:07:56 <elliott> is the most hilarious thing ever
20:08:49 <Gregor> elliott: AHA! So you see, that favicon URL doesn't work on at least one other page, w3!
20:09:09 <elliott> Gregor: ...but they don't have a fucking favicon
20:09:38 <elliott> Gregor: Well, uh, I have no idea.
20:09:41 <elliott> Gregor: Do it the manual way then.
20:09:46 <catseye> IO.popen should be called IO.poopen
20:09:57 <Gregor> elliott: But this way seemed so nice X-D
20:10:13 <catseye> zzo38: cuz it's poop! well no, it just hates me.
20:11:06 <elliott> catseye: i can totally help.
20:12:19 <elliott> "VALIDATORS, UNICORN, AND OTHER SOFTWARE"
20:12:48 <elliott> Gregor: Totally add a time-played counter.
20:13:36 <Gregor> TWICE CHROME HAS TRIED TO KILL MY SYSTEM
20:14:00 <pikhq> THIS THING GETS TO 9.07GB (in) AND THEN STOPS.
20:14:10 <elliott> pikhq: your MOM gets 9 gigs in and then stops
20:15:33 <catseye> elliott: i think it's the same problem you were having, or similar. i write stuff to a pipe, fine. other end is supposed to read each line and write stuff back (character count for now). i do this manually, everything works; if i try it in a select() loop, that process never becomes 'ready for reading'.
20:15:47 <elliott> catseye: why are you duplicating my perfect work psht :P
20:15:48 <catseye> so it's not IO.popen that hates me, really, it's IO.select
20:17:05 <pikhq> If it does this again I'm redownloading from archive.org.
20:18:22 <pikhq> Though in *principle* it should be perfectly correct; TCP does make that an entirely reasonable assumption, after all.
20:19:30 <catseye> elliott: did you ever get your perfect work to... work?
20:19:36 <elliott> catseye: well i will today!
20:19:43 <elliott> catseye: it has everything else but this tiny feature :P
20:20:19 <elliott> Gregor: Bug: Doesn't work on chrome://history :P
20:20:43 <Gregor> elliott: It actually does work on most of Firefox's internal pages, which is pretty amusing.
20:21:02 <elliott> Gregor: You know that URL that is the chrome itself?
20:21:05 <elliott> i.e. the actual interface?
20:21:19 <Gregor> I don't remember what URL that is, but yes :P
20:22:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what was your maximum speed with that aria thing?
20:22:43 <elliott> Gregor: chrome://browser/content/browser.xul
20:22:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 1 meg a sec or so
20:23:03 <elliott> "Is anyone else consistently amazed how well Google Maps works, even though it's made entirely of DOM elements?"
20:24:04 <elliott> Gregor: IT DOESN'T WORK ON THE BROWSER ;_;
20:24:45 <pikhq> elliott: ... Isn't everything entirely made of DOM elements on the web?
20:24:51 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know, by definition?
20:25:08 <elliott> Is anyone else consistently amazed how well people work, even though they're made entirely of atoms?
20:25:20 <pikhq> Ah, good, so I'm not insane. Just pissed off.
20:25:39 <Gregor> W3's Favicon goombas are now favicon goombas.
20:33:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
20:35:18 <Gregor> elliott: Game timer added.
20:35:45 <elliott> Gregor: Does it stop on death?
20:35:50 <elliott> Also, I don't get the trophy.
20:36:11 <elliott> Gregor: omg on codu.org it is hilarious the hats
20:40:39 <elliott> Gregor: 216 images, 461 time
20:40:48 <elliott> Gregor: it doesn't pause when you tab away
20:40:56 <elliott> also it doesn't stop when you die
20:41:24 <pikhq> No wonder it gives up. It runs out of space during decompression.
20:41:26 <Gregor> Whaaa? It shouldn't catch up.
20:41:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, larger HDD then
20:41:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, or delete some stuff
20:42:05 <elliott> Gregor: really though just fix the dying thing.
20:42:20 <Gregor> OH, the clock catches up.
20:42:22 <Gregor> Shoot, that's right ...
20:43:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, game doesn't work on http://codu.org/hats.php, you need to add something stand on in between :P
20:43:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Or just stop with the insanity. I like that one.
20:43:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, what are you trying to do?
20:43:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: Lossless feature-length film at 1080p.
20:43:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, haha, how many GB?
20:43:52 <pikhq> 341GB uncompressed.
20:43:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, and downloaded?
20:44:01 <Gregor> "Lossless" is particularly silly because your input is lossy :P
20:44:18 <pikhq> Gregor: The input is actually lossless.
20:44:38 <Gregor> Whaaa? What's your input?
20:44:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, rendered data perhaps?
20:45:05 <elliott> Gregor: Sita Sings the Blues.
20:45:13 <elliott> Gregor: A freely-distributed animated film.
20:45:31 <elliott> Gregor: Including raw, uncompressed 1080p video and the Flash vector files.
20:45:31 <pikhq> I can actually get this done.
20:45:40 <pikhq> mencoder supports streaming over HTTP.
20:45:46 <pikhq> I will just compress straight from archive.org
20:45:52 <elliott> pikhq: but it's .mov on archive.org, isn't it?
20:46:02 <elliott> pikhq: and it has the audio in.
20:46:10 <elliott> pikhq: make sure to include it as raw PCM
20:46:22 <pikhq> If not I can just use the FLAC I already have.
20:46:33 <elliott> Gregor: Havenworks is like the friggin' boss of WebSplat.
20:47:10 <elliott> Gregor: If it was multiplayer -- yes.
20:47:15 <elliott> Gregor: You have to get images before your opponent does.
20:47:24 <Vorpal> Gregor, can you tell me what that site is supposed to me?
20:47:25 <elliott> I would so kick your havenworks ass.
20:48:10 <pikhq> Oh, so that's why the raw off of archive.org is smaller. *That's* a 12fps video.
20:49:07 <elliott> pikhq: ...is the film 12fps?
20:49:25 <pikhq> elliott: Not unusual for animation.
20:49:37 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but for a film?
20:49:48 <pikhq> Animated film? Yeah.
20:55:18 * pikhq tries a 60 second sample.
20:55:28 <pikhq> It would seem this has serious issues with buffering.
21:00:00 <pikhq> Hmmm. Let's see if ffmpeg has issues with a FIFO.
21:02:01 <elliott> pikhq: ffmpeg could convert to flac on the fly, too :)
21:05:06 <pikhq> ffmpeg *does* work with a pipe. Ahahah.
21:05:15 <pikhq> Pity I deleted the xz in a fit of rage. XD
21:05:45 -!- nooga has joined.
21:05:57 <elliott> pikhq: REDOWNLOAD IT IS YOUR DESTINY.
21:06:02 <elliott> pikhq: <(curl raw_quicktime)
21:07:01 <pikhq> elliott: Does curl ever ever stop trying to retry a download?
21:07:36 <pikhq> ... Eh, I'll just tee the output from curl.
21:07:53 <pikhq> I can store this compressed just fine; it's just uncompressed that's a problem.
21:12:09 <catseye> so my Ruby problem, I *think*, was that I was using read instead of readpartial.
21:12:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:16:54 <Sgeo> Can't talk, no keyboard
21:17:34 <pikhq> Okay, there we go. Got ffmpeg just compressing straight to x264.
21:18:09 <Sgeo> Yay, found thecon screen keyboard
21:18:25 <pikhq> wget --tries=0 -O - -q http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/y4m/1080p/sita_sings_the_blues_1080p24.y4m.xz | tee "sita_sings_the_blues_1080p24.y4m.xz" | xz -d | ffmpeg -i - -vcodec libx264 -threads 0 -cqp 0 -vpre slower vid.avi
21:19:51 <elliott> pikhq: Why would it retry?
21:20:13 <pikhq> elliott: Connection drop?
21:20:31 <pikhq> elliott: I've got wget set to retry forever. Couldn't find a way to make curl do that.
21:22:00 <pikhq> Okay, so far this is compressing at 22,000 kbps.
21:22:00 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, so --tries is actual tries, not retries.
21:22:04 <elliott> 0 retries would just never retry :P
21:22:21 <pikhq> Let's go with... 13 hours.
21:22:51 <elliott> pikhq: Then you get to mkvmerge it with the FLAC :P
21:22:55 <elliott> pikhq: Hopefully it'll sync up alright...
21:23:05 <elliott> pikhq: We can get bsmntbombdood to play it.
21:23:10 <elliott> If anyone's computer can play it, his can.
21:23:25 <pikhq> Currently, this is going at sub-DVD bitrates.
21:23:43 <pikhq> Erm, no, it's not.
21:23:47 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Can't talk, no keyboard
21:23:47 <pikhq> Twice-DVD bitrates.
21:24:21 <pikhq> Moral of the story, animated content compresses really well.
21:25:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, naturally. Lots of same colour areas
21:25:58 <elliott> pikhq: It... would fit on a Blu-Ray? Surely not.
21:26:58 <catseye> This is driving me bonkers
21:27:23 <catseye> at least ONE of my scripts works, but what is the difference?
21:27:38 <elliott> catseye: pastie both of them?
21:27:56 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y5_zJ1xfQs looks like some of that animation is more fluid than 12fps. i may be wrong
21:29:05 <pikhq> elliott: The stream I'm actually encoding from is 24fps.
21:29:18 <elliott> catseye: what we're learning here is that fuck unix.
21:29:20 <pikhq> elliott: I'm going to guess that the one on archive.org has multiple framerates.
21:29:35 <elliott> pikhq: Variable frame rate, such amusement.
21:30:02 <pikhq> elliott: Anyways, yeah, it seems this would fit on a Blu-Ray. With room to spare.
21:30:16 <pikhq> The xz'd raw would.
21:30:43 <elliott> pikhq: but it breaks the blu-ray spec to do so?
21:30:46 <elliott> to have it as an actual video stream
21:31:06 <pikhq> Yes, it would break the Blu-Ray spec.
21:31:50 <Gregor> elliott: Offscreen images (e.g. havenworks :P) are no longer targets.
21:32:07 <elliott> Gregor: Horizontal scrolling my friend
21:32:11 <elliott> Gregor: also with havenworks just zoom out
21:32:22 <Gregor> That's what I told you to do X_X
21:32:22 <elliott> Gregor: it's not just off-screen
21:32:29 <Gregor> elliott: YOU make horizontal scrolling work, it's a huge PITA :P
21:32:42 <Gregor> That I can't fix so easily.
21:33:00 <Gregor> However, theonion should be winnable now, since the invisible elements were still onscreen.
21:33:14 <Gregor> (Just a bit counterintuitive)
21:33:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, well, it's fine if you have a touchpad that supports it.
21:34:17 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: E_FAILATKNOWINGWHATWE'RETALKINGABOUT :P
21:34:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it's better than Vorpal's way of handling that error.
21:35:19 -!- wareya_ has joined.
21:35:21 <pikhq> Well, this appears to be playable in realtime.
21:35:42 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:36:13 <elliott> catseye: oh interesting it's not actually select that does it
21:36:14 <catseye> elliott: it. working? now. maybe
21:36:24 <elliott> irb(main):001:0> foo = IO.popen("rev","r+")
21:36:24 <elliott> irb(main):002:0> foo << "abc\n"
21:36:54 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it's better than Vorpal's way of handling that error. <-- you mean, completely out of context comments? Not really no
21:37:11 <elliott> ooooh i have another thing
21:37:34 <elliott> catseye: -e 'rev >&2' works
21:38:44 <elliott> irb(main):001:0> foo = IO.popen("rev","w+")
21:38:44 <elliott> irb(main):002:0> foo.print "abc\n"
21:38:45 <elliott> irb(main):003:0> foo.flush
21:38:49 <elliott> irb(main):004:0> foo.read_nonblock 8192
21:38:51 <elliott> Errno::EAGAIN: Resource temporarily unavailable - read would block
21:39:48 <zzo38> Does "frobnicate the bar library" mean anything?
21:40:39 <elliott> it tweaks internal symbol tables
21:44:06 <Gregor> elliott: OK, so I MAY have just fixed horizontal scrolling ...
21:44:16 <Vorpal> zzo38, yes but what exactly is hard to say
21:44:41 <Vorpal> zzo38, without more context
21:45:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:46:06 <zzo38> Where can I find a list of how to typeset special characters in man pages?
21:50:30 <Gregor> Seeing havenweb covered in "YOU'RE WINNER would be the most epic thing ever.
21:50:38 <elliott> Yes, that would be impossible :P
21:51:25 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:52:07 <elliott> images got @ time [D|W] (died/won)
21:52:14 <elliott> 252/1402@827D to be precise :P
21:52:17 * Gregor implements proper time pausing ...
21:52:41 <elliott> hi ais523, we're playing platform games on the most badly-designed website ever
21:52:59 <elliott> apart from yvette's bridal formal
21:54:02 <elliott> Gregor: It doesn't help that the havenworks logo is both the favicon and one of the images to get :P
21:54:13 <elliott> Gregor: Can you set the opacity of the HUD?
21:54:24 <elliott> Make it white-on-65%-opaque-black or something.
21:54:29 <elliott> And put it in the bottom-right? It clashes with stuff as it is.
21:55:04 <Gregor> On the bottom-right I don't think it'll be very obvious ... maybe top-right?
21:55:07 <Gregor> Well, eh, that's no better.
21:56:36 <Gregor> Yeah, I guess I can just make it partially transparent :)
21:56:46 <Gregor> Not sure I'm a huge fan of that either ...
21:56:57 <elliott> Gregor: It's obvious enough when it's white-on-black...
21:57:07 <elliott> Even if the black is only 65% opaque.
21:57:24 <elliott> Gregor: Can you also decrease the threshold for horizontal scrolling? I keep walking into enemies by mistake.
21:57:53 <Gregor> It's already 200 pixels X-D
21:58:28 <ais523> SCO are getting more ridiculous, now; they've been offering to sell their contracts with other people to other other people
21:58:33 <ais523> and the other people are getting confused
21:58:52 <elliott> Gregor: 250 pixels! Or base it on screen width?
21:58:53 <ais523> at least two major companies have contacted SCO/the bankruptcy court and said, effectively, "we don't have a contract with you do we? what are you talking about?"
21:59:18 <ais523> and SCO's reply was to tell them, effectively, "actually, here's a different contract we forgot"
21:59:27 <ais523> nobody else seems to be able to make any sense of this either
21:59:33 <ais523> but it's certainly an innovative strategy
22:00:29 <ais523> the latest people they picked on like this were Oracle, incidentally
22:00:40 <Gregor> elliott: Have a suggested multiple of screen width? :P
22:01:04 <cheater99> i wish someone ported the modplug player to linux
22:01:09 <elliott> Gregor: It should be window width anyway.
22:01:13 <ais523> and Oracle's response was a very Agoran "I don't know what you're talking about, but I object just in case"
22:01:36 <Gregor> elliott: That was what I assumed you meant.
22:01:47 <elliott> Gregor: Your face is what I assumed your meant.
22:02:21 <elliott> Gregor: I spawned on an enemy X_X
22:02:26 <elliott> Gregor: Also, the time includes the loading time.
22:02:41 <Gregor> elliott: Argh, spawning on an enemy should be impossible. Also, the time does NOT include the load time.
22:02:51 <elliott> Gregor: well that was NOT 29 seconds
22:03:05 <elliott> Gregor: presumably me and an enemy spawned apart
22:03:08 <elliott> because i spawned in midair
22:03:12 <elliott> because i spawned on an image
22:04:15 <ais523> also, I worry that http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:BytePushCore is becoming sentient
22:04:40 <Gregor> WTF WHY CAN'T I SET THE FONT COLOR
22:05:44 <Vorpal> ais523, wtf at that SCO thing
22:08:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes read what ais523 said in the last screenful
22:09:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, starts after <ais523> SCO are getting more [...]
22:10:30 <elliott> Gregor: 216@625D; I was taking it slowly and going for breadth, but then a stupid ACTUALLY STATIONARY favicon got me.
22:10:38 <elliott> Gregor: Plz make favicons flip to show direction or something :P
22:11:03 <Gregor> I can't make them flip, can't do that from JS. I could do it on the server, but right now the server doesn't do anything :P
22:11:29 <Gregor> Right now I'm trying to properly make your half-opaque HUD. Which should work except WHY ISN'T THIS FONT COLOR SETTING PROPERLY ARGH
22:12:38 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Setting a CSS class to set color: white !important, and putting that CSS class on the table cells of the HUD.
22:13:54 <Gregor> ArghwtfCSS. MY FAULT I'M DUMB.
22:13:56 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh... why not use inline styles?
22:14:19 <Gregor> elliott: Because it was getting overridden, and I can't set "!important" from JavaScript.
22:14:34 <elliott> Gregor: <td style="foo: bar !important">
22:14:40 <elliott> you can set the style attribute manually
22:14:50 <Gregor> elliott: I didn't write a <td>, I made it in JS.
22:15:51 <Gregor> Bleh, I wouldn't have thought to use that to set the style since that's a really grody way to set style .....
22:15:59 <Gregor> Anyway, I have a DIFFERENT SOLUTION.
22:17:14 <olsner> hmm, in fossil, commits have background color
22:17:42 <Vorpal> olsner is that fossil as in venti?
22:18:14 <olsner> if that's venti as in fossil, then yes?
22:18:59 <olsner> I was referring to the version control system, fossil-scm.org
22:19:05 <ais523> Vorpal: Phantom_Hoover: SCO have gone from making software to making lawsuits to making WTFs
22:19:15 <Gregor> elliott: FIX'T looka fancy HUD
22:20:09 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: i am on oerjan's payroll
22:21:28 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: are you suggesting that I run an independent punster factory?
22:21:42 <olsner> gaaah, the fossil faq has "What is the difference between a branch and a fork?" and says it's much too big a question for the FAQ...
22:21:45 <olsner> ... but reading the referenced part of the documentation, it turns out that there *is no difference*
22:21:49 <elliott> Gregor: GIVE IT A ROUNDED CORNR
22:21:55 <elliott> although cornr is appropriate
22:22:09 <Phantom_Hoover> catseye, I'm suggesting that you help me overthrow the tyrannical regime of oerjan and implement my own tyrannical regime.
22:22:26 <Gregor> elliott: ... is there a CSS attribute for that? :P
22:22:34 <Vorpal> olsner, ah no that is a different fossil
22:22:46 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: polymorphic tyrrany!
22:22:53 <elliott> Gregor: Add -moz-border-radius and -webkit-border-radius to taste.
22:23:00 <elliott> Gregor: In fact, just use this: http://border-radius.com/
22:23:31 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.fourmilab.ch/fist/ will be invaluable in our mission
22:23:40 <elliott> Gregor: border-top-left-radius: N; -moz-border-radius-topleft: N; -webkit-border-top-left-radius: N;
22:24:14 <elliott> Gregor: If the HUD is in the bottom-right...
22:24:17 <elliott> Then you want to set the topleft.
22:24:31 <elliott> CSS is not based on logic.
22:25:00 <Gregor> And if the HUD is on the top-left, which it is, then I want bottom-right :P
22:28:29 <elliott> Gregor: bottom-right HUD kthx
22:28:34 <elliott> Gregor: it's the most out-of-the-way
22:28:35 <pikhq> Okay, the stock markets are officially motherfucking insane.
22:28:37 <elliott> and yes it *is* noticeable
22:28:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, please keep the HUD where it is
22:28:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, it is better there
22:28:50 <Gregor> elliott: It IS the most out of the way, and yet it is NOT noticeable at all.
22:28:54 <pikhq> 99% of stocks in the US are de jure owned by Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation.
22:28:58 <elliott> Gregor: ...yes it freaking is at 65% black
22:29:32 <pikhq> How one goes about "purchasing" a stock is one has DTCC purchase a stock and you are the beneficiary.
22:30:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: They own most of the stocks world-wide.
22:30:22 <pikhq> They have $23 trillion dollars in assets.
22:30:36 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: would you settle for... iron-on?
22:30:57 <pikhq> If they wanted to screw over the US economy, they could just take their ball and go home.
22:31:02 <pikhq> Sorry, world economy.
22:31:16 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway it makes it almost impossible to get some logos.
22:31:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed. Is it a private company?
22:31:26 <elliott> Gregor: Whereas you can't GET to the bottom-right because it scrolls before you do.
22:31:30 <elliott> i.e. it is by definition out of the way.
22:31:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, bottom right is bad, would break wikipedia iirc
22:31:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, you can't get at the images down there then
22:32:11 <Vorpal> Gregor, I believe elliott has me on ignore, so no point in telling him directly
22:32:18 <Gregor> Vorpal: That would be a lot less broken than it is now on Wikipedia.
22:32:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, it isn't broken there
22:32:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, works perfectly for me
22:32:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, the main page that is
22:32:51 <Gregor> Vorpal: Err, sorry, what I mean is that that brokenness on Wikipedia would be a lot less than the brokenness on other sites.
22:33:04 <Gregor> Vorpal: Since having an image in the top-left is a lot more common than having the image in the absolute bottom-right.
22:33:14 <elliott> Gregor sees the light at last :|
22:33:17 <Gregor> Vorpal: Also, on Wikipedia I think those images are high enough up that they still wouldn't be covered.
22:33:25 <Gregor> elliott: I have not argued at all that it would block anything.
22:33:31 <Gregor> elliott: My argument is thus: No one will ever notice it's there.
22:33:38 <zzo38> Ideas for next version of Enhanced CWEB: * More symbols in WEBMATH font. * New command @" which makes a string typeset with \atquote{...} around it, and allow defining its meaning for CTANGLE. * Allow @. inside of strings: "abc@.def" is indexed as "def" and "abc@.def@.ghi" is indexed as "def...".
22:33:38 <elliott> Gregor: Okay then. Not 65% opacity.
22:33:51 <zzo38> *Any other ideas you may have that might or might not be included.
22:33:53 <elliott> Gregor: It is *impossible not to notice a medium-sized, dark rectangle appearing on a page*.
22:33:54 <catseye> "The first was to hold all paper stock certificates in one centralized location, and automate the process by keeping electronic records of all certificates and securities clearing and settlement (changes of ownership and other securities transactions). The method was first used in Austria by the Vienna Giro and Depository Association in 1872."
22:33:58 <Gregor> elliott: The level of opacity is irrelevant. It could be fully opaque. No one would ever see it.
22:34:08 <catseye> electronic records in 1872
22:34:12 <elliott> Gregor: I mean bottom-right of the window in case that's not clear.
22:34:17 <zzo38> * Better C interpreter.
22:34:27 <elliott> Gregor: I... do you have any fucking idea how good the eye is at noticing things?
22:34:44 <elliott> I am... how the fuck can you believe that the appearance of an almost-black, medium-sized rectangle would go COMPLETELY UNNOTICED FOREVER?
22:34:49 <pikhq> Sorry, their assets are now at $30 trillion.
22:35:08 <Gregor> Having watched people not even notice they had a character or that any of the images got bordered, I doubt that there is any limit to what the human eye can fail to notice.
22:35:36 <elliott> Gregor: Try it and then tell me that. Anyway, is your target market people who are nearly-blind?
22:35:43 <elliott> The character isn't black. (in the literal sense)
22:35:57 <elliott> Yellow blends in very well with white, and the borders are small.
22:36:08 <elliott> In fact it's easy not to notice the HUD now because it's *black on white like most web pages*.
22:36:42 <Gregor> elliott: I already tried ti!
22:36:43 <pikhq> People have set it up so a single entity holds all the stocks, just to make it easier to trade stocks.
22:36:53 <Gregor> I wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't tried it.
22:36:55 <elliott> Gregor: Push it to the server, srsly. I want to see for myself.
22:37:00 <pikhq> The financial "industry" is a bunch of morons.
22:37:31 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation.
22:38:36 <Gregor> I was a third of the way there D-8
22:38:43 <Gregor> elliott: Fine, pushed. Except that you're doubly incapable of thinking there's anything wrong with it regardless of whether there is :P
22:39:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They have the power to create the largest economic crash ever, so *yes*.
22:39:13 <elliott> Gregor: You have... not pushed.
22:39:26 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Alternately, they could merely use their stocks to take over every company.
22:40:10 <elliott> Gregor: Also, please tell me you use "outline: ..." to do the image borders.
22:40:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.dtcc.com/careers/
22:40:16 <Gregor> wtfbbq, I pushed but it didn't do it right ...
22:40:50 <Gregor> elliott: PLEASE TELL ME YOU CAN MANAGE TO NOT BITCH ABOUT ONE FUCKING THING EVER.
22:40:56 <pikhq> In short, we are *fuuucked*.
22:41:02 <Phantom_Hoover> So there is no regulation in place to stop them destroying the world economy?
22:41:02 <elliott> Gregor: You... said you pushed. You did not push.
22:41:15 <Gregor> I was talking about "outline"
22:41:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, my supervillian dreams can finally become reality.
22:41:21 <Gregor> I did push, it didn't go through apparently.
22:41:39 <elliott> Gregor: I was making a suggestion to use outline if you didn't...
22:41:50 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: There is no regulation in place to stop them from running the world, no.
22:41:54 <cheater99> i really really like augur's new layout
22:42:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Because they are the majority stockholder of everything.
22:42:27 <Gregor> elliott: Also, it appears that it was pushed, probably a caching issue. Clear thine cache.
22:42:33 <pikhq> Name a company, THEY OWN IT.
22:43:40 <cheater99> pikhq: largely because the prosperity of my company is unrelated to the economic climate
22:43:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Not that I don't believe you, but this is deeply interesting, and I don't want to have to bug you with questions.
22:44:39 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/__show_article/_a000010-000923.htm , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depository_Trust_%26_Clearing_Corporation , http://www.dtcc.com/downloads/annuals/2010/DTC_Q2_2010.pdf , etc.
22:46:34 <pikhq> The US national *debt* is $13 trillion.
22:46:45 <pikhq> Yes, I do believe DTCC could purchase the US.
22:49:35 <pikhq> The world GDP is $58 trillion. DTCC has nearly half of the world GDP.
22:49:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, they only list their total assets at $3.7 million.
22:50:11 <pikhq> That may be a holding company?
22:50:30 <elliott> pikhq: on Sita: "Who created the film? and as an artist i will never agree to give my creations to anyone to take it and claim it... would you give away your children for anyone to take? would you say its about the children not you as the parent? When you steal you steal.. I have the right to my writings, and my films.... and it's not for anyone else to take...."
22:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Must be, given that the sum of all the numbers can't be more than a couple of tens of billions.
22:50:54 <pikhq> http://www.dtcc.com/downloads/annuals/2009/dtcc_consolidated_2009.pdf
22:50:57 <pikhq> There's the sum total.
22:51:16 <elliott> "Why should I question copyrights...?. I'm a filmmaker, and I spend and sacrifice my time, health, and sanity to create my stories and my films... Why do I want to just give it away and let people use it as theirs????"
22:51:26 <elliott> pikhq: apparently anti-copyright = plagiarist
22:51:34 <pikhq> elliott: Retarded.
22:56:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: To reduce paperwork.
22:56:16 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Before, to trade stocks you had to trade physical stock certificates.
22:56:23 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Now, it never changes hands.
22:56:48 <pikhq> Bankers are morons.
22:56:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile here you just say to DTCC "he can have those stocks" and DTCC pushes a little trolley around in its vault?
22:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm never going to be dissuaded from that picture, so please don't try.
22:57:26 <pikhq> Not even. DTCC just changes who it's held in trust for in their computer...
22:57:39 <pikhq> Though you could argue that there's a *tiny* little trolley shovelling the bits around.
22:57:59 <elliott> pikhq: without DTCC, we wouldn't have all the crazy high-freq trading, would we? :P
22:58:06 <elliott> "I've taken this trolley... and put a ROCKET on the back of it."
22:58:16 <elliott> "OMG WE CAN TRADE LIKE ONE STOCK EVERY THREE SECONDS THIS WAY"
22:58:21 <pikhq> elliott: Not without changing some actual regulations.
22:58:35 <elliott> ^ this should have happened
22:58:44 <pikhq> As it is, there's a bunch of actual paper certificates sitting in DTCC's vaults.
22:58:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, let's both join them and help revolutionise the process!
22:58:59 <pikhq> One per mother-fucking stock.
22:59:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, enormous vaults then?
22:59:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: They've got *40 trillion dollars*. I think they can afford a few enormous vaults.
23:00:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, better idea: change regulations so there doesn't have to be physical papers
23:00:22 <pikhq> After all, they could go out and purchase MOST OF THE PLANET.
23:00:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: This would be smart.
23:00:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: Bankers are morons.
23:01:30 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, wait, you can create stock out of thin air, can't you?
23:01:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: Also fun. If some cracker wanted to be truly nasty, well, they've got a single target.
23:01:40 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: By splitting stocks, yes.
23:01:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, hah, I'm sure they have backups
23:01:58 <Phantom_Hoover> And then DTCC has a little printer that runs off a new certificate?
23:02:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I suppose.
23:02:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, probably a huge printer
23:02:25 -!- tombom__ has joined.
23:02:33 <Phantom_Hoover> See how this is RIPE for the mighty ARM of AUTOMATION!
23:02:59 <Gregor> It's in the bottom-right, what's your prognosis?
23:03:02 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Not even a little bit.
23:03:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no I think it is ARIN for that
23:03:29 <Vorpal> if you don't get the pun I will be sad
23:03:40 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Aw, there's denominations of stock certificates.
23:03:53 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Probably.
23:04:07 <pikhq> Just a smaller army.
23:04:23 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, yes, but if I create a new company, isn't new stock somehow now there?
23:05:03 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: When you create a brand-new company, *you* own it.
23:05:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, this only applies to publicly traded stock right?
23:05:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: DTCC only becomes involved when it becomes publicly traded.
23:05:22 <pikhq> Wherein stocks come into existence.
23:05:32 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, OK, so then the little printer is brought online?
23:05:50 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:06:36 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, also, if I split a stock and then trade half of it with someone else, that half still needs to be moved, yes?
23:07:13 <pikhq> *Companies* split the stock every now and then.
23:07:30 <pikhq> Splitting the stock is something that happens to all the stock of the company at once.
23:07:49 <pikhq> This is not so much economics as it is the crazy game run by bankers.
23:08:18 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, but there still must be a little printer far under DTCC which prints out new stocks.
23:09:24 <Phantom_Hoover> And there must be some system to move these stocks around.
23:09:44 <pikhq> Not really. File them once and forget them.
23:09:50 <Phantom_Hoover> If only because otherwise the little printer will basically be under a huge pile of stocks that is starting to crystallise.
23:12:46 * Gregor proceeds to change the position of the scoreboard again since elliott is unresponsive and he hates having it in the bottom-right.
23:13:10 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, one last time, there is absolutely no regulation of note acting on DTCC?
23:13:36 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: None.
23:14:24 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Except that as a member of the Federal Reserve, they need to take out insurance on any bank deposits made with them. (they don't offer bank accounts) :P
23:16:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Other than the fact that the US economy crashing taking the rest with it, of course.
23:17:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that other places don't have this exact strain of insanity.
23:17:25 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They perform the same function in most of the world stock markets.
23:17:51 <Phantom_Hoover> So not only do they control the US economy, but most of the world economy too?
23:20:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, do you give them a cut to push the trolley around?
23:23:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the stocks they are holding, so surely they can't just spend it with no other economic consequences?
23:24:01 -!- tombom__ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:25:37 <pikhq> In their SEC filing they should have listed the cash or cash equivalent.
23:25:47 <pikhq> *That* is their assets that are liquid.
23:26:10 <pikhq> (i.e. what they could go out and blow in a orgy of spending right this instant)
23:27:44 <Vorpal> does all that money exist as physical money?
23:27:53 <pikhq> http://www.dtcc.com/downloads/annuals/2009/dtcc_consolidated_2009.pdf This?
23:28:02 <catseye> love the scientific notation on these figures, btw
23:28:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: It exists as stocks that could be traded.
23:28:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: That is to say, it is definitely considered part of the money supply.
23:29:39 <pikhq> As part of the M2 -- that is, as part of what is generally considered "money in circulation".
23:30:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: $4e13, you mean.
23:30:27 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, no, that's the total assets from various other sources.
23:31:03 <Phantom_Hoover> dtcc_consolidated_2009.pdf is where I got the $4e10 from.
23:31:48 <Gregor> How does Wikipedia break this X_X
23:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover> According to that Ming the whatever article you linked to, there's another company called something & co. which is on the stock certificates.
23:32:40 <pikhq> A subsidiary of DTCC.
23:34:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:35:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume they have the $3e13 total assets, but I could well be wrong.
23:36:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:36:31 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Stocks held by DTC are kept in the name of its partnership nominee, Cede & Co.]]
23:37:46 * Gregor sobs at Wikipedia's inability to set my BG ...
23:38:24 <elliott> Gregor: Can you put it back so I have a chance to check it? :P
23:38:34 <elliott> Also, set the "background" by just overlaying the entire screen.
23:38:40 -!- Harpyon has joined.
23:39:05 <Gregor> That's ... lame. CSS background should work.
23:39:06 <ais523> elliott: can you think of a name for the subset of concatenative languages where the main form of flow control is manipulating code as data on a stack?
23:39:15 <Gregor> Also, that element would just have to use CSS background itself.
23:39:16 <elliott> Gregor: It also goes over all the elements, which is fun
23:39:23 <ais523> Gregor: perhaps it's the frame-breaking code, or something like that?
23:39:38 <elliott> Gregor: * { background: foo !important }
23:40:48 <Gregor> elliott: Well, yes, setting the background on everything will in fact give it a background color :P
23:41:00 <elliott> also too self-plugging, for ais523 :P
23:41:12 <elliott> it requires knowledge of underload
23:41:18 <Gregor> elliott: YOU'RE WINNER already DOOOOS that.
23:41:23 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, surely there are some agreements, even unspoken or non-legally-binding ones, governing DTCC.
23:41:31 <quintopia> "rogue-likes" rquires knowledge of rogue
23:41:36 <elliott> <quintopia> AESTHETICS DON'T MATTER WE SHOULD ALL TALK IN C
23:41:38 <quintopia> humans communicate by metaphor and comparison
23:41:46 <Gregor> elliott: When you win, it just adds * { background: url(...) !important; } to your CSS.
23:41:58 <elliott> Gregor: Oh. So you DO have the same awesome idea as me.
23:42:05 <elliott> Gregor: I was commenting more on "DOOOOS" :P
23:42:37 <quintopia> if wikipedia won't work, we should DoS it
23:43:07 <elliott> Gregor: Anyhow totally put the HUD back for my opinioning.
23:43:29 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, aren't there even contracts somewhere along the line
23:44:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pikhq: lol
23:44:24 <elliott> i have a feeling pikhq is either exaggerating slightly due to being misinformed somehow
23:44:30 <Gregor> elliott: I have. And it's pushed. If you say it isn't pushed, you get /ignore. Learn to clear your cache.
23:44:43 <elliott> Gregor: You said you put it back.
23:44:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it does seem *way* too crazy to be that true...
23:44:51 <elliott> * Gregor proceeds to change the position of the scoreboard again since elliott is unresponsive and he hates having it in the bottom-right.
23:44:55 <elliott> I read my scrollback when I return.
23:44:57 <Gregor> elliott: I /just/ put it back again.
23:45:00 <Gregor> Like, three seconds ago.
23:45:06 <Gregor> In the bottom-right that is.
23:45:52 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, that will totally work if you increase the font size.
23:46:04 <elliott> Just to make the whole thing bigger.
23:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, do you actually have positive confirmation for the complete unregulatedness of DTCC?
23:46:27 <zzo38> Do you realize how much simpler internationalization.wi is over other programs such as GNU gettext?
23:46:30 <Gregor> That is SUCH AN ANNOYING PLACE for it to be. Even knowing it's there, that's almost always super-distant from where I want my eyes to be.
23:46:38 <elliott> Gregor: Do it in the top-right then.
23:46:51 <Gregor> Top-right I can live with.
23:46:58 <elliott> Gregor: That's much less irritating than top-left and anyway most games use top-right.
23:47:08 <elliott> Gregor: oh man on twitter you get these little evil birds
23:47:50 <Gregor> OH GOD KILL THE BIRDS OH GOD WHYYYY
23:48:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh I thought it was a reference to the movie "The Birds"
23:49:01 <Gregor> elliott: Sorry, yes. I got twat.
23:49:15 <elliott> Gregor: oh lovely, the translucency of the HUD means that the trophy gets shown there too
23:49:31 <Gregor> Vorpal: Uhh, twitter.com ...
23:49:41 <Gregor> elliott: The trophy thing is SO UGLY it has to stay forever :P
23:49:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, the page where you got twat
23:49:52 <elliott> Gregor: omg omg make it flash
23:49:54 <Gregor> Vorpal: There. With WebSplat :P
23:49:58 <elliott> Gregor: set the background to that and then remove it
23:50:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, presumably someone linked websplat in a twat?
23:50:10 <elliott> Gregor: have it remove it from random elements at random times
23:50:16 <Gregor> Vorpal: No, I just got killed by a Twitter bird :P
23:50:17 <elliott> so that it just... vomits trophies all over the place
23:50:25 <Gregor> Vorpal: That's what I meant by "twittered"
23:50:37 <elliott> ais523: I'm bad at names, anyway.
23:50:40 <zzo38> Most games use top-right? OK. However, when I make a game I assign an entire row or column to the status information?
23:50:59 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Generic Platform Killemup Game?
23:51:10 <elliott> Generic Platform Killemup Game ON WHEELS
23:51:31 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: http://codu.org/websplat/
23:51:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, bookmarklet is broken?
23:51:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's played on web pages.
23:51:42 <Vorpal> Gregor, did you change something recently
23:51:46 <Gregor> Vorpal: Lots of things.
23:52:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Like that it's written entirely in upside-down characters or something similarly zany.
23:52:00 <Gregor> Vorpal: Try clearing your cache, I've found that the caches are WAY too greedy.
23:52:09 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: It's far more zany than that :P
23:52:23 <elliott> Gregor: Mad props for this btw.
23:52:23 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Just play it. Discover the joy. TASTE THE RAINBOW.
23:52:35 <elliott> Gregor: OMG I'M GOING TO TRY IT ON GMAIL HAHAHAHA
23:52:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, works on w3.org but not on twitter.com
23:52:56 <elliott> lol i just drop to the bottom
23:52:59 <elliott> because gmail's entirely in a frame or something
23:53:03 <Gregor> Vorpal: That's ... bizarre.
23:53:18 <Gregor> Dang it, killed by a Spamusercake.
23:54:29 <elliott> Gregor: It fails at frames. And EVERYONE USES FRAMES.
23:54:52 <Gregor> elliott: Pretty sure SOP would kill me there anyway :P
23:54:59 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: WHY YES. YES IT IS. X-P
23:55:06 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.twogroove.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/a_winner_is_you_1024.jpg
23:55:16 <elliott> Gregor: Please use either YOU'RE WINNER or this with 1/2 probability.
23:56:19 <Gregor> elliott: Whoah, where is that from?
23:56:42 <Gregor> elliott: Wish that wasn't a JPEG :(
23:56:44 <elliott> Gregor: Pro Wrestling on the NES.
23:56:47 <elliott> Gregor: You can find another.
23:56:49 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=a+winner+is+you&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=DmjDTMOPGNW7jAesr8S5BQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQsAQwAA&biw=1020&bih=582
23:56:55 <elliott> Gregor: It's horribly famous.
23:57:27 <elliott> Gregor: authoritative info http://encyclopediadramatica.com/A_winner_is_you
23:57:47 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover doesn't like to read :P
23:57:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: down falls below the floor if you want
23:57:57 <elliott> down-jump can be useful to jump on top of things
23:58:13 <Gregor> elliott: I'm in JPEG hell why are they all JPEGs oh god NOOOO
23:58:25 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: You can duck to drop through things, and double-jump to jump through things.
23:58:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: DTCC-held stocks have the 'owner' listed as a beneficiary.
23:58:56 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yup :P
23:59:19 <elliott> Gregor: append "filetype:png"
23:59:30 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.phlashers.com/images/aWinner.gif
23:59:32 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: This is the same legal infrastructure as is used for trust funds. It's all not in the beneficiary's name, but it's technically operated for the sake of the beneficiary.
23:59:51 <Gregor> elliott: Aha, that's perfect though, hoopla
00:00:05 <elliott> Gregor: Another character: http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/11/12/awinnerisyou.png
00:00:21 <Gregor> elliott: I'll just go with one character I think :P
00:00:38 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Very very few.
00:01:32 <elliott> Gregor: For bonus points, make all of them switch to the other at a random interval (randomised for each element).
00:01:34 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It means that in some sense the beneficiary is entitled to the financial benefits from DTCC.
00:01:38 <elliott> Gregor: You win! You win EPILEPSY!
00:01:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: In effect, the beneficiary is entitled to dividends.
00:02:06 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, no winning seizures :P
00:02:16 <elliott> Gregor: OMG WAIT BETTER IDEA
00:02:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Stocks pay out dividends.
00:02:20 <elliott> Gregor: Make all elements on the page move about.
00:02:26 <pikhq> At least, some do.
00:02:34 <elliott> Great job, hero! You won! The universe is falling apart.
00:03:25 <Gregor> elliott: Hmmm, this image doesn't work as well as the trophy. The trophy has the nice (dis)advantage that it's visible in the upper-left, so it even messes with small elements.
00:03:29 <Gregor> elliott: This is just black in the upper-left :(
00:03:37 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And if DTCC actually sold off their stocks, there'd probably be a major legal fight if the beneficiary didn't get some benefit from the sale.
00:03:41 <elliott> Gregor: With 1/2 probability on every element.
00:03:51 <elliott> YOU'RE WINNER! A WINNER IS YOU! YOU'RE WINNER!
00:03:52 <Gregor> elliott: OHHH, on every ELEMENT.
00:03:55 <pikhq> Though this legal fight wouldn't matter because the world economy would collapse.
00:04:04 <Gregor> elliott: That's actually kind of a pain, since I just used a CSS * :P
00:04:04 <pikhq> Mother-fucking collapse.
00:04:08 <Gregor> But OK, i can do that.
00:04:15 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, so they can't just buy Germany if they want some sausages?
00:04:35 <pikhq> They'd just have to hand out some cash to people.
00:04:44 <pikhq> Oh, without the sausage industry collapsing?
00:04:48 <pikhq> Yeah, that'd probably collapse.
00:05:08 <pikhq> As would the entire stock market when they realise that it's all a fucking casino game and DTCC is the house.
00:06:08 <elliott> pikhq: we so need to do this
00:06:14 <Gregor> elliott: Basically whichever one document.body gets wins :(
00:06:23 <Gregor> Well, maybe that's only on this test page ... lesse.
00:06:32 <elliott> Gregor: On pages with more elements it'll be crazy.
00:07:08 <elliott> pikhq: use the DTCC to crash the economy
00:07:11 * Gregor tries it on en.wikipedia.org
00:07:18 * catseye plays WebSplat on http://www.dtcc.com/
00:07:22 <elliott> buy up as much important, expensive shit as we can
00:07:27 <elliott> until we've used all our money
00:07:35 <elliott> "Fuck you guys no stocks lol"
00:07:40 <elliott> Gregor: Yes to the multi-background?
00:07:47 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:07:59 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, however I'm going to ruin it by adding transparency to "A WINNER IS YOU" and making the text black.
00:08:03 <Gregor> To get more horrible overlap.
00:08:05 <pikhq> elliott: It's astounding how fragile everything is.
00:08:07 <Gregor> (The trophy has transparency)
00:08:16 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, BTW. Apparently DTCC's vaults are in Manhattan.
00:08:20 -!- myndzi has joined.
00:08:29 <catseye> man, if the images weren't outlined, this would be hard -- a random half of their headings are actually images.
00:08:31 <elliott> Gregor: wait wait, make it black but with a certain % of alpha :D
00:08:33 <pikhq> elliott: One crazy bastard with a nuke and all the companies stop existing.
00:08:42 <elliott> pikhq: but we could do that from within
00:08:46 <elliott> pikhq: do all that stuff, and then just burn our vault
00:08:58 <elliott> Gregor: make it like 50% opaque
00:09:16 <Gregor> It'll be crazier perfectly transparent...
00:10:15 <elliott> catseye: where's the last image
00:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but when the economy collapses, who will invent the Singularity?
00:11:14 <fizzie> "Burn the vault, or make it like 50% opaque" is how I parsed that.
00:11:39 <elliott> catseye: probably down that scrollable pane
00:11:48 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.dtcc.com/ unsolvable kthx :P
00:12:53 <elliott> Gregor: this as multiplayer would be amazing
00:13:09 <Gregor> With transparency, this = best win screen ever.
00:13:32 <pikhq> Seems that flash crashes have become a regular fixture of the stock market now...
00:14:02 <pikhq> Shit is going to be *baaaad* soon...
00:14:33 -!- augur has joined.
00:14:53 <Gregor> elliott: Observe the new win screen!
00:15:00 <elliott> Gregor: i'm trying to; i have to win first!
00:15:32 <elliott> Gregor: you know, you could give <html> and <body> different backgrounds
00:15:53 <elliott> make <html> and <body> always the two images (which is which doesn't matter; randomise it)
00:15:58 <elliott> then do the 1/2 chance for all the other elements
00:16:42 <catseye> class SharedLineOrientedBuffer # aka a SLOB!
00:16:46 <elliott> Gregor: LOL the esolangs wiki logo became two of the guy
00:16:53 <elliott> catseye: what are you doing now :P
00:16:56 <Gregor> I died on the win screen because I couldn't tell what the hell was going on X-D
00:17:03 <catseye> elliott: just trying to improve catbus
00:17:21 <elliott> catseye: that name... yeah... no
00:17:39 <catseye> but that's exactly what it is! well, ok
00:18:52 <Gregor> Let's see how well this works on my phone now :P
00:20:58 <quintopia> Gregor: AAAAAGGGHHHHHHH THAT IS AWFUL WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT
00:21:13 <elliott> Gregor: websplat + http://mrdoob.com/projects/chromeexperiments/google_gravity/
00:21:20 <elliott> <quintopia> Gregor: AAAAAGGGHHHHHHH THAT IS AWFUL WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT
00:22:37 -!- sftp_ has joined.
00:22:57 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:23:03 <Gregor> The browser sends crazy resize events, so it thinks you're cheating :(
00:23:05 <catseye> elliott: class BufferMatic :)
00:23:18 <quintopia> elliott: i already suggested the collapsing page game, but gegor whined about it being too hardto rotate things and shit like that
00:23:25 <elliott> Gregor: instant death on what
00:23:50 <elliott> quintopia: "Damn those programmers! Can't they just stop whining and implement my vision???"
00:24:01 <quintopia> elliott: yes, it's sadly true, but DAMN IF THAT GAME WOULDN'T BE AWESOME
00:26:18 * pikhq concludes that the only reason the world economy is still running is that people don't know that it's completely and utterly broken. Fuuuck.
00:27:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, so basically I cannot under any circumstances tell people this?
00:27:20 -!- augur has joined.
00:27:25 * quintopia concludes that it's not broken because the singularity has already happened and the intelligence hidden in the networks of the world is doing its best to hold things together until it can construct the perfect society
00:27:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it's still pretty solidly fucked.
00:27:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: good thing we're not logged.
00:27:46 <elliott> Gregor: When you lose, tile a 2x scaled version of this: http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/4/4a/Bstarfail.png
00:27:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: All it takes for the stock market to crash right now is a race condition.
00:28:09 <augur> YOUR SKILL IS NOT ENOUGH SEE YOU NEXT TIME BYE BYE
00:28:16 <pikhq> This happens a few times each month for individual stocks now.
00:29:17 <Phantom_Hoover> A does B then C, but gets stopped before C, then A' does B' and C', then A does C not realising that B' and C' have been done
00:30:27 <augur> quintopia: oh if only we were succeeding in holding things together :(
00:30:39 <pikhq> Stock trader bot A does trades B then C, but gets stopped before C, then stock trader bot A' does trades B' and C', then A does C.
00:31:03 -!- olsner has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:31:48 <pikhq> And then everything reacts and the stock goes on a freakish crash or rise before things stabilise.
00:33:52 <elliott> pikhq: And then, if you're not a big corporation, you get put in jail for life for terrorism.
00:36:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder where that 30 trillion figure actually comes from...
00:37:21 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, even the WP article gives that as $3e10, not $3e13.
00:38:08 <catseye> elliott: have you read the original netcat C source, btw? I assume yes
00:38:23 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: That's odd.
00:38:30 <elliott> catseye: not all in one go but i've skimmed through all of it
00:38:35 <catseye> elliott: http://www.mail-archive.com/freebsd-questions@freebsd.org/msg42775.html
00:38:40 <elliott> catseye: and made it compile on linux :P
00:38:44 <catseye> that was my reaction to it :)
00:38:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, that's the total assets of DTCC, not the consolidated report on the holdings of them and their subsidiaries.
00:39:00 <catseye> some great comments in there, iirc
00:39:08 <elliott> catseye: he likes calling his structures and arguments "poop"
00:39:11 <elliott> which i support completely
00:39:15 <elliott> catseye: 2003 you sounds boring :P
00:39:25 <pikhq> http://www.dtcc.com/downloads/annuals/2009/dtcc_consolidated_2009.pdf
00:40:02 <zzo38> Now rewrite netcat in Enhanced CWEB and without GNU long options
00:40:17 <zzo38> And then compile it for the GameBoy
00:40:21 <Phantom_Hoover> The figures are all in thousands of dollars for the assets.
00:40:45 <pikhq> Okay, then I don't know where the trillion number is coming from.
00:40:49 <zzo38> (Just joking about the GameBoy)
00:41:39 <pikhq> Though it almost certainly should have that much, due to being the stock holder for nearly everything.
00:42:24 <Vorpal> zzo38, verify it formally!
00:42:29 <Vorpal> that is fun to do I found
00:42:38 <Vorpal> well okay would be horrible for socket code
00:42:38 <zzo38> Vorpal: Verify what formally?
00:42:42 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, well, you must admit, it still seems way too ludicrous to be completely true.
00:42:47 <Vorpal> zzo38, the rewritten netcat
00:42:55 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Buut they actually *do* hold all the stocks.
00:43:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Which makes it *not ludicrous at all*.
00:43:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, how do you verify that kind of thing formally?
00:43:06 <zzo38> Verify it using what?
00:43:14 -!- olsner has joined.
00:43:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's a Federal Reserve regulation.
00:43:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, coding in C? Frama-c is good then
00:43:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Even when this starts making some sense /it still makes no sense/.
00:43:46 <Vorpal> as for how, that is trickier
00:43:53 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The only thing that makes no sense here is how could people be this fucking *stupid*.
00:43:54 <Vorpal> you have to take standard library as axioms
00:44:03 <Vorpal> and find a set of properties you want to prove
00:44:16 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, and how every share ever is worth only 30 billion dollars.
00:44:20 <Vorpal> such as "never reads invalid memory" or "always terminates" or whatever
00:44:37 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'm suspecting they're not having to list shares as assets.
00:44:50 <zzo38> Do you know if Frama-C is usable with things such as Enhanced CWEB?
00:45:11 <Vorpal> zzo38, no clue, used it for straight C code that didn't do IO. And it is a lot of work anyway.
00:45:15 <zzo38> Can it display the line numbers in its error messages according to #line directives?
00:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, that would seem the only even vaguely sane explanation, other than that they don't actually own the shares at all.
00:45:46 <Vorpal> zzo38, I used it on plain old C code, where it did a good job
00:46:09 <elliott> 16:40:02 <zzo38> Now rewrite netcat in Enhanced CWEB and without GNU long options
00:46:12 <elliott> netcat doesn't use gnu long options.
00:46:46 <Vorpal> nothing wrong with long options apart from that they are not standard
00:48:17 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, FWIW, WP lists their total equity as $2e8, which is *peanuts* in finance.
00:50:45 <Phantom_Hoover> http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/__show_article/_a000010-000923.htm is the source of the tens of trillions in figures.
00:51:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, I don't like long options. Is other people also don't like long options?
00:52:07 <Phantom_Hoover> They do process over a quadrillion dollars per year, though.
00:52:38 <Vorpal> zzo38, ... I can't parse "Is other people also don't like long options?"
00:53:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Their annual report for 2009 has $3e13 as the value of securities held in custody.
00:53:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, because it seems to be incorrect English?
00:53:22 <Vorpal> zzo38, elliott is correct: netcat does not use getopt_long
00:53:32 <Vorpal> zzo38, GNU netcat does, but that is not the original netcat
00:53:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Found it. It's on page 14.
00:54:35 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, of the consolidated statement or the annual report?
00:54:50 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Erm, wait, that's not it. But yeah, consolidated.
00:55:09 <pikhq> Page *9* has the value from stocks.
00:55:49 <zzo38> Vorpal: Maybe it is incorrect but it should be OK to read, isn't it? I believe you it doesn't use getopt_long but GNU netcat does. But still I don't like GNU long options. But many GNU programs are too much complicated more than it should be.
00:56:01 <pikhq> "$40,232,000 [...] representing deposits received from participants to facilitate their compliance with customer protection rules of the SEC."
00:56:07 <pikhq> ... No, that's not it.
00:56:11 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I hate PDFs in general.
00:56:14 <pikhq> This is hard to parse.
00:56:15 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, the longest number I see on that page is 10 digits long.
00:56:47 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, this is very hard to find.
00:57:22 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I suspect because "securities held in custody" \notin "assets".
00:58:16 <zzo38> Just one example of GNU program too much complicated more than it should be, is that gettext is very large and internationalization.wi (a program for a similar purpose to gettext) is much smaller and more efficiently.
00:58:20 <Vorpal> zzo38, well *shrug* I was unable to parse that sentence above
00:59:24 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, so the world economy isn't quite as insane as we thought.
00:59:34 <zzo38> Vorpal: But do you agree that a lot of GNU software packages are much larger and complicated than it should be?
00:59:50 <Phantom_Hoover> In that they can't do whatever they damn well please with $3e13 worth of shares.
01:00:24 <Vorpal> freebsd userland has a nice balance I feel
01:00:52 <Vorpal> between usability and minimalism
01:01:16 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB118359867562957720-5Yb1Y_mpcl9a2nKbc0IaV0tDHyk_20070712.html This *claims* that the DTCC claims $36 trillion in securities.
01:01:32 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'm just having trouble finding better information.
01:02:14 <zzo38> Also some (not all) of the programs I have written can be used instead of some (but not all) of the other GNU program.
01:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, again, I suspect this all stems from a mixup from the DTCC's annual report figures.
01:02:38 <zzo38> Yet, also, some software also has important features missing too, or bugs, or whatever.
01:02:54 <elliott> zzo38: you don't have to shout
01:02:58 <elliott> " agree with you. YOU SHOULD NOT CHANGE THE BYTEPUSHER SPEC. YOU SHOULD NOT CHANGE THE BYTEPUSHER SPEC. YOU SHOULD NOT CHANGE THE BYTEPUSHER SPEC."
01:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course they want you to mislead yourself into thinking they have half the world's GDP in assets; they are, after all, out to get money.
01:03:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's debatable, but it still does them no harm.
01:03:42 <zzo38> elliott: I wrote it in uppercase three times simply because of like other comment.
01:04:48 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHH it'soneo'clock/me→sleep
01:05:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you are such a fucking lightweight.
01:05:46 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/23/business/media/23williams.html?_r=2&ref=business <-- my guy doesn't even appear halp
01:07:59 <pikhq> "Lastly, DTCC’s depository
01:08:01 <pikhq> is the largest securities depository in the world, providing custody and asset servicing for
01:08:03 <pikhq> 3.5 million securities issues from the United States and 110 other countries and territories
01:08:06 <pikhq> valued at $30 trillion.
01:08:22 <zzo38> Here is the copy of internationalization.wi file: http://sprunge.us/MbML Now you can see that it is clearly much more smaller and more efficient than GNU gettext?
01:08:23 <Gregor> elliott: Wowwtf, somehow it managed to put things in front of my image with z-index 1,000,000 ...
01:08:45 <elliott> zzo38: I can clearly not see it is more efficient; I have no idea how GNU gettext is implemented.
01:08:48 <elliott> And more code != more efficient.
01:08:49 <pikhq> -- Larry E. Thompson, General Counsel for DTCC, before the Subcommittee on Capital Markets, Insurance, and Government Sponsored Enterprises. June 9 2009.
01:08:59 <pikhq> Hearing on "Effective Regulation of the Over-the-Counter Derivatives Markets”
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01:09:19 <Gregor> body > img {display:none;}
01:09:20 <Gregor> WHO PUTS THIS IN THEIR CSS
01:09:37 <zzo38> elliott: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gettext.git/tree/
01:09:47 <Gregor> http://graphics8.nytimes.com/css/0.1/screen/common/global.css <-- observe the lunacy
01:10:02 <elliott> zzo38: I'm not about to read the entire GNU gettext implementation.
01:10:11 <elliott> Gregor: But, but Khoi Vinh.
01:10:12 <pikhq> http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/financialsvcs_dem/larry_thompson.pdf
01:10:21 <elliott> Admittedly he probably didn't write that CSS.
01:10:27 <pikhq> I've got a citation and it's under threat of perjury!
01:11:06 <Gregor> elliott: That's ... really annoying. Fixable, but WTFWTFWTF.
01:11:14 <Gregor> It's the kind of corner case I really don't want X-D
01:11:30 <Gregor> Corner case: Some lunatic decided to set all images to display:none
01:12:58 <zzo38> elliott: Even if you just look through a few of the directories and see how many lines are in some of the files, look at the documentation of how many things are required to install it, and compare with my program, you will see that my program should work better.
01:13:09 <elliott> zzo38: I don't see that it is more efficient.
01:13:14 <elliott> Lots and lots of code goes to making things run fast.
01:15:10 <zzo38> elliott: In my program, there is no gettext() call or anything like that, all internationalized strings are accessed through an array with a constant index, so no function calls are needed.
01:15:24 <elliott> zzo38: And it also can't switch language at runtime.
01:15:32 <elliott> Which is kind of sort of entirely a deal breaker.
01:15:38 <Vorpal> from what I remember, GNU gettext is actually quite sane
01:15:50 <pikhq> zzo38: That defeats the whole purpose of gettext...
01:16:02 <zzo38> When you type something like intl("Hello, World!") it will compile it to something like intl_strings[0]
01:16:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah. It fetches a translated string from a message file, and that's it. Quite reasonable.
01:16:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, the API is a quite sane as well
01:16:22 <elliott> To initialise intl_strings at startup?
01:16:35 <zzo38> elliott: And my program can switch language at runtime, using the load_language_file() function.
01:16:49 <elliott> Oh, you do it the boring way.
01:16:54 <elliott> zzo38: wait, how does it compile intl("string") to that?
01:16:55 <zzo38> It doesn't use dlopen but perhaps I can change that if necessary
01:17:21 <pikhq> zzo38: Oh, so you are essentially... Reïmplementing GNU gettext the precise same way.
01:17:27 <zzo38> Read the program. It is only 190 lines long
01:17:43 <zzo38> That will show you how it compiles intl("string") into that.
01:18:28 <elliott> zzo38: Can I have a PDF version? I don't have Enhanced CWEB and I can't really read the raw source, since I haven't used it before.
01:18:51 <zzo38> Simply type @i internationalization.wi into your program, and it will generate "default.lang" and do everything else at compile time.
01:18:59 <zzo38> elliott: OK. I will generate a PDF for you now
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01:19:24 <zzo38> Just wait one minute.
01:19:35 <Vorpal> that is a long time for generating a pdf
01:20:54 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/misc/intl.pdf
01:21:59 <elliott> zzo38: i don't think C guarantees "internationalization.h" will work
01:22:05 <elliott> pikhq: isn't there some uniqueness limit to header names?
01:23:23 <zzo38> Vorpal: That means it is octal number
01:23:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, not in standard C
01:23:38 <Vorpal> which makes this harder to read
01:23:58 <zzo38> elliott: Are you sure it won't work?
01:23:58 <pikhq> elliott: Probably.
01:24:08 <elliott> zzo38: I don't think it's guaranteed to work. Read the C standard, I guess.
01:24:26 <zzo38> Vorpal: It is meant to be typeset as a book, it is not meant to be typeset as a C code.
01:24:53 <elliott> ais523: "intl$()" -- what is $ here?
01:25:03 <Vorpal> zzo38, well, personally I would find it easier to read C code if it looked like C code would look in my emacs session!
01:25:14 <zzo38> The $ is a part of the identifier.
01:25:21 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you asking ais523
01:25:24 <elliott> zzo38: is that valid in C?
01:25:39 <Vorpal> elliott, no it isn't afaik
01:26:05 <zzo38> elliott: A dollar sign is valid part of the identifier on some platforms. However, since it is inside of a @{ ... @} block, it doesn't need to be valid on the platform you are compiling on, it only needs to be valid in the C interpreter used with Enhanced CWEB.
01:26:27 <elliott> So where's the actual intl macro? Or is that "intl$"?
01:26:40 <zzo38> Vorpal: If you want to see the C codes, look at the http://sprunge.us/MbML file.
01:27:02 <Vorpal> zzo38, ... that isn't C
01:27:13 <elliott> zzo38: So is intl$ the intl macro?
01:27:16 <Vorpal> zzo38, that is ecweb which I can't read
01:27:22 <zzo38> elliott: The intl$() function programs what Enhanced CWEB will do when the identifier "intl" is processed.
01:27:53 <Vorpal> zzo38, I want to see C as it would be sent to the C preprocessor of the C compiler
01:27:53 <zzo38> Vorpal: The file includes C codes in some parts.
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01:28:44 <zzo38> Vorpal: The codes inside of @{ ... @} are never sent to the C compiler. Also, the codes sent to the C compiler are not indented and have no explanations.
01:29:18 <Vorpal> zzo38, so... this intel stuff needs the program to be processed with cweb to work?
01:29:25 <Vorpal> it can't work on plain old C code?
01:30:39 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, it does need the program to be processed with Enhanced CWEB to work. (If you want, it is possible to write a Enhanced CWEB file in a linear form without explanations if you find it necessary, but doing this would be no good.)
01:31:08 <Vorpal> zzo38, so it is basically useless to most people compared to gettext...
01:31:17 <Vorpal> zzo38, it won't work for C++ for example
01:31:58 <zzo38> Vorpal: It will work with C++. Enhanced CWEB can be used with C++ as well, it is not limited to only C.
01:32:26 <Vorpal> zzo38, still it seems quite a pain compared to plain old gettext
01:32:47 <zzo38> (You can use it with C++ by using the file called "_cplusplus.wi")
01:34:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, gettext has bindings for lots of other languages like python and perl
01:34:19 <Vorpal> zzo38, your stuff won't work with those
01:34:26 <Vorpal> zzo38, they use wrap the C API there
01:34:36 <Vorpal> your stuff will not be possible to wrap like that
01:34:49 <quintopia> In C, does ++awesome++ set awesome to awesome+2 and return awesome+1?
01:35:03 <zzo38> Vorpal: That is OK, you can have different opinion, is OK. But remember that even GNU gettext requires a bunch of other programs to cause it to work, but I suppose GNU gettext can be used for unliterate programming. (Or even non-C programs)
01:35:43 <Vorpal> zzo38, yes the message extracting code is easy enough to extend to new languages
01:35:45 <quintopia> Vorpal: apparently the pre++ gets associated first
01:35:57 <pikhq> quintopia: No sequence point, though.
01:36:00 <Vorpal> quintopia, *the behaviour of that code is undefined*
01:36:30 <pikhq> quintopia: It would be valid for the compiler to destroy the universe.
01:37:03 <Vorpal> a better solution would be to error out IMO
01:37:13 <quintopia> Vorpal: if the post++ were associated first, then it would be ++(awesome++), and the part in brackets is a valid rvalue, right? so what's the sequence point issue?
01:37:30 <Vorpal> quintopia, ++(awesome++) *IS ALSO UNDEFINED*
01:37:31 <zzo38> You are correct my program will not be possible to wrap like that. You can do things such as write a similar program that is *designed* for other program languages. (I am not sure exactly how except in Forth, however)
01:37:39 <Vorpal> quintopia, you have no sequence point in between!
01:37:41 <pikhq> quintopia: Two modifications of a variable with no sequence point between them is undefined behavior.
01:37:55 <pikhq> quintopia: And as such, it would be valid for the compiler to do anything at all.
01:39:19 <Vorpal> quintopia, I'll let pikhq do the explaining
01:40:05 <pikhq> quintopia: C allows for a class of behavior called "undefined behavior". When the behavior of any particular operation in C is undefined, it is entirely valid for a conforming implementation to do *anything*.
01:40:21 <pikhq> quintopia: This is primarily for the purpose of allowing fast implementations.
01:40:24 <Gregor> D'awwwww, Bing's infamous background image isn't an <img> :P
01:40:49 <quintopia> pikhq: gcc throws an error, but it doesn't explain any of this. thanks for your help.
01:40:53 <pikhq> quintopia: It also allows for implementations to completely *ignore* bizarre edge cases of an architecture.
01:41:30 <pikhq> This is why, for instance, dereferencing NULL on Linux crashes but gets you random memory on DOS.
01:43:47 <Vorpal> quintopia, as to when it comes to defining what _exactly_ a sequence point is, I defer to the C standard. I have a "gut feeling" but I don't remember the exact wording. If/when I need that I just go check the C standard
01:44:17 <Vorpal> interestingly the comma operator counts as one
01:44:23 <Vorpal> with basically no other effect
01:44:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, when did you last use the comma operator?
01:44:53 <Vorpal> I only think I used it once or twice
01:45:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: Last time I raped the C compiler into submission.
01:45:24 <pikhq> Like a year ago, I think.
01:45:39 <Vorpal> do you remember for what?
01:45:54 <Vorpal> I mean, it is one of those features you almost never use.
01:48:39 <quintopia> someone needs to come up with a programming language based on cuil theory
01:49:31 <Vorpal> quintopia, what is cuil theory?
01:50:26 <zzo38> I have used comma operator with 'for'
01:50:50 <quintopia> it's a crazy piece of work coming from reddit
01:52:17 <zzo38> Cuils are commutative
01:52:27 <zzo38> (in multiplication)
01:52:40 <zzo38> At least, is what it says there.
01:56:20 <quintopia> multiplication has no semantic meaning as yet
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01:58:23 <pikhq> Oh, wonderful. Republicans are running ads urging Latino voters to not vote. Classy.
01:58:39 <pikhq> " front group called Latinos for Reform is running a 60-second advertisement on Nevada TV that urges Latinos not to vote in the upcoming mid-term election, saying it is the way to punish Democrats for failing to enact immigration reform within the first years of Barack Obama's presidency."
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01:59:11 <pikhq> Latinos for Reform is, as one might expect, funded by the RNC.
02:05:39 <Gregor> Punish them by assuring the election of people who can more effectively kick you out :P
02:08:33 <zzo38> Can you have (pi/2-2i) cuil?
02:10:25 <zzo38> O, that's how it works. OK
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02:11:30 <quintopia> yeah, as yet, there is no such thing as imaginary cuil
02:11:52 <quintopia> indeed, since cuil is sort of a measure of realness or imaginariness...
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02:18:30 <zzo38> If interrobang indicates units, then multiplication would make square cuil. (But, it doesn't seem to be units, or anything else consistently mathematically as far as I can tell from documentation and forums.)
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02:19:23 <zzo38> Also you can't add or multiply degrees Celsius, that doesn't make sense.
02:22:02 <Gregor> Mr. Profiler says: 17% of my time is spent by sprites deciding whether they're on screen or not.
02:25:40 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, the degree Celsius is really not much of a unit. It's a scale based around the Kelvin unit.
02:25:56 <pikhq> Which happens to be offset from 0K by 273.15K.
02:26:02 <quintopia> POLL: Raise your hand if you would sit in a hot tub naked with several other naked strangers of both genders
02:26:57 <quintopia> i've just been informed that most of the population wouldn't
02:27:11 <quintopia> and i think you are confirming this
02:27:31 <quintopia> okay, maybe it is that no one cares
02:27:35 <pikhq> quintopia: It's... Fundamentally not a big deal.
02:27:50 <pikhq> quintopia: Like, I seriously don't give a fuck. Also, nudity taboos are stupid.
02:28:41 <Gregor> Nudity: That's right kids, it's worse than violence! (Just look at our rating systems)
02:29:04 <pikhq> Gregor: Only in the US. :)
02:29:27 <quintopia> well, i thought maybe it had something to do with the idea that people are so self-conscious about their bodies
02:29:39 <zzo38> I would not sit in a hot tub with anyone, whether naked or not, and regardless of gender. (Actually, I don't sit in a hot tub at all.)
02:30:20 <zzo38> I want to tell you: I don't like pornography, but I am not everyone. Different people should be allowed to have their own opinion.
02:30:27 <zzo38> And that is what my opinion is.
02:32:09 <zzo38> If someone likes to watch pornography then maybe they should do so, but you shouldn't force other people who don't like pornography (such as myself) to watch pornography.
02:32:10 <pikhq> And would you *look* at her ankles. The harlot!
02:32:30 * pikhq puts away the forced-viewing rig
02:33:25 <pikhq> He's making *another* Star Wars trilogy.
02:33:27 <zzo38> POLL: Raise your hand if you are unable to raise your hand, please.
02:34:04 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, good. I can put away the tar and feathers.
02:35:10 <zzo38> MORE POLL: How much garlic do you put in your tomato sauce? (y/n)
02:35:50 <pikhq> Garlic is the secret to deliciousness.
02:35:52 <Gregor> How many 'y's before it's "garlic sauce with tomato"
02:35:55 <Gregor> 'cuz that's what I make :P
02:37:10 <zzo38> Gregor: O, I didn't know that.
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02:39:18 <Sgeo> Hooked up an external monitor, speakers, mouse, and keyboard to my notebook
02:39:29 <Sgeo> The keyboard's crap :(
02:40:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: Make another one!
02:40:08 <quintopia> yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
02:43:17 <Sgeo> Do 10 year old speakers > netbook speakers?
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02:46:39 <zzo38> Do you want to win a big spider three times as big as you, or four times as big as you, or five times as big as you? (No cheating and writing "three and a half times" as your answer, please!)
02:47:39 <zzo38> Why does some MP3 files it says is 2:20 length but actually the audio goes on longer than that?
02:49:50 <pikhq> The MP3 spec is poorly designed.
02:50:12 <pikhq> Unless it's encoded by LAME, there's no way of knowing the exact duration, just estimating it.
02:53:59 <zzo38> It says 2:57 but it is actually 4:19
02:54:16 <zzo38> Some MP3 files do that it says the wrong time like that
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02:55:30 <Sgeo> Dear Opera, quit feasdf
02:55:34 <Sgeo> 'Fuck this keyboiard
03:01:10 <zzo38> The reason I ask many questions is that I can write a report about literate programming systems, but if I write it only by myself it will be biased, therefore it must be written by many people.
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03:03:25 <cheater99> zzo38: what is the point of literate programming?
03:04:10 <zzo38> cheater99: There is many point depending what you are doing. The main point is that you can write a book of your program. It is both a book and a computer program. But you can do other things too.
03:04:37 <cheater99> ii'm interested in your take on that
03:06:36 <Gregor> Why am I so good at making Chrome crash X_X
03:06:41 <zzo38> The other things are dependent on opinion and on the system you are using, but here are some: You can define the chunks in any order and group them in chapters rather than the order it needs to be compiled. You can make it one file instead of the header file separate. You can typeset mathematics.
03:06:42 <Gregor> It's crashing more than Firefox for me.
03:07:17 <cheater99> zzo38: why would you make this "book" thing?
03:07:23 <Sgeo> CRT with higher resolution > LCD with lower resolution?
03:07:34 <zzo38> In Enhanced CWEB, you can also use characters in identifiers that are not normally allowed in identifiers, you can make @{ ... @} blocks that interpret stuff before compiling, and more.
03:08:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: Actually, CRT > LCD in general, if video quality is your sole criterion.
03:08:30 <Sgeo> The CRT in question is possibly over a decade old
03:08:48 <pikhq> It might still be true.
03:08:52 <Sgeo> And last I tried it, many years ago, it stopped working
03:09:04 <Sgeo> Also, it might break this table
03:09:17 <zzo38> cheater99: There are many possible reasons why. For example, to describe the algorithms of the program. Or, when you are making a algorithm, make the book describing it also a computer program; it might make some ambiguous things understandable and can also run the algorithm by computer!
03:09:33 <zzo38> But there are other reasons you might write a book of the program, too.
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03:10:12 <cheater99> i see little benefit over doxygen.
03:10:34 <cheater99> doxygen isn't necessarily literate programming, is it?
03:11:44 <zzo38> doxygen is a documentation generator. Some literate programming systems can do that too.
03:13:22 <zzo38> Literate programming is something different!
03:14:28 <zzo38> And literate programming systems may allow you to do different stuff, too! Also, a literate programming system will generally create a table of contents of the program, and an index of all identifiers and other things.
03:14:52 <zzo38> Have you read Computers and Typesetting Volume B? And Volume D?
03:15:09 <zzo38> Those volumes were written using Pascal WEB.
03:15:40 <cheater99> you're listing all things that can be done by doxygen
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03:16:05 <cheater99> and then you also say "it can do other things" but you don't go into any real-world useful examples of such
03:16:30 <zzo38> Does doxygen do prettyprinting programs and rearranging chunks?
03:17:20 <cheater99> you get a table of contents, you get nice html listings with colors etc
03:18:35 <zzo38> Like, if you write { @<Figure out the filename@>; @<Sort it in alphabetical order@>; @<Send it to the printer@>; } will it compile with the definitions for those things included and add cross-references to where they are defined, in the printout?
03:19:48 <zzo38> I can see a example screenshot of a Doxygen file on Wikipedia. They don't describe the implementation and algorithms used. Literate programming describes the implementation and algorithms used.
03:20:42 <zzo38> Here is a program I wrote implementing BytePusher VM, so that you can see one kind of literate programming: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/BytePusher.w
03:21:31 <cheater99> that was fucked! wow! i got real scared
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03:22:41 <cheater99> zzo38: doxygen has a description field for every object that is documented by it
03:22:50 <cheater99> zzo38: you are free to explain your algorithm there
03:22:50 <zzo38> See you can combine TeX codes and C codes together.
03:23:44 <cheater99> tex is not usually necessary for code documentation.
03:24:55 <zzo38> cheater99: I suppose you can do that. But literate programming generally explains the algorithm by typesetting your codes using mathematical symbols and cross-references and things. Literate programming is not the same as code documentation; it is something quite different. See the part @<Outer loop@> in the BytePusher VM program.
03:25:44 <zzo38> It doesn't contain any C codes other than for(;;) but the names inside that loop will be typesetting with cross-references so that you can look at the algorithms in more detail; the for(;;) is also typeset.
03:26:17 <cheater99> so what's a real-world use case where LP is necessary and the need is not fullfilled by doxygen?
03:26:26 <cheater99> i'm looking for an answer of the form:
03:26:48 <cheater99> "you are in the office and your manager orders you to do X. This is much easier thanks to literate programming, which does Y"
03:28:20 <zzo38> X="writing a book about this algorithm and implementing it on the computer". Y="allows rearranging chunking and typesetting the code for the algorithm (using mathematical symbols) and the explanations you have provided".
03:29:48 <zzo38> OK, sorry. I have never heard of literate programming being used in an office; usually they are things people do by themself.
03:29:48 <cheater99> i don't want to sound too negative, but X never happens outside of academia, and academic interest out of academic interest is not a real-world situation
03:30:46 <quintopia> algorithms that came from academia are used real world all the time
03:30:48 <zzo38> Literate programming can also make the program easier to understand. Write it as you would write a book.
03:30:56 <quintopia> and before the real world knows about them, they have to be published
03:33:15 <zzo38> If I make a new algorithm, I will use Enhanced CWEB to write it. In some cases the algorithm can be useful as a standalone program, such as compress files, or encrypt files.
03:35:42 <cheater99> i have never found books to be simpler to understand than hypertext
03:37:09 <zzo38> These kind of books are like hypertext; they contain cross-references to everything. And you can have it that when viewed by computer screen, you can click on them to follow the cross-reference, if you want to.
03:37:25 <zzo38> But the best quality is as a book printed by laser printer.
03:38:48 <zzo38> An example of one of the advanced features of Enhanced CWEB can be found in this program http://sprunge.us/MbML
03:43:54 <Gregor> I made the collision detection much faster, at the cost of an awesome and/or terrible bug when you get killed.
03:44:02 <Gregor> When you get killed now, you go F***ING FLYING
03:44:07 <Gregor> Usually in a nonsense direction.
03:48:52 <Gregor> Damn ... that should have been an enormous speed improvements, and instead it makes almost no difference >_>
03:53:20 <cheater99> zzo38: i'm looking through byte pusher
03:53:34 <cheater99> i must say i really really dislike the syntax
03:53:58 <Gregor> BytePusher ... has syntax?
03:55:38 <cheater99> elliott: how cute of you to care enough to still be a little contrary to what i say
03:55:48 <quintopia> what's the highest level language existing for assembling for BytePusher?
03:55:51 <zzo38> cheater99: The syntax of Enhanced CWEB, do you mean? (It is much neater when typeset)
03:56:19 <cheater99> zzo38: it takes extra brain power to look past those ugly tags
03:56:28 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know. You can do it in Python and stuff like that, but they aren't meant for assembling for BytePusher. The only programming language that is meant for assembling for BytePusher is PUSHEM.
03:56:37 <zzo38> (Feel free to invent your own if you want to)
03:56:56 <zzo38> cheater99: I can post a DVI file or PDF file if you want to see the typeset program.
03:57:11 <cheater99> i can easily imagine how it would look
03:57:22 <cheater99> the problem is i'm not editing the dvi
03:57:38 <zzo38> cheater99: The DVI file is in BytePusher.zip (in the same directory)
03:57:56 <zzo38> (BytePusher.zip also has Windows executables)
03:58:20 <cheater99> i only do linux right now for the desktop
03:58:28 <zzo38> cheater99: Use a GUI if you want; but I find editing it using the plain text file provides more control.
03:58:39 <zzo38> The program works on Linux, too.
04:00:00 <zzo38> You will need the WEBMATH fonts: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/webmath.zip (compile the fonts according to your laser printer)
04:01:25 <cheater99> yeah, those dvi's look pretty much like what i expected them to
04:02:06 <cheater99> i guess if you're writing a paper, ok
04:02:24 <cheater99> but other than that, i don't see any reason to use it in a program that is not a research project
04:04:38 <zzo38> cheater99: Well, that is OK. I suppose it can depend on your opinion. Different people have different opinions of literate programming, and that is OK.
04:06:34 <cheater99> feel free to (try to) change my opinion
04:07:28 <zzo38> Donald Knuth used literate programming to write TeX.
04:07:44 <Gregor> That is a /really/ poor argument :P
04:07:53 <Gregor> Donald Knuth: Not a typical programmer.
04:09:27 <zzo38> Gregor: I understand. I think I am not a typical programmer either, many of my things have many different opinions from other people and there are things many different from other programs.
04:09:50 <pikhq> I'd say literate programming *can* offer a decent benefit if used well. But that Donald Knuth used it is really not much of an argument. :)
04:10:14 <Sgeo> Better than illiterate programming
04:10:45 * Sgeo is not too worried about offending anyone. No one reading this will be offended.
04:11:12 <zzo38> pikhq: You are right that it is not much of an argument.
04:12:19 <Sgeo> What was broken?
04:12:23 <cheater99> i stopped learning haskell until he fixed his css markup
04:12:41 <cheater99> the listings would be white on white and in browsers that parsed his css at all some parts would be invisible
04:12:56 <cheater99> took a looong time to happen though (why? it's a simple edit)
04:13:00 <Sgeo> There are now chapters on monads!
04:13:06 <Sgeo> Now when will there be stuff about zippers/
04:13:11 <cheater99> there were problems and you couldn't see the underscore
04:13:12 <Sgeo> Zippers _STILL_ confuse me
04:13:23 <cheater99> i was wondering when he'd do monads
04:13:29 <pikhq> "Wind, wind, in the air... Don't be afraid to care." Aaaah, how I love Pink Floyd.
04:14:31 <zzo38> And of course there are many different opinions of literate programming. (Some people prefer to write it linearly, such as Literate Haskell. But other people like it differently. Enhanced CWEB *can* be used to write linearly like that if you want (just use '@*' and '@ ' and '@c'), but only linearly like that misses one important point of literate programming, in my opinion.)
04:21:55 <cheater99> i like how you said "some people" rather "some of its users"
04:22:07 <cheater99> you might go further and say "some of you prefer to write it linearly"
04:22:24 <cheater99> which would be understandably amusing :)
04:26:20 <elliott> pikhq: psht, that's not even the best pink floyd lyric with "air" in it! shameful.
04:26:37 <elliott> (Overhead the albatross hangs motionless upon the air)
04:28:21 <elliott> Gregor: please tell me it still flies
04:29:15 <Gregor> elliott: I had to abandon that series of changes entirely, that was the LEAST of its bugs, and it didn't actually improve speed at all.
04:29:28 <elliott> Gregor: Re-introduce the insane nonsense flying thing.
04:29:37 <elliott> Gregor: It is (1) awesome, (2) hilarious and (3) justifiable with plot.
04:29:50 <Gregor> I'll do it with just one of the enemies :P
04:29:51 <elliott> "You have a jetpack attached to you so that if you are ever compromised, the enemies can't scan your neurons!"
04:30:00 <elliott> "They'll never even GET to your body!"
04:30:11 <elliott> "It is automatically activated."
04:30:39 <cheater99> what i liked more was the spinning disc thing in the diamond age
04:30:47 <cheater99> i'm not sure if you guys have read the book
04:31:03 <cheater99> but the scene at the molo was my favourite out of the book probably
04:31:42 <elliott> pikhq: I guess it isn't fair though because Echoes is pretty much the best song ever.
04:31:47 <Gregor> elliott: Was that emphasis or pun?
04:31:59 <elliott> Gregor: Emphasis, you dork.
04:32:11 <Gregor> elliott: For not making it a pun, YOU LOSE.
04:35:04 <pikhq> elliott: It's the start of a good album though.
04:35:16 <pikhq> elliott: Also, I need to get more of their discography. Really really do.
04:35:22 <elliott> pikhq: Well, yes. Meddle itself is rather poor and really there's no point in it apart from Echoes.
04:35:36 <elliott> On the other hand, you could put Echoes at the end of a Britney Spears album and it'd be the best album ever.
04:35:58 <pikhq> I've just got to say I love Dark Side of the Moon.
04:36:53 <Gregor> OK, elliott, pikhq, all of us, time for EPIC HAVENWORKS WEBSPLAT BATTLE
04:37:02 <Gregor> Whoever gets the most images wins. Lowest time is for GLORY AND HONOR
04:37:15 <elliott> pikhq: If you don't have Meddle, rundown: odd instrumental thing, soft acoustic boring-as-hell love song (not joking), FOOTBALL FANBOY SONG INCLUDING LIVERPOOL FANS SINGING "YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE", a tropical jazzy song (NOT JOKING), a song where a dog sings the "lyrics", and Echoes.
04:37:27 <elliott> Gregor: I will totally do that in one minute.
04:37:54 <pikhq> elliott: I find it amusing that "You'll Never Walk Alone" is a Liverpool football thing.
04:38:00 <pikhq> elliott: The lyrics like, do not fit at all.
04:38:07 <pikhq> Nor does the music.
04:38:11 <elliott> pikhq: It's *football*; you can't expect intelligence.
04:38:21 <elliott> pikhq: But yeah terrible side 1, amazing side 2 (because the entirety of side 2 is just Echoes).
04:38:38 <pikhq> Still. "When you walk through a storm, hold your head up high, and don't be afraid in the dark"?
04:38:39 -!- elliott has left (?).
04:38:42 -!- elliott has joined.
04:38:50 <elliott> pikhq: Footballing in a storm.
04:38:55 <elliott> A really big pitch so they're just walking, not running.
04:39:22 <cheater99> pikhq: you obviously know nothing at all about football fans in the 80s
04:39:26 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, wait, we need to standardise on a window size for this.
04:39:48 <elliott> We would have in the past.
04:39:48 <cheater99> pikhq: british football club fans were really violent
04:39:52 <elliott> Gregor: Not since scrolling.
04:39:59 <cheater99> so much that britain would get disqualified from cups
04:40:00 <Gregor> elliott: Elements can be 100% width.
04:40:16 <Gregor> elliott: Which means window size can be relevant. But OK, starting now.
04:40:26 <Gregor> cheater99, pikhq: JOIN US in epic HAVENWORKS WEBSPLAT
04:40:28 <cheater99> obviously the song resonates with group violence
04:40:54 <pikhq> cheater99: ... How?
04:41:00 <pikhq> cheater99: Seriously, what the hell?
04:41:05 <Gregor> cheater99: 1) Go to http://codu.org/websplat/ and add the link to your bookmarks bar like it says. 2) Go to http://www.havenworks.com/ , wait (eternally) for it to load, then play websplat on that page!
04:41:17 <cheater99> pikhq: you're not european are you?
04:41:58 <pikhq> cheater99: Be amazed that I even knew the song "You'll Never Walk Alone" and that it's a Liverpool football thing!
04:42:14 <cheater99> quite often in europe a sports match (most often football) is just a pretext to go and beat people up
04:42:26 <pikhq> That's... Fucking retarded.
04:42:27 <cheater99> you'll have fanclubs beating other fan clubs
04:42:37 <pikhq> And I say this as a man living in the same country with Palin.
04:42:40 <Gregor> ARGH I suck at this game apparently X-D
04:42:46 <cheater99> sometimes they take chains, hammers, axes with them
04:42:58 <Gregor> At least I captured more than two images per second :P
04:43:03 <pikhq> You're starting to make the GOP look intelligent.
04:43:34 <pikhq> Which, honestly, is an astounding feat. They'd like the government to keep its hands off their Medicare.
04:44:40 <elliott> Gregor: That's the highest image count so far.
04:45:00 <elliott> Gregor: I have to say, I would appreciate an ability to look up/left/right/down a certain amount, like in some platformer games.
04:45:09 <elliott> Jumping down is very risky as it stands.
04:45:31 <Gregor> elliott: Uhhh, no, I got 428 one time.
04:45:45 <Gregor> (No at that being the highest image count so far that is)
04:45:51 <Gregor> Oct 23 17:37:58 <Gregor> 428@1105D
04:45:59 <pikhq> cheater99: "Grand Old Party". It refers to the Republicans.
04:46:13 <pikhq> cheater99: Ironically, they are the *younger* of the two major political parties in the US.
04:48:44 <elliott> Gregor: 169@271D fuck fuck fuck
04:48:52 <elliott> Gregor: get rid of enemies plz
04:48:56 <Gregor> elliott: Still goin' strong 8-D
04:49:04 <elliott> Gregor: this game is awesome
04:49:12 <elliott> it's like havenworks was designed for it
04:49:17 <elliott> (probably a bit of the other way around :P)
04:49:20 <quintopia> i just died on havenworks at 370 :/
04:50:00 <elliott> Chrome tip: don't refresh, open a new tab and close the old one
04:50:45 <cheater99> it's loooooooooooooadiiiiiiiiiiiiiing
04:51:17 <elliott> Gregor: I'm restarting now.
04:51:24 <quintopia> the most annoying thing is not being aable to pass into the left side of a left-aligned paragraph even after double-jumping
04:51:30 <Gregor> I'm at 344, still goin :)
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04:52:47 <Gregor> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
04:53:25 <Gregor> cheater99: <number of images>@<time>{D for died, W for won}
04:53:38 <Gregor> cheater99: If it's reaaally not loading, you may just want to try again :P
04:54:04 <quintopia> maybe it's more like ten minutes to load
04:54:27 <elliott> no need to include image numbers when you won :P
04:54:30 <Gregor> It should take a while to load on havenworks (thousands of images to locate, lots of shit to do ...), but not ten minutes.
04:54:42 <elliott> Gregor: i'm thinking that turn{Dimages|W} is better
04:54:55 <elliott> 289572349874892789749827349W
04:55:02 <elliott> i guess that's a bit hard to see
04:55:09 <elliott> Gregor: anyway you know that havenworks logo in the top-left corner? well
04:55:14 <Gregor> I liked the original format.
04:55:16 <Gregor> elliott: I'm aware of it.
04:55:30 <Gregor> elliott: You can jump above the screen ;)
04:55:40 <elliott> The first column of the actual page :P
04:55:42 <Gregor> I also think the image count should be included with win. It's redundant, but convenient.
04:55:44 <elliott> I'm not that fucked, just amusing
04:55:48 <elliott> The two icons are fucking. Truth.
04:56:14 <cheater99> i think it would be nice to have a faster computer
04:57:11 <Gregor> cheater99: If you're using FF, you should REAAAALLY be using Chrome for HavenWorks :P
04:58:41 <elliott> Gregor: X_X I just fell down so much
04:58:47 <elliott> I will have to climb back all the way.
04:58:51 <Gregor> elliott: Have fun getting back up ^^
04:59:13 <elliott> Gregor: I actually killed an enemy on the way down, so close.
04:59:25 <elliott> Gregor: FUCKING JUMP 1PX TOO HIGH
05:00:40 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/66UQx.jpg
05:00:43 <quintopia> turns out i'm one pixel taller than i thought
05:01:04 <quintopia> killed standing still by an enemy supposedly above me
05:01:05 <elliott> quintopia: it's the damn hat
05:01:30 <quintopia> Gregor: they should knock the hat off instead :/
05:01:49 <elliott> Gregor: This is your life's achievement so far.
05:01:55 <elliott> Gregor: You're gonna have to try REALLY DAMN HARD to top this.
05:02:15 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, time to play again.
05:02:21 <quintopia> Gregor: ior just keep making it better. that would top it.
05:02:31 <Gregor> elliott: I'm putting that quote on its homepage :P
05:03:05 <elliott> Gregor: It may be worth considering bringing the game to perfection and then committing suicide so that you don't soil your reputation.
05:03:52 <quintopia> Gregor: if i animate him bending over to pick up his hat, will you make it so an enemy touching the top two px triggers it?
05:04:06 <quintopia> (and freeze player while that happens of course)
05:04:29 <quintopia> elliott: the game will NEVAR BE PERFECT
05:04:32 <Gregor> quintopia: It'll be more than two px, but yes.
05:04:37 <quintopia> we'll just keep coming up with ways to make it better
05:04:47 <Gregor> quintopia: Remember you have to animate the hat falling off in both directions, and grabbing it in both directions.
05:04:52 <elliott> the web will be outdated and archaic
05:04:59 <elliott> and nobody will use it for anything
05:05:09 <elliott> people will make whole fake websites just to have new levels to play it on
05:05:16 <elliott> web design will go far beyond what we consider excellent today
05:05:35 <elliott> MegaOS 9 will run chrome in a linux vm
05:05:36 <quintopia> Gregor: or i could just animate the hat coming off in both directions. he'd have to turn around to pick it up behind him anyway.
05:05:42 <elliott> chrome will still be maintained as the platform for the game
05:06:06 <Gregor> OK, back to the game ...
05:07:25 <Gregor> I've had three almost-deaths now *breathes heavily*
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05:10:26 <Gregor> A friend of mine tied my 428!
05:10:44 <Gregor> Now he's at 481 nooooes
05:11:22 <elliott> Gregor: LOL HUGE FALL AGAIN
05:13:47 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, you need to offer a cash prize for completing this.
05:14:08 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, your friend has just pushed the closest score to 37%.
05:14:11 <elliott> This is *insanely* difficult. :P
05:14:15 <Gregor> I can't verify that they're not lying.
05:14:31 <elliott> Gregor: Are they the lying sort?
05:14:39 <Gregor> Nonono, not my friend.
05:14:47 <Gregor> I mean if I posted a cash prize, it'd have to be just amongst us :P
05:14:50 <Gregor> Making it near-pointless.
05:15:06 <elliott> Gregor: Not near-pointless imo >:D
05:15:17 <elliott> Gregor: And ehh... you could do some freaky standalone-program thing that's all obfuscated and encryptd.
05:17:10 <elliott> Gregor: I'm having a few minutes break, feel free to try and beat anyone's record :P
05:18:27 <elliott> Gregor: But seriously, is this even possible?
05:18:54 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, you know those huge columns we're playing on?
05:18:55 <Gregor> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:19:00 <elliott> Gregor: Scroll down to the very bottom of them. I dare you to.
05:19:03 <elliott> Gregor: Look at the scrollbar.
05:19:05 <elliott> IT'S NOT EVEN HALF FUCKING WAY
05:19:15 <elliott> There is a mass of NON-COLUMNATED SHIT after that.
05:19:16 <Gregor> elliott: Look at the number of images, not the size of the page :P
05:19:22 <elliott> Gregor: You still have to navigate around.
05:19:22 <Gregor> We're at more than a third!
05:19:29 <elliott> And then everything goes into one column... what?
05:19:40 <elliott> Does everything go into one pinky-beigey column a while down?
05:20:10 <elliott> "GOP [GOP=Grand Old Party= Republican]"
05:20:12 <elliott> THANKS FOR THAT HAVENWORKS
05:20:25 <elliott> Gregor: Oh yeah then after that we get WOO SUPER-WIDENESS
05:20:38 <Gregor> That section is unplayable, but if you get all the images before, you can drop through it and still be OK.
05:20:42 <elliott> [[Google.com/search?q="Dick+Cheney+is+a+TERRORIST"]]
05:20:46 <elliott> Gregor: We're aiming for 10)%.
05:21:01 <elliott> Okay, let's see... more one-column insanity...
05:21:15 <elliott> "HavenWorks.com has been an Aesthetically Challenged News Website Since 1998"
05:21:20 <quintopia> 408@2002D jumped but not high enough
05:21:30 <elliott> -c0br43- Hello elliott, and welcome to #esoteric on Freenode! Please make sure to check out the new radio stream at http://htsradio.fezrev.com:8212/stream.m3u and have a great day! :D
05:21:44 <Gregor> elliott: Nonono, you can still get 100%.
05:21:46 <quintopia> anyone want to get an over-under bet going on when Havenworks realizes that Bush isn't news anymore?
05:21:50 <Gregor> elliott: What I mean is there's a point of no return.
05:22:00 <Gregor> elliott: That super-tall column has no images in it.
05:22:09 <elliott> [[ Aesthetically HavenWorks was meant more as a Mondrian, we apologize that it comes off more like a Jackson Pollock ]]
05:22:11 <Gregor> elliott: If you get all the ones above, then drop through it, you can still get all the ones below.
05:22:22 <elliott> Gregor: Isn't that obvious?
05:22:28 <elliott> "Do everything before, then do that, now you can do the after"
05:22:47 <elliott> Gregor: Oh man that's great, the very last image at the bottom of the page is the havenworks logo.
05:23:02 <elliott> Gregor: Do you realise it's more than one page?
05:23:10 <elliott> http://havenworks.com/censorship/
05:23:11 <elliott> http://havenworks.com/military/
05:23:13 <Gregor> elliott: Except inevitably if you got that logo, you'd go "SHIIIII I MISSED ONE"
05:23:15 <elliott> http://havenworks.com/law/
05:23:21 <Gregor> And spend all day trying to find what you missed.
05:23:25 <pikhq> Well, I just looked at havenworks.com
05:23:28 <elliott> http://havenworks.com/hermit <-- entirely different stuff
05:23:37 <elliott> WE MUST DO EVERY SINGLE PAGE
05:23:38 <pikhq> Holy fuck it's like Geocities all over agin.
05:23:45 <elliott> pikhq: WebSplat it. Srsly.
05:23:53 <elliott> It is impossible to convey how fun it is.
05:23:55 <pikhq> IT HAS HORIZONTAL SCROLLING OH MY DEAR GOD
05:24:09 <quintopia> Gregor: add a trigger to the code so that if someone gets 100% on the page, the entire game state gets sent to you and you can check that it's not fake :D
05:24:24 <pikhq> My eyes just got raped.
05:24:25 <elliott> pikhq: the unbelievable thing is that this guy is a liberal! usually the crazies of this sort are right-wingers
05:24:26 <Gregor> Except that I /can't/ check that it's not fake.
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05:24:38 <Gregor> It only hurts at first.
05:24:54 <elliott> Also I can no longer see anything but red, blue and green in their purest form.
05:25:16 <elliott> It's not just a blog, it's a WEB-LOG!
05:25:28 <quintopia> Gregor: in that case, accept submissions of video play-throughs from claimed winners. you can cut down review time by instantly rejecting all videos under an hour long.
05:25:33 <elliott> Gregor: oh dear god: http://havenworks.com/hermit/surfing/index.htm
05:25:37 <elliott> Gregor: You will laugh when that page loads.
05:25:48 <elliott> The header specifically AND ALSO THE LENGTH
05:25:53 <Gregor> elliott: You're right, I did.
05:26:25 <Gregor> quintopia: But that means if you thought you had ANY CHANCE of winning, you'd have to figure out how to make a video playthrough ;)
05:26:26 <quintopia> this is worse than yvette's bridal formal
05:26:37 <elliott> Nothing is worse than Yvette's Bridal Formal.
05:26:45 <quintopia> Gregor: presumably once someone has one, they know they have a chance
05:26:48 <elliott> At least the content here -- of what little I've managed to coerce my eyes into reading -- doesn't seem too bad.
05:26:55 <elliott> Yvette's Bridal Formal is UFO Schizophrenia: The Website!
05:27:01 <Gregor> quintopia: Fair point :P
05:27:02 <quintopia> that's why twingalaxies exists after all
05:27:28 <elliott> "you can cut down review time by instantly rejecting all videos under an hour long."
05:27:30 <elliott> wouldn't take that long :P
05:28:41 <Gregor> We need to find something that's tough, but not ridiculous.
05:28:43 <elliott> extrapolating from gregor's score + extra since it stops being multi-columned
05:28:47 <elliott> Gregor: no, this is perfect
05:29:32 * Gregor puts on his wrist splints >_> <_<
05:30:57 <elliott> Gregor: Aww man, it's gone all slow.
05:31:13 <elliott> Gregor: Lots of enemies falling + you falling = slow for a few seconds.
05:31:34 <Gregor> Yeah, it does NOT handle having too many things on the screen very well :(
05:32:10 <Gregor> quintopia: Man, these images are SO AWESOME.
05:32:35 <elliott> Gregor: This would be so, so amazing as multiplayer.
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05:32:45 <elliott> Grab images before anyone else does, person with the most images at death / field emptying wins.
05:33:53 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ9YtJC-Kd8
05:34:36 <elliott> Gregor: WE FUCKING NEED HP.
05:34:51 <Gregor> Agreed, I'll implement that now.
05:34:57 <elliott> Gregor: In fact, make it 3 by default.
05:35:11 <elliott> Gregor: Make killing an enemy give you 1 HP with 1/3 chance?
05:35:22 <quintopia> but in that case enemies get 2 by default MWAHAHAHA
05:35:39 <elliott> Gregor: I mean it *is* totally awesomely hardcore the way it is, but... c'mon.
05:35:45 <elliott> DON'T scatter any potions, I think.
05:35:48 <elliott> You should have to work for HP.
05:35:52 <Gregor> quintopia: Any thoughts on how to get HP back from enemies?
05:36:19 <elliott> Gregor: JUST DISREGARD MY IDEAS ;__;
05:36:24 <quintopia> Gregor:if you can bounce off enough of them in a row without touching ground...
05:36:25 <elliott> Never asked me when quintopia give idea *sniff*
05:36:35 <elliott> Killing them is near-impossible already without risking everything :P
05:36:45 <elliott> Just make it a 1/3 or 1/4 chance of giving you 1 HP.
05:37:38 <quintopia> how one gets HP should be game dependent
05:38:16 <quintopia> in this case, you have the opportunity to get 1 HP every 200 images, but if you are already full, you don't get it
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05:39:12 <elliott> Gregor: It should involve effort to top up HP i.e. killing enemies :P
05:39:44 <Gregor> Bicker bicker bicker :P
05:39:48 <quintopia> well, killing enemies could be too
05:39:52 <zzo38> No earning HP should be a completely separate item
05:39:55 <quintopia> maybe a triple kill gets you an HP
05:40:18 <zzo38> Killing enemies should be worth nothing unless you make a combo, in which you should earn a lot of points
05:40:22 <elliott> Gregor: 3 starting HP. 1/3 or 1/4 (your pick) chance of getting 1 HP each time you kill an enemy.
05:40:28 <elliott> Gregor: Put it in, and if it sucks, quintopia can have what he wants :P
05:40:43 <elliott> It's not like you'd have to change much code to migrate the system.
05:40:47 <elliott> Also mine is simpler to start with >__>
05:41:04 <quintopia> personally, i'm kind of a fan of "you die if they touch you, end of story"
05:41:16 <elliott> quintopia: yeah, uh, havenworks :P
05:41:18 <quintopia> so 1 HP by default, with possibility of topping it up to 2 or 3
05:41:28 -!- catseye has joined.
05:41:56 <catseye> Hey! So.... I realized two things tonight.
05:42:07 <elliott> catseye: (1) Rabbits are totally fish.
05:42:19 <elliott> Gregor: ok i half-agree with quintopia now
05:42:33 <elliott> Gregor: 1 HP to start with, 1/3 to 1/4 chance -- your choice -- of getting 1 HP when killing an enemy.
05:42:34 <catseye> One is that the "j" in "Clojure" probably refers to Java. Up til now I thought it was just a weird intentional misspelling, kind of like "Flickr".
05:42:43 <elliott> Gregor: Battle, and you get better at battling because you get more HP.
05:42:46 <elliott> Gregor: See, it's a levelling system!
05:43:22 <pikhq> catseye: Fluas nun sango senkulpa?
05:43:35 <pikhq> elliott: Rabbits are totally birds.
05:43:46 <elliott> I have rabbits and I can confirm this.
05:44:11 <pikhq> elliott: In Japanese, it is entirely valid to use the counter for birds to refer to rabbits. Honestly.
05:44:28 <zzo38> elliott: I happen to disagree. Killing enemies should give you *nothing* (or perhaps even a penalty) if you fail to make a combo. You have to make a combo to earn a lot of points. I think this way is better.
05:44:33 <elliott> The Japanese do not understand rabbits.
05:44:39 <elliott> zzo38: You have clearly never played WebSplat.
05:44:41 <pikhq> Suffix applied to numbers for counting...
05:44:46 <elliott> I would give a cash prize to anyone who managed a combo at all.
05:44:49 <zzo38> pikhq: That doesn't make rabbits to be birds, though. It just means it is the same category for counting
05:44:56 <elliott> <elliott> The Japanese do not understand rabbits.
05:45:04 <quintopia> you can never count as fast as they breed
05:45:07 <pikhq> For instance, three people is "san nin", three birds/rabbits are "san wa".
05:45:11 <elliott> quintopia: That's why you neuter them first.
05:45:33 <quintopia> elliott: they are already pregnant by the time they are old enough to neuter without killing
05:45:35 <pikhq> quintopia: Buddhist monks insisted rabbits were birds so they could eat them.
05:45:42 <quintopia> I THINK THEY MIGHT BE BORN PREGNANT
05:45:44 <elliott> quintopia: Patently false.
05:45:45 <pikhq> quintopia: Honest.
05:45:54 <elliott> pikhq: "They can fly and everything!"
05:46:06 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, the argument was their ears count as wings.
05:46:18 <elliott> they can't actually flap them
05:46:26 <elliott> i'm just imagining a rabbit flying
05:46:29 <elliott> and its ears flapping wildly
05:46:33 <elliott> Gregor: How goes the score
05:46:36 <zzo38> elliott: I have played the game two times. But these ideas I have just have to do with nearly any game in general (of course much would depending on the game though; there are different ways depending on game).
05:46:43 <Gregor> elliott: I'm working on HP.
05:46:58 <elliott> Gregor: 1 HP by default 1/3 or 1/4 chance on monster kill to get 1 HP k thx bai
05:47:10 <Gregor> That's pretty much it, yup.
05:47:29 <elliott> Gregor: Waiiit what's the bit that it's not it.
05:48:11 <catseye> And yeah the other thing was totally about birds and rabbits and fish and counters.
05:48:23 <quintopia> On a more serious note, why has no species adapted the pregnant-at-birth scenario yet? Some of the sperm DNA gets duplicated and kept alive as a little cell culture, and as soon as the fetus has some functional ova, they are released into it. THEY WOULD BE MORE FIT FOR SURVIVAL THAN ALL.
05:48:52 <elliott> quintopia: i... i think nature is not evil enough to do your crazy ideas.
05:49:15 <elliott> catseye: we're playing WEBSPLAT ON HAVENWORKS YAY
05:50:04 <quintopia> no, they use parthenogenesis when they have pregnant offspring
05:50:24 <pikhq> quintopia: So, you're proposing that nature should invent tribbles.
05:50:28 <quintopia> i'm talking sexual reproduction...in the womb of a fetus
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05:50:40 <quintopia> pikhq: it's an evolutionarily stable strategy
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05:51:17 <pikhq> Just need one and a food supply, and everyone can have tribbles!
05:51:20 * quintopia puts bomb in tribble, gives to elliott
05:51:30 <elliott> quintopia: bomb jokes aren't funny.
05:51:33 <pikhq> And then Ethiopia sobs as all the food goes away.
05:51:42 <catseye> quintopia: you said pregant at birth - they're pregnant at birth
05:51:43 <elliott> who cares about ethiopia. tribbles!
05:51:46 * quintopia delivers twenty seven more tribbles and hides the bomb tribble among them
05:51:51 <elliott> quintopia: bomb jokes aren't funny.
05:52:01 <zzo38> Now let's put bomb in bomb, and put bomb in tribble, and put tribble in bomb, and then put it in the mailbox, and then gives to elliott.
05:52:24 <quintopia> catseye: i elaborated on the particular sort of pregnancy at birth i meant *in the same msg*
05:52:37 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> The keyboard's crap :( <zzo38> Sgeo: Make another one!
05:52:55 <zzo38> elliott: Can you use `addquote now?
05:53:17 <elliott> quintopia: it's not funny because it's a bomb joke.
05:53:20 <elliott> quintopia: would you joke about rape?
05:53:34 <quintopia> no, because rape jokes aren't funny.
05:53:58 <zzo38> I don't want a tribble. But I want to win a big spider three times as big as I am! And nobody else bother me when I am working in my room because the other people won't fit, it is already full
05:54:17 * quintopia starts making a giant spider sprite for websplat
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05:54:36 <elliott> zzo38: what is it with you and spiders
05:54:39 <zzo38> elliott,quintopia: But you can make joke about anything it might be funny or not
05:54:43 <elliott> quintopia: make the arms and legs for the evil favicons first
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05:55:22 <elliott> Gregor: You might want to downsize the favicons accordingly so that the final dimensions are the same.
05:55:28 <elliott> Gregor: What size are the favicons now?
05:55:32 <zzo38> elliott: Sometimes I watch the spider outside. But not always.
05:55:40 <Gregor> 32x32. They should be closer to 24x24, but I'll let quintopia judge.
05:55:49 <elliott> quintopia: You'll want to make it 32x32 or slightly smaller and have a square hole in there.
05:56:05 <elliott> Gregor: Err, will you be able to blend this with the favicon easily?
05:56:11 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe use GD or something on a codu.org URL?
05:56:25 <zzo38> Make big hole that the world can go through by following rules of Einstein relativistic
05:56:27 <Gregor> I COULD layer it client-side, but yukk.
05:56:50 <catseye> zzo38: where would we end up?
05:57:00 <catseye> i need to know for my report.
05:57:01 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> The keyboard's crap :( <zzo38> Sgeo: Make another one!
05:57:12 <elliott> catseye: the land of giant spiders
05:57:17 <elliott> where you make your own physics
05:57:38 <zzo38> catseye: I don't know. Do you mean if you make a big hole like I described?
05:57:55 <Gregor> elliott: What's taking so long right now is I decided you should get knocked back a bit when an enemy hits you, just to piss everyone off :P
05:58:05 <elliott> Gregor: Define knocked back a bit.
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05:58:54 <catseye> zzo38: yes. what's on the other side of the hole? perhaps we won't know until we actually go through it.
05:58:56 <elliott> Gregor: By the way, you might want to handle iframes in some way.
05:58:59 <quintopia> elliott: link the google favicon extractor again plox
05:59:03 <elliott> Gregor: You can access their document object, right?
05:59:07 <elliott> quintopia: it doesn't really work
05:59:18 <zzo38> catseye: The other side of the orbit of the Earth.
05:59:24 <quintopia> i just want to see if it works on *one page*
05:59:31 <quintopia> if it doesn't *really* work that's fine
06:00:03 <elliott> quintopia: http://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=DOM
06:00:15 <catseye> zzo38: so if it is fall here, would it be spring there?
06:00:26 <elliott> Gregor: What you really need is space-eating enemies that eat elements on the page and, when you hit the evil anti-matter they leave behind, you get hurtz.
06:00:47 <Gregor> elliott: Nothing I can do for him.
06:01:04 <zzo38> catseye: I guess so.
06:01:43 <elliott> Gregor: "Time of death, @250."
06:01:48 <elliott> Gregor: (If you get that I approve)
06:02:02 <Gregor> Bleh, my knockback = fail for some reason :(
06:02:16 <Gregor> elliott: You were combining my heart monitor with our scoring system ... how could I possibly not get that?
06:02:25 <catseye> Actualluy, the other thing I realized is that employer totally wants me to attend PyCon next year, and that I totally could. It would be like my own personal "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas^W^WAtlanta, Georgia"...
06:02:41 <elliott> catseye: that just sounds like... bad
06:02:49 <elliott> catseye: if you do it, you totally have to write a novel of it
06:02:54 <elliott> make sure to take lots and lots of drugs first
06:03:38 <catseye> elliott: People at work are apparently connected. I could totally schmooze my way into one of the cool PSF-only parties.
06:03:51 <elliott> catseye: please tell me those don't exist.
06:04:02 <catseye> elliott: I WAS FRIGHTENED TOO
06:04:11 <elliott> catseye: no wait. you're not joking?
06:04:22 <elliott> catseye: i... no but do they really
06:04:25 <elliott> do you know that they exist
06:04:40 <catseye> i mean, i have only second-hand accounts, but, no reason to doubt them.
06:05:15 <elliott> catseye: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAthank god for Apex eh
06:06:19 <catseye> and, if i go, thank god nobody knows who i am.
06:06:58 <catseye> i ... honestly have a hard time envisioning myself surviving the thing
06:07:22 <elliott> catseye: will The Guido be there
06:07:26 <catseye> all those... "Pythonistas"... taking it all so... *seriously*...
06:07:35 <catseye> elliott: from what i understand, yes, he attends
06:07:45 <elliott> in a strictly sensitive and non-offensive manner.
06:08:09 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, how do you do the initial img-detection? I assume you know that jQuery has stuff to do that? :P
06:08:32 <Gregor> jQuery has godawfully slow stuff to do that.
06:08:34 <elliott> Based on some getElementsBySelector thing which is supposedly stupendously fast for some reason.
06:08:42 <elliott> Gregor: Orly? I remember reading that it was unreasonably fast.
06:09:09 <Gregor> Oh, I should mention: I do this as part of my general platform detection, which has to go over every element anyway.
06:09:30 <Gregor> So selectors help me roughly none.
06:09:43 <Gregor> elliott: 'twould be even slower with jQuery, as I have learned by ... using jQuery to do it :P
06:10:09 <elliott> Gregor: The answer is TRACETAMARINV8
06:11:07 <Gregor> As an added bonus, you bounce off of enemies now :P
06:11:15 <elliott> Gregor: Totally doing it now.
06:11:58 <elliott> Gregor: Just let it stack up :P
06:12:34 <elliott> Gregor: Why not? If you make it 1/4 or 1/5 chance of getting 1 HP when killing an enemy...
06:12:47 <elliott> Gregor: OK compromise: Max HP as a function of images/total.
06:13:00 <Gregor> That makes more sense ... but for the moment Idonwanna X-P
06:13:05 <Gregor> I want to PLAY, not keep hacking X-P
06:13:14 <quintopia> yay these favicons are gonna be so cute staggering around
06:13:34 <elliott> Gregor: It uh... it actually feels bad having HP.
06:13:37 <elliott> Like you've ruined the skill element.
06:14:13 <Gregor> elliott: I HATE YOU WITH HATE
06:14:24 <elliott> Gregor: Sorry dude, it just does :P
06:14:59 <zzo38> Then remove the HP
06:15:11 <elliott> Gregor: I mean... it's only HavenWorks where it seems even vaguely needed, and HavenWorks should be near-impossible, dammit :P
06:16:05 <Gregor> Considering that I can't seem to get any HP boosts regardless, maybe it doesn't matter X-D
06:16:38 <Gregor> wtf, is there a bug preventing me from ever actually getting more HP ...
06:17:51 <elliott> Gregor: It just wouldn't feel like I've really won, you know?
06:17:54 <elliott> Like getting all but one image. :P
06:18:12 <Gregor> elliott: I REFUSE TO REMOVE IT AFTER YOU BITCHED SO MUCH ABOUT IT
06:18:21 <elliott> Gregor: WALLOW IN YOUR LIES THEN
06:19:16 <elliott> Gregor: The bouncing thing is good though.
06:19:36 <pikhq> Whoa. In 1968, North Korea captured the Pueblo. It remains a comissioned vessel of the Navy to this day. Making it the only Navy ship held captive.
06:19:58 <pikhq> Hooray, absurdly long wars.
06:20:24 <elliott> Gregor: I... a monster walked into me and I just bounced off.
06:20:49 <quintopia> Gregor: you added bouncing? :D :D :D :D
06:21:37 <Gregor> I have no idea what that means.
06:21:46 <elliott> Gregor: I... remove HP dude.
06:22:01 <Gregor> elliott: Oh, you bounced off and didn't lose HP? Did the monster disappear?
06:22:03 <quintopia> Gregor: holding down up while killing an enemy auto-jumps
06:22:14 <elliott> quintopia: It jumps whether you want to or not.
06:22:18 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, uh, yeah, HP :(
06:22:31 <Gregor> elliott: Did the monster disappear?
06:22:42 <elliott> Remove HP it's for loser fags.
06:23:16 <quintopia> hey you remember that time when elliott was all "ADD HP PLOX" and i was like "I LIKE INSTA-DEATH" and he was like "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
06:23:26 <Gregor> quintopia: That's how I remember it.
06:23:30 <elliott> quintopia is totally the games designer here REMOVE HP
06:24:05 <zzo38> (Maybe you can put pH?)
06:24:11 <Gregor> zzo38: Have you even played it? X-P
06:24:26 <catseye> zzo38: Hey! That one was totally mine! See last night's logs.
06:24:34 <quintopia> Gregor: don't dyke out the HP code, just have it turned off for image collection.
06:24:44 <elliott> quintopia: Why not? It'll be in the VCS history...
06:24:47 <quintopia> i can foresee scenarios where baddies are so tough to kill we need HP
06:24:49 <elliott> No point leaving dead code around.
06:25:04 <Gregor> I hate you all. With hatred.
06:25:10 <elliott> Gregor: I love how I can drop below a platform, get something, and then just jump back up on top of it.
06:25:17 <Gregor> I'm leaving the code in because it involved paring out damage dealing, which is good anyway.
06:25:27 <elliott> I could fall beneath a steel platform, pick up an image just above some lava, and then just somehow HOP BACK UP ONTO THE PLATFORM.
06:25:33 <elliott> Gregor: Just remove the display and gaining then :P
06:25:58 <catseye> elliott: you sound just like a scientologist
06:26:13 <elliott> quintopia: I don't think you understand how VCSes work.
06:26:13 <catseye> i picked up an image just above some lava once.
06:26:28 <elliott> quintopia: See, you can get code out of their history without cluttering up the present revision with it unnecessarily.
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06:26:49 <quintopia> elliott: i don't think you understand how making options be available to turn on when another game that needs them comes around works
06:26:51 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> Night all * Sgeo_ has joined #esoteric
06:27:05 <elliott> quintopia: I thought you were doing the design and Gregor doing the code.
06:27:13 <elliott> Orr are you now the overbearing project manager :P
06:27:23 <HackEgo> 247|<Sgeo> Night all * Sgeo_ has joined #esoteric
06:27:25 <Gregor> quintopia is doing ideas too.
06:27:40 <Gregor> quintopia's ideas are given higher priority because he's drawing too :P
06:27:46 <Sgeo> Great, I'm laughing too hard to fall asleep
06:27:48 <HackEgo> 246|<ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
06:28:09 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> The keyboard's crap :( <zzo38> Sgeo: Make another one!
06:28:15 <HackEgo> 247|<Sgeo> The keyboard's crap :( <zzo38> Sgeo: Make another one!
06:28:41 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
06:28:50 <elliott> stop, it's repo surgery time
06:28:53 <elliott> this could all go horribly wrong
06:29:19 <elliott> Gregor: codu.org is like supa slow
06:29:23 <elliott> at least http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
06:29:34 <HackEgo> 247|<Sgeo> The keyboard's crap :( <zzo38> Sgeo: Make another one!
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06:30:25 <quintopia> i had an idea for another powerup that would be really awesome early
06:31:20 <quintopia> Grappling hook gun, Metroid style!
06:31:26 <quintopia> to jungle swing from here to there
06:31:48 <elliott> It's like grappling hooks but more awesome because the rope bends in crazy manners.
06:32:14 <elliott> quintopia: it's not too powerful
06:32:29 <elliott> but with a lot of practice it's sweet
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06:33:34 <elliott> internally the rope is divided into N px segments i think 8 or 16
06:33:48 <elliott> and then each of them can bend according to the position of the player, what it's attached to, and what objects are in the way
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06:33:57 <elliott> (in fact it can go through too-thin walls due to the pixel size...)
06:34:11 <quintopia> you can use it over and over and over!
06:34:11 <elliott> and then you have to handle bouncing off walls and floor
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06:34:31 <elliott> two, seriously, you have no idea how hard using it effectively is
06:34:38 <catseye> codu.org just ATED GREGOR AND HACKEGO
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06:34:50 <elliott> like 95% of online worming is rope-based because it's so tricky
06:34:57 <quintopia> even just basic simple not-using-the-full-power-of-it movement is too powerful
06:35:06 <elliott> for some definition of too powerful
06:35:38 <elliott> Spiderwoman that is. What?
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06:36:20 <zzo38> Is there a faster way of receiving quote.db file?
06:36:38 <Gregor> I'm taking down the bots again, they're exacerbating the problem.
06:36:48 <elliott> Gregor: But I need to do repo surgery!
06:37:01 <elliott> The quotes are CHRONOLOGICALLY INACCURATE
06:38:27 <Gregor> Nope. It stands united with the rest of me.
06:39:17 <elliott> Gregor: So "nope" was inaccurate.
06:39:17 * Gregor now waits to see if anything is going to work again ...
06:39:25 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, you're being a totally great advertisement for prgmr :P
06:39:36 <Gregor> It only sucks ... recently?
06:39:40 <elliott> "It goes really slow and breaks on a frequent basis and I have no idea why! Then it goes back to normal again!"
06:39:55 <Gregor> It's not on a frequent basis, it's been bad for about a month straight.
06:39:58 <Gregor> Before that, clear sailing.
06:40:05 <elliott> Gregor: Frequent in that month, I mean.
06:40:15 <Gregor> It's been pretty much constant, not frequent :P
06:40:31 <elliott> I'd just colo but EXPENSE.
06:41:33 <zzo38> OK now I managed to get copy of "quote.db" file
06:45:16 * Gregor sobs in prgmr's general direction.
06:47:39 <Gregor> It's also pretty awesome that the moment HackEgo comes back up you queue like 50 commands X_X
06:48:09 <elliott> pikhq: "With Release 33-9117, the SEC is considering substitution of Python or another programming language for legal English as a basis for some of its regulations."
06:48:24 <elliott> Gregor: blame Sgeo; I added two quotes then used `help
06:48:35 <elliott> both addquotes finished before the help
06:48:38 <elliott> oh, I also looked up one quote
06:48:50 <elliott> sgeo queued up like three quote lookups while I asked for help for apparently no reason
06:51:52 <Gregor> That "you" was not you (elliott), it was you (#esoteric)
06:52:05 <elliott> Gregor: I am one with #esoteric.
06:52:24 <elliott> Why? Because it's 6:51 mother-a-fucking-m
06:57:53 <Gregor> Damn it prgmr, it should not take more than 5 minutes to boot.
06:58:27 <elliott> Gregor: IT'S BECAUSE THE SERVERS ARE ACTUALLY 386S LOL
06:59:09 <elliott> i swear i'm going only slightly crazloly.
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07:04:08 <catseye> elliott: "With Release 33-9117, the SEC [...]" ... are you fucking serious or is this another one of those "nukes -- powered by perl!" things?
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07:05:12 <Gregor> catseye: That is fully serious.
07:05:31 <Gregor> It's especially wonderful that they chose a language with no official semantics, formal or otherwise!
07:07:25 <Gregor> OK, websplat is back up to date (finally)
07:07:53 <catseye> It's like Hax0r Econom1st has come true. Well, more true.
07:09:16 <elliott> SO HOW DO THE PYTHON LAWS MEANT TO WORK
07:09:18 <elliott> SORRY MY CAPS LOCK IS ON NOW
07:09:27 <elliott> BEACUSE I WON'T PRESS THE BUTTON TO FIX ITSELF OFF
07:10:22 <catseye> ELLIOTT: THEY WORK BY MONKEYPATCHING MOSTLY
07:11:10 <elliott> CATSEYE: DOESN'T MONKEYPACTHING NOT SO COMMON IN PYTHON REALLY
07:12:03 <catseye> ELLIOTT NOT QUITE SO COMMON AS IT IS IN RUBY I GATHER BUT IT HAPPENS
07:12:44 <catseye> IN RUBY YOU WOULD OPEN UP THE ROOT OF THE LAW HIERARCHY TO MODIFY THE LAW AND ALL ITS SUBLAWS YEAAAH
07:13:44 <catseye> They could have had the decency to say "Prolog". Then I wouldn't hate them nearly so much.
07:14:51 <Gregor> As terrifying a notion as it is, JavaScript would have been a better option (it has a rather-complete specification, albeit a horrifying one)
07:15:29 <elliott> IT'S NOT NEARLY OAKY ENOUGH
07:16:06 <Gregor> What's important here is having specifiable behavior, not ... oakiness ...
07:17:18 <catseye> I want them to do this, and for the meaning of some part to be brought into question, so they turn to the docs, and the docs are ambiguous, so they turn to CPython, and CPython *CRASHES*.
07:17:26 <catseye> That will make the dark part of me very, very happy.
07:17:44 <elliott> IS J'APPROVE EVEN RIGHT PROPER
07:17:46 <Gregor> Note: They will never turn to the docs.
07:17:57 <elliott> ESTABLISHING PYTHON PRECEDENT
07:18:01 <elliott> AND CPYTHON WILL -- BY LAW --
07:18:09 <elliott> BE OBLIGATED TO OBEY THESE PRECEDENTS
07:18:17 <elliott> SO WE'LL HAVE TONS OF COMMITS GOING
07:18:24 <elliott> "AS PER BUTTFUCKER VS MUTTMUCKER, ..."
07:18:46 <Gregor> Yeah, I don't see that happening :P
07:20:40 <quintopia> Gregor: http://filebin.ca/kfemmz/iconbodyl0.png.tar.gz
07:21:06 <quintopia> i think the ideal order for animation is 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,0,7,6,5,4,3,2,1,...
07:21:22 <Gregor> Just when I thought I was freeeee
07:21:28 <quintopia> and i put 3 green dots in each one so you can calculate where to put the favicon
07:21:38 <quintopia> you'll want to remove them once you've figured it out
07:21:54 <elliott> GREGOR: I DONT SEE YOUR FACE HAPPENING EITHER REALLY.
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07:22:08 <quintopia> what i see: cruise control for cool
07:23:27 <Gregor> Contrary to popular misconception, the /sustain pedal/ is the cruise control for cool.
07:24:07 <elliott> QUINTOPIA: AT 7:23 AM NOBODY TURNS OFF CAPSLOCK
07:24:18 <elliott> <elliott> SORRY MY CAPS LOCK IS ON NOW
07:24:18 <elliott> <elliott> BEACUSE I WON'T PRESS THE BUTTON TO FIX ITSELF OFF
07:24:32 <quintopia> elliott: it's only 02:23. you can turn it off now.
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07:24:48 <elliott> GOOD THING I DONT LIEV IN COMMUNIST TMIE ZONE LIKE AMERICA
07:25:09 <quintopia> you said "i really need to go to bed"
07:25:15 <zzo38> Communist time zone??
07:25:18 <quintopia> or maybe it was "how much more annoying can i get?"
07:26:04 <elliott> QUINTOPIA: PROB. NOT AS ANNOYING AS YOU BUT I'LL TRY
07:26:10 <zzo38> What does it mean for timezones to be communist?
07:26:22 <elliott> ZZO38: I REALLY WISH I KNEW.
07:26:28 <elliott> ALSO: WHY LATENESS IMPLIES CAPSLOCK. ANOTHER THING I WANT TO KNOW.
07:27:06 <zzo38> Then figure it out.
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07:27:26 <elliott> CATSEYE: http://www.itworld.com/government/105031/will-wall-street-require-python
07:28:02 <elliott> "Something like this--perhaps in Java or Perl or Ocaml rather than Python--will happen, sooner or later." HAHAHAHA PERL LAWS
07:28:07 <elliott> I CAN SEE NO ISSUES WITH THIS IDEA
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07:47:31 <elliott> Gregor: THIS MAY HELP http://sizzlejs.com/
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07:48:38 <catseye> elliott who is not here that is likely the single horriblest article i have ever readed good night
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07:58:34 <Gregor> Feh, was hoping I could get the favicon to sit in the right place on the client.
07:58:38 <Gregor> But at least Chrome seems to unreliable.
07:59:02 <Gregor> Oh well, to the server side it goes.
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08:01:08 <Gregor> Well, if it was done on the client, I wouldn't have to trust clients not to send me nasty URL requests and thereby DOS me :(
08:07:41 <Gregor> I am made of fail, but the web is made of win!
08:11:06 <Gregor> quintopia: How sure are you about that order? :P
08:12:13 <quintopia> well, there are other orders that could work too...that one just amused me the most
08:12:29 <quintopia> works best if mob moves REALLY SLOW
08:28:26 <Gregor> Take that, hats wearing hats!
08:28:29 <Gregor> YOU DON'T BELONG IN THIS WORLD
08:31:20 <quintopia> Gregor: there seems to be a puddle of piss around dead you. is this correct?
08:32:05 <quintopia> must be an artifact of your crazy weird background
08:32:29 <quintopia> anyway, the teetering animation should go slightly faster and the mob should move slightly slower
08:33:36 <quintopia> AND IF IT IS NOT TOO DIFFICULT his acceleration should go up and down cyclically at the same frequency of the animation cycle
08:34:28 <Gregor> That would be way too difficult >_>
08:34:36 <Gregor> Too difficult for 3:30AM.
08:36:06 <quintopia> how difficult would it be to apply brownian motion with hard limits to his acceleration at each tick? then you don't have to think about frequency...
08:37:53 <quintopia> brownian motion is significantly easier to implement than periodic acceleration changes!
08:38:14 <Gregor> It's more difficult to implement than sleep.
08:39:06 <quintopia> anyway it's a lot better, and the splat dogs look great
08:39:28 <quintopia> but IT WOULD BE BETTER IF FAVICON DUDE WANDERING ACCELERATION
08:42:10 <quintopia> especially dying on the upward part of trajectory
08:43:33 <quintopia> AND YAY MOBS FALLING OFF PLATFORMS!
08:47:22 <quintopia> did that skulldog just turn around JUST to bite me?
08:48:43 <quintopia> oh no it was just an invisible wall
08:51:43 <quintopia> Gregor: try it on ballerinamafia.net. the face points the wrong way, so the favicon mobs are moonwalking!
08:53:58 <quintopia> actually, they only moonwalk to the left
08:54:33 <quintopia> so, shouldn't your favicon->mob converted horizontally flip the favicon in one of the directions?
08:54:42 <Gregor> Can you draw the favicon guy with just the hat crushed onto the body?
08:54:49 <Gregor> So the favicon itself would be obscured/
08:54:55 <Gregor> (For dead favicon guy)
08:55:04 <Gregor> Maybe just the legs sticking out or something :P
08:55:26 <quintopia> oh, i was gonna have dead favicon guy be the same, except with the body horizontal
08:55:44 <quintopia> if the favicon isn't actually there in the dead one, you don't have to convert it
08:56:02 <Gregor> Well, that's not a big deal really.
08:56:12 <Gregor> I just think it would be amusing if the hat was crushed over the body :P
08:56:51 <quintopia> but i can move the hat down a bunch so you get the same effect
08:57:48 <Gregor> Define what you mean by "convert"?
08:57:54 <Gregor> Do you mean I'd have to rotate or something?
08:57:57 <Gregor> 'cuz this is all client side.
08:59:09 <quintopia> so "the web is made of win" means you figured out how to do it clientside i guess
08:59:30 <Gregor> It's better that way, it really is.
09:00:07 <quintopia> is it? imagemagicking with php was always p damn fast for me
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09:02:49 <quintopia> reflection is possible clientside!
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10:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It occurs to me that Freespace 2 might simply be punishing me for having a computer with a crappy GPU...
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12:13:41 <nooga> http://www.mercurynews.com/san-jose-neighborhoods/ci_16401891?nclick_check=1
12:13:55 <nooga> $3k for a stupid buffer overflow?
12:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Calling Nokia Japanese may actually make a Finn materialize from thin air to correct you.]] — TV Tropes
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13:17:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, do you often materialise out of thin air to correct people about Nokia's place of origin?
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13:32:45 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: We have this sort of nation-wide round-robin scheduler for that, so it's not more oftener than a couple of times a month.
13:33:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Watching Gregor's corpse freefall is surprisingly relaxing.
13:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It aggregates this little cloud of favigoombas and bonedogs beneath it.
14:19:55 <Phantom_Hoover> lifthrasiir, well, there are some pages I've never won.
14:20:20 <lifthrasiir> well I just refer to the image shown on the victory
14:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> lifthrasiir, try it on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_townlands_of_County_Cork.
14:33:20 <Phantom_Hoover> It's 5600 lines long, and all the images are at the top or bottom.
14:38:47 <lifthrasiir> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper_operator every formula is also images.
14:39:37 <Ilari> Big Rigs. Rating: 1.0 - Abysmal. :-)
14:41:01 <Phantom_Hoover> That was just because they couldn't give it 0, wasn't it?
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14:43:02 <lifthrasiir> Phantom_Hoover: They should have give it -inf (as a signaling NaN) indeed
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14:44:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It's one of those weird verbs which is different in the pluperfect to the perfect.
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15:30:03 <catseye> Damn you, Phantom_Hoover. I read the log to get the context for that, and there WAS NONE.
15:31:28 <olsner> aha, so the context *is* in the log, you just have to read further back
15:32:34 <catseye> ok. Tree-based VM sounds like it is in a grey area between VM and AST walker, anyway, and I was wondering if you had heard of the technique of AST threading.
15:32:54 <catseye> (i.e. catseye just decided to proceed WITHOUT context.)
15:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the general principle was that the memory was a tree rather than an array.
15:35:02 <Phantom_Hoover> And things would be done to the tree so that more things could be done.
15:35:07 <catseye> I assume a von Neumann architecture, where programs are stored in the tree too?
15:35:11 <olsner> if you don't assume that pointers are indices in an array, isn't the heap always a tree?
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15:40:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I could go down the "ultra-pure" alley by making the tree the _only_ data structure, but that's too far, really.
15:41:10 <catseye> If you do that, make sure to not distinguish between left and right subtrees.
15:41:35 <catseye> Orientation is impure, you see.
15:41:55 <Phantom_Hoover> To what extent can one do things with self-modification?
15:43:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, if a program is encoded into the tree and there is a single instruction, which shifts a subtree, can you do anything interesting with that?
15:44:00 <catseye> But without knowing how execution proceeds on a tree, it's hard to visualize.
15:45:37 <catseye> I'll keep the idea warm 'til you get back.
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16:36:35 <elliott> Things that aren't popular enough: ILP64
16:37:03 <elliott> Although really it should be S32ILP64
16:37:07 <elliott> And, uh, have a 16-bit "short short".
16:41:30 <elliott> Wowzers, it is so totally non-trivial to get OS X in VirtualBox.
16:41:32 <olsner> I would like to see something like ILP32 but using the amd64 instruction set
16:42:23 <catseye> elliott: NetBSD. I have 50 minutes to try.
16:42:41 <catseye> then i have to leave to meet someone downtown...
16:42:54 <catseye> and i won't be back until... ?
16:43:01 <elliott> catseye: that ? is very vague :P
16:43:01 <catseye> so, might as well start, i think.
16:43:06 <elliott> catseye: lololol good luck :P
16:43:18 <elliott> FFSv2 = 64-bit FFSv1 + journaling, your call
16:43:26 <elliott> needed for partitions >1 TiB "but yeah".
16:43:31 <elliott> journaling. but uh FFSv1 is the default.
16:43:36 <elliott> catseye: also when it seems like the installer didn't accept your option
16:43:43 <elliott> if it put you to the "exit this configuration" thing
16:43:45 <elliott> it means it listened to you
16:43:58 <elliott> if you need to resize partitions
16:44:00 <elliott> don't do it in the installer.
16:44:11 <elliott> catseye: also get that usb stick with the guide and shit on. :P
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17:02:01 <cheater99> if you have a data type made out of multiple other datatypes, how do you call it?
17:02:29 <cheater99> say an object that has an int, a hash, and a Factory in it
17:02:58 <cheater99> they all coexist at the same time (and are necessary for the big object's existence)
17:03:02 <elliott> and never was he seen again
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17:12:37 <catseye> elliott: it is installed. but that is about all i can say for now.
17:12:46 <catseye> it doesn't see my network adapter, alas.
17:12:52 <elliott> catseye: tried the guide? :P
17:13:06 <catseye> not yet. wanted to make sure it didn't fux0r windows, for one thing.
17:13:35 <elliott> catseye: so the bootloader installed properly?
17:13:40 <catseye> also, guide i saved -- in html. will be a pain to read
17:13:55 <catseye> "NetBSD -- because you want your computer to feel like a toaster"
17:14:06 <elliott> catseye: well. you're in windows right?
17:14:12 <elliott> catseye: install w3m in cygwin
17:14:13 <catseye> i kept the FreeBSD MBR bootblock that is on this machine
17:14:19 <elliott> w3m -dump the_file >the_text_file
17:14:35 <elliott> probably want to do it to the pkgsrc one too
17:14:39 <catseye> i will probably study the guide 'offline' for a bit first, but yes, that's a good idea.
17:15:28 <catseye> i wonder if i can download some pkgsrc pkgs while in windows and stick them on the usb drive first too, so that i have some tools that don't make me fnargle when i try to use them.
17:16:01 <elliott> you know what ~ means right?
17:16:16 <catseye> like the motion of a hand going ~ ?
17:16:24 <elliott> it is meant to evoke a gesture
17:16:29 <elliott> if you try and look at it, mentally
17:16:33 <elliott> it's not one a human could actually do
17:17:16 <elliott> <luser> I'm just going to copy the apt index and the 20 packages over that I need to get my winmodem working, and then boot the Fedora LiveCD.
17:17:27 <elliott> <catseye> luser: ok... that's a bit... well... um... ~
17:18:30 <elliott> first actual TCP/IP networking section in the manual
17:18:36 <elliott> 24.3. Connecting to the Internet with a modem
17:18:41 <elliott> catseye: just thought you should now
17:18:49 <elliott> just sure exactly *which* one you want actually
17:18:53 <elliott> "24.4. Creating a small home network"?
17:19:36 <catseye> well remember, I have run BSD at home before. for a long time.
17:19:47 <catseye> this is not totally alien territory
17:20:51 <catseye> as for tools, it's mainly that i don't like vi
17:22:05 <catseye> and since ifconfig doesn't *list* any network devices besides lo0, i kind of know where i stand with that, anyway
17:23:16 <elliott> netbsd seems especially crazy
17:23:44 <elliott> catseye: i'm fine with vi as long as i can use the arrow keys and ^C instead of escape
17:23:55 <elliott> when either one of those doesn't work i become suicidal
17:25:28 <catseye> got to be going now, but will adventure further with this, probably tonight.
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17:47:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Since a non-trivial zero with real part /= 1/2 is a disproof, so if there are no disproofs of it, then it must be true.
17:47:34 <elliott> it's obvious it can't be unprovable
17:48:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, he made a joke.
17:49:17 <elliott> DMM needs to teach maths and science. desperately.
17:50:07 <elliott> Well, okay, so it is in the first paragraph of his Wikipedia article.
17:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> And he's stated he works in image processing in the annotations at least once.
17:51:06 <Phantom_Hoover> (He was showing off an edge-finding algorithm he found.)
17:51:41 <elliott> link? HAHA YOU HAVE TO FIND IT NOW
17:55:15 <Gregor> elliott: Look at the new favicon goombas.
17:55:26 <elliott> Gregor: What total size are they?
17:56:12 <elliott> I was expecting something like a square with legs below it and arms left and right
17:56:14 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conservapedia.com/Essay:_10_telltale_signs_you_are_on_your_way_to_becoming_an_atheist_nerd
17:56:30 <elliott> not some hideous mutant favicon creature that looks like a headless body below something irrelevant
17:56:52 <Gregor> elliott: Depends on the favicon :P
17:57:10 <elliott> Especially with codu.org because the hat has a fucking hat.
17:57:17 <elliott> Also they move far too slowly, waht's with that?
17:57:24 <elliott> They were much faster before.
17:58:06 <elliott> Did I mention they're terrible and you should feel bad?
17:58:30 <Phantom_Hoover> The hat with a hat is awesome. Do not pretend otherwise.
17:58:34 <Gregor> I think they're made of 100% pure win.
17:58:52 <elliott> Gregor: 'Sok, I'll just upload WebSplak 1.0.
17:58:59 <elliott> It's exactly like WebSplat except one revision earlier.
17:59:17 <elliott> Gregor: You fail horribly. Alt-tabbing away no longer pauses the game.
17:59:25 <elliott> I suggest you rollback to whatever fixes both that and the now-terrible favicons :P
17:59:41 <Gregor> How the hell did that happen???
18:00:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Gregor, take the atheist nerd test while playing WebSplat.
18:00:24 <Gregor> elliott: In spite of your idiocy, an "emergency rollback" would not remove the awesome new goombas.
18:00:33 <Gregor> Since I made a lot of speed fixes for Firefox later which probably broke that.
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18:00:48 <elliott> Gregor: Well... roll back that one too, just to be sure.
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18:01:31 <Gregor> elliott: I'll say it again, this time with flare: fuck you.
18:01:42 <elliott> Gregor: Also you have rabies.
18:02:08 <elliott> Gregor: And, uh, I think you mean flair.
18:04:33 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, I died because I was within a few pixels of the goomba.
18:04:41 <elliott> Gregor: I'm pretty sure it's because the hat sticks out.
18:07:23 <elliott> That's because you're a commie.
18:16:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I was 5 images from completing WP's Pythagoras' theorem article and I died because my head was near its feet.
18:16:13 <elliott> Gregor: 476@1242D, and I died by not walking in to a dog.
18:16:18 <elliott> Gregor: Your collision detection sucks.
18:18:38 <elliott> felt like you lost after one hit
18:19:37 <elliott> Gregor: is collision detection always with the biggest form of your character?
18:19:43 <elliott> because when you walk you're a lot wider!
18:22:28 <Phantom_Hoover> isthatcherdeadyet's favigoombas are quite entertaining.
18:23:43 <elliott> 287@393D, fuck this collision detection.
18:24:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wow, they really hate thatcher. personally. a lot. don't they
18:25:22 <Gregor> elliott: A) You're the same width walking as jumping and standing.
18:25:30 <Gregor> elliott: B) It's always with the current image size.
18:25:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i'm unable to conjure up such vitrolic hate for a politician considering how slim the spectrum is.
18:25:46 <elliott> and, uh, at least we survived.
18:26:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also: i don't like celebrating the death of anyone.
18:26:19 <elliott> or the misfortune of anyone.
18:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, I suppose we who weren't there when she was in charge wouldn't have the same vitriol for her.
18:27:05 <elliott> heh, they're both north-easterners. LIKE ME (not really)
18:27:15 <elliott> (i've just lived here approximately all my life, doesn't mean I'm One Of Them!)
18:27:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't wish Bush would die or anything either.
18:28:12 <elliott> He's a fucking moron and he did a great job of ruining the USA's semi-sanity and prosperity, but I wouldn't wish anything like that on him. Certainly he should be punished, jailed, but...
18:28:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. But still.
18:28:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, she devastated whole communities, ruined lives.
18:28:38 <elliott> No, I can't imagine it. They'd have to blow up the country to make me wish for their death, most likely.
18:28:49 <elliott> I am the disgustingly forgiving liberal type though.
18:29:16 <elliott> http://www.tit-wank.com/ what a domain name to host mailing lists on.
18:29:40 <elliott> 1,015.0 MiB of 3.1 GiB (31.84%) - 6 hours remaining
18:30:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, accounts I've read elsewhere in the webosphere from people who were on the receiving end of her policies do seem to justify such hatred.
18:31:11 <elliott> I get it, Thatcher destroyed the country.
18:32:10 <Gregor> Compare Thatcher to Palin, then go "OH THANK GOD WE GOT THATCHER"
18:32:28 <elliott> thatcher was probably worse.
18:32:37 <Gregor> Palin hasn't had any actual position of power.
18:32:48 <Gregor> Palin is ACTIVELY incompetent though.
18:32:55 <Gregor> She wouldn't just sit on her hands going "Idonnowtf"
18:33:00 <Gregor> She would break everything.
18:33:06 <elliott> She was a moron who didn't think properly.
18:33:11 <elliott> And she was selfish, greedy, etc.
18:33:27 <elliott> But I cannot believe that she actively tried to destroy the UK for the sheer hell of it.
18:33:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It really doesn't.
18:33:36 <elliott> Evil is a very specific thing and it is not carelessness, selfishness, or greed.
18:34:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Hitler was arguably not evil by that definition, though.
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18:34:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Well. Only arguably.
18:35:05 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
18:36:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, Freespace 2 is a textbook example of Greenspun's Tenth Rule.
18:38:12 <Gregor> elliott: There, I made the standing bounding box more precise.
18:38:55 <Gregor> Mind you, the collision detection will ALWAYS be box-box.
18:40:38 <elliott> ...things that are ridiculous: URL shortener administrators can get their servers suspended because *someone else* used them to *create a URL* to something illegal.
18:40:51 <elliott> How to destroy a URL shortener: Link it to copyrighted material, child porn, etc.; publicise links.
18:41:22 <elliott> ("I was arrested for copyright infringement and possession of child pornography!")
18:41:47 <elliott> ("Now I'm in jail for life and have to pay £1,000,000,000. Oh, and there's some community service for the child porn, too."
18:45:20 <elliott> 1.1 GiB of 3.1 GiB (34.48%) - 5 hours remaining
18:45:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: MAKE IT GO FASTER
18:45:32 <Gregor> elliott: I don't HAVE polygons. I have sprites and boxes.
18:45:41 <elliott> Gregor: Your face doesn't have polygons.
18:46:03 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, you do know that the usual game programming trick is to do collisions on boxes slightly *smaller* than each sprite?
18:46:07 <elliott> Gregor: That produces much better results.
18:46:19 <Gregor> elliott: I did not know, that, but consider it known now, lesse...
18:46:31 <elliott> Gregor: In this case, I'd say the box would, for the player, not include the hat, and not include... uh, the nose or anything.
18:46:38 <elliott> Also, if the chest pokes out a little -- I don't recall -- that wouldn't be in it.
18:46:46 <elliott> Also shoes, if the shoes poke out; the poking-out bit you wouldn't include.
18:46:56 <elliott> Don't have to do anything to the bottom since if that hits an enemy you'll kill it anyway.
18:50:50 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:54:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have an important, Scotland-related question.
18:54:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you guys really put pizzas in batter and then fry them?
18:55:24 <zzo38> I read the article linked at the end of yesterday's log about Wall Street requiring Python.
18:56:50 <zzo38> It may be right that COBOL would be a good idea since it was designed for this purpose.
18:58:48 <zzo38> I don't know what would be the financial equivalent of "list comprehensions" or "co-routines". Do you have an idea?
18:59:27 <elliott> I'm not even sure how law-code is meant to work.
19:03:47 <zzo38> I don't know how you are supposed to "substitution of Python or another programming language for legal English as a basis for some of its regulations". I wonder if a literate programming language might work better here (even literate Haskell??)
19:05:00 <cheater99> it's like i'm reading the ada wikipedia article
19:06:38 <zzo38> If this is done with some of these regulations, then some of the legal disputes can be solved by computer; but it would still take a judge to determine if it is necessary to change the law.
19:07:01 <Gregor> Oh, whew, just caching issues :P
19:07:11 -!- dbc has joined.
19:07:17 <Gregor> elliott: I was on a ... rather severe diet.
19:07:22 <Gregor> (Image width was set to something silly)
19:07:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, eat some battered pizza, it'll fatten you right up.
19:09:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I have often been told that *I* will be battered, but I suspect that to be a simple coincidence.
19:09:43 <elliott> battered fried phantom hoovers
19:09:52 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Sexy, threatening or predictive?
19:10:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Right, the person saying it is in Glasgow.
19:10:06 <Gregor> elliott: Clear thine cache :P
19:10:13 <elliott> Gregor: Sexy, threatening, predictive anorexia.
19:10:24 <Phantom_Hoover> But they enjoy battering things in all sense of the word in Glasgow, so it's not a big deal.
19:10:47 <elliott> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=622130510713940545
19:10:55 <elliott> The story of Karen Carpenter's anorexia, told with Barbies.
19:11:58 <zzo38> Well..... I have had the idea of matrix accounting.......
19:12:10 <elliott> "...but that was in my irresponsible youth..."
19:12:43 <elliott> 74 KiB/s is not an acceptable speed!
19:13:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I always found the deep-fried Mars Bars considerably more distressing.
19:13:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Relevant and hilarious: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1227_041227_deep_fried_mars_bars.html
19:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The researchers discovered similarly bizarre examples of calorie-laden fast food cuisine, such as batter-fried ice cream, pizza, and pineapple rings. ]]
19:15:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I am informed that 20 years ago it was a commonplace occurrence in Edinburgh, too.
19:15:52 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The deep-fried Mars bar is believed to have originated in the northeast Scottish village of Stonehaven, following a bet struck between a chip shop owner and a customer. The Carron Fish and Chip Bar today sells as many as 300 deep-fried Mars bars a week. They cost 70 pence each (U.S. $1.38), or £1.70 (U.S. $3.30) when served with fries. ]]
19:16:08 <elliott> [[It’s also confusing a specific kind of piracy, (putting the entire work up online with proper attribution) to the kind of thing that is rather rampant for artists, namely, people stealing their work, and then the thieves remove the original artist’s name, and put THEIR name on it with THEIR copyright and say “don’t steal art”.]]
19:16:14 <Phantom_Hoover> [["Encouragingly, we did also find some evidence of the penetration of the Mediterranean diet into Scotland, albeit in the form of deep-fried pizza," said Petticrew, director of the social and public health services unit of the UK Medical Research Council, a government health research body. ]]
19:16:24 <elliott> The next person to conflate piracy with plagiarism will get their head raped by a mechanical chainsaw.
19:16:36 <elliott> Yes, a MECHANICAL chainsaw!
19:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> That quote is possibly the funniest thing I have read this week.
19:19:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How... encouraging?
19:20:04 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> I always found the deep-fried Mars Bars considerably more distressing.
19:20:12 <elliott> I want to try one on a very deep level.
19:25:19 <zzo38> I still like matrix accounting and it is possible to make various equations with it........ Who guessed you might use Dirac notation in accounting, before?
19:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, you are now promoted to the status of "god among men".
19:27:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Congrats, you just gave zzo38 the ability to change matter at will.
19:28:43 <zzo38> That doesn't give me (or anyone else) "the ability to change matter at will".
19:29:19 <zzo38> Nor can I be any god, even if my title is "god among men".
19:29:35 <zzo38> That's just a title.
19:30:36 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, but you got promoted.
19:30:39 <elliott> You are now a literal god.
19:31:24 <zzo38> elliott: OK I don't hurt you.
19:31:37 <elliott> Let's just hope zzo38 doesn't find a way to rewrite how information is stored. I bet that would last six hundred years and they'd all suck.
19:35:20 <zzo38> No, actually I am not literal god. It is just a title.
19:37:59 <elliott> [[A hardened computer hacker has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that systematically destroys all the files on victims' PCs and replaces them with homemade manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Between 20,000 and 50,000 computers may have been infected.
19:38:00 <elliott> Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."]]
19:38:11 <elliott> lol: [[He was collared in 2008 for violating copyright laws by creating a computer virus that replaced data with an anime image. He was serving a suspended sentence for that offense when he was arrested in connection with the latest virus.]]
19:38:16 <elliott> I like how it was copyright infringement they got him for.
19:38:39 <zzo38> OK, now I have that title. Of course it doesn't mean anything.
19:38:50 <elliott> You just don't see the Esoterick Truth yet.
19:38:57 <elliott> It will reveal itself -- in time. Then: be careful.
19:40:45 <zzo38> Now I would see if I had win a big spider 2.9 times as big as I am.
19:40:57 <elliott> where does this big spider thing come from
19:41:19 <zzo38> It is just my own idea
19:45:11 <elliott> "When I was ill, I went looking for a doctor.
19:45:12 <elliott> I could not find anyone who did what I wanted.
19:45:12 <elliott> So I have worked to become the doctor I wanted to find."
19:46:20 <zzo38> elliott: That is one day, I guess, it might or might not work.
19:46:40 <zzo38> It might be good idea if you have no doctor, learn to be a doctor.
19:47:29 <elliott> zzo38: He had a perfectly good set of actual doctors at his disposal. What he wanted was a quack, and thus he has become a "naturopath", i.e. anti-scientific quack.
19:47:57 <elliott> The U.S. state of Maine, in its eternal helpful idiocy, has decided that this is enough to qualify one to be a doctor, and thus he is, actually, a "Dr.", but not a *doctor* in any real sense at all.
19:47:59 <zzo38> elliott: O, that is what he wanted.
19:48:14 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:48:21 <zzo38> elliott: Then the state of Main is idiot.
19:49:47 <elliott> Well, insofar as a state can be an idiot.
19:50:22 -!- Gregor has joined.
19:50:51 <Gregor> That was me switching back to my bouncer :P
19:51:09 <Gregor> Opinions on the new bounding box?
19:51:54 <elliott> Gregor: I will totally try it now
19:52:08 <Gregor> cheater99: Then play WebSplat instead?
19:52:10 <elliott> When I've tried it, all its fucks will be removed.
19:52:24 <Gregor> elliott: Should I rename it to Websplat to take advantage of the web-splat webs-plat ambiguity?
19:52:34 <elliott> Gregor: No, give it an actual name :P
19:52:46 <elliott> Gregor: Spiderman; you see, the web, spiders...
19:52:48 <Gregor> GregorKillsElliott: The Movie: The Game
19:52:53 <elliott> Gregor: It still doesn't pause by the way
19:53:01 <Gregor> If it doesn't, your cache is outdated.
19:53:06 <elliott> Also, uh, I'm anorexic. Yeah. Cache.
19:53:16 <elliott> gahahaha he fattens up when he falls
19:54:22 <elliott> Gregor: I half-wish I participated in such stupidity as Facebook just so I could play this on it...
19:54:39 <Gregor> elliott: It's ... scary on Facebook :P
19:54:47 <Gregor> It does in fact work, but there are some inaccessible images :(
19:55:04 <elliott> Gregor: Before long you'll be adding site-specific hacks :P
19:55:06 <cheater99> someone doesn't have friends to add
19:55:09 <elliott> Whoa, it's loading really slowly this time. Guess cause it's not cached.
19:55:29 <elliott> Gregor: It doesn't pause if you alt-tab *before* it's finished loading, FWIW.
19:55:31 <elliott> Not that that's a big deal.
19:55:48 <Gregor> Ohyeah, I guess it doesn't X-D
19:55:57 <Gregor> elliott: The other reason for slowness is that I don't have all the modules put in one file, so it has to download them and load them one-by-one.
19:56:04 <Gregor> When things are a bit more stable, I'll compile.
19:56:07 <elliott> Gregor: Umm, when I fall down on --
19:56:10 <elliott> the column with Pakistani Police
19:56:17 <elliott> When I get one of those icon images from below
19:56:20 <elliott> I sort of ... shake downwards.
19:56:59 <Gregor> Scroll-type shaking or avatar-type shaking? Also, have all the images finished downloading, sometimes things'll look weird before they do (for obvious reasons)
19:57:32 <elliott> Gregor: Like, I go up and down repeatedly while going down slowly.
19:57:42 <elliott> Like my character's jumping at LUDICROUS SPEED for a very short distance.
19:58:03 <elliott> Gregor: Ooh, also when I walk into "Religious" from standing on Afghanistan next to History.
19:58:13 <elliott> Gregor: (That's *after* I get rid of all the icons.)
19:58:56 <elliott> Gregor: It, uh, happens in most situations.
19:59:16 <Gregor> I didn't test this change on havenworks :P
20:01:11 <Gregor> I think I know the issue too.
20:03:31 <Gregor> Clearing cache is a bad idea when you're about to go to havenworks X_X
20:03:52 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, we need to preserve the current havenworks homepage.
20:04:15 <elliott> Admittedly it appears to have last been updated in 2009-03-31, but still.
20:04:16 <Gregor> I believe I fixed it, further testing ...
20:04:20 <elliott> Gregor: Doesn't store every day.
20:14:17 -!- elliott_ has joined.
20:14:23 <elliott_> Gregor: You broke my fucking interwebs.
20:14:36 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:14:39 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to alise.
20:14:40 <Gregor> I was wondering what window.disconnect() did.
20:14:55 <alise> "6 days remaining"
20:14:58 <alise> "7 days remaining"
20:15:02 <alise> MY TORRENT HATES YOU
20:15:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Vonlebio.
20:16:48 <Vonlebio> Dear god, this channel is full of 13-year-olds.
20:17:10 <alise> Did I mention labia?
20:17:36 <alise> Gregor: It still doesn't pause if you're tabbed away when it starts :P
20:17:46 <alise> Gregor: Uhh, dude, moving in a direction just makes me go fat.
20:17:54 <alise> Oh, now it doesn't.
20:17:56 <alise> That was awesome though.
20:18:43 <alise> Gregor: The bounding boxes seem better, but a hatted-favicon still killed me without strictly touching any part of me :P
20:18:44 <alise> Much better, though.
20:20:10 <alise> Gregor: Getting the little tag-icons from posts is much easier now. Thank god.
20:21:04 <Vonlebio> Is there an easy way to mass-move files?
20:21:30 <Gregor> alise: That was what happens when not all the images are downloaded ;)
20:21:34 <Gregor> Vonlebio: ... yes. mv *.foo foo/
20:21:47 <alise> Gregor: Surely you mean :) or are you just being creepy :P
20:21:52 <Vonlebio> Gregor, that's not what that does, IIRC.
20:22:13 <Gregor> Vonlebio: That moves every file matching the pattern *.foo into the directory foo/
20:22:46 <Gregor> alise: ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
20:22:52 <Vonlebio> Gregor, surely it expands to "mv foo.foo bar.foo foo/"?
20:22:53 <alise> Gregor: Sorry, I'm gay.
20:22:56 <alise> Vonlebio: Yes it does.
20:23:02 <alise> mv ... x moves all ... to x.
20:23:14 <Vonlebio> I recall it not working once...
20:23:25 <Gregor> Vonlebio: If it didn't work, it's because you're made of fail.
20:23:57 <Vonlebio> I am obviously made of fail, then.
20:24:03 -!- Vonlebio has changed nick to Phantom_Failer.
20:24:21 <Gregor> So much fail that you can't spell "failure" *tisk tisk*
20:24:48 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: WAY TO FAIL AT RECOGNIZING A JOKE ABOUT FAILING FAIL FAIL FAIL
20:25:25 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: FAIL TO FAIL AT FAIL FAIL FAILING FAIL
20:26:27 <alise> Gregor: 365@597Dammit.
20:27:16 <alise> see whut i did there
20:27:27 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
20:27:44 <Gregor> alise: I DO AND THE LAWLZ
20:28:04 <alise> Gregor: I... what :P
20:28:21 <Gregor> I need a high score system.
20:31:14 <alise> Gregor: Don't destroy the IRC-based fun
20:31:18 <alise> Gregor: How will you stop it being exploited?
20:31:27 <alise> Gregor: Well then.
20:31:53 <Gregor> Conveniently, your distaste for it coincides with my own laziness.
20:32:08 <alise> Gregor: I knew your laziness would prevail.
20:33:01 <alise> Gregor: Question: What explanation is there for only dogs having corpses? :P
20:33:14 <Gregor> alise: quintopia hasn't drawn crushed-favicon-guy yet.
20:33:16 <alise> In-game explanation.
20:33:33 <alise> Gregor: YOU TOTALLY NEED TO DISTORT THE FAVICON IMAGE SERVER-SIDE SO HURR
20:33:40 <alise> (In case the hurr didn't give it away)
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20:35:29 <alise> Gregor: I've just realised that HavenWorks is totally dormant :(
20:35:47 <alise> Gregor: But it's iconic!
20:36:03 <alise> Like, uh, the World Trade Centre! Wait...
20:36:10 <alise> jews did havenworks
20:37:26 <alise> Gregor: God DAMMIT I fell on to a dog and it killed me.
20:38:24 <Gregor> You probably fell /next/ to it and thought you fell /on/ it :P
20:43:02 <alise> Gregor: 381@448D FUCKING
20:43:09 <alise> it's walking on my corpse
20:45:18 <alise> things that need to die:
20:45:20 <alise> - kinetic typography.
20:46:15 -!- calamari has joined.
20:46:24 <Gregor> calamari: http://codu.org/websplat/ NAO
20:46:43 <calamari> yeah I tried it just now that's why I logged in
20:46:47 <alise> calamari: HAVENWORKS
20:46:50 <alise> http://havenworks.com/
20:46:52 <alise> it is the only acceptable page to play on
20:47:01 <alise> Note: Bring Chrome.
20:47:03 <calamari> its pretty cool, except the winning screen is super annoying lol
20:47:14 <Gregor> calamari: ITYM super-awesome.
20:47:19 <alise> calamari: Super awesome.
20:47:22 <alise> Phantom_Failer: You see YouTube videos a lot with it.
20:47:39 <alise> Phantom_Failer: Where they take someone's speech and put little words on the screen and oh look they're using that word to build the new sentence and it's rotated.
20:47:50 <olsner> alise: why the hating on kinetic typography?
20:47:57 <alise> Now the letters are going in spirals and you're zooming in and it's swiped off because they've dug themselves into a hole and now the text is building itself like a Scrabble board and
20:48:08 <alise> how did my name get set to alise again
20:48:13 <alise> oh i /nick'd to it
20:48:13 <Phantom_Failer> alise, you seriously expect consistently good æsthetics in *YouTube*?
20:48:23 <alise> Phantom_Failer: no but you get it from the "artsy" people
20:48:33 <alise> it's unspeakably irritating
20:48:45 <calamari> so I assume the webpage logo enemies are kinda like goombas, and the dog? skeleton enemies are like turtles except you don't have a shell?
20:48:51 <alise> Latest horrific example: http://vimeo.com/15412319
20:49:00 <alise> calamari: They're all just goombas :P
20:49:09 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
20:49:22 <calamari> alise: not exactly.. the webpage logo ones will fall off ledges, the dogs won't
20:49:29 <alise> calamari: well, ok, yes.
20:49:31 <alise> that's because dogs are stupid.
20:49:37 <alise> also, *favicon goombas
20:50:05 -!- Harpyon has joined.
20:50:12 <olsner> alise: another stephen fry on language: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHQ2756cyD8
20:50:17 <alise> Precision has helped the torrent client avoid being satanic.
20:50:30 <alise> olsner: i love stephen fry and all.
20:50:32 <alise> olsner: but that "kinetic" "typography"
20:50:36 <alise> is a load of crap.
20:51:12 <Phantom_Failer> FWIW, HavenWorks is rather better than Townships for me.
20:51:29 <olsner> but with so much crap floating around, isn't it better to just ignore it than to go around being all upset about it? :)
20:51:58 <alise> Phantom_Failer: It... you have no idea how impossible it is. Scroll down past the columns.
20:52:02 <alise> The columns aren't even a half of it.
20:52:16 <alise> olsner: i'm not upset, it's just irritating when it gets on reddit's frontpage!
20:53:43 <Phantom_Failer> Also, why does Chrome make it so difficult to bookmark WebSplat?
20:56:09 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: You just need to re-enable the off-by-default bookmarks bar.
20:56:53 <Gregor> What a bizarre article to be the longest.
20:57:52 <Gregor> That makes more sense.
20:58:32 <Phantom_Failer> There are 7 images at the very top and 2 at the very bottom, and 5600 lines of townlands in between.
20:59:32 <calamari> why is it that the wikipedia logo can't be collected?
21:00:01 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
21:00:01 <Gregor> Only images that are <img> tags can be collected.
21:00:25 <Gregor> That logo is an <a> tag with a CSS background-image
21:00:32 <Phantom_Failer> Gregor, you should try Townlands. The long fall is very relaxing.
21:00:33 -!- Harpyon has joined.
21:01:14 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: How long does it take to load? :P
21:01:54 * alise adds a bookmark bar *just* for websplhaahht
21:02:04 <alise> I'll have you know, Gregor, that I hate bookmark bars.
21:02:10 <alise> Ew no it looks strange *disables*
21:02:25 <Gregor> alise: I did the same for "Kick ass" :P
21:02:55 <Gregor> alise: http://erkie.github.com/
21:02:57 <alise> Phantom_Failer: You drag the WebSplat! link.
21:02:59 <calamari> yeah I hate them too but this is worth it
21:03:00 <alise> Gregor: Hmm, what did you do to the scroll constraint thing?
21:03:03 <alise> It doesn't flicker any more.
21:03:12 <alise> calamari: I've just been copy-pasting the javascript :P
21:03:13 <Phantom_Failer> alise, how do I enable it on Chrome in the first place?
21:03:29 <alise> Phantom_Failer: Protip: Spanner
21:03:39 <Gregor> alise: I made it assert the viewport when the browser scrolls itself as well as when the character moves.
21:03:49 * calamari wonders how Gregor has time to do grad school and this
21:04:02 <alise> Phantom_Failer: Spanner, not preferences.
21:04:08 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: Ctrl+B
21:04:32 <alise> Gregor: Yes shift.
21:04:34 <alise> I'm on Chrome right now.
21:04:35 <Gregor> Ctrl+B shows or hides the bookmark bar.
21:04:36 <alise> Ctrl+B does nothing.
21:04:38 <alise> Ctrl+Shift+B works.
21:04:44 <Gregor> I'm on Chrome right now and Ctrl+B shows or hides the bookmark bar ...
21:04:51 <alise> "Always show bookmarks bar Shift+Ctrl+B"
21:05:05 <alise> Gregor: 7.0.517.41; stable. I'm a weenie.
21:05:06 * Gregor takes a screenshot as you're per usual being an ass about it.
21:05:36 <Phantom_Failer> Incidentally, WebSplat on Chrome for Townlands is slower than Firefox, I think.
21:05:52 <calamari> Gregor: btw my son likes your game too
21:06:01 <alise> Gregor: omg kick ass is amazing.
21:06:12 <calamari> "I want the guy to get the pictures"
21:06:12 <alise> Gregor: I get it, you're on a different build.
21:06:12 <Gregor> alise: 'twas my inspiration.
21:06:19 <alise> Shift+Ctrl+B works; Ctrl+B does not.
21:06:25 <alise> In my menu, it shows "Shift+Ctrl+B", not "Ctrl+B".
21:06:27 <alise> I am on the version I said.
21:06:29 <alise> Phantom_Failer: http://erkie.github.com/
21:06:57 <alise> Gregor: kick ass is easier though
21:06:59 <alise> you just rotate and fire
21:07:04 <alise> then accelerate a bit to get the rest
21:07:13 <Gregor> alise: It's also impossible to lose, and has a lot less work to do to be possible :P
21:07:27 <Gregor> Also: WebSplat doesn't work on IE9 beta. *whew*
21:07:35 <alise> Gregor: OMG OMG OMG
21:07:39 <alise> Gregor: Call the player Dominic
21:08:12 <alise> Gregor: Or Dhtmljohn.
21:09:52 <alise> Gregor: By the way, why does crouch-jump work?
21:09:58 <alise> You have to DOUBLE-jump to get above platforms.
21:10:02 <alise> So it's not just that you're lower.
21:10:24 <Gregor> alise: I decided to mentally rewrite "double-jump" as "air-jump" *shrugs*
21:10:31 <Gregor> alise: Besides, without that in some cases you're completely friggin' stuck.
21:10:39 <alise> Oh, of course, I like it.
21:10:44 <alise> I was just wondering *why* it worked.
21:11:09 <Gregor> Originally it only worked as a proper double-jump, I actually changed it to be air-jump.
21:11:45 * Gregor proudly puts a note saying WebSplat is IE9-failure-certified.
21:12:43 -!- gurksen has joined.
21:13:01 -!- gurksen has left (?).
21:14:17 <alise> Gregor: So what's the current high score? 600 something?
21:15:08 <Gregor> alise: Still only 400 something.
21:15:13 <alise> Phantom_Failer: Suuuuure.
21:15:16 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: On HavenWorks?
21:15:26 <alise> Gregor: You said at least 500 something.
21:15:50 <alise> 21:19:03 <Gregor> 533@1495D
21:18:36 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:18:52 <quintopia> Gregor: two people came into the bar saturday night dressed as mario and luigi. i gave them a link to websplat and told them it worked in IE9 >_>
21:19:16 <Gregor> Why would you tell them that? :P
21:19:28 <quintopia> i was drunk, and you never informed me that it didn't
21:19:59 <Gregor> Only if it's trivially simple *shrugs*
21:20:28 <quintopia> seems like it should be a fairly high priority. IE still has the lion's share of the browser market...
21:21:54 <quintopia> question: if 7.2% of someone's messages in a channel contain a reference to another person in that channel, is that "infatuation" or "obsession"?
21:22:57 <Gregor> quintopia: Yes, but if you multiply userbase by intelligence it's a tiny minority.
21:24:24 <Gregor> "Unknown runtime error"
21:25:26 <Gregor> Oh, it works in standards mode.
21:25:38 <Gregor> So for all 0% of the pages that load in standards mode on piece-of-shit-IE9, it'll work.
21:25:39 <alise> <quintopia> seems like it should be a fairly high priority. IE still has the lion's share of the browser market...
21:25:48 <alise> Yes, in #esoteric, all our hobby projects are optimised for user base.
21:25:53 <alise> Because there's money to be made.
21:29:43 <alise> 2.9 GiB of 3.1 GiB (93.51%) - 9 minutes remaining
21:29:49 <pikhq> So, I'm thinking about trying to create an IM client that doesn't suck.
21:30:01 <Gregor> pikhq: G'luck with that.
21:30:13 <pikhq> BTW. Sita Sings the Blues, 1080p24, lossless? 25G.
21:30:20 <zzo38> pikhq: What kind of IM client? And what ideas do you have?
21:30:22 <alise> pikhq: Of all the battles, m'friend, IMs aren't the one.
21:30:52 <pikhq> alise: I would especially love a general communication client that doesn't suck at one or the other.
21:31:01 <alise> pikhq: It is advisable for sanity that you just use Pidgin: a sucky one, yes, but -- you will have to use libpurple and it will suck, or you will have to write your own and HAHAHAHAHA the protocols.
21:31:02 -!- Harpyon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:31:10 <zzo38> I wrote an IRC client.
21:31:11 <alise> pikhq: IRC is a battle that ought to be fought separately.
21:31:17 <alise> pikhq: It's a different beast entirely.
21:31:18 <pikhq> alise: The protocols are seperate libraries that libpurple happens to use.
21:31:25 <alise> And no, group conversations don't count; they're *small*.
21:31:35 <alise> olsner: fierce competition for seeders
21:31:40 <pikhq> First and foremost: the buddy list is a ridiculous UI concept.
21:31:46 <alise> olsner: I can get 800 KiB/s, but I'm getting 100 KiB/s.
21:31:49 <alise> pikhq: Your face is a ridiculous UI concept.
21:31:53 <pikhq> Namely, the presence of it as a seperate window.
21:31:55 <olsner> alise: aww, sucks to be you
21:32:03 <alise> olsner: I demand asylum.
21:32:17 <olsner> I am not in any position to grant it
21:32:37 <pikhq> So, what I'm currently thinking: On the side of the single UI window, you have the list of connected people. This is your buddy list slash tab bar.
21:32:44 <alise> olsner: all Swedes represent Sweden.
21:32:45 <zzo38> I wrote a IRC client and you can see if it is good or if it is suck also like everything else both IRC and IM.
21:32:53 <alise> pikhq: sorted by most recently clicked?
21:33:13 <alise> I have a mental concept of "conversations I am having" separate from "people".
21:33:40 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:34:01 <pikhq> alise: Perhaps a "create new conversation" button? And it's instead a conversation list?
21:34:14 <alise> pikhq: So now talking to new people is inconvenient?
21:34:22 <pikhq> alise: UI DESIGN IS HARD
21:34:24 <alise> pikhq: Oh hell, I don't know. Anyway it's a really boring battle to fight and Pidgin "works".
21:34:37 <pikhq> I STILL USE BITLBEE
21:34:39 <alise> pikhq: It sucks, yes, but no more than the actual protocols :)
21:34:45 -!- wareya has joined.
21:35:26 <pikhq> Hmm. Has it started to suck less recently?
21:35:31 <Gregor> alise: He really does dance on your corpse X-D
21:35:33 <alise> pikhq: ...well, sort of.
21:35:46 <alise> pikhq: It certainly sucks, hugely and immensely. But you can configure it to... stop annoying you.
21:36:04 <pikhq> alise: From a UI standpoint. Its IM library as far as I know doesn't suck too bad.
21:36:05 * Gregor doesn't understand people who are so bothered by innocuous things :P
21:36:14 <alise> pikhq: Oh it does. (But not so much now.)
21:36:22 <alise> pikhq: Firstly, disable the sounds for buddy online/offline. Then make sure you install the libnotify thing and set it up for messages only. Set the buddy list to compact mode.
21:36:34 <alise> pikhq: Set the minimum height of the chat line to 1. Hide the formatting toolbar in the chat window.
21:36:39 <alise> pikhq: Configure tabs/no tabs according to your preference.
21:36:49 <pikhq> Aaaw, I'd been wanting to avoid libnotify entirely.
21:36:57 <alise> pikhq: libnotify is good for you. srsly
21:37:02 <alise> pikhq: You could use guifications but hahahaha
21:37:08 -!- Harpyon has joined.
21:37:25 <alise> pikhq: You could try ayttm :P
21:37:57 <pikhq> alise: Is it actually any good? libnotify, that is.
21:38:32 <alise> pikhq: The API is fine, albeit iirc it has some dbus stuff in it (but everything has dbus nowadays...). People misuse it and send markup and shit even if the server says it doesn't show markup, but the servers are clever enough to make things just work.
21:38:38 <alise> pikhq: How they are displayed is up to you.
21:38:49 <zzo38> There is a way you can avoid \outer with TeX, by doing things like \def\b#1{\csname newtoks\endcsname#1} and like \def\c#1{\dd#1}\let\dd=\newtoks
21:39:00 <alise> pikhq: You could use the "usual" one, notification-daemon.
21:39:13 <alise> pikhq: Or you could use Ubuntu's notify-osd.
21:39:17 <zzo38> You can also avoid problems with \outer by using \input
21:39:18 <alise> pikhq: Or you could code your own.
21:39:28 <alise> pikhq: (Although that last one will require dbus and stuff and thus be slightly painful.)
21:40:16 <alise> pikhq: So I'd say that libnotify is actually alright. Obviously it could be done in simpler ways, but it's not all that bad.
21:40:53 <alise> pikhq: Don't you use Xfce?
21:40:57 <alise> I would imagine you already have libnotify installed.
21:41:26 <alise> pikhq: I'd enable it. :P
21:42:18 <alise> zzo38: What's wrong with \outer?
21:42:24 <zzo38> I know because I don't like other IRC clients either, that is why I wrote my own.
21:42:31 <zzo38> alise: I don't like the \outer command.
21:42:36 <alise> zzo38: What's wrong with \outer?
21:42:44 <alise> The command itself.
21:42:49 <pikhq> alise: Anyways. My conception on how things should work is very simple: do as little as possible without sucking.
21:43:37 <alise> pikhq: Note: Unix sucks.
21:43:48 <zzo38> alise: If I was designing TeX, instead of Knuth, it would not have a \outer command. The \outer command can cause a lot of problems.
21:44:01 <alise> zzo38: What problems?
21:44:25 <zzo38> You can type \let\outer=\relax to change a file to make it notusing \outer but that won't change things that are already loaded from the format file
21:45:00 <pikhq> alise: That's the only problem.
21:45:19 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:45:26 <pikhq> alise: People can't make it do as little as possible. :P
21:45:30 <zzo38> alise: That it prevents you from typing \def\qb#1{\expandafter\newtoks\csname first.#1\endcsname\expandafter\newtoks\csname second.#1\endcsname}
21:45:30 <Sgeo> Gregor, you should record the song in http://objects.activeworlds.com/aw/sounds/worlds3.zip
21:45:45 <alise> zzo38: why would i want to type that?
21:45:54 <Sgeo> alise is alise again
21:46:04 -!- alise has changed nick to elliott.
21:46:05 <Sgeo> And I'm back in my role as Captain Obvious again
21:46:06 <Gregor> Sgeo: Yeah, not sure why that happened.
21:46:06 <zzo38> alise: It is just hypothetical. But it is one of the things.
21:46:17 <Gregor> Sgeo: BTW, I told Sine that you only listen to gangsta rap.
21:47:27 <Sgeo> What genre are the songs in http://djsethgold.com/demo/DjsethGoldLive.mp3 ?
21:47:56 <elliott> things that make me rage: "songs" for "tracks"
21:48:29 <elliott> Sgeo: what the fuck at that.
21:48:35 <elliott> (15 seconds onwards or whatever)
21:49:02 <Sgeo> Just some guy with the same name
21:49:10 <elliott> Do not listen to Sgeo's lies.
21:49:42 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: Your MOM's voice is not... I don't know
21:49:46 <elliott> It's not something, anyway.
21:53:12 <elliott> pikhq: Have you ever used st?
21:54:25 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah. It has some flaws as of yet.
21:54:44 <pikhq> elliott: And it doesn't do Unicode, which is a massive failing.
21:57:12 * Sgeo listens to the Logication music <3
21:57:19 <elliott> pikhq: I'm trying to run OS X in a VM without hardware virtualisation.
21:57:39 <elliott> ("You're insane" will suffice.)
21:57:40 <Sgeo> Someone needs to make a logication clone
21:57:54 <elliott> Hey, the spinner...ticker...vague progress thing.
21:57:56 <Sgeo> Then again, the rules might be under copyright or something
21:58:04 <elliott> Sgeo: you can't copyright a game
21:58:17 <Sgeo> So what's the deal with Arimaa in that case?
21:58:31 <elliott> Vague question; unanswerable.
21:58:38 <elliott> pikhq: I have totally conquered Steve Jobs.
21:58:46 <Sgeo> I was under the impression that Arimaa was under some sort of copyright
21:58:49 <elliott> I have caged your OS inside a window on my Toshiba laptop! Mwahahaha!
21:58:53 <elliott> Sgeo: The pieces, certainly.
21:59:03 <elliott> Sgeo: Their wording of the ruleset, yes.
21:59:11 <Sgeo> Ok, makes sense
21:59:15 <elliott> Holy shit slowest boot ever.
21:59:33 <Sgeo> With logication, the design of the pieces ... is kind of hard to avoid copying
21:59:34 <zzo38> If I write X terminal program some day, maybe I can look at "st" codes to see how it is done. And then write it in Enhanced CWEB. It should support bitmaps fonts, single and double width, but no URL mode. I have different opinions what features a X terminal program should have and not have.
21:59:39 <Sgeo> Well, maybe not the exact pixels
22:00:04 <Sgeo> But they're baiscally line segments pointing in whatever ddirection
22:00:10 <Sgeo> And one stationary piece that's a circle
22:00:11 <elliott> Sgeo: Then they are uncopyrightable.
22:00:32 <elliott> Sgeo: Of course the US courts are insane, so YMMV.
22:00:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:01:27 <Sgeo> With Google's app engine, I can only make a certain number of web apps?
22:01:38 <elliott> ;_______; will you stop asking questions
22:01:42 <elliott> go to their fucking site and see for yourself
22:01:54 <elliott> growls? have you recessed to a pre-human state?
22:01:56 <Sgeo> That's what it was last time I checked
22:02:10 <elliott> are you seriously growling at them for only offering a limited *FREE* allocation of limited resourcse?
22:02:15 <elliott> is your sense of entitlement that big?
22:02:22 <elliott> or were you growling at me for telling you to look it up...
22:02:38 <elliott> pikhq: Think this will ever boot up?
22:02:52 <Sgeo> Well, as long as I can tear down old apps... but last I checked, I can't
22:03:15 <Sgeo> "You can delete your existing applications via the Admin Console if you want to create more, but you will not be able to re-register an application ID."
22:03:19 <Sgeo> Ok, that's ok then
22:03:43 <Sgeo> Actually, I think last I checked, that last bit might have been what offended me, even though it does make sense
22:03:56 <elliott> oh, it has a verbose startup
22:04:18 <elliott> pikhq: "warning: skipping personalities in blacklisted kext com.apple.Dont_Steal_Mac_OS_X"
22:04:48 <elliott> <Jobs> DAMMIT! How did they ever think to DISABLE the anti-piracy module?!
22:04:59 <elliott> <Jobs> CURSE YOU, HACKINTOSHERS!
22:05:27 <Sgeo> Well, it might stop more casual... even the casual people would just use whatever the geeks provide
22:05:44 <Sgeo> So once someone figures out how to disable it, it's worthless
22:05:49 <pikhq> elliott: Anyways, I've totally got Sita Sings the Blues in 1080p24, and I can't play it back.
22:06:46 <zzo38> Arimaa license is overly restrictive especially that you are not allowed to release source-codes of programs related to it. Also I don't like that it is patented anyways, I don't like patents. (I also don't like the pieces; I would prefer flat pieces with numbers written on it?)
22:08:04 <Sgeo> ....lolwhat at not releasing source-code of Arimaa programs
22:08:22 <Sgeo> Maybe just code of programs that connect to the server? (Not that that's entirely sensible either...)
22:09:32 <Phantom_Failer> Gregor, hey, is the marquee tag a moving platform in WebSplat!?
22:09:38 <fizzie> Sgeo: No, it's "not at all": [What is allowed is:] "Development of Arimaa related software for educational, research or personal use. However you may not hire, contract or commision someone else to develop the software; may not sell the software or release the software publicly in any form (source code or executable)."
22:09:51 * Gregor smacks elliott and Phantom_Failer simultaneously.
22:10:15 <Sgeo> That.... makes no sense
22:10:58 <fizzie> It's completely brainless, of course. "Use of Arimaa in a computer science course" is 'allowed', and "there is basically no restrictions on the use or distribution of Arimaa related products or services", yet you're somehow still not allowed to give out "publicly" any code in any form.
22:11:22 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: Suggested that first :P
22:11:26 <fizzie> The license is very clearly not written by a lawyer.
22:12:03 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: Anyways, I've totally got Sita Sings the Blues in 1080p24, and I can't play it back.
22:12:21 <elliott> <fizzie> Sgeo: No, it's "not at all": [What is allowed is:] "Development of Arimaa related software for educational, research or personal use. However you may not hire, contract or commision someone else to develop the software; may not sell the software or release the software publicly in any form (source code or executable)."
22:12:38 <elliott> As far as I can tell Arimaa is shite anyway.
22:12:51 <Gregor> Phantom_Failer: It isn't, and it's not possible to do that.
22:13:07 <Sgeo> shite license != shite game
22:13:09 <elliott> Gregor: It is in Platform WebSplat :P
22:13:14 <elliott> Sgeo: I never implied that.
22:13:28 <Sgeo> I don't see how it's a bad game
22:13:33 <Sgeo> I kind of like it
22:13:37 <elliott> You don't see how Active Worlds is terrible either.
22:13:43 <Gregor> A friend of mine has gotten 550 and hasn't died yet.
22:13:51 <elliott> Gregor: Oh man if he beats it.
22:15:16 <fizzie> elliott: I don't really know about legal; the license http://arimaa.com/arimaa/license/current.txt is very confusing. It just lists examples, I guess you're expected to extrapolate from those.
22:15:30 <pikhq> elliott: Of course.
22:15:39 <elliott> pikhq: How big is it again?
22:15:52 <Sgeo> The game is _patented_?
22:16:13 <Sgeo> Hmm, what if Logication is also patented?
22:16:27 <elliott> pikhq: Got a Blu-ray burner? Wonder how much stuff actually listens to the spec :P
22:16:38 <pikhq> elliott: I don't even have a CD burner.
22:16:43 <pikhq> elliott: Erm, DVD.
22:16:51 <pikhq> I have a CD burner. That's well over a decade old.
22:16:59 <pikhq> I... Need a job. :P
22:16:59 <fizzie> Sgeo: "What is claimed is: A method for playing a strategic board game wherein the game is played by two or more players on a game board that is gridded to designate spaces such that pieces that are identifiable as belonging to each of the two or more players are positioned within, and moved among, the spaces; the method comprising the steps of: [rules of the game in patentese]"
22:17:38 <fizzie> The "apparatus" for playing the game is also patented.
22:17:51 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: After 400.
22:18:07 <Sgeo> Well, this is all Arimaa stuff
22:18:14 * Sgeo wants to know about Logication
22:18:35 <fizzie> Also the claim 1 in the Arimaa patent is so generic, I find it hard to believe it doesn't apply to at least some other board games.
22:18:48 <elliott> Sgeo: Nobody patents their games.
22:18:56 <elliott> Not computer ones at least.
22:19:12 <Phantom_Failer> elliott, because the long straight runs and the little clusters are exhausted?
22:19:26 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: No, because the chance is simply that you're going to die at one point.
22:19:40 <Sgeo> First level of logication is guaranteed win to one of the players
22:19:49 <Sgeo> (assuming perfect play)
22:20:03 <Sgeo> The levels are presumably under copyright, right?
22:20:06 <elliott> Oh, apparently the boot takes ten minutes. Heh.
22:20:13 <elliott> If they're super-simple, though, no.
22:20:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:21:18 <zzo38> Do you like Project GIPF? It is a series of six games, all deterministic full-information games played on a hexagon board.
22:22:15 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: Now get 600.
22:22:36 <Sgeo> What about on a page specialized for the game?
22:22:39 <Sgeo> Just easy points
22:23:00 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:24:15 -!- sftp has joined.
22:24:52 <Sgeo> Opera seems to be having some problems again
22:25:52 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: Don't stop :|
22:26:13 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: Don't stop :|
22:26:30 <elliott> Phantom_Failer: Remember to tell us the time, too, if you do die. But don't.
22:26:50 <Sgeo> How about an infinite page
22:28:13 <quintopia> elliott: an "infinite" page could work though
22:28:34 <elliott> Gregor: Please explain to quintopia why the DOM doesn't let it work.
22:29:10 <quintopia> you know that game where platforms are moving upward, but they have holes in them, and you have to get the ball through the hole before it falls off the top of the screen, and it just keeps getting faster and faster, but would go on forever if you never died?
22:29:23 <elliott> quintopia: I know infinite games are possible.
22:29:34 * Gregor just shakes his head grimly rather than actually contributing to the discussion.
22:29:37 <elliott> What you do not understand is that doing this in JS would be impossible because it takes ages to enumerate the DOM and that ist he only way.
22:30:24 <elliott> quintopia: Detect new elements appearing on the page.
22:30:33 <elliott> Which is also the only way to do an "infinite" page.
22:31:28 -!- Phantom_Failer has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:31:40 <quintopia> i don't see it. why can't you have an "infinite" game where the screen never scrolls down, platforms just go off the top of the page, are made invisible, and at some random point in the future, are made visible again at the bottom?
22:32:08 <elliott> quintopia: Because WebSplat doesn't work like that?
22:32:13 <elliott> <quintopia> elliott: an "infinite" page could work though
22:32:16 <elliott> Not with WebSplat, it couldn't.
22:32:34 <quintopia> i don't know enough about the mechanics to see it
22:33:14 <quintopia> you're gonna make me read code aren't you? :/
22:34:15 <elliott> quintopia: It scans all the DOM elements at start up.
22:34:21 <elliott> After that, their positions, and existence, is fixed.
22:34:32 <elliott> All of this would break WebSplat.
22:35:31 <quintopia> elliott: what if there are no visible dom elements at all on startup?
22:35:33 <Gregor> quintopia: Elements preexisting in the DOM that move around screw you up.
22:35:39 <elliott> quintopia: Then it... doesn't work.
22:35:41 <quintopia> elliott: what if all the platforms were created by websplat
22:35:42 <Gregor> elliott: Elements added by websplat code can move.
22:35:44 <elliott> The playfield is empty,f orever.
22:35:47 <elliott> quintopia: It doesn't create any...
22:35:53 <elliott> Gregor: I meant page elements.
22:36:08 <elliott> By... stating the facts about how WebSplat works?
22:36:20 <quintopia> but sprite-like platforms are exactly what i'm talking about here
22:36:26 <elliott> You failed to say that entirely.
22:36:39 <elliott> Sgeo said "what about a page designed for WebSplat". Then you said "but what about an infinite page".
22:36:52 <elliott> *Obviously* I assumed that, since you were continuing what Sgeo said, you meant *an actual page* not a modification of WebSplat.
22:37:16 <quintopia> but it could be a page designed for websplat, with websplat-like javascript code on it
22:37:33 <quintopia> that uses websplat-like methods for moving sprite-like platforms
22:38:42 <elliott> quintopia: That... might work.
22:38:59 <elliott> Not unless you patched WebSplat's functions and *that* will be basically forking WebSplat, except it'll break a lot.
22:39:03 <Sgeo> Obviously, Gregor needs to obfuscate his Javascript, and doing so will provide 100% protection against persons like you.
22:39:33 <elliott> "Besides it's Vmware is NOT FREE. They give you a cripple version to make you happy about but not full features like VirtualBox." ;; and that's why there's no non-open source version of VirtualBox!
22:40:33 <Sgeo> Was about to say a book 1 spoiler
22:44:57 <elliott> I wonder if this thing would boot OS X for the lulz.
22:47:59 <olsner> if it's somehow motivated by lulz, it might
22:48:33 <elliott> olsner: Can I come to Sweden to use you guys' internet for a while? I, uh, think I need to download a *different* 3 GiB ISO.
22:49:03 <Sgeo> Is Opera's builtin BitTorrent client decent?
22:49:17 <olsner> elliott: hehe, I could download it for you, but I'm not sure if that helps since you need to get it from here afterwards
22:50:06 <Sgeo> That would be _faster_?
22:50:13 <olsner> if nothing else, I can download it and gloat at how fast it went
22:50:40 <Sgeo> Ooh, I like this MIDI
22:51:10 <Sgeo> http://daychilde.com/midiguy/Dc15.mid
22:51:45 <Sgeo> Does Dc* usually mean "In the Windows Recycle Bin"?
22:52:32 <Sgeo> Does windows rename files in the recycle bin to DcSomenumber?
22:52:44 <elliott> http://daychilde.com/midiguy/Dc15.mid <-- this is beyond terrible
22:53:24 -!- augur has joined.
22:53:39 <Sgeo> Weird. I love it.
22:54:14 <Sgeo> Dc7.mid for some haunted house-ish music
22:54:20 <Sgeo> Came from a game called Murder Mansion
22:54:38 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, but you have terrible taste.
22:55:35 <Sgeo> I'm not recommending davy[1].mid
22:55:41 <Sgeo> Do you now have more faith in my taste?
22:55:56 <elliott> I haven't clicked it and won't
22:56:29 <elliott> Sgeo: i lied. dear god that is terrible
22:56:38 <Sgeo> See? I have some taste!
22:57:59 <Sgeo> There's a lot mentioning gerudo
22:58:05 <Sgeo> Same basic theme
22:58:15 <Sgeo> Z64gerud.mid is the one I'm listening to now
22:58:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:59:07 <Sgeo> Actually, it's a bit slow
22:59:59 <Sgeo> GerudoVmix.mid is nice and fast... perhaps a bit too much
23:01:19 <Sgeo> www.tnlc.com-midi-children.mid
23:03:52 <Sgeo> The reason some of these look almost like URLs is that in Active Worlds, people could include sounds that come from elsewhere (not on the object path)
23:13:00 <pikhq> elliott: Seems that it's possible to make Pidgin suck less. Who knew?
23:19:22 <Sgeo> pikhq, lolwat?
23:19:31 <Sgeo> Enough to let me switch back from Digsby?
23:23:11 <pikhq> It's not even hogging RAM like I'd expect from such a thing. Incredible.
23:30:16 <elliott> pikhq: Well, it is written in C.
23:30:22 <elliott> *Generally* such programs don't hog *all* the memory.
23:30:34 <pikhq> elliott: Tell that to Gnome.
23:30:46 <elliott> pikhq: Gnome isn't actually that much of a memory hog IME.
23:30:59 <pikhq> elliott: But anyways. Quite astoundingly, it appears to be acting quite reasonably all-around.
23:31:03 <elliott> pikhq: Slow yes. Memory hog no.
23:31:35 <elliott> pikhq: In fact apart from Chrome and VirtualBox, Pidgin is my top memory-using process... by whatever hideously inaccurate standard System Monitor uses.
23:31:43 <elliott> But yeah, that's really inaccurate.
23:31:55 <pikhq> elliott: Liferea appears to be using more here.
23:32:05 <elliott> pikhq: Liferea is *Mozilla*.
23:32:23 <pikhq> Uh, it's Webkit and C.
23:32:45 <elliott> pikhq: I swear that it's XUL.
23:32:52 <pikhq> Definitely Webkit.
23:32:55 <elliott> Maybe some other popular feed reader.
23:33:25 <elliott> "How To Build a Universal Feed Reader
23:33:25 <elliott> (C) 2007-2008 By Denis Sureau
23:33:25 <elliott> We will detail the steps in building a feed reader recognizing all formats, by using the possibilities of XML PHP 5."
23:33:37 <elliott> None of these technologies makes any sense in context with the others!
23:34:25 <elliott> pikhq: FWIW: OS X in a VM on a platform without virtualisation *sucks*.
23:35:35 <elliott> "Unless your system specs are close to the ones used in Apple machines (a.k.a. non-cutting-edge), you will have problems."
23:35:47 <elliott> yes, all those Apple computers running silly outdated i3/5/7s :P
23:36:26 <elliott> pikhq: I can't even remember why I wanted to do this.
23:36:42 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:37:08 <pikhq> Pain, agony, sorrow, etc?
23:37:58 <elliott> pikhq: Well yes. But it will be fun to have OS X to torture in a VM.
23:38:12 <elliott> pikhq: Consider it a nicotine patch for ex-Applers.
23:40:03 <elliott> 20:42:40 <Gregor> ARGH I suck at this game apparently X-D
23:40:03 <elliott> 20:42:45 <Gregor> 181@153D
23:40:17 -!- nooga has joined.
23:40:52 <elliott> Gregor: Also: 20:45:00 <elliott> Gregor: I have to say, I would appreciate an ability to look up/left/right/down a certain amount, like in some platformer games.
23:40:57 <nooga> suddenly i feel that i need to write a 3d modelling program simmilar to google's sketchup, but BETTER
23:41:10 <elliott> When did this channel become #nih?
23:41:50 <Sgeo> How do I tell Opera that it choose the wrong link for its fast forward feature?
23:41:59 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe I should just write my own browser
23:43:08 <elliott> nooga: NIH = Not Invented Here (syndrome)
23:43:17 <elliott> Anyone know anything about VirtualBox?
23:43:31 <Sgeo> It is or was a Sun thing at some point
23:44:27 <elliott> pikhq: "satisfyBefore I get this thing rolling -- I want to tell you one thing. The tone which I’ve written this article may differ , its just to make it sound like a commercial product. I have no intentions of selling it or making profit out of it. This project will remain , free and I’ll be writing a guide on how to make your very own boot-132 disc so that you can pretty much help out the rest !
23:44:27 <elliott> Introduction -- Presenting Empire EFI. The one of the kind boot loader which all. Do take a look at what Empire EFI as to offer. Unlike other tutorials and guides and solutions , you don’t need a hackint0sh or Macintosh running OSX . Its possible to use this disc on a PC running Windows or Linux"
23:44:45 <elliott> I had a feeling you'd be terribly unuseful.
23:46:15 <Sgeo> Hey, my statement was less ambiguous!
23:46:26 <Sgeo> Although equally unhelpful for someone in your position, admittedly
23:46:34 <elliott> Sgeo: I wasn't even playing off that.
23:46:40 <elliott> It's just silly OSx86 stuff.
23:46:45 <elliott> pikhq: You know the ridiculous thing? I have a fucking Macintosh!
23:50:48 <elliott> hahaha "Mac OS X even regulates processor activity between keystrokes, saving milliwatts of power."
23:50:55 <elliott> Accompanying image: http://images.apple.com/macbookair/images/enviro_efficiency_milliwatt20101020.jpg
23:51:24 -!- calamari_ has joined.
23:52:06 <Sgeo> Is there a chance that Apple might attempt to lock down OSX to iOS levels?
23:52:24 -!- calamari_ has quit (Client Quit).
23:52:47 <elliott> it's too much effort and expense.
23:53:05 <elliott> they haven't really added any new anti-other-people's-machines code in a while, i don't think
23:53:21 <Sgeo> I meant as in, only approved programs
23:53:59 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:54:08 <elliott> Sgeo: Chance of that is absolutely zero.
23:54:20 <elliott> It's still a fucking *computer*.
23:54:36 <elliott> Sgeo: The Macintosh *created* the computer software industry in 1984.
23:55:12 <elliott> Every indie OS X developer in the world -- and there are a lot -- would go to Steve Jobs' house and kill him, his wife and his children if that ever happened.
23:55:22 <calamari> elliott: did you read that in the weekly world news?
23:55:39 <elliott> calamari: Well, okay, "The Macintosh *created* the computer software industry in 1984." was slightly hyperbolic.
23:55:48 <elliott> But there was no *desktop* software industry beforehand.
23:55:57 <elliott> (Mostly because... there was no desktop.)
23:56:13 <calamari> yeah but they were always smaller
23:56:34 <calamari> macs had a lot of presence in schools because of donations
23:56:44 <elliott> calamari: Don't you mean Apple IIs?
23:56:54 <Sgeo> What's the difference?
23:56:57 <elliott> calamari: The original Macintosh was way too expensive for schools.
23:57:01 <elliott> Sgeo: Uh, everything, more or less.
23:57:09 <elliott> Scratch the "more or less"; everything.
23:57:14 <elliott> No wait, both had a keyboard and a display.
23:57:20 <calamari> elliott: not if they were given to the school
23:57:36 <elliott> calamari: I have never read anything about the *original* 1984 Macintosh being used in schools.
23:57:36 <calamari> and the schools always had apple hardware, never pc
23:57:43 <elliott> Everything after that, sure.
23:58:01 <calamari> I'm talking about things like mac se
23:58:12 * Sgeo has no clue what we used
23:58:18 <Sgeo> I think there was a menu
23:58:32 <elliott> http://productsdb.riscos.com/images/riscos.gif!
23:58:38 <calamari> yeah so it was a smart strategy, a lot of people use mac because that's what they used in school
23:58:41 <elliott> I've been in front of a RISC OS machine once I think.
23:58:42 <Sgeo> I think we had heterogenous Windows and ... menu thing
23:58:56 <elliott> if they could afford it. unlikely.
23:59:06 <elliott> RISC OS is awesome, did I mention that? Awesome.
23:59:11 <Sgeo> I'd need to see a screenshot
23:59:20 <elliott> http://productsdb.riscos.com/images/riscos.gif
23:59:31 <elliott> RISC OS was the first to introduce text anti-aliasing to computer interfaces.
23:59:40 <Sgeo> It was textual
23:59:52 <Sgeo> A GRUB-like menu
23:59:57 <Sgeo> Not a graphical GUI menu
00:00:36 <Sgeo> I used DOS at home, I remember that
00:00:45 <elliott> DOS with a menu application, I mean.
00:00:52 <Sgeo> If this was DOS in the schools, it was hidden behind some menu... yeah
00:01:00 <Sgeo> Now, help me find the menu application
00:01:20 <Sgeo> I only remember one vague image
00:01:28 <Sgeo> The background was blue
00:01:39 <elliott> calamari: is that referring to a specific product?
00:01:41 <elliott> "Automenu is the only remaining product we sell, all other products have been discontinued."
00:01:55 <calamari> elliott: it was an old menu program for dos
00:02:02 <elliott> No, not really. You can't use Automenu to start your computer and then switch between Windows 95 and DOS applications. You could use Automenu as a menu system for your DOS applications inside a DOS window. You would install the Automenu files on your system and create a shortcut to run AUTO.BAT. So when you click on this shortcut it will start Automenu in a DOS window.
00:02:05 <elliott> calamari: sounds like it, lol
00:02:08 <elliott> http://www.magee.com/magee/Product%20Information.htm
00:03:05 <elliott> Psst, cpressey doesn't know this, but I've totally stolen his language.
00:04:13 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:05:46 <elliott> It's a term rewriting language! But, but with kittens!
00:06:26 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:09:25 <calamari> so I have an idea for the action of a multiplayer roguelike that somewhat retains turn-based movement: if any player moves, then the monsters get a chance to move. however, the monsters are not able to attack anyone who hasn't taken a turn yet.
00:10:10 <calamari> so you might get surrounded by monsters if you leave the game running for days, but you'll be "safe" lol
00:11:16 <elliott> "Oh no, there are 50 Ultimate Death Killing Machines surrounding me!"
00:11:34 <calamari> yeah if you get abandoned by your party, you might get screwed
00:11:50 <elliott> calamari: or if your whole party go offline and can't get to somewhere safe first...
00:11:52 <calamari> however, if they leave the level, then the monsters won't be moving either
00:12:14 <elliott> holy shit, vmware server is 451 MiB!
00:12:39 <calamari> I can never understand why software is so bloated
00:13:01 <elliott> calamari: aren't you a java guy?
00:13:21 <elliott> gotta question your actual code size as a valid metric there when you depend on one of the worst pieces of software in existence (jvm) that also hogs memory :P
00:13:32 <elliott> calamari: well no, software does suck.
00:13:49 <elliott> calamari: basically due to corporate development i think
00:13:58 <elliott> selling the software is more important than the code, programmers get lazy
00:14:04 <elliott> but it's okay, hardware will catch up!
00:14:16 <calamari> yeah but how exactly do they get lazy
00:14:18 <elliott> then in a desperate attempt to imitate other systems, the Linux/BSD guys start donig it to
00:14:41 <elliott> calamari: as long as the software literally *works* the company keeps selling it because users are locked in and don't know any better.
00:14:50 <elliott> calamari: as long as the programmers don't break the software, they stay employed
00:14:56 <elliott> so why bother writing good code?
00:15:00 <calamari> what I meant is, if they are lazy then wouldn't that mean less lines of code?
00:15:24 <elliott> calamari: it can be an art to write the minimum amount of code that's still readable and functions
00:15:31 <elliott> sometimes it's a lot more easier to write long, retarded code that gets it done
00:15:37 <elliott> calamari: plus, "Hey you, implement this feature!"
00:15:40 <elliott> codebase grows, redundancy appears
00:16:05 <elliott> calamari: also consider that not too long ago it wasn't even clear how software should be written! in fact it still isn't.
00:16:13 <elliott> calamari: also worse is better only got popularised in the 90s
00:16:27 <elliott> ...and even though i have some disagreements with it, before it, minimal code wasn't seen as a virtue at all as far as i know
00:16:32 <elliott> at least not outside the actual dedicated unix circles
00:16:49 <elliott> calamari: but really, if your software does what it's supposed to, and it's tiny, that's a good thing imo.
00:17:29 <calamari> well I work on the ibm mainframes (z/os), we don't have bloat there.. maybe not the best algorithm, but not bloat either
00:17:47 <calamari> but that code has been going since the 60s
00:18:11 <calamari> so maybe hardware restrictions have maintained an atmosphere of efficiency
00:18:57 <elliott> calamari: aren't they a bit... arcane?
00:21:25 <elliott> forgot we had a nice word for that.
00:21:43 <elliott> god, this will never work ever
00:22:20 <elliott> I uh so, someone distract me by asking about my language.
00:23:44 <calamari> elliott: sorrty, had to take a call.. yes z/os is definitely different than a lot of modern oses
00:24:14 <elliott> calamari: meh, i consider modern OSes insane.
00:24:33 <calamari> but it is very good at doing batch processing
00:25:24 <calamari> so that means it's good for billing, banks, retail stores, etc
00:25:27 <elliott> calamari: Yay batch processing! Everyone's favourite thing.
00:27:03 <elliott> Hmm. The only OSes I consider sane are... Forth and the Lisp Machine OSes.
00:27:27 <calamari> also the hardware is handled so much better
00:27:47 <calamari> here if my cd won't read it hoses linux
00:28:48 <calamari> not sure why that is, actually. would kernel preemption help?
00:28:51 <elliott> calamari: well yeah linux is braindead.
00:29:24 <calamari> or is the drive flooding the bus with crap
00:30:32 <elliott> calamari: yes. the driver got out a hose and filled the entire bus.
00:30:35 <elliott> a tragic mental breakdown.
00:30:43 <elliott> thankfully it was double decker so people just climbed up to the top.
00:36:58 * Sgeo ponders a Factor OS
00:38:23 <Sgeo> Wasn't there some idea that Smalltalk was supposed to be an OS?
00:40:40 <elliott> Sgeo: not some idea, fact.
00:40:43 <elliott> the original Smalltalk was an OS.
00:41:06 <elliott> Sgeo: the sole reason it's a closed-world, in-a-window environment is because it's an OS ported to run on an OS.
00:46:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: Arguably, it still is.
00:46:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: It just happens to run hosted.
00:46:58 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_bomb#Example_fork_bombs
00:47:05 * elliott axes almost all of that section
00:48:15 * elliott axes almost all of that section
00:50:09 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_bomb#Example_fork_bombs
00:50:29 <Sgeo> Hover! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0fx0_WuD40
00:50:54 <elliott> calamari: You're fucking insane. Did you add one of them or something?
00:51:16 <elliott> Wikipedia is not a forkbomb lookup site.
00:51:33 <calamari> deleting stuff is anti-knowledge
00:51:42 <elliott> You, sir, are a fucking lunatic.
00:51:43 <Sgeo> Don't you see how good AW is?
00:52:01 <Sgeo> Look at how much better its graphics is compared to a different 3d game from its time!
00:52:19 <pikhq> calamari: You are a moron.
00:52:33 <pikhq> calamari: Wikipedia is intended as a reference source.
00:52:40 <calamari> cool, so you guys have no defense
00:52:50 <pikhq> calamari: Having useless data in it makes the whole thing useless for that task.
00:53:12 <pikhq> calamari: PEOPLE WHO WANT USEFUL INFORMATION.
00:53:22 <pikhq> calamari: UNLIKE YOU, YOU IGNORAMOUS.
00:53:49 <Sgeo> The bit about Java is not useless
00:54:06 <Sgeo> Who TF has ever heard of Pict?
00:54:26 <pikhq> Elitist. Grammatically a noun, semantically an indication of the speaker's ignorance.
00:54:53 <elliott> calamari: Firstly, let me note that
00:55:02 <elliott> the decision has been made to move such things to wikisource
00:55:08 <elliott> (long programming examples of a certain task)
00:55:14 <elliott> because *they are explicitly outside Wikipedia's vision*.
00:55:18 <elliott> because *they are explicitly outside Wikipedia's vision*.
00:55:24 <elliott> They are explicitly outside Wikipedia's vision.
00:55:32 <Sgeo> elliott, linky?
00:55:37 <calamari> again, that vision is flawed if it means less information
00:55:46 <elliott> calamari: Well guess what? Wikipedia follows Wikipedia's vision, not yours.
00:56:01 <calamari> if you have attention deficit disorder, use a regular encyclopedia
00:56:09 <pikhq> calamari: Just shovelling information into Wikipedia makes it cease to be a useful resource, and arguably kills the useful information that *is in there*.
00:56:20 <elliott> calamari: You are, quite literally, the stupidest person I have ever had the displeasure of talking to on here.
00:56:27 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: I love you. Let's be friends forever.
00:56:28 <Sgeo> ONE TWO THREE FOUR THIS iS HOW WE EDIT WAR
00:56:35 <pikhq> calamari: Imagine if the page on C had every single valid C program.
00:56:42 <calamari> elliott: yeah that just weakens your already patetic attempt at a rebuttal
00:56:53 <pikhq> calamari: You would say I'm an "information elitist" for removing all that crap.
00:57:05 <pikhq> calamari: And yet, I would be making the rest of the information significantly more accesible.
00:57:05 <Sgeo> Isn't calamari the person who made PSOX's spiritual predecesor?
00:57:09 <calamari> pikhq: if you had example C programs, I don't see a problem
00:57:12 <Sgeo> Hmm, that doesn't help his case, does it?
00:57:19 <pikhq> And thus increasing the ability to access information.
00:57:24 <pikhq> calamari: Let's say a coreutils.
00:57:29 <pikhq> A complete coreutils.
00:57:56 <elliott> pikhq: see /msg, I talked about some stuff
00:58:01 <elliott> that we talked about earlier
00:58:08 <calamari> straw man, really.. since not every language was on that page
00:58:30 <calamari> and that would also be redundant
00:59:20 <elliott> I hope VMware will work better.
01:00:01 <elliott> Mrf, it hasn't installed properly.
01:02:23 <Sgeo> elliott, significant differences between [legal] VMware Server and [illegal to get for free] VMware Workstation or whatever?
01:02:35 <elliott> calamari: your edits are in extremely bad faith especially considering another user (mistakenly) thought I was vandalising and then upon realising I wasn't, putting it back to my version, thus constituting implicit acceptance of it.
01:02:41 <elliott> "I request that before it is reverted again, the matter is discussed on the talk page."
01:03:06 <pikhq> calamari: It's not fucking useful! It's spam!
01:03:11 <Sgeo> calamari, you aren'r even willing to TALK?
01:03:15 <pikhq> calamari: Removing spam is not anti-information!
01:03:21 <Sgeo> Ok, I was sympathetic with you right up until that point.
01:03:26 <elliott> calamari: You are being irrational, inflammatory, acting in bad faith, acting in admitted violation of established Wikipedia policy, and being a fucking asshole.
01:03:52 <calamari> Sgeo: fuck him.. I tried talking he launched ad hominems
01:04:14 <calamari> he's probably drunk or something
01:04:17 <elliott> It's called being exasperated at idiocy. All my rationale is there in the edit summaries.
01:04:37 <elliott> Or, perhaps I'm an information elitist and trying to get you down with my hideous drunkenness.
01:04:50 <elliott> Or, you know, perhaps you're just a moron.
01:04:51 * Sgeo is tempted to remove all EsoAPI and PESOIX references from the PSOX spec
01:04:57 * Sgeo is powerless, obviously
01:05:31 <pikhq> calamari: "Moron" should be treated as an indication that you are exhibiting behavior that is rash and obviously insufficiently thought-out, and that you should reconsider your actions.
01:06:08 <calamari> pikhq: nah, when ppl start saying things, that means they have lost the argument and should be ignored
01:06:19 <Sgeo> I don't see anyone requesting to talk on Talk
01:06:49 <pikhq> calamari: You, sir, already lost the argument. Unless you think that we really need a forkbomb in Pict.
01:07:04 <elliott> <calamari> elliott: fuck you
01:07:09 <elliott> already lost the argument and should be ignored
01:07:16 <calamari> pikhq: so remove the pict example and leave the rest.. works for me
01:07:29 <elliott> calamari: what about the three asm examples?
01:07:32 <pikhq> calamari: I think that we only need one or two examples.
01:07:36 <elliott> One for Linux, one for Win32, and one for I forget what the fuck it was?
01:07:51 <pikhq> calamari: Say, the C and bash examples.
01:07:55 <elliott> Ooh slippery slopes. Why am I arguing with you again? It's not like you've made any attempt at civil debate or listened to my polite request in the edit summary.
01:08:17 * Sgeo falls in love with Pict
01:08:18 <elliott> I wonder where you acquired the kind of ego that makes you think your crazy personal whims beat Wikipedia policy.
01:08:56 <Sgeo> Maybe more of a one-night stand with Pict
01:09:04 <elliott> calamari: I will note that if you had attempted to discuss it civilly with me before reaching for the revert button, I would have been happy to do so.
01:09:09 <GreaseMonkey> <elliott> They are explicitly outside Wikipedia's vision.
01:09:12 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn pi-calculus first
01:09:13 <elliott> calamari: However, your very first action was a hostile dismissal without bothering to argue.
01:09:33 <calamari> elliott: "calamari: You're fucking insane. Did you add one of them or something?" yeah that'
01:09:46 <elliott> calamari: That was after you went to revert it without justification or anything.
01:09:52 <elliott> You just said "hey, I'm reverting that edit you did now".
01:09:54 <pikhq> calamari: Anyways, I now have half a mind to rewrite the entire article because it's almost a stub aside from the spam.
01:09:58 <Sgeo> Ok, how about this:
01:09:58 <elliott> calamari: That is irrelevant.
01:10:02 <elliott> You made no attempt to engage in rational discussion.
01:10:05 <Sgeo> Everyone starts from scratch
01:10:15 <elliott> You stated your explicit intent to perform a hostile action without reasoning at the very start.
01:10:17 <Sgeo> Everyone forgets about the entire conversation
01:10:23 <Sgeo> Then, we have a civil discussion.
01:10:41 <calamari> Sgeo: nah.. I really don't give a shit.. obviously you guys can out-revert me.. so if you want to destroy the information, I can't win
01:11:24 <GreaseMonkey> anyways, to sum it up, there really needs to be the :(){ :|:& };: example
01:11:31 <pikhq> calamari: "Destroy the information". You act under the premise that deleting information is necessarily "wrong" or "evil". Or indeed "anti-information".
01:11:36 <Sgeo> According to the talk page, that's broken
01:11:51 <pikhq> calamari: But there is such a thing as too much information.
01:11:55 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: I left that in, its extended explanation, the POSIX C version, the Perl version and the DOS version.
01:12:06 <calamari> pikhq: there have been pages that I've used that got deleted.. and when I came back the information I needed was gone
01:12:08 <pikhq> calamari: Drowning out the information that's there.
01:12:26 <elliott> So I destroyed... the faster batch version, the DOS command line version, the Ruby version, the Haskell version, the Python version, the Visual Studio version, the Scheme version,
01:12:30 <calamari> pikhq: after that I realized that there was a war inside wikipedia.. those who like to delete and those who like to add
01:12:38 <Sgeo> There was a Haskell version?
01:12:50 <pikhq> calamari: ... You *unconditionally assume* that deleting is wrong?
01:12:59 <elliott> GreaseMonkey: All of which are entirely useless, of course.
01:13:00 <pikhq> calamari: You actually feel that it should be add-only?
01:13:20 <Sgeo> There's a Flash game that I liked and the only expalanation of various stuff was on Wikipedia
01:13:23 <calamari> pikhq: if it's illegal content then it should be deleted.. but if it's content that someone finds valuable, it shouldn't be deleted
01:13:25 <Sgeo> It wasn't a notable game
01:13:29 <GreaseMonkey> the ruby version actually looks kinda interesting
01:13:39 <elliott> calamari: I find "calamari is a fag" valuable.
01:13:55 <Sgeo> Corner cases are FUN!
01:13:59 <elliott> calamari: you said any content someone finds valuable should stay
01:14:03 <elliott> I find "calamari is a fag" valuable.
01:14:19 <calamari> elliott: you really think your argument is valid?
01:14:19 <Sgeo> elliott, maybe he didn't mean literally. Corner cases happen
01:14:26 <GreaseMonkey> scheme ver would be worth keeping, i'd drop the free pascal ver though
01:14:32 <Sgeo> Vandalism is a corner case, his statement should be modified accordingly
01:14:34 <elliott> calamari: Oh, I see, so now you're the one not attempting to reply to disagreements.
01:14:54 <elliott> calamari: What about "Calamari is terribly homosexual, I verily proclaim it so."
01:14:54 <pikhq> calamari: That's reductio ad absurdum, not a strawman.
01:14:56 <GreaseMonkey> php is kinda notable, the win32 fasm one is just large though, and i'm not sure about the linux fasm one
01:14:59 <calamari> you definitely type faster than I do, so that means I'm ignoring you?
01:15:05 <elliott> <calamari> elliott: you really think your argument is valid?
01:15:10 <elliott> that was explicitly refusing to answer
01:15:15 <elliott> argumentum ad incredulity?
01:15:19 <GreaseMonkey> there does not need to be both a nasm and a fasm version of the same code
01:15:27 <Sgeo> By vandalism I did not mean profanity
01:15:44 <Sgeo> Although on a page about calamari, backed up by sou... wait
01:15:51 <elliott> "Stop talking, I haven't lost yet! Let's just leave it as it is!"
01:15:53 <pikhq> calamari: But honestly. Do you actually feel that Wikipedia should be *add-only*?
01:15:55 <Sgeo> We can't just let every single human's opinion on
01:15:59 <elliott> "If we stop talking I can't lose!"
01:16:24 <GreaseMonkey> the lisp one is kinda redundant wrt the scheme one
01:16:33 <calamari> pikhq: for the most part, yes.. obviously if people are putting up copyrighted stuff or attacks as pointed out, then those should be taken down
01:16:46 <Sgeo> Define "attack"
01:16:47 <pikhq> calamari: To make the argument less absurd, I shall give an example that is merely useless, not likely false.
01:16:51 <elliott> calamari: "Some people state that calamari is a flamboyant homosexual murderer."
01:16:53 <GreaseMonkey> actually i'd personally just drop the fasm ones, at least the duplicate
01:16:54 <calamari> pikhq: otherwise it's just a matter of restructuring the information
01:16:56 <elliott> That's not an attack, that's a statement of fact.
01:16:59 <elliott> calamari is a flamboyant homosexual murderer.
01:17:02 <elliott> See, someone has stated it.
01:17:04 <elliott> Therefore my statement is true.
01:17:11 <pikhq> calamari: Would you say that Wikipedia should have an article on a "pet" grasshoper you caught when you were 5?
01:17:12 <elliott> It is true, it is not copyrighted, and it is not an attack.
01:17:19 <elliott> calamari: By your philosophy, this information would have to stay.
01:17:32 <calamari> pikhq: yes, however it might need its own article
01:17:40 <elliott> calamari: Am I not correct?
01:17:52 <pikhq> calamari: ... You're kidding. You are fucking kidding right.
01:17:58 <pikhq> calamari: Please tell me this was a joke.
01:18:00 <Sgeo> If Wikipedia had infinite storage space, I'd see calamari's point
01:18:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: And we had infinite ability to search through BS.
01:18:22 <calamari> pikhq: however that might be original research
01:18:39 <calamari> pikhq: so maybe not on second thought
01:18:41 <Sgeo> I'm thinking more of a separate category for "low-interest" stuff
01:18:47 <elliott> !sh echo 'calamari: all the implementations of fork bombs are original research there too'
01:18:50 <pikhq> calamari: Let's say I somehow wrote it based on your memoirs, that I am the *second* person to have read.
01:18:59 <elliott> ^ ul (calamari: all the implementations of fork bombs are original research there too)S
01:19:03 <elliott> ^ul (calamari: all the implementations of fork bombs are original research there too)S
01:19:03 <fungot> calamari: all the implementations of fork bombs are original research there too
01:19:29 <elliott> ^ul ((except the original bash one))S
01:19:30 <fungot> (except the original bash one)
01:20:02 <Sgeo> UL = Underload, not Unlambda
01:20:15 <calamari> pikhq: it all depends on the page it's in.. if it's in a page about me, then that might be fine. I mean obviously they'd want to use the best source they can. incorrect things should be taken out
01:20:16 <GreaseMonkey> no i believe perl's "fork while fork" is also a "well known" one
01:20:22 <Sgeo> I was not, until I realized
01:20:35 <pikhq> calamari: A grasshoper that nobody except for you or me cares about in the slightest.
01:20:40 <fungot> calamari: so it goes...) is spliced into the surrounding context as ( define ( fnord l)) would unload null and fing. does unloading null remove the g and f major at the end
01:20:42 <elliott> calamari's argument is contradictory and he is wilfully ignoring -- probably by /ignore -- my perfectly valid counterargument
01:20:47 <elliott> his case just keeps on building itself.
01:21:13 <Sgeo> We should build a low-interest wiki!
01:21:21 <Sgeo> For calamari's grasshopper
01:21:30 <Sgeo> And every Flash game in existance
01:22:08 <elliott> pikhq: /msg, moar about the project
01:22:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'll get out my spool of infinite tape and the entropyless computer.
01:22:12 <calamari> Sgeo: I really don't see the problem.. go for it
01:22:38 <pikhq> calamari: In short, you disagree with Wikipedia's long-standing notability requirement.
01:23:03 <Sgeo> pikhq, infinite tape might be a little slow
01:23:11 <pikhq> calamari: Please, do Wikipedia a favor and stop editing contrary to their intended goals. You're just making it worse.
01:23:27 <elliott> ^ul (calamari: you do realise violating wikipedia policy repeatable is a bannable offence?)S
01:23:27 <fungot> calamari: you do realise violating wikipedia policy repeatable is a bannable offence?
01:23:28 <calamari> pikhq: I'll do what I will do :)
01:23:39 <pikhq> calamari: Perhaps fork it if you want to have 10 billion forkbombs.
01:23:46 <pikhq> calamari: Otherwise, please, fuck off.
01:23:54 <elliott> ^ul (calamari: ok so you'll continue going until you get banned. Is your entire ethical and moral system this simplistic?)S
01:23:54 <fungot> calamari: ok so you'll continue going until you get banned. Is your entire ethical and moral system this simplistic?
01:23:56 <calamari> who is talking through the bot.. is it elliott?
01:24:06 <pikhq> No, fungot attained sentience.
01:24:07 <fungot> pikhq: never mind. it's the wrong place for a 42 in here. and no modem flat either. it's a wonderfully eloquent description of the format
01:24:15 <elliott> ^ul (pikhq: also, i am not a bot)S
01:24:16 <fungot> pikhq: also, i am not a bot
01:24:17 <Sgeo> Wait, calamari seriously /ignored elliott?
01:25:39 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> calamari: "Some people state that calamari is a flamboyant homosexual murderer."
01:25:43 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> That's not an attack, that's a statement of fact.
01:25:46 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> calamari is a flamboyant homosexual murderer.
01:25:47 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> See, someone has stated it.
01:25:50 <calamari> Sgeo: I was attempting to try your suggestion
01:25:50 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> Therefore my statement is true.
01:25:52 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> It is true, it is not copyrighted, and it is not an attack.
01:25:55 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> calamari: By your philosophy, this information would have to stay.
01:25:58 <pikhq> 18:17 <elliott> <elliott> Am I not correct?
01:26:10 <calamari> Sgeo: obviously the topic didn't change tho lol
01:26:26 <Sgeo> My... suggestion? My suggestion was not to ignore anyone. It was to restart the conversation from a neutral state.
01:27:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:27:04 <pikhq> calamari: Care to answer?
01:27:11 <calamari> Sgeo: yeah since he was basically insulting me rather than attempting honest conversation, the best way to stay neutral was to ignore the troll
01:27:34 <pikhq> calamari: Uuuuh, you're the troll here.
01:27:43 <Sgeo> Let's try this again.
01:27:54 <pikhq> calamari: You're actually trolling Wikipedia by trying to unenforce the notability requirement.
01:27:59 <calamari> pikhq: that's not how I see it, but does it realyl matter?
01:29:07 <pikhq> calamari: Here's the thing. Your edits are like trying to submit patches to Linux that make it run GTK in the kernel. Quite *obviously*, Linus would tell you to fuck off because that's not the job of Linux.
01:29:20 <Sgeo> calamari, unignore elliott. elliott, pikhq, don't insult calamari for things said before this point. calamari, same goes for you
01:29:28 <elliott> Sgeo, stop pretending to be an op.
01:30:10 <elliott> pikhq: pretty sure he has *elliott* on ignore and therefore did not see the question you repeated
01:30:21 <elliott> i.e. any message with my name in it
01:30:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:30:34 <elliott> pikhq: if you want you could turn me into elllott or something i guess :P
01:31:12 <Sgeo> ONE TWO THREE FOUR THIS IS HOW WE GET #ESOTERIC HOTTER THAN THE FLAMES OF HEL
01:31:34 <pikhq> calamari: Also, you're aware that by saying essentially that "deleting is unconditionally wrong" you've shown a complete and utter disregard for actually considering the situation?
01:32:07 <pikhq> calamari: And thus showing all the reasoning abilities of a three-year-old?
01:32:23 <elliott> pikhq: too wimpy to see how he'll react to the ultimate question?! :p
01:32:35 <Sgeo> Solution: Link to an external page that has all these examples.
01:32:37 <calamari> pikhq: why are you continuing this
01:32:49 <pikhq> calamari: Because you're being stupid and I hate for you to be stupid.
01:32:50 <elliott> pikhq: But it'd be *fun* to watch the idiot flail!
01:33:05 <Sgeo> Put it in some userpage on esolangs, no one will complain
01:33:06 <pikhq> calamari: I would like for you to act intelligently.
01:33:37 <calamari> pikhq: your statements are inflammatory
01:33:49 <calamari> pikhq: they work against any argument you might be making
01:33:58 <pikhq> But instead, you insist that any effort to delete information is inherently wrong, regardless of whether or not the information is in any way necessary.
01:34:14 <pikhq> calamari: Your opinions are inflammatory.
01:34:29 <pikhq> calamari: As is your mother.
01:34:36 <calamari> nice.. okay then I really have nothing more to say to you on this subject
01:34:38 <elliott> you forgot the fact that he's a flamboyant homosexual
01:34:53 <pikhq> calamari: I hope you get banned from Wikipedia for trolling.
01:35:12 <calamari> sorry Sgeo.. it didn't work out
01:35:21 <calamari> just added pikhq to ignore also
01:35:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'm sorry, but he has all the brains of a flea.
01:36:05 <elliott> pikhq: Excuse me, I've known fleas to do very intelligent things at times compared to calamari.
01:36:13 <Sgeo> calamari, you will unignore them eventually, right? Or do you not feel like hearing the participation of two of the more active members of this channel?
01:36:14 -!- quintopia has left (?).
01:36:24 <elliott> it's ok everything we say is stupid
01:36:26 <elliott> we're information elitists
01:36:32 <elliott> we want to destroy information everywhere
01:36:37 <elliott> by following wikipedia policies
01:36:39 <pikhq> We believe only some information should exist.
01:36:49 <elliott> i believe all information should exist, sure
01:37:00 <elliott> wikipedia's job is to collect researched information -- the forkbombs were original research --
01:37:06 <elliott> and present it in a readable, encyclopaedic form.
01:37:17 <pikhq> elliott: I believe in removing all the information spam.
01:37:20 <elliott> "Fork bomb" would be a welcome article there
01:37:33 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:37:40 * Sgeo would not be offended if a hypothetical Factor example were removed
01:38:00 <pikhq> elliott: That is to say: I believe in removing bad dumps of ROMs and CDs. Very horribly done encodes of music and video. Pictures taken with the lenscap on. Etc.
01:38:05 <elliott> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Computer_Programming/Hello_world
01:38:16 <elliott> pikhq: I have no problem with them existing and being distributed, just not "recommended".
01:38:20 <elliott> They can be in an index somewhere.
01:38:29 <elliott> pikhq: Preserving culture is a good idae.
01:38:33 -!- wareya has joined.
01:38:35 <elliott> A bad ROM dump is still culture, if almost worthless.
01:39:01 <calamari> Sgeo: let's just leave that one unanswered, okay?
01:39:22 <elliott> It's a good thing calamari never says anything interesting. And is rarely in here.
01:39:31 <Sgeo> To calamari, I am alone with calamari
01:39:32 <elliott> Thankfully being that stupid and having anything worthwhile to say are basically exclusive concepts.
01:39:35 <Sgeo> I'm a little freaked
01:39:44 <Sgeo> elliott, PESOIX is not worthwhile?
01:39:56 <elliott> Sgeo: Even if it was, what more is there to say on it?
01:40:03 <elliott> Sgeo: Anyway, just call him a flamboyant homosexual.
01:40:33 <Sgeo> There's a girl in one of my classes who I think is interested in girls
01:40:38 <Sgeo> I kind of secretly hope she's bi
01:40:51 <elliott> Well that's a topic change.
01:41:00 <elliott> It's not kind of secretly if you tell #esoteric, and, uh, your hormones are second to none.
01:41:32 <pikhq> Sgeo: BTW, part of what you saw here was building up rage against stupid people in general.
01:41:46 <elliott> #esoteric is sort of meant to be the haven away from stupid people :P
01:41:48 <calamari> Sgeo women know that too.. http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-biggest-lies-in-online-dating/
01:41:58 <elliott> Even our stupid people are pretty smart (Vorpal isn't that stupid)
01:42:11 <calamari> Sgeo: scroll down to "I'm bisexual."
01:42:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'm American. There's lots of idiots, they're loud, and they think that OBAMA IS GOING TO TAKE AWAY DER HEALTHCARE.
01:42:25 <pikhq> Sgeo: I see this all the FUCKING TIME. ON BUMPER STICKERS.
01:42:37 <pikhq> Sgeo: PEOPLE ACTUALLY THINK THAT OBAMA IS OUT TO GET THEIR HEALTHCARE.
01:42:51 <pikhq> elliott: Do I give a damn? Nope!
01:42:53 <elliott> I like how calamari equated an online dating page with saying you're bi in real life though.
01:42:57 <elliott> But calamari was being stupid.
01:43:02 <Sgeo> calamari, that's not quite the point. The point is that if she's not bi, I'm certain she's gay
01:43:19 <elliott> pikhq: And it's fun to mock people who have you on /ignore!
01:43:22 <elliott> Did I mention calamari fucks goats?
01:43:59 <pikhq> elliott: His Wikipedia page should say someone claimed that!
01:44:14 <elliott> pikhq: As long as it's referenced to the log!
01:45:06 <elliott> pikhq: In fact, I'll create an article about "The third letter of the sentence of 2010-10-25 where 'elliott' stated that calamari fucks goats in #esoteric."
01:45:15 <elliott> I hate month numbers vs. month names.
01:45:22 <pikhq> Gregor: Completely off-topic, but have you stopped sending out broken HTML which inexplicably starts with an xml statement yet?
01:45:43 <elliott> It's far better to convert to HTML 5 than to send XHTML properly, anyway.
01:45:44 <Gregor> pikhq: Have you stopped beating your wife?
01:45:56 <elliott> Yes, it is the tenth month.
01:46:24 <pikhq> Gregor: But the thing is, you actually are sending out broken HTML which inexplicably starts with an xml statement.
01:46:29 <Sgeo> Windows is showing me MM/DD/YYYY by default
01:46:31 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: Drop it :P
01:46:47 <Sgeo> Gregor is not a webserver.
01:47:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: But he operates one.
01:47:37 <elliott> Sgeo: How many damn emotions do you reel through in a day?
01:47:43 <elliott> And how many of them *don't* you announce to us?
01:47:51 <elliott> Gregor: Any websplat updates recently?
01:48:09 <Sgeo> elliott, what other emotions have I announced?
01:48:17 <elliott> Sgeo: Don't you do it often?
01:48:19 <elliott> Pretty sure you do it often.
01:48:32 <Sgeo> I sometimes mention when I'm feeling giddy
01:48:42 <Sgeo> Although never said it with tat word before
01:48:51 <Gregor> elliott: Just ANNOYINGLY moving favicon goombas to the server.
01:48:59 <Gregor> elliott: They're ... kinda slow clientside sometimes :P
01:49:21 <elliott> Gregor: You know, it doesn't have to be PHP.
01:49:24 <elliott> You do administrate your own web server :P
01:49:33 <elliott> Gregor: You could just make an imagemagick shell script.
01:49:38 <elliott> Or... I dunno, $your_favourite_language.
01:49:40 <Sgeo> WebSplat uses some serverside stuff?
01:49:41 <Gregor> PHP is, tragically, what I'm most comfortable with.
01:49:48 <Gregor> Sgeo: Not until now :(
01:49:56 <elliott> You code in C, JavaScript and PHP?
01:50:02 <elliott> Suddenly I don't like you any more :P
01:50:15 <Gregor> elliott: And Python, Perl when I need to, C++, Java, ...
01:50:16 <Sgeo> C isn't bad. JavaScript arguably isn't bad.
01:50:23 <elliott> Do it in Python? Apparently PIL is quiet nice
01:50:31 <calamari> Gregor: ooh that means I need to make a copy of the current code
01:50:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: Javascript is the result of trying to sneak good into a bad idea.
01:50:46 <pikhq> Worked quite well.
01:50:59 <Sgeo> Maybe PHP : Gregor :: Python : Sgeo ?
01:51:00 <pikhq> Gregor: He believes that rm is the work of the devil.
01:51:07 <calamari> Gregor: because up till now it's independent
01:51:24 <Gregor> calamari: Yeah, it sucks to put this serverside, but alas I have no choice :(
01:51:40 <Gregor> calamari: That being said, the dependence is still restricted to one module, and can be removed by changing one line.
01:51:44 <Sgeo> pikhq, what was the bad idea?
01:51:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: Scripting language that's like Java.
01:52:09 <pikhq> Sgeo: With 2 weeks to implement it.
01:52:58 <Gregor> Uhh, wow. Worst history of JavaScript ever.
01:52:58 <Sgeo> I don't care if the idea is the best programming language for any purpose ever, time constraints like that can't be good.
01:54:34 <Sgeo> When I implement my Logication clone, I should probably try to do the AJAX stuff myself than look for a framework that does it magically for me, right? Just like, say, learning HTML rather than DreamWeaver
01:55:32 <Sgeo> elliott, was planning to
01:55:45 <Sgeo> I meant, jQuery as opposed to making something with that Wt thingy or similar
01:55:51 <Gregor> Sgeo: Do it yourself, then use jQuery when you try to port it to anything :)
01:55:54 <Sgeo> That automatically writes the JavaScript or whatever
01:56:11 <elliott> Gregor: How come I can scroll at all?
01:56:15 <elliott> Shouldn't the scrollbar be totally disabled?
01:56:20 <pikhq> Gregor: Seriously, that's Javascript. Netscape wanted a Java-like scripting language, gave the poor sap 2 weeks to write it.
01:56:28 <pikhq> Gregor: And he spent those 2 weeks trying to make it not suck.
01:56:34 <elliott> I don't recall that exact figure.
01:56:39 <pikhq> elliott: Seem to recall it being two.
01:56:43 <elliott> pikhq: Dood, websplat on havenworks
01:56:57 <calamari> Gregor: oh, minor bug report: might just be firefox, but space bar jumps once then doesn't work after that
01:57:01 <Gregor> elliott: I can't disable the scrollbar (maybe?), and besides it should stop you from effectively scrolling anyway ...
01:57:09 <Gregor> calamari: Now THAT'S bizarre ...
01:57:12 <elliott> Gregor: Can't you assert the viewport as smaller though?
01:57:33 <Gregor> calamari: But reproducible! Hm.
01:58:01 <Gregor> elliott: Oh, that's right, you can still vertically scroll ... bleh, fixable but not worth it IMHO :P
01:58:10 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP8vlIn02JY theme for December 2009
01:59:17 <elliott> Gregor: the favicon guy is humping the border of the column.
01:59:35 <Gregor> elliott: Don't judge him!
01:59:36 <Sgeo> And some Intenet hormones
02:00:07 <elliott> Sgeo: wait, you *like* that song?
02:00:08 <pikhq> elliott: I can't even play back the 480p version of this.
02:00:11 <Sgeo> I created Metaplace sex
02:00:11 <calamari> just tried it in opera.. don't do that lol
02:00:43 <pikhq> elliott: I'm going to make a lossy 720p version.
02:00:49 <elliott> pikhq: ...but that already exists.
02:01:04 <elliott> You don't want to WATCH it do you?!?!?! :| :P
02:01:05 <Sgeo> The most important files on the damaged HD relate to Metaplace
02:01:14 <pikhq> elliott: But it'd take less time to do the encode myself and then watch it.
02:01:14 <Sgeo> Well, important sentementally
02:01:21 <Sgeo> Some pictures, some chat logs
02:01:27 <Sgeo> Metaplace doesn't exist anymore
02:02:37 <elliott> Gregor: it is totally too hard to kill enemies :P
02:02:40 <elliott> Every time I drop down to kill I get killed.
02:02:56 <Gregor> <elliott> Waaaah I died again waaaah.
02:02:59 <elliott> Gregor: You should have, like, a larger collision box only when checking if you killed or not. >_>
02:03:10 <elliott> One pixel difference meant I died :|
02:03:20 <Sgeo> Let's see if I can find the one picture I have a copy of
02:03:23 <Sgeo> No sex in this one
02:03:27 <Gregor> If you were RIGHT ABOVE IT, you would have killed it. You were slightly left or right of it.
02:03:29 <elliott> No sex oh how disappointing.
02:03:36 <elliott> Gregor: I was right above it. I did not predict the precise pixel movement.
02:03:45 <elliott> Gregor: Also, falling slightly to the right of it when it's moving left is a ... terrible way to die.
02:03:49 <Gregor> Blar, I can still make it easier, I just don wanna X-D
02:04:02 <Sgeo> WTF I can't find it
02:04:05 <elliott> Gregor: We will never complete havenworks :P
02:05:03 <Sgeo> Where is the last surviving picture I have?
02:06:12 <Gregor> Nearly have server-side favicon goombas ...
02:06:15 <elliott> Gregor: Are enemies only simulated when they're on-screen?
02:06:19 <pikhq> elliott: Never mind, this'll take a lot of time.
02:06:31 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, downloading would be quicker :P
02:06:40 <elliott> pikhq: wait, try making a stereo mix
02:06:43 <elliott> pikhq: that's probably why it won't play
02:06:50 <Sgeo> calamari, I'm lookinging for a screenshot, so no
02:06:54 <elliott> There's no reason Elephants Dream would play and not this.
02:06:57 <Sgeo> <elliott>lookinginginginginging
02:06:58 <pikhq> elliott: I was using the stereo FLAC for playback.
02:06:59 <elliott> Especially since Sita is easier to compress.
02:07:15 <elliott> pikhq: Tried waiting a day like last time? :P
02:07:20 <elliott> Gregor: Did that >600 guy die? What on?
02:07:45 <Gregor> (05:22:49 PM) brianrogers83: Ow.
02:07:46 <Gregor> (05:22:50 PM) brianrogers83: Dead.
02:07:46 <Gregor> (05:22:52 PM) brianrogers83: 889
02:08:44 <elliott> Gregor: That's... how far down did he get?
02:09:31 <elliott> Gregor: Don't suppose he said a time recently before that?
02:09:39 <elliott> We could figure out his (approximate, but) total time.
02:10:03 <Sgeo> And what webpage?
02:10:10 <pikhq> elliott: And now I have good reason to do the encode myself.
02:10:12 <Sgeo> Surely to make a comparision, you need to known he webpage?
02:10:18 <pikhq> elliott: It's an average bitrate encode!
02:10:34 <Gregor> elliott: No, I didn't tell him to give times :(
02:10:37 <elliott> pikhq: Just do it with a low non-zero quantiser in x264 or something :P
02:10:42 <elliott> Gregor: You quoted one time, I think.
02:10:43 <pikhq> elliott: No, no, no.
02:10:46 <elliott> But with the amount of pauses...
02:10:54 <pikhq> elliott: I'll target a certain quality instead.
02:10:59 <elliott> Sgeo: We're only playing on HavenWorks.
02:11:05 <pikhq> elliott: Let x264 use very high quantisers when it wouldn't matter.
02:11:20 <elliott> pikhq: Actually... you could probably quantise it a bit and still get a lossless encode, right?
02:11:25 <elliott> I don't know how itw orks.
02:12:00 <pikhq> Quantisation is removing information from the discrete cosine transform so that it can be packed in less space.
02:12:28 <Gregor> elliott: Not from him.
02:12:34 <elliott> Gregor: Oh. Who was that from?
02:12:40 <elliott> pikhq: Well, right, still. Bah :P
02:12:47 <Sgeo> /me should be doing homework
02:12:53 <Sgeo> Grrr extraneous space fail
02:13:00 <Gregor> elliott: The one with times was a Michael, this is a Brian :P
02:13:05 <calamari> Gregor: maybe this is too Mario-ish, but how about killing by double-jumping underneath?
02:13:09 <elliott> Gregor: What did Michael get? :P
02:13:16 <Sgeo> Great, now I'm giddy
02:13:19 <elliott> It's nice to have to be careful with jumps.
02:13:23 <Gregor> elliott: I don't recall and I don't want to check 'cuz I'm doin' stuff :P
02:13:37 <Sgeo> And don't wanna leave IRC
02:14:33 * Sgeo wonders how low he can make his alarm clock now that he has external speakers
02:15:49 <pikhq> elliott: So, what I'm going to do is play games tonight and watch this film tomorrow. Because it seems awesome.
02:16:26 <Gregor> Conveniently, he posted this to describe his location: http://xyzw.org/files/websplat.png
02:16:48 <elliott> Gregor: The man is a machine.
02:17:03 <elliott> Gregor: I... tell him to play some more.
02:17:36 <Gregor> elliott: To be fair, we have no idea how long it took him to get that far :P
02:18:03 <elliott> Gregor: Not as long as us.
02:20:16 * Gregor cracks his knuckles and tries HavenWorks again.
02:20:42 <elliott> Gregor: 539@1329 currently
02:21:10 <Gregor> New suffix: "A" means alive and still playing, "F" means alive but forfeited.
02:21:23 <elliott> Gregor: Alive and still playing can just be foo@bar.
02:21:32 <elliott> It's images@time[endgameresult], isn't it?
02:21:37 <Gregor> But I wurve suffixes! :P
02:21:37 <elliott> That makes the most sense.
02:21:45 <elliott> Gregor: Because foo@bar becomes foo@barD if you die.
02:21:56 <elliott> Gregor: F for forfeited is good though.
02:22:11 <elliott> Gregor: Although couldn't you just say "x@y and I give up"? :P
02:22:36 <elliott> Oh boy, tons of enemies in one place.
02:23:01 <Gregor> elliott: You could also say "x@y and I died"
02:23:44 <Sgeo> WebSplat has enemies now?
02:23:54 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouuld be willing to open Chrome
02:24:29 <elliott> Sgeo: It's had enemies for days.
02:24:32 * Sgeo has no desire to install Firefox
02:26:01 * Sgeo WTFs at "OBAMA TV"
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02:26:25 <elliott> Gregor: This game would be good at improving children's literacy!
02:26:46 <elliott> Gregor: You could sell it as that though :P
02:27:42 <elliott> pikhq: Dude, you should play. :P
02:29:34 * Sgeo let some dog put him out of his misery
02:29:50 <elliott> Gregor: Two dogs were on top of each other (har har har).
02:29:53 <elliott> Gregor: I jumped and killed one.
02:29:59 <elliott> Gregor: The other then managed to move and kill me.
02:30:34 <Gregor> OK, that's pretty wonky ...
02:30:51 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I didn't see it before it happened -- they were below me. So I may not be representing it entirely accurately. But whatever :P
02:31:04 <elliott> Jumped, saw dog die, rebounded, dog whacked me.
02:31:14 <elliott> Before rebound, did not notice dog moving really.
02:31:31 <elliott> Gregor: This is harder than Luigi's Purple Coins.
02:31:42 <elliott> And if you've ever played Luigi's Purple Coins, you know that's saying something.
02:32:24 <elliott> pikhq: You said you were gonna play games, play this one :P
02:33:55 <Gregor> The chance of falling in such a way that an enemy kills you = falling damage 8-D
02:35:10 <elliott> You're saying it's already there, statistically :P
02:35:45 <Gregor> It's stochastic falling damage ;)
02:35:58 <elliott> Stochastically, that was the word I was looking for :P
02:36:40 <elliott> Gregor: The enemies seem to be more numerous this time around >__>
02:37:07 <Gregor> They're probably just higher.
02:37:15 <Gregor> It doesn't try very hard to spread them evenly.
02:38:05 <elliott> Gregor: The new bounding boxes are way better, btw.
02:38:14 <elliott> I've come out on the right end of a few close calls.
02:39:11 <Gregor> (09:36:16 PM) brianrogers83: Laptop arrow keys are not very ergonomic. If I make another attempt, it will be with a Wiimote.
02:39:36 <elliott> Gregor: Dude... tell him about WASD.
02:39:54 <elliott> Gregor: He did all that with laptop arrow keys?
02:39:58 <elliott> Gregor: WTF IS HE ACTUALLY HUMAN
02:40:06 <Gregor> And apparently not, respectively.
02:40:43 <elliott> Gregor: He didn't even go slowly, according to that time in the 3000s.
02:40:54 <elliott> Gregor: What did you get? :P
02:41:05 <Gregor> I'm not dead, I just fell somewhere perhaps-irrecoverable.
02:41:36 <Gregor> Yup, can't get up from here.
02:41:46 <Gregor> There go my dreams of perfect completion :(
02:42:05 <elliott> Gregor: It's the bloody enemies. *obvious*
02:42:23 <elliott> Gregor: This is your chance to use the F suffix!
02:42:29 <elliott> Tell us your final score and time!
02:42:50 <Gregor> I'm too busy weeping openly.
02:43:07 <elliott> Gregor: but srsly, what score
02:44:29 <Sgeo> What's so bad about arrow keys??
02:45:02 <elliott> Gregor: That time is... pitiful :P
02:45:31 <Gregor> elliott: I was taking it slow, trying to be complete and not die.
02:45:36 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-2010-10-24-whereTheHellAmI.png
02:45:46 <elliott> Sgeo: ...are you deliberately being dense?
02:45:51 <elliott> *being deliberately dense?
02:45:57 <elliott> Gregor: Try the rightmost column.
02:46:03 <Sgeo> O....k [j/k on that one]
02:46:03 <elliott> Gregor: Sometimes there are hidden platforms there.
02:46:12 <Sgeo> These arrow keys are a little smaller, but so what
02:46:12 <Gregor> elliott: ... OK, I will.
02:46:16 <elliott> Gregor: Also... rocking Raleigh there I see :P
02:46:51 <Sgeo> I need to do homework at some point
02:46:55 <Gregor> OH GOD OH GOD NO HIDDEN PLATFORMS OH GOD WHYYYYY
02:48:05 <Gregor> elliott: Well now I'm REALLY stuck :P
02:48:06 <elliott> Gregor: Then try autoerotic asphyxiation.
02:48:22 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-2010-10-24-2-imInHell.png
02:49:20 <Sgeo> Dear Facebook: If you actually used my information, you'd know I'm an atheist. So why are you advertising a dating site with Christian girls? However interested I may be in them, if they're on such a site, they're not going to be interrested in me
02:50:01 <Gregor> Sgeo: They probably target those ads at atheists in hopes of converting.
02:50:05 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-2010-10-24-3-DAMNYOUHAVENWORKS.png
02:50:17 <Gregor> Time for a different strategy ...
02:50:34 <elliott> Gregor: Oho, an Xfce user.
02:50:40 <elliott> Are you sure you're not a racist?
02:50:43 <Sgeo> Or it's just that since religious views is a text field...
02:51:32 <Sgeo> "What church were you raised in?"
02:51:47 <Sgeo> "How often do you attend church?"
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02:52:12 <Sgeo> How about I not give you my actual zip code
02:53:53 <Gregor> If you select anything but "Every Sunday and for social visits" for "How often do you attend church?", it won't let you register.
02:54:40 <pikhq> elliott: So, this is a dating site for monks, is it?
02:54:48 <Sgeo> Gregor, seriously?
02:54:55 <Sgeo> It got to asking me for name and DOB
02:55:01 <Sgeo> And I put "special occasions"
02:55:10 <Gregor> elliott: Well if you were raised in a church, you may as well continue to live there.
02:55:10 * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
02:55:24 <elliott> `addquote * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
02:55:33 <elliott> Add it to quotes.db manually mon
02:55:36 <Gregor> Down for the indefinite future.
02:55:58 <elliott> M is down for the indefinite future.
02:58:47 <elliott> SOMEONE ASK ABOUT MY NEW ESOLANG
02:58:55 <elliott> Also it's only slightly eso.
02:58:59 <Sgeo> elliott, what's your new esolang?
02:59:05 <elliott> Also I basically ripped the idea off of cpressey who ripped it off of me.
02:59:08 <elliott> Sgeo: NO SOMEONE INTERESTING
02:59:17 <Sgeo> I'm not interesting?
02:59:58 <Sgeo> elliott, I know you're just using my name as a placeholder for yourself in your fantasies
03:00:08 <Sgeo> </too-longwinded-to-be-a-good-anything>
03:00:12 <elliott> Yes... I fantasise about cutting myself...
03:05:39 <elliott> Gregor: You still playing?
03:06:28 <Gregor> No, my fingers exploded.
03:08:57 <elliott> Gregor: I'll play if you do :P
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03:13:55 <elliott> Gregor's fingers have overloaded so much that he can't type.
03:18:03 <Sgeo> elliottfingers [ explode ] each
03:19:21 <Gregor> elliott: Rarely, things need to get done that AREN'T websplat :P
03:19:32 <elliott> Gregor: Bahahahahahahahahahaha at 3:19 am?
03:19:39 <elliott> Therefore websplat due to logic.
03:19:54 <elliott> Gregor: MAYBE IN COMMUNIST TIME
03:20:15 <Gregor> Last I checked, YOU'RE closer to the REDS.
03:21:55 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to FriendComputer.
03:22:11 <FriendComputer> Attention: Free t-shirts will be given to all communists.
03:22:21 <Gregor> elliott: NOW THEN, BACK TO THE FRAY
03:22:22 <FriendComputer> Please report to the nearest termination booth for your free t-shirt.
03:23:11 <elliott> Gregor: Wouldn't it be great if it turns out there's two images that are too far apart to get both, and there's no way up after you go down one?
03:23:32 <elliott> <Gregor> That... would be something like the opposite of great.
03:24:00 -!- FriendComputer has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:24:05 <Sgeo> I got 0 homework done
03:28:28 <Sgeo> It's a large essay
03:30:08 <Gregor> 290@435D I suck so much.
03:31:27 <Sgeo> What's the second number?
03:32:40 <elliott> Gregor: Thought: Maybe we could do it one column at a time.
03:32:49 <Gregor> elliott: That was my strategy.
03:33:01 <Gregor> elliott: I was going right-to-left since it's usually easier to scale a left column.
03:33:07 <Gregor> elliott: That's how I ended up screwed :P
03:33:18 <elliott> Gregor: Worth trying, do you think?
03:33:28 <Gregor> elliott: Sure, just don't make the same mistake I did :P
03:33:59 <elliott> Gregor: Any strategy tips from Mr. Inhuman? :P
03:34:14 <elliott> Gregor: Also, did you do the little columns at the same time as the big one?
03:34:17 <elliott> Because there's a few little column.
03:34:28 <elliott> Specifically the one to the right of Weblog, with all the pictures in it.
03:35:22 <elliott> Gregor: So what mistake did you make? :P
03:36:04 <Gregor> elliott: While I was climbing down the second-from-the-right column, I slipped a bit and discovered that the bottom of that column goes WAY farther than the others. As a result I slipped a LOT.
03:36:19 <elliott> Gregor: How many actual columns did you do at a time?
03:36:37 <elliott> (I don't count the really thin blue-background one as a real column, rightwards.)
03:36:40 <Gregor> I did one big plus any smalls between it and the next big.
03:36:47 <elliott> Gregor: There's only two bigs.
03:37:01 <Gregor> I consider four of them to be bigs.
03:37:07 <Gregor> All but the tiny ones, really *shrugs*
03:37:13 <elliott> Gregor: There's only one tiny one :P
03:37:19 <elliott> And it doesn't have much in it at all.
03:38:15 <Gregor> I just accidentally CLICKED ON A LINK
03:38:34 <elliott> Gregor: How... did you do that.
03:38:43 <elliott> "I'm just going to move the mouse now! On to this link! And press the button!"
03:38:53 <Gregor> elliott: I had clicked the address bar to pause, then chose a bad point to click back into the game.
03:39:12 -!- Decarabia has joined.
03:39:33 <elliott> Gregor: I'm totally retryin'
03:39:37 <elliott> Gregor: Also, you did the huge top bit first, right?
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03:39:44 <calamari> Gregor: how does websplat handle tables?
03:40:20 <Gregor> calamari: TDs are never considered platforms. Uhh, and that's pretty much it.
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03:41:01 <Gregor> calamari: Feel free to just read the relevant code, it's really not that complicated.
03:41:38 <Gregor> calamari: Specifically look at the initElementPlatforms function
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03:42:16 <elliott> Gregor: So, I should do the second-to-last column last, right?
03:42:21 <elliott> Also, wtf at influx of new people.
03:42:52 <Gregor> elliott: I don't recommend my strategy :P
03:42:58 <elliott> Gregor: I RECOMMEND YOUR STRATEGY
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03:44:01 <elliott> Decarabia, brana, Chachi, caitie.
03:44:07 <elliott> Where did you guys come from :P
03:44:31 <elliott> right now more usefully, answer that question
03:44:47 <Chachi> the same place, elliott
03:45:00 <elliott> I gathered it was all one place, the question is which place it was that was the place.
03:45:04 <caitie> not a good place to bathe
03:45:17 <branan> foonetic. xkcd-folks told us about this place
03:45:23 <Chachi> from a rather backwater IRC network
03:45:27 <branan> and it was generally called "the best computer science channel ever"
03:46:39 <elliott> Yes, I lead this tribe into lands unheard of.
03:46:43 <elliott> Then we rape and pillage everyone.
03:46:56 <Sgeo> I did not deliberately introduce anyone to #esoteric today
03:47:55 <calamari> hmm well I kinda got this travesty working
03:48:00 <elliott> Decarabia: Chachi: caitie: branan: http://codu.org/websplat/ play this on http://havenworks.com/ if you want to totally get in the mood for this channel. Since it's all we've been doing for days.
03:48:08 <elliott> Bother Gregor with your endless bug reports of silliness. Mwahaha.
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03:48:35 <Gregor> What IS with the influx of people.
03:48:35 <elliott> I think the last time we had this many people we were on reddit.
03:48:51 <Gregor> I'm guessing we're about to get botnet-flooded.
03:48:55 <elliott> Gregor: quintopia decided that telling an xkcd channel that we exist
03:49:09 <caitie> why were youon reddit? are you famous?
03:49:10 <CatSandwich> One of your friends on foonetic mentioned this channel
03:49:17 <elliott> We're famous rapists-and-pillagers.
03:49:42 <Gregor> elliott: I have died on havenworks SO MANY TIMES in SO MANY STUPID WAYS
03:49:44 <Gregor> elliott: It makes my brain hurt.
03:49:49 <caitie> so i can get a rape off?
03:49:51 <branan> O_O it's like the perfect websplat page
03:49:53 <elliott> Gregor: That's what she said.
03:49:55 <Gregor> elliott: And yet, I'm not complaining about the collision mechanics :P
03:50:04 <elliott> branan: I... you know what websplat is?
03:50:09 <elliott> Has quintopia just been PIPING THIS CHANNEL into there?
03:50:11 <Gregor> branan: We're all trying to see who can do the best on it ... we are not doing well :P
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03:50:15 <Gregor> elliott: You ... just told him?
03:50:44 <Chachi> it hurts my eyes and my brain
03:50:53 <elliott> Chachi: You get used to it.
03:50:56 <elliott> After a while you stop seeing colours.
03:51:03 <Gregor> And see only ... websplat.
03:51:21 <elliott> Chachi: Then you are not welcome! This is now the official WebSplat channel.
03:51:21 <Chachi> I'm already partially colorblind
03:51:27 <elliott> See, now you can experience the real thing!
03:51:36 <elliott> Your colourblind now is, like, retarded./
03:51:57 <elliott> You see, we're also all devout Christians.
03:52:00 <Gregor> elliott: What a bizarre sequence of words.
03:52:09 <caitie> jesus is full of holes
03:52:24 <elliott> Gregor: That's what the antelope imbibed after criss-crossing the milk of a father's horticultural orgy.
03:52:56 * elliott resorts to Standard Initiate Procedure en masse
03:53:02 <elliott> All of you: http://esolangs.org/
03:53:07 <elliott> Specifically, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
03:53:09 <Chachi> again with the babbling
03:53:32 <caitie> do i want to click that link?
03:53:40 <elliott> caitie: Well, it is our website, so yes.
03:53:54 <elliott> Actually this predates the website and the website was founded independently. But still.
03:53:55 <Gregor> That is the website associated with this channel :P
03:54:44 <caitie> oh, this esoteric i a prog lang. i see
03:54:45 <Decarabia> Hm, websplat doesn't seem to like loading on that page for me. I'll just blame java and be done with it. Kick ass is all right though.
03:55:11 <Gregor> Decarabia: Blaming Java is weird since it doesn't use any.
03:55:33 <elliott> caitie: Yes, but very rarely are esolangs discussed. We complain a lot though!
03:56:17 <elliott> Yes, well, all the endless expanses of complainers are sleeping right now. Also, can I offer you a new spacebar?
03:56:34 <Chachi> I'd totally write a bot in one of these
03:56:48 <Chachi> but I am too lazy and don't know jack shit about that sort of thing
03:57:16 <fungot> elliott: almost fell asleep here. :p http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ drunk_blogging probably has some trivial procedure to do it, actually?
03:57:19 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
03:57:22 <elliott> Chachi: See that link for the full horror.
03:57:48 <caitie> my main priority right now is keeping warm, not typing well
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03:58:14 <Chachi> looks like the time my cat tried to type
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03:58:37 <Gregor> HAHAHAHA, elliott: (10:56:48 PM) brianrogers83: Complete SMB2j and unlock the bonus worlds. Then you'll be good at websplat.
03:58:50 <elliott> Gregor: OH BOY THAT SOUNDS LIKE ENDLESS FUN.
03:59:00 <elliott> Gregor: ALTHOUGH MAYBE I'LL KILL MYSELF INSTEAD
03:59:02 <Gregor> Well, there's your advice :P
04:00:48 <elliott> Gregor: HavenWorks.com+A-Z and then the beta pages thing is the end of the first column, right?
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04:01:31 <Sgeo> Hi CatSandwich
04:01:37 * Gregor watches elliott scramble at splatting :P
04:01:39 <Sgeo> Please don't mind the causticness
04:02:28 <elliott> Gregor: Your method does indeed suck :P
04:02:44 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, that's why I'm not using it any more :P
04:03:38 <Sgeo> I think certain people's habits of distrusting anyone I bring here has been extended to anyone broght here by anyone
04:04:41 * Sgeo has homework he needs to do :/
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04:06:43 <elliott> Gregor: How's your current game going?
04:08:52 -!- CatSandwich has left (?).
04:10:51 <Gregor> elliott: It went outside with the fire alarm :P
04:11:08 <elliott> Gregor's fingers caught fire.
04:11:13 <elliott> Gregor: or wait, was that your joke
04:11:29 <elliott> Gregor: 'cuz i'm totally playing and you're lagging behind
04:11:38 <elliott> Gregor: but i just hit 700
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04:16:27 <Gregor> elliott: 252@260D GOD I SUCK
04:16:37 <elliott> Gregor: Yes you do. 364@1390 atm.
04:16:53 <Gregor> http://i54.tinypic.com/iycsw2.png <-- best - thing - ever
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04:21:04 <Gregor> OK, back into the fray ..
04:22:12 <catseye> <elliott> Especially with codu.org because the hat has a fucking hat.
04:22:22 <catseye> Yo dawg, I heard you like... oh n/m
04:23:58 * Gregor configures his joystick.
04:25:51 <catseye> <zzo38> I don't know what would be the financial equivalent of "list comprehensions" or "co-routines". Do you have an idea?
04:26:33 <catseye> I would say they're trying to blow our minds, but I know it isn't true; they're just clueless.
04:27:35 <catseye> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, not sure about pizzas.
04:27:44 <catseye> I totally saw the WP article on it so it must be true
04:32:00 <elliott> catseye: i stole your language, rho
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04:33:19 <catseye> elliott: give it back, thief!
04:33:21 <catseye> <Phantom_Failer> Gregor, you should try Townlands. The long fall is very relaxing.
04:33:48 <catseye> I have found blog posts with lots of comments provide an opportunity to do a long drop down the left edge collecting avatar icons.
04:33:59 <catseye> Something very NES about that.
04:35:30 <calamari> had a roguelike question for you
04:35:47 <elliott> Gregor: How goes the joysticking?
04:35:58 <Gregor> elliott: Not as much better as I'd hoped :P
04:36:08 <catseye> <Gregor> "Unknown runtime error"
04:36:23 <catseye> the beautiful, beautiful fail
04:36:54 <elliott> Gregor: Oh shit, huge fall again.
04:36:55 <catseye> I thought it was IE9 from context, but yeah, there is no way you could get your hands on one so quick, i would think
04:37:05 <calamari> catseye: so I have an idea for the action of a multiplayer roguelike that somewhat retains turn-based movement: if any player moves, then the monsters get a chance to move. however, the monsters are not able to attack anyone who hasn't taken a turn yet.
04:37:55 <calamari> catseye: would that "feel" roguelike, in your opinion?
04:38:28 <elliott> Gregor: You can sort of climb up text using the ragged edge...
04:39:04 <calamari> lol you guys still trying to beat that huge political page?
04:40:50 <catseye> calamari: i suppose, except it seems like the monsters might have an incredible speed advantage if they can move every time *any* player moves...
04:41:50 <calamari> catseye: yeah they would. not sure how to balance that.. let's say I took a fraction of players, now if only one player moves, he is then super fast comparedto the monster
04:41:56 <catseye> <zzo38> alise: If I was designing TeX, instead of Knuth, it would not have a \outer command. The \outer command can cause a lot of problems.
04:42:03 <catseye> zzo38 should totally design Knuth
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04:42:46 <Gregor> <Gregor> elliott: 507@1096D :(
04:42:48 <Gregor> <Gregor> catseye: I'm sorry, wrong, that WAS IE9. I got a similar nonsense error from Chrome.
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04:45:26 <calamari> Gregor: did you try the mario level?
04:46:07 <elliott> Gregor: I need a PS3 controller.
04:46:28 <elliott> Gregor: Although what the PS3 controller needs is the analogue stick to be where the useless d-pad is.
04:46:47 <calamari> Gregor: http://70.162.184.205:980/mario.html
04:46:51 <Gregor> elliott: For this you definitely need a D-pad.
04:47:08 <elliott> Gregor: Not if you assign down to a button.
04:47:13 <elliott> Gregor: For instance, one of the Ls or Rs.
04:47:19 <Gregor> elliott: OK, fair enough.
04:47:29 <elliott> Gregor: Now you go try that :P (Except... maybe the back toggle on the joystick?)
04:47:33 <Gregor> calamari: That will definitely not work.
04:47:58 <Gregor> calamari: ... HOW oh wait ... damn, does this work how I fear it works >_O
04:48:15 <Gregor> Never mind, if that works I have no idea why.
04:48:15 <calamari> well I didn't use tables.. just pre
04:48:42 <Gregor> calamari: But it doesn't consider every individual character to be a platform ...
04:48:57 <elliott> I think calamari needs schooling on HTML.
04:49:02 <elliott> Last I checked there is no f element.
04:49:04 <calamari> nope because the spaces aren't surrounded by tags
04:49:12 <elliott> <html><body style="background-color:#5c94fc"><pre style="font-size:1px">
04:49:33 <elliott> I... calamari's code is as insane as he is, I guess.
04:49:43 <calamari> elliott: yeah it's definitely not pretty
04:50:01 <calamari> I needed a tag.. f works, has no side effects
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04:50:33 <calamari> html ignores tags it doesn't understand
04:51:00 <elliott> That is the worst definition of validity ever, and the worst attribution of *actions* to an *abstract specifications* ever too.
04:51:02 <Gregor> Well, that kills my browser.
04:51:13 <Gregor> Holy eff it DOES work O_O
04:51:17 <elliott> <"I¬<>> :R~@Q"*)I¬ &poop;<qwerty style="£$*( your mom
04:51:21 <elliott> It's valid HTML because browsers parse it!
04:51:23 <calamari> jesus elliott would you quit trying to pick fights with me
04:51:38 <elliott> Sorry, I'll never criticise anything you ever say again.
04:51:39 <Gregor> calamari: That ... is obscene.
04:51:40 <calamari> I don't care that you hate me.. just shut up
04:51:52 <elliott> You could just /ignore me again...
04:52:04 <calamari> no it was making it hard to follow the conversation
04:52:06 <Gregor> calamari: BTW, in Firefox it fails to make it the right size :P
04:52:12 <elliott> That's sort of entirely not my fault at all.
04:52:31 <calamari> Gregor: yeah that's going to depend on a lot of factors
04:53:20 <Gregor> In Chrome it works but is freaking right the eff out X-D
04:53:24 <calamari> my proportional is "monospace"
04:53:37 <Gregor> Of course the better way to do this would be anything other than 1px colored spaces :P
04:54:17 <calamari> Gregor: open to suggestions :)
04:54:35 <Gregor> calamari: Well, given that your input is presumably an image, you're kinda stuck :P
04:54:48 <Gregor> What I mean is you should have actual elements for bricks, pipes, etc.
04:55:14 <calamari> then you wouldn't be able to sink into objects too
04:55:57 <Gregor> Frankly I'm surprised it didn't just shit itself and die :P
04:59:21 <catseye> <elliott> When did this channel become #nih?
04:59:44 <catseye> no, there was no #nih... UNTIL NOW
05:00:26 <elliott> catseye: I don't like your #nih.
05:00:37 <elliott> I designed it to be how *I* wantedi t.
05:00:47 <Gregor> I'm creating ##nih-developers and ##nih-users
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05:03:30 <Gregor> elliott: <Gregor> Can you make it Alise's Gregor's NIH instead?
05:03:41 <Gregor> I want to make Frederick's Alise's Gregor's NIH
05:03:49 <elliott> Gregor: #aegnih, Alise's Elliott's Gregor's NIH
05:03:51 <Gregor> Or rather, get somebody named Frederick to do it.
05:03:55 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, we're rebranding! #ægnih
05:04:03 <elliott> but that doesn't stop our ambitions.
05:04:24 <elliott> Gregor: I've always wanted to call someone a fæg.
05:04:32 <elliott> They're both fags AND fegs!
05:06:13 <catseye> <elliott> Psst, cpressey doesn't know this, but I've totally stolen his language.
05:06:23 <catseye> yeah give it back, asshole
05:06:44 <elliott> catseye: but you don't even know what it is yet!
05:07:20 <elliott> catseye: well you could ASK ME
05:07:33 <catseye> you already identified it as Rho
05:08:25 <elliott> catseye: well it's slightly different.
05:08:31 <elliott> although i never knew much about rho
05:09:33 <elliott> lol wikia redesigned again http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
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05:17:50 <Gregor> Anybody know of a way to mirror a page and embed all images as data URLs?
05:18:26 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. sed and wget.
05:18:55 <Gregor> Yes, because sed finds and converts images to data URLs X_X
05:19:10 <branan> I think wget has a flag to do magic and pull down all the images along with all the HTML data
05:19:20 <elliott> branan: that doesn't help make them into data: uris
05:19:27 <Gregor> branan: It does, the difficult step is converting them all to data URIs
05:19:43 <branan> should be doable with sed and a bit of magic
05:19:54 <elliott> Gregor: curl page; s/<img ([^>]+) src=([^ ]+)/<img $1 src=data:blah,$(curl $2 | encode)/g
05:20:05 <elliott> Gregor: This works for a page that you know it works for and is extremely brittle otherwise :p
05:20:16 <elliott> Gregor: Actually, I could cook something up with Beautiful Soup pretty trivially.
05:21:05 <elliott> Gregor: Probably mirroring a page for WebSplat.
05:21:12 <elliott> Gregor: And I see no reason to do that with data: at all >_<
05:21:45 <Gregor> I'm just wondering if a page like HavenWorks would actually be smaller that way.
05:21:55 <Gregor> Since the images are so small and a HTTP request is not tiny.
05:21:59 <elliott> Gregor: Unlikely, since it uses the same image a *lot*.
05:22:11 <elliott> That red-on-yellow cross thing.
05:22:15 <Gregor> Ohyeah, it uses the same image over and over, right.
05:22:24 <elliott> Gregor: You could do it with JS.
05:22:35 <elliott> Gregor: Have an array of images, then have some code that goes through a bunch of img elements and sets it.
05:22:44 <elliott> Gregor: i.e. by having each image become a class instead.
05:22:57 <Gregor> Oh good, 'cuz I really didn't want to do that :P
05:23:53 <elliott> Gregor: You'll also want to minify the HTML, of course.
05:24:23 <Gregor> It was pure intellectual curiosity about bandwidth.
05:24:32 <elliott> If there's one thing I love it's pointlessness!
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05:29:36 <elliott> Gregor: Apparently there are only two images on the entire page...
05:30:20 <elliott> <table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" cols="1" width="100%" bgcolor="#33FF33">
05:30:21 <elliott> <center></center></td></tr></table></body></html>
05:30:21 <elliott> <img src="images/logos/News-Reference-Facts-Information-Sources-Intelligence-Haven-Works.gif" alt="News Reference Facts Information Sources Intelligence Haven Works !-)" nosave height="16" width="16" />
05:30:22 <elliott> <img src="images/navigation/News-Subject-Topic.gif" alt="2008 ELECTION News" nosave border="0" height="14" width="13" />
05:30:25 <elliott> Gregor: havenworks is just that crazy.
05:30:48 <elliott> Going to use a different parser.
05:31:53 <elliott> Gregor: Ohh, it's too new a Beautiful Soup.
05:32:07 <elliott> They removed an underlying module in Python 3 and so Beautiful Soup 3.1 uses a less robust parser.
05:32:11 <elliott> And Ubuntu packages it because fuck you.
05:32:23 <pikhq> Yes, believe it or not, HTML parsers have to deal with a *lot* of bullshit.
05:32:27 <elliott> "The 3.1 series has been abandoned. The 3.0 series is still under development; use it instead."
05:32:45 <pikhq> It's not valid HTML or XHTML or, indeed, valid anything.
05:33:02 <pikhq> http://www.wickedlocal.com/swampscott/news/lifestyle/columnists/x124609719/DAN-KLINE-COLUMN-Movie-critics-have-lost-all-credibility On another note, this is STUPID.
05:33:17 <elliott> pikhq: is that the one where he says-- yup
05:33:21 <elliott> animated films are for KIDS guddurnit!
05:33:36 <pikhq> elliott: Also the one where he disliked the film.
05:33:40 <elliott> Meanwhile Japan stares at Daniel B. Kline and says, "You show your KIDS that shit? Jesus man... you're fucked up."
05:33:50 <elliott> (It's funny because Japan is perverted)
05:33:55 <pikhq> I just saw that for the first time. (so much for playing games)
05:34:03 <elliott> pikhq: DOOD HAVENWORKS WEBSPLAT
05:34:15 <pikhq> And as per *absolutely usual*, Up was a brilliant film by Pixar.
05:34:25 <elliott> Gregor: omg it uses no css at all
05:34:37 <pikhq> (seriously, are they capable of making a film that isn't at least pretty good?)
05:34:48 <elliott> pikhq: Steve Jobs and the Fart App
05:34:58 <pikhq> elliott: Oh dear God nonono.
05:35:05 <Gregor> elliott: Unsurprising, this is 1992 web "design"
05:35:28 <elliott> Gregor: Rate the awesomeness of this class name from 9 to 100000000:
05:35:32 <elliott> images_navigation_indexbox_HavenGIFs_thumbs_TELECOMMUNICATIONS_News_TELECOM_News_COMMUNICATIONS_News_TELEPHONE_News_PHONE_News_gif
05:35:49 <Gregor> Your scale doesn't go high enough.
05:35:58 <pikhq> Gregor: Geocities "design".
05:36:07 <elliott> pikhq: no, geocities is like
05:36:13 <elliott> this is geocities raised to an art form
05:36:18 <elliott> and with... surprising structure
05:36:30 <pikhq> elliott: You're right, it's the *paragon* of Geocities design.
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05:36:54 <elliott> <img alt="News Reference Facts Information Sources Intelligence HavenWorks.com" nosave="NOSAVE" border="2" height="85" width="85" class="images_logos_News_Reference_Facts_Information_Sources_Intelligence_HavenWorks_com_gif" />
05:37:03 <elliott> I love how BeautifulSoup decided to add />.
05:37:15 <elliott> Gregor: wait. This won't render the same, will it?
05:37:37 <Gregor> I have nooooo idea X-D
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05:37:58 <catseye> pikhq: Can you set the content-disposition of a page from in a meta tag inside it?
05:38:09 <pikhq> catseye: I dunno what that even is.
05:39:02 <catseye> pikhq: apparently not official HTTP/1.1 material, so, best not go there, I suppose.
05:39:40 <catseye> Just trying to think of a way to easily make my website be served as actual XHTML.
05:39:59 <catseye> content-disposition can "suggest" the mime type, iirc
05:40:05 <pikhq> catseye: Can you change your .htaccess?
05:40:17 <catseye> pikhq: no, i am on el cheapo hosting.
05:40:23 <elliott> catseye: Just convert it to HTML 5 :P
05:40:36 <pikhq> Or HTML 4, if you dislike using working drafts.
05:40:39 <catseye> elliott: yes, get on that will you
05:40:56 <elliott> catseye: then s/doctypes/<!doctype html>/g
05:41:02 <elliott> you're welcome, that will be $200
05:41:25 <catseye> elliott: hm, my site seems to be EXACTLY THE SAME AS IT WAS WHEN I ASKED YOU TO FIX IT
05:41:39 <elliott> catseye: UNFORTUNATELY THE USER MUST RUN SHELL SCRIPTS FOR THEMSELVES, I CAN ONLY OFFER THEM GUIDANCE
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05:42:27 <elliott> <pikhq> Or HTML 4, if you dislike using working drafts.
05:42:38 <elliott> yes, because solid, well-adhered-to standards matter in web development :P
05:43:18 <pikhq> elliott: Well, given that we're insisting he use a standard rather than bizarro HTML-with-an-xml-statement, I'd say it does. :P
05:43:51 <pikhq> By "we" I mean "I".
05:43:58 <elliott> Gregor: ...there's no getElementsByClass, is there. RAGE
05:44:32 <Gregor> 1) There is a getElementsByClassName (or something like that), 2) You really ought to use jQuery since getElementsByClassName doesn't work on IE (but then, who cares)
05:44:38 <Gregor> Err, I think it's ByClassName ...
05:44:58 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, including jQuery would bloat the size of the page amazingly :P
05:47:52 <catseye> pikhq: I am taking it as something of a challenge to solve in a creative way. I ... might be able to use .htaccess files but I'd have to have one in every directory? That... converting it all to HTML 4 looks more attractive.
05:48:34 <elliott> Gregor: Uncaught ReferenceError: getElementsByClassName is not defined
05:48:46 <catseye> I should experiment with this, though
05:51:43 <elliott> Gregor: What WOULD be awesome though is making a page that links to other pages with data:, which then *link back to the original page*.
05:51:50 <catseye> http://www.smackthemouse.com/xhtmlxml You can totally trust him on web practices because his domain is called smackthemouse.com and in his picture he looks like he's out hunting pheasant.
05:52:10 <elliott> where Y is the source of the second and X the source of the first, in data: form
05:52:27 <Gregor> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:52:48 <elliott> catseye: "On selvmade dog sledge in Ammassalik 1999."
05:52:53 <elliott> catseye: http://www.smackthemouse.com/jesper
05:55:03 <elliott> catseye: here's the standard not-very-helpful rant http://hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml
05:55:12 <Gregor> I like that his main activity "at the moment" is in the past.
05:55:48 <catseye> Well... turns out I *can* use .htaccess. http://catseye.tc/ is now truly XHTML! (the front page, anyway)
05:55:59 <elliott> catseye: now IE doubly unworks!
05:56:26 <elliott> catseye: SHOULDN'T YOU GENERATE IT WITH XSLT
05:56:28 <Gregor> catseye: Oh god don't get him started.
05:56:43 <elliott> Gregor: He started hours ago. Except he isn't being annoying because he just hates you.
05:56:49 <elliott> What I'm saying is: he loves you.
05:57:03 <elliott> <elliott> What I'm saying is: he loves you.
05:57:03 <elliott> <catseye> elliott: I **DO**
05:57:08 <Gregor> Not him. The him who shall not be named.
05:57:19 <elliott> Gregor: The p i k to the headquarters?
05:57:24 <elliott> Gregor: That's whomof I was referringunto.
05:57:29 <catseye> It's like the "DO" has Energy Wings
05:57:42 <elliott> Gregor: Now proceed to participate in a terrible gay romcom.
05:58:05 <elliott> catseye: What does the PETulant Cursor actually do?
05:58:09 <catseye> I *do* generate it with XSLT.
05:58:21 <elliott> catseye: Not the news page. Because ... XSLT tools don't spit out invalid XML in my world.
05:58:31 <catseye> Now please stop leading the conversation in direction where delays cause hilarity to ensue.
05:58:59 * Gregor looks for an offline HTML5 validator...
05:59:15 <catseye> elliott: I... well I'm pretty sure I am. Maybe I am also screwing with it. Oh... it's because RSS is retarded, probably.
05:59:15 <elliott> Gregor: validator.nu is open source.
05:59:23 <elliott> Gregor: See http://about.validator.nu/.
05:59:37 <catseye> The way to put tags in RSS entries is to ESCAPE the freaking angle brackets.
05:59:37 <elliott> Gregor: It has a web service, also.
05:59:45 <elliott> catseye: Just use Atom. Srsly.
05:59:48 <Gregor> elliott: What I want is for it to NOT have a web service.
05:59:52 <elliott> Gregor: Therefore use the source.
06:00:00 <elliott> catseye: take a look at this: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/02/04/incompatible-rss
06:00:03 <elliott> catseye: prepare to lose faith in humanity
06:00:24 <elliott> catseye: "There are 9 versions of RSS, all of which are incompatible with various other versions. RSS 0.90 is incompatible with Netscape’s RSS 0.91, Netscape’s RSS 0.91 is incompatible with Userland’s RSS 0.91, Netscape’s RSS 0.91 is incompatible with RSS 1.0, Userland’s RSS 0.91 is incompatible with RSS 0.92, RSS 0.92 is incompatible with RSS 0.93, RSS 0.93 is incompatible with RSS 0.94, RSS 0.94 is incompatible with RSS 2.0, and RSS 2
06:00:24 <elliott> .0 is incompatible with itself."
06:00:25 <Gregor> elliott: I hope it doesn't take hackery to do so ... *looks*
06:00:44 <elliott> Gregor: Python-based build script, it seems. For a Java project :P
06:00:45 <pikhq> elliott: ... How do RSS readers work at all?
06:00:50 <elliott> svn co https://whattf.svn.cvsdude.com/build/trunk/ build
06:00:55 <elliott> Gregor: "Yes, the last line is there twice intentionally. Running the script twice tends to fix a ClassCastException on the first run."
06:01:14 <elliott> pikhq: Did I mention that you can't actually tell all these versions apart?
06:01:24 <elliott> So you don't even *know* which wildly incompatible version you're looking at a lot of the time.
06:01:43 <elliott> pikhq: "This means that if a feed contains a <rating> element and declares itself as RSS 2.0, it is impossible to know whether the feed is valid unless you also know when the feed was created."
06:02:00 <pikhq> elliott: OH MY DEAR GOD THAT'S AWFUL.
06:02:09 <elliott> Mark Pilgrim is my tech writing hero.
06:02:19 <elliott> Never before have such dry facts been so hilarious.
06:02:51 <Gregor> elliott: Bleh, doesn't have an offline mode. WANT OFFLINE MODE >_<
06:02:54 <pikhq> It seems that RSS 1.0 is the only RSS that is usable.
06:03:05 <elliott> Gregor: ??? It's the Java software.
06:03:11 <pikhq> Hooray, W3C not being completely and utterly moronic.
06:03:23 <Gregor> elliott: I don't want to hack it to make it run from a command line.
06:03:38 <Gregor> elliott: The source they provides starts a web server.
06:03:48 <elliott> Gregor: Your mom starts a web server.
06:04:01 <Gregor> pikhq: You find me an HTML5 validator, and I will switch everything to HTML5.
06:04:07 <Gregor> pikhq: ONE THAT WORKS OFFLINE
06:04:20 <Gregor> pikhq: From a command line
06:04:24 * elliott wonders wtf Gregor wants it for
06:04:31 <elliott> You could just interface with the worb sirvir.
06:04:40 <elliott> Gregor: Run server locally, use curl
06:04:41 <Gregor> SUCH a pain in the ass X_X
06:04:44 <pikhq> Gregor: Due to being a working standard, impossible.
06:04:46 <elliott> Gregor: PROBLEM SOLVED ^____^
06:05:00 <pikhq> Gregor: Erm, working draft.
06:05:01 <Gregor> pikhq: That's a nonsense copout, there are validators of what exists thusfar.
06:05:05 <pikhq> Gregor: However, an HTML4 validator shouldn't be hard.
06:05:06 <elliott> Gregor: I think the w3c validator is "meant" to be able to do HTML5 now.
06:05:13 <elliott> pikhq has no idea what HTML 5 is or anything
06:05:16 <pikhq> Gregor: Grab an SGML validator and the HTML4 doctype.
06:05:18 <elliott> You're FUDding it to the max :P
06:05:19 <Gregor> elliott: Also not offline.
06:05:31 <catseye> yeah this is going to take a while to fix
06:05:32 <pikhq> elliott: It's a working draft. Not complete. Subject to change.
06:05:35 <elliott> Gregor: http://code.w3.org/unicorn/wiki/Documentation/Install
06:05:45 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but the W3C version changes very rarely.
06:05:47 <pikhq> elliott: Granted, much of it is rather stable, but that's beside the point.
06:05:48 <Gregor> elliott: THANK YOU HOORAY
06:05:52 <elliott> The WHATWG one is the one that gets active development.
06:05:59 <elliott> Gregor: I don't know how good it is at HTML 5.
06:06:28 <pikhq> Gregor: Just do HTML 4 and avoid SGML features that browsers don't parse. :)
06:06:36 <elliott> Gregor: It does purport to. So that should be fine.
06:06:36 <Gregor> Frankly I'd be happy with an HTML4 validator that doesn't barf at "<!DOCTYPE HTML>"
06:06:52 <pikhq> (ie HTML 4 that won't make an HTML 5 validator barf)
06:06:55 <coppro> ~/s/sc[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~/win 2
06:07:13 <catseye> elliott: yes, familiar with that. i think i link to it on my site
06:07:20 <catseye> elliott: should just go to atom, yes.
06:07:23 <elliott> <!DOCTYPE HTML> is, as far as I know, not.
06:07:44 <elliott> Gregor: If it's a valid HTML 5 doctype it's definitely not a valid XHTML 5 doctype and well it's just silly.
06:08:03 <Gregor> elliott: I hate you ALMOST as much as I hate pikhq w.r.t. HTML.'
06:08:21 <elliott> Gregor: You're the one who said you wanted to use HTML 5.
06:08:25 <elliott> I'm tellin' you your doctype is wrong :P
06:09:15 <elliott> gawd it is so slow to load
06:09:55 <elliott> my fan went on just to display the html 5 spec
06:10:07 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, it is actually valid.
06:10:10 <coppro> elliott: I assume you pinged me this weekend; I was off judging a massive Magic tourney so I did not see it and it left my scrollback
06:10:12 <elliott> Gregor: But still, it's fugly too :P
06:10:30 <Gregor> elliott: YOU ARE SERIOUSLY COMPLAINING ABOUT CAPITALIZATION OF THE DOCTYPE TAG.
06:10:37 <elliott> Gregor: I'm just trying to piss you off.
06:10:52 <Gregor> WELL AS YOU CAN PLAINLY SEE IT'S WORKING
06:11:08 <elliott> SHE WORKS IN THE GREGOR INDUSTRY
06:11:16 <elliott> ACTUAL PLURAL OF GREGOR: GREGAE
06:11:25 <elliott> codu.org is the site of ONE GREGÆ
06:11:27 <catseye> ACH PYTHON RE-UPGRADED ITSELF TO FUCKED PYTHON WHEN I INSTALLED REV
06:11:39 <elliott> catseye: so how goes BetNSD
06:11:54 <catseye> elliott: next trip down there i'm going to get a dmesg
06:12:13 <catseye> Of *course* NetBSD has dmesg!
06:12:21 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
06:12:31 <pikhq> Gregor: I suggest you make it valid HTML 1.0.
06:12:43 <elliott> !bf_txtgen Of *course* NetBSD has
06:13:23 <pikhq> (and yes, I know there is no such thing)
06:13:33 <elliott> Gregor: I need you to run bf_txtgen :P
06:13:58 <pikhq> elliott: The first released version was 1.1.
06:14:07 <pikhq> And that was a draft.
06:14:16 <pikhq> Before that it was unversioned.
06:14:21 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.++++++++++.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.----------.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.
06:14:21 <fungot> Of *course* NetBSD has
06:14:37 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html32
06:14:58 <fizzie> +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.++++++++++.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.----------.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.<<. this one has the trailing space too, hopefully.
06:15:07 <Gregor> How big is this damned unicorn :P
06:15:17 <elliott> Gregor: it also has the CSS validator and a sofijhdiojiog other validators :P
06:15:39 <Gregor> I know my CSS is invalid, as all CSS is, because I had to work around IE bugs :P
06:15:41 <elliott> fizzie: Does it set to 0 on EOF or no-change?
06:15:54 <pikhq> Gregor: Uh, you're doing it wrong.
06:15:57 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, all those important IE users visiting your website.
06:16:05 <pikhq> Gregor: IE supports conditional comments, you see.
06:16:11 <catseye> < elliott> catseye: What does the PETulant Cursor actually do?
06:16:14 <catseye> you have to run it and see
06:16:18 <pikhq> Gregor: You can make all other things see valid CSS and IE see the broken shit it wants.
06:16:27 <elliott> ^def does bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.++++++++++.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.----------.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.<<.,[.,]++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
06:16:34 <fungot> Of *course* NetBSD has NetBSD have whores?
06:16:54 <Gregor> pikhq: If you find yourself to be on fire, that would be because my thoughts have escaped my mind and become reality.
06:17:02 <elliott> ^def faq bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.++++++++++.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.----------.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.<<.,[.,]++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
06:17:07 <elliott> ^faq blackjack and hookers
06:17:08 <fungot> Of *course* NetBSD has blackjack and hookers
06:17:30 <elliott> ! is 33, it must be zero after the ]
06:17:33 <elliott> and then i set to 33 and print
06:17:56 <fizzie> The thing you're +'ing into might not be zero.
06:18:10 <elliott> fizzie: Yes it might, because the 33-setting comes right after a ].
06:18:28 <elliott> ^def faq bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.++++++++++.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.----------.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.<<.,[.,]>[-]<++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
06:18:34 <elliott> ^faq blackjack and hookers
06:18:35 <fungot> Of *course* NetBSD has blackjack and hookers!
06:18:51 <elliott> fizzie: can I be a jerk and ask for a non-starry version? the slogan has no emphasis >_>
06:19:07 <fizzie> +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.<<.
06:19:08 <elliott> admittedly it has no ! either, but
06:19:15 <pikhq> Gregor: Also, is your page *supposed* to render differently if downloaded via wget -p and then displayed from file:/// ?
06:19:22 <elliott> ^def faq bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>++.>>+++.<-.>---.>+.++++++.---.+.<++.<.<-.>>.>+.<<<------------.+++++++++++++++++.---------------.>.>+++.-------.>-.<<.,[.,]>[-]<++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
06:19:26 <elliott> ^faq blackjack and hookers
06:19:26 <fungot> Of course NetBSD has blackjack and hookers!
06:19:36 <fungot> Of course NetBSD has toaster support!
06:19:37 <Gregor> pikhq: YOU CANNOT STILL BE ON THIS FOR FUCKS SAKE
06:19:42 <pikhq> Wait, I wanted wget -pk.
06:19:50 <Gregor> pikhq: I never /ignore people, but you're wandering very close to a /ignore.
06:19:55 <elliott> ^faq a perfect rendering of Gregor's webpage. The problem is, you have to talk to pikhq to get it
06:19:55 <fungot> Of course NetBSD has a perfect rendering of Gregor's webpage. The problem is, you have to talk to pikhq to get it!
06:20:15 <elliott> Gregor: I never /ignored people, but then I /ignored some people and discovered how much happier I was.
06:20:21 <elliott> Now I ignore a whole two people!
06:20:32 <pikhq> Gregor: Hey, someone else brought it up.
06:21:06 <pikhq> Gregor: You appear to be actually sending out valid XHTML that "works" as HTML in the tag soup parser. So carry on.
06:21:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Just realise you do this to absolutely 0 benefit.
06:21:31 <elliott> Gregor won't maul you because you said ":P"!
06:21:55 <calamari> elliott: I wrote that bf text gen.. just fyi.. wouldn't want you to taint yourself :)
06:22:09 <pikhq> calamari: So much for that ignore. :P
06:22:16 <elliott> it's ok, there's better ones
06:22:19 <elliott> i'm just lazy and egobot has it.
06:22:24 <elliott> now if i actually *cared* about fungot...
06:22:25 <fungot> elliott: soon to be official phoenix packages ( added fnord, last i checked
06:22:30 <calamari> pikhq: yeah took it off a while ago
06:22:40 <calamari> pikhq: was too hard to follow the conversation
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06:23:16 <pikhq> elliott: The power of being vocal.
06:24:19 <pikhq> Why must IE suck so hard?
06:24:24 <elliott> pikhq: Because eurhauheuiguieghuiahriuaregh
06:24:31 <calamari> the javascript in chrome is a lot quicker than ff
06:25:06 <calamari> can actually move around that mario map without delay
06:25:33 <elliott> <calamari> the javascript in chrome is a lot quicker than ff <-- this only being, what, the *single* thing it was advertised with to start with
06:25:40 <elliott> maybe one other thing ("tabs are in their own process")
06:26:11 <pikhq> elliott: And the magic word Google.
06:26:13 <calamari> the thing that stuck out to me was it was windows-only for a long time
06:26:28 <elliott> calamari: long = like a year
06:26:46 <elliott> Standard Internet Time, abbreviation TIS.
06:27:01 <elliott> It's currently night-to-early-morning-ish TIS.
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06:27:18 <elliott> "2 September 2008" first release
06:27:22 <elliott> "4 June 2009" first preview for OS X/Linux
06:27:35 <pikhq> Gregor: Hmm. Perhaps I should explain why I don't let this go. It's very simple. I'm autistic. Things that are technically WRONG annoy me *much* more than this annoys you. Simple, no?
06:27:50 <elliott> calamari: September, October, November, December, January, February, March, April, May, June
06:28:05 <elliott> so basically they had a baby and it was unix support.
06:28:07 <Gregor> pikhq: Are you hassling me because I'm black?
06:28:07 <pikhq> And now, I get mauled.
06:28:15 <elliott> pikhq: Doesn't mean you have to vocalise your annoyance.
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06:28:22 <Gregor> pikhq: THAT WAS AN ANALOGY BTW
06:28:45 <pikhq> elliott: But that and I and it and MAKE IT STOP ITS WRONG AND ITS STUPID AND IT HURTS
06:28:49 <elliott> pikhq: Also, are you *sure* that's consistent, considering you're not exactly the most standards-obsessed person ever?
06:28:52 <elliott> You used GNU C extensions.
06:29:02 <pikhq> elliott: It's very firmly not consistent.
06:29:18 <pikhq> elliott: It's just nails on a chalkboard times 10 billion.
06:29:24 <pikhq> elliott: For no very good reason.
06:29:35 <elliott> Speaking as someone who was diagnosed as and used to believe I had Asperger's syndrome, my brain managed to subconsciously turn it into a very useful excuse for just about anything.
06:29:36 <pikhq> elliott: I wish everyone would bow to my will now.
06:30:22 <catseye> I have this image of HTML5 as a crazy juicy pig language and I don't want to ruin the fantasy by actually learning it.
06:30:47 <elliott> catseye: there's pretty much nothing to learn
06:30:51 <elliott> catseye: first, start with HTML 4
06:30:59 <elliott> catseye: then, add a bunch of tags that are useful because everyone just made their own of them anyway.
06:31:09 <pikhq> And then take away all the things that nobody realises are there.
06:31:22 <elliott> catseye: then, use this as an opportunity to put a very-formal-English parser (states and all) for all HTML and XHTML, complaint or not, into the spec.
06:31:36 <elliott> catseye: Then, pressurise browser makers to adopt this parser, and suddenly compatibility issues go away.
06:31:41 <elliott> IIRC even *Microsoft* are going to use it.
06:31:46 <pikhq> elliott: It fails on quite a lot of compliant HTML 4, actually.
06:31:54 <elliott> pikhq: it fails on no byte string
06:32:04 <pikhq> elliott: However, nobody uses what it fails on.
06:32:21 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, it results in a *dramatically different interpretation*.
06:32:31 <catseye> Every. Time. You. Install. A. New. Package. With. Cygwin. It. Rolls. Forward. The. Versions. Of. All. Packages. That. You. Have. Rolled. Back. ANNOYING
06:32:40 <coppro> elliott: I'm not sure if it was you
06:32:42 <elliott> catseye: i once tried to write a package manager for cygwin
06:32:48 <coppro> /someone/ pinged me, and you are usually the one who does
06:32:58 <elliott> catseye: http://diveintohtml5.org/ HOW CAN YOU RESIST MARK PILGRIM
06:33:03 <elliott> catseye will now go into a conflicting-goals loop
06:33:41 <pikhq> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"><html/<title/No joking./ This is totally <b/valid/ HTML. <p/ Honest. It's actually valid./
06:34:16 <elliott> pikhq: pretty sure html 5 parser handles that.
06:34:32 <elliott> pikhq: roconnor uses that :)
06:34:41 <coppro> might have been Gregor for all I know
06:34:47 <elliott> pikhq: http://r6.ca/HtmlAsSgml.html
06:34:52 <elliott> coppro: Or someone NOT TALKING AT ALL!
06:34:55 <elliott> coppro: have you played WebSplat?
06:34:56 <pikhq> elliott: I am unaware of any web browsers outside of lynx that handle it.
06:35:00 <elliott> pikhq: http://r6.ca/HtmlAsSgml.html :D
06:35:08 <elliott> pikhq: he converts it before publication though
06:35:17 <elliott> pikhq: but he does -- or at least did -- shit like having "x_0_" be "x<sub>0</sub>"
06:35:22 <Gregor> I think I said "coppro: HI POOPPY"
06:35:26 <Gregor> (Note: I actually didn't)
06:37:12 <elliott> "While images are at the top of my list of desired medium types in a WWW browser, I don’t think we should add idiosyncratic hooks for media one at a time. Whatever happened to the enthusiasm for using the MIME typing mechanism?"
06:37:21 <elliott> helloooooooooooo <embed> <object>
06:37:28 <elliott> (ok html 5 does it too but by now it's pretty much inevitable)
06:38:08 <elliott> pikhq: did you know: old html had mathematical typesetting?
06:38:15 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/maths.html
06:38:21 <elliott> Example - the integral from a to b of f(x) over 1+x
06:38:21 <elliott> <MATH>∫_a_^b^{f(x)<over>1+x} dx</MATH>
06:38:47 <catseye> new game: every web page is an MS-DOS .EXE that draws the pages and makes the musics of the page on your speaker
06:38:56 <elliott> pikhq: note: that's HTML 3
06:38:59 <elliott> pikhq: no relation to HTML 3.2
06:39:22 <elliott> pikhq: HTML 3 was Dave Raggett's zomg-i-made-it-awesome spec, and outside of Arena (Amaya's predecessor), it was never implemented
06:39:53 <elliott> catseye: would you like a giant spider 49579579348578925894789234 times, -1.3 times, i times, Bark! times, or SUPREME FLUSHING times bigger than you?
06:39:59 <pikhq> elliott: Someone should implement a platonic ideal HTML implementation.
06:40:02 <elliott> catseye: You can also have one a different number of times bigger than you, if you want.
06:40:19 <pikhq> elliott: If it has a full SGML DTD, it renders according to that. Otherwise, it uses the HTML 5 parser.
06:40:21 <elliott> catseye: (And some of them may not be numbers, like some of the times I have in my message!)
06:40:28 <pikhq> elliott: That would be awesome but pretty hard to do.
06:40:35 <coppro> elliott: yes. yes I have
06:40:35 <elliott> Your MOM would be pretty hard to do.
06:40:55 <pikhq> And it'd get crazier still with CSS...
06:41:26 <coppro> elliott: no; just I've played websplat
06:41:36 <elliott> coppro: http://havenworks.com/
06:41:40 <elliott> coppro: It is WebSplat's final boss.
06:41:49 <elliott> pikhq: just implement CSS by translating to XSLT >:D
06:41:54 <elliott> coppro: We have been playing it for days.
06:42:00 <elliott> coppro: Top score is 800something by Gregor's inhuman friend.
06:42:06 <elliott> coppro: Top score by actual people is 500/600something.
06:42:08 <catseye> elliott: that was hilarious
06:42:32 <elliott> catseye: I suppose it is. Some people might not find it hilarious, though. But maybe they might find something else hilarious.
06:42:45 <coppro> websplat hsa scores now
06:42:46 <elliott> catseye: Do you think Enhanced CWEB should support a big spider three times as big as you?
06:42:51 <elliott> coppro: Yes... yes it does. And enemies.
06:43:01 <elliott> coppro: The goal is to collect all the images.
06:43:10 <elliott> caches do weird shit to websplat.
06:43:12 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, and no, it's not because you're black, but because. Uh. YOUR MOTHER IS FEMALE.
06:43:19 <elliott> pikhq: Dude... necroreply.
06:43:30 <pikhq> elliott: I'm calling it a non sequitur at this point.
06:44:01 <elliott> catseye: I have added it in Enhanced CWEB so that if you type *x to dereference a pointer it shows it as an x in a big star. Do you think of any other displayings I could add to Enhanced CWEB?
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06:47:28 <Gregor> pikhq: THERE, IT'S ALL HTML NOW
06:47:31 <Gregor> pikhq: GO AWAAAAAAAAAY
06:47:36 <pikhq> Gregor: VICTORY IS MINE
06:48:19 <pikhq> Gregor: THOUGH I DIDN'T KNOW HTML 5 HAD SELF-CLOSING TAGS
06:48:31 <elliott> pikhq: XHTML 5 DOES BUT ONLY WHEN SERVED AS XML
06:48:37 <Gregor> According to the validator it does. And I like them anyway.
06:49:09 <Gregor> Also, Unicorn requires some weird Apache Java libraries I don't feel like finding :P
06:49:36 <pikhq> It most certainly does have them.
06:49:36 <elliott> Gregor: "Themes Inexplicably Stuck iun my Head"
06:50:06 <Gregor> elliott: ... wow. That has presumably been there for years.
06:50:14 <elliott> Gregor: That's what she said.
06:50:18 <pikhq> Gregor: According to the working draft it has self-closing tags. Wonderful.
06:50:25 <elliott> Gregor: you probably want "My" too
06:50:40 <catseye> OK, fixed my news page. Have vague plans to fix... other pages by shotgun-blasting .htaccess files into every directory.
06:51:02 <catseye> First, need to see what this does to IE.
06:51:11 <pikhq> HTML 5 appears to have saner syntax than HTML 4 *and* XHTML. Awesome.
06:51:35 <Gregor> OPTIONAL self-closing tags != sane.
06:52:21 <catseye> MIME Type: application/xhtml xml
06:52:23 <elliott> catseye: err, .htaccess is recursive i think
06:52:37 <elliott> catseye: IE doesn't handle it at all
06:52:40 <elliott> you CAN condition on it in .htaccess
06:52:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Before HTML 5, HTML used a completely different syntax from what every implementation used.
06:52:53 <Gregor> Example, to send your password file to the server, where 'password' is the name of the form-field to which /etc/passwd will
06:52:54 <Gregor> curl -F password=@/etc/passwd www.mypasswords.com
06:54:55 <elliott> curl -F password=@/etc/shadow www.ministryoffinanceofficial.ng
06:54:57 <catseye> elliott: You're right, .htaccess is recursive!
06:55:11 <catseye> That means... there are a handful of non-XHTML pages that are broken now
06:55:40 <catseye> First I need to decide if I am OK with freaking out all IE browsers before 9
06:55:52 <elliott> catseye: You can fix it in the .htaccess with a browser condition.
06:55:55 <elliott> catseye: But, you know what?
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06:56:04 <elliott> catseye: You have a command to regenerate your entire site, right?
06:56:21 <elliott> catseye: Gimme your toolchain and I'll make it spit out HTML 5 instead :P
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06:56:43 <catseye> TURKEY BOMB is ok but plankalkuel needs some loving
06:57:43 <elliott> catseye: is it too TOP SECRET
06:59:11 <catseye> yes and yes but more I meant, No, I like serving XHTML.
06:59:44 <catseye> it's like the WEIRDO html now (aside from HTML 3, of course)
07:00:02 <elliott> catseye: but i can do better
07:00:05 <elliott> catseye: i can make it serve XHTML 5.
07:00:13 <elliott> note: Sam Ruby is the only other person in the world to use XHTML 5
07:01:10 <pikhq> elliott: Worth it though.
07:01:40 <pikhq> AND I SHOULD SLEEP SOON
07:02:11 <elliott> pikhq: I SHOULD TOO IT'S 7 AM
07:02:15 <elliott> OMG I LOVE THIS SLEEP SCHEDULE SO MUCH
07:02:33 <elliott> and then just when you think it's over
07:03:24 <elliott> pikhq: i swear, it's awesome
07:03:29 <elliott> i'm totally ready for sleep now, right?
07:03:52 <elliott> pikhq: and you get a whole sixteen hours awake!
07:04:02 <elliott> and then eight hours of sleep.
07:04:09 <elliott> you skip the shitty morning crap.
07:05:08 <fizzie> It's six hours between 7am and 3pm; how do you cram eight hours of sleep in there?
07:05:28 <fizzie> Well, it's six metric hours, anyway.
07:05:37 <catseye> I wonder if I can make the XHTML goodness conditional on !IE in the .htaccess somehow
07:06:02 <catseye> I wonder if pikhq will object to me being selectively conformant like that
07:06:03 <elliott> catseye: like i told you three fucking times
07:07:00 <elliott> catseye: what's your rule to add the header?
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07:07:46 <catseye> elliott: AddType application/xhtml+xml .html
07:07:56 <elliott> catseye: prepare for the crazy
07:10:41 <Gregor> I want a validator that validates a file as both HTML5 (draft) and XHTML whatever (modulo the incorrect doctype declaration)
07:10:57 <Gregor> Basically, I want it to bitch when I don't close tags, even when that's considered OK since HTML is so awful.
07:11:04 <elliott> RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} !MSIE
07:11:04 <elliott> RewriteRule ^.*\.html$ $0 [L,T=application/xhtml+xml]
07:11:04 <fizzie> Gregor: Maybe a pony to go with it, too?
07:11:09 <elliott> catseye: Replace your existing rule with it.
07:11:18 <Gregor> fizzie: Naw, but my kitty could use a friend.
07:11:42 <elliott> catseye: But it should work!
07:11:53 <catseye> elliott: where did the simple go?
07:12:00 <elliott> catseye: it's three lines dammit!
07:12:17 <elliott> catseye: and it sets the right header on .html-ending URLs for everything that isn't IE
07:12:46 <elliott> Gregor: IE is very experienced at parsing tag soup :P
07:12:59 <elliott> for instance, it's done it all catseye.tc's existence
07:13:05 <Gregor> elliott: IE9 in non-standards-compliance mode is a horrible pile of garbage.
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07:13:16 <elliott> Gregor: IE is a horrible pile of garbage.
07:13:18 <fizzie> I've seen that done with application/xhtml+xml as the default, and then RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} MSIE, RewriteCond %{REQUEST_URI} \.html$, RewriteRule .* - [T=text/html] instead, but that's pretty close.
07:13:19 <Gregor> elliott: Whereas IE9 in standards-compliant mode is an almost-tolerable browser.
07:13:29 <elliott> fizzie: Mine's totally better.
07:13:31 <catseye> Gregor: I'm gonna try it out! Next time I reboot tho
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07:13:34 <Gregor> elliott: Have you used IE9 beta? It's actually approaching where the other browsers in ~05
07:13:35 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, does - work?
07:13:50 <fizzie> elliott: It would be even better with - instead of $0, right.
07:13:53 <elliott> RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} !MSIE
07:13:53 <elliott> RewriteRule \.html$ - [L,T=application/xhtml+xml]
07:13:57 <fizzie> "A dash indicates that no substitution should be performed (the existing path is passed through untouched). This is used when a flag (see below) needs to be applied without changing the path."
07:14:04 <elliott> catseye: ^ That should work perfectly.
07:14:14 <elliott> catseye: You don't actually need the L, in there but *eh*.
07:15:38 <elliott> it is *possible* that your host doesn't have mod_rewrite
07:16:27 <catseye> oh! but it seems to work now
07:16:59 <catseye> viewable in IE, xmltastic in FF
07:17:09 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ curl -sI catseye.tc | grep Content-Type
07:17:09 <elliott> Content-Type: application/xhtml+xml
07:17:09 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ curl -A MSIE -sI catseye.tc | grep Content-Type
07:17:26 <catseye> still don't know to what extent this is pikhq-approved
07:17:57 <elliott> catseye: uh, as much as he approves of sending to IE at all
07:18:38 <catseye> i am only being noncompliant to something that is itself staggeringly noncompliant
07:19:46 * Gregor has a sudden strong urge to make all his pages detect if the browser is IE, and if so do setInterval(function(){for(var i=0;i<100000;i++);},0)
07:21:22 * catseye has a sudden strong urge to invent vixie cron
07:21:34 <elliott> Gregor: function f(){for(;;){alert("x");setTimeout(f,0);}}
07:21:40 <elliott> wait the alert probably fixes it
07:21:58 <Gregor> elliott: No, you want it to just be slow and awful, so they blame the browser rather than you.
07:22:05 <elliott> Gregor: function f(){for(;;){for(i=0;i<1000)setTimeout(f,0)}}
07:22:17 <elliott> Gregor: they never blame the browser :P
07:29:26 <catseye> Gregor: they blame you personally
07:29:55 <catseye> i suppose you would make that justified
07:30:29 <elliott> javascript:(function(){function f(){for(;;){for(i=0;i<1000)setTimeout(f,0)}};f()})()
07:31:31 <Gregor> elliott: Value of a walk button on a scale from 0 to 10
07:31:58 <elliott> Gregor: ever played xjump?
07:32:02 <elliott> it's like the slippiness you have on crack
07:39:24 <Gregor> THE DOOR CAN SEE INTO YOUR MIND
07:39:27 <Gregor> THE DOOR CAN SEE INTO YOUR SOUL
07:43:52 <Gregor> /nick xX[GenericEmoKid]Xx
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08:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> 14:27:34 <quintopia> he died 14:27:38 <quintopia> he doesn't want to admit ← well, you caught me out there.
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08:56:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Sodding graphics card, breaking whenever I try to run pretty things.
09:03:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, quintopia meant died in WebSplat!, not real life.
09:04:16 <Phantom_Hoover> In that case, I actually did stop at 600 (not voluntarily, though).
09:09:14 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: I think you should install some software.
09:09:29 <catseye> I have no preference as to what software that may be.
09:10:08 <catseye> Oh, you've been dealing with something horrible haven't you. Don't remember the name right now.
09:10:27 <catseye> About nine letters long is all I can recall
09:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, all of the APT esolang packages _suck_, so I won't be going down that road.
09:14:40 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:~$ apt-cache search . | head -n `perl -e 'print int(rand(28848))+1'` | tail -n 1
09:14:40 <fizzie> libglobus-gsi-openssl-error-dev - Globus Toolkit - Globus OpenSSL Error Handling Development Files
09:15:03 <fizzie> Rerun it if necessary; tailor 28848 to be "apt-cache search . | wc -l" if necessary.
09:15:56 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:~$ apt-cache search . | perl -e '@a = <>; print $a[int(rand(@a))];'
09:15:56 <fizzie> language-support-fonts-my - Additional fonts metapackage for Burmese
09:16:01 <fizzie> That's another good choice.
09:16:11 <fizzie> (With an improved random-picker.)
09:20:09 <catseye> Install them both, then complain to us when your Global OpenSSL error messages won't display in Burmese.
09:21:36 <fizzie> Alternatively, install the package with the longest name. In my case that would be libmaypole-plugin-authentication-usersessioncookie-perl.
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09:52:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, on what page?
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16:04:10 <cpressey> what's a good rss feed aggregator/subscription service and/or how to i unbork firefox (the latter)
16:05:56 <ais523_> cpressey: I use Akregator, although it's probably Linux-specific
16:06:11 <ais523_> it's nothing particularly special, just sits in the background out of your way and reads RSS feeds
16:06:34 <ais523_> it's a little annoying in how it handles links, though (left-click opens it in an embedded browser, middle-click opens in your main browser which is normally what I want)
16:07:43 <cpressey> ais523_: I think I got Live Bookmarks working in FF again (I think), so I am probably ok, but thanks
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16:46:31 <elliott> 03:24:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> I'll descend a single column, rather than zigzagging/
16:47:28 <ais523> hmm, for some reason I get nickpinged by everything ais523_ says
16:47:41 <ais523> nickpinging based on /nick/ seems a little ridiculous
16:49:20 <ais523> elliott: I have a highlight for "ais523" no matter what my current nick
16:49:24 <ais523> but it's still ridiculous
16:49:47 <elliott> 46.4 MiB of 6.1 GiB (0.73%)
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17:03:41 <ais523> elliott: what timeconsuming task are you doing?
17:04:08 <elliott> ais523: getting lots of little bits of data from various nodes of the internet
17:04:37 <elliott> ais523: and verifying them, thus replicating a file on my hard drive without the use of a centralised server to obtain it
17:05:14 <elliott> ais523: apparently it's only 16 hours to go though! yaaaay
17:08:12 <cpressey> elliott: so what exactly did you steal again? a reflective term rewriting language where the meaning of a term is defined solely by the context at the point at which it is rewritten? plus a lot of misguided thoughts for how this could be a "practical" language despite not really knowing how to program in it?
17:08:32 <elliott> cpressey: actually, just "a term rewriting language"
17:08:44 <elliott> which is so totally your idea and dear god i have never seen a glass that close to spilling NOT spill
17:09:04 <elliott> usually when it gets horizontal you enact your disaster recovery plan...
17:09:09 <elliott> maybe my fingers as slippery as sgeo's
17:09:34 <cpressey> People are all about the "Turing this" and the "Church that" but... but... mad props to Post, people, POST!
17:10:19 <elliott> cpressey: Church-Turing-Post thesis, man!
17:11:28 <elliott> cpressey: I've always had something for rewriting languages, I guess.
17:11:55 <elliott> Thue, Redivider (is only sort of rewriting, but still), a lot of my liking of Joy is due to its similarity to a rewriting system, Q and Pure are nice...
17:11:55 <ais523> elliott: I've had glasses like that not spill due to being empty
17:12:11 <elliott> ais523: yes, this one was... not quite empty.
17:12:28 <elliott> ais523: i was already thinking about whether getting the orange juice of the keyboard was feasible or whether i should just pick a new one off the stack
17:12:35 <elliott> (I totally have a mental stack of keyboards!)
17:12:53 <elliott> Liquids near computers: Genius!
17:14:09 <elliott> it occurs to me that i could probably obtain this file faster via snailmail...
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17:17:34 <cpressey> i just clicked somewhere on my desktop and apparently closed two windows and a tab simultaneously
17:18:00 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/G3SQS.png
17:18:05 <elliott> cpressey: it's Ubuntu Usability
17:18:14 <elliott> cpressey: it's yet another feature!
17:18:26 <elliott> fun fact: all the new features in windows 7 are just bugs introduced into vista during development
17:18:33 <elliott> that task bar wouldn't display the fucking window titles!
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17:19:47 <ais523> elliott: actually, it's a toggle to display the titles
17:19:55 <cpressey> No, I am actually on Ubuntu right now.
17:20:00 <ais523> win7 became much more bearable for me when I found out how to switch the taskbar back to XP-like
17:20:02 <elliott> ais523: letting facts get in the way of a joke?
17:20:10 <elliott> wait, you can't do that via the UI
17:20:17 <ais523> right-click the taskbar, IIRC
17:20:31 <ais523> and it's a couple of dialogs down from there
17:20:43 <ais523> I would check, but that would require actually booting up Windows
17:21:01 <elliott> ais523: i guess nobody had figured it out when i was trying 7 :)
17:21:16 <elliott> ais523: http://www.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/sshot67.png
17:21:20 <elliott> ais523: guess the windows version!
17:21:25 <elliott> oh wait, you don't get links
17:21:37 <ais523> failing that, Windows 2!
17:21:51 <ais523> hmm, perhaps 7 based on context
17:22:21 <elliott> ais523: <img src="http://www.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/sshot67.png" alt="A picture of a Windows Classic styled taskbar, with 'Pictures', 'win7', 'Screen Resolution' and a cut off item starting 'Ed'. The Windows logo on the Start button is that of Vista onwards, without the surrounding orb.">
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17:22:51 <ais523> elliott: so probably 7 then
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17:23:00 <elliott> ais523: you get an unfairly helpful description prize!
17:23:05 <ais523> also, that's the most ingenious (and correct!) use of alt text I've seen
17:23:13 <ais523> posting it to IRC for someone who refuses to view images...
17:23:49 <ais523> I was thinking that it would be nice if there was a bot that looked up the alt text of images, but that would be unreasonably complex
17:24:12 <ais523> first it would have to use a search engine to find sites that embedded the image, then it would need to look up their alt texts, then it would need to decide which to show...
17:24:19 <ais523> *pages that embedded the image
17:24:37 <elliott> ais523: searching like that doesn't work for images, as far as i can tell
17:24:39 <elliott> at least, it never has for me
17:24:45 <elliott> ais523: pretty sure searches are done on a plaintext version
17:24:54 <elliott> which probably uses the alt text of images
17:26:14 <elliott> ais523: any opinions on the recent WikiLeaks happenings?
17:26:29 <elliott> it seems the media is as good as ever at managing to distract from revelations they don't particularly like
17:26:53 <ais523> elliott: hmm... a Google search for link:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/INTERCAL_Circuitous_Diagram.svg/220px-INTERCAL_Circuitous_Diagram.svg.png fails
17:27:05 <ais523> more interesting is what happens in a Google Images search for that (with the link:)
17:27:20 <ais523> it drops the /entire search query/ because it doesn't make sense for that sort of query, yet /returns results anyway/
17:27:28 <ais523> so I think it returns the "first image on Google", or whatever
17:27:53 <elliott> i've always wanted to search google for *
17:28:17 <elliott> ais523: that doesn't work for me
17:28:19 <elliott> Your search - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41 ... - did not match any documents.
17:28:37 <ais523> elliott: hmm, try turning JavaScript off and forbidding cookies (which is my setup for accessing Google)?
17:28:43 <ais523> the cookies probably don't matter, come to think of it
17:28:57 <elliott> ais523: why not just use scroogle, at that point?
17:29:41 <elliott> i just searched for the url
17:29:45 <ais523> yes, for link: followed by the URL
17:29:56 <elliott> ais523: does the same for google.com
17:30:00 <ais523> elliott: because I trust the owners of scroogle even less than I trust Google
17:30:02 <elliott> ais523: defenselink.mil, discuss
17:30:09 <elliott> ais523: also, pretty good point
17:30:12 <ais523> yep, it's defenselink.mil for me too
17:30:21 <ais523> hmm, I don't think I actually /distrust/ Google
17:30:23 <fizzie> Looks surprisingly consistent.
17:30:28 <ais523> they just don't act the way I want them to
17:30:29 <elliott> In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 35 already displayed.
17:30:29 <elliott> If you like, you can repeat the search with the omitted results included.
17:30:40 <ais523> and blocking cookies, etc., makes it act more like the way I want them to
17:30:41 <elliott> the military propaganda is ENDLESS lawl
17:30:59 <elliott> every single result is from defenselink.mil
17:30:59 <ais523> (in particular, they keep trying to customize things to me when I don't want them to)
17:31:19 <ais523> elliott: you remember the "bush hid the facts" thing? you could probably submit that to the same sort of conspiracy site
17:31:38 <elliott> ais523: I don't think conspiracy sites were the prime things for that... more "stupid shit" sites
17:32:23 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: hmm... a Google search for link:[...] <-- what a wtf url it had
17:32:45 <Vorpal> (cut out to not prevent you from seeing what I just said)
17:32:48 <ais523> Vorpal: it's the URL of the thumbnail
17:32:59 <ais523> the URL of the image itself is more sensible
17:33:07 <ais523> but the image itself isn't shown on the page
17:35:17 <ais523> and really, the URL is pretty sensible for a PNG thumnail of an SVG image
17:38:42 <elliott> Thum nail, the nail of thums.
17:50:02 <cpressey> scroogle collects your search terms to feed to their army of demon-hedgehogs
17:57:24 <elliott> it collects your army of demon-hedgehogs to feed to their search terms
17:57:43 <elliott> cpressey: SO NETBSD [mauled by owls and/or bears]
17:58:04 <elliott> no two lines can annoy two people more.
17:58:10 <elliott> i have mastered the internet
17:58:21 * elliott wouldn't be surprised if ais523 has an ignore on *feather*
18:03:51 <cpressey> elliott: Gonna make it work, coach! Gonna give 110%! Woof woof woof
18:04:16 <elliott> cpressey: I can see AROS' FURRY INFLUENCE is rubbing off on you.
18:08:13 <cpressey> elliott: http://www.rdwarf.com/users/kioh/haxorec54KB.jpg
18:10:35 <cpressey> Anyway, "woof woof woof" was more an attempt to make the sounds a football player makes to psych himself up.
18:10:37 <Gregor> elliott, pikhq_: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11573666
18:11:18 <elliott> i... had a favourite webcomic, i have forgotten it
18:11:29 <elliott> Gregor: wait, why did you just ping me?
18:11:43 <Gregor> To bother a FONTophile :P
18:12:11 <Gregor> Yes, forwarding a link somebody sent me is an enormous effort.
18:13:19 <elliott> Gregor: unlike you, i know that the bbc tends to report on just about any paper which can be turned into a snazzy headline. also, "according to scientists". also, i totally believe that a single, random paper has shot down centuries of practice and research, yes, I am broken :P
18:13:43 <elliott> anyway i don't care that much about non-fiction
18:13:50 <elliott> and for fiction obviously reading comfort takes precedence over remembering things
18:14:05 <elliott> <elliott> anyway i don't care that much about non-fiction <-- typesetting that is
18:15:58 <elliott> ais523: have you played WebSplat yet?
18:16:05 <elliott> note: playing websplat not optional
18:16:30 <Gregor> My cat always chooses the exact moment I start eating to jump into my lap.
18:17:03 <elliott> Gregor: did you ever move the favicon goombas server-side?
18:17:58 <elliott> Gregor: do I need to flush my cache?
18:19:48 <Gregor> Two images per second ain't bad.
18:19:57 <elliott> Gregor: Is time 1/2 seconds?
18:20:01 <Gregor> You must think seconds are REALLY FAST :P
18:20:09 <elliott> Gregor: I... yeah, pretty much.
18:20:18 <elliott> Gregor: Hey, that means an estimated playthrough would be like...
18:20:42 <Gregor> This is like how people play SMW and say "Ack I only have 10 seconds left!" when they have WELL under 10 seconds.'
18:21:12 <elliott> Gregor: Actually using your friend's esimate a playthrough *would* take about 50 minutes.
18:21:30 <elliott> But more like 30 minutes with the 500 in 1000 something one you had.
18:21:45 <elliott> 1800 would probably give a better estimate.
18:21:48 <elliott> Gregor: tl;dr this is hard
18:23:29 <elliott> Gregor: lawl I died on top of a dog.
18:27:28 <elliott> I hate it when they're ont he thin blue column X_
18:27:59 <Gregor> Collision detection is a fickle mistress :P
18:30:24 <elliott> Gregor: I love how beyond the far-right column there's a few utterly inexplicable invisible platforms.
18:30:42 <elliott> Gregor: Also, how favicon goombas just walk off the right edge of the page and fall to the bottom for no good reason at all.
18:31:08 <Gregor> Favicon goombas don't platform detect, they wander off platforms unless a wall blocks them.
18:31:11 <elliott> Gregor: GIVE US A LOOK FUNCTION :P
18:34:44 <elliott> Gregor: FYI, the last column is the easiest to start with by far.
18:34:49 <elliott> 219@344 and now I'll ascend back up.
18:35:03 <elliott> Admittedly, you have to cross back over.
18:37:42 <elliott> Gregor: lawl, this is hard
18:45:05 <elliott> Gregor: I have a strategy idea.
18:45:26 <elliott> Gregor: Go in columns, but only for a certain length; make sure you finish all the columns up to a certain length, and then start from the beginning again.
18:45:32 <elliott> This avoids the point of no return.
18:47:23 <cpressey> elliott: so that Rewrite Crap For IE magic you provided last night (thanks btw) -- how do I turn it *off* for a particular directory, i.e. override it in an .htaccess file local to that directory?
18:47:38 <elliott> cpressey: can you paste your current file for me and i'll modify it accordingly? thx
18:47:55 <elliott> cpressey: btw i ought to get compensation for this, mod_rewrite is one of the scariest things in the universe
18:48:08 <elliott> olsner used it to turn a browser into a something interpreter
18:48:10 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/.htaccess heh no what?
18:48:20 <elliott> cpressey: that probably won't load
18:48:24 <elliott> generally .htaccess access is blocked
18:48:33 <elliott> cpressey: lol your 404 is invalid xml
18:48:46 <elliott> cpressey: you can set your own 404 if you want
18:48:48 <olsner> elliott: not the browser, the web server, but yeah
18:48:56 <elliott> olsner: well, the browser has to go there repeatedly
18:49:02 <elliott> so it's the browser using the server, really
18:49:15 <olsner> no, apache does the rewriting in the configuration I used
18:49:27 <elliott> cpressey: ErrorDocument 404 404.html
18:49:38 <elliott> olsner: yes, but it just returns the next evaluation step
18:49:42 <elliott> it's only TC if it's repeatedly evaluated
18:49:44 <elliott> which is what the browser does
18:50:07 <elliott> cpressey: anyway okay i'll just fish out my own .htaccess SHEESH :P
18:50:19 <cpressey> RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} !MSIE
18:50:20 <cpressey> RewriteRule \.html$ - [L,T=application/xhtml+xml]
18:51:03 <elliott> in an .htaccess in the specific directories
18:51:07 <elliott> cpressey: i'd do it in the main one
18:51:16 <elliott> cpressey: which is probably easier to maintain.
18:51:19 <olsner> elliott: no, apache goes through all of it in a loop in mod_rewrite then produces the final URL and sends the output of that URI (forget if it's with one of those moved headers or if apache just sends the contents of the final URL)
18:51:30 <cpressey> yeah i suppose that makes more sense
18:51:34 <elliott> cpressey: i mean obviously it's up to you, but
18:51:43 <elliott> cpressey: it's a bit more involved that way
18:51:49 <elliott> i'll look it up since i have the manual open anyway
18:51:51 <olsner> unfortunately, both browsers and mod_rewrite have a limit on the number of rewrite steps
18:52:01 <elliott> cpressey: the per-directory file solution is more standalone, but the single one is more maintainable
18:52:25 <olsner> and mod_rewrite frees *nothing* that it allocates for a single request so you'll run out of memory quickly
18:54:16 <elliott> RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} !MSIE
18:54:16 <elliott> RewriteCond %{REQUEST_URI} !^directory1
18:54:16 <elliott> RewriteCond %{REQUEST_URI} !^directory2/subdir
18:54:16 <elliott> RewriteRule \.html$ - [L,T=application/xhtml+xml]
18:54:23 <elliott> there are other ways to do it, but this does it all in one file, and all from mod_rewrite
18:54:51 <elliott> ErrorDocument 404 404.html
18:54:53 <elliott> cpressey: and put some valid XHTML in there
18:54:58 <elliott> cpressey: because right now your 404 page is broken
18:55:20 <elliott> cpressey: hmm actually you may want /404.html there
18:56:23 <cpressey> according to scientists, my site is broken!
18:57:13 <olsner> I wonder if there are any suitable redirection methods that (usually) have no recursion guards
18:57:21 <fizzie> Is there a browser limit on the number of consecutive <meta http-equiv="refresh" content="1;url=xxx"> redirections?
18:57:38 <elliott> fizzie: i think you can omit the 1;
18:57:46 <cpressey> But what science solves, science can soon fix! nurr
18:57:48 <fizzie> You can put in 0, but where's the fun in that.
18:57:59 <fizzie> With 1 you can see it run.
18:57:59 <elliott> cpressey: Is it not working?
18:58:11 <elliott> cpressey: You might not want to try and understand mod_rewrite, dude.
18:58:19 <elliott> cpressey: You think it's innocuous, but *no*
18:58:37 <elliott> ``The great thing about mod_rewrite is it gives you all the configurability and flexibility of Sendmail. The downside to mod_rewrite is that it gives you all the configurability and flexibility of Sendmail.''
18:58:52 <cpressey> elliott: How did a beautiful theory like rewriting birth monstrosities like XSLT and mod_rewrite, anyway?
18:59:07 <elliott> cpressey: I... cannot parse that sentence.
18:59:33 <cpressey> How did a theory as beautiful as that which we call rewriting, birth...
18:59:39 <olsner> if it's supposed to be used for configuration, it's usually a bad sign if it is turing complete (or would be turing complete were it not for e.g. recursion limits)
19:00:10 <elliott> cpressey: Because of Post's law.
19:00:15 <elliott> (Note: I just made that up.)
19:00:17 <fizzie> zpaste runs on mod_rewrite: http://p.zem.fi/rewrites -- that's nothing very hairy yet, of course.
19:00:33 <elliott> fizzie: Does zpaste have any user-visible infrastructure yet? :P
19:00:48 <elliott> Or are you KEEPING ALL THE FUN FROM US
19:00:53 <fizzie> Well, there's the command-line client.
19:01:04 <elliott> fizzie: Which is private? :P
19:01:14 <Gregor> elliott: I like your new strategy though
19:01:15 <elliott> Gregor: What do you think about my new strategy?
19:01:34 <elliott> Gregor: I suggest the first "block" to do is the one where all the columns are filled.
19:01:40 <elliott> After that it gets a bit more mrfy, if you know what I mean.
19:01:40 <fizzie> elliott: No, it's all included in the github place. I was intending to make a tiny little change -- I can't quite recall what it was right now -- to make it trivial to do a web-form for posting new pastes.
19:01:45 <elliott> cpressey: Maybe slightly less than that.
19:02:05 <fizzie> I like how the first google-hit on zpaste is "The Ultimate Cam Assembly Lubricant #7240".
19:02:21 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-2010-10-25-soScrewed.png , immediately followed by http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-2010-10-25-2-soDead.png
19:02:37 <elliott> Gregor: I think that I will like these images once they load.
19:02:51 <elliott> Gregor: Your server is wowslow.
19:03:03 <elliott> Gregor: That is not so screwed.
19:03:24 <Gregor> I needed to take them both out to get to the images below safely :p
19:03:32 <elliott> Gregor: If you had managed that jump you could have got to the far left and dude we're playing on different pages.
19:03:41 <elliott> That last column is super-wide for me.
19:04:00 <Gregor> Getting to the far left wouldn't have helped, I needed the images below the enemies :P
19:04:05 <elliott> Gregor: All our scores are irrelevant relative to each other's X_X
19:04:19 <Gregor> It's still roughly equal difficulty I'm sure :P
19:04:41 <Gregor> How ridiculously wide is your screen...?
19:05:06 <elliott> Gregor: *But* I do have the actual non-free fonts the page uses.
19:05:23 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, I'm playing with DejaVu Serif and Arial.
19:05:26 <Gregor> Soyeah, mine is wider :P
19:05:28 <elliott> Gregor: DejaVu Serif because it's my default font.
19:05:34 <elliott> Gregor: Arial because the page sets Arial.
19:05:42 <elliott> Set up your Chrome accordingly :P
19:05:44 <Gregor> Yeah, I doubt I have Arial.
19:05:50 <elliott> Gregor: Also: You have a smaller font size than me.
19:06:00 <elliott> ...either that or your antialiasing is just that much.
19:06:05 <Gregor> Ugh, probably has to do with DPI X_X
19:06:08 <elliott> Yeah no it's the same size.
19:06:30 <elliott> Gregor: I suggest setting up Chrome to have DejaVu Sans as default serif and then installing the Microsoft core fonts for FAIRNESS :P
19:06:37 <elliott> I have my DPI set to 96 like everyone else in the universe.
19:06:47 <Gregor> Lesse your screenshot.
19:08:17 <olsner> cpressey: I can't imagine either of mod_rewrite or xslt actually coming from the theory of string rewriting, both just seem like horrible accidents to me
19:08:28 <cpressey> elliott: just fyi: it needs to be RewriteCond %{REQUEST_URI} !^/directory1 with the slash
19:09:12 <cpressey> and my CSS is a little wack with XHTML, but nothing too bad.
19:09:31 <elliott> Gregor: http://i.imgur.com/1Oske.png
19:10:26 <Gregor> elliott: Thank you for choosing a screenshot that does little to prove your very point :P
19:10:50 <elliott> cpressey: "Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request." might wanna create that file :P
19:11:01 <olsner> hmm, I feel vaguely inspired by that screenshot
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19:11:58 <olsner> maybe something like a UserJS that transforms any site into a similar monstrosity
19:12:23 <Gregor> olsner: You'd need to generate a lot of lorem ipsum for most sites.
19:13:10 <cpressey> Gregor: olsner: http://www.lorizzle.nl/?feed=1
19:13:40 <cpressey> (reload to see my gnarly new 404 page)
19:14:37 <olsner> Gregor: or maybe you could inline linked pages to provide contents
19:14:48 <olsner> it is quite high density this thing
19:15:20 <elliott> Gregor: http://imgur.com/HQ05D.png
19:16:13 <cpressey> elliott: heyyyyyyy I can use frickin mod_rewrite on my site!
19:16:25 <cpressey> the potential of awesome power just dawned on me!
19:16:42 <elliott> cpressey: IF YOU TURN ON CONTENT NEGOTIATION YOU CAN DROP THE .HTML FROM THE END OF PAGES ISN'T THAT SO *2.0*
19:17:39 <elliott> Gregor: Oh shit I left all my super-private searches in those screenshots *sob*
19:17:55 <olsner> python's yield: sufficiently similar to continuations you get annoyed that they aren't more similar
19:18:19 <Gregor> elliott: I honestly don't understand how having a slightly different font would change the /width/ of that column, that should be a rather immutable rule of flow ... ohhh unless some title forced it wider ...
19:18:32 <elliott> Gregor: The header at the top is superwide.
19:18:58 <Gregor> elliott: For me, with Arial, it's still the same width.
19:19:18 <elliott> olsner: I could totally reference Encyclopedia Dramatica here, but it stands for "in this topic" and it's a stupid 4chan thing that got spread to /prog/ which is where I picked it up and then everywhere ever and it just means... nothing
19:19:33 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, set default serif font to DejaVu Serif in Chrome.
19:19:47 <Gregor> I don't even know how to do that :P
19:19:50 <olsner> elliott: nothing? ok :)
19:19:50 <elliott> Gregor: Preferences -> Under the Bonnet -> Web Content -> Change font and language settings
19:19:57 <elliott> Gregor: It's Under the Hood for you :P
19:20:03 <elliott> olsner: Well, it means, "here" or "current topic" or...
19:20:05 <Gregor> Wow, that is some awesome i18n.
19:20:10 <elliott> "In this topic" except s/topic/current conversation thread/
19:20:19 <elliott> Gregor: IT IS I orgasmed with glee when I saw it. Uh, or something.
19:20:37 <Gregor> elliott: Size 12 I assume?
19:21:03 <elliott> Fixed-width at 13 but I doubt that changes anything.
19:21:10 <elliott> Gregor: You should set the default sans font to DejaVu Sans, too.
19:21:15 <elliott> Just in case it uses "sans" somewhere.
19:21:20 <olsner> well, continuations can be used to implement coroutines, right? then just continuations should be sufficient
19:21:35 <Gregor> elliott: OK, now it's all DejaVu <Something> 16
19:21:44 <Gregor> Indeed it looks more similar now.
19:21:44 <elliott> Gregor: Monospaced should be 13 :P
19:21:59 <elliott> <elliott> Fixed-width at 13 but I doubt that changes anything.
19:22:11 <Gregor> It does in fact change ... something.
19:22:35 <elliott> Gregor: Now for exact results, use the Ubuntu-patched freetype renderer with their settings :P
19:22:50 <elliott> Gregor: (Or just slight hinting would do it, really :p)
19:22:55 <Gregor> Also set my screen width the same :P
19:23:08 <elliott> Gregor: HavenWorks is resolution-independent!
19:23:12 <elliott> That's also the ONLY thing it is!
19:24:16 <elliott> Gregor: sheesh you haven't even noticed the tabs I inexplicably forgot to close beforehand
19:24:28 <Gregor> I noticed, they were just stupid :P
19:24:33 <elliott> also, I totally do replace all my tabs with new ones in-between screenshots
19:24:36 <elliott> Gregor: Gee, I feel so unloved.
19:24:41 <elliott> Unloved like... something that's...
19:27:31 <Gregor> Would you be fine with the look function if it wasn't smooth?
19:27:34 <Gregor> (Just popped down or up)
19:28:09 <elliott> Gregor: Sure, but it's easy enough to do a gradual scroll.
19:28:14 <elliott> Gregor: Just use scrollTo or whatever it is in a for loop :P
19:28:20 <elliott> Even if it is only down or up.
19:28:22 <elliott> Gregor: Left or right too?
19:28:25 <elliott> Anyway I'm not sure I do want it.
19:28:59 <Gregor> It's NOT easy enough to gradually scroll when that gradual scrolling conflicts with the scrolling based on character location.
19:29:22 <elliott> [[Bees can quickly solve "travelling salesman problem"]]
19:29:24 <cpressey> i want to jump from tab to tab IMPLEMENT THAT
19:29:31 <elliott> Gregor: Just make that depend on a flag and turn it off for the scroll? :p
19:29:40 <elliott> Gregor: But yeah, I don't think it's a good idea.
19:29:50 <elliott> The game mechanics are pretty solid already.
19:30:08 <Gregor> One less thing for me to do :P
19:30:54 -!- sftp has joined.
19:34:19 <zzo38> Another game idea is a sort of computer game where the game board you play on is the periodic table of elements.
19:35:33 <Gregor> Is it Groundhog Day already?
19:36:41 <elliott> Gregor: No, but it is Big Spider Day.
19:37:15 <elliott> I love Groundhog Day lore:
19:37:17 <elliott> "Zoological data suggests that groundhogs have a maximum lifespan of 10 years in captivity or 6 years in the wild.[3] Punxsutawney Phil fans say that there is only one Phil (all the other groundhog weathermen are impostors), and that he has made weather prognostications for over 120 years as of 2010. They say that every summer, Phil is fed a sip of the mysterious Groundhog Punch, which magically lengthens his life for seven years. This is done by
19:37:17 <elliott> Inner Circle members.[4] According to the Groundhog Club, Phil, after making the prediction, speaks to the Club President in "Groundhogese", which only the Inner Circle appear to understand, and then his prediction is translated for the entire world."
19:37:58 <cpressey> Mental note: Punxsutawney: avoid.
19:38:19 <elliott> "Of these 114 predictions on record so far, Punxsutawney Phil has predicted an early spring 14 times (12%). As to his accuracy, according to the StormFax Weather Almanac and records kept since 1887, Phil's predictions have been correct just 39% of the time."
19:38:29 <elliott> His inaccuracy only makes him more magical!
19:38:41 <zzo38> A game can have a stretched geometry in some places, so that going from Barium to Hafnium is a shorter distance if you go around than in a straight line.
19:38:45 <cpressey> Who are you to understand the ways of Phil?
19:45:59 <cpressey> Molybdenum is a Double Molecule Score element.
19:49:33 <cpressey> Cuz I like the name "Molybdenum", mostly
19:50:58 <elliott> Evil window managers trying to snarf your krit!
19:51:19 <zzo38> elliott: What does that mean?
19:51:28 <elliott> But then, what does anything mean?
19:51:39 <fizzie> If he's been doing that for "over 120 years", and they lengthen his life by 7 years every summer (so +6 years to the total), wouldn't he now have something like a 720-year lifespan even with no more Groundhog Punch? That's not bad for a groundhog.
19:52:06 <cpressey> blah i totally need an algebraic data type in my python script.
19:52:29 <zzo38> What kind of algebraic data type?
19:52:42 <elliott> fizzie: But why stop giving it to him?!
19:52:47 <cpressey> data Thing = OneKind String | TheOtherKind String
19:52:51 <elliott> fizzie: It's physiologically and psychologically addictive!
19:53:02 <elliott> His predictions would become less accurate!
19:53:06 <fizzie> elliott: Just Say No to Groundhog Punch.
19:53:08 <elliott> cpressey: i tried to code them in python once, then lol'd and gave up
19:53:16 <cpressey> I'm using a pair ("kind", str) but it's just so crude
19:53:28 <cpressey> and what, define a class for this?
19:53:38 <elliott> cpressey: I was going to have it be
19:53:55 <elliott> Thing = ADT(OneKind=[str], TheOtherKind=[str])
19:54:05 <elliott> which would then create the uninstantiatable Thing class
19:54:05 <zzo38> Is anything relating to the "mana" in "Icosahedral RPG" used in mathematics?
19:54:09 <elliott> and two subclasses, OneKind and TheOtherKind
19:54:39 <elliott> Thing = ADT(OneKind={'name': str}, TheOtherKind={'country': str})
19:54:50 <cpressey> elliott: also: these are dict keys
19:55:21 <elliott> cpressey: anything that can be hashed can be a key
19:55:39 <elliott> cpressey: so I just need to not have field assignment using __foo name magic
19:55:43 <elliott> cpressey: and then it can be hash()ed safely
19:57:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:58:47 <cpressey> elliott: that's great you should totally write a pep
19:59:38 <elliott> cpressey: oh, and to instantiate it would be
20:01:01 <elliott> cpressey: wait no need to have str there
20:01:23 <fizzie> Completely off-topic, but since there's some retroism done here every now and then: the recent altparty's main demo compo was won by a prod for (unextended) VIC-20.
20:04:41 <fizzie> Oh, and #2 was called "Binary of Babel" and had code written in 23 languages; sadly, none of them were actual esoteric ones. (But there was FORTRAN and COBOL and Scheme and whatnot.)
20:05:07 <fizzie> Oh, and something with Bash.
20:05:28 <fizzie> I did like the part where they listed what it was made with ("2000 processes" and so on), and then they made it lag and stutter horribly for the line which said "8 garbage collectors". :p
20:06:13 <olsner> 2000 processes in 64k, that's... something
20:06:18 <zzo38> Did it have: Forth? C? Assembly language? METAFONT?
20:07:11 <fizzie> At least some assembly; can't quite recall about the others; very likely not METAFONT.
20:07:51 <olsner> aha, so #2 was not for VIC-20?
20:07:54 <elliott> fizzie: Did it have Enhanced CWEB?
20:08:52 <fizzie> olsner: No, just the winner. And the unenhanced VIC-20 has 4k of memory, anyway.
20:09:42 <olsner> 2 bytes per process leaving 96 for the monitor - how hard can it be :)
20:10:07 <fizzie> I doubt you'd need to run all 2000 at the same time anyway to be able to claim that.
20:10:42 <elliott> cpressey: you'll never believe this, but -- I almost have Python ADTs working.
20:11:24 <olsner> fizzie: you mean like using swap-to-floppy or something?
20:12:33 <fizzie> olsner: I mean "like" running a process, then running it again with different parameters. Not that the VIC-20 "OS" has a very clear meaning for the word "process".
20:12:44 <ais523> elliott: you'll be glad to hear I came up with an improvement for my URL filter
20:12:48 <ais523> it now shows the URL, unlinked
20:12:58 <elliott> ais523: how... does that help at all?
20:13:05 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if I could make it show up in white text
20:13:10 <elliott> ais523: just reduce the visual noise?
20:13:19 <elliott> ais523: you could send it to a URL shortening service
20:13:30 <ais523> that would be doubly counterproductive, really
20:13:31 <elliott> ais523: that way, all URLs will become really short and non-offensive
20:13:49 <ais523> often, people use a link as a substitute for actual discussion
20:14:00 <ais523> e.g. say http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck rather than brainfuck
20:14:10 <ais523> and so seeing the text is useful for context
20:14:20 <elliott> cpressey: LOL PYTHON'S LACK OF SCOPE BITES BE AGAIN
20:14:40 <ais523> oh right, I filter out colors too
20:14:49 <ais523> I'd forgotten I did that
20:15:04 <elliott> cpressey: Imagine a for loop with element variable foo. Now imagine you have a function inside this for loop that, say, prints foo. Now imagine you store this function in a dictionary somewhere, one for each foo.
20:15:25 <elliott> cpressey: When you call the function in the dictionary for the first -- not last -- element of the list, what does it print out?
20:15:27 <ais523> (necessary for talking to mIRC users who think that white text on a colored background is a good idea; Konversation doesn't render background colors, so...)
20:15:47 <elliott> ais523: who the fuck does that?!
20:16:24 <elliott> ais523: btw, you're welcome to guess at that question i asked cpressey, too
20:16:51 <zzo38> The IRC client I use doesn't render any color specified in the message at all, it uses its own colors
20:21:31 <ais523> elliott: not on Freenode, luckily
20:21:38 <ais523> but it's bitten me on other networks
20:21:49 <elliott> cpressey: you haven't answered my riddle yet
20:21:54 <elliott> cpressey: what does the function print out?
20:22:13 <cpressey> elliott: that you store the function in a dictionary affects things AT ALL is what i'm balking at
20:22:27 <elliott> cpressey: it could be a list or anything, that's not really important
20:22:28 <ais523> elliott: last value in the loop plus one?
20:22:32 <elliott> the only important thing is that it gets outside of the scope
20:22:38 <elliott> ais523: it's a foreach, not a for...
20:22:46 <elliott> cpressey: The answer is: It prints out the last element in the list.
20:22:50 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:22:55 <elliott> cpressey: Why? Because the loop variable foo isn't local to inside of the loop.
20:23:00 <elliott> It's local to *just outside* of it.
20:23:21 <elliott> ...it becomes the new value.
20:23:30 <elliott> That closure which happens to be the parent closure of your function that prints foo.
20:23:34 <elliott> It prints out the last element int he list.
20:23:49 <elliott> To fix it, you need to have a wrapper function which takes foo as a different name and then returns the function you want, and then immediately call that.
20:23:51 <elliott> Can you fucking believe that?
20:23:55 <cpressey> i do not understand this at all
20:24:24 <cpressey> python and functional programming: not gonna happen
20:24:31 <elliott> cpressey: Anyway, I wrote ADTs in Python.
20:24:44 <elliott> You can't subclass an ADT yet, but hey, you can't in Haskell either!
20:26:10 <olsner> cpressey: understanding python means you're as smart as guido
20:26:39 <elliott> cpressey: http://sprunge.us/jSLK. Including example code!
20:28:02 <elliott> cpressey: Isn't it GLORIOUS?
20:28:33 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, did you say zpaste was on github or just git?#
20:28:36 <elliott> There's no github.com/fizzie.
20:34:33 <cpressey> elliott: it is like divine light blasting everything in its path
20:34:48 <elliott> cpressey: Now stick it in whatever you're writing and see if anyone notices.
20:35:01 <olsner> oh, ireland is the largest exporter of bananas in europe
20:37:48 <elliott> "But wait, there's more: You can now do superscript via the ^ character. This one is still a bit experimental; we don't want to overload our servers with lots of really big numbers, so for the first 24 hours, the use of exponents larger than 2 will be restricted to reddit gold subscribers, who I trust will be discreet about using this special ability in front of less fortunate members of the community."
20:37:50 <elliott> this is... definitely a joke.
20:38:11 <fizzie> elliott: http://github.com/fis/zpaste -- it's a bit in the need of cleanup.
20:38:21 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, fancy lah-de-dah three-letter name.
20:38:28 <elliott> Why don't you get that on freenode too, RICHIE? :|
20:38:59 <elliott> fizzie: Pah, you have neglected to include your site's key.
20:39:00 <fizzie> That's my unix user name in many places; not quite why I opted for it in github.
20:43:14 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
20:43:36 -!- augur has joined.
20:45:49 <zzo38> Is there a program that can run the reference implementation of TeX as is, with no changes, in the way emulating the computer it was origiinally written on?
20:46:17 <elliott> pikhq: There is still an existing user of SLS. Discuss.
20:46:32 <zzo38> elliott: What is SLS?
20:46:54 <elliott> zzo38: Softlanding Linux System. One of the very first -- if not the first -- Linux distribution, founded in 1992.
20:47:10 <elliott> zzo38: Slackware was released after it made some changes that Patrick Volkerding didn't like.
20:47:54 <zzo38> If I get a new computer I will make my own Linux distribution, possibly called "Arcane Linux". Because I also don't like some things in other one, so I have to make it differently
20:48:52 <zzo38> Does SLS use old kernel? Is it still distributed?
20:49:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
20:49:14 <ais523> zzo38: this reminds me, we were having an argument in another channel, and you might know the answer: if you freeze a water elemental, does it deanimate, or does it keep moving as an ice elemental, or can it do nothing until it thaws out?
20:49:37 <elliott> pikhq: Ooh; not only does that person use SLS, but he still uses *SCCS*.
20:49:43 -!- zeotrope has joined.
20:49:49 <elliott> He mirrors his SCCS repository on GitHub.
20:49:54 <elliott> You can't make this shit up.
20:50:00 <ais523> elliott: is the distro still maintained? or is he just using really old versions of everything?
20:50:12 <elliott> ais523: SLS hasn't been maintained since... before 1993.
20:50:26 <ais523> I mean, is he maintaining it himself?
20:50:28 <elliott> ais523: He also uses other operating systems, but apparently he tested this piece of software, which is maintained in SCCS, on SLS Linux.
20:50:31 <cpressey> < elliott> He mirrors his SCCS repository on GitHub.
20:50:38 <elliott> ais523: Uhh, I don't know. Maybe. A bit unlikely though.
20:50:42 <elliott> cpressey: It is BEYOND amazing.
20:50:52 <ais523> well, I still use DOS from time to time...
20:51:00 <elliott> ais523: Did I mention that this piece of software is *rather* popular and is used extensively by, among others, reddit?
20:51:34 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/tmp/websplat-does-not-work-on-opera.png
20:51:58 <elliott> Gregor: But what will Sgeo do with his fiancé browser?!
20:52:04 <cpressey> Are there any emulators that provide hooking their emulated serial port up to a pipe in the overlying OS?
20:52:14 <Gregor> elliott: It works on INTERNET FUCKING EXPLORER
20:52:23 <Gregor> (9 beta in standards-compliance mode)
20:52:34 <elliott> Gregor: lawl did you really set your text rendering settings just for this?
20:52:37 <elliott> Or does Opera use its own?
20:52:45 <Gregor> If they're weird, then Opera uses its own.
20:53:05 <elliott> Gregor: Well, the text is a lot thicker than your other screenshots.
20:53:12 <elliott> Like it was light or not hinted.
20:53:22 <elliott> Gregor: Also, tell me that actually works.
20:53:38 <Gregor> No, it just keeps spawning enemies eternally without actually doing any physics.
20:53:49 <zzo38> cpressey: How it will be arcane is all difference from other one, and also other ideas, too.
21:01:10 <cpressey> zzo38: it should run on this: https://www.str-s.com/wyse-wy50-terminal-0005001-wyse-p-287.html
21:01:19 <pikhq> elliott: Holy fucking shit.
21:01:19 <cpressey> note that this will be difficult given that this is a dumb terminal
21:01:39 <pikhq> ais523: SLS is the first distro. *Slackware* effectively replaced it.
21:02:14 <zzo38> cpressey: What should run on that terminal?
21:03:21 <pikhq> It... Uses Linux 1.0.
21:04:16 <cpressey> zzo38: I could compromise, though. Maybe Arcane Linux could just have WY-50 as the default terminal emulation.
21:04:25 <pikhq> It's still available from Ibiblio.
21:05:00 <zzo38> cpressey: Arcane Linux will probably use xterm/ANSI type terminal emulation by default. And it will likely use the newest kernel but with some changes.
21:06:10 <ais523> pikhq: it's likely rather insecure, somehow I don't think Linux 1.0 still gets security fixes...
21:06:38 <elliott> pikhq: I will now create a bootable Linux 0.1 floppy.
21:07:16 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, BTW. Byuu wrote an "snespurify" program that takes ROMS and converts them into a bsnes-friendly format.
21:08:22 <elliott> linux-0.01.tar.bz2 30-Oct-1993 00:00 62K
21:08:26 <elliott> wow, that isn't even an anachronism, is it?
21:09:06 <elliott> they set the date manually? :P
21:09:15 <pikhq> bzip2 was made in 1996.
21:09:28 <elliott> wow, Wiktionary lists anagrams.
21:09:34 <ais523> pikhq: heh, I just looked up that fact
21:09:36 <elliott> anagrams that are also entries, that is
21:09:48 <elliott> Quick, someone give me a name for some formal dress like a tuxedo, but older.
21:09:54 <ais523> likely, the tar format is more recent than 1993 too
21:09:56 <elliott> (Linux 0.1 distro -- it's old tux)
21:10:15 <elliott> ais523: tar was standardised in 1988
21:10:23 <elliott> ais523: but everyone uses the updated 2001 version now
21:10:27 <elliott> ais523: however, things still work with the original format
21:11:05 <elliott> equivalent situational use to a tuxedo but older
21:11:05 <zzo38> Wikipedia page for [[Tuxedo]] redirects to [[Black tie]]
21:11:15 <ais523> elliott: I couldn't think of anything
21:11:45 <pikhq> Hmmmf. Gentoo doesn't have GCC 4.5 even marked as ~amd64. It's masked.
21:11:53 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:12:05 <pikhq> elliott: Can you give me one valid reason to not go out and install a different distro right this instant?
21:12:17 <elliott> pikhq: Your options are, uh, Xubuntu.
21:12:23 <elliott> pikhq: And... cross-compilation.
21:12:57 <elliott> pikhq: IT'S OK YOU CAN USE http://www.funtoo.org/
21:13:40 <elliott> Funtoo switched from bz2 to xz compression in July 2010[13]
21:13:48 <elliott> HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY RESIST
21:14:13 <cpressey> was going to ask if that was sfw then i realized what the world totally needs is a nsfw linux distro
21:14:37 <elliott> oh man white supremacy + linux forum, this is just ... the best thing ever
21:14:40 <elliott> The jewing of Linux part II
21:14:40 <elliott> Interesting discussion on jew Stallman, trying to hijack Linux. How typical.
21:15:20 <elliott> "Being a Fan of Prussian Blue and having used to some extend Linux for the last 7 years, I intend to make a Live / installable CD of a Linux distro "Prussinux" whith special themes, graphics, an audio, to the tune of this neat WN Band."
21:15:25 <elliott> you cannot make this shit up.
21:15:40 <elliott> ("Aryan Linux or Aryanux is a good project, I' ve also come up with Whitnux whith a regalia dressed KKK wizzard, and Nazinux... ;)")
21:15:46 <elliott> i... totally give up on reading this
21:16:30 <elliott> ais523: oh, I know what to call it
21:16:31 <pikhq> elliott: I'd like a distro that's actually up-to-date, rather than having a lot of unmaintained packages. And that doesn't suck. WHY IS THIS HARD.
21:16:46 <elliott> pikhq: Use Threadbare Linux.
21:16:56 <pikhq> Dammit they're making Debian tempting. Very very tempting.
21:16:56 <cpressey> Daniel Robbins sounds like he's related to Tony Robbins: "The following articles, written by Daniel Robbins, will put you on the fast track to becoming a Linux expert. These articles have been used by thousands to learn Linux in a 100% confusion-free environment and are the most effective way to become a master of key Linux technologies -- in a matter of minutes!"
21:17:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:17:04 <elliott> pikhq: Debian + Xfce works quite well.
21:17:11 <elliott> pikhq: sudo aptitude install xorg xfce4 xfce4-goodies
21:17:17 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and sudo aptitude install slim
21:17:20 <elliott> for the simple login manager
21:17:25 <elliott> pikhq: That gets you a full Xfce desktop.
21:17:34 <elliott> pikhq: Er, you have to install sudo first, obviously.
21:17:43 <pikhq> elliott: To Jigdo!
21:17:44 * cpressey enters a 1000% confusion-free environment
21:17:53 <elliott> pikhq: jigdo is deprecated and unmaintained :P
21:17:59 <pikhq> elliott: Testing. They only do Jigdo images.
21:18:06 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
21:18:13 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
21:18:16 <elliott> netinst (generally 135-175 MB) and businesscard (generally 20-50 MB) CD images
21:18:16 <elliott> [amd64][armel][hppa][i386][ia64][mips][mipsel][powerpc][sparc]
21:18:21 * cpressey starts disintigrating from the sheer coherence
21:18:25 <elliott> pikhq: That's the daily build of the testing installer.
21:18:44 <pikhq> elliott: Okay then.
21:18:56 <pikhq> elliott: Why do they still have Jigdo, then? It kinda sucks.
21:18:57 <elliott> Jigdo is pretty stillborn; it never got to the point of actually being usable, then it became dormant for years, then it became abandoned.
21:19:06 <elliott> pikhq: Because Debian ... don't really remove stuff.
21:19:24 <elliott> pikhq: They are not information elitists :P
21:19:30 <elliott> pikhq: They are digital communists.
21:19:36 <elliott> cpressey: THREADBARE LINUX DUDE
21:19:38 <elliott> cpressey: it runs on linux 0.1
21:19:58 <cpressey> elliott: and Kitten *won't*? are you *nuts*?
21:19:58 <elliott> cc: unrecognized option '-0'
21:20:07 <elliott> cpressey: I'm only nuts in HUTS! What?
21:20:32 <cpressey> LINUX 0.1 and NETBSD CO-KERNELling together somehows
21:21:02 <elliott> Okay, so I need an a.out compiler.
21:21:13 <elliott> pikhq: Debian has no a.out compilers!
21:21:15 <cpressey> http://www.minix3.org/previous-versions/Intel-2.0.3/wwwman/man1/chmem.1.html presumably
21:21:30 <cpressey> it's like AmigaDOS'es "stack" command
21:21:58 <elliott> cpressey: i am totally going to get this doing graphics
21:22:09 <elliott> how hard can the X protocol be?!
21:22:47 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, and for multilib support I guess I'll just have a Debian chroot. It's at least much easier than a Gentoo chroot.
21:22:52 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, "debootstrap".
21:22:54 <olsner> I think the basics of X are pretty simple... you'll have to learn a hundred misused, overused, disused, deprecated extensions though
21:23:09 <pikhq> Actually, for a while I had a 32-bit Debian chroot on my Gentoo system.
21:23:45 <elliott> pikhq: By the way, make sure to *untick* "Graphical desktop environment" or whatever when it asks what you want to install.
21:23:55 <pikhq> elliott: Of course.
21:24:04 <pikhq> elliott: Why would I want to start with anything beyond the base install?
21:24:06 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and you probably want the graphical (it's exactly the same as the textual one, just easier to read), non-expert (the expert install is *crazy*) install.
21:24:18 <elliott> By crazy I mean absolutely crazy.
21:24:19 <pikhq> I've used Debian before you know.
21:24:25 <elliott> You can set up an encrypted LVM RAID in the installer.
21:24:33 <pikhq> And I've used the expert install.
21:24:34 <elliott> pikhq: Right, well, debian-installer gets changed a lot, so :P
21:24:49 <elliott> Do you know how I know that?
21:24:51 <elliott> Because it will never be changed.
21:25:17 <pikhq> Anyways. I'm figuring I'll create a new LVM volume to install the Debian root on so if I really do something stupid Gentoo's still *there*.
21:25:35 <elliott> pikhq: http://wiki.debian.org/BuildingCrossCompilers
21:25:45 <elliott> http://www.emdebian.org/tools/crosstools.html
21:25:50 <elliott> pikhq: They have a bunch of cross-compilers pre-compiled ^
21:25:57 <elliott> "Once you have that then install whichever version of the tools you want. e.g:
21:25:57 <elliott> apt-get install libc6-armel-cross libc6-dev-armel-cross binutils-arm-linux-gnueabi gcc-4.3-arm-linux-gnueabi g++-4.3-arm-linux-gnueabi"
21:26:16 <elliott> It's not cdrecord in Debian! Well it is, but it's not from the cdrecord release.
21:26:36 <elliott> pikhq: That's the name of the actual program.
21:26:44 <elliott> pikhq: It's exactly the same (fork of last sanely-licensed cdrecord).
21:26:47 <elliott> So just use wodim(1) instead :P
21:27:29 <elliott> And if you want to read a whine about it, well, http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/linux-dist.htm!
21:29:20 <elliott> pikhq: Why is it so hard to get an a.out toolchain?
21:30:02 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/threadbare$ sudo debootstrap --arch=i386 lenny build
21:31:41 <elliott> pikhq: Come to think of it, I may want to compile a circa-1993 toolchain...NO.
21:31:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, try playing websplat on http://wiki.winehq.org/Wine64ForPackagers the scoreboard looks broken
21:32:04 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, when installing Xfce, remember to include xfce4-goodies; Debian loves to split stuff up...
21:33:09 <Gregor> Vorpal: *eh*, it's not /very/ broken :P
21:34:03 <pikhq> I need to get a new CD burner.
21:34:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, it is *very* broken on http://lipforge.ens-lyon.fr/www/pff/ though
21:34:34 <pikhq> I'd forgotten it needs -force to burn anything.
21:34:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, (if you wonder why that page, I'm just checking on most open tabs of my browser)
21:35:13 <pikhq> And it still fails. Fek.
21:35:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, also you can't stand on all lines of text on the last one I pasted. Try the first one after the top header, you can stand on the links but nowhere else on that line
21:35:38 <elliott> pikhq: You'll need to use unetbootin.
21:35:39 <cpressey> elliott: oh, I used Xfce for a while, after blackbox, on somethingBSD. It was nice
21:35:54 <elliott> xfce is alright it's just so BORING :P
21:36:08 <cpressey> elliott: totally want to write my own. totally never will.
21:36:19 <pikhq> elliott: Eh, I can just use syslinux myself.
21:36:36 -!- Guest11844 has joined.
21:36:56 <elliott> pikhq: when building a cross-compiler, ARCH is a tuple, right?
21:36:59 <elliott> or is it just the architecture name
21:37:48 <elliott> pikhq: what's the tuple for a.out elf on a 386 :P
21:37:54 <elliott> actual 286/386 stuff, none of this i686 shit
21:37:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, any idea why the counters are white on white there?
21:38:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: That page is nasty in general >_>
21:38:22 <pikhq> Oh, handy. Just dd http://d-i.debian.org/daily-images/amd64/daily/hd-media/boot.img.gz to a USB drive after gunzip'ing, and voila.
21:38:29 -!- evincar has joined.
21:38:33 <elliott> pikhq: Yeaaaaah but that's a very limited thing, iirc.
21:38:36 <elliott> pikhq: You have to append the iso.
21:38:44 <elliott> pikhq: You have to append the ISO.
21:38:46 <elliott> wait, doesn't linux 0.1 have a hardcoded swedish keymap?
21:38:55 <pikhq> elliott: Copy it on, not append, apparently. Bleh.
21:38:59 <pikhq> elliott: That's annoying.
21:39:12 <Vorpal> Gregor, it looks HTML4-ish to me, with CSS bolted on
21:39:17 <elliott> (zcat boot.img.gz; cat foo.iso) >/dev/blah
21:39:33 <elliott> you have to put the iso in there
21:39:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, it doesn't use !important so I don't see what could fail
21:39:47 * elliott realises he said "a.out elf"
21:39:59 <elliott> pikhq: so do you know what the tuple is for a.out, linux, 286/386? :P
21:40:42 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm the text you can't stand on seems to be outside any <p>!
21:40:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, that is strange
21:40:51 <Vorpal> is that what breaks it?
21:41:39 <Vorpal> <elliott> wait, doesn't linux 0.1 have a hardcoded swedish keymap? <-- not _that_ different :P
21:41:56 <elliott> root@dinky:/# aptitude install fakeroot dpkg-cross && aptitude build-dep binutils gcc-3.4
21:42:12 <Gregor> Vorpal: Probably, but it shouldn't, I haven't figured it out yet.
21:42:22 <pikhq> What ho, I lack install media.
21:42:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, still I can't figure out what would mess up the score board.
21:42:47 -!- Guest11844 has left (?).
21:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> Gregor, what are the rules for what you can and can't stand on?
21:43:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Complicated.
21:47:06 <elliott> Does anyone know the tuple? >_<
21:47:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:47:40 <elliott> Gregor: YOU SEEM LIKE A CROSS-COMPILEY GUY RIGHT?
21:48:16 <elliott> Ironically, Vorpal is probably the only one here who knows it.
21:48:21 <elliott> For some value of ironically.
21:49:46 <Vorpal> how to build a cross compiler? easy
21:49:57 <Vorpal> but since elliott is probably ignoring me...
21:51:06 <elliott> Now it doesn't record entries in the history.
21:52:11 <elliott> cpressey: I should totally build gcc 2 with it, but Debian has the ability to build gcc 3.4 easily this way and I'm lazy as fuck.
21:52:18 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes, so it was.
21:52:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I do have the power of logs though! Do you know what the tuple is for 286/286 (not i686) a.out?
21:52:35 <evincar> cpressey: Yeeeah, way back in like 2001.
21:52:47 <elliott> Vorpal: And is $ARCH that tuple, or is it just the ISA?
21:53:14 <elliott> I am new to Lynex." <-- could you spell it more wrongly?
21:53:37 <Vorpal> elliott, when it comes to $ARCH, that sounds debian specific. Never used their build system to build a cross compiler. But tuple for 286, I seen that once, trying to remember what it was.
21:53:57 <evincar> elliott: The opposite of rednecks. If your neck ain't good an' red, you must be a lyin' no-good-fer-nuthin' city slicker.
21:54:10 <elliott> "Coming from an atheist, Happy easter!" ;; uh oh, thread implosion predicted in three... two... one...
21:54:43 <Vorpal> elliott, does gcc 3.4 actually support 286?
21:55:35 <Gregor> No versin of GCC supported 286 ...
21:55:47 <elliott> Linux built on a 386, so woo
21:56:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I think $ARCH is just passed to like --arch= or whatever in the cross-compiler.
21:56:09 <Vorpal> elliott, well, 386 is easy. i386-pc-linux-gnu
21:56:28 <Vorpal> though, who knows for linux 0.1
21:56:31 <Vorpal> could have been different then
21:56:36 <fizzie> Gregor: No official version, anyway; there are some DJGPP patches for a 8086-targeting gcc-2.7.2.3 cross-compiler.
21:56:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, I'm building gcc 3.4 to build linux 0.1.
21:56:49 <fizzie> "No 32-bit anything (longs or pointers). No "far". No float or double at all. Since djlink doesn't support commons yet, no uninitialized non-stack variables."
21:56:51 <Vorpal> but i386-pc-linux-gnu is the "traditional" as in "what was common the last 10 years" or such
21:56:55 <fizzie> Okay, you might say it's a bit limited.
21:57:08 <elliott> Vorpal: After I have linux 0.1, I'll install an old circa-1993 or so gcc/libc combo package and rebuild the system with that.
21:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott, did you turn off the ignore? Talking through logs is quite silly
21:57:41 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:57:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Fine, fine, I'll turn it off.
21:57:59 <elliott> Now my ignore list is only one person big!
21:58:05 <Vorpal> elliott, it has been rather peaceful the last few days though. :P
21:58:20 <Vorpal> elliott, boringly peaceful even
21:58:27 <elliott> Yes. We need more arguments.
21:58:50 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, say something disagreaable.
21:59:09 <elliott> Vorpal: any idea what -mstring-insns did? :P
21:59:10 <Vorpal> argh! spacing is horrible there (does it even work?)
21:59:25 <Vorpal> elliott, uh... I seen that quite reasonably.
21:59:31 <Vorpal> sure it isn't still supported?
21:59:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Recently presumably?
21:59:41 <elliott> # If you don't have '-mstring-insns' in your gcc (and nobody but me has :-)
21:59:41 <elliott> # remove them from the CFLAGS defines.
21:59:47 <elliott> -- Linus Torvalds, Makefile, linux 0.1
22:00:00 <elliott> Linux: The 0.01 Release | KernelTrap
22:00:00 <elliott> 26 Jul 2007 ... I'm using a slightly hacked gcc-1.40, to which I have added a -mstring-insns flag, which uses the i386 string instructions for structure ...
22:00:09 <elliott> it used 386 string functions
22:00:24 <elliott> Vorpal: someone's look back at it
22:00:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I was about to say that it seemed plausible that it was something to do with string instructions however
22:00:55 <elliott> I'll just compile it without
22:01:06 <elliott> Vorpal: I do need a cc/as/etc. with a "-0" flag though.
22:01:15 <Vorpal> elliott, is that a zero?
22:01:22 <elliott> Vorpal: yes. and no i have no idea either
22:01:31 <elliott> # If you don't have '-mstring-insns' in your gcc (and nobody but me has :-)
22:01:31 <elliott> # remove them from the CFLAGS defines.
22:01:33 <elliott> CFLAGS =-Wall -O -fstrength-reduce -fomit-frame-pointer -fcombine-regs
22:01:53 <elliott> "I especially like my hard-disk-driver. Anybody else make interrupts drive a state-machine?"
22:02:07 <Vorpal> elliott, -fcombine-regs doesn't sound familiar to me at all
22:02:15 <Vorpal> elliott, better check your cross gcc has it
22:02:22 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll just cut it out.
22:02:30 <Vorpal> elliott, it could break something
22:02:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I just need something to boot, *then* I can recompile it historically accurately.
22:02:40 <elliott> I doubt gcc 1 would run on this system, after all.
22:02:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't even found any gcc 1 copy
22:03:10 <cpressey> < elliott> "I especially like my hard-disk-driver. Anybody else make interrupts drive a state-machine?"
22:03:13 <elliott> Vorpal: David Parsons has some really old gcc/libc combo distributions.
22:03:19 <elliott> Vorpal: tarballs named jumpN
22:03:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm trying to load that page.
22:03:27 <elliott> cpressey: Linus Torvalds is AWESOME
22:03:36 <Vorpal> that sounds like a awesome way to implement a hard disk driver
22:03:48 <elliott> [[Older versions of libc were apparently shipped tightly coupled with gcc, under the names “jump4?.tar” — if you have one of these tarballs lying around on an old SLS, Slackware, MCC, TAMU, or root/boot set, I’d love to have a copy of it.]]
22:03:52 <elliott> I could steal it from the SLS floppies
22:04:03 <Vorpal> elliott, you have SLS floppies?
22:04:18 <elliott> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/sls/1.03/
22:04:34 <Vorpal> elliott, they might use ext, that is what we would today call ext1
22:04:41 <Vorpal> which is definitely no longer supported
22:04:42 <elliott> Vorpal: minix file system.
22:04:47 <elliott> Vorpal: oh wait the floppies?
22:04:50 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, which iirc *is* still supported
22:04:51 <elliott> Vorpal: no, one of them's a boot floppy
22:04:55 <elliott> Vorpal: and the others are just directories
22:05:00 <elliott> which you can write as either i think linux
22:05:34 <Vorpal> elliott, ibiblio is extremely slow from here, still loading. Always like that...
22:05:43 <elliott> well they're not exactly prioritising speed :D
22:05:55 <elliott> Vorpal: http://gcc.gnu.org/releases.html
22:05:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I heard people in US claim it was fast from there
22:06:12 <elliott> but they appear to not have older versions
22:06:16 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the oldest one around indeed
22:06:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Rate how exciting this idea sounds: Digging around SLS floppies
22:06:46 <elliott> Answer: REALLY FUCKING EXCITING
22:06:55 <Vorpal> it might be interesting indeed
22:07:00 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/sls/1.03/
22:07:12 <elliott> They have reasonably-named filse in like "lilo.tgz"
22:07:27 <elliott> Psht it's totally too new if it's ELF though.
22:07:35 <elliott> Pretty sure Linux 0.1 was a.out only :P
22:07:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well, ELF ABI *docs* or what
22:07:51 <elliott> HA cool linux 0.1 comes with an init
22:08:00 <elliott> * we need this inline - forking from kernel space will result
22:08:00 <elliott> * in NO COPY ON WRITE (!!!), until an execve is executed. This
22:08:15 <elliott> #define CMOS_READ(addr) ({ \
22:08:15 <elliott> #define BCD_TO_BIN(val) ((val)=((val)&15) + ((val)>>4)*10)
22:08:22 <Vorpal> emacs fit on a floppy it seems. Even then it took almost an entire one though
22:08:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm totally going to get X11 running on this thing.
22:08:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't care if I have to backport smallX.
22:08:48 <elliott> http://www.superant.com/smalllinux/tinyX01.html
22:08:59 <elliott> "My experience has been using Linux with X Windows on a desktop system with 4 meg of ram and a 200 meg harddrive."
22:09:09 * Vorpal forces elliott to backport one of the X versions using HAL
22:09:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Don't be silly. X.org never used HAL. Next you'll be telling me The Matrix has sequels.
22:10:07 <elliott> at least i think smallX uses libc5
22:10:29 <elliott> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/sls/1.03/a3/theory.sls
22:10:37 <Vorpal> clisp.tgz 08-Sep-2003 15:09 367K
22:10:43 <Vorpal> I wonder what version that was
22:10:54 <elliott> Vorpal: holy crap, it has a package manager
22:10:55 <elliott> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/sls/1.03/a3/theory.sls
22:11:19 <Vorpal> elliott, why? It is small enough there isn't much point to have a package manager
22:11:19 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:12:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I did not spot libc, I did come a cross some gccish thingy
22:12:10 <fizzie> elliott: http://gcc-uk.internet.bs/old-releases/gcc-1/ if you needed a GCC 1 copy.
22:12:22 <Vorpal> gxx245.tgz 08-Sep-2003 15:09 556K
22:12:28 <elliott> fizzie: I do, thank you kindly.
22:12:35 <fizzie> 1.21 .. 1.42 are there.
22:12:37 <Vorpal> elliott, this one has a rather later gcc version
22:12:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, useless modern bloat.
22:12:51 <fizzie> (I think I located that link when looking for the nethack pragma thing.)
22:12:55 -!- wareya has joined.
22:12:59 <elliott> "You need to compile it with gcc (I use 1.40, don't know if
22:13:00 <elliott> 1.37.1 will handle all __asm__-directives)"
22:13:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, nethack pragma?
22:13:13 <elliott> gcc-1.40.tar.bz2 02-Jun-1991 10:03 1.4M
22:13:34 <elliott> fizzie: Uhh, I'll also need a similarly-aged libc.
22:13:37 <fizzie> GCC sources in 1.4M: obviously part of the Good Old Days.
22:14:02 * elliott looks at http://www.oldlinux.org/
22:14:30 <elliott> http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/
22:14:40 <elliott> http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/libs/libc/!
22:15:10 <Vorpal> * elliott looks at http://www.oldlinux.org/ <-- aaargh the wide chars
22:15:23 <elliott> It looks perfectly normal to me.
22:15:59 <Vorpal> elliott, it renders using those wide "fit into japanese/chinese text" thingies for me
22:16:06 <elliott> Vorpal: your fonts suck :P
22:16:09 <elliott> # Usage: config.gcc [vint] [-srcdir=DIR] machine
22:16:15 <Vorpal> elliott, only to the entry "changelog" though
22:16:20 <Vorpal> after that it is normal
22:16:31 <Vorpal> elliott, vertical integer?
22:16:43 <elliott> Vertically integrated compiler manufacturing
22:16:52 <elliott> vax) # for vaxen running bsd
22:16:52 <elliott> ultrix) # for vaxen running ultrix
22:17:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: The header there has <FONT face="Times New Roman, Times">CHANGELOG</FONT> -- I guess that, even after </font>, still affects the rendering.
22:17:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, you see the same issue as I do?
22:17:33 <Vorpal> elliott, vint = "Very Integrated Natural Technology"
22:18:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not exactly: it looks reasonably normal-width, but I don't think it's in my default font.
22:18:02 <elliott> fizzie: It displays in FreeSerif for me I think.
22:18:15 <elliott> Not my default font, but still perfectly reasonable.
22:18:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm going to have all the versions of this start with 0.01.
22:18:37 <elliott> Threadbare linux system 0.0129
22:18:39 <Vorpal> elliott, not gcc, I doubt that would work
22:18:55 <elliott> Vorpal: The only Linux distro to be built on linux 0.01! Ever!
22:19:16 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:19:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Featuring: A compiler! Libraries! Bash! An X server!
22:19:57 <cheater_> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/shell/csh-whynot/
22:20:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Comes with COMPLETE source code and makefile to build the floppies.
22:20:33 <elliott> Vorpal: And speaking of floppies, it fits on three! Or four!
22:20:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. Linus Torvalds used bash on linux 0.01.
22:20:53 <elliott> I know this because the release notes say that bash works.
22:21:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course, that's, like, bash 1.
22:21:10 <cheater_> elliott: read that faq, it's funny
22:21:13 <Vorpal> elliott, be aware of that modern syntax is not likely to work
22:21:14 <elliott> Or 2, maybe. More likely 1.
22:21:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Nothing modern will work. At all.
22:21:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:21:48 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but that will make the boot strapping from a modern system painful
22:21:54 <elliott> i386-sysv | i386v) # for Intel 80386's running system V
22:21:57 <Vorpal> elliott, also just forget virtualbox, go for qemu probably
22:22:05 -!- tombom_ has joined.
22:22:10 <Vorpal> elliott, is that from config.guess?
22:22:16 <elliott> The only configure script.
22:22:21 <elliott> It just sets up some symlinks for the makefile.
22:22:27 <elliott> Vorpal: The oldlinux.org guy got linux 0.11 working in bochs.
22:22:28 <Vorpal> elliott, not autoconf I guess
22:22:30 <elliott> So if qemu doesn't work I'll go bochs.
22:22:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I misspoke when I said 1993 of course.
22:22:45 <elliott> Vorpal: This is from 1991.
22:23:41 <elliott> "Compile the source, making necessary changes into the
22:23:42 <elliott> makefiles and linux/include/linux/config.h and linux/boot/boot.s."
22:24:01 <Vorpal> but in the csh, you can't redirect stdout out stderr, so you end up doing something silly like this:
22:24:01 <Vorpal> sh -c 'echo "$0: cannot find $file" 1>&2'
22:24:19 <elliott> Vorpal: is that from the old csh sucks thing?
22:24:29 <elliott> also, it should clearly be
22:24:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it is from http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/shell/csh-whynot/ which cpressey linked above
22:24:37 <elliott> echo "$0: cannot find $file" | sh -s 'cat 1>&2'
22:24:46 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:24:53 <elliott> err 1> is of course useless
22:24:55 <elliott> echo "$0: cannot find $file" | sh -s 'cat>&2'
22:24:59 <elliott> echo "$0: cannot find $file" | sh -c 'cat>&2'
22:25:40 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm going to have to compile gcc 1.40 for *minix*
22:25:50 <elliott> interesting to note at this point is that i DON'T HAVE MINIX
22:26:02 <elliott> what E486: Pattern not found: minix
22:26:23 <elliott> Vorpal: i should just compile the kernel with gcc 3.4, shouldn't i
22:26:57 <Vorpal> elliott, if that works
22:27:00 <Vorpal> elliott, which it might not
22:27:08 <elliott> Vorpal: *shrug*, I'm fine making small patches.
22:27:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea how much would would be required. At all
22:27:34 <elliott> Vorpal: It's actually linux 0.01tb!
22:28:09 <cpressey> I need a better Jabber client than Empathy. People IM me and it doesn't notify me in any perceptible way.
22:28:13 <fizzie> elliott: What you should do is to go find Linus, get a big one of those butterfly net things, catch him in it, and then make him make it work; after all, he's done it before.
22:28:48 <elliott> cpressey: Also, Empathy does notify you if you have a libnotify daemon thing running.
22:29:00 <fizzie> I went back to bitlbee for Jabber again, but, well, you know, bitlbee.
22:29:04 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, but he built it in 1991 on Minix :P
22:29:17 <elliott> fizzie: "but, well, you know, bitlbee" summarises my feelings about bitlbee exactly.
22:29:27 <cpressey> elliott: pikhq will hate you for putting someone back in the claws of The Pidge.
22:29:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Tuberculosis! Actually Threadbare.
22:29:33 <elliott> cpressey: pikhq uses Pidgin.
22:29:51 <cpressey> elliott: wait, was it not him who was virulently anti-Pidgin?
22:29:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Diffs are offered from stock linux 0.01!
22:30:04 <elliott> cpressey: He said it sucked the last time he tried it and I said it was a little better and he said yeah actually it is.
22:30:28 <elliott> cpressey: hey typing oaky for okay is MINE
22:30:39 <elliott> cpressey: bitlbee! It's a local IRC server.
22:30:42 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to emulate AT. not ATA.
22:30:44 <cpressey> "unf" was completely accidental btw
22:30:47 <elliott> It pretends all your contacts are little IRC users.
22:31:09 <Vorpal> elliott, check release notes
22:31:13 <elliott> cpressey: also you'll want to install pidgin-libnotify.
22:31:28 <cpressey> unf -> right hand outpacing left hand a lot
22:31:47 <elliott> cpressey: How to make Pidgin not awful: Set contact list to compact mode. Go into sound configuration, disable the annoying buddy logs on/off sounds. Go to plugins, configure libnotify plugin, probably turn off buddy signs on/off notifications unless you want them.
22:32:04 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I'm sure for 0.01
22:32:07 <elliott> cpressey: Go into Pidgin preferences, set minimum message box height to zero. Start conversation. Go into the menus, select Disable Formatting Toolbar.
22:32:13 <elliott> Vorpal: qemu can't do that right?
22:32:21 <Vorpal> - AT-type harddisk controller (IDE is fine)
22:32:38 <elliott> Vorpal: oh man I'm going to patch the libc to pretend it's eternal whatever-day-Linux-was-released
22:32:47 <elliott> Vorpal: forget eternal september with its day numbers in the thousands
22:32:51 <elliott> we're gonna have SO MANY FUCKING HOURS in this day
22:32:59 <elliott> bootup message: "Welcome to 1991!"
22:33:11 <Vorpal> elliott, you are going to overflow those unsigned chars
22:33:24 <elliott> Better if they were signed./
22:33:28 <Vorpal> elliott, because I doubt they wasted 32 bits on hours back then
22:33:44 <Vorpal> elliott, you could change the ABI quite easily
22:33:45 <elliott> of course they were wasteful.
22:33:51 <Vorpal> elliott, not so much back then
22:33:55 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, you could change the ABI quite easily
22:34:05 <elliott> it would be no fuss doing so
22:34:10 <elliott> since i'd have to recompile everything anyway
22:34:26 <Vorpal> elliott, and there isn't a lot to recompile!
22:34:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Supported upgrade method:
22:34:40 <Vorpal> elliott, please keep the original charmap by default
22:34:47 <elliott> ...download new source tgz...
22:34:51 <Vorpal> elliott, make it a compile time option to accept other ones or such
22:34:58 <Vorpal> elliott, the original is *traditional*
22:35:22 <elliott> This produces all the binaries, right?
22:35:38 <Vorpal> elliott, this looks BSDish suddenly
22:35:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Did I mention that would replace your currently-executing kernel file too?
22:36:06 <Vorpal> elliott, is 0.01 actually self hosting?
22:36:11 <elliott> Vorpal: It runs gcc, I think.
22:36:24 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012113537]).
22:36:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Did I mention that src.tgz contains literally every program in the system?
22:36:53 <elliott> From kernel to gcc to libc to smallX to whatever else. :P
22:36:59 <elliott> RECOMPILE EVERYTHING WOO IT'S JUST LIKE GENTOO
22:37:06 <elliott> Actually, the make steps would probably be
22:37:07 <Gregor> SMW "seconds" are 2/3rds of a second.
22:37:40 <elliott> Because you want to compile everything with the latest gcc and libc, of course!
22:37:57 <elliott> Gregor: Every three seconds, decrement the time by two. Easy!
22:38:11 <elliott> Gregor: Clearly they only had cycles enough to decrement something twice every three seconds.
22:38:17 <Gregor> elliott: Alternatively, every 20 frames, decrement the time by one ...
22:38:54 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm going to have to set up a Minix box, aren't I?
22:38:55 <Vorpal> elliott, fun, read "6. The file system" in the release notes
22:39:01 <Vorpal> elliott, that is some fragile stuff
22:39:20 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/Linux-0.01/docs/
22:39:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you need 1.5.10 of minix:
22:39:24 <elliott> INSTALLATION there is interesting.
22:39:27 <Vorpal> NOTE! Minix-1.6.16 seems to have a new FS, with minor
22:39:27 <Vorpal> modifications to the 1.5.10 I've been using. Linux
22:39:27 <Vorpal> won't understand the new system.
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22:40:03 <elliott> [[The main difference is in the fact that minix has a single-threaded
22:40:03 <elliott> file-system and linux hasn't. Implementing a single-threaded FS is much
22:40:03 <elliott> easier as you don't need to worry about other processes allocating
22:40:03 <elliott> buffer blocks etc while you do something else. It also means that you
22:40:03 <elliott> lose some of the multiprocessing so important to unix.]]
22:40:05 <Vorpal> elliott, a bit further down: "Sadly it has the not so nice property that race-conditions can happen almost everywhere. "
22:40:08 <elliott> Vorpal: "We're better than Minix!"
22:40:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I guess multitasking is not so recommended.
22:40:49 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:40:54 <elliott> Intel-1.5Unpackedbzipped tar filegzipped tar file
22:41:16 <elliott> pikhq: You have Debian testing installed?
22:41:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, that was quite fitting to the convo elliott had
22:41:35 <elliott> Vorpal: that is the worst fs design ever :D
22:41:47 <elliott> although i have a lot of dread at this.
22:42:04 <elliott> should find binaries for 'update' and 'bash' at the same place you found
22:42:04 <elliott> this, which will have to be put into the '/bin' directory on the
22:42:08 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't want to self host this thingy
22:42:14 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't see why not.
22:42:26 <Vorpal> elliott, the fs is likely to break during compilation
22:42:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Not if I do it single-taskedly...
22:42:32 <Vorpal> elliott, "update"? what it is supposed to do
22:43:02 <pikhq> And now audio isn't working.
22:43:09 <elliott> pikhq: You haven't installed ALSA.
22:43:14 <Vorpal> elliott, a daemon of some sort
22:43:17 <elliott> pikhq: (I wouldn't trust Debian's OSSv4.)
22:43:24 <elliott> Vorpal: But anyway, you could easily just compile it by shutting down X and compiling.
22:43:25 <Vorpal> "Logging out from the "login-shell" will automatically do a sync, and will leave you hanging without any processes (except update, which isn't much fun), so do the "three-finger-salute" to restart dos/minix/linux or whatever."
22:43:27 <elliott> I doubt it did multiple consoles.
22:43:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I guess it's the included init/
22:43:54 <Vorpal> elliott, strange name for it
22:44:07 <Vorpal> elliott, this version has no file system security I think
22:44:08 <elliott> Anyway, this is a distraction! Let us all download Minix 1.5.
22:44:11 <elliott> http://www.minix3.org/previous-versions/bzipped/Intel-1.5.tar.bz2
22:44:45 <elliott> Sweet! It's floppy images.
22:44:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I remember reading somewhere that linus implemented file system permissions the day after he did minicom /dev/hda (or the equiv back then) by mistake
22:45:00 <Vorpal> instead of minicom /dev/ttyS0
22:45:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Wow... what would that have done?
22:45:10 <cpressey> tabbed everything is stupidest idea
22:45:15 <pikhq> Ah, wait, there it is. ALSA settings.
22:45:20 <elliott> cpressey: Huh hm what are you using
22:45:26 <elliott> pikhq: You probably *don't have ALSA installed*.
22:45:26 <Vorpal> elliott, written modem AT commands to the boot sector I think :P
22:45:44 <pikhq> elliott: I hadn't set the mixer right.
22:45:50 <Vorpal> elliott, port OSSv4 to linux 0.01
22:45:52 <pikhq> elliott: ALSA is a dependency of Quod Libet. :P
22:45:59 <elliott> pikhq: Doesn't it use gstreamer?
22:46:07 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and MIDORI MIDORI MIDORI
22:46:08 <cpressey> elliott: It's not the WM so much as the TABS. and i can't do much about stupid app ui design can i.
22:46:22 <elliott> cpressey: gnome wm has no tabs so you mean like
22:46:44 <pikhq> elliott: gstreamer has a recommended dependency on ALSA. And Debian now actually assumes you want the recommendations unless you tell it not to.
22:46:54 <elliott> pikhq: You can override that.
22:47:03 <elliott> pikhq: But, really, I wouldn't trust Debian's OSSv4. :P
22:47:17 <pikhq> elliott: I haven't installed Debian's OSSv4, so. :P
22:47:27 <elliott> Vorpal: this actually fucking shows a boot menu.
22:47:42 <elliott> standard, U.S. extended or Dutch for PS/2
22:47:48 <elliott> kernels: AT, XT, PS/2, BIOS
22:47:54 * elliott , adventurously, tries PS/2
22:48:34 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to keep the .fi keymap as hardcoded default. It is historic after all.
22:48:57 <Vorpal> elliott, sad linux went US keymap by default
22:50:06 <elliott> Vorpal: it's swedish isn't it
22:50:20 <elliott> sweden-speaking minority of finland
22:50:21 <Vorpal> elliott, today they are. I don't know if they were back then
22:50:31 <elliott> Vorpal: i meant the hardcoded keymap
22:50:35 <elliott> they may be the same, yeah
22:50:45 <elliott> uh how do you switch floppy with qemu's console?
22:50:50 <Vorpal> elliott, today fi and se keymaps are the same
22:51:07 <pikhq> elliott: But, anyways, this is nice. It just works.
22:51:13 <Vorpal> elliott, who knows if they were the same in 1991
22:51:26 <elliott> pikhq: I'm thinking about installing that setup myself now.
22:51:31 <elliott> Xfce really is a nice little thing.
22:51:43 <elliott> I was on Arch/Xfce before but that sucked ass.
22:51:49 <elliott> But that's just because Arch sucks ass :P
22:52:06 <elliott> "The fda device has not been found"
22:52:07 <Vorpal> elliott, sourcemage/xfce
22:52:24 <elliott> and even though this guide says fda so presumably it was fda at one point
22:52:39 <Vorpal> elliott, which one was that now again
22:52:49 <elliott> Vorpal: [[Frugalware Linux is a general-purpose Linux distribution designed for intermediate users who are familiar with command-line operations. It is based on Slackware, but uses the Pacman package management system.[1]]]
22:52:55 <elliott> it is a bit rubbish, I gather
22:53:06 -!- zeotrope has left (?).
22:53:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Progeny Componentized Linux/Xfce
22:53:36 <elliott> i'm just reeling off the list here
22:53:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I never heard that one
22:53:42 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progeny_Linux_Systems
22:53:50 <elliott> Vorpal: made by the company run by Ian Murdock, Debian founder!
22:53:53 <Vorpal> elliott, Mandriva/CDE!
22:54:21 <elliott> omg invalid root file sysetm
22:54:21 <Vorpal> you did that one intentionally :P
22:54:46 <elliott> i -- think i hate cpressey for giving me that image.
22:55:18 <elliott> Vorpal: okay i'm going to use the bios kernel
22:55:21 <elliott> it'll almost certainly work! :P
22:55:24 <Vorpal> I thought hotjava was a browser or something?
22:55:50 <elliott> the first browser to be JAVA-ENABLED
22:55:59 <elliott> <elliott> it'll almost certainly work! :P
22:56:05 <elliott> ok so your message was in-between
22:56:38 <elliott> well this is ... not reassuring
22:56:43 <elliott> anyone else wanna try and get minix to boot?
22:57:21 <Vorpal> elliott, try getting 0.1 to work, then bootstrap it from there?
22:57:38 <elliott> way more fun to build it from minix
22:57:41 <Vorpal> elliott, or try the dog slow emulator
22:57:46 <Vorpal> that probably will work
22:57:50 <elliott> bochs' slowness doesn't bother me
22:57:52 <elliott> it's the configuration file
22:58:09 <Vorpal> I forgot what it was like
22:58:10 <elliott> - Finnish keyboard (oh, you can use a US keyboard, but not
22:58:23 <elliott> okay okay so it means the keys map wrongly
22:58:28 <Vorpal> elliott, *couldn't back then
22:58:42 <Vorpal> elliott, and well it wouldn't help
22:58:43 <elliott> it could have simply been that the scancodes are different
22:59:01 <elliott> The Finnish keyboard is hard-wired, and as I don't have a US one I
22:59:01 <elliott> cannot change it without major problems. See kernel/keyboard.s for
22:59:01 <elliott> details. If anybody is willing to make an even partial port, I'd be
22:59:01 <elliott> grateful. Shouldn't be too hard, as it's tabledriven (it's assembler
22:59:05 <elliott> making that patch will be FUN
22:59:21 <Vorpal> elliott, keep it as it is ;P
22:59:35 <Vorpal> elliott, scan codes are the same on US and fi I guess. But someone used to US layout wouldn't expect / on shift-7 iirc
22:59:49 <elliott> Vorpal: linux 0.01tb can be patched, it's MODERN!
23:00:06 <Vorpal> elliott, must support Swedish layout still
23:00:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well they are the same afaik
23:00:35 <elliott> Vorpal: probably what it'll be is a diff file
23:00:39 <elliott> and "make us" will apply it
23:00:42 <elliott> note: make us will be the default :P
23:00:57 <Vorpal> elliott, it shouldn't be. That is non-traditional :P
23:01:08 <elliott> Vorpal: not for linux 0.01tb!
23:01:20 <Vorpal> elliott, if you get minix working
23:01:23 <elliott> Vorpal: you could easily say
23:01:47 <elliott> of course, the linux target it
23:02:37 <elliott> Vorpal: you know the great thing? I don't need version numbers for the software
23:02:39 <elliott> because i will never upgrade
23:02:52 <Vorpal> elliott, will this be your main system?
23:03:01 <Vorpal> elliott, also I'm sure you will need to patch it a few times
23:03:11 <elliott> Vorpal: patched versions just become part of the next tb release, duh
23:03:34 <Vorpal> elliott, tb needs version numbers
23:03:38 <elliott> actually come to think of it making everyone download src.tgz each time would be cruel, not everybody can afford that kind of bandwidth (and time!)
23:03:50 <elliott> which you can apply to your /usr/src tree
23:05:29 <Vorpal> elliott, that one should be diff-0.0123.gz or such
23:05:34 <elliott> Vorpal: get it from ftp, ac.unix.flr.ac.uk in pub/extra/user/e/ellioh/tbsys/srcdiff.gz!
23:05:41 <Vorpal> elliott, the chance of typos is too easy otherwise
23:05:45 <elliott> (system limits usernames to six chars!)
23:05:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhh, dude, that's not an 8.3 filename.
23:06:09 <Vorpal> elliott, linux was 8.3 limited?
23:06:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Well if you're going to put it onto a floppy...
23:06:32 <elliott> Generally things should be 8.3 because then you can put things onto a FAT floppy from MSDOS.
23:06:46 <elliott> Otherwise you'd need linux to install and that'd be a pain.
23:06:57 <elliott> It's not exactly a very well-known OS.
23:07:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, for install you wouldn't download diff
23:07:29 <elliott> Vorpal: But say you have an internet connection at uni but not at home.
23:07:37 <elliott> (This is, of course, by far the most probable situation in 1991.)
23:07:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:07:48 <Vorpal> elliott, you just need to support whatever network card bochs emulates
23:07:52 <elliott> Vorpal: You could download the file onto your school's mainframe
23:07:56 <Vorpal> and implement a TCP stack
23:07:58 <elliott> and copy it to a DOS floppy
23:08:06 <elliott> Then go home and use that to update.
23:08:22 <elliott> Vorpal: How can you afford internet at home?!
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23:10:21 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why you download it from a BBS instead
23:10:35 <elliott> Vorpal: All those megabytes???
23:10:49 <Vorpal> elliott, megabytes? *you* are insane :P
23:10:55 <elliott> Vorpal: It goes on three floppies!
23:11:16 <Vorpal> elliott, single sided ones right?
23:11:26 <elliott> Vorpal: 5 inch will work, as long as it's 1.44
23:11:41 <Vorpal> elliott, what?! no 8"?
23:12:07 <Vorpal> elliott, also 5 never went up to 1.44
23:12:30 <elliott> Thus, all of the files in the a2 directory should be copied to a
23:12:30 <elliott> single floppy disk labeled a2; all of the files in the a4 directory
23:12:30 <elliott> should be copied to a single floppy disk labeled a4; and so on. It
23:12:30 <elliott> doesn't matter whether the floppies are 3 or 5 inch floppies; however,
23:12:30 <elliott> they do need to be the high density 1.2 meg or 1.44 meg size.
23:12:32 <Vorpal> 5¼-inch HD = 1.2 MB is max according to wikipedia
23:13:52 <cpressey> i can barely conceive of 1.2M on a 5-1/4" disk
23:14:34 <elliott> pikhq: What I wish Debian has is the patched freetype. Sigh.
23:14:36 <Vorpal> cpressey, introduced in 1982
23:15:09 <Vorpal> "5¼-inch Perpendicular" 10 MB
23:15:17 <pikhq> elliott: Shouldn't be long, though.
23:15:26 <Vorpal> I wonder if that is vandalism
23:15:28 <elliott> pikhq: says pikhq, about motherfucking *DEBIAN*
23:16:27 <Vorpal> "Looking similar to a standard 3 1/2-inch microfloppy, Maxell's new perpendicular recording disk stands magnetic particles on end to pack up to 100K of data per inch, about ten times the amount of a normal microfloppy."
23:17:00 <Vorpal> elliott, follow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#cite_note-1986_maxell_drives-15
23:17:13 <Vorpal> "But don't expect to see the perpendicular disk on store shelves for awhile. Perpendicular recording has been on the drawing boards for several years, but still hasn't proven to be as cost effective or as easily produced as traditional magnetic media, says Maxell's David Berry."
23:17:36 <Vorpal> "Stripped-away views of two new 31/2-inch Winchester-style 30- and 20-megabyte hard-disk drives from Peripheral Technology, Inc. Unlike floppies, these hard disks are nonremovable media."
23:18:02 <Vorpal> "On another front, computer users are finding that Winchester-style hard disk drives are increasing in performance as they drop in price. Lower prices and ease of use—especially important with today's increasingly integrated, memory-hungry applications—are making hard disks attractive even to casual computer users"
23:18:14 <Vorpal> it goes on to explain what a hard disk is
23:18:31 <elliott> Vorpal: hey, minix gave me an error about reading winchester!
23:18:35 <elliott> when i tried to boot it :P
23:18:50 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you doing now btw?
23:18:52 <elliott> i'm just wondering which combination i want
23:19:02 <Vorpal> elliott, minix in bochs
23:19:02 <elliott> Vorpal: taking a short break, pondering about whether to install debian or not :P
23:19:15 <elliott> Vorpal: you write the bochs configuration and i'll do it but no way am i touching that shit
23:19:25 <elliott> also, because pikhq installed debian and it appears to be the path of least resistance atm
23:19:38 <elliott> "Maxell's new ultra-micro 2½-inch floppy disk holds 500K of unformatted data and is planned for use in laptop computers and other selected markets."
23:19:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm going to sleep shortly
23:19:56 <elliott> Vorpal: before you do, excellent thing would be to write bochs config!
23:20:05 <elliott> "Looking similar to a standard 31/2-inch microfloppy"
23:20:11 <elliott> Yikes, a 15 1/2 inch microfloppy!
23:20:21 <Vorpal> elliott, Wednesday will be fun
23:20:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, with it being so... Wednesdayy.
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23:20:53 <elliott> 300th day of the year you know!
23:21:10 <elliott> no idea why you think it's interesting :P
23:21:41 <Vorpal> elliott, mandatory hands-on course about driving in slippery conditions
23:22:23 <Vorpal> elliott, do you have that in UK?
23:22:45 <fizzie> I went to one, was stopped in a queue waiting for my turn, and another participant rear-ended my father's car that I was using. :p
23:22:59 <fizzie> (With very low speed, though.)
23:22:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, they provide the cars here
23:23:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, can't think of why they do that
23:23:52 <Vorpal> "The basic principle of CD ROMs is similar to the audio CD. A low-power laser beam reads microscopic pits that have been burned into the disc itself. These pits—representing a series of ones and zeros—contain the data that in a magnetic medium would be formed by the arrangement of magnetic particles. The 4.7-inch CD-ROM discs contain a whopping 550 megabytes of data per disc. The first applications
23:23:52 <Vorpal> are likely to be encyclopedias, such as the nine-million-word Academic American Encyclopedia, a 21-volume reference work that fits on just a quarter of one CD-ROM disc."
23:24:28 <fizzie> Sounds strange. Though we did have some trouble in getting the anti-lock brakes and other such things disengaged from the very heterogenous set of cars, for that part where they wanted to show us how things go without such trickery.
23:25:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, I couldn't use my parents car then, it has anti-locking on unconditionally
23:26:17 <fizzie> So did many of those if you just consider the regular "user interface"; some still could be disabled by disconnecting the right fuses from under the hood.
23:26:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, they did that? Won't that void warranty?
23:27:03 <fizzie> Not usually, no. Maybe with modern enough cars it would.
23:27:35 <fizzie> Though if it's listed in the owner's guide, I guess it should be okay.
23:28:19 <fizzie> The car I used had originally come from Germany, so all the books and such were only in German. They were a bit... undecipherable.
23:28:55 <fizzie> I speak the language a little (very little), but had no clue about the terminology used.
23:33:17 <cpressey> "Frankly, GNOME needs to improve its documentation. Just bringing forward the fact that they are volunteers, doesn’t suffice."
23:37:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, I'm using gnome and I never looked in a manual for it
23:38:27 <Vorpal> I mean, there is no need. it is intuitive and "user friendly", almost too much so
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23:40:28 <pikhq> elliott: Is there a Grey Mist SLiM theme?
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23:46:36 <Ilari> Hah: "Seeing that rapidssl is still very much alive, I think we can safely say PR is not a valid detergend against running an uhm, less then optimally secure CA.".
23:48:05 <Ilari> I think it should be "deterrent".
23:48:17 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:48:40 <Ilari> Wonder what that "uhm, less than optimally secure" means...
23:48:59 <Ilari> Most probably, something double-plus ungood... :-)
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23:50:20 <Vorpal> Ilari, they were the CA used for the (in)famous md5 "exploit"
23:50:36 <Vorpal> Ilari, or do you mean something more recent?
23:50:59 <elliott> rapidssl are still in business after that? lol
23:51:08 <Ilari> That X.509 trust stuff is a giant mess... Check the number of CAs trusted by browsers. And that's just the tip of the iceberg...
23:51:25 <elliott> it's only useful for encryption
23:51:30 <elliott> and the default browser setup means you can't use it for that
23:51:32 <Vorpal> elliott, Ilari http://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/rogue-ca/
23:51:38 <elliott> because OMG SELF-SIGNED CERTIFICATE FUUCK
23:52:13 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:53:00 <Vorpal> elliott, x.509 can be useful for auth. if you only trust a single root CA. not for general use. But for something like a local root ca for x.509 certs for ipsec VPN tunnels to your company
23:53:07 <Ilari> There are N+1 sub-CAs. 1) Each is _omnipotent_ with regards to X.509 auth system. 2) _Nobody_ knows how much of those there are. 3) Some of known ones do not seem to be trustworthy.
23:53:14 <elliott> Vorpal: but i mean -- on the internet.
23:53:36 <elliott> Vorpal: what browsers *should* do is drop all certificate bullshit and just use https for encryption
23:53:41 <elliott> of course what they should do is get a proper auth system
23:53:44 <elliott> but that's waay more complicated
23:53:50 <elliott> because it involves something more than paying to say you're someone!
23:54:16 <elliott> of course browsers are stupid and insist that just relying on 458734895793485 shitty root CAs and firing HUGE RED SIRENS for any website which dares to use anything else is a great idea
23:54:27 <elliott> do you trust verisign? i sure as hell don't
23:54:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I would probably trust cacert more than verisign. At least cacert checks that you are able to prod the domain at will iirc
23:54:40 <Ilari> Well, there is working group being formed to define how to use DNSSEC for TLS authentication.
23:54:49 <elliott> Vorpal: PSHT CACERT IS LIKE, COMMUNIST
23:55:32 <Ilari> Verisign is far from the worst stuff in (sub-)CA pool.
23:55:37 <elliott> Vorpal: "In light of the number of people having issues with making up a password we have the following suggestions:
23:55:37 <elliott> To get a password that will work, we suggest the following example: Fr3d Sm|7h
23:55:41 <elliott> Vorpal: that initial wording is terrible
23:55:43 <elliott> from the cacert registration form
23:55:52 <elliott> Vorpal: it makes me think "wait, you suggest I use that as my actual password?!"
23:56:04 <elliott> (and someone less sceptical than me might just...)
23:56:38 <Vorpal> elliott, someone that stupid shouldn't deal with x.509
23:56:57 <elliott> Vorpal: hell, it confused me for a minute
23:57:03 <elliott> even the text after doesn't clarify it
23:57:06 <Vorpal> elliott, is it the same when refreshing?
23:57:13 <elliott> in no way does the above thing say "Use this example to *make up your own password*"
23:57:25 <elliott> i mean obviously anyone would double-take
23:57:27 <Vorpal> elliott, mail them and suggest a change
23:57:55 <pikhq> Darn it I managed to run into a problem.
23:57:56 <Ilari> And there's also no accountability. One can pretty freely do bad-CA attacks and not get caught...
23:58:04 <elliott> pikhq: I might be able to help.
23:58:31 <pikhq> elliott: fglrx-modules-dkms won't build.
23:58:43 <Vorpal> mozilla.org uses an invalid security certificate.
23:58:43 <Vorpal> The certificate is only valid for *.mozilla.org
23:58:46 <elliott> pikhq: Why are you building it? Isn't there a binary package?
23:58:55 <elliott> Vorpal: doesn't happen for me; where do you get that?
23:59:04 <Vorpal> elliott, https://mozilla.org
23:59:10 <elliott> Vorpal: And Chrome too. Nice.
23:59:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is because the wildcard
23:59:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Then it redirects to http:// X-D
23:59:28 <Vorpal> elliott, you need a separate cert for *.foo.org and foo.org
23:59:33 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, dkms is how third-party modules work on Debian. It automatically builds the module package.
23:59:36 <elliott> Vorpal: fuck that, also :P
23:59:40 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, right, yes, that.
23:59:50 <elliott> pikhq: You can flood it in /msg if you want.
23:59:53 <elliott> I did use to use fglrx! :P
23:59:56 <pikhq> /var/lib/dkms/fglrx/10-7/build/kcl_ioctl.c:196: error: implicit declaration of function ‘compat_alloc_user_space’
00:00:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about module-assistant?
00:00:08 <elliott> pikhq: Did you know that fglrx sucks ass?
00:00:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, I seen that used instead of dkms
00:00:20 <elliott> pikhq: I don't suppose radeon works with your card? :P
00:00:23 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, yes. Hand me money to get a better graphics card.
00:00:33 <elliott> pikhq: I don't suppose radeon works with your card? :P >_>
00:00:57 <Vorpal> elliott, the problem with debian is that for anything related to building packages there are 5 different standard systems. At least
00:01:41 <pikhq> Ah, found the bug.
00:02:06 <elliott> Vorpal: It's been unified a lot semi-recently.
00:02:18 <Ilari> TLS would be way more secure if people acutally used its capabilities... :-)
00:02:45 <Vorpal> elliott, just look at the various system to apply patches. Or the various ways to build kernel modules
00:03:09 <elliott> Vorpal: They've got surprisingly few for being continuously maintained since 1993.
00:03:31 <Vorpal> elliott, still enough to be confusing to the casual package compiler
00:03:35 <pikhq> Fuck it. Let's see about getting Radeon working.
00:03:57 <Vorpal> Ilari, what is that about "Extended Validation" you sometimes see
00:04:15 <elliott> pikhq: Didn't you find the bug? :P
00:04:33 <Ilari> At least presently extended validation is more secure...
00:04:33 <elliott> pikhq: You probably just need a more recent fglrx.
00:04:39 <elliott> pikhq: In my experience, packages lag behind ... a lot.
00:04:41 <elliott> pikhq: What card do you have?
00:05:00 <pikhq> elliott: I'd rather not have to futz with installing a single package from Sid.
00:05:07 <elliott> pikhq: The official AMD package.
00:05:15 <pikhq> elliott: It's a Radeon HD 3200.
00:05:17 <Vorpal> Ilari, how does it help?
00:05:24 <Ilari> For fun, someone posted to one list sightly edited (normal) CPS (from early 90s) and sightly edited modern EV CPS and then asked to guess which was which...
00:05:27 <elliott> pikhq: http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/linux/Pages/radeon_linux.aspx?type=2.4.1&product=2.4.1.3.42&lang=English
00:05:50 <pikhq> Which is an R600...
00:05:55 <Ilari> Vorpal: Less CAs to issue bad certificates. :-)
00:06:00 <elliott> pikhq: I did select 64-bit, interestingly it says x86 but whatever.
00:06:07 <elliott> pikhq: But, uh, it doesn't look like a Debian package.
00:06:10 <elliott> pikhq: Yeaaah I'd try radeon.
00:06:10 <Ilari> Vorpal: And supposedly better verification...
00:06:14 <Vorpal> Ilari, so the browser limits who it trust with EV?
00:06:53 <pikhq> elliott: I have no idea how to switch which driver X11 uses in this new, Xorg.conf-less world.
00:07:05 <elliott> pikhq: You, uh, haha, don't really.
00:07:08 <elliott> pikhq: Just install radeon and not fglrx.
00:07:14 <elliott> pikhq: It should work automagicaly.
00:07:18 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:07:20 <Ilari> The entiere chain has to be marked valid for EV for EV validation to succeed.
00:07:40 <Ilari> And not all root certs are (to say nothing about sub-certs).
00:08:10 <pikhq> elliott: How do you tell which driver *is* being used?
00:08:55 <elliott> pikhq: It's usually pretty prominent.
00:09:04 <elliott> pikhq: Just grep whichever drivers you think it might be :P
00:09:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, glxinfo | grep vendor
00:10:34 <pikhq> Back in a bit, then.
00:11:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:12:48 <Ilari> But some people do expect the EV criteria to slide (race to the bottom in same manner as has happened to DV certs).
00:13:48 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:14:13 <elliott> the headquarters of all piks
00:14:52 <pikhq> Seems that you need to install "evil" firmware for it to actually accelerate stuff.
00:15:18 <pikhq> ... What the hell, it's not accelerating GL.
00:15:27 <pikhq> It claims to be but there's no way it actually is.
00:16:18 <elliott> pikhq: What, glxgears going slowly?
00:16:21 <elliott> Protip: Don't use glxgears.
00:16:33 <elliott> pikhq: Try something more real.
00:16:42 <pikhq> I was using mplayer -vo gl
00:16:52 <pikhq> Aaand now I see the logs.
00:17:05 <pikhq> [dri] This chipset requires a kernel module version of 1.17.0,
00:17:05 <pikhq> [dri] but the kernel reports a version of 2.0.0.[dri] If using legacy modesetting, upgrade your kernel.
00:17:08 <pikhq> [dri] If using kernel modesetting, make sure your module is
00:17:10 <pikhq> [dri] loaded prior to starting X, and that this driver was built
00:17:13 <pikhq> [dri] with support for KMS.
00:17:15 <pikhq> [dri] Disabling DRI.
00:17:42 <elliott> pikhq: Just download radeon from AMD.
00:17:47 <elliott> pikhq: Just download fglrx from AMD.
00:17:51 <elliott> Surely it can't be that bad.
00:18:07 <elliott> pikhq: Even if it does just have an installer, you can use checkinstall. :P
00:18:35 <elliott> pikhq: And, uh, yeah, Debian is great when you're not trying proprietary stuff... and the open-source graphics drivers suck immensely.
00:18:42 <elliott> pikhq: LOL@everyone who uses anything that isn't intel
00:19:03 <pikhq> Just. GAH. THE PAIN AGONY AND STUPID.
00:19:11 <pikhq> ESPECIALLY THE STUPID.
00:19:41 <elliott> pikhq: In Debian's defence, it totally isn't their fault.
00:19:47 <pikhq> elliott: No, this actually is.
00:20:06 <elliott> pikhq: Isn't it radeons's?
00:20:15 <pikhq> elliott: They built the X driver with a need for kernel modesetting and the kernel without kernel modesetting.
00:20:26 <elliott> pikhq: Pretty sure the kernel has KMS...
00:20:31 <elliott> <pikhq> [dri] If using kernel modesetting, make sure your module is
00:20:31 <elliott> <pikhq> [dri] loaded prior to starting X, and that this driver was built
00:20:31 <elliott> <pikhq> [dri] with support for KMS.
00:21:11 <Vorpal> <Ilari> But some people do expect the EV criteria to slide (race to the bottom in same manner as has happened to DV certs). <-- DV?
00:21:25 <elliott> pikhq: It'll be a package.
00:21:30 <elliott> pikhq: aptitude search linux | grep kms
00:21:36 <Ilari> Domain Validated (the ordinary kind).
00:22:27 * elliott has never heard of big/little-endianness being referred to as "byte-sex"...
00:22:34 <elliott> But http://www.winehq.org/myths#only_x86 does!
00:23:13 <pikhq> Okay, never mind, it is *certainly* loading the KMS version of the Radeon module.
00:23:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Holy carp -- linux 0.01 isn't under GPL.
00:24:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Although its "license" is terribly unclear; I can't even tell whether it's viral or not.
00:24:07 <elliott> Oh, wait, yes it is. Probably.
00:24:53 <elliott> does anyone understand why ubuntu christian edition and the like exist?
00:25:17 <elliott> other than a really warped centring of your life around your religion? (ok, so that's a "reasonable" thing to do if you take religion literally, but not in the watered-down half-beliefs we have today)
00:25:33 <elliott> Vorpal: also ubuntu muslim edition! SORRY, they renamed it "Sabily"
00:25:36 <Vorpal> "ubuntu christian edition" <--- duuude this is October, not April
00:25:39 <elliott> it means "My Way" in TERRORIST LANGUAGE.
00:25:46 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Sabily-menu.png
00:25:49 <elliott> Pre-installed Islamic software!
00:25:50 -!- catseye has joined.
00:25:54 <elliott> Totally Islamic green colour screen!
00:26:07 <elliott> Automatic DDoSing of Salman Rushdie's website!
00:26:54 <elliott> Vorpal: http://ubuntuce.com/
00:27:04 <elliott> note: CE stands for Christian Edition, not AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
00:27:39 <elliott> http://christianubuntu.blogspot.com/ <-- And here's a mockery of it!
00:27:43 <elliott> "In Ubuntu Christian Edition the mount command calls the sermon script. Ensuring you always get a sermon on the mount."
00:27:49 <elliott> "Ubuntu Christian Edition is Three in One... Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu Christian Edition"
00:27:59 <elliott> "Ubuntu Christian Edition 7.04 will be called "Chaste Fawn"" <-- win
00:28:17 <Vorpal> <elliott> note: CE stands for Christian Edition, not too! <-- that is AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
00:28:27 <elliott> "For 40 days before Easter, Ubuntu Christian Edition works in text mode only."
00:28:36 <Vorpal> elliott, cursor went spare
00:28:38 <Vorpal> <elliott> note: CE stands for Christian Edition, not AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE <-- that is AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE too
00:28:40 <elliott> "What are you giving up for lent?" "X11!" "You're meant to give up something you *like*."
00:28:43 <Vorpal> was what I *meant* to type
00:29:21 <Vorpal> elliott, joke right? This is like the "getafirstlife" website right?
00:29:29 <pikhq> elliott: So, the actual from-ATI driver then.
00:29:29 <elliott> http://christianubuntu.blogspot.com/ is a joke
00:29:32 <elliott> http://ubuntuce.com/ is not
00:29:53 <elliott> pikhq: Even though checkinstall is a bit urgh. But, yeah.
00:30:17 <elliott> About dialogue for Gnome's Wanda the Fish panel applet: "Wanda has no use what-so-ever. It only takes up disk space and compilation time, and if loaded it also takes up precious panel space and memory. Anybody found using it should be promptly sent for a psychiatric evaluation."
00:30:37 <elliott> It does run a command when clicked, though!
00:31:50 <elliott> Vorpal: In Ubuntu Christian Edition, configuring your network card to promiscuous mode is forbidden.
00:31:57 <elliott> Okay, that needs... tightening up.
00:32:14 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a little fish that swims backwards and forth in a tiny 8-frame animation on your panel.
00:32:14 <Vorpal> elliott, looks dead: http://ubuntuce.com/download.htm
00:32:23 <elliott> When you hover over it, you see "Wanda the Fortune Teller".
00:32:27 <elliott> When you click it, it runs fortune.
00:32:28 <Vorpal> thank (hah) god for it being dead
00:32:35 <elliott> Vorpal: But Sabily is alive!
00:34:29 <elliott> Vorpal: You know, I have a friend who has Yggdrasil.
00:34:38 <elliott> I think he was going to upload it at one point...
00:34:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:34:47 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8d/Yggdrasil-linux-summer-94.JPG
00:35:00 -!- augur has joined.
00:35:22 <elliott> "A beta release was made on 18 February 1993.[4].[7] The beta's cost was US$50. LGX's beta release in 1993 contained the 0.99.5 version of the Linux kernel, along with other software from GNU and X.[7] By 22 August 1993, the Yggdrasil company had sold over 3100 copies of the LGX beta distribution.[8]
00:35:22 <elliott> The production release version carried a pricetag of US$99."
00:35:37 <elliott> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/yggdrasil/
00:35:44 <elliott> I GUESS WE DO NOT NEED MY FRIEND AFTER ALL.
00:35:52 <elliott> He switched to Slackware quickly anyway.
00:36:06 <elliott> He also has a NeXT box of some sort, the lucky bastard.
00:36:20 <elliott> Vorpal: "MCC Interim Linux was a Linux distribution first released by Owen Le Blanc of the Manchester Computing Centre (MCC), part of the University of Manchester, England) in February 1992. MCC Interim Linux has the distinction of being the first Linux distribution capable of being independently installed on a computer.[1]"
00:36:25 <elliott> pikhq: SLS wasn't the first, then.
00:36:47 <elliott> "Prior to its first release, the closest approximation to a Linux distribution had been H J Lu's "Boot-root" floppies. These were two 5¼" diskettes consisting of the kernel and the minimum tools required to get started. So minimal were these tools that to be able to boot from a hard drive required editing its master boot record with a hex editor.[4]"
00:37:03 <elliott> omg i just realised XFree86
00:38:32 <elliott> pikhq: So wait, how did you assemble the USB stick?
00:38:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you got that only now?
00:38:49 <Vorpal> elliott, this is like the largest wooosh of this channel ever :P
00:39:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I thought it was "Free X running on the 86 platform"... since, like, 86 was quite a common suffix for x86 stuff.
00:39:09 <elliott> The pronunciation pun... nope, never realised.
00:39:13 <pikhq> elliott: I made a FAT filesystem, syslinux'd it, copied the vmlinux, initrd.img, and the iso onto it, made an appropriate syslinux.cfg, and booted.
00:39:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it was intended to be read both ways
00:39:33 <elliott> pikhq: Care to tell me where I get the vmlinux and initrd.img from? :P Is it the... the hd-media thing?
00:39:56 <elliott> pikhq: Could you give me your syslinux.cfg? I've never made one before >_>
00:40:03 <elliott> pikhq: Also, did the... tarred thing not work?
00:40:14 <pikhq> elliott: It seems that this creates a not-installable package.
00:40:18 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinfoil_Hat_Linux
00:40:21 <pikhq> elliott: I didn't bother.
00:40:26 <pikhq> The syslinux.cfg, I don't recall.
00:40:33 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway this woooosh is so big that it covers almost all of the wooshing ever done in this channel. Meaning you can mathematically ignore any woooshing done against me :P
00:40:34 <elliott> Don't you have it plugged in? >_>
00:40:42 <elliott> Vorpal: It's not *that* big :P
00:40:49 <elliott> I've never heard anyone pronounce it, after all.
00:40:52 <Vorpal> elliott, worth a try though :P
00:41:01 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: It seems that this creates a not-installable package.
00:41:04 <elliott> pikhq: Checkinstall automatically installs it.
00:41:12 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, and it fails to install that package.
00:41:29 <elliott> pikhq: | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us
00:41:38 <elliott> pikhq: 2>&1 | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us
00:42:05 <pikhq> elliott: Sooo. This sucks balls.
00:42:19 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: 2>&1 | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' sprunge.us
00:42:30 <elliott> pikhq: srsly, you're not the only user of these cards, there will be a solution :P
00:43:01 <pikhq> elliott: THERE IS A BUG REPORT ON IT AND HAS BEEN FOR A MONTH.
00:43:09 <elliott> pikhq: YES BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO USE DEBIAN AND ALSO AMD CARDS
00:43:13 <pikhq> elliott: THE ONLY COMMENT IS "WELL, WORKS IN SID. CLOSING."
00:43:23 <elliott> pikhq: THERE IS A BACKPORTS REPOSITORY FWIW
00:43:39 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, beats Gentoo :P
00:44:08 <pikhq> No, the fucking video drivers build in Gentoo.
00:48:13 <elliott> Vorpal: it would so be easier to write a simple kernel than this shit :P
00:48:39 <Vorpal> elliott, <&2 would no do what you want, since it is an output stream
00:48:54 <Vorpal> elliott, you *can* pipe in an input stream of course
00:49:25 <elliott> "To install wine in Ubuntu Christian Edition, you simply enter apt-get install water."
00:49:52 <pikhq> elliott: Should I upgrade to sid?
00:50:08 <elliott> pikhq: Do you like having as much breakage as Gentoo but with actual new software?
00:50:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: Does not exist for testing!
00:50:14 <elliott> pikhq: If so, yes! If not, no.
00:50:14 * catseye takes deep breath and holds nose
00:50:17 -!- catseye has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:50:30 <pikhq> elliott: Well, currently testing is exhibiting breakage.
00:50:37 <pikhq> elliott: Nay, brain damage.
00:50:37 <elliott> pikhq: Try installing just the .deb from sid.
00:50:42 <elliott> pikhq: It works in... some cases.
00:50:53 <elliott> pikhq: http://packages.debian.org/sid/x11/
00:51:11 <pikhq> Well, the only thing I want is a dkms package. It may just work.
00:51:11 <Vorpal> elliott, do it from source deb, more reliable
00:51:37 <elliott> pikhq: You'll probably want to install whatever gives you "debuild(1)".
00:51:43 <elliott> That does all the crap for you.
00:51:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I never been able to install a newer binary .deb on ubuntu. With source debs it sometimes worked
00:51:51 <Vorpal> even worked quite often
00:52:31 <Vorpal> elliott, huh? I just do apt-get source foo && cd foo && fakeroot debian/rules binary
00:52:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought that was what you were supposed to do?
00:52:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yes. But debuild also does that for you :P
00:53:06 <Vorpal> elliott, it is of course a screwy build system, especially if you need to patch something
00:53:17 <Vorpal> elliott, because there are 10 different systems for patching series of patches
00:53:48 <elliott> - debuild: wrapper to build a package without having to su or worry
00:53:48 <elliott> about how to invoke dpkg to build using fakeroot. Also deals
00:53:49 <elliott> with common environment problems, umask etc. [fakeroot,
00:54:12 <Vorpal> elliott, 15 different automated tools for generating packages semi-automatically, of which 12 are broken enough that the result would be heavily patched by the package maintainer
00:54:33 <Vorpal> at least both arch and gentoo are consistent in how packaging is done
00:54:59 <elliott> Vorpal: There's only one way you're meant to do though really :P
00:55:08 <elliott> smaltalk.tgz 08-Sep-2003 15:09 321K
00:55:19 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a bit annoying when you need to patch the package :P
00:55:24 <Vorpal> elliott, it happens I had to do that
00:55:35 <elliott> | Copyright (C) 1990, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
00:55:40 <Vorpal> elliott, things were smaller back then
00:56:03 <elliott> they had fun we can only dream of
00:56:07 <elliott> they never got anything done
00:56:21 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean, trying to sort out the IRQs for the ISA cards?
00:56:33 <elliott> I... have never done that and hope to never have to.
00:56:42 <elliott> I meant more like the kernel being buggy and gcc sucking (well it still does but).
00:56:48 <Vorpal> elliott, nor have I, but I heard about that
00:56:54 <Vorpal> it had to be done sometimes
00:57:14 <Vorpal> elliott, ISA was very much not pnp
00:57:33 <elliott> It's sad how badly Linux/GNU/etc. have gone :(
00:57:47 <elliott> Sure, they're all fundamentally terribly designed, but they could be a hell of a lot more fun,
00:57:59 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean, more ISA buses
00:58:04 <elliott> Somewhere along the line someone decided to stop trying to do things differently from Windows and Mac OS.
00:58:31 <Vorpal> elliott, TIME TO WORK ON elliottOS?
00:58:41 <Vorpal> (not caps because I tab completed and was lazy)
00:58:51 <elliott> Vorpal: elliottOS isn't even intended to be developed right now :P
00:59:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I have to go through Mitosis first!
00:59:07 <Vorpal> elliott, good point. It is intended to be planned
00:59:19 <elliott> Hell, I haven't planned anything.
00:59:36 <Vorpal> you could call it that
00:59:45 <Vorpal> plan10 would be better
00:59:51 <Vorpal> "because the 9th one didn't work"
00:59:57 <elliott> Vorpal: It's the platonic perfect OS. There is no possible way I will name it after anything else.
01:00:01 -!- catseye has joined.
01:00:05 <elliott> Even naming it something that's a word is questionable!
01:00:24 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you referring to?
01:00:40 <Vorpal> elliott, oh catseye is playing with that?
01:00:51 <elliott> Vorpal: He's trying to install it as his OS.
01:00:54 <catseye> You don't PLAY with NETBSD.
01:01:05 <elliott> catseye is a hardcore BSD mothafucka.
01:01:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> catseye is a hardcore BSD mothafucka. <-- aka, playing with it
01:01:29 <catseye> That sounds much less stupid.
01:02:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Dammit, now I want to make a nice little Unix kernel.
01:02:16 <elliott> Nothing big and professional like gnu...
01:02:20 <Vorpal> elliott, UNIX!? why on earth
01:02:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Because it's like linux 0.01 except I don't have to get Minix working!
01:02:47 <elliott> And I get to BUSYCODE (like busywork but for code -- protected mode, gdt, etc.)
01:02:56 <Vorpal> elliott, would 0.1 be so bad?
01:02:57 <catseye> FMOMNBUWNS may or may not be unix, we're not sure.
01:03:04 <Vorpal> elliott, tried it yet?
01:03:12 <elliott> Vorpal: I might be installing Debian for chrissakes!
01:03:16 <elliott> I'd like to decide that first :P
01:03:28 <elliott> Vorpal: ... no, on this :P
01:03:51 <elliott> I sure hope ~/Code fits into RAM.
01:03:57 <elliott> Because, my migration plan:
01:04:09 <elliott> - Install Debian, wiping out Ubuntu.
01:04:14 <Vorpal> elliott, going from ubuntu?
01:04:23 <Vorpal> elliott, what is wrong with ubuntu?
01:04:26 <elliott> depends if i can get a patched freetype :D
01:04:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I got bored of it! Also, uh, uh.
01:04:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you have separate /home
01:04:41 <elliott> I have software ADHD, dude.
01:04:54 <elliott> And I never will, so nyah :P
01:04:57 <Vorpal> elliott, now you realise why you should have had that
01:05:05 <Vorpal> elliott, *power failure while installing*
01:05:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Wait, I have a USB stick.
01:05:10 <elliott> I can just copy it onto there.
01:05:19 <elliott> In fact, it's the USB stick that'll have Debian on it :P
01:05:19 <Vorpal> elliott, unless you use that for install media
01:05:25 <Vorpal> elliott, large enough?
01:05:26 <elliott> Vorpal: It's the media holding the installer...
01:05:29 <elliott> But it's not what I'm installing to.
01:05:43 <elliott> Anything bigger than a few kbs would be something I could just redownload :P
01:06:05 <Vorpal> elliott, don't forget ~/.ssh if you use such stuff
01:06:12 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't ssh anywhere atm.
01:06:12 <pikhq> elliott: This single look into Debian's build environment is fucking nuts.
01:06:14 <Vorpal> elliott, and probably ~/.mozilla for firefox
01:06:28 <pikhq> elliott: Still fucking nuts what it's doing.
01:06:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't use Firefox. And I'm not really concerned about my Chrome profile.
01:06:34 <pikhq> elliott: And I though RPM was nuts.
01:06:37 <Vorpal> elliott, bookmarks and such
01:06:45 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, dpkg is way better than rpm, it's just everything on top of it that's insane :P
01:06:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't have any bookmarks :)
01:06:57 <Vorpal> started raid array check
01:06:58 <elliott> I'm sort of a neo-pseudo-luddite in my extreme post-modernity.
01:07:04 <Vorpal> forgot it is that night in the week
01:07:05 <elliott> Everything is impermanent!
01:07:15 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't have that problem, I don't have RAID! Ha ha ha!
01:07:18 <pikhq> Now where does it put the debs?
01:07:24 <elliott> That's alright though, because I don't do anything worth backing up.
01:07:28 <elliott> And if I did, it'd be on the web somewher.
01:07:41 <elliott> (The Linus Torvalds backup system)
01:07:46 <pikhq> ... No, seriously, where?
01:07:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, in the parent dir?
01:07:59 <Sgeo> Javascript syntax for anonymous functions is fugly
01:08:03 <Sgeo> But at least it exists
01:08:03 <pikhq> That's... Retarded.
01:08:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't know how debbuild is invoked, I used the manual way
01:08:22 <pikhq> elliott: Yup, everything on top of dpkg is nuts.
01:08:41 <catseye> Fun fact: there is no beautiful syntax for anonymous functions.
01:09:04 <Vorpal> catseye, lambda in scheme?
01:09:11 <Sgeo> Haskell's is nice. C#'s is nice.
01:09:15 <Sgeo> (Well, one of C#'s)
01:09:17 <Vorpal> catseye, I like the haskell syntax too
01:09:24 <Sgeo> Smalltalk's is nice
01:09:30 <Sgeo> And rather essential
01:09:44 <Vorpal> catseye, I have to admit that the erlang fun syntax is quite onerous
01:09:52 <Sgeo> Well, actually, Smalltalk's could be better, I guess
01:09:59 <elliott> Smalltalk's is nice. Very nice. Perfect even.
01:10:04 <Vorpal> (note that is "fun" as in a keyword, not "fun" as in funny)
01:10:46 <Sgeo> How is C#'s much different from ... Oh
01:10:47 <elliott> Now which one would you find yourself using all the time?
01:10:54 <Sgeo> Right, C#'s doesn't have the indicator thing
01:10:55 <elliott> Which would you find bothersome?
01:10:55 <catseye> Vorpal: that's what makes it a "fun fact" HAHAHAHA
01:10:57 <Vorpal> elliott, the latter looks like haskell without () ?
01:11:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Haskell doesn't have ().
01:11:07 <elliott> You just use that when it's an argument to group it.
01:11:14 <Vorpal> elliott, yes that is what I meant
01:11:15 <elliott> The syntax is just \args -> expr.
01:11:18 <pikhq> Well, got this installed properly...
01:11:21 <elliott> What I'm saying is: The Lisp one gets hugely in the way.
01:11:23 <catseye> elliott: Are you going to be here until 7AM again?
01:11:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you usually need it for lambdas though
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01:12:03 <Vorpal> elliott, lisp syntax almost always gets in the way
01:12:12 <Vorpal> elliott, while awesome it is often too verbose
01:12:23 <Sgeo> delegate(){} (another C# syntax) is verbose. function(){} (Javascript's) is verbose
01:12:30 <elliott> Anyone who says that S-Expressions are the perfect syntax is deluding themselves.
01:12:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I said it before, but a joke can never be repeated too many times: I prefer a syntax between lisp and perl
01:12:55 <Sgeo> Is there worse than Javascript's? Javascript's just a bit verbose
01:12:57 <elliott> Ruby's block syntax is nice: {foo} or {|x,y,z| foo} or even do ... end or do |x,y,z| ... end.
01:13:10 <elliott> The latter two let you use stuff that takes lambdas as block control structures.
01:13:13 <elliott> The former two are just nice.
01:13:14 <Vorpal> elliott, the haskell syntax for it is nice
01:13:24 <elliott> By making them "blocks" and functions can only take one.
01:13:25 <catseye> Sexps are the ultimate as an "intermediate format" for syntax. People who prefer to write in intermediate formats ain't human.
01:13:31 <elliott> Because it's not a real first-class argument.
01:13:35 <Sgeo> They're not even objec.. right
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01:13:46 <Sgeo> I suppose that's for syntactical reasons
01:13:47 <Vorpal> elliott, we need m-expressions
01:13:57 <elliott> Vorpal: m-exprs aren't that good :P
01:14:07 <Sgeo> What's the worst?
01:15:25 <elliott> catseye: Ehh, I'm... yeah.
01:15:32 <elliott> At least it has parts of speech.
01:15:40 <elliott> Jot takes the cake for being the most useless.
01:15:45 <Vorpal> catseye, google turns up nothing useful
01:16:12 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.basis.netii.net/ursala/
01:16:24 <elliott> %np+~command.options.&h.keyword.&iNC; -+
01:16:24 <elliott> ~&iNC+ file$[contents: --<''>+ %nLP*=; * '<'%='[ '+ ','%=', '+ '>'%=' ]']+ ~&rSSs+ nleq-<&l*rFlhthPXPSPS,
01:16:24 <elliott> ~&i&& ~&lNrNCXX; ~&rr->rl %tLnLtXLLWXMk+ ^/~&l ~&lrrhrSiF4E?/~&rrlPlCrtPX ~&r; ^|/~& ^|T\~& -+
01:16:24 <elliott> -<&l^|*DlrTS/~& ~&iiDlSzyCK9hlPNNXXtCS,
01:16:25 <elliott> ^jrX/~& ~&rZK20lrpblPOlrEkPK13lhPK2; ~&i&& nleq$-&lh+-,
01:16:27 <elliott> ^/~&NNXS+iota -<&l+ ~&plll2llr2lrPrNCCCCNXS*=irSxPSp+ ^H/block iota; *iiK0 ^/~& sum+-
01:16:34 <elliott> Vorpal: The reference manual is beyond amazing: http://www.basis.netii.net/ursala/manual.pdf
01:16:37 <elliott> Every page is a new "wow".
01:16:40 <catseye> Google: reducing you to the masses, one seamless "typo" correction at a time.
01:16:46 <Vorpal> elliott, this looks like J syntax on steroids in unreadability
01:16:56 <elliott> Vorpal: J syntax is perfectly logical and comprehensible. This is not.
01:17:08 <elliott> Vorpal: This is postfix except that commands can actually cause N previous commands to be as if in parentheses.
01:17:14 <elliott> It's ... even I don't understand it.
01:17:17 <catseye> The parts of speech just make it worse!
01:17:53 <catseye> It's like when you're hearing someone speak German and suddently you pick out a borrowing like "Hum-vee"
01:17:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> It's ... even I don't understand it. <-- well.. you don't understand agda either iirc?
01:18:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, not the stdlib code!
01:18:34 <Vorpal> wait, why does the manual start discussing FSMs
01:18:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, it's a "paper"-style thing.
01:19:00 <Vorpal> elliott, that is not a good reference manual though
01:19:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, syntax isn't very important in a theoretical language.
01:19:12 * catseye going to try NetBSD again - someone suggested disabling ACPI for FreeBSD, so... there's a chance
01:19:16 <Vorpal> elliott, no implementations?
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01:19:34 <Vorpal> oh read that as "hypothetical"
01:20:07 <Vorpal> ˆHs\ ̃&hS *+ ˆ|ˆ( ̃&,*+ ˆ|/ ̃&)+ -:+ *= ̃&nS; ˆDrlXS/nleq$- ̃&,
01:20:07 <Vorpal> ˆ= ˆH\ ̃& *=+ |=+ ==++ ̃ ̃bm+ *mS+ -:+ ̃&nSiiDPSLrlXS+-
01:20:08 <elliott> "I’m a big fan of C, as all real programmers are, but I still wouldn’t want to use it for anything too complicated."
01:20:12 <elliott> I would like to nominate this for worst footnote ever.
01:20:34 <elliott> "The command to invoke the compiler is fun." -- because it's so much fun.
01:21:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm on that page and the formatting makes it clear what was meant
01:21:22 <elliott> I wasn't even intending to make a formatting joke.
01:21:30 <pikhq> Smooth fullscreen Flash video.
01:21:46 <Vorpal> I never had problems with that on my system
01:22:06 <Vorpal> $ fun --main=" ̃&nSiiDPSLrlXS" --decompile
01:22:20 <elliott> $ fun cad sys --main="optimized sys" --cast %nsSWnASAS
01:22:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Since all data compiles to what amounts to a list of list | [], the only way to interpret data in any way is to cast it explicitly to a certain type.
01:22:39 <elliott> That cast argument is... a type.
01:22:55 <Vorpal> elliott, is the type a list of list too?
01:23:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Presumably it compiles down to that.
01:23:17 <elliott> Vorpal: (or else isn't actually an ursala expression; dunno)
01:23:38 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, so it uses church numerals or something for representing numbers?
01:23:39 <elliott> pikhq: Do you know if you can get a patched freetype/fontconfig (I forget which) with the Ubuntu patches? :p
01:23:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Something like that.
01:23:49 <elliott> Vorpal: But I think it has "optimisations".
01:24:21 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, seriously. IT WORKS.
01:24:28 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: Do you know if you can get a patched freetype/fontconfig (I forget which) with the Ubuntu patches? :p
01:24:37 <pikhq> elliott: Not really.
01:24:45 <elliott> pikhq: I mean -- not one in the repos.
01:24:48 <pikhq> elliott: But DEAR GOD SMOOTH FULLSCREEN FLASH VIDEO.
01:24:55 <elliott> Yeah yeah I care about my text :<
01:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, are you certain this language is not an extremely sophisticated practical joke?
01:25:31 <pikhq> I am not noticing anything odd about the text rendering here.
01:25:45 <elliott> pikhq: That's because you don't have subpixel rendering on.
01:25:54 <Vorpal> elliott, how can anyone in earnest think that this is a good idea.
01:25:56 <elliott> pikhq: Then your eyes are simply broken.
01:25:58 <pikhq> I think it's already using the proper hinting.
01:26:05 <elliott> pikhq: There is obvious blue and red colour fringing that you are not perceiving.
01:26:12 <elliott> pikhq: It's not the hinting, it's the actual renderer.
01:26:22 <Vorpal> wait, I scrolled down a bit and suddenly it showed circuit diagrams
01:26:44 <pikhq> elliott: I am *definitely* not seeing fringing.
01:27:15 <elliott> fltk netcat pyadt pythoncard wl
01:27:18 <elliott> Woo, nothing worth preserving
01:27:36 <pikhq> Know a screenshot program?
01:27:40 <elliott> (I tend to not unpack my old ~/Codes on a new system until I use them.)
01:28:03 <elliott> pikhq: Basic usage: "scrot foo.png"; you can also add delays and restrict it to a window, etc.; see the manpage.
01:29:07 <elliott> pikhq: Remember when Xfce decided to imitate OS X for a release?
01:29:10 <elliott> http://www.xfce.org/images/about/screenshots/4.2-1.jpg
01:29:11 <elliott> http://www.xfce.org/images/about/screenshots/4.2-3.jpg
01:31:18 <Vorpal> elliott, the former or?
01:31:48 <Vorpal> elliott, the latter doesn't seem very OS Xish to me
01:32:11 <elliott> Dock-style launcher + in the second one, see any resemblance? http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/empty/macosx102.png
01:32:43 <elliott> pikhq: Any screenshot luck?
01:36:38 <pikhq> elliott: Sorry, I was crushing it from 3.6M to 56K.
01:36:42 <pikhq> http://filebin.ca/rvqnwc/screenshot.png
01:37:02 <elliott> pikhq: I sort of need a screenshot of black-on-white text to be able to tell.
01:37:07 <elliott> Inverted font rendering is weird.
01:37:24 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, you have it on full hinting.
01:37:32 <elliott> Yeah, you won't see the screwiness.
01:37:35 <elliott> pikhq: Try Slight hinting.
01:38:48 <pikhq> elliott: Okay then.
01:38:49 * Sgeo alarms at his tongue
01:39:16 <pikhq> So what you're telling me is that my preference for full hinting is a workaround because Freetype sucks?
01:39:56 <elliott> pikhq: Something like that :P
01:40:05 <elliott> pikhq: On the other hand, you get terrible distorted typography!
01:40:22 <pikhq> elliott: It is the only way to make Japanese fonts clearly readable that I have found.
01:40:26 <pikhq> Aside from bitmap fonts.
01:40:30 <elliott> pikhq: Takao looks lovely here on Ubuntu.
01:40:34 <elliott> pikhq: Go on, say some moonspeak.
01:40:51 <elliott> pikhq: Don't want to offer any more?
01:41:20 <elliott> pikhq: Share some moonspeak :P
01:41:41 <elliott> pikhq: Well, congrats. *That* is an unreadable blur.
01:41:49 <pikhq> Note, not readable anyways.
01:41:54 <elliott> pikhq: However, you could easily identify it as "unreadable blur". :P
01:42:05 <pikhq> It's an archaic character for "verbose".
01:42:26 <pikhq> Erm, no, that's not the one.
01:42:27 <elliott> pikhq: http://imgur.com/SebMI.png
01:42:34 <pikhq> That's the appearance of a dragon walking.
01:42:36 <elliott> pikhq: First one looks fine here, considering how low the resolution is.
01:42:45 <elliott> pikhq: What kind of fucking dragons do they have in Japan?
01:42:56 <pikhq> That's some astounding rendering there.
01:43:12 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, the only thing that renders fonts nicer than this is OS X.
01:43:34 <elliott> pikhq: Which is why I want the Ubuntu patches :P
01:43:38 <elliott> pikhq: But it's okay, I can always build my own.
01:43:39 <pikhq> I seriously have not been able to get it to look non-shitty without using full hinting and Meiryo.
01:43:47 <elliott> pikhq: This is with slight hinting and Takao.
01:43:59 <elliott> The non-Japanese font is Ubuntu Sans :P
01:44:12 <elliott> Also known as Trebuchet MS: The Slightly Different Lookalike!
01:44:37 <elliott> pikhq: I'm gonna boot Ubuntu now.
01:44:51 <elliott> pikhq: You will either see me soon or never.
01:45:28 <elliott> pikhq: While I install, enjoy this image of an Apple //e being bootstrapped using a current-generation MacBook Pro.
01:45:55 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevenf/4925237989/
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02:12:04 * Sgeo wants a browser that can easily change the rendering engine used in each tab
02:12:51 <Sgeo> My school's website might be set to use Gecko, other sites WebKit or Pesto
02:16:20 <branan> I don't know how easy it is to integrate Presto without mad hacks, since Opera is closed-source...
02:17:00 <branan> But certainly integrating webkit, gecko, and (on windows) trident *should* be possible
02:18:16 <branan> not that you'd ever want to use trident >_>
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02:20:42 <elliott> pikhq: I'm totally talking to you from lwm.
02:21:09 <elliott> pikhq: I should probably stop messing around and install Xfce.
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02:22:31 <catseye> it worked. you weren't here!
02:22:43 <elliott> catseye: I am here via logs!
02:23:02 <elliott> catseye: Okay, now use pkgsrc or the binary package manager to put Xfce on there and get away from Windows :P
02:24:04 <elliott> catseye: I've just got Debian installed! So I'm going to install Xfce now, bee are bee.
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02:29:55 <Sgeo> My prefered rendering engine attempt order might be Presto > WebKit > Gecko > Trident
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02:32:30 <elliott> pikhq: Xfce depends on HAL.
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02:34:39 * Sgeo hopes it's just being harmless
02:34:43 <Sgeo> Painful, but harmless, I hope
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02:49:06 <elliott> pikhq: Got Grey Mist to hand?
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02:51:02 <elliott> Anyone know what module to blacklist to SHUT THE FUCKING PC SPEAKER UP?
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02:55:18 <elliott> pikhq: Seriously though, Grey Mist :P
02:57:36 <calamari> Gregor: when I think I've completed my facebook page, I still have 5 images left.. what did I miss?
02:58:03 <Gregor> calamari: I don't know, they're hiding from me too :P
02:59:51 <elliott> pikhq: Bleh, it's so unpolished. :P
03:00:17 <elliott> Gregor: Midori should be speedy, right? It uses WebKit so presumably SquirrelFish Extreme.
03:01:30 <Gregor> elliott: Should be OK.
03:01:54 <elliott> Experience so far is exactly like previous Debian experiences, death by a thousand little niggles that Ubuntu doesn't have :P
03:01:57 <Gregor> elliott: JS speed is NOT WebSplat's chokepoint, so the fact that it uses SquirrelFish Extreme is nearly irrelevant.
03:02:08 <elliott> Gregor: It's slower than Chrome. Uh.
03:07:02 <elliott> Gregor: Woo Chromium ignores my fontconfig settings for no apparent reason
03:14:41 <pikhq> elliott: Grey Mist? Coming right up.
03:14:41 <pikhq> elliott: And, yeah, Chromium has always ignored fontconfig. VERY ANNOYING.
03:14:41 <pikhq> Lemme just install curl so my sprunge script works again...
03:14:49 <elliott> pikhq: All those messages came in at once.
03:14:56 <pikhq> elliott: http://sprunge.us/IIcN
03:15:44 <elliott> * Ping reply from pikhq: 46.58 second(s)
03:15:44 <elliott> * Ping reply from pikhq: ? second(s)
03:15:48 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, my cord got unplugged and it took me some time to notice.
03:16:02 <elliott> pikhq: Xfce focuses a window if you use the scroll wheel in it. HATE HATE HATE
03:16:06 <calamari> pikhq: wow, that link tries to open in gedit ... nice one!
03:16:35 <elliott> calamari's browser is configured terribly :P
03:16:40 <elliott> Only the eso-std pastebin did *that*.
03:16:58 <elliott> It does stuff like that, iirc.
03:18:07 <catseye> elliott: I could not get pkg_add to recursively add dependencies for me so I ended up fetching them all manually with ftp. Urrgh.
03:18:16 <elliott> catseye: Isn't it just -r?
03:18:25 <elliott> catseye: You *do* have the manual *right there*.
03:18:41 <elliott> catseye: Did you set the mirror variable?
03:18:49 <elliott> It tells you to in the guide~
03:18:59 <elliott> catseye: Did you sacrifice goats? HOW MANY?
03:19:20 <elliott> pikhq: What's the directory to the gtkrc again?
03:19:24 <elliott> ~/.themes/GreyMist/gtk-2.0/gtkrc?
03:19:36 <catseye> ah well, point was only: bbbare bbbones system setup for now.
03:20:04 <elliott> pikhq: Ew, the lack of menu padding makes the Xfce menu a bit ugly sometimes :P
03:20:14 * elliott sets the terminal to black on white.
03:20:28 <elliott> (Green cursor Xfce? Really?)
03:21:02 <elliott> pikhq: Do you know how to make the xfwm window border less WTFTHICK?
03:21:13 * elliott enables display compositing.
03:21:16 <elliott> Suddenly everything is smoother!
03:22:20 <elliott> pikhq: Settings -> Window Manager Tweaks -> Compositor -> [*] Enable display compositing. [ ] Show shadows under dock windows. Settings -> Panel -> Transparency: 0%.
03:22:26 <elliott> pikhq: This makes everything so much smoother.
03:23:52 <elliott> pikhq: Any ideas wrt WM border?
03:24:41 <elliott> pikhq: I'm working on Grey Mist 1.0. :P
03:25:25 <elliott> pikhq: You know how Grey Mist is like THAT CLOSE TO PERFECT?
03:25:28 <elliott> Totally makin' it perfect here.
03:28:35 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm. In the gtkrc, look for [xy]thickness. Can you set them to 2, change theme away, and change theme back? (This reloads it...) This makes one or two things bigger, namely the menu line and tabs and stuff. Just wondering what you think. It's a bit more space but it also seems a little less cramped. Open to input.
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03:41:40 <elliott> pikhq: My userbase is so enthusiastic :P
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03:45:51 <elliott> pikhq: NO WORK IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN GREY MIST
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03:51:19 <elliott> pikhq: Cool, I have no Japanese fonts.
03:51:37 <pikhq> elliott: But, romanised, "hi!"
03:51:56 <elliott> pikhq: I'm setting up Xfce: The Grey Mist Edition. :P
03:52:08 <pikhq> (no relation with the English "hi", which gets re-romanised as "hai!"
03:52:18 <pikhq> (which has no relation with the Japanese word "hai".)
03:52:26 <elliott> (which has no relation to your mom.)
03:52:39 <pikhq> (but all sorts of relations with yours.)
03:52:46 <elliott> pikhq: I have an empty panel to fill X_X
03:52:55 * elliott minimal height vertically-oriented panel!
03:53:21 <elliott> Sweet, the clock fucks that up :P
03:54:35 <elliott> pikhq: Dear god, I'm suffering from extreme panel proliferation :P
03:54:53 <elliott> catseye: Tell me you compiled it with pkgsrc.
03:55:23 <catseye> well,... to an extent it does
03:55:33 <elliott> catseye: apparently the bundled X is a bit... freaky
03:55:36 <elliott> catseye: and modular X from pkgsrc is better
03:55:47 <catseye> apparently i can switch away from X to this terminal screen, but I can't switch back
03:56:03 <catseye> well when i do the screen's al black
03:56:21 <elliott> pikhq: Why is it that nobody's come up with a better launcher/menu model than NeXTSTEP and yet people still do things that are worse?
03:58:14 <pikhq> elliott: Because, uh.
03:59:52 <elliott> pikhq: I just made system trays obsolete. Although not before breakfast! But I totally just did.
04:02:20 <elliott> pikhq: I have a hypothesis.
04:02:41 <elliott> pikhq: Screens should be hexagonal.
04:03:02 <catseye> to make the pixel addressing AWESOME?
04:03:29 <elliott> Although that is an advantage.
04:03:42 <catseye> btw, built-in ftp > ncftp3
04:04:08 <elliott> catseye: Best ftp: wget :P
04:04:15 <elliott> If you know what you're downloading, at least.
04:04:57 <elliott> catseye: pikhq: The actual answer is that with a hexagon, Fitts' Law would be way more useful.
04:05:09 <elliott> Instead of having four perfect targets, you'd have six.
04:05:22 <elliott> Upper-left, upper-right, left, right, bottom-left, bottom-right.
04:05:32 <elliott> So shoot your mouse diagonally or left/right, and you hit a target for sure.
04:06:35 <pikhq> elliott: But then we'd find some punk trying to make widescreen hexagons.
04:07:08 <pikhq> Or even an octagon.
04:07:10 <elliott> pikhq: I need your opinion: A taskbar without the titles (i.e. a row of icons), or a single icon that, when clicked, brings up a list of windows?
04:07:45 * catseye wonders if gmail works in links
04:09:18 <catseye> enough so that if i had to, i could use it
04:09:23 <elliott> <elliott> Is it... normal... for changing the GTK theme to make the Xfce panels go translucent, yet still be set at 0?
04:09:23 <elliott> <elliott> Setting them higher then 0 again fixes the problem.
04:09:23 <elliott> <freeki> happens to me all the time
04:09:25 <elliott> <elliott> That... is the strangest bug I have ever seen.
04:09:48 <elliott> pikhq: I am TOTALLY establishing CONSISTENT METAPHORS here.
04:10:01 <elliott> pikhq: Top-left: Hide. (On windows: iconify. On the screen: show desktop.)
04:12:49 <elliott> pikhq: Good god, it actually works.
04:12:56 <elliott> Who wants to know my HIDEOUS PANEL SYSTEM?
04:14:00 <catseye> it... does not come up when I start X
04:14:20 <elliott> catseye: how did you start X?
04:15:12 <catseye> no, it does now that i start x with 'xinit' and not 'X'
04:15:26 <elliott> catseye: the way to start x is "startx".
04:15:42 <elliott> catseye: as for mouse -- what kind is it?
04:16:06 <elliott> catseye: anything special or just a standard usb mouse?
04:16:07 <catseye> starx is better than xinit which is better than X!
04:16:15 <catseye> standard normal boring usb mouse
04:16:24 <elliott> they all call each other i think
04:16:32 <elliott> catseye: with startx does the horrible cursor show up on the screen?
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04:17:43 <elliott> <elliott> catseye: with startx does the horrible cursor show up on the screen?
04:17:53 <catseye_> if i switch back to the console, i won't be able to get back here without the screen being black.
04:17:59 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> catseye: with startx does the horrible cursor show up on the screen?
04:17:59 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> or not at all?
04:18:13 <catseye_> i had a cursor i think - i don't see it now
04:18:22 <elliott> catseye_: but it won't move?
04:18:32 <elliott> catseye_: try un&re-plugging the mouse
04:18:43 <elliott> in this new world of vicious X
04:19:35 <catseye_> still no. don't think that'll work
04:20:13 <elliott> catseye_: ^Z, do some digging around /var/log/Xorg*
04:20:16 <elliott> bet there's an error in there
04:20:29 <catseye_> yeah, let me try screwing with shit
04:20:37 <catseye_> screwing with shit ALWAYS works.
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04:21:36 <catseye> netbsd certainly saw me plugging in and unplugging the mouse. just x didn't
04:21:44 <elliott> catseye: what about the X log?
04:22:54 <elliott> pikhq: ask me about my ULTIMATELY HIDEOUS panel setup!
04:24:20 <catseye> elliott: it is bitching about "No protocol specified" for the "default pointer"
04:24:29 <elliott> catseye: just install modular X :P
04:24:37 <elliott> catseye: do you have an xorg.conf?
04:24:51 <elliott> catseye: that'll put it in /root or wherever
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04:25:01 <elliott> x doesn't use xorg.conf by default any more
04:25:21 <elliott> most confusing smiley EVER
04:25:30 <elliott> pikhq: ask me about my ULTIMATELY HIDEOUS panel setup!
04:25:42 <pikhq> catseye: And how it does configuration?
04:25:52 <pikhq> Suprisingly, the magic works.
04:26:11 <catseye> elliott: I don't think this is X.org X though.
04:26:14 <elliott> pikhq: The magic works *sometimes*.
04:26:26 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, true, sometimes it doesn't.
04:26:30 <elliott> Also, old "NetBSD X" = "XFree86" :P
04:26:34 <elliott> catseye: BUT it's an old version or something.
04:26:40 <elliott> catseye: Everyone just uses the modular X from pkgsrc.
04:26:42 <pikhq> catseye: X.org is the only maintained X.
04:26:50 <catseye> elliott: where IS the modular X in pkgsrc?
04:26:58 <pikhq> Well, unless you count OpenBSD's crazy hacks.
04:29:13 <catseye> NetBSD X = XFree86 in NetBSD's source tree with NetBSD's patches
04:30:16 <pikhq> XFree86 is dead. Beyond dead. It makes Linux 2.2 seem vibrant.
04:30:42 <catseye> elliott: I meant, the last time I was involved in BSD
04:31:08 <elliott> pikhq: ASK ME ABOUT MY PANELS OR DIE
04:31:23 <catseye> when I asked "where IS", I meant also: are these modular X packages all prefixed with something consistent? if so, what is it?
04:31:34 <catseye> Or otherwise follow a naming convention?
04:31:37 <elliott> catseye: probably xorg- or something
04:31:44 <elliott> why not just look at the tree and grep various plausible things? :P
04:32:09 <elliott> catseye: http://pkgsrc.se/x11/modular-xorg-server
04:32:48 <elliott> catseye: no, i want to see ... uh.
04:34:23 <pikhq> elliott: Do your panels convince me to stop procrastinating?
04:36:21 <elliott> pikhq: Come on, who else has 100% transparent panels?
04:37:51 <Sgeo> If a wifi router requires a password, but the password is the same, is it no longer wide open somehow?
04:38:10 <Sgeo> Or can everyone with the password see the communications of everyone with the password
04:38:13 <Sgeo> s/password/key
04:40:38 <Sgeo> elliott, you are awesomly unhelpful
04:41:16 <elliott> Sgeo: You are awesomely terrible at spelling, awesomely terrible at utilising an appropriate adjective other than "awesomely" in that sentence, and awesomely not even trying to apply logic to the problem before asking it.
04:41:33 <elliott> pikhq: Your mother does indeed not it.
04:42:00 <pikhq> elliott: The power of Google Translate.
04:42:28 <Sgeo> Maybe there's some per connection encryption thing that works well but that is only a part of WPA2 for some reason
04:42:52 <elliott> pikhq: Of Google that to him becomes wa he is everything [
04:43:08 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:43:09 <Sgeo> (as opposed to being automatic on "insecure" wifi networks
04:43:15 <elliott> pikhq: Real property tax that never is the best Web site.
04:43:46 <elliott> pikhq: If we are not a web browser, splendourful cannot the specific one of the interior not still be visualized of this Web site, that is in the Internet.
04:44:42 <catseye> (needed to run disklabel to figure out what the friggin partitions were)
04:45:05 <Sgeo> What I'm basically asking is if there's anything sane my campus could be doing to prevent packet sniffing just from using the open wifi
04:45:28 <Sgeo> Even if it means saying to everyone "Oh, you have to put in a password. The password is xyz"
04:45:51 <elliott> "Gee, guys, should I try and be secure or should I just decide whether to worry or not based on the security of the Wi-Fi?"
04:46:22 <Sgeo> I want to know if I can call my college's IT dept. incompetent
04:46:58 <elliott> pikhq: sane my campus could be doing to prevent packet sniffing just f
04:47:04 <elliott> pikhq: http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/cfe-dev/2010-October/011711.html
04:47:08 <elliott> pikhq: You want to click this.
04:47:11 <catseye> elliot is turning into fungot
04:47:11 <fungot> catseye: hm. next on the debian mirrors yet. fnord. stuart. i shall endeavour to do better than scheme, yome?), so i can't be blamed for not having a solution.
04:47:54 <elliott> pikhq: http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/cfe-dev/2010-October/011711.html
04:48:01 <pikhq> elliott: THE CLANG OF THE LINUX!
04:48:07 <elliott> pikhq has gone batshit insane.
04:48:59 <elliott> pikhq: I SHOULD TOTALLY WRITE MY OWN WEB BROWSER
04:49:09 * coppro wonders who the oldest mayor in the world is
04:49:29 <coppro> Hazel McCallion is definitely in the running
04:49:55 <elliott> coppro: Can't you be appreciative of my answer?
04:50:20 <elliott> pikhq: 100% transparent panels = confuzzling
04:50:48 <elliott> coppro: You may have sadness within you.
04:52:30 <coppro> elliott: Hazel McCallion is 89 years old
04:52:35 <coppro> and just got reelected for a 12th term
04:52:51 <elliott> coppro: Your mom is [Integer overflow.
04:54:07 <coppro> elliott: did you know that your mom jokes aren't funny?
04:54:18 <elliott> coppro: No, but your face did.
04:54:37 <coppro> often her election campaign consists of filing nomination papers
04:55:57 <elliott> Worlds Oldest and Longest Running Mayor • VideoSift: Online Video ...
04:55:57 <elliott> She's 88 years old and has been mayor for 31 years running. It's the 6th largest city in Canada and it's one of the few cities to be debt-free in Canada and ...
04:55:59 <elliott> 96-year-old is likely nation's oldest mayor - U.S. news - msnbc.com
04:56:00 <elliott> 20 Dec 2004 ... At 96, Ocean Breeze Park, Fla., Mayor Dorothy Geeben is probably the nation's oldest, but she's so well liked that no one is opposing her ...
04:56:03 <elliott> Oldest Mayor celebrates her 100th birthday with youngest Mayor
04:56:03 <elliott> 17 Dec 2009 ... Oldest Mayor celebrates her 100th birthday with youngest Mayor ... department is organising a party for her and Islington's current Mayor, ...
04:56:24 <elliott> coppro: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6738078/?GT1=5936
04:56:27 <elliott> coppro: http://www.islington.gov.uk/Council/CouncilNews/PressOffice/2005/10/2248.asp
04:57:43 <coppro> elliott: Dorothy Geeben is dead
04:58:12 <elliott> (As is Bela Lugosi.) coppro: Is the other one?
04:58:37 <coppro> based on the article, she is more acccurately the oldest former mayor and nota ctually serving
04:59:34 <coppro> and the 88-year old is Hazel
05:00:23 <coppro> (tip: she's very popular)
05:00:38 <elliott> catseye: get it right forever
05:00:54 <coppro> she also apparently managed to get elected world's second-best mayor, according to wikipedia
05:01:27 -!- catseye has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:02:07 <coppro> iirc she's also our country's highest-paid mayor
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05:18:34 <catseye> "Oh, don't run X -configure, X.org doesn't do it that way these days"
05:19:23 <catseye> Now... I need a web browser
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05:22:50 <elliott> <catseye> I got my blackbox (!)
05:24:22 -!- DrNinja has joined.
05:24:33 <DrNinja> no more switching to console
05:24:45 -!- DrNinja has changed nick to catseye.
05:25:43 <elliott> catseye: blackbox, i am disappoint
05:26:07 <elliott> catseye: let's go for 0.5.
05:26:15 <elliott> catseye: The WM for true minimalists is lwm.
05:27:55 <elliott> catseye: It draws a 2 to 4 pixels or so black border around every window, and a black title bar. The title bar has, on the left, a hollow white square; clicking this closes the window. It also has the window title. Dragging the title bar moves the window. And dragging the border resizes the window. What happens when any of the three mouse buttons are pressed on the desktop is configurable.
05:28:04 <elliott> ^ from this description, you can reimplement lwm exactly
05:28:14 <elliott> Oh, and it uses a red cursor when you're not over any window.
05:28:21 <elliott> Oh, and you can configure it between sloppy focus and click-to-focus.
05:29:56 <elliott> i just described lwm in its entirety :P
05:30:12 <catseye> it sounds like iwant to read its source code
05:30:53 <catseye> so i can write my own window manager
05:31:04 <elliott> catseye: it's unfortunately not as simple as you might think.
05:31:08 <elliott> catseye: oh, another nice small WM: aewm
05:31:23 <catseye> what, writing one's own window manager? no, i suspected not
05:32:31 <catseye> har, Firefox depends on Python 2.6 :/
05:32:41 <elliott> it's like firefox without the shit
05:32:46 <elliott> now official browser of xfce :P
05:32:53 <elliott> also, uhh, it's just better.
05:33:16 <catseye> How else do I put NetBSD through its paces??
05:33:21 <elliott> catseye: i... is there a point trying to reason with you here
05:33:33 * elliott gets the feeling catseye doesn't want to use netbsd :D
05:33:47 <catseye> You should check it out some time!
05:34:19 <catseye> I have mixed emotions about NetBSD
05:34:33 <elliott> <catseye> Also, DUDE. Midori!
05:34:33 <elliott> <catseye> You should check it out some time!
05:34:43 <elliott> are you just repeating me for no reason :D
05:34:45 <catseye> This already feels astonishingly efficient compared to Windows or Ubuntu
05:34:58 <elliott> catseye: so would ubuntu, if you installed blackbox or whatever :p
05:34:58 <catseye> But the BSDs are like America:
05:35:07 <catseye> Powerful, and maintained by assholes.
05:35:15 <elliott> catseye: netbsd guys seem nice
05:35:19 <elliott> atl east from what i've read
05:35:37 <elliott> catseye: and linux guys aren't assholes? :P
05:35:39 <catseye> UNTIL THEY YELL AT YOU FOR NOT USING LINT
05:35:51 <catseye> no, linux guys are *wankers*. there is a difference.
05:36:32 <elliott> catseye: assholes vs. wankers. i'll go with assholse
05:37:21 <catseye> Now would be the perfect time for some new ager to show up here
05:38:03 <elliott> why are you even doing that
05:38:11 <elliott> why are you installing firefox :P
05:38:24 -!- aster has joined.
05:38:28 <aster> i'm elliott's new ager friend
05:38:40 <aster> you can tell because i never used punctuation
05:39:55 <aster> also firefox sucks
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05:41:06 <coppro> elliott: hmm... are you sure you aren't insane
05:41:20 <elliott> coppro: catseye is installing firefox just to put netbsd through the paces
05:41:26 <elliott> i am fairly sure that i am still better than him
05:42:18 <elliott> catseye: Comfortable. Not drinking too much.
05:42:33 <elliott> Regular exercise at the gym three days a week. getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries. At ease.
05:44:55 <catseye> Good morning Mozilla Firefox Start Page!
05:45:17 <elliott> i wonder if catseye actually enjoys using firefox
05:45:38 <catseye> I prefer dillo but dillo sucks at all sites
05:45:55 <catseye> And getting dillo installed would have been pfft yeah so what
05:46:13 <elliott> catseye: my midori totally looks like firefox! because i stabbed it with a rusty fork
05:46:32 <elliott> it's two point ... point YES!
05:46:50 <catseye> elliott: please, please, do not go into marketing.
05:46:58 <catseye> the world will not be able to handle that.
05:47:02 <elliott> catseye: oh yeah, marketing is sooo my #1 career choice
05:48:00 <elliott> catseye: studies in obnoxious UIs: "Welcome to Windows Phone 7 Connector for Mac, we're glad you're here."
05:48:34 <elliott> It continues: "Windows Phone 7 Connector lets you synchronise your favorite music, videos, photos and podcasts from iTunes and iPhoto to your blah blah blah WE WILL TELL YOU HOW AWESOME OUR PRODUCT IS SO THAT IT TAKES YOU LONGER BEFORE YOU GET TO US EIT."
05:48:37 <catseye> Firefox thinks its called "Namoroka" for some reason.
05:48:54 <catseye> "Namoroka will try to restore your tabs.." wtf
05:48:57 <elliott> "When an update for your Windows Phone 7 software WE WILL TOTALLY SHOW YOU UPDATES EVEN THOUGH WE COULD ANYWAY WITHOUT TELLING YOU ABOUT IT AND YOU WOULDN'T NEED TO KNOW OR ANYTHING"
05:49:09 <elliott> "Ready to get started? 'Cause we'd prefer to give you more spiel, but, you know, we're out of window."
05:49:17 <elliott> catseye: thank Mozilla's trademark rules
05:49:27 <elliott> catseye: Namoroka is the codename for the current firefox release
05:49:32 <elliott> that's what you get because Mozilla are a bunch of assholes
05:49:44 <catseye> crazy people OK MIDORI HERE I COME
05:49:46 <elliott> catseye: basically if you modify firefox in ANY WAY, you can't call it firefox. this includes replacing the artwork with the free versions
05:49:53 <elliott> catseye: because the default logo is non-free
05:50:01 <elliott> replace it with a free one, poof! you can't call it firefox any more.
05:50:11 <elliott> this is why debian ships "iceweasel"
05:50:41 <catseye> Freedom frees the free free frees
05:51:20 <calamari> it's silly because the non-fiery planet logo is better than the official one
05:52:07 <elliott> i won't comment on the aesthetics but at least it's free...
05:52:13 <elliott> mozilla are like sun, ibm, etc.
05:52:17 <elliott> not really committed to freeness. a shame
05:52:41 <catseye> but they're, like, a charity or some shit (note: i know this means nothing)
05:52:42 <elliott> hey, apple finally did the reasonable thing and ditched scrollbars in next os x. (ok so i'm reading mac sites for... "nostalgia"?)
05:53:04 <catseye> elliott: well you have a Mac. well so do I. WAIT THIS MAKES NO SENSE
05:53:11 <elliott> also removing the distinction between an open/closed application
05:53:22 <elliott> (no "app is open" indicators on the dock, apps save their state when closed and resume it on startup)
05:53:28 <elliott> (this is, of course, the bloomin' obvious thing to do)
05:53:34 <elliott> coppro: yes; they now show when you scroll
05:53:42 <catseye> there's some way to set up a menu in blackbox but i forget
05:53:44 <coppro> how do you scroll without them
05:53:50 <elliott> coppro: have you looked at your mouse recently?
05:53:59 <coppro> also, how does an application close? When the last window is closed?
05:54:08 <coppro> elliott: what if you have a one-button mouse. WHAT THEN
05:54:09 <catseye> anyway elliott i am *dangerously* close to making this a usable-for-everyday-work system
05:54:09 <elliott> <coppro> also, how does an application close? When the last window is closed?
05:54:15 <elliott> no (that's not the mac way) but that's irrelevant
05:54:26 <elliott> coppro: then... your mac is too old to run 10.7 anyway :P
05:54:34 <coppro> elliott: no, it's not irrelevant. too many things running at once = bad
05:54:40 <catseye> elliott: so you'll install NetBSD as your main OS *too*, right? :)
05:54:42 <elliott> get the credit card out and also the steve jobs fellatio over tcp/ip interface
05:54:55 <elliott> catseye: if i can get networking and packages working SHUR
05:54:59 <calamari> catseye: what OS are you preparing?
05:55:01 <coppro> elliott: ah, but how do you know that an application is running in the background
05:55:16 <elliott> coppro: y'know, i'm pretty sure they can easily make app gc
05:55:21 <elliott> coppro: close it when it hasn't been used in a while
05:55:24 <catseye> "NetBSD - because you want your computer to feel like a toaster"
05:55:25 <elliott> that would both be easy and obvious
05:55:35 <fungot> Of course NetBSD has toaster feeling!
05:55:59 <catseye> (note: one-person applause: kind of lame)
05:56:01 <calamari> so you're going from windows xp? to netbsd
05:56:09 <elliott> but he was using ubuntu before that, so
05:56:16 <elliott> ^faq a package management system! It's a tarball
05:56:17 <fungot> Of course NetBSD has a package management system! It's a tarball!
05:56:25 <elliott> the endless vista of possibilities
05:56:34 <catseye> and i reserve the right to boot into it occasionally
05:56:38 <fungot> Of course NetBSD has your mom!
05:56:55 <coppro> elliott: yes, but I'm asking if they will
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05:57:20 <coppro> it's a logical thing to do in Mac's context
05:57:24 <elliott> coppro: well it would be an excellent tactic to make people buy more ram... but considering that they sell at least two computers where you can't replace the RAM, that would not be a terribly effective strategy :D
05:57:30 <coppro> (although worth pointing out that it's not particularly original)
05:57:40 <elliott> apple's programmers are pretty good in general, even when they're asked to do stupid things
05:57:47 <coppro> elliott: I meant the whole 'eliminating the distinction' thing
05:57:56 <coppro> which Microsoft actually surprisingly beat them to
05:58:05 <elliott> Microsoft has an indicator to show whether a program is open or not
05:58:13 <elliott> coppro: what microsoft does now is what apple does now
05:58:21 <elliott> show all the application launchers there
05:58:27 <elliott> and have an indicator when they're running
05:58:32 <elliott> this is what apple has done since 2001
05:58:43 <elliott> coppro: what apple are doing is removing the indicator, and *also* making it so that apps save their state on quit
05:58:53 <elliott> so that you could leave it a year, click it, and it'd come back how you lefti t
05:59:23 <elliott> catseye: grey mist! it is the best theme for tgk!
05:59:35 <coppro> elliott: well, the saving-state thing is orthogonal to the removal of indication of runningness
05:59:40 <elliott> catseye: it attempts to be the most boring gtk theme possible! and it works!
05:59:51 <elliott> coppro: otherwise, here's how to tell whether an application was closed at time T:
05:59:55 <elliott> coppro: open application at time T+1
05:59:59 <catseye> elliott: i have no idea how those work gtk2-engines?
06:00:01 <elliott> coppro: see if it's how it was the last time you used it
06:00:09 <elliott> catseye: install gtk2-engines, yes
06:00:14 <elliott> catseye: then i'll tell you how to install GREEEEY MIIIIIST
06:00:17 <elliott> catseye: also install gtk-chtheme
06:00:18 <catseye> elliott: midori is MAKING ME
06:00:55 <coppro> but as I said, it's orthogonal to indicating if it's open or closed
06:01:07 <elliott> coppro: but you can't remove the distinction without not indicating, of course
06:01:13 <elliott> and the only way to completely remove the distinction is by doing both
06:01:27 <coppro> the distinction of a window being open or not still exists
06:01:51 <elliott> (window != app *even more so* in OS X)
06:02:05 <coppro> elliott: and in my opinion, Mac should have long ago done away with the notion that an application can be running and have no windows open
06:02:16 <coppro> unless it is intended to be a background application
06:02:16 <elliott> coppro: actually, that notion is fundamentally Macian
06:02:26 <catseye> elliott: what are cool things i can do on Macs
06:02:29 <elliott> coppro: because, with windows, it's generally an-app-has-a-window
06:02:38 <elliott> coppro: whereas with macs, which have traditionally been *spatial*
06:02:44 <catseye> it's like a lump of white plastic on my desk at work
06:02:45 <elliott> coppro: always have "an app has any number of windows"
06:02:54 <elliott> "and may spawn more of them in the course of normal operation"
06:03:01 <coppro> it should be 'an application has exactly the number of windows it needs'
06:03:06 <coppro> you cannot use a browser with 0 windows
06:03:17 <elliott> coppro: say i'm using my browser
06:03:20 <elliott> coppro: i click close on all the windows
06:03:25 <elliott> coppro: i go to the menu to open a new window
06:03:28 <elliott> coppro: suddenly, my browser menu is gone
06:03:32 * Sgeo angers at Opera
06:03:33 <coppro> that's identical to starting up a new instance of the browser, modulo any startup time
06:03:33 <elliott> and replaced with the previous app i was using
06:04:06 <coppro> elliott: they should also do away with the retarted central menu
06:04:10 <Sgeo> So it wants me to manually type https:// ?
06:04:19 <elliott> Sgeo: like every other browser
06:04:22 <elliott> coppro: basically they should remove everything and make it KDE, right?
06:04:24 <Sgeo> And the error message says nothing to indicate that
06:04:32 <coppro> elliott: xmonad now, remember? :P
06:04:38 <catseye> midori requires ORBit2, uh huh
06:04:46 <Sgeo> elliott, what happens when you type oasis.farmingdale.edu into any other browser?
06:04:50 <coppro> anyway, I contend that both of those things are dumb
06:04:53 <coppro> one does imply the other
06:05:05 <elliott> coppro: the central menu is a good idea for a menu-oriented interface like the mac
06:05:08 <Sgeo> elliott, not in Opera
06:05:12 <elliott> and if you disagree, you're shitting on jef raskin's grave
06:05:18 <Sgeo> Opera complains about an illegal port number
06:05:27 <coppro> especially if they wish to remove the notion of a running vs. not-running program
06:05:41 <elliott> coppro: it works perfectly if you have apps with zero windows
06:05:43 <Sgeo> The URL https://oasis.farmingdale.edu:/pls/banner/twbkwbis.P_WWWLogin contains a port number that is not in the range 1 to 65535.
06:05:51 <elliott> the menu is there, you can use it if you want to open a window or whatever or create a new file
06:05:52 <coppro> elliott: I have no issue with background applications
06:05:59 <elliott> coppro: note: why do you have to have an empty, new file to open a file?
06:06:01 <elliott> this also makes no spatial sense
06:06:17 <Sgeo> I want my multi-rendering-engine browser dammit!
06:06:52 <coppro> elliott: sure. I just think it's dumb.
06:07:06 <catseye> elliott: this thing has MORE dependencies than firefox
06:07:07 <elliott> coppro: well, thanks for your opinion, i'll note that down in a book :P
06:07:22 <catseye> it's certainly asking for more
06:07:33 <coppro> also please note my opinion on free trade
06:07:49 <elliott> catseye: probably the firefox package is stripped down
06:08:09 <elliott> Requirements: GTK+ 2.10, WebkitGTK+ 1.1.1, libXML2, libsoup 2.25.2, sqlite
06:08:09 <elliott> Optional: Unique 0.9, libidn, docutils, libnotify
06:08:24 <elliott> catseye: something *else* is pulling in those dependencies.
06:08:45 <catseye> something midori depends on, YEAH
06:08:53 <elliott> catseye: you are really pissy
06:09:15 <catseye> elliott: it's not too serious :)
06:09:31 <catseye> more paces for NetBSD! hoof hoof hoof
06:09:34 <elliott> my stomach hurts but i am sleepy!
06:11:46 <catseye> elliott: I am so going to rebuild this kernel when I get around to ti
06:11:58 <elliott> catseye: dude no just use THREADBARE LINUX
06:12:26 <elliott> and drop the make tools line for that matter
06:12:34 <elliott> catseye: voila, latest and greated linux 0.01 system compiled
06:12:43 <catseye> i've never built a linux kernel
06:12:53 <elliott> catseye: that's ok, linux 0.01 has no configuration
06:12:56 <catseye> and v0.01 would be the coolest
06:12:56 <elliott> it all happens automatically
06:13:05 <elliott> you need minix to build it
06:13:13 <elliott> now, dunno if you know this
06:13:21 <elliott> but getting minix 1.5 to work in qemu
06:14:20 <catseye> elliott: hey is it 7:13AM where you are?
06:14:33 <elliott> catseye: linux 0.01 was so bad that the filesystem routines were more likely to cause race conditions than not
06:14:34 <catseye> ah so my clock is... just confused
06:14:44 <elliott> catseye: it may be thinking it's still british summer time
06:14:47 <elliott> is it? i dunno, probably not
06:15:08 <elliott> catseye: basically with linux 0.01 writing to the filesystem anything other than serially = hurr
06:15:19 <elliott> i think maybe reading could fuck up too... possibly
06:15:30 <elliott> catseye: also: no filesystem permissions
06:15:45 <catseye> whoa so... not even from minix huh?
06:16:05 <elliott> minix did it all perfectly
06:16:09 <elliott> linux was a pile of shit :P
06:16:32 <elliott> catseye: funly, linux used the minix fs
06:16:35 <catseye> i... hought that was one of the basic things you would copy from minix
06:16:37 <elliott> bet it gave all files 777 permissions :D
06:17:44 <catseye> I sneeze 3000 lines of code without knowing.
06:17:48 <elliott> catseye: wait actually a bit more
06:17:56 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/linux$ wc -l **/*.{s,c} | tail -1
06:18:10 <elliott> catseye: largest file is just 678 lines though
06:18:15 <catseye> so, 7.5kloc.. that's still.. SHEESH tiny.
06:18:30 <elliott> catseye: it's only 52 files of C and asm
06:19:27 <catseye> it started life as a terminal emulator, they say
06:19:29 <elliott> catseye: oh and ofc you had to use gnu libc :)
06:19:42 <elliott> 34589734593745 bits of work linus doesn't have to do
06:19:51 <elliott> rather you could use any libc i GUESS
06:19:58 <elliott> catseye: http://sprunge.us/bRPg full summary of files
06:20:43 <elliott> catseye: i didn't count the header file
06:20:55 <catseye> sure just let me get Midori installed and I'll check that right out
06:21:00 <elliott> catseye: with header files but not counting whitespace and comments:
06:21:03 <elliott> Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 8,102
06:21:08 <elliott> (Total Estimated Cost to Develop = $ 243,032 <-- lol)
06:21:16 <elliott> catseye: that sprunge link is plaintext
06:22:00 <elliott> catseye: protip: you can slim down that toolbar immensely
06:22:06 <elliott> it's an extension, look in tools -> extensions
06:22:57 <catseye> it has been too long. how do i copy text out of rxvt?
06:23:54 <catseye> what extension is it called?
06:24:27 <catseye> also i need to use atom feeds on my website
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06:25:32 <elliott> catseye: customise toolbar
06:25:39 <elliott> then it appears in tools menu
06:25:41 <elliott> i just have the toolbar as
06:25:45 <elliott> back forwards refresh location google
06:26:05 <elliott> catseye: also in preferences: disable show speed dial in new tabs, interface -> tick open tabs in the backgroun
06:26:27 <catseye> ok i can surf the web whee
06:28:53 <elliott> catseye: i don't recall now
06:29:16 <elliott> catseye: ha, i always forget, nc110.tgz is a tarbomb :)
06:29:40 <elliott> -e prog program to exec after connect [dangerous!!]
06:29:52 <elliott> -g gateway source-routing hop point[s], up to 8\n\
06:29:52 <elliott> -G num source-routing pointer: 4, 8, 12, ...\n\
06:30:12 <elliott> catseye: nothing about ipv6?
06:30:24 <catseye> yep. it's the jenny-wayne article!
06:30:30 <elliott> catseye: well there's one way to find out
06:30:38 <elliott> catseye: http://sourceforge.net/projects/nc110/files/unix netcat 1.10 by _Hobbit_/[Unnamed release]/nc110.tgz/download
06:30:56 <elliott> catseye: build that, diff the result to your nc :P
06:31:04 <elliott> if it differs, ARTICLE INSUFFICIENTLY GENUINE, make install
06:31:12 <catseye> Sgeo: Tocqueville. Discuss.
06:31:24 <elliott> catseye: IS THAT A VIRTUAL WORLD
06:31:27 <elliott> I CAN TELL CAUSE OF -VILLE DUDE
06:31:34 <elliott> i like how sgeo isn't here
06:32:09 <elliott> catseye: there's a buffer overflow in nc(1) apparently
06:32:19 <elliott> what matters is that it's hobbit's
06:32:54 <catseye> perhaps asshole #3 will give the world OpenNetcat
06:32:56 <elliott> i am maybe a bit of a purist :D
06:33:07 <elliott> catseye: opinion: every archive should be a shar archive
06:33:11 <catseye> with only two holes in the default install in 12 years
06:33:20 <elliott> catseye: there's already openbsd netcat lawl
06:33:26 <catseye> elliott: sh should have a denotational semantics, agree/disagree
06:33:29 <elliott> catseye: also they removed that and make it totally vague
06:33:35 <elliott> because people kept finding holes
06:33:39 <elliott> also, because the default install is uselses
06:33:46 <elliott> and so having a flaw in it is particularly embarrassing
06:33:49 <elliott> it having no servers or anything
06:34:30 <elliott> bash: make: command not found
06:38:17 <catseye> make is an excellent programming language
06:39:02 <catseye> i appear to have svn now (not that I need it; i have nc)
06:40:03 <elliott> catseye: i write everything in make/nc
06:40:20 <elliott> catseye: omg you could totally do gui apps with nc
06:40:25 <elliott> catseye: just tell X to listen on tcp
06:43:14 <catseye> elliott: did you know your father was a fish? maybe, you should worship a fish god.
06:43:47 * elliott attempts to work fish into something accurately representing his opinion of his father, fails
06:43:55 <elliott> instead, here's a Useless Use of test Award winner:
06:46:34 <catseye> elliott: you are educated stupid! you do not accept four-cornered cube wisdom of wisest man on earth.
06:46:50 <elliott> either i'm hallucinating or catseye is
06:46:52 <catseye> also, all clocks are wrong.
06:47:10 <catseye> ok, enough... whatshisname.
06:47:47 <elliott> catseye: gene ray, doctor of cubic
06:48:01 <catseye> Apparently he is the *second* wisest human, now.
06:48:48 <elliott> catseye: the site is http://www.timecube.com/
06:49:13 <elliott> i think it's doctor of cubic, not cubism
06:49:27 <catseye> EXISTS BETWEEN A TOP AND BOTTOM, BETWEEN A FRONT AND BACK, BETWEEN OPPOSITE SIDES,
06:49:30 <catseye> AND INSIDE AND OUTSIDE. A LL YOU DUMB EVIL BASTARDS EARN
06:50:40 <elliott> Exists between a top and bottom / Between a front and back / Between opposite sides / And inside and outside / All you dumb evil bastards earn
06:53:14 <coppro> between an up and a down / a strange and a charm / a top and a bottom / stands a gluon alone
06:53:30 <elliott> now coppro has taken it into bad quantum poetry
06:53:36 <elliott> but you won't see that on the charts!
06:53:46 <elliott> coppro: ask me about my insane panel set up
06:54:00 <coppro> elliott: the thing about quantum poetry is the only way to determine if it's good or bad is to read it
06:54:04 <catseye> yeah yeah / hey hey / yeah yeah / nah nah nah nah nah, nah / hey
06:54:08 <coppro> elliott: what is your insane panel setup?
06:54:19 * elliott ignores that second-to-latest line of coppro's
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06:54:50 <elliott> coppro: topleft, 100% transparent -- i.e. invisible -- a show desktop button in a minimal-width-and-height panel by itself.
06:54:54 <elliott> coppro: it appears only with my mouse over it, although i could change that too
06:55:03 <elliott> coppro: bottomleft, 100% transparent, the same but with the xfce menu
06:55:25 <coppro> a sine, sine, everywhere a sine. in the fourier breakdown in the world of mine
06:55:32 <catseye> http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/
06:55:33 <elliott> coppro: topright, opaque, minimal width and height: notification area, battery monitor, clock, wastebasket button, logoff button; arranged horizontally
06:55:39 <coppro> elliott: I have no panel
06:55:48 <elliott> coppro: bottomright, opaque, minimal width and height: list of icons representing open windows. vertically arranged
06:55:56 <elliott> i.e. half my panels are invisible and only one button
06:56:01 <elliott> and the other is horizontal
06:56:06 <catseye> and "FreeBSD" is under "Linux"
06:56:06 <elliott> (of the ones that aren't invisible)
06:56:51 <elliott> catseye: hey that landing page is new. and lame
06:57:05 <elliott> they're using the old windows logo
06:57:13 <elliott> and i think an old apple logo
06:57:19 <elliott> wait no, apple logo is current
06:59:29 <elliott> catseye: *terminal, also >:D
07:00:06 <catseye> now let's see, you want leaves, boiled in water, with a liquid squirted from a cow put into it
07:00:27 <elliott> catseye is on DRUUUGS MAAAAAAAN
07:00:51 <elliott> MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN
07:00:57 <catseye> just grape juice (rotten) and Douglas Adams
07:01:17 <elliott> catseye: relevant: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/?cid=003.jpg
07:02:47 <elliott> the only webcomic worth reading
07:02:49 <elliott> Gregor: http://yourewinner.com/wiki/index.php5?title=Main_Page
07:04:15 <elliott> http://yourewinner.com/wiki/index.php5?title=Big_Rigs_Online
07:04:19 <elliott> catseye: it's not serious :p
07:04:51 <elliott> http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/?cid=001.jpg can any sober person be this wise about stairs?
07:06:46 <catseye> "This installer for the Haskell Platform requires ghc to be installed first"
07:06:57 <catseye> thank you ghc for MISLEADING me, then
07:07:13 <elliott> AAAAAAAARHHH WHAT IF WE TIED A COMPUTER TO A ROPE
07:07:16 <catseye> Meredith and I will go on picnic
07:08:29 <catseye> WE WOULD BE BETTER FOR DOING IT
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07:09:59 <zzo38> Please tell me why is "*.net *.split" today?
07:10:49 <zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
07:10:51 <elliott> because there was a netsplit
07:10:58 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
07:11:08 <catseye> zzo38: our scientists have pondered that question and have told us about sunspot activity and spiders three times as big as they are, and squirrels four times as big as the spiders (those are some BIG squirrels.)
07:13:45 <zzo38> That would make twelve times in total. And which is the question having to do with sunspots?
07:13:56 <elliott> zzo38: it's to do with quatnum.
07:14:36 <catseye> Sunspot activity in increase, sends more quantum to our Earth.
07:15:12 <elliott> ""Illegal cargo" is the name commonly given to the cargo transported by the rigs in Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing. The cargo is clearly of some importance, due to the Rigs' mission to transport it safely to the destination without police intervention."
07:15:21 <elliott> "What the illegal cargo actually consists of is a mystery, it was never revealed in the game. Initially it was believed that the cargo consisted of drugs, illegally being smuggled into Russia. This theory was quickly refused due to the fact that WINNERS don't D.A.R.E do drugs."
07:15:36 <elliott> ... "An opposite theory is that the cargo is itself copies of Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing. The setting of the game is not clear, but it is often believed that it is set in a dystopian LOSER future where Big Rigs is outlawed."
07:17:26 <zzo38> What does "quatnum" means?
07:17:40 <elliott> imagine the anti-wave function defined by
07:17:45 <zzo38> catseye: Can you cross-compile it?
07:18:33 <elliott> w(x) = phi(x/ln(x^(3/4)) + sum{0 to inf} x^q_n(x)) / (pi*h*c)
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07:18:43 <elliott> where q is the particulating function
07:18:52 <elliott> and h is the quatnum constant
07:18:58 <elliott> then it's basically building on that theory.
07:19:16 <zzo38> Is h like Planck constant?
07:20:17 <elliott> it's the minimal value that an anti-wave can have at time t defined by t^q_n(x) = x^q_n(t+x)
07:20:32 <elliott> of course each one has a different minimum
07:20:33 <zzo38> And what does w and phi means here?
07:20:40 <elliott> but it turns out that they're all in a certain interval
07:20:43 <elliott> and it's just the midpoint
07:20:56 <elliott> zzo38: w is the anti-wave function defined
07:21:02 <elliott> phi is the crossing function
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07:55:18 <calamari> Gregor: I could be wrong, but I think these unreachable fb images are inside <script> tags.. although I did see some 1x1 gifs
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08:34:10 <catseye> @tell calamari Runnin' on NetBSD.
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08:48:59 <evincar> It's pretty quiet in here at this hour.
08:49:08 <evincar> Though you seem to be ever-present.
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08:50:45 <ais523> gah, I'd forgotten that Windows XP existed
08:50:50 <ais523> which is kind-of impressive now I thinhk about it
08:51:13 <evincar> There are those of us who still hold on to the relics of yore, even the newer ones.
08:51:20 <ais523> this is a ridiculous lecture room computer; the desktop's full of random Powerpoints and Word files
08:51:29 <ais523> the desktop background says "Please Check Monitor For Updated Password"
08:51:42 <ais523> and there's a permanent notification bubble up saying "You have files waiting to be written to the CD"
08:51:50 <evincar> Public computers are crufty beings.
08:52:07 <evincar> How do you find yourself in a lecture room?
08:53:48 <ais523> they're spending the entire day teacher training
08:53:58 <evincar> Oh, it's day where you are.
08:54:01 <ais523> which is frustrating enough as it is
08:54:06 <ais523> well, early morning for me
08:54:09 <ais523> I got here a bit early
08:54:27 <ais523> at least I can use this laptop for the purpose it was bought for now (snarky IRC comments during lectures)
08:54:47 <ais523> a bit of an unusual time to come to IRC
08:55:07 <evincar> I'm known for my interest in the esoteric.
08:55:33 <evincar> Anyway, I can't sleep and I'm mulling over a language idea.
08:55:46 <ais523> go for it, I need an insightful distraction
08:56:46 <evincar> Well, I got the bug when I read a forum post on gamedev.net wherein a guy rambled for two pages about a game idea that...well, it's not really an idea. It's sort of a meta-idea. It's so abstract and philosophical that it can't actually be implemented, and I'm fairly certain that it's only comprehensible to its author.
08:57:39 <evincar> In any case, I was thinking I'd like to make a language for which not only am I the only person who understands it, but I'm also the only person who *can* understand it. Unfortunately, I'm not so brilliant.
08:58:49 <evincar> Which means I have to go for an incomprehensible clusterfuck of esoteria rather than a shining monolith of genius.
08:59:34 <evincar> I'd like it to be elegant, though.
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09:05:33 <ais523> seems the wireless here is dodgy, too...
09:06:10 <fizzie> All our lecture room computers have the desktop completely full of presentations, too. One never knows what kind of hidden gems may be found there.
09:06:25 <evincar> So...need me to repeat anything?
09:06:27 <ais523> fizzie: one of our lecturers decided to look at one of them just for fun
09:06:30 <ais523> it was a paper about security
09:06:35 <ais523> evincar: I'll grab it from the logs
09:06:42 <ais523> anyway, it had a screenshot of a phishing dialog box
09:06:54 <ais523> and the lecturer looked at it, tried to click cancel, and nothing happened
09:07:00 <ais523> eventually realising it was an image
09:07:35 <ais523> evincar: heh, I like the concept
09:07:47 <ais523> I think I've gone one step further with Feather, inventing something that not even I understand
09:07:48 <fizzie> Back in pre-high school, switching the teacher's computer's desktop background to a screenshot of the desktop and hiding all the icons was quite a classic.
09:08:00 <ais523> fizzie: that's ingenious!
09:08:26 <fizzie> "Try rebooting it." "Oh, it's still broken, how strange."
09:08:39 <nooga> http://brlcad.org/wiki/Mged <-- this is like vi for 3d graphics
09:08:47 <evincar> ais523: The trouble is that elegance implies simplicity, but simplicity often implies comprehensibility.
09:09:12 <ais523> I suppose you could go down the Ursala route
09:09:46 <ais523> base everything on an abstraction that's so low-level that despite the lang's core itself being neat and simple in theory, you need a ridiculous amount of crufty abstractions on top of that to do anything useful
09:11:43 <ais523> nooga: that analogy's scary enough
09:12:06 <nooga> and it's developed by the US ARMY!
09:12:44 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRL-CAD
09:20:49 <evincar> ais523: Took a bit of digging to find the home page, but I'm liking what I see. The syntax is a tad noisy, but the way data flows through the programs is obvious, and pleasing.
09:24:25 <ais523> heh, it's back up again?
09:24:41 <ais523> Ursala's in the category of "unintentional esolangs", along with things like BancSTAR, and arguably Perl but that's much less extreme
09:24:46 <evincar> I withdraw "a tad noisy" and substitute "like white noise, only not nearly as good-looking".
09:25:05 <ais523> it actually has two incompatible syntaxes used for different things
09:25:08 <evincar> (Tried to read a longer program.)
09:25:26 <ais523> the one that looks like alphanumeric white noise, and the one that looks more like a highish-level language
09:26:04 <ais523> hmm, let me quote the handout I've just been given
09:27:27 <ais523> "Our learning culture takes different forms in different disciplinary areas, each of which have their own distinct characters and traditions of learning. Central to our learning culture across all our disciplines at Birmingham, however, is enquiry-based learning. This approach to learning is intended to challenge and engage our students who will encounter it, in different guises, at different levels of their educational experience."
09:27:34 <ais523> anyone want to attempt to translate?
09:28:42 <evincar> People in different disciplines learn differently. Learning is based on questions. Questions can be challenging, and this is good.
09:29:03 <evincar> Aside: I approve of how the manual opens with "Concurrently while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may ormay not realize it is also themost irrelevant. --The Architect"
09:29:43 <evincar> (Ugh, copying from a poorly typeset PDF makes spaces subject to radioactive decay.)
09:31:31 <ais523> when I do it, it tends to add extra spaces between letters
09:32:34 <ais523> "A learner can only “compare” if s/he first “describes” both things that s/he is comparing."
09:32:49 <ais523> apart from the scare smartquotes, that's entirely intelligible, but still somehow seems entirely wrong
09:34:38 <ais523> it also manages to sneak "□riticiz" into what is otherwise a list of verbs
09:34:48 <evincar> I think it means that a comparison must be based on a metric, which is derived from a "description".
09:36:02 <evincar> Whose limit approaching infinity is tautological uselessness.
09:36:11 <ais523> the implication to me is that you must first completely understand something in order to be able to compare it to something else, especially given the context (which I can't be bothered to retype)
09:37:06 <evincar> Also political/grammatical correctness: "s/he" instead of singular "they".
09:37:48 <ais523> I'm fine with that; gender-neutral pronouns are such a mess that I'll accept anything vaguely plausible
09:37:50 <evincar> How do you pronounce s/he? Is it "he or she"? "sss-hee"?
09:38:36 <evincar> It's not really a mess. There's been a gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun since the 13th century, and it's "they".
09:38:43 <ais523> s(neutral vowel), then about half a syllable break, then "he"
09:39:39 <evincar> Saying singular "they" is ungrammatical is like insisting we say "one" instead of "you" for general statements.
09:39:54 <ais523> well, I'm British, and the Royal Family still do that
09:40:00 <ais523> it's one of the clearest signs of being a royal, in fact
09:40:06 <ais523> and everyone would get mad at them if they didn't
09:40:28 <evincar> But no, prescriptivists love their I, you, he/she/it; we, you, they; one.
09:40:37 <fizzie> I like to write s?he and h(im|er) in suitably ridiculous contexts.
09:40:48 <ais523> the equivalent of English "one" is used all the time in other languages
09:40:51 <evincar> Bah, God save the Queen and fuck the Queen's English.
09:40:57 <ais523> like "on" in French and "man" in German
09:41:04 <evincar> Yeah, it gets a bit annoying in French.
09:41:31 <evincar> People use "on" as a substitute for any pronoun. It's valid, but doing it too much is lazy.
09:43:05 <ais523> missed point of the week: the person teaching this is trying to figure out why everyone's here, especially for no obvious reason in many cases
09:43:10 <ais523> she's somehow missed that her course is compulsory
09:43:56 <evincar> That's like kicking off one shoe and waiting indefinitely for the other shoe to drop.
09:45:10 <ais523> wow, this document actually uses the word "Ppt" to refer to computerized slides
09:45:30 <ais523> calling them "Powerpoints" I understand, especially for a nontechnical user
09:45:39 <ais523> but using the file extension, then capitalising it like a word?
09:45:39 <evincar> You're enjoying yourself, aren't you? :P
09:45:59 <ais523> managed to get through the entire introductions without mentioning what my name was
09:46:06 <fizzie> ais523: Is it pronounced letter by letter like an abbreviation or how?
09:46:12 <ais523> who knows, it's written
09:46:18 <evincar> It's pronounced as an unvoiced bilabial trill with rising intonation, followed by a pulmonic click.
09:46:46 <evincar> Halfway between blowing a raspberry and making the sound of a wine bottle popping.
09:47:34 <fizzie> Using the file extension is strange anyway; aren't people usually trying to hide it, as if ashamed?
09:47:50 <ais523> fizzie: nah, it's just that Windows does that by default in case it confuses people
09:48:00 <ais523> but all the nontechnical people I know are deadly scared of docx, etc
09:48:11 <ais523> so they take extra care to use the Office 97 file formats
09:48:26 <evincar> Hiding file extensions causes far more harm than good.
09:50:18 <fizzie> Doc X and the Powerpoints -- good name for villains in a show.
09:50:33 <fizzie> Though I guess the Powerpoints sound a bit too superheroy.
09:50:54 <fizzie> Maybe they could be good guys, too. Doc X is a bit ambiguous like that.
09:52:00 <evincar> Then there's the less popular Odie F. and the Impresses, if you're an OpenOffice fan.
09:52:18 <evincar> I'm going to go die in a hole for writing that, thanks.
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10:01:56 <evincar> Daw, everyone just sorta shut up. :(
10:02:12 <evincar> I blame ais523 and his shoddy wireless access.
10:05:23 <fizzie> I blame your "Odie F." bit.
10:07:09 <evincar> I HAVE BEEN AWAKE FOR MANY HOURS AND I AM SORRY
10:08:19 <fizzie> Actually, it might be just that he's actually having to do something at that thing he's in.
10:08:52 <evincar> Pah. Responsibilities are for squares.
10:15:23 <fizzie> Is there a corresponding word for non-squares? Circles?
10:16:52 <evincar> That reminds me: r=||csc theta|+|sec theta|-||csc theta|-|sec theta|||
10:17:28 <evincar> (Polar function for a square.)
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13:12:55 <ais523> <fizzie> Actually, it might be just that he's actually having to do something at that thing he's in. <-- correct guess, as it happens
13:13:01 <ais523> although the wireless was an issue too
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13:21:49 <Vorpal> In C. Am I right in thinking that (int)floor(x/12.0) should be the same as x/12, assuming that x is a positive integer?
13:22:07 <Vorpal> I'm trying to figure out some confusing code someone else wrote
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16:37:24 <cpressey> I wonder if you can use Enhanced CWEB to build an actual website.
16:37:43 <cpressey> I shall make a note to ask zzo38 next time I see him.
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16:48:51 <cpressey> <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRL-CAD <-- that is one bitchen logo.
16:49:29 <elliott> 01:39:39 <evincar> Saying singular "they" is ungrammatical is like insisting we say "one" instead of "you" for general statements.
16:49:39 <elliott> Uh, a lot of people here use "one".
16:49:42 <elliott> 01:40:28 <evincar> But no, prescriptivists love their I, you, he/she/it; we, you, they; one.
16:49:46 <elliott> Preaching to the motherfucking choir.
16:52:15 <elliott> 08:37:09 <cpressey> I wonder!
16:52:15 <elliott> 08:37:24 <cpressey> I wonder if you can use Enhanced CWEB to build an actual website.
16:52:20 <elliott> It only does C code, so... no? :P
16:52:34 <elliott> That's his *other* system written entirely in TeX.
16:52:41 <elliott> Although I don't know if it does multiple files.
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16:55:05 <Gregor> elliott: Holy eff, BRL-CAD has been in active development for 25 years.
16:55:25 <elliott> holy shit i have two xchats open how did that happen
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16:55:38 <elliott> Gregor: I had a dream where you were an asshole!
16:56:36 <cpressey> yesweb, yeah that would make more sense.
16:58:11 <cpressey> as much sense as generating an entire website from a single source file could make, anyway
17:03:14 <cpressey> elliott: oh btw -- netcat -e could not run my bot correctly on NetBSD, either. I was wrong to blame Cygwin.
17:04:05 <elliott> cpressey: desktops suck so much
17:04:14 <cpressey> I used my homebrew netcatlet in python. But I'm left wondering wtf netcat -e wants (I know it worked under Ubuntu)
17:04:23 <cpressey> elliott: because they're not written in Java
17:04:24 <elliott> netcat -e can't do sh stuff
17:04:34 <elliott> so you need to create a wrapper if you want
17:04:47 <elliott> $ echo './myprog 1 2 3' >prog; chmod +x prog
17:05:01 <cpressey> not even nc -e 'lua foo.lua' ?
17:05:09 <cpressey> maybe that's how i did it previously. don't remember
17:05:17 <elliott> cpressey: can't do that, nope
17:05:24 <cpressey> wait, does a hashbang in a script count as sh stuff?
17:05:46 <cpressey> (have no idea how i was getting it to work before)
17:05:57 <cpressey> (maybe the ubuntu version is 'enhanced' har no probably not)
17:06:36 <elliott> cpressey: do you have any idea how hard it is to fit all the panel stuff into one panel?
17:06:41 <cpressey> Java penetration in desktop infrastructure (wms, etc) is almost nil
17:07:13 <elliott> cpressey: java's penetration *should* be nil./
17:07:21 <elliott> last i checked which was never
17:07:35 <elliott> Java -- CNI -- X Windowing System
17:07:35 <elliott> Java -- CNI -- X Window System (JCNIX) ... The AWT and image code, the Xlib toolkit and some of the Java2D pipeline classes has now been merged into the ...
17:07:39 <elliott> JCNIX is basically code that makes it possible to create graphical interfaces using GCJ on a platform supporting the X Window System.
17:07:39 <elliott> It started out as some simple experimenting with the CNI interface of gcj and Xlib. After a while, development veered into reimplementing significant chunks of the Java 1.3 API.
17:08:38 <cpressey> "Google: Letting you dredge up gunk you don't want to know about. It's what we do!"
17:08:39 <olsner> cpressey: I used something called "socat" when I wanted to make an ircbot
17:08:50 <elliott> olsner: socat is Yet Another Inferior Netcat Clone
17:09:01 <olsner> because I couldn't get hold of a netcat that had a working cat-through-program option
17:09:07 <cpressey> I couldn't get socat to work either, but I hardly tried
17:09:23 <elliott> olsner: it takes two seconds to compile nc yourself :p
17:09:34 <elliott> you have to add #include <resolv.h> to netcat.c on modern linux
17:09:41 <elliott> $ make -e nc XFLAGS='-DLINUX'
17:09:49 <elliott> (to avoid static linking which is a very silly idea with glibc)
17:09:56 <elliott> (otherwise it'd be make linux)
17:09:56 <olsner> well, the netcat.c of *which* netcat?
17:10:04 <elliott> olsner: the first, original, and only netcat
17:10:09 <elliott> archived at http://nc110.sourceforge.net/
17:10:32 <elliott> olsner: all others are clones by people too stupid to realise that a proliferation of programs with the exact same name is a terrible idea
17:11:10 <olsner> and it's sooo easy to find out which of these clones with the exact same name support the right option
17:11:25 <olsner> anyway, socat worked for me
17:11:46 <elliott> $ make -e nc XFLAGS='-DLINUX -DGAPING_SECURITY_HOLE'
17:11:48 <cpressey> can netcat even concatenate things?
17:12:06 <elliott> -DGAPING_SECURITY_HOLE is the thing that enables -e
17:12:19 <elliott> (why it's gaping: $ nc -l -p 12345 -e sh)
17:14:32 <elliott> <skizzhg> but since i don't have xfce [...]
17:16:15 <cpressey> No command 'xfce' found, did you mean: Command 'xfe' from package 'xfe' (universe) Command 'xpce' from package 'swi-prolog-x' (universe) Command 'xfte' from package 'fte-xwindow' (universe)
17:16:56 <elliott> (that's for, uh, i don't know what)
17:17:10 <cpressey> No command 'xkcd' found, did you mean: Command 'xmcd' from package 'xmcd' (universe)
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17:18:38 <olsner> does xkcd stand for anything?
17:18:57 <elliott> apart from Xtremely Kunty Crap Dickshitfuck
17:19:02 <elliott> ok that's a terrible backronym
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17:41:33 <elliott> cpressey: i totally reverted back to a one-panel system because i'm not hardcore enough
17:44:21 <cpressey> elliott: this is... your WM design?
17:44:34 <elliott> cpressey: no no this is just what i'm using right now
17:44:42 <elliott> don't be silly my wm design is platonically perfect
17:45:00 <cpressey> this is your desktop environment, then
17:45:42 <elliott> i prefer "my living insanity" but, yes..
17:49:26 <cpressey> there, added another virtual desktop. that'll bring some excitement to the party
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17:49:47 <elliott> cpressey: in my perfect-but-one-or-two WM design, there's an infinite number of virtual desktops!
17:49:51 <elliott> well: one. but it's infinitely big
17:51:00 <elliott> cpressey: The manual begins like this: "Your desktop," it says, "is big. Really big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindboggingly big it is. I mean you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. Listen ..." and so on.
17:53:36 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/ki20f.jpg please let this be real
17:55:17 <ais523> the whole ByteByteJump/BytePusher/ByteMover/BytePusherCore thing has just got even crazier
17:55:31 <ais523> with competing specifications on different pages, and what's almost a flamewar over what the spec should be
17:55:37 <elliott> ais523: but wait, i haven't cashed in on it yet!
17:55:39 <ais523> I don't understand it at all...
17:55:40 <elliott> except i'm going to use my own OISC
17:55:49 <elliott> because bytebytejump is totally ... uh
17:56:05 <elliott> [[Advantages compared to 24-bit ByteByteJump:]]
17:56:25 <cpressey> ais523: does this mean esowiki will finally have a "disputed" box and (ooh) maybe even a locked page?
17:56:43 <elliott> ais523: no but seriously, where's the flamewar
17:56:56 <elliott> "Vote: should BytePusher have a standard "system ROM"?"
17:57:00 <elliott> language design by vote: fail
17:57:10 <elliott> "Hmmm...This is starting to look too complicated! =/" --Javamannen
17:58:01 <ais523> wow, anyone who cares about American politics: http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/10/26/1428226/Voting-Machines-Selecting-Default-Candidates?from=rss
17:58:05 <ais523> if that's real, it's too stupid to believe
17:58:22 <elliott> ais523: it has become slightly ridiculous though, and i'd love to see him ordered to cut the bytepusher page down just to watch him squirm because i'm evil, but i see no flamewar
17:58:22 <ais523> cpressey: locking pages due to flamewars seems a bit ridiculous
17:58:29 <elliott> ais523: where is the flamewar?
17:58:32 <ais523> elliott: it's not really on individual pages now
17:58:37 <ais523> look at edit summaries in recent changes
17:58:49 <cpressey> video console design by vote: also fail
17:58:49 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . Talk:BytePushCore; 22:18 . . (+904) . . Zzo38 (Talk | contribs) (YOU SHOULD NOT CHANGE THE BYTEPUSHER SPEC)
17:58:53 <elliott> ais523: *that* wasn't a flame
17:59:01 <elliott> ais523: that was zzo38 taking off javamannen's statement in his previous message
17:59:03 <fizzie> "Voting machine" and "stupid" go together like... uh, like any two very well going-together things.
17:59:08 <elliott> ("I WILL NOT CHANGE THE BYTEPUSHER SPEC." three times after exasperating himself)
17:59:22 <elliott> ais523: other than that, i see absolutely nothing hostile
17:59:24 <cpressey> ais523: I was being a bit hyperbolic, of course
17:59:32 <elliott> and the "battle of the bytes" thing is between two specs from the same author
17:59:42 <ais523> oh, that's what I was talking about
17:59:47 <ais523> POVforking your own spec is pretty impressive
17:59:49 <elliott> ais523: like i told you minutes ago
17:59:52 <elliott> ais523: it isn't a povfork!
18:00:02 <elliott> ais523: it's just a variant designed to be better-implementable in hardware
18:00:11 <ais523> I'm still amused, though
18:00:18 <elliott> hmm, do electronic voting machines allow spoiling a ballot?
18:00:51 <ais523> yep, they have some sort of complex touchscreen writein
18:01:10 <elliott> i want to be able to tick all the candidate boxes!
18:01:18 <ais523> (the e-voting I use for elections within the University actually has a "spoil ballot" checkbox)
18:01:33 <elliott> ais523: give everyone a stylus pen thing that you can use to draw little crosses in boxes and it chooses that candidate, or press on the "vote" button, etc
18:01:40 <elliott> ais523: and make it just scribble anywhere else
18:01:43 <elliott> spoil a ballot: scribble randomly
18:01:56 <elliott> spoil ballot checkbox, lovely
18:01:56 <ais523> you know, that Slashdot story is so stupid I'm going to quote it
18:02:00 <elliott> rigidly organised dissent!
18:02:11 <ais523> "Some voters in Las Vegas have noticed that Democrat Harry Reid's name is checked by default on their electronic voting machines. By way of explanation, the Clark County Registrar says that when voters choose English instead of Spanish, Reid's Republican opponent, Sharron Angle, has her name checked by default."
18:02:29 <ais523> well, the subject of the story, I mean
18:02:33 <ais523> (or the story itself, if it's a lie)
18:02:52 <elliott> ais523: aww, it's a bug then
18:03:07 <elliott> ais523: i was hoping it, like, always selected a single republican
18:03:26 <fizzie> In other news, fungot is finally twittering again. It had been dead since the end of August, when Twitter went all oauthy.
18:03:26 <fungot> fizzie: emacs can indent and edit on sexprs correctly, but you can't read in dreams. so unless you're using all objects that are in fnord/ foof-loop.scm; the development code will be shared
18:03:39 <ais523> elliott: it sounds to me like a misguided attempt at fairness rather than a bug
18:03:54 <ais523> bonus points if it turns out that a vote is recorded backwards in a particular langauge
18:03:57 <elliott> ais523: not even diebold are that stupid surely
18:04:02 <elliott> SRY, *PREMIER ELECTION SYSTEMS
18:04:12 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, not being able to read in dreams is also one of my Emacs pet peeves.
18:04:12 <fungot> fizzie: got my dead keys back".
18:04:35 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> fizzie: got my dead keys back".
18:04:36 <fungot> elliott: fiscolin:/prog/ misc/ hsfunge/ that your final answer?) mmmm.....really?
18:04:50 <elliott> fizzie's second name is COLIN
18:05:05 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Xe-Logo.svg <-- similarity to the X11 logo, discuss
18:05:05 <ais523> elliott: have you read the research paper where they analysed voting machines?
18:05:19 <elliott> ais523: no and i don't want to, too depressing
18:05:25 <ais523> after reading that, you can believe that Diebold (or other voting machine manufacturers) could do anything
18:05:36 <elliott> *PREMIER ELECTION SOLUTIONS
18:05:56 <Gregor> WebSplat: Undeniably the greatest piece of software ever written?
18:06:06 <elliott> "Self-Building Chips - As Easy As Microwave Meals"
18:06:07 <elliott> "Canadian researchers have found a way to speed up self-assembling chips — by using microwaves instead of traditional ovens."
18:06:09 <elliott> for a wonderful, wonderful second
18:06:09 <fizzie> Mwahaha, two of his latest tweets must be among the best ones.
18:06:12 <fizzie> "About NetHack: of the ravenous bugblatter beast of extraordinary swiftness, the lord spake unto moses, saying, again, ask any nymph."
18:06:15 <elliott> i thought they meant chips as in
18:06:20 <ais523> my favourite exploit was the one where they pointed a PDA at the voting machine's infrared port, causing a buffer overflow, dumping corrupt data into its output that caused another buffer overflow, eventually overwriting the central voting server that counted the votes for the entire county/state with arbitrary code
18:06:21 <fizzie> "About IRC: by inspiration of god, can i release it with mit scheme"
18:06:29 <elliott> and i glee'd at the idea of a self-assembling chip
18:09:52 <elliott> "Ray Ozzie's Departing Memo a Warning To Microsoft" oh come on, i tried to read that
18:09:57 <elliott> it was barely even english
18:12:13 <fungot> elliott: forth isn't concatenative, wasn't it?
18:12:29 <fizzie> I think the verb is "tworts", isn't it? Well, anyway.
18:12:31 <Gregor> elliott, fizzie: Wow. Where?
18:12:35 <fizzie> http://twitter.com/fungot
18:12:35 <fungot> fizzie: i'm using goto mainly as a nice ' skip intro' button.) fnord. 0) ' 0) ' hi bye))
18:13:10 <elliott> fungot stands for FUNGe bOT?
18:13:11 <fungot> elliott: i wouldn't want to upset any srfi editors or anything.
18:13:14 <elliott> well, with -98 or whatever
18:13:38 <fizzie> That's where I think I got the name from. Why, what'd you think it stood for?
18:14:01 <elliott> i thought it was just a name >_>
18:14:35 <elliott> I like how not at all fizzie uses Twitter.
18:14:59 <fizzie> I have my own Twitter account, and I've twordled once to test it.
18:15:32 <elliott> It's just, y'know, amusing. :p
18:17:13 <Gregor> Might Facebook consider it defamation of character that the Facebook logo is now dancing on my corpse?
18:17:37 <Gregor> Apparently not *shrugs*
18:22:27 <elliott> Stupid Things From the Arch Linux Community, Edition #1:
18:22:54 <elliott> "[question about eye strain with font rendering on Linux vs. Windows from someone with less-than-ideal sight]"
18:23:01 <elliott> Reply: "Linux is just an inferior OS when it comes to usability :P"
18:23:16 <elliott> It's meant to be painful! LIVE WITH IT
18:29:26 <elliott> Gregor: Hey, I realised something.
18:29:31 <elliott> Gregor: You have the Microsoft fonts now, yeah?
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18:30:10 <elliott> Gregor: If you set the Chrome settings to Times New Roman 16 / Arial 16 / Courier New 13, we can get what HavenWorks is meant to look like, on a Windows system.
18:30:18 <elliott> With the correct column widths! Hooray! :p
18:32:18 <elliott> Gregor: BACK INTTA THE FRAY (with correct settings this time)
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18:34:19 <elliott> Gregor: 141@129D because of an enemy STANDING ON SOME TEXT THAT JUST HAPPENS TO BE ITALIC X_X
18:35:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't believe you ever were.
18:35:36 <elliott> 800 was got before you got 600.
18:35:58 <elliott> Because you used an obnoxious diaeresis? :p
18:37:39 <elliott> When you started using it every single word >_<
18:40:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I use it on "noöne", and that's basically it as far as normal conversation goes.
18:49:55 <elliott> Gregor: My strategy works well.
18:52:23 <elliott> Gregor: 561@1360. I've completed every column up to "A-Z News Subjects" in the second column.
18:52:40 <Gregor> elliott: Your strategy is good, I agree :P
18:52:46 <Gregor> elliott: But I'm doing, y'know, WORK right now.
18:52:55 <elliott> Gregor: I DISAGREE WITH YOUR ASSERTION THAT YOU'RE DOING WORK
18:55:01 <elliott> 636@1628D will to live lost
18:58:53 <pikhq> It's so very nice to be able to just install things without the compiler going.
18:59:34 <elliott> pikhq: I have decided to leave Grey Mist as it is.
19:00:58 <elliott> pikhq: But I have changed the name of the GTK theme to "Grey Mist", so if you want 1.0, rename your directory in ~/.themes, replace .gtkrc with the whitespace-adjusted-and-renamed http://sprunge.us/KIEH, and change theme preference to the new name :P
19:01:24 <elliott> ais523: hmm, you know how you can chop a few bits off an SHA-1 hash and it hardly matters?
19:01:44 <elliott> ais523: is there a rule of thumb for how many you can chop off vs. different "bands" of accuracy?
19:05:21 <fizzie> If it's a perfect hash, I would assume you can just take any n bits to get a n-bit hash.
19:05:47 <elliott> fizzie: I swear there was something cleverer for SHA-1.
19:05:58 <fizzie> I mean, they've even standardized SHA-224 and SHA-384, which are just truncated versions of SHA-256 and SHA-512.
19:06:23 <elliott> fizzie: What I was thinking about was a pastebin where the URL is just pastebin/hash-of-text.
19:07:56 <olsner> match the oldest submission whose hash starts with the given prefix?
19:15:01 <elliott> olsner: i see what you mean
19:15:15 <elliott> i sorta hate services whose urls grow over time :)
19:17:51 <fizzie> The alternative is services with a fixed number of potential things in its lifetime, though! Then you're going to have to move to elliottpastev6 URLs with more bits.
19:20:26 <elliott> fizzie: All approximately 14615016400000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 pastes.
19:21:39 <olsner> 640 000 pastes should be enough for anyone!
19:21:45 <elliott> fizzie: To be more exact (but still approximate because of collisions and whatnot), 1461501637330902918203684832716283019655932542976 pastes.
19:22:09 * Zuu steals one of olsner's pastes
19:22:11 <elliott> fizzie: Of course that's if I use the full hash, which is unlikely. :p
19:22:17 <elliott> fizzie: Well, that's SHA-1.
19:22:30 <olsner> (that is: don't make the mistake of assuming that 640 000 pastes should be enough for anyone!)
19:22:49 <Zuu> What are you guys even talking about?
19:22:51 <fizzie> elliott: So it is. Though 14615016400000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 >> 1461501637330902918203684832716283019655932542976.
19:23:11 <fizzie> (And no, that's not a right shift.)
19:23:12 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, well, I coerced Python into giving me a non-scientific form of it badly.
19:23:18 <elliott> I moved the decimal place manually and incremented the exponent and uh I'm fg.
19:23:30 <elliott> Zuu: A pastebin site that uses the hash of the text to provide the URL.
19:24:04 <Zuu> and you're discussing what hashing algo to use?
19:24:20 <elliott> nope, just the practicality of it
19:24:59 <elliott> www.beautyoftheweb.co.uk Download Internet Explorer 9 Experience the Web at It's Fullest.
19:25:24 <elliott> "As amazing as the web is, it's potential is immeasurably greater"
19:25:43 <olsner> what git does is just go "oops, there are duplicate prefixes, all your hashes are ambiguous now"
19:26:00 <Zuu> well, the 'avoiding long urls' part is just about encoding it in a suitable base, with the alphabet of characters that is allowed in an url
19:26:00 <elliott> olsner: how long are git's prefixes?
19:26:13 <elliott> Zuu: also, urls that every client will parse as a single one properly and aren't hideous...
19:26:16 <elliott> also, that still may not be long enough
19:26:20 <olsner> configurable, but the default is 8 hex-digits iirc
19:27:25 <olsner> and it will always give you a longer prefix if it would be ambiguous among the hashes present in your local repository
19:27:39 <fizzie> Wasn't it 7? Well, maybe it's 8, I just thought it was some odd number.
19:28:23 <olsner> maybe it was, does it matter?
19:30:21 <elliott> F317NzJHh3BQmRaWGC6MkbGuhao
19:31:55 <elliott> Even an 80-bit hash is a bit long; 87Iyzibyud8UZ3.
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19:35:35 <fizzie> No, it's 80 bits long.
19:38:01 <pikhq> elliott: You can probably go up to a few kilobytes of URL.
19:38:13 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, thus defeating the point of a pastebin entirely.
19:38:22 <elliott> pikhq: iirc there's a limit of about 512 anyway in something
19:38:30 <elliott> pikhq: But point is, I don't want a stupidly long URI :P
19:38:32 <fizzie> In IRC, for example. :p
19:38:57 <fizzie> Ooh, ooh, how about a pastebin where *the actual text is in the URL*? You could even make the encoding so that it's as readable as possible directly there!
19:39:27 <pikhq> fizzie: We call that the data URI scheme.
19:39:29 <elliott> fizzie: We could eliminate the need for a server! It'd be totally distributed, immutable and permanent!
19:39:32 <elliott> fizzie: We could -- fuck you pikhq
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19:40:17 <elliott> http://somepb/fbX9knm_Ugc1NbSC_5(0oW8hZ1
19:40:23 <elliott> http://somepb/fbX9knm_Ugc1NbSC_5)0oW8hZ1
19:40:36 <elliott> http://somepb/0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ-_.!~*'
19:41:20 <elliott> http://pb/0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ-_.!~*\';:@&=+$,'
19:41:41 <elliott> fizzie: Check out my 1337 hax0r code at http://somepb/=yo6ej@IdMN&c!
19:43:20 <elliott> fizzie: When prefixing SHA-1, you should right shift, right?
19:44:48 <pikhq> elliott: Now just get a country TLD to run your software! :P
19:45:10 <elliott> pikhq: How worthwhile do you think a 60-bit hash is?
19:45:21 <elliott> Theoretically, that's 1152921504606846976 pastes.
19:45:31 <elliott> And the URLs are nice and short:
19:45:33 <cpressey> i still by habit put a space after a URL if it's the last thing in parentheses -- i formed this back when mail clients weren't that smart about where URLs should stop
19:45:45 <elliott> cpressey: smartness breaks now because of wikipedia
19:45:51 <elliott> Foo_(programming_language)
19:46:25 <Vorpal> elliott, gave up on minix?
19:46:35 <cpressey> omg -- i do hope there isn't a notable programming language called Foo
19:46:36 <pikhq> Didn't realise that ( and ) were valid in URIs.
19:47:17 <cpressey> no -- but there is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuxi_Programming_Language
19:47:23 <Vorpal> <cpressey> i still by habit put a space after a URL if it's the last thing in parentheses -- i formed this back when mail clients weren't that smart about where URLs should stop <-- mine can get a bit confused if the URL is followed by a comma or semi-colon
19:47:39 <elliott> pikhq: http://utls.st/s4hnvwQAFD
19:47:41 <cpressey> Vorpal: there I put spaces too
19:47:55 <pikhq> Ah, they're reserved characters. It's only sometimes valid.
19:48:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is valid sometimes? I thought firefox "secretly" url encoded them
19:48:26 <Vorpal> but showed the non-encoded one
19:48:32 <Vorpal> same for some other browsers
19:49:01 <Vorpal> anyway, my irc client thinks that ( ends a url it seems
19:49:07 <Vorpal> should change that perhaps
19:49:11 <cpressey> Fuxi's specification is written in Chinese.
19:49:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Being a reserved character, it only needs to be percent-encoded when it has semantics in the URI scheme.
19:49:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, and when does it have such semantics?
19:49:34 <elliott> pikhq: it's valid in HTTP urls though
19:49:38 <pikhq> Depends. Pretty sure it doesn't in HTTP.
19:49:45 <elliott> pikhq: as are all of the reserved characters but ? and /
19:50:02 <elliott> although that isn't even in the reserved list
19:50:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I presume % is not a reserved char then, but some other special class?
19:50:16 <elliott> pikhq: if it's not ? or / and it's in either the reserved or unreserved characters of URIs, it's valid in an http path component
19:51:06 <pikhq> elliott: In an HTTP URI path component. The set of valid characters is larger for IRIs.
19:51:42 <elliott> although if someone made like
19:52:12 <pikhq> http://例.テスト/ should damned well be valid. :P
19:52:32 <pikhq> And of course it is.
19:52:33 <ais523> money-saving idea for US elections: just have "write-in" as an extra option on the ballot, no need to write an actual name
19:52:42 <ais523> if it actually wins, you can have another round to see who people actually wrote in
19:52:46 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about the TLD there?
19:52:49 <ais523> but may as well evaluate lazily
19:52:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: テスト is currently a valid TLD.
19:53:29 <Vorpal> ais523, does that save much money? You could do it lazy when counting the votes while still letting people write the name there?
19:53:35 <elliott> pikhq: is it "test" in kana?
19:53:36 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, the domain is http://例え.テスト/
19:53:38 <elliott> iirc that's what the others were
19:53:45 <elliott> pikhq: love how they couldn't even put, like
19:53:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, is it an alias for a normal tld?
19:54:01 <pikhq> elliott: It's "test" in the language in question.
19:54:05 <elliott> Vorpal: it's a test TLD added by ICANN
19:54:11 <elliott> Vorpal: to test new internationalised TLDs
19:54:17 <elliott> Vorpal: there's a bunch of them in various languages, all "test"
19:54:19 <elliott> with just their test domain
19:54:31 <ais523> I wonder how many browsers will write out the whole xn-- stuff?
19:54:32 <pikhq> All with http://example.test/ translated.
19:54:42 <Vorpal> elliott, so they are planning to roll out this as aliases for the traditional ccTLDs or such?
19:54:45 <elliott> ais523: mine's sane enough not to
19:54:46 <Vorpal> or as completely separate ones
19:54:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Not alias. New TLD, I think.
19:54:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: They are already rolling out new ccTLDs.
19:55:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Because the rule will be: Your domain has to be in their script.
19:55:13 <elliott> If the TLD is in the Japanese alphabets, the domain has to be.
19:55:19 <Vorpal> elliott, sure is tricky to type
19:55:22 <ais523> (also, does it work backwards, as in, can you register a name that looks like UTF-5, and have browsers translate it into Unicode?)
19:55:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Not for Japanese people.
19:55:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Or for people who can read Japanese anyway, really.
19:55:46 <elliott> It's likely they'll have input set up.
19:55:57 <elliott> ais523: that's how it works
19:56:04 <elliott> ais523: you register it in punycode, that's all there is to it
19:56:12 <elliott> ais523: and then link it to people with unicode or punycode
19:56:19 <elliott> punycode never gets translated back, I think, for security
19:56:22 <ais523> elliott: I mean, in .com or something
19:56:31 <elliott> but unicode deemed to be safe -- e.g. no cryllic "a" and the like -- is displayed
19:56:32 <ais523> I was thinking that it seemed like a phishing loophole
19:56:36 <elliott> ais523: that's done already
19:56:44 <elliott> ais523: it's already been used to demonstrate how it could be used for phishing
19:56:48 <elliott> ais523: you're like three years behind here :)
19:56:49 <pikhq> The ones currently allocated are: .中国 .中國 .مصر .香港 .ایران .الاردن .فلسطين .рф .السعودية .ලංකා .இலங்கை .台湾 .台灣 .ไทย .تونس .امارات .
19:56:52 <elliott> ais523: unicode domain names already exist
19:56:57 <Vorpal> elliott, two questions 1) how does this interact with that han unification in unicode when the browser is supposed to try to show the tld in the address bar? 2) so japan and so on get two tlds? how unfair
19:57:08 <ais523> why is getting multiple TLDs unfair?
19:57:19 <ais523> it's not like they're IPv4 addresses..
19:57:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: The PRC and ROC have 3.
19:57:28 <elliott> han unification -- people will have the right fonts installed and only the right fonts, if you visit both kinds you're fucked i guess; browsers could be clever and change font depending on TLD
19:57:34 <Vorpal> of course US has a lot
19:58:07 <pikhq> elliott: The actually *unified* Han glyphs are just obvious glyph variants anyways.
19:58:23 <pikhq> elliott: So it doesn't matter *too* much if they get rendered using a different country's preferred variant.
19:58:45 <Vorpal> it seems more reasonable to make the idn tlds aliases for the normal ones to me.
19:59:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: That would make them have to invent TLD aliases.
19:59:34 <elliott> pikhq: Japanese font pr0n: http://imgur.com/fcHiq.png. This time, no subpixel rendering, because Debian's freetype/fontconfig/etc. suck at it. :P
19:59:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm... point both NS records at the same thingy or something?
19:59:41 <pikhq> Oh, and Sri Lanka also has two different TLDs...
20:00:00 <pikhq> (they have multiple national languages)
20:00:24 <pikhq> elliott: That is astoundingly reasonable rendering.
20:00:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, for normal domains, at least in Sweden, IDN domains are almost always sold both as IDN and non-IDN. As in "åäö.se" would also include "aao.se"
20:00:44 <Vorpal> I'm not sure if you can even buy just the IDN one
20:01:03 <Vorpal> it wasn't possible when they were new at least. Not sure if that changed since then.
20:01:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Makes a bit more sense when you're just omitting diacritics.
20:01:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, true, would be hard for japan
20:01:19 <elliott> pikhq: ASTOUNDINGLY REASONABLE
20:01:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: Though IDNs haven't really taken off much in Japan; more commonly, they just use ASCII.
20:01:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Often English, as well.
20:02:00 <pikhq> And even more often Engrish.
20:02:02 <cpressey> pikhq: So Canada should get two different TLDs, because it has two official languages.
20:02:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, I can't remember seeing any Swedish IDNs in actual practical use here
20:02:11 <cpressey> Same script, more or less, but hey.
20:02:17 <pikhq> cpressey: If they used different scripts, sure.
20:02:26 <pikhq> cpressey: .ca and .カナダ
20:02:44 <elliott> "åäö" <-- this is why swedish sucks
20:03:08 <pikhq> cpressey: The ASCII TLDs are assigned based on country codes.
20:03:09 <elliott> cpressey: what do french-speaking canadians call their country?
20:03:16 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, you can get that rendering easily.
20:03:57 <cpressey> It's like an east-coast native word, anyway
20:04:07 <elliott> pikhq: First, install the Takao fonts. Then uninstall all other Japanese fonts. Settings -> Appearance -> Fonts. Enable anti-aliasing (it may look unchecked but actually is; just uncheck and recheck it in this case). Hinting: Slight. Sub-pixel order: None (you can use RGB, but the fringing is awful).
20:04:34 <elliott> Everything looks red. Or sometimes blue.
20:04:37 <pikhq> cpressey: BTW, there are actually language-specific TLDs.
20:04:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, which sometimes lead to funny results. Such as "lanstrafiken.se" (run the country side buses and some of the city buses in large parts of south Sweden). Which literally translates to "[the] lance traffic". While the proper "länstrafiken" would translate to "[the] county traffic", where "county" is a lossy translation.
20:04:45 <cpressey> "The name Canada comes from a St. Lawrence Iroquoian word, kanata, meaning "village" or "settlement"."
20:04:53 <cpressey> also, wikipedia's CSS is now stupid for me for some reason.
20:05:20 <cpressey> elliott: hovering over a link makes it white on a white background!
20:05:50 <cpressey> something broke. don't know what. don't really care
20:05:52 <elliott> cpressey: that's just a midori "what"
20:06:04 <pikhq> Lessee... .cat. For sites in the Catalan language.
20:06:23 <pikhq> Why Catalan? Who knows!
20:07:05 <cpressey> elliott: It's FF. Also I think it was the "special message from mr. wikipedia" banner doing crazy things to the rest of the page.
20:07:09 <elliott> pikhq: And here's Japanese text in OS X: http://www.wap.org/journal/dictionary/4-dict-japanese.jpg Horrible JPEG distortion, but still.
20:07:18 <elliott> cpressey: psht you are still using the silly language
20:07:57 <cpressey> I'm at work... I work at a place that makes public-facing web sites... I kind of sort of need to use Firefox.
20:08:19 <cpressey> Oh yeah, Firefox is just HELL to use.
20:08:33 <elliott> pikhq: Oh! Here's an undistorted one: http://files.streetsmartlanguagelearning.com/files/mac_dict_window.png
20:08:54 <elliott> pikhq: Also includes small text.
20:08:56 <ais523> elliott: explanation of the voting machine bug, is apparently that there's a "select your language" menu, and the default selection on the next screen is whatever has the same position as what was selected on the previous screen
20:08:59 <fizzie> I don't know why, but this immediately made me think of "do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball": http://zem.fi/~fis/do_not_taunt_the_app_store_badge.png
20:09:26 <pikhq> elliott: That's somewhat annoying.
20:09:43 <pikhq> elliott: Mincho font on screen?
20:09:46 <fizzie> ais523: If it automagically moves to the next screen after the language selection, is it sure that the "default selection" isn't just the touchscreen registering two touches?
20:09:48 <Vorpal> <elliott> pikhq: Oh! Here's an undistorted one: http://files.streetsmartlanguagelearning.com/files/mac_dict_window.png <-- I see the colour bleed in that one. It might look great on macs but definitely not on my monitor
20:09:49 <elliott> pikhq: If it's rendered in an ornate script, that's probably intentional; Dictionary uses a fancy-pants font for English too.
20:10:11 <elliott> pikhq: Besides, it's sub-pixelled enough that it looks fine, at least to my eyes.
20:10:15 <pikhq> elliott: And the Gothic font is all bold-like!
20:10:26 <pikhq> Which is, ah, really hard to read.
20:10:38 <elliott> pikhq: All text on OS X looks bold to people used to other OSes :P Note that the *colour profile* is different.
20:10:54 <elliott> pikhq: On Apple displays, everything looks a lot less heavy than it does when screenshots are viewed on standard RGB displays.
20:11:07 <pikhq> elliott: The stroke width makes it hard to read.
20:11:24 <elliott> pikhq: In my experience, strokes look a *lot* wider in screenshots than on an actual Mac. :p
20:12:17 <Vorpal> <elliott> pikhq: On Apple displays, everything looks a lot less heavy than it does when screenshots are viewed on standard RGB displays. <-- how comes?
20:12:29 <Vorpal> I mean, not all their displays are super-high-dpi
20:12:32 * elliott waits for Vorpal to use his evidently non-existent one-line scrollback
20:12:36 <pikhq> elliott: Here on my system, each and every stroke of most characters is absolutely distinct.
20:12:56 <pikhq> There *is* no blurriness.
20:12:59 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, the colour profile, right
20:13:07 <pikhq> It's like using a well-done bitmap font, but with antialiasing.
20:13:10 <elliott> pikhq: And? There's no bluriness when actually using a Mac, either.
20:13:17 <elliott> As I said. Colour profile + DPI.
20:13:41 <Vorpal> elliott, are they set for a different gamma or something?
20:13:56 <elliott> 10.6 made them use standard gamma
20:14:05 <Vorpal> elliott, so the font look changed?
20:14:07 <elliott> not everyone was happy about that :)
20:14:16 <elliott> Vorpal: well, yes, but it still isn't the standard colour profile afaik
20:14:17 <pikhq> elliott: Solidly grey chunks are *not* going to just become perfectly clear lines magically.
20:14:21 <Vorpal> anyway, presumably you could change it if you wanted
20:14:34 <Vorpal> elliott, err, the stancard colour profile is not having one :P
20:14:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean sRGB or whatever.
20:15:01 <elliott> pikhq: It's like demanding all English text be in Century Gothic because the strokes are really clear.
20:15:17 <elliott> Turns out Century Gothic usually distracts from the content because it's so sparse.
20:15:37 <pikhq> elliott: Believe me, the clarity of strokes makes it significantly easier to read on low-DPI displays.
20:15:53 <elliott> pikhq: They don't sell Macs with low-DPI displays. :P
20:16:05 <elliott> I'm not saying text in OS X looks good on anything else but an Apple display, because it doesn't.
20:16:09 <pikhq> Compared with print?
20:16:12 <elliott> Or on any OS not set to the same colour profile.
20:16:19 <elliott> pikhq: No -- but still, high DPI.
20:16:29 <pikhq> Seriously, you need a decent *printer* for your typical mincho font to come out easily readable.
20:16:33 <Vorpal> elliott, what apart from the gamma differs?
20:16:39 <elliott> pikhq: You do realise it only uses that font in Dictionary?
20:16:49 <pikhq> elliott: Better example, then?
20:16:53 <elliott> Dictionary tries to look as much like a fancy olde dictionary in its typography as possible. :P
20:17:03 <elliott> pikhq: Trying to find one.
20:17:12 <elliott> Midori loves freezing right now.
20:17:26 <cpressey> The example open-source projects written in Fuxi are all archived in .rar format.
20:17:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, I wonder how unreadable Japanese text would be with a dot matrix printer
20:17:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Not, if you used a ... dot font, I suppose.
20:17:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: On dot matrix printers, you would use just katakana.
20:18:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Probably half-width katakana, because that's all that will be supported on such old systems.
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20:23:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, why do they have so many different "alphabets"
20:23:08 <pikhq> So, 値段ー３万円 would come out as: ﾈﾀﾞﾝｰ３ﾏﾝｴﾝ
20:23:08 <cpressey> It seems like it's like C# with bits of Erlang and Prolog strewn about...
20:23:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: Kanji was first used to write Japanese, with some characters used for semantic value and some for phonetic value.
20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Then came parallel evolution: some female writers felt that this was too hard for the characters used for phonetic value, and so they started to write those characters using a highly stylised form of grass script.
20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Grass script being a hard-to-read Chinese phonetic style.
20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: This came to be known as "hiragana".
20:23:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, the latin script changed during the ages to. iirc Å and Ä changed a lot since medieval times for example
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20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Meanwhile, some Buddhist monks felt this was too hard for the characters used for phonetic value, and so they started to only write some strokes of those kanji.
20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: This came to be known as "katakana".
20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: For a long time, katakana + kanji was the normal script, with just hiragana used in some contexts (most notably poetry).
20:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Then, with Western contact came a lot of loan words. They started to use katakana for the loan words and hiragana for the native words.
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20:23:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: This practice became formalised in the 50s.
20:23:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's it.
20:23:10 <elliott> http://images.appleinsider.com/leopard-preview-071004-2.png typical japanese in the UI
20:23:10 <elliott> http://www.macobserver.com/article/2000/09/jap2.jpg strange gothic font for an email :)
20:23:13 <elliott> http://xserve.mactalk.com.au/albums/Currawong/phonetic_guide.png ridiculously bold phonetic stuff
20:23:25 <elliott> http://www.guidetojapanese.org/images/osx_ime.png strangely-bold IME -- i think some colour stuff went wrong in the screenshot or something
20:23:29 <pikhq> elliott: Not bad, but the one used here is clearer. :)
20:23:29 <elliott> the above definitely isn't representative :P
20:23:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm... okay, seems strange though. It seems strange that one didn't displace the others
20:24:23 <elliott> pikhq: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Safari_5.0_on_Macintosh.png Full screenshot, including Japanese UI and Japanese web page.
20:24:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, I mean, just look at fraktur/antiqua in Europe. In the end one of them lost.
20:24:34 <elliott> pikhq: Again, looks good only on a display of similar PPI and colour profile. :p
20:25:09 <elliott> pikhq: Since it's a laptop, it'd be even higher ppi than usual actually...
20:25:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, wait, not quite accurate. Hiragana was used for most *literature*, and katakana was used for most other things.
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20:25:26 <Vorpal> I mean, you don't see fraktur typefaces these days unless someone tried to make a point by using such a typeface
20:25:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: And then linguistic reform in the 50s changed the standard to default to hiragana and katakana for loanwords.
20:27:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: And it's not quite like using Fraktur vs. Antiqua. A bit more akin to using Cryllic vs. Latin (as in Serbian), except with a more one-to-one mapping between them.
20:28:05 <pikhq> (aside from the actual glyph forms, the rules for writing hiragana and katakana are *precisely* the same.)
20:28:15 <elliott> pikhq: Sheesh, don't even comment :P
20:28:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, out of interest, what is the average WPM rate for English and Japanese (non-romanisation that is)?
20:29:12 <elliott> Vorpal: typing japanese IS romanisation
20:29:15 <elliott> that's basically what the IME does
20:29:20 <elliott> you type romaji and it becomes kanji magically
20:29:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: Most people write romanisation and then select the write kanji or kana to use.
20:29:42 <elliott> i think it's actually that they have kana on their keyboard
20:29:48 <elliott> pikhq: in japan don't they use kana keyboards?
20:29:53 <elliott> and then that gets kanjified
20:29:55 <evincar> You can use a kana keyboard.
20:30:02 <pikhq> They *have* kana on their keyboard, but most people don't type that way.
20:30:16 <Vorpal> what is the WPM for writing by hand on paper for Japanese vs. English then
20:30:20 <elliott> pikhq: hmm, how much time is spent selecting the right kanji? :)
20:30:25 <elliott> Vorpal: "word" is rather vague i think...
20:30:32 <pikhq> elliott: Quite a bit.
20:30:49 <elliott> pikhq: sounds like a pain, but then i guess a single kanji says a lot more
20:30:51 <evincar> elliott: 'word' isn't particularly vague. They're just not whitespace-delimited.
20:30:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well I didn't use "letter" because "word" has a linguistic meaning
20:31:02 <pikhq> elliott: For common things, it's pretty easy, but for rare ones it can be annoying.
20:31:28 <pikhq> elliott: Also, fortunately most IMEs are learning, so they adjust to your writing style, making it easier over time.
20:31:29 <Vorpal> and surely Japanese has "sentences" consisting of multiple "words"?
20:31:29 <evincar> I'm happy using simplified characters when writing Chinese. ^_^
20:31:54 <pikhq> evincar: I just write in semicursive script. All problems solved!
20:32:09 <Vorpal> evincar, thus asking for WPM rate when writing English and when writing Japanese on paper shouldn't be completely impossible.
20:32:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: The answer is "it depends".
20:32:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, the time or it being a sensible concept?
20:32:54 <elliott> I think Japanese words tend to carry a lot more meaning than a single English word, though, don't they?
20:32:59 <elliott> In that case, comparing WPM would be meaningless.
20:33:03 <elliott> At least without a scaling factor.
20:33:18 <pikhq> elliott: *Can*, don't necessarily.
20:33:32 <elliott> pikhq: In typical usage? :P
20:33:48 <pikhq> elliott: It's a bit more that Japanese words are more compact on the page, simply because each morpheme is written in less space.
20:33:53 <Vorpal> elliott, what about this: write some text in both languages while measuring time using a stopwatch. Then read both texts aloud, count number of words. Divide this count with the result from the timing.
20:34:16 <elliott> Pretty sure the filthy japs speak quicker than we do :p
20:34:21 <pikhq> elliott: "Semiconductor", for instance, is "半導体"
20:34:26 <elliott> at least if the interwebs is anything to go by
20:34:30 <Vorpal> elliott, quicker than a CNN news anchor?
20:34:44 <evincar> elliott: People have the same basic average speaking rate regardless of language.
20:34:51 <evincar> I read a study on that a while back, I'm sure.
20:34:52 <elliott> evincar: I'm talking about cultures.
20:35:05 <elliott> There *is* variation between them, I distinctly recall a data set.
20:35:05 <evincar> Oh, well, the Spanish talk fast. :P
20:35:23 <pikhq> elliott: Japanese merely appears to be spoken a bit more quickly because there's not as much variation in the speaking rate.
20:35:38 <evincar> Yeah, moraic timing is excellent.
20:35:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, English is rather verbose. I often find that on the average, writing the same information in Swedish takes less space.
20:36:07 <elliott> While we're on about languages, this is a perfect time to this slab of pure awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUi6UEQh00
20:36:20 <pikhq> elliott: Each mora is pronounced with about the same timing as each other one, unlike English where the mora timing can change quite dramatically.
20:36:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, semiconductor = halvledare for example
20:36:33 <elliott> (Points to whoever can figure it out.)
20:36:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: Japanese is also often rather verbose, though this is a function of *politeness* rather than being inherent.
20:36:57 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUi6UEQh00 :|
20:37:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: "O-ame ga furu ni narimasu" vs. "ame furu", for instance. ("It's going to rain.")
20:37:56 <elliott> pikhq: if I said "ame furu" to someone would they slap me?
20:38:03 <elliott> or disown my family and all its pigs too?
20:38:16 <pikhq> elliott: Depends on context.
20:38:18 <cpressey> "Fuck you, it's going to rain."
20:38:34 <elliott> pikhq: I'm talking to the emperor.
20:38:45 <elliott> Or $insert_beloved_figure_of_pseudo_authority_but_great_respect
20:39:09 <pikhq> elliott: You would be beheaded for having the audacity to claim to be like unto the emperor.
20:39:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, Swedish is more expressive when it comes to whole sentences than English. = "Svenska är mer uttrycksfullt än engelska när det gäller hela meningar." though the difference isn't drastic here. But that was quite a close translation, it does sound slightly awkward in Swedish.
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20:39:23 <elliott> pikhq: What about, I don't know, a politician
20:39:32 <elliott> In a Q&A where I randomly decided to tell him about the weather
20:39:35 <elliott> Perhaps it's some deep metaphor
20:39:42 <pikhq> elliott: You'd look like a bit of an asshole.
20:39:42 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: "O-ame ga furu ni narimasu" vs. "ame furu", for instance. ("It's going to rain.") <-- what is the extra information in the former?
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20:39:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: Incredibly respectful.
20:40:01 <elliott> Vorpal: "I bow to you superior one oh I am so gracious to be at your feet" or something to that effect.
20:40:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, doesn't translate easily?
20:40:08 <elliott> Half of Japanese is ass-kissing :P
20:40:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: "The most honorable rain shall come to fall." gets the basic sense across.
20:40:42 <elliott> the most honourable rain :D
20:40:47 <elliott> pikhq: What if you hate rain?
20:40:48 <pikhq> Vs. "Rain'll fall."
20:40:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, respectfulness against the bloody weather
20:40:56 <pikhq> elliott: Doesn't matter.
20:41:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: The idea is that you are putting yourself below just about everything.
20:41:09 <elliott> pikhq: "The most honourable rain shall come to fall. I fucking hate rain."
20:41:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, now I know why lakonism wasn't invented in Japan. :P
20:42:23 <pikhq> elliott: "O-ame ga furu ni narimasu. O-ame ga dai-kirai de gozaimasu." "The most honourable rain shall come to fall. There exists a great hatred towards the most honourable rain."
20:42:36 <Gregor> elliott: Run it yourself X-P
20:42:43 <elliott> pikhq: How do you say "I fucking hate the rain" really offensively?
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20:42:57 <cpressey> and the cool thing is that X-P actually looks like Gregor's face
20:42:58 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, was it a lakonism?
20:43:00 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/hg/ and .../fshg/
20:43:11 <elliott> Vorpal: It's probably "laconism".
20:43:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yep that is it
20:43:20 <elliott> Gregor: Where does fshg go? :p
20:43:37 <pikhq> elliott: "AME DAI-KIRAI ZE'".
20:43:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought it was the same in English, what with it being a loan-word from elsewhere for both languages.
20:43:57 <pikhq> elliott: The yelling is needed to make it offensive rather than just presuming casualness.
20:44:11 <elliott> pikhq: Is that what you'd say if you were the Emperor and you were speaking to, I don't know, a speck of dirt?
20:44:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Greek by way of Latin.
20:44:17 <elliott> And trying to be really offensive?
20:44:29 <elliott> Vorpal: When in doubt, replace k with c :P
20:44:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, what happened to hackego/egobot?
20:44:36 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, the Emperor can use the plain form to pretty much everyone.
20:44:51 <Gregor> Vorpal: Codu is slowdu. I took them down for the indefinite future.
20:44:51 <elliott> pikhq: Right, but say he's trying to portray his immense superiority, and *also* be really fucking offensive.
20:44:52 <pikhq> elliott: Except diplomats, heads of state, and the like.
20:44:57 <Vorpal> elliott, and f with ph
20:45:23 <Gregor> Maybe it's not slow now?
20:45:37 <Vorpal> well not always, but at the beginning of word components
20:45:47 <elliott> Is /s end-sarcasm or something?
20:45:54 <elliott> Because it sort of defeats the point of sarcasm.
20:45:59 <Gregor> I spoke too soon, forgot to conv=fdatasync
20:46:03 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, in that case he'd bring out the formal speech, referring to *himself* in the terms used to indicate respect.
20:46:30 <elliott> pikhq: But does that have the same force as "fuck"-laden English text?
20:46:39 <pikhq> elliott: No, it has much more force.
20:46:52 <elliott> pikhq: Excellent. How do you say "I fucking hate the rain" like that? :P
20:46:54 <cpressey> Well fungot and storkbot are still here.
20:46:55 <fungot> cpressey: mathmaticians come up with a better understanding of what is primitive functionality in the language itself
20:47:22 <cpressey> fungot: you're losing it. that almost made sense.
20:47:22 <fungot> cpressey: how long have you been converted yet?? is it tc? i don't think
20:47:45 <elliott> Gregor: Now get them up :P
20:47:50 <pikhq> elliott: "Wagahai wa o-ame ga furu to goran ni narimasu ze!" "We are most honorably observing that the most honorable rain shall come to fall!"
20:47:57 <Gregor> <Gregor> I spoke too soon, forgot to conv=fdatasync
20:48:05 <Gregor> 10485760 bytes (10 MB) copied, 46.3802 s, 226 kB/s
20:48:10 <elliott> pikhq: Nonono, that's the first sentence.
20:48:16 <elliott> pikhq: I mean how do you say "I fucking hate the rain>" like that?
20:48:26 <elliott> This is part of a greater plan, I assure you.
20:49:15 <pikhq> elliott: "Wagahai wa o-ame ga daikirai ga aru ni narimasu!" "We have come to possess a great hatred towards the most honorable rain!"
20:49:32 <elliott> pikhq: ...but surely calling the rain honourable puts yourself below the rain?
20:49:40 <Vorpal> isn't Finnish really terse iirc?
20:49:44 <pikhq> elliott: It's more complex than that.
20:49:51 <pikhq> elliott: Here, it implies it's his rain.
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20:50:06 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: "AME DAI-KIRAI ZE'".
20:50:08 <elliott> Is the apostrophe intentional?
20:50:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> I guess not.
20:50:30 <pikhq> It indicates a glottal stop at the end of the sentence.
20:50:37 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, now rate which of these is more insane:
20:50:39 <elliott> O-ame ga furu ni narimasu. AME DAI-KIRAI ZE'!
20:50:40 <elliott> O-ame ga furu ni narimasu. Wagahai wa o-ame ga daikirai ga aru ni narimasu!
20:51:02 <pikhq> It makes it look like you suddenly went mad.
20:51:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's not terse; we tend to use less words compared to, say, English, due to the lack of all those prepositions, but on the other hand our words are longer. In fact I do thing in general the equivalent Finnish string is longer than English; but I can't quite recall if that's true.
20:51:07 <elliott> pikhq: Now to learn how to pronounce that, travel to Japan, and go to see the emperor.
20:51:21 <pikhq> Rather than looking like you are intending to perform a coup d'etat.
20:51:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, don't your words express more?
20:51:47 <elliott> pikhq: I think I love Japanese.
20:52:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, also, lack of prepositions? How do you tell something that they should look for the keys on top of the table as opposed to under the table then?
20:52:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, the inflections express stuff, but they're still more characters; the common prepositions are short, anyway.
20:52:40 <pikhq> elliott: It gives you a lot of room to insult people.
20:52:45 <pikhq> elliott: Or ass-kiss.
20:53:05 <elliott> pikhq: What would happen if you alternated between the two forms in the first line every sentence?
20:53:12 <elliott> pikhq: Except, uh, maybe not shouting them, just to keep it slightly sane.
20:53:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: There are 15 different cases for nouns; those replace some of the prepositions. There are still *some*, of course.
20:53:39 <pikhq> elliott: Are you familiar with the milkman conspiracy part of Psychonauts?
20:53:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: But for example "in the box" → "laatikossa", "on the box" → "laatikolla".
20:53:58 <elliott> pikhq: I am not! I want to play Psychonauts sometime.
20:54:05 <pikhq> elliott: You should. It is amazing.
20:54:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, how regular are they? I mean, is it like verbs in English where you lots of ones that don't follow the standard pattern
20:54:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: A random day (2004-07-22) of the Europarl parallel corpus is 136698 bytes for English, 140700 for Finnish; not a great difference there.
20:54:45 <elliott> pikhq: So is using the, uh, crazy direct forms of language as part of, say, a sitcom (crazy impolite guy? Ho ho ho) permissable on Japanese TV? Or are they US-style in their insaneness?
20:54:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, has it been translated to Swedish as well?
20:55:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: 142590 bytes for 'sv'.
20:56:10 <fizzie> (There's da, de, el, en, es, fi, fr, it, nl, pt and sv at least in this set.)
20:56:27 <elliott> fizzie: What's the shortest?
20:56:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess the Swedish is rather bureaucratic?
20:56:53 <fizzie> I'd take a longer sample, but for some reason the number of files in the subdirs for different languages are different, so I'm not sure they'd be comparable.
20:57:47 <pikhq> elliott: It's actually the norm in a lot of anime.
20:58:01 <fizzie> elliott: http://p.zem.fi/europarl-wc -- that's with "wc -c" which might be more fair than counting bytes, assuming these are encoded in UTF-8; not entirely sure about that.
20:58:04 <elliott> pikhq: Why didn't I guess that anime would be the one to do the crazy thing? :P
20:58:19 <fizzie> Oh, it's -m for chars, -c for bytes.
20:58:29 <elliott> Yeah, wc makes little sense :P
20:58:30 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/europarl-wc-m in that case.
20:58:42 <pikhq> elliott: Also, the very direct forms of language are entirely permissible between people who know each other rather well, which would come up a lot on TV anyways.
20:58:55 <elliott> fizzie: Same ordering though.
20:59:11 <fizzie> elliott: They're not sorted. :p
20:59:20 <fizzie> Just a sec, let me put a sort in the pipe.
20:59:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, memory tip: wc -c is for char as in the C data type. wc -m is for Multibyte
20:59:31 <pikhq> Not to mention criminals, who will just screw politeness.
20:59:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it makes some sense that way ^
20:59:49 <fizzie> Okay, now they are sorted.
21:00:03 <pikhq> ... Or people from Hokkaido, where grammatical politeness does not exist. :D
21:00:04 <elliott> Vorpal: It's still stupid.
21:00:08 <elliott> fizzie: Your pastes are mutable? :|
21:00:18 <Vorpal> elliott, certainly, but at least you can remember which flag to use that way
21:00:20 <elliott> pikhq: Don't the yakuza sort of follow a really warped version of Japanese politeness?
21:00:23 <fizzie> elliott: Yes; it needs a "--force" command-line flag, though. :p
21:00:32 <elliott> pikhq: Also, why do I get the feeling that Hokkaido is the butt of quite a few jokes...
21:00:48 <pikhq> elliott: Yes. To most people, the yakuza just use crude language.
21:01:11 <pikhq> elliott: It's also mostly farmland.
21:01:13 <Vorpal> <pikhq> ... Or people from Hokkaido, where grammatical politeness does not exist. :D <-- that is one of the islands right?
21:01:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: Far-north island.
21:01:26 <Vorpal> more island than the rest of japan I mean
21:01:27 <elliott> pikhq: the yakuza is amusing
21:01:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: Also a prefecture.
21:01:33 <elliott> pikhq: like, the extra branch of the government!
21:01:36 <Vorpal> arguably all of japan consists of islands
21:01:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: Largest prefecture. Split into sub-prefectures.
21:02:06 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Map_of_Japan_with_highlight_on_02edit_Hokkaido_prefecture.svg
21:02:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well IMO the difference between continents and islands is a bit arbitrary :P
21:02:22 <pikhq> elliott: Ah, the yakuza. The remains of feudalism.
21:02:46 <elliott> "The continent of BRITAIN!"
21:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, Australia sure as hell looks like an island, but isn't. And then why is Greenland still an island...
21:03:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Actually, the notion of continents is mostly arbitrary.
21:03:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Australia does not look like an island...
21:03:10 <Vorpal> elliott, so is Greenland!
21:03:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Fun fact: The continent isn't Australasia any more.
21:03:19 <elliott> It got renamed. To Australia.
21:03:38 <Vorpal> elliott, it was called "Australasia" before? How long ago?
21:03:48 <elliott> Um, ages ago. I guess it was always a bit vague.
21:03:58 <elliott> "a region of Oceania: Australia, New Zealand, the island of New Guinea, and neighbouring islands in the Pacific Ocean (Island Melanesia, potentially including Wallacea)."
21:04:05 <elliott> But people used it to refer to the continent that is Australia all the time.
21:04:20 <elliott> At least that was my perception of things.
21:04:34 <Vorpal> right, you see how confused the whole business is
21:04:35 <pikhq> I prefer the geologic definition of continent.
21:04:41 <fizzie> Re the -c and -m versions, it's nice how el jumps from clear last place (179624 bytes, vs. 155610 for the second-last) to first (101886 chars, vs. 133489 on second); Greek and UTF-8 is not very byte-wise effective.
21:04:46 <pikhq> Which is based on tectonic plates.
21:05:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, but sometimes the borders of that cross continents
21:05:33 <elliott> pikhq: How prominent are the yakuza anyway?
21:05:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, for example, wouldn't california be on a different continent than much of the rest of "mainland" USA then?
21:05:59 <elliott> Like, in reality, not whatever Wikipedia says. :p
21:06:03 <pikhq> elliott: Fairly *prominent*, but their criminal activities aren't.
21:06:15 <pikhq> elliott: They are also entirely legitimate businessmen.
21:06:23 <elliott> pikhq: Who just happen to be criminals :P
21:06:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: Only a small part.
21:06:46 <pikhq> elliott: They basically run sumo.
21:06:59 <pikhq> elliott: Not for any criminal reasons; they just like sumo.
21:07:05 <elliott> pikhq: That counts as being a criminal if you ask me :P
21:07:32 <pikhq> And you can find them in the phonebook.
21:07:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, also that you said about Hokkaido above, was that true? Wouldn't that cause a lot of awkwardness when they interact with the rest of Japan?
21:07:59 <elliott> Vorpal: "Ha ha, those crazy Hokkai...dens!"
21:08:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because of popular media, they're *aware* of politeness.
21:08:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's just not the norm there.
21:08:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know how much dialects differ, but if you are say, visiting Tokyo and go into a grocery and ask for something...
21:08:45 <pikhq> What's more likely to get them is the complete lack of gender differences in language.
21:09:07 <pikhq> And aside from that, it's essentially Standard Japanese.
21:09:27 <elliott> "Oh, I'm fucking sorry, am I being impolite, you snivelling little piece of shit cunt? I am the lowest thing, sorry, the most high majesty of dirt I would honour would it spit in my face; I humbly bow to you, o greatest one, and serve you dearly; I swear on my pitiful life that I shall forever be faithful to you, great master."
21:09:36 <elliott> "Am I being impolite? Sorry!"
21:09:39 <Vorpal> elliott, like, forgetting to call the, uh, salad or whatever, honourable
21:09:51 <elliott> Vorpal: HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE MIGHTY SALAD
21:10:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: In most contexts, you can just use teineigo, the "normal" level of politeness, which is trivially learned in 5 minutes.
21:10:46 <elliott> IF ANYONE WANTS TO TOTALLY REQUEST FEATURES FOR MY KERNEL DO IT NOW :p
21:10:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah, but old habits are hard to get rid of. Since they are still speaking Japanese it would be even trickier than English vs. Swedish differences
21:11:04 <pikhq> (replace the -u ending of verbs with -imasu, conjugate that instead, and use "desu" instead of "da", and the sentence *must* end in -imasu or desu. Voila.)
21:11:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I decided that it's easier to make a simple unix-ish kernel than it is to get linux 0.01 working :p
21:12:02 <elliott> I'll still do the latter, but still.
21:12:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, wait, isn't that a meme?
21:12:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Desu" is the ordinary polite copula.
21:12:52 <pikhq> "da" is the plain copula, and "de gozaimasu" is the formal polite copula.
21:12:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I think desu just means [polite] :P
21:13:07 <pikhq> (and the no-longer used formal plain copula: "de gozaru")
21:13:16 <elliott> "It originated with a character in Rozen Maiden who would always end her sentences with DESU the emphatic form of desu. She often appears in image macros-desu featuring one red eye and one green eye and a green dress. She has the habit of killing-desu people with a watering-can. Her name in DESUDESU the anime is Suiseiseki (soo-see-seh-SEK-kee), and she's a doll or some weird anime shit. The excessive use of a polite form of greeting is ironic beca
21:13:17 <elliott> ut of all the Rozen Maiden characters Suiseiseki is the most impolite to Jun, the human to whom they are attached. 4chanians forgot how to spell her name, and just referred to her as Desu."
21:13:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, it seems like Hokkaido is saner then most of the rest of japan.
21:13:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, at least when it comes to language
21:13:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: The politeness and gender differences are actually recent adoptions to most dialects of Japanese.
21:13:58 <pikhq> In fact, gender differences are a recent *invention*...
21:14:27 <Vorpal> elliott, eyes like that.... a ship undercover!
21:14:46 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkVYHUMCCwc oh god it broke my brain
21:14:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, not having gender differences is quite sane
21:15:00 <pikhq> (it's not exactly often that a peasant would actually talk to someone that's significantly *higher* than them in stature...)
21:15:52 <pikhq> Vorpal: The gender differences developed as, essentially, an analog to valley-girl speak. Which got formalised in most dialects for hysterical raisins.
21:16:15 <elliott> *valspeak, totally the cooler name
21:16:17 <olsner> om and I have only watched one minute of this thing... my brain will definitely break until I've seen it all
21:16:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, "valley-girl speak"?
21:16:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I only heard that name before
21:16:31 <elliott> olsner: it'll break after that too
21:16:37 <elliott> it's still going in my head
21:16:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Like, yeah, totally!"
21:16:46 <olsner> desu desu desu desu desu
21:16:55 <elliott> pikhq: That is, like, so, like, oh my gawd.
21:16:57 <pikhq> Said as vapidly as possible.
21:17:59 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkVYHUMCCwc
21:18:01 <cpressey> I'm a little disturbed that my idiolect contains a fair number of borrowings from valley-girl speak.
21:18:12 <Vorpal> elliott, yes what about it?
21:18:17 <elliott> cpressey: i've just decided to decide that i totally invented it first.
21:18:23 <elliott> Vorpal: it's still playing in my head even after it's finished
21:18:28 <elliott> in response to olsner saying his brain will un-break afterwards
21:18:34 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it sound?
21:18:40 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkVYHUMCCwc
21:18:47 <pikhq> cpressey: American vernacular has obtained a fair number of such borrowings.
21:18:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no headphones or speakers handy here
21:18:52 <olsner> elliott: actually I meant break *before*
21:18:59 <elliott> Vorpal: it sounds like "desu" 527 times
21:19:06 <olsner> obviously it had already started at that time
21:19:11 <elliott> on various places in the pitch spectrum on the high end
21:19:21 <pikhq> MOTTO DESU GA HITSUYOU!
21:19:27 <Vorpal> elliott, damn, why can't I get you to say "desu" to me without quotes so I can say "why thank you, no need to be so polite"
21:19:29 <pikhq> (MOAR DESU IS NEEDED)
21:19:35 <Vorpal> elliott, that was my plan all along the last half-screen
21:19:43 <elliott> Vorpal: desu desu desu desu desu desu desu
21:19:50 <elliott> pikhq: please tell me how to say "fucking cunt [desu]"
21:19:54 <elliott> I will use it for great good
21:20:04 <elliott> BOY THE EMPEROR IS GONNA BE SO PISSED
21:20:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it doesn't work now any more that you know my plan :P
21:20:07 <pikhq> elliott: Baka busu desu!
21:20:21 <elliott> pikhq: Baka? Isn't that... mild?
21:20:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, how do you say that in a honourable way?
21:20:27 <elliott> Does Japanese have any real curses? :P
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21:20:48 <pikhq> elliott: Japanese has very few curses. Most of it comes from insufficiently polite.
21:21:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, like "the honourable act of <...> the most honourable <...>" or such
21:21:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: O-baka o-busu na hito de gozaimasu!
21:21:12 <elliott> pikhq: So is that like saying, what, "Dear sir, fucking cunt, [polite]"?
21:21:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, does it sound as screwy as it would in English?
21:21:35 * elliott tries to make http://www.cs.technion.ac.il/~danken/kanjidic.html give him the kanji for "baka busu desu"
21:21:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: Baka and busu are inherently insults.
21:21:46 <elliott> pikhq: So does the "desu" actually make it a politeish sentence that's horribly offensive?
21:21:55 <elliott> pikhq: I mean, does it actually have the horrible/nice juxtaposition?
21:22:11 <pikhq> elliott: Baka is mildly insulting. Busu is *incredibly* insulting.
21:22:26 <elliott> pikhq: And the desu is nice?
21:22:43 <elliott> pikhq: So is it like "gosh-darned cunt" or "gosh-darned FUCKINGCUNT, sir"? :p
21:22:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, are they sexual curses? I mean, "fucking" as a curse does not translate very well to Swedish, though we actually imported "fucking" as a semi-loanword in slang....
21:23:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: I don't know of any sexual curses, no.
21:23:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, so what do baka/busu mean then if directly translated?
21:23:40 <elliott> pikhq: I can't find a romaji -> kanji thing that works ;__;
21:24:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Stupid hag," roughly.
21:24:17 <elliott> pikhq: I NEED'ST KANJI ;_;
21:24:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, in a gender neutral way?
21:24:36 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably there is some tool that people use for input as you mentioned above
21:24:46 <elliott> Vorpal: you have to disambiguate though :P
21:25:05 <olsner> låter som att o-baka o-busu betyder typ idiotkärring
21:25:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well, maybe that is why there are no good completely automatic ones
21:25:29 <Vorpal> olsner, varför på svenska?
21:25:39 <Vorpal> olsner, och varifrån kom prefixet o-
21:25:55 <elliott> pikhq: There were a few "baka" kanjis, I picked the first. :p
21:26:03 <olsner> Vorpal: I think o- means long o here, basically a prefix for 'big'
21:26:15 <pikhq> elliott: Second one there.
21:26:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, what do the other alternatives mean?
21:26:34 <pikhq> Oh, wait, the one you picked first *was* right, just not the normal one used...
21:26:36 <olsner> but swedish because idiotkärring is swedish so there's no point in putting the rest of the sentence in non-swedish
21:26:49 <pikhq> As is the second. Huh.
21:26:49 <elliott> pikhq: Terrible pun according to dictionary: デスです
21:27:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: Okay, they're apparently archaicisms for the same.
21:27:09 <Vorpal> olsner, idiotic hag just doesn't have the same feeling
21:27:34 <elliott> pikhq: So is "馬鹿ブスです" right? :p
21:27:58 <elliott> pikhq: Now let's see how my friend-who-is-sort-of-idly-learning-Japanese-at-a-snail's-pace reacts :p
21:28:00 <pikhq> ("baka" is a loan word from *Sanskrit*, and so doesn't have any actual semantically-related kanji)
21:28:08 <elliott> pikhq: Is "デスです" indeed a (terrible) pun?
21:28:21 <elliott> pikhq: It gives both of them for "desu".
21:28:25 <pikhq> elliott: "It is 'is'."
21:28:39 <elliott> ですdesu (aux)- polite copula in Japanese
21:29:00 <pikhq> That is how you transcribe "death" into Japanese.
21:29:11 <pikhq> I really wouldn't notice that outside of context.
21:29:23 <elliott> pikhq: "ですデスです" -- can this be translated as "[Polite copula] is death?" :P
21:29:30 <elliott> As a sort of revolutionary linguistic statement.
21:29:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, it's a transcription of "death".
21:29:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, why not translate the word? Surely Japanese has some word for "ceased to be alive"
21:29:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah, several.
21:30:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, so why on earth transcribe it
21:30:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: They use English like English uses French, Latin, and Greek.
21:30:40 <pikhq> Well, English and Chinese.
21:31:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Lemme just tell you how crazy it gets...
21:31:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, but for something as common as that concept I'm a bit surprised at that
21:31:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: Their unemployment office is called "Hello, Work!".
21:31:35 <pikhq> Honest. That's the name.
21:31:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, is this a hello kitty joke or something?
21:32:16 <pikhq> Vorpal: Anyways, it's more common by far to use 死ぬ or 亡く or お亡くになる for "to die".
21:32:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, in Sweden "Englification" of names tend to be slightly more sensible at least
21:33:03 <elliott> pikhq: DUDE ISN'T MY TERRIBLE REVOLUTIONARY LINGUISTIC PUN GOOD
21:33:17 <pikhq> elliott: No, it's not valid.
21:33:23 <pikhq> elliott: "デスはです。" There.
21:33:28 <pikhq> elliott: (desu wa desu.)
21:33:49 <elliott> pikhq: So would anyone actually be able to interpret that as the hilarious pun and linguistic statement that it is?
21:33:59 <elliott> pikhq: Also, isn't that reversed?
21:34:03 <olsner> pikhq: "hello work", literally, in english?
21:34:04 <elliott> It was meant to be "[polite copula] is death".
21:34:22 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, "ですはデスです。"
21:34:43 <elliott> pikhq: Chance of an intelligent Japanese native speaker getting that pun?
21:35:05 <pikhq> Higher if said just right.
21:36:53 <Vorpal> though the name changes tend to move towards making the name pretty much meaningless. Just consider Banverket -> Infranord. The former is pretty self descriptive in Swedish. It is clear it does something related to railways. (in fact, maintain/own the actual railways and related infrastructure), the later just ends up like "infrastructure north" which could be anything: railways, roads, telephony, you n
21:36:55 <pikhq> elliott: Otherwise, you'd just be saying "'Is' is 'is'."
21:37:03 <pikhq> elliott: Pitch accent.
21:37:13 <fizzie> Just for the record, here's a better count: all files that exist in all language subdirs, and with some in-band metadata removed: http://p.zem.fi/europarl-count
21:37:37 <fizzie> (Also a longish Perl oneliner.)
21:37:59 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, very high.
21:38:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, didn't you say that there were different number of files?
21:38:38 <cpressey> Vorpal: that sounds more like "Newspeakification".
21:38:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, that's why "all files that exist in all language subdirs".
21:38:48 <Vorpal> cpressey, they often coincide.
21:39:10 <fizzie> Maybe s/all language subdirs/every language subdir/.
21:39:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh I missed the "exists in all" bit
21:39:33 <olsner> yay, japanese fonts installed
21:39:36 <elliott> pikhq: I am communicating in Japanese like BRICKS ON FIRE
21:39:43 <elliott> olsner: if not, remove them and install takao instead
21:39:46 <fizzie> I don't know what's up with the missing files; perhaps their official interpreter for the corresponding languages was sick or something?
21:39:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm... that could mean mechanical pencil?
21:39:55 <olsner> in hindsight, the reason japanese characters didn't work is pretty obvious
21:41:16 <fizzie> The europarl corpus page itself has word-wise comparisons between English and every other language: http://www.statmt.org/europarl/
21:41:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm as a reference point, how many chars in the first book from Tolkien's famous trilogy?
21:41:38 <olsner> elliott: but the takao fonts are more than twice as large as the sazanami fonts
21:41:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, the numbers look large but it is hard to know without something to compare with
21:42:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't think I have an e-text of that, but the whole five-part HHGTTG trilogy has 1574087 characters.
21:42:52 <fizzie> So the Europarl corpus has about a hundred times that.
21:43:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, how many years is it from?
21:43:07 <elliott> pikhq: 低能者女性器糞 -- this is why you never let me near a dictionary
21:43:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: From April 1996 to October 2006, approximately.
21:44:09 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I only seem to have dejavu, freefont and the usual X bitmap fonts on here, yet that renders quite well
21:44:22 <Vorpal> well, not as boxes at least
21:44:36 <Vorpal> elliott, they look antialiased
21:44:40 <pikhq> elliott: ... The *hell* is that supposed to be?
21:44:49 <fizzie> "It wasn't even the climax of the book, because there wasn't one. The character died about a third of the way through the penultimate chapter of the book, and the rest of it was just more stuff about road-mending. The book just finished dead at the one hundred thousandth word, because that was how long books were on Bartledan."
21:44:52 <olsner> oh, hhgttg is only 800-something pages in all
21:44:59 <elliott> pikhq: It got a "fuck you" out of my friend, but that might have been because he's busy. :P
21:45:01 <fizzie> (Talking about book lengths and hhgttg reminded me of that.)
21:45:12 <elliott> pikhq: No, wait: "Are you calling me a man paper moon 14 person heterosexual goods something"
21:45:20 <pikhq> elliott: "Unintelligent-person birth-canal shit"
21:45:41 <elliott> "You're a birth-canal shit."
21:46:10 <olsner> "You're just a turd that came out the wrong way."
21:46:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, quoted from memory?
21:46:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, from the same files I counted the character numbers from.
21:47:03 <fizzie> Since I was in the directory already and so on.
21:47:45 <Vorpal> strange it was a multiple of 10
21:47:55 <Vorpal> I mean, you wouldn't expect that base 10 would be very common at all
21:48:22 <Vorpal> (the bit about "one hundred thousandth word" I meant)
21:48:39 <fizzie> Well, the Bartledan people very really very much like humans.
21:48:49 <fizzie> That's why Arthur went there, after all.
21:49:05 <Vorpal> oh right, it was from that bit
21:49:41 <cpressey> < elliott> pikhq: 低能者女性器糞 -- this is why you never let me near a dictionary <-- fizzie, make fungot do this sort of thing please.
21:49:42 <fungot> cpressey: this reminds me of captain pirk, too.
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21:50:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw I wouldn't think that europarl would be representative for "normal" usage of the languages
21:50:58 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
21:51:03 <fungot> Vorpal: may i commence by extending my congratulations once more to the expected trade liberalisation for its own common fisheries policy cover the main points on the agenda of multilateral trade negotiations, the council and commission present here. for that, we believe that european union sanctions had had the courage in january to approve disbursement, eu aid is already a legal requirement in the directive and the vertical d
21:51:09 <Vorpal> that is not very normal English :P
21:51:27 <fungot> elliott: mr president, a french person can purchase software from an american company exempt from vat, whereas an american making a similar acquisition from a french administrative tradition, and in particular, the commission has forwarded this communication on improving the working conditions of all those who have hearing difficulties who could have imagined such an achievement even a year ago today, together with european uni
21:51:42 <Vorpal> non-representative word length and so on
21:51:55 -!- augur has joined.
21:52:40 <cpressey> heck, if i can figure out a cheap way to get a random Han character, I'll make storkbot do it.
21:52:45 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:53:24 <Vorpal> cpressey, err, rand() % NUMBER_OF_HAN_CHARS_IN_UNICODE + CODEPOINT_OF_FIRST_HAN_CHAR ?
21:53:39 <Vorpal> that will be somewhat biased probably
21:53:44 <Vorpal> but you get the general idea surely
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21:55:07 <cpressey> Vorpal: a) is it contiguous? b) give me those numbers
21:55:17 <elliott> cpressey: http://fileformat.info for all unicode info
21:55:25 <elliott> specifically http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/index.htm
21:55:29 <elliott> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/index.htm
21:55:37 <cpressey> elliott: this will take years to research
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21:56:12 <elliott> cpressey: just include everything with CJK in it that isn't, like, random punctuation
21:57:05 <cpressey> also, apparently, it's not continguous, or at least, i am confuse by it.
21:57:38 <cpressey> guess I could just take from http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/cjk_unified_ideographs/utf8test.htm
21:58:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Probably not (representative), but it's the only real parallel corpus I happened to have.
21:58:35 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Vorpal: a) is it contiguous? b) give me those numbers <-- a) I thought so. b) no idea, but should be easy to find
21:58:45 <fizzie> Maybe our machine translation folks have better ones.
21:59:08 <elliott> cpressey: i'm getting a list of ranges
22:00:58 <cpressey> my font doesn't support a lot of them outside the block i gave
22:01:07 <cpressey> in fact it doesn't do all of that block either
22:01:12 <cpressey> but it does the vast majority of it
22:02:56 <fizzie> I could try to stick something into fungot, except that the current tokenizer probably won't quite grok Japanese/Chinese/whatevernese, esp. if it doesn't have whitespace between word-like units.
22:02:56 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, first of all had to be found as identified and stated by mr ford, you are asking us for: that we provide a framework for the services sector is extremely diverse and could be implemented fairly quickly and give rise to two judgements against turkey.
22:03:26 <elliott> cpressey: it appears that not all those characters are allocated
22:03:47 <fizzie> I've actually thought about putting some Finnish in every now and then, but haven't, since I guess most of the hilariosity would sort of be wasted on you foreign devils.
22:04:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could put Swedish in
22:04:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, that would be a somewhat larger group of people
22:04:46 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:05:03 <Vorpal> (very very early morning tomorrow)
22:07:06 <fizzie> Heh, here's a set of 10000 SMS messages.
22:07:25 <fizzie> http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~rpnlpir/downloads/corpora/smsCorpus/ -- from volunteers.
22:07:57 <fizzie> <message id="181"><text>Leave it wif me lar... <DC> wan to carry meh so heavy... Is da num 98321561 familiar to <FC>?</text> ...
22:08:01 <fizzie> Hah, it's all like that.
22:08:20 <fizzie> I'll add a ^style sms to fungot some day soon; then he'll be just like a real teenager.
22:08:21 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, in ten years, people and efforts by the eu. we also fully support the commission strategy. there is also the development and implementing regulations of an interinstitutional agreement you will have to collect enough money to provide for clean boats which hardly make any noise or hardly produce any exhaust, which do not really know about the proposals that are now underway.
22:08:55 <fizzie> "Y so late but i need to go n get da laptop..." "Dunno lei <FC> all decide lor. How abt leona? Oops i tot ben is going n i msg him." "Nothing but we jus tot u would ask cos u ba gua... But we went mt faber yest... Yest jus went out already mah so today not going out... Jus call lor..."
22:09:02 <fizzie> What, it really *is* like this.
22:09:14 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...).
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22:09:27 <fizzie> I thought all the flab about horrible "SMS-English" was just hype.
22:09:40 <fizzie> "Okie but i scared u say i fat... Then u dun wan me already..."
22:09:52 <fizzie> fungot: Would you like to be able to talk like that?
22:09:52 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, the safety of the european union
22:10:30 <fizzie> Sorry, I mean I "tot" that.
22:11:18 <elliott> cpressey: GUESS WHAT I'M WRITING MY OWN OF NOW
22:11:30 <fizzie> "But u muz tell me wat u wan to noe... Easier 4 me to ask..."
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22:16:38 <cpressey> elliott: Markov chain assembler?
22:19:06 <cpressey> elliott: sewage treatment plant management system
22:21:56 <cpressey> elliott: BytePusher implementation?
22:25:51 <fizzie> (A duplicate may come in handy.)
22:28:30 <elliott> cpressey: btw ruby "almost" has a spec
22:28:42 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.rubyspec.org/ it's executable! :p
22:32:34 <cpressey> elliott: sort of more of a conformancy test suite than a spec, but ok
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22:32:59 <elliott> cpressey: if something specifies the behaviour of every element of the language as a test
22:33:07 <elliott> cpressey: what is it but a spec you can run things against?
22:34:04 <cpressey> cpressey: yes, but it's hard to specify behaviour in a way that is both complete and testable
22:34:15 <cpressey> so i'm guessing there are holes
22:39:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A WEB BROWSER!
22:40:00 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Oh dear god.
22:41:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:46:22 <elliott> cpressey: but haven't you ever wanted to script your browser with a shell script?!
22:47:10 <elliott> cpressey: ideally i'll expose the dom as a (virtual) fs tree :)
22:53:51 <elliott> useful URL bar idea: click on a subset of the path to go to that path
23:09:23 <elliott> cpressey: pythonic: http://faq.pygtk.org/index.py?req=show&file=faq23.038.htp
23:09:49 <elliott> url=ctypes.cast(p,ctypes.c_char_p).value
23:09:53 <elliott> has to be the worst line ever, gotta say
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23:32:19 <pikhq> What the *hell* is my computer doing?
23:32:32 <pikhq> Some font on my system renders \ as the yen symbol.
23:33:11 <pikhq> And no, I should not actually have a JIS X 0201 anything.
23:33:18 <elliott> pikhq: Well, Windows does it.
23:33:29 <elliott> pikhq: Japanese Windows shows \ as yen.
23:33:41 <pikhq> elliott: Only for Shift-JIS.
23:33:45 <elliott> You see C:¥Program Files¥... all the time on Japanese sites.
23:33:52 <elliott> pikhq: On all Japanese Windowses, afaik.
23:33:58 <elliott> pikhq: Because of hysterical raisins.
23:34:12 <pikhq> elliott: Because 0xA5 is ¥ in Shift-JIS and JIS X 0201.
23:34:51 <pikhq> Different codepoint though.
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23:36:06 <pikhq> But my system is rendering *U+A5* as ¥.
23:36:50 <pikhq> ... Waaaaiiit, is it somehow trying to use Meiryo?
23:37:45 <pikhq> Meiryo is broken in the ASCII range for hysterical raisins.
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23:38:55 <elliott> "According to Tom Rickner of Ascender Corporation, who helped program and font-hint it, Meiryo is one of the first Japanese fonts created on and for the computer screen" lol
23:39:02 <elliott> i guess ones not made by big corps don't count :)
23:40:19 <pikhq> Fontconfig set right, and voila.
23:40:53 <elliott> pikhq: You TOTALLY HAVE TO USE MY BROWSER
23:42:24 <pikhq> So, today we have learned that: Shift-JIS SUCKS ASS AND SHOULD DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE
23:43:35 <elliott> pikhq: Know what browser has SUPER HUGS?
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23:53:15 <pikhq> elliott: I've come to the conclusion that terminals absolutely inherently must suck at text rendering. Any thoughts on a good somewhat-graphical IRC client?
23:53:51 <pikhq> By "somewhat graphical" I mean "textual but using something better than a VT100 for rendering", of course. :P
23:54:11 <elliott> pikhq: You can configure XChat to not be utterly hideous; I can screenshot.
23:54:12 <elliott> pikhq: http://imgur.com/MH6fl.png
23:54:41 <pikhq> But that's XChat. :P
23:54:48 <elliott> pikhq: You can hide that tab bar if you *really* want to, although I'm not sure exactly how to navigate without it.
23:54:59 <elliott> pikhq: Trust me, I've tried every other client in existence.
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23:55:08 <elliott> pikhq: You could try smuxi. But smuxi has zero line-spacing. It's almost unreadable.
23:55:36 <pikhq> Ideally, I'd have irssi but with better damned text rendering attached.
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23:56:07 <pikhq> By which you mean "write a GUI ncurses library". Urgh.
23:56:16 <elliott> pikhq: irssi has pluggable UIs.
23:56:27 <elliott> Just there's only an ncurses one.
23:56:46 <pikhq> Holy fuck it has pluggable UIs.
23:56:57 <elliott> http://svn.irssi.org/repos/xirssi/
23:57:29 <elliott> pikhq: You're very welcome. :P
23:58:25 <elliott> "Irssi is a modular IRC client for UNIX that currently has only text mode user interface, but 80-90% of the code isn't text mode specific, so other UIs could be created pretty easily." ;; i like how this lies
23:59:42 <pikhq> Actually, what I really really want is just a GUI client that: doesn't suck, is entirely keyboard navigable.
00:00:02 <elliott> pikhq: How's about building xirssi>?
00:00:45 <Gregor> pikhq: I don't think I ever use the mouse for XChat ...
00:00:54 <elliott> Gregor: How do you change channel?
00:01:00 <elliott> Apart from ctrl+pgup/down.
00:01:02 <Gregor> elliott: Ctrl+Pgup/down
00:01:11 <Gregor> ... not keyboard enough for you?
00:01:22 <Gregor> Want everything to be obscure vim control statements?
00:01:36 <elliott> Gregor: No, I just don't want it based on an arbitrary list :P
00:01:46 <elliott> Having to press more keys to get to a channel just because it's further down the alphabet = lame
00:02:20 <Gregor> Lesse, I have twelve channels on four servers plus one query window open.
00:02:22 <Gregor> Assign each of those to a key.
00:03:23 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, my 19 windows in irssi each have their own key combo.
00:04:30 <elliott> What are the packages in Debian to get the version of autotools that works? x_x
00:06:06 <elliott> pikhq: Feel like seeing if xirssi works? :P
00:07:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
00:07:52 <elliott> (sleep 2; scrot -bs ~/xirssi.png)
00:08:00 <pikhq_> Nope, smuxi. Trying to see if I can get it to not-suck.
00:08:09 <elliott> pikhq_: WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST XIRSSI :P
00:08:13 <elliott> It's exactly what you asked for.
00:08:33 <pikhq_> And not in the package manager.
00:08:48 <elliott> pikhq_: Oh noes, you have to compile irssi with --with-glib2 and then compile xirssi
00:08:51 <elliott> That could take minutes :P
00:09:10 <pikhq_> Anyways, it seems that smuxi is very, very unconfigurable.
00:09:22 <elliott> pikhq_: It has pages of config options
00:09:39 <elliott> you're clearly opening the wrong menu or something :p
00:09:57 <pikhq_> I can't even change the font.
00:10:16 <elliott> pikhq_: Screenshot, try different menus.
00:11:23 <pikhq_> It's all... Nice-like.
00:11:40 <pikhq_> ... OH MY FUCKING GOD IT DOESN'T HANDLE MY IME AT ALL.
00:12:03 <pikhq_> THAT MOTHER-FUCKING SUCKS MOTHER-FUCKING ASS.
00:12:17 <elliott> right click on text box etc
00:12:49 <pikhq_> Yes, it's set to the system input method.
00:13:31 <pikhq_> Okay, set it to the Scim bridge method and it works.
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00:22:07 <pikhq> This is a much more comfortable experience than irssi.
00:24:16 <pikhq> And if I paste in some RTL text, it'll display reasonably.
00:25:38 <Zuu> looks arabic
00:26:51 <Zuu> What does it say?
00:28:35 -!- Sasha has joined.
00:34:27 <pikhq> Aaaand I get leſs shitty rendering of þings þat aren't exactly going to be in your average monoſpace font. Hooray.
00:40:48 <elliott> pikhq: Ooh, I'll help you test your new client! :P
00:42:41 <elliott> Sasha: have you been here before?
00:42:44 <Sasha> how do I drain big basins in Minecraft?
00:43:07 <elliott> we don't have any minecraft players here.
00:43:11 <elliott> only fizzie who played for a total of two days
00:43:27 <Sasha> you might not know that I was a player of it
00:43:51 <elliott> right, well, asking questions about it here is unlikely to work :p
00:45:14 <elliott> Gregor: What's the esotericlogs hg again? x_X
00:48:35 <pikhq> Aaand it seems that GUI Emacs sucks even more than my terminal at font rendering. Who would've guessed?
00:48:43 <pikhq> And it can't even use the system IME.
00:48:53 <pikhq> But because it's Emacs, it *of course* has a builtin IME.
00:49:30 <elliott> pikhq: GUI Emacs is nicer than terminal emacs for like two reasons only :P
00:49:41 <elliott> And I'm unsure what those reasons are, exactly.
00:50:12 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo_sign#Hobo_code
00:54:37 <pikhq> I do believe this is the first time I've ever wanted a tab bar on the left side of the window.
00:54:48 <augur> why is hobo code the best thing ever
00:54:51 <elliott> pikhq: tab bar on the left - i.e. buffer list
00:55:10 <elliott> augur: because (1) i had no idea anything like that existed and i'm not sure it even does here
00:55:44 <pikhq> Oh, wait, I wanted that just the other day.
00:55:50 <elliott> pikhq: And every other day.
00:55:59 <elliott> pikhq: NOW HOW DO I MAKE XFWM STOP FOCUSING A WINDOW WHEN I SCROLL IN IT
01:01:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
01:01:56 <elliott> Hmm. If writing to $browser/location loads a page, how do you reload?
01:02:09 <elliott> touch $browser/location? x=$(cat $browser/location); echo "$x" >$browser/location?
01:02:14 <elliott> (The latter would be super-weird.)
01:04:24 <pikhq> Midori is such a nice browser.
01:04:57 <elliott> pikhq: Except that it freezes all the time.
01:09:51 <pikhq> Problematic, that.
01:14:05 <elliott> pikhq: Kayak = my web browser! It displays web pages already!
01:19:44 <elliott> pikhq: It's going to be filesystem'd up the wazoo. If you've heard of uzbl, like that but with less Arch idiocy.
01:19:57 <pikhq> And with a sane UI?
01:20:09 <pikhq> How're you doing the filesystem thing?
01:20:18 <elliott> <elliott> Hmm. If writing to $browser/location loads a page, how do you reload?
01:20:18 <elliott> <elliott> touch $browser/location? x=$(cat $browser/location); echo "$x" >$browser/location?
01:20:19 <elliott> <elliott> (The latter would be super-weird.)
01:20:21 <elliott> TOTALLY NEED AN OPINION ON THIS
01:20:32 <elliott> pikhq: have you ever looked at what you have to do to create a fuse filesystem?
01:20:47 <pikhq> touch $browser/location, definitely.
01:20:52 <pikhq> It just makes sense.
01:21:28 <pikhq> FUSE may be awful, but what about the alternatives?
01:21:30 <elliott> pikhq: True, it does. But then, having a file identifying a browser's location cause the browser to reload just because its modification time changed? What?
01:21:38 <elliott> Also, I could do it with 9p. linux has support for that. :p
01:22:04 <elliott> pikhq: Or I could just have it as regular files...
01:22:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
01:23:09 <elliott> pikhq: Opinions welcome :P
01:23:56 <pikhq> Gamin is revolting.
01:24:07 <elliott> pikhq: FAM, sure, but gamin?
01:24:09 <pikhq> Compared with, y'know, *just implementing a filesystem*.
01:24:21 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but it's also a lot less work for me. :p
01:24:30 <pikhq> It seems alright for file notification stuff, but what you want is an actual, honest-to-god filesystem.
01:24:58 <pikhq> It could bite you in the ass later if you don't.
01:25:49 <Mathnerd314> I dunno if filesystems are right... how do you treat it if the server's down?
01:26:01 * elliott tries to understand wtf Mathnerd314 is trying to say
01:26:15 * elliott suspects he misunderstands the plan...
01:26:20 <elliott> pikhq: I'd *like* to expose the entire DOM as a filesystem... but that sounds like hell to do with webkit.
01:26:34 <Mathnerd314> filesystem... something like /http/google.com/ goes to http://google.com
01:26:51 <elliott> Mathnerd314: yeah no not that.
01:27:45 <Gregor> elliott: Maybe you could expose the FUSE API to WebKit's JavaScript and write the FS in JS >: )
01:27:55 <Mathnerd314> elliott: yay, just lost all interest in your project.
01:28:03 <elliott> pikhq: here's all the shit you have to do to get just a plain in-memory filesystem with fusepy: http://code.google.com/p/fusepy/source/browse/trunk/memory.py
01:28:25 <elliott> Mathnerd314: so wait, first you said "Hey, that won't work." and then I said "Well, I'm not doing that." and then you said "Oh, your project sucks then>"
01:28:36 <elliott> Mathnerd314: see the mindboggling inconsistency here?
01:28:55 <Mathnerd314> I just want filesystems to be more like websites, rather than the opposite
01:29:17 <elliott> that sounds like the worst idea i've ever heard.
01:29:22 <elliott> anyway i'm not exposing websites as filesystems
01:29:28 <elliott> or said anything related to that
01:29:34 <pikhq> elliott: So, your complaint is that you need to... Handle filesystem operations?
01:29:52 <pikhq> I'm sorry that filesystems suck.
01:30:19 <elliott> pikhq: Oh yeah, and that filesystem DOESN'T EVEN SUPPORT DIRECTORIES.
01:31:14 <elliott> pikhq: I am sort of tempted just to have $(browser)/ctl where you can send commands, and then have the other files be read-only. :/
01:33:54 <elliott> Wow, yeah, because I have an informational file with some bytes in it that's totally like a web page.
01:34:03 <elliott> Are you sure you understand what I'm trying to do here...?
01:34:18 <pikhq> You seem to not have the foggiest clue.
01:34:27 <pikhq> elliott: That would make FUSE significantly easier.
01:34:40 <elliott> pikhq: It would. It'd also be a copout, but.
01:34:51 <elliott> pikhq: OTOH, it would be obvious what reloading would be. "reload".
01:34:58 <elliott> pikhq: Or even "go (current url)"; at least that's a proper verb.
01:35:14 <elliott> pikhq: OTOOH (other other hand), it'd be like uzbl and uzbl sucks. :)
01:35:56 <elliott> pikhq: I know, I'll implement something else to procrastinate a bit.
01:41:42 <elliott> pikhq: It appears that my kernel has 9p support.
01:43:29 <elliott> pikhq: http://bitbucket.org/f2f/py9p/src/tip/examples/simplesrv.py otoh, it looks more complicated than fuse :p
01:46:48 <elliott> pikhq: Woo, it can now embed into other windows (*cough* tabbed(1) *cough*)
01:49:19 <Mathnerd314> ok, I still stand by my earlier statements as being relevant.
01:50:25 <elliott> it's just a control interface exposed via fs
01:51:00 <Mathnerd314> but there's nothing to control, except the dom and various commands
01:51:34 <Mathnerd314> unless you want a simultaneous GUI along with the fs
01:51:45 <pikhq> You really seem to be missing the point.
01:51:52 <elliott> Mathnerd314: consider everything you click on in the process of using the browser
01:51:55 <elliott> that's an element of control
01:51:58 <elliott> usually it is exposed via gui widgets
01:52:05 <elliott> there is no reason it cannot be exposed via a logically-organised file system.
01:52:49 <Mathnerd314> ok... explain how url completion works in this fs
01:53:46 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ok, i give up, learn the unix philosophy and plan 9 and then ask again :)
01:54:04 <elliott> Mathnerd314: (this is not an admission of my design's inferiority, any more than trying to explain a certain programming language feature to someone who hasn't programmed before is)
01:54:13 <elliott> i might explain later when i'm not busy coding
02:00:19 <elliott> pikhq: WOO MY WINDOW HAS AN ICON
02:01:09 <elliott> <a href="http:/intl/en/options/" class=gb2>even more »</a>
02:01:23 <Mathnerd314> ok, I fail to see how a filesystem would be smaller than curl + a parser
02:04:16 <elliott> Mathnerd314: you *really* need to read up on the unix/plan9 philosophy before trying to understand this, nothing that you're saying has any relevance to the design
02:05:09 <Mathnerd314> ok, wait an hour-2 while I regain my sanity
02:05:57 <elliott> pikhq: Quick, what user agent should I send?
02:06:43 <elliott> pikhq: whatever it is, it probably has to start with Mozilla/5.0 :p
02:07:13 <Gregor> Mozilla/13.5 (Microsoft Brows-o-mat .NET# 2022)
02:07:47 * elliott tries to figure out what makes Google realise I'm not a stupid browser
02:08:01 <elliott> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-gb) AppleWebKit/531.2+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0 Safari/531.2+
02:08:39 <elliott> i don't like the idea of exposing all that
02:09:01 <elliott> [Default value: "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; c) AppleWebKit/531.2+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/531.2+"]]
02:11:14 <elliott> Gregor: Wow. Google actually looks for Mozilla/5.0.
02:11:19 <elliott> Despite EVERY BROWSER EVER claiming to be Mozilla/5.0.
02:11:36 <Gregor> Bots and downloaders don't.
02:11:45 <Gregor> So that's a good way of detecting that the client /is/ a browser.
02:11:46 <elliott> Gregor: But it just gives you a slightly less rich UI if you don't.
02:11:57 <elliott> Gregor: Specifically, "more" is a link, not a JS dropdown menu.
02:11:59 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.11/20101012113537]).
02:12:06 <elliott> Gregor: Woot, now I get to figure out what qualifies me for the GOOGLE INSTANT LOVE
02:12:45 <Gregor> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US) AppleWebKit/534.7 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/7.0.517.41 Safari/534.7
02:13:33 <elliott> Gregor: ...and gives me an older version of the homepage
02:13:40 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, but I want to not have to embed the version like that.
02:14:03 <elliott> self.webkit_settings.props.user_agent = 'Mozilla/5.0 AppleWebKit KHTML Gecko Chrome Safari'
02:14:04 <Gregor> You should just find all the foo/bar strings of every major browser and paste them together.
02:14:12 <elliott> Gregor: Way ahead of you :P
02:14:30 <elliott> GOOGLE GIVE ME YOUR MOTHERFUCKING NEW LOGO
02:14:36 <Gregor> Firefox does admit to being Firefox. Stupidly, Iceweasel also admits to being Iceweasel.
02:14:58 <elliott> I like how user agents are fucked up.
02:15:04 <Gregor> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.12) Gecko/20100911 Iceweasel/3.5.12 (like Firefox/3.5.12) <-- a lot like it, in fact.
02:15:27 <Gregor> What with it being the same software with s/Firefox/Iceweasel/g
02:15:30 <elliott> Gregor: I have a proposal.
02:16:04 <Gregor> I accidentally made WebSplat work on Opera. Now it works everywhere :(
02:16:20 <elliott> Gregor: Any modern, standards-compliant browser -- baseline basically being IE9 in standards compliance mode -- can have the string "sane", with word boundaries around it, in their User-Agent. If a website detects "sane", it shall not detect anything else beyond that.
02:16:48 <elliott> Gregor: ...and when the next generation of web standards comes out, know what that'll be?
02:17:01 <elliott> User-Agent: Safari (sane (compatible; sane/2))
02:17:09 <Gregor> Opera will claim to be sane immediately.
02:17:19 <Gregor> Then if you want to support Opera properly, you'll have to check for sane-but-not-Opera.
02:17:35 <elliott> Gregor: Another rule: Opera may not identify as sane.
02:17:36 <Gregor> Plus, IE9 can only report whether it's sane or not AFTER it's downloaded the file, making the user-agent worthless.
02:17:51 <elliott> Gregor: Congrats, you have made sanity insane.
02:18:39 <elliott> Gregor: when the stack overflow guys found out, via reddit, that their site would willingly copy out a script tag onto their careers side, constituting a massive XSS hole:
02:18:40 <elliott> [[Um, thanks? No one is perfect. Would kindly ask for a white-hat approach in the future and not a firehose from reddit: team@stackoverflow.com]]
02:18:46 <elliott> Gee, guys, it's not easy to prevent against XSS.
02:18:49 <elliott> You have to escape strings and shit.
02:19:05 <elliott> One of our company's cofounders wrote a long article on how to name variables so that it's obvious when it's safe to inline things in a page or not.
02:21:05 <elliott> self.webkit_settings.props.user_agent = 'Kayak Mozilla/6.0 WebKit/9.9.9.9 Safari/600'
02:22:38 <elliott> Kayak (Mozilla/5.0; WebKit)
02:23:20 <elliott> "You are currently viewing Google Mail in basic HTML. Upgrade your browser for faster, better Google Mail"
02:24:30 <pikhq> elliott: You know you want to send the user agent *properly*.
02:24:38 <pikhq> elliott: Kayak (WebKit)
02:24:43 <elliott> pikhq: Dude, I fucking did.
02:24:57 <elliott> pikhq: Google thinks I'm running Browser: The 1995 Edition, gmail doesn't let me in...
02:25:12 <elliott> pikhq: tl;dr no, i'm not sending a reasonable user agent :P
02:25:25 <pikhq> Bug report. Google should know better than user agent scanning.
02:25:32 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but they don't.
02:25:40 <elliott> pikhq: And half the shitty-fucking web doesn't either.
02:25:47 <elliott> pikhq: Google preach against user agent sniffing but do it anyway.
02:25:52 <pikhq> Motherfucking hell.
02:27:56 <elliott> Kayak (Mozilla/5.0 X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-gb AppleWebKit/531.2+ KHTML, like Gecko Version/5.0 Safari/531.2+)
02:28:23 <pikhq> Could you make it have any more ridiculous claims?
02:29:26 <pikhq> I dunno, add Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; X11; compatible)
02:29:39 <pikhq> Yes, it claims to be Mozilla 4 compatible IE6 compatible on X11.
02:30:31 <pikhq> Hell, stick every one of these strings in there.
02:30:36 <pikhq> http://www.user-agents.org/
02:30:47 <pikhq> And this tea sucks. :(
02:30:58 <elliott> pikhq: I wonder what the fuck Version/5.0 even MEANS
02:31:17 <pikhq> elliott: Netscape 5.0. Honest.
02:31:27 <elliott> pikhq: No, that's Mozilla/5.0.
02:33:35 <elliott> pikhq: It's Version, version 5.0.
02:34:30 <elliott> Kayak (Mozilla/5.0; KHTML, like Gecko; WebKit/531.2+; Safari/531.2+)
02:34:33 <elliott> This better motherfucking work.
02:34:51 <elliott> pikhq: IT APPEARS WE ARE NOT COOL ENOUGH TO GET THE FANCY NEW GOOGLE IMAGES
02:35:28 <elliott> http://www.user-agents.org/ <-- this is amazingly terribly designed
02:35:44 <elliott> pikhq: I can probably get rid of "KHTML, like Gecko", right?
02:36:10 <pikhq> No. That is to convince some stupid things that you're using KHTML.
02:36:23 <elliott> pikhq: No website sniffs for KHTML. I *refuse* to believe that.
02:36:35 <pikhq> I am sure they exist.
02:36:41 <elliott> pikhq: There are also IE-only websites.
02:37:13 <pikhq> That's why you add Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; X11; compatible)
02:37:35 <elliott> pikhq: that makes websites rather reasonably give me the IE-sucks-compatibility page :p
02:38:20 <elliott> pikhq: Version/5.0 makes google images work
02:38:50 <elliott> pikhq: You also need Mozilla/5.0 and Gecko or WebKit or whatever to get google's frontpage at the maximal version.
02:39:16 <pikhq> Couldn't it just... Check for the needed functions?
02:40:21 <elliott> pikhq: Kayak (Mozilla/5.0; Gecko; WebKit/531.2+; Safari/531.2+; Version/5.0)
02:40:24 <elliott> This appears to do the trick.
02:41:19 <elliott> pikhq: Getting rid of the Safari version breaks things though; sweet!
02:42:15 <pikhq> From this I can conclude that we need to commit genocide against morons.
02:42:26 <pikhq> They are the primary reason for everything sucking.
02:43:46 <elliott> pikhq: Is there a fancy Buddhist term for becoming one with everything?
02:44:01 <pikhq> None that I know of.
02:44:16 <pikhq> Though I know very little about Buddhist terminology.
02:44:23 <elliott> pikhq: But I need one. It's going to be the name of the function that sets the user agent to claim to be everything. :)
02:44:24 <Sasha> Achieving Nirvana.
02:44:44 <elliott> Sasha: I mean a fancy term for the act of achieving Nirvana.
02:44:57 <pikhq> hù'kiȳô is Japanese for Buddhism! That's about as far as I go.
02:45:08 <Sasha> Grand Harmonization?
02:45:31 <elliott> can't they just have a word for it like
02:45:39 <elliott> i want my function to be incomprehensibly-named
02:45:42 <elliott> for it does an incomprehensible thing
02:45:54 * elliott notes that Sasha definitely hasn't been in here before with that nick
02:46:26 <pikhq> Bodhi? I know someone IRL with that name...
02:46:47 <Sasha> it's sanskrit for enlightenment or something
02:46:48 * elliott gets the feeling that Sasha is a buddhist :p
02:47:10 <Sasha> I dunno exactly, my sanskrit's a wee bit rusty.
02:47:18 <Sasha> I'm a devout atheist
02:47:28 <elliott> nobody's ever said bodhi here either, so presumably Sasha was referring to my query
02:47:28 <pikhq> My sanskrit consists of a single loanword in Japanese!
02:48:12 <Sasha> I was. Bodhi is the word you want, maybe.
02:48:15 -!- Sasha has changed nick to Gluttony.
02:48:28 <Gluttony> maybe this is the nick you're more familiar with?
02:49:00 <pikhq> Can't even recall any regulars from Phoenix, AZ.
02:49:06 <Gluttony> I was one of the folks that migrated in from an XKCD channel.
02:49:20 <elliott> I can easily name all of those ones though.
02:49:30 <elliott> Because I have them on my HIT LIST because I'm EVIL and CRUEL to EVERYONE.
02:49:48 <Gluttony> Yeah, Branan, Caitlin.. one other, and me.
02:49:52 <elliott> 19:42:15 --- join: Chachi (~WHAT@97-124-45-71.phnx.qwest.net) joined #esoteric
02:50:03 <pikhq> That matches the whois.
02:50:10 <elliott> There was also some CatSandwich guy.
02:50:24 <elliott> I've driven them all away because of my IMMENSE POWERS OF ASSHOLERY apparently
02:50:24 -!- Gluttony has changed nick to Chachi.
02:50:34 <Gregor> elliott: Congratulations!
02:50:36 <Chachi> wasn't sure what nick I was using
02:50:41 -!- Chachi has changed nick to Sasha.
02:50:49 <Sasha> this is the one I like the best, though.
02:51:09 <Sasha> Gluttony's another common one, it's what sin I embody.
02:51:10 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/HhYA kayak(1) 0.00000001
02:51:22 <Gregor> A friend of mine made the UNIX interface for XKCD ... I should get him to draw XKCD-hat-guy as a WebSplat character and have him put that in as an April fools joke :P
02:51:28 <elliott> pikhq: It can view Google and go from there. It does nothing else.
02:51:33 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:51:35 <elliott> Gregor: I think you should disown your friend forever. :p
02:52:25 <Gregor> Uhh, yes? As opposed to who?
02:52:36 <elliott> Gregor: Anyone else who likes xkcd in any way :P
02:52:50 <elliott> pikhq: DUDE BEHOLD MY SOFTWARE ENGINEERING SKILLZ
02:52:54 <Gregor> XKCD is occasionally sufferable!
02:52:59 <elliott> pikhq: I CALLED LIKE *SEVEN* API FUNCTIONS
02:53:05 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe a year or two ago.
02:53:12 <Sasha> I like the people that read it more than it, usually
02:53:16 <elliott> I am pretty sure I recall... three mediocre comics in the last year.
02:53:23 <elliott> Sasha: that's funny, the people who read it are generally worse :p
02:53:48 <elliott> Hmm, hey, xkcd recently went over 50% crappy.
02:53:55 <elliott> (400 being around the time it started going really downhill)
02:54:14 <pikhq> elliott: That appears to be a very good argument for higher-level languages right there.
02:54:28 <elliott> pikhq: NOW ANY MORON CAN MAKE A TERRIBLE BROWSER
02:54:39 <elliott> pikhq: If you look carefully that thing even has XEmbed support.
02:54:51 <elliott> pikhq: You have to put the window ID as an argument to Browser though :P
02:54:53 <pikhq> elliott: Sure, it's more complex than it should be, buuuut that's still not bad.
02:55:24 <elliott> pikhq: Just because it doesn't support tabs, windows, URL entry, or keyboard bindings!
02:56:17 <elliott> whoops that code doesn't run :D
02:56:23 <Sasha> elliott: Eh. Some of them are rather good.
02:56:27 <elliott> achieve_nirvana needs a self argument
02:56:30 <elliott> Sasha: the people or the comics?
02:57:02 <elliott> Sasha: How apropos! http://xkcd.com/169/
02:57:39 <elliott> (Is that actually irony? Dare I say so for fear of the hordes of reddit users itching for a chance to quote Alanis Morisette?)
02:57:49 <elliott> *Morissette, google tells me
02:57:53 <Sasha> er, it's a completely fine response
02:58:05 <Sasha> You asked an OR question
02:58:17 <elliott> OR in natural language = either list elements, or XOR
02:58:35 <Sasha> Natlangs are rather screwy
02:58:49 <Sasha> so, to restate my answer, both.
02:58:59 <elliott> Sure they are, but only when you deliberately go out of your way to override your brain's natural processing of them :P
02:58:59 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
02:59:12 <Sasha> Hah, natural processing
02:59:36 <Sasha> if I was to allow it to just do its own thing, there would me much fornication and little rejoicing
02:59:45 <Sasha> instead of little fornication and much rejoicing
03:00:03 <Sasha> "Ooh, opposite gender. Allow them to fornicate with you."
03:00:55 <elliott> Sasha: You'd also have to fornicate with every member of the opposite gender :P
03:01:22 <Sasha> Exactly. And some of them aren't so nice-looking.
03:01:42 <Sasha> which is my hardwiring telling me that they have relatively little disease
03:02:09 <elliott> And if we go past every layer of hardwiring, turns out we don't need to fornicate at all!
03:02:17 <Gregor> "Ooh, same (biological) class? Allow them to fornicate with you."
03:02:17 <Sasha> psychology is a funny thing.
03:02:19 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently my browser supports HTML 5 video except it only plays the audio.
03:02:58 <Gregor> elliott: Uhh, maybe it just doesn't support the particular codec.
03:03:11 <Gregor> Oh, your browser as in the browser you're hacking together :P
03:03:13 <elliott> Gregor: I've tried it on like three examples.
03:03:18 <elliott> Gregor: My browser is currently WebKit.
03:03:21 <elliott> So if WebKit does it it should work :P
03:03:55 <Gregor> Idonno, does it actually ship in source form with H.264 support, or does it require some lower-level system support?
03:03:55 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:04:11 <Sasha> Gregor: Not really picky, so much as societal norms. I'm still not sure of my own sexual orientation.
03:04:29 <elliott> i love how there's this idea that you have to FIGURE OUT YOUR RIGIDLY-DEFINED SEXUAL ORIENTATION
03:04:33 -!- wareya has joined.
03:04:43 <Gregor> elliott: SPEAKING OF SOCIETAL NORMS HYUK
03:04:44 <elliott> "Do I find this person attractive? Like do I *really*? But my sexual orientation says I don't! WHAAT"
03:04:57 <elliott> <Gregor> Idonno, does it actually ship in source form with H.264 support, or does it require some lower-level system support?
03:05:03 <elliott> p. sure i have all the evil things necessary to play h.264 but
03:05:09 <elliott> BECAUSE THEORA IS SO AWESOME RIGHT?
03:05:18 <Sasha> elliott: See: Unsure of own sexual orientation
03:05:18 <Gregor> Well it certainly doesn't ship with theora support.
03:05:23 <Sasha> I'll try anything once.
03:05:28 <elliott> Sasha: Are you unsure of who you're attracted to?
03:05:36 <elliott> If not, who the fuck cares? If so, your brain is broken.
03:05:39 <elliott> Sasha: No, I mean, individual people.
03:06:04 <pikhq> Sasha: Here's a hint: sexual orientation is nowhere near as well-defined as you may think it is.
03:06:10 <elliott> I refuse to believe that you can see someone and not have an impulse reaction as to their attractiveness because that's, like, one of the most fundamental snap-decisions the brain makes.
03:06:14 <pikhq> Like most everything, shit is *complicated*.
03:06:23 <elliott> Gregor: What support does it ship with then? >_<
03:06:38 <Sasha> pikhq: I am aware of this
03:06:43 <Gregor> elliott: Probably only support for relying on the underlying OS to support shit :)
03:07:09 <Sasha> elliott: I'm diagnosed with some autism.
03:07:27 <Sasha> so, in a way, my brain could be considered "broken"
03:07:37 <elliott> Sasha: You and every other fucking person on the internet.
03:07:51 <Gregor> I have not been diagnosed with and do not have autism.
03:07:52 <Sasha> I've got a paper saying so
03:08:00 <elliott> Fun fact: Shit means nothing.
03:08:05 <Sasha> from a registered psychologist with an MD
03:08:27 <elliott> As we all know, psychology is the most reliable, scientific and well-grounded profession on earth.
03:08:33 <Gregor> elliott: You're so awesome sometimes :P
03:08:36 <elliott> And autism the least vaguely-defined mental illness in the universe.
03:08:42 <elliott> Gregor: It's because I have autism
03:09:07 <Sasha> also a couple of really nasty things
03:09:41 <elliott> Sasha: In fact, they thought I had so much autism that I should be put in a mental unit for almost a year!
03:09:43 <Sasha> in addition to this, I tend to supress emotions. It's second nature.
03:09:45 * elliott legally certified insane person
03:10:02 <Sasha> because insane is a lawyer-term
03:10:22 <elliott> Or at least they certainly threatened to make it one.
03:10:28 <elliott> I totally need a certificate
03:11:08 <pikhq> Sasha: The fundamental problem with just going and saying "well, I'm autistic" is this: it's a valid excuse for *hardly anything*.
03:11:28 <pikhq> Shame, too, it'd be handy to have an easy excuse for everything.
03:11:32 <Sasha> I am mentioning it as a cause for an effect.
03:11:47 <Sasha> I never use it as an excuse.
03:11:50 <elliott> when i was younger i would kick up fits whenever anything didn't go my way because i was a terrible person and then just blamed it on assburgers
03:11:55 <pikhq> Not parsing it that way. Actually... I'm parsing it as an almost non-sequitur.
03:12:26 <Sasha> The effect being, not making snap judgements about the attractiveness of people.
03:12:36 <elliott> That is not a characteristic of autism.
03:12:43 <pikhq> Sasha: Being autistic does not in any way change how your boner works.
03:12:49 <Sasha> hrm, I was told it was.
03:12:53 <elliott> It's not even your, ahem, boner :P
03:12:59 <elliott> I'm sure even asexual people do it.
03:13:06 <elliott> They make the snap decision, they just don't feel any compulsion to act on it or anything.
03:13:24 <elliott> Pretty sure it's one of the most basic recognitions the brain makes.
03:13:31 <Sasha> However, I lead with my head instead of my heart. Emotion tends to get in the way of reasoning and logic.
03:13:32 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah yeah yeah.
03:13:40 <elliott> Sasha: omg ur like mr. spak
03:14:02 <pikhq> Sasha: Currently, I'm tempted to say you're either asexual or full of shit.
03:14:26 <Sasha> Well, seeing as how the emotions I usually feel are horrible terrible things as defined by society, I tend not to express them.
03:14:37 <Sasha> pikhq: Probably the first one.
03:14:52 <elliott> "But I can't express my inner paedophilia ;__;"
03:15:10 <elliott> Oh! #esoteric! Don't stop! Ohh!
03:15:10 <Sasha> But, you can make your own judgements. I won't tell you what to think.
03:15:12 <elliott> --Gregor's next, untyped line
03:15:14 <pikhq> elliott: You know full well it's pædophilia.
03:15:38 <Sasha> No, elliott, it's more like severe anger and depression.
03:15:55 <Gregor> Your search - wikipædophelia - did not match any documents. D-8
03:16:11 <elliott> Gregor: http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Wikipedophile
03:16:18 <pikhq> Wikipædophilia ← There.
03:17:06 <Gregor> I think that not being able to spell "pædophilia" counts as a win :P
03:17:12 <pikhq> Þou fail'ſt ſo hard.
03:17:25 <elliott> "I hate paedophaeila so much, I can't even type it!"
03:17:27 <Sasha> the a-e digraph looks rather silly in monospace
03:17:30 <elliott> "Why, does it disgust you that much?"
03:17:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:17:34 <elliott> "No, I'm just terrible at spelling it."
03:17:50 <pikhq> Sasha: Ligature, not digraph, and that's your problem, isn't it?
03:17:54 <Sasha> however, I like the thorn and long-s.
03:18:10 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
03:18:11 <Gregor> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/File:So_cool.jpg <-- in a situation with any relevance whatsoever, this would be hilarious.
03:18:29 <Sasha> pikhq: Still looks silly, like an a and an e smooshed together.
03:18:38 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah referencing xkcd irl is hilarious :p
03:18:45 <zzo38> Did someone in here have a question about whether or not Enhanced CWEB can be used to create webpages?
03:18:46 <Gregor> elliott: ... referencing XKCD?
03:18:55 <elliott> Gregor: I *envy* your xkcd ignorance.
03:18:58 <elliott> Gregor: http://xkcd.com/285/
03:19:00 <pikhq> Saſha: Problem þine.
03:19:12 <elliott> Gregor: Also: click any "citation needed" link on Wikipedia. See that comic.
03:19:31 <Gregor> elliott: As with reddit and digg, I use people on the web as my XKCD filter :P
03:19:43 <Sasha> pikhq: It is. I am pointing out an opinion.
03:19:55 <elliott> Gregor: But it is also ridiculously super-famous :P
03:20:04 <elliott> To the point of being internet-iconic.
03:20:04 <pikhq> elliott: That [citation needed] picture is from a #xkcd meetup, I'm pretty sure.
03:20:25 <Gregor> elliott: I've PROBABLY seen it before.
03:20:26 <Sasha> or even a normal xkcd meetup
03:20:33 <Sasha> not necessarily the channel
03:20:46 <Gregor> elliott: I think my terrible memory is a blessing :P
03:21:11 <elliott> pikhq: WANNA WRITE FUSE CODE?
03:21:12 <Sasha> I need to start using fun letters too.
03:21:27 <pikhq> I think I'm adopting long s into my romanisation scheme for no good reason. Other than that it looks nice.
03:21:35 <Gregor> elliott: YOU SHOULD EXPOSE THE FUSE API TO JAVASCRIPT THEN WRITE THE *kills self*
03:22:03 <Mathnerd314> elliott: oh yeah, I feel much saner now. maybe you could try to re-explain, if you're not too busy coding
03:22:09 <pikhq> koriȳa ſô miſeteru ne.
03:22:51 <pikhq> {こりゃそう見せてるね。}[korya sō miseteru ne.]
03:23:26 <elliott> Mathnerd314: tl;dr there's webkit in a window. The browser exposes a directory on the filesystem tree. It has files like "location", containing the current browser location, and the like. (You can imagine the fully-extended form of this, a "dom" directory, containing a representation of the entire document as an FS tree -- but that's a bit ridiculous).
03:23:32 <elliott> Mathnerd314: It can be controlled by writing to these files.
03:23:47 <elliott> Mathnerd314: For example, "echo http://reddit.com/ >location" would make the browser load reddit.com.
03:25:14 <elliott> pikhq: How much will you charge to convert a simple Python program into C? >:)
03:25:17 <Mathnerd314> (if texting while driving is as bad for you as drinking while driving, and you shouldn't drink and derive, then texting (IRC-ing) and simultaneously following the derivation of the Mean Value Theorem is bad)
03:25:50 <elliott> Sasha: I don't use Windows.
03:25:51 <pikhq> elliott: All the money.
03:26:04 <elliott> pikhq: It's only 44 lines!
03:26:09 <zzo38> What is the point of a romanisation scheme that uses unicode?
03:26:10 <Sasha> Oh, right. Someone that doesn't like games.
03:26:24 <elliott> Sasha: I play plenty of games. (well, not right now, but that's for other reasons)
03:26:48 <pikhq> zzo38: Better matching the native orthography.
03:26:50 <elliott> Sasha: Of course most of them are either native, work in Wine (which supports many things perfectly), or can be easily run in a VM at a pinch.
03:27:06 <Sasha> whenever I attempt using Wine, my box fails.
03:27:09 <elliott> Sasha: Also: seemingly unlike you, I value other things above the absolute easiest game experience, such as being able to program without wanting to kill myself.
03:27:19 <pikhq> zzo38: Especially handy for demonstrating oddities of the orthography while speaking to an audience that's not going to learn a completely new script.
03:27:20 <Sasha> It hasn't got enough memory.
03:27:27 <elliott> I've never understood how some people put being able to game in one or two clicks above EVERYTHING ELSE EVER.
03:27:41 <Sasha> elliott: Just because I am not a computer programmer means very little
03:27:45 <Mathnerd314> elliott: so, an near as I can follow, you're writing something of a CLI for the web?
03:27:52 <Sasha> ypu could say I am a polymath
03:27:59 <elliott> Sasha: you *do* realise this channel is about programming languages?
03:28:13 <Sasha> I came here to learn more about them
03:28:21 <elliott> Sasha: You do realise it's about *esoteric* programming languages? :P
03:28:27 <elliott> Your education here will be ... skewed.
03:28:32 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Something like that... except the filesystem metaphor goes deeper than just a CLI.
03:28:44 <elliott> Mathnerd314: A filesystem represents a piece of information, a resource.
03:28:46 <pikhq> zzo38: How else could I discuss tiȳônnhų, tàkutenn, or hanntàkutenn with someone who can't read Japanese?
03:28:52 <Sasha> I mean, hell, I don't learn useful natlangs.
03:28:55 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Consider a filesystem tree like a programming language namespace.
03:29:19 <elliott> pikhq: We're talking the SIMPLEST python script here
03:29:23 <Sasha> There was a period there where I was fluent in /ESPERANTO/
03:29:38 <elliott> a few people here know esperanto
03:29:45 <pikhq> Sasha: "was fluent"? Meþinkſt þou ſuckeſt.
03:29:54 <elliott> ...but yeah, you cannot be ex-fluent
03:29:57 <pikhq> elliott: Jes, sed mia Esperanto malbonas.
03:30:02 <elliott> fluency is pretty much defined as the point where you have it internalised :P
03:30:24 <Sasha> pikhq: Mine isn't so great either, I rarely use it.
03:31:41 <pikhq> でも僕の日本語が良い！{tèmo, hòku no nihonnkò kà î.}[demo, boku no nihongo ga ii.](But, my Japanese is good.)
03:31:44 <Sasha> I'm also currently learning German as part of school and am /okay/ at ASL, but not quite fluent.
03:31:52 <elliott> pikhq: Thought: Arch is for people who want to pretend to understand and follow the minimalist Unix philosophy without actually having to give up any of their stupid trinkets.
03:32:03 <pikhq> elliott: Possibly.
03:32:11 <zzo38> elliott: Is it? Maybe it is.
03:32:25 <elliott> zzo38: You'd be proud of me, I'm making a web browser.
03:32:48 <Sasha> hmm. Would the German word for Japanese be "Japanisch"?
03:32:56 <Mathnerd314> so what has everyone who knew Esperanto switched to instead? Lojban?
03:33:03 <pikhq> Sasha: You tell me.
03:33:10 <zzo38> elliott: O, you are? Are you using a existing system or making a new one?
03:33:19 <elliott> zzo38: Well, uh, I'm using WebKit, but that's it.
03:33:21 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Esperanto is still the most viable auxlang.
03:33:44 <Sasha> Mein Japanisch kennen bist null.
03:33:46 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Mostly by merit of being the only one that's viable.
03:33:47 <zzo38> (Currently I use Vonkeror it is a existing Mozilla system, it is not best though)
03:33:48 <elliott> zzo38: I could, theoretically, write my own rendering engine, but considering it's almost a hundred thousand lines of code to write one that works with most web pages properly, that sounds un-fun.
03:34:01 <elliott> But yeah, I'm writing everything but the rendering engine.
03:34:07 <Sasha> pikhq: It's not so widely used any more.
03:34:23 <Sasha> 3rd time's the charm?
03:34:36 <Mathnerd314> so maybe interest in auxlangs just died down generally as people learn English?
03:34:46 <pikhq> Sasha: There exist *no other* auxlangs with any hint of popularity, though.
03:34:47 <Sasha> Mathnerd314: Seems that way.
03:35:07 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Actually, interest in auxlangs died down when Hitler killed 3/4ths of the speakers.
03:35:34 <Sasha> I am also wondering if ASL would be considered an auxlang.
03:35:42 <pikhq> Sasha: Not really.
03:35:55 <zzo38> Best is a completely different way, using only an existing Javascript engine and writing render engine it doesn't have to work correctly, as long as web pages are workable. The JavaScript DOM also has to be completely different; image loading must be different; etc. And there must be a command-line access of services.
03:35:58 <Sasha> It's derived from a few other SLs, IIRC
03:36:14 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: At the time, a very large number of Esperanto speakers were in Poland. And Jewish.
03:36:21 <elliott> zzo38: THINGS ARE NOT BETTER MERELY BY VIRTUE OF BEING DIFFERENT FROM OTHER EXISTING THINIGS
03:36:29 <elliott> ESPECIALLY WHEN NOTHING ELSE WORKS WITH THE DIFFERENT THING
03:37:24 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: In particular, Lidia Zamenhof (Lidja ZAMENHOF)
03:37:48 <elliott> Is it Esperanto policy to uppercase SURNAMES?
03:37:56 <pikhq> Sasha: Most languages are that way.
03:38:15 <Sasha> seems as if he was uppercasing to emphasize
03:38:16 <elliott> pikhq: are you sure you wanted to address that to Sasha?
03:38:31 <pikhq> Sasha: "Derived from other languages".
03:38:42 <Sasha> all these highlights
03:38:51 <Sasha> all this bright glaring orange on my screen
03:38:59 <elliott> SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA SASHA
03:39:13 <Sasha> HAS A CHARISMA MODIFIER OF -6
03:39:33 <pikhq> elliott: The uppercasing of surnames is somewhat more common in Esperanto than elsewhere. It's actually a convention in Latin-script-using languages where the surname might be ambiguous.
03:39:46 <elliott> Sasha: that's what she said
03:41:03 <Mathnerd314> man, I thought freenode was safe from shouting. add to ignore list...
03:41:33 <Sasha> I am developing an a priori language, with an individual system of syntax and grammar.
03:41:40 <elliott> Sasha: YOU SHOUTED "I" THERE
03:41:43 <pikhq> elliott: It's *especially* useful for Japanese names, where the actual surname order *might be either way* when written in English.
03:41:50 <Sasha> Its method of indicating names is a special punctuation mark.
03:41:52 <elliott> pikhq: YOU SHOUTED THAT SURNAME BACK THER
03:42:01 <pikhq> s/Japanese/East Asian/
03:42:20 <Sasha> elliott: I am merely using some English conventions in my typings
03:42:22 <pikhq> For instance, it's KIM Jong-Il but Nobuo UEMATSU.
03:42:48 <Sasha> which does not help folks like me. I write in allcaps.
03:43:44 <Mathnerd314> elliott: do you consume some sort of drug?
03:43:51 <Sasha> No, my manual handwriting is allcaps. It's a reflex on keyboards to use the shift key.
03:44:07 <Sasha> I consume some powerful antidepressants. Does that count?
03:44:13 <pikhq> Sasha: That's fairly ridiculous.
03:44:28 <pikhq> Though my manual handwriting has long ceased to be readable by others, so who am I to judge?
03:44:46 <Sasha> pikhq: Eh, it works.
03:44:54 <elliott> Mathnerd314: well, yes, caffeine makes its way into my body
03:44:59 <Sasha> I also cross Zs, 7s, and 0s
03:45:05 <elliott> Mathnerd314: but i'm perfectly calm right now if that's WHAT YOU'ER THIMNKING WOOOOOOO
03:45:21 <Sasha> so they don't look like 2s, 1s and Os
03:45:54 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I'm just jealous of your seemingly boundless energy. I myself am tired all the time, thus the lowercase
03:46:10 <elliott> Mathnerd314: YES PRESSING THE CAPSLOCK IS VERY ENERGY-USING
03:46:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i'm tired all the time too :p
03:46:18 <pikhq> Sasha: I no longer use an orthography anyone else knows. :P
03:46:30 <Sasha> pikhq: Come again?
03:46:38 <Sasha> I do no use the capslock key
03:46:47 <Sasha> I use some amazing shift key skills
03:47:30 <pikhq> My typical handwriting is nowadays English written using Chinese characters and a Latin-alphabet-derived script with an absurd number of ligatures.
03:47:54 <pikhq> High school was boring, what can I say?
03:48:41 <elliott> pikhq: I want to see that.
03:48:46 <Sasha> no, I like some of what I write to be legible.
03:49:09 <pikhq> elliott: I don't have a scanner handy, sadly.
03:49:22 <pikhq> elliott: If I did, I would be quite happy to oblige.
03:49:38 <elliott> pikhq: Try and represent it in Unicodeish? You won't get most of the ligatures and the fancy Latin script but you can get some of them and the freaky half-Chinese stuff.
03:50:21 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, the basic gylph forms themselves are highly modified. But I can maybe approximate it...
03:50:44 <elliott> To be honest, I don't even handwrite.
03:51:01 <elliott> I have a computer. I can type many times faster than any handwriting. It breaks down a bit with drawings etc. though :)
03:51:49 <Sasha> elliott: I can type at 75WPM on a computer, 65WPM on a typewriter, and about 70WPM handwritten.
03:52:03 <Sasha> However, using shorthand, I can get about 120WPM
03:52:04 <elliott> i can type at 110 wpm or so when i'm just copying text
03:52:12 <elliott> including error correction
03:52:17 <elliott> but i think slower than that
03:52:34 <elliott> typing which is walrus kitten bark
03:53:11 <Sasha> I can type at a decent speed
03:53:11 <elliott> since they appear on your screen in something approximating real-time,
03:53:16 <elliott> it is a vaguely useful estimate.
03:53:22 <Sasha> if I have an idea of what I am going to say
03:53:33 <Sasha> but my hands are rather large and this keyboard is small
03:53:38 <elliott> my brain freezes up for long periods of time to figure out what to say first :p
03:54:28 <pikhq> elliott: u`,t`-基字方t`-m自s有高的m°d!f!-d. b;t私可m@yb- a\pr°x!m@t- it...
03:54:40 <elliott> pikhq: What... does that translate as?
03:55:02 <pikhq> elliott: "Uh, the basic glyph forms themselves are highly modified. But I can maybe approximate it..."
03:55:16 <elliott> pikhq: you are a crazy fucker
03:55:28 <elliott> pikhq: why is i written as !
03:55:40 <elliott> why is a written as @ mid-sentence
03:55:43 <pikhq> Note that each consonant-vowel combination would be a written as a ligature.
03:55:53 <elliott> and how do you know whether to use latin or chinese?
03:56:09 <pikhq> elliott: If I know the Chinese for the morphemes of the word I use that, otherwise I don't.
03:56:20 <elliott> pikhq: So you could have written the entire previous line as Chinese.
03:56:26 <elliott> If you expanded your knowledge.
03:56:50 <pikhq> Well, except "the" doesn't really have an analog in Chinese.
03:56:59 <pikhq> But that doesn't matter too much; it's a single glyph.
03:57:03 <Sasha> use Gregg shorthanf
03:57:30 <pikhq> h gets turned into a grave diacritic, you see.
03:57:52 <Sasha> it's a '-like thing in Gregg shorthand
03:58:09 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, yeah, and each ligatured glyph can be written as a single stroke.
03:59:00 <pikhq> Diacritics, sadly, can't really fit into that well.
04:00:56 <Sasha> I'm going to sleep not
04:02:25 <pikhq> elliott: It's really quite nice writing Latin-origin or Greek-origin words using that.
04:03:01 <pikhq> elliott: "Orthographic"? 正書的.
04:12:53 <pikhq> Several hours and Midori has yet to crash on me.
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04:50:20 <zzo38> Can you write shorthand?
04:53:30 <zzo38> I have a book about Pitman shorthand
04:57:50 <catseye_> < zzo38> Did someone in here have a question about whether or not Enhanced CWEB can be used to create webpages?
04:57:51 <storkbot> catseye_: cpressey told me to tell you: Boo!
04:59:40 <catseye_> Also, this terminal does not do unicode, so there's a lot of ????'s
05:00:37 <zzo38> catseye_: You can make CGI programs in Enhanced CWEB, you could also make TeX macros to make printed formatting and HTML; you could also use make file mode and @{ ... @} even, or make a C program to put things together, or whatever.
05:01:13 <zzo38> catseye_: yesweb can do multiple files, but it doesn't do much and is mostly only the proof of concept. yesweb can be improved, however. It is public domain.
05:01:15 <catseye_> could I make a C/HTML polyglot that displays acceptably in a web pages, but also compiles with a C compiler?
05:01:48 <catseye_> (that is not really a Enhanced CWEB-specific question, I guess)
05:02:43 <zzo38> catseye_: I don't know. Try? You might need CSS and/or JavaScript used, and you probably need to set the MIME type for sure.
05:04:29 * catseye_ considers starting out with "#include <html>"...
05:04:52 <catseye_> (I'm not very good at polyglots)
05:05:18 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:06:11 <pikhq> catseye_: It almost certainly wouldn't be valid HTML.
05:06:29 <pikhq> catseye_: But you could probably abuse a tag soup parser into compliance.
05:06:32 -!- catseye_ has changed nick to catseye.
05:06:43 <catseye> pikhq: that would be the plan, yeah.
05:07:00 <catseye> "it doesn't look awful" in some mainstream web browser.
05:07:09 <zzo38> pikhq: It is why you need to set the MIME type and use CSS
05:18:41 <catseye> eventually i'd like to write my own x86-subset assembler
05:20:38 <catseye> it would mainly do checking and stuff, and could use nasm as its backend
05:28:14 <zzo38> Finally I fixed two problems with internationalization.wi program. (I probably never need text internationalization in most programs I write (especially command-line programs), but perhaps someone will need a program from me that supports it?)
05:28:27 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
05:29:07 <zzo38> Do you know what these two problems are?
05:32:47 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...).
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06:14:50 <zzo38> First problem is you can't have categories/comments. Now an optional category/comment can be placed as the second parameter to intl(). Both together are used to uniquely identify, and the category/comment (called the auxiliary) is placed in the default.lang file separated from the main text by ~00 which represents a null character, and is therefore ignored when the file is loaded.
06:15:57 <zzo38> Second problem is if you write a translation and the program changes, the index numbers for the strings might change. This is dealt with by a separate program called intlconv (no change is needed in internationalization.wi to correct this second problem).
06:17:09 <zzo38> Basically, let's say you want to make a Klingon translation and you already have one, but that the program has changed and you need to update it. Three steps as follows:
06:17:37 <zzo38> Step 1: Run "intlconv default.lang klingon.xlang" to update your .xlang file with the changes.
06:17:56 <zzo38> Step 2: Edit the .xlang file to add new translations.
06:18:16 <zzo38> Step 3: Run "intlconv default.lang klingon.xlang klingon.lang" to create the .lang file which is loadable by the program.
06:19:55 <zzo38> Is this reasonable?
06:20:33 <catseye> That seems reasonable to me.
06:21:39 <zzo38> And internationalization.wi is still only 219 lines long (and this includes things such as chapter headings, which GNU programs do not have)
06:22:02 <zzo38> Both files are public domain (which is compatible with the GNU GPL).
06:23:18 <zzo38> Do you now think this program is complete, with the changes I specified?
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06:24:29 <catseye> Hard to say if it's complete, but I can't think of any other features that I want ;)
06:24:59 <catseye> Woo, I'm building NetBSD from source...
06:25:06 <catseye> Maybe I will let this go while I sleep
06:25:18 <zzo38> catseye: Exactly! I don't think there are any other features that are needed.
06:26:46 <zzo38> If you want to use _() as an abbreviation for intl() C macros won't work. Instead do: @{ void _$() { intl$(); } @}
06:29:11 <zzo38> Rugxulo: Can be checked same account by: NS INFO catseye
06:30:10 <zzo38> Except that both "catseye" and "cpressey" are logged in now
06:31:01 <zzo38> And only "cpressey" is the one having the 330 line ("is logged in as") in the WHOIS message
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06:32:52 <zzo38> Rugxulo: Does that help you at all?
06:33:18 <Rugxulo> all I'm saying is that if it's not the same person, somebody chose a confusing nick!!
06:34:03 <zzo38> Yes and if that is the case, they took a nick that is registered under someone else's account
06:35:42 <Rugxulo> well, I don't hear cpressey complaining, so who cares I guess
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07:13:42 <Rugxulo> good thing I didn't miss much :-P
07:14:46 <zzo38> Later on I can write other programs in Enhanced CWEB which is also much smaller than GNU software, and much more efficient, and can be made into a book, even.
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07:16:04 <Rugxulo> smaller and more efficient? how?
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07:48:03 <Rugxulo> eight tabs in a row is weird, I don't know how people think that's reasonable
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07:57:23 <fizzie> Rugxulo: As far as I know, it is the same person, yes.
07:58:09 <Rugxulo> BTW, I found Ben Olmstead on the 'Net recently, he mentioned a JIT interpreter for Befunge by John Colagioia (sp?), ever heard of it?
07:58:29 <fizzie> I've heard of one; it was rather more limited than what jitfunge is aiming at.
07:58:50 <Rugxulo> basically, he said he didn't have MCBC anymore :-( but that John's JIT version was better anyways
07:58:53 <fizzie> On the other hand, I haven't made any progress on that front; too many things again.
07:59:02 <Rugxulo> yeah, real life (tm) ... I hear ya
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08:21:21 <Rugxulo> "As for 12GB of RAM? “Because I can” is one reason" ... lol !!!
08:22:10 <Rugxulo> ironic that he's blogging about memory errors
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09:16:06 <fizzie> "In August 1990 an unemployed French nuclear physicist named André Gardes attempted a singlehanded invasion of Sark, armed with a semi-automatic weapon. The night Gardes arrived he put up signs declaring his intention to take over the island the following day at noon. He was arrested while sitting on a bench, changing the gun's magazine and waiting for noon to arrive, by the island's volunteer Constable."
09:16:13 <fizzie> There's always something wonky about physicists.
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10:31:41 <cheater_> i love this page: http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/howto-linux-unix-bash-shell-setup-prompt.html
10:31:48 <cheater_> How do I add colors to my prompt?
10:31:48 <cheater_> You can change the color of your shell prompt to impress your friend or to make your own life quite easy while working at command prompt.
10:32:18 <cheater_> yes. it's that obvious. anyone who gives a shit about colorful prompts has got only one friend.
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15:17:50 <catseye> @tell Rugxulo it wasn't John Colagioia who wrote the JIT Befunge interpreter, it was Kevin Vigor.
15:18:42 <catseye> cheater_: at work I made my prompt a RAINBOW
15:26:43 <catseye> @tell elliott NetBSD takes about 2 hour to build on this machine. haven't installed it yet.
15:44:47 <Vorpal> catseye, hm compiling netbsd from another OS or?
15:49:55 <cpressey> Vorpal: no, rebuilding it on NetBSD. going to install it after I confirm by reading the manual how to do that
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15:50:17 <cpressey> It's the same version as I installed, so no change :)
15:50:31 <Vorpal> cpressey, just doing it to make sure it works then?
15:50:52 <cpressey> pretty much. practice for when i update the system sources to actually build an updated version.
15:51:14 * cpressey briefly considered running NetBSD-CURRENT
15:51:50 <cpressey> i'm too old for that sort of thing :)
15:52:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, why is netbsd called netbsd btw?
15:52:15 <Vorpal> my best guess would be same reason as nethack
15:55:21 <cpressey> It's BSD hacked on by people on the Net
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16:01:18 <coppro> my prof just 'accidentally' proved the fundamental theorem of calculus
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16:21:10 <evincar> Wow, it's more dead in here now than it was in the wee hours of the morning.
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16:34:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, isn't it the one about the relationship between integration and differentiation?
16:35:22 <Vorpal> well, google agrees with me at least
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17:17:05 <zzo38> I found a map of London Underground in the basement yesterday. Now, I just need to make a larger copy......
17:35:49 <cpressey> coppro: spontaneous human computation.
17:46:21 <cpressey> A SIMPLE ALGEBRAIC FORMALIZM FOR WEB DEVELOPMENT THAT'S ALL I ASK IS THAT SO HARD???
17:51:59 <cpressey> I wonder if there is a role for "lightly mutable" data structures in otherwise pure functional programming -- like, in ways that don't affect referential transparency
17:53:05 <cpressey> I'm thinking of memoization, I think
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17:54:27 <Zuu> memoization is just an optimization
17:54:57 <cpressey> what i was thinking of what just an optimization, too
17:54:57 <Zuu> essentially a fanzy word for 'caching of function calls'
17:56:07 <Gregor> Errr ... I don't think that something that can actually change the computational complexity of an operation should be considered a mere "optimization"
17:57:14 <cpressey> I don't see why you can't use that word, it's just that compiler writers have a limited notion of it :)
17:57:19 <Zuu> well, it's usually transparent to the user, and its intention is to not semantically affect the result in any way, so yes, i'd call it an optimization
17:57:39 <Zuu> just as swapping a bubble sort out with a merge sort is an optimization :)
17:59:04 <cpressey> oh i had some sort of insight about proofs and compilers and assembly language last night!
17:59:14 <cpressey> i'll try to remember it while i go for lunch
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18:13:36 <pikhq> Mmm, good cheddar cheese. So very delicious.
18:15:13 <Zuu> you ate pacman!
18:17:27 <cheater_> catseye: that would be totally like you.
18:28:45 <zzo38> What is the square root of your godfather's telephone number?
18:29:02 <zzo38> How many bibles have you stolen? (Use roman numerals)
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18:44:38 <cpressey> I con't know; is the "Codex of Shared Amplification" a bible?
18:44:55 <zzo38> cpressey: You decide.
18:46:49 <cpressey> ok, then only XXVII BUT I HAD A GOOD REASON
18:56:09 <cpressey> anyway, it wasn't much of an insight. it was something to the effect of: purely functional programs are (comparatively) easy to reason about, while arbitrary assembly language programs are difficult to reason about. it's hard to compile a functional program in a way that is efficient; it's (comparatively) easy to write efficient arbitrary assembly code. And, the more you restrict yourself to non-arbitrary (that is, codifiable, repeatable patterns) a
18:57:41 <cpressey> nothing really new here except that i was considering "reason about" in a formal way: e.g. if you wanted to include a machine-readable proof along with your code.
19:00:08 <pikhq> Gregor: GHC's optimization changes the complexity of operations all the *time*.
19:00:21 <pikhq> Gregor: ... Heck, even *Egobfc* changes the complexity of operations all the time.
19:00:32 <pikhq> Gregor: It swaps out an O(n) addition operation for an O(1) addition. :)
19:01:16 <Gregor> Yeahyeah, I just think maybe we should have different terms (or at least more specific terms) for constant-changing optimizations than for order-of-complexity-reducing optimizations.
19:02:21 <pikhq> Aren't the constant-changing ones pretty much all peephole optimizations?
19:02:29 <cpressey> Gregor: some would use "micro-optimization" for the first kind.
19:03:29 <cpressey> That one maybe has yet ANOTHER connotation to it, though.
19:03:37 <Gregor> pikhq: Any sort of improvement to a register allocation scheme is going to be a constant-changing optimization, but it won't necessarily be a peephole optimization.
19:04:00 <cpressey> (That is, something a programmer has manually written in the source code, not a compiler.)
19:04:05 <Gregor> (Assuming uniform but slow access to memory)
19:04:43 <pikhq> (which is a wrong assumption and has been for several decades now)
19:09:33 <Gregor> All I'm doing is removing one constant-changing optimization from the equation to focus on a different constant. It's still not going to affect the order of complexity.
19:10:14 <cpressey> But what if my caches are RAM and my main memory is a tape? Huh? What then?
19:10:42 <Gregor> cpressey: Then you're an idiot.
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19:35:19 <cpressey> http://webkit.org/projects/webkit/index.html
19:35:30 <Gregor> XCode + WebKit = if you want a header to be project-wide but not public, --- how the hell were we both just about to mention WebKit?
19:35:31 <cpressey> that's just... beautiful *snif*
19:38:42 <cpressey> also i love how the sample code on developer.apple.com is all light grey on light blue.
19:41:24 <cpressey> i should set my text editor to use those two colours. MAN. the joy my eyes would feel!
19:43:56 <olsner> hmm, light grey on light blue, isn't that pretty poor contrast?
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19:45:25 <cpressey> olsner: you be the judge: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/DisplayWebContent/Tasks/SimpleBrowsing.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20002025-CJBEHAAG
19:46:07 <Gregor> XCode + WebKit = if you want a header to be project-wide but not public, mark it "private". If you want it to be private, mark it "project".
19:46:32 <Gregor> WebKit is proof that XCode is a shitty utility, since half the build system is designed to work AROUND XCodec.
19:48:02 <olsner> cpressey: that's not so bad actually
19:50:23 <cpressey> olsner: to my eyes, it's a hair's breadth away from being invisible
19:51:51 <zzo38> I should make a larger copy of this London Underground map, and then make some cards and tokens for the game
19:53:12 <zzo38> Some stations are on two zones
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20:04:16 <Vorpal> I looked in some detail at the standard C99 math functions and found some curious stuff.
20:04:42 <zzo38> What curious stuff did you find?
20:04:53 <Vorpal> for example: double nan(char* s); // returns a nan represented by the string s
20:04:59 <Vorpal> which is a bit strange way to do it IMO
20:05:11 <Vorpal> and double remqou(double x, double y, int *quo);
20:05:15 <Vorpal> well that one is just weird
20:05:35 <Vorpal> "[...] compute the remainder and part of the quotient upon division of x by y. A few bits of the quotient are stored via the quo pointer. The remainder is returned as the function result."
20:05:41 <Vorpal> "The value stored via the quo pointer has the sign of x / y and agrees with the quotient in at least the low order 3 bits."
20:07:44 <ais523_> elliott for the logs, other people who are interested: there's a currenty hilarious proggit submission http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dwtou/stack_overflow_how_do_i_leave_my_site_vulnerable/ about an XSS vulnerability in Stack Overflow; one of the Stack Overflow admins posted to say they'd corrected it (and were annoyed at the way it was disclosed), and someone replied to him using Jeff Atwood's account saying
20:07:46 <ais523_> "I've tried being white hat with an SO employee before. All he did was change his password on one site but not any others."
20:09:46 <Vorpal> ais523_, who is Jeff Atwood?
20:09:57 <ais523_> one of the two founders of Stack Overflow
20:10:16 <ais523_> they're famous for self-promoting to relatively absurd degrees
20:10:32 <ais523_> also, one of them doesn't know much about programming; the other does, but I can never remember which is which
20:13:28 <cpressey> Oh, Jeff Atwood is the Coding Horror guy
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20:15:16 <cpressey> Therefore Joel must be the one who knows about programming :)
20:16:15 <cpressey> No, Joel actually used to be pretty sane. He just likes to talk about how he came to the deep realization that the sky is blue
20:17:44 <cpressey> "I am now quite comfortable in VB.NET or C#, despite the evils of case sensitivity." -- Jeff Atwood
20:19:47 <cpressey> "I consider the Wumpus my power animal"
20:19:48 <ais523_> hmm, now I'm curious enough to actually read some recent Coding Horror to see what it's like
20:20:22 <Vorpal> cpressey, "power animal"?
20:20:40 <olsner> Vorpal: they are mentioned in fight club
20:20:46 <cpressey> Vorpal: It links to this: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/04/your-personal-brand.html
20:20:58 <cpressey> I assume it's similar to "spirit animal" in meaning
20:21:37 <cpressey> But it's also, like, apparently his 1st experience with Hunt the Wumpus was with a *graphical* version of the game?
20:21:54 <Vorpal> cpressey, are there graphical versions of it?
20:22:11 <evincar> Vorpal: There certainly are.
20:22:16 <evincar> I wouldn't bother with them.
20:22:17 <ais523_> my first experience with it was the Linux port of the old BSD version
20:22:24 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh and, ever tried that "be the wumpus" game? Which isn't really graphical
20:22:38 <ais523_> although I knew about it before from the famous Befunge-93 program
20:22:58 <cpressey> http://www.videogamehouse.net/huntwumpus.html GRAPHICAL BASTARDIZATION
20:23:32 <cpressey> My first exposure to it was in a book compilation of programs from Creative Computing
20:24:11 <cpressey> ANYWAY, to the OTHER thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_animal
20:24:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, it's quite fun. The idea is that you play the wumpus, which is a blind animal and thus you have to try to avoid the arrows and locate the hunter to eat em by sound alone. Playable with headphones. Completely impossible with speakers.
20:24:41 <Vorpal> cpressey, list for what
20:26:01 <evincar> List of master programmers whose hearts to eat to gain their powers.
20:26:49 <cpressey> Also on list: ESR and Roger Penrose.
20:26:51 <ais523_> I can think of several sorts of List you could plausibly put Jeff Atwood on
20:26:58 <olsner> oh, is atwood worthy of membership on such a list? why?
20:27:28 <cpressey> olsner: in case you missed it: "I consider the [graphical] Wumpus my power animal" -- Jeff Atwood
20:27:37 <evincar> Well, I'd wager he's a very good programmer, but he's really a brilliant programming philosopher.
20:27:58 <evincar> He knows what programmers need to make them awesome at what they do.
20:28:01 <olsner> cpressey: hmm, that doesn't impress me... what's a wumpus?
20:28:30 <evincar> olsner: Read back a ways. :P
20:29:49 <ais523_> I'm not particularly impressed by Coding Horror so far
20:29:56 <ais523_> half of what I've read is hardware reviews, for no apparent reason
20:30:07 <ais523_> written as if they're authority passed down from God rather than subjective advice
20:30:19 <cpressey> "The power animal may also lend its ward or charge the wisdom or attributes of its kind. For example, a hawk power animal provides hawk attributes, such as hawk-eye."
20:30:35 <cpressey> Need I remind anyone what the powers of a Wumpus are.
20:30:52 <cpressey> Sticky feet to cling to sides of pits with, and smelling awful.
20:31:38 <cpressey> Oh yes, can't forget that. And eating adventurers.
20:32:02 <cpressey> All in all a really noble set of attributes.
20:33:36 <cpressey> Coding Horror has hardware reviews? Oh, this just won't stop getting "better".
20:34:24 <cpressey> Yup, a whole rant about netbooks.
20:36:25 <cpressey> There was a book that used that "Coding Horror" icon as one of its "margin icons"... i used to have a copy. It's popular and I learned nothing from it.
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20:38:01 <cpressey> I don't think it's the same book, but I associate it with one that was about code performance analysis, that explicitly eschewed asymptotic analysis as uselessly abstract, and dealt instead with concrete time measurements.
20:38:39 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Efficiency is inversely proportional to ease of formal reasoning of the code.
20:39:21 <ais523_> cpressey: if that were true, Haskell would be a lot slower than Befunge
20:39:33 <Phantom_Hoover> So easy-to-reason-with compiled code is inefficient, and efficient code is hard to reason with?
20:40:30 <ais523_> in asm or C, it might make more sense
20:40:39 <ais523_> microoptimisations often make code harder to read
20:40:43 <cpressey> Try to factor compilation out.
20:41:05 <cpressey> ais523_: A Haskell interpreter of the same complexity as your average Befunge interpreter would be a lot slower than Befunge.
20:41:50 <ais523_> hmm, I thought you meant "interpreter written in Haskell" vs "interpreter written in Befunge"
20:42:36 <cpressey> Maybe I'll just repeat my original summary without trying to compress it
20:42:37 <cpressey> 12:55 < cpressey> anyway, it wasn't much of an insight. it was something to the effect of: purely functional programs are (comparatively) easy to reason about, while arbitrary assembly language programs are difficult to reason about. it's hard to compile a functional program in a way that is efficient; it's (comparatively) easy to write efficient
20:42:42 <cpressey> arbitrary asembly code. And, the more you restsrict yourself to non-arbitrary (that is, codifiable, repeatable patterns) assembly code, it becomes easier to reason about, but harder to make efficient.
20:43:26 <cpressey> < cpressey> nothing really new here except that i was considering "reason about" in a formal way: e.g. if you wanted to include a machine-readable proof along with your code.
20:44:04 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, forget this! Let's talk about Jeff Atwood's power animal instead!
20:44:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: It's the Wumpus!
20:46:04 <ais523_> cpressey: well, it's easier to embed higher-order typed lambda calculus into hardware using the method I'm using in my research, than it is to embed typical asms with GOTO
20:46:13 <ais523_> the second would require large, inefficient workarounds
20:46:42 <cpressey> ais523_: I should add "on present models of hardware computation" to my insight, then
20:46:43 <ais523_> so perhaps the insight is that the sort of asm today's processors require isn't very suited for formal reasoning
20:47:06 <ais523_> I think it becomes relatively clear why it is, if you do that
20:47:37 <ais523_> asm in general is hard to reason about; subsets may be easier, but it would be a huge coincidence if any given algorithm's fastest implementation happened to fall into one of those subsets
20:49:53 <cpressey> Now I want to see some proofs that extremely gory assembly programs are correct
20:50:37 <cpressey> OK, well, n/m... I have too many interests
20:51:00 <Gregor> Write a formal semantics for assembly, choose what you want to proof, feed it all into Cock^H^Hq, voila :P
20:53:56 <cpressey> That's kind of it, though. Any practical assembly language will have a horrible, horrible semantics that will make Coq... unhappy.
20:54:14 <cpressey> Anything with a nice semantics, otoh, will be too slow :)
21:06:45 <coppro> http://pleasingfungus.com/
21:22:29 <pikhq> My IPv6 tunnel no longer works. I know not why.
21:28:12 <cheater99> if it is impossible to patent protocols..
21:28:27 <cheater99> would it be possible to create a language which is expressed through protocols..
21:31:10 <evincar> cpressey: Like anything else, you can only patent it if you a formal specification of it.
21:31:37 <evincar> But it brought me back an asterisk.
21:40:56 <Vorpal> <olsner> cpressey: hmm, that doesn't impress me... what's a wumpus? <-- did you seriously not know what a wumpus is?
21:41:41 <Vorpal> olsner, next you will claim to not know what colossal cave adventure is!
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21:42:01 <olsner> Vorpal: indeed I don't
21:42:17 <olsner> I assume it's an adventure game, since the wumpus game is (right?)
21:42:32 <olsner> but even though I have heard of the wumpus game, I have no idea what a wumpus is
21:43:35 <cpressey> the wumpus is the antagonist of the wumpus game.
21:44:15 <olsner> (line 1 and 2 are in response to the colossal cave adventure, line 3 verifying I don't know what a wumpus is)
21:45:48 <cpressey> OH GOD all the top google hits for online versions are graphical.
21:46:00 <Gregor> cpressey: Seems to me like YOU'RE the antagonist. The wumpus is just trying to live its life, and you're hunting it.
21:46:13 <cpressey> That's better: http://scv.bu.edu/cgi-bin/wcl
21:46:18 <Gregor> <evincar> cpressey: Like anything else, you can only patent it if you a formal specification of it. // remove the word "formal" or I'll remove your face.
21:46:33 <cpressey> Gregor: Indeed so. I see a humanties paper here somewhere.
21:46:39 <olsner> I think YOU'RE by definition the protagonist, and it's always the OTHER thing that's the antagonist
21:48:28 <cpressey> olsner: read: http://www.atariarchives.org/bcc1/showpage.php?page=247
21:49:27 <ais523_> Gregor: "you can only patent it if you a specification of it"?
21:51:17 <Vorpal> <olsner> I assume it's an adventure game, since the wumpus game is (right?) <-- uh...
21:51:39 <ais523_> one with quite a high chance of failure even with perfect play
21:52:01 <Vorpal> olsner, and colossal cave adventure was the first text adventure game.
21:52:38 <Vorpal> <Gregor> cpressey: Seems to me like YOU'RE the antagonist. The wumpus is just trying to live its life, and you're hunting it. <-- go play "be the wumpus" then
21:53:49 <Vorpal> ais523_, don't forget the pits
21:54:03 <ais523_> they are considerably more fatal than the bats
21:54:12 * ais523_ wonders what the optimal HtW strategy is
21:54:46 <Vorpal> ais523_, I seem to remember that the b93 htw was quite easy, compared to the classical one
21:54:56 <Vorpal> probably due to lack of being able to make anything complex in b93
21:55:08 <ais523_> the classical one's very simple too
21:55:28 <Vorpal> ais523_, hm well the bsd one then
21:55:35 <ais523_> it's that one I was talking about
21:55:40 <ais523_> it's relatively hard, but very simple
21:55:59 <Vorpal> the b93 one has unlimited arrows iirc
21:56:18 <ais523_> ah, that would help quite a lot
21:57:58 <cpressey> oh... I don't even know where to begin
21:58:44 <cpressey> People who don't believe in attributes-beginning-with-an-underscore in Python because "nothing is really private anyway".
21:59:40 <cpressey> The term "script kiddie for life" comes to mind, I guess.
22:00:17 <Vorpal> hm, from the "be the wumpus" website: "WARNING -- this game does contain small amounts of sounds of people speaking words which some people might consider profane. If you are apt to be offended by the numbers in a .wav file when run through a D/A converter, and then the analog signal amplified then run through a loudspeaker of some kind, well, you may have a problem with my numbers then, I suppose. Thin
22:00:17 <Vorpal> g is, it's your problem, not mine. You've been warned. And what sorts of things would you expect people trapped in a dark cave with a hungry wumpus to say?"
22:15:34 <cpressey> olsner: so you've read that article now, RIGHT?
22:17:49 <cpressey> And now you know what a Wumpus is!
22:18:25 <olsner> yes, turns out it's COMPLETELY FICTIONAL!
22:19:11 <Vorpal> ais523_, do you have any idea why man 3 pow has such a *huge* list of special casing the behaviour?
22:19:26 <ais523_> Vorpal: because floating-point is evil
22:19:38 <ais523_> IEEE floating point inherently has quite a lot of special cases
22:19:39 <Vorpal> ais523_, yes but pow() is a lot worse than, say, sqrt() or even log()
22:19:56 <ais523_> so you have to consider all the special cases for each arguments
22:20:20 <cpressey> olsner: Not only fictional, but also kind of a side-effect of the design of the game!
22:20:27 <Vorpal> ais523_, and even worse for my intended application
22:20:54 <ais523_> why are you intending an application that cares about the corner cases of exponentiation?
22:21:12 <Vorpal> ais523_, which would be a formally speced math.h so I can use that prove an app. However that involves proving that the different behaviour cases are pair-wise disjoint...
22:21:18 <Vorpal> which will be absurd for pow()
22:21:42 <cpressey> "proof" and "floating point" in the same sentence
22:21:51 <Vorpal> cpressey, it is possible actually.
22:22:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, look at frama-c + why + gappa
22:23:03 <Vorpal> cpressey, I do not intend to prove pow() but I intend to spec it's behaviour according to the C standard so I can use this as an "axiom" to prove the code I'm interested in proving
22:23:35 <ais523_> with floating point, not even addition is commutative
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22:40:58 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, wasn't there a library for Coq that worked with FP?
22:51:35 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: No se habla Coq.
22:52:10 <cpressey> (Nor Spanish, so that is probably ungrammatical)
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22:59:13 <cpressey> I want to prove rewriting things -- using a rewrite system to do it :)
23:17:15 <olsner> I was thinking about making a compiler for sed
23:18:24 <olsner> don't have any problems that are interesting enough to allow optimizations to be useful, while at the same time being simple enough that anyone can be bothered solving it in sed
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23:27:52 <elliott> oh shit my ignore didn't carry over the upgrade
23:27:53 <storkbot> elliott: catseye told me to tell you: NetBSD takes about 2 hour to build on this machine. haven't installed it yet.
23:28:19 <elliott> 00:21:21 <Rugxulo> "As for 12GB of RAM? “Because I can†is one reason" ... lol !!!
23:28:19 <elliott> 00:22:10 <Rugxulo> ironic that he's blogging about memory errors
23:28:27 <elliott> anyway, bsmntbombdood has 12GiB :p
23:29:12 <Vorpal> elliott, that quote looked fucked up, was it from clog messing it up?
23:29:31 <elliott> Vorpal: rather from tunes.org not sending character encoding headers
23:29:43 <elliott> although i suppose irc has no real encoding :)
23:33:13 <cpressey> Oh, "Code Complete" is the name of that book. And he stole the icon *from* it, not vice-versa or anything.
23:34:10 <elliott> i can say this without even having seen the other qusetion because it's so obvious what you're referring to :)
23:34:19 <elliott> cpressey: he stole it with PERMISSION, though!
23:34:29 <elliott> cpressey: i had an insane dream and you were the central character!
23:34:34 <cpressey> elliott: If you read the logs you'll discover... the List.
23:34:49 <elliott> cpressey: well you weren't being a very good cpressey.
23:35:01 <Sgeo> Choose my language: Haskell, Factor, or Smalltalk
23:35:33 <cpressey> Sgeo: http://www.fuxi.org/EN/index.htm
23:36:10 <Sgeo> Is using Flash on the front page supposed to make me like it?
23:36:14 <elliott> cpressey: I mean, you had made catseye.tc show a page about how you and your wife were going to commit suicide on the [day] with the help of some, uhh, guy, and that guy was also one of the leaders of uh something you were trying to protest by doing this. I went "NOOOOOO" and the like on IRC and since this is a dream apparently IRC is in-person and you decided that this was the perfect time to have us meet your wife, who is a mermaid except more
23:36:14 <elliott> like a dolphin-mermaid and also she's a (demi-?)god and this is why we'd never met her before.
23:36:21 <elliott> cpressey: Then the whole thing turned into a parody of Scooby Doo.
23:36:31 <Sgeo> Those in the market for languages are not mainstream audiences
23:36:58 <Sgeo> Dear Fuxi website: Please don't use Flash for navigation
23:37:02 <cpressey> elliott: Yes! That is my real life in a nutshell.
23:37:13 <elliott> cpressey: I thought so. So when are you going to kill yourself?
23:37:31 <cpressey> elliott: I have it written down somewhere
23:38:02 <Sgeo> "it takes a conventional syntactic system, that makes the programmers with some experiences of C++, JAVA, use the language without any training;"
23:38:29 <Sgeo> It better not have C++ and Java as subsets
23:38:40 <elliott> cpressey: Sgeo is going to decide that fuxi has interesting aspects now.
23:38:57 <Sgeo> elliott, um, my first impression so far is negative
23:39:09 <cpressey> Sgeo: You should try reading the spec. It's in Chinese.
23:39:42 <cpressey> Sgeo: But, uh, what am I choosing your language for?
23:39:42 <elliott> 21:04:29 * catseye_ considers starting out with "#include <html>"...
23:39:56 <Sgeo> cpressey, I assume there's an English translation?
23:40:05 <Sgeo> cpressey, to be my returning love affair
23:40:14 <cpressey> Sgeo: Of the spec? Not that I've found
23:40:19 <elliott> Sgeo: one of those languages is going to have a baby one day
23:40:19 * Sgeo is currently thinking quite a bit about Haskell
23:40:22 <elliott> and you'll have to pay child support
23:40:40 <elliott> /*<style>body *{display:none} #foo {display:block}</style><div id=foo>
23:40:52 <elliott> might take some more element coercion
23:41:17 <Sgeo> "it collects active, remote, mobile and persistent objects in a transparent way, through some orthogonal styles;"
23:41:27 <Sgeo> That sounded good right up to "orthogonal"
23:41:40 <Sgeo> Oh, actually, it makes sense
23:43:15 <Sgeo> Variables store both a value and a pointer?
23:43:45 <cpressey> Now I feel bad for throwing that in your path, Sgeo
23:43:49 <Sgeo> Unless it can't do both
23:43:53 <cpressey> I've barely looked at it myself
23:43:58 <Sgeo> Maybe I should just read the damn spec
23:44:21 <Sgeo> If it can't do both, that's ok. Except the explanation is a bit WTFy
23:45:05 <Sgeo> Yeah, they don't do both. Unless test() is some quantum weirdness
23:45:31 <Sgeo> I keep seeing bad thing, then realizing that it's not actually that bad
23:46:56 <Sgeo> Whoever wrote this needs to be hit on the head for making the language look more incomprehensible than it actually is
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23:47:19 <Sgeo> "But expressions in Fuxi can terminate naturally, without any delimiters."
23:47:36 <Sgeo> I'd headdesk, but I'm sure an explanation will be forthcoming eventually
23:47:58 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:48:21 <Sgeo> Oh, well, if an operator takes two arguments, and functions, etc etc., what do you need statement delimeters for
23:48:28 <Sgeo> And this is where pikhq_ hits me
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23:48:47 <elliott> pikhq is just punching you because he hates you
23:49:00 <elliott> cpressey: We should try and devise a language so horrible that Sgeo will still like it.
23:49:21 <Sgeo> Fuxi keeps being not as horrible as I imagine
23:49:30 <Sgeo> It just needs decent documentation
23:50:10 <elliott> cpressey: Literally impossible.
23:50:16 <cpressey> Sgeo: No, YOU need to learn Chinese.
23:50:31 <Vorpal> "Your search - Fuxi esolang - did not match any documents. "
23:50:33 -!- augur has joined.
23:51:03 <Vorpal> just two flash animations
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23:51:10 <Sgeo> Fuxi {} blocks are fucked up
23:51:26 <Vorpal> cpressey, I did. Just two flash ones again
23:52:02 <Sgeo> {}, which is syntactic sugar for a bunch of &&, should absolutely NOT be described as similar to blocks in C/C++
23:52:05 <Vorpal> elliott, want some possible ideas for horrible languages?
23:52:11 <cpressey> Vorpal: the one on the right is a menu
23:52:18 <elliott> Vorpal: No, C++ will provide plenty.
23:52:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, well I don't have flash
23:52:23 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
23:52:25 <cpressey> Vorpal: http://www.fuxi.org/EN/whitepaper.htm
23:52:40 <Sgeo> I cannot forgive the documentation now
23:52:41 <Vorpal> elliott, my first idea was "Malbolge2EE"
23:52:57 <elliott> I think I'm going to uninstall my web browser and then act like people should have to provide me content without having one.
23:53:01 <Sgeo> Actually... I kind of see the rationale
23:53:10 <Sgeo> Assignments are boolean expressions
23:53:20 <Vorpal> cpressey, it uses god damn double width font
23:53:25 <Sgeo> If one fails, the block returns false... that still kind of is a sucky way to deal with errors
23:53:26 <cpressey> Vorpal: You may prefer http://www.fuxi.org/ZH/whitepaper.htm
23:53:38 <Vorpal> well I can't read that
23:53:40 <elliott> Vorpal REALLY hates double width fonts.
23:53:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I find it VERY hard to read
23:54:21 <cpressey> Not as hard as Han characters, I imagine
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23:54:33 <Sgeo> ......I hate Fuxi
23:54:36 <elliott> Not unless your brain is completely broken.
23:54:40 <Sgeo> let{ <variable-list> } in <sequence> (10)
23:54:41 <Vorpal> anyway, I worked around it. firebug is an awesome extension
23:54:48 <Vorpal> just add lang="en" to the body element
23:54:50 <elliott> HardER, yes. VERY HARD, no.
23:54:59 <elliott> Sgeo: ...what's wrong with that?
23:55:00 <Vorpal> that makes firefox switch over to proper rendering of English
23:55:00 <Sgeo> Basically, assignments INSIDE the block aren't scoped to stay in the block. To do that, you use a let statement that contains the block
23:55:12 <elliott> omg a let statement how awful
23:55:20 <elliott> providing an alternative to imperative assignment
23:55:29 <elliott> cpressey: it's not *that* bad, afaict
23:55:34 <elliott> since assignment is an imperative thing
23:56:05 <cpressey> elliott: It's mainly the Hey What It's All In Chinese thing.
23:56:10 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm ok with imperative assignment. I'm not ok with imperative assignments having global scope, while telling people that the language is similar enough to C++ and Java
23:56:13 <elliott> cpressey: Oh no, the language is terrible.
23:56:16 <elliott> cpressey: The assignment isn't.
23:56:23 <elliott> Sgeo is just excellent at hating the opposite things that he should.
23:56:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, the grammar in that link is.... really interesting
23:56:40 <elliott> Vorpal: "has"/"had"/"have" -- you, in all the wrong situations
23:57:01 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but that one I don't notice so much :P
23:57:34 <cpressey> I had the impression "let statement that contains the block" meant the block was contained in one of the *bindings* of the let statement, or something.
23:57:46 <cpressey> But then, it's been a long day.
23:57:58 <elliott> cpressey: Nope, just that a variable assignment persists beyond a block, and if you want to scope it to a block, you have to use let.
23:58:03 <elliott> Which, really, isn't *that* horrible.
23:58:08 <Sgeo> '" Fuxi does not provide constructs for looping, like for-statement or while-statement."
23:58:16 <elliott> Sgeo: Neither does Haskell.
23:58:18 <Sgeo> Can I curse Fuxi for false advertising again?
23:58:25 <cpressey> Not compared to say Python, which does that, except without the benefit of a "let" to reign it in
23:58:28 <Sgeo> elliott, Haskell does not claim to be easy for Java and C++ programmers
23:58:37 <elliott> Sgeo: If they provide an equivalent construct in the library, that does not invalidate their statement.
23:59:16 <Vorpal> um, tail recursion isn't hard to learn for an imperative programmer
23:59:18 <cpressey> Sgeo: If you fall in love with Haskell, I'll be slightly less creeped out than if you fall in love with Factor or Smalltalk.
23:59:41 <elliott> cpressey: As long as he doesn't make out with it in here.
23:59:53 <Sgeo> "1) it takes a conventional syntactic system, that makes the programmers with some experiences of C++, JAVA, use the language without any training;"
00:00:06 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, further bad language ideas: coqtalk
00:00:14 <elliott> Sgeo: How do you know the syntax isn't flexible enough to do that with a library function?
00:00:15 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm taking "any" too literally
00:00:31 <Sgeo> Hmm, good point
00:00:33 <elliott> Sgeo: Do they need to know how while is implemented?
00:03:16 <cpressey> Sgeo: It was not written by a native English speaker, so, yes, you are/
00:03:41 <Sgeo> Am I inadverdantly causing this channel to like a language?
00:03:47 * Sgeo feels like he has a superpower
00:05:10 <cpressey> "A Picture viewer and media player, which is designed for some GPS handhold device." --
00:05:33 * Sgeo is not entirely sure what the difference between = and <- is
00:05:40 <elliott> just you hate it for the wrong reasons
00:05:44 <elliott> *we* hate it because it's not Apex
00:05:56 <elliott> right, cpressey's dolphin-mermaid god-wife cunningly disguised as cpressey?
00:06:25 <cpressey> no more banana pepper ice cream floats before bedtime for you!
00:06:32 <Sgeo> There are no examples of ->
00:07:26 <Sgeo> "active mobile native persistent"
00:07:38 <Sgeo> It has some sort of builtin OO DB?
00:10:04 <cpressey> elliott: what was the name of that minimal python editor in python, again?
00:11:25 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/yaedit
00:11:28 <elliott> this is why i don't use bookmarks
00:11:36 <elliott> I found that just by remembering "logarithmic.net"
00:11:49 <elliott> cpressey: I tried it out and it's totally cool but it has deficiencies.
00:12:00 <elliott> cpressey: For instance while it does the auto-save thing it has no VCS support making it a bit of a bitch.
00:12:05 <elliott> cpressey: Also no auto-indent.
00:12:11 <elliott> cpressey: Well, there's copy-indent-of-last-line.
00:13:46 <cpressey> well, i figured i wanted to try it, at least
00:14:14 <elliott> cpressey: What you need to use is leaden!
00:14:24 <elliott> cpressey: Which I am either going to code, or Kayak, right now!
00:14:46 <cpressey> Is Kayak your web browser? The log was way too long for me to dig through
00:15:21 * Sgeo needs a tutorial on Haskell zippers, other than that one with that greek gaming company
00:15:41 <elliott> cpressey: It displays web pages!
00:16:29 <elliott> Kayak (Mozilla/5.0; Gecko; WebKit/531.2+; Safari/531.2+; Version/5.0)
00:16:35 <elliott> cpressey: And it has this unbelievable user agent!
00:17:08 <cpressey> I need food. And after the Jeff Atwood-related Horrors experienced here, drink. Much drunk.
00:17:08 <Sgeo> Any good tutorial other than http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Zippers
00:17:18 <Sgeo> Last time I looked at it, it gave me a headache
00:17:22 <cpressey> though the fruedieanness of that is inarguable
00:17:49 <elliott> cpressey: is it JUICY atwood bullshit
00:18:05 <cpressey> elliott: No, it is CREEPY atwood bullshit.
00:18:26 <elliott> cpressey: elaborate slightly
00:19:15 <cpressey> elliott: OK: "I consider the Wumpus my power animal" -- Jeff Atwood
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00:20:47 <cpressey> thankfully he never had my respect in the first place
00:25:57 <elliott> cpressey: leaden or kayak, which should I work on
00:26:02 <elliott> kayak already has some code done :p
00:26:06 <elliott> (leaden did but it is lost)
00:28:19 -!- augur has joined.
00:30:37 <cpressey> elliott: vagrant! rewrite it in Fuxi!
00:30:57 <cpressey> if you were looking for anything like a serious opinion,
00:31:05 <cpressey> I would get more use out of leaden, probably.
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00:48:36 <Gregor> I preordered the Barbie Computer Engineer doll, and every month Mattel emails me to tell me it's still not available. ... in spite of the fact that the site said it wouldn't be available 'til late November ANYWAY. Thanks for the utterly redundant emails there, Mattel.
00:48:58 -!- Sasha2 has changed nick to Sasha.
00:49:01 <elliott> Gregor: whoa, wasn't it decided on like last year?
00:49:14 <elliott> Gregor: How hard is it to create barbies :P
00:49:22 <Gregor> elliott: They create them for the "holiday season"
00:49:35 <elliott> For all those girls BEGGING for a computer engineer doll
00:49:38 <Gregor> elliott: They only start selling them once they become Christmas gifts :P
00:49:54 <elliott> Gregor: or more likely unwashed middle-age men who will do HORRIBLE HORRIBLE THINGS to them
00:50:02 * elliott worst mental vision ever aaargh
00:50:15 <Gregor> Horrible, pointy things.
00:50:19 <elliott> Coming soon to a basement near you: "...sheesh, that's not even *vaguely* anatomically correct! :("
00:50:25 <elliott> "...oh well *fap fap fap fap fap*"
00:50:32 -!- Sasha has changed nick to Chachi.
00:59:45 <pikhq> It still amazes me that a Congress-critter wanted to enact a law that would allow for the removal of citizenship of "terrorists".
01:00:22 <pikhq> I can't remember who the moron was, but still, how fucking ignorant of how anything works do you have to be to make that seem like a good idea?
01:03:08 <elliott> 12:07:44 <ais523_> elliott for the logs, other people who are interested: there's a currenty hilarious proggit submission http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dwtou/stack_overflow_how_do_i_leave_my_site_vulnerable/ about an XSS vulnerability in Stack Overflow; one of the Stack Overflow admins posted to say they'd corrected it (and were annoyed at the way it was disclosed), and someone replied to him using Jeff Atwood's account saying
01:03:09 <elliott> 12:07:46 <ais523_> "I've tried being white hat with an SO employee before. All he did was change his password on one site but not any others."
01:03:15 <elliott> I didn't see "Jeff"'s reply
01:03:19 <elliott> But I saw the other one and commented on it here
01:03:31 <pikhq> And presumably he was completely ignorant of how statelessness works, as well.
01:03:41 <Sgeo> FWIW, the deleted account's name was "codinghorror"
01:03:51 <pikhq> (if you become stateless, you get essentially automatic asylum status ANYWHERE.)
01:03:51 <Sgeo> For some reason, it displays on Reddit is Fun
01:04:10 <pikhq> ... Yes, this does in fact imply that someone who lost US citizenship could claim asylum status *in the US*.
01:04:11 <Sgeo> pikhq, I was ignorant about that until just now
01:04:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: *That* is something not many people know.
01:04:58 <elliott> 12:27:37 <evincar> Well, I'd wager he's a very good programmer, but he's really a brilliant programming philosopher.
01:04:58 <elliott> 12:27:58 <evincar> He knows what programmers need to make them awesome at what they do.
01:05:00 <pikhq> But quite true. International treaties on statelessness make it so.
01:05:32 <elliott> pikhq: It's not something states *want* people to know, I would guess.
01:05:59 <Sgeo> Gregor, can you recommend me a good tutorial on Haskell Zippers?
01:06:08 <pikhq> But surely a Congresscritter would be told about it pretty quickly.
01:06:15 <pikhq> Oh, right. Congress. Morons.
01:06:16 <Gregor> pikhq, can you recommend Sgeo a good tutorial on Haskell zippers?
01:07:01 <pikhq> I just know it's some sort of fancy list-like datastructure. ... Yeeeahh, that's not helpful at all. :)
01:09:04 <Sgeo> Something to do with keeping track of where you are in a datastructure, I think
01:09:36 <elliott> Sgeo: CAN YOU RECOMMEND ME A GOOD TUTORIAL ON *H*ASKELL *Z*IPPERS?!?!?!2
01:10:58 <pikhq> My goodness that's amusing. Because the PRC and the ROC both claim each other, de jure each citizen of either country is citizen of both.
01:11:28 <Gregor> pikhq: They both want defectors that much too.
01:11:45 <elliott> pikhq: for some definition of de jure involving two different authorities at once
01:11:55 <Sgeo> I'll try the stupid Wikibooks thing again
01:12:02 <elliott> the only de jure position any entity can hold is that every citizen of either landmass/authority is the citizen of only one of them
01:12:11 <elliott> as you can't recognise both of them at once
01:12:16 <elliott> technically, you could recognise one of them, I suppose
01:12:39 <pikhq> Gregor: De facto, citizens of the ROC are citizens of the PRC but not the other way around.
01:13:19 <elliott> pikhq: I don't think the PRC has police working in the ROC.
01:13:24 <elliott> Therefore your definition of de facto sucks ass :P
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01:13:30 <pikhq> Because the ROC makes a distinction between the area occupied by the PRC and that occupied by the ROC. People from the area occuppied by the PRC do not have right of abode in the ROC.
01:13:39 <pikhq> elliott: It's ROC law that makes it that way, not PRC law.
01:13:58 * elliott gives up on reading/understanding that
01:15:03 <pikhq> elliott: The ROC has a notion of citizenship that applies to people in the PRC as well. But all the usual rights of citizenship are instead bestowed upon "nationals".
01:15:55 <pikhq> Which is an entirely seperate classification that basically applies to people in the area governed by the ROC and their descendents.
01:16:06 <elliott> "Nota Bene: this is not a public access server. Unless you are duly authorised, you are required to disconnect immediately. All your transactions are logged and monitored. If you disagree with this, disconnect immediately. In the interest of security, we reserve the right to scan your machine automatically and aggressively (including OS detection, port scanning and other intruder detection aids at our
01:16:06 <elliott> discretion). If you do not concede to any of this, disconnect immediately." -- a *web page*
01:16:28 <elliott> Good thing I'd already disconnected by then!
01:17:30 <pikhq> Aaand travel between the PRC, ROC, Hong Kong and Macau is determined by internal passports issued by the governments in question. SUCH A HEADACHE.
01:17:40 <catseye> < elliott> *Atwood*? <-- I just assumed evincar is a master of deadpan.
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01:19:37 <elliott> catseye: WebKit(Gtk)'s API is weiiird
01:19:53 <elliott> catseye: The icon-loaded signal gives you the URI to the favicon even if the favicon doesn't exist, not, say, an image or NULL
01:20:00 <elliott> That's... totally not helpful WebKit(Gtk)
01:20:08 <catseye> elliott: yeah! i believe it! i had to dig through it(Cocoa) a bit today
01:20:23 <Gregor> elliott: If I was to forceably normalize a site to use just one font, what would be the least offensive, most redistributable font I could use? This being if I were to even lose sans/serif/mono information for instance.
01:20:31 <elliott> catseye: oh the webkitgtk api in general is nice and simple (something cocoa is allergic to)
01:20:38 <elliott> Gregor: Try not to lose such information :P
01:21:06 <Gregor> Well, we'll step up from there on keeping sans and serif :P
01:21:20 <elliott> Gregor: (To imagine what kind of question you just posed me, imagine someone asking "What computer should I buy and what language should I program in on it?" and when asked for further detail can't give any)
01:21:28 <elliott> Gregor: (Or rather, gives the detail "for ALL USES")
01:21:40 <pikhq> So, it's easier to move from the ROC to the PRC than vice versa... Weird.
01:21:50 <elliott> Gregor: I assume it has to be Free as in Fucking, not just, say, free-to-redistribute-but-totally-proprietary-licensed?
01:21:50 <Gregor> elliott: Well, the great thing about this use (WebSplat, duh) is that it kinda doesn't matter how readable it is. They're just platforms.
01:22:37 <elliott> Gregor: Okay -- Liberation (Sans|Serif|Mono) or Free(Sans|Serif|Mono). Liberation Sans' "J" is freaky so I'd go for the Free ones, but whatever.
01:22:48 <elliott> Gregor: Metric-compatibility with Microsoft fonts is the reason.
01:22:58 <elliott> Gregor: Shitty sites whose layout breaks without the right metrics will still function :P
01:23:16 <Gregor> Wow, I didn't even know there were fonts that aimed for that level of compatibility.
01:23:17 <elliott> Gregor: Liberation Serif is classier than FreeSerif, but I'd go for the same family if you do distinguish.
01:23:30 <elliott> Gregor: The Nimbus fonts also do that but they're beyond hideous.
01:23:39 <elliott> (At least when browsers render them)
01:24:15 <elliott> Gregor: So, uh, you may want to avoid them. As unto fire.
01:24:41 <Gregor> And iff, due to the fact that it's not always clear what serifness is appropriate, I were to lose that information in SOME cases, should I prefer sans or serif? Keeping in mind again that they're platforms :P
01:24:41 <elliott> Gregor: Liberation is GPL(2, presumably) with font embedding exception.
01:25:14 <elliott> Gregor: Well, browsers default to serif. So there's always that. But >50% sites that do set a font set it to sans, I would imagine. (Although not >50% of well-designed websites.)
01:25:26 <elliott> Gregor: So it's totally your call; I'd test to see which is less ugly.
01:25:37 <Gregor> I am incapable of making that distinction.
01:25:47 <elliott> Gregor: Give me alpha versions and I'll tell you :P
01:25:51 <elliott> Gregor: If the Serif or Sans of whichever family you choose is less ugly than the other, that'd probably be the one to go for.
01:25:54 * pikhq has the font default to sans...
01:26:27 <pikhq> elliott: I'll use serif fonts the day I get a 600dpi monitor.
01:26:41 <Gregor> elliott: Probably goin' with Liberation, and defaulting to sans simply because I feel a (slightly) simpler font would distract less, since you're not supposed to be reading it :P
01:26:45 <elliott> pikhq: You already *have* a higher PPI monitor than you think due to subpixel rendering.
01:26:51 <elliott> Gregor: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/FreeSansDemonstration.png Stunning grammar here from the FreeSans people
01:26:55 <elliott> a font, in mixed case isn't
01:26:56 <Gregor> Now I just have to normalize on window width and things SHOULD be consistent >_>
01:27:08 <elliott> Gregor: Or slightly wider/taller but not 1024x768
01:27:10 <pikhq> elliott: Insufficiently!
01:27:13 <elliott> Some of us have screens that are x768 >_>
01:27:24 <Gregor> elliott: Height doesn't matter much. Why not 1024?
01:27:37 <elliott> Gregor: Well, sure, 1024 would be fine.
01:28:09 <elliott> Gregor: Just tried that with Kayak and it's a nice size although dangerously close to my taskbar.
01:28:12 <elliott> (I couldn't have two panels like that.)
01:28:36 <elliott> Gregor: 1024x650 is also good although very widescreen.
01:28:53 <elliott> Gregor: 1024x675 strangely seems less widescreen.
01:28:59 <Gregor> elliott: Err, lemme be more clear: My hope is to lie to the renderer and tell WebSplat the truth. So you could use any size, it'll just look more and more weird the farther your actual window size is from the lied one.
01:29:08 <Gregor> elliott: It would even work with a smaller size, you'll just scroll more.
01:29:21 <catseye> the normalization, she is for the multiplayer, yes?
01:29:26 <elliott> Gregor: Then you won't specify a height at all.
01:29:32 <elliott> Gregor: Or, well, the renderer has to report one.
01:29:40 <elliott> Gregor: So just say 600 :P
01:29:49 <Gregor> elliott: It can be more-or-less arbitraryish.
01:29:49 <elliott> Gregor: But make the default window size 1024x675 :P
01:30:03 <Gregor> How about I make the default window size whatever you set it to :P
01:30:11 <elliott> Gregor: But you need a stock default! :P
01:30:23 <elliott> Gregor: Also, btw, pywebkitgtk is very nice.
01:30:29 <elliott> It *is* Python, and it *is* gtk, but...
01:30:36 <elliott> It's ridiculously trivial to get something going.
01:30:40 <Gregor> Is there a pywebkitqt?
01:30:46 <elliott> Gregor: Not that I know of.
01:30:56 <elliott> Gregor: But get over it, you already have Gtk on your system :P
01:30:57 <Gregor> Also, I'm almost certain I'll have to hack at WebKit proper to lie in the ways I need to >_>
01:31:02 <elliott> Unless you're a software hermit.
01:31:11 <elliott> Gregor: http://webkitgtk.org/reference/index.html
01:31:20 <elliott> Gregor: (The same API applies to pywebkitgtk except you stick .s in :P)
01:31:21 <Gregor> There ... is a webkitgtk.org ...
01:31:23 <catseye> Gregor: there's a pyqt w/webkit unless i'm mistaked
01:31:29 <elliott> Gregor: The Gtk thing is actually a port
01:31:34 <Gregor> Ohright, WebKit is officially part of Qt.
01:31:43 <elliott> Gregor: Right, but that involves writing C++.
01:31:43 <Gregor> elliott: But ... GTK support is in WebKit trunk ...
01:31:45 <elliott> And nobody likes writing C++.
01:31:56 <Gregor> elliott: I've hacked at WebKit. A lot. :(
01:31:59 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, well, this gives a GTK-flavoured API or something?
01:32:06 <elliott> Gregor: I don't know. It's what has a Python binding.
01:32:17 <elliott> Gregor: And you can just put it in a GtkScrolledWindow and everything works :P
01:32:19 <Gregor> I'm just blathering at this point :P
01:32:48 <elliott> Gregor: http://sprunge.us/SFHj pywebkitgtk example
01:32:55 <elliott> Gregor: (Including my code to figure out how favicon notification works!)
01:33:02 <elliott> FEEL THE GUIDO-ESQUE SIMPLICITY
01:33:13 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, I'd steal my user agent-setting code.
01:33:18 <elliott> Gregor: And *yes* all that is required.
01:33:23 <elliott> *Yes* I tested N subsets of that.
01:33:28 <elliott> *No* they did not fool many common websites.
01:33:35 <elliott> Such as Google, Google Images, and GMail.
01:33:36 <pikhq> elliott: PyQt involves writing Python.
01:33:43 <elliott> pikhq: It has no WebKit binding.
01:33:52 <elliott> pikhq: Besides, PyQt is ... ugly.
01:33:56 <elliott> SIGNALS AND SLOTS WOOOOOOOO
01:34:00 <elliott> More like signals and sluts.
01:34:02 <pikhq> elliott: I've built that sucker. It damned well has a WebKit binding.
01:34:20 <catseye> i believe i side with pikhq here
01:34:24 <elliott> pikhq: While Qt's UI may be nicer than Gtk, its Python API is not.
01:34:31 <elliott> Yes, GTK is ugly as fuck in C.
01:34:37 <catseye> some dude @work is using pyqt for webkit
01:34:37 <elliott> But when you put it in a language with actual objects...
01:34:50 <pikhq> The only upside of GObjects is that it's easy to bind.
01:34:54 <elliott> Gregor: Also I refuse to do font decisions if you don't use WebKitGtk.
01:34:59 <Gregor> Imma let you guys duke it out 'cuz I'd be perfectly happy slapping shit together in C++ X-D
01:35:06 <pikhq> And that's the *principle* downside of C++...
01:35:08 <elliott> pikhq: Qt has a motherfucking compiler from extended C++ to C++.
01:35:19 <elliott> pikhq: And its own Makefile generator.
01:35:22 <Gregor> pikhq: A motherfucking compiler is the worst kind of compiler.
01:35:23 <pikhq> elliott: Which only makes things worse.
01:35:24 <elliott> pikhq: And its own EVERY FUCKING CLASS EVER
01:35:37 <elliott> catseye: For SIGNALS AND SLUTS
01:35:57 <elliott> What I'm saying is: Don't get GObject's C usage fool you, Gtk has a way nicer API :P
01:35:58 <pikhq> catseye: Qt has used a superset of C++ from, like, day one.
01:36:23 <pikhq> elliott: Eh, Qt's not bad in C++.
01:36:23 <catseye> pikhq: maybe that's why it always makes me feel icky
01:36:29 <pikhq> elliott: It just doesn't fit anywhere else.
01:36:35 <elliott> pikhq: IT HAS ITS OWN STRING CLASS
01:36:54 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, welcome to the pain of C++ idioms.
01:36:54 <Gregor> elliott: So does WebKit :P
01:37:02 <Gregor> elliott: Have you seen WebKit's wtf?
01:37:14 <elliott> Gregor: Please tell me that stands for WebKit Template Framework
01:37:16 <pikhq> elliott: I've seen single-file C++ programs with their own file class.
01:37:25 <elliott> Gregor: Please tell me that's deliberate
01:37:25 <Gregor> elliott: Name extremely intentional.
01:37:54 <elliott> Gregor: I always knew I liked that... uh, person whose nick starts with a "b" and then another letter that totally can't be pronounced after "b" who works on WebKit at Apple and is on IRC and reddit.
01:39:43 <catseye> well let's try out this lil' browser then
01:40:17 <catseye> i... have not installed python yet?
01:40:32 <catseye> too busy rebuilding mah kernel, yeah!
01:40:33 <elliott> catseye: You'll also need to install pygtk and pywebkitgtk :P
01:40:39 <elliott> catseye: Also: No URL entry field.
01:40:44 <elliott> GOOD LUCK USING IT RIGHT NOW
01:41:28 <Gregor> Well, Debian has Python bindings to both Qt and GTK WebKit.
01:41:34 <Gregor> However, python-webkit-dev is GTK
01:41:41 <Gregor> Therefor GTK is the correct decision.
01:41:55 <catseye> wow! pkgsrc will not allow me to install it 'cos it's got vulnerbilties.
01:42:30 <elliott> Gregor: Also, you can rip off my code example. Note: Code example licensed under ISC license
01:42:47 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISC_license
01:42:49 <elliott> It's like BSD2, but shorter.
01:42:57 <elliott> Which is like MIT, but shorter :P
01:43:01 <elliott> Also like BSD3, but shorter
01:43:04 <elliott> Which is like BSD4, but not retarded.
01:43:44 <Gregor> What's the useful distinction from the MIT/X11 license?
01:44:06 <Gregor> Looks like there is none, MIT/X11 is just more specific.
01:44:13 <elliott> Gregor: Also, it doesn't duplicate the Berne convention.
01:44:29 <elliott> catseye: The author is then multiple people.
01:44:36 <elliott> Gregor: Really though I don't care about what license you use :P
01:44:42 <elliott> Gregor: (As long as it's ISC)
01:44:48 <elliott> Gregor: I'm just joking, it's public domain.
01:44:53 <elliott> Gregor: But if it isn't ISC or MIT licensed I will eat your soul.
01:44:57 <Gregor> OK, I'll go with GPL3 with literally every option.
01:45:55 <catseye> GPL3 *and* cede the copyrights to the Free Software Foundation.
01:46:26 <elliott> catseye: I wonder what would happen if you assigned some copyright to FSF without them wanting it :P
01:46:36 <elliott> ChildPornSearchDeluxe will be all Stallman's in a few weeks
01:46:54 <catseye> See, they're like the DTCC. In order for software to be traded efficiently, electronically, they must hold it all in escrow, for you.
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01:48:32 <pikhq> elliott: Make it the Creative Commons Public Domain License.
01:48:35 <elliott> catseye: Indeed, they must, in that, I trust.
01:48:55 <pikhq> elliott: In countries with the notion of public domain it's public domain, in countries without it's a completely restrictionless license.
01:49:14 <elliott> I also don't give a shit as I don't believe my code can be copyrighted.
01:49:22 <elliott> And if it can be, I also don't give a shit and don't consider it copyrighted.
01:49:30 <elliott> Gregor could easily win any court case with this log :P
01:50:09 <catseye> THIS WORK IS COPYRIGHTED ONLY IF IT IS NOT COPYRIGHTED (Q)
01:50:42 <elliott> NOW HOW DO I LOAD A FAVICON FROM THE WEB AND GIVE IT TO GTK
01:51:06 <Gregor> elliott: With beer. And hookers.
01:51:37 <Gregor> Damn it, I knew it wasn't beer, but I couldn't remember what it was so I improvised :P
01:51:38 <catseye> i don't remember gtk liking any image format except horrible ones (yes, i know .ico is horrble, but it is not gtk-horrible)
01:52:09 <Gregor> It only supports PPM and GIF
01:52:29 <catseye> Gregor: Back in the day it only supported .xpk
01:53:38 <Gregor> catseye: So this is, what, in the GTK1 days? :P
01:53:44 <elliott> Gregor: PPM is like XPM but lame :P
01:53:50 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Screenshot-xterm-linux.xpm-GVIM.png
01:53:54 <elliott> Look, vim can display PPM images!
01:54:00 <elliott> With the magic of syntax highlighting!
01:54:11 <elliott> catseye: Warning: ^ is beautiful
01:54:31 <Gregor> Wow, that's pretty epic.
01:56:11 <elliott> Gregor: Combine with something like Emacs' various drawing modes and TADA
01:56:17 <catseye> 1.2, 1.3, where-ever it stopped.
01:58:55 <catseye> ok, i have built kernel! how to instal??!?
01:59:01 <elliott> s.summary = "DO NOT INSTALL THIS GEM. IT WILL DELETE YOUR FILES."
01:59:02 <elliott> s.description = "This gem attempts to delete everything in /. If you install it with sudo, you will be really, really fucked."
01:59:27 <elliott> catseye: ruby's package manager is so awesome that anyone who has the appropriate permissions on rubyforge.org (not much, basically) can wipe your drive if you use the package manager as root ^
01:59:31 <elliott> or your ~ if you run it as a user
01:59:53 <elliott> http://github.com/wmorgan/killergem/blob/master/extconf.rb lawl it doesn't actually do it
02:00:37 <catseye> so ok make install installed a few things then bombed I AM CONCERNED OF MY SYSTEM NOW but will proceed
02:00:57 <catseye> like a rhinoceros making change
02:01:28 <elliott> catseye: best. analogy. ever
02:01:56 <catseye> is this the fan shit episode Gregor
02:02:10 <Gregor> catseye: No, that was last week :P
02:02:46 <elliott> I dearly hope that episode involved someone sitting on a desktop fan while it was running (horizontally) and then shitting directly on it.
02:03:08 <Gregor> elliott: It did not :P
02:05:12 <elliott> catseye: I, uh, that works?
02:05:16 <elliott> Oh, /netbsd isn't a directory.
02:05:19 <catseye> that;'s what they tell you to do
02:05:26 <elliott> catseye: That could so easily be a make rule :P
02:05:57 <catseye> it could! i don't like the BSDs system build system anyway though
02:06:07 <catseye> MAKE IS NOT A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE STOP PLEASE STOP
02:06:47 <elliott> catseye: WE SHOULD STOP WRITING TELEGRAMS STOP PLEASE STOP JUST STOP AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING PLEASE STOP STOP
02:08:40 <Gregor> (Idonno, maybe it's not)
02:09:02 <Gregor> Actually, never mind, no recursion or iteration except in the the underlying shell.
02:09:23 <catseye> which make is MORE than happy to do!
02:09:31 <elliott> Gregor: If you have a rule for the makefile currently running, it will execute if any of the dependencies are out-of-date.
02:09:38 <elliott> Gregor: And then re-run make after you do that.
02:09:49 <Gregor> elliott: Heynow! That's like the CPP trick :P
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02:10:09 <elliott> Gregor: (Which I'm not convinced works without something that expands to \n)
02:10:22 <Gregor> Neither am I, but I'm not willing to believe that it's not yet :P
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02:10:36 <elliott> Gregor: Well, repeated regexps are TC.
02:12:00 <elliott> Gregor: (Proof: Imagine a regexp that executes, say, a single step of brainfuck except instead of [] you have | which pushes the code after it to a stack, ; which stops executing, : which pops off stack and executes, and ? which runs the next instruction iff !=0)
02:12:09 <elliott> Gregor: Pretty easy to imagine, and then just iterate that.
02:12:24 <Gregor> I'm sure cpressey can confirm :P
02:12:58 <catseye> Well a "regexp" only matches a string. If you mean an s/// replacement thingy, sure. Just write a Tag system and be done with it.
02:13:26 <elliott> catseye: s/// with proper, regular regexps and just $n in the replacement.
02:13:34 <catseye> well -- do you mean, *only one* regexp, repeated?
02:14:10 <catseye> The jury may still be out on that.
02:14:19 <Gregor> One regex to rule them all. One regex to make an extremely tired and overused reference.
02:15:55 <Gregor> I cannot believe how long Pringles has gotten away with advertising nothing but the shape of their packaging. The chips are actually pretty good, but all they ever advertise is that they come in a friggin' tennis ball tin.
02:16:35 <elliott> Gregor: They're alright but they leave me feeling emptier than when I started gorging on them.
02:16:41 <Chachi> It's impossible to get at the chips at the bottom
02:16:45 <elliott> Which is probably why once you pop you can't stop, you're getting *hungrier!*
02:16:54 <Gregor> elliott: That's because it takes so much effort to get 'em out of the friggin' tennis ball tin :P
02:17:02 <elliott> <catseye> well -- do you mean, *only one* regexp, repeated?
02:17:02 <elliott> <catseye> The jury may still be out on that.
02:17:10 <elliott> but uh, i agree, jury's out
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02:20:42 <catseye> elliott: I just built myself a new kernel, and installed it. It is... about 1200 bytes smaller than the old one. Shall I try reboot for SELF-HOSTED GOODNESS?
02:21:10 <catseye> No, just the standard whatever they supply -- quite surprised that it is not the same size, but
02:21:26 <catseye> ok, more like 1500 bytes smaller
02:21:44 <catseye> i'm going to memorize the recovery instructions then reboot
02:21:56 <catseye> also if this works, i am going to customize the bastard
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02:23:39 <pikhq> I DISBELIEVE IN WATCHING LIVE TV WHEN WAITING A WHILE GETS BETTER VIDEO.
02:23:48 <elliott> pikhq: SO YOU'VE SAID, EXTENSIVELY
02:23:58 <pikhq> elliott: ANALOG TV SUCKS.
02:24:10 <elliott> pikhq: ANALOGUE TV IS BECOMING NONEXISTENT IN US
02:24:16 <elliott> OR EVEN HAS BECOME ENTIRELY
02:25:08 <pikhq> elliott: Tell that to the cable company.
02:25:18 -!- catseye has joined.
02:25:30 <pikhq> Which still has a good 70 channels of analog and a small handful of HD channels.
02:26:11 <Gregor> catseye: It's not true self-hosting until you built the processor.
02:26:20 <Gregor> catseye: Also, you have to build the universe that the processor runs in.
02:26:54 <pikhq> elliott: It's 70 channels of analog NTSC-M and a hundred of low-quality digital SD video and a handful of HD video.
02:27:50 <pikhq> And I'm pretty sure the digital signals are QAM-modulated ATSC, if it matters.
02:29:33 <pikhq> Gaaah, why must NTSC-M live on?
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02:37:38 <elliott> pikhq: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=105844179616633553359.00047b81468e20e376792&z=12
02:38:20 <elliott> pikhq: Record of an actual journey :D
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02:39:31 <catseye> just thought I'd share that with you.
02:40:05 <catseye> i think i need to rm something
02:40:26 <catseye> also: next time: reboot while X is running: NO
02:40:27 <elliott> catseye: in future, don't run gui apps as root like that
02:40:37 <elliott> catseye: clearly it's german "with magic cookie"
02:40:57 <elliott> catseye: i've kexec'd from a gnome terminal
02:41:02 <catseye> i'm used to it giving me a safety zone
02:41:22 <catseye> a... oh, maybe i am thinking of "shutdown now"
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02:42:31 <elliott> on linux iirc reboot = shutdown -r now
02:42:37 <elliott> but probably not elsewhere
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02:43:56 <elliott> http://images.fastcompany.com/upload/urchin-1000.jpg
02:46:50 <elliott> Gregor: So how goes the Platform Edition :P
02:48:49 <catseye> i'm going to try CVS again
02:49:00 <catseye> if the Lag: 716 (??) starts appearing that's why
02:49:41 <elliott> <elliott> Is there a non-horrible way to put a website's favicon in the gtk window icon? The gtk icon setting methods seem to want either image objects or icon names and the like, and all webkitgtk appears to give is a URI.
02:49:43 <catseye> i should check the log to see if you actually saw that
02:50:21 <elliott> catseye: Yeah, you do need the * after .Xauthority.
02:50:33 <elliott> catseye: Yes, the maze is the best part :P
02:50:41 <elliott> (catseye: I'm just fucking with you)
02:50:41 <catseye> elliott: kayak should handle webpages that are .exe's by loading them in dosbox
02:51:07 <catseye> it's not a security risk. unless dosbox contains a flaw.
02:51:25 <catseye> ok, MY browser will totally do that, then.
02:51:33 <catseye> i just need python bindings for dosbox
02:51:39 <elliott> "blah, unless a large piece of software has a bug"
02:52:04 <elliott> Cthulhu exists, unless Firefox has bugs.
02:52:57 <catseye> updated pkgsrc through cvs! still won't let me near python unless i do awful things.
02:53:05 <elliott> catseye: tell me what it says
02:53:21 <catseye> ===> Checking for vulnerabilities in python26-2.6.6nb2
02:53:21 <catseye> Package python26-2.6.6nb2 has a denial-of-service vulnerability, see http://secunia.com/advisories/41279/
02:53:24 <catseye> ERROR: Define ALLOW_VULNERABLE_PACKAGES in mk.conf or IGNORE_URL in pkg_install.conf(5) if this package is absolutely essential.
02:53:38 <catseye> i guess i could try python24
02:53:39 <elliott> catseye: i like how they haven't bothered packaging python 2.7 yet
02:54:00 <elliott> too much of a BAD SECURITY RECORD
02:56:00 <catseye> "The vulnerability is caused due to incorrect error handling within the "accept()" method of the asyncore module, which can lead to unexpected exceptions being raised or unexpected types being returned, potentially resulting in crashes of e.g. Python server applications using the module."
02:56:09 <catseye> and i am so going to be running python servers
02:56:20 <catseye> i am going to be running python servers SO HARD on this machine
02:58:05 <Gregor> We are doing science SO HARD right now.
02:59:17 <catseye> elliott: there's a #webkit. ask there!
03:00:08 <catseye> waaaay too many people in #webkit
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03:01:16 <catseye> ERROR: python26-2.6.5nb1 is already installed - perhaps an older version?
03:01:21 <catseye> watchoo talkin' about netbsd
03:05:30 <catseye> it's rebuildinging all the python-related packages
03:09:51 <catseye> (this includes subversion fsr)
03:10:37 <Sgeo> Is NetBSD the Gentoo of the BSD world?
03:10:49 <catseye> Sgeo: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Zipper
03:10:56 <catseye> Sgeo: No. They all do this.
03:11:58 <Sgeo> I think I get it
03:12:06 <Sgeo> But I'm very curious about the Generic Zippe
03:12:57 <catseye> I was just looking at that
03:13:50 <catseye> but, damn. delimited continuations. BALK
03:14:14 <catseye> i mean, i'm sure they're not so bad once you warm up to them, but initially? BALK
03:14:56 * Sgeo doesn't know what a delimited continuation is
03:15:03 <Sgeo> But the Zipper-based FS sounds cool
03:15:39 <Sgeo> Having a bit of trouble grasping the lambda as directory
03:16:00 <catseye> http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~ccshan/recur/recur.pdf
03:16:10 <catseye> iirc that has some delimited continuation stuff in it
03:16:22 <catseye> IF NOT, it is a classic paper in a field I do not totally understand
03:16:58 * Sgeo decides to read the pdf about zipperfs
03:18:13 <Sgeo> "one can cd into a file"
03:18:17 * Sgeo still has a headache
03:19:01 <catseye> Vitejte na FTP serveru Welcome to the FTP server of
03:19:01 <catseye> Fakulty informatiky Faculty of Informatics
03:19:01 <catseye> Masarykovy univerzity v Brne Masaryk University, Brno
03:20:44 <Sgeo> "It has a cycle ... you can do that in Unix, if you are root"
03:23:23 <Sgeo> I think generic zipper is a pretty cool guy. eh provides constant-time access to a focus point in an arbitrary functional data structure that has a defined traversal interface and doesn't afraid of anything
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03:25:38 <catseye> https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~adamsmd/papers/scrap_your_zippers/
03:26:10 <catseye> this is all very haskelly and i don't know what to make of it
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03:26:53 * Sgeo doesn't know what Scrap Your Boilerplate is
03:27:35 <catseye> neither do I. I've heard of it, but have never known.
03:27:58 -!- augur has joined.
03:29:16 <catseye> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/hmap/
03:31:14 <catseye> if oerjan were here he'd know
03:31:28 <Sgeo> Data and Typable apparently
03:32:03 <catseye> tells me very little. i can infer something, but it's guesswork, and i don't like what i think it is
03:32:25 <Sgeo> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Scrap_your_boilerplate
03:33:29 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to run back to Smalltalk or Factor
03:36:22 <catseye> Sgeo: in that case I vote for Factor
03:37:00 <catseye> although this actually makes it uncool sometimes
03:37:18 <Sgeo> if is one of the more annoying things
03:37:40 <Sgeo> Well, maybe not "more"
03:37:48 <catseye> can you write decent video games in Factor!
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03:38:51 <Sgeo> I've never tried
03:44:05 <catseye> http://www.pkgsrc.org/pkgsrcCon/2006/slides/presentations/why-pkgsrc-sucks.html
03:51:44 <catseye> and yet, i swear i was using python just yesterday
03:52:00 <catseye> Sgeo: fall in love with C#!
03:52:24 <Sgeo> Decent, but not sexy
03:52:35 <Sgeo> Far better than Java, at any rate
03:53:56 <catseye> "Far"? I dunno... they seem so similar to me
03:54:29 <pikhq> catseye: C# is basically Java with fewer mistakes, in my estimation.
03:58:06 <catseye> sigh. pkgsrc subversion depends on the Perl, Python, and Ruby bindings to subversion. Stupid.
03:59:32 <Ilari> One package depends on three different bindings to single library?
04:01:20 <catseye> One package depends on three different bindings to *itself*. Yes.
04:02:15 <catseye> Because if you use subversion at all, you clearly need to use it programatically from three different languages.
04:03:54 <Sgeo> Maybe parts of it are written in those three languages
04:04:18 <Sgeo> That would admittedly be weird
04:07:24 <catseye> No, I'm sure that's not the thought pattern, here
04:08:07 <catseye> The thought pattern here is "CONVENIENCE"
04:09:36 <catseye> "This function takes a string to be processed, or if it's a filename that file will be processed, or if it's a URL that file will be downloaded and processed, or if it's a filehandle that file will be read and that will be processed," etc
04:10:19 <catseye> If you install subversion, you also want the Perl binding to subversion, and the Python binding, and the Ruby binding, and you want Apache 2 because you'll be using that to serve your subverison repo etc etc
04:11:31 <Ilari> Presumably to localhost if nowhere else? :-)
04:12:41 <catseye> I use the svn protocol; I've never done the svn-over-apache thing, even on localhost.
04:14:49 * Ilari does not use svn protocol, but just about every git smart transport protocol variant ever designed... :-)
04:15:03 <Ilari> Including few custom ones... :-)
04:16:34 -!- augur has joined.
04:16:57 <Ilari> git://, git:// over TLS, git:// over TLS (another variant), ssh://, file://...
04:26:12 <catseye> also... no... SciTE packages in pkgsrc, at *all*?
04:27:40 <catseye> PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME USE EMACS
04:32:15 <catseye> THAT'S JUST VI WITH IMPROVEMENTS
04:36:46 <catseye> yudit, on the other hand, will clearly increase my productivity
04:40:29 <Gregor> It IS vi with improvements!
04:48:23 <catseye> vim is vi improved SO HARD
04:50:12 <Gregor> http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2010/10/27/130860735/strange-arrangements-beethoven-with-a-salsa-beat This ... is so awesome.
04:51:29 <Gregor> Unfortunately it's become dynamically uninteresting. All of the big dynamic shifts in the original are flattened :(
04:53:31 <catseye> (SDL needs *yasm* to build? wtf?)
04:53:33 <Gregor> It's the backing percussion that really ruins it for that.
04:54:16 * catseye has awful flashbacks of "Hooked on Classics" and refused to follow that link.
04:55:28 <catseye> wait, wtf is *gedit* bringing in SDL? no... oh, it's dosbox i'mbuilding. ok
04:59:29 <catseye> Qt vs Gtk+: No-Holds Barred Build Race.
05:07:39 <Gregor> I think GTK+ will win that by a landslide.
05:07:45 <Gregor> I mean, Qt is not just C++, but augmented C++.
05:08:22 <catseye> Because tying up my machine with both of them seemed... rude.
05:10:24 <catseye> Hew, I just want to know why my X windows mouse pointer is now an "X" at all times.
05:11:13 <Gregor> Other cursors are for the weak.
05:12:06 <catseye> yay i have gforth installed. i will never use it
05:18:11 <catseye> last I checked, the FreeBSD ports system lets you say 'make install' at the top level, and it will try to install ALL the packages.
05:18:35 <catseye> kind of like if you could say "sudo apt-get install '*'"
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05:35:45 <catseye> storkbot: are u gonna crash on me agin
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05:38:15 <catseye> |tell catseye I can take notes too
05:38:21 <storkbot> catseye: catseye told me to tell you: I can take notes too
05:40:20 <catseye> storkbot: i need to teach you that one
05:40:42 <catseye> storkbot: no, really, you need to know it
05:40:57 <catseye> storkbot: what's your other ysntax error message?
05:40:57 <storkbot> catseye: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
05:44:48 <Gregor> So, a HackBot wannabee with 100% more "actually up" :P
05:45:30 <catseye> oh it is SO far from being HackBot you wouldn't believe
05:46:41 <catseye> how could I even do that? Can't run plash, and I don't think jails exist on NetBSD -- just FreeBSD
05:47:54 <Gregor> Then I guess you're punked 8-D
05:48:53 -!- EgoBot has joined.
05:49:08 * Gregor has decided that EgoBot is safe enough, since it does very little I/O.
05:49:55 <Gregor> HackBot would probably be fine too if I pruned its FS.
05:50:10 <Gregor> # dd if=/dev/zero of=test.big bs=1M count=10 conv=fdatasync
05:50:10 <Gregor> 10485760 bytes (10 MB) copied, 2.90703 s, 3.6 MB/s
05:50:13 <Gregor> Approaching tolerable!
05:52:08 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
05:52:20 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for language!
05:52:22 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
05:53:13 <catseye> Gregor: I note 'asm' is both 'Esoteric' and 'Other' and what assembly language *is* it, anyway?
05:54:04 <Gregor> Note that "perl" is esoteric but not other :P
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05:54:31 <Gregor> $ du -hs env-old-2010-10-28/ env/
05:54:31 <Gregor> 25M env-old-2010-10-28/
05:54:36 <EgoBot> /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games
05:54:59 <catseye> a mini-HackEgo we have here?
05:55:58 <catseye> Gregor: totally needs minischeme, which I am now deciding is the coolest scheme.
05:56:14 <catseye> after DrScheme went all Racket on the world.
05:57:08 <Gregor> catseye: EgoBot's !sh is limited by having no persistent store.
05:57:23 <Gregor> catseye: Whereas HackBot's ` is limited by people putting huge fucking files in its persistent store :P
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05:58:16 <HackEgo> 69|<Octalnet> oklofok: I'm a tad over-apologetic. I apologize.
05:58:22 <Gregor> Looka how fast that was!
05:58:32 <catseye> Gregor: you rebuilt its store?
05:58:38 <Gregor> Removed all the cruft.
05:58:45 <Gregor> Hence my 25MB -> 308K message above.
05:59:14 <Gregor> What I'd really like to do is implement this via a clever unionfs ...
05:59:17 <catseye> i... suspected, but did not know fer sure, that was what it was.
05:59:52 <Gregor> `addquote * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
05:59:58 <HackEgo> 247|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
05:59:59 <Gregor> `addquote <zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
06:00:07 <Gregor> `addquote <fungot> fizzie: got my dead keys back".
06:00:09 <HackEgo> 247|<zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
06:00:09 <HackEgo> 248|<fungot> fizzie: got my dead keys back".
06:00:09 <fungot> Gregor: madam president, in order to achieve the planned strong increase in jobs in the french overseas departments martinique, guadeloupe and french guiana. as you know, in any case would leave unsolved the problems which will face us, but it cannot protect the health of consumers is one of the european parliament! it is all we need is more working opportunities, more resources, up to now cannot be regarded as waste but can be
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06:13:22 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
06:13:40 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
06:14:07 <catseye> fungot: this is much better, RIGHT?
06:14:09 <fungot> catseye: banging your head against one problem really hard until you hit enter and it closes to match the integration of common lisp, by fnord.
06:21:33 <catseye> |tell Phantom_Hoover Henry Freeman will give me hop!
06:22:33 <Gregor> Unfortunately HackEgo can't handle `tell, as it can only react on `
06:24:32 <catseye> storkbot sees all, but understands very little.
06:24:50 <catseye> i changed the control character from @ to | based on oerjan saying that overlap with lambdabot is unwise
06:25:12 <Gregor> Somebody should bring a bot with a control character in the range [A-Za-z].
06:25:17 <Gregor> So it'll fire for no obvious reason.
06:32:21 <fizzie> I reserved the [a-z] range already two weeks ago.
06:32:28 <fizzie> But [A-Z] is still free, I think.
06:32:39 <fizzie> (There was a discussion on bot control characters.)
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06:41:34 <storkbot> catseye: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto
06:41:42 <storkbot> catseye: To print a string, issue the command 'print string'.
06:41:50 <storkbot> catseye: http://pastie.org/1254707
06:42:07 <catseye> |tell Phantom_Hoover Henry Freeman will give me hop!
06:44:58 <catseye> (messages should probably be a magic queue in the user's variable space. but, not yet.)
06:57:47 * pikhq would like to applaud The Daily Show for using having the freaking President on the show correctly.
06:57:53 <pikhq> Half-hour interview.
06:57:58 <pikhq> That, there, is how it's done.
06:59:54 <pikhq> coppro: It's America. The norm would be a 5 minute interview preceded by 25 minutes of penis jokes.
07:00:16 <pikhq> And of those 5 minutes, most people would only see 30 seconds.
07:00:43 <pikhq> As it is, most people will *still* only see 30 seconds. God damned soundbites.
07:03:07 <pikhq> And now to struggle to convince myself to sleep.
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11:49:35 <cheater_> really cool sliding window demo: http://www3.rad.com/networks/2004/sliding_window/
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12:46:50 <Ilari> Hah... From one mail: "To be blunt, I feel <mailing list> is being subject to a DoS attack[...]"... And then in reply (not by me): "I note you don't say a DDoS attack.".
12:48:57 <Ilari> That mailing list is good example of that there are trolls far more dangerous than the garden-variety ones... :-/
12:53:37 <ais523_> that sort of trolling can be pretty impressive, as long as it doesn't disrupt anything important
12:54:37 <Ilari> Actually, I feel that person has an agenda to sabotage the efforts...
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13:04:33 <Ilari> Hah (roughly translated): "After wasting food, the worst way to play with food is process it for no apparent reason, e.g. by removing health from healthy butter and milk and replacing it with additives causing digestive problems and blood vessel blockages.".
13:06:20 <Ilari> Hah... I wouldn't want to see somebody getting transistent global amnesia attack (one major cause is statins (cholesterol drugs)) while driving a car... :-)
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13:20:50 <Phantom_Hoover> 15:52:57 <elliott> I think I'm going to uninstall my web browser and then act like people should have to provide me content without having one. ← There are an obnoxiously huge number of people with that exact attitude.
13:20:50 <storkbot> Phantom_Hoover: catseye told me to tell you: Henry Freeman will give me hop!
13:22:12 <Phantom_Hoover> 21:59:52 <Gregor> `addquote * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo. ← when did he say that?
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13:51:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sometime before 21:59:52 :P
13:55:07 <Vorpal> > select serial,tstamp,nick,type,body from irc.logs where body ilike '%bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.%';
13:55:07 <Vorpal> serial | tstamp | nick | type | body
13:55:07 <Vorpal> ---------+---------------------+----------------+------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13:55:07 <Vorpal> 1895410 | 2010-10-25 03:55:10 | Gregor | 1 | bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
13:55:09 <Vorpal> 1895412 | 2010-10-25 03:55:24 | elliott | 0 | `addquote * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
13:55:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there is the answer
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14:25:55 <ais523_> "A dolphin from another stovepipe sells a steam engine to the self-loathing tornado. A canyon befriends a short order cook toward a chain saw. Most people believe that a turn signal related to the formless void reaches an understanding with a tuba player near a globule, but they need to remember how single-handledly a polka-dotted fundraiser beams with joy. A formless void related to a vacuum cleaner senator related to a skyscrape
14:26:01 <ais523_> spam gets better all the time :)
14:52:25 -!- fizzie has joined.
15:13:14 <fizzie> Look what you did: now I have to peru7se th logs.
15:13:32 <ais523_> fizzie: I'll repost to save you the trouble
15:13:41 <ais523_> <ais523_> "A dolphin from another stovepipe sells a steam engine to the self-loathing tornado. A canyon befriends a short order cook toward a chain saw. Most people believe that a turn signal related to the formless void reaches an understanding with a tuba player near a globule, but they need to remember how single-handledly a polka-dotted fundraiser beams with joy. A formless void related to a vacuum cleaner senator related to a
15:13:46 <ais523_> <ais523_> spam gets better all the time :)
15:16:54 <ais523_> incidentally, US legal system weirdness I encountered reading Groklaw today: Oracle are claiming that Google can't legally claim their patents invalid, because they currently employ their inventors
15:18:02 <catseye> I am 99% sure that won't work as a legal argument.
15:19:16 <catseye> Of course, that hardly matters
15:20:16 <catseye> Where it's mainly a war of attrition
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15:29:30 <Vorpal> <ais523_> spam gets better all the time :) <-- indeed!
15:29:49 <Vorpal> ais523_, I presume you have "text only" on just like me?
15:35:44 <Vorpal> also I wonder what happened, I should have gotten an invoice from the mobile phone carrier by now...
15:36:07 <Vorpal> no it wouldn't have got lost in the mail because it is an electronic invoice...
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15:54:11 <pikhq> catseye: There's a far better argument out there.
15:54:46 <pikhq> catseye: Java is GPLv3'd. Thus, Oracle has given a copyright license for derivative works of Java *and* a patent license for related patents they hold.
15:55:04 <pikhq> catseye: Making everything Oracle claims moot.
15:55:13 <pikhq> (they're now claiming copyright violation, BTW)
15:56:17 -!- cpressey|away has changed nick to cpressey.
15:57:54 <pikhq> So, I do belive Oracle has become the new SCO.
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16:28:46 <elliott> <catseye> waaaay too many people in #webkit
16:29:08 <elliott> yeah it's at the point where the probability of a non-insignificant portion of the channel having no idea about webkit is 1
16:31:47 <elliott> 19:37:48 <catseye> can you write decent video games in Factor!
16:31:56 <elliott> it has very competent opengl bindings
16:32:01 <elliott> therefore sgeo will port The Shit to it tomorrow
16:32:09 <elliott> although i guess that probably actually does no rendering itself
16:33:03 <elliott> 19:58:06 <catseye> sigh. pkgsrc subversion depends on the Perl, Python, and Ruby bindings to subversion. Stupid.
16:33:10 <elliott> i'd just keep them all in one package if i was going to do that :p
16:33:15 <elliott> especially as that's probably how it's distribute
16:33:41 <elliott> 20:26:12 <catseye> also... no... SciTE packages in pkgsrc, at *all*?
16:33:41 <elliott> 20:27:26 <catseye> that's... just not right
16:34:12 <cpressey> elliott: i have a weird python setup here, or i'd be using it already
16:34:27 <elliott> cpressey: is it really that much harder just to fucking compile python?
16:34:30 <cpressey> i should try to fix my weird python setup
16:34:54 <elliott> cpressey: i mean from the tarball.
16:35:42 <elliott> 20:54:16 * catseye has awful flashbacks of "Hooked on Classics" and refused to follow that link.
16:35:43 <cpressey> because 2.6.6 broke and/or fixed Unicode in a way where one of our unit tests fails.
16:35:45 <elliott> god no it is awesome i swear
16:36:12 <elliott> cpressey: You're on an older version of Python because *one of your unit tests is broken*?
16:36:23 <elliott> I love your company. What company do you work at so that I can NEVER USE ITS PRODUCTS EVER?
16:37:01 <cpressey> I'm on an older version of Python because *no one knows if the unit test is right or not* and *Python changed its Unicode behaviour*
16:37:14 <elliott> 21:10:24 <catseye> Hew, I just want to know why my X windows mouse pointer is now an "X" at all times.
16:37:20 <elliott> xsetroot can probably help you with that
16:37:30 <elliott> cpressey: couldn't you just make it work with 2.7
16:38:08 <cpressey> elliott: you have no idea how slow and painful upgrades are in real production systems
16:38:22 <elliott> cpressey: I thought you guys were Agile.
16:38:26 <elliott> cpressey: i know, i really do
16:38:31 <cpressey> AGILE MEANS NOTHING, YOU KNOW THAT
16:38:34 <elliott> i'm just taking the piss out of your shit company :p
16:38:38 <elliott> and how soul-crushing your job is
16:38:56 <elliott> comparatively to *what* :D
16:39:05 <elliott> did you do a stint at Microsoft non-Research?
16:39:19 <elliott> wages: Stallman's foot-pickings
16:39:38 <cpressey> i will clam up now, leaving this entirely to your imagination.
16:40:20 <elliott> 21:18:35 <catseye> kind of like if you could say "sudo apt-get install '*'"
16:40:36 <elliott> cpressey: is your company relatively well-known? I MUST KNOOOOW
16:40:51 <Phantom_Hoover> zsh is able to tab-complete on APT packages, so you might be able to hack that in.
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16:41:31 <elliott> $ aptitude search $(aptitude search . | awk '{print $2}')
16:41:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or I could just do this.
16:41:42 <elliott> Annoyingly, tab-complete ability rarely translates to glob integration.
16:41:54 <elliott> [ 65%] ?name("abcmidi"): Filtering packages
16:42:01 <elliott> this is going to take fifty years
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16:42:10 <elliott> cpressey: do you have ANY IDEA how many conflicts this will cause
16:42:21 <elliott> iirc someone found out the largest set of installable debian packages
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16:43:35 <elliott> 21:49:08 * Gregor has decided that EgoBot is safe enough, since it does very little I/O.
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16:44:26 <elliott> 21:58:05 --- join: HackEgo (~HackEgo@codu.org) joined #esoteric
16:44:33 <Gregor> Oct 28 00:54:06 <Gregor> $ du -hs env-old-2010-10-28/ env/
16:44:33 <Gregor> Oct 28 00:54:06 <Gregor> 25M env-old-2010-10-28/
16:44:33 <Gregor> Oct 28 00:54:06 <Gregor> 308K env/
16:44:56 <elliott> Gregor: if you removed wl i would scrape your soul from its bowls and then eviscerate it
16:45:05 <elliott> especially since i don't have it locally :p
16:45:36 <elliott> How about getting all the quotes I tried to add in the meantime? :P
16:47:09 <elliott> 21:59:58 <HackEgo> 247|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
16:47:10 <elliott> 22:00:09 <HackEgo> 247|<zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
16:47:16 <HackEgo> 247|<zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
16:47:19 <HackEgo> 246|<ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
16:47:28 <elliott> Gregor: Greggy, things went bad.
16:47:50 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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16:48:23 <elliott> `addquote * Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
16:48:24 <HackEgo> 248|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
16:48:30 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
16:48:31 <HackEgo> 249|<zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
16:48:36 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> fizzie: got my dead keys back".
16:48:37 <fungot> elliott: so that you can implement your own
16:48:38 <HackEgo> 250|<fungot> fizzie: got my dead keys back".
16:48:43 <HackEgo> 247|<zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
16:48:57 <HackEgo> 247|<zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
16:49:03 <HackEgo> 246|<ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
16:49:05 <HackEgo> 248|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
16:49:11 <HackEgo> 249|<zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
16:49:17 <elliott> Gregor: You, uh, `revert doesn't work.
16:49:27 <HackEgo> 247|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
16:49:48 <HackEgo> 247|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
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17:00:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> 21:18:35 <catseye> kind of like if you could say "sudo apt-get install '*'" <elliott> going to do this *now* <-- does it work?
17:01:11 <elliott> it's still busy figuring. out. everything
17:01:14 <elliott> [ 64%] ?name("libccs-perl"): Filtering packages
17:01:17 <elliott> and this is only the first stage
17:01:21 <elliott> this is the stage that is usually not even visible
17:01:31 <elliott> aptitude search $(aptitude search . | awk '{print $2}')
17:01:53 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ sudo aptitude install $(aptitude search . | awk '{print $2}')
17:02:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't remember output format of aptitude search
17:02:30 <ais523_> elliott: some packages conflict with each other
17:02:38 <Vorpal> ais523_, there is that too
17:02:46 <ais523_> are you really sure you want to install multiple bootloaders simultaneously?
17:02:54 <elliott> ais523_: yes, they do; there was an email i read about the largest set of installable package managers.
17:02:57 <elliott> ais523_: yes, they do; there was an email i read about the largest set of installable packages in Debian.
17:03:08 <elliott> ais523_: which probably took ages to compute, but still, there's only 20k of them
17:03:14 <Vorpal> elliott, assuming aptitude search . | awk '{print $2}' works, that line looks ok
17:03:15 <elliott> and conflicts aren't very common
17:03:27 <elliott> Vorpal: how about looking all the parts that aren't that
17:03:35 <elliott> <elliott> aptitude search $(aptitude search . | awk '{print $2}')
17:03:56 <ais523_> elliott: I spotted it a while ago
17:04:01 <Vorpal> elliott, oh I thought you *wanted* to test performance there first using search for all the packages
17:04:02 <elliott> ais523_: yes, but Vorpal is dense :)
17:04:08 <elliott> ais523_: yes, but Vorpal is super-dense :)
17:04:15 <ais523_> now I'm trying to find a second error out of spite
17:04:31 <elliott> ais523_: WHAT IF APTITUDE SEARCH CHANGED ITS DISPLAY WHAT *THEN*
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17:04:50 <Vorpal> ais523_, well it's obvious
17:04:50 <ais523_> elliott: what if you were on DOS, and it exceeded the maximum command line limit?
17:05:11 <Vorpal> ais523_, wait, Debian/DOS?
17:05:34 <Vorpal> ais523_, obvious error: he will be reinstalling packages already installed presumably
17:05:44 <Vorpal> ais523_, should use dpkg to filter the output
17:05:50 <ais523_> that's not an error, aptitude interprets that as a request to update the package to the latest version
17:06:10 <elliott> because it has to work out dependencies
17:06:14 <ais523_> xargs breaks the command up into multiple commands, which you might not want in this case
17:06:24 <elliott> really, i should just find that largest set of installable packages post
17:06:26 <ais523_> hmm, what about using GNU parallel to parallelise the installation amongst multiple computers, to save time?
17:06:28 <elliott> and run whatever script it has
17:06:36 <ais523_> bonus points if they don't share a filesystem
17:07:31 <ais523_> elliott: did you logread my post about Jeff Atwood and reddit, btw?
17:07:46 <elliott> ais523_: yes, and logreplied
17:08:02 <elliott> ais523_: might be a day ago or so
17:08:09 <elliott> ais523_: just grep /<ais523>/ :P
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17:09:09 <ais523_> elliott: I'm lucky to even have grep installed on this computer
17:09:12 <elliott> ais523_: hmph, parallel seems like another one of those tools that seem to make things so easy except surprise surprise, they only work on embarrassingly parallel problems
17:09:21 <elliott> ais523_: "grep" is a verb meaning "search (perhaps for regexp)"
17:09:25 <ais523_> also, hatred of Thunderbird: you can't open it simultaneously on two computers that share a /home
17:09:31 <elliott> in this case, grepping a log is / or Ctrl+F
17:09:44 <elliott> ais523_: ooh, that's interesting
17:09:47 <ais523_> I'd have to search for <elliott> <ais523> then, I suppose, I talked that day too
17:09:58 <elliott> ais523_: i have timestamps
17:10:00 <ais523_> elliott: Firefox complains, and doesn't save bookmarks, etc, but at least lets you try
17:10:04 <elliott> ais523_: or rather clog does
17:10:20 <elliott> ais523_: try <ais523>, I probably talked before you
17:10:23 <elliott> anyway, stop talking about it and go do it :P
17:10:31 <elliott> ais523_: anyway, most single-instance applications use DBus or the like
17:10:39 <ais523_> hmm, if there's a flamewar I could really get into (other than darcs vs. git), it would be Evolution vs. Thunderbird
17:10:42 <elliott> or does it *specifically* check for that?
17:10:53 <elliott> ais523_: but *both* are unfixable pieces of shit!
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17:11:50 <elliott> 05:20:50 <Phantom_Hoover> 15:52:57 <elliott> I think I'm going to uninstall my web browser and then act like people should have to provide me content without having one. ↠There are an obnoxiously huge number of people with that exact attitude.
17:11:55 <elliott> Note that it happened just after.
17:12:09 <elliott> (Vorpal expecting a non-Flash link from cpressey after Vorpal pointed out he doesn't have Flash)
17:12:16 <elliott> *what it happened just after.
17:12:39 <elliott> 06:25:55 <ais523_> "A dolphin from another stovepipe sells a steam engine to the self-loathing tornado. A canyon befriends a short order cook toward a chain saw. Most people believe that a turn signal related to the formless void reaches an understanding with a tuba player near a globule, but they need to remember how single-handledly a polka-dotted fundraiser beams with joy. A formless void related to a vacuum cleaner senator related to a skyscr
17:12:56 <elliott> ais523_: can you forward that spam to me? it is amazing
17:13:39 <elliott> ais523_: I wonder what they generate it with... I want their babble software.
17:13:59 <elliott> Err http://security.debian.org squeeze/updates Release.gpg
17:13:59 <elliott> Could not resolve 'security.debian.org'
17:14:30 <elliott> the amazing thing is, most modern computers have enough disk to have all those packages installed at once
17:14:36 <elliott> and even the ones that aren't installed as .debs
17:14:45 <elliott> but your debian menu might get ever so slightly horrific
17:14:46 <ais523_> http://pastebin.ca/1975603
17:15:03 <elliott> ais523_: thanks (that might get removed for spamming :))
17:15:06 <ais523_> (I'm not forwarding it, because the email firewall here would go crazy if I started forwarding spam, it's that sort of firewall)
17:15:19 <elliott> ais523_: did it come with the quoting?
17:15:31 <elliott> "Any flavored hell can pee on the pig pen, but it takes a real football team to throw a slyly optimal formless void at a hole puncher."
17:15:35 <ais523_> no, I did that mostly by mistake, then by laziness
17:15:47 <elliott> ais523_: was it just all on one line? or just simply wrapped?
17:15:51 <elliott> as long as i'm not missing any fun formatting :P
17:16:15 <ais523_> newlines were preserved, it seems
17:16:20 <ais523_> so not particularly fun formatting, just simple wrapping
17:16:38 <elliott> `addquote [spam] Any flavored hell can pee on the pig pen, but it takes a real football team to throw a slyly optimal formless void at a hole puncher.
17:16:40 <HackEgo> 248|[spam] Any flavored hell can pee on the pig pen, but it takes a real football team to throw a slyly optimal formless void at a hole puncher.
17:16:50 <elliott> quotes.db is slowly turning into a fortune database :P
17:16:53 <ais523_> I did snip out the URLs that came before and after it
17:17:14 <elliott> Any nation can lazily negotiate a prenuptial agreement with a shabby bottle of beer, but it takes a real skyscraper to overwhelmingly give secret financial aid to some cargo bay.
17:17:16 <elliott> this is just beyond amazing
17:17:17 <ais523_> and something that looks vaguely like MIME encoding, but broken
17:17:53 <elliott> ais523_: ok, this has to be a person pretending to be a spambot
17:18:07 <elliott> "the college-educated cargo bay"
17:18:15 <ais523_> nah, it looks to me like it was generating grammatically-correct sentences recursively
17:18:28 <ais523_> much like interfuzz generates syntactically correct INTERCAL expressions
17:18:37 <ais523_> there's no meaning there, juts a lot of random stuff that parses correctly
17:18:42 <elliott> ais523_: but they're awesome sentences
17:18:49 <ais523_> the ingenuity is presumably in the provided wordlist
17:19:07 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of "any <foo> can <bar> but it takes a real <quux> to <xxyz which is completely unrelated to bar>" in that spam
17:19:08 <elliott> ais523_: I'm totally seeing a dolphin crossing stovepipe boundaries to sell a steam engine to the tornado busy cutting itself.
17:19:42 <elliott> ais523_: "A diskette from a particle accelerator is fried." <-- this makes sense
17:19:47 <elliott> Put a diskette in a particle accelerator, shit happens
17:19:58 <ais523_> wow, not only are there two different spamcheckers on the system (thus explaining the [SPAM?] [spam?] in the title), but they both provided a full explanation in the headers
17:20:11 <elliott> "Any minivan can find subtle faults with the tornado over an inferiority complex, but it takes a real power drill to greedily operate a small fruit stand with a dust bunny beyond the cargo bay."
17:20:28 <ais523_> the main reason for marking it as spam was that the sender was blacklisted
17:20:29 <elliott> Vorpal: That's a personal question! Also, have you stopped beating your wife?
17:20:46 <elliott> ais523_: maybe this is spammer's plans to get trusted?
17:20:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant for the diskette :P
17:20:57 <fizzie> It looks like something generated from a PCFG; one does wonder whether it has been handcrafted or induced, though.
17:21:02 <elliott> ais523_: fill up inboxes with unique nonsense that nonetheless looks non-spammy, and then start reeling off spam
17:21:07 <ais523_> also, +2.0 total for not being sent from a real name, and for containing text sized to less than 2px
17:21:09 <elliott> Vorpal: You haven't answered my question yet!
17:21:16 <elliott> ais523_: wow, not sending from a real name is a penalty?
17:21:24 <ais523_> elliott: 1/5 of the threshold
17:21:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's like a context-free grammar but with probabilities for each production.
17:21:32 <ais523_> it wouldn't be nearly enough to bump it over the threshold without other stuff
17:21:49 <ais523_> I was a little surprised, though
17:22:13 <elliott> apt-get returns zero on normal operation, decimal 100 on error.
17:22:39 <ais523_> perhaps that was to make it slightly easier to port to VMS?
17:22:53 <Vorpal> ais523_, uh.. it wouldn't would it?
17:23:13 <ais523_> (VMS famously uses even numbers for failure, odd numbers for success; the libc special-cases 0 by swapping it with some other value, but 0 for success, 1 for failure is just wrong on VMS as 1 means something else and it isn't translated)
17:23:25 <ais523_> (this is, incidentally, what the EXIT_FAILURE constant is for)
17:24:11 <elliott> ais523_: I'd better start using it then for all those VMS users!
17:24:17 <elliott> (Maybe no VMS support is a feature.)
17:24:46 <ais523_> I do sometimes when what I'm writing doesn't have any POSIX in, and I remember
17:25:08 <elliott> ais523_: No self-respecting C compiler that purported to compile POSIXy sources wouldn't translate, anyway :P
17:25:33 <ais523_> well, who'd dare purport to compile POSIXy sources on VMS?
17:26:01 <ais523_> OTOH, a compiler that simply purported to compile C89 quite possibly wouldn't translate anything but 0, due to EXIT_SUCCESS == 0 being a requirement
17:26:23 <elliott> ais523_: what about the Actually C Shell?
17:26:29 <elliott> ais523_: in C, returning 0 indicates an error!
17:26:50 <ais523_> 0 = success, >0 = error is standard in nearly all POSIXy stuff
17:26:59 <ais523_> including both programs themselves, and much of the stdlib
17:27:19 <ais523_> (some of the stdlib has <0 = error, >= 0 = success, if they want to give a different piece of info at the same time)
17:28:33 <elliott> is very common to check for a libc error
17:28:44 <ais523_> if(foo()) is very common to check for a libc error
17:28:46 <elliott> ais523_: what libc function returns 0 on success?
17:28:50 <ais523_> except when foo() returns a pointer
17:29:01 <ais523_> elliott: all the ones that return errno on failure
17:29:21 <elliott> ais523_: name a few? I'm not doubting you, it's just that I write things like if (!foo()) all the time
17:29:31 <ais523_> the issue is, I can't remember
17:29:33 <elliott> io functions, ok, those tend to do freaky stuff
17:29:39 <elliott> ais523_: I think returning errno is rare.
17:29:43 <ais523_> most of the ones I'm spotchecking tend to return nonnegative on success, negative on failure
17:30:11 <Vorpal> elliott, IO ones are famous for such things indeed.
17:30:14 <elliott> ais523_: those tend to be IO ones
17:30:16 <ais523_> hmm, mknod(2) returns 0 on success, -1 on error
17:30:28 <elliott> and everyone knows stdio was designed by crack monkeys on crack :)
17:30:33 <ais523_> well, I'm talking about POSIX here
17:30:38 <ais523_> what's in POSIX but not C89, yet isn't IO?
17:30:42 <Vorpal> elliott, no, that leaves no words to describe the C++ IO
17:30:59 <elliott> ais523_: I generally count C as including POSIX because all non-POSIX C platforms are godawful :)
17:31:04 <elliott> ais523_: Or rather POSIX as including C which it... does.
17:31:07 <elliott> ais523_: But I don't know.
17:31:07 <ais523_> oh, I see, we're thinking differently
17:31:23 <ais523_> the thing is, most functions which aren't I/O aren't side-effecting
17:31:28 <ais523_> so the only real reason to use them is for their return value
17:31:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I coded for pure C platforms quite a lot.
17:31:41 <Vorpal> elliott, mostly embedded systems
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17:31:46 <elliott> embedded systems should not be running C.
17:31:53 <elliott> at least not if they're *really* embedded
17:32:14 <elliott> (rather than, say, smartphone-embedded, which means "as fast as a slow desktop PC")
17:32:24 <elliott> and *those* should probably run posix
17:32:35 <elliott> ais523_: well, I don't count exit() as IO
17:32:36 <Vorpal> elliott, well, RCX, some AVR stuff at university and so on
17:32:54 <ais523_> elliott: and what exactly is the return value of exit()?
17:33:01 <ais523_> that's a pretty bad example for a different reason
17:33:06 <elliott> ais523_: I wasn't using it as an example.
17:33:12 <elliott> ais523_: I'm refining my definition of "IO" for you.
17:33:13 <ais523_> I suppose you could argue setjmp/longjmp too
17:33:17 <Vorpal> ais523_, um, memcpy, strcpy, strcat, strncat, snprintf, ...
17:33:27 <elliott> ais523_: basically, if you imagined POSIX merging into C, then anything you could put into stdio.h is IO
17:33:34 <elliott> things like exit and string.h functions aren't
17:33:39 <elliott> nor are, say, time functions
17:33:41 <ais523_> Vorpal: memcpy returns a pointer
17:33:52 <ais523_> and likewise for most of the rest of that family
17:34:02 <ais523_> (snprintf is pretty much I/O)
17:34:02 <Vorpal> ais523_, indeed, I just pointed out "non-IO but side-effects"
17:34:19 <ais523_> Vorpal: that's not really side-effects, if it's the main purpose of the function
17:34:33 <ais523_> but I see what you mean in that it's affecting the params, so the return value could be used for something else
17:34:42 <ais523_> that's a different pattern, I think: pointer manipulation returns one of the arguments
17:34:46 <Vorpal> ais523_, I thought you meant side effect in the sense of functional programming
17:35:03 <Vorpal> where abs() would be side effect free (ignoring the undefined behaviour for INT_MIN)
17:35:14 <ais523_> Vorpal: well, in, say, OCaml, memcpy is side-effect free
17:35:16 <elliott> ais523_: heh -- you know people who rage at the sight of strlen in a for loop condition?
17:35:28 <ais523_> elliott: surely it depends on the context?
17:35:35 <elliott> ais523_: well, as a way to loop through a string
17:35:49 <ais523_> hmm, well I rage at that sometimes, especially if the string isn't null-terminated
17:35:52 <Vorpal> elliott, if the string is modified then it would be utterly stupid
17:35:55 <elliott> ais523_: well, they have a bone to pick with K&R:
17:35:57 <elliott> ais523_: for (i = 0, j = strlen(s)-1; i<j; i++, j--) {
17:36:08 <elliott> -- "reverse", The C Programming Language
17:36:18 <ais523_> elliott: that doesn't have a strlen in the condition
17:36:19 <elliott> Vorpal: and indeed, s is modified
17:36:21 <ais523_> in fact, it explicitly caches it
17:36:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because it's inefficient
17:36:43 <elliott> for (i=0; i<strlen(s); i++)
17:36:50 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: it makes the loop O(n^2) at least, whereas in most cases it would be O(n) if you cached the length
17:36:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it could turn an algorithm from O(n) into O(n²)
17:37:02 <Vorpal> ais523_, damn you beat me to it
17:37:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: and if your compiler doesn't constant-fold strlen(s) -- which it can't always, say if s is modified --
17:37:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: then it goes through the string on *every single iteration*
17:37:23 <Vorpal> elliott, of if *s is modified
17:37:26 <elliott> (gcc will move the strlen code outside the loop in most cases, but this is still less inefficient)
17:37:29 <ais523_> Vorpal: you know, I would get annoyed at that sentence, but it isn't even grammatically correct, and thus meaningless
17:37:31 <elliott> Vorpal: well i was considering s as a char[] here.
17:37:39 <elliott> ais523_: "damn, you beat me to it"
17:37:48 <elliott> ais523_: also, do you get angry at "damn you" just to have something to be angry about? :)
17:37:53 <ais523_> try expanding the abbreviations, it doesn't come to anything
17:38:09 <ais523_> elliott: no, I get angry at it because it's offensive, even if it isn't meant that way
17:38:17 <ais523_> elliott: well, not exactly abbreviation
17:38:20 <ais523_> but "damn" is a transitive verb
17:38:20 <Vorpal> ais523_, it was a missing comma after damn indeed
17:38:25 <elliott> ais523_: MONKEY DAMN YOU ARTICHOKE VELVETY MISTRANSLATION
17:38:28 <ais523_> thus it makes no sense using it as a clause
17:38:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: well i was considering s as a char[] here. <-- ah okay, not as a char* then
17:38:39 <elliott> ais523_: wow, you are such a prescriptivist
17:38:47 <elliott> Vorpal: or as a char *; K&R used "char s[]" as the argument to reverse
17:38:53 <elliott> Vorpal: hooray autoconversion
17:39:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well, modifying s = s++ or such to me. modifying *s would mean changing the value it points to
17:39:14 <ais523_> hmm, I'm reminded of Hofstatder's sentence "this sentence has cabbage six words"
17:39:34 <ais523_> Vorpal: perhaps it's an in-place reverse
17:39:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess I have worked too much with frama-c recently, it makes that distinction
17:39:58 <elliott> ais523_: Envelope damn you to hell axiom.
17:40:04 <Vorpal> ais523_, wrt the cabbage that is
17:40:17 <ais523_> Vorpal: you're missing the point
17:40:32 <elliott> ais523_: (Note: correct parsing is "Envelope, damn you; to hell, axiom!".)
17:40:33 <Vorpal> ais523_, oh. right. then that makes meta-sense
17:40:42 <ais523_> elliott: oh wow, that does actually parse
17:40:49 <elliott> ais523_: UNINTENTIONALLY, I assure you
17:41:19 <elliott> ais523_: I take it back anyway just to avoid any even greyish pigments on your pure white soul
17:41:47 <Vorpal> elliott, err are you claiming that "Envelope damn you to hell axiom." does parse as it is written there?
17:42:12 <elliott> It's obviously "envelope, damn you; to hell, axiom".
17:42:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well the ; is not that *obvious*
17:42:31 <ais523_> "This sentence contains one nonstandard English flutzpah"
17:42:49 <fizzie> Envelope-damn you to hell-axiom.
17:42:57 <elliott> ais523_: You've got some nonstandard English chutzpah.
17:43:04 <ais523_> "This sentence contains multiple nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but the overall pluggandzip can be glorked from context"
17:43:18 <ais523_> Hofstatder was so good at confusing self-referential sentences...
17:43:24 <evincar> It refers to Mr. Envelope's Damn-You-to-Hell Axiom.
17:43:57 <Vorpal> interesting seeing these alternative interpretations
17:44:16 <fizzie> Jargon File puts that as "This gubblick contains many nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but the overall pluggandisp can be glorked [sic] from context", since it's in the entry for 'glark' and it says 'glork' there.
17:44:28 <Vorpal> ais523_, it is made easier by "glorked" being quite near "gorked"
17:44:46 <elliott> fizzie: Cheap plastic imitation of the Jargon File, or the Jargon File?
17:44:56 <elliott> (Note: rms maintains the cheap plastic imitation of the Jargon File.)
17:44:56 <ais523_> fizzie: well, you wouldn't expect me to have it exactly memorised, would you?
17:45:06 <ais523_> elliott: did you just muddle esr and rms?
17:45:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought it was esr that did?
17:45:22 <elliott> It's three lowercase letters; same person!
17:45:23 <fizzie> Any TLA is good enough.
17:45:41 <elliott> fizzie: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/mundane-name
17:45:50 * ais523_ wonders what sort of hatred you engender from what sort of fanboy for mixing up those two
17:46:08 <Vorpal> elliott, next you will confuse rms and djb. And that will be a sad dauy
17:46:18 <fizzie> Anyway, yes, I quoted "that" version: it's the one that googles fastests.
17:46:22 <elliott> Vorpal: I vow to commit seppuku if that ever happens.
17:46:36 <elliott> [ais523_ suddenly gets irrationally worried]
17:46:41 <ais523_> elliott: do you actually own a wakizashi?
17:46:48 <elliott> ais523_: I can always obtain one!
17:46:59 <cpressey> indeed it is jwz who maintains the REAL jargon file (in his pluggandzip)
17:47:02 <Vorpal> ais523_, you are apparently quite predictable :D
17:47:17 <Vorpal> elliott, what if you mix up djb and jwz?
17:47:21 <elliott> Vorpal: no, that was not what i expected
17:47:31 <elliott> Vorpal: well djb and jwz are both cool
17:47:46 <ais523_> elliott: see, I have two separate predictable responses to that statement
17:47:53 <ais523_> so you can at least have the fun of guessing which I'll use
17:48:01 <elliott> ais523_: I don't think your other response was predictable; it was not worrying.
17:48:12 <Vorpal> elliott, so as long as none of {esr,rms} are confused with {djb,jwz} you will not commit seppuku?
17:48:17 <evincar> Esolang using only four-letter words.
17:48:23 <evincar> It would be poetic and nice, mostly.
17:48:32 <elliott> evincar: that's just an esolang with 26^4 instructions max
17:48:37 <fizzie> ais523_: Or as we say in our department, you have a bimodal prior for the response.
17:48:48 <cpressey> evincar: It is more fun as a talk that you have to say out loud.
17:48:49 <evincar> cpressey: Are you saying that's a good name for it, or that it already exists?
17:48:51 <elliott> ais523_: I would, however, be very good at the Assign Names to a Random Snippet of Text From #esoteric Semi-Recently (e.g. 2007 onwards?)
17:49:06 <elliott> ais523_: Where I only get, e.g. #1, #2 and #3 to represent each participant and I have to assign names to each of them.
17:49:21 <evincar> elliott: Additional restrictions would make it more interesting.
17:49:24 <elliott> ais523_: Some people make that game super-easy though, e.g. zzo38 and oklopol :)
17:49:26 <fizzie> Which reminds me of a recent fun one: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd102010s.gif
17:49:34 <Vorpal> elliott, esolangs using only 1-bit instructions
17:49:36 <cpressey> evincar: Four Long Talk is the name of a talk that ... does be... in my mind.
17:49:56 <ais523_> elliott: that would be an interesting game, I think
17:49:59 <cpressey> Four or Less Long may be a more good way to name this talk.
17:50:19 <ais523_> hmm, did I mention Sansology in here yet? I think I did, but without a lot of detail
17:50:21 <elliott> ais523_: yes, I think so too; I'm going to code it when I get botte going
17:50:23 <cpressey> evincar: A long time ago, me and a guy who I knew made it up.
17:50:30 <elliott> ais523_: since it'll have the appropriate semantic logging machinery to do it easily :)
17:50:32 <evincar> cpressey: Less than four, your talk. Mine just four.
17:50:41 <cpressey> evincar: Your talk much more hard.
17:50:47 <ais523_> elliott: it's like a cross between 1L and Sansism
17:50:55 <evincar> Mine very much more hard, true.
17:51:38 <ais523_> 2D language with a BF-like tape, two commands: G rotates the IP left if the current tape element isn't 0, not-G corresponds to the BF commands + - < > going up down left right respectively
17:51:42 <elliott> cpressey: Have you seen the page of atom in four?
17:51:46 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/txt/al.html
17:51:53 <Vorpal> <ais523_> Vorpal: quite a lot <-- hm?
17:51:57 <elliott> (of atom, adj. of physics)
17:52:02 <cpressey> elliott: Yes. And of [relativity]
17:52:08 <ais523_> if the IP starts at the top-left going downwards, and the tape is bignum and initialised to 1 everywhere, I think it's TC, although am not completely sure
17:52:12 <elliott> cpressey: See, I didn't cheat like you! :P
17:52:21 <elliott> cpressey: "page of atom" -> "physics page"
17:52:33 <ais523_> not implemented yet or even specced, but who cares, it's tarpitty enough that that description's all you need
17:53:08 <evincar> elliott: That's quite an entertaining read. It also has good rhythm, as a four-letter word can only be at most two syllables.
17:53:22 <elliott> cpressey: I say that with five dots to the word, [this would be much easier]
17:53:34 <elliott> evincar: It would be nice to see Tom Lehrer do it.
17:53:48 <cpressey> More easy it will be. Less Yoda like.
17:53:57 <ais523_> hmm, how can people ask me about a lang, then not react at all when I tell them?
17:53:57 <elliott> "Okay, yes, it's a dumb idea, but just go with it." <-- this would be one of the spoken bits
17:54:00 <ais523_> it's kind-of disappointing
17:54:05 <elliott> ais523_: I didn't notice it yet
17:54:20 <elliott> ais523_: I tend to mentally filter out only relevant comments when there's activity I'm participating in and then go back
17:54:28 <elliott> so as not to be too slow to reply
17:54:33 <cpressey> Gone to get... food at the mid part of the day. (Blah!)
17:54:36 <ais523_> I tend to just participate in both conversations simultaneously
17:54:38 <elliott> <ais523_> 2D language with a BF-like tape, two commands: G rotates the IP left if the current tape element isn't 0, not-G corresponds to the BF commands + - < > going up down left right respectively
17:54:42 <elliott> this already exists, I think
17:54:44 <elliott> or at least *very* closely
17:55:08 <elliott> ais523_: presumably G is ascii 32 i.e. space
17:55:10 <ais523_> I was trying to make 1L's instruction set a bit more logical
17:55:29 <ais523_> you could just use the 1L convention of "whatever's in the topleft of the program is one command"
17:55:32 <elliott> ais523_: or perhaps G is the char
17:55:41 <ais523_> but G == G is what Sansism does
17:55:48 <elliott> ais523_: and then not-G can be space
17:55:56 <elliott> ais523_: G should be * i think, since it looks like an arrow pointing in all directions :)
17:56:05 <ais523_> G is meant to look like a clockwise arrow
17:56:24 <ais523_> (if it doesn't, blame Safalra, not me)
17:56:24 <elliott> catseye: Mid time food? Ah yes, at noon.
17:56:55 <ais523_> it looks very like that in some fonts (IIRC The Impossible Quiz exploited that at one point)
17:57:12 <elliott> ais523_: you enabled *Flash* to play that?
17:57:17 <elliott> ais523_: or just heard about it? :p
17:57:51 <ais523_> and actually, I do have Flash enabled, I just use an entirely separate browser for it
17:58:04 <ais523_> it's the only real way to prevent it completely dominating an attempt to use the Web normally
17:58:27 <ais523_> (locked down Firefox, non-locked-down Epiphany)
17:59:02 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:59:08 <evincar> ais523_: Why not use U+2940, anticlockwise closed circle arrow?
17:59:31 <ais523_> evincar: presumably Safalra wanted to keep the code easy to parse
17:59:31 <evincar> (Massive delay due to looking up character.)
17:59:35 <ais523_> and involving Unicode is not that
18:00:13 <evincar> It is reasonable to require a particular encoding for source files.
18:00:24 <evincar> And even just supporting UTF-8 and UTF-16 would be reasonable.
18:00:30 <elliott> evincar: or you could just use bytes
18:00:37 <elliott> and have 30 fewer lines of code
18:00:42 <elliott> and have people actually program in it due to it not being hellish to do so
18:01:17 <ais523_> meh, just use Emacs or something and write a sansism-mode that maps g to C-q 2 9 4 0 RET
18:01:34 <evincar> Hellish isn't so much of an issue for me. Usability sort of goes out the window when considering esoteric languages. If it's usable, then bully. If not, well, I hadn't got my hopes up.
18:01:39 <ais523_> (note: C-q in Emacs is annoying, it defaults to octal, most sane people customise it)
18:01:40 <elliott> ais523_: esolang programs are rare enough :)
18:01:53 <ais523_> elliott: I have an esolangs.el on my laptop somwhere
18:01:58 <ais523_> I'm pretty sure I've posted it to this channel before
18:02:13 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:02:33 <evincar> elliott: Once as in once upon a time, or once as in one time?
18:02:57 <ais523_> heh, it wasn't even me who originally wrote intercal.el (or intercal.vim)
18:02:58 <evincar> (*Multiple times upon a time?)
18:04:00 <ais523_> "once upon a time" is one of those phrases which defies the normal rules of grammar
18:04:03 <evincar> elliott: You remind me of how dangerous it can be to ask a computer scientist "or".
18:04:14 <elliott> evincar: not really, i just answered the truth
18:04:38 <evincar> elliott: I know, but I'm allowed to associate freely.
18:04:39 <elliott> it isn't "computer scientists" who do that, or at least if it is it's just CS morons pretending they know anything about formal logic
18:04:46 <elliott> it's mostly just irritating people who don't have anything interesting to say :p
18:04:55 <ais523_> elliott: what if you're incredibly pedantic, and also happen to be a computer scientist?
18:04:57 <evincar> ais523_: Japanese just has "mukashimukashi", meaning basically "in the past".
18:05:05 <elliott> ais523_: then you know that in language, or means XOR
18:05:12 <elliott> ais523_: either that, or list elements
18:05:15 <elliott> (in a multiple-choice question)
18:05:16 <ais523_> it doesn't actually mean either
18:05:26 <elliott> ais523_: well, it means XOR but you can subvert it with "both"
18:05:30 -!- Slereah has joined.
18:05:32 <ais523_> it creates a sort of ternary logic which includes "both"
18:05:41 <elliott> ais523_: but whatever it is, "yes" is never the answer
18:05:43 <evincar> True, false, file not found.
18:05:44 <ais523_> (this is around the time that I mention that VHDL has 9 different logic levels)
18:05:59 <ais523_> elliott: what about a yes-or-no question?
18:06:15 <elliott> ais523_: aaaaargh, stop it
18:06:17 <ais523_> also, with evincar around, I've discovered that my finger-memory uses a one-letter completion for "elliott" and "ehird"
18:06:18 <elliott> ais523_: you know what i mean
18:06:31 <ais523_> and have had to correct the tab-complete a lot
18:06:38 <ais523_> elliott: I nearly always do do two chars before completing
18:06:47 <ais523_> perhaps the issue is that e and l are at opposite ends of the keyboard
18:06:58 <ais523_> hmm, is your tab-complete case-sensitive?
18:07:14 <elliott> ais523_: perhaps i don't always capitalise it
18:07:14 <evincar> Yeah, two characters is my minimum.
18:07:19 <elliott> ais523_: introspection is impossible, dammit! stop it :)
18:07:38 <evincar> Sometimes I find it unfortunate that I can't tab-complete long words while writing in English.
18:07:59 <evincar> Although editors can make your life easier. i18n^J, anyone?
18:07:59 <cpressey> a cool IRC client would display these unique prefixes on request
18:08:02 <ais523_> evincar: so do I; I actually change nick for that reason on occasion
18:08:06 <elliott> antidisestablishmentarianism
18:08:11 <elliott> antidisestablishmentarianism
18:08:14 <elliott> evincar: time me a final time:
18:08:17 <elliott> antidisestablishmentarianism
18:08:35 <ais523_> elliott: hmm... can you type that word faster or slower than you can copy-paste it?
18:08:41 <ais523_> elliott: I've done it in this channel before now
18:08:48 <ais523_> but I can answer both yes and no to your question
18:08:52 <elliott> ais523_: so, copy it and paste it after I press enter here?
18:08:53 <elliott> antidisestablishmentarianism
18:09:06 <ais523_> yes, in that I was serious in that I change nick for that reason on occasion, no, in that every time I have done the change I wasn't serious
18:09:14 <elliott> so, observation: it takes me about three seconds to type antidisestablishmentarianism and hit enter
18:09:18 <elliott> four seconds when i'm not prepared
18:09:22 <elliott> that's pretty good if you ask me
18:09:27 <elliott> I'm going to try for the record:
18:09:35 <elliott> I'm going to try for the record:
18:09:38 <elliott> antidsiestablishemtnarismn
18:09:43 <ais523_> hey, "whoops" is much shorter than "antidisestablishmentarianism"
18:09:52 <elliott> antidisestablkuishemntanraism
18:09:58 <ais523_> also, I spent a couple of seconds there correcting typos
18:10:13 <ais523_> (strange that I initially typed "connecting" there)
18:10:19 <elliott> antidisestablishmentariannsnim
18:10:30 <elliott> three seconds all the same, though
18:10:35 <elliott> antidisestablishmentariasnnism
18:10:43 <elliott> wow, i am terrible at this
18:10:50 <elliott> antidisetsablishmentarianism
18:11:15 <olsner> heh, I do better when I'm not watching the screen for some reason
18:11:39 <evincar> I'm on my laptop, so I'm not even going to try.
18:11:44 <elliott> so am i (but i have a keyboard)
18:11:47 <evincar> Give me a Model M and I'll beat any of you.
18:11:48 <elliott> antidisestablishmentarianssims
18:11:54 <elliott> antidisetsblishmentarianism
18:12:00 <elliott> antidisetsbalishmentarianism
18:12:05 <elliott> antidisetsablishmentarianism
18:12:11 <elliott> antidisetwsabolishmentarianism
18:12:12 <olsner> harder to read than write antidisestablishmentarianism apparently
18:12:52 <ais523_> hmm, I actually like my keys to have hardly any travel
18:12:57 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: All bee bark.).
18:12:59 <ais523_> this desktop keyboard, they go down a bit too far
18:13:51 <ais523_> I suppose it's a consequence of using laptops for ages
18:16:41 <elliott> ais523_: there's a lot more to travel than one figure
18:17:17 <ais523_> but can I not give a nontechnical viewpoint on something?
18:17:20 <elliott> ais523_: there's how much you can physically press the key down until it hits the bottom, there's how much you need to press until the key gets send to the computer, and on a tactile keyboard, there's how much you need to press before it pushes back (usually shortly after the key actuates)
18:17:29 <elliott> ais523_: well, it's actually important :)
18:18:05 <ais523_> before I spent a couple of years with a laptop, I spent years hotdesking
18:18:17 <ais523_> so I'm even more used to using whatever settings the computer I'm on happens to have
18:18:23 <ais523_> (I suppose this is why I like sane defaults)
18:18:50 * elliott tries to think whether leaden will have any configuration
18:19:03 <elliott> except maybe indentation width. *maybe*
18:19:18 <Gregor> Let's play the GUESS HOW RETARDED JAVASCRIPT IS GAME!
18:19:26 <elliott> ais523_: even when using spaces?
18:19:33 <Gregor> 1) Does this crash? 2) If not, what is the value of x.y?
18:19:38 <ais523_> oh, don't you just type those by hand?
18:19:45 <elliott> ais523_: and you know that I vehemently disagree with you on tabs
18:19:45 <Gregor> elliott: Just had a bug in our instrumentation framework related to this, made me remember :P
18:19:51 <Gregor> elliott: Nope, undefined!
18:19:55 <elliott> ais523_: so you're just trolling
18:20:00 <elliott> Gregor: my next guess was 42
18:20:03 <elliott> Gregor: then "the window object"
18:20:23 <elliott> Gregor: then "the exception that should be thrown when you assign a property to a number"
18:20:29 <ais523_> but there's a genuine question here: say you're using 2-space indentation (for whatever reason), and your editor knows it; you want to indent a level, do you type space space or tab?
18:20:45 <nooga> I WANT BRAUN AW20 WIRSTWATCH!
18:20:47 <cpressey> ais523_: depends on the editor
18:20:47 <elliott> ais523_: Usually, my editor automatically indents at the start of a block for me so I don't have to type anything.
18:20:50 <elliott> ais523_: But in that case, I'd type tab.
18:21:02 <elliott> Tab-the-key means "indent this".
18:21:05 <elliott> Tab-the-character means flamewar.
18:21:09 <elliott> Space-the-character means flamewar.
18:21:13 <elliott> Space-the-key means "put a space in".
18:21:38 <ais523_> I seem to only use tab-the-key in Emacs to mean "recalculate this line's indentation", as that's what it means there; when typing indentation by hand, I tend to use space
18:21:54 <ais523_> partly because it's a pain to keep adjusting editor settings for different tab widths
18:22:14 <ais523_> (when editing other people's code, you want to keep to their spacing conventions)
18:22:20 <elliott> ais523_: In the previous version of leaden, tab did different things depending where in the line you were :)
18:22:23 <cpressey> Gregor: that's not retarded, it's dynamic! Integer values are "black hole containers".
18:22:49 <ais523_> elliott: interesting issue: some of the code I edit (NetHack, C-INTERCAL, etc.) is generally written with the indent=4 spaces, 2 indents=1 tab convention
18:22:56 <ais523_> and yet I change it entirely to spaces when I edit things
18:23:04 <Gregor> elliott: You've just inspired me to change JavaScript. It's famous for basically never crashing (but instead causing crazy behavior); we can make this even more true by just replacing undefined with the window object!
18:23:12 <elliott> ais523_: That's "emacs indentation".
18:23:13 <ais523_> I'm trying to figure out whose philosophies I'm violating here
18:23:16 <elliott> ais523_: It is *pure, liquid evil*.
18:23:21 <elliott> ais523_: (what nethack does)
18:23:38 <cpressey> I refuse to get involved in this discussion on tabs because everyone else is wrong.
18:23:40 <ais523_> hmm, is it really Emacs' fault? I wouldn't be surprised if Hack predated Emacs
18:23:40 <elliott> Not only does it make incorrect assumptions about tab -- I'm not interested ais523_, you're wrong, and besides it means "move to next 8-column", not "8 spaces", even historically --
18:23:48 <elliott> But it also wastes space in the file with spaces for no apparent reason at all,
18:23:54 <elliott> and completely misses the reason for using tabs (adjustable indentation).
18:23:58 <ais523_> elliott: I agree with the move to next 8-column
18:24:06 <elliott> It is the one thing everyone in the spaces/tabs flamewar agrees on.
18:24:07 <ais523_> and the reason for using tabs is to make tables line up on a typewriter
18:24:08 <elliott> Emacs indentation is just lol.
18:24:21 <ais523_> (in QBASIC, tab = move to a multiple of 12, or was it 14?)
18:24:25 <elliott> ais523_: http://www.emacswiki.org/pics/static/TabsSpacesBoth.png
18:24:31 <cpressey> If it only ever meant "move to next 8-column" and everyone knew that and respected it and didn't change it, it would be acceptable.
18:24:42 <elliott> ais523_: and that's on *emacswiki*
18:24:52 <elliott> cpressey: it shouldn't mean that
18:24:57 <ais523_> cpressey: that's what it means in all of GNU coreutils
18:25:04 <cpressey> elliott: It is only ever meant YOUR MO-
18:25:11 <ais523_> (I was reading the docs for those recently)
18:25:13 <elliott> cpressey: the whole purpose of using tabs in a modern area -- and ais523_ just don't even bother replying, I'm uninterested -- is to mean "N spaces", where N is configurable as you desire
18:25:22 <elliott> cpressey: not only does tab then mean "1 block of indentation",
18:25:26 <elliott> cpressey: it's flexible too
18:25:33 <elliott> and again, ais523_, totally not interested in a flamewar
18:25:35 <ais523_> elliott: what does tab in the middle of a line mean?
18:25:40 <elliott> ais523_: it means you're a moron
18:25:43 <cpressey> elliott: So then it's a shitty form of RLE for text files. Not interested.
18:25:44 <elliott> ais523_: (not you specifically)
18:25:55 <elliott> cpressey: Way to ignore half of my argument.
18:25:59 <ais523_> "one is a moron", I imagine
18:26:06 <elliott> ais523_: that's what i was thinking about typing :p
18:26:18 <cpressey> elliott: You seemed to miss all of mine.
18:26:41 <ais523_> cpressey: I get elliott's point: the idea is that you treat tabs like HTML elements, and the editor like CSS
18:26:53 <ais523_> which would be OK, I suppose, if the world worked like that
18:26:56 <elliott> ais523_: stop trying to argue for an argument you disagree with it makes no sense at all
18:27:07 <elliott> cpressey: the whole point is that it has literally no disadvantages over spaces; it's backwards-compatible with bad tools (they just show it as 8-column moves or 8 spaces or whatever), and in almost every modern editor you can set it to, say, four.
18:27:21 <ais523_> elliott: well, the concept of tabs as semantically delimiting a block, and having a separate method of saying how to represent that onscreen
18:27:25 <elliott> cpressey: Over this, spaces... are less flexible for no reason and take up more space in the file for no reason. (yes filesize is irrelevant, but come on)
18:27:28 <cpressey> The disadvantage is that tabs look different to different people.
18:27:40 <cpressey> Making text files that include them look different to different people.
18:27:40 <elliott> cpressey: I presume you mandate code be viewed in a certain font, too?
18:27:53 <elliott> And ban everyone from reformatting it and then formatting back when editing?
18:28:02 <ais523_> elliott: well, what would your opinion be of someone who formatted code with Comic Sans?
18:28:08 <elliott> Probably tabs won't work in a modern idiotic corporate environment.
18:28:14 <elliott> Thankfully I don't give a shit about such environments.
18:28:23 <elliott> ais523_: if their code is good, they're just crazy; otherwise, they're an idiot
18:28:38 <Gregor> If whoever had first decided that ASCII needed a tab character had refrained from doing so, this conversation would not be happening :P
18:28:49 <ais523_> I know there are some good coders who advocate a non-monospaced font for coding
18:28:51 <elliott> Gregor: and we'd be worse-off
18:29:08 <elliott> I'm not interested in a flamewar, I'm just trying to fight off the idiotic ignorance that has set in after spaces somehow won
18:29:15 <ais523_> really, code needs a sort of general depythonisation
18:29:24 <ais523_> as in, replace indentation with increase-indent, decrease-indent chars
18:29:31 <ais523_> that'd make it diff much better, for one thing
18:29:47 <elliott> ais523_: really code needs to stop being stored as bytes
18:29:57 <ais523_> I do appreciate Python's attempt to remove redundancy between the braces and indentation
18:30:00 <elliott> (I'm unconvinced on the benefits of AST editing, but c'mon, you don't have to store it like that.)
18:30:07 <ais523_> but it'd have been better to do it via removing indentation, than via removing braces
18:30:23 <ais523_> a sufficiently good editor should be able to reconstruct the indentation for editing purposes
18:30:35 <elliott> ais523_: do you know how to feed apt-get/aptitude a text file instead of arguments?
18:30:40 <elliott> I, uh, argument list limit.
18:30:56 <ais523_> elliott: IIRC there is a way, but this computer runs CentOS so I can't read the manpage
18:31:19 <ais523_> would using @ then a filename work? that's the usual workaround on DOS, some UNIX programs picked it up too
18:31:38 <cpressey> elliott: I was only pointing out a disadvantage, to correct your statement that there were no disadvantages. Not "mandating" anything.
18:32:00 <elliott> cpressey: I'm saying that the disadvantage isn't.
18:32:15 <elliott> Files look different to different people! Indeed! But it's still indented properly, so what does it matter?
18:32:30 <elliott> And if they're the type to configure their editor, they'll see it in the indentation width they like, too. Kittens for everyone.
18:32:38 <fizzie> elliott: Two megabytes of arguments should be enough for everyone. (getconf ARG_MAX here.)
18:32:43 <elliott> Yes, perhaps some idiots with stupid editors will edit it and get the formatting badly, but they shouldn't be coding anyway.
18:32:46 <ais523_> elliott: if you don't know the indentation width readers will use, how can you prevent lines getting longer than 80 characters?
18:32:53 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, I think it was another issue I had.
18:33:24 <ais523_> I mean, some programs even have blocks nested 10 deep, reading that with less or something would mean that the line didn't even start on the screen
18:33:24 <elliott> ais523_: You can't. The best you can do is getting it 80 or under with an 8-width tab. But honestly, 80 characters is beyond outdated. Even vim can wrap text nicely now.
18:33:36 <elliott> ais523_: And you can always use a tiny perl oneliner to do it for you if you're really using a physical vt100.
18:33:40 <elliott> ais523_: Programs shouldn't have blocks nested 10 deep.
18:33:50 <ais523_> that doesn't change the fact that sometimes they do
18:33:56 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ sudo aptitude install -- $(cat packages)
18:34:05 <elliott> fizzie: packages is a \n-separated list of packages in debian
18:34:08 <ais523_> and wrapping text changes the meaning if you have to-end-of-line comments
18:34:12 <elliott> ais523_: Such programs should be refactored.
18:34:23 <elliott> ais523_: I am uninterested in arguing about the formatting of badly-formatted programs.
18:34:26 <elliott> <ais523_> and wrapping text changes the meaning if you have to-end-of-line comments
18:34:31 <elliott> not if you provide an indicator in the gutter or similar
18:35:33 <ais523_> beh, how do you insert beyond the last character of a line in vim?
18:35:48 <ais523_> it's making it unreasonably difficult, as you can't move the cursor there
18:35:53 <elliott> ais523_: but, uh, nice wrapping isn't enabled by default in vim
18:35:58 <ais523_> and it's ridiculously unvimlike to need a separate command
18:36:01 <elliott> i inserts at point, a inserts after point
18:36:10 <elliott> ais523_: it's just a shortcut
18:36:26 <elliott> ais523_: consider the duality ^i $a
18:36:32 <ais523_> anyway, no "text wrapped" indication as far as I can tell
18:36:43 <elliott> ais523_: also ^a $i which insert at start-but-one and end-but-one
18:36:44 <ais523_> except that I don't see why i and a aren't the same command
18:36:50 <elliott> ais523_: i inserts at point, a inserts after point
18:37:02 <elliott> they behave differently, for a reason
18:37:09 <elliott> ais523_: you can't move the cursor beyond the end of line because there's no character there
18:37:09 <ais523_> point's always in two places one character apart?
18:37:16 <elliott> in normal mode the cursor is always on a character
18:37:23 <ais523_> what if your document has no characters?
18:37:25 <elliott> ais523_: "a" inserts after the cursor
18:37:36 <elliott> ais523_: that doesn't mean the cursor's in a different place
18:37:42 <elliott> ais523_: any more than / means that the cursor is everywhere at once
18:37:46 <elliott> <ais523_> what if your document has no characters?
18:38:05 <ais523_> I know, I'm just pointing out that thinking of the cursor as being on one individual character, rather than in one location between characters, is a bit of a weird design decision
18:38:10 <ais523_> because it needs special cases
18:38:16 <ais523_> you can't even put the cursor on a \n in vim
18:38:18 <elliott> ais523_: it makes using vim nicer
18:38:19 <ais523_> despite it being a character
18:38:29 <elliott> because vim is line-oriented
18:38:46 <cpressey> a cursor on a character is a selection
18:38:48 <elliott> ais523_: remember, it's ed-extended plus graphical
18:38:54 <elliott> cpressey: not in vim afaik
18:39:10 <ais523_> the concept of vi is a good one, and the way it was adapted to vim also good (although a little dubious in places)
18:39:17 <ais523_> but some of the historical hiccups are annoying
18:39:50 <elliott> ais523_: a is not a historical hiccup!
18:40:06 <elliott> ais523_: sometimes I think you troll intentionally...
18:40:11 <ais523_> anyway, after finally managing to write multiple lines of text, it seems vim doesn't indicate that a line's wrapped at all
18:40:21 <elliott> "a is a special case!" "No, it's by design." "[ignores you, continues complaining about a being a special case]"
18:40:25 <ais523_> elliott: I'm pretty good at unintentional trolling
18:40:27 <elliott> <ais523_> anyway, after finally managing to write multiple lines of text, it seems vim doesn't indicate that a line's wrapped at all
18:40:33 <ais523_> normally, when I really want to like something, but nevertheless don't
18:40:52 <ais523_> as for you claiming it's by design, I've seen no evidence of that, nor an obvious reason
18:41:04 <elliott> try line movement chars on the wrapped line
18:41:08 <elliott> ^ and $ being more reasonable
18:41:37 * elliott is uninterested in this circular conversation; refuses to reply further
18:41:46 <ais523_> elliott: here's one for you, then: why are dh and dl asymmetrical?
18:42:00 <ais523_> dh deletes the char before the cursor, dl deletes the char under the cursor
18:42:21 <elliott> ais523_: I white-lied when I said the cursor is on a character, the cursor is actually between two characters, i think
18:42:23 <Gregor> ais523_: Because 'd' mirrored is 'b' and 'h' has a little line drawn off the backwards 'l'
18:42:39 <elliott> ais523_: it is before the highlighted character
18:42:54 <fizzie> ais523_: "set showbreak=x" will put 'x' -- typically in a different color -- in front of lines that are wrapped continuations of the previous line; but I'm not sure if there's anything to indicate it at the end of the line.
18:43:20 <ais523_> elliott: that's what I was suggesting would make more sense; in which case, why can't you put the cursor after the last character (when not in insert mode, which you shouldn't be in if you're moving the cursor)?
18:43:36 <elliott> ais523_: because there's no character after it to be the character that dl would delete
18:43:40 <elliott> ais523_: it can't be before nothing!
18:43:54 <elliott> (empty file *is* a special case, I think, but an unimportant one; I'd have to check nvi source to be sure)
18:43:56 <ais523_> dl should probably delete the newline in that context
18:44:01 <elliott> ais523_: newline isn't part of the line
18:44:20 <elliott> ais523_: this is also why you can't backspace beyond a line by default in vim
18:44:27 <elliott> (you can make it with a config option that everyone uses)
18:44:42 <elliott> ais523_: try it; iabc[n]def[backspace past def]
18:45:06 <ais523_> hmm, I don't see any reason to doubt you on that
18:45:18 <ais523_> I mean, I'm not disputing the reasons, just the reasons for the reasons
18:45:18 <elliott> apart from my general untrustworthiness? :)
18:45:56 <elliott> speaking of vi, % is really nice and leaden should really have it and holy shit my laptop isn't plugged in
18:45:57 <fizzie> ais523_: Also, ":set virtualedit=onemore" to make it possible to move the cursor to that magical place. It may make other things break, though.
18:46:43 <fizzie> (Also not very 'vi'ish.)
18:47:09 * elliott wonders what to bind % to in leaden
18:47:27 <ais523_> is leaden an editor you're writing?
18:47:44 <elliott> ais523_: leaden's an editor i wrote and then lost
18:47:55 <elliott> and now i'm trying to find the code and becoming increasingly resigned to the fact that i'm going to have to rewrite it
18:48:07 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
18:48:11 <elliott> ais523_: it had nice features, like no save function
18:48:33 <elliott> ais523_: yes (note: it still saves files)
18:48:39 <ais523_> oh, did it constantsave with backups?
18:48:50 <elliott> ais523_: constantsave without backups; you use a VCS
18:48:55 <elliott> ais523_: which is also why Ctrl+S means "VCS commit"
18:49:01 <elliott> ais523_: (prompting you for the summary)
18:49:06 <elliott> ais523_: it's a VCS-usage motivator :)
18:49:13 <elliott> it also supports using it with a terminal
18:49:18 <elliott> since you can test changes immediately
18:49:28 <elliott> Gregor: why does everyone think they're the target market for my software?
18:49:28 <ais523_> hmm, how would that work with git? the staging area would seem to screw things up
18:49:46 <elliott> ais523_: eh? you edit the file in your working copy, and it saves it automatically
18:49:48 <ais523_> it'd work pretty amazingly with scapegoat, though, if I ever get round to writing it
18:49:50 <elliott> then when you're happy, Ctrl+S
18:49:58 <Gregor> elliott: Why are you mentioning it here if the only person you want comments from is you?
18:50:15 <ais523_> elliott: I mean, what would control-S do? stage, then commit? what if you have another file edited at the time? what if you have anoher file staged?
18:50:15 * Gregor goes back to paying no attention :P
18:50:17 <elliott> Gregor: perhaps if "... eww" had any reasoning I would reply to it, but, it didn't
18:50:26 <elliott> ais523_: It would just run "git commit" with your summary.
18:50:33 <elliott> ais523_: but yes, if you have edited other files they'll be committed too
18:50:37 <elliott> ais523_: it does have backups in a way, anyway
18:50:46 <elliott> and the undo persists across program invocations
18:50:54 <ais523_> that'd be kind of pointless, given that if you're just doing "git commit" then the file you just edited isn't actually committed
18:50:55 <elliott> (it's saved in ~/.cache/ or whatever the directory is these days)
18:51:10 <elliott> ais523_: or possibly just git commit file
18:51:16 <elliott> I'll have to see which is more useful in practice before I decide
18:51:39 <ais523_> what would make scapegoat really work amazingly would be if it was integrated with the editor so that it actually knew what, say, had been copied, etc., so it could do merges correctly
18:51:46 <elliott> ais523_: probably more likely -a, since you shouldn't really commit to anything you're doing if you can't run it locally and have it work
18:51:46 <ais523_> and the editor could just use it as undo info
18:51:52 <elliott> (which might be why you don't want -a, only one file works)
18:51:53 <cpressey> I don't know what it is yet, but it's something between a "file explorer" and grep
18:52:00 <ais523_> it's a fractal VCS, in that it changes are made out of lumps of smaller changes
18:52:28 <ais523_> and eventually you get down to the level of "this addition of the string 'hello' was made by adding 'h' 'e' 'l' 'l' 'o'"
18:52:35 <elliott> cpressey: graphical clicky file list with backwards/forwards/up functions and also a small terminal underneath that lets you select files and have them become part of the argument list, or if you type * e.g. all the files in the upper pane are highlighted?
18:52:38 <elliott> that's something i've wanted a while
18:52:49 <ais523_> although it probably still does diffs at line granularity, because below that merging gets really counterintuitive sometimes
18:52:55 <elliott> ais523_: I'd be happy to add scapegoat support whenever it comes out :P
18:53:11 <ais523_> I just mean, I'm surprised our visions are so similar on this
18:53:38 <elliott> ais523_: technically i stole that vision from yaedit, which did the save-on-every-keypress thing but not the VCS thing, which is just stupid
18:53:58 <ais523_> I like the fractal structure, because it really cuts down on the number of commands you need to manage things
18:54:00 <elliott> although the author says you're supposed to use it with a terminal, so you could commit there, still.
18:54:10 <ais523_> making a tag and making a commit are exactly the same concept, for instance
18:54:20 <elliott> ais523_: please tell me commands take a --zoom argument which tells them how many layers of fractalness to descend before operating
18:54:21 <ais523_> which is the same concept as saving a file
18:54:35 <ais523_> elliott: I haven't quite decided on the syntax for that yet
18:54:43 <ais523_> but you'll certainly be able to do something like that
18:54:50 <elliott> ais523_: perhaps nested parens! :D
18:55:02 <elliott> $ scapegoat '((((commit))))'
18:55:06 <cpressey> elliott: I... don't think that's it exactly
18:55:17 <elliott> cpressey: It would be cool, though. Gotta admit that.
18:55:26 <elliott> You could also do things like, uh
18:55:34 <elliott> And have those appear in the top pane.
18:55:41 <elliott> cpressey: Really I just piggybacked on your idea to plug my idea.
18:55:53 <cpressey> elliott: yes, I notice you do that quite a bit.
18:56:19 <elliott> cpressey: I don't know whether to be offended or flattered.
18:56:21 <ais523_> $ scapegoat '****commit' seems like a potential idea
18:56:32 <elliott> ais523_: that makes me think of a correction
18:56:36 <ais523_> although, really, it'd need more information about what to do with the argument
18:56:40 <elliott> ais523_: I'd just use a repeated flag
18:56:59 <elliott> where the code for -z handling is zoom++
18:57:03 <Vorpal> ais523_, this scapegoat thingy sounds awesome
18:57:29 <ais523_> well, the concept of -z would be "instead of operating on this change, operate on all changes it bundles"
18:57:35 <elliott> ais523_: quick, explain it to Vorpal more so he starts hating it
18:57:42 <elliott> <ais523_> well, the concept of -z would be "instead of operating on this change, operate on all changes it bundles"
18:57:52 <Vorpal> ais523_, but I don't think it would be easy to use "<ais523_> $ scapegoat '****commit' seems like a potential idea" would work very well unless there are very few layers
18:58:10 <ais523_> there wouldn't be many layers at all, I imagine
18:58:22 <elliott> ais523_: maybe give -z a cousin, z^
18:58:22 <ais523_> also, you probably wouldn't want to mass-operate on the lower layers, you just could if you wanted to
18:58:36 <Vorpal> ais523_, ah then it could work just fine, otherwise you would run into the issue "how many of those * are there"
18:58:40 <cpressey> elliott: I think what I'm thinking of is basically incremental grep -r, with the results immediately displayed in something like a folding editor pane
18:58:58 <ais523_> hmm, apart from the "incremental" Emacs almost does that already
18:58:58 <cpressey> but also throw some directory lists in there
18:59:10 <elliott> cpressey: ah, like, show a file tree?
18:59:14 <cpressey> ais523_: yeah, i sort of thought it did
18:59:15 <elliott> cpressey: well that's a leaden feature! :P
18:59:23 <elliott> leaden is basically two tightly-integrated programs
18:59:38 <ais523_> - a Towers of Hanoi simulation
18:59:38 <elliott> admittedly, all i ever did was the start of the latter one
18:59:54 <elliott> ais523_: but hey, it automatically inserted and removed 4-space indentations for python code very early on :)
19:00:01 <elliott> and it self-hosted after it was like
19:00:11 <elliott> (I did all its development in itself after that until I lost it)
19:00:22 <elliott> which was fun when i accidentally deleted huge swathes of code, thank god for not closing it and Ctrl+Z
19:00:44 <elliott> i hadn't persisted undos yet :)
19:00:44 <Vorpal> elliott, pesumably you kept it in git?
19:00:55 <cpressey> it would also be nice to have a shell that automatically captured the result of each command in a buffer, and let you navigate through buffers. emacs does this too, i bet
19:00:56 <elliott> i rarely version-control things until they're at about 1.0
19:01:02 <elliott> but, like, the first useful release
19:01:12 <ais523_> it's pretty good, but its command repeat is somewhat suspect
19:01:18 <cpressey> oh curse it all, don't make me use emacs
19:01:23 <elliott> Vorpal: especially as i basically hate the usual workflow of version control which is *why* i'm using leaden as a vehicle to fix that
19:01:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm the kind of guy who starts by creating a repo, then starts coding
19:01:34 <cpressey> (i'm addressing the Fates, not anyone here)
19:01:39 <ais523_> (for bonus points, the same mode works just fine, for say, ghci)
19:01:43 <elliott> it is merely one of numerous thinsg horribly wrong with you :p
19:02:04 <elliott> ais523_: not as well as inferior-haskell thouh
19:02:05 <cpressey> Once projects mature, they get their own repo.
19:02:17 <elliott> ais523_: so does haskell-mode!
19:02:19 <elliott> and haskell-indentation-mode!
19:02:31 <elliott> ais523_: try C-x C-l sometime
19:02:37 <elliott> inferior-haskell will pop up
19:02:41 <cpressey> just sayin', i need no encouragement to use version control. I've been burnt enough times by disk failures etc.
19:02:51 <elliott> ais523_: it's not *that* good, you can get it to hang if you C-c C-l after trying to and getting a syntax error
19:03:00 <elliott> ais523_: but it does highlight errors in red and let you click them to go to that location in the file
19:03:16 <elliott> ais523_: with haskell? good luck!
19:03:27 <elliott> ais523_: you probably want http://projects.haskell.org/haskellmode-emacs/
19:03:31 <elliott> not whatever packaged version
19:03:43 <Vorpal> ais523_, what bugs me with M-x shell is that up key doesn't go up in history
19:03:54 <elliott> ais523_: install instructions: put it somewhere, (load "THERE/haskell-site-file")
19:03:55 <ais523_> hmm, flymake-mode plus clang could be impressive
19:03:55 <elliott> (add-hook 'haskell-mode-hook 'turn-on-haskell-doc-mode)
19:03:56 <elliott> (add-hook 'haskell-mode-hook 'turn-on-haskell-indentation)
19:04:01 <elliott> ais523_: that turns on all the fancy things
19:04:06 <ais523_> Vorpal: as I said, its command repeat is rather suspect
19:04:09 <elliott> doc-mode just shows you the signatures of functions in the modeline as you type them
19:04:17 <elliott> indentation does the super-fancy indentation which most people love and some people hate
19:04:22 <ais523_> elliott: my packaged haskell-mode does both of those
19:04:24 <elliott> (note: press tab to cycle between possible indentations)
19:04:32 <elliott> ais523_: a lot of packages are out of date
19:04:38 <elliott> ais523_: anyway, yes, C-c C-l should Just Work
19:04:40 <ais523_> also, it isn't the modeline, it's the minibuffer
19:04:44 <elliott> "- Interaction with inferior Haskell interpreter: just hit C-c C-z or C-c C-l."
19:05:01 <ais523_> modeline is plausible in that context, just wrong
19:05:04 <Vorpal> ais523_, also pgup/pgdown maps to emacs, not to shell
19:05:11 <Vorpal> ais523_, I use them for "search in history"
19:05:17 <elliott> ais523_: it would be perverse to do that in the modeline :)
19:05:29 <ais523_> Vorpal: control-R makes a better "search in history" in bash, at least
19:05:37 <ais523_> and happily works in M-x shell as well
19:05:56 <Vorpal> ais523_, um, why is it better?
19:05:57 <elliott> anyone: do you have leaden's source code?
19:06:06 <elliott> I don't think I ever put it on the interwebs :(
19:06:13 <ais523_> Vorpal: incremental search
19:06:19 <Vorpal> "\e[5~": history-search-backward
19:06:19 <Vorpal> "\e[6~": history-search-forward
19:06:25 <Vorpal> ais523_, I'm used that that
19:06:27 <ais523_> plus repeated tapping of control-R to get a different entry from history
19:06:38 <Vorpal> ais523_, repeated tapping pgup is easier
19:06:59 <elliott> that's almost as stupid as liking numpad in nethack
19:07:01 <ais523_> no it isn't, the pgup key is tiny and confined to a small corner of the laptop
19:07:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I find it easier. *shurg*
19:07:06 <ais523_> in fact, I haven't even memorised wher eit is
19:07:13 <Vorpal> ais523_, on a laptop yes
19:07:16 <elliott> no it isn't, the pgup key is normal-sized and confined to the Block of Nearly Useless Keys in the middle
19:07:18 <Vorpal> I'm using a full size PC keyboard
19:07:23 <ais523_> I press /SysRq/ more often than I press PgUp
19:07:25 <elliott> well, counting the main part as the same size as the numpad
19:07:33 <elliott> ais523_: I like where pgup/down is on this keyboard
19:07:42 <Vorpal> <elliott> well, counting the main part as the same size as the numpad
19:07:47 <elliott> ais523_: ctrl win menu alt spaaaaaaaaaace altgr pgup pgdown ctrl
19:07:48 <ais523_> on this desktop keyboard I happen to be using, it's in a pretty weird place
19:07:59 <elliott> ais523_: it's nice because i can easily scroll through things with my thumb
19:08:11 <elliott> I use it a lot in IRC to see more scrollback
19:08:14 <ais523_> it's in the Block Of Nearly Useless Keys, but in the centre-right (it's, abnormally, a 3x3 block)
19:08:25 <elliott> I used to hit it a lot by mistake but I've adjusted now
19:08:41 <elliott> I find pgup/pgdown useful but Ctrl+R is easier to type, yse.
19:08:43 <Vorpal> ais523_, what are the 3 extra keys then?
19:08:45 <ais523_> above the Block in question is a Block Of Totally Useless Keys, with icons of Internet Explorer (6, by the look of it), Outlook Express, and a moon
19:09:01 <ais523_> and the three extra keys in the Block are used for the keys normally above the Block
19:09:10 <elliott> ais523_: we need a better key-combo notation, one that handles both "press this *after* this" and "press this *with* this", and also handles pathological things like control minus and alt minus well
19:09:13 <ais523_> also, End is physically touching Up, presumably because the Block is bigger
19:09:14 <Vorpal> ais523_, moon would be suspend to disk presumably
19:09:27 <ais523_> and the other two have obvious meanings, just probably not while running Linux
19:09:32 * ais523_ presses the IE key to see what happens
19:09:51 <elliott> ais523_: also, which is short to type
19:10:20 <ais523_> I've been using - for "simultaneously" and , for "consecutively", and parens
19:10:36 <elliott> ais523_: with simultaneously, how do you notate control minus?
19:10:51 <elliott> ais523_: or, with a + system, control plus
19:11:02 <ais523_> e.g. "to shut down my old laptop by hand, type alt-((fn-sysrq),r,(fn-sysrq),e,(fn-sysrq),i,(fn-sysrq),s,(fn-sysrq),u,(fn-sysrq),b)
19:11:04 <elliott> ais523_: "Control -" and "Control +" are nicer, but that leaves the problem of sequential keys
19:11:13 <ais523_> I used control-- because it's unambiguous
19:11:30 <elliott> <ais523_> e.g. "to shut down my old laptop by hand, type alt-((fn-sysrq),r,(fn-sysrq),e,(fn-sysrq),i,(fn-sysrq),s,(fn-sysrq),u,(fn-sysrq),b)
19:11:36 <ais523_> incidentally, this is why putting sysrq behind fn is really annoying
19:11:47 <ais523_> it took me ages to find that /particular/ way of typing it
19:11:55 <elliott> you have to hold down sysrq while typing such commands
19:12:02 <ais523_> nope, you have to hold down alt
19:12:05 <elliott> ais523_: also, it isn't fn-sysrq
19:12:11 <elliott> it's fn-whatever-you-use-with-fn-to-get-sysrq
19:12:20 <elliott> <ais523_> but you can release sysrq ;; oh, emergency rebooting now will be so much easier :D
19:12:28 <elliott> ais523_: also, yours doesn't shut down
19:12:29 <Vorpal> ais523_, sysrq is a bit buggered on my laptop in that respect too.
19:12:41 <ais523_> replace Boring with Ominous for a shutdown
19:12:46 <Vorpal> ais523_, but shouldn't using prtsc work, since normally they are on the same key
19:13:03 <ais523_> elliott: I don't need the mnemonic
19:13:13 <ais523_> in fact, knowing the command sequence makes the mnemonic easier to memorise
19:13:22 <ais523_> but it's the usual Raising Elephants Is So Utterly Boring one
19:13:30 <elliott> I just memorised REISUB, pronounced "reesub" or "raysub"
19:13:51 <ais523_> elliott: well, I encountered the mnemonic before I encountered the sequence
19:14:06 <ais523_> in fact, the first mnemonic I encountered had S before E, but I dislike that order of doing things
19:14:17 <Vorpal> <ais523_> in fact, knowing the command sequence makes the mnemonic easier to memorise <-- thus the mnemonic can be considered rather failed?
19:14:21 <ais523_> what if a program decides to write autosave data to disk in response to SIGTERM?
19:14:34 <elliott> ais523_: hmm, it seems that you should probably press i a few seconds after e
19:14:37 <elliott> I usually type it out as one word
19:14:42 <elliott> albeit not quite as quickly
19:14:45 <ais523_> you should wait a few seconds between every pair
19:14:52 <elliott> oh well, i've never had an issue
19:14:54 <ais523_> except arguably U to B, because setting disks readonly doesn't take long
19:15:00 <elliott> ais523_: surely not after R
19:15:02 <elliott> that's an instant operation
19:15:10 <ais523_> I always break to press control-alt-f1 after R
19:15:12 <elliott> "Call oom_kill, which kills a process to alleviate an OOM condition"
19:15:14 <elliott> ais523_: dare me to do this now
19:15:16 <ais523_> just to see if it was the keyboard controller that was borked
19:15:29 <ais523_> elliott: if you're not doing anything important, you may as well see what happens
19:15:35 <ais523_> make sure you save your work first, etc. etc.
19:15:48 <elliott> ais523_: nothing happened; how disappointing
19:15:53 <ais523_> check syslog to see what it killed
19:16:07 <elliott> Oct 28 19:15:18 dinky kernel: [10781.698175] SysRq : This sysrq operation is disabled.
19:16:07 <Vorpal> ais523_, personally I remember it by the order of the commands, like raw "tErm kIll Sync Unmount reBoot"
19:16:09 <ais523_> maybe nothing /visible/ happened
19:16:13 <Vorpal> ais523_, I find that easier
19:16:17 <elliott> ais523_: thank you, big brother linux!
19:16:20 <elliott> Vorpal: can you really not memorise "reisub"?
19:16:22 <Vorpal> err " ended up in wrong place
19:16:26 <ais523_> Vorpal: well, it takes random letters from each word
19:16:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well it would be easy, but also pointless
19:16:42 <ais523_> I hadn't even memorised the reason for the letters, just "E = terminate", etc
19:16:46 <Vorpal> ais523_, only for term and kill
19:16:48 <elliott> ais523_: how on earth and why was that disabled, I wonder?
19:16:58 <ais523_> I mean, would you /guess/ that Shutdown was O?
19:17:17 <ais523_> (I take it from context you're on Linux)
19:17:17 <Vorpal> <elliott> ais523_: how on earth and why was that disabled, I wonder? <-- /proc/sys I presume
19:17:31 <elliott> i forgot how awful /proc is
19:17:34 <Vorpal> elliott, check sysctl.conf
19:17:39 <elliott> elliott@dinky:/proc/sys/kernel$ cat sysrq
19:17:52 <Vorpal> I never seen it that way before
19:18:11 <ais523_> bitmask seems plausible for such an apparently random number
19:18:15 <elliott> Vorpal: nothing sysrq in my sysctl.conf
19:18:21 <Vorpal> I thought it was a *boolean*
19:18:31 <elliott> Vorpal: wow @ sysctl, you use a program to do cat and echo for you?
19:18:39 <elliott> what a sad summary of current unix practice
19:18:40 <Vorpal> elliott, shorter to type :P
19:19:03 <Vorpal> elliott, also on *bsd /proc/sys doesn't exist
19:19:05 <elliott> linux: manages to copy a plan 9 concept (/proc), take away all the useful things from it, and then get rid of the whole point of it
19:19:29 <Vorpal> elliott, /sys doesn't have this
19:19:33 <elliott> which isn't the same thing
19:19:43 <ais523_> elliott: I disagree; linux /proc might not work as well as plan9 /proc, but it's still useful
19:19:58 <elliott> ais523_: well, ok, but vastly less so
19:19:58 <ais523_> for one thing, it's responsible for ensuring that all inodes have filenames
19:20:28 <elliott> ais523_: please try and make him figure it out for once...
19:20:42 <ais523_> hmm, am I not allowed to be helpful?
19:20:56 <elliott> ais523_: not for something so easily figurable out, surely? Vorpal asks what every five minutes
19:20:56 <cpressey> What are we making Vorpal figure out now?
19:20:59 <Vorpal> well there is an obvious solution, but that seems a rather stupid definition
19:21:07 <elliott> cpressey: how /proc makes sure every inode has a filename
19:21:09 <ais523_> why /proc is responsible for ensuring that all inodes have filenames
19:21:10 <Vorpal> if you refer to /proc/<pid>/fd/
19:21:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a sort of a silly boolean-bitmask hybrid: 0 is off, 1 means "all values enabled", and any other non-zero values work as a bitmask.
19:21:18 <elliott> "It's stupid because... because it's stupid!"
19:21:22 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:21:28 <Vorpal> so it doesn't actually work out at all
19:21:28 <ais523_> Vorpal: they're only sort-of symlinks
19:21:31 <elliott> ais523_: ok, i've enabled it now
19:21:36 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:21:47 <cpressey> Yeah, I have no idea why or how it does that, so OK.
19:21:47 -!- elliott has joined.
19:21:48 <Vorpal> ais523_, yes but they have different inode numbers afaik
19:21:50 <elliott> ais523_: what are the chances?
19:21:52 <elliott> ais523_: it killed *xchat*
19:21:55 <Vorpal> they *couldn't* have the same ones
19:22:00 <ais523_> if the file's been deleted, they stat as broken symlinks, but can be read from anyway
19:22:06 <ais523_> elliott: it doesn't seem that implausible
19:22:11 <elliott> ais523_: time to try again
19:22:15 <ais523_> I figured what had happened straight off
19:22:17 <elliott> Oct 28 19:21:49 dinky kernel: [11172.905065] Killed process 1939 (pidgin)
19:22:34 <elliott> Oct 28 19:22:05 dinky kernel: [11188.911397] Killed process 1928 (xfce4-menu-plug)
19:22:44 <ais523_> you're using xchat and pidgin simultaneously?
19:22:51 <elliott> ais523_: yes, pidgin is beyond awful for IRC
19:22:53 <Vorpal> ais523_, but they can't have the same inodes since they if the same inode number existed on two different file systems and both were open, /proc would break badly
19:23:05 <Vorpal> thus not all inodes have names
19:23:05 <ais523_> I know people who use it on Windows; it doesn't seem as bad as mIRC
19:23:16 <elliott> ais523_: mIRC is a pretty damn good client
19:23:20 <elliott> pidgin is utterly terrible
19:23:27 <elliott> ais523_: pidgin treats IRC rooms like small IM-protocol group convos
19:23:34 <elliott> which is just hilariously brokem
19:23:35 <ais523_> mIRC's really annoying for anyone else in the channel at the same time
19:23:49 <cpressey> it keeps barfing up green shit, man
19:24:00 <ais523_> it keeps sending random control codes followed by numbers
19:24:01 <cpressey> it needs to see a doctor about that
19:24:07 <Vorpal> ais523_, oh that. Only due to control codes
19:24:08 <ais523_> followed by setting a white foreground
19:24:15 <elliott> ais523_: maybe ancient versions...
19:24:23 <Vorpal> ais523_, and user stupidity
19:24:27 <ais523_> white foreground on colored background = what client encourages people to think that's a good idea?
19:24:30 <elliott> yeah i'll chalk that down to user stupidity
19:24:37 <elliott> mirc has never done that for me
19:24:41 <elliott> ais523_: you're *very* good at FUD
19:24:48 <ais523_> I've been in channels where nearly all the users are mIRC users
19:24:51 <elliott> can you not immediately attribute things to other things without making sure first?
19:25:10 <fizzie> It hasn't ever been sending color codes for me either without specifically asking for them. Various mIRC *scripts* are another thing, though.
19:25:15 <ais523_> oh, the people ask for them
19:25:25 <elliott> ais523_: then those people are stupid
19:25:40 <ais523_> but still, why does it have an option to send codes that only other people who use the same client understand? and assume that other clients will interpret it the same way?
19:25:43 <elliott> ugh, pebkac on google images gives userfriendly comics
19:25:48 <elliott> ais523_: mirc colours is oooold
19:26:15 <elliott> I totally sit in front of my keyboard
19:26:27 <ais523_> hmm, I wonder if that can be fixed by holding the keyboard behind me, so that it's the air that's to blame? </phb>
19:26:29 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah that is a problem right there!
19:26:43 <Vorpal> elliott, ergonomics joke.
19:26:52 <elliott> oh, your joke is "that's not ergonomic!"
19:27:22 <Vorpal> elliott, "problem exist [in the fact in] sitting between keyboard and chair"
19:27:45 <ais523_> that is actually a valid pun
19:27:53 <ais523_> it just requires so much explanation to get, that it probably wasn't worth it
19:28:00 <elliott> i wonder if humour on a level as terrible as Vorpal's is genetic
19:28:09 <elliott> if so, i had better start promoting eugenics in sweden
19:28:22 <elliott> <ais523_> [takes it seriously]
19:28:32 <elliott> ais523_: are you going to /nick ais523? like ever? :p
19:28:45 <ais523_> elliott: but then the wireless might start working and kick me off from this connection
19:29:00 <ais523_> (note, I actually stopped trying after an hour or so)
19:29:19 <elliott> ais523_: it's unlikely to do that if your client doesn't automatically ghost
19:29:24 <pikhq> I wonder if it would be feasible to become a citizen of every country that allows for multiple citizenship.
19:29:40 <ais523_> elliott: I know it doesn't; instead, it'd pick the name ais523_
19:29:43 <ais523_> and that would just be confusing
19:29:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, that would certainly be interesting
19:30:13 <pikhq> Not to mention awesome.
19:30:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed, can you make a list of which countries these are
19:30:28 <pikhq> "Show me your passport?" "Which? I've got dozens!"
19:31:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, you would need a suitcase for just the passports!
19:31:11 <ais523_> one of my friends at school was simultaneously New Zealandish and English
19:31:15 <elliott> 04:38:13 <oklopol> there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into.
19:31:21 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into.
19:31:23 <HackEgo> 249|<oklopol> there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into.
19:31:45 <elliott> ais523_: New... Zealand...ish?
19:31:46 <ais523_> and she talked about the difficulty of trying to maintain the genetic balance of nationalities within her family so as to not lose one citizenship or the other
19:32:01 <ais523_> elliott: well, any alternative I could come up with would have been misleading
19:32:08 <ais523_> so I just tried to be precise but incorrect
19:32:08 <pikhq> ais523_: Uuuuh, that's not how citizenship works.
19:32:15 <ais523_> pikhq: apparently, it is in New Zealand
19:32:26 <elliott> Note to self: LOL NEW ZEALAND CUR-AAZEY
19:33:42 <pikhq> New Zealand citizenship is jus solis, and UK citizenship is jus sanguinis and jus solis.
19:34:03 <elliott> French citizenship is au jus.
19:34:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, what does that mean
19:34:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: Citizenship by being born there for jus solis, citizenship by being born a decendant for jus sanguinis.
19:34:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, and what about citizenship by moving there and applying for it?
19:35:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's naturalisation.
19:35:26 <ais523_> <Wikipedia> Modification of jus soli has been criticized as contributing to economic inequality, the perpetuation of unfree labour from a helot underclass, and statelessness.
19:35:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: I was only discussing automatic forms of citizenship.
19:35:33 <Vorpal> elliott, you actually made a funny joke!
19:35:55 <ais523_> I suspect elliot considers eir own joke to be unfunny in that context
19:36:03 <elliott> <elliott> French citizenship is au jus.
19:36:11 <pikhq> Oh, New Zealand also has jus soli citizenship.
19:36:19 <Vorpal> elliott, so why did you say it
19:36:28 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe i wanted to bait you into saying that
19:36:31 <pikhq> Erm, jus sanguinis...
19:36:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt it. Besides I stand for my point of view
19:37:03 <pikhq> Anyways, it wouldn't be too hard to pass down UK and New Zealand citizenship.
19:37:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about Sweden? (And where do you find this info)
19:37:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: Wikipedia!
19:37:46 <ais523_> pikhq: presumably one of the restrictions against citizenship tourism was that if you married someone of a different nationality and your parents didn't come from there, you lost it again
19:37:55 <ais523_> also, Wikipedia was an obvious place to check
19:38:02 <ais523_> I mean, I went there without being prompted
19:38:54 <fizzie> There is someone's (very vague) plan for getting a 13-fold citizenship without naturalization (just some selective breeding) at http://archives.conlang.info/bhi/dardan/dhiaghaencal.html but I haven't seen any actual attempts at.
19:39:18 <pikhq> ais523_: Actually, the restrictions against citizenship tourism are, in New Zealand, as with most other places, that the citizenship gets transferred by descent if one parent is not citizen soley by descent, except if there would be no other citizenship.
19:39:31 <ais523_> you'd need to find a large number of famillies willing to crossbread to make it work, wouldn't you?
19:39:50 <ais523_> pikhq: hmm, perhaps my friend's parents were just worried about the nationality of her children
19:39:56 <fizzie> ais523_: Well, in that plan "parent 2: born in Taiwan, parents a) Russian and b) Romania-living ethnic German" might not be completely trivial to find.
19:40:14 <ais523_> well, you could presumably engineer it
19:40:20 <elliott> "Wow... complicated stuff. Just out of curiosity, why do you want to
19:40:21 <elliott> know? Intellectual exercise?"
19:40:26 <pikhq> ais523_: And with the UK, if you wouldn't get the citizenship automatically, due to your parents being citizens soley by descent, you can *register* as a citizen.
19:40:29 <elliott> no, actually a ridiculously comprehensive getaway plan
19:40:29 <ais523_> but you'd need quite a lot of families to cooperate into arranged marriages
19:40:35 <ais523_> pikhq: there's even an exam
19:40:44 <ais523_> it was the subject of quite a bit of public ridicule at the time, IIRC
19:41:04 <ais523_> nowadays they purport to teach citizenship in schools
19:41:05 <pikhq> ais523_: Which consists of: living in the UK for 5 years, and informing the government that you are now a citizen.
19:41:11 <ais523_> but nobody takes it seriously, not even the teachers
19:41:22 <ais523_> pikhq: are you sure that hasn't been changed since the source you're reading?
19:41:23 <elliott> ais523_: no, they don't, that's pshserhe now i think
19:41:28 <ais523_> it was in the last few years it changed, IIRC
19:41:37 <ais523_> elliott: PSE/PSHE and Citizenship were different subjects
19:41:49 <ais523_> this is after I left school, so quite recently
19:41:54 <elliott> (Personal Social Horticultural Seafaring Ecclesiastical Rambunctious Health Education)
19:42:08 <pikhq> ais523_: Uuh, I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about.
19:42:14 <ais523_> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_citizenship#British_citizenship_by_naturalisation
19:42:25 <pikhq> ais523_: Registration is different from naturalisation.
19:42:28 <elliott> ais523_: thought: DOS would be so much nicer without that pesky shell and API
19:42:42 <elliott> ais523_: like, if it was just something that could load and execute a COM from an FS, and had filesystem routines.
19:42:49 <ais523_> pikhq: ah; seems you have to be a British national already to pull that one off
19:43:02 <ais523_> elliott: it has an interrupt for malloc
19:43:16 <elliott> ais523_: see, this is why DOS sucks!
19:43:18 <ais523_> (because I learnt other OSes before I learnt DOS)
19:43:19 <pikhq> ais523_: Or a member of a few different other things.
19:43:24 <cpressey> ais523_: wait, why is that amusing
19:43:41 <elliott> ais523_: DOS ought to be: a driver for floppies and disks, filesystem routines for these, and a COM loader
19:43:41 <pikhq> ais523_: Such as being a child of a British citizen.
19:43:47 <cpressey> other than interrupts being generally amusing
19:43:49 <elliott> ais523_: it would be the perfect OS
19:44:01 <ais523_> I mean, OSes like UNIX have sbrk() as the system call, not malloc() itself
19:44:27 <ais523_> elliott: presumably, you could still use BIOS interrupts for I/O, etc?
19:44:30 <cpressey> ais523_: I... suppose. One of several distinctions that DOS just kind of... obviates.
19:44:42 <elliott> ais523_: or, more likely, just use the DOS routines
19:44:58 <elliott> ais523_: it can provide a drive access API, a filesystem API, and a COM loader API; just nothing else
19:45:15 <cpressey> You could strip down FreeDOS fairly easily
19:45:16 <elliott> ais523_: a command shell could add screen printing functions if it wanted, I suppose
19:45:23 <elliott> ais523_: but otherwise you'd just use VGA memory
19:45:28 <ais523_> hmm, it seems you can renounce British citizenship whenever you want
19:45:38 -!- cheater99 has joined.
19:45:41 <ais523_> by declaring it to the Home Secretary
19:45:55 <elliott> ais523_: you have to have citizenship of another state to do so
19:46:03 <cpressey> and then put FreeDOS into Bochs and then turn that into a web browser where pages are boot disk images
19:46:03 <pikhq> ais523_: Also fun, it's really easy to pull off Irish/UK dual citizenship. Be born in North Ireland, and then go to Ireland and perform an action that only Irish citizens can perform.
19:46:06 <elliott> so you couldn't just go to the home secretary now and say "yo, decitizenise me"
19:46:13 <elliott> he'd go "no ud have nowher to go"
19:46:13 <ais523_> nope, just intend to get it in the next 6 months
19:46:18 <pikhq> ais523_: Thereby instantly becoming a citizen of Ireland.
19:46:20 <elliott> ais523_: i can become stateless
19:46:25 <ais523_> if your citizenship bid fails, you get UK citizenship back
19:46:36 <ais523_> becoming stateless is not particularly awesome, btw
19:46:40 <elliott> ais523_: but what if you just keep applying for, say, kazakhergidstan citizenship
19:46:42 <cpressey> ais523_: it has its sticky bit set
19:46:46 <elliott> and keep renouncing UK citizenship
19:46:52 <elliott> to be a citizen for, like, one day every six months
19:47:00 <elliott> <cpressey> and then put FreeDOS into Bochs and then turn that into a web browser where pages are boot disk images
19:47:01 <ais523_> apparently they don't have to give it back the second time
19:47:10 <pikhq> elliott: The Japanese consititution has enumerated rights. Among these rights is the right to cease to be a Japanese citizen for *any reason at all*.
19:47:18 <elliott> ais523_: what i'd really like to be is an EU citizen
19:47:25 <pikhq> elliott: You are an EU citizen.
19:47:30 <ais523_> pikhq: couldn't you then legally ask for asylum in Japan, if you were a Japanese citizen beforehand?
19:47:44 <elliott> i.e. wherever you are in the EU, you are the type of citizen EU citizens are if they go abroad to the EU now
19:47:46 <ais523_> there is something very screwy about this
19:47:46 <pikhq> ais523_: You can also get citizenship back instantly.
19:48:20 <elliott> pikhq: so, hypothetically, if you wanted to commit a crime and Japan lacked laws to punish foreigners who commit crimes...
19:48:30 <elliott> cpressey: you hardly need to hack freedos, though
19:48:32 <ais523_> "From 1 January 2004, all new applicants for British citizenship by naturalisation or registration aged 18 or over if their application is successful must attend a citizenship ceremony and either make an affirmation or take an oath of allegiance to the monarch, and also make a pledge to the United Kingdom."
19:48:40 <elliott> cpressey: IDE routines are a page of asm
19:48:46 <elliott> cpressey: FAT routines are a page or two of asm
19:48:49 <elliott> cpressey: COM loading is a few bytes of asm :P
19:48:54 <ais523_> that doesn't really make sense, Labour were in power then
19:48:57 <cpressey> elliott: everything is easy etc etc
19:48:59 <ais523_> and it's the sort of thing the Conservatives would do
19:49:12 <elliott> cpressey: well, you could do it in like three to four pages of asm, total
19:49:28 <cpressey> elliott: if you wanted to rewrite it yourself and debug what you wrote, yes
19:49:43 <ais523_> apparently, before 2004, they didn't have a ceremony, and the oath of allegiance was verified by a lawyer
19:49:49 <elliott> cpressey: oh come on, IDE routines have little room for failure
19:50:01 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.colorforth.com/ide.html
19:50:15 <ais523_> elliott: in something as complex as Visual Studio or Eclipse?
19:50:26 <elliott> COM loading is literally reading a file from disk to a memory location and then jmp
19:50:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, "Be born in North Ireland, and then go to Ireland and perform an action that only Irish citizens can perform." <-- that action being?
19:50:28 <elliott> ais523_: not that kind of IDE
19:50:29 <ais523_> (note: Vorpal may accidentally mistake this for a good joke)
19:50:44 <ais523_> Vorpal: being shot after sunset?
19:50:57 <Vorpal> ais523_, ... I don't get the joke here
19:50:59 <elliott> ais523_: [joke detector] BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP
19:51:06 <elliott> cpressey: so let's see, IDE reading is http://colorforth.com/ide.html super-simple, COM loading is literally reading a file from disk to a memory location and then jmp
19:51:07 <cpressey> elliott: you seem to think i'm arguing against rewriting it
19:51:10 <ais523_> (there's a city somewhere which still hasn't repealed a law which allegedly makes it legal to shoot Irishmen after sunset under certain conditions)
19:51:13 <elliott> cpressey: the potential for error is in FAT routines entirely :P
19:51:38 <elliott> ais523_: it's legal to shoot scots with a bow and arrow in northerly areas, I think
19:51:41 <elliott> something like that, anyway
19:51:50 <elliott> cpressey: LET'S REWRITE IT (you can do the hard parts)
19:52:02 <ais523_> presumably dating from the days when a) target practice was mandatory, and b) all english hated all scottsih
19:52:03 <elliott> did DOS use FAT12 or FAT16?
19:52:12 <ais523_> elliott: FAT16, I think, but I'm not sure
19:52:20 <ais523_> DOS 1 hardly had a filesystem at all, it didn't have directories
19:52:26 <ais523_> they were one of the innovations in DOS 2
19:52:36 <elliott> ais523_: is there any reason for FAT16 to exist apart from volumes above 32 megs?
19:52:53 <cpressey> elliott: there are no hard parts
19:52:54 <fizzie> ais523_: FAT16 was added around 3.something, because I remember having to split the 40-meg HD.
19:53:00 <elliott> ais523_: "Transparent encryption: Per-volume only with DR-DOS"
19:53:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: An example of such an action would be voting. Or asking for a passport.
19:53:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, you would become a citizen of Ireland *the instant you tried to vote*.
19:53:41 <ais523_> hmm, so attempting to vote in Ireland makes you Irish?
19:53:48 <Vorpal> elliott, would you really get away with it if you tried today (bow and arrow to shoot a scot)
19:53:49 <pikhq> ais523_: If you are entitled to Irish citizenship.
19:53:56 <Vorpal> presumably the law would finally be repelled then
19:54:06 <pikhq> ais523_: People born on the *island* of Ireland are entitled to such, for instance.
19:54:09 <ais523_> Vorpal: it's likely overridden by subsequent legislation
19:54:13 <cpressey> elliott: you KNOW i have to turn this thing into a web browser somehow
19:54:33 <ais523_> cpressey: then run JSMIPS in it, and a simulation of DOS on there?
19:55:06 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, you would become a citizen of Ireland *the instant you tried to vote*. <-- would that not cause some general confusion with the person supposed to register the vote?
19:55:15 <fizzie> There seems to have been an "initial FAT-16" from 3.0 to 3.2 which didn't actually increase the volume size limits (from 32 MB), just the maximum cluster count -- so smaller clusters = less space-wastage -- and then 3.31 introducing the real FAT-16 which can do up to 2 GB.
19:55:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: Well, it works somehow.
19:55:41 <pikhq> Oooh. Irish citizenship by descent can last forever *easily*.
19:55:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, why do they do this though?
19:56:16 <pikhq> Just a matter of notifying Ireland of each birth, and voila. Perpetual Irish citizenship.
19:57:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: ... Northern Ireland is effectively just Ireland, but happens to be in the UK.
19:57:36 <ais523_> pikhq: you could probably start a war with that statement
19:57:44 <ais523_> Vorpal: the situation with Northern Ireland is incredibly complicated
19:58:01 <Vorpal> ais523_, I gathered that much
19:58:08 <ais523_> there are very strong opinions in Northern Ireland about whether it should be part of Ireland or the UK, mostly split along religious lines
19:58:29 <Vorpal> ais523_, yes I know that much
19:58:36 <Vorpal> ais523_, we have newspapers here
19:58:43 <ais523_> it even used to erupt into civil war now and again, although it's been pretty peaceful for ages and everyone's getting along relatively nicely
19:58:50 <ais523_> Vorpal: which talk about Northern Ireland?
19:58:54 <elliott> <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/index.dsk
19:59:36 <ais523_> and there are something like five or six political parties representing a large range of viewpoints, which sit on both a special Northern Ireland assembly, and also the UK Government
19:59:38 <elliott> <ais523_> it even used to erupt into civil war now and again, although it's been pretty peaceful for ages and everyone's getting along relatively nicely
19:59:38 <Vorpal> ais523_, well, the war before, then not full war but still conflicts and nowdays usually just a few times every year some demonstrations causing general irritation
19:59:46 <elliott> and then MOLOTOV COCKTAILS
20:00:02 <fizzie> We only have Åland, who I think sort-of wanted to be part of Sweden, and vice-versa; and no-one actually bothers any more to get all emotional about it.
20:00:18 <pikhq> All because catholics and protestants find it hard to get along for... Stupid reasons.
20:00:23 <ais523_> (although it's a bit of a habit for the strongly anti-UK parties to refuse to attend the UK Houses of Parliament ever, even though they've technically been elected; people trying to work out coalition maths have to keep correcting for this)
20:00:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, not just sort of. They fully wanted it
20:00:42 <pikhq> Seriously, the whole thing with Ireland & Northern Ireland is just a demonstration of the power of stupidity.
20:00:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Only 96.2 % of them. :p
20:00:44 <ais523_> fizzie: Sweden wanted to be part of Åland?
20:00:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, they are still not part of EU though
20:00:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is quite a large majority!
20:01:13 <elliott> I note that Vorpal hasn't corrected fizzie yet.
20:01:20 <elliott> (HA HA FUCK YOU FIZZIE ENJOY YOUR CORRECTION)
20:01:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't notice the typo
20:01:32 <elliott> <ais523_> (although it's a bit of a habit for the strongly anti-UK parties to refuse to attend the UK Houses of Parliament ever, even though they've technically been elected; people trying to work out coalition maths have to keep correcting for this)
20:01:39 <elliott> did Sinn Faen or however you spell it ever actually get used?
20:01:58 <ais523_> they generally have around 3 seats, but never turn up as a point of principle
20:02:08 <ais523_> it seems that to be allowed in there you have to swear allegiance to the Queen, or something
20:02:15 <ais523_> one of these old formalities that's been around for ages
20:02:56 <ais523_> this technically disenfranchises the constituencies who vote for them, but somehow I don't think they care
20:03:19 <elliott> catseye: argh, how can you make me want to code 386 assembly?
20:03:37 <elliott> It shall be called DOS, the Dork's Operating System.
20:03:45 <elliott> Or the Dumbfounded Operating System.
20:03:48 <elliott> ais523_: what did DOS 1 run on? :p
20:03:55 <ais523_> also, use the binary-coded-decimal operations as much as possible
20:04:02 <ais523_> elliott: I don't actually know, I've only read the manual, not actually used it
20:04:36 <fizzie> DOS 1 ran on the IBM PC, of course.
20:05:03 <elliott> so I should write 8088 asm
20:05:14 <elliott> what was the first DOS not to run on the IBM PC, and what did it run on? :P
20:05:28 <elliott> ais523_: MS-DOS was a renamed form of 86-DOS — informally known as the Quick-and-dirty Operating System or Q-DOS [2] — owned by Seattle Computer Products, written by Tim Paterson[2]. Microsoft needed an operating system for the then-new Intel 8086 but it had none available, so it licensed 86-DOS and released a version of it as MS-DOS 1.0[2]. Development started in 1981, and MS-DOS 1.0 was released with the IBM PC in 1982[2].
20:05:42 <elliott> heh: [[Worried by possible legal problems, in June 1981 Microsoft made an offer to Rod Brock, the owner of Seattle Computer, to buy the rights for 86-DOS. An agreement to release all rights to the software was signed in June 1981. The total cost was $75,000.[3][n 2]]]
20:05:45 <elliott> Seattle Computer got fucked
20:06:20 <ais523_> elliott: hmm, what do you think of <http://www.groklaw.net/pdf2/OraGoogle-36-10.pdf>? it's a document filed by Oracle comparing source code in Oracle Java and Android Java
20:06:45 <ais523_> I'm trying to figure out if it's copying, or just coincidence of one obvious way to do it
20:07:01 <elliott> ais523_: I think that the a priori probability of Oracle being full of shit when attacking Google is very close to 1, based on Oracle being dickheads and Google not being nearly as dickheaded, and the fact that Sun never did it.
20:07:10 <fizzie> I'm not sure when (or even if) they dropped 8088 support; though you can't run all components (emm386, say) on pre-386.
20:07:17 <elliott> (Well not *that* close to 1, but you know.)
20:07:30 <ais523_> elliott: well, yes, but I'm still curious as to the point they're making there in the abstract
20:07:31 <elliott> fizzie: Probably just worth supporting 386, then, isn't it.
20:07:46 <ais523_> perhaps I'll send it to the other Java tutors as an exercise in detecting plagiarism
20:07:58 <elliott> ais523_: ugh, they didn't embed their monospaced font
20:08:11 <elliott> so it shows as the unreadable default PDF sans font for me, with added spacing to make it monospaced
20:08:14 <ais523_> it's Oracle, what do you expect?
20:08:22 <elliott> ais523_: I, literally, find ita lmost impossible to read this
20:08:40 <ais523_> hmm, it isn't even actually monospaced
20:08:45 <ais523_> the lines don't line up from one to the next
20:08:48 <ais523_> it's just pretending to be monospaced
20:09:18 <ais523_> it looks monospaced at a glance
20:09:24 <ais523_> but it actually isn't, the lines don't line up
20:09:38 <elliott> ais523_: my current thoughts on these: "it probably isn't copied, but even if it is, this shouldn't be copyrightable at all..."
20:09:48 <ais523_> oh, it's monospaced, but the tab isn't an integral number of characters
20:09:58 * ais523_ wonders what effect that has on elliott's tabs theory
20:10:09 <elliott> my theory is that i hate oracle
20:10:30 <fizzie> The indents look 4-chars here, but I haven't looked very closely.
20:10:46 <elliott> ais523_: heh, I just realised that my DOS wouldn't have a simple way to support universal piping
20:10:56 <elliott> because you'd basically rely on the shell to provide putchar and the like
20:11:17 <fizzie> Uh, or more correctly: the indents look like four characters in the right column, but not in the left one.
20:11:26 <ais523_> to me, the property names are looking more similar than I'd expect them to be by chance, but the code isn't
20:11:35 <ais523_> OTOH, you'd expect Oracle to pick the best example they could
20:11:41 <elliott> ais523_: the property names are probably mandated by Java
20:11:57 <ais523_> they're private, but I suppose they might be anyway
20:11:59 <elliott> ais523_: I mean, the library is standardised...
20:12:04 <elliott> ais523_: well, they're probably listed in the spec
20:12:43 <fizzie> Anything that has a directly named public getter will at least cause identical names for the underlying private properties.
20:12:48 <elliott> anyone know a nice 86 assembler? 386 or 8086 or whatever, i don't care :p
20:13:00 <elliott> nice and simple. also, simple
20:13:07 <elliott> i don't need executable format support
20:13:49 <fizzie> There was a rather large x86 assembler comparison article somewhere, but I didn't save the URL anywhere.
20:13:53 <fizzie> I'd just go with NASM.
20:14:15 <fizzie> It's not like it's slow, and you can just ignore the features you don't like; but if for ideological reasons that's no go...
20:15:25 <fizzie> NASM runs in DOS just fine; it's what I used back then, there.
20:15:29 <ais523_> elliott: use the Borland assembler
20:15:41 <elliott> fizzie: No, but, I want DOS philosophy!
20:15:45 <elliott> ais523_: does that even have mnemonics?
20:15:48 <ais523_> you can write asm straight into memory, then save the resulting executable as a file
20:15:54 <fizzie> Well, I have done a bit of TASM, but that's really not simple.
20:16:00 <ais523_> it's how I've written ASM before now
20:16:08 <fizzie> (Also commercial, of course.)
20:16:13 <ais523_> it's a pain to edit if you want to insert lines, though, you have to move the whole block of code by hand
20:16:20 <ais523_> and even though it has mnemonics, it doesn't have labels
20:16:21 <elliott> ais523_: maybe i'll implement the DEBUG.COM assembly language in C to use on the host
20:16:28 <elliott> ais523_: and then provide my own DEBUG.COM-alike for the OS
20:16:36 <pikhq> I'm reasonably certain you could run DOS 7 on an original IBM PC.
20:16:56 <elliott> Someone please tell me FreeDOS supports x86-64.
20:17:12 <pikhq> elliott: DOS programs can be x86-64 only, yes.
20:17:38 <pikhq> The OS itself should still run on a basic IBM PC, but programs have no such restriction.
20:17:42 <elliott> ais523_: hmm, does 8086 have the long/far/whatever pointer architecture?
20:18:01 <elliott> ais523_: what's the oldest thing that doesn't? :p
20:18:09 <elliott> I am more than a bit allergic to anything that has more than one kind of pointer.
20:18:13 <ais523_> a long pointer can point to a different segment, a short pointer points to the current segment
20:18:36 <pikhq> elliott: Microprocessor or CPU architecture in general?
20:18:48 <ais523_> and a far pointer is identical to a long pointer, except arithmetic operations on it are more expensive to handle overflow from one segment to the 4096th-next correctly
20:18:54 <elliott> but if you give something unhelpful i'll ask microprocessor :)
20:19:01 <elliott> *i'll ask for microprocessor :)
20:19:24 <pikhq> I'm inclined to go with EDVAC.
20:19:32 <fizzie> If you mean the first x86 that you can run in a (mostly) non-segmented way, that'd be 386 in protected mode; if you mean something else, then something else.
20:19:47 <elliott> fizzie: But, but I want real mode!
20:19:58 <ais523_> (correct far pointer overflow: 0x0001FFFF + 3 = 0x01010002)
20:20:01 <fizzie> Then you get segments and offsets and silly pointers.
20:20:01 <pikhq> elliott: Counting things the 8086 is derived *from*?
20:20:11 <ais523_> fizzie: realmode always has both near and far poitners
20:20:14 <elliott> fizzie: But I don't wanna.
20:20:20 <Vorpal> <elliott> <Vorpal> gas! <-- afaik gas doesn't do real-mode
20:20:23 <pikhq> elliott: Butbutbut 4-bit CPU!
20:20:41 <elliott> Vorpal: of course it does, how do you think you get into protected mode?
20:20:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, which one was that?
20:20:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: The Intel 4004.
20:20:59 <Vorpal> elliott, using some hand written machine instructions
20:21:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: The first microprocessor.
20:21:05 <ais523_> wait, am I muddling far and huge?
20:21:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, 4 bits... that is a very limited address space
20:21:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Gas has a .code16 directive nowadays; I don't think it's very real-mode-oriented, though.
20:21:24 <elliott> Vorpal: you can easily get into protected mode with gas
20:21:31 <ais523_> anyway, there are three sorts of pointer (16-bit, "32"-bit, "32"-bit with arithmetic corrected), the names keep changing around inconsistently
20:21:49 <pikhq> elliott: gas uses a bizarre hack for that.
20:22:08 <elliott> "MS-DOS Debug can only access conventional memory,[2] which is the first 640K in an IBM PC."
20:22:22 <ais523_> elliott: 10 segments is all you need!
20:22:28 <elliott> ais523_: the author of DEBUG also wrote EDLIN <3
20:22:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, it is very very limited.
20:22:44 <elliott> oh, and he wrote 86-DOS :P
20:22:47 <ais523_> elliott: they're very similar programs
20:23:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, did it have banks or such?
20:23:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: It was a Harvard architecture.
20:23:24 <elliott> ais523_: now he races rally cars, probably to forget about DOS
20:23:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, only helps a tiny bit
20:24:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: Aaah. It had a wider address space, but 4-bit words.
20:24:22 <elliott> Vorpal: it was the first (commercial) microprocessor
20:24:26 <elliott> Vorpal: and also the first CPU on a chip
20:24:30 <fizzie> I don't think very many "8-bit" processors go with an 8-bit address space either.
20:24:58 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/KL_National_INS4004.jpg
20:25:45 <fizzie> Anyway, what's this about a bizarre hack for going to protected mode with Gas? At least Linux header.S looks like regular 16-bit code with .code16, and I don't see why you couldn't continue all the way up to protected mode. (It does do the horrible C + gcc + .code16gcc trick, but that's beside the point here.)
20:25:47 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but the space waste back then was utterly silly
20:26:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: It doesn't waste space if you just make all the corresponding number range limits smaller.
20:26:56 <fizzie> (And of course there's the trivial conversion to-fro decimal.)
20:27:00 <elliott> So is any retro hackery doomed to segment hell?
20:27:07 <elliott> I don't understand segments and I don't want to.
20:27:16 <fizzie> They're not *that* strange.
20:27:18 <pikhq> elliott: Segments are actually incredibly simple.
20:27:27 <elliott> Okay fine, explain segments to me in a non-stupid way.
20:27:33 <fizzie> Just remember that 0000:0010 is also 0001:0000, that's all.
20:28:02 <elliott> ais523_: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/SealGUI.png 32-bit dos gui
20:28:04 <ais523_> it's very simple, you have 8 hex digits
20:28:08 <ais523_> the last 4 is the number of 1s
20:28:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, overlapping segments?
20:28:14 <ais523_> the first 4 is the number of 16s
20:28:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's what x86 real mode is.
20:28:22 <elliott> ais523_: impressive (awful)
20:28:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: (segment << 4) + offset, with 16-bit segments and offsets.
20:28:40 <elliott> ais523_: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/QubeOS.png 32-bit multitasking FreeDOS GUI
20:29:16 <elliott> pikhq: Wait. IDE routines wouldn't need to worry about segments. Nor would FAT routines.
20:29:23 <elliott> pikhq: Would even COM loading need to worry about it?
20:29:49 <pikhq> elliott: In effect, the 8086 has a 20-bit address space. As an optimization, you can use only 16 bits of address, with the rest coming from the segment register. The normal address is achieved from (segment << 4) + 16-bit-address.
20:29:50 <fizzie> elliott: It does have the nice feature that two far pointers to the same byte in memory may compare unequal if they use a different equivalent representation.
20:30:12 <elliott> pikhq: is the segment register initialised to anything?
20:30:15 <pikhq> elliott: As a de-optimisation, when you want a larger pointer, instead of just using a normal address you just give the segment in addition to the 16-bit address.
20:30:23 <fizzie> elliott: If you're willing to restrict yourself to 64k of memory, you don't need to consider segments at all.
20:30:29 <pikhq> elliott: At what point?
20:30:36 <pikhq> elliott: By DOS? By the BIOS? By the CPU?
20:30:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, some mmap() tricks could have that effect on a normal OS as well
20:30:43 <elliott> pikhq: my OS load, taht is
20:30:45 <elliott> fizzie: Well, COMs are 64k minus a few bytes, right?
20:30:55 <pikhq> elliott: Pretty sure the segment registers are 0.
20:31:01 <ais523_> elliott: the entire COM is blitted into memory, in a single segment
20:31:05 <pikhq> elliott: There's a code and a data segment register.
20:31:10 <ais523_> and cs, ds, es, ss are all set to that segment
20:31:11 <elliott> so I don't even need to worry about segments :)
20:31:21 <ais523_> it starts at 0x100 in the segment
20:31:27 <elliott> ais523_: hmm, did people run out of .COM space often?
20:31:31 <ais523_> the first 0x100 is used for CP/M compatibility
20:31:32 <pikhq> Oh, and a stack segment register and a I-don't-remember register...
20:31:39 <ais523_> elliott: I did on occasion
20:31:46 <elliott> ais523_: did people use the first 0x100 bytes?
20:31:59 <ais523_> probably, so long as they didn't need the CP/M emulation
20:32:01 <elliott> ais523_: i mean, i have less than zero CP/M compatibility :)
20:32:05 <pikhq> elliott: There's a reason that .EXE was invented.
20:32:12 <elliott> ais523_: and DOS compatibility for that matter
20:32:14 <ais523_> here's a bit of amazingness, if you have a COM file that is just a RET command
20:32:16 <fizzie> (At least I've always assumed E in ES is for Extra.)
20:32:23 <elliott> ais523_: so I'm just wondering if loading stuff at 0 would be ok for programs
20:32:26 <ais523_> running it pops the 0 that DOS adds to the stack, so jumps to location 0
20:32:26 <elliott> i mean, not those programs
20:32:32 <elliott> does it restrict any hackery?
20:32:35 <elliott> pikhq: yeah -- bloated software :D
20:32:37 <ais523_> then that contains the INT command to exit the program
20:32:54 <ais523_> elliott: well, the program has to load at 0x100 in order for jumps to hit the right location
20:33:00 <elliott> ais523_: wait, why would DOS push0 to the stack?
20:33:05 <elliott> <ais523_> elliott: well, the program has to load at 0x100 in order for jumps to hit the right location <-- yes, but i have no compatibility
20:33:06 <ais523_> elliott: because otherwise that wouldn't work
20:33:12 <elliott> i'm just asking if it opened up any fun trickery
20:33:16 <elliott> ais523_: for that sole reason? :D
20:33:31 <ais523_> I exploited that 0 in SUUDA
20:33:40 <elliott> ais523_: hmm, DOS couldn't run a program inside another program, right?
20:33:45 <elliott> so exiting a program was basically "jmp shell"
20:33:45 <ais523_> blanking registers by popping it into them, then pushing it back
20:33:55 <ais523_> elliott: it could system() style, but not fork() style
20:34:02 <elliott> ais523_: hm, really? interesting
20:34:06 <ais523_> just by picking an unused segment and putting it there
20:34:11 <fizzie> DOS has a separate "terminate and stay resident" thing, though.
20:34:12 <ais523_> DOS handled adjusting the segment registers
20:34:15 <elliott> ais523_: what if you ran out of segments? :D
20:34:20 <ais523_> Vorpal: self uu-decoding applications
20:34:27 <elliott> ais523_: surely that was in a relatively recent DOS
20:34:31 <ais523_> much like the concept of self-unzipping applications
20:34:43 <ais523_> elliott: well, I wrote it with reference to a manual that covered DOS 1,2,3
20:34:51 <ais523_> and I think it was a DOS 1 compatible prorgam
20:34:56 <elliott> ais523_: i'm trying to get a 3-page plus CMD os here!
20:35:10 <Vorpal> elliott, don't go for DOS then
20:35:17 <elliott> Vorpal: well i'm not implementing DOS
20:35:28 <elliott> the Dork's/Dumbfounding Operating System
20:35:34 <ais523_> if you want existing .COM files to run, load them at 0x100 just so that hardcoded JMP statements go to the right locations
20:35:39 <elliott> ais523_: hmm, question: what does 0x4D 0x5A do in x86?
20:35:54 <elliott> ais523_: existing COM files won't run, they'll try all sorts of silly interrupts
20:36:05 <pikhq> elliott: Well, newer DOSes might well try loading the program into high memory (ZOMG 32BIT)...
20:36:24 <ais523_> elliott: IIRC, crashes the program
20:36:31 <fizzie> elliott: dec bp, pop dx.
20:36:35 <ais523_> or at least, something implausible and undefined
20:36:38 <elliott> ais523_: (it's the header for DOS executables)
20:36:47 <elliott> MZ, initials of Mark Zbikowski, designer
20:36:49 <ais523_> I know, part of the reason it was picked was that nobody was likely to have used it deliberately
20:36:55 <ais523_> the other reason was that it was the person's initials
20:37:01 <ais523_> but they happened to not be particularly meaningful
20:37:07 <elliott> ais523_: what about EH? :p
20:37:15 * ais523_ remembers that SUUDA executables always started XP_W
20:37:19 <ais523_> elliott: disassemble it, see what it does
20:37:28 <fizzie> elliott: inc bp, dec ax.
20:37:30 <ais523_> most capital letters are stack manipulation commands, IIRC
20:37:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you could use gdb or objdump?
20:37:47 <ais523_> not by default, you can run it but it doesn't come with it
20:38:01 <ais523_> really, there are loads of disassemblers around, thoguh
20:38:03 <fizzie> elliott: Probably not at the beginning of a program, no.
20:38:10 <Vorpal> elliott, well objdump would work just fine
20:38:11 <ais523_> just echo -n EH > eh.com, then disassemble it
20:38:20 <elliott> Vorpal: if you like using objdump...
20:38:28 <Vorpal> elliott, nothing wrong with it?
20:38:33 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ echo -n EH | ndisasm /dev/stdin
20:38:43 <elliott> I could sprunge objump --help now, but I won't.
20:38:50 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:39:00 <ais523_> elliott: the trick with objdump is, you only use one of the infinity options at a time
20:39:05 * elliott tries to convince objdump to read COMs
20:39:07 <Vorpal> <elliott> I could sprunge objump --help now, but I won't. <-- I know it, could be better, but nothing majorly wrong
20:39:07 <fizzie> (In related news, "disassemble stdin" is a bit silly command.)
20:39:13 <ais523_> so it doesn't take too much scanning to figure out the one you need
20:39:26 <elliott> it thinks eh.com is truncated, so clearly i need to inform it of the format
20:39:31 <ais523_> hmm, inc bp dec ax is just changing uninitialised registers to other uninitialised values
20:39:55 <ais523_> (actually, I wouldn't be surprised if bp at least was initialised explicitly, and ax had a set value by coincidence due to the implementation of invoking programs)
20:40:01 <elliott> Vorpal: care to tell me how? :p
20:40:23 * elliott wonders how Vorpal interpreted that
20:41:03 <fizzie> elliott: http://p.zem.fi/objdump-disasm
20:41:05 <Vorpal> elliott, -b and -m iirc
20:41:24 <elliott> Vorpal: my objdump has neither option
20:41:28 <fizzie> I'm not sure how to make it treat it as 16-bit code, though.
20:41:43 <fizzie> (Also it can't read /dev/stdin.)
20:41:50 <fizzie> (It's "not an ordinary file".)
20:41:52 <elliott> ok, now how do I get it to output asm code in the sane syntax
20:41:53 <Vorpal> objdump -m i8086 -b binary -D tmp.com
20:41:54 <ais523_> elliott: objdump -i gives a list of supported input formats, but none of them seem to be DOS .COM, at least on this Linux system
20:41:56 <Vorpal> elliott, that works for me
20:41:57 <elliott> fizzie: i love how gnu tools do that
20:42:03 <elliott> "it's not an ordinary file! aieee!"
20:42:06 <elliott> ais523_: well, .COM has no format
20:42:13 <elliott> Vorpal: still outputs in the bad format
20:42:17 <Vorpal> ais523_, .com = binary
20:42:21 <Vorpal> elliott, what bad format?
20:42:26 <ais523_> Vorpal says "binary", that seems like a plausible name (this objdump doesn't support it)
20:42:44 * elliott tries to remove the other cruft it outputs, gives up, fizzie: what was that one you used called?
20:42:52 <fizzie> ais523_: "-b binary -m i386 -M intel" gives intel-syntax 32-bit x86 asm out of a binary file.
20:42:58 <Vorpal> elliott, --help and see -M
20:43:03 <fizzie> elliott: ndisasm, it's part of nasm.
20:43:09 <Vorpal> elliott, supposedly there is -M intel-mnemonic
20:43:13 <elliott> ais523_: do you think it'd be possible to write a DOS-ish kernel entirely with printable? :)
20:43:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've said "-M intel" twice already.
20:43:29 <ais523_> elliott: obviously, SUUDA made /arbitrary executables/ printable
20:43:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, he presumably ignores you
20:43:41 <elliott> i like how Vorpal thinks fizzie was saying i didn't notice it
20:43:47 <elliott> rather than fizzie saying that Vorpal didn't notice it
20:43:53 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, ndisasm is helpful if you want to bother tinkering with offsets and a complete lack of knowledge of the object structure.
20:43:56 <ais523_> actually, I used it to make a simple text-printing loop with appended data printable
20:43:59 <ais523_> to make it true uudecoding
20:44:00 <elliott> also: assuming i'd /ignore fizzie, despite him being high on the list of coolest and least annoying people here
20:44:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't notice it either. but nor did you I think
20:44:19 <elliott> <ais523_> elliott: obviously, SUUDA made /arbitrary executables/ printable
20:44:24 <elliott> ais523_: does it work without an OS underneath, though?
20:44:27 <ais523_> (and it wasn't really uucode; to keep things simple, it operated via a 6-bits-2-bits encoding)
20:44:28 <elliott> you'd need that for a kernel
20:44:30 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well, that's exactly what is wanted here: direct disassembly of sequences of bytes.
20:44:38 <elliott> I saw no reason to reply, you just kept going on.
20:44:42 <ais523_> elliott: it would have done, there were no system calls except the actual output of the letters
20:44:46 <ais523_> and that bit could easily have been changed
20:44:48 <elliott> fizzie: ndisasm also accepts -
20:45:03 <elliott> fizzie: also ndisasm <(echo -n foo) :P
20:45:11 <Vorpal> ais523_, got a link to SUUDA?
20:45:17 <Vorpal> yeah that was the spelling
20:45:20 <ais523_> Vorpal: not on this computer
20:45:30 <ais523_> let me see if the wireless is working on the other one yet
20:45:32 <elliott> fizzie: now all I need is the documentation of a mnemonic to appear to the right of the diassembly :)
20:45:41 <Vorpal> ais523_, you could easily type it over from there :P
20:46:20 <Vorpal> elliott, download intel pdfs?
20:46:28 <ais523_> really, I should have designed the thing to ignore newlines
20:46:31 <elliott> Vorpal: those are huge and confusing, i just want a one-line summary
20:46:33 <Vorpal> elliott, or AMD, they have better docs
20:46:38 <Vorpal> elliott, AMD docs are better
20:46:52 <Vorpal> <elliott> mov a, b -- move b to a
20:46:55 <ais523_> (note: it's self-modifying code, because none of the jump instructions happen to be printable)
20:47:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, nasm /used/ to have a fantastic one in appendix B of the docs.
20:47:38 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but see the comment
20:47:40 <cpressey> < elliott> I'm totally DOSing here.
20:47:42 <Phantom_Hoover> But they stripped it out at some point around when they added 64-bit support.
20:47:44 <Vorpal> elliott, you wrote "move b to a"
20:47:49 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the AT&T order
20:47:54 <ais523_> hmm, it's a bit long to retype
20:48:01 <ais523_> really, I should have written it in asm
20:48:03 <cpressey> which is an 8-line BAT file that I wrote, which calls DEBUG.COM
20:48:09 <elliott> in Intel, "mov a, b" is "a = b"
20:48:20 <Phantom_Hoover> It used to be complete enough that you could basically hand-assemble with only appendix B, but now it just gives a table of instructions with no documentation.
20:48:26 <Vorpal> elliott, but the comment is written as AT&T order
20:48:30 <Vorpal> elliott, the comment itself
20:48:37 <cpressey> elliott: http://catseye.tc/projects/sp_asm-1998.0716.zip
20:48:58 <Vorpal> elliott, yes writing it intel order would be "move to a from b"
20:48:59 <elliott> cpressey: you crashed my archiver! /me unzips manually
20:49:22 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, and AT&T syntax is closer to English
20:49:41 <elliott> cpressey: non-zipbomb, interesting :p
20:49:49 <elliott> Vorpal: so english is a nice basis for a programming language? enjoy your Perl
20:50:04 <elliott> cpressey: do you strictly have to TYPE THE PROGRAM IN UPPERCASE
20:50:05 <cpressey> what we need is an IRC-friendlier asm syntax, for EgoBat/HackEgo
20:50:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I prefer Plain English ;)
20:50:16 <cpressey> elliott: not strictly but THIS IS DOS SO YES
20:50:16 <elliott> cpressey: it already does *gas magick*
20:50:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, AT&T syntax is such a horrible syntax for multiple reasons which are apparent to all those of us with even a molecule of sense.
20:50:28 <elliott> cpressey: wow, asm.bat is terrible
20:50:35 <ais523_> but here's a printable Hello, World: XP_W^VH%35%DCPYXPH%=5%=CP[]UM#(UX%??t&* * * * ZR 1() !GFF=\ouU0_0<0^3L1L0^292L1^1I2L0Y1D1\3R3P0:031101013A0D0o313p21030D1J2@@A5
20:50:39 <elliott> cpressey: it prints even when it works! that's so ununix! ;)
20:50:40 <ais523_> I hope I typed that correctly...
20:50:49 <elliott> ais523_: if you didn't, nobody will begrudge you, dude :P
20:50:59 <ais523_> the A5 at the end is my initials
20:51:09 <elliott> ais523_: is it there for any reason?
20:51:22 <ais523_> yep, needed to pad one byte to make room for the initial stack even if memory was almost full
20:51:30 <ais523_> so that it crashes noisly rather than silently
20:51:35 <elliott> cpressey: is empty.com one of those files that existed in every directory?
20:51:35 <ais523_> the @@ before that is a string terminator
20:51:40 <elliott> oh, no, it comes with spasm
20:51:47 <cpressey> elliott: iirc empty.com is required for it to work
20:51:48 <elliott> it's just zeroes, you zany flitwick
20:51:53 <cpressey> i think shelta has something like that
20:52:00 <elliott> anyone have a dos disk for me?
20:52:11 <elliott> <ais523_> but that's *illegal!*
20:52:18 <cpressey> oh yeah. empty.com is the "buffer" into which the binary is written
20:52:30 <elliott> cpressey: it runs debug on the new com
20:52:40 <elliott> cpressey: basically, your program makes an empty com file
20:52:42 <ais523_> did mistype it, I just compared hashes
20:52:43 <cpressey> well, maybe it copies it to use it as a base
20:52:45 <elliott> then does debug com <spa >log
20:52:51 <elliott> why it doesn't just print out the log is beyond me
20:53:07 <cpressey> there must be *some* reason (note: this is fallacious)
20:53:26 <elliott> cpressey: it does, but does debug really require a padded executable?
20:53:33 <elliott> ais523_: quick, what was the last great DOS?
20:54:19 <elliott> cpressey: quick, what was the last great DOS?
20:54:37 <ais523_> elliott: you could try in DOSBox
20:54:43 <ais523_> and hopefully find the typo
20:54:52 <elliott> ais523_: i could, but how boring is that? also i was going to try debug, not your silly thing, but ok :P
20:55:10 <fizzie> DOS 6.22 was pretty popular; it's the last pre-win9x one.
20:55:23 <elliott> fizzie: "the last X" is rarely "the last great X"
20:55:35 <fizzie> I don't think it's ever been especially "great".
20:55:52 <cpressey> elliott: the last great DOS was Windows 3.11
20:55:53 <elliott> by which i mean my dos ofc
20:55:58 <elliott> cpressey: my other toyota is a car
20:56:03 <elliott> ...wow, that was surprisingly awesome
20:56:17 <fizzie> Well, DOS Shell appeared in 4.0, and everyone agrees that it's very awesome.
20:56:24 <elliott> ais523_: for a typo'd program, it sure executes properly
20:56:45 <elliott> fizzie: what definition of awesome? :P
20:56:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, what did DOS use before that?
20:57:06 <elliott> ais523_: newline problem when hashing?
20:57:08 <ais523_> stupid tcsh was stripping exclamation marks inside single-quoted strings
20:57:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, why not PC-DOS or such?
20:57:23 <ais523_> that doesn't even make sense, to anyone who knows how UNIX shells should work...
20:57:26 <ais523_> elliott: not my computer...
20:57:50 <elliott> ais523_: in its defence, try [[echo "!x"]] in bash sometime
20:57:53 <elliott> ok, that's double-quoted, but still
20:58:07 <elliott> ais523_: also: note how it gets expanded *in the freaking command history*
20:58:09 <Vorpal> elliott, bash doesn't do that in single quotes!
20:58:12 <elliott> ais523_: so that you can't fix it
20:58:13 <Vorpal> and you can turn it off
20:58:36 <ais523_> anyway, all this needs now is an unzip algorithm and a shorter frontend
20:58:44 <ais523_> and it might actually be a useful method of packaging DOS executables
20:59:03 <elliott> things that dosbox fails at: directories changing while it's running
20:59:11 <ais523_> elliott: indeed, in multiple ways
20:59:12 <elliott> it doesn't notice new files are there even if you run a program...
20:59:16 <ais523_> it causes crazy timestamp skew
20:59:20 <elliott> (such as "hello2" just now)
20:59:27 <ais523_> because it's not running fullspeed, so its clock gets out of synch with the filesystem around it
20:59:46 <elliott> ais523_: i think dosbox is pretty badly designed
20:59:47 <Vorpal> elliott, why not use dosemu instead
20:59:53 <elliott> Vorpal: who knows if that will work?
21:00:01 <Vorpal> elliott, well it might
21:00:07 <ais523_> it does work, but with so many UI frustrations you wish for something better
21:00:37 <elliott> ais523_: I used to use it to play Monkey Island and ScummVM is so much better it isn't even funny.
21:00:51 <elliott> cool, dosemu uses freedos.
21:00:52 <ais523_> elliott: I use it for compiling C-ITNERCAL
21:01:12 <elliott> alt-tabbing into it makes it press the tab key in the dos
21:01:35 <Vorpal> elliott, no need to echo him
21:01:41 <ais523_> Vorpal: it's still not particularly awesome
21:01:44 <elliott> ais523_: i only typed those exact words because you did, tbh
21:01:57 <elliott> sometimes Vorpal needs a nuclear holocaust of "not really"
21:02:00 <cpressey> |goto print It's not hard to pronounce ITNERCAL
21:02:00 <storkbot> cpressey: It's not hard to pronounce ITNERCAL
21:02:11 <storkbot> ais523_: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
21:02:12 <storkbot> elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
21:02:35 <ais523_> hmm, what lang is ?SYNTAX ERROR from?
21:02:54 <cpressey> BASIC and FORTRAN will always be capitalized in my heart.
21:03:03 <cpressey> ais523_: Um... Applesoft, at least
21:03:13 <ais523_> there are hundreds, maybe thousands
21:03:24 <elliott> cpressey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran#Code_examples the reasonability of this code example actually scares me
21:03:27 <cpressey> I'm pretty sure not just Applesoft
21:03:28 <ais523_> and its beautiful error message "Mistake"
21:03:30 <elliott> it manages to look nicer than C
21:03:39 <ais523_> which actually meant something along the lines of "Unknown identifier"
21:03:49 <elliott> ais523_: it implicitly makes all bugs into features
21:03:55 <cpressey> ais523_: I... may have to steal that one
21:04:01 * elliott looks at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran#Code_examples again, shivers
21:04:07 <ais523_> it had others too, but that was the most memorable one
21:04:20 <elliott> although i'm not exactly sure what "write (*,'(a,g12.4)')" means
21:04:44 <elliott> cpressey: I like how spasm programs need to end with Q
21:05:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I find " real, dimension(:), allocatable :: points" a bit weird but apart from that it is indeed very straight-forward
21:05:12 <cpressey> eventually I'd like you to be able to configure the error messages storkbot'll send you, so you can reign in the annoyance
21:05:50 <ais523_> elliott: FORTRAN (and the newer variant Fortran) are actually dying nowadays, due to C99 replacing them
21:05:55 <elliott> Vorpal: dimension(:) obviously means "1D array" or so
21:05:59 <elliott> allocatable obviously means dynamically allocated
21:06:12 <elliott> I'd expect dimension(::) for a 2D array, or something
21:06:13 <ais523_> in fact, at least one (possibly more) C99 feature exists only for the purpose of tempting FORTRAN users to use C99 instead
21:06:18 <cpressey> elliott: yea SP\ASM is fantastic awful
21:06:25 <ais523_> elliott: the restrict keyword
21:06:25 <elliott> cpressey: i dunno, i quite like it, i mean
21:06:29 <elliott> cpressey: you could have documentation after q
21:06:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't say it was unintelligible. Just weird
21:06:39 <ais523_> compare the C99 types of memcpy and memmove, that makes it pretty obvious what it does
21:06:45 <ais523_> (if you didn't know already)
21:06:50 <elliott> ais523_: BUT THAT'S LIKE OPTIMISATION DUDE
21:06:51 <cpressey> well, "fantasticawful" should maybe be a newspeakish protmanteau for what i mean
21:06:53 <elliott> YOUCAN'T INSULT OUR OPTIMISATION
21:06:54 <ais523_> but it lets C optimise to the level that Fortran was optimising
21:07:17 <elliott> cpressey: what dos did you write sp\asm on? :p
21:07:35 <elliott> cpressey: Son, I am disappoint.
21:07:40 <cpressey> so like DOS 7.0 technically or something
21:07:49 <ais523_> elliott: fun question: in Fortran, assuming rand() is a function that returns a random float, what's the value of rand()/rand()?
21:08:09 <elliott> ais523_: if it was something random, you wouldn't have said that :)
21:08:10 <ais523_> textually identical subexpressions are only evaluated once
21:08:19 -!- MF_Williams has joined.
21:08:27 <elliott> i mean, i actually do like it, but moreso in a language without rand()
21:08:48 -!- augur has joined.
21:08:50 <ais523_> Fortran seems to have a culture of doing unsafe optimisations and making them the users's fault if they break things
21:09:07 <elliott> and was last released in late 2000
21:09:17 <Vorpal> elliott, was 8.0 for ME?
21:09:20 <elliott> Vorpal: presumably with Windows Me
21:09:32 <Vorpal> elliott, hah a few seconds before you :P
21:09:32 <fizzie> ais523_: I'm tempted to ask about if rand() happens to return 0.
21:09:32 <elliott> Version 8.0 (WinME) - Integrated drivers for faster Windows loading.
21:09:33 <elliott> Version 8.0 (WinXP) - DOS boot disks created by XP and later contain files from WinME. The internal DOS is still 5.0
21:09:39 <elliott> Vorpal: still 5.0 inside :)
21:09:46 <ais523_> fizzie: I don't actually know
21:09:46 <elliott> 6 appears to just be 5 + software
21:09:50 <elliott> Vorpal: but with long file names, fat32, etc.
21:09:59 <elliott> MF_Williams: do you know what this channel is about?
21:10:04 <ais523_> MF_Williams: you'll either get used to it in a while, or use something else, it's not a big issue
21:10:40 <elliott> "Below you'll find several different bootable CD images in ISO format for MS-DOS."
21:10:49 <elliott> MF_Williams: this channel is about esoteric programming languages
21:10:54 <elliott> MF_Williams: out of curiosity, what made you think it was about linux?
21:10:59 -!- MF_Williams has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:11:06 <ais523_> looks like we'll never know
21:11:11 <elliott> ais523_: DOS3.3.iso (1.6 MB)
21:11:15 <elliott> ais523_: discuss how utterly wrong this is
21:11:21 <ais523_> elliott: that's a very small CD...
21:11:35 <elliott> MS-DOS 4.x - includes a graphical/mouse interface.
21:11:36 <elliott> Version 4.01 (OEM) - IBM patched Version 4.00 before Microsoft released it.
21:11:47 <fizzie> elliott: You say "and software" so disparagingly: it's not just any software! There's DBLSPACE (well, DRVSPACE after the... unpleasantness), the best way to break a win3.1 installation.
21:11:49 <ais523_> and really, it's the BIOS that determines whether to boot off a floppy or CD
21:11:57 <ais523_> fizzie: oh, I remember that
21:11:57 <elliott> fizzie: bah, 5.0 represent!
21:12:10 <elliott> fizzie: it included the full-screen editor and NO ONLINE HELP/DISK COMPRESSION/ANTIVIRUS
21:12:15 <ais523_> what sort of compression software compresses parts of different files together sometimes, then has editing one of them also edit the other?
21:12:20 <elliott> fizzie: also, 6.21 removed DBLSPACE
21:12:39 <ais523_> the documentation suggested copying and deleting both files in order to un-crosslink them
21:12:43 <fizzie> elliott: Yes, but 6.22 brought back DRVSPACE.
21:12:57 <elliott> fizzie: I don't suppose you have a floppy marked MS-DOS 5.0?
21:13:28 <ais523_> hmm, I visit microsoft.com with Firefox on Linux, and it advertises IE8 to me
21:13:37 <elliott> never mind, i've found 5.0
21:13:40 <ais523_> and then /that/ page advertises Windows 7 to me, so that I can run IE8
21:13:42 <fizzie> I don't think so; I have images of some different 6.x versions. There might be a physical floppy somewhere, but no drives.
21:13:58 <fizzie> 6.22 came on three floppies too, I think.
21:14:00 <elliott> dear xfce: it is not your right to put files in my ~ that do not start with a .
21:14:12 <cpressey> i sometimes think people come on irc actually expecting to not converse
21:14:15 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ rm -rf Music/ Pictures/ Public/ Templates/ Videos/ Downloads/ Documents/ Desktop/
21:14:24 <elliott> and Desktop magically reappears
21:15:15 <ais523_> wow, crosslinks are such an ancient problem that even via Google I can't find a description of what they are, any more
21:15:29 <ais523_> elliott: rename it to lowercase by mistake, I did that once
21:15:46 <elliott> [[Yes, the "Desktop" directory will still be there, but it won't be displayed. You're not forced to use it. Just remove it's contents and it'll be nothing more than an empty directory.]]
21:15:53 <ais523_> Ubuntu decided that as it couldn't find /home/ais523/Desktop, what it should really use instead was /home/ais523/
21:15:56 <elliott> what is it with these morons thinking that ~ means desktop-environment-share?
21:15:58 <ais523_> which was an interesting decision
21:16:08 <elliott> ais523_: interesting, that works!
21:16:18 <elliott> ais523_: next step: mv desktop /dev/null :)
21:16:23 <ais523_> elliott: it blows up on your next boot
21:16:24 <Vorpal> <ais523_> wow, crosslinks are such an ancient problem that even via Google I can't find a description of what they are, any more <-- any idea of what they used to be?
21:16:31 <elliott> if I hardlink Desktop to /dev/null...
21:16:33 <ais523_> Vorpal: a sort of filesystem problem
21:16:37 <elliott> ais523_: ugh, no, Desktop just reappeared
21:16:47 <ais523_> elliott: can you even hardlink to a character special?
21:16:53 <elliott> ln: creating hard link `Desktop/null' => `/dev/null': Invalid cross-device link
21:17:05 <Vorpal> ais523_, any more details?
21:17:07 <ais523_> elliott: you could mknod a /dev/null clone there
21:17:07 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ln -s /dev/null Desktop
21:17:14 <elliott> ais523_: Desktop is a directory, think about this for a second and tell me why
21:17:19 <ais523_> Vorpal: not really; they tended to happen on compressed drives, but I'm not sure why
21:17:40 <ais523_> elliott: are you referring to the fact that you created the link /in/ the directory?
21:17:41 <fizzie> Win95 came on 13 floppies; something like Office came on an absurd number of 'em (>20?).
21:17:48 <elliott> "For info on modifying the XDG_DESKTOP_DIR, see http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/xdg-user-dirs . All of this is set in the default xinitrc for Xfce, located @ /etc/xdg/xfce4/xinitrc"
21:17:59 <ais523_> Vorpal: also, you could fix them by hand by copying both linked files, then deleting the originals, then renaming them back into place
21:18:23 <ais523_> this gives some clue as to what the error actually was, but not enough
21:18:35 <fizzie> ais523_: I DBLSPACEd my win3.x system disk, and it made win.com just show the logo, eat a little chunk off the corner, then hang.
21:19:02 <ais523_> aha, here we go: http://cquirke.mvps.org/9x/scandisk.htm#Crosslink
21:19:23 <elliott> ais523_: you put everything in ~/research, right? third-party
21:19:27 <ais523_> I wonder how on earth a filesystem can get into that state in the first place
21:19:36 <ais523_> unless I modify it so extensively that it's effectively mien
21:19:45 <elliott> ais523_: "Note: To disable a directory, point it to the homedir."
21:19:45 <ais523_> oh, also, unless it's binary-only
21:19:51 <elliott> ais523_: yet another example of stellar freedesktop.org design...
21:19:52 <cheater99> i am running modplug tracker under linux
21:20:05 <elliott> whoops, i forgot to readd my ignores
21:20:09 <ais523_> e.g. Neverwinter Nights is ~/nwn, not ~/research/nwn
21:20:27 <elliott> ais523_: I'd put that in ~/local/neverwinter-nights
21:20:37 <elliott> ais523_: or even /opt/neverwinter-nights
21:20:51 <ais523_> ~/research is for thirdparty source, and binaries I compile myself
21:20:56 <ais523_> but that's still most of the thirdparty stuff I own
21:21:04 <elliott> ais523_: my architecture is a bit different
21:21:07 <fizzie> I tried to run OpenCP for cubic playe nostalgisms, but it kept crashing.
21:21:11 <elliott> ais523_: everything goes in there
21:21:19 <elliott> or maybe ~/keep, it depends
21:21:26 <elliott> ais523_: everything that i didn't make, that is
21:21:33 <elliott> installation ISOs, source trees...
21:21:53 <ais523_> (a good example: Enigma's at ~/research/enigma/svn/enigma/trunk/..., but my "dot directory" for the development version's at ~/enigma-devel, with the stable version having its config at ~/.enigma)
21:22:23 <ais523_> elliott: I also have a separate category ~/research/bulky for things that are very large and don't really need backing up, like gcc tarballs
21:22:37 <ais523_> or my compiletree for clang
21:22:43 <elliott> ais523_: I am still gawping at this: "Note: To disable a directory, point it to the homedir."
21:23:08 <ais523_> elliott: if you do that for the desktop, it just projects your homedir onto the desktop
21:23:32 <elliott> ais523_: i don't have my desktop visible
21:23:44 <elliott> # Format is XDG_xxx_DIR="$HOME/yyy", where yyy is a shell-escaped
21:23:44 <elliott> # homedir-relative path, or XDG_xxx_DIR="/yyy", where /yyy is an
21:23:44 <elliott> # absolute path. No other format is supported.
21:24:00 <ais523_> wait, why would your desktop be a glob?
21:24:07 <elliott> not even real variable expansion
21:24:11 <elliott> you can't say /foo/$HOME/...
21:24:30 <ais523_> elliott: probably because the variables aren't sanely known when they need to be
21:24:42 <elliott> heh, you can set xfce to show minimised windows as icons on the desktop
21:24:42 <ais523_> what happens if you change your homedir in /etc/passwd while logged in, I wonder?
21:25:00 <ais523_> in fact, it was the only thing on the desktop, but the backgroudn
21:25:37 <ais523_> the help file advised you used a little 16x16 repeating black and (insert one other color here) pattern as the background; you could use an image, but it might make you run out of memory
21:25:44 <cpressey> homedir on desktop is not all that bad; I used to have that under intrepid
21:25:54 <cpressey> but to force you to do it is weird
21:25:58 <ais523_> you must have a much neater homedir than me
21:26:00 <cheater99> ais523_: new shells will be affected
21:26:12 <elliott> ais523_: why one other colour?
21:26:13 <ais523_> cheater99: hmm, only new login shells?
21:26:16 <cpressey> ais523_: it encourages me to keep it tidy!
21:26:16 <cheater99> ais523_: everything in linux userspace runs under a shell, as i understand.
21:26:19 <ais523_> elliott: you could choose which
21:26:24 <elliott> ais523_: checkerboards are ugly :P
21:26:31 <ais523_> cheater99: yep, but shells can choose whether they're login shells or not
21:26:46 <ais523_> really, it rereads $HOME every time?
21:26:49 <cheater99> ais523_: existing shells are existing shells, they have an $HOME
21:26:56 <fizzie> There was also a nice pixel-twiddler pattern editor for the background.
21:27:07 <ais523_> hmm, that doesn't make sense, I've done a sudo -u to a different user before now without changing $HOME
21:27:17 <ais523_> so it's inheriting $HOME, not rereading it from /etc/passwd
21:27:30 <ais523_> fizzie: I spent hours with that thing
21:27:33 <elliott> |goto goto print (print hi)
21:27:41 <ais523_> the account I'm sudoing to doesn't have a password
21:27:43 <elliott> ais523_: why are you feeding the troll?
21:27:45 <ais523_> so su wouldn't accomplish anything
21:27:46 <cheater99> not sure what you're trying to do then
21:28:03 <ais523_> cheater99: how would you suggest opening a shell as, say, www-data? going via root?
21:28:09 <elliott> (and/or extreme idiot, it doesn't particularly matter which)
21:28:41 <elliott> cpressey: so let's see, @foo is a server variable?
21:28:45 <ais523_> "sudo -u www-data" bash is the easy method
21:28:53 <ais523_> umm, "sudo -u www-data bash"
21:29:12 <ais523_> cheater99: you were root, that's cheating
21:29:29 <storkbot> elliott: goto print print goto print hi
21:29:44 <storkbot> elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
21:29:45 <cheater99> ais523_: just saying, that shows how it doesn't "inherit" $HOME
21:29:55 <ais523_> cheater99: well, exactly, it's /su/ that sets $HOME
21:30:04 <ais523_> and the shell inherits it from su
21:30:12 <cpressey> elliott: you can't set others' variables!
21:30:40 <ais523_> By default, `su' does not change the current directory. It sets the environment variables `HOME' and `SHELL' from the password entry for USER, and if USER is not the super-user, sets `USER' and `LOGNAME' to USER. By default, the shell is not a login shell.
21:30:45 <ais523_> copied straight from "info su"
21:30:46 <cpressey> elliott: oh, you're reading the source!
21:30:50 <elliott> cpressey: how the fuck did you quine the pastie number?
21:30:59 <elliott> cpressey: make a pastie, use the number after that, pastie, hope it worked?
21:31:14 <cpressey> elliott: that's why it's not lua-formatted :(
21:31:15 <cheater99> yes, when i do sudo -u netdisco bash, it uses the outer user's $HOME
21:31:19 <elliott> cpressey: ooh, i just realised something
21:31:19 <cpressey> you can only use the std formats on edit
21:31:32 <cheater99> but i was wondering if sudo is actually what sets variables
21:31:35 <elliott> cpressey: in my hash-pastebin, that'd be equivalent to finding a string containing its own hash :D
21:31:42 <elliott> cpressey: of course, you could just do read($0).hash
21:31:46 <elliott> to get the URL from inside the source
21:32:02 <elliott> cpressey: or even build a quine, and then hash that, in case you don't have file IO
21:32:14 <ais523_> elliott: I wonder if there are any known attacks to, say, find strings that contain their own md5
21:32:23 <elliott> cpressey: you could probably post the form manually :P
21:32:28 <cheater99> Note that the default behavior for the environment is the
21:32:28 <cheater99> The $HOME, $SHELL, $USER, $LOGNAME, $PATH, and $IFS environment
21:32:29 <elliott> ais523_: i would very much like that
21:32:32 <ais523_> that seems to be a sort of hash-breaking that isn't normally studied
21:32:38 <cheater99> i don't think that exactly means "su sets $HOME"
21:32:40 <elliott> ais523_: there was some reddit-esque idiocy a while back where people tried to find hex-hash quines
21:32:46 <ais523_> cheater99: that's what the -l option does
21:32:48 <elliott> ais523_: apparently thinking that hashes natively outputted hex
21:32:56 <elliott> ais523_: and that this was at all feasible to do if we just SEARCHED REALLY HARD
21:33:01 <elliott> but that was just a quine, not a quine plus extra
21:33:06 <cpressey> < elliott> ais523_: apparently thinking that hashes natively outputted hex
21:33:11 <cheater99> ais523_: that's written further down
21:33:12 <fizzie> There's a sudo flag (-h) to set $HOME to the target user's home; otherwise it doesn't touch it.
21:33:22 <ais523_> perhaps we have different su implementations
21:33:28 <elliott> cpressey: well they didn't bother to try and hex a base-256 version of it
21:33:33 <elliott> which is probably more likely to work
21:33:36 <ais523_> fizzie: which su are you talking about?
21:34:05 <cheater99> This version of su has many compilation options, only some of which may
21:34:07 <ais523_> that makes sense, sudo doesn't set $HOME in my experience
21:34:24 <elliott> ais523_: sudo not setting $HOME is the cause of the .Xauthority problem, I think
21:34:46 <elliott> ais523_: because it puts it in the wrong place and now root ownz yur X
21:34:46 <ais523_> although it makes sense that www-data or whatever can't pop up windows on /my/ desktop
21:34:51 <cheater99> so, if i have this funny little application switcher panel in ubuntu at the bottom
21:34:54 <elliott> ais523_: no, that works fine
21:34:58 <elliott> ais523_: it's just that stuff can break afterwards
21:35:03 <elliott> due to your ~/.Xauthority being written to
21:35:04 <cheater99> is there a way to tile it up vertically and have a small paner with launcher icons?
21:35:12 <elliott> which can break X on the next boot
21:35:17 <elliott> i'm not sure exactly, I just know it's retarded
21:35:28 <cheater99> i could *never* figure out how to do it.
21:35:35 <elliott> gah, ~/Desktop magically reappeared even after configuring everything
21:35:47 <ais523_> cheater99: the launcher icons you can do just by dragging them from the main menu onto the space just to the left of the application switcher (you have to be pretty accurate); the rest, I don't know how to do
21:36:41 <cpressey> elliott: write a 0-byte file there and chmod 000 it
21:36:54 <ais523_> elliott: did you try mknodding /dev/null onto the location?
21:37:12 <cheater99> ais: ok it sort of works, however: my panel is 5 rows high
21:37:22 <cheater99> and this makes the icons super-big, and they line up in 1 row only
21:37:30 <cheater99> not small and on top of each other
21:37:43 <ais523_> hmm, I'm not sure what to do about that either; configurability was never GNOME's strongpoint
21:37:49 <elliott> ais523_: no, I tried to set the xdg thing manually
21:37:51 <elliott> it seems to have listened now
21:37:57 <ais523_> elliott: mknod ~/Desktop b 1 3
21:38:04 <ais523_> create your own /dev/null wherever you like!
21:38:16 <cpressey> ais523_: that seems a little... severe
21:38:35 <cpressey> i'd feel like i was walking in a minefield
21:38:36 <ais523_> (note: this may require root privileges; typing the wrong numbers may end up overwriting random partitions, so make sure you get the right ones first)
21:38:37 <elliott> does anyone know a bash function to output the current prompt?
21:38:42 <elliott> not $PS1, that doesn't "render" it
21:39:15 <elliott> ais523_: it's not something i can capture from within bash
21:39:42 <cheater99> yeah, gnome is sort of crappy like that
21:39:44 <ais523_> cpressey: I was about to say that
21:39:44 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ echo echo hi | bash -i 2>&1 | head -n -1 | cat -v
21:39:45 <elliott> ^[]0;elliott@dinky: ~^Gelliott@dinky:~$ echo hi
21:39:53 <elliott> now to filter out the gunk
21:40:02 <fizzie> ais523_: I used to run a "dd if=/dev/full of=/dev/null" for a while every now and then to balance things out, but it never seemed to help.
21:40:05 <ais523_> cheater99: probably the easiest way to discover is to start a GNOME vs. KDE flamewar, somewhere, and use it as an example of KDE's superiority
21:40:32 <cheater99> what was that gnome configuration app?
21:40:51 <cheater99> yeah, just came up with it =) thanks
21:40:54 <elliott> you have to put the { on a different line to the foo () to declare a function in bash, right?
21:40:55 <ais523_> because Gnome thinks Windows-style registries are, despite all appearances, a good idea
21:41:05 <elliott> ais523_: so does xfce, although lessso
21:41:10 <ais523_> if it ever really catches on, we'll have malicious adverts advertising gconf cleaners
21:41:12 <elliott> ais523_: (kde's just happens to serialise to plain text)
21:41:21 <elliott> ais523_: (but modifying it is lol)
21:41:46 <ais523_> elliott: argh, I've just been reminded of the worst hack in my life
21:41:48 <cheater99> this thing is SO much like windows registry
21:41:57 <cheater99> they should have named it gregistry
21:42:13 <ais523_> when I was young, and Innocent, and Microsoft was all I knew, and I had a buggy 32-bit compiler
21:42:16 <cheater99> ais523_: haha, i hadn't read your comment before i said that
21:42:33 <elliott> echo "$1" | TERM=dumb bash -i 2>&1 | head -n -1 | sprunge
21:42:34 <ais523_> I was writing 16-bit programs, and Excel programs, and 32-bit programs, which needed to communicate with each other
21:42:55 <cheater99> ais523_: what sort of music are you into?
21:43:25 <ais523_> and instead of using the normal IPC methods, I used system() equivalents (go go WinExec()!) and passed arguments and return values either in win.ini, or the registry
21:43:45 <ais523_> cheater99: generally classical, and computer game music
21:44:28 <elliott> Things the world needs: An ANSI-colour-supporting pastebin.
21:44:35 <ais523_> in my state of youthful innocence, I was sort-of worried it would burn a hole in the hard disk, though
21:44:59 <Gregor> elliott: What's especially great about your sprunge-cmd is that if you want to cancel, it's really effing difficult.
21:45:07 <ais523_> oh no, it's worse, I just remembered what I used it /for/
21:45:57 <fizzie> elliott: I can add that to zpaste if you wish, but it's not exactly a public service. Also, so many programs tend to disable colors when they sniff the output isn't to terminal. (I guess most have flags for it, though.)
21:46:04 <ais523_> I was writing a computer game (in Excel; I was once better at VBA than any mortal should be, not that that's a particularly high bar...), and wanted a multiplayer mode
21:46:14 <ais523_> but both people were playing at the same computer, both watching the screen
21:46:26 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, that's irritating though :P
21:46:39 <elliott> Gregor: Why would you want to cancel, apart from being a nazi?
21:46:50 <ais523_> so the program in question made those images that can only be seen through a red/blue filter and pasted them onto the clipboard
21:46:54 <Gregor> elliott: ls ~/allMyGayPorn OH SHIT NOOOO
21:47:05 <ais523_> and Excel pasted them from there, the idea was that only one of the people would have a red filter, the other would have a blue filter
21:47:13 <elliott> Gregor: So don't publicise the URL :P
21:47:18 <ais523_> but it didn't really work, because all the blue filters I had access to were crappy and you couldn't see the text anway
21:47:45 <ais523_> it was still a nice, although faintly ridiculous, idea, though
21:47:49 <elliott> ais523_: you are a bad person
21:48:15 <ais523_> (other uses involved extracting the volume label of the hard disk for trivial-DRM purposes, which apparently can be done via Win32 but not Win16)
21:48:22 <fizzie> elliott: I could have a "run-in-zpaste" thing that'd allocate a pseudo-tty and paste that, maybe; then you'd just "zpaste --run ls" instead of "ls | zpaste". I'll try to remember to think of it at a more opportunate moment.
21:48:43 <elliott> fizzie: So basically script(1). :P
21:48:51 <elliott> fizzie: It's okay, my pastebin will be totally better.
21:49:09 <fizzie> ais523_: In win16, couldn't you just run the dos command to get the label, and pipe that to a temporary file?
21:49:16 <Gregor> Actually, screw the pastebin.
21:49:26 <elliott> what's the program that copies stdin to the X clipboard?
21:49:31 <ais523_> fizzie: this is the sort of disaster that happens when you grow up without knowing of the existence of pipes
21:49:35 <elliott> Gregor: Indeed, that is what it will let you do. That is the purpose of the hookers.
21:49:42 <ais523_> really, people say that UNIX is bad, it has nothing on Windows
21:49:50 <ais523_> you don't even think "surely there's a better way", it's all you're used to
21:49:50 -!- Velmont has joined.
21:50:06 <elliott> you can tell by the hostname
21:50:18 <ais523_> wouldn't the knuth be ~before~ the @ in that case?
21:50:19 <cheater99> ais523_: i'm doing exactly what you told me
21:50:26 <ais523_> also, I have no idea what the emphasis there is
21:50:40 <ais523_> since when did I use tildes for emphasis?
21:50:58 <elliott> aha, xsel, thanks nobody for telling me
21:51:03 <Gregor> ais523_: Knuth is so badass he has his own hostname. Which isn't much of an accomplishment, but ignore that.
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21:51:29 <ais523_> elliott: if you're not careful, I'll start surrounding all my comments with hyphens again
21:51:32 <Gregor> augur_ is Agent 129. You can tell by the IP address.
21:51:53 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:51:57 <ais523_> (this has been verified by experiment to be one of the creepiest things you can do on IRC without actual real-world knowledge of someone's circumstances)
21:52:22 <elliott> ais523_: -You're sitting on a chair.-
21:52:47 <elliott> so perhaps Velmont is a Norwegian friend of oklopol's
21:52:53 <Gregor> elliott: The correct name is .nolandia
21:52:58 <elliott> although, really, someone who capitalises the o in oklopol can't be oklopol's friend
21:52:59 <ais523_> oklopol is great, just not here right now
21:53:08 <elliott> and Velmont should feel bad
21:53:09 <fizzie> Perhaps oklopols fly to Norway for winter.
21:53:10 <olsner> ais523_: what's creepy about hyphens?
21:53:11 <ais523_> elliott: perhaps oklopol capitalises it in real life?
21:53:20 <ais523_> olsner: -just read several pages of someone doing this-
21:53:21 <elliott> ais523_: Oklopol Howeveryouspellhislastname
21:53:27 <elliott> even in his realname field he had it lowercase
21:53:27 <ais523_> -it has a sort of ominous feel to it-
21:53:28 <augur_> Gregor: no no, im agent 128
21:53:32 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
21:53:33 <cpressey> Oklopol: like INTERPOL, except it's only for Oklahoma.
21:53:34 <elliott> ais523_: you have to capitalise and punctuate.
21:53:42 <elliott> olsner: -Just read several pages of someone doing this.-
21:53:44 <fizzie> Oklo Pol, son of Klo Pol.
21:53:49 <elliott> olsner: -It has a sort of ominous feel to it.-
21:53:59 <ais523_> olsner: -elliot and I have both done it, it just gets creepier and creepier as time goes on-
21:54:03 <Velmont> I only know his real name, I asked him for his nick and he didn't tell me about the capitalization.
21:54:06 <elliott> ais523_: yeah but i spelled it wrong last i checked
21:54:09 <elliott> ais523_: I HATE YOU FOR MY NAME EVER
21:54:17 <elliott> Velmont: what's his real name again? I forget
21:54:27 <ais523_> elliott: double t at the end of a word is hard to type...
21:54:33 <elliott> ais523_: for some definition of hard
21:55:43 <cpressey> No, I guess that would be OKLAPOL.
21:57:12 <elliott> yay i finally got my commands working
21:57:19 <elliott> got that url in my clipboard by:
21:57:21 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ sprunge-cmd tree -I esoteric | copy
21:57:44 <ais523_> there is something so wrong-seeming about having that copy command
21:58:00 <ais523_> clipboard's a GUI thing, not a shell thing, in my mind
21:58:06 <elliott> ais523_: it's useful, though
21:58:32 <ais523_> who are the cat-v people again?
21:58:37 <elliott> ais523_: it goes a small way to integrating the silly GUI rubbish into the nice linguistic command processing stuff
21:58:42 <ais523_> (also, less > cat-v for viewing binaries)
21:58:46 <elliott> ais523_: cat-v.org is uriel, Plan 9 + libertarian + etc
21:59:00 <elliott> ais523_: I don't like -v, but I use "cat -v" as a single atomic command
21:59:10 <elliott> ais523_: I might alias it to "vis", which was the 8th Edition Unix name for it
21:59:11 <ais523_> it's very ironic to name a Plan 9 website after cat -v , isn't it?
21:59:18 <elliott> ais523_: (except it output it slightly different -- \xxx in octal -- but whatever)
21:59:29 <elliott> ais523_: well the "name" of the site is "cat -v Considered Harmful"
21:59:36 <cpressey> Velmont, do you like coding in Python?
21:59:40 <elliott> which is even more self-referential
21:59:49 <elliott> ais523_: and the "harmful" section is titled "cat -v"
21:59:53 <ais523_> one of these names that means the opposite when abbreviated?
21:59:59 <elliott> ais523_: so i think there's more than a bit of irony/just plain reference going on here.
22:00:05 <elliott> wow, a genuine crazy person
22:00:28 <ais523_> </ais523> but Python is brilliant! <ais523>
22:00:33 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:00:35 <ais523_> hmm, tha's a really bad way of pretending it's not me saying it
22:00:57 <elliott> ais523_: you need </ais523_>
22:01:06 <elliott> and no need for <ais523_>, because that's what all your lines start with
22:01:19 <elliott> everything's implicitly closed at end-of-line, obviously
22:01:21 <ais523_> elliott: I know, it doesn't really work
22:01:21 <elliott> or rather, reset to defaults
22:01:36 <cpressey> ais523_: I can see how that could get awful.
22:02:28 <ais523_> it's a reference to The Baron, who was a player in an email game that elliott and I each also used to play
22:02:36 <ais523_> he did that in every message he sent, it was really creepy
22:02:48 -!- wareya has joined.
22:02:57 <cheater99> ais523_: http://quick-lounge.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html !
22:03:21 <elliott> ais523_: wasn't it A Nomic he played in?
22:03:35 <elliott> ais523_: another similarly horrible thing:
22:03:38 -!- elliott has changed nick to Eliezer_Yudkowsk.
22:03:39 <ais523_> cheater99: you know I block links, right? even though I'm not on my usual computer or my usual client, so I can see the link perfectly well
22:03:45 <ais523_> I'm still not following it out of principle
22:03:55 -!- Eliezer_Yudkowsk has changed nick to elliott.
22:04:03 <elliott> ais523_: clearly an ex-MUDder or soemthing
22:04:16 <Velmont> I've invented a language called rainduck.
22:04:17 <ais523_> not just that, it's an ISIDTID violation
22:04:22 <ais523_> cheater99: because they're annoying, and mostly not useful
22:04:22 * Gregor says, "This is how all the cool kids talk."
22:04:29 <ais523_> Velmont: is it a BF derivative, by any chance?
22:04:38 <elliott> ais523_: here we go: http://www.sl4.org/archive/0207/4689.html
22:04:43 <cheater99> ais523_: this is something that does what i described
22:04:43 <elliott> ais523_: ooh, he actually did
22:04:50 <elliott> ais523_: rather than "bar: blah"
22:04:52 <Velmont> ais523_: Yes, but very different. It's based on ducks instead of numbers.
22:05:20 <ais523_> hmm, sounds like a good start
22:05:34 <ais523_> also, sounds like it badly needs an FFI to HOMESPRING, although I don't know how ducks would interact with salmon
22:05:46 <ais523_> (or how you write a nontrivial HOMESPRING program anyway, I'm not even convinced it's TC)
22:06:06 <ais523_> cpressey: "I say I do, therefore I do"
22:06:08 <fizzie> I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities.
22:06:28 <ais523_> imagine going into a shop, and buying something, but instead of giving the shopkeeper money, you just say, out loud, "I give you money"
22:06:48 <ais523_> it's pretty ludicrous in RL, yet people manage the equivalent all the time in online games
22:06:49 <Gregor> fizzie: I have no idea how to put Daffy Duck's laugh into text, but imagine that text is here: _____
22:07:19 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities.
22:07:22 <Vorpal> cheater99, what would the point be of that software?
22:07:22 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:07:31 <HackEgo> 250|<fizzie> I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities.
22:07:42 <Gregor> elliott: I didn't say it would be fast, just that it would work.
22:07:45 <ais523_> as slowly as David's ears, in fact!
22:07:45 <cheater99> Vorpal: gnome doesn't do the things it does, on its own
22:07:51 <cheater99> Vorpal: look at the screenshots section
22:07:53 <ais523_> umm, that's slightly, isn't it?
22:07:57 <elliott> Gregor: but it's slowing down, maybe something's badness
22:07:57 <Vorpal> cheater99, yes I looked. And?
22:08:02 <elliott> ais523_: ooh, i forgot about them!
22:08:04 <Vorpal> cheater99, I utterly fail to see the use of it
22:08:28 <ais523_> oh, both slowing and slighting were involved
22:08:36 <Vorpal> cheater99, I have some quick launching icons in the top menu bar. To be specific: firefox, thunderbird, gnome-terminal, emacs, kate
22:08:42 <cheater99> Vorpal: that's your problem, then.
22:08:51 <Vorpal> cheater99, there are loads of space left over
22:08:59 <ais523_> Vorpal: gnome-terminal, emacs, /and/ Kate? something seems a bit fishy about that
22:09:08 <elliott> Vorpal likes kate because he has no taste
22:09:12 <ais523_> even though it's a combination I use, it just feels wrong
22:09:16 <ais523_> (I haven't used Kate for a while, actually)
22:09:20 <Vorpal> ais523_, depends on which language I'm coding in
22:09:36 <Vorpal> since they are like 24x24 pixels
22:09:43 <Vorpal> and this is a 24" widescreen monitor
22:09:50 <ais523_> although when you're up to the stage of lua in gedit, Perl in Kate, C in Emacs, it gets a little silly
22:09:51 <Vorpal> I have absolutely no lack of space
22:10:06 <ais523_> I'm mostly a Perl in Emacs person, but Emacs' Perl support isn't great and sometime I have to use Kate instead
22:10:22 <ais523_> Vorpal: because it's low-tech, for that notepad feel
22:10:27 <Vorpal> ais523_, C in kate for me, erlang, lisp and haskell in emacs
22:10:32 <ais523_> and sometimes I just like to edit by hand
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22:10:46 <elliott> ais523_: gedit has tons of plugins and crap it's far from low-tech
22:10:52 <Vorpal> <ais523_> and sometimes I just like to edit by hand <-- ed? magnetic needle?
22:10:52 <elliott> it's just bad when extended like that, though :P
22:10:55 <ais523_> elliott: I mean, the way I have it set up
22:10:58 <elliott> ais523_: LEADEN is low-tech!
22:11:05 <ais523_> it doesn't even do autoindentation, just old Turbo Pascal-style
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22:11:22 <Vorpal> ais523_, I fail to see why you would want to use that then
22:11:32 <elliott> evidence that oklopol is there grows
22:11:37 <ais523_> Vorpal: are you not a Real Programmer (windows 3.1 version)?
22:11:52 <cheater99> ahh but you can do that with normal gnome too
22:11:57 <elliott> Vorpal: lilja_ lends evidence to the proposition that oklopol is wherever Velmont is
22:11:59 <Vorpal> ais523_, no. I grew up with classical mac OS
22:12:11 <Vorpal> elliott, errr. how so?
22:12:23 * elliott lets Vorpal puzzle it out himself
22:12:48 <elliott> it's only young in my mind *sniff*
22:13:33 <elliott> Velmont: i take it oklopol doesn't think we're cool enough to talk to :'(
22:13:35 <Vorpal> elliott, but what has that got to do with oklopol?
22:13:44 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe you meant oerjan?
22:14:07 <Vorpal> elliott, is oklopol in Norway now or something?
22:14:21 <elliott> Velmont: please explain to Vorpal...
22:15:01 <Velmont> Vorpal: He's here with me.
22:15:09 <cpressey> ais523_: "It's raining but I don't think it is."
22:15:35 <elliott> ais523_: cpressey is riffing on ISIDTID, I would presume
22:15:37 <Vorpal> Velmont, why is he in Norway then?
22:15:38 <ais523_> that's as bad as me resolving a paradox by maintaining publically that my own position, while correct, was unreasonable
22:15:38 <cpressey> ais523_: an example of linguistics that your ISIDTID reminded me of
22:16:16 <Velmont> Vorpal: Because lilja_ is doing work for her masters degree here.
22:16:21 <cpressey> There is actually a context where it makes sense -- when you are narrating past events that happened to you, but using present tense
22:16:34 <cpressey> "It's 4AM, Thursday. I wake up. It's raining, but..."
22:16:48 <Vorpal> <ais523_> cpressey: "I say I do, therefore I do" <-- hm okay
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22:28:12 <elliott> outside of illicit channels, I know of no way to get a copy of MS-DOS
22:28:52 <ais523_> follow standards everyone else has forgotten
22:28:58 <ais523_> make things work where others don't bother
22:29:06 <ais523_> then ruin it all by putting an inexplicable cap on the value of constantas
22:29:15 <elliott> MS dos 4 01 uk 5,25\" 360Kb » applications other os
22:29:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone tell me how much energy U-235 fission gives off.
22:29:34 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: 4, I'm not sure which units
22:30:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 42, I'm not sure which units but you can convert from ais523's to mine like this: 42x/4
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22:30:54 * elliott just downloads DOS 6.22 instead
22:31:02 <olsner> hmm, MS-DOS might still be included in the MSDN cd set
22:31:30 <olsner> at least it was 10 years ago, last time I saw one of those
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22:31:59 <elliott> olsner: iirc MSDNA or whatever it is has it
22:32:13 <ais523_> I could sign up to that in theory, I think
22:32:20 <ais523_> but I don't, because it'd be useless unless I ran Windows
22:32:34 <Vorpal> ais523_, works in wine
22:32:43 <olsner> and you get a windows license too, of course
22:32:46 <elliott> ais523_: but you can get all sorts of ridiculous software for free!
22:32:57 <Vorpal> also exact offering varies between universities
22:33:00 <ais523_> elliott: that's pointless unless I want to actually /use/ it
22:33:12 <ais523_> also, it'd take ages reading the EULA, Microsoft's is really quite long
22:33:22 <elliott> ais523_: you even *read actual EULAs*?
22:33:30 <elliott> like, the ones that are 10 pages printed in 12pt?
22:33:39 <ais523_> I'm not going to pretend that I'm surprised that other people don't, because I know they don't
22:33:43 <ais523_> but don't be surprised that I do
22:33:57 <ais523_> (admittedly, if I recognise the EULA, I don't reread the duplicate copies)
22:34:10 <elliott> if ais523_ was redesigned without the eccentricities, he would probably take over the world
22:34:11 <ais523_> there are some really weird sections in some of them
22:34:18 <ais523_> one of the section's in Microsoft's is in French
22:34:36 <olsner> I think the situation would be better for everyone if there was actually *no-one* reading those things
22:35:02 <Vorpal> ais523_, maybe it only applies to France then?
22:35:14 <ais523_> olsner: in the UK a while ago, EULAs were ruled unenforceable because nobody actually read them, thus a contract wasn't formed
22:35:23 <ais523_> (to be more precise, because they were designed to discourage being read)
22:35:27 <ais523_> Vorpal: it only applies to Canada, I think
22:35:52 <elliott> ais523_: so why do you read them? :p
22:36:06 <ais523_> elliott: so I know whether to accept them or not
22:36:13 * elliott sees MP3 being referred to as "Layer III", lols
22:36:16 <elliott> ais523_: but they're not binding
22:36:25 <elliott> <ais523_> I don't care, I respect Microsoft anyway!
22:36:36 <Vorpal> elliott, the two lower layers being?
22:36:47 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-1_Audio_Layer_I
22:36:51 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-1_Audio_Layer_II
22:36:53 <Vorpal> elliott, aren't they outdated formats
22:37:03 <Vorpal> elliott, as opposed to *layers*
22:37:07 <elliott> Vorpal: no, they're layers.
22:37:10 <elliott> that's the technical terminology
22:37:13 <ais523_> elliott: I suppose I just don't like lying, even to a computer
22:37:16 <elliott> Vorpal: because they're all MPEG
22:37:18 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but not on top of each other
22:37:22 <Vorpal> they are different versions
22:37:47 <Vorpal> elliott, so they go on top of each other?
22:38:00 <elliott> THEY'RE DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THE *AUDIO LAYER* OF AN MPEG FILE
22:38:12 <Vorpal> elliott, yes that is what I said
22:38:16 <elliott> ais523_: what would you do if a dialogue box popped open saying:
22:38:18 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, yes but not on top of each other
22:38:18 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> they are different versions
22:38:23 <elliott> "What did you not answer this question with?
22:38:29 <elliott> [ This answer ] [ This other answer ]"
22:38:31 <elliott> ais523_: and no close box?
22:38:32 <ais523_> elliott: depends on the context
22:38:47 <elliott> Vorpal: the mpeg file has an audio layer
22:38:52 <ais523_> I have less trouble lying in contexts where it's obvious that I'm potentially going to lie
22:38:55 <elliott> Vorpal: it can be of the format audio layer 1, audio layer 2, etc.
22:38:59 <Vorpal> elliott, but layer III is wrong
22:39:01 <elliott> the audio layer 1 format, audio layer 2 format
22:39:04 <ais523_> playing certain games, for instance
22:39:08 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a version number
22:39:13 <elliott> ais523_: it's just a program you decided to run
22:39:14 <Vorpal> elliott, not like layer in the OSI model
22:39:16 <ais523_> (I am, incidentally, rather bad at lying, even when I try)
22:39:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that is all I ever disputed
22:39:25 <elliott> ais523_: (presumably intended to have another purpose of that; say the title is "To use this program, please answer the following")
22:39:48 <Vorpal> elliott, MP3 doesn't go on top of MP2. That is all I said all along
22:39:57 <ais523_> elliott: I'd assume such a program was playing games with me; if it was allegedly serious, I'd assume it was some sort of practical joke)
22:40:03 <elliott> ais523_: but what would you do?
22:40:21 <ais523_> elliott: depends on the context, but likely kill the process under the assumption that the program was malicious
22:40:40 <ais523_> wouldn't that be what you'd conclude if apparently serious software started doing that?
22:40:48 <elliott> ais523_: you ran a reliable virus scanner/analyser on it and it reported that the program only used create_dialogue_box and duplicate_file
22:40:52 <elliott> (say, it's a file duplication program)
22:41:04 <ais523_> you can make malicious dialog boxes!
22:41:11 <ais523_> (and duplicate files in malicious ways!)
22:41:11 <elliott> ais523_: it also gives arguments
22:41:19 <elliott> create_dialogue_box purely brings up that box, according to the arguments
22:41:21 <ais523_> also, why would I be using a file duplication program other than a cp variant?
22:41:29 <elliott> ais523_: and duplicate_file's first argument is always user input
22:41:33 <elliott> ais523_: also, because you decided to.
22:41:38 <elliott> ais523_: are you sure you kill it?
22:41:51 <Vorpal> elliott, if that happened to me I would react pretty much as ais523_ and then file a bug :P
22:41:52 <ais523_> elliott: at this stage, I need so many nested hypotheticals that it's hard to envisage what I'd do
22:42:15 <cpressey> ais523_: also, in this world, the sky is pink
22:42:31 <ais523_> (I think the sort of questioning you were trying there was a TDWTF meme for a while, after someone tried it in an interview)
22:42:32 <elliott> ais523_: and frogs are actually illegal
22:42:45 <elliott> frogpaper would be sweet, gotta admit
22:42:51 <elliott> hmm, name a common hard drive size > 100 megs but < 1 gig
22:42:56 <ais523_> elliott: dangling SHALL, there
22:43:02 <ais523_> do you mean that people SHALL NOT own frogs?
22:43:04 <elliott> a > 100 meg HD size you might see used with MS-DOS
22:43:07 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean frogper
22:43:09 <elliott> ais523_: no, frogs are just illegal
22:43:22 <ais523_> I'm not sure what it means for a noun to be illegal, as opposed to a verb
22:43:30 <elliott> ais523_: and nobody has dared test it in court yet
22:44:02 <ais523_> my guess would be that it would be a method for the government to arbitrarily declare activities to potentially involve frogs
22:44:10 <ais523_> in order to create an excuse to arrest people they didn't like
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22:45:00 <elliott> <elliott> a > 100 meg HD size you might see used with MS-DOS
22:45:04 <elliott> nobody wanna take the bait? :(
22:45:21 <ais523_> 200 metric MB would seem plausible, or maybe 240
22:45:54 <elliott> "240 meg hard drive" "Did you mean: 240 gig hard drive"
22:45:59 <ais523_> do you want me to guess some larger numbers?
22:46:04 <ais523_> also, I love that correction
22:46:09 <elliott> Quantum 240MB 3.5 inch IDE Hard Drive ProDrive LPS GM24A013
22:46:12 <Vorpal> elliott, well you could go bigger but what would be the point
22:46:21 <elliott> Vorpal: so 240 do you think?
22:46:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well, hard to say
22:46:33 <elliott> ais523_: well, it's old and no longer produced
22:46:35 <ais523_> hmm, I'm having issues visualising that
22:46:41 <ais523_> expensive because it's hard to obtain, presumably?
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22:46:50 <elliott> ais523_: they were popular when they existed
22:47:08 <elliott> that's probably selling them at their retail price at the time or something
22:47:14 <Vorpal> elliott, why did they disappear?
22:47:23 <olsner> didn't they merge with/get bought by seagate?
22:47:23 <ais523_> Vorpal: someone observed them
22:47:33 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Corporation
22:47:41 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, Heisenberg Corporation
22:47:59 <elliott> why are you XDing me, i was trying to see how stupidly unaware of ais523_'s joke you could get
22:48:09 <ais523_> elliott: you gave it away too quickly
22:48:18 <elliott> ais523_: he'd just give up, though
22:48:25 <ais523_> 'twould have worked better if I'd got in before olsner's sensible answer, though
22:48:36 <ais523_> it rather gave away the existence of a joke
22:49:07 <ais523_> (incidentally, this channel seems to use jokes as weapons to prove other people's stupidity/denseness, rather than for actual humour, which is possibly missing the point somewhat)
22:49:33 <Vorpal> <ais523_> 'twould have worked better if I'd got in before olsner's sensible answer, though <-- yes it would have worked then
22:49:37 <Vorpal> as it was now, it didn't
22:50:35 <ais523_> are you going to run printable hello world programs on it?
22:50:47 <elliott> ais523_: yes, and also write my own, far superior DEBUG.COM-based batch file assembler
22:50:55 <elliott> ais523_: and hopefully assemble my DOS 1 on it
22:51:09 <elliott> yay, it supports UK keyboards!
22:51:14 <HackEgo> 247|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
22:51:24 <HackEgo> 248|[spam] Any flavored hell can pee on the pig pen, but it takes a real football team to throw a slyly optimal formless void at a hole puncher.
22:51:31 <HackEgo> 247|* Gregor bashes his head into the wall that is Sgeo.
22:51:38 <ais523_> what happened to the zzo quote?
22:51:40 <HackEgo> 246|<ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
22:51:45 <elliott> ais523_: tl;dr hackego sucks at reverting
22:51:51 <elliott> and apparently gregor didn't bother to do anything about it
22:51:53 <elliott> when i pinged him about it
22:51:57 <Sgeo> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/10/28/carl-paladino-brushes-off-poll-numbers-on-long-island/
22:51:57 <elliott> ais523_: hmm, is DOS Y2K compatible?
22:52:01 <ais523_> [16:46] <elliott> 22:00:09 <HackEgo> 247|<zzo38> elliott: Do not trust a computer you cannot throw out of a window. Including the window too far from the rope.
22:52:02 <Sgeo> I hate humanity
22:52:06 <elliott> ais523_: i reverted it and shit
22:52:09 <elliott> ais523_: not everything worked
22:52:14 <elliott> ais523_: and shit, uh, basically, it got messed and still is
22:52:15 <pikhq> I wonder if FreeDOS can do UTF8.
22:52:16 <ais523_> I'm trying to figure out what that quote means
22:52:35 <ais523_> elliott: I was using win3.1 past 2000
22:52:42 <elliott> ais523_: but did it think it was 1910?
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22:52:49 <ais523_> but File Manager printed years as 19:0 for 2000
22:52:57 <Sgeo> Clearly, he doesn't really want to let his computer be destroyed
22:53:02 <elliott> ais523_: I mean, DOS has recognised it's /10
22:53:08 <elliott> ais523_: I'm just not sure *which* /10 it thinks it is
22:53:08 <Sgeo> </obvious-or-oblivious-joke-explainer>
22:53:26 <ais523_> Sgeo: even with that explanation, I don't understand
22:54:03 <Sgeo> "a window", taken literally? /em isn't ssure
22:54:03 <elliott> ais523_: tie computer to short rope, throw out window, retrieve computer with impossible strength
22:54:22 <elliott> ais523_: interestingly, i never noticed that quote doesn't make sense until you pointed it out
22:54:30 <elliott> ais523_: "Never use a computer if not X or not Y".
22:54:42 <elliott> ais523_: "Including" meaning "the previous condition is violated in this additional case:" in zzo38
22:54:48 <ais523_> elliott: I'd expect zzo38 grammar to generally be insanely pedantically correct
22:54:59 <elliott> ais523_: it isn't, if you look closely
22:55:04 <ais523_> and aren't windows windows even if they're too far from the rope?
22:55:27 <Sgeo> They could be only marginally connected thoughts
22:55:50 <Sgeo> I've done that before
22:56:31 <cpressey> I makes total sense when you decode into it
22:57:16 <Sgeo> It's infecting cpressey!
22:57:57 <elliott> <ais523_> and aren't windows windows even if they're too far from the rope?
22:58:20 <elliott> ais523_: yes, but you should never use a computer that you can't throw out of a window, or even if you can throw it out of the computer, you shouldn't unless the rope is close enough to the window
22:58:25 <elliott> ais523_: perhaps rope = power cord
22:59:23 <Sgeo> They used power coords in the old days to hang people
22:59:31 <Sgeo> Some coords came through a time vorte
22:59:38 <Sgeo> Best use of them was hanging
22:59:54 * Sgeo is in a giggly mood
23:00:01 <elliott> YOU ARE ALWAYS IN A GIGGLY MOOD
23:00:03 <ais523_> so am I, and have been for the last several hours
23:00:12 <ais523_> this channel's been so amazing, if not exactly ontopic
23:00:25 <elliott> I didn't notice any additional amazingness
23:00:32 <elliott> ais523_: what's SMARTDRV and why is MS-DOS running it?
23:00:39 <elliott> and why isn't it booting up further X_X
23:01:10 <ais523_> elliott: SMARTDRV is disk caching
23:01:25 <elliott> but yeah it has frozen my flrtirt
23:01:31 <ais523_> and yes if your memory is faster than your disk, so no because you're on a virtualised system
23:01:37 <Sgeo> http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/cgi-bin/pdilemma.perl
23:01:41 <elliott> ais523_: err, the HD is still a file
23:01:58 <ais523_> well, you have caching on your own disk, don't you?
23:02:10 <ais523_> if the outside OS is caching, pointless for the inside OS to be caching too
23:02:18 <ais523_> or you'd be caching caches
23:02:28 <elliott> ais523_: more to the point, DOS doesn't work! sad
23:02:44 <ais523_> both DOSBox and JPC-RR work fine for me
23:02:56 <ais523_> (although both are rather slow; JPC-RR is /incredibly/ slow)
23:03:04 <elliott> ais523_: i want original authentic DEBUG.COM!
23:03:12 <ais523_> is that in the same zipfile as QBasic?
23:03:18 <elliott> ais523_: i very much doubt it
23:03:22 <elliott> anyway, i want real dos, so nyah
23:04:06 <Sgeo> Why did it have to be blink tags?
23:04:23 <elliott> ais523_: to be honest, i'd rather use ms-dos 5, before stinky CD distribution
23:04:58 <ais523_> apparently, <blink> was originally added as a joke
23:05:05 <ais523_> and people liked the feature and wanted it to be kept in
23:05:20 <ais523_> ("apparently" meaning "on some webpage I can't remember, and I'm not sure how reliable it was")
23:05:29 <cpressey> i thought that was javascript!
23:05:32 * Sgeo remembers reddit linking to it
23:05:36 <elliott> "Current date is Thu 10-28-2010
23:05:40 <elliott> Enter new date (mm-dd-yy):"
23:05:44 <elliott> err, no DOS, you got it right
23:06:00 <elliott> apparently 10-28-10 is an invalid date :)
23:06:24 <cpressey> so how to I tell Ubuntu that my FAT32 filesystems should behave as +x on all files be default, like it used to
23:06:30 <elliott> ais523_: wow, DOS 3.3 (1987) didn't show :\ in the prompt
23:06:39 <Sgeo> http://www.montulli.org/theoriginofthe%3Cblink%3Etag
23:06:43 <ais523_> cpressey: it's probably an option in /etc/mtab, if I've remembered the name correctly
23:06:46 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/cmaam/i_would_like_to_publicly_state_that_at_no_time/
23:06:51 <ais523_> elliott: it didn't show the directory at all
23:06:58 <ais523_> in DOS, you use cd to print the current directory
23:07:12 <ais523_> which is confusing if you're used to the pwd-prints-cd-homes behaviour of UNIX
23:07:42 <elliott> cpressey: mtab is the current state
23:08:03 <cpressey> well fstab only lists permanent fs's
23:08:19 <cpressey> how to say "when you mount this", etc
23:08:27 <elliott> "In the end, the thing that I am truly sad about, is that Lynx never did get to blink."
23:08:33 <ais523_> ouch, that's pretty complex
23:08:38 <ais523_> also, is Lynx still developed?
23:08:41 <elliott> cpressey: i think you can tell it not to automount
23:08:47 <elliott> ais523_: what's pretty complex?
23:08:54 <elliott> ais523_: also, yes; last stable release was in June
23:08:57 <elliott> last development release too
23:09:02 <ais523_> changing default settings for USB stick mounting
23:09:16 <elliott> ais523_: windows drive, not usb stick
23:09:28 <ais523_> as in, I don't know a simple way to do it
23:09:36 <cpressey> elliott: *mine* is a usb stick
23:09:45 <ais523_> you could remount it with different settings, once it's mounted
23:09:56 -!- lilja_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:10:01 <ais523_> I can't remember how to do that either, but it's relatively easy IIRC
23:10:02 <elliott> cpressey: why not just format it as ext3 >:)
23:10:14 <elliott> ais523_: ok, 4.01 is also evilly old
23:10:18 <ais523_> elliott: user numbers are different on different systems you take it to
23:10:26 <elliott> ais523_: clearly we need asciifs
23:10:29 <ais523_> elliott: not as old as NetHack, then
23:10:32 <elliott> and, also, no non-printable chars
23:10:35 <elliott> it's like shar but for filesystems
23:10:38 <ais523_> elliott: no, because usernames can differ too
23:10:45 <elliott> it's like shar but for filesystems!
23:10:45 <ais523_> it should just magically know
23:10:50 <elliott> even better: it's actually a shell script
23:10:56 <ais523_> that said, sharfs is a great concept
23:10:57 <elliott> preferably one that recreates the directory tree, permissions and all
23:11:04 <elliott> of course, in a fixed format
23:11:07 <elliott> (not running sh in the kernel! :P)
23:11:18 <ais523_> having sh in the kernel would be nice for crash recovery
23:11:30 <elliott> ais523_: yes, but, don't mount the filesystem that way
23:11:34 <elliott> just parse the shell script according to a fixed format
23:11:41 <elliott> ais523_: this would actually be nice for loopback
23:11:46 <elliott> ais523_: you can either 'sh foo.sh' and get a foo/ directory
23:11:50 <ais523_> hmm, it would actually be a quine, wouldn't it?
23:11:58 <ais523_> running foo.sh on a sharfs system
23:12:03 <ais523_> would create a copy of its source
23:12:10 <elliott> ais523_: well, it'd... eh?
23:12:19 <elliott> ais523_: foo.sh, when *run*, would create the filesystem on any filesystem
23:12:26 <Sgeo> http://cheese.blartwendo.com/web21-demo.html
23:12:28 <ais523_> if that filesystem is sharfs itself
23:12:31 <ais523_> it's making a copy of itself
23:12:38 <ais523_> so the new sharfs filesystem is the same as the old one
23:13:15 <elliott> ais523_: how to back up your drive:
23:13:27 <elliott> # sh /dev/foo && tar-and-compress-etc .
23:13:37 <cpressey> WARNING: peak scalar flow in deep node
23:13:58 <ais523_> elliott: I'm suggesting # mount /dev/foo2 /mnt # cd /mnt # sh /dev/foo
23:14:02 <cpressey> WARNING: also, bad magic. check log for warnings
23:14:09 <ais523_> now, /dev/foo2 is a copy of /dev/foo, assuming it's sharfs
23:14:19 <elliott> ais523_: oh, right, it writes changes back
23:14:34 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
23:16:40 <cpressey> elliott: WARNING: logic not configured
23:16:47 <cpressey> WARNING: also, too many statements in exp
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23:17:45 <cpressey> debugging this thing is making me a bit mashuga
23:18:21 <elliott> cpressey: rewrite storkbot in |-lang
23:18:25 <storkbot> elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
23:19:29 <elliott> cpressey: use @ and ~/ for all the variables and stuff and add conditionals and whatnot
23:19:44 <cpressey> I'm planning to make that "Unknown command (for a more interesting response, set ~/snark=1.)
23:20:05 <cpressey> oh rewrite storkbot in the language storkbot implements?
23:20:24 <elliott> cpressey: write a storklang implementation then write storkbot in storklang
23:20:30 <elliott> and the original dream you had will be COMPLETE
23:20:57 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
23:21:48 <elliott> http://nastynets.com/secretstash/blogstuff/2010/10/fingeruser.png
23:22:35 -!- Ilari has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
23:23:06 <storkbot> cpressey: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
23:23:17 <elliott> cpressey: oh is that why those exist? heh
23:23:19 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has changed nick to Ilari.
23:23:20 <elliott> cpressey: shouldn't they be global
23:23:31 <cpressey> elliott: if they were global you could HACK them!
23:23:49 <elliott> cpressey: make a sys account
23:24:01 -!- Ilari_ has joined.
23:24:01 <elliott> cpressey: what variables do you have again?
23:24:17 -!- Ilari has changed nick to Ilari_antrcomp.
23:24:21 -!- Ilari_ has changed nick to Ilari.
23:24:29 <storkbot> cpressey: Out of stack space! Well no, but I stopped it anyway.
23:24:45 <storkbot> cpressey: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto
23:24:51 <storkbot> cpressey: Assign a user-scope variable with ~/foo=1. Assign a server-scope variable with @bar=1.
23:25:02 <storkbot> elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
23:25:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://nastynets.com/secretstash/blogstuff/2010/10/fingeruser.png <-- uh yes? I mean the sexual jokes about that are *old*...
23:25:07 <elliott> cpressey: your language sucks ass
23:25:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but the specific wording is just too much.
23:25:22 <Vorpal> elliott, true it is a bit over the top
23:25:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Considering it's real.
23:25:45 <cpressey> elliott: if by "sucks ass" you mean "rules the ircwaves, too bad it's not documented", I agree
23:25:50 <Vorpal> elliott, the Swedish translation of OS X is quite harmless
23:26:15 <elliott> cpressey: make ~/ implicit :P
23:26:15 <cpressey> i didn't yhink that would work
23:26:29 <elliott> |~/loop=goto [~/B]~/loop[~/K]
23:26:35 <storkbot> elliott: Out of stack space! Well no, but I stopped it anyway.
23:26:45 <elliott> cpressey: goto is basically a retarded []
23:27:00 <elliott> |~/loop=[~/B][~/B]~/loop[~/K][~/K]
23:27:03 <storkbot> cpressey: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto
23:27:08 <Vorpal> elliott, why was it called finger in the first place?
23:27:33 <storkbot> elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
23:27:37 <Vorpal> elliott, whoever called it that presumably knows, unless he/she was drunk at the time or similar
23:27:37 <elliott> cpressey: why is that an error?
23:27:51 <cpressey> elliott: []-expansion is shallow, i think
23:28:07 <elliott> cpressey: then you can get rid of goto :p
23:28:19 <elliott> cpressey: or get rid of []
23:28:21 <storkbot> Vorpal: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
23:28:23 <elliott> doesn't goto do it all for you?
23:28:30 <storkbot> cpressey: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto
23:28:35 <storkbot> cpressey: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto
23:29:04 <storkbot> elliott: Assign a user-scope variable with ~/foo=1. Assign a server-scope variable with @bar=1.
23:29:06 <storkbot> elliott: All items in [brackets] are replaced by their value, in a recursive, depth-first manner.
23:29:07 <storkbot> elliott: To print a string, issue the command 'print string'.
23:29:08 <storkbot> elliott: To evaluate a string as a command, issue 'goto command'. This discards control context.
23:29:33 <cpressey> your loop would go to mine if... ach
23:29:33 <elliott> cpressey: ooh, it doesn't rename variables? naughty naughty!
23:29:46 <cpressey> "rename"? "variables"? these are all just strings
23:30:07 <cpressey> the contents of ~elliott/loop is "goto ~/loop"
23:30:49 <elliott> cpressey: it should auto-replace :D
23:31:25 <Sgeo> Is this some sort of ZipperFS bot?
23:32:02 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:33:33 <cheater99> hmmm, i'm not sure how the "task grouping" in gnome panel's app switcher works together with scroll-wheel browsing of open apps
23:33:49 <cheater99> i would expect the separate groups to expand dynamically when i'm doing that
23:33:52 <elliott> "one can cd into a lambda-term in bash" this is why oleg is hot
23:33:58 <cpressey> Sgeo: ......................... NO
23:34:22 <elliott> Sgeo probably doesn't mean the oleg thing.
23:34:30 <elliott> "… the zipper-based file system looks almost the same as the Unix file system. Unlike the latter, however, we offer: transactional semantics; undo of any file and directory operation; snapshots; statically guaranteed the strongest, repeatable read, isolation mode for clients; built-in traversal facility; and just the right behavior for cyclic directory references.
23:34:30 <elliott> We can easily change our file server to support NFS or 9P or other distributed file system protocol. We can traverse richer terms than mere finite maps with string keys. In particular, we can use lambda-terms as our file system: one can cd into a lambda-term in bash."
23:34:31 <cpressey> Sgeo: Just because you read about ZipperFS and just because my bot uses a vaguely unix-homedir-like syntax does NOT mean...
23:35:01 <Sgeo> <elliott> "one can cd into a lambda-term in bash" this is why oleg is hot
23:35:05 <Sgeo> That's what I meant
23:35:08 <cpressey> elliott: Sgeo was reading about it last night, so...
23:37:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, natural assumption for Sgeo you mean?
23:37:34 <cpressey> no, natural assumption that the ZipperFS he was referring to was the one he was reading about
23:37:50 <cpressey> the other assumption here is highly unnatural imo
23:37:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes that is what I meant too
23:38:01 <cpressey> perhaps it was more wishful thinking
23:38:10 <Sgeo> Well, I saw goto somecommand
23:38:27 <storkbot> Vorpal: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
23:39:07 <Sgeo> |alias goto ls
23:39:09 <storkbot> cpressey: Out of stack space! Well no, but I stopped it anyway.
23:39:36 <Vorpal> cpressey, you spent a lot of time on the error messages eh?
23:39:50 <Sgeo> And by ls I obviosly meant cd
23:40:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, link to source?
23:40:04 <Sgeo> and by obviosly I obviosly meant obviously
23:40:17 <cpressey> I... this isn't a filesystem, they're just variable scopes that have syntax inspired by a filesystem
23:40:21 <storkbot> cpressey: Assign a user-scope variable with ~/foo=1. Assign a server-scope variable with @bar=1.
23:40:31 <storkbot> cpressey: http://pastie.org/1254707
23:40:33 <elliott> cpressey: shouldn't it be /bar
23:40:43 <cpressey> elliott: for global: yes, it probably should
23:41:10 <cpressey> if it do that, i might as well simulate a filesystem, with ls and cd and all
23:41:27 <elliott> cpressey: have /source be one of the files there
23:41:43 <cpressey> there was also supposed to be message-level scope, but nothing is complex enough to use that yet
23:41:44 <elliott> cpressey: make changing it -- which root (you) can do -- reload the code in the Storklang implementation
23:42:11 <cpressey> elliott: that will be... not so straightforward yet
23:42:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:42:36 <cheater99> i have totally changed the way i work with linux. now the launchers are not at the top bar, they're at the bottom left in a grid. i feel like i'm upside down and a little weird.
23:42:44 <elliott> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=1994#comic this is amazing
23:43:09 <elliott> (protip for those who haven't read SMBC before: hover over red button)
23:44:21 <elliott> cpressey: dude have you got MS DOS 5 give it to me or die
23:44:31 <elliott> or i could just convert the IMAs
23:47:06 <elliott> "An .IMA file contains a raw dump of the content of a disk. This format is not compatible with the Disk Copy Fast format but is supported by multiple software vendors, and is the same format as IMG."
23:47:28 <elliott> oh right it doesn't extract
23:47:47 <elliott> oh i need the non-free version
23:48:32 * Sgeo remembers his mirror matter fantasies
23:49:31 <elliott> Sgeo: you fantasise about way too much
23:49:56 <Sgeo> It isn't sexual fantasies!
23:50:01 <Sgeo> It's sci-fi fantasy!
23:51:28 <Sgeo> There's nothing wrong with having an active imagination.
23:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, this shows the difference to xkcd quite well: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2006#comic
23:52:32 <Vorpal> elliott, xkcd could have done it, but the punchline would have been missing
23:52:50 <elliott> Vorpal: for once you said something amusing and intelligent! you are accepted into the club. but on a provisional basis only
23:53:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess I went over your head most of the other times ;P
23:53:52 <elliott> Vorpal: also, i reiterate, hover over the red button (you have no idea how many people don't notice this)
23:55:17 <cpressey> Does UK English really spell it "fantasise"? That looks way odd
23:58:17 <elliott> cpressey: also, it doesn't have ambiguity with sizing cans of Fanta
23:58:23 <elliott> got a point you've gotta admit
00:01:08 <Vorpal> elliott, should be sise not size of course
00:01:29 <elliott> cool ms-dos installation crashed
00:01:35 <Vorpal> but of course, English is not logical
00:02:06 <cpressey> elliott: MS-DOS on bare metal?
00:02:12 * elliott is installing MS-DOS 5.0! The best MS-DOS!
00:02:22 <elliott> Instant startup, all the features, NO VERSION 6 BULLSHIT
00:03:15 <Quadlex> Is working in a role that's purely maintenance bad for your career?
00:03:31 <Quadlex> I think it might be, after all the best way to develop skills is to watch others and practice
00:03:50 <Quadlex> As a full time maintenance dev, I neither get to write new code OR get to read best practice code
00:03:54 <elliott> Quadlex: This is hardly the best place to find people who think the professional programming "career" is any fun or worthwhile at all.
00:04:09 <elliott> Quadlex: Because we're all cynical bastards?
00:04:13 <Quadlex> I would think that this channel is the best place to get considered opinions
00:04:15 <elliott> And also because it generally is awful.
00:04:17 <Quadlex> That's why I'm asking you.
00:04:21 <cpressey> Quadlex: I can tell you what I think "they" think
00:04:32 <elliott> I think cpressey is the only active one who has programming as a career.
00:04:38 <elliott> And I'm pretty sure he hates everyone. :P
00:04:42 <Quadlex> Optimistic people tend to think that "Every problem is an Opportunity in Disguise!"
00:04:44 <elliott> SimonRC too but he isn't active
00:04:49 <Quadlex> Those people are fuckwits in disguise
00:04:52 <cpressey> Quadlex: "they" think yes, it is bad for your career, so you should volunteer to help out on a project that is writing new code, or something.
00:05:11 <elliott> Quadlex: more importantly, code maintenance sounds like the soul-suckingest job *ever*
00:05:16 <elliott> and it would kill any human
00:05:21 <Quadlex> I don't mind it where I work ATM
00:05:31 <Quadlex> Because there's a LOT of different systems here
00:05:45 <Quadlex> So I've got lots of new stuff to satisfy my ADD
00:06:09 <elliott> that's your only criterion?
00:06:43 <cpressey> And since "they" think this is true, and "they" are probably a major factor in whether your career goes anywhere, in that sense, it's probably true.
00:07:00 <cpressey> However, it is of course completely fucked logic.
00:07:36 <Quadlex> But it's not because I'm doing maintenance
00:07:42 <Quadlex> IT's because the management treat us like children
00:07:49 <Quadlex> And laud the useless fuckwits on the team
00:08:37 * Sgeo is currently looking at a career in programming
00:08:46 <Sgeo> Unless I abruptly switch to med school
00:09:12 <elliott> Sgeo: CS curriculum, academia, some twisted definition of profit
00:11:03 <cpressey> Quadlex: then the way to succeed in your career is to act like a useless fuckwit :)
00:11:44 <Gregor> Truly, people are the worst kind of people.
00:12:09 * coppro doesn't know what he'll do as a career
00:12:21 * Sgeo wonders if a programming job could help pay his way through medschool
00:12:33 <Sgeo> So I wouldn't have to rely on my dad's money
00:12:46 <elliott> fizzie: MS-DOS Shell: my god what is this
00:13:06 <elliott> Sgeo: I, uh, please don't go into anything medical.
00:13:35 <elliott> Nothing personal, I just don't want you anywhere near my body in any kind of even semi-dangerous situation :P
00:14:36 <cpressey> Sgeo: You like C#; this is a substantial advantage in the job market. moreso if you've actually undertaken a sizeable project in it.
00:15:13 <Sgeo> A lot of people like the "industry" languages
00:16:41 <cpressey> Quadlex: what language are you maintaining stuff in?
00:17:42 <Sgeo> And my relationship with C# isn't quite "like" as it is "lack of disdain"
00:18:14 <cpressey> Sgeo: browse through dice.com sometime to get a feel for what's out there. it might help you decide.
00:18:32 <cpressey> tech job ads are written by the lowest rung of humanity, btw
00:18:51 <cpressey> Spelling? Grammar? Non-contradictory objectives? Who needs THOSE?
00:19:28 <Sgeo> "I have a client in San Jose who needs a strong C# developer, but not from a UI perspective, it is more on the back end. This is a 3-4 month project"
00:19:40 <Sgeo> (as a bullet point)
00:21:14 <cpressey> Yes. I should have added "Context? Relevancy?"
00:22:01 <Sgeo> Another ad has "Exception handling" (expert) as a required skill
00:22:10 <cpressey> Interview pattern for hiring developers: 1) "How deep is your experience?" 2) Random, vaguely technical trivia questions 3) Personality test
00:23:20 <cpressey> Sgeo: And they probably keyword-search for that to winnow down the 1000's of resumes they receive. Result: AWESOMENESS.
00:23:55 <cpressey> Because, you know, someone who lists "Exception handling" as one of their skills on their resume has got to be quite awesome.
00:24:33 <cpressey> Oh, you can't go wrong with tech job ads if you're looking for WTFs.
00:25:35 <Sgeo> Is this supposed to repulse me from a career programming?
00:25:39 <Quadlex> cpressey: The job would be java
00:25:43 <Quadlex> So, another kiss of death:P
00:26:27 <Sgeo> "Must come from a named school with a degree in a related field. "
00:26:30 <Quadlex> But frankly I don't care, I can learn other languages
00:26:37 <Quadlex> Unlike most career programmers
00:26:39 <Sgeo> Yeah, my school is the school that must not be named
00:27:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:27:14 <Sgeo> pikhq, do you come from a named school?
00:27:16 <cpressey> Quadlex: Java, yeah, is, like, special.
00:27:58 <Quadlex> I'm still amazed, daily, by how many career programmers can't solve problems or learn new things
00:28:34 <Sgeo> I prefer to find solutions online rather than attempt to reinvent the wheel, but I will if I have to
00:28:41 <cpressey> Even C# seems less... cloistered?... than Java. You can go to places that are flexible, look for smarts, reward creativity, etc, then look at their division that uses Java and it's just this -- flatline.
00:29:44 <Sgeo> I love learning new things, though
00:29:48 <Sgeo> I live and breath learning
00:30:16 <pikhq> Sgeo: Whaddya mean?
00:30:34 <cpressey> pikhq: from a job ad that Sgeo found: < Sgeo> "Must come from a named school with a degree in a related field. "
00:30:47 <Sgeo> http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=302&dockey=xml/1/8/1837ca6a9fa320660a3471828346955f@endecaindex&source=19&FREE_TEXT=C%23&rating=99
00:30:56 <pikhq> cpressey: The pfargtle?
00:31:02 <augur> πwe should play some games together some time
00:31:38 -!- cpressey has changed nick to cpressey|away.
00:32:36 <augur> that was addressed to you, πkhq.
00:33:18 <pikhq> augur: Why, pray tell, do you insist on calling me πkhq?
00:33:48 <augur> because i tried to tab complete your name before but i forgot that pi for me tab completes as the pi symbol
00:33:52 <Sgeo> I don't have my compose key any more!
00:34:07 <pikhq> hį'ke'tikiȳû, I could understand. But that?
00:34:20 <augur> what language is that
00:34:53 <Chachi> how do I rig a key on my keyboard to be a compose key?
00:34:59 <pikhq> Surely you could pattern match my completely bizarre diacritics by now. :P
00:35:12 <augur> thats not japanese.
00:36:41 <pikhq> ピッケッチキュー There, in a more normal orthography.
00:38:28 <Vorpal> Chachi, the normal way
00:38:44 <Chachi> Explain further, I am not so great with hardware/
00:38:58 <Vorpal> Chachi, I assume you use linux or *bsd
00:38:59 <pikhq> (¸ maps to the 半濁点, ` maps to the 濁点, ^ maps to 長音符, and ¯ indicates a 拗音)
00:39:13 <Vorpal> Chachi, so what window manager or desktop environment?
00:39:32 <Chachi> I am a user of Windows
00:39:40 <Vorpal> Chachi, don't think it is possible then
00:39:49 <pikhq> pikketchikyû, if you *must* use a more pedestrian romanisation scheme.
00:40:13 <Vorpal> Chachi, well that is what you get from using such a crappy OS :P
00:40:28 <augur> oh thats a handakuten not dakuten
00:40:58 <pikhq> What, you've not noticed me talking about or using my bizarro personal romanisation scheme for Japanese before?
00:41:00 <augur> now i vaguely understand your romanization schema
00:42:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, why do you use a non-standard one?
00:42:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because I dislike the standard ones.
00:42:31 <pikhq> Especially the primary standard, Hepburn.
00:42:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, on what grounds?
00:42:42 <pikhq> Which is actually *ambiguous*...
00:43:19 <augur> under hook on the vowel to indicate handakuten on the associated kana, apostrophes for small tsu, macron over y's to denote small versions of the associated kana
00:43:27 <augur> and a fairly standard carat for vowel length
00:43:43 <pikhq> augur: And grave on the vowel for dakuten.
00:44:46 <augur> aww not just, completely and utterly.
00:46:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: Hepburn and Kunrei-shiki (ISO 3602) make no distinction between づ and ず or between ぢ and じ. Nihon-shiki (ISO 3602 strict) is the only mainstream scheme that doesn't possess such an ambiguity for common Japanese text.
00:46:13 <Sgeo> elliott, I will, in fact, in some emergency situations, do CPR
00:46:48 <Sgeo> In dangerous situations, I may end up near your body. Hypothetically, I mean
00:46:50 <pikhq> Vorpal: They *all* suffer from inadequacies when attempting to encode somewhat less common uses of kana.
00:47:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: Especially noticable with transcriptions of non-Japanese words into Japanese.
00:50:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: Random, contrived example: the transcription of "fabric" into Japanese script could not then be re-transcribed into the Roman alphabet using any of those schemes.
00:50:51 <Gregor> "That's a rat hat?" "And poorly made one. Even by rat hat standards."
00:51:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Whereas in mine, it's: huāhùri'ku.
00:51:26 * Sgeo breaks elliott's ribs
00:51:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Is that just so you could get close to me?
00:52:07 <pikhq> elliott: "Just a bit."
00:52:31 <elliott> <augur> aww not just, completely and utterly.
00:52:34 <elliott> that's what i didn't understand
00:52:54 <pikhq> I dunno what's so cute about it, myself.
00:53:30 <elliott> what's "kawaii ne" in it :P
00:53:54 * elliott notes that oerjan has been absent for quite a while
00:54:06 <pikhq> elliott: kawaî ne.
00:54:33 <elliott> pikhq: so hepburn:xx = pikhq:^x?
00:54:49 <pikhq> elliott: Only for the vowel i.
00:54:59 <pikhq> elliott: Hepburn uses ^ or ¯ for the other vowels.
00:55:05 <pikhq> (depending on revision)
00:55:31 <elliott> i like how zzo38 goes on about unicode romanisations being useless
00:55:41 <elliott> when all of them are non-latin :)
00:55:43 <pikhq> elliott: And common use of Japanese words in English omit the diacritics from Hepburn.
00:56:09 <pikhq> elliott: For instance, it's Tôkyô in Hepburn but Tokyo in English.
00:56:22 <elliott> pikhq: I think you'll find *Tōkyō.
00:56:59 <pikhq> elliott: There's three different forms of Hepburn. Traditional, revised, and modified.
00:57:14 <elliott> pikhq: is Kunrei-shiki better than Nihon-shiki, or?
00:57:27 <elliott> oh, apparently ISO 3602 = Kunrei-shiki
00:57:39 <elliott> pikhq: I want to learn Japanese. :p
00:58:02 <elliott> pikhq: oh, or are both ISO 3602?
00:58:02 <pikhq> Kunrei-shiki is Nihon-shiki except not making any distinctions between a few phonemes that are no longer distinguished in spoken Standard Japanese.
00:58:14 <pikhq> (they *are* distinguished in writing and in some accents of Japanese)
00:58:22 <pikhq> elliott: Nihon-shiki is ISO 3602 Strict.
00:58:46 <elliott> and kunrei-shiki is ISO 3602 Lax, so to speak :P
00:59:09 <pikhq> Aaargh. Wait, ^ has never been used for long vowels in Hepburn.
00:59:17 <pikhq> That's only ISO 3602.
00:59:26 <elliott> I have never seen Tokyo written that way before.
00:59:35 <elliott> Yay, I have DOS 5.0 in QEMU! ^_^
00:59:37 <pikhq> It's entirely valid Nihon-shiki.
00:59:54 <pikhq> And it's tôkiȳô in pikhq.
01:00:02 <Sgeo> elliott, what's so great about DOS 5.0 over DOS 6.whatever?
01:00:15 <elliott> Sgeo: DOS 6 seems to start up a bit slower for me
01:00:36 <elliott> Version 6.0 (Retail) - Online help through QBASIC. Disk compression and antivirus included.
01:00:36 <elliott> Version 6.2 (Retail) - Microsoft and IBM alternate versions, IBM has 6.1, 6.3
01:00:36 <elliott> Version 6.21 (Retail) - Stacker-infringing DBLSPACE removed.
01:00:36 <elliott> Version 6.22 (Retail) - New DRVSPACE compression.
01:00:56 <elliott> Sgeo: tl;dr "Stupid help system! Disk compression thing that broke Windows entirely. Probably-useless antivirus."
01:01:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Whereas 4 lacks the full-screen EDIT program.
01:01:51 <pikhq> Hepburn is a pretty strange Romanisation scheme.
01:02:06 <elliott> pikhq: designed by a christian missionary. figures
01:02:36 <pikhq> elliott: And it only makes sense at all for English speakers.
01:03:18 <elliott> pikhq: "Microsoft's licensing spokesperson "Rich H." told me, on 2-8-00, that anyone with a valid license to use any recent version of Microsoft's operating systems (Windows 95/98, NT) is also licensed to use any older version of Microsoft DOS products, and can obtain DOS 6.22 media for nominal cost from their supplemental materials unit. I haven't heard this before, so you should confirm this for your
01:03:20 * Sgeo should go to sleep soon
01:03:45 <elliott> pikhq: therefore downloading and not uploading an old DOS version is perfectly OK if you have Windows
01:04:15 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, because the license conditions in 2000 are clearly identical to the license conditions in 2010.
01:04:32 <elliott> Gregor: They can't exactly *revoke* licenses retroactively.
01:04:44 <elliott> Gregor: If you have Windows 95, 98 or NT, you have a license to use older DOS versions.
01:04:51 <Sgeo> I might have a 98 license lying around
01:05:06 <Gregor> elliott: Well, for one they can in fact revoke licenses retroactively, but for two Idonno if we've established what licenses pikhq has :P
01:05:10 <Sgeo> That's assuming that the rumor is true
01:05:22 <elliott> you mean quote from microsoft spokesman
01:05:24 <Sgeo> And I'm going to be learning CPR tomorrow
01:05:26 <Gregor> More to the point: Nobody effing cares 8-D
01:05:30 <pikhq> If you have Windows 95, 98, ME, NT, 2000, XP, you already *possess* DOS.
01:05:34 <elliott> Gregor: (1) well, yes, but (2) i never said pikhq had those licenses :P
01:05:34 <Gregor> Also, FreeDOS is better.
01:05:38 <elliott> pikhq: Old, shitty DOS that can't boot.
01:05:40 <Sgeo> elliott, quote from someone claiming to quote a Microsoft spokesman
01:05:52 <elliott> http://www.emsps.com/oldtools/msdosv.htm you can see how shady this website is
01:05:54 <elliott> it's probably a 9/11 jew conspiracy
01:06:03 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, no, it's actually entirely bootable.
01:06:19 <elliott> pikhq: You can't boot XP without any Windows components, can you?
01:06:23 <pikhq> elliott: It's the "create a boot disk" option in the GUI formatter. Honest-to-god.
01:06:34 <elliott> pikhq: But the boot disks lack most DOS tools.
01:06:43 <pikhq> elliott: It still installs DOS onto a disk.
01:06:57 <elliott> pikhq: DOS the kernel + COMMAND.COM
01:07:20 <Gregor> What is it you're trying to do that needs MS-DOS and not FreeDOS anyway? :P
01:07:37 <elliott> OH LOOK, MS-DOS 5 has no "move" command
01:07:46 <Sgeo> Gregor, what is it you're trying to accomplish by making a new programming language?
01:07:49 <elliott> Gregor: FreeDOS scares me! It is too bloated and too unfun.
01:07:59 <elliott> Gregor: Can't a man want simplicity in his life?
01:08:15 <elliott> ...seriously Sgeo that was a *terrible* analogy
01:08:32 <Sgeo> I refuse to think so
01:08:36 <Gregor> elliott: If you install a "full" version of FreeDOS, yes, it's bloated, but the subset of FreeDOS that is equivalent to MS-DOS isn't appreciably bigger ... perhaps even smaller.
01:08:36 <Sgeo> Both of them are just for fun
01:08:44 <elliott> Gregor: But also entirely less fun.
01:09:03 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, dude, you know why I'm doing this? So I can use DEBUG.COM to assemble my DOS (Dumbfounding Operating System) kernel.
01:09:07 <Sgeo> Unless Plof is meant to be srs bsns
01:09:18 <elliott> Gregor: You don't get that kind of authenticity with FreeDOS!
01:09:32 <Gregor> Except that there IS a compatible DEBUG.COM that comes with FreeDOS.
01:09:43 <Gregor> I ... have used it >_>
01:09:46 <elliott> Gregor: Compatible, yes. But not authentic.
01:09:57 <elliott> Gregor: Like watching Casablanca in colour.
01:11:14 <Sgeo> When will Microsoft name something .org ?
01:11:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Y would they do that?
01:12:19 * Sgeo doesn't get it :(
01:12:27 <elliott> Sgeo: What happens when you .org the Y?
01:12:42 <Sgeo> elliott, you're turning into me
01:12:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Another program that might be in org format is the ASM assembler.
01:13:05 <elliott> (In the grim future Windows, file extensions come before the filenames.)
01:13:06 <Sgeo> Except elliott's jokes are funnier
01:13:18 <elliott> Well, barely. Only compared to yours.
01:13:51 <elliott> Gregor: But dude, 6.22 is so much slower to start than 5 :(
01:13:59 <elliott> 5 is instant! 6.22 takes whole SECONDS!
01:14:12 <elliott> Gregor: Who needs extended memory?!
01:14:32 <Gregor> Extended memory? Who needs directories? *installs DOS 1*
01:14:52 <elliott> Gregor: I'd be fine with HIMEM if it didn't try and check all my memory at bootup :P
01:15:03 * elliott disables SMARTDRV; no need to cache when my OS does that for me
01:15:44 <Sgeo> Why anyone would use vi is beyond me
01:15:56 <Sgeo> I mean, besides to use a non-bloated editor
01:16:15 <Sgeo> Maybe on extremely low memory systems or something
01:17:04 <elliott> Sgeo: I hate you and think you should die.
01:17:07 <elliott> Gregor: Join the chant with me!
01:17:17 <elliott> Sgeo: also lol at the idea that vim isn't bloated
01:17:47 <Sgeo> So instead of little point to vim's existence, there's none! What about vi? Isn't there some sort of difference?
01:17:51 <elliott> "FILES=30" I really hope this is the maximum number of files on disk.
01:18:06 <elliott> Sgeo: You're retarded and have no idea what you're saying, how editors are designed, and how to use them.
01:18:32 <Sgeo> There's something wrong with being an emacs person?
01:18:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Do you actually use Emacs all the time?
01:18:54 <Sgeo> If I'm at a console, yes
01:18:55 <elliott> And no, but there's something very wrong with not *understanding* why vi is like it is, and why that's a good thing.
01:19:04 <elliott> lol @ the idea that emacs is a console editor
01:20:47 <catseye> unlimited virtual desktops + HUD of all desktops + a frame that stays on all desktops (never overlaps other windows) + hotkey brings you to most-used desktop
01:21:41 <elliott> catseye: not as good as my infinite virtual space
01:22:07 <catseye> elliott: well, obviously. nothing's as good as your tools
01:22:20 <elliott> http://www.xs4all.nl/~maribu/zeurkous/download/mirror/dosidle/DOSIDLE.ASM i cannot like any assembler with a struct syntax
01:22:29 <pikhq> I love how DOS is entirely capable of running 64-bit programs.
01:22:32 * elliott gets the feeling that catseye is starting to hate him :)
01:22:39 <elliott> almost tried to wget in dos, lol
01:22:53 <Sgeo> elliott, use a font you're not used to?
01:22:53 <elliott> pikhq: do you know how to expand a qcow2 to a raw image?
01:22:56 <Sgeo> Might that help?
01:23:01 <pikhq> elliott: What, you dislike masm and/or nasm?
01:23:22 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that the DOS font is likely not changable
01:23:28 <pikhq> elliott: qemu-img's man page should have something.
01:23:40 <elliott> pikhq: actually my real question is: how can i get a file from ~ to DOS oh i could make a floppy image
01:23:43 <elliott> thanks for reminding me pikhq!
01:23:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: That is, in fact, how locales work.
01:23:59 <elliott> pikhq: how do i make mkfs.vfat(1) use fat-16 :p
01:24:26 <pikhq> elliott: mkdosfs -F 16
01:24:37 <elliott> pikhq: were floppies 16 or 12? i forget
01:25:15 <pikhq> But DOS *should* handle a FAT-16 filesystem on a floppy disk just fine, so long as it's new enough to *have* FAT-16 support.
01:25:45 <Sgeo> When I was a little kid, I imagined "COS" -- Computer Operating System
01:25:53 <Sgeo> As a contrast to Disk Operating System
01:26:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:28:16 <catseye> Chachi: there is a way to set up entry of non-ascii characters in Windows -- i think they call them "input modes"? Youll have to research it with Google, though.
01:29:10 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/dos$ /sbin/mkfs.vfat -F 12 host.img
01:29:10 <elliott> mkfs.vfat 3.0.9 (31 Jan 2010)
01:29:38 <elliott> <Vorpal> Chachi, don't think it is possible then
01:29:41 <elliott> compose is possible on windows
01:29:49 <elliott> but his site is down so i can't link it :P
01:30:28 <elliott> Vorpal: it actually supported regular XCompose files
01:30:40 <elliott> Vorpal: it was a Lua script that translated XCompose to AutoHotKey_L (unicode fork of autohotkey)
01:30:47 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, well, what else can capture keys like that :P
01:31:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well the windows API presumably allows it
01:31:13 <elliott> Vorpal: there's a reason AutoHotKey and the like exist: that's a bitch.
01:31:22 <Vorpal> (of course that is not *terribly* useful)
01:34:03 <Sgeo> I don't even want to think about the stupidity that allows this to exist http://www.sboobies.com/?cmd&file=./../../../../../../../../etc/shadow (NSFW)
01:34:08 <elliott> thanks for the ASCII penis.
01:34:30 <elliott> Sgeo was googling for boobies but he decided that /etc/shadow was hotter
01:34:41 <Sgeo> It was linked in a comment on Reddit
01:35:26 <Sgeo> Somehow I failed to notice that the link was real when I wrote a reply
01:35:40 <elliott> pikhq: "File allocation table bad, drive A"
01:35:57 <elliott> pikhq: the floppy disk is too big i think
01:36:14 <Gregor> (That's what she said)
01:36:51 <elliott> Gregor: worst floppy-related innuendo ever
01:37:21 <elliott> Gregor: (that's what she said)
01:37:46 <pikhq> Oh baby, /etc/shadow.
01:38:31 <elliott> "Oh baby, etc shadow." "But it's only three and a half inches floppy."
01:39:07 <pikhq> Twelve inches floppy baby.
01:39:10 <catseye> I am totally installing Falcon from source on this NetBSD box, BITCH.
01:39:27 <catseye> (directed, again, at no one here -- rather, the Fates.)
01:39:40 <Sgeo> RIP catseye's sanity
01:39:57 <elliott> pikhq: I would like to see that floppy .............. diskette, because it sure is big.
01:39:58 <catseye> They will punish me by making me be the pkgsrc maintainer for lang/falcon, when it comes to be
01:40:20 <pikhq> elliott: Yes. But when he was 1, his mom killed his dad in front of him, and he has been insane ever since.
01:40:24 <elliott> NOTE: WE HAVE ALL THE MATURITY OF A TWO-YEAR-OLD
01:40:52 <elliott> I wonder what WINA20.386 is.
01:40:55 <pikhq> elliott: Such a shame floppies only went up to 8 inches.
01:40:58 <elliott> It looks suspiciously Windows and floppy.
01:41:06 <elliott> pikhq: But with viagra [...]!
01:41:45 <pikhq> WINA20.386? That's what lets Windows go into protected mode and run the virtual Windows machine and several virtual DOS machines.
01:42:02 <catseye> < elliott> catseye: Confirm/deny?
01:42:22 <elliott> pikhq: Then I don't need it, yup?
01:42:36 <elliott> Also: Moving things to C:\DOS -- smart or stupid?
01:43:14 <catseye> elliott: Yes, you see, I was making fun of your simple question by play-implying that I am not very mature.
01:43:25 <elliott> catseye: MINE WAS META-HUMOUR
01:43:29 <pikhq> elliott: Solidly meh, actually.
01:43:35 <elliott> Because I never met one of the four or so humors I didn't like.
01:43:39 <elliott> Or was it humours even then?!
01:43:47 <elliott> pikhq: Why is it solidly meh? XD
01:44:00 <pikhq> elliott: Doesn't matter. At all.
01:44:18 <elliott> pikhq: Would YOU move DOSIDLE.EXE there?!?!??!?!
01:44:23 <elliott> Would you STEAL a KITTEN?!
01:44:43 <pikhq> Bweheheh. The 8 inch floppy was marketed in terms of the number of punchcards you could put on there.
01:44:50 <pikhq> elliott: No, but I would download a kitten.
01:44:59 <elliott> pikhq: Would YOU move DOSIDLE.EXE there?!?!??!?!
01:45:04 <pikhq> elliott: Sure, I guess.
01:45:13 <elliott> THAT'S LIKE DOWNLOADING A KITTEN ;__;
01:45:24 <pikhq> elliott: I'd also download a Kitten.
01:45:33 <elliott> pikhq: WHOOPS YOU CAN'T LOL
01:46:05 <Sgeo> I should do some homework
01:46:11 <Sgeo> Then do something resembling sleep
01:46:29 <pikhq> elliott: うん、可愛さがあるね。
01:46:33 <catseye> I am so going to hack blackbox to add the Gnome virtual desktop slidey keys to it
01:46:43 <pikhq> (yes, it possesses cuteness.)
01:46:50 <catseye> I am so going to install rxvt-unicode so I can see what pikhq is saying
01:46:57 <elliott> catseye: Or just a graphical client
01:47:02 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Bweheheh. The 8 inch floppy was marketed in terms of the number of punchcards you could put on there. <-- awesome! How many was it?
01:47:04 <elliott> catseye: (or you could just use uxterm)
01:47:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I would have expected like, 20 or so
01:47:46 <Vorpal> ah you were making it up
01:47:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: Pretty sure 20 was the number, but I can't find the actual number ATM.
01:48:03 <elliott> I love how common Apache 1.3.37 is.
01:48:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, heh, I guess I'm good at guessing
01:48:45 <elliott> Vorpal: to be fair it's like 1/4 the size
01:48:54 <elliott> so for a punch card-sized bunch of floppies you're getting like
01:49:02 <Vorpal> they should market hdds in number of punchcards!
01:49:27 <elliott> Vorpal: "My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it."
01:49:47 <Vorpal> elliott, archaic units I presume
01:49:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I never heard of them though
01:50:19 <pikhq> A 3½" floppy disk is not 3.5 inches.
01:50:27 <catseye> I... Falcon doesn't build on NetBSD
01:50:40 <catseye> /home/catseye/build/Falcon-0.9.6.6/engine/signals_posix.cpp:119: error: 'SIGRTMIN' was not declared in this scope
01:50:52 <Vorpal> first floppy listed by wikipedia is "8-inch - IBM 23FD (read-only)"
01:51:14 <elliott> Vorpal: It's 504 gallons per mile.
01:51:23 <catseye> this is apparently POSIX, though
01:51:26 <pikhq> Not to mention a 1.44MB floppy disk only stores 1.40 MiB.
01:51:38 <Vorpal> 79.7 kiB, first read-write was 175 kB
01:51:44 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Simpson said it, anyway.
01:51:52 <elliott> Frink's web interface is down.
01:53:08 <catseye> |tell Phantom_Hoover I AM HACKING AT FALCON'S SOURCE CODE!
01:53:39 <Vorpal> catseye, how horrible is it?
01:53:50 <Sgeo> catseye, why would you deliberately do this?
01:54:59 <elliott> catseye: ew, dosidle switches start with -!
01:55:21 <elliott> catseye: proposal: "tell" becomes something like
01:55:29 <elliott> |append ~Phantom_Hoover/inbox Hello, world!
01:55:29 <storkbot> elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
01:55:37 <pikhq> elliott: Fun fact: / is a valid path seperator on DOS.
01:56:05 <pikhq> elliott: And has been as long as it's had path seperators.
01:56:15 <Vorpal> elliott, that syntax is a bit cumbersome
01:56:27 <elliott> Vorpal: but storkbot isn't about uncumbersomeness!
01:56:34 <catseye> Vorpal: I am. Vorpal: I only looked long enough to add #include <signal.h> to a file. Sgeo: Because I am crazy. elliott: fascinating
01:56:35 <elliott> |~Phantom_Hoover/inbox+=Hello, world!
01:56:36 <storkbot> elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
01:56:36 <Vorpal> elliott, but if our goal isn't about being practical, then fine
01:57:10 <elliott> http://h3g3m0n.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/qemu-win3111.png
01:57:14 <catseye> Vorpal is on the PGM team for storkbot
01:57:15 <Vorpal> elliott, weird, I thought I typed "the goal"
01:57:18 <Quadlex> I should get some work done
01:57:43 <Vorpal> Quadlex, REFERENCE NOTED :P
01:58:26 <Vorpal> elliott, invent backstory for minesweeper
01:58:32 <elliott> catseye: Ironic that SP\ASM's zip isn't 8.3, and when expanded it results in a directory which isn't 8.3.
01:58:36 <catseye> Vorpal: Program Management.
01:58:47 <Sgeo> Why are you here?
01:58:48 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, it would be so silly
01:58:48 <catseye> The "G" might stand for something too. I forget.
01:59:05 <elliott> Program -- Great -- Management!
01:59:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you are a soldier, send out to clear a mine field. However your detection equipment is very poor. You have a probe you stick into the ground and it gives you a crude proximity value. If too close it has a big chance of setting off the mine.
01:59:58 <Vorpal> Like the plot/backstory?
02:00:20 <catseye> /usr/include/sys/signal.h:#define SIGRTMIN 33 /* Kernel only; not exposed to userland yet */
02:00:32 <elliott> pikhq: there's even a "port" of it to modern windows classic themes :D
02:00:36 <catseye> Falcon only builds on "real time" OSes.
02:00:59 <catseye> Well, it requires SIGRTMIN, which is a Posix "real time" signal of some sort.
02:01:10 <elliott> catseye: I thnk SP\ASM is the WORST SOFTWARE EVER
02:01:13 <catseye> In NetBSD, for whatever reason, ONLY THE KERNEL CODE KNOWS THIS SIGNAL.
02:01:33 <elliott> catseye: just #define SIGRTMIN 33 in a falcon header somewhere and get on with life :P
02:01:36 <elliott> Sgeo: you don't want to know
02:01:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, slow with clicking links eh?
02:01:43 <catseye> conclusion: Must Deeper Hack!
02:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, it is quite absurd indeed
02:02:08 <Vorpal> elliott, uh <elliott> http://h3g3m0n.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/qemu-win3111.png
02:02:12 <Sgeo> I just found the link
02:02:20 <Sgeo> It wasn't labelled as Hotdog Stand
02:02:23 <pikhq> elliott: You are an ordinary man, trying to live your life after the great Mine Wars. Unfortunately, your only hint of mines is the bizarre Mine Numbers, which a crazy scientist for the Reds invented via genetic engineering.
02:02:38 <pikhq> elliott: If you can clear the area of mines, then you have a chance of getting a good night's sleep tonight.
02:02:53 <elliott> You start a new game after that.
02:02:56 <elliott> EVERYONE MUST BE PROTECTED
02:03:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, awesome idea too
02:03:12 <pikhq> elliott: That's the next day's work.
02:03:17 <catseye> http://pastie.org/1256956 (WARNING FALCON CODE)
02:03:32 <catseye> they put the #ifdef in stupid place.
02:03:41 <catseye> i could submit this change as a PATCH to them
02:04:43 <Sgeo> Surely the practical effect of fixing it is incredibly limited
02:04:57 <Sgeo> Unless every single nanosecond counts
02:04:57 <catseye> Sgeo: the practical effect of the whole file seems pretty limited
02:05:10 <catseye> it is introducing builtin identifiers which don't seem to be implemented yet
02:05:27 <elliott> catseye: just try and convince me that DEBUG isn't the best program ever
02:05:53 <catseye> elliott: i'm afraid i can't do that, dave
02:07:51 <Vorpal> elliott, the size difference is stunning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Floppy_Disk_Drive_8_inch.jpg
02:08:21 <catseye> Sgeo: No, I'm wrong; that's not what it does.
02:08:29 <elliott> Vorpal: omg i want that so fucking much
02:08:38 <elliott> floppies feel crap, you know?
02:08:46 <elliott> but that... i would totally not feel bad about putting that in a drive and using it
02:08:55 <Vorpal> elliott, the large one. But which way should you mount it in your computer?
02:08:58 <catseye> Sgeo: The practical effect of fixing it is to get it to build on NetBSD (outside the kernel)
02:09:02 <elliott> Vorpal: PROBABLY VERTICALLY
02:09:09 <elliott> catseye: FALCON KERNEL MODULE
02:09:56 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, think of the little sanity he has left
02:10:27 <elliott> how do you use DEBUG to disassemble? :P
02:14:01 <elliott> ...doesn't work in NT cmd though :)
02:14:04 <elliott> type null >foo works there
02:14:07 <catseye> where do they get off calling David Livingstone "Mr."?
02:14:30 <Vorpal> elliott, SEE THE INSANITY YOU CAUSED!
02:15:01 <Vorpal> elliott, <catseye> where do they get off calling David Livingstone "Mr."?
02:15:27 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Livingstone
02:16:44 <catseye> Vorpal: YES THEY CALL HIM 'Mr.' IN THEIR EXAMPLE CODE ON THEIR WEBPAGE
02:17:06 <catseye> "Mr. Livingstone, I presume?" THIS IS SO WRONG, YOU SEE?
02:17:12 <Sgeo> catseye, um... why would it make a difference?
02:17:16 <Sgeo> Compiler complaints?
02:17:34 <catseye> Sgeo: Yes. See above. NetBSD SIGRTMIN etc etc.
02:17:39 <Vorpal> catseye, file a bug report
02:18:16 <catseye> Maybe I'll let Phantom_Hoover file the bug report.
02:25:41 <elliott> catseye: How bizarre; it seems that what you do with PL\ASM *is* required.
02:25:51 <elliott> You can't write to a zero-byte COM properly with debug.
02:26:00 <catseye> elliott: imagine that, me doing something necessary to accomplish a goal
02:26:16 <elliott> catseye: EVERYTHING YOU DO IS WRONG
02:26:24 -!- catseye has changed nick to catseye_.
02:26:30 <elliott> catseye_: MORESO WITH THE UNDERSCORE
02:28:19 <pikhq> catseye_: How dare you.
02:28:41 -!- catseye has joined.
02:29:01 * Quadlex hands Vorpal his card, Quadlex, esq; Grue and Snark Hunter Extrodinare; {Boojums Extra}
02:29:40 <elliott> catseye: âêérty;A@~ææ@ł¹²³
02:29:41 <catseye_> I can't get their falcon bot to run because it can't find the regex libs.
02:29:55 <catseye> Uh, so yeah, I don't think urxvt works.
02:30:08 <catseye> Unless you're messing with me.
02:30:59 <elliott> C:\>debug C:\DOS\DEBUG.EXE
02:31:08 <elliott> catseye: ¹²³ is superscript 123
02:31:27 <catseye> Might need font, might need, who knows, I don't care.
02:31:36 -!- catseye has quit (Client Quit).
02:31:59 -!- catseye_ has changed nick to catseye.
02:32:08 <elliott> catseye: the xfce terminal is pretty lightweight andn ice
02:32:55 <elliott> hmm, debug seems useless for debugging but nice for everything else :)
02:32:58 <elliott> now to try and get it to disassemble
02:33:25 <catseye> you have to configure it during build to build the regex "feather" for Falcon
02:33:39 <catseye> i overuse the word horrible, too.
02:33:59 <elliott> but i'm trying to cut down on it
02:34:03 <elliott> i use it a ludicrous amount
02:36:49 <elliott> catseye: did you ever use SP\ASM for any actual program?
02:38:05 <elliott> catseye: surely you could hack up labels
02:38:46 <elliott> catseye: I mean from within debug :)
02:38:52 <Gregor> Making the code I wrote at Microsoft run on Linux: Pretty epic?
02:39:02 <catseye> yeayeah soon i'll have falcon with FEATHERS!
02:39:12 <elliott> Gregor: Other things developed at Microsoft Research that run on Linux: GHC
02:39:25 <elliott> Gregor: I like how we've all given up on WebSplat.
02:39:43 <Gregor> elliott: I haven't but I have lots and lots of other things to do. Also, GHC wasn't DEVELOPED at MSR, it was folded into MSR.
02:39:51 <elliott> It IS developed at MSR, though.
02:39:59 <Gregor> Well, yeah, but it didn't start there :P
02:40:07 <elliott> Gregor: And even then it's more like "people at MSR are paid to develop it", not "it is now an MSR project" :P
02:42:15 <Gregor> I'm surprised by how compatible Mono is with Visual Studio's "solution" format.
02:44:20 <pikhq> Doesn't Microsoft Research have a few patches in Linux?
02:44:37 <elliott> pikhq: SSSSH DON'T LET THE LAWYERS HEAR YOU
02:45:07 <Gregor> You guys are totally not helping my triumph :P
02:45:31 <elliott> Gregor: for maximum dissonance release it under the gpl3
02:45:40 <elliott> hmm, i say "the gpl" but "gpl[23]"
02:45:41 <Gregor> elliott: That I do not have the right to do :P
02:47:02 <pikhq> Gregor: What license?
02:48:31 <elliott> pikhq: Microsoft Public Sperm-Ownership License
02:49:07 <catseye> ERROR:terminal-app.c:1450:terminal_app_init: assertion failed: (app->default_profile_id != NULL)
02:49:07 <Gregor> pikhq: This Microsoft Research License Agreement
02:49:16 <Gregor> Err, THE bleh bleh bleh
02:49:25 <elliott> catseye: gtk apps fail assertions all the time
02:49:39 <catseye> elliott: no starty, no worky.
02:49:41 <Gregor> pikhq: It's only licensed to me and my advisor.
02:49:46 <catseye> [2] Abort trap (core dumped) gnome-terminal
02:49:50 <elliott> Gregor: I LIKE HOW MICROSOFT OWNS YOUR SHIT
02:50:05 <Gregor> elliott: I did write it at Microsoft. While being paid by them. Paid a lot.
02:50:05 <elliott> catseye: maybe you should use Debian/kFreeBSD instead or something
02:50:31 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
02:50:34 * Gregor forgets his scruples while rolling in piles of money.
02:50:38 <catseye> yay falbot found the regex libs and managed to crash on its OWN code instead!!!
02:51:02 <catseye> i'm just swimming in fail here right now
02:51:03 <Gregor> pikhq_: It's a "Microsoft Research License Agreement"
02:51:12 <Gregor> pikhq_: It's only licensed to me and my advisor.
02:51:14 <catseye> elliott: xfce will save my soul!
02:51:20 <elliott> catseye: just install xfce entirely
02:51:38 <pikhq_> Gregor: That explains why I can't find details — it's not a Shared Source license at all.
02:51:40 <elliott> "all Jumps must be to hexadecimal addresses (no labels can be used)"
02:51:47 <catseye> elliott: YOU CALLED IT BORING
02:51:54 <elliott> catseye: it sort of is! but in an excellent way
02:52:03 <elliott> i mean it sucks of COURSE but it's also nice.
02:53:16 <pikhq_> catseye: XFCE is definitely the best desktop environment out there right now.
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02:53:55 <pikhq> Primarily because it doesn't do anything completely and utterly retarded.
02:54:07 <pikhq> Which, surprisingly, goes a long way in software.
02:54:17 <catseye> catseyecatseyecatseye$ falcon ./falbot.fal
02:54:17 <catseye> ERROR: error while scanning directory
02:54:22 <elliott> pikhq: It does have its own configuration database though. Sigh.
02:54:27 <catseye> NEVER MIND why my prompt has my username x3
02:54:28 <elliott> catseye: please tell me that's your actual prompt
02:54:38 <catseye> elliott: that is the result of . ~/.shrc twice
02:54:45 <elliott> catseye: maybe it does like
02:54:46 <catseye> elliott: sorry to break your heart
02:55:04 <elliott> catseye: oh, so that $ vs # is preserved
02:55:05 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, well, ... That's actually pretty stupid.
02:55:27 <pikhq> elliott: What's wrong with using files on "everything is a file" fucking UNIX?
02:55:38 <elliott> pikhq: nothing's been a file since networking and ioctl came along
02:55:41 <catseye> catseyecatseyecatseye$ falcon ./falbot.fal
02:55:42 <elliott> also, every process function
02:55:42 <catseye> ERROR: error while scanning directory /home/pnema/dev/falcon/falcon-website/live/data
02:55:50 <catseye> yes i'd say this software is usable
02:55:59 <pikhq> elliott: Still the motto, even if it is a bit of a lie.
02:56:22 <elliott> pikhq: linux is maybe 2x "everything is a file" as windows is
02:56:24 <elliott> which is still pretty terrible
02:56:26 <catseye> good things about Falcon: makes Python look acceptable.
02:56:55 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, yeah, the only true implementation of that these days is Plan 9.
02:57:21 <elliott> hmm, I wonder how Plan 9 does file permissions? I've actually never checked
03:13:11 <catseye> for pkg in `pkg_info | awk '{ print $1 }'`; do (pkg_info -R $pkg | grep 'Required' >/dev/null) || echo $pkg; done
03:13:37 <catseye> ^ list of all leaf packages (no depedents) insalled from pkgsrc
03:16:49 <catseye> elliott will certainly find way to improve it when he somes back. Then he will deride Sgeo
03:18:39 <catseye> mmmmm back to building Qt from source
03:25:17 <catseye> I should "improve" my "bot" while I eat "cold cereal"
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04:02:28 <benuphoenix> Off-Topic: I need advice: Should I give my dog her own e-mail address?
04:03:03 <pikhq> However, she *should* have her own UUID.
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04:12:13 <benuphoenix> catseye: Usually, the topic of a channel is not related to asking about pet email accounts
04:13:23 <catseye> benuphoenix: Anyway, I agree with pikhq. Your bitch does not need an e-mail address; that's old media! Get with the times and open a Facebook account for her.
04:14:41 <benuphoenix> i'll have to make an email address for her first...
04:16:48 <benuphoenix> i'll use my own domain so that I won't have to lie about her age
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04:23:27 <Sgeo> Tomorrow I go to learn stuff that I hope I never need to use
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04:33:23 <pikhq> 忍者医師が来た！(ninnsìȳaisi kà kita!)
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04:55:07 <Gregor> I want to find some economic predictor that uses the price of tea in china as a reference.
04:55:17 <Gregor> So when people say "But what's that got to do with the price of tea in China?"
04:56:55 <storkbot> catseye: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
04:57:43 <catseye> should probably be .errmsgs
05:00:34 <storkbot> catseye: Assign a user-scope variable with ~/foo=1. Assign a server-scope variable with /bar=1. Assign a channel-scope variable with #baz=1.
05:01:48 <benuphoenix> Juno (The dog) sent her first test email, asking to be pet. Now, I have to give her a facebook
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05:12:51 <Gregor> benuphoenix: How did you find my other network? :P
05:17:44 <benuphoenix> Gregor: I learned about this channel during my days in Agora.
05:18:07 <elliott> benuphoenix: hmm, what name did you play under again?
05:18:26 * elliott tries to connect what benuphoenix just said about agora with Gregor talking about presumably-irc networks
05:18:41 <elliott> catseye: it should be #/foo not #foo
05:18:47 <elliott> catseye: then you can do ##php/morons and the like
05:19:09 <Gregor> benuphoenix: There is a FALCON roosting in my CHIMNEY.
05:19:43 <elliott> benuphoenix: ok, seriously. why don't you use tab complete?
05:20:32 <catseye> Gregor: But will you hire a PLUMBER to feed it SCALLIONS? *wink*
05:20:56 <elliott> catseye: I'm almost at a loss wrt labels in SP\ASM :P
05:21:29 <storkbot> catseye: {{msg="hi",from="catseye"}}
05:22:07 <elliott> |~/msgs = {{msg="hi",from="your mom"}}
05:22:08 <storkbot> elliott: {{msg="hi",from="your mom"}}
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05:22:16 <catseye> elliott: that is a lua table and you can't manipulate it
05:22:24 <elliott> catseye: dude you suck make it syntax
05:22:24 <Gregor> catseye: That would cost too FEW of the CALENDARS.
05:23:01 <elliott> catseye: go to hell asswipe, omg thanks you're awesome
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05:25:17 <elliott> catseye: wait, debug outputs the locations as it assembles to them
05:25:24 <elliott> |~/msgs = {{msg="hi",from="your mom"}}
05:25:24 <storkbot> elliott: {{msg="hi",from="your mom"}}
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05:26:13 <elliott> <elliott> |tell elliott dojgidfg
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05:26:26 <elliott> catseye: we have different definitions of broken
05:26:44 <Gregor> `echo I haven't broken yet! Although it will take me a while to reply.
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05:27:13 <HackEgo> I haven't broken yet! Although it will take me a while to reply.
05:27:14 <catseye> elliott: not really. it's more accurate to say i was lying.
05:27:24 <elliott> catseye: yeah well FUCK ALL LIARS
05:27:34 <elliott> |tell elliott magic happens
05:27:36 <storkbot> elliott: elliott told me to tell you: magic happens
05:27:58 -!- elliott has changed nick to asjdasjd.
05:28:01 <storkbot> asjdasjd: {{msg="artichokes",from="elliott"}}
05:28:09 <asjdasjd> catseye: ONLY SMRT AS SMRT CAN DO
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05:28:19 <elliott> |~elliott/msgs=can't touch this
05:28:19 <storkbot> elliott: elliott told me to tell you: artichokes
05:28:19 <storkbot> elliott: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
05:29:00 <catseye> i suppose it should, but, meh
05:29:04 <storkbot> elliott: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
05:29:21 <elliott> catseye: is there any way to execute one command and then another command?
05:29:25 <elliott> JUST A WISHLIST ENTRY Y'KNOW
05:29:36 <storkbot> catseye: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors
05:29:52 <elliott> catseye: I AM UNDERWHELMED SIR
05:30:17 <elliott> i like this hate thing you and me are developing
05:31:26 <catseye> i should probably not hang out here so much
05:31:30 <catseye> i would get a lot more done
05:31:37 <elliott> catseye: but a lot less hating done
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05:37:21 <catseye> elliott: NetBSD. I use it now. So install it.
05:38:05 <catseye> Alright, I'll let it slide *this* time.
05:38:29 <elliott> catseye: besides, a lot of linux distros don't even support this ethernet card(!)
05:38:33 <elliott> for instance, Tiny Core Linux
05:38:38 <elliott> catseye: I *very* much doubt NetBSD will :)
05:39:52 <elliott> "reenfeoffing" -- best word in the english language?
05:40:09 <catseye> then i reserve the right to switch this back to Maverick. Possibly repartitioning so's I can have a FreeDOS partition too.
05:40:22 <elliott> catseye: i thought maverick annoyed you
05:40:27 <elliott> anyway, /me is rocking debian here
05:40:44 <elliott> catseye: freedos? pah, install DOS 6
05:40:54 <catseye> only where it gets commercial. also, it IS slower than NetBSD, even factoring out the GUI
05:40:56 <benuphoenix> Sgeo: Juno now has a functioning facebook.
05:41:21 <elliott> benuphoenix: please tell me beowulf.benuphoenix.com is an actual beowulf cluster
05:41:28 <elliott> catseye: it totally is, stick with netbsd FOREVER
05:42:03 <catseye> elliott: give me ntfs filesystem access here, and i totally would probably maybe
05:42:13 <elliott> catseye: it has fuse does it not?
05:42:24 <elliott> benuphoenix: http://www.google.com/search?q=beowulf%20cluster
05:42:25 <catseye> ...does it? oh, it may indeed
05:42:30 <elliott> catseye: it does have FUSE, yes.
05:42:37 <elliott> catseye: you may need to install the stuff somehow
05:42:43 <elliott> catseye: it probably has an ntfs-3g package
05:42:44 <catseye> that means ntfs-3g can run in userspace, right?
05:42:50 <elliott> catseye: that's how ntfs-3g is designed, yes
05:42:52 <elliott> catseye: it's what ubuntu uses
05:43:13 <elliott> catseye: "NTFS-3G is an open source cross-platform implementation of the Microsoft Windows NTFS file system with read-write support. NTFS-3G often uses the FUSE file system interface, so it can run unmodified on many different operating systems. It is runnable on Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, ..."
05:43:14 <catseye> the bsd people are allergic to gpl code in the kernel, so yay! that's finally solved around
05:43:25 <elliott> also in that list is Haiku
05:43:46 <catseye> elliott: OK, I *may* stay with this.
05:43:56 <elliott> MWAHAHA MY EVIL PLAN WORKED (what's my evil plan again?)
05:44:04 <elliott> catseye: have you installed xfce yet?
05:44:11 <elliott> that will probably make things a whole loss less painful, yeah.
05:44:23 <elliott> catseye: bsds were gentoo before gentoo :)
05:44:28 <catseye> i need to... make X use it
05:44:31 <elliott> or is it more Linux From Scratch...
05:44:51 <elliott> you *could* install a fancy graphical login manager
05:44:55 <elliott> but i have a feeling that's not your thing
05:45:25 <catseye> I used to run... a login manager (not fancy though). don't recall its name
05:45:53 <elliott> catseye: xdm is supremely ugly but you can actually configure it to... not be
05:46:00 <elliott> catseye: we're talking X11 checkerboard-grey background ugly
05:46:19 <elliott> catseye: what's up with the rube license?
05:46:27 <elliott> [[a "freely redistributable" licence (not open source, but not closed source either.)]]
05:46:41 <elliott> * Freely redistributable unmodified for non-commmercial purposes.
05:46:45 <elliott> still, what's up with that :p
05:48:20 <catseye> elliott: what's up with it is just what it says is up with it...
05:48:52 <elliott> catseye: i just mean, it'd be vaguely irritating to rewrite all that for SuperRUBENowWithNetworking
05:49:15 * elliott has never quite been able to understand "look but don't touch" licenses tbh
05:49:17 <catseye> it would be worse to hack it; have you looked at the code?
05:49:24 <elliott> catseye: well. yes. i did notice that
05:49:40 <catseye> also, it is to piss off someone who wanted it to be open source, but who was an asshole about it, tbh.
05:52:21 <elliott> Gregor: do *you* remember seeing that page about maximal sets of installable debian package?
05:52:40 <elliott> Gregor: the guy used a script or something to find the largest set of debian packages such that no package can be added to it as it would cause a conflict
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05:52:53 <elliott> Gregor: thus constituting a list of the most debian packages you can have installed at once
05:53:08 <Gregor> elliott: I don't remember that list, but that's pretty awesome.
05:53:13 <Gregor> Wonder how many TB that would be.
05:53:20 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, try a few gigs.
05:53:27 <elliott> Gregor: The entire Debian distribution is only a few DVDs.
05:53:34 <elliott> Gregor: And there's no way it was all of Debian.
05:53:36 <Gregor> EXAGGERATION FOR EMPHASIS
05:53:50 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, yes, it was awesome, and I want to install it.
05:53:57 <elliott> Gregor: Just to see what my menu would look like at the end of it.
05:54:03 <Gregor> elliott: PLAY THE VIOLIN, JOHNNY
05:54:19 <elliott> Gregor: Bonus: You develop a Pavlovian dread at any mention of upgrading computers.
05:54:37 <elliott> "I just upgraded" "NO! NO! OH GOD THE NETWORK USAGE, OH GOD THE BREAKAGE"
05:56:13 <elliott> Gregor: I *think* it might have been Kragen Sitaker.
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06:02:29 <elliott> Gregor: Apparently all the (free) i386 binaries for Debian amount to 18.5 GiB.
06:02:34 <elliott> Gregor: (The source, interestingly, is only 16.8 GiB.)
06:02:57 <elliott> Gregor: So actually, if you have the time to download stuff, whatever subset is maximal would be pretty feasible to install.
06:03:10 <elliott> catseye: I'm talking about every single piece of software for i386 in their repositories.
06:03:26 <catseye> yet a single modern disk dwarfs it
06:03:52 <elliott> catseye: Hell, I could store it on five of these little dirt-cheap 4 gig USB sticks.
06:04:06 <elliott> And have 1.5 GiB left over to store, I don't know, photographs.
06:04:12 <Gregor> elliott: 18.5 GiB of packages or installed?
06:04:30 <elliott> Gregor: I am not sure; it is from http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2010-October/000928.html, as I am searching that list to find the post.
06:04:36 <elliott> | Current Debian stable source (5.0.6) | 16.8GB | lots of free software |
06:04:37 <elliott> | Debian i386 binaries | 18.5GB | same, but compiled |
06:04:37 <elliott> |--------------------------------------+--------+-----------------------|
06:04:51 <catseye> hhhhhhh i just started xfce4-session while blackbox was still running ok no this is so wrong
06:04:54 <elliott> Gregor: He also listed Wikipedia both compressed and uncompressed.
06:04:57 <elliott> catseye: yeah no don't do that
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06:05:34 <elliott> Gregor: If I can't find it, I'll just write my own stuff to do it.
06:05:46 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, conflicts are relatively rare compared to how many packages there are. So it can't be *that* hard, surely? :)
06:06:03 <Gregor> elliott: It's certainly NP-hard, but if conflicts are sufficiently rare that MAY be OK with a good heuristic :P
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06:06:18 <elliott> Gregor: I want the provably maximal set of Debian packages! Raaawr!
06:06:19 <Gregor> s/certainly/probably, although I have no evidence except that it tastes so,
06:06:43 <catseye> nicely fucked up xfce has snazzy terminal but no way to move or resize it
06:06:53 <elliott> catseye: are you sure you installed xfce
06:06:57 <elliott> Gregor: I'm not sure though. Uhh, hmm.
06:07:01 <catseye> the "window management" part must be missing
06:07:07 <Gregor> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/UnNews:Post-structuralist_engineer_blamed_for_bridge_disaster
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06:08:20 <elliott> Gregor: Is there a more efficient way to do "for pkg in $(aptitude search . | awk '{print $1}'); do (aptitude show $pkg | grep -c '^Conflicts:' >/dev/null) && echo $pkg; done"? :P
06:08:37 <elliott> Woo, that doesn't even work.
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06:09:32 <elliott> $ for pkg in $(aptitude search . | awk '{if ($2 == "A") { print $3 } else { print $2 }}'); do (aptitude show $pkg | grep -c '^Conflicts:' >/dev/null) && echo $pkg; done
06:09:35 <elliott> there, i think that should work
06:09:48 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, I imagine the result is rather short.
06:10:37 <elliott> Gregor: Dear god it is so slow :P
06:13:25 <elliott> Gregor: There are rather more conflicting packages than I imagined X-P
06:13:52 <elliott> Gregor: If you're daring, just list out every package and send it to aptitude install. (Note: When I did this, aptitude and apt-get both exited without giving me any diagnostics.)
06:14:31 <elliott> WHAT ON GOD'S EARTH COULD AEWM CONFLICT WITH
06:14:38 <elliott> Gregor: Of course this is only packages that directly conflict.
06:14:43 <elliott> Gregor: Anything that *depends* on these... ho ho ho.
06:14:56 <elliott> THAT DOES TOTALLY NOT COUNT GUYS
06:14:59 <elliott> YOU SUCK AT PACKAGE MANAGEMENT
06:15:26 <elliott> Gregor: Most of these conflicts are just setting minimum versions on non-dependencies :P
06:16:35 <catseye> erk. blackbox is written in C++
06:17:09 <elliott> catseye: xfwm! defender of the galaxyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
06:17:25 <catseye> elliott: i'm looking for one i can hack on easily
06:17:33 <elliott> catseye: or aewm, but lwm is better
06:17:39 <elliott> catseye: http://www.jfc.org.uk/software/lwm.html
06:18:04 <elliott> catseye: you will have to make an .Xresources/.Xdefaults to make it click-to-focus if you like that sort of thing
06:18:13 <elliott> catseye: and if that doesn't load, xrdb -merge .that in your .xinitrc ofc
06:18:19 <elliott> X resources are insane shit.
06:19:21 <elliott> Gregor: it's totally on to listing the ars
06:19:41 <Gregor> elliott: G'luck with that.
06:19:49 <elliott> Gregor: i am... probably sleeping before this is done
06:19:56 <elliott> Gregor: but can you IMAGINE the menu?
06:20:12 <elliott> Gregor: "I'm gonna start the GIHOOOOOOLY SHIIIIIIIT"
06:20:40 <elliott> "ok, emacs... ema<TAB> Did you mean: emasculate?"
06:22:09 <elliott> <rww> elliott: do you plan on installing this monstrosity?
06:22:09 <elliott> <rww> because I'd be vaguely interested in how many hours that takes to boot :\
06:22:12 <elliott> Gregor: THAT'D BE ANOTHER ISSUE WOULDN'T IT
06:22:17 <elliott> Starting hot-babe-daemon...
06:22:33 <catseye> elliott: you are mentioned in the lwm sources
06:22:45 <elliott> catseye: that is but one Elliott Hughes, who is cool and also originally wrote lwm
06:22:53 <elliott> catseye: his username is elliotth. not shitting you
06:23:11 <elliott> catseye: he also maintains an editor/IDE/thing that's based on plan 9's acme!
06:23:19 <elliott> catseye: but it's written in java, so. i don't like him *too* much
06:23:28 <elliott> http://software.jessies.org/
06:24:50 <catseye> /* Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate... */
06:25:43 <elliott> catseye: i actually used lwm for a while!
06:26:11 <elliott> catseye: you should totally add alt+right-mouse-drag for resizing if you want to make me happy.
06:26:17 <catseye> O XWindows. O, thou art not to be trifled with.
06:26:21 <elliott> catseye: oh, also hackable is http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/
06:26:31 <elliott> catseye: which, while probably too minimalist for your tastes, is certainly a base.
06:26:43 <elliott> catseye: (it lacks, say, window borders.)
06:27:00 <elliott> catseye: warning, lwm packages are sometimes inexplicably out of date
06:27:07 <elliott> also warning: latest stable lwm is newer than development lwm, i think
06:30:45 <elliott> catseye: well if you want fun go evilwm
06:30:50 <elliott> catseye: you get to write your own window decorations
06:31:03 <elliott> catseye: you could try aewm... dunno what license it's under
06:31:12 <elliott> that's based on 9wm but 9wm has no window decorations beyond a border
06:31:16 <elliott> so aewm is probably a nicer base
06:31:20 <elliott> <fishcooker> what's the benefit core i3 to the gnu/linux?!
06:31:25 <elliott> oh, #debian, thou art so retarded.
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06:34:22 <elliott> fritzthecat_: You should be called fittsthecat. It's more ergonomic.
06:37:30 <elliott> fritzthecat_: do you know what this channel is about?
06:37:32 <elliott> many people who come in here don't
06:38:22 <catseye> it's about the real hell (see topic)
06:38:48 <fritzthecat_> i think paranormal things like telepathie and so
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06:40:08 <elliott> fritzthecat_: you think'st wrong!
06:40:26 <elliott> fritzthecat_: this channel is about esoteric programming languages; computer programming languages designed to be strange or interesting, out of the norm.
06:40:48 <elliott> fritzthecat_: freenode is an IRC network for open projects, usually technical in nature; you are unlikely to find what you seek here.
06:41:00 <elliott> well. erlang isn't quite esoteric, but yes.
06:41:55 <fritzthecat_> so i think this room is also interesting for me ;-)
06:42:17 <elliott> fritzthecat_: yes, that is quite likely.
06:42:19 <pikhq> Alas, he haþ yet to leave. Faſcinating.
06:42:22 <elliott> very rare we get someone who knows anything about both.
06:42:29 <catseye> elliott: evilwm has an accretion of MIT-esque licenses
06:42:31 <elliott> pikhq: are you *trying* to drive people away? :)
06:42:36 <elliott> catseye: ok i have a solution
06:42:43 <elliott> catseye: throw it all away and start from scratch
06:42:55 <elliott> pikhq: hey, he said the actual purpose of this place is relevant to his interests
06:42:58 <elliott> no point driving him away :p
06:43:02 <catseye> elliott: no, no, evilwm is good for me to learn from by modifying.
06:43:15 <elliott> catseye: YOU'RE NOT GOING TO RELEASE IT?! i can hardly believe it.
06:43:38 <elliott> catseye: http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/evilwm/ or how about a python version? dear god.
06:43:51 <catseye> no please no argh no ouch no please
06:43:53 <elliott> catseye: http://incise.org/tinywm.html this is the best wm anyway
06:44:05 <elliott> catseye: it's like 30 lines long! not reparenting! no borders at all!
06:44:23 <elliott> catseye: focus-follows-mouse but a keybinding to raise!
06:45:10 <elliott> also notable for being licensed under http://www.opensource.org/licenses/fair.php, which is possibly the shortest OSI approved license
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06:45:45 <elliott> (they don't even say anything about it on http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html)
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06:46:46 <elliott> pikhq: X Hotdog Stand: http://www.bio.ifi.lmu.de/~steiner/linux/ctwm.jpg
06:46:58 <elliott> this is an argument for not supporting themes.
06:47:11 <pikhq_> US media are criticising Jon Stewart for... Referring to Obama as "dude".
06:47:34 <pikhq_> Because Nazi fascist muslim jewish communist tyrant is just fine, but dude is too damned far.
06:48:07 <elliott> pikhq_: i totally want to see obama and jon stewart just chillin'
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06:48:36 <pikhq_> elliott: Well, last night's episode was a half-hour interview with Obama.
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06:49:24 <elliott> too much serious talking, not enough laid-backness
06:49:30 <pikhq_> elliott: Legalise pot and it might happen.
06:49:46 <elliott> pikhq_: obama is too chill to care about laws man
06:49:52 <elliott> what have they ever done for him
06:50:16 <elliott> If you are contemplating writing a new license, please also contact us at <licensing@fsf.org>. The proliferation of different free software licenses is a significant problem in the free software community today, both for users and developers. We will do our best to help you find an existing free software license that meets your needs.
06:50:27 <elliott> pikhq_: does this read like an "if you are considering committing suicide" paragraph to you, too?
06:51:08 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/License-Notices-for-Other-Files.html
06:51:15 <elliott> pikhq_: GNU do an actually-free license ^
06:51:22 <catseye> Do you sometimes feel awkward at parties? The FSF can help you with that.
06:51:53 <catseye> Here, take one of the FSF's free personality tests.
06:51:56 <pikhq_> catseye: Yes, with the RMS course in socialising you can feel awkward at all times.
06:52:31 <elliott> pikhq_: have you seen the video where he's answering a question, and he *picks stuff off his bare feet*, and then he *eats it*?
06:52:39 <elliott> it's... it's, yeah, it's... yeah
06:52:46 <pikhq_> elliott: No, but I've heard of it.
06:52:54 <elliott> pikhq_: don't watch it, it's vomiticious
06:53:21 <pikhq_> elliott: He has basically no understanding of social norms.
06:53:26 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
06:53:48 <elliott> pikhq: he doesn't NEED to, he's a VISIONARY
06:54:03 <elliott> pikhq: he SINGLE-HANDEDLY managed to convince people that "free" meant "heavily-restricted"
06:54:54 <pikhq> Problem is that acting like a negative stereotype of geeks (... Going all the way down to the carnival performer) is not exactly the best way to win people over. :)
06:55:02 <elliott> "When MIT's Laboratory for Computer Science (LCS) installed a password control system in 1977, Stallman found a way to decrypt the passwords and sent users messages containing their decoded password, with a suggestion to change it to the empty string (that is, no password) instead, to re-enable anonymous access to the systems. Around 20% of the users followed his advice at the time, although passwords
06:55:02 <elliott> ultimately prevailed. Stallman boasted of the success of his campaign for many years afterward."
06:55:12 <pikhq> (*has* he bit the head off of chickens?)
06:55:33 <elliott> pikhq: "I broke a password encryption algorithm and then emailed EVERYONE with their password. About 20% of people were crazy enough to decide that the solution was to have no password at all. I WIN!"
06:55:52 <elliott> [[When Brian Reid in 1979 placed time bombs in Scribe to restrict unlicensed access to the software, Stallman proclaimed it "a crime against humanity."[18] He clarified, years later, that it is blocking the user's freedom that he believes is a crime, not the issue of charging for the software.[19]]]
06:55:56 <catseye> fprintf(stderr, "It must be the warlock Krill!\n"); /* :-) */
06:56:15 <elliott> "Do you have ANY IDEA how many corps fund the FSF now, just to keep us spouting ridiculous shit so that the entire open source community looks ridiculous and proprietary software bloom?"
06:56:46 <elliott> catseye: what codepath? :p
06:57:06 <elliott> catseye: 9wm, btw, is a bit out of date; it lives on as Plan 9 from User Space's rio(1)
06:57:09 <elliott> but as a basis i guess it's good
06:57:17 <catseye> "void circulatereq(e)" -- i think it's a message they don't bother handling?
06:57:22 <elliott> catseye: you'll TOTALLY LOVE my WM! it does EVERYYYTHIIIIING
06:57:25 <pikhq> elliott: The FSF has done a decent number of good things. Buuut they are definitely the far out there fringe of the free/open source software movement...
06:57:39 <elliott> catseye: really it's just my vague attempt at turning unix into plan 9.
06:57:47 <elliott> catseye: which involves making lots of files.
06:58:04 <elliott> pikhq: Presumably you mean code-wise.
06:58:09 <elliott> pikhq: GCC *no*. Coreutils *no*.
06:58:10 <catseye> i can at least read 9wm's source alright, easier than lwm and evilwm fsr
06:58:49 <elliott> pikhq: Emacs *was basically made into what it is by other people, but ok, rms did start it*.
06:59:00 <catseye> yes, while the others suffice with *no*, gdb does deserve a full *eurgh.
06:59:20 <elliott> what happens when you try to make people hate debuggers
06:59:26 <elliott> by giving them a worthless UI
06:59:41 <pikhq> elliott: You want to suffer from infinite pain and agony?
06:59:44 <elliott> "Can you help us modify NoScript so it can detect and block nontrivial nonfree JavaScript code?" --gnu.org
07:00:02 <pikhq> elliott: *All this was an improvement over the commercial UNIXes at the time*.
07:00:06 <elliott> [[Nontrivial JavaScript code is defined in The JavaScript Trap as "if it makes an AJAX request, and consider it nontrivial if it defines methods and either loads an external script or is loaded as one."]]
07:00:12 <elliott> pikhq: are you sure? BSD existed, man
07:00:29 <elliott> pikhq: it had vi... ok, emacs was an improvement, but most of what makes emacs emacs was not done by rms at all
07:00:40 <elliott> pikhq: it had... a kernel, unlike Hurd which is an insanity.
07:00:47 <elliott> pikhq: it had BSD userland.
07:00:48 <catseye> i can't get the footpicking out of my head now. thanks.
07:00:49 <pikhq> elliott: BSD wasn't commercial, and it wasn't legal for people who didn't have a license directly from AT&T until the early 90s.
07:00:52 <elliott> pikhq: ok the debugger i have no idea about
07:01:00 <elliott> pikhq: how much did a license cost?
07:01:14 <pikhq> elliott: It wasn't generally available.
07:01:27 <elliott> pikhq: but universities had it and that's what matters :)
07:01:41 <elliott> pikhq: minix originated 1987
07:01:52 <elliott> pikhq: Sun OS wasn't that bad was it?
07:01:52 <pikhq> elliott: GNU predates it.
07:02:07 <elliott> pikhq: i mean sure it sucked, but....
07:02:12 <pikhq> elliott: Sun OS was and is *revolting*.
07:02:36 <elliott> pikhq: well, maybe i'd have more sympathy if GNU was BSD: The Free Reimplementation Project
07:02:55 <elliott> instead of the let's-see-how-much-we-can-make-Unix-suck project
07:03:40 <pikhq> elliott: GNU was considered wonderful for doing such things as handling lines over 80 characters long.
07:04:01 <pikhq> elliott: Anything with a line buffer.
07:04:15 <elliott> fine, fine, look, i just hate gnu ok :)
07:04:24 <elliott> it stopped making sense as soon as BSD became widely-available
07:04:33 <elliott> http://www.systhread.net/texts/2009xvishist-img/twm-adv.png <-- twm, fuck yeah!
07:04:59 <pikhq> elliott: And if Linus had known about BSD, GNU would still languish in obscurity except for Emacs and probably GCC.
07:05:10 <elliott> pikhq: well he knew bsd existed... 386bsd just didn't exist
07:05:49 <elliott> pikhq: of course his fucking "let's make a simple hobby os" bullshit stopped him manning up and doing the work required to get bsd booting on x86, which was not that much :)
07:05:59 <catseye> My impression was that AT&T looked the other way if you had a BSD you didn't pay for, because they wanted penetration. I could be misremembering.
07:06:09 <elliott> That's what she s-- sorry.
07:07:07 <catseye> what can i say, marketers are perverts
07:08:06 <elliott> catseye: have you used plan 9 ever?
07:09:00 <catseye> elliott: i tried. it wouldn't install
07:09:12 <elliott> catseye: well *yeah* it's designed to run on 386s
07:09:17 <elliott> catseye: that's why you run it in a vm :)
07:09:22 <elliott> almost no modern machines can run it
07:09:50 <elliott> catseye: but it is rather mind-expanding; I thought the Unix philosophy barely existed and was a worthless piece of crap, then I tried Plan 9
07:10:09 <elliott> catseye: and i realised that the worthless pieces of crap are actually everything after unix originated :)
07:10:40 <elliott> catseye: the UI is very nice, and blends textual, linguistic pipey stuff with point-and-clickery
07:10:46 <elliott> and everything really is a file, it's really nice.
07:11:27 <fizzie> From: Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net>
07:11:27 <fizzie> Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.lang.forth,comp.lang.javascript,comp.lang.lisp
07:11:27 <fizzie> Subject: anybody want to help create mentifex-class AI for iPad?
07:11:27 <fizzie> -- now *there's* a project worth supporting! Thinking iPads!
07:11:51 <fizzie> "You are hereby authorized to go ahead and create, market and sell such an AiApp in the interest of the evolution of AI Minds"
07:11:52 <elliott> fizzie: do you just have a grep for mentifex running 24/7? :)
07:12:04 <elliott> fizzie: I wonder how long until the Mentifexularity.
07:12:09 <fizzie> No, I just read intriguingly titled messages in comp.lang.forth.
07:12:34 <catseye> forth, javascript, and lisp -- the three big AI languages
07:12:50 <catseye> oh AND objC, i missed that
07:13:03 <elliott> catseye: Mentifex's AI is in FOOOOOORTH
07:13:08 <fizzie> "The time is ripe for a massive, Cambrian-explosion-style efflorescence of AI Mind prototypes diverging on a grand scale. When only the Apple iPhone was available, I did not think of creating an AiApp because of the visibly small iPhone screen. Now that the wide-screen iPad is succeedingly wildly, naturally I would like to see an AI for iPad."
07:13:10 <elliott> http://www.systhread.net/texts/2009xvishist-img/e16_adv.png
07:13:20 <elliott> this is everything that's wrong with enlightenment
07:13:25 <fizzie> See, you can't do an AI for the iPhone, the screen is too small.
07:13:26 <elliott> (pointless matrix scroller...)
07:13:39 <elliott> seriously, wow at that gtk font.
07:13:53 <catseye> fizzie: the thought patterns behind that paragraph... oh, where to begin?
07:14:06 <elliott> pikhq: HAHAHAHA Xfce was originally a CDE imitator
07:14:07 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.systhread.net/texts/2009xvishist-img/xfce1.png
07:15:08 <elliott> catseye: hey our sleep schedules are sort of almost synchronised!
07:15:58 <elliott> Gregor: 700 packages that have conflicts up to fxload
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07:16:41 <fizzie> "Page last updated: Nov 26, 2001" -- aw, fvwm95 isn't going so strong.
07:17:07 <fizzie> http://fvwm95.sourceforge.net/screenshot-full.gif -- the awesome.
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11:40:11 <Vorpal> * Quadlex hands Vorpal his card, Quadlex, esq; Grue and Snark Hunter Extrodinare; {Boojums Extra} <-- indeed
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12:26:31 <Vorpal> ais523_, which one is the other one?
12:26:50 <ais523_> but both connections are legit
12:26:59 <Vorpal> ais523_, so wlan works today?
12:26:59 <ais523_> ais523's on a really dodgy wireless connection, though
12:27:03 <ais523_> Vorpal: after around 8 tries
12:27:16 <Vorpal> ais523_, got the code for that uudecode thingy around today?
12:29:40 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1976252
12:30:02 <ais523_> for some reason, I have an obfuscated version, but not the original
12:30:05 <Vorpal> ais523, I thought you said it was a human readable COM file?
12:30:15 <ais523_> that's the program that creates the printable COM files
12:30:41 <ais523_> I can't remember what the input and output are; I think they're both specified on the command line
12:30:52 <Vorpal> ais523_, it recursively calls main() =
12:32:34 <ais523_> yes, what's wrong with that?
12:34:13 <fizzie> Why is there an escape sequence for ? (the "\?" there)?
12:35:01 <ais523_> fizzie: becaus two question marks in a row have a special meaning in C
12:35:07 <ais523_> so you have to escape the second one
12:35:20 <ais523_> this means, if you're writing an obfuscated program, you can escape question marks just to confuse people
12:35:25 <Vorpal> ais523_, trigraphs or digraphs?
12:35:36 <Vorpal> ais523_, which of them I meant
12:35:38 <ais523_> (digraphs don't use question marks, incidentally)
12:39:10 <fizzie> I don't think digraphs even work in string literals; they're replaced at a different level. (Trigraph replacement is done in translation stage 1 just after character set mapping, whereas digraphs are just alternative spellings for some punctuation tokens.)
12:41:02 <ais523> you can even use ??/ followed by a newline to break a line in the middle of a keyword
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15:08:52 <catseye> According to my dream last night, monks are brusque and officious, and when you go to Ikea on your lunch break they ask to see ID.
15:09:14 <catseye> they = Ikea "coworkers". Not monks. They were in the other part of the dream.
15:09:30 <Vorpal> catseye, you have very strange dreams :D
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15:17:19 <catseye> this one actually seemed more coherent than most. I had to make an appointment with a monk for some reason -- the monk on the other end of the phone answered with "Name of monk, time, reason" in a kind of pissed-off voice. Also, there was something about taking the cover off of a USB stick so that it could fit into some hand-held device.
15:18:05 <catseye> (I had an Atari cartridge that came out of its case once, but still worked -- it was kind of like that.)
15:19:06 <catseye> So it's not like I was a bowl of pudding and the planets were chasing me because I interrupted their Christmas play, or anything. That would be much stranger.
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15:44:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or he dreamt that was the case at least
15:44:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes and?
15:45:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, most instructions for assembling non-IKEA stuff is like that too
15:45:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you're from Sweden. Make up some Ikea instructions, then.
15:45:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ever assembled a table fan?
15:46:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, IKEA instructions aren't that special
15:46:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the special bit is the horde of hex keys you will have if you have lots of IKEA stuff
15:47:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, saves on translation
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15:47:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "sexkantsnyckel" here (six corner key)
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15:54:35 <cpressey|away> < Phantom_Hoover> Well, they aren't actually _written_, for a start.
15:54:39 -!- cpressey|away has changed nick to cpressey.
15:54:57 <elliott> cpressey: LEGO instructions, dear god
15:55:40 <cpressey> Regardless, I propose the Erlang manual be rewritten in this form.
15:55:42 <elliott> cpressey: so since we're both having strange yet coherent dreams and my last one involved you, i'm sorry about the upcoming holocaust i will unleash on your next one
15:55:54 <elliott> diagrammatic erlang manual
15:59:01 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Like LEGO instructions!
15:59:01 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Also from Sweden!
15:59:12 <Vorpal> as Phantom_Hoover said
15:59:13 <elliott> <cpressey> Also from Sweden!
15:59:13 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: LEGO instructions, dear god
15:59:13 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Denmark, you fool!
15:59:26 <cpressey> Yes, thank you Vorpal, correction has already been submitted and processed.
15:59:29 <Vorpal> elliott, Some errors just need multiple corrections
15:59:54 <cpressey> No Swede would want those... those... PLASTIC TOYS accidentally associated with their Nation, I take it.
15:59:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, typo for ki
16:00:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lazy select and middle-click-paste.
16:00:22 <Vorpal> cpressey, hah, lego is in fact awesome
16:00:45 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Regardless, I propose the Erlang manual be rewritten in this form. <-- oh my
16:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, so you have an inferiority complex because the best you could do was a furniture retailer?
16:01:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you forgot we have lots more
16:01:33 <elliott> Saunas! No, wait, that's the Finns.
16:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, ah, so the best you could do was *lots* of furniture retailers?
16:01:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, one the major companies in the world that makes mining equipment for example
16:01:56 <elliott> Mining! Yes! Such innovation!
16:02:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, elliott: also erlang
16:02:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh and Agda
16:02:48 <elliott> erlang is a blight, not an achievement >:)
16:02:59 <elliott> now what line am i gonna use for agda
16:03:05 <elliott> i exhausted that one on erlang, which i don't actually mind
16:03:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, a furniture retailer, mining supplies, an unremarkable language and a crappy one which thinks it's a proof assistant.
16:04:04 <elliott> Erlang isn't unremarkable, it's just not *that* amazing :)
16:04:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and, well, olsner?
16:04:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (Actually, Agda is all right as an experimental dependently-typed language, but for some reason people think it can be used to prove things.
16:04:49 <elliott> Vorpal: you should have used Minecraft
16:04:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also surströmming and smörgåsbord. Which shows we can be as nefarious as anyone else.
16:06:26 <elliott> http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/avatars/trollface.jpg
16:06:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I used the Swedish spelling
16:06:32 <elliott> http://paradoxdgn.com/junk/avatars/trollface.jpg
16:07:15 <Vorpal> elliott, hm? Is it worth checking logs for that url? Yesterday evening I started filtering URLs, ais523 had a great idea there.
16:07:35 <elliott> ais523 doesn't filter links any more.
16:07:44 <elliott> And it was such a great idea that you dedicated the next few months to whining about it.
16:08:01 <Vorpal> elliott, he did yesterday, but not his desktop
16:08:15 <elliott> He filters links to remove their clickability.
16:08:21 <elliott> Links are still shown in their entirety.
16:08:36 <Vorpal> elliott, well, lets ask him when he gets back
16:08:45 <elliott> Vorpal: If you want to know, check the freaking logs, he told me himself.
16:09:07 <Vorpal> elliott, sure, I don't care enough to check that however
16:09:20 <elliott> I think Vorpal is now intentionally trying to irritate people.
16:18:20 <cpressey> Vorpal: You forgot the ULTIMATE Swedish export.
16:22:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, um they are still going
16:22:19 <Vorpal> saying "going strong" would be a bit exaggerated however
16:22:25 <Vorpal> Saab *never* went strong
16:22:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought there was a mysterious incident in the factory and everyone inside was found dead?
16:22:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no. That was in Norway probably
16:23:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, well known for its mysterious automotive manufacturing incidents.
16:24:04 <elliott> Maybe we should cause there to be a mysterious accident in Sweden and everyone inside would be found dead.
16:24:17 <elliott> We can ship the cool people in here out first. (not Vorpal)
16:24:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes indeed. Very mysterious since officially they don't have any!
16:24:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nuclear bomb launched from the UK mysterious
16:24:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: VERY MYSTERIOUS
16:24:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: George Bush
16:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought the UK's arsenal was almost all submarine-carried.
16:26:24 <cpressey> Which would make sense, since the UK is only really at war with Atlantis.
16:28:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, you know that while they are fired from submarines they will go up in the air right?
16:29:47 <cpressey> What would be the point of *that*? Atlantis is on the ocean floor!
16:30:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, confusing the enemy perhaps?
16:30:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, oh, have you been around a nuclear sub lately?
16:30:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed
16:31:47 <elliott> cpressey did the punchline and you're all ruining it now
16:32:09 <Vorpal> elliott, you fail at meta-humour
16:32:32 <Vorpal> elliott, and who are you to decide that?
16:32:54 <elliott> Vorpal*!*@* added to ignore list. (look ma, i can announce ignores too)
16:33:13 <Vorpal> hm, that should make the place saner
16:33:34 <Vorpal> or at least more on topic
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16:39:24 <elliott> We need oerjan here to tell me how unrealistic my plans are.
16:39:31 <elliott> Actually, we just need oerjan in here full stop.
16:39:59 <elliott> 10.10.22:06:12:31 --- join: oerjan (oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no) joined #esoteric
16:39:59 <elliott> 10.10.22:07:18:00 --- quit: oerjan (Quit: leaving)
16:40:07 <elliott> 10.10.21 was the last time he spoke
16:44:14 -!- Vorpal has set topic: My life with you, Meredith. That's the real hell. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | 8 days since oerjan was last seen.
16:45:17 -!- elliott has set topic: oerjan probably DEAD, real-life NONEXISTENT, 8 WHOLE DAYS without our GLORIOUS PRESENCE | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:45:27 <elliott> I refuse to accept any reality that is not #esoteric.
16:46:03 -!- Vorpal has set topic: oerjan likely DEAD, real-life NONEXISTENT, 8 WHOLE DAYS without our GLORIOUS PRESENCE | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:46:20 -!- elliott has set topic: oerjan almost certainly DEAD, real-life NONEXISTENT, 8 WHOLE DAYS without our GLORIOUS PRESENCE | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:46:33 -!- Vorpal has set topic: oerjan almost certainly DEAD, real-life definitely NONEXISTENT, 8 WHOLE DAYS without our GLORIOUS PRESENCE | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:47:21 -!- elliott has set topic: oerjan: 8 days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:47:29 <elliott> ^ul (That's the format that was used for me and I'm stickin' to it.)S
16:47:29 <fungot> That's the format that was used for me and I'm stickin' to it.
16:47:40 <elliott> ^ul (When I, a bot, went missing. Indeed.)S
16:47:40 <fungot> When I, a bot, went missing. Indeed.
16:47:47 -!- Vorpal has set topic: oerjan: 8 whole days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:48:23 <fizzie> I think we should have some sort of daily updated "it's been X days since our last Vorpal-elliott ignore-skirmish" thing in the topic.
16:48:29 -!- elliott has set topic: 8 days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:48:45 <elliott> ^echo (THAT'S EXACTLY THE FORMAT THAT WAS USED FOR ME, YOU ARE DESTROYING THE FABRIC OF THE TOPIC IF YOU VIOLATE ITS PURITY)S
16:48:46 <fungot> (THAT'S EXACTLY THE FORMAT THAT WAS USED FOR ME, YOU ARE DESTROYING THE FABRIC OF THE TOPIC IF YOU VIOLATE ITS PURITY)S (THAT'S EXACTLY THE FORMAT THAT WAS USED FOR ME, YOU ARE DESTROYING THE FABRIC OF THE T ...
16:49:01 <elliott> ^echo (ALSO: oerjan was the one who invented that format. QED)S
16:49:01 <fungot> (ALSO: oerjan was the one who invented that format. QED)S (ALSO: oerjan was the one who invented that format. QED)S
16:49:04 -!- Vorpal has set topic: 8 days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | 100 % pure topic.
16:49:09 <elliott> Why bother running it through ^ul?
16:49:10 -!- Vorpal has set topic: 8 days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | 100% pure topic.
16:49:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, funny think is I don't have elliott ignored
16:49:49 <Vorpal> so why is he doing that
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17:18:56 <elliott> ais523_: and he last spoke a day before that
17:19:18 <ais523_> perhaps he's off to do something more serious
17:19:53 <elliott> ais523_: are you *sure* about that? :p
17:20:11 <ais523_> elliott: well, few things are /less/ serious than #esoteric
17:20:25 <elliott> ais523_: yes, but oerjan hasn't been away to do something more serious in...forever
17:22:13 <elliott> ais523_: hmm, I have a theory
17:22:21 <elliott> ais523_: the Windows API is designed to be used from assembly
17:22:37 <ais523_> it's designed to be used from 16-bit C
17:22:43 <elliott> ais523_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netwide_Assembler#Examples_of_programs_for_various_operating_systems
17:22:53 <elliott> ais523_: the second example there is a windows program that outputs a hello world message box
17:22:59 <elliott> ais523_: it sure looks a lot cleaner than C :)
17:23:16 <ais523_> MessageBoxA is incredibly simple, as the Win32 API goes
17:23:26 <ais523_> it's also incredibly uncustomisable
17:23:54 <elliott> ais523_: meh, i like my thought anyway
17:23:56 <ais523_> (it's what's responsible for Windows error messages being so bad; you can either throw up a MessageBox or write hundreds of lines of code, so you just throw up a MessageBox and hope the user can guess what OK and Cancel mean)
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17:24:43 <ais523_> the Windows asm example doesn't even go into a message loop, and most nontrivial Windows programs do
17:24:55 -!- augur has joined.
17:26:54 <ais523_> in fact, I'm not entirely convinced it even links the libc (after all, it doesn't need to, it's calling nothing but Windows API functions)
17:27:17 <cpressey> I've seen some Windows code in asm before. By a crazy person, sadly
17:27:33 <cpressey> A whole Windows app written in asm would be more impressive.
17:27:48 <elliott> cpressey: nod32, for instance.
17:28:06 <elliott> Probably the best Windows antivirus, it also has all those fancy UI boondoggles, and it's written entirely in x86 asm.
17:28:07 <ais523_> the equivalent C89 program would be along the lines of WinMain() {MessageBoxA(0,"Hello","Hello, world!",0); ExitProcess(0);}
17:28:21 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.polzer-sw.com/files/pictures/stories/2007/nod32-30/eset-nod32-30-02.png
17:28:25 <elliott> cpressey: Assembly code backs that screen.
17:28:27 <ais523_> hmm, actually I think it's just MessageBox in C
17:28:34 <ais523_> the import libraries do name-mangling
17:29:05 <cpressey> I suppose there might be some advantage to that, although it's more likely simply that, if you're familiar with viruses, you're familiar with asm, and you code in what you're familiar with :)
17:29:25 <elliott> cpressey: There is an advantage. It has the lowest memory and CPU usage of all the even vaguely-known Windows virus scanners.
17:29:31 <elliott> cpressey: And scans the quickest.
17:29:36 <cpressey> OK, I meant besides the *obvious* advantages :)
17:29:39 <elliott> (It also has basically the best coverage, but that's a separate issue.)
17:32:37 <Vorpal> cpressey, a bit tricky to port to 64-bit windows though
17:32:45 <Vorpal> since it probably uses kernel drivers anyway
17:34:20 <elliott> cpressey: Urgh, what have you done? I have to install Plan 9 now.
17:40:39 <elliott> 11:13:14 <Gregor> Ohhey, ehird is gone?
17:40:39 <elliott> 11:13:17 <Gregor> Didn't even notice that.
17:40:39 <elliott> 11:14:54 <Gregor> That's actually a bit distressing. He's been more or less constantly present for a long time.
17:40:43 <elliott> Gregor: BET YOU REGRET SAYING THAT NOW
17:41:50 <fizzie> cpressey: There's also that one Windows screen saver package that's I think pure asm.
17:42:11 <fizzie> (Maybe that was the win3.1 days, though.)
17:43:11 <elliott> 11:33:51 <fizzie> The thing with the ".seen" command was apparently a bot nicknamed "Endeavour", and I don't remember it at all; and it's been here pretty much only in 2008-04, and twice in 2009-01.
17:43:18 <elliott> (Logreading from February? WHY NOT)
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17:49:14 <cpressey> elliott: No, you have to install NetBSD now. And write a driver for your network card!
17:49:36 <elliott> cpressey: I could try the Jibbed NetBSD LiveCD; if networking works there, I might give it a go.
17:49:49 <elliott> cpressey: But seriously, pkgsrc? Okay, I'll make a deal with you. I'll do it if I can get apt to work.
17:49:59 <elliott> (Debian/kFreeBSD packages better work on NetBSD!)
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17:53:06 <elliott> cpressey: Do you accept these terms? :P
17:58:11 <elliott> Unfortunately, the latest NetBSD removed the message line from cpressey's IRC client due to security vulnerabilities.
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17:59:25 <cpressey> < elliott> cpressey: But seriously, pkgsrc? Okay, I'll make a deal with you. I'll do it if I can get apt to work.
17:59:36 <cpressey> That would be Kitten, wouldn't it? So yeah!
17:59:43 <elliott> cpressey: Kitten use apt? Ahahahaha no.
18:00:36 <elliott> cpressey: So, how likely is it for an arbitrary FreeBSD binary to run on NetBSD?
18:01:00 <cpressey> elliott: I think it's unlikely.
18:01:11 <ais523_> hmm, I wonder what the simplest possible useful package manager is?
18:01:13 <elliott> cpressey: That... but whyyy
18:01:27 <cpressey> They're only ABI compatible with older versions of themselves on a good day. Each other?
18:01:39 <ais523_> elliott: I'm not aware of how that one works
18:01:39 <elliott> ais523_: It complains if you don't have the dependencies (I think), it has install scripts, and it installs files.
18:01:42 <elliott> ais523_: I think it can even uninstall.
18:01:49 <elliott> ais523_: It does *not* handle dependencies itself, however.
18:01:55 <elliott> ais523_: And It Never Will.
18:02:04 <cpressey> Wait, heh, k*Free*BSD you said.
18:02:06 <elliott> ais523_: it doesn't tell you if dependencies are missing
18:02:33 <elliott> cpressey: Failing that I could try building stuff from source. Or make it /kLinux and rely on the compatibility!
18:02:44 <cpressey> elliott: There are binary pkgsrc packages, I'm sure you realize this so why am I saying it? ok
18:02:47 <ais523_> hmm, even autotools does uninstall nowadays
18:03:01 <ais523_> elliott: "kLinux" doesn't really make sense, Linux /is/ a kernel
18:03:03 <elliott> ais523_: So all it is is a compressed tarball with an install/ directory containing slack-desc, which is a description, and doinst.sh, which runs commands to install it after the tarball is unpacked.
18:03:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:03:13 <elliott> ais523_: Debian's naming system for non-Linux releases is Debian/kKernel.
18:03:29 <cpressey> In my experience, the binary pkgs are good for to bootstrap your environment to a point where you can use it to build what you need from source.
18:03:37 <ais523_> yep, because FreeBSD is an operating system, kFreeBSD is the name used for its kernel
18:04:02 <elliott> cpressey: I'm going to try all this on the Jibbed LiveCD and if it doesn't work, I'm not grabbing the iso. :p
18:04:08 <ais523_> likewise, if you made a Windows-based Debian, it would be Debian/NT, because NT is the name of the Windows kernel
18:04:27 <elliott> cpressey: Oh OR I could install DragonFly.
18:04:41 <elliott> ais523_: I'm not sure whether to hate you or hate you for that mental image.
18:04:48 <cpressey> elliott: LiveCD is probably a good approach. If it doesn't work -- I'm becoming happier with NetBSD, so I won't hold you to it :)
18:05:01 <ais523_> elliott: it'd never happen for political reasons
18:05:05 <elliott> cpressey: Oh, I'll probably keep hacking on it.
18:05:10 <elliott> ais523_: It totally could though with Cygwin!
18:05:13 <ais523_> but I see no technical reason why you couldn't pull it off
18:05:23 <elliott> ais523_: What would that be, Debian/Cygwin?
18:05:37 <ais523_> Cygwin doesn't have a kernel, it's just a translation layer
18:05:41 <cpressey> Windows + Cygwin - Windows = FANTASTIC
18:05:44 <elliott> Probably Debian/Cygwin, as Cygwin relies on, e.g. newlib, not glibc.
18:05:44 <ais523_> so Debian/Cygwin/NT, presumably
18:05:52 <elliott> ais523_: Cygwin *only* runs on NT (well, now it does).
18:06:02 <elliott> ais523_: And if you used an older Cygwin, Debian/Cygwin would probably also run on 9x.
18:06:05 <ais523_> elliott: it almost runs on WINE
18:06:06 <elliott> Since it'd just be using Cygwin.
18:06:15 <elliott> ais523_: Wine is an NT implementation :)
18:06:24 <elliott> NT + Windows API implementation.
18:06:26 <cpressey> I vote for Debian/Cygwin/NT, as Cygwin is more of translation layer than anything.
18:06:26 <ais523_> that's like saying that OpenSolaris is a Linux implementation
18:06:29 <elliott> NT API, really, but you know what I mean.
18:06:39 <elliott> cpressey: right, but if you used Cygwin 1.5, it'd run on 9x too!
18:06:56 <elliott> ais523_: Cygwin can run programs that call the NT kernel API, can it not?
18:07:00 <elliott> ais523_: Wine can run programs that call the NT kernel API, can it not?
18:07:08 <cpressey> Well, but you have to decide what kernel to ship, right, otherwise you could just say */Cygwin/*
18:07:09 <ais523_> only the bits that are implemented
18:07:18 <ais523_> also, the kernel doesn't really have much of a direct API
18:07:34 <ais523_> you're supposed to do everything via {user32,system32,gdi32}.dll
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18:07:44 <ais523_> (although not GDI nowadays as it's deprecated)
18:08:17 <elliott> cpressey: you wouldn't ship the kernel
18:08:23 <elliott> it'd just come as an installer, presumably
18:08:35 <elliott> either linked with Cygwin or to be run on a Cygwin installation
18:08:54 <cpressey> elliott: OK, so in this case, only Microsoft can do that. But normally...
18:10:02 <elliott> cpressey: well, normally you wouldn't ship anything on top of Cygwin/NT because that's fucking stupid :)
18:10:12 <elliott> Debian/Cygwin though, that would be sweet.
18:10:32 <cpressey> Hm, can you build a program that uses both the POSIX and NT kernel APIs, then run it on Cygwin?
18:10:57 <ais523_> #include <windows.h> #include <unistd.h>
18:11:10 <cpressey> I'm used to using mingw if you want to talk directly to Windows, but there is no requirement to do that.
18:11:34 <cpressey> I'm sure you can also use the APIs in a way that they interfere with each other!
18:11:54 <cpressey> I'm also pretty sure, on the basis of odds, someone has done this already!
18:12:36 <elliott> cpressey: Okay, I have Jibbed.
18:12:41 <elliott> Now to put it onto this USB stick.
18:13:17 <elliott> cpressey: how did you get netbsd running from a usb stick again? Or did you?
18:14:09 <elliott> cpressey: i... not reassuring, I have no optical drive
18:14:14 <cpressey> I managed to get my CD burner working before I got to that point.
18:14:28 <elliott> cpressey: What's the command to bring the network up, just so I know?
18:14:36 <cpressey> unetbootin is... highly magical, sadly
18:15:03 <cpressey> it should just contain some kind of ISO-knowing layer
18:15:08 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: What's the command to bring the network up, just so I know?
18:15:49 <cpressey> Uh... I didn't need one, actually. Once I disabled ACPI, it saw my nic, I ran dhclient, all was fine.
18:16:26 <cpressey> but in theory it's like "ifconfig up rl0" or whatever
18:17:03 <ais523_> you generally don't need to bring the network up manually unless you brought it down manually
18:17:04 <cpressey> actually I set the rc.conf variable which makes it run dhclient for you then rebooted, but yes.
18:19:07 <cpressey> I would like to propose employing "or whatever" as the standard coda for all technical explanations.
18:19:37 <cpressey> "Therefore by structural induction no list is equal to its own tail or whatever"
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18:21:25 <elliott> cpressey: god this better work
18:21:40 <elliott> cpressey: it's copying /dev/foo files to a FAT-32 filesystem, not reassuring
18:23:21 <cpressey> reassuring, no. entertaining, yes.
18:24:21 <elliott> cpressey: unetbootin is doing this to jibbed
18:24:36 <cpressey> hey... I might be able to build a NetBSD "live USB stick" and ship the image of it to you somehow
18:24:42 <cpressey> I mean, this weekend, not right now
18:25:04 <cpressey> You can build these things from under NetBSD, apparently; it;s the cross-building which is guh
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18:25:18 <elliott> cpressey: "stand/usr.zfs" I like zfs.
18:25:21 <cpressey> I'm not sure how one would best extract/install the image, though
18:25:37 <elliott> cpressey: ship the image... you mean, like, uploading it to filebin.ca? :P
18:25:51 <elliott> cpressey: if you make the stick, then just dd if=stick of=foo, upload foo, and i can do the reverse obviously
18:25:57 <elliott> cpressey: although it better be under 4 gigs.
18:26:15 <elliott> cpressey: otoh, if you want to physically send a usb stick you prepared, that would be super-awesome and be sure to autograph it X-P
18:26:25 <elliott> It could be valuable one day! When you're DEAD!
18:26:59 <cpressey> I'll consider it. Meanwhile, dd+filebin.ca seems fine.
18:26:59 * elliott hides secret plans to murder cpressey and profit from the aftermath
18:27:24 <cpressey> I can bz2 up the image and upload it there
18:28:05 <cpressey> Or, THIS HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE RIGHT? because I know I'm not unique
18:28:12 <cpressey> Well, ok, I am unique in some sense
18:28:22 <cpressey> But not in the likes-to-build-things-that-boot-things sense
18:28:34 <cpressey> I just don't know how rare I am in that sense
18:28:38 <elliott> cpressey: it probably has been done but i couldn't find it
18:28:48 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so, if you like ZFS, do you hate the GPL for making it impossible to add it to Linux?
18:29:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You already know I dislike the GPL.
18:29:17 <elliott> Of course the CDDL is fucked up too, and the fact that ZFS is now in Oracle's clutches is not good.
18:29:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I am too tired to be angry at anything.
18:29:47 <elliott> cpressey: What is it with filesystems being OS-specific?
18:30:10 <elliott> cpressey: Is it so hard to write a bunch of portable code to handle the actual FS tasks and then have small OS-specific patches of code to hook this into their filesystem layers?
18:30:14 <elliott> cpressey: I mean, come on.
18:30:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't mean "why are new filesystems made for new OSes?".
18:30:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean "why are new filesystems almost always OS-specific, even open-source ones?".
18:31:23 <elliott> cpressey: "Installing syslinux to /dev/sdb1 - 33%". Sure hope it unfreezes.
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18:32:22 <cpressey> What is it with computers being aware of filesystems? Seems like it would be useful to have disks that just know what you mean when you say /var/foo/bar.log.
18:33:32 <cpressey> < elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean "why are new filesystems almost always OS-specific, even open-source ones?".
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18:34:52 <elliott> cpressey: OMG IT COMPLETELY WORKED (not)
18:35:21 <cpressey> elliott: did your internal speaker go BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP when it tried to boot from something completely not bootable from?
18:35:30 <cpressey> you gots to love it when that happens
18:35:31 <elliott> cpressey: nope, it got to the unetbootin menu
18:35:36 <elliott> but it didn't recognise the netbsd kernel
18:35:37 <ais523_> elliott: what were you trying to boot from?
18:35:43 <elliott> ais523_: a usb stick of a netbsd livecd called jibbed
18:37:08 <elliott> cpressey: so is /boot the bootloader and /netbsd the kernel?
18:38:00 <elliott> cpressey: don't suppose either of them are multiboot-enabled? :)
18:38:14 <cpressey> also, i was wrong: bsd on a usb stick => obscure, it looks like.
18:38:33 <cpressey> elliott: i don't know what that means so NO OF COURSE THEY ARE NOT MULTI_BOOT ENABLED WHAT?
18:38:49 <elliott> cpressey: i guess multiboot is too gnu eh? :)
18:38:50 <cpressey> i should find out what that means
18:39:03 <elliott> The Multiboot Specification is an open standard originally created in 1995 and developed by the Free Software Foundation. The specification describes a method of loading various multiboot kernels using a single compliant boot loader. GNU Hurd, VMware, Xen, and L4 microkernels all need to be booted using this method. GNU GRUB is the reference implementation used in the GNU operating system.
18:40:22 <cpressey> Good grief, why do people not standardize where it counts?
18:40:41 <elliott> cpressey: Multiboot is actually pretty damn nice.
18:40:44 <cpressey> I mean, it's not like booting is something where you have a strategic advantage over the competition.
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18:41:00 <cpressey> elliott: Yes, I was thinking it's a good concept at the very least
18:41:26 <elliott> cpressey: You can get a kernel booting with like 20 lines of trivial asm (you don't even need to know asm) and a C function.
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18:41:38 <elliott> cpressey: http://wiki.osdev.org/Bare_bones#loader.s
18:41:56 <elliott> cpressey: Basically you have a multiboot header, then you just set up the stack, push the stuff multiboot gives you as C arguments, and call your kernel.
18:42:32 <cpressey> Yes this seems like something silly to not have your kernel support.
18:44:50 <cpressey> So... one way to make a USB stick bootable is to give it a FAT filesystem with a bootblock.
18:45:17 <cpressey> Having NetBSD run off of a FAT filesystem... well, it might be possible. Grand hack, though, i'd think/
18:48:27 <cpressey> I guess as long as it has a bootblock, it doesn't matter what kind of filesystem it has though right?
18:48:29 <elliott> cpressey: aha, /bootxx_cd9660 works in unetbootin
18:48:36 <elliott> cpressey: but it does nothing :-D
18:49:12 <cpressey> If I can get a FFS2 FS + boot block on a USB stick, that should be enough to start.
18:49:54 <cpressey> Wait wait I found it again http://www.bsdnexus.com/NetBSD_onastick/install_guide.php
18:50:00 <elliott> cpressey: /dev/foo can be fdisk'd.
18:50:06 <elliott> cpressey: You can partition it just like a hard drive.
18:50:16 <elliott> cpressey: The *hard part* is getting the OS to read from the USB stick as /.
18:51:21 <cpressey> I know dfly (heh) had a magic "this is the partition you booted from" partition identifier, inherited from freebsd
18:51:30 <elliott> cpressey: Oh, I've seen that guide.
18:51:46 <elliott> cpressey: Problem is, do those generated CDs have the installer on?
18:52:05 <elliott> cpressey: Really Jibbed would be the nicest as I can check that X works and everything before committing...
18:52:17 <cpressey> I don't know. The installer is just another program though, basically, so it can't be too hard, though you might have to start it manually.
18:52:52 <cpressey> elliott: Lack of optical drive sucks.
18:53:02 <elliott> cpressey: Hey, don't knock it. This laptop is awesome.
18:53:13 <elliott> cpressey: Battery lasts ages, ridiculously lightweight, nice screen...
18:54:58 <quintopia> optical drive = useless paperweight most of the time. external is better.
18:55:17 <elliott> Toshiba T150 or something.
18:55:34 <cpressey> config netbsd root on sd0a type ffs <-- THAT is how it knows your stick is / :)
18:56:02 <elliott> TrackPoints are usually rubbish.
18:56:05 <elliott> Only the IBM ones are any good.
18:56:16 <quintopia> well, those are the ones i have experience with
18:56:31 <elliott> Lenovo makes terrible laptops.
18:56:37 <elliott> model name: Genuine Intel(R) CPU U4100 @ 1.30GHz
18:56:59 <quintopia> my bad for not keeping up to the date
18:57:06 <quintopia> last one i tried was when ibm=lenovo
18:57:18 <elliott> Lenovo bought the ThinkPad brand from IBM.
18:57:33 <elliott> They then proceeded to make laptops far worse than their IBM predecessors.
18:57:37 <quintopia> i used one that was branded with both i thought
18:57:45 <elliott> quintopia: Yes, IBM let them put the IBM logo on their laptops.
18:57:50 <elliott> Because they don't care about their reputation.
18:58:02 <elliott> (Lenovos are still a lot better than a lot of the crap out there, but I'd take an older IBM ThinkPad any day.)
18:58:12 <elliott> (I don't think they've changed the TrackPoints though.)
18:58:26 <elliott> quintopia: Well, uh, the T60 didn't suck.
18:58:34 <quintopia> aha, i think that's the one i used
18:58:51 <elliott> quintopia: ...apart from the widescreen version.
18:58:55 <elliott> Which sucked by virtue of being widescreen.
18:59:22 <elliott> Oh yeah, they made a tablet out of it.
18:59:41 <fizzie> They're all made (for some values of "made") by Quanta anyways. ("Quanta Computer Incorporated -- largest manufacturer of notebook computers in the world -- customers include Acer, Alienware, Apple Inc., Cisco, Compaq, Dell, Fujitsu, Gateway, Gericom, Hewlett-Packard, Lenovo, Maxdata, MPC, Sharp Corporation, Siemens AG, Sony, Sun Microsystems, and Toshiba --")
19:00:07 <quintopia> Asus is conspicuously missing from that list
19:00:22 <quintopia> I remember back when Asus made good laptops/netbooks too
19:00:33 <elliott> I've used an Eee PC. I hate its guts.
19:00:57 <elliott> A computer with an unusable keyboard and a tiny screen is far inferior to a computer without a keyboard and with a larger screen (i.e., a tablet of some kind).
19:01:37 <quintopia> i got used to the keyboard, and the screen is big enough if you configure things properly to save screen real estate
19:02:10 <elliott> Gee, that's so worth the less than a kilogram difference from this, my only and main computer.
19:02:17 <quintopia> the trade-off for lightweight/tiny size/superlong battery is totally worth it
19:02:35 <elliott> I have used the Eee PC. Its battery is not superlong. Mine is competitive with it.
19:02:49 <elliott> It is also about as lightweight; the weight is distributed across a larger size, so it feels only slightly heavier.
19:02:59 <elliott> And I'll take the 13" screen and full-sized keyboard, thanks.
19:03:13 <elliott> I can actually get shit done on it, rather than just visit stupid webpages and use a horizontal scrollbar every two seconds.
19:03:23 <elliott> It might not be ZOMG KAWAII but it's an actually useful computer.
19:03:24 <fizzie> Asus might manufacture their own; they're a Taiwanese firm too, like Quanta. (And of course it's not so clear-cut like that: HP for example has their notebooks built -- well, in 2004-2005, anyway -- by Foxconn, Compal, Inventec, Arima, Quanta and Wistron.)
19:03:50 <fizzie> I like the name "eee".
19:04:38 <fizzie> "Eeee, you have a PC?!"
19:04:50 <quintopia> my eee is my main computer now also. i'm using it right now with an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse (desktop mode for me). it's productive in this mode as any computer. in netbook mode, portability is the prime and only concern, and it has that too.
19:05:07 <elliott> I have no comment but hahahaha
19:05:48 <quintopia> i eventually hope to get my desktop working again as a main computer for the added speed and memory and stuff, but for now i have to do it this way
19:06:44 <fizzie> A friend has what I think is an Aspire One, and the SSD is pretty horribly slow; the whole machine goes all io-wait-unusable (might be partly a driver/config/whatever problem too) whenever something disk-intensive is happening.
19:09:13 <fizzie> ata2.00: ATA-0: ELITE PRO CF CARD 16GB, Ver2.19K, max UDMA/100 <-- that is also not an especially fast "disk" that I have here.
19:09:50 <fizzie> Also called the poor man's SSD.
19:09:58 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, that is a common problem with SSDs, related not to disk throughput but random access and shit.
19:10:18 <quintopia> i use my 32g SD as a "hard drive extension" for non-executable files and stuff i want to be readily available should my computer fail.
19:11:30 <quintopia> i don't use it for everyday stuff tho cuz it has a bad habit of becoming read-only without any provocation
19:11:38 <quintopia> any help with that issue would be appreciated...
19:13:10 <fizzie> Same thing as https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/438379 ?
19:15:01 <quintopia> and also it happens without ever suspending
19:17:29 <elliott> seems my machine is actually a T130
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19:17:57 <elliott> "Toshiba is now recalling thousands of T130 series laptops owing to overheating concerns, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission announced Thursday"
19:20:05 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't ais523_ one melt or something?
19:20:17 <elliott> Uhh, he has one. No idea about it melting :P
19:20:30 <ais523_> Vorpal: it was the power supply that caught fire due to a short circuit
19:20:46 <Vorpal> ais523_, you said it smelled molten plastic iirc?
19:20:55 <elliott> apparently my UUID is 601BF387-1BAE-DE11-AD86-00269E431DF4
19:20:58 <ais523_> Vorpal: well, it was an insulated wire that shorted...
19:22:22 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ qemu-system-x86_64 -m 512 -fda /home/elliott/keep/2010-10/M64-095C/M64-095C.IMG
19:23:02 <elliott> Sure is slow in qemu though.
19:23:10 <elliott> The 32-bit one might go faster.
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19:32:54 <elliott> cpressey: menuetos, it's this os programmed entirely in x86 and x86-64 assembly
19:32:58 <elliott> both 32-bit and 64-bit versions
19:33:02 <elliott> cpressey: it even has a web browser
19:33:24 <elliott> window transparency and preview (like this: http://www.menuetos.net/086c.png)
19:33:52 <elliott> DVD/MP3/Digital TV player (!) costs because of liecnsing concerns but still
19:34:07 <elliott> cpressey: also, has FASM port
19:34:56 <elliott> wait how did Vorpal's ignore disappear?
19:35:34 <elliott> too much work to add it back in
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19:37:18 <elliott> wtf, that one is broken too?
19:37:21 <elliott> or maybe xchat doesn't ignore /joins
19:38:00 <quintopia> xchat does have some major lameness about it i hear
19:38:10 <quintopia> i cannot say for certain as i have not tried it
19:38:54 <quintopia> cpressey: objective comparison to irssi possible?
19:38:58 <fizzie> I ran it for 15 minutes before it segfaulted.
19:39:22 <cpressey> quintopia: objective? not by me, certainly
19:39:46 <fizzie> It looked not too different from irssi, actually. Architecture-wise maybe more modularistic, maybe not.
19:40:01 <quintopia> the only thing i have heard about it was extremely biased towards it
19:40:23 <quintopia> say it was saner, mroe easily configured, and better laid out than irssi
19:40:29 <fizzie> UI-wise there's some vertical window-splitting action in the curses UI if you want user/channel lists.
19:40:34 <quintopia> and also somethign about python being better than perl
19:41:34 <fizzie> /set there says "344 configuration options found"; and it doesn't really look at least much simpler.
19:42:04 <fizzie> Oh, and some /help texts were pretty incomplete.
19:42:52 <cpressey> quintopia: it worked for me. irssi works for me. i do not have strong feelings about irc clients.
19:43:18 <quintopia> then i'll just assume "they're about the same" and go on with my life
19:43:50 <elliott> http://sites.google.com/site/shaunsite/matrix-wmii.png what i hate about arch users, #17
19:44:01 <elliott> MONOSPACED GREEN ON BLACK MEANS IT'S EXPERT
19:44:08 <elliott> ESPECIALLY IF THE FONTS ARE TINY
19:44:14 <fizzie> Oh, it has that funky "show a line below of which are all the new messages in this window since you last looked at it" thing. (I'm sure someone's scripted that in irssi too, though.)
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19:44:29 <quintopia> fizzie: i'm using said script in fact
19:44:43 <elliott> fizzie: xchat does that but i disabled it, it's irritating
19:45:04 <cpressey> elliott: have that screen, in a non-contrived, day-to-day setup
19:45:25 <fizzie> elliott: I've thought it useful every now and then, but for some reason the xchat implementation seems to behave inconstantly every now and then.
19:45:32 <elliott> cpressey: the matrix too, i mean come on
19:45:35 <fizzie> Every now and then, every now and then.
19:45:48 <quintopia> elliott: that little line that connects commands to the next line to set off the commands from their output is a nice deal though. i'd like to have that in my term...
19:46:21 <quintopia> (searching back through output for the place where the output began is annoying, especially when you weren't expecting so much output)
19:46:38 <elliott> cpressey: i should TOTALLY WRITE MY OWN WM
19:46:56 <cpressey> quintopia: i blast out a color bar above my prompt to help with that
19:47:27 <elliott> cpressey: but it would be a good wm.
19:47:49 <fizzie> elliott: Why not just use fvwm95? It looks just like Windows 95, you'd feel like at home!
19:48:42 <quintopia> also, if weechat has nicks aligned by default, i dun want. i don't get thinking that's useful.
19:48:49 <fizzie> My First Linux(tm), the (broken) Slackware 3.2 that came with a local PC magazine, had fvwm95 in it.
19:49:35 <fizzie> The nicks are right-justified by default, yes.
19:49:42 <elliott> My first Linux was, uh, PCLinuxOS.
19:49:48 <elliott> It didn't support my winmodem so I gave up on it.
19:50:08 <cpressey> quintopia: I set PS1 to spit out VT100 background-colour-changing codes and print out a bunch of hyphens before the rest of the prompt.
19:50:08 <fizzie> Actually, given the nick alignment and the user list and the "new messages" line, it sort-of looks like midway between xchat and irssi.
19:51:50 <elliott> cpressey: what you need is a terminal that you can set to hold the scrolling :)
19:51:51 <cpressey> also, i use high energy verbs like "blast" and "spit" to describe the process, to make it sound really exciting!
19:52:13 <cpressey> elliott: when the output is typically many pages, i don't see how that would help
19:52:13 <fizzie> cpressey: It annihilates the background color and fuses some hyphens in.
19:52:29 <elliott> cpressey: disable scrolling with a keypress, send the command off
19:52:34 <elliott> read through it starting at the prompt
19:52:44 <elliott> suddenly PAGER=cat becomes worthwhile
19:52:47 <Vorpal> <elliott> wait how did Vorpal's ignore disappear? <-- I never ignored you?
19:52:55 <elliott> Vorpal: i ignored you though
19:53:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I just like to point out that going via ^ul was completely un-needed ;P
19:53:32 <elliott> Vorpal: i went by ^echo after that!
19:53:49 <elliott> cpressey: ok then, use a non-backwards terminal that actually has an understanding of this stuff and lets you do things like collapse command output
19:53:56 <elliott> note: no such terminals exist yet due to stupidity
19:54:24 <Vorpal> elliott, also not needed ;P
19:54:25 <elliott> cpressey: but i so want to write one, how surprising is that?!
19:58:34 <fizzie> What I'd like in xchat is "move to next channel with unread stuff" key, but I don't suppose it has one.
20:00:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> cpressey: what you need is a terminal that you can set to hold the scrolling :) <-- scrolllock?
20:00:15 <elliott> i was thinking rio's text windows.
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20:00:37 <elliott> which can get annoying but which is really nice for man(1) and the like
20:01:10 <Vorpal> elliott, annoying for normal interactive usage indeed
20:01:21 <elliott> less so with the usual plan 9 model of things though :)
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20:02:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It hates your guts.
20:02:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It hangs irreparably whenever I ask it to do anything more intensive than render a cube.
20:03:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it is starting to feel a urge to pine for the fjords
20:03:16 <cpressey> < elliott> cpressey: ok then, use a non-backwards terminal that actually has an understanding of this stuff and lets you do things like collapse command output
20:03:23 <cpressey> for some value of this statement, emacs probably can do this\
20:03:31 <cpressey> \\\\\\ hi i like backslashes \\\\\
20:03:36 <Phantom_Hoover> And, most annnoyingly, it only started doing this when I upgraded to either Karmic or Lucid.
20:03:38 <elliott> cpressey: for some value of any statement emacs can probably do it
20:04:14 <cpressey> emacs can do anything lisp hooked up to a pty can do
20:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, some crappy Intel Advanced Core Blatant Lies onboard thing.
20:04:22 <elliott> cpressey: are you crazy enough to give me an ssh account on your machine so I can see if apt will work on NetBSD?
20:04:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also, can I have a million pounds?
20:04:41 <elliott> fizzie: while I'm at it, i require your unborn child
20:04:42 <fizzie> A million pounds of flax.
20:04:45 <cpressey> elliott: I am much, much too crazy to do that.
20:04:50 <elliott> and you, ais523_, I require your brain.
20:05:17 <elliott> Anyone else use NetBSD?!?!!?!?!?!!!?
20:05:32 <elliott> cpressey: NETBSD DOESN'T EVEN WORK IN QEMU DUDE ;_;
20:05:41 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Are you using the GPU-driven desktop magical motion effects?
20:06:01 <ais523_> elliott: but I need it too...
20:06:11 <elliott> ais523_: Not as much as I do!
20:06:33 <cpressey> elliott: http://www.netbsd.org/ports/emulators.html#setup
20:06:42 <Phantom_Hoover> It can run FGFS tolerably, but above that and it's screwed.
20:06:45 <elliott> cpressey: network doesn't work
20:06:51 <elliott> cpressey: and *yes* i tried
20:07:04 <elliott> love how bochs is their first suggested emulator
20:07:21 <Phantom_Hoover> And it screws my X server with it, so I have to reboot.
20:07:31 <cpressey> wonder why they do not test the amiga port on uae
20:07:34 <elliott> cpressey: what if i paid you a bajillion dollars and you did it in the chroot
20:07:57 <cpressey> elliott: look, if you're so desperate, i can try, for kicks, this weekend, but uh, why do you think it would work?
20:08:11 * coppro might make a clang-compiled FreeBSD VM
20:08:38 <cpressey> also, due to my Internets coming from the phone company, it is probably not possible to ssh into my machine by mortal means
20:08:57 <coppro> cpressey: do you have an IP?
20:09:06 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:09:12 <cpressey> coppro: Yes. It starts with 192.168.
20:09:32 <coppro> cpressey: your /ISP/ actually gives you one of those?
20:09:34 <elliott> cpressey: do you have a router?
20:09:40 <coppro> or do you just have a router?
20:09:48 <elliott> coppro: cpressey was obviously joking
20:10:03 <elliott> cpressey: even the shittiest routers have port forwarding configs and from there it's just putting in the ssh port
20:10:25 <elliott> cpressey: anyway, i think it would work because even if kFreeBSD packages don't work, the Linux ones might
20:10:26 <fizzie> Hey, back in dialup days giving private-range IPs to clients wasn't especially special.
20:10:34 <elliott> cpressey: and failing that, apt can do things from source, too :)
20:10:47 <elliott> wow, fritzthecat was in here yesterday, and now Fritz the Cat is wikipedia featured article
20:11:20 <fizzie> At least our SLIP link wasn't very public-internets-connected back then. The later PPP connections probably were.
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20:12:54 <fizzie> Now I can't get this weeweechat to crash again, how annoying. I may actually have to give it the old college try. (What does that even mean?)
20:12:54 <cpressey> I do not, in fact, have a router; just a DSL modem.
20:14:01 <cpressey> elliott: I don't know what linux compat is like on net; on free it was OK, but iffy. building from source is, of course, more manly.
20:14:24 <fizzie> If it's an external, ethernet-connected DSL modem, it might essentially be a router with one LAN port and one WAN port; that's what my zyxel box is.
20:15:04 <fizzie> It does bridge mode, but it also does "I take your internet-visible IP and provide DHCP nonsense to your computer" thing, and probably forwards ports too.
20:16:02 <elliott> cpressey: Try http://192.168.1.1/.
20:16:05 <elliott> You might just get something.
20:16:08 <fizzie> In other news, where have all the PCI ADSL cards gone? I haven't seen anyone using one of those in (probably) years.
20:18:27 <cpressey> elliott: iirc I get my cable modem's configuration page. I've had to go in there to reset the password several times, with the phone company's help, because it keeps "forgetting" it.
20:18:47 <elliott> cpressey: It may well have port forwarding.
20:19:07 <elliott> cpressey: Oh hell, you know what? Got any ports open? I'll see if I can get them.
20:19:35 <cpressey> thanks but no I'm pretty sure I don't.
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20:20:43 <elliott> cpressey is TOO TUNED-IN to my attempts to root his box
20:21:58 <fizzie> And ISDN! Where did that go? In Germany you could -- for a small amount of time -- get a 16 kbps Internet connection with no phone charges, because only the use of the 64 kbps data ("B") channels was charged, and you could keep the 16kbps signaling channel ("D") open and send data over that.
20:22:51 <fizzie> All ISDN4Linux documentation was also only in German; that's one ISDNy country.
20:27:02 <elliott> fizzie: CONVINCE ME NOT TO WRITE MY OWN BOOTLOADER
20:27:29 <fizzie> Okay: you shouldn't write a bootloader, because you'd end up with an AWESOME one, and no-one wants that.
20:27:38 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: the above may not be true.)
20:27:46 <fizzie> (Any parts of it, in fact.)
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20:30:01 <elliott> fizzie: OKAY I TOTALLY WILL
20:30:05 <elliott> WHAT ASSEMBLER SHOULD I USE TO ADD TO THE AWESOME
20:31:00 <fizzie> Or HLA, it's fr-fr-freaky.
20:31:39 <elliott> fizzie: Shouldn't that be f-f-freaky?
20:33:26 <elliott> cpressey: It's... 386ASM or something, zzo's.
20:34:00 <elliott> fizzie: HLA is indeed freaky though.
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20:34:38 <elliott> stdout.put( "Hello World" nl );
20:34:41 <elliott> fizzie: Can you FEEL the assembly?
20:35:53 <elliott> fizzie: Grep /(rather lengthy)/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Level_Assembly#Macro_system
20:36:00 <elliott> fizzie: It's so beautiful.
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20:39:27 <elliott> cpressey: Could that actually work?
20:41:33 <cpressey> elliott: It could. Doing it in any way that wasn't just inline assembly (in DECIMAL) would incur overhead though
20:41:48 <elliott> cpressey: http://catseye.tc/projects/shelta/lib/8086/gupi.she?
20:42:08 <cpressey> I think GUPI uses the dos interrupts, so not that, but otherwise yes
20:42:08 <elliott> cpressey: I do want this to fit into the boot sector though.
20:43:04 <cpressey> I mean, the Shelta compiler fits in the boot sector :) The one written in x86, that is. The one written in Shelta does not. It's like 2 or 4K.
20:43:28 <elliott> cpressey: I was basically planning to use the BIOS to read the kernel into RAM and then jmp there.
20:43:32 <elliott> Surely that can't be so hard? :)
20:43:37 <elliott> I'm not interested in booting other OSes, really.
20:43:49 <elliott> Oh, I wouldn't mind printing "Booting..." or something either.
20:44:00 <elliott> cpressey: Doesn't the FreeBSD bootloader fit into the boot sector?
20:44:04 <cpressey> And yeah I think Shelta might only talk BIOS interrupts; I don't remember
20:44:39 <elliott> cpressey: Hmm, can I rely on the BIOS to be able to read from floppies/CDs/HDs with the same interrupt?
20:44:45 <fizzie> Remember to print "Booting..." with each character interspersed with different actions, so that your users get to diagones problems based on whether it printed "Bo" or "Boo".
20:44:46 <cpressey> elliott: the terminology always confuses me... boot0 fits into the MBR. But all boot0 does is call the boot sector of the selected disk/part
20:44:58 <elliott> Like, if the bootloader is on a given medium, it pretends that medium's a hard disk.
20:45:06 <cpressey> elliott: depends on your hardware. but you hope for that, i believe.
20:45:25 <elliott> I guess it'd do it for USB drives, too.
20:45:35 <elliott> All I have to do now is learn Shelta and BIOS interrupts. :P
20:45:40 <elliott> cpressey: There is a dos.she. :-P
20:45:44 <elliott> I could write a DOS-based bootloader.
20:45:53 <elliott> Official bootloader: FreeDOS with BOOTOS in the autoexec.
20:46:03 <cpressey> Hm, the shelta compiler might make some "I'm writing a .COM file" assumptions, now that I think about it
20:46:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I am so happy I gave up on amateur OS design right now.
20:46:24 <elliott> cpressey: Well, uh, .COM files are pretty plain :P
20:46:33 <elliott> cpressey: All I'd have to do is strip the zeroes off the end.
20:46:45 <elliott> cpressey: Oh, and insert $55 $AA at the end.
20:46:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or fasm! But yes, probably.
20:46:55 <cpressey> elliott: If the bootblock expects to be at 0x0100 then there should be no problem, agreed.
20:46:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: For the bootloader, though, Shelta! If I can get away with it.
20:47:14 <elliott> cpressey: The boot sector is loaded to 0x7C00. So yeah.
20:47:35 <cpressey> Yeah I don't know if Shelta can do that.
20:48:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, sort of. It also runs on Linux. And it's lower-level than NASM.
20:48:31 <elliott> Hey, MenuetOS is written in it. :P
20:48:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is plain wrong.
20:49:10 <elliott> nasm has plenty of mnemonics that translate to various different instructions.
20:49:16 <elliott> (Do you have any idea how many instructions "mov" actually is?)
20:49:20 <elliott> fizzie: Unreal mode is what I wanted for my DOS!
20:49:44 <elliott> I'm totally going to write my OS in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Management_Mode
20:50:39 <Gregor> `echo How slow am I today?
20:50:45 <elliott> "FASM is a low-level assembler. It does not support as many high-level statements as MASM or TASM." Straight from the mouth of Wikipedia!
20:51:05 <fizzie> MASM and TASM are very high-level, though.
20:51:39 <cpressey> elliott: Printable boot block!
20:51:43 <fizzie> All kinds of calling convention / function-epilogue/prologue things they do, unless I misremember. Optionally, of course.
20:52:04 <storkbot> cpressey: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
20:52:06 <elliott> !c printf("%c%c\n",0x55,0xAA);
20:52:16 <Phantom_Hoover> But one of NASM's design goals was to make it possible to work out what the opcode for a given line was easily.
20:52:24 * Gregor begins to be concerned ...
20:52:56 <cpressey> Of course, my machine isn't doing anything but, uh, running storkbot right now, so such amazing speed is no sign.
20:52:58 <elliott> cpressey: OK, 0x55 is "U", but 0xAA is unprintable.
20:53:09 <fizzie> ^echo I'm not slow at all.
20:53:09 <fungot> I'm not slow at all. I'm not slow at all.
20:54:21 <fizzie> "You not", not too bad.
20:54:26 <elliott> cpressey: So, not quite possible in the strictest sense, but maybe close...
20:54:39 <elliott> Use ais523's auto-uudecoding thing, replace print with jmp.
20:54:45 <elliott> Write teeny tiny bootloader.
20:54:46 <Gregor> # dd if=/dev/zero of=test.big bs=1M count=10 conv=fdatasync
20:54:46 <Gregor> 10485760 bytes (10 MB) copied, 53.2281 s, 197 kB/s
20:56:15 <fizzie> elliott: Technically speaking if this is the MBR you're talking about, with the 0x55 0xaa signature, it also should have the table of primary partitions, and one byte there (the bootable flag) can only legally be either 0x00 or 0x80. But of course that's only if you actually care.
20:56:16 <cpressey> elliott: The bootloader lives in the first block of the particular partition, correct?
20:56:55 <fizzie> Right before the signature.
20:56:56 <cpressey> Yeah, isn't it the MBR that needs the 0x55 0xaa? Does each part's bootblock need that too?
20:57:06 <fizzie> So there's only 446 bytes for the code.
20:57:10 <elliott> Hmm, can USB drives have as big a bootloader as they want?
20:57:16 <cpressey> fizzie: I remember that bit, yeah.
20:57:22 <elliott> Just by... having shit at the start? No?
20:57:44 <cpressey> BIOS probably pretends they're a floppy, to start
20:58:10 <elliott> Okay then, floppy bootsectors.
20:58:19 <elliott> Let's pretend I don't care about disks right now. :P
20:58:41 <fizzie> CD boot-up is completely freaky too: you can put disk images and it does some kind of magical floppy emulation, but it's also possible to boot without.
20:59:25 <cpressey> Um, I think floppy bootsectors are just like HD bootsectors. I could be wrong.
20:59:50 <cpressey> Best bet: download one and examine it with a hex editor.
21:00:38 <elliott> cpressey: Right, but I don't need to care about the partition table, yeah?
21:00:55 <cpressey> Some info in tables here: http://www.nu2.nu/mkbt/
21:02:04 <fizzie> You don't need to care about the partition table anyway if you just put your boot loader to the start of a partition and rely on the "default" MBR code to chainload the first active partition; but that might not be quite what you want.
21:02:17 <cpressey> ISTR MBR and bootsector are very similar (MBR evolved from the floppy format, just adding the partition table.)
21:03:26 <elliott> cpressey: Should I write it in... SP\ASM?!
21:03:28 <cpressey> I am so going to fuck up my machine this weekend playing with this shit. Note to self: install bochs and do it there instead
21:03:44 <fizzie> The special things (parameter blocks and such) in that floppy boot sector table are FAT-specific and could in theory be ignored. (That's why there's the three bytes for jump at the start.)
21:04:03 <elliott> cpressey: Also, YOU CAN'T MESS IT UP I NEED TO GET APT WORKING
21:04:57 <elliott> bochs is more useful for osdev but hell to configure
21:06:24 <elliott> $ python -c "print ''.join(chr(x) for x in xrange(256))" | ndisasm -
21:06:35 <elliott> except for lock up the system
21:06:40 <benuphoenix> I had to ask my java professor a question via email. Was I wrong to also ask which compiler he used, so that I wouldn't hand in something that wouldn't compile on his end?
21:06:48 <fizzie> cpressey: Did you see how well qemu-system-sparc booted the latest OpenBSD for me? http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-3.png (As sparc-4.png shows, OpenBSD 3.5, which I have in my basement sparc, worked a whole lot better.)
21:08:44 <elliott> fizzie: Maybe I WILL write it in HLA.
21:09:07 <elliott> cpressey: I'm not seeing any COM-specificity in sheltas.she.
21:13:58 <cpressey> elliott: It's possible there's not. How do you set the ORG then though?
21:15:05 <cpressey> Otherwise how do the jump instructions know where the first instruction is? I don't think I was so clever as to use indirect addressing allwhere
21:15:34 <elliott> cpressey: it has to be mentioned that i can't read sheltas.she :)
21:15:37 <cpressey> I really think it assumes the first instruction is at 0x0100
21:15:53 <cpressey> elliott: try reading the nasm version
21:17:19 <elliott> cpressey: gotta say, nasm or something is looking appealing :)
21:17:39 <cpressey> "Ask any long-time assembly programmer about HLA and they'll probably tell you that it's a terrible assembler."
21:17:52 <cpressey> I haven't read the rest of the article yet
21:18:26 <elliott> cpressey: well, the only instance of 100 in shelta86.s is in the first org statement, fwiw :P
21:18:40 <fizzie> cpressey: Don't skip over the "You should be aware that, as an author of one of the assemblers I am discussing here (HLA), there is no way that this discussion is going to be unbiased" part.
21:18:53 <fizzie> (Still, it's reasonably fair.)
21:19:12 <fizzie> (This was, in fact, the x86 assembler comparison article I was referring to few days ago.)
21:19:27 <cpressey> fizzie: so here i am randomly googling for the phrase "terrible assembler" and yeah
21:20:19 <cpressey> Now, I don't know if I am accurately recalling what Terse is, but if I am, BOY HOWDY.
21:20:57 <elliott> cpressey: http://www.terse.com/howdoes.htm
21:21:02 <elliott> eax - 10 ? =={ eax = 1; },{ eax = 0; };
21:21:25 <cpressey> '+' is now an imperative action
21:21:54 <Vorpal> <fizzie> cpressey: Did you see how well qemu-system-sparc booted the latest OpenBSD for me? http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-3.png (As sparc-4.png shows, OpenBSD 3.5, which I have in my basement sparc, worked a whole lot better.) <-- both look strange?
21:22:39 <cpressey> fizzie: oh, i missed when you said that
21:23:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: They start to look just fine as soon as the lower-level boot messages have scrolled away, leaving just the black-on-white actual framebuffer console in place. (Well, except that sparc-3.png isn't going anywhere.)
21:23:22 <elliott> "Look for the terse Optomized Performance (TOP) logo (pictured below) on the software products you buy."
21:23:25 <elliott> http://www.terse.com/pics/topyello.gif
21:23:25 <cpressey> fizzie: is that good or bad? i assume bad.
21:23:47 <Vorpal> elliott, is it a joke?
21:24:13 <cpressey> Vorpal: the price is very reasonable for such an advanced piece of technology!
21:24:23 <fizzie> cpressey: I would think "ttttttttttttttt tcx0: ... using wskbd0data fault: pc=0xfdd" is quite a giveaway.
21:24:26 <Vorpal> "The word OPTOMIZED, the name TERSE, and the TERSE logo are Trademarks of Jim Neil. "
21:24:34 <elliott> [[op-to-mize vt [Gk optos + ISV -mize] : to make as aesthetically perfect, effective, or functional to the eye as possible.]]
21:24:39 <elliott> it appears to be... a neologism?
21:25:39 <cpressey> fizzie: I can never tell with OpenBSD!
21:25:45 <cpressey> everything looks like an error anyway
21:25:56 <elliott> "A complaint I've heard once or twice is that HLA does not support segments, 16-bit addressing modes, and you can't write DOS programs with it. These are valid complaints. If you need to do all of these things, HLA is not the language for you. HLA was designed exclusively for use with flat-model 32-bit operating systems. I make no apologies for that design decision."
21:26:04 <Vorpal> `addquote <cpressey> fizzie: I can never tell with OpenBSD! <cpressey> everything looks like an error anyway
21:26:17 <Vorpal> HackEgo, were art thou?
21:26:18 <HackEgo> 251|<cpressey> fizzie: I can never tell with OpenBSD! <cpressey> everything looks like an error anyway
21:26:25 <elliott> <Vorpal> HackEgo, were art thou?
21:26:33 <Vorpal> elliott, intentionally so
21:26:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Things that are more awesome than they have any right to be: Stonehenge.
21:26:48 <Vorpal> elliott, it was a reference to a shoddy translation
21:26:52 <Vorpal> elliott, in an old game
21:27:05 <Vorpal> for mac iirc. I think it was translated from italian
21:27:10 <Vorpal> forgot the name for it
21:27:14 <Vorpal> was like, for system 7
21:27:32 <fizzie> cpressey: Okay, the "installer" does look pretty inscrutable, I grant you that. And the boot messages in general tend to involve lots of hex numbers. But still!
21:30:42 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "Certaine mighty and unwrought stones,..upon the heads of which, others like ouerthwart peeces do beare and rest crossewise,..so as the whole frame seemeth to hang: whereof we call it Stonehenge."
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21:32:50 <elliott> fizzie: *"Stonehenge! Where the demons dwell / Where the banshees live and they do live well / Stonehenge! Where a man's a man / And the children dance to the pipes of Pan"
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21:34:00 <elliott> cpressey: You should totally make SHELTA: The Freestanding Edition.
21:34:31 <cpressey> elliott: I have considered a "Shelta 2"-like project, but it would be... very different.
21:34:36 <fizzie> elliott: "Ac arst was þe king ybured..Wiþinne þe place of stonheng."
21:35:05 <cpressey> fizzie: I tried installing it once. It was fun.
21:35:35 <cpressey> For any BSD, you want to have paper and pen handy; for OpenBSD, have a calculator too.
21:35:47 <Vorpal> cpressey, what is/was shelta?
21:36:29 <cpressey> Vorpal: a sort of Forth-ish language which I designed to be bootstrapped. Then I bootstrapped it.
21:37:17 <Vorpal> augh can't type easily, the hiccugh
21:39:51 <fizzie> cpressey: Yeah, installing it on an SPARCstation 5, which had only SCSI disks -- and I didn't have any other SCSI-capable hardware to pre-stick anything on the disks -- and no removable storage devices was also quite an adventure. (The only supported way for netbooting is to run a reverse-ARP server in the network; it will broadcast a rarp query, take the first address it gets, and then try to fetch with TFTP from the rarp server's address the file "xxxxxxxx.SU
21:39:52 <fizzie> N4C", where xxx is the assigned IP address in hex.)
21:40:17 <fizzie> (It's pretty awkward if you'd want to, say, have the TFTP server and the rarpd on different machines.)
21:41:21 <fizzie> (And in any case... reverse-ARP? It's not even BOOTP.)
21:41:40 <cpressey> reverse something that's for sure
21:41:52 <fizzie> "RARP is described in Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) publication RFC 903.[1] It has been rendered obsolete by the Bootstrap Protocol (BOOTP) and the modern Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP), which both support a much greater feature set than RARP."
21:41:52 <cpressey> possible the polarity of the neutron flow
21:42:10 <fizzie> For example, the feature to, you know, tell the box where to get the boot image from.
21:47:48 <elliott> cpressey: i'll write it in GAS!
21:48:07 <fizzie> Oh, and the OpenBSD kernel needs a bootp server to get an IP and find the root filesystem; so you need to run rarpd + tftpd for OpenBoot to get IP and the kernel, then the kernel will just ignore those -- it doesn't know how to read them -- and ask with BOOTP for another IP and a (NFS) location to use as the root.
21:48:45 <fizzie> It will also do swap-over-NFS, unless I misremember.
21:49:37 <elliott> fizzie: swap-over-NFS. Lovely.
21:50:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm utterly stunned by your description of the netbooting
21:50:22 <elliott> Q: Is the sourcecode available ?
21:50:22 <elliott> A: Yes, full fasm sourcecode is available to members of the DexOS Dev team.
21:50:22 <elliott> Q: Why is it, only available to DexOS Dev team ?
21:50:22 <elliott> A: If you do not want to Dev for DexOS, why do you need the code.
21:50:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: Isn't it elegant?!
21:51:27 <fizzie> I think if you boot real sunos with it, it will (at least) use the IP (and server address) it got at the boot stage with rarp, and not require the BOOTP parts.
21:51:32 <elliott> hmm, is there any great difficulty in booting another OS from DOS?
21:51:47 <elliott> you can just load your OS wherever it needs to be and jmp there, right? what about the interrupts?
21:52:10 <fizzie> Well, loadlin does it; it's easier to escape from DOS than a real OS, at the very least.
21:52:38 <cpressey> elliott: I was going to suggest gas earlier but I didn't feel like getting stabbed
21:52:58 <elliott> hmm do you just override the interrupts table like a normal boot?
21:53:19 <cpressey> elliott: no shame in using nasm. just so you know.
21:53:31 <elliott> cpressey: yasm made sense when nasm had a terrible license :P
21:54:21 <cpressey> swap-over-NFS sounds like the most insane thing ever
21:55:17 <cpressey> < elliott> A: If you do not want to Dev for DexOS, why do you need the code.
21:55:22 <fizzie> cpressey: It might be that the installer can enable a local swap partition pretty early in the process, hopefully before you end up needing much swap space.
21:55:33 <cpressey> Because you can't be trusted with it because you think Dev is a verb?
21:56:26 <cpressey> elliott: oh. not the sense i meant but that can work too
21:56:34 <elliott> cpressey: what did you mean then?
21:57:10 <cpressey> Whoever 'A' is I need to keep them the hell away from the code, so they should give me, like, the only copy.
21:57:49 <elliott> But I guess you knew that.
21:58:33 <cpressey> Whoever is playing the role of 'A' in this little production in this little insane INSANE theatre of the mind...
21:59:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, godot played that role (he finally arrived)
22:00:38 <cpressey> and now he's in deadlock waiting for himself
22:02:06 <elliott> cpressey: i'm totally designing my own shelta-alike (why why why)
22:03:41 <Vorpal> elliott, because you decided to
22:03:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well that I don't know
22:04:33 <Vorpal> elliott, so stop doing it then
22:05:00 <elliott> what does that have to do with ocd?
22:05:05 <Vorpal> elliott, OCD in language design
22:05:09 <elliott> what does that have to do with ocd?
22:05:31 <Vorpal> obsessive compulsive disorder to write weird esolangs?
22:05:48 <Vorpal> and not knowing a good reason for why'
22:07:20 <elliott> cpressey: TELL HIM SHELTA ISN'T ESOTERIC
22:08:28 <cpressey> Shelta is more like bytewise masonry than a language
22:09:27 <Vorpal> elliott, so we are *gasp* off topic?
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22:13:33 <elliott> http://awos.wilcox-tech.com/ ooh an actual AWOS site (cpressey)
22:14:31 <elliott> Vorpal: oh it's from *that* place.
22:15:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not familiar with it's code or such
22:15:10 <elliott> Vorpal: i just mean the people.
22:15:26 <elliott> Vorpal: i know where you know awilcox from
22:15:40 <Vorpal> elliott, oh yes, another irc network
22:15:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Huh? I was thinking ##socialites.
22:15:55 <cpressey> topic? should we be speculating about where oerjan is?
22:16:13 <elliott> Vorpal: lol he also contributes to http://www.j30ad.org/
22:16:14 <Vorpal> cpressey, waiting for oerjan
22:16:28 <elliott> which i can't figure out what it is
22:16:41 <Vorpal> elliott, and to that snowflake-OS thingy in ocaml iirc
22:16:52 <fizzie> I speculate a møøse-related incident.
22:17:15 <elliott> "Although AWOS cannot run a desktop environment, the lead developer recommends real X11 applications over a desktop environment (i.e. xfm is preferred over Konqueror or Nautilus)."
22:17:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you know, they can be pretty nasty.
22:17:26 <elliott> http://linuxmint.com/software/pictures/screenshots/1152/Xfm.jpg xfm
22:17:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes bit why now
22:17:38 <elliott> It's not real if they use libraries!
22:18:07 <Vorpal> elliott, if you hope that attacks on him will work against me you are utterly wrong
22:18:09 <cpressey> Why would you ever write your own OS just to have it run the monstrosity that is the X Window system?
22:18:26 <elliott> stop being so self-centred
22:18:37 <elliott> cpressey: BECAUSE IT'S POSIX ENGINEERING TECHNOLOGY(TM)(TM)(R)(TM)
22:18:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you highlighted me
22:18:41 <Vorpal> "<elliott> Vorpal: oh it's from *that* place."
22:18:49 <elliott> Vorpal: because it was relevant to you having said you knew awilcox
22:18:51 <elliott> and then not specifying why
22:19:05 <elliott> cpressey: omg i get to use the a20 line
22:19:08 <elliott> cpressey: how awesome is that
22:19:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well I knew him from another irc network before he first showed up in ##socialites
22:19:59 <cpressey> elliott: using-both-x-and-y-inputs-of-an-oscillator awesome
22:20:26 <elliott> cpressey: yes, THAT awesome.
22:20:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I just looked at the license of AWOS. It seems to be BSD style
22:20:58 <Vorpal> not apache 1 any more at least
22:20:59 <cpressey> Vorpal, Even though it is a full-featured operating environment, AWOS is completely free and open-source.
22:21:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, hah. It's a hobby OS as far as I can tell
22:21:15 <cpressey> add quotes to that as you see fit
22:21:21 <fizzie> cpressey: You've seen that "Youscope" demo?
22:21:53 <elliott> Vorpal: a lot of hobby os developers like to pretend it's something more.
22:22:14 <Vorpal> elliott, well, that's his problem
22:22:33 <elliott> <Vorpal> cpressey, hah. It's a hobby OS as far as I can tell
22:22:37 <cpressey> awilcox, What are your computer's specs? Does it have a name?
22:23:09 <elliott> cpressey: quick name my OS
22:23:11 <Vorpal> I think he had a mac mini?
22:23:37 <fizzie> cpressey: It it at least in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1eNjUgaB-g -- made with a sound card and a computer, so it's a bit of a cheat, but still.
22:23:38 <Vorpal> cpressey, awesome name
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22:25:11 <Vorpal> elliott, no, Yak-MATIC
22:25:45 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why I didn't highlight fizzie :P
22:26:23 <Vorpal> I seen youscope long ago
22:27:18 <Vorpal> elliott, vector display right?
22:27:49 <cpressey> fizzie: that is the coolest thing i have seen in months
22:28:07 <elliott> cpressey: tempo -- perfect boring name for an os or perfect boring name for an os?
22:28:08 <fizzie> elliott: Maybe the vector display question was in re your OS.
22:28:21 <elliott> fizzie: i thought it might be, but decided to ignore that possible meaning intentionally.
22:28:55 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTApvwqZ_TM Doom on an oscilloscope! ...but it's just a PC with a real monitor in there, so fuck that shit.
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22:29:27 <Vorpal> <fizzie> elliott: Maybe the vector display question was in re your OS.
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22:30:06 <Vorpal> classical oscopes in x/y mode are vector displays right?
22:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, so extremely high "DPI" then so to speak
22:30:56 <Vorpal> awesome, we should all use such instead
22:31:43 <elliott> fizzie: can you beat TEMPO??? maybe YAK-MOOSE?
22:32:17 <Vorpal> elliott, TIME SIGNATURE
22:32:41 <fizzie> elliott: Why not TempOS, the temporary OS -- aren't all OSes governmentally obligated to have "OS" in the name? (You know, like SunOS, OS-X, BeOS, MenuetOS, uh.. LinOSx, WindwOS, OSpenBSD, FrOSBSD, HOSrd, QOSNX...)
22:33:20 <fizzie> MicrOSoft, though -- maybe that already counts.
22:34:58 <fizzie> SGI OSirix, with the Egyptian theme.
22:35:22 <elliott> is emacs any good at intel-syntax asm?
22:36:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: with what mode?
22:36:20 <fizzie> I have a crummy nasm-mode, I think I advertised it already. It's a bit annoyingly automatic when it comes to indentation and such though, being tweaked to my own use.
22:36:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Not very good at assembler-specific syntax, in my experience.
22:36:35 <elliott> fizzie: How do you indent? :P
22:37:50 <fizzie> elliott: Well, there's stuff like when you write in a : that ends a label (at the beginning of line), it auto-adds either a tab or a newline+tab if the label is too long.
22:38:05 <fizzie> And there was some trickery with comments.
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22:38:23 <elliott> fizzie: But, but what about functions? You have their names on the same line? :P
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22:39:36 <fizzie> Sometimes I just add a newline for clarity; it auto-adds one tab of indent if the previous non-empty line had one (or was a label).
22:40:07 <elliott> fizzie: And strips off the indent from the last line?
22:40:24 <elliott> fizzie: Also, are we talking real tabs here or cheap plastic imitations of tabs (i.e. spaces)?
22:40:45 <fizzie> I actually based it on someone else's mode which was even more full of automation (kept reindenting comments based on whether they had 1/2/3 comment-start-chars in front.
22:41:16 <fizzie> Real tabs, at least with that use-tabs setting (I forget the name) on.
22:41:22 <elliott> Editors that do things not directly related to the keys I press scare me a bit, but I think I could handle that label stuff.
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22:41:35 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, hit me up with the .el :P
22:42:04 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/nasm-mode.el unless I typoed something.
22:42:46 <fizzie> But again, it wasn't really written for public consumption, so I take no responsibility if it annoys you to the point of spontaneous combustion.
22:43:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it support SSE4.2?
22:43:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I see some SSE instructions there
22:43:50 <elliott> fizzie: It works! But what's the magic to associate file extensions with a certain mode again?
22:43:52 <Vorpal> elliott, so stop laughing at that question
22:44:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I was ha ha haing at using SSE.
22:44:11 <Vorpal> "cvtdq2pd" "cvtdq2ps" "cvtpd2dq" "cvtpd2pi" "cvtpd2ps" "cvtph2ps"
22:44:11 <Vorpal> "cvtpi2pd" "cvtpi2ps" "cvtps2dq" "cvtps2pd" "cvtps2ph" "cvtps2pi"
22:44:16 <Vorpal> elliott, from that file ^
22:44:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Did I ever deny that?
22:44:29 <elliott> You're really good at (probably unintentional) strawman arguments.
22:44:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm not sure; I took the instruction lists from the NASM manual, but not sure which version.
22:45:38 <fizzie> elliott: I just put "-*- mode: nasm -*-" in my nasm sources, since I have both .s and .asm files of different types too. But it was something like that.
22:46:02 <elliott> fizzie: Did you base it on this? http://onegeek.org/~tom/software/the_bin/nasm-mode.el
22:46:07 <elliott> Apparently there's an existing nasm-mode besides.
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22:47:45 <fizzie> elliott: I don't think I used that; can't recall what I used.
22:48:02 <Vorpal> xsha256 must he fairly new
22:48:21 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Or maybe I just didn't notice; "rel" is there.
22:48:30 <elliott> fizzie: What, no instruction highlighting?
22:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, for when you need addresses with respect to rip or something.
22:49:15 <fizzie> elliott: It does have; try closing and reopening. I think Emacs just gets confused by the huge lists.
22:49:37 <elliott> nop got highlighted there but only in strange circumstances.
22:49:42 <elliott> fizzie: Uh, and it'll work after that, right?
22:50:17 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, everything has to be in a label.
22:51:04 <elliott> fizzie: And, uh, sometimes it just doesn't highlight.
22:51:22 <fizzie> Well, it seems to be confused by editing at unpredictable times; I don't quite see how that could be my bug, since I just basically list the keywords.
22:51:48 <fizzie> The 6502 mode, with its lot smaller list of opcodes, works much better. :p
22:51:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm going to use recursive make just to spite you.
22:52:01 <elliott> fizzie: Some regexp issue?
22:52:04 <Vorpal> elliott, err. I never hated it that much
22:52:11 <Vorpal> I do slightly dislike it
22:52:18 <elliott> cpressey: I'm going to use recursive make just to spite you.
22:52:54 <fizzie> elliott: Feel free to fix it; I use regexp-opt to construct the highlight regexps from those large lists.
22:53:42 <elliott> fizzie: Hmm, is "bits 16" the default?
22:53:49 <elliott> org 0 definitely is, though.
22:54:08 <fizzie> Or maybe the default bits depends on the output format.
22:54:19 <elliott> fizzie: It defaults to raw, right?
22:55:07 <fizzie> Yes. Well, "bin" as they call it.
22:55:24 <elliott> fizzie: And I'm thinking I should probably specify this in the .s anyway just for clarity...
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22:57:27 <elliott> Hmm, er, my org stuff doesn't seem to be working
22:58:48 <elliott> 00000001 E9FCFF jmp word 0x0
22:58:51 <elliott> That is definitely not what should be happening.
22:59:08 <elliott> Vorpal: REVERSE RECURSIVE MAKEFILE
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22:59:32 <Vorpal> uh just about to turn off monitor
22:59:35 <Vorpal> elliott, wtf does that mean
22:59:43 <elliott> Vorpal: the makefile in each subdirectory
22:59:48 <elliott> Vorpal: just calls the makefile in the parent directory
22:59:56 <elliott> Vorpal: (possibly with the directory it's in prepended to the target)
22:59:58 <Vorpal> elliott, interesting idea
23:00:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Actually I'm just going to have a bunch of Makefiles for each component and a single Makefile that includes them all.
23:00:16 <Vorpal> elliott, awesomely evil idea
23:00:40 <fizzie> elliott: If you ndisasm the bin, you need to "ndisasm -o 0x1234" to tell it where it is, otherwise it gets relative stuff (like jumps) wrong.
23:00:53 <elliott> fizzie: Oh. Well that explains it, then.
23:01:08 <elliott> SO WHAT'S YOU GUYS' FAVOURITE SYNTAX FOR HEX
23:01:26 <elliott> $F00, 0xF00, or F00h? I just wanna spark a religious war, is that so wrong?
23:02:35 <fizzie> I write 0xf00 in nasm, $f00 in z80asm/ca65 and "10h" for the x86 "int 10h" instruction, nowhere else.
23:02:52 <Vorpal> elliott, 16#f00, but that is erlang syntax
23:03:04 <elliott> fizzie: 0xF00 seems so strange in asm to me.
23:03:19 <Vorpal> 0xfoo is what I prefer of the alternatives
23:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, with lowercase letters of course
23:03:31 <elliott> your opinion is irrelevant
23:03:36 <fizzie> Just don't put in "0hfoo", that's just wrong. (NASM will eat that too.)
23:03:42 <elliott> anyway but $f00 is so pretty and nice, is it not fizzie?
23:04:18 <fizzie> It's not a fizzie, that's true. It's perfectly okay, of course.
23:05:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, TV Tropes' Main.FetishFuel article now redirects to TroperTales.FetishFuel.
23:07:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: But can you write anything in TroperTales.FetishFuel if it doesn't happen to be your own fetish?
23:08:44 <Phantom_Hoover> They actually had a point when they started cleaning up Nightmare Fuel; it has drifted from its original meaning. But this is blasphemy! This is madness!
23:12:00 <Phantom_Hoover> It wouldn't even be as bad if the Troper Tales pages weren't so atrociously coloured.
23:16:11 <elliott> Anyone know how to get the directory of the current Makefile as a make variable?
23:17:07 <elliott> Or even just the full path.
23:17:14 <elliott> Or the argument to -f, say.
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23:19:47 <quintopia> iirc you can execute arbitrary bash commands in a makefile, yes?
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23:24:35 <zzo38> When I program the VANSPEC database on BBL/Abundance Forth system, I can write like: HERE 0 , HERE - DUP ALLOT -1 * CONSTANT CELLSIZE
23:25:50 <elliott> zzo38: what's that assembler you use/wrote?
23:26:45 <zzo38> elliott: I made a assembler 888ASM, for x86, mostly only 16-bits. However I might make a improved one later, if I need a x86 assembler program again.
23:27:03 <elliott> zzo38: But I'm going to write my bootloader in it!
23:28:32 <zzo38> elliott: You can use 888ASM for now, I guess, if you want to; but there are some things which isn't very good, so I can rewrite a new one, which can work better, such as including both 16-bits and 32-bits mode, and some other things too.
23:28:46 <elliott> I'm probably actually just going to use nasm :P
23:29:50 <elliott> zzo38: Why do you have str_equal? It's the same as !strcmp(x,y).
23:29:55 <zzo38> elliott: OK use nasm if you want to. But I just wrote my own. (If I write a new one, I plan it should be (mostly) compatible with 888ASM)
23:30:07 <elliott> zzo38: Also str_find is literally strchr.
23:30:16 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, if I write a new one that is one thing I can fix. I can also fix it to have dynamic memory allocation, and other things, too.
23:31:40 <zzo38> Maybe new one can be called 889ASM instead! And it can support the same .asm files as 888ASM, but 889ASM files would not necessarily work with 888ASM, though.
23:33:26 <zzo38> (Note to anyone using my internationalization.wi program: It is suggested to add all translatable strings to the index.)
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23:34:01 <Sgeo> Where is my computer security book?
23:34:08 <Sgeo> I need it for homework due today
23:34:14 <Sgeo> Which I had a month to do, but whatever
23:34:18 <zzo38> Sgeo: Which computer security book?
23:34:28 <Sgeo> I don't remember the name
23:34:31 <Sgeo> The one for my class
23:35:47 <zzo38> You probably lost the other book under the bed, also.
23:36:42 <Sgeo> There are a lot of things under my bed
23:36:52 <Sgeo> My textbook, sadly, is not among those things
23:37:00 <zzo38> 888ASM uses only hexadecimal numbers. If I make 889ASM, it will use hexadecimal numbers by default, too, but I might have some codes to select decimal or octal as well.
23:37:08 <zzo38> Sgeo: What thing is under your bed? The floor?
23:37:09 <Sgeo> At least, as far as I can tell
23:37:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:37:58 <Sgeo> Some underwear, a nasal spray, some paper, a plastic bag, some envelope of something addressed to me
23:38:29 <Sgeo> Some wrapper for a snack that I do not eat
23:38:48 <Sgeo> ^^not an all inclusive list
23:39:46 <elliott> No seriously though, anyone with Makefile-fu?
23:40:07 <zzo38> I don't know much about Makefile. I don't write Makefile
23:42:55 * Sgeo decides to pirate the book
23:43:02 <Sgeo> They have my money anyway
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23:50:28 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:50:32 <elliott> root=$(shell dirname $(lastword $(MAKEFILE_LIST)))/..
23:50:32 <elliott> include $(root)/include.make
23:50:42 <elliott> Shroten this, receive prize.
23:50:46 -!- catseye has set topic: All your BASIC are belong to us | 8 days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:51:58 <catseye> Is the prize a spider three times as big as me? NOTE: The awesome thing about such spider is, no matter how big you are, it is BIGGER
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23:54:31 <catseye> < Vorpal> elliott, so extremely high "DPI" then so to speak
23:54:39 <catseye> yes, except no, because there is... only one dot.
23:56:47 <zzo38> When reading the book "TeX: The Program", I can already see many things which can be improved.
23:56:54 <catseye> fizzie: I am henceforth going to refer to it as WindwOS.
00:00:43 <catseye> < elliott> Vorpal: just calls the makefile in the parent directory
00:00:53 <catseye> dependency injected inversion-of-control visitor pattern
00:01:21 <catseye> < elliott> $F00, 0xF00, or F00h? I just wanna spark a religious war, is that so wrong?
00:01:35 <catseye> $ for 6502. h suffix should die.
00:02:05 <Sgeo> Note to self: Do not aneurism early while reading this text
00:02:06 <Sgeo> "For instance, the programmer in the examples above may have written code to check for correctness on the client's side (that is, the user's browser)."
00:02:14 <catseye> < elliott> anyway but $f00 is so pretty and nice, is it not fizzie?
00:02:25 <catseye> it is not fizzie. Also, I didn't realize you could use it on x86 anywhere.
00:03:26 <Sgeo> The author proceeds to explain why it's a crap idea in the next paragraph
00:03:45 -!- nooga has joined.
00:07:34 <storkbot> catseye: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
00:07:41 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:08:26 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
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00:19:11 <catseye> Cool, I have xfce4 with actual "window management" featurez now
00:19:16 <catseye> And it does the virtual desktops thing
00:22:29 <zzo38> catseye: It is not right. It has a question mark in there.
00:23:41 <catseye> Thanks zzo38. I think I see what I need to fix.
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00:26:07 <catseye> So, coördination. Hey, that looks right to me.
00:26:32 <catseye> It didn't work when I tried it in the bash command line, but, well, ok. I don't need it there yet!
00:30:07 * Sgeo wonders why biennale.py doesn't del the variable names and function names it uses
00:30:19 <catseye> The scite distribution is a semi-zipbomb. It creates two versionless directories.
00:31:04 <quintopia> anyone here know what to do if xrandr says "no protocol specified can't open display :0.0" and it can't open display 1 or 2 or anything either?
00:31:16 <quintopia> surely there's gotta be a way to figure out what display is displaying?
00:31:18 <Sgeo> elliott, Python virus
00:31:29 <elliott> Sgeo: Why would it del anything?
00:31:52 <Sgeo> To prevent accidentally interfering with the host program
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00:33:16 <catseye> quintopia: check /tmp for stale named sockets? this is largely a guess
00:33:52 <catseye> elliott: the file manager kind of sucks a little bit in that it doesn't always understand what a "directory" is
00:34:46 <quintopia> catseye: figured it out. can't run it as su.
00:35:02 <Sgeo> "Viruses cannot infect hardware. True. "
00:35:19 <elliott> Sgeo: yes you can, no it's not particularly relevant, the end
00:35:19 <Sgeo> What does something like flashable CMOS count as?
00:35:26 <catseye> elliott: i double-click on 'build', all good, it cd's there; i double-click on another directory, nothing. then 'build' doesn't let itself be changed into either. i either triggered a bug, or i have something messed up.
00:35:37 <Sgeo> Software, or firmware, i guess
00:35:53 <elliott> catseye: that's... uh... that should work.
00:35:58 <elliott> catseye: i can click directories forever here.
00:36:21 <elliott> catseye: i can also click the buttons at the top to navigate through the path i'm in, and go to the *directories* inside :P
00:36:56 <catseye> elliott: do your dirs always have folder icons? some of mine have file icons.
00:37:02 <catseye> well "piece of paper" icons
00:37:05 <elliott> catseye: always folders here. screenshot please?
00:37:09 <elliott> catseye: are they special directories in any way?
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00:37:22 <elliott> catseye: and it is thunar, yes?
00:37:25 <catseye> hm, i hope this supports screenshots
00:37:30 <elliott> catseye: xfce doesn't, I use scrot
00:37:46 <elliott> catseye: $ sleep 2; scrot -bs foo.png
00:37:53 <elliott> catseye: enter, move to the window you want, wait two seconds, click it
00:37:56 <elliott> voila, screenshot of window
00:38:05 <elliott> I have Thunar 1.0.2, but Thunar definitely isn't that buggy :)
00:38:32 <elliott> catseye: pmake is similar to bsdmake right?
00:38:53 <catseye> except for the FAKE PMAKE project
00:39:11 <catseye> which was some dude implementing make in perl for NO REASON
00:39:36 <elliott> "Performs the same function as make(1) but is written entirely in perl. A subset of GNU make extensions is supported. For details see Make for the underlying perl module."
00:39:54 <elliott> I like how he doesn't even bother innovating, everyone else ever realised how bad makefiles are for building software projects
00:40:05 <elliott> catseye: oh wow, this almost works with pmake:
00:40:05 <elliott> root=$(dirname $(lastword $(MAKEFILE_LIST)))/..
00:40:05 <elliott> include $(root)/include.make
00:40:25 <elliott> now it should work entirely. maybe
00:40:28 <catseye> innovating requires creativity. implementing just requires following instructions.
00:40:36 <catseye> we are following instructions SO HARD right now
00:41:52 <elliott> "Many developers think that Python will be the language of the future. It is multiplatform, but not easy to write."
00:42:00 <elliott> i wonder what language they think is easier to write
00:42:33 <elliott> "Of course adding a piece of new code to a software might always damage it, but this is not its main purpose. Additionally, Python is only useful on servers, which are usually run by professionals who know how to trace and treat a virus."
00:42:44 <elliott> yeah i've never used a gui python application
00:42:50 <elliott> "That means 'biennale.py' would never infect personal/ private/ home computers?
00:42:51 <elliott> 0100101110101101.ORG: Probably not, at least not this version. Maybe in future when the language will be also used on PCs, there might be a danger."
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00:47:33 <catseye> SO HARD, in fact, that the machine lost power
00:53:07 <elliott> catseye: do you have any make-fu :(
00:53:20 <elliott> catseye: also you said the h prefix should die?
00:53:36 <elliott> http://catseye.tc/projects/befos/src/boot/beboot.s
00:53:45 <elliott> (ok so i wanted to steal your bootloader code)
00:54:50 <catseye> that was translated from TASM
00:55:05 <elliott> catseye: also, yes $ does work in nasm at least
00:55:09 <catseye> anyway, not a practice i want to continue
00:55:16 <elliott> latter is much nicer looking
00:55:23 <elliott> and a better cue for the eyes
00:55:31 <catseye> i approve of its 6502homageness
00:56:38 <elliott> catseye: still though, urgh, please tell me you can make my makefile system work
00:58:20 <catseye> SciTEGTK.cxx:656: error: 'MAX_PATH' was not declared in this scope
00:58:47 <catseye> ("because people cannot write software" is technically correct but will not count towards your total)
01:00:29 <elliott> root := $(dir $(lastword $(MAKEFILE_LIST)))/..
01:01:30 <catseye> Hah. MAX_PATH is a WindwOS thing.
01:03:48 <Gregor> PATH_MAX is the equivalent, but don't use it.
01:04:27 <Gregor> (Some OSes don't have a maximum path length, and so either don't define PATH_MAX or define it arbitrarily)
01:04:42 <catseye> Max Path. He's on the case. He's one dangerously confused sumbitch. And he is ON the case, y'hear?
01:06:31 <catseye> CXXFLAGS:=$(CXXFLAGS) -DMAX_PATH=260
01:07:24 <catseye> and will probably give me all the limitations of WindwOS in this regard. nice
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01:08:16 <catseye> yeah, now it's stuck on '_environ'
01:09:20 <catseye> yeah, i need to define 'unix', nice
01:11:01 <elliott> boot//../common.make:4: warning: overriding commands for target `/home/elliott/code/tempo/build'
01:11:01 <elliott> common.make:4: warning: ignoring old commands for target `/home/elliott/code/tempo/build'
01:11:21 <Sgeo> You look better when I'm drunk
01:12:39 <catseye> hey! i did write a boot block for that, didn't i
01:12:49 <catseye> it does almost nothing except boot, iirc
01:16:42 <elliott> catseye: mine's going to do nothing except boot :P
01:17:40 <catseye> elliott: what did you decide to write it in?
01:17:49 <elliott> catseye: nasm, how boring is that?
01:18:07 <catseye> nasm is an exciting mystery like rainbows and giraffes
01:18:12 <elliott> catseye: but it's ok, i'm stuffing all my weirdness into makefiles
01:18:16 <catseye> and, of course... electricity
01:19:13 <elliott> build := $(abspath $(root)/build)
01:19:14 <elliott> space := $(empty_string) #
01:19:14 <elliott> build_escaped := $(subst $(space),\ ,$(build))
01:19:26 <elliott> catseye: "you are not expected to understand this"
01:19:40 <elliott> catseye: all that lets you have spaces in the build path :)
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01:23:19 <elliott> catseye: this is worse than recursive make
01:23:24 <elliott> catseye: but damn, it's GNU.
01:23:36 <elliott> possibly the most gnu thing i've ever written
01:25:38 <catseye> i see how you are using the adjective gnu there it is very apropos
01:26:32 <catseye> elliott: http://imgur.com/2OtrI
01:26:50 <catseye> also, my launch panel icons are... mostly missing, actually
01:27:06 <catseye> i think i shall try rebuilding it or somehting
01:27:45 <elliott> catseye: hey i should have $(AS) be a var so people can set it to yasm :D
01:27:53 <catseye> yup, file manager has a one-directory-change limit. after that, NO MORE CD FOR YOU!
01:27:59 <elliott> catseye: you're missing icons for one
01:28:08 <elliott> catseye: also, gtk thjemes
01:28:18 <elliott> catseye: try going into appearances and setting it to something that isn't Raleigh :P
01:28:19 <Sgeo> "The solution, oddly enough, is to artificially pad the encryption process with unnecessary computation so that short computations complete as slowly as long ones.
01:28:22 <Sgeo> I understand why
01:28:25 <Sgeo> It makes sense
01:28:31 <Sgeo> But it still gives me a headache
01:28:46 <catseye> FORI=1TO1000:NEXT gives you a headache?
01:29:44 <Sgeo> I just don't think I'd think of these things on my own
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01:30:26 <catseye> elliott: "going into appearances"?
01:30:42 -!- dbc has joined.
01:31:05 <elliott> catseye: ok, let me confirm
01:31:09 <elliott> catseye: what package did you install for xfce
01:31:32 <catseye> NOT ENOUGH OF THEM, apparently
01:32:25 <catseye> ./xfce4-desktop/work ./xfce4-exo/work ./xfce4-panel/work ./xfce4-session/work ./xfce4-terminal/work
01:32:49 <catseye> I... will install everything else that says 'xfce4' on it
01:32:52 <elliott> catseye: is there just an xfce4 package?
01:33:16 <catseye> /home/catseye/pkgsrc/x11/xfce4-gtk2-engine good bet
01:33:20 <catseye> elliott: no. no there isn't.
01:34:15 <catseye> ah there's also an xfce4-settings package
01:34:28 <catseye> STRANGE how these are not DEPENDENCIES>
01:36:16 <catseye> Also, how do you add items to the menu? Wait, I bet that's part of the system I don't have installed yet,
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01:37:21 <elliott> catseye: but yeah just install everything :P
01:38:17 <elliott> @echo "MKDIR\t"$(subst $(space),\ ,$@)
01:38:17 <elliott> @mkdir $(subst $(space),\ ,$@)
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01:41:54 <elliott> catseye: common.make http://sprunge.us/ACDb
01:41:55 <elliott> catseye: start of boot/Makefile http://sprunge.us/VEFZ
01:41:57 <elliott> catseye: behold the insanity!
01:43:06 <elliott> catseye: alas, it does not yet handle tabs in the BUILD directory! i shall fix.
01:43:12 <elliott> gnu make *really* needs user-defined macros.
01:43:52 <elliott> catseye: I COULD RUN THE MAKEFILES THROUGH CPP OMG
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01:44:49 <elliott> catseye: i am so going to do that
01:45:06 <elliott> (i'm actually not going to.)
01:45:44 <catseye> elliott: do it it will be a blast
01:46:46 <elliott> catseye: ansi colours, maybe!
01:46:51 <elliott> catseye: i might bold all the command names or something :)
01:47:44 <elliott> catseye: $(build)/boot/bootsector: prog = $(AS) ; $(generic)
01:47:47 <elliott> generic would then do like
01:47:56 <elliott> $(prog) $($(prog)FLAGS) $< -o $@
01:48:46 <elliott> catseye: you can override variables for a rule's body in the dependencies
01:48:50 <elliott> catseye: then ; just acts like newline-tab
01:49:02 <elliott> generic would be a variable defined with the define ... endef syntax
01:49:27 <elliott> catseye: hell no, gnu make
01:49:33 <elliott> catseye: none of the other makes are exciting enough to let this work
01:51:58 <elliott> catseye: on the upside, this build system will scale to the hideously complex Tempo 2024, when it's the most popular OS on the planet :P
01:54:40 <elliott> catseye: oh sweet, i have to escape it in EVERY SINGLE RULE
01:54:44 <catseye> actually, huh. that's ony 14 years away. i won't be THAT old.
01:54:52 <elliott> catseye: you are already THAT old.
01:54:52 <Sgeo> I still need to email Fidelity
01:55:52 <catseye> Of course 2024 could be just the version number, not the year
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02:01:45 <elliott> catseye: woo, my build system is blowing up!
02:04:52 <elliott> $(eval include $(build)/config.make)
02:04:56 <elliott> catseye: this could not get any more hilarious
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02:07:19 <elliott> catseye: doesn't actually help, as it turns out :)
02:07:37 <elliott> catseye: omg i can use $(shell) without a variable
02:07:55 <elliott> $(shell $(MAKE) -f $(root)/common.make $(build)/config.make)
02:08:04 <elliott> IT SO NEARLY ALMOST WORKS OMG
02:08:14 <catseye> this is certainly an interesting path you've gone down in your BOOT LOADER PROJECT
02:08:47 <elliott> catseye: isn't it, like, a rule that OSes have to have hideously complex build systems?
02:09:02 <catseye> complex *and* objectionabl
02:10:29 <elliott> $(shell echo make -w -f $(root)/common.make $(build)/config.make >foo)
02:10:57 <elliott> i hate myself for existing
02:11:19 <catseye> you should take out all the 'rules' stuff and just use this language
02:11:33 <elliott> catseye: i should scrap all of this and just use recursive make, shouldn't i?
02:12:01 <catseye> are you doing this to try to avoid recursion?
02:12:13 <elliott> catseye: well, i'm doing it as part of something that's like 500x better than recursion
02:12:19 <elliott> but, with recursion, it would be a relatively simple task, yes.
02:12:24 <elliott> not actually all that less, but
02:12:33 <elliott> make: /home/elliott/code/tempo/common.make:32: pipe: Too many open files
02:12:34 <elliott> /home/elliott/code/tempo/common.make:36: /home/elliott/code/tempo/build/config.make: No such file or directory
02:12:34 <elliott> make: /home/elliott/code/tempo/common.make:32: pipe: Too many open files
02:13:23 <catseye> that is the first time i've seen make complain about THAT
02:13:53 <elliott> oh my dear god it almost works
02:15:10 <elliott> common.make:43: /home/elliott/code/tempo/build/config.make: No such file or directory
02:15:10 <elliott> MKDIR/home/elliott/code/tempo/build
02:15:10 <elliott> /home/elliott/code/tempo/boot//../common.make:43: /home/elliott/code/tempo/build/config.make: No such file or directory
02:15:10 <elliott> CONFIGCopying default configuration. make: `/home/elliott/code/tempo/build/config.make' is up to date.
02:15:10 <elliott> /bin/sh: Syntax error: EOF in backquote substitution
02:15:12 <elliott> make: *** [/home/elliott/code/tempo/build/config.make] Error 2
02:15:14 <elliott> catseye: could it get any better?
02:15:28 <Sgeo> My dad is claiming that some of the information I received in the CPR class is dangerously wrong
02:15:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Your dad claims an awful lot of things.
02:15:48 <Sgeo> elliott, my dad _is_ a doctor
02:16:27 <elliott> dear god wtf is up with my build system
02:18:28 <catseye> did i not install ghc yet? oh right, i think i tried building it from source, where it needs to be bootstrapped
02:18:40 <catseye> the pkgsrc looks like it's installing ok so far
02:18:46 <elliott> ifeq ($(shell test -e $(build)/config.make; echo $$?),0)
02:19:01 <elliott> catseye: if you install pkgsrc ghc, I'll walk you through building the latest ghc.
02:19:09 <elliott> catseye: It's alright, really, it just takes a little while.
02:19:23 <catseye> oh right i'm sure i remember all this from before as if in a dream
02:19:48 <catseye> /usr/bin/ar: Control/Concurrent_stub.o: No such file or directory
02:20:06 <elliott> catseye: install the binary package
02:20:14 <elliott> catseye: you won't be using this, anyway, it's just to compile the new one
02:20:27 <elliott> catseye: GNU MAKE HAS MACROS
02:20:37 <elliott> I AM THE WORST KIND OF PERSON
02:22:29 <catseye> they srsly have no bin pkg for ghc for 5.0.2
02:22:44 <catseye> trying slightly older set of pkgs
02:22:46 <elliott> catseye: because we can get our own
02:23:11 <catseye> ok they got a slightly older pkg
02:23:32 <elliott> catseye: http://sprunge.us/BDgW
02:23:37 <elliott> catseye: look at the fucking amazing
02:24:14 <catseye> targets with embedded newlines
02:24:32 <catseye> or in fact, just a newline
02:24:40 <elliott> catseye: it's... yeah... i think i might use autotools
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02:26:35 <catseye> oh when autotools looks attractive, you KNOW you're in a fine position
02:27:48 <Sgeo> elliott, apparently, the disagreement is because he's not a part of the general public
02:28:17 <Sgeo> i can understand how the rules might be different for trained laypersons and medical responders
02:28:34 <catseye> the general public have a different kind of CPR that needs to be performed on them
02:28:39 <pikhq> Well, autotools does beat most of the other complicated build systems out there, primarily due to having better-understood limitations than others.
02:28:54 <elliott> pikhq: do you want to see my common.make? you will like it
02:29:04 <Sgeo> The general public finds it tricky to find a pulse, and might mistake non-pulse for pulse
02:29:13 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/ZbMN
02:29:19 <elliott> pikhq: It is the most horrible thing I have ever written in any language.
02:29:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: The taught CPR procedures recently changed due to new evidence of the efficacy of various methods.
02:29:52 <pikhq> Sgeo: Also, people find it hard to find a pulse? WTF. Takes all of an instant to find it on the wrist.
02:30:02 <Sgeo> pikhq, we were taught that rescue breaths are good if you're comfortable/have a face mask, but compressions are the priority
02:30:29 <Sgeo> And it's ok to do compressions without the rescue breaths
02:30:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes. That's a very recent change in procedure.
02:30:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: Like, "few months ago".
02:30:48 <elliott> pikhq: And an example directory Makefile using this system: http://sprunge.us/YIYA
02:31:04 <elliott> I call it "system"; more like "abomination".
02:31:14 <pikhq> elliott: Isn't GNU Make revolting?
02:31:29 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but not nearly as revolting as what I did to it without its consent.
02:31:43 <elliott> pikhq: I'm hoping to make the bootsector rule look like this:
02:31:57 <elliott> $(build)/boot/bootsector: compiler=AS ; $(generic)
02:32:03 <catseye> GHCi, version 6.8.3: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/ :? for help
02:32:09 <elliott> pikhq: This will involve generic doing $($(compiler)).
02:32:13 <elliott> catseye: Okay, I'll guide you through.
02:32:23 <catseye> elliott: i need to get food first
02:32:34 <elliott> and a thermos flask of coffee
02:32:37 <pikhq> elliott: Believe me, you want implicit rules. You wants it.
02:32:39 <catseye> i also have like a dozen other things going on
02:32:46 <elliott> pikhq: for a *bootsector*? no :P
02:32:54 <elliott> pikhq: in that case, it'll look like
02:33:23 <elliott> pikhq: $(build)/%.o: %.s $(dir $*) compiler=AS ; $(generic)
02:33:28 <elliott> pikhq: Or something. You see, I am *evil*.
02:33:48 <pikhq> elliott: A lot of people *really* discount how nice implicit rules make make.
02:34:00 <elliott> pikhq: Problems I'm trying to solve right now: With that $(build)/config.make rule, currently you get an "omg not found" error before it notices the rule and fixes it; I'd like to hide this. Also: "make build/boot/bootsector" should work rather than having to type out the full path.
02:34:16 <elliott> pikhq: Also: Fix general lack of soul due to programming this piece of shit.
02:34:17 <pikhq> elliott: Fun fact: the following is an entirely valid makefile for building a program with files foo.c, bar.c, and baz.c: foo: bar.c baz.c
02:34:25 <elliott> pikhq: It is not nearly sufficient for my purposes :P
02:34:41 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, well.
02:34:45 <elliott> pikhq: I need per-directory makefiles because of the relative complexity of building some of my components -- this is an *operating system* -- but I don't really want to use recursive make.
02:34:58 <elliott> pikhq: And I'd like it to automatically build in source-tree/build, but have that be configurable.
02:35:10 <elliott> pikhq: And I'd like to have a build-directory/config.make file with compiler settings, etc.
02:35:26 <elliott> pikhq: On the other hand... right now, recursive make is looking appealing as *fuck*.
02:35:28 <pikhq> elliott: Not only do you not want to use recursive make, you absolutely *should not* unless there are absolutely no cross-directory dependencies.
02:35:50 <elliott> pikhq: Cross-directory dependencies would simply be "directory Y can only be built after everything in directory X is done".
02:36:01 <pikhq> elliott: No. Recursive make is a tempting seductress, but she will do nasty things to your unmentionables.
02:36:23 <elliott> pikhq: I've already raped the slightly-demented kitten that is GNU Make to death. I think I deserve the torture.
02:36:34 <pikhq> elliott: It absolutely *breaks* dependency handling.
02:36:37 <elliott> pikhq: I mean come on, I've defined a string escape function just so you can have spaces in your build directory.
02:36:46 <elliott> root := $(dir $(lastword $(MAKEFILE_LIST)))/..
02:36:46 <elliott> include $(root)/common.make
02:36:56 <pikhq> elliott: Down that road lies only being able to do builds from a clean source dir.
02:37:04 <elliott> pikhq: There is no unclean source dir.
02:37:32 <pikhq> elliott: You will get raped.
02:37:44 <elliott> pikhq: The alternative right now is... autotools.
02:37:54 <pikhq> elliott: This is like relying on the specific behavior of a specific buffer overflow for a program. It. Will. Break.
02:38:26 <pikhq> elliott: And what's more, you lose a lot of parallelism. Because no one make process has a complete view of the dependency graph.
02:38:44 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, firstly, shut up, secondly, as I said, there can be no inter-directory parallelism *anyway(.
02:38:49 <elliott> Thirdly, *the alternative is this monstrosity*.
02:39:11 <pikhq> elliott: Recursive make *is* a monstrosity.
02:39:34 <elliott> pikhq: But a monstrosity that doesn't drive me insane to code it. Stop being a zealot.
02:39:39 <pikhq> elliott: Most of the problems with make-based build systems come about because of recursive make.
02:39:48 <elliott> pikhq: And this is not a conventional build.
02:39:57 <pikhq> elliott: Which only makes it worse.
02:40:10 <elliott> pikhq: Has anyone ever told you how you don't shut up when you're being a zealot?
02:40:31 <elliott> Especially when I KNOW THE REASONS NOT TO USE RECURSIVE MAKE IN EXCRUCIATING DETAIL >_<
02:40:46 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, fine. Build it your way. I refuse to have to package any of it.
02:41:06 <elliott> pikhq: I think you'll find you use software compiled with recursive make.
02:41:38 <pikhq> elliott: I think you'll find that I use a lot of shitty software.
02:41:57 <elliott> pikhq: I suppose you refused to use codu.org when it was omg served with the wrong headers too.
02:42:21 <pikhq> Nope, I just didn't stop hounding Gregor about it sucking.
02:42:49 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, *you* implement my build system.
02:43:17 <pikhq> elliott: Details about the program?
02:43:39 <elliott> pikhq: It's an operating system. It *will* involve custom rules, it *will* involve calling ld manually.
02:43:52 <elliott> pikhq: It *will* have subdirectories with files that need to be built differently.
02:43:54 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, an OS? So each directory would be a seperate program?
02:44:00 <elliott> Each directory is another component.
02:44:05 <elliott> e.g. bootloader, kernel, etc.
02:44:17 <Gregor> pikhq: HAVE YOU VALIDATED EVERY FILE ON CODU.ORG
02:44:24 <elliott> pikhq: It must be built in either SRC_ROOT/build or a user-specified build directory. The structure inside must mirror the outside directory structure.
02:44:33 <pikhq> That can't really have dependencies on each other except for maybe depending on the entire results of the directory...
02:44:37 <elliott> pikhq: "make build_dir/foo" must work. "make" must work. Preferably, "make some_dir.all" should work.
02:44:46 <elliott> pikhq: "make clean" should get rid of build_dir.
02:44:56 <pikhq> So, what you're saying is that recursive make is the correct answer.
02:45:00 <elliott> pikhq: Preferably, there will be some included makefile you could edit to set CC, AS, etc.
02:45:08 <pikhq> This is one of, like, 10 cases that recursive make is justified.
02:45:23 <pikhq> Gregor: No, I haven't validated a single one.
02:45:36 <Gregor> pikhq: So for all you know it's 100% pure rubbish!
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02:45:59 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, yeah, who cares about that Gregor Richards guy anyways?
02:46:13 <Gregor> THE WORLD CARES, PIKHQ
02:46:28 <pikhq> Good thing I put it into an asylum, then.
02:46:29 <elliott> MY WORLD IS EMANCIPATED FROM DUFFRIT HATS
02:46:56 <elliott> pikhq: Gahahaha I just realised this has similar problems
02:47:16 <pikhq> elliott: Have you considered replacing Make?
02:47:23 * pikhq feeds into NIH some more
02:47:27 <elliott> root := $(abspath $(dir $(lastword $(MAKEFILE_LIST)))/..)
02:47:27 <elliott> include $(build)/config.make
02:47:31 <elliott> so do not want that in every file.
02:48:27 <elliott> pikhq: arithmetic in gnu make: http://www.cmcrossroads.com/ask-mr-make/6504-learning-gnu-make-functions-with-arithmetic
02:48:57 <Gregor> http://codu.org/websplat/imgs/favicongoomba.php?domain=mozilla.org&frame=s6r.png
02:49:46 <elliott> Gregor: :( gnu.org's is too hard to make out
02:50:01 <elliott> pikhq: I am so tempted just to make these into shell scripts.
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02:56:00 <catseye> i would like a make which just implements the common functionality of gnu make and bsd make
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02:57:03 <pikhq> I would like a make which handles spaces in file names.
02:57:17 <elliott> pikhq: you just have to escape them
02:57:26 <elliott> note, in there, $@ will be the unescaped version
02:57:29 <elliott> because make just likes fucking with you
02:57:30 <pikhq> elliott: Doesn't work for implicit rules.
02:57:31 <Sgeo> http://mashable.com/2010/10/29/microsoft-silverlgiht-html/
02:57:55 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, make sucks ass.
02:58:09 <elliott> pikhq: so have you written my build system yet
02:59:17 <catseye> < pikhq> elliott: Details about the program?
02:59:23 <catseye> don't listen to him it's a boot block
02:59:40 <elliott> catseye: not even that yet
03:00:02 <elliott> pikhq: ok i have a wise observation
03:00:10 <elliott> pikhq: FUCK. THE LIVING FUCK. OUT OF OUT-OF-TREE-BUILDS.
03:00:14 <elliott> pikhq: AND FUCK CONFIGURATION FILES.
03:00:20 <elliott> i'm kicking it OLDSCHOOL, FUCK!
03:00:32 <elliott> pikhq: oh and FUCK having $(AS) and shit, you use nasm or you go to hell
03:00:33 <pikhq> elliott: Also, FUCK ANCIENT BUILD SYSTEMS.
03:00:34 <catseye> echo 'nasm boot.s -o boot' > make.sh && chmod 755 make.sh
03:00:36 <elliott> yasm? you're a fucking kiddo
03:00:46 <elliott> i'm hardcoding nasm in my makefiles
03:00:49 <elliott> because i'm just that hardcore, so fuck you
03:01:07 <elliott> pikhq: see, I've become sane again
03:01:08 <pikhq> gcc --make the_whole_program.c
03:01:15 <elliott> a healthy hate for your users is a good thing
03:01:15 <pikhq> WHY CAN'T WE HAVE NICE THINGS
03:01:17 <elliott> catseye: so have you got foods
03:02:02 <elliott> catseye: are you READY FOR THE MAGIC
03:02:04 * pikhq can has Pink Floyd discography.
03:02:06 <elliott> pikhq: is it right to append ".o" to the filename of things that are actually just raw machine code?
03:02:07 <pikhq> For great justice.
03:02:23 <pikhq> elliott: I'd go with .bin
03:02:38 <pikhq> elliott: .o suggests it's valid linker input.
03:02:43 <pikhq> elliott: "" works too.
03:03:47 <elliott> i should probably have all targets in my directory makefiles shouldn't i
03:04:18 <elliott> MAKE := $(MAKE) --no-print-directory
03:04:40 <elliott> oh wait needs to be MAKEFLAGS +=
03:06:22 <elliott> pikhq: what's the size of a proper floppy image again? it's the formatted size, right?
03:06:37 <Sgeo> What an awesome security feature, Opera
03:06:42 * Sgeo gives Opera the middle finger
03:07:04 <pikhq> elliott: 1440 kibibytes.
03:07:25 <elliott> pikhq: thing dd needs to do: not truncate a file after you write to it
03:07:31 <elliott> dd if=/dev/zero of=$@ bs=1k count=1440
03:07:31 <elliott> dd if=boot/bootsector of=$@
03:07:47 <Sgeo> 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 15; 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 14
03:07:59 <olsner> wtf, someone's highlighted me
03:08:13 <pikhq> elliott: The image can be smaller than that.
03:08:13 <Sgeo> It wasn't I, olsner
03:08:22 <catseye> Sgeo: stop numbering olsner!
03:08:25 <elliott> pikhq: i want it to be that size exactly :)
03:08:30 <olsner> then who is the transgressor of this transgression?
03:08:33 <elliott> pikhq: dd sucks because it can't do this
03:08:40 <elliott> pikhq: (I'm trying to bait you into telling me how to do it)
03:08:55 <catseye> olsner: this morning we were talking about swedes...
03:09:09 <olsner> catseye: aha, nothing important then
03:09:11 <pikhq> elliott: Add conv=notrunc
03:09:35 <olsner> I do see that Sgeo has been talking shit about Opera recently
03:09:36 <elliott> pikhq: seriously? that is the ugliest thing ever
03:09:47 <pikhq> dd's syntax is revolting.
03:10:04 <pikhq> I think it's actually an IBM mainframe import.
03:10:40 <elliott> pikhq: it was in unix 1 :)
03:10:49 <elliott> pikhq: but interestingly with a *sane* syntax
03:11:15 <catseye> no, everything should use dd's syntax!
03:11:39 <elliott> pikhq: now i add stuff to the bootsector rule to check it's 512 bytes or less :)
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03:14:15 <catseye> elliott: OK. I have eaten. I have full use of my hands. Where do I start?
03:14:28 <catseye> I assume I download something
03:14:52 <catseye> and if it's ghc-6.12.3-src.tar.bz2 i already have
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03:15:12 <elliott> catseye: indeed; unpack that
03:15:40 <olsner> 6.12 is probably considered old nowadays
03:15:54 <olsner> 7.0 has been mentioned, after all
03:15:56 <elliott> olsner: it being the latest release and all
03:16:34 <olsner> "latest" release means past release means old
03:16:39 <catseye> also configured, but not in any particular way
03:16:56 <elliott> catseye: do you care how big the resulting ghc is and stuff?
03:17:03 <elliott> catseye: looks like they've made things better
03:17:17 <elliott> catseye: it used to be hell to build
03:17:21 <elliott> catseye: do you have a dual-core system?
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03:17:38 <elliott> catseye: sorry for making you think it was complicated; it *used* to be
03:17:39 <olsner> I did build ghc 6.12.3 the other day, it was just configure/make/make install
03:17:43 <catseye> any ill effects if I want to --prefix=$HOME it?
03:17:51 <catseye> wow, I just verbed a fucking command line option
03:17:54 <elliott> catseye: well, it installs to /usr/local by default
03:18:03 <elliott> catseye: $HOME will be problematic, it has quite a lot of directories
03:18:09 <elliott> catseye: $HOME/local, sure. $HOME, no.
03:18:12 <elliott> catseye: i'd just install to /usr/local
03:18:19 <elliott> catseye: cabal installs to $HOME/.cabal anyway
03:18:25 <elliott> so you won't need to sudo for that regardless
03:18:39 <catseye> $HOME/local is too weird for me. i can live with this polluting the base, then
03:18:46 <olsner> and then I built 7.0 using llvm-backend for all of it, it was about as complicated as unix source-installs usually are :D
03:18:55 <elliott> catseye: /usr/local is hardly base :P
03:19:23 <elliott> catseye: then when that installs, we can build the HASKELL PLATFORM
03:20:04 <olsner> lol, the "platform" is for n00bs
03:20:27 <catseye> typical netbsd thing: % make <enter> errors x 61! <grr> % gmake
03:20:28 <elliott> olsner: you're full of shit :P
03:20:34 <elliott> catseye: yeah uh, use gmake
03:20:41 <olsner> (no, it's not: it's for everyone who doesn't really give a shit)
03:20:49 <elliott> and for everyone who gives a shit too
03:21:07 <elliott> unless you just LOVE manually installing tons of cabal packages for no freaking raeson
03:21:25 <elliott> catseye: oh, haskell platform is easy it seems
03:21:26 * olsner is full of shit for the people who want shit, due to the people who give shit
03:21:29 <catseye> olsner: it reminds me too much of python's easy_install stuff but elliott claims it's not really that similar
03:21:32 <elliott> catseye: once ghc is installed, http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/2010.2.0.0/haskell-platform-2010.2.0.0.tar.gz then configure gmake gmake install
03:21:38 <elliott> yeah cabal is a proper package manager at least
03:21:45 <olsner> cabal is much better than easy_install
03:21:52 <elliott> haskell platform is just a bunch of cabal libraries in one basically
03:22:12 <olsner> easy_install is just herp-derp-install-some-files
03:22:14 <elliott> catseye: haskell platform == "what should have been in the stdlib but isn't"
03:22:19 <catseye> i know i read some doc on it and some cabal interface is like *exactly* the same as setup.py's for the same thing, and it creeped me out
03:22:20 <elliott> easy_install is atrocious, i read the code once
03:22:27 <elliott> catseye: yes, but you still have the .cabal file
03:22:29 <olsner> cabal is from people who at least know some stuff
03:22:41 <elliott> catseye: you have to specify package name, versioned dependencies, all that stuff
03:23:08 <catseye> just tell me that the python people cargo-copied the haskell people and i will be happy
03:23:34 <elliott> catseye: the python people predated the haskell people
03:23:34 <olsner> I think you'll find they did *much worse* than copy anyone else
03:23:44 <elliott> rubygems might be older though
03:23:45 <catseye> ghc needs curses, i shall install that
03:23:48 <elliott> and even that's better than setup.py
03:23:55 <elliott> catseye: you also want to install editline
03:23:59 <elliott> if you don't already have it
03:24:00 <Sgeo> What's so bad about setup.py/
03:24:12 <olsner> catseye: and libgmp with headers, you'll also want
03:24:42 <catseye> gmp-5.0.1 Library for arbitrary precision arithmetic
03:24:51 <elliott> pikhq: my recursive make rules should be phony, right?
03:25:00 <catseye> they wouldn't begrudge you headers on netbsd
03:25:14 <olsner> wouldn't be so sure, I think some of the deps are hidden in recursive configure's or just libraries that will fali to build
03:25:20 <catseye> of course, it says i have curses too
03:25:22 <catseye> ncurses-5.7nb4 CRT screen handling and optimization package
03:25:33 <elliott> "CRT screen handling and optimization package", lovely
03:26:05 <elliott> pikhq: apparently my floppy isn't bootable!
03:26:09 <olsner> (it could well have been optimalization)
03:26:11 <elliott> pikhq: how does the bios tell if a floppy is bootable? x_x
03:26:29 <olsner> it has a boot sector with magic 0xaa55 flags?
03:26:48 <elliott> olsner: $AA $55 is just for the partition table on the hard disk, isn't it?
03:26:53 <catseye> catseye$ echo $LD_LIBRARY_PATH
03:26:54 <catseye> /home/catseye/lib:/usr/pkg/lib:/home/catseye/lib:/usr/pkg/lib:/home/catseye/lib:/usr/pkg/lib:/home/catseye/lib:/usr/pkg/lib:
03:26:57 <catseye> catseye$ ls -la /usr/pkg/lib/libncurses.so
03:26:59 <catseye> lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 19 Oct 27 19:33 /usr/pkg/lib/libncurses.so -> libncurses.so.5.0.7
03:27:06 <elliott> http://catseye.tc/projects/befos/src/boot/beboot.s certainly doesn't have it >:)
03:27:08 <catseye> checking for setupterm in -lncursesw... no
03:27:09 <catseye> checking for setupterm in -lncurses... no
03:27:09 <catseye> checking for setupterm in -lcurses... no
03:27:09 <catseye> configure: error: curses library not found, so this package cannot be built
03:27:17 <olsner> elliott: hmm, I thought it meant bootable, but sure
03:27:24 <elliott> olsner: it does for the partition table
03:28:01 <catseye> elliott: the install process might be doing some other crap to the bootblock as it installs it
03:28:11 <catseye> elliott: so make it find my curses
03:28:31 <elliott> catseye: try --with-curses=/usr/pkg
03:28:37 <elliott> catseye: also, make clean before all that ofc
03:28:54 <elliott> $(OBJDIR)/bekernel.com 1 \
03:28:59 <elliott> what the fuck kinda targets are that
03:29:08 -!- quintopia has left (?).
03:30:23 <catseye> whoa, and as the rest of xfce4 is installing, i am seeing icons where they should be
03:30:59 <elliott> catseye: btw, ghc does a two-stage bootstrap, you get to compile it *twice*!
03:31:08 <elliott> catseye: before make install on ghc, remember to remove your pkgsrc version
03:31:21 <elliott> hmm, does ghc install docs by default? whatever, they're online anyway
03:32:00 <catseye> it said it would build html docs
03:32:25 <elliott> make_bootable(FILE *outfile)
03:32:25 <elliott> fseek(outfile, 510, SEEK_SET);
03:32:25 <elliott> fwrite("\x55\xaa", 2, 1, outfile);
03:33:07 <catseye> well it's easier to put it there than in the asm, that's for sure
03:33:18 <olsner> hmm, looks like 0xaa55 that
03:33:26 <olsner> DOES THIS MEAN I WAS RIGHT?
03:33:45 <elliott> catseye: for SOME REASON you can't use org twice I WONDER WHY
03:34:08 <olsner> I LOVE IT WHEN I'M RIGHT
03:34:31 <catseye> it died on 'can't find curses' again
03:34:39 <catseye> this time after building everything
03:34:51 <elliott> catseye: even with --with-curses?
03:35:01 <olsner> curses, I'm sure you can provide an extensive set of those
03:36:12 <catseye> gmake triggers something *else* running configure somewhere else
03:37:24 <elliott> cal153: "Unlike the ORG directive provided by MASM-compatible assemblers, which allows you to jump around in the object file and overwrite code you have already generated, NASM's ORG does exactly what the directive says: origin. Its sole function is to specify one offset which is added to all internal address references within the section; it does not permit any of the trickery that MASM's version does."
03:37:27 <elliott> MASM could do this, how sad is that?
03:37:32 <catseye> even with --with-curses, that inner configure fails
03:37:35 <elliott> People writing boot sector programs in the bin format often complain that ORG doesn't work the way they'd like: in order to place the 0xAA55 signature word at the end of a 512-byte boot sector, people who are used to MASM tend to code
03:38:15 <olsner> you explicitly pad your program to put the magic stuff at the right offset
03:38:15 <catseye> elliott: use my bootblock installer program it is da bomb
03:38:25 <pikhq> elliott: IIRC, $ is the origin and $$ is the current address.
03:38:33 <pikhq> Erm, other way around.
03:38:48 <elliott> pikhq: even though my origin is 0 apparently i still have to do it like this says the manual
03:38:52 <elliott> catseye: it looked crap and your face is crap
03:38:58 <olsner> I think it makes sense, at least I think I get why ORG was not given any magic beyond telling how offsets are interpreted
03:39:08 <elliott> olsner: yeah but is it so much to ask for an "at" instruction?
03:39:23 <elliott> woo it "boots" (and does nothing)
03:39:37 <olsner> but boot sectors are ... once an operating system things?
03:39:57 <elliott> is this a conspiracy to stop people using $????
03:40:35 <olsner> no, this is a conspiracy only against elliott
03:40:40 <elliott> (possibly because of jews?)
03:40:42 <catseye> so, i have curses, but it doesn't support the function that it wants, it lookslike:
03:40:45 <catseye> configure:3737: gcc -o conftest -g -O2 conftest.c -lcurses >&5
03:40:48 <catseye> /var/tmp//ccIbLPmn.o: In function `main':
03:40:50 <catseye> /home/catseye/build/ghc-6.12.3/libraries/terminfo/conftest.c:29: undefined reference to `setupterm'
03:40:55 <elliott> catseye: aha! maybe your curses is like a bsd curses
03:41:00 <elliott> and you need to say -lncurses
03:41:22 <catseye> it tries -lcurses before it tries -lncurses
03:41:31 <catseye> i... should kill it for doing that
03:42:18 <olsner> how can you kill it for something before you have even brought it to life?
03:45:01 <catseye> it sez it can't find ncurses.h. i am reinstalling that package. it was installed because i installed cmake. i installed cmake to build Falcon. YOU SEE HOW THIS WORKS
03:45:23 <catseye> Falcon is sending its bad juju vibrations at Haskell via CURSES
03:47:12 <elliott> olsner: falcon the "language"
03:47:25 <olsner> and on that bombshell, it's time to end... or whatever they say on "television"
03:48:37 <Sgeo> catseye, why wasn't all Falcon-touching material done in a VM?
03:50:18 <elliott> olsner's entire experience of television is Top Gear
03:51:05 <catseye> this Haskell terminfo library is feral
03:51:17 <catseye> it lets me specify where curses.h is
03:51:22 <catseye> but not where ncurses.h is
03:51:32 <catseye> /usr/pkg/include/ncurses/ncurses.h
03:51:52 <catseye> I... am going to have to hack configure.ac
03:52:07 <elliott> catseye: nobody cares about bsds
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03:58:05 <pikhq> Y'know how Bush is so fond of saying "history will vindicate me"?
03:58:15 <pikhq> One other President talked like that.
03:58:47 <pikhq> Who could reasonably be regarded as the worst President.
03:59:10 <elliott> pikhq: my favourite president is William Henry Harrison
03:59:14 <pikhq> (the Civil War happened on his watch)
03:59:17 <elliott> he's the only one not to fuck anything up
04:00:28 <pikhq> His only act as President was to call a special session of Congress.
04:00:32 <catseye> /usr/pkg/include/ncurses/ncurses.h:66:33: error: ncurses/ncurses_dll.h: No such file or directory
04:01:02 <elliott> you don't need ncurses really
04:01:10 <elliott> pikhq: best president ever
04:01:17 <catseye> i need to disable terminfo from being built somehow then
04:01:30 <elliott> catseye: oh you probably want terminfo
04:01:42 <elliott> catseye: build ncurses from source into /usr/local? :P
04:01:47 <elliott> pikhq: did anything bad happen under his watch? nope.
04:02:04 <pikhq> elliott: Well, there's the *arguable* David Rice Atchison.
04:02:07 <catseye> elliott: feels so right how can it be wrong
04:02:45 <pikhq> elliott: James Polk's successor, Zachary Taylor refused to be sworn in on a Sunday, when James Polk's term ended.
04:03:08 <elliott> pikhq: However, while it is alleged that the offices of President and Vice President were vacant, Atchison in fact was not next in line. While the terms of President James K. Polk and Vice President George Mifflin Dallas had expired, Atchison's tenure as President pro tempore had already expired when the Thirtieth Congress adjourned sine die on March 3. He also never took the oath of office. No disability or lack of qualification prevented Taylor
04:03:08 <elliott> and Fillmore from taking office, and as they had been duly certified to take office that day as president-elect and vice president-elect, if Taylor was not president because he had not been sworn in as such, then Atchison, who had not been sworn in either, certainly was not President either.[19]
04:03:27 <elliott> Atchison was sworn in for his new term as President pro tempore minutes before both Fillmore and Taylor,[citation needed] which might theoretically make him Acting President for at least that length of time; however, this also implies that many times when the Vice President is sworn in before the President, the Vice President is the de facto Acting President. Since this is a common occurrence, if Atchison is considered President, so must every Vi
04:03:27 <elliott> ce President whose inauguration preceded that of the President if the President was sworn in after noon on Inauguration Day.
04:03:50 <elliott> pikhq: but yeah, fuck yeah William Henry Harrison
04:03:53 <catseye> "Subsequent work (through 1.8.8) was driven by Eric Raymond, who eradicated previous signs of authorship with the current copyright notice between 1.8.7 and 1.8.8, early 1995. " -- ncurses history
04:04:45 <elliott> pikhq: do you know anything about the BIOS?!?!?!
04:05:11 <pikhq> elliott: Not really.
04:05:25 <elliott> i'd bother cpressey but i've bothered him enough for one day
04:05:30 <elliott> "Doing a kernel in Basic" what a splendid idea
04:06:43 <catseye> i know only a bit about the bios
04:07:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:07:53 <elliott> catseye: ralf brown's interrupt list?
04:07:58 <elliott> i totally just loaded up the osdev page about that
04:08:08 <elliott> catseye: basically i just want docs of all the interrupts :P
04:08:23 <elliott> "Sadly, the entries for interrupt and port calls that have been "standardized" are not easy to find."
04:08:25 <elliott> catseye: doesn't look much fun
04:08:36 <elliott> catseye: i think i'll keep searching :P
04:08:37 <catseye> well, it is not *too* unfun
04:08:46 <catseye> but the formatting is... special
04:08:56 <catseye> it's the best resource i could find, at the time
04:09:44 <catseye> elliott: Thunar looks better now! Can still only cd into one directory, though >_<
04:10:05 <elliott> catseye: try restarting xfce i.e. log out and in again (don't enable "save session" in the logout screen)
04:10:34 <elliott> what's the point of local labels?
04:10:46 <elliott> catseye: you have settings now; go into Appearance and set a non-Raleigh theme :P
04:10:51 <elliott> catseye: preferably GREY MIST
04:13:09 <catseye> I don't have GREY MIST yet
04:14:38 <catseye> local labels are labels except local
04:14:47 <elliott> catseye: grey mist isn't part of xfce
04:14:50 <catseye> the point is so you can say @loop: in a bunch of places
04:14:50 <elliott> it's part of being awesome
04:15:00 <catseye> how do i install being awesome
04:15:06 <catseye> elliott: er yes, in THIS assembler
04:15:29 <elliott> catseye: how to install grey mist:
04:15:37 <elliott> $ mkdir -p "~/.themes/Grey Mist/gtk-2.0"
04:15:39 <catseye> make: don't know how to make names.c. Stop
04:15:51 <elliott> $ mkdir -p ~/.themes/Grey\ Mist/gtk-2.0
04:15:59 <elliott> $ wget http://sprunge.us/PaWY -O ~/.themes/Grey\ Mist/gtk-2.0/gtkrc
04:16:02 <catseye> i cannot build ncurses 2.7 *from source*
04:16:07 <elliott> catseye: then go into xfce appearance and select grey mist.
04:16:28 <elliott> catseye: if your interface is suddenly hideously boring but not ugly, mission accomplished
04:17:02 <elliott> catseye: before you do that, install gtk2-engines
04:17:10 <elliott> catseye: which is probably what it's called.
04:17:41 <elliott> so no biggie to install it
04:18:02 <elliott> catseye: oh so it is called that? phew :P
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04:19:08 <catseye> Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego?
04:19:29 <catseye> my mistake: not using gmake
04:20:40 <Sgeo> Did I ever tell you my story about Sandiego?
04:21:45 <Sgeo> On the day that the graduating class was .. doing something. Some trip, celebrationish iirc, end of the year, the girl I liked wasn't there
04:21:57 <Sgeo> I asked her friend, and she said that she's in San Diego
04:22:30 <Sgeo> It utterly failed to process in my mind as a real place, due to "Carmen Sandiego", and thus I thought that that was just some excuse and she was avoiding me or something
04:23:04 <Sgeo> Turns out San Diego is a real place, and I found out why she was there towards the end of the day
04:23:30 <Sgeo> Reason I think about any of that having any effect is because I never asked her friend "Why?", which would have showed some interest, I think
04:24:04 <Sgeo> You asked me to go on
04:24:08 <pikhq> God the US is crazy.
04:24:21 <pikhq> Fun fact: the US is one of two nations with legal *bounty hunting*.
04:24:55 <elliott> HowStuffWorks "How Bounty Hunting Works"
04:24:55 <elliott> Bounty hunting is an important part of the American justice system.
04:25:02 <elliott> How to Become a Bounty Hunter - wikiHow
04:25:02 <elliott> wikiHow article about How to Become a Bounty Hunter.
04:25:03 <zzo38> I know things about telephone red-boxing and I know how payphones can be corrected. Say you have three LEDs on the payphone, one red, one yellow, and one green. These lights indicate the mode. The initial mode is red mode.
04:25:43 <Gregor> *It's cheaper than a police force.
04:26:19 <zzo38> In red mode, coins inserted go into the holding area and send red-box tones, the keypad is enabled, and the microphone is disabled during red mode. Signals can be sent Y (change to yellow mode), G (change to green mode), Z (accept coins), X (reject coins), from the telephone company to the payphone.
04:26:54 <zzo38> In yellow mode, microphone is enabled, coins are automatically rejected, and the R (change to red mode) command is accepted.
04:27:17 <zzo38> In green mode, microphone is enabled, coins are automatically rejected, and no commands are recognized.
04:27:53 <zzo38> In service mode (all three LEDs lit), everything is enabled, including diagnostic functions.
04:28:07 <zzo38> There. Would this way work better?
04:28:53 <catseye> elliott: the terminfo library is fucked. you need to #include <ncurses/ncurses.h>. You can't just #include <ncurses.h>. they're dumb.
04:29:09 <elliott> zzo38: no. it really wouldn't
04:29:22 <elliott> zzo38: sounds like a pain to use, no?
04:30:13 <zzo38> elliott: How would it be a pain to use? The user needs to do nothing special. The telephone company's computer can have a simple program to do this logic.
04:30:28 <elliott> i thought you were proposing a UI change
04:33:28 <zzo38> elliott: No, no UI change. The only visible change to the payphone is the three LEDs to indicate mode, and it is possible to use the payphone like normal even without paying attention to the mode.
04:33:41 <elliott> zzo38: Why does the mode need to be displayed?
04:34:58 <catseye> of course it [doesn't] run [on] NetBSD!
04:35:00 <zzo38> elliott: Mostly for diagnostics purposes. But I suppose someone who understands them might be able to understand more things from them too.
04:36:35 <catseye> ncurses note: does not build shared libraries by defatul
04:37:05 <catseye> pikhq: What's the other nation?
04:37:43 <catseye> If it's Norway, maybe one got oerjan.
04:38:18 <pikhq> catseye: The Phillipines.
04:42:44 <elliott> wow i have no idea how to use bios interrupts
04:43:06 <zzo38> The mode lights can still be useful if you want to use them, such as to tell when you inserted the correct coins and your call is now connected, or, in case of operator assistance, to tell when it is ready to insert money. And you can't toll fraud with the red box, since the microphone is disabled in red mode.
04:44:12 <zzo38> (Note that it is disallowed to switch from yellow mode directly to green mode. This is important.)
04:44:26 <pikhq> Aaah, rock music that really *uses* dynamic contrast. Such a nice change.
04:46:40 <catseye> well, they're not hard, anyway
04:46:42 <elliott> catseye: ok explain them :P
04:47:16 <catseye> mov ax, something; mov bx, something else; int 10h
04:47:30 <elliott> catseye: i still need a list that isn't evil though :P
04:49:17 <catseye> elliott: have you seen this version: http://www.ctyme.com/intr/int-10.htm
04:49:39 <catseye> for example: http://www.ctyme.com/intr/rb-0210.htm
04:49:56 <elliott> catseye: oh that's much nicer
04:50:23 <elliott> catseye: http://www.ctyme.com/intr/int-00.htm interrupt 0 is a LICENSE
04:50:39 <catseye> autoextract script is perfect!
04:50:53 <catseye> most of the ones you want are in 10h iirc
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04:51:55 <elliott> catseye: the bios has non-10 interrupts? sheesh
04:51:57 <elliott> also that's 10 in hex right?
04:52:11 <elliott> catseye: will you kill me for writing "int 10h"?
04:52:29 <catseye> no, as i think fizzie mentioned, that is the one place where h is acceptable.
04:53:05 <catseye> even *i* instinctively type 10h and 21h after 'int', and I'm not much of an x86 person.
04:53:25 <Sgeo> What's wrong with h?
04:53:36 <catseye> it makes you wonder why there's no g
04:53:55 <elliott> catseye: we just need to copy the mathematicians and use _16
04:53:59 <elliott> that shit needs to go in front
04:54:03 <elliott> 16#foo is what smalltalk does i think
04:54:12 <catseye> yes, erlang stole it from there
04:54:30 <catseye> i could generalize it further!
04:55:14 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Imaginary bases have been seriously used.
04:55:25 <catseye> elliott: escape those damn spaces
04:55:41 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Most notably Knuth's quater-imaginary base.
04:55:42 <Sgeo> I meant, why the no?
04:55:52 <zzo38> You can use italic for octal numbers and typewriter style for hexadecimal numbers
04:56:04 <Sgeo> Imaginary bases have a serious use?
04:56:07 <pikhq> Such as not needing a sign.
04:56:17 <Sgeo> Also, I guess elliott's trying to tell me that it should be 2i#1
04:56:56 <Sgeo> 2+i is complex, at any rate. Any use for complex bases over plain old imaginary bases?
04:57:29 <elliott> cpressey: man all this head and drive and cylinders and stuff
04:57:31 <elliott> cpressey: it's so retro and i hate it
04:57:49 <pikhq> Sgeo: Pain and agony, maybe.
04:57:51 * Sgeo retconjurates elliott
04:58:04 <zzo38> You can also do all numbers extend on the left instead of the right of the radix point, you can have without the sign, because in base 2, you have ......11111111111 for negative one, and (-1$0) (where $ is interleave operator) for negative two thirds.
04:58:37 <Sgeo> base-n has an interleave operator?
04:58:56 <Sgeo> If we describe this whole thing with bases as "base-n", what's "base-n,m"?
04:59:04 <zzo38> Sgeo: O, instead of complex bases, can you now use bases with hypercomplex numbers, or meta-complex numbers, or with quantum states or whatever?
04:59:18 <elliott> catseye: is that your rebuttal to everything? :D
04:59:19 <catseye> oh you were talking to cpressey sorry
04:59:23 <zzo38> Sgeo: I mean like the INTERCAL interleave operator, but with infinite amount of bits
04:59:25 <Sgeo> Surreal bases!
04:59:43 * Sgeo does not know what a meta-complex number is
04:59:45 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, surreal bases, that is an example of what I mean, by making new bases
05:00:02 <Sgeo> And is "hypercomplex" number just a term for things such as quaternions and octonions?
05:00:18 <elliott> catseye: i am apparently unable to read asm
05:00:18 <zzo38> Yes, "hypercomplex" is for quaternions and octonions
05:00:23 <elliott> catseye: befos confounds me
05:00:54 <catseye> it's not the prettiest asm but mostly it's because it has no real plan
05:01:03 <catseye> the individual routines are ok
05:01:11 <catseye> not golfed or anything mostly
05:01:16 * Sgeo still has no idea what a meta-complex number is
05:01:31 <zzo38> While meta-complex is a idea I invented (possibly other people did too, independent of me), where a rank-3 meta-complex number has eight components: real-real-real (RRR), real-real-imaginary (RRI), RIR, RII, IRR, IRI, IIR, III.
05:01:50 <Sgeo> Argably, 2+i still fits the base-n format. n just = 2+i
05:01:52 <zzo38> Meta-complex numbers are commutative.
05:01:59 <zzo38> (regardless of rank)
05:02:04 * pikhq did not realise that anyone had actually done anything that's hypercomplex.
05:02:23 <pikhq> The construction is pretty obvious, of course. Just didn't realise anyone had actually done it.
05:02:31 <Sgeo> SL, and probably lots of other 3d stuff, uses quarternions for rotations
05:03:00 <pikhq> I was even *less* aware that it was even vaguely useful.
05:03:01 <zzo38> Matrix reprentations of meta-complex numbers can be synthesized by tensor products of matrix representations of complex numbers.
05:03:55 <elliott> pikhq: unfortunately you can't do 3plexes
05:04:28 <zzo38> Sgeo: Now do you have idea what a meta-complex number is?
05:04:59 <Sgeo> 2|4|i + 5|i|2i ?
05:05:20 <catseye> elliott: btw: guy who reformatted the interrupt list: loser
05:05:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: No, not quite like that.
05:05:57 <catseye> "As a visionary of the computer industry, I have become a minor celebrity in the world of nerds. I'm the Supreme Commander of the Nerd Liberation Movement. We're coming out of the Back Room. I'm so smart that the government wants me to register my brain as a weapon. I'm the most dangerous mind on the Internet."
05:06:14 <elliott> "John C. Dvorak (Good man!)"
05:06:24 <elliott> catseye: i topped it in five words
05:06:39 <catseye> wait what? this isn't a war of losers
05:06:41 <zzo38> If you represent a complex number (or rank-1 meta-complex number) as ordered pair, then a rank-2 meta-complex number is represent by ordered quad (four components) of reals.
05:06:44 <elliott> catseye: no, the same guy said that
05:06:47 <pikhq> catseye: Well, if he can perform decent-quality encryption in his brain somehow (implant?), then his brain would in fact be a weapon.
05:06:49 <catseye> i have no wish to promote this loser as PARTICULARLY loserful
05:06:55 <elliott> catseye: i'm saying mine demonstrates how losery he is in far fewer words
05:07:07 <elliott> because he likes Dvorak, who is a real-life troll and moron ofc
05:07:23 <elliott> catseye: ohh it's THAT guy!
05:07:26 <catseye> i have no idea who that is
05:07:46 <elliott> catseye: the guy who has a page telling teenagers to smoke weed
05:08:32 <elliott> catseye: (and also has a page telling them that smoking cigarettes is the WORST THING EVER)
05:08:36 <elliott> http://www.perkel.com/politics/issues/smoke.htm
05:08:37 <elliott> http://www.perkel.com/politics/issues/pot.htm
05:09:38 -!- elliott has left (?).
05:09:40 -!- elliott has joined.
05:09:45 <elliott> cpressey: good thing i only care about the interrupts :)
05:10:06 <elliott> cpressey: so uh... do i really have to care about sectors and cylinders and crap?
05:10:33 <zzo38> elliott: If you write a operating system on IBM PC, it is necessary to deal with sector numbers and cylinder numbers.
05:10:44 <elliott> zzo38: i mean in my bootloader
05:11:21 <catseye> \o/ I GOT PAST THE NCURSES CLUSTERFUCK
05:11:38 <elliott> catseye: in http://catseye.tc/projects/befos/src/boot/beboot.s where do you set ah to 02?
05:11:40 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, in the bootloader, you use sector numbers and cylinder numbers. I wrote a simple bootloader.
05:11:42 <Gregor> `echo Am I still slow?
05:12:08 <elliott> catseye: wait you have it in KERNEL_AX which is... inexplicably not just 02
05:12:27 <catseye> elliott: where do you see that i need to>
05:12:32 <elliott> http://www.ctyme.com/intr/rb-0607.htm
05:12:33 <elliott> DISK - READ SECTOR(S) INTO MEMORY
05:13:09 <catseye> elliott: INT13_READCODE * 256
05:13:29 <elliott> catseye: and then you add KERNEL_SIZE to it for some inexplicable reason???
05:13:37 <elliott> assigning both in one instruction
05:13:50 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/fbJU
05:13:54 <elliott> not gonna optomise it, catseye
05:13:58 <elliott> i'm dumb as fuck and so will be my code
05:14:11 <zzo38> That is a simple MBR code.
05:14:18 <catseye> as long as it fits in 400mumble bytes!
05:14:43 <zzo38> catseye: What does that mean?
05:14:48 <catseye> zzo38: i'm still planning to replace it with yours
05:15:00 <elliott> zzo38: yours is, uh, wow, what does it do?
05:15:13 <catseye> zzo38: it means you can say "mov ah, ...; mov al, ..." if you like, but "mov ax, ..." is still shorter
05:15:22 <catseye> elliott: enters unreal mode!
05:15:29 <elliott> catseye: and nothing else?
05:15:38 <catseye> well, and loads and boots something else
05:15:50 <elliott> catseye: unreal mode is irreversibly associated with this image of mr bean for me: http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/images/mr-bean.jpg
05:15:54 <zzo38> elliott: It fills the screen with "p" and loads the operating system into RAM, and then jump to the start of operating system code.
05:15:56 <elliott> catseye: and bad english written by a polish person
05:16:13 <zzo38> catseye: It is the operating system itself that enters unreal mode.
05:16:13 <elliott> catseye: because of this really young (like 11, 12) pole on the osdev forums who did an unreal mode os and that was his avatar
05:16:16 <elliott> catseye: it has... soured my impression
05:16:22 <elliott> zzo38: why fill screen with p :D
05:16:22 <catseye> zzo38: ah, i misremembered
05:16:44 <zzo38> elliott: Because of the color attribute.
05:16:47 <elliott> catseye: omg i'm gonna make my bootloader print out additional os for each time it has to retry reading
05:16:59 <zzo38> (That is the reason why it isn't a different letter)
05:18:49 <catseye> zzo38: is the code to enter unreal mode short enough that you COULD put it in the bootblock?
05:20:00 <zzo38> catseye: I believe it probably is.
05:20:33 <elliott> zzo38: now how do you output characters with bios >:)
05:20:37 <elliott> looks like http://www.ctyme.com/intr/rb-0100.htm
05:21:07 <zzo38> The MBR code I have does not use BIOS to output characters; it writes directly to video memory.
05:21:20 <zzo38> However, you can output characters with BIOS, too.
05:21:43 <elliott> zzo38: oh, i tried video memory
05:21:46 <elliott> but it didn't quite work...
05:21:47 <zzo38> (The operating system should clear the screen once it boots)
05:22:59 * elliott tries to understand your asm
05:23:12 <zzo38> elliott: Why did video memory not quite work? Ensure segment 0xB800 for text video.
05:23:25 <elliott> zzo38: it doesn't help that i suck at segments :)
05:23:41 <zzo38> (Absolute memory address 0xB8000)
05:24:06 <elliott> (note: i have never done segments before)
05:24:18 <zzo38> You need to set the segment register!
05:24:45 <zzo38> (DS for most things, but ES for destination of STOSB and similar things)
05:25:31 <elliott> apparently this isn't cosher
05:25:56 <catseye> elliott: no, you can't assign segment registers directly
05:26:03 <catseye> instead, push onto stack, then pop ds
05:26:04 <zzo38> There is no MOV DS,immediate command, too bad!
05:26:14 <elliott> zzo38: 8086 makes no sense, agreed?
05:27:07 <elliott> oh it does boring things when i fix it
05:27:12 <pikhq> elliott: Setting the code segment is even weirder.
05:27:21 <pikhq> elliott: You do a long jump.
05:28:15 <elliott> pikhq: grumble why don't bioses start OSes with a blank screen
05:28:40 <pikhq> Your computer does it tons of times per second.
05:28:41 <elliott> zzo38: wait, does yours fill the screen without jumping?
05:29:02 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, it uses REPZ and STOSB command to fill.
05:29:13 <zzo38> It fills screen with black "p" on gray background.
05:29:23 <zzo38> So that you can see it is loading.
05:29:33 <zzo38> And then operating system should clear it, to tell you it has been loaded.
05:30:47 <elliott> zzo38: is this code public domain, or?
05:30:56 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, it is public domain.
05:31:13 <elliott> it's helped me learn. sort of :P :)
05:32:08 <elliott> how come this isn't the same as
05:32:59 <zzo38> You can also see the strange way it loads the operating system, it does that so that it can load even if the operating system code overwrites the MBR code.
05:33:20 <elliott> cpressey: you know what, outputting is overrated
05:34:35 <zzo38> When the MBR code is loaded, the DX register already contains the current drive number.
05:35:13 <elliott> catseye: why does the befos kernel start at sector 4, not 2? whyyyy
05:35:28 <catseye> elliott: i wanted padding for... something
05:35:47 <catseye> i was predicting the boot code would grow?
05:35:48 <elliott> zzo38: i don't need to "mov dl, 0" then :)
05:36:03 <elliott> catseye: well the boot sector can't, can it? it's one sector by definition
05:36:10 <elliott> catseye: and all other booting code can be done in the "OS"
05:36:16 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, it does. You don't need to adjust the DL register.
05:37:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:38:15 <elliott> catseye: why doesn't nogood set cx?
05:38:42 <zzo38> What I have in the operating system is a Forth word DISK which points to a variable in memory storing the current drive number. When the system loads it copy DL to DISK and then it copy DISK to DL when doing BIOS call to read the files on the disk.
05:39:35 <zzo38> So instead of typing A: like you do in DOS, you would type 0 DISK ! for the similar function.
05:41:31 <catseye> elliott: I guess it will be written KERNEL_SEC + (KERNEL_CYL * 256) times
05:42:06 <elliott> my optimazition totally no worketh
05:42:42 <catseye> my LIBRARY_PATH cheatingness seems to have gotten ghc to make further progress
05:45:04 <catseye> i wonder what would happen if i *did* switch to unreal mode in the MBR, then booted DOS with that
05:45:51 <elliott> hey i never use al anywhere
05:45:56 <elliott> great place to put my cursor pointer!
05:47:24 <elliott> cpressey: psht what's this i can't do mov [al]?
05:47:30 <elliott> cpressey: x86 is so unorthogonal
05:49:36 <elliott> it now fills the screen with "booooooooooooooO"
05:49:57 <elliott> catseye: you can measure how long your floppy takes to get ready by the number of os!
05:50:03 <catseye> I'm-a gonna set C_INCLUDE_PATH too
05:50:21 <elliott> boooooot = most OSes have already given up at this point
05:51:56 <pikhq> catseye: I suspect that unreal mode DOS would *barely* work.
05:52:03 <catseye> most people have already given up building ghc 6.12 on netbsd on this point
05:52:27 <pikhq> catseye: You could just build it for i686-pc-linux-gnu on NetBSD.
05:52:43 <catseye> pikhq: I could just run Ubuntu, too.
05:52:45 <pikhq> And by build I mean download.
05:53:30 <elliott> catseye: http://sprunge.us/DPId my AWESOME incomplete bootsector
05:53:36 <elliott> pikhq: it's even better than the makefile!
05:54:11 <elliott> a successful boot should result in something like booot! :)
05:55:37 <elliott> cpressey: is it bad to be enjoying this?
05:56:58 <elliott> hmm it's at cylinder 0 it seems
05:58:23 <catseye> elliott: while ghc builds i'm going to try putting netbsd on this usb stick
05:58:53 <elliott> does this mean BX as interpreted within the segment pointed to by ES is where the data goes?
06:01:16 <elliott> catseye: hmm, why is befos loaded into segment 0x50?
06:01:27 <elliott> are a certain number of segments not wise to touch?
06:01:38 <catseye> think of ES as the "high word" and BX as the "low word" except there is actually some overlap (don't worry about that)
06:01:54 <catseye> elliott: there was a doc i read once that suggested it
06:02:00 <catseye> i will never find it again
06:02:23 <elliott> what's the lowest segment that should work barring x86 being crazy? has to be after wherever 0x7C00 is presumably since that's where the bootloader is
06:02:26 <catseye> let me... let me think what it was called. someone might have archived it on the internets
06:05:44 <elliott> catseye: hmm, what would the org be for something loaded in sector 0x50 or whatever?
06:06:22 <catseye> elliott: don't know off the top of my head
06:08:43 <catseye> elliott: I found it! http://pastie.org/private/gvavjfgtp0mbpntidfimta
06:09:05 <elliott> you linked that thing's docs yesterday, didn't you? :)
06:09:28 <elliott> file (.COM or otherwise) which is booted from a disk MUST NOT contain
06:09:28 <elliott> any DOS calls (INT 21 etc.) since DOS is not loaded, and any calls to
06:09:28 <elliott> it will crash the system."
06:10:12 <elliott> catseye: i don't see 0x50 there :)
06:10:34 <elliott> which has bios shit in it, and so sounds less-than-optimal...
06:12:15 <catseye> Booted programs requiring less than 30464 bytes of memory can be loaded
06:12:15 <catseye> at the default segment $0050, below the BOOT loader code. Larger programs
06:12:15 <catseye> should be loaded at segment $0800, above the boot loader.
06:12:25 <catseye> (that was NOT 5 lines, irssi)
06:12:26 <elliott> "movl $42, %fs:(%eax) ; Equivalent to M[fs:eax]<-42) in RTL"
06:12:47 <elliott> catseye: it was 5 lines, just most of them were blank and the ircd discarded them :)
06:12:57 <elliott> well "most", still less than half :p
06:13:13 <elliott> catseye: 0x800 sounds good then
06:13:46 <zzo38> elliott: But your program http://sprunge.us/DPId mess up the DL register!!?
06:14:33 <elliott> also it is hardly a program yet, i haven't put in disk reading :)
06:14:59 <zzo38> You need the DL register to boot from the drive. Perhaps push it to the stack if you need it for something else at first.
06:15:47 <elliott> oh yes, dl is drive number!
06:16:06 <elliott> zzo38: I will just use a different register.
06:17:12 <elliott> zzo38: hmm, will DL always be 0?
06:17:16 <elliott> or does the bios set it automatically?
06:17:40 <zzo38> The BIOS sets it automatically, I think. DL will be zero if you are booting from the first floppy drive.
06:18:26 <elliott> zzo38: Thank you for pointing that out.
06:19:00 <catseye> elliott: usb stick is being newfs'ed
06:19:24 <elliott> catseye: this is the most fun programming something i've had in ages
06:19:30 <elliott> i'm totally learning here!
06:19:44 <elliott> this is my first asm program that i didn't just copy-and-paste... even if i did take a lot of cues from your bootloader :P
06:21:10 <elliott> catseye: now i have to decide how many sectors my kernel takes up, sheesh!
06:21:31 <elliott> catseye: hmm, one sector = 512 bytes?
06:21:50 <elliott> catseye: should i just set it to the rest of the floppy to start with?
06:22:36 <zzo38> elliott: You can do how I did it, if you want to
06:22:42 <catseye> I just picked 8K on the basis that I would probably not make anything that big to start
06:22:55 <elliott> zzo38: sorry, I couldn't understand your program, not a good enough asm programmer :) how does yours do it?
06:23:06 <elliott> catseye: yeah but i'm probably going to be using C here (although... i like this asm malarkey a lot)
06:23:09 <elliott> catseye: and, well, you know gcc.
06:24:01 <elliott> catseye: long term plan is to not have this on a floppy anyway, and then, well, it's just loading a 1.44 megs minus 512 bytes kernel off a way larger medium :p
06:24:08 <elliott> catseye: even though, uh, i have no partition table, so it'd probably be a CD
06:24:18 <zzo38> Mine loads the maximum number of sectors, starting at the address in RAM which is designated for the operating system.
06:24:57 <zzo38> That is how it loads the kernel.
06:25:44 <catseye> options COMPAT_FREEBSD # binary compatibility with FreeBSD
06:26:23 <elliott> catseye: here, have the cat -v version of my bootsector
06:26:25 <elliott> RM-4^GM-:P^YM-M^PZM-4^BM-M^Ph^@M-8^_fM-G^F^@^@b^Go^GM-;^D^@M-G^Go^GCCM-4^@M-M^Sh^@^H^G1M-[M-0>M-1^B0M-vM-M^SrM-ffM-G^Gt^G!^G^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@
06:26:25 <elliott> ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@
06:26:26 <elliott> ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@UM-*
06:27:40 <elliott> cpressey: oh woot, my celebration code doesn't work
06:27:44 <elliott> cpressey: how cool is that
06:28:08 <catseye> what does uouospdfo your celebration code do?
06:28:52 <catseye> local lag becuz i am building a USB_STICK kernel
06:29:03 <elliott> 0000000 b452 ba07 1950 10cd b45a cd02 6810 b800
06:29:03 <elliott> 0000010 661f 06c7 0000 0762 076f 04bb c700 6f07
06:29:03 <elliott> 0000020 4307 b443 cd00 6813 0800 3107 b0db b13e
06:29:03 <elliott> 0000030 3002 cdf6 7213 e9e6 fffd 0000 0000 0000
06:29:05 <elliott> 0000040 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
06:29:09 <elliott> 00001f0 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 aa55
06:29:15 <elliott> catseye: mov dword [bx], 0x07210774
06:29:25 <catseye> and yes, assembly coding is a blast
06:29:27 <elliott> catseye: would modifying es fuck up the segments?
06:29:34 <elliott> maybe not, it still changes the screen
06:29:42 <catseye> i don't think you've touched es yet?
06:29:56 <elliott> it's on to the celebration bit post-load
06:30:12 <elliott> catseye: you know the awesome thing? i can't think how i'd use up 510 bytes.
06:30:19 <catseye> yes but what is that mov dword supposed to do? put two chars on screen?
06:30:34 * elliott makes it two words to test
06:31:02 <elliott> catseye: the result is "t!o"
06:31:04 <elliott> which makes little sense really
06:31:20 <elliott> catseye: got a better register to stuff this into than dx? :P
06:31:28 <elliott> x86 is so register-starved it's not even funny
06:31:32 <elliott> I see why people use x86-64
06:34:06 <elliott> catseye: jumping to KERNEL_SEGMENT:0 does wonderful things
06:34:13 <elliott> catseye: the t morphs into tons of characters every second
06:34:22 <elliott> catseye: presumably the null byte does really fun stuff as x86
06:34:45 <elliott> catseye: add [bx+si],al apparently
06:34:53 <elliott> can't think why that would do anything to vga but still
06:35:12 <elliott> catseye: when i do the long jump it's the jumped-to code's responsibility to set up segment registers and whatnot right?
06:35:53 <elliott> hmm wait so bx is ... 6 there, si is presumably 0(?)
06:35:56 <elliott> catseye: oh man that's great
06:36:08 <elliott> catseye: bx is the pointer to the t, since i don't bother incrementing dx after celebrating (why bother?)
06:36:13 <elliott> catseye: we're in vga text ram
06:36:23 <elliott> catseye: and al is KERNEL_SECTORS = 62
06:36:33 <elliott> catseye: so basically after the jump, the NULLs add 62 to the t every cycle
06:36:59 <elliott> catseye: aaaand before today i wouldn't have been able to figure that out
06:37:30 <elliott> catseye: at the start of the program i switch segment to 0xB800 i.e. text display
06:37:38 <elliott> catseye: and i use bx for the offset
06:37:46 <elliott> catseye: so it starts off as 4 because i've put "bo" in there
06:37:58 <catseye> < elliott> can't think why that would do anything to vga but still <-- ds still points to the screen right?
06:37:59 <elliott> catseye: then it gets "o" and gets incremented twice -- because ofc the property/attribute thing matters
06:38:11 <elliott> catseye: yes, i figured it out
06:38:29 <elliott> i put the celebratory "t!" in, no point incrementing bx
06:38:32 <elliott> so it still points at the t
06:38:40 <elliott> then add [bx+si],al == add [bx], al
06:38:51 <elliott> al is a leftover from the floppy read, it's the number of kernel sectors
06:39:03 <elliott> and bx points to the t characters
06:39:07 <elliott> thus, flickery character fun
06:39:35 <elliott> catseye: now i make things more fun
06:39:44 <elliott> catseye: why fill the floppy with zeroes when you can fill it with /dev/urandom?
06:40:07 <elliott> catseye: it... inexplicably does the same thing
06:40:29 <elliott> catseye: that means there's something wrong with where I'm jumping to, doesn't it.
06:42:41 <catseye> fill it with 55's or something
06:43:12 <elliott> nah it's doing exactly what 0 did all the time, so, my read is going wrong
06:43:27 <catseye> do you check the error code?
06:44:01 <elliott> catseye: http://sprunge.us/LITK
06:47:34 <catseye> it will try indefinitely it seems like
06:47:37 <elliott> and then the t goes all whoaaaaa
06:47:43 <elliott> catseye: so the read is succeeding
06:47:46 <elliott> it's just not going where i want somehow!
06:48:34 <elliott> catseye: note how I never set ah to 0x02
06:48:46 <elliott> catseye: it's been succeeding... at resetting the disk, with a bunch of non-options
06:48:56 <elliott> catseye: btw, do you think "mov ah, fooh" is also acceptable?
06:49:07 <elliott> but i need confirmation, you see
06:49:20 <catseye> i... what was the story with $ again
06:49:35 <elliott> catseye: it... is unreliable
06:49:39 <catseye> 0x is really no better than 00h, i've decided
06:49:50 <elliott> catseye: db $55,$AA doesn't work
06:49:55 <elliott> catseye: sometimes lowercase doesn't work
06:50:17 <elliott> catseye: yay, it now boots properly
06:50:27 <elliott> and trying "make test" a lot proves that different, boring stuff happens each time
06:50:44 <elliott> [blue on yellow "b"][teal on grey "o"]ot!
06:51:06 <elliott> qemu: fatal: Trying to execute code outside RAM or ROM at 0x27b92952
06:51:33 <elliott> catseye: wish i could set "unreliable floppy" in qemu :)
06:52:20 <catseye> oh different boring stuff ok
06:52:33 <elliott> catseye: well it's vaguely fun actually
06:52:38 <elliott> catseye: i can tar it up if you want to experience THE FUN
06:53:00 <catseye> i'm good! also i can build from your source
06:53:11 <catseye> oh but your awesome makefile
06:53:22 <elliott> catseye: two makefiles actuall
06:53:28 <elliott> catseye: and i de-awesomed them
06:53:35 <elliott> it's just recursive make now
06:55:01 <elliott> catseye: you are SO missing out
06:55:15 <elliott> this one displays semi-complex behaviour
06:56:17 <elliott> cpressey: http://filebin.ca/jdpamz/floppy.img
06:56:20 <elliott> cpressey: try this (qemu -fda)
06:56:29 <elliott> cpressey: WOW! it's semi-random
06:56:35 <elliott> cpressey: changes on each boot
06:56:47 <elliott> it *did* morph the b the first time
06:58:32 <elliott> "Sub: We don't put lettuce or tomatoes on a BLT unless specifically asked to sir, it's company policy not to unless it's requested by the customer."
06:58:59 <elliott> catseye: MY BOOT SECTOR IS SHORTER THAN YOUR BOOT SECTOR (it isn't actually, but it has diagnostics!)
06:59:44 <evincar> Hey whoa, I just left myself logged in and now I stumble upon boot sector golf?
07:00:28 <elliott> evincar: technically, no, just me writing a boot sector
07:00:34 <elliott> evincar: HERE 'TIS: http://sprunge.us/WMIV
07:00:38 <evincar> elliott: I almost don't want to know how we got to this point. *refrains from reading log*
07:00:45 <elliott> evincar: i decided to write a boot sector
07:01:09 <elliott> mine has diagnostic output and his doesn't, also it tries forever and his doesn't
07:01:18 <elliott> evincar: if your floppy drive is really REALLY incomprehensibly slow you could get
07:01:35 <elliott> it's boo(o for each time it retries)t!
07:01:48 <elliott> evincar: it's a long jump off a short pier
07:02:09 <evincar> elliott: Truer words were never spoken of bootloaders.
07:02:28 <elliott> evincar: but hey, it *is* miniscule!
07:03:15 <elliott> evincar: 151 bytes, it seems (plus a ton of zeroes, plus the two byte bootable signature)
07:05:23 <catseye> elliott: downloaded your img file
07:05:52 <elliott> stuff happening constantly and then another thing happening every N
07:05:58 <elliott> not the kind of thing you expect from /dev/urandom
07:06:30 <catseye> damn i don't have qemu yet. only bochs, and that will be a pain
07:06:57 <catseye> ok, so, building ghc, installing netbsd to a usb stick AND building bochs
07:07:55 <elliott> catseye: bochs should work
07:07:58 <elliott> catseye: you have a command for it in befos
07:09:57 <elliott> catseye: it doesn't do the fun stuff though
07:10:04 <elliott> catseye: that was with my working image
07:10:12 <elliott> catseye: holy shit bochs is slow :)
07:10:16 <elliott> 00017311310i[CPU0 ] BOUND_GdMa: fails bounds test
07:10:23 <elliott> it's outputting one of them every cycle even when the bootloader is running
07:10:27 <Gregor> /sbin/shutdown: You must be in the / directory to run /sbin/shutdown.
07:10:41 <catseye> >>PANIC<< dlopen failed for module 'x': Shared object "libSM.so.6" not found
07:10:41 <elliott> Gregor: I guess 'cause . could get unmounted.
07:10:46 <catseye> hate you bochs you suck now
07:11:07 <Gregor> elliott: Yes ... and shutdown could just chdir() before doing that ...
07:11:35 <elliott> Gregor: Your mom could just chdir :P
07:12:09 <evincar> elliott: Now now, let's be civil.
07:12:16 <elliott> evincar: Your FACE is uncivil.
07:12:23 <elliott> catseye: oh it's just what happens when you spew crap at bochs heh
07:12:28 <elliott> catseye: just use qemu, it does the fun stuff.
07:12:34 <catseye> elliott: I got it to boot! oo coloury t
07:12:49 <elliott> catseye: it's awesome in qemu because it goes all nice and flickery!
07:13:03 <catseye> LD_LIBRARY_PATH="/usr/pkg/share/x11-links/lib/:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH" bochs -q 'boot:a' 'floppya: 1_44=floppy.img, status=inserted' ftw
07:13:38 <elliott> catseye: in bochs it just sits there spewing debug
07:13:40 <evincar> Bah, I just got out of an hour-long conversation, largely in French, with a guy I barely knew from high school, and of all things he ended up hitting on me. :P
07:13:42 <catseye> i have a feeling i'm going to be all about the environment variables being all slutty, here in NetBSD land...
07:14:10 <elliott> evincar: thats cuz french is gay duh
07:14:35 <evincar> elliott: No, French is "anything that moves".
07:14:44 <elliott> evincar: and most things that don't
07:14:57 <elliott> i imagine the language goes on strike and suddenly you can't write books any more
07:15:11 <elliott> also: white flag, how many stereotypes have i got left now?
07:15:55 <elliott> catseye: yeah $ is not worky
07:16:00 <elliott> catseye: dw $foo always says symbol foo is undefined
07:16:33 <evincar> Why is it that a young bisexual man assumes that every other young bisexual man he meets logically wants to exchange nude pictures online? Am I the only 19-year-old who doesn't want to sleep with every person at every chance I get?
07:16:51 <evincar> This is totally off-topic, sorry.
07:17:18 <evincar> (Note: Still darn, because there seem to be few to none around me.)
07:17:37 <elliott> evincar: But there is the stereotype of bisexual = sluttiness...
07:17:47 <elliott> And probably more than a few people claim to be bisexual just because, well, anything that moves.
07:19:28 <evincar> I know, which really gets on my nerves. Just because *they* have an overactive sex drive doesn't mean *I* ought to be considered a slut for simply associating with them.
07:19:43 <evincar> RIGHTEOUS IDNIGNATION okay I'm done.
07:19:59 <elliott> blah blah blah nobody gives a shit :p
07:20:02 <evincar> I was so righteously indignant that I couldn't even type properly.
07:20:36 <evincar> I also inadvertently came out to an esoteric programming language IRC channel, but I don't exactly give a damn.
07:21:05 <catseye> why do people keep thinking there is a topic here?
07:21:40 <evincar> I wouldn't say there's a topic per se, but there is presumably a shared interest lurking somewhere.
07:21:42 <elliott> evincar: lol @ this idea of "coming out"
07:21:49 <Gregor> <evincar> Why is it that a young bisexual man assumes that every other young bisexual man he meets logically wants to exchange nude pictures online? Am I the only 19-year-old who doesn't want to sleep with every person at every chance I get? <-- because you're talking to the entirely wrong young bisexual men :P
07:21:58 <elliott> because *everywhere* is backwards enough to think that people are straight by default!
07:22:15 <elliott> and everywhere makes a big deal about not being straight ESPECIALLY ON THE INTERNET WHERE WE ARE ALL WHOLESOME HETEROSEXUALS
07:22:23 <elliott> sidenot: Wholesome Heterosexuals -- band name.
07:23:13 <evincar> elliott: Yeah, I'm "out" in the sense that if it comes up, I'll be honest, and if I find a male attractive, I'll ask him if he's interested in menfolk. It tends to really take people by surprise.
07:23:16 -!- aloril has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:23:30 <elliott> evincar: WELCOME TO AMERICA
07:24:21 <evincar> Gregor: You try finding the entirely right *anybody* if you're dealing with a group that's negatively stereotyped and almost deserves it.
07:24:45 <evincar> elliott: Screw it, I'm moving to Canada in a couple of years anyway.
07:24:57 <elliott> Sidenote: If you're seeking out specifically *bisexual* men, rather than bisexual or gay men, aren't you bisexualsexual, not bisexual?
07:25:55 <Gregor> Also, if you're only seeking out bisexual *men*, you're homobisexualsexual.
07:26:17 -!- elliott has changed nick to keanu.
07:26:22 -!- keanu has changed nick to elliott.
07:27:04 <elliott> Gregor: I think we need parentheses.
07:27:46 <evincar> I would really resent requiring a *tuple* to describe my sexual orientation.
07:27:46 <Gregor> elliott: Now find the word for a man who is attracted only to heterosexual, homophobic men.
07:28:03 <Gregor> evincar: That's because describing sexual orientation is ridiculous.
07:28:33 <elliott> let's just agree to stop talking, nothing can possibly top that
07:28:44 <evincar> I'm working on a language.
07:28:54 -!- aloril has joined.
07:28:55 <evincar> It might get done this weekend.
07:29:10 <elliott> evincar: WELL I'M WORKING ON AN OS AND IT HAS BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS
07:29:51 <elliott> evincar: It even has a fuckin' BOOTLOADER.
07:30:13 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: This isn't so bad, huh? Makin' bucks, gettin' exercise, workin' outside.
07:30:13 <elliott> Peter Gibbons: [nods] Fuckin' A.
07:30:13 <evincar> I'm sorry, it just sorta slipped out.
07:31:20 <evincar> Unfortunately this idea is sort of messing with my head...
07:32:28 <evincar> ...a totally naive and terrible way of describing it would be to say "everything is a type".
07:32:38 <elliott> evincar: oh, Oleg: The Language
07:32:49 <elliott> evincar: and if you don't know who oleg is: http://okmij.org/ftp/
07:33:00 <elliott> he is possibly the smartest computer scientist alive today.
07:33:05 <elliott> if not that, the most diverse, by far.
07:33:11 <elliott> evincar: and he does everything. in the type system
07:33:27 <elliott> he could write my operating system in the type system.
07:34:26 <evincar> "Object-Oriented programming is a harmful methodology"
07:34:28 <elliott> everyone's gay for oleg. even republicans
07:34:50 <elliott> evincar: he says such controversial things but then smooth-talks you into agreeing with it. also: he has tons of OOP-related stuff on there anyway :P
07:34:57 <elliott> mostly implementations of OOP in [unlikely place]
07:35:14 <elliott> evincar: it's probably better using the categories rather than the what's-new
07:35:44 <evincar> elliott: So I see. But luckily I seem to already share in his controversial thinking.
07:35:48 <zzo38> Object-oriented is not good for everything. Some people think it is. But actually it is good only for a few things.
07:35:59 <elliott> yeah i've never been too enamoured with oop.
07:36:42 <elliott> evincar: "object-oriented design is the roman numerals of computing." --Rob Pike
07:37:41 <evincar> zzo38: Right, as with anything. I'm not saying OOP is a bad concept, but it's definitely a bad philosophy.
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07:38:47 <zzo38> evincar: Yes, I believe you.
07:41:35 <zzo38> Many people disagree about many things in programming. I have some opinions also different than others.
07:42:35 <evincar> zzo38: Disagreement is necessary to keep the field lively.
07:43:24 <zzo38> I find bitwise operations useful; I find preprepreprocessor useful; I have written various things; I have used many programming languages (including Forth).
07:44:22 <catseye> GHCi, version 6.12.3: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/ :? for help
07:44:36 <evincar> (So, am I talking to a bot, or not?)
07:44:42 <zzo38> For example, I have written this, see what you can understand of it: *p++=((charset[b*14+a]>>x)<<7)|c; You probably cannot understand due to lack of context.
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07:45:15 <evincar> Nothing has meaning without context.
07:45:35 <zzo38> These days I write programs in Enhanced CWEB, mostly.
07:46:19 <elliott> <catseye> GHCi, version 6.12.3: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/ :? for help
07:46:24 <elliott> catseye: now haskell platform!
07:46:44 <elliott> catseye: then, uh, if you have no cabal(1), fetch cabal-install from the interwebs
07:46:58 <elliott> catseye: then after the first "cabal update" or whatever it is edit the config file and enable haddock or documentation or whatever the flag is called
07:47:07 <elliott> then "cabal install foo" as non-root *should* work fine and install docs too
07:47:11 <elliott> catseye: haskell platform is easy
07:47:14 <elliott> just configure gmake gmake install
07:48:00 <evincar> I love how "configure make make install" is the "next next finish" of the *nix world.
07:48:26 <elliott> evincar: *gmake, catseye is on NETBSD!
07:48:40 <zzo38> evincar: What if I told you what the variables meant: 'p' is a pointer into video memory. 'b' is a character number. 'a' is a row number. 'x' is a loop counter (actually a unrolled loop). 'c' is a color code.
07:48:57 <evincar> elliott: I said "make" deliberately to provoke a reaction. And it worked. :)
07:49:30 <elliott> <evincar> (So, am I talking to a bot, or not?)
07:49:45 <evincar> elliott: Have since realised.
07:49:47 <catseye> elliott: it is pretty much done, i would need to reboot to test it obviously
07:49:55 <elliott> catseye: i totally want it tomorrow
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07:50:29 <zzo38> evincar: Can you understand the code now, that I told you what each variable means?
07:50:57 <evincar> zzo38: You're setting a pixel in video memory, given a character and font data?
07:51:44 <zzo38> evincar: Yes, I am doing that. But can you see how the colors work?
07:53:54 <evincar> zzo38: It looks like you're killing the last few bits of the character data by shifting them away then shifting zeros in their place, and replacing them with the colour code.
07:54:02 <evincar> It's sort of hard to tell.
07:56:15 <zzo38> Notes: This is a paletted video mode, with 256 colors. The 'c' is a PC text video color code (for example, 0x07 is gray on black). b=e[y*80+x].character; c=e[y*80+x].color&video_mem.flash_state; The 'video_mem.flash_state' can have two possible values. Can you guess what they are?
07:58:59 <zzo38> (The flash_state can easily be switched between those two values by a bitwise XOR operation.)
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08:01:11 <evincar> Flashing if the hight bit is set, I'd guess.
08:01:12 <zzo38> And note that the color code is eight bits long! (Like the DOS screen, bit0-bit3 is foreground, bit4-bit6 is background, and bit7 indicates blinking)
08:01:36 <zzo38> evincar: Yes, it flashes if the high bit is set, the same as the PC text video.
08:02:11 <zzo38> Hopefully you can now figure out how the palette is initialized and what the values of 'flash_state' are, from this information.
08:03:19 <evincar> Ugh, I can't spend the effort to think about this right now. I ought to be in bed. :P
08:03:19 <zzo38> (Hint: The palette has many duplicate colors)
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08:07:54 <zzo38> I have read up to chapter 27 in TeX: The Program, and I have already found many things which could be improved. Some of it is probably due to the limitations of Pascal, although there are other things, too.
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09:14:30 <Phantom_Hoover> http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=28%3Asuperdickery&id=66%3Alana-and-lois-owned&Itemid=54 I loled.
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12:45:44 * Phantom_Hoover attempts to upgrade Ubuntu by reinstalling from the ISO.
12:46:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why not upgrade the normal way
12:46:49 <Vorpal> from inside the update manager thingy
12:47:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, because that takes about 7 years on my connection.
12:47:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and the ISO didn't take about 7 years to download?
12:47:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, besides not all packages will exist on the ISO probably
12:47:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Something which seems so utterly insane one of us could have thought of it.
12:48:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, details? All google gives me is opera related stuff
12:48:24 <Phantom_Hoover> As far as I can tell, it takes a list of mirrors and downloads from all of them simultaneously.
12:48:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, then the limit is not your connection, but the mirrors you use
12:49:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, tried mirrors.kernel.org for your ubuntu package mirror?
12:49:32 <Vorpal> it is generally quite fast
12:50:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose the fact that I waited 20 days since it was updated could help...
12:51:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the last 2 dist upgrades I did were on the day the new version was released.
12:52:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, yeah that could explain stuff
12:52:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, mirrors.kernel.org manages to max out my connection easily.
12:54:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, wait, so it's a mirror of Canonical's APT repositories?
12:54:37 <Phantom_Hoover> My download server is set to "Server for United Kingdom" at the moment.
12:55:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, mirrors.kernel.org mirrors lots of stuff. Kernels, arch packages, ubuntu packages, and quite a few other distros
12:55:47 <Vorpal> using it in /etc/apt/sources.list
12:55:54 <Vorpal> at least that is what I always did
12:57:14 <Vorpal> example line: deb http://mirrors.se.eu.kernel.org/ubuntu/ lucid-security main universe
12:57:25 <Vorpal> you likely want to change the se bit
12:58:10 <Vorpal> well, Sweden should be fast for you too
12:58:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway mirrors.kernel.org is geodns
12:59:04 <Vorpal> so just using that should work fine
13:00:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So just put "deb http://mirrors.kernel.org/ubuntu/ lucid-security main universe" into my sources.list?
13:12:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well look in sources.list, see how it lists a number of different lines
13:12:28 <Vorpal> deb http://mirrors.kernel.org/ubuntu/ <various stuff>
13:12:38 <Vorpal> well the URL will be different for you currently
13:13:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but what you need to do is replace the existing mirror on all lines with the new one. I couldn't copy all lines, would be a bit too long
13:13:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you have any lines referring to ddebs.ubuntu.com: leave those alone
13:13:45 <Vorpal> leave any PPAs (ppa.launchpad.net) URLs alone too
13:15:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, wait, can't I just use Software Sources for that>
13:16:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, uh perhaps. I'm not used to the GUI ways
13:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently, the fastest mirror from my computer is in France.
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16:37:34 <elliott> 04:48:24 <Phantom_Hoover> As fa04:48:24 <Phantom_Hoover> As far as I can tell, it takes a list of mirrors and downloads from all of them simultaneously.
16:37:34 <elliott> r as I can tell, it takes a list of mirrors and downloads from all of them simultaneously.
16:37:40 <elliott> you can configure it this insane way, but, no
16:37:57 <elliott> 05:00:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So just put "deb http://mirrors.kernel.org/ubuntu/ lucid-security main universe" into my sources.list?
16:38:00 <elliott> or just use the gui configuration
16:38:35 <elliott> fastest mirror detection is unreliable, use the swedish one :)
16:41:32 <zzo38> Assuming \def\msg#1{\immediate\write16{#1}} guess what output will be produced from these commands:
16:42:20 <zzo38> \msg{\expandafter\meaning\noexpand\message} \msg{\expandafter\meaning\noexpand\noexpand} \def\qq{123} \msg{\expandafter\meaning\noexpand\qq} % section 358
16:43:15 <zzo38> First guess without trying it, and then read section 358 and 210 of TeX: The Program and then try to guess again. And then run these commands in TeX to see the actual response.
16:44:06 <elliott> http://www.cliki.net/Clon THREE CLON PACKAGES
16:44:16 <elliott> zzo38: No idea, and I don't have that book.
16:45:17 <zzo38> If you don't have that book, you can read it on-screen by weaving the tex.web file (althoug you won't get many of the improvements in page formatting that the book has)
16:46:19 <zzo38> OK, if you have no idea here is another thiing you can try: Run these commands in TeX, and then see if you understand why you get the answers you do.
16:50:06 <zzo38> Can you guess this one: \setbox0=\vbox{\hrule width 42pt width 15pt} \msg{\the\wd0}
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16:51:05 <zzo38> This one: \catcode`8=11 \catcode`B=12 \count0=567890 \count1="4819 \count2="0B \count3="0b \msg{\the\count0} \msg{\the\count1} \msg{\the\count2} \msg{\the\count3}
16:51:58 <zzo38> This one: \catcode`P=1 \dimen0=42PT \msg{\the\dimen0}
16:53:46 <zzo38> Are you good at TeX? Or are you really bad at it?
16:55:29 <elliott> Where is the tex.web file?
16:55:49 <zzo38> elliott: You should find a copy anywhere you can find TeX distributions.
16:57:13 <elliott> zzo38: Can I not weave it, TeX it, and then view the resulting file?
16:58:11 <zzo38> elliott: No, I wouldn't expect that to work.
16:58:18 <elliott> zzo38: Is that not how the book was produced?
16:59:41 <zzo38> The book is produced by weaving (the WEAVE program converts the WEB format to TeX format), and then converted to DVI by TeX. (There are likely other changes too; the book has footnotes that the on-screen view doesn't have.)
17:00:01 <elliott> zzo38: Then I could do that myself to get the book, minus the footnotes; are the footnotes important?
17:00:14 <elliott> <elliott> zzo38: Can I not weave it, TeX it, and then view the resulting file?
17:00:23 <elliott> Weave the tex.web file, run TeX on it, and view the result.
17:00:41 <zzo38> Yes you can weave it and TeX it and view the result with a DVI viewer, or print it.
17:00:57 <zzo38> The footnotes are not that important, it is just a kind of short index.
17:01:27 <elliott> zzo38: But you said you didn't expect that to work.
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17:02:10 <zzo38> No. I said I didn't expect it to work if you did it incorrectly. If you do it correctly, it should work.
17:02:39 <elliott> What was incorrect about what I was planning to do? I'll make sure not to do it :)
17:03:24 <zzo38> There are many things that you can do wrong; just do WEAVE and TeX and then DVI and hopefully it should work, as long as you have the correct macro packages for WEB programs.
17:04:24 <zzo38> (I believe most TeX distributions include the macro packages you need)
17:04:27 <elliott> zzo38: Do you know where I can obtain WEB? I have searched for it but I can only find CWEB.
17:04:43 <zzo38> If you have TeX, it probably includes WEB.
17:05:07 <zzo38> (Try to run the "tangle" and/or "weave" program)
17:05:19 <elliott> I appear not to have TeX on this machine! I will install the Debian texlive package.
17:05:33 <elliott> Hopefully that has WEB; if not, it'll be one of the subpackages, I guess.
17:10:08 <zzo38> (I would suggest using Enhanced CWEB for new programs, though. The Pascal WEB program is still useful for TeX and those old programs, though.)
17:10:48 * Sgeo WTFs at NuCaptcha
17:10:57 <Sgeo> I'd imagine having it be a video would be WORSE
17:11:19 <Sgeo> Since a spambot might be able to determine which shapes are letters and which aren't
17:11:28 <zzo38> What is NuCaptcha?
17:11:44 <Sgeo> Advertising in captchas
17:11:54 * Sgeo is looking at http://www.nucaptcha.com/products/basic
17:12:39 <elliott> Sgeo: they seem to animate the random stuff behind it too
17:12:43 <elliott> and also elements in the "scene"
17:12:49 <elliott> which probably confuses a lot of stuff
17:12:58 <elliott> still, i could imagine detecting the outlines and using the extra frames to get a better estimate
17:14:00 <Sgeo> I found one that doesn't animate the background...
17:14:06 <Sgeo> http://www.nucaptcha.com/products/engage/6
17:14:36 <zzo38> I still prefer plain text CAPTCHA programs
17:14:53 <elliott> Insert the following: Abcd
17:15:32 <zzo38> They could be a bit more complex than that, depending on usage.
17:15:41 <zzo38> You could also just have fields which say "please leave blank", or whatever.
17:16:13 <zzo38> Spambot programs probably don't understand the fields anyways, and will fill the form incorrectly.
17:16:27 <Gregor> I think if I saw a site with NuCaptcha, I /might/ just hunt down the webmasters and brutally kill them.
17:17:20 <catseye> selecting from a dozen animals would probably be more effective
17:17:34 <elliott> Gregor: Of course, it's trivially easy to fight off non-site-specific spambots: Hide, with CSS, an input tag with name="email" somewhere; whether by display: none (risky), visibility: hidden, opacity: 0, positioning it far away (Google doesn't like this though), etc.
17:17:53 <elliott> But everyone's egotistical enough to think their site will get special treatment if they do that :)
17:18:08 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, and server-side, just refuse to post whenever the email field is filled, of course.
17:18:12 <Gregor> That's pretty brilliant actually X-D
17:18:21 <Sgeo> What if someone's browser autofills it in?
17:18:23 <elliott> If it's filled after you give three warnings and a refusal to post, ban the IP for so long or whatever.
17:18:29 <elliott> Sgeo: Their browser is made of fail.
17:18:47 <Sgeo> I can imagine Opera doing that (on user request)
17:18:57 <elliott> So have it say "don't do that" on the warning page.
17:18:57 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, I have seen that. And then, hide also the text that goes with it "Please leave it blank", so that if CSS is disabled, you can still understand it
17:19:34 <Sgeo> What happens when Spambots become able to understand CSS?
17:20:25 <zzo38> Other ways are simply using protocols other than HTTP and SMTP, such as Gopher and Telnet.
17:20:54 <zzo38> Sgeo: You can just do other things such as keep the fields visible
17:20:59 <catseye> What happens when Spambots become able to understand Gopher?
17:21:18 <Sgeo> That sounds less useful
17:21:18 <catseye> you know that day is coming
17:21:27 <elliott> <Sgeo> What happens when Spambots become able to understand CSS?
17:21:45 <elliott> Sgeo: It's very hard to understand what's what with a CSS page; just ask Gregor.
17:21:49 <elliott> Spambots would have to do even more reasoning.
17:21:53 <Velmont> I did display:none on a big website, using that techinque, it did *not* work.
17:22:06 <elliott> Velmont: That's why you don't use display: none.
17:22:15 <elliott> Velmont: Also, big website = someone coded it in manually.
17:22:18 <Velmont> elliott: Yeah, I mean it's very easy to parse.
17:22:25 <Velmont> elliott: Not big enough for that.
17:22:36 <elliott> Velmont: Then use visibility:hidden or any number of things.
17:22:43 <elliott> Sgeo: Also, a lot of fields might be "fake", only with the real fields filled in by JS.
17:22:46 <elliott> So they'd have to understand JS.
17:22:53 <elliott> And by now the spammers have all shot themselves.
17:22:58 <Velmont> elliott: Only 100k visits per week. Which is not very much for spammers to consider making rules for it.
17:23:05 <elliott> <elliott> Velmont: Then use visibility:hidden or any number of things.
17:23:07 <zzo38> Gopher and Telnet protocols likely that if there are any spambots there will be very few, if any. These are uncommon protocols for the things that spambots are intended to post messages to.
17:23:16 <elliott> Velmont: Wait, did you use inline CSS?
17:23:24 <elliott> Velmont: Obviously put it in a linked stylesheet.
17:23:28 <elliott> With @import, even, if you can manage that.
17:23:36 <elliott> They're very unlikely to slog through that.
17:23:38 <Velmont> elliott: Hmm. Don't think so. Maybe I did. I can check the git log.
17:24:01 <elliott> Velmont: I would be *astonished* if spambots actually read linked CSS files, looked at all the selectors, and figured out whether it hid the field they're looking at.
17:24:07 <elliott> Velmont: After all, there are far bigger targets...
17:24:15 <elliott> Or, well, far MORE targets.
17:24:23 <zzo38> Do any spambots post ZIP quines anywhere?
17:28:12 <Sgeo> You can zip a dict?
17:28:41 <elliott> I EXPRESSED IT IN THE CLEAREST WAY POSSIBLE AND YOU CAN'T EVEN UNDERSTAND A DIRECTORY TREE
17:29:19 <zzo38> There is also a GZIP file that when uncompressed, makes a file that is the same as the compress file concatenated by itself
17:30:04 <Sgeo> What zzo38 said was clearer, but I don't think equiv. to what elliott said
17:30:15 <elliott> Sgeo: X.ZIP CONTAINS THE FILE "X.ZIP"
17:31:08 <zzo38> And there is a ZIP file which contains both a picture file and a copy of the ZIP file.
17:31:10 <catseye> that's like twice as cool as a quine program
17:31:15 <elliott> Sgeo: http://research.swtch.com/2010/03/zip-files-all-way-down.html
17:31:32 <elliott> catseye: it's great, it uses the fact that the zip decompressor is basically a simple sub-tc machine, with instructions and all
17:31:55 <Velmont> elliott: The CSS was in the included stylesheet. So it was not inline.
17:32:06 <elliott> Velmont: Then I'm inclined to blame something else entirely :)
17:32:14 <Sgeo> How can you make a captcha off of this?
17:32:15 <elliott> Velmont: Was the class called "hidden" or something?
17:32:23 <elliott> Sgeo: ...of recursive zip files?
17:32:33 <Sgeo> So what was "ZIP Captcha"?
17:32:41 <elliott> Velmont: Hmm. What was the markup?
17:32:49 <catseye> elliott: sure you can! "Upload recursive zip file here (one I haven't seen before):"
17:32:58 <elliott> catseye: I was thinking about that :)
17:33:02 <Sgeo> <zzo38> Do any spambots post ZIP quines anywhere?
17:33:06 <catseye> of course, compuers might be better at it than us
17:33:24 <Velmont> elliott: Just the same as the other fields. It had to know that it was disabled. So I think they read CSS.
17:33:33 <elliott> Velmont: Was it display:none?
17:33:43 <catseye> I think you should have to beat the captcha at chess!
17:33:51 <elliott> Velmont: Bet visibility:hidden would have worked. :)
17:33:56 <elliott> Velmont: Or even opacity:0; z-index: -34859758345893473
17:34:01 <catseye> Wait, that's also something where they kick our asses, huh.
17:34:10 <elliott> (For both of those, relative-positioning the next field on top of it or whatever.)
17:34:20 <elliott> Or just having it at the end, but maybe super-clever spambots won't be fooled by that.
17:34:33 * catseye goes back to the "identify this farm animal" captcha idea
17:34:54 <Velmont> elliott: They are just as easy to have a test for. - But I don't know how they got around it, but anyway, they can't do the STATIC captcha we're using now(!), but they did in fact spam a lot with the hidden field.
17:35:05 <zzo38> catseye: What if you do not know the names for all of the animals in English, or if the picture has bad lighting? (Or, if images are disabled?)
17:35:09 <elliott> Velmont: Just as easy, but not nearly as common.
17:35:21 <catseye> zzo38: it could be by sound!
17:35:26 <elliott> Velmont: Besides, opacity:0 may be some magic UI trick and hovering over it would show the field ;)
17:35:37 <catseye> and it should translate from all human languages.
17:35:40 <zzo38> catseye: You could have sound disabled, too.
17:36:04 <catseye> zzo38: it could be by smell!
17:36:06 <zzo38> It is also possible the user has never seen a farm or any of the animals.
17:36:15 <catseye> Perhaps we are not quite that advanced yet.
17:36:41 <Sgeo> The nice thing about r.gz is that even broken web browsers that ordinarily decompress downloaded gzip data before storing it to disk will handle this file correctly!
17:36:43 <catseye> OK, maybe this won't work.
17:36:49 * catseye scraps his patent application
17:36:52 <Sgeo> ^^surround by quotes
17:36:54 <elliott> zzo38: Yay, I have tex.pdf now.
17:37:11 <zzo38> elliott: So, it works now?
17:37:28 <elliott> zzo38: Well, I appear to have TeX: The Program: The Footnoteless edition, so yes.
17:37:36 <elliott> Why are the footnotes not part of tex.web? :)
17:37:52 <elliott> zzo38: Oh, dear; it has not changed the <foo> code references into hyperlinks.
17:38:20 <elliott> zzo38: Is that an Enhanced CWEB-only feature or something? :-)
17:38:57 <zzo38> elliott: I assume the reason the footnotes are not there is because Knuth used a modified macro package, perhaps?
17:39:24 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya.
17:40:15 <zzo38> Changing code references to hyperlinks is done by CWEB (Enhanced CWEB does it as well, since it is based on CWEB); I think there was no PDF format when WEB was designed.
17:40:55 <zzo38> (You might be able to make hyperlinks in WEB by modifying the webmac.tex file)
17:44:06 <zzo38> At first try to guess the output of \msg{\expandafter\meaning\noexpand\message} \msg{\expandafter\meaning\noexpand\noexpand} \def\qq{123} \msg{\expandafter\meaning\noexpand\qq}
17:44:33 <zzo38> And then read section 358 and 210 and then guess again. And then run it and see if you guess correctly.
17:46:22 <elliott> catseye: So what should I do with my OS Now? :) :P
17:46:26 <elliott> zzo38: I will in a minute.
17:47:37 <zzo38> See if you can find things which can be improved. (I read up to chapter 27 and I already found many things that could be improved, much of it probably having to do with limitations of Pascal; which can be improved in C)
17:53:02 <elliott> Erm, C question, I always forget this one: is *x++ the same as (*x)++ or *(x++)?
17:54:41 <Vorpal> elliott, *x++ will get the value and increment the pointer
17:54:52 <elliott> so *buf++ = foo is what i want
17:54:57 <elliott> char *base256(char *buf, uint32_t n)
17:54:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not sure what the order of *(x++) ends up as
17:55:15 <elliott> well presumably *x then x is incremented...
17:55:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah probably, but it looks so strange written that way ;P
17:55:43 <elliott> for (i = 0; i <= 4294967295; i++) {
17:56:03 <elliott> so it's definitely that value
17:56:08 <elliott> and i don't think there's a UINT32_MAX.
17:56:15 <elliott> Vorpal: and on platforms with 64-bit int?
17:56:18 <Vorpal> elliott, there is iirc, if you use stdint.h
17:56:42 <elliott> (that blog post about recursive zip crcs has inspired me to write a program to find a base-256 32-bit integer whose crc is itself)
17:57:49 <Vorpal> elliott, if you want to format that uint32_t the C standard says you should use one of the defines from <inttypes.h>
17:58:03 <Vorpal> they look quite bulky though
17:58:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I OPTOMISED my base256 function: http://sprunge.us/RFNZ
17:58:47 <elliott> (Reason: I want to zero out the buffer even if the result is small.)
17:59:03 <Vorpal> elliott, they are used like: printf("%" PRIu32 "\n", your_unit32);
17:59:04 <elliott> "Two or more, use a four, you fucking bum!" --Dijkstra, rolling in his grave
17:59:18 <elliott> what happened to the last unit?
17:59:25 <elliott> (heh, i typo'd your typo and it became correct)
17:59:55 <catseye> elliott: why are you not using shifts
18:00:02 <elliott> catseye: oh touche, i can do that can't i
18:00:16 <elliott> catseye: wait, for the divides sure, that's just >> 8
18:00:18 <Vorpal> even gcc -O1 turns % into shifts when possible
18:00:19 <elliott> catseye: but what about the modulo?
18:00:28 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean a bitmask :P
18:00:42 <elliott> Vorpal: well, you know what, I'm looping through 4 billion freakin' values here
18:00:45 <elliott> I'm going to hand-optimise
18:00:47 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway *the compiler does this for you*
18:00:50 <elliott> it's only a 20 line program :P
18:00:58 <elliott> and not trusting gcc has served me well
18:01:04 <elliott> especially in programs designed to process 4 billion items of data
18:01:06 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you not using clang!?
18:01:26 * Sgeo watches the Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear
18:01:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: It makes sense to use bitshifts if that is a better model of what you're *actually doing*, though.
18:01:59 <catseye> Sgeo: yeah what is this? i just saw a poster
18:02:01 <elliott> Please tell me there's a >>=.
18:02:05 <zzo38> Yes I think you can use >>=
18:02:20 <elliott> catseye: Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert are mocking Glenn Beck with ridiculous extravaganza, organising a satirical sally today.
18:02:34 <zzo38> (And I, too, use bitwise operations a lot)
18:02:45 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: It makes sense to use bitshifts if that is a better model of what you're *actually doing*, though. <-- well yes
18:02:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, but when it isn't that, don't :P
18:03:05 <elliott> catseye: (In response to Glenn Beck's Restoring Honor rally.)
18:03:06 <Vorpal> <elliott> Is there a >>=? <-- yes
18:03:14 <Vorpal> there is a >>= however
18:03:36 <Sgeo> catseye, mock rally thing with Jon Stewart and Colbert
18:03:41 <Sgeo> Well, rally for sanity
18:03:45 <Sgeo> Not supposed to be political
18:03:56 <elliott> Sgeo: *Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear
18:04:10 <elliott> (The merging of the Rally to Restore Sanity and the March to Keep Fear Alive.)
18:04:18 <elliott> Vorpal: omg my code can be OPTOMISED even more
18:04:20 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't need to shift it
18:04:26 <elliott> Vorpal: i just need my bitmasks to be that little bit higher up
18:04:47 <elliott> *buf++ = n & 255; n >>= 8;
18:04:47 <elliott> *buf++ = n & 255; n >>= 8;
18:04:47 <elliott> *buf++ = n & 255; n >>= 8;
18:04:47 <elliott> *buf++ = n & 255; n >>= 86;
18:04:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I need to see context to have any clue wtf you just meant
18:04:53 <elliott> that second one can easily be & 65280 right?
18:05:04 <elliott> Vorpal: see the above code
18:05:23 <elliott> Vorpal: i can just change 255 to 255<<8 and so on in the next ones, can't I?
18:05:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I think shifting a 32-bit integer by more than 32 bits is undefined behaviour btw
18:05:44 <zzo38> No, that shouldn't work
18:06:16 <zzo38> Because if buf is char* and then 255<<8 will be out of range of char
18:06:16 <Vorpal> elliott, and well hm, is this the CRC code?
18:06:24 <olsner> you still need to shift to get the right byte value to store in buf
18:06:25 <zzo38> So you will just get zero
18:07:08 <elliott> Vorpal: no, the crc code was generated for me
18:07:13 <elliott> it's primarily a big-ass table :)
18:07:13 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:07:34 <Vorpal> elliott, CRC is generally done with table lookup indeed
18:07:36 <Sgeo> "And do they respond to obvious pandering?"
18:07:45 <elliott> which is probably just as slow, right? :P
18:07:49 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, isn't base256() above the same as just copying the number into those bytes?
18:07:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: Implementation-defined for unsigned ints, IIRC.
18:07:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. But, defined endianness!
18:08:08 <Vorpal> elliott, oh right, you want this portable?
18:08:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, no, I just want to be sure it works :)
18:08:26 <elliott> Vorpal: And I can't imagine any *faster* way to do that, so, yeah.
18:08:31 * elliott changes *buf++ to buf[0], buf[1] etc.
18:08:36 <olsner> if buf is a byte-size type I think the anding is completely superfluous, you can just shift and store
18:08:51 <Vorpal> elliott, #ifdef BIG_ENDIAN ... #elif defined(LITTLE_ENDIAN) ... #else #error "Screw you" #endif
18:09:23 <zzo38> Perhaps write a better error message, though.
18:09:28 <olsner> or you can byte-swap and store as words, which could be slightly more efficient
18:09:29 <elliott> so >>8>>8 == (/ 2^8) / 2^8
18:10:24 <Vorpal> olsner, or you could do some ifdef for endianness then use an union
18:10:24 <elliott> Vorpal: is there a gcc flag to INLINE EVERYTHING
18:10:44 <olsner> I think there's an __attribute__(forceinline)
18:10:46 <elliott> Vorpal: is there a standard way to detect endianness?
18:10:48 <Vorpal> elliott, there are some __attribute__ s to force a specific function to be inlined if possible
18:10:53 <elliott> i wouldn't expect C to define things that much! :)
18:11:07 <elliott> Vorpal: I want to force even the functions that aren't mine... well, ok, really I just want the crc ones to be inline
18:11:08 <Vorpal> elliott, "if possible" here basically means "I will ignore it if you try to force inlining a recursive function"
18:11:12 <elliott> And they're generated code so I'm scared to touch them :)
18:11:22 <elliott> Even if they're perfectly readable.
18:11:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm using a goto to keep my nesting down, am I a bad person?
18:11:54 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: is there a standard way to detect endianness? <-- autoconf! *ducks*
18:11:56 <zzo38> elliott: There is attributes and stuff, and flags to set how mucn inlining it should do, but to inline everything you can use chunks in Enhanced CWEB perhaps, or use include files and macros, or etc.
18:12:04 <zzo38> Using goto is not always bad
18:12:23 <elliott> Even when it's totally unneeded? :-)
18:12:54 * elliott just puts the celebration in another function
18:14:30 <elliott> Vorpal: but, not autoconf :P
18:14:39 <elliott> fuck people not on little-endian right?
18:15:15 <Vorpal> elliott, why not let the user do cc -DBIG_ENDIAN=1 if they want that
18:16:08 <elliott> Vorpal: can't use UNION MAGIC!
18:17:09 <Vorpal> elliott, why not use a byteswapping function for them then? There are generally fast asm ones
18:17:22 <elliott> Vorpal: But I don't care about portability :P
18:17:27 <elliott> And if I did I wouldn't use assembly.
18:17:51 <elliott> srsly why don't i have manpages
18:18:26 <elliott> i A manpages-dev - Manual pages about using GNU/Linux for dev
18:18:54 <Vorpal> <elliott> fuck people not on little-endian right? <elliott> Vorpal: But I don't care about portability :P
18:19:20 <Vorpal> elliott, so why not just asm all the way
18:19:30 <Vorpal> elliott, gcc-doc for what
18:19:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm not very good at assembly. Hey, I wrote a bootsector yesterday, isn't that good enough?
18:21:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, good, I never call libc in my inner loop.
18:21:14 <Vorpal> Integrate all simple functions into their callers. The compiler heuristically decides which functions are simple enough to be worth integrating in this way.
18:21:16 <elliott> Well. I do 10 times per program (progress display), and whenever I find a collision.
18:21:30 <elliott> What about -finline-functions-called-once? :)
18:21:40 <Vorpal> elliott, you want to make them static then
18:21:44 <Vorpal> otherwise it can't know
18:21:53 <elliott> I'm sure it can figure things out anyway.
18:21:55 <Vorpal> Consider all "static" functions called once for inlining into their caller even if they are not marked "inline". If a call to a given function is integrated,
18:21:55 <Vorpal> then the function is not output as assembler code in its own right.
18:21:57 * elliott looks at the resulting assembly
18:23:04 <Vorpal> elliott, inlining can be a pessimisation if the code path of that function can be skipped with an if and the other branch is taken most often
18:23:09 <elliott> I DO NOT CALL THAT INLINING
18:23:10 <Vorpal> you need profile feedback here
18:23:15 <elliott> Do I need -fwhole-program to handle multiple C files or whatever?
18:23:33 <Vorpal> elliott, -combine -fwhole-program <list all the c files here>
18:24:24 <zzo38> Use Enhanced CWEB, and use chunks and then they will be surely inlined. Another way is C preprocessor macros for some things.
18:24:57 <elliott> $ gcc -Wall -S -O3 -combine -fwhole-program crc.c self.c
18:25:46 <zzo38> Now maybe it will work?
18:25:48 <elliott> Vorpal: I need -o foo.s or it doesn't combine.
18:25:59 <Vorpal> elliott, shouldn't it combine in a.out
18:26:23 <elliott> if (x.i % (UINT32_MAX / 10)) fputc('.', stderr);
18:26:25 <elliott> note to self: don't do this
18:26:38 * elliott is stupid. ever so slightl
18:26:50 <Vorpal> elliott, fputc_unlocked
18:27:11 <elliott> Vorpal: also, i meant more the fact that it spews .s everywhere when you run it, rather than ten times per program :)
18:27:15 <Vorpal> elliott, bypasses thread safety locks in libc :P
18:27:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well since you were going ridiculous anyway...
18:29:31 <Vorpal> elliott, why doesn't what work?
18:29:36 <elliott> if (x.i % (UINT32_MAX / 10)) fputc('.', stderr);
18:29:41 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:29:46 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you think it should do?
18:29:59 <elliott> print . ten times per program (the loop goes up to UINT32_MAX)
18:30:03 * elliott 's brain is malfunctioning, it seems
18:30:17 <Vorpal> you want a ! there I think
18:30:32 <Vorpal> elliott, you now *skip* it 10 times
18:31:16 <elliott> Vorpal: how fast do you think this will go then?!
18:31:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea
18:31:35 <Vorpal> elliott, a few minutes maybe?
18:31:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, it is not memory bound, it is CPU bound
18:31:57 <elliott> Vorpal: this is embarrassingly parallel it should be a dual-core program but i'm way too lazy for that :)
18:32:04 <Vorpal> everything could be in cache
18:32:06 <elliott> wtf @ xfce task manager calling it "sflf"
18:32:11 <elliott> the program is called self
18:32:15 <elliott> why would you think it's called sflf.
18:32:22 <Vorpal> elliott, what does ps aux say?
18:32:31 <elliott> elliott 12555 99.2 0.0 3716 376 pts/0 R+ 18:30 1:16 ./self
18:32:31 <elliott> elliott 12556 0.0 0.0 5364 632 pts/0 S+ 18:30 0:00 tee self_result
18:32:32 <fizzie> You must've incremented the e. :p
18:32:35 <elliott> (it's actually self_results)
18:32:55 <elliott> hmm no collisions so far, this strategy isn't looking good
18:33:11 <elliott> other things i'll try: reverse endianness? or perhaps a hex or whatever representation of the checksum?
18:33:17 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe there are no collisions that short?
18:33:31 <elliott> Vorpal: that "short"? I'm not looking for collisions per se
18:33:40 <Vorpal> elliott, you are looking for self-collision iirc?
18:33:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm looking for crc32(x) being the base 256 interpretation of x
18:33:50 <elliott> so, yes, hash(x) = x more or less
18:33:59 <elliott> Vorpal: crc-32 i.e. 4 bytes by definition
18:34:04 <elliott> i.e. there are no "larger" self-collisions
18:34:09 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. I never disputed that
18:34:22 <elliott> then what you meant to say is maybe there's no collisions
18:34:29 <Vorpal> but perhaps there are no such self-collisions
18:35:05 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/code/crcllision$ ./self | tee self_results
18:35:08 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, that would be sad.
18:35:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, it is trivial to construct a hash where there are none: h(x) = x + 1 % 256 for example has no self collisions
18:35:24 <Vorpal> operator precedence fail
18:37:33 <Vorpal> elliott, hm those dots, more than ten eh?
18:38:02 <elliott> ...................................
18:38:07 <elliott> if (!(x.i % (UINT32_MAX / 10))) fputc('.', stderr);
18:38:23 <Vorpal> elliott, attach gdb and check what x.i is?
18:38:30 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe you made an infinite loop
18:38:36 <elliott> for (x.i = 0; x.i <= UINT32_MAX; x.i++) {
18:38:53 <elliott> Vorpal: well, at least i know there's no collisions :)
18:38:59 <Vorpal> elliott, -Wall -Wextra would probably warn you about it
18:39:04 <elliott> for (x.i = 0; x.i <= UINT32_MAX; x.i < UINT32_MAX && x.i++) {
18:39:06 <elliott> behold my engineering skills
18:39:09 <Vorpal> "always true" or something
18:39:29 <Vorpal> elliott, that loop is infinite too? except it will just stall at the end?
18:39:44 <elliott> for (x.i = 0; x.i <= UINT32_MAX; x.i < UINT32_MAX && break || x.i++) {
18:40:04 <Vorpal> elliott, out of interest: would that even compile?
18:40:10 <elliott> wait, doesn't x.i start as 0 anyway?
18:40:14 <elliott> i can just make it a while
18:40:35 <Vorpal> elliott, unroll the first iteration
18:41:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm a genius. Just admit it.
18:41:46 <elliott> Vorpal: I like how it DOESN'T EVEN WARN ME about that union awfulness.
18:41:57 <Vorpal> elliott, why would it?
18:42:06 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean that the C specs say you can't do that?
18:42:14 <Vorpal> well, gcc accepts that, it is even documented
18:42:23 <Vorpal> since it is so common it is well supported
18:42:46 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, reversing endianness wouldn't help I think. Since you test all possible bit patterns
18:43:03 <Vorpal> no collisions one way, no collisions the other way
18:43:26 <elliott> i always *check* the result of the hash
18:43:35 <Vorpal> any change of endianness would just change *where* the collision shows up
18:43:37 <elliott> i never check it when the string that's fed is big-endian
18:43:50 <Vorpal> elliott, or, maybe not
18:44:09 <Vorpal> elliott, do you check the hash against the uint?
18:44:23 <Vorpal> ah then perhaps it could affect stuff
18:44:34 <elliott> i never check abcd with the integer dcba
18:44:38 <elliott> imagine a is a byte or whatever
18:45:12 <Vorpal> elliott, use arpa/inet.h and htonl(), with glibc that will give you an optimised asm swap
18:45:37 <Vorpal> if (htonl(crc32(x.s, 4)) == x.i)
18:52:03 <Vorpal> elliott, trademark infringement
18:52:27 <elliott> he tells people who write terse OPTOMISED programs to use that terminology and the logo
18:52:32 <elliott> well, we just use our very special dialect of terse
18:55:29 <catseye> "you keep using that trademark. i do not think you know what it means"
18:55:48 <elliott> catseye: *i do not think it means what you think it means, no?
18:56:04 <catseye> been a while since i last saw the movie :)
18:56:42 <elliott> watching it is on my infinitely long todo list
18:56:46 <elliott> but, well, internet meme osmosis
18:56:49 <elliott> i probably know half the lines because of that :p
18:57:03 <elliott> Vorpal: The Princess Bride
18:57:19 <elliott> source of, like, half of every internet meme ever :P
18:57:28 <Vorpal> elliott, the other half being Sparta?
18:57:42 <Vorpal> ah yes that was the name of that movie
18:57:43 <elliott> 300 is the source of exactly two, as far as I know.
18:57:55 <elliott> (madness!/SPAAARTA and "tonight we dine in hell")
18:58:07 <elliott> Sorry, *Tonight. We dine. IN HEEEEELLLL
18:58:42 <catseye> Vorpal: I am writing a bash script!
18:58:52 <catseye> I have decided I like pain.
18:59:00 <elliott> catseye: your MOM is a bash script
18:59:01 <Vorpal> catseye, okay, are you using bashdoc (it's like doxygen for bash)
18:59:06 <Vorpal> (yes it actually exists)
18:59:35 <elliott> using doxygen should be punishable by death
18:59:41 <elliott> or stabbing with rusty spoons
19:00:08 <elliott> http://www.sourcemage.org/bashdoc SOURCEMAGE ENGINEERING FUCK YEAH
19:00:17 <elliott> "I'm writing a bashdoc in C++ because I don't know bash."
19:00:22 <elliott> will cherish this quote forever
19:00:26 <catseye> Vorpal: No, I am using English sentences after #'s.
19:00:32 <Vorpal> elliott, the bashdoc I saw for bash was written in bash
19:00:32 <elliott> Vorpal: the bottom of http://www.sourcemage.org/bashdoc
19:00:38 <elliott> "I'm writing a bashdoc in C++ because I don't know bash."
19:00:55 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I'm aware of it being a wtf
19:01:00 <Vorpal> I mean, the parser eh...
19:01:02 <elliott> no but there are many layers of wtf
19:01:05 <elliott> you just have to... meditate on it
19:01:39 <Vorpal> elliott, must be a troll. It's a wiki
19:01:48 <catseye> Become the WTF you wish to see in the world.
19:02:07 <elliott> Vorpal: nope, just an idiot
19:02:10 <elliott> i have seen many like them
19:02:12 <elliott> not trollish, that line, no
19:02:18 <elliott> just... yes, i can picture who would do that
19:02:26 <elliott> anyway, brb booting netbsd! THIS WILL GO SPLENDIDLY I HATE YOU CATSEYE
19:02:34 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:03:50 <catseye> # There is probably a better way to do this, in a real language.
19:04:10 <catseye> Well, or if there were disklabel bindings for bash
19:05:11 <catseye> Vorpal: bsd command to edit BSD partitions on a disk.
19:05:12 <Vorpal> catseye, I'm quite good at bash, in case you wonder about something
19:05:24 <catseye> Vorpal: thanks, i will keep it in mind
19:05:48 <Vorpal> catseye, you tend to learn it when you write an irc bot in it after all
19:06:03 <catseye> Vorpal: I am using this pattern: DO='echo'
19:06:04 <Sgeo> Jon Stewart's apologizing for singing
19:06:27 <catseye> when it all seems to work out i'll replace it with DO='sudo'
19:06:37 -!- elliott has joined.
19:09:35 <elliott> Vorpal: catseye's usb-fu is not yet refined enough
19:09:44 -!- elliott has set topic: 9 days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:10:08 -!- Vorpal has set topic: 9 days since last oerjan sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | May contain nuts..
19:12:10 <elliott> this place definitely contains nuts
19:17:03 <Sgeo> How TF did the word "parse" be created?
19:17:13 <elliott> Sgeo: how TF did the word "fuck" be created?
19:17:27 <Sgeo> But "parse" seems like it has to be very new
19:17:31 <elliott> The term parsing comes from Latin pars (ōrātiōnis), meaning part (of speech).
19:17:42 <elliott> In computer science and linguistics, parsing, or, more formally, syntactic analysis, is the process of analyzing a text, made of a sequence of tokens (for example, words), to determine its grammatical structure with respect to a given (more or less) formal grammar. Parsing can also be used as a linguistic term, especially in reference to how phrases are divided up in garden path sentences.
19:17:42 <elliott> Parsing is also an earlier term for the diagramming of sentences of natural languages, and is still used for the diagramming of inflected languages, such as the Romance languages or Latin. The term parsing comes from Latin pars (ōrātiōnis), meaning part (of speech).[1][2]
19:18:26 <Sgeo> How long has linguistics been around for? That people had an interest in it?
19:19:09 <elliott> Sgeo: you realise that people adopt latin and greek terms to english all the time?
19:19:44 <elliott> "From Middle English pars, from Old French pars (plural of part), from Latin part."
19:19:57 <elliott> used as making-into-parts (of speech)
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19:22:42 <catseye> elliott: so why are you coding base256? if that is what you were OPTOMIZING before
19:22:52 <elliott> catseye: to find crc self-collisions
19:23:07 <elliott> based on that self-zip post, where he just brute-forced crc to find a zip file that, when you fill in that checksum, hashes to that checksum
19:26:11 <pikhq> Sgeo: Well, before the late 20th century, it was more usually called "philology"... (the change in term came along with an increase in rigor)
19:26:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: And had been practiced for quite a while.
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19:56:48 <pikhq> God I hate US patent law.
19:56:54 <pikhq> Fun fact: 20% of the human genome is patented.
19:57:09 <pikhq> Making it illegal to for cells to mitose.
19:57:31 <elliott> pikhq: erm only humans can break the law i think :P
19:57:40 <elliott> causing cells to mitose, sure
19:57:45 <Sgeo> Isn't there some ruling against that?
19:57:50 <pikhq> elliott: Humans do so by living.
19:57:57 <pikhq> elliott: Or reproducing.
19:58:10 <pikhq> elliott: Or caring for some life form.
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20:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> For having "adult and mature content" on AdSensed pages.
20:13:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Adult and mature... text?
20:13:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I guess Fetish Fuel is EVEN WORSE as a Troper Tales!
20:14:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, links to adult sites? Pages more explicit than the Fetish Fuel ones?
20:14:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You know, I've always felt that TV Tropes has suffered an imbalance due to "Anime & Manga" coming first in the alphabetical list.
20:14:35 <elliott> If it was "Manga & Anime" it'd probably be less weeaboo.
20:15:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it might also be due to manga and anime producing a *massive* volume of work.
20:15:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yeah, but...
20:15:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's actual *work* to get to non-anime entries after you expand all.
20:15:47 <elliott> And I think that's affected by the audience.
20:15:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, come *on*: http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/a/a8/Tvtropesanimeimbalance.png
20:18:40 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, the first page I sampled (Xanatos Roulette) looks fairly balanced.
20:19:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's *subjective*!
20:19:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ah, but I've zoomed out enough to see the relative sizes of sections!
20:20:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, I mean, Xanatos Roulette.
20:20:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BUT THEY SHOULD
20:21:16 <Phantom_Hoover> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Administrivia/TheSituation
20:21:52 <elliott> [[Turn off anonymous editing in the wiki. This is so that we can tell Google, "See, we do have standards, and we can identify and take action against people who violate them." This has already been implemented.]]
20:22:31 <elliott> "A Donation Button is already set up if you'd like to throw some money at us directly."
20:22:39 <elliott> "This may eventually include TV Tropes merchandise"
20:22:43 <elliott> I hate you and want you to die.
20:23:06 <elliott> "How dire is the situation, really? Is Tv Tropes going to have to shut down or cut way back?"
20:23:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, they disabled anonymous editing: it's RUINED FOREVER.
20:23:13 <elliott> Cut way back on all those needless expenses of RUNNING A PHP SCRIPT
20:23:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, they won't see any more of my little fixes. :)
20:23:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ah, right, because we all know servers cost nothing to run.
20:23:45 <elliott> "While it's a running gag that TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life, for many people it's equally true that TV Tropes Will Enhance Your Life."
20:24:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No they don't. But they don't cost *significant* amounts if you're smart.
20:24:14 <elliott> That PHP script is probably really inefficient. The webserver too.
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20:24:32 <elliott> Cost of paying someone to optimise the fuck out of everyone <<< cost of running an inefficient website indefinitely.
20:24:58 <ais523> elliott: I imagine it depends on /how/ inefficient
20:25:07 <zzo38> C programs do run more efficiently than PHP programs.
20:25:09 <elliott> ais523: We're talking about TV Tropes, who have recently gone certifiably insane.
20:25:13 <ais523> if you're running at the wrong computational order, definitely if you're at all large
20:25:25 <ais523> if you just have the wrong constant factor, maybe not
20:25:39 <elliott> ais523: Firstly, they started categorising tons of tropes as "subjective". This includes really universal ones, despite the fact that *every opinion on media is subjective*.
20:25:56 <elliott> ais523: This also meant you weren't allowed to add to some pages or something, I forget exactly.
20:26:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, they are trying to cut down on the "This Troper" crap.
20:26:15 <elliott> ais523: Then they started moving pages -- well, at least one -- to Troper Tales, for no apparent reason other than maybe they don't like the main namespace.
20:26:32 <ais523> well, some tropes are definitely objective
20:26:37 <elliott> ais523: And as Phantom_Hoover just pointed out, they stopped people adding "This Troper" and the like to the pages which was *nice* and conversational and not at all wrong, even the original goddamn wiki did it.
20:26:57 <elliott> ais523: Then Google dropped their ads and they've disabled anonymous editing and all sorts of crap and are whining about server costs.
20:27:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, c2 is fun to read, but useless for getting actual information.
20:27:26 <elliott> Oh yeah, TV Tropes is a SERIOUS INFORMATIONAL DATABASE
20:27:40 <elliott> Not at all something to read to brighten your day and maybe even learn something.
20:27:48 <elliott> It's practically an SQL table.
20:28:01 <ais523> wait, why did Google drop their ads?
20:28:18 <elliott> ais523: presumably there was a link to some nsfw site on one of the pages or something
20:28:34 <ais523> I would have thought Google were willing to advertise on such sites anyway
20:28:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, TV Tropes does actually have pretty NSFW pages in the main site.
20:28:44 <elliott> don't be evil OR unwholesome!
20:28:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: text can't be nsfw, and i haven't seen any nsfw images
20:29:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, "text can't be NSFW"... um, yes it can. Just not as blatantly.
20:29:18 <pikhq> How odd, considering Google actually has adsense ads for NSFW sites.
20:29:19 <elliott> ais523: anyway, I have no sympathy for them because they're making repeated stupid, bureaucratic, Wikipedia-esque "NPOV"-y decisions, disabling anonymous editing and then complaining about money.
20:29:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, it really can't.
20:29:35 <elliott> NSFW is "If someone passed by you, they'd go '...'."
20:29:44 <elliott> pikhq: They haven't been audited by a human yet, apparently.
20:29:59 <pikhq> elliott: Motherfucker.
20:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> And anyway, it said "adult and mature content" in the first place, so drop the strawman.
20:30:12 <pikhq> Positively retarded.
20:30:19 <ais523> elliott: people actually say ...?
20:30:24 <ais523> I thought they only did that in computer games
20:30:33 * ais523 wonders how it's pronounced
20:30:41 <elliott> ais523: it's pronounced [blank stare]
20:31:10 <pikhq> ais523: It's the awkward silence phoneme.
20:31:37 <ais523> hmm, in one of those RPGs that gives you a menu of what to say
20:31:45 <ais523> there should really be one that offers you a choice between ..., ???, and !!!
20:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, for what it's worth, I've never really read TV Tropes for the discussions on the pages in the first place.
20:32:35 <zzo38> ais523: I was making a game "Super ASCII MZX Town Part II", maybe in one menu somewhere in the game I can make that choice
20:32:35 <elliott> ais523: Sounds like the kind of thing Monkey Island would do.
20:33:17 <elliott> ais523: Some choice dialogue decisions from those: - Getting to choose how, exactly, to fumble your words and be unable to speak - Having the option of saying a variety of less-than-polite things that all end up saying the polite alternative
20:33:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I'll admit that the subjective stuff is going too far, though.
20:33:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: There are more than a few who like discussions on pages...
20:33:58 <zzo38> If needed, they could put discussions on a separate page, so you have the Article page and the Talk page, separate, which is how MediaWiki is designed to do.
20:34:40 <catseye> < zzo38> C programs do run more efficiently than PHP programs.
20:34:46 <catseye> but how many ISPs charge by the cycle?
20:35:05 <ais523> catseye: "ISP"? how would they even know how many cycles you'd taken?
20:35:15 <ais523> and how many were relevant to their business?
20:35:24 <elliott> catseye: I was referring more to optimising CPU usage and RAM, but mainly compressing the hell out of the page source (inline the CSS, NO SPACES ZOMG, gzip to hell, etc.)
20:35:29 <catseye> hosting is an internet service!
20:35:30 <elliott> Also: CACHE EVERYYTHIIIIIIING
20:35:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also, your "ruined FOREVER" attitude to these changes is really irritating.
20:35:47 <ais523> I suppose if you discovered that someone's BGP settings were sufficiently complex they were Turing-complete, you could run programs on the backbone routers
20:36:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They have made an awful lot of terrible decisions in a short space of time. I don't feel terribly inclined to contribute there any more especially as I am no longer allowed tow ithout signing up for an account.
20:36:01 <ais523> which would be awesome, but is a) unlikely to happen, and b) if it did happen, it would be unlikely anyone noticed
20:36:13 <elliott> Just because you can brand something as calling something "ruined FOREVER" doesn't mean it isn't actually.
20:36:14 <zzo38> OK, hosting outfit. I don't know if any do charge by the cycle, but regardless of what is charged, C programs are still generally run more efficiently (unless you are a bad programmer).
20:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, i.e. filling two text fields and pressing a button.
20:36:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OMG THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO OBJECTIONS TO DISABLING ANONYMOUS EDITING OTHER THAN THE MINIMAL EFFORT REQUIRED TO CREATE AN ACCOUNT
20:36:52 <elliott> Why did I never think of this obvious truth before?!
20:37:12 <Sgeo> Is the efficiency difference resulting in actually observable performance gains?
20:37:42 <Phantom_Hoover> You seem to have forgotten that they need to police their content to get any money for the upkeep.
20:37:46 <ais523> elliott: that sounds like the "just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're out to get me" argument, which is both entirely correct, and not particularly useful except as a reminder
20:38:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://wakaba.c3.cx/shii/ is a good summary of why anonymity is a Good Thing. Anonymity enables drive-by edits without significant investment in the wiki, it is far more convenient, and there are many contributors who only want to fix one or two things, and who will now *not*.
20:38:08 <zzo38> The difference is observable. I have written a complicated C program that does many things, and it still runs much faster than a PHP program which simply copies part of a file.
20:38:11 <elliott> It also enables the forming of cliques as seen in many, many places.
20:38:18 <Phantom_Hoover> They need money because they're IDIOTS who aren't as SMART as YOU, and as such they deserve everything they get.
20:38:18 <elliott> Anyway, you're just mocking me in lieu of rational argument, so forget it.
20:38:30 <elliott> You sure take this personally. Bye.
20:38:44 <elliott> ais523: "it sounds like X, X has property Y, therefore it has property Y" :)
20:39:07 <elliott> ais523: Consider: "They removed the website and replaced it with a 404 page." "Yeah yeah you're just saying 'zomg ruined FOREVER'." "Yes. Yes I am."
20:40:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, "ruined FOREVER" refers more to viewing ultimately fairly minor changes as if they have personally jumped up and down on your dog's face.
20:40:42 <elliott> Turns out Hoover isn't the same word as Hover.
20:41:24 <pikhq> Bweheheh. You can get Debian on a BDROM.
20:41:35 <ais523> elliott: what if they replaced it with a "temporarily unavailable" page, would it be ruined forever then?
20:41:44 <ais523> pikhq: I misread that as "BROOM", and thought it was entirely plausible
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20:41:52 <elliott> pikhq: debian is only 16 gigs of x86 sources
20:42:01 <elliott> is it all architectures binaries or something?
20:42:15 <elliott> pikhq: ??? x86 binaries are only 18 gigs
20:43:50 <pikhq> elliott: Pretty sure it's larger than that...
20:44:02 <ais523> 400GB is in range for a single hard drive atm, I think
20:44:14 <pikhq> elliott: Citation?
20:44:19 <elliott> pikhq: http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2010-October/000928.html
20:44:27 <elliott> | Current Debian stable source (5.0.6) | 16.8GB | lots of free software |
20:44:27 <elliott> | Debian i386 binaries | 18.5GB | same, but compiled |
20:44:27 <elliott> |--------------------------------------+--------+-----------------------|
20:44:37 <elliott> kragen is a pretty long-term debian user, so
20:44:51 <pikhq> elliott: It may also include the source debs.
20:45:13 <elliott> pikhq: that would fit on a single dual-layer blu-ray
20:45:19 <elliott> i guess two single-layers may be cheaper, but that seems unlikely to me
20:45:42 <pikhq> Single layers are much cheaper in that use case.
20:45:43 <ais523> hmm, binaries larger than source? that's rare
20:45:51 <ais523> normally the binaries are a little smaller
20:45:55 <ais523> although, probably the source compresses better
20:46:03 <elliott> ais523: i'm not sure that's compiled
20:46:17 <elliott> are .debs compressed? i forget whether it's a .tar or a .tar.gz inside
20:49:23 <pikhq> They are compressed.
20:49:47 <elliott> I still haven't found that maximal set of Debian packages page yet.
20:49:55 <elliott> I'd work it out, but I fear I'd have to use apt's API and *brr*.
20:50:18 <pikhq> It's an ar archive of: a version number, a metadata .tar.gz, and a data tar, tar.gz, tar.bz2, tar.lzma, or tar.xz.
20:50:49 <elliott> Use `dselect' or `aptitude' for user-friendly package management.
20:51:32 <pikhq> They still *have* dselect?
20:52:16 <fizzie> Incidentally, is there an aptitude equivalent of "apt-get source <package>"?
20:52:31 <elliott> fizzie: "aptitude source"?
20:53:26 <fizzie> There's nothing wrong with "apt-get source", of course (ha, rhymity), just thought if they're deprececacacating it.
20:53:38 <elliott> fizzie: It's not deprecated, it's just not the official package manager of the Debian project.
20:53:48 <elliott> fizzie: It is, instead, a lower-level tool, like dpkg.
20:54:01 <elliott> But true, I guess they might add that to aptitude and get rid of apt-* sometime in the future.
20:54:08 <elliott> Well, apt-get and apt-cache, anyway.
20:58:48 <zzo38> @<Entire program@>@;
20:58:58 <zzo38> @<Entire program@>@;
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21:34:11 <Mathnerd314> it's designed to be difficult to understand
21:34:37 <zzo38> How is it designed to be difficult to understand?
21:35:10 * elliott thinks Mathnerd314 has a pretty shallow understanding of mathematics for his nick...
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21:35:39 <Mathnerd314> elliott: obviously. otherwise I would have a more specific nick
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21:38:12 -!- catseye has changed nick to group.
21:38:16 -!- elliott has changed nick to syrup.
21:38:23 <syrup> Syrupy automorphisms.
21:38:31 <group> syrup: what kind of mathematics are YOU?
21:38:41 <zzo38> What does that mean?
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21:38:53 -!- syrup has changed nick to arcane-sceptre.
21:38:57 <group> Mathnerd314: having... studied... math a bit?
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21:39:07 -!- CRAXIOM___ofchoi has changed nick to CRAXIOM__ofchoic.
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21:39:39 <Mathnerd314> yeah, I would never hurt my axioms like that
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21:40:43 <CnsrvtnOfEnrgy> CatOfSmallCats: omg i need to get cats and name them after categories
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21:41:50 <zzo38> A guest teacher told me to prove the twin prime conjecture after the school was finished; I have been thinking about it ever sice.
21:42:53 <Mathnerd314> zzo38: really? you have nothing better to do?
21:43:02 <archaeology> zzo38: ...Good luck with that, I think they were joking ;P
21:43:07 * Phantom_Hoover once wrote the Riemann Hypothesis on a whiteboard for homework.
21:43:27 <zzo38> Mathnerd314: I have other things to do, too. But I have still been thinking about it. I don't know how to prove it, yet.
21:43:51 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, there's NIH and there's proving the TPC single-handedly after a day's work.
21:44:01 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: well you have *prove* it, that's the thing, *then* they will care
21:44:21 <archaeology> zzo38: You do realise the probability of you proving it is somewhere in the region of zero?
21:44:27 <zzo38> I have proven other things though, such as Pythagorean theorem (I have done so while resting on the couch).
21:44:37 <zzo38> archaeology: Yes I realize that
21:44:53 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, for extra credit, demonstrate that there are only 5 finite regular solids.
21:45:09 <archaeology> Proving Pythagoras' theorem is something like a million billion trillion times easier than proving the twin prime conjecture :P
21:45:27 <zzo38> archaeology: Yes, you are correct about that.
21:45:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Demonstrating that there are only 5 Platonic solids is slightly harder, but not much.
21:45:56 <zzo38> I will try that at some time.
21:47:07 <catseye> then prove plato was an alien (note: requires axioms not found in ZFC)
21:47:49 <zzo38> catseye: I don't think I can do that......
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21:50:30 <Gregor> You can't put them in nicks :P
21:52:23 * Sgeo tried to play with the twin prime conjecture in high school
21:52:47 <Sgeo> Did stuff like finding out that all primes except the early ones are centered around 6n+-1
21:52:58 <Sgeo> And thus, thought in terms of "rules"
21:53:12 <Sgeo> And dividing centers by 6
21:53:13 <Phantom_Hoover> If Sgeo solves the twin prime conjecture every mathematician in the world will commit suicide out of shame.
21:53:28 <Sgeo> I've stopped thinking about it a long while ago
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21:55:58 <Mathnerd314> how many programs do you know of that use Knuth's line breaking algorithm?
21:57:19 <catseye> i would assume tex contains some form of it
21:58:19 -!- catseye has changed nick to ChineseRemainder.
21:58:41 <Mathnerd314> that has to change... I want computer typography!
21:59:03 <zzo38> Mathnerd314: What has to change?
21:59:26 <Mathnerd314> the lack of usage of good line-breaking algorithms
22:00:11 <zzo38> Do you think the one TeX uses is good algorithm? It seems to work good when hyphenation is turned off.
22:00:16 -!- elliott has joined.
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22:00:32 <zzo38> (It sometimes works badly when hyphenation is turned on, though)
22:01:16 <Mathnerd314> well, it's definitely better than the seemingly-standard greedy algorithm
22:01:53 <zzo38> You can adjust it by changing the parameters
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22:05:49 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover_: I just don't know anymore. CS is too attractive.
22:06:05 <elliott> Mathnerd314: CS is easier, maybe...
22:06:24 <fizzie> GNU coreutils' "fmt" tool doesn't use the greedy algorithm, but I don't think it's exactly Knuth's either. It's has a cost function characterized by various parameters; it tries to avoid raggedness, too many lines, orphaned words; and it gives bonus points for line-breaking immediately after a sentence; and so on.
22:06:37 <elliott> i like cs, but it's strictly a branch of mathematics
22:06:41 <elliott> Mathnerd314: "hardcore"? seriously?
22:06:50 <elliott> out of curiosity...how old are you?
22:07:03 <elliott> catseye: no... WE'RE the machine
22:07:33 <catseye> i wish my name was Reg... my nick would so totally be RegAgainstTheMachine
22:07:38 <Mathnerd314> fizzie: "the algorithm is a variant of that given by Donald E. Knuth" http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/fmt-invocation.html
22:07:57 <elliott> ...who doesn't know how big O notation works?
22:08:11 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover_: yeah. I even know about big-theta too :p
22:08:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: yes but you're like three years old.
22:09:00 <catseye> Mathnerd314: Do you know how to prove that a language is not regular?
22:09:22 <elliott> catseye: step one, try and parse it with a regexp
22:09:28 <elliott> step two, failed? CONGRAJTSJ!
22:09:30 <elliott> "This may not be the best way, but sometimes you can use dd to write the file to a usb and it will be bootable
22:09:30 <elliott> dd -i file.iso -o /dev/sdb"
22:09:34 * elliott wonders what inexplicably saner dd this man has
22:12:01 <Mathnerd314> catseye: I'd write an algorithm for parsing it, and see how much state I'd need
22:12:40 <elliott> write a working program and then analyse it's properties... sounds like Mathnerd314 really is CSnerdΩ
22:12:54 <Mathnerd314> catseye: but first I'd check wikipedia to see if there were any good theorems
22:13:22 <elliott> in the future, papers will have references to wikipedia
22:13:26 <elliott> and that will be a sad, sad day
22:15:40 <catseye> Mathnerd314: you do realize that the existence of an algorithm that can't parse it doesn't imply non-existence of an algorithm that can, yes?
22:16:24 <elliott> pikhq: "Reversing a longstanding policy, the federal government said on Friday that human and other genes should not be eligible for patents."
22:17:40 <Mathnerd314> elliott: that's already there, in middle/high schools. But I'm guessing most colleges will use Arxiv or something
22:17:41 <Mathnerd314> the main thing to worry about is citing a Google search
22:18:12 <elliott> Or... you know... cite the actual journal.
22:18:34 <Mathnerd314> catseye: ok; after checking wikipedia, I'd find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myhill-Nerode_theorem, and then see if I could use that
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22:19:03 <Mathnerd314> catseye: or maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumping_lemma_for_regular_languages since it looks easier
22:20:27 <Gregor> (I'll pump your lemma)
22:21:26 <catseye> Gregor: Your lemma's so fat it needs its own paper
22:22:22 <Gregor> catseye: Your lemma's so ugly they published it in an addendum.
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22:27:11 <catseye> 11:26 -frigg(~frigg@freenode/utility-bot/frigg)- Available help topics are: help
22:27:33 <catseye> 11:26 -frigg(~frigg@freenode/utility-bot/frigg)- help <topic|command> -- Gives help on a given topic or command.
22:28:10 <zzo38> catseye: I get 44 help topics.
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22:30:46 <catseye> also, there are 480 possible bases for the octonions! we are so lucky to have so much choice
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22:34:22 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover_: multiplication tables for e_0 through e_7
22:34:57 <catseye> here I thought there were just "the octonions"
22:35:03 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover_: don't believe it!
22:35:14 <catseye> "string theory, special relativity, and quantum logic"
22:35:34 <catseye> immensely practical subjects
22:36:45 <catseye> yeah, octonions aren't knotty, they're just weird
22:40:45 <Phantom_Hoover_> ...Or I could, if I hadn't deleted the useless executable months ago.
22:41:32 <zzo38> And is Dirac notation *useful* in accounting?
22:42:36 <zzo38> Well, I find Dirac notation useful in accounting. (That is, using matrix accounting, which is some mathematics for accounting, that I made up, and it is useful)
22:42:47 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: What is a precis of the stuff?
22:44:46 <zzo38> Now I wrote the "intlconv.w" program, so that the translation files used with "internationalization.wi" program can be maintained easily.
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22:46:28 <zzo38> And what is Oolite?
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22:48:19 <zzo38> O, go drink hydroxic acid.
22:48:53 <zzo38> Can you answer my questions?
22:49:36 <Sgeo> Nor am I a geologist
22:50:16 <Sgeo> What of apparently 3 oolites are you referring to?
22:50:27 <Sgeo> You're not referring to the rock, you're not referring to the video game
22:50:36 <Sgeo> You are referring to the video game
22:50:48 <Sgeo> Why would I have to be British to care?
22:52:09 * Sgeo splashes hydroxic acid in zzo38's face
22:52:59 <zzo38> I should try to make a set of cards and tokens for a Mornington Crescent game. I already have a map.
22:55:56 <zzo38> Now see the programs http://sprunge.us/XHjL and http://sprunge.us/PdEF and now complain that I did it wrong because there is no such command in C, or because the sun is the wrong color, or whatever.
22:56:34 <elliott> zzo38: The sun should be blue.
22:56:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, I need a nerd (preferably lovable) to explain why it is within normal operating parameters for my graphics driver to crash my computer.
22:56:50 <Sgeo> I remember seeing WEB stuff
22:57:01 <Sgeo> Assuming that that's what WEB stuff looks like
22:57:11 <zzo38> elliott: Not in this solar system, I think....
22:57:34 * Sgeo hits zzo38 with an @
22:57:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: These programs are Enhanced CWEB programs. It is similar to WEB, but C instead of Pascal, as well as some other differences, too.
22:57:42 <zzo38> Can you understand these programs?
22:57:54 <Sgeo> The thing I read about wasn't specific to any language
22:58:44 <Sgeo> I wrote some Python stuff with it
22:58:48 <zzo38> Sgeo: The WEB system was designed for Pascal. (The reference implementation of TeX is written in WEB.)
22:59:05 <Sgeo> Well, whatever I used had a lot of @
22:59:10 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then it might have been a different language-independent system, such as noweb or newfangle.
22:59:38 <Sgeo> noweb sounds right
23:00:37 <zzo38> What program did you write with it?
23:01:30 <Sgeo> I don't remember
23:01:37 <Sgeo> Probably something Haver related
23:02:28 <Sgeo> A chat protocol supposed to be used instead of IRC
23:02:59 <ais523> hmm, Clang's coming along well
23:03:09 <Sgeo> elliott, help me describe Haver?
23:03:09 <ais523> it now does the whole of FreeBSD, and enough of Linux that the result runs well enough to recompile itself
23:03:24 <elliott> Sgeo: It's IRC, except worse, and nobody uses it.
23:04:11 <Sgeo> "worse"? Howso?
23:04:13 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, do you understand my two programs? Is there any parts you did not understand, you can ask?
23:04:28 <ais523> hmm, "IRC, except worse" describes a lot of things
23:04:42 * Sgeo didn't read them
23:04:50 <zzo38> I think IRC is OK, if they followed the protocol, which they don't!
23:05:36 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then, read them
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23:07:44 <zzo38> Also tell me if there are things you do not like about these programs
23:08:52 <ais523> zzo38: in that case, "IRC, except worse" describes practical implementations of IRC
23:10:10 <zzo38> ais523: My IRC server and IRC client is capable to use the proper protocol (although it also can use non-standard extensions).
23:10:32 <zzo38> Most IRC servers and IRC clients are not capable to use the proper protocol.
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23:14:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> OK. I now need advice on use of enhanced coercive interrogation techniques to make my computer stop mocking me.
23:16:07 <zzo38> I don't know anything about enhanced coercive interrogation techniques.
23:18:20 <zzo38> Read a book about it, then.
23:18:34 <elliott> "WATERBOARDING: The Do-It-Yourself Guide"
23:18:46 <elliott> I swear, waterboarding sounds like a sport.
23:19:07 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure you don't need a book to teach you how to waterboard
23:19:24 <Sgeo> Unless it's about not accidentally killing the person, psychological damage, etc
23:19:35 <Sgeo> How to use it to get confessions that might not actually be true
23:19:41 <olsner> you can't just put a board on water and expect to do waterboarding without some instruction
23:19:54 <elliott> you gotta learn how to keep your balance
23:22:08 <olsner> would probably be a good strategy to get rid of criticism due to waterboarding - invent a sport to match the name and market it violently until no-one remembers a method of torture with the same name
23:23:03 <olsner> "what do you think about waterboarding performed by the military?" "I think it's great that they get some R&R over there!"
23:23:32 <elliott> surfboards don't have feet straps do they?
23:23:36 <elliott> you could add that to start with
23:23:58 <olsner> no, they're just flat afaik
23:24:13 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover_: *board* and water :D
23:25:08 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: ?
23:25:23 <elliott> olsner: ok so maybe with waterboarding you're actually like
23:25:29 <elliott> olsner: lying flat on the board at all times
23:26:24 <olsner> although you do that when surfing too, just not all the time
23:27:07 <elliott> olsner: right, but CONSTANTLY
23:27:16 <elliott> olsner: maybe your arms go underneath, and you tie them to it
23:27:21 <elliott> you become one with the board!
23:29:34 <olsner> it's like, drowning while strapped to a board and having fun!
23:30:46 <elliott> olsner: just like waterboarding.
23:32:37 <olsner> well, the torture version is less likely to kill you I think
23:33:01 <elliott> olsner: it sounds great though
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23:41:36 <Vorpal> <ais523> zzo38: in that case, "IRC, except worse" describes practical implementations of IRC <-- "IRC, except not quite as braindead" is how practical implementations of IRC work.
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23:58:39 <Sgeo> What's braindead about the spec?
00:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> Oh dear god, there's a heavy metal version of Pictures at an Exhibition.
00:07:10 <elliott> There's a heavy metal version of the Teletubbies theme, I'm sure :P
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00:08:07 <Gregor> "99% of all California farms are family owned." I like how they carefully chose the metric such that it would sound good.
00:08:13 <Gregor> Change that to farmLAND and it would be awful.
00:15:48 <Sgeo> Who cares whether it's families or corporations who own farmland?
00:16:18 <Gregor> The same kind of people who like froo-froo commercials where folksy idiots talk about how they more or less waste their life in an extremely inefficient but subsidized industry.
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00:41:54 <catseye> i suddenly want to write a shell script which creates a directory, copies itself there, cd's there, and execs that copy
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00:47:35 <olsner> I wonder how long a script like that can keep going
00:47:48 <catseye> but so is eating, and i have the urge to do that all the time
00:54:38 <Gregor> Not long, most systems have pathname limits.
00:54:43 <Gregor> Your PWD would get too big.
00:55:32 <olsner> could you e.g. end up having created a path too long for 'rm' though?
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01:16:15 <elliott> <Gregor> Not long, most systems have pathname limits.
01:16:16 <elliott> <Gregor> Your PWD would get too big.
01:16:39 <pikhq> Linux has a 4k pathname limit.
01:16:44 <Gregor> Symlinks still have to be resolved.
01:17:02 <elliott> Gregor: pathname limits are lame :(
01:17:11 <Gregor> elliott: Then use HURD.
01:17:25 <elliott> Gregor: HURD people argue about what to define PATH_MAX as :-)
01:17:37 <elliott> #define PATH_MAX UINT_MAX /* i would be fine with this */
01:18:03 <poiuy_qwert> anyone got any ideas what the icon for an interpreter of a language named Zetaplex should look like?
01:18:12 <Gregor> elliott: That would be REALLY bad.
01:18:20 <Gregor> elliott: Since a lot of people use char path[PATH_MAX];
01:18:28 <pikhq> Gregor: Their fault.
01:18:51 <elliott> pikhq: The job of a non-revolutionary system is to run more or less every program that isn't completely and *utterly* written by crack-addled crack monkeys :P
01:18:52 <Gregor> Let's just subtract UINT_MAX from esp!
01:18:55 <pikhq> I know, I know, that doesn't help Hurd build anything.
01:19:04 <Gregor> Uhh, nothing happened.
01:19:16 <elliott> Gregor: it'd become char path[0]!
01:19:22 <elliott> Gregor: and as we all know, [0] == variable length array!
01:19:29 <elliott> Gregor: therefore path is dynamically allocated Q.E.D.
01:19:39 * Sgeo wonders what type [Right, Left] is
01:20:05 * Sgeo hits self for failing to work it out
01:20:06 <catseye> poiuy_qwert: the logo from http://www.zetatalk.com/ maybe?
01:20:23 <elliott> Gregor: <Gregor> Let's just subtract UINT_MAX from esp! <Gregor> Uhh, nothing happened.
01:20:27 <pikhq> elliott: Hurd is a revolutionary system that pretends not to be.
01:20:35 <pikhq> elliott: And is written *by* crack-addled crack monkeys.
01:20:39 <Gregor> elliott: 'cuz it'd have to align the stack. But that's at the backend, not the frontend.
01:20:49 <catseye> Sgeo: I... "list of directions"?
01:20:58 <elliott> Gregor: And, fun fact, allocating 0 bytes doesn't create a variable array either. ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG
01:21:19 <Sgeo> Tell that to lambdabot
01:21:59 <Sgeo> It's sad I needed to ask the bot
01:22:01 <catseye> Sgeo: I did not know this was Haskell
01:22:04 <elliott> <catseye> poiuy_qwert: the logo from http://www.zetatalk.com/ maybe?
01:22:46 <elliott> catseye: oh cool she invented nibiru
01:23:12 <elliott> "Lieder describes herself as a contactee with the ability to receive messages from extra-terrestrials from the Zeta Reticuli star system" ;; hands up who thinks she decided she was hearing aliens first and *then* looked up a random star system
01:23:14 <elliott> and asked the aliens for confirmation
01:25:33 <olsner> a UINT_MAX sized array (assuming uint and pointers have the same size) would effectively be a -1 sized one :)
01:25:54 <olsner> hmm, unless the actual allocation is aligned by the compiler
01:26:33 <olsner> it's all fun and games until you think of the details
01:26:37 <poiuy_qwert> i was thinking of making the icon relate to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta
01:28:23 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: a zetaplex is clearly the Riemann zeta function
01:28:47 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: failing that, just put zetas on every face of a given 3d solid more than a cube
01:31:47 <poiuy_qwert> i really like those ideas, but then again i also need to be able to make it, and it should be recognizable at 16x16 or 32x32 :(
01:32:27 <Sgeo> Dear spammers: Why would I want any sex product where the boy's fingers were frozen off?
01:32:50 <poiuy_qwert> im thinking of just doing " Zζ " like in the image on wikipedia. so easy
01:32:56 <Sgeo> Subject: Boy's fingers frozen off
01:33:16 <Sgeo> Body (minus URL): Let the ladies gossip about the wonderful intercourse they had with you
01:36:44 <elliott> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pana_Wave
01:38:31 <Sgeo> Shouldn't they move to Antarctica during Antarctica's winter?
01:38:39 <Sgeo> That will help them avoid electromagnetic radiation
01:44:35 <elliott> catseye: [[Roughly a week before the supposed arrival of Planet X, Lieder appeared on KROQ radio in Los Angeles, and advised listeners to put their pets down in anticipation of the event. When asked if she had done so, she replied that she had, and that "The puppies are in a happy place." She also advised that "A dog makes a good meal".]]
01:46:09 <Sgeo> Did anyone else put their pets down?
01:46:22 <elliott> Sgeo: i don't know but lmao
01:46:27 <elliott> she just wanted an excuse to eat her dog
01:46:29 <Sgeo> Also, call me an asshole, but I just don't quite feel the same about non-human animals that I do about humans
01:46:36 <elliott> catseye: [[After the 2003 date passed without incident, Lieder said that it was merely a "White Lie ... to fool the establishment,"[10] and said that to disclose the true date would give those in power enough time to declare martial law and trap people in cities during the shift, leading to their deaths.]]
01:46:51 <elliott> "Everyone is going to DIE! Eat your dog! ...ha ha, only kidding. God, Woof was delicious."
01:58:01 <elliott> pikhq: What features does my boot sector need? :-P
01:58:16 <elliott> pikhq: It already has nothing!
01:58:27 <elliott> pikhq: (Well, okay, it does have a diagnostic output that even lets you tell how slow your floppy drive is.)
01:58:35 <elliott> pikhq: boo(o * number of retries made)t!
01:58:46 <elliott> nothing if it's never even run
01:58:55 <elliott> bo if it hangs while trying to reset the disk the first time
01:59:06 <elliott> boo... if it keeps trying to load or hangs or whatever
01:59:11 <elliott> boo(o...)t! if all has gone well
01:59:51 <elliott> omg zzo38 would love the hurd logo
02:00:07 <elliott> <elliott> bo if it hangs while trying to reset the disk
02:00:11 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/status/hurd-fvwm-screenshot-2009-11-12.png
02:02:17 <poiuy_qwert> elliott: i think my logo shall be http://oi51.tinypic.com/dy6c74.jpg
02:03:00 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: i like it but -- i'd make the text a little smaller so that it doesn't push the edges like that, and also a little higher -- it looks a bit bottom-heavy right now, even though it isn't
02:03:06 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: also, png, not jpg, man! :)
02:03:11 <elliott> Gregor: "Olaf Buddenhagen, 2009-06-09
02:03:11 <elliott> I have been using the Hurd for most of my everyday work for some two years now"
02:03:15 <elliott> Gregor: guess we've found out your REAL name
02:03:23 <elliott> catseye: can you believe it? ^
02:03:36 <elliott> "One particular problem for desktop use is the fact that while X does work, it works very poorly -- it's not only slow and jerky all the time, but also tends to lock up completely. (At least with the local socket transport... Haven't tried whether forcing TCP works better.)"
02:03:45 <elliott> this guy has used hurd for two years
02:03:52 <elliott> nobody uses hurd, so you must be the only one
02:04:01 <elliott> i like how they're finding out that
02:04:01 <poiuy_qwert> elliot: i'll try your ideas. and it is png, it just says jpg on the image host (i always use png)
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02:04:10 <elliott> implementing unix on top of pure message-passing daemons
02:04:16 <elliott> all components in separate processes
02:04:17 -!- augur has joined.
02:04:17 <elliott> is not the quickest thing ever
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02:04:41 * elliott stabs poiuy_qwert for misspelling his name
02:05:29 <elliott> Gregor: #define PATH_MAX ] = dynamic_path(); ""[
02:06:28 <elliott> [[The Hurd servers themselves are multithreaded, so they should be able to take benefit of the parallelism brought by SMP/Multicore boxes. This has however never been tested yet because of the following.
02:06:28 <elliott> Mach used to be running on SMP boxes like the ?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel iPSC/860 , so has an infrastructure for running on them. It has however not (yet) been ported to nowadays' SMP standards like ACPI etc.
02:06:29 <elliott> That is why for now GNU/Hurd will only uses one logical processor (i.e. one core or one thread, depending on the socket type).]]
02:06:40 <elliott> Gregor: "Everything is an independent server so it can all be run in parallel! Note: Only one logical CPU supported."
02:06:53 <Gregor> Why yes, Hurd IS a joke of an OS!
02:07:26 <Gregor> Why yes, Hurd IS a joke of a Gnu!
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02:47:07 <pikhq> Why is it that IE must make web design so damned hard?
02:47:21 <elliott> pikhq: it doesn't, it only makes web design for IE hard
02:49:56 <Sgeo> http://www.boingboing.net/2010/10/30/you-cant-tell-your-u.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+boingboing%2FiBag+%28Boing+Boing%29&utm_content=Twitter
02:50:14 <Sgeo> Stupid awesome ideas spoiled by reality and Microsoft's decisions
02:50:56 <elliott> that awesome idea looks like an ergonomic nightmare
02:51:51 <Sgeo> But wires can fix tha
02:52:35 <elliott> also: in no way more anonymous
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02:56:37 <Sgeo> Except for stupid autorun and that one piece of malware that doesn't even require autorun
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03:02:13 <elliott> pikhq: The problem with my boot sector is that all the booting fun happens in the OS itself :(
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03:11:43 <Sgeo> Opera forgot my settings!
03:11:46 <Sgeo> FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
03:12:02 <Sgeo> That's the last straw
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03:14:25 <Gregor> Sgeo: I would think the last straw would be shortly after installing Opera, when you realize it's not a good browser.
03:14:43 <Sgeo> It handled Reddit and ANGEL nicely!
03:14:52 <Sgeo> And the SL Marketplace login
03:15:01 <Sgeo> Opera > Chrome with those three sites
03:15:05 <elliott> Gregor: It's amazing how far Opera's got on having awesome people as employees and claiming to be super-standards-compliant.
03:16:50 <Sgeo> Chrome still has its usual Reddit issues :(
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03:18:42 <catseye> Gregor: that is but one of many straws
03:19:39 <pikhq> Gregor: Are there any good browsers?
03:19:52 <Sgeo> Chrome absolutely SUCKS with Reddit
03:19:58 <Gregor> pikhq: Even IE9 is better than Opera.
03:20:06 <Sgeo> Has Firefox improved any?
03:20:14 <Sgeo> Is Firefox any less of a hog these days?
03:20:21 <pikhq> Basically all of them fail hardcore at many cases of 100% valid HTML 4.
03:20:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: Firefox 4 appears to be less of a hog, but that's in beta.
03:20:54 <elliott> chrome is fine with reddit
03:21:07 <Sgeo> elliott, no. It is not.
03:21:14 <Sgeo> I try to open a bunch of comment tabs
03:21:26 <Sgeo> The tab with the main page freezes while the others load
03:21:36 <elliott> your machine/compilation/whatever sucks
03:21:47 <Sgeo> This happened on the old laptop too
03:21:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: E_WORKSFORME
03:22:01 <elliott> Sgeo: E_HERES_A_NICKEL_KID_GO_BUY_A_REAL_COMPUTER
03:22:15 <elliott> Running at 1.2 ghz, ultra-low voltage, and chrome handles a hundred tabs just fine
03:22:20 <elliott> (I use Midori now, but I did use Chrome.)
03:22:29 <Sgeo> Maybe it's an Internet connection speed thing. Slow down your Internet connection, see if the issue comes up
03:22:40 <elliott> internets do not work like that
03:22:59 <Sgeo> I mean, it would be a browser fault
03:23:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: Didn't happen when my packets went to orbit and back.
03:23:07 <Sgeo> But might not be noticable on a faster connection
03:23:30 <Sgeo> Then why TF is this happening to me?
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03:23:56 <Gregor> Chrome's UI is annoying, Firefox is a hog unless you have a computer made of COMPUTER, Safari is fine except for the Applism that makes its UI even worse than Chrome, IE9 is actually pretty good if you can get it into its magical standards-compliance mode, Opera is crazy-fast and light but painfully uncompliant, uhhh, what am I missing?
03:24:11 <Gregor> Well, yeah, then there's a whole family of WebKit browsers that aren't Safari, and those are mostly OK.
03:24:24 <elliott> they're usually unpolished though
03:24:51 <elliott> Gregor: you forgot the faux-minimalist Arch user penis-enhancing non-browsers that try to be as unusable as possible because of the idea that this is the Unix philosophy
03:25:07 <Sgeo> I don't mind Chrome's UI
03:25:07 <Gregor> I choose not to believe they exist :)
03:25:18 <Sgeo> I do mind its issues with Reddit
03:25:24 <pikhq> I'm back to using Chrome, because it works without crashing.
03:25:29 <Sgeo> Does Chrome have a safe mode I can try?
03:25:45 <pikhq> Though its non-standard UI *is* annoying.
03:26:19 <elliott> Chrome is nice if there's a theme that integrates it with your DE.
03:26:23 <elliott> e.g. Ubuntu's default theme.
03:26:58 <pikhq> There's a number of annoyances in Midori's UI.
03:27:06 <pikhq> For instance, its behavior when you close a tab.
03:27:09 <elliott> pikhq: also, it crashes all the time
03:27:19 <pikhq> It always goes to the tab to the right.
03:27:25 <elliott> also, Ctrl+N new window opens in background if you have tabs-open-in-foreground disabled
03:27:34 <elliott> pikhq: Even if you have no tab to the write? :P
03:27:44 <pikhq> elliott: Then and only then does it go to the left.
03:28:22 <pikhq> This is especially annoying when you would like to *go back to the tab you were on previously*.
03:29:14 <pikhq> Also, its key binding for switching tabs is annoying.
03:29:25 <pikhq> Ctrl-Pgup and Ctrl-Pgdown? WHY WOULD I WANT THAT
03:29:38 <elliott> pikhq: i've actually got used to that :P
03:30:40 <pikhq> Also, it was doing this annoying thing where it would actually jump down about a screenful upon the page fully loading.
03:34:20 <Sgeo> Bizzare scrolling behavior is Opera's forte
03:35:00 <Sgeo> And incredibly bizzare text selection behavior
03:35:27 <Sgeo> The always opening new tab to the right of current one was nice, though
03:38:30 <catseye> don't they all do that now, though?
03:38:43 <Sgeo> Opera does that even on Ctrl-T
03:38:49 <Sgeo> Which I've found handy on occasion
03:46:24 * Sgeo goes to download Factor
03:46:27 <Sgeo> It's been too long
04:03:56 <pikhq> elliott: Which album of Pink Floyd's was it that you said was only any good because of a single song on it?
04:05:09 <elliott> pikhq: Meddle, because of Echoes.
04:05:12 <elliott> Funny, I just mentioned Echoes.
04:05:33 <elliott> pikhq: The only even semi-decent song other than Echoes is One of These Days.
04:06:13 <elliott> The rest are: a love song, a bad football fanboy song, a TROPICAL JAZZ SONG (not joking -- waters wrote it entirely himself, that probably explains it), and a song where A DOG BARKING FORMS THE VOCALS
04:06:40 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuOB2_u87fo
04:07:30 <Sgeo> Is Who Let the Dogs Out better?
04:08:28 <elliott> catseye: i do not think that song was composed with semicolons
04:08:29 * Sgeo actually kind of likes Who Let the Dogs Out, partially nostalgia maybe, but I have the impression that a lot of people dislike it
04:08:40 <elliott> well it's a terrible song.
04:08:46 <Sgeo> I also like what I've heard of Nickleback
04:09:04 <Sgeo> Although the lyrics are objectionable -- I am able to hande that
04:09:17 <pikhq> The problem with Nickleback is not that any one song of theirs is terrible. The problem is that they don't have a second song.
04:09:21 <Sgeo> There's one song I like that has sentimental-seeming lyrics that are really just horrible
04:09:36 <Sgeo> (not a Nickleback song)
04:09:38 <elliott> Nickleback *are* *objectively* *terrible*.
04:09:47 <elliott> *ANYONE* who likes Nickelback HAS NO EARS
04:10:32 <pikhq> elliott: The point I was trying to make is that they are probably the most samey group out there...
04:10:41 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZrWY8s73tk The lyrics are pretty... bleh, especially when it's clear that it's abusive, but still
04:10:48 <elliott> pikhq: And their one song is terrible.
04:10:54 <pikhq> elliott: They're terrible because they are far far too consistent.
04:11:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Man, you know... Never listen to Tool.
04:11:27 <Sgeo> Are you saying I can hear the same melody, with different lyrics???
04:11:41 <elliott> If you find it hard to *LISTEN TO A SONG* because of *SOME LYRICS*... never, ever listen to Tool. Or... or many bands
04:12:00 <Sgeo> Although this one has nostalgia value
04:12:18 <Sgeo> elliott, link me to a Tool song
04:12:34 <pikhq> Sgeo: You should just avoid music with lyrics.
04:12:34 * elliott optimises for Sgeo's squick organ
04:12:36 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDJgKxLNsJE
04:13:02 <Sgeo> pikhq, I like Libera. I know the music is likely religious, but it's mostly Latin, so I don't care
04:13:08 <Sgeo> Or, well, it helps me not care
04:13:20 <catseye> A 1962 Lincoln Convertible -- *that* has nostalgia value.
04:14:40 <catseye> Sgeo, what do you think of Garbage?
04:15:22 <catseye> The band called "Garbage", and their music, in case the context wasn't clear.
04:15:35 <Sgeo> Never heard of them
04:23:49 <catseye> we are siamese if you please
04:23:57 <catseye> we are siamese if you don't please
04:28:14 * Sgeo imagines a language where you don't have to look ahead to understand what's going on at any particular point
04:28:58 <Sgeo> Factor doesn't count as doing it, btw
04:29:45 <Sgeo> 1 0 < [ stuff ] if
04:29:48 <Sgeo> That's ANNOYING
04:29:59 <Sgeo> Same with bi and tri
04:30:12 <catseye> well, anything with mutual recursion is going to have temporarily unresolved forward references
04:30:40 <Sgeo> ....am I asking to kill lambdas?
04:31:05 <catseye> you're sort of asking to break nesting's legs
04:32:51 * Sgeo ponders what it would take to have a thingy in Factor that enforces functional purity in marked ... words
04:33:19 <Sgeo> Add a "this is impure" marker to words that have side effects?
04:33:45 <Sgeo> ...Wait, how is dynamic scoping implemented in Factor?
04:33:46 <catseye> i don't know to what extent Factor supports the kind of metaprogramming that would let you do that
04:36:27 <catseye> YOU COULD TOTALLY DO IT IN FALCON (note: bullshit)
04:38:15 <catseye> i think maybe the thingie could be generalized
04:38:29 <catseye> although "thingie" is already pretty general
04:39:47 <catseye> what i mean is, (compose-with-property p x y) creates a new object z, out of x and y with property p, iff both x and y have p.
04:40:17 <catseye> p being something you're born with, if you're a builtin function
04:41:09 <catseye> then if p = functional purity... yeah
04:42:23 <elliott> catseye: that's just tags, in one of my type systems
04:42:53 <catseye> also could be polynomial time or something. yes it can be implemented very simply.
04:43:17 <elliott> print : string -> void [io]
04:43:24 <elliott> then if you call print, you're [io] too
04:43:27 <elliott> but you can use it as a pure value
04:43:41 <elliott> or : void [stdin,stdout], for instance
04:43:50 <coppro> elliott: ooh, interesting
04:44:13 <elliott> coppro: still has creases to be edged out. or something.
04:44:26 <coppro> elliott: also, you linked me to something about vertical vs. horizonal polysomethingism or whatnot a long time ago, do you have it?
04:44:37 <elliott> coppro: i... maybe if you're more specific!
04:44:50 <coppro> elliott: well, I have no clue what that would actually mean for something /other/ than [io], so that's why I'm intrigued
04:45:08 <elliott> modifies_state_variable $foo
04:45:11 <coppro> elliott: it was about how you can easily define new operations in functional languages and new types in oo languages, but not both
04:45:15 <elliott> set $foo 3 : void [modifies_state_variable $foo]
04:45:23 <elliott> set $foo read_line : void [modifies_state_variable $foo, reads stdin]
04:45:29 <elliott> of course this quickly gets dependent-typey
04:45:47 <elliott> coppro: let me try and find it :)
04:45:52 <coppro> elliott: how does that benefit the programmer?
04:46:01 <elliott> coppro: like haskell's io but less evil
04:46:04 <elliott> if you call something without any tags
04:46:13 <elliott> so the api defines the effects
04:46:19 <elliott> not just of the pure component
04:46:24 <elliott> it also specifies any statefulness
04:46:33 <coppro> elliott: hrm... smells of Java exceptions
04:46:44 <elliott> coppro: not any more than haskell's IO or State is
04:46:55 <elliott> coppro: gah i'm trying to think of that article
04:48:06 <elliott> coppro: that's what i'm going to do :)
04:48:23 <elliott> ./08.07.17:17:14:31 <augur> <tusho> GRAR SCHEME GRR SGLASGJ SHITTY UNDERPOWERED TOO MINIMAL GRR RARG
04:49:16 <catseye> also, the libraries are numbered. so wrong with that
04:49:36 <elliott> catseye: it's so versioning
04:49:42 <elliott> catseye: ABI-incompatible = new package
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04:54:36 <pikhq> There is absolutely nothing wrong with so versioning aside from people being able to fuck it up.
04:57:01 <elliott> pikhq: FYI, NetBSD Linux emulation does not appear to be up to the task of running Debina.
04:57:23 <pikhq> elliott: Any idea what the problem is?
04:57:33 <elliott> pikhq: something thinks the kernel is too old -- probably glibc
04:58:02 <Gregor> <elliott> pikhq: FYI, NetBSD Linux emulation does not appear to be up to the task of running Debian. // wow
04:58:24 <elliott> Gregor: I MAY HAVE BEEN GETTING DEBOOTSTRAP TO WORK ON NETBSD WITH CATSEYE FOR THE PAST FEW HOURS
04:58:35 <elliott> Gregor: I think I can get it to work by recompiling glibc with --enable-kernel=2.4
04:58:36 <pikhq> elliott: ... OH RIGHT.
04:58:39 <Gregor> I may have not been paying attention :P
04:58:46 <pikhq> elliott: NetBSD emulates Linux 2.4.
04:58:56 <elliott> pikhq: So I just need to recompile glibc.
04:59:14 <elliott> pikhq: Thankfully I can do it on this, my actual Debian installation, and then upload it...
05:00:24 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm. GCC won't be affected, right?
05:00:41 <pikhq> elliott: Wait, which version of NetBSD?
05:00:55 <elliott> pikhq: And let me tell you, NETBSD SUCKS HOLY SHIT
05:01:03 <elliott> Dpkg's source code is insane.
05:01:14 <elliott> It uses "strnlen(s,n)" which is just max(strlen(s),n)
05:01:22 <elliott> And then has a portability library defining it, but that library DOESN'T WORK
05:01:31 <elliott> coppro: it's a malloc without free using, uh
05:01:34 <catseye> just the what you learn when beating your head against a wall like this: fantastic
05:01:43 <pikhq> You could wait for NetBSD 6.
05:01:46 <Sgeo> 2 [ V{ } 5 suffix! clone . ] times
05:01:47 <elliott> as you can see, it has driven catseye mad
05:02:02 <pikhq> It does Linux 2.6!
05:02:03 <elliott> pikhq: I just want Debian/NetBSD! (Not kNetBSD, NetBSD.)
05:02:39 <Sgeo> Drop the clone
05:03:04 <Sgeo> suffix! adds the 5 to the empty vector
05:03:16 <Sgeo> Then, next cycle, you see that the original 5 is still there
05:03:19 <pikhq> elliott: So, why does it have its own malloc?
05:03:30 <Sgeo> Similar to Python's nuttiness, really
05:03:33 <elliott> pikhq: because it's more efficient for some database thing... it's just based on ... obtree? no
05:03:55 <elliott> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obstack
05:04:01 <coppro> Sgeo: what language is that?
05:04:05 <Sgeo> coppro, Factor
05:04:16 <pikhq> elliott: That's even crazier considering glibc has them.
05:04:22 <catseye> you need those cycles that obstack shaves off using the heap, man
05:04:33 <elliott> pikhq: It also has its own implementation of them, for compatibility.
05:04:38 <elliott> pikhq: This implementation inexplicably doesn't get linked.
05:04:58 <elliott> pikhq: I love the pattern of use fancy API to do something and then rewrite it with less fancy APIs for portability, but still wrap it up in the fancy API for no reason at all.
05:05:04 <elliott> WHY NOT JUST CODE WITH THE PORTABLE API DUMBFUCKS
05:05:08 <elliott> I don't CARE how fast dpkg is.
05:05:21 <elliott> Updating Debian takes some amount of time; it could take twice as long and I would not really care one bit.
05:05:30 <pikhq> I highly doubt memory allocation is a bottleneck anyways.
05:05:45 <pikhq> Network and disk bandwidth, sure, but memory allocation?
05:05:58 <elliott> pikhq: Wait, you don't have the BD-ROM release?
05:06:59 <pikhq> elliott: Even then disk bandwidth would be a bottleneck.
05:07:36 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, don't you use a RamSan?
05:07:45 <elliott> http://www.ramsan.com/products/4
05:07:53 <elliott> pikhq: Well that's not the recommended configuration, then!
05:07:57 <elliott> We optimise for that only./
05:08:22 <pikhq> Why not optimise for a more useful usecase?
05:08:33 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, sarcasm alert?
05:08:35 <pikhq> Say, a stock IBM PC.
05:08:47 <elliott> pikhq: I don't think that runs Linux :P
05:08:58 <elliott> Are any of the 16-bit Linux ports maintained?
05:09:07 <pikhq> Define "maintained".
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05:13:24 <Gregor> There are no 16-bit Linux forks. Calling ELKS a Linux port is kinda silly :P
05:14:10 <elliott> does uclinux run on anything <32 bit? guess not
05:14:30 <elliott> isn't that the one that uh
05:14:38 <elliott> uses "NOP" after an instruction to do error checking?
05:15:03 <catseye> Gregor only runs Hurd you see
05:15:45 <catseye> are there any 16-bit NetBSD ports? there so must be
05:16:08 <Gregor> I actually doubt even that.
05:16:36 <elliott> +Compiling the GNU C library yourself requires a lot of resources. For
05:16:36 <elliott> +a complete build using dpkg-buildpackage you need at least 750MB free
05:16:36 <elliott> +disk space and at least 16MB of RAM and 32MB of swap space (if you
05:16:37 <elliott> +have only that much you're better off not running X at the same
05:16:37 <elliott> +time). Note that the C library on the Hurd is also somewhat larger:
05:16:37 <elliott> +you'll need over 800MB of free disk space to build Hurdish packages.
05:16:38 <Gregor> (It actually doesn't support all that many CPUs, just a lot of hardware architectures)
05:17:38 <pikhq> 57 platforms, 15 CPUs.
05:18:16 <pikhq> Which makes it support more CPUs than any single Linux distro except maybe Linux From Scratch.
05:18:17 <Gregor> pikhq: Where we count big and little endian versions of things as different CPUs, and nearly-identical 32- and 64-bit things as different CPUs.
05:18:21 <Gregor> pikhq: Really it supports like 10 :P
05:18:28 <pikhq> (though Linux itself supports more CPUs)
05:19:47 <elliott> Gregor: 10 cpus, what a lame accomplishment :P
05:20:06 <zzo38> Is the GNU C library really large?
05:20:29 <zzo38> A lot of GNU packages are extra-large
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05:20:44 <elliott> As small as the BSD libcs.
05:20:55 <zzo38> elliott: Then why does it require lot of resources to compile it?
05:21:07 <catseye> is 750M of disk space really a lot?
05:21:07 <elliott> zzo38: The C compiler is very complicated and does clever things with the code.
05:21:16 <elliott> You could compile it faster and with less space using another compiler.
05:21:24 <catseye> is 32M of swap space really a lot?
05:22:10 <zzo38> I might suggest writing the C library using assembly language for the processor you are on, and use the C library written in C only for computers that do not have the one written in assembly language.
05:22:29 <elliott> zzo38: A lot of glibc is assembly.
05:24:34 <catseye> elliott: while you are compiling that, i will screw around with building another netbsd-on-a-stick!
05:25:21 <zzo38> A lot of these functions could be inlined assembly codes by C macros.
05:25:35 <elliott> Gregor: Please tell me what it is that makes Debian users so pissy X_X
05:25:49 <elliott> Typical #debian intercourse:
05:26:03 <elliott> <them> READ THE MOTHERFUCKING FACTOID
05:26:08 <Gregor> elliott: They are on IRC :P
05:26:15 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
05:28:35 <catseye> It dawns on me that the word "factoid", by its construction, should refer to something which resembles a fact, but is not actually one. (cf. humanoid)
05:29:14 <elliott> factoid is a sillyism of fact
05:31:49 <zzo38> And, what is a quasimetafactoid?
05:38:27 <elliott> pikhq: How long does glibc take to compile?
05:38:32 <pikhq> elliott: Hour or so.
05:38:39 <elliott> pikhq: On what kind of machine?
05:38:57 <pikhq> elliott: 3-core AMD, ~2.6GHz.
05:39:07 <elliott> pikhq: 2-core Intel Core 2, 1.3 GHz.
05:39:17 <elliott> pikhq: SO. LOOKING. FORWARD. TO THIS.
05:39:33 <pikhq> elliott: A lot of the time used comes from their usage of recursive make.
05:39:45 <elliott> pikhq: You could propagandise ANYWHERE :p
05:40:08 <pikhq> elliott: It's the most retarded use of recursive make ever.
05:40:11 <elliott> $(call xx,with_headers) $(call xx,extra_config_options))
05:40:21 <elliott> Or does it have to be 2.4.0?
05:40:38 <pikhq> elliott: Make on a fully built glibc tree can take 10 minutes just to realise it doesn't have to build anything.
05:43:39 <elliott> pikhq: Wait, you're on Debian, right?
05:43:56 <zzo38> I still think there might be something wrong with it if it takes a a really long time to compile.
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05:44:19 <pikhq> elliott: Recursive make makes -jN work much less well.
05:44:26 <elliott> pikhq: You're on Debian, right?
05:44:34 <zzo38> Then there might be something wrong with gcc then.
05:44:42 <elliott> pikhq: Feel like building glibc?
05:44:57 <elliott> pikhq: I mean, come on; if you do it, we get DEBIAN RUNNING ON NETBSD
05:45:20 <pikhq> elliott: Fuck no, I hate using glibc's build system.
05:45:22 <zzo38> My C programs don't take an hour to compile, even the large ones don't take more than a few minutes.
05:45:42 <elliott> pikhq: Good. debian-buildpackage does it for you.
05:46:04 <pikhq> Debian uses eglibc.
05:46:17 <pikhq> Among other things, eglibc redoes the entire build system.
05:46:25 <elliott> pikhq: Really? 'cuz it still seems to suck.
05:46:31 <pikhq> elliott: It sucks less.
05:46:34 <elliott> zzo38: Embedded GLIBC. Basically glibc minus its maintainer, Ulrich Drepper, who is a moron.
05:46:57 <pikhq> zzo38: A fork of glibc that's kept in sync with glibc mainline, but with a lot of niceties added that Ulrich Drepper was too much of a moron to allow.
05:47:00 <elliott> pikhq: $ mkdir glibc-build; cd glibc-build; dget http://security.debian.org/debian-security/pool/updates/main/g/glibc/glibc_2.7-18lenny6.dsc
05:47:07 <pikhq> zzo38: Also, it doesn't have Ulrich Drepper.
05:47:08 <elliott> pikhq: You can't resist at least downloading it...
05:47:20 <elliott> pikhq: You can't do this to me.
05:47:45 <pikhq> elliott: I've built enough things this decade.
05:47:58 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, let me elaborate.
05:48:10 <elliott> pikhq: I JUST SPENT HOURS GETTING DEBOOTSTRAP -- WORST-DESIGNED BASH SCRIPT EVER -- TO RUN ON NETBSD
05:48:17 <elliott> pikhq: IT NOW HAS LIKE 30 DEBUG MESSAGES
05:48:25 <elliott> pikhq: THE ONLY BLOCKER TO A FULL DEBIAN SYSTEM RUNNING ENTIRELY PERFECTLY ON *NETBSD*
05:48:29 <elliott> pikhq: IS ONE LIBC COMPILE
05:50:32 <elliott> pikhq: Or at least give me a set of Linux 2.4 headers.
05:52:29 * Gregor so desperately wants a C compiler for System V :(
05:52:45 <elliott> Gregor: SYSTEM V? Fuck that shit! FIRST! EDITION! UNIX!
05:53:25 <elliott> Gregor: Unix? Fuck that shit! PABST! BLUE! RIwait.
05:54:16 <elliott> SUDDENLY, OS/2 DEVOLVES INTO FREAKISH LIZARD THING AND MATES WITH THE CAPTAIN
05:54:23 <elliott> LEAVES SPAWN ON HOSTILE PLANET, RETURNS TO SHIP
05:54:35 <elliott> Gregor: And THAT is why OS/2 was discontinued.
05:54:38 <catseye> HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
05:55:02 <catseye> i had all those fucking floppies
05:55:41 <elliott> catseye: summary of computing.
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06:01:17 <elliott> where can i get linux 2.4 headers for i386
06:02:59 <elliott> Gregor: Can you motherfucking believe that 2.4 is still maintained?
06:03:08 <Gregor> I can motherfucking believe it.
06:03:10 <elliott> I EXPRESS MY DOUBT AT THE NOTION THAT YOU CAN MOTHERFUCKING BELIEVE IT
06:03:39 <catseye> A man has a right to his motherfucking beliefs
06:04:33 <elliott> Gregor: whut, linux 2.4 source tree has only arch/ crypto/ Documentation/ and drivers/ folders
06:04:42 <elliott> DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE TO YOU
06:05:17 <Gregor> They're fucking DIRECTORIES
06:05:22 <elliott> because it's all graphical gnome bullshit
06:05:25 <pikhq> When did 2.2 stop being maintained?
06:05:51 <elliott> I just wish arch/sh/ was a port to the POSIX shell.
06:06:02 <elliott> there are more directories
06:06:05 <elliott> file-roller is just retarded
06:06:23 <pikhq> Oh, wait, 2005, *technically*.
06:06:32 <pikhq> The newest version of 2.2 is 2.2.27-rc2.
06:07:05 <elliott> Linus is actually working on 2.2.27 as we speak.
06:07:09 <elliott> It will be the greatest. Linux. EVER
06:07:22 <pikhq> Please tell me you're joking.
06:08:21 <elliott> pikhq: Why? Wouldn't that be AMAZING?
06:08:53 <elliott> "Hey guys, I decided 2.4 onwards is faggy bullshit and I've been working on 2.2 for a few years. Here's the current tree. It runs Flash without lag. Natively. On x86-64. I ported the machine code manually."
06:08:55 <pikhq> ... The newest version of 2.0 came out in 2004.
06:09:02 <elliott> checking for suffix of object files... configure: error: cannot compute suffix of object files: cannot compile
06:09:05 <elliott> CANNOT COMPUTE BEEEEEEEEEEP
06:09:06 <pikhq> elliott: I would love that.
06:09:34 <pikhq> elliott: Actually.
06:09:41 <catseye> your object files end with fail
06:09:45 <elliott> pikhq: "I've actually had my secretary reply to lkml email for a few years, what have I missed? Ha ha, just joking, I don't give a fuck. You're all idiots."
06:10:46 <pikhq> elliott: "Hey guys, I just made 2.8.0. You may also know it as 2.2.27."
06:11:11 <elliott> pikhq: "I also decided, what the fuck is up with this 2.2 bullshit? It's way better than anything else called 2.x. So, fuck it, here's Linux 3."
06:11:56 <elliott> pikhq: "The tarball is http://kernel.org/linux3.tgz, because (1) I don't care about your shitty website organisation scheme, and (2) I don't care about your long filenames and crap. I suggest you replace http://kernel.org/ with a link to it because DAMN is that site one major boner-kill."
06:12:32 <pikhq> "Oh, and what the hell were you guys smoking with that ALSA crap? I backported OSSv4. Took me a couple hours."
06:12:52 <elliott> pikhq: YOU'RE DOING IT ALL WRONG:
06:13:19 <elliott> pikhq: "Oh, I started maintaining OSS too. I had it checked out in my source tree and didn't really notice it wasn't some of my drunk code. Features added include multiple processes writing to /dev/dsp at once, etc"
06:13:38 <elliott> --enable-kernel=2.4 --with-headers=/home/elliott/libc/glibc-2.7/debian/include --enable-kernel=2.6.8
06:16:02 <elliott> /home/elliott/libc/glibc-2.7/build-tree/glibc-2.7/configure: line 3326: i486-linux-gnu-gcc: command not found
06:17:27 <elliott> pikhq: "I've also updated the USB stack because it sucked. It's 3,000 lines now."
06:17:32 <catseye> http://pkgsrc.se/chat/irssi "Irssi is an IRC client that could be pretty awesome someday, maybe."
06:17:39 <pikhq> elliott: 2.2 had a sane USB stack.
06:17:51 <elliott> catseye: worst description ever
06:17:54 <elliott> pikhq: But was it 3,000 lines? I think not.
06:18:05 <pikhq> elliott: Lemme check.
06:18:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:19:01 <elliott> catseye: what is it with ... people and inability to summarise programs?
06:19:06 <elliott> as well as meaningless words like "modular"
06:20:23 <pikhq> elliott: 48,000 lines for the entire thing, including all the drivers.
06:21:15 <elliott> (No point in the version.)
06:21:22 <pikhq> elliott: A reasonably functioning USB implementation, though, could be had in about 8,000 lines.
06:21:45 <pikhq> (USB protocol + OHCI + UHCI + HID)
06:21:59 <elliott> Who wants to see American TV explain, and depict, IRC?
06:22:00 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ
06:22:11 <elliott> It's where hackers go when they don't want to I've forgotten the rest of the line.
06:22:25 <elliott> *** These critical programs are missing or too old: as ld
06:22:25 <elliott> *** Check the INSTALL file for required versions.
06:22:30 <elliott> checking version of as... 2.20.1, bad
06:22:52 <pikhq> elliott: When they don't want to be overheard.
06:23:15 <elliott> that show is terribly irrirtating
06:23:30 <pikhq> "Luckily, I speak leet."
06:23:36 <elliott> semi-mathematical deus ex machinas + WOW WE ZOOM OUT AND SCRIBBLE EQUATIONS THAT MAKE NO SENSE ON THE SCREEN SO YOU KNOW THEY'RE DEEP THINKERS
06:24:27 <pikhq> 1337 15 @ 5|_||35717|_|710|\| (`/|)#3|2 |_)|_||_)3Z
06:24:42 <coppro> pikhq: clearly the killer is from New Jersey!
06:25:18 <pikhq> coppro: Well, of course. New Jersey is the sole cause of murderers.
06:25:31 <elliott> pikhq: Say... How could I make glibc *not* try and check that the kernel is new enough?
06:25:35 <elliott> pikhq: Some environment variable?
06:25:45 <pikhq> elliott: emacs configure.ac
06:26:08 <elliott> catseye$ sudo chroot debian
06:26:10 <coppro> pikhq: I thought that was Philadelphia
06:26:13 <elliott> pikhq: How can I make glibc shut up and try anyway?
06:26:26 <coppro> (bonus points if you're sailing there to draw a line)
06:27:24 <catseye> i just made a netbsd stick with includes of some awesome APPS: netcat! nano! links! irssi!
06:27:37 <pikhq> elliott: Down the highway, not across the street.
06:27:58 <elliott> catseye: you forgot X111111111
06:28:23 <catseye> elliott: that's one of the distribution sets. i just need to untar it
06:28:47 <catseye> i might as well put the whole thing through its paces, see how much space it uses up
06:30:19 <elliott> pikhq: Not so! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/razor2.gif Across the jugular.
06:32:18 <pikhq> elliott: Huh, Maddox actually updated. Several times.
06:32:27 <pikhq> Well, three times.
06:32:56 <pikhq> Which is fairly astounding compared to the past 3 years of hardly anything.
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06:44:18 <catseye> elliott: that would be unfortunate, as the partition is only 500M right now, to make it faster to dd
06:44:37 <elliott> catseye: i'm thinkin': let's wait until netbsd 6
06:44:59 <elliott> catseye: yes; when it's done
06:45:11 <catseye> i mean, 5 just came out, didn't it? earlier this year
06:45:17 <elliott> http://www.netbsd.org/changes/changes-6.0.html
06:45:24 <elliott> Update linux emulation to support the most commonly used linux 2.6.x kernel features. We now claim to be linux kernel version 2.6.18. [chs 20100706]
06:45:50 <elliott> cool, it emulates linux even on non-x86 :)
06:45:51 <catseye> why am i not running netbsd-CURRENT
06:45:58 <elliott> catseye: have fun updating :P
06:46:39 <catseye> i... though svgalib was dead
06:46:45 <elliott> "shared libraries that the program depends on, and the run-
06:46:45 <elliott> time linker. Also, you will need to create a ``shadow root'' directory
06:46:45 <elliott> for Linux binaries on your NetBSD system. This directory is named
06:46:45 <elliott> /emul/linux or /emul/linux32 for 32bit emulation on 64bit systems. Any
06:46:45 <elliott> file operations done by Linux programs run under NetBSD will look in this
06:46:46 <elliott> directory first. So, if a Linux program opens, for example, /etc/passwd,
06:46:48 <elliott> NetBSD will first try to open /emul/linux/etc/passwd"
06:48:06 <catseye> i forked it because it could not would not run happily on dfly at all. my improvements did not help
06:48:53 <catseye> then it was all, like, that graphics buffer device, on linux. which was like, no.
06:49:42 <elliott> it's like /dev/dsp for graphics!
06:50:05 <pikhq> Wow. Battlestar Galactica 1980. The writing staff was trying to kill it.
06:50:06 <elliott> catseye: remember this for me: /emul/linux kthx
06:50:22 <elliott> catseye: also: netbsd-current! DO IT
06:50:51 <pikhq> They actually tried to kill the show.
06:51:05 <pikhq> Because it sucked.
06:53:19 <elliott> catseye: Hey cool, NetBSD doesn't need symlinks from libraries to more specific versions; the dynamic linker handles that itself.
06:54:13 <elliott> pikhq: what the hell is "DLL Jump" in ldd output? from http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi/man?compat_linux+8+NetBSD-current
06:54:22 <elliott> libXt.so.3 (DLL Jump 3.1) => /usr/X11/lib/libXt.so.3.1.0
06:54:22 <elliott> libX11.so.3 (DLL Jump 3.1) => /usr/X11/lib/libX11.so.3.1.0
06:54:22 <elliott> libc.so.4 (DLL Jump 4.5pl26) => /lib/libc.so.4.6.29
06:54:25 <catseye> i followed freebsd-current for a while, so i don't see why i couldn't do netbsd-current, but, dear lord. it will not make this disused laptop happy.
06:54:25 <pikhq> elliott: That's so much nicer than ldconfig making the symlinks.
06:54:38 <elliott> pikhq: otoh, the manpage might be lying and it might have links anyway :)
06:55:31 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ssh ehird@localhost -p 9292
06:55:32 <elliott> Last login: Sat Oct 30 18:11:31 2010 from localhost
06:55:32 <elliott> NetBSD 5.0.2 (GENERIC) #1: Wed Oct 27 15:17:46 CDT 2010
06:55:32 <elliott> catseye$ ls /lib | grep libc
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06:55:40 <elliott> pikhq: Never mind, they have links anyway for some inexplicable reason.
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06:56:11 <catseye> i mean, it is certainly unusual
06:56:12 <elliott> catseye: not really, it'd be more awesome if the manpage was telling the truth and the dynamic linker figured it out itself
06:56:16 <elliott> so you only needed libc.so.12.164
06:56:52 <elliott> catseye: But you could just use my cached answer! of magiiiic
06:56:56 <elliott> They're all symlinks to the last one.
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06:57:07 <elliott> Which is not a symlink at all.
06:57:15 <elliott> It is a hardlink though. To itself.
06:57:23 <catseye> Yes. I'm not used to there being *two* numbers, is all.
06:57:32 <pikhq> elliott: That's probably to make the (non-dynamic) linker not complain.
06:57:48 <catseye> I'm not sure that the symlinks are (always) used, and/or what pikhq just said.
06:58:01 <elliott> catseye: First number is increased when ABI is broken, last number is increased when it's updated in any way.
06:58:18 <elliott> So in Linux, you have libc.so.5 moving to libc.so.6 being a distro maintainer's HELL.
06:58:30 <elliott> But libc.so.6.1 to libc.so.6.28934723978428934 is not that big a deal, it's just an upgrade.
06:58:34 <elliott> No need to relink programs.
06:58:48 <elliott> catseye: So, often, programs link to "libc.so.6", not any specific version.
06:58:55 <elliott> And they just get the latest one on the system.
06:59:08 <catseye> I don't remember FreeBSD doing this :)
06:59:11 <elliott> And apparently for the static linker or whatever, NetBSD still has symlinks to do this, despite the dynamic linker purportedly being smart enough to do it itself.
06:59:15 <elliott> catseye: It will. Probably.
06:59:27 <catseye> libc.so.6 was just libc.do.6 and that's what you get.
06:59:31 <pikhq> elliott: Well, Linux's dynamic linker is *smart enough* to do it itself.
06:59:41 <elliott> pikhq: Here, you're more of an authority; talk to catseye.
06:59:52 <elliott> catseye: It may simply be that they called the latest version that all the time, even though it had a more specific version.
07:00:36 <catseye> if it could be said to have a version at all
07:00:46 <elliott> catseye: THE CVS REVISION OMG
07:01:00 <pikhq> catseye: Actually, its version is 2.x.
07:01:12 <pikhq> catseye: The so version being 6 on x86 is for hysterical raisins.
07:01:16 <elliott> catseye: libc6 is LINUX wrongness.
07:01:28 <elliott> It's probably libc.so.42 on FreeBSD.
07:02:49 <catseye> wow installing all the distribution sets on a flash drive is not exactly fast
07:02:51 <elliott> pikhq: GNU have, since the start, controlled Linux and have thus been able to make it suck.
07:03:00 <pikhq> elliott: No, Linux Libc. libc.so.2 through libc.so.5 on Linux x86.
07:03:05 <elliott> pikhq: Linux 0.01? Yup, you link with glibc and use bash and gcc/libc.
07:03:12 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, yeah, linux libc was glibc.
07:03:26 <elliott> It was distributed with Linux gcc.
07:03:44 <pikhq> elliott: libc.so.1 and libc.so.6 were glibc. The others were a fork with a lot of nasty stuff...
07:03:54 <pikhq> Such as support for a.out dynamic linking.
07:03:57 <catseye> I wonder if I could speed this up by doing it on a HD partition, and then dd'ing it over. Well, I know I could.
07:03:59 <elliott> pikhq: they tracked glibc though didn't they?
07:04:00 <pikhq> You may now cry in a corner.
07:04:17 <elliott> pikhq: old libc 2s *were* distributed with gcc though
07:04:29 <pikhq> elliott: You'll note that they *broke ABI 4 times*.
07:04:49 <elliott> pikhq: libc 4 is still > libc 5 > glibc imo though :)
07:04:55 <elliott> pikhq: and it's still maintained!
07:05:01 <pikhq> In the same time period, glibc did not once break ABI.
07:05:18 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, but a.out dynamic linking. WHY
07:05:19 <elliott> pikhq: libc 4 hasn't broken ABI in quite a few years :)
07:05:26 <elliott> pikhq: And it's still maintained!
07:05:36 <pikhq> Do you have any idea how that works?
07:05:49 <elliott> pikhq: YOU'RE MEANT TO ASK ME WHO MAINTAINS LIBC 4
07:05:54 <elliott> AND ALSO WHERE TO GET THE LATEST RELEASE
07:05:57 <pikhq> elliott: I KNOW ITS YOUR MOTHER
07:05:58 <elliott> SO YOU CAN INSTALL IT ON ANYTHING
07:06:04 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/libc/
07:06:07 <elliott> pikhq: Latest release is 4.8.4.
07:06:43 <elliott> Oh wait, it was jump4?.tar, not jump?.tgz.
07:06:50 <pikhq> With a.out dynamic linking, each shared object has a hardcoded load address.
07:07:05 <pikhq> You may now murder people.
07:07:24 <elliott> pikhq: Technically libc 4 was last released in 2002, but the maintainer still uses it, so I'm sure you could get a new release with a lot of prodding.
07:07:31 <catseye> trying to process extent of fuckedupedness of this
07:07:37 <elliott> pikhq: By then everyone had been using glibc. For years.
07:07:48 <pikhq> elliott: 'Cept Debian.
07:07:56 <elliott> Debian was using dinosaurs.
07:08:18 <elliott> * Fix up strftime to properly deal with dates past 1999
07:08:25 <elliott> pikhq: libc4 was *made y2k compliant*.
07:08:39 <elliott> Sometime in 1998-1999. (single changelog entry for all such changes)
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07:10:44 <catseye> you could do the WindwOS thing and just not have a "system" C library.
07:11:15 <catseye> You want to come to this party, you bring your own booze, pal.
07:11:19 <elliott> catseye: well with static linking you *don't*
07:11:27 <elliott> you just have something called /lib/libc.a
07:11:33 <elliott> doesn't mean you have to link to it
07:11:57 <catseye> "you" being the developer, of course.
07:12:09 <elliott> catseye: don't ship /lib/libc.a
07:13:08 <elliott> [[LOGREADING ELLIOTT]] Write a VCS, foo.
07:13:17 <elliott> but it'd get so clogged up...
07:20:10 <catseye> 500M is a *bit* small; I'm up to 383M with just all the base dist sets. i'll see what weight my useful APPS add
07:20:41 <elliott> pikhq: it seems that parsons doesn't actually use sccs
07:20:44 <elliott> he just calls all vcses sccs
07:20:57 <catseye> in some sense that is just as entertaining
07:21:31 <catseye> (i'll have an orange coke. let's slap a bsd gpl on this thing and check it into the github sccs.)
07:22:13 <elliott> catseye: well "source code control system", it's pretty generic :)
07:22:18 <elliott> catseye: like "init", "c compiler", etc.
07:22:22 <elliott> all those old unix tools had generic names
07:22:25 <elliott> and that was a better time
07:22:32 <elliott> a time when we didn't give everything name
07:22:37 <elliott> they were just implementations of their functionality
07:22:50 <elliott> and we had no silly "distros" and crap
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07:35:52 <DrNinja> lighterweight than irssi I'll grant, but not exactly a pleasure to behold
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12:27:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> [[In the USA, the series premiered on 21 March 2010 with Attenborough's narration replaced by Oprah Winfrey reading from a different script tailored to American audiences.]]
12:45:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, how did they tailor the script for American audiences?
12:47:34 <olsner> remove all difficult words, repeat the rest to fill the gaps
12:50:24 <olsner> well, and just change the accent to american, I think that's a big deal
12:53:14 <fizzie> [[Some of the reviewers said that the script was re-written for her, and I can believe it. I can't believe Attenborough saying lines like "hunting crab seals is toooo much work!" Oprah narrates this thing as if she were reading a bedtime story to little kids and comes off as snarky and condescending. In the opening segment, she's discussing a fox chasing an ibex kid and it's basically like "heeeere comes the fox! UH OH!!"]] -- amazon.com review of the blu-ray r
12:56:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> 2% of people bought the Oprah version after looking at Attenborough's, and it's rated at 1½ starts.
13:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> Apparently, they did the same to another of his documentaries, but with Sigourney Weaver instead.
13:04:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> Seriously, who is it that thinks treating all viewers like small-minded idiots is a good idea?
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14:57:54 <Sgeo> I am starting to believe that there is no such thing as a browser not full of fail
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16:43:55 <Vorpal> And everything that doesn't work in lynx is of course full of fail.
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17:05:25 * catseye has connected to IRC from a liveboot NetBSD stick
17:05:35 <catseye> Sgeo: what you must do, of course, is write your own
17:06:23 <Sgeo> Able to use WebKit, Gecko, or .. the IE one as necessary
17:06:32 <Sgeo> Able to use extensions from any browser
17:06:50 <Sgeo> Can use GreaseMonkey scripts designed for any browser
17:07:51 <catseye> Vorpal: I'm browsing esolangs.org with links right now :) lynx is more of a classic though
17:08:31 <Vorpal> catseye, heh, how well does it work?
17:09:13 <catseye> Vorpal: it's not bad. renders the table on the main page surprisingly well
17:09:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, not the opera rendering engine?
17:09:59 <Sgeo> Vorpal, give me the money, and I'll include it too
17:10:26 <Vorpal> Sgeo, anyway I think you are referring to FireInternetBloatKitExplorer?
17:10:55 <Sgeo> And it will be designed to not be bloated!
17:10:56 <catseye> no one here ever mentions Dillo
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17:11:09 <Sgeo> What rendering engine does Dillo use? Its own?
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17:11:24 <Vorpal> catseye, well, elliott mentioned it sometimes iirc
17:11:35 <Sgeo> Can I use IE6's Trident if IE>6 is installed?
17:11:43 <catseye> It does not do Javascript, is the big thing
17:12:11 <Sgeo> So that businesses can use this browser in place of IE6
17:13:06 <catseye> i have no idea what Trident is
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17:13:36 <Sgeo> I _think_ it's the IE rendering engine
17:13:41 <Sgeo> If not, I did not mean Trident
17:14:34 <catseye> You can do a remote call to one of those we'll-render-it-in-IE-for-you services ;)
17:15:02 <catseye> i should see if i can run X
17:15:46 <Sgeo> Why does Trident like to make clicking sounds randomly?
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17:18:35 <catseye> Sgeo: you clicked on a link + lag
17:19:11 <Sgeo> But it happens when I don't click a link
17:20:13 <catseye> maybe it happens when javascript "clicks" on a link too
17:20:14 <fizzie> catseye: I mentioned Dillo just the other day!
17:20:23 <Sgeo> We are worms, we're the best/and we've come to win the war/we'll stay, we'll never run/stay until it's done
17:20:39 <catseye> Sgeo: actually i recall the clicking you're talking about.
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17:20:57 <fizzie> 15-10-2010 19:42:25 > fizzie: Dillo does native GTK widgets for you. :p
17:21:09 <catseye> SOMETHING in there thinks a page changed, therefore it goes "click".
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17:34:51 <elliott> 09:06:32 <Sgeo> Able to use extensions from any browser
17:35:04 <elliott> Sgeo has devolved into "I want an OS that can run programs from ANY OS!"
17:35:31 <elliott> cpressey: dillo is awesome! dillo is useless.
17:35:58 <elliott> dillo is inexplicably not in debian
17:36:33 <elliott> cpressey: wow they're adding css support!
17:39:44 <Gregor> Compromise. Dillo is awesomely useless.
17:41:17 <cpressey> elliott: There IS a pkgsrc package for it :)
17:41:23 <elliott> cpressey: but is it dillo 2?
17:41:34 <elliott> dillo 1 is lame and is fltk 1 (boring STABLE toolkit version) and no CSS
17:41:43 <elliott> dillo 2 is awesome and fltk 2 (MOVING TARGET WOO) and anti-aliasing and CSS
17:41:57 <cpressey> it's trying to install fltk2 for me so YES
17:42:01 <elliott> http://www.dillo.org/screenshots/gnu.zh.png
17:42:10 <elliott> http://www.dillo.org/screenshots/line-height.png
17:44:11 <fizzie> "Q: What happened to the dillorc preferences for colors? " "CSS happened! To set colors, --"
17:44:21 <fizzie> Heh, I like the "CSS happened!" bit.
17:47:05 <fizzie> Now YOU are awesomely useless too.
17:48:22 <cpressey> COmpletely! It will not browse my website because it is actual XHTML now.
17:49:05 <elliott> gcc -I.. -O2 -Wall -Wunused -I/usr/include/freetype2 -Wno-non-virtual-dtor fractals.o fracviewer.o ../lib/libfltk2_glut.a -L../lib -lfltk2 -lX11 -lXi -lXinerama -lXft -lpthread -lm -lXext -lsupc++ -o fractals
17:49:16 <elliott> Yes... that will absolutely suffice to compile an OpenGL program, I am sure.
17:50:08 <cpressey> It's like half a browser! Amazon.com looks SO AWESOME
17:51:08 <elliott> cpressey: "[In part because no one has implemented the CSS 'float' property yet. But besides that...]"
17:51:33 <elliott> cpressey: "Our policy is not to work around broken HTML." Looks like they never heard of Postel's Law.
17:51:34 <Gregor> Melodica + cat = insane cat 8-D
17:52:03 <cpressey> wow, conal elliott really wants a lot of books i would never go anywhere near
17:53:03 <cpressey> "if they give you lined paper, write sideways"?
17:53:40 <elliott> "If They Give You Lined Paper, Write Sideways is a book by Ishmael author Daniel Quinn. It is presented as a dialog between Quinn and a reader of his books, and is intended to answer the question "How do you do what you do?"
17:53:40 <elliott> The title is quite similar to a quotation attributed to Juan Ramón Jiménez (24 December 1881 – 29 May 1958) "If they give you ruled paper, write the other way." See."
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17:59:16 <Sgeo> Is Postel's Law the "liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you emit" thing/
17:59:20 <Sgeo> I've heard arguments against that
17:59:30 <Sgeo> That that's a part of the reason the web is screwed up
18:00:49 <elliott> The arguments are mostly based on misinterpretations. The web is screwed up for entirely different reasons and they are called Netscape and Microsoft in the 90s.
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18:19:06 <elliott> cpressey: "You can tell a link from plain content by the hand-shaped cursor." --Dillo
18:20:20 <elliott> it fails impressively at reddit
18:20:33 <elliott> m.reddit.com works great though!
18:22:28 <elliott> Sgeo: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/08/postels-law
18:22:30 <elliott> Sgeo: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/14/thought_experiment
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18:35:55 <elliott> cpressey: it seems that VICE isn't that free
18:35:59 <elliott> C64MEM: Error - Couldn't load kernal ROM `kernal'.
18:35:59 <elliott> Machine initialization failed.
18:36:04 <elliott> cpressey: guess debian strips out the ... questionable bits
18:36:16 <elliott> This package does not contain the various ROM images needed to actually use the
18:36:16 <elliott> emulators; they are available separately from other locations (see the
18:36:16 <elliott> README.ROMs file). A corporation in the Netherlands called Tulip holds the
18:36:16 <elliott> copyrights to the ROM images, and redistribution is not permitted, but VICE
18:38:21 <elliott> The ROM files in the `C128', `C64', `CBM-II', `DRIVES', `PET', `PLUS4'
18:38:21 <elliott> `PRINTER' and `VIC20' directories are Copyright C by Commodore
18:40:07 <elliott> hey Sgeo managed to make even the Worms theme lame
18:40:19 <Sgeo> elliott, those are the lyrics!
18:40:26 <elliott> you managed to make them lame
18:40:41 <elliott> admittedly it is a silly theme song.
18:41:53 <elliott> who doesn't run with /nologo anyway
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18:43:52 <Sgeo> and I looked at it one more time and I swear to God it said 2003-06-31.
18:44:06 <elliott> Sgeo: Shoo! Next post! There are two!
18:44:15 <Sgeo> I'm still reading this one!
18:46:23 <Sgeo> "Heres the thing: that wasnt a thought experiment; it all really happened."
18:51:36 <elliott> cpressey: lol @ petulant cursor
18:51:40 <elliott> cpressey: the border flashing hertz
18:52:11 <Sgeo> Searching for information on the fictitious drug Angelfire is near-impossible
18:52:14 <fizzie> There was something else wrong with the Debian/Ubuntu VICE, but I've forgotten what it was. Maybe it was just that they weren't tracking the latest version with any speed.
18:53:03 <elliott> "Double size, PAL emulation, scale 2x size" -- bliss!
18:53:11 <elliott> I love CRT-ish blurryemulations.
18:53:20 <elliott> fizzie: i think i'll just compile my own vice
18:53:51 <elliott> fizzie: oh, except the stock package doesn't have debian menu support. guh.
18:54:21 <fizzie> I compiled my own vice here, FWIW.
18:55:00 <fizzie> The GTK support it nowadays has is somewhat nice: the old menus and such were quite horrible.
18:55:12 <elliott> The menus are very big but GTK 2 here.
18:55:20 <elliott> Badly organised; both "Options" *and* "Settings".
18:55:28 <elliott> Took me ages to find the display settings.
18:56:01 <fizzie> I think "Options" and "Settings" are what used to be the right-click and... middle-click "context-sensitive" menus in 'regular' vice.
18:56:55 <elliott> fizzie: Any configure options I SHould know about, fwiw?
18:57:02 <elliott> --with-sdlsound use SDL sound system
18:57:14 <elliott> --disable-lame disable MP3 export with LAME
18:57:21 <elliott> If only every program let you --disable-lame. :)
18:57:31 <elliott> --enable-gnomeui enables GNOME UI support
18:57:34 <elliott> fizzie: That's the one, right?
19:02:40 <fizzie> --enable-ethernet if you want to run Contiki with networking in it.
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19:04:11 <pikhq> elliott: Hey, there is no technical reason a hypothetical OS couldn't run programs for any OS. It would just have the most ridiculous kernel ever, and it would rely on essentially perfect reverse engineering.
19:04:35 <elliott> pikhq: and it's still a stupid idea
19:04:42 <pikhq> As for running extensions for every *web browser*? Yeah, no fucking way.
19:05:02 <pikhq> elliott: Well, true. Beyond a certain point there's really no point in it at *all*.
19:05:03 <elliott> port XUL/javascript/CSS to gtk
19:05:16 <pikhq> (probably by the time you get Win32, Linux, OS X going)
19:05:18 <elliott> also: emulate the structure of other browsers' UIs somehow
19:06:53 <pikhq> Heck, I doubt you could run both Firefox and Seamonkey extensions at once.
19:07:08 <fizzie> Current Contiki site seems to focus only on their new embedded-systems OSery, but there's at least http://c64bbs.com/contiki/ where you can get a TFE-compatible C64 Contiki image.
19:08:34 <Sgeo> pikhq, hmm, why?
19:09:17 <elliott> <fizzie> Current Contiki site seems to focus only on their new embedded-systems OSery, but there's at least http://c64bbs.com/contiki/ where you can get a TFE-compatible C64 Contiki image.
19:09:20 <elliott> my. favourite. thing. ever
19:09:33 <elliott> Do I want C64 or C128? LOL C64 DUH
19:11:50 <pikhq> Sgeo: Extensions for XUL browsers depend very very heavily on the actual DOM tree of the browser UI.
19:12:19 <Sgeo> ...that would probably suck
19:12:28 <pikhq> ... No, you can't fucking *do* that.
19:12:37 <pikhq> Also, IE extensions would be even worse.
19:12:48 <Sgeo> I guess if it were faked, some extensions wouldn't work
19:12:56 <pikhq> They're DLLs. They rely on the actual explorer.exe's code.
19:13:24 <pikhq> The only thing you could possibly pull off is Chrome extensions, which are Javascript with some added API functions.
19:13:34 <pikhq> And even that would be annoying.
19:13:59 <Sgeo> What about Opera extensions?
19:14:14 <pikhq> I don't know how the Opera extension system works.
19:14:27 <cpressey> There's a squirrel that lives near my building that I see every so often. I can recognize it's the same squirrel because it has no tail. It is a constant reminder that, visually speaking anyway, squirrels are approximately 50% tail.
19:14:29 <pikhq> I'm going to guess, though, that you don't want to do that.
19:15:07 <elliott> fizzie: VICE uses the fancy http://www.pepto.de/projects/colorvic/ palette, rigt?
19:16:56 <fizzie> Well, it has a couple of alternatives.
19:16:58 <fizzie> c64hq.vpl c64s.vpl ccs64.vpl default.vpl frodo.vpl godot.vpl pc64.vpl vice.vpl
19:17:13 <fizzie> The default could be that one.
19:17:50 <fizzie> The "vice.vpl" seems to match the numbers given at the end of that article.
19:21:01 <elliott> fizzie: vice isn't shown in the eternal colour set list, though. So I guess it's the non-external one.
19:21:05 <elliott> default is shown, as Default.
19:21:13 <elliott> It is not the default when external coloursets are disabled.
19:21:35 <fizzie> It's probably what it uses by default when not selecting "external".
19:22:11 <elliott> Uhh, what directory is that stuff in again? >__>
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19:23:14 <fizzie> The palette files? Those are in data/C64/ in the source set, not sure where (or if) it installs them.
19:23:38 <elliott> Palette: Loading palette `/usr/local/lib/vice/C64/default.vpl'.
19:24:09 <elliott> fizzie: How odd. It's entirely different to all the ones listed and the non-external one.
19:24:57 <fizzie> Yes; that's very strange.
19:25:14 <fizzie> Maybe it's what some version of vice used by default, and they updated the numbers inside the sources but not in that .vpl file.
19:25:31 <elliott> fizzie: Well, it looks *very different* from the default.
19:25:39 <elliott> We're talking "much darker BASIC screen" here.
19:26:38 <elliott> fizzie: As a distrustful man, I'm sticking to it.
19:26:45 <elliott> I don't see any article defending this NEW one hrmph hurh.
19:26:54 <fizzie> Still, it's not like the colors probably were very well calibrated on physical machines either.
19:27:08 <fizzie> "Since all of this was based on selecting different resistor values and resistance varied from chip lot to chip lot, there was variation from one Commodore 64 to another. It wasn't as bad as it could have been though, since all of the Chrominance selection was based on resistor ratios, which could be kept constant even if the actual resistor values varied. Luminance was more of a problem."
19:27:19 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, but, http://www.pepto.de/projects/colorvic/dk-ccs64.gif vs http://www.pepto.de/projects/colorvic/dk-pepto.gif.
19:27:27 <elliott> That's a pretty dramatic improvement.
19:28:03 <fizzie> Well, sure, the ccs64 is pretty... how should I say it, theoretical.
19:29:32 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, that Contiki page is just to download the webserver, I think.
19:30:03 <elliott> "Today Contiki is mostly known as an operating system for networked embedded systems. A few years ago, however, Contiki's primary claim to fame was its Commodore 64 port. With the help of JAC64, a Java-based C64 emulator developed by my colleague and fellow Contiki developer Joakim Eriksson, you can now experience the C64 port of Contiki 1.2-devel1 again, directly in your web browser! Click here to enjoy it - unfortunately without networking supp
19:30:22 <fizzie> Well, it builds a full contiki.dsk; it might be that it's mangled to run the webserver only, though.
19:30:39 <elliott> BREADBOX64 is a twitter client for the C64/128 which allows you to tweet from a real C64 and show your friends timeline. It uses Contiki, a very nice embedded OS, and the MMC Replay cartridge with the RR-Net add on for the physical connection to the net.
19:30:41 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that Factor is a bit... large
19:31:15 <Sgeo> There's a LOT to learn. I don't mind, but the general programming public...
19:31:24 <elliott> fizzie: http://120.146.162.194:8080/contiki.html Why not download Contiki from a C64?
19:31:49 <fizzie> "404 - file not found"
19:32:16 <cpressey> Yeahhhh Sgeo the "general programming public" uses Java and .NET; when you count all the "standard classes", are these any smaller?
19:32:27 <fizzie> elliott: On your link; but reloading the page made it appear. "Interesting."
19:32:34 <elliott> fizzie: Well, it's a C64. :)
19:32:45 <elliott> fizzie: On http://cbm8bit.com/contiki/ I ought to fill in my actual LAN IP and the like, right?
19:33:30 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, the vice networking just uses low-level packet-mangling stuff to fake it as if the C64 was a different machine, so you should stick in something as if you were adding a new machine in the network.
19:33:40 <cpressey> I am tempted to build VICE, but I've done that before and I could be building NetBSD-CURRENT instead!
19:33:47 <elliott> cpressey: That game is frickin' hard.
19:33:48 <fizzie> Disclaimer: I haven't actually ran the thing in vice.
19:33:50 <elliott> It might help if I had a joystick.
19:33:57 <fizzie> The site is also pretty slow! Maybe they should load-balance it to several C64s.
19:34:52 <elliott> fizzie: that downloaded contiki thing starts but no GUI or anything
19:36:52 <elliott> fizzie: 1.2-devel1 starts the gui
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19:37:14 <elliott> fizzie: no joystick mouse support, wtf?!
19:38:25 <cpressey> elliott: is it? maybe i got used to it with the keyboard
19:38:37 <elliott> cpressey: well i went in circles i think
19:38:40 <elliott> and also was terrible at it
19:38:58 <elliott> cpressey: i never found one of the ... key whatevers!
19:39:33 <elliott> cpressey: yes, terribly large
19:40:39 <fizzie> VICE emulates the TFE thing, but I'm not sure what Contiki calls it.
19:40:47 <fizzie> I'm getting a "undefined reference to `libnet_write_link_layer'" from configure --enable-ethernet, unfortunately. Curious.
19:41:14 <fizzie> (There is libnet_init in -lnet, but not libnet_write_link_layer in -lnet.)
19:43:07 <elliott> http://dusted.dk/stuff/ide64/bignew/ethconfigclose.jpg hmm my screen is much duller than this
19:43:31 <elliott> hey, turning off smooth luminances smooths the gradient
19:45:58 <fizzie> Oh, the libnet_write_link_layer test is just optional; it decides whether to use libnet 1.0 or 1.1 by that. I just haven't done "make install", which might explain why I'm not seeing any changes.
19:46:35 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I don't think I ran "make" either. I just ./configure'd.
19:47:56 <elliott> cpressey: QUICK WHAT ASSEMBLER SHOULD I USE FOR THE C64
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19:48:49 <fizzie> For some unfathomable reason, I use cc65's assembler (ca65) as a standalone thing; but that's probably not such a great idea.
19:49:08 <cpressey> elliott: um. ON the C64, or cross-assembling TO the C64?
19:49:40 <elliott> cpressey: uh, to. i played with the c64 once and used an assembler in it. not. fun.
19:49:40 <cpressey> (note: first is too hardcore for me)
19:49:59 <cpressey> elliott: i use the Perl version of p65. also fairly unfathomably, except that it's easily portable
19:50:16 <elliott> cpressey: that site told me to use OPHIS instead
19:50:20 <elliott> which is like that but written in PYTHON
19:50:44 <fizzie> At least with ca65 you get to write linker scripts. :p
19:50:45 <cpressey> there is nothing wrong with the perl one thought
19:50:50 <elliott> unmaintained software or irritating python software?
19:50:55 <cpressey> well it has some shortcomings but nothing too major
19:51:10 <cpressey> like its label arithmetic is pretty limited
19:51:39 <cpressey> i should probably try the python version at some point
19:51:54 <elliott> cpressey: i just had the strangest perversion. I SHOULD WRITE A UNIX FOR THE COMMODORE 64
19:52:04 <cpressey> at the point where i discovered p65, the python version was no better and it seemed like development wasn't happing on it anyway
19:52:25 <elliott> cpressey: it sounds fun though right?!?!?!
19:54:14 <elliott> cpressey: i could multitask at, like, 10 HZ
19:54:21 <elliott> that is Hz but in capitals btw
19:54:33 <elliott> the 10 is also capitalised.
19:55:50 <cpressey> writing a Lisp for the C64, now THERE is a project.
19:55:59 <cpressey> Make it a Lisp OS for more fun!
19:56:01 <elliott> cpressey: or a FORTH! wait, that just sounds easy
19:56:17 <elliott> that just sounds ... easy ... and fun
19:56:57 <cpressey> well you *could* do lisp without gc but, yeah, no.
19:56:57 <elliott> cpressey: so uh can these assemblers output disk images or just .prgs?
19:57:26 <fizzie> Vice has a good command-line tool (c1541) for disk-imagery.
19:57:34 <cpressey> elliott: i typically output a .prg and have the overlying OS'es directory simulate a disk
19:57:46 <elliott> meh, forths don't need disks!
19:57:48 <fizzie> Well, "good" and "good". The syntax of it is pretty horrible.
19:58:21 <elliott> cpressey: is the kernal like the bios (you don't want to use it if you can help it, slow etc.) or like... uh... not that
19:58:22 <cpressey> elliott: (there is some tutorial-ish docs in my "ribos" project for how to build stuff with p65, fwiw)
19:58:37 <elliott> SRY IM USING "OPHIS" ITS WEBT 2
19:58:47 <elliott> cpressey: there were two possible answers
19:59:04 <elliott> any docs on how to reimplement its shit myself? :-)
19:59:11 <cpressey> "you don't want to use it" is... not always justified
19:59:46 <cpressey> what do you need it for? disk access? you can talk to the 1541 yourself
19:59:59 <elliott> i don't want to access disk if i can avoid it, ever :)
20:00:10 <cpressey> SO YOU ARE WRITING A CARTRIDGE OK
20:00:21 <cpressey> you basically never need to use the kernel
20:00:31 <elliott> *kernal! love that misspelling
20:00:36 <cpressey> and getting by without it is easier than getting by without BIOS when booting a PC :)
20:01:16 <elliott> ok my first program will switch it into that lowercase/uppercase mode
20:02:51 <cpressey> do you want me to give you hints?
20:03:12 <cpressey> also: there are two books that are invaluable
20:03:33 -!- FIZZIE64 has joined.
20:04:00 <FIZZIE64> this is not the most comfortable client evar.
20:04:24 <elliott> cpressey: hints are nice yes
20:04:34 <elliott> FIZZIE64: how did you get networking working?
20:04:39 <FIZZIE64> it also has some issues w.r.t. character case: my nick is lowercase here.
20:04:48 <elliott> wow it responds to CTCP VERSION
20:04:54 <elliott> FIZZIE64: but what network driver did you specify?
20:05:16 <fizzie> You don't need to use the configuration bit, though.
20:05:31 <fizzie> You can just use the directory browser, "execute" the TFE driver, then execute the DHCP client.
20:05:55 <fizzie> You'll want to have the Ethernet support enabled in VICE, of course.
20:06:17 <elliott> do i have to do anything else?
20:06:33 <fizzie> You have to enable it from Options/Ethernet emulation/Enable Ethernet.
20:06:37 <fizzie> And you need to run x64 as root.
20:06:41 <cpressey> elliott: the kernal handles the uppercase/lowercase "mode" you refer to, and the easy way to switch it is to output a certain control character, via the kernal.
20:06:47 <elliott> fizzie: which icon is tfe? :P
20:06:55 <fizzie> It's on the second page at least in my case.
20:07:07 <fizzie> "The Final Ethernet driver" or some-such.
20:07:38 <fizzie> Whoops, tried to say "/nick fizzie64" in hopes of getting a lowercase nick; it briefly said "not implemented" and dumped me back to C64 basic.
20:08:23 <elliott> fizzie: If I see no "Ethernet emulation", is that bad?
20:08:45 <fizzie> It at least sounds a bit suspicious; it should be under IDE64 emulation.
20:09:28 <elliott> is there some library i need?
20:09:48 <fizzie> libpcap-dev and libnet1-dev.
20:10:00 -!- FIZZIE64 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:10:02 <fizzie> The configure script won't really complain if it can't find them, it just silently ignores you in that case.
20:10:14 <fizzie> It's very user-friendly that way.
20:11:48 <fizzie> "Error loading program: "irc.prg": Out of memory"."
20:13:41 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/cont.png -- none of those look very non-essential to me. Although I'm not quite sure what "Program handler" does.
20:14:52 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, what's that GTK font?
20:14:58 <fizzie> But I *just* got the DHCP client runninated!
20:15:00 <elliott> Doesn't look like Ubuntu Sans...
20:15:08 <elliott> fizzie: Also, duude, turn on CRT emulation.
20:15:13 <fizzie> It *should* be Ubuntu Sans, I haven't touched any things.
20:15:24 <elliott> Oh, just aggressive hinting messing it up then :P
20:16:01 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, seriously -- what's the full path to ethernet settings on yours?
20:16:54 <fizzie> You mean, menu-wise in VICE, or in Contiki somehow, or what?
20:16:59 <fizzie> "Options/Ethernet emulation/Enable Ethernet" in that case.
20:17:06 <elliott> You said it was under IDE64 X_X
20:17:24 <fizzie> Yes, by which I meant it's the menu entry under that one in Options.
20:18:00 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: C64 IRCery mostly, I guess.
20:18:18 <elliott> Oh it's --enable-ethernet. I think I had --with-ethernet.
20:18:40 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:18:49 <elliott> fizzie: Is there an obvious place to check whether it decided I can has ethernet or not?
20:18:53 <elliott> configure spews out a lot.
20:20:03 <fizzie> #define VICE_USE_LIBNET_1_1 in src/config.h could be a good sign.
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20:22:02 <fizzie> I haven't managed to get the IRC client started after that one time, though. :p
20:22:36 <fizzie> Last time I did start the configuration thing first, even though I wrote a wrong driver name and got an error about that; maybe I'll try that way again.
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20:22:50 <fizzie> It's just that the thought of C64 doing DHCP is so funny.
20:23:30 <elliott> fizzie: c64 needs network booting
20:23:35 <fizzie> Or maybe I should re-fetch that .d64, in case it got corrupted by a crash; nowadays I get an error already in welcome.prg.
20:23:48 <elliott> fizzie: We're talking PXE64 here.
20:23:58 <cpressey> extracting the netbsd current sources into /usr/src oh boy oh boy
20:24:50 <fizzie> "The 2.1 version of the specification assigns architecture identifiers to six system types, including IA-64 and DEC Alpha. However, the specification only completely covers IA-32."
20:25:00 <fizzie> So it's not x86-only in theory, just in practice.
20:25:03 <elliott> Well, whatever, custom protocol then.
20:25:28 <elliott> fizzie: I have Ethernet now! Also: DUCKS!
20:26:19 <elliott> TFEARCH: ERROR opening adapter: 'eth0: You don't have permission to capture on that device (socket: Operation not permitted)'
20:26:23 <elliott> fizzie: I need to run it as *root8?
20:27:02 <elliott> fizzie: No, seriously, do I?
20:27:17 <cpressey> i bleev he said earlier you do
20:27:47 <cpressey> < fizzie> And you need to run x64 as root.
20:27:49 <cpressey> < fizzie> And you need to run x64 as root.
20:27:57 <elliott> cpressey: AND YOU NEED TO UXN IRJ5J39056J39045J9034J534905J90345J35J03UJ534905J90345JIOSWTJKPWE]P5JMWEROPJMIOWERJOAP
20:28:14 <elliott> c64 has driven me insane TOAST
20:28:54 <fizzie> Maybe you could arrange for the net-raw capability.
20:29:00 <elliott> fizzie: Sweet, root has their own VICE configuration.
20:29:11 <elliott> You neglected to tell me THAT :P
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20:29:35 <elliott> fizzie: I want RR-NET compatibility, right?
20:29:57 <fizzie> At least this Contiki 1.2 has the plain TFE driver.
20:30:09 <fizzie> It might have both, 'dunno.
20:30:22 <elliott> cpressey: why does the c64 even have an uppercase mode
20:30:26 <elliott> the fancy characters are useless :P
20:30:36 <cpressey> elliott: no they are totally cool
20:30:50 <fizzie> Also, used a fresh .d64, went through the configurations, ran irc.dsc: "Main CPU: JAM at $45D4. [Reset] [Hard Reset] [Monitor] [Continue]"
20:31:13 <elliott> fizzie: nondeterminism, gotta love it
20:31:43 <fizzie> Maybe I *need* to use the wrong driver name, then run the right driver manually, and that via the file browser (not directly with the 'run program' menu).
20:32:14 <cpressey> I like how half the character set is just the first half with every byte EOR $FF, apparently legacy from the blinking cursor implementation on the PET
20:32:39 <elliott> cpressey: btw the petulant cursor hurts my eyes
20:32:45 <cpressey> they could have just used something like extended background colour mode on the VIC and 64
20:34:30 <cpressey> haha netbsd current sources! ok now i have to read src/UPDATING
20:34:52 <elliott> cpressey: if this works, I am so going to abuse my powers to turn your machine into Debian/NetBSD. (actually not but that would be cool)
20:37:54 <elliott> fizzie: holy shit it seemingly worked
20:38:57 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, it always works on the first run, but never thereafter.
20:39:14 <fizzie> I'm not bitter or anything.
20:41:07 <elliott> Wow, that scrolling is slow.
20:42:03 <zzo38> Section 495 of TeX: The Program says that \relax will be inserted in something like "\ifvoid1\else...\fi" that would otherwise require something after the "1". I have tested this, it is correct. But I cannot find out what part of the code in that section causes it to do that!
20:42:08 <elliott> fizzie: So, uh, what's the *safe* way to join a channel?
20:42:17 <fizzie> "/join #esoteric" worked for me.
20:42:48 -!- ELLIOTT6502 has joined.
20:43:09 <fizzie> Out of superstitiousness, I'm trying the "write a wrong driver in the config screen" thing: but if it works, I'm going to be dismayed.
20:43:10 <ELLIOTT6502> always strange how even th emulated versions of old hardware inexplicabl drop keys every now and then.
20:43:48 <ELLIOTT6502> fizzie: all i did was boot it up, start the driver, dhcp then irc. however: i di have an ip addres, mask, dns server, gateway in th network configurtion f
20:44:03 <ELLIOTT6502> i configured i with the configurtion progam, not with the specific net configurton program.
20:44:09 <fizzie> Well, I'll see what happenses.
20:44:28 <ELLIOTT6502> tthat was from a whil ago, but it had remembered. when i dhcpd the addrss it used was i think the one ientered before.
20:44:47 <Gregor> ELLIOTT6502: Quite the obnoxious nick you have thar.
20:44:49 <ELLIOTT6502> and, uh, i lik how everything i writ is in uppercase here, mixed case in the input lne, nd loercase everywhere else.
20:45:01 <fizzie> Yes, now I get "Out of memory" again, after running the driver, DHCP (which worked okay) and irc.dsc.
20:45:26 <fizzie> Hey, can contiki use the REU?
20:46:21 <cpressey> Keyboard support in VICE seemed to vary for me. When I ran it on FreeBSD, it dropped keypresses. But WinVICE worked fine.
20:46:42 <ELLIOTT6502> yeah well it's contiki i t's aesom enough it can do wht th fuck it want with my keypresse i dont give a shit
20:47:08 <cpressey> But then, VICE doesn't do a lot of abstraction internally
20:47:39 <zzo38> The C64 is not proper ASCII, that is why it doesn't work.
20:48:19 <Gregor> zzo38: Amongst all the reasons why it may not work, that seems like about the least likely.
20:48:42 <elliott> cpressey: just, back to basic
20:49:01 <zzo38> It is why it doesn't work correctly, I mean. Not why it crashed.
20:49:07 <elliott> Gregor: it was actually because i input characters that evidently the irc client is not clever enough to convert or something
20:51:15 <Sgeo> My computer is not receiving power
20:51:18 <Sgeo> I don't know why
20:51:48 -!- ELLIOTT6502 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:51:54 -!- sbszulu has joined.
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20:53:17 <elliott> sbszulu: do you speak zului
20:54:08 <sbszulu> I am Zulu from here in South Africa.
20:54:46 <sbszulu> Why did you find it unexpected?
20:55:21 <elliott> sbszulu: hmm have you been here before?
20:57:07 <elliott> sbszulu: this is a channel about esoteric programming languages, btw.
20:57:12 <elliott> we get some people who don't know that
20:57:29 <elliott> fizzie: i am totally loading the contiki homepage on a c64. well not a real c64
20:58:13 <elliott> fizzie: woo dns doesn't work
20:58:15 <elliott> let's try google's servers!
20:59:38 <elliott> sbszulu: do you know our wiki?
20:59:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:00:06 <sbszulu> I've been looking at it since I joined.
21:01:18 <elliott> sbszulu: have you made any esolangs yet?
21:02:30 <sbszulu> Not yet. I'm looking forward to getting started with time.
21:06:26 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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21:07:48 <elliott> FireFly: ¬!£UJ())(||æłełæ³łł€
21:08:22 <FIZZIE64> this time i tried to get a lowercase nick by writing in uppercase but got an erroneous nickname message
21:09:15 <pikhq> Pity. Oh well; you're on IRC from a C64.
21:09:35 <elliott> FIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASH
21:09:36 <FIZZIE64> it's only a model. i mean, an emulator.
21:09:37 <elliott> FIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASH
21:09:40 <elliott> FIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFI
21:09:40 <elliott> ZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASHFIZZIE64: CRASH DAMMIT CRASH
21:10:12 <FIZZIE64> don't know about dns though, i used an ip for this irc session, so far haven't even tried dns.
21:10:55 <FIZZIE64> i would like to run this thing on, say, the c128 i have, but: no disk drive, no ethernet hardware.
21:10:56 -!- sbszulu has quit (Excess Flood).
21:11:44 <elliott> FIZZIE64: I wonder why disabling the new luminances in the VIC-II settings makes the middle gradient smooth?
21:11:51 <FIZZIE64> the c128 builds might not have the fancy desktop either.
21:11:58 -!- sbszulu has joined.
21:12:13 <elliott> FIZZIE64: does it even support the c128?
21:12:38 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:12:41 <FIZZIE64> there are some versions of contiki. dunno.
21:13:12 <FIZZIE64> it might even work in th c64 mode of the c128: it is pretty good when it comes to backward compat, i think.
21:14:17 <elliott> FIZZIE64: do you actually need a disk for contiki? wouldn't it fit on, uh
21:14:33 <elliott> i am a bit c64-workings-ignorant.
21:14:52 -!- Zuu has joined.
21:15:14 <FIZZIE64> i have a cable that might work: it can be used to have a computer pretending to be a disk drive.
21:15:24 <FIZZIE64> still, the networking thing i trickier.
21:15:34 <elliott> FIZZIE64: just implement a networking-over-fake-disk-cable thing
21:15:42 <elliott> communicate by writing and reading to odd filenames!
21:15:53 <FIZZIE64> maybe with a serial cable and slip: there's a slip drivr in contiki
21:15:53 <elliott> just a contiki driver and a linux program away
21:17:56 <FIZZIE64> it would still involve a rs232 interface between c64 user port - pc serial. but that's simpler than an ethernet thing.
21:17:59 <cpressey> dear people who write wrapper scripts: please don't document the meanings of the options solely in terms of the system you're wrapping. it kind of defeats the purpose. thanks, -chris
21:18:41 <FIZZIE64> cpressey: your line was too long for this client: it cuts of at "it kind of".
21:18:54 <fizzie> Shows up all proper here, though.
21:19:13 <elliott> cpressey: McSweeney's would publish that.
21:24:42 <elliott> Okay, C64 fans, this is your chance to tell me of all the things I ABSOLUTELY MUST do on it.
21:25:23 <elliott> FIZZIE64: Hey, does the mouse emulation work in Contiki?
21:26:03 <FIZZIE64> i haven't tried. in theory i think some versions should support the 1351 mouse.
21:26:26 <elliott> Hey, a demo written in Haskell: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=52995
21:26:54 <FIZZIE64> i did try enabling it in vice, but it only captured my cursor, that was all.
21:27:52 <FIZZIE64> googling contiki 1351 shows some contiki-2.x drivers, that's about all.
21:28:00 <elliott> contiki 2 appears to not have the gui or something
21:28:22 <FIZZIE64> seems so. a shame: it looks so nice.
21:28:37 <elliott> it wouldn't look nice on c64!
21:28:43 <coppro> elliott: did you find that article?
21:28:53 <elliott> coppro: not yet -- i'll keep looking, i swear :)
21:29:13 <elliott> coppro: it's a very good article so i really do want to find it
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21:37:12 <elliott> Unfortunately this is not quite as spectacular as I hoped.
21:39:15 <fizzie> Poke at 53280, you'll change the screen border color.
21:39:44 <elliott> fizzie: There's display hacks that involve poking it multiple times a redraw, right?
21:39:53 <elliott> cpressey's thing did something like that but with magic.
21:40:07 <fizzie> You can "open" up the borders; it's a fascinating read.
21:40:20 <Phantom_Hoover_> Integrating the circumference of a circle around a given axis should be its surface area, should it not?
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21:40:46 <elliott> fizzie: Can you do XOR in C64 BASIC?
21:41:13 <fizzie> http://www.unusedino.de/ec64/technical/misc/vic656x/vic656x.html 3.14.1 for screen border magic.
21:43:39 <fizzie> There's AND and OR operators.
21:44:00 <fizzie> Try "print (1 and 5)" vs. "print (1 or 5)".
21:44:22 <elliott> Oh fine, have it your way.
21:44:42 <elliott> 10 FOR I=10 TO 16 : POKE 53280,((PEEK(53280)+I)OR I)
21:45:11 <elliott> I guess I should have expected that.
21:45:17 <elliott> fizzie: It's gotta have modulo!
21:45:58 -!- catseye has joined.
21:46:04 <elliott> catseye: MODULO IN C64 BASIC, WHAT IS IT
21:46:21 <catseye> elliott: it is not anything
21:46:44 <elliott> <elliott> 10 FOR I=10 TO 16 : POKE 53280,((PEEK(53280)+I)OR I)
21:46:53 <elliott> and does indeed produce snazzy inter-frame effects!
21:47:37 <fizzie> You can compute X-(Y*INT(X/Y)) for a modulo, in case you don't mind waiting billions of cycles.
21:49:11 * elliott boggles that this is invalid syntax
21:49:19 <elliott> Do I need a goto in there or something?
21:49:51 <fizzie> Yeah, it's an IF-THEN statement, not some sort of IF-: statement.
21:49:55 <elliott> 20 FOR J=I TO 16 : POKE 53280,((PEEK(53280)+J) AND I)
21:50:05 <elliott> all i need is equally bad music
21:51:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: makes the border flicker all sorts of fun stuff
21:51:18 <elliott> multiple epilepsy-inducing colours per frame
21:51:35 <catseye> elliott: the two books I was referring to are the "Programmer's Reference Guide" and "Mapping the Commodore 64".
21:51:47 <elliott> catseye: are you on CURRENT now?
21:51:57 <elliott> fizzie: HAY CAN I STOP EXECUTING IT WITHOUT RESETTING (lawl)
21:52:27 <catseye> it's just a very soft reset though
21:52:57 <catseye> I don't recall what VICE maps those keys to exactly
21:52:59 * elliott looks up commodore keyboard :P
21:53:12 <catseye> Caps Lock+Backspace? maybe?
21:53:24 <catseye> (also depends on your keymapping of course)
21:53:33 <fizzie> elliott: A simple 'esc' key might work.
21:53:38 <fizzie> I think that's where VICE puts run/stop.
21:53:54 <elliott> fizzie can have my firstborn
21:53:54 <fizzie> It's a basic program, it's terminatable with any sort of reset.
21:54:13 <catseye> BASIC doesn't need a reset. Shows how long I've been not using BASIC!
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21:55:07 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: creed now thats totally subjective try them and see if they have an image in the same way
21:55:29 <catseye> so apparently the 'bind' distribution comes with EVERY RFC EVER
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21:56:37 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover_> Dear god, people actually *like* Garfield.
21:56:37 <elliott> * Phantom_Hoover_ shivers.
21:56:38 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover_> fungot, comment.
21:56:38 <elliott> * Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
21:56:38 <fungot> elliott: ( in various shapes and forms, e.g. counting the number of fnord very few albums/ v293/ bitwize/ 20051229.png
21:58:15 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover__: < fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: creed now thats totally subjective try them and see if they have an image in the same way
21:58:15 <fungot> catseye: i can't remember which one though ( scrol down)? tried toggling hardware/ software flow control on and off, etc.
22:00:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:01:38 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:02:05 <catseye> elliott: OK you must look up how to made bad SID music and do that
22:04:12 <fizzie> The BASIC programming manual shows how to make bas SID music in BASIC, for example.
22:04:34 <fizzie> There's even a "for I=1 to 250" do-nothing loop for timing.
22:05:22 <elliott> http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=30008 Ha ha, fuck you borders.
22:06:18 <fizzie> http://www.lemon64.com/manual/ 8.2 for an ugly HTMLization.
22:06:35 <fizzie> Though the Programmer's Guide is a lot better text indeed.
22:07:19 <fizzie> There's a "DOLL CRYING" sound effect there, for example.
22:08:10 <elliott> that looks WAY TOO COMPLICATED for the likes of ME
22:08:33 <elliott> catseye: dude how the fuck do you use befos
22:08:48 <elliott> catseye: when i jump to conway it's just a bunch of noise
22:08:54 <elliott> not the game of frikkin' live
22:10:04 <fizzie> The C128 basic has a SOUND statement for bad music, but I don't think the C64 had it.
22:10:27 <catseye> um so i'm cvs updating netbsd sources, right? it's got lua somewhere in it... i recognized the source files as it scrolled by
22:10:58 <catseye> fizzie: indeed, it did not
22:10:59 <elliott> catseye: HOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWERTYU
22:11:27 <fizzie> Oh, and the PLAY statement, which is what I meant.
22:11:34 <catseye> it's... you boot it, and you press keys
22:11:54 <catseye> i actually updated it recently to have a page with the key bindings listed on it
22:12:04 <catseye> why do you want to use befos?
22:12:36 <fizzie> C.f. http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/128_system_guide/sect-07c.htm#7.4.html HOW SIMPLE!
22:12:37 <elliott> http://catseye.tc/projects/befos/README i see the bindings
22:12:42 <elliott> catseye: 'cuz i ripped off its bootloader
22:12:46 <elliott> catseye: but seriously, how do you run programs?
22:12:48 <catseye> elliott: they may or may not be accurate
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22:13:24 <catseye> elliott: some key jumps to the start of the currently loaded page, treating it as it is a com file. that is pretty much all you get.
22:14:16 <elliott> catseye: i forget, what exactly is befunge about this again? :)
22:14:42 <catseye> elliott: there is supposed to be a befunge interpreter in there somewhere :) it never really got fully hooked up
22:15:00 <elliott> http://catseye.tc/projects/befos/src/inc/befkeys.inc hell yaeh >_<
22:15:09 <elliott> well let me tell you it's not that
22:16:03 <elliott> catseye: i like how life trashes the status line but not its colours :)
22:16:04 <catseye> that is pretty much all you get
22:16:12 <elliott> also: the seemingly inexplicable multiple characters used
22:17:20 <elliott> catseye: well that was a thoroughly demented experience
22:18:04 <catseye> it would make more sense there
22:20:47 <elliott> catseye: whoa, if i put cli before my bootloader the zeroes do different things
22:24:37 <elliott> Anyone know of any bootsectors that go into protected mode? :)
22:29:54 <elliott> olsner: WELL MINE'S GOING TO
22:30:03 <elliott> since it's absolutely tiny right now, why not?
22:30:24 <elliott> and it means i can write all of my kernel as 32-bit
22:37:47 <elliott> Can you put multiple instructions on one line in nasm? >_>
22:39:19 <fizzie> I don't think it has any "split a line" things, so maybe no.
22:40:14 <elliott> Aww man, the GDT is a world of pain.
22:40:31 <Gregor> !bf_txtgen calamari: People always thank me for the awesome BF text generator in EgoBot I obviously wrote 'cuz it's in EgoBot!
22:41:32 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:41:34 <calamari> it started off with much grander ambitions, but I suck at genetic programming
22:41:57 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
22:44:49 <Gregor> Also apparently it doesn't work right now :P
22:44:50 <Gregor> But imagine it was giving output.
22:45:09 <elliott> Mathnerd314: you should know i never stay on a project more than two days
22:45:21 <elliott> MUST MAKE GREATEST BOOTSECTOR EVER
22:45:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:46:18 <elliott> Mathnerd314: it views webpages, and can click links and submit forms
22:47:12 <elliott> Mathnerd314: well anyone who likes firefox would never like kayak anyway
22:48:26 <Sasha> for being a bloated load of crap
22:49:07 <Sasha> the fact that it regularly uses all my available memory
22:49:17 <Sasha> especially when it's running
22:49:17 <calamari> sounds like that browser might be pretty cool for a phone
22:49:22 <elliott> explain where firefox's bloat is ahahaahahaha
22:49:34 <elliott> an easier question to answer would be "explain where firefox's bloat isn't"
22:49:36 <elliott> the answer being "nowhere"
22:49:44 * Sasha high-fives elliott
22:49:59 <Sasha> what do you use, elliott?
22:49:59 <Sasha> If you say Internet Explorer, get the fuck out.
22:50:13 <calamari> although I assume it doesn't implement javascript and for some reason wikipedia decided to require javascript to view sections
22:50:14 <elliott> I would have to use Wine to use Internet Explorer and that would be a major feat.
22:50:39 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
22:51:06 * Sasha uses Chrome and hates himself for it
22:52:18 <elliott> i would hate to use midori on windows.
22:52:27 <Sgeo> Why, exactly, does Firefox allow its extensions to do so much?
22:52:38 <elliott> Sgeo: if it didn't you'd be asking "Why can't I get an extension to do X?"
22:52:48 <elliott> also, putting "exactly" after questions doesn't make them easier to answer
22:53:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: The Firefox extension model is both an advantage and a disadvantage.
22:53:24 <pikhq> Sgeo: On the one hand, it lets you completely redo the browser to your liking. On the other, it lets you do precisely that.
22:53:25 <elliott> i tried to use links2 -g a while back
22:54:55 <calamari> elliott: how does that compare to your browser?
22:55:17 <elliott> mine displays pages a lot more like real browsers, supports js and css fully, etc. :P
22:55:23 <elliott> otoh, it has no UI. links2 does
22:55:33 <elliott> (searching, "go to url"... all that useless stuff!)
22:55:40 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:55:54 <olsner> elliott: you wrote your own?
22:56:14 <calamari> so it's text mode, or there is no interface at all?
22:56:21 <elliott> but it's just a web page in a window
22:56:26 <elliott> you can click links and submit forms from there
22:56:36 <elliott> if you can get to it from google.com it works :)
22:56:55 <Sgeo> What rendering engine? Your own?
22:57:06 -!- elliott_ has joined.
22:57:20 <elliott_> links2 has set itself as my default browser
22:57:36 <Sgeo> Oh, you didn't write your own browser
22:57:40 <Sgeo> Unless you did
22:58:01 <Sgeo> Your own rendering engine?
22:58:19 <elliott_> Sgeo: no, although i've sort of being trying to create that impression for my own amusement
22:58:28 <elliott_> in reality, it was just webkit + a scrollbar
22:58:56 <calamari> but yeah, links2 -g isn't the greatest but the other day when trapped outside X, it was so nice compared to console
22:58:56 * Sgeo feels like he asks the important questions now
22:59:42 <elliott_> which makes the accomplishment of working with gmail much less impressive :)
22:59:57 <elliott_> but hey, it's smaller than links2, if you ignore all the python, webkit and gtk libraries underneath
23:00:34 <Sgeo> Ok. Instead of full compatibility with all XUL-based browser extensions, how about compatibility with a subset that doesn't use whatever features touch the GUI significantly
23:00:47 <calamari> so what we (don't) need is a web browser written in an esolang
23:00:48 <elliott_> fungot: what did you do to cal153?
23:00:49 <fungot> elliott_: and now i regret mapping caps-lock to ctrl, or hit c-x b and type the code " int foo ( char x) return fnord
23:00:50 <Sgeo> And maybe some that do if we can predict exactly what the effect should be in our browser
23:00:57 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:00:59 <elliott_> PSOX CAN DO THAT HRURURURRRRGHJ
23:01:21 -!- Zuu has joined.
23:01:25 <elliott_> WTF LINKS2 DOESN'T SUPPORT FLASH WORST BROWSER EVER I'M UNINSTALLING IT AND RENAMING MY KITTEN
23:01:56 <Sasha> if you're into Flash
23:01:56 <elliott_> <Sasha> I do not understand blatant sarcasm!
23:02:10 * Sasha understands sarcasm okay
23:02:17 <elliott_> calamari: i wonder if arachne compiles on linux
23:02:20 <calamari> does it even support javascript.. seems link it was elinks that did
23:02:26 <elliott_> "It primarily runs on DOS based operating systems, but includes builds for Linux as well"
23:02:47 <elliott_> hope it supports framebuffer :)
23:02:50 <calamari> I used that browser once with a dos tcpip stack when my dad refused to run windows
23:02:58 <Sgeo> At what point is Windows no longer DOS-based? Win9x, or WinME?
23:03:30 <calamari> nt was around even in the 3.1 days iirc
23:03:48 <elliott_> After more than 8 years since v1.66b, it's finally here......
23:03:48 <elliott_> Arachne v1.93 for Linux (complete install package for svgalib)"
23:04:08 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_3.1
23:04:42 <elliott_> XP was when the advertised consumer edition of Windows became non-DOS based
23:04:45 <elliott_> being the first consumer NT OS
23:06:22 <catseye> the rumors of svgalib's demise are greatly exaggerated
23:06:28 <Sgeo> What was wrong with NT from a consumer standpoint?
23:06:37 <Sgeo> What about aalib?
23:06:57 <elliott_> Why is red not the colour you see when you die?
23:07:00 <Sgeo> elliott_, those questions have answers.
23:07:03 <elliott_> Why is my keyboard not made of jelly?
23:07:28 <elliott_> has anyone ever gone into protected mode using assembly before?
23:07:33 <Sgeo> Why does a bear not sh!t out the pope?
23:07:51 <catseye> < elliott> Anyone know of any bootsectors that go into protected mode? :)
23:08:21 -!- sbszulu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:08:24 <catseye> better do it after you'r done with using BIOS calls, I think
23:08:26 <elliott_> catseye: I MAY BE TRYING TO WRITE ONE OK
23:08:32 <elliott_> catseye: yeah i am done with bios calls at that point
23:08:39 <elliott_> catseye: i've loaded the kernel and would normally jump there
23:08:46 <elliott_> but i'm thinkin', i've got space, why not set up the gdt first?
23:08:48 <Sgeo> ElliottOS is actually going forward?
23:08:57 <elliott_> and arrange so that KERNEL_SEGMENT:0 is in the code part of the gdt
23:09:09 <elliott_> it's like elliottos but at least 50 times less ambitious
23:09:13 -!- sbszulu has joined.
23:09:48 <elliott_> catseye: basically what's gonna happen is that instead of "t!" meaning "loaded, time to jump", "t" will mean "loaded" and "!" will mean "in protected mode, time to jump" :)
23:10:01 <elliott_> catseye: hmm, which actually means that i'll be jumping to another part of the boot sector, which puts the ! there
23:10:05 <elliott_> catseye: and *then* jumping to the kernel
23:10:15 <elliott_> I just want some tips on setting up a gdt table in asm without going insane :)
23:10:47 <olsner> I think you but some bytes in memory and set a register to point to it
23:11:19 <elliott_> olsner: i knew that part :) and LGDT too
23:11:29 <elliott_> then you set the low bit of cr0
23:11:36 <elliott_> then you jump into the code segment
23:11:42 <elliott_> it's more the bytes in memory i need some help with
23:11:58 <elliott_> all the examples of gdts i've seen have nice C structures, and then an awful c function that packs the values in a perverse way
23:12:08 <elliott_> i *could* run through the c code and print out the result, but... bleh
23:12:23 <fizzie> Well, LGDT is "Load Global Descriptor Table register", so it's still a register.
23:14:30 <fizzie> Well, you know, the segment descriptors have a very simple layout: http://zem.fi/~fis/segdesc.png
23:15:23 <fizzie> Don't you just love it how they've interlaced the base address and limit together like that.
23:16:34 <elliott_> fizzie: "Supposedly" it should be ~omg this simple~ to get a flat 4 gig address space:
23:16:35 <elliott_> GDT[0] = {.base=0, .limit=0, .type=0}; // Selector 0x00 cannot be used
23:16:35 <elliott_> GDT[1] = {.base=0, .limit=0xffffffff, .type=0x9A}; // Selector 0x08 will be our code
23:16:35 <elliott_> GDT[2] = {.base=0, .limit=0xffffffff, .type=0x92}; // Selector 0x10 will be our data
23:16:35 <elliott_> GDT[3] = {.base=&myTss, .limit=sizeof(myTss), .type=0x89}; // You can use LTR(0x18)
23:16:45 <elliott_> But, uhh, then it has an awful C function for packing that.
23:17:21 <calamari> looks like javascript was removed from links2 in 2007 :(
23:17:56 * Sasha uses Chrome with a no-script-like addon
23:17:56 -!- Behold has joined.
23:18:07 <olsner> elliott_: found some stuff: http://gist.github.com/657234
23:18:44 <catseye> < elliott_> has anyone ever gone into protected mode using assembly before?
23:18:56 <elliott_> catseye: i.e. no C code to build the gdt
23:19:10 -!- sbszulu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:19:19 <olsner> elliott_: actually, the "struc" is completely unused afaict :D
23:20:47 <Sgeo> Sasha, Chrome has its own no-script-like feature
23:20:54 <Sgeo> You don't need an addon
23:21:26 <elliott_> Sgeo: noscript also lets you add things to a whitelist without going into preferences etc.
23:21:37 <elliott_> olsner: still, though, it packs things itself
23:21:43 <olsner> so it's just the define_descriptor that expands to dw/db and makes constant data of it, then the rest of the code just refers to it where it got loaded by the boot sector
23:21:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:21:50 <Sgeo> elliott_, so does Chrome's feature
23:22:11 <olsner> dunno if that's shorter or longer than the shortest code for writing it into memory
23:22:25 <elliott_> olsner: it's just that i'm in a bootsector, and i already have floppy reading and screen output code, so i don't have space for packing and other silly things :)
23:22:36 <Sgeo> Do not allow any site to run Javascript
23:22:42 <Sgeo> Then go to a site that uses Javascript
23:22:48 <Sgeo> You'll see a thingy in the address bar
23:22:50 <elliott_> olsner: i *could* load the gdt from sector 2 of the floppy but no :)
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23:23:43 <elliott_> olsner: yeah my current bootloader, sans the loads of zeroes after it and the bootable header, is 71 bytes
23:23:54 <elliott_> last two bytes have to be the bootable header
23:24:20 <olsner> yeah, you need like 30 bytes for the constant data in this program, I think
23:24:21 <fizzie> olsner: The struc is not only unused, it's mostly just misleading: part of the segment limit (the top four bits) is in the field it calls "access" -- the f in those 0xcf values in the macro invocation -- and the macros RX_ACCESS and RW_ACCESS, despite their name, actually go in the "flags" field.
23:25:12 <olsner> yes, as I remember it I did - but obviously the struct definition is borrowed from somewhere, the macro might be too
23:25:19 <Sgeo> False documentation should be a capital offense.
23:25:25 * Sgeo proceeds to give himself a lethal injection
23:25:31 <elliott_> olsner: give me all rights to use it and license it however i want etc.? :P
23:25:45 <elliott_> i'll put ; thanks olsner in :P
23:26:02 <elliott_> ; thanks to cpressey and olsner
23:26:02 <elliott_> ; without whom i would have had to actually learn how to do this myself
23:26:38 <elliott_> olsner: that align 4 is vaguely worrying
23:27:02 <elliott_> if i want to align it i should have the right number of instructions MYSELF!
23:27:40 <olsner> elliott_: go ahead and use that if you want, just don't complain if it doesn't work :)
23:27:54 <fizzie> olsner: Or, to fix my previous statement: parts of the segment limit are in the struc field "granularity"; I got confused because the struc calls the two fields "access, granularity" while the macro comments call them "flags, access"; I like it how they use the same word "access" for two different places there.
23:29:00 <elliott_> olsner: what is that access field?
23:29:09 <Ilari> IIRC, To get limit of FFFF FFFF, you need to set all limit bits to 1 and also set the granularity bit.
23:29:13 <fizzie> Anyway, it's not really a complicated thing at all: just bits in fields. You would have gotten the format from either the Intel or the AMD docs.
23:29:27 <elliott_> fizzie: i know but the gdtr stuff sorta broke my brain. i'm new to this!
23:29:39 <olsner> elliott_: magic constant, see the ia32 docs :D
23:29:45 <fizzie> 0xcf sets four top bits of limit to 1, and the granularity and 32-bit operand size bits.
23:30:02 <elliott_> db 0xCF ; access^Wcargo cult magic number!
23:30:26 <fizzie> "G" and "D/B" as well as "SegmentLimit 19-16" in http://zem.fi/~fis/segdesc.png
23:30:45 <Ilari> CF as byte 6 means Granularity Default/big, bits 28-31 of limit are 1111.
23:31:04 <olsner> I wonder what I meant by "Type", and arbitrarily calling 1010 "cs" and 0010 "ds", but that would be various read/write/execute bits I suppose
23:31:52 * elliott_ decides to ignore the idt forn ow
23:32:30 <elliott_> wait... i actually have no idea what the offset is
23:32:37 <catseye> see this is why i like the idea of unreal mode way better
23:32:53 <elliott_> catseye: i do too, except, i like protected mode since you can rearrange memory but at the same time
23:32:58 <elliott_> would totally like unreal mode
23:33:17 <elliott_> "To enable unreal mode without using any undocumented features of the CPU, the program has to enter protected mode, locate a flat descriptor in the GDT or LDT or create such, load some of the data segment registers with the respective protected mode "selector", then switch back to real mode."
23:33:25 <fizzie> catseye: Except that in unreal mode you need to build a segment descrip... gah.
23:33:29 <Sgeo> Also not Easter
23:33:52 <elliott_> olsner: hey your gdtr/gdt_end labels are the SAME
23:33:54 <catseye> fizzie: well yeah, but you don't really have to know what it *means*
23:33:57 <elliott_> i'm going to TAKE ADVANTAGE of THAT
23:34:12 * Sgeo is PLUS FIVE INSIGHTFUL
23:34:17 <fizzie> catseye: As shown here, you don't really have to know what it *means* either, as long as you can steal someone else's flat-memory-mode descriptor values.
23:34:18 <Sgeo> </blatant-lies>
23:34:20 <olsner> elliott_: that's... the address where the boot sector loads this code plus the offset within the code block where the gdt data starts, and looks like it's just a 32-bit absolute physical address
23:34:27 <elliott_> i.e. dd gdt rather than dd gdt+0x800
23:34:34 <elliott_> olsner: ok, well, in my case, i'm *in* the boot sector.
23:34:44 <olsner> so modify the offset :D
23:35:12 <elliott_> olsner: your code is inexplicably org 0
23:35:31 <elliott_> but no, since ... i have an org 0x7C00
23:36:05 <elliott_> olsner: the best thing about this is that i load the kernel to a segmenty address
23:36:10 <elliott_> which i'm going to have to translate to a flat address
23:36:20 <olsner> hmm, setting org correctly might make the assembler make the right offsets automatically, maybe
23:36:21 <Sgeo> "Microsoft based C++ programming is a big plus "
23:36:30 <Sgeo> I'm having trouble figuring out what they mean by this
23:36:44 <olsner> but you have different 16-bit and 32-bit addresses of course
23:36:50 <Sgeo> Do they mean C++/CLI? Do they mean Win32 APIs?
23:36:58 <elliott_> olsner: i'm not sure nasm lets you do bits 32 half-way through the file
23:37:02 <elliott_> olsner: even if it does, i'm not sure that's moral
23:37:04 <Sgeo> Do they mean it only has to compile on a Microsoft compiler?
23:37:11 <elliott_> maybe i should put it in a boot32.s file
23:38:00 <fizzie> You can switch the "bits" mode mid-file, and it's... well, I'm not sure about moral, but something like that, anyway.
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23:38:10 <elliott_> some registers need to be zero when you go into protected right?
23:38:12 <catseye> Sgeo: If the sentence contains the word "Microsoft", all bets are off
23:38:20 <elliott_> i'd quite like bx to persist to the other side
23:38:24 <olsner> even if it's immoral it's probably the only sane way to write it anyway
23:39:20 * Sgeo can't imagine why any sane person would use C++/CLI
23:39:52 <Sgeo> The evils of C++ syntax without the native compilation
23:41:11 <olsner> elliott_: almost certain that none of the registers change values, even the segment registers retain their old real-mode values and behaviour after all
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23:43:21 <elliott_> olsner: ooh, they retain their real mode behaviour? excellent, I can just do this in protected mode
23:44:07 <catseye> i was wondering if you were expecting the stack to magically translate the address for you, there
23:44:29 <olsner> well, the invisible internal counterpart of ds doesn't change, but in protected mode segment registers take an offset in the GDT rather than an offset in memory
23:44:33 <elliott_> wow now time to figure out what the hell that does!
23:44:57 <olsner> I wonder what happens if you read out the value after switching :)
23:45:06 <elliott_> before jumping into 32-bit code
23:45:10 <elliott_> since right now ds is vga memory :)
23:45:58 <olsner> no, setting ds to 16 before switching means ds has base 16*16, not that it gets loaded from gdt entry 2
23:46:27 <elliott_> olsner: so i should zero out ds then? >_<
23:46:51 <olsner> if you set ds to vga memory, then do nothing, ds will still point to vga memory
23:47:11 <elliott_> olsner: but not work properly as a segment register since stuff would think it's part of the gdt? ok.
23:48:04 <olsner> it will *work* and point to vga memory, it's the internal state that matters, you know... and that only changes when you explicitly set the segment register somehow
23:48:54 <fizzie> It will have a limit of 64k though, until you stick something else in there.
23:49:10 <olsner> and the same weird stuff happens to the code segment, as you notice the cpu is somehow running code after setting protect enable without having changed the code segment to a protected-mode one
23:49:27 <elliott_> definitely doesn't work in protected mode
23:49:37 <elliott_> in fact, it does seemingly nothing
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23:51:40 <fizzie> Isn't "mov word [bx], 0x0721" the same thing as "mov word [ds:bx], 0x0721"? Not like you need a segment override for ds. Not related to your current problem, of course.
23:52:04 <elliott_> well, yeah, i was just cargo-culting olsner saying [ds:gdtr] :)
23:52:31 <elliott_> olsner: fizzie: you lie! if i don't set ds to 0 before protecting, it crashes
23:52:37 <elliott_> even if i just have x: jmp x on the other side
23:53:09 <olsner> the protect enable crashes, or the jump into 32-bit code?
23:55:49 <elliott_> hmm, i have to do something with the a20 line at some point don't i? :P
23:55:50 <fizzie> I only know that when disabling protected mode, the internal segment registers retain their protected-mode age limits and bases until you load ds; maybe entering protected mode is more magical, then.
23:56:33 <Ilari> Protected mode checks the segments and freaks out as they are invalid?
23:56:37 <fizzie> You need to enable it, unless you want every other megabyte mirror its neighbour.
23:56:49 <elliott_> fizzie: before protected mode?
23:57:24 <elliott_> "Before enabling the A20 with any of the methods described below it is better to test whether the A20 address line was already enabled by the BIOS."
23:57:32 <elliott_> i wonder if i really have to do that, sounds boring :)
23:58:27 <catseye> you can live dangerously i suppose
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23:59:02 <fizzie> I guess you can do it after protected mode too as long as you stay in the first megabyte.
23:59:19 <olsner> not fixing a20 before using memory above the megabyte will be ... interesting :)